When Jesus Came to Harvard:Making Moral Choices To Export

Harvey Cox the author of "When Jesus came to Harvard" has taught his students about Gandhi, who never became a Christian but tried to base his life on the Sermon on the Mount, Martin Luther King who used nonviolent ways to make a difference for his people and the world.

The introductory chapters present Cox’s underlying convictions about the imagination as an indispensable component of moral reflection and as the link between Jesus and us. To explain the imagination as the bridge between Jesus then and there and ourselves here and now, he uses the musical image of a jazz riff. The jazz musician starts with the theme of a tune and then embellishes it without leaving the original tune completely behind. We might also call this process exercising the analogical imagination, or finding a way of acting that harmonizes with, but does not mimic, the stories and example of Jesus.

Come join us in the search of what would Jesus do if he was living as a human in this day and age.

I am reading "When Jesus Came to Harvard" now, and constantly finding things I would like to talk about with someone. This books is going to offer a wide range of questions for discussion, and Mr. Cox doesn't lay out easy solutions for his students or his readers. Put on your thinking cap, folks.

Babi

Got the book on Monday and will join you.

Yeah, Traude! You are ahead of me as I haven't even got the book yet or opened a page, but I will, I will!!! Always so much fun - a real pleasure - to get a new type of book that has been recommended and open the first page.

Do you read the book jacket first? Skim the pages? Look for pictures (hahahaha, my husband always did this!) Or just dig in!

Let's hope more people join us soon!

I found the Cox book riveting and refreshingly friendly to readers - as if reader and author are having a chat in front of a cozy fireplace - but I also have questions and know I'd learn a lot from sharing with others.

I'd like to join this discussion although my participation could only be once or twice a week. Is that alright?

Can anyone steer me into readable books on the Spiritual Exercises of St Francis of Loyola? The actual writings of St Francis, as Cox points out, is rather difficult to get through. I'm searching for commentary on it or a modern update to the exercises.

This will be a great discussion.

Marvelle

Just received my monthly SeniorNet update and found this Book Discussion.

Please count me in!!

As soon as I finish this post I'm going to price the book so I can be ready.

What a great looking book to read in a discussion. I'm sure it will be all the better for as many opinions and as much input as I'm sure we'll have on this one.

Alliemae

Traude, Marvelle and Alliemae, good to see all of you. Makes us happy. We now have enough so When Jesus canme to Harvad is a go. "Whee".

I will have the book and participate.Thanks Ella, Ginger and BaBi for bring it to us.

WELCOME MARVELLE AND ALLIEMAE!

We have a quorum I believe? Three people to discuss the book - WONDERFUL! It will be a treat - new thoughts and ideas always are; here is the first paragraph of the Introduction to the book - a teaser, if you will:

"The juxtapositon of the two nouns in the title of this book may seem odd. Harvard, although it was originally founded in 1636 as a school for the training of ministers, has long since shed its religious identity. For nearly a century now it has been a modern research university, often thought of as quite rich, somewhat snooty, and famously secular. Jesus, on the other hand, who lived two thousand years ago, is associated in most people's minds with simplicity, humility, and the spiritual life. He is the central figure in the world's largest religion. What does Nazareth in Galilee have to do with Cambridge, Massachusetts?"

The first chapter is titled "HE WAS THEN, WE ARE NOW."

We will soon be putting the Schedule for Discussion in the heading and other resources.

So happy to have you all here! Thank you for coming!

I think I joined this discussion but not sure so here I am again!

Good to see you here as welcome as the sun in the morning

You are breath of fresh air where you post. Just seen post from you in current events

. A big welcome to you.

Hi All,

I would love to read this book. My library owns one copy. If a way springs from somewhere for me to get the book, I would like to join the dicussion. I am keeping my toes crossed about getting the book. You guys can cross your fingers.

Already a good discussion group has formed. Hope even more will join. (Hi, Hats!)

Marvelle

Hi to everyone of you. What a great group and I'm looking forward to this discussion eagerly.

In Cox's Introduction he states his hope "for this book is that it will reach far beyond Harvard Yard and spark a much more inclusive exploration, that it will open a door for readers of all ages and all religious backgrounds, or none, to become co-searchers in this urgent quest."

It is certainly meeting that goal with our group here! Thank you all for your interest in our December offering in the BOOKS!

It will be interesting to see if Jesus is any luckier at finding accomodations at Harvard than he was at Bethlehem.

Well, well, well!!! Ella's back. How wonderful.

And what a distinguished group is coming together to discuss such a timely book. I think I'll hang around to see how Jesus fares in the classroom at Harvard. I did find the book in my local library branch, and opened it at random. And read this from the author after he engaged in the Spiritual Exercises mentioned by Marvelle:

'Within a few weeks I was carrying on regular imaginary conversations with Jesus....After a few months, however, I began to have some reservations.'

Really! What's going on down there at Harvard? Is the old Divinity School coming back to life?

Hahaha! Hats fingers crossed hoping you get the book as you would be a great asset to are insights of When Jesus came to Harvard. Let us know when we can uncross our fingers.

Good to see you here with your humor. You made me lol about hoping that Jesus has better accomodations at Harvard then in Bethlehem.

Hi Ginger and All,

You can uncross your fingers. One of the wonderful Seniornetters is going to give me a gift copy! I am so excited! Now I can uncross my toes too.

Whoopee Smiling all the while, uncrossing fingers.

I am so very happy you will be here. Please tell the Seniornetter that is sending you the book that I thank them also as the book is a bit pricey but belive that it will be worth it.

Hi Ginger,

It is an expensive book. I am very grateful. Your smile makes me happy.

Thanks, Jonathan, for the welcome, did we last meet in the ACLU discussion? Wasn't that a controversial one - hahahaaaa

That organization was mentioned yesterday in the movie - GOOD NIGHT AND GOOD LUCK - has anyone seen it? It's hard to believe, but true, that people used to smoke that much and inhale so heartily, and Murrow, the respected father of present day journalists or newscasters, was unbelievably courageous in taking on the Senate, the Army and CBS news biggies! I liked the black and white movie and according to reviews it was almost accurate.

Those were the days, can we call them good?

Mike Wallace, in his book "BETWEEN YOU AND ME" tells of a few similar crises in his career when he refused to apologize, thereby forcing the president of CBS to do so. Good book.

We can chat awhile, if you would like, but let's hold the book discussion in abeyance until the December starting date, okay?

Ella, I don't remember taking part in the ACLU discussion. Lively, was it? I'm sorry I missed it. I must have been taking a sabbatical.

But I do remember JOHN ADAMS, Gordon Liddy's WILL, the Civil War reenactments with Tony Horwitz, and FREEDOM AT MIDNIGHT. And here we meet up with Mahatma Gandhi again in Harvard! Another great peaceful man.

This may not be the place to recommend a different book, but it's one that might interest you. I've just barely started it and am enjoying it. It's a biography of John Marshall, that great SC Chief Justice, by Jean Edward Smith. Are you familiar with it?

You, Babi, and Ginger, make a great Triumvirate. I'm sure nothing like this has happened since the big one of Octavian, Antony, and Lepidus, of ancient Roman times...

Yes, Jonathan, I remember those discussions and many more and if any of you are new to SN, you can find our discussion of those books in the Archives listed on our page. Just click on them and scroll!

McCullough's book - JOHN ADAMS - particularly left memories as he so vividly described the main characters - I can picture them in my mind still!

I'll make a note of that book, Jonathan, even though I have about 6 books ahead of that one. I do like a good biography.

In the retirement home in which I am living at the present time we have started two book discussion groups - the popular PURPOSE-DRIVEN LIFE by Rick Warren (none of us has yet to discover our purpose!!!) and we just finished discussing McCullough's 1776 which Harold and I will be partnering in January.

You all are invited to another of McCullough's feast! It's a good one!

Is everyone tucking in for the winter to come? Or do we have any southerners among us who never have to worry about such things as ice and snow?

Ella I have never been able to get into McCullough I have no idea why.

Carolyn

Texas Gulf Coast here. We used to get a light snow once every seven years; now we don't even get that. We did get icy conditions a few years ago, with the result that my daughter slipped on icy steps and cracked her tail bone! Our 'get prepared' time is mostly for the heat of summer! Check out the air conditioning and the weather stripping to keep the heat outside.

Babi

Hi Carolyn. Viva la difference! It is getting more difficult for me to read fiction anymore - I don't know why either! Settling down with a good mystery used to be such a pleasure but they all seem to have the same plots anymore.

BABI - my sister lives in AZ, I know exactly what you are talking about although she has never had ice unless she went up into the moountains.

I've read about half of "Jesus (coming to) Harvard." It intriqued me because i have in the last two years heard some people's personal horror stories about graduate students at Harvard, stealing others' research, sabotaging work, back-stabbing gossip, etc. So, I was intrigued by Cox' statement that Harvard was doing good training in content, but they felt they were remiss in talking w/ their students about values!!!!.......jean

It sounds such a fabulous book but somehow I doubt I will find it here. Many American books of this genre just do not come in to the country. I will however read all the posts when the discussion begins and enjoy your comments.

Regarding cheating in Universities. I heard a doco about values today and it appears this type of disgraceful behaviour is not restricted to the US. It appears to be occurring in quite a few other countries around the globe.

Have the book -- please add me to the list.

The horror stories about the graduate students at Harvard are enough to make anyone weep, without even trying to imagine everything suggested by the 'etc'. Very likely cheating, bribery, blackmail and seduction. Think the worst, I feel, wherever there is the greatest incentive and the greatest wherewithal of means. I can see Jesus turning his back on Harvard in disgust. Or in great sorrow. And yet the undergraduates seemeed so open to his influence. What could have gone wrong?

An intriguing question, Jonathan. Maybe it's one we can pursue during the discussion. Did this course on moral choices have any effect on all those many students taking the course? Where would we find sources on that?

Babi

I'm going to start snipping articles out of the newspaper that make me think about morality and ethics, like the White House torture proposal. I think we'll find lots of examples from the news, including television.

Marvelle

Marvelle,

That's a great idea!

Did you hear that all 5000 employees of the White House are taking classes in "ethics?" I'd love to be a fly on the wall for those sessions......jean

Uh-huh, Mabel. And if there is any 'practicum' discussions, I'll bet they sweep the place for 'bugs' first!

Babi

KIDSAL - You are definitely on the list, in the discussion and one of us! WELCOME!!!

Hey, lots of ideas churning around in all of your heads and I'm getting anxious to start our discussion; meanwhile, MARVELLE, keep clipping away, it will be interesting to see where you lead us. Is there any hope of reform in values or ethics in politicians or businessmen - better still where does morality start in an individual? Is it in the home that children first learn right from wrong? Is it too late by the time they get to college when ambition and hormones are raging?

And we need to ask (although I doubt there are any answers) why these students are flocking to this Professor's class? Is it an easy credit? Something to discuss at their late night beer bashes?

And as BABI mentioned, did this class affect these students in any way (probably, another question to which there is no answer)?

I think near the end of his book Cox took an informal - very informal - survey of former students asking that same question, Did the class he offered affect the students in any way?

And boy, would I too love being a fly on the wall during the White House ethics training. Would like to know what was presented and how it was presented (if anything like the Harvard classes) and how it all was received.

Marvelle

Count me in on this discussion. I am half-way through the book and am really enjoying it. A lot of food for thought. Some of the things Cox says reminds me of Mathew Fox's book "Original Blessing" in which he also mentions the use of the imagination in spiritual reflection.

This is the kind of book you read slowly and think about.

And finding many things to discuss. So this should be a good discussion. Count me in and if I have the time, I will be here. I haven't read all of the posts yet but will try later today.

WELCOME DENJER AND ANN!

What a great group we're going to be! Thanks so much for your interest and enthusiasm!

WELCOME Denjer and Ann.

It's me again....on the book bandwagon. Again..! Only this time, I will NOT promise to participate in the coming discussion.

Fascinated with the book? ABSOLUTELY. Nevertheless, I promise nothing, except to be faithful as a seeker, searcher and lurker. I may not post another single time.

I am the world's worst when it comes to getting excited about the new book...I race online, read the reviews, and order right away. Yes, I have already passed that phase this time.

The book (books) have arrived....I have even ordered several for Christmas gifts as the perfect item for a certain group I lunch with, where we get into "these discussions" that go on for hours. I will begin my book immediately, and by the time you all start the discussion, no telling what stage I'll will have passed into. I do it every time.

Over and over, here is how it goes: I was so excited about Middlemarch. Studied Eliot at the University, one of my favorites, and loved the book. However, I had discarded it (to a Library) along with a ton of books during several moves. So I ordered another book right away, I could hardly wait to discuss one of my favorite books...it arrived, I devoured it, again, long before the discussion started, and that was the end of that. These Discussions are great for the book business. LOL

The only one I confess that I have stuck with is Story of Civilization, and that is as a lurker. I cannot give it up, I have the books, read the posts, and rarely post a thing. Fascinating.

Book discussions are just not the way I read.....but you all are great, carry on, and I'll be back to see what you say about the book. I will not promise to write another word. But you have made an absolutely GREAT SELECTION. I only wish we could all sit in on one of Cox's classes.

(Excuse me, I have some reading to do.)

Sun

I hope you do decide to do some posting, Sun. I think you would have some fine observations to make. If you're like me, the posts themselves can get me stirred up and eager to respond, pro or con.

Babi

Hellow Sun. We look forward to hearing more from you. I too now have the book, so by golly, there will be two of us here from our Seniors Net Texas /community Board. Sun is one of the DL's on the Texas board.

I'm leaving town for a few days over Thanksgiving, is everyone ready for the Big Bird Day? Jonathan, I know you celebrate a somewhat similar holiday do you not? Different day perhaps?

What are you reading? I just finished Caspar Weinberger's "CHAIN OF COMMAND" - a thriller, it was all right. I had to read it as our book discussion group here is meeting on the lst to discuss it. Perhaps you will remember the author as the Secretary of Defense under President Ronald Reagan?

I did try to read "THE MARCH" by Doctorow but the violence portrayed - terrible stuff to read - got to me and I put it down; we see and read violence and death in the media and I choose not to read it for pleasure. Did the book win a reward of some kind recently?

I'll have all of your comments to look forward to when I come home so don't read ahead and forget about it (as Sunknow did, shame on you!) because it's going to be one of our greatest experiences on Seniornet - well, pardon my exaggeration just a bit! All of them are just wonderful to me.

Back to confess that I forgot to Subscribe....Uh-oh, I'm off on the wrong foot with THIS crowd.....haha

Babi - and Jonathan - thanks for the invite to return. I'm having a hard time finding time to read over the holiday, but I imagine everyone has the same problem. I'll "get my nose out of the book", but first got to get into it. We've had company since last I was here, and more tomorrow, and well....you know the story.

Harold - yes, indeed, another Texan here. In fact, does my memory serve me well? Isn't Babi from the Texas Coast....am I right?

Now, Ella - I didn't forget the book discussion, but this time, I sure did forget to subscribe, didn't I? (See above...LOL).

I'm curious, what kind of writer is Casper Weinberger? Pretty good? I do remember him, of course, but I have not read the book. You say it's a thriller, does it seem to be all fiction, or maybe based on some fact?

Yes, Ella, this discussion will be one of the greatest on SNet, partly because you are here.....You always do a great job.

(I may even sneak back in here just to see what you're saying....later on).

Happy Thanksgiving.

Sun

Correct, SUN. A small town Southeast of Houston called Deer Park. Whereabouts in Texas are you? (I have long suspected there is another Seniornetter in Deer Park, simply because someone is always checking out the books we're discussing here.)

Babi;)

Babi, Isn't Deer Park on the Houston Ship Channel near the San Jacinto Battle Field and the site of the WW I, II Battleship Texas? Also I seem to remember a San Jacinto Inn that served the best stuffed (with crab) shrimp. I do hope the Deer Park air is better today than it was the last time I was there (about 1970. It was the many petro-chemical plants that was a real air pollution problem

You nailed it, HAROLD. There is much less pollution now that stricter air controls are in place. Occasionally a bad odor will creep across the town, but it is brief and infrequent, thank goodness. I moved here about 9 yrs. ago, and found it to be a small, pleasant, friendly town. Even the mayor/city manager offices are ready to listen, and willing to act to help a citizen with a problem.

The San Jacinto Inn is still in operation. Stop by there again the next time you're in the area. In fact, let me know and I'll buy you lunch.

Babi

Hi Marvelle,

I wanted to say thank you very much for my gift copy of 'When Jesus Came to Harvard.' It is very much appreciated it. I think your email address has been removed. Hope you don't mind me thanking you here.

Will start tomorrow.

Just found this discussion--have been out of town for awhile. But the book sounds intriguing, and if I can get a copy quickly, maybeI'll try to join you.

GOOD MORNING EVERYONE. IT'S HARVEY COX'S FIRST DAY OF CLASS AT HARVARD AND IT WILL BE INTERESTING, DON'T YOU THINK?

Grace, we hope you can join us, we'll save you a seat in the back row.

Babi and Ginger, my co-discussion leaders, will be here shortly to add their opening remarks, but personally I want to start by stipulating that I am no scholar, certainly not a religious scholar, but am here to learn from Professor Cox and from all of you.

On behalf of all of the participants here, I want to thank Marvelle for her gift to Hats; what a wonderful beginning to the cheerful Christmas season. I know from experience that Hats adds much to any discussion and we are grateful.

What one sentence struck you in the Introduction to the book? Can you expound on one idea?

Mine was this sentence and I have been pondering it today: “What is the relationship, if any, between moral reasoning, moral conviction and just plain moral courage.” (p.3) A few examples come to mind – Truman’s dropping of the atomic bomb, our saturated bombing of Dresden during WWII, General Sherman’s devastating march to the sea in the Civil War – all decisions made by leaders who believed it was the “right” thing to do – this mass destruction to avoid future killing.

I might add that today the torture of a few suspected terrorists to save the lives of the many victims is being debated.

No doubt all elements of reasoning, conviction and moral courage went into these decisions but who is to decide what is morally right?

I read recently that civilian casualties of war have increased dramatically in our lifetime; from 1900-1950 civilians constituted roughly 40% of all war-related casualties. By the 1960’s that percentage had risen to 63 and by the 1980’s to 74%:

But I’m rambling. Cox states that “tolerance …….is a widely accepted virtue in America” but he argues that “tolerance pushes us from insisting on the right to decide to considering what is the right thing to decide.”

There lies the essence of the problem.

The thrust of this book, as I see it, is that we can learn from the parables of Jesus’ life.

I see a revival of religion in my area, huge new churches being built (of course, this is not to say I know what effect the lovely buildings are having on their congregations). Cox has several causes (and effects) of this resurgence. Do you agree with any of his premises?

We can all agree, I believe, with Cox as he says “We need a fresher and wider conversation about religion and moral choices and how the two relate.” Amen, and that is what we will discuss in the coming weeks.

What are your thoughts this morning?

I found the amount of interest shown in Cox's class was proof that most people are looking for and need a moral compass in the modern world. I can't imagine a class more interesting or lively than one taught at Harvard on the life of Jesus.

I recall reading a book many years ago on the world's religions and was struck by how much they all had in common rather than their differences. I've always found it hard to believe that we seem to put so much emphasis on the differences.

They were becoming experts on facts but novices on values.

It's true. In order to prepare young people for society, schools focus on facts and dates. There is the desperate need to cram all the facts in the brain before the coming test date. Unfortunately, the facts remain in the cranium only long enough for the student to pick up pen and paper and start writing answers, hopefully the right answers.

Even this task becomes too hard. There are students cheating. Students taking some sort of drug to remain awake extra hours to study. Then, after it is all said and done, reporters walk down the street and ask, supposedly, easy questions about history, politics, geography or current events, and people can not answer. There is a giggle, a look at a friend and a muttered wrong answer.

So, along with a lack of morals, there is also a lack of facts. Obviously, it's too hard to expect excellent results on both counts, morals and facts. There is only so much time in the classroom. That means one or the other needs more focus in the classrooms.

Here are my feelings. If strong morals are taught, the students will have a reason to learn the facts. Without morals, why should the student learn facts? I won't need facts. I will choose my lifestyle no matter what it does or doesn't do to my neighbor.

If you notice, I disagree a little bit with the author. I am not even sure that enough students are "experts" in facts.

Memorizing doesn't teach us anything.

About morals being taught, I think that individual morals should come from home while morals of example should just be all around our students. Teaching about a certain spiritual person and what he may have meant by his teachings comes later for all of us. As we reason about Jesus and what Harvey Cox seems to get from the parables, I'm hoping that we all learn something new. In fact, I think that I already have, just from reading this book. I looking at the world of Jesus with a different eye.

It's good to be underway. Hi to everyone, and doesn't it take some kind of moral courage to participate in a discussion of this sort. Offering opinions on what's right and what's wrong. Like Prof Cox's students we do want to do the right thing, don't we? Or have we left that problem behind at our age?! Is it only left to us, as seniors, to shake our heads over the moral confusion out there? Or shrug it off. After all, Jesus often seems to say, why worry about it.

And that brings me to the sentence in the introduction that I found noteworthy:

'His life is sometimes described as the most important single moral influence in history, but the actual nature of that influence is frequently difficult to discern.'p13

Is it surprising, then, to read that Prof Cox seemed reluctant to get involved in the Harvard plan to offer a course in moral decision making. As it turned out, 'Jesus and the moral life' was only one of several courses considering the thoughts of great ethicists. I get the impression that Cox would like the reader to consider the secular aspect of Jesus' teaching. The secular needn't be devoid of morals. Some seculars are more moral than some religiously inclined. Perhaps it's on the convictions and courage score where they would get low marks.

I noticed a letter to the editor in a college newspaper the other day, from a student, an atheist, saddened about seeing atheism also considered as a faith, and being invited to join a campus association of all faiths. She denied, as an atheist, that her moral positions were faith-based, but why should that make her different from the others, the Christians, the Muslim, the Buddhists, etc, or less righteous. She claims that the professor leading the all-faiths group told her that he wouldn't, in a clutch, come to her for advice! So what was the professor looking for? Convictions? Authorities to cite? One does have to admire her courage. The club may have turned out to be a lions' den for her. No lions in our group, I trust.

In the last two years I have heard a few stories about the behavior of Harvard graduate students, all imply a void of positive human values -IMO

A young friend of mine who works in the area of primate research was working at a site that was directed by a H facutly member, therefore had sev'l Harvard undergrads/graduate students working w/ her. My friend had graduated from a highly credited, but small private college. She was treated appallingly by the Harvard students; they circulated viscious rumors about her, refused her help in her projects, let her know she was not "one of them" and sometimes ostricized her. Another friend was interviewing candidates for a faculty position at a college. One of the interviewees had been a doctoral candidate at H. She told him stories of some researchers sabotaging and/or stealing others work. My sense of these behaviors is that those students have been put in positions of high competitiveness, perhaps all their lives, pushed on by parents who want to pridefully say their child grad'd from H. and they MUST succeed, by any means. It's sad that the "smartest" people in our academic circles don't get how "dumb" it is to behave that way. That, of course, is my value system talking!

We have few places in our society where we can discuss religion/values and the differences that we as individuals have in those areas. We probably fear to disagree w/ the people in our churches, find it hard to discuss such issues w/ friends for fear we may not be friends when the discussion is over. This may be the most important factor in SN doing this discussion, that we can say, think, consider, change our minds, question religion/values on this site w/out those concerns....at least I'm looking forward to that happening for me.......jean

'What one sentence struck you in the Introduction to the book?'

When the students learned that Jesus didn't just hand out answers: "He demonstrated a way of approaching moral decisions that they [the students] could use themselves."

I thought, well, this could be good for me too. Not automatically, blindly doing something but choosing a decision, thinking about it, considering.

Hi, Hats! Glad you got the book.

Marvelle

"My sense of these behaviors is that those students have been put in positions of high competitiveness, perhaps all their lives, pushed on by parents who want to pridefully say their child grad'd from H. and they MUST succeed, by any means."

I think Mabel said something very important here. Much of the ruthlessness and lack of moral/ethical convictions in our young adults does seem to be based on this strongly ingrained imperative to succeed at any cost.

Still, Prof. Cox found a large number of students coming in to this class dissatisfied with inability to find answers to their own moral dilemmas. He was concerned with whether this was a subject that could be taught. "Was there a danger that we could turn out a generation of graduates who could debate moral issues with flair and proficiency but who lacked any real conviction about them?

What a challenge! To teach, not morals, but valid ways of looking for answers to moral questions. Help in making personal decisions. I suspect this is going to be a challenge to us as well.

Babi

"...it invites anyone who is equally dissatisfied with both moralistic fundamentalism and do-your-own-thing relativism to take a fresh look at a certain first-century rabbi....his life sometimes described as the most important single moral influence in history...."

When I was growing up, I was taught that to question is to dis-believe. Yet, if you never seek answers, how can you even pretend to understand? The more I was warned to not ask questions, the more positive I was that questions needed to be asked. This discussion may be the core answer, to try to understand the rabbi that started the whole thing.

I know people that shop for religion in a Mall of Christianity. One friend actually went from Baptist, to Catholic, to Church of Christ, to Seven Day Adventist, apparently without ever understanding whatever it was each of them believed. I love her dearly, but have no idea what she actually believes. I doubt if she knows herself.

Another woman kept encouraging me to check out her Web Site, and there it was...she had gone from Baptist to Lutheran to Episcopalian and now she is into Tao..something or the other. When I finally checked out the web page, it appears to be a place where you can buy canned sermons and it doesn't much matter what church hears the message.

Yes, maybe an honest discussion about the rabbi will help us understand that it is more about individual morals than about the massive congregations of assorted churches.

Sun

WOW! What a great beginning to our discussion, thank you all so much for your remarks!!!

As Sun just stated "an honest discussion about the rabbi" is what we all are hoping for in this discussion.

"to question is to dis-believe" - were many of you taught that in your home or church? Interesting, Sun!

As Babi and Sun stated "to succeed at any cost" is a very strong emotional drive, both in parents and children. Is it always detrimental? Isn't capitalism based on these premises? Hasn't it always been so?

Thanks, Hats, for your comments on values. Do you believe that the students of today lack morals? Did the students of yesterday make better decisions, moral choices? Who taught them? Who should teach them today? It is the "who" of this question that bothers me; obviously you believe that educators should, is that true?

However, Ann believes that individual morals should come from home, but my questions would be if they don't, as for examples, broken homes, alcoholic parents, etc. who then? Is it possible that a child has a conscience, knows right from wrong without it being taught?

And is it necessary that students should always learn morals from religious sources? As Jonathan reminds us the secular needn't be devoid of morals. Some seculars are more moral than some religiously inclined.

Give us a few examples, Jonathan. I'm sure that during the day I can come up with a few but my mind is blank at the moment.

It rang true for me when I read Denjer's statement that "we seem to put so much emphasis on the differences." Amen, that certainly has brought the world to the brink any number of times hasn't it?

Hi Marvelle! Me too, I need to learn how to make a good decision; gosh, I got a big one to make on my plate at the present time!

THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH FOR MAKING THIS A GOOD DAY, A GOOD DISCUSSION.

“JESUS WAS THEN, WE ARE NOW”

The “we” in the title to Chapter One is misleading – our own generation, our “we” is not the same as today’s “we” as Harvey Cox has stated.

“The songs I knew were not theirs, the movies they saw were the ones I avoided, the last rock group I appreciated was the Beatles.” We did not have genetic engineering, nuclear weapons, organ transplants, the Internet or morning-after pills.

Does it make a difference? Cox doesn’t think so - “students are not so different from the rest of us.” We all have difficulty in making the right choices, ethical choices, and most of us are trying to do the right thing, “in an age in which the old road maps don’t persuade everyone and sometimes don’t even persuade us.”

Who was Jesus? Can we all agree he existed? That he was a Palestinian Jew living in the land of the Romans and that he was a rabbi who taught the Torah, was tortured and hanged by crucifixion? Some Jewish people, of course, do not agree with all of these tenets; if any of you do not please do not hesitate to tell us.

However, can we all agree that Cox’s way of teaching, in the narrative style using Jesus’ parables is, or has been proven to be, an excellent tool?

Schools and homes, I think, should share in the teaching of values. I do think that in the past students made better choices. When we grew up, we never heard of shootouts in school. Now teachers find themselves on a battleground in the classroom. I have heard on the news teachers spend more time disciplining children than teaching a lesson plan.

Looking carefully at Harvey Cox's book is a wonderful tool for examining our own beliefs in new light--a necessity for any thoughtful person. Coming from a southern Protestant household, deeply committed to my faith, I find the perspectives fascinating.

Now my faith community is in a Unitarian congregation, made up of committed Christians, Jews, agnostics and athiests who share a common belief in deeply respecting the religious beliefs of other faiths, and pledging our lives to live by the teachings of all great religious faiths at their core--giving our lives to serve the neediest among us, and making life decisions based on the common good of all peoples and the earth we share.

I think this book gives us a chance to look again at our historical roots as Christians--or not--and to clear away accumulated debris that may have hidden the true messages of the teachings of Jesus.

should be his/her moral teacher. Family and religious institutions should provide (if the family wishes) a particular religious direction, but we are all responsible for and can guide the younger generations in moral choices and behavior.

As i re-read thru the first 8 pgs of the introduction, i was thinking that the Golden Rule seems like a good place to start for any moral decision-making, why are these students not finding a commonality there? And then Cox says "'live and let live' was their Golden Rule." I found it ironic that he used that phrase w/in that statement. Was that deliberate? What did he mean by "their Golden Rule?" How was he meaning the GR?

Do those of you who have a religious belief think that you base all your behavioral decisions on that belief, or is there a secular moral code that you could live by, even if you didn't believe?

I don't think there is a generation gap on basic moral behavior; i do think what is acceptable in one's personal life is boarder - especially in the sexual arena - but i don't think of the young people i know as being any less moral than our generation. They wouldn't steal, kill, harm another person, do any more of the big criminal things than the people i knew growing up. In fact, every young person in our family group is a church-goer, which i am now not.

It doesn't matter to me whether there was a real Jesus, the teachings attributed to him are what are important to me,because i think his teachings are the "right" way for idividuals and societies to behave. I don't go to church because the "religious" aspects don't make sense to me - virgin birth, resurrection,sin, satan, etc. I respect people who believe in those, but i just can't believe them.

Hello ELLA and all. Forgive me for joining a day late. Good to see old friends here: hello Jonathan.

To my mind, the choice and discussion of this book is perfect and just what is needed now . I hope the discussion will serve as a catalyst and start people thinking about their own value system. I know, the term has been repeated so often that it has become almost a cliché, which is too bad.

The truth is that all of us need a moral compass in our lives, perhaps more so in these turbulent times. Just as there are "many ways that lead to Rome", people have tried different avenues through the ages to attain greater knowledge about our existence, and if we are as tolerant as Prof. Cox claims we all are, it behooves us to at least LISTEN to what is being offered.

That then is our approach to this book, a distillation in book form of twenty plus years of teaching this particular course at Harvard Divinity School.

Prof. Cox taught at Harvard. Harvard. Not Yale. So.
Do you think the resonance of undergratudates from other schools of higher learning would have been different? Isn't their (our) yearning the same, whether they (we) are ivy or not ?
For me, one sentence stands out in this particular context :
"Religion tries to find meaning in the jumble of life." That sentence alone is inspired, IMHO.

You can find it in the last (uninihed) paragraph at the end of pg. 35, "I sympathize with Eco and Martel. But I cannot agree. ..." and continues to the end of the first paragraph on pg. 36 with "... at its deepest and most complex."

More later.

When I spoke about discipline and sometimes violence in the classroom, I had in mind the Columbine shooting. A sad situation I hate to name here. I think all parents, schoolteachers and the community churches or synagogues would have thought these children had values. Unfortunately, that was not the case. Then, all of a sudden one day the unthinkable happened.

Did the old method of teaching at home and school and church no longer work? I think, in a polite way, Harvey Cox is writing that something needs fixing and he is going to show us how and what to do.

This is what Harvey Cox, I believe, wants us to understand. Our children, students, are dying, starving because of a need that some refuse to recognize. It is easier to live in denial. Our children dress nicely, come from good homes, have extracurricular activities, good friends and neighbors, nice religious nuns, priests, preachers, rabbis, etc. This must mean we are safe.

If we are safe and our children so secure, why in the world are they so hungry, so needy, when they reach a university like Harvard. These kids are good kids. However, there is something they haven't found yet. They are not equipped to deal with "real" life. Sometimes, I still can't deal with "real" life.

I do believe in the Rabbi Jesus. I love the ideas in the book written by Harvey Cox. So far, the book is wonderful.

First I must say that although I had already read the first Chapter of the book back when it was first mentioned as a possible book discussion, when I glanced at it again, before making a comment, I found I could not stop reading it all over again. I like the way Cox writes.....he certainly causes you to think, and even on the second reading, I found additional seeds for thought.

I had ordered this book immediately, not only for myself, but for several others that I get into discussions with now and then, and emailed my Daughter a copy of Chapter One to her office, advising her that this would be a perfect book to give her boss for Christmas. She works for a Foundation, Consulting and advising Non-Profits. The other arm of the Foundation is Religious based. She immediately started scanning his book shelves to see if he already had the book. If not, he will have after Christmas. This is a very thoughtful book.

If Cox can teach and inspire us, just imagine the impact he had on the youth at Harvard.

When Cox talks about his students "quest for the historical Jesus" I confess that I spent some time in my earlier years searching the many books that were printed on the subject, too. Also, I frequently wonder about those missing years in the life of Jesus and what kind of man he would have been in later years.

In the discussion of the "two components bridging the gap between him and us," Cox reminded us first, that Jesus was a rabbi and teacher and "would not allow people to escape the responsibility of making their own decisions."

Second, the author realized that the "missing dimension in nearly all moral reflection is imagination.......we need the capacity to intuit what is important and what is not, to envision alternative possibilities."

So many times we are eager and willing to take credit for our correct decisions, and quickly blame someone or something else for the disastrous ones. Responsibility is sometimes a real burden. Also, the capacity to intuit what is important and what is not requires a wisdom that is often fleeting, just when we need it most.

Sun

This man, Jesus, brought or offered a message to the people of that time that they no longer had to wait for a messiah, that the reign of God was already available(and always had been!). Then he proceeded to show them by his examples and his parables just what he meant.

We all become thirsty at different times in our lives and go searching for a meaning to our lives and our beliefs. I remember learning about being born with the knowledge of the natural law, the ability to distinguish between right and wrong. So, it matters not, if we are religious or atheist, somewhere, in our souls?, we instinctively know the difference between the moral and immoral.

Ella, you mentioned that there are children who don't have good parents or who grow up in sad circumstances, where right and wrong is never diseminated, but I still believe that natural law is in each of us. Unfortuneately, many folks don't have the availability of the things that most of us seemed to have had when growing up.

Babi,

You mentioned the tripod of- family, church and school.A minor example here: In the 60's, having a career became more important than raising a family, our schools did away with the dress code and the churches became more modern and opened the windows, forgetting that three legged tripod of togetherness in raising a child. It does take a village, as many have often said.

I am interested here in what Jesus has to tell us about moral issues and decisions through his parables but also through his rabbinical teachings, which are still available to all of us. And, I believe that many of the different faiths, including the Tao, Buddhism, Islam, Christianity, Judism, all have something to tell us about being aware of needing each other and making this world our paradise.

What a cold wintry morning here in Ohio - BABI I wish I were in Texas with you; having just returned from AZ I'm ready to go back!

In reading over a few notes I made on the book Professor Cox believes that what motivates us all are stories and narratives - "accounts of situations in which choices have been made. They help us to become the people we want to be."

Strangers bleeding by the wayside, no-shows at your party, the sassy and rebellious son who disappoints his parents.

So many stories Jesus gave us, I'm not sure what we are to learn from them, are you? Are they relevant today?

There's a fragment of a song running through my head about parties - all I can think of at the moment is "I'll cry at my party if I want to." Who remembers the song from the 60's and why the crying?

As I am sitting here early this morning, I just read the headlines of our paper and I think to myself that our era is not much different than his time on earth. The headlines are:

Bombing kills 10 marines in Iraq
a Santa is quoted as saying 'Each year, I get a child who asks me to bring them a mom or a dad
2 bodies found off I-80 near Cleveland

There is a story behind each one of those headlines, very sad stories.

Did Jesus have any good stories to tell?

GRACE I am so curious about your "faith community." Please tell us more; where do you meet, do you have a pastor? And give us an example of "accumulated debris" that you or any of us need to clear away. Intriguing!

Which of Jesus' teaching has inspired you the most MABEL? I'm hungry and thirsty this morning for examples, for stories from all of you. I'm also just plain hungry, breakfast time! Hahahaaa

As TRAUDE poiinted out to us whether we are ivy league (and I might add whether we are young or old) or not our yearnings are all the same.

I recently moved into an independent living retirement home and I am amazed at the yearnings for love in some of our oldest residents. Three couples have paired off recently - one couple in their 90's!!!!

SUN, your comment - "the capacity to intuit what is important and what is not requires a wisdom that is often fleeting, just when we need it most" is so true for me. Where do we find the wisdom required to make a decision? I don't know. We stumble, we pick ourselves up, we keep going, trying to do better each time; often not sure.

We all become thirsty at different times in our lives and go searching for a meaning to our lives and our beliefs. Right on, Ann. Does the search ever end? Can we ever learn the meaning of our lives, can we learn from Jesus' stories?

Which one particular parable in these first chapters interests you the most?

THANK EACH ONE OF YOU FOR YOUR THOUGHTS! They are so fascinating to read and give us all something to think about during our day.

Later, Ella

Good morning, Ella! I see you also are up early. Did you sign up for your water class at the YMCA this morning? You can do it online! I love my computer! Its 17 degrees outside and here I am, warm and safe, and signing up for a water class and paying for it online. We are so spoiled!

My favorite parable?? Hmmmmm?? I don't have one. I think the example that Jesus sets when he speaks to the fallen Samaritan woman at the well is my favorite story because any of us could be that woman. You don't have to be a prostitute to fall! Hey, you don't even have to be a woman! haha! But the good Lord is always up there to welcome us back into the fold. Should we try to be this way? Letting our fallen selves know that God loves us, no matter what we do??

You also asked about the problems in the schools today? Well, one hears so many tales and doesn't know what to believe but about the teachers just trying to keep order in a room, I have heard that about the high schools. And, there are even movies that have been made speaking to that issue. Can't think of a title at this moment but I will search out one.

I remembered the things that stand out in my mind concerning our schools and students. Seems that I hear a great deal about children having ADD, which is "Attention Defecit Disorder" and how we are feeding them pills to help them calm down and focus and why this is happening so often today. We blame much of this on the food that children eat. Too many additives, they tell us. One friend tells of her ADD daughter being in a class where the students are "wired" and hopping all over the place while the distracted teacher is unable to get their attention long enough to teach them anything.

Often, we see articles about guns and other weapons being brought to school. Columbine is not the only troubled school in the US. Are we exposing our children to too much violence via the TV and movies?? I think so but haven't the slightest idea what to do about it. I do worry about the violent games that children have available to them on their Gameboys and game cubes plus the violent TV children's programs with scary monsters being brought to heel by more violence. What are we telling them about problem solving here?

Hi Everyone,

I have subscribed to this discussion and am looking forward to the time I can contribute. I am still waiting to get the book.

However, I am reading all of your posts and I must say that all of your ideas and thoughts have me conditioned to coming to this particular discussion every single morning to see what has been said.

What a wonderful group. Can't wait to be a contributing part of it!

Alliemae

No, I haven't yet, Ann (send me an email as to how I do it online). Perhaps I can avoid the cold, cold weather after all.

Were you surprised when you read that archaeologists had determined that the ancient city of Jerico never had walls? I was, as that story was in a Sunday school song we sang in my youth. Imaginative re-creation of the Israelite past, Cox tells us. What is this? Does learning such things enlighten us or defeat us?

My yearning in reading the book was for more education in religion and its history. I feel so inadequate in talking about such subjects but I also know that we can continue to learn throughout our lifetime and I pledge to myself that I will read more; hopefully learn more.

Back to breakfast!

Hi Alliemae! What a neat name, is there a story behind that? Welcome to our discussion, we have barely begun so you will plenty of time. Please click on the Schedule of the Discussion in the heading to see the chapters we are presently involved in.

Before I forget altogether I wanted to mention, in connection with Jesus being Jewish, that a friend and I attended a lecture by a Messianic Jewish Rabbi recently. His synagogue is in the small city in which I live and he taught us about the concepts of this group and enforced my belief, and others, that we are connected through God and our faith. It was an inspiring lecture.

Just a short note to let you know I'm with you. I'll probably mostly lurk, since I seem to be busier retired than I was when I was gainfully employed, but I didn't want you all to be surprised if I pop in with a comment now and then. I'm starting the new year reading the daily entries of a book called "The Book of Jewish Values - A Day-by-Day Guide to Ethical Living" by Rabbi Joseph Telushkin, and I think the discussion here will be a good companion to it.

This is an intriguing concept for a modern college course, although the inclusion of required religious courses for college in not exactly new even for secular orientated schools. I think this is (or was) common in schools having a religious affiliation at their origin. This was the case of my school, Trinity University in San Antonio, TX, a school of 19th century Presbyterian origin turned very secular by the mid 20th century. When I was there in 1950, six credit hours (2 courses) of required religion were the only remaining indication of its religious past. Normally this requirement would be satisfied in the freshman year with “Old Testament History, and New Testament History. In my case as a transfer student in my junior year, I took the Old Testament History, but for my second course, I was permitted to take Comparative Religious Thought a summary of the living religions. I think there are (or were) nine. At least that is all I am able to recollect now.

These courses, however, appear quite different from the Cox course as it is described in the early chapters. In my case the first course was a history course. It was an outline of Hebrew history and the development of the early Israel and Judea nations. It was History pure and simple. The textbook was largely interpretations of the history from modern interpretations of of the Old Testament and archaeology. The second course was study of each of the individual living religions, their major beliefs, history, similarities and differences

The Harvard course as described in the early chapters of our book, in contrast, is moral reasoning as taught by Jesus. Presumably the first four books of the New Testament is the principal text supplemented from ethics and philosophical sources. This course is certainly much different from the two courses I took; mine being principally religious history, the Cox course is much more the teaching of moral responsibility and "the relationship between moral reasoning, moral conviction, and just plain moral courage" (page 3).

Keep this book within easy reach, Gail. It sounds like a handy reference thing. It may well make it easier for some of us to appreciate Jesus as a moral influence. I find it surprising to read in the Cox book that we're not likely to get clear-cut answers from Jesus, to help us with specific moral dilemmas. But we will get stories to help us with our decisions. This should also quicken our imaginations to find meanings and options. I don't know if I can buy into this idea, but I'm eager to see where it takes us.

Cox seems to go to a lot of trouble in the first chapters to make Jesus and his teachings, and decision-making methods relevant to the problem at hand. To teach ethics in the halls of higher learning. Don't we remember when that became a real concern about 25 years ago, when the best and the brightest were letting the rest of us down with their sharp business practices and unethical professional practices. Remember the greedy eighties. And of course we were far enough along in the century to know that there were evil men amongst us. But I believe it was the Business Schools which started including courses in ethics.

What's more exasperating than to hear some evil doer caught in the act taking refuge in and exclaiming about the lack of moral guidelines in his job description. And can one believe it when one hears 'moral imbecility' used as a defence in a court of law. They hanged him because he was guilty of treason. The penalty seemed too harsh, his family thought, for someone who just didn't know any better. He was, after all, also a liar, a fraud, and a con man, committed motoring offences and jewel-thefts and gun-running, even bigamy.

Well I'm getting carried away here. At this point I'm confused. Is the book about Jesus, or about morals?

I think the book is about Jesus and morals. For me, it is difficult to separate the two, Jesus and morals. Jesus spent his life telling stories and parables. These parables and stories always had a moral. Whether Jesus discussed wine at a wedding, a pearl or catching a fish His stories had a moral or ethical reason for being told.

Over the years I have heard different stories and parables told by Jesus. I especially love the one about the woman who had a hemmorhaging disease. I think she had hemmorhaged for twelve years or so. She sees Jesus walking through a crowd, a really big crowd. She can not get too close to Him or she will become trampled by the feet of the crowd. She does get close enough to touch the hem of His robe.

Jesus knows He has been touched. The woman is healed just by touching His robe. No other exchange takes place. I love that story. It is one of my favorites.

Whoo,boy. Miss one day and look at all the posts. But now that I'm caught up....

SUN, I am another who was occasionally chided for questioning some teaching. Like you, I felt that questions were a valid way of opening up a way to a better understanding. Also, having read the Bible early on, before I had opportunity for regular church attendance, I sometimes found myself hearing doctrine that didn't necessarily fit scripture. So I learned to make a distinction between the doctrines of particular denominations and what the scriptures actually said.

ELLA, that "at any cost" had me raising my eyebrows. I should think there are very few things, if any, that should be pursued regardless of cost. In fact, one of the teachings of Jesus was to "consider the cost" before entering on a project. Right along side that we could add: "What shall it profit a man if he gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"

We all remember very well how different things were in our youth. Most young people tend to conform to the community standard, and I think that applies today as well. Unfortunately, the "community standard" of today, given our much larger 'community', has become pretty much a matter of 'anything goes'. Movies, tv, and books now present as normal, everyday conduct behavior that would have shocked our generation to the core.

MABEL, the new Golden Rule seems to be "live and let live'. Tolerance, as Cox points out, is greatly admired in todays thinking, and certainly there has been a great need to root out intolerance and all its crimes. But that alone isn't much help in deciding what one's own behavior ought to be.

Cox wrote of his students: "While they were hostile to know-it-all moral absolutism, they were equally frustated with the limp moral relativism they saw around them. They wanted something else."

Babi

I'm sorry Ella, Babi and Ginger. Ella, I thought you asked for our favorite, personal story from Jesus. Now I realized you wanted one from our chapters. Sorry. Please excuse.

Ann's Quote

"Often, we see articles about guns and other weapons being brought to school. Columbine is not the only troubled school in the US."

Ann, I definitely agree with you. That one school is hardly the only one where violence has occurred. I am sorry if I gave that impression.

I am saying sorry more than once today. It's just that you are my friends everyday. I see no reason to hurt any one of you. If I have done so, I will say sorry again. When giving examples, I need more caution.

Hey, that shows I need to put more of Jesus' parables and stories in action. So, I definitely need this book. I am far from being the most perfect or ethical person around. I just try everyday.

Ella - "stories from the first chapters?" Does that mean Chapter one and two, or the first ten chapters? I don't want to get carried away here.

Like a lot of you, I find myself wanting to respond to each persons remarks, and as long-winded as I get sometimes, that's not a good idea.

I'm tempted to ask if anyone knows which of the parables might have appeared in ALL of the Gospels? Some of them, a few, or most of them? Yes, I should go and do my own research, shouldn't I? Since we know some of the Gospels were not written until after Jesus died, and do not always agree on the facts....it brings into question something I grew up hearing.

"It's the Gospel Truth..!!" How many times did you hear that statement?

Sun

Altho we have had a few very publicized school tragedies, violence in public schools has actually been declining in the last 15 years. I know that seems strange after hearing of several incidences where students bro't guns to school and made the national news, but in places where guns and knives were more prevalent in the 70's and 80's, the violence and crime in schools has subsided significantly, primarily because of metal detectors and police officers in the schools. To keep that in perspective, I have a friend who went to school in the Bronx in the 40's, huge school, took up a whole city block and had 1000's of students. They had police in the halls then and there was a rape in the stairwell while she was going to school there. Since post WWII reformers have been saying we should have smaller schools where teachers know most of the students for a better education experience, but municipalities just keep bldg big and bigger schools. Is there a moral question in that scenario?......jean

JONATHAN, the book is about teaching students how to relate the teachings and ethics of Jesus to the current times.

I no longer have the book as I had to return it to the library, however I will follow the discussion as best I can from memory. I recall Cox pointing out that Jesus through his parables and teachings tried to point out that the final moral choices we make are our respondsibility. He did not preach to people. Through parables and stories he pointed them in the right direction.

I recall as a child and young adult wondering how all these stories I'd heard in church and sunday school applied to us today.

Hi Ella...thanks for the welcome.

I was named Alice Mae after my Nanna...

When I was in trouble or when someone wanted my attention immediately, I was Alice Mae!

Generally, I was called Allie.

When I was in 'good graces' I was AllieMae!!!

Thanks for asking. My oh my...this sure is a lively discussion...hopefully I'll have my book tomorrow if the snow stops here!

Alliemae

Hi again...Ella, your line comes, I think, from the line 'It's my party and I'll cry if I want to...' from "I'll Cry if I Want To" by Lesley Gore and I think it was from the 1960's.

I admit to some confusion in discussing this book – as Jonathan pointed out we need to ask ourselves what is the book about? And I agree with Hats that it is about Jesus and morals but that’s a very broad spectrum of ideas. Just as John has written in 21:24 (quoting from Chapter 3) “the whole world itself could not contain the books that would be written” about Jesus, what he did and said. So, perhaps, we should just stick to the stories told about Jesus that Cox gives us in the beginning of each chapter.

THE BALLAD OF THE BEGATS – I don’t want to go there, does anybody? Maybe Harold (nice to see you here, Harold!) can give us a little insight into Jesus’ genealogy as he is the only one confessing, so far, to have taken a history course in religion. Any thoughts on this chapter?

But wouldn’t you have enjoyed the classroom when Cox and his students were discussing the Virgin birth, and the circumstances surrounding God choosing Mary to be the mother? I’ve seen those same ads in our local papers for egg donors. When they first appeared I thought them rather scandalous but as so often happens in life, the more you see, the less importance it gains in your mind.

It takes a young mind to link those ads with the virgin birth of Jesus; however, Cox again reminds us that these stories about Jesus are to be discussed in terms of their relevancy in today’s world.

Didn’t you find the results of the investigation reached by the student in her term paper fascinating?

Materialism vs. moral reasoning? What better example can we give?

Why did God pick Mary to be the mother? She was definitely not a “ivy-league” and was poor and illiterate.

This is the season to celebrate the birth of Jesus; so often that reason is lost in preparation.. We are buried (if we allow ourselves to be) in materialistic concerns and I wonder how it all began and how it can be stopped.

What are your thoughts on the birth of Jesus?

I was looking at two of the examples Cox gives of problems in trying to apply the teachings of Jesus to today's moral problems.

P.15: "But were they really supposed to take Jesus' admonition literally, sell evrything they had, and give it to the homeless people in Harvard Square? Did I seriously expect them to "take no thought for the morrow", as Jesus taught, when I had assigned term papers and scheduled a final exam?"

Now here, I think, is where Cox's class would be helpful in studying these teachings. There are things that need to be explained before the 'moral' of the stories can be understood.

The first one, about selling all one has and giving it to the poor. That was spoken to a wealthy young man who came to Jesus wanting to know what he should do to be saved. The reply was a summary of the Ten Commandments, with a statement that if the young man did these things, he would be saved. The young man replies that he has done all these things since his youth. Obviously, he still feels something is lacking, ..or perhaps his question was insincere to begin with and he only wants to draw attention to how pious he was.

In any case, it was at this point that Jesus told him that if he wanted to be perfect, he should sell all he had, give it to the poor, and become one of his followers. The young man went away sad, because he was not prepared to do that. The admonition to 'sell everything and give the money away' was not advice for everybody. It was for a young man whose wealth was not making him happy and who, apparently, longed for something deeper than following the rules.

As for 'take no thought for tomorrow', I believe that has been tranalated more accurately as an admonition not to fret and worry over tomorrow. One should do those things which are appropriate in preparing for tomorrow, and let it go at that. Fretting and worrying are not helpful and can be detrimental, as we have all doubtless discovered.

The questions and problems are going to become much tougher, I know. But I can see how guidelines can be established to help us approach them.

Babi

There were 15 posts since I looked last, so I can't reply to each one in the proper sequence; forgive me.

Yes, the book is about Jesus and about making moral choices in our time, as indicated by the title and subtitle. Cox must have done an excellent job or his course would not have been popular for two decades.

Yes, the parables all had a moral. But some morals are baffling (we may not be there quite yet), and I find the fact that Cox deliberately refrained from giving his personal interpretation, when such doubts arose, frankly disappointing.
ELLA, BABI and GINGER, I apologize if I have jumped ahead of the assigned chapters.

As for "tolerance", I am not as optimistis as Cox is in this regard but won't take this any further.

Violence and war have been with us forever. The O.T. is full of warfare and battles amid perpetual yearning for peace. Perhaps there IS no such thing as peace (?) Violence is part of our lives right now.

May I say with respect: there's no doubt in my mind that the deafening fanfare of violence, evident even in cartoons (!), which has blanketed all media for some time, has (and has had) an undeniable influence on our society, especially our kids.
The motivating force is, of course, the profit element that governs every single aspect of our lives, whether we like it, are aware of, admit it, or not.

I have found the Introduction to the book on the Amazon.com page and have started reading it and already something has caught my eye.

On p. 5 of the Introduction it is written, Those who were so surprised (about the 'burgeoning enrollment' and interest in the subject matter of the course) had obviously misjudged both the mood of the current student generation and the changing temper of the times."

Before I retired I worked in a university Dept. of Environmental Science, Engineering and Policy for several years and had quite a lot of contact with the students. These students were very ethical and many of them new or 'renewed' Christians. During our discussions about why things were changing in this way the students explained that their experience had begun with their realization of 'stewardship' first of the planet, and then growing into themselves and their relationships with others and how they led their lives.

I just thought that correclation was interesting.

I'm going back to reading the Introduction now but am quite excited to read on into the book.

Alliemae

I'm a little confused along w/ Sun about how many chapters we are discussing at this time, the schedule says Ch 1-10, I'm at 3

- but, anyway, I like the next to the last paragraph on pg 22:

"......He(Jesus) realized that the missing dimension in nealy all moral reflection is imagination. ....we need reasoning to lead a moral life, but we need - even more- the capacity to intuit what is important and...to envision alternative possibilities, and to see beyond what sometimes appears to be an impasse. We need to apreciate not just how other people see things but how they feel about them and to do this our most potent resource is still the human imagination, awakened by compelling narratives." WOW! So true! We get so self-centered and make our lives so much more difficult by thinking that other people are wrong, bad, stupid, doing something TO us, being disagreeable, .....if they were just thinking like us, how much more simple life would be.......actually, if we would step back and try to discern where the other person's mind is, we might have a whole lot less stress in our lives.......jean

......jean

I'm going to give a link to "Tuchman's Law" that i provided to the Story of Civilization discussion and I'll tie it together w/ this discussion

http://www.indepthinfo.com/articles/tuchmans-law.shtml

As you can see Barbara Tuchman says things are given much importance if they get written about, and therefore their importance may get distorted.

In my U.S.History 102 classes: Civil War to the present, I have the students do oral histories w/ family members and acquaintances. I ask them to ask the oldest members of their families to tell them, if they know, how the student's family got to South Jersey. Some of the students learn stories of their families immigration that they had never heard before. I start assigning oral histories again when we get to the Depression and then when we get to WWII (one resourceful young woman knew nobody who had been in WWII, so she went to the VFW and talked to the men there and discovered they were fascinating and loved talking to her). Then when we get to the 60's i ask them to ask their parents, etc whether they participated in any of the social movements, or whether they participated or not, what did they think of them - i ask them to answer specific questions for each movement. The text books and media give the impression that everyone who was under 30 in the 60's was protesting, smoking pot, demonstrating, having free love, going to Viet Nam - a la Tuchman's Law. When they ask the people around them, what they were doing in the 60's they discover that the greatest percentage of people weren't doing any of those things even tho we talk a lot about those things in class and the importance of those movements and activities and since i'm a music buff, i bring in a lot of the protest/folk/rock and roll of the time, all of which supports Tuchman's Law about the distortion of what ordinary people were doing. On the other hand, they may find that someone in their family may have been active in one of the movements, but they had never heard that story before.

For many of them, it's the first time they ever heard any stories from their family members' history. Many of us think our lives have not been important enough to talk about and don't pass on stories. Interstingly enough, we are an inter-racial family and the African-American side of the family has in, the oral tradition of their culture, passed on many more stories than the WASP side had.

I said all that to support Cox' recommendation that we should be story-tellers, tell the younger people in our acquaintance what happened to us in our lives and how we handled it, whether it was a big or a small event. It teaches them that there are options and alternatives to the "one" thought they may have in there heads and maybe helps us all create a little imagination.....jean

There are many, many posts. I am behind in reading the posts. I also have a hard time remembering who said what in which post. Ella, I will give a try at answering your question. Maybe I can come back later and reply to the other posts after reading each one.

Anyway, I had to think and think about what the birth of Christ means to me. I should not have to think about the question. After all, we take the holiday every year. Usually, I am in such a frenzy to decorate, to make sure all family and friends get a gift and a card, to shop to bake. There is not time to calm down and think about the true meaning of the season.

This is my first year to slow down. I don't have the energy to hustle through the crowds. I think, in past years, hearing the music in the mall, seeing the store decorations, eating in the mall made me really feel in tune to the season.

Ella, I feel that the birth of Christ is about giving. After all, it is the date chosen to celebrate Christ's birth. To symbolize our recognition of Christ's birth, to put our belief in to practice we choose to give to one another.

Saturday, we went to a couple of stores. I happened to see two Christmas trees. Each tree was decorated with Christmas balls made out of paper. One tree had the names of children. The other tree displayed the names of senior adults.

On each ball the name or names of what the child or senior needs is listed. I thought, this is the reason for the season, giving. It feels even better to give to someone in need. Our community does this very well: firemen give toys to the children, coats are collected for needy children, the community kitchen feeds the homeless.

Ella, thank you for helping me to remember why I am shopping and why I enjoy the holidays.

No apology required as I was not insulted. I was just thinking of other schools where things like shootings did happen.

The church that my son's family attends has a tree in their entrance with the same type of balls on it. Its called the Giving Tree and I think that if you take a ball, you are promising to fulfill that person's wish. I'm not sure how they handle the donations that come in but it does give one time to think of others.

Ella,

I reread the chapter about the choosing of Mary and think its a beautiful story. Whether we would choose to sell our eggs for profit doesn't even come into it but this young student sees a revelance here and she does a super job of writing her paper and at the same time, she makes one think about the morality of selling parts of our bodies. I have no problem with any of these donor procedures as I think that God gave us a mind to use and if we come up with a way to save someone or to help a couple have children that is not harmful, why shouldn't we try. I also don't find any immorality in the procedures.

As to selling your organs or eggs, if you want to split hairs, maybe its not moralistic but just the way we are in today's world.

Sun

I,too, was raised in a church but have gone my own way. I seldom attend services except when my grans are involved. It seemed that the church got in the way of my faith.

Chapter 6 Will it be less confusing if we take our discussion of the book by chapter? I meant to put the Chapter number on my last post, but forgot to; however, Hats and Ann responded and thanks to both of you for your posts.

The season of giving - I was taught that God gave us his son, Jesus, but I was never sure as a child why this son of God had to suffer so on earth.

In reading over Chapter 6 Cox attempts to communicate to his students two precepts: (1) Jesus participated in the natural continuities of human life. (2) God yearns to share every aspect of human finitude - pain, joy, disappointment and mortality.

Cox attempts to weave the stories of Adam and Eve into the divine fatherhood of Jesus. Is he successful? What are your thoughts on this chapter?

Frankly, I found myself wishing Adam and Eve had never been dragged into this search to find moral guidance for today from the teachings of Jesus. Cox's purpose, as he says, is to "show that the chain of cause and effect that perpetuates our human enmeshment in evil can be broken."

He also writes: "We stil lhave on our hands the mess that previous generations of control seekers and we ourselves have created." Very true. Then he points to those "extraordinary messengers God sends to remind us that we are ot ultimately intended for the mess". He points out what we usually overlook or forget, that the prophets, saints, et al. were perfectly human. They got hungry, they got mad, they got frustrated and fed up. What most struck me, tho', is that they never entirely gave up the battle. As Cox wrote, "they do not seem to carry the mess with them, and they do not perpetuate it."

Now that's where I'd like to be! Wouldn't it be wonderful simply to be able to say, 'I didn't carry the mess with me, and I didn't perpetuate it'.

Babi

Yes, Ella, Please...let us know what Chapter we are discussion. Jumping around from one Chapter to another is confusing. One jumps ahead, and the next three posts refer to previous chapters...you know what I mean.

Things will flow much smoother with a bit of warning ahead that we are moving on to another Chapter.

We don't have to march in step, but at least in the same direction.

Thanks,

Sun

ANN, I am like both you and Sun when it comes to going my own way. I went to various churches growing up. Everything from Baptist to Luthern. I find now that I tend to take a little of this and a little of that from all the various demonations and use them for my own beliefs. I have always felt more spiritual in a forest or on the shores of a lake or ocean alone than I ever have in a church.

I am following this discussion, but will probably not be doing too much commenting on it. I just got back from the eye specialist. I have what he called "Cystoid macular edema (CME)". In two weeks I have to go back for a cortisone shot in the eye, but in the meantime I have a swelling in the retina of my left eye and everything is quite blurry.

BABI, I found the discussion on geneology quite interesting. I always found the begat parts of the Bible the most boring and wondered why they put them in there. Now I begine to see why.

...Adam and Eve are not prehistoric forebears. We have met them, and they are us. Their story is our story...

I have never thought of the story of Adam and Eve in this way. Harvey Cox puts the story of Adam and Eve in a looking glass or mirror. There I find a mirror image of myself. That means the Garden of Eden has a lot to do with me. The flaws in Adam and Eve are the same flaws within me. Oh boy, I feel my sense of denial kicking in.

This makes me see the importance of this story. It also helps me see why this story has lived through the centuries. It is another story with meaning. It is another story with practical purposes. It's not easy to choke down the fact that I would like to "to be like God." It almost feels blasphemous or like my mouth needs washing out with soap to even give thought to the idea. As a matter of fact, I am very uncomfortable thinking such a thought. If it's worded differently, I can handle the idea.

I think Babi mentioned it's that "control" thing that takes over our minds and hearts. It's like at times I wouldn't mind being the puppeteer and my family and friend the puppets and the whole world could dance on my stage.

I really didn't know Adam and Eve wanted "control." It's something to think about for a few days.

Denjer, I am sorry to hear about your eyes.

I think Harvey Cox is brilliant. After reading this book, if I don't give up, I will have a better portrait of my true self. Harvey Cox uses these Bible stories to shoot from the hip. To have morals I must not only not lie to others, but I must also tell the truth to myself. Face the true me who goes to bed with me at night, The one who might have pushed to the front of the line during the day or grabbed a fresher loaf of bread from another lady's hands. Why in the world would I do such a thing? I guess to be number one. It's all about being first unless someone teaches us differently.

We want our team, our tribe, our nation to be number one.

If I can step back and not need to be number one for a change whether as wife, mother, neighbor or any other role, do I step closer to being a more upright citizen, more ethically of value to others?

Is Harvey Cox, in a low key way, preaching to us? If he is, the tone comes through as a very gentle one. When I finish the book, I might find it's not just for the Harvard students. It's also for me, a senior woman.

Nope,..sorry, Hats. It was someone else who brought up 'control'. I had a very manipulative husband, so it is something I am sensitive to and tend to resist.

Indeed this 'course' is not just for young students. It attracted people of all ages, backgrounds and profession. And of course it's making all of us 'furiously to think'. I can't say that I feel Cox is preaching, so much; at least not in the sense of telling us what we should do. He says he carefully avoided doing that in teaching the course, as his goal was to help his students learn how to work out answers for themselves. Which, in my opinion, is the best thing a teacher can offer.

Babi

Where did the day go? Here it is about bedtime and I just came in to say that we have only 2 days to finish the 7th and the 8th chapter.

Every paragraph, every sentence almost, of this book could be chewed over again and again, it is so full of ideas, and I love reading all of your comments.

And I agree that both young and old can appreciate what Cox is writing. I particularly like the history, not only of the stories in the Bible, but the historical facts about Judaism and Christianity - their differences and their similarities

Let's read and discuss CHAPTER 7; more about the birth of Jesus - "a birth story that is replete with intrigue, conflict and deception. Did you ever think of it in that light?

Ella, I think so too. I have the book by my side. It makes me look at my thoughts and actions. I am anxious to read and learn from chapter 7.

Babi, I am sorry for confusing your name especially under such circumstances.

It's very early in the morning and the paper has several items about the issue of ads and even President Bush's Christmas cards which are leaving out the word "Merry Christmas" and substituting "Happy Holiday" in an attempt to be politically correct and I lay thinking about this trend. Of course, our constitution separates church and state and rightfully so; it's an age-old question of interpretation.

And then I picked up our book to review Chapter 7 and such thoughts seemed trivial when we were reminded of all the horrors of the past and present. Herod's order to kill all boys two years or under - a story that has reverberated throughout the centuries of Jewish history and today millions of people throughout the world are experiencing the same kind of terror and exile. I quote:

"The twentieth century has been called the century of the refugee. There may be more displaced and uprooted human beings today than in any previous era."

And every day we hear of more refugees attempting to come to America, being pushed away from the borders. Is it morally wrong to refuse entry? It's a sad time for so many in the world and here we all are in front of computers, warm and cozy in our homes and apartments.

Two questions in this chapter are intriguing:

Was Jesus told when he grew up about the children who had died so violently because the king was trying to kill him?

Did the early exposure to the dislocation of Jesus family (who had had to flee from Herod's wrath) affect Jesus in any way as he grew up?

Students' perceptions awake us all to the experience of questioning what we have learned in the past and possibly finding new answers or perhaps just new questions. I hope you are enjoying reading this book as much as I am.

JONATHAN, ALICE MAE, JEAN, SUN, DENJER, TRAUDE, GAIL AND HAROLD, are you still with us? Tis a busy time of the year but I hope you take a few minutes in the day to add your comments about making "moral choices" today.

We miss you!!!

Yes, I'm still reading the posts daily but since I still only have a small portion of the Introduction available to me (which I did a post on) I'm a little hampered to join in. At the beginning, when I found the Introduction on Amazon's website I was waiting to buy the book or borrow it from the library. At that time I was too sick to go out.

Now, as I read the posts, I'm in a quandry about the book at all because it seems to be different than what I had initially thought...more about personal religious experience than a book on ethics and civility (which I personally think are the hope of the world at this time) via the teachings of Jesus as wise teacher.

So if it's ok with all of you, I'll keep on reading the posts till I can get to the library and check the book out with my own eyes.

Thanks...it's nice to be missed! Wish I could contribute more and will after I've looked at the book, hopefully before the weekend.

Alliemae

I could not go to bed until finishing the seventh chapter.

I love the questions asked by the students. There questions are so thought provoking and compelling. Jesus life did begin in turmoil, intrigue, fear, etc. Did He remember those days? How did those days affect Him? Did He suffer survivor's guilt?

I nearly dropped the book! I never thought of such questions. I just accepted the story without asking many questions. Perhaps, in fear that asking questions meant a lack of faith. Then again, these students are far more intelligent than me. My brain is overloaded with just a small amount of facts. However, these are the leaders of tomorrow. I think their ability to think is enhanced and broadened by professors like Harvey Cox in the different universities.

While reading this book, this chapter, I can see that much of Jesus' life is really applicable to our life today. The twentieth century has been called the century of the refugee. After reading that quote my mind thought of the victims of Hurricane Katrina, I thought of the people in Iraq who have faced torture and the people in Afghanistan and the people in Cambodia.

Harvey Cox mentions Diaspora has become all too normal, and Jewish history the pattern for Rwandans, Tibetans, Salvadorans and many others. Amazingly, the historical Jesus suffered an exile because His life was in danger. His life has as much meaning or practicality as the life story of one of our presidents or one of the everyday heroes, the names of whom we don't know.

you have made many very intelligent contributions to all the discussions I've read you in, don't assume that all those students at Harvard are more intelligent than you are. Remember we are mature and experienced as opposed to their youth and inexperience, we have 50 years of knowledge on them and that makes for very interesting conversation - which you always provide.....jean

I am humbled and honored all at the same time. You are right. Those 50++ years must add up to some kind of wisdom for each one of us. Thank you for being so kind.

ELLA, you've asked some very interesting questions, but the answers to them are not to be found. We simply don't know if Jesus was told the massacre was an attempt to kill him, though he must have known of the massacre itself. No Hebrew would ever forget such a crime, or let it be forgotten by their children. Herod was hated as much or more than the Roman conquerors.

In Ch. 7, the actions and words of the adult Jesus, the Rabbi, take center stage. I look at the story of the healing of the leper and the Roman centurions servant, and ask myself what issues made these incidents important enough to save. The Rabbi touched a leper! Unclean! Rabbis weren't even supposed to touch women! (Outside their families of course.) Then he proposes to go the home of a Gentile! Horrors! No faithful Jew would defile himself by entering the house of a Gentile! What was Jesus thinking of?!

Well, it seems to me he is demonstrating that he looks at the person, and with compassion, and couldn't care less about whether the person was unpopular, or diseased, or not socially acceptable. Now, what does that tell me about how I should look today upon the homeless, the victim of AIDS, the family being shunned because other people of their race did something terrible. Oh,my. Oh,dear. That shoe is pinching, isn't it?

Babi

I think as children we all just accept the stories without asking many question. It takes years and a lot of growing up before we actually realize that it is all right to question these things.

I rmember running across stories in the Bible that they'd never told us about in Sunday School. Some racy stuff in there and thinking for the first time, these were real people who weren't much different than we are today. Somehow that never became clear to me until I was much older. I always put Bible stories in another time and place that had no relationship to life as we know it today.

I'm reading some amazing posts!

Yesterday I ordered the book...they didn't have it in my branch. I only hope I can catch up...they said I should have it within the week.

One good thing is that our Latin 101 is breaking from this Friday until after the holidays!

Wish me luck, please!!

Alliemae

AHA! Latin students gathering here, I just happen to be a very good friend of your instructor and I know she is looking forward to a break also! Glad you are here today, Gail and Alliemae.

Chapter Eight - RIFFING ON SIMEON - will be discussed today. I'll be back later. Any comments on this chapter?

I just looked at the schedule, we are behind aren't we? Oh, well, let's just go at a pace we set for ourselves. What does "riffing" mean?

I looked up riffing and found that it means: in music, to repeat a short phrase, over and over. How does that apply here? I have no idea!

Last night, we spent a long 3 hours attending a church celebration of Christmas with a play about the life of Jesus and much singing. It was beautiful and I found myself right up to date for answering questions from the grans since I had read this book. A good refresher in the bible stories and parables. I will reread the chapter and get back in here soon.

I have never heard of "Riffing." I think the definition given by Harvey Cox is very interesting. Harvey Cox likens "Riffing" to Jazz. A Jazz artist will stick to a recurring chord or theme of the song while at the same time, drawing on his imagination to widen or broaden the song. Finally, in the end, the music is different because the artist has moved from the original beat and given the song his own interpretation. At the same time, the Jazz piece will still have a basic structure.

Storytellers use this method to get a moral across or to fill in the missing pieces of a story. I have seen this method used by authors writing books about people in the Bible. There are novels written about Sarah, Rahab, Joseph and Jesus. Authors take the grains of truth that are given in the Bible. Then, the author will fill in the missing pieces of the person's life. In the end, we know more about the Biblical character than the facts given in the Bible. We also can come away with a moral that fits our life today.

I remember doing this with our children. Starting with a basic story, filling in the gaps and coming up with a story that would help the boys face a hard fact, the fact that a goldfish died or the fact that their friend had a new friend and they felt a bit left out. In the end, my beginning story had become new, while at the same time remaining familiar or the same.

Hi Allie May, I hope you can join us soon.

Ann--don't you just love that! I have taken some course or another all the while my grans were growing up and as a result they call me 'Cool Nana'!!

Well Ella...guess I'd better behave myself in here then! ha ha

Thanks Hats...can't wait to get the book and catch up!

Alliemae

I loved the parallel of improvisation on known facts with jazz 'riffing'. I think it is very apt. It doesn't depart from the known truths, it just fills in with appropriate 'maybes'.

I appreciated the explanation of the Midrash. I have two grandchildren who have been raised in the Jewish faith by their mother. I was once quite surprised when my grandson explained that they didn't study the Bible very much; they concentrated on the Midrash. The reason for this was that the Midrash taught them how to live the principles of the Mosaic law. As Cox puts it, "Midrash if a method invented by the rabbis to fill in the blanks, to span the gap between the general and the specific, and between then and now."

Which of course, is what this book is trying to do now. Fill in some of the gaps between 'then and now'.

Babi

It (the book) gets deeper and deeper and I'm wishing I could have heard his lectures in person.

But I have to admit that I don't remember hearing or reading anything about Simeon before - perhaps my memory of the Bible is fading or perhaps I never read it thoroughly - no "perhaps" about it. I haven't read the Bible for a long time - you know you can go to any Sunday School class these days and come away with the feeling that it has nothing to do with the Bible - lots of videos, good stories, but no Bible study!!!

But here we are reading about Simeon, a wise old man, who blessed the baby Jesus when his parents brought him to the temple by saying: "the child will not only be the liberator of Israel, he will also be a light to lighten the Gentiles."

Which surprised the parents a bit (what would you have thought if you were told this about your baby?) but Simeon didn't leave it alone, he had keep talking and must have frightened Mary dreadfully when he prophesied that Jesus' task will not be an easy one and that a sword will pierce her heart also.

Think of a new mother hearing that!

And then Cox tells us that this whole Simeon business is a "perfect illustration of a religious riff, a creative extrpolation from a given theme."

I'm lost!!!

And I would have set those students straight when they observed that old people are often boring or distracted and that they thought the whole "wisdom of the elderly" business was overrated!

What else do we have going for us except the fact that we are supposed to be "wise old owls" and they are taking that away from us!!!!!! Shame!!!

I'm ready to go BEAT THE DEVIL in chapter 9, how about you?

What does the word "temptation" conjure up in your mind?

My friend has a t-shirt that says "Age and treachery will triumph over youth and skill."

If theologians study about the "midrash" and "filling in the gaps" why do the fundamentalist ministers insist on a "literal reading of the Bible?" And then their knowing that it has been interpreted from the Hebrew to the Greek to..?.?..... and to various kinds of English and that if they go back and read the Hebrew, it's not been interpreted correctly? It's irrational IMO. It's like the "telephone game" we used to play; what is said at the end of the line is not close to what was said at the beginning of the line. It appears to me that the Jews have a much more sane approach to the Bible......jean

I have just finished reading all 132 posts by various people who bring a lot of thought and thinking to thier posts. I wish I had the time to get this book and read it ,.I will do it but I fear I wont be able to contribute. I am not surprised by the fact this study at Harvard has been going on for 20years ..Sooner or later EVERYONE has to ask the question of thier life IS THIS ALL THERE IS ??? I asked it at 13 when I realized one Easter morning that every life ends in death. Here we are with fewer years ahead than we have left behind we have a chance to look back and see what we have done with those years.

I hope the students that attended this class learned that people are more important than things. I have nothing in my home that is more valuable than the people that come into it. Reading the Bible and reading the parables taught me more than any book I have read and I have read hundreds over my 78 years . First there is really no contradiction between the BIG BANG theory and what the bible says of creation .If you havent read it recently please do, I learned that wars, refugees , crime, cruel and humane things, pestilence, hate,earthquakes, floods and everything that appears on our TV and in our newspapers are not new ...Adultery , affairs, you name it and the Bible covers it all But the Rabbi Jesus shared a vision of a world that could be better , HE gave us hope..and forgiveness and that is what every human being needs From the earliest human discoveries we learn that humans felt a need to worship something .. They were all asking the question that the young people at Harvard, that all of us ask How did it all begin and how will it end,.ONE thing I do know that no matter what we do , how much wealth we may gather, how much fame may come our way, how evil or how good we are in the end there is ONLY ONE DOOR AND NONE CAN STAY OUTSIDE.

I apoligize for posting since I havent read the book nor have participated from the beginning I will read the book now, your thoughts and posts makes me want to do that. anna

Yes, we all wonder some time in our lives, "is that all there is?" Remember Peggy ?????'s song about it?? I still wonder! That's what makes the trip worthwhile! We are always seeking and learning.

The devil in the next chapter could be imagined or real, it doesn't matter. In the process of telling the story, the writer poses three temptations:

To see and control the results of what we do.

To have one's achievements admired and recognized.

To surrender to suspicion that when all is said and done, "there is nothing you can do about it".

In today's world, these are not uncommon temptations. I wonder which is the most common. From what Cox says in the opening of the book, the students of today accept the "there is nothing you can do about it" pretty easilly. And don't we all?? Watching TV and objecting to the violence presented there and thinking that we have no power to change it. Maybe-maybe not! We won't know until we try.

I don't agree with Cox though as I see many young folks trying to make a difference in this world. We have active Scout leaders, youth group leaders, volunteers at soup kitchens, volunteers at clothing drives, church goers who teach Sunday school classes---this list could go on forever.

My DIL is getting ready to leave on a long drive south to take gifts and clothing that her children's school and her church collected for just one group of folks who are now living in a new community where they landed after Katrina. The whole area around them is pretty much shut down in the way of stores and the like so these young people here collected clothing, school supplies and gifts for the refugees plus money for gas and motels for the young women taking the load south before the holiday. There was such an outpouring of generousity, they had to add a trailer to the back of their SUV to carry it all. Now, what can I help with that? Guess what, I am helping with the baby sitting while they are gone as they leave 5 or 6 kidsos behind and the Dads can only help on the weekend. So, we are all involved in this undertaking. Pray for us! Particulary the young women driving south in the uncertain winter weather.

As Cox gets further into this chapter he recommends the spiritual exercises of Ignatius Loyola and learning to walk and talk with Jesus. My church once offered a course entitled "Pray" which followed this idea. It was a worthwhile experience and taught us to meditate. Many people go to retreats and the same type of practice is offered there. We have all of the tools here and maybe we should learn to use them.

I don't know if we have wisdom or just great hind sight but either one works, don't you think?

Like ANNA, I don't have this book, but your posts make me want to get hold of it and read it.

As a musician, who has played a lot of jazz as well as classical music, I'll say that to me and musicians like me, to riff means to improvise on a theme, to take center stage, so to speak, in the middle of a piece and embellish the music as only you can.

I'm thinking of the "burgeoning enrollment" in Dr. Cox's class. At Harvard College, right?

When I was an undergraduate at Smith College, which is on a par with Harvard but for women, courses in religion were known as "gut courses" in these Ivy League schools. That is to say, they were easy and could be passed with ease and not much work, and they were always full. If your schedule was jammed up with chemistry, physics, two foreign languages, a critical analysis literature course and others like that, a course in religion was a blessed relief like recess in grade school.

I soon learned in one religion course I took that I didn't even have to show up in class. All I had to do to get an A was to read the book to pass the exams. (And that's what I did.)

I'm wondering if any of these Harvard guys and gals had the same idea in mind when they signed up for this particular course?

More power to them, and I hope they got something out of it anyway.

Mal

ELLA, yes, I'm here again after catching up. The weather has changed all day and we are now, it seems, in a heavy Northeaster, fresh snow blowing sideways, the visibility zero. We already had 2 mini-outages, requiring rebooting the computer, and I hope it won't get worse.

Powerful post, ANNA, hello MAL.

ELLA, are we still on chapter 7 or going on to # 8 ?

Hahahaaa MABEL! Treachery in our old age? Who have you been hanging out with? I love it!

You are a skeptic – so am I! Greek, Hebrew – all these translations about the Bible, what are we to believe?

ANNA, so good to hear from you and I know we all agree that the Bible covers wars, refugees , crime, cruel and in humane things, pestilence, hate, earthquakes, floods and everything that appears on our TV and in our newspapers ...Adultery , affairs, - there is nothing new under the sun is there! Do get the book and read it and come back and tell us what your thoughts are!

Ann! Great post and what a generous thing your DIL is doing – how many are going with her? That’s the right spirit we all should have at Christmas, a wonderful story! Thanks for sharing that! I’m just curious as to this “ We have all of the tools here and maybe we should learn to use them.” What tools?

MAL – a few of us have voiced the same concern you have that these students are looking for an easy course and somewhere I think the author also recognizes this fact; I cannot pinpoint his exact words but often, admirably, he admits his own limitations, his own lack of knowledge and I certainly appreciate the fact that an author can do that.

It’s an interesting book if for no other reason that it is about the BIBLE! And the students’ questions and opinions add much to the text.

Do any of you feel that the present day church has abandoned our generation – seniors, if you will - for the young; they now have loud music, bands on stage, clapping, much entertainment and our old traditional church service, with quiet meditation, prayers and lovely old hymns are no more. The church I attend at least holds one “traditional service” and the other is “contemporary.” Guess which I prefer!

Here I am lounging on the couch reading the Sermon on the Mount again (Chapter 11). And as Cox states it does reveal Jesus at his most eloquent and most unnerving - what do we make of these pronouncements that over the years have intrigued thousands of interpretations.

It’s not for me to say or even voice an opinion – they are beautiful words, lovely thoughts, particularly at this season; Blessed are those who show mercy, Blessed are the peacemakers, Blessed are the poor in spirit, blessed are the gentle

Wonderful promises.

TRAUDE - I skipped over the "campaign" chapter, as we are a bit behind here, and let's discuss Chapter 11 - but, of course, I'd love to hear everyone's opinions on any of the chapters, or any ideas you may have. We've had a bit of snow, nothing unmanageable so far, sorry you are getting our portion also!

Sorry to be an intruder here, but I was reading along and the name Simeon brought to mind the lovely(well I think so) poem "A Song For Simeon" by T S Eliot(p) my life is light, waiting for the death wind,
Like a feather on the back of my hand.
Dust in sunlight and memory in corners
Wait for the wind that chills towards the dead land."

Later he talks of "the certain hour of maternal sorrow" and "the birth season of decease". He was always laden with inferences. "Grant me thy peace.(And a sword shall pierce thy heart, Thine also.) Just lovely verses. Sorry, tiptoeing out for breakfast.

of the Sermon on the Mount. I memorized the "Sermon/Mt" when iwas a kid, but my mind just doesn't bring up any comment or remembrance of the "woes." Intersting, isn't it? Each minister picks and chooses what of the Bible they are going to preach about and how much we should accept of the "literalness."

Ella - one of the behaviors that attracts me to my friends is their sense of humor, we laugh a lot, it's good for our mental and physical health and makes life a heck of a lot of fun!!.......jean

I was surprised when Cox equated the first temptation, turning stones into bread, with the desire to see and control the results of what we do. An interpretation I heard, and with which I agree, is that this was a temptation to lead by 'giving the people what they want'. Roman politicians wooed the powerful voting citizens of Rome with 'bread and circuses'. They gave away free grain and provided lavish public entertainments. That makes sense to me as a form of leadership Jesus would reject, but I don't see what 'stones to bread' has to do with seeing and controling the results of what we do.

Backing up a little to the 'riffing' that Jesus was doing. "Like rabbbis before and after him, he was interpreting and applying the Law and using--among other things--fabulous stories to do so." That immediately reminded me of all the times Reb Jesus would start a story with: "You have heard it said [quote].But I say to you.." That's exactly what he was doing.

His hearers apparently felt that was something in Jesus' teaching that was different from that of other Rabbis, however. At the close of the Sermon on the Mount, there is an observation that the people were 'amazed' at his teaching, for he "taught as one having authority, and not as other teachers did."

Babi

Jan, You are not a intruder here but have given us a lovely poem to to think about and I am. If you are new here, Welcome aboard.

This discussion is going so good as I felt it would don't have much to say but might later.

Ginger

I guess that what I mean is that we have much spiritual guidance from many quarters and they are tools with which we can work and make this world of ours a better place.

Congratulations everybody for doing so well with a difficult book. I've been sick as a dog lately and therefore not participating as much as I would like. But it's a wonderful book and for many a very timely book, no doubt, with the celebration of Jesus' birth coming up. And wasn't that as great as any Big Bang. For some. Anyone for a singalong of those old favorites that Prof Cox remembers. Doesn't he sound a little perplexed in Ch8?

'...and the more I struggled with the relevance of Jesus for decision making today...'

I see Chapter 8 as an admission that Jesus as a moral guide can only come about if one has that 'closer walk with Him'. Get close to Him. As the Jesuits do. The Spiritual Excercises sound like a very intense reimaging, or reimagining of every step that Jesus ever took. It's disappointing that Cox does not give us the Jesuit meditation, or contemplation, on Jesus in the desert. I find Cox's summation of the three temptations has a little too much of the 'classroom' air about it.

For those without the book, the scriptural reading for Ch8 is Matthew 4:1-10.

I'm no biblical scholar, not a Christian either for that matter. But it seems to me this experience in the wilderness was a spiritual crisis for Jesus, as well as a temptation. 'If you are the Son of God' keeps running through his thoughts. This is heady stuff. Since childhood he has heard these wonderful things about himself. Can we believe that his mother would not have told him of his wonderful destiny, as savior of his people, their king. This fatherless child found his true Father. Then, at his baptism, the voice from heaven: 'This is my beloved son.' Is it any wonder that he had to withdraw to, or did his life suddenly seem a moral wilderness where he had to choose between godliness and power. Selflessness or selfishness, riches or poverty. Jesus and the Devil talking Scripture! My, oh my.

I find Cox's style very stimulating and provocative. He is certainly giving imagination a big role to play in all this. Doesn't he see any danger in that direction? 'Riffing' is certainly an exciting thing to bring into play. How about the 'puffing'? All those exaggerated claims on Jesus' behalf? Was everybody talking about all the wonders surrounding his arrival on earth? Did it seem supernatural at the time? This waiting for a Messiah must have had many mothers dreaming. Did Simeon greet other babies with similiar prophecies? Mary, this child will break your heart. How the other mothers must have envied her. Or did they have similiar visions? What a strange story.

Alright Ella, the crisis is resolved. Let's consider the Sermon.

JAN - I'm sorry I neglected to thank you for the references from T.S. Elliot's poems. How profound, how sorrowful! ""the certain hour of maternal sorrow" and "the birth season of decease" - I don't think I would like to read more, I don't want to get in a "funk" - I'm trying to lift myself out of one and not sink deeper! They are lovely words though, thanks for your interest!

JONATHAN - so sorry you have been ill, take your vitamin C and get well, as if it is that easy, huh? According to Cox, not being a Christian is very modern today: quoting from pg.132 "we live in what has been called a 'post-Christian' era.....the United States has become perhaps the most religiously pluralistic country in a religiously diverse world......there was a time when missionaries actually believed they could 'win the world for Christ in our generation'......Far into the foreseeable future, Christians will live as a minority."

President Bush is getting good advice then for his Happy Holiday card, do you all agree?

Jonathan, I think the Sermon on the Mount speaks for itself, even the students in Cox's class proclaimed these words of Jesus "awesome." Don't we all put our own interpretation on them? Maybe not, I don't know.

Tis the season to say Peace on earth, goodwill to men, words are so easy to say, aren't they? Actions are more difficult and I think of our guys in Iraq this season, far from home and these Christian peace activists being held hostage, what do you think?

Perhaps it is time we woke up to the fact that Arabs do not want to be christenized? They have their religious beliefs, what in the world are we trying to do?

The "woes" are a little frightening I must admit! I'm well fed and I love to laugh and I hope people speak well of me - so I have a reason to be scared. But I'm not rich, although comfortable. Perhaps the Carnegies and the Rockefellers and all the other barons of past and present read the woes and therefore founded their charitable philanthropies.

Those are my thoughts for the day. Please add your comments on the Sermon on the Mount or the Beatitudes.

Re: "President Bush is getting good advice then for his Happy Holiday card, do you all agree?"

I don't know about the advice or who gave it to him but I think it is the only possible caring thing that a person in his position could have done.

We send greetings not to parade our beliefs necessarily but to make someone we respect and care about happy.

When we were kids, my mom always had all different kinds of cards to send at Christmas time. In those days in the small town where we lived they didn't have a card for every holiday.

But my mom was a thoughtful person. So she sent Catholic Christmas cards to her Catholic family and friends, another religious (generic Christian I guess you might call it) to those whom she knew celebrated the birth of Christ. Then she had some humerous or just cheery Christmas cards and then, for those folks she knew were not Christians or those whose religious choice she did not know, she had Happy Holidays and Happy New Year cards.

No fuss, no muss, no arguments...and the only soul-searching was, what will make the person receiving this card enjoy the holiday they celebrate a tiny bit more.

I like that way.

The president is everyone's president. I'm glad he acted like it.

Alliemae

Ella

Long ago, I mentioned reading in USNews about five young men who have definitely made a difference in the world. I will leave a link if possible since they have really impressed me with their determination to improve other people's lives.

Here they are:

Entrepreneur For Social Change

Blueprint of Life

Wiping Out TB and AIDS

Re: The right thing to do.

I'm back just in time to stick my foot in it. Here goes. My Daughter receives cards from the President. I don't.

Yes, I suppose it's the right card...to avoid offending contributors of various sorts. But from a President that claims to be one of the biggest Christians to ever dwell in the White House...to stand mute on a Christian holiday seems a bit cowardly to me.

I say that because after joining everyone else in wishing one and all a Happy Holiday, and other assorted bland greetings for a year or two, it finally dawned on me: Christmas is a "Christian holiday" and cannot really be called anything else. Easter is also a Christian holiday. If one chooses to not celebrate these days, that's fine.

The names of the holidays could also be changed. I wouldn't be at all shocked...the time will come....they may go back and call it St. Nick Day, or something.

Too bad...I came to post some remarks on the life of Jesus and Mahatma Gandhi. Guess I got side tracked with my remarks above. But somehow I doubt either of them would mute their message to please the crowd.

Maybe I just have a bad attitude about this...care to enlighten me?

Sun

SUN: I think of Happy Holidays as including Christmas, Hannukah and Kwanzaa. Only one of those holidays is a Christian holiday. I agree with the person who posted the cards that were sent from their house reflected the belief of the receiver of the card and not the giver of the card. President Bush's card to personal Christian friends can certainly be Christian. In my mind cards sent to the public in general need to be more generic.

Marjorie - You're right. Point well made.

My problem with it is that the name of the holiday is still Christmas. <smile>

Sun

(Hope I didn't get too far off track here..I wish I had not made the remarks, they may not be in the spirit of the discussion.)

Maybe if we think that we are sending "holiday cards," rather than "Christmas cards," Happy Holidays will make more sense. Even I think of them as "Christmas cards" and I celebrate Hannukah. I will send a few generic cards and a couple of Hannukah cards this year.

Of Course, Happy Holidays makes more sense. I agree.

I, too, have sent Hannukah Cards to friends, and received Christmas gifts and cards from them.

Like I went back and added, wish I had not started the conversation, and just stuck to discussing the book. I ask for enlightenment, then back down...sorry about that,)

Sun

Dear Sun, Hi, I'm Alliemae...nice to meet you!

Yes, Christmas IS a Christian holiday...but there are more Winter Holidays than Christmas and I think that's the point.

I lived in a house of women at one point in my life and we were dedicated to celebrating diversity. So many of us contributed other winter holidays into our Winter Holiday Party.

There is, first of all, The Solstice in winter. And there's Hannakuh and A Festival of Lights which I believe is attributed to a St. Lucia, tho I'm not sure. There was also Kwanzaa and we had many African-American friends who celebrated that great holiday of Peace, Unity and other attributes that lend to a more civil society. And, of course, there was Christmas. We had a huge Christmas tree and a manger scene. We also had a beautiful Menorrah and some of us played Dreidl; we had a Kwanzaa table and a Solstice table and I had even found an Islamic winter celebration which involved the lightings of the Mosques and celebrations in their homes which we also honored at our Winter Holidays Party, and to tell you the truth, we found out that there were a lot of things in common between all of those religions...the most frequently common: Love, Peace and Light and Understanding.

This is a big world and our country is a leader of nations at this time. We need, always, to be inclusive IMO so as to not cause hurt to others who are not like us.

We had friends from our churches (first Congregationalist and then Baptist as Mom was Catholic and Dad raised as a Baptist) and we were free to celebrate Christmas with our Christian friends by sending religious greetings. One's personal life is one's own.

Civic leaders, on the other hand, DO represent the entire citizenry. I have a feeling that President and Mrs. Bush may have sent their family and close circle of friends actual Christmas cards and that is right and good.

But to send a public card, I still think it is most civil and most thoughtful to remember that, as leader, each citizen in his or her diversity is considered and respected.

Well, that's me off my soap box.

Oh, and to quote Eunice Shriver: "Just one more thing..." This country has opened the doors to all. That's why we must respect all. As my dad used to say," If you want to build a better world, start with yourself, then your family, then your neighbors, then your community, etc, etc, etc.

I think we have to realize that if we decide to present our country as a representative of ANY religion and rationalize that everything we do is FOR AND FROM that religion, we are no less 'jihadists' than the extremists we are being attacked by...and we are no longer a free republic but no different than an Islamic Republic which we say impedes democracy for its citizens.

Sorry, but this is my 'sore spot'. I studied the Near and Middle East and there is more to their story than 'jihad'...believe me.

Peace, Allie

Hi again Sun and all...Sun I must have been writing my post when you and others were writing and posting! Guess that's what happens when I write an entire 'treatise'!! (smile)

Peace, Alliemae

This is just wonderful! We have a discussion, truly a discussion, opinions, questions, controversy, it's what we should always have; it's what I most enjoy about Seniornet Books! Everyone voicing their emotions, thank you all!

We don't have to reach any conclusions, there is no right or wrong, I'm just enjoying reading all your posts. Keep it up!

CHAPTER 13: The Rabbi Teaches Torah

Does he?

But I confess this was one of my favorite chapters in the book, not that Cox was very profound; he admits to frustration.

"Do not store up for yourselves treasure on earth
I tell you not to be anxious about food and drink to keep you alive
Consider how the liies grow in the fields...

My grandmother used to quote these passages from the Bible; at her home we had scripture and a prayer after dinner, and, yet, she worked harder than any woman I know. It was the depression and her husband had died rather early and, in order to make a living, she started what we call today a "nursing home.

And the students loved this discussion and seemed "somewhat excited by the prospect of not living their lives pursuing something called 'financial security.'

Harvard students not interested in pursuing a career? AH, come on!

The subject of money has been a divisive issue throughout the history of Christianity. Why did Cox limit that issue to Christianity??? Money concerns us all - it consumes - if we didn't pursue money what kind of life could we expect?

Personally, I never thought I could live as a lily, what about you?

Are we up to Ch.13 already? I'm trailing behind! Did I miss some posts? I need to do some fast reading, and skip my planned comments.

I find myself doing that in real-life conversations, too. Especially since my hearing has gotten worse. I make a comment and discover I'm addressing something that was two subjects back, to the confusion of everyone else there. (*~*)

Babi

I don't believe that this should mean that we cannot make money. (Where did the term "make money" come from anyway? Don't we earn Money?) I think what Cox is trying to point out is that Jesus was saying we should not become too attached to "stuff". Being secure or being rich is as much a state of mind as it is having material possesions. After all is said and done, you can't take anything with you when you leave this earth.

It is titled "Paper Clips" and is the true story of a middle school in Whitlaw, Tenn where 3 teachers worked w/ students who were studying the Holocaust and developed a project they had impact from Tenn to Europe. I missed the beginning, so i'm not sure how the idea got started, but they decided to collect paper clips as representative of the people who were in the Holocaust. They ended up with 29 million paper clips and thousands of wonderful letters from people who were survivors or who's friends and family died in the camps. They were contacted by a group of survivors who came and spent two or three days in the community and told their stories, impacting not only the students but many in the town.

One of the teachers said she would like to provide a permenant memorial on the school grounds using the paper clips as a symbol of the 11 million people who died. A couple of German descent who lived in the community went to Germany and found a cattle car that was used to transport people to the camps. They brought it to Whitlaw and it is used as a depository and museum for the clips and the stories. The students now act as docents to the students and adults who come from everywhere to hear the story of the Holocaust and the story of the project.

The story is wonderful in many ways: it belies the horrible stories about how bad todays' teachers are that are put forth, largely by the conservative right who dislikes the teachers' union; it tells a marvelous story of a whole community learning lessons of history, tolerance and compassion; it tells a story of students just needing to be told real, interesting stories of history to enjoy studying it; it tells the story that middle school students can be responsible, hard-working young people when they are motivated.

It's on HBO ON Demand, if you have access to that.......jean

Your points are well taken.

As you know, I am notoriously the "fussy" one when it comes to words, definition and interpretations and I, frankly, see no real problem. Certainly not in other languages. For example French-speakers call Christmas "Noël", Italians call it "Natale"; both are based on the Latin natalis (dies) . dies = day. Clearly neither word reflects "Christ" linguistically, but it is understood to refer to the day of the birth of Jesus.
The German word is "Weihnachten" = Solemn Night. Christmas EVE (der Heilige Abend) is traditionally the time when presents are opened in many European countries. Both December 25th and December 26th are legal holidays.

Allow me to say that this issue seems to have been artificially created by one faction of Christians clearly seeking dominance, and in some respects that is tantamount to intimidation. However, that does not sit well with me who was raised under a dictatorial system.
For my part I will continue to call this holiday "Christmas". People should be allowed but not forced to decide this (relatively minor) issue for themselves : that is their perfect right in a democracy.

ELLA, please let us know in what chapter we are now since I am lagging behind but would like to be in step with all of the participants. Thank you.

Thanks to one and all for explaining your own feelings regarding the Holiday we celebrate on December 25.

Each of you have expressed your own thoughts on the holiday, and just as I agreed that Marjorie's point was well made, I must also say that Alliemae wrote her heart out in defense of a broader point of view.

Alliemae, I did indeed smile at your "entire 'treatise'. I have a hard time just saying a few words myself, hard to stop once we get started, right?

Ladies, I agree with everything you say, and as I explained I too believed in celebrating diversity. I know about all of the different religious, national, and winter holidays, and have nothing against celebrating any of them.

To me, the President's so-called Christmas card, is not a Christmas Card at all....it's a Greeting Card. Most of you seem to agree that is as it should be. It's part of a growing trend, and what more is there to be said about it? Political correctness consumes us and it does allow more diversity.

Final thought: December 25 is designated as Christmas Day and defined as a holiday celebrating the birth of Christ. I think Generic greetings should be reserved for New Year Day.

Ella says we don't have to reach any conclusions, and I'll go along with that.

Justin jumped right in there with a question: "... So, did Jesus bring more peace than contention with his moralizing?" I'm hoping he will come back and answer it himself.

Babi - I agree, I felt like we missed Chapter 12, or something. Evidently we are racing to the finish. I was way ahead for a while, but they have caught up with me now.

Jerilyn - treasures on earth. I wonder if Jesus was truly against any man having wealth?. So few people would have had any money (or wealth) at all back then, and most of it came from the hard work of slaves, or what was taken from others...not what a man had earned himself.

Do you think that is a case where the differences in time, now and then, would come into play? We still have that kind of "Rich", but we have a lot of people that struggled and earned what they have...I do not believe the scriptures would include "all" of the "Rich" today.

Jean - The "Paper Clip" story is marvelous. A simple idea that lead to a wonderful project that honored those that died. Children given the opportunity to participate in something like that will touched by it for a long time to come. One more small thing to assure that the world never, ever forgets the Holocaust.

Traude - thanks for the adding your word wisdom. Yes, people should be allowed to call it what they will, but officially, the day is still called Christmas.

Sun

Oh my, Sun...you know me so well already!!

I'm enjoying this discussion so much BTW everyone, I've decided to not wait for the library but am ordering book for myself. Found a copy on some offshoot of Amazon for only $16 dollars so am buying it for myself for Christmas.

This is such an interesting discussion...and a really, really pleasant one. We agree to disagree...listen as well as speak...maybe that's what the book was going for...I'll soon see!

Peace, Alliemae

Jean, I too was touched by this beautiful account. Those children will never forget...and neither will I.

Peace, Alliemae

When I posted the "Paper Clip" story on the tv discussion, MaryZ from Tenn told me it is in Whitwell Tenn and the students had learned that Jews wore paper clips to identify themselves to each other, so that is why they tho't of collecting the paper clips. I missed the beginning and therefore that part. There are so many wonderful tangents to the story, I hope some of you get to see it......jean

WHERE ARE WE IN THE BOOK?

According to the Schedule posted in the heading we are to discuss Chapters 11-18 by December 14th. Today is the 12th - where do you all want to be? There is no hurry, of course, but I thought we should attempt to keep on a schedule.

Did Jesus bring peace? No. Will there ever be peace on earth, goodwill to men? No. Does God (by any name) promise peace? I don't think so. Isn't that why Cox refers often to the Garden of Eden and the sin committed there?

We have met Adam and Eve and they are us? We are not destined for peace on earth.

Where would you like us to be in the book? We can do whatever you would like, it is you who are making this a good, a fascinating study of a difficult book.

THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH FOR YOUR COMMENTS, I TRULY ENJOY COMING HERE EVERYDAY

More later, ella

I have to butt in after lurking for ages. Yes if we stuck to the precepts of the Sermon on the Mount we would have peace on earth. Its not God who causes havoc its man who does that because we have free will. Its mans inhumanity to man and greed which has caused such unrest in the world. We got given some principles to live by and the majority of us don't want to live by them.

Carolyn

JOHNATHAN, when Jesus spoke of the peace he offered, he was speaking of a personal peace, the inner peace of mind that is attainable. He specifically said he did not come to bring peace to the world. On the contrary, he warned that his teachings would be like a sword dividing peoples and families as some chose to follow them and others refused them. And that has certainly been true.

He also said there would be wars and rumors of wars to the end of time. No false promises of 'peace' there. As Ella pointed out, human nature remains the same and we still have to deal with it as best we can. One of the best ways, IMHO, is the moral principles taught by Jesus which we are looking into here.

Babi

Like the rabbi would say, Ella. You're right.

'Yes if we stuck to the precepts of the Sermon on the Mount we would have peace on earth.'

Again the rabbi would say: You're right, Carolyn.

'When Jesus spoke of the peace he offered, he was speaking of a personal peace, the inner peace of mind that is attainable.'

Without even giving the rabbi a chance to say anything, Babi, I'll say, you're right. I know just where you're coming from. That was the reason I was given for getting to know Jesus. Get yourself a new life, to paraphrase an often-heard bit of advice. People scoff and sneer, but the 'born again' concept has proven miraculous for many. But surely a variation of that must be available in every faith system. Kant even discovered it philosophically. My favorite account is an anonymous inscription I found while browsing in a used-book store many years ago. The happy spiritual exuberance by itself was was worth the price of the book.

"I went home...and began the most wonderful journey of my life - to the Holy Spirit and Jesus. I feel at peace. I feel joy. I've seen miracles. There is no need for anyone to worry or feel alone. None whatsoever! They can trust Him, step out in faith. Every sorrow and care will be gone. Hallelujah. The journey from darkness into light is so short. Once it's been made, the life left behind seems so long ago.' Anonymous.

That almost makes one envious. To feel such a divine rush. And one likes to feel that this lucky person was, thereafter, always aware of a higher wisdom guiding her through the toughest moral decisions.

This person seems to have been made over. Not exactly what the Harvard students would feel as being part of the course. Talk of establishing a God's Kingdom might even seem to be heading in the direction of a theocracy. Heaven forbid. Who wants to get that ethical?

I'm pleased to see other things brought into the discussion, including 'appropriate' christmas cards, and the Holocaust.

'He also said there would be wars and rumors of wars to the end of time. No false promises of 'peace' there.' Babi, post 166

I have a real problem with that. Humanly speaking, realistically, it's a no brainer. But the irony is that many wars have been religious wars, and Jesus' teachings and counsels have contributed to that. Should he be held accountable? The seeds of the holocaust were sown then. Some thing went wrong. Jesus' words were ambiguous, a mix of blessings and woes, indicating an uncertain missionary strategy? Words of peace. But then also, fighting words.

Ella, I don't agree with you that we are into a post-Christian era. Not by a long shot. Christ still lives. As does his Father. And that intrigues me. He had the Messiah role forced on him by his mother, with her strange stories. And her problem with his paternity. I wonder how her neighbors felt.

Jonathan

But i certainly don't think we are in one. I have heard more people talking about their Christianity in the last decade than i had in the previous 60 years. We have athletes pointing upward when they do well indicating that it was because of God - i haven't noticed that they think if they fumble that that had anything to do w/ God - and i think that it is a way for them to say "I am a religious (and i think most of them, if not all are Christian) person and i'm letting you all know it. We have more public discussions and media discussions about religion, w/ support for Christianity than i have ever heard. There is a huge movement on college campuses lead by Crusade for Christ. I just think the fundamentalists have decided that it's a good way to stir up quieter Christians by saying there is a war against Christianity, and it's a good way to get people to give more money to them.....jean

Just before I went to buy the book I decided to call the library on the odd chance that the book loan had come in. It has!! So now I can continue with my original plan...get to know the book for three weeks or so and THEN decide if I want to/can afford to buy it.

And...I will be able to fully participate.

I do have a question. Although I'll be catching up, are these chapters also valuable in a discrete sense or are the ideas more cumulative?

Thanks!

Peace, Alliemae

p.s. now I really wish I had studied comparative religions and philosophies even more than I have in my 'dabbling'...It's like a framed cross stitch piece my Aunt Esther had hanging on her dining room wall:

"There is so much good in the worst of us, and so much bad in the best of us, that if hardly behooves any of us to talk about the rest of us."

Matthew Fox in his book "Original Blessing" did a lot of quoting of religious scholars such as Thomas Aquinas (spelling?). It worked very well for framing what he had to say. I almost wish that Cox had used more of the same. Especially when it comes to teaching young students wouldn't it make sense to use various resources? ...or was his object merely to get the students thinging and coming up with their own ideas?

This is what I've concentrated on with the book, rather than one's final decision but how to reach a decision for the good.

Jean quoted Cox in Post 101 "......He(Jesus) realized that the missing dimension in nealy all moral reflection is imagination. ....we need reasoning to lead a moral life, but we need - even more- the capacity to intuit what is important and...to envision alternative possibilities, and to see beyond what sometimes appears to be an impasse. We need to apreciate not just how other people see things but how they feel about them and to do this our most potent resource is still the human imagination, awakened by compelling narratives."

The question is: how do we reach that space of imagination? Through stories that make us question or take us out of ourselves? our ordinary minds? to what the Buddhists sometimes call the "empty mind"? through the parables of Jesus? with other parables? I think each person can choose what best fits him or her.

I think Cox is asking us to see from outside the material world and that can be a difficult place to leave behind.

Marvelle

Jonathan asked about the spritual exercises of Saint Ignatius of Loyola. I too was disappointed that Cox didn't explain further. The Jesuists offer retreats (up to 30 days) for these exercies of prayers, meditations, examination of conscience and other practices. The exercies are divided into 4 weeks with the first week being a contemplation of sin (original sin, one's own sins, and God's plan); week 2 contemplates the person and life of Jesus; week 3 is the Passion; week 4 is the Resurrection. In each week the individual meditating relates his/her sins; their person and life; their sufferings; and their renewal.

More on Saint Ignatius from the Catholic Encyclopedia: Saint Ignatius

There are books that offer the spiritual exerices. One is called A Do-It-At-Home Retreat which follows the 30 day retreat but even so is very very very structured. Perhaps too much so.

Marvelle

Allie - Great good luck, you found the book in the Library. But listen, if you can keep the book for three weeks, the discussion is scheduled to be over by Dec. 30. Of course, you may still want to buy the book. I did, but I bought it early, intend to pass it along to my daughter.

BTW...I love the quotation: "...worst of us, best of us..." it's been a favorite for many years.

Jonathan - Your: "He had the Messiah role forced on him by his mother, with her strange stories. And her problem with his paternity. I wonder how her neighbors felt."

I confess I had wondered about that out loud in a few Sunday School Classes, years ago....and was promptly scolded for even thinking such things. But I also agree that Christ still lives and is very much present for some of us.

Marvelle - You mentioned "Retreats". Have any of you ever been on a real official retreat? I've had several opportunities, but never have gone.

My retreats always consist of pulling up a chair, sitting on the lawn with a water hose, watering the flower beds that I planted, and tended, and that blossomed so beautifully that they seemed heaven sent, leaving you breathless. Or maybe being caught in a spring rain storm, with wind blowing all cares away, and rain leaving a fresh clean world behind. Such restful times are like retreats to me, mostly because they as so unplanned, they just happen and you can only feel refreshed. I didn't have to go anywhere to find them, they came to me.

The older I get, the more personal religion becomes...it has almost nothing to do with a church building any more. In a way that saddens me, but it's true. That's just the way it is.

Sun

Just picked up the book and Denjer, that's what I'm about to check out! I was wondering how much variety of opinion would be in the book. It'll be exciting to find out!

Sun, didn't realize that. Yes, the book will be due in three weeks. Oh, I hope I am able to catch up with the class!!

Off to read now...

Peace, Alliemae

But the irony is that many wars have been religious wars, and Jesus' teachings and counsels have contributed to that. Should he be held accountable?

Speaking from my own view, Johnathan, it has appeared to me on looking at history that many of the wars supposedly waged for 'religious' causes, were actually waged for political and economic reasons, with 'religion' used as a cover to persuade the general populace to go along with it.

I cannot see that people who teach good and wise counsels, including many other than Jesus, are accountable for the twisted use others may make of their words. It is somewhat similar to the warlike uses that are made of many scientific discoveries. The discoveries themselves can be used for beneficent or violent purposes. The praise or blame goes to the intent in the heart of the persons using them, not the person who brought them to light.

Babi

SUN, I feel much the same way you do...about retreats and church buildings. My husband and I had a lot of those one on one spiritual walks when we journeyed to Alaska in a converted van a couple of summers ago. We spent a lot of time outside and saw some of the most awesome scenry in our lifetime. Through our hikes in the mountains and along pristine lakes that were a turquoise and emerald green we both felt a spiritual closeness to the creation. I also get the same feelings in the summer when tending my flower garden.

Babi - I echo your thoughts in the above posts. You hit the nail right on the head!

carolyn

PS to sit and wash the waves crash on one our wilderness beaches is a real retreat to me. Looking at Lion Rock and hearing the sea gulls calling as they glide over the sea. That is truly heaven!

Carolyn

Babi,

Like Kiwi I agree with the words in your post.

We were taught very early on that its not "peace to all men" but "peace to men of good will", a qualifier there. It doesn't really matter since some of us feel one way and some another but we are all enjoying the revelations of our fellow posters.

Sun

I have attended many retreats which just helped me focus for awhile on my faith and not on my family raising and woes. They also gave me much solace while raising children in the 60's and 70's and 80's. They usually lasted for three days--a weekend which started on Friday night and I always felt renewed after attending. It was probably mostly due to getting away from the family but,hey, it worked. A much needed but brief respite.

I find myself feeling constricted or trapped in a church today, whereas, long ago, I was conforted while attending services. Must be my age??? Hmmmmm!

Now that I am older I have that same feeling of being "constricted." Some churches do not give their members the right to listen or learn new ideas from other denominations. The faith chosen is the one and only way. Usually we choose the religion our parents and grandparents chose before us. Some people haven't ever questioned or thought about what their church teaches. I want the chance to question. If I can't question traditions, I feel "trapped."

Maybe the idea of whether to use Christmas or holiday is a good thing. At least the question wake us up to question actions which are done over and over again. Our questions will lead to more enlightenment, I think.

...and read this book, to pass the time pleasantly till Latin class starts again...

First of all...I don't think I will 'catch up'...I started reading yesterday early evening and the first thing I did this morning was roll over and grab the book again...

I did stop for breaks. I had to. The book seems to have either reached out and grabbed me at many levels or made me read on warily so as not to fall into a trap. I haven't read enough yet to have time to figure out why I'm having these rather visceral responses.

On one of my breaks I watched a show I've been following about women in prison and I wondered, "Why am I reading books like this by this seemingly [to me] ingenuous, yet completely engaging, author...why am I not volunteering my time teaching some poor unfortunate young woman in prison how to read?

I don't know how you have all come so far in just 1/2 a month. I feel as though I must read all of the authors other 12 books before I can even get an accurate 'read' on him.

Well, that's where I am this morning. I did try a couple of chapters randomly and they make sense even without having read the preceding pages.

So if someone can tell me which chapters we are discussing, I may try to just jump in and stay with the group discussion in that way.

Otherwise, I feel I may remained trapped between all the "me's"...

...the little girl who learned as a child to love the baby Jesus...

...the woman and mother who has agonized along with her children when they had to survive the results of standing for what they believed in at any cost...

...the woman from the "Jesus Christ Super Star" days who then and still, to this moment, could never understand or accept that if all this was so predestined then why was all that pain necessary and even moreso, why did Judas have to 'take the rap'?! Who would plan such cruelty?

But then I get enticed back into the web of narrative which is why I feel I MUST know this author and his motivations better.

As a life-long student with a definitely anthropological bent, I do love human history in the oral tradition. Lots of sorting to do here.

Thanks for listening. I do hope you don't all think by this time that I'm a 'madwoman'...well, I am, but in a kind of rational way!! (smile)

Peace, Alliemae

So before I continue in the book I think I'll read over the resources.

Meanwhile, what chapter are we discussing today?

Thanks,

Peace, Alliemae

Do not relight a candle whose flame has drowned in its own excess of wax

This quotation from this morning's paper has many meanings.....

As did Jesus' parables.

It is my duty as a discussion leader to attempt to keep on a schedule of the book we have at hand; although at times it seems an unpleasant duty as I have read all of your posts and loved the byways that your comments have provoked.

Could we begin again with Chapter 15 on page 161?

Isn't the title - THE CROOKED CEO.... - an appropriate one as we see pictures in the media of those well-groomed executives being tried and sent to prison?

And the first parable that Cox has chosen? He states:

"Jesus seemed to be commending a sneaky, self-serving manager, a charlatan who sounded as though he might well have headed a division of Enron. What was going on?

First, I did not know for sure myself, despite having read half a dozen more or less credible interpretations of it. I wanted them (the students) to be perplexed and at a loss, to have to rearrange their own thinking, if not about the whole world, then at some of their preconceptions about Jesus."

"Perplexity and confusion are not obstacles to learning."

That was comforting to read! Was it to you?

The prodigal son parable was much clearer and easily understood; being a parent I would do the same. A few of the students questioned even this one.

But the last parable about the King and his son's wedding is just as confusing to understand as was the first one Cox commented on in this chapter. The students, and myself, were again in the dark about the meaning, however this resonates with me:

"growing up means learning to live with unsatisfying and incomplete endings, with people whose lives are cut off before they should be, or spin out in unexpected directions and sometimes crash in flames. No matter how ordinary they are, all our lives end with a kind of question mark as we reach the threshold of the final mystery."

Oh, that is so true!!!

I am attempting to get through the book - THE PURPOSE-DRIVEN LIFE by Rick Warren - who attempts to answer the question "What on earth am I here for?" The book was a gift so I must read it, has anyone else read it? If so, please share your opinion.

My TIME magazine just arrived with an article titled "The Mysteries of Joseph, Jesus' father." I'll read it today and if I find anything interesting I'll report back.

Love to you all today, thanks so much for this discussion!

Ella,

I have the book THE PURPOSE-DRIVEN LIFE by Rick Warren. I have not read it yet. What is my purpose? What an interesting question. Now I am back to chapter 15.

Sorry to have digressed...and in such a personal and excessive manner.

Thanks, Ella, for giving the Chapter Number.

Peace, Alliemae

I've been thinking for years that I'd really like to get into a group where we could question, discus, digest, think about all that stuff i learned in church, but as Hats said it's very tough to do in the institutional church. I too feel restraint in the building and seldom go, except at this season when i go to hear the music and generally ignore the rest of the service.

I loved your post Alliemae, don't apologize. One of the best thing about these discussions is the tangents that we go on. I learn so much from them. But I have a very eclectic mind, some people are bothered by groups not staying "on track." I have found the people in these discussions willing to stray because we all seem to interested in learning new things......back to the book......jean

If you have anything to be sorry about, Alliemae, it's the reserve you put on this book. I should have known when I was informed that I couldn't get a renewal on my copy. What do I do know? Guess I'll just lurk. I can see the benefit of that. I'll let the rest of you do the serious thinking. The 'perplexity and confusion' in getting at the truth, or wisdom, or guidelines to moral reasoning, are enough to make one despair. I just love all the 'digressions' in this morning's posts. There's something in each one that deserves a reply, or acknowledgement.

The first acknowledgement must go to Ella for trying to keep us on track. It's good to be reminded of the purpose the author had in mind in writing his book. After that...well, I'm glad you mentioned the TIME article on Joseph, the step-father of Jesus. I've glanced at it and have noticed that Joseph in this marvellous narrative is, simply put, marginalized. That has serious implications for me.

Thanks, Babi, for your reply to the problem of implicating Jesus in the affairs of men when they go to war with each other. The Prince of Peace cannot be used as an excuse for societal upheavals such as war. It's true Jesus's peace, on the strength of many testimonials, passeth understanding. But what about the misery along the way for the individual soul, for whom it is intended? How about the battleground in the hearts of those who are challenged by the obstacles on 'the way'? Only believe, the seeker is told. I wish Jesus would lead by example on that one.

I'm struck by how often he sought a retreat. But there seemed no escape for him. Satan followed him wherever he went. Elevated places did seem to work best for him, and I can relate to that. All good things come down from above. We tend to look up whenever we feel in need. And look down when we despair.

I'm all for retreats. Except, perhaps, the Loyola Exercises type, if they begin by a serious contemplation of sin and evil. That sounds like pure and simple pre-conditioning to me, for what is to follow. But they say the Exercises discipline or even galvanize the mind.

Strange to hear of Sun's experience in Sunday School when she attempted a 'the emperor has no clothes' observation. Or did I misunderstand that? My problem is the extent to which Jesus has been dressed up so ceremoniously by his followers. One hardly recognizes the real Jesus. And that makes it pretty difficult for willing listeners to 'believe'. It seems to me that Cox with his digressions is trying to counteract that.

I have so much more to say. And now that I've returned my borrowed copy I'll have the time. Unless I get caught up too much in the election campaigning here in Canada. We're right in the middle of it. The issue for many is the lack of law and order in government. And thereby hangs a tale. We wondered last week whether the Harvard morals course has borne fruit. Well, it has, seemingly. We have standing for election, in the riding south of mine, a professor from Harvard. It puzzles many of us why he would give up a successful teaching career at Harvard to get into politics. It would make sense if he has ideas about cleaning up immorality in government. Perhaps he has been auditing Prof Cox's lectures, and taken things to heart

There has also been a post about an intent to consider how Gandhi was affected by the teachings of Jesus. I for one would be delighted to hear more about that.

Was it a cop-out when Martin Luther King suggested that the teachings of Jesus work well among family and friends and neighbors, but not in the world at large? To quote Cox on MLK, and the Sermon on the Mount:

'But, the great reformer insisted, to try to apply it to the public realm was to defy the structures God had ordained to impose order on civic life. It was to undercut the responsibility of the magistrate who was not only permitted but was also commanded to wield the sword when necessary.' p126

Obviously MLK preferred to remain within Constitutional bounds, or fall back on it. I read something interesting the other day, in a critical English commentary on the less happy, perhaps immoral aspects of US society. He saw some kind of Devil in that right of every individual to a pursuit of happiness. Weren't we meant to be happy...talk about digressions...I must take a break for lunch.

quote from Annie Dillard - poet, author.

That business of the man thrown out of the wedding is a tough one. It has always puzzled me, too. One thing I considered was a custom of that time, of presenting guests at a great banquet with robes. Only the rich could afford to do this for a large number of guests, of course.

If such robes were given to each guest as they entered, the king's puzzlement at seeing someone there without one is understandable. His approach was friendly enough; he called the guest 'friend', and asked for an explanation. The man said nothing whatever. Would this perhaps indicate that this man was not invited, but someone who had slipped in by another way. Pure speculation, of course.

The closing verse, "For many are called, but few are chosen.", seems wholly irrelevant. [The versions I am most familiar with use 'called' rather than invited.] The same verse appears in Matt. 20:14, where it is more appropriate. I can't help wondering if the appearance of the same verse two chapters later was an error.

In the parable about the dishonest steward, it seems to me the whole point there was the closing words: For in dealing with their own kind the children of this world are more astute than the children of light." For a worldly man, this guy was doing a good job of looking after himself. I think Rabbi Jesus was saying he would like to see the 'children of light' as astute in promoting the Kingdom.

Think how different that approach is to those churches we have been criticizing for discouraging questions and contrary opinions. Rabbi Jesus apparently would not be happy to see us acting like dumb sheep.

Babi

Alliemae, I enjoy and gain a lot from your posts too. Keep those posts coming!

Jonathan - Your: "One hardly recognizes the real Jesus."

I often wonder if we do not see, or find the Jesus we want to see or find, by projecting our expectation on him. Much the same way a young man or woman see what they want to see when seeking a life partner, with half closed misty eyes.

About the man at the wedding, Cox or someone in his class suggested that the implication was that "one should always be prepared", or something similar. I personally remember thinking the poor man was cast out, or criticized because he was dressed poorly and was outclassed by the other guest in a snobby fashion.

I wouldn't have thought of the possibility that he was an "uninvited guest" as Babi suggested. They were "good and bad alike" invited off the streets to come to the wedding since the invited guest had not showed up. So what more could be expected? I wonder if something is lost in translation sometimes, like the punch line is missing or was misunderstood in some of the more difficult parables. (Sorry, I'm not trying to be tacky).

Why The Crowds Came? To be healed, much as people flock to present day "healers" and I don't just mean "Preachers", I mean Medical Experts, too, all trained to heal. A few chapters back we discussed the evils of being "rich", but now we have the daughters of both the rich and the poor being healed; the Rabbi had compassion for all.

Sun

my PBS station is repeating "the question of God: C.S.LEwis and Einstein" just in case anyone who's here wants to see it.....jean

I checked and it is not scheduled to be on our PBS station...maybe at a different time. Will have to watch for it.

I really enjoyed Tom Key's one man show on C.S. Lewis on Stage in the Man Behind Narnia. It was here in Tyler a week ago last Sunday night and played to the largest night time church crowd I've seen in a long time. Excellent performance. Decided I will have to get "Mere Christianity", one of the Lewis books...I missed it entirely and have never read it.

Back to Cox's WJCtoH.

Sun

Thanks Mable and Hats for your kind words.

I understand the posts better than the book, its premise and this author; they give me a lot of insight into book. Thanks all!

Peace, Alliemae

Quoting Sun - "Christ still lives and is very much present for some of us."

Wonderful posts from all of you, isn't it great that we can all come together with our thoughts this season?

I would love to take the time to quote each of you and comment along with you on the book and other subjects, but I have no time today; instead I will meekly (blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth!) suggest that we continue with our scheduled chapters:

WHY THE CROWDS CAME As one of you commented they came to be healed, of course!!!! Does this warrant all that Cox has put into this chapter? What did his students learn from his teachings?

THE ARMAGEDDON SYNDROME This chapter reminds us of age-old predictions - I've heard them preached by relatives, ministers, etc. how about you? Did anyone get caught up in the LEFT BEHIND series?

End-time "eschatology?" I must look that word up when I get the time. Trust Harvard professors to come up with that one!!!!!! He mentions several authors, are you familiar with any of them? Hal Lindsey's THE LATE GREAT PLANET EARTH sounds familiar, did any of you read it?

Do you believe in the anti-Christ? Is Cox belittling many of those who do? Should we?

Just a few thoughts early this Thursday morning. Have a wonderful day!

Yesterday, I heard a radio program concerning Jesus and where the biblical writers might have been translated wrong and why. Very interesting author. He's a professor in Wisconson, I believe. Darn, I can't remember the title.

I am so wrapped up in the holidays plus have a bad cold and our DIL is getting the trailer ready for the folks in LA in the middle of an ice storm that we are having. Worry, worry, worry! Well, she and her friend are in God's hands so I won't worry too much.

I do come in here and linger every day. The posts are so interesting!

I've been an a retreat and I'd say the ultimate goal is to help you turn to the good or the better life and the retreat immerses you into the realities revealed to each of us by Jesus. The goal is admirable.

That being said, I agree with Jonathan that the highly structured exercises of Saint Ignatius of Loyola is a bit over the top. I think the total control of an individual retreatant precludes the ability to meditate which is basically a getting out of the ordinary mind and away from the material (and all the steps a retreatant takes are part of the material world). Too much.

Meditari, from which meditation comes, means 'to be ruminated over; chewed over'.

I don't think much true meditation occurs if a retreatant is worrying whether they skipped a step, or prayed wrong, or ....

Sunknow, what you do is what I call a "pamper party" which I like to treat myself to as often as I can. A pamper party can be as simple as watering the flower, or popping corn and watching a fun movie. We all need to pamper ourselves for our happiness and for the benefit of those around us.

Marvelle

Jesus used his parables to startle his listeners, to startle them from their usual, ordinary way of thinking and separate them from the material world, out of this emptiness they must make sense of the 'real world' with their imagination.

Here's an exercise which shows one way to reach the meditative state (many different religions use such techniques):

"The Gates of Holiness" from Hayyim Vital (16th Century)

You must be alone, so that your contemplation not be disturbed. In your mind, cultivate aloneness to the utmost. Strip your body from your soul, as if you do not feel that you are clothed in matter at all -- you are entirely soul. The more you strip yourself of material being, the more powerful your comprehension.

If you sense any sound or movement that breaks your meditation or if any material imagining arises within you, then your soul's contemplation will be severed from the upper worlds. You will attain nothing, since supernal holiness does not abide with anyone attached by even a hair to the material realm. Therefore prophecy or the holy spirit is called deep sleep, dream, or vision....

If you wish to attain aloneness and to receive the holy spirit, regard every insight you gain and every light you perceive as darkness. When you see that you have attained a little, concentrate more deeply in your meditation, until you experience a pure sprit speaking within you.

More later -- Marvelle

Sorry for the interruption. I'm using a borrowed computer and don't have unlimited use. The rest of "The Gates of Holiness":

When you see that you have attained a little, concentrate more deeply in you experience a pure spirit speaking within you words of... wisdom, devotion, purity, and holiness -- on its own, without your will. Having attained them, impel yourself to draw forth the holy spirit often .... [then pray to God that you may discover him, not for yourself but for all. Ask that you be enlightened and with pure heart with a steadfast spirit]. Draw forth the spirit until you see and know for certain that it is bound to you perpetually, inseparably, engraved within you.

Sanctify your limbs and adorn them with good deeds, making yourself a throne for the divine presence... When you do a good deed, you sanctify yourself.

End of "The Gates of Holiness"

Meditation, most of all, is a method of finding a way to live a better life. One can meditate whatever one's belief or nonbelief. And there are so many ways to reach that point where you can discard your everyday mind and enter another realm with your imagination, a realm where one considers all aspects of life around you and a realm where one can make truly conscious choices.

Now, I am still grappling with Jesus' parables and meditation and being able to use imagination, as Jesus did, to reach moral choices/decisions. I think one issue is realizing -- of being aware of the fact -- that one is actively making a choice, of being conscious of it, and reflecting or meditating on it. It is this awareness that is the most difficult thing for me.

Marvelle

Jonathan, I love your question because it made me think. Deep inside I want to say that Jesus ideas brought more peace than contention. Then, after reading the healing chapter, I thought maybe His ideas and actions did bring conflict before peace. Anytime new ideas are brought before people, there is a desire to wrench away or pull back. This feeling of anxiety comes because of the fear of change.

Jesus came bringing different teachings. Surely, the Jewish or Gentile people did not just gladly accept these ideas and throw away their old thoughts and actions. There must have been some Resistance.

Then, ELLA asked WHY THE CROWDS I think the crowds streamed after Jesus, not because they were willing to accept His ideas hook, line and sinker but because hearing His new philosophy tintillated their minds. Then, with His new ideas, Jesus could also heal. Who doesn't want to have a healing of the emotions or of the body? Harvey Cox could look around his classroom and see many students who needed or would desire healing.

Harvey Cox is honest. He admits that talking about healing to his students made him a bit uncomfortable. I liked his honesty.

With your posts I have a better understanding of meditation.

Marvelle's Quote below

"Meditation, most of all, is a method of finding a way to live a better life. One can meditate whatever one's belief or nonbelief. And there are so many ways to reach that point where you can discard your everyday mind and enter another realm with your imagination, a realm where one considers all aspects of life around you and a realm where one can make truly conscious choices."

After this week's assignment we have some one hundred more pages to discuss. ELLA is right and I think we ought to make every effort to do so and focus at least on the main points.

It is wonderfully gratifying that this book was chosen -- simply because we would not ordinarily discuss the topic elsewhere. Alas, our time to discuss it in its entirety is limited to 4 weeks.
It is tempting to explore related issues but - please forgive me for saying it - if we do so, we shortchange our book and the task we have set for ourselves.

Some thoughts on the chapters later.

Does anyone know which version of the Bible Cox is quoting from?

Thanks...Peace, Alliemae

ALLIEMAE, he mentions the St. James version on several occasions, but it is not clear whether all quotations, including those in the headers of the respective chapters, are taken from that source.

In Chapter 16, "Why the Crowds Came", he says in the second sentence " "They came because he had gained a reputation as a healer."

Chapter 17, "The Armageddon Syndrome" goes into (to me) surprising detail about the hugely successful "Left Behind" series. While I read Hal Lindsey's 1969 bestseller "The Late Great Planet Earth" and another one by him whose title I've forgotten, I was only dimly aware of the "Left Behind" books, which have apparently spawned a series for juveniles. Based on what Cox tells us here about the content of this fictional apocalyptic imagery, I will never be tempted to read any of it because

" ...today, after the advent of weapons of mass destruction, when the blazing man-made apocalypse is all too real, the human race must discard this imagery, whether it be secular or religious, once and for all. The danger of such language is that those who long for the apocalpyse sometimes tire of waiting for he divine to act. Like Denis Michael Rohan, who set fire to the mosque (on the Temple Mount in 1969), they themselves take on he task of saving by destroying."
pg. 198. For Rohan, see pg. 190.

I had never before heard that warning in those terms.

At the beginning of Chapter 17, in Mark 13:1-7 when the disciples commented on the huge stones and fine buildings, and Jesus said: "You see these great buildings? Not one stone will be left upon another; they will all be thrown down."

And so they have been....down through time, through wars, and through the ages....the stones have all been thrown down, walls have fallen, even cities totally distroyed......some of them, more than once.

Do you think anyone alive at that time, even Jesus, would have imagined that the earth would still be here after all these Centuries? Surely every thing written in the Scriptures was not a dire prediction of some future event.

The disciples were concerned for their future then....and mankind continues seek answers to what lies ahead.

About the LEFT BEHIND Series....I consider it no more than Science-Fiction, which I have never had much interest in. I know people that have read every book, I haven't....but think I may have seen a TV movie about one of them, according to what someone told me. Didn't care for the movie.

I might enjoy reading about the prophecies of Nostradamus, or about Astrology and predictions of all sorts....but I never take them seriously. I suspect that considering the long history of the world that we have records of, and have studied, that we have a better understanding now, of what the future might hold than the people that lived in Biblical times could even imagine.

I would like to be able to say that I have read the entire book of Revelations and studied it...but I never made it through the entire book. If one was allowed to chose the books you think 'belong' in the Bible, Revelations would the the one book I would leave out.

Sun

Sun it depends on whether you believe in prophetic dreams or not whether you believe the Book of Revelation. My husband a hale and hearty 34yr old had a prophetic dream with religious connotations and he was told he would die young. He was diagnosed with terminal cancer at 43. He had no symptoms right up til time of diagnosis. I believe in prophecy. My husband did have very strong religous beliefs. The dream was in technicolour and very vivid. He was shown what it was like to be taken up to Heaven in the dream. Believe it or not. He and I did.

My son gave me the first book of the LEFT BEHIND series to read a year or so ago. He really liked the book.I have not read the book or series yet.

With all that is going on in the world, huge catastrophes like the Tsunami and Hurricane Katrina, the earthquake in Pakistan and the war in Iraq, I find myself thinking about the future of the world. What kind of world will our children and grandchildren live in?

Harvey Cox writes "Popular novels based on end-time themes are not new in English speaking countries....Even though the surface details of the plots differ from age to age, they all cope with contemporary anxieties."

I do believe in the Second Coming of Jesus. I choose not to listen to churches or leaders who try to paste down a specific date. I do not know if God the Father and Jesus intended for us to know the exact day of the year for the return of Jesus. I suppose not knowing the date would keep us from becoming lazy in spiritual growth. I just do not think the inspired writers told all there was to tell in the Holy Scriptures.

Sun, I feel also that the disciples thought about the future and had questions about it. Like us, they lived during hard times. During there time the Romans were occupying their land, Leprosy was rampant. People who lived during the time of Jesus faced their own hardships and difficulties. No wonder the disciples and people longed to hear about a new world government or system.

I find it very easy to follow Ella's guidelines. In her comments, Ella always leaves us with questions to consider during the day or days. These questions lead us right to what chapters we should read for that time.

I do try to follow Ella's easy guidance through the chapters she finds important. With Traude's gentle reminder, I will try even harder to stay on track and not go wandering down another path.

Harvey Cox writes

"It is perfectly clear that the mobs of people who thronged Jesus did not seek him out to hear his message. They came because he had gained a reputation as a healer."

I don't know. I can not separate the acts of healing from the words of Jesus. I think some of the people came for healing and some came to hear his message, a message called Good News.

I have NOT been able to take my head out of "The Armageddon Syndrome!"

I am so glad I took Ella's suggestion to us about staying focused. I was definitely suffering from the 'lump in the snake' syndrome when I first got the book! Thank you, Ella!

Thanks, Traude, for trying to help me with the Bible version. Cox's quotations just seemed so much more readable than my version.

It's amazing that we humans have any life at all, what with wondering about the "befores" and the "what's gonna happen's"...We seem to miss so much of the NOW! I was constantly reminded of Sun's lovely picture of her retreat. Is that not nicer than 'before' and 'some day/one day'?

I had never heard of the "Left Behind" novels till reading this book. Now I understand "Millenianarianists" so much better. In my undergrad days (at the young age of 48-51 years old) we had a guest speaker from U of Chicago discussing his thesis,"Islam and Millenianarianism" and I believe it is the Shi'a Moslems who believe in the second coming of the Mehdi or Mahdi (depending on transliterations of Arabic).

And then, we consider the apes inferior to us as they sit in the sun in their trees, enjoying each other, grooming each other...nurturing each other...each taking care of any and every child...

Peace, Alliemae

YIKES! Now I'm getting paranoid...

Didn't this president author the 'No child LEFT BEHIND' policy?

In reading Cox's comments on the politics and economics of the 'end days' believers as well as the 'code analysts', I hope the above isn't in code...

Peace, Alliemae

Hats writes: "I do try to follow Ella's easy guidance through the chapters she finds important. With Traude's gentle reminder, I will try even harder to stay on track and not go wandering down another path."

Hats, you don't wander that much - no more than the rest of us do - so don't fret or beat yourself up. I always enjoy hearing from you.

As for myself, from the start of the discussion I was interested in the topic of the book which was "can we make moral choices following the example of Jesus and how did he choose?" I'm not going to post my political thoughts or make judgments on other persons/events. But that doesn't mean that I would chastise anyone for expressing their judgments.

I'm grappling with the "how" of choices because it is so easy to keep repeating judgments without considering them with fresh eyes (the religious 'empty mind') or sometimes I may have forgotten that making a choice is a possibility, that there is more than one option.

Marvele

Marvele - Actually there are 'many' options....there may be three or four choices available sometimes. You're correct to think we should remember to consider them.

Staying on track: Ella is doing a good job trying to guide us in the right direction, and keep us moving along to the next chapter. That's what she's suppose to do. I do not feel that Traude's reminder was all that gentle, but what I think is not all that earth shaking.

I do get the feeling that I am speaking out a bit too much, so maybe I'd best cool it and let other's express their thoughts.

But first one more remark best left unsaid:

Alliemae - I was surprised that you had not heard of the LEFT BEHIND books, but was absolutely delighted that you made the connection between the book and the No Child LEFT BEHIND policy. You made my day..!!

Peace to you, too....I will now take a small retreat.

Sun

A lot of what Cox has been saying is about shaking us up and making us look at things with 'fresh eyes', isn't it, MARVELLE? So I guess we can see he is succeeding in that aim.

I read, if I remember correctly, three of the "Left Behind" series. By then, I was beginning to feel that a very great deal was being built on a very small foundation. Talk about inserting imagination into understanding the scriptures!

It's funny how differently people react to beliefs in the 'end of the age' and the second coming. Cox showed one extreme with the young man who tried to set fire to the Dome of the Rock. I recall a co-worker who complained that his son was 'dropping out' on his education, refusing to seek a job, and otherwise sitting around doing nothing. He argued that everything was coming to an end, so there was no point in starting anything new. My suggestion was that he tell his son that Jesus said to "occupy until I come", not to be occupied with his coming! My understanding is that until He actually shows up, we are supposed to be carrying on with life.

I find myself somewhat bemused with those who believe the Dome of the Rock will have to go, because a new Jewish temple has to be erected there, supposedly to fulfill scripture. After all, there were three Jewish temples in a space of a little over 1000 years, and all three were destroyed. The Dome of The Rock mosque has been standing 1300 years. [No conclusions drawn here; just pointing it out.]

Babi

The apocalyptic beliefs of those around me certainly added some excitement to my childhood. So I can imagine the thrills of the eschatological imaginings in the Left Behind series of books - for those seeking release or retreat from a mundane world. May the star over Bethlehem shine brightly for them this coming Holy Night. And hark! The angels ARE singing. Rereading the greatest story ever told sure calls up a lot of ghosts of a time when the world seemed young.

The posts of all of you seem so inevitable, given the nature of the book. I believe Prof Cox would encourage these musings. All of them. I'm surprised he's a bit impatient with the riffing in the Left Behind series. It seems to me the authors are doing precisely what he recommends. Imagining narrative. Likewise with Anne Rice's Christ The Lord, which has just appeared.

I've put another reserve on the Cox book. There are four other copies in the system. I don't know why they refused a renewal on the one I had out. Must be someone in the library not happy about my posts.

Well, in the meantime I've started reading a bio of Alexander the Great that I have had around for a while. What a surprise to read that Homer's poems were still, in AtheG's time, regarded by many Greeks as a source of ethical thinking. It's well-known that Alexander always carried his ILIAD with him, and tried his utmost to emulate, to follow in the footsteps of Achilles, the grandson of the god Zeus, and Alexander's own ancestor.

But what a difference for anyone wanting to imitate Jesus in his search for peace for everyone within and without. Achilles radiates the glories, the honors, and the rewards of combativeness.

To imitate Jesus. I suppose we've all heard of Thomas a Kempis's 'IMITATION OF CHRIST'. That amazing spiritual guide composed half a millenium ago. Everybody was reading it. It has many fine things in it. And some things that are bewildering. As for example, the opening lines off Chapter 12:

"To many this seemeth a hard saying, - Deny thyself, take up thy cross, and follow Jesus.

"But much harder will it be to hear that last word, - Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire."

That sounds just too merciless. I can't imagine Jesus saying that. Perhaps it's just excessive riffing on someone's part.

SUN, there are three very capable discussion leaders in charge here, and it would be highly inappropriate for me to post "reminders", gentle or otherwise. No interference was intended in the least.
But as a DL myself, I know the drive to do full and complete justice to a book (of fiction or nonfiction alike) within the allotted time, and I have experienced the pressure it inevitably brings.

My post was well-intentioned. I am sorry if it was misunderstood.

Isaiah 7-14: Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son and will call him Emmanuel."

Malachi 3:1 - "See, I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me."

CHAPTER 18: The Transfiguration and the Prophet's Night Journey

This mountain experience, Cox believes, is reminiscent of Moses' climb to Mount Sinai - it connects the Old and New Testaments; do you agree? I didn't realize, if I ever knew, the similarities between Moses and Jesus and, furthermore, Cox states that the Muslims sometimes identify Mohamet with Moses, Mormons think of Brigham Young.

Is it too much to hope that the world can be united in some religious faith?

What are your comments on this chapter? How do you feel about mountains? Are they inviting or threatening?

Here are two critques of the LEFT BEHIND series of books which may interest you:

Chicago Sun-Times

Salon Books

"The largest change in my approach to the study of religion in recent years has come about because of the challenge of global religious pluralism and the increasing religious diversity of America."

What should we make of this in America? Or Canada, or in North America?

When was the first time you saw an unusual church in your neighborhood and what was it? A mosque? A Hindu temple? A Buddhist pagoda? A Lithanian church? What is the largest church you have ever been in? Was it awesome or did you wonder why it was built and by whom and at what expense?

I know I ask too many questions and I appreciate your patience and your kindness to me.

But it is such a fascinating book; I am all the more convinced I must take a course on the world's religions - comparative religion - I've always wanted to and now I want to sit in a classroom and listen for myself what a professor and the students have to say.

Your posts have been so interesting to read; thank you all - it's a grand conversation we are having, don't you think?

I was also unaware of the comparison between Moses and Jesus till reading this book.

I was aware of the importance of all three: Moses, Elijah and Jesus in the Moslem religion. Elijah is one of the more popular non-Arabic names used by Moslems, case in point: Elijah Mohammed.

One of the most striking churches I've ever seen is the Mosque in Washington, D.C. It is quite large and it's very impressive when the call to prayer is heard five times in a day from its minaret right there in center city D.C.

One of the most hopeful and remarkable sights I've seen in churches was in Istanbul, Turkey in a little area on a highway that goes along the shore of the Bosphorus. The 'sempte' (or town/village) is called Orta Koy, Orta meaning 'middle' and right there in a row are three small and very old buildings: one a Byzantine church, another a Jewish Temple, and the third a small, very old Mosque. At the end of the three, where the mosque ends, there is an outdoor tea garden where it is not uncommon to see the leaders of these three places of worship having a tea or coffee at the bank of the Bosphorus together. So yes, Ella, I think there's a chance for people to become united...not perhaps in the same religion but in their respect for each others'.

One last thing: There is a tiny chapel on a lovely hillside close to Ephesus in Turkey which was built at the site where it is said that St. John the Apostle cared for Mary, the mother of Jesus in her old age. Along the walls of the chapel are verses from the Koran about Mary. The Moslems truly venerate Mary. I haven't checked this out but it is said that Mary is mentioned with more frequency in the Koran than she is in the Bible.

I just finished reading about the Night Journey and the next chapter and am more and more tempted to, after we complete this discussion, read more of the books and the authors Cox makes reference to.

Peace, Alliemae

Traude - Your "post was well-intentioned. I am sorry if it was misunderstood"

Same here, so please don't worry about it. You were just supporting the DLs. I suspect I felt a little guilty about getting off subject, which I do sometimes without intending to.

Back to my retreat....will return in a few days.

Sun

In Turkey recently my daughter sat having dinner with her Muslim fiance, a christian couple and a Jewish couple. There seems to be tolerance amongst the religious groups there. The Govt is coming down hard on fundamentalists and extremists. They do not want any sort of fundamentalism taking hold and causing dissension.

The young couples were discussing the current world situation and all said "Why can't everyone in the world be like us?"

Carolyn

I WANT TO GO TO TURKEY!!!!

I never knew mountains played such an important part in the Bible stories and parables. After reading the Transfiguration chapter, I do see that many different religions use mountains in their religious stories. Thank goodness I did not have to climb a mountain to see Jesus. I have a fear of heights. I do enjoy the beauty and majesty of a mountain. I just have to enjoy the beauty from below. I would love to overcome this fear because there is so much beauty to enjoy from the summit of a mountain.

Believe it or not I met my husband in the Poconos. I loved the mountain and had not a bit of fear. My sister was with me. She hid in the bottom of the car. She had the fear of mountains, not me. I wonder if phobias are genetic. If so, after her death, she passed her fear to me.

I think the world will become united in faith at some future time. That is my optimistic hope and prayer. Prof. Cox gives a story of a Palestinian and a Jew talking peacefully and not fighting.

The problem is that getting to the point where we can all agree about a religion, I can not see how that would happen in an easy fashion. I can see long years of squabbling about just where Jesus and/or Mahomet might have died or been resurrected. To make matters worse each place has its archaeological proofs. How in the world do you get pass all of the oral histories, relics, Holy books, etc.?

Alliemae and Carolyn I enjoyed reading your personal stories about you or someone else traveling abroad.

If perchance, you are looking for something to do today, hahahahaa, you can read a few Internet sites on Jerusalem and the Temple that Jesus entered and drove out all the bad guys. This is our next chapter to discuss: BRIDGE BURNING AND STREET THEATRE, Chapater 19.

Jesus was a real rabble rouser, somewhat similar to Martin Luther King and Ghandi perhaps?

The crowds followed all of them, how were they dissimilar? I haven't reviewed the chapter yet, but I will sometime today. Any thoughts?

The Temple

The Temple

The Temple

In skimming those sites I read the following:

"Jerusalem has, for different reasons, become central to the sacred geography of Jews, Christians, and Muslims."

For the Jews, Jerusalem is the place God chose in order to make Himself accessible to the people of His covenant.

For Christians, Jerusalem is the place where Jesus was crucified: an act of divine self-sacrifice that opened, for human beings, the way to redemption from sin.

For Muslims, Jerusalem is the place from which Muhammad ascended to heaven, receiving instructions from God on the proper mode of prayer.

If there is ever to be a reconciliation between nations/religions it would have to take place here, do you agree? I don't have much hope of that in our lifetime - or ever.

Has anyone visited Jerusalem?

Back later, ella

Ella I think it must be marvellous to walk in the feet of Jesus in Jerusalem! There are many people who have been on the pilgrimage to the Holy Land but I am not one of them.

Another thing I have always wanted to do is to go to Mt Sinai on a camel trek with the Bedouin. You get to camp out one night in the desert and sleep under the stars. I know young people who have done this. The Bedouin who do this trek even know where NZ is! Amazing.

Carolyn

Traude, I know for a fact that your post was well-intended.

However, we haven't strayed from the topic so don't understand why you felt the need, as a fellow reader, to post as you did. In so many discussions I've felt the subject book was either ignored, and often not even read once, by many posters who talked only around the book. I haven't done that, neither has Hats or Sunknow, as we're following the book's topic closely.

Each of us finds what is important in the book and we address it in our own way. Let us let it be?

Marvelle

Thanks, Marvelle. That would seem to be a fine parameter to keep in mind with this book.

And I have to tell you how interesting I found your two posts on The Gates of Holiness, by Hayyim Vital. I've never heard of that one, but it reminded me of the Imitation.

Hats, being alone at the top of a mountain can be awesomely spiritual. One can feel the greatest peace, as well as the greatest uneasiness. I'll never forget the time I was completely surrounded by a solid wall of white. I felt an absolute solitude, until a little bird flew out of the thick cloud and alighted a few feet away. I threw it a crumb from the quick lunch I was having before starting on my way down. It took the crumb and vanished. But it was back in a minute for more. And a dozen more times. I was happy to share my sandwich with this little creature that was providing such wonderful company.

But that wasn't the end of it. Thirty years earlier a military plane had crashed into the summit of this mountain, and the crew of four were killed. A plaque marking the spot was attached to a rock face behind me now, hidden in that whiteness. I passed it, as I always do, on my way down, I've been up there many times. What a shocker to see all the crumbs scattered about on the flat surface just below the marker.

The mountain is the Wright peak in the Adirondacks. The plane was heading for Plattsburg at night in heavy weather.

Jonathan, thank you for sharing your personal experience on this particular mountain. Your experience is very, very moving to me and one I will remember.

ELLA, I am loving this discussion and like your asking questions. It prompts us to look again at something we might have missed.

ALLIEMAE, I read about your travel memories and sigh with envy. Like Ella, I WANTA GO!

Now I have to go catch up on the reading.

Babi

I also would like to say thank you Marvelle. I am learning so much from the books and the posts.

Ella, I have never been to Jerusalem. I would love to go there. Thank you for the links given today. I have just begun going through each one. What a wealth of material!

I am going to bookmark the links in Favorites. Then, at a convenient time, I will read more of the material.

ELLA, I totally agree with everyone that this is a wonderful book. We could not have found a more appropriate choice for this season and this time.
Thank you for your questions, there can never be too many of them, there're always new things to discover, a fresh look to take, a new association of ideas, new understanding. In that sense the chapters we are discussing this week are of special significanc IMHO.

The parallelism of Jesus' transfiguration to Moses' and Mohammed's climb to the mountain top is striking.

I have been in three large cathedrals : der Kölner Dom = the Cathedral in Cologne, Germany; Washington Cathedral on Wisconsin Ave.; and the Temple of the Church of Latter-Day Saints also in Washington, which non-Mormons were allowed to view before it was officiall consecrated and subsequently closed to non-Mormons. That was more than thirty-odd years ago when we still lived in Northern Virginia.

Germany has built many mosques over the decades for the Turkish "guest workers", as they were called, who came in the wake of Germany's Economic Miracle in the fifties. Germany, like France, has a sizable Muslim population.

...but is a comment around the posts which I would feel rude not answering...

Ella, BaBi and anyone else who wants to go to Turkey, wait for my legs and back to get better and we can all plan a trip (they are not very handicap access friendly over there yet, or at least not up to 1989). (smile)

Actually, I do think that it is a country which does show at many turns, however, how the parables of Jesus can be followed for the good of all concerned.

Peace, Alliemae

No, Jonathan, I have never heard of the Imitation of Christ - 500 years ago everyone was reading it? - Back when the world seemed so young! Now here it is in the Cyber Library and the world is old?

IMITATION OF CHRIST

Speaking of meditations, which Marvelle has talked about, and in which I agree, for it has over the years been of great help (I have a 30-minute tape which I have memorized but I like to listen to anyway) I see that Book Two of the above concentrates on the Interior Life. Have you read it, Marvelle?

Alliemae, I have a story about the call to prayer of the Muslims. My daughter was in Saudi Arabia in a medical unit for six months during the Persian Gulf War taking care, not of USA soldiers, but POW's, and the patients, some of whom were severly wounded with IV's and hooked up to whatever, would yank them out and get on the knees five times a day when the call came - what a dilemma for the nurses and docs to cope with!!! I don't think she ever - EVER - wants to hear that sound again - and we won't even mention the scuds going overhead. But she certainly has stories to tell!

Perhaps it sounds trite, but I have found that reading a chapter of the Power of Positive Thinking before I close my eyes at night seems to rest my mind; not that I always wake up serene!

To paraphrase Marvelle, we each address our problems in our own way hoping to find comfort in books, meditation, discussion, and this has been such a good one, I have enjoyed it all so much and learned from you.

Carolyn, I hope, I hope my traveling days are not over! I would love to go with you to the desert and take a trip with the Bedouins - wouldn't that be fun! What an adventure - we read a book about someone who did just that and it is probably archived but I can't remember the title.

Oh, we'll wait Alliemae - maybe we need to take a chiropractor with us? Can my daughter go, she's a nurse? and how many camels do we need to rent? Wouldn't that be great?

I will be out of town until January but would love for you all to join Harold and I for the book discussion of David McCullough's "1776" beginning January 2nd -(sorry about the plug; this is not the place)............... but BABI and GINGER will be here and although we are far behind our scheduled time, this discussion can go on as long as anyone is here and willing to comment on making moral choices today.

I don't think I have learned how to do that from this book - I think Marvelle emphasized that the "how" of it is what is important - has anyone decided that? But regardless of the "how" it has been a wonderful experience for me and I want to say thank you so much for being here and I hope we meet again at a later date!

The very last paragraph in this chapter is worth a moment of reflection I think. "How do we judge success and failure? Jesus had plodded into Jerusalem and then met a disgraceful death, yet we were (are) still studying him two thousand years later."

Thanks again and have a HAPPY HOLIDAY!!

Happy Holidays, ELLA. Thank you warmly for your guidance here.

Success I think is when you go from this world you have made a difference to the world in a positive and ethical way. This means you could be a penniless philosopher or a Rabbi like Jesus. Having pots of money does not mean always that one has made a difference. Some of the people we most remember and who have made a difference have died very young, some in obscurity.

I think about the Diary of Anne Frank, who,as a very young girl did much to publicise the suffering of the Jews in Europe at the time of the Holocaust. Her diary which was published in book form after her death is still being read today by other young people and lots of adults too.

Carolyn

Ella, Happy Holidays!

Ch. 19, Re: Palm Sunday, Passover and Easter.

I was also a Protestant when I was a child and I, too, remember envying my Catholic friends walking home with their palms on Palm Snday. In those days, most Protestants I came into contact with didn't even know that Catholicism was also a Christian religion.

And I love this portion of the paragraph starting with, "Usually Passover and Holy Week...do not occur on the same week." (p. 212)

Then Cox goes on to say, "But once every few years Passover and Holy Week do coincide. I like it when they do, and if I had the power to change the Western church calendar, I would always have them on the same week. Having both celebrations together is a vivid reminder that when Jesus came from Galilee to Jerusalem with his disciples and apparently something of an entourage, he came to celebrate Passover. This in turn is a further confirmation of Jesus' attachment to his own tradition and of his rabbinical calling."

This chapter feels so full of 'what ifs'. When Cox talked about "...this event [Jesus' entry into Jerusalem on what is now known as Palm Sunday] compares with an airplane's 'point of no return,...It meant he [Jesus] was courting a confrontation..."

Was this action simply the fulfillment of the prophecy in Matthew 21: 1-9 as stated at the beginning of the chapter?--or was Jesus being dangerously provocative?--or both?

I have raised two sons and two daughters who were once in their thirties. Young people, especially the crusading types, do seem to have a penchant for provoking and baiting and way over-stating, and let the chips fall as they may!

My heart did experience a 'dull thud' when Cox pointed out what 'Palm Sunday' was. All my life it was a point of excitement and anticipation which got us through the sadness and horror of 'Good [?] Friday' to the joy of Easter Sunday!

Old attachments die hard and children are raised to believe in many mystical, even mythical stories which burn and etch themselves right into their tender and malleable little psyches.

Peace, Alliemae

I can only imagine!! Ella, if you haven't left yet, Have a wonderful vacation! Oh, and if there are still camels used for transport in Turkey, that would only be in the farthest points east! (smile) The only camel I saw was a pitiful, very old one that they kept at the tourist center near Ephesus...just for the tourists! They have lots of trucks and lovely little Turkish made cars named Murat...and I'll tell you this, they LOVE just laying on the horns over there!! They don't stop for pedestrians and 'take no prisoners' when they are driving! But out of their cars and trucks they are the most hospitable people I've ever met!

oh, and Ella...btw, I think I'd go just about anywhere in the world if I could have a chiropractor with me...and a nurse would be neat too!!

Carolyn, it was so nice to hear another's story about Turkey. Gosh, I love that country!

Johathan...awwwwwwwww...what a beautiful story about the mountain...and you sharing your lunch with your little friend. Yes, I agree with all of you who think mountains are very special.

Peace, Alliemae

AllieMae - Vanessa could not get over how the Turks love kids. They are cherished and feted by everyone. The whole community watches out for the kids. She also said there are large numbers of stray cats in the city and everyone feeds them. The Turks love their pets and even strays.

Just want to say a very unpolitically correct Joyous Christmas and Happy Hannukah to all my bookie friends in this discussion. Have a wonderful time with family and friends!

Carolyn

Just pack your bags and go. Leave all your worries and the chiropractor behind. Take a little linament and a few aspirin along for insurance if you must, but go with the expectation that you won't really need them. Do a pilgrimage. That has great healing potential.

Happy holiday, Ella. And thanks for your great DLing.

Jonathan

I have a copy of "IMITATION OF CHRIST" that I picked up yers ago. I had heard of it, and perhaps my expectations were a bit high. I found myself disappointed, perhaps because the mindset then was so different. Some of it struck me as being 'over the wall'.

ALLIEMAE, I think only Jesus knew there was a gauntlet being thrown down that day that could cost him his life. For most of those watching, shouting, waving palms fronds and hailing "the son of David", it was a celebbration, pure and simple. So I see no reason why we can't re-enact the event with joyful celebration, too.

I liked Ella's quote about this 'failed' Messiah still being studied two thousand years later. The following remark is also significant, I think. One of the most powerful elements of the Jesus story is that even after two millenia, retelling it still plunges any honest hearer into confronting some issues we normally avoid." And isn't that the truth!

Onward---into "Trial and Retrial". ...Babi

I find it interesting that crucifixions were reserved for only the foreigners of conquered countries or slaves. Death by crucifixion was too inhumane or cruel for Roman citizens.

As I read The Trial and Retrial chapter, I found myself thinking of Abu Ghraib. Most of us grappled with the questions of torture. How much is too much?

I happened to see this article while trying to remember how to spell Abu Ghraib. I hope it is alright to paste it here.

torture

Jonathan...and with my power chair? Easier said than done, although I must admit I wish it were so! I've never been to the hills of Rome but I've been to Seattle, and Istanbul streets are kind of like Seattle streets...mostly uphill, only they are well paved in Seattle! Even when you go and come back on the same street it seems uphill...don't know how they worked that out!

But I do think there's a golden kernel of truth in what you said so I've decided to stop being such a baby about things and push myself a little further every day...I'll be careful not to fall...but I must try harder.

Thanks, Jonathan!

Alliemae

BaBi, I agree with you on that. Sometimes, when you know the inevitable outcome, you really want to just get it over with. Prophecy and timeing may have had to do with it also. It's good to have another voice reinforcing my being able to continue to celebrate that wonderful day! Thanks, BaBi

Carolyn, I found the same thing to be true about Turkish children. They are taught the difference between their private space and public places. They are also very generous with each other, especially in a family. I saw a little shoeshine boy, maybe about 9-10 years old, on the ferry that takes you across the Bosphorus. His little brother was with him. Apparently the little one was hungry. Yogurt is sold by the cup on the ferries and it seems the older brother could only afford to buy one. He put his little brother safely on the ferry bench (the little one was maybe 6-7 years old) and bought one yogurt and gave it to his little brother. Talk about 'being one's brother's keeper'...I've never stopped being touched by that scene. A Turkish man also witnessed this and bought the older brother a yogurt saying, "Here, take this my young brother."

Peace, Alliemae

Hats, your link was really intense. I couldn't see where the writer was from. I was engaged with the article the moment I started reading it. Not long, not complicated...yet, I've read it twice and will again for I feel that there is even more that hasn't sunk in for me yet.

Thank you very much for posting the link, Hats.

Peace, Alliemae

AlliMae - Vanessa says people over in Turkey share food all the time. If a cafe owner is asked by a beggar to give him food, he is bound by their tradition and culture to feed the beggar. She said no one goes hungry. Vanessa said we could take a leaf out of their book how they care for each other and how they care for family. She said you just have to tell someone you are hungry and they will feed you.

The Turkish government passed a law many, many years ago that certain foods - the ones considered necessary for life - would be available at an extremely low price so that all people could afford to eat. Something the U.S. government could think about imitating.

Ella, if you're still reading this, have a great holiday and trip. Will miss you and look forward to hearing your stories upon your return.

The question of "how" to make moral choices following the example of Jesus?? I think it would be by using any means that makes you stop and consider all options and of not blindly "doing" what one habitually does. Jesus seemed to have used meditation for himself. He told startling parables to others to shake them our of their usual mindset and make them reflect. According to Cox, and other biblical scholars, Jesus was leaving the choice-making up to each listener.

Haven't read "In Imitation..." in a long time. Thanks for the link as I've saved it to read yet again.

Marvelle

Thats the whole message Marvelle. Jesus gives us guidelines for living and then its up to us. We have been given personal responsibility!

Carolyn

I don't know that I'd say the whole message. Jesus did 'talk the walk and walk the talk' and was purposefully an example and not only did he make choices (what sort of leader should I be?) but also made judgments. His parables are more open-ended.

By the way, I keep thinking of Kafka's parables too. I have a paperback of The Parables and Paradoxes of Franz Kafka which I think is the actual title. The book consists of short short stories, some only a paragraph long. Interesting.

Marvelle

HATS, reading about the kind of people who were crucified, I remembered that Paul escaped crucifixion because he was a Roman citizen. He was beheaded instead, a much quicker and cleaner death and apparently suitable for the ruling class!

MARVELLE, raised again the question, which is the theme of both the college course and the book, of how we could use the teachings of Jesus to help us with today's moral decisions. I'd like to give more thought to that question during the remainder of the book, and see what we come up with. There have been some specific examples mentioned during the discussion of the parables. I'm sure we could find some more.

Cox made an observation in the opening page of "Trial and Retrial" which hit home for me. Have you ever been frustrated because someone with glib answers was making you look silly, yet you knew you were right?

"The analytic skills they [law students] were developing often enabled them to run circles around the hapless undergraduates and the more philosophically oriented divinity students. That's me; the 'more philosophically oriented'!

Babi

When we were little we had Bible in schools. Nothing heavy. New Testament parables, pictures to colour in and prayers from the teacher for concerns we had as little kids. I am convinced we got our morality from these teachings. I know since there has been no moral teachings in schools, except we do have a values program in some schools, ( parents are on waiting lists to get their kids into a school which has the values program in place) our country is worse off for the lack of teaching morals either in the home or in school. Those who did not get teaching in the home in my day got it in school.

I am all for a values program in schools.

Carolyn

The law does not always encourage ethics or morality. How many felons have got off a charge because of they had a lawyer that picked up on a technicality? I can think of a few famous cases. The more you pay for the lawyer then more likely a guilty person will walk free. It kind of makes me sick to the stomach.

carolyn

Babi,I didn't know that! Paul is one of my favorite Bible characters. Thank Goodness he did not need to go through such a horrible death as crucifixion. Thank you for sharing the type of martyrdom Paul died. It is so strange. What you think you know, you don't know.

Alliemae thanks for reading the article.The article left me a little bit baffled too. Those two photographs are what lingered in my mind making me realize that two thousand years later we are dealing with some of the same issues.

I think my mind popped on Abu Ghraib because most of us grappled with our feelings about the movie The Passion of Christ and what happened at Abu Gharib. Reading about Jesus'trial and the reenactment of the trial by the students in Prof. Harvey Cox's book just made everything flow in my mind at one time like a running faucet.

If Jesus walked the earth today, how would He feel about the way POW's are treated? How would He feel about our justice system? Our feelings, I think, are the moral choices Marvelle has talked about in her posts. Because the choices we make about big issues will finally become the same choices we make in smaller matters dealing with our friends and family and communities.

By the way I did not go see The Passion of Christ. My husband and one of my sons did see it.

Marvelle, I didn't know about that law...thanks for telling us.

Carolyn, it's true...in Islam people are to feed and care for those who can't do it themselves and shopkeepers and restaurant owners andtheir employees also keep that tradition. I've never been to any other Islamic country but it is very true in Turkey.

Also, at a Turkish market, it is a tradition to always take one or more of the less perfect produce or product along with some choice ones so as to leave some perfect ones for others.

I found so much in Turkey that could have been based on what we consider in the West to be Christian tradition. Mohammed was raised by Jewish traders and Islam did come after Christianity so Moslems have learned, admittedly by themselves, a lot from these two previous religions.

There is also a great use of torture in Turkey from what I've heard and read and they have been cautioned that they'll never join the EU until they stop.

Torture seems to have been used for captives since written history. And so have courts of law and justice. I like very much the idea that Cox had his students actually have a trial...it really clicked with me that, as the young woman student pointed out, if they had gone by rule of modern law Jesus would never have been convicted...or may have spent years in appeals.

However, just like his riding as he did into Jerusalem, it would not have served his premise of prophecy if he hadn't been convicted, would it.

And not to be disrespectful, might not both Jesus' and Mary's take on his being the Messiah been compensation for the dubious origin of the pregnancy of an unwed woman.

I think Cox has the best idea. Let's learn from these parables because all the other 'facts' cannot be proven and in the long run, if someone is appealed to by the parables of the Rabbi and becomes a better person, does the rest of the narrative matter? Just like other mysteries of life, we will know when we know...or not.

I think each parable by a wise people and/or teacher probably resonates with someone who needs that message. Like the old saying goes, "When the student is ready, the teacher will appear."

So even with parables, maybe it's best to follow my dear, departed friend Evelyn's advice: "It's all like a buffet; take what you want and leave the rest."

Peace, Alliemae

Hats, the image that most horrified me about Abu Ghraib, not in the article, was the look of absolute glee and something even more evil on the faces of the perpetrators. The writer of the article didn't show those shots but I'm sure they were in his mind when he linked the acts to S&M.

I saw the Passion of the Christ. It was very difficult to watch but then I have a hard time watching any account of the crucifixion or other execution and can't believe people go to watch capital punishments.

But when Cox explained that it was such a common practice used to punish 'outsiders' the horror became very real and extreme. How are we, as humans, able to participate in 'man's inhumanity to man' (generic gender used here)? We see it in large AND SMALL ways all the time.

Peace, and residual sorrow...Alliemae

Alliemae, you are very observant. The words in your post are repeated in the article in a different way. The writer of the article writes about torture, "It elicits voyeurism and a morbid fascination." You used the words "glee" and "evil."

While reading the chapter and the next chapter, I thought about how we learn to treat one another can become, if unguarded, a pattern. It is good to know that we can make and unmake moral choices. Our justice system can become a fairer one. I think this is what Prof. Cox wanted his students to remember.

This is what Prof. Cox says his students told him.

"Some told me they took it because they felt that even an excellent legal education today does not provide enough opportunities to explore the moral and religious dismensions of the practice of law."

I think the course given by Prof. Cox began a change in his students minds.

Hats,I think you did well to post a link to the torture article. What a crazy world we live in. How can anyone, after reading that, do anything but shudder at the mention of torture. There were eminent people trying to make a case for torture after 9/11, but were embarrassed into silence by the Abu Ghraib pictures.

I'm disappointed by the way the torture issue was considered in the Harvard classroom. All moral and religious considerations aside, how can one condone the use of torture. The 'ticking clock' argument is used to make a case for it. Proposed, I believe by the lawyer Alan Dershowitz. I feel certain that he would be the first to have evidence gotten under duress and torture to be judged inadmissable as evidence in a court of law. Getting a 'torture warrant'. Using 'sterilized' needles when inflicting pain! There is some funny thinking going on with reasons like that. One is half way to hell just allowing such thinking. One would have to be concerned about corrupting the whole system of justice of a country, to say nothing about its soul.

From what the class should know about Jesus at this point, there shouldn't be any doubt in their minds about how he would feel about torture. Their discussion would be enough to make him weep. He hasn't been able to get a hearing it seems.

Jonathan

Johnathan I so agree with all you've written.

I don't have the book, and have just been reading all of the posts here. I find all who have posted here to be those rare spirits who are creating rather than tearing down. I commend you for the atmosphere of reason and spirit that I find in this discussion.

Jonathan, I feel the same way. I would love to express myself as well as you.

Hi Rainee,

I think we were posting at the same time.

Oh, so much to think about, and respond to. KIWI, don't you think that children do learn their values at home..for better or for worse. Children learn from observing their elders how they truly act, and the actions make a much deeper impression than the words. I think the problem is not that they learn no values at home, but rather that the values are not always what we would want to see. And it is very hard to counter the influence of those early impressions.

HATS, Your question about how Jesus would feel if he were here today, seeing all that is happening. It reminded me of something I saw years ago; I don't remember where. It said: Jesus is coming back....and, boy, is he mad!" I laughed, but it did make me think!

ALLIMAE, you question is legitimate, about the effect of Jesus' origins on his mother and his mission. I don't think it would have been as much of a disgrace as we might think, tho. Mary was betrothed to Joseph, and in Jewish law that made her legally his wife as the marriage itself would have. Mary would not have been the first young woman to have turned up pregnant before the actual marriage, deplorable that might be. Since Joseph did not denounce her, or 'put her away privately', I believe the community would have assumed the child was Josephs. This is conjecture on my part, but I believe it has a solid basis.

The issue of torture is painful, Jonathan. Not only is it horrible for the victims, it must surely debase the soul of the torturer. Just a short time ago I would have said categorically that torture could never be condoned! Then I saw a show on TV that posed a situation that is all too possible in these days. It is discovered that terrorists have place bombs in five public schools in the DC area. One of the terrorists has been caught. It is not known which schools are involved, and the time is short. Can they evacuate every school in the entire DC area in time? Possibly, torture will make the terrorist talk. The question is, would I be too 'humane' to hurt the terrorist, knowing that my ethical stand might result in the maiming and death of hundreds of children?

Which load of guilt would you prefer to carry? Now that's a truly harsh ethical/moral decision, isn't it?

Babi

Babi, I would do whatever it takes to save the children. Who wouldn't? That would include a firm but friendly request for information from the person who has knowledge of the whereabouts of the bombs. I would feel no guilt, and would even risk a charge of manslaughter if I failed to prevent a slaughter of innocents.

Didn't Jesus feel justified in breaking the Sabbath to save a life?

Thanks, Rainee, for your kind comments. Everybody appreciates that. But please help us out with your ideas of Jesus as a moral role model.

I read an interesting thing apropos to our discussion. A quote attributed to C. S. Lewis. As follows:

"A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic - on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg - or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to."

Taken from Michael Coren's review of Alan Jacob's book: The Narnian: The Life and Imagination of C. S. Lewis. Wasn't he popular years ago with all his books about the Christian life. Screwtape Letters and such. Mere Christianity, and many others, besides his Narnia books.

Jonathan

What a great quote! I think it is so easy not to see the real Jesus. His ideas seemed very odd to the people he met during Bible times. His ideas are odd to some people in the year 2005. For example, love your enemy, I do not think the Jews or Gentiles welcomed that idea, not with Romans walking around taking away their freedoms. I see the real Jesus as one who welcomed controversy, a person who was not afraid to walk alone and not with the crowd. Jesus stood against what the Pharisees and other religious bodies taught and brought His extremely different ideas to the people.

"MARVELLE, raised again the question, which is the theme of both the college course and the book, of how we could use the teachings of Jesus to help us with today's moral decisions. I'd like to give more thought to that question during the remainder of the book, and see what we come up with."

When I was a child my parents gave me two very large, beautifully illustrated books which I can still picture. One was red and the other blue. I don't remember both titles but the title that stuck with me was called, "Stories That Never Grow Old."

And these stories never did grow old for me. They were parables based on the teachings of Jesus and written as stories for children. They were filled with deliciously and delightfully presented 'moral' stories, ex: "Lying By Keeping Still" and things like that.

No matter what else I learned in my life or how many schools I attended, it was these stories that fed and still feed my morality.

I guess that's one of the reasons my favorite picture of Jesus is the one where he is surrounded by children...['suffer the little children and bring them to me for of such is the Kingdom of Heaven'...approximate translation, probably KJV]

Peace, Alliemae

Hats - you are right! I have always taken those words love thy enemy and turn the other cheek as a mandate for my opinion against things like capital punishment. Satisfying revengeful feelings does not change anything.

Carolyn

Jonathan - you mentioned C.S.Lewis and his book "Mere Christianity" When I attended the "one man show" a week or so ago, with Tom Key on "The Man Behind Narnia: C.S.Lewis On Stage".....it was plain that Lewis took a contrarian view of some of the stories in the Bible. He obviously felt there were flaws in relating some of the Parables in the different books of the Bible.

In chapters past, we discussed Jesus going off to the mountain top several times, always seemingly to seek answers and pray. Is it possible that he sometimes went to simply escape the Authorities. We all admit he was pushing the limit, as we say now, asking for trouble.

In Trial and Retrial, "After the disruption in the outer court of the Temple"...and he had assembled his closest friends for a Passover Seder in....the upper room of an inn.... Then he took along three of his closest companions and climbed the nearby Mount of Olives to pray and prepare himself for what he knew must be coming."

We are told he went to prepare, but how do we really know that he did not go to escape? Was he not angry when his friends fell asleep, and the posse arrived seeking him?

In looking back years later, and writing the stories, was a slightly different slant put on Jesus' intention? I grew up with these stories, and never doubted them. But one can not help but wonder about these things.

Sun

It seems that all through the bible when men wanted to get close to God they climbed mountains. I think solitude was what Jesus was after.

carolyn

I wouldn't mind hearing more about 'the one man show' on C. S. Lewis. I caught the video, Shadowlands, a few weeks ago. The one about his marriage with Joy (?), his American wife. The marriage was so short, but so meaningful for him. With his keen mind he would easily find contrarian views. But the main thing is that the suffering that he experienced served as a key to reexamining the life of Jesus. And the farther we get into this book, the more it seems to that Cox too is preoccupied with that. Getting to know Jesus. He seems to disappointed with the results he's getting in the student response to the course, despite it's intent

'the theme of both the college course and the book, of how we could use the teachings of Jesus to help us with today's moral decisions. I'd like to give more thought to that'...Marvelle

The story-telling isn't doing it, it seems. But Cox had his concerns about that from the beginning, we will remember. When he worried about an effective moral awareness, that would bring about not only a sense of right and wrong, but also the conviction and courage to produce results, to bear fruit.

'In chapters past, we discussed Jesus going off to the mountain top several times, always seemingly to seek answers and pray. Is it possible that he sometimes went to simply escape the Authorities. We all admit he was pushing the limit, as we say now, asking for trouble.'...Sun

That's an interesting surmise. He seems to have been keeping himself out of the public eye at times, if Judas had to be paid off for revealing his whereabouts. But the mountaintop, imo, plays a far greater role in establishing the messianic authority of Jesus. His sermon, his transfiguration on the mount inevitably bring on associations of Mt Sinai, the dwelling place of his Father, and a new dispensation of truth following the old, but being of the same divine source. I'm struck by the endless ways in which Jesus is vested with OT authority and prophecy. I'm beginning to see the epic narrative of it all.

Capital punishment is being made out to be immoral. Most of the world seems to think so. How would Jesus act, if he were governor? A reprieve for every death row inmate? After hearing a confession, say, you are forgiven, go, and sin no more? We have tried thinking that CP fits the crime, with constant revising down thru the years. There is a very real problem with both mercy and justice to be considered.

...['suffer the little children and bring them to me for of such is the Kingdom of Heaven'...

Thanks for that, Allimae. That has to be just the most delightful thing ever to have come out of the mouth of wisdom. So that is the way it's going to be in heaven, or here on earth, if we can make it happen?

'I see the real Jesus as one who welcomed controversy, a person who was not afraid to walk alone.'

True, Hats. But his end was so disastrous. Was it worth it? Were there some miscalculations along the way? I wonder, will he do it differntly when he returns?

Jonathan

A very thoughtful and helpful post, JONATHAN. I also appreciated your remarks in your previous post. This one was an especially appropriate response to my questions about how far one would go to protect endangered children.

Didn't Jesus feel justified in breaking the Sabbath to save a life? That is certainly true, though I would like to think that Jesus would be able to save lives with resorting to torture. We, however, are more limited, and I must agree that I would rather harm a man who was trying to murder children than let his plans succeed.

The C. S. Lewis quote is one that also made a great impression on me when I read it. He is right; there is no getting around it.

ALLIEMAE, it's true, isn't it. The lessons we learn in earliest childhood are the ones that stay with us the longest.

SUN, it always seemed to me that what Jesus wanted most of all to escape were the constant crowds. I know I would have been 'heading for the hills' at every opportunity. I agree with KIWI,...what he wanted was some solitude, some peace and quiet in which to think and pray.

I had never thought of Jesus as being angry with his disciples for falling asleep, though your interpretation is perfectly reasonable and possible. I always 'heard' those words as both sad and frustrated. Yet with the heaviness that must have been in the atmosphere that night, I have no doubt whatever that I would not have been able to keep my eyes open, either.

I don't think he was attempting to escape the authorities by going to the Mount of Olives. I say that, because the confrontation was entirely his own doing.

What about JONATHAN's questions? Do you think Jesus death was disastrous? Was is a miscalculation? Certainly, the Bible tells us his coming again will be very different indeed!

Babi

Without the death of Jesus the whole point of Christianity would be nullified. He died partly to show us that death was not the end of all. That we had two parts to our makeup the body of flesh and blood and the spirit which never dies. It must have seemed at the time of his crucifixtion to his followers that all was lost and to them on that day a tragedy. To modern day Christians we regard his death and subsequent resurrection as a triumph.

Jonathan - I always enjoy your post, you touch the real truth so many times. As for the 'the one man show' on C. S. Lewis, that was a LIVE performance here in Tyler, one night only....but Tom Key has traveled across the country with the show. He also performs "The Revelation of John", and the "Screwtape in Person" (also Lewis). I'd be interested in seeing both of them if given a chance.

Babi - Yes, I agree, I also learned and still believe that Jesus wanted to escape the crowds, and searched for a quite place to pray. Still these questions come to me sometimes, and I wonder, what if this or that was possibly another side of the story.

I suspect Kiwi is correct, that he sought solitude to pray more than anything else. And like she said: "Without the death of Jesus the whole point of Christianity would be nullified".

Sun

All of the posts here have made me reexamine my thoughts. It feels as though we are together trying to come to new conclusions or just keep the religious ideas that have been with us since childhood, adolescence and adulthood.

Jonathan, I don't think Jesus' death was disastrous. He died a symbolic death like any other saint who faced martyrdom. Jesus' death was filled with meaning. His death completed His mission. Without His death we would not have the forgiveness of sins and a future of eternal life.

I also think His death was not disastrous because it completed His way of becoming like man. He suffered in order to understand the sufferings of all mankind. Now, people can go to Jesus in prayer and know He understands their physical pains whether it is cancer or some other terminal illness or a bloody death in war.

Jesus faced His brutal death in dignity. He tried to prepare His disciples. He had already prepared Himself. He wanted to complete His Father's mission successfully. Some think it was a "disastrous" death. Jesus saw His death in a different light. His death had a purpose, a purpose that was very important to Him.

The bold words are Alliemae's words.

Alliemae, your telling about the memories of your parents and childhood and the books given you reminded me of my parents. It is so wonderful that as human beings we have the gift of memory. As a child, I had nightmares. I remember my mother telling me to always repeat the twenty third Psalm(The Lord is my shepherd) after a bad dream. She said the repeating of the verses would give me peace to go back to sleep.

Her words stayed with me. That Psalm is the first, I remember, learning by heart. Long past the time of monsters under my bed, I have used the Psalms during sickness, unemployment and just plain worries which have no substance.

I guess it just proves that the stories in the Bible are living. This is why the stories are read over and over again through each century.

I cannot believe this! I kept wondering where this discussion went....gues somehow I never subscribed! Do you suppose that could be possible?.........I am now going back to read all your posts.....

Obviously the life and death of Jesus has meaning for all of us. How can anyone be indifferent to such a great historic figure? Such a shaker and mover. The protagonist of the mightiest epic tale. A tale of one man's tormented search for the meaning of life and death. For the truth that sets one free. Is the birth, life, and death of Jesus any less an epic deserving to be pondered and 'enjoyed' for its intrinsic worth and human interest, than those others of great latter-day literary fame?

A sadness seems to be creeping into these later chapters of the book. Prof Cox seems disheartened by the limiting constraints of academic investigation. It almost seems as if he has gotten himself into a quandary about the direction the study course should take. And we do seem to lose sight of Jesus as moral guru while the author indulges himself in a nostalgia of youthful religious emotions. We who were brought up in the tradition can match his remembered hymns with the ones that moved us to tears or exaltation. There was, I remember, 'Shall We Gather at the River', and, 'God Be With You, Till We Meet Again, at Jesus Feet', always sung at the gravesite.

The Resurrection presents the greatest difficulties for the author. Very wisely, he merely skirts the edges of the morass of theological speculations. That would be best, it seems to me, to be left to the meditations of the individual soul, who can find in it the joy to exclaim, 'I was the bones brought to life'. Mentioned also by the author. Was this a digression on his part?

Why does the death of Jesus seem disastrous to me? Because it led to the death of so many others. Hardly what Jesus could have intended. Its great significance for the salvation of some, served as the path to martyrdom for others. A Jew can hardly fail to find the rabbi in Jesus, but Easter always filled him with dread. The words 'My God, why hast thou forsaken me?' were familiar enough, but the world should also know of the many who went to their deaths with the words 'kiddush hashem' on their lips: the sanctification of God, at their time of martyrdom.

Jonathan

Welcome, NANCY, I'm glad you found us. I know it's late, but you'll find some wonderful posts from all those in this discussion. I agree with HATS; the posts have given us all reason to re-examine our thinking, our preconceptions, our beliefs. Not to mention Mr. Cox and his challenging book.

I believe Cox is entirely correct when he says that in these times of long-distance warfare, and incessant violence on TV and in the media, we are becoming hardened to the pain of others. In part, I suppose it is a measure of self-defense. None of us has the emotional stamina to empathize with every tragedy that greets us on a daily basis.

Perhaps the lesson we can draw from the teachings of Jesus for this dilemma, is that of the Good Samaritan. If there is little we can do about most tragedies, we can at least help those within our reach.

Babi

I agree Babi. Everyone doing one little thing at a time amounts to one great effort. It can be as small a thing as buying groceries for a family that you know is having difficulties. Or offering to babysit children for a couple of hours for a young mum who is feeling overwhelmed. Inviting a lonely neighbour to join you for an outing or a home cooked meal. Taking all the goods you have no use for to the nearest charity shop instead of selling them on EBay or similar. There is much we can do one by one.

carolyn

Babi's quote is above.

Babi and Kiwi, I agree. There is always some way in which to help someone else.

Jonathan's quote is above.

Jonathan, I heartily agree with you. I think those who have sacrificed their lives for a good cause deserve being remembered always.

Jonathan, would you translate 'kiddush hashem?' I think these are two words that deserve remembering too. It is odd. Without knowing the meaning of these two Hebrew words I feel a poignancy deep inside. Do our emotions surpass religious differences and other differences?

I have heard it said that music overcomes the barrier of language. Music unifies people in whatever language it is spoken. There is no translation needed.

Well it's all mysterious isn't it.........I know that I treasure the Jewish faith even more after having read this book.......We must all make what we will of the bible and the stories of faith therein.....Is it really possible that many Christians do not understand the Jewishness of Jesus?

I don't think I've learned anything new in this book but was reminded and refreshed about so many things in parts of the book and especially, all of the posts in our amazing discussion.

Starting with my 'adult ego state' reminding me (and sometimes badgering me) about all of the things I was taught about Jesus as a young Protestant child...

My 'child ego state' who simply loves Jesus who loved the children and tried to teach us how to be good...and who the bad men hurt and made his mom sad...

My 'adult ego state'saying, especially this morning, "PUH-LEASE, Allie, just listen to what the poor good man has to say, DO!"

It's been a ride...and sometimes a bumpy one...I'm happy to stop 'discussing' and just continue to dwell within what I call 'The Oneness' (my name for God), turn on my radio receiver, so to speak...and 'be still and know'..and,in the words of John Lennon (I think, anyway...one of the Beatles) just "Let it be."

And not to stray from the premise of the book, I'm sure in at least one of Jesus' parables he did say just that...'consider the lilies of the field,' 'let not your hearts be troubled,' 'give us this day our DAILY bread,' too many to post I think...

Peace, Alliemae

I think the book showed a way, a hint, of how to make moral choices. What I gleaned from the chapters in the book about the 'how' of it:

1. Be conscious that you are choosing. Don't automatically decide or judge. You must make yourself aware, constantly, that you are choosing.

2. Reflect (aka meditate) on the issue. Free your everyday mind of the material. Meditation can be the Cathlicism of Ignatius or Buddhism or Jewish ... whatever causes you to meditate with an 'empty mind' that's open to all possibilities. When you meditate you can use the parables of Jesus, the example of Jesus, to deepen your reflection.

3. Carry out your moral choice. This requires courage and strength in many cases.

This is part of what I gained from the book and, perhaps more importantly, my reflection on the book and the examples given in it.

Marvelle

The parts that disappointed me in the book were the last couple of chapters. Cox didn't tie-up some loose ends.

For instance, how does one find the courage to carry out moral choices? He didn't follow that thought. Cox showed how Jesus had the courage. Jesus knew - as those of us who've studied the Roman period know the pomp and circumstance, the over-the-top grandness of victorious or eminent Romans' entry into a city - that entering Jerusalem alone and on a donkey was a serious and deadly slap in the face to the Roman authorities. He knew what the most commonly used punishment was for non-Romans. But Jesus had the courage to act on that Palm Sunday and continued to act out his moral choice. How does one find the courage? Your life or your job could be in jeopardy by making a moral choice.

Meditation: Another part that let me down was that Jesus meditated on his decisions, such as leadership, but Cox didn't go very deep into that beyond mentioning Jesus's meditation and then the Saint Ignatius' exercises and then saying that the Ignatius exercises are too complex for most people.

Survey of the course's effectiveness: Cox wanted to know if his teaching to students about Jesus and making moral choices was effective yet he didn't do enough inquiry into that. If Cox bumped into a former student, he'd ask 'Was my couse effective? Do you consciously make moral choices?' [paraphrase] and get an answer. Any statistician will tell you that Cox's questioning can't even be called a survey. Cox could have sent a simple question sheet to all former students of the past 10 years of teaching the course. That would be a goodly number but not so expensive a mailing. Only a small percentage would respond but that would be enough for a survey plus he'd have answers from some students who'd been in the workforce for a number of years rather than the few he'd encountered on campus who were still attending school.

Marvelle

Babi notes that "If there is little we can do about most tragedies, we can at least help those within our reach."

True but the question remains that we can help some, feed the hungry or clothe the poor, but there are other moral choices for us such as 'do we deny ourselves food/clothing in order to feed/clothe others?' or 'Do we refuse to follow orders, something as enormous as the Nazi murders or contemporary torture or at a mundane job when we're told to do something immoral/illegal that may cost others money or trouble?' Do we have the courage to refuse?

We should. It's easy to do good unto others when it doesn't cost us that much in time/energy/money, when we aren't really sacrificing.

Yet we should find the courage and the strength and that is my challenge to myself and to all of you.

Example of Courage and Strength: The Hopi Indians of the Southwest were told by the U.S. government that they had to sign away land and their children had to attend and live at government schools. Many Hopis refused and the U.S. government threw the leaders into prison for a year. The next year when presented when the same demands - land and children - the Hopis refused and again the leaders were shackled and thrown into prison. This went on for 20 years.

Twenty years of not giving in when the Hopis knew that separating themselves from the land and losing their children meant losing themselves because their culture would end - no land to farm in the Hopi way, the children, taken by force by government agents, would be denied the stories and the training of the Hopi way and the Hopi language. Eventually, sadly, many children were taken, much land taken, but there was always Resistance, passive resistance like Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr, and the Hopi Way survives. Some Hopis are modern, some straddle two-cultures, and some others continue the Hopi Way.

Marvelle

"The Fearless Small Moves the Mountain"

A long time ago there was once a village with many people high up on the mesa. For many years they lived happily, and multiplied to great numbers. Until one day, when a big old bear moved into their village. He moved there because he had eaten all the eatable sources everywhere he had been. He was always hungry, and wanted to eat only meat.

At first they fed him by hunting, but soon the game became scarce and the hunters had great difficulty in bringing anything for him to eat. Thus this caused him to become hungrier and meaner.

The people began to miss their children, who went out then never came back home. Then the older people began to decrease.

Their village chief was worried and concerned. He became suspicious of the mean old bear, so he assigned his good warriors to get rid of him, but they too disappeared, until not too many were left. They were all afraid of the mean old bear. Concerned and worried, the chief would smoke and pray for help every day, just any help to get rid of the bear.

And then one night while the chief smoked and prayed for help, he heard a tiny little voice saying: 'Oh, Chief, I can help you get rid of the bear.' The chief looked around, but could not see anyone. 'Where are you, and who are you?' asked the chief. 'I'm here behind your ear, I'm a tick,' answered the tiny voice.

But what can this little tick do to harm the bear, for he is as big as a mountain, thought the chief. 'But what can you do,' he asked, 'the mean old bear is so big and powerful?' 'Just leave it to me,' answered the tick, who was out of its wits in its passion to get rid of the mean old bear. Maybe this tiny tick can do something, thought the chief and he gave his permission.

The tiny tick found the mean old bear, crawled into his ear and began biting and biting and biting and drove the bear so crazy that he jumped off the mesa and died. The people were so grateful that they offered the meat of the mean old bear to the tiny tick who had food for the rest of his life.

This goes to show that determination, passion, and courage can defeat a great adversary, such as a big old mean bear, and accomplish great things.

Marvelle

Last Sunday we had a talk on National Radio about the Jewishness of Jesus. The speaker said "Remember Jesus lived and died a Jew"

Something for us to ponder on.

Carolyn

We can deny ourselves some food luxuries to feed others. I remember a man talking on the radio who said three Capuccinos bought at work would feed and school an African child for one week. Sponsorship is about $36NZ a month less US dollars. If you put it in that context it does not seem to be so much a sacrifice for such a big gain.

Carolyn

Re: "I remember a man talking on the radio who said three Capuccinos bought at work would feed and school an African child for one week."

That is amazing, very useful to consider...and such a valuable priority measuring tool! Thanks, Carolyn

And thanks too for your 'something to ponder about' about "Remember Jesus lived and died a Jew." You always leave us with neat but powerful things to consider.

Marvelle, re: "Any statistician will tell you that Cox's questioning can't even be called a survey. Cox could have sent a simple question sheet to all former students of the past 10 years of teaching the course..."

I so agree...that would certainly be a much more reliable way to measure the success of the course.

Marvelle, I also appreciated your post #284, "What I gleaned from..."

I think it's great, with so many opinions, that we can all sum up what the book meant to us.

Peace, Alliemae

Right, Alliemae. I've experience the same feelings. But it's not over yet. The best is yet to come, if we pay serious attention to what Cox is doing in the last two chapters'

I'm going to reread your posts, Marvelle, before I say too much more. I can understand your disappointment with some seeming shortcomings in the book. Cox does seem to change course in the last chapters. He seems unhappy to leave it at just a case of morals, a matter of learning to distinguish right from wrong. Just as the teaching of Jesus goes far beyond good and evil.

I've learned to see the drama of the Bible. Or, as he puts it, the saga of a people. It seems to me that he is trying to persuade some people that the Torah is only half the story.

Re: "But it's not over yet. The best is yet to come,"

Well then, Jonathan...I'll just have to press on! Don't want to miss anything, esp. not the comments posted on the 'best...yet to come'

Alliemae

Jonathan - But it's not over, yet.

Well, thank heavens....I have been reading the last few post, and they are very insightful, but they sounded like the discussion was over and done with. Finished.

So you are NOT all finished, yet. I'm glad for that....It sounded a little like I'd be wasting my time to read the last three chapters....no, not seriously. But it did sound like most of you had closed the book. I'll hurry and catch up.

Sun

Gosh, I hope we are not closing now; there is more to come, as JONATHAN said. I haven't been able to post as steadily as I had planned: The holiday preparations - though fewer and less elaborate than in years past (and zero trips to the mall!!) - take twice as long for me and are taxing.

I had to get the guest room ready for my California daughter and was concerned all day about her flight to Logan Airport. Thank God she arrived safely; my son just brought her in.

Isn't it possible that this book is the summing-up for Cox after twenty years of teaching that same course ? He gives the basic outline of how he approached the material, what and how he presented it, and why he eventually added to the elements of the material (e.g. the Easter story). The last chapters seem to be his reflections and thoughts that may have crystallized as he was writing the book. I'd like to say more but it is late and my back aches.

Thank you for sharing your insights.

I wish you will have more to say before we close the book, Traude. And you others too. It's good to hear that you will go along with a little more discussion of WJCH. It's the summing-up and feeling of pedagogical commitment on the part of the teacher, hinted at by Traude, that seem worth exploring. His 'explanation' of Easter is one that finally makes sense to me. But why not take a break of few days to enjoy the festive atmosphere around us, while our thoughts about the book simmer on the back burner.

I'll admit I'm caught up like never before in all the joyful music. Marvellous concerts the last few evenings. From the tabernacle in Salt Lake City; from St. Olaf's Cathedral in Norway; from Mainz Cathedral in Germany, with that angelic Renee Fleming, thrilling her listeners; and from the music hall at Belmont U in Nashville with an excellent program, including the charming male solo of 'Sweet little Jesus boy...and we didn't know who you were'.

When Jesus Came to Harvard was a wonderful choice for a read and discussion at this time of year. Thanks to the DLs.

Hats, I'm still wondering what I could tell you about Kiddush Hashem. I doubt that anyone who is not a Jew can grasp its full meaning. I have a heavy volume of personal Holocaust accounts. Its title is Kiddush Hashem.

Jonathan

It is Christmas Eve here. So to all of my cyber friends I wish a Merry Christmas, A Happy Hannukah and for those who have no faith Happy Holidays!

Santa is at the moment circling NZ in standby mode. He will begin distributing presents when darkness descends and the children begin to slumber.

Tomorrow my Muslim SIL to be will celebrate Christmas with us. He loves Christmas and all the trimmings. Would that we could all get on. Perhaps its because we don't take the trouble to get to know one another. We are all too scared to step out and make the first move.

May 2006 be a good year for all of us and may there be Peace on Earth. What a gift that would be! Better than anything.

Carolyn

Indeed, it's not over quite yet. After Christmas, we will have a week to discuss the final chapters and say everything that's on our minds.

MARVELLE has drawn some fine conclusions from her reading. I like these:

1. Be conscious that you are choosing. Don't automatically decide or judge. You must make yourself aware, constantly, that you are choosing.

2. Reflect (aka meditate) on the issue.

3. Carry out your moral choice.

She also raises the issue of finding the courage to do what we know is right. I confess to hating a confrontation, and I fear I have avoided some when I should have spoken out. I have found, tho', that when something in which I believe strongly is involved, I will react strongly. I can remember incidents in which my reaction was instinctive and immediate, ..and I do not regret a one of them.

Jonathan, I heard the St. Olaf's choir, I'm happy to say. I do wish I had stayed on PBS to hear the Belmont presentation. I have heard that song you referred to, and think those words "we didn't know who you were" some of the most poignant I've ever heard sung.

KIWI, how great to hear your Muslim SIL enjoys celebrating Christmas with you. That is how it should be!

A JOYFUL CELEBRATION TO YOU ALL

bABI .

Traude...hope your back ache is eased with some rest!

And may all of us suffering from holiday overwork and various related stresses feel better...

And Ella...wherever you are...you are missed! Hope you are enjoying...

Peace, Alliemae

I also hear the Mormon Tabernacle Choir (nothing quite like it!) and the St. Olaf presentation.......I have so enjoyed the beautiful music this year and have definitely sought it out......very meaningful and inspiring........celebrate all you wonderful senior netters! We have been blessed with living another year and we all are looking forward to another.............

Ah, the day after Christmas, and we may be still too far into a celebration mode to want to look into the heavy subject of forgiveness. Well, I have spent some thought on this subject in times past, and I'll go ahead and share my thoughts.

It seems to me whan an injury is done, a moral duty lies upon both the wrongdoer and the injured. The wrongdoer needs to regret and repent what he did, and the injured is called upon, at least in the Christian teaching, to forgive.

If both are able to fulfill this call upon their conscience, then both are freed and can put the whole thing behind them. But either one can act, whether or not the other responds.

If the wrongdoer sincerely regrets the wrong,and asks forgiveness, he has done what he can regardless of whether the injured chooses to forgive. The one who cannot forgive continues to let the incident embitter his life.

Or the injured party may choose to forgive and let go the harm done to him personally. But if the one who injured him feels no remorse and seeks no forgiveness, then he does not receive that forgiveness. The wrong he has done remains on his soul.

It also occurs to me that I can only forgive the injury done to me; I have no authority to forgive an injury done to another. Taking that one step further, I have no power or authority to 'forgive' an injury done to society, as in the case of a criminal. One may forgive a criminal act insofar as it harmed oneself, but the wrongdoer must still face his punishment for the crime. And saying "I'm sorry" is not sufficient remedy for that.

"Repentance" means "to turn away from". It is not simply saying "sorry"; it is a true remorse for a deed with a firm determination never to do so again. That is why the Call to Communion begins with "Those who do truly and earnestly repent of their sins..."

Okay, that's the heavy stuff said. Join in if you like, or pick a lighter point to ponder. <g> ...Babi

I agree with Criminal Justice and the Restorative Justice programs. However I do not believe we have the right to take a life either by committing a crime or by having the death penalty as a punishment. I take the commandment "Thou shall not kill" seriously as meaning I shall not kill another human being deliberately.

Criminals do have to take responsibilty and pay for their crimes by imprisonment, if its murder I think a life sentence should be life.

Carolyn

For a long time I thought repentance meant just saying a quick "I'm sorry." When I realized the importance of trying very hard NOT to make the same mistake, I was shocked. Now I had a responsibility to follow words with better actions. Babi, you put it so well. "It is not simply saying "sorry"; it is a true remorse for a deed with a firm determination never to do so again."

I like what Professor Cox writes. "Since God is present in the neighbor, all sins, including those against the neighbor, are also sins against God."

Carolyn, I think we do need to hear more about restoration in our justice system. I think changing the patterns of the lives of others is very important.

If life on earth is a necessary test for getting into heaven or reaching nirvana or whatever the particular belief is, it is certainly pushed to the limit when within just a couple of weeks span we are faced with one criminal who developed gangs responsible for an unknown number of gang and drug related deaths BUT became, in prison, a man whose supporters believed redeamed himself by writing anti-gang books and improving himself as a human being to the point of being nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize...

...and this morning, the capture of a prison escapee allegedly responsible for multiple rapes of young women and girls as young as 11 years old.

And then there is the rapist of children who are also terrorized and then murdered by the same perpetrator of their rape.

I remember my parents saying, "I guess it depends on who's ass (as in donkey) is being gored."

I consider myself against capital punishment but I shudder to think what my reaction would be if someone raped and killed a child of mine (God forbid); would I be just as sure that I don't believe in capital punishment?

And if I held my position about no capital punishment would I not be sentencing persons who commit absolutely heinous crimes against other human beings to a life of realizing day after day after day to live in the knowledge of what they did...that is, if they ever admitted remorse. Some don't.

The basic, unchanging fact that continues to reinforce my being against capital punishment is this: could I, myself, pull the lever or administer the lethal injection. The answer is always. without any doubt, NO, I could NOT. So if I can't do it, I surely can't expect someone else to do it. But, believe me, there have been many moments of weakness in my first thoughts...

Peace and stark honesty, Alliemae

Then I would suppose that sins against one's self would also fall into that category.

I know that when I think I've 'over-salted' or 'over-Haagendaased'(sp) myself knowing my own particular health concerns, I actually have felt it necessary to say an 'act of contrition' for the same reason.

No wonder it has been said that 'ignorance is bliss'! Life is easier when not pondering these serious things as far as I'm concerned...but then, I guess we must try to improve our own human race, beginning with ourselves!

Peace, Alliemae

I am ambivalent about capital punishment. My heart sways back and forth. As far as prisoners who will come back out to society, I am sure they must have some rehabilitation.

Remember the Hatfields and McCoys. An awful warning for the rest of us. Shake hands and make-up.

And it's only 363 days until we all enjoy showing uninhibited good-will to each other again...for a few hours. Joy to the world for one day. It takes amazing grace the rest of the year.

What new books did you all find in your stockings this Xmas?

I have a new book by Hal Crowther, "Gather at the river"...It is complied of essays of his .......Most interesting.....Also "The Ageless Sirit: Reflections on Living life to the fullest in midlife and the years beyond"........

Cox kept calling him 'Rabbi Jesus' throughout the book but especially in the beginning so we're acclimated to the realization that Jesus was not only a Jew but a Rabbi. I think Cox said 'Rabbi Jesus' for its startling quality, rather like the startling quality of parables, which is intended to shake people out of their ordinary ways of thinking and into a more reflective or meditative mindset.

I read Cox's book before the discussion began and have dippped into it during this discussion. I particularly like the way he places Rabbi Jesus in the history of his time rather than outside of history. We can see the interrelatedness of it all and the why of people's differing responses to Jesus.

While I felt the last couple of chapters of summing up were lacking a good deal, Cox did well with not dotting i's or crossing t's in the previous chapters which caused, or was meant to cause I believe, us to reflect as we read. Jonathan was disappointed by Cox's minimal instruction on how to meditate on choices but I think that was deliberate on Cox's part. Cox did point out to us, several times I believe, that Jesus meditated as a way to make his moral choices.

Yet there were places where I felt the author was padding out the book (too much about the Catholic Church when the course was intended to reach all peoples, maybe writing it in too much of a rush, and the informal survey was a disappointment.

Would like to know other readers' reflections on the book. Did you find a way to meditate, to make your mind clear of the material world so you could 'chew over' moral choices?

I see the book as one of the means by which we can live better lives, not by pointing fingers at the abstract or distant or famous people/issues who don't see our pointing fingers, but living a better life through making conscious moral choices and acting upon them.

Marvelle

I've been reading a nonfiction book The First Fossil Hunters which talks about how people viewed prehistoric remains of mammoths and other ancient beasts. The ancient Greeks and Romans generally say the fossil bones as human giants. The author of the book says that people viewed the remains according to their search image. Certainly modern scientists and philosophers now know how misleading a search image can be and deliberately work to avoid it.

A search image are 'unexamined assumptions' based on your experiences and background and, therefore, you see what you expect to see and nothing else. Most ancient Greek and Romans expected to see bones of their ancestors, this was their search image, and so when they found the bones of a giant mammoth, they declared the bones to be that of one of the heroes of the Iliad.

We can see their mistake now but it is an easy one to make if we just assume and not examine our own assumptions. All part of the reflective process I think.

Marvelle

I was away from seniornet for several days, so I am late to wish a complete recovery for Traude, and ask her to take good care of herself.

Thank you for those thoughtful posts, ALLIEMAE, and the 'stark honesty'. I'm sure we've all found ourselves with ambivalent feelings about the death penalty, and no clear answers to be found.

You commented on people living out their lives with the knowledge of what they have done, and being remorseful, or perhaps not. It is my impression that people capable of 'heinous' crimes are most often psychopathic, which means they have no feelings for others. They feel no remorse for their actions. Yet they are hard to recognize as they are usually intelligent, charming people. To me, that is a frightening thing.

MARVELLE has mentioned again what I believe to be an important element in approaching any issue, any moral dilemma. The importance of recognizing our own preconceptions, and not letting them blind us to other possibilities. Easier said than done, of course. Most of our preconceptions started so young, and run so deep, we tend to think of them as basic, unarguable truths.

Perhaps that is why a book like this is so valuable. It helps us to identify some of our own preconceptions, and maybe shakes us loose enough to re-examine them.

Q: Can you think of any 'old thinking' on your part that you have had to re-examine during this discussion? Have you changed your mind about anything, or learned something you didn't know before?

Babi

Jesus as a rabbi is the least of the startling things that Cox finds in taking a new look at the Gospels in this book.He may also have been a Zen master.

The book has left me with a variety of strange impressions. I get the impression of a professor with an uneasy conscience. Of,possibly, an immoral messiah, through no fault of Jesus, but the unseemly zeal of his followers. The impression of a theologian's efforts to make God look good.

I should elaborate, but it's late.

The last chapters tell a story all their own. Cox readily admits that he has loose ends to account for. And he's quick to admit that his survey was very superficial. It is his own assessment of the effectivness, the truthfulness, of his course that has to be addressed he feels.

I was surprised when he said early on that the Socratic advice 'Know Thyself' was not enough. That is perhaps what he is wrestling with in the last chapters.

Which makes me wonder about the 'problem' seen in the 'moral dilemma'. That implies an insight, and one that should make one happy with the spiritual progress one is making. The easy out is to let Jesus handle it, when a little more meditation or contemplation on the will of God would cause it to vanish. Often we fear needlessly. Or we get hung up on, or get to tilting with ethical windmills. An immoral reliance on good deeds to save us.

My new book is Orhan Pamuk's ISTANBUL, the book, I hear, that is helping to keep Turkey out of the European Union. And may get the author a Nobel Prize. Has anyone read it?

"My new book is Orhan Pamuk's ISTANBUL, the book, I hear, that is helping to keep Turkey out of the European Union. And may get the author a Nobel Prize. Has anyone read it?"

No, Johnathan, but I have seen him interviewed recently about his writing in general and have decided to read it while I wait for my next scheduled book discussion to come up in March. I wish his book could be a part of a book discussion. I would like to know how you and others find his book. I am not altogether impartial or objective about anything Turkish as it is has been, for years, my chosen field of study. I had hoped one day to read him in Turkish but have learned that there is a rather vast difference between spoken and written Turkish!

Peace, Alliemae

BaBi, there is so much that I'm glad we have a couple more days...

I'll be back...

Peace, Alliemae

As I know longer have the book (had to return it to the library) I can only comment on what I remember. "Q: Can you think of any 'old thinking' on your part that you have had to re-examine during this discussion? Have you changed your mind about anything, or learned something you didn't know before?" My answer would have to be, no. I have done a great deal of reading on the subjects of religion and have come to a lot of the same conclusions that Cox did.

Cox's book is not nearly as deep as Matthew Fox's book, Original Blessing, in which he discusses the emphasis modern churches tend to put on the orignal sin instead of the original blessing and the divine creation. Also the way religions have tended to lock out the sacred feminine side. He refers to God as "She" throughout the book.

Jonathan, when you have time, I hope you will explain further your comment of possibly, an immoral messiah, through no fault of Jesus, but the unseemly zeal of his followers. My curiousity is definitely piqued. What 'unseemly zeal' brought up the idea of 'immoral messiah'?

Denjer, Thanks for the recommendation of Matthew Fox's Original Blessing. I don't know that one. I'll have to take a look at it, if I can.

Andrew Greeley frequently refers to God as 'she' in his books. I know it makes many people uneasy to see that, as most denominations insist on the masculinity of God. My own thought on the subject is that male;female are physical characteristics. As God is Spirit, those terms would not apply. Masculine and feminine, however, describe attributes such as strength, or nurturing. All these attributes are present in God, just as to some degree so-called 'masculine' and 'feminine' traits are both found in most people. God encompasses all things, does He not?

Babi

Prof Cox also talks about a feminine side of God. First of all, for me, it is so difficult to throw away childhood traditions. These traditions have stayed with me into adulthood. I taught many of these same traditions to my children.

I have never thought of God as feminine. When I pray, I use the pronoun He. This is a religious question I find hard to tackle. I have no way of supporting myself. Not knowing how to back up my heart with a specific fact is becoming a place very familiar for me. This is why I try very hard not to shoot down another person's ideas. Recently, I asked a person to back up their opinion with fact. Then, I realized my opinion lacked facts too.

For one reason or another a person might feel more comfortable with a feminine God or a masculine God. If the chosen gender makes a person relate to God in an intimate way, who am I to say they are wrong? I think we are allowed to come to God as we are in thought. Remember the old church song "Just as I am?"

I think many truths about religion or God are not known to us. We do not know all there is to know about the planets or about the ocean floor. Our lack of knowledge does not cause us to stop searching. We continue to search for answers. Neither does our lack of intelligence about these places cause us to say that other planets do not exist or that the ocean floor does not exist. Why should our lack of answers cause us to say there is not a God? Why should the different ways of seeing or thinking of God cause us to say God does not exist or that another person is dead wrong?

How can we ever talk to one another in unity if we come with rigid thoughts? Talking does not make me change my view of God. Talking will not make the other person change his view. At least, we have had a good conversation about God. I think God must take joy in excited conversations about Himself especially if we can walk away and still remain friends.

Is that one of the Beatitudes "Blessed Are the Peacemakers...?"

One of the best lines I have ever heard in a movie was, I think, from a father to a son or a chaplain to a soldier who had said, "I don't think I can believe in God..." and the elder man said, "I wouldn't worry about that right now, son...God believes in you!"

In college and in my personal life I studied two forms of Islam. I was raised a Christian. The two forms of Islam were: Islamic Law in traditional historical Islam and Sufic Islam which is, I think, sort of similar to the more mystical sides of Christianity and Judaism. In Sufi Islam God (to Moslems, Allah) has many manifestations...in fact, as many as anyone needs God to have. Mother, Father, Sister, Brother, Friend, Advisor, Conscience, Strength, and many that we will not realize until we need them.

In my personal beliefs God is non-anthropomorphic...I decided on this myself when I realized that when I thought of the God of my childhood I saw in my mind either Jesus, older, heavier and with a long white beard and white hair, or, kind of like that Wizard of Oz behind the curtain, making arbitrary and frequently heartless or at least irrational seeming and sometimes 'gotcha' decisions and also when I started to read feminist literature and realized that a female god was no different in my opinion that a male god. I came to the conclusion that, as BaBi said: "As God is Spirit, those terms would not apply." and that as my 'Oneness' is greater than I, that oneness would not be 'a jealous God' or anything that we think is small and unrighteous in humans. I much prefer the, "My God is an Awesome God" approach.

I agree with those of you who say that God is a very personal entity to each of us, and each of us has the right to our beliefs...as Hats put it, "Blessed Are the Peacemakers..."

I no longer ascribe to any religion which is warlike and sometimes that hurts because the religions whose precepts I believe mean a lot to me and I miss worshipping them in communion with others...but I'm fortunate that I have found others who also don't believe in killing and religious wars and we do get together from time to time and just 'be together'.

The reason I call God 'the Oneness' is that I truly believe that we are all a part of a 'whole' and that 'whole' is God...and we are all a part of that Oneness and longing and studying and striving to return to God, by whatever name, and live in wholeness again.

Sorry to be so personal but I feel safe here and I have loved this discussion as we have all been so respectful of each others' beliefs...frankly, I think we 'ROCK' as my grandson would say!!

Peace, Alliemae

IMHO, once again a good premise was yet another victim of either publishing demands or author exhaustion*. In non-fiction, especially in books written to 'educate' or 'elicit' opinions, a lot of diluting and over-stuffing and sometimes simply rambling is added to what could have been excellence of substance, in the name of making a book a 'saleable' size.

I think a lot of good points were made but the end seemed sort of eked out.

It was a tough project and a fire-charged one and I think the author interjected, either overtly or tacitly, his own opinions a little too much.

It might also have been because the book was a culmination of so many years of the course, but I think someone(s) has already mentioned that.

This book has not changed my opinions or beliefs but our discussion has given me a pricelss insight into the hearts and minds of others...and I wouldn't trade that, ever!

Peace, Alliemae

Alliemae, I am so glad you shared the story of the soldier and the elderly man. It really impressed and moved me.

Alliemae's Quote below

"The reason I call God 'the Oneness' is that I truly believe that we are all a part of a 'whole' and that 'whole' is God...and we are all a part of that Oneness and longing and studying and striving to return to God, by whatever name, and live in wholeness again."

Alliemae, those are my feelings too. You must have been inside my head.

I could have never written my thoughts so clearly and precisely.

AlliMae my great grandmother became a Quaker when she lost one of her sons in WW1. She remained a Quaker til the day she died. I am against killing also and my grandfather impressed on me the futility of war although he had served right through WW1 and was in the Home Guard in WW2. He asked my husband in his last year to promise he would not send our son his great grandson to fight a rich mans war. He said "let him defend our shores if we are attacked but do not send him to fight on someone elses shores for the rich and powerful" My grandfather was no coward he was a Mans Man and a Cavalry Man.

Carolyn

And doesn't that mother now rule the hearts and minds of millions. She is for many the Queen of Heaven, still playing her role as intercessor. Throughout Christendom the vast majority of churches seem to be dedicated to her. More chants and prayers are probably sent her way than to any other divinity. And her daughters do light the candles for us on our sabbaths.

This has been the most engaging book that I have read this year. It has recalled the early years of my life, when it was expected of me to make up my mind about Jesus. There seemed to be no way of remaining neutral, and that probably lays at the root of my assertion that Jesus may have been an immoral messiah, when represented by his followers as the one who came to save us, to bring us peace. They may have overdressed him.

So it has been interesting to see what professor Cox has tried to do with Jesus. He does seem to want to go far beyond helping his students to become law-abiding citizens. For one thing he seems to be trying to rehabilitate Jesus for the Jews, to help along the movement, trying to make Jesus a part of Jewish tradition. Just as Spinoza is finding his way back into the fold, after being anathematized.

For another thing, Cox can't let go his personal, evangelical commitment to the Jesus of his youth. The reader gets numerous reminders of that.

The way I read it, it didn't take Cox very long to realize that strangers to the faith would find it difficult to find a workable ethical system for the modern world in the Jesus way. Especially if it came at them in an 'I am the only way' stance. It would take, as Cox says, a change of heart that comes only in following Jesus, or, even better, to walk beside him. Even as a stranger, until such a time as recognition comes.

In this connection, it is interesting to see how Cox gets around the problem of scriptural fundamentalism. That is such a meaningful experience for so many devout Christians, convinced as they are that in being fundamental they are the salt of the earth, as commanded.

If they could only be made to realize how vastly more meaningful it becomes when the biblical story is accepted symbolically. But having already done one leap of faith, perhaps it is too much to expect them to do one more, from the literal to the poetic. The fundamentalist, like the Jew is stuck in history, can't seem to break the surly bonds of earth.

The book served me as an invitation to an immersion in the Christmas celebration. What a glorious thing has been created over the centuries to commemorate a birth. The songs and hymns, the merry carolling, the ritual, the magnificent cathedrals serving as backdrop for a service of worship. Never has a rose window looked more beautiful than the one behind the choir in St. Olaf's. And the last hymn they partly sang and partly hummed.

'Beautiful Savior', always my father's favorite, who in his pastoral duties never failed to remind each and everyone that they were children of The Most High, and to behave and think accordingly. May he rest in peace. Dad, that is.

Easter as Exodus, for everyone, does seem like a promising interpretation of Scripture.

But there is a downside to the arrival of the messiah on earth. The dark side. I just don't have the heart to dwell on it. Jesus must be weeping at what has been done in his name. His mission, in some ways, turned out to be such a failure among us. The cause of such civil war. It's distressing.

Much as Mahatma Gandhi admired Jesus, he was determined not to make the one big mistake of his distinguished predecessor. Table talk occasions in the holy man's ashrams, and other events, were always attended by plenty of scribblers in the audience, each of whose jottings and musings were carefully scutinized by Gandhi at the end of the day for correction. I've always wondered at the interesting conclusions that Gandhi drew from reading the gospels of Jesus.

All in all, I think this book should be given the same serious consideration that Cox got with his Secular City a generation ago. That impacted innumerable lives. Jesus at Harvard should too, if the students learned anything.

Jonathan

ALLIEMAE, don't apologize, please, for voicing your personal views. There is no way we can really talk about what we have been reading without expressing its personal impact and our own viewpoints.

I felt, too, that the last chapters got away from the intent of the book. There were no 'teachings' of Jesus from which to draw any ethical/moral guidelines, as they are about things that happened to him, rather than what he taught.

JONATHAN, I especially liked this remark in your last post, about finding a 'workable ethical system for the modern world in the Jesus way.."

It would take, as Cox says, a change of heart that comes only in following Jesus, or, even better, to walk beside him. Even as a stranger, until such a time as recognition comes."

As long as the teachings of Jesus are 'lessons' to be conned over, we may understand them intellectually and still not experience that 'recognition' I'm saying this badly, but whatever truths we find have to sink in, to be 'reconized', to become part of our lives.

On the 'immoral' use of the words or name of Jesus, it can't be denied that is happens all too often, to our shame. Those who are guilty of this will, I believe, have to answer for it.

(That Rose window at St. Olaf's was a beautiful thing, wasn't it. The whole propects up the chancel(?) to the window was beautiful.)

We have two more days to comment on the Easter story and the short chapter on 'The Laughter of the Universe'. I haven't read that one yet, and the title has me intrigued.

HATS: Call it 'oneness', 'wholeness', 'relatedness',...I feel the same.

Babi.

When I stand on the beach and see Lion Rock and watch the mighty waves come crashing to the shore how can I not believe in a power greater than myself.

I am reminded of my favorite contemporary hymn

Shout to the Lord, All the earth let us sing

Power and Majesty Praise to the King

Mountains Bow down and the seas will roar at the sound of your name

I sing for joy at the work of your hands etc--------

Carolyn

pronoun for God. How would we talk about any other spirit? Wouldn't we use "it" as a pronoun? Why can't we use "it" for God? Just because all the Christian societies have been patriarchal and men wrote the scriptures and the sermons and they identified w/ God? Where does that leave women?

At the memorial service in NYC for the 9/11 victims a woman rabbi spoke a prayer in which she did not once refer to God as "He" or "Heavenly Father" or any gender, I tho't is was wonderful, so inclusive of everybody who was listening. It was so unusual that i have remembered it all these years later.

How can anything as omniscient as believers think of God as being have a gender???? It makes no sense to me......jean

My God may not make sense to you, and your God or no God may seem unlikely to me. That is the point we have been making. We are allowed, I think, to relate to God in a personal way because our life experiences are different. A little child's view of God is different from an adult's view of God. Then again, An adult might not change their childhood views.I think God allows us freedom to approach "Spirit" in our personal way. God is love and in love there is freedom.

As we change, our thoughts of God may change. There are many stories of people who changed from atheists to believers in God or changed from loving God to rejecting God. Didn't C.S. Lewis change? God, I believe, can accept being called a gender or no gender, whatever you choose. God allows us freedom to approach "Spirit" in our personal way. God is love and in love there is freedom. God does not want to manipulate us. We want to manipulate God.

As long as we can share our stories, who God is to us, that is what matters to me. I want to remain open to hearing new ways of thought. I have the God given right to keep and reject whatever seems fitting for my personality.

Professor Cox made me realize the importance of dialogue. Your story is important. My story is important. We have walked different paths. Still, all of us have a story to share.

I guess this was Cox, via Jonathan, via BaBi?

I think that's where the, "for by grace are you saved, THROUGH FAITH,..."

I had a friend from India in the Punjab who was a Seikh [sp?] and his daily prayer was, "God, I am your child. Show me what you want me to know because I don't always see that. I know you will take care of me. Thank you."

I never met a more peaceful, secure and happy person.

Alliemae

Despite Cox's Catholic faith being an important part of his life, he didn't say that we had to follow Jesus. But Jesus had a tremendous impact on his world and ours and Cox tried to show how Jesus made his decisions and how Jesus startled people so that they'd reflect on the issues, rather than stick to their search image of unexamined assumptions.

Did the book change my opinions or moral choices? In one way, yes, because I was constantly reminded that I face moral choices everyday and I have to really consider the choices and take action. One choice I made midway during this discussion was not financially good for me, and I knew it wouldn't be, but it was the moral choice and so I took it when previously I might not have.

I didn't concern myself about questions of faith or belief since Jesus was presented as a man and the question of miracles was delicately turned aside. (I liked the insight on Jesus's art of healing which had a lot to do with acknowledging an outsider's existence rather than shunning them.)

Marvelle

I agree w/ everything you said, i was not making a judgement of anyone else's way of believing, just stating my own......jean

Jean, hope you don't think my post was in response to yours? No argument from me about anyone's belief or nonbelief as I think that's personal to each person. I was just trying to express some of my thoughts to DL's questions.

Marvelle

Someone wrote that Pamuk's nonfiction book Istanbul was causing trouble with the consideration of Turkey entering the EU. It actually was his most recent novel Snow. Pamuk is in trouble with his country, lots of personal threats, and also being prosecuted. It appears that either Turkey will change their laws to include freedom of speech or else not get into the EU.

Some links:

Latest on Charges

Tarnished Turkey, Law & EU

Turkey In Bind

Temporary Halt to Trial

More Charges

NPR and Pamuk with "Istanbul" Excerpt

One of the links mentioned that Pamuk is on the Nobel short list which I didn't know. He is a great writer and I hoped he'd win the Nobel eventually on his merits which are extraordinary but maybe he'll win it sooner because of threats to his life and the prosecution against him when he spoke freely. My favorite Pamuk novel is My Name Is Red and the nonfiction Istanbul is breathtaking as well as informative.

Pamuk is in trouble because of his beliefs and he spoke them even when he knew it would cause him trouble something we've been talking about here. He has courage because his life has been threatened before by extremists.

Marvelle

I know it sounds really awful to say but after talking about Turkey a lot at home I have realised that Turkey has the problem preventing fundamentalism taking hold in their land. A lot of the severity in their system comes from that fear. What to do? To lose a secular Turkey would be a tremendous blow to Europe. I think politicians feel they are between a rock and a hard place especially now.

I've been allowed a little more time on this computer so scrolled back in the discussion and found it was Jonathan and Alliemae who talked about Orhan Pamuk. Hope the links in my previous post are helpful. Alliemae, please please take a look at Pamuk's books and suggest one for discussion if you like. I've been talking up My Name Is Red until I'm blue in the face. Snow is the controversial novel about Kurdish immigrants that generated Pamuk's comment and started all the legal/EU fuss but, while the writing is exquisite as always with Pamuk, it didn't hold my interest as well as Red nor was it as entertainingly instructive.

Kiwi, what I'm feeling from the recent press reports is that the Turkish government is seriously looking at broadening their freedom of speech laws. I'm hoping that Turkey does change that law and that the trial will be dismissed although I still worry for Pamuk's safety. He had to leave Turkey a few years ago when he received threats to his life and eventually returned to his home country but the threats have reappeared.

Oh, I read in another news article that Noam Chomsky, the U.S. linguist, was at Pamuk's trial when it started. Freedom of speech is of critical importance to Chomsky and his presence, and the EU representatives' presence in the courtroom made the judge and the government nervous.

Yet I love Turkey too! Lived there for a few years and had an amazing time.

Marvelle

Thanks, Jean.

Marvelle

Jean, I know you were not making a judgment. I think we were saying the same thing in different ways.

Marvelle, I would love to read My Name is Red. I would like to read Snow too. Thank you for the links too.

Marvelle, the moment I finished reading you post about Pamuk I decided I must copy the information on his books and save it so as not to lost track of it when this discussion is over.

It is so exciting to me that there are at least two or three others interested in reading him. I will start with 'Red' but also want to read 'Snow'...and of course, nothing can stop me from reading about my dear 'Istanbul'...

Marvelle, I'll join your bandwagon to have Pamuk included in a book discussion here!!

Peace, Alliemae

Marvelle...do you mind telling me where and when you lived in Turkey? I studied there in the summer of 1989 from June through September.

Alliemae

It's very gratifying to get such an enthusiastic response to a mention of Orhan Pamuk. Why not a discussion? I'm just nicely getting into ISTANBUL, and it's definitely growing on me.

Thanks for the links, Marvelle. And also for the recommendation of Pamuk's writings. I have also started reading MY NAME IS RED. Gotta go...

JONATHAN, there's a link in the heading called "SUGGEST A BOOK FOR DISCUSSION". Why not suggest one of the Pamuk books there; make it official.

MARVELLE, you post about Pamuk's troubles are a sobering reminder that making moral or ethical choices can sometimes land one in difficulties. It takes courage to make them anyway.

I'm sure Cox would be pleased to know that this book led you to make a costly moral choice that you might not have made before. Maybe you could let him know. I've never heard of an author who did not like to hear that his book has made a difference.

The last chapter, "The Laughter of the Universe", I have marked with a half-dozen tabs of things to talk about, or simply puzzle over.

1. Cox's sweeping definition of Christian eschatology on pg. 290,

2.The discovery that the word I had always known as 'return' can also mean arrival, or presence, or appearing.

3. The theme of 'exile and return' throughout Jewish history and its application to Jesus.

4. Shekinah as the 'feminine side of the deity'. My previous understanding of the word was in the phrase "Shekinah cloud of glory". Now I am really confused.

5. The idea that the imagery with which many Biblical themes were expressed if so obsolete it has become misleading. This, at least, is not a new idea for me.

Consider the writer of Genesis, trying to convey the vision of creation from the invisible matter we now know to be the base of all creation, with the language available to him. I can see why he might think of dust motes seen only when the sunlight strikes them, and say man was made from dust.

6, Dante's image of heaven as a place where "the laughter of the universe" is heard. As Cox writes: "A laughter that somehow catches up an entire history of sobs and cries of pain? The last laugh of the God of life after so many deaths and defeats? Was it too much to hope for? Maybe so, but why hope for anything less?"

Really wanted to leave us with something to chew on, didn't he?

Babi

Catching up at last, and not quite there yet.

But, MARVELLE, did I read you correctly abaout "Cox's Catholic faith"?? How did you deduce that ?

As far as can be determined from the book, Prof. Cox is not Catholic. Actually, if he were, I believe this book would not have been written in quite that way.

Still trekking ...

The first time I heard of the Shekinah was in a book of Goddesses throughout the year and it was from a feminist press.

I do know of a group in my area in one of the Protestant churches who have study groups on Sancta Sophia, Holy Wisdom, which they believe to be the feminine counterpart of the Holy Trinity...the Holy Spirit.

Re: requesting the Pamuk book on that link, I'll look through his books and also request a discussion.

Peace, Alliemae

Any of his books would be well worth considering and discussing, and we actually proposed one in the Read Around the World (RATW) folder, but the nominations went in a different direction.

Babi

Each of your 'half-dozen tabs' just begs to be discussed. I made a note of them myself. In fact the last two chapters, and the Postsript, had the most appeal for me, because of the way Prof Cox reveals some radical thinking in his biblical interpretations, and by his strong leaning to the Jewish faith, especially the Hasidic tendency. He makes half a dozen references to the Hasidim and their founder, the Baal Shem Tov. As well as Rabbi Abraham Heschel, who has written about him. And Cox mentions his daughter Susannah Heschel who teaches at Dartmouth. Did anyone else see her last night? She made several appearances in the PBS doc, Hitler's Theologians.

Shekinah, not that I know anything about her, is a mysterious spirit, eagerly awaited on devotional occasions.

In the RESOURCES link above is an interview in which, and in the book as well, Cox speaks of his closeness to Jewish influences, natural enough with a Jewish wife, and a son who is being instructed in the Jewish tradition. So I think that explains the tendencies of his thinking in his interpretations. I'm in agreement with most of them.

Cox did start off as a Protestant, even saying he felt uncomfortable doing the Fourteen Stations, thinking his forbears might fault him for it. In those situations I always remind myself that my forbears' forbears were stout Catholics. Some of us can't please everyone, even among the dead.

Getting back to your six points, I don't see how we can do justice to them if the discussion ends tomorrow. On the other hand, it's a fine note on which to end, with lots left to chew on.

It's been a great discussion.

I was hoping you wouldn't mind if I brought up a proposal for another book. This has been a very congenial group, so I was wondering how much support I would get here, before proceeding further with it.

Actually, with the same thing in mind, I did want to propose another book to this group, and anyone stopping by to read the posts. This time the author is an Oxford professor, who also writes in a very readable style. Alister McGrath. THE TWILIGHT OF ATHEISM: The Rise and Fall of Disbelief in the Modern World. Doubleday, 2004.

I suppose we're all going into a busy weekend. HAPPY NEW YEAR to everyone. You've all been very compatible.

Hats, that was a magnificent 'This I believe.' Bless you. Bless all of you.

Jonathan

Just in case some of you are searching to confirm Cox's Catholic faith, I thought I knew about where it was mentioned in the book.

Although I believe he did go to the Catholic Church as some point in time, he said he was "raised a Protestant" (page 64). The Catholic suggestion is reinforced by his choice of a Jesuit as a Spiritual Counselor (page 98-99). This is also the place where he talks about growing up singing "In the Garden" and "Have a Little Talk with Jesus"....very Protestant songs.

I know, I grew up singing them. I also grew up in Protestant territory with the other half of my family Catholic. Protestant Ministers, and a Catholic Nun and Priest.

I do think Cox went to the Catholic church at one time, and believe that somewhere he also mentioned being an Episcopalian or ....? Maybe someone else can come up with the answer to that. If I find it I will let you know.

I think I told you at the beginning of this discussion that my Daughter would get this book for her Boss for Christmas. She did. It turns out that he no only went to Harvard, he was a student in some of Cox's classes (before he started the class the book is based on) and has read his other books. It will be interesting to know what he thinks of this book when he has read it, but it will be too late to pass the information on to you. He's en-route to India for two or three weeks.

Sun

Sun, what a small world. Your daughter's boss studied under Prof. Cox. That is so wonderful. I bet her experiences made you feel a closer kinship to the author.

Reading 'When Jesus Came to Harvard,' is a very worthwhile book to read. I gained so much thinking about the telling and retelling of stories, and how to make moral choices. I liked getting the chance to peek in a classroom and hearing the thoughts of students about religion in the past and present.

Near the end of the book I felt Prof. Cox needed to make his inner struggles with religion known. At some point, I think an author loses control of what he might have outlined to write. At that point, the book becomes the master leading the author in a different direction.

This is just an assumption. I think this happened to Prof. Cox. Somewhere in those chapters and while having his classes, he began to look closely at the meaning of religion and his moral values and began a reexamination of himself. He spent some time discussing his reason for calling Jesus a friend. He recalled the hymn 'What a Friend We Have in Jesus.

In the Postscript the students were there again. I greatly enjoyed reading the Postscript. I liked reading the students evaluation of the teacher and the course. Oh, the very last page where Prof. Cox explains seeing God everyday in the faces of different people around him. I wanted to post the quote. It is too long. His thoughts about seeing God in that way will stay with me.

I will never forget the Guatamalan portrayal of a bulletproof body with roses stuck in each bullethole proving that from death comes life.

Babi, thank you for all your last thoughts and that highlighted quote. I had to read that quote more than once.

Jonathan, your posts are always very thoughtful. When I see your name listed for a discussion, I become very happy knowing your posts are just filled with knowledge and humor.

Marvelle, thank you again for my wonderful gift and your thoughtful insights in the book. Great thoughts I will strive to remember.

Alliemae, I have enjoyed meeting you through words. I can't wait to be with you in another discussion.

Jean, we have shared now more than one discussion. I always gain from your thoughts too. You know how to make me keep my thinking cap on.

I am so looking forward to your thoughts in the 1776 discussion.

Happy New Year to Ella, Babi, Ginger and the Whole Group!!

Carolyn, your post #325 made a big hit with me. I thought of the song 'How Great You Art' while reading your post.

Hi Traude, hope to read many of your thoughts in the new RTWD.

My thanks to all of you for being such a wonderful, articulate, thoughtful group. There are no doubt many more things we could say on the subjects Prof.Cox has raised, as well as ideas introduced by the posters here.

I think, though, no matter how much thought we give to them, some things we simply cannot know for certain. For all such, my approach has alway been "I'll ask Him when I get there."

Thank you, JONATHAN, for mentioning the McGrath book on 'The Rise and Fall of Disbelief'. That sounds like something I would enjoy reading, probably with a frequent AHA!!

Babi

Sorry to be late but the libary just opened after the holiday. I thought the book was easy to read and the author helped me understand the reality of Jesus in his times. What a gift that was from Cox. Overall I rate the book highly.

Catholic faith - I could have misremembered the book and I don't have it with me here in the public library but I thought he went on Catholic retreats? Maybe I misremembered.

Hope we do get a discussion going on Pamuk. I've always suggested My Name Is Red because it is his masterpiece and because it provides an overview of Turkishness that is entertaining. Istanbul is Pamuk's nonfiction reflection of growing up and continuing to live in that city: an exciting, mind-opening book and it is a good companion to Red which is also set in Istanbul. Snow is a contemporary novel about head-scarf girls in a Turkish city far from cosmopolitan Istanbul.

Jonathan, I'm going to look for the book on atheism, it should be interesting to see how the author presents the topic.

Thanks everyone for such a wonderful discussion and especially DLs Ella, Babi and Ginger who lead us so cheerfully and throughtfully through the text.

Marvelle

Marvelle, I was hoping that you would come back in one more time. Yes, we had a good discussion. I think everyone should be pleased about it.

But I did want to hear from you one more time about the Pamuk books. To be reassured that a discussion could be interesting. Making it a combo of RED and ISTANBUL crossed my mind too. I'll propose it for discussion, but I'm not sure that I am the one to lead it. I've just begun reading Pamuk, so I do have a lot to learn. Just hearing you say that there is entertainment in RED puts a new slant on the book for me. I'm still in the culture shock stage. Could you find some links to the kind of miniatures featured in the book? One theme seems to me to be Islams confrontation with Western art (16c), just as today it is confronted by Western democracy. What a clever writer.

Jonathan

Jonathan, I have lots of links on miniature paintings etc and reviews of Red but I'm at a public library computer with only 3 minutes left of allowed time. When I get back online today or tomorrow I'll post some of the information in the general book discussion. I would love to discuss Red and Istanbul together or Red alone.

Marvelle

I was able to get internet access today so thought I'd post on Pamuk here. Will also post this information in the SN Book Nook.

Miniature Painting

16thC Turkish Miniatures

Time Magazine on Orhan Pamuk

There's another site which has lots of information regarding Red but I wonder if it isn't necessary at this time. At that site there are illustrations of the miniatures mentioned in Red along with Pamuk's musing on the particular artwork. Oh, but so much more at this site and it might be overwhelming until you start reading My Name Is Red. It definitely guides you through the reading along with another site I found. Maybe when we're in the discussion?

I've been asking for a discussion of this book for a few years now, long before "Read Around the World" was started, and I'm excited that people are considering it. As Traude has mentioned a few times, RATW did not vote to have it for a book discussion so that leaves us free to have a regular discussion.

Marvelle

A wonderful help in trying to understand what the talk is about in RED. And I think I can see a reason for the sadness and melancholy in ISTANBUl, with young Orhan dreaming about the city's past glories.

much obliged, Jonathan

MARVELLE & JONATHAN, it looks as though you already have the beginnings of a forum on "My Name is Red". I enjoyed the miniatures, Marvelle.

I'm going to check with the library in the town 'next door'. I do want to read about Red, to see if I find the story as mysterious as Jonathan does.

Babi

MARVELLE, JONATHAN, please count me in on any Pamuk.

BaBi, I would still like to post my thoughts on "When Jesus Came to Harvard..." , if I may, but have not been able to do it yet. Will try harder tomorrow when all the extra doses of vitamin C I have been taking have chased away my cold. Sorry about my delay. Was busy also in the "Balzac and the Little Chinese Seamstress" discussion.

I'll suggest Red in the Book Nook, along with an excerpt from it, if people are interested in it or would you rather wait and take a look at the book first? Let me know. Thanks.

Traude, hope those vitamins get you healthy and feeling good. Colds can be so miserable. I'll check in later to read you thoughts on When Jesus Came to Harvard.

Marvelle

TRAUDE, while this discussion was formally over Dec.31, it hasn't been archived yet. Feel free to say anything you like; I'd wouldn't want to miss your thoughts on the last of the book.

I hope you are feeling much better tomorrow. ...Babi

TRAUDE, get well soon. I hope you do feel well enough to share your thoughts. Take care.

BaBi,
please forgive me for being so very late. I have kept the library book way beyond the extended date and owe a hefty fine. But it was worth it to me.

A book like this cries out for being discussed within a wider circle, which broadens the outlook of every participant. That was the case here, I believe. Many thanks to the DLs and every single poster. There is a great deal more in this book than could be fully covered in a month's time.

Prof. Cox writes well and fluidly, entertainingly even. He's a bit of a thespian, he confided, and I wish I had been there to see the re-enactment of Jesus' trial with Prof. Cox, Prof. Dershowitz and Prof. Allen Callahan; not to forget the students as "jury". It must have been an event at Harvard!

I admire Prof. Cox for referring to Jesus as "Rabbi Jesus", for that is what He was, and for making it crystal clear that Christians cannot claim Him uniquely and exclusively their own. Would that more people were as open-minded as Cox, as conciliatory and willing to listen.

My parents were Lutheran and I grew up in that faith. I attended Sunday school from age 4 until elementary school began. In my all-girls high school we had religious instruction one afternoon a week, if memory serves, separately, for Catholic girls and Protestant girls.
Six Jewish girls were in my class when I was 10; they disappeared one by one. Red-headed identical twins, half-Jewish, Neuberger was their name, geniuses in math, miraculously made it all the way through graduation. There were 13 in our graduating class. Then war broke out.

Never in all those years did I hear the Jews blamed for the death of Jesus on the cross. My daughter mentioned it first, I dimly recall, and I thought it absurd. As Prof. Cox shows, it is wrong and completely unjust.

Some disappointment has been voiced about the last chapters of the book, perhaps because Cox has not given actual examples of specific moral choices for today. I believe that would have been impossible. We (and his students) have been shown a moral guide, albeit an ancient one from a different age and vastly different circumstances. The rest is up to each individual. I hope this book is not Prof. Cox's swan song.

Again, my gratitude for this exceptional joint literary venture.