Walden ~ Henry David Thoreau ~ 5/02 ~ Nonfiction
jane
March 7, 2002 - 10:13 am




Used with permission of The Concord Consortium

Please Join Us With Your Thoughts...

Below click onto one of the three e-texts of WALDEN by Henry David Thoreau.
Walden || Walden || Walden

Additional Essays:

AmericanTranscendentalism?
History of Brook Farm; includes explanation of 'Fourierism'
The Brook Farm community - includes map of area - links to: Emerson; Thoreau; Margaret Fuller; Elizabeth Palmer Peabody
George Ripley
The Age of Industry Links-- 19 c. Textile; Agriculture; Transportation; Communication; Art; Literature and Drama; Daily life and Culture.
Lives of Lowell Mill Girls
Ten Chapters of Annotations/Study Notes by Ann Woodlief; includes a brief Thoreau Bio.
Our discussion will focus on:
Week 7 -- May 25 - 31 -- Chapter 18 and wrap-up
FOCUS QUESTIONS
One of Thoreau's themes in Walden is centered around --
"How Much IS Enough?"
  • I Have you had the fortune or misfortune to inherit something other than money? Had you thought of ownership as the item owned owning you - are there things in your life now that you would prefer no longer owning because their care is taking too much of your time, your freedom?
  • II Are you in the habit of calculating how many hours of work it takes to earn an item you are about to purchase? Do you think that each item is worth the amount of time in your life that you would have to "spend" for it?
  • III Why do people seek places of quiet retreat? What do they hope to find? How might experiencing such places alter our priorities?
  • IV Today that seventy-five percent of Americans do not know their next-door neighbors. Would this either startle or be considered a problem for Thoreau? Do you see this as a problem?
  • V In your mind what number of homes or streets would you consider a Village? Do you see your local government as an extention of your Village? Do you know any of the history of your Village?
  • VI Thoreau describes how he built his chimney and plastered his walls before winter set in. What benefit, both personal and economic, is there in building something yourself rather than having someone else do it ?
  • VII Do you enjoy being able to name various trees, flower, birds, animals and know their habits? Are there memorable walks through the woods that you could write a short essay about, expressing affection for and delight in the physical details of nature and share it with your family? Do you think common animals such as bluejays, rabbits, and foxes are an important part of our world? Do you give symbolic meaning to the sounds and behavior of animals and birds?
  • VIII Have you experienced nature while others are still sleeping? Have you observed the dawning of morning? Did that experience stir within you a spiritual discovery? Do you think most people are more intellectually fulfilled and spiritually aware when they are away from the smothering cocoons of city and village life?
  • IX Thoreau argues that poverty can be a blessing and that "Money is not required to buy one necessary of the soul." Do you agree?
  • X After reading WALDEN, what ideas in it impressed you enough to make you want to change your life? What parts do you still disagree with, and why?
  • X - a Did you know you can volunteer in National Parks? Volunteers-In-Parks

A 40 question WALDEN test that will give you your results and score upon completion.







Comments? Write Barbara St. Aubrey

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Barbara St. Aubrey
March 7, 2002 - 01:07 pm
Seems to me Thoreau is still influencing our lives - how about all the books out in recent years about simplifying - Have you always wanted to read this and just never got around to it - That is my story - and to top it off we do not even have to purchase the book - I've located the book in its entirety several places on the interent - this is one book though, I bet I can find a used copy at Half Price Book Store. I wonder if this is on a required reading list in school - I remember having to read Civil Disobedance but never did read "WALDEN."

Harold Arnold
March 7, 2002 - 02:42 pm
If this discussion happens, I suspect I will be around. I have an “annotated “ edition of the book and read the book many years ago. I guess I did not see as much in it as others seem to report. I was more attracted to Thoreau's three accounts of the three long summer camping trips he took to the Maine woods in the 1840’s and 50’s. Also have read Thoreau's essay on Civil Disobedience and I have a copy of it published by the Libertarian think tank, the Cato Institute. I hope this discussion makes and will plan to participate.

here are some pictures of My Walden Pond

Nellie Vrolyk
March 7, 2002 - 06:16 pm
Since this is one of those books I've always wanted to read, I'll join you in discussing it, Barbara!

Barbara St. Aubrey
March 7, 2002 - 11:49 pm
I love it Harold - for a minute I thought you had visited Cambridge and your link was going to show us some of the photoes you took while visiting. But when your first photo came up I thought...that looked awfully much like mesquite with a bit of live oak and ceder thrown in and yes, sure'nuff it is your Walden Pond in South Texas. But an annotated edition - what a boon you will be to this discussion.

Nellie let's tit for tat on this and Botony. I think there is a bit more to both books than a stroll through nature.

Malryn (Mal)
March 8, 2002 - 10:58 am
Did you ever see the replica of Thoreau's Walden cabin in Concord, Massachusetts? It certainly doesn't look like Van Gogh's bedroom at Arles. As I recall, there's a small oriental rug on the floor, a very nice writing desk and some Hitchcock chairs and a bed. I could be mistaken about the chairs.

Speaking of chairs, did you ever see the little one in the hall of Ralph Waldo Emerson's house, also in Concord, where Thoreau used to sit and wait for an audience with the great man?

Since I love this period of history in my New England and Thoreau and Emerson are two of my heroes, if my boxes of books ever get into this apartment, I'll very happily join this discussion.

Thoreau Cabin Replica

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
March 8, 2002 - 11:19 am
Here's a picture of the interior of the replica of Thoreau's cabin at Walden Pond.

Thoreau's cabin interior

Malryn (Mal)
March 8, 2002 - 11:22 am

Walden Pond

Ella Gibbons
March 8, 2002 - 12:43 pm
Barbara, I have the book also around here somewhere, and never got around to reading it and this is just the stimulation I need. If not busy elsewhere here in the books, I'll be reading along with you; otherwise, I'll be lurking.

Lovely pictures, Malryn! I see the chairs, the desk - is the thing on the right, the blue thing, a headboard of a bed? Must be, he would have had a bed. Just the essentials - well, obviously he needed a few more but those can wait until we discuss the book.

Oh, what a gorgeous picture of the pond. Does it still look like this? What time of year, I can't decide if it's almost fall with those colors - what do you think?

Malryn (Mal)
March 8, 2002 - 03:27 pm
Ella, that picture was taken in October, 1998. In 1922 the Emerson, Forbes and Heywood families gave 80 acres of land to the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, so Walden Pond would stay as it had been. It's now a State Reservation.

The link below takes you to a picture of Walden Pond which was taken in 1996 in November.

Walden Pond, 1996

Malryn (Mal)
March 8, 2002 - 03:32 pm
I just found the text of Walden on the web at the site linked below. Count me in for this discussion, please.

Text of Walden by Henry David Thoreau

Barbara St. Aubrey
March 8, 2002 - 09:58 pm
Terrific Links Malryn - and yes, there are several sites that have the entire text for Walden in addition to some of his other essays - so this one will be so easy and inexpensive for us the glean the nuggets of wisdom shared by Thoreau. In fact the very site that allowed us to use their graphic has a link to Walden and here is another that includes both "Walden" and "On the Duty of Civil Disobedience" this is going to be fun!

Nellie Vrolyk
March 9, 2002 - 03:33 pm
Barbara, looks like discussing this book will be both fun and interesting. I look forward to it.

Malryn (Mal)
March 10, 2002 - 02:31 pm
Barb, when do you think this discussion will begin? I heard from someone who is interested in joining and am trying to get Louise from Maine to join in. I thought it would be fun to have a real New Englander who still lives there participate. I consider myself a real New Englander, but haven't lived there for many years. We New England Yankees sometimes see things in a different way from the rest of the world. You know this if you've read Walden. Wonder if Traude would like to participate? She's lived in Massachusetts for quite a while.

The Transcendentalist movement in New England fascinates me. I realized after reading about it again recently that it is a good part of the reason why I think as I do. A wonderful book about that period is The Flowering of New England by Van Wyck Brooks. What an incredible group of people like Bronson Alcott, Ralph Waldo Emerson, Margaret Fuller, Thoreau and others - and what an extraordinary experiment Brook Farm was!

Mal

Barbara St. Aubrey
March 10, 2002 - 06:19 pm
We have such a full schedule coming up - I believe we were thinking Walden for May - if we could start earlier it would depend on what the other reads are that are offered - for sure May is clear -

I'm so excited - since I really don't have to buy this book and even if I do break down I'll only spend about $3 for an old copy at Half Price Book Store - and soooo I was in Borders and lo and behold Walden on CD. I just love reading along with someone reading aloud. I not only hear things that my eye sometimes misses but I feel so taken care of hearing another voice reading - I don't remember being this excited about reading a book.

All the New Englanders among us - my oh my this will be a treat - Visited Maine in would you believe 1952 - spent a week in Boothbay Harbor followed by only a few days in Bar Harbor. There had been a fire the year before so we cut our stay short and drove across the state to some old logging road in either New Hampshire or maybe northern Vt. where we saw Indians in their logging shirts. Have to this day a lovely basket made by those Indians. This one lane steep mountain road, where we ended up behind a mule pulled wagon of lumber, led us to another Highway on to St. Johnsbury Vt. Then down the eastern side of the Hudson River where as we had gone north from New York City through Conn. Mass. but skirted Boston. We did a lot of fishing in Boothbay. The water was like ice and it was mid-summer. Enough time to see picture card scenery but not enough to really get to know the character of the people other than we found everyone friendly.

Harold Arnold
March 11, 2002 - 09:31 am
My trip to Maine came in late September in 1988. I was to attend a professional meeting at St Andrew in New Brunswick. My company routed me San Antonio to Chicago to Bangor Maine by air and then by rented automobile to St Andrew. So I had quite a drive up the coast road to the boarder and they to St Andrew. My stay at St Andrew was at an old restored 19th century Victorian hotel with a wonderful flowered grounds. Across the road were the "Loyalist" burial grounds where many of the refugees from the revolution were buried. The host company took us on a whale-spotting trip on the Bay, and I have some pretty good pictures with my 200 mm lens Nikon. On the way back I had company and we took a more inland route through the Maine woods that Thoreau had visited in a much more pristine state. Since it was the last day of September, the foliage was magnificent with many red and gold colors. Again I have pictures. Back in Bangor my flight was delayed a couple of hours causing me to miss connections at Chicago. Finally after a midnight TWA flight from Chicago, and an hour circling St Louis in a thunder-storm (I sent my resignation from the American Agonistics Society by the seat telephone), I arrived at San Antonio in time to begin my 8:30 AM office day.

Ol Imp
March 15, 2002 - 10:56 pm
It would help me to re read Walden and discuss it - I have a new pair of eyes now after 45 years -

Nellie Vrolyk
March 16, 2002 - 07:42 pm
I've ordered a copy of Walden and expect it to arrive any day now. Then I'll be all set for the discussion.

Barbara St. Aubrey
March 16, 2002 - 08:22 pm
Teriffic Nellie and Ol Imp so glad to see you will be joining us -

Barbara St. Aubrey
March 22, 2002 - 02:51 pm
YES! A start Date - I will e-mail y'all over the weekend - dust off your copy, we will start mid-April - having read some of the book I realize this is much more than a walk through the woods and so we will have until the end of May for our discussion - looks like each chapter is a mini-"Curious Mind" type of essay.

The first week we can ease in with only two Chapters to discuss and I am thinking lets take the Chapter called SPRING out of context and include it in that first week since we will still be in the Easter mindset.

In the meantime any information or thoughts you can share with us about Thoreau's life, Concord, history of the times that Thoreau lived or your thoughts on American Transcendentalism will add to our enjoyment of our reading WALDEN.

Have at it folks - I am really looking forward to this one!

Elizabeth N
March 23, 2002 - 02:27 pm
I recall that when Sophie and Nathaniel Hawthorne moved into Concord, Thoreau had already put in a veggie garden for them.

Barbara St. Aubrey
March 23, 2002 - 02:58 pm
Wow Elizabeth thanks for the tidbit - It still seems surreal that all these our most famous literary figures all knew each other and lived in the same area. I think this is the area of Emily Dickenson also isn't it. And Frost today - and of course Emerson - who else is from this area?

Hope you will be among us Elizabeth when we read and discuss Walden in April - looking forward to seeing your posts.

Elizabeth N
March 23, 2002 - 03:23 pm
Who wrote "Moby Dick"? He went to live there, and Alcott, of course. I can't join you, but I can't resist lurking.

Barbara St. Aubrey
March 23, 2002 - 04:01 pm
Elizabeth lurk all you want but give us bit of your thoughts when you can - love it - yes, Melville for Moby Dick and Alcott was from there as well - hadn't even thought of her. And she being a Civil War novelist I guess she would have been living at the same time as Thoreau. I think though Thoreau died before the war was over.

Malryn (Mal)
March 23, 2002 - 08:24 pm
Here are a few. Melville was a New Yorker and not a Transcendentalist. Robert Frost lived in Derry, New Hampshire.

"Other Transcendentalists and people close to that circle included Margaret Fuller, Theodore Parker, Elizabeth Palmer Peabody, A. Bronson Alcott, Louisa May Alcott, Nathaniel Hawthorne, George Ripley, F. B. Sanborn, Jones Very, T. W. Higginson, O. B. Frothingham, William Ellery Channing, Lydia Maria Child, Moncure Conway and many more."

Emily Dickinson lived in Amherst, Massachusetts which is north and west of Concord in the foothills of the Berkshire Hills. She was not a Trancendentalist in the true sense of the word. Emerson, Thoreau, the Alcotts, Nathaniel Hawthorne all lived in Concord.

Ralph Waldo Emerson and Margaret Fuller were considered primary influences in the Transcendentalist movement. Margaret Fuller was an "American writer and critic who edited the transcendentalist periodical Dial (1840-1842), and a pioneering literary critic for the New York Tribune (1844-1846), and wrote Woman in the Nineteenth Century (1845), a major feminist tract."

Ralph Waldo Emerson was a Unitarian minister in Concord until he decided Unitarianism had become too rigid, and he spent his time writing and lecturing on Transcendentalism.

George Ripley was an "American minister, scholar, and literary critic. An important figure in the New England Transcendentalist movement, he directed the utopian community at Brook Farm, near Boston (1841-1847), and was the literary critic of the New York Tribune (1849-1880)."

I have always felt that Thoreau stood a little outside this circle of Transcendentalists, although he certainly was a Trancendentalist. Robert D. Richardson, who has written biographies of both Emerson and Thoreau said that without Emerson there would have been no Thoreau, and without Thoreau there would have been no Emerson.

Mal

Barbara St. Aubrey
March 24, 2002 - 12:05 am
Oh Mal - as usual wonderful and great - now you have me by the tail wanting to learn more about Trancendentalist. I sort of read the link but without more than a passing interest - this is just the bait I needed to better understand the Thoreau/Emerson mind. Because from what you are saying they were the twin minds of Concord.

Malryn (Mal)
March 24, 2002 - 06:31 am
Barb, I'm not sure I agree with Richardson's assessment that Emerson and Thoreau would not have been what they were without each other. It's my feeling that they stimulated each other; played off each other.

Thoreau was far more Bohemian than Emerson was. Thoreau lived at Emerson's house when he had no other place to go, for example. Emerson loaned Thoreau part of his woodlot, so he could build the cabin at Walden Pond. Emerson appears to me to have been more stable, more consistent and less "odd" than Thoreau.

In order to understand the Transcendentalism movement, I think you have to learn something about New England, especially Massachusetts. New England thought was influenced by Puritanism and Calvinism. Religions and codes of behavior were strict and harsh. People were stern and unbending, stubborn and hidebound about what they believed, and reluctant to accept much of anything new in the way of ideas.

I'm not sure when Unitarianism came along in New England, but I'm sure when it did that people were even more horrified by its more or less no-creed principles than they were when I was growing up in the Universalist Church (which merged with the Unitarian Church and was not allowed to be in the Council of Protestant Churches at that time because of its "revolutionary" ideas.)

Unitarians do not believe in the Trinity. They do not believe in Hell. Note that Emerson, Parker and Channing were Unitarian ministers as well as Transcendentalists. It was only a step further to Transcendentalism, which is not a religion.

Transcendentalists believed in the divinity of Self and the transcendence of the physical self into a kind of Hindu or Buddhist spirituality. Both Emerson and Thoreau had studied Hinduism and Buddhism. You will see this influence in Walden.

The Transcendentalist movement was a direct result of and reaction to the Industrial Revolution, which had taken over New England so strongly. I think Emerson and Thoreau and others saw people becoming enmeshed in a machine-like way of life where the worker became part of the machine and lost his or her individuality. There was a great emphasis on materialism and a turning away from Nature.

Transcendentalists stressed individualism and self-reliance, yet thought people were part of a much bigger whole -- Nature. As I re-read Walden this time, I see Thoreau as quite self-righteous. I told someone that farmers tilling the cruel, rocky soil in Maine at that time would have laughed at what Thoreau wrote in Walden; if they had been able to read. (My grandfather was a poor Maine potato farmer.) Thoreau is less self-righteous in A Week on the Concord and Merrimack Rivers, which I began reading again, too. (I grew up in a small city on the Merrimack River -- Haverhill, Massachusetts -- which is mentioned in this book, so have a special interest in it.) Thoreau also is less "preachy" in Cape Cod. Both of these books are a wonderful way to get to know Massachusetts at that time. A wonderful book about that period is The Flowering of New England by Van Wyck Brooks.

I don't think it's necessary to do an in-depth study of Transcendentalism. You'll find out all you need to know in Walden.

It was a a glorious time for writers and thinkers, a renaissance, a liberation from old, stiff-necked ways of thinking, and much too short-lived.

Mal

betty gregory
March 24, 2002 - 07:46 am
Isn't it transcendentalism that Jo mentions in Little Women? That's why in her family, she says, "perfecting oneself" is important.

Betty

Malryn (Mal)
March 24, 2002 - 08:34 am
I don't know about Little Women, but it has never seemed to me that the Transcendentalists were seeking "perfection". Perfection seems like too lofty a goal for this group of Nature-loving people.

In the article about Transcendentalism linked above it says that Transcendentalists wanted to transcend the "confusion and chaos of the world and understand nature's signs". It also says that Transcendentalists believed in the value of the individual over society and the transcending of it, "looking past and beyond it" by following instincts and not conforming to "what society dictates."

My impression is that Transcendentalists tried to find the good as it exists in Nature and transcend what is "mean" as made by human beings.

Mal

Barbara St. Aubrey
March 24, 2002 - 12:55 pm
Mal I like "to find the good as it exists in Nature and transcend what is "mean" as made by human beings" but, yes there is always a but, seems to me there is much that can appear "mean" in nature and there is much that we could "find the good as it exists in" human beings - but than that would be arguing the value of the philosophy wouldn't it. Ah so ––

Betty so good to see your post here - you know as a child that was the one book or series counting "Little Men" that I just could not get into or enjoy. There are so many that love her work and for awhile the character dolls were all over the place. Now Hiedi I understood but Amy, and then making Jo the baddy ahmm ammm just didn't go down well with me. And so I am blank on thoughts or quotes from Alcott.

Mal I wonder –– when you pointed out your Maine grandfather's reaction it hit my wonder button - I wonder if Thoreau created this nolstalgic look of nature that so many use as a measuring stick of bucolic rustic life that seems to omit eagles feasting on the eyes of sheep or bobcats attacking goats or vines taking the moisture out of morter causing homes to weaken.

The other in your post that hit me is that this is written before the Civil War, before the auto but the railroad was a reality - I am trying to picture what machine life was like during the 1840s - need to look this one up.

Malryn (Mal)
March 24, 2002 - 03:19 pm
Barbara, where I came from there were woolen mills, fabric mills, paper mills and shoe factories in the 19th century. My hometown was a shoe town. The Merrimack River is lined with old brick mills which were built in the early 19th century. They were used extensively up until the end of World War II. Some of these have been turned into quite expensive townhouses.

Funny, I don't think Walden is a bucolic look at Nature. What I meant is that farmers down Maine -- and that's what we say in New England: "Down East" -- farmers down Maine would have laughed at a guy with soft hands and few callouses deciding to go and live in a one room cabin in the woods and be totally self-sufficient just to prove a point. That would have been my grandfather's reaction probably, but he wasn't alive at the time of the Transcendentalists, and I'm sure he never heard of them. The only book I ever saw him read was the Bible.

Any person who lives in Massachusetts, Vermont and Maine will tell you that the soil is rocky and poor; the winters are long, very cold and terribly hard (or used to be), and farming at that time was a lesson in futility.

As far as good in human beings is concerned, the Transcendentalists, as I said, were trying to transcend the "dictates of society" and do something about through writing about what was "mean" as made by human beings and conditions like men and women slaving twelve hours a day in factories, children going to work at the age of eight, no chance for a woman who stayed home to raise nine kids, cook for the hired hands, etc., etc.

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
March 24, 2002 - 03:31 pm
The link below takes you to a page about fabric mill workers in Lowell, Massachusetts around 1850. Lowell is about 25 miles from my hometown. Be sure to click the links on the page to see some pictures, especially the one of the Time Table.

Lowell Mill Girls

Barbara St. Aubrey
March 24, 2002 - 03:41 pm
AHA to your first post and the link in the second I got lost in for over an hour - I even printed out the score to the "Song of the Spinners" to play on the piano - teriffic site - it goes in the heading for now -

Jonathan
March 25, 2002 - 12:33 pm
...as usual, without knowing too much about it, I'll submit a few opinions, the first of which is suggested in the heading. My impression has been that Thoreau was some kind of Huck Finn, with a Harvard degree. What promised to be a few pleasant weeks in the New England woods is beginning to look like a far-ranging, probing examination of the many facets of intellectual and social life in that area. No doubt that could have all the attractions of a homecoming for many Americans, with a chance to take another look at such an authentic American classic. I can't imagine anyone stopping in BOOKS, without posting a comment. Mal gives me the impression of being quite homesick, bless her. She should be a most reliable guide. And there must be others.

'labor to leisure a zest imports - unknown to the idle throng'...a 'throng' of idle anywhere in New England, anytime?...hard to imagine. Will we find an answer to that in Thoreau's book? I mean an answer that would convince the spinners spinning twelve hours a day in those mills. And what's all the bell ringing about?

My curiousity about NE transcendentalism is almost as great as my scepticism. What's it all about? The name seems to say it all... if one thinks rising above or overcoming. Or getting away from it all? Here's a quote from B A Botkin:

'New England also had its rebels and non-conformists who carried the Yankee spirit of self-dependence - the right to be one's self - to extremes. Violating the sense of order inherent in the neat, tight pattern of New England farm and village life, their revolt broke through the surface of New England constraint to give us erratic geniuses like Margaret Fuller, Thoreau, and Melville, as well as a host of minor recluses, cranks, self-constituted prophets, reprobates, vagrants, and ne'er-do-wells. The very ideals of hard work, thrift, and duty produced a reaction in the form of the village-do-nothing, typified by...etc.'

Jonathan

Malryn (Mal)
March 25, 2002 - 04:56 pm
Good to see you, Jonathan.

As a former New Englander, who has northern New England in her blood, I will say that I never considered Herman Melville part of the Transcendentalist movement. Though his parternal ancestors were from Boston, his maternal ancestors and his mother were from "Dutch" New York. Melville's father lived in New York City and sent him to a fine school there. With business reverses, Allan Melville moved his family to Albany, NY. At the time of his father's death, Herman had to go to work. He spent time working on an uncle's farm in Pittsfield, Massachusetts, which was a good long way from Boston and Concord in those days. Pittsfield is close to the New York state line. Up until this time I have never heard Melville's name mentioned with Transcendentalists such as Emerson and Thoreau.

Mal

Barbara St. Aubrey
March 25, 2002 - 05:06 pm
Well I will just sit back and let you New Englanders work this out hehehe - but it is giving me a sence of the New England spirit, which if I read y'all correctly is a tight mind in keeping with tidy tight borders and Thoreau was a rebel either with or without a cause as we will find out when we read the text - I am hoping.

Welcome Johnathan so glad you will be joining us - this is so great to have all these New England by birth minds - OH yes I should say that we are in for a treat - one of our readers has e-mailed me she has a copy of the ANNOTATED WALDEN - I'll let her have the glory of telling you more in her own posts.

Malryn (Mal)
March 25, 2002 - 05:12 pm
Barb:

Jonathan's Canadian.

Mal

Barbara St. Aubrey
March 25, 2002 - 05:19 pm
Aha - hehehe don't take offense but - a Yankee never the less! I just think this is fun - and y'alls posts really give some understanding of the character, or as these days I like to call it the DNA, of a people because not only of their community but the land itself seems to affect the community spirit.

paltos
March 25, 2002 - 09:39 pm
I will probably be lurking about during these discussions, wearing my black mask. Even us Brits have heard about and read thoreau. though his cabin at walden pond was probably stark by his standards it was a palace compared to many others, oh to have the luxury of living by the pond and admiring the surroundings, comtemplating the beauty of nature and searching for the meaning of life, not having to "Mill" for ones bread and venison. I will enjoy listening . yall sound very knowledgable. does living in Maine for two years go a short way to becoming a Yankee???

Malryn (Mal)
March 25, 2002 - 09:57 pm
Palto, if you managed to get through two Maine winters, you can consider yourself a Yank! (Of course, it depends on where you were. Kittery just doesn't compare to Lubec!)

Mal

Jonathan
March 25, 2002 - 10:15 pm
Never! Without being disloyal to Her Royal Majesty, the Queen, God bless Her, and keep Her, I am nevertheless intensely proud of having an Honorary US Citizenship conferred on me in the John Adams discussion, a few months ago. Wasn't JA the quintessential New Englander?

As for a sense of community, the spirit of it now transcends borders. I never felt that more than I did last September. After spending the night in Lee, Mass, I drove north towards Pittsfield, to pay a visit to Melville's farmhouse, Arrowhead, I believe, where he wrote Moby Dick. Never did get inside. Just sat in my car, on the parking lot, listening to the reports from NYC. It was the morning of Sept 11th.

Mal, couldn't you concede that there was something transcendental about Capt Ahab's spiritual adventure with the whale? Melville was on the scene, and must have been aware of what and how the others were writing. No man is an island...except perhaps Thoreau, who seemed determined to try to be one.

Jonathan

Malryn (Mal)
March 25, 2002 - 10:57 pm
Oh, okay, Jonathan.

Mal

Barbara St. Aubrey
March 26, 2002 - 02:32 am
paltos - welcome and please do not feel you must lurk - goodness look at all the Brit authors we have read here on seniornet - plus a few Scots, Irish, Itialian, Chinese, Russian, Canadian on and on - here is the short list of those just from the British Isles -
Now if we could dope out these authors we can give you carte blanche to have at Thoreau - hehe it would be fun to figure out if you actually lived closer to Concord than I do - I'm 2000 miles away - I do not have anything here in my home that is telling me how far over the Atlantic Concord Mass. is from you hometown. It would be fun to figure out though wouldn't it -

Oh my Johnathan I bet you were confused how to go forward - did you end up going back home on 9/11 or were you so stunned that you sat comatose in front of a TV like the rest of us -

By the way didn't the Transcendental movement start in England - Seems to me while we read Coolridge we became aware that he was a Unitarian with connections to the Transcendental movement.

I am wondering if Thoreau was so much trying to be an Island or just living cheap - seems from what I am reading the walk to town was short enough that he took the walk often during his living by the pond and even stayed the night with friends from time to time.

Malryn (Mal)
March 26, 2002 - 07:19 am
You can find the rest of this article by going to Transcendentalism

"The general philosophical concept of transcendence, or belief in a higher reality not validated by sense experience or pure reason, was developed in ancient times by Parmenides and Plato. Plato referred to a realm of ideal Forms that was unknowable through the senses, and theologians since have spoken of God in the same way. The term transcendentalism is sometimes used to describe Immanuel Kant's philosophy and the philosophies of later German Idealists influenced by Kant."

Malryn (Mal)
March 26, 2002 - 07:24 am
I disagree with the statement in the article I linked that there was "mutual loathing of Unitarianism" among Transcendentalists. There was not. In fact, Unitarianism was the chosen religion of most of them.

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
March 26, 2002 - 07:37 am
One of the biggest reasons Thoreau went to Walden Pond to live was because he wanted to write A Week on the Concord and Merrimack Rivers. He toured those rivers with his brother who later died. It was a long walk into town from Thoreau's cabin, and would have been extremely hard in the snows of winter.

Have you started reading the book yet? If you haven't, you'll learn more when you do.

"When I wrote the following pages, or rather the bulk of them, I lived alone, in the woods, a mile from any neighbor, in a house which I had built myself, on the shore of Walden Pond, in Concord, Massachusetts, and earned my living by the labor of my hands only. I lived there two years and two months. At present I am a sojourner in civilized life again."
Mal

Harold Arnold
March 26, 2002 - 09:45 am
Malryn, did you note how the Thoreau’s brother died? He cut his finger sharpening his razor, and developed lock Jaw (Tetnus) which killed him in short order.

Jonathan & Paltos, it will be good to have a Canadian/English view in this discussion. I really appreciated Jonathon’s input to our recent “John Adams” discussion. He made a significant contributation to its success. I think the borders separating the U.S. from Canada and the U.K. have been transcended for at least the past 100 years. If either of you are inclined to lurk in our Mutiny on the Bounty discussion, and perhaps add an English input to our Bligh vs Christian debate you would be most welcome. (We do have one Canadian but no one from the U.K.)

paltos
March 26, 2002 - 08:35 pm
this is appears to be a opinionated bunch, must be Yankees, be interesting to see just how things go after 4/15/02 I think we were all stunned 9/11 it was hard to believe such tragedies could happen here. The whole world is a small island sometimes we may wish for the isolation thoreau experienced. I live in wash. State now, that is probably about 2700 miles from concord as the crow flies. looking forward with great anticipation for the discussion to really start see you all 4/15 Jonathon I can see Victoria B.C from my front windows just 17 miles across the water My original home town was Portobello now part of Edinburgh Scotland the town in Maine was Winter Harbor a lobster fishing village.

Malryn (Mal)
March 26, 2002 - 08:49 pm
Palto, I have lived in the Southeast for 20 years. Am now a few miles south of Chapel Hill, North Carolina. I've also lived in Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Maryland, New York, Indiana and Florida. Barbara and Harold are in Texas. There's not a Yankee among us, except I'll never get New England out of my system.

Mal

Jonathan
March 26, 2002 - 10:18 pm
paltos, it sounds like you have a place with a magnificent view. Can you see Salt Spring Island from your window. I have a niece who lives there. I live in the east.

I hope you don't mind opinions. Thanks, Barbara, for that carte blanche format. That should give everybody lots of scope! Come to think of it, well, I haven't thought it, I'm just concluding from what I've heard, that the distance to Concord could very well be just a matter of opinion, since some say that New England, and certainly Walden, is a state of mind. So it doesn't matter whether you're in Texas, or in Washington...how far away, how close, how strange, or how congenial it will turn out to be...getting to know that should be a lot of fun.

Jonathan

Barbara St. Aubrey
March 27, 2002 - 03:11 am
Perfect Jonathan - I love it - yes, a state of mind - and yes, carte blanch, as if we were all sitting around a cafe table tossing out our thoughts, transforming data into deeper understanding and what it means to us - in fact what it all means or the so-whats and so-now-whats of reading is more relevent then a literary critique.

Thorea's ideas have affected the course of history; and for us this can be our opportunity not just to look at that historical significance but, to see the relevance of Thorea's ideas in light of our everyday world, so that we can choose to integrate some of these thoughts as personal learning.

So bring on the facts but let's also express our heart - Oh yes, let's continue to step respectfully around the raw beating hearts of our reading friends.

Malryn (Mal)
March 27, 2002 - 09:37 am
Forgive me, but I don't think Thoreau's ideas changed history. He was more or a less a secondary figure, especially to Emerson, until the sixties and seventies generations picked up on some things he said in Walden.

These kids called Hippies idealized Walden, began their communes, their interest in the environment, organic gardening (in between their transcendental way of getting stoned!), a return to the past in a similar way to what Thoreau tried and did not continue at Walden Pond. It's interesting that ancient Hindus used a hallucinogen they called "Soma", isn't it? There's much about Hinduism and Buddhism in what Emerson and Thoreau wrote, and I do see parallels to their philosophies there.

Since Walden is not primarily a thesis about New England and Nature, but is, rather, a philosophical work, I'm sure there will be much to discuss. Thoreau was a student of the classics at Harvard, as Jonathan mentioned, and it shows.

Mal

Harold Arnold
March 27, 2002 - 11:23 am
I suppose the word-by-word reading of Walden by itself is of little value as history. Yet my experience the past three weeks in re-reading my 500 page, coffee-table size, illustrated, annotated edition taken as a whole has been much the reading of a social history of the period. Each page in this edition is split into two columns with text including Thoreau Biography material, background material, the “Walden” text, and ‘Civil Disobedience” in the left column and explanative annotations in the right column. Taken as a whole (incliding the reading of the annotations) this edition does paint a rather good picture of the society in which Thoreau lived and wrote. While I would not argue thet Thoreau's himself changed history I might argue that the ideas expressed in his writings including "Walden" contributed to changes resulting in our society today

Annotated Walden

Malryn (Mal)
March 27, 2002 - 11:40 am
That leaves me out then, Harold. I don't have the $35.13 to buy the annotated Walden or even enough to get a used copy of the un-annotated one. I was re-reading it off the web, since my books have never been unpacked after my last move.

This preliminary discussion was fun, though. Thanks. I enjoyed it.

Mal

Barbara St. Aubrey
March 27, 2002 - 01:10 pm
Ah Malryn please do not take your immy bag of marbles home - we are all learning from each other and we will all have differing opinions and we will all have different access to research material - I don't have the annotated edition either and where the annotations can shed much light on the topic, they are not the 'end all be all' of expertise.

Where I was giving the man credit is because the many sites on the internet that not only reference the Hippie movement but say that both Ghandi and Dr. King read and used the philosophy of Thoreau when they changed the world as we knew it. Therefore, to me, if Thoreau didn't scribble his thoughts on paper in the 1840s a line of action may not have happened.

Malryn hope you will continue to share your insights and knowledge along with the rest of us in our efforts to share but most important learn more and intigrate into our lives what we learn during this read.

Barbara St. Aubrey
March 27, 2002 - 01:41 pm
OK folks if you prefer to purchase the book and have not yet made that purchase - and you would like to consider an annotated edition - no, not the wonderful edition that Harold has from which I am sure he will be pleased to share with us tid bits of information - but an annotated edition of Walden maybe ordered for just under $12 including shipping. Here is the link to the availablities - the least expensive that I could find like Harold's edition was $21 + shipping. - Oh yes the shipping costs are calculated into these prices and they are the shipping costs to Texas - the price could vary according to the cost of shipping to your home.

http://www.addall.com/New/compare.cgi?dispCurr=USD&id=218602&isbn=0880299312&location=10000&thetime=20020327123155&author=&title=&state=TX

YiLi Lin
March 27, 2002 - 04:01 pm
Mal- sorry I was not around to contribute to your wonderful post #28. Aha yes .

YiLi Lin
March 27, 2002 - 04:08 pm
Philosophy, I thought, was for discussion. So I look forward to agreeing and disagreeing with T's view of the world, and like with those other major players noting how they not only contributed historically to the social and cultural order I believe it is important to see how their world view has contributed to teh social and cultural present. I think that we have developed our personal perceptions, values etc. not only from society but from those philosophers and philosophies that have helped create societies.

I think the walden experience 'transcends' Thoreau. As a whole I think each of us has an opportunity to create both internal and external waldens- or not.

Ol Imp
March 27, 2002 - 05:03 pm
"The wind that blows ,- is all that anybody knows"

Nellie Vrolyk
March 27, 2002 - 07:28 pm
My copy of Walden -not annotated- arrived a couple of days ago, and I have started reading; and there is lots there for thinking about and discussing -and I'm only on the first chapter.

ALF
March 28, 2002 - 06:15 am
Welcome Ole Imp. Are you a new poster or have I been negligent in my welcoming duties here on Seniornet? We are happy to see you posting here.

Jonathan
March 28, 2002 - 11:42 am
Harold - we'll be needing your annotated Walden more than ever now that Mal has withdrawn from the upcoming discussion. I think we should continue even without the great contribution she would have made in helping us to understand the complex milieu behind this unusual book. What a pity, with her own deep roots in the strange New England soil. But my guess is that Mal was beginning to suspect the truth about this odd character and his quaint notions and his philosophic sweet-talk, and wished to dissociate herself from it. The greater-than-down-to-earth flavor of the book is as far from the transcendental as it is from good sound reality...at least at the point in the book at which I have arrived.

Jonathan

Barbara St. Aubrey
March 28, 2002 - 02:30 pm
Alf - Ol Imp joined us for the Dylan Thomas read - a well traveled man with insight to the world and motercycles

Welcome is right - to Ol Imp, and you Alf and Yili Lin has pulled up a chair as well - Nellie has her head in her book - are you ordering coffee or tea Nellie? What about it - what are y'all having - herbal tea or an expresso - Jonathan we will miss Mal but if I read her post correctly she is only excusing herself from this initial pre-discussion chat we are having about the influences of and on Thoreau - or I hope that is how I read Malryn's post.

Again, though this could be a discussion trying to only learn what other writers and history have said are the influences of and on Thoreau - I do hope we can each discover in this man's writings what is relevent to us today and to our own individual lives. Therefore, where all the background information is valuable it is not the only way we want to understand this work.

Yes, I'm excited about and we all look forward to what you can share Harold. I believe there is another poster, not yet signed in, that has an annotated edition. Also, those that like to research on the net, please share the links when they are appropriate. And the most important your own thoughts and personal insights understood as you read.

Barbara St. Aubrey
March 28, 2002 - 02:37 pm
OK, Trying to place this man in the culture of the 1840s. What were his social influences - Still had some of my children's old History books and a look at some links on the net - looks like we have a list here - so let's put him into the history and culture of his times.

Barbara St. Aubrey
March 28, 2002 - 02:47 pm

paltos
March 28, 2002 - 03:08 pm
Malryn, Thoreau did not change history,?? as you noted Thoreau became some what of a fad in the 60's and 70's, the hippies, communes, and civil disobedience certainly seem to have had an affect on our modern history, the idea that the enviroment played an important role in all our lives was really brought to the fore front and, that I believe, bears a direct relationship to Thoreau and his thoughts at Walden.

Barbara St. Aubrey
March 28, 2002 - 03:36 pm
paltos - I'm here posting at the same time - interesting that most of us know of the affect Thoreau's Civil Disobedience had on the 60s and 70s but in addition I am finding some interesting things I never thought of.

He evidently has affected the vegitarian movement as well as, other great leaders - and as you say the enviornmental movement often quotes his work. Here is some information I found on the net to back up all you are sharing.

From History of Vegetarianism

Malryn (Mal)
March 28, 2002 - 06:53 pm
It's my impression that the Hippies and their "revolution" changed history in this country and elsewhere more than Thoreau and Walden did, no matter what today's history books say. The Hippies were about as successful at their "back to the land", pseudo-Waldenesque attempt as Thoreau was 125 years before at Walden Pond on land his mentor and guide, Ralph Waldo Emerson loaned him. Without Emerson's help, Thoreau would not have been able to do many of the things he did. Thoreau knew Emerson always would give him a roof over his head and food to eat in exchange for a few chores when the goin' got tough -- which it often did for Thoreau.

Who among ordinary people ever heard of Thoreau until the Hippies misread, exaggerated and idealized Walden and what Thoreau said in it? Thoreau and Emerson and other Transcendentalists had an impact on New England during their time, but if you had asked many people on the street when I was growing up in Massachusetts in the 30's and 40's, and even in the mid 70's to early 80's when I went back to live there, who Henry David Thoreau was most of them would not have known.

I lived there; I grew up there, I was and am steeped in the culture. I have a pretty good idea of what went on.

Jonathan is partly right when he says I suspect some truth about Thoreau. You see, it's funny, but New Englanders were people who had strong principles like "Waste not, want not, live sparse and lean" long before Thoreau ever came along. It seems to me that Thoreau philosophized some pretty commonly held New England beliefs in Walden.

I heard talk about the spendthrift rich and their lack of common sense that had come down through generations when I was just a kid from people who never knew who Thoreau was, and I refuse to join the parade of scholars that glamorize Thoreau. It certainly is something he would never, ever have approved of.

This is part of what I see as a born and bred New Englander (who married a New Englander more staunch about it than I was), and I still have relatives there in Massachusetts, New Hampshire and Maine.

By the way, Barb, Gandhi was a Hindu. Non-violence is preached in Hinduism. He may have read Thoreau's Civil Disobedience, but I suspect that Gandhi advocated civil disobedience through the means of non-violence long before he read Thoreau. After all, Hinduism and Buddhism are what gave Thoreau the idea. Actually, come to think of it, Thoreau was not the most imaginative and creative kind of man.

Mal

Harold Arnold
March 28, 2002 - 08:46 pm
Thoreau while not exactly filthy rich was not exactly poor either. He was a 3rd generation North American. His grandfather was from the Isle of Jersey. His coming to America was not intentional as he was a member of the crew of a privateer that was ship wrecked. He stayed and apparently enjoyed some success as his son, Thoreau's father owned a graphite and pencil manufacturing business. Thoreau worked there in a management capacity on occasion. Obviously he was not very interest in permanent employment there.

Somewhere I read that Thoreau even developed an improved manufacturing process bettering the profitability of the business. These Pencils sold for $0.75/ dozen in a local Boston retail store at the time. An annotation mentions that a dozen Thoreau pencils sold for $100 in 1964. I suspect they would go for quite a bit more than that today!

Barbara St. Aubrey
March 28, 2002 - 08:51 pm
Whoops Harold you came along since I started to write this essentially to Mal - $100 for a dozen historically made pencils - OK but you know I think if the man himself held them then I too would bid 10 times $100

Hehehe Mel I bet Washington never imagined his cutting down that dang cherry tree was going to be the remembered gesture of his youth... I guess I am saying that some folks may be leaders in their time and know it and others become Icons many years later as folks identify with their thoughts and as you are saying some of these thoughts are only the result of the culture of the time and place the so called Icon lived in. So worthy hero or not, he has become an Icon and anyone that shares similar thoughts since his books were written are tied to the results of reading or knowing of Thoreau's books.

The other concept that comes to my mind is some of us are better at articulating what is common knowledge and later they are then the highest poppy that gets credit for the shared folklore or cultural ways common to the people at the time.

But again as I say Mal - it is fun to find out about the life that Thoreau was a part - Who ever and how ever these ideas came about, our encounter can offer us the opportunity to choose one or more of these ideas or concepts that resonates a new personal understanding and incorperate it into our life.

I'm having a hard time just writting tonight - Would you believe I've got a CD of the 1960s Icon to music Joan Baez playing. Her voice and music still makes my heart sing.

Harold Arnold
March 28, 2002 - 09:05 pm
Barbara, which one did you get? A month or so back for the first time in 15 plus years I set up my old turntable and played some of the old albums including the Baez, "Diamonds and Rust" album. They sounded real good. Despite the slight background hiss in some respects the old technology sounds better than the CD's.

ALF
March 28, 2002 - 09:44 pm
Did any of you watch Jeopardy this evening? There was a category on Thoreau's Walden. Due to your contributions on this site I was able to answer every one of those questions.

Malryn (Mal)
March 28, 2002 - 10:39 pm

"THOREAU'S thin, penetrating, big-nosed face, even in a bad woodcut, conveys some hint of the limitations of his mind and character. With his almost acid sharpness of insight, with his almost animal dexterity in act, there went none of that large, unconscious geniality of the world's heroes. He was not easy, not ample, not urbane, not even kind; his enjoyment was hardly smiling, or the smile was not broad enough to be convincing; he had no waste lands nor kitchen-midden in his nature, but was all improved and sharpened to a point. 'He was bred to no profession,' says Emerson; 'he never married; he lived alone; he never went to church; he never voted; he refused to pay a tax to the State; he ate no flesh, he drank no wine, he never knew the use of tobacco and, though a naturalist, he used neither trap nor gun. When asked at dinner what dish he preferred, he answered, 'the nearest.' ' So many negative superiorities begin to smack a little of the prig. From his later works he was in the habit of cutting out the humorous passages, under the impression that they were beneath the dignity of his moral muse; and there we see the prig stand public and confessed. It was 'much easier,' says Emerson acutely, much easier for Thoreau to say no than yes; and that is a characteristic which depicts the man. It is a useful accomplishment to be able to say no, but surely it is the essence of amiability to prefer to say yes where it is possible. There is something wanting in the man who does not hate himself whenever he is constrained to say no. And there was a great deal wanting in this born dissenter. He was almost shockingly devoid of weaknesses; he had not enough of them to be truly polar with humanity; whether you call him demi-god or demi-man, he was at least not altogether one of us, for he was not touched with a feeling of our infirmities. The world's heroes have room for all positive qualities, even those which are disreputable, in the capacious theatre of their dispositions. Such can live many lives; while a Thoreau can live but one, and that only with perpetual foresight."



Robert Louis Stevenson
Cornhill Hagazine

Barbara St. Aubrey
March 28, 2002 - 11:01 pm
HeHeHe you do not like Thoreau hahah The prig hehehe do you Malryn... You are so funny.

Harold I have her: Greatest Hits - Joan Baez in Concert - Joan Baez Noël. I Just love that clear voice of hers - I would love to get a CD of Spanish music with her singing but I do not know even if there is such an album - can't spell her name but Linda Rhanstad ought to have an albam and she is another 60/70s artist - I have seen her a few times doing an all Mexican concert on PBS and loved it.

No, Alf I didn't see Jeopardy - had music on instead - I'm impatiently waiting for the Spring drive on PBS to be over in that usaully thursday night is Mystery Theatre for me.

Malryn (Mal)
March 28, 2002 - 11:10 pm
Barb:

I very much like what Thoreau says and always have. That amusing Stevenson article may be closer to the truth than you think. Thoreau was always considered "odd".

Mal

Elizabeth N
March 29, 2002 - 10:10 am
Stevenson's article about Henry David was amusing and he writes like an angel, but I think he was unduely harsh here. As I mentioned before, Thoreau put in a veggie garden for the Hawthornes before they arrived--folks he had not met yet. Every summer when his melons became ripe he gave a party for a good many people who sat around his garden and stuffed themselves. He used to go sky-hooting through the hills with his pal Channing (son of); one time they were walking for miles toward a distant object, a farmhouse with open doors was in their direct way--the family dining as they walked through the house. (I have a friend who "knows" they were a gay couple.) We know Thoreau experienced an ecstatic awareness of Nature's beauties and we bless him for sharing that with us. He also worked for his father when his presence was necessary--as a dutiful son would. With all respect and love to R. L. Stevenson's opinion--he wasn't so bad.

Jonathan
March 29, 2002 - 10:11 am
Barbara, you were certainly right, when you said this was going to be more than a pleasant walk in the woods. No doubt it will be pleasant...in fact an opportunity, in natural surroundings, for each of us to do a bit of self-examination (in a puritan, calvinistic, NE fashion, haha). Now it does seem there is a dark side to Walden...nothing to condemn or to be afraid of...but there may be a few things to go bump in the night. Will the real Thoreau please stand up. The Stevenson quote shocks my preconceptions of Thoreau. I have the book somewhere in the house, but I can't seem to find it. Now I'm wondering if it would also be helpful in getting to know the real Thoreau. It's S Freud's Civilization and its Malcontents. Would that seem to far out?

Jonathan

Jonathan
March 29, 2002 - 10:12 am
now that's reassuring, Elizabeth. Thanks

Jonathan

Malryn (Mal)
March 29, 2002 - 10:57 am
"He was no ascetic, rather an Epicurean of the nobler sort; and he had this one great merit, that he succeeded so far as to be happy. "I love my fate to the core and rind," he wrote once; and even while he lay dying, here is what he dictated (for it seems he was already too feeble to control the pen): 'You ask particularly after my health. I suppose that I have not many months to live, but of course know nothing about it. I may say that I am enjoying existence as much as ever, and regret nothing.' It is not given to all to bear so clear a testimony to the sweetness of their fate, nor to any without courage and wisdom; for this world in itself is but a painful and uneasy place of residence, and lasting happiness, at least to the self-conscious, comes only from within. Now Thoreau's content and ecstasy in living was, we may say, like a plant that he had watered and tended with womanish solicitude; for there is apt to be something unmanly, something almost dastardly, in a life that does not move with dash and freedom, and that fears the bracing contact of the world. In one word, Thoreau was a skulker. He did not wish virtue to go out of him among his fellow-men, but slunk into a corner to hoard it for himself. He left all for the sake of certain virtuous self-indulgences. It is true that his tastes were noble; that his ruling passion was to keep himself unspotted from the world; and that his luxuries were all of the same healthy order as cold tubs and early rising. But a man may be both coldly cruel in the pursuit of goodness, and morbid even in the pursuit of health. I cannot lay my hands on the passage in which he explains his abstinence from tea and coffee, but I am sure I have the meaning correctly. It is this; He thought it bad economy and worthy of no true virtuoso to spoil the natural rapture of the morning with such muddy stimulants; let him but see the sun rise, and he was already sufficiently inspirited for the labours of the day. That may be reason good enough to abstain from tea; but when we go on to find the same man, on the same or similar grounds, abstain from nearly everything that his neighbours innocently and pleasurably use, and from the rubs and trials of human society itself into the bargain, we recognise that valetudinarian healthfulness which is more delicate than sickness itself. We need have no respect for a state of artificial training. True health is to be able to do without it. Shakespeare, we can imagine, might begin the day upon a quart of ale, and yet enjoy the sunrise to the full as much as Thoreau, and commemorate his enjoyment in vastly better verses. A man who must separate himself from his neighbours' habits in order to be happy, is in much the same case with one who requires to take opium for the same purpose. What we want to see is one who can breast into the world, do a man's work, and still preserve his first and pure enjoyment of existence."

Malryn (Mal)
March 29, 2002 - 11:02 am
"Thoreau's faculties were of a piece with his moral shyness; for they were all delicacies. He could guide himself about the woods on the darkest night by the touch of his feet. He could pick up at once an exact dozen of pencils by the feeling, pace distances with accuracy, and gauge cubic contents by the eye. His smell was so dainty that he could perceive the foetor of dwelling-houses as he passed them by at night; his palate so unsophisticated that, like a child, he disliked the taste of wine -- or perhaps, living in America, had never tasted any that was good; and his knowledge of nature was so complete and curious that he could have told the time of year, within a day or so, by the aspect of the plants. In his dealings with animals, he was the original of Hawthorne's Donatello. He pulled the woodchuck out of its hole by the tail; the hunted fox came to him for protection; wild squirrels have been seen to nestle in his waistcoat; he would thrust his arm into a pool and bring forth a bright, panting fish, lying undismayed in the palm of his hand. There were few things that he could not do. He could make a house, a boat, a pencil, or a book. He was a surveyor, a scholar, a natural historian. He could run, walk, climb, skate, swim, and manage a boat. The smallest occasion served to display his physical accomplishment; and a manufacturer, from merely observing his dexterity with the window of a railway carriage, offered him a situation on the spot. 'The only fruit of much living,' he observes, 'is the ability to do some slight thing better.' But such was the exactitude of his senses, so alive was he in every fibre, that it seems as if the maxim should be changed in his case, for he could do most things with unusual perfection. And perhaps he had an approving eye to himself when he wrote: 'Though the youth at last grows indifferent, the laws of the universe are not indifferent, but are for ever on the side of the most sensitive.' "

Malryn (Mal)
March 29, 2002 - 11:16 am

Thoreau-Emerson letters, the Dial period

Malryn (Mal)
March 29, 2002 - 11:20 am

Thoreau's handwriting

Malryn (Mal)
March 29, 2002 - 11:34 am
"Mr. Thorow [sic] dined with us yesterday. He is a singular character -- a young man with much wild original nature still remaining in him; and so far as he is sophisticated, it is in a way and method of his own. He is as ugly as sin, long-nosed, queer-mouthed, and with uncouth and somewhat rustic, although courteous manners, corresponding very well with such an exterior. But his ugliness is of an honest and agreeable fashion, and becomes him much better than beauty. He was educated, I believe, at Cambridge, and formerly kept school in this town; but for two or three years back, he has repudiated all regular modes of getting a living, and seems inclined to lead a sort of Indian life among civilized men -- an Indian life, I mean, as respects the absence of any systematic effort for a livelihood. He has been for sometime an inmate of Mr. Emerson's family; and, in requittal, he labors in the garden and performs such other offices as may suit him -- being entertained by Mr. Emerson for the sake of what true manhood there is in him. Mr. Thorow is a keen and delicate observer of nature -- a genuine observer, which, I suspect, is almost as rare a character as even an original poet; and Nature, in return for his love, seems to adopt him as her especial child, and shows him secrets which few others are allowed to witness. He is familiar with beast, fish, fowl, and reptile, and has strange stories to tell of adventures, and friendly passages with these lower brethern of mortality. Herb and flower, likewise, wherever they grow, whether in garden, or wild wood, are his familiar friends. He is also on intimate terms with the clouds and can tell the portents of storms. It is a characteristic trait, that he has a great regard for the memory of the Indian tribes, whose wild life would have suited him so well; and strange to say, he seldom walks over a ploughed field without picking up an arrow-point, a spear-head, or other relic of the red men -- as if their spirits willed him to be the inheritor of their simple wealth."

Malryn (Mal)
March 29, 2002 - 11:37 am
"'David Henry' after leaving college was eccentric and did not like to, and so would not, work. The opposite of John in every particular, he was [a] thin, insignificant, poorly dressed, careless looking young man, ..."

Malryn (Mal)
March 29, 2002 - 11:49 am



"There comes ________, for instance; to see him's rare sport,
Tread in Emerson's tracks with legs painfully short;
How he jumps, how he strains, and gets red in the face,
To keep step with the mystagogue's natural pace!
He follows as close as a stick to a rocket,
His fingers exploring the prophet's each pocket.
Fie, for shame, brother bard; with good fruit of your own,
Can't you let Neighbor Emerson's alone?
Besides 't is no use, you'll not find e'en a core,--
________ has picked up all the windfalls before."

Harold Arnold
March 29, 2002 - 12:12 pm
I was surprised at the Robert L. Stevenson writings of Thoreau. The two were hardly contemporaries, RLS being only 10 years old when Thoreau died. Yet the quotations certainly indicate Stevenson thoroughly read and studied Thoreau’s writings and perhaps even had information from other sources. Are there any indications in the Stevenson material as to why Stevenson became interested enough in Thoreau to write the articles?

I suppose one might draw some sort of parallel between the two lives with Stevenson’s withdrawal from his home country to live and die in the South Pacific being roughly equal to Thoreau’s Walden years. Do any of you who are more familiar with Stevenson’s writings than I note the tint of transcendentalism? There is no mention of the RLS writings in the annotated edition of“Walden.”

Barbara St. Aubrey
March 29, 2002 - 12:38 pm
This is me sharing - I've removed my discussion leader hat -

The Stevenson quote reminded me of the typical European view of puritanical America with that ironic wit that is previlent in the British Isles. In other words Stevenson to me was complaining that the man had no vices and he was uglier than sin to look at.

It was Stevensoon's view that he was self-rightous - where as reading the article about vegitarians, at first, he simply thought it was easier, with less of a mess and cleaner and less expensive to eat vegtables. Later he had seen fish and animals in a different light and his Bambi view came to play. He wasn't trying to be self-rightous only practical and cheap.

Hehe I bet he didn't marry because it cost too much.

Where as Hawthorne, Pricilla Rice Edes and James Russell Lowell sounded to me just like the complaints of the 1960s as parents were shocked and out-raged over not only their childrens behavior and dress but what they saw as their lack-a-daisical approach to school. Thoreau was evidently not considered a good looking man, he was thought a user (which is what we thought the youth of the hippie movement were) and his vegetarian ways and his lack of marriage were suspect in a society that was not only proper but was still proving how far they had come from the backwoods image that Europe had of Americans. A hearty, meat-centered meal was European.

Malryn (Mal)
March 29, 2002 - 03:06 pm
Your assessment of Stevenson, Barb, is pretty much right when it came to superior Englishmen looking down their noses at Americans. There also is some truth in what Stevenson says about Thoreau.

Remember we're talking about New England here and New Englanders. They wouldn't have cared whether Thoreau ate meat or not. Many people couldn't afford anything except maybe a chicken on Sunday to last the week, a soup bone, or fish they caught. They had vegetable gardens and canned vegetables and fruit to last through the winter; ate far more vegetables than meat. Even when I was growing up, we had meat loaf, roast chicken or pot roast on Sunday, and it was supposed to last through the week. There were plenty of canned vegetables in winter that we "put up" in August at harvest time.

They wouldn't have cared whether he married or not. There were plenty of "baches" and spinsters in New England, you know.

What these people did care about was work. If you didn't work in New England it was tantamount to sin. Thoreau sponged off people so he could do what he wanted to do, and I'm sure there were plenty who watched him and didn't appreciate it at all.

Thoreau says in a letter to Emerson: "....to thank you and Mrs. Emerson for your long kindness to me. It would be more ungrateful than my constant thought I have been your pensioner for nearly two years, and still left free as the sky.".

How do you think this kind of behavior would go over in work-ethic New England? Well, I'll tell you. Not well at all.

By the way, people in New England did not say Thaur-O. They said Thorough, accent on the first syllable.

Mal

Barbara St. Aubrey
March 29, 2002 - 03:26 pm
aha the work-ethic!

Malryn (Mal)
March 29, 2002 - 03:31 pm
"His virtues, of course, sometimes ran into extremes. It was easy to trace to the inexorable demand in all for exact truth that austerity which made this willing hermit more solitary even than he wished. Himself of a perfect probity, he required not less of others. He had a disgust at crime, and no worldly success could cover it. He detected paltering as readily in dignified and prosperous persons as in beggars, and with equal scorn. Such dangerous frankness was in his dealing that his admires called him 'that terrible Thoreau,' as if he spoke when silent, and was still present when he had departed. I think the severity of his ideal interfered to deprive him of a healthy sufficiency of human society.



"The habit of a realist to find things the reverse of their appearance inclined him to put every statement in a paradox. A certain habit of antagonism defaced his earlier writings,--a trick of rhetoric not quite outgrown in his later, of substituting for the obvious word and thought its diametrical opposite. He praised wild mountains and winter forests for their domestic, air, in snow and ice he would find sultriness, and commended the wilderness for resembling Rome and Paris. 'It was so dry, that you might call it wet.'"





"Had his genius been only contemplative, he had been fitted to his life, but with his energy and practical ability he seemed born for great enterprise and for command; and I so much regret the loss of his rare powers of action, that I cannot help counting it a fault in him that he had no ambition. Wanting this, instead of engineering for all America, he was the captain of a huckleberry party. Pounding beans is good to the end of pounding empires one of these days; but if, at the end of years, it is still only beans!"

betty gregory
March 29, 2002 - 03:42 pm
Right, Mal, I just learned last year that Thoreau's name sounds just like the word "thorough."

It's difficult to try, for a minute, to un-know all our present culture's knowledge of calories, carbohydrates, diets, "vegetarian" facts, endangered species, rain forest destruction, old growth forests, protection of nature, the word "natural" on every food product, etc, etc. I imagine it did seem rather fussy and un-manly, as Stevenson wrote, for someone in Thoreau's time to say "no" to certain drinks/foods and to befriend wild animals instead of hunting them. Hey, those things are still laughed at by segments of the population. I have a funny memory of my (then) 13 year old son telling me that football players couldn't be vegetarians.

Betty

Jonathan
March 29, 2002 - 03:49 pm
Barbara, keep your hat on please.... Mal, you certainly do things most thoreau-ly. Thanks for all the remarkable links. They're all bookmarked. Writers on writers - always interesting.

Barbara St. Aubrey
March 29, 2002 - 03:56 pm
hohohaha is that a threat a warning - saying I don't have much good to say with my hat off - my head may get cold - hahaha I'm rolling on that one -

So this lay-about Thoreau - that did things the easy way and took a freebe whenever and where ever - who is uglier 'n sin and only put into words the thinking of his neighbors has become an American Literary Icon - you know he does sound an awful lot like Jesus. hehehe

Malryn (Mal)
March 29, 2002 - 04:52 pm
Oh, Barb!! Thoreau, who divorced himself from religion, would roll over in his grave if he knew you said that.

A literary icon? Only in some circles.

As far as I'm concerned Thoreau wrote only one valuable book, and that is Walden. He did write a pamphlet which is called Civil Disobedience which seems to have created a stir. I've forgotten what the original name was. Harold, please tell us.

Has anyone here read A Week on the Concord and Merrimack Rivers? Or Cape Cod? Or A Yankee in Canada? I thought not.

I've been trying to find A Yankee in Canada on the web, but doggone, it doesn't seem to be there. The other two are a lot of fun to read, by the way, especially if you're interested in New England in Thoreau's day.

Mal

Harold Arnold
March 29, 2002 - 05:18 pm
The Thoreau essay is in my annotated "Walden: under the simple title "Civil Disobedience.” I also have it in pamphlet format published by the Cato Institute (the Libertarian think-tank) as I remember it under the title "An Essay on Civil Disobedience"

The only Thoreau writings that I have read besides "Walden" and "Civil Disobedience" are the three accounts of his camping trips into the Maine woods during the 1840's and 50's. I really loved these stories (more so than "Walden")reading them so many times their paper-back bindings are now near shreads

betty gregory
March 29, 2002 - 06:15 pm
I liked The Maine Woods better than Walden, too, Harold. Thoreau was one of earliest preservation/conservation writers.

Betty

Malryn (Mal)
March 29, 2002 - 06:17 pm
Thoreau's Resistance to Civil Government was published in 1849. The name was later changed to Civil Disobedience. (I looked it up.) Seems to me the Civil Disobedience phrase came out of A Yankee in Canada, but I can't find the quote.

I liked reading A Week on the Concord and Merrimack Rivers and Cape Cod better than I did Walden. They're less phlosophical and easier to read, in my opinion.

Mal

Harold Arnold
March 29, 2002 - 07:47 pm
It seems my memory is not that great. The published title of the pamphlet I got from the Cato Institute is "On the Duty of Civil Disobedience." This is the Thoreau essay. Also much to my surprize I find it does not have the Cato name on it. It shows the publisher as the A. J. Muste Memorial Institute. I don't have the vagest idea who they are though I still maintain I purchased it from Cato.

Malryn (Mal)
March 29, 2002 - 08:00 pm
Harold, I found this:

"'Resistance to Civil Government' originated as a Concord Lyceum lecture delivered by Henry on January 26, 1848. It was first published in May of 1849, in Aesthetic Papers, a short-lived periodical that never managed a second issue. The modern title of 'Civil Disobedience' comes from 'Yankee in Canada, with Anti-Slavery and Reform Papers', an 1866 collection of Thoreau's work."
You know, I don't think I ever read The Maine Woods. Do you or Betty remember where in Maine it takes place? My paternal grandfather had a potato farm in Brooks, Maine, and my former husband's grandfather had a dairy farm in Unity, Maine. Do either of those names ring a bell as far as the book is concerned?

Mal

Nellie Vrolyk
March 29, 2002 - 08:13 pm
Barbara, I'll have a cup of tea, please, while I sit in a corner and read...both the book and this interesting conversation.

Barbara St. Aubrey
March 29, 2002 - 10:12 pm
A yes Nellie - hot Darjeeling, Assam or Ceylon - lemon or cream - one or two lumps - yes I agree Nellie this has been great - we haven't gotten into the book yet and already I have learned tons - Mel you have brought so much good stuff for us to read about - I love your alternative take on the author - bringing him down to sidewalk size - Harold I think we will be calling on you frequently to give us the benefit of your annotated edition and Betty with delicious colored posts - they are like a drop of spring - I keep thinking of the loss of your trees and feel so sad especially looking at some of these photos of the pond/lake - and Jonathan we never did hear what you did on that fatefull day - did you head home or stop over somewhere - Alf is it still winter in New York - and have you ever visited this area of Mass. since on the map it appears so close - just how long would it take to make the drive - Yili Lin we are looking forward to your voice - you always have a way of summing things up in a phrase that puts a new spin on things - and Ol Imp with all your travels have you ever been back east - I imagine California is sunny for Easter - ElizabethN - I need to get to know you - I've seen your posts here and there but this is the first book that I know of that we will both be discussing - looking forward to getting to know you and paltos a bit better - paltos from Western Canada by way of England - I visited Vancouver and Victoria years ago and I thought the mountains east of Vancouver were awesome - That ferry ride to Victoria was a shipping excursion as far as I was concerned - the Bucshe Gardens were spectacular.

Malryn (Mal)
March 29, 2002 - 10:33 pm
Can't help it, Barbara. I'm a New Englander at heart, and we don't tolerate much that's put on a pedestal, regardless who it is. I know for sure that Thoreau would not have liked that position or being romanticized.

Harold, I found The Maine Woods on the web. Thoreau takes the train from Boston to Bangor. One of my sisters lives on the finger of a bay of the Atlantic in a little town called Franklin, Maine. It's East of Bangor and past Ellsworth where Stephen King lives. One of her daughters, my niece, is a medical doctor in Bangor. My other two nieces live in Lubec farther north on the coast. Lubec's last sardine factory closed down recently, causing some distress to that little community.

Thoreau mentions Houlton. I had an aunt whose husband taught school in Houlton.

These places going toward Mt. Katahadin are a good deal farther north than the two towns I mentioned earlier.

My former husband and his father went fishing at Moosehead Lake up near Katahdin every summer years ago. This is bringing back some memories.

Mal

Jonathan
March 29, 2002 - 10:36 pm
Barbara, congratulations on proposing Walden for discussion. And thereby assuming leadership in what looks more and more like the making of a lively debate, almost, I would guess, as far as a possibility of losing some kind of innocence. With that in mind, I took alarm at your talk of removing your leadership hat. I mistook it for a cop-out, rather than the toss into the ring that you must have had in mind. I thought, By God, you got us into this, it's your moral duty to get us out of these darkening woods, into which our author, the tiresome moralist, is leading us. Mind you, sometimes, reading the book, I almost split my sides laughing, and it is then that a strange feeling comes over me that I'm far from home. Let me try again.

Hold on to your hat, Barbara.

Jonathan

Ol Imp
March 29, 2002 - 10:57 pm
Been to MA a couple of times --

I've been creeping down the road of life pushing a big barn - and I'm going to be plowed into the soil for compost.

The king of France didn't like the Huguenots - He wanted their bodies dragged through the streets and tossed in a public dump - Thoreau's ancestors got out to Jersey Island - then to Coburg on Lake Ontario - Interesting , intermarriage with Guillet - In my own genealogy there is an intermarriage with Guillet out of Ontario - My mother's side -

My point - this not being wanted and pushed on seems to be the history of a lot of my ancestors - not able to own land or marry or used as galley slaves - could this contribute to an attitude of feeling alone and apart from??

Today is my birthday - I want some "pretty toys" that will distract my attention from serious things.

Traude
March 30, 2002 - 12:28 am
Ol Imp -- sending belated but good wishes for your birthday.

Yours was an interesting post and introduced a new element into this New England-focused discussion : the fact that Thoreau's ancestors were Huguenots (French Calvinists).

Historically, that brings up the Huguenot Wars (1562-1629) ; the slaughter of Huguenots in Paris on August 23/24 1572 during the infamous St. Bartholomew's Night when they lost their leader, Admiral Coligny, all this occasioned by the the marriage of Henry of Bourbon Parma and Margarete of Valois, and the Edict of Nantes (1598) with which Henry IV guaranteed the Huguenotes religious freedom. In 1685, Louis XIV declared the edict null and void, and untold numbers of Huguenotes fled to other European countries and also to America !

I did not intend to lead us off into the wild blue yonder, but my passion for history got the better of me. Besides, it's interesting, isn't it, that there is more than just the New England heritage to our man ?

Barbara St. Aubrey
March 30, 2002 - 12:49 am
Oh ho so in his blood are the fires of individualism and freedom to express civil disobediance that the French hold so dear - no wonder that earlier speach had such an impact on him - hmmmm that was a great bit to share Traude - thanks.

Barbara St. Aubrey
March 30, 2002 - 01:03 am
OL Imp this link is just for you Happy Birthday!

Malryn (Mal)
March 30, 2002 - 05:32 am
Happy Birthday, Ol Imp. You gave me just the clue I've been looking for.

The Thoreau-Guillet connection

Malryn (Mal)
March 30, 2002 - 06:55 am
Here's another good link with a kind of historical time frame showing what was going on in history during Thoreau's life.

Thoreau and history

Malryn (Mal)
March 30, 2002 - 07:29 am
I've been trying to figure out how Thoreau's French heritage affected what he did in his life, since much of what I've said is based on my own background in New England, which was primarily English.

According to a genealogical study done by my cousin, Marjorie Heaney, the first Stubbs (my birth name) ancestor to come to America was Richard Stubbs, a Yorkshireman. In 1642 at the age of 23 he became a "planter" in Nantasket, Massachusetts on what is now called the "South Shore" of Boston. How and when the Stubbses moved north of Boston to the "North Shore" and Haverhill (Pronounce that Hay-vrull), my hometown, I'm not sure.

My mother's ancestors (named White) were early settlers in the Haverhill area. Haverhill was founded in 1640 and is situated on the New Hampshire state line, a long way from Concord in Thoreau's time. Jean Thoreau was the first Thoreau to come to this country by way of Boston Harbor in 1773.

Haverhill happens to be the birthplace of John Greenleaf Whittier, who was born in 1807 and died in 1892. Whittier, as you know, was an American poet, a Quaker and an Abolitionist. It's a known fact that Henry David Thoreau (1817-1862) helped slaves go North through the Underground Railway. In his adulthood, Whittier lived in Amesbury, Massachusetts which is nine miles northeast of Haverhill. I actually lived in Amesbury for a year when I moved back to Massachusetts from New York in 1976 after my marriage ended.

According to what I've read, Thoreau was very familiar with this part of northeastern Massachusetts. I am trying to find a connection between Thoreau and Whittier now while I try to figure out how Thoreau's French heritage affected his attitude toward New England. Of course, he was much influenced by Emerson, whose background was English, as far as I know.

Mal

Deems
March 30, 2002 - 01:36 pm
Hello, all. I've been reading and not commenting because it's been a while since I've read Walden.

However, I was born in Bangor and lived there while attending high school. I went to Camp Natarswi (girl scouts) at the foot of Mount Katahdin. We took a canoe trip on Chesuncook, which is a huge lake. We were gone several days, packing all our food with us and making camp near the shores of the lake. It was VERY wild and untouched and absolutely beautiful. I hope that it still is.

As I remember, it took more than an hour to drive from Bangor to camp, but I may be misremembering. Another world--and most beautiful.

I'm really enjoying your discussion.

~Maryal

Malryn (Mal)
March 30, 2002 - 02:33 pm
Thank you, Traude. The pieces of the puzzle are beginning to fit together.

"The Huguenots were highly iconoclastic; they tore down statues of the Virgin Mary, broke stained glass windows representing Christ or the Virgin, and they vandalized reliquaries. They believed God's Holy Word ('You shall not make for yourselves an idol...'(Exodus 20:4)) to be their justification smashing the 'idols' of the Church.



"Political ideas were inextricably bound to religious ones, and many actions by the Huguenots stemed from a dualistic agenda. Most Huguenots were as eager to overthrow the political regime as they were to restructure the Holy Church, and they used Scripture as the basis for both."
The Calvinists were Protestants who protested the Catholic Church and had a rigorous, strict, alternative religious agenda. How does this fit into Puritanical, Calvinistic New England? I'd say it fit in very well.

Seems to me Henry David Thoreau had exactly the right background for being a citizen of New England and what he lived and wrote later.

Mal

Barbara St. Aubrey
March 30, 2002 - 03:17 pm
Whew that link Melryn is great for information but does terrible things to my computer - it freezes me out each time - I got the history link which was wonderful but could not get through to the the Thoreau-Guillet connection link -

The connections you are making seem so right-on but with more scholarship than my own thoughts - I think that a person is living within an environment that social, political, environmental forces allow a certain behavior; and they may be influenced by other's thoughts in writings or music or film or conversation but, a person will only latch on to an aspect of other's thoughts or influence if it hits a chord within. That 'chord within' I think is established and learned as a very young child - the families outlook on life sets the programming toward identifying certain values.

And so. your putting it together how independent the Huguenots are when it comes to personal liberty and the freedom to choose what they deem of value seems basic to Thoreau's propensity toward freeing himself from needs that can only be satisfied by the economic results of labor directed by another.

Malryn (Mal)
March 30, 2002 - 03:43 pm
Barbara, I had trouble on Netscape with the link you mentioned, but it worked fine with MSIE.

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
March 30, 2002 - 03:47 pm
I may possibly be strongly influenced by reading the first volume of Will and Ariel Durant's The Story of Civilization, but I believe our heritage influences us nearly as much as the things you mentioned, if only through traditions and hearsay passed down through generations.

Mal

YiLi Lin
March 31, 2002 - 10:36 am
It seems to me that Thoreau, like many other philosophers and writers, has been awarded a role that is not necessarily what is intended. IMO rarely do philosphers and writers wake up one morning with flashes of new truths that they immediately set out to communicate to the world. Typically they are observers of a particular condition and then they use their skill and/or niche in life to communicate what 'they' see and for some they take the communication a step further and attempt to influence change.

Change is history, change is life. Thoreau like others before and after him did not create the concept of Walden, vegetarianism, civil disobedience. He used a mechanism of communication- writing and adopting a temporary lifestyle- to communicate. If we look at history and the present, we see many influential (they key word here) people do this- whether they are radical leaders, politicians, religious fervants- the world of the past and the present abounds with those who even like Thoreau adopt temporary lifestyles to make a point.

It seems what we do when a particular philosopher or writer is part of the school learned historical experience- is infuse that person with qualities that we need them to have. Then when they fall short or times change we criticize. Yet for moments in time, each serve a purpose- sometimes that purpose is simply to become the voice for a silent group- like and actor on the stage, the speaker does not necessarily have to truly live what he/she is speaking to be heard- oh its nice- but not necessary. If thoreau lived in a mansion, gambled, ate meat, drank to excess and only went to the woods on weekends, but from that weekend experience could communicate a view about solitude, environmentalism etc. that communication still remains an important contribution to an ever widening interpretation of the world.

think even of the internet- shoot i remember when the internet for me was a program called prodigy and the most you could do would be talk to someone on a list serve and later get into a university library system. now we can click on links to the most amazing information- communication- who set it up, who has arranged it, who judges it makes no real difference- the links communicate and i the seeker define its qualities. so it is with this spirit that i look forward to our continued discussion, not just about Thoroeau the man, but the information (not wholly owned by T) he communicated.

YiLi Lin
March 31, 2002 - 10:41 am
- something perhaps a diversion- a quote from somewhere on the Brook Farm page- "writiers with dissatisfaction with aspects of contemporary society..." I was going to suggest we juxtapose a bit some modern writers dissatisfied with aspects of contemporary society" to balance out the oneness of a Thoreau, but then I realized just about every modern writer I can think of, whether engaged in genre fiction- a la Robert Parker- to tomb like commentaries- is obviously dissatisfied with aspects of contemporary society.

Yes! and that makes for inquiry and for me, inquiry leads to ethical and moral development.

Barbara St. Aubrey
March 31, 2002 - 02:19 pm
Wow Yili Lin and now I must look further at the links above with new eyes because of your posts - Wow!

Malryn (Mal)
March 31, 2002 - 03:30 pm
"Thoreau did not speak of Brook Farm, and Emerson wished the Brook Farmers well but declined membership."
Transcendentalism and Reform

Ol Imp
March 31, 2002 - 03:35 pm
Thank you for Birthday greeting - I definitely need help blowing out the many candles - dreams; wishes and cake - Friends came over and we shared wine and cake -

"Inquiry" has led to my confusion - Hey! I want things simple, simple,simple.

Malryn (Mal)
March 31, 2002 - 03:35 pm
The link below takes you to a site which has a bit more about Thoreau and Emerson's attitude toward Fourierism. It also has a very good graphic of the cover of Walden in 1854.

Walden cover

Malryn (Mal)
March 31, 2002 - 03:37 pm
Ol Imp:

So did Thoreau.

Mal

Barbara St. Aubrey
March 31, 2002 - 05:30 pm
Found this today in one of my books of poetry - another look at Thoreau's feelings --
Indeed indeed, I cannot tell

Indeed indeed, I cannot tell,
Though I ponder on it well,
Which were easier to state,
All my love or all my hate.
Surely, surely, thou wilt trust me
When I say thou dost disgust me.
O, I hate thee with a hate
That would fain annihilate;
Yet sometimes against my will,
My dear friend, I love thee still.
It were treason to our love,
And a sin to God above,
One iota to abate
Of a pure impartial hate.

Henry David Thoreau

Jonathan
March 31, 2002 - 10:02 pm
I think Thoreau had Emerson in mind, when he wrote those lines. Try as he might, the complexities of life just wouldn't go away.

Jonathan
March 31, 2002 - 10:23 pm
YiLi Lin, you make a number of interesting points in #115. I would like to take exception to one of them...when you say that Thoreau adopted a temporary lifestyle 'to make a point'.

I think Thoreau adopted a lifestyle to suit his circumstances and then went to a lot of trouble to make sense of it (for his own peace of mind, naturally), and to justify it to others.

Maybe we can raise it again, once we begin the discussion.

Jonathan

YiLi Lin
April 1, 2002 - 01:15 pm
I agree with your disagreement. On rereading I realize I was suggesting that I knew or had a reference to a fact of T's intention- that is not what I was trying to get across. I was more thinking that 'even if' T and others perform on a stage so to speak, to get others to think or act, that it is sometimes an effective way to enact change.

Barbara St. Aubrey
April 1, 2002 - 01:35 pm
I wonder even one step farther - if Thoreau even thought of himself as acting on a stage but rather, what he put on paper resonnated with many that have been engaged in a movement that his thoughts helped give them some direction along with the other values and beliefs they read or held.

Malryn (Mal)
April 1, 2002 - 05:08 pm
Please don't forget that Thoreau and Emerson advocated individualism. Though associated with Transcendentalism, each wrote and acted individually on his own.

Thoreau spoke for himself and himself alone. It bugs me a little when I see people trying to equate what he wrote with some movement or other because Thoreau was part of none of them. Not religious, not political, Thoreau stood alone on his own two feet and spoke and wrote about his own principles whether anyone else listened or not, and that's how he should be read and understood.

Thoreau was a no frills kind of man. If all kinds of causes and social themes are used to embellish what he said, the essence of what Thoreau was and advocated is lost.

Simplify, simplify. That was Thoreau's message. I know when I read his work I keep that in mind.

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
April 1, 2002 - 06:03 pm

"What should we think of the shepherd's life if his flocks
always wandered to higher pastures than his thoughts?"


Henry David Thoreau
Walden: Where I Lived and What I Lived For

Jonathan
April 1, 2002 - 10:24 pm
Whatever Thoreau's intentions were at, with, or in Walden, in the woods, at the pond, or with the book, could become a very interesting and vital part of the discussion. Thanks for bringing it up the way you did, YiLi Lin. To be honest, I'm far from having made up my mind about his intentions. The grand experiment, obviously, meant everything to him. And he made the most of it when he succeeded in writing about it in a way that has a reader happily sharing the experience.

I think we should remember that he was a young man, trying to find himself. He may seem critical and judgemental about the world he's leaving behind, but that's more to reassure himself, don't you think, than to change the world. Walden is a splendid 'retreat' for the author as well as the reader.

I've met a few of these guys, while tramping the hills and woods in the north eastern USA. So have the rest of you, I'm sure. Loners, but invariably congenial types. Camped out in a wilderness lean-to, or natural shelter. Lonely vigils on mountain tops, imbibing nature. One meets them off the beaten path in the wilderness, crouched over their little pot of boiling rice, adding the tiniest twigs to their little fires, chanting their mantras until one comes into view. A few admitted finding inspiration, and keeping journals. One, I remember, carried his Walden with him. Keeping it simple, of course, but the simplicity deeply felt, was always the impression I got.

Jonathan

Barbara St. Aubrey
April 2, 2002 - 02:20 pm
your post Jonathan reminded me how simplicity was in vague there for awhile - all the books on simplifying our lives that popped up after 2000 - now I see more folks simply living close to home and family but not necessarily simply reducing our consumption of goods. I believe they said Wal-Mart is now the largest company in the U.S.

I wonder if we confuse simple with harmony and the many tensions of so many, often new influences, in our everyday lives lead us to want calm harmony that we assume we will feel living the simple life.

Of course living simply gives us less need to earn or more time to do other than earn. But I wonder if the time we think we will have by not earning is replaced with other activities required to maintain ourselves that we had either hired to assist us or we bought goods that assisted us. I think what Thoreau was trying to accomplish was accumulating more time to do other then earn to maintain himself.

Nellie Vrolyk
April 2, 2002 - 04:24 pm
I'm reading along with all your posts and going along in Walden at a good pace.

Ol Imp
April 2, 2002 - 05:07 pm
115 YiliLin _ awarded a role not intended - "infuse that person with qualities that we need them to have" - or did T stand alone - Do we perform on a stage (of life) ?? is it all an act? does the flock that wandered to the higher pasture care?? - are we doing a monologue as a lonely vigil imbibing in nature?? -- calm harmony - sounds comfortable-

Wal Mart - now #1 - fought the union and won - be an Associate - provide for yourself on a minimum wage - scary. - all the money to the coffers of one.

Malryn (Mal)
April 2, 2002 - 06:01 pm
From Walden -- Where I Lived and What I Lived For

"Simplicity, simplicity, simplicity! I say, let your affairs be as two or three, and not a hundred or a thousand; instead of a million count half a dozen, and keep your accounts on your thumb nail. In the midst of this chopping sea of civilized life, such are the clouds and storms and quick-sands and thousand-and-one items to be allowed for, that a man has to live, if he would not founder and go to the bottom and not make his port at all, by dead reckoning, and he must be a great calculator indeed who succeeds. Simplify, simplify."





"Why should we live with such hurry and waste of life? We are determined to be starved before we are hungry. Men say that a stitch in time saves nine, and so they take a thousand stitches today to save nine tomorrow."

Malryn (Mal)
April 2, 2002 - 06:23 pm
It's easy to live simply when you don't have much. I live in an open 600 square foot space, an addition to my daughter's house, and don't have much money. I don't walk all that much any more, but these shoes I wear have a lot of mileage on them. They are six years old. I haven't bought clothes for two years and five months. My car is 16 years old. I don't go out to lunch or dinner or to movies, concerts or plays.

Twenty-six years ago I lived in a ten room house on four acres of land. After I left it I rented small apartments or a room until I inherited a little money and bought a trailer in Florida. Do I miss any of that? Do I feel deprived? Once in a while I miss the trailer because it was a mile from the ocean, and I love being near the ocean. Otherwise, I miss nothing and often wonder why I thought I needed so much before. Life's a lot easier this way.

I live a full and satisfying life; work hard on my computer. If I didn't have a computer, I'd find something else to do, just as I always have. As far as I'm concerned, Thoreau knew what life like this can be, and that's part of the reason he went to Walden Pond.

Mal

Barbara St. Aubrey
April 2, 2002 - 06:56 pm
Melryn - curious - have you found when you simplified your life you feel a sense of harmony with life and a calmness?

Malryn (Mal)
April 2, 2002 - 07:29 pm
I certainly don't worry as much as I once did, nor do I feel as competitive, or as if I have to push myself to be like or do what everyone else does. Life is slower, easier, more comfortable because I set the pace and don't have to impress anyone else but me. Once in a while I tense up when I have three electronic magazines to get on the web at the same time, but that doesn't happen very often, since I'm my own boss and set my own goals and deadlines. Hey, everybody should be this lucky!

Mal

Harold Arnold
April 3, 2002 - 09:17 am
Jonathan’s description of today’s Thoreau reincarnations in his message #129 brought to mind my own back to nature decade 1965 – 1975 except that instead of the forest with a lean to I would be in my boat down the La Guna Madre below Kingsville on the isolated Padre Island shore. There was one difference in that at suppertime I would come up with something considerably better than a kettle of boiled rice.

And Barbara the modern definitive publication on simple living was the 1981 book out of one of the major think tanks. Its title was “Voluntary Simplicity” and its author was Dwane Elgin. It is still in the B & N catalog as a paperback.

Barbara St. Aubrey
April 3, 2002 - 02:10 pm
Wow way back in 1981 - well the concept certainly sparked a plethora of 'simplify your life' books with lists and lists of ways to simplify everything from your closet shelves to the business friends you keep.

Malryn (Mal)
April 3, 2002 - 03:00 pm
Click the link below to read about Thoreau and Hindu literature.

Thoreau and the Bhagavad Gita

Malryn (Mal)
April 3, 2002 - 03:10 pm

"I have read in a Hindoo book, that 'there was a king's son, who, being expelled in infancy from his native city, was brought up by a forester, and, growing up to maturity in that state, imagined himself to belong to the barbarous race with which he lived. One of his father's ministers having discovered him, revealed to him what he was, and the misconception of his character was removed, and he knew himself to be a prince. So soul,' continues the Hindoo philosopher, 'from the circumstances in which it is placed, mistakes its own character, until the truth is revealed to it by some holy teacher, and then it knows itself to be Brahme.' I perceive that we inhabitants of New England live this mean life that we do because our vision does not penetrate the surface of things. We think that that is which appears to be."

Henry David Thoreau -- Walden

Barbara St. Aubrey
April 3, 2002 - 04:00 pm
Mal another gold mine - I love this from the introduction of the East meets West page of links.
For nearly three decades, from 1836 to 1866 or the end of the Civil War in America, the United States witnessed the flowering of an intellectual movement the like of which had not been seen before. The movement flourished in Concord, Massachusetts and was known-though it had no formal organization- as the Transcendental Club or Circle. Its members were Ralph Waldo Emerson and Henry David Thoreau, the Unitarian Minister James Freeman Clark, the teacher and philosopher Amos Bronson Alcott, Margaret Fuller, and some clergymen. Their collective achievement in quality of style and in depth of philosophical insight has yet to be surpassed in American literature. And their major influence, without exception, were the Vedic literatures of India.

Article continued

Jonathan
April 3, 2002 - 10:02 pm
Mal, that's an interesting quote from the book in which Thoreau, in turn, quotes from a 'Hindoo book'. #140 How can one help thinking of the 'returning home' idea in the prodigal son parable in Judaic scripture? Is this Thoreau's way of introducing the reader to the idea of the transcendental, and later more ideas about the Transcendental Club mentioned in Barbara's quote in the following post. Strange, isn't it, that the movement never really caught on in New England. At least that's my impression.

YiLi Lin
April 4, 2002 - 03:23 pm
Sorry I needed to catch up and my comments might take us back.

Mal I think with T and others, even if he wished to simply live a life for himself, that fact that his life became public provided the forum for people to choose to model him, or at least their interpretation of him. So he might not have intended to start or to be a movement, which I think might be a similar hypothesis for others we have awarded movement leadership status.

However, I am not so sure his sole intention was to simply be for himself. I caught a thought with your next post where you quote T's writing and then I clicked and clicked and realized that the bulk of this writing is written TO an audience. Walden is not an inner directed stream of consciousness- he has imagined an audience- uses the plural 'you' and sets out a list of shoulds- not in a bad way, but reminds me of a teacher.

JOhnathen wonder further though it is definitely possible his criticism is a form of self-reassurance and I see how individuals play that out- probably a mechanism that helps keep of mentally healthy- a way to validate ourselves- but I would also like to believe that he was in addition an astute observer of the social and economic conditions of his era, that his criticism carries merit.

I think I am reading not only from a perspective of what were T's intentions (to me most writing is designed to be persuasive) but I am also thinking about myself and what prompts me to seek spiritual and physical Waldens, and what would I criticize about the nature of things today. Walden is another tool for the journey.

Malryn (Mal)
April 4, 2002 - 04:33 pm

Interesting points, YiLi. I've never known a writer who did not want his or her work to be published. Only the dumbest (or the smartest, depending on how you look at it) write for an audience. Romance novelists, and I'll stick my neck out here and say Stephen King until only recently, write for the audience which will buy their books. Serious nonfiction writers do not write with such an audience in mind, unless, of course, they are established and already have a reliable, good-paying publisher.

In Thoreau and Emerson's day, there were not many publishers who'd bite at what they wrote, except, of course, the Dial Magazine. If you've read the letters between them on the site of which I posted a link, you'll see that there is much talk between them about the Dial.

Transcendentalism did not sell, and even in those days publishers were looking for a winner. As far as I know, New Englanders who had heard of Transcendentalism then, and even people in far away New York, thought Transcendentalists were eccentric kooks, much as many people in the 60's and 70's thought Hippies were kooks. Trancendentalists threatened the status quo, and New Englanders of that time were imbued with the idea of stability and the status quo. I'll go so far as to say that they hated change much, much more than I do as I drive what once was a lovely country road to the supermarket where I shop and see strip malls and convenience stores being built.

We have to remember that Unitarianism was considered very far out in those days, just as it is considered today by some, and Transcendentalism probably seemed even more threatening than that.

Seriously, did any of you think much about Thoreau until the Hippies picked up on him, and the nation began to equate Walden with the Hippie movement? Where I was at that time, first in Indianapolis and then fifty miles north of New York City in Westchester County, behavior of the Hippies was not much liked by 90 percent of the people I knew, and Thoreau was considered as weird and suspect as they were. I have often smiled to think what Thoreau's reaction to the Hippie's latching onto what he said might be. Seems to me he'd have been distressed at their misinterpretation of what he wrote.

Thoreau was a scholar, as were many in his very small, elite group in Concord. He tried to impress and emulate Emerson. If you've ever been in Emerson's house in Concord and seen the little chair in Emerson's front hall where Thoreau sat waiting, often for hours, to be granted an audience by the great man, perhaps you have an idea about how Emerson thought about him. Read Emerson's essay about Thoreau, and you'll see.

What Thoreau wrote does not make me think about "spiritual and physical Waldens and what I would criticize about the nature of things today." No doubt it is my background that makes me different. My New England family and everyone I knew believed in hard, industrious work, eating the vegetables you yourself planted, studying so you'd improve yourself and the place where you lived, thrift, frugality, individuality, self-sufficiency and self-restraint. Maybe that's why, when I became a teenager, like many of my peers, the only thing I could think of was to get as far away from that restrictive, "old-fashioned" place as I could.

Mal

BaBi
April 5, 2002 - 08:57 am
Walden--Walder--Walden....drat! Where did I put that book?!!..Babi

Barbara St. Aubrey
April 5, 2002 - 01:52 pm
Babi - hehehe you do not even have to look for the book - we have it linked to three seperate on-line renditions - just read from the screen or find some old paper and use the backside and copy it out chapter by chapter.

So glad you are going to share with us -

Ol Imp
April 5, 2002 - 05:57 pm
Had to order another copy of Walden from B&N - I had my copy conveniently stashed in a box ,in the garage, somewhere - (Hey today ,I programmed a remote for the garage door that I ordered over the internet - can you believe it - the door opens now - I did it with my hands)

I think I was introduced to Walden and Thoreau by a Prof who focused on Hawthorne and Melville in about 1956 - helped turn my life upside down - sort of a reality check..

BaBi
April 6, 2002 - 10:17 am
I hope you will pardon me if I don't try to go back and read 145 posts, and therefore may repeat thoughts someone else has already expressed. I read the most recent posts and was impressed by the scholarly quality of them.

I read some of the essays on Transcendentalism, and my first thought was that is directly oppositional to those who insist that the "physico-chemical performance" of living beings entirely explains the processes of life. On this subject, I definitely lean closer to the Transcendental view.

The references to the "inner voice" bring to mind Shakespeare's "to thine own self be true", and the "inner light" of the Quaker faith. More importantly, they find an inner response that says: "Of course!".

Mr. E. loses me, however, when he writes that to "dissipate" evil one need only "allow" good. I look at the hatred, bitterness and violence on all sides today, and know he got that one wrong! Does anyone here have any idea how one goes about "allowing" good in these situations? ....Babi

Barbara St. Aubrey
April 6, 2002 - 03:28 pm
Ol Imp another opportunity for 'reality check'?? Hope so, sounds like Walden has been a part of your life.

Wow Babi you do ask the hard ones don't you - I think we all have our philosophy or maybe even theology that helps explain this crazy world - Raised Catholic my discouragement was with the organized Roman Church and since I was educated by the Benedictines and the Carmelites there is much there that corresponds to Daoism which is where I have put most of my study and take my beliefs within the past 15 years or so - I tell you all this to preface that my opinion is coming from that background. And all I can share here is opinion.

To "allow good" says to me that like the Daoist priests/shamans, whatever you want to call them - they develop such a trust and belief in a sort of higher power, is the best way to explain it - there trust is so great that if someone is falling off a narrow path high on the mountain side they will jump over the side expecting to save the person. Some outcropping of rock will stop their fall as they hold on unafraid to the falling frightened victim.

In reading St. John of the Cross, a seventeenth century Carmelite (Dark Night of the Soul) there is a description of Hope. Hope that is accompanied by a picture of what you want or expect to attain is only acting on memory and therefore, real Faith is going through life as if we are surrounded by the darkest part of the night, possibly not even hearing or having a feeling that God is around or cares but realizing the Biblical saying "Hope in the unseen."

And then to the more metaphysical beliefs that I have learned and adapted - we can only change ourselves - we can try to change another by overpowering them but change rally is as a result of learning something new that you can compare to something you already know, try out the new behavior, determine its effectiveness and then if it fits continue to tweak it till it works.

If one person is open for good than like a pebble thrown in the chaos of humanity there is a ripple affect. BUT this is where the understanding of hope or the Daoist beliefs comes in - the affect will not be on our time schedule nor will it look as we think it ought to look - That if our purpose for being is to become closer to what we as Christians believe, Love - we must experience what ever comes that, if we look closer we have attracted (actually as part of our growth) because we had no mindset or life experiences to "allow" other thoughts that would offer us other paths.

This could sound like self-blame for whatever pain we experience but all it is really saying is, if we never had an arm than we not only do not know how to use one but our solutions for our life does not include the use of an arm -

My take on Transcendentalism is that they were approaching the concept that life is an electric current that runs through our nerves to our brain. That this electric current is in all the universe and all of time. So that each of us is a collection of the messages transmitted on this electric current and to allow certain thoughts is to open the current to those thoughts - they do not block other thoughts but simply add more of the allowed thoughts to travel the electric current. Therefore "allow good" but do not expect it to rule or be visible in our time or as we understand or agree is good.

OK FOLKS - when it comes to beliefs and understandings, we may each differ in our opinion - there is no right or wrong here - only our own indivudual transformation of data, that we reflect upon and apply to what is relevant in light of each of our everyday worlds and than integrated into our thoughts and feelings.

And so please - as we share - be open to others and realize that your understanding or, transfering of data is personal to you and may not necessarily be shared by others -

Let's have discourse here during this discussion and not shoot for a common, albeit technically correct agreement that could block each of our deepening understand of this material, which with personal freedom to explore and reflect could ripen into personal wisdom.

We will be sharing our inner beliefs and feelings while reading Walden, therefore, with thought as to how we respond to each other we can provide a safe enviornment that will enable our sharing.


At that I feel like saying Amen - not in the form of 'that is that because I said so' but as in the end of my sincere prayer.

Malryn (Mal)
April 6, 2002 - 04:03 pm
There are those thinkers and scholars who think Ralph Waldo Emerson explained Transcendentalism best in his essay, Nature. The quote below is from that essay. You can read the entire essay by clicking this link. NATURE.

"Who looks upon a river in a meditative hour, and is not reminded of the flux of all things? Throw a stone into the stream, and the circles that propagate themselves are the beautiful type of all influence. Man is conscious of a universal soul within or behind his individual life, wherein, as in a firmament, the natures of Justice, Truth, Love, Freedom, arise and shine. This universal soul, he calls Reason: it is not mine, or thine, or his, but we are its; we are its property and men. And the blue sky in which the private earth is buried, the sky with its eternal calm, and full of everlasting orbs, is the type of Reason. That which, intellectually considered, we call Reason, considered in relation to nature, we call Spirit. Spirit is the Creator. Spirit hath life in itself. And man in all ages and countries, embodies it in his language, as the FATHER."

Ol Imp
April 6, 2002 - 06:40 pm
My empirical self protrudes and must touch and see - "Hope & faith" "trust & belief" doesn't hack it for me - "Allowing good" upsets me - tried to straighten this out in 1956 without success - The concept that good will come bothers me - I want good now - Historically the good was manipulated by the Greeks - I guess, I am looking for some consistency - Skewing and "tweeking" has bugged me. I do not accept the "flux of things" - I feel somewhere in the scheme of things there should be care for our fellow man -

Barbara St. Aubrey
April 6, 2002 - 09:16 pm
O Hear you Ol Imp - the cry of our anguish - but should does not make it so does it - who and how will make the good? - and with each instant of what we prefer to call the opposit of good being evil - it always stretches the imagination that such a new and more hidious view of evil can imerge.

Jonathan
April 6, 2002 - 10:11 pm
Barbara, I like the spirit of your post, #149. That sets a fine tone for the upcoming discussion. My Grandmother, may she rest in peace, was fond of saying: 'I accept anyone I can pray with as being of the same spirit as I.' In that spirit I'll say Amen! to your prayer.

Who or what is a Daoist? My spiritual roots go back all the way to the Waldenses. Quite hoary. So I'm eager to meet my modern co-religionist, if such he be.

Old Imp, if it is good that you seek, and now, you're sure to find it here at Walden. And I think Thoreau finds something like that, without getting too transcendental. Previous to Walden he lived with Emerson for several years I believe. Perhaps Emerson was coming on too strong, and Thoreau wanted to get away from the transcendental, away somewhere to get his feet back on the ground. Like you?

Mal, thanks for the quote. What do you think your feelings will be, when the time comes to peer into the deep waters of Walden?

Jonathan

Malryn (Mal)
April 6, 2002 - 10:27 pm
Jonathan:

To answer your question: the deep waters of Walden aren't all that deep, as far as I know. Thoreau won't give me any answers because I'm not looking for any. I'm content with the philosophy I have and have had for many, many years. It will be interesting to see the interpretations and reactions of others, though.

Mal

Barbara St. Aubrey
April 7, 2002 - 01:06 am
Mel the Emerson quote was wonderful to read. Loved that first line, "and is not reminded of the flux of all things."

Jonathan a Daoist follows the Tao which is like saying a Christian follows Jesus Christ. Some use the two words interchangably Dao and Tao - The Tao is difficult to translate but the best that has been used is to say, "The Way" as in the path, but it is more universal than simply a worldly path.

Tao is a Philosophy that includes: a Change Hypothesis; The Rejection of Egoism; Opposites a Paradox of Terms; Distinctions and Desires the Inconstancy of Language; Cultivating the Heart-mind; Wu Wie (acting with little effort by following the flow of nature. e.g. cutting meat with the muscle) Introduction to Daoism

Jonathan
April 7, 2002 - 02:45 pm
Mal, I was under the impression that some locals thouht Walden to be bottomless. And Thoreau found it surprising that no one had gone to the trouble of measuring it. And furthermore, Thoreau is a wonderful challenge for people contented with their philosophy. Come over to the deep end...

Barbara, this is wonderful stuff. I'm well into the Introduction to Daoism, and already I get the impression that it goes well beyond Transcendentalism in its philosophical and psychological ramifications. Although at this point in time I'm going to ask you to allow me to reconsider that 'amen' of an earlier post, I'll look forward to sharing more of this alternative 'belief system'. What the hell, with acknowledging my forebears as Waldensians, it must be obvious that the family track record is just a long history of heretical tendencies. I'm open to new ideas.

Jonathan

Malryn (Mal)
April 7, 2002 - 02:55 pm
Jonathan:

I wasn't talking about the pond.

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
April 7, 2002 - 03:23 pm
Isn't Daoism a religion? Seems to me I remember that from studying Comparative Religions in a class awhile back. If it is considered one, there's no way to compare it to Transcendentalism, is there? Transcendentalism is not a religion.

Mal

Jonathan
April 7, 2002 - 03:58 pm
Mal, that's an interesting question. When does a system of insights, perceptions, understanding, a sense of reality, turn into a religion? Does Transcendentalism come, always, for everyone, without religious feelings?

Jonathan

Malryn (Mal)
April 7, 2002 - 04:11 pm

Jonathan, you ask, "When does a system of insights, perceptions, understanding, a sense of reality, turn into a religion?" In my opinion, such a system becomes a religion when it is focused on God. Transcendentalism was focused on Nature, not God.

You phrased your last question in the present tense. Frankly, I doubt if there are very many Transcendentalists around today. I'll check around and see if I can find out.

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
April 7, 2002 - 04:46 pm
I found some interesting information about Transcendentalism at THIS SITE. These are all separate quotes, not in sequence in the article.

"The emergence of the Transcendentalists as an identifiable movement took place during the late 1820s and 1830s, but the roots of their religious philosophy extended much farther back into American religious history. Transcendentalism and evangelical Protestantism followed separate evolutionary branches from American Puritanism, taking as their common ancestor the Calvinism of the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries. "



"Transcendentalism cannot be properly understood outside the context of Unitarianism, the dominant religion in Boston during the early nineteenth century. "



" Unitarians placed a premium on stability, harmony, rational thought, progressive morality, classical learning, and other hallmarks of Enlightenment Christianity. Instead of the dogma of Calvinism intended to compel obedience, the Unitarians offered a philosophy stressing the importance of voluntary ethical conduct and the ability of the intellect to discern what constituted ethical conduct.

"Theirs was a "natural theology" in which the individual could, through empirical investigation or the exercise of reason, discover the ordered and benevolent nature of the universe and of God's laws. Divine "revelation," which took its highest form in the Bible, was an external event or process that would confirm the findings of reason. discovering new truths."

"It would be misleading, however, to say that Transcendentalism entailed a rejection of Unitarianism; rather, it evolved almost as an organic consequence of its parent religion. By opening the door wide to the exercise of the intellect and free conscience, and encouraging the individual in his quest for divine meaning, Unitarians had unwittingly sowed the seeds of the Transcendentalist ‘revolt.’ "

"For the Transcendentalists, then, the critical realization, or conviction, was that finding God depended on neither orthodox creedalism nor the Unitarians' sensible exercise of virtue, but on one's inner striving toward spiritual communion with the divine spirit. From this wellspring of belief would flow all the rest of their religious philosophy."



"Transcendentalism was not a purely native movement, however. The Transcendentalists received inspiration from overseas in the form of English and German romanticism, particularly the literature of Coleridge, Wordsworth and Goethe, and in the post-Kantian idealism of Thomas Carlyle and Victor Cousin. Under the influence of these writers (which was not a determinative influence, but rather an introduction to the cutting edge of Continental philosophy), the Transcendentalists developed their ideas of human "Reason," or what we today would call intuition. For the Transcendentalists, as for the Romantics, subjective intuition was at least as reliable a source of truth as empirical investigation, which underlay both deism and the natural theology of the Unitarians."

"The Transcendentalists had stood at the vanguard of the "new consciousness" Emerson recalled so fondly, and it is for their intellectual and moral fervor that we remember them now as much as for their religious philosophy; the light of Transcendentalism today burns strongest on the page and in the classroom, rather than from the pulpit."

Barbara St. Aubrey
April 7, 2002 - 05:55 pm
Hmmmm great stuff - back to is Daoism a religion - well if we are defining religion as believing in a monolythic Godhead - then no Daoism is about the Tao and nature is used to explain most principles - the five elements being water, wood, fire, earth and metal. But since there is devotion but no iconery it could also be considered a Religion just as Shintoism is based in nature but also has devotion and the iconery is in the form of temples.

I think I am remembering reading that Transcendentalism was also active in Britian - weren't Coolridge and Wordworth transcendentalists.

Jonathon my prayer was more for respect and sharing views without insisting that any one view is the correct view. We all come from different experiences and reading is a creative act whereby we take the authors thoughts and run them through our own personal screen so that we each come away with a different personal understanding - it is that personal understanding that I hope we are all about as we read Walden rather than a collective agreement.

So please discuss and delve and find out more and more about how we differently think but please, respectfully so that we don't have folks afraid of posting here for fear they are going to be challanged or attacked.

So far this has been a great discussion but recently I had been part of a group where someone's opinion was so strong that the person wanted everyone to look at the issues from that posters perspective. Oh my and the lines were drawn. And so I am simply setting up some parameters for us that we could assume do not have to be mentioned but hay, better safe than sorry.

Ol Imp
April 7, 2002 - 06:32 pm
Hmmm! - As Unitarian during the 70's I pushed the limits of morality and ethics -I had no stability or harmony - my intellect was out of order -

My heart is not pure - my belly is full - I have no ambition - my bones are strong - so my bones, belly and ambition are on target.

My personal understanding is like being on a greased slope in a dense fog .

Malryn (Mal)
April 8, 2002 - 07:13 am

What are you worried about, Barbara? Have I been overdoing it with comments about New England and Transcendentalism? Sharing information and a point-of-view is not doing missionary work, in my opinion, though I suppose it might seem that way to others. We each have our own opinions, and I have respect for them all. To be on the safe side, I'll refrain from now on.

Ol Imp, Unitarianism has changed a whole lot since the days of Emerson and Thoreau. It didn't do me much good in the 70's, either, a turbulent time I'm glad I don't have to go through again, and one in which I left that group and went out on my own. That's what I'm about to do right now.

Mal

Jonathan
April 8, 2002 - 10:37 am
Mal, for your information, I thought your post with all the quotes on Transcendentalism, #161, was just the perfect answer to my invitation to you to come over to the deep end of Walden Pond. Touché! You have a better sense of its depth than I do. On the other hand, you'll just have to be patient with us Non-New Englanders until we get the hang of this strange NE way of looking at Nature.

And then there is the nature of the book, which hardly makes for serious disputation. If we're all careful to observe local custon and follow that old advice, 'when in Rome do as the Romans', let's keep in mind that we are all in Concord. Or just a mile away.

Be that as it may. At the moment I'm considering Ol Imp's calamitous situation 'on a greased slope in a dense fog'. And, Hmmm!, how DOES an ex-Unitarian reenter the real world? Diversification?

Jonathan

Barbara St. Aubrey
April 8, 2002 - 12:01 pm
Oh Mel you have done us so well - no, my worry is as a result of other experiences I have had and this book to me is going to touch us in a different way than a novel - and so I want to set up some boundries not just for the few of us that have been regularly posting in the pre-discussion but for any others that may join us when we start the book next week. Mel your links and posts have been a great addition. As Jonathan shared, those of us not from New England get a picture that we would not have by hearing how a New Englander looks at life and nature.

YiLi Lin
April 8, 2002 - 02:56 pm
Taoism would not by eastern definition be considered a religion. I consulted a learned Master after reading the posts and it was explained to me that Taoism would not even be truly considered a belief system or a philosophy (my words)- rather the Tao 'is'. What an individual might do is meditate and study and try to uncover and 'see' the Tao- a poor paraphrase might be that the Tao is the essence of the universe- which is beyond the natural world. One who studies and discovers the Tao would discover an essence that is beyond human parameters of the world- then I asked about Buddhism as a philosophy not a religion and was taught that buddhism speaks to ways of behaving and perceiving, including perceptions of nothing and because there is the notion of perception which is a trait of senescent beings one could argue for philosophy. This learned Master suggested - no my paraphrasing- that there is no Taoism there is the Tao. This post is NOT intended to suggest any other posts are wrong or that links etc. are misleading, just wanted to share another viewpoint.

Ol Imp
April 9, 2002 - 09:35 am
In Salt's bio of Thoreau: - Ellen Sewall - both brothers, Henry and John, had love for her - "Ellen , a beautiful girl of seventeen" - "many hours were pleasantly spent" - "the girl (Ellen Sewall) felt anything more than friendship for either of them" - she married another - the man of her choice, a clergyman, with whom she lived happily -

This askew communication triggered many thoughts of my past askew communications with others - feeling very close on my part with no response on the part of the other - others feeling close to me and no response on the part of me - sort of like being off frequency - or maybe not being in tune - maybe needed more "is" to "see" the "essence" of what is going on. - I found my mind flooded with the names of others who I have had askew communications with - even wrote them in the margin of the book - possibly by reading Walden again , I can touch hands with those many askew communications and accept them better -

Barbara St. Aubrey
April 9, 2002 - 11:44 am
Ol Imp you have taken my breath - such reverie you have engaged - here I thought I would read the book on line but with no margins to take notes it will be a real problem - and such heartfelt notes at that - looks like I need to get my copy if for no other reason than to scribble new insights as I read.

Yili Lin I love the definition "the Tao is the essence of the universe." Such a difficult thing isn't it to explain such an ethereal energy. Trying to explain some things we only then realize at times how limited is our vocabulary. If I am reading your post correctly you are saying your learnered master says that Buddhism is a philosophy.

We bandy the word religion around so - to me a religion requres a governing body, an organization that keeps the system of beliefs on course - where as the dictionary seems to say it is only a system of beliefs. I am beginning to think religion is a word that has different meanings according to the culture and traditions of a group.

Jonathan
April 9, 2002 - 01:45 pm
Barbara, you're a great moderator.

OL Imp, what a refreshing point of view you bring to life with your posts. I know I shouldn't be so audacious, but I'll suggest that Thoreau would have found pleasure in your company. He would, I'm sure, have found very interesting your 'askewed communications' regarding your feelings about Walden. As we shall.

And can anyone doubt the curiousity Thoreau would have shown for Tao? It sounds very exciting. Very esoteric. But why should anything met with along The Way, Tao, be BEYOND the natural (experiential) world, or be described as such? Or 'beyond human parameters'? Truly beyond, if there really is something like that, would remain just that. Without our ever knowing about it.

Jonathan

Nellie Vrolyk
April 9, 2002 - 02:34 pm
I'm still around and reading all the posts. As to the discussion proper which will begin soon, are we sticking closely to trying to determine what the author -Thoreau- is telling us, that is, are we mainly attempting to get inside of the author's mind? Or can we also say how things said by Thoreau affect us?

Barbara St. Aubrey
April 9, 2002 - 04:10 pm
Oh please Nellie - how things affect us - this work has been around for over 150 years now and for us to simply take one more walk into the author's mind, in my way of thinking, is reinventing the wheel -

There are sooooooo many books and internet sites that all have their interpretation and slant on this work - where as, some of us may want to get to the depth of the material and add to that line of understanding developing a deeper understanding, I'm all for reflection - self-reflection at that - considering the signifance of what we read in light of our world today and our inner-world as well as, using Jonathan's words, "BEYOND the natural (experiential) world."

Valuable words that I have learned to use when something I'm reading hits me between the eyes are "What?" "So What?" and "So Now What?" - "What" is the point of this chapter or this thought shared - "So What" is the significance or consequences of what I am reading - "So What Anyway" gets me to intergrate the material with my held beliefs and what I personally value - and finally "So Now What" invites me to consider the application of what I have learned and prompts me into a course of action.

The only change in the reading format will be the first week - we will start with the Chapter called Spring and also the first chapter. The following weeks we will discuss 3 chapters a week so that we can finish up by the end of May - we have 18 chapters - two chapters week 1 leaving us 6 additional weeks for 16 chapters - if we need more time along the way - so be it - but if we do discuss the 3 chapters a week and the two chapters the first week we have the last week for the last chapter and an over-all wrap up.

Nellie Vrolyk
April 10, 2002 - 02:47 pm
Barbara, when I'm reading a book like Walden I tend to have little mental conversations with the author. If I have a positive reaction I will have a 'wow, yes I agree with you on that! and furthermore...' type talk; and if I have a negative reaction to what was written I will have a 'OK, I disagree with you on this point...' talk.

I have a younger brother who every autumn spends two or three months out in the woods living in a small cabin he built himself while he goes hunting. He also uses the place as a base camp when he is working as a big game hunting guide. And he loves to be out in that cabin, isolated from everything and everyone.

Patrick Bruyere
April 12, 2002 - 08:39 am
There are times when a person nees to be in a crowd, surrounded by noisy people, and there are times when a person needs to be alone, surrounded by nature's own quiet atmosphere. My friends are divided into those who crave the solace of stillness, and those who need communication with cantankerous crowds.

Whenever I am trapped into a seemingly endless series of days with friends, and just plain people, panic seizes me, and I long for the privacy of the woods, and the stillness that is available to me in this seclusion.

Here I like to ramble, relax and dream, breathing the fresh air, sorting sounds, coming to friendly terms with birds and squirrels and brooding upon the the strange shapes of scattered clouds. Here I am free to think about life's meanings, and whatever pleases or puzzles me.Here I really learn how little I really need in order to be happy. Every smell and noise and breeze and stirring of thought lightly echoes, and adds to the total of me, and all I have ever acquired in the way of learning and knowledge.

To live a fruitful and interesting life, I believe that our thoughts must wander up and down, to and fro. Such thoughts require space and freedom from impact. People who like to be alone are always people who like to think. Thoughts require room to explode, bounce around, or lie dormant, if necessary. Thinkers, therefore, instinctively avoid a crowd, and secede into secret seclusion whenever conditions permit.

When I am in the solitude of the woods, I like to think. Alone, but not lonely, I postulate philosophies, explore my soul, and in the midst of wilderness, listening to the large soft silence, expose my likes and angers, wishes and disappointments, I examine each, and put it in its place. Alone, I redefine my appreciation of the people with whom I live.

At times I need only a few hours; at other times I need a few days withdrawal1o restore myself to the point where I am smothered with seclusion and silence, Then I am ready to return to the hubbub of family and busy people, where I can easily slide back into the ordinary rhythm of my life.

Aloneness is a means, a method to meditation and results in three paradoxes. The first is that a person who truly wishes to find himself must lose himself.

Secondly, the person who is truly alone, is also most fully with others.

Finally, when a thinker stops asking questions, the answer most properly comes, while he is alone, in communion with the Source of Creation, God Himself.

It is in our reflections during these moments that we discover the meaning of our physical existence, the root of our spiritual life, and the necessity of amplifying our meditation and prayer life.

Pat

Barbara St. Aubrey
April 12, 2002 - 10:30 am
Nellie I am understanding this agree disagree position - after letting it sink in there are some concepts that I am finding I do not agree with him but then as Pat is sharing the reverie of simply being in the woods is heaven sent.

Pat your post was like a poem in itself - and oh so true I could relate to everything you said.

Broke down and bought the book - halfprice bookstore had a used hardback copy for only $7 - I find it interesting how I pick up other things by reading it from a book then listening - as I shared earlier I had found and purchased the four disk CD set of Walden. IT is read by what sounds like a young man and so the concept of this young author is coming through to me.

Gotta finish my taxes so I won't be in here till Just before we start on Monday --

Jonathan
April 12, 2002 - 12:13 pm
Judgeing by all the posts, one gets the feeling that Walden finds echoes in all of us, provoking thoughts which reach to the sublime, and yet somehow stay so close to home.

I'm only sorry that I'll be missing the first couple of weeks because of travel plans. I'll take my Walden with me, however, and be with you in spirit.

Jonathan

Barbara St. Aubrey
April 12, 2002 - 05:09 pm
Have a good trip Jonathon - where are you off to?

YiLi Lin
April 13, 2002 - 09:03 am
"The Way, Tao, be BEYOND the natural (experiential) world, or be described as such? Or 'beyond human parameters'? Truly beyond, if there really is something like that, would remain just that. Without our ever knowing about it." Things beyond our realm I think lead to those amazing quests, including spiritual. I do not think we would not know 'about' things outside (or deeply inside like a genome) but perhaps we would not know. I think the desire to know, rather than know about, phenomenon is what inspires. But then again a dialogue on knowing or knowing about, might be simply the old tree falling in the forest question.

Barbara, I do agree that the world is often defined by individual and collective experience, so yes, a definition of a concept like religion certainly would vary among individuals. I think that is what adds flavor to the discussions on seniornet. We all come from different personal, cultural, ethnic and regional experiences and values. I would like to thank you, as a discussion leader, her and on other topics, you work very hard at moderating these differences, keeping us on track and helping us to not be offended if another's viewpoint is not quite like ours. A wonderful job. Hmm is there such thing as discussion leader of the year award- I vote for Barbara!

BaBi
April 13, 2002 - 09:32 am
Barbara, just a a matter of curiosity (and forgive me if you have already answered this question on a post I missed), but why did you elect to begin at the end of the book with 'Spring', and then come back to Ch. 1?

Patrick, your posts are beautiful. You are a poet at heart. I found so much in your last that had me responding "Oh, yes!". In particular, I have found that things nearly always become clearer when I am boxed in, if I simply let them "lie dormant" for a while. ...Babi

Barbara St. Aubrey
April 13, 2002 - 01:32 pm
Babi it seemed upon reading Walden, choosing to start with Spring is a way to honor the season but more, the chapter speaks to our relationship with each other, with our God - and without actually starting at the very end - with the conclusion - Spring gives us a direction while reading this work - I am also taking a page out of Robby's handling of the discussion of Alexis de Tocqueville's "Democracy in America." Now Robby skipped around quite a lot where as I simply pulled this one chapter out of the sequence as offered by Thoreau. Each chapter in Walden is almost like an individual essay arranged by the seasons.

Wow - Yili Lin the applause is mutual - your posts are always filled with a thought to chew on. And yes, "Things beyond our realm I think lead to those amazing quests, including spiritual," makes me ponder how we read -- I am thinking now that we all read with a different quest in mind or maybe our spirit attaches us to our own special quest. Oh boy, my head is off - is it our spirit that directs us to a quest toward growth and new understanding or -- is it some unfinished business that our spirit is yearning to satisfy or -- is it our ego that likes to bury itself in certain quests because it feels good or worthy. hmmm

Let's just start on Monday sharing what ever hit us between the eyes or in our heart when we read both chapters 17 on Spring and 1 on Economics.

Malryn (Mal)
April 13, 2002 - 09:29 pm

"In the great teaching of the Vedas,
there is no touch of sectarianism.
It is of all ages, climes and nationalities
and is the royal road for the attainment
of the Great Knowledge."


Henry David Thoreau

Faithr
April 14, 2002 - 12:23 pm
I have rummaged around to find my copy of Waldens Pond and no success so far. Serves me right for giving away so many books to my kids. I have reread Economy and am on to Spring. See you later. faith

Barbara St. Aubrey
April 14, 2002 - 04:20 pm
Great Quote Mal. -

Economy was a long one wasn't it Faith - ah and now Spring.

With Spring finally here my yard is calling me - the winter clutter is calling me - I've gotten bitten by the idea of moving again but that seems to be an annual reverie - it still doesn't stop me from drawing up my ideal house plans - sorry I think Thoreau's cabin would be just too small for me - I've gotta have a place out of the weather and summer heat to do more than read and write, eat and sleep.

Do not have time tomorrow but during the week I thought it would be fun to take the list of materials for the cabin and bring it up to Home Depot and find out what it would cost to build new today. If any of you had the time and wanted to check it out in your area it could be fun.

The homeless organization in Austin has a place for builders etc. to bring their access material or for those remodeling to bring the old fixtures and material and so if I was really energetic I could probably see what could be purchased through them second hand - my curiosity does not go that far just now.

Malryn (Mal)
April 14, 2002 - 10:06 pm
Yes, it's early Monday morning here in the East, and I'm giving myself the liberty to come here and post.

I grew up in a small city on the Massachusetts-New Hampshire border. From age 7 until age 18, I lived in a house across the street from Round Pond in Haverhill, Massachusetts. Manufacturing shoes was its main industry. Kenoza Lake, less than a mile from where I lived, was the largest part of the small city's water supply. Round Pond across the street provided ice for iceboxes.

There was an ice house near the end of Concord Street, the country street where I lived. It was a kind of eerie place, I thought as a kid. Sawdust all around, darkness inside and musty and cold. Men went out on the pond and sawed cakes of ice which they took back to the icehouse; packed in sawdust and wood shavings and later sold to smalltime dealers who sold it door to door.

Those of you who are familiar with northern Massachusetts know that Winters are long and cold with much snowfall after the ponds and lakes freeze over in October. My mother died in April, 1940, and my two younger sisters and brother came to that house where I'd been taken the day after I had polio five years before, and lived with our aunt and uncle and me two years before they went to New Hampshire to live with my father.

The following winter, we went out on the pond; shoveled the snow off a space maybe 10 feet by 8 feet, so my brother and sisters could skate. I couldn't skate, so sat on a sled and watched them. Once in a while we'd take the old Victrola wind-up portable record player and records over and play music for them to skate by.

March was cold when I was a kid, and there always was a bad snowstorm around St. Patrick's Day. April Fool's Day brought some hope that the snow and ice would melt, but the weather always let us down. It was late in the month when the ice in the pond began to break up, and we had some signs of Spring with crocuses beginning to poke their heads up at the foot of the chimney of the house.

I don't remember hearing the ice creak in the pond as it melted when I was a kid, but in the 70's when I moved back to my hometown from New York after my marriage ended, I lived very near the Merrimack River on which Haverhill is located, and recall being wakened at night by the sound of the ice as it broke up and began its journey southeast to Newburyport and the sea.

When we were children and the first of May came, my brother and sisters and I hoped that perhaps we could take our long, brown, lisle stockings off and hang up our winter coats and snowsuits at last, but that didn't always happen. Nevertheless, we made May baskets in which we put the few early Spring wildflowers we could find and took them to school to our teachers. When warm weather finally came close to Memorial Day, there was an enormous sense of relief -- relief that we'd managed to get through the long winter so we could feel the warmth of the sun. These are a few of the memories that Thoreau's chapter on Spring at Walden Pond brings back to me.

Mal

Ol Imp
April 15, 2002 - 07:46 am
"The cracking and booming of the ice"

I was walking ,late at night, on the train tracks , South of Acton, CA - I was listening to cracking and popping of the tracks , as they contracted to the desert cold - It was the mid '70's - I was between relationships - I sort of felt the track was talking to me and saying 'your not alone" -

I had spent some time looking for wheels and living accomadations - the owner of the trailer said - she "usually did not rent to men , because they were messy" - I had the $118.00 that were 1st and last plus cleaning deposit - So she overlooked her idea of messy men for the money - So I had my adobe in an old orchard , beneath two irrigation ponds .

So "messy man" needed wheels" - found a '61 Valiant in a junkyard - no motor - got a friend to put a 220 slant six in it , from another wreck - $200.00 - parts and labor -

so messy man had a car and home, beneath the ponds, for $318.00 - of course he is out talking to the train tracks at midnight - maybe that's what messy men do.

BaBi
April 15, 2002 - 08:47 am
The northern Spring, as described by Thoreau and Malryn, make fascinatig reading for me. I've never lived farther north than Maryland, when I was pre-school age. My only memory of our one winter there was going out on the porch in the morning and being startled by my first experience of real cold. I went back inside and admitted to my smiling Mother that I thought I would need that new snowsuit after all.

Thoreau's description of the melting sand making forms and patterns as it flowed down the bank...I could see it as clearly as though I had been there. And the songs of the birds...I wish I could hear them. Being partially deaf since infancy, the only bird song I can clearly remember is that of a caged canary that I could listen to up close. What I do remember hearing clearly were the crickets and the tree frogs. I love their 'singing', and it's loud enough. ...Babi

Harold Arnold
April 15, 2002 - 09:07 am
The way Thoreau describes the coming of spring sounds strange indeed to me, a South Texan. I can hardly conceive of ice a foot thick forming on a pond in winter. In my Walden pond in our coldest winter, 1985, there may hav been a quarter inch in a ring around the shore.. I suppose though, I can imagine the importance Thoreau would attach to the break up of the ice covering. After such a winter it was a herald announcing the end of winter and the beginning of spring. A am sure this would be a most welcome transition.

I note that Thoreau describes an early effect of human population on the ecology of Walden and other New England ponds. He tells us that the ice harvesters by cutting out large areas of surface ice created currents causing earlier break up than that experienced previous before ice harvesting had become a commercial operation. I was surprised that commercial Ice harvesting was still being practiced when Malryn was young. I guess I would expect it would have been even then a public health problem. When I was a kid there were many ice houses here in Texas and there was daily home delivery of ice by the “iceman.” The Ice of course was manufactured.

During the winter Thoreau seems to have occupied himself with studying the water temperature at different depths and places in the Walden Pond. This would require him to arguer through the foot thick Ice and dropping the thermometer to the depth he desired. A few of these results are given in the text. An annotation in my text indicates earlier drafts have gave a number of temperature readings that were cut from the final published copy.

I think this chapter is quite typical as an example of Thoreau’s writing style. Obviously it certainly is the writing of a man who saw the things around him in a different way from what we would consider usual today. This is of course the result of his transcendentalism that emphasized the spiritual qualities of what his eyes viewed rather than the real image in their vision. I was quite surprised that in describing the coming of spring at Walden Pond, Thoreau said, “so the alligator comes out of the mud with the quakings of the earth.” Now New England is at least 500 miles north of the most northern range of the alligator. Reading on however Thoreau tells of an old neighbor telling of hearing a loud roaring sound resembling an approaching large flock of ducks. Actually there were no duck. What was heard was the grinding sound made by the thawing, suddenly mobile edge of the floating ice cover grinding against the rocks at the shore. The mythical alligator and the non-existent flock of ducks are simile used by Thoreau to describe the emotion he experienced when the Ice cover broke.

Malryn (Mal)
April 15, 2002 - 09:21 am
It's funny, Harold, but what Thoreau says in the Spring chapter doesn't sound at all "different" to me. Every New Englander in my part of Massachusetts I knew said the same sort of thing. I always thought it was "normal" to look at nature in the way Thoreau did because everybody I knew did. Maybe we were just a different breed!

Mal

Faithr
April 15, 2002 - 09:39 am
I must say I enjoyed Waldens pond more at 21 than I do now. I still appreciate the writing and I also admire Waldens fine eye for descriptive writing. But at 21 I also found it inspirational and I became, for a time, immersed in my own fantasy of living on Waldens Pond. I got my Husband to read the whole Chapter on Economy and he got a kick out of it as he was a General Contractor and building his first 15 houses that year. Also he picked it up off and on and read other parts of the book.So we had a comparison in that way and enjoyed our conversations which was rare as Ed seldom read anything but his own technical stuff.

I find the writing tedious now at my age. Perhaps I feel I have to much to do and to little time to do it in to slow to that pace of contemplation. Anyway I have been impatient and it also could be that I have read this little manifesto over many times in my youth. Even experimented with Transendentalism for awhile.Reading about it only.

I also was raised in the part of the country, high sierras at Tahoe, where in winter we had an ice pond that was cut for ice, packed in sawdust,and sold to townspeople in the summer. The lake never froze as it is too large and deep. Certain bays that were very shallow sort of up into some swampy areas would freeze in the dead of winter Jan to March but that would be a thin sheet of ice that thawed at the first full day of sun.I heard the boom of snow slides but not the boom of cracking ice.

On tv a few weeks ago there was a documentary of Walden's Pond Memorial site or park I cant remember exactly what they called it. An actor portrayed Walden who led us on a tour of his (recreated)house, outbuilding, celler int he hill, down throught he woods to the pond. I must say that is still beautiful country and I enjoyed that tv show immensly. Faith

Malryn (Mal)
April 15, 2002 - 12:15 pm
Old northern New Englanders I knew either would revel in Nature or curse it. I've mentioned that my paternal grandfather raised potatoes in Maine, or tried to. Maine winters are harsh; Summer is short. Grandpa Stubbs railed at the heavens about the granite-filled soil and the unpredictable inconsistencies of the weather. The gods were against him, and he let everyone know. He'd get so mad he made everyone shut up and spent the evenings reading depressing verses about the end of the world from the Bible.

On the other hand, I had an English teacher in high school, a down Mainer transplanted to Massachusetts. I visited him once in his Maine house where he spent the summer, and he showed me the cocoon of a Luna moth he'd been nurturing. He had a great respect for nature, and was especially interested in insects. Some of the photographs he took were remarkable.

Did Thoreau have an outhouse at his cabin at Walden Pond? He must have. When I was in high school I visited my boyfriend (whom I later married) at the two room and porch cottage on Unity Pond in Maine where his parents stayed all summer long. His father was a schoolteacher, and the minute school ended, he and his family left for Maine, so he and his sons could work in the canning factory. (Pronounce that cannon fac-tree.) The outhouse there was out in the woods, and a pain in the neck to reach. I can hear my future father-in-law blast that thing even today.

My husband's paternal grandfather lived in Sidney, Maine. Their outhouse was part of the barn, but could be reached through the one of the rooms in the house. Old Grandmother Freeman bragged proudly that her outhouse was so clean you could eat Sunday dinner in there. She wasn't exaggerating. While visiting there, I had my first experience eating tomatoes out of the garden at the kitchen table, sliced in a saucer and served with sugar and cream and a thick slice of homemade bread and home-churned butter for supper. Don't shake your head. It was delicious.

Grampie Freeman got it in his head one day to cut down an old cherry tree. The cabinet he made from its wood is in my daughter's living room today.

The experiences I had visiting my grandparents and the grandparents of my husband showed me a life that was not very different from Thoreau's day. Outhouses, oil lamps, wood stoves that baked the best bread you ever ate, a hand pump at the soapstone kitchen sink that pumped the best water you ever could drink.

I just remembered the pussy willows and May flowers over by Round Pond in the Spring. In the summer, we kids went over and picked wild blueberries off the bushes by the edge of the pond. We also walked up the hill where we went sliding in the Winter and picked what we called Black Raspberries and sweet little wild strawberries. We found all kinds of treasures including Lady's Slippers in the woods and many, many arrowheads.

Mal

Nellie Vrolyk
April 15, 2002 - 04:19 pm
What to say? Spring. It is not here yet where I am as we had another snowfall overnight and the ice is still on the river. Our lakes still have ice floes in them in early July. But northern Massachusetts, and Maine sound a lot colder than Alberta Canada where I live -being close to the Atlantic ocean would make things considerably colder, I think.

I find in reading Walden that Thoreau seems more observant of nature than people usually are, and he approaches his study of nature in quite a scientific manner -he measures the winter temperatures in the Pond.

Just a couple of thoughts for now.

I think it might be hard to do what Thoreau did when he lived at Walden. For one thing finding a piece of free land to squat on would be almost impossible nowadays -I'm sure you wouldn't find anything like that available near Walden Pond.

Mal, I am enjoying your memories of what New England life was/is like.

Barbara St. Aubrey
April 16, 2002 - 12:48 am
Mal - I thought it poignant how after describing the ice house and the long cold Massachusetts winders you speak of your mothers death - as if you were finding the world this cold musty eerie place after losing the warmth of your mother. And then you chose to skate on that frozen place that reminded me of someone making the cold ice their own till Spring could finally break the grip of loss. Your choice of word, "Nevertheless," almost made me see that regardless how you had prepared yourself to live within your frozen being you hoped to remove that protective shield - make the May baskets and feel the warmth of the sun.

I wondered if upon moving back, after another great loss, you heard the ice creak and felt the withering of spirit that comes with a frozen heart slide to the sea where as, when you were a child you took the chance to skate on the ice and own your loss with a trust that paid off when Spring arrived.

Don’t mean to explain you but - your post was like a mini-story that brought all this to mind - I guess I saw the breaking of the ice in terms of my own frozen feelings because of adult experiences. What I thought so remarkable was the concept of the ice honeycombing. It was a revelation that little pockets of our warm feelings could then like mirrors melt other aspects of our frozen nature. That we do not become filled with the bucolic nature of Spring all in one fell swoop. If we are true to nature as a pond that thaws, it is OK to come back to our inner nature of warm regard slowly and pin hole by pin hole, burning gradually, honeycombing our frozen feelings till the last bit of frozen feelings melt in the fog. That fog is another concept that fits as life doesn’t seem clear and precise but obscure as we question our values and beliefs after a great personal lose or trauma.

Ol Imp - your post is a poem in itself - Messy Men - the contrast between desert heat and cold was wonderful - that contrast is what brought this man’s words into the frame of universal thought don’t you think - I was trying to imagine this booming and cracking of ice and all I could hear in my head was the roar the creeks make after the heat has dried up the creeks and a huge fast driving rain fills them to overflowing.

The rush and roar of water, the sound of the rain is quite a turmoil but not the steady beat that Thoreau describes during the breaking up of the pond. I can even hear and feel the heat that we experience as some poetically describe as the sun on the anvil - but to me has a steady silent sound that saturates every particle of air, drying and curling every growing leaf, subduing all but the hawks, till even my ears feel muffled.

Now we have had some ice storms every so often and one ice storm about two or three years ago brought down tree limbs and electric wires. You could hear the trees crack and break but it isn’t a rhythmic thing. We aren’t even desert here to have the heat and cold contrast. So I am thinking Harold we must live in the land of less elastic air that has lost its resonance as the pond does during the middle of the day. I wonder if this booming and cracking that both the desert and area’s of frozen pond changes relates to the character of the people being more mercurial than those that hunker down focused on getting through the relentless heat - I'm just pondering?

Babi you also were enchanted by the description of the melting sand - After reading your post I had to go back and re-read that bit - Never having seen the start of these sand flows my mind went all over the place with that one -

I realize there are those that could take the essence of this whole chapter and compare Thoreau's thoughts as Transcendentalism but I kept making my own connections as I read this chapter. And with that said - the description of the rivers like blood vessels - well I was reading it just as Pollack was on the Charlie Rose show giving an explanation of today’s youth as being milti-tasked and quick, wanting the essence of the stimulation immediately. I thought hmmm isn’t that what our blood is doing traveling along and splitting into many veins all wanting fresh blood immediately - hmmm maybe the youth were not all that removed from nature after all.

The other bit that hit me was that the sand ceases to flow when the sun withdraws - and "man is a mass of thawing clay" - and then the thought about "turning over a new leaf" - this chapter is a poem that with every re-read another thought comes to mind.

Barbara St. Aubrey
April 16, 2002 - 01:15 am
Harold you picked up on “so the alligator comes out of the mud with the quakings of the earth.” - as a mythical alligator - But I didn't catch that the ducks were a non-existent flock of ducks - well of course then I had to re-read that bit - ended up re-reading the entire chapter.

So is the old man a myth also do you think? --

I love the description of nature as if nature was put in the stocks and he had helped build nature as he laid her keel. The beauty of this man’s writing in this chapter is blowing me away. But I also had a chuckle in that when the economy is flying high and we are booming as in a summer of as we say ‘living amid high cotton’ is when the alligators come out - which to me is symbolic of those who use good times to gobble up the weak where as during times of a tight economy there doesn’t seem to me to be as much fleecing of America.

Faith the chapter on Economy to me seems even in his writing to be parsimonious as compared to the poetics of the chapter Spring. Haven’t put his take on Economy all together yet but, something is not sitting right for me with his philosophy here.

I realize this is written before manufactured goods became a system of interchangeable parts - and that concept of interchangeable parts has effected the way we think as we train ourselves and our children for life; so that we are all specialists rather than jacks-of-all-trades. In other words few of us could build our own homes - what we do is, do well our specialized work and use the proceeds to pay someone else to do the work in which they are specially skilled. I guess the part of this that his hitting me is the lack of creating beauty - he reminds me of folks who brag about the bargain they got or negotiated - as if the bargain was the most important thing rather than paying a fair price for workmanship. It’s as if the bargain is the goal and this emotional run or pragmatic rightiousness for the bargain has lessened even the will toward creating beauty and workmanship; so that only the few who can afford it are the ones who recognize beauty and workmanship and are willing to pay its price. I guess we can all have a table and a chair but few of us even recognize or are willing any longer to pay to own one great Thonet or van der Rohe chair.

I need to re-read the Economy chapter - I understand the economics and the sadness of those dependent on others for shelter because of the lack of their ability to accumulate the small sum to build inexpensively or the skill to build but, somehow I’m missing something and I don’t want to go too far out on a limb till I re-read.

This living with such limiting economics - if we all strive for that model - something isn’t fitting - no, I do not think the issue is helping out the poor but something having to do with my having stayed in some mountain Mexican villages where the houses are adobe huts with thatched roofs and dirt floors - and the water for cooking, washing, you name it, is from the stream that carries disease since it is also used by the burro, chickens, ducks and stray animals - and the people are dependent on their annual corn crop that if you, like I have never lived from crop-to-crop, the concept of a bad crop meaning death visits your hut as a sure thing, all makes me question this concept of being self-sufficient to the exclusion of community. As I said let me re-read.

Mel I wondered about that also - there wasn’t any mention of an outhouse was there - Today he not only would need an outhouse or a septic system but being that close to a pond it would have to be located so that the underground drainage would not affect the pond - and water rights could limit his use of the pond water for personal use. Although, I picked up this fascinating little book Woodswoman - Living Alone in the Adirondack Wilderness by Anne La Bastille an ecologist who, after her divorce, buys 20 acres and builds a primitive log cabin on Black Bear Lake. Her cabin is 12’ by 12’ with an add on porch and a sleeping loft that extends over the porch. She uses 45 logs floated up the lake and the help of some others to build her cabin. I only started the book before the Walden idea took off and so it is on hold with an old envelope holding my place. Again no mention yet of her outhouse but she does use the lake as her source of water.

Nellie - wow - still winter - and I bet that Spring is this messy pushing and yawning of the earth that one day is pretty and the next a mud pile. I bet you are reading between the lines of all that scientific data he offers - can’t wait to hear you weigh-in with some of your personal connections. And I agree with you Nellie, hearing about Malryn’s memories of family and life in New England is a delight.

Did any of you notice in the annotated site chapter 17 is annotated including the translation of the latin phrase -

Malryn (Mal)
April 16, 2002 - 08:00 am
Barb, first I'll tell you that I couldn't skate. Wearing a full length leg brace it is not possible to skate. I did try "double runners" a couple of times with some help, but that didn't work out at all well. As with many other things I've not been physically able to do in my life since I was 7 years old, I did the next best thing. I sat on a sled and watched my brother and sisters skate.

About the death of my mother: There was no feeling of ice in me or my siblings. There were questions about why our mother had to die so young, and there was red, hot anger about it. There also was concern about those three motherless children, age 11, 9 and 5. I had lived at my aunt's and uncle's for five years before my mother died, ever since I had polio, so already had a place to live. My brother and sisters had no mother, an out-of-work father who lived in the next state, and no home. As the oldest, I felt a great sense of responsibility for them. That was foolishness, too, because what could I do at the age of 12? The adults took over and made the big decisions that had to be made.

You must understand that we kids loved winter. We could play in the snow, make snowmen and little houses and forts for our snowball fights out of blocks of snow. We could take our sleds or skis, if we had them, up to the hill where the tall blue spruces grew and slide down to the bottom, a great thrill. We had extra days off from school when storms were bad, and that delighted us. We could play on the frozen pond. We could do all sorts of things, and finally go in the house cold, red-nosed and shivering and drink hot cocoa and laugh about the fun we had.

It is the length of the winter that's a problems for New Englanders. If the first snowfall comes at the beginning of December and lasts until April, that's a heck of a long winter. It gets tedious after a few months, and we all waited and longed for the first breath of Spring.

Mal

Harold Arnold
April 16, 2002 - 08:26 am
Barbara: I did not consider the old man as a myth though I suppose he could have been. The old man was Thoreau's source for the duck story in which the old man mistook the roar of floating ice grinding against the rocks along the shore, as a great flock of ducks approaching in flight. This story seemed to me perfectly likely though I suppose it equally likely to have been the product of Thoreau's mind. In any case, Thoreau tells us he heard it from a witness, who by reason of his long residence on the pond, made a much more credible witness, far more believable than Thoreau himself (a mere short term visitor) could have been.

Malryn (Mal)
April 16, 2002 - 09:03 am
No, the old man wasn't a myth, and I can see why he thought the sound of the movement of the ice might have been a flock of ducks.

There are many stories and storytellers in New England similar to this. It brings to mind the stories I heard about old Henry Hawkins, a real person, who could put more food on the table than fawty wimmin (40 women). Old Henry was a bach who lived alone, and the stories have it that when a meal was done, he turned the plates over and ate from the other side at the next meal. As was the custom in New England in the old days, Henry ate green peas right off his knife and apple pie and baked beans for breakfast, if he had 'em on hand. I wouldn't be at all surprised if these stories are true.

Economy. Like Faith, reading Walden again at this time of my life is quite different from when I've read it before. To me, in Economy, Thoreau sounds like a self-righteous prig more often than not. He criticizes people for going out to work and trying to better their living conditions with money they earn. He criticizes poor people in rags and says that if you give them money, they'll go out and buy more rags. Where have I heard that kind of prejudice and bias before?

Thoreau sees himself as special, set apart from the ordinary hard-working guy. Actually, he was privileged. His brother and sisters paid his way to Harvard, another thing he criticizes. Emerson, for whatever reason, made it possible for Thoreau to go to Walden and set up a house on Emerson's woodlot. The trees Thoreau cut down and hewed for that house belonged to Emerson. Emerson also paid Thoreau for doing chores, so he wouldn't have to take a regular job. Emerson gave Thoreau shelter and food when he needed it many different times, as well as giving him freedom to write. Thoreau was bailed out of jail by his aunt. It seems to me that people were always around to help him when he needed help. Self-sufficient? Not exactly.

Thoreau writes smugly about buying a cabin for a small amount of money and setting it up at Walden Pond. Somebody had to help him do that job. I may have missed it, but I don't see any mention of who it was, do you?

Thoreau also brags about being able to live off the land for very little money. There were plenty of people who did that in those days because they were quietly, desperately poor. I imagine their attitude about how they were forced to live was quite different from Thoreau's.

Thoreau makes some good points about what I consider false values, but his insistence that his way is the best way is a bit annoying to me in this chapter. He says that what people think is good, he thinks is bad, and chides himself for his "goodness".

Thoreau was a lucky idealist, in my opinion. With the various kinds of subsidies he had from others, he had time to do what he liked best -- write.

As I said before, Thoreau was not a Transcendentalist in the true sense of the word; Emerson and others were. I see nothing much transcendental in this chapter, and much prefer his writing about Nature.

Mal

Faithr
April 16, 2002 - 09:29 am
Mal I totally agree with your critism of Economy. I felt "how did I ever read this and still think this guy was a back to nature, simplified living, conservationist, and not see then how he was so disdainful of the poor and the struggling people who worked every day to put food on the table. No wonder I was confused, at 18 to 21 my back to nature period, and thought he was something like my own family.Like my Grandfather who built his own one room cabin with found, and cast off material and help from his friends, then he and my dad built our own house at Tahoe. First they worked at every job they could get to buy the lot cash then they morgaged and hocked everything they had and worked jobs while they built.It took 4 years to build. Everyone had jobs also and then of course the house was finished pretty much when the depression hit and the men had to go out to the valley for work. But my family were true survivalist. But not idealist making a big deal out of building a house in the 1920's with their own hands.Every one did it. My dad was an artist who painted signs for a living, and then houses and barns and always made a living. Someday I will write the story of his building a home up in the redwoods. He called it Huckleberry Hill and he had a one acre veg. patch. He fished and traded work for meat. I will tell how he lived on 10.00 a month cash for sugar flour and coffee, and this in the sixties. Faith

Patrick Bruyere
April 16, 2002 - 09:46 am
Every time Mal writes a post she stirs up memories of the past, and as an editor and writer herself, she has encouraged many beginning writers

Thoreau's writing on economics does show his frugality, but also points out the necessity for saving at that particular time period,

The writer talks about the necessities of life a century ago, at a time when wages were 0.60 cents to a dollar a day for laborers, when workers were not organized, and there was no union to protect them from exploitation.

Having worked for that same wage myself in this century I can easily understand his thriftiness.

Like Barbara, I can see the symbolism used by Thoreau, when he mentions the alligators, as the fleecing of the laborers by their employers, who lived more luxurious lifes than their workers.

When Thoreau says he regrets the inability of man to live in an hour through all the ages of man, to absorb every bit of knowledge, history, poetry and mythology, I think of how far we have advanced in this century in our life time and I realize how fortunate we are to have the computer capability and literacy that we now enjoy.

During the depression my family household consisted of a mother and father and 14 children, living in a house near the railroad yards, coming into continual contact with the hoboes and vagrants who rode the rails, sometimes tasting their "mulligan stew" down by the tracks, or having them sitting at our table with us, sharing food and stories, without benefit of the government grants, foodstamps, and social benefits so easily available today.

In spite of the fact that there was such a lack of jobs available in 1936 when I graduated from High School, I was able to get a job at the Grand Union Store for the marvelous salary of $7.00 for a 70 hour week, and was very grateful to the friend who got me the job.

  Money was very limited, and radio was just beginning to be received from transmitters broadcasting across the St. Lawrence River from Canada.

My grandfather had purchased a radio, so we children found many excuses to visit grandpa, in order to listen to this marvelous invention.

It was called an Atwater-Kent , and consisted of a long black box filled with tubes. It could be used either with head-phones or a huge horn speaker which sat on the top.

During WW2 my 3rd Infantry Division was trapped on the Anzio Beachead for 5 months.

As a diversion from the continual artillery and mortar shell fire we were receiving, I was able to build a crystal radio receiver. I used 2 flashlight batteries, a razor blade, headphones and a piece of copper wire.

With this equipment we could hear Axis Sally and the enemy propaganda, music and broadcasts from Rome.

   After WW2 I was able to build my first tv set from a kit, and I was amazed to realize how far technology had advanced during the four years I was away at war.

I look back on the years since my high school days with amazement. At that time there were no birth control pills, and no population explosion.

This was before TV, pencilin, polio shots, antibiotics and frisbees, before frozen foods,nylon, dacron xerox radar, fluorescent lights, credit cards and ballpoint pens.

Timesharing meant togetherness, not computers. Hardware meant hardware. Software was not even a word. Instant Coffee, McDonalds and Burger King were unheard of, and fast food was what we ate for Lent.

This was before FM radio, tape recorders, electric typewriters, word processors, electronic music, digital clocks and disco dancing. This was before the 40 hour week and the minimum wage.

We got married and then we lived together. Grass was mowed, coke was something you drank, and pot was something you cooked in.

  In the mid-thirties there were no vending machines, jet planes, helicopters and interstate highways. "Made in Japan" meant junk, and "making out" referred to how you did on an exam.

  In our time there were 5 and 10 cent stores where you could buy things for 5 or 10 cents. For just one dime you could ride the street car all day. For a nickle you could make a phone call, or buy a coke or ice cream cone or buy enough stamps to mail one letter and two post cards.

During the depressionyou could buy a new Chevy coupe or a Ford Sedan for $659.00 but who could afford it? Nobody. Very sad, because gas was 11 cents a gallon.

If anyone had asked us to explain CIA, NATO, UFO, NFL, JFK. or ERA we would have said, " that must be alphabet soup."

In the years that have transpired since I graduated, we have come from the horse and buggy age with the outside privies, kerosene lanterns, and all of the limitations, to the rocket age, where we now explore the outer limits of the universe.

This evolution is the result of man's brainpower, Godpower, and faith in God's Grace, combined with man's inventiveness and ingenuity.

With God's help, nothing is impossible.

  Pat Bruyere

BaBi
April 16, 2002 - 12:01 pm
There seems to be a growing consensus here that we are seeing Thoreau quite differently than we did on the first reading. While he may have considered owning 60 acres and a barn, etc., as a great burden, I imagine most of the young men thereabouts would have considered it great good fortune. He seems to sneer at the idea of a lifetime of work. The fact that most of mankind must do so in order to live he considers evidence of "quiet desperation". Personally, a life of idleness, or dilettantism and/or dependency, would have driven me to desperation. I am beginning to think he would do better to stick to his observations and descriptions of nature. ...Babi

Barbara St. Aubrey
April 17, 2002 - 12:38 am
Yaaa - a prig - I love it Mal - when I first read "Economy" I too was caught up in his math and plans for living cheaply - or with thrift and care, only using the resources readily available - now that I am reading it again paying closer attention to the parts that made me feel uncomfortable, that in the first read, I read past wanting to gorge on what was to be the good stuff - I'm beginning to examine some of the issues that made me uncomfortable - The biggie to me is he does not value work - work is simply a means to an end - to work is to be desperate - I think that is Pat's message in his post - most in our generation worked hard - we may have lived when hard work was a given but we took pride in our developing skills just as Pat took pride in building his simple radio.

I think from what we have learned of this man's concerns at the time, he is speaking to the cause of cheap labor and the exploitation of workers. And in truth, we still exploit labor, not so much here in the States but certainly we all benefit from the cheaper price tag available because the product is manufactured abroad where labor is not unionized and is exploited.

Cities, if we want to call them cities, like Juarez are filled with thousands and thousands of cabins not nearly so elegantly rustic as Thoreau's but rather, shacks of every description and made of a variety of scrap that $26 in today’s money would cover the cost of building many of these shelters. No sewers except a low spot created by the waste that runs down the streets and water from a spigot scatered some 100 or more yards away. As much as there was poverty with little education, not even knowing to boil drinking water taken from the streams, there is a level of dignity enjoyed by those that remain in the mountains as compared to those crammed into cities like Juares where they sell their labor too cheaply.

The chapter isn’t really written though as a statement of social justice. He sounds like a kid that has had the advantage of higher education, which was a privilege enjoyed by a select few and now he, in a superior way, lecturs on how much is enough.

Reading further, Thoreau does not value the words and wisdom of the older generation. He almost sounds like a rebellious teen as he minimizes old folks. But then I wonder if he blames the older generation for the plight of the exploited worker.

And his treatise on clothes, patches or not, his in the eye bluster toward the English, who he has decided make a fashion statement only to become richer is where I picked up on the idea that he places no value on our elevating the simple needs in life to a thing of beauty. In this respect I wonder if the influence of the Puritans was still alive and well in 1850s New England.

How many times I have heard the quote, “Men lead lives of quiet desperation” but I never associated it with the concept that the cost of things was a greater exchange of my life and energy than should be required. I always thought it meant that to be unfulfilled in our work, love, play, ability to affect social justice was minimal as compared to the possible and we had little power to affect a change to our view of the possible.

If he had written his discourse on thrift as a guide to determining what is necessary to life and how to have the means toward attaining the financial freedom to observe nature and write then I could have respected his thesis. I could accept that here is a man down-sizing and justifying his choices while suggesting this was the way for anyone wanting to follow a pursuit that does not garner a salary.

I still cannot get over the difference in the tone of these two chapters - His stay in the woods certainly took the edge off some of single minded judgmental views. In "Economy" there is no room for recognizing, observing or admiring nature.

What did y’all think of his statement - "The head monkey in Paris puts on a traveller's cap, and all the monkeys in America do the same" - Advertisement seems to be based on the idea that we will follow a lead - do you think we follow a line of thinking because someone that is considered important makes a statement?

I am thinking beyond fashion and Paris to how we collectively follow common opinion. I wonder how it starts and are we really followers?

Do you think we are a nation of mediocrity that sees virtue in excess so that we have lowered our acts of heroic virtue?

Harold Arnold
April 17, 2002 - 08:29 am
I wonder why Thoreau began the book so abruptly with the long Chapter on “Economy.” There was only a short, three sentences initial paragraph to orientate the reader for the story to follow. These tell only where he lived, how he earned his living, and how long he lived there. It also reveals the fact that he no longer lived there, but had returned to his conventional city life. I think this is grossly insufficient as introduction and the cause of many readers abandoning the reading after the first pages.

Also it would seem to me that some of the later chapters if placed earlier in the book would have made Thoreau’s message more understandable to his readers. For example the second chapter, “Where I Lived, And What I Lived For.” Would seem to me the more logical introductory chapter.

I guess this is picky, picky, picky on my part, but I thought I would throw the criticism out here for your comments. I am inclind to agree with Barbara when she wrote above:
The chapter isn’t really written though as a statement of social justice. He sounds like a kid that has had the advantage of higher education, which was a privilege enjoyed by a select few and now he, in a superior way, lecturs on how much is enough.


Obviously he was not writing for the mass market. This writting was directed to the rather few Harvard alumni. Also I wonder if it did find buyers in England from the growing intelectual liberal set. Note in the "Economy" chapter Thoreau creates a word, "Wilberforce" meaning a strong force bring about a major socal change. Wilebeforce refers to William Wilberforce, a leading sponser of the 1833 act in the English Parliament that abolished slavery throughout the British Empire.

Malryn (Mal)
April 17, 2002 - 08:34 am
Barbara, you say:

"I think from what we have learned of this man's concerns at the time, he is speaking to the cause of cheap labor and the exploitation of workers."
From what I've read about Thoreau over the years and in what he's written, especially this chapter called Economy, I suggest to you that Thoreau was too self-centered and so wrapped up in his own agenda and theses that he had no time to think about or look at the plight of the common man.

Thoreau was very much influenced by Hinduism and Buddhism. A good part of what those religions state is living simply at the sacrifice of most worldly things and spending a lifetime in philosophical meditation. By looking inward, Hindus and Buddhists find "Self" or "Soul", a kind of perfection which is very detached from the everyday struggle to survive. Transcendentalists advocated the same kind of perfection in their search for "Soul", which transcends anything that could be called human.

Thoreau had long since given up traditional religion, often the source of solace to New Englanders of his time. Thoreau was interested in philosophy and no other causes except his own.

This search for a kind of Nirvana perfection I mention has been often repeated throughout history, and most religions are founded on it. Witness the emphasis on "Heaven" or "Paradise".

Mixed in with this, though, was a kind of libertarianism in Thoreau, a need to act as a free individual and use his own free will. Never would he give in to the dictates of society or follow its rules -- like working at a job, bettering oneself through money earned by working, and doing everything the way everyone else did.

My own impression is that he was advocating that people throw off the chains of conformity and elevate themselves through philosophical thought, rather than through the things money could buy. The way to achieve this, Thoreau thought, was by means of economy. When Thoreau says "Economy", he does not mean what we think of today, but rather an old-fashioned idea of "Economy". Economy of action and thought, economy of time, economy of living, all of which left room for the kind of inward advancement that Thoreau needed and wanted for himself.

"Waste not want not" was the watchword of New England. Don't waste time. Don't waste money. Don't waste your life on trivia because what is trivial is sinful (Puritanism). If you practice these things, you'll surely go to heaven here or in the hereafter, and will never want for anything.

Thoreau was a peculiar combination of rebel, student of the classics, liberatarian and Puritan. Did Jesus work eight hours a day? Did Buddha? In Thoreau's estimation, work consisted of doing only what was necessary to exist and spending the rest of the time contemplating Nature and philosophical thought and spreading the word. This was his idealism, in my opinon, which he states so clearly in what he writes.

Mal

Ol Imp
April 17, 2002 - 09:40 am
Jesus split from his family responsibilities and went on a walkabout espousing philosophies.

If a man is a "mass of thawing clay" then he can lay the respnsibility on others than himself. - It has been proven time and again that we are creatures that can be easily manipulated - buying autos with tail fins etc (eg. Status Seekers) - We are currently being manipulated to hate Sadam, etc. - I can remember the hate Khomeni era - or the hate Germans and Japs era - We are clay or sheep - they don't sell autos; they sell youth, good times and sex.

Stearns Wheeler was a friend of Thoreau. In 1837 Stearns lived in a cabin at Flint's pond - Thorueau visited Stearns in 1841 prior to his own stay at Walden.

Ol Imp
April 17, 2002 - 09:46 am
In the reference to Hercules - Hercules killed his family and then said that Hera made me do it - hence, Hercules was let off with 12 actions of some sort of redemption - Actually I felt that Hercules skated from responsibility - Hera made me do it - give me a break .

BaBi
April 17, 2002 - 10:07 am
Harold, it was my impression that the reference to Wilberforce was simply that we did not have a man such as Wilberforce to do for us what he did for Great Britain.

I'm on a see-saw reading Thoreau this time around. I see something I agree with, followed closely by something I heartily disagree with. He wrote, "No way of thinking, however ancient, can be trustd without proof. What everybody echoes or in silence passes by as true today may turn out to be falsehood tomorrow, mere smoke of opinion" Now haven't we all found that to be true time and time again in the last fifty years? How many hard-and-fast scientific "facts" and principles have been shown to be in error? How many impossibilities have been proved possible? How many outlandish flights of the imagination are now the stuff of everyday use?

Then he turns around and makes that smug statement that "Age is no better, hardly so well, qualified for an istructor as youth..." He advocates having the ignorant young taught by the conceited young, apparently! (One does long to smack him just once!)

His comments about those who make up detailed, nit-picking rules and regulations and being the victims of tedium and ennui rang a bell. In our modern slang, we would say they need to "get a life". Having worked for the government in one capacity or another for a good many years, I am of the opinion that since there are people who are paid to write such rules and ordnances, it is incumbent upon them to write some, whether they are needed or not. Those working in the field are of course not consulted, as we would tell them right up front that their shiny new regs. would not work, and were pretty much useless.

We have also seen, I think, the truth of his statement that "The incessant anxiety and strain of some is a well nigh incurable form of disease."

Okay, that's enough for now. ...Babi

Ol Imp
April 17, 2002 - 10:08 am
"The creation of an hour-- I stood in the laboratory of the Artist who made the world and me - strewing his fresh designs about" - suggests a concept of a controlling force "Artist" that lifts the responsiblity off the individual.

"under a more genial heaven"

"the maker of the earth but patented"

"nature- there again is mother of humanity"

"our human life but dies down to its root, and still - puts forth its green blade to eternity" - reincarnation - resurrection ??

"Walden was dead and is alive again"

"The creation of the Cosmos out of Chaos and the realization of the Golden Age"

the "divine seed" & "cognate heaven"

" sins are forgiven" - I think Mcdermott is on trial for killing 7 fellow office workers - in a NE State that does not have the death penalty - trying to plead insanity - not accepting responsibility for actions but manipulating the system to the very end.

"Even he has entered into the joy of his Lord" - suggesting that each person has an individual relationship with their higher power.

"obey the hint which God gives them; now accept the pardon which he freely offers to all" - almost has the idea of an Anthropomorphic power.

"graceful hawk" - "no companion in the universe - sporting there alone - and to need none - it was not lonely but made all the earth lonely beneath it - the tenant of the air" -- sort of sad a type of isolation.

"no stronger proof of immortality"

Ol Imp
April 17, 2002 - 10:22 am
I had a friend who would constantly go into relationships totally afresh with "warm feelings" anew - then he would get dashed about and wind up totally down - no pockets of ice left - just sunk - then wanting the essence of stimulation immediately he would spring forth out of the fog.

Malryn (Mal)
April 17, 2002 - 10:23 am
Ol Imp, do you think Thoreau was shirking responsibility to everyone but himself and what he wanted to do? Thoreau went to Flint's Pond in Lincoln, Massachusetts (where my brother once lived) for a vacation with Charles Stearns Wheeler. Lincoln is the next town to Concord. Wheeler died at the age of 27, and there's mention of his death in Thoreau's letters to Emerson.

Harold, you say Thoreau returned to "the city". In January of the year 2000, the population of Concord, Massachusetts was 15,559. I would guess that in 1845 there were only a few hundred people living there.

Mal

Ol Imp
April 17, 2002 - 10:25 am
Prig: over precise - arrogant - smug - narrow minded. - also an early English version - Petty thief - pickpocket.

Ol Imp
April 17, 2002 - 10:51 am
So Stearns Wheeler dies - The relationship with Ellen Sewall in 1833 ends with her marrying some other man - So he isolates himself , like the hawk - "no companion in the universe" - he could even drill holes in a workman's shed and possibly live there. - I think he was cocooning from the hurt - He probably went into a fog of hurt , rage, anger etc. that at times spewed out against society, religion etc.

I have gone through similar eras of dissappointment in my life - One time I chose to live in my car ; one time ,I lived in a garage and other times in a trailer etc. - felt like "no companion in the universe"

Ol Imp
April 17, 2002 - 11:02 am
Acts of compassion and heroic virtue are selfish acts. It is man fulfilling a need.

Malryn (Mal)
April 17, 2002 - 11:13 am
Ol Imp, the conventional thought is that Thoreau went to Walden to write A Week on the Concord and Merrimack Rivers, a trip he took with his brother who had died. I wonder exactly when Ellen Sewall married? Stearns Wheeler died when Thoreau was living in Emerson's house while Emerson was away lecturing. This was after the Walden Pond period, and quite possibly when Thoreau was writing Walden.

Mal

Barbara St. Aubrey
April 17, 2002 - 12:09 pm
Ol Imp you have opened Pandora’s box for me when you mentioned Wheeler - I have spent now over 2 hours finding what I could and of course fascinated with each discovery. No wonder I couldn't find too much about Wheeler's later life - Malryn's bit about his death I never found and that would be the answer -

Babi oh do I like the piece that you picked up on --
"What everybody echoes or in silence passes by as true today may turn out to be falsehood tomorrow, mere smoke of opinion" Now haven't we all found that to be true time and time again in the last fifty years?
I wonder if that is what is happening to some of us who read this long ago and upon revisiting Walden they are finding they have a different set of values to measure the Thoreau philosophy.

Harold I need to learn more about Wilberforce - does your annotated copy of Walden share anything about that connection - how Thoreau learned of this man from Great Britain.

I have to agree with you Harold - why did he choose to start this book with Economy - we know the book had many revisions and where he used notes from his two year experience at the Pond they really only served as means to illustrate his beliefs.

And Ol Imp back to your statement -- "Acts of compassion and heroic virtue are selfish acts. It is man fulfilling a need." -- Please, Please could you elaborate a bit - I find this a tantalizing statement but can't quite get it.

I sure like your concept of this guy holed up after being wounded by life - it looks like though he may have gotten the idea of how to hole up after spending a vacation during the 1837 summer, upon his and Charles Wheeler graduating from Harvard, in a cabin built by Wheeler on Flint pond.

There is a site Mal that you linked in an earlier post that is so hard to upload that I finally got into and it has the chronology of Thoreau's life. It included that the year before he graduated from Harvard 1836, he spent time in New York about the pencil factory business and a women was in the same boarding house with him. I thought it was Sewall but I cannot get back into that site to check it out - it is a framed site but now I cannot even remember the name of it - the logo is a sketch of the cabin with a few pine trees behind.

Barbara St. Aubrey
April 17, 2002 - 12:26 pm
Once I started to look into Wheeler the more I became enamoured with how thought travels from one to another and from decade to decade. here is what I found -
Charles Stearns Wheeler - A brilliant scholar at Harvard, he was a classmate and friend of Henry David Thoreau.

In 1837, the two spent a summer vacation in a cabin Wheeler had built on the shore of Flint’s (Sandy) Pond in Lincoln, Massachusetts. This experience is generally believed to have been a source of inspiration for Thoreau’s later and more famous residence at Walden.

Thoreau's College essays: "Titus pomponius Atticus, as an Example," - "Social Forms and Restraints," - "The Morality of Living," - "Various Means of Public Influence," - "Provincial Americans," - "The Superior and the Common Man," - "Barbarism and Civilization," - "Conformity in Things Unessential," - "The Sublimity of Death."

His Speech: "The Commercial Spirit."

"Transcendentalism" is a much misunderstood term. It is not connected with any form of meditation. Simply defined, it is a form of idealism. Among other things, it is a belief that the world and everything in it has a spiritual basis, and that God speaks directly to human beings through intuition as well as through nature.

As a philosophical term; The “transcendentals” were notions, such as unity, truth, goodness, and being, which were wider than the categories. Since these went beyond the categories, they were said to transcend them. In a metaphysical sense, the Scholastics considered the “transcendent” the opposite of the “immanent,” and, in this manner, the doctrine of Divine Transcendence was opposed to the doctrine of Divine Immanence

The New England Transcendentalists to some extent followed and creatively transformed German transcendental philosophy. This German portion of their history, influence, and intellectual lineage is exceedingly vast and varied, involving such disparate authors, dramatists, scholars, philosophers, theologians, poets, educators, and reformers as; von Herder, Lessing, Immanuel Kant, von Schelling, Schiller, Schleiermacher, Wilhelm Martin, Leberecht de Wette, David Friedrich Strauss, Weisse, Wolff, and Novalis.

In a stricter sense, transcendentalism refers to a celebrated distinction first made by the great philosopher "Immanuel Kant (1724–1804). whose "Critique of Pure Reason" was published in 1781, and opened a new epoch in metaphysical thought. . . Thus far in the history of philosophy the human mind had not been fairly considered. Thinkers had concerned themselves with the objects of knowledge, not with the mind that knows."

Johann Gottfried von Herder was a brilliant German critic, theologian, and philosopher whose work anticipated the spiritual concepts inherent in Charles Darwin’s theory of evolution. The New England Transcendentalists were stimulated by his spiritual outlook, which emphasized the perfection of nature, the interconnectedness of all phenomena, the illimitability of humankind, the power of reason, and the nobility of conscience.

Charles Stearns Wheeler, heard Schelling in person when he presented his famous lectures on the philosophy of revelation—attempting to harmonize faith and science—in Berlin in 1842. Schelling restored the external world to its place as an objective reality, no fiction, no projection from the human mind. Subject and object, in his view, were one, but in the ABSOLUTE, the universal soul, the infinite and eternal mind. His original fire mist was the unorganized intelligence of which the universe was the expression.

Schiller influenced Margaret Fuller, who taught German using his works. Schiller’s corresponds with Goethe who was influenced by Spinoza.

Spinoza influenced Emerson and Thoreau. Thoreau's thoughts on the human community in Walden reflects Spinoza's Stoic approach to ethics, wherein the greatest joy is a human nature that is perfectly aware and accepting of its place in and unity with the universe. As a philospher Thoreau is labeled as essentially a philosopher of individualism, who placed nature above materialism in private life and ethics above conformity in politics.

Georg Philipp Friedrich Freiherr von Hardenberg, better-known by his pseudonym Novalis, was a German poet, novelist, essayist, and philosopher whose quote "Philosophy can bake no bread, but she can procure for us God, Freedom, and Immortality" is later chosen as the motto for the Journal of Speculative Philosophy.

When the word is used in a very general sense, transcendentalism can well be seen to include all philosophers from Plato to Bradley.

Malryn (Mal)
April 17, 2002 - 03:03 pm
Barb, would you please post the URL of that chronology site? Thanks.

Mal

Patrick Bruyere
April 17, 2002 - 03:13 pm
Thoreau writes:

"The old have no very important advice to give the young, their own experience has been so partial, and their lives have been such miserable failures, for private reasons, as they must believe; and it may be that they have some faith left which belies that experience, and they are only less young than they were. I have lived some thirty years on this planet, and I have yet to hear the first syllable of valuable or even earnest advice from my seniors. They have told me nothing, and probably cannot tell me any thing, to the purpose. Here is life, an experiment to a great extent untried by me; but it does not avail me that they have tried it. If I have any experience which I think valuable, I am sure to reflect that this my Mentors said nothing about."

Thoreau seems to be saying that he himself learned nothing from his College Education or from the older mentors, teachers and people he was aquainted with, and his effective education was really acquired from "the School of Hard Knocks" and that in his writings he was attempting to pass this advice on to his readers.

I myself write to my grandchildren regularly by e-mail and try to pass on to them lessons I have learned in my life- time:

We, were raised during the world wide depression era, and our culture was developed from the difficulties and happy episodes we endured during that time.

We tried so hard to make things better for our own kids that we made them worse.

For you, my grandchildren, I'd like better. I'd really like for youy to know about hand me down clothes and homemade ice cream and leftover meat loaf sandwiches. I really would.

I hope you learn humility by being humiliated, and that you learn honesty by being cheated.

I hope you learn to make your own bed and mow the lawn and wash the car.

And I really hope nobody gives you a brand new car when you are sixteen.

It will be good if at least one time you can see puppies born and your old dog put to sleep.

I hope you get a black eye fighting for something you believe in.

I hope you have to share a bedroom with your younger brother/sister. And it's all right if you have to draw a line down the middle of the room,but when he wants to crawl under the covers with you because he's scared, I hope you let him.

When you want to see a movie and your little brother/sister wants to tag along, I hope you'll let him/her.

I hope you have to walk uphill to school with your friends and that you live in a town where you can do it safely.

On rainy days when you have to catch a ride, I hope you don't ask your driver to drop you two blocks away so you won't be seen riding with someone as uncool as your Mom.

If you want a slingshot, I hope your Dad teaches you how to make one instead of buying one.

I hope you learn to dig in the dirt and read books. When you learn to use computers, I hope you also learn to add and subtract in your head.

I hope you get teased by your friends when you have your first crush on a boy\girl, and when you talk back to your mother that you learn what ivory soap tastes like.

May you skin your knee climbing a mountain, burn your hand on a stove and stick your tongue on a frozen flagpole. I don't care if you try a beer once, but I hope you don't like it. And if a friend offers you dope or a joint, I hope you realize he is not your friend.

I sure hope you make time to sit on a porch with your Grandma/Grandpa and go fishing with your Uncle.

May you feel sorrow at a funeral and joy during the holidays.

I hope your mother punishes you when you throw a baseball through your neighbor's window and that she hugs you and kisses you at Hannukah/Christmas time when you give her a plaster mold of your hand.

These things I wish for you - tough times and disappointment, hard work and happiness. To me, it's the only way to appreciate life.

Malryn (Mal)
April 17, 2002 - 03:17 pm
Barb, Thoreau didn't meet Ellen Sewall until 1839, so she wasn't in New York in 1836 when he was there.

The best definition of Transcendentalism is in Emerson's essay Nature. There is excellent material about it and Thoreau and Emerson's time in Van Wyck Brooks's Pulitzer Prize book The Flowering of New England. Try to get it from your libray. I own it, but it's packed away with all that rest of my books which have never been unpacked since I moved into this house two years ago.

Below is a link to frequently asked questions about Thoreau.

Questions about Thoreau

Malryn (Mal)
April 17, 2002 - 03:30 pm
Below is a link to Emerson's Nature. Incidentally, I found an annotated text of Walden on the web.

Emerson's Nature

Malryn (Mal)
April 17, 2002 - 04:22 pm
From a letter from Emerson to Thoreau, July 20, 1843.

"You will have read and heard the sad news to the little village of Lincoln of Stearns Wheeler’s death. Such an overthrow to the hopes of his parents made me think more of them than of the loss the community will suffer in his kindness, diligence, and ingenuous mind. The papers have contained ample notices of his life and death."

Nellie Vrolyk
April 17, 2002 - 04:34 pm
While reading Economy it seemed to me that he was advocating a way of life that even he could not follow for longer than some two years. I wonder why he did not stick it out longer at Walden Pond seeing as to how he was so enamoured of the simple lifestyle he lived there?

And I just 'love' -this is said very tongue in cheek- his bit on shelter and how he thinks a big box he sees by the railroad would make suitable housing for single men:
"...I used to see a large box by the railroad, six feet long by three wide, in which the laborers locked up their tools by night; and it suggested to me that every man who was hard pushed might get such a one for a dollar, and, having bored a few auger holes in it, to admit the air at least, get into it when it rained and at night, and hook down the lid, and so to have freedom in his love, and in his soul be free."


I think that Thoreau would have been well pleased to see all the homeless people who live in cardboard boxes nowadays, because that is about what he is saying there in that quote.

You have all made such interesting posts!

Malryn (Mal)
April 17, 2002 - 04:47 pm
Quoted from a letter from Thoreau to Emerson, Feb.12, 1843

"How mean are our relations to one another! Let us pause till they are nobler. A little silence, a little rest, is good. It would be sufficient employment only to cultivate true ones.



"The richest gifts we can bestow are the least marketable. We hate the kindness which we understand. A noble person confers no such gift as his whole confidence: none so exalts the giver and the receiver; it produces the truest gratitude. Perhaps it is only essential to friendship that some vital trust should have been reposed by the one in the other. I feel addressed and probed even to the remote parts of my being when one nobly shows, even in trivial things, an implicit faith in me. When such divine commodities are so near and cheap, how strange that it should have to be each day’s discovery! A threat or a curse may be forgotten, but this mild trust translates me. I am no more of this earth; it acts dynamically ; it changes my very substance. I cannot do what before I did. I cannot be what before I was. Other chains may be broken, but in the darkest night, in the remotest place, I trail this thread. Then things cannot happen. What if God were to confide in us for a moment! Should we not then be gods? How subtle a thing is this confidence!



"Nothing sensible passes between; never any consequences are to be apprehended should it be misplaced. Yet something has transpired. A new behavior springs; the ship carries new ballast in her hold. A sufficiently great and generous trust could never be abused. It should be cause to lay down one’s life, — which would not be to lose it. Can there be any mistake up there? Don’t the gods know where to invest their wealth? Such confidence, too, would be reciprocal. When one confides greatly in you, he will feel the roots of an equal trust fastening themselves in him. When such trust has been received or reposed, we dare not speak, hardly to see each other; our voices sound harsh and untrustworthy. We are as instruments which the Powers have dealt with. Through what straits would we not carry this little burden of a magnanimous trust! Yet no harm could possibly come, but simply faithlessness. Not a feather, not a straw, is entrusted; that packet is empty. It is only committed to us, and, as it were, all things are committed to us.



"The kindness I have longest remembered has been of this sort, — the sort unsaid; so far behind the speaker’s lips that almost it already lay in my heart. It did not have far to go to be communicated. The gods cannot misunderstand, man cannot explain. We communicate like the burrows of foxes, in silence and darkness, under ground. We are undermined by faith and love. How much more full is Nature where we think the empty space is than where we place the solids! — full of fluid influences.

"Should we ever communicate but by these? The spirit abhors a vacuum more than Nature. There is a tide which pierces the pores of the air. These aerial rivers, let us not pollute their currents. What meadows do they course through? How many fine mails there are which traverse their routes! He is privileged who gets his letter franked by them.



"I believe these things."


HENRY D. THOREAU

Malryn (Mal)
April 17, 2002 - 05:21 pm
I found this very good definition of Transcendentalism HERE

"Transcendentalism was a philosophic and literary movement that flourished in New England, particularly at Concord (c.1836-1860), as a reaction against eighteenth-century rationalism, the skeptical philosophy of John Locke, and the confining religious orthodoxy of New England Calvinism. This romantic, idealistic, mystical, and individualistic belief was more a cast of thought than a systematic philosophy. It was eclectic in nature and had many sources. Its qualities may be discerned through Jonathan Edwards’ belief in "a Divine and Supernatural Light, immediately imparted to the soul by the spirit of God," and the idealism of Channing, whose Unitarianism was a religious predecessor of this belief in an in-dwelling God and intuitive thought. It was also a manifestation of the general humanitarian trend of nineteenth-century thought.



"Although the very spirit of transcendentalism permitted contradiction, and its eclectic sources made for diverse concepts, in its larger outlines the belief had as its fundamental base a monism holding to the unity of the world and God and the immanence of God in the world. In effect, the soul of each individual is identical with the soul of the world and latently contains all that the world contains. Man may fulfill his divine potentialities either through a rapt mystical state, or through coming into contact with the truth, beauty, and goodness embodied in nature and originating in the Over-Soul. Thus occurs the doctrine of correspondence between the tangible world and the human mind, and the identity of moral and physical laws. Through belief in the divine authority of the soul’s intuitions and impulses, based on this identification of the individual soul with God, there developed the doctrine of self-reliance and individualism, the disregard of external authority, tradition, and logical demonstration, and the absolute optimism of the movement."

Barbara St. Aubrey
April 17, 2002 - 05:39 pm
OK Mal found the site to get the URL - this is a wonderful site but does such awful things to my computer -- He had some woman in the same boarding house in New York in 1836 - see if you can capture the information would you -

http://www.walden.org/society/default.asp?MFRAME=/society/chronology.htm

I found this other Chronology of Thoreau's Life that does not mess up my computer and lo and behold it says that both Henry and John proposed and were rejected by Sewall.

The site also seems to indicate 1837 was a busy year for our Thoreau.

And my word look -- in 1844 he and a friend accidentally start a fire in Walden Woods that consumes 300 acres. Some townsmen will never forgive this carelessness.

http://www.calliope.org/thoreau/thorotime.html

Barbara St. Aubrey
April 17, 2002 - 05:51 pm
Maybe Nellie it wasn't tongue and cheek -- hehehe - maybe he was not only solving the shelter problems for all the homeless that the remembered depression must'ave surfaced but since it was John that saves the family business - maybe building and living in the cabin was a way to avert his feeling shame that he did not successfully save the families business. I like Ol Imps reasons for living in the cabin - not so grand a purpose only the sheltering of his wounds.

Malryn (Mal)
April 17, 2002 - 07:16 pm
Barbara, thanks for the URL. I had been on that site several times today.

This is what I found out about Lucy Brown. She was not in New York with Thoreau in 1836. Lucy Jackson Brown was the sister of Emerson's wife Lidian and boarded with the Thoreaus. Henry David Thoreau admired them both.

Lidian Emerson was 15 years older than Thoreau. Lucy Brown was 18 years older than Thoreau. Except for Ellen Sewall, Thoreau seemed to be attracted to older women.

Carl Bode attributes this to an Oedipal fixation Thoreau had on his mother, which he never outgrew. Cynthia Thoreau outlived all of her children except one daughter and outlived her husband. She was very much a part of her son, Henry's life. Even while at Walden Pond, he spent quite a bit of time with his mother. Bode suggests that Thoreau was an incipient homosexual who sublimated his sexual feelings in Nature and writing about it.

He then says, "In the face of our own speculation (which) seems forced, perhaps it is best after all to return to Thoreau's own self-analysis:

" ' The poet cherishes his chagrins and sets his sighs to music.' "

Ol Imp
April 17, 2002 - 08:22 pm
Whether taking care of, or giving to another, with compassion - everybody needs somebody to look down on - hence meeting a selfish need..

Mal #144: "hard, industrious work, - study" to "improve yourself and where you lived, thrift, frugality, individuality, self-sufficiency and self-restraint " -- "restrictive old fashion place" - far from hedonism - what does all this industry get you? - what is the reward? - in heaven?? - So do I skew my ethics, morality, philosophy, etc. to the moment ??

Henry's sister Helen died in 1840 - John, his brother died in 1842 - loss of two siblings and friend Stearns - "no companion in the universe"

Harold Arnold
April 17, 2002 - 08:33 pm
Barbara the annotation in my copy simply reads, “Wilberforce. William Wilberforce (1759 – 1833), who sponsored the Emancipation Act that freed all the slaves in the British Empire in 1833” I remember from an English history course that this act had the strong support of the Quakers in England and provided for the paying of monetary compensation to the slave owners (mostly centered in the West Indies).

In the 18th century there had been a famous English court case that renounced slavery. A Virginia Planter visiting England had taken his servant there and when ready to depart was hit by a law suit. The court held slavery an odious condition unknown to English law. A slave it held was free as his foot touched the ground. Apparently the rule did not apply in the colonies.

Ol Imp
April 17, 2002 - 08:38 pm
Even though I am not homosexual ; I have some close friends who are - they openly talk about the male bodies that they observe - I didn't experience this in reading Thoreau - Of course the time is different; maybe they are far more open now. - Of course if he felt an affinity with males and could not express it in some way , this would make him feel alone "no companion in the universe".

Malryn (Mal)
April 17, 2002 - 08:42 pm

Ol Imp, I left New England when I was 19 years old and didn't go back there to live until I was 49 years old. I was received as a stranger in my hometown because I'd lived so many other places, so I left after a couple of years and some terrible winters and moved south. Nevertheless, the place I call home is New England because that's where my roots are.

I love the granite bound coast of New Hampshire and Maine, the haddock and lobsters and fish chowder, the tall spruces, the lilacs and peonies in spring, the narrow streets I know in Boston lined with their bookstores, the libraries, the respect for learning and culture and the hardy, hard-working people. My regret is that I probably will never go back to see that frigid ocean again. That's all right. The New England I love today probably exists only in my mind.

Those were hard losses for Thoreau, not unlike losses other New England people have suffered throughout the centuries. I could tell you a lot of stories about that.

What is the reward for all this industry? Well, as far as I'm concerned, I don't believe in heaven, so the work I have done all my life, including today, is the reward. Without my work and the writing I do, I'd be so depressed, I'd no doubt go crazy.

Mal

Ol Imp
April 17, 2002 - 08:48 pm
My philosophy seems to alter depending on the situation I am in - I guess I have not found consistency in the various philosophies I have looked into . - I guess ,I sort of play life by the moment.

Barbara St. Aubrey
April 17, 2002 - 08:58 pm
Wow great stuff Mal - so it was Lucy Brown sister to Emerson's wife Lidian - yes - I have seen several sites exploring Henry possible homosexuality - you know I just do not care - there is enough good stuff to explore without sneaking off to spy or conject what he did in the bedroom. (Gads I wonder if there are folks that believe his sexual orientation affect what and how he wrote?!?) Fixation or not (more of someone's conjecture) it is nice to note his mother lived and was a part of his life for so long, don't you think.

Aha - I see now Ol Imp what you are saying - and in most cases I really agree with that thought but I must say I think sometimes compassion is an understanding because of recongnizing similar pain or circumstances. That kind of compassion is usually expressed differently than by giving or fixing or taking care of physically or emotionally. Your posts today were so wonderful and you have such a way of reducing a thought to the mearest shadow of an example. I am so glad to be able to experience this gift you possess.

Ah so Harold - Thanks - I am trying to remember the British Masterpiece Theatre short series that was a Novel that centered about this time in history. A poor shipper marries well only to loose it all. The new wife falls in love with one of the Black slaves kept in their celler and the prune of an old sister who had been the mistress of his house and their investments tries to hold it all together.

Barbara St. Aubrey
April 17, 2002 - 09:24 pm
Whoops just now noticed your addtional posts - I am enchanted with you post #221 Mal, and want to copy it on my notepad so I can glean from it - "The richest gifts we can bestow are the least marketable. We hate the kindness which we understand." I love it - but his sentences and chosen words are just archaic enough that it is a struggle for me to better understand what he is saying.

Barbara St. Aubrey
April 18, 2002 - 03:06 am
Portrait of William Wilberforce, the son of a wealthy merchant, born in Hull in 1759.

In 1784 Wilberforce became converted to Evangelical Christianity. He joined the Clapham Set, a group of evangelical members of the Anglican Church...As a result of this conversion, Wilberforce became interested in social reform and was eventually approached by Lady Middleton, to use his power as an MP to bring an end to the slave trade.

Wilberforce, along with Thomas Clarkson and Granville Sharp, was now seen as one of the leaders of the anti-slave trade movement.

Some people involved in the anti-slave trade campaign...argued that the only way to end the suffering of the slaves was to make slavery illegal. Wilberforce disagreed, he believed that at this time slaves were not ready to be granted their freedom. He pointed out in a pamphlet that he wrote in 1807 that: "It would be wrong to emancipate (the slaves). To grant freedom to them immediately, would be to insure not only their masters' ruin, but their own. They must (first) be trained and educated for freedom."

William Wilberforce died on 29th July, 1833. One month later, Parliament passed the Slavery Abolition Act that gave all slaves in the British Empire their freedom.

Malryn (Mal)
April 18, 2002 - 10:29 am

This is the response from Emerson to the poignant letter Thoreau sent to him which I posted here.

"NEW YORK, February, 1843.



"MY DEAR HENRY, — I have yet seen no new men in New York (excepting young Tappan); but only seen again some of my old friends of last year. Mr. [Albert] Brisbane has just given me a faithful hour and a half of what he calls his principles; and he shames truer men by his fidelity and zeal. Already he begins to hear the reverberation of his single voice from most of the States of the Union. He thinks himself sure of W. H. Channing as a good Fourierist. I laugh incredulous while he recites (for it seems always as if he was repeating paragraphs out of his master’s book) descriptions of the self-augmenting potency of the solar system, which is destined to contain one hundred and thirty-two bodies, I believe, and his urgent inculcation of our stellar duties. But it has its kernel of sound truth; and its insanity is so wide of New York insanities that it is virtue and honor."


Not once did Emerson refer to anything Thoreau said in his letter. It has occurred to me, especially after reading about the relationship between Thoreau and Emerson, that Emerson often became impatient with Thoreau and wished he’d show signs of a little more practicality.

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
April 18, 2002 - 10:37 am

Did Thoreau imitate Emerson? The following quote is from the introduction to Nature, the essay by Emerson.



"Philosophically considered, the universe is composed of Nature and the Soul. Strictly speaking, therefore, all that is separate from us, all which Philosophy distinguishes as the NOT ME, that is, both nature and art, all other men and my own body, must be ranked under this name, NATURE. In enumerating the values of nature and casting up their sum, I shall use the word in both senses; — in its common and in its philosophical import. In inquiries so general as our present one, the inaccuracy is not material; no confusion of thought will occur. Nature, in the common sense, refers to essences unchanged by man; space, the air, the river, the leaf. Art is applied to the mixture of his will with the same things, as in a house, a canal, a statue, a picture. But his operations taken together are so insignificant, a little chipping, baking, patching, and washing, that in an impression so grand as that of the world on the human mind, they do not vary the result."

BaBi
April 18, 2002 - 11:47 am
I want to add my thanks to Malryn for her posts #221 & 222. I got a great deal out of them.

In regard to Emerson, I was a bit surprised by Thoreau's statement that in his time there were "Professors of philosophy, but not philosophers". Consider his own definition of a philosopher, ie., "To be a philosopher....is to solve some of the problems of life, not only theoretically, but practically". Given that definition, I would have thought he would consider Emerson to be a philosopher. But perhaps Emerson failed the test by not going to live in the woods!

Does anyone want to volunteer to go expain to the homeless men living in cardboard boxes how fortunate they are? (Kidding, of course.)

I dearly hope that some of you of philosohical bent will be able to explain to me the vague maunderings that commence on pg. 11. Thoreau speaks of the "secrets in my trade", which he claimed were not voluntary on his part, but "inseparable from it very nature". As his "trade" at that point appears to consist of observations of Nature (with a capital N), I am at a loss to think what "secrets" could be associated with this activity. Much less how these secrets are inseparable from it's very nature.

I am consoled to find that I am not the only to find his search for his hound, his horse and his turtle-dove obscure. According to the footnotes, the critics are of different opinions on the subject. It may,however, support OlImp's suggestion that his retreat to the woods was motivated by personal losses. ...Babi

Barbara St. Aubrey
April 18, 2002 - 01:02 pm
Babi I love it - I laughed outloud and here I am at the office - this is a rather full day and I do not have the book with me - it will probably not be till late tonight that I can look at what page 11 is saying. As turtles go my timing is about right...

Malryn (Mal)
April 18, 2002 - 03:27 pm
"In any weather, at any hour of the day or night, I have been anxious to improve the nick of time, and notch it on my stick too; to stand on the meeting of two eternities, the past and future, which is precisely the present moment; to toe that line."
I think Thoreau is teasing the reader here. His secret is that he's going to savor time; not nick it, and study what it means in Nature. Big secret! He's laughing at fools who are too busy looking into the past or future ever to know what the present moment is or be aware of when it happens.

Thoreau says:
"I have met one or two who have heard the hound, and the tramp of the horse, and even seen the dove disappear behind a cloud, and they seemed so anxious to recover them as if they had lost them themselves."
Any old New Englander who read this would laugh -- just as Thoreau is laughing -- at the fools who get so "het up" about a hound, a horse and a dove that somebody else has lost that they act as if they had lost what they themselves owned.

It's my opinion that Thoreau is telling his readers to be economical about time because that one moment of the present will never return again, and to be economical about what they get upset or anxious about because most of the time it's not worth it at all.

One must be careful not too read too much into what Thoreau writes. He'll generally let you know when it's important. He'll also pull your leg with Yankee humor, such as the above. What he's saying here about the lost hound, horse and dove is: A cigar is a cigar, so why stew about it and try to turn it into an elephant?

Mal

Barbara St. Aubrey
April 18, 2002 - 08:14 pm
Great Mal - I love it - I didn't get the yankee humor where as the thought explained seemed to be was right on - This chapter is an interesting blend, almost reminds me of Mark Twain - the whole chapter seems to be his taking a theory of philosophy and making it his own by explaining it in terms of his life time experiences.

Ol Imp
April 18, 2002 - 10:06 pm
I had the opportunity to work in the field of rehabilitation for 17 years - part of this included conversations with men who lived in boxes and other places in the Los Angeles area - "my box is comfortable" - "I prefer it to anywhere else" - "I like living under the bridge" - "I like living on the seat of my bicycle" -

But sir , if you go through my county rehab program I can get you a job - Then you can rent an apartment - buy wheels - get the right clothes - pay utilities - be in debt like the rest of us. - Push the big barn around - get off your pumpkin of comfort and follow us down the the road of quiet desparation.

By the way - where can I find an existential box? - with limited obligations and responsibilities.

YiLi Lin
April 19, 2002 - 11:49 am
What a man thinks of himself, that it is which determines, or rather indicates, his fate.!

Well Barb, you did say our discussion should highlight things that strike us- and the above strikes. - and interests me in the timliness of the statement, one that was as provocative then as it is now.

Ol Imp
April 19, 2002 - 03:41 pm
"lime and bricks, are cheaper and more easily obtained than suitable caves, or whole logs, or bark in sufficient quantities" -

Back in about 1945 the rent was increased on my father's business in downtown San Diego to $120.00 a month - So father decided to build his own shop next to the house (the zoning was commercial) - He wanted to pay for everything with cash and didn't want to owe anybody - The architect drew the plans and pulled the permits for $250.00 - concrete blocks were cheaper and did not have to serviced - My father , rented a truck and we three kids hauled the blocks, first to the truck from the manufacturer and then to the work site , from the truck - The building was designed with South facing windows (solar heating)hence, there was no heating or cooling in the structure - no plumbing - the adjacent bathroom , in the house was sufficient - This kept the cost down - The fellow , across the street who built trailers did the labor - The total cost of the structure was $1600.00 for a 16 foot by 38 foot building - still standing today. "my hands were much employed" along with my brother and sister in moving concrete blocks.

Father didn't have to drive to work anymore , saved money.

Ol Imp
April 19, 2002 - 04:06 pm
In doing my genealogy I found that, depending on religion, at times, determined the burial location of a relative - In more current burials ,I found there were sections of cemeteries for particular religions etc. - Thoreau's quote "it would have been wiser and manlier to have drowned in the Nile, and then given his body to the dogs" other than perpetuating "the memory of themselves by the amount of hammered stone they leave" - It took years, but now CA state law allows disposal of ashes ,after cremation on unconsecrated ground - Memorial societies , have cut the costs of funerals and have made the process of death cheaper.

Barbara St. Aubrey
April 20, 2002 - 04:06 am
Good to see your post Yili Lin - The quote you chose is a provocative one - lots of spooky words and thoughts there that can bring up all sorts of further thoughts - 'fate' and our attitude affecting our fate - I need to play with and further those thoughts - hmmmmm

Ol Imp your sharing had me scratching my head - I remembered reading something about the English Cottager and just couldn't let it go - well I finally found it and yes, the book is; the Cottage Garden by Anne Scott-James. Evidently through the eighteenth century there was this movement afoot that Landlords were creating enclosed parks and the villages were sometimes left in deep poverty with un-repaired housing but, in the late eighteenth and all through the nineteenth centuries there was a real turn around.

The Tenants were given a freehold to house and garden with enough land to provide fruit trees, a pig in back that would eat the garbage and supply the family with its annual quota of meat. With careful husbandry the plot could feed a family of 5; taking care of all the families needs.

The debate raged but for the most part the amount of land that accompanied each cottage was equivalent to an eighth of an acre. Some in Parliament wanted the cottage to have an acre so they could raise at least 2 pigs in addition to other livestock.

The vegetables grew in the front yard interspersed with flowers. Some wanted the cottager to train his fruit trees against the house omitting the space needed for trees. Certain fruits or hops were to used as the hedge and a family of five should plantA 20 rod garden is 1/8th of an acre.

Well with all this goings on in England and the debate filling the London newspapers - I wonder if any of this had an affect on our Henry’s concept of what was necessary to maintain himself.

Barbara St. Aubrey
April 20, 2002 - 04:31 am
Burials - interesting how differently they are handled in different parts of the world - For many years I thought I would like to be buried at sea till I recently saw one of the Brit Coms and it turns out to be rather expensive. Seems they have to take you out past the 10 mile limit and the cost of hiring a boat to do it all is as or more expensive than a land burial.

This first chapter is like digging deep for a nugget here and there - I am now getting the impression that he used all these words and thoughts to frame a sentence here and there.

I thought an interesting equality of man regardless of accumulated financial wealth was his concept when his asks "not equally improving men...if civilized man's persuits are worthier than the savage" and he goes on to question why we should have a better dwelling since he was equating civilized man's persuits to be no better than the persuits of the savage.

And than he asks "Always study how to get more not content with less."

Even in this chapter that reads to me like a combination; Accounting ledger, Sunday serman and 'How To' manual, he refers to Spring and its influence "arousing them they would of necessity rise to a higher and more etheral life."

The real eye opener for me - I never thought of it that way but I could see the thought as a metaphore for so many of the things we choose as important, until we are masters of what we chose rather than, who we thought we were - I am referring to the bit about "break an animal...board him for work...become a keeper of animals" -- buy a car...board it for work...become a keeper of a car -- buy a washing machine...board it for work...become a keeper of a washing machine -- and really even deeper -- read a book...board the words and ideas of the author for work in our minds and ultimatly our actions...become the keeper of the author's words and ideas.

Keep-ern. 1. ONe that keeps, a.An attendant, guard, or warden b.One who has the charge or care of something 2. A device for keeping something in place.

Barbara St. Aubrey
April 20, 2002 - 05:46 am
Sardanapalus - In Dio's day (3rd century A.D.), evidently a derogatory epithet for rulers given over to sensuality and extravagance. Perhaps the name is meant to suggest a particularly Oriental sort of luxuriousness as well, since Elagabalus was himself a native of Syria.

Eugene Delacroix The Death of Sardanapalus 1827 - oil on canvas 153x193in - Musee du Louvre, Paris

Malryn (Mal)
April 20, 2002 - 06:25 am

Here's another old watchword in New England Thoreau uses as a springboard that was there before he ever came on the scene.

Use It Up, Wear It Out, Make It Do, or Do Without.

YiLi Lin
April 20, 2002 - 07:22 am
just wondering what the differences are between "civilized man and the savages"?

also as we read, I get a new sense of curiosity about some of the items and issues we touched upon in the "pre" discussion. I am trying very hard to not have the view of T's life impact on our current read and concentrate primarily on the relatedness (or not) of the message.

YiLi Lin
April 20, 2002 - 07:27 am
We might try our lives by a thousand simple tests; as, for instance, that the same sun which ripens my beans illumines at once a system of earths like ours. If I had remembered this it would have prevented some mistakes. This was not the light in which I hoed them. The stars are the apexes of what wonderful triangles! What distant and different beings in the various mansions of the universe are contemplating the same one at the same moment! Nature and human life are as various as our several constitutions. Who shall say what prospect life offers to another? Could a greater miracle take place than for us to look through each other's eyes for an instant? We should live in all the ages of the world in an hour; ay, in all the worlds of the ages. History, Poetry, Mythology! -- I know of no reading of another's experience so startling and informing as this would be...

Too bad this statement was not examined by each succeeding generation, perhaps our way of life today would be very different, and ideally more peaceful. I wonder now in my past under 'what light' I hoed my gardens and will try to gather from you all an awareness of the various lights available for my future. was it on this discussion way back - or another- that we explored the gardening metaphors and similies?

BaBi
April 20, 2002 - 08:32 am
Malryn, I'm so glad we have an "old New Englander" to warn me when Thoreau is into Yankee style humor. I hadn't thought of that possibility.

Ol'Imp...your point about the men in cardboard boxes is well-taken. It is so easy to assume that what we view as unfortunate is considered so by the 'sufferers'.

As I read on, I am finding more and more of what I originally liked so much about WALDEN POND. I read the following and thought: TRUE!

"..I am sure there is greater anxiety, commonly, to have fashionable, or at least clean and unpatched clothes, than to have a sound conscience."

"..he considers not what is truly respectable, but what is respected."

(I got a laugh out of this one.) "Passing a cornfield the other day, close by a hat and coat on a stake, I recognised the owner of the farm. He was only a little more weather-beaten than when I saw him last." Who was it who said Thoreau sometimes reminds them of Mark Twain? This, I think, is great example.

Finally, "But if my jacket and trousrs, my hat and shoes, are fit to worship God in, they will do; will they not?"

...Babi

Malryn (Mal)
April 20, 2002 - 10:09 am
"This is not an easy book, especially at the beginning. It's best not to spend too much time on individual sentences, pondering the meaning of each phrase. Walden is the classic 'more than the sum of its parts,' and it's easier to pick up the overall meaning if you take care not to get caught in the details -- just keep reading. Try to 'listen' to the words, to catch the tone, the color, the sound. Henry Thoreau loved words and writing and ideas. He put a lot of his life into developing ideas and writing them down, and most of the time he never expected to get much back except for the joy of his work. If you listen carefully, the joy is still there."

Malryn (Mal)
April 20, 2002 - 10:43 am
THOREAU SURVEY

Barbara St. Aubrey
April 20, 2002 - 02:53 pm
Babi your quoting -- "..he considers not what is truly respectable, but what is respected." -- made me think of the Emperior without any clothes. We seem to measure a person now by what what he is wearing don't we - you would have thought we had learned our lesson with the youth during the 60s and 70s but now it is the homeless and for some the immegrant wearing clothes that originated in their homeland that scare us.

I guess that goes along with Yili Lin's asking what the difference is between the civilized man and the savage.

As much as we would like to break down the barriers between all humans I had an experience last fall that is still with me. I have worked with a large group of Chinese Indonesian families - often there is a party or celebration and I am included. I am the only "white" person in the rooms that are often filled with as many as 70 people of which a third are children, all taking in their native language unless they are addressing me. I've had wonderful times and moments, been introduced to foods and their good humor.

One couple who plays host most often, had a baby three years ago. Lily wanted a child so badly and this will probably be their only child. Of course Lily and Andrea dote on this child. Well last fall during a large gathering he was at the table and for the first time caught a real look at me and the fear in his eyes made me want to disappear so that he would not be so freightened. No one saw this fleeting look as he was immediatly surrounded by the other children and his parents and their friends.

This experience made me aware that even the hearts of children are programed to fear what we recognize as different. That we must learn how to accept each other, we must learn that differences are not necessarily something to fear, that we need to accept ourselves as an operating system equiped with fear - that our instinct is toward self-protection and fear is the message that says 'put up your guard,' - that the biggest favor we can do is explain our differences and be aware that we are different from one another in our efforts to accept and bond, equalizing the civilized, the savage, the patched and un-patched among us. That even our concept of 'what is respected' is open to our own values that are not necessarily shared by others. And that for some, the protection of their fear instinct is so great that it affects what they value and further they use their values as a tool to measure others.

Whew, I sound like our insufferable Henry - but I guess I am saying aloud what I had put together after my experience seeing the fear cross the eys of a not yet three year old from a loving but different culture.

Mal - hehehe - looks like some like to read Walden as if reading Macro-economical use of words and concepts and some like to read with a Micro-economic look at his words and concepts - --.

Malryn (Mal)
April 20, 2002 - 03:44 pm
Micro, Macro or Macaroni, Barb, it's fine with me. If this were the first time I'd read Walden, or even the fifth, I might not get as impatient with his long-winded, "speechy" style of writing. For a guy who preached economy, he certainly didn't practice it when he got going with words.

Did you look at the survey map of Walden Pond? If Jonathan ever finds his way down the mountain, he'll be glad to see it. According to that map, the pond is 102 feet deep at its deepest point, a whole lot less than Jonathan thought it was.

Mal

Barbara St. Aubrey
April 20, 2002 - 03:55 pm
Saw the map and what was amazing to me is the shape rather than the depth. Now that channel down the middle reminded me that if this pond were here in Texas that would be what would be left after a summer of hot and for that matter it probably would be completly dry some summers. I am trying to remember how far down Lake Travis drops here during the summer and I think it is over 100 meters - and of course Lake Travis is huge - one of a chain of 6 lakes created by damns built in the 30s. Travis covered whole towns when it was created and folks sail rather large, 30 foot or better size sailboats on it. Now I do know some of that drop is due to letting water run for the farmers down stream each summer. All to say, while trying to picture a reference, I think the pond is similar in size and depth to our tanks which are man made ponds.

Nellie Vrolyk
April 20, 2002 - 05:11 pm
Some words from Economy which captured my attention -without comment.
It appeared to me that for a like reason men remain in their present low and primitive condition; but if they should feel the influence of the spring of springs arousing them, they would of necessity rise to a more ethereal life.


I can't comment on this for while it says something to me, I can't articulate why.

Malryn (Mal)
April 20, 2002 - 05:34 pm
That's nice, Nellie.

This is what struck me today. It's from a February 15, 1843 letter from Thoreau to Emerson. Right now I think I like his letters better than I do the chapter he called Economy.

"As for poetry, I have not remembered to write any for some time; it has quite slipped my mind; but sometimes I think I hear the mutterings of the thunder. Don’t you remember that last summer we heard a low, tremulous sound in the woods and over the hills, and thought it was partridges or rocks, and it proved to be thunder gone down the river? But sometimes it was over Wayland way, and at last burst over our heads. So we ‘ll not despair by reason of the drought. You see, it takes a good many words to supply the place of one deed; a hundred lines to a cobweb, and but one cable to a man-of-war."

Barbara St. Aubrey
April 20, 2002 - 09:56 pm
Beautiful, beautiful Mal - the words just drew us in and toss us from place to place - "mutterings of the thunder...low, tremulous sound in the woods and over the hills, and thought it was partridges or rocks...thunder gone down the river...hundred lines to a cobweb,"

Nellie again words and yet, put together they weave an impression don't they - Spring as hope and the word 'etheral' seems to say something illusive.

What do y'all think - By describing and justified his way to economize did he link the ethical with the greater community or even set the mood exploring his ethics by exemplifing them in the community of nature surrounding the pond?

I thought he did a better job of linking his ethics and his natural community in the chapter called Spring but I need to review the two chapters again to have an opinion so that I can share a phrase or two that says to me he actually made the link.

Malryn (Mal)
April 21, 2002 - 08:34 am
The definition of "ethical" in my computer dictionary is "Being in accordance with the accepted principles of right and wrong that govern the conduct of a profession". The word "ethic" is defined as "A set of principles of right conduct".

How does this relate to Thoreau at Walden Pond? He certainly was not in accordance with the accepted principles of right and wrong, and he didn't care much about professions, did he?

Thoreau's community was very small. Though he had travelled in New England, had visited New York City and spent time on Staten Island, he considered Concord, Massachusetts the world, so I've read. That was a very narrow view, even in those days.

It seems to me that, except for his studies of Nature, Thoreau's enlightenment came through reading, not experience. He surely read history and saw the rise, decline and fall of civilizations; civilizations, which, when they were advanced and enjoyed the benefits of prosperity and wealth were attacked and taken over by conquerors and barbarians. (See Durant's The Story of Civilization and other studies of history.) Like so many others, Thoreau probably translated that fact into the idea that wealth and property make one weak.

In my opinion, having read "A Week on the Concord and Merrimack Rivers", part of his work about the Maine woods, and "Cape Cod", Thoreau is better when talking about Nature and the people who live close to Nature, than he is philosophizing about "Economy".

Mal

YiLi Lin
April 21, 2002 - 09:24 am
It has been hard to take a position with the first chapter- in essence i think the issues T is attempting to address are worthy, but something about the way he goes about generating thinking on the matter of economy of lifestyle sits heavy. perhaps what i am uncomfortable with about T are those inciteful posts by Mal early on. I see after this chapter and our discussion of the chapter a lot of what Mal was talking about not only about T and the transcendentalists as they are depicted in critical essays, but the nature of the New England persona in those days.

So on a good day, I think T is okay, he is talking within the framework of the times and his audience, on a not so good day, i think him rather hollow. I applaud his message but have some problems with his delivery.

BaBi
April 21, 2002 - 01:40 pm
Barbara...just a thought about the 3-yr. old who appeaed frightened when he saw you? Living in such a close community, it may well be that your's may have been the first face the child had ever seen that had differences in color or feature. He may have simply been frightened by the strangeess, and not by any learned prejudice.

I have been enjoying Thoreau, much as Malryn suggested, simply by relaxing and enjoying the flow of words and the bits of dry humor. I enjoyed reading about the building of his house, and the neighbor who pocketed the nails, staples, etc. QUESTION: Can anyone tell me, or offer an educated guess, as to what use Thoreau was making of hair in his construction? ... Babi

Barbara St. Aubrey
April 21, 2002 - 02:46 pm
Yes Babi, that was what I was trying to say - no I do not think at all the little one was reacting with a sense of prejudice - certainly his parents do not seem to show any prejudice - I think he was simply recognizing something different and that brought an instant of fear - and further I see predjudice as simply a reaction to fear - a way to insulate ourselves from what we do not know or understand - as a tool of self-protection. What I was trying to say was that our first instinct is for self-protection and the equailty that Thoreau was suggesting between the work or outcome of work between the 'savage' and 'civilized man' is true but in a world built around protection - essentially protecting ourselves from what we fear - this model of equality that leads to a simple lifestyle would be the outcome of a society that is not fearful of the unknown.

I look at teenagers and for generations now they have been developing their own cultue, vocabulary, music etc. as a way to determine if you are in or out of the group. That to me is not only young adults finding their voice, becoming independent from an adult controlled world but also offering a sense of protection as to who is safe and therefore trustworthy - who is "in" that they do not therefore have to fear.

As to the hair seems to me I read it had something to do with making the morter that was used to chink the logs - I cannot find where I Read it and I could be wrong but that was what I remember.

Yili Lin it does seem that he is outlining his interpretation of how transcendentalism can be expressed in every day life. And you really said a mouthful there didn't you with the delivery of his message. I guess all our individulism was tweaked as we chaffed under all that preaching.

Mal thanks for bringing us a further discription of ethics - Thoreau sure was letting us know wasn't he what behavior he thought was right and what socially accepted behavior he considered wrong - I thought he would have benefited a bit from his natural surroundings that does not seem to be as filled with judgemental rational as his spirit seems to be. We are all so glad you can share the "New England" pithy quotes and understanding of when the man is being humorous. Talk about ships passing in the night - I think for some of us the quips go right by us.

I do want to go back and reveiw for myself the chapter on Spring - I really liked that chapter and I would prefer to leave this first week with his thoughts on Spring in my mind. His thoughts seemed to be more gentle and maybe that was what living in the woods for a year did for his black and white judgement of society.

Barbara St. Aubrey
April 21, 2002 - 03:30 pm
This is a bit long and I hesitated over sharing it - but for me it was an enlightening bit of research and helped me place Henry’s approach to what he values, his ethics and; a relationship Transcendentalism shares with our basic Western Philosophy and for that matter, it ties in the Eastern Philosophy that we know Thoreau was familiar.

Please understand - we all read bringing our own curiosity, interests and experience to the read. -- Some of us love the discription of nature, other's read placing Thoreau's thoughts in a historical time frame and some of us like to examine further his thought pattern.

I think we are all asking what is he saying and 'so what' in light of my world today. And so please, do not use my interests as I read Walden and Thoreau as 'the' example of how we as a group should be reading -- or -- what we should be learning that will affect our understanding and future actions -- We each can bring something different to this read and all of our self-reflections are eagerly listened to - now to my understanding of - 'why' did he write as he did in Economy.

I recently had a letter from my sister who had an article published in a magazine for Women Philosophers. In it she mentions Stoicism and says Tao and Zen are examples of Stoicism - in the past I have heard her refer to our mother as Stoic - Well if you are like me we seem to share the interpretation of the word Stoic as someone who is emotionally cold; with no or little passion in addition; indifferent to obtaining success, wealth, health status etc.

Certainly in this chapter on Economy Thoreau seems to express this very understanding of Stoicism that most of us share and use to interpret the word.

Well - I finally broke down and started to read the other night - this is what I learned - and yes, it appears that not only have we missed it when we use our common deffinition of the word Stoic but also Thoreau is a Stoic and this chapter I think is his efforts to combine his Stoic centered Transcendentalism with his life - Transcendentalism is based in Stoic philosophy and I would have to say that I am a Stoic - but again not in the common definetion of the word -- here is an understanding of Stoicism.

It is a monistic philosophy in which reality is conceived as a unified whole, governed by universal law. The individual is but one part of this cosmic reality. Stoic ethics, was adopted by early pre-Nicaean Christianity and today it is the foundation of all secular types of ethical systems.

Stoic philosophy was founded by Zeno of Citium (ca 334--262 BCE) He followed a path already begun by both Heraclitus and Socrates.

Stoicism developed further by Cleanthes (303--233 BCE), Chrysippus (282-- ca 206 BCE). This philosophy was practiced in everyday life by people like Cicero (106-43 BCE), Epictetus (55-135 CE), Seneca (4 BCE - 65 CE), and Marcus Aurelius (121-180 CE).

Stoics believed that everything that happens, occurs according to Nature and if what occurs is contrary to Nature, it is a specific event that still benefits the whole.
(I think we can more easily see that theory in practice now - since 9/11 the nation has become mor patriotic and many individuals are looking closer and acting on what counts most in their lives - therefore something contrary to nature still benefited the whole)

If we view natural activity as contradictory its because our vision of the event is restrictive. Nature does not will the actions of bad people, it only harmonizes the discord. Therefore, virtue cannot exist without vice. (Wow - this is something that I always believed - that good exists side by side with vice and until we can accept that, we are not fully accepting ourselves, since non of us are pure)

Barbara St. Aubrey
April 21, 2002 - 03:44 pm
Our first natural impluse, e.g. of a child, is directed not towards the outside world, but towards ourself; we become self-aware and develop an "affection" for ourselves - Self-preservation (searching for food, defense against enemies, procreation) would be the only natural thing if humans did not have the faculty of reason.

Our behavior is not purely animal-like, instinctive. A fully rational life involves, according to Cicero, five stages. Only a few people will reach the highest stages, because the process is not independent of our own effort. The goal of man is the attainment of perfection of our nature.
(hehe Thoreau seemed to be as concerned with the attainment of socities perfect nature as his own)

We cannot talk about the "duty" of an animal or of an infant. The term duty is appropriate in stages three-through-five in human development as behavior becomes a function of a ‘rational’ being. (I’m thinking duty here is Ol Imp’s reference to responsibility)

In the third stage, what we are attracted to; select or reject; is the raw material used by our developing reason; which modifies our behavior. Inappropriate acts are defined as the "opposite way." (Sounds like the Tao)

What attracts us and is selected, Stoics list;
honoring one’s parents, brothers and sisters, native land,
taking proper care of one’s health,
sacrificing one’s property etc.
Taking care of our health is unconditionally appropriate, whereas the sacrifice of property is only conditionally appropriate. The range of appropriate actions grows with the development of rationality and includes the impulse for "civic association."

Social principles are the result of our natural impulse toward family and is the starting point for justice. Through this moral development community life and virtue are recognized as high on the list of "things belonging to human nature."

The Stoics claimed that virtue, the sweeping goal of human nature, is basically a system of ethics that measures the morality of actions in terms of happiness and well-being. They claimed that in order to fare well, we need nothing but virtue omitting any need for ‘welfare.’

Aristotle had a more realistic position when he defined eudaimonia as "activity of the soul in accordance with virtue." He recognized that we require an adequate store of welfare/possessions, like health and other "goods." The notion of welfare seems to be logically tied up with notions like profitable, useful, and beneficial.
(Hmmm is this another way of stating Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs?)

For the Stoics, virtue, moral welfare, is profitable to the one expressing or possessing virtue.

Barbara St. Aubrey
April 21, 2002 - 03:50 pm
(OK now we split hairs over using the word “good” versus “preferred” action. )

Example; if our action would prevent the death of someone, the Stoics would admit that a good man would do everything in his power to prevent or avert the disaster. This virtuous act benefits him as well as the man saved and is considered the "preferred" and not "good" action. Good was done by the virtuous man’s efforts to promote another’s welfare. Still more "good" would have come from success.

Life and wealth are "preferred," things like death and disease "rejected." The preferred things are preferred over the rejected ones. But their value is virtually zero whenever they have to be compared with "good" things, such as virtuous action.

Stoic's well-being is "in his power." He cannot depend on achieving results which may not be attained. Nature dictates that a man can and should attain well-being solely through what is in his power. Possessions, like health, are essential to virtue only as the means by which virtue can be exercised and not as something virtue needs for its own sake.

Virtue is the desire of the soul which includes the primary virtues of:
practical wisdom, justice, moderation, and courage.
Each virtue is described in terms of knowledge (as in the Socratic and Platonic tradition) and can be subdivided further. E.g. courage is the knowledge of things which should be endured. It is necessary to know all about each virtue in order to know what is fundamental to virtue as a whole.

Knowledge is grasped by our intellect. We use our senses as a first steps to acquire and arrive at the "knowledge of the good."
(And so Thoreau used his senses, noting nature as a first step in arriving at his knowledge of his virtues)

Stoics believed that the universe operates in an orderly fashion and is intelligible, which means, if we knew all the preceding causes we are able to predict future events. This ordered interweaving of causes and events the Stoics term "fate" (Fate; predetermination, that leads to the acceptance of divination, prophacy, clairvoyance, foretelling).

Since the Stoics considered the laws governing all things including humans, universal, we may question the responsibility of humans for what they do. If all things are directed by fate, and the course of fate cannot be changed, then the faults of men too ought to be considered a result of an unavoidable impulse that comes from fate. (Flip Wilson's, 'the devil made me do it')

Thus, to many, the Stoic 'determinism' may seem to be incompatible with the practice of holding people accountable for their actions. The Stoics, however, did not compromise their stance on determinism in Nature and do not rule out moral responsibility for human conduct. They justify the use of moral and judicial concepts of praise, blame, responsibility and punishment.

Ol Imp
April 21, 2002 - 10:23 pm
I cannot continue - I appreciated the opportunity - I've reflected on my past with enjoyment ; I truly enjoyed reading the inputs- I hope to finish "Walden" later -

Malryn (Mal)
April 22, 2002 - 01:04 am
Barb, you sure lost me in your comparison of stoicism to Thoreau. Stoics believe "human beings should be free from passion and should calmly accept all occurrences as the unavoidable result of divine will or of the natural order." Thoreau was far from passionless, and he did not accept things calmly. It's my opinion that trying to assess what Thoreau had in his mind from reading only Spring and Economy is a wasted exercise. One of Thoreau's major themes in life was "Simplify, simplify". I think one must read the entire book with that in mind before making decisions about it or its author.

Mal

BaBi
April 22, 2002 - 09:32 am
Barbara, thanks for the reponse to the 'hair' question. It had occurred to me that it might have been used in the mortar, since nothing else made sense.

I got my views of stoicism from reading Marcus Aurelius' "Meditations". It made an impression on me, and influenced my outlook on many things. For one...my approach to pain and discomfort.

Malryn, my father was another who was unable to continue his education due to the depression. In fact, he insisted that he leave home and take to the road as a laborer, so that his twin brother could continue in school. But he was a very intelligent man, a great reader, and something of a philosopher. He came to be highly regarded and respected among his neighbors.

On page 43, I found the sort of thing that causes me to forgive Thoreau most anything.:

 "Notwithstanding much cant and hypocrisy - chaff which I find it difficult to separate from my wheat, but for   which I am as sorry as any man - I will breathe freely and stretch myself in this respect........and I am resolved that I will not through humility become the devil's attorney."


I can forgive anyone who recognizes and admits and regrets his shortcomings. I have found myself that a frank, open admission of fault is the quickest, least stressful and most productive response. ...Babi

Malryn (Mal)
April 22, 2002 - 11:39 am
BaBi, what we call stoicism is not, I believe, true Stoicism as propounded by the Greeks. Causal determination is close to fatalism, and I don't think either you or I believe in that. I have had pain nearly all my life and learned to endure it unless it's so extreme that I am truly unable to bear it. There is a degree of acceptance involved in this. Rather than focusing about physical or emotional pain, I admit that it's there, and the pain eases. I have looked at the Meditations of Marcus Aurelius, and find his interpretation to differ from the Greeks. At any rate, I find it hard to relate stoicism to Thoreau's particular type of Transcendental philosophies.

My father was one of nine children. In order to survive, he had to go to work.

Mal

Harold Arnold
April 22, 2002 - 11:47 am
Chapter 2, “Where I lived, And What I Lived For,” in my edition takes the better part of 17 pages. After reading the first several pages I suddenly asked myself, where have I read something like this before? Scanning my memory, I remembered! This chapter in many ways suggested one of the many “Reports From Them That’s Doing” that frequently appeared and reappeared in the late “Mother Earth News” during its glory years between 1970 and 1979. Granted the language was different and it was much longer than the attention span of that zine’s readers leaving little doubt that John Shuttleworth, the founding editor would not have wasted much time with its reading before cramming it into the accompanying stamped envelope with a rejection slip for return to the author.

None the less it is a long report from one that was doing or at any rate thought he was doing and I admit, I got a kick out of reading it. Here are a few comments:

1. Thoreau took his reader through 10 pages more than half way through the chapter before he finally got around to telling us why he moved to the Woods,
I went to the woods because I wished to live deliberately, to front only the essential facts of life, and see if I could not learn and what it had to teach, and not, when I came to die, discover that I had not lived. I did not wish to live what was not life, living is so dear; nor did I wish to practice resignation, unless it was quite necessary. I wanted to live deep and suck out all the marrow of life, to live so sturdily and Spartan-like as to put to rout all that was not life, to cut a broad swath and shave close, to drive live into a corner, and reduce it to its lowest terms, and, and if it proved to be mean, why then to get the whole and genuine meanness of it, and publish its meanness to the world; or if it was sublime, to know by experience, and be able to give a true account of it in my next excursion.


This is a rather detailed explanation of his move into the woods. Though Thoreau denies that this is resignation from life’s responsibilities, I suppose the argument could be made that it was

2. Thoreau remarked, “Life is frittered away by details,” This is a view I can agree with fully. And in an another passage he suggests, “keep your accounts on your thumb nail” I wish I could, but mine such as they are can be found in an XLS file on a 20GB hard drive, a good example of the details of my life..

3. And perhaps deviating a bit from the truth, Thoreau proclaims, “I could easily do without the Post Office.” This led the annotator in my addition to doubt the author’s veracity noting that, ”few residents of Concord frequented the Post Office more punctually or read the news papers (delived to him by the Post Office) (particularly the New York Tribune) more eagerly than Thoreau.”

Barbara St. Aubrey
April 22, 2002 - 12:50 pm
Ol Imp we will miss you - I so admired the way you had of taking a long complicated thought and spitting it back in just a few words with a show stopper example. To me this is such a gift you have and I Think I admire it as much because it takes me 200 words to say what you can in 2 - but most important the lessons you share are eye openers. Thanks for your participation and hope you can join us before we complete reading Walden.

Wow this hit a chord for you Mal - I think what I see isn't the absence of passion or feelings which is unfortunately the current concept of the Stoic but rather, the concept of 'Why me' or 'This should not be' or 'this is un-called for' or 'the most terrible thing to have happened' are all judgment phrases based on our determining what is good and bad. Somehow we are caught into the thinking that by clinging to the concept that some things are bad we can banish them or go through the dance of trying to avoid them.

By avoiding exceptions, in the sense of 'relying on' God to benefit us or for man to remove the bad, we are seeking a reward for our efforts of prayer, sacrifice and belief in man's ability to banish the bad. We are not allowing time to work or we are 'playing God' deciding what will help ourselves and other people to grow.

Also the Stoic sees life as a pattern of nature that we are simply a part of - I see Thoreau comparing for example, his civilized man and the savage as being similar because Thoreau is equalizing the value of their work and therefore, like nature, one bug or flower is no more valuable than the next but rather a part of an interdependent system.

The Stoic is passionate about his own journey rather than about what happens to him as a result of some outside force that he has no control over and has labeled good or bad -- We can do our work - it may be successful and it may not but, to work for success is trying to control other's opinion of the value placed on our work; where as, working for excellence or personal success is where our joy is and it may be recognized or not by others - that was how I interpreted Thoreau's passion about his plans for his economical food, clothing and housing etc. He was justifying his choices and asking society to question the value they place on satisfying these basic needs while being passionate about what he was doing to satisfy these needs for himself.

Mal you certainly have been hit by more than what most of us and myself included would consider a fair share of pain and injustice and you do such remarkable work to keep yourself going. I think what I see though is that; I doubt that you see yourself as having caused the pain in your life either physical or emotional and if God or Doctors could remove the pain you would feel blessed but, since you did not cause it the Stoic would say it was 'Fate' and your daily grappling with what fate handed you is your passion. Any passion ministered to cursing fate or jockeying to be the most successful is wasted energy - the 'good' is tending your spirit and doing your work as best as you can while improving your skills as you go along all the while valuing your fellow man. Bravo!

With both you Mal and Babi having read Marcus Aurelius his writings needs to go on my reading list.

Babi Oh yes, how when someone so eloquently says words like "much cant and hypocrisy - chaff" you really see the humbling and strength of spirit not just asking for forgiveness but stating their understanding of how they have injured. Your statement, "I can forgive anyone who recognizes and admits and regrets his shortcomings." hit a chord with me.

Malryn (Mal)
April 22, 2002 - 01:00 pm
I'm going by the ancient Greek definition of Stoicism, Barb, and I sure ain't no stoic, nor ever have been. My philosophy is in great part based on Unitarianism and the Transcendentalism I grew up with -- like transcend pain. Both are a whole lot simpler and easier than Stoicism. Thoreau "grew up" with Unitarianism and Transcendentalism, too, so that's what I think when I think of him. My opinion is that Thoreau complicates himself enough with his tendency toward wordiness without my trying to complicate him, too.

Mal

Barbara St. Aubrey
April 22, 2002 - 01:04 pm
Whoops you got in here Harold while I was composing my post - yes he is wordy isn't he - but than I can't fault the man since I seem to have the same problem - ah so - but Mother Earth huh - I have to confess that my life was in such a different place during those years - no I wasn't the clucking adult exasperated with 'free' anything - just so busy with youngesters approaching and in their teens that I was hoping to sway them to attend college. Successful with two but the oldest found 'freedom' enticing.

Ah so - his life is still 'free' and like Thoreau never married and lives on the side of a mountain in New Mexico growing God only knows under his orchard of fruit trees - hehe I never saw it before - His New Mexican version of Walden's Pond only he elected to be there for years. But you know I hear from him more often and he engages me in real conversation as compared to my other two concervatives. haha Thoreau and his mother - golly a new picture of my eldest child hahahaha. Thanks Harold for bringing up Mother Earth - it hit chords and I have new pictures in my head.

Barbara St. Aubrey
April 22, 2002 - 01:16 pm
Mal I had not hoped to muddle the waters but as I say we all bring to a read our own interests and experiences - it is easier for me to see Transcendentalism and Thoreau through the eyes of Stoicism since Stoicims is so close to both Zen and Dao. Having been a student of The Book of Change especially Ta Chuan and Hsi Tz'u Chuan and Shuo Kua I can compare thoughts easier through Stoicism since the Dao has so many philophical similarities.

Malryn (Mal)
April 22, 2002 - 01:52 pm
I see, Barb. I have the advantage of knowing Transcendentalism practically since I was a kid. Hard to understand, though, why you don't try to understand Transcendentalism through Transcendentalism. Emerson's essay, Nature, and some of Channing's writing explain it very well. It's not all that complicated, really. Have you been to a Unitarianism site? That would help, too.

Follow the link, Barb, and read this short page. It will help you understand Transcendentalism.

Universalist-Unitarian Principles

Mal

Barbara St. Aubrey
April 22, 2002 - 02:23 pm
Mal my daughter has been a Unitarian now for as long as I have been studying the Dao - I have read these sites and as I say we all bring a screen of our past with us when we try to learn or understand anything -

Having studied and taught classes in how 'Adults Learn Best' the system of learning is that we compare the new information to something we already know. And so - you may compare Thoreau or anything you read through your direct contact with Unitarianism where as I go through this convoluted thought pattern that starts with my education by the Benedictines and the Carmelites that evolved especially along the meditative and contemplative similarities to the study of Dao and a bit of Buddhism, mostly Zen.

It is like if you never have lived in an area where there are Pine trees of Maples you not only label any areas where the Pine and Maple grow as 'Lost' as we have areas called "Lost Maples" and "Lost Pines" - but our frame of reference or picture in our heads of a forest is different until we actually visit a forested area.

Photos and movies may give a picture of a forest but the feel, the sounds and smells do not come to mind when you are reading say a Jack London book - well it is the same with understanding philosophical thought - we all come from our own background and the fun of these discussion for me has always been reading how others understand an author and how what they say bring new thoughts to my mind.

And so where you can share since you have lived in New England some first hand account of so much of what he says, the book has lasted and is a classic because those that have never lived in New England also can relate to an aspect of what Thoreau writes. Those of us not from New England may pick up on other aspects of his thinking and we all interpret his thoughts through our own personal screens developed by just living, our past reading as well as, our education or rather learning.

Now if we are only trying to get inside the head of Thoreau it would be valid to see the book exclusively through the eyes of a Transcendentalist - but we are reading this for self-reflection not only to see the point that Thoreau is making but also, to consider the significance of what he says in light of our world today and our personal lives so that we can continue our journey of integrating our thoughts and feelings.

As the old song goes - you like pot-ay-toes and I like pot-ah-toes but we all like (and now I have forgotten the rest of the words) Therefore, Mal I go throught my convoluted thinking even when I read further about Unitarians or Transcendentalists.

Malryn (Mal)
April 22, 2002 - 02:43 pm

Sorry, Barb. Didn't mean to offend. I've packed up my tent and will now wend my way back to my word processor and the writing of the 22nd chapter of my book. You'll just have to forgive this old Yankee-at-heart, I guess, for her New England ideas. Thanks. I've enjoyed it a lot.

Mal

Barbara St. Aubrey
April 22, 2002 - 02:56 pm
No offence at all Mal - it was great to have someone to discuss differences in how we understand life - as I said we have valued what you can bring since you have lived in New England and the rest of us have not. It is just as I said we all are bringing something to this conversation - I love it --

By the way that color off green you are using on your posts is lucious.

Jeanine A
April 22, 2002 - 03:36 pm
I tired to read Walden about a year ago but Thoreau is so wordy and I got side tracked with other books. Actually, this time I have a reason! I bought the book A Woman's Walden by Ruthe T. Spinnanger. She was an engligh teach who taught Walden to her class. She decided to take year off and try to live her own Walden. She makes references to Thoreau and without having read Walden, the references made no sense.

I don't know how often I will get here. By day I watch my neices 2 daughters while she works and I find with a 1 year old and a 3 year old there is no online time during the day!!

Jeanine

Barbara St. Aubrey
April 22, 2002 - 03:38 pm
Well he may not be getting to the point quickly as Harold pointed out but I am so thoroughly enjoying this first bit -- "At a certain season of our life we are accustomed to consider every spot as the possible site of a house."

This is where I am just now in my life - and I had to chuckle - I have lived in this house since 1966 when it was built. Very convient to "the Village" in that I can simply walk down the long hill and voilá all the shopping in the world except for a department store, clothing store, book store or movie theater. My kids like that I live here since they see me as "old" and probably as 'soon' to be 'responsiblity' which is lessoned for them knowing I can easily take care of my necessaities. This area although, so close to the "Village" is filled with wild life, it is a settled community of homes nicely cared for located on the top of a Mesa near major connecting roads.

But - yes the But - it is not the "Country" - birds aplenty yes, but so are the cars - walks are passed house after house after house. As nice as the xeroscape planting is that many home owners are choosing now, it still is not the "Woods."

I know the practical thing is to stay here but I have always wanted to live near a wooded area where I can get up in the morning and take off or even with a short drive walk in the woods. But realistic I am used to garbage pick-up and the safty of neighbors. Shopping once a week is no problem or even if it were to be once a month. But I do live alone - can I live alone outside of Austin - my very best friend lives only 18 blocks away - living outside Austin would I become too isolated - and than like this chapter opens - all the spots around Austin have possiblities -

I like Bastrop since it is so close to Bastrop State Park but it is noisy since the Highway is so close.

I like the idea of Elgin since it is on the way to my Son's who lives in College Station but it is not that much closer to walking in the woods and Elgin is not a pretty town.

I like Georgetown but it has become as, if not more, expensive to buy and build than Austin.

I like the Lake Buchanan area and Johnson City but that is going west and makes my trips to visit my son and his family longer, with less likely inpromptu visits on either of our parts.

I really like his thought, "'An abode without birds is like a meat without seasoning.' Such was not my abode, for I found myself suddenly neighbor to the birds; not by having imprisoned one, but having caged myself near them."

I love the concept that our home is a cage built in whatever the surroundings we live and just now I am seeing myself caged in an area that is not the woods.

Maybe I should be simply a poet and borrow the woods from time to time -'sucking all the marrow out' by writing and photographing what I see when I visit the woods. Aha but -- "At a certain season of our life we are accustomed to consider every spot as the possible site of a house."

Barbara St. Aubrey
April 22, 2002 - 03:43 pm
WELCOME Jeanine A join us when you can - wow a woman tried living in the woods - now there is a book I need to find "A Woman's Walden" by Ruthe T. Spinnanger - thanks for the tip - sounds like you are far from Walden with those little ones under your care - but oh what memories you must be gathering.

Say why not bring a few of those references from the book to our discussion and let's see if we can dope them out.

Jeanine A - I am smiling - I have a framed calligraphy that says almost exactly what your byline says about buying books.

Jeanine A
April 23, 2002 - 09:13 am
I didn't work today. I feel like someone punched me in the stomach hard enough to knock me down! No other symptoms - thank heavens! But I didn't want to expose the baby so I let my neice call the back up person.

Anyway I decided that wedding soup would taste could so I was off to the store to buy the ingredients as I am driving down the road I started thinking (it's always dangerous when I think - LOL).....

what would we eat if we could not go to the store for a year?

What would we do about christmas? and birthday?

Jeanine

YiLi Lin
April 23, 2002 - 10:07 am
glad you posted the clarifying history of stoicism and 'stoics' i would have taken issue with your sister as stocicism is a philosophy with a western experience and history, not eastern. Perhaps she was applying the definition in light of the natural world and cosmic world to eastern philosophies. thanks for the clarification.

Barbara St. Aubrey
April 23, 2002 - 12:02 pm
Well Jeanine - sorry your not feeling up to par but your thoughts on purchasing food and celabrating holidays - I just remember as a child when the garden and picking fruit was basic to our meals - many a meal I remember as being just corn and melons or beans and tomatoes because they were ready to be picked and the canning - oh the hours of steaming jars filled with stewed tomatoes or what ever and the jams and jellies and apple peach sauce - our home was like a mini food processing plant -

Now for me clebrating the holidays in the woods with some collected branches for decoration and surrounded by wildlife I would think I was in heaven as long as I could also have a large case of books with some of my favorites especially my favorite Christmas books.

I am anxious for this new PBS series to start about folks reliving the 1870 frontier much as they did the 1900 house and life in London. From what Thoreau writes he could walk to the Village although a long walk and we know he visited his mother and so his living off the land and his bean field is by choice rather than as the frontier family where there just was no Village at all.

Yili Lin I think is see similarities in so many philosophies and religions that for me the unity of it all is remarkable. But yes, Stoicism is defininetly a western philosophy.

Lots of information on the internet - some I found to be more grounded in the Greek Stoic where as some seems to interpret it without getting "it" - that there is a difference is what society has determnined is success and if that is not the measure than a stoic must be lacking passion or emotion when those goals are not met or what society has labeled bad is present and the stoic is not outraged. They still do not see the problem is not a lack of passion but rather the definition of what is considered success or what is bad. That societies definition is not based in an acceptance that there is just so much we have control over and that does not include the affect we have on others etc. etc.

Well onward to Thoreau - I am liking these chapters much more - he is not as preachy or maybe I have just come to accept his way of speaking.

Nellie Vrolyk
April 23, 2002 - 03:57 pm
Another bit that caught my eye and held it...
for a man is rich in proportion to the number of things he can afford to let alone.


I'm thinking that I'm very rich because there are many things I can afford to leave alone and have no desire for.

Patrick Bruyere
April 23, 2002 - 04:30 pm
One of my army buddies during WW2 was "Smoky". a Native American from the Mohawk Indian Reservation at Akwasanee on Cornwall Island, on the St. Law. River near my home residence.

Smoky was the reconnoaissance scout for my plattoon and the best example of stoicism I can think of. Even in the most dangerous situations, his face was always impassive and expressionless.

His quiet endurance, and his indifference to danger, pleasure or pain made him an invaluable asset to his platoon.

During army basic traing the recruits would frequently make good natured jokes about, and to each other, about their   racial or ethnic background or accents and method of speaking.

They respected those differences after going through many battles together in Africa. Sicily, Italy and France, and could distinquish the unique qualities that each soldier excelled in, because of their cultural backgrounds.

Smoky was invaluable as a recon scout. point man on patrol, or as part of the Forward Observation Team, because of his keen Indian intuition, knowledge   and discernment.

One of the many jokes the platoon related about Smoky ocurred during the "Battle of the Bulge", when no one knew where the front lines were, and Smoky was sent forward on recon by the Battalion M/Sgt.

According to the Master/ Sgt., General George Patton came riding forward in his jeep. with his fender pennants flying and got out and asked the Sgt. where the front line was.

The Sgt.walked forward with the General a short distance and they came upon Smoky at the cross roads on his stomach with his ear pressed to the ground in the middle of the road.

The Sgt.was very proud of Smoky's abilility so he says to the General, " Sir. do you see that Indian?"

"Yeah," says the General.

"Look," says the Sgt., "He's listening to the ground. He can hear things for miles in any direction."

Just then the Indian stares up at the General and says impassively, "German Command car. green. now about two miles away.It contains two officers, one Captain and one Major with pistols and two soldiers with rifles."

"Incredible!" says the General to the Sgt.. "This Indian knows how far away they are, how many officers,how many soldiers, what color their vehicle is, who is in the car. and their rank and how they are armed, amazing!"

The Indian looks up stoically without any expression on his face and says, "They ran over me about a half hour ago, when I had my ear pressed to the ground, More are coming. Drag me out of the way, and jump in the ditch and duck!"

Pat

Jeanine A
April 23, 2002 - 05:56 pm
Barbara - My parents did not have a garden. At least I don't remember one. But my grandfather did. Oh..what a graden. I use to eat the corn raw. Grandma use to get so mad at Pap for letting me do that. She always said I was going to get sick. Never remember it making me sick, though.

Actually, even now I prefer corn and melons or beans and tomatoes for supper. I am not a meat person.

BaBi
April 24, 2002 - 08:01 am
Patrick, I think I've heard that one before! Your master sgt. borrowed that story, but it's still a good one.

I remember during WWII we had a "Victory" garden. About all I really remember, tho', is cutting up thousands (or so it seemed to me at the time) of potatoes for planting, AND that the neighbor kids swiped and ate our one watermelon! Talk about outrage!! At least my brother and I were outraged; the grown-ups took it much more calmly, which only increased our righteous outrage! Much later we lived next door to an uncle who had grown up on a farm, and he planted a garden every year so long as he was physically able. Irregardless of what Thoreau thought of the hardships of farm life, there are people who would be miserable in any other lifestyle.

One of my favorite meals, by the way, is a seasonal one of fresh black-eyed peas, fresh tomatoes, fried okra, and cornbread. ...Ah, how sweet it is! ...Babi

Harold Arnold
April 24, 2002 - 09:18 am
See my Comments on Chapter 3, "Reading." by clicking Why I Read- Henry David Thoreau.

My coments are in my post as message #18.

Barbara St. Aubrey
April 24, 2002 - 01:07 pm
Well aren't we getting fancy dancy linking posts from one discussion ot another - I love it Harold - and what I loved as much was the response that Mountain Gal has about your post - looks like Thoreau's thoughts on reading bring out opinions from those just hearing the higlights of the chapter.

Oh Pat hehehe you do bring us back - loved your story.

Jeanine one day you just must try your hand and plant yourself some tomatoes - fresh off the vine they are so delicious, they will rival that corn in your memory.

Babi the food of our youth always seemed to taste better didn't it. I'm thinking that it really was better - often fresh of the vine and not covered in some protective spray. Although I must say where the taste isn't always there since things are picked now before they are ripe so that they ripen on the way to market - I do get a kick out of eating foods that have the ingrediants of soil from far flung places, as if I am eating a bit of Mexico or California.

Nellie your post reminds me so much of this pithy statement my mother often made - she explained people as either 'being rich for having money' or 'being poor for lack of money.' Recently said this to my daughter-in-law who looked at me as if I was crazy and I realized she didn't get it - that being rich in experiences, or culture and tradition, or knowledge, or skill especially in music is as, if not more valuable, than being rich in money.

Nellie Vrolyk
April 24, 2002 - 02:47 pm
A thought on Reading: he does seem a wee bit of a snob when it comes to what he thinks is proper reading material. But I know people just like him: people who have you feeling ashamed for reading anything that is not a great classic or an arty type of book that no one really understands. None of those folks are here though.

I read all kinds of books, and I can learn as much from a popular novel as I can from one of the classics. With a good frame of mind you can learn something from any book.

And I read for the sheer joy of it!

Barbara St. Aubrey
April 24, 2002 - 05:12 pm
Here is a quote Nellie that supports your point --
"Tis the good reader that makes the good book...in every book he finds passages which seem confidences or asides hidden from all else and unmistakably meant for his ear." --Ralph Waldo Emerson

Harold Arnold
April 25, 2002 - 10:37 am
This morning I re-read Chapter 4, “Sounds” out in the gazebo near the small water garden pond hearing some of the same sounds Thoreau heard sitting in his sunny doorway from sunrise until noon. Well, I did not make it out at sunrise but carried my breakfast and book there about 8:00 AM. Also I did not stay until noon. Though my South Texas gazebo is much removed from Thoreau’s Massatuches in all four of the known dimensions, my morning was orchestrated much the same as Thoreau’s by singing birds of several types. In my case prominent was the mocking bird, which I understand does not venture so far north as New England, but both of us heard the chirps of the sparrow that seems to be everywhere.

Apparently Thoreau from his cabin doorway had a rather large, big sky, view over the pond from where he could observe bird’s activity over the lake. He also mentioned a mink coming out of the swamp near the cabin to grab a frog and then return to the swamp. My large ¾ acre pond is about 300 feet below the gazebo and water garden, but because of numerous trees there is not much view of the sky from that station. If I want to observe our local hawks and other high flying-birds, I would go the elevated dam that forms the large pond. From there I have a big sky view of the Cottonwood Creek valley with several hawks and cruising turkey buzzards nearly always active.

Other daytime sounds that Thoreau mentions were the bells of the Lincoln, Bedford and Concord Churches on Sunday mornings when the wind was right. I never hear church bells here. The closest church is too far away and for that matter does not have much of a bell tower nor even a conventional bell. Any bell sound coming from there is a rather anemic gong of electronic origin. Thoreau devotes a significant part of this chapter to the railroads and the sounds of passing trains. He speculates quite extensively on their cargos and seems not to have been annoyed by the sound. He tells us he watched for the passing trains and the crewmen knew him and “bowed” to him as he passed. Isn’t “bowed a strange expression? I suppose we would say they waved as the train passed. Railroad sounds are not heard at my place since the nearest railroad is at least 10 miles away.

Though Thoreau says he did not keep a dog or cat or other pets (except apparently chickens) he sometimes heard their sounds from nearby neighbors. I had a dog that adopted me in 1991 and was quite a fixture here until one day last November she failed to make it across the road. I sometimes hear neighborhood dogs also. Thoreau also heard the sound of traffic from the roads. He heard occasionally the sound of wagons and buggies negotiating the nearby roads. In my case, I live on a paved county road with rush hour peaks about 8 AM and again about 5;00 PM. During the off peak periods I suppose there are no more than 8 to 10 vehicles per hour. I never notice their sound in my well insulated house, but outside I hear their swishing sound as they race by. Sometime at night in the open gazebo I can hear the distant sound of 18-wheelers on the state highway 3 miles east of me.

Thoreau saved the night sounds until the end of the chapter. Since he was so very much a dawn to dusk “day” person, I guess it is not surprising that he did not devote as much space to night sounds than the day time ones. He did mention the whippoorwills chanting their vespers and screech owls and hoot owls. He tells of hearing the night baying of dogs and the trump of bulldogs.

Here in South Texas I have been much more impressed by the night sounds than the daytime ones. The sounds of night birds are less significant here although I have sometimes thought certain unidentified sounds might be from that source. During the spring, summer, and into the fall the crocking of frogs from both ponds and the various sound producing vibrations of insect are the dominating sounds until the sudden howls of a coyote hunting pack drowns out all else. Sometimes these sounds come simultaneously from 3 or four directions. They are perhaps more dominating during the winter nights when of course there is no competitions from frogs and insects. Today if Thoreau were to return to his Walden cabin, he too might report hearing the coyote call as this versatile southwest mammal has extended its range even to the New England area.

Patrick Bruyere
April 25, 2002 - 11:35 am
Harold Arnold's #293 post about the night sounds made by the passing trains reminded me about the problems my youngest brother Jack had with the passing train whistles. He wasn"t thinking about Thoreau and Walden's Pond.



My brother, Jack, went to high school and shared sports with his best friend, Joe. After graduation Joe became a steam locomotive engineer for the New York Central Railroad.



Jack married a former high school sweetheart and they moved to an area in the city where the railroad tracks ran near their house.



When friend Joe would take off for NY City everyday at 6.00 AM , with his locomotive pulling a long load of freight and passenger cars, he would blow his train whistle loud and long on purpose when he went by Jack's house, to wake Jack and his wife up.



As Jack and his wife did not have to get up until 8.00 AM to go to work, that left them wide awake in bed together, with 2 hours to spend before they got dressed.



Jack and his wife blame friend Joe's loud train whistle for the fact that they are now the parents of 14 children.



They called the last child "Quits".

BaBi
April 25, 2002 - 01:25 pm
Patrick, I trust they named at least one child after Joe; hopefully, the loudest kid in the bunch, whom they then sent to spend summers with "Uncle Joe". ...lol

I have always found train whistles to be one of the most nostalgic sounds in the world. They make me restless and itcy-footed, longing to be on the train and going somewhere. Of course I travel by plane these days if I travel at all, but I can assure you that the sound of a plane roaring overhead does not produce the same longing as a train whistle. ...Babi

Harold Arnold
April 25, 2002 - 03:29 pm
My father in the 1920's & 30's worked for the S.P. RR in an office capacity and had a pass so as a small child in the 30's after my father was transferred to Houston, we made many of weekend trips to San Antonio by train. During my navy time at the end of WW II I managed about 1/2 dozen crossings to California by train. The last time I traveled a long distance by train was to Washington DC and New York in 1953. There was a couple of quickie commutes between Washington DC and New York and back by Amtrak during the 90's. The train may sound nostalgic to those on the outside, but they are slow and rough riding for those on the inside. I much prefer the smooth whining hum of the 737.

In Thoreau's time train riding was much slower and uncomfortable. Remember in chapter 4 Thoreau boasts that the trains passed Walden at the break-neck speed of 20 miles per hour.

Nellie Vrolyk
April 25, 2002 - 04:18 pm
Sounds. Morning sounds were: the click-whoosh of the furnace next to my little basement bedroom going on; the creaking of the floor above as others in the house wake and move around; soft murmurs of voices; thump thump thump of our little poodle jumping by the back door eager to go out, and the sound of the door opening; the sound of water running.

When I am outside in Summer in the early morning watering my garden, I can hear the trains on the track that is six blocks to the east of me, and the traffic on the nearby main street. And I can hear the chatter of squirrels, the barking of dogs, the cries of the blue jays, the chirping of sparrows, and the song of the robin perched at the top of one of the tall firs next door.

I liked this chapter. It gave me a sense, that though Thoreau lived alone in the woods, he was in no way isolated from the civilized world; for it was there with him in the sounds he heard. (And in other ways as well, but that is not part of this chapter)

Jeanine A
April 25, 2002 - 06:00 pm
Harold Arnold - I did a double take when I scanned the board and saw your name. Harold Arnold is my hubby's name and I thought he was reading my book! An oddity as he does not read much.

Sounds. When I have a morning to sit outside and enjoy the early morning I can hear birds--robins, sparrows, pigeons and the occasional blue jay or cardinal. I can hear dogs, mine and all the neighbors. If I get out early enough I can hear the train about a mile away. It only passed through a couple times a day now. When we first moved out here 22 years ago it passed through several times a day. Sunday morning I can hear a church bell. The church is about a quarter mile from us.

Patrick - post #294. Are you serious? At first read I thought you were telling us a story.

Barbara - we have a mini garden most summers. Love cherry tomatoes off the vine and the bigger tomatoes too, but I think the cherry are my favorite.

I mentioned that as I read Walden, I am also reading "A Woman's Walden." A question between both books....

Thoreau says "as long as possible live free and uncommitted..."

Could Thoreau's advice be followed today?

Harold Arnold
April 26, 2002 - 08:31 am
Interesting Jeanine, you are also "Arnold!" The truth is it is a large family with both English and German roots. Which are you? Mine are German from my great grandfather who immigrated to the US in the 1850's. For pictures of the first and second generations a century ago, click Pictures From Our Past.

There is also a very active rootsweb "Arnold" mailing list. If you are interested E-Mail me for details.

Elizabeth N
April 26, 2002 - 10:53 am
I'm way behind reading the posts, but Patrick, I wish you had been my grandfather--passing on all that sage advice!

Barbara St. Aubrey
April 26, 2002 - 02:24 pm
Hehehe are you so sure that Harold you and Jeanine aren't distant cousins??

Jeanine I am so glad you know the taste of vine grown fresh picked tomatoes - for me they are the best part of summer with a fresh picked peach a close second.

Welcome Elizabeth - since each chapter reads as an essay on its own just jump in here - we are looking forward to your thoughts.

I have been having a ball the last two day looking up on the net all these names that I did not have an intimate knowledge of - great fun - here is some of what I have found:
The Constellation Cassiopeia

The Story of Cassiopeia

The Pleiades star cluster, also known as the Seven Sisters and Messier 45, is a conspicuous object in the night sky with a prominent place in ancient mythology.

Digetal image from Cerro Tololo Observatory of the Open Star Cluster of the Hyades.

the Hyades: In the constellation of Taurus the bull are two famous clusters of stars. The stars in them are, in mythology, sisters. The more famous of the two, is the Pleiades or Seven Sisters; more sparse, and more important astronomically, are the Hyades. The Hyades and the bright star Aldebaran make up the V shaped face of Taurus.

An old Arab story tells of Aldebaran, the Brightest star in Taurus, who was rejected by one of the sisters because he was so poor. He left the sky to pursue his fortune and became wealthy after long and arduous labor.

CONSTELLATIONS - A Brief Introduction includes link to Altair

Chinese star festival celebrates two lovers kept apart by the celestial river, The Milky Way. The lovers are represented by the stars Vega and Altair.

The Girl Weaver and A Peasant one of the famous Chinese legend... One day, the seven daughters of the Taoist God felt that is bore to stay in the heaven. Therefore, they decided to go down to the heaven for a walk. That was a humid day. When the seven ladies got down to the earth, the first thing they saw was a beautiful pond with clear and cool water, with colorful flowers, singing birds, green and lively grass around.

Barbara St. Aubrey
April 26, 2002 - 02:45 pm
I knew next to nothing about Krishna so that when I saw the word Harivamso I had no earthly idea to whom or what Thoreau was referring - boy did I open pandorra's box - and this is only the tip of it all -
Harivamsa, Harivansa (Sanskrit) The lineage of Hari, or Krishna. A celebrated poem of 16,374 verses, generally regarded as a part of the Mahabharata, but believed by some to be of much later date than the greater epic. It treats of the adventures of the family of Krishna, being divided into three parts: an introduction that traces the dynasty; the life and adventures of Krishna; and the conditions occurring during the kali yuga and the future condition of the world.

Krishna krsna (Sanskrit) Black, dark, dark blue; the most celebrated and eighth avatara of Vishnu. Hindus consider him their savior, and he is worshiped as the most popular of their gods. Krishna was born some 5000 years ago, the incarnated human spiritual power that closed the dvapara yuga -- his death in 3102 BC marked the beginning of kali yuga. He was the son of Devaki and the nephew of Kansa, who parallels King Herod.

The life of Krishna bears interesting and occasionally striking similarities to the legends of other spiritual teachers. The lives of all those great spiritual messengers were recorded by initiates in the language of symbol and allegory. Krishna's conception, birth, and childhood are in essentials a prototype of the New Testament story.

One portion of the Mahabharata, the Bhagavad-Gita, contains the teachings given by Krishna to Arjuna as his guide and spiritual instructor, teachings which are the quintessence of the highest yoga. The details of Krishna's life are symbolically given in the Puranas.

Kala (Sanskrit) A small part of anything, especially a 16th part; also a cycle, variously given as 1/900 part of a day -- 1.6 minutes; 1/1800 -- 0.8 minutes; etc. Used for the seven substrata of the elements or dhatus of the human body (flesh, blood, fat, phlegm, urine, bile, semen) there being 3015 kalas or atoms in every one of the six dhatus.

Also any practical mechanical or fine art, 64 being enumerated.

Kala Brahma (Gouri) (Sanskrit) Another name for the god Sabda Brahma, a mystic name for akasa or the astral light, the source of occult sounds and the power of mantras. Sabda Brahma's "vehicle is called Shadja, and the latter is the basic tone in the Hindu musical scale. It is only after . . . passing through the study of preliminary sounds, that a Yogi begins to see Kala Brahma, i.e., perceives things in the Astral Light."

Kala-chakra (Sanskrit) Wheel of time; in Tibetan Dus-Kyi-Khorlo, part of the Kanjur, rewritten by Tsong-kha-pa. Also a synonym for yuga or cycle.

Devaki (Sanskrit) The mother of Krishna. She was shut up in a dungeon by her brother, King Kansa, for fear of the fulfillment of a prophecy that a son of hers would dethrone and kill him. Not-with-standing the strict watch kept, Devaki was overshadowed by Vishnu, the holy spirit, and thus gave birth to that god's avatara, Krishna as the incarnated ray of the Logos.

In later mythology Devaki became the anthropomorphized form of Aditi or cosmic space, just as the Hebrew Mary became a celestial entity. The seven sons of Devaki killed by Karsa before the birth of Krishna symbolize the seven human principles. We must rise above them before reaching the ideal, Krishna, the Christ or the Buddha state, thus centering ourselves in the highest, the seventh or first.

That Pose of Sri Damodara

Barbara St. Aubrey
April 26, 2002 - 02:47 pm
I'll be back later with some thoughts - need to get a listing package to a past client thinking of selling his house -

Nellie Vrolyk
April 26, 2002 - 03:15 pm
Barbara, you provide us with such interesting information. Thank you.

In the piece about the screech owl I wonder what is meant by this phrase? "Their dismal scream is truly Ben Jonsonian."

And the description of the sound of a hooting owl...catches my attention:
Near at hand you could fancy it the most melancholy sound in Nature, as if she meant by this to stereotype and make permanent in her choir the dying moans of a human being...expressive of a mind which has reached the gelatnious, mildewy stage in the mortification of all healthy and courageous thought. It reminded me of ghouls and idiots and insane howlings.

Jeanine A
April 26, 2002 - 05:11 pm
Harold my husbands lineage is both English and German.

Barbara - as I am sure that you learned in your interesting research sanskrit is a rather dead language. There are only a handful of people in the United States that read, speak or teach it. My daughter is a friend of one of the teachers of this language. If my memory would only work with me on this I could recall the women's name. I can tell you she is a professor at the New School University - Eugene Lange School of Social Research - Manhattan. And my daughter is learning the language! Not for college credit just for fun!

SpringCreekFarm
April 26, 2002 - 06:49 pm
I've just been lurking here, Nellie, but I'll make a guess about the phrase you quoted, "Their dismal scream is truly Ben Jonsonian." I believe Ben Jonson was a famous diarist around the time of Thoreau or possibly earlier. I am recalling a book The Life of Boswell which I think was written by Jonson. I've never read it, but perhaps Thoreau is saying that Jonson writes in a loud screamy tone. What do you think? Sue

Barbara St. Aubrey
April 26, 2002 - 10:09 pm
so glad to see you among us Sue -- OK folks look we have Sam and Ben - Sam lived some 200 years after Ben and was the author of the Boswell piece -- now to Ben - seems he was a play write, a poet and a critic - that had been trying new approaches as well as being rather pointed in his use of characteristics of popluar figures in the characters of his plays. And so this screeming owl could be not only his screeming like Paul Revere's Ride about a new approach or it could be that he screemed his abuse on others or some other interpretation. At one point he is jailed -- this is what I found:
Ben Jonson 1572 - 1637 Jonson was in conflict with the authorities and imprisoned resulting from the presumed slander in his collaborative plays The Isle of Dogs (1597) and Eastward Ho! (1604), Jonson was threatened with prosecution by the people he attacked in Poetaster, and the commercial failures of Poetaster and Sejanus.

Ben Jonson

And than this bit about other play writes depicting Johnson in a character. Seems there was a big quarrel between Johnson and Marston who wrote a part for a character called Anaides who was a critic and supposed to duplicate Johnson -- this is what is said:
The Marston play is a plot against Crites, who, they agree to give out, is a plagiary, "all he does is dictated from other men," and "the time and place where he stole it" is known. Anaides is described as one "who will censure or discourse of anything, but as absurdly as you would wish. His fashion is not to take knowledge of him that is beneath him in clothes. He never drinks below the salt." He has a voice like the opening of some justice’s gate or a postboy’s horn, "a great proficient in all the illiberal sciences...He will blaspheme in his shirt. The oaths which he vomits at one supper would maintain a town of garrison in good swearing a twelve month." We hear from him that, in argument with Crites, "because I could not construe an author I quoted at first sight, he went away and laughed at me.” Anaides revenges himself by describing Crites as smelling of "lamp-oil with studying by candle-light."
Now I remember when I was a young women reading a historical novel and learned that sitting below the salt ment that in medieval times the bowl of salt was placed on the table in a specific location and seated below the salt ment you were not highly respected as compared to those seated above the salt.

Nellie you sure handed us a challange with old Ben --

Barbara St. Aubrey
April 26, 2002 - 10:23 pm
I've been cutting Thoreau some slack after reading he goes to Harvard at only age 16 finishes at age 20 and the most significant memorial of his college career is the Latin letter he wrote to his sister Helen, in 1840. It gave him pleasure to use the language of Virgil and Cicero - after he graduates he learns to read the classics in their original language - He translates Æschylus, Pindar, and Anacreon.

Wow come-on now I struggled through Ceasar in second year latin and than those d--- wars. I went to one of these High Schools where 4 years of Latin and 3 of French were required -- I don't think they have those kind of requirements any longer.

And so I see him as a young man trying his wings without the prudence that comes with age which limits the braggadocio ways of youth. His moralizing is simply a young man full of himself announcing his new found values to who ever will listen. Having a couple of boys and 5 grand boys it all sounds too familiar. My Dad can beat your Dad kind of thing or I can beat you to the corner - or - can you imagine anyone not wearing Adida's during training - or - everyone knows Sting or whoever is now popular.

Barbara St. Aubrey
April 26, 2002 - 11:05 pm
Jeanine I had no idea that speaking Sanskrit was so rare - you must be very proud of your daughter as she advances an old dead languge.

Zarathushtra Looking up Zoroaster I can only find Zoroasterism which is started by Zarathushtra

And it appears that Zebulon is one of Jacob's 12 sons that is one of the Lost Tribe - lost in the area of Iran and Afghanistan - can not find anything about Sephronia - with Thoreau's spelling (i.e. Hindoo rather than Hindu) it could be any name or - if it is the love of Zebulon's life, his wife; there appears to be no information on the internet about her.

Does anyone know any more about either Zebulon or Sephronia??

BaBi
April 27, 2002 - 08:11 am
Uh, have I been wrong all these years? Surely it was Boswell who wrote a life of Samuel 'Dictionary' Johnson, not vice versa.

I find myself, perhaps for the first time, regretting my inability to hear the lighter, softer sounds. I have been deaf in one ear since infancy, and if I ever heard the more delicate birdsounds as a child, I don't remember them. But I can hear the doves, and that in itself is enough to make me content. ...Babi

Malryn (Mal)
April 27, 2002 - 09:33 am
Hi, everybody.

BaBi, Boswell wrote the Life of Samuel Johnson, the writer. I'm glad you can hear the doves.

Barbara, it was common in New England in Thoreau's time for Latin and classical Greek to be taught in grammar school and high school. His translating Latin and Greek works does not surprise me. It is what every student was supposed to do. Even when my father and mother and aunts and uncles were in high school in Massachusetts, Latin and Greek were offered, and they had to take classes in one or both. There were old "ponies" of Greek and Latin works kicking around the house when I was growing up. I was not allowed to use them, ha ha.

The year before I entered high school, classical Greek was dropped from the curriculum. I was disappointed. Instead, I took three years of French, two years of Italian and three years of Latin.

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
April 27, 2002 - 10:00 am
The Boston Latin School, a grammar school, was founded in 1635, a year before Harvard College was founded. The Boston Latin School was founded because of the influence of Rev. John Cotton, who wanted to start a school like the Free Grammar School in Boston, England.

In 1734 John Lovell became headmaster. During his tenure, students studied Latin and Greek and the "elementary subjects". Other schools in New England tried to emulate the Boston Latin School, clearly the best grammar school in New England at that time.

Among the pupils were John Hancock, Samuel Adams, Robert Treat Paine, all of Massachusetts. Also at Boston Latin were Benjamin Franklin of Pennsylvania and William Hopper of NC. These men all signed the Declaration of Independence.

The Boston Latin School, now an elementary school, middle school and high school, acceptance only by rigorous examination, is known as one of the best of its kind in the world.

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
April 27, 2002 - 11:52 am
Ben Jonson was a satirist. His forte was satiric comedy, and he failed as a serious dramatist. Could his biting satire be the reason Thoreau said what he did about the owl?

Oh, yes. Jonson and Johnson aren't one and the same. Samuel was Johnson. Ben was Jonson.

Mal

Barbara St. Aubrey
April 27, 2002 - 12:43 pm
Whow thank you Mal - even I messed up the spelling of Ben Jonson's name in an earlier post by inserting the h

I've heard of the Boston Latin and knew that so many of our early national heroic figures attended but I didn't read that Thoreau attended - did he Mal? But in any case he was in Harvard at only age 16 and later, on his own, he did all that Translating - I sure tip my hat off to him - but than latin did not come easy to me - math, especially geomatry, I aced but languages, I could read but wrap my tongue around it - oh dear - I always blamed my German heritage since we talked German at home till WW2 and to this day I get my sentence structure all Katywampus.

Mal was there a particular phrase or thought in these three chapters that especially hit your fancy?

Babi - and so you can hear the doves - wonderful - you know Babi my hearing has never been top notch since a child having all that ear surgery before they knew what they do now - the result, my ear drum is like a piece of rusty flacky tin - not deaf nor are sounds so hushed to be uncomfortable but it sure cuts out some of the unwanted sounds and I am afraid I still use it as I did when I was a kid. When someone is saying something I find particularly uncomfortable I pretend not to hear them. Oh dear manipulative yes - but I saw it as my secret shield.

I must say this man really likes mornings doesn't he - my least favorite time of day - that sun is so bright and harsh - I prefer evening when the sun has an orange rosy cast and I like seeing folks settling down after all the bustle of the day. And than I love the night - many a night I have stayed up till 4: or 5: watching the deer or the moon, taking long walks or sitting on the edge of the mesa across from my house.

Malryn (Mal)
April 27, 2002 - 02:52 pm
Thoreau was born in Concord in 1817. His father moved the family to Chelmsford. That's near Lowell where all those mills were. They moved back to Concord when he was 6. I would assume he went to the grammar school until he was old enough to go to Concord Academy. He was lucky, wasn't he, that he didn't have to go to work at age 8 like so many other children did at that time. From Concord Academy he went on to college. His age on graduation didn't strike me, I guess because when I graduated from college many in my class were 20. The rest of us were 21.

I posted about the Boston Latin School because it was the prototype for all New England schools. I imagine translating ancient Greek and Latin authors wasn't easy, but Thoreau had early training right up through college and the skill to do it.

What phrase do I think of? Well, of course, there's "I went to the woods because I wanted to live deliberately", but what I always think of when I think of Thoreau is "Simplify, simplify".

Mal

Nellie Vrolyk
April 27, 2002 - 07:23 pm
Was Thoreau only 28 when he began his sojourn at Walden Pond? He sounds so much older to me in his writing. But that confidence of youth does shine through and that desire that intelligent youth has to make the world a better place for all people. I know I dreamed of doing such a thing when I was young -and still do at times.

Malryn (Mal)
April 27, 2002 - 08:27 pm

We have to remember that the average lifespan for Americans in 1850 was 47. If a male lived to be 20, he had a chance to live to be 60. Thoreau was past 20, so at 28 he had already lived just about half of his projected age. As it turned out, he had lived more than that. Looking at it that way, 28 doesn't seem so young, after all.

Mal

BaBi
April 28, 2002 - 12:51 pm
I understand you, Barbara. I had forgotten how noisy the world was when I got my first hearing aid. I frequently leave it off, esp. when I'm alone, so I can enjoy the quiet.

Both Latin and Greek had been dropped when I started high school. The only second language being offered was Spanish, presumably because Mexico was the closest foreign country and was likely to be the most useful to us. But like Barbara, I can read it much better than I can speak it, and cannot at all understand it spoken by a native of the language. Of course, here again, the hearing loss doesn't help at all. Still, if I had an opportunity to travel to countries speaking other languages, I would at least learn some basics. (Please, where is the ladies room?) ...Babi

Barbara St. Aubrey
April 28, 2002 - 01:13 pm
Nellie I know what you mean when you say he sounds older - I Think the education for those that could go on past the first few grades was more focused on language and literature as compared to today where the Sciences and Math hold sway. I have a few readers from the 1860s and 70s - it is amazing to me the level of reading and spelling in these early 3rd and 4th grade readers. The stories are not only sophistocated as campared to today's stories but they are mostly morality stories or stories of behavior changes that once adapted are picked-up by others in the family or community. Here is an especially poignant lesson in a third grade reader
be-longed', was a part of.
cor'po-ral, an officer next below a sergeant.
cond-di'tion(-dish'un), state.
sur'geon (-jun), a doctor who
sets broken limbs, cures wounds, & c.
sus-pend'ers, gallowses.
cav'al-ry, a body of soldiers who serve on horseback.
LITTLE EDDIE, THE DRUMMER, CONCLUDED.
1. Eddie, as he was called, was now the drummer
of the company. All the men became very fond of him. When they got any watermelons, or peaches, on their march, he was always served first. He and the great, stout fifer became warm friends. When they had to cross a stream, the fifer would take little Eddie on his back, and so carry him over.
2. The company to which our little drummer belonged
was in the battle of Wilson's Creek, in which the brave General Lyon fell. The next morning little Eddie was not to be seen, but from a distance, in the woods, the sound of his drum was heard.
3. A corporal of the company went out to look for him,
and found him seated on the ground, his back leaning against the trunk of a fallen tree, while his drum hung upon a bush in from of him, reaching nearly to the ground.
4. As soon as he saw his friend he dropped his drumsticks,
and exclaimed, "O, corporal, I am so glad to see you! Give me a drink of water." The corporal turned to bring him some water froma brook that was near by, when Eddie, Thinking that he was going to leave him, began to cry, saying. "Don't leave me, corporal; I can't walk." Poor little Eddie! both his feet had been carried away by a cruel cannon ball.
This continues for 8 sections that include the explanation that a fallen rebel soldier lying near by had seen the boy's condition and crawled to take off his suspenders made of deerskin and tied then tightly around Eddie's legs, below the knee - this is followed by how kind the man was and how we should not be fighting -

This story finishes up in true Victorian fashion with the the sound of horses and although the officer is kind-hearted and takes Eddie onto his own horse
"when they had reached their camp, little Eddie was dead."
Today even the word "dead" would be questioned as appropriate for a 3rd grader to be reading about - but catch the level of reading -- and evidently the word suspenders had to be explained but as gallowses - have any of you ever heard of suspenders called gallowses?

Mal The
"simplicity, simplicity, simplicity! I say, let your affairs be as two or three, and not a hundred or a thousand; instead of a million count half-a-dozen, and keep your accounts on your thumb-nail."
sure has been the word of the last few years hasn't it - I've seen more books about simplifying our lives and now I have even seen a monthly magazine about living the simplified life.

Sometimes things just happen - and Mal when you shared how Greek was traditionally taught this all fell in place - I was looking for a text in my bookcase and picked up a Penguin copy of Greek Verse. Flipping through the opening chapter for Hesiod is #23 Pandora the opening sentence translated into English --
"For the gods keep hidden from men the means of livelihood. Otherwise, working even for one day only you would easily make enought to provide you for a whole year without working; soon you would put aside the rudder [of your ship] over the smoke [of your hearth], and the work of the oxen and the sturdy mules would disappear."


As they say, 'there is nothing new under the sun' and if our Henry studied Greek, I wonder if he read Hesiod with this above bit helping him further his idea on the value of work and to put into words this thinking on the value of work.

Well this afternoon I am glad I have an electricly cooled house to retreat to - we are in the 90s today! Now if I was out on the lakes it may be a different story. But Summer is definatly here! We probably won't see the thermometer in the 80s again till October. Hehehe maybe I need a "Nilometer" to watch and alert me when the first Norther is approaching that will cool us down.

By the way these three chapters were three of the ten included in the annotations that may be clicked on in the heading - after all my research even found Zebulon and Sephronia which were popular names used in many novel at the time.

Barbara St. Aubrey
April 28, 2002 - 01:28 pm
Oh Babi talk about Spanish being important for some mother to instill in their children - I have a good friend who when her little one was about 2 and half she was saying "no more Spanish, mom." The family is not of Spanish heritage but her Dad, a well respected Doctor in town, knew the value of speaking Spanish living in this part of the country. Well, rather than fight over it with her daughter Leslie simply picked up and took her daughter off to Mexico for two months where she could not function without speaking Spanish. I love it -

When I shared that story with my daughter, who was at the time 37 having her first baby - she had finally desided to get her degree - 160 hours and no degree - she was doing the required 36 hours and had to take Spanish - well 3 months pregnant - an older mom having her first baby - and so she also picks up and went on down to the University at Monterey - the University has a coop relationship with Southwest Texas in San Marcos. She stayed the 8 weeks and finished up her Spanish requirement - she packed all these canned juices and only used bottled water.

Malryn (Mal)
April 29, 2002 - 08:04 am
The term I heard most often in New England was "galluses", a variant of "gallowses". Trousers suspended from an elastic contraption that hangs from the shoulders.

Solitude. In the past few months I have lived a life of solitude, interrupted only by a half to three quarter hour visit in the evening by my daughter, who lives in the country house to which this small apartment is attached. The apartment is separated from that house by a large, rarely used studio, so it's not possible to hear the sound of voices in the main house. This house is more or less isolated, and there are only a few rare people who venture up the long driveway in the course of month. I can't see the street from here or the infrequent automobile which might go by at the foot of the long hill. Since I don't get out of the house much any more, my biggest social outlet is through the computer.

Thoreau says:

"It is as much Asia or Africa as New England. I have, as it were, my own sun and moon and stars,and a little world all to myself."

That's exactly how it is. Being alone does not mean being lonesome. With my daughter and her partner in Maryland for the past four days, "my serenity is rippled but not ruffled", mostly because I'm in a wheelchair a good part of the time, and can't take the risk of standing on my feet and falling when no one is around.

It takes strength and self-discipline to live in an isolated place with little or no human companionship, no matter how beautiful the place is. As for me, well, I keep my mind very occupied with building web pages for the electronic magazines I edit and publish, reading - both on and offline, and writing and editing for myself and others, and thinking. I'm sure Thoreau's mind was focused on several different things, too, and when he got the itch, he walked into town.

Thoreau said:

"I believe that men are generally still a little afraid of the dark."

To me that implies fear of the unknown. Not imagining or anticipating the unknown is what keeps solitary people stable, I believe.

In this chapter called Solitude, Thoreau once again reveals his knowledge of the Vedas and classical Greek and Latin literature. It's a poetic chapter, in my opinion, in which he does not indulge in a great deal of sermonizing, a sometimes long-winded habit he and Emerson and other Transcendentalists had in common.

Mal

Barbara St. Aubrey
April 29, 2002 - 10:06 am
Mal don't you find it interesting how many folks do not like solitude - there are so many poems written about solitude and I wonder if this famous 19th century poem by the prolific Ella Wheeler has something to do with the concept that solitude is a problem to be indured.
Solitude


Laugh, and the world laughs with you;
Weep, and you weep alone,
For the sad old earth must borrow its mirth,
But has trouble enough of its own.
Sing, and the hills will answer;
Sigh, it is lost on the air,
The echoes bound to a joyful sound,
But shrink from voicing care.

Rejoice, and men will seek you;
Grieve, and they turn and go.
They want full measure of all your pleasure,
But they do not need your woe.
Be glad, and your friends are many;
Be sad, and you lose them all,--
There are none to decline your nectar'd wine,
But alone you must drink life's gall.

Feast, and your halls are crowded
Fast, and the world goes by.
Succeed and give, and it helps you live,
But no man can help you die.
There is room in the halls of pleasure
For a large and lordly train,
But one by one we must all file on
Through the narrow aisles of pain.

Poems of Passion. by Ella Wheeler. Chicago: Belford, Clarke & Co, 1883.



Now this one I find so much more meaningful - What do you think?
FROM LONELINESS TO SOLITUDE

We enter the world alone.
We leave the world alone.
We stand before God alone.
Aloneness is a universal human experience.
There is great value in standing alone.
Being aware of aloneness
And not loneliness, (which is negative)
Is a state not many of us achieve.
We fear being alone with ourselves.
We try to fill that void (avoid the void)
With distractions, people, noise, etc.
We fear the quiet path leading to our inner selves,
And the dark side of our hearts.
But, it is in such solitude that we discover
Our inner riches and strengths,
And discover too, the real person God has created.
In solitude we can find our true connection to God.
The desert is an image of solitude.
Many go there to seek peace and joy.
Our hearts are receptacles during these peaceful times
And nature can provide the space to be present with ourselves.
Other settings for the introduction of solitude
Are sunrises, sunsets, oceans, rainbows, etc.
As the flower blooms in the silent desert,
So may our hearts bloom in peaceful solitude.

-- poem by Ann Winter from her booklet "Friends for all Reasons"



But my all time favorites are - William Wordsworth's
I WANDERED lonely as a cloud
That floats on high o'er vales and hills,
When all at once I saw a crowd,
A host, of golden daffodils;...
And John Keats O Solitude! if I must with thee dwell

Malryn (Mal)
April 29, 2002 - 12:25 pm

I can't romanticize solitude the way Ella Wheeler and Ann Winter do. I don't think Wordsworth really was really talking about solitude. The Keats poem is okay.

Solitude can be the pits if it's the only diet you have. Even Thoreau didn't tolerate that sort of menu.

The last thing I do is look within, having spent years doing that and solving nothing. I look Without.

Luckily, this little space of mine has sliding glass doors to a deck where there are flowering plants and a holly tree growing through a hole specially made for it in the deck with a view of the woods beyond the garden and the gravel parking area. Above those doors is a very large triangular window. I can see the sky and the tops of 150 foot tall trees and eagles when they fly over from Jordan Lake. The wall on the right has two large, tall double windows overlooking my hill of ivy and the magnolias and other trees beyond.

My little world is full of light and air, not deep, dark introspection that only pulls me down.

Mal

BaBi
April 29, 2002 - 03:25 pm
Mal,your little world sounds lovely. Light is so important to our sense of wll-being, isn't it? It brings out all the color of the the world.

Barbara, I preferred Ms. Winter's thoughts on the subject, and found them to closely echo Thoreau's. I have always smiled on reading Cowper's lines:
"How sweet, how passing sweet, is solitude!   
                      But grant me still a friend in my retreat,  
                      Whom I may whisper, 'Solitude is sweet'.


As to companionship vs. solitude, Thoreau spoke truly when he said. "I have found that no exertion of the legs can bring two minds much closer to one another." Far better solitude than two un-like minds trying to live together. ...Babi

Jonathan
April 30, 2002 - 11:54 am
I see a lot of humor, as well as the fine poetry, in the way Thoreau solves the problem of solitude and loneliness. And the solution is really breath-takingly simple. He declares himself part of nature. Working out the consequences of that belief is exhilarating, as his thoughts and imaginings make evident. And then, for another cosmic sensation, he places himself entirely outside nature, and even himself...that 'misanthrope and most melancholy man'. You didn't think he meant someone else with that did you? Take leave of your senses, or at least still them, this young man tells us, and nothing can touch you. A quiet giving-in to nature, reveals that nature in a new form, in which everything, but everything, works for ultimate good. And we're, practically, back in the Garden of Eden, after having been ejected and kept out, not, as in the old dispensation, because of our sinful nature, but because we baited our fish-hooks with darkness, namely, misanthropy and melancholy, making us strangers in our own house. Never mind that his ruminations lack logic and consistency at times. The vision and feeling of comfort are extraordinary.

As for the humor. Is this the young man who insisted at first that an older generation could not or would not teach him anything. What cheerful company those ancients become for him in the long winter evenings. Granted, they do seem a little unreal, with one being an 'old settler', the digger himself of Walden Pond, and now 'thought to be dead' by everyone but Thoreau. And what could be more life-like than the 'ruddy and lusty old dame', with her odorous herb garden, who knows the facts behind every old fable!!!

Having seen how he turned Walden Pond into metaphor, why shouldn't we, by the same token, conclude that our philosopher-poet has just introduced us to old Father Time and Mother Nature in a most interesting way, with more than enough poetic evidence.

I've saved the last uncomfortable laugh for what Thoreau makes of the fact that we are all 'still a little afraid of the dark'. And did we really think that by burning the witches, hiding behind the shield of our christian beliefs, and lighting ritual candles, we could escape the things that go bump in the night? What fools we be.

Jonathan

YiLi Lin
April 30, 2002 - 12:49 pm
aahhh living free and uncomitted for as long as possible- yep, uncomitted, to me, does not mean not caring or living without a purpose, but rather accepting the overall challenge of life- truly leaving each day. taking his thoughts out of the context of what my be interpreted as leisure in a Walden, and applying them to choosing a way to live in our modern world, i think keeping our bodies and mind free certainly suggests we can find adventure and possibility even in the sounds of the morning or evening.

Nellie Vrolyk
April 30, 2002 - 04:36 pm
I like this bit from Visitors:
One inconvenience I sometimes experienced in so small a house, the difficulty of getting to a sufficient distance from my guest when we began to utter the big thoughts in big words. You want room for your thoughts to get into sailing trim and run a course or two before they make their port. The bullet of your thought must have overcome its lateral and ricochet motion and fallen into its last and steady course before it reaches the ear of the hearer, else it may plow out again through the side of his head.


To me there is something rather amusing about picturing thoughts as bullets and shooting out again through the listener's head. But at the same time I think he has it right on, because there are times when I talk to someone and it does seem as what I say is going right through their head and going out the other side. This is just my take on this piece and I realize it may not be what Thoreau was saying at all.

And also this piece:
If we would enjoy the most intimate society with that in each of us that is without, or above, being spoken to, we must not only be silent, but commonly so far apart bodily that we cannot possibly hear each other's voice in any case.


Personal opinion again: I love being with someone and each of us being totally silent and having no need to break the companionable silence with words. But you only get that kind of intimacy by being near each other, and not by being so far apart that you cannot hear each other. So I tend to disagree with the last phrase. Of course, I may be missing some of Thoreau's subtle humour again.

When I make comments on what Thoreau has written, I'm not attempting to explain what I think he meant; I am just saying how those words affect me, how they make me feel, what those words mean to me.

Barbara St. Aubrey
April 30, 2002 - 07:20 pm
OH my - I should have a few more busy days if the results are such wonderful posts - What a treat your thoughts are tonight -

Welcome back Jonathan I love your thought
"but because we baited our fish-hooks with darkness, namely, misanthropy and melancholy, making us strangers in our own house."
Oh boy does that thought hit a chord with me - I had not picked that up as I read and I am so glad you shared - my thinking was to - how appropriate it is that Solitude came after Sounds - the arrangement of the chapters - Reading; filling the head with a busy process and then slowing down as he listened to the sounds of nature which then led to his ruminating about solutude which I saw as his time of meditation - yes, at times he seemed to be back in his head justifying his choice toward solitued but sentences like:
"I only know myself as a human entity; the scene, so to speak, of thoughts and affections; and am sensible of a certain doubleness by which I can stand as remote from myself as from another. However intense my experience, I am conscious of the presence and criticism of a part of me, which, as if were, is not a part of me, but spectator, sharing no experience, but taking note of it; and that is no more I than it is you."
are sentences that say he really experienced a time of suspending himself in all the cosmos.

And Welcome again Yili Lin a gal after my own heart - to read to better our todays - lots of food for that concept here isn't there. What a challange to find leasure in our mind so that we may have our own Walden.

Nellie That was an interesting observations wasn't it about big thoughts needing room - the other one that I thought was interesting was about the feeding of guests - I bet the socially correct thing of the day was to provide food for a visiting guest - I remember while growing up it was the polite thing to bring some food with you when you visited others - either a cake or some jam from the back porch or some tomatoes from the garden and today if you are invited to dinner folks still bring a bottle of wine or flowers but that is the other way around than the host providing food.

Back to the concept of ideas needing room - I wonder if that is a ploy that was figured out by some - that in order not to hear or be affected by someone's thoughts, sit close - hmm I wonder have you noticed how most of the coverage of discussions between those from the Middle East seem to take place with attendees sitting far from one another usually on comfortable overstuffed chairs - hmmm I wonder if they have retained the better way to contemplate serious thoughts.

And yes Nellie - I think all any of us can do is share from our own hearts and minds - as the saying goes - others can "take what they will and leave the rest." So glad you are among us - I am still thrilled reading this book are you?

Barbara St. Aubrey
April 30, 2002 - 08:14 pm
Mal your view of the natural world around you with a Lake an all sounds like you are living your own version of Walden's Pond. Have you ever thought to start a nature journal keeping track of changes and peoms that your view bring to mind and maybe even a few sketches or photos of the same tree taken as the seasons change - in fact talking to you about a nature journal has me drooling about doing it in an area near the creek where I often walk.

Babi Thanks for sharing
Whom I may whisper, 'Solitude is sweet'.
now I must look up Cowper - the name is new to me.

Malryn (Mal)
April 30, 2002 - 08:39 pm
"Sounding the depths of the Walden Pond of our natures?" Jonathan, what kind of rarefied stuff were you sniffing at the top of that mountain you climbed while you were away? May I suggest that next time you keep your feet on lower ground and get acquainted with some nags at Nags Head; have a tete a tete with a tasty Georgia Peach and smell the camellias at a plantation in Charleston. The door is always open if you ever do go South and decide to drop by, only I tell you I'll never plumb the deep waters of my Walden Pond nature when you're around.

I loved this chapter of Walden. Thoreau sounds in such good humor. The time he spent with the Canadian woodsman was written so well. Here is a natural man who spends his time in Nature, a man who is very impressed by preachers and writers, a perfect audience for Thoreau, the intellectual, unlikely and unnatural naturalist, the "biped without feathers" who lived primarily in his mind.

Thoreau says about the woodsman when it came to writing his thoughts: "...but he could not tell what to put first, it would kill him, and then there was spelling to be attended to at the same time!" Here was a man of the woods whose only books were an almanac and an arithmetic face to face with an odd little man who spouted off Latin and Greek. When I was a kid, the Old Farmer's Almanac gave me hours and hours of enjoyment. It was different from what it is today and taught me a lot.

Then Thoreau meets a man who tells him he's "deficient in intellect". Of him, Thoreau says he was a "metaphysical puzzle". Poor complicated Thoreau.

Imagine having visitors like Mrs. Blank. "How came Mrs.--- to know that my sheets were not as clean as hers?"

Thoreau was more comfortable yelling across the pond to someone than he was in a room full of people, some of whom didn't know when the visit was over. He rustled up a Hasty Pudding, he says. In the annotated online version of this book I found, it describes a Hasty Pudding as one made from cornmeal. I wonder if it was Indian Pudding?

The Indian Pudding I knew as a child was made from yellow cornmeal, molasses, eggs and milk and baked a long time in a slow oven. Delicious with a glass of milk. It could well be what Thoreau made.

Mal

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 1, 2002 - 12:19 am
Mal he does live in his head a lot doesn’t he - and the description of the Canadian woodcutter was great - I could visualize him couldn’t you - Thoreau seems almost scientific especially when he shares his recognition of differences - is that what a naturalist is a scientist - I guess I think of a naturalist as more of a notic’er of the obvious in nature but I guess someone must measure and watch the intricacies that govern the natural world.

And yes, can you ever imagine someone visiting who judges how clean your sheets are - oh my.

OK found some information about the Hasty Pudding - it appears in American it was made with corn flour and therefore called 'Indian pudding' by some -
  1. Basic Hasty Pudding
  2. Everything you ever wanted to know about Hasty and Indian Pudding
  3. And here is one I just had to include that calls for, would you believe, the addition of three pounds of cole slaw
  4. "Although the first recipes for Indian Pudding did not appear in print prior to 1796, we know that Americans had been eating it for about 150 years before that time. The Dictionary of Americanisms (Chicago, 1951) records the first printed usage of the words"Indian Pudding"to be in the March 17-26, 1722, edition of The New England Courant, the third newspaper printed in Boston and the fourth in the British colonies."

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 1, 2002 - 12:47 am
Well have I had a journey - the inclusion of Goffe or Whalley sent me on a research venture - Had no idea that hiding in the Connecticut River Valley were two of the judges that killed King Charles I - well here are the links - quite an interesting bit of history.
I could find nothing about a Thomas Parr of England who presumably was supposed to have lived 152 years. - All I could find was the father of Catherine Parr, one of Henry the VIII wives.

According to the annotations some of the first part of his chapter Solitude includes phrases from Elegy in a Country Churchyard by Thomas Gray. Here is another site with the poem that shows that Thomas Gray was influenced by Hamlet - Paradise Lost - and Pope's Messiah Thoreau was flying in tune with a great line of literary figues wasn't he?

And with this quote we have Thoreau alluding to the Lowell Mill Girls that Mal clued us into during pre-discussion.
"Consider the girls in a factory, -- never alone, hardly in their dreams. It would be better if there were but one inhabitant to a square mile, as where I live. The value of a man is not in his skin, that we should touch him."

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 1, 2002 - 01:05 am
And here was where I had real fun - I want an Æolian Harp - I want a harp for my window sill
Æolus was the Greek god of the winds. Æolian harp, a stringed instrument placed in an open window and vibrated by the winds. His own harp is in the Concord Antiquarian Society.
Interesting man - with all his stripped down economy he still had a musical instrument hanging in his window.

Malryn (Mal)
May 1, 2002 - 06:29 am
That's a very pretty midi of the Arabesque #1 by Debussy, Barb, but it is not the sound of an Aeolian harp. Below you'll find a link to a page which has a link to a WAV file of the sound of an Aeolian harp. Scroll down below the banner which says "Click Here to Participate". You'll see a link which says "The Sound of an Aeolian Harp".

To the Aeolian harp link

Malryn (Mal)
May 1, 2002 - 06:39 am
The recipe for Hasty Pudding with cole slaw is such a big joke. Perhaps what Thoreau made was simple corn meal mush. We used to eat corn meal much for breakfast when I was growing up. If you pour the cooked mush in a tin vegetable can and let it cool in the refrigerator until hard; then take it out of the can and slice it and fry it either in bacon grease or butter, you'll have a very fine treat. Some people like fried corn meal mush with maple syrup on it.

Did you ever eat Indian pudding? Made as I described in a previous post, it really is delicious. Some people serve it with vanilla ice cream on top.

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
May 1, 2002 - 06:53 am
Here's a recipe from the Plimoth Plantation site for Furmenty, a pudding served at the First Thanksgiving feast. Remember that the pilgrims called corn "wheat".





Furmenty

Ingredients

1 cup cracked wheat
1/8 tsp. ground mace
1 quart milk
1/2 tsp. ground cinnamon
3/4 cup milk
1/4 cup brown sugar
1/2 cup heavy cream
2 egg yolks
1/2 tsp. salt
additional brown sugar


Directions



In a large pot, bring the water to a boil and add the wheat. Lower heat to simmer, cover, and continue to cook for 1/2 hour, or until, soft. Drain off all the water and add the milk, cream, salt, mace, cinnamon and sugar. Continue to simmer, stirrng occasionally, until most of the liquid is absorbed(20 to 30 minutes). In a small bowl, beat the egg yolks and slowly stir 1/2 cup of the wheat mixture into the yolks. Then stir the yolk mixture into the pot, and continue cooking for another 5 minutes, stirring frequently. Serve sprinkled with brown sugar.

BaBi
May 1, 2002 - 09:08 am
Curiouser and curiouser. My own impression of Hasty Pudding was that it was quicker than the slow-baked Indian pudding Mal describes, and the recipe that Barbara found called for baking only 30 minutes. And we know that it is a very thick pudding from Yankee Doodle Dandy; ie., "and there we met some men and boys as thick as Hasty pudding". The two puddings are probably similar, with one being a quicker version.

I have never heard an Aeolian harp, which I have also heard called a "wind harp" but I have an idea of the sounds the wind can produce on a larger scale, whistling around my house and through the trees. It ranges from eerie to magnificent!

Barbara, you are a researcher par excellence! You leave no stone unturned,which adds immeasurably to our understanding of Thoreau's references. Thank you for your diligence. ...Babi

Malryn (Mal)
May 1, 2002 - 12:44 pm
All I could think when I started reading this chapter was why did this Pythagorean plant so many beans? Oh. He sold them or traded them for rice. Who had a rice paddy in Concord? That's a joke. My grandfather planted a much smaller area with Kentuky Wonders and Lowe's Champions, and we had beans coming out of our ears. We never sold or traded them. We ate them and canned them for the winter.

Why did he plant bush beans which are so susceptible to damage by animals, I wonder?

Thoreau wanted to plant the "seeds of sincerity, truth, simplicity, faith and innocence." I suppose the only way he could do that at Walden Pond was through his writing.

What were all the music and parades about? Perhaps he was talking about Memorial Day and the Fourth of July the second year he was there.

At any rate, Thoreau made sure he had his work cut out for him. Never in my life have I heard of a New England farmer working in the garden barefooted, though.

How did he get those bushel baskets in to town? Hire a wagon?

I was surprised that so much land was cleared and enjoyed Thoreau's description of digging up history, but this chapter did not please me as much as the previous one did.

Mal

Jonathan
May 1, 2002 - 02:58 pm
What's all this talk about food? You're very welcome; but don't expect to get anything to eat at Walden Pond. It's stricltly BYO. A drink? Here's the 'dipper'.

Jonathan

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 1, 2002 - 03:23 pm
Hehehe yes Jonathan YES!

Babi Oh I forgot all about Yankee Doodle Dandy Great! And thanks for the Kado's but you must understand I am still that kid that drove the teachers and especially my mother wild with 'How come' and 'what or who was she or he' - especially having a father who as we walked could tell you everything and more about the building of and the people in every house or building and what happened in every field and the name of every tree. My poor mother couldn't compete and so I desided at the ripe age of 5 hehehe that she just wasn't as smart as Dad and therefore I had to ask whoever and read everything to find out. I am still asking what and who and how and when and where!

Mal Thanks for the music link - Great - I must get into the Bean field tonight - got behind here a bit - sorry.

Think surprise May Baskets folks - This didn't seem to be a Thoreau thing - now he could have brighened the day of his woodsmen and honored mother nature with a basket of wildflowers next to his 'wind harp' - but alas no word that he carried out such a tradition - but remember fixing up some handmade woven paper baskets with some flowers or bits of sod and imerging seeds and hanging them on the door handle of our neighbor's front doors. No one seems to do it any longer - here is my May Basket to y'all.

A May Basket for You

Nellie Vrolyk
May 1, 2002 - 04:53 pm
Barbara, what a lovely May basket!

Maybe you need to be at a distance from each other to be able to think the big thoughts because when you are close to each other you have this tendency to make 'small talk'.

The Bean Field: when all the rows are added together they make up seven miles of bean plants. Thoreau is certainly ambitious when it comes to beans.

Jonathan
May 1, 2002 - 08:01 pm
VISITORS is a somewhat disappointing chapter in Thoreau's wonderful book. It puts him in a bad light. He says he loves society. But in the way 'a bloodsucker loves to meet a full-blooded man?!! That makes calling on him problematical. And yet they do. Twenty-five or thirty souls at a time, 'with their bodies', crowd into his little house. And take their chances. The acoustics are terrible. Carrying on a meaningful conversation, or, more correctly, projecting thoughts, involves a complicated theory involving distances between speakers, the order of thought, whether trivial or profound, it makes a difference, and the moving around of chairs in a centrifugal fashion.

It's all very unpleasant. With the 'inconvenienced' host soon even thinking bullets and their trajectories through a human head. Whether his own, or the head of some guest, he doesn't tell us. Probably Mrs. ____'s.

Don't bother to sign the guest book. He has 'too good a memory to make that necessary.' What's this? He would rather forget the whole lot of us? Timing is everything. Look for hints. Our host has little patience for 'men who did not know when their visit had terminated'. And be sure to take note of that cross-stitched motto on the wall: 'Objects of charity are not guests'. My, oh my! Only in New England!

But all that changes, wonderfully, if you should happen to be a Canadian wood chopper. Or a half-wit, with enough sense to challenge the Walden Sage metaphysically. Here Thoreau meets men whom he can't see through, as he can those gossiping villagers.

Or is our host like that other one who said: 'Suffer the little children. Of such is the Kingdom of Heaven.'

The Canadian wood cutter gets five pages. Half the chapter! I love it. All is forgiven Henry David. Bless you.

Jonathan

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 2, 2002 - 09:42 am
Hawks flying high circling on the thermols is a common site for me and the metaphore of their flight pattern as thought was wonderous to me.

If only today's farmer could make the kind of profit as Thoreau was able to produce they would all be living in high cotton.

His hearing the music from the village reminded me how, as late as the early 1970s, I could still hear the UT Band and the roar of the crowd during football games - then we were a town of about 500,000 and now of course we are over a million with a major artery cutting the town lengthwise and located only two blocks from the UT stadium called I-35 which is crowded with 18 wheelers transporting goods from Mexico to Cananda and so that stillness that allowed music to float on the air is no longer.

The Thoreau Reader has seveal great links and this one I found particularly helpful: The Literary World of 'Hank' Thoreau The linked pages provide information on thirty-four of the men and women that Thoreau mentioned or quoted in Walden. Together, they create a window into the world of the New England intellectual of the 1840's and 1850's.

Here is an example of a link to the Poet Babi quoted from in an earlier post. The Cowper and Newton Museum - William Cowper 1731-1800

And my reading this essay helped me better understand our Hank's attitude toward science and nature - Thoreau's view of Science

I thought this chapter especially seemed to be an exercise in noting nature as a Transcendentalist issue - what do you think? This quote in the article is Emerson but it seemed to me to be the focus of Thoreau's murmerings in this chapter.
"What is his place on earth? One view enjoined man to be humble; the other encouraged his pride. "In view of all these facts," Emerson proclaimed, "I conclude that other creatures reside inparticular places.... but the residence of man is the world. It was given to him to possess it."

Emerson accepted science largely because it answered his vast conceptions of man and God. To him it implied a rebellion against conservative pessimism. "But I think the paramount source of the religious revolution was Modern Science...."."

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 2, 2002 - 09:58 am
Mal what are white beans? Are they like a white version of 'Red Beans' or even 'Black-eyed Beans' that we are more familiar with? Seems to me you cook Kentucky Wonders green fresh and with a piece of ham where as the other beans are hard and can be stored and used over the winter in stews and chilli.

Jonathan please tell me that the woodchopper is a characture of a Canadian woodsmen - he did seem to be portrayed as rather dim but with a heart of gold and a knowledge of the woods. But oh dear, he really isn't, is he, an emissary for O' Canada? Hehehe his satisfying his need for money sounds like the typical wet-back that we now associate with those crossing the Rio Grande rather than the St. Lawrence.

Malryn (Mal)
May 2, 2002 - 10:22 am
Barb, navy beans and pea beans are the "white" beans often used in Boston Baked Beans. They are dried, as are kidney beans, which are also baked in New England. We didn't know what black beans were when I was growing up and never, ever ate chili.

Cooking green beans such as Kentucky Wonder and Lowe's Champions and other vegetables with ham or fatback is a Southern way of cooking. In my part of New England, we boiled the green beans slowly until they were soft and served them with butter and salt and pepper. Fatback is called salt pork in New England.

Mal

BaBi
May 2, 2002 - 11:54 am
Malryn, down South we not only cook greens with fatback, we may even eat them with a dash of vinegar! My only complaint about greens is that they are delicious hot, but inedible (imo) as soon as they start getting cold.

I liked this: "...I occasionally observed that he was thinking for himself and expressing his own opinion - a phenomenon so rare that I would any day walk ten miles to observe it;.." It's true, it's true! How often what we offer as our opinions are simply the opinions we have picked up from the newspaper, the television, or whoever we consider really smart.

Another line of Thoreau's made me think of those people one meets who have one interest only, one topic of conversation. The kind you start avoiding, you know? "Men of one idea, like a hen with one chicken, and that a duckling". I had to laugh.

As to beans, navy beans and Great Northerns are my favorites, but I don't make baked beans out of them. Break out the salt pork again, serve them with cornbread, and I am HAPPY! ....Babi

Malryn (Mal)
May 2, 2002 - 02:30 pm

BaBi, I have lived in Chapel Hill, North Carolina for 11 years and lived in St. Augustine, Florida for 10 years before I moved here.

I'm sorry to tell you that Writers Exchange WREX member Patrick Bruyere died last Saturday, April 27. He was a courageous man, and we'll miss the wisdom of what he wrote, some of which he posted here. Click the link below to see Pat's essay in the May issue of the WREX Magazine.

The Need to Be Alone by Patrick Bruyere

Harold Arnold
May 2, 2002 - 03:55 pm
Here is a quick comment on New England Cuisine, which is about the limit of my experience with it. I think the White bean is what is sometimes referred to as “navy beans.” Isn’t this the bean used in canned “Pork and Beans? I confess I sort of liked the strange WW II, navy beans (pork and beans) and cornbread breakfast. I also like a navy bean soup and on occasion I have been know to make it from my own home derived recipe.

Pushing on beyond the bean, I truly love New England Clam Chowder. Again I sometimes make my own but come to think of it not for a long time. Also the quality of mine I guess cannot be high since the clams are likely to have spent the immediate past year or more in a can. My favorite New England Sea Food would have to be lobster as I experienced it only once in a very late September, 1988 cookout on the beach at Saint Andrew, N.B. That lobster was magnificent. The local boiled shrimp, however (here I go being picky), was not the equal of our gulf shrimp.

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 2, 2002 - 04:51 pm
Oh dear - and we only had a post from Pat here in this discussion as he shared his wisdom that he passed on to his grandchildren. Thanks for the Tip Mal

Aha Harold and so we have the navy bean as the bean that our 'Hank' was growing.

Again, I had a field day today looking up all these 'nature' links - made me itchy to get my camara back into service. I found this fabulous site of wildflower photos and information in Connecticut ( which is next to Massachusetts) The pages load slowly but are worth it - each flower is linked to a complete information page with additional photos of the flower. If you are not interested in waiting for the entire site I took a few of the individual pages and linked them to the names of the flowers our 'Hank' mentions in the chapter The Bean-Field

Did y'all know there was creeping, common, great, dwarf and spotted St. Johnswort and ST. Johnswort makes a 'red' dye!

As much as I think I know wildflowers I had never heard of a cinquefoil. Now this is a surprise they are in the Rose family - there is a three-toothed, shrubby, dwarf, rough, sulfur and common cinquefoil.

Information and a photo of Wormwood from a State of Washington site.

Couldn't find any photo of piper (sudan i.e. sorgham) or millet grass.

I didn't know that the Woodchuck was a memeber of the Squirrel Family. This great Canadian site (Jonathan catch that it is a site from O' Canada) has a photo and explains there are nine varieties or subspecies of woodchuck, which we also know as the 'groundhog'.

Here is a delightful folk tale from the Philippines about the Hawk and the Hen and here are photos of a Red-tailed Hawk This is a site with photos of flying hawks in the United Kingdom called Hen Harrier OH and this fabulous photo for a nesting Cock and Hen Sparrow Hawk photographed by John Young.

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 2, 2002 - 05:28 pm
So far from these three chapters I am reminded that the cycle of nature is what I depend on to keep me alive - running down to the H.E.B. for every bean and potato, it is easy for me to forget that cycle. And where I have always enjoyed observing the wildflowers this brings me closer to the realization we push them aside in order to plant our preverbial "Bean-Fields."

As to his Visiters truth be told I never enjoyed large parties, especialy when the idea of a cocktail party was in vogue or "God" forbid the 'New Year Party' - now a barbeque I can enjoy because there is lots of space to spread out and folks seem to rove from cluster to cluster without the affected conversation of an indoor large party.

I loved Thoreau's expression "The black bonnets of the gray coat" almost a keening which we learned as a poetic term while reading Beowulf. AT first I thought our 'Hank' just didn't like the village or cityfolk but when I review all his remarks I think he is saying he finds them judgemental and that is the characteristic he likes to avoid.

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 2, 2002 - 05:43 pm
Oh my this says so much and could easily have been a post here in the Walden discussion - one of Patrick Bruyere's last posts here in seniornet.

Patrick Bruyere post in the History of Civilization

Jonathan
May 2, 2002 - 09:29 pm
Thanks Mal. And thanks Barbara, for the link to what must almost certainly be Patrick's last post. And what a post! One just had to like and admire him. Every time I passed through Ogdensburg, NY, the last couple of years, I would think to myself, call on him. Get to know him a little better. Hear some more stories from this old soldier, which he told so well. He served his country well. Family and friends must be very proud of him.

Jonathan

Malryn (Mal)
May 3, 2002 - 07:36 am

There is a wonderful tribute to Patrick Bruyere written by his children in the Story of Civilization discussion. You can read it by clicking the link below.

Tribute to Pat Bruyere written by his children

BaBi
May 3, 2002 - 10:59 am
Malryn, I was very sorry to hear Patrick had died. I had read his essay on Solitude in the May issue, but took time to read it again knowing it was one of his last writings. There was a lot of depth to Patrick and I have always appreciated his posts. I hope he kept copies of all his writings for his family.

On the subject of the men of town and farm who came to visit Henry, but felt impelled to criticize.....I couldn't help feeling there was more than a touch of envy in their criticism. He was doing just fine, thank you, without the burdens and responsibilities his critics had to bear, and they couldn't abide it! ...Babi

Jonathan
May 3, 2002 - 11:06 am
Thanks, Mal, for the link to the tribute to Pat B. The vibes I got from his posts made me certain he was that kind of a guy. But I will never forgive him for the advice he had for cleaning up a cat. As for his love of books, that reminds me of the 'Thoreau' with his bookstore in a clearing in the woods, not too many miles from Ogdensburg. Since Barbara has given us carte blanche in this discussion (something like Thoreau's bean field chapter, eg?, , I believe I'll work up a little story about book selling and book buying, or, the compulsion to browse among books.

Jonathan

Jonathan
May 3, 2002 - 11:28 am
But he wasn't doing just fine, BaBi, if you allow me to differ. All he had to show for all that hard work was $8.75 and a half cent. And more funny ideas in chapter seven than the hen with her 100 chickens. He does more soul-searching in the bean-field than he's ready to admit. But he does admit to a lot, between the lines, doesn't he?

Jonathan

BaBi
May 3, 2002 - 11:35 am
But Jonathan, dear heart, the $8.75 wasn't the point, was it? He wasn't out in the woods to make a financial profit. He spent those months very happily, living just as he wished, while supporting himself quite adequately. That sounds "just fine" to me. ..Babi

Malryn (Mal)
May 3, 2002 - 02:21 pm

We have a tendency to forget one of the biggest reasons Henry David Thoreau went to Walden Pond. He went to write A Week on the Concord and Merrimack Rivers. In between hoeing beans and potatoes, reading, visiting and going to town, he wrote this book about a trip he and his brother took. Actually, I've read that the book is an amalgamation of notes into one volume about several river trips Thoreau and John took.

I'll bet you two to one Thoreau didn't have much sense about money. That was a lot of bushels of vegetables he sold for just $8.75 and a half cent. Thoreau paid out of his pocket for the publication of A Week on the Concord and Merrimack Rivers. Wonder where he dug up the money for that?

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
May 3, 2002 - 02:27 pm
Here's a link to a picture of some people standing near the life size statue of Henry David Thoreau by the cabin at Walden Pond. As you can see, Thoreau was not a very big man.

Thoreau statue

Malryn (Mal)
May 3, 2002 - 03:07 pm
Actually, BaBi, I don't think there's any way to tell which essay of Patrick Bruyere's was his last. He sent me his essay The Need to be Alone a long time ago. This is the second time I've published it. His last post in the Story of Civilization discussion also was not new. Pat had a collection of essays he wrote which he posted when he thought they were appropriate to the theme of the discussion.

It doesn't matter when Pat wrote his essays. Whenever they were written, Pat's words are precious and a legacy to us.

Mal

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 3, 2002 - 07:00 pm
Wow folks it may have only been $8.715 but that is a 59.185% return on his dollar!! - for ease of math just add a zero to the expense and profit - If we could invest today $14,725 and make a profit of $8,715 we'd be rich in money in no time flat never mind the additional peace of mind and physical well being. I just do not think there are those profit margins to be made by today's small farmer or even a gardener wanting to make a fast buck.

These three chapters were so much shorter than the chapter Economy that I found it is easier to absorb some of his thoughts as well as ponder my own - what brought a smile to my face was, his work is defined between Oak trees and blackberry patch - definitely in the box so to speak - where as today we are required to think from ground to sky and beyond both the Oaks and the Blackberries in order to prosper. Seems to me that even his freedom of movement within his bean-field had constraints, if only self-imposed as he determined the boundaries and felt it important to let us know what those boundaries are.

Interesting, as much as he does not like the constraints of thinking prevalent among the 'black bonnets' and 'gray coats' his Bean-Field is emulating a mind disciplined in rows and furrows within boundaries.

Jonathan
May 3, 2002 - 10:36 pm
Hardly an hour southeast of Ogdensburg, NY, just outside the huge Adirondack park, one can't possibly miss the hand-written sign: 10,000 Books, 6 miles, open 1-5 TFSS. Hang a left onto a secondary road, and eventually another left on a sub-secondary, and voila! a bookstore. A good one. Neat. Orderly. And well-stocked. It all seemed a bit odd when I first saw it. After Walden it doesn't seem unusual at all. It isn't a Walden Books, of course, but the feeling is there. A bibliophile and bookseller, on his own terms.

I never pass up an opportunity to check out a collection of books. The time I've spent browsing in second-hand bookstores would seem irrational to some. But considering the time some of my friends spend running after a ball, just to hit it one more time...well, different folks, different strokes. The finest day of my life I spent in a bookstore in Charing Cross, in the mid-eighties. The books were 'downstairs'. I slowly worked my way down, floor after floor. I heard and felt the trains of the Underground beneath me. Several hours and floors later I heard and felt them above me. It was on the 9th subterranian level that I found what I was looking for. A 1911 edition of Walton's Lives. The same as in the movie. At anytime I carry around a more or less subconscious wish list of obscure titles. But mostly it's just a compulsion to meet new writers between the covers. I do not have the means to buy every book that appeals to me. Much as I would like to buy a good part of every booksellers stock, to encourage them in the valuable service they provide.

But I've reached a sorry pass. It's part of the story I want to tell. The torment, the conflicting emotions, when I give in to the compulsion to gratify this browsing addiction. My peculiar torment is brought on by many strange motivators; the urge just to examine books; the determination not to buy; the consideration of persuading the bookseller that I'm a potential buyer; a strategy for an amicable exit without having bought anything; the certainty that one will not leave empty-handed; and on and on.

Here's my method. I walk in briskly, as if in a hurry, stop, where he sits behind his desk, ask, does he have (in an ascending order of unlikelihood) a foreign language section; a foreign language reference section; specifically, a yiddish lexicon; or some Sholem Aleichem, in the original? When I finally get a shake of the head, instead of a nod, I look around with mild curiousity. May I take a look around? Granted, I may leave the bookseller feeling inadequate with his limited stock; but I'm under stress, too; and all's fair...etc. On the other hand I try to make him feel that I appreciate and value his establishment with my presence and curiousity.

(I should explain here that the peculiar language of Yiddish has fascinated me ever since, at the age of ten, I listened to the strange conversation between my German-speaking father, and the Yiddish-speaking merchant, as they came to an agreement regarding the price of the fine leather windbreaker for me. It wasn't until I was retired that I put my mind to it. What a ball. What a linguistic banquet. My first teacher was a retired pharmicist, now passed away, who would end the class with a bit of humor. Almost invariably he was asked to retell the story of the two hens, boasting about their egg production. What sound effects! The grade A, Large of the one had fetched 30 cents a dozen. The Grade A Extra Large of the other had fetched 35 cents a dozen. Not worth the pain, for the extra five cents, was the opinion of the first. Told in Yiddish, it cracked us up every time. Seriously, of course, learning another guy's language is like acquiring another soul; or, looked at differently it meant 'a kuk ton oyf der velt mit yidishe oygen'...to see the world as it really is.)

Back to the story. My book browsing took a surprising turn that day in that little bookstore in the clearing in the woods. When I got as far as asking about yiddish materials, he muttered something, walked off, and left me to browse. A half hour later he reappeared with an armful of dusty old books. Would you believe it! Books 1 and 3 of a very ancient edition of the Talmud. (It must have come over on some Jewish Mayflower). Several volumes of Rabbinical Responsa. And a Machzor! An awesome book. I could see that he believed all books printed in Hebrew to be 'yiddish'. The Hebrew language is beyond me; but not Yiddish. Same alphabet; but not Hebrew. No matter. I've gotten to love the old Machzor, an old Eng/Heb Prayer Book.

While browsing I had found a John Kendrick Bangs. A first edition 'Coffee and Repartee'! I was already the proud possessor of 'A House-Boat on the Styx', a first edition, mint, which I had picked up for 50 cents, at an antique flea market. 'Coffee and Repartee' had a $15 price on it. Well worth it.

Was I a connoisseur of Bangs, he wanted to know. If so, he had a complete set of 8 volumes. Sure enough, in an alcove, where he kept stuff he never expected to sell, for guys like me, there they were. Talk about "my heart leaps up". A pleasure to read, and lovely to look at, with their green and gold spines. They catch the sun every morning, just when I'm opening my eyes. The 'Coffee' is included with 'The Idiot' in one volume.

Are you familiar with Bangs? Let me quote you something from The Idiot. He's the guy in the gentlemen's boarding house of a hundred years ago, who forever has a new idea for applying, in a new invention, the then amazing science and technology...for example, bringing religion and science together in creating a 'prophetograph'; or describing to Mr Whitechoker, the Minister and fellow boarder, how he, the Minister, will be able to make good use of the new communications technology...the telephone:

'The time will come, Mr Whitechoker, when your missionaries will be able to sit in their comfortable rectories, and ring up the heathen in foreign climes, and convert them over the telephone, without running the slightest danger of falling into the soup; which expression I use in its literal rather than its metaphorical sense.'

Not very funny? It sold a lot of books for Mr Bangs a hundred years ago. And where can you find treasures like this. The sign is on 56, perhaps a mile south of 68. Check it out if you're as obsessed as I am. And be sure to catch the atmosphere of the entire enterprise!!

Jonathan

Malryn (Mal)
May 4, 2002 - 06:17 am
Jonathan, that is a wonderful post. Imagine how you would have felt if you'd been in my shoes as manager of a used book shop.

The man who owned the shop was fairly new acquaintance of mine, an extremely cosmopolitan, well-read person, who loved to collect books and knew nothing about running a business. Because I was attracted to his knowledge of books, his sophistication in a town full of beach bums and the shop itself, which was in an old three story house in a charming town, I agreed to run his business for him.

It was hours and hours of hard work, carrying books down from the second floor where they were all in random order, cataloguing them and arranging them on shelves according to type and in alphabetical order, I was in seventh heaven because I lived and breathed books the better part of my life. I managed to read a great deal in between jobs I had to do and after I exhaustedly went home.

The arrangement was that I'd be a partner and would receive nearly half the profits the shop made if I'd do this job alone and by myself while the owner was busy off doing other things; I'd receive no salary until the profits began to come in. As it turned out, there weren't any profits because the owner did not list among the "other things" he had to do the search for books to stock the shop. I couldn't do what I had to do, wait on customers, keep the shop clean, do the bookkeeping, arrange advertising and hold open house, and go find books, too.

Despite the hard work it was for no pay at all, it was perhaps the most wonderful job I ever had in my life. I ended up buying more books than I could afford and increased my library by at least a thousand books. Those books are all in boxes in my daughter's studio. They've never been brought into this apartment or unpacked in the two years I've been in this place. Just beyond those French doors you see in the kitchen area is a treasure trove of books, all mine.

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
May 4, 2002 - 09:04 am
Barb, you're talking return on investment, I think. If Thoreau worked five hours a day in the garden for the three months between planting and harvest, according to the Massachusetts climate, he made under two cents a day for the work he did and the crops he sold. Unskilled workers in 1850 could earn a dollar a day. I don't think what Thoreau received was very good pay.

Mal

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 4, 2002 - 12:51 pm
Aha Mal the time eliment - ah so -

Sounds like Reading is as much about loving the book - not only what it contains in print but the book with all its heft and decoration.

Finally about two years ago I decided to clear-out - I sold at half-price Bookstore over 500 needlework books and another 400 books of assorted interests including some old novels that didn't hold up.

Getting into needlework sounds like such a crafty homemaker feminine domestic art doesn't it - but it was an amazing venture into history, commerce, trade, the invention of glass windows and the affect it had on the needlework trades, the wool and linen trade, the history of guilds and monasteries economic base in wool - the history of design going back to the early Greeks, just learning the goldwork alone was a history into the church and the military - it was an amazing venture that held my interest for 30 years. I ended up studying in both France and Britain as well as several schools here in the States and taught not only locally but at two national Needlework conferences. And so where I had sold about 500 I still own about 400 Needlework books

It is so easy to buy books isn't it - I still own books that I couldn't pass up and have not yet read - I just love the old cloth covered books printed in the early 1900s - somehow they feel softer and I love the inscriptions that I often find inside the front cover.

Jonathan What is the difference between Yiddish and Hebrew? Sounds like you also know the glory that Thoreau speaks of - reading something in the original language - The bookstore in London that I can get lost in for hours is Edward Stamford Lmt on Long Acre - not as large as your Charring Cross bookstore but several levels - one floor is filled with books and maps for trail hiking all over the world - also there is a delightful Children's Book Center over on Kensigton High that has several rooms filled with the most delightful children's collection, many authors we just do not see here in the States or if they do make it across they arrive many years later - what I loved, while the grands were pre-school, many of the books were packaged with a tape of the book read aloud by one of Brit's fine actors -

Mal did you find that as much as you loved working in the bookstore you ended up using the better portion of your salary to purchase the books - I know I worked at a Needlework shop for a year to see if I wanted to own my own shop - (Didn't, there is no time to do what you love which is stitch and design you are too busy marketing, doing accounts, stocking, ordering, etc. even the helping of others choose their project of yarn, in other words working with the customer is limited as compared to all the other details) - well however I ended up each week purchasing this or that which I did not think I could do without - unfortunately like so often my eyes were bigger than the time in life to do all my imagination can visualize and so I still have cloth and threads etc. stored in boxes.

The closest that I ever came to working among books was when I was in the eighth grade - the year before I assisted in the very large library in our school and in the eighth grade I was "the" librarian on Sunday. The library had a significant adult section that was open on Sunday from 11: to 2: so that those attending either the 10: 11: or 12: o'clock Mass could walk up the street and use the Library.

Hardly ever was there anyone after the 10: o'clock Mass and so my first duties came with a small flurry around noon-time - I usually arrived about 10:30 and so I had a delicious hour and half to read any book in that Library and on a quiet Sunday I could read till about 1:15 when the few regulars arrived that came after the 12: o'clock Mass was over. I can't say it was my lifetime favorite job but at the time I was in heaven.

You are both reminding me of the way Thoreau opened his chapter Reading
With a little more deliberation in the choice of their pursuits, all men would perhaps become essentially students and observers, for certainly their nature and destiny are interesting to all alike. In accumulating property for ourselves or our posterity, in founding a family or a state, or acquiring fame even, we are mortal; but in dealing with truth we are immortal, and need fear no change nor accident...

...I have had this advantage in books.

Malryn (Mal)
May 4, 2002 - 01:40 pm
Barb, as I said in my post, I never was paid a cent of money the entire time I ran the book shop. Finally I got tired of it and found a job that paid me a little something, but wasn't half as much fun. When I left, the book shop closed, never to reopen again.

Mal

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 4, 2002 - 01:45 pm
ahhhh- how sad - I guess I didn't read thoroughly and didn't realize you were volunteering your time - oh my - and so the many books you collected was appropriatly some payment.

BaBi
May 4, 2002 - 02:41 pm
Malryn, your post about Patrick's essays cleared up some confusion on my part. On more than one occasion I would read a post of Patrick's and think, "I'm sure I've read that before!" Or, "Patrick, you're repeating yourself!" Now I understand what he was doing.

Jonathan, I am wholeheartedly in sympathy with your preference for book-browsing as opposed to chasing small balls thru' the head of the day. I am also cramped for space, so I confine purchases to "keepers" and go to the library for everything else. A favorite dream of mine is exploring those London streets dedicated to second-hand book stores.

I confess to having wanted to study Yiddish since my retirement, as the language has always seemed to me to be associated with laughter and good-hearted family feeling. Reality, however, pointed out that with a hearing loss that gave me enough trouble in plain English, my prospects for success with another language were poor to non-existent. I wonder though if I could possibly learn the language well enough to read it, even if I couldn't converse in it. What do you think?

On the basis of your endorsement, I will have to check out John K Bangs. Since his work dates back that far I may not find anything of his still available in the local library, but it will still be fun to hunt. ...Babi

Malryn (Mal)
May 4, 2002 - 04:09 pm
Barb, I bought and paid for all the books I added to my library from that book shop. The job was an investment in myself. I was positive I could make the business succeed, and I worked hard because, as a partner, when profits started rolling in I'd make good money. What I didn't anticipate in any way, shape or manner was the fact that the owner would not go out and find books to replace the stock. Customers won't continue to shop if there's nothing new to buy.

Wonder if Yiddish is anything like Russian. I studied that language for a while.

Mal

Harold Arnold
May 4, 2002 - 04:33 pm
Here is a late comment relative to solitude and visitors that I have been meaning to post all week. There were just too many loose ends for me to get to it before now. Thoreau sums up his views on the solitude coming with his residency at Walden about 6 pages into the chapter in my edition in a paragraph beginning as follows:
I think it wholesome to be alone the greater part of the time. To be in company, even with the best, is soon wearisome and dissipating. I love to be alone. I have never found the companion that was so companionable as solitude…….


I suppose I could say that I agree at least in a substantial part of what Thoreau is saying until perhaps the last sentence of the quotation. I too live alone in a relatively isolated environment. Where, as I have said in my Senior’s net profile, “I have found the isolation that I seek.” But I am quick to continue in the same sentence with “yet I am close enough to the social and cultural resources of the cities that I need also.”

In my case I am tied to the near world through I-10 and I-35 and two modern motor vehicles and too the greater outside world through the Southwest Air Lines, Southwestern Bell and the Internet and Satellite TV. Yet in some ways I think Thoreau at Walden, was less isolated than I. He was within walking distance of Concord so he too was not deprived of the social and cultural resources of the town. Also Thoreau seems to have had frequent visitations from strangers passing along the road near his house. He says they sometimes stopped using as excuse the asking for a glass of water. My road 100 feet in front of my house is closer than Thoreau’s cabin was to his road. At least a dozen vehicles shoot by each hour. Yet very, very few have yet to stop for any reason.

After probing deep into twenty-three years of recollection I now recall only one such casual visit from a stranger on the road. This was an old Black gentleman at least 80 years old staggering up the driveway one Saturday morning in 1983. He was very confused and could not give a name or address. I was about to call 911 when he produced an old wallet with an Id with an address indicating he lived several miles further down the road. Included was a telephone number that I called and the lady obviously much relieved said he was her father and would come and pick him up right a way. We drank iced tea on my front porch until she arrived a few minutes later.

I suppose as close as I could come to Thoreau’s Canadian Woodchopper was my late neighbor. His great grandfather had signed the Texas Declaration of Independence and he had grown up in pre WW II rural Texas. He was drafted in WW II and had married an English girl. They returned to Texas to raise their family where he was employed in many farm labor jobs. Finally in the late 1970’s they purchased a 10-acre tract of land and a house trailer home. Not long after I met them the wife died of lung cancer and a few years later after his many years of exposure to the Texas sun, he developed a melanoma that quickly resulted in his death also. There is to me something about the hard working simplicity that characterized his life that parallels Thoreau’s description of the Canadian woodchopper who visited him at Walden.

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 4, 2002 - 06:44 pm
Your post Harold reminds me of this old poem A House on the Side of the Road

Babi and you also want to study Yiddish - I have heard there is a whole tradition of theatre that is based in Yiddish Humor but I really still do not know the difference between what is Yiddish and what is Jewish and what is Hebrew.

Jonathan I sent an e-mail to the regular posters in this discussion and unfortunatly yours comes back undeliverable - please would you e-mail to me your current e-mail address - it may have changed since you first posted your e-mail address here on your seniornet page.

Mal your bookstore venture sounds rather ominous.

SpringCreekFarm
May 4, 2002 - 07:43 pm
Recently on National Public Radio's All Things Considered, they have been rebroadcasting old radio shows from the 40s which were originally the Yiddish Radio Hour. Very funny. (I may have the name of the original program incorrect). Sue

P.S. They run the original commercials, too, which were for products like Matzoh meal.

Malryn (Mal)
May 4, 2002 - 08:17 pm
Ominous, Barbara? Not at all, but I made it that way in a novel I wrote a couple of years ago about the book shop I ran and some people I knew while working there. It's a murder mystery called The Laird, the Lady, and the Literate Muse.

Anybody else here like Klezmer music? Why do I associate that with Yiddish, Jonathan?

Mal

xxxxx
May 5, 2002 - 03:42 am
Mal wrote: "Wonder if Yiddish is anything like Russian. I studied that language for a while."

My Jewish friends have always said that it was closest to German, and it certainly sounds like German. I understand that the vocabulary became more Russian as you moved east and more German as you moved west.

Jack

BaBi
May 5, 2002 - 02:57 pm
Malryn, was THE LAIRD, THE LADY AND THE LITERATE MUSE" published? It sounds like something I would really enjoy.

My understanding of Yiddish is much the same as Jack's; a simplified German, with Russian words added up in that neck of the woods. But so much of it seems to have become part of everyone's idiom. "Oy vay!" is Yiddish, isn't it?

I have enjoyed 'Solitude' and "The Bean Field". Now I'm curious to see what Thoreau has to say about the village. I have a suspicion from past comments that he might be just a wee bit snide there. My apologies in advance, Henry David, if I have slandered you. ...Babi

Malryn (Mal)
May 5, 2002 - 09:12 pm
Thoreau saw the village as a great news room, a gossip mill with men sitting at the village store, eyes and ears open to the grist, and mouths spilling it out as news before it went "within".

This made me smile because it reminded me of little towns in Maine when I was much younger, the closest thing to what Concord must have been in Thoreau's day. Men sat on the porch of the general store, taking in all there was to see and hear and chewing the fat of it along with their tobacco chaw. In winter, they sat around the pot-bellied stove and shared gossip, news and checkers. Who named women as the gossips of the world, anyway?

Thoreau managed to escape calling at all the houses by slipping through the gap in the fence, though he certainly had an eye and an ear out for the men who were the newscasters of the day. I don't think he missed much that went on, despite his professed detachment from village society.

Fine description of travelling through the woods to his cabin at night or during storms: "...my body would find its way home if its master should forsake it". Others were not so lucky and wandered around until daylight.

Thoreau says, "...not until we have lost the world, do we begin to find ourselves, and realize where we are and the infinite extent of our relations." Well, maybe. That system worked for Thoreau, apparently, but it's not the chosen or necessary way of everyone, in my opinion.

Thoreau was arrested on one of his jaunts into town for not paying his poll tax. It has always aggravated me that he made no fuss about the poll tax, which was in existence when I was a kid, and is a very, very unfair tax. Instead, he fumed at the essence and idea of a government he "did not pay a tax to, or recognize the authority of.....which buys and sells men, women, and children, like cattle, at the door of its senate-house."

Yeah, Mr. Thoreau, but tell me this. Who elected that government, and who voted to pass the poll tax law, or did you forget all about that little facet of democracy?

Mal

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 6, 2002 - 01:43 am
Welcome Jack and glad to see you poke your head in Sue - interesting - I was checking out Joan's discussion 'Great Books Upcoming' and she has a link to Harold Bloom's Western Cannon a list of Great Books. He has the list arranged by historical time and by language, in most cases nations. The list includes a group of both Hebrew and Yiddish book titles - so evidently there is not only a difference but authors of both languages have written books that he considers worthy to be included in the Cannon of Western Literature.

I think we are all ready Babi for the next group of chapters and it looks like Mal has started us off in great style.

I loved the bit about his fishing at night - but I can hardly imagine the woods being as dark as he alluded - I've done my share of walking through the woods at night. Except for the darkest nights when there is no moon there always seems to be a bit of light peeping through the canapy.

For years I spent either a few weeks or the entire summer at Girl Scout camp in one capacity or another - I would bring my youngest with me, sometimes the weeks ironing as well - my daughter would be attending camp and my older boy would be at Boy Scout camp - I never knew till several years later the terror I caused one year, while in a unit at Camp Judy Layne in the Appalachian mountains of eastern Kentucky. I would go for my shower after the girls were settled down for the night. Coming back on the dirt path I didn't want my clean feet to get all muddy and so I would shower and walk back in my rain boots - with water in the boots it kept my feet from rubbing raw on the boot. Of course this created a great sloshing noise that evidently scared half the girls to death as they were thinking I was some kind of wild beast gurgling and sloshing through the woods. And here I thought they were simply all sleeping - they were frozen with fear in their cots.

I guess I feel our 'Hank' took me for a ride as I read the chapter The Village - with all his talk of solitude and preaching how the villages were needy and greedy and he was so independent - it turns out he walks to the village every two days or so to listen to the very news that the villagers are sharing - and - if I read it correctly -- he even is given bags of rye or Indian meal, I assume by his hosts as he sneaks out of their bright parlour and lecture rooms - that would be like receiving 'Community Hand-out,' 'Food Stamps,' a supplement to that list of expenses he so proudly spoke of as an example of his simplified living - humpf

Seems like he is a 'taker' in that he likes to listen to their news and gossip, in addition he takes in their hospitality but, does not want to extend his curtesy or hospitality to them. - humpf again. Is there any redemption for his behavior?

I love this essay - the writer admits to getting more from his relationships with those he visits each weekend as a result of spending his weeks in isolation at his cabin as he created for himself

My Own Walden

Malryn (Mal)
May 6, 2002 - 06:46 am

I don't know what anyone else thinks, but I consider "our Hank" disrespectful. This man was born David Henry Thoreau and insisted as an adult that he be called Henry. For that reason alone, I think that's what we should call him, too.

Mal

BaBi
May 6, 2002 - 08:15 am
Did anyone else feel uncomfortable with Thoreau's attitude of going to "observe" the villagers, as though they were seem lesser species like the woodchucks? I definitely did not care for that.

I have always disliked gossip, but I also recognize a distinction to be made on the subject. There is malicious gossip, which should not be tolerated for a second. There is nosy gossip, most deplorable, and to be vigorously discouraged. But I feel there is also a legitimate "neighborhood alert" type of news passing, that serves an important purpose. It was a way of letting the community know that Mrs. Jones was ill, or neighbor Thomas barn was damaged in the storm, and help was needed. In Thoreau's day, mouth to mouth was the most common form of communication and not all personal information was idle gossip. ...Babi

Malryn (Mal)
May 6, 2002 - 08:48 am
Below is a link to a picture of Concord, Massachusetts in 1840.

CONCORD

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 6, 2002 - 09:49 am
Ok Mal no terms of endearment for our Henry David if it is making you uncomfortable - Babi I'm wondering if gossip and news have always been linked. We expect professional news to check out and have more than one source but we sure pass a lot of gossip/news through e-mail - this linking of gossip and news seems to have always been a part of small town life and with that I even wonder if that is what we are trying to re-create with our gossip/news e-mails.

But than this could all be Thoreau's view of others. He does give an unusual comparison as he describes the physical make-up of the village - "...the houses were so arranged as to make the most of mankind, in lanes and fronting one another, so that every traveller had to run the gauntlet, and every man, woman, and child might get a lick at him."

Mal did you feel the village checker players in Maine were a 'gauntlet' the town folks had to pass in order to get into the general store? Your comment "Thoreau saw the village as a great news room..." reminds me that we read in an earlier chapter how folks needed to wake up and learn what had happened while they slept - I guess that knee-jerk reaction is what prompts the morning new/gossip/magazine shows on TV.

Do any of you read the morning paper any longer? Do you see the morning paper as a source of community news that draws you closer to your neighbors? I'm as uncomfortable as you are Babi with gossip and the outragious twists and spins available in the newspapers at the grocery check-out amaze me that anyone would buy such trash and yet they are still in business.

I must admit that I'm often influenced in local elections by what I hear from those that are 'in the know' because of their past experiences with the candidate. Do you think that Henry David peering in at his village neighbors was bringing him closer to his community?

Stepping back I am seeing we all have this balancing act between individuality and personal freedom versus our dependence and our security provided by community. I wonder if Thoreau was still trying to comes to terms with what that balance was. Sounds like he had some serious concerns about the morality of the community and yet he did not play the hermit.

Hmmm just dawned on me - when was the Scarlet Letter written - that was sure filled with a community judgement of behavior - I wonder how much of Thoreau's comment 'the gauntlet' was in response to the controlling puritanical views of morality that may still have a grip on Concord in the 1840s and 50s.

Malryn (Mal)
May 6, 2002 - 10:30 am
The Scarlet Letter: Nathaniel Hawthorne, 1850.

Remember that in a town the size Concord was in Thoreau's time, everyone knew everyone else and everybody's business. The slightest deviation in "normalcy" was commented on, and the news passed around almost as fast as it does on the computer. Thoreau's behavior was not normal in any sense of the word, and I'm sure he was talked about plenty, as were other intellectual Transcendentalists.

I think this gossip tendency is true of any small town in the United States. When I lived near St. Augustine, population 12,000, and worked in the Old City, the residents and shopkeepers knew everything that was going on in town, mostly by word of mouth.

There are still small towns in New England where Puritanism is very much alive and well.

Mal

YiLi Lin
May 6, 2002 - 11:12 am
I was even accustomed to make an irruption into some houses, where I was well entertained, and after learning the kernels and very last sieve-ful of news, what had subsided, the prospects of war and peace, and whether the world was likely to hold together much longer, I was let out through the rear avenues, and so escaped to the woods again.

A kind of cheating or a kind of idyll? What a luxury to every now and then touch base with the events ofo the world, glean what you wish and the retreat again to solitude in a protected environment.

YiLi Lin
May 6, 2002 - 11:32 am
Barb your repartee a few posts back with I think Mal- about the different view of wages earned vs. return on investments reminds me of the dilemma of most artists and craftspeople, writers and poets then and now. We must look at compensation in a different way- I for one prefer the sense of a return on investment. I might use 20 dollars worth of material and 100 hours to produce a handwoven scarf- if I even began to calculate minimum wage, there would be no takers. I might spend up to 3 months fine tuning a piece of fiction that 'sells' perhaps for $300 or in some cases a free volume of the literary magazine or journal. So value, even the value placed on our labors, I think, need to include self-satisfaction and contribution to the community. What do you think?

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 6, 2002 - 12:10 pm
Yes Yili Lin I do agree, "self-satisfaction and contribution to the community." is valuable - I would have to agree because if I were to calculate the hours I spend with some folks as they make one of the more important decisions of their life I too would be lucky to earn 25 cents an hour. But than it seems to balance out in that every year I seem to work with at least one person or family that makes their decision within hours, goes on contract in one day, gets their loan and closes within a week or two, which balances out the families that struggle.

For me I spend so much time because I guess 'self-satisfaction' - I have visited so many families after they are in their home 6 months or more and I've noticed the arrangement of the rooms and the neighborhood they have chosen truly affects the successful relationships between family members. Also, I like to bring as much information to them as I can so that this investment they are making has the best chance to increase in value.

Now I learned a long time ago the arts do not pay very well - oh there are a few that make it big but the vast majority I think see any finanical contribution as a sign of acceptance for their work but certainly not enough to live on unless, the concept of the 'starving artist' is a valued picture of success.

Over and over I read that Thoreau was doing this as an experiment and not as a lifetime economic choice. Yes, I beleive that simplicity gives us greater freedom but I also believe that we have talents that would be wasted if we did not use them with the end result, we affect our community. I also think here in the States we all seem to go through a time when we are seperated from family and friends. Some of us isolate but many more of us use the opportunity to develope new friends and become a bit clearer with our own personal values. I see this as compared to many other nations where several generations live together, often under one roof and seldom are family members seperated from each other.

I guess I am reacting more to our place in a community and how even our earnings reflect the contribution we make to the community as well as, how we market (news/gossip) our skills to the community. It appears to me it is in the marketing that today makes the difference if you work for 2 cents an hour or $200 an hour.

Malryn (Mal)
May 6, 2002 - 09:18 pm

"A man cannot free himself by any self-denying ordinances, neither by water nor potatoes, nor by violent possibilities, by refusing to swear, refusing to pay taxes, by going to jail, or by taking another man's crops or squatting on his land. By none of these ways can he free himself; no, nor by paying his debts with money; only by obedience to his own genius."


Ralph Waldo Emerson as quoted on page 384
Emerson: The Mind on Fire by Robert D. Richardson

Jonathan
May 6, 2002 - 09:23 pm
Did you all take note that a swim in Walden Pond will wash wrinkles away? It smoothed the studied furrows of Thoreau's brow. Why not the blemishes of time? Of course we have only his word, or literary talent, for it, that it was hard study and lofty thoughts which wrinkled his forehead, and not perplexity or care.

I meant to ask you, Barbara, if you ever thought of the hawks circling above your head, as being embodiments of your thoughts, as Thoreau did while working in the bean-field?

You're right, BaBi, the $8.75 profit was not the point of Thoreau's alternative life style. Besides being a declaration of self-reliance, his sowing and reaping at Walden was, as he says, 'only for the sake of tropes and expressions, to serve a parable-maker one day'. So there we have it.

But then I have had a hard time understanding this young man and his style, something I don't remember having when I first read it many years ago. I do believe he has me feeling younger again with his honesty in admitting what he's up to. It's like Mal has told us several times. Thoreau wants to write, and he's honing his skills.

All philosophers can seem a little crazy at times...to a laymen like me. Thoreau however, I believe, is a special case. Perhaps it's because he aimed so high, while probing the bottomless depths. When someone starts looking for material for parables, one can assume that that person is feeling her/his way to hidden, ultimate truths. We're getting hints of that all the time.

For me Thoreau's confession is the key to the man and his style. To elaborate on that is beyond the scope of this post. What's more important for me is that Thoreau's candid admission and integrity lend credibility to his use of such curious ways and means to prove himself to himself and enlighten humanity. Keeping that in mind makes it great fun to read chapter 8.

So what if he's a wee bit dishonest. It seems very strange that a man who can't abide small talk, would go looking for gossip every day or two. Was he in fact going to Mom's for some doughnuts, and other supplies? If a lecture, why isn't that given as much consideration as the gossip. 'I went there frequently to observe their habits.' And haven't we already seen how he scrutinizes, evaluates, and judges his fellow human beings? Talk about comparing apples and oranges! Muskrats and men! Or looking for that simile which really grabs one. Such as the village gossip going around, like an etherizing Etesian wind.

But every thing he says about being lost in the dark woods is true. And it squares with the strange stories we have all heard of the ability of some people to find their way. Some can smell a compass direction.

The little philosophic gem in The Village is, I think, the thought that everyone 'has to learn the points of compass again as often as he (or she) wakes, whether from sleep or any abstraction'. Isn't Walden an attempt to find new bearings? And how easy it is to lose them!

Despite spending some time in jail, I feel Thoreau deserves our respect.

Harold, I enjoyed your thoughts and description of the solitary life. Could it be your well-meaning neighbors who discourage people from stopping at your place? I recall the incident with the house renovators.

Jonathan

Jonathan
May 6, 2002 - 09:31 pm
Mal, that is a good example of why Emerson was such an inspiration for his and following generations.

Jonathan

Harold Arnold
May 7, 2002 - 08:34 am
Through much of our country many ponds are visible from the window seat of a 737. This is certainly true of Texas. Looking out in the spring almost any view will show many from very small fraction of and acre size to several acres, and even to several 10's of acres, Most are dependent on rain fall so not so many will be seen at the end of summer but there will still be quite a few.

To my recollection I don't recall so many flying through the Mississippi and Southeast to say Pittsburgh or Washington DC. I think there you see more flowing creeks and river. My large pond would most often be dry by late August before I began pumping it. I estimate that $120 of my $1,200 total yearly electric utility cost is for maintaining the pond at an adequate level.

Jonathan, I don’t think my neighbors discourage people from stopping as they shoot by on the road. I was of course referring to strangers speeding by on their own individual business. They have no occasion to stop, so they don’t. Come to think of it, I don’t think I’m disappointed with this fact! I think in Thoreau’s time people moved at a slower pace and had more time for a curious interest in the pond and the little cabin. Also perhaps, many were really thirsty.

Thoreau by not paying his poll tax elevated himself to sainthood so far as our libertarian element is concern. The evil great evil of the poll tax is its use in the 20th century to keep the poor and particularly the minority poor from voting. This was because it was enforced only by not allowing the non-payer the right to vote. I don’t know whether Thoreau could vote, but at least his jailing suggests it was enforced against all. People generally today in this “Soak the rich” time don’t find the poll tax desirable as a revenue raising measure as in the UK in the late 1980 when such a tax cost Margaret Thatcher her popularity gained from the Falklands victory and the great economic recover after 35 years of political stagnation.

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 7, 2002 - 06:12 pm
Jonathan have you found a swim in natural water is relaxing and wipes the mind of all thought -- I know when I am completely overwhelmed and the weather is warm, I take myself down to the creek if it is still running and lay or sit or at times when the creek is deep enough I even swim in it. Total bliss! And when we're at the coast watching the waves crash, they are so hypnotic that all thought is wiped-out. I slice along swimming in a pool but there is always the lookout for a child or another swimmer unless I'm in the lap lane. Sometimes I just do not want to do laps and so I don't find swimming in a pool to be the youth rejuvenator that natural water offers.

Hmmm you had me going there over watching the Hawks - than I realized - my heart soars with the hawks especially in summer when they are so high against the intense heat of a morning yet unclouded blue sky -- but my thoughts hmmm my thoughts do not circle - soar - then descend approach and part like the ballet in the sky riding on the thermal’s updraft. My heart yes, but my thinking process if it were to be likened to the animal world is more like a puma -- I need a wider home territory with crags, heights, forests and pastures to explore. I go after a thought as if it were pray and ingest it till I can gnaw on the bones. In this process I'm more of an independent and become annoyed with authority directed thinking as well as, group learning when the goal is to agree with an interpretation of a universal law. I find ambiguity more difficult to live with but, I am more comfortable with ambiguous thoughts and ultimate behavior as the outcome to thought. Riding the thermals is too confining and dependent, like playing within a controlled environment. Reminds me of a classroom exercise where as, I seem to pick up a scent in often some obscure word or phrase and 'need' to snake among the crags till I find the source. Than I often drag the carcass back to share it with my family which is how I see community.

Thanks Jonathan for the question which gave me an opportunity to bring into my conscious mind who I am. Had you decided how your thinking, your thoughts are similar to any bird or animal?

Mal I love this from your essay;
"Mama told me I'd get sick from mixing pickles and milk, but I made up my mind I wouldn't, and I didn't."
and the seeds of stubborn independence sprouted early -- hehehe

Wow Harold I never thought to look at my annual electricity expense - Harold do you grow or raise anything on your land or do you lease it out to hunters? Interesting how folks today seldom saunter over or stop at the gate to visit a neighbor but are h--- bent to get to town. We have become so selective with technology allowing us to choose where we go, what we listen to, what and when we eat various foods, on and on. Seems to me we look favorably on satisfying 'what's next,' like a trip to town, rather than taking the marrow out of 'what surrounds us now.'

More and more as I read this book I'm making the connection that living in the wood is similar to meditating, which is balanced by not only chopping wood and hauling water but, by mingling with community; regardless a chance soul also contemplating in the woods or a busy group engaged in sharing information, where I share my genious, as Mal brought to our attention, and where I can buy and sell my wares.

Jonathan
May 7, 2002 - 06:56 pm
Harold, congratulations on your fine Home Page. La Casita, with its fine location in the country, and the Pond, looks like a dream to some of us. And more than 5000 have stopped by!, with envy and admiration. Everything about your place exudes hospitality.

Of course no one would expect or want the stranger speeding by to stop. I seemed to recall your saying something in another discussion some time ago that your neighbor called the State Trooper when he saw a suspicious vehicle on your drive. Perhaps I was mistaken.

Jonathan

Jonathan
May 7, 2002 - 07:39 pm
Barbara...give me rivers and ponds anyday for that cleansing, mind clearing swim. What I wouldn't give to revisit that muddy little swimming hole with my chums. I'm trying to remember. No, I don't recall too many thoughts. It was all sensation.

I'm cogitating a response to your amazing description of the outer reaches of independent thought. My immediate, impulsive reaction is Take me with you! I love heights. I must admit, however, that I have no reluctance when it comes to riding a thermal. It's the ladder to the leap.

Jonathan

BaBi
May 8, 2002 - 09:27 am
Ah, me. I envy you who had cool, clean ponds or snug, safe swimming holes to cavort in. Outside of the community swimming pools (remember walking through the disinfectant?), we had two options. One was the beach at Galveston,which was loads of fun but guaranteed to give me a ba-a-ad sunburn. The other was a swimming spot called Magnolia Gardens on the San Jacinto River. It was very popular, and fine as long as one stayed within the designated swimming area. But there were always cocky and overconfident souls who felt they could swim across the swift-flowing river itself. I don't think a summer went by that someone didn't drown there. They finally closed the place down entirely.

In Texas, clear water where you can see to the bottom is so prized, there is a profitable business of glass-bottomed boats to take people out on the water just to look at it. And in West Texas, even rain is so scarce that teachers have to demonstrate what it is like with a garden hose to students who have never seen it. (I know you've heard that one before, but it has actually happened.)..Babi

Harold Arnold
May 8, 2002 - 10:58 am
Thank you Jonathan for the kind words on the home page. The incident you mentioned was the famous police raid on my place last November. I’ll say something about it but first let me relate it to our Thoreau, Walden discussion.

In my reading of Walden I have been watching for comment from Thoreau concerning his experience with crime at Walden while he lived there. In the Chapter, “The Village Thoreau does make a brief reference to the his experience when after his overnight incarceration he says:
”…..I was released the next day, obtained my mended shoe, and returned to the woods in season to get my dinner of huckleberries on Fair-Haven Hill. I was never molested by any person but those who represent the state. I had no lock nor bolt but for the desk which held my papers, not even a nail to put over my latch or windows. I never fastened my door night or day, though I was to be absent several days; not even when the next fall I spent a fortnight in the woods of Maine. And yet my house was more respected than if it had been surrounded by a file of soldiers.


Well Walden most certainly was not a high crime area, and thank God my area too can hardly be considered a crime hot spot. A rather decent Sony Boom Box AM//FM with dual tape player/recorder has grown old setting on a shelf in the Gazebo for the past 7 years. But you may rest assured, I always lock my doors when I leave even for a few hours as crime does occur in this area as the stories in just about any local paper is likely to report, So far (knock on wood) I have been spared!

There have been two incidents when the police had occasion to visit me here. The first was on a late fall night about 1985 when after working late I arrived home about 11:00 PM and sitting on my porch listening to a Leonard Cohen tape, I noticed a flashing red light coming up the driveway. It was a deputy sheriff who informed me they had just flushed a burglar from the home about a quarter of a mile east of me. He continued with the disconcerting news that they had taken refuge in the mesquite pasture just east of me. The officer asked me to call the neighbor on my other side, gave me a telephone number to call if anything unusual happened and he left.

After an unsuccessful attempt to call the neighbor due to a busy single my dog Bum started loud barking on my porch. Bum was a little 30-pound cocker spaniel type dog. From the kitchen door window I saw Bum on the edge of the porch barking his head off. I had never seen him more intense on full point; fangs exposed with drops of salvia falling to the floor. That was enough for me, and I at once called the number.

Within minutes the road was alive with red lights and not long after I heard a bull horn from the other side of the fence, we know where you are, come out with your hands up now! Apparently they did as I soon heard the cars leaving the scene. Later I found it was a husband and wife burglary team that had been operating in the county. I suspect they spent quite some time after that as guests at one of our many penal campuses

The great police raid that Jonathan mentioned came last November when I contracted for the installation of siding on my house. The contractor arrived one Tuesday morning about 8:30 in an immense van pulling a very large extra wide trailer. They could hardly get it through my gate. After much difficulty they squeezed it in and the foreman and I surrounded by the crew of four or five Hispanic workers were discussing matters relative to the work when I was suddenly aware they all had their hands in the air. The were all saying in Spanish and English something like the “Owner, he’s here!,” and as best they could with their hands up, they were pointing at me. I finally belatedly got an idea of what was going on when I noted the police officer type in the driveway some 30 feet away with a rifle at the ready pointed in our direction. They were still shouting about the owner being here. Somehow it never occurred to me to raise my hands and somehow an explanatory dialog was begun resolving the impasse.

It seems someone, perhaps a passer by on the road with a cell phone observing the entry of the van and huge trailer had concluded they were burglars intending to strip the place clean and had called 911. I’ll sure say that the local sheriff responded fast with at least two units on the scene. The deputy did accept the explanation, but did require that I go get my drivers license from the house with its picture to prove my residency.

When the crew finished the work 3 days later they assured me that this was one job they would always remember.

Harold Arnold
May 8, 2002 - 11:31 am
I have noticed that several times when I have drafted posts using Microsoft Word containing moderately long quotations from Thoreau that Microsoft seems to consider our author a rather poor wordsmith. On all occasions just about the whole quoted passage will be underscored in blue indicating the software’s dissatisfaction with Thoreau’s sentence structure. I am sure this would come as no great concern to Thoreau and of course I would not make changes in a quotation. Our today’s language has undergone a century and a half of evolutionary change since Thoreau as the program certainly indicates.

While my general writing does not draw anywhere near the blue underscore that the Thoreau quotations receive, I do frequently get blue warning. Most of mine are related to the use of the passive voice, that I generally accept by making the change, but quite often there are true sentences complete with subject and predicate judged by the program to be fragments and incomplete. I have concluded that the program on this account is far from perfect. But I truly love Microsoft word as it makes my terrible typing and poor spelling, at least passable

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 8, 2002 - 01:27 pm
Oh my what a great group of posts - where to begin -

Jonathan I need to thank you also - with your post suggesting Harold's Home Page I quickly took a gander and behold photos galore - Harold's I couldn't find the one that I remember you had shared of the gazebo and I remember once you shared one of turkey's that made a surprise call. Your site is wonderful and I loved the old photos you included of the Alamo at the turn of the last century.

Now that I see you were an economic analyst of course it makes sense that you would know how you spend every penny and therefore having a handle on the annual cost of fuel would be a natural for you - but lesson learned - it would be a great exercise for me to calculate my annual costs in various categories and the percent of my income they represent.

Your "raid" stories are wonderful - what a great recommendation and approval for the Sequin police - I remember years ago being at Camp Texlake, the Girl Scout Camp out in Spicewood, and the sheriff had to come from Oak Hill in Austin - for about 30 minutes of his 45 minute trip we could hear the siren as he traveled 71 West and down the Paleface road. All the time there were about 10 of us, all women, holding a trespasser with his rifle at bay using broomsticks and tent poles. Even the Sheriff laughed after he had the guy handcuffed but we were also make aware we better plan on tackling things ourselves if the Sheriff was at the other end of the his area so busy earning money by giving out speeding tickets to travelers on their way into Austin.

Babi what part of Texas is your home? I remember once before you mentioned you were a Texan - that makes three of us who are reading this book. Babi have you ever visited Krause’s Springs in Spicewood - oh talk about clear and cold and just wonderful - the rocks form natural pools when the water is high and all the water comes down to a bluff overlooking Cypress Creek where there is a small waterfalls. Growing out of the cliff and hanging over the sides are every kind of fern you can imagine. There is a spring-fed swimming pool that Mr. Krause empties every evening and then below that is the creek, lined with towering cypress trees where he has over the years added picnic tables and stone fire-pits. He only charges $2.50 and $2 for kids. He used to charge by the car and now by the person. Babi If you ever decide to visit Krause’s Springs let me know - I would love to meet you out there.

Jonathan I loved your remark “It's the ladder to the leap.” Interesting how the whole concept of riding the Thermals can have all sorts of metaphors. I’m remembering something that I cannot find but it had something to do with being the warm air under someone’s flying kite.

Oh yes, and Harold I could not agree with you more about ‘Word’ - such a love/hate relationship we have - I think the writing concepts built into ‘Word’ are to fit a business like marketing type language that we are taught today as valuable to persuade folks rather than the lyrical language some of thrive on.

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 8, 2002 - 01:28 pm
I’ve been been very busy at work the last two days and haven’t had time to do some of the research I like to get into while reading - but amazing I did find this that I never knew - I thought what the heck lets look up Icarus - Well I had no idea that it was a term Cabet used when he started up his utopian communities in the 1840s. One of Étienne Cabet’s better efforts was in Nauvoo, Illinois and here is a link to the whole long effort:
In 1847 Cabet issued a call, “Forward to Icarie.” France was crowded, worn-out with a despotic government, and would never permit the establishment of modern communities, which soon would, by their example, revolutionize the society. In America it would be possible to build a communist colony of ten or twenty thousand people on the frontier, and in a few years millions would be converted. The response was tremendous. He was deluged with gifts, pledges, and recruits.

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 8, 2002 - 01:43 pm
Can any of you help me with this one - I bet you can Mal - I am usually pretty good with metaphors and I get part of this but some of it is alluding me.

This much I get
"...To earn their Walden by the turning of a cock or drawing of a plug! That devilish Iron Horse, whose ear-rending neigh is heard throughout town, has muddied the Boiling Springs with his foot, and he it is that has browsed off all the woods on Walden shore; that Trojan horse, with a thousand men in his belly, intro duced by mercenary Greeks!
Ok so the railroad is not only an Iron Horse but the needs of the railroad which include water and wood is taking from nature and the whole industry is like a Trojan horse with thousands of men involved that was introduced as a mercenary gift to man - Now it is this next bit I just do not get - help! help!
Where is the country's champion, the Moore of Moore Hall, to meet him at the Deep Cut and thrust an avenging lance between the ribs of the bloated pest?
I'm off to look up Moore Hall and maybe that will help. But "Deep Cut" I know when a train is built through a forested mountain ared they call it a "Cut," but I didn't understand that Concord and in particular the area around Walden was a mountainious area.

Harold Arnold
May 8, 2002 - 03:10 pm
My annotated edition has the following explanation of "Moore of Moore Hall" where the term is used in the Chapter entitled, “Ponds”:
Moor of Moore Hall. The hero who slew the dragon in Thomas Percy's Reliques of Ancient English Poetry (1765) Journal Ibid.


Ibid appears to relate to the Journal entry for June 17 1853. Elsewhere under major chronological events of Thoreau’s life, there is no mention of any specific date in June 1853 date except there is a general entry for the month of June 1853 that reads:
Thoreau and Channing make several short trips on the river near Concord. And Thoreau often revisits Walden Pond.


Thoreau's reference, "that devilish Iron Horse" carries the following interesting comment:
It finally comes out that Thoreau was less enamored with the railroad than he seemed to be. Journal June 17, 1853; V, 266. Or perhaps he had changed his mind about it.

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 8, 2002 - 03:14 pm
Whoops Harold we must have been posting at the same time - Ok let me look up the reference that you have in your annotated edition - this is great - thanks for that informaiton - 1765 poem Hmmm I wonder if that has anything to do with Moore Hall in Ireland.

All these colleges, universities have a Moore Hall: UCLA - Mississippe State - Duke - Mills College - Western Michigan State - Salve Regina University - University of North Carolina - Amherst - I think many of these Moore Halls may be named for a 20th century figure, Cornelius Moore, Democrat to National Convention from Rhode Island -

George Moore of Moore Hall a novelist of the Irish Revival but alas, born 1852 - won't work but look, he is from Moore Hall.

Aha - we are getting someplace - "The Lynchs, along with Browns of Westport House and the Moores of Moore Hall chartered the ship the 'Martha Washington' to bring corn meal from America for their tenants. (during the famine 1840s)

A bit more "Ballinrobe is one of the oldest towns in County Mayo. Established as a borough in the wake of the Norman conquest of the thirteenth century, this beautiful and historical town is bordered by Cong to the South, Lough Mask to the West, and Lough Carra and Moore Hall to the North."

Getting closer - here is a photo of Moore Hall Woods

Ok this is about George Moore that we already know was born too late to be the issue of the Moore at Moore Hall that Thoreau was speaking but the site gives us a bit more information about Moore Hall

Buildings at Risk says that Moore Hall is an 18th century Country House Ruin.

FOUND IT! FOUND IT! In a site giving the Coat of Arms of the Moore, More, O'Moore, O'More
In Connacht, Moore Hall was built in 1795 by George Moore, whose antecedents had fled to Europe with the "Wild Geese". George had done well in the wine trade in Spain and was able to return home to build his mansion at Ballyglass in County Mayo. George's son, John Moore, joined the United Irishmen and, when the French General Humbert landed at Killala in 1798 and declared Connacht a republic, he made John Moore its first, and last, president. The rising was quelled by the English and John, a gentle man, was jailed in Waterford where he died. The book, The Year of the French, is based on this episode. John's brother, George Henry Moore, is best remembered because he owned the horse, Croagh Patrick, which won the Stewart's Cup at Goodwood. George Augustus Moore (1852 - 1933), the novelist, was George's eldest son.


I remember reading The Year of the French, - great book - I wonder if I still have it--

OK so the Moores of Moore Hall were Ireland's champion not only during the 'Great Hunger' but also, although English, George senior and builder of Moore Hall was supporting Irish Independence.

Interesting metaphore in that as an Englishman helping the Irish he, like the railroad, was aiding people but, he was still an intruder.

It would fits since one of the sites listing Irish Literature in American speaks fondly of Thoreau as having spoken of the Irish migration to Mass. during the 'Great Hunger.' The site goes on to say there was Irishmen writing literature in America before Thoreau's book. Somehow it must have been known that Thoreau was for Ireland and maybe it was just this line about the Moore of Moore Hall that gave them that information.

Now what is this "Deep Cut"?!? Unless any laying of track through the woods where many trees are cut down is called a "Cut."

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 8, 2002 - 03:32 pm
Here is the book of Ancient Poems etc. In 1846, the Percy Society issued to its members a volume entitled Ancient Poems, Ballads, and Songs of the Peasantry of England, edited by Mr. James Henry Dixon.

Now to find the one that talks about killing a dragon at Moore Hall.

Malryn (Mal)
May 8, 2002 - 04:03 pm

The Tale of the Dragon of Wantley

Nellie Vrolyk
May 8, 2002 - 04:23 pm
That is quite a humorous tale!

Some words from The Village that caught my attention:
Signs were hung on all sides to allure him; some to catch him by the appetite, as the tavern and victualling cellar; some by the fancy, as the dry goods store and the jeweler's; and others by the hair or the feet or the skirts, as the barber, the shoe-maker, or the tailor. ...


This is even more the case when you visit any town, village, or city today. We are regaled by signs which allure us and those signs even come into our homes in the form of TV ads and ads on web sites and on the radio.

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 8, 2002 - 04:29 pm
Tariffic Mal you must use a great search engine - mine didn't come up with such a clear reference - I love it (the poem) though don’t you - it is all there in the poem
Trojan horse,
Some say he ate up trees;
For from his nose a smoke arose,

O save us all, Moore of Moore hall,
Thou peerless Knight of these woods;
Do but slay this Dragon, who won't leave us a rag on,



Mal do you have any other information about the poem - is it an old Ballad collected by Percy or is there any dates attributed to the poem or even an author??????

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 8, 2002 - 04:33 pm
Nellie hehe yes allure - the glories of marketing through advertising was alive and well even in 1848 wasn't it.

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 8, 2002 - 05:17 pm
Stories To Tell To Children - THE PLATT & PECK CO. Copyright 1898,

Evidently it is has been made into a musical Opera - here is a site the features the story as as Musical production

A condensed version of the rhymed account given by Harland and Wilkinson in LEGENDS AND TRADITIONS OF LANCASHIRE is representative.

"Here is another that explains that More of More Hall attacks the Dragon of Wantly as it comes to drink from a well," includes graphic and further explains that - holy wells and spring have been featured in stories with dragons for thousand of years.
The legend was recorded in a lighthearted ballad dating from 1699.

Some say that the whole tale is a satire based on a lawsuit over tithes in the reign of James 1. The dragon being Sir Frances Wortley, who held the disputed tithes, and More being the Attourney who set a lawsuit against him on behalf of nearby gentry. The spiked armour being a document full of names and seals of men pledged to oppose Wortley.

However, several motifs in the tale, such as the spiked armour, the well, and the (almost) invulnerable dragon argue that the 1699 poem was adapted from a far more ancient legend. Wantley, it seems, may once have had a very real dragon.

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 9, 2002 - 12:33 am
What did you like best about the Baker Farm chapter and Why? What do you think he was trying to tell us when he included the bit about the Irish family and their inability to live without money but with greater freedom than he observed they were experiencing? What do you think the bit about the lack of luck as they changed seats while fishing was all about?

Malryn (Mal)
May 9, 2002 - 06:24 am
I use Google, Barbara, and follow clues. I've learned over the years that the simpler my keywords are, the easier it is to get from Point A to Point B.

I especially like the description of plants and trees in the beginning of this chapter. "Instead of calling on some scholar, I paid many a visit to particular trees."

Thoreau is a snob and looks down on the Irish, a very common point-of-view in Massachusetts at that time. "One who visited me declared that the shadows of some Irishmen before him had no halo above them."

Thoreau also seems here to believe the myth about the Luck of the Irish (bad). Thoreau's luck, intelligence, opportunities, etc. were good, and those followed him when he changed seats in the boat, as Field's lack of luck and lack of intelligence and opportunities followed him.

"But alas! the culture of an Irishman is an enterprise to be undertaken with a sort of moral bog hoe." Bah humbug, I say. Thoreau here has the attitude of "Be like me and do as I do, or you're no cotton-pickin' good." This is Thoreau as I dislike him most.

Mal

BaBi
May 9, 2002 - 11:39 am
Barbara, I live in the Houston area. I don't know where Spicewood is, but your description of Krause's Spring makes me long to see it. Please do tell me where Spicewood is located. If I do ever get a chance to go there, I'll be sure to let you know.

Mal, did you notice. Henry David finally mentioned a loon, the single "annual loon" of Walden Pond. They must have been much less common in that area, or perhaps at that time. ..Babi

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 9, 2002 - 01:29 pm
Mal so that was what all that luck and the change boat seat was all about - huh I would never have guessed. And now I guess he was really inferring "Poor John Field" did not have the mental capacity to be anything other than poor.

In one respect he is correct in that it seems to me the poorer you are the more dependent you are on others for survival. Or maybe it is the poorer the less choices you have. Well that would be a whole think through based on living today or then and what simplicity would look like.

Babi Spicewood is west of Austin - from Houston you could take I-10 to Columbus and than follow 71 all the way or if you are in north Houston take 290 and when you hit Austin either take I-35 or the mopac south to South 290 and 71 - just out of Austin, so that it appears now to be part of Austin, is Oak Hill where 290 and 71 split and you take 71 - Spicewood is before you get to 281 the goes north from San Antonio past the airport and on to Lampases, Stephenville and on to I-20 west of Fort Worth. Babi it is a trip but I have met many a family from Houston visiting Krause's Springs for the day. Spicewood is about 45 minutes out of Austin, than add whatever time it takes you to drive to Austin.

There is even a Bed and Breakfast in the area now and only about 15 minutes away from Marble Falls which is on the north shore of where Inks and lake Travis meet. There is a wild animal farm out that way now as well as, and probably only about an hours drive over to, Fredricksburg the German community and of course the LBJ ranch in Stonewall. - Could be a great little overnight holiday.

In the chapter about the ponds I loved how he said "White pond and Walden are great crystals on the surface of the earth, Lakes of Light." He really loved his woods didn't he "...and rippling with light, so soft, and green, and shady, that the Druids would have forsaken their oaks to worship in them;"

In I think the chapter on Ponds he spoke several times of a striker. I only recently learned what they were. I always noticed these bugs that seemed to walk on water with about 6 legs - they looked some like a spider and than not like a spider but always they seemed to skate across the water. Well I finally bought a book about everything that grows or is in the pond and creeks and sure enough there was my mystery bug -- a strike.

Mal or Babi have either of you ever seen a loon. I'm remembering the movie with Henry Fonda and that was my first introductions to a loon but I have never seen or heard one is real life.

BaBi
May 9, 2002 - 02:19 pm
Barbara, I have copied your directions and suggestions to my notepad. Now all I have to do is talk my daughter into joining me for an overnight or weekend trip up that way.

I don't think I have ever actually seen a loon, but I well remember seeing and hearing them on some television special years ago. I found the sound haunting. ..Babi

Malryn (Mal)
May 9, 2002 - 02:26 pm
I've seen many, many loons, of course, since they love the cold waters in northern New England. They're fun to watch. They dive down for a fish, then come up yards and yards and yards away from where they went in the water. The cry of a loon is not just haunting, it's downright frightening on a dark, dark night at a lake in Maine.

I'm certain Jonathan has seen a lot of loons (not me, Jonathan, dear -- the bird!). He's hiked up a few mountains in the Adirondacks and camped by lakes. Right, Mr. Mountain Man? Maybe he's even seen some in Maine, who knows?

Mal

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 10, 2002 - 03:40 am
aha - I think I figured out some of what Henry David is trying to do while not only writing Walden but by this exercise in asceticism building and living in his cabin at Walden's Pond.

We know he read the Greeks - well Socrates said, "the unexamined life is not worth living." and Plato from the Apology
"...I have deliberately not led a quiet life but have neglected what occupies most people: wealth, household affairs, the position of general or public orator or the other offices, the political clubs and factions that exist in the city. I thought myself too honest to survive if I occupied myself with those things.

I did not follow that path that would have made me of no use either to you or to myself, but I went to each of you privately and conferred upon him what I say in the greatest benefit, by persuading him not to care for any of his belongings before caring that he himself should be as good and as wise as possible, not to care for the city's possessions more than for the city itself, and to care for other things in the same way.

What do I deserve for being such a Man? Some good, gentleman of the jury, if I must truly make an assessment according to my deserts, and something suitable."
And so we have Henry David neglecting "what occupies most people: wealth, household affairs, the position of general or public orator or the other offices, the political clubs and factions that exist in the city" - and in addition caring for himself rather than belongings while he discovers what is good and works on becoming wise.

Whether we agree that he has or not become wise I think is beside the point - he is attempting to hone his values although some of them are stuck in place, time, socio-economic status and find his core being.

What do you think, did his writing about nature set the mood of these chapters? Do you think the discription of nature advance the emotions Thoreau was trying to paint? By describing his natural surroundings do you think he gave information linking the ethical and social aspects of the Concord or even the greater human community or even his close community of those visiting him at the pond?

Malryn (Mal)
May 10, 2002 - 06:24 am
Henry David Thoreau was not alone in what he thought and wrote. You'll find similar things in writing by Emerson, William Ellery Channing, George Ripley, Bronson Alcott, Margaret Fuller and other followers of Transcendentalism. All of these people had a great interest in Nature because Nature is a big part of what Transcendentalism is about.

Margaret Fuller is a woman I've been interested in for a long time. She not only started The Dial, she was the first woman editor of a newspaper. She wrote among other things Summer on the Lakes (1844), reviews, as well as articles on other subjects. In 1843, The Dial published her essay The Great Lawsuit: Man versus Men, Woman versus Women in which she called for women's equality.

These people were rebels in a way. Thoreau carried his rebellion to a bit of an extreme by living out of Concord society at Walden for two years, but part of that act was because he didn't like to work at a regular job or to be restricted by any sort of "governing" except his own.

Saying "out of society" about Thoreau is inaccurate because he went into town all the time and associated with Emerson, his family and other people in town. I am reminded of people who moved out of the city to a country setting like the one where I lived in New York. Six miles from a town, it was fifty-two miles north of New York City, away from the hustle and bustle, but not that far away that men could not commute by train to the city and women weren't able to go to New York or into town any time the opportunity arose.

Thoreau describes Concord, as you know. He also describes Boston and other places. Concord's community was tiny and not typical of other Massachusetts towns at the time. If only you could get your hands on Van Wyck Brooks' book, The Flowering of New England, you'd have a much better idea of what I mean about Transcendentalists and this time in New England's history.

Mal

BaBi
May 10, 2002 - 08:13 am
With apologies to Henry David, whose 'wordsmanship' I greatly enjoy and admire, I must complain that he is insisting on telling me far more about ponds than I ever wanted to know. I become bogged down, I look with despair on the pages still remaining in this chapter, and decide to come back to it another time when I have more leisure. I will head for Baker's Farm without more ado on the subject of every pond Henry ever visited! ....Babi

LouiseJEvans
May 11, 2002 - 11:06 am
I remember seeing and hearing Loons when as a child I went camping in New Hampshire. They sound like they are laughing.

I also heard as a child that there once were signs on Boston's bars saying "No Dogs or Irish allowed."

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 11, 2002 - 02:27 pm
WELCOME Louise You certainly knew where you stood when selective OKness was on signs for all the world to see and read - now it is hidden in these subtle messages - not even looks or tone of voice betray the judging of 'if you are OK' - listening to Connan O'Brian on a few occassions evidently he still smarts under the oppression of not being OK as an Irish family from someplace near Brookline Mass.

Loughing loons ahuh - seems to me I've heard that expression or read it someplace.

Mal I love it - just love it - Henry David Thoreau one of our first suburbanites. Hahaha maybe the lack of imagination that is attached the the suburban mentality started with Thoreau if as you say he borrowed much of his thinking from Emerson. I love it - the more I think on it the more the metaphors fly --

Babi I know what you mean about the discription of nature in The Pond. It got to me after a bit and I scanned the pages till I got to the section where he discribed the rainstorm and the logs in the Pond as the Pond boats. I think the problem was there was nothing lyrical about all that discription and with our ability to see things on TV or in a photo we are now impatient with all that flat discription.

I loved the mental picture I had of him during the rain in Baker Farm when he first sought shelter under the tree using branches and his hanky as protection from the rain. I wondered today how many of us would feel comfortable seeking shelter from some disaster in the home of someone that lived in a part of town we consider scubby.

Babi Tell us What you like best about the Baker Farm chapter?

Nellie Vrolyk
May 11, 2002 - 05:54 pm
I wouldn't feel comfortable asking for or taking shelter in any strange home. And nowadays I think most people would be as uneasy to have a stranger in their home as the stranger -me- would be uneasy to be there.

Jonathan
May 12, 2002 - 08:03 am
I was a little disappointed with chapter 9. He could have said so much more about ponds. Perhaps Thoreau, like me, suffered from writer's block now and then. I liked the part about being safe from robbers. The poor do have some things going for them.

Jonathan

BaBi
May 12, 2002 - 12:34 pm
As to "Baker Farm", I fear that is a pretty bad poem Thoreau is quoting. I find myself wondering if he wrote it himself.

The chapter has furthered my education. In referring to the Irishman as both "hard-working" and "shiftless", Mr. T. had me stymied. I had always thought the two were contradictory; that shiftless meant lazy. Having resorted to my dictionary, I find I was mistaken. Shiftless is used in the sense that "make shift" is; ie., finding a alternative means. A shiftless person was one who had no alternative means, or the ones he had tried were unsuccessful.

Henry David seems somewhat miffed that the Irishman failed to benefit from all the fine wisdom and advice offered him. His closing words on the subject were, to my mind, haughty and snide. ..Babi

Nellie Vrolyk
May 12, 2002 - 02:55 pm
Something I liked:

"We should come home from far, from adventures, and perils, and discoveries every day, with new experience and character."

I wish that this could be. But one doesn't necessarily have to go far to find adventure and perils; those things can often be found close to home and even in the home sometimes. Discoveries too can be made in your own backyard.

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 12, 2002 - 04:53 pm
Lovely Nellie yes, so true - just being open to seeing the world through the eyes of "adventures, and perils, and discoveries every day"...even peril, which sounds so ominous is simply being open to risk, to loss. That loss can accompany dangerious circumstances but than everytime we choose a thing, a person, an event we may experience peril or, as the dictionary gives one of the explanations, a loss. A lot of food for thought Nellie - thanks for bringing that quote to our attention which actually ties in with your earlier post. It is a risk to turn to or help a stranger in today's world isn't it. And as a result of our need to be cautious I wonder how many discoveries we are loosing out on. Reminds me of an old saying I collected at one time, "Be careful what you are walling in and what your are walling out."

Babi wow and so 'shiftless' is not having an alternative means -- hmm sounds like we put a lot of stock into creative problem solving and if you lack the ability to alternatively solve problems you are shiftless. I wonder if other languages have a direct translation with a similar definiation for shiftless.

Jonathan you are just going to have to elaberate on that for us because some of us thought he just had too much to say about ponds...hehehe

I must say I couldn't figure out where he was going with all that about nature around and in the pond and when he was choosing the best color blue to discribe the pond is about when my eyes sort of glazed over.

I did learn something fun though - I had never seen the word ichthyologist used and when I started some searches I found this bit; among a large school of spawning fish was dropped a microphone and with a long study learned was "The auditory portion of the midbrain uses the acoustic qualities of all the noise to isolate one signal it is programmed to recognize as potentially interesting." With this noted is how fish choose which particular fish to follow and fertilize those eggs. Now they have tracked enough data to suggest that at a large (cocktail) party people pair up because of picking out the œcoustical qualities that signal an interest. And so 'love at first sight' may actually be 'love at first hearing.'

Some how this weeks chapters didn't grab me as others had -- let us see what we shall see with next weeks Thoreau offerings.

Malryn (Mal)
May 13, 2002 - 07:34 am
"Our whole life is startlingly moral. There is never an instant's truce between virtue and vice. Goodness is the only investment that never fails."

"Is it not a reproach that man is a carnivorous animal?"

"Beside, there is something essentially unclean about this diet and all flesh."



"I believe that every man who has been earnest to preserve his higher or poetic faculties in the best condition has been particularly inclined to abstain from animal food."

"Chastity is the flowering of man and what we call Genius."
So Thoreau preaches his Higher Laws about the beast vs spirituality. He forgives the beast a bit in the beginning of the chapter by saying, "Thus, even in civilized communities, the embryo man passes through the hunter stage of development", but that doesn't last long.

What he's saying in this chapter is a combination of Oriental philosophies -- Hindu, Buddhist, Yoga and others, plus some Christianity. Notice the first quote above.

Thoreau preaches that perfection can only be achieved by ridding oneself of appetite and desire. Again he shows his intolerance of other ways of living and thought besides his own when he speaks of John Farmer.

Did Thoreau meet his own standards and obey his own laws? I'm not sure, but judging by what I've read about him, I'd say no.

Mal

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 13, 2002 - 08:40 am
Wow Mal you were so easily able to 'hook' into his moral servitude and compare it to religious Philosophies.

You would think, I would be used to his preaching by now but he still can pull my chain -- at least now I can smile when I realize how I am reacting.

I did think it was an interesting thought that when the flute like music from our soul stirs us, our often response is, "to practice some austerity."

I really started to think on that when all of a sudden it occured to me John Farmer my foot, isn't that what our man has done -- he wanted an experience that allowed him to 'suck the marrow' out of life -- in order to accomplish that goal he rids himself of all but the most basic of goods and foods that allows him to survive -- I remember having a conversations with someone along those lines -- how when times are hard we more easily think how to 'pull in our belt' as the saying goes, rather than, put our focus and energy into enlarging our capital and our base, the source of our wealth. Much like a drowning man who clutches the water rather than relaxing and floating to the top.

The bit that got my attention was the 'Hook' bit
"The governer and his council faintly remember the pond, for they went a-fishing there when they were boys; but now they are too old and dignified to go a-fishing, and so they know it no more for ever. Yet even they expect to go to heaven at last. If the legislature regards it, it is chiefly to regulate the number of hooks to be used there; but they know nothing about the hook of hooks with which to angle of the pond itself, impaling the legislature for a bait."
I am not sure here what the "hook of hooks" is -- it sure seems to me that in order to show they are of value -'look what I have done, putting limits on...(whatever) for your protection so that you will vote for me again' kind of value - governers and their council do a lot of impaling of legislatures, using them for bait. I think Thoreau was saying something here that the intrinsic values learned while fishing on a pond are not reflected upon by those older and in power. But again I am lost as to what he is refering by the phrase "hook of hooks."

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 13, 2002 - 08:56 am
I wonder if Thoreau's spelling is off again and rather than Thseng-tseu he means Tseng Tsu - if so, here is a site with the reference to Tseng-Tsu and Confucius

Malryn (Mal)
May 13, 2002 - 09:03 am

"Yet even they (the government) expect to go to heaven at last. If the legislature regards it, it is chiefly to regulate the number of hooks to be used there; but they know nothing about the hook of hooks with which to angle for the pond itself, impaling the legislature for a bait. Thus, even in civilized communities, the embryo man passes through the hunter stage of development."
I read this to mean that the government (which Thoreau detests) is still in the embryonic hunter-beast stage which allows it to make a law about the number of hooks used and the number of fish caught, but has not reached the transcendent spiritual stage which allows them "to fish for the pond", or go beyond the needs and appetites of the beast. I don't believe the hook of hooks means anything more than the key to a superior Thoreau kind of spiritual view of life.

Mal

BaBi
May 13, 2002 - 09:11 am
I am getting mixed signals from Mr. T, here. Early on in this chapter he says, "I found in myself, and still find(italics mine), an instinct toward a higher, or, as it is named, spiritual life, as do most men, and another toward a primitive rank and savage one, and I reverence them both."

How are we to reconcile his (still present) reverence toward a rank, savage life with all the fine, civilized principles which Mal cited for us? How to exlain his feelings, in "late years" of loss of self-respect whenever he fishes? I can only suppose that as he grew older, he found his youthful "primitive and savage" life less admirable. If so, I would think that a pity. The adventures of one's youth (assuming they were not of a harmful nature) should be treasured memories for one's age. Ah, well, perhaps as I read on, what Henry David is saying will become clearer. ...Babi

Malryn (Mal)
May 13, 2002 - 09:20 am
Thoreau uses old-fashioned 19th century spelling of foreign names. The version I'm reading says he means "Meng-tse, 372?-287? B.C. Chinese philosopher, follower of Confucius."
Mal

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 13, 2002 - 10:43 am
Ok Mal I am really feeling dense here but what do you and Thoreau mean by "fishing for the Pond" - I think I got it now that the 'Hook of Hooks' is the simple concept of counting the number of hooks and bagging limits but what does 'fishing for the pond' mean?

Babi he sure does change with the wind doesn't he - one minute he finds nothing admirable about the older citizen's views and than he finds the views of youth to be lacking in sensabilities. Ah so - sort of a will o' the wisp with his arguments - after watching the PBS Pioneer series where three families try to recreate 1883 life in Montana I can see being a vegitarian is fine when there is produce in your root celler and the garden has produced a harvest but until that occurs you better be a good hunter and fisherman in order to survive. I think Thoreau in the 1840s is not facing the lifestyle of the frontier.

Mal Need to run now so I do not have time just now to look up Meng-Tse but I will tonight. Thanks for the tip.

Malryn (Mal)
May 13, 2002 - 11:31 am
Barbara, all the petty politicians do is count the fish hooks and fish and set regulations. They can't see the Big Hook of Transcendence (hook of hooks) from beast (hunter) to spirituality which is needed to "angle" (see) the whole pond. The pond is a metaphor for Nature and Life as Thoreau sees them. That's how I read it, anyway.

Mal

Jonathan
May 13, 2002 - 09:54 pm
BaBi, I'm not so sure that it will become any clearer as we read on. I think we will just have to help Thoreau sort himself out. He doesn't, imo, seem to really understand himself; but it's not for not trying. In fact, I really enjoy trying to get the thread of his thoughts in this chapter, in seeing the stages of his spiritual, mental, mystical development. Aren't some of his thoughts pretty unusual? I agree with you about the 'mixed signals'. Could Thoreau be challenging us to 'shift' for ourselves? That use of shiftless was a surprise!!

Mal, can you make out what Thoreau's 'spiritual view of life' is all about? If the pond is a 'metaphor for Nature' (430), why is Thoreau dealing, or coming to grips with two or more natures?

It seems to me that Thoreau pulls out all the stops in this chapter. That is, if we imagine him at his organ, playing an interesting fugue. Why not? He hears a harp, and a flute. He would no doubt be delighted to think that we, too, have ears to hear.

Barbara, do you buy that austerity thing that comes with the flute? I was only half serious about wanting Thoreau to say more about ponds. I knew from the posts how the rest of you felt about that. With the exception of Mal, who took us on such a fine tour. Thoreau might have mentioned the problem that Canada geese pose for the ponds of New England. For many years my wife and I rented a cottage on a lovely pond on Cape Cod. The propietor and his feud with the threee or four Canada geese, who wanted to take up residence there, provided us with a lot of entertainment. I got to hear every summer how many tons of pond-fouling matter these geese were capable of leaving behind.

Jonathan

Malryn (Mal)
May 13, 2002 - 11:07 pm
Oh, Jonathan, Thoreau is trying to come to grips with his "bestial" nature here -- (like he even once thought he was in love with a girl!) -- and the cerebral, transcendental, spiritual guy he thinks he'd like to be. Twenty-eight years old, all the juices flowing, and he's bound and determined to be a self-imposed hair shirt ascetic, poor fellow.

I swear (as they say here south of the Mason-Dixon line) more full of fun, taffy-pullin', jig-dancin' times were ruined with this kind of thinkin' by young fellas like Thoreau who thought they'd be better off as Buddhist monks than I can even remember. Why, I knew a young man in my youth who thought he could overcome his evil thoughts of gettin' tangled up with the likes of girls like me by practicing Transcendentalism a hundred years after Thoreau tried to do the same thing. Mercy sakes, you all, it's Adam and Eve all over again!

Mal

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 13, 2002 - 11:52 pm
Aha Mal the pond is like the big picture - all those questions about the universe and who are we and is there a God and is God manifest in nature etc. etc.

Whoops your post above came as I was typing Mal YES! Adem and Eve - perfect you are saying what I am railing about in just that phrase. I also love how you say - "taffy-pullin', jig-dancin' times" - a flute just does not do it if you are trying to glog your heals does it.

At least in this chapter he appears to be typical of a 20 year old although now we know these thoughts were in his journal but worked over and over and not published as a book till he was in his 30s. I agree with you Babi he is all over the place trying to come to terms with his thoughts.

Jonathan Sorry I didn't catch the humor - along those lines though I think we have to be so broad with our humor when we share in a post since we only have words and not a tone of voice or body language that says so much - some gifted people can make humor appear using just words - I think it must be a special talent.

It is amazing there are flashes of brilliance in this man's writing and than other times he is as dull as a board. His poems lack charm or grabbing power and yet at times within his prose there is a great line or two worth framing.

And so New England has a problem with too many geese as well - I say as well because about 5 years ago I visited the New York City area in September and was driven along an old highway that was like driving through a large park with old stone bridges - very pretty - in the Bronx - well the place was covered to the point of over population and a nuisance with ducks and geese. So much so that my hosts explained the birds had lessoned the use of the park area to people. I thought at the time, do these people know nothing about animal husbandry, land management and the balance of land to wild life -

I know at times here in town we will have too many deer and now with so many having moved here from other areas of the country, who are not used to guns, there is a big furor about a deer kill - but at least neighborhoods collect funds and pay to round up a percentage of the herd and fly them to the mountains of Mexico so the rest of the herd can thrive.

Of course there cannot be a round up of birds but I bet there is something that could be done to reduce births for a season and get the population back in balance. Hehehe I am sounding like our Henry with my judgemental opinions on wild life husbandry. Ah so --

His line - "There is never an instant's truce betwen virtue and vice." says to me he sees things in a very black and white way - the war between evil and good in his mind goes on and on and on... Than he says, "Goodness is the only investment that never fails." All I could do was shake my head and think if he believes that there is this bridge that folks have been trying to sell and he could be a potential customer.

I think I get his point when he says, "All sensuality is one, though it takes many forms..." and goes on with "They are but one appetite..." I would say it isn't the sensuality of eat, drink, cohabit, sleep but rather an obsession with one or more that gets folks into trouble. I wonder if Henry David is really suggsting that eating, drinking are really sensual acts worthy to be called impure or the word and concept of obessions was not yet understood during the 1840s and 50s. And surely he means cohabitating without benefit of marriage or does he really have a thing against marriage and the sleeping bit I do not get at all - do folks have issue with how many hours you sleep or when you choose to sleep? I know there are pithy sayings about 'early to bed early to rise' and the 'early bird catches the worm' and so I can understand in an agricultural society day time hours had great work value but to the extent if someone takes a day time nap they would be considered a sensualist - goodness.

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 14, 2002 - 12:47 am
Meng-tzu is written as Mengzi and means the sayings of Mencius

Mencius is the Latinized version for Meng-tsu whose name is often seen written as Mengzi, meaning "Master Meng," 372-289? BCE

As a Confucian philosopher, Mencius based his entire system of thought on the concept of jen: "humaneness," "humanity," "benevolence," etc. To this basic doctrine he added the concept of i : "righteousness," or "duty." His book deals with government and asserts that the welfare of the people comes before all else. When a king no longer is good to the people, he should be removed--by revolution if necessary. Mencius became known as the Second Sage in China and after Confucious' Five Classics his philosophy of Legalism provided the Chinese state with one of its basic doctrines.

Lovely site that shows a photo of Exegeses on the Book of Mencius imprint by the Tea and Salt Supervisorate of the Chekiang East Circuit Traditional studies of the classics are one of the fountainheads of Chinese culture. A large number of notes and commentaries have been left by many able scholars over the ages. These texts were transcribed by hand until the spread of woodblock printing.

Malryn (Mal)
May 14, 2002 - 07:46 am
The average American lifespan in 1850 was 47. Thoreau was 28 when he went to Walden Pond to live, 30 when he left. At that point in time, he had 15 more years to live. Young people in the 1800's were not "young" as we know them in the 21st century. Walden is not the work of a young man according to mid 19th century standards.

Thoreau and Emerson and other Transcendentalists were greatly influenced by Hinduism, and it certainly shows in Walden. In The Story of Civilization, Will Durant says that Hindus believe:
"A man is only partly a man, he is also an animal; shreds and echoes of past lower existences linger in him, and make him more akin to the brute than to the sage."
Durant also says:
"But in truth the Hindus do question all existence.....The highest and final asiration of the Hindu is to escape reincarnation, to lose that fever of ego. Salvation does not come by faith, nor yet by works; it comes by such uninterrupted self-denial, by such selfless intuition of the part-engulfing Whole, that at last the self is dead."
This gives to me, at least, some real insight about how Thoreau thought and what he was trying to do at Walden Pond. Thoreau was not trying to escape reincarnation, but he was making a great effort to separate himself from a world he believed was petty, crass, overflowing with appetite, including sensual appetite, and completely unspiritual in the true sense of spirituality. The quotes from Walden I put in Post #423 corroborate this.

Mal

Harold Arnold
May 14, 2002 - 07:46 am
Mal, Jonathon, Then is the key to our understanding of Thoreau to be found in the pond, i.e., his understanding, his concept of the Pond? Was the pond like a character in a book sort of like the role of egdon heath in Thomas Hardy’s, “Return Of The Native? I must read the “Pond” chapter again.

Malryn (Mal)
May 14, 2002 - 07:56 am
Harold, I think Walden Pond represented what Thoreau thought was the "true world", a world which was completely opposite to the world I describe in Post #435.

Mal

Jonathan
May 14, 2002 - 02:56 pm
But reading it is a lot of fun nevertheless. An excellent wherewithal to 're-create' the intellect. Doesn't Thoreau come up with the most amazing thoughts, gleaned in the faraway places of his scholarly and meditative travels. In the Vedas. Among the oriental sages. At the feet of the Hindoo lawgivers. Not to mention the backyard of his own puritan, calvinistic, New England upbringing. What a promiscuous mix! And he talks about chastity!

It brings to mind the point Nellie made, when she pointed out the problems Thoreau had with all the inviting shops of the village. Didn't he try to avoid them? When it came to his intellectual needs, however, he certainly shopped around.

The moral improvement he sought, his personal quest, provoked by the realization that he could devour the little woodchuck with 'savage delight'...given the recurring role that the woodchuck plays in Walden...I get the impression that they were buddies, despite the fact that they got there first by devouring his beans, and, ah, yes, they were a staple in the Canadian wood-chopper's diet, I believe. Thoreau's quest, written up in Higher Laws, imo, would have served very well for points at the beginning of the Story of Civilization Discussion.

I find some of his thoughts, those of a moral and religious nature, including variations on remorse and contrition, helpful in meditating on my own affairs. When he mentions sleep as an indicator of moral purity, I begin to see a light on my personal experience in the last little while. I'm sleeping unusually well...considering how miserable I'm feeling while reading George Eliot's Daniel Deronda. But of course!!! For a man, a husband, a father, reading the book, sympathetically, is a penance done.

Thoreau does, imo, reach sublime heights contemplating our nature; but some times he stoops to score a point, or make a very curious down-to-earth observation. As, for example, comparing the playing fields of England and the happy hunting grounds of the American fields and forests as character-building propositions, with the Mighty Hunter taking on the same metaphorical proportions as Walden pond itself.

As for scoring points, I find that in Thoreau's extraordinary statement 'that some berries which I had eaten on a hillside had fed my genius.' The chapter is obviously very cleverly crafted, with eating and appetite playing a crucial role in the author's moral evolution, with the argument leading inexorably, in high-drama fashion, to this conclusion about the berries. With that, I believe, he was answering Emerson's criticism that he, Thoreau, was wasting his time with collecting huckleberries. It's the small internal evidence of the bad feeling between the two men. Why did Thoreau hate Emerson after their early close relationship? I was surprised, Barbara, by those lines of poetry you posted early on, in which Thoreau vented so much hate. To whom? I thougt then that it must have been Emerson. Just the other day I found something in T's Journal: On Emerson

'Oct 10, 1851. Ah, I yearn toward thee, my friend, but I have not confidence in thee. We do not believe in the same God. I am not thou; thou art not I. We trust each other today, but we distrust tomorrow. Even when I meet thee unexpectedly, I part from thee with disappointment. Though I enjoy thee more than other men, yet am I more disappointed with thee than with others. I know a noble man; what hinders me from knowing him better? I know not how it is that our distrust, our hate, is stronger than our love. Here I have been on what the world would call friendly terms with one fourteen years, have pleased my imagination sometimes with loving him; and yet our hate is stronger than our love...We almost are a sore to one another...Ever and anon there will come the consciousness to mar our love...'

And on and on. Emerson was jealous of the berries.

Jonathan

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 14, 2002 - 07:08 pm
Interesting insights y'all are sharing -

OK my take Mal on the age thing - knowing that some of our founding fathers in all their wisdom where not really young and where the life-span is shorter I can't help but wonder if that necessarily made for more wisdom at a younger age and therefore some of Thoreau questioning and muzzling over his values, could they be so different than the young person of today - I have found most young people to be rather boring until their middle forties because it isn't until they reach that age that they finally settle into their own skins and do not need to judge everything that comes across their path to see how it fits or not as they continue to establish their values - as I say just musing we do not need a consensus on any of this.

And here I go with another different viewpoint Mal, Oh dear, but lets just agree there are more views since we all come here with different experiences - I do not have a handle at all on Hinduism and only a bit of Buddhism but I have a deep knowledge with more than 15 years study of Taoism - the aspect that I find so many westerners misinterpret is this aspect of denial, passivity that they read about in eastern religions - they misinterpret it to mean denial of the body and passive in action - what they are really saying is to rid your self of ego intent - to stay passive until you have a clarity to the inner Sage or, as some would say their God or, still other's call it their intuition governed by a universal voice - regardless what it is labled it is touched through meditation - the quote you share, if the accessive words are eliminated it is right there --
"...escape reincarnation, to lose that fever of ego. Salvation does not come by faith, nor yet by works; it comes by such uninterrupted self-denial, by such selfless intuition of the part-engulfing Whole, that at last the self is dead."
The self being the ego - there are monks who became hermits, as Buddha did, to rid themselves of ego based reaction but for most they rid themsleves of ego through daily practice of meditation - "selfless intuition of the part-engulfing Whole" is the selfless - none ego - intuition - getting in touch with our spirit - part-engulfing - we are all a part of the universal - 'Whole' - -

In other words we should be passive till we can act from our spirit and with the Universal spirit which together, is the 'Whole' - then we are not dependent on; comparing or looking to the side or behind or forward but rather, simply acting with great energy and focus without desiring a certain outcome.

Now as I say the Hindu may be interpreting this as denying the body and acting passively but that would not be in keeping with the various lectures and readings and associates in learning I have had studying Eastern thought.

To how our Thoreau interpreted Hinduism and combined it into the popular Transcendentalism I leave to you to best explain - as I read I use my concepts to understand and therefore, I've been seeing Thoreau's experiment at Walden's Pond as his being in a place surrounded by quiet and nature, that enables him more easily and maybe without even realizing while he is observing nature, as being in a meditative state free of his ego and therefore, he is going deep within to determine his thoughts and behavior. I can see how some could see his self-denial, austere existance at Walden's Pond being the vehicle alone to his new perceptions on life. To me that leaves out any contact with a Universal power.

And so you can see Harold that after Mal suggested the Pond symbolic of life I assumed that ment the 'Whole' the combined universal life, light, soul - God - our inner voice sans our ego.

Please share with us what you get out of it after you re-read -- hmmm this maybe why "Walden" continues to be so read - it is maybe an exercise in expressing our individual philosphy on life.

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 14, 2002 - 08:57 pm
Jonathan what prompted you to read Daniel Deronda? - I was not familiar with the title and after looking it up and reading the synopsis offered by Amazon.com it sounds like a story not typical of Eliot's other work. I have loved the movies and mini-series of both Eliot and Jane Austin's work but I find both writers a tedious read. The Victorian view of the appropriate social recognition a Jew in Daniel Deronda sounds like the Trollop book just aired as a mini-series on PBS.

Thoreau's Higher Laws reminds me of so many religions that promoted man as base until they drop the 'things' of the world and accept the clean life attributed to Jesus. Seems to me though, Jesus was cool with fish - Thoreau seems to be showing how the "brute beast" converts to 'Higher' ideals - ah so as you say, that must be all that puritanical upbringing coming forward - to each his own.

Great hint - follow the path of the woodchuck - hmmm.

Interesting that you quote something from his Journal - last Friday I purchased a paper back version of 'parts' of his Journal - I noted it wasn't till the 1850s that he writes with strong opinion of the character, politics and behavior of others where as during the 1840s the entries in this publication seem to focus on nature and his place in nature.

Do we know what the break-up between Emerson and Thoreau was all about - is it explained in another publication or is there a History Scholar that has written an Essay explaining what happened. Mal if anyone would know I bet you know - is there any information that you know how this break-up occured?

I finished reading Brute Neighbours this morning and I just love this chapter - I love the device he uses to start it - there were several words I had to look up to understand paragraphs - and the message of the chapter I just loved reading - He does not share the moralizing side of his character and maybe that is what appeals to me - I will share my comments tomorrow - my allergies are really giving me a miserable time of it and some heavy duty anti-histamine is what I am craving which does mean sleep - blessed sleep, regardless Thoreau's opinion of sleep.

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 15, 2002 - 02:58 am
Some nights sleep is just not in the picture - and so the unraveling of Walden’s Pond - Great period piece on PBS tonight on Darwin - Amazing, there was Wilberforce and most important, the concept of man’s place in the universe before Darwin’s theory had me thinking - and so back to the ‘ahum’ much loved?!? Chapter The Ponds. I should have known that anytime I want to dismiss or skip part of a read it ends up being the part that needs the most scrutiny. And so I've underlined every line and phrase I could find that described the pond --

Right away in the first paragraph there is the indication that he is approaching some higher meaning -- "Eternal Justice reigns,"

I get it - unless you pick of the fruit of knowledge you do not get to taste or truly understand the knowledge -- picking the huckleberry.

Now whatever the pond is representing he had to approach it adventurously, light it with firebrands and like the fire, he and a companion built at the edge of the pond, he now has his home by the shore.

He fishes in this pond, sometimes at night and while fishing he feels a vibration - his thoughts wonder as vast and cosmogonal (thoughts about the origins of the universe and the ultimate nature of reality) when he fishes on this pond therefore, he catches both a fish and his philosophical thoughts.

The pond is deep and pure and has two colors - one when the pond is viewed from a distance, depends on light and follows the sky - the other like the sea, not determined by the light or the sky. When a bit of the water is separated out from the pond (a glass full) it is colorless - the water is transparent.

Then we have all this about the shore - a smooth belt of white stones which extend into the water after which there is sand and in the deepest part there is sediment from the decay of leaves.

The pond is his well and the first to come to the well left footsteps - so many that there is a path surrounding the shore rising and falling with the hillside.

The pond rises and fall independent of rain - commonly higher in winter and lower in summer. There is a rising and falling that fluctuates over a period of years. When it is high it kills the vegetation at its edge keeping the shore cleanest when the water is lowest - therefore, the trees cannot possess the pond -- here we have human qualities describing the lake which has no beard and it licks its chops from time to time.

Then we have a creation story followed by -- "The pond was my well ready dug" - the pond is a superior pond since it keeps water colder than if the water was sheltered and the pond is even cold when exposed to the summer sun.

Caught in this superior pond are these magical fish although not many they are still -- "cleaner, handsomer and firmer than those in the river and most other ponds, as the water is purer."

The shoreline is not monotonous since it is winding with a natural and agreeable boundary like a selvage with few traces of man's hand -- "The water laves (flow, laps, washes upon) the shore as it did a thousand years ago." And so whatever this pond symbolizes it is old. It is also the most beautiful and expressive feature of the land.

Aha -- "It is earth's eye, looking into which the beholder measures the depth of his own nature"

The pond reflects the western sun which the western sun usually means the end of your life.

The pond is smooth pure, beautiful, like imperfect glass with darker waters and seperate from the rest of the cobwebs and water nymphs resting on it. It is peaceful, fair, so pure, large Sky Water needs no fence, nations come and go without defiling it.
"It is a mirror which no stone can crack, whose quicksilver will never wear off, whose gilding Nature continually repairs; no storms, not dust, can dim its surface ever fresh; - a mirror in which all impurity presented to it sinks, swept and dusted by the sun's hazy brush - this the light dust-cloth - which retains no breath that is breathed on it, but sends its own to float as clouds high above its surface, and be reflected on its bosom still...It is continually receiving new life and motion from above. It is intermediate in its nature between land and sky"
"Being so smooth, betrayed where a spring welled up from the bottom."

We have all heard of the earth's eye therefore, the pond must symbolize Thoreau’s soul (the eye is the window of the soul) -- that it is half way between land, or the earth, and the sky; could only make sense after I saw the Darwin piece on TV -- as if the soul is separate from the universe, on its own plane with the sky being the heavens and the earth being the 'Brute' man. All this shoreline bit, I wonder if that represents the education of his soul by those that came before him and his soul keeps itself clear of encroaching vegetation symbolizing unwanted worldly habits.

In his Journal he describes the pickeral as being like jewels and so with his description here of such beauty it appears the fish are pearls of wisdom he catches from within his soul. And as 'sky water' the soul is a reflection of the heavens.

I'm having a difficult time thinking as Thoreau or how his fellow 1840s Concordians understood the soul and how it could be regarded so that the Pond could symbolize all of this - but regardless, I still can see a message for myself within my personal philosophy to the symbolic nature of the pond being the 'universal soul.'

I am really now more than ever interested in how each of you understand this symbolism of the pond, shore, sky etc.

Malryn (Mal)
May 15, 2002 - 09:06 am
Barbara, just as you base your opinions on what you've experienced and have known, so also do I base mine. Having visited Houston, Texas and neighboring places for two weeks only once in my life, I can't begin to understand Southwestern culture and thought in the way that you do. What I said about age and maturity of Thoreau is based on the culture and thought I truly do know -- that of New England.

Children in the 19th century were not allowed to be children very long. Even before they went to school, strong Puritan ethics and principles held by their parents forced them to do chores and work very hard. When they were old enough to go to school, every morning before they started that long walk to the schoolhouse, they were feeding the chickens, milking the cow, churning the butter, baking bread, chopping and splitting wood, or cleaning out the chicken coop and shoveling snow.

School was no picnic. The slightest sign of misbehavior like a whisper or a sneeze brought a hurtful, hard rap on the knuckles from the teacher's ruler. If kids were really bad in that teacher's opinion, they were whipped without mercy in front of the class. Don't speak unless you're spoken to. Sit straight in that chair, and don't make a move, or you'll be punished in a way you'll never forget.

Six hours of that, the long trudge home on good days, in rain, or in falling snow or through deep snowdrifts; then out to the barn to do more chores or into the kitchen to help cook a meal and clean up after it. Homework done by oil lamp or light from the fire; tedious readings from the Bible by your father before you were allowed upstairs. Long prayers on your knees on a hard, cold floor in an unheated room before you were finally released to fall into bed exhausted and rest. Never a day off, and church services all day Sunday. Children grew up mighty fast in those days.

Entering Harvard at the age of 16 was no child's play, believe me, especially with the curriculum of Latin, Greek, other languages and studies of the classics. The regimen at Harvard then was extremely harsh, and so were the demanding professors. Long hours of study, a cell with a cot to sleep on, sparse and unfancy food to eat. One has to remember the Puritanism of New England, its work ethic, and strait-laced morality when one considers age at that time.

Walden Pond was a pristine escape from the "meanness" of the Concord world for Thoreau. There was only the big picture of Nature, no pettiness, no materialism, no lesser, crass people to put up with.

Thoreau tells the reader exactly what White Pond and Walden Pond were to him:

"They are too fine to have a market value. They contain no muck. How much more beautiful than our lives, how much more transparent than our characters are they!"

"Nevertheless, of all the characters I have known, perhaps Walden wears best."

"I cannot come nearer to God and Heaven
Than I live to Walden even."
Deeper than this, Thoreau really did not go. Walden Pond was a world in which he felt free and unemcumbered by the materialistic irrelevancies which Thoreau felt existed in the world of Concord. I see Walden Pond as Thoreau's haven, a great aid in finding his own Moksha, nothing more, nothing less.

Mal

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 15, 2002 - 10:03 am
aha - makes sense Mal so that staying at the Pond was his emancipation - freedom from the social mores of the day - no wonder he became a poster child for the 60s.

OK what is 'Moksha' - found Moke in the dictionary - British slang for a broken down donkey - but no Moksha.

Malryn (Mal)
May 15, 2002 - 10:13 am
Barb, in Hinduism Moksha is "the release from the changing world and the cycle of birth and rebirth."

Mal

BaBi
May 15, 2002 - 11:22 am
Jonathan, tho' I usually like George Eliot (and am obviously not a husband, father, etc.), I think I will definitely avoid Daniel Deronda. Reading a book you find a penance? Poor man! And, while I agree that an uneasy conscience can rob one of sleep, so can the little aches and discomforts of growing older, as you also know. I take my Tylenol, read a slightly dull, but not penitential, book, and try to got to sleep!

On the quote from Thoreau re. Emerson, and his use of the word "hatred".... I believe the word 'hate' or 'hatred' carried a much less virulent connotation in the past than it does now. Nowadays, to hate someone implies a willingness or desire to harm them in some way. I don't think that is the case with Thoreau and Emerson. 'Hate' once denoted more of an absence of friendly action or intent; not putting the interests of another first (ie., love). This is what has caused so much confusion re. the scripture in Luke about having to "hate" one's father, mother, wife, children, etc., in order to be Christ's disciple. It was simply saying that the service to God must come first, not that one was to hate one's family in today's sense of the word. (Forgive me if I'm telling you what you already know better than I do.)

Barbara, thank you for that very helpful discussion of the meaning of self-denial in Taoism. I had tended to see that aspect of Eastern religions as a desire for non-existence; to wholly cease to be. A striving to leave behind considerations of ego and self I can better understand.

Malryn (Mal)
May 15, 2002 - 12:41 pm

"May 25, 1853



"On this day, Thoreau and Emerson went for a walk together. They subsequently wrote about the event in their journal, each giving his own perspective of what happened.



"May 25, 1853 - from Thoreau's Journal



" 'Talked, or tried to talk, to Ralph Waldo Emerson. Lost my time--nay, almost my identity. He, assuming a false opposition where there was no difference of opinion, talked to the wind--told me what I know--and I lost my time trying to imagine myself somebody else to oppose him.'



"May 25, 1853 - from Emerson's Journal



" 'Henry is militant. He seems stubborn and implaccable; always manly and wise but rarely sweet. One would say that, as Webster could never speak without an antagonist, so Henry does not feel himself except in opposition. He wants a fallacy to expose, a blunder to pillory, requires a little sense of victory, a roll of the drum, to call his powers into full exercise.' "

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 15, 2002 - 03:25 pm
hmmm disagreement over some point or issue they were discussing - seems a bit drastic don't you think Mal to lose a friendship over seeing things differently from each other - I wonder if there was some unspoken discontent that built up to this disagreement on May 25, 1853 - would that have been after 'Walden' was published - maybe Thoreau no longer felt that Emerson was the end all be all as his older mentor since he had some success under his belt and therefore, was no longer hanging on to Emerson's every word as he may have been. Or maybe Emerson didn't like seeing his prodigy becoming as successful or independent in his thinking.

Interesting how in Thoreau's Journal he is concerned with taking care of himself where as in Emerson's Journal he is so busy criticizing.

And maybe this whole disagreement was a temporary fly in the ointment if the great information about 'Hate' that Babi shared was the real interpretation of the exchange between them - thanks for that Babi very helpful!

Well time for the News - so I can find out who is killing who today.

Malryn (Mal)
May 15, 2002 - 04:35 pm
Ralph Waldo Emerson was fourteen years older than Henry David Thoreau. Thoreau was a very young man when Emerson recognized his genius and took him under his wing. Emerson grew to be disappointed in Thoreau, whom Emerson thought had much more talent than living in the woods, scratching out his thoughts about Nature, taxes, and so forth revealed. It interests me in my previous post of quotes by them that each one says practically the same thing about the other. Incidentally, Barbara, Thoreau himself paid for the publication of Walden. I don't know how much fame it brought him. Not much at the time, I believe, and it certainly didn't bring him a fortune.

Click the link below to read more about Emerson's feeling about Thoreau.

Emerson Eulogy of Thoreau

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 16, 2002 - 02:59 am
Great Site Mal - I especially loved the graphic background in addition to the good information.

Babi the more I think about the difference in understanding over the word Hate the more I wonder how many other modern inferences we put on nineteenth century writing.

I thought this next chapter Brute Neighbours started in such a fun way - checked it out and there are two thoughts - either it is a self dialogue or a conversation with his friend the poet William Ellery Channing - I prefer the idea of a self conversation but of course had to look up Channing - in the process I found this great site - 4 years of The Concord Magazine and so I am linking most of the articles printed about Thoreau --
Famous minister and uncle William Ellery Channing to Poet and Thoreau's friend, William Ellery Channing

In 1971 the source of water for Walden's Pond is found

The first American Pencil was made in Concord after the war of 1812 put an Embargo on European imports and Hanry David Thoreau's valuable contribution to the successful manufacture of the pencil. (He wasn't just a vagabond - He really did achieve great business success!)

In the spring of 1861, Henry David Thoreau needed a change of climate since he was in poor health and he decided on a trip to Minnesota. Good friend 17 year-old Horace Mann, Jr. quite the naturalist as well, accompanied Thoreau on his trip. (Together they carried out more research and field trips than vacationing.)

Whatever Happened to Thoreau's Hut Part I

Whatever Happened to Thoreau's Hut Part II

The Concord Magazine - New England Transcedentalism

Malryn (Mal)
May 16, 2002 - 06:49 am
In the article about Transcendentalism Barbara posted, it says this:

"The importance he (Emerson) placed upon a direct relationship with God and nature derived from the concept of the Over-Soul, described by Emerson in his essay 'The Over-Soul' as 'that great nature in which we rest ... that Unity within which every man's particular being is contained and made one with all other.' "
The Over-Soul idea comes directly from Hinduism. In Hinduism there is no individual self, there is the "Whole", which is the same concept as Emerson's Over-Soul.

Henry David Thoreau's idea of adding clay to the plumbago (graphite) used in his father's pencils was based on what already had been done and was used in Germany at that time by the Faber Pencil Company. In 1795 French chemist Nicholas Conté received a patent for the process for making pencil leads by mixing powdered graphite and clay and baking it in an oven. This is exactly what Henry Thoreau did and what Faber used. Did you ever use Conté crayons in artwork? Thoreau's contribution was a help to his father's business, but that business did not bring a great financial reward to John Thoreau. As far as I know, his son Henry refused any monetary compensation for what he did. I found this information in sites on the web when I searched the Thoreau pencil some time ago.

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
May 16, 2002 - 09:22 am
Parts of this chapter made me smile. There is the tender little scene with the mouse. Then comes the Battle of the Ants, which Thoreau likened to the Battle of Lexington and Concord on April 18, 1775, which was well-known to any Massachusetts school child. This bit amused me. April 18th is celebrated in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts as Patriot's Day to this day.

Thoreau's description of chasing the loon is wonderful and very, very accurate. Anyone who has ever tried to chase a loon in a rowboat knows exactly how Thoreau felt. I remember doing it on Unity Pond in Maine in a boat rowed by my high school boyfriend, who later became my husband. I thought my boyfriend was crazier than the loon as we pursued that darned bird, whose only reaction was to laugh that insane laugh which is typical of loons.

A pleasant chapter, I'd call this one, and a rest from the deep thinking of the previous two or three.

Mal

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 16, 2002 - 10:56 am
That article on the pencil I thought was fun didn't you Mal - it sounded like the Europeans had the secret to making the graphite work and I had no idea that it was such the secret - and pencils were in jepordy as a result of an embargo during the war of 1812 oh my - in fact I didn't even know there was an embargo - I wonder how Thoreau got the secret while in Europe - my imaginiation is running riot as I see him in some coffee house in Vienna as some pencil manufactorer spills the beans after too much shnapps hehehe but it sounds like the purpose for his trip was just that - to learn the secret.

Ah so the battle of Lexington - here I was trying to see it in relationship to the Civil War, knowing the war hadn't happened yet. He was dramatic in an amusing way with that whole bit - in fact this seems to me to be a chapter with the lightest mood of any we have read so far.

Was it Horace Mann or Horace Greeley that had the famous line "Go West young man, Go West."

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 16, 2002 - 11:01 am
huh - look at this - I guess it started with Greeley But
John Soule, an Indiana newspaperman, was the one who actually used those words--"Go West, young man"-- in 1851, over ten years after Greeley wrote in his weekly New Yorker that "If you have no family or friends to aid you . . . turn your face to the Great West and there build up your home and fortune." It was the first of many such pronouncements, and Soule, like most of his colleagues in what was then considered "the West," regularly exchanged intelligence with the Tribune.

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 16, 2002 - 11:07 am
Well I'll be - I knew the name Horace Mann but didn't have any idea what he did - turns out he became the "Father of Public School Education" and was the President of Antioch Collage. Horace Mann

BaBi
May 16, 2002 - 12:02 pm
I love a mystery! Now I know the mysterious source of the water of Walden Pond. Thanks for the source, Barbara.

I was enchanted by the mouse, awed by the powerful instincts of the baby partridges, and appalled at the ferocity of the ants. As for the reason for the miniature war, it was probably territorial, don't you think? One group invading, one defendng. Oddly enough,I read an article just recently of colonies of ants covering millions of acres in Europe. What was really startling, is that it was not just one species of ant. Apparently these ants have arrived at a peaceful detente, which is more than one can say for that superior species - man. ...Babi

Malryn (Mal)
May 16, 2002 - 02:18 pm
The Civil War, Barb? Didn't you ever have to memorize the Concord Hymn by Emerson when you were in school? "By the rude bridge that arched the flood".

The Concord Hymn

When did Thoreau ever go to Europe? I found one page that said he was in Europe in 1833, but that can't be right. Thoreau was 16 years old in 1833 and at Harvard. He and Isaac Hecker talked about walking across Europe on one of Hecker's Walks for Hunger, but that walk never happened.

Mal

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 16, 2002 - 03:19 pm
Hehehe according to where you go to school I think - nope never heard of "By the rude bridge that arched the flood" - let's swap how about - can you sing - now your voice in sincere reverence -

Rise, man the wall, our clarian's blast
Now sounds its final reveille;
This dawing morn must be the last
Our fated band shall ever see...

Hymn of the Alamo



Babi here is a painting by an unknown artist done in 1867 of Lake Winnipesaukee

Mal Can't find it anyplace now and it could be that I read it incorrectly but something about when Henry David's older sister Helen was staying with the Emerson's and he was supposed to be going to New York but instead went for a short walking trip to Europe??

What is this about ants in Europe Babi - I remember there being a great book several years ago about ants in Africa being the memory of Africa - that when the African plains go on fire periodicaly there is no seeds or livestock and only the ants who bury themselves during the fires so that they come back first and rebuild which starts the cycle of growth all over again.

His description of the Battle of the Ants reminded me of the newer PBS series "Monarch of the Glen" where the father, Hector and his friend play war with lead soldiers in a huge array mock battle field in one of the upstairs rooms.

I had fun looking up words like Bose and victualling and I still have all those battles and names to find out about.

Malryn (Mal)
May 16, 2002 - 03:24 pm
Well, heck, Barbara, we kids in Massachusetts had to memorize the Hymn of the Alamo, too!

P.S. That's a very glamorized picture of Lake Winnepesaukee. You can't really see the White Mountains from that lake.

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
May 16, 2002 - 03:44 pm
Did you see the movie On Golden Pond? It was filmed at Lake Winnipesaukee.

I'm sorry I'm such a pain in the neck about New England, but it's been several years since I've been up in that neck of the woods, and I get homesick around this time of year right through the summer and into the Fall.

Mal

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 17, 2002 - 01:38 am
Oh my I have learned more about Napoleon than I ever needed to know - the sites that include information about his battles are endless - they are filled with verbage - no graphics - and go on and on and on. Evidently the Battle of Austerlitz went on all day and was fought on an open plane like the battle scene in the movie War and Peace

Napoleon was fighting all over the place in Europe and at sea with the English. At the same time we were at it with England again during the war of 1812 - Did find one line about an Embargo with England and France that we signed in 1807. Also we weren't lily white during the War of 1812 we were after parts of Canada.

As to the Battle at Dresden I am confused - there may have been two - one was fought after the Battle at Ulm but then there is another spoken of in 1813 which is after the Battle of Austerlitz - I could not find one site that simply laid all these battles out in a time frame -

I did find out about the Generals that were in charge of these battles and it looks like Marshal Soult - Battle of Austerlitz - was older, very stong with bow legs, fought in Spain and other places and for ahile second in command to Napoleon. He betrayed Napoleon to the British but than became friends again when he was released - all very interesting. Marshal ST. Cyr. - Battle of Dresden was really an artist and retired to the countryside soon after this battle at Dresden.

Chapter 27 : Napoleon Bonaparte - French Dissolution


It was so easy to find some really neat sites about the American War for Independence -

Lt. Colonel John Robinson of Westford probably received the alarm between 3 and 5 AM. Given his rank in Prescott’s regiment, Robinson would have probably been on the list of officers to most directly receive notice of the alarm. He quickly mounted his horse and set off for Concord;

500 militia and minutemen gathered under the overall command of Col. Barrett of Concord. Maj. Buttrick; on whose land the engagement was to occur, supported him.

The Americans commenced their march in double file… In a minute or two, the Americans being in quick motion and within ten or fifteen rods of the bridge, a single gun was fired by a British soldier, which marked the way, passing under Col. Robinson’s arm and slightly wounding the side of Luther Blanchard, a fifer, in the Acton Company.

A ragged musket volley followed from the regulars. In addition to the wounding of Blanchard, musket shots killed Capt. Davis and private Abner Hosmer, also from Acton.

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 17, 2002 - 03:02 am
Pilpay, or Bidpai - The Fables of, or Kalilah and Dimnah, is the title of the Arabic version of a lost original of the Panchatantra, a celebrated Sanskrit collection of fables, the source of much European folklore. 'Bidpai' is a corruption of 'bidbah', the appellation of the chief scholar at the court of an Indian prince.

The fables were translated into many European languages, the first English version coming via the Italian in a version by Sir T. North as The Morall Philosophia of Doni (1570). A recent version, Kalila and Dimna: Selected Fables of Bidpai (1980) by Ramsay Wood, has an introduction by D. Lessing describing the history of the tales and their naturalization in other cultures.

entomologists Kirby and Spence,

The Discovery of the World and of Man - Journeys of the Italians -- In the middle of the fifteenth century, could be found, anywhere but in Italy, such a union of geographical, statistical, and historical knowledge as was found in Aeneas Sylvius? Not only in his great geographical work, but in his letters and commentaries, he describes with equal mastery landscapes, cities, manners, industries and products, political conditions and constitutions,

Aeneas Sylvius was Pope Pius II (1405-64) On a mission to Scotland when his ship was threatened by a storm, Aeneas Sylvius vowed to walk barefoot to the nearest shrine of Our Lady if a landfall was safely made. The nearest shrine was ten miles away from the landfall, but Aeneas Sylvius resolutely trudged barefoot through bleak Scottish snow to pay his debt.

Olaus Magnus, Archbishop of Uppsala (1490-1558) Though sea serpents are ubiquitous in myths and legends, the first attempt to describe them as figures in natural history appears in a 1555 work by Olaus Magnus, the exiled Catholic archbishop of Uppsala, Sweden. The archbishop wrote that sailors off the coast of Norway had often seen a "Serpent ... of vast magnitude, namely 200 feet long, and moreover 20 feet thick." A dangerous beast, it lived in caves along the shore and devoured both land and ocean creatures, including an occasional seaman. "This Snake disquiets the shippers," Olaus Magnus wrote, "and he puts up his head on high like a pillar."

Christiern ruled in Denmark in the 16th century. In 1448 the Duke of Slesvig was influential enough to get his nephew Count Christiern elected King of Denmark, and when the Duke had died King Christiern was appointed Duke of Slesvig and Count of Holstein in 1460. It followed a period of a hundred years when the Duchy many times was devided between inheritors.

Malryn (Mal)
May 17, 2002 - 07:35 am
Thanks, Barbara, for all the research you did and the information and links you posted.

House-Warming is about how Thoreau built his chimney and warmed his house. He tells us he spent time gathering chestnuts and ground-nuts to add to his store of food. About the settling of colonies of wasps, he says, "I felt comfortable by their regarding my house as desirable shelter." Not everyone would feel that way. I can remember being stung by wasps and hornets who resented the fact that I shared "their" house when I was a kid.

Thoreau studied masonry and began work on his chimney and fireplace, telling the reader "the fireplace is the most vital part of the house." Wonder why he waited until so late in the season to begin work on his chimney? Ellery Channing was with him for two weeks and helped. He says there were numerous chinks between the wall boards before they were plastered, so the smoke could go out those chinks. There must have been a faulty draft.

I've thought many times about Thoreau's living in that cabin through the winter. Massachusetts winters can be dreadfully cold. A fire in a fireplace can create more heat than one needs for a while; then it's just plain cold except when you sit right in front of it and warm your front while your back freezes.

For the sake of economy only two rooms were heated during the winter in the house where I grew up, the kitchen and the dining room. The bedrooms upstairs were always very, very cold. I can remember my teeth chattering at night while I undressed and long afterwards as I tried to warm up in bed, once in a while with a hot water bottle at my feet. Dressing in that cold room with 1/2 inch thick ice on the inside of the windows was even worse in the morning. The hot water heater was turned on once a week on Saturday for baths. Water for washing dishes and laundry (always done on a washboard by hand) was heated on the kitchen stove.

I can well understand why "down Maine" they kept their long woolen underwear on until Spring. Wonder if Thoreau had a bedwarmer? Hot coals were put in the covered, flat round metal container attached to a long pole, and this was put in beds to warm them up.

Thoreau says the first snow came on November 25th, and Walden Pond froze over December 22nd. Cold, very cold.

Thoreau gives a dissertation on wood in this chapter. Food tastes better, he says, when it's cooked over a fire made of wood you find yourself. His idea of an open space house with "bare rafters and purloins" reminds me of contemporary houses I've seen.

Thoreau's study of the ice on Walden Pond is interesting. I have lain on new ice on Round Pond across the street from where I lived and looked at the bottom of the pond. His description of the bubbles in the ice is very accurate. Thoreau had a curiosity about many, many things.

What Thoreau did in this chapter was once again remind me of my Massachusetts childhood.

Mal

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 17, 2002 - 11:01 am
aha Memories Mal - life is certainly easier now as we can quickly flip a switch and have climate change.

Having lived in Kentucky for 12 years I Remember the stories there that cabin fireplaces were built with a casing around the outside of the fireplace. This casing was left with open chinks for the smoke to escape rather than it going up and out the top of the chimney where the distinctive plume could be noticed by Indians. Many of those first settlers built their cabins in or at the mouth of a cave again for protections from the Indians.

While we lived there I was very involved with Girl Scouts and we had an arrangement for two years with Barea Collage where we brought senior girls and the collage students into these mountain communities where they not only winterized the one room school houses but brought an inoculation program and helped with some reading programs as well as history for the parents in the evening.

I remember having my children in the car on one trip and my son became sick. We stopped to clean up and knocked on a door to ask for water - they had none but the people next door did - so about 1/2 mile away knocked on that door and yes they had water - if I would take a pail and go on down the dirt road we were on about another 1/2 mile I would find an outcropping of rock and under the rock there was a pool of water. Sure enough - when we got there we had to push the algae aside and dip our borrowed pail in for water. I thought at the time if this was how I got all my water, in time I think I too would think that clothes could be worn one more day etc. etc.

Lots of stories about the experiences of those two years -

I'm still back at the loon story and when I woke up this morning it reminded me of playing checkers in life - how sometimes I have become so caught up in chasing some issue that I try to outwit it and only get caught in the obsessive behavior of thinking I could beat it -

BaBi
May 17, 2002 - 12:25 pm
Barbara, thanks for the lovely picture of Lake Winnepasauka. Wouldn't it be wonderful to wake up every morning to a scene like that. I'm grateful to Mal for explaining that it was a glamorized version of the actual scene; I was beginning to suffer pangs of envy! :>)

You won't believe this, seeing as how I'm a native-born Texan, but I never heard of the Hymn of the Alamo. The Concord Hymn I knew. Once upon a time (long, long ago) I could even recite it.

I have never been able to understand the apparent popularity of roasted chestnuts. I tried them once; they tasted like partially cooked unseasoned beans! Not at all like nuts. Nevertheless, I enjoyed Henry's lyrical description of the gathering of all the abundance of the field and woods. And there is something 'warming' about bright berries, nuts and greenery distributed about one's house. ...Babi

Malryn (Mal)
May 17, 2002 - 02:01 pm
This is what Lake Winnepesaukee really looks like. This lake is 21 miles long and is in New Hampshire many miles north of Concord, Massachusetts, but not all that far from Concord, New Hampshire, the capital of the state.

Winnepesaukee sunset

Air view of the town called The Weirs and part of the lake

Malryn (Mal)
May 17, 2002 - 05:56 pm
Did you see this?

Two new books about Thoreau and Walden

BaBi
May 18, 2002 - 07:52 am
Even without the White Mountains, it's a lovely lake, Mal. Not quite enough, however, to lure me to cold New England. My bones are by now irretrievably Southern.

A few delicious quotes from 'Housewarming' before we leave, please:

"...I learned more than usual of the qualities of bricks and trowels. The mortar on them was fifty years old, and was said to be still growing harder; but this is one of those sayings whch men love to repeat whether they are true or not. Such sayings themselves grow harder and adhere more firmly with age, and it would take many blows with a trowel to clean an old wiseacre of them."

"My dwelling was small, and I could hardly entertain an echo in it."

Re. his large open dream house:"...where the washing is not put out, nor the fire, nor the mistress..."

Nevertheless, I would not be at all comfortable in Thoreau's wide-open house. Where, oh where, is the essential, decent, privacy?!! ...Babi

Malryn (Mal)
May 18, 2002 - 08:12 am
There are some lovely warm-hot days in the summer in New England, Babi.

Who needs privacy when you live alone? This very open, high-ceilinged space I live in has a wall between the kitchen area and the living area with a very wide, tall door opening and a smaller, arched opening with a counter shelf near it. That wall was once the outside of my daughter's house and is what this apartment addition was built on.

The living area and sleeping area are separated by a 8' long, 3' wide box structure which doesn't reach the ceiling and is a closet. The bathroom, of course, is a separate room, but because of the peaked roof, the top of it also doesn't reach the ceiling and creates a kind of a small loft. I love this open layout. It, the very high ceiling, many windows, including a very large triangular window over the sliding glass doors to the deck, and the skylight make a small space seem much, much larger.

Mal

BaBi
May 18, 2002 - 08:21 am
Late summer or fall is when I like to visit New England, Mal. Actually, I haven't been farther north than the Ohio/Penns./W.VA/Maryland area in the fall, but it was beautiful.

I prefer open spaces, too. One of the small (very small) pricks of living with my daughter is that she is comfortable in clutter, and I am not. I stay out of her area as much as possible, and we compromise on the computer/library/catch-all room. My impression of Thoreau's 'dream house', however, was that it was essentially the same as his small one, but large enough to accommodate visitors and guests. That is why I was complaining about the lack of privacy. ...Babi

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 18, 2002 - 06:49 pm
OH this was the most perfect day - every season we seem only to get one or two perfect days and this was a perfect Spring day - we had a norther come in yesterday evening and it blew and blew - I opened the windows and shut off the AC - which Thoreau or not, sleeping in upper 90s and 100s day after day is not my idea of really living - (Remember when Movie Theaters had large blue and white banners advertizing refigeratored or polar air) and all we had were those swamp coolers stuck out of our windows.

Well back to my day - I woke up just wanting to take advantage of the blowing wind and washed everything I could find including my large king size comforter and hung it all in cycles on the old wash line still in the backyard - had to go buy some new line and clothes pins at the hardware store - than every time I tried to come in to see what was happening on Seniornet the sun would shift and I just couldn't leave -

Had coffee mid-day and wore long pants all day - put Renata Scotto singing Madame Butterfly followed by Palestrina's two masses on the CD player and now as evening is falling I'm playing Chopin's Nocturnes - last night the yearlings where left again in my yard but I fell asleep for a change before the adults came back to claim them - today there were all sorts of birds singing and chasing the neighbors cats from my yard - thank goodness - sorry if you are a cat lover because I am not - and as the sun went very low the doves are calling to each other. Oh just a perfect day --

As Thoreau was describing his open plan house all I could do was giggle - when my daughter moved to South Carolina three and a half years ago she had a terrible time - she called me and called me - 'what am I going to do mom' - all the houses are boxes and as you open the front door the living room is on one side and the dining on the other with a stairwell up the middle - if the house is one story it still has the dining room on one side and the living on the other - they all look like brick boxes - oh where is the stone - where are the houses where the kitchen opens to the den which opens to the living room - where are the houses with combined formal living and dining - where are the L shaped or U shaped houses - mom they do not use tile on either the floors or kitchen counter tops - everything is wood mom - oh mom what am I going to do? hehehe oh the glories of moving from one area of the country to another - hahaha She lasted 2 years and than they moved 45 minutes north, just over the Border into North Carolina, to a small mountain town where they are building a post and beam house that sounds as opened as the one Thoreau suggests with bedrooms and baths the only rooms closed off.

Babi your post reminded me, my daughter also is another one that is very comfortable with everything scattered hither and yon - that trait seems to skip a generation in our family - my mother was the same way - shoot how do they find anything - of course I am as bad in that if things aren't in order with a clear area I cannot get a job done - my grandmother was a clean-up nut as I am. Sally - my sons wife, has it all figured out - she gets rid of everything extra every 6 months in a garage sale - they moved so many times (every other year for 7 moves) that nothing catches any moss in her house.

Mal with family memebers living in New England by any chance was splitting wood still something y'all had to do? And if so do you know what he is talking about when he refers to the bit about the blacksmith and his ax? The link is a lovely look at the lake - I can see how you would be missing the area - there is something about living near water - I must say though my preference is a creek or stream - most ponds and lakes are too still for me also so exposed to the sun.

He is really curious isn't he about what he observes in nature - the whole bit about the trapped air bubble in the ice I thought was facinating not because of what he learned but how his mind stayed with it till his curiousity was satisfied. I've just been reading another book and the author says something interesting trying to explain the difference between these two authors he is writing about - he say Emerson is more the lyrical naturalist and Thoreau more the scientific naturalist.

Well dark or not I just must take a walk tonight or at least go sit in the night on the patio - do you know the temp. only reached 80 today and at that for only a half hour about 4:00 - the temp. is supposed to rise as the days go on and so I want to enjoy every second of this wonder.

Malryn (Mal)
May 18, 2002 - 07:46 pm
"As for the axe, I was advised to get the village blacksmith to 'jump' it; but I jumped him, and, putting a hickory helve from the woods into it, made it do."
I've never had an axe in my hands in my life because of a handicap I have, and none of my family or I ever lived in the woods in New England. Since "helve" means handle, I figured Thoreau had broken the axe handle and put a new one on it.

Mal

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 18, 2002 - 10:58 pm
Ah yes Mal I keep forgetting - and so helves mean the handle of an ax hmmm I wonder what jumping it means - I have a feeling that is something only an old timer can tell us - not something we can look up in a dictionary.

You know it really is quite amazing the second photo of lake Winnepesaukee, if you look at the lake from the land up to the sky and not the lower part of the lake below the town and compare it to that painting there is some similarities - the artist didn't have an airoplane to look at the scenery - quite an imagination he had. Didn't you say Mal that you lived near a lake now that you can see from your window? Is it large or small?

Would you believe I have to put on a long sleaved shirt tonight over my T-shirt - this is wonderful - another good sleeping night.

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 19, 2002 - 01:54 am
Interesting -- up to now Thoreau was simplifying and telling us how little he needed to live fully - suggesting that we all need to simplify - now as winter approaches he is fondly looking at his woodpile and stocking nuts etc. He even gives up his see through cabin for plastered comfort against the cold.

Seems like while living in summer's plenty it is easy to suggest simplification but, in order to get through the rough and difficult spots in life we need to prepare and have some insurence arranged.

And so, I am thinking the 'good' family providor is a nut-gatherer that is not like the grasshopper (versus the ant) who waits till the last minute like our Henry David. This also says to me that it behooves us to establish and store some emotional and spritual food toward the rough spots that will arise in all of our lives.

I'm not sure but I think our woodpile of emotional support is in either our family or friends - although for me when I hit my rough spot I had to find a whole new cadre of friends - folks that had experrienced what I was going through since my family had all they could do to take care of themselves and friends - well what can I say - I ended up with one good, true, loving friend that stayed the course. I do not think it is easy to determine who is and who isn't capable of staying what course. And so I am thinking just building a wood pile is the practice that gives us practice in the skill that we can call on to build a new wood pile when we need it or maybe go in the woods and drag what comfort we can find home as Thoreau dragged the wood from his woods.

Malryn (Mal)
May 19, 2002 - 08:00 am
Barbara, Jordan Lake is in the next county about ten miles from where I live. The state holds 46,768 acres there in the midst of what is called "expanding urban sprawl". Of those acres, 13,900 acres were flooded to make Jordan Lake. It's a lovely place to go for boating, swimming, picnics or hikes in the woods, and there is a colony of eagles there.

At the worst time in my life I went back from New York to my hometown where I knew no one except the old man who was the uncle who raised me. I'd lived away from that area for over 25 years.

I met another old Yankee who took me under his wing. Earle wouldn't tolerate any kind of sentimentality in me, including talk of spirituality or anything that wasn't down-to-earth, day by day practicality.

Though in my high-falutin', complicated, intellectual way I resisted what he said at first, knowing him was the best thing that ever happened to me. Earle was a true New Englander, crusty, and cantankerous at times. His feet were right on the ground, and everything he said about learning to protect oneself, even from oneself, made sense. Common sense was my "woodpile" then and is to this day.

Mal

antoinette
May 19, 2002 - 03:33 pm
barbara st. aubrey----i seem to have missed this one. please let met know when the next e-reading will begin and what it will be. thanks. antoinette

BaBi
May 20, 2002 - 08:51 am
I have read Former Inhabitants and Winter Visitors and thoroughly enjoyed it. I don't think Thoreau was trying to convey any deep messages in the stories of the former inhabitants. He continues to tell us everything he learns about Walden Pond and it's vicinity, and the 'pits' in the ground overgrown with brush held stories to be told. Thoreau is at his best here, and I find myself easily able to visualize all that he describes and adapt to his mood.

On the question for Ch. 14, the location of the home-sites is significant in that they are all outside the village. If there were any black families living in the village proper, Thoreau hasn't mentioned them. It would seem that a black family might not find living in the midst of white neighbors comfortable, and preferred a bit of distance.

I found quotes I really appreciated in the "Winter Visitors", and I do believe Thoreau was telling us some things here. With the 'old farmer', they talked of "...rude and simple times, when men sat about large fires in cold, bracing weather with clear heads; and when other dessert failed, we tried our teeth on many a nut which wise squirrels have long since abandoned..." That does bring to mind the days of my youth, when I and other idealistic young savants would naively take up the solving of the world's problems. Now I am a wiser squirrel, and have abandoned those empty nuts.

I think the poet must have been a young man, like Thoreau, since his visits were the occasion of so much "boisterous mirth", laughter and jest. I was pleased to read of his visits, as I feared Henry David might tend to be a bit too solemn and pompous,in spite of his obvious wit.

Who can tell me who the Connecticut philosopher is that Thoreau praises so highly? His description of their talks brought to my mind the sort of open, accepting give-and-take we try to achieve in our SeniorNet discussions. Don't you love this quote?: "Having each some shingles of thought well tried, we sat and whittled them, trying our knives, and admiring the clear yellowish grain of the pumpkin pine. We waded so gently and reverently, or we pulled together so smoothly, that the fishes of thought were not scared from the stream, nor feared any angler on the bank..."

We all have our shingles of thought, and enjoy trying out our knives in whittling them for discussion, and admiring the color of one another's thoughts. And we try to wade gently, so as not to scare off any "fishes" (or whittlers) who made want to join us. ...Babi

Malryn (Mal)
May 20, 2002 - 09:31 am
I've read this chapter, too, Babi. The poet might have been Ellery Channing, who apparently often visited Thoreau at Walden Pond. The "philosopher" was a man of the road who "peddled his wares and afterward his brain". Thoreau also thought the Canadian woodsman was something of a philosopher, too, didn't he?

Surprising, isn't it, that there had been such a colony by Walden Pond? Cato, Zilpha, Brister Freeman, the Irishman, Quoil, and a tavern to boot. There couldn't have been many slaves in Concord, since there weren't many black people in Massachusetts in that day. Those slave-owners who gave land and a cabin to slaves did them a good deed. They were away from the "master's" house and work and demands and had a place of their own.

When I was growing up northeast of Concord, there were only four black families in the city of close to 40,000 people. I visited one of my sisters where she lives fairly north in Maine a few years ago. We went from the tiny seacoast town where she lives to a small city to a supermarket, and suddenly I noticed something missing. "Where are the black people?" I asked, having flown up from a place in the South where many, many Blacks live. "There aren't any," my sister said, and it appeared to be true. There were plenty of French Canadians, though, in that part of Maine which is not all that far from the Province of Quebec. How did I recognize them? By the way they talked.

When harsh winter weather comes in northern New England, everybody holes in and does inside things. In Thoreau's day roads weren't plowed and salted as they are today. You're stocked up for the winter and don't go out unless you absolutely must. Very few people come to the door, and you wait in vain for "the visitor that never comes".

No one I ever knew up there considered himself or herself "marginalized". Winter comes every year and with it snow and ice and frigid cold that keep people home. It was expected and accepted by all. The only real bother was winter's length. By the middle of March, everyone was champing at the bit to get out.

Thoreau's description of watching the owl reminded me of a time when I couldn't get out, and I watched the life and times of a spider in its web on the glass of the door.

The covered wells can only represent the end of something. Wells are covered when they run dry. Having a well run dry is something everyone fears. Without water nearby, it's darned hard to live. Some people might equate the covered well with death. I don't. Perhaps it's because I've seen so many wells like those Thoreau describes.

So many fires in this chapter. With a wood stove or fireplace as the only source of heat and for cooking, there always was the chance of fire. Remember Thoreau's saying in an earlier chapter that the fire in the fireplace spat a good-sized coal on his bed? Lucky he found it when he did. The picture evoked by Thoreau's description of the fire brigade which was contemplating throwing the frog pond on the fire amused me.

Thoreau refers to Hinduism again with his mention of the Vishnu Purana, which had 18 verses, just as Walden has 18 chapters.

This is an interesting and entertaining chapter without very much of a philosophical nature in it as far as I can see. Others may interpret it differently.

Mal

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 20, 2002 - 12:55 pm
Antoinette hope having received my e-mail last night you will still join us for a bit -

Babi I have looked and looked and cannot figure out who this philosopher from Connecticut is - we are going to have to see if Harold's annotated editions has any information - Mal I think is right that the poet is his good friend Channing.

I loved that allusion that thoughts or brain matter is like the nut inside the kernnel or seed pod.

I wonder - it didn't sound to me like the families had a choice as to where they lived - sounded like their homestead was chosen for them - but here it is winter and Thoreau reminisces about all these families no longer alive - as if the dead of winter is similar to the families whose skeleton like homesites are marked by leftover gardens and bushes and trees.

I do not see them as often any longer, maybe because we travel interstate highways but, I remember when I was younger often driving past a spot that you just knew was the site of someone's home because of the way the daffodils and the bushes were growing - sometimes even the chimney was still there in its crumbling state. Of course by now even these tell tale signs of their once existence must be grown over and yet they live on in this Book.

The bit that had me going last night was when he explained that when he created a path in the snow by walking the dead oak leaves still hanging on to trees blew into the path marking the trail and keeping his feet dry. That hit me because how often I Reach a winter in my life and find myself lost in an emotional and sometimes spiritual winter. And the more I thought I Realized it is the bits and specks old and dried up that seem to be my trail or rope back.

Back to our families that live outside of town - they all seem to have in common that they were not looked upon as Concord's favorite sons and yet these are the folks that Thoreau for the first time isn't lumping together judging them incompetent in some fashion or other. Some how the picture of everyone standing around even joking with each other when the house was burning seemed such a stark contrast to the grown man returning and peering through the burned wreckage for any sign of his family. It reminded me of the TV news today - how one man's tragedy becomes group entertainment.

The tone of this chapter gave me the impression where Thoreau says he enjoyed the solitude he sounded like every visitor was precious which is a change from his earlier musings about visitors - he still seems to like his visitors in small numbers and this is the first that he actually talks about laughing. I get a sense that he is lonely in this chapter between reminiscing about families long gone and fondly remembering his visitors as well as his solitary walks and being cut off from the village by the snow - he is cozy but the tone here seems melancholy.

Mal I didn't know that covered wells were a sign of death - I guess the wells could be a sign of a dead or departed family but Thoreau's description to me sounded more like the sweet water that sustains the life of those living near the well is still there and symbolic for the sweet goodness from the Creator.

Since he spoke of all these families that seemed marginalized by the village and therefore living in their own village, as he described it - a village that didn't continue and therefore wasn't sucessful - I wonder if he was including himself in that group - and maybe even happy to do so - since he does give status to each of these families by not only recongnizing them but bringing them to life for us where as he does not do that for any of the village folks. As if a turn on society saying we who society considers marginalized since we do not fit the pattern are really more productive and are the foundation of your lives - from the potter who made the dishes you eat off, to the linen weaver of your tablecloths, another who grew walnuts that one of you ended up commercializing etc.

Wonderful bit Mal about the 18 versus and the 18 chapters.

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 20, 2002 - 01:02 pm
Interesting - while looking to find this philosopher I found that Whittman corrisponded with Emerson and published some private letters they exchanged without Emerson's approvel - most folks saw it as a publicity gambit to get folks to read Whittman's poems - It seems to me Emerson is the king pin during this time with all these writers. Hawthorne being married, so far all I have found is Thoreau visiting Hawthorne and not the other way around but, I wonder what Hawthorne's relationship was with Emerson. Did he also see Emerson as the King of the domaninion.

Babi I love your comparison of our discussions here on seniornet as similar to the discussion Thoreau must have enjoyed with his friends.

And along those lines Mal I would never have picked up on all the fires if you hadn't mentioned them. - life giving - protection - passion - truth - light and heat which can represent the intellect and the emotions - oh yes and lets not forget the 'Tongues of flame' which tie in with his visitors sharing companionable conversations. Great sympolism isn't it.

Malryn (Mal)
May 20, 2002 - 01:32 pm
Thoreau says:

"What a sorrowful act must that be--the covering up of wells!"

It is this that made me think of the finality of death in relation to these wells.

It's too bad, Barbara, that you didn't have an old Yankee in your life to point out to you that the only winter that exists for you or anyone else is the real, cold, snowy, frosty one outside your window while you are snug and warm inside, and go on to tell you there is no winter in your life except the frigid, cold, snowbound winter of Nature outside your self.

Thoreau's philosophy was not based on weather. The essence of a New England winter is winter itself, which, as I've said before was expected and accepted. It brought no new thoughts, really, except about keeping warm. Spring was when productive, creative thoughts came alive.

I said before in this discussion that Emerson was the greater of the two -- Emerson and Thoreau. Emerson was the innovator, the true thinker, the real philosopher. As generations go by, I am sure what I say will be proven true, as it has before.

Let's round out the circle and study Emerson, shall we?

Mal

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 20, 2002 - 01:44 pm
Oh Mal I am simply using what I read and making it relevant to my life - that is all we can do with anything we read really isn't it or else we never get any messages from authors.

I am a big one on the cultivation of thinking as discribed in a Journal article some years ago that said something to the affect that reading material we process it transforming the data into information which is than truned into knowledge by comparing it to something we already know, reflecting and playing with it, in time the understanding deepens into wisdom.

And so my experience may not include the seclusion of being snowed in for weeks and months at a time but like all literature I can get the essence by comparing the illustrated example to my own experiences, in this case of isolation.

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 20, 2002 - 01:50 pm
The wells are covered over and the land is covered with frozen water (snow) hmmm something about covering life here - I do not know but the covering all of a sudden hit me.

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 20, 2002 - 07:40 pm
Goodness Mel I do not understand how you would think you are in the wrong place - we all get something different from a read and that is the beauty of a group discussion - your needs are satisfied differently than mine and probably djfferent than Babi's or Harold's or anyone else reading and discussing a book on Seniornet - at this stage in our lives I think we all have learned what works for us and is the most successful way for our continued growth and learning -

Isn't it grand that we now have the computer and the internet so that isolation is not what it was at one time - I bet this has been a saving grace for you.

Malryn (Mal)
May 20, 2002 - 08:28 pm
Barb:

Building web pages for my electronic magazines takes most of my time. The rest is spent in working for the Writers Exchange WREX and writing my books. All of my work is done offline or on my FTP site, not on the internet. Stops at SeniorNet are my coffee break. I was recently hired to do some web pages for an author I know. In other words, I'm busy, and won't be bothering you any more. Thank you for your fine work in this discussion.

P.S.

My name is Marilyn. My friends and family call me MAL from MALRYN. My brother couldn't pronounce my name when he was little and called me Malryn, you see.

You're right. I don't admire Henry David Thoreau very much. The reason? Lack of originality, high-flown ideas about people and life, and an aversion to work.

Thanks again for a good job well done.

Mal

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 20, 2002 - 08:35 pm
We loved your participation Mel and hope you find some time and can join us for the final chapter and wrap-up next week. Good luck on your excellant online magazine.

Well found that Gandibert is a seventeenth century poem - here is a link to the Preface of Gondibert by Sir William Davenant

Malryn (Mal)
May 20, 2002 - 08:38 pm
You're very gracious. Barb. It's MAL, not MEL, in case we meet again.

Oh. yes. Two of your very fine poems will appear in the June-July-August issue of the m.e.stubbs poetry journal, which will go on the web at the end of this month, as will the June issue of The WREX Magazine. I'll post in the Library when the journal issue goes on the web. The July-August issue of Sonata will be on the web at the end of June.

Mal

Harold Arnold
May 20, 2002 - 09:04 pm
The Poet: The annotations in my edition of Walden say the Poet referred to in Chapter 14 was William Ellery Channing. The annotation indicates that at the time of the Walden experiment Channing was living 3 miles North of Thoreau’s cabin and he was accustomed to taking long walks even in the winter. A google search on “William Ellery Channing” yields many hits most of which seem to concern a Concord Unitarian who lived and wrote in the area between 1780 and 1842. So this Channing could not have visited Thoreau between 1845 and 1847 when he lived at the pond. I am sure Thoreau’s friend was a son of the Senior Channing who died in 1842 as the designation, Jr., follows his name where it appears elsewhere in my book

The Philosopher: An annotation says this was Bronson Alcott. The annotation indicates that the Alcott had been the subject of earlier Thoreau writings.. A long section of the earlier writing on Bronson Alcott is quoted.. In the earlier writing Thoreau mentioned Alcott as “a geometer, a visionary, the Laplace of ethics.” The earlier Thoreau writing ends, “…when Alcott’s day comes, laws will take effect, and masters of families and rulers will come to him for advice-- (I know of a Pierre Laplace the 18th century French Mathematician best know as the inventor of the “Laplace Transforms” a method for solving certain complex differential equations).

Again a google search on the string Bronson Alcott yields many hits including the following that links the names of Emerson, Thoreau and Alcott as the “Oracles of Concord” without really telling us much why? The Oracles of Concord

Yesterday evening after work at the ITC I stopped by the big Barnes And Noble retail store to buy some books. By chance I ran across a Cliffs Notes on Thoreau’s, “Walden.” This you might recognize is a commercial crib sheet sold to college freshmen who use it in hope of avoiding reading the work. This outline offers the following interpretation on role of the Poet and the Philosopher in Chapter 14:
A Poet also visited him and together they made “that small house ring with boisterous mirth and resound with the murmur of much sober talk. A philosopher also stopped by. He was a great, ideal man whose personality made plain the image engraven in men’s bodies, the God of whom they are all but defaced and leaning monuments.” The narrator (always assumed by me to be Thoreau himself) was inspired by his conversation with the philosopher and felt a heightened spiritual awareness.


How well in your opinion did the above interpretation describe the meaning of Thoreau’s words describing these visitors?

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 20, 2002 - 10:51 pm
Harold thanks so for the information - we just could not figure out who the philosopher was that Thoreau speaks of in this chapter.

As to the cliff notes and your question -- I liked what Babi said when she described that exchange as similar to Seniornet where we share -- and yes at times we share a giggle or a roll on the floor laugh and other times we are sharing our "theory of life" whether over a dish of gruel or not I can not say but Thoreau does say that combining the jest, the contemplating a 'bran new' theory of life along with a dish of gruel is what "philosophy requires."

I can say many a cup of coffee of tea accompanies me as I visit here on Seniornet.

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 20, 2002 - 11:02 pm
Whoops Mal I know better but somehow the Mel was typed in - sorry - it may not help but to let you know last night when I e-mailed Antoinette I spelled her name Antonett. Between spelling and typing errors and now mind slips communications has been a challange - what a surprise and how wonderful I am really looking forward to the publication - two - my word - two - the best part will be getting some feedback from others - that is what I have been seeking, feedback from those who know poetry. Thank you!

BaBi
May 21, 2002 - 12:19 pm
Thanks for identifying Bronson Alcott for me, Harold. What Thoreau had to say about him made me want to learn more. I'll be looking him up. ..Babi

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 21, 2002 - 01:24 pm
I really enjoyed reading Winter Animals almost like a child's story of animals in the winter - Thoreau almost sounded annoyed with the squirrel's erratic path to the corn - while he was describing the squirrel's activities it reminded me more of a bunch of kids that sent one brave soul out ahead to grab the prize and bring it back before they would all go according to their courage. I don't think I ever saw a bluejay eat something it couldn't manage and actually see it regorge the offending morsel.

That lake is sure covered isn't it - first with a foot or more of ice and than another foot or two of snow - I wonder why a pail of snow isn't just brought in and melted over the fire for water -

In some ways I don't see too much change in Thoreau's temperment - where he was railing about the villagers now he rails about the habits of animals and yet there is a cheerfulness about him. He isn't really dark and somber. Good thing I would say since he is closed in and his own company. Awful thing to be in a dark mood as your own company.

Listening to sounds - there is a lilt I must agree when you walk in the woods that just does not penetrate my house. The past few days have been so lovely with the windows and doors open - I hear the wind in the trees and various birds with an occasional vehicle driving by on a street over from me. My mood has been rather even these last few days - but when I get down hmmm yes, that is when I am sure to put some music on - if I am sad inevitably I put on Puccini's La Bohème and if I feel that I must rustle myself from a sad mood or if I feel out of sorts than it is Beethoven. Usually the symphonies - they stirr the pot like no other for me - now If I am in a good mood that is when I seem to want to hear some vocalists - from Joan Baez to Michael Ball to Iris De Ment and of course a John Denver on and on.

more later - must run

Harold Arnold
May 22, 2002 - 09:15 am
One or the things that impress me concerning the winter wildlife seen by Thoreau was indications that already in the mid-1840’s significant wildlife changes brought about by an increasingly large population had occurred and were occurring. Some examples: There is no mention of the hearing or sighting of wolves or cat like animals such as the lynx. The only mention of the bear was a reference to it as being hunted by an old hunter (in earlier days). The only contemporary sighting of a carnivorous animal is the fox being chased by foxhunters or independently by dogs. And in addition I remember no mention of the moose as a Thoreau visitor and there are just a few comments placing deer in the area. Also I now recall no mention of wild turkey?

Since I think all of the above mentioned animals were originally native at the Walden area, I take the absence of discussion concerning these animals as an indication that already in Thoreau’s time, these animals had left the area.

Thoreau was of course NO HUNTER! This was most evident from his non-participation in the moose hunt during his first (of three) two-week vacation to the Maine woods in early September 1846. This was while Thoreau lived at Walden. His traveling companion was a cousin whose purpose was to hunt moose. This involved a night hunt from a canoe led by their Indian guide. The party of three made their way along the lakeshore in the moon lit middle night, along back coves and up creeks. Thoreau was present as the cousin shot his moose, but never did he himself shoot. As I recall he participated in the Moose steak meals prepared by the Indian during the remainder of the trip.

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 22, 2002 - 10:05 am
Harold yes and didn't he say that one man preserved the horn of the last deer that was killed in the vicinity - These woods are pretty empty aren't they.

Harold have you ever been over the Leakey just down from the Lost Maples State Park west of Hunt and Kerrville - the general store at Leakey still buys the pelts of animals and the prices were posted outside the door last time I was over there.

It has been a couple of years now but I always went in the Fall and then in mid-winter since I could hike over that mountain without the summer campers slowing me down - It was that winter visit that I always loved - by the time I drove from Austin and of course stopped in Fredricksburg for a late Breakfast, it was just after noon that I would get started and leave just as the sun was dipping around 5: - Well on the way back to Hunt there would be herd after herd of hundreds of deer and crossing those low spots along the river I really had to drive slowly as dark descended. And this was after hunting season was over.

Interesting as we see this man change his opinion about hunting - in an early chapter he believes parents should allow if not encourage their children to learn to hunt and than later he desides this is not the ideal activity - I wonder if conservations was beginning to soak in if there was already a derth of wild animals in the area. He may have thought that preparing meat and fish was a mess but I can't imagine that was his only reason not to hunt. They certainly didn't have to worry about thinning out any herds did they.

His story about the hunting dogs out on their own could so easily be made into a humorous tale where as he seemed to be telling it with a straight face. But than if we are to believe the various books examining this text, that whole issues of dogs and farmers and the fox is supposed to represent his view of the villagers who with little discipline meander here and there with lots of howls as they go after their prize that a philosopher sitting quietly will down without all the hoot and howling effort.

I'm thinking that for some of us the game is as important a part of life as achieving the prize. But than there are all kinds of games that matter to folks. Some take a lot of thinking and planning effort and others take a lot of physical effort.

BaBi
May 22, 2002 - 10:17 am
I, too, was a bit saddened to think that by Thoreau's day the deer were already gone, and the horns from the last one were hanging on someone's wall.

Learned something new: never heard of a cat owl before. Something startling: a diet drink?!!! In Thoreau's time? I am curious to know what that could have been.

Barbara, I don't think Mr. T. was really ranting about the animals. He loved every minute of it, and was delighted, as I certainly would have been, with their ease in his company. I would consider a season alone in the woods well worth it if sparrows and chickadees perched on my shoulder or the load in my arms, and squirrels thought nothing of running across my feet by way of a shortcut.

He touches on point manking has too often ignored, with sometimes disastrous results, and that is that nature knows what she is doing. From the mice girdling the pitch pines, to the lean length of the hare, there always seems to be a purpose to the natural development of things. We would do better to observe what nature wants to do, and how, and follow that path rather than impose some of our bright ideas. ...Babi

Harold Arnold
May 22, 2002 - 11:27 am
Barbara i have been to Lost Maples,but not too often as it is quite distant and there are other places closer. I did enjoy its hiking trails thorugh the hills and the maples along the creek.

More often I go to Fredericksburg where my brother lives when he is not in New Mexico. Many times I have been up Enchanted Rock. For you non-Texans, this is the second largest monolith in North America, second to Stone Mountain, Georga. The last time I was there my back was a bit of a problem, but I was greatly assisted by brothers 90 pound golden retriver dog. I just hung on the leash and the eager dog did the work. I just moved my feet and we were at the top in a record time (for me)

I may have made one mistake in my previous post, The moose hunt I mentioned may have been the object of the second trip. I'm now thinking the climbing of mount Katlin was the objective of the first Maine trip. I'll check.

Thoreau made it to the top of the mountain but his companion did not. He waited for Thoreau at a lower elevation. At the top Thoreau could not see much because of the dense clouds that obscured the view. He characterized the top as a cloud factory. Despite the fact that there was no view Thoreau was very elated and pleased with his experience at the top.

Nellie Vrolyk
May 22, 2002 - 11:33 am
BaBi, yes nature does know what it is doing and I think that we would be much better off if we let nature do its thing without our help.

I love the word 'cronched'! It describes perfectly the sound that snow can make as you walk through it. I have cronched my way through snow many a time. And when it gets really cold, then snow squeaks as I walk and I go along 'squeak, squeak, squeak' with every step. When it warms and the snow becomes slushy then the sound of walking is something like 'slssp, slssp, slssp'.

I love how silent the world can be after a new snowfall.

I like this piece:
I weathered some merry snow-storms, and spent some cheerful winter evenings by my fireside, while the snow whirled wildly without, and even the hooting owl was hushed.


When I can't fall asleep I imagine myself in a small cabin in winter, sitting by a cozy fire -just like Thoreau describes-and as I visualize myself looking at the dancing flames and feeling the heat, I fall asleep in no time.

We had a squirrel here who went about hiding nuts in all our flower pots, and it would be followed by a blue jay which would 'unpot' the hidden nuts and take them for itself.

I'm thinking about some of the questions and will have some thoughts on those later on.

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 22, 2002 - 11:34 am
Aha Babi how out of touch so many of us are with nature - yes wouldn't it be lovely to have birds and small animals surround us so that we could watch their habits. I'm thinking though the line that makes it all so difficult is one between nature and commerce.

I think part of man becoming more civilized is based on farming and ranching rather than spending our days as hunters and gatherers - as knowledge expanded some of the early ways we chose to supply ourselves with the basics of life were replaced with less invasive practices but, unfortunately, much of nature is disturbed by the time the new technology is figured out.

I guess I am remembering what it was like when I was a kid and the pan under the refrigerator was a constant source of disaster for remembering to empty it in time and canned goods were still thought dangerous so that nearly all foods were preserved by my mom all summer long - thank goodness we did have a gas stove where as my grandmother still had her wood burning stove and an out-house. Than I have to question if I am really better off today with all these conveniences, many that pollute the atmosphere, than we were back 60 plus years ago.

Oh I could point to all the changes and how they have separated our family and how I've replaced one work detail for another and how the change of season does not seem to matter as much and owning many pairs of shoes is a luxury that in the scheme of things is not that important - but than I look at health care - I had all kinds of serious illnesses before penicillin and took the first sulfur tablets when I had scarlet fever with an accompanying ear infection and I still remember the trauma it was so gross- I see that all my children have college under their belts and even I was able to attend college when they were school age because I was not tied to growing and preserving our own food although I still sewed most of their clothes.

So to carry the thread of these changes from my family to what it takes to provide this lifestyle and what it does to nature becomes less clear - no, I am not an out and out do what you will with the environment in the name of commerce but than, I do not think going back to a society dependent on nature and letting nature take its course is the answer either - if it were only natural selection on the felling of trees by animals but, nature left alone means floods and unchecked fires started by lightening and decease that spreads to domestic livestock and an overpopulation of a wild animal allowing death by starving - so lots to think about.

Babi this Spring we had a Curious Mind discussion on the impact of cities on the environment and that was when I learned that mega-cities are created by the poor. Without the employment opportunities of a city that attracts so many from the countryside the level of decease and starvation in the countryside would continue unabated.

Having hiked into the mountains of Mexico and visiting family after family that still live near a river as their only source of water, no electricity or phone service and are living from crop to crop so that if there is a crop failure the family knows death will visit the hut (adobe with thatched roof) that winter, was all a stark reminder of how desperate living off the land can be. Ah so - do not mean to get off on my anxiety kick here - but it is a balance that does not seem to have any simple answers and that makes me question so much.

I must say in this chapter Thoreau paints a picture close to Walt Diseny's version of the woods and it is a delight. Not only had I not heard of a cat owl but in an earlier chapter he spoke of a cat with wings which also knocked the sox off me.

And yes, what is this diet drink in the 1840s. I had a family member who strung electric wiring all over the nation and spent time in upstate New York where he spoke of drinking sasperilla (sp) and Birch beer. Both soda pop drinks that were not familiar to us. So maybe soft drinks are older than coke-a-cola. Need to check into this one --

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 22, 2002 - 12:16 pm
Oh my did not see all your posts when I responded to Babi -

Harold between you and your brother you both have established the best of worlds for yourselves - bravo - its true isn't it - Thoreau seems to have an upbeat view on nearly all his undertakings - no gritching over a cloud cover but rather he was pleased and elated.

Nellie and so you have "cronched" thru snow - the word sounds like something I can feel in my teeth - you really have the sounds of snow in your head - how wonderful - interesting the fantasy visions we have that allows us to relax - a fire in a cabin in the woods - ah what a lovely image.

Well what can I say - the post responding to Babi said it in that I am not convinced that mother nature always knows what's best. Ah so... we all have our opinions don't we.

With all the sounds you hav conjured up for us Nellie it is hard now to see this as the meloncholy chapter that most analysts suggest. It is a simpler chapter without as many of his insights and opinions added to the words of the chapter. Although the animal stories are supposed to allude to larger issues they are such a delight just reading for their own sake. The imagery of that squarrel as he described his foray toward feeding is still in my minds eye.

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 22, 2002 - 12:20 pm
Well here it is -- amazing how old is the making and drinking of soft drinks --
The history of American Soft Drinks - the first commercial soft drink available in 1830

The history of Pop - the first drinkable, man made glass of carbonated water in 1767 - Ginger Al was created in Ireland!

Make your own

Root Beers went through a major trauma in the 1960s, when the Food and Drug Administration banned any sassafras extract...

Malryn (Mal)
May 22, 2002 - 01:18 pm
I had to come in. First, I apologize for my testy mood the other day. I had the flu for several weeks and was about at the end of my rope because of coughing day and night and lack of sleep. Today I feel better, so perhaps I'll be able to mind my manners!

Harold, that mountain in Maine is Mt. Katahdin. Plenty of moose up near Moosehead Lake in Maine. Elk, too. Have you ever been to that gorgeous, rustic lake or to Mt. Katahdin or Mt. Desert? The natives call that Mt. DESSERT, by the way.

I have to tell you of a soft drink that was created by Dr. Augustin Thompson in Union, Maine which still isn't more than a very small town. It was made as a nerve tonic, and he called it Moxie. That's where the term "You've got a lot of Moxie" came from. It was made from roots, is more bitter than it is sweet, and you really perk up when you drink it. The Moxie business was founded in 1884, but it had been around a long time before that. At first it was sold by peddlers door to door, and people bought it to improve manhood, help relieve "female trouble", cure paralysis and any number of other things. Don't forget that when Coca Cola was first made it contained cocaine.

I love Moxie, but as far as I know, you still can't buy this soft drink outside New England. By the way, in northern New England soft drinks are called "TONIC".

There are plenty of wild animals here in North Carolina and up in the Maine woods. Wolves have been spotted here close to where I live. There are bears and foxes and plenty of wild animals in the mountains in the western part of the state, as there are in the White Mountains in New Hampshire. When I lived in Florida people kept spotting Florida panthers. I never saw one.

It's hard to keep a garden here because of the number of deer there are. These deer can be a real hazard on a country road at night, and many accidents have occurred nearby because a driver didn't see the deer on the road.

It was the shock of my life when I opened the curtains on the glass doors to the deck one night and found myself staring into the eyes of a very wild possum. Another possum got into a bag of garbage I had on the porch of a country house where I lived alone in North Durham and scared me to death. A beautiful buck greeted me another morning when I was living in my daughter's studio before this apartment addition was built. He was standing on the patio right outside my door and looked right in through the glass door at me.

Okay here's Moxie.
WHAT IS MOXIE?

Malryn (Mal)
May 22, 2002 - 02:17 pm
I found a site where I can order Moxie for $12.95 a six pack. Are they kidding me? I have a friend in Massachustts and one in Connecticut, as well as relatives in MA, NH and Maine, who would send me Moxie a lot cheaper than that.

Mal

Harold Arnold
May 22, 2002 - 02:43 pm
Mal, thanks for giving the correct spelling of the name of the mountain. I guess I had a pretty good ideal I was spelling it incorrectly but was too lazy to look it up. So it is Mt. Katahdin, very much an Indian name. I guess the wonder is that I got the first 3 letters right

No I have never been in this part of Maine. The closest I’ve come was a 1988 professional meeting at St Andrew New Brunswick. My company routed me by air to Bangor and then by rented car to St Andrew. I took the coastal road up to St Andrew. The trip is most remembered for the whale-watching trip on the Bay of Fundy (see pictures links below). On the return trip I took a more inland route to Bangor and saw much scenic country but we were still to far east to see Katahdin or the lake system that was visited by Thoreau.

Deep Dive

Thar She Blows....!

Malryn (Mal)
May 22, 2002 - 03:06 pm
Did you take those photos, Harold? They're great!

Mal

Harold Arnold
May 22, 2002 - 07:48 pm
Mal, I took the pictures with my nikon camera with a 200 mm lens. I made the scan with 1998 scanning technology and redused and compressed thim for my first web page. I should scan them again in a larger format as the picture are much sharper than these appear.

LouiseJEvans
May 23, 2002 - 10:24 am
I remember Moxie and also the calling soft drinks tonic. I didn't know Moxie was still made. I wouldn't mind having some now.

BaBi
May 23, 2002 - 02:42 pm
Nellie, I'll try your method next time I have trouble falling asleep. The lovely fire might not work, tho', if it is hot feet (nerves lying to me) keeping me awake. And blue jays, beautiful as they are, are notorious thieves!

Barbara, I don't know why I had the idea that 'sodas' were a modern thing. We all know from the Westerns of our childhood that saloons had 'sarsparilla', tho' of course any man ordering it made himself a laughing stock. Real men drank whiskey!

I'm far from being an expert in the area of floods and fires, but I have been under the impression that floods threatening human habitations are usually the result of human mishandling of the environment in the first place. And I do know that there is a species of pine that can only reproduce when the cones are subjected to the intense heat of a fire. So lightning struck trees and the resultant fires were also a part of nature's pattern. Of course, once people moved into the area, they were more concerned with their own life span than that of the pines!

I've been reading the "Winter Pond" chapter, and can only commend Henry David's scientific approach to the claims of a "bottomless" pond. His observations and conclusions are impressive, considering the very simple tools he was using. Yet do you know what all the measuring reminded me of? Ezekiel, and his angel with the measuring rod, meticulously measuring every wall, room, nook, step, gate, etc., etc., of the Temple. Such painstaking effort. ....Babi

Harold Arnold
May 23, 2002 - 04:39 pm
Thoreau, the surveyor in Chapter 16, “The Pond In Winter,” tells of his survey of the pond made during the winter of 1846. He cut through the ice through which he could take soundings. He used these holes as window through which he could view the fish swimming deep below and even see and study the bottom.

True, Ba Bi Thoreau’s instruments were primitive, but I see from information in my annotated edition that he used a method that might have been used 50 years ago when I worked as a surveyor. He set up a traverse system consisting of one principal east/west line the (longest east/west length axis), and three north/south breadth (width) lines. Thoreau then located some 75-test points on these lines. At each of these points he chiseled a hole through the ice and measured the depth with a stone weighted measuring line . The deepest of his 75 points measured 102 feet deep. Thoreau later added 5 feet to this figure to account for a subsequent rise in the surface level. That makes his deepest measure depth at 107 feet. While this is a rather deep pond, it is considerable less deep than “bottomless” as it was previously rumored to have been.

My annotated copy includes a small reproduction of Thoreau’s sketch showing the traverse lines through the lake the location of the test points and the depth at each point. It also shows plots of the depth across the east/west length line and the widest north/south breadth line.

Thoreau noted that the deepest point came at the intersection of the longest length line (the east/west axis) and the widest of the three-north/south axis on which he took soundings. On this information he speculated that this configuration at Walden might apply as well to the oceans of the world as well as to its other ponds and puddles. In Thoreau’s words:
I laid a rule on the map lengthwise and then breadthwise and found to my surprise that the line of greatest length intersected the line of greatest breath exactly at the point of greatest depth, not withstanding that the middle is so nearly level, the outline of the pond is far from regular, and the extreme lengths and breaths were got by measuring into the coves; I said to myself, Who knows but this hint would conduct to the deepest part of the ocean as well as of a pond or puddle?


I don’t think this Thoreau universal theory relating depth to length and breadth has been shown as valid. Nonetheless Thoreau shows himself as a competence civil engineer/surveyor in his completion of this survey of the pond.

Nellie Vrolyk
May 23, 2002 - 06:22 pm
Barbara, I need a bit of clarification on one of the questions. When you ask 'How successful is Thoreau turning inward exclusively for inspiration?' by 'inward' do you mean that he turns his thoughts upon himself and his own nature?

Meanwhile, I like the way Thoreau conjures up in his mind the former occupants of those woods, and in that way makes us aware that once a small village existed where he is more or less alone. He introduces us to each person: Cato Ingraham, a slave; Zilpah, a colored woman, who spun linen; Brister Freeman, a slave and Fenda his wife; the Stratton family, who had an orchard; Breed, who lived in or near a tavern; Nutting and Le Grosse; Wyman the potter; and Hugh Quoil.

Did Thoreau know all these people from actually having seen them? Or had he learned about them from others?

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 24, 2002 - 03:24 am
Monster headache yesterday and so in the middle of the night I am now awake - and I've commitments tomorrow or is tomorrow already this morning - I wonder if Thoreau ever got a headache or a cold hmmm.

Welcome Louise have you been lurking all this time? Hope to see you jump in more often.

Babi I just have to comment on the nature rules concept you shared - most of the flooding we hear about along the Mississippi was reported to have been because of man made dikes etc. But Austin flooded regularly, in fact all the land along the Colorado flooded causing untold damage, taking soil with it till the Dams were constructed in the 1930s - not being a historian of flooding it seems there may be as many good uses of man organizing nature as there are interference’s - But I think you said it all when you brought out people.

If there were no people and homes than I am sure nature could continue unabated but - where would all the people go than? It seems to me it is that balance between people and nature we must develope and yes, I agree there are many that prefer to "use" the land and the seas, for that matter, for their own profit. But I also think some destruction is because it took awhile for folks to learn what to do, what the problems were that they were creating - example it wasn't till after the Dust bowl that the concept of leaving a field fallow every 3rd year was even an imagined concept. And so to me the idea of leaving nature as is, is a romantic idea that is not fully taking into consideration that a growing population needs a place to live and work. That balance is hard to achieve but that to me is what is more realistic and, we may disagree on this one Babi but that is OK if it is OK with you.

Harold a surveyor as well - you have had some interesting jobs. He did a thorough job explaining exactly what he did don't you think. With all the measuring and than his description of them taking the ice, more and more I began to realize the Pond was the center of everything emotionally, spiritually, even sustaining Thoreau physically - the Pond is the center of his universe. Than I remembered when we read chapter 17 Spring, and he described the thumping of the Pond - well it was like a heart beat - again helping with the image of this Pond being his center as a heart pumps the blood that keeps us alive. Harold do you see your pond as the center of your homestead and more important representing your heartfelt feelings for your home?

Vaguely I am remembering a conversation about why glaciers are blue - I think it is because of the oxygen in the ice - does anyone know for sure - because Thoreau talks about the blue of the ice from Walden's Pond. I wonder if he was alluding to Blue Blood therefore, the more valuable or respected Pond.

Nallie yes - and I am not sure now what is considered by Thoreau as inward but certainly a question to ponder - is Thoreau turning inward to his own thoughts and I would say although I am not sure if Thoreau would say, inward includes his spirituality versus what is physically outside of himself. Hmmm does he consider nature as outside himself or as a part of him, as if he and the animal and the pond and the fish and the snow all are of one piece - that is sort of question to ponder and there is really no right or wrong answers but rather, an opportunity to examine Thoreau through this book, ourselves - ponder and share.

Hmmm maybe that says more about the concept Babi of leaving nature to do its thing - and we live with nature not attempting to control it - but that would go so against thousands of years of Western Culture that has us purging what is natural and being better than nature which is supposed to be the source of sin -

Wow this conversation could go on and on as we look at the source of how we feel not only separate from nature but we are taught to be superior to it and therefore, as a superior species we feel it is only right to control what is inferior especially, if it has been blamed as the base instinct that is the root of all evil. No wonder it is so hard for folks to embrace nature. Not only is nature Eve's apple but it is the source of our sustenance - the wine and bread - the three fishes that fed the thousands etc. etc.

I am trying to figure out what represents my center - hmmm need to ponder on that one for awhile.

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 24, 2002 - 03:31 am
This is a commerical site for hiking but it has photos of Loch Fyne - it loads a bit slow because of all the photos but if you scroll down to the schedule there are photos of the Lock itself in addition to all the photos of rhe area around the loch.

William Gilpin - this site includes one of his paintings, and a list of books by landscape gardener, poet, landscape artist, Oxford educated cleric Rev. William Gilpin (1724-1804), a schoolmaster in Surrey for 25 years and founder of a progressive charitable institution, built an influential theory on the convergence of travel and artistic recreation. From 1768 to 1776 he made 9 summer voyages throughout England, Scotland and Wales, is associated with the garden designs at Balcaskie, Fife, and Scotney Castle, Kent.

Jane Austin references Gilpin's Three Essays on Picturesque Beauty in Northanger Abbey also Alludes to Gilpin:
"The picturesque would be spoilt by admitting a fourth"
in Pride and Prejudice, chapter 10;
"Every body pretends to feel and tries to describe with the taste and elegance of him who first defined what picturesque beauty was"
Sense and Sensibility chapter 18

BaBi
May 24, 2002 - 11:32 am
Whoo-eee! That is a whole 'nother topic, Barbara. We would need another forum entirely to take up clarifying the question of sin as arising from "the flesh" vs. "nature". To me, our nature is the way God made us. We get in trouble when we don't keep the physical under the control of the mental, which in turn should be led and directed by the spiritual. That line, "If it feels good, do it!" has got to be one of the dumbest phrases to come along in a lo-o-o-ng time.

But enough of that. You are right, of course, in saying that most of the mistakes we have made started out occurring through ignorance. But even after we learned better, we frequently continued the depredations out of greed. Think of strip mining, and the extensive deforestation. Harold, I knew Thoreau had taken a lot of soundings, but I had no idea it was as many as 75. He was quite determined on this project, wasn't he? Do you think he really did all this just to prove the old "bottomless" claimants wrong? I certainly wouldn't think he would go to this much trouble out of idle curiousity.

Barbara, I'll start answering what I can of your closing questions tomorrow, as suggested. It will be interesting seeing what everyone has to say.....Babi

Harold Arnold
May 24, 2002 - 02:55 pm
Harold do you see your pond as the center of your homestead and more important representing your heartfelt feelings for your home?


So far as my large pond is concerned I can’t answer with a resounding affirmative. I just turn on the pump when it needs replenishing. There are a number of 5-pound catfish and the last time (last fall) I took my fishing rod, I caught a 12 inch bass on the first cast. I guess my disinterest in the catfish is not due to their taste that I rate quite high; rather it is due to the effort required to skin and prepare them for the table. The Catfish Kitchen is too convenient. This assures the catfish longevity. Sometimes on winter afternoons I sit on the dam that overlooks Cottonwood Creek with my binoculars to watch buzzards hawks and other high flying birds soar over the valley in search of food.

Here is a link to My Pond In Winter

I think the small water garden pond and the gazebo are more the center of my life here. In the past their have been pretty large fajita parties here with 20 plus people and two or three grills. Stealing a bit of the punch from the late president, I sometimes bill these as a “Barbeque at the HHA ranch,”

The gazebo still is where I receive visitor’s weather permitting though the groups are usually much smaller now. Also I sometimes refer to it as my summer office and work there with a notebook computer with a telephone line to connect to the Internet. Also it is a nice spot to relax alone in the evening listening to KUT music. Here is a picture of the small pond and gazebo

I suspect that I will be pretty much out of pocket tomorrow as it is my work day at the ITC. I’ll delay my comments on the concluding chapters until Sunday.

Nellie Vrolyk
May 24, 2002 - 04:12 pm
In these chapters I see Thoreau turning outwards in his thoughts more than he turns inwards to self contemplation. Just musing along here...wouldn't thinking of the whole world as being part of yourself lead to a loss of self-identity? Somehow Thoreau does not seem like a man who would do that type of thing. I've lost my train of thought due to a lengthy phone call; so I'll see if I can pick it up tomorrow.

Are we a part of nature or are we not? If we are part of nature, then we have to admit that what we build, like our cities, is as natural as a beaver dam, or a wasp's nest, or a termite mound. And that is something we don't want to admit, do we?

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 24, 2002 - 09:28 pm
Wow Nellie you caught my imagination with your comment -
"If we are part of nature, then we have to admit that what we build, like our cities, is as natural as a beaver dam, or a wasp's nest, or a termite mound. And that is something we don't want to admit, do we?"


Never thought of it that way --

Great photos Harold - Thanks for sharing them with us - if I understand your post correctly you are saying the water garden and gazebo is a center for you - a place where you receive some sustanence - hehe sounds like the "Catfish Kitchen" is a cause for a little Darwinism in your pond.

And Harold like you, I will be out of pocket tomorrow - My College Station family is coming to Austin and we are going on up to Round Rock to see the Round Rock Express play baseball. As much as we need rain I sure hope it doesn't rain on us - they keep predicting the rain further and further into the weekend where as it was supposedly going to all happen Friday night and during the early part of the day on Saturday. We shall see what we shall see - but my family will be here and so too Sunday is when I will be doing most of my posting.

Oh and Babi I sure agree with you when you say -
"That line, "If it feels good, do it!" has got to be one of the dumbest phrases to come along in a lo-o-o-ng time.
That phrase sounds like a recipe for all sorts of dysfunctional or addictive behavior doesn't it.

LouiseJEvans
May 25, 2002 - 11:49 am
This morning on TV there was mention of coyotes in Massachusetts. And a vew days ago there was a story about a coyote in Massachusetts. I grew up there and I do not remember coyotes being a problem except ot west. Do you think Thoreau saw any near Walden Pond?

BaBi
May 25, 2002 - 03:52 pm
To me, if I have enough to pay my bills, meet my needs, with something left over that I can give away, then I have enough. If I cannot help others in need, then I do not have enough.

Of course what we 'possess' also possesses us, demanding much of our time, care and attention. I loved my old large, roomy home, but it got to be too much for me. In the end, I was glad to give it up and move into a smaller, simpler space. I have truly never understood the desire to burden oneself with even more extraneous possessions, such as furs and diamonds,and gas-guzzling showpiece cars. Then one has to live with the fear of losing them and the heavy cost of insuring them. I can watch the light flash on crystal and stroke the soft fur of my cat with equal enjoyment and much greater ease of mind.

I confess to having thought of costs in terms of time spent in earning the same amount. I recall reflecting, during a time when my income wasn't all that great, that a beauty salon I checked out wanted the equivalent of over two hours of my work time in payment for 15 minutes of theirs. Nope! Don't think so; thanks just the same.

Surely the purpose of a retreat is to find some time of peace and quiet in which to rest, reflect, and get re-centered.

It seems to me that in an urban population, one no longer needs neighbors in quite the same way we did in rural farms, towns and villages. Today all sorts of professionals and agencies are available to meet needs. And with the more crowded living conditions, privacy becomes more important. We tend to make our friends among those with similar interests, rather than with the guys next door (the ones who play their boom box past your bedtime, you know.) When I meet my neighbors we smile and say hello, perhaps chat for a minute, and enjoy the meeting. But for the most part, I don't know their names, and they don't know mine. This is a mobile home park community, and a very nice one, but I still don't know many of my neighbors after 6 years here. This may well be my fault; I moved around so much during my growing-up years that I never learned the art of getting to know new people.

There is a great deal of satisfaction in something you create yourself. Not a building, mind you; that is quite beyond my abilities. And whether building something yourself is cheaper depends a great deal on whether you know what you're doing. But just something as simple as a lovely piece of counted cross-stitch can give one a sense of accomplshment and satisfaction.

I don't think Thoreau's financial situation constitutes poverty. One may be short on funds, or even temporarily broke, but poverty is a much harsher condition. It can be grinding and demeaning, which can hardly be ennobling and beneficial to the soul. Thoreau's voluntary season of discovering how much he could do without is far from poverty, and I think he deceives himself if he thinks it is.

There was nothing in "Walden Pond" that made me want to change my life, tho' there was much that agreed with my ideas of what is important and what is not. I already lead a simple life and am more than content with it. There are things I would do if I had more money, but none of them would make much change in the way I live or the things I enjoy.

I said a lot here, but remember, you asked! ...Babi

Harold Arnold
May 25, 2002 - 07:37 pm
Louise, I am confident Thoreau never heard the cry of Coyotes when He lived at Walden. You are right when you say the coyote was native to the west and particularly the southwest. It has only been during the past half-century and particularly the last 25 years that its range has expanded so dramatically. I am not surprised to hear it has reached Massachusetts as I heard previous report of it being nearby and also in New York State.

I was surprised Thoreau did not mention the larger timber wolf as a resident in Walden woods during the time he lived there. Apparently civilization had already drove this animal from the area

I often hear Coyotes at night here in South Texas, particularly in the winter. At times there might be three or four hunting packs reporting their position as they scour for food. I enjoy the sound.

Malryn (Mal)
May 25, 2002 - 08:07 pm
One of the poets I publish in the m.e.stubbs poetry journal wrote a poem about coyotes in the woods beyond his house at the Cape. I was astonished, since there certainly weren't any there when I was growing up, nor were there any in the early 80's when I had lived in Massachusetts again for a few years.

Mal

Nellie Vrolyk
May 26, 2002 - 04:40 pm
I'm thinking about the questions. Reading Walden is not going to change my life -I live as simply as I can for the situation I am in -sharing a house with an unmarried brother, a mentally challenged younger sister, and my two elderly parents (who are in better shape than me).

My Walden is in my head. I'm very good at shutting external things out and being peacefully inside myself.

More thoughts later on...

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 26, 2002 - 10:42 pm
Had a great visit that lasted much longer than we planned - those three boys are so close in age and they look so wonderful together now. The twins, who look nothing alike are 12 and Chris is 13 and actually now shorter by a bit than both the twins. They are at that age where one minute they are all boy and the next still children wanting and needing their parents. They are able to roam quite far now - Cooper received a nice set of walkie talkies for his birthday and so they can check in with their parents as they wandered all over the baseball stadium - they have this huge play area that includes not only a sort of fun house but a climbing wall, basketball courts and other playground equipment - with the way the stadium is policed it is probably the safest place for little kids than their own neighborhoods.

And neighborhoods reminded me of the concept of a village. Here in Austin it is easy to conceive of an area of town as a village because of all the very active, vocal and political savvy neighborhood associations. I know our village through the neighborhood association has stopped a large mega-grocery store from locating in the neighborhood and we have kept the city from installing speed bumps that forces cars to slow down to 10 - 15 miles an hour to cross. We felt the bumps also slows down emergency vehicles and decided to bring extra effort into keeping speed, even on our busier through street, to a max. of 30 miles an hour. Took an extra police patrol that lasted about a week and than once a week for a few months till now after 2 years it is simply a habit that no one drives over about 35 - the extra police service not only paid for itself with speeding tickets but was cheaper for the city than installing the speed bumps.

We have our big neighborhood association meeting each September and we put on a neighborhood 4th of July parade with kids decorating bicycles and wagons and dogs - great fun - everyone joins in.

I notice those families I have helped buy a house over the years - if they move into a cul-de-sac there is a great camaraderie that is stronger - they all decorate often with a common theme for Christmas and Halloween and the kids all use the cul-de-sac as their playground with the adults knowing to inch in with their vehicles. They not only all know one another but take turns with equipment, minding kids - you name it.

I also notice those families living in the older parts of town all know each other up and down the street - where as this is not so in the newer neighborhoods where most of the families are not from Austin. I'm remembering 36 years ago when we moved into this house, it was a new area of town but it seemed within a year we all had had a gathering of one kind or another to meet our neighbors and ever since folks on the next block have had a Memorial Day gathering where we all bring our potluck and picnic chairs and take over part of the street as well as the back and front yard. There is about 5 streets of families that join this annual gathering.

Mostly everyone is a professional and does not have the time for regular neighborly chit chatting but it is nice to be able to nod to each other when passing in our cars and say hello when we meet at the grocery and best of all we know if there is ever an emergency a neighbor will help.

the neighbor children grow and while in school stop by with whatever the school sales are that year and there are always older children who will watch the house, take out the garbage and bring in the mail while you are out-of-town. Recently what brought us together was collecting for the irradication of Oak Wilt that had invaded up the street. We had some folks from A&M tell us what to do and all the trees in this 5 block area were treated. (Oak Wilt attacks the Live Oaks traveling from the root of one tree to the next and within months the entire tree is dead. They think it starts with a certain beatle that gets into a tree wound so we know only to trim our trees in winter)

I realize I said "our" trees and that is one of those inherited things that we each have custody for the care of - I have been growing tired of the care of this house and yet the area is so great - trying to find another area that I would enjoy as much is the hard part of scaling back. I also have many "things" that I would hate not to have surrounding me and so where I do not need as much room as I have I still want room to sew, embroider, knit, make lace, paint, print, screen print, cover boxes, play the piano, have at least a small garden and of course all my books and books and books. I still want to try my hand at making paper and binding a book. I love to cook and bake and have folks over - and yet, I would like to be able to have a small house as a base and do more hiking and out-of-door activities - oh me - Thoreau simplifying sounds great till I think of giving up family "things" that I have loved caring for and can remember the family member as they cared for the "thing," and the stuff that I like to play with like hoops and easels and shovels and the piano and the books.

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 27, 2002 - 12:14 am
All the talk of Coyotes and of course I had to find out what I could about what is going on - Looks like Harold's timing on the spread of the coyote is right on according to the information I could find. And Louise you and Mal are both from Massachusetts - have you e-mailed to each other any shared childhood memories?

Ok here is the skinny on Coyotes spreading into cities and especially into Massachusetts --
Coyotes thrive on the habitat disturbances created by humans. In fact, the logging that was done in British Columbia's Fraser Valley created open farmlands and fields which the coyote needs to survive. It wasn't until the 1930's, after the area had been logged, that the coyote first appeared in the Fraser Valley. By 1980, Coyotes had moved into Stanley Park in Vancouver.

a wildlife biologist said...that the (Reno) region’s rapid population growth is responsible for drawing more of the wily canines. And they are larger and healthier than in other places because they get more food here and encounter fewer predators.

Coyotes originally moved into the central and western regions of Massachusetts in the 1950s, and they have been in the Eastern sections and Cape Cod since the 1970s. This canid species is now well established statewide. Coyotes are often seen individually, in pairs, or in small groups. The area a coyote uses may vary from 4 to 30 square miles.

Massachusetts - For all practical purposes, coyotes are no longer being hunted or trapped due to politics Yet we have already had one child attacked in less than two years after the trap ban passed. The article also used inflammatory writing with words like "slaughter, killing, exterminated." Normally one exterminates a species not a specific number of animals. The statement, "A powerful minority of Americans want coyotes dead, and so the slaughter will continue" while true fails to explain to the reader that
A. the number of ranchers and farmers have been declining in the U.S. for decades.
B. these ranchers lose money every time a coyote kills one of their animals.
By insinuating this undemocratic principle of minority rule, Mr. Finkel failed to adequately explain unfair financial burden ranchers would bear just because a bunch of city folk don't like coyotes to be controlled. Sounds to me like the oppressive majority. - Safari Club International - Wildlife Management is Beneficial and Necessary

Coyotes came to Massachusetts from Northern New England approximately 25 years ago. Although the coyote population cannot be tracked because of state legislation, it estimated that there are as many as 4,000 coyotes breeding in the state. Coyotes are being blamed for the disappearance of cats across Massachusetts.

Until the colonial settlement of North America by Europeans in the 18th and 19th centuries, coyotes were confined to the great plains of this continent...Although fur trappers in the 1700s reported a small "bush wolf" as far east as Massachusetts, coyotes were unable to compete with gray wolves (Canis lupus), which dominated the rich hunting grounds in the eastern half of North America. Yet, like so many of the large predators of the east (cougars, black bears, and bobcats), the gray wolf was hunted, trapped, and poisoned to near extinction. By the middle of the 19th century, the lack of competition from wolves allowed the coyote to expand its range and exploit the rich environments east of the Mississippi.

Looks like global warming may be another reason for the spread of wildlife into our cities
"During dry conditions our arroyos and canals become superhighways for wildlife," Aikens said. "You have coyotes sighted in downtown Phoenix and young mountain lions who are being kicked loose into the Prescott area to establish their own territory."

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 27, 2002 - 01:21 am
Babi you also like to do counted cross stitch - I haven't done much in several years now but I did enjoy my fling - the piece that was especially great was a runner that I also hemstitched and my daughter-in-law uses it now every year at Thanksgiving. Babi Do you have room for a small garden around your home?

Nellie I'm thinking there is both sides of the coin living with family. Lack of privacy and independence but also the companionship that those living alone, we sometimes miss. Nothing perfect is there -- Now Nellie I know you have a lovely garden - surrounded by a picket fence -- do you ever see wild animals near your garden or in the area where you live?

Babi you are one up on me - I used to think about buying or not because I would think I could make it as well or better for less money but now, especially since I am self-supporting I think only, if I have enough money or not to pay my bills but, never think if I should or not buy something based on how many hours I need to work in order to pay for it.

Maybe some of that has to do with my work -- pay scale by the hour just doesn't compute - sometime we work so long with someone that we only get about $1 and hour and a few times we earn as much as $100 an hour. At the end of the year it computes but even then the economy has such an affect on our income - some years we do 30 or more transactions and than other years we are lucky to do 10. Also have you noticed as we grow older there is less and less we need to buy -- I still have and wear clothes, mostly winter clothes, that I bought back in the early 80s - shoes and summer things I have to replace regularly. Summer things because working in our heat they are washed and washed or in the dry cleaners so often they just about last a season.

And Babi I agree with you about the issues of poverty. Not just the meanness of financial poverty but what he does not address or, for that matter is he even conscious of is a poverty of education and also, a poverty of knowing, having an identity, that is tied to being capable of being self-sufficient.

The woodsmen he befriended had a knowing, an identity that without much education he could be self-sufficient where as, especially the Irish family, was not only poor but they lacked the education to even understand how they could make life comfortable without money. He seemed to ridicule them rather than realize he was fortunate to have had the education he enjoyed.

I think that is true today - some folks have money, lots of it but lack an education in how to live with that kind of money - I guess it goes back to the money owning you and many folks that have money do not want to take on the custady that becomes visable when they make a purchase - that a purchase affects, like a pebble in a pond what is considered valuable.

I am still shocked after all these years at the cookie cutter non-discript million dollar homes that to me in that price range ought to be architectual statements. I understand there is a game to play that is driven by the show of money and that game is what Thoreau railed at among the Villagers - the game players certainly can bring great things to a community as the various speakers and so forth that Thoreau enjoyed in the Village - but so much of the choices of those in the upper middle income bracket seems to glorify suburbia. This I put down to being rich for having money but not educated in other then that which makes the money.

Malryn (Mal)
May 27, 2002 - 08:30 am
Thoreau said, "Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth", and that's fine, but what was his truth was not necessarily the same truth of others of his time. He chose to live in the Walden Pond woods for a very brief period of time in much the same way that the slaves whom he mentioned lived. That was his choice and part of his truth. Others in Concord lived in houses that were comfortable for their day. That was their truth and what they believed in.

Thoreau didn't know what living in poverty is. There's nothing good or enriching about poverty. I've been at both ends of the scale in my lifetime, and I know. He appears to condemn the way those he considers rich spend their money. A lot of people do. I believe that if someone has worked hard for his or her money, or even inherited it, there's every good reason why he or she should enjoy what comes with having money.

Walden meant something different to me when I first read it from what it did this time around. Even so, at no time when I read this book was I compelled to change my life because of anything Thoreau said. It's an interesting book by an unusual little man who tried to stand outside society. That is something I'm afraid no one can do, not even Henry David Thoreau.

Mal

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 27, 2002 - 12:41 pm
Mal you also picked up on his attitude about those both with and without money and his non-accepting way of thinking about both economic groups.

I did enjoy his musings about the out-of-doors during his private walks and while he did his chores. I have often observed nature at night while most others are asleep and I've seen many a sun rise - some have been dramatic - the first glimmer of light and than the sun at first light seems to reflect on the windows in the front of my house like crimson lakes - I've observed first light before it touches the sky while reflected as a copper glow high on a mountain - I love watching all this and can easliy see it as a metaphore to other issues I have within me but I have never had a spiritual revelation while observing nature. My revelations seem to come as a result of reading something that strikes a chord that takes me into myself. With the many poems, often filled with angst, written by poets who live in cities I really can't say that city life is more cacooning preventing cityfolk from becoming more intellectually fulfilled and spiritually aware. Nature and open land may be mind clearing but I don't see it as necessarily the only fuel for intellectual or spiritual persuit.

Now naming various trees, flowers, birds and animals - I can name most in my area but that was my father's skill - we could take a hike and he knew the name of every flower and tree regardless if it was dead of winter and everything was leafless - he even knew flowers by their dead stalks - I never remember him showing an interest in birds or animals where as for years I was interested in knowing the song and names of birds. Since we are on a flight path we do get flocks of unusual birds landing in the trees or backyard on their way north or south.

I haven't given symbolic meaning to the sounds and behavior of animals and birds but reading Walden has given me a push to do just that - the practice reminds me of the many storytellers who give animals the personalities of humans or the many hunting and woodsmen stories that can be so much fun. Certainly telling a metaphoric tale using animals and birds is a less threatening way of putting out a message.

Nellie Vrolyk
May 27, 2002 - 06:25 pm
Barbara, the only wildlife I have seen close to my yard is a grey hare, lots of squirrels, and many species of birds. And once there were three baby fawns in the backyard, but they wore harnesses and were on a leash -my youngest brother was raising orphaned fawns that were found out in the wild after their mother was killed by poachers; and he took them everywhere.

We are about a thirty minute walk from the river valley through which flows the North Saskatchewan River and there one can see beavers -so many that they are considered pests, muskrat, deer, moose, elk, skunks, porcupines, chipmunks, coyotes, and bears and cougars have also been seen there.

And a 45 minute or less drive away to the east of the city there is Elk Island National Park, where North American bison, moose, elk, bear, deer, and many other animals roam free, and a hike down any of the trails can mean an often unexpected meeting with anyone of them. People who spend a lot of time in the park like my brother Wil and his wife become quite adept at inching past bison that block the trail by standing or lying in the middle of it. They have also become good sprinters when chased by irate female moose with young. I've only done the inch past the bison thing once; there was no choice because the way back dead-ended at the lakeshore and we had to get by him to get back to our car; and no amount of shouting at arm waving got the beast to move. We have also been picnicking there and found ourselves in the midst of a whole herd of the bison -an experience to remember.

I think that is enough for now...

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 27, 2002 - 08:53 pm
Oh Nellie how fabulous it all sounds - you sound like you have Walden out your back door - what a great location to live in if you enjoy the out-of-doors.

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 27, 2002 - 09:52 pm
This last chapter has many of his more known quotes - this thought was a new bit of information for me --

"Symmes hole" Captain John Symmes declared in 1818 that the earth was hollow and open at both poles.

I also have another understanding -- Thoreau is saying that nothing lasts and to keep curious may mean to change and move on. That every move could be a temporary opportunity to learn something - hmmm this is prompting some new thoughts for me.

Harold Arnold
May 29, 2002 - 11:25 am
I want to say that I have really enjoyed this discussion. This time around I really got a lot out of my reading of “Walden.” Previously I had not enjoyed it so much. I think this positive remembrance of this discussion is due to this group of participants and the enthusiasm all exhibited and particularly to Barbara’s leadership in taking us through a real Walden experience.

As I have said before previously my impression of Thoreau and his writings has been through his three Maine Woods camping stories the first of which was written during the time he was living at Walden. He took a two week vacation in September of 1846 to camp in the Maine woods and climb mount Ktaadn. There are two other stories describing other trips to Maine during the 1850’s I want to recommend these stories that are available in paperback. (The Maine Woods (Penguin Nature Library). I was surprised to find that it is not in the B & N catalog, but it is in the principal on-line competitor at a quite modest price. In any case this is a good read for anyone interested in a bit more of Thoreau.

And I think also, I will slip in a reading of A Week On The Concord and Merrimack Rivers. Click the link for this title from B & N.

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 29, 2002 - 01:35 pm
Aha and so you too Harold want to read another of Thoreau's books - the one I am curious about is Walking and although I have found it on the internet this discussion made me aware that If I read a book on the net I miss much that I don't miss while reading in paper form.

Glad you were among us Harold and thanks for sharing your photos of your own Pond - You helped make this one of the more satisfying reads. And thanks for the kind words. We did well or as we say here in Texas - 'Y'all did gooood'

BaBi
May 29, 2002 - 02:12 pm
I, too, got much more out of Thoreau this time around, which is a good reason right there for these book discussions. I had to stick with it, and not wander off to other books for weeks at a time. My thanks to all posters; you added greatly to my enjoyment of the book. ...Babi

Nellie Vrolyk
May 29, 2002 - 03:45 pm
Barbara, I have enjoyed the discussion and the book. I am going to reread it at a slower pace since I rushed through it this first time.

My youngest brother has a little cabin in the woods he built himself where he goes when all of modern life gets to be too much for him and he will spend a weekend to as long as a couple of months at a time there.

I think the one thing I learned from Walden is that if I truly want time and space to think the deep thoughts then I need to be totally alone with nature. But only for a while.

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 30, 2002 - 01:49 am
Babi I didn't realize this was a second read for you - I sure know what that wondering off is like - golly it is so easy to start another book while you have several place marked - It is like that ear of corn that several birds and animals had at - only it is the other way around having one of us as if we are the ear of corn and several books going and scattered all over the house.

Nellie this also was my first read of Thoreau - there are a few chapters that I would like to re-visit but others for me one read was enough. I guess by discussing each chapter as we did I felt I got a bit more than I do reading on my own. I am anxious to read a bit more of what Thoreau wrote and as I have shared Walking is next on my list.

Now what is this - your brother has a cabin in the woods - Nellie how absolutley wonderful that sounds. Have you visited the cabin? You have set my fantasy going along with the thought of that snug fire on a cold winter night as a bedtime relaxing fantasy. This time of year thinking on anything that includes cold will help - so far my AC bill has not upset my budget but it will, it always does.

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 30, 2002 - 09:59 pm
These focus questions are printed out here so we have them for future reference - These were the only focus question other than those in the current heading that we used while discussing Walden
Chapter 14

Chapter 15

Chapter 16

Barbara St. Aubrey
May 30, 2002 - 10:02 pm
Bye Y'all - I had a great time and you were all wonderful during this discussion - I learned so much more than had I finally read Walden on my own - THANKS!

Malryn (Mal)
May 31, 2002 - 09:07 am
The June-July-August issue of the m.e.stubbs poetry journal is on the web. Writers Exchange WREX writers and guest contributors whose poetry appears in this issue, along with poems by many other poets, are John T. Baker, Mary Jane Rohr, ET (Bubble), Dr. Robert Bancker Iadeluca, Annafair and Marie DiMauro Fredrickson (Moxie). I am pleased to announce that two poems by Barbara St. Aubrey are in this issue. This is a large and varied collection of poetry, which I know you will enjoy.

Nellie Vrolyk
May 31, 2002 - 05:48 pm
Barbara, no I haven't been to my brother's cabin; no one in the family has. He tells us it is too far away from a road or trail for us to be able to make the trip there. I just think he wants to be sure that we don't drop in on him.

Marjorie
June 1, 2002 - 07:52 am
This discussion is being copied to the Archives. Thank you all for your participation.