---Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant ~ Volume V, Part 2 ~ Nonfiction
jane
February 4, 2007 - 10:42 am
  
"I want to know what were the steps by which man passed from barbarism to civilization." (Voltaire)

What are our origins? Where are we now? Where are we headed? Share your thoughts with us!
Volume Five (The Renaissance)

"Four elements constitute Civilization -- economic provision, political organization, moral traditions, and the pursuit of knowledge and the arts. "

"I shall proceed as rapidly as time and circumstances will permit, hoping that a few of my contemporaries will care to grow old with me while learning. "

"These volumes may help some of our children to understand and enjoy the infinite riches of their inheritance."

"Civilization begins where chaos and insecurity ends."


MILAN

Piedmont and Liguria
Pavia
The Visconti
The Sforzias
Letters
Art

In this volume the term "Renaissance" refers only to Italy. Will Durant studies the growth of industry, the rise of banking families like the Medici, the conflicts of labor and capital and considers the reasons why Italy was the first nation, and Florence the first city in Italy, to feel the awakening of the modern mind. He follows the cultural flowering from Florence to Milan, Mantua, Ferrata, Verona and Venice, Padua and Parma, Bologna, Rimini, Urbino, Perugia, Siena, and Naples.

In each city of Italy we witness a colorful pageant of princes, queeens, dukes, or doges -- of poets, historians, scientists, and philosophers -- of painters, sculptors, engravers, illuminators, potters, and architects -- of industry, education, manners, morals, crime, and dress -- of women and love and marriage -- of epidemics, famines, earthquakes, and death.

Dr. Durant draws vivid vignettes -- of Petrarch, Boccaccio, Cosimo de' Medici, Fra Angelico, Donatello, Beatrice and Isabella d'Este, Leonardo da Vinci, Piero della Francesca, Signorelli, Perugino, Giovanni Bellini, Giorgione, Aldus Manutius, Correggio, Alexander VI, Caesar and Lucrezia Borgia, Julius II, Leo X, Raphael, and Michelangelo.

The Renaissance, by recalling classic culture, ended the thousand year rule of the Oriental mind in Europe.

This volume, then, is about YOU. Join our group daily and listen to what Durant and the rest of us are saying. Better yet, share with us your opinions.

Your Discussion Leader:Robby Iadeluca

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jane
February 4, 2007 - 11:44 am
Remember to subscribe.

Traude S
February 4, 2007 - 01:22 pm
JANE, thank you for our fresh slate.

Regarding Poggio, the Catholic Encyclopedia's entry is a very long one. Poggio's "insolence" and irreverent jesting abour clergy or religious subjects were apparently outweighed by his more important scholarly work.

winsum
February 4, 2007 - 02:58 pm
here history and birthplace maps of italy. . . less confusing than most.

claire

winsum
February 4, 2007 - 03:08 pm
http://www.mega.it/eng/egui/monu/bdd.htm

robert b. iadeluca
February 4, 2007 - 03:29 pm
Volume V began Nov. 27th, just over two months ago and already over 1000 postings. As usual, SofC is a fast moving discussion group.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 4, 2007 - 03:40 pm
"Of course the great work of revival had been inaugurated by the translators in the twelfth and thirteenth centuries and by Arabic commentators and by Petrarch and Boccaccio.

"It had been continued by scholars and collectors like Salutati, Traversari, Bruni, and Valla before Cosimo. It was carried forward independently of him by Niccoli, Poggio, Filelfo, King Alfonso the Magnanimous of Naples and a hundred other contemporaries of Cosimo, even by his exiled rival, Paila Strozzi.

"But if we embrace in our judgment not only Cosimo Pater patriae, but his descendants Lorenzo the Magnificent, Leo X, and Clement VII, we may admit that in the patronage of learning and art the Medici have never been equaled by any other family in the known history of mankind."

robert b. iadeluca
February 4, 2007 - 03:41 pm
Another approach to the RENAISSANCE.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 4, 2007 - 03:43 pm
Who was TRAVERSARI?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 4, 2007 - 03:46 pm
Who was PALLA STROZZI?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 4, 2007 - 03:47 pm
The Humanists

robert b. iadeluca
February 4, 2007 - 03:54 pm
"It was under the Medici, or in their day, that the humanists captivated the mind of Italy, turned it from religion to philosophy, from heaven to earth, and revealed to an astonished generation the riches of pagan thought and art.

"These men mad about scholarship received, as early as Ariosto, the name of umanisti because they called the study or classic culture umanita -- the 'humanities' -- of literae humaniores -- not 'more humane' but more human letters.

"The proper study of mankind was now to be man, in all the potential strength and beauty of his body, in all the joy and pain of his senses and feelings, in all the frail majesty of his reason, and in these as abundantly and perfectly revealed in the literature and art of ancient Greece and Rome.

"This was humanism."

Read the two paragraphs between the illustrations in the Heading above.

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
February 4, 2007 - 05:07 pm
Thank you for wonderful links, I am still trying to see them all one by one. Are we getting to be more civilized Robby?

robert b. iadeluca
February 4, 2007 - 05:25 pm
I am. I don't know about you folks.

Robby

bluebird24
February 4, 2007 - 06:17 pm
I love the cupola:) Justin you are welcome:) Found medici house with google. I am learning a lot here. I like Fra Lippo forget spelling Gozzolli Three Wise Men is beautiful!

Justin
February 4, 2007 - 10:04 pm
Robby: Please slow down. We have taken months to wade through the political side of the Renaissance and now in one fell swoop you have given us enough art to last for weeks but it comes all at once.I am still back at the Medici Palace.

Justin
February 4, 2007 - 11:06 pm
Donatello is a scultor worthy of our time. In my judgement he exceeds Michelangelo Buonaroti as a sculptor in many respects.

His predecessors in sculpture were those of the Medieval period who filled niches of cathedrals in France, England, and Germany. They are lifeless figures that exist in an architectural frame. Many are placed high on the facades and are distorted when viewed from the ground.

Mal, if you will bring up Donatello's St. Mark,(Or San Michele) we will be able to see that this figure is in the tradition of the Greeks.When last we left them they were struggling with the concept of contra-posto. They recognized that the body was a flexible structure and that drapes moved with the body as it flexed. The body is almost always in motion of some kind and that be depicted. That issue disappeared in Medieval times and Donatello brought it back to the fore.

He depicted motion in the human figure. We can see it clearly in the early St. Mark. He is about to move out of the niche at Or San Michele. The position of his toga and the weight shift of his body suggest this to us.

The Saint Mark of Donatello is an expression of all that is the Renaissance. It is a rebirth of classicism.

There is more to see and experience in Donatello and if Mal will bring up a few more pieces I will talk about them as well. The Magdellan is very dramatic. The Bargello David is one to make a predator wild and the Zuccone or Pumpkin head is technically, a major innovation. The Zuconne is in the prior 1000 but is a nuisance to flip back and forth. Better to have it handy where we can get at it easily. I'm going to bed.

Bubble
February 5, 2007 - 02:50 am
"At the age of fourteen Traversari entered the Camaldulian Order in the monastery of Santa Maria degli Angeli, and rapidly became a leading theologian and Hellenist.

They must have been very precocious in those times. Or maybe childhood is getting longer and more spoiled these days. One does not expect kids to help at ealy age in the family budget.

There is so much to read and absorb with all those links, I cannot keep up!

Bubble
February 5, 2007 - 02:54 am
http://artchive.com/artchive/D/donatello/donatello_saint_mark.jpg.html

click on "image viewer

Bubble
February 5, 2007 - 03:04 am
http://gallery.euroweb.hu/html/d/donatell/3_late/3magda_1.html

http://witcombe.sbc.edu/earlyrenaissance/donatello-david/

http://keptar.demasz.hu/arthp/html/d/donatell/1_early/duomo/8habak_1.htm

http://arthist.cla.umn.edu/aict/html/renbrq/itrensc.html

Click twice on more on the pictures to get a bigger size

Mallylee
February 5, 2007 - 03:30 am
Robby#7

The pursuit of wealth and the opportunity for traders and bankers to interact with the world beyond their town walls created an atmosphere more open to new ideas and to innovation, experimentation, and enterprise in all aspects of life.

(from the urbanisation section about halfway down in Robby's link).

I am wondering if these causes will now also stimulate humans to manage the natural environment so that we dont eat ourselves out of house and home.

The article is a lucid and balanced overview of Renaissance. I particularly like the point the author makes that Renaissance was a gradual process with roots in what we think of as medieval times.

Bubble
February 5, 2007 - 04:14 am
I wish you were right Mallylee about "stimulate humans to manage the natural environment", but unfortunately I see more and more greed all around, a thirst of possessing more and more, be it in small objects or in more important matters. Were to put values? They don't teach that anymore.

robert b. iadeluca
February 5, 2007 - 06:15 am
I base the speed at which I post Durant's comments on --

The number of posts
The number of people posting (sometimes it might be six posts made by only one person)
Whether the remarks are related to Durant's comments.

As I have said so many times over these years that, you, the participants, are the engine. I have to keep in mind that there are many participants in this discussion, not just two or three and that "Civilization" involves all those items listed in the Heading.

Experience has shown that this discussion requires checking in at least once daily. Those participants who drop in only every 2-3 days often find a topic they wish they had commented on earlier. I cannot pause for this but must move on.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 5, 2007 - 06:34 am
"Nearly all the Latin, and many of the Greek classics now extant were known to medieval scholars here and there. The thirteenth century was acquaintd with the major pagan philosophers.

"But that century had almost ignored Greek poetry. Many ancient worthies now honored by us lay neglected in monastic or cathedral libraries. It was mostly in such forgotten corners that Petrach and his successors found the 'lost' classics. He called them 'Gentle prisoners held in captivity by barbarous jailers.'

"Boccaccio, visiting Monte Cassino, was shocked to find previous manuscripts rotting in dust, or mutilated to make psalters or amulets. Poggio, visiting the Swiss monastry of St. Gall while attending the Council of Constance, found the Institutiones of Quintilian in a foul dark dungeon. and felt, as he reclaimed the rolls, that the old pedagogue was stretching out his hands, begging to be saved from the 'barbarians.'

"By that name the culture-conscious Italians, like the ancient Greeks and Romans, called their virile conquerors beyond the Alps. Poggio alone, undeterred by winter's cold or snow, exhumed from such tombs the texts of Lucretius, Columella, Frontinus, Vitruvius, Valerius Flaccus, Tertullian, Plautus, Petronius, Ammianus Marcellinus, and several major speeches of Cicero.

"Coluccio Salutati unearthed Cicero'slletters ad familiares at Vercelli. Gherdo Landriani found Cicero's treatises on rhetoric in an old chest at Lodi.

"Ambrogio Traversari rescued Cornelius Nepos from oblivion in Padua. The Agricola, Germanis, and Dialogi of Tacitus were discovered in Germany.

"The first six books of Tacitus Annales and a full manuscript of the younger Plinys letters were recovered from the lonastry of Corvey and became a prize possession of Leo X."

Do you think that some day thousands of years from now that someone will unearth our Senior Net discussion here?

Robby

BaBi
February 5, 2007 - 06:55 am
Childhood was much shorter, BUBBLE. Life was much shorter. Girls were married as early as fourteen; boys were considered young men. Childhood is longer now, but think how much more there is to learn!

Claire, I agree Dontello was a magnificent scultor. I just found his depiction of Mary far different than the norm of the day. She looked like an ancient hag. We don't know what Mary really looked like, but we do know she had to have been younger than she was portrayed there.

Babi

Éloïse De Pelteau
February 5, 2007 - 07:24 am
What would the world be like, today, if Italy never existed?...There'd be no Renaissance

Adapted from a lecture to the Italian Club at St. John's University. Prof. Gaetano Cipolla is a frequent lecturer to Italian Clubs in the United States.

And we would not have Robby either!!!!

I am stuck with a cold this week and the temperature outside is ZERO F. so I have more time for S of C.

Rich7
February 5, 2007 - 07:46 am
There would be no pizza!

Rich

Bubble
February 5, 2007 - 07:51 am
"Do you think that some day thousands of years from now that someone will unearth our Senior Net discussion here?"

I doubt the computers of then would be able to decipher SN discussions. Look at those records kept on big floppies of the late 50s and 60s. They are worthless now.

With books and manuscripts, with scrolls, one needed no other means but knowledge of the language to be able to understand them. They just had to be stored properly to survive, like in those jars found in desert caves.

Edit; Rich, but there would still be pasta, from Chinese origin.

Rich7
February 5, 2007 - 08:01 am
But, Bubble, it took a Venetian trader (Marco Polo) to recognize its gustatory value and introduce it to the West.

Rich

Rich7
February 5, 2007 - 08:07 am
Just found this reference in the Wikipedia Encyclopedia.

"Legend has it that Marco Polo introduced to Italy some products from China, including ice cream, the piñata and pasta, especially spaghetti. However these legends are not grounded in fact, and pasta on the Italian peninsula can be traced back to 400 BC, through decorations found on an Etruscan tomb."

Looks like the Italians may have invented pasta after all. (Or, at least, invented it independent of the Chinese.)

Rich

mabel1015j
February 5, 2007 - 11:25 am
Eloise - what a fun link and if we did the same premise for France wouldn't we find that the word "renaissance" comes to us because of France's rise over the next couple centuries as the power house of culture and politics - that we'll no doubt be talking about NEXT year here on SofC ...tic....

We could also add to the list, as we are reading about in The Best Yr of Their Lives, we would not have Brumidi's lovely paintings in our nation's capitol. Altho at the time "the United States Arts Commission issued a report that complained about the art of 'an effete and decayed race, which in no way represents us' on the walls of the Capitol." Is that where Spiro Agnew learned the word "effete"?.......jean

Traude S
February 5, 2007 - 12:45 pm
"Brunellesco" surprised me, for I've never heard him referred to as anything other than Brunelleschi.

The Strozzi family was mentioned earlier on the enumeration of ten important Florentine families, in addition to the Medicis. Durant depends on (and revels in) lists of all sorts, often of last names only, except for King Alfonso the Magnanimous of Naples, and one feels compelled to check them all out individually for their connection to the others named.

The Wikipedia linked to Palla Strozzi lists different dates for his death. At the top behind his name = 1372-1472. Further down we read "He died in 1462."
Convenience in electronic links: of course. Accuracy in dates and spelling: alas, not consistently.

Justin
February 5, 2007 - 03:14 pm
Thank you Bubble for the image of St. Mark. At the base of the sculpture is a small carving of a lion with wings. That is the evangelical symbol for St. Mark. You may recall from our visit at Venice where he was called the Lion of St. Mark.

This wonderful study in motion may be more appreciated if we had a comparison. The Medieval period in France has several we can use for comparison. At Chartre Cathedral there is a St. Theodore that may help to make things clearer. In the St. Mark, the body moves and the drapery moves with it, hanging and folding naturally from and around bodily points of support. In the Saint Theodore, the drapes fall straight even though one foot has turned sharply to the right.

Justin
February 5, 2007 - 03:57 pm
Donatello's Zucone is an interesting figure. It is one of the prophets removed from a niche high above on the Campanile at the Duomo in Florence. He is a bald headed prophet. At ground level one looking at him will see that the body leans forward and the head bends forward at the neck giving him a peculiar appearance. The reason for that posture is that Donatello adjusted the figure to be seen from below. If it were looking straight out from the niche one would see from below only the jut of his chin. The drapes are similarly adjusted to be seen from below rather than at eye level and are thus awkwardly presented with the folds deeply undercut.

The work was done about mid-career and reflects the same kind of realism one finds in the St. Mark. There is no idealism in these figures. (There were five prophets.) The face is bony, lined and taut. There is too much in the face for a high niche. The eyes appear to glare, the nostrils flare. The mouth is agape in wonder. None of this could be seen high above the pavement. Up close the reality of the work is very apparent.

robert b. iadeluca
February 5, 2007 - 04:11 pm
"In the half century before the Turks took Constantinople a dozen humanists studied or traveled in Greece.

"One of them, Giovanni Aurispa, brought back to Italy 238 manuscripts, including the plays of Aeschylus and Sophocles. Another, Francesco Filelfo, salvaged from Constantinople texts of Herodotus, Thucydides, Polybius, Demosthenes, Aeschines, and Aristotle and seven dramas of Euripides.

"When such literary explorers returned to Italy with their finds they were welcomed like victorious generals and princes and prelates paid well for a share of the spoils. The fall of Constantinople resulted in the loss of many classics previously mentioned by Byzantine writers as in the libraries of that city.

"Nevertheless thousands of volumes were saved and most of them came to Italy. To this day the vest manuscripts of Greek classics are in Italy. For three centuries from Petrarch to Tasso, men collected manuscripts with philatelic passion. Niccolo de' Niccoli spent more than he had in this pursuit.

"Anceolo de Ochis was ready to sacrifice his home, his wife, his life to add to his library. Poggio suffered when he saw money being spent on anything else than books."

How much are you willing to sacrifice for books?

Robby

Justin
February 5, 2007 - 04:13 pm
Bubble's # 19 gives us the Bargello David to examine. Donatello's knowledge of the anatomy of a boy is truly superior. The boy, David is not big and well muscled. He is soft, and slightly feminine as a boy his age might be. The work is bronze and in that form one can feel the softness of his skin. He wears a shepard's hat with a laurel. His arms are not the arms of a sword wielder and a warrior but a shepard who carries a slingshot. The sword he exhibits is not his but that of Goliath which he used to cut off his head. The figure is reminiscent of Judith and Holofernes. He is a gentle boy who is used to protecting his flock. Donatello's typical reality is quite evident.

robert b. iadeluca
February 5, 2007 - 04:13 pm
Here are all the DIFFERENT KINDS OF HUMANISM.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 5, 2007 - 04:20 pm
More about GIOVANNI AURISPA who was accused of "despoiling Constantinople of books."

Robby

Justin
February 5, 2007 - 04:27 pm
Bubble's 19. links to Zucone in the third position. In the fourth position link one may find a series of small images. One of these images is that of St. John the Evangelist. Click on it and it will grow in size.

Donatello's St. John The Evangelist is a seated figure with the body and its drapes in league. It is one more worthy expression of reality and of the Renaissance. The these pieces are the Renaissance in art. Later one Michelangelo will use this work of St. John as a model for his own great work on the seated Moses with Horns.

Justin
February 5, 2007 - 05:09 pm
Donatello worked with Ghiberti for a while in his early career.It was Ghiberti who did the Baptistry doors at the Duomo in bronze relief panels. Later, Donatello did a bronze relief for the Baptistry at Sienna. It is fastened to the font.

The relief deals with a group of people rather than single persons. One has the problem of relating people to one another in a scene. The piece in Sienna is a Herod scene. The dance of seven veils is over. Herod is presented with the head of John the Baptist on a platter. Children pull back in horror. Salome continues to dance while gesturing to the king that the salver contains the bloody head.

John had been arested for political reasons. He was of the house of David and Herod was a Hasmonean. He felt threatened by John's rabble rousing but not enough to kill him. Salome was a woman scorned. Much like Potiphar. The scene is quite real and again it is Renaissance.

Justin
February 5, 2007 - 05:30 pm
Travasari is a figure of the Renaissance within the Church. He attempted to heal the wounds of the Great Schism between East and West thus bringing Greece back to the Roman fold. It failed but he tried. He also was a student of classical litrature and shared his thought and studies with Cosimo De Medici.

Here we have a leading priest,not seeing the effect of the Greek revival on the power of the church, encouraging the movement toward revival.It's reminiscent of the Bridge on the River Quai.

Justin
February 5, 2007 - 06:04 pm
Brunelleschi we dealt with at some length when we covered the Duomo's Dome. However, there are so many other things he was involved in that we can't just not say anymore. The Facade of the Ospedale degli Innocenti is his as is the Pazzi Chapel at Santa Croce. The nave and ambulatory at Santo Spirito are also Brunellschi's work. Much of architectural Florence in this period is the work of Brunlleschi.I think Angeli is also his. He was one busy designer and builder.

Justin
February 5, 2007 - 06:12 pm
Who was Michelozzo? He designed and built the palazzo Medici Riccardi. You will recall its Renaissance emphasis in horizontality with the Romanesque window frames. The courtyard which we saw a little while back is arcaded in the Romanesque style. That style in Italy does not come from France of the eleventh century but from the excavations that Brunelleschi and his buddies were conducting in Rome where buildings of the empire were brought to light from the ruins.

bluebird24
February 5, 2007 - 06:15 pm
http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/giorgio.vasari/brunell/brunell3.htm

click on pictures to make them big

Justin
February 5, 2007 - 06:19 pm
Thank You Bluebird. That link helped to show some of the architectural work of Brunelleschi.

robert b. iadeluca
February 5, 2007 - 07:07 pm
I haven't heard from the rest of you on all those important remarks of Durant in Posts 23 and 34. What are your reactions to what was said about books, manuscripts, difficulty in finding the hidden works, the labors of scholars, etc. etc.?

Robby

Justin
February 5, 2007 - 07:16 pm
I don't know whether it is a good place to comment on Pico and Pozzo except to say that Pico attempted to reconcile Greek religion and philosophy with Christianity and Pozzo who was a contemporary of Brunelleschi, defined the characteristics of archeology for those who wished to probe the ruins of Rome. Later on I think Durant deals with these guys in more depth.

Robby, By the way, what page are we on?

3kings
February 5, 2007 - 08:59 pm
Justin The last passage entered by Robby was taken from pp 78-79. ++ Trevor

Justin
February 5, 2007 - 10:31 pm
Poggia is the guy who brought all the classical manuscripts to Florence making the Renaissance a Greek revival in literature as well painting, sculpture, and architecture.

It looks like we are on page 78 and the fault for the overload of all these Renaissance figures is not you Robby; but Durant. We are being offered introductory material.

Fifi le Beau
February 5, 2007 - 10:35 pm
"Anceolo de Ochis was ready to sacrifice his home, his wife, his life to add to his library. Poggio suffered when he saw money being spent on anything else than books."

How much are you willing to sacrifice for books?


We really don't have to sacrifice for books in this age. We have so much available to us there is no way to read it all. I read mostly current non fiction and it can be obtained at the library.

I buy books at used bookmarts, as do my daughters and we read them and pass them around. I get new books for my birthday, mothers day, Christmas, etc. so I am overstocked most of the time. I also give books as gifts, since I consider a good book priceless.

Had I lived in the Renaissance when books were scarce, I would have been as addicted as Poggio, but perhaps not willing to sacrifice my husband and home as de Ochis.

I love books and would sacrifice a great deal to have them, but since that is no longer necessary, I rejoice that I live in this time and place.

Fifi

Bubble
February 6, 2007 - 12:44 am
He who exercises government by means of his virtue may be compared to the north polar star, which keeps its place and all the stars turn towards it. -Confucius, philosopher and teacher (c. 551-478 BCE)

Bubble
February 6, 2007 - 12:49 am
" How much are you willing to sacrifice for books?"

Quite a lot. Before I founded a family, there were times I went without hot meals by the end of the month because I had spent too much on books. I also went without much sleep because of the reading hours I kept.

Nowadays there is a lot available through the net. Priorities have also shifted with getting more responsabilities. But books, writing, words, remain a passion.

robert b. iadeluca
February 6, 2007 - 03:59 am
"An editorial revolution ensued.

"The texts so recovered were studied, compared, corrected, and explained in a campaign of scholarship that ranged from Lorenzo Valla in Naples to Sir Thomas More in London.

"Since these labors in many cases required a knowledge of Greek, Italy -- and later France, England, and Germany -- sent out a call for teachers of Greek. Aurispo and Filelfo learned the language in Greece itself.

"After Manuel Chrysoloras came to Italy as Byzantine envoy, the University of Florence persuaded him to join its faculty as professor of Greek language and literature. Among his pupils there were Poggio, Palla Strozzi, Marsuppini and Manetti. Leonardo Bruni, studying law, abandoned it under the spell of Chrysoloras for the study of Greek. He tells us:-'I gave myself to his teaching with such ardor that my dreams at night were filled with what I had learned from him during the day.'

"Who now could imagine that Greek grammar was once an adventure and a romance?"

Any one here with such an ardor to study an ancient language?

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
February 6, 2007 - 05:55 am
This link is not about literature but Sienna Campo & Duomo, Library and Baptistry takes your breath away. In the Piccolomini Library one can easily be distracted from a book by the spectacular frescoes covering the walls and ceiling.

Mallylee
February 6, 2007 - 07:05 am
Robby, I liked the description of the different uses of 'humanism', and the description of Humanism the philosophy and ethical stance.

In the article there is no metaphysical speculation, let alone metaphysical assertions such as theists hold.

So I would like to add that what most Humanists have in common with Christians and other theists is a belief, or , if not a belief, a faith, that there is a permanent reality which can be discovered either by scientific research, or , in the case of Christians etc. by attention to religious doctrines and behaviour.

Bubble
February 6, 2007 - 09:10 am
Greek (as in German) is one of the hardest languages to learn because of the desinences. One has to think of analysing the words in the sentence's construction on top of its meaning. It is very logical, very structurized but "unnatural for us speaking other modern languages.

Is Hebrew called an ancient language? It's also a hard one to master.

Robby, did you learn any of those ancient languages? I would have liked to try sanscrit because it influenced so many others.

Scrawler
February 6, 2007 - 10:42 am
I would probably spend my last dime to buy a book and when I review my charge card receipts at the end of the month I think that the amount I spent on books on any given month probably could feed a village for a month in a third world country.

I have a question about the artists and writers of this period. If it is true that the artists and writers were commissioned to do their works by the wealthy, how much influence did they really have over what they did? I can't help but wonder that it wasn't until the mid-nineteenth century that artists and writers did what THEY wanted in their own works without outside influences.

winsum
February 6, 2007 - 01:12 pm
I have too many now. a quick count about four hundred and I don't keep popular fiction but recycle it. The internet replaces the library for research so why do I keep them..THE PICTURES and the classics hard to read on the screen but I don't read them anyway. I guess just to HAVE THEM. I love books too. . . Claire

Justin
February 6, 2007 - 01:52 pm
I persist in trying my hand at Latin. Cicero is truly enjoyable and always a challenge. Ginny gave me confidence to come back to the language after an absence of many years.I have not had any real success with Greek. Perhaps I have not persisted enough but also I think because the language,while logical, is different from all the Latin derivatives I have studied. Reading in the original can give one a great sense of accomplishment.

Bubble
February 6, 2007 - 01:58 pm
Reading the Greek text is not that difficult, but understanding it all, oy... Knowing Greek and Latin roots of course helps a lot in all the modern languages.

Justin
February 6, 2007 - 02:06 pm
Eloise: The images of Sienna you posted are outstanding. Pinturichio's work is always a joy to behold.Everytime I look at his depiction of Raphael I realize that boys too can be beautiful. The Lorenzetti's were not shown. I don't know why? The nave of the Duomo, though unfinished, does not impress one as unfinished. Now that lights have been placed in the interior the beauty of the nave is very visible. It reminds me, particularly in its columns of Durham in England, though Sienna is a much more elaborately finished work. Thank you for bringing it all back. I think when we have finished with the Renaissance I will return to Italy for one last visit.

Justin
February 6, 2007 - 02:10 pm
Yes, Bubble, the endings are a b----.

JoanK
February 6, 2007 - 02:25 pm
I'm back, with my own place and computer again after being a Gypsy for over a month. I'll pick up here, and remain in forever ignorance of last month's material.

Incredible pictures of Sienna!! I can't remember going to Sienna the one time I was in Italy. Could I have been that stupid?

Ancient languages: I know a little Hebrew, less Latin, and no Greek. About ten years ago, I decided the Hebrew that I learned in Israel was going to waste. So I studied Biblical Hebrew (different and more difficult from modern Hebrew), and set myself a goal to read the whole Torah in Hebrew. I got about half-way through -- reading a little bit every day it took me a year. But I really enjoyed it, and came to love the language, difficult as it is. The "music" of the Old Testament which I always thought was in the King James translation, is actually in the Hebrew.

Now, of course, I have lost that facility in the language. I hope to get back to reading a little bit. And listening -- forget it. When I rent Israeli movies, I can only catch a word or phrase here or there.

BaBi
February 6, 2007 - 05:16 pm
SCRAWLER, I am reminded the flattering practice of painters of the period, of including their clients in paintings on religious subjects. The guy paying the bill is seen in the group kneeling before the Madonna, etc. A great painting and immortality; a bargain!

Babi

Éloïse De Pelteau
February 6, 2007 - 05:43 pm
Justin, Is this Simone Martini and Amrbogio Lorenzetti what you mean?

robert b. iadeluca
February 6, 2007 - 06:21 pm
Bubble:-The closest I came to studying ancient languages was three years of Latin in high school. I consider taking that one of the smartest things I ever did. It is so helpful in understanding English and it helps to understand an English word that one has never seen before. I also took two years of high school French which I found extremely easy due to my Latin education. And then of course there are all those medical terms which I use regularly in my profession.

As for books, over the years I built up a home library of close to 5000 books. I am not one for insisting on hard cover books just to make the library look good. For me the content is the most important so many many of them were paper back.

I am interested in just about everything so the shelves were labeled -- political science, language, recreation, history, science fiction, humor, philosophy, psychology, art, religion, etc. etc. About five years ago I began to give many of them away -- to SN, to friends, to the local library, etc.

And we must not forget eleven volumes by Durant!!

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 6, 2007 - 06:39 pm
"With all these scholars and their pupils enthsiastically active in Italy, it was but a short time when the classics of Greek literature and philosophy were rendered into Latin with more thoroughness, accuracy, and finish than in the twelfth and thirteenth centuries.

"Guarino translated parts of Strabo and Plutarch -- Traversari, Diogenes Laertius -- Valla, Herodotus, Thyucydides, and the Iliad -- Perotti, Polybius -- Ficino, Plato and Plotinus.

"Plato, above all, amazed and delighted the humanists. They gloried in the fluid grace of his style. They found in the Dialogues a drama more vivid and contemporary than anything in Aeschylus, Sophocles, or Euripides. They envied and marveled at the freedom with which the Greeks of Socrates' time discussed the most crucial problems of religion and politics and they thought they had found in Plato -- clouded with Plotinus -- a mystical philosophy that would enable them to retain a Christianity that they had ceased to believe in but never ceased to love.

"Moved by the eloquence of Gemistus Pletho and the enthusiasm of his pupils at Florence, Cosimo established there a Platonic Academy for the study of Plato and provided handsomely for Marsilio Ficino to give half a lifetime to the trasnlation and exposition of Plato's works.

Now, after a reign of four hundred years, Scholasticism lost its domination in the philosophy of the West. The dialogue and essay replaced the scholastica disputatio as the form of philosophical exposition and the exhilarating spirit of Plato entered like an energizing yeast into the rising body of European thought."

Can't you just feel the hunger and thirst these Italian people of the 14th century had for knowledge?

Robby

Justin
February 6, 2007 - 07:50 pm
Eloise: The fresco shown is by Ambrogio Lorenzetti.It is the Good Government Allegory from the Palazzo Publico. Simone Martini's work delas primarily with religious iconography.

Justin
February 6, 2007 - 07:55 pm
Italian people seem to enjoy verbal argument and especially when there is room for physical expression. They will miss Scholastic disputation. The Greek work is all on paper.

Traude S
February 6, 2007 - 09:02 pm
Ideally, foreign languages should be taught by native speakers for best results. At the very least the instructor should have studied in the country.

In that respect we were lucky these many years ago. However, in my time high schools were NOT co-educational. Coeducation was introduced after WW II. Ours was an all girls' high school. The curriculum was firmly set, all courses were mandatory, electives unknown. One of a very few extracurricular classes offered was Italian. I took it and was hooked.

After four years in elementary school, I went to the secondary school at age ten (10) where we started with French. That cut-off date is still the same, except for those who pursue a vocational education. They stay in that elementary school until age 14.

French was followed by Latin, and I had nine years of that, first grammar and then reading and translating Caesar, Cicero, Tacitus, Horace, poetry by Tibullus, Catullus, Propertius et alii . That's when we learned about ancient history and classical mythology.
Absolutely invaluable.
We were sixteen when a teacher from England joined the school under contract. We loved her.

The French teacher was indeed French and knew just how to handle us. We would get up when she came into the classroom and wait until she said: "Bon jour, mes enfants, asseyez-vous". We answerd in unison, "Bon jour, Mademoiselle" and sat down. As I said, we were ten years old. I was lucky later also at Heidelberg University where my foreign language teachers were all natives. The Russian professor had written the textbook we used. He was a marvel.

I recently quizzed my old school friend about her grand nephew and grand niece, both teenagers. She e-mailed that both take English, Latin and Greek. They have a private tutor for French because apparently the instructor provided by the school is not satisfactory.

It seems there is now greater freedom regarding electives although they do not replace any of the required subjects.
It is important to note that the study of foreign languages continues through high school and is progressively expanded. The youngsters speak English, for example, earlier and better than our generation did.

robert b. iadeluca
February 7, 2007 - 04:44 am
Intriguing, Traude. I won't mention what is going on in the American school systems these days. It makes my hair stand on end.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 7, 2007 - 05:00 am
"As Italy recovered more and more of its own classic heritage, the admiration of the humanists for Greece was surpassed by their pride in the literature and art of ancient Rome.

"They revived latin as a medium of living literature. They Latinized their names and Romanized the terms of Christian worship and Life. God became Juppiter, Providence fatum, the saints divi, nuns vestales, the pope pontifex maximus.

"They fashioned their prose style on Cicero, their poetry on Virgil and Horace and some, like Filelfo, Valla, and Politian, achieved an almost classic elegance.

"So, in its course, the Renaissance moved back from Greek to Latin, from Athens to Rome. Fifteen centuries appeared to fall away and the age of Cicero and Horace, of Ovid and Seneca, seemed reborn.

"Style became more important than substance, form triumphed over matter, and the oratory of majestic periods rang again in the halls of princes and pedagogues.

"Perhaps it would have been better if the humanists had used Italian. But they looked down upon the speech of the Commedia and the Canzoniere as a corrupt and degenerate Latin(which almost it was) and deplored Dante's choice of the vernacular tongue. As a penalty the humanists lost touch with the living sources of literature and the people, leaving their works to the aristocracy, preferred the jolly tales -- novelle -- of Sacchetti and Bandello, or the exciting mixture of war and love in the romances that were being translated or adapted into Italian from the French.

"Nevertheless the passing infatuation with a dying language and an 'immoral' literature helped Italian authors to recapture the architecture, sculpture, and music of style and to formulate the canons of taste and utterance that lifted the vernaculars to literary form and set a goal and a standard for art.

"In the field of history it was the humanists who ended the succession of medieval chronicles -- chaotic and uncritical -- by scrutinizing and harmonizing sources, marshaling the matter into order and clarity, vitalizing and humanizing the past by mingling biography with history, and raising their narratives to some level of philosophy by discerning causes, currents, and effects, and studying the regularities and lessons of history."

Your comments, please?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 7, 2007 - 05:57 am
HERE is supplemental info about the Renaissance.

Please note this sentence:-"The inpenetration of Greek and Latin culture that occurred as a result of the formation of extensive Latin dominions in the Eastern Mediterranean after the 4th Crusade can be regarded as the basic condition, if not directly the cause, of the Renaissance. It began in Italy, and its first period was marked by a revival of interest in classical literature and the classical ideals."

I am asking myself - what were these "extensive Latin dominions in the Eastern Mediterranean?"

Robby

Scrawler
February 7, 2007 - 08:46 am
My high school graduating class (1962) was the last to take Latin. We had spent four years translating the works of Caesar. I doubt there were very many of us back than that appreciated reading about Caesar as he marched through Gaul etc. I think we were more concerned about modern history like what was happening in Cuba, Russia, or Vietnam. At any rate Latin was dropped from the schedule after we graduated.

Rich7
February 7, 2007 - 09:24 am
Re your question in post#72. The 4th Crusade never got to the Holy Land. On the way, the mostly Venetian led forces found that they would have an easier time sacking Constantinople. That was accomplished in 1201, and Venice ruled the Byzantine Empire and Crete for more than half a century until 1261.

Here's an essay on the influence of Venice on Crete during Venetian colonial rule. The Venetians even built themselves a small replica of Saint Mark's Square on the island.

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~spnorton/Platsis%20web%20page.htm

Rich

Justin
February 7, 2007 - 06:06 pm
The Venitians controlled Constantinople from the first decade of Trecento until the Ottomans appeared some centuries later. The cellars and attics of churches and public buildings in Byzantium yielded Greek and Latin literary booty in abundance.

Justin
February 7, 2007 - 06:53 pm
# 75 is in error. The Ventians held Constantinople until Baldwin, who was so broke, began selling relics in Europe. The Greeks defeated him in 1261 and took back their posessions. In the prior century the Genoese helped take Jerusalem and thus gave a Latin flavor to that city.

Classical literary manuscripts were found stored in public buildings and monasteries in all parts of Byzantium and these when shipped to Venice and then to Florence resulted in a rebirth of old ideas.

There is no question in my mind that the Crusades, designed by the Church to tighten its hold on the world actually resulted in a loosening of the power of the church.

Justin
February 8, 2007 - 12:07 am
It just occurred to me that if these documents had not reached Florence at this time and been much in evidence during the ensuing enlightenment they might not have been on the shelves of Jefferson, Madison, Hamilton, Gerry, Morris, Paine, etc , when they were needed to support the American political revolutiion.

Éloïse De Pelteau
February 8, 2007 - 02:52 am
WILL DURANT FOUNDATION

"That same preface contained some prophetic lines, written in 1934:

At this historic moment -- when the ascendancy of Europe is so rapidly coming to an end, when Asia is swelling with resurrected life, and the theme of the 20th century seems destined to be an all-embracing conflict between the East and the West -- the provincialism of our traditional histories, which began with Greece and summed up Asia in a line, has become no merely academic error, but a possibly fatal failure of perspective and intelligence. The future faces into the Pacific, and understanding must follow it there."


Who is going to listen to this great man?

"We could do almost anything if time would slow up," he once said, adding "but it runs on, and we melt away trying to keep up with it." Yes, and I am out of breath trying to keep up.

Sorry about the diversion.

Traude, I totally agree with your views on languages, I feel that knowing two is not even enough, Latin gives a base for several other languages.

robert b. iadeluca
February 8, 2007 - 05:21 am
"The humanism movement spread throughout Italy but until the accession of a Florentine Medici to the papacy its leaders were almost all citizens or graduates of Florence.

"Coluccio Salutari, who became executive secretary or chancellor (cancellarius) to the Signory in 1375, was a bridge from Petrarch and Boccaccio to Cosimo, knowing and loving all three.

"The public documents drawn up by him were models of classical Latinity and set an example that officials in Venice, Milan, Naples, and Rome bestirred themselves to follow. Giangaleazzo Vinconte of Milan said that Salutari had done him more harm by excellence of style than could have come from an army of mercenaries.

"The fame of Niccolo de' Niccoli as a Latin stylist rivaled his renown as a collector of manuscripts. Bruni called him the 'censor of the Latin tongue' and, like other authors, submitted his own writings to Niccoli for correction before publishing them. Niccoli filled his house with ancient classics, statuary, inscriptions, vases, coins, and gems. He avoided marriage lest it distract him from his books but found time for a concubine stolen from his brother's bed.

"He opened his library to all who cared to study there and urged young Florentines to abandon luxury for literature. Seeing a wealthy youth idling the day away, Niccoli asked him:-'What is your object in life?' The reply was:-'To have a good time.'

"But when your youth is over, of what consequence will you be?' The youth saw the point and put himself under Niccoli's tutelage."

"Leonardo Bruni, secretary to four popes and then to the Florentine Signory, translated several dialogues of Plato into a Latin whose excellence for the first time fully revealed the splendor of Plato's style to Italy.

"He composed a Latin History of Florence for which the Republic exempted him and his children from taxation and his speeches were compared with those of Pericles. When he died the priors decreed him a public funeral after the manner of the ancients. He was buried in the church of Santa Croce with his History on his breasste.

"Bernardo Rostellino designed for his resting place a noble and sumptuous tomb."

Who do we have these days whose style of writing is admired by the populace and whose writings will be relevant centuries from now?

Robby

Bubble
February 8, 2007 - 05:35 am
Here, we thing Abba Eben had such a style. He was a much admired languist and orator.

He did a serie on the birth of Israel for television and was a very convincing narrator. In Hebrew this program was called The fire pillar. Get the DVD if you can.

robert b. iadeluca
February 8, 2007 - 06:03 am
I remember Abba Eben very well. When he spoke, people listened.

Robby

Bubble
February 8, 2007 - 06:08 am
http://www.queens.cam.ac.uk/Queens/Record/1998/eban.html

Ancient languages, Oriental languages, classical eduaction: it shows!

BaBi
February 8, 2007 - 07:09 am
BUBBLE, I went immediately to look for that Abba Eban DVD, only to discover that the set costs $100.00. Pity; I can't afford that. I did find the following Eban quote:

History teaches us that men and nations behave wisely when they have exhausted all other alternatives.

Has Eban written any books? I found quotes, but none seemed to be from a written source.

ROBBY, don't you long for the day when scholarship was so honored and respected? sigh

Babi

Bubble
February 8, 2007 - 07:52 am
Oh yes BaBi he wrote plenty. One is

ABBA EBAN: Abba Eban an Autobiography

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/results.asp?ATH=Eban%2C+Abba&z=y

There are two quips by former Israeli Foreign Secretary Abba Eben, that seem appropriate to reflect upon whenever one discusses the Israeli-Arab attempts at peace negotiations "The Arabs" Mr. Eben had famously said "Never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity". The Israeli government, on the other hand "only does the right thing after having exhausted every other possibility"

"Heritage" was made into a TV serie as well.

EllieC1113
February 8, 2007 - 07:57 am
I have just gotten back from a vacation trip to Charleston, SC. I am inundated with paperwork and regular work for my business. In addition, I am generating a second draft of a book that I am writing. The book is going well. That is taking up much of my time. I have read many of the back posts that I missed when I was away. Did not access e-mail or the Internet while I was on vacation. I am still lurking here, and I will probably not post anything but this note, until I catch up. That may take a week or two. I still enjoy reading your posts.

Eleanor

Traude S
February 8, 2007 - 08:21 am
For a measure of this extraordinary man, check
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abba_Eban

Justin
February 8, 2007 - 03:38 pm
Winston Churchill may fit the bill. I have always thought well of Walter Lippman but no one reads him anymore. Many writers of today's scene are very capable but there are very few who write sustaining works. I am hard pressed to find one who will be relevant 100 years from now.

Traude S
February 8, 2007 - 03:42 pm
In # 79, third paragraph, is that Gian Galeazzo Visconti of Milan ?
Is that the man ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gian_Galeazzo_Visconti

Rich7
February 8, 2007 - 04:26 pm
His memorable and thoughtful words were most often spoken by him, and taken down by others.

BaBi, Your question, "ROBBY, don't you long for the day when scholarship was so honored and respected? sigh." ...got me thinking, again, of something I have noticed in recent years. Valedictorian speeches during high school and college graduations in my time used to carry references to, and quotations from, great writers and thinkers. (Kipling, Frost, Wordsworth, Voltaire, etc.)

Your valedictorian of today is more likely to quote lyrics from Elton John, Jim Morrison, Jefferson Airplane, or Pink Floyd.

Rich

robert b. iadeluca
February 8, 2007 - 05:44 pm
"It is clear that Christianity, in both its theology and its ethics, had lost its hold on perhaps a majority of the Italian humanists.

"Several, like Traversari, Bruni, and Manetti in Florence, Vittorino da Feltre in Mantua, Guarino da Verona in Ferrara, and Flevio Biondo in Rome, remained loyal to the faith. But to many others the revelation of a Greek culture lasting a thousand years and reaching the heights of literature, philosohy and art in complete independence of Judaism and Christianity, was a mortal blow to their belief in the Pauline theology or in the doctrine of nulla salus exra ecclesiam -- 'no salvation outsde the Church.'

"Socrates and Plato became for them uncanonized saints. The dynasty of the Greek philosophers seemed to them superior to the Greek and Latin Fathers. The prose of Plato and Cicero made even a cardinal ashamed of the Greek of the New Testament and the Latin of Jeromes translation.

"The grandeur of Imperial Rome seemed nobler than the timid retreat of convinced Christians into monastic cells. The free thought and conduct of Periclean Greeks or Augustan Romans filled many humanists with an envy that shattered in their hearts the Christian code of humility, otherworldliness, continence. They wondered why they shold subject body, mind, and soul to the rule of ecclesiastics who themselves were now joyously converted to the world.

"For these humanists the ten centuries between Constantine and Dante were a tragic error, a Dantesque losing of the right road. The lovely legends of the Virgin and the saints faded from their memory to make room for Ovid's Metamorphoses and Horaces ambisexual odes.

"The great cathedrals now seemed barbarous and their gaunt statuary lost all charm for eyes that had seen, fingers that had touched, the Apollo Belvedere."

The shock must have been similar to that of a man blind from birth who now receives sight.

Robby

bluebird24
February 8, 2007 - 06:00 pm
http://www.answers.com/topic/apollo-belvedere

click on picture to make it big

3kings
February 8, 2007 - 06:49 pm
Winston Churchill ? He's a long way from the Renaissance, but as others speak here of him, I may be allowed two quotes from the great man :-

" I do not understand this squeamishness about the use of gas. I am strongly in favour of using poisoned gas against uncivilised tribes." On the 1921 occasion of the forced union of three disparate peoples into the make believe country of Iraq. All under British control, of course.

"The Arab and Kurd now know what real bombing means in casualties and damage. Within forty-five minutes a full sized village can be practically wiped out, and a third of the inhabitants killed or injured." Churchill's commander in Iraq, counseling against the use of gas bombs. Acts like the above became Britain's favoured way of punishing recalcitrant Arab and other middle eastern tax payers.

In 1940 Churchill bought large stocks of poison gas from the US. saying "It is absurd to consider morality on this topic when everybody used it in the last war without a word of complaint from the moralists or the Church."

I'll refrain from making any comment on Churchill's idiotically conceived adventure ( 1915) at Gallipoli. ( Lord of the Admiralty, even if he knew less about rowing a boat than riding a camel....) ++ Trevor.

Rich7
February 8, 2007 - 08:26 pm
was a disaster, but, as we say in an American baseball analogy, Babe Ruth struck out 1330 times.

Nobody hits a home run every time at bat, but Winston certainly was the right man at the right time during Britain's "Finest hour."

Rich

Justin
February 8, 2007 - 11:21 pm
Trevor: I agree.Churchill did have some bad days at bat. Gallipoli was tragic. Yugoslavia and Iraq were not smart;the Palestine thing a mess. Pushing disparate elements into diplomatically made countries has often failed.

I'm not sure about international agreements covering poison gas. I do know that I was able to use my gas mask bag to carry pogey bait, pipe tobacco, insect repellent, and pocket books for those odd moments.

I picked Churchill because his writing was popularly read and I thought sufficiently thorough to make him relevant in 100 or 200 years.

Who might a third be? Mein Kampf, perhaps, on what not to do? It satisfies the conditions of the request.

Bubble
February 9, 2007 - 02:12 am
"In the words of Henry Kissinger (About Eban):

"I have never encountered anyone who matched his command of the English language. Sentences poured forth in mellifluous constructions complicated enough to test the listener’s intelligence and simultaneously leave him transfixed by the speaker’s virtuosity." "


This was also true when he spoke or orated in Hebrew, he had an astonishing command of the language even though he learn to speak it late in life.

I would say that is the difference with Churchill, the command of so many foreign languages, and thus the understanding of very different cultures.

Yes, Churchill made some resonnant (lofty?) speeches and his diaries or memoirs are still read today. My dad, a great admirer, had them on permanence on his night table (next to Andre Gide's diary). I am not sure about the impact of them today or in the future.


"The lovely legends of the Virgin and the saints faded from their memory to make room for Ovid's Metamorphoses and Horaces ambisexual odes."

Maybe those legends were not penned in such a flamboyant style!

Éloïse De Pelteau
February 9, 2007 - 05:27 am
What Churchill did was to instill hope when all of Britain was in despair of winning the war. His delivery had a ring of victory. Had Britain lost the war, she would have lost her colonies, which had risen Britain to unprecedent heights. Without Churchill Canadians might not have the Queen's picture on their money.

Books and speeches become immortal when their words ring so true that they reach the heart and soul.

Bubble I will have to read Eban.

robert b. iadeluca
February 9, 2007 - 05:27 am
Reactions to Post 90, please?

Robby

Rich7
February 9, 2007 - 05:47 am
One line from Durant struck me relating to the new humanists rediscovery of the art, science, and grandeur of ancient Rome and Greece and their rejection of the repression of Church control in their lives:

"They wondered why they should subject body, mind, and soul to the rule of ecclesiastics who themselves were now joyously converted to the world."

Rich

EllieC1113
February 9, 2007 - 12:37 pm
I'll go with John Maynard Keynes or Jonas Salk. I can think of a few other academic types, as well.

Regarding Durant: "For these humanists the ten centuries between Constantine and Dante were a tragic error, a Dantesque losing of the right road." My comment: In one sentence, he dismisses any positive reference to the accomplishments of ten centuries. Please, Mr. Durant! A total tragic error. Ten centuries of tragic error. Talk about overgeneralization. And of course, Durant, brilliant as he is, knows what the right road is. Does he really think that the humanists of the time were so all-or-nothing in their thinking as to dismiss without reservation the ten previous centuries of human history. I believe that most intelligent people "take what they like and leave the rest," in evaluating the accomplishments and errors of a millenium in the movements of civilization.

Durant says: "The lovely legends of the Virgin and the saints faded from their memory to make room for Ovid's Metamorphoses and Horaces ambisexual odes." My comment: I guess the humanists weren't capable of considering two sets of ideas or two different perspectives at the same time. I am assuming Durant is talking about the intellectual leaders of the culture.

Durant goes on: "The great cathedrals now seemed barbarous and their gaunt statuary lost all charm for eyes that had seen, fingers that had touched, the Apollo Belvedere." My comment: Oh, please spare me the barbarity of the great cathedrals. I love Durant's style of (similar to George W. Bush) it's either all good or all bad.



Eleanor

Bubble
February 9, 2007 - 01:23 pm
I think I could be more interested in politics if our modern leaders and governemnt members could construct sentences like Durant or discourses like Cicero!

BaBi
February 9, 2007 - 02:18 pm
BUBBLE, thank you for the info. on Eban's books. I'm hoping to get both his autobiography and the 'Heritage'.

I took a good look at the Apollo Belvedere (thanks for the link). While it is certainly a beautiful work of art, Michelangelo's David is, to my mind, equally great. It seems to me a narrow view, from the opposite end of the spectrum perhaps, to find the grandeur of the cathedrals barbaric because Greek sculpture has been rediscovered. These are two different venues and styles, each with their own demands and merits. Do I detect a hint of the poseur in that 'humanist' criticism?

Babi

Justin
February 9, 2007 - 02:22 pm
Trevor: One cannot with honor minimize the magnitude of the disaster at Galipoli. The regiments that were anilhilated were Australian and New Zealand cavalry forced to fight from fixed positions. It was no small error on Churchill's part. He repeated the mistake in Norway. .

BaBi
February 9, 2007 - 02:27 pm
It would seem perhaps that Churchills chief attribute was bullheadedness. Perhaps it was England's good fortune that bullheadedness was what was needed in their time of crisis.

Babi

Justin
February 9, 2007 - 02:42 pm
The messages of Keynes an Salk are for all time though perhaps a little dull. I read Keynes in undergraduate school and after much labor I thought I understood some of his income theories. Adam Smith was easier reading and equally relevant for all time. I must try Abba Eban

Justin
February 9, 2007 - 03:52 pm
On 90. I guess Lincoln was right. One can't fool all the people all the time. Somebody has to catch-on. This time it was the Humanists.

Fifi le Beau
February 9, 2007 - 04:51 pm
Post #90.....the humanists.

"It is clear that Christianity, in both its theology and its ethics, had lost its hold on perhaps a majority of the Italian humanists.

After spending two years on the 'Age of Faith' and before that 'Caesar and Christ', it was a pleasure to again see Greece rediscovered by the Italians. The thousand year reign of terror and myth was over for Italy, and it would never completely dominate them again.

Italy today remains one of the least religious countries in Europe with a low church attendance and marriage rate.

Church domination and terror is not over for Europe in this saga, but it has been dehorned, with castration in its future. It will become more docile in time mainly as a collection agency of art, manuscripts, property, and the paupers pence.

Fifi

robert b. iadeluca
February 9, 2007 - 04:51 pm
I plead with all participants to refrain from bringing current political figures into the discussion.

Robby

Fifi le Beau
February 9, 2007 - 06:08 pm
Trevor, thank you for that post on Churchill. I have been without internet service since my cable company is having problems. I had written a post and then lost my connection and when I got back on there was your post...Great!

Rich, your statement.....

Your valedictorian of today is more likely to quote lyrics from Elton John, Jim Morrison, Jefferson Airplane, or Pink Floyd.

My grandson is a senior in high school. He was born in 1990. He never heard of the musicians you mentioned with the exception of Elton John that he thought performed 'circus music' from watching a video on television.

I'm afraid that the 'Black eyed Peas', JayZ, or some other group has his attention. He will not be giving the valedictorian address but he did sink a three pointer from downtown to win the game against their biggest rivals.

His heros are not some musicians ramblings but a guy who can do a reverse slam dunk.

When it comes to speeches and quotes, they each have a notebook of my favorite quotes gathered over 65 years and he is amazed at the insight of the ancients. Some of the quotes are from our family, and now it's his turn. I tell him to take a short concise sentence that he believes to be true and construct his speech around it.

My advice is 'only dead fish swim with the stream', be original and believe what you are speaking about and it will be fine.

Forget the rock stars..... use the ancients.... they're smarter than you think.... it has all been said before and better.

He listens.

Fifi

Rich7
February 9, 2007 - 06:29 pm
Fifi, Yes I'm afraid I dated myself with the Elton John, Pink Floyd, etc., reference. The "music" stars of today are unknown to me.

I do, however, understand sinking a game-winning three pointer "from downtown," and my congratulations to your grandson.

Rich

Traude S
February 9, 2007 - 06:43 pm
It seems to me that some of Durant's statements in the paragraphs quoted in # 90 are rather sweeping.

"Several (humanists)" (and they are named) "remained loyal to the faith."

No examples are given for "the many others" for whom "the revelation of Greek culture ... was a mortal blow to their belief in the Pauline theology of nulla salus extra ecclesiam .

Nor is the cardinal named who was "ashamed of the Greek of the New Testament and the Latin of Jerome's translation."

Is Durant quoting someone ? or does he express his own opinion in the (curiously worded) sentence "The grandeur of Imperial Rome seemed nobler than the timid retreat (!!) of convinced Christians into monastic cells" ? Which one of the humanists actually said the "great cathedrals seemed barbarous and their gaunt statuary lost all charm" ?

I echo ELLIE in also taking exception to the "ten centuries between Constantine and Dante" that "were a tragic error". I am sorry, but this is not objective historic reporting, in my humble opinion. (No, I am not Catholic.)

While I am fussy, "Convinced Christians" also strikes me as peculiar. I never heard of unconvinced Christians.

Fifi le Beau
February 9, 2007 - 09:38 pm
Traude, your statement.....

It seems to me that some of Durant's statements in the paragraphs quoted in # 90 are rather sweeping.

"Several (humanists)" (and they are named) "remained loyal to the faith."

No examples are given for "the many others" for whom "the revelation of Greek culture ... was a mortal blow to their belief in the Pauline theology of nulla salus extra ecclesiam .


Durant gives examples of the 'many others' but Robby does not copy every word on every page, else this discussion would take too long. Durant has 55 notes in this Chapter 111 alone quoting from around 30 books.

I found Poggio Bracciolini an interesting character that would fit one of the 'others'. A copyist and friend of Salutati who helped him secure an appointment, at twenty four, as a secretary in the papal chancery at Rome.

For the next half century he served the Curia, never taking even minor orders, but wearing ecclesiastical dress. The Curia valued his energy and learning and sent him on many missions. From these he digressed time and time again to look for classic manuscripts.

Back in Rome he wrote for Martin V vigorous defenses of church dogma, and in private gatherings joined with other employees of the Curia in laughing at the Christian creed. (Durant lists two sources for this information in his notes)

He wrote dialogues and letters satirizing the vices of the clergy while practicing them himself.

Cardinal Sant' Angelo reproved him for having children. Poggio replied, "I have children, which is becoming to a layman, and I have a mistress, which is an old custom of the clergy"

At fifty five he abandoned the mistress who had given him fourteen children, and married a girl of eighteen.

He accompanied Pope Eugenius 1V to the Council of Florence. He worked with especial pleasure for the humanist Pope Nicholas V.

At seventy he composed his famous Liber facetiarum a collection of stories, satires, and obscenities.

He took any criticism so seriously that Vespasiano said, "the whole world was afraid of him."

He composed a treatise on the human condition and wrote a history of Florence. Many breathed a sigh of relief when he died at age 79.

He was buried at Santa Croce; his statue by Donatello was erected on the facade of the duomo; and in 1560 in the confusion of some alterations, it was set up inside the cathedral as one of the twelve Apostles.


Poggio saw it all, both sides, and wrote and wrote and wrote. He was as they would say today a 'player' and no one had a better seat at the game of 'life vs myth' than he.

Fifi

Malryn
February 9, 2007 - 11:49 pm

Thanks, FIFI, for saying about Durant and his and Ariel's books what I've tried so hard to get across in the past several years. Yes, it would take ages to copy every page of these books. Often what we don't read, like the notes and bibliography, is as important as what Robby types out.

Some of the misunderstandings I've seen here about Durant and The Story of Civilization would not take place if the book were held in one's hand and its pages were turned.

Most libraries have these books. The copies I've bought through Amazon have been five dollars or less, a bargain at such prices that makes the shipping cost well worth the small amount that it is.

Quite a fellow that Poggio. Thanks, FIFI, for all that information.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
February 10, 2007 - 06:03 am
"So the humanist, by and large, acted as if Christianity were a myth comfortable to the needs of popular imagination and morality but not to be taken seriously by emancipated minds.

"They supported it in their public pronouncements, professed a saving orthodoxy, and struggled to harmonize Christian doctrine with Greek philosophy.

"The very effort betrayed them. Implicitly they accepted reason as the supreme court and honoured Plato's Dialogues equally with the New Testament. Like the Sophists of pre-Socratic Greece, they directly or indirectly, willfully or unwittingly, undermined their hearers' religious faith.

"Their lives reflected their actual creed. Many of them accepted and practiced the ethics of paganism in the sensual rather than in the Stoic sense. The only immortality they recognized was that which came through the recording of great deeds. They with their peers, not God, would confer it, would destine men to everlasting glory or shame. A generation after Cosimo they would agree to share this magic power with the artists who carved or painted the effigies of patrones, or built nobile edifices that preserved a donors name.

"The desire of patrons to achieve such mundane immortality was one of the strongest generative forces in the art and literature of the Renaissance."

Robby

Rich7
February 10, 2007 - 07:05 am
so long praising the emergence of humanism and its emancipating ways over Church control of thought and action, Durant surprised me with his use of "mundane" in the last sentence:

"The desire of patrons to achieve such mundane immortality was one of the strongest generative forces in the art and literature of the Renaissance."

I had to look the word up, and, doing so, learned that "mundane" has two meanings. The one with which I was familiar has "mundane" meaning commonplace, pedestrian, run-of-the-mill, but the first definition given by Webster has mundane meaning "of the world" (as opposed, I suppose, to "of the supernatural"). Webster's second definition gives us "commonplace" for mundane.

Obviously Durant intended "mundane" to be understood in the way given in Webster's first definition.

Main Entry: mun·dane Pronunciation: "m&n-'dAn, 'm&n-" Function: adjective Etymology: Middle English mondeyne, from Anglo-French mundain, from Late Latin mundanus, from Latin mundus world

1 : of, relating to, or characteristic of the world

2 : characterized by the practical, transitory, and ordinary : COMMONPLACE <the mundane concerns of day-to-day life>

Rich

Éloïse De Pelteau
February 10, 2007 - 07:24 am
Than why are there 60 million copies of the Bible sold every year if it is only a myth?

Durant, said himself he didn't know about beliefs any more than "any urchin on the street". Then why should I believe anyone who claims they know if Durant himself doesn't know? He is only describing his own feelings about what he found during his research.

I think Traude has a point and I often feel that Durant shows his bias.

Malryn
February 10, 2007 - 09:30 am

I'm tempted to quit -- again. Not that it matters much in the long run of things and the speck of time and space that has been allotted to me on this earth.

I've grown tired of a discussion that revolves so much around the authors of these books, rather than trying to discover, as these two researchers and thinkers did, "what were the steps by which man passed from barbarism to civilization."

Will and Ariel Durant devoted their lives to this endeavor. I'd like to see any two of us attempt to do the same thing.

Mal

BaBi
February 10, 2007 - 10:19 am
In all fairness:

"Who do we have these days whose style of writing is admired by the populace and whose writings will be relevant centuries from now?"

Robby, you did open the door to discussion of contemporary leaders with that question. It was a valid question, and got a number of responses.

Malryn, can we really evaluate the reasoning of the Durants in writing about the "steps by which man passed from barbarism to civilization", without taking into account obvious biases on their part?

Babi

robert b. iadeluca
February 10, 2007 - 11:31 am
When I first read Durant's phrase "mundane immortality," I interpreted it to mean "immortality" found here on earth, as Humanists obviously looked at it. No one explained the differences in immortality better than Woody Allen who said: "I want to become immortal, not by achieving things before I die, but by not dying."

Eloise:-Of those 60 million copies of the Bible sold each year, how many are thoroughly read, and of that number, how many of the readers practice what is written therein?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 10, 2007 - 11:58 am
"The influence of the humanists was for a century the dominant factor in the intellectual life of Western Europe.

"They taught writers a sharper sense of structure and form. They taught them also the artifices of rhetoric, the frills of language, the abracadabra of mythology, the fetishism of classical quotation, the sacrifice of significance to correctness of speech and beauty of style.

"Their infatuation with Latin postponed for a century the development of Italian poetry and prose. They emancipated science from theology but impeded it by worshiping the past and by stressing erudition rather than objective observation and original thought.

"Strange to say, they were least influential in the universities. These were alrady old in Italy. At Bologna, Padua, Pisa, Piacenza, Pavia, Naples, Siena, Arezzo, Lucca, the faculties of law, medicine, theology, and 'arts' -- i.e. language, literature, rhetoric, and philosophy -- were too mortised in medieval custom to allow a new emphasis on ancient cultures. At most they yelded, here and there, a chair of rhetoric to a humanist.

"The influence of the 'revival of letters' operated chiefly through academies founded by patron princes in Florence, Naples, Venice, Ferrara, Mantua, Milan, and Rome. There the humanities dictated in Greek or Latin the classic text they proposed to discuss. At each step they commented in Latin on the grammatical, rhetorical, geographical, biographical, and literary aspects of the text. Their students took down the dictated text, and, in the margins, much of the commentary. In this way copies of the classics, and of commentaries as well, were multiplied and were scattered into the world.

"The age of Cosimo was therefore a period of devoted scholarship rather than of creative literature. Grammar, lexicography, archeology, rhetoric, and the critical revision of classical texts wer the literary glories of the time.

"The form, machinery, and substance of modern erudition were established. A bridge was built by which the legacy of Greece and Rome passed into the modern mind."

Is this what these days we call "liberal arts"?

Robby

gaj
February 10, 2007 - 12:42 pm
Robby you asked Eloise:-Of those 60 million copies of the Bible sold each year, how many are thoroughly read, and of that number, how many of the readers practice what is written therein? Many people who own Bibles read them and practice the ideals presented in it. Who are todays humanists and what is there text? What do humanists practice? I have learned that my generation disdained many of the ideas of their parents generation. BUT, they had/have much of the ideals as part of themselves. Their children never saw those ideals practiced so are lacking in in them. For example, they don't have the same work ethics as their parents. COULD the Renassiance Humanists still have a part of the 'myth's' as part of their psyches?

A liberal education is becoming harder to obtain because of the attitude of 'Will it prepare the student for a job?' I have a degree in English. It only opened the door for me to substitute teach.

We are going through Durant, but I doubt that many of the younger generations will bother with it. The Humanists threw the baby out with the bath water.

EllieC1113
February 10, 2007 - 04:25 pm
GinnyAnn, I like that question. Who are today's humanists, and what do they practice? I would say that many academics and politicians may claim to be today's humanists. Also writers. I am acquainted with the thinking of a few academic historians who might qualify as members of today's humanist group. I am reading Battle Cry of Freedom by James McPherson, a professor of history at Princeton. I think he would qualify. I like his objectivity and empathy for most of the historical figures in his book on the Civil War. My daughter likes the humanism of Eugene Genovese, who wrote Roll, Jordan, Roll. There is a magazine called the Humanist, which I have seen at my local library branch. Maybe that would qualify as one of their texts. I haven't read it. Just glanced at it once.

Eleanor

Justin
February 10, 2007 - 04:26 pm
Eloise: Most of the people in this world believe that the creator of the universe wrote a book ( or inspired a book). Unfortunately, today there are many such books- The Qu'ran, the Torah, and the Gospels, to name a few. They are all thought to be infallible and they are all incompatible. In this discussion we have read some of each and have not yet been able to equate number of purchases with validity or honesty.

Justin
February 10, 2007 - 04:42 pm
Many Unitarians think of themselves as Humanists however, the large majority of Humanists are unaffiliated feeling that group discussion or human comingling adds little or nothing to the Humanist premise.

Justin
February 10, 2007 - 05:21 pm
During the Renaissance there was a gradual expansion of art patronage. In the Trecento the Church was the only patron.It had a didactic motivation and it had the money to pay artists. Very gradually, in the Quatrocento, artists began to work for wealthy patrons who were interested in naked bodies with wings. These same patrons, some of whom questioned the availability of immortality through the Church, sought to achieve immortality by being made part of religious iconography. Titian painted the Madonna of the Pesaro Family- a work we almost saw when we were back in Venice at the Church of the Frari. Traude remembers. Pesaro was Bishop of Cyprus and commander of the papal fleet who led a successful expedition against the Turks. The painting includes the Madonna and Child, St. Pter, a banner of the Borgia Pope and the commander-bishop and his family.

In the first quarter of the Quatrocento Roger Campin did a triptych on wood with center panel depicting the Annunciation. Rt. panel depicts St Joseph at his work bench and the left shows the donor and his wife peeking in through a door to see the Annunciation. The work is a fine example of the humanizing effect of this new-old idea. The halos are gone and the scene is laid in a middle class household. The Virgin is reading when approached.

These examples are all part of the Northern Renaissance. I chose them rather than the Italian because i thought them a little more interesting.

Here is an Italian donor scene from the late Renaissance period. Domenico Ghirlandaio painted the fresco in Santa Maria Novella, in Florence. It is called the Birth of the Virgin.The Tornabuani family are the patrons and the ladies of that family appear on scene from the left.

Éloïse De Pelteau
February 10, 2007 - 05:30 pm
ROGER CAMPIN TRIPTYCH a very fine piece of art, new to me.

Justin
February 10, 2007 - 05:32 pm
Ginny Ann. If by "practice" you mean attending a church service, lighting candles, genuflecting, blessing oneself or others, participating in the sacraments, wearing vestments, praying, then it should be clear that Humanists don't practice. They have the literature of the world for text just as the early humanists were diverted from church domination by Greek literature.

Justin
February 10, 2007 - 05:39 pm
Eloise: Thank you. The Campin piece is a beautiful work and it is ours. Everytime I go to New York I never fail to visit the Cloisters just to examine it again. The donors look a little like two kids sneaking in under the tent to see the show. The work is so humanized one can easily feel a part of the scene.

bluebird24
February 10, 2007 - 05:49 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titian

click on pictures to make them big you can click on words in color too

gaj
February 10, 2007 - 06:13 pm
Justin ~ I don't mean ...attending a church service, lighting candles, genuflecting, blessing oneself or others, participating in the sacraments, wearing vestments ... I do mean praying that doesn't draw undue attention to oneself. I mean serving in a soup kitchen on Thanksgiving rather than sitting at home stuffing themselves, I mean not gossiping at the office or in a knitting circle.

Traude S
February 10, 2007 - 06:54 pm
Thank you, JUSTIN, for mentioning Roger Campin; thank you, ÉLOÏSE, for the link to Campin's triptych. What warm colors and detail !

Thank you for the Titian link, BLUEBIRD.

GAJ, I know what you meant.

Here is a link to Ghirlandaio's frescoes in the Basilica di Santa Maria Novella. Scroll down a little.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domenico_Ghirlandaio

Justin
February 10, 2007 - 07:52 pm
Traude: Thanks for the Ghirlandaio Virgin Birth. As you can see there are many characters in the fresca. Many of them are wives and daughters of donors. One or two of the ladies are also pregnant. These are Humanist inspired works. The architecture reflects the familiar horizontality so characteristic of the Renaissance in Italy.

Justin
February 10, 2007 - 07:55 pm
Claire: Ghirlandaio's egg tempera of "The Old Man and His Son" occurred at the moment in history when experiments in oil with glazes began. There are some wonderful comparisons in this period.

Justin
February 10, 2007 - 08:04 pm
Those Humanists I have known tend not to pray but they do serve in soup kitchens from time to time. They work as volunteers in hospitals and feed and house the homeless. That is one of the reasons they come together. I notice the Unitarian variety tends to do much of this as well as support causes for women in oppressed societies. I don't know about the gossip part. I guess they do a fair share of that.

Mal, You've had some experience in this area. Come in and talk about it.

Malryn
February 10, 2007 - 09:16 pm

The Universalist religion I was raised in in northern Massachusetts was not accepted into the Council of Churches because it was essentially creedless and its members were given the choice of believing or not believing in Hell. Universalists didn't say "hello", the story went, they said "No Hell."

Its liberalism increased when the merger between Universalists and Unitarians took place in 1961 after twenty or more years of discussion.

Of course, Universalists and Unitarians, or now the UUA as they're called, are humanists and always were. My training in Sunday School consisted of study of many other kinds of religion and strong suggestions that, since we believed in the Brotherhood of Man, we should serve mankind, as represented by all religions or no religion, to the best of our ability throughout our lives.

Well, Universalist-Unitarians have as many human failings and differences as people of any other religion, and not everyone has the urge to work in soup kitchens or to serve mankind.

The religious training, so-called, that I received early in my life has almost undone me. I practiced what the religion preached from the time I was a child. More often than not I'd give my last nickel or the shirt off my back to someone in a worse plight than I was. This attitude of mine, which is not typical, really, as I think about it, is why at almost 79 I don't have a penny in the bank and am on food stamps and Medicaid. Even so, I still have to restrain myself from trying to help people who appear to be more needy than I am. My very liberal church (for the time) paid a lot of attention to what Jesus and other prophets taught. Early on I noticed similarities.

Mal

Éloïse De Pelteau
February 11, 2007 - 04:40 am
Mal, you are a generous woman and you have shown it with the time you have given to WREX for years. Do you realize how lucky you are that your mind is so sharp. I don't know why in a Democracy there can be so many poor people, especially the elderly.

robert b. iadeluca
February 11, 2007 - 10:30 am
"Humanism influenced art last because it appealed rather to intellect than to sense.

"The chief patron of art was still the church and the chief purpose of art was still to convey the Christian story to the letterless and to adorn the house of God. The Virgin and her Child, the suffering and crucified Christ, the prophets, Apostles, Fathers, and saints remained the necessary subjects of sculpture and painting even of the minor arts.

"Gradually, however, the humanists taught the Italians a more sensual sense of beauty. A frank admiration for the healthy human body -- male or female, prferably nude -- permeated the educated classes.

"The reaffirmation of life in Renaissance literature, as against the medieval contemplation of another world, gave art a secret secular leaning. By finding Italian Aphrodites to pose as Virgins and Italian Apollos to serve as Sebastians, the painters of Lorenzo's age, and later, introduced pagan motives into Christian art.

"In the sixteenth century -- when secular princes rivaled ecclesiastics in financing artists -- Venus and Ariadne, Daphne and Diana, the Muses and the Graces challengd the rule of the Virgin, but Mary the modest mother continued her wholesome dominance to the end of Renaissance art."

Your comments, please?

Robby

Bubble
February 11, 2007 - 11:11 am
I was reading an article on art and paintings in ancient prehistoric caves. It made me think on how the focus of the first humans was on depicting animals. Much later it changed to depicting the human body, the male and female shapes. Is it that we are now self-centered?

robert b. iadeluca
February 11, 2007 - 01:35 pm
Is self-centered bad? Don't we improve (civilize?) ourselves by examining ourselves?

Robby

Justin
February 11, 2007 - 01:36 pm
From this point in time Humanism will be an influence in art, especially in painting and sculpture.Initially, religious iconography with more human forms and movement will dominate. We saw that with the painter Giotto as the Trecento dawned. The trend will continue in sculpture as Donatello brings his human forms that are "caught in the act" to fruition. Eventually, in the Seicento, Caravaggio will bring "peasants with dirty feet" to worship at the feet of a very human Madonna and genre scenes will dominate the iconography of more secular paintings and sculpture. .

Justin
February 11, 2007 - 01:45 pm
The idea that "Nulla salus exra ecclesiam" was still exceptionally strong in the Renaissance but Humanism and the influence of Greek literature made one realize that while salvation outside the church was not possible, salvation was a church invention and therefore not relevant in one's future.

3kings
February 11, 2007 - 03:28 pm
Frankly, as a non artist, I'm indifferent to the 'Arts'.I think their importance in the "SoC" is desperately overblown. Art, like cosmetics, is just skin deep, and gives little clue to the state of civilisation of a Society.

Also incidental to whether a group is civilised or not, is their scientific and mathematical understanding. This, from a personal point of view is more than a disappointment, because trying to understand the physics and mathematics of the world is of great interest to me.

The true measure of a "Civilisation" is the readiness of its population to adhere to the common underlying bases of the great Moral Philosophies of the world.

Each individual builds or unbuilds a 'civilised society' by his/her own daily acts or omissions. I am acutely aware of my own incompetence in this matter, and wish that I had the fortitude to behave always as a Christian, in my private and public life.

It is in these matters that our civilisation will be measured in the future, not by our Art or Science.. ==== Trevor

Traude S
February 11, 2007 - 03:31 pm
Isn't there a difference between self-centered (egocentric, self-absorbed) and self-examining ?

TREVOR, we posted within minutes of each other. I just added the posts to which I was referring.

ROBBY, so do we become "civilized" by examining ourselves? Is that all it takes ?

robert b. iadeluca
February 11, 2007 - 04:28 pm
Isn't what we are doing here examining ourselves? Isn't the five years we have been examining others nothing more than examining ourselves? Is it possible that each of us is perhaps just a smidgeon more civilized from having gone through these volumes?

Robby

EllieC1113
February 11, 2007 - 05:41 pm
I am enjoying the discussion here. I like the ideas of self-awareness and self-interest. I totally agree with what Trevor said: "The true measure of a 'Civilisation' is the readiness of its population to adhere to the common underlying bases of the great Moral Philosophies of the world." I believe that the great moral philosophies of the world have much in common. I also believe that when people are very generous, they often get taken advantage of by other people who are less mature and kind. I think it was a great Jewish moral philosopher, Hillel, who said "If I am not for myself, then who will be? If I am only for myself, then what am I? And If not now, when." I got a book when I was on vacation at a used bookstore, for $1. "I and Thou," by Martin Buber. It had amazing food for thought on these topics.

Eleanor

JoanK
February 11, 2007 - 05:48 pm
ROBBY: I certainly hope so -- I for one need all the help I can get.

To jump in late to a past argument, of coarse Durant is biased. All humans are biased: we see the world through the lens of our own experiences and ideas. If we didn't read anyone biased, we'd never read anyone. We are sophisticated enough readers to see (at least some) of the biases and allow for them.

One reason for reading things by a lot of writers is just to see things through these various biases, or ways of looking at things, and hence hopefully broaden our own viewpoint. There is a saying "A fish swimming in the water cannot see the water". Only by leaving the water and "looking back" at where we were can we see our "water".

Fifi le Beau
February 11, 2007 - 05:50 pm
Does the church still commission artists for paintings? Aren't they already awash in art, sculpture, and manuscripts?

The church's treatment of Greek manuscripts accumulated over the years , described by Boccaccio at Monte Cassino as rotting in dust, or mutilated to make psalters or amulets.

The price of art having risen to new heights, has probably changed the church storage habits. Andrew Mellon paid eight hundred and thirty-six thousand dollars for Raphael's 'Niccolini Cowper Madonna" in 1928, and Mellon's collection is the foundation of the National Gallery, in Washington.

I have no idea what the price of church related art would bring today, but secular artists like Picasso, Klimt, and Pollock have brought up to a hundred and forty million dollars recently.

Justin, what is the market for religious art of the Renaissance? Since there were private commissions for religious painting it stands to reason there are art works on the market.

I know nothing about art other than what I like or don't like, but I do have an art story.

Fifi

Justin
February 11, 2007 - 08:17 pm
When we leave the cinquecento with Bellini,Titian, and Tintoretto we pretty much leave religious art to a few painters and sculptors. In the first quarter of the Seicento Caravaggio and Rubens contribute religious art. Rembrandt occasionally offers a piece but that is the end of it. Bernini painted a little and sculpted a lot for the church. But the neo classical and Romantic periods that followed are almost devoid of religious works of any merit. In our own time Marc Chagall has provided some religious iconography.

The market for religious work is largely museum based. They want to fill in holes in their collections. When a work enters a museum collection it is cataloged and it disappears from the market. If one comes up at Christies or Butterfields a museum will hire professional bidders and snare a donor to cover the freight. Occasionally a Rembrandt appears and regardless of subject matter it commands a high price. .

Justin
February 11, 2007 - 08:47 pm
Trevor: Durant says that four elements constitute civilization-economic provision, political organization, moral traditions, and pursuit of knowledge and the arts. He doesn't say much about the mix but you seem to be saying that small portions of food and shelter, minimum political organization, and little knowledge of art and science is required for a society to be civilized. A large heaping of moral tradition is essential. Is the rule of Law adequate for a moral tradition or must one have a religious tradition as well?.

Bubble
February 12, 2007 - 01:55 am
"Isn't what we are doing here examining ourselves? Isn't the five years we have been examining others nothing more than examining ourselves? Is it possible that each of us is perhaps just a smidgeon more civilized from having gone through these volumes?"

#143 I am not sure at all that it makes us more civilized. More knowledgeable, yes. It makes us think more, compare. But does it influence the way we live, talk, act? Not noticeably I believe, if at all.

robert b. iadeluca
February 12, 2007 - 05:02 am
Architecture: The Age of Brunellesco

Éloïse De Pelteau
February 12, 2007 - 05:05 am
DEFINITION OF CIVILIZATION

"Civilization: is the tangible expression of a communal understanding

It is expressed by Language by citizens who would mold it by conversation.

A Community: being that group of people sharing a common understanding who reveal themselves by using the same language, manners, customs and law…Words are the currency of thought.

So the nature of the literature published by a community must reflect the nature of that community's understanding. Hence the history of a community's literature must be the history of that community's understanding.

Conversation is:— the daily expression and exchange of individual opinions; a mechanism that refines communal understanding by promoting popular, while suppressing unpopular, notions. That is, all those ideas which match common feelings of right and wrong, will be repeated and magnified into reasons to act, while those which receive little or no support will inevitably be ignored; which makes conversation the ideas filter, or the mind, of the community."


Then civilization only means the standards established by people who understand each other using the same language? Or a language having the same root? (Latin and Greek)

Our Western definition of civilization is not necessarily understood in the same manner by people ignorant or indifferent of our standards because they have followed their own laws written down in their holy book centuries before and think we are the ones who are uncivilized.

I understand the word civilization differently now after reading that article. I might not be more civilized, but I have more knowledge, as you say Bubble.

robert b. iadeluca
February 12, 2007 - 05:11 am
"Antonio Filarete in 1450 cried:-'Cursed be the man who invented this wretched Gothic architecture! Only a barbarous people could have brought it to Italy.'

"Those walls of glass hardly suited the sun of Italy. Those flying buttresses -- though at Notre Dame de Paris they had been forged into a frame of beauty, like fountain jets petrified in their flow -- seemed to the South unsightly scaffoldings left by builders who had failed to give their structures a self contained stability.

"The Gothic style of pointed arch and soaring vault had well expressed the aspirations of tender spirits turning from the laborious soil to the solacing ksky. But men new dowered with wealth and ease wished now to beautify life, not to escape or malign it.

"Earth would be heaven and they themselves would be gods."

Robby

BaBi
February 12, 2007 - 05:28 am
It is very true that the 'fish' can only see the water after getting out of it. So much of the events of my life I only understood much later, after retrospection and introspection.

The same is true of history. With, one hopes, accurate facts, only perspective can give one a true picture of root causes and outcomes. And only this kind of understanding can give one a basis for clearer viewing of current events.

Babi

Scrawler
February 12, 2007 - 09:23 am
I don't know that what we discuss is not necessarily a self-examination, but rather an examination of the world around us. After all if we only did a self-examination we would probably get only a small view of the world, but when we go outside of ourselves that's when the world becomes much larger and I think that through discussions like this we begin to understand our relation to a larger world. I also believe that we need both art and science and everything inbetween in harmony in order to understand this larger world.

Justin
February 12, 2007 - 01:35 pm
I agree with you Robby. We have been engaged in self examination. We read, think, and react. That process, and the result of that process, is what we are. We are also flesh and bone but primarily we are what we think at any given moment. We wear identifiers which are an expression of our thought process. We are Americans or Israelis or Canadians. We are conservatives, liberals, or a mix. We are Catholic, evangelical, or nonreligious. We are "sports" fans.

winsum
February 12, 2007 - 02:01 pm
Your post was the most interesting one I've read yet and here is the Donatello sculpture . Is it the same person? It's in the right place. http://www.mega.it/min/scroce/xuz.jpg

I really wish our leader had not edited out all the iteresting things that are in here including the art.

claire

winsum
February 12, 2007 - 02:16 pm
Animals run in herds and packs. Elephants communicate through the soles of their feet. In each case common rules prevail. Is this the basis of civilization or is there something else that we as humans bring to it. Possilby the CHOICE that we exercise in adhering to the RULES. Are we more civilized for reading about the past? Perhaps we do see how far we have advanced in being civilized and how far we have yet to go if the moral expectations which we attach are to be achieved.

A common morality is not enough so what else is there besides the growth of technology and science. Did our trip to the moon make us more civilized?

Other cultures have different moral requirements than we in the West who value life. They are civilized too.

Sometimes I wonder about the schism in our own USA where we struggle over the use of the death penalty which other countries don't have. Which country is more civilized? Is A religous country more civilized than one which is more secular?

It's an open question. What is civilization.

Claire

robert b. iadeluca
February 13, 2007 - 06:12 am
"The architecture of the Italian Renaissance was not basically a revolt against Gothic, for Gothic had never conquered Italy.

"Every kind of style and influence spoke its piece in the experiments of the fourteenth and fifteenth centuries:-the heavy columns and round arches of Lombard Romanesque -- the Greek cross of some ground plans -- the Byzantine pendentive and dome -- the stately grace of campaniles echoing Moslem minarets -- the slender columns of Tuscan cloisters remembering mosque or classic porticoes -- the beamed ceilings of England and Germany -- the groined vault and ogive and tracery of Gothic -- the harmonious majesty of Roman facades -- and, above all, the simple strength of the basilican nave flanked by its supporting aisles.

"All these, in Italy, were mingling fruitfully when the humanists turned architectural vision to the ruins of Rome. Then the shattered colonnades of the Forum, rising through the medieval mist, seemed to Italian eyes more beautiful than the Byzantine bizarries of Venice, the somber majesty of Chartres, the fragile audacity of Beauvais, or the mystic reaches of Amiens' vault.

"To build again with columns finely turned, firmly mortised into massive plinths, gayly crowned with flowering capitals, and bound to stability by imperturbable architraves -- this became, by the groping emergence of the buried but living past, the dream and passion of men like Brunellesco, Alberti, Michelozzo, Michelangelo, and Raphael."

Lots of art to discuss here.

Robby

Malryn
February 13, 2007 - 07:20 am

FLORENCE ARCHITECTURE

The Duomo: Brunelleschi's cupola

Brunelleschi's dome

robert b. iadeluca
February 13, 2007 - 07:51 am
Those are great links, Mal!! I hope everyone is clicking on the photos so as to get enlarged pictures.

Robby

winsum
February 13, 2007 - 09:56 am
wow !!!

claire


edit: I must be typical. this from the article on reactions to the duomo etal.

" As soon as the Americans see the Cathedral, they are always full of enthusiasm, which they express with plenty of "WOW"s, "

Fifi le Beau
February 13, 2007 - 12:20 pm
Thanks Mal for the links on Florence architecture. I was especially enjoying the beautiful pictures, and looked for Poggio's statue on the facade at Santa Croce, until I remembered he is now inside as one of the twelve apostles.

While enjoying all the architecture of Florence, the link at the bottom spoke volumes about where the heart of Italy lies today. If you want to bring in a crowd, forget the cathedrals, bring on the Soccer.

This photo of the 'Historical Soccer Match' at the bottom of the page looks more like current events than history, but it was fun to see the pomp and circumstance turn out for an obvious big game for the home team.

Italy is a civilized country, they have turned from mortal combat and myth to play time.

http://www.uky.edu/~allaire/Florence/Luglio-2.jpg

Fifi

Malryn
February 13, 2007 - 03:46 pm

In case you didn't see this:
Machines used to make Brunelleschi's dome


More about the machines

A brief tour of the Duomo

JoanK
February 13, 2007 - 05:18 pm
For those who haven't read it, I heartily recommend the book "Brunnelleschi's Dome". it's a fascinating story. People are still not entirely sure why it works, although there are many theories.

bluebird24
February 13, 2007 - 05:52 pm
http://www.greatbuildings.com/types/styles/renaissance.html

I like many here:) Ducal Palace

winsum
February 13, 2007 - 06:57 pm
I liked the horse drawn hoist. The hose provided the initial power and a series of gears booted it up to where it could operate like a balance and pull up really heavy materials. I'm amazed I could understand it. NOt complicated just efficient with the help of the horse. Now we would probably use some kind of engine but do you think the same principles would apply? fascinating.

claire

gaj
February 13, 2007 - 10:38 pm
I am a bit confused about dates. The Elizabethan/English Renaissance occurred (1485-1603). What is the official dates for the Italian Renaissance? Is it (1330 to 1500)or (1350 to 1500) or (1420-1600)?? Does the dating depend on which art painting,sculpture,literature, artecture? Are the families important in the dating? How is it decided?

Justin
February 13, 2007 - 11:47 pm
Durant's Italian Renaissance Dates.

Proto Renaissance-1300 to 1377 Florentine Renaissance 1378 to 1534 The Italian Period 1378 to 1534 The Roman Renaissance 1378 to 1521 Finale 1534 to 1576

Many art historians date the Italian Proto-Renaissance from about 1200 to 1417. That is done to include Duccio, Cimabue, and Giotto as well as Martini and Lorenzetti. Masaccio, Ghiberti, Donatello and Bruneleschi launch the full flower.

There was in addition a Renaissance in the North (Flanders,the Netherlands, Belgium, and France.) which occurred somewhat later. It started with the Limbourg brothers and Van Eyck in about 1425 and ended in Spain with El Greco about 1600..

The English advance was largely in literature and more in the Baroque period than in what is generally considered as Renaissance. Spencer, Marlowe, Shakespeare, Donne, Johnson, Jones, Milton, Dryden Wren were all characteristic of this period as were Newton, Locke , Harvey etc. The range in dates is from 1550 to 1650. .

Mallylee
February 14, 2007 - 02:06 am
I think thta when we talk of individuals being civilised ,or uncivilised, we are not describing them but evaluating their conduct.

When we talk about a society being civilised we mean that it has a centralised and complex administration; this being a descriptive meaning of 'civilised'.

I dont feel that I want to comment on whether or not I am more civilised in the first sense. If I am, I think it is becuase of the civil tone of this discussion board and not the content, or the writings of Durant.

robert b. iadeluca
February 14, 2007 - 06:09 am
"Like so many artists of the Italian Renaissance, Filippo Brunellesco began as a goldsmith.

"He graduated into sculpture and for a time centered into friendly rivalry with Donatello. He competed with him and Ghiberri for a commission to sculpture the bronze doors of the Florentine Baptistery. When he saw Ghiberri's sketches he pronounced them superior to his own and with Donatello he left Florence to study perspective and design in Rome.

"He was fascinated by the ancient and medieval architecture there. He measured the major buildings in all their elements. He marveled above all at the dome of Agrippa's Pantheon, 141 feet wide. He conceived the idea of crowning with such a dome the unfinished cathedral of Santa Maria del Fiore in the city of his birth.

"He returned to Florence in time to take part in a conference of architects and engineers on the problem of roofing the cathedral's octagonal choir, 138 1/2 feet across. Filippo proposed a dome but the expansive pressure that so immense a cupola would exert upon walls unsupported by external buttresses or internal beams seemed to the conferees a forbidding obstacle.

"All the world knows the story of Brunellesco's egg:--How he challenged the other artists to make an egg stand on end and, after all the rest had failed, himself succeeded by pressing the blunt and empty end down upon the table. When they protested that they could have done the same, he answered that they would make similar claims after he had domed the cathedral. He received the commission.

"For fourteen years he labored intermittently at the task, fighting a thousand tribulations, raising the cupola precariously 133 feet above the summit of its supporting walls. At last it was finished and stood firm. All the city gloried in it as the first major achievement -- and with one exception the boldest -- in the architecture of the Renaissance. When Michelangelo, a century later, planned the dome of St. Peter's and was told that he had an opportunity to surpass Brunellescos, he answered:-'I will make a sister dome, larger, but not more beautiful.'

"The lordly colorful cupola still dominates, for leagues around, the panorama of a red roofed Florence nestling lke a bed of roses in the lap of the Tuscan hills."

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
February 14, 2007 - 07:14 am
"When Michelangelo, a century later, planned the dome of St. Peter's and was told that he had an opportunity to surpass Brunellescos, he answered:-'I will make a sister dome, larger, but not more beautiful.'" You can recognize a real genius by his humility.

I have seen both domes and to me Florence's is more beautiful perhaps because of its color. St Peter's cathedral filled me with a sense of awe that is hard to describe.

Malryn
February 14, 2007 - 09:51 am

Baptistry competition

Baptistry at Florence

North doors. Click to enlarge

Eastern door

BaBi
February 14, 2007 - 04:47 pm
Spencer, Marlowe, Shakespeare, Donne, Johnson, Jones, Milton, Dryden Wren were all characteristic of this period as were Newton, Locke , Harvey etc...

Is it my imagination, or do periods full of great literature, or art, or advances in science, come in waves? It's as though these great writers, artists or scientists agreed to come in together, to support and motivate and challenge one another. And the waves are linked by the rare innovators who daringly open the doors to new ideas.

Babi

Justin
February 14, 2007 - 04:48 pm
The doors of the Baptistry by Ghiberti are available in many places in the world other than Florence. The doors are bronze cast and a copy can be found on Grace Cathedral in San Francisco. It is possible a copy of the doors may be found in New York City on St John the Divine or on St Patrick's. Ellie should be able to tell us. In Florence, at any given moment, one may expect a crowd around the doors however, the doors at Grace Cathedral go unobserved most of the time. They are just doors even though they are a bronze cast replica of the Del Fiore Baptistry. I suppose tourists are tourists. They are expected to look in Florence but would not stop for a moment to look at the Grace doors as they pass.

Justin
February 14, 2007 - 05:07 pm
Babi: Interesting thought. I think you have something. Giotto comes on the scene and introduces reality and naturalness, both in a primitive way but a significant innovation none the less.He is followed by Masaccio who extends the concept with a new technique because that is what is obviously missing from Giotto's work.Then related arts try to adopt the new ideas.

Donatello achieves volume and motion to bring reality to sculpture. Dante does a "one off" in the Divine Comedy by writing in the vernacular. Even the Popes try for a little reality in their barren lives.

A similar case can be made for science. Newton and Leibnitz gave us the calculus. They used it to solve one problem and others used it to probe related frontiers.

bluebird24
February 14, 2007 - 06:03 pm
Malyrn thank you for Bapistry of Florence page! I love it:)

JoanK
February 14, 2007 - 07:38 pm
Hey, history buffs, come explore another period of history. A book about the Dutch settlement of Manhattan. It should be fascinating. When the British captured Manhattan from the Dutch in 1644, all the documents relating to the Dutch settlement were "lost" -- stuck away somewhere. Now they are being translated, and a whole new chapter of US history is opening up..

Join the discussion, proposed for March 15:

ISLAND AT THE CENTER OF THE WORLD

robert b. iadeluca
February 15, 2007 - 05:45 am
Comments about Post 170?

Robby

Traude S
February 15, 2007 - 12:00 pm
ROBBY, the material is already familiar to those who participated in the 2005 discussion of Ross King's Brunelleschi's Dome : How a Renaissance Genius Reinvented Architecture, which can be found in the B&L Archives.

winsum
February 15, 2007 - 01:30 pm
I wish I had been in that discussion but I have already researched as much as I could find on this artist here on the web. Isn't it wonderful? his importance as an inventor is general and not necessarily as the designer of the DOME. This discussion comes to late to the arts of the renaissance and deals with them too lightly. . . claire

Justin
February 15, 2007 - 02:07 pm
The issues raised by the wool merchant's advisory committee when interviewing Brunelleschi were not trivial. The question of hoop stress or lateral thrust on a drum when a dome of great weight is laid upon it is significant. Several test models had failed.

The technique finally adopted by Brunelleschi is similar to one used in Constantinople to retrofit the great dome of Santa Sophia following an earthquake in 550 CE. I don't know that Brunelleschi ever saw Santa Sophia. What was this great technique?

It may be compared to the role of barrel hoops. Barrel hoops are used to prevent the staves of a barrel from separating when the contents of the barrel put a lateral internal thrust upon the sides. Brunelleschi constructed his hoops with sandstone and iron links forming a chain and then a double wall of chain connected by tranverse chestnut beams. It is simply one hoop laid inside the other and secured with truncated spokes. It is for this reason the drum and dome of del Fiore resists earthquake damage. But more importantly, why the weight of a dome of 120 feet in diameter at the base is supported on a drum resisting its lateral thrust.

Trevor, is that art work with significant engineering precision of interest to you?

Malryn
February 15, 2007 - 02:28 pm

Beautiful explanationn of an engineering marvel, JUSTIN. It seems to me that I have in my files some pictures of a small dome built as Brunelleschi built his. If I can find them, I'll post a link.

Mal

Malryn
February 15, 2007 - 02:58 pm

Scroll down to see Brunelleschi's models

Justin
February 15, 2007 - 04:42 pm
For many many years the wool merchants of Florence rejected models for the dome of the Duomo because the designers either relied on exterior buttressing or if none then an inadequate base to support the dome. Brunelleschi convinced the wool merchants he could do it with out exterior buttressing however, when it came to the design of the lantern he unabashedly added exterior buttressing.

robert b. iadeluca
February 15, 2007 - 05:43 pm
"The merchant aristocracy was raising proud civic halls and palaces.

"In 1376 the Signory commissioned Benci di Cione and Simone di Francesco Talenti to build a portico opposite the Palazzo Vecchio as a rostrum for governmental oratory. In the sixteenth century it came to be known as the Loggia dei Lanzi from the German lancers that Duke Cosimo stationed there.

"The most magnificent private palace in Florence was built for the banker Luca Pitti by Luca Fancelli from plans made by Brunellesco nineteen years before. Pitti was almost as rich as Cosimo but not so wisely modest. He contested Cosimo's power and drew from him some sharp counsel:-'You strive towad the indefinite, I toward the definite. You plant your ladder in the air. I place mine on the ground. It seems to me but just and natural that I should desire the honor and reputation of my house to surpass yours. Let us therefore do like two big dogs, which sniff at one another where they meet, show their teeth, and then go their separate ways. You will attend to your affairs. I to mine.'

"Pitti continued to plot. After Cosimo's death he conspired to displace Piero de' Medici from power. He committed the only crime universally condemned in the Renaissance -- he failed.

"He was banished and ruined and his palace remained unfinished for a century."

Robby

bluebird24
February 15, 2007 - 05:51 pm
http://www.yourwaytoflorence.com/db/musei/pitti.htm

Traude S
February 15, 2007 - 06:56 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palazzo_Pitti

Fifi le Beau
February 15, 2007 - 09:55 pm
When did banishment go out of style? It seemed to be popular in Italy at that time, and almost all the men we have read about that lost an argument, were at one time or another banished from the city.

It might be a good idea to bring it back, especially in the seat of power. I'll make a list.

It is my turn to come up with a new game for our family reunion in June. I'll call it 'Banishment'.

Fifi

Justin
February 15, 2007 - 11:11 pm
Just as Palazzo Vecchia, and the Medici Ricordia are today museums so too is the Pitti Palazzo. I don't know the total number of works housed in the Pitti but the number must be very great. There are thirty plus rooms on the piano devoted to late Renaissance and Baroque and thirty rooms on the second floor devoted to modern art. The works are hung three deep. There is just too much to take in. One must treat the collection selectively. An afternoon devoted to Titian would be pleasant.His work can be found in several rooms. An afternoon with representatives of the Baroque might be pleasant. Many tourists who visit the Pitti start with a recording in the Palatina rooms and push their way through to the thirtieth room two hours later, thoroughly exhausted and with little awareness of what they have seen. The second floor rooms are almost always much less crowded and comfortable viewing is possible.

There is only one other museum in the world that I know of that exhibits (stores) paintings as does the Pitti. That one is the Barnes in Merian, Pa. The Barnes hangs everything together and six high. A Renaissance work can be found hanging next to a Picasso.

3kings
February 16, 2007 - 12:29 am
Justin For my part, I admire Brunelleschi's dome for its solution of a problem in physics, rather than as an object of art. That and other domes, Leonardo's machines, ( though never physically built ) and perhaps above all, Copernicus' heliocentric theory, are the great human achievements of the Italian Renaissance period.

Regrettably, such things are often overlooked in our histories, and ignored by those who have eyes only for the visual arts. Perhaps, because of this imbalance, Durant acknowledges the very little attention given to science, in a few lines at the bottom of page 529, and top of page 530. To me, a physical theory, even if flawed, is worth a thousand strokes of a painters brush.

Ah well, it takes all sorts to make a world. LOL ++Trevor

robert b. iadeluca
February 16, 2007 - 05:31 am
Trevor:-As we move into sculpture, you might help us to understand the "physical theory" of sculpting.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 16, 2007 - 05:32 am
Sculpture

robert b. iadeluca
February 16, 2007 - 05:40 am
"The imitation of classic forms was more thorough in sculpture than in architecture.

"The sight and study of Roman ruins and the occasional recovery of some Roman masterpiece stirred the sculptors of Italy to an emulative ecstasy.

"When the Hermaphrodite that now lies in the Borghese Gallery -- with its neutral back modestly turned to the spectator -- was found in the vineyard of San Celso, Ghiberti wrote of it:-'No tongue could describe the learning and art displayed in it or do justice to its masterly style.' The perfection of such works, he said, eluded the eye and could be appreciated only by passing the hand over the marble surface and curves.

"As these exhumed relics grew in number and familiarity, the Italian mind slowly accustomed itself to the nude in art. The study of anatomy became as much at home in artists' botteghe as in medical halls. Soon nude models were used without fear and without reproach.

So stimulated, sculpture graduated from subservience to architecture and from stone to stucco reliefs to statues of bronze or marble in the round."

Your comments, please?

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
February 16, 2007 - 08:19 am
Justin, I thoroughly enjoy your posts about art, it is like auditing an art history course in University. Thank you for sharing your vast knowledge. These last days in S of C have been exhalirating and Mal your last link is absolutely stunning, thank you for taking the time to post these so we can enjoy it too.

Scrawler
February 16, 2007 - 10:38 am
As we were discussing Bunelleschi and his dome I remembered seeing the above DVD on the History Channel not to long ago.

"The Renaissance's Old Masters were the greatest military and civil engineers of the time.

Governments may be established, countries may be born, but empires are built.

More than painted ceilings and enigmatic smiles, the Renaissance was the most revived period of empire-building in history.

In the late 15th and 16th centuries, continually shifting alliances among Italy's city-states against foreign aggression gelled into stable republics. Enriched by trade and mercantile endeavors, these new states revitalized their cities and built on an epic level not witnessed since Rome's heyday.

The Renaissance was in many respects an arms race, with the battle fought on all fronts: artistic, commercial, military, and diplomatic. The victors boasted the most modern and the richest treasuries, and the greatest works of art and architecture..." ~ Engineering an Empire: Da Vinci's World DVD

If I remember correctly, part of the program showed how Brunelleschi designed and built his dome.

JoanK
February 16, 2007 - 12:58 pm
TREVOR: "To me, a physical theory, even if flawed, is worth a thousand strokes of a painters brush". Why do we have to exchange one for the other? I don't see it as a compitition: we can have both!

Justin
February 16, 2007 - 02:17 pm
I am surprised by Durant's remarks about artist's access to anatomy. Yes, the artist was interested in anatomy but his access was restricted. There were laws preventing one from desecrating (opening) dead bodies. Autopsy had to wait for several more centuries to become a reality. Sub rosa bodies were stolen, (prisoner bodies, and unclaimed at the morgue)and used to study anatomy and physiology. Artists occasionally were allowed to watch such disections. Female bodies were particularly difficult to obtain for this work.

Some artists were particularly deprived of access to female forms. Michelangelo was one of those artists. He was homosexual as well as with out access to unlawful disections. There were rules drawn mostly from the Greek and Roman recoveries to guide the shape of sculptured bodies. Michelangelo's tomb sculptures of women are male shapes with what appear to be grapefruit halves stuck on the chest.

Trevor: There is an exhibit available of working models of many of Leonardo's machines. I once arranged for the exhibit to be displayed at our local museum. It had been on tv several times. I am not sure about implementation. I have a recollection of trebuchet type mechanisms and some tank like devices being employed at the Battle of Tarranto.

Justin
February 16, 2007 - 02:23 pm
Eloise: Thank you for your expression of appreciation. Don't encourage me too much or I will be unbearable.

BaBi
February 16, 2007 - 02:29 pm
"He committed the only crime universally condemned in the Renaissance -- he failed."

Isn't that still a rule of thumb today, in many ways? The 'bottom line' in judging someones success and merit in many arenas? While all too often the successful, but criminal, man is respected and accepted?

Much more fun to consider sculpture. I was shocked to learn the magnificent Michelangelo couldn't properly sculpt a female figure. Really?

Babi

robert b. iadeluca
February 16, 2007 - 04:38 pm
"It was in relief that sculpture won its first and most famous triumph in the Florence of Cosimo's time.

"The ugly striated Baptistery that fronted the cathedral could only be redeemed by incidental ornament. Iacopo Torriti had adorned the tribune. And Andrea Tafi the cupola, with crowded mosaics. Andrea Pisano had molded a double bronze portal for the south facade.

"Now the Florentine Signory, in conjunction with the Guild of Wool Merchants and to persuade the Deity to end a plague, voted a generous sum to provide the Baptistery with a bronze door for the north side.

"A competition was opened. All the artists of Italy were invited to submit designs. The most successful -- Brunellesco, Incopo della Quercia, Lorenzo Ghiberti, and a few others -- were commissioned and paid to cast in bronze a sample panel showing the acrifice of Isaac by Abraham.

"A year later the completed panels were submitted to thirty-four judges -- sculptors, painters, and goldsmiths. It was generally agreed that Ghibertis was the best.

"The youth of twenty-five began the first pair of his famous bronze doors."

Twenty-five years old!

Robby

Fifi le Beau
February 16, 2007 - 05:01 pm
Ghiberti worked for twenty one years on one set of bronze doors for the Baptistery, and then for twenty seven years on the doors for the east side. He had some of the best artists and sculptors in Florence as helpers, so he must have been a perfectionist.

Curiosity sent me looking to see if there is anyone with such dedication working today, and if churches still commission such detailed work.

Imagine the amazement to find Jay Hall Carpenter, sculptor, working for twenty seven years on the National Cathedral. He has done sculpture for many other religious institutions, but we are a young country and perhaps he is our Donatello or Ghiberti.

He started work at the Washington Cathedral when only seventeen years old.

Here is a short bio of his life and work.

http://jayhallcarpenter.com/articles.htm

Fifi

robert b. iadeluca
February 16, 2007 - 05:48 pm
Fifi:-According to your link, Jay Hall Carpenter worked and studied with Frederick Hart, the sculptor, whose widow lives just a half hour or so from my home. He met her when she became his model while he was working on the National Cathedral and she is still so very beautiful. I was at her home when she sponsored a money-raising gathering for disabled children. Click HERE to learn more about Hart.

I read somewhere that he learned from the Italian stonecutters who did not think he could learn their trade but they were wrong and finally brought him into their group.

Robby

Justin
February 16, 2007 - 08:02 pm
Frederick Hart is our Donatello. His works deal with movement and reality.

The Viet Namn Memorial is not the place for an abstract that evokes undirected feelings, thoughts, and emotions. Veteran's and their families looking at the Memorial want to see what Dad looked like in a combat environment. They want to arouse specific feelings, thoughts, and emotions. Veteran's want to look and remember with pride. They can't do that with an abstract.

The contemporary art establishment is at odds with consumers. An abstract gives the artist more joy and satisfaction than it gives consumers. When that disparity is settled art works will again become popular. Today, the patron is a public commission advised by academic artists. Tomorrow the patron will be a consumer who buys without advice and because he relates to the work. Yes, Hart is our Donatello and the rise in the price of his work is an indication consumers are catching on. .

3kings
February 16, 2007 - 08:33 pm
JustinCompetition, to the exclusion of one or the other? Nah... I hope the world continues to enjoy both science and art.

But I would, perhaps smugly, point out that Renaissance art has culminated in Picasso, while that period's science has given us Albert Einstein. The comparison maybe unfair, but perhaps you will agree it is valid ?

Anyway, I have to tell you that I read your posts with great interest, and honestly do, along with Goldsmith's gazing rustics, ...... "Marvel that one small head could carry all he knew ." You, and Mal, are among the two most well read folk I have met, while Robby and others here are not far behind. It has been a pleasure reading these volumes with you. ++ Trevor

Justin
February 16, 2007 - 10:57 pm
There are several war memorials about today that evoke real momories and pride that one was a part of that activity. Washington invites little connection for Veteran's and their families. The VietNamn Memorial carries a real punch. The Lone Sailor is an expression of reality. The Korean War memorial catches the emotions of a patrol in cold wet weather. The Iwo Jima Memorial catches five Marines in the moment of a flag planting. The Three Soldiers has all the dramatic elements of the St. Mark at Or San Michele.

One the other hand the WW11 Memorial in Washington invites little connection for veterans and their families and for future generations it offers the knowledge that the war was a global activity. It lists , as I recall, all the battles in each theatre of operation but fails to personalize the message.

The Lincoln Memorial has all the power of Michelangelo's Moses at St Paul's Outside the Wall. We can see the man and relate to him. He looks as we look. He is one of us who stood firm when it was necessary.

It might be interesting to see these works side by side.

Justin
February 16, 2007 - 11:07 pm
Trevor: I understand the comparison you make. You imply that Picasso is somehow less than Renaissance painters because he did something different which is not always clearly understood today.

Art and science depend on experiment to advance. Picasso's breakdown of composition was not as significant as Einstein's Theory of Relativity but if one measures the newness of the ideas the cup must go to Picasso. Let me explain.

Einstein had Max Planck and Isaac Newton to expand upon. Picasso had no prior base to alter. He was alone. The Cubist movement he founded with an experiment brought us something new and different. If Raphael had painted a portrait on plate glass, dropped it, and reassembled it in rough order, one would have one expression of Cubism.The idea that we are more than what appears on the surface and that elemental parts can be made to show that is a big step forward.

Malryn
February 17, 2007 - 06:26 am

Oh, sometimes I just love you, JUSTIN. You, too, TREVOR, for stimulating talk like this.

Max Planck and others were dinnertable conversation while I was married to that budding scientist I went to high school with. Scientifically, I followed him every step of the way from Haverhill High School to a University of Maryland Ph.D. to post-doctoral work in Cryogenic Physics at Duke. Good thing I did. If I hadn't I wouldn't have known anything about science, probably; didn't understand the language, for one thing. For another, I was afraid of its mysteries. Not afraid of the scientists, though. I remember one Nobel Prize winner (Physics) who sat beside me at an informal dinner with friends. He might have been brainy in science, but he surely was a flirt. Maybe he wasn't so brainy, after all. Maybe he got lucky and had a successful "run". I've known a lot of scientists like that.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
February 17, 2007 - 06:36 am
As a WWII veteran, I've had no desire to visit the WWII Memorial although it is just a few miles away from where I live. I like a memorial that has a meaning and I had pushed for a hospital, for example, that would have the WWII name on it and would in appearance and methods point regularly to that so-called "good war."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 17, 2007 - 06:38 am
Donatello

robert b. iadeluca
February 17, 2007 - 06:50 am
"Vasari thought that Donatello had been among the artists chosen to make trial panels for the Baptistery doors but Donatello was only a lad of sixteen at the time.

"The affectionate diminutive by which his friends and posterity named him denoted Donato di Niccolo di Betto Bardi.

"He learned his art only partly in Ghiberti's studio. He soon struck out for himself, passed from the feminine grace of Ghibertian relief to virile statuary in the round, and revolutionized sculpture not so much by adopting classic methods and aims as by his uncompromising fideltiy to nature, and the blunt force of his original personality and style.

"He was an independent spirit as rough as his David, as bold as his St. George.

"His genious did not develop as rapidly as Ghibertis but it reached greater scope and heights.

"When it matured it spawned masterpieces with reckless fertility until Florence was populated with his statues and countries beyond the Alps echoed his fame.

"At twenty two he rivaled Ghiberti by carving for Or San Michele a figure of St. Peter. At twenty seven he surpassed him by adding to that edifice a St. Mark so strong and simple and sincere that Michelangelo said:-'It would have been impossible to reject the Gospel preached by such a straightforward man as this.

"At twenty three Donatello was engaged to carve a David for the cathedral. It was only the first of many Davids made by him. The subject never ceased to please his fancy. Perhaps his finest work is the bronze David ordered by Cosimo, cast in 1430, set up in the courtyard of the Medici palace and now in the Bargello. Here the nude figure in the round made its unblushing debut in Renaissance sculpture -- a body smooth with the firm texture of youthful flesh, a face perhaps too Greek in profile, a helmet certainly too Greek.

"In this instance Donatello put realism aside, indulged his imagination richly, and almost equaled Michelangelos more famous figure of the future Hebrew king."

Robby

Malryn
February 17, 2007 - 07:37 am

St. George, Donatello

St. George by Donatello. (Artchive) Use Image Viewer to enlarge

Malryn
February 17, 2007 - 07:42 am

Images of some of Donatello's work

Malryn
February 17, 2007 - 07:53 am

Article about Donatello's work (Artchive)

Scrawler
February 17, 2007 - 08:51 am
I happen to like Cubism. I have several posters around my house and each time I look at one of them they give me another viewpoint of the art. Which brings up the question when we look at sculpture what are we really seeing? Is it a real moment frozen in marble or is it really the emotion that we feel when we look at it that sparks our imaginations.

robert b. iadeluca
February 17, 2007 - 09:03 am
To the unitiated, just what is SCULPTURE?

Robby

BaBi
February 17, 2007 - 09:07 am
Oh, dear. Please don't get irate, all you Donatello enthusiasts, but I perceive St. George as distinctly weak-chinned, and not at all the robust figure I was expecting. I also took a look at his Jeremiah. Far from my idea of an abrasive, 'in-your-face' Jewish prophet, I fear.

Jay Carpenter, however, I was delighted to learn about. I immediately fell in love with his Jim Henson Memorial. It was wonderful!

Babi

robert b. iadeluca
February 17, 2007 - 09:10 am
OTHER DEFINITIONS of Sculpture.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 17, 2007 - 09:19 am
I mentioned earlier about my visit to Frederick Hart's home where his widow was a gracious host. The whole inside of his house has examples of his work, not to mention the spacious grounds. Justin has called him "today's Donatello." Here are numerous examples of his BRONZE SCULPTURES. Be sure to click on them for larger images.

Robby

BaBi
February 17, 2007 - 09:30 am
ROBBY, these sculptures are magnificent! Thank you so much for introducing me to Frederick Hart. It's times like these that I truly wish I were wealthy and could afford such art. I would purchase the Ex Nihil in a second!

Babi

robert b. iadeluca
February 17, 2007 - 09:48 am
This BRIEF BIO about Frederick Hart gives just an idea of him as a person. As a young fellow working on the National Cathedral, he roamed around Dupont Circle in Washington, looking for the right woman to be a model for him. He approached a young woman (Ah! impetuous youth!), introduced himself and asked her to model which of course meant nude modelling. She accepted (Ah! impetuous youth again!). Time passed, they became closer, and eventually married. She is the gracious woman (still very beautiful!) who I met at that fund raising event for disabled children. I roamed around the house and grounds (138 acres) and it all spelled "wealth" but I had to remind myself of his poverty stricken childhood.

He earned it!!

Robby

Bubble
February 17, 2007 - 10:30 am
I loved the one called Union and the study of his wife. Her hands are beautifully done.

Justin
February 17, 2007 - 03:47 pm
So many of Hart's pieces can be described as "natural," the ingredient added by Donatello, that it is hard to select only one as example. The image of his wife is truly superior, as is that of his daughter. The Saints Peter and Paul are "caught in the act" of movement as is Donatello's St Mark. The ancient Greek "Charioteer" is the ancestor of this technique.

Justin
February 17, 2007 - 04:03 pm
The message Donatello conveys when he emphasizes "naturalism" is the idea that the appearance of people does not always match the action. Were you not surprised by the mousy little appearance of Margaret Mitchell after she created Scarlet O'Hara and Rhett Butler. Does Grace Metallius' appearance fit her heroic characters? It is only tv that makes a body to fit an action. Moses did not look like Charleton Heston. I'll wager he looked like the sheriff's deputy in Maybury. Did michelangelo look like his David? His nose had been flattened in a brawl so he lookd like a worn out and well punched boxer. Naturalism is oft times disillusioning.

bluebird24
February 17, 2007 - 06:11 pm
http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/giorgio.vasari/donatell/donatell.htm

click on pictures on left to make them big:)

Justin
February 17, 2007 - 08:30 pm
Where oh where is the Bronze David from the Bargello?

winsum
February 17, 2007 - 09:32 pm
Please do it . . . become unbearable.

winsum
February 17, 2007 - 09:41 pm
this is Donatelo in his later years when he became interested in the inner person as well as appearances. The Hart sculpture are simple, sexual, sensual, slick and I don't like them very much.

so much for an honest opinion.

Fifi le Beau
February 17, 2007 - 09:50 pm
Justin this is not the bronze David, but it is a bronze Hanson. Check out the body builder on the right top of the page for a look at Duane Hanson's work.

Hanson is a realist sculptor who works with models from every walk of life. He dresses his sculpture much of the time, but he shows his talent when the body is the feature.

I saw my first Hanson walking down Worth Ave. in Palm Beach in the late eighties. A crowd was gathered in front of a window at one of the galleries so I stopped to see what the attraction was.

There was a woman sitting in the window in a swim suit posed as if a model. She was so life like that an argument between the viewers had ensued as to whether she was real or a mannequin of some sort. The veins of her hands and arms were barely visible, and the hairs on her arms were a fine blond.

She was on the front page of the Shiny Sheet the next day with an article on the artist Duane Hanson. I have seen others, but none compare with the lady in the window for realism up close.

He sometimes casts in bronze, but other times it's polyester, fiberglass, oil, and bondo.

http://www.cranbrookart.edu/museum/highlights.html#

Fifi

winsum
February 17, 2007 - 09:53 pm
Looks like a woman.

David? Is it to emphasis how small and powerless he is compared to the giant. I think I prefer the Michelangelo bulges.

Many artists were gay in those times. great gays of history

winsum
February 17, 2007 - 10:29 pm
David

Justin
February 17, 2007 - 11:28 pm
Claire: I think you just like mature, well built,men. The Michelangelo David meets that criteria. However, many sixteen year old boys have a feminine appearance. They are gentle even though they act like tough guys. In order to knock off Goliath David had to be big and tough. Well, not so. This boy was a sheep herder who protected his flock with a sling. The more tender the boy the more significant the miracle. Didn't you know?. God was on David's side.

Justin
February 17, 2007 - 11:46 pm
Claire: I agree. Some of Hart's pieces are slick but the Three Soldiers, in my judgement, does not have that quality.The women are poseur rather than natural and that absence inhibits the sensual as well as the sexual. The Saints Peter and Paul have some Donatello qualities however,I do think he missed on the drapes. But even there,the differnce could be due to the quality of the fabric.

Mallylee
February 18, 2007 - 03:47 am
Scrawler #214 This is a most interesting question. Any piece of art perhaps a sculpture, 2D picture, or a feature movie, can be viewed both as emotional or intellectual interpretation, or as historical source i.e. an artefact from its own time and place, imbued with the qualities of the time and place of its making.So both views are correct, it depends on what you want to do with the work of art.

I've just been reading about 'The Scream' by Munch, an enormously popular symbolic painting that was stolen , and then recovered from the thieves,The reportage of the events concerned both the emotional effect of the picture, and the psychological circumstances of Munch when he painted it. So the picture can be assigned these two purposes.

What does Durant usually do? I think that it's the function of the historiographer to use works of art as sources for the historical events being written up.This is relevant of course,to studies of the Bible which can be viewed as either historical(and anthropological) source, or as devotional material.

The link about Donatello's work posted by Malryn shows the writer to be concerned with the sculptures as abstracts forms and as the meanings that Donatello intended, and the writer assumes correctly I am sure we all agree , that these High Renaissance meanings and forms are still relevant to us today.

And by the way, a historiography itself can be historical primary source, when it's viewed as an artefact of its time and place.

robert b. iadeluca
February 18, 2007 - 03:52 am
"Patron and artist grew old together.

"Cosimo took such care of the sclptor that Donatello rarely thought about money. He kept his funds, says Vasari, in a basket suspended from the ceiling of his studio and bade his aides and friends take from it according to their needs without consulting him.

"When Cosimo was dying, he recommended Donatello to the care of his son Piero. Piero gave the old artist a house in the country but Donatello soon returned to Florence preferring his accustomed studio to the sunshine and insects of the countryside. He lived in simplicity and content until the age of eighty.

"All the artists -- nearly all the people -- of Florence joined in the funeral that laid him to rest as he had asked in the crypt of San Lorenzo, beside Cosimo's own tomb.

"He had immeasurably advanced the sculptured art.

"Now and then he poured too much force into his poses and designs. Often he fell short of the finished form that exalts Ghiberti's doors. But his faults were due to his resolve to express not beauty so much as life, not merely a strong and healthy body but a complex character or mental state.

"He developed sculptural portraiture by extending it from the religious to the secular field and by giving his subjects an unprecedented variety, individuality, and power. Overcoming a hundred technical difficulties, he created the first great equestrian statue left to us by the Renaissance. Only one sculptor would reach greater heights and then by inheriting what Donatello had learned, achieved, and taught.

"Bertoldo was Donatello's pupil and the teacher of Michelangelo."

Any final comments about Donatello?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 18, 2007 - 03:54 am
Lucca della Robbia

robert b. iadeluca
February 18, 2007 - 04:02 am
"The picture that takes form in our minds, as we read Vasari's biographies of Ghiberti and Donatello, shows the studio of a Renaissance sculptor as the co=operative enterprise of many hands, directed by one mind, but transmitting the art, day by day, from master to apprentice, generation after generation.

"From such studios came minor sculptors who left to history a less imperious fame but in their degree contributed to give to passing beauty a lasting form.

"Nanni di Banco inherited a fortune and had the means to be worthless. But he fell in love with sculpture and Donatello, and served a faithful apprenticeship under him until he could set up his own studio.

"He carved a St. Philip for the niche of the shoemakers guild in Or San Michele and for the cathedral a St. Luke seated with the Gospel in his hand and looking out with all the confidence of fresh faith upon a Renaissance Italy just beginning to doubt."

Robby

winsum
February 18, 2007 - 06:22 am
You have a good point viewing the work As a historian but I find that I'm more interested in the history that is happening now today and I've skipped a lot of the ancient political and religious coverage in here. However ART in any form is something I understand. Harts sculptures in bronze are probably honest but I see them as the imature fantasies of a young man who is attracted to his model and indeed marries her.

Justin you are right I think about the smallness and weakness of the Donatello David. but why the hat and the rounded femininne hips.

You are wrong about me. I've had enough experience in life as a mother grandmother artist visual person to know what a teen age boy looks like. MY grandson fills the bill here. He's tall and lank and not well muscled at fourteen. I think our bronze david may be about twelve, but no boy ever had hips like those. And yes, I appreciate a nicely built MAN.

Claire

Malryn
February 18, 2007 - 06:34 am

Della Robbia

Della Robbia, Museum of Fine Arts Boston

Della Robbia bas relief

Glazaed Terra Cotta artwork by Luca Della Robbia

Malryn
February 18, 2007 - 06:42 am

CLICK THIS LINK AND SCROLL DOWN to see PRoe Wyatt's beautiful Donatello-type teenage grandson.

Éloïse De Pelteau
February 18, 2007 - 06:57 am
Great art these past few days I enjoy every one one of them. I am learning more about sculpture and perhaps someone could show us more American sculptures to compare. The Hart sculptures are superb. If we could look at them in 3D it would be better of course but it's a start.

robert b. iadeluca
February 18, 2007 - 07:15 am
My office is on the Fauquier Hospital grounds in Warrenton, Virginia. The hospital is at the top of a hill. Part way down this hill is a 70-foot flagpole lighted at night and an area designated to remembering all the Fauquier County youths who died in the 20th century wars. Surrounding this area is a long long string of marching soldiers in bronze. They are very masculine and anything but "immature fantasies."

They were designed by Frederick Hart.

I tried to bring up a photo of that from the Internet but couldn't find it.

Robby

winsum
February 18, 2007 - 07:30 am
teen age angel Maybe younger.

Mal that is the look . . .What a beautiful kid.

Robbie as usual we disagree. nothing new there.

Claire

robert b. iadeluca
February 18, 2007 - 07:45 am
Claire:-On this topic we disagree. I wasn't aware it was "usual."

Robby

winsum
February 18, 2007 - 07:48 am
here is an article about Hart and the memorial in Washington over which there was some argument. Public taste at the time liked his work. And currently still does. Artists taste differs radically but we know that. The public doesn't like abstraction either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Hart_(sculptor)

winsum
February 18, 2007 - 10:14 am
Robby it is usual. Claire

Éloïse De Pelteau
February 18, 2007 - 10:41 am
The only American sculpture that comes to my mind right now is in the LINCOLN MEMORIAL and when I saw it it stirred me because of its size, the history it spoke about and its beauty. I think it can very well compare with any sculpture by ancient masters. You see in Canada we don't have anything as grand that reminds us of our past history. Oh! sure we have lots of statues but not like that one.

robert b. iadeluca
February 18, 2007 - 04:13 pm
"In another studio the brothers Bernardo and Antonio Rossellino combined their skills in architecture and sculpture.

"Bernardo designed a classic tomb in Santa Croce for Leonardo Bruni. Then, on the accession of Nicholas V he went to Rome and consumed himself in the great Pope's architectural revolution.

"Antonio reached his zenith at thirty-four with his marble tomb in San Miniato, at Florence, for Don Jayme, Cardinal of Portugal. Here is the victory of the classic style in all but the angel's wings, the Cardinals vestments, and his crown of virginity -- for James had startled his time by his chastity.

"America has two lovely examples of Antonio's work -- the marble bust of The Christ Child in the Morgan Library and The Young St. John the Baptist in the National Gallery.

"And is there anywhere a nobler example of realistic portraiture than the powerful head -- corrugated with veins and furrowed with thought -- of the physician Giovanni di San Miniato, in the Victoria and Albert Museum?"

Robby

Justin
February 19, 2007 - 12:10 am
Sam Miniato houses the Rossellino tableau. It is the tomb of the Portuguese Cardinal. It is quite elaborate. Marble curtains are drawn back revealing the Virgin smiling down at a sleeping Cardinal. Angels have dropped down on the tomb for a moments rest. On the side is a bishop's cathedra with a Virgin's painting above, probably an annunciation. The Rossellino boys were talented in sculpture and architecture and so their tombs are a combination of the two skills. One must compare this chapel decoration to that of the Bardi at Santa Croce which was done by Giotto many years before. The Bardi contains only frescoes. No archtectural embellishment and very little room to move about but the crowds flock to see the Bardi. The hill to San Miniato is too steep for many.

Justin
February 19, 2007 - 12:23 am
San Miniato is Romanesque in style and the marble on the facade has a geometric format. Michelozzo has a chapel in the building and the vaults were done by Della Robbia in glazed terra-cotta. The building was a monastery at one time. Miniato was a martyr in the third or fourth century. He was polished off in some unpleasant way. I looked through some old notes but could not find any reference to his death.

When I was in my fifties I climbed the hill to San Miniato and even then it was tough on the body. I know I could not do it today. San Miniato and I are finished.

winsum
February 19, 2007 - 02:18 am
http://www.san-miniato-al-monte.com/ beautiful place. . claire

Bubble
February 19, 2007 - 03:26 am
http://www.antoniorossellino.artvibrations.com/antoniorossellino/artfile1.php

Third picture down.

robert b. iadeluca
February 19, 2007 - 05:36 am
"Desiderio da Settignano came to Florence from the nearby village tht gave him his cognomen.

"He joined Donatello's staff, saw that the masters work lacked only patient finish and distinguished his own productions with elegance, simplicity, and grace. His tomb for Marsuppini did not quite equal Rossellino's for Bruni but the tabenacle that he designed for the church of San Lorenzo pleased all who saw it and his incidenal portraits and reliefs augmented his fame.

"He died at thirty six. What might he have done if given, like his master, eighty years.

"Luca della Robbia was grantd eight-two and used them well.

"He raised terra cotta work almot to the level of a major art and his fame out-journeyed Donatellos. There is hardly a museum in Europe tht does not display the tenderness of his Madonnas, the cheerful blue and white of his painted clay.

"Beginning as a goldsmith like so many artists of the Renaissance, and learning in that miniscule field all the delicacies of design, he passed on to sculptural relief and carved five marble plaques for Giotto's Campanile. Perhaps the wardens of the cathedral did not tell Luca that these reliefs excelled Giotto's but they soon commissioned him to adorn the organ loft with a relief picturing choir boys and girls in the ecstasy of song.

"Two years later Donatello carved a similar Cantoria. The rival reliefs now face each other in the Opera di duomo or Works of the Cathedral. Both of them powerfully convey the exuberant vitality of childhood. Here the Renaissance rediscovered children for art. In 1446 the wardens engaged him to make reliefs for the bronze doors of a cathedral sacristy.

"These could not rival Ghiberti's but they saved Lorenzo de Medici's life in the Pazzi conspiracy.

"All Florence now acclainmed Luca as a master."

Your reactions, please, to these comments?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 19, 2007 - 05:45 am
Additional info about DESIDERIO DA SETTIGNANO.

Robby

BaBi
February 19, 2007 - 08:28 am
These could not rival Ghiberti's but they saved Lorenzo de Medici's life in the Pazzi conspiracy

Oh, what a teaser! How did Donatello's bronze doors of the cathedral save Lorenzo de Medici's life? Surely Durant did not drop a line like that and leave his readers hanging. Or did he tell this story earlier, and I missed it?

della Robbia Cantoria

Donatello's cantoria

Beautiful. ...Babi

Justin
February 19, 2007 - 03:00 pm
Babi: Yes, Durant leaves us with no further information on the doors and the Medici.

The doors were Della Robbia doors at the entrance to the sacrasty. That is a place where the priests robe and derobe before and after Mass. The doors had hidden locks to prevent entrance and exit by strangers while the priests were dressing.

The Pazzi Conspiracy was brought about political and banking interests. The Pazzi were bankers who had promisd the Medici they would not lend to the Pope who then was an enemy of the Medici. But the Pazzi did lend to the Pope and control of Florence was in contention. Other families were engaged. The Salviati were part of it. Salviati was Bishop of Florence.

One Sunday during Mass, the brother's Medici in attendance, the Salviati stabbed both brothers. Lorenzo, though wounded, got away. He was chased through the sacristy and the doors closed against the Salviati who could not find the locks. Lorenzo recovered and the Pazzi lost all. Della Robbia's doors had saved the Medici.

Justin
February 19, 2007 - 03:19 pm
If you scroll down to the strings section in the Della Robbia Cantoria you will see two babes in the lower portion of the panel,each with a finger pointing up to heaven. In several of Da Vinci's cartoons of the Holy Family with John and Jesus as babes show John pointing at Jesus in a similar manner.

robert b. iadeluca
February 19, 2007 - 05:50 pm
Painting

robert b. iadeluca
February 19, 2007 - 05:51 pm
Masaccio

bluebird24
February 19, 2007 - 05:52 pm
http://www.museumsinflorence.com/musei//museum_of_opera_s_croce.html

bluebird24
February 19, 2007 - 05:55 pm
http://www.abcgallery.com/M/masaccio/masaccio.html

click on pictures on left to make them big

robert b. iadeluca
February 19, 2007 - 05:58 pm
"In fourteenth century Italy painting dominated sculpture.

"In the fifteenth century sculpture dominated painting. In the sixteenth painting again took the lead.

"Perhaps the genious of Giotto in the trecento, of Donatello in the quattrocento, of Leonardo, Raphael, and Titian in the cinquecento played some part in this alteration and yet genious is more a function than a cause of the spirit of any age. Perhaps in Giotto's time the recovery and revelation of classic sculpture had not yet provided such stimulus and direction as they were to give to Ghiberti and Donatello.

"But that stimulus reached its height in the sixteenth century. why did it not lift the Sansovinos and Cellinis, as well as Michelangelo, above the painters of that time? -- and why was Michelangelo, primarily a sculptor, forced more and more into painting?"

Robby

Justin
February 19, 2007 - 10:15 pm
The dominance and decline of one medium or another is small matter when Masaccio is the subject. The man lived to be 27. He inherited and absorbed the lessons of Giotto, Brunelleschi,Donatello, and Ghiberti. From Giotto and Donatello came "naturalism, from Brunelleschi came perspective and from Ghiberti anatomy. He painted in the first quarter of the Quatrocento and took over the work of Masolino in the Brancacci chapel in the Carmine. In a fresco series of St Peter he painted "The Tribute Money." Several figures are represented each with an individual character and appearance. Each exhibits an emotion related to his function in the scene. Masaccio himslf appears in the scene as a by stander. He achieved his image by looking in a mirror and painting himself.

winsum
February 20, 2007 - 12:53 am
Masaccio was my boy and you did a great job presenting him. I tried earlier but no one was ready. cheers. . . claire

robert b. iadeluca
February 20, 2007 - 04:13 am
"Was it because Renaissance art had tasks and needs too wide and deep for sculpture?

"Art, liberated by intelligent and opulent patronage wished to cover the whole field of representation and ornament. To do this with statuary would have taken time, toil, and money prohibitively. Painting could more readily express the double gamut of Christian and pagan ideas in a hurried and exuberant age.

"What sculptor could have portrayed the life of St. Francis as rapidly as Giotto and with Giotto's excellence? More over, Renaissance Italy included a majority of persons, whose feelings and ideas were still medieval and even the emancipaated minority harbored echoes and memories of the old theology, of its hopes and fears and mystic visions, its devotion and tenderness and pesvasive spiritual overtones.

"All these, as well as the beauties and ideals expressed in Greek and Roman sculpture, had to find vent and form in Italian art. And painting offered to do it at least more conveniently, if not also with greater fidelity and subtlety, than sculpture.

"Sculpture had studied the body so long and lovingly that it was not at home in representing the soul, though Gothic carvers had now and then made spiritual stone.

"Renaissance art had to portray both body and soul, face and feelings. It had to be sensitive to, take the impress of, all the range and moods of piety, affective passion, suffering, skepticism, sensualism, pride, and power. Only laborious genius could accomplish this with marble, bronze, or clay. When Ghiberti and Donatello attemptd it they had to carry into sculpture the methods, perspectives, and nuances of painting and sacrificed to vivid expression the ideal form and placid repose required of Greek statuary in the Golden Age.

"Finally, the painter spoke a language more easily understood by the people, in colors that seized the eye, in scenes or narratives that told beloved tales, The Church found that paainting moved the people moe quickly, touched their hearts more intimately, than carving of cold marble or casting or somber bronze. As the Renaissance progressed, art broadened its scope and aim, sculpture receded into the background. Painting advanced.

"And as sculpture had been the highest art expression of the Greeks, so now painting, widening its field, varying its forms, improving its skills, became the supreme and characteristic art, the very face and soul of the Renaissance."

Much to discuss here!

Robby

Malryn
February 20, 2007 - 07:32 am
A page about Giotto's life with paintings including:

The Death of St. Francis by Giotto

winsum
February 20, 2007 - 08:19 am
clay is easy. Della Robbi had the right idea and wax and clay are often the original materials used for casting in bronze. assistants do much of the actual work there. It does cost a lot though. marble takes time and michelangelo left some unfinished. I don't see leaving sculpture to go to painting as a result of difficulty with the mediums. Each media has a different message and artists like to explore many of them. . .carving in wood , stone,and ivory as well as casting in metal

.The doors to the sacristy in Florance made bronze a requirement for the sculpture reliefs although they could have been left plain the church needed to decorate just about everything. Why not the doors? to the Priests dressing rooms a symbol of their importance was their privacy their , the heavy doors with religious images encrusted thereon.. The patrons who paid for it were made important as well.

for a person of my religious persuasion it seems to be a frightening expression of the power of the church and considering the use made of the room almost silly.IMO

Justin
February 20, 2007 - 12:29 pm
The Church wanted both narrative and spirituality in art in order to tell its story. Sculpture in the round, in deep relief, and in low relief has the power of narrative as well spitituality. Donetello's St. Mark is spiritual as well as narrational. It says"Here is a very human guy who is part of the Christian message. You too can be as he is. Relief can depict narrative scenes with background as in Ghiberti's door panels and marble and bronze are durable in the weather.

Painting also has the power of narrative but with more expressive background composition and an enhanced image through color. Preparation is quicker and the materials are less expensive.

Mossaic is very like painting and is durable in all weather and there are some fine examples of religious iconography in Pisa in the medium.

Secular sponsors and donors were often people who travelled with altar pieces, reliquaries, and missals. The market is different.Craftsmanship is required. Cabinet making, goldsmithing, and illumination was required. Secular buyers of art required an iconography of a different kind. Nude figures had a different purpose in this market.

gaj
February 20, 2007 - 03:38 pm
I went looking for artists I loved and found this

Renaissance Art

Malryn
February 20, 2007 - 03:45 pm
<br.
Donatello and others

St. Mark by Donatello -- Click "Image Viewer"
or the picture to see a larger image

BaBi
February 20, 2007 - 05:07 pm
Thank you for your explanation of what the sacristy doors had to do with saving Lorenzo's life, JUSTIN. I remember seeing that scene on the PBS presentation on the Medici family, the assassination that killed the younger brother, and Lorenzo escaping with his life. The sacristy doors and the role they played were not explained in that dramatization.

I am still aghast that an author would write a line like that, and then just leave his readers hanging. If he supposed us knowledgeable enough that he could assume we knew such things,...we wouldn't need to read his huge history, would we?

Babi

robert b. iadeluca
February 20, 2007 - 05:35 pm
"In 1425, for reasons now unknown, Masaccio left his work unfinished, and went to Rome.

"We do not hear of him again and we can only surmise that some accident or disease prematurely ended his life. But even though incomplete those Brancacci frescoes were recognized at once as an immense step forward in painting.

"In those bold nudes, graceful draperies, startling perspectives, ralistic foreshortenings, and precise anatomical details, in this modeling in depth through subtle gradations of light and shade, all sensed a new departure which Vasari called the 'modern' style.

"Every ambitious painter within reach of Florence came to study the series. Fra Angelico, Fra Lippo Lippi, Aandrea del Castgno, Verrocchio, Ghirlandaio, Botticelli, Perugino, Piero della Francesca, Leonardo, Fran Bartolommeo, Andrea del Sarto, Michelangelo, Raphael. No dead men had every had such distinguished pupils, no artist since Giotto had wielded, unwillingly, such influence.

"Said Leonardo:-'Masaccio showed by perfect works that those who are led by any guide except Nature, the supreme mistress, are consumed in sterile toil.'"

Robby

Malryn
February 20, 2007 - 08:57 pm

EARLY RENAISSANCE PAINTING

Masaccio

Sandro Botticelli

Andrea Montegna

Giovenni Bellini

Mallylee
February 21, 2007 - 02:36 am
I missed a lot of discussion of Durant's history of civilisation. The later two that I have been following are about the histroy of elite groups only, aren't they? I mean, people who have no education, who are still believers in old folk supersttiions, as well as perhaps the superimpostion on these of medieval Christian metaphysical beliefs, are not being mentioned. What proportion of the people in Florence were new humanists? I bet, only a select few people such as high churchmen, some moneyed traders, and aristocrats.

robert b. iadeluca
February 21, 2007 - 04:13 am
Fra Angelico

robert b. iadeluca
February 21, 2007 - 04:25 am
"Amid these exciting novelties Fra Angelico went quietly his own medieval way.

"Born in a Tuscan village and named Guido di Pietro, he came to Florence young and studied painting, probably with Lorenzo Monaco. His talent ripened quickly and he had every prospect of making a comfortable place for himself in the world but the love of peace and the hope of salvation led him to enter the Dominican order.

"After a long novitiate in various cities, Fra Giovanni, as he had been renamed, settled down in the convent of San Domenico in Fisole. There, in happy obscurity, he illuminated manuscripts, and painted pictures for churches and religious confraternites.

"In 1436 the friars of San Comenico were transferred to the new convent of San Marco, bu9lt by Michelozzo at Cosimo's order and expense. During the next nine years Giovanni painted half a hundred frescoes on the walls of the monastery church, chapter house, dormitory, refectory, hospice, cloisters, and cells.

"Meanwhile, he practiced religion with such modest devotion that his fellow friars called him the Angelic Brother -- Fra Angelico. No one ever saw him angry or succeeded in offending him.

"Thomas a Kempis would have found fully realized in him the Imitation of Christ, except for one smiling lapse in a Last Judgment the angelic Dominican could not resist placing a few Franciscan friars in hell."

Robby

Malryn
February 21, 2007 - 06:49 am

FRA ANGELICO

BaBi
February 21, 2007 - 07:03 am
I did find Fra Angelico's representations more realistic, more true to what one would expect. His Mary is appropriately young; Joseph older, for example. I am curious as to how the Franciscan friars were identified in the Last Judgment scenes. I saw nothing which would identify any of the 'damned'.

Babi

Bubble
February 21, 2007 - 07:06 am
A very starnge positionning of feet in this last Fra Angelico. It would seem hard to keep one's balance.

Babi, they were recognizable maybe by their shaved tonsured heads?

BaBi
February 21, 2007 - 07:23 am
Possibly, BUBBLES. I went back for another look, and did spot a couple of tonsured heads, but not a group together. Anyway, tonsures were not confined to Franciscans. Fra Angelico may have been taking a small dig at some of his own more difficult confreres!

Babi

Malryn
February 21, 2007 - 07:51 am

Fra Angelico at the Met
Click image to enlarge

winsum
February 21, 2007 - 10:40 am
welcome to the world of Durant who rather than being a history lover is only a lover of ancient times and gets them mixed up. This book isn't well organized and his own preferences are paramount. If we want to take off on some of it we do but Robby runs a pretty tight ship. His preferences are paramount also.

Malryn
February 21, 2007 - 04:03 pm

Dear friend, Winsome Claire with the beautiful hair:

We've known each other for quite a long time. Going on 10 years, isn't it? That's why I feel free to say what I'm going to put in this post.

It gets tiresome reading your put-downs of Will Durant and his wife, Ariel. Did yoo ever stop to think that people interested in joining this discussion might turn away because of what you say?

There have to be good reasons why this particular discussion has run for a very long time -- since early November, 2001. If the Durants and their portrayal of history were so offbase, the Story of Civilization discussion would have folded after a month. I've been here since the day it began.

Here's an idea. If this place doesn't please you, because there's not enough focus on art, why don't you open an Art History discussion? It would attract many people, and I"m sure SeniorNet would be glad to have such an addition to its agenda.

Mal

winsum
February 21, 2007 - 04:51 pm
Art History would be great and I tried to get Justin to host it. He's taught it on a college level and would be great. I've suggested it to Marcie and I think maybe Emma might like to do it, but I don't like to be in a position of having to teach. Done that enough in my lifetime. I share what I know but when it is not appreciated I withdraw and grumble which is what has happened here.

As for your being here so long what does that mean. Does it offer privlege or require certain rites of passage, membership as in a cliche. It has been said that this is that kind of place and people don't stay because of it.

As for me, I had hoped for an art discussion but it's mostly names and dates except for the links so kindly offered by you and a few others. There is much to explore like book design and illustration metalwork and jewelry. . . In your absence I have supplied links and bluebird and eloise and others have filled the gap as well.



it's a huge subject but Robby has seen fit to gloss over it and Durant was so disorganized it's hard to follow in his writings.. No one edited it before publishing??? hard to believe but it looks that way.

I check in to see what Justin has to say and look at your links which are great. so thank you again and be well.



Claire

bluebird24
February 21, 2007 - 05:57 pm
http://www.abcgallery.com/A/angelico/angelico.html

click on pictures on left to make them big

winsum
February 21, 2007 - 08:24 pm
the madonna and child with angels this one

http://www.abcgallery.com/A/angelico/angelico72.JPG

is done in tempra on wood. that's with egg and isn't the color brilliant. lovely

claire edit: These are gorgeous. whatever time this artist lived he would be notable. The detail of the last judgement is downright awesome. what an imagination. thanks bluebird

gaj
February 21, 2007 - 08:34 pm
I got the 'Forbidden' message when I used the link.

robert b. iadeluca
February 21, 2007 - 08:37 pm
Claire:-I see that on Saturday you encouraged those in the discussion on Sculpting to visit our discussion here where, as you told them, we were discussing "Renaissance sculpting." We appreciate your bringing others to this discussion. This, plus the fact that you stay with us, tells me that you find this a stimulating group.

Perhaps, as time goes along, you will find subjects other than art as interesting and as important to the progress of Mankind as art.

Robby

winsum
February 21, 2007 - 08:42 pm
HERE

CHECK OUT THE Gian Lorenzo Bernini SCULPTURES . . . so full of action and vitality.

claire

edit: to get the list you have to click on the "Beato Angelico" hotlink. strange navigation.

Justin
February 21, 2007 - 11:38 pm
It is interesting to me that Durant choses to discuss Fra Angelico at this point in the book. I suppose it is due to timing. He has moved fairly well chronologically and Angelico functioned in the 1HQ.and thats where we are.

Angelico was a religious painter exclusively. Most of his work is in fresco though he made some panel altar pieces in triptych with predella.

His manner of painting is not Renaissance but International Gothic. This is a style developed in the North of Europe largely by the Flemish painter Broderlamn. It is characterized by architectural settings, religious scenes, and a fixed set of vivid colors for a palette. His blues, vermillions, oranges, and yellows are imediately recognizable.

His sense of perspective is primitive Renaissance. One could describe it as "up the page" and "overlapping", though in some works he shows an awareness of Masaccio's Trinity Crucifixion which is a major contribution to perspective drawing. He has a feeling for the importance of diagonals in establishing depth. If you look at his Coronation of the Virgin in the Louvre you can see how he achieves diagonals with color. Christ and the Virgin form a diagonal downward to place her beneath him and in front of him.

His backgrounds vary. Some are gold and archtectural and others simply contained in architectural boxes. That technigue derives from the International Gothic style and not from the Renaissance.

His pople are monotonously similar. The Dominicans are rubber stamped and no one seems to have body. I like this fellows work. Who could not? But it does get boring. He was prolific. There must be several hundred works in all in his catalogue.

winsum
February 22, 2007 - 05:20 am
work in the above link is done in tempra on wood panals. His Last Judgement Detail is like no other in its imagination and organization.Friend Jan calls it rather aptly "Lots of little people living in a theological tenement"

but I think it's quite wonderful and his colors blow me away, the brilliant reds blues golds and the cool flesh tones.Tempra lends itself to the layering of transparent layers of colors which enhances their luminosity. Each layer lets light between it's particles of pigment and the light bounces around between them.

I'm not bored. , . .

Claire

winsum
February 22, 2007 - 06:16 am
I was thinnking about the materials class at ucla. We did everything that those gothic, renaissance painters did. the wood panal the home made gesso and the egg yolk tempera grinding our pure pigments with water on a glass palette all became part of our tool box. I still use transparent layering to enhance color even in acrylic and always in OIL.

When I look at something like the Fra Angelico tempra paintings I understand what he was/is doing. I'm there in a way that makes for an intimate interaction with the work.

This is something that more than knowing how it's done is even more valuable I FEEL intuit how it is/was and find that exciting.

Claire

winsum
February 22, 2007 - 06:42 am
Mankind is a mixed bag, so creative and intelligent and so stupid and violent even now. I don't have to go back into history to find that. The discussion limits itself to the elite as others have pointed out and my humanist type soul cringes. So I take what I can get. thanks for caring.

the one thing I can offer here is how it is done

bits of information. Justin and Rich have come up with history which is another way and ifwe stay with it for a while there will be much more to consider.

i.e. the gothic way of using large and small figures in the same image is used in commercial advertising even now lathough it's going out of style. Remember the old MONTAGE arrangements. Art is a universal language.

Claire

bluebird24
February 22, 2007 - 05:46 pm
you are welcome:) I love his colors too.

gaj
February 22, 2007 - 06:02 pm
I specially love his blues. They jump off the screen.

JoanK
February 22, 2007 - 08:02 pm
CLAIRE: I also get "you are not authorized messages on many of your links. But I like the discussion, and your feeling for his paintings inspires me.

winsum
February 22, 2007 - 11:00 pm
that's strange I don't belong to any special group but I did get the original links from people here i.e. bluebird and Mal. one of hers had that. I think teachers and researchers are authorized and if we go through one of their links we have access to other parts of the site.

So who has access? Anyone?

sorry about that. Claire

robert b. iadeluca
February 23, 2007 - 04:01 am
My procedure over the years has been to let the participants here be the "motor" so to speak of the vehicle of which I am the "driver." I note such things as how many different people are posting - is the same person making post after post without there being an exchange, how many posts are made, are the posters referring to Durant's words, etc. I also keep in mind those people I know are lurking bur rarely posting.

Sometimes you will see that I quote Durant twice a day and then I might go a couple of days without quoting him. Participants have emailed me over the past five years that this method works successfully. The goal is to have a discussion which is not too one-sided.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 24, 2007 - 08:17 am
Fra Filippo Lippi

robert b. iadeluca
February 24, 2007 - 08:24 am
"From the gentle Angelico, crossed with the lusty Masaccio, came the art of a man who preferred life to eternity.

"Filippo, son of the butcher Tommaso Lippi, was born in Florence in a poor street behind the convent of the Carmelites. Orphaned at two, he was reluctantly reared by an aunt, who rid herself of him when he was eight by entering him into the Carmelite order.

"Instead of studying the books assigned to him he covered their margins with caricatures. The prior, noting their excellence, set him to drawing the frescoes that Masaccio had just painted in the carmelite cnurch.

"Soon the lad was painting frescoes of his own in that same church. They have disappeared but Vasari thought them as good as Masaccios.

"At the age of twenty-six Filippo left the monastery. He continued to call himself Fra, brother, friar, but he lived in the 'world' and supported himself by his art."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 24, 2007 - 08:28 am
More info about FRA FILIPPO LIPPI.

Robby

Malryn
February 24, 2007 - 08:36 am

Fra Filippo Lippi

Links to Fra Lippi's work on the World Wide Web

JoanK
February 24, 2007 - 01:41 pm
MAL: when I clicked on your second link, I got Fra Filippo Lippi's son, Filippino.

Justin
February 24, 2007 - 02:21 pm
We have come to the end of 1HQ with the work of Fra Lippi. His son Fillipino Lippi, will succeed him as a painter and Botticelli, his pupil will carry the techniques of Giotto, Donatello, Brunelleschi, Masaccio,and Fra Lippi into 2HQ. The emphasis has been on "naturalism". The full forms in narrative settings of Giotto were enhanced by Masaccio's perspective ideas, naturalized with the appearance of motion in Donatello. Fra Lippi brought us the beauty of line and model in combination with naturalism and perspective. His style became more Gothic after 1440 but the early paintings are clearly in the growing Renaissance style. One can not overlook the beauty of his model for the Madonna. Vasari speculates she may have been his innamorata. Who knows? She probably was the nun who left the convent for him.

robert b. iadeluca
February 25, 2007 - 07:21 am
"In 1439 'Fra Lippo' described himself in a letter to Piero de' Medici, as the poorest friar in Florence, living with, and supporting with difficulty, six nieces anxious to be married.

"His work was in demand but apparently not as well paid as the nieces wished. His morals could not have been notoriously bad for we find him engaged to paint pictures for various nunneries.

"At the convent of Santa Margherita in Prato he fell in love with Lucrezia Buti, a nun or a ward of the nuns. He persuaded the prioress to let Lucrezia pose for him as the Virgin. Soon they eloped. Despite her father's reproaches and appeals she remained with the artist as his mistress and model, sat for many Virgins, and gave him a son, the Filippino Lippi of later fame.

"The wardens of the cathedral at Prato did not hold these adventures against Filippo. In 1456 they engaged him to paint the choir with frescoes illustrating the lives of St. John the Baptist and St. Stephen.

"These paintings, now much damaged by time, were acclaimed as masterpieces. Perfect in composition, rich in color, alive with drama -- coming to a climax on one side of the choir with the dance of Salome, on the other with the stoning of Stephen.

"Filippo found the task too wearisome for his mobility. Twice he ran away from it. In 1461 Cosimo persuaded Pius II to release the artist from his monastic vows. Filippo seems to have thought himself also freed from fidelity to Lucrezia who could no longer pose as a virgin. The Prato wardens exhausted all schemes for luring him back to his frescoes. At last, ten years after their inception, he was induced to finish them by Carlo de' Medici, Cosimo's illegtimate son, now an apostolic notary.

"In the scene of Stephens burial Filippo exercised all his powers -- in the deceptive perspective of the architectural background, in the sharply individualized figures surrounding the corpse, and in the stout proportions and calm rotund face of Cosimo's bastard reading the services for the dead."

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
February 25, 2007 - 08:03 am
Thank you Robby, Justin, Mal, Claire and all the others for my continuing education in S of C, it is sheer pleasure to learn this way. Contrary to you Claire I have found Durant very organized throughout all those volumes we have discussed in the past, he follows his plan to the letter. His wisdom is unparalleled as he writes about history with large doses of philosophy. These past pages on art history have warmed the cold windy days with hours of delight for me.

BaBi
February 25, 2007 - 08:46 am
Shades of 'Pere Goriot'!! While in principle, I believe a man should finish what he agrees to do, I have to sympathize with his desire to leave town as often as possible. Six nieces, desperate for dowries so they can marry before they become unmarriageable? Poor man.

I agree, ELOISE. Durant has been organized and consistent in his presentation of a very broad scenario. He and his wife must have loved what they were doing; they devoted a lifetime to it!

Babi

JoanK
February 25, 2007 - 01:18 pm
When you think about what Durant is trying to do, there probably is no way he could have done it that would not involve backing and forwarding and repitition. His organization, going back over the same periods from different perspectives, can get confusing, especially if I don't follow the outline to see where he is. But I don't see how he could have avoided this.

robert b. iadeluca
February 25, 2007 - 01:28 pm
JoanK:-That is why I started the system using the GREEN quotes in the Heading. They can help a bit. For example, under the section "Rise of the Medici" we have touched upon six sub-sections including the present one of Painting. When this is completed we will enter the next section "The Golden Age, 1464 to 1492.

Robby

winsum
February 25, 2007 - 02:18 pm
unusual among all the other Madonnas but appropriate I think. The same face on the little angel.

Fifi le Beau
February 25, 2007 - 08:10 pm
Mal's link to Fra Filippo Lippi was great because the pictures almost filled the screen, and it was easier to see the detail.

The first thing that caught my attention was the red angel wings. Then the brown wings, but not to be outdone with red shoes. Do angels wear shoes? There were gold wings, white wings, grey wings, but the red ones caught the eye.

It is evident that Fra Lippi painted what he saw everyday. The Annunciation C 1442, showed the architectural detail of Florence, not Palestine. I liked this painting that showed Mary in the doorway and angels at her doorstep. She has one hand up as if alarmed, and the other extended palm down as if to say, Stay! I'm not ready.

The Hebrews got their six winged angel Seraphim from the cult of Osiris and Apis in Ptolemaic Egypt through the Egyptian god Serapis. Since it would be tough to paint six wings on a small model, the Italians settled for one and gave it some color.

The red shoes were unexpected on an angel, but the Pope favors them too. I once bought a pair of red shoes in a moment of wanting to live dangerously, and have never worn them.

Perhaps when my grgrandaughter comes tomorrow (no school) we will play dress up and I'll try them out, high heels and all.

Fifi

robert b. iadeluca
February 26, 2007 - 05:22 am
"To feel with any vividness the life of art in Cosimo's Florence we must not only contemplate those major geniuses whom we have here commemorated so hurriedly.

"We must enter the side streets and alleys of art and visit a hundred shops and studios where potters shaped and painted clay -- or glassmakers blew or cut glass into forms of fragile loveliness -- or goldsmiths fashioned precious metals or stone into gems and medals, seals and coins, and a thousand ornaments of dress or person, home or church.

"We must hear noisy intent artisans beating or chasing iron, copper, or bronze into weaons and armor, vessels and utnsils and tools. We must watch the cabinet makers designing, carving, inlaying, or surfacing wood --engravers cutting designs into metal -- and other workers chiseling chimney pieces, or tooling leather -- or carving ivory, or producing delicate textiles to make flesh seductive or adorn a home.

"We must enter convents and see patient monks illuminating manuscripts, placid nuns stitching storied tapestries.

"Above all we must picture a population developed enough to understand beauty and wise enough to give honor, sustenance, and stimulus to those who consumed themselves in its making."

Waking from the Dark Ages?

Robby

BaBi
February 26, 2007 - 08:54 am
#311 A beautiful passage, ROBBY. It is a perfect example of Durant's "vivid vignettes". But just writing this post, I find myself curious as to which of the Durants wrote with this poetic flow of words. I have no idea how the work was divided between the two of them. Has that been explained?

Babi

Bubble
February 26, 2007 - 09:12 am
#311 reminds me, in music, of the start and first scenes from Porgy and Bess, with the morning starting and the different noises amplifying and blending together.

You are right BaBi, it is beautifully said.

Éloïse De Pelteau
February 26, 2007 - 09:33 am
Babi, "From 1935 to 1975, Will and Ariel Durant published eleven volumes of The Story of Civilization. Will took sole credit for the first six volumes. As Ariel's contribution increased, she shared credit for the work, and the last five volumes bear both Durants' names." Encyclopedia Brittanica

Bubble
February 26, 2007 - 09:35 am
Eloise, that doesn't say if Ariel did the research work or if she actually had a say in the choice of words used in the text.

Rich7
February 26, 2007 - 09:44 am
But I found Ariel's story interesting, and it goes into a little more detail on her contribution.

http://www.willdurant.com/ariel.htm

Rich

Éloïse De Pelteau
February 26, 2007 - 09:55 am
Ariel met Will at 14 and she married while still a teenager while he was more than 10 years older and had completed his Jesuit education where they master Greek and Latin. We often see French words tucked in here and there too. Arial was officially recognized from the 5th volume on and it will be easy to see a change in writing style when we go on to the 5th volume in one or two years, will I still be around I wonder? The clock is ticking.

robert b. iadeluca
February 27, 2007 - 04:07 am
"We have kept for the last a man who defines classification and can best be understood as the embodied synthesis of his time.

"Leon Battista Alberti lived every phase of his century except the political. He was born in Venice of a Florentine exile, returned to Florence when Cosimo was recalled and fell in love with its art, its music, its literary and philosophical coteries.

"Florence responded by hailihg him as almost a monstrously perfect man. He was both handsome and strong, excelled in all bodily exercises -- could, with feet tied, leap over a standing man -- could, in the great cathedral, throw a coin far up to ring agaianst the vault -- amused himself by taming wild horses and climbing mountains.

"He was a good singer, an eminent organist, a charming conversationalist, an eloquent orator, a man of alert but sober intelligence, a gentleman of refinement and courtesy, generous to all but women, whom he satirized with unpleasant persistence and possibly artificial indignation.

"Caring little about money, he committed the care of his property to his friends and shared its income with them. He said:-'Men can do all things if they will' and indeed there were few major artists in the Italian Renaissance who did not excel in several arts. Like Leonardo half a century later, Alberti was a master, or at least a skilled practitioner, in a dozen fields -- mathematics, mechanicss, architecture, sculpture, painting, music, poetry, drama, philosophy, civil and canon law.

"He wrote on nearly all these subjects, including a treatise on painting that influenced Piero della Francesca and perhaps Leonardo. He added two dialogues on women and the art of love and a famous essay on 'The Care of the Family.' After painting a picture he would call in children and ask them what it meant. If it puzzled them he considered it a failure. He was among the first to discover the possibilities of the camera obscura.

"Predominantly an architect, he passed from city to city raising facades or chapels in the Roman style. In Rome he shared in planning the buildings with which, as Vasari put it, Nichols V was 'turning the capital upside down.'

"In Rimini he transfored the old church of San Francesco into almost a pagan temple. In Florence he raised a marble front for the church of Santa Maria Novella and built for the Rucellai family a chapel in the church of San Pancrazio and two palaces of simple and sttely design.

"In Mantua he adorned the cathedral with a chapel of the Incoronata and faced the church of Sant' Andrea with a facade in the form of a Roman triumphal arch."

Any comments about this amazing man?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 27, 2007 - 04:56 am
More info about LEONE BATTISTA ALBERTI.

Robby

BaBi
February 27, 2007 - 02:02 pm
ELOISE and RICH, thanks for the additional info. on Ariel Durant and her part in the 'Story of Civilization'.

Babi

zanybooks
February 27, 2007 - 02:04 pm
The United States founding fathers were thoroughly familiar with the history (at least the British history) that is examined in "The Age of Louis XIV." They were aware that in Britian every brand of Christianity (save perhaps the Quakers) had as its goal the torture, imprisonment, death, or conversion of the members of all other sects. So they enscribed freedom of religion in the bill or rights. Unfortunately, this history is no longer taught in America's public schools with the result we may be doomed to go through all the horror once again.

robert b. iadeluca
February 27, 2007 - 07:53 pm
I am confused, Zany. What does that have to do with Durant's previous comment?

Robby

Traude S
February 27, 2007 - 09:04 pm
Having just read the Wikipeda link on Alberti, I have an idea where Zany's comment comes from.

Alberti advocated the teaching children the alphabet as early as possible because that's when their capacity of absorbing everything is greatest.

Dr. Maria Montessori (1870-1952), the first woman physician in Italy, followed the same principles (The Montessori Method) with enormous success in Europe and in this country. There are hundreds of schools nationwide. My son attended one in Virginia; they almost didn't take him because he was almost four (!!) They prefer three-year olds, provided they are toilet-trained.

Sorry to digress.

Justin
February 28, 2007 - 12:31 am
Leoni Alberti expressed in literature, in his "Della Pittura", the new mechanics of Renaissance painting. The work of Brunelleschi, Donatello, Masaccio, Luca della Robbia, and Ghiberti are at the center of Alberti's theory of painting.

Not only did he bring the ancient skills of Greece and Rome to the fore but he also introduced single point perspective as a mathematical concept. It enabled painters to place figures in space with depth.

We will see in the works of the painters who follow evidence of the contributions of Alberti. It was Alberti who pointed out the advantages of depicting figures interelated by pose and gesture. You may recall the early efforts of Giotto the achieve this interaction of figures.

It will all come together in the "sacred conversatione" setting. Fra Angelico responds almost immediately to Alberti's concepts. The San Marco Altarpiece,done in 1439, adopts single point perspective and the figures are interelated by pose and gesture.

robert b. iadeluca
February 28, 2007 - 04:07 am
The Golden Age

1464-1492

robert b. iadeluca
February 28, 2007 - 04:18 am
Piero "Il Gottoso"

robert b. iadeluca
February 28, 2007 - 04:27 am
"Cosimo's son Piero, aged fifty, succeeded to his wealth, his authority, and his gout.

"Even from boyhood this disease of the prosperous had afflicted Piero so that his contemporaries, to distinguish him from other Peters, called him Il Gottoso. He was a man of fair ability and good morals. He had performed reasonably well some diplomatic missions entrusted to him by his father. He was generous to his friends, to literature, religion, and art. But he lacked Cosimo's intelligence, geniality, and tact.

"To cement political support Cosimo had lent large sums to influential citizens. Piero now suddently called in these loans. Several debtors, fearing bankruptcy, proclaimed a revolution under 'the name of liberty, which,' says Machiavelli, 'they adopted as their ensign to give their purpose a graceful covering.' For a brief interval they controlled the government but the Medicean party soon recaptured it.

"Piero continued a troubled reign until his death.

"He left two sons, Lorenzo, aged twenty, Giuliano sixteen.

"Florence could not believe that such youths could successfully direct the business of their family, much less the affairs of the state. Some citizens demanded the restoration of the Republic in fact as well as form. Many feared a generation of chaos and civil war.

"Lorenzo surprised them"

Robby

BaBi
February 28, 2007 - 07:23 am
I suppose the moral here is that if you use money to buy friends, asking for your money back is a sure way to make enemies. Obviously, as Durant said, Piero lacked Cosimo's intelligence.

I was surprised to read that Piero had been afflicted with gout since boyhood, since I had the impression that gout was aggravated by long-term overeating of certain foods. I was wrong, of course.

Gout (also called metabolic arthritis) is a disease due to an inborn disorder of the uric acid metabolism. In this condition monosodium urate crystals are deposited on the articular cartilage of joints and in the particular tissue like tendons. (from the Wickipedia encyclopedia.)

Babi

bluebird24
February 28, 2007 - 06:33 pm
http://www.abcgallery.com/A/angelico/angelico18.html

Justin
March 1, 2007 - 12:31 am
Thank You, Bluebird for the San Marco Altarpiece. The main panel was cleaned disastrously at some point in the past so what we have left is just a vestige of the original.

The innovations in the work, and suggested by Alberti,however, are readily recognizable. Single point perspective is centered just beyond the Madonna. Orthogonals are in the Persian Carpet and the diagonals formed by the Dominicans on the right and the Saints on the left terminate in the Madonna.

The Medicis donated the money for the restoration so their saints are in front. Notice that saints are in conversation as are the monks and the angels behind.

There is a crucifixion at the entrance to the painting at the very bottom of the canvas. It is a picture within a picture and very appropriate for the crucifixion admits one to paradise. It is also a device that establishes the picture plane from which the construction is projected.

Notice also that niche in which the Madonna appears is an architectural construction in the manner of Brunelleschi. Behind the archtecture lies a forest landscape. No longer are the backgrounds made of gold leaf but of reality.

Two palm projections rise in the back ground, one over the first saint and one over the first monk. Palm fronds are symbols of martyrdom and the two saints in front, Damian and Cosmos, had their heads removed. Damian's head on the figure at left appears a little askew.

The panel is seven feet wide and just a little bit higher in height. Two predellas are attached to the base but not shown in the posting. The total altarpiece is over eight feet high.

Mallylee
March 1, 2007 - 02:06 am
Why did so many Italian 'old masters ' paint nothing but scenes from Christian mythology? Was it because this was the only topic thought by their employers to be worthy of clever picture -making?

It seems very much of another time and place that the prevailing subjects of pictures and sculptures are religious ones.



I am interested in history of ideas.

This is from Justin(above)Notice also that niche in which the Madonna appears is an architectural construction in the manner of Brunelleschi. Behind the archtecture lies a forest landscape. No longer are the backgrounds made of gold leaf but of reality

What this means to me is that while art was still in the service of Christian myth, it was doing so within a realistic idiom, and not an iconic idiom.Does this make sense? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance_humanism

I scrolled down to the bit from the writings of Erasmus, which helps me to understand how Christian medieval beliefs with the emphasis on 'meekness' are being infiltrated with classical-inspired, humanistic beliefs about the place of the individual as free to be happy in this life together with glorifying God.

Malryn
March 1, 2007 - 04:34 pm

PORTRAIT OF IL GOTTOSO
Click image

robert b. iadeluca
March 1, 2007 - 06:38 pm
The Development of Lorenzo

robert b. iadeluca
March 1, 2007 - 06:46 pm
"Noting Piero's ill health, Cosimo had done his best to prepare Lorenzo for the tasks of power.

"The boy had learned Greek from Joannes Argyropoulos, philosophy from Ficino, and he had absorbed education unconsciously by hearing the conversation of statesmen, poets, artists, and humanists. He learned also the arts of war and at nineteen, in a tournament displayhing the sons of Florence's leading families, he won the first prize 'not by favor, but by his own valor.'

"On his armor, in that contest, was a French motto, Le temps revient, which might have been the theme of the Renaissance -- 'The (Golden) Age returns.

"Meanwhile he had taken to writing sonnets in the style of Dante and Petrarch and bound by fashion to write of love, he sought among the aristocracy some lady whom he might poetically desire. He chose Lucrezia Donati and celebrated all her virtues except her regrettable chastity. For she seems never to have allowed more than the passions of the pen. Piero, thinking marrige a sure cure for romance, persuaded the youth to wed Clarice Orsini, thus allying the Medici with one of the two most powerful families in Rome.

"On that occasion the entire city was feasted by the Medici for three successive days and give thousand pounds of sweetmeats were consumed."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 1, 2007 - 06:51 pm
What is an ITALIAN SONNET?

Robby

winsum
March 1, 2007 - 11:11 pm
I have shingles. . . .

yuck claire

Justin
March 2, 2007 - 01:01 am
MallyLee; The church is still the dominant patron. However, secular donors are slowly coming to the fore. The various banking and wool merchant families of Florence have begun to commission works to decorate chapels. They will change their tastes as classical themes become more obvious and as their freedom to satisfy their own desires becomes more apparent to them.

Justin
March 2, 2007 - 01:02 am
Claire: Yuck.

Mallylee
March 2, 2007 - 01:06 am
Thanks Justin. I can't follow the discussion without such an overview as your message

Mallylee
March 2, 2007 - 01:07 am
Claire get well soon

robert b. iadeluca
March 2, 2007 - 06:06 am
"Cosimo had given the lad some practice in public affairs and Piero, in power, widened the range of his responsibilities in finance and government.

"When Piero died Lorenzo found himself the richest man in Florence, perhaps in Italy. The management of his fortune and his business might have been a sufficient burden for his young shoulders and the Republic had now a chance to reassert its sauthority. But the clients, debtors, friends, and appointees of the Medici were so numerous and so anxious for the continuance of Medicean rule that, two days after Piero's death, a deputation of leading citizens waited upon Lorenzo at his home and asked him to assume the guidance of the stte.

"He was not hard to convince. The finances of the Medici firm were so entangled with those of the city that he feared ruin if the enemies or rivals of his house should capture political power. To quiet criticism of his youth, he appointed a council of experienced citizens to advise him on all matters of major concern. He consulted this council throughout his career but he soon showed such good judgment that it rarely questioned his leadership.

"He offered his youngter brother a generous share of power but Giuliano loved music and poetry, jousts and love. He admired Lorenzo and gladly resigned to him the cares and honors of government.

"Lorenzo ruled as Cosimo and Piero had ruled, remaining a private citizen but recommending policies to a balia in which the supporters of his house had a secure majority.

"The balia, under the constitution, had absolute but only temporary power. Under the Medici it became a permanent Council of Severity."

Robby

BaBi
March 2, 2007 - 06:26 am
A young man of remarkable good sense, this Lorenzo, and commendable family feeling. Appointing a council of older, respected citizens to advise him in the 'guidance of the state' was an astute move. It would not only curb criticism, it would allow him more time to attend to his own business. And in a place and time where rivalry was so intense, I respect him all the more for his willingness to share his power with his younger brother. One can see here the characteristics of his mind and personality that made him great.

Babi

Éloïse De Pelteau
March 2, 2007 - 08:04 am
Interactive timeline of THE MEDICI TURNING POINTS 1360 - 1743.

Justin
March 2, 2007 - 01:42 pm
Eloise;the Medici Timeline you gave us is an effective way to learn what is to come. It is good orientation for the period of the Renaissance. Thank you.

Fifi le Beau
March 2, 2007 - 09:23 pm
Claire, so sorry to hear you have the shingles. Hope you are feeling better.

Take care,

Fifi

robert b. iadeluca
March 3, 2007 - 04:19 am
Reactions to Post 341?

Robby

Rich7
March 3, 2007 - 08:18 am
"When Piero died Lorenzo found himself the richest man in Florence, perhaps in Italy. The management of his fortune and his business might have been a sufficient burden for his young shoulders and the Republic had now a chance to reassert its authority. But the clients, debtors, friends, and appointees of the Medici were so numerous and so anxious for the continuance of Medicean rule that, two days after Piero's death, a deputation of leading citizens waited upon Lorenzo at his home and asked him to assume the guidance of the state."

Reminds me of the successive re-elections of Franklin Roosevelt in the depression and war years. The people (for the most part) recognized a strong hand on the helm and could not imagine anyone else being in charge in those times.

Claire, Get better.

Rich

Malryn
March 4, 2007 - 07:21 am

"Whoever wants to be happy, let him be so:
about tomorrow there's no knowing."

—Lorenzo The Magnificent

robert b. iadeluca
March 4, 2007 - 07:22 am
"The citizens acquiesced because prosperity continued.

"When Galeazzo Maria Sforza, Duke of Milan, visited Florence in 1471, he was amazed at the signs of wealth in the city and still more at the art that Cosimo, Piero, and Lorenzo had gathered in the Medici palace and gardens.

"Here already was a museum of statuary, vases, gems, paintings, illuminated manuscripts, and architectural remains. Galeazzo averred that he had seen a greater number of the paintings in this one collection than in all the rest of Italy. So far had Florence forged ahead in this characteristic art of the Renaissance.

"The Medici fortunes were further enhanced when Lorenzo led a delegation of Florentines to Rome to congratulate Sixtua IV on his elevation to the papacy. Sixtus responded by renewing the Medici management of the papal finances.

"Five years earlier Piero had obtained for his house the lucrative right to develop the papal mines near Civitavecchia which produced the precious alum used in dyeing and finishing cloth.

"Soon after his return from Rome Lorenzo met, not too successfully, his first major crisis. An alum mine in the district of Volterra -- a part of the Florentine dominion -- had been leased to private contractors probably connected with the Medici. When it proved extremely lucrative the citizens of Volterra claimed a share of the profits for their municipal revenue.

"The contractors protested and appealed to the Florentine Signory. The Signory doubled the problem by decreeing that the profits should go to the general treasury of the whole Florentine state. Volterra denounced the decree, declared its independence, and put to death several citizens hwo opposed the secession.

"In the Council of Florence Tommaso Soderini recommended conciliatory measures. Lorenzo rejected them on the ground that they would encourage incurrection and secession elsewhere. His advice was taken, the revolt was suppressed by force and the Florentine mercenaries, getting out of hand, sacked the rebellious city.

"Lorenzo hurried down to Volterra and labored to restore order and make amends but the affair remained a blot on his record."

Your comments, please?

Robby

Malryn
March 4, 2007 - 07:39 am

Lorenzo de Medici: tomb

Basilica di San Lorenzo

Basilica: San Lorenzo, Firenze

Malryn
March 4, 2007 - 07:42 am

Map of Volterra

Justin
March 4, 2007 - 03:58 pm
Once the genie is let out of the bottle it is very hard to stuff him back in. We continue to be afflicted with that problem.

JoanK
March 5, 2007 - 12:26 am
""The citizens acquiesced because prosperity continued".

How often have we seen THAT in our reading! Remember Augustus Ceasar.

robert b. iadeluca
March 5, 2007 - 04:46 am
Lorenzo The Magnificent

robert b. iadeluca
March 5, 2007 - 04:56 am
"He ruled now with a milder hand than in his youth. He had just entered the thirties but men matured quickly in the hothouse of the Renaissance.

"He was not handsome. His large flat nose overhung his upper lip and then turned outward curiously. His complexion was dark and his stern brow and heavy jaw belied the geniality of his spirit, the charm of his courtesy, the vivacity of his wit, and poetic sensitivity of his mind. Tall, broad-shouldered and robust, he looked more like an athlete than a statesman and indeed he was seldom surpassed in physical games.

"He carried himself with the moderate dignity indispensable to his station but in private he made his many friends immediately forget his power and his wealth. Like his son Leo X he enjoyed the subtlest art and the simplest buffoons.

"He was a humorist with Pulci, a poet with Politian, a scholar with Landino, a philosopher with Ficino, a mystic with Pico, an esthete with Botticelli, a musician with Squarcialupi, a reveler with the gayest in festival time.

"He wrote to Ficino:-'When my mind is disturbed with the tumults of public business and my ears are stunned with the clamors of turbulent citizens, how could I support such contention unless I found relaxation in science' -- by which he meant the pursuit of knowldge in all its forms."

Robby

Justin
March 5, 2007 - 01:29 pm
The first social multitasker.

Malryn
March 5, 2007 - 02:14 pm

Sounds like a real Renaissance Man to me!

robert b. iadeluca
March 5, 2007 - 04:59 pm
"Lorenzo's esthetic sensibilities were too keen for his morals.

"Poetry was one of his prime devotions and his compositions rivaled the best of his time. While his only superior, Politian, still hesitated between Latin and Italian, Lorenzo's verses restored to the vernacular the literary primacy tht Dante had established and the humanists had overthrown.

"He preferred Petrarch's sonnets to the love poetry of the Latin classics, thought he could read these easily in the original, and more than once he himself composed a sonnet that might have graced Petrarch's Canzoniere.

"But he did not take poetic love too seriously. He wrote with finer sincerity about the rural scenes that gave exercise to his limbs and peace to his mind. His best poems celebrate the woods and streams, trees and flowers, flocks and shepherds, of the countryside. Sometimes he wrote humorous pieces in terza rima that lifted the simple languge of the peasantry into sprightly verse.

"Sometimes he composed satirical farces Rabelaisianly free. Then, again, a religious play for his children and some hyumns that catch here and there a note of honest piety.

"But his most characteristic poems were the Canti carnascialeschi -- Carnival Songs -- written to be sung in pfestival time and mood, and expressing the legitimacy of pleasure and the discourtesy of maidenly prudence.

"Nothing could better illustrate the morals and manners, the complexity and diversity of the Italian Renaissance than the picture of its most central character ruling a state -- managing a fortune -- jousting in tournament -- writing excellent poetry -- supporting artists and authors with discriminating patronage -- minglling at ease with scholars and philosophers -- peasants and buffoons -- marching in pageants -- singing bawdy songs -- composing tender huymns -- playing with mistresses -- begetting a pope -- and honored throughout Europe as the greatest and noblest Italian of his time."

Robby

Justin
March 5, 2007 - 07:21 pm
I try to keep in mind that he put his pants on one leg at a time just as the rest of us do.

Fifi le Beau
March 5, 2007 - 08:55 pm
Lorenzo according to his description was as ugly as a mud fence, but that didn't matter to a man who had control of the Papal treasury. All the things he was involved in were made possible by the use of the wealth of others, which in turn made him wealthy with little or no effort.

Frank Herbert said, "Control the coinage and the courts, let the rabble have the rest. If you want profits, you must rule."

Lorenzo ruled. Here is a link to images of Lorenzo. With all the portraits, busts, and statues one could think him a poser.

Having athletic grace is an asset to any man even if you have to put a bag over his head to take him out in public.

His name is still marketed today in Italy. One can attend the Lorenzo de' Medici school to study art and learn Italian. He has his own Montblanc pen. There is Balsamic vinegar. The list goes on......

http://images.google.com/images?svnum=10&hl=en&lr=&q=Lorenzo+de+Medici&btnG=Search

Fifi

Fifi le Beau
March 5, 2007 - 09:13 pm
Here is a poem by Lorenzo titled, "Carnival Song".

It seemed amateurish to me, and I've heard better sung or recited by peasants who never received either claim nor glory for their works.

It does show his love of wine and desire, and devil take the hindsight attitude. Fine for a man but not always good for a woman.

My opinion of course.

http://www.monadnock.net/translations/it_carnival.html

Fifi

Justin
March 5, 2007 - 11:16 pm
Lorenzo's "Carnival Song" may exhibit better control of meter in Italian. The verses do not work very well in English translation.

Malryn
March 5, 2007 - 11:50 pm

Lorenzo, canivale, and masks, etc.


From the Catholic Encyclopedia.

"Posterity has agreed to call Lorenzo "the Magnificent", but this is, in part, a misunderstanding of the Italian title "magnifico", which was given to all the members of his family, and, indeed, during the fifteenth century, applied to most persons of importance in Italy to whom the higher title of "Excellence" did not pertain. Lorenzo sums up the finest culture of the early Renaissance in his own person. Unlike many of the humanists of his epoch, he throughly appreciated the great Italian classics of the two preceding centuries; in his youth he wrote a famous epistle on the subject to Federigo of Aragon, which accompanied a collection of early Italian lyrics. His own poems in the vernacular rank very high in the literature of the fifteenth century. They are remarkably varied in style and subject, ranging from Petrarcan canzoni and sonnets with a prose commentary in imitation of the "Vita Nuova" to the semiparody of Dante entitled "I Beoni". His canzoni a ballo, the popular dancing songs of the Florentines, have the true lyrical note. Especially admirable are his compositions in ottaava rima: the "Caccia col Falcone", with its keen feeling for nature; the "Ambra", a mythological fable of the Florentine country-side; and the "Nencia da Barberino:, an idyllic picture of rustic love. His "Altercazione", six cantos in terza rima, discusses the nature of true felicity, and closes in an impressive prayer to God, somewhat Platonic in tone. To purely religious poetry belong his "Laude", and a miracle-play, the "Rapresentazione di san Giovanni e san Paolo", with a curiously modern appreciation of the Emperor Julian. In striking contrast to these are his carnival-songs, canti carnascialeschi, so immoral as to lend colour to the accusation that he strove to undermine the morality of the Florentines in order the more easily to enslave them.

"At the close of his life, Lorenzo was brought into conflict with Savonarola, but the legend of the latter refusing him absolution on his deathbed unless he restored liberty to Florence is now generally rejected by historians. By his wife, Clarice Orsini, Lorenzo had three sons: Piero, Giuliano, and Giovanni, of whom the third rose to the papacy as Leo X. Although a man of immoral life, his relations with his family show him under a favourable aspect, and, in a letter from one of the ladies of the Mantuan court, a charming account is given of how, on his way to the congress of Cremona in 1483, Lorenzo visited the Gonzaga children and sat among them in their nursery

robert b. iadeluca
March 6, 2007 - 04:39 am
Literature: The Age of Politian

robert b. iadeluca
March 6, 2007 - 04:43 am
"Encouraged by his aid and example, Florentine men of letters now wrote more and more of their works in Italian.

"Slowly they formed that literary Tuscan which became the model and standard of the whole peninsula -- Said the patriotic Varchi:-'the sweetest, richest, and most cultured, not only of all the languages of Italy but of all the tongues that are known today.'"

When I was a young fellow, a fellow born in France said to me:-"German is the language of command, English is the language of commerce, French is the language of diplomacy, and Italian is the language of beauty."

Robby

Bubble
March 6, 2007 - 08:06 am
It's the language of lovers, of exuberance, of superlatives. E bello? No, è belissimo! E bellississimo!

winsum
March 6, 2007 - 02:34 pm
and the language of most of the operas. Even Mozart used it for opera. lots of emphasis on the vowels makes it easy to sing.

Mallylee
March 7, 2007 - 03:04 am
Should 'Clarice' be pronounced 'ClarEEchay' ?

Mallylee
March 7, 2007 - 03:10 am
In any nation I understand, it invariably happens that one language or dialect becomes the language of power. This is not the same as the language of poetry which, since the Romantics, anyway, has drawn from the dialects of the common people. (e.g Burns, Wordsworth. John Betjeman, lots more)

"Slowly they formed that literary Tuscan which became the model and standard of the whole peninsula -- Said the patriotic Varchi:-'the sweetest, richest, and most cultured, not only of all the languages of Italy but of all the tongues that are known today.'"

Traude S
March 7, 2007 - 01:43 pm
MALLYLEE, you are right, that is the pronunciation of 'Clarice'. The same applies to 'Beatrice'.
It doesn't sound exactly like 'ay', though, but lighter, shorter, as in "O Sole mio", "Signore", "va bene".

'c' before 'e' and 'i' is always pronounced as 'dsch', as in "tre cento", for example.

If an 'h' appears between 'c' and 'e'. or 'i', the pronunciation changes to "k" , as in Michelangelo, or "mi chiamano" (= they are calling me).
The same holds true for "bruschetta". BruSHetta is incorrect.

Sorry to go to such lengths but you had asked.

robert b. iadeluca
March 7, 2007 - 05:57 pm
Architecture and Sculpture: The Age of Verrocchio

robert b. iadeluca
March 7, 2007 - 06:02 pm
"Lorenzo continued enthusiastically the Medicean tradition of suppporting art.

Wrote his contemporary Valori:-'He was such an admirer of all the remains of antiquity that there was nothing with which he was more delighted. Those who wished to oblige him were accustomed to collect from every part of the world, medals, coins, statues, busts, and whatever else bore the stamp' of ancient Greece or Rome.

"Uniting his architectural and sculptural collections with those left by Cosimo and Piero, he placed them in a garden between the Medici palace and the monastery of San Marco and admitted to them all responsible scholars and visitors. To students who showed application and promise -- among whom was the young Michelangelo -- he gave a stipend for their maintenance and awards for special proficiency."

Robby

winsum
March 7, 2007 - 08:54 pm
Lorenzo thank you. . .and I don't think he was ugly either. there are so many portraits of him. Evidently there were those who agreed with me.

Malryn
March 7, 2007 - 09:04 pm

Antonio Verrocchio

winsum
March 7, 2007 - 09:16 pm
check out the draperies. they are an abstractiion in themselves. His Young David seems right except that the head is so large but he got the message over.

I like these thanks Mal

Glaire

Justin
March 7, 2007 - 11:13 pm
Verrochio was a better sculptor than a painter however, he had a large bottega and employed many apprentices.Luckily, one of those apprentices was Leonardo Da Vinci who put some faces on the angels in the lower left.

There are several sculptures by Verrochio that carry the tradition of Donatello and in many respects push the envelope further in the direction of naturalism. There is a bust of a young woman in the Bargello,(she is thought to be one of Lorenzo's sweeties), that captures feminine protective movement not seen before in sculpture.

Verrochio has a pair in a niche at Or San Michelle. The niche was designed by Donatello for a single work however, when the niche was sold to a merchant's association they moved the Donatello and replaced it with a pair-Christ and Thomas. The pair doesn't fit perfectly. Thomas's foot reaches out into our space. It is the first time in sculpture that our space is invaded. The practice will appear again in the Baroque when Bernini will enlarge upon the practice.

robert b. iadeluca
March 8, 2007 - 04:26 am
"The key event in the art history of Lorenzo's regime was the publication of Vitrovius' treatise De architectura (first century B.C.) which Poggio had unearthed in the monastery of St. Gall some seventy years before.

"Lorenzo succumbed completely to that rigid classic and used his influence to spread the style of Imperial Rome. Perhaps in this matter he did as much harm as good for he discouraged in architecture what he was fruitfully practicing in literature -- the development of native forms.

"But his spirit was generous. Through his encouragement, and in many cases with his funds, Florence was now adorned with elegant civic buildings and private residences. He completed the church of San Lorenzo and the abbey of Fiesole and he engaged Giuliano da Sangallo to design a monastery outside the San Gallo gate that gave the architect his name.

"Giuliano built for him a stately villa at Poggio a Caiano and so handsomely that Lorenzo recommended him when King Ferdinand of Naples asked him for an archiatect. How well such artists loved him appears in the subsequent generosity of Giuliano who sent as presents to Lorenzo the gifts that Ferrante gave him -- a bust of the Emperor Hadrian, a Sleeping Cupid, and other ancient sculptures.

"Lorenzo added these to the collections in his garden which were later to form the nucleus of the statuary in the Uffizi Gallery."

Robby

Justin
March 8, 2007 - 02:23 pm
It is nice that Vitruvius and his ten books on Architecture come in here uner the sponsorship of the Medici. Usually I find myself discussing him during the reign of Augustus. Scholars tend to argue about whether he was active in Late Augustus or Early Augustus. But that is trivial. The man wrote, not well, not as Cicero, but he wrote about a wide range of topics on architecture and we are all indebted to him today for his classical rules. His books are filled with advice on the use of lime, on stone, sand and brick, on timber, and on building city walls. He writes about dwelling houses, symmetry in temples, and the proportions of intercolumniations. He writes about the origins and ornaments of the orders, the shape of the cella and pronaos, the facing of temples, the form of basilicas, the plans for theatres, harmonics, harbours and breakwaters and shipyards, finding and testing of good water etc. The man is a veritable building encyclopedia. By bringing his designs to the fore during the Renaissance and in Florence the Medici were able to influence greatly the design of the city and it's buildings. The town is Roman but it is more than that it is restrained and modernized Roman. It is that modification that makes the architecture of Florence so unique. In France,Germany, The Netherlands, and England the architecture is advanced Gothic. In Italy and especially in Florence it is Italian Renaissance, it is modified Romanesque. It is Vitruvian.

Éloïse De Pelteau
March 8, 2007 - 03:20 pm
SYMMETRY AND PROPORTION

"Without symmetry and proportion there can be no principles in the design of any temple; that is, if there is no precise relation between its members, as in the case of those of a well shaped man."

Vitruvius, Book III, Chap. 1

". . . if a man be placed flat on his back, with his hands and feet extended, and a pair of compasses centered at his navel . . . the fingers and toes of his two hands and feet will touch the circumference of a circle described therefrom. And just as the human body yields a circular outline, so too a square figure may be found from it. For if we measure the distance from the soles of the feet to the top of the head, and then apply that measure to the outstretched arms, the breadth will be found to be the same as the height . . ."


Does this apply to art in general? Because modern art doesn't seem to be always symmetrical and I wonder if it is why I don't appreciate it. Perhaps Claire can shed a light on this.

Very interesting Justin.

winsum
March 8, 2007 - 03:38 pm
supposedly the span of the arms extended should equal the height of a person but seldom does.

There is a rule which helps me organize space when I think of it. It's called The Golden Mean and all it is is dividing each side into thirds vertically and horizontally. I'm not sure they did it horizontally but I do. It keeps me honest. That way you avoid putting the center of interest into the middle. One sure way to make a composition static is to center it. It's probably not like architecture in that way. I wouldn't know about it via Vitruvious theory.

winsum
March 8, 2007 - 03:43 pm
I'm always into "how do they do that"

and the suggestion that Vitrius was a walking encyclopedia on methods intrigues me.

claire

winsum
March 8, 2007 - 04:03 pm
an interesting article about ancestoral methods still used in Kampung.

http://tinyurl.com/2ecu8m

this is a nice site. I subscribe.

Claire

Traude S
March 8, 2007 - 05:41 pm
JUSTIN, your commentary is always a special enrichment for me because it brings out facts, angles and nuances I had not considered dutifully or carefully enough. Special thanks.

PS Italy is wonderful, and there are countless heady experiences which can make focusing a little difficult for an impressionable youth ...

Justin
March 8, 2007 - 08:02 pm
Leonardo provided us with a drawing of a man with arms and legs spread as Vitruvius describes. It might be interesting to bring that drawing up and to measure the elements suggested and see if Leonardo gave us the proportions described.

Malryn
March 8, 2007 - 08:18 pm

Vitruvian Man by Leonardo

winsum
March 8, 2007 - 10:13 pm
it depends upon the angle of the arms and legs. I wonder what it is.

Justin
March 8, 2007 - 11:40 pm
In this case it is precisely 4 and 5/8th inches each way. The chords form a perfect square except they exceed the circumference. .

Bubble
March 9, 2007 - 04:54 am
Thanks for that great post Justin. Florence is really unique and so enjoyable even without being aware of the intricaties of architecture. I'd love to go back to Italy and have a more discerned look around.

robert b. iadeluca
March 9, 2007 - 05:14 am
"Sculpture and architecture tended to run in families -- the della Robbias, the Sangalli, the Rossellini, the Pollaiuoli.

"Antonio Pollaiuoli, uncle of Simone, learned accuracy and delicacy of design as a goldsmith in the studio of his father Iacopo. The bronze, silver and gold products of Antonio made him the Cellini of his time and a favorite of Lorenzo, the churches, the Signory and the guilds.

"Noting how rarely such small objects retained the name of their maker, and sharing the Renaissance mirage of immortal fame, Antonio turned to sculpture and cast in bronze two magnificent figures of Hercules, rivaling the strained power of Michelangelo's Captives and the tortured passion of the Laocoon.

"Passing to painting, he told the story of Hercules in three murals for the Medici palace, challenged Botticelli in Apollo and Daphne, and equaled the absurdity of a hundred artists in showing how calmly St. Sebastian could receive into his flawless body the arrows launched at him by leisurely bowmen.

"In his final years Antonio returned to sculpture and cast for the old church of St. Peter in Rome two superb sepulchral monuments -- of Sixtus IV and Innocent VIII -- with a vigor of chiseling anb a precision of anatomy again presaging Michelangelo."

Robby

Bubble
March 9, 2007 - 05:22 am
So many good artists concentrated in that time period. I wonder why? People were more appreciative then?

BaBi
March 9, 2007 - 10:29 am
I think, BUBBLE, that when people become prosperous enough that they no longer have to worry about the necessities, then they have money, time and inclination to search for beauty as well.

Babi

Justin
March 9, 2007 - 01:12 pm
BaBi, you have been reading Durant's elements of civilization again, you rascal you.You expressed the very essence, the core of Durant's thesis. When one no longer must be concerned about the necessities, there is time for art.

Bubble
March 9, 2007 - 02:04 pm
BaBi, I agree with you that when the necessities for daily life are provided, there is time for art. But that does mean the awakening of so much talent? Is it the orders, the demand for art that creates the talent?

winsum
March 9, 2007 - 02:12 pm
1. Enhancement of religious symbols attracts and keeps worshipers

2. Institutions with the resources to pay for it i.e religious and royal.

3. Durants explanation regarding trade as an economic boost in the fourteenth and fifteen centuries so that individuals can afford to support art to enhance their power and importance. . .They are willing to pay for it. Look at Lorenzo.

Mallylee
March 9, 2007 - 02:52 pm
Traude, I paid a lot of attention to what you wrote about Italian pronunciation. I spoke the sounds aloud. I am very interested in the sounds of languages. I am sure I understand what you said about the last syllable of Clarice and Beatrice being short. Indeed 'ay' would be too long a sound. I used to know phonetic 'alphabet' but have long forgotten it. Thanks

Malryn
March 9, 2007 - 03:59 pm

It is not just time for art because people are properous; it is that prosperous people have money to subsidize artists and what they do. Artists of all kinds have to eat, you know.

Art can be as much a status symbol as property. A person who is rich enough to susidize artists and collect fine art, gains yet another feather in his (or her) expensive cap.

Mal

Malryn
March 9, 2007 - 04:22 pm

THE ITALIAN LANGUAGE

While other high school students were learning to speak and read Spanish (a language I have yet to study), I was learning to speak, read and sing Italian.

I am a retired musician at this moment. My beautiful soprano voice has gone to the cellar; my hands are too crippled with arthritis for me to play the piano (to my satisfaction) any more, I have not forgotten the lovely operatic arias I sang in Italian, however. Italian is easy to sing because every syllable is pronounced. I've sung art songs and arias in French, Italian, German, Spanish and Russian.. I know only rudiments and pronunciation of the last three languages. One of my favorites:--
 
Voi che sapete 
che cosa è amor, 
donne vedete 
s'io l'ho nel cor. 
Quello ch'io provo 
vi ridirò; 
è per me nuovo, 
capir nol so. 
Sento un affetto 
pien di desir, 
ch'ora è diletto, 
ch'ora è martir. 
Gelo, e poi sento 
l'alma avvampar, 
e in un momento 
torno a gelar. 
Ricero un bene 
fuori di me. 
Non so ch'il tiene, 
non so cos'è. 
Sospiro e gemo 
senza voler, 
palpito e tremo 
senza saper. 
Non trovo pace 
notte, nè dì, 
ma pur mi piace 
languir così. 
Vio che sapete 
che cosa è amor, 
donne, vedete 
s'io l'ho nel cor.
Thie aria is from Le Nozze di Figaro by Mozart. I have sung it in concert and otherwise hundreds of times. Pronounce the words as TRAUDE described , and you won't have any trouble worrying about how to speak this language "notte, ne di."

Mal

winsum
March 9, 2007 - 08:07 pm
but only for my own pleasure. My mother was a singer but my voice never developed properly even with six years of training. The larnx and diaphame finely met in my seventies and then it was fun, so easy to just let it roll out. So at this age, yours too, I still enjoy singing

Claire

robert b. iadeluca
March 10, 2007 - 01:03 am
Painting

robert b. iadeluca
March 10, 2007 - 01:12 am
"Verrocchio's thriving studio was characteristic of Renaissance Florence -- it united all the arts in one workshop, sometimes in one man.

"In the same bottega one artist might be designing a church or a palace -- another might be carving or casting a statue -- another sketching or painting a picture -- another cutting or setting gems -- another carving or inlaying ivory or wood -- or fusing or beating metal -- or fashioning floats and pennons for a festival procession.

"Men like Verrocchio, Leonardo, or Michelangelo could do any of these. Florence had many such studios and art students were wild in the streets, or lived Bohemianly in the tenements or became rich men honored by popes and princes as inspirted spirits beyond price and -- like Cellini -- above the law. More than any other city except Athens, Florence attached importance to art and artists, talked and fought about them, and told anecdotes about them as we do now of actors and actresses.

"It was Renaissance Florence that formed the romantic concept of the genius -- the man inspired by a divine spirit (the Latin genius) dwelling within him."

Robby

Mallylee
March 10, 2007 - 03:38 am
Thank you Mal. I enjoyed that , making use of Traude's advice(Say, Ye who borrow love's witching spell )

BaBi
March 10, 2007 - 08:19 am
I can't explain why, BUBBLE, but I have observed other instances in history where a seeming wave of movers and shakers in some realm all appear withint the same century.

Consider the appearance within the same general time frame, without any contact or knowledge of one another, of Confucius, Buddha, Zoroaster, Socrates and Plato, and the later Hebrew prophets. This is, IMO, far beyond coincidence. What it is, I won't venture to say.

Babi

winsum
March 10, 2007 - 09:12 am
the creative urge can be expressed in any medium which the artist chooses to pursue. Every time I got stale I'd switch. there were some that I couldn't do although I tried as in wood working and glass blowing,jewelry at the park.

I didn't have torch equipment It was interesting pasting old keys on a slab of brass which accepted metals such as nickel silver and copper. I wear the keys now and then as a pendant and people always remark. It's a kind of sculpture. but I did all traditional graphic media and clay and sculpture within the clay area as well. I'm overloaded with all that stuff but what can you do. it's a body of work. And I never quit painting, still at it.

So you hang on to it. Actually some may survive I guess and make me immortal.

Claire

robert b. iadeluca
March 10, 2007 - 02:15 pm
"It is worthy of note that Verrocchio's studio left no great sculptor (except one side of Leonardo) to carry on the master's excellence, but taught two painters of high degree -- Leonardo and Perugino -- and one of lesser but notable talent, Lorenzo di Credi.

"Painting was gradually ousting sculpture as the favorite art. Probably it was an advantage that the painters were uninstructed and uninhibited by the lost murals of antiquity. They knew that there had been such men as Apelles and Protogenes but few of them saw even the Alexandrian or Pompeian remnants of ancient painting.

"In this art there was no revival of antiquity and the continuity of the Middle Ages with the Renaissance was most visible. The line was devious but clear from the Byzantines to Duccio to Giotto to Fra Angelico to Leonardo to Raphael to Titian. So the painters, unlike the sculptors, had to forge through trial and error their own technology and style.

"Originality and experiment were forced upon them. They labored over the details of human, animal, and plant anatomy. They tried circular, triangular, or other schemes of composition. They explored the tricks of perspective and the illusions of chiaroscuro to give depth to their backgrounds and body to their figures.

"They scoured the streets for Apostles anbd Virgins and drew from models clothed or nude. They passed from fresco to tempera and back again and appropriated the new techniques of oil painting introduced into northern Italy by Rogier van der Weyden and Antonio de Messina. As their skill and courage grew and their lay patrons multiplied, they added to the old religious subjects the stories of classic mythology and the pagan glories of the flesh.

"They took Nature into the studio or betook themselves to Nature. Nothing human or natural seemed in their view alien to art, no face so ugly but art culd reveal its illuminating significance.

"They recorded the world and when war and politics had made Italy a prison and a ruin, the painters left behind them the line and color, the life and passion, of the Renaissance."

Powerful stuff here! Your comments?

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
March 10, 2007 - 03:01 pm
Painting to me is more powerful than sculpture to transmit a message beyond the reality of a marble figure, it spells in detail, in the body movement, what the scene represents which is harder to reproduce in sculpture even if it can be done. Painting has a background, that by itself tells a story. A painting is more fragile, it can fade, even completely be obliterated by the elements or burn, but if the painter used the right material it can last for centuries. Personally I only came to appreciate sculpture later in life, preferring painting when at last I could finally see reproductions of great paintings in color in a magazine or an art book. I don't remember ever going to a museum until I started working.

Durant is quite an artist himself: "Nothing human or natural seemed in their view alien to art, no face so ugly but art could reveal its illuminating significance."

winsum
March 10, 2007 - 03:35 pm
The husband of my friend was a NASA guru, widely respected and considered super bright in all things. In the course of a conversation he said that ART IS BEAUTY. He couldn't have been more wrong and I sought to correct him. It was impossible to do so. This is a simplistic but common view . . . escapes logic and rationality even with the most educated and thoughtful.

Claire

winsum
March 10, 2007 - 03:49 pm
"fresco to tempera"

Fresco needs a wall as a base and is large. Tempra uses eggs as a medium and is found on small wooden panals. They are not mutually exclusive and the results and purposes for using them are quite different. The tempra colors are more luminous and are more apt to adorn alter pieces in multiples than a whole wall as one. The media required by economics and location could dictate the choice.

3kings
March 10, 2007 - 05:52 pm
I agree with the NASA Guru who said ART IS BEAUTY. If there is no beauty of form, line, pattern, colour, or symmetry, then it sure ain't ART. It is just " Noise ",

There is a small element of "beauty in the eye of the beholder", perhaps,but I think the human brain has been so hard wired' by ages of evolution, that individual differences are insignificant.

Those who claim to see beauty in a Picasso daub, for instance, are just kidding us, aren't you ?? BG. ++ Trevor.

Justin
March 10, 2007 - 07:53 pm
Art is the work itself.It is process. Art is what one does.It is creation.It is skill-human skill- applied to music, dance, painting sculpture, writing etc. The result is often described as "art" and in that context "art"is what Marcel Duchamp says it is. It is a reversed urinal hung on the wall. It is a bicycle seat and handle bar as Picasso says it is. It is Botticelli's Venus on the half shell.

robert b. iadeluca
March 10, 2007 - 08:50 pm
Sort of like the joke in psychological circles which says "intelligence is what intelligence tests measure."

Robby

gaj
March 10, 2007 - 09:21 pm
I see the word art as a verb and as a noun. As a verb it is the action of creating. As a noun it it the created work.
GinnyAnn

winsum
March 10, 2007 - 09:38 pm
re. Picasso . . . no

But you are typical . . .nuff said.

winsum
March 10, 2007 - 09:41 pm
Ginny ann. that makes sense.

we have a psychologist with us so let me suggest this as a definition and ask him to comment.

Art is the bridge to the subconscious, a sublimation.

Claire

winsum
March 10, 2007 - 10:24 pm
Art as a bridge to the subconcious

Jung has written about the universality of symbols in ancient art forms as with suns as circles etc. This would cetainly not be for any consious reason if it’s true.

My experience is that it starts out in terms of brain laterality as a right side INSIGHT. . . .a sudden idea which is then adopted by the more lineal left side which figures how to DO IT and interprets and in concert with the associatve right side expands it. There is a give and take between the processes the whole way through. It ends when I can’t think of anything more that it needs. When the creative spirit leaves.

As such it takes into account not only the basic problem solving style of the individual, associative as well as lineal but his/her experiences and attitudes. It’s all encompasing on the subconsious level and is eventually expressed as art on the consious level, sometimes referred to as a sublimation, an acceptable version of what otherwise may not be consiously acceptable

Clairifying . . .

Justin
March 10, 2007 - 10:54 pm
That's a nice description of the creative process, Clair. It is a little clinical for me, however, I accept that description and will rely on Robby for confirmation of the mechanics, as you suggest. When this process is eventually expressed on the conscious level it comes out looking very much like Picasso's bicyle seat and handle bars and sometimes like Rothko's patterns.

Bubble
March 11, 2007 - 01:52 am
Sculptures versus paintings? I find I more enjoy sculptures when my hands can participate in the process of absorbing. Sight is not enough for the glorious shapes of old fertility statues, or African warriors masks.

I am amazed at how creative artists could be at different era in developping new media, new techniques for their output.

Mallylee
March 11, 2007 - 02:26 am
Art is communication with own and other conscious and unconscious minds, and own and others' feelings.It's all about communication in various media.

Art is amoral, except that it must sincerely seek truth

robert b. iadeluca
March 11, 2007 - 06:09 am
"Art is the bridge to the subconscious, a sublimation."

That makes a good deal of sense to me, Claire. How often a person states that he knows nothing about art but says that he/she likes (or dislikes) the art but doesn't know why. Actually, of course, he does know why but the reason is buried in the subconscious. And I am finding more and more in my practice that our subconscious minds which really run our lives were developed early in childhood. They are emotional, rather than rational, reasons. See if you can relate any of your artistic likes or dislikes with childhood feelings.

A related thought -- gerontologists tell us that when we are older we have very much the same traits as when we were younger -- only more so.

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
March 11, 2007 - 06:33 am
Although I love art but it is one small part of what I enjoy doing. When I went to Quebec City for a Rodin exhibition, we spent the entire day there admiring his sculptures. I appreciate all these explanations about why and how a person can have more knowledge about art but also in the back of my mind, (subconscious) I don't want to disturb the spontaneous reaction that art produces in me. I resist cold analysis for fear of being less emotional about art. At least for me it is one of the last place where a little ignorance is better than lots of knowledge. Every time I go to Europe I spend at least one quarter of my time in museums and let my imagination run free to love or to hate what I see.

Bubble
March 11, 2007 - 08:26 am
I love Rodin's hands (called The Cathedral, I think), I like looking at hands in paintings, I like Gilbert Becaud's song "mes mains". Would that be because I was so much handled about as a child, Robby? I never thought of that explanation.

If the gerontologist is right, many octogenarians were brats in their childhood!

winsum
March 11, 2007 - 09:10 am
The only morality is that the artist must stick to his experience of creating and not be distracted into the business world. It's tempting. When I did do business the work belonged to others from the start . . .as in architectural renderings. That was OK but it no longer belonged to me. It had been pre-sold.

Justin I was trying to relate it to a process which could be understood that way. Metaphor is a good way to describe my art . . .I used bridge to the unconscious, not my construction, but one I adopted from someone else. Can't remember whom but it made good sense to me within my experience. Others may have another kind of experience.

Claire

winsum
March 11, 2007 - 09:13 am
about hands. I like them too as they appear in old works. I've noticed that modern representational artists seem to avoid them . . .feet as well.

PS I was a brat but I'm only 79 . . .lol

Claire

winsum
March 11, 2007 - 10:30 am
PAINTING AND SCULPTURE

are apples and oranges. Painting has color and one point of viewing whereas sculpture except for the modern plastic and old terra cotta works has none and three hundred and sixty points of view. I think of them as separate entities.

The clay sculptures I’ve made look different from at least four points of view. They are a dark dingy clay color, not my favorite but not terra cotta either and less likely to break or be damaged and from each point of view they look like separate different works. It’ a different experience.

Marble is so wonderfully tactile. My hands want to touch it as do others because at the Getty in Santa Monica there is a sign that asks you not to and one marble figure with a sign that lets you touch HER. LOL She’s touchable.

Justin
March 11, 2007 - 01:39 pm
Canova'a Pauline Borghese is a marble piece with tactile thrills. One afternoon I watched men approach the piece. Some are embarassed by it. Others squeeze her a little when the guard looks away.

Boucher made an interesting painting of the Murphy girl that encourages similar tactile thoughts.

Albrecht Durer made a worthwhile pencil sketch of a pair of hands.

Bubble
March 11, 2007 - 01:56 pm
I don't like the Murphy girl's hands... The Hands Praying are much more expressive

BaBi
March 11, 2007 - 02:27 pm
"Painting was gradually ousting sculpture as the favorite art. Probably it was an advantage that the painters were uninstructed and uninhibited by the lost murals of antiquity."

That point had never occurred to me before. Renaissance painters did not have to listen to antiquity-mad critics comparing their works (unfavorably, of course) to ancient Greek and Roman painters. I can see how the sculptors would find it harder to gain a following and patrons. Only the very, very good would surmount the competition.

Babi

Malryn
March 11, 2007 - 03:17 pm

Pauline Borghose by Canova

Girl Resting (Louise O'Murphy) by Francois Boucher

winsum
March 11, 2007 - 04:47 pm
thanks Mal this Pauline Borghose by Canova and that girl resting . . . . .LOL no wonder especially the second one. whut a but. . . how could the guards resist?

Justin
March 11, 2007 - 09:24 pm
Isn't that Murphy something else? The Canova faild to come up for me. I hope you all had better luck.

robert b. iadeluca
March 12, 2007 - 03:36 am
Botticelli

robert b. iadeluca
March 12, 2007 - 03:46 am
"Sandro Botticelli was as different from Ghirlandaio as ethereal fancy from physical fact.

"Alessandro's father, Mariano Filipepi, unable to persuade the boy that life would be impossible without reading, writing, and arithmetic, apprenticed him to the goldsmith Botticelli, whose name, through the affection of the pupil or the whim of history, became permanently attached to Sandro's own.

"From this bottega the lad passed at sixteen to that of Fra Filippo Lippi, who came to love the restless and impetuous youth. Filippos Fillippino later paintd Sandro as a sullen fellow with deep set eyes, salient nose, sensual fleshy mouth, flowing locks, purple cap, red mantele, and green hose. Who would have guessed such a man from the delicate fantasies that Botticell has left to the museums?

"Perhaps every artist must be a sensualist before he can paint ideally. He must know and love the body as the ultimate source and standard of the esthetic sense. Vasari describes Sandro as 'a merry fellow' who played pranks upon fellow artists and obtuse citizens.

"Doubtless, like all of us, he was many men, turned on one or another of his selves as occcasion required, and kept his real self a frightened secret from the world."

Robby

winsum
March 12, 2007 - 05:03 am
How about privacy. How about a personal world within which he had control? I believe that it's necessary for an artist to have that. a world of his/her own. It doesn't involve fear only distancing of distraction . a direction given to the use of creative energy. which can make worldly matters and all within it a distraction.



Claire

BaBi
March 12, 2007 - 05:53 am
"Doubtless, like all of us, he was many men, turned on one or another of his selves as occcasion required, and kept his real self a frightened secret from the world."

I am intrigued that Durant wrote "like all of us" when he described the real self as a "frightened secret from the world" Durant comes across as such a confidant positive man. That "like all of us" has a note of false modesty to it, don't you think?

Botticelli was the illustrator of Dante's Inferno! And they are marvelous. Take a look:

Boticelli & Inferno

Babi

winsum
March 12, 2007 - 08:59 am
and here is someone who looks very familiare to me.

Sylvester Who?

and here <the adoration of the WHO?

The group adoring the magi looks to be a little distracted like any other gathering at any other time around a political center.

winsum
March 12, 2007 - 09:08 am
Babi I think he knew he was a fraud. . . not a real historian. just showing off one of his many selves.

winsum
March 12, 2007 - 09:25 am
"wonderful" especially the design in this heavenly carousel

Malryn
March 12, 2007 - 10:02 am

We are here to discuss history, not to insult the work and character of a man described as a "Gentle Philosopher".

CUT IT OUT!

Mal

Justin
March 12, 2007 - 03:14 pm
Claire; Your images and inquiry of 434 were details of Sandra Botticelli's Adoration of the Magi. It's a large 40 by 50 panel in the Uffizi. It hangs incongruously, in the same room and right next to Venus on the Half Shell. That happens sometimes. Botticelli did some big stuff. The horse head in that work is not common. It comes from the work of Pisanello about fifty years prior to Botticelli. Pisanello successfully captured some heads a tails in his paintings. If you look at Ghirlandaio's animals, cows etc. you will see that they are idealized. That is more typical of the period. The Verrochio bronze of Colleoni is an exception.

Justin
March 12, 2007 - 03:30 pm
Before we leave Botticelli a word should be said about two things. He learned to create line from Lippi and in several of his works but particularly in his Portrait of a Young Man one can see in his edges the blessings of pure line. He has found an optimun edge between painterly and hard.

The other thing worth noting is that he established a body of allegorical painting for private patrons. His allegories are a mix of elements rather standard allegorical forms. They are a blend of a variety of allegories.

winsum
March 12, 2007 - 04:37 pm
I've bookmarked that site with all it's many sections and will go back often I really like this artist the best of all the ones we've met. His line is intrinsic and design is very rhythmic and beautiful. the site has not only the entire images in each case but many details and options of how to view them. A good one.

Claire

robert b. iadeluca
March 12, 2007 - 05:25 pm
"The Nativity in the National Gallery at London is Botticelli's final masterpiece, confused but colorful, and capturing for the last time his rhythmic grace.

"Here all seems to breathe a heavenly happiness. The ladies of the Spring return as winged angels, hailing the miraculous and saving birth, and dancing precariously on a bough suspended in space.

"After 1500 we have no paintings from his hand.

"He was only fifty-six and might have had some art left in him. But he yielded place to Leonardo and Michelangelo and lapsed into a morose poverty. The Medici who had been his mainstay gave him charity but they themselves were in a fallen state.

"He died alone and infirm, aged sixty-six, while the forgetful world hurried on."

Robby

JoanK
March 12, 2007 - 05:56 pm
The PBS series on the Medici gives Botticelli credit for moving painting from religeous to pagan themes. They sort of picture him as being part of an endless orgy in the Medici palace. (at least that is the impression I carried away).

winsum
March 12, 2007 - 07:25 pm
rhythmic grace. is a good way to describe his work. Justin you saw the fresco originals? and the line of the cartoon on the wall was visible?. . .I'm wondering if that was purposeful or in filling in the cartoon drawing his assistents didn't go over it, or only approached it.

I'm reminded of our Pissarro discussion in which it was noted that he defined his line work by not painting over it except transparently so that it showed through.

connections connections . . .just wondering.

Claire

EllieC1113
March 12, 2007 - 09:38 pm
I have been lurking here for the past few weeks. Finally borrowed the book from the library to catch up. Thanks for the links to the visual materials. They are beautiful.

One comment about Durant. My reaction to his writing is that it is too laden with value judgments. I have heard that the more modern scholarly historians will present the several political or philosophical factions in a historical period with a more even-handed approach. I think too much of Durant's value system intrudes in this work, also with the idea that "everything is moving 'forward,'" which ain't necessarily so. I'll look for examples of my point, as we go along.

While reading "Battle Cry of Freedom," I saw a very objective approach to both the North and the South (in the Civil War) and the complex motives of the individuals and factions. The historian who wrote that book, James MacPherson, follows a more modern approach to the subject.

winsum
March 12, 2007 - 09:52 pm
I agree. Durants writing style is a mix of journalism poetry and op-ed.

I read some where that he was a poet so now and the he turns a lovely phrase, but he's not consistent and very disorganized. It's confusing but having ducked in and out I've picked up a feeling for the time and place he is discussing and the ART is finally here. Justin offers so much and the images are beautiful in rgb which is light as in a slide rather than a picture. I'm enjoying this part very much.

Claire

Justin
March 12, 2007 - 11:23 pm
Claire: You are probably referring to the Liberal Arts fresco. That particular piece was discovered under a layer of paint on a wall in a villa outside Florence somewhere around 1900 or so. Several frescoes were discovered when the wall was stripped of upper layers. The wall was in bad condition so an attempt was made to transfer the frescoes to canvas. The Liberal arts transfer was successful but not without damage, The damage was covered with elements of the cartoon showing through. It can be seen at the bottom of work.

No one is quite sure what this allegory depicts. The liberal arts is only one of several possibilities. It could be Venus and the Three Graces or virtues.

The work resides in the Louvre now and is sometimes displayed because it's condition is delicate.

winsum
March 12, 2007 - 11:43 pm
http://tinyurl.com/2tc8ar i this the one justin

wow pilare worig. god golseeua

robert b. iadeluca
March 13, 2007 - 03:22 am
Good to have you with us, Ellie! Hope you participate more.

Robby

BaBi
March 13, 2007 - 12:50 pm
Ouch! MAL, no insult to Durant intended, I promise you.

History is more than a string of facts; a historian must also explore motivations and influences, analyze critical turning points, examine personal strengths and weaknesses. Durant does an excellent job of that.

Still, as Ellie pointed out, Durant does allow his personal judgments fairly free play throughout. IMO, one must bear the historians overt personal views in mind in evaluating any historical work. I think that is a fair and reasonable approach, don't you?

Babi

BAbi

winsum
March 13, 2007 - 12:55 pm
yes it is reasonable to expect a chronological and geographical unity as well. Especially so when there are so many volumes covering the subject. If you were to buy them you wouldn't know which ones in which to invest you'd have to get it all.

Claire

Justin
March 13, 2007 - 01:00 pm
Yes, Claire , that's the one.

Justin
March 13, 2007 - 01:25 pm
History without historian comment is much like reading a phone book. An historian interprets history for the reader in several ways. First he or she selects the items he wishes to talk about and which he thinks are significant. He then tells the facts as one tells a tale. The tale is designed to keep the reader interested. Quite frankly, it is an art form.

Once the reader has a clear understanding of the background of the artist-historian, the influences of his time and period, and the premises upon which he bases his examination of history, the reader is in a position to make judgements about the work. We readers bring our own backgrounds and prejudices to the feast and what we come away with after the encounter is a little understanding of the way things were in the past. We,in the Durant discussion, have an additional benefit, a desert of sorts. We get to express our reactions to the historian and his tale in writing to others who are reading and reacting to the same material. It's a wonderful feast. Let's enjoy it.

winsum
March 13, 2007 - 01:47 pm
. Let's enjoy it.

especially the access to images and the links. . . claire

Evelyn133
March 13, 2007 - 02:18 pm
I am enjoying it. I am reading the book along with you. And thank you, all, for posting such interesting Links to all those great pictures.

I am especially impressed with all knowledge possessed by so many of the people we are reading about. I think Lorenzo was a very interesting person. Can you imagine being able to sit down at a dinner table with some of these people? It would be mind boggling.

Evelyn

robert b. iadeluca
March 13, 2007 - 06:02 pm
Nice to hear from you, Evelyn. Keep posting!

Robby

JoanK
March 13, 2007 - 06:25 pm
"An historian interprets history for the reader in several ways. First he or she selects the items he wishes to talk about and which he thinks are significant. He then tells the facts as one tells a tale."

We have an interesting example of this in another book we're discussing: it seems all the records of the Dutch colonization of Manhattan were stored away and forgotten after the British captured it from the Dutch. Since the histories were written by the British and those influenced by them, our early colonization is taught as if it were all British. Now, reading this book, we have to think about the Dutch influence on the development of our culture.

ISLAND AT THE CENTER OF THE WORLD

robert b. iadeluca
March 14, 2007 - 03:37 am
Lorenzo Passes

robert b. iadeluca
March 14, 2007 - 03:43 am
"Lorenzo himself was not among the few who in these centuries reached old age.

"Like his father he suffered from arthritis and gout to which was added a stomach disorder that frequently caused him exhausting pain. He tried a dozen remedies and found nothing better than the passing alleviation given by warm mineral herbs.

"For some time before his death he perceived that he, who had preached the gospel of joy, had not much longer to live."

To which I might add a personal note that I am developing an arthritic pain in my right arm which is making my typing rather difficult. We will see what happens.

Robby

BaBi
March 14, 2007 - 05:37 am
"History without historian comment is much like reading a phone book."

Exactly, JUSTIN. That is what I was saying about history being more than a string of facts. And I am very much enjoying the history here..and the dessert.

Sorry to hear about the pain in your arm, ROBBY. I assume you are getting it checked out. When you know precisely what it is, I'm sure there will be several here with the same thing, who will be glad to give you all sorts of suggestions for amelioration. (Hey!, the old wives knew a thing or two.)

Babi

Malryn
March 14, 2007 - 05:54 am

Come on now, ROBBY. If I can type with tears in the rotor cuff of my right shoulder that cause pain right down to my wrist, and deformed, arthritis fingers on both hands (I can't straighten my left thumb) and a very severe spinal curvature that affects my whole aching back, then you'll be able to type as long as you want to.

Mal

Bubble
March 14, 2007 - 08:06 am
Robby, warm wraps...

What are warm mineral herbs? I know only mineral water.

winsum
March 14, 2007 - 08:26 am
sounds a little like carpel tunnel the nerve variety. for that You rest.

JoanK
March 14, 2007 - 03:53 pm
WINSOM: Did you get my e-mails? My stupid virus program says it stopped them. I can read your e-mails, but not reply. If you want, send me your phone no., and I'll call.

ROBBY: sorry for the inturruption. Let us know how your arm goes.

robert b. iadeluca
March 14, 2007 - 04:53 pm
I think it's a shoulder problem and the pain goes down to the wrist. I am taking Ibuprofen. Yesterday I had to eat with my left hand. Nothing is going to get in the way of my eating if I have to get down on my hands and knees next to my cat. I can still dance because that is done with my left arm.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 14, 2007 - 05:03 pm
"Lorenzo's wife died in 1488.

"Though he had been unfaithful to her, he sincerely mourned her loss and missed her helping hand. She had given him a numerous progeny of whom seven survived. He had sedulously supervised their education and in his later years he labored to guide them into marriages that might redound to the happiness of Florence as well as their own.

"The oldest son, Piero, was affianced to an Orsini to win friends in Rome.

"The youngest, Giuliano, married a sister of the duke of Savoy, received from Francis I the title of duke of Nemours and so helped to build a bridge between Florence and France.

"Giovanni, the second son, was directed into an ecclesiastical career and took to it amiably. He pleased everyone by his good nature, good manners, and good Latin. Lorenzo persuaded Innocent VIII to volate all precedents by making him a cardinal at fourteen.

"The Pope yielded for the same reason that made most marriages of royalty -- to bind one government to another in the amity of one blood."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 15, 2007 - 03:35 am
To know where we are and where we are going, please note the change in the GREEN quotes in the Heading.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 15, 2007 - 03:37 am
Savonarola and the Republic

1492-1534

robert b. iadeluca
March 15, 2007 - 03:38 am
The Prophet

robert b. iadeluca
March 15, 2007 - 03:56 am
"The advantage of hereditary rule is continuity. Its nemesis is mediocrity.

"Piero di Lorenzo succeeded without trouble to his father's power but his character and his misjudgments forfeited the popularity upon which the rule of the Medici had been based. He was endowed with a violent temper, a middling mind, a vacillating will, and admirable intentions.

"He continued Lorenzo's generosity to artists and men of letters but with less discrimination and tact. He was physically strong, excelled in sports, and took part more frequently and prominently in athletic competitions that Florence thought becoming to the head of an endangered state.

"It was among his many misfortunes that Lorenzo's enteprises and extravagance had depleted the citys treasure -- that the competition of British textiles was causing economic depression in Florence -- that Piero's Orsini wife turned up her Roman nose at the Florentines as a nation of shokeepers -- that the collateral branch of the Medici family, derived fromn Cosino's brother Lorenzo 'the Elder' began now to challenge the descendents of Cosimo, and led a party of opposition in the name of liberty.

"It was Piero's crowning misery that he was contemporary with Charles VIII in France who invaded Italy and of Savonarola who proposed to replace the Medici with Christ.

"Piero had not been built to withstand such strains."

Your comments, please?

Robby

Mallylee
March 15, 2007 - 04:06 am
Robby I trust you have been to see the doctor about the arm pain.

If it is arthritis. I have just read that diluted vinegar, sweetened with honey about 6 fl.ounces three times a day will dissolve any uric acid crystals in the joints, and one should ask the doctor if the treatment is suitable

Malryn
March 15, 2007 - 05:38 am

ROBBY, the honey and vinegar that Mallylee mentioned is an old-fashioned remedy that sometimes works.

In my case, when it got to the point where I couldn't lift my arm to fix my hair, I went to an orthopedist. Xrays were done, and the diagnosis was made. Physio-therapy was ordered, too. My advice is to get yourself to an orthopedist as soon as possible. I said no
to surgery, had therapy, and am much improved.

Mal

Malryn
March 15, 2007 - 05:42 am

ROBBY, I have some time on my hands and would be happy to type passages
from the Durants' book, and post them here until you have some relief from pain.

Let me know, please, here or by email.

Mal

BaBi
March 15, 2007 - 06:06 am
..the collateral branch of the Medici family, derived from Cosimo's brother Lorenzo 'the Elder' began now to challenge the descendents of Cosimo, and led a party of opposition in the name of liberty.

From the viewpoint of the Medicis, is this necessarily a bad thing? This is another branch of the Medicis, cousins. If their leader is better qualified than the bad tempered, vacillating and not too bright Piero, Florence might have been better off with a change in Medici leadership.

Babi

robert b. iadeluca
March 15, 2007 - 04:24 pm
I have been holding off from seeing a physician to see if it is improving or not. If not, in about a week, I will have it checked out.

If I find the typing much too difficult, I will accept your offer, Mal.

I am leaving for Richmond Saturday morning to visit a friend who is having a baby and will return Sunday night.

Robby

bluebird24
March 15, 2007 - 05:11 pm
http://www.abcgallery.com/C/correggio/correggio.html

click on pictures on left to make them big

robert b. iadeluca
March 16, 2007 - 03:30 am
"The Savonarola family came from Padua to Ferrara about 1440 when Michele Savonarola was invited by Niccolo III d'Este to be his court physician.

"Michael was a man of piety rare in medicine. He was wont to rebuke the Ferrarese for preferring romances to religion.

"His son Niccolo was a mediocre physician but Niccolo's wife Elena Bonacossi was a woman of strong character and high ideals. Girolamo was the third of their seven children. They set him in his turn to study medicine but he thought Thomas Aquinas more absorbing than anatomy and solitude with his books more pleasant than the sports of youth. At the University of Bologna he was horrified to find no student so poor as to do virtue reverence. He left the University and returned to his mother and solitude.

"He became self conscious, fretted over the thought of hell and the sinfulness of men. His earliest known composition was a poem denoucing the vices of Italy, including the popes and pledging himself to reform his country and his Church. He passed long hours in prayer and fasted so earnestly that his parnents mourned his emaciation.

"In 1474 he was stirred to even severe piety by the Lenten sermons of Fra Michele and he rejoiced to see many Ferrarese bringing masks, false hair, playing cards, unseemly pictures and other worldly apparatus to fling them upon a burning pyre in the market place.

"A year later, aged twenty-three, he fled secretly from home and entered a Dominican monastery."

Is a man of piety rare in medicine?

Robby

EllieC1113
March 16, 2007 - 12:04 pm
Robby, I'm sorry to hear about the terrible pain in your arm.

My comments on Durant's recent passages. "The advantage of hereditary rule is continuity. Its nemesis is mediocrity." So there is one advantage to hereditary rule, and one disadvantage. How about oligarchy as a phenomenon of those times? And very unequal distribution of wealth? Maybe that structure was the best they could hope for in those times. Continuity, stability, some sense of safety. I enjoy reading about the "dance" that went on during the period between ecclesiastical and secular thinking.

I think many people in medical fields have a sense of the sacred. Many scientists in other fields also consider the "transcendent" dimension of life. They had something about Einstein and his spiritual dimension on "Speaking of Faith" on National Public Radio.

Eleanor

BaBi
March 16, 2007 - 01:19 pm
"Michael was a man of piety rare in medicine."

That, ROBBY, is an excellent example of what we have been saying about Durant's insertion of personal opinion w/o adequate supporting facts. I assume he was basing the remark on the conflict of the times between religion and the emerging scientific approach to the world. The remark itself, however, lacks scientific support, doesn't it?

Babi

Malryn
March 16, 2007 - 02:51 pm

Whet's actually written in the book is:
"Michael was a man of piety rare in MEDICOS."

There are extensive notes and a large bibliography at the back of the book if anyone wants to research Durant's sources.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
March 16, 2007 - 04:53 pm
Mal is correct. My arm and fingers and gradually failing eyes are not always being accurate. You folks are going to have to watch me carefully from now on.

Robby

Evelyn133
March 16, 2007 - 07:04 pm
Robby,

I join Mal in offering my services to type passages from the book if you need help with typing.

Just let me know.

Evelyn

Fifi le Beau
March 16, 2007 - 09:51 pm
Babi, your statement....

"Michael was a man of piety rare in medicine."

That, ROBBY, is an excellent example of what we have been saying about Durant's insertion of personal opinion w/o adequate supporting facts.


Here is what the book says, "Michael was a man of piety rare in medicos; he was wont to rebuke the Ferrarese for preferring romances to religion."

That sentence has a number after it which means it is found in the notes at the back of the book. It actually came from Noyes 'Ferrara'. Now before you attack Noyes as inserting personal opinion wouldn't you have to read the book and discover what the material Noyes read and translated to make the quote.

That statement you quoted was not Durants words and he told us so with a footnote. He also told us where the words came from.

I don't understand the continual Durant bashing here, what is the purpose? There has to be a reason someone would join a discussion and spend their time attacking the writer, and accuse him falsely of inserting his personal opinion.

There is no way I would spend one minute of my time reading a writer that I did not trust to give me facts to the best of his ability, and for sure I would not waste my time discussing him. He would be in the trash can before the sun went down.

Babi statement continued.....

I assume he was basing the remark

You assumed wrong.

Fifi

Mallylee
March 17, 2007 - 02:19 am
bluebird thank you for the pics of Corregio's works. The 'general view of the abbess's room 'shows how one has to look up to higher realms... that towering painted ceiling.I am a little unhappy about Ganymede being abducted by Jove, not the painting, the theme.All very intersring.

Mallylee
March 17, 2007 - 02:22 am
Mal and Evelyn that's great of you thank you. Best wishes to Robby for speedy recovery

Mallylee
March 17, 2007 - 02:28 am
"Michael was a man of piety rare in medicos; he was wont to rebuke the Ferrarese for preferring romances to religion." I wonder if piety then was the same sort of experience as piety now. Now, there are so many different sorts of piety. Then , well was this before or after Martin Luther and Co? Also , piety now has to be extra pious in order to rationalise Galileo, Darwin and the Enlightenment ideas.

Mallylee
March 17, 2007 - 02:35 am
Fifi, I keep hoping that more interpretation will come into Durant's writings.For instance, I mean that e.g. 'piety' is not enough, there has to be some more definition of the ideas that underly the asceticism.

My own interest in Durant who does not seem to be my favourite sort of historiographer,I much prefer social history, is that I am lacking in sheer facts, which D seems to be providing and providig in colourful language.

robert b. iadeluca
March 17, 2007 - 05:02 am
It is now 8 a.m. (ET) and I am leaving for Richmond to visit a friend who is having a baby. I will be back home late Sunday night.

Any typing help you folks can give me is much appreciated.

Robby

BaBi
March 17, 2007 - 08:08 am
Thank you for the correction, MAL.

FIFI, I do not have the book, as I explained to Robby when I joined the discussion. I am following the discussion thru' his excerpts quoted in his posts. No footnotes for me to check. Cut me a little slack here, please.

Babi

Malryn
March 17, 2007 - 11:25 am

My advice to all the people here who do not have the Story of Civilization books is: Don't make strong statements about what Will Durant was and did until you get your hands on copies. They're cheap to buy on B and N or Amazon. Your used bookstore might have them.

Many times complaints published here and questions that are asked are well-answered in the book. Without the books you have no way of knowing this and sometimes founder in stretches of deep water that could hurt or embarrass you.

Time and length of paragraphs have led ROBBY and me (when I help him out) to shorten passages, that are quoted, without destroying the essence of the author's thought. We also, and ROBBY has posted this, change the format from long, long paragraphs, to short ones that are more easily read from a monitor screen.

In other words, what you see here is not necessarily what you'd see in the book.

About this prolonged criticizing of Durant: It serves no purpose, so, as I said before: CUT IT OUT!

Mal

Malryn
March 17, 2007 - 12:14 pm

Savonarola, continued: Page 144-145 hard cover copy.

He wrote a tender letter to his parents begging their forgiveness for disappointing the expectations they had had of his advancement in the world. When they importuned him to return he answered angrily: "Ye blind! //why do you still weep and lament? You hamper me, though you should rejoice . . . What can I say if you grieve yet, save that you are my sworn enemies and foes to Virtue? If so,then I say to you, "Get ye behind me, all ye who work evil!" (See note 8: Villari, "Savonarola", 129)

Six years he stayed in the Bologna convent. He proudly asked that the most humble tasks be given him, but his talent as an orator was discovered, and he was set to preaching. In 1481 he was transferred to San Marco in Florence, and was assigned to prech in the church of San Lorenzo. His sermons there proved unpopular ; they were to theological and didactic for a city that knew the eloquence and pollish of the humanists. His congregation dwindled week by week. The prior set him to instructing novices.

It was probably in the next five years that his final character was formed. As the intensity of his feelings and purposes increased they wrote themselves upon his features in the furrowed and frowning forehead, the thick lips tight with determination, the immense nose curving out as if to encompass the world, a countenance somber and severe, expressing an infinite capacity for love and hate, a small frame racked and haunted with visions, frustrated aspirations and introverted storms.

"I am still flesh like you," he wrote to his parents, "and the senses are unruly to reason, so that I must struggle cruelly to keep the Demon from leaping upon my back."

He fasted and flogged himself to tame what seemed to him the inherent corruption of human nature. Alone in his cell he glorified his solitude by conceiving himself as a battlefield of spirits hovering over him for evil or for good.

Finally, it seemed to him that angels, archangels, were speaking to him. He accepted their words as divine revelations; and suddenly he spoke to the world as a prophet chosen to be messenger of God.

He avidly absorbed the apocalyptic visions attributed to the Apostle John, and inherited the eschatalogy of the mystic Joachim of Flora. Like Joachim he announced that reign of Antichrist had come, that Satan had captured the world, that soon Christ would appear to begin His earthly rule, and that divine vengeance would engulf the tyrants, adulterors and atheists who seemed to dominate Italy.


Comments, anyone?

Evelyn133
March 17, 2007 - 01:28 pm
Unfortunately I will have to withdraw my offer to help with typing in case Robby's needs it....Perhaps another time.

Evelyn

Justin
March 17, 2007 - 02:37 pm
The atheists Savonarola refers to are the Humanists, an elite group of thinkers fostered by Lorenzo and his grandfather, Cosimo. The group was powered by the Platonic Academy and Marsilio Ficino who translatd Plato into Latin. Scholars from all over Europe were attracted to the academy and came to Florence. When Cenini set up a movable type printing press in Florence in the late third quarter of the quatrocento, the means became available to publish and distribute the great Medicean collection of Greek and Latin manuscripts.

Savonarola called it all humbug and after much ado he hung from a gibbet with a fire under his feet. I don't suppose it was a pleasant death but the wages of opposition to his superiors, the Popes were severe. The Papacy was enjoying itself in this period and no recalcitrant underling would be allowed to challenge a Pope's right to do as he chose.

Malryn
March 17, 2007 - 05:07 pm

Page 145-146 hard cover book

When his prior sent him to preach in Lombardy (1438), Savonarola abandoned his youthful pedagogic style, and cast his sermons into the form of denunciations of immorality, prophecies of doom, and calls to repentance. Thousands of people who could not have followed his earlier arguments listened with awe to the newly impassioned eloquence of a man who seemed to be speaking with authority.

Pico della Mirandola heard of the friar's success. He asked Lorenzo to suggest to the prior that Savonarola should be brought back to Florence. Savonarola returned. (1489). Two years later he was chosen prior of San Marco, and Lorenzo found in him an enemy more forthright than any that had ever crossed his path.

Florence was surprised to discover that the swarthy preacher who a decade before had chilled them with argument, could now awe them with apocalyptic fantasies, thrill them with vivid descriptions of the paganism, corruption and immorality of their neighbors, lift up their souls to repentance and hope, and renew in them the full intensity of the faith that had inspired and terrified their youth.

"Ye; women, who glory in your ornaments, your hair, your hands, I will tell you you are all ugly. Would you see true beauty? Look at the pious man or woman in whom spirit dominnates matter, watch him when he prays, when a ray of the divine beauty glows upon him when his prayer is ended. You will see the beauty of God shining in his face, you will behold it as if were the face of an angel."

Men marveled at his courage. He flayed the clergy and the papacy more than the laity, the princes more than the people, and a note of political radicaliam warmed the hearts of the poor:
In these days there is no grace, no gift of the Holy Spirit that may not be bought or sold. On the other hand, the poor are oppressed by grievous burdens, and when they are called to pay sums beyond their means the rich cry unto them, "Give me the rest!"

There be some who, having an income of fifty [florins per year] pay a tax on one hundred, while the rich pay little, since the taxes are regulated at their pleasure. Bethink ye well, O ye rich, for affliction shall smite ye. This city shall no more be called Florence but a den of thieves and bloodshed. Then shall ye all be poverty-stricken . . . and your name, O priests, shall be changed into a terror. (6 -- Simondi, 659; Villari, "Life and Times of Savonarola", 45; Beard, 116.)

It sounds like an old tune, doesn't it?

Justin
March 17, 2007 - 11:52 pm
Yea, an old tune replayed again and again. Poor Savonarola bets on the wrong horse. If he played ball with Lorenzo and the Guelfs he'd have been able to live a long life full of all the complaint his nature required of him. He could have expressed sadness because the poor were carrying the burden of government and the clergy were happily engaged in a little erotic activity. Everybody expects a little hanky panky among the clergy and the peasants expect to pay more than their share. But when he went after the big boys he was flirting with danger and it came to him in the Piazza della Signoria in front of the Palazzo Vecchio home of Cosimo) and flanked by sculptures of Philemon and Baucis. Later Michelangelo's marble David filled the same spot. The end came to him from the Borgia Pope with a charge of heresy.

There is a painting of the scene, no two or three paintings of the scene. If I can just remember the artist. Bartolomeo did a portrait. That's in the Academia. The Friar is a wild looking fellow.

The scene of his death is a reflection of the Friar's "Bonfire of the Vanities." Several times during his ministry he built piles of immoral books, lascivious pictures, masks, mirrors, dead hair, cosmetics, cards, dice, daggers, and consigned all to the flames in a holocaust of penitence.

Bubble
March 18, 2007 - 12:28 am
http://www.historyguide.org/intellect/savonarola.html

http://www.reformationhappens.com/pix/35

Malryn
March 18, 2007 - 05:11 am

Page 146.

After the priests, the bankers.
You have found many ways of making money, and many exchanges which you call lawful but which are most unjust, and you have corrupted the offices and magistrates of the city.

No one can persude you that usury ( interest ) is sinful, you defend it at the peril of your souls.

No one is ashamed at lending at usury; nay, those who do oherwise pass for fools. . . . Your brow is that of a whore, and you will not blush.

You say, a good and glad life lies in gain. Christ says, Blessed are the poor in spirit, for they shall inherit heaven. ( 7. In Roeder, 25. )

And a word for Lorenzo:
Tyrants are incorrigible because they are proud, because they love flattery, and will not restore ill-gotten gains. . . . They hearken not unto the poor, and neither, do they condemn the rich . . . .They corrupt voters, and farm out taxes to aggravate the burdens of the people (8. Villardi, Savonarola, 119)

The tyrant is wont to occupy the people with shows and festivals, in order that they may think of their own pastimes and not of his designs. And growing unused to the conduct of the commonwealth, may have the rein of government in his hands. (9. Symonds, Italian Literature, I, 386.)

Nor shall that dictatorship be excused on the ground that it finances literature and art. The literature and art, siad Savonarola, are pagan. The humanists merely pretend to be Christians. These ancient authors whom they so sedulously exhume are strangers to Christ and the Christian values, and their art is an idolatry of heathen gods, or a shameless display of naked women and men.

BaBi
March 18, 2007 - 06:15 am
Your point is well taken, MAL. I cannot adequately, or reasonably, comment without the book to refer to.

Babi

Malryn
March 18, 2007 - 08:42 am

Of course, you can, BABI. People have been doing exactly that for over five years. CLAIRE has been upset with Durant because, according to her and a few others, he and Ariel did not spend enough time on Art and Art History. They did not walk to the drummer's beat you might hear, CLAIRE.

It is my opinion that this is not a good enough reason for other people to jump on this negative bandwagon, Also in my opinion, these others miss important statements about history while they focus on what they don't like. I say, "If you don't like what the Durants say, don't waste your time on The Story of Civilization, find something and somebody else."

Mal
.

Malryn
March 18, 2007 - 08:55 am

The Renaissance by Will Durant (at Amazon.com, used and new hardcover from $1.54)

Malryn
March 18, 2007 - 01:52 pm

Lorenzo was disturbed. His grandfather had founded and enriched the monastery of San Marco. He himslef had given to it lavishly. It seemed to him unreasonable that a friar, who could know little of the difficulties of government, and who idealized a liberty that had been merely the right of the strong to use the weak without hindrance by law, should now undermine, from a Medici shrine, that public support upon which the political power of his family had been built. He tried to appease the friar; he went to Mass in San Marco's, and sent the convent rich gifts.

Savonarola scorned them and remarkd in a subsequent semon that a faithful dog does not leave off barking in his master's defense because a bone is thrown to him. When he found an unusually large sum, in gold, in the alms box, he suspected that it came f rom Lorenzo, and gave it to another monastery, saying that silver sufficed the needs of his brethren.

Lorenzo sent five leading citizens in to argue with him that his inflammatory sermons would lead to useless violence, and were unsettling the order and peace of Florence. Savonarola answered by telling them to bid Lorenzo to do penance for his sins.

A Franciscan friar famous for eloquence was encouraged to preach popular sermons wiht a view to drawing the Dominican's audience away. The Franciscans failed. Greater throngs than ever before came to San Marco, until its church could no longer hold them.

For his Lenten sermon of 1491 Savonarola moved his pulpit into the cathedral; and though that edifice had been designed to contain a city, it was crowded whenever the friar was scheduled to speak. The ailiing Lorenzo made no further effort to interfere with his preaching.


Can you imagine a friar, in that day and age in a progressive, economically strong, vital, intelligent area, disrupting an entire city that contained wealthy, influential, powerful men, just by preaching sermons? There's a lot to talk about here.

Malryn
March 18, 2007 - 07:13 pm

Page 147-148

After Lorenzo's death the weakness of his son Piero made Savonarola the greatest power in Florence

With the reluctant consent of the new pope, Alexander VI, he separated his convent from the Lombard Congregation ( of Dominican monasteries ) of which it had been a part, and made h imself in practice the independent head of his monastic community.

He reformed its regulations, and raised and morel and intellectual level of the friars under his rule. New recruits ointed his flock, and most of its 250 members developed for him a love and fidelity that upheld him in all but his final ordeal.

He became bolder in his criticism of the laic and clerical immorality of the time. Inheriting, however unwittingly, the anticlerical views of the Waldensian and Patarine heretics who still lurked her and there in northern Italy and central Europe, he condemned the worldly wealth of the clergy, the pomp of ecclesiastical ceremony, "the great prelates with splendid miters of gold and precious stones on their head . . . with fine copes and sotles of brocade."

He contrasted the affluence with the simplicity of the priests in the early Church; these "had fewer gold miters and fewer chalices, for what they possessed were broken up to relieve the needs of the poor,, whereas our prelates, for the sake of obtaining chalices, will rob the poor of their sole means of support.

He had predicted that Lorenzo and Innocent VIII wo;uld die in 1492, They did.

Now he predicted that presently the sins of Italy, of her despots and her clergy, would be avenged by a dire disaster, and that there after Christ would lead the nations in a glorious reform; and that he himself, Savonarola, would die a violent death.

Early in 1492 he foretold that Charles VIII would invade Italy, and he welcomed the invasion as the chastening hand of God.

His sermons at this time, says a contemporary, were "so full of terrors and alarms, cries and lamentations, that everyone went about the city bewildered, speechless, and, as it were, half-dead."


And, just think! They didn't even have radio or television! Thanks, folks, for letting me help out while ROBBY was away.

Fifi le Beau
March 18, 2007 - 08:34 pm
Thanks Mal for helping Robby. They didn't have radio or television but they did have the printing press. Savonarola's sermons were distributed to the masses, but also the Pope which may have hastened his end.

What is there about the turn of the century that brings out the 'end of the world' crowd? Every millinium since we've kept records, they show up with amazing regularity. It seems Florence was no different as the year 1500 approached, Savonarola preached prophecies of doom to Italy.

At the turn of the year 1900, a preacher had told of the coming rapture, and he enticed a rather large group to follow him up into the mountains to wait for the end. When the world didn't end and the people weren't raptured, but cold and hungry, it ended with a wimper as people went back home, and the pastor lost his flock.

Savonarola will suffer a similar fate when he doesn't deliver on promises. He not only lost his flock, but his life. The people of Florence weren't quite as forgiving as the 'end of world' crowd in 1900.

The year 2000 also brought out the doom and gloomers. It is a world wide phenomenon that comes around every hundred or so years.

Fifi

BaBi
March 19, 2007 - 05:14 am
One last time.. I do like Durant. I'm not on any 'negative bandwagon'. The fact remains that every historian inevitably brings his own views to his subject. Look at Josephus. Look at Churchill. Look at any historian before, after or in between. Those viewpoints need to be recognized in assessing a history. That's all I have to say.

Babi

Malryn
March 19, 2007 - 08:11 am

How do we know which views are the Durants' and which are taken from the resources these historians used as references? Take a look at the notes I typed out in what I copied from The Renaissance.

This reminds me of the fact that every time I have published a novel, some people who read it have let me know that they have figured out which character is me. ( I ). The truth is that none of the characters has ever been based on me or my life.

Now, if someone could please tell me what this assessing of viewpoints has to do with Savonarola, as demonstrated in the quotes I posted yesterday, which have been copied, word for word, from what is written in The Renaissance book?

Mal

JoanK
March 19, 2007 - 04:28 pm
"The year 2000 also brought out the doom and gloomers".

They haven't gone away! I just got cable, and tuned in the History Channel for the first time. I struck a program where evidently they had surveyed scientists to find out which natural catastrophe they thought would wipe out the human race. The respondents all had different answers, but all thought it would happen.

I think I'll go back to getting my history here!!

robert b. iadeluca
March 19, 2007 - 05:08 pm
My arm is feeling better but it is still a bit difficult to type. I'll be here in the morning to present some Durant material.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 20, 2007 - 04:16 am
The Statesman

robert b. iadeluca
March 20, 2007 - 04:26 am
"On December 2, 1494 the citizens were summoned to a parlamento by the great bell in the Palazzo Vecchio tower.

"The Signory asked and received the power to name twenty men who would appoint a new Signory and new magistrates for a year, after which all offices were to be filled by lot from a register of the approximately three thousand enfranchised males.

"The Twenty dismissed the councils and agencies which under the Medici had considered and administered public affairs and divided the diverse functions among themselves. They were inadequately experienced for these tasks anbd were torn by family factions. The new governmental machinery broke down and chaos was imminent. Commerce and industry hesitated, men were thrown out of work, and angry crowds gathered in the streets.

"Piero Capponi persuaded the Twenty that order could be saved only by inviting Saronarla into their councils."

I am wondering. When chaos is imminent, is there always a great man somewhere who rises to the occasion?

Robby

Fifi le Beau
March 20, 2007 - 10:27 am
Robby your statement....

I am wondering. When chaos is imminent, is there always a great man somewhere who rises to the occasion?

The short answer is no. The long answer is sometimes.

Fifi

Bubble
March 20, 2007 - 10:43 am
Then we need a great man here too. I wish he would show himself soon... Bubble

Justin
March 20, 2007 - 01:06 pm
No dearth of chaos in the world. Perhaps, we should look for a great woman to lead us.

robert b. iadeluca
March 20, 2007 - 05:35 pm
"The friar summoned them to his monastery and expounded to them an ambitious program of political, economic, and moral legislation.

"Under his leadership and that of Pietro Soderini, the Twenty devised a new constitution, partly modeled on that which was so successfully maintaining stability in Venice. A Maggior Consiglio or Great Council was to be formed of men who -- or their ancestors in the preceding three generatons -- had held a major office ij the state. And these initial members were to choose twenty eight additional counselors in each year.

"The executive organs of the government were to remain essentially as under the Medici. A Signory of eight priors and a gonfalonier, chosen by the Council for a term of two months, and various committees -- The Twelve, The Sixteen, The Ten, The Eight -- to carry on administration, taxation, and war.

"Complete democracy was postoned as impractical in a society still largely illiterate and subject to waves of passion. But the Great Council, numbering almost three thousand members, was considered to be a representative body.

"Since no room in the Palazzo Vecchio could house so large an assemblage, Simone Pollaiuolo -- Il Cronaca -- was engaged to redesign part of the interior into a Sala Dei Cinquecento or Hall of the Five Hundr3ed, where the Council could meet in sections. Here, eight years later, Leonardo da Vinci and Michelangelo would be commissioned to paint opposed walls in a famous rivalry.

"Through Savonarola's influence and eloquence the proposed constitution received public acclaim and the new Republic came into operation on June 10, 1495."

Democracy in the making?

Robby

Justin
March 20, 2007 - 06:46 pm
What is that chaos that has befallen Florence? What has happened to bring about the fall of the Medici?

Charles V111 of France has come to call. He is, with a substantial army, on his way south to take Naples. Florence feels threatened, as well it should. Piero de Medici is in control, (Lorenzo is dead), and without consulting the Signory he approaches Charles, who is at the border and surrenders the city to the French. Charles asks for the equivalent of 5 million dollars to finance his campaign. Piero agrees and goes home where he finds the gates closed to him.

He escapes with his life and his family but the Signory meets and puts a price on his head, dead or alive.

The Signory meanwhile appoints a delegation of five including Savonarola to visit Charles to ask for some mitigation of the terms. They get smiles in return for their troubles.

Pisa declares its independence from Florence and the Medici reign is at an end for a time. Charles enters Florence and then moves on south toward his real objective while placing the city under the French fleur de lis.

Now the Signory asks the citizens of Florence to attend a meeting at which it asks for the power to name 20 who will appoint a new Signory. All other offices to be filled by lot among the 3000 odd citizens. The power is granted.

robert b. iadeluca
March 21, 2007 - 03:47 am
Thanks for the important background, Justin.

Any further reactions here to Post 512?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 22, 2007 - 02:35 am
The Martyr

robert b. iadeluca
March 22, 2007 - 02:52 am
"Pope Alexander VI was not deeply disturbed by Savonarola's criticism of the clergy or of the morals of Rome.

"He had heard the like before. Hundreds of ecclesiastics, for centuries past, had complained that many priests lived immoral lives and that the popes loved wealth and power more than became the vicars of Christ.

"Alexander was of a genial temperament. He did not mind a little criticism so long as he felt secure in the Apostolic chair. What disturbed him in Savonarola was the friar's politics. Not the semidemocratic nature of the constitution. Alexander had no special interest in the Medici and perbaps preferred in Florence a weak republic to a strong dictatorship.

"Alexander feared another French invasion. He had joined in forming a league of Italian states to expel Charles VIII and to discourage a second French attack. He resented the adherence of Florence to its alliance with ?France, considered Savorarola the power behind this policy and suspected him of secret correspondence with the French government.

"Savonarola wrote to Charles VIII about this time three letters seconding the proposal of Cardinal Gioliano della Rovere that the King shold call a general council of ecclesiastics and statesmen to reform the Church and depose Alexander as 'an infidel and a heretic.'

"Cardinal Ascanio Sforza, representing Milan at the papal court, urged the Pope to end the friar's poreaching and influence."

Uneasy lies the head that wears the miter.

Robby

EllieC1113
March 22, 2007 - 09:51 am
Hello. I can read the posts only every few days right now. When I read anything, including Durant, I reserve the right to read it skeptically. I have the book and am reading it on the PATH train from NY to NJ, plus at night after work. I like Savonarola. I love the fact that he has the courage to point out what is wrong with both the clergy/religious orders and the government. I guess, in every time period, people think about ethics, gross unfairness, virtues, and unacceptable behavior. I believe that, given the new technological developments/information distribution networks of the time, more and more people were "playing around with" important ideas about how to live well. I guess both the "spiritual guides" and the secular intellectuals who come to the forefront in a culture will struggle to make things better. I enjoy the "great person" way of looking at history.

robert b. iadeluca
March 23, 2007 - 04:00 am
Either you folks are not interested in recent postings or else I am not receiving them.

Robby

Bubble
March 23, 2007 - 09:25 am
Busy time of the year for me and this requires much thinking apart of the reading. Another week or so...

EllieC1113
March 23, 2007 - 11:09 am
It was an extreme and very provoking comment to characterize the Pope openly as an "infidel and a heretic." It was also very grandiose and self-defeating on the part of Savonarola to do so. Who did he think he was? The seat of all knowledge of good and evil? And then he conspired to depose the Pope. Sounds like there might be a strong reaction to his assertions and plots.

Justin
March 23, 2007 - 02:49 pm
You are so right, Ellie. Even though he was talking to the Borgia Pope who was all the monk said he was and more, one does not attack a Pope that way without expecting serious retribution. Savonarola, predicted his own end in a violent manner. There is an image of his execution somewhere. I wish I could recall where it is hung.

Malryn
March 23, 2007 - 04:27 pm

EXECUTION OF SAVONAROLA by unknown. (Museo di San Marco)
Click image to enlarge

Justin
March 23, 2007 - 05:12 pm
That's it, Mal. Isn't it dramatic? I don't know why Savonarola and his buddy is secured so high. Perhaps the heat and the smoke killed them.

Notice the observers. Only one person- a cavalier, is watching the action at the stake. Everyone else is studiously avoiding the scene. They are all engaged in private conversation. Early existential.

The large building on the right with three arcades is the Logia dei Lanzi and the fortress looking building dep on the right is the Bargello. The Bargello today is a sculpture gallery. During the time of the Medici it housed the police chief. The Duomo can be seen on the left.

EllieC1113
March 23, 2007 - 07:08 pm
Thanks Mal. I hunted on the Internet and couldn't find it. I was also thinking about the fact that we keep reading about all these Italian cities, and even though they sound so wonderful as places to visit, I will probably avoid going there. I went to Rome for the first time a few years ago, and it was an awesome city to visit. I was, however, so intimidated by all the Vespas and so irritated by their noise and the danger of the way they drive, that I really don't want to go back and see the other cities. I hear that the "plague of mopeds" exists all over Italy. I don't mind running on the city streets in NYC, but the thought of having to dodge Italian traffic turns me off. I remember trailing along with some "sophisticated street-crossers" as the only way to survive the insane traffic flow in Rome. And also to run like hell to get across the street. Not exactly a relaxing vacation.

Justin
March 23, 2007 - 10:22 pm
Ellie: I am surprised the Vespa traffic keeps you away from Italian cities. You live in Manhattan. You fight the cross town double parking jams and the high-speed-short-run-bursts of cabs on the avenues every day and think nothing of it. The Vespas aren't as big as taxis but they are more flexible. Take courage and enjoy life and its treasures.

cranel
March 24, 2007 - 07:40 am
Are we getting more civilized. No. Evidence 1, Rap Music 2, Modern architecture. 3, The Da vinci code.

robert b. iadeluca
March 24, 2007 - 12:51 pm
My email is not operating properly so forgive me for using this posting to bring you up to date about myself. This morning, in addition to my arm and hand problem, I woke up with back spasms so I went to the hospital E.R. and just came home.

I have shoulder tendonitis and will be taking prednisone to reduce inflammation and swelling. I am also to do gentle arm exercises. For the back spasms I will take Robaxin, a muscle relaxant.

I will try my best to type occasionally.

Robby

Bubble
March 24, 2007 - 01:10 pm
Since your mail is not working properly, I will post here my best wishes for fast cure of that shoulder inflammation. Don't push to type, etc. Robby or it will take longer. Arm exercises in a warm pool help a lot if you have that facility.
Take care! Bubble

Malryn
March 24, 2007 - 03:37 pm
TO CONTINUE WITH DURANT:

On July 21, 1495 Alexander wrote a brief note to Savonarola:


To our well-beloved son, greeting and the apostolic benediction.
We have heard that of all the workers in the Lord's vineyard thou art the most zealous,
at which we deeply rejoice, and give thanks to Almighty God. We have likewise heard that
thou dost assert thy preditions proceed not from yu but from God. * Therefore we desire, as
behooves our pastoral office, to have speech with thee consideirng these things, so that,
being by these means better informed of God's will, we may be better able to fulfil it. Wheretofore
by thy vow of holy obedience, we enjoin thee to wait on us without delay, and shall welcome theee
with loving kindness.

  • The Church, to check false prophets, had pronounced such claims to be heretical.
  • Justin
    March 24, 2007 - 04:15 pm
    Isn't that a delightful invitation to torture by the Holy Office. The Pope seems to apeak in the first person plural. Does anyone know the reason for practice?

    GingerWright
    March 24, 2007 - 04:59 pm
    Welcome cranel, good to have you here.

    Ginger

    Malryn
    March 24, 2007 - 05:08 pm

    The letter was a triumph for Savonarola's enemies, for it placed him in a situation where he must either end his career as a refirnerm ir fkagrabtkt disobey the Pope. He feared that once in the papal power he would never be allowed to return to Florence. He might end his days in a Sant' Angelo dungeon. If he did not come back his supp0rters would be ruined.

    On their advice he replied to Alexander that he was too ill to travel to Rome.

    That the Pope's motives were political appeared when he wrote to the Signory on September 8 protesting against the continued alliance of Florence with France, and exhorting the Florentines not to endure the reproach of being the only Italians allied with the enemies of Italy.

    At the same time he ordered Savonarola to desist from preaching, to submit to the authority of the Dominican vicar-geberal in Lombardy, and to go wherever the vicar-general bid him.

    Savonarola replied (September 10) that his congregation was unwilling to subordinate itself to the vicar-general , but thqt meanwhile he would refrain from preaching.

    Alexander, in a conciliatory respnse (October 16) repeated his prohibition of preaching, and expressed the hope that when Savonarola's health should permit, he would come to Rome, to be received in "a joyful and fatherly spirit."

    There, for a year, Alexander let the problem rest.

    Justin
    March 24, 2007 - 09:25 pm
    It is a game of cat and mouse. Is it not?

    3kings
    March 25, 2007 - 12:47 am
    Justin First person plural ? I'm fairly sure we have come across the practice in translations when reading earlier volumes of SoC.

    It was common practice even as late as 1900, with Queen Victoria's "We are not amused !"

    That was immediately dubbed "The Imperial We." whence it became the butt of jokes about the "Imperial wee."

    Today, perhaps to avoid the offending phrase, Queen Elizabeth always speaks about "My husband and I'++ Trevor

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 25, 2007 - 06:44 am
    Thank you very much, Mal. Between the two of us we continue to get Durant to you.

    "Meanwhile the prior's party had recaptured control of the Council and the Signory.

    "The emissaries of the Florentine government in Rome besought the Pope to withdraw his interdict on that friar's preaching, urging that Florence needed his moral stimulus in Lent. Alexand3er seems to have given a verbal consent and on Frebruary 17, 1496, Savonarola resumed his preaching in the cathedral.

    "About this time Alexander commissioned a learned Dominican bishop to examine Savonarola's published sermons for heresey. The bishop reported:-'Most Holy Father, this friar says nothing that is not wise and honest. He speaks against simony and the corruption of the priesthood which in truth is very great. He respects the dogmas and authority of the Church. Whereas I would rather seek to make him my friend -- if need be by offering him the cardinal's purple.'

    "Alexander complaisantly sent a Dominican to Florence to offer Savonarola the red hat. The friar felt not complimented but shocked. This, to him, was but another instance of simony.

    "His answer to Alexander's emissary was 'Come to my next sermon and you will have my reply to Rome.'"

    If you can't fight them, join them.

    Robby

    Malryn
    March 26, 2007 - 03:33 pm

    His first sermon of the year reopened the conflict with the Pope. It was an event in the history of Florence. Half the excited city wished to hear him, and even the vast duomo could not contain all who sought entry. Within they were packed so tightly that no one could move. A group of armed friends escorted the prior to the cathedral. He began by explaining his long absence from the pulpit and affirmed his full loyalty in the teachings of the Church.

    But then he issued an audacious challenge to the Pope:-
    The superior may not give me any command contrary to the rules of my order. The pope may not give an coommend opposed to charity or the Gospel.

    I do not believe the pope would ever seek to do so, but were he so to do, I would say to him, "Now thou aart not pastor. Thou art not the Church of Rome. Thou art in error."

    Whenever it be clearly seen that the commands of superiors are contrary to God's commandments, and especially when contrary to the precepts of charity, no one is in such case bound to obedience..

    Were I to clearly see that my departure from a city would be the spiritual and temporal ruin of the people, I would obey no living man that commanded me to depart. . . . forasmuch as in obeying him I should disobey thhe commands of the Lord.

    I think this is one of the most exciting, stimulating parts of history I've ever read. How anyone could sit on his or her hands and not comment on this period and this stubbornly courageous man, I really don't know.

    Let's hear what you think.

    Justin
    March 26, 2007 - 06:27 pm
    The practice of disagreeing with Kings and Popes is a very dangerous practice indeed. Later we will see Sir Thomas More in conflict with Henry V111 over a religious issue.He too will lose his head. Now, it is Savonarolla's turn. Just think, he could have accepted the "red hat" and a long life of luxury.

    Dishonor in one's own eyes is painful to bear but being cooked in a fire at the stake is more so. Consider the Friar's complaint. He opposed simony and sex among the clergy and particularly in the Papacy. The Borgia Pope was very openly guilty of both. Several Popes preceding him had done the same so this guy was not alone nor would he be the last.

    The Clergy today, is rife with that nasty sin called fornication. So I tend to see the Friar as a pitiful figure- a little like the "man of la Mancha" but with much more at risk. The Pope will step on him like a bug if he makes too big a nuisance of himself. We can't call that heroic.

    Neither the people of Florence to whom he appeals nor the King of France with his Army can kick the Pope's mistress out of bed, nor would he choose to do that. Florence was excommunicated for it's pains and Siena cheered.

    .

    JoanK
    March 26, 2007 - 07:38 pm
    JUSTIN: "We can't call that heroic".

    Why not?

    EllieC1113
    March 26, 2007 - 09:10 pm
    I agree with you, Justin, about the self-destructive nature of Savonarola's remarks. I think the people who met (later) at the Council of Trent did a far more effective job in cleaning up some of the mess in the Church.

    I do beg to differ with you, however, about the comment regarding the current clergy being "rife" with the sin of fornication. I personally think the idea of a celibate clergy is a gigantic burden for any individual as part of a life choice. But, I would wager that the vast majority of clergy adhere to their vows, and I think they should be given credit for "superhuman self control."

    You know, it's a great privilege to be outspoken in such a democratic group as this list. Too bad Savonarola didn't live during our times. He could have said all kinds of controversial stuff without getting killed for it.

    Justin
    March 26, 2007 - 11:41 pm
    Ellie:I think we are both on the extreme ends of the celibacy question. The "vast majority" is celibate may well be as far from the truth in one direction as "rife" is in the other. Certainly "some" clergy have successfully led celibate lives. I'm not sure that's commendable but it is the truth of the matter. I have never quite been able to figure out why Paul, and subsequently, Augustine and others who may have loved sex but thought it sinful. Have you honestly ever figured that out. Without it civilization would perish and it is a very beatiful expression of tender feelings between people. I must admit, I truly do not understand the reason for this posture.

    Justin
    March 26, 2007 - 11:53 pm
    JoanK. Because it is self-destructive and foolish. He knew he was going to lose. He predicted a violent death for himself and pushed on suicidally. There is something of the martyr in this man. The hero does not throw his life away.David is a hero not because he won but because he had a chance to win when faced with great odds and he was courageous enough to try his skill. .

    Bubble
    March 27, 2007 - 12:04 am
    Justin, it is hard to understand the self mortification.

    Rabbis rejoice in matrimony and thank God for receiving that pleasurable gift of carnal love. Grow and multiply is a sacred commandment.

    Mallylee
    March 27, 2007 - 02:26 am
    The self mortification is mortification of the mortal body, for the benefit of the eternal soul. The body/soul dualism is integral to Church doctrine.

    Souls can be controlled by the well-known psychological manipulations of guilt and salvation. Bodies, especially young male bodies, are not so subject to psychological manipulations, but tend to go directly for sexual satisfaction. Therefore, bodies have to be controlled by physical punishments. This does not work too well, as the physical punishments can themselves become sexual activities, therefore the Church authorities are driven to perform punishments themslves to keep the flock in order.

    I like Quixotic heroes! Jesus was one of those!They may have been ineffective against temporal powers, but their spirits of defiance and courage live on.

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 27, 2007 - 03:38 am
    Definition of "simony" from On Line Dictionary:

    The buying or selling of ecclesiastical pardons, offices, or emoluments.

    Robby

    Bubble
    March 27, 2007 - 12:49 pm
    Here is the origin of the word

    Simony (from Webster's)
    1. the making of profit out of sacred things.
    2. the sin of buying or selling ecclesiastical preferments, benefices, etc.


    [1175–1225; ME simonie < LL simonia; so called from Simon Magus, who tried to purchase apostolic powers; see SIMON (def. 5), -Y3]

    5. (“Simon Magus”) the Samaritan sorcerer who was converted by the apostle Philip. Acts 8:9–24.

    Justin
    March 27, 2007 - 01:44 pm
    That explains it Mallylee. Yes, it does. The duality of the body/soul concept is the explanation. One punishes the body for the eternal benefit of the soul. I suppose that is what is behind Jesus' donkey-back ride into Jerusalem to ostensibly celebrate Passover but in actuality to punish the body and give the soul eternal life. The Spanish Penitents are doing no less when they whip themselves bloody and Savonarola no less when he taunts the Borgia Pope.

    We are not talking, here, about heroism in the least sense. We are talking about devotion to a concept that on the face of it is inconsistent with reality. These figures are Cervantian.

    3kings
    March 27, 2007 - 07:39 pm
    Justin :- "Because it is self-destructive and foolish. He knew he was going to lose."

    Now, just how do you know that ? You maybe right, but on the other hand....

    I could be wrong too, in believing that there is more greatness in the human spirit that leads to self sacrifice, than, as you expressed, it mere Cervantism. (sp ?)

    I can not be certain, but I do fervently trust that when a parent sacrifices their lives for their children, or as in the case of Savonarola and Jesus, sacrifices for an ideal, that there is more involved here than mere "Tilting at Windmills". +++ Trevor

    Justin
    March 27, 2007 - 09:21 pm
    Well, Trevor, in the case of Savonarola, he said, several times, that he expected to die a violent death.

    Both Jesus and Savonarola sacrificed themselves for an idea, for a concept. You judge the value of the concept for yourself.

    Parent sacrifice for children is very worthy if you are talking about life for life and not an exchange for an abstract concept.

    Mallylee
    March 28, 2007 - 03:07 am
    We are talking about devotion to a concept that on the face of it is inconsistent with reality. These figures are Cervantian(Justin)

    True.When social reality glorifies concepts that are not fit for purpose, the hero tries to change the malfunctioning social reality.

    The story of Don Q abstracts the colourful absurdity of rebellion: the story of JC (once you ignore later Platonic influences) shows a novel respect for the individual person to be liberated from political exploitation and enslaving dogmas I think.

    I suppose that is what is behind Jesus' donkey-back ride into Jerusalem to ostensibly celebrate Passover but in actuality to punish the body and give the soul eternal life.(Justin) It's my understanding that this is a Platonic, not a Jewish take on the donkey ride story. Were Jews of the time who were educated in Jewish religion, believers in body/soul duality ,with the soul evaluated as better than the body? I don't know. I must try to find out.

    I wrote'concepts not fit for purpose'. I mean, in the case of Savonarola. not RC doctrines, but glorification of art objects and hedonism generally. Should all concepts not be reviewed by all persons, as a matter of human duty?

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 28, 2007 - 03:52 am
    "Alesander sought an indirect escape from open war.

    "In November, 1496, he ordered the union of all Tuscan Dominican monasteries in a new Tuscan-Roman Congregation, to be directly under the authority of Padre Giacomo da Sicilia. Padre Giacomo was farorably disposed toward Savonarola but would presumably accept a papal suggestion to transfer the friar to another environment.

    "Savonarola refused to obey the order of union and took his case over the head of the Pope to the public at large in a pamphlet called 'An Apology of the Brethren of San Marco.' He argued:-'This union is impossible, unreasonable, and hurtful, nor can the brethren of San Marco be bound to agree to it, inasmuch as superiors may not issue commands contrary to the rules of the order, nor contrary to the law of charity or the welfare of our souls.'

    "Technically all monastic congregations were directly subject to the popes. A pope might compel the merger of congregations against their will. Savonarola himself, in 1493, had approved Alexander's order uniting the Dominican Congregation of St. Catherine's at Pisa against its will, with Savonarola's Congegation of St. Mark.

    "Alexander, however, took no immediate action. Savonarola continued to preach and issued to the public a series of letters defending his defiance of the Pope."

    Savonarola considered the public "over the head of the pope." A hint of democracy in action? Of the people, by the people, for the people?

    Robby

    Mallylee
    March 28, 2007 - 04:53 am
    yes Robby, I think this bit is very democratic superiors may not issue commands contrary to the rules of the order, nor contrary to the law of charity or the welfare of our souls.'

    Justin
    March 28, 2007 - 10:59 pm
    "over the head" of the pope is nonsense. The pope owes his allegiance to God not to the people. A vox populi appeal and a token would get him a ride on the subway.Savonarola's best and his only real appeal was to God and since he could get no recognizable response from that quarter his impact upon the Pope was no more than a nasty nuisance. Soon the POpe will tire of this foolish man and have him for supper. The Borgia Pope is having enough trouble keeping his mistress in bed from other sources. There are rumors that don't die about his Sister Lucrezia and the papal bed.

    Justin
    March 28, 2007 - 11:06 pm
    Superiors may issue commands of any kind so long as they have the power. Do you recall Caligula and Nero with Seneca and Mark Antony with Cicero and Ceasar with Vercingetorix. Might is right when one has the power.

    Mallylee
    March 29, 2007 - 01:10 am
    I understood that Savonarola's efforts were aspirational rather than practical, and he was a martyr to the cause of the people's welfare.

    However, since you said, Justin, that both S and the Pope looked to obey God , and not the will of the people, then , having presumably complete faith in God's Providence,then S was not a martyr for democratic reasons at all.The religions that put God at the head of a power hierarchy are deeply undemocratic.

    So we really need to know the mind-set of these early modern Christians to understand Savonarola's motives?Was S more devoted to God than to the public good, but his sin was to go over the head of the Pope and appeal directly to God? A bit like Martin Luther?

    Justin
    March 29, 2007 - 12:41 pm
    There are some similarities in the reactions of S and Luther. They both objected to the profit motive but S had the additional issue of sex to contend with. I think S was more of a fanatic with a revulsion for papal excesses. L's problem was more of a theological problem. Julius 11 and Pope Leo were his contenders. Julius was a Della Roverre and Leo was the Medici Pope. Julius was one of the greats. He was more political than others but he was not a voluptuary esthete. Leo was a gentle soul who dealt lightly with Luther. Luther's protagonist was a Dominican Monk named Tetzel who could outsnook PT Barnum.

    Mallylee
    March 29, 2007 - 02:15 pm
    Justin, you have opened my eyes to the relevance of personalities in the understanding of the human past. I can see now that it's not enough to try to understand ideas, as if they were not altered by individuals' unique personalities, and made to show in an individual light, Thus Savonarola's passion for purity, and popes' different styles of existence as popes.

    Malryn
    March 30, 2007 - 07:16 am
    Quoted from the book

    As the Lenten season of 1497 approached, that Arrabiati prepared to celebrate carnival by such festivities, processions, and songs as he been sanctioned under the Medici. To counter these plans Savonarola's loyal aide, Fra Domenicao, instructed the children of the congregation to organize a quite different celebration. During the week of Carnival -- preceding Lent -- these boys and girls went about the city in bands, knocked at doors, and asked for -- sometimes demanded -- the surrender of what they called "vanities or cursed objects. (anathemase) -- pictures considered immoral, love songs, carnival masks and costumes, false hair, fancy dresses, playing cards, dice, musical instruments, cosmetics, wicked books like the Decameron or the morgante maggiore.

    On the final day of Carnival, February 7, the more ardent supporters of Savonarola, singing hymns, marched in solemn procession, behind a figure of the Infant Jesus carved by Donatello abd borne by four children in the guise of angels, to the Piazza della Signoria. There a great pyramid of combustible material had been raised, 60 feet high and 240 feet in circumference at the base.

    Upon the seven stages of the pyramid the "vanities" collected during the week, or nonw brought to the sacrifice, were arranged or thrown, including precious manuscripts and works of art. Fire was set to the pyre at four points, and the bells of the Palazxo Vecchio were rung to acclaim this first Savonarola "burning of the vanities."

    Justin
    March 30, 2007 - 01:46 pm
    S.has become a member of the book burning fraternity- an illustrious group, who think that knowledge called heresy disappears in bonfires.Good luck.

    Selection for inclusion in anthologies is another device for getting rid of offending ideas. Jerome, the fellow who tossed away the "Dead Sea Scrolls" and the "Nag Hamadi codex" is in a similar fraternity.

    Legal jurists who ban books in response to the wishes of select members of society are also members of the fraternity.

    We have not seen the last of these good fellows. They will continue until and beyond our present age to purge our libraries of undesirable ideas- of our impure Vanities.

    Mallylee
    March 30, 2007 - 02:55 pm
    Perhaps it's not quite the same now that we have had the Enlightenment and the book burners are those who unlike Savonarola, are stuck in the past.

    Malryn
    March 30, 2007 - 03:01 pm

    Remember Tom Wolfe's Bonfire of the Vanities?

    Mal

    Justin
    March 30, 2007 - 05:24 pm
    what they called "vanities or cursed objects. (anathemase) -- pictures considered immoral, love songs, carnival masks and costumes, false hair, fancy dresses, playing cards, dice, musical instruments, cosmetics, wicked books like the Decameron

    We call erotic literature today, pornography and try to make it illegal.Is that because some of us are stuck in the past, motivated by the Puritan ethic? It is interesting, isn't it, how closely the vanities resemble the tools of seduction. Perhaps the Red Hat was not the right inducement.

    EllieC1113
    March 30, 2007 - 06:58 pm
    Hi. I scanned the recent posts and have two comments. Mallylee, I agree with your perception of Jesus as a rebel. And even though, in his lifetime, he was ineffective against the worldly powers, after his death, he was, in my opinion the single most influential thinker in the western world since the beginning of civilization. Along with, from my perspective, St. Paul, St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, Freud, Marx, Newton, and Einstein. Just off the top of my head. Could probably think of 20 more: Keynes, Watson and Krick, Rousseau, other political philosophers.

    Justin, I think most pornography these days is protected by the First Amendment. My random comments.

    Mallylee
    March 31, 2007 - 02:07 am
    Justin#561I was thinking of more serious books such as The Origin of Species, and not only books, but scientific research such as stem cell research, all the sorts of human endeavours that some people who believe in unchanging dogma want to stiffle, and believe to be vain as against the will of God.

    The current Zeitgeist is not RC doctrine about God, but science and technology.

    Savonarola, if he had been alive today, and a citizen of a free country, would someone of that rebellious and educated personality not be likely to support the Zeitgeist and be against those who try to rubbish it with non-science and pseudo science?

    Mallylee
    March 31, 2007 - 02:19 am
    Ellie,I like your selection of great innovators, including placing Jesus at the head. I think that often- heard quibbles about the historicity of Jesus are unnecessary, because even if Jesus was some sort of composite of ideas current among that early Jewish sect as is detectable among later interjections in the Gospels, the influence of that early sect is traceable down the centuries , through he convolutions of Western history.

    I wish I had been following Durant in the earlier histories!

    Justin
    March 31, 2007 - 01:52 pm
    EllieC. I agree with your list of influential thinkers and if Mallylee at some point said Jesus was a rebel, I agree with that too. Clearly his fellow Jews thought so too, as did the Romans and it was most likely for the threat he posed to the Hasmoneans, the Temple power base, and to the Roman peace that he was crucified.

    Quite so, porno is protected by the First Amendment but it is not without challenge.

    Malryn
    March 31, 2007 - 02:48 pm

    More from Durant:

    The Lenten semon of the friar carried the war to Rome. While accepting the principle that the Chrch should have some terra firma of temporal powers, he argued that the wealth of the Church was the source of her deterioration. His invective now knew no bounds.
    The torch teems with bloodshed, yet the priests take no heed;
    rather, by their evil examples, they bring spiritual death upon all.
    They have withdrawn from God, and their piety consists in spending
    their nights with harlots. . . . . They say that God hath no care
    of the world, that all cometh by chance, neither believe they that
    Christ is present in the sacrament . . . . Come hither, thou ribald
    Church. The Lord saith: I give thee beautiful vestments, but thou
    have made idols of them. Thou hast dedicated the sacred vessels to
    vainglory, the sacraments to simony. Thoue has become a shameless
    harlot in thy lusts; thou art lower than a beast; thou art a monster of
    abomination. Once thou felt shame for thy sins, but now thou art
    shameless. Once anonointed priests called their sons nephews, but now
    they speak of sons . . . . And thus, O prostitute Church, thou hast displayed
    thy foulness to the hwole world and stinkest unto heaven.

    Savonarola suspected that such tirades would earn him excommunication. He welcomed it.
    Many of ye say that excommunication will be decreed . . . . For my
    part I beseech Thee, O Lord, that it may come quickly . . . .Bear this
    excommunication aloft on a lance, open the gates to it! I will reply
    to it, and if I do not amaze thee, then thou; mayest say what thou
    wilt. . . O Lord, I seek only Thy cross! Let me be persecuted, I
    ask this grace of Thee. Let me not died in my bed, but let me give my
    blood for Thee, even as Thou gavest thine for me.


    Whew! And what do you say about that?

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 31, 2007 - 03:15 pm
    How does one discern the difference between courage and foolhardiness?

    Robby

    3kings
    March 31, 2007 - 08:15 pm
    How does one discern the difference between courage and foolhardiness? Robby

    I guess you could say "By the worthiness credited to the outcome." Savonarola challenged the Church. Because his challenge ended in failure, and resulted ultimately in his death, many accuse him of foolhardiness.

    Had he succeeded in his endeavour to cleanse the Church, his many detractors would probably now honour his bravery, even if he still fell a martyr to his ideals. " Many love a winner, and disparage a looser " ++ Trevor

    Fifi le Beau
    March 31, 2007 - 10:29 pm
    As they say talk is cheap. It is easy to get carried away and say things you will soon regret. His rhetoric was to rouse his audience and it gave him a false sense of courage. Savonarola did not really want to be persecuted and put to death, as his behavior will soon attest.

    A quick sure death is never guaranteed to the martyr, and even the Samari has a second standing by with a sword to behead him and put him out of his misery quickly after he plunges the knife into his belly.

    No human wants to be tortured to death, even Jesus is supposed to have cried out on the cross, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me."

    Why indeed?

    Fifi

    Justin
    March 31, 2007 - 11:01 pm
    Let us examine this question of foolhardiness. Did S have any chance of success? If the answer is no or miniscule then I think we must call his words and actions foolhardy. Compare his role with the role of David against Goliath.Did David stand a chance with the giant and know at the time that he could win. Of course he knew he had a good chance. He had been using that sling to protect his flock with great effectiveness for some time. Was David foolhardy? I don't think so. If his stone missed the giant's forehead would we have said he was foolhardy? I don't think so.

    Mallylee
    April 1, 2007 - 01:21 am
    I partly agree with 3Kings that it's the outcome that determines whether or not people say 'courage' or 'foolhardiness'.Although when they say behaviour was foolhardy, their evaluation depends on how much they value prudence over principles.

    I agree with Justin. However , Don Quixote was foolhardy, and we all love him for his simplicity and courage, don't we? 'Foolhardy' is not such a terrible condemnation when the action damages only the subject.

    At the time and place of Savonarola, RC was important as an interpretation of the prevailing world view that there was an over-arching and beneficent purpose to life . In my view, S was all in the right, and his self sacrifice for the sake of Roman Catholicism was morally justifiable.

    Not many rebels against overbearing and self seeking Authorities are rewarded. Mandela was one who was rewarded at last: Jesus was never rewarded,although, arguably he was a willing martyr.

    As for David.I agree with Justin I think the story of the killing of Goliath was the result of political spin.Also, giantism is inherited? Perhaps along with the big stature goes a lack of aggressiveness?

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 1, 2007 - 03:28 pm
    "On March 25, 1498 a Franciscan friar, preaching in the church of Santa Croce, turned the drama of the case upon himself by challenging Savonarola to an ordeal of fire.

    "He stigmatized the Dominican as a heretic and false prophet and offered to walk through fire if Savonarola would do the same. He expected, he said, that both of them wold be burned but hoped by his sacrifice to free Florence from the disorders that had been caused by a proud Dominicans disobedience of the Pope.

    "Savonarola rejected the challenge. Domenico accepted it. The hostile Signory seized the chance to discredit a prior who in its view had become a troublesome demagoge.

    "It approved of the resort to medieval methods and arranged that on Apri 7 Fra Gioliano Rondinelli of the Franciscans and Fra Domenico da Pescia should enter a fire in the Piazza della Signoria.

    "On the appointed day the great square was filled with a crowd eager to enjoy a miracle or the sight of human suffering.

    <"Every window and roof overlooking the scene was occupied with spectators. In the center of the square, athwart a passage two feet wide, twin pyres had been erected of wood mixed with pitch, oil, resin, and gunpowder, guranteeing to make a searing flame."

    Robby

    Justin
    April 1, 2007 - 04:12 pm
    The same crowd came to the coloseum in Rome a millennium and a quarter earlier to watch hungry lions eat their ancestors. We do love the macabre.

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 3, 2007 - 03:13 am
    The crowd had gathered in the square. And now - - -

    "The Franciscan friars took their stand in the Loggia dei Lanzi. The Dominicans marched in from the opposite direction.

    "Fra Domenico carried a consecrated Host, Savonarola a crucifix. The Franciscans complained that Fra Domenico's red cape might have been charmed into incombustibility by the prior. They insisted on his discarding it. He protested. The crowed urged him to yield. He did. The Franciscans asked him to remove other garments which they thought might have been charmed. Domenico consented, went into the palace of the Signory and changed clothes with another friar.

    "The Franciscans urged that he should be forbidden to approach Savonarola lest he be re-enchanted. Domenico submitted to being surrounded by Franciscans.

    "They objected to his carrying either a crucifix or a consecrated Host into the fire. He surrendered the crucifix but kept the Host. A long theological discussion ensued between Svonarola and the Franciscans as to whether Christ would be burned along with the appearances of bread.

    "Meanwhile the Franciscan champion remained in the palace begging the Signory to save him by any ruse. The priors allowed the discussions to go on till darkness fell and then announced that the ordeal could no longer take place.

    "The crowd, cheated of blood, attacked the palace but was repulsed. Some Arrabiari tried to seize Savonarola but his guard protected him. The Dominicans returned to San Marco, jeered by the populace though apparently the Franciscans had been the chief cause of delay. Many complained that Savonarola, after claiming that he was inspired by God and that God would protect him, had allowed Domenico to represent him in the ordeal, instead of facing it himself.

    "These thoughts spread through the city and almost overnight the prior's following faded away."

    Your thoughts, please?

    Robby

    Mallylee
    April 3, 2007 - 09:03 am
    Was the original Judaic sect as superstitious as this?

    Justin
    April 3, 2007 - 04:17 pm
    Oh! Well. Plenty of sound but no fire. .

    3kings
    April 3, 2007 - 06:02 pm
    It would seem the Savonarola was not as insistent on a martyr's death, as others here claim he was. He must have worked hard on poor Fra Domenico, an underling, to take his place!

    And the populace turned on Savonarola, blaming him for the delay that the Franciscans had engineered, to protect their own champion ! With followers such as these, who needs opponents ? ++ Trevor

    Justin
    April 3, 2007 - 09:56 pm
    Trevor: I didn't say he was insistent upon a martyr's death. I said he predicted it. I don't think he had a death wish. I think he chickened out and what was more reprehensible he leaned on an underling to take his place. It was an "Alphonce and Gaston" act and the people saw through it eventually.

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 4, 2007 - 03:36 am
    Which brings the question to mind -- how does one know when a person truly "believes?" Is the willingness to accept death the only true test?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 4, 2007 - 03:53 am
    "On the morrow, Palm Sunday, a mob of Arrabari and others marched to attack the monastery of San Marco.

    "On the way they killed some Piagnoni including Francesco Valori. His wife, drawn to a window by his cries was shot through with an arrow. His home was pillaged and burned, one of his grandchildren was smothered to death.

    "The bell of San Marco tolled to call the Piagnoni to the rescue but they did not come. The friars prepared to defend themselves with swords and clubs. Savonarola in vain bade them lay down their arms and himself stood unarmed at the alter awaiting death.

    "The friars fought valiantly. Fra Enrico wielded his sword with secular delight, accompanying each blow with a lusty cry, Salvum fac populum tuum, Domine -- 'Save thy people, Lord!' But the hostile crowd was too numerous for the friars.

    "Savonarola finally prevailed upon them to lay down their arms and when an order came from the Signory for his arrest and that of Domenico, the two surrendered and were led through a mob that jeered, struck, kicked, and spat upon them, to cells in the Palazzo Vecchio.

    "On the following day Fra Silvento was added to the prisoners."

    Your comments, please?

    Robby

    Justin
    April 4, 2007 - 06:35 pm
    We are coming to the end of the second act with the mob in control and the pricipals in jail.

    Fifi le Beau
    April 4, 2007 - 08:31 pm
    Durant writes.....

    The Franciscans complained that Fra Domenico's red cape might have been charmed.... The Franciscans asked him to remove other garments which they thought might have been charmed....."The Franciscans urged that he should be forbidden to approach Savonarola lest he be re-enchanted.

    Charms and enchantments......the world of the occult, and coming from the men of the church. The crowd would test the power of charms, enchantments, and miracles. They would probably have welcomed a little sleight of hand for a miracle, but the Franciscan was a realist when he saw the fire that had been set, and he wanted no part of that test.

    Savonarola's preaching was in many ways factual about the church and its shortcomings, but he seemed incapable of compromise. The Pope did give him many chances, and had he approached him in a more diplomatic manner he may have been able to actually get some of his complaints addressed.

    He chose instead a path of confrontation, which lead eventually to a schism in the church and the loss of much of Western Europe to the reformers, led by Martin Luther.

    Savonarola seemed to have no physical courage, which to a crowd wanting miracles or blood would be worse than heresy. They quickly decided he had neither manhood or faith.

    Domenico seemed to have both, but it would not save him because of his defense of Savonarola.

    Their deaths led to the Reformation and a split with the Catholic church. Thousands will die in Europe before the majority of Europeans finally abandon both.

    Fifi

    EllieC1113
    April 5, 2007 - 09:47 am
    I agree with you, Fifi,about the possibility that diplomacy might have worked for Savonarola. That is my usual stance in situations where there are fundamental disagreements. If the situation is safe (which it obviously wasn't for Savonarola), state what you believe clearly, firmly, kindly, and diplomatically. I think people get much more of what thay want if they take that stance.

    Still, there is an idea that keeps playing itself out in the back of my head. My daughter is doing her dissertation on the Civil War, and I heard some scholar/author on National Public Radio say that there is greater stability after numerous civil wars if one side wins decisively. And the other one gives in. I hate that idea when it comes to smaller groups, like a family, in a couple, between friends, etc. I prefer a situation of greater fairness. I think one of the reasons that we have stability in the US is despite gross unfairness in things like income distribution, we have a large middle class which is at least somewhat empowered politically and economically.

    I think Europe became very stable after WWII because, although our side won decisively, we treated the vanquished group with respect, fairness and generosity. And they pulled themselves up economically.

    Justin
    April 5, 2007 - 11:32 am
    Fifi: You and Ellie, I think, have struck on the one element that would have solved the problem for Savonarola and postponed the Reformation. Diplomacy, especially when S's popularity was at its peak, would have brought a reasonable end to the stress. Pope Alexander was ready for compromise. He offered the red hat.

    S could have refused the red hat but asked for specific reforms in the voice of diplomacy..He would have made some gains when Alexander saw how easy it was to mollify the guy. Of course , it's easy to see that now but in the heat of the moment the antagonist thinks he is making headway because he is getting attention so he pushes on into hazzardous territory.

    It's a little like the stock market investor who rides a rising market but cannot bring himself to sell till the upward motion has definitely ended. Then it's too late to save oneself. That happened to S.

    JoanK
    April 5, 2007 - 06:38 pm
    Of course Alexander and the other Popes were also pushing into dangerous territory. They could probably have postponed the Reformation, if they had made some changes.

    Barbara Tuchman wrote a book about instances of extreme folly in Historical figures, and one of her examples was the Popes of this period. I don't remember the name: I've glanced at it, but not read it.

    3kings
    April 5, 2007 - 09:36 pm
    That will be Barbara Tuchman "The March of Folly" ++Trevor

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 8, 2007 - 04:55 am
    As we discuss various papal actions, THIS may be of interest.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 9, 2007 - 02:45 am
    "Savonarola was the Middle Ages surviving into the Renaissance and the Renaissance destroyed him.

    "He saw the moral decay of Italy under the influence of wealth and a declining religious belief and he stood bravely, fanatically, vainly against the sensual and skeptical spirit of the times.

    "He inherited the moral fervor and mental simplicity of medieval saints and seemed out of place and key in a world that was singing the praises of rediscovered pagan Greece. He failed through his intellectual limitations and a forgiveable but irritating egotism.

    "He exaggerated his illumination and his capacity and naively underestimated the risk of opposing at once the power of the papacy and the instincts of men. He was understandably shocked by Alexander's morals but intemperate in hius denunciations and intransigeant in his policy.

    "He was a Protestant before Luther only in the sense of calling for a reform of the Cburch. He shared some of Luther's theological dissents.

    "But his memory became a force in the Protestant mind. Luther called him a saint.

    "His influence on literature was slight for literature was in the hands of skeptics and realists like Machiavelli and Guicciardini but his influence on art was immense. Fra Bartolommeo signed his portrait of the friar: 'Portrait of Girolamo of Ferrara, prophet sent by God.'

    "Botticelli turned from paganism to piety under Savonarola's praching. Michelangelo heard the friar frequently and read his sermons devotedly.

    "It was the spirit of Savonarola that moved the brush over the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel and traced behind the altar the terrible Last Judgment."

    A fresh breeze?

    Robby

    Mallylee
    April 9, 2007 - 05:16 am
    Is it true that saints are mostly Caucasian males?

    Justin
    April 9, 2007 - 02:15 pm
    Mally: Good question. Research is needed. I suspect some blacks have been depicted in art as white. Could Jesus, Paul, Stephen, Augustine, Clement, have been black?

    Bubble
    April 9, 2007 - 10:15 pm
    The greatest tragedy in mankind's entire history may be the hijacking of morality by religion.
    -Arthur C Clarke, science fiction writer (1917- 2006?)

    Mallylee
    April 10, 2007 - 02:10 am
    Justin, perhaps some were honorary Caucasians? The master race!!

    Mallylee
    April 10, 2007 - 02:15 am
    Bubble, yes, if by 'religion' is meant Authority.

    One can understand how today, people who are without hope for humanity,and see no future in moral relativism, turn to the Authority.

    What is a silly tragedy of errors is that in today's material world,some people look to the Authority for an explanation of material events.

    (BTW the idea of calling it 'the Authority' is Phillip Pullman's)

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 10, 2007 - 04:47 pm
    I am leaving early tomorrow morning to attend the conference of the Virginia Psychological Association in Richmond and will not be back until Saturday night.

    Robby

    3kings
    April 10, 2007 - 05:11 pm
    It's good that you are feeling relaxed enough to travel, Robbie. Have a good conference, and we will be glad to see you back come Sunday += Trevor

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 10, 2007 - 05:35 pm
    Thanks, Trevor. I've been going in to work every day. It's just my right arm with arthritis that is bothering me and hindering my proper typing but it is healing each day.

    Robby

    Malryn
    April 11, 2007 - 10:09 am

    Quoting from Durant:

    IV. THE REPUBLIC AND THE MEDICI (1408-1534)

    The chaos that had almost nullified government in the later years of Savonarola's ascendancy was not mitigated by his death.. The brief term of tow momths allowed to each Signory and gonfaloner made for a hectic discontinuuity in the executive branch, and inclined the priors to irresponsibility and corruption.

    In 1502 the Council, dominated by a triumphant oligarchy of rich men, sought to overcome part of this difficulty by electing gonfalonier for life, so that while still subject to the Signory and Council, the he might face the popes and the secular rulers of Italy on terms of equal tenure.

    The first man to receive this honor was Pietro Soderini, a millionaire friendly to the people, an honest patriot whose powers of mind and will were not so eminent as to threaten Florence with dictatorship.

    He enlisted Machiavelli among his advisors, governed prudently and economically, and used his private fortune to resume that patronage of art which had been interrupted under Savonarola. With his support, Machiavelli replaced the mercenary troops of Florence with a citizen militia, which finally (1508) forced Pisa to yield again to a Florentine "protectorate."

    But in 1512 the foreign policy of the Republic brought on the disaster that Alexander VI had fortold. Through all the efforts of the "Holy League" of Venice, Milan, Naples, and Rome to rid Italy of its French invaders Florence had persisted in its alliance with France.

    When victory crowned the League it turned in revenge upon Florence and sent its troops to replace the republican oligarchy with a Medicean dictatorship. Florence resisted and Machiavelli labored strenuously ot organize its defense. Its outpost, Prato, was taken and sacked, and Machiavelli's militia turned and fled from thee trained mercenaries of the League. Soderini resigned to avoid further bloodshed. Guiliano de Medici, son of Lorenzo, having contributed 10,000 ducats ($250,000) to the League treasury, entered Florence under the protection of Spanish, German and Italian arms. His brother, Cardinal Giovanni, soon joined him; the Savonarolan constitution was abolished, and the Medicean ascendancy was restored. (1512)

    Fifi le Beau
    April 14, 2007 - 10:07 pm
    Theocracy under Savonarola versus the rich oligarchs under Soderini versus the Pope who supports the rich Medici and dictatorship.

    Theocracy, oligarchy, and dictatorship will all be tried again and again before Europe finally accepts some form of Democratic rule, and throws off the yoke of religion.

    Fifi

    Mallylee
    April 15, 2007 - 12:52 am
    And yet, getting rid of religion is not enough to stop the looming mass extinction of our species

    Malryn
    April 15, 2007 - 09:54 am

    CONTINUING WITH DURANT:

    Giuliano and Giovanni behaved with moderation, and the public, surfeited with excitement, readily accepted the change. When Giovanni became Leo X (1513) Giuliano, having proved too gentle to be a successful ruler, yielded the government of Florence to his nephew Lorenzo. This ambitious youth died after six years of reckless rule.

    Cardinal Giulio de Medici, son of the Giuliano who had been slain in the Pazzi conspiracy, now gave Florence an excellent administration, a nd after he became Clement VII (1521) he ruled the city from the papal chair. Florence took advantage of his misfortunes to expel his representatives (1527) and for four years it again enjoyed the trials of liberty.

    But Clement tempered defeat with diplomacy, and used the troops of Charles V to avenge his ousted relatives. An army of Spanish and German troops marched upoon Florence (1529) and repeated the story of 1512. Resistance was heroic but vain, and Alessandro de Medici began (1531) a regime of oppression, brutality, and lechery unprecedented in the annal of the family. Three centuries would pass before Florence would know freedom again.


    Thank you, MALLYLEE and FIFI for posting here. Let's try to keep this discussion rolling until ROBBY's return. We're about to start "ART UNDER THE REVOLUTON", which I'm sure will be fascinating to discuss.

    Justin
    April 15, 2007 - 01:05 pm
    Mark Hanna, the fund raiser for William Mc Kinley said, "There are two things that are important in Politics 'First is the money and I can't remember what the second one is.'"

    EllieC1113
    April 15, 2007 - 08:02 pm
    I am listening to a book on tape by Maureen Dowd, "Bushworld." She said something that caught my attention. She was comparing the Bush presidencies with the political power of the Clintons. I believe she described the Bush family power as "aristocracy," and the Clintons' power as more of a meritocracy. But then she noted the sense of entitlement that is communicated by both families. I know that some of my Republican family members are still outraged that Hillary is our senator from New York State--being a New Yorker of very recent vintage. Although I voted for her for senator, I am still feeling irritated about the entitlement that gets communicated. Just my random musings.

    Another musing. I believe that religious philosophers were and are probably the group that spends the most time and energy on helping people to develop a sense of ethics. Obviously, such groups are very fallible. Is there any group that does this task anywhere near as well? I don't see the secular humanists in academia doing such a good job in this area. They do a rather poor job of even promoting academic freedom. According to my family members who are in academia, political correctness reigns supreme. And woe to you if you have an idea that doesn't meet with the approval of the political correctness crowd. (For example, "The police do many good things for society." Apparently a very politically incorrect assertion.)

    Ellie

    Fifi le Beau
    April 15, 2007 - 08:32 pm
    Three hundred more years of oppression for Florence. The Medici are back in control, and though some of the earlier Medici rulers were considered to be good administrators, Alessandro proved himself to be a strike against rule by heredity.

    An argument against Kings and rule by kinship is that sooner or later a despot, fool, mentally unbalanced, genetically challenged offspring will fall out of the cradle into power. Oligarchy is what the Medici practiced with the office of the Pope and ruler of cities, but like Kings they kept it all in the family.

    It is the worst way to select a leader, and society never seems to learn a lesson from it, even today. The way in which the Popes have been selected over the hundreds of years we have read about is as corrupt as any despot killing and buying his office.

    Fifi

    Justin
    April 15, 2007 - 10:13 pm
    Fifi: A genetically challenged offspring fell out of the cradle of one of our aristocratic families and landed in a position of power quite recently. The problem is still with us.

    Ellie can you be a little more specific.Which religious philosophers (theologists) do you believe are or have advanced personal ethics. In my experience as a faculty member in several universities ethics courses were not quite as popular as professional courses but in recent years the B schools have beefed up Ethics and many have now added the course to the list of requirements for graduation. The recent spate of criminal behavior in business is driving the new interest in Ethics.

    Mallylee
    April 16, 2007 - 01:01 am
    Ellie did you mean rather 'philosophers of religion'? If so, I would agree slightly, but only impressionistically, and only regarding contemporary philosophers.

    It seems to me that the philosophers who have the all-time BIGGEST(all-embracing) ethical systems are Plato and Spinoza, neither of whom is simply a ' philosopher of religion'.

    Fifi le Beau
    April 16, 2007 - 09:33 am
    Justin, those words 'genetically challenged offspring' were meant for you know who. I don't want to cross Robby and go too far afield so its all generic.

    I hope Robby is okay. He said he had been having some health problems, and I wish him recovery and good health. What would we do without Robby and Mal, who have kept this discussion ongoing through their own trials and tribulation?

    I salute them both.

    Though I am sometimes gone for weeks or months at a time, when I return home the story of this discussion has continued on its march through history. Our words weave a story of how we look at history through Twenty First century eyes, and that is a tale in itself.

    Fifi

    Justin
    April 16, 2007 - 01:24 pm
    Yes, and what can one say about Neitzche and Kirkegard. Both of whom fall close to the religious line but are not much on Ethics. Fellows like Augustine who threw over a lifetime mistress for a political marriage don't help very much with Ethics either. The recent Trappist monk who pulled out of society for an isolated life can't help much either. I am at a loss. There must be some contemporary who is working in the field who is contributing new insights.

    Justin
    April 16, 2007 - 01:32 pm
    Art may be the only glorious thing to come out of the Renaissance. Florence came to a bad end, Savonarola came to a bad end, the Papacy came to a bad end, and the nations of Europe alligned against France to kill thousands of people. Let us launch into the new topic.

    Malryn
    April 16, 2007 - 04:56 pm

    Okay, JUSTIN. Give me time to type it out on Word Pad and copy and paste it here.

    **********

    I'll remind all of us that it is a policy of this discussion not to mention contemporary politicians by name on this board. We also try to stay away from current politics in order to avoid arguments such as the ones found in other discussions.

    The place for discussing political issues and the politicians concerned worldwide is the Politics Discussions, and that's a whole 'nother thing in a whole other place.

    **********

    I'll be back.

    (Thanks, FIFI. Both ROBBY and I are grateful for your appreciation. His contribution is far greater than mine, but I believe in the importance of this discussion so am happy to help out.)

    Mal

    Justin
    April 16, 2007 - 05:06 pm
    Mal: I second Fifi's comments.

    Malryn
    April 16, 2007 - 05:10 pm

    V. ART UNDER THE REVOLUTION

    Malryn
    April 16, 2007 - 05:22 pm

    An age of political excitement is usually a stimulant to literature, and we shall study later two writers of the first rank -- Machiavelli and Giucciardini -- who belonged to this period, But a state always verging on bankruptcy, and engaged in almost permanent revolution, does not favor art -- and least of all architecture.

    Some rich men, skilled in floating on a flood, still gave hostages to fortune by building palaces. Giovanni Francesco and Artistotele da Sangallo, working on plans by Raphael, raised a palatial mansion for the Pandolfini family.

    In 1520-4 Michalangelo designed for Cardinal Giulio de Medici a Nuovo Sagrestia, or New Sacristy, for the church of San Lorenzo -- a simple quadrangle and modest dome, known to all the world as the home of Michelangelo's finest sculptures, the tombs of the Medici.


    I'll continue this tomorrow morning when the light is better, folks. I'll be 79 July 2nd, and these old eyes just ain't what they used to be.

    Malryn
    April 16, 2007 - 05:33 pm

    New Sacristy, Church of San Lorenzo

    New Sacristy

    Tomb of Giuliano de Medici

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 16, 2007 - 06:01 pm
    I'm trying to get back into it, Mal. Thank you so much. I still make a lot of mistakes when I type because my shoulder is so stiff.

    Robby

    Fifi le Beau
    April 16, 2007 - 07:38 pm
    Having seen the tombs of the Medici before, and not knowing what the two reclining figures represented, I looked it up. It seems that Giuliano's means 'night' and 'day'. And here all this time I had called them the devil and his handmaiden, my own interpetation of course. Here is the explanation from the Medici tomb website.

    The two monumental groups (for the tombs of Lorenzo, duke di Urbino, and Giuliano, duke de Nemours) are each composed of a seated armed figure in a niche, with an allegorical figure reclining on either side of the sarcophagus below. The seated figures, representing the two dukes, are not treated as portraits but as types. Lorenzo, whose face is shaded by a helmet, personifies the reflective man; Giuliano, who is holding the baton of an army commander, portrays the active man. At his feet recline the figures of "Night" and "Day." "Night," a giantess, is twisting in uneasy slumber; "Day," a herculean figure, looks wrathfully over his shoulder. Just as imposing, but far less violent, are the two companion figures reclining between sleep and waking on the sarcophagus of Lorenzo. The male figure is known as "Dusk," the female figure as "Dawn."

    Fifi

    EllieC1113
    April 16, 2007 - 07:58 pm
    There are several writers who come to mind who deal with the ethics of complex political systems. There is a Peruvian theologian named Gustavo Gutierrez who deals with the issue of injustice. My favorite writer, Thomas Merton, Martin Buber, Martin Luther King. Even the popular spiritual/ethical systems set forth in the 12-Step movement.

    Incidentally, I agree that it was reprehensible for Augustine to throw away his lifetime mistress so that he could become a bishop. I think that what a person does is more revealing of his true philosophy than what he says or writes. I still admire the philosophy of Martin Luther King, despite his fallible behavior. And Bill Wilson made many people miserable when he was acting out his alcoholism, but his philosophy has helped millions to behave far better than their families could ever have hoped.

    Justin
    April 16, 2007 - 10:04 pm
    The two dimensional cutaway of San Lorenzo shows the Sacristy in floor plan. Two rooms to the left and right of the altar are the sacristy. One of the two rooms is devoted to robing prior to Mass. The vestments are stored in this room. The second room stores the utensils of the Mass.

    The tomb of the Medici contains work by Michelangelo. The tomb figures reflect his lack of knowledge of the construction of a woman's body. The sybil on the right is not a man wearing grapefruit halfs but rather what is thought to be the anatomical equivalent of a woman. There are signs in this sculpture of the Mannerist style rather than the characteristics of the Renaissance. Yet, Michelangelo is thought to be the epitome of a Renaissance artist. He is however, an artist in transition. The peak of Renaissance sculpture was reached with Donatello.

    Malryn
    April 17, 2007 - 06:41 am

    Apartment for rent in the Pandolfini mansion

    More about this 14th c villa

    Malryn
    April 17, 2007 - 06:45 am

    Tomb of the Medici. Click image for larger view of Michelangelo's work

    Malryn
    April 17, 2007 - 07:23 am

    Among the Titan's rivals was the sculptor Pietro Torrigiano, who worked with him in Lorenzo's garden of statuary, and broke his nose to win an argument. Lorenzo was so incensed by this violence that Torrigiano took refuge in Rome. He became a soldier in Cesar Borgia's service, fought bravely in several battles. Found his way to England, and designed there one of the masterpieces of English art -- the tomb of Henry VII in Westminster Abbey.

    Wandering restlessly to Spain, he carved a handsome Madonna and Child fir the Duke of Arcos, But the duke underpaid him. The sculptor smashed the statue to bits. The vengeful aristocrat denounced him to the Inquisition as a heretic. Torrigiano was sentenced to severe punishment, but cheated his foes by starving himself to death.


    This is one impetuous Italiano. Bite off your nose to spite your face? Wonder if vino had anything to do with this?

    Malryn
    April 17, 2007 - 07:27 am

    Tomb of Henry VII

    Justin
    April 17, 2007 - 01:06 pm
    The tomb of Henry V11 is in Westminster Abbey. There are two recumbant figures- Henry and his wife. The faces were done from death masks and thus give us a bit of realism in a Renaissance work. You might like to see one of his works in Terra cotta. It is in Seville and called " St. Jerome Kneeling in Penitence". There are only four or five of his works extant but each one is a masterpiece.

    Malryn
    April 17, 2007 - 04:31 pm

    Tomb of Henry VII and Elizabeth of York

    Malryn
    April 17, 2007 - 04:37 pm

    Terra cotta bust of Henry VII by Torrigiano

    Malryn
    April 18, 2007 - 03:40 pm

    Florence had never had so many great artists at one time as in 1492, but many of those fled from her turbulence and lent their reknown to other scenes. Leonardo went to Milan, Michalangelo to Bologna, Andrea Sansovino to Lisbon. Sansovino took his cognomen from Monte San Savino, and made it so famous that the world forgot his real name, Andrea di Domenico Contucci. Born the son of a poor laborer, he developed a passion for drawing and for moderliing in clay. A kindly Florentine sent him to the studio of Antonio dei Pollaiuolo.

    Maturing rapidly, he built for the church of Santo Spirito a chapel of the Scrament, with statues and reliefs "so vigorous and excellent," said Vasari, "that they are without a flaw." Before it he placed a bronze grille that halts the breath with its beuaty.

    King John VII of Portugal begged Lorenzo to send the young artist to him. Andrea went and labored nine years there in sculpture and architecture. Lonesome for Italy, he returned to Florence (1500) but soon passed to Genoa and finally to Rome.

    In Santa Maria del Popolo he built two marble tombs -- for Cardinal Sforza and Basso della Rovere -- which won high acclaim in a city then (1506-7) buzzing with geniuses.

    Leo X sent him to Loreto, and there (1523-8 ) Andrea adorned the church of Santa Maria with a seris of reliefs from the life of the Virgin, so beautiful that the angel in the Annunciation seemed to Vasari "not marble but celestial."

    Soon afterward Andrea retired to a farm near his native Monte San Savino, lived energetically as a peasant, and died in 1529 aged sixty-eight.

    What a marvelous life for an artist! Comments?

    Justin
    April 18, 2007 - 11:19 pm
    There were two Sansovinos.Andrea the elder by 25 years is largely known for his Sforza and Basso tomb sculptures and also a group called the Virgin and Child with St Anne. He was trained by Pollaiuolo who was a far better painter than a sculptor. Andrea, like so many others, left Florence for Portugal. Little or nothing of his work in Portugal is available.

    Andrea trained Jacopo who took the name Sansovino and lived thirty years after Andrea. He worked with Bramante in Rome but at the time of the sack he fled to Venice.

    Florence was not a very pleasant place during this period and the artists of the period who nomally would have been resident there were expatriots living and working elsewhere. The same exodus applied to Rome after the sack. Venice rose to prominence and housed such painters as Titian, Bellini, and others. The della Robbias remained in Florence and the skills of Luca were passed along to his sons.

    Malryn
    April 19, 2007 - 06:24 am

    Meanwhile the della Robbia family had faithfully and skillfully carried on the work of Luca in glazed clay. Andrea della Robbia exceeded in longevity even the eighty-five years of his uncle, and had time to train three sons in the art -- Giovanni, Luca and Girolarmo.

    Andrea's terra cottas have a brilliance of tone and a tenderness of sentiment that snare the eye and still the feet of the museum traveler. A room in the Bargello is rich with him, and the Hospital of the Innocents is distinguished by his decorative lunette of the Annunciation.

    Giovanni della Robbia rivaled his father Andrea's excellence, as one may see in the Bargello and the Louvre. The della Robbias almost confined themselves to religious subjects through three generations.. They were among the most fervent supporters of Savonarola, and two of Andrea's sons joined the Brethren of San Marco to week salvation with the friar.


    The church I grew up in in Haverhill, Massachusetts has a room adjoining the sanctuary, which is separated by a retractable wall. When there was a congregation overflow, the wall was opened, and people were seated in this room.

    The church itself is very English Gothic in appearance; heavy, it seems to me. It weighed on me every time I went in it. In the room next to the sanctuary there is, however, a copy of a della Robbia madonna and child. That piece of bas relief on the wall lightened the atmosphere, and brought a breath of fresh air into the place.

    "Andrea's terra cottas have a brilliance of tone and a tenderness of sentiment that snare the eye and still the feet of the museum traveler. "
    Isn't that glorious writing? I know exactly what he means.

    Malryn
    April 19, 2007 - 06:32 am

    Hospital of the Innocents Gallery

    Justin
    April 19, 2007 - 08:40 pm
    Mal: You do bring up the nicest images. Lets start with the Ospedale it self. The facade of the structure is a simplistic, uncluttered presentation of a Roman arcade. The horizontal lines above the arcade are pure Renaissance. In Venitian palazzos they tend to be cluttered with decoration but in Brunelleschi's design the lines are clean and dramatic.The design of the Cloister where the monks walk while reading a breviary is similar.

    JoanK
    April 19, 2007 - 11:55 pm
    They are very beautiful!

    Mallylee
    April 20, 2007 - 02:42 am
    Malryn, in the Hospital of the Innocents' Gallery in the website my favourite is the Botticelli Mdonna with One Angel. I like the way the serious faced girl angel is looking at the viewer while the turn of her body is towards the Baby, causing a look-again moment.I like th archway that is like an over arching halo. I like the symbolic colours of the Virgin's clothes.

    I admire the Brunelleschi architecture. If I knew more about music I would have fun decdiding on which musical structures were like it. I bet there is something balanced that repeats the same motif over and ove again.

    Thanks for posting.

    Fifi le Beau
    April 20, 2007 - 09:36 am
    The Medici's may have controlled Florence and the office of the Pope, and built churches and tombs and castles for themselves, but the Wool Guild showed their humanistic view by commissioning and financing this building for the care of infants and children.

    Since it provided care for over 500 years, the architect and builders showed their foresight and competence. We have a tendency in this country to put something up and then knock it down after a few years from municipal buildings to homes.

    Having an acquaintance who lives in an older upscale closed enclave that I visit occasionally, I am always amazed that each time a home is sold they bring in the wrecking ball and bulldozers and build again from the ground up. The waste is enormous as we live in a throw away society.

    Fifi

    Malryn
    April 21, 2007 - 02:35 pm

    The painters felt Savonarola's influence most deeply. Lorenzo di Credi leaned his art from Verrocchio; imitated the style of his fellow student Leonardo, and took the tenderness of his religious paintings from the piety nurtured in him by Savonarola's eloquence and fate.

    He spent half his life painting Madonnas; we find them everywhere -- in Rome, Florence, Turin, Avignon, Cleveland, the faces poor, the robes magnificent. Perhaps the best is the Annuciation in the Uffizi. At the age of seventy-two, feeling it time to take on the savor of sanctity, Lorenzo went to live with the monks of Santa Maria Nuova, and there, six years later, he died.


    How about someone else posting links to artwork? It's easy. Just copy the URL of the page and paste it here.

    Malryn
    April 21, 2007 - 02:41 pm

    Links to artwork by Lorenzo di Credi


    THE ANNUNCIATION. Click image for larger one

    Fifi le Beau
    April 21, 2007 - 03:46 pm
    Here is Lorenzo di Credi's 'Madonna and child' at the J. Paul Getty museum.

    The architectural drawing in his paintings is so balanced and makes such a wonderful setting, that the people seem to be intruders. I look at the Madonna and child and attendant, but it is the architecture and setting of the scene that I am drawn to.

    http://www.getty.edu/art/gettyguide/artObjectDetails?artobj=598&handle=li

    Fifi

    Malryn
    April 23, 2007 - 06:49 am

    CONTINUING WITH DURANT

    Piero di Cosimo took his cognomen from Cosimo Rosselli, for "he who instructs ability and promotes well-being is as truly a father as the one who begets."

    Cosimo came to the conclusion that his pupil surpassed him. Summoned by Sixtus IV to decorate the Sistine Chapel, he took Piero with him, and Piero painted there "The Destruction of Pharoah's Troops in the Red Sea" with a gloomy landscape of water, rocks and cloudy sky.

    He has left us two magnificent portraits, back in the Hague; of Giuliao da Sangallo and Francesco da Sangallo. Piero was all artist acaring little for society or friendship, loving nature and solitude, absorbed in the pictures and scenes that he painted.

    He died unconfessed and alone, having transmitted his art to two pupils who followed his example by surpassing their master:- Fra Bartolommeo and Andrea del Sarto.

    Malryn
    April 23, 2007 - 06:58 am

    PIERO DI COSIMO

    Fifi le Beau
    April 23, 2007 - 04:37 pm
    Mal's link on Piero di Cosimo stated that he liked to paint animals and dogs especially. Looking for a painting with a dog in it, I found 'A Satyr mourning over a Nymph'. Click on 'image only' under the photo to get a better view.

    The nymph has wounds on her hand, wrist, and throat. A dog sits at her feet. The dog seems out of scale in this painting, at least that is what I see.

    Justin we need your expertise.

    A Satyr in Greek mythology had the head and body of a man and the legs of a goat. They had pointed ears and sometimes horns and were lechers. In the blow up of this painting the legs are goatlike and he has the telltale ears.

    The Nymph and the Satyr

    Fifi

    bluebird24
    April 23, 2007 - 05:19 pm
    http://www.artchive.com/artchive/P/piero_di_cosimo.html

    there are 6 pictures here:) go down page

    Justin
    April 23, 2007 - 11:16 pm
    Piero Di Cosimo was a guy who had a vision of his own. At the turn of the Cinquiecnto most serious painters were copying Raphael and his religious subjects and particularly his madonnas. Piero painted mythology and his portraits were done in the guise of historical figures. A portrait of Miss Vespuci was completed in the guise of Cleopatra with exposed breasts and snake necklace- a work very different from the madonnas of Raphael. In 1495 Signorelli painted a scene in which Pan lectures to other figures. Piero followed it up with an image of the dead Procris, wounded by her husband, and mourned by a wandering Satyr. The dog at her feet, always a symbol of faithfulness, is less so in this case for Piero's whimsical bent is more the cause.

    Malryn
    April 24, 2007 - 05:33 am

    MORE FROM THE BOOK.

    Baccio della Porta took his last name from the gate of San Piero where he lived. When he became a friar he received the name Fra Bartolommeo -- Brother Bartholomew. Having studied with Cosimo Rosselli and Piero di Cosimo, he opened a studio with Mariotto Albertinelli, paointed many pictures in collaboration with him, and remained bound to him in a fine friendship till parted by death.

    He was a modest youth, eager for instruction and receptive to every influence. For a time he sought to catch the subtle shading of Leonardo, When Raphael came to Florence, Baccio studied perspective with him, and better blending of colors. Later he visited Raphael in Rome and painted with him a noble "Head of St. Peter". Finally, he fell in love with the majestic style of Michelangelo, but he lacked the terrible intensity of the angry giant, and when Bartolommeo attempted the monumental he lost in th e enlargement of his simple ideas the charm of his qualities -- the rich depth of his colors, the stately symmetry of his composition, the piety and sentiment of his themes.

    Malryn
    April 24, 2007 - 05:36 am

    Baccio della Porta

    Malryn
    April 24, 2007 - 05:40 am

    Baccio della Porta

    Justin
    April 24, 2007 - 12:13 pm
    Frankly, Bartolomeo's work has always appeared to me to be run of the mill. He has some of the qualities of Raphael and some of the shading power of Leonardo and much of the loose coloring of Del Sarto as well as his compositional techniques. But there is not much that is Bartolomeo. In the Madonna shown in 642 the child exhibits three fingers as a symbol of the (you guessed it) Trinity.

    Adrbri
    April 24, 2007 - 02:04 pm
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portrait_of_Simonetta_Vespucci_(Piero_di_Cosimo)

    Brian

    Malryn
    April 26, 2007 - 04:10 am

    QUOTED FROM THE BOOK

    He was deeply stirred by the sermons of Savonarola. He brought to the burning o the vanities al of his paintings of the nude. When the enemies of the friar attacked the convent of San Narco in 1498, he joined in its defense. In the course of the melee he vowed to become a monk if he survived. He kept his pledge and in 1500 he joined the Domican monastery at Prato.

    For five years he consented to add his masterpieces in blue, red and black to the rosy frescoes of Fra Angelico. There, in the refectory, he painted a "Madonna and Child" and a "Last Judgment." In the cloisters a "San Sebastian", and in Savonarola's cell a powerful portrait of the friar in the guise of St, Peter Martyr.

    The "San Sebastian" was the only nude that he painted after becoming a monk. Originally it was placed in the church of San Marco, but it was so handsome that some women confessed to having been stirred to wicked thoughts by it, and the priest sold it to a Florentine who sent it to the King of France.

    Fra Bartolommeo continued to paint until 1517 when disease so paralyzed his hands that he could no longer hold a brush. He died in that year, at the age of forty-five.


    What a loss to the world when Bartolommeo's nudes were consigned to the burning of the vanities. What a shame!

    Malryn
    April 26, 2007 - 04:13 am

    SAN SEBASTIAN by Bartolommeo

    Justin
    April 26, 2007 - 01:10 pm
    "Wicked thoughts," "shame for the nude body." Why is it so important to these people to be ashamed of what they are, of what they think and of the things they do to make more of these shameful bodies. What a pity we do not allow ourselves to appreciate the beauties of this creation. If one accepts the Genesis story, one should not be averse to nude bodies in a garden nor should the begats be seen as wicked. What fools we mortals be.

    Fifi le Beau
    April 27, 2007 - 08:33 pm
    Justin, fools indeed.

    The entire animal kingdom lives quite content in the body they have without adornment. They have however adapted to their environment much better than humans.

    We humans have not adapted and therefore must protect ourselves against the raging sun and the bitter cold with a cover up. I have fair skin and blue eyes so that direct sun can only be tolerated for a short time. The cold winds of winter mean an additional layer of clothing.

    Perhaps had we remained naked, we would have adapted to whatever climate we lived in. With ancestry from western Europe perhaps I would have grown some fur or feathers that would have molted in Spring and looked like a plucked chicken.

    Regardless, there should be no shame in ones body or in sex. The shame is allowing those perverted minds to prevail and create evil, from a natural and human response.

    Fifi

    Ginny
    April 28, 2007 - 08:37 am
    Hi, am just interrupting this splendid discussion to say that Robby has asked me to say that he will not be able to offer The Descent of Man on May 1, due to unforseen circumstances. He's very proud of your progress here, and hopes to be back soon.

    Malryn
    April 29, 2007 - 05:08 am

    TO CONTINUE:

    His only rival for supremacy among the Italian painters of this period was another disciple of Piero di Cosimo. Andrea Domenico d"Agnolo di Francesco Vannucci is known as Andrea del' Sarto because his father was a tailor. Like most Renaissance artists he developed quickly, beginning his apprenticeship at seven. Piero marveled at the lad's skill in design, and noted with warm approval how Andrea, when a holyday closed the studio, spent his time drawing the figures in the famous cartoons made by Leonardo and Michelangelo for the Hall of the Five Hundred in the Palazzo Vecchio.

    When Piero became in old age too eccentric a master Andrea and fellow student Franciabigio set up their 9own "bottega", and for some time worked together.

    Andrea seems to have begun his independent career by painting in the court of the Annunziata Church (1509) five scenes from the life of San Filippi Benizi a Florentine noble who had founded the order of the Services for the special worhsip of Mary.

    These frescoes, though sorely injured by time and exposure, are so remarkable for draughtsmanship, composition, vividness of narrative, and the soft merging of warm and harmonious colors, that this atrium is n ow one of the goals of art pilgrims in Florence.

    For one of the female figures Andrea used as model the woman who in the course of these paintings became his wife -- Lucrezia del Felde, a sumptuously beautiful shrew whose dark face and raven haunted the artist in all but his dying days.


    We wish you well, ROBBY, and hope you'll soon be able to return to this fold.

    Malryn
    April 29, 2007 - 05:15 am

    Lucrecia del Felde by Andrea del Santo

    Fifi le Beau
    April 29, 2007 - 12:29 pm
    Robby, your presence is missed on this forum. I hope you are improving daily and will soon return.

    Thank you Mal for continuing to type from the book to keep this forum going. Your presence is appreciated and has been a big part of moving this story forward.

    The portrait of Lucrecia by Andrea del Santo is wonderful. Unburdened by frivolous detail, it shows a beautiful woman at her best.

    Portraiture has always interested me and I recently watched a program on the portraits of the U.S. presidents and the reaction of the sitters to the finished results. One president said, "It was the ugliest thing he had ever seen." Also the reaction of the public to the official portraits displayed in the gallery. One of the favorites does not show the full face at all but a man with his back to the painter with his head bowed in thought.

    Another program showed the 'worst portrait art' ever found in yard sales, estate sales, and auctions. Someone actually bought these pieces cheap and put them on display to show, I suppose, that many paint but few are chosen.

    Andrea del Santo would be among the chosen.

    Fifi

    Justin
    April 29, 2007 - 03:37 pm
    We old farts have our problems. While building a shelter for my firewood this morning I stepped in a gopher hole and twisted a thigh muscle. It is now packed in ice and I am trying to find a way to sit so I can type in the usual manner.

    Sarto's Madonna del Sacco once must have displayed beautiful colors but today they are faded. In the painting St. Joseph reads a book-. an unusual occupation for him. He was, and believebly so, unable to read.

    Mallylee
    May 1, 2007 - 12:33 am
    I bet that was painful, Justin!

    The pic of San Sebastian by Bartolomeo is made using a very handsome young man as model. When I blanked out his elegantly muscular body, his face looked like a girl's face, so I guess he would be about seventeen years of age. This reminded me of the controversy around The Beloved Disciple in 'The Last Supper' as discussed in 'The Da Vinci Code', in which some people were saying that The Beloved Disciple was a woman---Mary Magdalene---and Leonardo had been in the know about that.But not so! Italian painters used pretty- faced boy models to portray some of their characters.

    To consider the meaning of the Martyrdom picture; I wonder if martyrdom is less fashionable as a holy inspiration since the advent of suicidal Islamists.

    Malryn
    May 1, 2007 - 06:42 am

    QUOTED FROM THE BOOK

    In 1515 Andrea and Franciabigio undertook a series of frescoes in the cloisers of the Scalzo fraternity. They chose as subject the life of St. John the Baptist, but it was surely Andrea's hand that in several figures displayed one of his specialties, picturing the female breast in all that perfection of its texture and form.

    In 1518 he accepted the invitation of Francis I to come to France. There he painted the figure of Charity that hangs in the Louvre. His wife back in Florence begged him to come back. The king granted permission on Andrea's pledge to return, and entrusted him with a considerable sum to buy works of art for him in Italy.

    Andrea, in Florence, spent the royal funds in building himself a house, and never went back to France.

    Facing bankruptcy nevertheless, he resumed his painting, and produced for the cloisters of the Annuziata a masterpiece which, said Vasari, "in design, grace, excellence of coloring, and relief, proved him far superior to all his predecessors" -- who included Leonardo and Raphael.

    The "Madonna del Sacco" -- absurdly called because Mary and Joseph are shown leaning against a sack -- is now damaged and faded, and no longer conveys the full splendor of its color; but its perfect composition, soft tones, and quiet presentation of a family -- with Joseph suddenly literate, reading a book -- make it one of the great pictures of the Renaissance.

    Malryn
    May 1, 2007 - 06:45 am

    MADONNA DEL SACCO. Scroll down

    Justin
    May 1, 2007 - 12:27 pm
    The Annunziata del Sacco is not only interesting because St Joseph reads but it has qualities that one finds in few Holy Families. The color is damaged. yes, but the character of the iconography has changed substantially from what we have previously known.The husband and wife and older child are more human and less a spiritual combination. Joseph is not a doting subserviant. He is independently distracted while reading a book. The images are becoming more Baroque. The setting is architectural and the figures are recessed into a Romanesque arcade. The acoutrements of the figures spill over into our space, not completely but there is more than just a hint of spill over.

    The Annunziata is a beautiful place. The simplicity of Bruneleschi's arcaded facade leads one into a completely Baroque interior nave sumptiously displayed in light blue and gold.

    It is so hard to leave this place. Fortunately, some of it remains in the memory.

    Mallylee
    May 2, 2007 - 02:04 pm
    I cannot make out what is going on in The Birth of the Virgin'. There is a heavily pregnant woman being supported by another woman, beside the bed.(St Ann?) there is a servant(?) apparently on the bed . I wondered if she were there to support the woman during the birth. There is a baby being bathed beside the fireplace, by another servant.

    A very grand bedroom! I guess that the artist purposed to impress viewers with the grandeur of the holy occasion.

    Justin
    May 2, 2007 - 02:52 pm
    Mallylee; I don't blame you for being confused. The scene is mislabeled. It is a post-partum event that is common even today. The child is on display. Mom is dressed in a pleasant looking bed jacket and all the aunts have come to bill and coo. The setting is archtectural. It was popular at that time.Fifty years prior the setting would have been a cloth of honor behind a pyramid of principals.

    If you read the "Red Tent" you know that delivery among the ancient Jews is accomplished while standing on blocks in a red tent that is set apart from the rest of the community.

    Mallylee
    May 3, 2007 - 12:37 am
    thanks Justin, it is a good feeling to understand something that was previously puzzling

    Mallylee
    May 3, 2007 - 12:41 am
    Justin says The Annunciata is a beautiful place which it is hard to leave. I have never been there. Is it entirely necessary to have been there to appreciate it, or does some of the beauty come through in the picture? Is it true that the arches and single storey effect a feeling of gentleness?

    Malryn
    May 3, 2007 - 06:07 am

    FROM THE BOOK

    In the refectory of the Salvi monastery, Andrea challenged Leonardo with a "Last Supper" (1526) choosing the same moment and theme -- "One of you shall betray me." Bolder than Leonardo, Andrea finished the face of his Christ; even he, however, fell far short of the spiritual depth and understanding gentleness that we associate with Jesus. But the apostles are strikingly individualized, the action is vivid, the colors are rich and soft and full, and the picture as seen from the entrance of the refectory conveys almost irresistily the illusion of a living scene.

    The Virgin Mother remained the favorite subject of Andrea, as of most artists of Renaissance Italy. He painted her again and again in studies of the Holy Family, as in the Borghese Galllery in Rome, or the Metropolitan Museum in New York.

    He pictured her in one of the treasures of the Uffizi Gallery as "Madonna del Arpie, Madonna of the Harpies". This is the fairest of the Lucrezia Virgins, and the Child is the finest in Italian art.

    Acoss the Arno in the pitti Gallery, the "Assumption of the Virgin" shows Apostles and holy women lookiing up in amazement and adoration as cherubim raise the praying Madonna -- again Lucrezia -- to heaven. So, in Andrea's colorful illuminations, the moving epos of the Virgin is complete.



    MADONNA OF THE HARPIES

    Justin
    May 3, 2007 - 09:12 pm
    The frontal arcade at Annunziata provides a sense of symmetry, balance, and order that is pleasing to the mind. It is the Greek ideal expressed in sixteenth century architectural terms.The language is that of Fifth century Greece and the Parthenon and it is that characteristic that makes the Renaissance a renaissance. The evidence of that can be seen and experienced in photographs. When seen in the flesh we experience the work in relation to ourselves. We are part of the scene. .

    Mallylee
    May 3, 2007 - 11:28 pm
    It would be interesting to know something of the psychology that causes some architecture to be more sympathique . I wonder how much is intrinsic to human psychology. My guess is a lot. E.g. Feng Shui is obviously psychology based.

    I understand how being part of the scene makes the spirit of the place so much more relevant. Even the weather , or companions, during a visit to a place adds to an experience,

    Symmetry, balance and order; are they constants in good art?I will watch for these.And listen!

    Mallylee
    May 3, 2007 - 11:34 pm
    I womder what is the iconographic significance of Joseph reading a book.

    Fifi le Beau
    May 4, 2007 - 10:43 am
    The harpies on the pedestal that Madonna stands on are from Greek mythology. They are described as the head and body of a woman with the arms and legs of a bird, wings and claws with the hind legs of an insect.

    The definition of 'harpie' for me is a fanatic who cannot change their mind, and refuses to change the subject.

    The worship of Mary seemed to be the driving force behind Christianity in the early years. We have already read that women and slaves were the dominate converts to early Christianity and that the Popes and priests tried to stamp out the Mary worship as blasphemy early on but were never successful.

    The Protestants will put an end to 'Mary worship' for millions when they break away from the Roman Catholic church. Mary is revered in Protestantism but not worshiped, nor are the Saints. That will be one of the many reasons for the break.

    The paintings of Mary with Jesus is one of a mother and infant. Since the scripture takes Jesus's life from infancy to adult male in one fell swoop, the artists seemed to have avoided the boy, teenager, and young adult male with his mother.

    Of course it is more sympathetic to see a mother with a baby in her arms than a towering lanky teenager with growing pains. The mother might not look so angelic in that one, at least in 'real' life.

    Fifi

    Justin
    May 4, 2007 - 12:24 pm
    Mallylee: Symmetry, balance and order are constants in idealized classical forms. Realism is an opposite and may well be considered "good art". Picasso's Cubism, on the other hand,breaks up symmetry, order and balance and challenges the viewer to find those elements in a composition.

    Justin
    May 4, 2007 - 12:45 pm
    Idealism and realism are constantly pulling at each other in the history of art. The forms of the late Medieval period were idealized images with gold backgrounds and a two dimensional spiritual appearance in figures. As the Renaissance began these idealized forms slowly disappeared. Giotto gave us narrative settings with full figures. Donatello emphasized movement in his sculptures. These efforts are all designed to pull us away from idealized forms and to push us in the direction of reality. In the del Sarto "Holy Family" the size of the child, the appearance of the mother, and the independent distractedness of Joseph, who reads, is an expression of the movemnt in art toward reality.

    Malryn
    May 4, 2007 - 03:58 pm

    FROM THE BOOK

    There is seldom any sublimity in Andrea del Sarto, no majesty of Michelangelo, not the unfathomable nuances of Leonardo, nor the finished perfection of Raphael, nor yet the range and power of the great Venetians. Yet he alone of all the Florentines rivals the Venetians in color and Coreggio in grace. His mastery of tones -- in their depth and modulation and transparency -- might well be preferred to te lavishment of color in Titian, Tintoretto and Veronese.

    We miss varity in Andrea; his paintings move in too small a circle of subject and sentiment. His hundred Madonnas are always the same Italian mother, modest and lovely and at last cloyingly sweet. But no on surpassed him in composition, few in anatomy, modeling and design.

    "There is a little fellow in Florence," said Michelangelo to Raphael, 'who will bring sweat to your brow if ever he is engaged in great works."

    Andrea himself never lived to full maturity. The victorious Germans,, capturing Florence in 1530, infected it with plague, and Andrea was one of its victims. His wife, who had aroused in him all the heartaches of jealousy that beauty brings to marriage, shunned his room in those last fevered days. The artist who had given her an almost deathless life died with no one by his side at the age of forty-four.

    About 1570 Jacopo di Empoli went to the court of the Annunziata to copy del Sarto's "Nativity". An old lady who had come to Mass stopped beside him and pointed to a figure in the forground of the painting. "It is I," she said. Lucrezia had outlived herself by forty years.

    Justin
    May 4, 2007 - 09:43 pm
    The physical shells we become of our former youthful selves is dismaying at times. I look in the mirror occasionally and see an egg shape and wonder where that came from. Lucrezia must have been dismayed to find her youthful self in so many places around town.

    Mallylee
    May 5, 2007 - 12:48 am
    Is Lucrezia the name of the model of the Madonnas?

    I find myself very interested in the sort of art criticism that compares and contrasts large movements in art and the significance of the broad ideas that the masters follow. I would really like to know more. Justin's reference to Picasso and the (novelty?) of the active involvement of the viewer raises a whole new set of comparisons.

    I wonder how the viewer was involved by classical paintings and sculpture;more passively , presumably; but to what end? Did all classical paintings of this period have religious subjects?

    Is it correct that medieval religious paintings were holy objects, like holy statues were venerated as having real power, and in some parts of the world, still are.

    I am beginning to wonder if the active involvement of viewers after the age of Picasso signifies the broadening of the religious passion into curiosity about the everyday, and the positioning of God in the world and in human consciousness.

    Thanks to Malryn for the presentations, and to Justin for the stimulating analyses

    Justin
    May 5, 2007 - 01:05 pm
    Mallylee: Yes, Lucrezia was th wife of Andrea del Sarto and his model for his many Madonnas.

    Adrbri
    May 5, 2007 - 02:11 pm
    Andrea del Sarto painted His hundred Madonnas

    Raphael painted 300 !!

    Brian

    Malryn
    May 7, 2007 - 07:21 am

    Quoted from the book

    The few artists we have here commemorated must be viewed not as a record, but as representatives of the plastic and graphic genius of this period. There were other suclptors and painters of the time, who still lead a ghostly existence in museums -- Benedetto da Rovezzano, Franciabigio, Ridolfo Ghirlandaio and hundreds more.

    There were half-secluded artists, monastic and secular, who still practised the intimate art of illuminating manuscrips, like Fra Fastachio and Antonio di Girolamo.

    There were calligraphers whose handwriting might excuse Frederigo of Urbano for regressing the invention of print. There were mosaicists who despised painting as the perishable pride of a day, wood carvers like Bacco d'Agnolo , whose carved chairs, tables, chests and beds were the glory of Florentine home, and nameless other workers in the minor arts.

    Florence was so rich in art that she could bear the depredations of invaders, pontiffs and millionaires from Charles VII to our own times, and still retain so much of delicate workmanship that no man has ever compassed all the treasures deposited in that one city by the two centuries of the Renaissance. Or by one century; for just as the great age of Florence in art had begun with Cosimo's return from exile in 1414, so it ended with Andrea del Sarto's death in 1530.

    Civil strife, Savonarola's puritan regime, siege and defeat and plague, had destroyed the joyful spirit of Lorenzo's day, had broken the fragile lyre of art.

    The great chords had struck, and their music echoed throughout the peninsula. Orders came to Florence artists from other Italian cities, even from France, Spain, Hungary, Germany and Turkey. To Florence flocked a thousand artists to learn her lore and form their styles -- Piero della Francesca, Perugino, Raphael . . . . . From Florence a hundred artists took the gospel of art to half a hundred Italian cities and to foreign lands. In those half hundred cities the spirit and taste of the age, the generosity of wealth, the heritage of technique worked together with the Florentine stimulus.

    Presently all Italy, from the Alps to Calabria, was painting, carving, building, composing, singing, in a creative frenzy that seemed to know, in the fever of the time, that soon the wealth would vanish in war, and the pride of Italy would be humbled under an alien tyranny, and the prison doors of dogma would close again upon the marvelous exuberant mind of Renaissance man.


    What a marvelous era for art. Don't you love this? "The prison doors of dogma would close again"

    I have sworn I'd get to Florence before I die. If some kindly, saintly benefactor would take me under his or her wing, I'll make it.

    Mallylee
    May 7, 2007 - 04:02 pm
    http://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/html/g/ghirland/domenico/index.html

    I chose the Ghirlandaio pictures, because I once copied a detail of one of them in watercolour, and I liked the detail

    Fifi le Beau
    May 8, 2007 - 08:07 pm
    Italy was blessed to have over one hundred years of relative freedom to donate to the arts. The rest of Europe was embroiled in one war after another.

    The method of sending promising talent to train with those already recognized as artists, some as young as seven, seemed to have produced many good and some great artists. Is that still the method used in Europe? It doesn't seem to be the practice here. Maybe Justin can enlighten us on that observation.

    Fifi

    Justin
    May 8, 2007 - 09:43 pm
    The apprenticeship system has gone out of favor. But budding artists still flock to more skillful artists for training. Several local watercolorists in my part of paradise take students to Europe for training every summer. Others hold weekly classes for students. The student pays with money. During the Renaissance an apprentice or his parent signed an agreement with the artist who promised to train the boy in his botegga for a period of years. The boy promised to do all that he was asigned to do in exchange for food, housing, and experience for the duration of the contract.

    Malryn
    May 9, 2007 - 05:26 am

    Book III

    ITALIAN PAGEANT

    1378-1534

    Malryn
    May 9, 2007 - 05:37 am

    We do injustice to the Renaissance when we concentrate our study on Florence, Venice and Rome. For a decade it was more brilliant in Milan, under Lodovico and Leonardo, than in Florence. Its liberation and exaltation of woman found their best embodiment in Isabella d'Este at Mantua. It glorified Parma with Correggio, Perugio with Perugino, Orvieto with Signorelli.

    Its literature reached an apex with Ariosto di Ferrara, and it cultivation of manners at Urbino in the days of Catiglione. It gave name to ceramic art at Faenza, and to the Palladian architectural style at Vicenza..

    It revived Siena with PInturicchio and Sassetta and Sodoma, and made Naples a home and symbol of joyous living and idyllic poetry. We must pawss leisurely through the incomparable peninsula from Piedmont to Sicily, and let the varied voices of the cities merge in the polyphonic chorus of the Renaissance.

    Adrbri
    May 9, 2007 - 07:50 am
    http://people.smu.edu/shulsey/

    Brian.

    Justin
    May 9, 2007 - 03:00 pm
    Thank you, Brian. The story of Isabella's portraits is fascinating. She was inclined to improve upon her image while at the same time not depicting another person. She was a very difficult assignment for a portraitist. Modern photographers have similar problems.

    Isabella is better known for her role as a patron of the arts. Prior to this period, you will recall, the Church was the only patron and it's money and desires called the tune for artists. The subjects tended to be religious and narrative in form. Now that private patrons such as Isabella, have come to offer their tastes in art there is a shifting away from religious art and toward secular subjects. Were it not for the collecting habits of Isabella and patrons like her we , today, would not have many of the works from the late Renaissance we now now enjoy.

    Adrbri
    May 9, 2007 - 07:31 pm
    We have just finished reading Schama's "Rembrandt's Eyes", and one of the major factors in the patronage of Rubens and that of Rembrandt was based on their religious beliefs. Rubens was a Catholic, and had ready access to the funds of the church. Rembrandt on the other hand had to rely on the millers and landowners of Amsterdam.

    Brian.

    Malryn
    May 10, 2007 - 05:02 am

    My darling daughter is coming today from North Carolina, where I lived for quite a long time, to spend the weekend with me. My loving fat cat, Bibby, and I are very excited about this. We haven't had any stay-overnight company for a year or so, you see.

    I'll do the best I can, but if I don't post from the book some days, until after Monday, I hope you will understand.

    Mal

    Malryn
    May 10, 2007 - 05:25 am

    The economic life of the Italian states in the fifteenth century was as diverse as their climate, dialects and costumes. The north, i.e. above Florence, could have severe winters, sometimes freezing the Po from end to end. Yet the coastal region around Genoa, sheltered by the Ligurian Alps, enjoyed mild weather in almost month.

    Venice could shroud its palaces and towers and liquid streets in clouds and mist. Rome was sunny but miasmic. Naples was a climatic paradise.

    Everywhere, at one time or another, the cities and their countryside suffered those earthquakes, floods, droughts, tornadoes, famiines, plagues and wars that a Malthusian Nature suddenly provides to compensate for the rperoductive ectasties of mankind.,

    In the towns the old handicrafts supplied the poor with a living and the rich wih superfluities. Only the textile industry had reached the factory and capitalist stage. One silk mill at Bologna contracted with the city authorities to do "the work of 4000 spinning women."

    Petty trademen, merchants of import and export, teachers, lawyers, physicians, administrators, politicians, made up a complex middle class. A wealthy and worldly clergy added their color and grace to the courts and the streets, and monks and friars wandered about seeking alms or romance.

    The aristocracy of landowners and financiers lived for the most part within the city walls, occasionally in rural villas. At the top a banker, condottierre, marquis, duke, doge, or king, with his wife or mistress, presided over a court hampered with luxuries and gilded with art.

    In the countryside the peasant tilled his modest acres or some lord's domain, and lived in a poverty so traditional that it seldom entered his thoughts.

    Justin
    May 10, 2007 - 04:28 pm
    Mal: Give my best wishes to Dorian. I hope you two thoroughly enjoy your weekend together. The Poconos must be beautiful this time of year. I do often recall fishing the Beaverkill in Sullivan County and remember the Borsht Belt in the Poconos well.

    Let's take the weekend off. See you Monday.

    ringway
    May 10, 2007 - 08:09 pm
    Robby, I am so glad that you are still around - not that I would think you aren't - just still in discussions and such.

    And dancing?

    I always liked Oliver Sacks. Old stuff, but LASTING stuff. I don't know if he still writes - or works -but I like his insights and his conclusions. He gives a lot of leeway to his observations and learns a lot from his patients.

    Just wondering.

    Good to know you are here!

    Mallylee
    May 11, 2007 - 01:22 am
    Everywhere, at one time or another, the cities and their countryside suffered those earthquakes, floods, droughts, tornadoes, famiines, plagues and wars that a Malthusian Nature suddenly provides to compensate for the rperoductive ectasties of mankind.,

    Is he joking? Is he a pre-Lovelock Gaia believer?

    ringway
    May 11, 2007 - 10:55 am
    Mally, it's not about believing - it's about thoughts already presented.

    I find myself unable to 'discuss' books, because everybody sees things differently - not much - most of the time - but books and their contents have something to do with oneselve's memories, experiences, and points of view. And they vary - quite a bit. That's why discussions are interesting.(To read about - for me).

    And yes, Durant is a giant among giants! It's a very, very well researched and put together work of our cultures, which DO exist of even the "Oriental Mind", which I guess you are resenting.

    Read his books. It will take you a while. They are worth it.

    Justin
    May 11, 2007 - 12:26 pm
    That's a wonderful phrase, Mally. I find it a very clever way to say we people love to do it and nature is the great adjuster. Who is LOvelace Gaia?

    Adrbri
    May 11, 2007 - 02:42 pm
    Justin : try searching for "Lovelock, GAIA"
    and you may yet help us to save the world.

    Brian

    Justin
    May 11, 2007 - 10:29 pm
    Very interesting hypothesis- this one of a feedback system leading to homeostasis. Darwin has already successfully postulated a link between environment and the shape of life. Many of the components must interact long term while others are constantly changing. How long will it take the earth to adjust to major changes like the rain forest and if the current homeostasis reflects that condition what will life look like when the rain forest is gone.

    Mallylee
    May 12, 2007 - 12:46 am
    It is a cheering thought that Nature will adjust to man's overgrowth, and perhaps save life on Earth before it is all gone.

    The Gaia hypothesis is optimistic. It is safer to be pessimistic, and believe that we the humans have power to save the few remaining species if and only if we make the effort.

    Malryn
    May 14, 2007 - 05:43 am

    BACK TO THE BOOK

    Slavery existed on a minor scale, chiefly in domestic service among the rich, occasionally as a supplement and corrective to free labor on large estates, especially in Sicily. Here and there even in northern Italy Genoese merchants imported them from the Balkans, southern Russia, and Islam. Male or female Moorish slaves were considered a shining ornament in Italian courts.

    In 1488 Pope Innocent VIII received a hundred Moorish slaves as a present from Ferdinand the Catholic, and distributed them as gratuities among his cardinals and friends. In 1501, after the capture of Capua, many Caputan women were sold as slaves in Rome.

    These stray facts illustrate the morals rather than the economy of the Renaissance. Slavery rarely played a significant role in the production or transport of goods.

    Transport was chiefly on muleback or by cart, or by river, canal or sea. The well-to-do traveled on horseback or in horse drawn carriages. Speed was moderate but exciting. It took two days and a good spine to ride from Perogia to Urbino -- sixty-four miles. A boat might take fourteen days from Barcelona to Gebia.

    Inns were numerous, noisy, dirty and uncomfortable. One at Padua could house 100 guests and stable 100 houses.

    Roads were rough and perilous. The main streets of cities were paved with flagstones, but were only exceptionally lighted at night. Good water was brought in from the mountains, rarely to individual homes, usually to public fountains artistically designed, by whose cooling flow simple women and idle men gathered and distributed the news of the day.


    Thanks, folks. It was a lovely weekend, topped off by dinner yesterday at a chop chop Hibachi Japanese restaurant where I was called "Mama San".

    Robby wrote that his shoulder is better, but still tender. He might come by this week. Thinking of you, O Great Facilitator!

    Mama San Mal

    Adrbri
    May 14, 2007 - 04:59 pm
    A good picture of the place of slavery during the Renaissance can be found here : - http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/REN/BACK.HTM

    Glad you enjoyed your week-end, Mama San. It was good to hear that Robby is getting better.

    Brian

    Fifi le Beau
    May 14, 2007 - 09:09 pm
    Durant writes.....

    In 1501, after the capture of Capua, many Caputan women were sold as slaves in Rome.

    How many times have we read slavery exists on a minor scale. It was not used so much to produce goods or transport them, but for household labor.

    This can mean only one thing, women. We learn that women from Capua, which is near Naples, were sold in the slave market in Rome. So all the slaves were not brought in from outside the country.

    According to the article Brian linked, once you were bought, your owner had the right to sell you again. He also had the right to 'enjoy' you. Any children born of this 'enjoyment' were free, but their prospects were not favorable.

    Considering the journey from Capua to the slave market in Rome, from Durant's description of travel, it would have been a long trek. It seems improbable that all these women were unmarried girls, what happened to the women's children? Were they slain with the men?

    There is little detail in past history of the fate of women during all the battles except that many were taken as slaves. Their journey was undocumented and their fate unknown for the most part.

    Fifi

    Justin
    May 14, 2007 - 10:04 pm
    Fifi: Capua was outside the country at that time. Naples was in Sicily and that part of the world belonged, as I recall, to the Holy Roman Emperor.

    Good news about Robbie, Mama San Mal.

    Malryn
    May 15, 2007 - 07:33 am

    The city-states that divided the peninsula were ruled in some cases -- Florence, Siena, Venice -- by mercantile oligarchies, more often by "despots" of diverse degree, who had superseded republican or communal institutions viriated by class exploitation and political violence.

    Out of the competition of storng men one emerged -- almost always of humble bitrh -- who subdued and destroyed or hired the rest, made himself absolute ruler, and in some cases transmitted his power to his heir. So the Visconti or Sforza ruled in Milan, the Scalgieri in Verona, The Carraresi in Padua, the Gonzagas in Mantua, the Estensi in Ferrara.

    Such men enjoyed a precarious popularity because they laid a lid upon faction, and made life and property safe within their whim and the city's walls. The lower classes accepted them as a last refuge from the dictatorship of ducats. The surrounding peasantry reconciled itself to them because the commons had given it neither protection nor justice nor freedom.

    The despots were cruel because they were insecure. With no tradition of legitimacy to support them, subject at any moment to assassination or revolt, they surrounded themselves with guards, ate and drank in fear of poison, and hoped for a natural death. In their earlier decades they governed by craft, corruption, and quiet murder and practised all the arts of Machiavelli before he was born.

    After 1430 they felt more secure through santification by time, and contented themselves with pacific means in domestic government. They suppressed criticism and dissent and maintained a horde of spies. They lived luxuriously and affected an impressive pomp.

    Nevertheless, they earned the tolerance and respect. even, in Ferrara and urbino, the devotion of their subjects, by improving administrations, helping the people in famine and other emergencies, relieving unemployment with public works. building churches and monasteries, beautifying their cities with art, and supporting scholars, poets and artists who might polish their diplomacy, brighten their aura and perpetuate the name.

    Malryn
    May 15, 2007 - 09:53 am

    Well, gang, we have to keep this discussion going. I just ordered "The Reformation", which is the next volume of The Story of Civilization.

    Mal

    ringway
    May 15, 2007 - 02:39 pm
    Oh !!!! I missed something. Robbie was not feeling good?

    Robbie is the most optimistic person I know - though we have never met, just exchange a few e-mails - but Ray has - and he told me about him.

    Robbie, the very best to you!!!

    Adrbri
    May 15, 2007 - 04:12 pm
    - - - were called "Houses" ( Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet is a tale of two such houses: that of Montague and Capulet).

    The Visconti from Milan, and the Sforza (I think from Venice) were two from the Renaissance,
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bianca_Maria_Visconti

    Brian

    Justin
    May 15, 2007 - 04:35 pm
    Sforza was eclectic. He ended up with Milan but on the way he led the troops of Venice, Florence, Cremona, and Milan. The guy was a leader-never mind the cause.

    Adrbri
    May 15, 2007 - 04:57 pm


    http://whc.unesco.org/pg.cfm?cid=31&id_site=828

    Brian

    Adrbri
    May 15, 2007 - 06:46 pm


    http://sd2.provincia.fe.it/Turismo/Tea.nsf/0/0D7ECACE716C4B9FC1256C37003A62F0?OpenDocument&NP=0G&Lang=EN

    Brian

    Malryn
    May 16, 2007 - 06:26 am

    TO CONTINUE:

    The despots waged frequent but usually petty war, seeking the mirage of security through the advancement of their frontiers, and having an expensive appetite for taxable terrain. They did not send their own people to war, for then they would have to arms them, which might be suicidal. Instead, they hired mercenaries and paid them with the proceeds of conquests, ransomes, confiscations and pillage.

    Dashing adventurers came down over the Alps, often with bands of hungry soldiers in their train, and sold their services as "condottieri" to the highest bidder, changing sides with the fluctuations of the fee. A tailor from Estes, known in England as Sir John Hawkwood and in Italy as Acuto, fought with strategic subtlety and tactical skill against and for Florence, amassed several hundred thousand florins, died as a gentleman farmer in 1394, and was buried with honors and art in Santa Maria del Fiore.

    Mallylee
    May 17, 2007 - 01:04 am
    Trouble with mercenaries is that they dont have affection towards their employer, and so they have to be paid more than indigenous soldiers. Then when extraordinary loyalty is needed, they naturally wo'nt produce it. Even residing in a country makes for more loyalty to it than being paid money.

    I wonder if the above theory is illustrated by troubles tht the rulers of the states had with their mercenary soldiers. Does anyone know?

    Malryn
    May 17, 2007 - 03:20 am

    The despot financed education as well as war, built schools and libraries, supported academies and universities. Every town in Italy had a school, usually provided by the Church. Every major city had a university. Under the schooling of humanists, universities , and courts, public taste and manners improved. Every second Italian became a judge of art; every important center had its own artist, and its own architectusral style. The joy of life spread, for the educated classes, from one end of Italy to the other. Manners were relatively refined, and yet instincts were unprecedentedly free. Never since the age of Augustus had genius found such an audience, such stimulating competition and such liberty.

    Malryn
    May 17, 2007 - 03:26 am

    PIEDMONT AND LIGURIA

    Malryn
    May 17, 2007 - 03:42 am

    In northwestern Italy and what is now southeastern France lay the principality of Savoy-Piedmont, whose ruliing house was till 1945 the oldest royal family in Europe. Founded by Count Humbert I as a dependency of the Holy Roman Empire, the proud little state expanded to a moment of glory under the "Green Count" Amadeus VI (1343-83), who annexed Geneva, Lausanne, Aosta and Turin, which he made his capital.

    No other ruler of his time enjoyed so fair a reputation for wisdom, justice and generosity. The Emperor Sigismund raised the counts to dukes (1418), but the first duke, Amadeus VIII, lost his head when he accpted nominaton as Antipope Felix V (1439), A century later Savoy was conquered by Francis I for France.

    Savoy and Piedmont became a battleground between France and Italy. Appollo surrendered them to Mars; they remained in the backwater of the Italian torrent, and never felt the full flow of the Renaissance. In the rich Turin Gallery, and in his native Vercelli, are the pleasant but mediocre paintings of Defendente Ferrari.

    Mallylee
    May 19, 2007 - 12:36 am
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piedmont

    Malryn
    May 19, 2007 - 04:11 am

    South of Piedmont, Liguria embraces all the glory of the Italian Riviera. On the east the Riveria di Levante, or Cost of the Rising (Sun); on the west Riviera del Ponente, or Coast of the Setting, and at their junction Genoa, almost as replendent as Naples, on a throne of hills and a spreading pedestal of blue sea.

    To Petrarch it has seemed "a city of Kings, the very temple of prosperity; the gate of joy", but that was before the Genoese debacle at Chiaggia (1378) While Venice recovered rapidly through the orderly and devoted cooperation of all classes in restoring commerce and solvency, Genoa continued a tradition of civil strife between noble and noble, nobles and commoners. Oligarchic oppression provoked a minor revolution (1383). The butchers, armed with the persuasive cutlery of their trade, led a crowed to the palage of the doge, and compelled a reduction of taxes and the exclusion of nobles from the government.
    ,br>In five years (1390-4) Genoa had ten revolutions, ten doges rose and fell. Finally order seemed more precious than freedom, and the harassed republic, fearing adsorption by Milan, gve itself over, with its Rivieras, to France (1396).

    Two years later the French were expelled in a passionate revolt. Five bloody battles were fought in the streets, twenty palaces were burned, government buildings were sacked and demolished. The value of a million florins was destroyed. Genoa again found the chaos of freedom unbearable and surrendered itself to Milan (1411). The Milanese rule became intolerable, revolution restores the republic (1415), and the strife of factions was resumed.

    3kings
    May 19, 2007 - 07:42 pm
    Renaissance Italy sounds even worse than Modern Day Middle East. Apart from some pieces art, ( which I do not care about )those 250 years must have been utter hell for those living through it.

    I wonder why historians hold the period in such wonder, and high regard ? ++ Trevor

    Mallylee
    May 19, 2007 - 11:51 pm
    3Kings, I can suggest only that for example Venice was open to such a variety of foreign influences, through the freedom that foreign trading brings, that it was a more liberated, happier place than anywhere in Europe as a whole.

    I dont know when Amsterdam became a great trading centre, with a similar liberal atmosphere,, except that by the time the Sephardic Jewish parents of the philosopher Spinoza(S the father was a rich merchant) were living in Amsterdam, it was a happy refuge for talented people from all over Europe.Then, religions still had an autocratic hold over all the people

    Not that either Renaissance Venice nor Amsterdam are equal to taday's Western world for freedom of individuals

    Persian
    May 20, 2007 - 07:30 am
    My cousin, Fleurette, will be traveling from Michigan to Italy in a few weeks to visit her paternal relatives. I've suggested that she read through the SOC posts to acquaint herself with the history of that beautiful country. I know she'll receive a warm welcome from current posters.

    JoanK
    May 20, 2007 - 09:09 am
    Hi, MALIA. I hope Fleurette can join us -- if she's like her cousin, she'll be a wonderful addition.

    The area in Maryland where I lived until recently is called the Piedmont. I'm told that's because the geology is similar to the Piedmont in Italy. It is land over an ancient mountain chain which wore down over the eons: running in a strip from south of New York City south to Georgia. This gives the land its quality: rolling hills, red clay soil, unusually vibrant green foliage. I've been through Italy's Piedmont, but before I read this, and don't know if it is similar or not

    Justin
    May 20, 2007 - 03:17 pm
    Mahlia: There are several thousand posts covering the Renaissance already archived. We began in 1300 CE- the Proto-Renaissance- and have advanced in the Durant manner to our current position. I recommend your cousin read through those archives selectively, stopping to read at posts that interest her while at the same time joining our current discussion. We are not moving at the same fast pace we have in the past so that approach is possible.

    Persian
    May 20, 2007 - 04:39 pm
    JOAN - I lived in Maryland from 1966 to 2004, but I never heard any part of the State referred to as the Piedmont. Were you in a city, town or rural area? Funny, too, that now we are in the Piedmont area of North Carolina - about 20 miles NE of Charlotte.

    JUSTIN - good suggestion. I hope Fleurette will join the discussion. She's an interesting person. I've always enjoyed SOC, although I've not posted recently.

    Malryn
    May 21, 2007 - 05:09 am

    BACK TO THE BOOK

    The one element of stability amid these fluctuations was the Bank of St. George. During the war with Venice the government had borrowed money from its citizens, and had given them promissary notes. After the war it was unable to redeem these pledges, but it turned over to the leaders the customs dues of the port. The creditors organized themselves into the Casa di San Giorgio, the House of St. George. chose a directorate of eight governors, and received from the state a palace for their use.

    The House or Company was well managed, being the least corrupt institution in the republic. It was entrusted with the collection of taxes. It lent some of its funds to the government and received in return substantial properties in Liguria, Corsica, the eastern Mediterranean, and the Black Sea.

    It became both the state treasury and a private bank, accepting deposits, disocunting notes, making loans to commerce and industry. As all factions were financially tied to it, all respected it, and left it unharmed in revolution and war. Its magnificent Renaissance palace still stands in the Piazza Caricamento.

    Malryn
    May 21, 2007 - 02:49 pm

    Palazzo di San Giorgio fresco

    Malryn
    May 23, 2007 - 07:07 am

    TO CONTINUE:

    The fall of Constantinople was an almost fatal blow to Genoa. The rich Genoese settlement at Pera, near Constantinople, was taken over by the Turks. When the impoverished republic once more submitted to France ( 1458 ), Francesco Sforza financed a revolution that expelled the French and made Genoa again a dependency of Milan (1464) The confusion that weakened Milan after the assassination of Galeazzo Maria Sforsa (1476) allowed the Genoese a brief interlude of freedom; but when Louis XII seized Milan (1499) Genoa too succumed to his power.

    At last, in the long conflict between Francis I and Charles V, a Genoese admiral, Andrea Doria, turned his ships against the French, drove them out of Genoa, and established a new republican constitution (1528), Like the govenments of Florence and Venice, it was a commercial oligarchy. Only those families were enfranchised whose names wer inscribed in "il libro oro" (The Golden Book).

    The new regime -- a senate of 400, a doge elected for two years -- brought a disciplined peace to the faction, and maintained the independence of Genoa till the coming of Napoleon.

    Comments? Please.

    Justin
    May 23, 2007 - 10:41 am
    The Genoese Senate of 400 must have been as unwieldy as the Greek forum of citizens meeting in the Agora. The US House meets with 425 and functions through committees. I suppose the Genoese Senate could have done the same.

    The Italians must hold Andrea Doria in respectful memory. They named a contemporary cruise ship for him-a ship that sunk after a collision.

    Fifi le Beau
    May 23, 2007 - 01:20 pm
    Durant writes.....

    Only those families were enfranchised whose names were inscribed in "il libro oro" (The Golden Book).

    The habit of making a list of those few enfranchised, is alive and well today. It seems to be practiced world wide. It is definitely done in this country.

    The richer they are the more exclusive they become. The point of country clubs and private clubs is exclusion, not inclusion. Those club lists fuel the society lists. A man once told his playboy friend that he wanted to put him up for a membership in his club. The friend replied, "I would not want to be in a club that would have me as a member." Now that is exclusive.

    From Mrs. Astor's list of 400, to Southampton's blue book, to Palm Beach's laminated list of names and phone numbers, from Louisville, New Orleans, Saratoga, and all points in between the 'Golden Book' lives on and they still run the country just as they did in Genoa.

    They now fly in on Gulfstream jets, and if the 'perp' tells them what they want to hear, they give their blessings and money and fly away, content in the knowledge they will become richer and more powerful.

    One can never be too exclusive or too powerful or too rich.

    Because someone is making a list and checking it twice.

    Fifi

    tooki
    May 23, 2007 - 08:54 pm
    as Fifi notes. However, the comment, “I would never belong to a club that would admit me,” is usually attributed to Groucho Marx.

    And it’s either Channel or the Duchess of Windsor who said, “One can be neither too thin or too rich.”

    tooki
    May 23, 2007 - 09:02 pm
    Here is a brief discussion of its history in Italy and the Italian city states.

    I simply do not understand the European fascination, along with some Americans, with "nobility." That some folks are better than others simply by virtue of their birth is to me a mystery.

    At the close of the Roman Empire, when the fighting began over who would own what, nobility arose because they were the warriors. I can understand that. But the perpetuation over all these centuries is absurd.

    Fifi le Beau
    May 23, 2007 - 09:54 pm
    Tooki, yes I knew that Groucho used the quote in his resignation letter to the Friars Club. He claimed it in his book as did his son in a later book.

    Groucho was talked into joining the Friars Club, and he quickly wanted out. He told them he would be leaving with some flimsy excuse, but they kept wanting him to come back, and would not accept his reason for leaving. That is when he sent the 'resignation' telegram with the quote.

    Just as the sentiment was not original to Groucho, it was also not original to the teller of this tale that I overheard in Palm Beach, but the end results were the same.

    The first American that I know who used a similar phrase with the same sentiment was Abraham Lincoln.

    “I can never be satisfied with anyone who would be block-head enough to have me” – a statement penned by Abraham Lincoln in 1838.

    There is nothing new under the sun, and for all we know some caveman may have said it after being thrown out of the local 'Rock' club.

    Fifi

    Mallylee
    May 24, 2007 - 12:41 am
    I think the aristocracy in Britain is interesting as long as it has power and wealth. The things that money can buy, such as beautiful historic houses, blood sports,the privacy of one's huge acreage,and the sort of expensive education that confers a quiet and indestructible self confidence are usually deemed desirable.

    There is popular novel about how the Queen and her family have to go to live on a council estate(social housing) it is very funny as it shows how superficial the trappings of wealth actually are.

    Hereditary titles are glamorous because of the links with historic tradition, and can be signs of belonging to an exclusive club, as described.Scottish lairds were not particularly respected and sometimes hated.Scottish people are remarkably egalitarian

    There may still be places in Europe where the old aristocracy has feudal power based on ownership of feus that people have to pay for , for the land their house stands on plus their garden ground. My father, in Scotland,30's and 40's had to pay feu duty to the laird for the land under the house and garden that my father owned.I forget when feu duty was abolished.Possibly 60's or 70's.

    The nouveau riche in Scotland, someimes foreigners, or English, are buying far too much of Scotland's land and keeping Scots off ancient rights of way . The old aristocracy in latter years well knew how to concede rights to tenants and the general public.

    Fifi le Beau
    May 24, 2007 - 09:39 am
    Mally, I read that book on the Queen being deposed and put into Council housing, which in this country is called the 'housing project'. It was a summer beach read over ten years ago and if my English side of the family had not been here for four hundred years, I would have gotten more of the irony of the book.

    The funny thing remembered is the Queen looking for coins to feed the gas meters in her apartment. It seems they provide a roof over ones head, but if you want heat and cooking, you must put coins in the gas meter. Perhaps she had squandered her welfare check and it wasn't even near the next payday.

    If I remember correctly the author selected Anne as the only member of the family who was capable of finding a job and supporting herself. It has been over ten years and I read it in one afternoon, so my memory may be hazy.

    There is no support of any monarchy at my house. They are all parasites in my book if I were to write one. The Queen would be a leech, Charles a tick, Andrew a bed bug, Margaret a mosquito, and on and on until I ran out of parasites or royalty whichever came first.

    Fifi

    JoanK
    May 25, 2007 - 01:54 am
    MALLYLEE: we are seeing that in the Brideshead Revisited discussion. Here, the noble family is a mess, but by being noble, they have access to the fine trappings of civilization:beautiful houses on beautiful scenery, art, the leisure to study etc. The people become associated with these things.

    MAHLIA: what a shame we didn't meet when we lived so close. It's the same Piedmont. It runs in a strip from south of NY city to Georgia, going through both Maryland and North Carolina. In Maryland, the term is only used in technical contexts: I met it in reading about local geology. I have an old book on it: "The Piedmont" by Godfrey (Arthur Godfrey's son: I forget his first name).

    Malryn
    May 25, 2007 - 06:44 am

    Amid the passionate disorder the city contributed far less than her due share to Italian letters, science and art. Her captains explored the seas avidly, but when her son Columbus appeared aong them, Genoa was too timid or too poor to finance his dream.

    The nobles were absorbed in politics; the merchants in gain. Neither class spared much for the adventures of the mind.

    The old cathedral at San Lorenzo was remodeled in Gothic (1307) with a majestic interior. its chapel of San Giovanni Battista (1451f) was adorned with a handsome altar and canopy by Matteo Civitali and a somber statue of the Baptist by Iacopo Sansovino.

    Andrea Doria effected almost as significant revolution in Genoese art as in govenment. He brought Fra Giovanni da Montorsoli from Florence to remodel the Palazzzo Doria a(1529) and Perino del Vaga from Rome to adorn it with frescoes and stucco reliefs, grotesques and arabeques. The result was one of the most ornate residences in Italy.

    Leone Leoni, rival and foe of Cellini, came from Rome to cast a fine medallion of the admiral. and Montorsoli designed his tomb. In Genoa, the Renaissance did not long antedate Doria, and did not long survive his death.

    Adrbri
    May 25, 2007 - 04:33 pm
    This was quite a guy!
    I particularly enjoyed the last sentence in the Wikipedia article : -
    "Judged by the standards of the day, Doria was an outstanding leader."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Doria#Doria_as_imperial_admiral

    Brian

    tooki
    May 25, 2007 - 04:48 pm
    among them the Palazzo Doria. My apologies if you've viewed this before.

    Palazzos

    Fifi le Beau
    May 25, 2007 - 08:34 pm
    Tooki, thank you for the link to Plazzo Doria, and the others as well.

    It was like taking a stroll in Palm Beach where much of the architecture is patterned after the Italian style and with wide plazas in some areas.

    Fifi

    Mallylee
    May 26, 2007 - 01:20 am
    The English 'palace' is the usual translation of 'palazzo'?

    The English word 'palace' was originally the same word as 'place', A few English or Scottish historic houses are still called '******* Place' .Comparatively recently 'palace' is the residence of a monarch.So I understand.Kings at one time were local chieftains.

    Is the same true of the word 'palazzo'? is 'palazzo' very similar to and etymologically the same as the Italian for 'place'?

    I imagine that people would respect a permanent sort of dwelling where the chief lived, and so 'Place' meant THE Place.

    Adrbri
    May 26, 2007 - 12:53 pm
    - - - thanks to M-W Dictionary.

    Palace

    Pronunciation: 'pa-l&s
    Function: noun
    Etymology: Middle English palais, from Anglo-French, from Latin palatium,
    from Palatium, the Palatine Hill in Rome where the emperors' residences were built
    1 a : the official residence of a chief of state (as a monarch or a president) b chiefly British : the official residence of an archbishop or bishop
    2 a : a large stately house b : a large public building c : a highly decorated place for public amusement or refreshment

    Brian

    tooki
    May 26, 2007 - 01:52 pm
    Good point about “place,” Mally.

    I think there is abundant but elusive evidence in books such as John Keegan’s, “History of Warfare,” William Manchester’s, “A World Lit Only By Fire,” let alone Durant and books on the origins or war, that the concepts of kingship and nobility arose as a result of the need for a chief warrior who, of course, had a “place,” as Mally noted. (Except for the Huns and Mongols whose place was on the back of a horse!)

    I haven’t yet found a book devoted entirely to the history and rise of the nobility. I think the definitive book remains to be written. Any takers?

    P.S. Keegan taught for many years at Sandhurst, the West Point of England. He noted, in varying contexts, the “excessive politeness” of the students, surely a result of an “expensive education.”

    Fifi le Beau
    May 26, 2007 - 03:58 pm
    Brian's link to Andrea Doria and his interesting life mentioned his expedition against Tripoli, and then later his nephews expedition that had the same failed results.

    Taking a look at he link to 'Tripoli' in the Andrea Doria article, yielded the following paragraph on Italy's interest in the area and the history that followed after three hundred more years of Turkish control.

    Italy had long claimed that Tripoli fell within its zone of influence and that Italy had the right to preserve order within the state. Under the pretext of protecting its own citizens living in Tripoli from the Turkish Government, it declared war against Turkey on September 29, 1911, and announced its intention of annexing Tripoli. On October 1, 1911, a naval battle was fought at Prevesa, Greece, and three Turkish vessels were destroyed. By the Treaty of Lausanne, Italian sovereignty was acknowledged by Turkey, although the Caliph was permitted to exercise religious authority.

    Tripoli was controlled by Italy until 1943. After that, it was occupied by British forces until independence in 1951.


    Fifi

    Mallylee
    May 27, 2007 - 02:05 am
    Following on Tooki's illuminating comments, important personages need actual sites where they can usually be found by those seeking their help.Did nomads such as Tooki mentions have some portable symbol e.g. a spear thrust into the ground, or a bigger 'yurt' so that the lead warrior could be identified?

    I wonder what the followers of Osama bin Laden call Osama's cave ;it must be an important place.

    The Ark of the Covenant was the portable Place of Jahweh , a warrior god, while the ancient Jews were nomadic.The warlike leaders such as Moses and David(was David nomadic? I cannot remember) had an especial affinity with the warrior god, of course,

    Later the ancient Jews got a fixed temple for Jahweh, at which time they settled and became more agrarian, I suppose, growing cereal crops, (but perhaps still herding cattle on open ranges).

    tooki
    May 27, 2007 - 05:45 am
    important movable spaces. During the summers of 1954, 55, and 56 my husband was deployed to Tripoli. He was in the United States Air Force and stationed in Germany where his squadron’s main duty was patrolling the iron curtain with fighter interceptors.

    The squadron moved to Tripoli in those summers to practice gunnery over the Mediterranean There was a United States Air force Base there: Wheelus, where the squadron lived in tents, fried eggs on the wings of the planes, and visited the extensive Roman ruins in and about Tripoli.

    The town and its culture were heavily Italian with mostly Italian folks, goods, and Italian spoken. There was an “old town” composed of North African Arab types, but Air Force personal were encouraged not to go there since, although it wasn’t dangerous, it was “dirty.” There were many one eyed Arab men because, as the Air Force folks were told during orientation, it was customary to put out a male child’s eye so that he couldn’t be recruited for war, the Arabs having been in so many over the centuries.

    And, finally, the refugee camp in “Tripoli” that the Lebanonese Army is currently skirmishing with is a different “Tripoli.”

    Bubble
    May 27, 2007 - 05:54 am
    Today Tripoli is the capital of Lybia and, you are right Tooki, a sea port in Lebanon as well.

    I remember in the 50s, the Lybian Tripoli was a mandatory stop for refuelling planes (DC5 and DC7, then Constellations) flying from Africa to Europe. It was a gloomy place hot and dusty.

    Malryn
    May 27, 2007 - 05:55 am

    Back to the book
    III PAVIA

    Malryn
    May 27, 2007 - 06:07 am

    Between Genoa and Milan the ancient city of Pavia lay quietly along the Ticino. Once itt had been the sea of the Lombard kings. Now, in the fourteenth century, it was subject to Milan, and was used by the Visconti and the Sforzas as a second capital.

    There, Galeazzo Visconti II began (1360) and Gian Galeazzo Visconti commpleted the majestic Castello that served as a ducal residence for its second founder, and as a pleasure palace for the dukes of Milan. Petrarch called it "the noblest product of modern art," and many contemporaries ranked it first among the royal dwellings of Europe.

    The library contained one of the most precious collections of books in Europe, including 951 illuminated manuscripts. Louis XII, having taken Milan in 1499, carried off the Pavia library among his spoils, and a French army destroyed the interior of the castle with the latest artillery (1517).

    Nothing remains except the walls.

    Malryn
    May 27, 2007 - 06:10 am

    PAVIA PICTURES

    Justin
    May 27, 2007 - 10:34 pm
    Pavian churches are almost entirely Romanesque in style. A few have been captioned "Gothic" but that term is inappropriate for these buildings. All are characterized by well rounded arches, and horizontality in design. Buildings look heavy and very drab. Pavia is not a light and airy place. The streets are enclosed by and overpowered by the architecture. The Piaza in Pavia is small and contains little of artistic value. If you like Pavia, I can get it for you wholesale.

    Malryn
    May 29, 2007 - 05:36 am

    PAVIA CONTINUED:

    Though the Castello is ruined, the finest jewel of the Visconti and the Sforzas survives intact -- the Certosa, or Carthusian monastery, hidden off the highway between Pavia and Milan. Here, in a placid plain, Giangaleazzo Visconti undertook to build cells, cloisters and a church in fulfilment of a vow made by his wife.

    From that beginning until 1499 the dukes of Milan continued to develop and embellish the edifice as the favorite embodiment of their piety and their art. There is nothing more exquisite in italy.

    The Lombard-Romanesque facade of white Carrera marble was designed, carved and erected (1473f)by Cristoforo Mantegazza and Giovanni Antonio Amadeo of Pavia sponsored b y Galeazzi Maria Sforza and Ludovico di Moro. It is too ornate, too fondly gifted with arches, statues, reliefs, medallions, pilasters, capitals, arabesques, carved angels, saints, sirens, princes, fruits and flowers to convey a sense of unity and harmony. Each part importunes attention regardless of the whole. But each part is a labor of love and skill. The four Renaissance windows by Amadeo would of themselves entitle him to the remembrance of mankind.

    In some Italian churches the facade is a brave front on an otherwise undistinguished exterior; but in this Certosa di Pavia every external feature and aspect is arrestingly beautiful: the stately attached buttresses, the noble towers, arcades, and spires of the north transept and the apse, the graceful columns and arches of the cloisters.

    Within the court the eye rises from these slender columns thtough three successive stories of arcades to the four superimposed colonnades of the cupola. This is an ensemble harmoniously conceived and admirably wrought.

    Within the church everything is of unsurpassed excellence; columns rising in clusters and Gothic arches to carved and coffered caults; bronze and iron grilles as delicately designed as royal lace; doors and archways of elegant form and ornament; altars of marble studded with precious stones, paintings by Perugino, Borgognone, and Luini, the magnificent inlaid choir stalls, the luminous stained glass, the careful carving of pilllars, spandrels, archivolts and cornices, the stately tomb of Giangaleazzo Visconti by Cristoforo Romano and Benedetto Brioso, and, as the last relic of pathetic romance, the tomb and figures of Lodovico il Moro and Beatrice d'Este, here united in exquisite marb le, though they died ten years and five hundred miles apart.

    In a like union of diverse moods the Lombard, Gothic and Renaissance styles are here wedded in he most nearly perfect architectural product of the Renaissance.

    For under lodovico the Moore, Milan had gathered fair women to create and unrivaled court, and supreme artists like Bramante, Leonardo, and Caradosso, to snatch the leaderhsip of Italy, for one bright decade, from Florence, Venice and Rome.

    Malryn
    May 29, 2007 - 05:40 am

    CERTOSA DI PAVIA - GALLERIA. Click thumbnail for larger picture

    Justin
    May 29, 2007 - 12:55 pm
    The Certosa di Pavia is a Carthusian Monastery. It is eclectic in design.The heavy elements of the Romanesque blend with the horizontality of the Renaissance,the elaboration of the Baroque, and the rising symbolism of the Gothic.

    When viewed as a whole, ie: in totality, one sees a hodge podge of beautiful single components. I have never felt comfortable with the blending of styles as it appears in this work. It was completed at the start of the Cinquecento- a period when art was in transition from simpler forms to mannerist forms. Leonardo was experimental as were others in the period.Bramante did the facade in mixed styles.

    When viewed as individual pieces one may see many truly beautiful works of art. The Baroque Madonna in open mandorla, the Byzantine quality of the arcades in the cloister,the capitals, the relief carving at the altar, are all fine examples of the skills of artists at the end of the Renaissance.

    If you are going to Italy and find yourself in Pavia, do not fail to visit the Certosa.

    3kings
    May 29, 2007 - 10:50 pm
    Well, there you go. One man's ART is another's HORROR. And long may it remain so..... ++ Trevor

    Justin
    May 29, 2007 - 11:06 pm
    Art is just an expression of what we are as a society at any moment in time. Why do you struggle against it, Trevor?

    tooki
    May 30, 2007 - 09:04 pm
    “The House of Visconti was an Italian noble family of the High and Late Middle Ages. Their origins are found in the Republic of Pisa in the mid twelfth century. They achieved prominence first in Pisa, then in Sardinia, where they became rulers of Gallura, and finally in Milan, where they made their most permanent mark.” (Wikipeda) There is extensive material on the net about this fancy family. Here are portraits of two of them:

    Bianca Maria Visconti

    Gian Visconti

    Which brings up a more interesting question than their hodge podge architecture, supposedly reflecting their piety. There seems to be a preference in Renaissance painted portraiture for profiles. A painted profile is symmetrical in that the head is in the middle of the canvas, and seems to me to be static and rigid. It is neither realistic, nor exciting. Maybe that’s the point for fancy folks. Is there a preference? If so, why?

    Justin
    May 31, 2007 - 12:02 am
    Tooki: As we move through the Mannerist period at the end of the Renaissance we will advance to the Barogue which you may find excessive but in sculpture and in portraiture it is a move toward reality and away from the ideal forms of the late Renaissance. You know how these things work. One guy does a profile and is successful so every body does a profile. We see it in nail shops today. They are ubiquitous.

    Mallylee
    May 31, 2007 - 02:03 am
    Justin#748, then, are there any permanent aesthetic values, perhaps after the style of Jungian archetypes? Values that transcend times and consciousnesses? The Golden section maybe ? Balance in the form of it ?

    Justin
    May 31, 2007 - 02:14 pm
    Mally; I think of art as fluctuating between the ideal forms of classical Greece and the extreme reality of the late Impressionists. Each iteration taking it's particlar character from the social composition of its time period.

    3kings
    May 31, 2007 - 06:20 pm
    Justin True, I have little interest in art, as you suggest, though my eye is sometimes attracted by pattern, and the pleasure I find in symmetry.

    What I was referring to in my earlier post was the great diversity to be found among art critics, and I was endeavoring to say it was this that I applaud. Clearly there are no absolutes in art, but only opinion.

    But in science, especially mathematics, there are absolutes, and it is the discovery of these by the great minds of the human race that fascinates me. ++ Trevor

    tooki
    May 31, 2007 - 08:41 pm
    The Columbus Museum of Art, which I assume is in Columbus, Ohio, recently had an exhibit of portraits by artist Kehinde Wiley.

    “Wiley has gained recent acclaim for his heroic portraits which address the image and status of young African-American men in contemporary culture. In this exhibition organized by the Columbus Museum of Art, Wiley will create a new cycle of paintings based on Old Master works from the Museum's permanent collection. Models discovered by the artist on the streets of Columbus dress in contemporary urban fashion as they mimic poses from these historic works. The sacred and secular themes of the Renaissance and Baroque references give new meaning to embedded codes of gesture and dress, past and present, while provoking a reconsideration of lingering stereotypes about masculinity, race and class in our society today. A video of the artist's process of creating this unique project for Columbus will accompany the exhibition to be installed in a recreation of an opulent Baroque salon. (Columbus Art Museum)

    Portrait of a Venetian Ambassador, Aged 59

    tooki
    May 31, 2007 - 08:45 pm
    Portrait of Andries Stilte

    Justin
    May 31, 2007 - 10:31 pm
    Tooki: Andries Stilte is posing as Louis Quatorze from Rigaud's portrait. I'll have to look again at the first one.

    Mallylee
    June 1, 2007 - 12:15 am
    Tooki the Portrait of Andries Stilte : I quote 'manners maketh man' . Actors too, well know how to convey tone and mood by their bodily movements. What I wonder is , which bodily movements and poses are inherently genetic in the entire human species , and which are ephemerally cultural.

    It's easy to guess that the haughtiness in the pose of a king can quite easily be transferred to a commoner, Although communication by pose may have changed with changing culture in some respects, it can remain the same in others. The pose seems to me to be OTT, as well as haughty, but I think most people would also recognise it as haughty,or somesuch.

    Do studies of communication among apes show whether or not poses are apes' culture or apes' genetic inheritance?

    tooki
    June 1, 2007 - 05:25 am
    Justin, you clever dude, you. Your street cred lives! I wonder how these folks expect to enlarge the audience’s perception of the irony inherent in all socially structured postures when THEY CAN’T EVEN GET THE TITLES STRAIGHT!

    (I rechecked the site; I got it right.)

    Will The Real King Please Stand Up?

    Mally, I appreciate your observations, and I’ll probably hate myself for this question. But, what is OTT?

    tooki
    June 1, 2007 - 05:58 am
    Just One More Wiley

    This is the last one, I promise. Wiley’s own posturing, his facility with oils, and the PCness of his subject that makes honest, fresh commentary impossible (are you listening, Trevor?) intrigue me.

    This one is called St. Sebastian. http://www.columbusmuseum.org/media/kehinde/img/Wiley%20-%20St.%20Sebastian%20II.jpg”>

    Malryn
    June 1, 2007 - 07:06 am

    THE VISCONTI 1378-1447

    Malryn
    June 1, 2007 - 07:37 am

    Let's try not to get too far afield from the topic at hand, folks. Today we start discussing the Visconti.
    Galeazzo II, dying in 1378, bequeathed his share of the Milanese realm to his son Giangaleazzo Visconti, who continued to see Pavia as a capital. Here was a man who would have warmed Machiavelli's heart. Immersed in the great library of the palace, taking care of a delicate constitution, winning his subjects by moderate taxation, attending church with impressive piety, filling his court with priests and monks, he was the last prince in Italy whom diplomats would have suspected of planning to unite the entire peninsula.

    Yet this was the ambition that had settled in his brain. He pursued it to the end of his life, and almost realized it. In its service he used craft, treachery, and murder as if he had studied the unwritten Prince with reverence and had never heard of Christ.

    Meanwhile his uncle Bernabo was ruling the other half of the Visconti realm frofm Milan. Bernabo was a candid villain. He taxed his subjects to the edge of endurance; compelled the peasantry to keep and fee the five thousand hounds that he used in the chase, and smiled resentment b y announcing that criminals would be tortured for forty days.

    He laughed at Giangaleazzo'd piety, and schemed how to dispose of him and make himself master of all the Visconti heritage.

    Gian, equipped with the spies necessary to any competent government, learned of these plans. He arranged a meeting with Bernbos, who came conveniently with two sons. Gian's secret guard arrested all three, and apparently poisoned Bernabo (1385).

    Gian now ruled Milan, Novara, Pavia, Piacenza, Cremona and Brescia. In 1387 he took Verona, in 1389 Padua. In 1399 he shocked Florence by bu;uying Pisa for 200,000 florins. In 1400 Perugia, Assisi and Siena, in 1401 Lucca and Bologna submitted to his generals, and Gian was master of nearly all north Italy froom Novara to the Adriatic.

    The Papal States were now weakened by the Schism (1378-1417) that had followed the return of the papacy from Aragon. Gian played pope and dreamed of absorbing all the lands of the Churhc. Then he would send his armies against Naples. His control of Pisa and other outlets would force Florence into submission. Venice alone would remain u nbound, but helpless against a united Italy.

    However, in 1403 Giangaleazzo, aged fifty-one, died.

    Adrbri
    June 1, 2007 - 11:39 am
    Over The Top
    Output Threshold Test
    Off The Truck

    Take your pick (TYP) Brian

    Justin
    June 1, 2007 - 11:05 pm
    Trevor: In art there are rules of classification, just as there are in science. There are poles of expression in art and the process of placement between the poles is judgemental. Are the poles absolute? No,I don't think so but they are close.

    Science on the other hand has few absolutes as well. Probability measures serve to specify degrees of uncertainty. Tomorrow relativity may give way to a better theory. Evolution may prove unsatisfactory.

    Mathematics may give one comfort in that once the conditions are set one can rely on two plus two equaling four.

    Mallylee
    June 2, 2007 - 01:17 am
    #763 Justin, 'there are poles of expression in art';

    .Your comparison of art on the one hand, with science and maths on the other is interesting. As I understand your message,science has degree of probability as evaluation of 'true' fact or dodgy fact. , and maths have true or false as criteria. What does art have? Are art's poles of expression , expressions of relative truth-beauty (either about the world or about the nature of art itself). I think they are .

    Modern science is largely based on scepticism,which leads to falsifiability, so any evidence is always viewed with scepticism. Sceptic attitude points the way ahead, i.e. evaluate with most possible reason!

    What is the proper attitude for evaluating a work of art? : "I don't know anything about art but I know what I like" is risible. Once a person has got to know the idiom, is a sceptical attitude , as for science, also applicable to any work of art? E.g." how true is this work of art?"

    If one sceptically applies the idea of truth to any work of art a criterion for a good sculpture or building could be whether or not it was true to its historical culture, or true to physical rules of balance. Was Keats right that beauty is truth ? I think so.

    Adrbri
    June 2, 2007 - 10:47 am
    "I don't know anything about Art, but I know what I like" is risable
    I was still smiling when I got to the end of this article : -

    http://blogcritics.org/archives/2006/01/10/180740.php

    We seem to be getting bogged down in semantics.

    Brian

    Justin
    June 2, 2007 - 01:57 pm
    John Ruskin is the art guru devoted to truth and beauty. I have never been very comfortable with either concept applied to art.I find Ruskin's work very difficult to grasp. His message is elusive in spite of his volubility. Art is a tangible commodity. It can be compared to given standards and it can be appreciated for it's intrinsic qualities as well as it's message but beauty is not in my tool kit.

    Justin
    June 2, 2007 - 02:21 pm
    Mally: The two poles I have in mind are idealism and realism. When looking at art I am interested in it's date of compostion and the historical setting at the time and the movement of which it is a part. I am interested in the elements of the work ie; the components that make it what it purports to be. I am interested in fixing it's relation to the poles I spoke about. If skepicism is the right attitude for science, then analytical is an acceptable attitude for art.

    Malryn
    June 2, 2007 - 02:23 pm

    Are there any comments about Durant's quote in Post #761?

    Justin
    June 2, 2007 - 02:41 pm
    Italy has been, traditionally, a land of small,disparate, pricipalites each governed by a tyrant of sorts. Few have been benevolent. Most have been self seeking,dictators hoping to expand their areas of influence. The land below Naples including Sicily has belonged to eastern Mediteranean powers for much of it's history but the land above Naples has been divided into small pricipalities for many centuries. No one had been able, before the Visconti, to pull these principalites together. Gian Galeazo was successful in doing so and had he not died in his fifties he might have gained all but the Papal States. Unification for Italy did not come until the late nineteenth or early twentieth century.

    tooki
    June 2, 2007 - 03:25 pm
    Apparently the Viscontis are alive and well, living in the United States. It is an interesting idea to think of actually knowing a descendent of Giam.

    Visconti Family Genealogy

    Fifi le Beau
    June 2, 2007 - 07:29 pm
    Our very survival depends not on our judgement of the arts, but on our judgement of other human beings who have power over our lives.

    Like the link that Brian gave on 'beauty', I wrote one on how people of every persuasion select leaders. A simple question of who they support as candidates and the question why?...... lead to some mind boggling answers.

    So is it any wonder that a man like Gian Visconti could rise to power. After all he showed piety and surrounded himself with monks and priests. His ambition though was to treachery and murder. That was how kings and leaders were made, up until that time and many centuries to come. The cold blooded killer became king.

    His Uncle Bernabo did not try to hide his treachery and murderous tendencies. His approval of torture showed him to be a psychopath. At least one knows who they are dealing with in those circumstances, but with a man like Gian, it requires more than 'he seems like a nice guy'. It was probably not possible to know Gian's true nature in fourteenth century Italy, but today there would be no excuse.

    Bernabo definitely needed taking down, but by law, and kept imprisoned with his 30,000 hounds to feed and care for as long as he lived.

    Bernabo was openly dangerous to the public, but Gian, had he lived, would perhaps have been even more so, for every man who conquered a country never stopped at his own borders.

    Power corrupts, but absolute power corrupts absolutely.

    Fifi

    Malryn
    June 3, 2007 - 06:10 am

    To continue about Giangaleazzo's accomplishments:-

    All this time he had hardly moved from Pavia or Milan. He liked intrigue better than war, and achieved by subtlety more than his generals won for him by arms. Nor could political enterprises exhaust the fertility of his mind.

    He issued a code of laws including the regulation of public health and the compulsoy isolation of infectioius disease.

    He built the Castello of Pavia, and began the Certosa di Pavia and the cathedral of Milan.

    He called Manual Chrysolras to the chair of Greek in the University of Milan, fostered the University of Pavia, helped poets, artists, scholars and philosophers and relished their company.

    He extended the Naviglio Grande, or Great Canal, from Milan to Paiva, thereby opening an inland waterway across the breadth of Italy from the Alps through Milan and the Po to the Adriatic Sea, and providing irrigation for thousands of acres of soil.

    The agriculture and commerce so promoted encouraged industry. Milan began to rival Florence in woolen goods. Her smiths made weapoons and armor for warriors throughout western Europe . In one crisis two master armorers forged arms for six thousand soldiers in a few days.

    In 1314 the silk weavers of Lucca, impoverished by faction and war, had migrated by hundreds to Milan. By 1400 the silk industry was well developed there, and moralists complained that clothing had become shamefully beautiful.

    Giangaleazzo protected the flourishing economy with wise administration, equable justice and reliable currency, and a tolerable taxation that extended to clergy and nobility as well as laymen and commoners.

    Under his prodding the postal service was expanded. In 1425 over a hundred horses were regularly employed by the post. Private correspondence was accepted at post offices, and traveled all day -- in emergency, alll night as well.

    In 1413 Florence had an annual state revunue of 4,000,000 gold florins ($100,000,000), Venice 11,000,000, Milan 11,000,000.

    Kings were glad to have their sons and daughters marry into the Visconti family. Emperor Wenceslas merely crowned fact with form when in 1395 he gave imperial sanction and legitimacy to Gian's title of duke, and invested him and his heirs with the duchy of Milan "forever."

    Justin
    June 3, 2007 - 02:31 pm
    For Gian "forever" was a short forevr. He dies at 52 and the consolidated Northern Italy splits apart again into little principalities.

    Isn't it intersting that Florence with its wool industry produces only 4 million in state revenue while Venice and Milan, each, produce 3 times as much. My expectation was for a stronger showing by Florence. Venice of course,had all the seas at its disposal and Milan had the Visconti so one should expect those cities to be dominant but not 3 times. Milan never actually caught up with Florence in wool. But the city's armorers exceeded themselves in supplying arms to the warriors.

    Adrbri
    June 4, 2007 - 12:50 pm


    http://faculty.cua.edu/Pennington/BaldusPerugia/BaldusGiangaleazzoRights.htm

    Brian

    3kings
    June 4, 2007 - 07:23 pm
    A postal service employing a hundred horse men, delivering citizen's mail as well as State documents, both day and night !

    Clearly Milan was much more socially advanced than its sister cities.

    I wonder how they determined the level of taxes ? Presumably taxes were collected in cash, rather than taken in goods and services. Would the average Joe Blow have the coinage necessary to pay ?

    Her ( Milan's)smiths made weapons and armor for warriors throughout western Europe . In one crisis two master armorers forged arms for six thousand soldiers in a few days.

    Surely the above is an exaggeration? Two Armourers employing say 20-40 workers arming six thousand soldiers in a few days ?

    Perhaps they had an early time Henry Ford in charge of the shop floor. ++ Trevor

    Fifi le Beau
    June 4, 2007 - 08:05 pm
    One man's tyrant is another man's freedom fighter.

    One man's benevolent leader is another man's oppressor.

    One man's great military leader is another man's war criminal.

    War is terrorism with a bigger budget.

    These thoughts came to mind thinking of Fifteenth century Italy, while living in the Twenty First century. Five hundred years separate us, but the tactics remain the same.

    Fifi

    Malryn
    June 5, 2007 - 07:22 am

    Visconti continued.

    This proved to be fifty-two years. Gian's older son, Gianmaria Visconti was thirteen when his father died. (1402) The generals who led Gian's victorious armies competed for the regency. While they fought for Milan, Italy resumed her fragmentation. Florence recaptured Pisa; Venice took Verona, Vicenza and Padua. Siena, Perugia and Bologna submitted to invidual despots. Italy was as bafore, and worse.

    Gianmaria, leaving the government to oppressive regents, devoted himself to his dogs, trained them to eat human flesh, and joyfully watched them feed on the live men whom he had condemned as political offenders or social criminals. In 1412 three nobles stabbed him to death.

    His brother Filippo Maria Visconti seemed to have inherited the subtle intelligence, the patient industry, the ambitious and farseeing poicies of his father. But what had been sedentary courage to Giangaleazzzo became in Filippo sedentary timidity, a perpetual fear of assassination, a haunting belief in human perfidy.

    He shut himself up in the castle of Porta at Milan, ate and grew fat, cherished superstitions and astrologers. Yet by pure craft he remianed to the end of his long reign the absolute master of the country.

    He married Beatrice Terida for hermoney, and condemned her to death for infidelity. He married Maria of Savoy, kept her secluded from all but her ladies in waiting, brooded over his lack of a son. He took a mistress and became partly human in his affection for the pretty daughter Bianca who was born of this liaison.

    He continued his father's patronage of learning, called noted scholars to the University of Padua, and gave commissions to Brunellesco and the incomparable medalist Pisanello.

    He ruled Milan with efficient autocracy, suppressing faction, maintaining order, protecting peasants against feudal eactions, and merchants against brigandage.

    By deft diplomacy and adroit manipulation of his armis he restored to Milanese allegiance Parma and Piacenza, all of Lombardy to Brescia, all the lands between Milan and the Alps. In 1421 he persuaded the Genoese that his dictatorship was milder thann their civil wars. He encouraged marriages between rival families, so ending many feuds.

    For a hundred petty tyrannies he set up on, and the population, shorn of liberty but free from internal strife, grumbled, propered and multiplied.

    He had a flair for dingin able generals; suspected them all of wishing to replace him, played them off against one another and kept war brewing in the hope of regaining all that his father had won and his brother had lost.

    A breed of powerful condottieri developed in his wars with Venice and Florence: Giattamelata, Colleoni, Camagnola, Braccio, Forrebraccio, Montone, Piccinino, Muzio Attendolo.

    Muzzio was a country lad, one of a large family of male and female fighters. He won he cognomen Sforza by the strength of body and will with which he served Queen Joanna Ii of Naples. He lost her favor and was thrown into prison. His sister, in full armor, forced his jailers to set him free. He was given command of one of the Milanese armies, but was drowned soon afterward while crossing a stream.

    His bastard son, then twenty-two, leaped into his father's place and fought and married his way to a throne.

    Justin
    June 5, 2007 - 06:33 pm
    Beatrice di Tenda became the title character of an opera by Verdi because her story has all the ingredients of classic Grand Opera. The duke marries her for her money then, because he has the hots for another lady and cannot get a male heir from Beatrice, arranges her death. It's wonderful stuff. It's the stuff of Grand opera. Beatrice took a full scene to die. It's wonderful. But it must have been hard on the lady in real life. In the language of today, the guy who did the deed was, in my judgement, a real creep.

    Mallylee
    June 5, 2007 - 11:35 pm
    Was Philippo maybe the original for Browning's 'My Last Duchess'?

    Malryn
    June 6, 2007 - 03:10 pm

    THE SFORZAS 1450-1500

    Malryn
    June 6, 2007 - 03:33 pm

    Francesco Sforza was the ideal of Renaissance soldiers: tall, handsome, athletic, brave, the best runner, jumper, wrestler in his army; sleeping little, marching bareheaded winter and summer; winning the devotion of his men by sharing their hardships and rations, and leading them to lucrative victories by strategy and tactics rather than by superior numbers or arms.

    So unrivaled was his reputation that enemy forces on more than one occasion, laid down their arms at sight of him, and greeted him with uncovered heads as the greatest general of his time.

    Ambitious to found a state of his own, he allowed no scruple to hinder his policy. He fought alternately for Milan, Florence and Venice until Filippo won his loyalty by giving him Bianca in marriage, with Cremona and Pontremoli as her dowry. (1441) When, six years later Filippo died heirless, bringing the Visconti dynasty to an end, Francesco felt that the dowry whould include Milan.

    The Milanese thought differently. They proclaimed a republic names Ambrosian from the masterful b ishop who had chastened Theodosius and converted Augustine a thousand years before.

    But the rival factions in the city could not agree. The dependencies of Milan snatched the opportunity to declare themselves tree. Some of them fell before Venetian arms; danger was imminent of a Venetian or Florentine attack. Moreover, the Duke of Orleans, the Emperor Frederick III and King Alfonso of Aragon all claimed Milan as their own.

    In this crisis a deputation sought Sforza, gave him Brescia, and begged him to defend Milan. He fought off its enemies with resourceful energy, but when the new government made peace with Venice without consulting him, he turned his troops against the republic, besieged Milan to the edge of starvation, accepted its surrender, entered the city amid the acclamation of a hungry populace and dulled the lust for liberty by distributing bread.

    A general assembly was summoned, comprised of one man from each household. It invested him with the ducal authority over the protests of the Emperor, and the Sforza dynasty began its brief and brilliant career. (1450)

    tooki
    June 6, 2007 - 08:39 pm
    is a castle in Milan, Italy that now houses an art gallery. The original construction on the site began in the 14th century. In 1450, Francesco Sforza began reconstruction of the castle, and it was further modified by later generations. It currently houses an art collection which includes Michelangelo's last sculpture, the Rondanini Pietà, and Leonardo da Vinci's Codex Trivulzianus manuscript. (from Wikipedia)

    Here is one of many sites.

    Justin
    June 6, 2007 - 09:29 pm
    Thank you, Tooki,for a good college try. There is a lot of good stuff in the Castello but one would never know it from the pictures in the round. Th photog cuts off the tops of things, shows much empty room and very little object, is too distant from paintings to distinguish one from another and gives a distant quarter second with the Pieta in range. Phooey>

    tooki
    June 7, 2007 - 04:38 am
    Well, OK, then. Try this one. If it's inadequate, at least you can practice your Italian. Other castles are linked at the bottom of the page. I think the folks that did the moving pictures were enamored of their technology. We'll just keep trying until we get it right because the Castle Sforzesco seems to be one of the wonders of Milan

    tooki
    June 7, 2007 - 10:28 am
    My futile quest for the perfect pictures of these so called architectural wonders in Italy, built, begun or restored during the Renaissance and containing wonders of the world of art, made me curious about their social significance.

    These castles were built to represent the power, prestige, and position of their “owners,” symbolically representing and commerating the assumption of power of an individual or family.

    The building of these castles is subordinate to the violence that made it possible for them to be built. As we progress, if you can call it that, through violent Italy, observing the rise and fall of Tom, Dick and Harry and the continual regrouping of alliances, we’re seeing the outcome of this violence, of battles fought, lives lost, and atrocities committed. The result of these endless struggles for power is that the outcome – the building of another castle – becomes more importance than the experiences of those involved in the violence. The actual lives and experiences of those involved in the fighting is of marginal relevance, or really, no relevance, to Durant’s pictures of the ebb and flow of power.

    Perhaps this can’t be helped because there is so much happening; killing and maiming aren't important. But I think we shouldn’t lose sight of the social significance of these castles, what they represent in human lives. The echoing halls in them are, for me, filled with cries of despair, death, and horror. Not art work.

    P.S. Yesterday, Wednesday, June 7, was D-Day, the beginning of the Allied invasion of Europe in 1944. It was hardly noticed, although the 6-day war received due attention.

    Bubble
    June 7, 2007 - 11:35 am
    apparently the observance of D-Day depended on where you live. It certainly was well remembered in Belgium: many programs on radio and TV showed,talked and elaborated on that. I believe it would be the same in Holland and France.

    Justin
    June 7, 2007 - 02:07 pm
    Bubble: Very little notice was taken of the event in the US. It was mentioned on the 6 o'clock news with a modern view of Omaha Beach and a view of the cemetery. Our memories are so short. I was thinking of the British experience in Irag in the 1920's when a Shiite insurgency resulted from the interference of that governmment. Since our guy doesn't read he had no chance to learn about the prior experience before launching his own Shiite Insurgency.

    Justin
    June 7, 2007 - 02:11 pm
    Tooki: The aerial shots of the Castello are excellent and the Pieta is visible. Thank you.

    Malryn
    June 8, 2007 - 07:28 am

    CONTINUING WITH DURANT

    His (Sforza's) elevation did not change his character. He continued to live simply and to work hard. Now and then he was cruel or treacherous, alleging the good of the state as his excuse. Generally, he was a man of justice and humanity.

    He suffered a lawless sensitivity to the beautfy of women. His accomplished wife killed his mistress, and then forgave him. She bore him eight children,, advised him wisely in politics, and won the people to his rule by succoring the needy and protecting the oppressed.

    His administration of the state was as competent as the leadership of its armies. The social order that he enforced brought back to the city a properity thhat dimmed the memory of its suffering and its fitful liberty. As a citadel against revolt he began to build the enormous Castello Sforzesco.

    He cut new canals through the land, organized public works, and built the Ospedale Maggiore. He brought the humanist Filelfo to Milan, and encouraged education, scholarship and art. he lured Vincenzo Foppa to Milan to develop a school of painting.

    Threatened by the intrigue of Vennice, Naples and France, he held them all at bay by winning the decisive support and firm friendship of Cosimo de' Medici. He disarmed Naples by wedding his daughter Ippolita to Ferdinand's son Alfonso. fHe checkmated the Duke of Orleans by signing an alliance with Louis XI of France.

    Some nobles continued to seek his death and his power, but the success of his government disordered their plans, and he lived to die, in peace, the tradiitonal death of generals. (1466)

    Justin
    June 8, 2007 - 12:23 pm
    The tradition is that generals die in bed never on the battlefield. I wonder how that compares with reality. Mac Arthur was wounded a few times while a Brigadier. The leading Japanese admiral was killed during the war while flying from Rabaul to the home islands. It may depend on which side wins. Vercigetorix died upon Ceasar's command.

    3kings
    June 8, 2007 - 09:38 pm
    According to Mac Arthur "Old soldiers never die, they simply fade away." And that's what he did, after Trueman(sp?) dumped him for insubordination. += Trevor

    Fifi le Beau
    June 9, 2007 - 11:58 am
    While it may be a tradition that Generals die in bed and not on the battlefield, that does not hold true for civil wars in general and ours in particular.

    Living in an area where skirmishes, clashes, captures, and battles both large and small took place, history is everywhere. I took my children along and gave them lessons on the events that occurred there.

    A friend whose home we visited often has six Yankees buried in the side yard. They were a small scouting party that wandered into hostile territory and were killed or captured. It could hardly be called a skirmish. Over the years someone had put a wrought iron fence around it, and locals put small American flags on the graves on Decoration Day.

    The battle of Franklin saw six Confederate generals killed and five wounded. The Confederate General John Bell Hood had to be strapped to his horse due to the loss of a leg and the use of one arm in previous battles. The opposing Union general was his former roommate at West Point. The battle was ferocious and hand to hand in a small area. They fought into the night and when dawn broke there were six dead Confederate generals laid out on the portico of Carter house and the Carnton mansion.

    Of the one hundred Confederate regimental commanders sixty three were killed or wounded in this one battle. They fought on toward Nashville led by a Colonel and Captain where they were defeated but retreated to fight another day.

    Civil wars fought between neighbors and fellow countrymen seem to be an exception to the rule of generals at a distance giving orders. This seemed to be true especially for the South who were generally outnumbered and were fighting mostly on their own territory. They were also fighting men they knew, since many of them had graduated from West Point with their rival commanders.

    Generals, presidents, prime ministers, secretary of education, minister of electricity, etc. are all prime targets in civil war. It follows the Japanese proverb, "The nail that sticks up gets hammered down".

    Fifi

    robert b. iadeluca
    June 9, 2007 - 04:14 pm
    Hi! Remember me? I'm the guy with the tendonitis/arthritis who suddenly found out that one didn't need a stroke or heart attack to be unable to type. It also affected my eating. I had to eat for a while with my left hand and when steering my car, the left hand took most of the work. But I am now at the point where I will gradually get back into a discussion which has been so ably steered by Mal. But it will be gradual. I will lean on you, Mal, and throw in more and more postings as I go along. Bless you, Mal, for keeping this important discussion alive!!!

    Please don't back off, Mal. Continue to post Durant's words as you have been doing and I will post his words from time to time. I'm sure that our teamwork will work out well. And of course, I will lean on you, as I have always done, for those marvelous links!

    Robby

    Fifi le Beau
    June 9, 2007 - 04:57 pm
    Robby, how good to see you posting again and know that you are improved.

    I had just come back here to thank Mal for keeping the SOC going in your absence, and there you were.

    Thank you Mal.

    Welcome back Robby.

    Fifi

    Justin
    June 9, 2007 - 05:42 pm
    It is comforting to see you posting again, Robby. Do not rush things. We miss you but we can wait till you are truly well. Mal has been doing a very competent job in spite of her own aches and pains. The effects of age can be a nuisance.

    GingerWright
    June 9, 2007 - 05:43 pm
    Welcome home Robby, It is so good to know you are doing better.

    Mallylee
    June 10, 2007 - 01:20 am
    I am glad you are getting better Robby

    tooki
    June 10, 2007 - 06:55 am
    the “ideal of Renaissance soldiers,” was also a member of “a breed of powerful condottieri,” Durant tells us.

    Condottieri were Generals, or Captains, of mercenary armies during the wars of Italy of the 14th to 16th centuries. These condottieri, translated as "contractors," served a particular lord or city. They were used because Commune militias were inefficient and merchants were reluctant to do military service. They were mostly German or Hungarian. Machiavelli despised mercs as “useless and dangerous… disunited, ambitious…,” and so on. The United States currently uses the services of many kinds of “contractors” in Iraq.

    This being the Renaissance one would think the Generals would harken back to Greco-Roman techniques of warfare. (For example, all male citizens of Greece and Republican Rome were obligated to do military service. It was a duty associated with freedom.) But they didn’t.

    They learned the art of war as apprentices to established condottieri, not from books. A General may have been gratified to learn from one of the humanists in his entourage that his tactics resembled those of Caesar in Gaul, but it is unlikely that it was intended.

    I especially admire this thought, applicable to Durant in my view: Soldiers did not learn to fight their battles from reading books; neither did historians learn to write their books by watching battles.

    .

    robert b. iadeluca
    June 10, 2007 - 04:09 pm
    I have been lurking throughout this period of time and have been following Durant's words that Mal has posted. I know exactly where she is in the volume and have changed the GREEN quotes in the Heading to help us know where we are and where we are going.

    Robby

    bluebird24
    June 10, 2007 - 04:54 pm

    robert b. iadeluca
    June 10, 2007 - 05:30 pm
    But I am still relying on Mal's work faithful to this discussion.

    Robby

    Malryn
    June 11, 2007 - 07:11 am

    Born to the people, Sforza's son, Galeazzo Maria Sforza, never knew the discipline of poverty and struggle. He gave himself up to pleasure, luxury, and pomp, seduced with special religish the wives of his friends, and punished opposition with a cruelty that seemed to have descended to him, deviously and mysteriously, through the kindly Bianca from her Visconti blood.

    The people of Milan, inured to absolute rule, offered no resistance to his despotism, but private vengeance punished what other public terror brooked. Girolamo Oligiati grieved over a sister seduced and then discarded by the Duke; Giovanni Lampognani throught himself despoiled of property by the same lord. Together with Carlo Visconti they had been trained by Niccolo Montreno in Rooman history and ideals, incuding tyrannicide froom Brrutus to Brutus. After imploring the help of the saints, the three youths entered the church of St. Stephen, where Caleazzo was worshiping, and stabbed him to death. (1476)

    Lampugnani and Visconti were killed on the spot. Oligiati was tortured till almost every bone in his body was broken or torn from its socked. He was then flayed alive. To his last breath, he refused to repent. He called on pagan heroes and Christian saints to approve his deed, and died with a classic and Renaissance phrase on his lips: "Death is bitter, but fame is everlasting."

    Malryn
    June 11, 2007 - 07:15 am

    Welcome back, dear facilitator. I'm like an abacus -- you can count on me.

    I had to take the weekend off. Because of a malfunction of the motorized wheelchair last week, I was forced to push myself around in my manual one. This aggravated the tears in the rotator cuff of my right shoulder, so typing and most of everything else, was painful. My neighbor downstairs, Lisa, saved me a sixty bucks wheelchair technician fee, by fixing the chair's wonky on-off switch plate with a screwdriver and screws. So I'm back in business again.

    Recently, I've found two women who will help me, an aide the Office of Aging sends over, who thinks I'm interesting enough that she'll break some rules and do a little shopping for me, and now Lisa, who can fix anything and makes lovely decorations with beads and ribbons as well.

    I am, indeed, a fortunate woman. Truly. My son, Chris, his wife and two children, took me out for breakfast yesterday, and then for a tour through WalMart, an emporium I've been in only twice in the year and a half I've lived here in the halls of Limekiln Manor, where most of the elderly are grumpy, and the children are often noisy and always frisky and full of fun, making the elderly even grumpier than usual.

    Mal

    robert b. iadeluca
    June 11, 2007 - 04:52 pm
    Here am I, gone all this time, and now correcting a minor error in the work of our dear Mal who has been doing such a great job. Her first sentence above quoting Durant should be "born to the purple" not "born to the people." You may give me two slaps on the wrist, Mal. As I become more active, I'm sure you'll see lots of mistakes in my copies.

    Robby

    Fifi le Beau
    June 11, 2007 - 07:52 pm
    Durant writes of Oligiati as he lay dying.......

    a classic and Renaissance phrase on his lips: "Death is bitter, but fame is everlasting."

    Napeleon had a little different take on the subject. He said, "Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever."

    The church seemed to be a chosen place for assassinations as this is the second or third one we've read about recently.

    Extreme cruelty and torture were still in fashion as is evidenced by Oligaiti's death. As Mal and Robby lead us toward the 21st Century, there is a sinking feeling that the world has progressed one step forward and one step back in an endless cycle of violence.

    Fifi

    robert b. iadeluca
    June 12, 2007 - 03:31 am
    "Galeazzo left his throne to a seven-year-old-boy. Giangaleazzo Sforza.

    "For three chaotic years Guelf and Ghibelline factions competed in force and fraud to capture the regency. The victor was one of the most colorful and complex personalities in all the crowded gallery of the Renaissance.

    "Lodovico Sforza was the fourth of Francesco Sforza's sons. His father gave him the cognomen Mauro. His contemporaries jokingly transformed this into il Moro -- 'the Moor' -- because of his dark hair and eyes. He himself good-humoredly accepted the nickname and Moorish emblems and costumes became popular at his court. Other wits found in the name a synonym for the mulberry tree (in Italian, moro). This too became a symbol for him, made the mulberry color fashionable in Milan and provided a theme and motive for some of Leonardo's decorations in the Castello roooms.

    "Lodovico's chief teacher was the scholar Filelfo, who gave him a rich grounding in the classics. But his mother Bianca warned the humanist that 'we have princes to educate, not merely scholars' and she saw to it that her sons should also be skilled in the arts of government and war.

    "Lodovico was seldom pnysically brave but in him the intelligence of the Visconti freed itself from their cruelty and with all his faults and sins he became one of the most civilized men in history."

    Robby

    tooki
    June 12, 2007 - 05:22 am
    The Visconti and Sforza families were a big part of Renaissance Milanese painting. Painting their portraits must have supported a whole art colony. I am beginning to perceive that without Italian power struggles and the emergence of powerful families there would be no Renaissance art. There's a moral here, but I think it may be an unpleasant one, like power begets money which begets art.

    I Always Wondered Why She Was Important

    tooki
    June 12, 2007 - 05:29 am
    Here's the whole crew. Family dinners on Sundays must have been superb!

    Justin
    June 12, 2007 - 03:02 pm
    By the time of the cinquicento secular patrons particularly in Milano and Venezia were taking over as patrons of the arts from the Church. The Renaissance is just about over as one enters the new century.Michelangelo, Leonardo, Bellini, Titian, Tintoretto, Tiepolo, Perugino, etc. all, in the latter part of their lives contribute heavilly to the next art form called Mannerism. It brings to an end the rebirth of classical forms. It is not, until the introduction of the Baroque in the latter part of the sixteenth and early seventeenth century that art becomes once again a full expression of the times.

    Fifi le Beau
    June 12, 2007 - 07:16 pm
    The portrait of Cecilia Gallerani painted by Michelangelo and titled "Lady with ermine" has a troubled past which included over painting and inscriptions added after the painting was completed.

    Provenance was later researched to prove who the sitter was and the painter also when questions arose.

    When asked to send her portrait Cecilia remarked that it was painted when she was very young and no one would recognize her as she was now older and much changed.

    Youth is fleeting but ageing is forever.

    http://www.lairweb.org.nz/leonardo/ermine.html

    Fifi

    Justin
    June 12, 2007 - 11:22 pm
    Fifi: I realize you intended to say Leonardo rather than Michelangelo. The art world is unsure of the identity of the sitter. It is either girlfriend, or wife of Sforza or some other person entirely. We do however know that the painter is Leonardo. The painting was exhibited a year or two ago in San Francisco and it is clear in my mind. Leonardo's sfumato technigue is evident but minimal in this painting.

    winsum
    June 13, 2007 - 10:24 pm
    sfumato technigue smoky

    a nice blending of curves in the Lady with ermine.

    Claire

    Fifi le Beau
    June 14, 2007 - 08:14 pm
    Justin, you are right I did intend Leonardo but by the time I got back to my desk, I could no longer edit.

    I never saw this painting in person as you did, but I have seen a reproduction and to my untrained eye with no background on its provenance, it looked so much like the photograph of the original, I would never have known the difference.

    What do you think of painters who do reproductions of famous pieces of art that sometimes fool even the experts? Some of them are so good I have never understood why they don't create their own original art.

    On second thought there is probably more money to be made by fakery than originality, and I don't mean just painting either.

    Fifi

    Justin
    June 14, 2007 - 10:15 pm
    Fifi: On any given afternoon, the galeries of the Louvre are filled with copyists and their acoutrement. It's an ok thing to do and the tourists love the work. It's a painting one can take home much as one would a good quality print. The buyer knows the work is a copy. No one is hurt. But when copies are sold as original,that's something else.

    There have been great fakers and some are doing jail time. Duneen was a successful pedler of fake originals. His books about these sales, some to people and institutions that should have known better, are wonderful revelations.

    Bernard Berenson, an American art consultant based in Florence, early on, recognized that Americans with money would buy what he advised them to buy. He sold the Renaissance to Americans and to American museums. His imprimature was golden. After the war some of his endorsed works were questioned by other authorities. I don't recall any discovered fakes but there were some misjudgements in connoisseurship.

    robert b. iadeluca
    June 15, 2007 - 04:36 am
    "For thirteen years he governed Milan as regent for his nephew.

    "Giangaleazzo Sforza was a timid retiring spirit dreading the responsibilities of rule. He was subject to frequent illness and incapable of serious affairs -- incapacissimo, Guicciardini called him. He gave himself to amusement or idleness and gladly left the administration of the state to the uncle whom he admired with envy and trusted with doubt.

    "Lodovico resigned to him all the pomp and splendor of the ducal title and office. It was Gian who sat on the throne, received homage and lived in regal luxury. But his wife, Isabella of Aragon, resented Lodovico's retention of power, urged Gian to take the reins of office in his own hands and begged her father Alfonso, heir to the throne of Naples, to come with his army and give her the powers of an acual ruler."

    Isabella not satisifed to be just the power behind the throne?

    Robby

    Fifi le Beau
    June 16, 2007 - 07:41 pm
    For people who crave power or money and sometimes both, there is never enough. They never stop working toward the latest deal, and will do almost anything to stay in the circle of power.

    Being in the circle of power was not enough for Isabella who wanted more, she wanted not just the title but the power to rule over it all.

    Everyone I've ever talked to or read about who is wealthy always say 'it was not about the money'. I disagree. Everyone can not be king or president and to have power requires money and a lot of it. The more money, the more power.

    Why else would billionaires in their eighties still be working to acquire more. Even at the top in the billionaire business there are always others clawing their way up wanting that spot at the top of the hill.

    Fifi

    JoanK
    June 16, 2007 - 11:06 pm
    Any art lovers out there, don't miss our PBS program club discussion of Simon Schama'a PBS series on the power of art. Thosae of us who read his biography of rembrandt together know how interesting Schama can be. Van Gogh and Picasso air this Monday.

    Join the discussion at:

    VAN GOGH AND PICASSO

    Malryn
    June 17, 2007 - 08:37 am

    TO CONTINUE:

    Lodovico governed efficiently. Around his summer cottage at Vigevano he developed a vasty experimental farm and cattle-breeding station. Experiments were made there in cultivating rice, the vine, and the mulberry tree; the dairies made butter and cheese of such excellence as even Italy had not known before. The spacious stables sheltered the stallons and mares rhat bred the finest horses in Europe.

    Meanwhile, in Milan, the silk industry employed twenty thousand workers and captured many foreign markets from Florence. Ironmongers, goldsmiths, woodcarvers, enamelers, potters, mosaicists, glass painters, perfumers, embroiderers, tapestry weavers and makers of musical instruments contributed to Milanese industry, They adorned the palaces and personages of the court with ornaments and exported sufficient surplus to pay for the softer luxuries that came from the East.

    To ease the traffic of men and goods, and "give the people more light and air", Lodovico had he principal streets widened. The avenues leading to the Castillo were lined with palaces and gardens for the aristocracy, and the great cathedral , which now took its definitive form, rose as a rival focus of the city's throbbing life.

    Milan in 1491 had a population of 128,000 souls. It prospered under Lodovico as not even under Giangaleazzo Visconti, but complaints were heard that the profits of this flourishing economy went rather to strengthen the regent and glorify his court rather than raise the populace from its immemorial poverty.

    Householders groaned at the heavy taxes, and riots of protest disturbed Cremona and Lodi. Lodovico answered that he needed the money to build ew hospitals and cae for the sick, to support the universities of Pavia and Milan, to finances experiments in agricultues, breeding, and industry, and to impress with the art and lavish magnificence of his court ambassadors whose governments respected only those states that were rich and strong.

    robert b. iadeluca
    June 17, 2007 - 09:17 am
    I have emailed Mal. Sometimes she will post Durant's words and sometimes I will do it. Either way, all of us together will continue this most important discussion.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    June 19, 2007 - 04:11 am
    "Milan was not convinced but it seemed to share Lodovico's happiness when he brought to it as his bride the tenderest and most lovable of the Ferrara princesses.

    "He made no pretense that she could match the vivacious virginity of Beatrice d'Este. He was already thirty-nine and had served a number of mistresses who had given him two sons and a daughter -- the gentle Bianca whom he loved as his father had loved the passionate lady from whom she took her name.

    "Beatrice raised no difficulties about these usual preparations of the Renaissance male for monogamy. But when she reached Milan she was shocked to find her lord's latest mistress, the beautiful Cecilia Gallerani, still lodged in a Castello suite. Worse yet, Lodovico continued to visit Cecilia for two months after his marriage. He explained to the Ferrarese ambassador that he had not the heart to send away the cultured poetess who had so graciously entertained his body and soul.

    "Beatrice threatened to return to Ferrara. Lodovico yielded and persuaded Count Bergamini to marry Cecilia."

    Maybe Lodovico loved poetry.

    Robby

    Fifi le Beau
    June 20, 2007 - 11:31 am
    Two women mentioned in one post about history deserves at least a cursory note.

    Beatrice and Cecilia faced off in the age old battle of legitimate versus illegitimate. Beatrice held the upper hand as she actually married the culprit and to insure that her offspring (who would be the legitimate heirs) would get no interference from some bastard upstart, she challenged her errant husband and got Cecilia kicked out of the bedchamber.

    Beatrice was manuveuring for position and power in her own house, as any normal woman would do. She is certainly to be admired for that choice.

    Cecilia on the other hand deserves consideration because of her youth which according to one bio said she was a teenager when Lodovico brought her to the palace as a mistress. She was reported to have born him a son. Lodovico found a man to marry her, and she probably had little say in that choice either.

    Women up until that time in history have had little or no control over their fate. Men not only ruled the world, they also ruled the fate of teenagers like Cecilia.

    Men still rule the world, but in some parts of it teenage girls are no longer fated to the whims of some older man. The Saudi ambassador to the U.S. told the story of his own birth to a teenage mother who had been brought to the King and his sons attention by her own mother and offered to the royal bedchamber.

    His teenage mother soon became pregnant by one of the 'sons' and obviously pregnant was shipped back home with her mother. She gave birth and raised the former ambassador alone until he was a teenager, when he was taken to his father's mother who had her own house and some standing in the royal family. She took him and his mother in and he finally got to meet his father.

    He stated that his father changed his life, but he never married his mother or acknowledged her. She didn't even get to be a 'concubine' in the palace, and was unceremoniously shipped back to her small village after she became pregnant.

    Many women in Arabia used their daughters to get near the 'royals' and ocassionally it worked, but most of the time it did not. In reading the history of the rise of Abdul Aziz ibn bin Saud in the Twentieth century and his predilection for young girls, hundreds came but few were given status. Lowest on that scale were the slaves who were there for the duration of their lives, but had no standing. They had to 'perform' for whoever chose them.

    There is an old Arabian saying, "He promised me earrings, but he only pierced my ears."

    Cecilia could attest to that.

    Fifi

    Malryn
    June 22, 2007 - 07:36 am

    Durant: 6/22/07

    Beatrice was a girl of fourtten when she came to Lodovico. She was not especially pretty; her charm lay in he innocent gaiety with which she approached and appreciated life. She had grown up in Naples and learned ita joyous ways. She had lelt it before it could spoil her girlishness, but it had imparted to her a carefreee extravagance which now, in the lap of Lodovico's wealth, so indulged itself that Milan called her "amantissima del lusso" --- "madly in love with luxury."

    Everybody forgave her, for she diffused such innocent merriment --- "spending day and night," reports a contemporary chronicler, "in singing and dancing and all manner of delights."

    The whole court caught her spirit, and joy was unconfined. The grave Lodovico, some months after their marriage, fell in love with her, and confessed for a while that all power and wisdom were negligible things beside his new felicity.

    Under his care she added graces of mind to the lure of her youthful esprt. She learned to make Latin speeches; dizzied her head with affairs of state, and ata times serveed her lord well as an irresistible ambassadress. Her letters to her still more famous sister, Isabella d'Este, are fragrant flowers in the Machiavellian jungle of Renaissance strife.

    Malryn
    June 24, 2007 - 07:28 am

    With joyful Beatrice to lead the dance, and hard-working Lodovico to pay the bills, the court of Milan became now t he most splendid not only in Italy but in all of Europe. The Castello Sforzeco expanded to its fullest glory, with its majestic central tower, its endless maze of luxurious rooms, its inlaid floors, its stained glass windows, its embroidered cushions and Persian carpets, its tapestries telling again the legends of Troy and Rome; here a ceiling by Leonardo, there a statue by Cristoforo Solari or Cristoforo Romano, and almost everywhere some luscious relic of Greek or Roman or Italian art.

    In that resplendent setting scholars mingled with warriors, poets with philosophers, artists with generals and all with women whose natural charms were enhanced by every refinement of cosmetics, jewelry and dress.

    The men, even the soldiers, were carefuly coiffured and richly garbed. Orchestras played a combination of musical insturuments, and song filled the halls.

    While Florence trembled before Savonarola and burned the vanities of love and art, music and loos morals reigned in Lodovico's capital. Husbands connived at their wives' amours in exchange for their own excursions. Masked balls were frequent, and a thousand gay costumes covered a multitude of sins. Men and women danced and sang as if povery were not stalking the city walls, as if Frances were not planning to invade Italy, as if Naples were not plotting the ruin of Milan.

    How about some comments on these shows of extravagance right next door to poverty?

    Justin
    June 24, 2007 - 12:42 pm
    In the US today a small wealthy class is growing richer while the middle class is shrinking and poor folks are increasing in number. However,to the rest of the world the US must look as Milan did in the late quatrocento. On the door step of the wealthy,in a shrinking world,are war,famine,and genocide.

    robert b. iadeluca
    June 24, 2007 - 01:40 pm
    "Perhaps it was Beatrice who, in the fervor of maternal love, brought disaster to Lodovico and Italy.

    "In 1493 she bore him a son who was named Maximilian after his godfather, the heir apparent to the Imperial throne. Beatrice wondered what her future and the boy's would be should Lodovico die.

    "For her lord had no legal right to rule Milan. Giangalezzo Sforza, with Neapolitan aid, might at any moment depose, exile, or kill him. And if Gian should manage to have a son, the duchy would presumably descend to that son regardless of Lodovico's fate.

    "Lodovico, simpathizing with these worries, sent a secret embassy to King Maximilian, offering him his niece, Bianca Maria Sforza, in marriage. with a tempting dowry of 400,000 ducats ($5,000,000) provided that Maximilian, on becoming emperor, would confer upon Lodovico the title and powers of duke of Milan. Maximilian agreed.

    "We should add that the emperors, who had given the ducal title to the ruling Visconti, had refused to sanction its assumption by the Sforzas. Legally Milan was still subject to Imperial authority."

    I wonder if, in this Western civilization, we have any equivalent of offering marriage in return for power. Offering money? Oh, yes, we know that.

    Robby

    Justin
    June 24, 2007 - 02:41 pm
    Several Middle Eastern rulers have married western women. Jordan's ruler married an American. When the Clintons were in office the King of Jordan and his pretty American wife were frequent visitors at the White House. Rita Hayworth married one of those fellows as well. There were others.

    robert b. iadeluca
    June 25, 2007 - 04:11 am
    Justin:-In these cases were the parents of those women "offering" their daughters in return for power? And, if so, what was the power they received?

    Robby

    Justin
    June 25, 2007 - 02:16 pm
    No, I don't think the parents benefited a great deal.Grace Kelly's parents may have gained a little from the connection. Rita Hayworth's parents may have gained a little but not enough to sell her. Rita may have gained substantially but she drank too much to really take advantage of the opportunity. The parents of King Housein's wife may have gained a little as well.

    The great benefit accrued to the middle eastern potentates. They acquired a US connection.

    Fifi le Beau
    June 25, 2007 - 07:20 pm
    Justin, and don't forget they gained a lot of height.

    3kings
    June 25, 2007 - 08:50 pm
    Gee, I rather think that Eastern Potentates gained power or whatever, not from marriage, but from oil.

    And this power in the first instance, accrued to them by sidling up to England, Winston Churchill in fact. It was he, and also the French, who chose the Shah of Persia, and the potentates of Saudi Arabia.

    This was in the 1920's 1930's, when the US was very much a bit player in the Middle East. Following the Second World war, the place fell very much under American and Israeli influence. especially after the Suez crisis, and John Foster Dulles. ++ Trevor

    Justin
    June 26, 2007 - 04:31 pm
    Gee, Trevor, I think you are right for those middle eastrn countries with oil. The rest tried marriage among other things.

    Malryn
    June 28, 2007 - 06:20 am

    Giangaleazzo was too busy with his dogs and doctors to bother his head with these developments, but his fuming Isabella sensed their trend, and renewed her pleas to her father. In January, 1494, Alfonso became King of Naples, and adopted a policy frankly hostile to the regent of Milan. Popa Alexander VI was not only allied with Naples, he was anxious to make the town of Forli -- then ruled by a Sforza -- with other cities in a powerful papal state.

    Lorenzo de ' Medici, who had been friendly to Lodovico, had died in 1492, Driven to desperate measures to protect himself Lodovico allied Milan with France, and consented to give Charles VIII and the French army an unhindered passage through northwestern Italy when Charles should undertake to assert his rights for the Neapolitan throne.

    So the French came.

    Lodovico played heir to Charles, and bade him Godspeed on his expedition against Naples. While the French marched south Giangaleazzo Sforza died of a combination of ailments. Lodovico was wrongly suspected ot poisoning him, but gave some support to the rumor by the haste with which he had himself invested with the ducal title. (1495)

    Meanwhile Louis, Duke or Orleans, invaded Italy with a second French army, and announced that he would take Milan as his rightful possession through his descent from Giangaleazzo Visconti. Lodovido saw now that he had made a tragic error in welcoming Charles. Swiftly reversing his policy, he helped to form, with Venice, Spain, Alexander VI and Maximilian, a "Holy League" to expel the French from the peninsula (1495)

    Charles hastily retraced his steps, suffered an indecisive defgeat at Fornovo (1485) and barely managed to bring his battered army back to France. Louis of Orleans decided to wait for a better day.

    Justin
    June 28, 2007 - 11:36 pm
    These machinations are much like those in a poker game. If you call a bluff the player will back down. If you crumble before a bluff the player will roll over you. Ludovico simply threw Naples into the pot and Charles tossed in Milan. Alexander stood by ready to ally with the winner. I wonder if Iran is not bluffing our guy who never bluffs.

    Malryn
    July 3, 2007 - 06:40 am

    Lodovico prided himself on the apparent success of his tortuous policy; he had taught Alfonso a lesson; had foiled Orleans and had led the League to victory. His position now seems safe. He relaxed the vigilance of the diplomacy, and again enjoyed the splendor of his xcourt and the liberties of his youth.

    When Beatrice became pregnant a second time he freed her from marital obligations, and formed a liason with Lucrezia Crivelli (1496), Beatrice bore his infidelity with impatient grief. She no longer spread song and merriment about her, but immersed herself in her two sons.

    Lodovico vacillated between his mistress and his wife, pleading that he loved both. In 1497 Beatrice was again confined in childbirth. She was delivered of a stillborn son, and half an hour later, after great agony, she died, aged twenty-two.


    Beatrice

    Luxezia Crivelli by Leonardo

    Fifi le Beau
    July 4, 2007 - 09:11 pm
    According to a recent U.N. report the leading cause of death for women between the ages of 14 and 44 is pregnancy and childbirth. That is with only half the countries reporting statistics.

    Poor Beatrice, three children by age 22 and now dead leaving two orphans. Her children will have a chance of surviving due to the family wealth. The poor suffered a different fate and the odds of survival were not good.

    Since my mother is still living and active at age ninety five, I cannot imagine my life without her, especially as a small child.

    Fifi

    tooki
    July 5, 2007 - 09:54 pm
    Lodovico Maria il Moro Sforza (or Ludovicus Sforza), Duke of Bari, Duke of Milan and uncle of Isabella of Aragon

    Here is a wonderful portrait of him. At the bottom of the page are 13 Images, also interesting. Number 12 (I think) shows him in “The Last Supper,” as Jesus. And I see the resemblance! He was the model, all right. Any opinions?

    robert b. iadeluca
    July 6, 2007 - 04:14 am
    "From that moment everything changed in the city and the Duke.

    "Says a contemporary:-'The people showed such grief as had never been known before in Milan.' The court put on mourning. Lucrezia Crivelli fled into obscurity. Lodovico, overcome with remorse and sorrow, passed days in solitude and prayer and the strong man who had hardly thought of religion now asked for only one boon -- that he might die, see Beatrice again, earn her forgiveness and regain her love.

    "For two weeks he refused to receive officials, his envoys, or his children. He attended three Masses daily and daily visited the tomb of his wife in the church of Santa Maria delle Grazie. He commissioned Cristoforo Solari to carve a recumbent effigy of Beatrice and as he wished, when dead, to be buried with her in one tomb, he asked that his own effigy should be placed beside hers.

    "It was so done and that simple monument in the Certosa di Pavia still commemorates the brief bright day that for Lodovico and Milan, as well, as for Beatrice and Leonardo, had now come top an end."

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    July 9, 2007 - 03:52 am
    Letters

    robert b. iadeluca
    July 9, 2007 - 04:10 am
    "Lodovico and Beatrice gathered about them many poets but life was too pleasant at this court to inspire in a poet the arduous and persevering devotion that produces a masterpiece.

    "Serafino of Aquila was short and ugly but his lyrics, sung by himself to the lute he played, were a delight to Beatrice and her friends. When she died he slipped away from Milan, unable to bear the heavy silence of rooms that had rung with her laughter and known the lightness of her feet.

    "Lodovico invited the Tuscan poets Camelli and Bellincione to his court in the hope that they would refine the rude diction of Lonmbardy. The result was a war of Tuscan vs. Lombard poets in which venomous sonnets ousted honest poetry. Bellincione was so quarrelsome that when he died a rival wrote an inscription for his tomb, warning the passerby to tread quietly lest the corpse should rise and bite him.

    "Therefore Lodovico made a Lombard, Gasparo Visconti, his court poet. In 1496 Visconti presented to Beatrice 143 sonnets and other poems written in letters of silver and gold on ivory vellum, illuminated with delicate miniatures and bound in silver-gilt boards enameled with flowers.

    "He was a real poet but time has withered him. He loved Petrarch and engaged in an earnest but friendly debate with Bramante, in verse, on the relative merits of Petrarch and Dante for the great architect loved to think himself a poet as well. Such jousts of rhyme were a favorite amusement of Renaissance courts. Almost everybody took part in them and even generals became sonneteers.

    "The best poems written under the Sforzas were those of a polished courtier, Niccolo da Correggio. He had come to Milan in Beatrice's bridal train and had been detained there by love for her and Locovico. He served them as poet and diplomat and composed his noblest verses on Beatrice's death. Lodovico's mistress, Cecilia Gallerani, herself a poetess, resided over a distingished salon of poets, scholars, statesmen, and philosophers.

    "All the refinements of life and culture that marked the eighteenth century in France flourished in Lodovico's Milan."

    Any culture like that today?

    Robby

    Malryn
    July 9, 2007 - 06:56 am

    A book about Beatrice d'Este, the Renaissance, and poets and poetry. (Among others.)

    Justin
    July 9, 2007 - 05:58 pm
    Radio,motion pictures,television,and the computer provide passtime entertainment for the bulk of the population today. Others read romance novels. There are literary coteries called discussion groups active in every community. I suppose our own efforts in Senior net qualify us for membership in that group. However there is little relationship between the D'Este's literary coterie and the kind of thing we do today. I am not familiar with the contemporary world of poetry but I suspect those folks are well and active. I suspect that like us the d' Este's were just looking for entertaining passtimes.

    Fifi le Beau
    July 9, 2007 - 08:30 pm
    Robby asks, "Is there any culture like that today?"

    Don't think one would find anyone debating the relative merits of Petrarch and Dante in our present 'Court' in this country.

    All the courtiers are too busy looking for future lobbying contracts.

    The Jesters are all on You Tube. They let us know what is happening in the 'bigjesters' Court.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuE621j50Z0

    Fifi

    Fifi le Beau
    July 9, 2007 - 08:50 pm
    As Justin said, somewhere in this country literary societies still exist, but not in the 'Court' where the 'big kahuna' rules.

    Here is the head courtier showing off his talent.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ln5RD9BhcCo

    Fifi

    Malryn
    July 10, 2007 - 06:21 am

    FIFI, those are great! Thanks for the laugh.

    Mal

    Malryn
    July 10, 2007 - 06:54 am

    Lodovico did not match Lorenzo's interest in scholarhip, nor his discriminatioin in patronage. He brought a hundred scholars to the city, but their learned intercourse produced no outstanding native savant.

    Francisco Filelfo, who made all Italy resound with his erudition and vituperation,, was born in Tolentino, studied at Padua, became a professor there at eighteen, taught for a while at Venice and rejoiced in the opportunity to visit Constantinople as secretary to the Venetian consulate (1419). There he studied Greek under John Chrysoloras, married John's daughter, and served for years as a minor official at the Byzabtine court. When he returned to Venice he was ann expert Hellenist. He boasted, with some truth, that no other Italian had so thorough a knowledge of classic letters and tongues. He wrote poetry, and delivered orations in Greek and Latin, and Venice paid him, as professor of those languages and their literature, the unusually high stipend of 300 sequins ($12,500) a year. A still fatter fee lured him to Florence, where he became a scholastic lion.

    "The whole city," he assured a friend, "turns to look at me . . . My name is on every lip. Not only civic leaders, but women of the noblest birth make way for me, paying me so much respect that I am ashamed of their worship. My audience numbers every day four hundred persons, mostly men advanced in years, and of the dignity of senators."

    All this soon ended, for Filelfo had a flair for quaarreling, and alienated the very men -- Niccolo de' Niccoli, Ambrogio Travesari, and others --- who had invited him to Florence.

    When Cosimo de' Medici was imprisoned in the Palazzo Vecchio, Filelfo urged the government to put him to death. When Cosimo triumphed, Filelfo fled. For six years he taught at Siena and Bologna. Finally (1440) Filippo Narua Visconti drew him to Milan with the unprecedented fee of 750 florins per year. There Filelfo spent the remainder of his long and tempestuous career.

    Fifi le Beau
    July 12, 2007 - 07:32 pm
    Reading that Cosimo de' Medici had been imprisoned and some were calling for his head reminded me of a recent article where the Medici name came up with trouble brewing again.

    An Italian art smuggler and prolific black marketeer named Giacomo Medici was recently convicted in Italy, and is appealing the decision. Do Medici's still have friends in high places and will he like Cosimo oust his enemies, in this case the Italian prosecutor.

    The Medici name must still have clout since his warehouse was raided in 1997 and contained several thousand archeological works, and ten years later he is still free on appeal.

    Giacomo got caught when a former employee at Sotheby's got arrested and spilled the beans on Medici along with others. One of which was Marion True, the antiquities curator of the Getty museum who is currently on trial in Rome.

    The head of Sotheby's, Alfred Taubman, was convicted and sent to prison in the USA.

    Fifi

    Malryn
    July 13, 2007 - 09:44 am

    He was a man of awesome energy. He lectured foour hours a day in G reek, Latin, or Italian, expounding t he classics or Dante or Petrach. He delibered public orations for governmental cermonies or privte celebrations. He wrote a Latin epic on Francesco Sforzaa; ten "decades" of satires , ten books of odes, and twenty-four hundred lines of Greek poetry.

    He composed ten thousand lines "De seriis e iocis" (1465), which were never printed and are often unprintable.

    He buried two wives, married a third, and had twenty-four children in addition to the bastards that plagued his infidelities.

    Amid these labors, he found time to carry on gigantic literary wars with poets, politicians and humanists. Despite his handsome salary and incidental fees, he pled intermimttent poverty, and asked his patrons in classic couplets for money, food, clothing, horses, and a cardinal's hat. HHe mmade the mistake of including Poggio among his targets, and found that jolly scoundrel his master in scurrility.

    Footnote:

    A precious but untranslatable sample by Poggio about Filelfo: "Itaque Chrysolaras moerore confectus, compulsus precibus, malo coactus, filiam tibi nuptui dedit a te corruptam, quae si extitisset integra, ne pilum quidem tit abrasum ab illius natibus ostendisset."

    Fifi le Beau
    July 15, 2007 - 07:17 pm
    Oh Filelfo, he hounded his patrons for more, more, more. I suppose if one has three wives, 24 children, and lots of mistresses and bastards to support there is never enough.

    It is not Filelfo who is remembered so much as the Medicis when one is reminded of the Renaissance. I came across the Medici name again this week when reading a new magazine 'Portfolio'. The article discussed the meeting of Art and their private sponsors.

    One involved a young violinist who applied to use a rare Stradivarius in his concerts for a year. The Stradivarius was owned by an older couple who loaned it for a year with strings attached. First the recipient had to pay for insurance costing $6,000 and present the violin for regular inspection. Second he had to give three free concerts in their home or at a venue of their choosing. The donors in this case turned out to be less a gift and more of a burden.

    They compiled a list of the going rate to sponsor an artist for a year. The principal dancer at the American Ballet in New York went for $75,000. The same for a conductor of the Tacoma Symphony Orchestra. For $25,000 you could get an opera singer at the Chicago Opera for a year. To sponsor a Fellow for one summer at Tanglewood costs $15,000. And last was $5,000 for a playwright at the Cherry Lane Theatre in New York.

    These were personal sponsorships such as Filelfo got, but much less generous considering the time span.

    Millions are donated to the Arts in this country, but much of it is taken up in throwing parties for the donors. If money could buy a Renaissance we would have one, but I don't see it anywhere in our public culture.

    Sorry Robby and Mal about discussing the present, but each time the Medici name comes up it peaks my interest.

    Fifi

    robert b. iadeluca
    July 16, 2007 - 03:35 am
    I am so pleased that the Stradivarius was loaned "with strings attached."

    Robby

    Fifi le Beau
    July 16, 2007 - 09:38 am
    Robby, you caught my 'double entendre'. As soon as I wrote that the thought came to go back and add, "and I'm not talking about cat gut", but I like double meanings and you are a careful reader which is appreciated. Regardless, the statement was true both literally and figuratively.

    My grandfather played several instruments, one being the fiddle, and he always told us the strings were made of cat guts. That of course kept all the grandchildren away from his fiddle. We loved to hear him play 'Orange Blossom Special' which mimicked the sound of a train with the whistle blowing full steam ahead.

    We later learned that most strings were made from sheep and lamb guts, but that did not lessen our revulsion at the time.

    Violin came from Italian and fiddle from German and the English language accepts both even though they are the same instrument.

    My favorite violin/fiddle player is Mark O'Connor from Nashville. His performance with the Nashville Symphony is as good as his out of this world fiddling of the 'Orange Blossom Special'.

    http://www.owyheemountainfiddle.com/difference.html

    Fifi

    robert b. iadeluca
    July 16, 2007 - 03:45 pm
    "Even so, his learning made him the most sought-for scholar of the age.

    "In 1453 Pope Nicholas V, receiving him in the Vatican, gave him a purse of 500 ducats ($12,500). Alfonso I at Naples crowned him poet laureate and knighted him. Duke Borso was his host at Ferrara, the Marchese Lodovico Gonzaga at Mantua, the dictator Sigismondo Malatesta at Rimini.

    "When the death of Francesco Sforza, and the ensuing chaos, made his position insecure in Milan, he had no difficulty securing a post in the University of Rome. But the papal treasurer was remiss in his payments and Fifelfo returned to Milan.

    "Nevertheless he longed to end his days near Lorenzo de' Medici, to be one of the illustrious group that surrounded the grandson of the man whom he had nominated for death. Lorenzo forgave him and offered him the chair of Greek literature in Florence. Fifelfo was so poor now that the government of Milan had to lend him money for the trip. He managed to reach Florence but died of dysentery a fortnight after his arrival, aged eighty-three.

    "His career is one of a hundred that, taken together, convey the unique aroma of the Italian Renaissance, in which scholarship could be a passion and literature could be war,"

    Will there ever be such an age again?

    Robby

    Justin
    July 16, 2007 - 05:21 pm
    It is least likely with patronymic support but the profit system provides it's own mechanism for artistic support. It is less discerning for we get things like the fruits of television but tucked away in the profit system are little pockets of quality work that occasionally come to light. .

    Mallylee
    July 19, 2007 - 01:22 am
    Before the industrial revolution CAUSED the growth of individualism in both commerce and the arts, art was either popular/traditional, or higher culture/traditional. This is simplistic, of course, there isn't space to write a big essay here.The classical composers Bach and Mozart were Renaissance and individualistic to an extent, although the Industrial Revolution had still to produce Romanticism as a full blown movement in culture.

    So, apart from the money injected into the arts by church or rich individuals,which had been going on anyway since medieval times, the new(capitalist) trend towards individualism was a main inspiration for the arts.

    I agree with Justin

    Malryn
    July 19, 2007 - 06:35 am



    ART

    Malryn
    July 19, 2007 - 06:36 am

    Despotism was a boon to Italian art. A dozen rulers competed in seeking architects, sculptors, and painters to their capitals and their memory. In this rivalry they spent such sums as democracy rarely spares to beauty, and as such would never have been available to art had the proceeds of human labor and genius been equitably shared. The result was, in Renaissance Italy, an art of courtly distinction and artistocratic taste, but too often circumscribed, in form and theme, to the needs of secular potentates or ecclesiastical powers.

    The noblest art is that which, out of the toil and contributions of multitudes, creates for them a common gift and glory. Such were the Gothic cathedrals and the temples of classic Greek and Rome.

    Mallylee
    July 21, 2007 - 02:42 am
    That was what happened,but only as it turned out, centuries later. eventually .Many of the British historic houses and their glorious gardens which were paid for by the profits from sugar and slavery, have become properties of the National Trust and are open to the public. However, public benefit was not the intention of most of the owners of the slaves and factories.Robert Owen (not slaves) was an honourable exception.

    As for the builders of medieval cathedrals, the glory of God was the motivation, as it was for the whole of Christendom, not the pleasures of individuals.

    Rich Italians probably did not cause beautiful things to be made for the benefit of peasants like me!

    robert b. iadeluca
    July 21, 2007 - 09:00 am
    "Every critic denounces the duomo of Milan as a plethora of ornament confusing structural line.

    "But the people of Milan have for five centuries gathered fondly in its cool immensity and, even in this doubting day, cherish it as their collective achievement and pride. Giangaleazzo Visconti began it and planned it on a scale befitting the capital of the united Italy of his dreams. 40,000 people should find room there to worship God and admire Gian.

    "Tradition tells how, at that time, the women of Milan were afflicted with a mysterious disease in their pregnancies and many of their babies died in infancy. Gian himself mourned three sons painfully born and all soon dead.

    "And he dedicated the great shrine as an offering Mariae nascenti, 'to Mary in her birth,' praying that he might have an heir and that the mothers of Milan might bear a wholesome progency.

    "He summoned architects from France and Germany as well as from Italy. The northerners dictated the Gothic style. The Italians lavished ornaments. Harmony and style and form faded in a conflict of counsels and two centuriees of delay. The mood and taste of the world changed during the process. And those who finished the structure no longer felt as those who had begun it.

    "When Giangaleazzo died only the walls had been built. Then the work marked time for lack of funds. Lodovico called in Bramante, Leonardo, and others to design a cupola that should bring the proud wilderness of pinnacles to some crowning unity. Their ideas were rejected. Finally Giovanni Antonio Amadeo was drawn from his labors on the Certosa di Pavia and was given full charge of the whole cathedral enterprise.

    "He and most of his aides were rather sculptors than architects. They could not bear that any surface would remain uncarved or unadorned. He consumed in the task the last thirty years of his life. Even so the cupola was not finished until 1759.

    "And the facade, begun in 1616, was not completed untl Napoleon made that consummation an imperial command in 1809."

    A project which began in 1386 was not completed until after the United States of America came into existence!! We, in this Western civilization, find it difficult to think in terms of long-term completion. Everything must be done immediately.

    Robby

    Justin
    July 21, 2007 - 01:18 pm
    Yes, the motivation for building a Cathedral was, in general, for the glory of God and peasants as well as merchants and nobility were able to contribute to the construction. There is a much celebrated instance in France when the oxen were unable to perform so the townsfolk lashed themselves into the traces to pull the great granite loads.

    Funding for Canterbury came from a variety of sources at different stages of building. Once when the choir burned to the ground, Henry 11 supplied the money in Danegeld though the office of the Exchequer, Thomas Beckett. I once had the pleasure of locating in the ancient Canterbury library the actual charter granting the funds.

    Funding for the Duomo in Florence came from the wool merchants and wool workers guilds. The Medici also had a hand in Florentine church construction. Very often a guild would take responsibility for complete construction.

    Mallylee
    July 21, 2007 - 03:16 pm
    We, in this Western civilization, find it difficult to think in terms of long-term completion. Everything must be done immediately.(Robby).

    The ability of societies to plan ahead through many generations of its people perhaps is partly due to the belief in the eternity of God. Time moves at a different pace when eternity is in the front of consciousness.And also, perhaps the spendthrift immediate gratification needs of modern people has caused the bad state that our natural heritage of clear air and clean seas has got into. In the days before the machine age the pace of life was marked by slow seasons change, in Europe, that is.With machines came the possibility of fast profits and immediate rewards for labour, even for the poor labourers who could begin to get manufactured stuff.Modernity had to come. I wonder if we will cope with its legacy.Certainly we need to look at facts, and not hide from them in conserving some medieval faith as if it were a blueprint for survival.

    winsum
    July 22, 2007 - 03:10 pm
    It's amazing how many wealthy IRANIAN WOMEN CHOOSE TO BE BLONDS

    Hi Justin. you are right on target On the door step of the wealthy,in a shrinking world,are war,famine,and genocide.

    I'm frugalizing these days but would appear to be well off to many. the world has always been that way. halves and haves nots make it go round. if everyone were the same what would it be like. not russia or china, that didn't work ?????

    hi robby et al. claire

    winsum
    July 22, 2007 - 03:16 pm
    in searching google for a definition of emotional maturity I found this

    http://www.hinduwebsite.com/selfdevt/maturity.asp only after I had read most of it did I realize that Iwas on the Hindu Web Site. except for their requirement of a higher power I find them also to be right on target

    claire

    Mallylee
    July 23, 2007 - 03:53 am
    winsum that www is pretty good. I like the definition of personal maturity. I am not sure that this is not just an analogy for societies, or that there is any end-point in history to which humans can look forward.Perhaps it's enough to pose the idea as a 'what if'?

    robert b. iadeluca
    July 23, 2007 - 04:06 am
    "In Lodovico's day it was the second largest church in the world, covering 120,000 square feet.

    "Today it yields the specious honor of size to St. Peters and the cathedral of Seville but it is still proud of its length and breadth (486 by 289 feet), its height of 354 feet from the ground to the head of the Virgin on the spire of the cupola, the 135 pinnacles that splinter its glory, and the 2300 statues that people its pinnacles, pillars, walls, and roof.

    "All of it -- even the roof -- was built of white marble laboriously transported from a dozen quarries in Italy. The facade is too low for its width and yet hides the exquisite cupola.

    "One must be poised in midair to see this maze of praying stalagmites rising from the earth -- or one must travel again and again around the great dolmen amid a shower of buttresses to feel the extravagant majesty of the mass -- or one must come through the narrow and swarming streets of the city and suddenly emerge into the vast open square of the Piazza del Duomo to catch the full splendor of facade and spire turning the sun of Italy into a radiance of stones -- or one must crowd with the people through the portals on some holyday and let all those spaces, pillars, capitals, arches, vaults, statues, altars, and colored panes convey without words the mystery of faith, hope, and adoration."

    Mal, can you give us a link to this magnificent cathedral?

    Robby

    Malryn
    July 23, 2007 - 07:11 am

    Milan Cathedral. Scroll down, please

    winsum
    July 23, 2007 - 09:19 am
    or just use this.

    http://www.matterhorntravel.com/milan_cathedral.gif

    Malryn
    July 23, 2007 - 01:39 pm

    Milan Duomo. 360 degree view. Click images for view

    Justin
    July 23, 2007 - 04:03 pm
    It is a mortal sin to call Milan Duomo a Gothic Cathedral. It was built on the nail shop principal. If one spire works then a thousand must work a thousand times as well. Architecturally the building is eclectic. It is beyond Baroque. It is Rococo in its excess. The cathedral was designed by a committee with multiple preferences in form and style. It reminds me of the time a granddaughter tried to place 80 candles on a small birthday cake for me. We ate wax.

    There is a Cathedral in Barcelona with similar excesses. The Spanish think it's beautiful. Well, it's theirs and they are happy with it. I suppose that's what is important and not that it and Milan decri my concept of acceptable art.

    robert b. iadeluca
    July 23, 2007 - 05:22 pm
    Justin:-I yield to your artistic knowledge but it still looks magnificent to me.

    Robby

    Justin
    July 23, 2007 - 06:17 pm
    Robby: Good to see you in here challenging us again.

    The Cathedral appears magnificent to you only because it's not your field. Four psychologists working on a patient will probably produce a very mixed up human being. It's the nature of things.

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    July 23, 2007 - 06:30 pm
    Justin, I find this magnificent cathedral as delicate as embroidery in spite of is size.

    MILAN CATHEDRAL

    WW11 damaged it in 1943 and the courtyard was finished as recently as 1966, the article says.

    Justin
    July 23, 2007 - 11:22 pm
    It's about time you weighed back in, Eloise. That's a great phrase,"delicate as embroidery." OK. By the way, I've missed your comments.It's July. Montreal must have thawed by now.

    Malryn
    July 24, 2007 - 06:36 am

    It may be that this virus, which has been waking me up coughing every night for almost two weeks thinking I should call 911 and hie me to a hospital, has addled my brain, but after going a full 360 degrees among the spires of the Milan Duomo, I must agree with JUSTIN; it is a hodgpodge, a melange of sharp objects that doesn't appeal. Nails is a good way to put it.

    It reminded me immediately of Gaudi's Cathedral in Barcelona. People rave about it, but not I. Sorry, Antoni, I just don't get it, that's all.

    Mal

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    July 24, 2007 - 07:35 am
    "The word "merletto"(lace), which appeared in Venetian documents as early as the 15th century, comes from the word 'merli' which means the architectural elements that decorated medieval buildings, and later, the palaces of Venice in Flamboyant Gothic style. The production of Burano lace in the Venetian Republic reached its heyday in the 16th century. Duchess Morosina Morosini, Doge Morosini’s wife, had given the impulse for expansion to this traditional type of needlework. She was so fond of Burano lace that, at the end of the 14th century, she established a workshop employing 130 lace-makers."

    I wondered why the Milan Cathedral reminded me of delicate embroidery, I should have said lace, a long time ago I was admiring women sitting on their doorstep making lace in Burano. They didn't look like they had spent many years in school, but their work was as intricate and creative as a cathedral, yet today machine has replaced hand made lace, making it cheap and commonplace, a great loss. If you want something to last, make it in stone until some bomb destroys it.

    winsum
    July 24, 2007 - 09:58 am
    and I thought I was the only one who hated it and should not say anything. it reminds me of brown bread crumbs custing something or other. maybe up close it's nice

    Justin
    July 24, 2007 - 03:29 pm
    Milan and Barcelona offend one's sense of order and deny one the pleasure of simplicity and balance in design.

    winsum
    July 24, 2007 - 03:55 pm
    I find that there are many who don't appreciate simplicity and design they like detail and realism and the more photographic the better. the lace suggestion is probably accurate for this group. it's the amount of work that it takes which is important to them.

    Mallylee
    July 25, 2007 - 01:27 am
    It seems to be a tradition in RC churches to make them ornamented. If one contrasts the local RC church here in Derby (Pugin I think though I could be mistaken) with the C of E cathedral, there is a certain sense of birettas about the former, and plainness about the latter. This is true of other common RC churches in the UK, I find, Scotland as well as England.

    robert b. iadeluca
    July 25, 2007 - 03:42 am
    "There were good painters in Milan a generation before Leonardo came.

    "Vincenzo Foppa, born at Brescia and formed in Padua, worked chiefly in Milan. His frescoes in Sant' Eustorgio were renowned in their day and his Martyrdom of St. Sebastian still adorns a Castello wall. His follower Ambrogio Borgognone has left us a more pleasing legacy.

    "Madonnas in the Brera and Ambrosiana galleries at Milan, in Turin, and Berlin all in the pure tradition of warm piety, a delectable portrait of Giangaleazzo Sforza as a child in the Wallace Collection in London and, in the church of Incoronata at Lodi, an Annunciation which is one of the most successful renderings of that difficult theme.

    "Ambrogio de Predis was court painter to Lodovico when Leonardo arrived. He seems to have had a brush in Leonardo's Virgin of the Rocks. He may have painted the captivating angel musicians in the London National Gallery but his finest relics are two portraits now in the Ambrosiana, one of a very serious young man, identity unknown, the other of a young woman, now generally identified with Lodovico's natural daughter Bianca.

    "Rarely has an artist caught the conflicting charms if a girl innocently demure and yet proudly conscous of her simple beauty."

    Any comments about these paintings?

    Robby

    Justin
    July 25, 2007 - 11:20 am
    Mallylee: The Reformation brought a period of iconoclasm to the Netherlands that was followed by unadorned white interiors for Dutch Reform Churches. It was this style which came to America with the Durch in 1620 and influenced the design of many American church interiors.

    RC churches continued to teach through statuary and narrative images. RC church interiors may have a cluttered appearance for this reason but th exteriors in the Gothic style, except for the portals, have clean lines reaching upward to a place they think is the site of heaven.

    Mallylee
    July 25, 2007 - 02:32 pm
    Justin it's only an impression that I have, that RC churches are ornate and rather spiky, whereas Protestant churches are plainer. I am thinking only of 19th century RC churches, which are decidedly Gothic in appearance. The great medieval Gothic cathedrals were of course all RC.

    Now thatt I think a recall a little more, the 'higher' Churches of England are sometimes quite spiky.Maybe there was a 19th century fashion for the 19th centy Gothic among RC authorities that did not ring the bells of religious sentiment for the lower church Prots.

    The Dutch settlers in America, would they be Calvinists? In that case I begin to understand that 'pure' thought,i.e.thought that is unadulterated by any sensuous imagery, would be attuned to the simple undecorated whitewash of the interiors. This is a very interesting period in American religious history. I wonder if the Dutch settlers tended to remain on the Eastern seaboard, or if quite a few of them were among the pioneers who went westwards.

    Justin
    July 25, 2007 - 07:41 pm
    The Dutch were Calvinist and went for plain white interiors. No sensuality to distract one from the purpose at hand.

    When the early Dutch settlers went west they went to New Jersey. The French and Indian War opened up the Cumberland Gap and the rivers to Detroit. By that time the Dutch were English with a displaced culture that almost disappeared until contemporary times.

    I am a residual of a Dutchman who stayed in Manhattan, however, his brothers and parents all wagoned to Illinois in 1820 or so. Some elements of the Illinois bunch were attracted by gold and are now buried in a California cemetery near me. Funny how things work out.

    Malryn
    July 28, 2007 - 06:06 am

    An Apology from Mal

    I have recently been attacked by Asthmatic Bronchitis again, so haven't been able to keep up my end of the bargain here very much. The doctor told me to hie myself to the hospital if I didn't improve, so I've had to be very careful.

    Living alone brings certain extra challenges to anyone, especially a disabled person. The control on my motorized wheelchair decided to give me trouble at this time, too. This involved some major figuring out about how to get help when I couldn't move one way or the other, and my cell phone was just out of reach the other week. I can't afford the almost fifty bucks a month for the Lifeline equipment others wear.

    The body has all kinds of signals, if you learn to rececognize them. Shortness of breath, extra pain, etc. tell me to stop being stressed in a hurry.

    The wheelchair has now been repaired -- a brand new $1500.00 control was installed yesterday. What we forgot to do was lower the speed, so I went around the parking lot at this building for a test ride as if it had been the Indy 500.

    The Mobility Express in Scranton technician is a very helpful and kind man, maybe about 50 years old. He told me his youngest son, age 20, was killed in Iraq in March. All I could think of was what I've read and learned in Will and Ariel Durant's Story of Civilization and this discussion. I am far less idealistic and hopeful than I was five years ago when I made my first post here. I don't like it much, either, but there's just so much hiding one's head in the sand that can go on in one lifetime.

    Now I'm going to copy something from the book and post it here. I'm on a heavy duty antibiotic and Prednisone right now for my lungs. A side effect is less pain all over for me. Why do the drugs that make one feel so much better do so much damage?

    Mal

    robert b. iadeluca
    July 28, 2007 - 06:45 am
    I have been away for a couple of days and came back to find out that I couldn't enter SN. I didn't know anything about this new software. It kept asking me for my password and I didn't know I had a password. It was necessary for me to register. Eloise emailed me and I answered and she got me on the right track. So now I'm back in SN but find that I have to learn this new software. I take it that all you people are practicing it too.

    Robby

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    July 28, 2007 - 07:44 am
    "MarcieSchwarz Director of Online Services Administrator

    Posts: 21

    Newest Discussion for Practice- OPEN « on: July 25, 2007, 11:30:06 AM » Quote

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Try out all of the features of our new discussions. This discussion will periodically be deleted and a new practice discussion created. The two previous pratice discussions are now "locked." You can read them but not post messages.

    Click REPLY to post a message a here.

    We'll be making changes over the next month to this discussion software to modify it for our use. Stay tuned! You also can still participate in our active SeniorNet discussions on the previous version of our web site at http://discussions.seniornet.org (bookmark that page).

    We have some Help documents for these new discussions at http://www.seniornet.org/jsnet/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=157&Itemid=99. We'll be creating more soon."


    Yes, we'd better get used to this new software because this "old" one will be gone in a few months.

    There is only the Practice discussion open right now, the others will be open later on. It takes practice and lots of patience but many SNetters are there to help us.

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    July 28, 2007 - 08:23 am
    More instructions posted by Jane:

    "I'd strongly urge you all to take it ONE step at a time. Don't worry about putting up your picture or what your header will look like or how to do all the glitz. Just follow these directions. Worry about the picture, the glitz, the whatever later.

    GET registered with the username you want and log in and stay logged in unless you're on a public computer.

    Print out this list, if it's helpful to you:

    REMEMBER that the actual number of pages on the practice area will have changed...I did this screen shot some days ago. Now there are 50+ pages of practice posts in the one discussion that's open.

    some suggestions...

    1. Go to the new homepage: http://www.seniornet.org/jsnet/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1

    2. Place your mouse pointer on the word COMMUNITY at the top but don't click.

    3. A drop down menu lists Discussions. Click on that.

    4. Scroll down the SeniorNet Discussions page until you see: Practice Here

    5. Under Practice Here is PRACTICE DISCUSSIONS. Click on those words.

    6. You'll now see several practice discussions. Several have a lock on them and are closed. Look for the top one that is open and has a "pin" instead of a lock.

    7. If you've been there before, click on the word NEW ...it's right before the page numbers IF there are new messages since you were there last.

    8. If you've not been there before and don't want to read 21+ pages of posts, click on the last page number, not ALL.

    As you go through the "pages" click on the next page number, not the "next" button which is currently taking people to the old discussion or to the first post in the new discussion."

    Malryn
    July 28, 2007 - 10:03 am

    The cities sujbect to Milan suffered from the luring of their talent to the capital, but several of them managed to earn a place in the history of art. Como was not satisfied to be merely a Milanese gate to the lake that gave it fame. It was proud, too, of its Torre del Comune, its Broletto, above all of its majestic marble cathedral. The superb Gothic facade rose under the Sforza rule (1457-87). Bramante designed a pretty doorway on the south side, and on the east Cristoforo Solari built a charming apse in Bramantean style.

    More interesting than these features is a pair of statues adjoining the main portal. On the left is Pliny, the Elder. On the right, Pliny the Younger, ancient citizens of Como, civilized pagans finding a place on a Christian cathedral facade in the tolerant days of Llodvico the Moor.

    The pride of Bergamo was the Cappella Colleoni. The Venetian "condotiere", born here desired a chapel to receive his bones, and a sculptured centotaph to commemorate the victories. Giovanni Antonio Amadeo designed the chapel and the tomb with splendor and taste, and Sixtus Siry of Nurembergsurmounted the sepulcher with an equestrian statue in wood, which would have won a wider fame had not Verocchio cst the great captain in prouder bronze.

    Bergamo was too near to Milan to keep its painters home, but one of them, Andrea Previtali, after studying with Giovanni Bellini in Venice, retujrned to Bergamo (1513) to bequeath to it some paintings of exemplary piety and modest excellence.

    Mallylee
    July 28, 2007 - 10:53 am
    Malryn best wishes for the wheelchair and your meds. Sense of humour certainly intact !

    Justin
    July 28, 2007 - 02:40 pm
    This is what I get for not keeping up with SN newsletters-a surprise change in procedure due to a major software change. I thought what we had was very effective. It seemed idiot proof. But there is always someone around who must fix what ain't broke. OK. Ok I'll do it. Don't twist my arm.

    Malryn
    July 29, 2007 - 08:20 am

    Brescia, subject at times to Venice, at times to Milan, held a balance between the teo influences, and developed its own school of art, After determining his talent among half a dozen cities, Vincenzo Fuppa returned to spend his declining years in his native Brescia.

    His pupil, Vincenzo Civerchio shared with Floriano Ferrando the honor of foring the Brescian school. Giuliamo Romani, called Romanino, studied with Ferrando, later in Padua and Venice.. Then, making Brescia his center, he painted there, and in other towns of northern Italy, a long series of frescoes, alterpieces, and portraits, excellent in color, less laudable in line. Let us name only the "Madonna and Child" in a magnifient frame by Stefano Lamberti, in the church of San Francesco. HIs pupil, Alessandro Bonvicino, known as Moretto da Brescia, brought the dynasty to its zenith by blending the sensuous glory of the Venetians with the warm religious sentiment that marked Brescia coming to an end.

    In the church of SS . Nazaro e Celso, where Titian placed an "Annuciation" Moretto painted an equally beautiful "Coronation of the Virgin," whose archangel rivals in delicacy of form and feture the most graceful figures of Correggio. Like Titian he could paint, when he wishes, an appetizing Venus, and his "Salome," instead of revealing a murderess by proxy, shows us one of hte sweetest, gentlest faces in the whole gamut of Renaissance art.

    Cremona gathered her life around her twelfth century cathedral and its adjoining Torrazo -- a campanile almost challenging Giotto's and the Giralda. Within the "duomo" Giovanni de' Sacchi -- named Il Pordenone form h is native town -- painted his masterpiece, "Jesus Carrying His Cross."

    Three remarkable families contributed successive generations of color to Cremonese painting: the Bembi (Bonifazio, Benedette, Gian Francesco) , the Boccaccini, and the Campi. Boccaccio Boccacciani, after studying in Venice and burning his fingers in a eompetition with Michelangelo in Rome, returned to Cremona and won acclaim by his frescoes of the Virgin in the Catherdral. His son Camillo continued his excellence.

    In like manner the work of Galeazzo Campi was carried on by his sons Giulio and Antonio, and by Giulio's pupil, Bernadino Campi. Galeazzo designed the church of Santat Margherita in Cremona, and then painted in it a magnificent "Presentation in the Temple."

    So the arts, in Renaissance Italy, tended to mate in one mind, and flowered under geniuses of such versatility as not even Periclean Greece had known.

    Fifi le Beau
    August 7, 2007 - 09:27 pm
    Has this discussion gone on hiatus, or moved to the new website? There have been no posts since Mal's on July 29th.

    Through the efforts of the many Italians who saved manuscripts, translated texts, and brought our culture back to life after many years of darkness, I am grateful.

    There were many stumbling blocks along the way, mainly by the church, but nothing seemed to stop the creative furies that was Italy for a hundred years. They built a fire that burned bright enough to bring change and light the way for our future.

    Here is part of that future brought to you be eggman who bought a software package for about $30 and created 'Women in Art' which is a way of displaying art never dreamed of by the Italian artists we are discussing. Those who read SOC will recognize some of the paintings as they have recently been linked here. This is short so turn up the music and enjoy.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUDIoN-_Hxs

    Fifi

    Malryn
    August 8, 2007 - 03:12 pm

    Wow, FIFI, that's wonderful! Thanks so much for posting the YouTube 500 years of women in art, or whatever it's called. Who's the technical genius who did it? I'd love to have it for my own.

    The STORY of CIVILIZATION is on hiatus, as you guessed, until the new SeniorNet website is up and running and this one is gone. That's the end of this month, for heaven's sake. If you haven't been in to register and practice posting, I suggest that you hightail it over there and do it right now.

    NEW SENIORNET SITE

    I find it easiest when I get there to go to COMMUNITY at the top of my screen. Then I scroll down and click DISCUSSIONS. There are 3 practice discussions right now, so after you register, get in there and practice posting a message. My opinion is that this new site is a whole lot easier than this one is, especially since you won't have to use any html.

    See you over there!

    Mal

    Bubble
    August 9, 2007 - 03:28 am
    Mal, if you want the 'women in art', I can send it to you as an attachment in a e-mail. That is how I received it.

    Malryn
    August 9, 2007 - 04:48 am

    Why, thank you, BUBBLE. How nice of you!

    Mal

    Bubble
    August 9, 2007 - 06:19 am
    It's on its way Mal. I hope Yahoo will not make problem for a file almost 7.00MB in size. Don't forget to put you volume up: the music too is special.

    Adrbri
    August 9, 2007 - 08:29 am
    Malryn - - - you can watch that YouTube video any time you want by going to this link, and you don't have to clutter up your hard drive.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUDIoN-_Hxs

    Just paste the link to a place where you can find it easily.
    If you want to send the link by email to a friend, they can have it also

    Brian.

    Justin
    August 10, 2007 - 11:25 pm
    Bubble: Thank you for sending me the link. Every face brought me a memory of the first time I saw the lady. The experience was a course in Art History I wish I had put together. There is enough material for a full semester.

    Bubble
    August 11, 2007 - 02:09 am
    Unfortunately, for me there are many I do not recognize or have forgotten Also it needs slowing down to really appreciate it, but that would make it very very long indeed.

    Adrbri
    August 11, 2007 - 01:03 pm
    I would really appreciate it if one of you put together a list of all the ladies portrayed in that YouTube. Of course I recognised many of them, but there were also many that just evoked the feeling - "I've seen her before, but who is she?"

    The YouTube can be paused at any point to study the profile.

    This might give us something to do while we wait for the S. of C. to return? It might take a whole semester!

    Brian.

    Adrbri
    August 16, 2007 - 10:28 am
    I have finally tracked down the names and portraits used to put together the YouTube video of the "500 Years of Women in Western Art"

    http://www.maysstuff.com/womenid.htm

    Brian.

    Fifi le Beau
    August 16, 2007 - 09:26 pm
    Brian, thanks for answering your own question. Didn't eggman do a wonderful job of melding one photo into another as though they were in motion.

    My granddaughter married last year and her brother, who is three years older, made a video of her life in pictures. From the photo in the hospital with my son holding her when she was less than one hour old, with 'My girl' playing in the background to her engagement announcement. He covered her entire life from baby to college grad in pictures, interspersed with video, with many different kinds of music to set the scene.

    He did such a fantastic job that he was inundated with phone calls wanting him to create something similar for them. We can no longer give out his phone number since he spends long hours on his work, creating computer games.

    It was he who sent me the link to 'Women in Art', and I wanted to share it here with all of you.

    Fifi

    JoanK
    August 16, 2007 - 11:53 pm
    I've been lurking and kind of half paying attention. Are MAL and ROBBY both tied up now?

    Malryn
    August 17, 2007 - 05:51 am

    I am here, though ailing with cellulitis in my wonky leg. I imagine ROBBY is still trying to recover from his shoulder problem. Things will get going when we move to the new site, so ROBBY says.

    Mal

    JoanK
    August 17, 2007 - 05:09 pm
    I'm sorry you're still having trouble. Thanks for letting us know. I know when I'm in pain, I don't want to talk to ANYBODY.

    The discussions are on the new site now, but not SOC. I imagine they're waiting for someone to come to monitor it. Meanwhile, we can post here til Sept 1. But if any of you haven't, I urge you to get on the new site now. You'll need time before the old one disappears to make sure you can get on OK an can post. There are places here where you can ask for help, but once this site is gone, if you can't get on the new one, who you gonna call (I don't think Ghostbusters makes house calls).

    patwest
    August 20, 2007 - 07:30 am
    Jane has done a great job with the tips link below

    TIPS for getting around this new site

    I printed them out -- they are quite good.

    jane
    August 20, 2007 - 02:36 pm
    Robby has posted in the SOC discussion at the new site, so you can now join him there.

    You need to be REGISTERED at the new site. Registration here does not carry over to that site. Then you need to log in. This is all on the lower left side bar at

    http://www.seniornet.org

    Once you've gotten logged in, hover your mouse arrow over Community a t the top of the page and then when the drop-down menu appears, click on Discussions.

    You'll then be on the SeniorNet Discussions Index page.

    Scroll down to the Books and Literature area i on the Discussions, and then click the Current Book Discussions and then the Story of Civilization. If you click the NEW you'll be taken to the first new post.

    jane