Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant ~ Volume V, Part 1 ~ Nonfiction
Marjorie
November 25, 2006 - 09:46 pm
  
"I want to know what were the steps by which man passed from barbarism to civilization." (Voltaire)

What are our origins? Where are we now? Where are we headed? Share your thoughts with us!
Volume Five (The Renaissance)

"Four elements constitute Civilization -- economic provision, political organization, moral traditions, and the pursuit of knowledge and the arts. "

"I shall proceed as rapidly as time and circumstances will permit, hoping that a few of my contemporaries will care to grow old with me while learning. "

"These volumes may help some of our children to understand and enjoy the infinite riches of their inheritance."

"Civilization begins where chaos and insecurity ends."


THE RISE OF THE MEDICI

The Setting
The Material Basis
Cosimo "Pater Patriae"
Architecture
Sculpture
Painting

In this volume the term "Renaissance" refers only to Italy. Will Durant studies the growth of industry, the rise of banking families like the Medici, the conflicts of labor and capital and considers the reasons why Italy was the first nation, and Florence the first city in Italy, to feel the awakening of the modern mind. He follows the cultural flowering from Florence to Milan, Mantua, Ferrata, Verona and Venice, Padua and Parma, Bologna, Rimini, Urbino, Perugia, Siena, and Naples.

In each city of Italy we witness a colorful pageant of princes, queeens, dukes, or doges -- of poets, historians, scientists, and philosophers -- of painters, sculptors, engravers, illuminators, potters, and architects -- of industry, education, manners, morals, crime, and dress -- of women and love and marriage -- of epidemics, famines, earthquakes, and death.

Dr. Durant draws vivid vignettes -- of Petrarch, Boccaccio, Cosimo de' Medici, Fra Angelico, Donatello, Beatrice and Isabella d'Este, Leonardo da Vinci, Piero della Francesca, Signorelli, Perugino, Giovanni Bellini, Giorgione, Aldus Manutius, Correggio, Alexander VI, Caesar and Lucrezia Borgia, Julius II, Leo X, Raphael, and Michelangelo.

The Renaissance, by recalling classic culture, ended the thousand year rule of the Oriental mind in Europe.

This volume, then, is about YOU. Join our group daily and listen to what Durant and the rest of us are saying. Better yet, share with us your opinions.

Your Discussion Leader:Robby Iadeluca

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robert b. iadeluca
November 27, 2006 - 06:10 pm
I am aware that we have newcomers here and you are all most WELCOME!! It is not necessary for you to own the book. Durant's words are posted here daily.

Durant tells us constantly that each of the eleven volumes stands alone. Do not feel out of place because you were not part of discussing earlier volumes. There are lots of people (you may be one of them) who were not interested in the ancient civilizations but are intensely interested in the Renaissance. As we begin this volume, we will all be starting at the same point. Durant chooses to begin in the year 1304 as he tells us about the person he calls "The Father of the Renaissance.

Thirty days have passed since a number of us here parted each other's company for a well-earned sabbatical after having immersed ourselves in Durant's "The Age of Faith." Two full years have passed since many of us entered this volume. Five years have passed since some of us came together to begin sharing Durant's eleven volume set. It took us approximately one year to discuss each of the first three volumes, this one taking almost twice as long.

I was a young 81 when I took on the responsibility of facilitating this discussion group. I am now a young 86. In the Heading of this discussion group I quote Durant as saying: "I shall proceed as rapidly as time and circumstances will permit, hoping that a few of my contemporaries will care to grow old with me while learning. " I like to think that with Durant's help I have become not only older but a bit wiser. It is my hope that you feel the same.

As we all know, there are six more volumes in the entire set of "The Story of Civilization" after this one -- The Reformation, The Age of Reason Begins, The Age of Louis IV, The Age of Voltaire, Rousseau and Revolution, and the Age of Napoleon. If we allow one year per volume, I will be a sprightly 93 as we complete the set. Who knows what we will do after that? Aside from reading and possibly teaching, my plan is to continue ballroom dancing, assuming there is anyone willing to dance with me at that point!

In reading his first volume, "Our Oriental Heritage," we passed through four thousand years of history. Durant taught us that "Europe and America are the spoiled child and grandchild of Asia" -- that we never quite realized the wealth of their pre-classical inheritance. I was amazed to learn how much the East affected the West -- how many of our customs, how much of our science and mathematics and how much of our language is derived from Egypt, Babylonia, Assyria, Judea, Persia, India, and China.

His second volume, "The Life of Greece," opened my eyes to what the Greek civilization bequeathed to the nations of Europe and the Near East. Quoting Durant:-"Every Greek colony poured the elixir of Greek art and thought into the cultural blood of the hinterland -- into Spain and Gaul, Etruria and Rome, Egypt and Palestine, Syria and Asia Minor and along the shores of the Black Sea." Furthermore, Durant emphasizes, we must include in our Hellenic heritage not only what the Greeks invented but what they adapted from older cultures and transmitted by these diverse routes to our own -- our handicrafts, techniques of mining and engineering, processes of finance and trade, organization of labor, and the governmental regulation of commerce and industry. And, of course, and of great importance, the democratic idea of a government responsible to the governed, of trial by jury, and of civil liberties of thought, speech, writing, assemblage, and worship.

. With his third volume, "Caesar and Christ," he helped us to watch the rise of Rome from a crossroads town to mastery of the world. I watched the spread of this civilization over the Mediterranean ans western European world. In Durant's opinion, the information presented in this volume contained many parallels to modern history. He discussed the class struggles and the jockeying for power. He found what he called an "analogue" to the development of Europe and America from the French Revolution to the present. He reminded us that "dictators have ever used the same methods." In this volume we saw the beginnings of Christianity -- the times of Jesus, the growth of the church, the collapse of the Empire and the triumph of Christianity. Discussing the reason why Rome fell, Durant taught us that "a great civilization is not conquered from without until it has destroyed itself within." He spoke of the "negligence and sterility of harassed and discouraged men." He told us of the declining native population and the rapidly breeding "outsiders." In his words, "Rome was conquered not by barbarian invasion from without, but by barbarian multiplication within." He saw the growth of Christianity more an effect than a cause of Rome's decay and that "Christianity unwillingly shared in the chaos of creeds that helped produce that medley of mores which contributed to Rome's collapse." A parallel to modern history?

And then came that imposing volume, "The Age of Faith" -- 1000 years in 1000 pages -- from A.D. 325 to 1300 -- what Durant called "an account of medieval civilization." While he taught us much about the progress and climax of Christianity and the Judaic civilization, I learned more than I would have believed from his detailed description of the Islamic civilization -- the time of Mohammed, the Koran, Eastern and Western Islam, and the grandeur and decline of Islam. While I would in no way describe myself at this time as "knowledgeable" about this important religion, I would hazard a guess that most of us who participated in discussing this volume are way ahead of most of today's watchers of current events who see what is happening but have no idea why. Speaking for myself, I cannot read the daily news regarding the East-West conflict without constantly thinking of the form, creed, and ethics as stated in the Koran, the Muslim peoples and their economy, faith, and their system of government. I acknowledge what they have given us over those thousand years -- their literature, their art, their music, their science, their scholarship, their medicine, and their philosophy. Durant described the rise and decline of Islamic civilization as one of the major phenomena of history pointing out that for five centuries, from 700 to 1200, Islam led the world in power, order, and extent of government, in refinement of manners, in standards of living, and in humane legislation and religious toleration. I don't want to let myself forget that.

Sitting on one shelf in my home library are eleven volumes -- the last seven as spanking brand new as the day I bought them. The first four are well worn, bearing evidence of having been handled and mishandled day after day after day as I facilitated this group. The first volume long ago fell apart into the various sections that existed before the bookbinder glued them into one volume. There is hardly a page which does not show a red underlining and around the book is a ripped dust cover. The next three volumes underwent similar treatment. All my life I have respected books and have taken good care of them but I have more respect for these four which did not receive gentle care because they helped me to grow. For decades they sat in my library doing nothing whatsoever on my behalf.

In the early part of my eighties they changed my life. I no longer look at current events as I did five years ago. My view is a long view. I understand better why the Muslims are angry about events that took place centuries ago whereas I am surrounded by youngsters and even middle-aged people who cannot give the dates of the American Civil War.

And so -- we are embarking on another voyage. A tip to those new to this discussion group. Keep your eyes on the GREEN quotes in the above heading. They are changed periodically and tell us where we are in the book and where we are headed. If you are lucky enough to possess the volume, resist the temptation to jump ahead. Stay with the rest of us so that our interchanges make sense.

Finally, I would ask that everyone who has arrived here (even those who are only planning on lurking) to at least say "hello" so that I know you are here.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
November 30, 2006 - 05:36 pm
"The following guidelines will be enforced by the Discussion Leader to avoid confrontations and digressions about personal religious views.

"1 - You may make one post describing your own beliefs related to religion (whether you have a religious faith or do not) in order to explain your viewpoint toward the topic at hand. Making additional posts about your religious beliefs or faith is not permitted.

2 - Do not speak of your religion or absence of religious beliefs as "the truth."

3 - Do not attempt to change another's conviction about religion. "Comments about issues are welcomed. Negative comments about other participants are not permitted.

"Those participants who do not believe they are being treated fairly in this respect always have the right to contact Marcie, Director of Education. I will follow her guidance."

Stating it differently, we often disagree (whether about religion or anything else)but in an agreeable way. Regarding political views, we refrain from commenting about current political figures but concentrate on the era we are examining.

And now let us be on our way, concentrating primarily on the topic at hand, i.e. The Renaissance and anything related to it.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 1, 2006 - 05:42 am
The Father of the Renaissance

robert b. iadeluca
December 1, 2006 - 05:58 am
"In that same year 1302 in which the aristocratic party of the neri (Blacks), having seized the government of Florence by force, exiled Dante and other middle-class bianchi (Whites), the triumphant oligarchy inducted a White lawyer, Ser (i.e. Messer or Master) Perracco on the charge of having falsified a legal document. Branding the accusation as a device for ending his political career, Petracco refused to stand for trial.

"He was convicted in absence, and was given the choice of paying a heavy fine or having his right hand cut off. As he still refused to appear before the court, he was banished from Florence and suffered the confiscation of his property. Taking his young wife with him, he fled to Arezzo. There, two years later, Francesco Petrarca (as he later euphorized his name) burst upon the world.

"Predominatnly Ghibelline -- yielding political allegiance to the emperors of the Holy Roman Empire rather than to the popes -- little Arezzo experienced in the fourteenth century all the tribulations of an Italian city. Guelfic Florence -- supporting the popes against the emperors in the struggle for political authority in Italy -- had overwhelmed Arezzo at Campaldino where Dante fought.

"In 1340 all Aretine Ghibellines between thirteen and seventy were exiled. In 1384 Arezzo fell permanently under Florentine rule. There, in ancient days, Maccenas had been born. There the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries would see the birth of Giorgio Vasari who made the Renaissance famous and of Pietro Aretino, who for a while made it infamous.

"Every town in Italy had fathered genius and banished it.

In 1312 Ser Petracco rushed north to welcome the Emperor Henry VII as one who would save Italy or at least its Ghibellines. As sanguine as Dante in that year, Petracco moved his family to Pisa and awaited the destruction of the Florentine Guelfs."

Something is about to happen. Your thoughts?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 1, 2006 - 06:08 am
More information about the GUELPHS AND GHIBELLINES.

Robby

Sunknow
December 2, 2006 - 09:51 pm
Robby- I see you planned ahead and are waiting to greet everyone.

Let the words begin. I won't speak often, but I'm here, for yet another beginning.....

Sun

Adrbri
December 2, 2006 - 10:25 pm
Nicely put. The same goes for me too. I may not post very often, but I'm an active reader,

Brian

Justin
December 3, 2006 - 12:25 am
I did not expect to begin till Monday, US time but you have opened it so let the discussion begin here.

I think you, Robby, will define Guelth and Ghibeline well enough but you might pass on such things as time reference. So I will mention that it is common to refer to the 14th century as Trecento and to the 15th century as quatrocento. The designation helps one to recognize that the 14th century refers to the 1300's etc. As we move through the period you will find that the designation is useful. You may even wish to refer to the duecento and the cinquecento as the twelve hundreds and the fifteen hundreds..

Justin
December 3, 2006 - 12:31 am
Has anyone heard from Mal? Does anyone know of her condition?.

Bubble
December 3, 2006 - 01:19 am
prysm, "---Let's send messages to Malryn" #60, 1 Dec 2006 4:14 pm

JoanK
December 3, 2006 - 02:23 am
Hi, guys. I'm here as always. But I'll be mostly lurking until I finish my move to California. I hope to be settled and back in full force sometime in February.

JoanK
December 3, 2006 - 02:27 am
The link is confusing. It doesn't mention the Pope or the Church, but represents the conflict as between the "communes" and the emporer. Clarification, anyone?

Mallylee
December 3, 2006 - 02:51 am
Robby , your introduction has made me more interested in reading history. Your overview itself has enlightenment in it.

Éloïse De Pelteau
December 3, 2006 - 07:28 am
I admit I am a little weary after reading some 25,000 posts in S of C during the past 5 years and I can only afford lurking right now, but please continue on and I might have time to participate more after the new year when the discussion Depths of Glory is over. I certainly would like to know how the Renaissance started, an important movement in the progress of Western civilization. We might discover that it has also affected the Eastern civilization, I don't know.

Pat H
December 3, 2006 - 07:34 am
I'm going to take advantage of this new start to jump in, though I'm uncertain yet how active I can be.

For starters, Robby, if you can actually make me keep the Guelfs and Ghibelines straight, you will accomplish something nobody else has done.

Pat H
December 3, 2006 - 07:37 am
Justin, have I got this straight? 1300s=trecento=14th century; 1400s=quattrocento=15th century, etc.

tooki
December 3, 2006 - 07:48 am
noisy, undisciplined, and inconsistent. And today I'm also puny. But Ill be here.

MrsSherlock
December 3, 2006 - 07:54 am
Thanks, Robby, for the invitation to join you all at this late date. I'll be lurking for sure, maybe contributing. Jackie

Scrawler
December 3, 2006 - 08:48 am
As I understand it "Renaissance" is defined as a "rebirth". Could we define renaissance than as the rebirth of classical times?

robert b. iadeluca
December 3, 2006 - 09:27 am
Throw in your opinions whenever you wish, Jackie. Glad to have you with us!

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 3, 2006 - 09:43 am
"Pisa was stll among the splendors of Italy.

"The shattering of her fleet by the Genoese in 1284 had reduced her possessions and narrowed her commerce. The strife of Guelf and Ghibelline within her gates left her with scant strength to elude the imperialistic grasp of a mercantile Florence eager to control the Arno to its mouth.

"But her brave burghers gloried in their majestic marble cathedral, their precarious campanile, and their famous cemetery, that Campo Santo, or Sacred Field, whose central quadrangle had been filled with soil from the Holy Land and whose walls were soon to receive frescoes by Giotto's pupils and the Lorenzetti, and whose sculptured tombs gve a moment's immortality to the heroic or lavish dead.

"In Pisa's university, soon after its establishment, the subtle jurist Bartolus of Sassoferrato adapted Roman law to the needs of the age, but phrased his legal science in such esoteric verbiage as brought both Petrach and Boccaccio down upon his head.

"Perhaps Bartolus found obscurity prudent, since he justified tyrannicide, and denied the right of governments to take a man's property except by due process of law."

What we now call cities were small "empires" battling among each other. Any comments?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 3, 2006 - 09:49 am
This article helps us to understand the gradual growth of PISA.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 3, 2006 - 09:56 am
More information about PISA.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 3, 2006 - 10:34 am
An interesting HISTORY OF GENOA.

Robby

BaBi
December 3, 2006 - 10:35 am
Petrarch and Boccaccio I know, but Bartolus of Sassoferrato is a wholly new name to me. So I looked him up, and I'm surprised more is not taught concerning him.

BARTOLUS

Perhaps this explains why we don't know him better:

CAMBRIDGE JOURNALS

Babi

Barbara St. Aubrey
December 3, 2006 - 10:35 am
When the words "The Renaissance" are said or read my immediate mind picture is the arts and maybe the political climate in the Church - it is an adjustment to realize the arts would not have their glory days without economic development and the political development that established not just cities but opportunities for men to become powerful as individuals and within groups and it is these powerful men who raised a city, the church as well as the arts into prominence.

I will be reading this time - how much I have time to contribute till after the holidays is an issue for me - I do pack up and leave for my daughter's some 1600 miles from here, in the middle of the month and come back home at the New Year - lots to do in the next two weeks - however, Robby I will stop in here as often as possible -

robert b. iadeluca
December 3, 2006 - 10:59 am
Welcome BaBi and Barbara! We move fast in this discussion -- new things every day, so come and post often.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 3, 2006 - 11:01 am
This MAP OF ITALY shows how close Genoa and Pisa are on the western coast of Italy.

Robby

winsum
December 3, 2006 - 11:21 am
Dr With led us into the renaissance with this painter who was the first to use perspective and real men. see this article. he died young but was important to the period in that he made the world seem REAL.

http://www.masaccio.it/html_eng/home.htm

Bubble
December 3, 2006 - 11:28 am
That Genoa site is most interesting with lots of details I had never read about. I should have read it before visiting there, I would not have spent so much time admiring the sculptures in the old cemetery!

hats
December 3, 2006 - 11:43 am
The links about Pisa are very interesting. Many times I have seen the Leaning Pisa in books or on tv. I didn't know that a city named Pisa existed.

MrsSherlock
December 3, 2006 - 12:20 pm
Masaccio is a name new to me; I have been a longtime Carravaggio (1571 - 1610) fan for his use of real people as models (his mistress was the model for Mary, it is said) and his use of light and shadow. Here is a brief bio and links to some of his paintings: http://www.artchive.com/artchive/C/caravaggio.html He was just barely born in this period but probably isn't truly Renaissance. Never having studied Art History I am just picking it up as I go along. Here I have found a new perspective .

robert b. iadeluca
December 3, 2006 - 12:33 pm
"Henry VII died (1313) before he could make up his mind to be or not to be a Roman emperor.

"The Guelfs of Italy rejoiced. Ser Petracco, unsafe in Pisa, emigrated with his wife, his daughter, and his two sons to Avignon on the Rhone, where the newly established papal court and a rapidly expanding population, offered opportunities for a lawyer's skill.

"They sailed up the coast to Genoa and Petrarch never forgot the unfolding splendor of the Italian Riviera -- towns like diadems on mountain brows, slipping down to green blue seas. This, said the young poet, 'is liker to heaven than to earth.'

"They found Avignon so stuffed with dignitaries that they moved some fifteen miles northeast to Carpentras and there Francesco spent four years of happy carelessness.

"Bliss ended when he was sent off to Montpellier and then to Bologna to study law."

Anyone here ever visited the Italian Riviera?

Robby

kiwi lady
December 3, 2006 - 12:36 pm
I have a feeling the Renaissance period did have an effect on the Islamic Art and the culture and technique that went along with it. I am sure we discussed something about this effect in the Book "My Name is Red" Justin am I dreaming this?

I am no scholar and I am entirely self taught in many areas but my impression of the overall Renaissance period was it was more a Revolution in the arts, politics and science am I correct on this assumption? It was a much later period when we had the Industrial Revolution.

Carolyn

robert b. iadeluca
December 3, 2006 - 12:37 pm
Here is information about HENRY VII. The cast of characters increases and the plot thickens.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 3, 2006 - 12:41 pm
Here are some lovely photos of the ITALIAN RIVIERA. Click on each photo to enlarge it.

Robby

Pat H
December 3, 2006 - 12:50 pm
Even those beautiful pictures don't do the Italian Riviera justice, because they don't capture the vivid light. It's been 50 years, but I still remember the beauty.

hats
December 3, 2006 - 01:00 pm
PatH, when you traveled to the Italian Riviera, did you find the beaches so crowded?

Evelyn133
December 3, 2006 - 01:10 pm
Hi Robby,

Just wanted to let you know I'll be reading along with you.

I don't know how much I'll post.

Evelyn

robert b. iadeluca
December 3, 2006 - 01:24 pm
That's just fine, Evelyn! And experience has shown that those who say they will just read can't resist the temptation now and then to give an opinion.

Robby

winsum
December 3, 2006 - 01:49 pm
Justin is right. I had an art major at ucla which included three art history classes. Dr. Carl With pronounced Veet. . . taught three hundred of us in EB 100. He especially wanted to show the difference between the Gothic and Giotto and the beginning of a natural rendition with masaccio in what he referred to as the beginning thirteenth century.Giotto was of the twwelfth century.

we also were into the florence Brunelsi dome and campanili with its donatello statues in the niches changing in style over a long period, moving into a more naturalistic rendition of figures.

I get confused with specifying dates as centuries even now but 1401 when Masaccio was born was referred to in that class as thirteenth century. Justin taught art history and probably had to do much of the same confusing kind of thing. Amazing that I can still see the images in my mind after sixty years.

Claire

Barbara St. Aubrey
December 3, 2006 - 02:27 pm
Been to Avignon - Carpentras, Montpellier and the French Riviera in the late 70s and early 80s but not the Italian Hill Towns or the Italian Riviera - the hill towns are still on my list of places to see.

I forgot about the schism of the Popes happening at this time in history -

Sounds like water ways were still the most important transportation routes as compared to land routes.

When I thought of land routes my next thought was Salt routes - looking up where Florence obtained its salt and learned that most Medieval recipes used little to no salt - sounds like they didn't have a regular route climbing over the Dolomites into the Salt Mines of Switzerland and Germany.

Did find this neat link about Medieval Pasta

robert b. iadeluca
December 3, 2006 - 02:53 pm
Any comments about Durant's remarks in Posts 4, 21, and 33?

Robby

Bubble
December 3, 2006 - 03:12 pm
I arrived in Genoa by boat, I will never forget the beauty of the scenery "towns like diadems on mountain brows, slipping down to green blue seas." I don't think I ever read any Petrarch. I must do that!

Avignon, Carpentras, Montpellier all bring back lots of memories. The Italian riviera had more flavor for me. Montpellier and Bologna are totally different maybe because they are university towns.

Fifi le Beau
December 3, 2006 - 04:37 pm
Robby's #4 which begins the Renaissance.

Durant begins by explaining the different factions in simple terms of black and white. It's the age old battle between the haves and the have nots.

The blacks are the haves. The Guelf oligarchy who favor the Pope.

The whites are the have nots. The Ghibelline who favor the Emperor.

The empire of Rome has fractured like a broken glass into smaller city/states and the quest for power to rule pits the rich against the middle class and poor.

Durant gave a good example of that with his portrayal of a middle class lawyer who was taken to trial and found guilty in his absence. The punishment was to lose his hand or take what belongings he could carry and leave. The rich merchants had no interest in his hand (though the lawyer surely did) but wanted his property. He chose to leave and they chose to take his property.

The ensuing battles within Italy were between cities over who would rule, either the Emperor or the Pope with his rich benefactors. The Papal states will emerge from this battle, and then slowly deflate like a balloon.

Robby's link to Genoa added a new god to my list called Belanu. Bel in Celtic means light. The Celts were inhabiting Genoa when the Phoenicians arrived and they formed a society that used their god Belanu to protect them from 'Gryphon' a mythological beast from Mesopotamia.

Some people collect seashells, I collect gods. I have over the years written three notebooks full and given them to my daughter at her request. I continue to collect and have only recently filled two more pages with as yet unread by me, new gods. I do not seek them out, but discover them as I continue to read what interests me.

The Celts used animals to name themselves. Arthu means bear. Is this where the name Arthur comes from in the Celtic myths of King Arthur. Bennu means crow. Moccu for wild boar (a wild man with no sense of direction) and Hirpu as wolf (a ladies man).

Genoa and Pisa would dominate the seas, but Durant has the cities embroiled in the battle of the blacks and whites and he has only set the stage for the second act.

Fifi

kiwi lady
December 3, 2006 - 05:17 pm
Please explain the use of Blacks and Whites to me. To me Blacks means people of black skin colour, Whites- people of fair complexion. What is the context in this discussion.

robert b. iadeluca
December 3, 2006 - 05:46 pm
Carolyn:-Remember Dante? THIS may answer your question or it may confuse you (and us) even more.

Robby

kiwi lady
December 3, 2006 - 06:34 pm
Thank you Robby. I suspect I should have been on Dantes side!

HubertPaul
December 3, 2006 - 09:00 pm
'hello', of course, :>)

Bert

tooki
December 3, 2006 - 09:17 pm
were symbolic before Dante was around. The symbolism of color goes way back. Here is a brief discussion. I like it because it demonstrates, as Robby discussed in his intro, how much we are indebted to the orient.

The Symbolism of Black and White

Fifi le Beau
December 3, 2006 - 09:36 pm
Kiwi lady, your statement....

Please explain the use of Blacks and Whites to me. To me Blacks means people of black skin colour, Whites-people of fair complexion. What is the context in this discussion.

The context in this discussion is the first line of Durant's Renaissance posted by Robby in #4.

"In that same year 1302 in which the aristocratic party of the neri (Blacks), having seized the government of Florence by force, exiled Dante and other middle-class bianchi (Whites)

There can be no context in any discussion, where the participants do not read the text to be discussed.

Fifi

kiwi lady
December 3, 2006 - 10:03 pm
I honestly did not see that Fifi. However you could be a bit more polite. I am not very well at the moment and I did read the heading but must have missed that bit. Perhaps I should not participate in this discussion if I do not meet the standards.

Justin
December 3, 2006 - 11:29 pm
Robby's 33 talks about Petrach and his travels to Genoa ( Genova) from Pisa. He describes the Ligurian coast in glowing terms and asks if we have been to the Italian Riviera.

It is difficult to chose a starting point for a discussion of the Renaissance. I would chose Giotto and his elder colleague Cimabue and their work at Assissi to begin the Renaissance in art. Durant chose to open with politics. He picks a poet who has ties to foreign rulers. Henry Vll, German Holy Roman Emperor, has plans to add the Italian cities to his Imperial realm. When he dies in the first quarter of the Trecento, Petrach living in Pisa, and a Ghibelline, finds himself without support and flees to Avignon in France where a rival Pope is in residence supported by the King of France. The religious and political settings in 1 Q Trecento are complex but this is the route Durant has chosen and I think we must deal with it. Art will follow in Durant's time.

Justin
December 3, 2006 - 11:31 pm
Carolyn: Kia Kaha. We can not do without you.

winsum
December 3, 2006 - 11:46 pm
wars and politics durant's choice isn't mine. I thought we were through with that with the age of faith. too bad. seeya. . .claire

Justin
December 3, 2006 - 11:56 pm
Political conflict in Italy was centered in civil war between a party favoring the Church (Guelfs) and those favoring the authority of the German emperor (Ghibellines); Italian Guelf cities included Florence, Montepulciano, Bologna, and Orvieto; Ghibelline dominated cities included Siena, Pisa, Pistoia and Arezzo; during the 1260's the Ghibellines were defeated and lost their influence; then the Guelf party split into two factions, one critical of the corruption of the Pope but supportive of the Church (the Whites) and the other unconditionally supportive of the Pope and the Church (the Blacks). Dante, you will recall, was a White Guelf. He was forced to give up home and holdings in Florence and flee for his open criticism of the Pope in his profligate ways. Our own recent experience with a profligate ruler was moral innocence compared to these guys. One Pope in this period is said to have expressed his role this way;" God has seen fit to give us the chair of Peter. Let us make the most of it.

kidsal
December 4, 2006 - 12:51 am
I will be reading along and have my old art history book at the ready. Am so old that some of the names I have read remind me of WWII -- the Arno.

tooki
December 4, 2006 - 03:43 am
would just hang in there. Italian politics of the 13th and 14th hundreds were tedious, boring, and eventually unimportant. What has to be teased out is how these years produced the artists who created the art that is still a part of the fabric of our lives. All participants will bring different perspectives to this discussion, bound to be fractious. I urge everyone to stay the course, cheer for your favorite artist, and boo the bad popes.

I am hoping the discussion clears up one of my biggest mysteries in art: why does Donatello's "David" have on a flower garden hat when he is otherwise completely nude? .

robert b. iadeluca
December 4, 2006 - 04:09 am
Let's be nice to each other, folks. Some days we might feel tired, some days we might feel sick, some times we might be having a "bad hair" day. When that happens, let's those of us who are having a "good hair" day be patient. Tired or ill days comes to all of us at one time or another.

The key words are "patience and understanding".

Nice to see you back, Bert!

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 4, 2006 - 04:21 am
"Bologna should have pleased Francesco.

"It was a university town, full of the frolic of students, the odor of learning, the excitement of independent thought. Here in this fourteenth century were given the first courses in human anatomy.

"Here were women professors, some, like Novella d'Andrea, so attractive that tradition, doubtless fanciful, described her as lecturing behind a veil lest the students should be distrtacted by her beauty.

"The commune of Bologna had been among the first to throw off the yoke of the Holy Roman Empire and proclaim its autonomy. As far back as 1153 it had chosen its own podesta or city manager. For two centuries it had maintained a democratic government.

"But in 1325, while Petrarch was there, it suffered so disastrous a defeat by Modena that it placed itself under the protection of the papacy and in 1327 accepted a papal vicar as its governor.

"Thereby would hang many a bitter tale.

Bologna a democracy in the 12th century? Woman professors? An autonomous city?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 4, 2006 - 04:26 am
Information about BOLOGNA.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 4, 2006 - 04:32 am
Here is a FASCINATING FIRST PERSON STORY of a University of Utah student who spent time in Bologna.

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
December 4, 2006 - 06:08 am
Carolyn, I have always liked your posts in every discussion you participate in. Please continue as before, we think alike you and I.

Durant said: "Here were women professors, some, like Novella d'Andrea, so attractive that tradition, doubtless fanciful, described her as lecturing behind a veil lest the students should be distrtacted by her beauty." Now why did Durant mention women's beauty instead of their knowledge for once? Were there no other women of influence besides Novella? Women with brains?

Have to go and fix my hair.

robert b. iadeluca
December 4, 2006 - 06:13 am
More info about NOVELLA D'ANDREA and other women in the university.

Robby

BaBi
December 4, 2006 - 07:17 am
I am fascinated to learn about all the women university professors in Bologna. Boy, am I learning a lot here! Laura Bassi is especially interesting; the range of her knowledge was awesome.

While the bit about Novella D'Andrea may be a bit of Italian fantasizing, I suspect it could very well be true. Young men are notorious for allowing their thoughts to roam on seeing beautiful women. She may very well have decided a veil was the only way she was going to keep their minds on her lectures.

Doesn't it always happen that a new burst of growth in knowledge and breaking away from old conventions results in women moving forward? A 'Renaissance' means new life, vitality, boldness, openness. As it passes, boldness gives way to a more staid desire for security; no rashness or surprises desired. Which means, of course, restrictions. Which may explain why centuries later, women were struggling to be allowed to study 'male' subjects such as anatomy and medicine, when at one time they had been able to teach them.

Babi

mabel1015j
December 4, 2006 - 11:32 am
Imagine! Women understanding math, chemistry, biology, anatomy in the 14th century!...tic....For many of us in the "senior" age group, our studying of history did not include any info about women, not because women haven't been there or were not important, but because of the patriarchy that had been there thru out history, but exploded in the 20th century. How many of you had female history teachers/professors? Men controlled not only the classrooms, but the textbooks and determined what issues were important. Most of what we learned revovled around military, political and economic history. Even women who were teaching history focused on those issues and tended to ignore any women who may have been active in those areas.

Thanks to Durant and Robby's links for bringing them back into our awareness. ......

Carolyn, stay w/ us, we've all missed somethings here and there, we're taking in a lot of information, who can remember it all????.....jean

Putney
December 4, 2006 - 11:50 am
As requested, I am announcing that I am a lurker These books have been a part of my life, beginning with the bookshelves of my parents. I will be very interested in the discussion, and the opinions.

Scrawler
December 4, 2006 - 12:14 pm
It is nice to see that women educators showed influence as far back as the Renaissance. When I was in school all the people we ever read about were white, male, and old and the history that was taught in the 1950s was all military or economic. I learned very little about the arts.

Bubble
December 4, 2006 - 12:39 pm
The anecdote about Novella D'Andrea teaching from under a veil( not a burka!) reminded me of another woman teacher, the daughter of a famous rabbi - possibly Rabbi Akiva- who was so erudite that she could hold her own in the middle of a roomful of learned rabbis. The problem was that women were not allowed to mingle with men. The solution was teaching the students from behind a curtain so that they could not even see her shape.

winsum
December 4, 2006 - 12:42 pm
looks more like a girl but then he was a teen ager wasn't he? also an explanation of the hat

david

it's been mentioned so is it legal to supply the image? if this were abut the arts which is what I always thought the renaissance meant we could sho the beautiful Michelangelo one too. actually how has the world of govt, politics and pwer changed during this period. did it become more ENLIGHTENED. so far seems to be pretty much the same as always. . . hi Carolyn stick around. . . claire

Bubble
December 4, 2006 - 12:44 pm
Claire, your link says: Sorry, the page you requested was not found.

winsum
December 4, 2006 - 01:11 pm
I see that Bologna was indeed a renaissance or new knowledge kind of town. The university active even then is now spread all over the world. I did notice that the emphasis was on science and supporting subjects such as math. there was very little on the arts there at that time.

I liked the definition someone made here of just what Renaissance means to a culture . . . truly an enlightenment and a PUSH to satisfy our native born curiosity. . .

However this discussion has taken an interesting turn into women and their place in society. something current we can't seem to resist. sorry robby.claire

winsum
December 4, 2006 - 01:15 pm
the number 70 of 72 just worked for me. the first one as a tiny url didn't maybe that's the one yo tried. sorry bout that. . .claire

kiwi lady
December 4, 2006 - 01:33 pm
The sculptures of Christ are always unrealistic. (as are the paintings including the Russian Icons) If you read the discription of Christ in the New Testament he was an unremarkable looking man. I like to think of him as that unremarkable looking man. I think that is what drew people to him. He was very approachable. Donatello was probably more correct in his interpretation than were the others.

hats
December 4, 2006 - 01:34 pm
I am glad KiwiLady is back. Bubble, your story about the woman standing behind the curtain is very moving. It's very sad too.

robert b. iadeluca
December 4, 2006 - 03:51 pm
You are a very welcome lurker, Putney. But feel free to throw in a word now and then.

Robby

kiwi lady
December 4, 2006 - 04:05 pm
Remember the movie by Streisand. Yentl I think it was called.

Carolyn

robert b. iadeluca
December 4, 2006 - 04:57 pm
"Petrarch liked the spirit of Bologna but he hated the letter of the law. 'It went against my bent painfully to acquire an art that I would not practice dishonestly and could hardly hope to practice otherwise.'

"All that he cared for in the legal treatises was their 'numberless references to Roman antiquity.'

"Instead of studying law he read all that he could find of Virgil, Cicero, and Seneca. They opened to him a new world, both of philosophy and of literary art. He began to think like them, he longed to write like them.

"When his parents died he abandoned law, returned to Avignon and steeped himself in classic poetry and romantic love.

"It was on Good Friday of 1327, he tells us, that he saw the woman whose withheld charms made him the most famous poet of his age.

"He described her in fascinating detaial but kept the secret of her identity so well that even his friends thought her the invention of his muse and counted all his passion as poetic license. But on the flyleaf of his copy of Virgil, jealously treasured in the Ambrosian Library at Milan, may still be seen the words that he wrote in 1348:-

'Laura, who was distinguished by her virtues, and widely celebrated by my songs, first appeared to my eyes in the year of Our Lord 1327, on the sixth day of April, at the first hour, in the church of Santa Clara Avignon. In the same city, in the same month, on the same sixth day, at the same first hour, in the year 1348, that light was taken from our day.'

"Who was this Laura?

"A will was filed in Avignon on April 3, 1348, by one Laura de Sade, wife of Count Hugues de Sade, to whom she had given twelve children. Presumably this was the lady of the poet's love, and her husband was a distant ancestor of the most famous sadist in history.

"A miniature attributed to Simone Martini, and now in the Laurentian Library at Florence, is described by tradition as a portrait of Petrarch's Laura. It shows a face of delicate beauty, fine mouth, straight nose, and lowered eyes suggesting a pensive modesty. We do not know if Laura was married or already a young mother when Petrarch first saw her. In any case she received his adoration calmly, kept him at a distance, and gave his passion all the encourgement of denial.

"The occasional sincerity of his feeling for her is suggested by his later remorse over its sensual elements and his gratitude for the refining influence of his unrequired love."

He remembers the year, the day, the hour when he first saw her. Oh, the passion of a first love. And Durant again with his marvelous choice of words - "the encouragement of denial." Sounds like an oxymoron but men who have pursued women and women who have held back their own desires know exactly what the phrase means.

Robby

bluebird24
December 4, 2006 - 06:04 pm
love the shepherd painting! How many guelphs and ghibellines?

robert b. iadeluca
December 4, 2006 - 06:08 pm
Another approach to Petrarch's LOVE POEMS.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 4, 2006 - 06:10 pm
Welcome, Bluebird! Continue to fly with us.

Robby

Andara8
December 4, 2006 - 06:16 pm
I hope to drop in occasionally, time and reading permitting. Thank you for the invitation, Robby!

robert b. iadeluca
December 4, 2006 - 06:25 pm
Laura is the face in the misty light
Footsteps that you hear down the hall
The LAUGH that floats on a summer night
That you can never quite recall
And you see Laura on a train that is passing through
Those eyes how familiar they seem
She gave your very first kiss to you
That was Laura but she's only a dream

robert b. iadeluca
December 4, 2006 - 06:29 pm
Welcome, Andara! Hope to read your comments from time to time.

Robby

Fifi le Beau
December 4, 2006 - 06:33 pm
Robby, you are a most insightful man, as I skipped over the 'encouragement of denial' comment.

My eyes were focused on the dates. It was 21 years between the first sighting till he wrote on the flyleaf of his copy of Virgil her name and his eulogy 'that light was taken from our day' when she died.

After 21 years and 12 children she must have been an exceptional woman to have still been a 'light' in an admirers eyes. How different their lives must have been, yet he still felt a connection to her after all that time.

Fifi

Éloïse De Pelteau
December 4, 2006 - 06:52 pm
PETRARCH

Fifi le Beau
December 4, 2006 - 07:42 pm
Carolyn, I am glad you are here. Having stood side by side at the barricades and withstood many a barrage, there is no one I'd like better at my side. Traveling through a war zone for six years is tough work, but you're a pro. Feel better soon.

Here's a link to Petrarch's letters. From what I've read so far, I like him very much.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/petrarch1.html

Fifi

EllieC1113
December 4, 2006 - 08:14 pm
Hello. I would love to spend time discussing this topic. Right now, I will "lurk" and read your posts.

Eleanor

Traude S
December 4, 2006 - 08:54 pm
ROBBY, the Renaissance - which the Italians call "rinascimento"- is a fascinating era, and I would like to participate here from time to time, to the extent I am able. I am not a regular in this group but grateful nonetheless to be in the company of old friends, again.

Right from the first paragraph Durant has us enthralled. The reader is in medias res .

But readers wondered, justly, about the Bianchi = whites, and the Neri = blacks. What Durant did not mention is the fact that "Bianchi" and "Neri" are different names for the Guelphs and the Ghibellines = two rival political factions embroiled in a power struggle for the crown of Holy Roman Emperor.

As has been stated several times, these factions originated in Germany and the words "Guelphs" and "Ghibellines" are transliterated from the German.

From the 8th century, the Welfen were a noble house in Bavaria. The word is pronounced 'velfen' and became in Italian "Guelfo" (sing.) Guelfi (plural), and "Guelph(s)" in English.
The rival noble house were the Hohenstaufen , also known as Staufer in the region called Swabia (=Schwaben). The ancestral castle was located in the town of WAIBLINGEN, and that became Ghibellini (plural) in Italian.

Here's how to distinguish and remember them : the Guelphs supported the Pope (monosyllabis words, both);
the Ghibellines supported the Emperor (multisyllabic words, both).

Previous post have already indicated to which stratum of Italian society the Guelphs and the Ghibellines, respectively, belonged.

As ÉLOÏSE said, the mysterious Laura, Francesco Petrarca's inspiration, is believed to have lived in Avignon, France, was married and had many children. Her husband is said to have been a libertine (like his distant dissolute relative of the same name), who left her. Laura died at Avignon in the plague.

CAROLYN, your question was justified IMHO. Please do stay with us. I believe the colors black and white are meant symbolically. The Guelphs, the supporters of the Pope, were the Whites, the Ghibellines, supporters of the Emperor, were the Blacks.

gaj
December 4, 2006 - 10:05 pm
I have been lurking. While I probably won't post often, I will try to continue to follow the discussion.

tooki
December 4, 2006 - 10:22 pm
He has his hat and boots on.”

Thanks, winsun, for the "David" site. It came up easily for me. It’s really a charming explanation(s) of the hat. Maybe when we get to Donatello it can be cited again because it brings up many fascinating questions which are out of place at the moment. We’ll just have to bide our time. Meanwhile, here it is again for those who just can't wait. David

Justin
December 4, 2006 - 10:28 pm
Traude: It is such a delight having you back in here even for a little while. Your descriptions of things are usually so precise. I wonder about Guelf and Ghibelline and Black and White. My understanding is that Black and White are variations of the Guelf gang. White supported the Papacy but objected strongly to it's policies of self aggrandisement. Blacks on the other hand supported the Papacy without reservation. Dante, for example. was Guelf White and for that reason forced to leave Florence.

Justin
December 4, 2006 - 11:14 pm
The Donatello David from 1st Q Quatrocento I regard as the greatest David in sculpture. Donatello did several Davids, some in marble, some in bronze. The 1 Q bronze is rendered in the contraposto body position of the antique classical forms. Adolescent initial awareness of self is a part of the image. The body is virile and sensuous as he stands, one foot upon the head of his victim. During the middle ages unclothed male figures were frowned upon as immoral by the Church and this is the first major breakthrough. Sinners in hell might be unclothed but not adolescent heros and especially not David. I hesitate to say more because we are a century beyond our present position and centuries and even quarter centuries are so significant in the Recimiento. It is foolish to get ahead of ourselves. There are several great themes developed in art and in social life in the Renaissance and one of them is evident in this great David. It is an awareness of the power of self. It will appear again and again.

Jan
December 4, 2006 - 11:15 pm
I was reading on a British site and someone mentioned Durant, and asked if the Volumes were ever read these days. Someone else said haven't they had their day? Another person said they only used theirs to prop the toilet door. I wrote a little promo post about this site etc but nobody answered unfortunately.

hats
December 4, 2006 - 11:30 pm
Petrarch is an interesting man. I can not imagine writing three hundred sixty-six poems about the same person, Laura. Did she exist? If she existed, did he love her? Perhaps, in the future, some old, old letters or diaries will prove her existence and Petrarch's love for her. Of course, we still have questions about Mona Lisa.

winsum
December 4, 2006 - 11:31 pm

hats
December 4, 2006 - 11:36 pm
Claire, I have always loved the name Laura. What a pretty name to choose for your daughter. As a teenager, I had a best friend, Her baby sister's name was Laura. I love Petrarch's words. Don't you? These are some lines, along with Robby's that I like.

To make a graceful act of revenge,
and punish a thousand wrongs in a single day,
Love secretly took up his bow again,
like a man who waits the time and place to strike.


All these years and centuries later, Petrarch's words still have emotion and passion.

winsum
December 4, 2006 - 11:38 pm
are we into poetry now

hats
December 4, 2006 - 11:41 pm
Claire, I don't know what we are into now. I have been reading over the posts. I happened to read the posts of Eloise and Robby. I want to discuss art too. I want to discuss or read about all of the Arts, even if I don't contribute, I am reading along. Any type of creativity is interesting to me. I know you are the same way. Pissaro misses you.

Frybabe
December 4, 2006 - 11:41 pm
Give me a day or so and I'll get caught up. I got as far as PISA.


Does any one know if they are still excavating the harbor for those sunken ships that were found several years back? I forget what period the ships are.I believe the theory was that they were caught in a storm.


It's a good thing, Robbie, that you are quoting the book here. I packed my books up for a move. 18 milk crates and counting. I,too, have the complete volumes and look forward to the discussions even if I don't pipe up and put in my two cents often.


Margie

hats
December 4, 2006 - 11:43 pm
Frybabe, I am not caught up either. This is not easy reading for myself.

hats
December 4, 2006 - 11:50 pm
What is in this library? Is it dedicated to one individual's works?

kidsal
December 5, 2006 - 02:14 am
Michelangelo's staircase in the Laurentian Library completed in 1559 is probably best known by every Art History student.

robert b. iadeluca
December 5, 2006 - 04:42 am
So good to hear from all of you! Welcome to Eleanor and Frybabe. Good to again hear from GinnyAnn (gaj) and from Traude who explains many things so well for us. And I agree with you, Jan, that I prefer the term "listen" rather than lurk, which seems to be the common term on SN. Whichever you use, we will understand what you mean.

Let us now move on. Many other discussions go on for days without a posting. Please be forwarned that here, however, with rare exceptions Durant talks to us once daily, if not twice, depending on the reactions from you folks.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 5, 2006 - 04:59 am
"Meanwhile he lived in Provence, the land of the troubadours.

"The echoes of their songs still lingered in Avignon and Petrarch, like the young Dante a generation before him, became unconsciously a troubadour, wedding his passion to a thousand tricks of verse.

"The writing of poetry was then a popular pastime. Petrarch complained, in one of his letters, that lawyers and theologians, nay, even his own valet, had taken to rhyming. Soon, he feared, 'the very cattle would begin to low in verse.' From his own country he inherited the manner, form, and bound it into the difficult rhyme pattern that for centuries molded and hampered Italian poetry.

"Walking along the streams or among the hills, kneeling distracted at Vespers or Mass, groping his way among verbs and adjectives in the silence of his room, he composed during the next twenty one years 207 sonnets and sundry other poems on the living, breeding Laura.

"Gathered in manuscript copies as a Canzoniere or Songbook, these compositions caught the fancy of Italian youth, of Italian manhood, of the Italian clergy. No one was disturbed by the fact that the author, seeing no road to advancement except in the Church, had taken the tonsure and minor orders and was angling for a benefice. But Laura may have blushed -- and thrilled -- on hearing that her hair and brow and eyes and nose and lips were sung from the Adriatic to the Rhone. Never before, in the salvaged literature of the world, had the emotion of love been expounded in each diverse fullness or with such painstaking artifice.

"But the Italian people received these bonbons in the most exquisite music tht their language had yet heard -- subtle and delicate and melodious, gleaming with bright imagery making even Dante seem at times crude and harsh. Now indeed that glorious lanuage -- the triumph of the vowel over the consonant -- reached a height of beauty that even to our day remains unscaled.

"An alien can translate the thought but who shall translate the music?"

A language where the "vowel triumphs over the consonant." Need I point out that in the eight letters in my last name, five of them are vowels?

Robby

Mallylee
December 5, 2006 - 05:19 am
Hats#97 how good that little poem is! Thanks

Mallylee
December 5, 2006 - 05:24 am
'Triumph of the vowel over the consonant' re Romance languages that is very interesting. I wonder if there s something intrinsically lyrical about Romance languages. Yet,the intonations of Italian sound to me to be affectionate rather like a mother to a baby, while Spanish sounds staccato, perhaps Moorish influence?

robert b. iadeluca
December 5, 2006 - 06:38 am
Ginger Wright, a Senior Netter who does not post in SofC but who is a very loyal and active SNetter, and whom I have had the pleasure of meeting at a number of Bashes, creates rosters of participants in various discussion groups. She tells me this morning that at the moment there are 29 posters and lurkers in Story of Civilization.

I have often said that, as discussion leader, I am merely the steering wheel. You folks are the engine. You are the energy. If you stopped, I would be a leader without a discussion and SofC would die.

A total of 29 (if not more on the way) will make Renaissance a most successful discussion as the months move along.

Robby

hats
December 5, 2006 - 07:08 am
Robby, I enjoyed reading the article about the student in Bologna. How amazing, basketball and Bologna, I think of basketball as an American sport. I hope it's alright to post about Bologna after the subject is well past. I read facts very slowly.

Hi Ginger!

gumtree
December 5, 2006 - 07:22 am
Robbie - 86 years young!

Ginger will need to count me in as well - if only as a 'lurker' though I daresay I'll have an occasional word or two.

I don't have the text so will just read as you post - already too much to digest quickly

Petrarch is on one of my 'long neglected' shelves - such an obsession for the lovely Laura almost beggars belief except that the poetry shows such an uncompromising truth as to make believers of us all. A pity I can only read it in English!

Traude S
December 5, 2006 - 07:25 am
JAN, ROBBY, how gratifying to see that I'm not alone in disliking the word "lurk".
It's wonderful to see all the posts.

JUSTIN, thank you. Yes, I know: the issue of the Bianchi and Neri is more intricate, and Italian history infinitely more complex than can be outlined in a few sentences. I did check my old Italian source material before posting last night, and wanted merely to show that with the simple linguistic trick it IS possible to distinguish between the Guelphs and the Ghibellines and their respective loyalties to Pope or Emperor. No more digressions.

hats
December 5, 2006 - 07:28 am
Provence

I don't want to post too often. The subject is just so interesting. This is a quote from above article. Johnny Mathis is mentioned.

"Lavender's Blue" is another folk song from this period that has had many incarnations. It is both a well-loved nursery rhyme and a contemporary love song recorded by Johnny Mathis."

I hope this link is alright. I am not good at researching the perfect link.

JoanK
December 5, 2006 - 07:37 am
"that glorious language -- the triumph of the vowel over the consonant -- " Durant has not lost his way with words, I see.

Thank you for that trick: one syllable vs many syllables! Even I can remember that. Still cant remember whether the rich were with the Pope or the Emperor?

robert b. iadeluca
December 5, 2006 - 08:10 am
My guess is that the pope was surrounded by rich people and the emperor was surrounded by rich people leaving the rest of the peons just struggling to put bread on the table and not really caring who "won."

Robby

Traude S
December 5, 2006 - 08:47 am
In #5 ROBBY linked more information about the Guelfs and Ghibellines with particular reference to the city of Florence, which summarizes it thusly:
"Guelfs, representing the middle classes supported the autonomy of the Communes against the emperor;
Ghibellines, repreenting the nobles, supported the emperor."


The link omits he significant fact that the Guelfs/Guelphs supported the papacy. It followed quite logically because Bavaria has always been a passionately Catholic region; Swabia was not.

The middle classes were undoubtedly wealthy, but might not the nobles have been equally well off by virtue eof their land holdings ?

There is a much longer elaboration under


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guelphs_and_Ghibellines

winsum
December 5, 2006 - 11:12 am
the Durants do seem to have a preference for princes and politics. I understand that robby is reading page by page and sharing with us as he goes. we can listen to whatever interests us. I'm into the art myself so will lurk or listen as that may be or just skip what doesn't interest me.

the rest of you enjoy this unusual opportunity to read along with robby. claire

kiwi lady
December 5, 2006 - 01:14 pm
I suspect should the poet have had his way with the lovely Laura there would not have been so many poems written. He may have had his illusions shattered. The passion he had for Laura I believe was fuelled by the impossibility of his passion ever coming to any fruition.

robert b. iadeluca
December 5, 2006 - 01:25 pm
Isn't there something sad about that, Carolyn? So the moral of the story is -- the more the women of the world say "no," the greater will be the poetry, paintings, and sculpture. Could that be another interpretation of the "starving artist?"

Robby

kiwi lady
December 5, 2006 - 01:54 pm
I agree Robby. There is no romance in relationships any more. Young people today are starving for romance in their lives because too much emphasis is placed on the physical side of a relationship. It means no more than eating a burger. I don't think this sort of interaction satisfies the soul.

gaj
December 5, 2006 - 07:52 pm
Could the poet have been 'in love with love'? I think of the young man in My Fair Lady who sings 'On the Street Where She Lives'. The posturing of love? Can't you just see him on the street where Laura lived?

kiwi lady
December 5, 2006 - 08:34 pm
I think back to my high school days where we worshipped certain boys from afar. When one of them asked me out I declined. I think you can be in love with the idea of love.

GingerWright
December 5, 2006 - 09:49 pm
Lavender Blue

I could not find on the street where you live (the one we know)

Pat H
December 5, 2006 - 11:36 pm
The triumph of the vowel over the consonant is good for poetry, too. Dante wrote in "terza rima", in which you have groups of 3 lines, with interlocking rhymes: aba bcb cdc ded, etc. This is easy to do in Italian, because rhymes are so easy to find, but it gives translators fits. If they keep the rhyme scheme, they have to sweat to get the meaning right and the language natural, and if they don't, it doesn't sound like Dante.

Terza Rima

Pat H
December 6, 2006 - 12:18 am
Robby, I agree that both sides must have been "haves", though their wealth came from different sources.

JoanK
December 6, 2006 - 01:23 am
GINGEE: I had no idea that song was so old. My parents used to have a record of Burl Ives singing it. I assume it's one of the folk songs that travelled from England to America with immigrants.

Durant briefly mentions that there was a second pope in France. This was the time of the schism in the Catholic Church, when some followed the pope in Rome, and some the one in France. I'm sure Durant will get more into that later. The politics don't get any less confusing as we go along.

JoanK
December 6, 2006 - 01:31 am
New participants: it takes awhile to get used to Durant's organization. The key is the quote in the heading:

""Four elements constitute Civilization -- economic provision, political organization, moral traditions, and the pursuit of knowledge and the arts. "

The Durants will take a period, cover one of those elements (starting with political organization), then go back over the period three times, covering each of the others. It can be confusing, but when you're finished, you have a total picture of that period.

Given the scope of what they are trying to do, there is no organization they could have picked that wouldn't have some problems. We are always going to find some parts of it more to our interests than others. But stick with it. When it's less interesting, it moves faster, since Robby varies his pace with interest.

robert b. iadeluca
December 6, 2006 - 04:26 am
Naples and Boccaccio

robert b. iadeluca
December 6, 2006 - 04:44 am
"At Vaucluse Patrarch began the poem by which he aspired to rival Virgil -- an epic, Africa, on the liberation of Italy through the victory of Scipio Africanus over Hannibal.

"Like the humanists of a century after him, he chose Latin as his medium, not, like Dante, Italian. He wished to be understood by the whole literate Western world.

"As the poem progressed he became more and more doubtful of its merit. He never completed it, never published it. While he was absorbed in Latin hexamaeters his Italian Canzoniere was spreading his fame through Italy and a translation carred his name through France.

"In 1340 -- not without some sly manipulation on his part -- two invitations reached him, one from the Roman Senate, the other from the University of Paris, to come and receive at their hands the poet's laurel crown.

"He accepted the Senate's offer, and the suggestion of Robert the Wise that he should stop at Naples on the way.

"After the overthrow of Frederick II and the Hohenstaufens by the arms and diplomacy of the popes, his Regno -- Italy south of the Papal States -- had been given to the house of Anjou in the person of Charles, Count of Provence.

"Charles ruled as King of Naples and Sicily. His son Charles II lost Sicily to the house of Aragon. His grandson Robert, though failing in his war to recapture Sicily, earned his cognomen by competent government, wise diplomacy, and a discriminating patronage of literature and art.

"The Kingdom was poor in industry and its agriculture was dominated by myopic landowners who, as now, exploited the peasaantry to the edge of revolution. But the commerce of Naples gave the court an income that made the royal Castel Nuovo ring with frequent festivities.

"The well-to-do imitated the court. Marriages became ruinous ceremonies. Periodic regattas animated the historic bay. And in the city square young blades jousted in perilous tournaments while their garlanded ladies smiled upon them from bannered balconies. Life was pleasant in Naples and morals were comfortably loose. Women were beautiful and accessible. Poets found in this atmosphere of amorous dalliance many a theme and stimulus for their verse.

"In Naples Boccaccio was formed."

Sounds like the Naples of today's love songs.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 6, 2006 - 04:51 am
Learn more about NAPLES, the home of my grandparents and that of millions of Italians who came to America.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 6, 2006 - 05:32 am
Here are the lyrics of O SOLE MIO. You all know the melody. Try out your Italian.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 6, 2006 - 05:39 am
How about FUNICULI FUNICULA? Take your choice - English or Italian. Are you feeling Neapolitan yet? Do you see yourself as part of a 14th century group out in the street with "young blades jousting in tournaments" and "garlanded ladies on balconies smiling upon them?" How good is your imagination?

Robby

hats
December 6, 2006 - 05:52 am
Hannibal

I didn't know about Hannibal's defeat in Italy. What started the war between Italy and Africa? What happened to Africa after Hannibal's defeat?

JoanK thank you for the encouragement.

hats
December 6, 2006 - 06:01 am
Hannibal

robert b. iadeluca
December 6, 2006 - 06:44 am
Here is a photo of the Castel Nuovo plus other details and photos of NAPLES.

Robby

BaBi
December 6, 2006 - 06:48 am
(Smile) ROBERT, how apt, to use music to catch the 'feel' of a region. I let the melodies of "O Sole Mio" and "Funiculi,Funicula" run through my mind, and I immediately felt warm, happy, sunny and Neapolitan!

Babi

hats
December 6, 2006 - 06:50 am
Naples is beautiful! Robby, thank you for the link. This is from the article posted by Robby.

"In addition to the 13th and the 14th centuries, which generated a high level of artistic activity, the Baroque period (17th and 18th centuries) was the most prolific moment for Neapolitan art, architecture, painting and music, all of which achieved new, dynamic forms of expression."

Bubble
December 6, 2006 - 07:06 am
The Italian version of Funniculi is totally different from the English. Why can't they do an exact translation?

The funicular of course is a railway up the side of a mountain pulled by a moving cable and having counterbalancing ascending and descending cars [syn: cable railway, funicular railway]

The Napolitan language is different from Italian and not as easily comprehensible for non-locals.

Pat H
December 6, 2006 - 07:48 am
Funiculi Funicula was one of the songs we used to sing (in English) at family songfests around the piano. The book we used (Fireside Book of Folk Songs, Margaret Boni and Norman Lloyd) says it was composed in 1880 to celebrate the opening of the funicular railway up Mount Vesuvius.

robert b. iadeluca
December 6, 2006 - 07:53 am
Oh, the things we learn in this discussion group! Are you bringing your other SN friends here?

Robby

Pat H
December 6, 2006 - 07:54 am
Another Neapolitan song we used to sing was "Santa Lucia"

Enrico Caruso sings Santa Lucia

hats
December 6, 2006 - 07:56 am
Very beautiful! I will listen more than once. I remember seeing Sophia Loren in a movie with the word "Naples" in it. I can't remember the exact name of the movie. I really enjoyed the movie.

MrsSherlock
December 6, 2006 - 08:00 am
Those glorious songs sent me back in memory to my junior high days where we sang them. Made me smile and nod my head in time to the music playing in my head. Wish I could be in Naples.

Bubble
December 6, 2006 - 08:04 am
I remember another very famous one: Come Back To Sorrento

Sunlight dances on the sea
Tender thoughts occur to me
I have often seen your eyes
In the nighttime when i dream

When i pass a garden fair
And the scent is in the air
In my mind a dream awakes
And my heart begins to break

But you said goodbye to me
Now all i can do is grieve
Can it be that you forgot?
Darling forget me not!

Please don't say farewell
And leave this heart that's broken
Come back to Sorrento
So i can mend
-------------------------------

Come Back To Sorrento lyrics

Artist - Dean Martin
Album - Italian Love Songs


Come Back To Sorrento

Guarda il mare com'e bello!
Spira tanto sentimento.
Come il tuo soave accento, che me desto fa sognar.
Senti come illeve salle, dai giardini odor d'aranci,
Un perfumo non v'ha eguale per chi palpita d'amore.
E tu dicro parto addio,
T'allontani dal mio core, questa terra del amore,
hai la forza di lasciar.
Ma non mi fuggir, non dar mi piu tormento,
torna a Sorrento non farmi morir

Smiling leave I saw you taking
All that once you loved forsaken
and I felt my heart was breaking,
Oh how could you go away


Ma non mi fuggir, non dar mi piu tormento,
torna a Sorrento non farmi morir

hats
December 6, 2006 - 08:05 am
I remember "O Sole Mio."

O Sole Mio

robert b. iadeluca
December 6, 2006 - 08:17 am
And of course we all remember Dean Martin ---

In Napoli where love is king
When boy meets girl here's what they say



When the moon hits you eye like a big pizza pie
That's amore
When the world seems to shine like you've had too much wine
That's amore
Bells will ring ting-a-ling-a-ling, ting-a-ling-a-ling
And you'll sing "Vita bella"
Hearts will play tippy-tippy-tay, tippy-tippy-tay
Like a gay tarantella

When the stars make you drool just like a pasta fazool
That's amore
When you dance down the street with a cloud at your feet
You're in love
When you walk down in a dream but you know you're not
Dreaming signore
Scuzza me, but you see, back in old Napoli
That's amore

(When the moon hits you eye like a big pizza pie
That's amore
When the world seems to shine like you've had too much wine
That's amore
Bells will ring ting-a-ling-a-ling, ting-a-ling-a-ling
And you'll sing "Vita bella"
Hearts will play tippy-tippy-tay, tippy-tippy-tay
Like a gay tarantella

When the stars make you drool just like a pasta fazool
That's amore
(When you dance down the street with a cloud at your feet
You're in love
When you walk down in a dream but you know you're not
Dreaming signore
Scuzza me, but you see, back in old Napoli
That's amore
Lucky fella

When the stars make you drool just like a pasta fazool
That's amore
(When you dance down the street with a cloud at your feet
You're in love
When you walk down in a dream but you know you're not
Dreaming signore
Scuzza me, but you see, back in old Napoli) That's amore,
That's amore

hats
December 6, 2006 - 08:24 am
Oh yes! Dean Martin with that dark black hair, terribly handsome. He had a wonderful voice. I remember his show on tv. He and Sammy Davis Jr. ran around together with Frank Sinatra too, if my memory is correct.

robert b. iadeluca
December 6, 2006 - 11:23 am
We are now all well acquainted with Naples and its reputation for amore and are thoroughly Neapolitan. Let us, then, return to Durant and ask him to tell us what was going on there in the 14th century.

"In Naples Boccaccio was formed.

"Giovanni had begun life in Paris as the unpremeditated result of an entente cordiale between his father, a Florentine merchant, and a French lass of doubtful name and morals. Perhaps his bastard birth and half-French origin shared in determining his character and history.

"He was brought in infancy to Certaldo near Florence and suffered an unhappy childhood under a stepmother.

"At the age of ten he was sent to Naples where he was apprenticed to a career of finance and trade. He learned to hate business as Petrarch hated law. He announced his preference for poverty and poetry, lost his soul to Ovid, feasted on the Metamorphoses and the Heroides, and learned by heart most of the Ars amandi, wherein, he wrote, 'the greatest of poets shows how the sacred fire of Venus may be made to burn in the coldest' breast.

"The father, unable to make him love money more than beauty, allowed him to quit business on condition that he study canon law.

"Boccaccio agreed but he was ripe for romance.

"The gayest lady in Naples was Maria d'Aquino.

"She was the natural daughter of King Robert the Wise but her mother's husband accepted her as his own child. She was educated in a convent and was married at fifteen to the Count of Aquino but found him inadequate to her needs. She encouraged a succession of lovers to supply his deficiencies and to spend their substance upon her finery.

"Boccaccio first saw her at Mass on Holy Saturday four Easters after Petrarch's discovery of Laura under similarly sacred auspices. She seemed to him fairer than Aphrodite. The world held nothing lovelier than her blonde hair, nothing more alluring than her roguish eyes. He called her Fiammetta -- Little Flame -- and longed to singe himself in her fire.

"He forgot canon law, forgot all the commandments he had ever learned. For months he thought only of how he might be near her. He went to church solely in the hope that she might appear. He paced the street before her window. He went to Baise on hearing that she was there.

"For five years he pursued her. She let him wait until other purses were empty. Then she allowed him to persuade her. A year of costly assignations dulled the edge of adultery. She complained that he looked at other women. Besides, his funds ran out.

"The Little Flame sought other food and Boccaccio retired to poetry."

Once again we can enjoy Durant's style of writing. I can just see him with a sly grin on his face as he tells of Maria finding her husband "inadequate to her needs" and locating others who "supplied his deficiences." And how Boccaccio longed to "singe himself" in her "little fire." I would guess he was not (and is not) the only man who regularly attended church in order to meet a woman "under sacred auspices" and then "forgot the commandments." Finally, Durant tells us, his empty wallet "dulled the edge of adultery."

Once again we realize there there is nothing new under the sun. Anyone ready to take a cruise to Naples?

Robby

Bubble
December 6, 2006 - 11:44 am
Boccaccio's situation would be seen as commonplace was it not for the flamboyant description by Durant.

He wrote about Dante's life but his most famous work is the licentious Decameron with its hundred tales. It was even made into a film in the early 70s.

Pat H
December 6, 2006 - 12:37 pm
So Petrarch and Boccaccio came to write their great works by parallel but opposite paths. They both hated their studies, wanted to write, and fell violently in love.

Boccaccio "got the girl", after long pursuit, found she wasn't worth it, was thrown over, and turned to his writing.

Petrarch didn't get the girl, in fact it looks like he didn't actively pursue her, but worshipped her from afar, and wrote his sonnets to express his unrequited longing.

But they both first saw their loves in church.

mabel1015j
December 6, 2006 - 12:55 pm
"Once again we can enjoy Durant's style of writing. I can just see him with a sly grin on his face as he tells of Maria finding her husband "inadequate to her needs" and locating others who "supplied his deficiences." And how Boccaccio longed to "singe himself" in her "little fire." I would guess he was not (and is not) the only man who regularly attended church in order to meet a woman "under sacred auspices" and then "forgot the commandments." Finally, Durant tells us, his empty wallet "dulled the edge of adultery."

Once again we realize there there is nothing new under the sun."

I had exactly the same tho'ts as i read the Durant page: loved the writing; going to church to see that special person - interest returned, or not, experienced so many times in the teen years; and there IS nothing new under the sun. That universal concept is one of my favorite things about learning and teaching history - finding that out over and over again, not just literally time after time, but the world over.........jean

winsum
December 6, 2006 - 01:36 pm
lots of it from the operas. Mom sang and so did I. Italian is easy to sing it flows. . .aria from Aida etc. so in my mind I hear my mom singing and my poor attempts as well. . . . I have a book full of Italian pop of this period. . .the twentieth century somewhere.

singers have to sing in several languages. It makes for good pronunciation in the linkages. However I don't get the happy sunny feeling you mention from most of it. claire

winsum
December 6, 2006 - 01:48 pm
When my father was a captain toward the end of world war one he and his fellows visited the mediterrenian coastal area where they were feited and made much of. After which he eventually moved his family to southern california and this map of the amlfi coast could almost be one of Santa Monica bay where I grew up with Catalina island and San Clement Island off shore and the santa monica mountains to the north and san pedro area to the south. Note the names as well. A major streat is AMALFI in the Pacific Palisades.

Amalfie coastal map

feels just like home to me. . . .

This is home Santa Monica Bay

robert b. iadeluca
December 6, 2006 - 05:33 pm
Any further reactions to Durant's comments in Post 147?

Robby

Justin
December 6, 2006 - 05:53 pm
It is nice to think of Napoli as home to romance but the city also exhibits the residuals of romance. It's odors are incredible and washlines flying diapers are or were everywhere. It's museums are dirty and the works uncared for. Thieves fill it's streets.

Near by lie Herculaneum and other ancient cities retrieved from the mud and debris of the volcanic action of Vesuvious in 70 CE. Even then the area was devoted to the love business.The rites of elusynium were practiced and celebrated in mosaic images on the walls of houses in these ancient cities.

Off shore one encounters Capri and Ischia,islands of incomparable beauty. Roman Emperors made these Islands a home away from Rome. Do not miss the grottoes if you visit the area.

Friends, who were in the Italian Campaign, tell me that Naples lived up to it's reputation in WW11. Baby Ruth and Milky Way were coin of the realm and love was everywhere. Ten thousand themes played out under the roof of the Galleria.

Éloïse De Pelteau
December 6, 2006 - 06:13 pm
Sorry, but I don't like Durant's style in post 147, this time he writes about Boccacio's love affair like if he was writing an instruction manual on how to start a business. It's not at all how he wrote about Petrarch where his paragraphs were so lyrical. It seems to me he was in a hurry to finish this off and write about something more fun like war, for instance.

Before I die, I want to go to the Amalfi Coast. It's better than Switzerland and the Cote D'Azur in France as far as the view is concerned, no wonder people fought about this little piece of paradise.

"Click here to see views from Hotel Onda Verde Even if we have seen it before, this one is a virtual tour accompanied with a tenor singing O Sole Mio.

Pat H
December 6, 2006 - 06:39 pm
Maria's plight with her husband reminds me of Machiavelli's "Mandragora", which I read 2 decades ago. I'll look up my copy when we get closer to that time. Anyway, the result was: look for compensation elsewhere.

gaj
December 6, 2006 - 10:45 pm
Can't you see Petrarch singing this of his Laura?

http://www.stlyrics.com/lyrics/myfairlady/onthestreetwhereyoulive.htm

Justin
December 6, 2006 - 11:52 pm
Eloise: Thanks for the memories.

3kings
December 7, 2006 - 01:26 am
"Giovanni had begun life in Paris as the unpremeditated result of an entente cordiale between his father, a Florentine merchant, and a French lass of doubtful name and morals. Perhaps his bastard birth and half-French origin shared in determining his character and history".

Wonder why Durant sees fit to describe the father as "A Florentine merchant". presumably a man of importance and wealth, and thus of good character, while the unfortunate girl is just a lass of "doubtful name and morals."?

Presumably, tomboy Arial, was not present the day Will penned those words. ++ Trevor

robert b. iadeluca
December 7, 2006 - 04:27 am
The Poet Laureate

robert b. iadeluca
December 7, 2006 - 04:44 am
Early in 1341 Boccaccio abandoned Naples for Florence. Two months later Petrarch arrived at King Robert's court. He basked awhile in the royal shade and then went on to seek a crown in Rome.

"It was a pitiful capital of the world.

"The papacy having moved to Avignon in 1309, no economic means remained of supporting even such moderate splendor as the city had known in the thirteenth century. The wealth that had trickled from a thousand bishoprics into streams from a dozen states no longer flowed into Rome. No foreign embassies kept palaces there.

"Rare was the cardinal who showed his face amid the ruins of the Empire and the Church. Christian shrines rivaled classic colonnades in dilapidation. Shepherds grazed their flocks on the slopes of the seven hills. Beggars roamed the streets and highwaymen lurked along the roads. wives were abducted, nuns were raped, pilgrims were robbed. Every man carried arms.

"The old aristocratic familes -- Colonna, Orsini, Savelli, Annibaldi, Gaetani, Frangipani -- contested with violence and intrigue for political mastery in the oligarchic Senate tht ruled Rome.

"The middle classes were small and weak. The motley masses, mingled of a score of peoples, lived in a poverty too stupefying to generate self government.

"The hold of the absent papacy upon the city was reduced to the theoretical authority of a legate, who was ignored.

"Amid the chaos and penury the mutilated remains of a proud antiquity nourished the visions of scholars and the dreams of patriots.

"Some day, the Romans believed, Rome would again be the spiritual and political capital of the world and the barbarians beyond the Alps would send imperial tribute as well as Peter's pence. Here and there men could still spare a pittance for art. Pietro Cavalini adorned Santa Maria in Trastevere with remarkable mosaics and in Santa Cecilia he inaugurated a Roman school of fresco painting almost as important as Cuccio's in Siena or Giotto's in Florence. Even in Rome's destitution poets sang, forgetting the present for the past.

"After Padua and Prato had restored Domitian's rite of placing a laurel wreath upon the brow of a favorite bard, the Senate thought it befitting the traditional primacy of Rome to crown the man who by universal consent was the leading poet of his nation and his time."

Can a city which is dying be brought back to life, not by political leaders, but by scholars and artists? Can dreams come true?

Robby

MrsSherlock
December 7, 2006 - 06:44 am
Golly. What a thought. Art as the stimulus for social change? Preposterous.

Putney
December 7, 2006 - 10:49 am
Preposterous,perhaps..but such a lovely thought !

Scrawler
December 7, 2006 - 11:39 am
I think a "dying" city can be brought back to life as long as there is someone of wealth who will buy the works of the scholars & artists. So out of the chaos there can be sucess but it still takes wealth & power.

winsum
December 7, 2006 - 12:01 pm

BaBi
December 7, 2006 - 12:48 pm
I had to smile at the mention of Boccaccio's Decameron as "licentious". For it's time, I'm sure it was. Anyone reading it today would find it very tame, compared to what is portrayed as common fare daily on TV and in the movies.

All too typically, while Rome is declining and lawlessness is taking over, the 'old aristocratic families' are too busy squabbling with one another for power and precedence to do anything useful for the city. So, Robby, how did 14th century Rome get back on it's feet?

Babi

Fifi le Beau
December 7, 2006 - 01:45 pm
Durant describes Rome as the pitiful capital of the world in the year 1341. The old aristocratic families who ruled Rome in the Senate with violence and intrigue are still there, but the papacy has moved.

He writes "Some day, the Romans believed, Rome would again be the spiritual and political capital of the world and the barbarians beyond the Alps would send imperial tribute as well as Peter's pence.

The papacy did come back to Rome, and those barbarians beyond the Alps came to Rome also. Today Cardinal Ratzinger is Pope Benedict, and Gloria von Thurn und Taxis began to have meetings with the new Pope and the aristocrats. The aristocracy are finding their way back into Vatican circles after they were curtailed by Pope Paul in the 1960's.

The oligarchs and the Pope are once again in concert, after almost fifty years of distance. I don't know the details, but it seems there was a scandal involving banks, aristocrats, and the Vatican in the sixties.

The aristocrats got their titles from the Papal states. They continue to use those titles even though the Papal states are history. They cling to their titles like a drowning man to a life raft.

The only surviving Papal state is in Rome, and it was recently described as the last old-fashioned court, with an absolute ruler on top and a circle of courtiers around him. The Colonnas, Corsini, and Borghese are back where the influence of money and power go hand in hand.

Fifi

winsum
December 7, 2006 - 03:13 pm
so that's the way it works the VATICAN and it's also very rich in property especially in the arts. hmmm a political force for sure. they e ven hold power here when it comes to gays and lesbiens i the clergy etc.

an amusing article in the washington post spoke of the new laws concerning such things in the conservative/reform Jewish movement. T Religion is still a mighty force. we might as well be in the thirteen hundreds today.

Mallylee
December 7, 2006 - 03:21 pm
Pat what fun! I sang along to Caruso.

Mallylee
December 7, 2006 - 03:41 pm
That was lovely Eloise.,And what a gorgeous hotel!

Traude S
December 7, 2006 - 05:26 pm

As Durant's collaborator, his right hand, his main researcher, Ariel was doubtless familiar with all details of this monumental project. Indeed, for all we know, it might have been she who unearthed the titillating tidbits about Bocaccio's relationship with Maria d'Aquino. It is possible to imagine Durant smiling slyly as he carefully formulated le mot juste = just the right word!

For readers who have not followed the discussion of the previous volume it may be helpful to point out that the papacy was in crisis, as has been described. Rome had become a dangerous place, and in 1309 the pope left Rome for exile in Avignon, France, under the protection of King Philip IV The Fair. Thus began the so-called "Babylonian Captivity of the Church".

Six successive popes (sometimes called Antipopes) reigned in Avignon in a magnificent palace in pomp and splendor, very much like secular princes; completely dependent on the French crown. The number of French candidates for the College of Cardinals grew significantly. The popes became servants of the French kings. A German king would persuade the pope to return to Italy in 1377.

robert b. iadeluca
December 7, 2006 - 05:33 pm
Thank you, Traude, for giving us that background.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 7, 2006 - 06:04 pm
"On April, 1341, a colorful procession of youths and senators escorted Petrarch -- clad in the purple robe that King Robert had given him -- to the steps of the Capitol. There a laurel crown was laid upon his head and the aged Senator Stefano Colonna pronounced a eulogy.

"From that day Petrarch had new fame and new enemies. Rivals plucked at his laurels with their pens, but kings and popes gladly received him at their courts.

"Soon Boccaccio would rank him with the 'illustrious ancients.'

"Italy, proud of his renown, proclaimed that Virgil had been born again.

"What sort of man was he at this apex of his curve?

"In his youth he had been handsome and vain of his looks and clothes. In later years he laughed at his once meticulous ritual of toilette and dress and curling of the hair and sqeezing of the feet into fancy shoes. In middle age he grew a bit stout and doubled his chin but his face had still the charm of refinement and animation. He remained vain to the end, merely pluming himself on his achievements instead of his appearance.

"But this is a fault that only the greatest saints can shun. His letters, so fascinating and brilliant, would have been more so without their sham modesty and honest pride.

"Like all of us he relished applause. He longed for fame, for literary 'immortality.' So early, in this presage of the Renaissance, he struck one of its most sustained notes, the thirst for glory. He was a little jealous of his rivals and descended to answer their slurs. He fretted some (although he denied it) at Dante's popularity. He shuddered at Dante's ferocity as Erasmus would at Luther's crudity. But he suspected that there was something in the dour Florentine too deep to be fathomed by a facile pen.

"Himself, now half French in spirit, he was too urbane to curse half the world. He lacked the passion that exalted and exhaused Italy."

"Like all of us he relished applause?"

Robby

bluebird24
December 7, 2006 - 06:14 pm
who is cuccio? can not find him with google:( found cavallini:) who are the 6 popes? German king name? you can write me E-Mail or post here

winsum
December 7, 2006 - 06:21 pm
for a very helpful sumation of what happened to the popes in the thirteen hundreds. I skipped a lot of the AGE OF FAITH and so find all of that very helpful. Were the popes ever referred to a PRINCE's? It seems I've heard that maybe in Dan Browns book which I read without any background and understand it was not accurate. But I enjoyed it very much anyway.

claire

robert b. iadeluca
December 7, 2006 - 06:37 pm
Bluebird:-I would hope that exchanges of information would be by posting, not by email. We don't want to deprive others here of important facts.

Robby

kiwi lady
December 7, 2006 - 07:15 pm
I had forgotten my daughter was an A Student in Art History. She got in the nineties for University Entrance. I showed her this discussion and she was able to tell me quite a bit about the artists and sculptors we have discussed. If she had time she would love to join in but no time unfortunately. Now she is a librarian in an Academic library. She can search for information from sources I have never heard of. She is most useful!

Traude S
December 7, 2006 - 08:36 pm
CLAIRE, nowadays the term "Prince of the Church" is used almost exclusively for Roman Catholic Cardinals. Historically it was used generically for members of the clergy whose offices held the secular rank and privilege of a prince or were considered its equivalent.
Cardinals are always treated in protocol as equivalents of royal princes.

By analogy with secular princes, in the broad sense of the ruler of any principality, it made perfect sense in a feudal class society to regard the highest members of the clergy, mainly prelates, as a privleged class ("estate") similar to the mobility, ranking just below or even above it in the social order; often high clerical ranks, such as bishops, were given high protoloary precedence among the obility, and seats in the highest assemblies, including courts of justice and legislatures, such as the Lord Bishops in the English (later British) House of Lords.

BLUEBIRD, I'll try to either make a list or find a link of the Avignon Popes, if ROBBY allows the detour.

Meanwhile you may enjoy a look at the Palace of the Popes in Avignon. If my attempt at linking is unsuccessful, perhaps someone more technically savvy than I might be kind enough to make it clickable. Thank you.

P.S. I canceled the link which no longer worked. Sorry. But the pictures in the French version are the same. Just let me try it out first.

Traude S
December 7, 2006 - 08:57 pm
Sorry to try your patience.

I found a different reference of the Palace of the Popes in Avignon, in English, which would please the art lovers. Pleae wear with me.
http://www2.art.utah.edu/cathedral/avi_i1.html

winsum
December 7, 2006 - 09:02 pm
Linking is using a code which isn't hard, just cumbersum. as in brackets from the capitalized period to encase the command and I'll use parenthesis instead to keep it from going into html.

(a href="the url in the address slot in quotes") any name (/a)

use any name you want and that will appear as a hot link. be exact. html is fussy.

bestest, Claire

winsum
December 7, 2006 - 09:07 pm
there are a couple of ways to make it smaller. the tiny link program and the link code I showed you.. I like this detail from the Tulles chapel.

the dog . . . what kind I wonder.

go here to use the tiny url

http://tinyurl.com/ claire

EllieC1113
December 7, 2006 - 10:34 pm
I loved the link to the Palace of the Popes at Avignon. It took me back to a tour of various cities in France that I went on in 2005. It was very much like being there again. Amazing what computers can do. Thank you Traude. I am very interested in church history. I also enjoy the concept that Petrarch was half French in spirit. That sounds like me when I was 11 and took an experimental course in early foreign language learning (age 11 was early for NYC). I was intrigued by France and still am. Was an undergraduate French major and taught it for a number of years. I love the food, the literature, all the old churches, etc. Anyway, being half French in spirit can be fun.

Eleanor

PS I will borrow the book for the current period from my library.

Éloïse De Pelteau
December 8, 2006 - 03:08 am
Eleonor, (nice name), being half French is only half the fun of being whole French. Where it is fun is being able to get totally immersed into another culture and notice how differently they react to an idea.

Palais des Papes à Avignon take a tour of the palace and the city.

robert b. iadeluca
December 8, 2006 - 04:41 am
Traude:-A link to a list of the Avignon popes would certainly be apropos.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 8, 2006 - 05:06 am
"Equipped with several ecclesiastical benefices, Petrarch was affluent enough to despise wealth and timid enough to like the literary life.

"Yet he speaks of his 'varying moods which were rarely happy and usually despondent.'

"To be a great writer he had to be sensitive to beauty in form and sound, in nature and woman and man. That is, he had to suffer more than most of us from the noises and deformities of the world. He loved music and played the lute well. He admired fine painting and numbered Simone Martini among his friends.

"Women must have attracted him for at times he spoke of them with almost anchoritic fear. After forty, he assures us, he never touched a woman carnally. He wrote:-'Great must be the powers of both body and mind that may suffice both to literary activity and to a wife.'

"He offered no novel philosophy. He rejected Scholasticism as vain logic-chopping far removed from life. He challenged the infallibility of Aristotle and dared to prefer Plato.

"He went back from Aquinas and Duns Scotus to the Scriptures anbd the Fathers and relished the melodious piety of Augustine and the Stoic Christianity of Ambrose. However, he quoted Cicero and Seneca as reverently as he cited the saints and drew his arguments for Christianity most often from pagan texts.

"He smiled at the discord of philosophers, among whom he found 'no more agreement than among clocks.' He complained::-'Philosophy aims only at hair splitting, subtle distinctions, quibbles of words.' Such a discipline could make clever debaters but hardly wise men. He laughed at the high degree of Master and Doctor with which such studies were crowned and marveled how a ceremony could make a pundit out of a fool.

"Almost in modern terms he rejected astrology, alchemy, demoniac possession, prodigies, auguries, dream prophecies, and the miracles of his time. He had the courage to praise Epicurus in an age when that name was used as a synonym for the atheist.

"Now and then he spoke like a skeptic, professing Cartesian doubt:-'Distrustful of my own faculties, I embrace doubt itself as truth affirming nothing and doubting all things except tghose in which doubt is sacrilege.'"

I'm wondering if he suffered from clinical depression."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 8, 2006 - 05:10 am
Definition of ANCHORITIC as in "anchoritic fear."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 8, 2006 - 05:14 am
Definition of AUGURY.

Robby

winsum
December 8, 2006 - 05:46 am

Traude S
December 8, 2006 - 06:07 am
Good morning.
Here is the link I wanted to send last night. I hope it works this time.
http://www.palais-des-papes.com/anglais/index.html


I checked and it worked ! Am so glad. Just click on the four main items on the green background. Check out the wine cellar ! The accompanying text is excellent, IMHO.

CLAIRE, thank you for your help and hints. Will try to do better next time. Thank you, ROBBY. Will follow up on the list of popes in the afternoon.

Bubble
December 8, 2006 - 06:46 am
List of all the Popes.

http://www.stuardtclarkesrome.com/pontiffs.html

The Avignon 6 Popes list starts on # 195

http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/society/A0839708.html

scroll to The Great Schism, 1378–1417

JoanK
December 8, 2006 - 08:06 am
For a good, (skeptical and rather cynical) description of the papacy at Avignon, the great schism, and France at that time, I highly recommend Barbara Tuchman's book "A Distant Mirror," a history of France of the period. Durant will doubtless tell us more about it when he moves to France. But who knows when that will be --- there is so much going on in Italy at the time. Unlike The Age of Faith, there is so much going on in this period, it's difficult to stick to one topic, and not go jumping around like a kid in a candy store.

JoanK
December 8, 2006 - 08:19 am
PAT: boy, that Caruso recording sent me back to our childhood. Remember whirling around the livingroom to it?

And TRUEDE, the tour of the Amalfi coast to "O Solo Mio" was great. I still remember riding along that cliff road as one of the most beautiful, and terrifying trips I've ever taken. The road is narrow, and cut into the side of the cliff, with nothing, not even a guardrail, between you and falling. Italian drivers apparently consider it a point of honor to drive it at full speed, not paying much attention to which side of the road they're on as they go around blind corners. (ROBBY, I'm half Italian, like you, but I got my driving style from my timid, Waspy mother). Dick and I aged 10 years, before we got to the end, but it was worth it.

For a view of this, there is an old movie, sometimes shown on PBS, where Cary Grant does this drive in an open convertible. But I can't remember the name.

Rich7
December 8, 2006 - 08:36 am
With Grace Kelley? To Catch a Thief?

Rich

Rich7
December 8, 2006 - 10:36 am
On the subject of films; just heard a review on NPR of Mel Gibson's new film "Apolyptico" about the decline and fall of the Mayan civilization.

The film supposedly begins with a display of the following quote:

"A great civilization is not conquered from without until it has destroyed itself within."---Will Durant

Rich

3kings
December 8, 2006 - 04:12 pm
'Philosophy aims only at hair splitting, subtle distinctions, quibbles of words.' Such a discipline could make clever debaters but hardly wise men. He laughed at the high degree of Master and Doctor with which such studies were crowned and marveled how a ceremony could make a pundit out of a fool. Durant's description of Petrarch.

So, he was a man who did not take kindly to those he he considered the 'stuffed shirts' of his time. Clearly, an individualist, and not a team player. === Trevor

bluebird24
December 8, 2006 - 05:34 pm
love the Palace webpage:)

Traude S
December 8, 2006 - 06:52 pm
Sorry to be late.
BUBBLE, thank you for providing the list of popes who reigned in Avignon, aka in Italy as 'Avignone, l'altra Roma'.
I was at a Christmas meeting of church women, which took longer than I had anticipated.

Traude S
December 8, 2006 - 07:28 pm
Clearly, Durant is much taken with Petrarch; how the Great Man looked; dressed; how age changed his appearance.
But don't all human beings remain essentially the same - indeed, often become more so - regarding their likes, dislikes, habits, virtues and vices?

"We all relish applause", says Durant.
With respect, I believe this is a generalization, and the statement certainly does not apply to me. While I agree that most of us strive (and hope) for acceptance and approval, I've never had the burning desire to stand in the limelight, sought applause or expected it.
Also, I am not sure we really can, after centuries, assume (or "suspect") how anyone felt.

winsum
December 8, 2006 - 09:12 pm
so Ddurant relishes applause. I find it embarrassing. I'm used to it now but I cringed when I saw my name in print in the paper a couple of times in connection with something I was doing. Here it gets used all the time and doesn't bother me anymore. I don't even bother to capitalize the C. claire

EllieC1113
December 8, 2006 - 09:23 pm
From what I know, Saint Augustine also tried to reconcile Faith and the philosophical views of the classical Greeks. I believe that this is a core dilemma faced in every age. We still face these issues today. Even though there are numerous people who are dedicated to science, and who study it in depth, there is still the unknown, and the limitations of the human brain in uderstanding natural phenomena. I believe in both as separate parts of an enlightened life. The scientists have made enormous contributions to the betterment of our lives. I think about recent technological developments with amazement. I remember doing calculations on a desktop computer called the Olivetti-Underwood Programma 101. I also remember a large wall up at a research center which I visited, covered with massive equipment for the IBM 1130, also an early computer. Science and technology are important, and they are centered around skepticism. I read peer-reviewed journals skeptically. Lies sometimes appear, despite highly-reputed boards of experts.

Faith was so far more central during the Renaissance. My daughter, a budding legal historian, has just told me that the more current term, depending on the country is "Early Modern" although Renaissance is still appropriate for Italy. She recommended to me to read something by Burkhardt who, I think, may have invented the term Ranaissance, applying it to art history. I still need to start and finish Battle Cry of Freedom, so that I will overcome "knowing nothing about the Civil War." That is her period (actually the Reconstruction). I have loads of books that I want to read. I may make a New Year's resolution to read one a month, but I am still working full-time, running my own business.

Back to the reading, I admire Petrarch for his intellectual honesty and his courage in questioning the accepted wisdom of his time. It must have been difficult to avoid censure by the powers that be. On the other hand, I also think that a strong spiritual life can be very beneficial to many human beings. I find it fosters my creativity.

Thank you Robby for posting the current readings.

Eleanor

Justin
December 8, 2006 - 10:58 pm
Petrach after forty, refrained from carnal experiences with women. He dried up like an old peach with varying moods,little happiness,some despondency and Robby thinks he may be clinically depressed. Is that a way to be a great writer? Ezra Pound had similar problems and yet he produced great literature. Hermann Hesse writes as a man depressed yet he produces quality stuff.

kiwi lady
December 8, 2006 - 11:23 pm
Justin many writers of our times have problems with depression. I know there are artists and musicians that struggle with "the black dog" too.I know several very creative people who suffer bouts of clinical depression. The ones I know are bi polar. They work while they are on a high and don't when they are depressed. The highs seem to be when they are at their most creative.

winsum
December 8, 2006 - 11:29 pm
I couldn't disagree more about this "I also think that a strong spiritual life can be very beneficial to many human beings. I find it fosters my creativity. "

but the rules won't let me talk about it... we're only allowed to express our religious preference once . . . vbg . . . Claire

robert b. iadeluca
December 9, 2006 - 06:57 am
"The election of a new pope, Clement VI made it advisable for Petrarch to return to Avignon and present his compliments and expectations.

"Following the precedent of awarding some benefices -- i.e. the income from ecclesiastical properties -- for the support of writers and artists, Clement gave the poet a priorate near Pisa and in 1346 made him a canon of Parma.

"In 1343 he sent him on a mission to Naples and there Petrarch met one of the most unruly rulers of the age.

"Robert the Wise had just died and his granddaughter Joanna I had inherited his throne and dominions, including Provence and therefore Avignon. To pleas her father she had married her cousin Andrew, son of the king of Hungary. Andrew thought he should be king as well s consort. Joanna's lover, Louis of Taranto, slew him and married the Queen.

"Andrew's brother, Louis, succeeding to the throne of Hungary, marched his army into Italy and took Naples. Joanna fled to Avignon and sold that city to the papacy for 80,000 florins ($2,000,000). Clement declared her innocent, sanctioned her marrige, and ordered the invader back to Hungary. King Louis ignored the order but the Black Death so withered his army that he was compelled to withdraw. Joanna regained her throne and ruled in splendor and vice until deposed by Pope Urban VI.

"A year later she was captured by Charles, Duke of Durazzo and in 1382 she was put to death.

Talk about intrigue!

Robby

BaBi
December 9, 2006 - 07:47 am
I have to agree with Traude and Winsum. I can recall more than one occasion when I embarrassed my father or a teacher by playing dumb when they were trying to 'show me off'. I cringed at 'showing off and never liked the limelight.

ELLIE said: "Saint Augustine also tried to reconcile Faith and the philosophical views of the classical Greeks. I believe that this is a core dilemma faced in every age." I have to wonder why we necessarily need to reconcile faith with the philosophical views of the classical Greeks. While I recognize and admire the openness and scope of their thought, they were obviously not always correct. I tried three times to read Plato's "Republic", and always bogged down at the same point, where it didn't make sense to me. After the third try, I decided that it really didn't make sense!

KIWI, I believe there is indeed a relationship between the manic phase of bipolar depression and creativity. It is my understanding that creative people often stop their medication because 'calm' state it brings about is a barrier to expressing the art that is so important to them. A 'Hobbes choice' if there ever was one.

On Joanna and Pope Clement, one has to suspect that his finding Joanna innocent and sanctioning her marriage has more to do with her selling him Avignon than the regularity of her activities. And King Louis army being decimated by the Black Death is downright Biblical.

Fascinating era! Babi

Scrawler
December 9, 2006 - 09:44 am
I think most people, at some time or the other, search for approval, but I also believe that not every body wants to be in the limelight.

Why do you think that 'P' was clinically depressed and what connection does this have to do with his creativity?

winsum
December 9, 2006 - 10:36 am
I feel driven for about an hour or MANIC. is this what he means. that some artists feel this way all the time and alternately they feel very down? it may be connected to creativity. It is exciting and exhausting in the manic phase.

I don't experience the deep downs though and am not bi-polar.

But I can imagine the loss if medication has a flattening of this affect.

Claire

robert b. iadeluca
December 9, 2006 - 11:00 am
Any further comments about Durant's remarks in Post 204?

Robby

Justin
December 9, 2006 - 03:29 pm
I agree. The adventures of Joanna are of Biblical proportions. The Black death comes like locusts to destroy a pursuing army while she purrs the Pope to give her a kingdom in exchange for a new papal residence in France. That is history writ large.

Justin
December 9, 2006 - 03:51 pm
Claire; Why are you reluctant to deal with comments you do not agree with? There are no rules against response. Ellie is on sound ground when she says "a strong spirirtual life can be beneficial to many human beings." You have to admit there are folks who feel more secure in the world knowing there is a spiritual presence to guide them. I think that is almost a given. Some question, however, should be raised about the power of spirituality to foster creativity. I don't doubt that Ellie's creativity is enhanced by spiritual benefits but I doubt whether many others would find that the case. There is something repressive about spirituality that tends to inhibit creativity. I think it would be more of a blockage to free thought which is so necessary to creativity.

robert b. iadeluca
December 9, 2006 - 04:17 pm
And might we agree that spirituality and religiosity are not synonymous although they might have a relationship?

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
December 9, 2006 - 05:00 pm
How could Michelangelo have created THIS if he had not been spiritually inspired Justin? What about all the other artists of his day. Why did he sculpt his David? To me spirituality/religion is invaluable in creativity. We are still enjoying their artwork and grateful for what inspired them.

bluebird24
December 9, 2006 - 05:38 pm
Robby Michelangelo did paint people from a bible. beautiful colors in the creation of adam:) thank you for the picture!

Traude S
December 9, 2006 - 06:31 pm
With due respect to Durant, there was more to Joanna. She and Andrew of Hungary were betrothed as children. At the death of her grandfather she was 16 and the trouble began.


http://www.answers.com/topic/joan-i-naples

robert b. iadeluca
December 9, 2006 - 06:32 pm
"Verona, in Petrarch's time, might have been classed among the major powers of Italy.

"Proud of her antiquity and her Roman theater (where one may still, of a summer evening, hear opera under the stars), enriched by the trade that came over the Alps and down the Adige, Verona rose under the Scala family to a height where she threatened the commercial supremacy of Venice.

"After the death of the terrible Ezzelino, the commune chose Mastino della Scala as podesta. Mastino was assassinated in due course but his brother and successor Alberto firmly establihsed the rule of the Scaligeri ("ladder beaers") from the apt emblem of a climbing family and inaugurated the heyday of Verona's history.

"During his reign the Dominicans began to build the lovely church of Sant' Anastasia. An obscure copyist unearthed the lost poems of Carullus, Verona's most famous son.

"The Guelf family of the Capellerri fought the Ghibelline family of the Montechi, never dreaming that they would become Shakespeare's Capulets and Montagues. The strongest and not the least noble of the Scala 'despots' was Can Grande della Scala, who made his court an asylum for exiled Ghibellines and a haven for poets and scholars. There Dante for several years indignantly climbed the shaky steairs of patronage. But Can Grande brought Vicenza, Padua, Treviso, Belluno, Feltre, and Cividale under his power.

"Venice saw herself threatened with a strangling encirclement. When Can Grande was succeeded by the less ardent Mastino II she declared war, brought in Florence and Milan as her allies, and forced Verona to surrender all but one of the conquered towns. Can Grande II built the majestic Scaligero Bridge over the Adige with an arch whose span of 160 feet was then the largest in the world.

"He was assassinated by his brother Consignorio who followed this fratricide with a wise and beneficent rule, and built the most ornate of the famous tombs of the Scaligers.

"His sons divided the throne and quarreled to the death. In 1387 Verona and Ficenza were absorbed into the duchy of Milan.

And so the fictional play by Shakespeare was based on a a true story.

Robby

Traude S
December 9, 2006 - 07:09 pm
Unfortunately, the link in my # 214 did not work. Sorry.
Venice had every reason to be concerned about Can Grande. After he already had Feltre and Treviso inter alia brought into his power.
It is stupefying to imagine that each of the towns mentioned, both large and small, were independent entities; ones loyal to the Guelphs, the others to the Ghibellines, hence the interminable, internecine back-and-forth and bloodshed that lasted for centuries.

Each and every city-state has its own, complex history: Florence; Vicenza; Verona; Pisa etc, etc., not only in Tuscany, in Umbria or in the Veneto, but in other Italian regions as well.
Even in this volume, war and power struggles are inescapable. I find that rather sad.

Fifi le Beau
December 9, 2006 - 08:08 pm
Michelangelo sculpted David because he was asked to do so by the Guild responsible for the decoration of the church. It was a job to him and he did not pick the subject, they did. His benefactor and contractor was the church, and a driven artist works with what he is offered.

His first large sculpture done on his own was not religious but the pagan Bacchus, leader of song, dance, drink, and orgy.

Here is a short poem written about his work on the ceiling of the Sistine chapel.

This comes from dangling from the ceiling– I'm goitered like a Lombard cat (or wherever else their throats grow fat)–
it's my belly that's beyond concealing, it hands beneath my chin like peeling. My beard points skyward, I seem a bat upon its back, I've breasts and splat! On my face the paint's congealing.


Loins concertina'd in my gut, I drop an arse as counterweight and move without the help of eyes.

Like a skinned martyr I abut on air, and, wrinkled, show my fat. Bow-like, I strain toward the skies.

No wonder then I size things crookedly; I'm on all fours. Bent blowpipes send their darts off-course.

Defend my labor's cause, good Giovanni, from all strictures: I live in hell and paint its pictures.

Michelangelo Buonarroti


Fifi

EllieC1113
December 9, 2006 - 09:06 pm
I enjoyed reading the most recent text from the book. Violence as a means of resolving or escalating conflicts is so central to human history. Whoever wins the battle has the privilege of writing the history from his perspective.

Eleanor

winsum
December 9, 2006 - 10:06 pm
the power of spirituality to foster creativity

Your comment. Creativity is my middle name it's what I'm all about and i spirituality is another thing entirely. There are many artists who were not only spiritual but religious. I don't think you can generalize as to whether it inhibits creativity. I think it only DIRECTS it.

Claire

EllieC1113
December 9, 2006 - 10:29 pm
Claire, I agree with the idea that spirituality, if one finds that a useful dimension in one's life, will often provide direction for one's creative endeavors. Some of my favorite creative artists have a strong spiritual dimension. My favorite writer is Thomas Merton, who had spirituality as the central core in his life and work. I also like the films of Franco Zeffirelli, who has a strong sense of the spiritual in some of his works. Then we do have much of the visual art of the Western (and probably Eastern) world. I was really impressed with the abundance and magnificence of the spiritual dimension of the artistic works when I traveled to Rome for the first time. But then, they have great pocketbooks and other leather goods as well, different dimensions of creativity.

Justin
December 10, 2006 - 12:33 am
Spirituality and or religiosity had little to do with the work of Michelangelo. He painted images selected and commissioned by others. Certainly he exercised great skill in carrying out conmmissions.

His patrons provided direction not some inner spiritual motivation.Most artists are driven by a need to create, to apply their skills, and to produce something of which they are proud.

When he was free to choose a subject he chose a figure expressing his own motives and they were not those of spirituality.His motives were more those of a male interested in the magnificence of another male form.

Art in the Renaisance was patron supported and the major patron was the church. That's why religious works are so numerous and so prominent in Rome.It was almost the only game in town.

Of course, there were monks who were skillful artists. Fra Angelica's work is brilliant. Was he spiritually motivated? Who knows. My guess is he was motivated by a desire to express his skills. The themes he chose were commonplace. Very often the formats were traditional and stylized. The pyramidal "Holy Family" for example, lasted several centuries. Even Leonardo felt constrained by the form.

One last thought.Creativity is a search for something new and different but valuable. Giotto's expression of reality is creative. His application of narrative painting is creative. Michelangelo's expression of God's action through finger tips is creative. Leonardo's expression of perspective in the "Last Supper" is creative. What is not creative? Michelangelo's papal tomb sculptures.

Bubble
December 10, 2006 - 03:19 am
We create when we feel a strong urge to exteriorize what burns deeply inside our self. There are innumerable (countless?) ways to do that, inside given bonders or not.

David is above all a superb human body! He never evoked anything biblical for me. Rodin's thinker too, with an older body.

robert b. iadeluca
December 10, 2006 - 05:41 am
We are currently discussing Verona. Any reactions to Durant's comments in Post 215?

Robby

EllieC1113
December 10, 2006 - 07:31 am
Thank you Robby for bringing us back to the text. I observe the huge amount of violence in the struggle for power and leadership. People assassinating their relatives. There also seems to be, perhaps a tendency toward centralization of power. I would say it is part of the same phenomenon that is currently resulting in the global economy. In the period of the Renaissance in the Italian culture, whoever headed the city states had much of the power. The Dominicans are also mentioned in the reading, another major source of power. Where are the original sources from which the facts of the Durant narrative are found? Literacy was not very high during that period. Who documented what was going on? Did the university scholars do so? If anyone knows, please post.

winsum
December 10, 2006 - 08:38 am
the word Renaissance has always meant some form of creative expression to me and I might add others and here we are immersed in the political arguments of the time. I like it when we go into the area of art, architecture writing music whatever is meant by the word itself. I don't think it means political infighting among the powers that be.

Justin we still don't quite agree as to what is creativity,but that's not new is it. You say it's a search and I say it's a happening, a bridge tot he subconscious as it's been said or as bubble suggests an opening of self to what lies inside. not anything as active as a SEARCH. smiles Claire

Traude S
December 10, 2006 - 08:54 am
To reiterate: Many other city-states of the not-yet-unified Italy of the time saw fights for dominance between the leading families; a reflection of the greater struggle between the papacy and the Holy Roman Emperors.

In Verona, the pro-imperial della Scala family emerged as winner. Can Francesco della Scala (aka Can Grande della Scala) was made imperial vicar by Emperor Henry VII. He participated in the struggles against the Guelphs, the papal party, and - as Durant wrote - extended his territories to include Vicenza, Padua, Feltre, Belluno and Treviso. (Verona was at that time part of the Republic of Venice and one of the important Northern Italian states.)

Can Grande della Scala was a despot, as Durant wrote, but he transformed Verona, both physically - many magnificent buildings were added in his time, and culturally through strong patronage of the arts and letters. He supported poets (Dante Alighieri, Petrarch) and painters (Giotto, and Altichiero, who lived in his residence.) Dante mentioned Can Grande in his Paradiso .

ELLIE, I have also wondered what sources Durant used (I don't have any of the volumes, therefore cannot check the bibliography). SoC was a tremendous success in this country; in continental Europe he is not well known.

CLAIRE, I saw your post when I when back to check mine. Perhaps we can "dig" into creativity further when individual artists or their work are discussed.

robert b. iadeluca
December 10, 2006 - 11:09 am
Rienzo's Revolution

robert b. iadeluca
December 10, 2006 - 11:20 am
"Back in Avignon and Vaucluse Petrarch, still enjoying the friendship of the Colonnas, rejoiced to hear that revolution had flared up in Rome and that the son of a tavern keeper and a washerwoman had deposed the Colonnas and other aristocrats from power, and had restored the glorious republic of the Scipios, the Gracchi, and Arnold of Brescia.

"Niccola di Rienzo Gabrini, known by the economy of popular speech as Cola di Rienzo and by a careless posterity as Rienzi, had met Petrarch in 1343 when, as a young notary of thirty years age, he had come to Avignon to acquaint Clement VI with the dire condition of Rome and to solicit for the Roman people the support of the papacy against the feuding, marauding nobles who dominated the capital. Clement, although skeptical, had sent him back with encouragement and florins, hoping to use the fervent lawyer in the recurrent conflict of the popes with the aristocracy.

"Rienzo, like Petrarch, had had his imagination fired by the ruins and classics of Rome.

"Dressed in the white toga of an ancient senator and speaking with the ardor of the Gracchi and almost the eloquence of Cicero, he pointed to the remains of the majestic forums and colossal baths and reminded the Romans of the time when consuls or emperors, from these hills, had given laws and order urbi et orbi, to the city and to the world. He challenged them to seize the government, to restore the popular assembly, and to elect a tribune strong enough to protect them against the usurping nobility.

"The poor listened in awe. Merchants wondered might this potential tribune make Rome safe for industry and trade. Aristocrats laughed and made Rienzo the but of their dinner jollity.

"He promised to hang a selection of them when the revolution came.

"Urbi et orbi" - the same phrase used these days by the pope.

Robby

BaBi
December 10, 2006 - 03:15 pm
Not only the story of Romeo and Juliet; remember "Two Gentlemen of Verona" was also set there. Very few of Shakespeare's characters and stories were original. They were based on historical figures and events, or old stories and myths. Ah, but didn't he bring them alive and make them real!

I wonder...did the phrase "you'll [insert some variation of 'be sorry'] come the revolution" start with Rienzi's taunt to the aristocrats?

Babi

Justin
December 10, 2006 - 03:54 pm
Durant's sources were, for the most part, secondary. However, I am sure he used the Chronicles of Froisart who wrote about 1360-70 and Vasari, Geoffrey of Monmouth is also available as is Bishop Odo, Giraldus Cambrensis,John of Garland, William Langland, The Memorials of London, The Memorials of Canterbury, Le journal d'un bourgeois, Roger of Wendover, Abbot Suger, Jean de Joinville, Villani, Boccaccio, Ghiberti,Matthew Paris, Geoffrey Chaucer,Erasmus, Petrach and Dante.

There are numerous primary sources in the Renaissance. The great Library at Canterbury is an excellent source as are the British Museum, the Vatican and the Paris Bibliotech.The sources offered above range from the Duecento to the Cinquicento.

Justin
December 10, 2006 - 05:12 pm
Barbara Tuchman defines the Renaissance as that period when the values of this world replaced those of the hereafter. Under it's impulse the individual found in himself rather than in God the designer and captain of his fate.

winsum
December 10, 2006 - 05:39 pm

Justin
December 10, 2006 - 06:05 pm
God, Claire, that's a good question. All this period leads into the Reformation and the causes must be apparent. I think the place to start is where we left off in Faith. Abelard and the formation of the Scholastics is one chink in the armour of the dominant religion. Frederick 11 contributed greatly to loss of vatican political power.Secularization through the Vatican States contributed. The abuses of the six Popes ranging from 1460 on contributed to the decline in God's power. The Schism and the Babylonian Captivity contributed. The discovery of Loacoan brought back an interest in things classical and secular.The rise of the cities and with it a rise in secular political power at the expense of the Papacy contributed. It's a complex question you pose.

bluebird24
December 10, 2006 - 06:17 pm
http://www.abcgallery.com/M/michelangelo/michelangelo11.html

bluebird24
December 10, 2006 - 06:21 pm
http://roma.katolsk.no/anastasia.htm

winsum
December 10, 2006 - 07:00 pm
I think that's where I saw a dramatization of THE BIRTH OF EUROPEAN CULTURE in TOLEDO. Because it was the only large city in spain which permitted all three groups to live together, the jews, christians and muslims. The arabs seem to have contributed the most to liturature and writing. They crosspollinated nicely and we have what we have. a tremendous growth in possibilities and creativity.

robert b. iadeluca
December 11, 2006 - 02:16 am
"On May 20,1347 a concourse of Romans crowded to the Capitol.

"Rienzo appeared before them escorted by the bishop of Orviero as vicar of the pope. He proclaimed the restoration of the Republic and a distribution of alms. They elected him dictator and at a later meeting allowed him to take the old popular title of tribune.

"The aged Senator Stefano Colonna protested. Cola ordered him and the other nobles to leave the city. Furious, but respecting the armed revlutionaries, they withdrew to their country estates.

"Delirious with success, Rienzo began to speak of himself as the divinely inspired 'illustrious redeemer of the Holy Roman Republic by the authority of Jesus Christ.'

"His administration was excellent.

"Food prices were regulated to check profiteering. Surplus corn was stored in the granaries. Work was begun to drain the malarial marshes and put the Campagne under cultivation. New courts dealt out justice with impartial severity.

"A monk and a baron were beheaded for equal felonies. A former senator was hanged for robbing a merchant vessel. The cutthroats hired by noble factions were arrested. A court of concilliation pacified in a few months 1800 feuds.

"Aristocrats accustomed to being their own law were shocked to find themselves held responsible for crimes committed on their estates. Some paid heavy fines. Pietro Colonna, dripping dignity, was led on foot to jail. Judges guilty of malfeasance were exposed to public pillories.

"Peasants tilled their fields in unwonted security and peace. Merchants and pilgrims en route to Rome kissed the insignia of the resurrected Republic tht made the highways safe after half a century of brigandage.

"All Italy marveled at the intrepid transformation and Petrarch raised to Rienzo a paean of gratitude and praise."

An overnight change to a Republic? How could that be?

Robby

Bubble
December 11, 2006 - 05:15 am
If it was really thus, I wonder if such a dramatic change could happen today. I have my doubts.

EllieC1113
December 11, 2006 - 12:28 pm
1800 feuds were settled in these courts relatively rapidly. In early modern Iceland, there were bloodfeuds. In law school, my daughter took a course given by a lawyer/historical scholar called bloodfeuds. They read a batch of Icelandic sagas, and apparently the mother would rear her son/sons to exact vengeance for the murder of the son's father. I like the idea of courts of conciliation. We have them in NY State to deal with issues that can potentially be mediated. I am going to search for more info on courts of conciliation.

We are looking for a strong leader like Rienzo to direct the Iraq transformation. Will such a person be found?

Justin
December 11, 2006 - 01:44 pm
Mussolini was successful in similar ways in the beginingof his reign.He brought back some Roman practices as well as symbolism. The "faces" for example may be found on buildings from the period as well as on postage stamps.

Pat H
December 11, 2006 - 02:51 pm
Rienzo must have had remarkable abilities to make all that work well, given the opposition of the previously powerful, albeit not united, nobles.

Pat H
December 11, 2006 - 02:52 pm
Bluebird, thanks for the Bacchus link. Definitely not a religious work.

robert b. iadeluca
December 11, 2006 - 04:43 pm
"Seizing his opportrunity with bold statesmanship, the tribune despatched envoys throughout the peninsula, inviting the cities to send representatives who would form a great parliament to unite and govern 'the whole of sacred Italy' in a federation of municipalities and to make Rome again the capital of the world.

"To a preliminary council of judges gathered from all Italy he submitted a question:--might the Roman Republic, now reconstituted, rightfully reclaim all the privileges and powers that in its decay had been delegated to other authorities?

"Answered in the affirmative, Rienzo put through the popular assembly a law restoring to the Republic all such grants of power. This grandiose declaration, sweeping away a millennium of donations, abdications, and coronations, threatened alike the Holy Roman Empire, the autonomous cities, and the termporal power of thge Church.

"Twenty-five communes sent representatives to Rienzo's parliament but the major city-states -- Venice, Florence, Milan -- hesitated to submit their sovereignty to a federation.

"Clement VI was pleased with the tribune's piety, his formal sharing of his authority with the bishop of Orvicto, the protection he gave to pilgrims, and prospects he held out of a lucrative jubilee in 1350.

"But -- he began to wonder -- was not this sanguine republican an impractical idealist who would outreach himself to ruin?

Aging wisdom (the pope) cautiously looks at youthful exuberance (Rienzo).

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 11, 2006 - 05:52 pm
This is the CLEMENT VI who watched carefully the "antics" of Rienzo.

Robby

Traude S
December 11, 2006 - 07:12 pm
That's true.
Rienzo's intentions were sincere, his sweeping actions bold. But countless idealists and reformers at the apex of their glory, before and after him, could not sustain their initial momentum. Not a few were blinded by their unlimited power, became self-important and ultimately failed.

Rienzo had an extraordinary life. It inspired Richard Wagner, impetuous and a political rebel himself, to compose the opera Rienzi, The Last Tribune , for which he also wrote the libretto. It was an early work, Wagner's third opera, and his first significant success.
It is noisy and very long (five acts) and was conceived as a grandiose spectacle in the French style. In later years Wagner was embarrassed by it.

Justin
December 12, 2006 - 01:19 am
Yes, Traude. The Rienzo of Wagner is rarely performed. About fifty years ago a small provincial opera group with which I was associated undertook the project but was forced to abandon it with limited financial support.

robert b. iadeluca
December 12, 2006 - 04:00 am
Considering the fact that 30 people showed up here at the beginning, I assume we have 25 lurkers.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 12, 2006 - 04:13 am
"Amazing and pitiful was the collapse of the noble dream.

"Power, like freedom, is a test that only a sober intelligence can meet. Rienza was too great an orator to be a realistic statesman. He came to believe his own magnificent phrases, promises, and claims. He was poisoned by his own periods.

"When the federative assembly met, he had arranged that it should begin by conferring knighthood upon him. That evening he proceeded with his escort to the baptistery of St. John, Lateran, and plunged bodily into the great basin, wherein, according to legend, Constantine had washed away his paganism and his sins. Then, clad in white, he slept through the night on a public couch set up amid the pillars of the church.

"On the morrow he issued to the assembly and the world a decree declaring all the cities of Italy to be free, endowing them with Roman citizenship, and reserving exclusively to the people of Rome and Italy the authority to elect an emperor. Drawing his sword, he flourished it in three directions, saying, as the representative of Rome, 'That belongs to me, that to me, and that.'

"He began now to indulge in ostentatious extravagance. He rode about on a white horse under a royal banner, preceded by one hundred armed men and dressed in a white silk robe with fringes of gold. When Stefano Colonna twitted him about the gold fringe, he announced that the nobles were conspiring against him (which was probably true), ordered the arrest of several, had them led in chains to the Capitol, proposed to the assembly that they should be beheaded, relented, pardoned them, and ended by appointing them to offices of state in the Campaigna.

"They rewarded him by raising a force of mercenaries against the Republic. The city's militia went out to meet them and defeated them. Stefano Colonna and his son died in the battle."

Who was it who said: "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions?"

And then I think of George Orwell in The Animal Farm where the pig said: "We are all equal but some are more equal than others."

Do you agree with Durant that a "great orator cannot be a realistic statesman?" and with his statement that "power, like freedom, is a test that only a sober intelligence can meet?"

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
December 12, 2006 - 05:43 am
"Big talkers, little doers". Great orators love to hear themselves talk and what they say is not as important as the effect his speech has on his audience and gets carried away with it when he sees how far he can go to get what he wants. Some good orators don't have that "sober intelligence" and many reach the top of the heap with good vocal chords and a nimble tongue. Some who have great intelligence are too often lost deep in the pages of a book and not often enough seen where they could get elected to power.

BaBi
December 12, 2006 - 06:29 am
It has been my observation, over a lifetime, that human history much resembles the movement of a pendulum. Whenever things swing too far in one direction (Justin's Post #233 cites examples), enough people become restive and resentful that the pendulum begins to swing in the other direction. Therefore, whenever anyone points to a trend and declares that we are going to end up ruined, in one way or another, I am unimpressed. Before we reach that dire end, the pendulum will swing back the other way.

I would not say Rienzi's changes occurred 'overnight'. But the first steps he took meant lower food prices, work for the unemployed, and evidence that justice was now restored. That is quite enough to get him popular support. Ultimately, and sadly, the insidious corruption of power took him too far, It's a heady drink, that destroys one's 'sober intelligence'.

The Council of Mediation sounds so wonderfully successful. I wonder, tho', if it would be at all effective in a culture where vengeance is so deep-seated as in Iceland, or Iraq. Oh I wish!

Babi

Pat H
December 12, 2006 - 08:10 am
It's certainly possible for a great orator to be a good statesman. Look at Winston Churchill, for example. But Eloise is right that orators often get carried away by their own words and lose touch with reality.

Rienzo is drunk with his power, as well as his oratory, and has fallen into the trap of self-importance.

winsum
December 12, 2006 - 09:22 am
I try but this is not what I expected. I thought it would be about the arts and maybe that's their problem too. . . . claire

Scrawler
December 12, 2006 - 10:16 am
I look to the man behind the speech. There have been many great orators like Winston Churchill and FDR that the general population were attracted too and who in return gave the people hope in dire situations. Then there were the great orators like Hilter who oozed power and mezmirazed his audience into believing what he wanted them to believe. So in answer to your question a great orator depending on the person can be a realistic statesman, but only if what he believes in is realistic.

As to power, like freedom is a test that only a sobor intelligance can meet, I for one, think this is correct. In order to gain both you have to be forever vigil about what is happening around you. It is to easy for civil liberities to be taken away and we must keep a watch on the powers that be in order that this does not happen. But by the same token those who seek power do exactly the same thing, only with an opposite effect.

JoanK
December 12, 2006 - 11:01 am
On blood feuds: I remember what Durant said in an earlier volume: that "justice" in societies goes through three stages: first there are blood feuds. But the problem with them becomes evident (as we are seeing in Iraq) --- they never end. A kills B. Then B's family must kill A. Then A's family must kill someone in B's family. Then ... they go on for hundreds of years.

Finally, a government gets the idea of "blood money". A must pay bloodmoney to B's family, and that ends it. Lastly, we get a system of laws where murder exacts a fixed penalty, carried out by the State, not the family. That ends the matter, and life can go on peacefully. This is really necessary if ever there is to be a peaceful society.

Unfortunately, many societies haven't yet learned this lesson. In some cases, they are not really nations yet -- not governed by a state that is above, or separate from, the feuding interests. This is what we hoped would happen in Iraq. But it seems never to have truly been a nation -- only held together by Sadam's oppression of the majority. Without that, it is breaking apart into feuding "families".

Traude S
December 12, 2006 - 12:22 pm
No, I do not agree with Durant that "an orator cannot be a realistic statesman". The terms are not mutually exclusive. Churchill, whose example PAT cited, is certainly proof of that.


Re Durant's second statement "... power, like freedom, is a test that only a sober intelligence can meet". Its meaning is clear but both power and freedom require more IMHO than "sober intelligence".

gaj
December 12, 2006 - 02:45 pm
To me IMHO Power corrupts absolute power corrupts absolutely. Whenever someone is given the position of being leader it is so easy to get a big head. The plan of term limits for the president helps us in the USA to limit this problem. Giving or taking a political position for an indefinite time leads to dictators.

Pat H
December 12, 2006 - 02:57 pm
Claire, I think you may be right that some people were put off by finding politics, not art. I was surprised myself. But hang in there, lurkers, the art will come. For myself, I'm hoping to come out of this section with at least a somewhat better understanding of the convoluted history.

Putney
December 12, 2006 - 03:02 pm
I wasn't (am not) surprised about the topics.I am enjoying the discussion VERY much...I am a lurker, because I have always enjoyed listening more than I enjoy speaking

winsum
December 12, 2006 - 03:54 pm
Then the rest of us could enjoy your enjoyment, your view which has been the opposite of mine would be interesting for me anyway.

IMHO lurkers don't do their part to keep the discussion going and they have lots to contribute or they wouldn't be here . . . interested and LURKING.

claire

robert b. iadeluca
December 12, 2006 - 04:11 pm
Claire and PatH:- Please keep in mind that all of Durant's volumes follow the same pattern. His entire set of eleven volumes is about the development of civilization. Witness the pictures in the Heading representing the gradual movement from cave men to the ability to read. No one volume, including this one, is about art or any other discipline. Durant explains it carefully in his quote in the Heading:-"Four elements constitute Civilization -- economic provision, political organization, moral traditions, and the pursuit of knowledge and the arts."

This means that this volume like the preceding four and the following six take the same approach. In examining the Renaissance Durant will, as he examines the cities in the GREEN quotes above, examine the economy, the politics, the morals, and then the arts. As he moves through the century and looks at other geographical areas he will again examine the economy, the politics, the morals, and then the arts, etc.

Each of us participants have specific fairly narrow interests but he is telling us the entire story of mankind. Volume Five is not about the arts. It is about The Renaissance period.

Robby

winsum
December 12, 2006 - 04:17 pm
I'll be back when you are into my area of interest. question is this period in other places called THE MIDDLE AGES?.

claire

robert b. iadeluca
December 12, 2006 - 04:22 pm
I would hope, Claire, that you would be interested in the entire development of mankind, including how art fit into that -- however, chacun a son gout.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 12, 2006 - 04:35 pm
"Rienzo, exalted by success, more and more ignored and thrust aside the papal representatie whom he had associated with himself in office and authority.

"Cardinals from Italy and from France warned Clement that a unified Italy -- and much more an empire ruled from Rome -- would make the Italian Church a prisoner of the state.

"On October 7 Clement commissioned his legate Bertrand de Deux to offer Rienzo a choice betwen deposition and the striction of his powers to the secular affairs of the city of Rome. After some resistance Cola yielded. He promised obedience to the Pope and withdrew the edicts that had annulled imperial and papal privileges. Unmollified, Clenment resolved to unseat the incalculable tribune.

"On December 3 he published a bull stigmatizing Cola as a criminal and a heretic and called upon the Romans to banish him. The legate suggested that if this should not be done, no jubilee would be proclaimed. Meanwhile the nobles had raised another army which now advanced upon Rome. Rienzo had the tocsin rung to call the people to arms. Only a few came. Many resented the taxes he had levied. Some preferred the profits of a jubilee to the responsibilities of freedom.

"As the forces of the aristocrcy neared the Capitol, Rienzo's wonted courage waned. He discarded the insignia of his office, said good-by to his friends, broke into tears, and shut himself up in the Castello Sant' Angelo.

"The triumphant nobles re-entered their city palances and the papal legate named two of them as senators to rule Rome."

And so the two "enemies, the pope and the nobles, joined forces. Apparently Rienzo never heard the expression:-"Discretion is the better part of valor."

Robby

bluebird24
December 12, 2006 - 06:23 pm
http://www.castelsantangelo.com

winsum
December 12, 2006 - 06:25 pm
the present requires enough of my time and interest and eyesight. reading on line is a problem for me and while Durants may be discussing history's influences they are not currently relevant in my world. but thanks for your interest. . . claire

bluebird24
December 12, 2006 - 06:27 pm
do not know a lot:( Robby is smart! I learn more from his words.

winsum
December 12, 2006 - 06:33 pm
a beautiful picture but the rest is in Italian.

and we're into art now?

Adrbri
December 12, 2006 - 09:12 pm
In English - - -

http://www.romaspqr.it/Inglese/Castel_s_angelo_ing.htm

Brian

winsum
December 12, 2006 - 09:51 pm
what a weird architectural hodge podge this place was but from the outside it has unity. . . surrounded by angels.

Justin
December 12, 2006 - 11:47 pm
Yes, Sant'Angelo is forbidding place. It guards the entrance or exit path to Vatican City. It was built over time, Sangallo having a hand in it at one period. It was a prison for much of its existance primarily for papal prisoners. The structure was started by Hadrian as a tomb and gradually grew into a fortress. Lots of Popes met their end here in interesting ways. Some were housed in cages that were too small to allow one to stand. I visited the place when last in Rome and found it overwhelming structurally. It is one of several buildings remaining from the Roman Empire period. Those surviving did so because they were useful to the church either as a church or a fortress.

Baron Scapia from the Opera Tosca tortures his enemy Cavaradosi there while the beautiful Tosca entertains the Baron long enough to plunge a knife in him. It is on an upper deck of the Castel where the Baron's soldiers supposedly armed with blank's form a firing squad and shoot Cavradossi. He falls back and over the walls to a parapet below, dead.

winsum
December 13, 2006 - 12:07 am
the english link, thanks to brian, tells us much the same story but without the drama. . . claire

Mallylee
December 13, 2006 - 03:38 am
Winsum#261

It's difficult to write this sort of vast history without periodisation. I note that you like history of art, about which I am probably not as knowledgeable as you. I do remember that Giotto and Cimabue are regarded as Early Modern Era although they are really very early.

Are artists more advanced in their thought and imagination than politicians, farmers, or technologists? I guess they are.

However some art rise from other spheres for instance Leonardo's imagination was rooted in science and technology. Robert Burns earned his living as a farmer before he was a poet. I guesss there are other examples of artists who are not simply artists,

Artists are avant garde. This could be disputed! Maybe art could be defined as THE avant garde.

Was Petrarch avant garde? Is it this quality that made him a Renaissance character?

robert b. iadeluca
December 13, 2006 - 03:45 am
Any reactions to Durant's words in Post 263?

Robby

Pat H
December 13, 2006 - 09:03 am
So Rienzo's rise to power started with a certain amount of legitimacy conferred by the previous patronage of the Pope. But R. ignored how the Pope would react to the threat of his ever increasing power. It's no wonder that the sworn enemies, the Pope and the nobles, banded together to defeat the common enemy. It's interesting, though, that R. was unable to keep the loyalty of the people.

I wonder what will happen to this new alliance? Such alliances tned to fall apart when there is no longer a common danger.

robert b. iadeluca
December 13, 2006 - 03:36 pm
"Unmolested by the nobles but still under the ban of the Church, Rienzo fled to Naples and then to the mountain forests of the Abruzzi near Sulmona. There he donned the garb of a penitent and for two years lived as an anchorite.

"Then, surviving a thousand hardships and tribulations, he made his way, secretly and in disguise, through Italy and the Alps and Austria to the Emperor Charles IV at Prague. He pronounced before him an angry indictment of the popes. To their absence from Rome he attributed the anarchy and poverty of that city and to their temporal power and policy the abiding division of Italy.

"Charles rebuked him and defended the popes. But when Clement demanded that Cola be sent as a papal prisoner to Avignon, Charles kept him in protective confinement in a fortress on the Elbe.

"After a year of unbearable inactivity and isolation Cola asked to be sent to the papal court. On his journey to Avignon crowds flocked to see him and gallant knights offered to guard him with their swords. On August 10, 1352, he reached Avignon in such miserable raiment that all men pitied him.

"He asked for Petrarch who was at Vancluse. The poet responded by issuing to the people of Rome a clarion call to protect the man who had offered them liberty.

"Clement did not ask for Cola's death but ordered him kept in custody in the tower of the papal palace at Avignon.

"While Rienzo studied Scripture and Livy there, a new tribune, Francesco Baroncelli, seized power in Rome, banished the nobles, flouted the papal legate and allied himself with the Ghibelline supporters of the emperors against the popes.

"Clement's successor, Innocent VI, released Cola, and sent him to Italy as an aide to Cardinal Albornoz, whom he charged with restoring the papal authority in Rome. As the subtle cardinal and the subdued dictator neared the capital a revolt was staged. Baroncelli was deposed and killed and the Romans turned over the city to Albornoz. The populace welcomed Rienzo with arches of triumph and joyful acclamations in crowded streeets.

"Albornoz appointed him senator and delegated to him the secular government of Rome.

Seems like a long period of misery to go through just to end up being named a senator.

Robby

BaBi
December 13, 2006 - 04:37 pm
Yeah, but at least Rienzo made a successful comeback, ROBBY. How many of the 'fallen' can make that claim. I do wonder at the difference there is between "protective confinement" by Chas. IV and "custody in the tower" by the Pope. While under 'protection', Rienzo suffers isolation and boredom. While in 'custody' of his enemy, he is able to read and study. Who was it said, 'Heaven protect me from my friends; I can handle my enemies.'...or words to that effect?

Babi

robert b. iadeluca
December 13, 2006 - 05:50 pm
Did you know that Emperor Charles IV of Prague was the GOOD KING WENCESLAUS of whom we sing at Christmas time?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 13, 2006 - 06:05 pm
When we speak to each other about EMPEROR CHARLES IV we call what we are discussing "history." Not so in the Czech Republic (formerly Czechoslovakia). As recently as just one year ago the Czech citizens voted him "the greatest Czech of all time". Click onto the photo of the still existing Charles Bridge (built in his time) to enlarge it. It is said that "wherever you look you can see his footsteps."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 13, 2006 - 06:19 pm
Here is a photo of the PAPAL PALACE AT AVIGNON.

Robby

Rich7
December 13, 2006 - 06:21 pm
Robby, I think Charles IV, although he was born with the name Wenceslaus, was not the same Good King Wenceslaus that we sing about. Good king Wenceslaus was king of Bohemia (now the area of the Czech Republic) in the 10th century, and was martyred. Charles IV was emperor in the 14th century.

Several months ago I was on that same bridge in Prague, and also walked the length of Wenceslaus Square. Whatever we think of Prague under the Communists, it has retained its Medeval character while embracing the modern world. Wenceslaus Square is lined with upscale stores such as Calvin Klein, Versace, Chanel, etc.

Rich

gaj
December 13, 2006 - 07:26 pm
Robbie ~ Thanks for the link GOOD KING WENCESLAUS. To me it fascinating to look at royal families time-lines. If I had the time, I think it would be interesting to follow Charles' daughter's children and their children. Wow he married four wives.

winsum
December 13, 2006 - 08:40 pm
and alternately the home of the worlds spiritual daddy. at Avignon.

popes place

Traude S
December 13, 2006 - 09:11 pm
#276 BABI, there is no difference IMHO between "protective confinement" and "custody in the tower" (which was a fortress). For Cola it meant the loss of freedom for the duration. Access to books and writing may have saved his sanity.

ROBBY, not only the history but the geography of Europe can be a challenge.

Czechslovakia was artifically created by the Allies in 1919 at Versailles. The region was part of the former Habsburg Empire, which was dissembled. Austria like Germany had lost WW I.
The Czechs and the Slovaks are of different ethnic origin, did not even speak the same language.

In 1948, at the end of WW II, the Soviet Union predominated in Eastern Europe. A new day dawned with the fall of the Iron Curtain in 1989. One by one the Eastern countries attained their independence. Most of them are now members of the EU, the European Union.

In 1992 Czechoslovakia was divided into the Czech Republic and Slovakia.

I agree with Rich. Good Old King Wencelas, born ca. 907, is not identical with Charles IV, 1316-1378.

robert b. iadeluca
December 14, 2006 - 04:25 am
"Years of imprisonment had fattened the body, broken the courage, and dulled the mind of the once brilliant and fearless tribune.

"His policies cleaved to the papal line and shunned the grand emprises of his younger reign. The nobility still hated him and the proletariat, seeing in him now a cautious conservative cured of Utopia, turned against him as disloyal to their cause.

"When the Colonna decleared war upon him and beseiged him in Palestrina, his unpaid troops verged on mutiny. He borrowed money to pay them, raised taxes to redeem the debt, and alienated the middle class.

"Hardly two months after his return to power a revolutionary mob marched to the Capitol shouting:-'Long live the people! Death to the trator Cola di Rienzo!' He came out of his palace in knightly armor and tried to control the crowd with eloquence.

"But the rebels drowned his voice with noise and showered him with missiles. An arrow struck him in the head and he withdrew into the palace. The mob set fire to the doors, broke through them, and plundered the rooms.

"Hiding in one of these, Rienzo hastily cut off his beard, donned a porter's cloak, and piled some bedding upon his head. Emerging, he passed through part of the crowd unrecognized. But his gold bracelet betrayed him and he was led as a prisoner to the steps of the Capitol where he himself had condemned men to death. He asked for a hearing and began to move the meople with his speech.

"But an artisan fearful of eloquence cut him short with a sword thrust in the stomach. A hundred demiheroes plunged their knives into his dead body.

"The bloody corpse was dragged through the streets and was hung up like carrion at a butcher's stall. It remained there two days, a target for public contumely and urchins' stones."

What is the moral here?

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
December 14, 2006 - 05:40 am
A golden tongue didn't save Cola when his gold bracelet betrayed him. Many great men finished in a similar fashion, I could name several, most of them were excellent orators seducing a population who, in the end resented him for that and had him killed.

EllieC1113
December 14, 2006 - 10:21 am
Lincoln was an amazing orator and a very effective, pragmatic political leader. I love something that goes "the greater angels of our nature." I think it appears in the Lincoln Memorial, from some inaugural address of his--maybe the second. To govern for the long-term benefit of the governed required, especially in the past, a lack of narcissism, which was hard to come by, especially given the short life expectancies of everybody. Lack of narcissism is a rare phenomenon, which I believe comes from receiving unconditional love from one or both parents, or from a parental figure, like a very sweet, unconditionally loving grandmother or grandfather. I think Lincoln got much of this non-narcissistic nature from very nurturing interactions with his stepmother when he was young. According to Freud, this stuff is etched in a person's psyche by age 5, which I firmly agree with. Or at least by age 18.

winsum
December 14, 2006 - 10:29 am
what an image. I shall have to try hard to forget it. so this too is the renaisance. claire

Justin
December 14, 2006 - 04:28 pm
Comparison with Musolini is hard to avoid. He too hung by a leg from a hastily erected stansion.

BaBi
December 14, 2006 - 04:52 pm
TRAUDE, that was my point. I guess I'm not very good with irony.

ROBBY, there are no doubt many morals to Rienzo's story. The one that comes most forcibly to my mind is that there is no reasoning with a mob. The next is that the man in power is always the target of every ambitious and envious soul. So why on earth do so many strive so mightily to gain power over others? A death wish? "What fools these mortals be!"

Babi

robert b. iadeluca
December 14, 2006 - 06:51 pm
The Wandering Scholar

robert b. iadeluca
December 14, 2006 - 06:55 pm
"Rienzo failed to restore ancient Rome which was dead to all but poetry.

"Petrarch succeeded in restoring Roman literature which had never died. He had so openly supported Cola's revolt that he had forfeited the favor of the Colonna in Avignon. For a time he thought of joining Rienzo in Rome. He was as far on the way to Genoa when he heard that the tribune's position and conduct were deteriorating.

"He changed his course to Parma. He was in Italy when the Black Death came, taking many of his friends, and killing Laura in Avignon.

"In 1348 he accepted the invitation of Iacopo II da Carrara to be his guest in padua."

Robby

kiwi lady
December 14, 2006 - 08:07 pm
Great Orators Of the last 100 years

Martin Luther King

John Fitzgerald Kennedy

Winston Churchhill

Our late PM David Lange.

All of these men were Statesmen in my opinion as well as Orators.

As an aside Churchill's books of British History are so readable and really well written. I never realised that he was such a great writer.

Pat H
December 14, 2006 - 08:56 pm
Churchill had a remarkable gift for finding the right phrase. I have tapes of a number of his speeches, and he really knew what to say and how to say it. His books show this gift, too.

Kiwi Lady, if you don't think it's too far afield, tell me about David Lange. My knowledge of New Zealand history and politics is pitiful, although my respect for the New Zealanders I've met (mostly chemists) is huge.

kiwi lady
December 14, 2006 - 09:08 pm
David Lange won the Oxford Debate which was defending our Nuclear Free Policies. He was invited to Oxford University. His opponent was American. He was a great speaker. He had a rare illness and in his latter years he toured the country as a speaker with one of our Poetry readers. He made many many great speeches in his debates. David Lange often put his point across using his very dry and clever wit.

Pat we have quite a few research chemists working in North America. Some have developed ground breaking cancer drugs. Pity we don't have the R&D money to keep them here. We are so tiny only 4,000,000 people.

My favorite speech of all times and one which I have on my refrigerator is the Martin Luther King - "I have a dream" speech. I hope in my lifetime the dream may be realised. It is not fulfilled yet even in my country.

Pat H
December 14, 2006 - 09:15 pm
Now we are starting to see the effects of the Black Death. I'll be interested to see how this plays out in Italy. I know that in general in Europe it played havoc with politics by killing off some key rulers. And it changed the whole economic scene for a while. There were few enough workers left that their value was much greater than before. Boccaccio's "Decameron" is supposedly a bunch of stories told by a group of nobles cooped up in the country, fleeing the plague in Florence.

Traude S
December 14, 2006 - 09:23 pm
BABI,
In a recent post you used the metaphor of a pendulum, a good comparison.
There are in fact cycles: the seven-year cycle of feast and famine, the rise and fall of nations, generations, the travails of individual lives; in never-ending repetition.

Rienzo's life and death could be taken as a warning, a lesson of how to act as a leader and especially as statesman, what to do and what to avoid, whom to trust, most of all, not to become vainglorious. But who heeds such lessons ?

JUSTIN, I too thought of Mussolini. He escaped in a German truck and was caught by Partisans near the Swiss border. The Partisan Council decided on his execution. Clara Petacci, his long-time mistress, was excuted with him, in April 1945. She was a woman of great beauty; her face was stamped on an Italian coin - I can't remember the denomination. Sic transit gloria mundi.

winsum
December 14, 2006 - 09:33 pm
very lovely lady

Pat H
December 14, 2006 - 09:47 pm
When Mussolini was executed, a number of post cards were made showing his body. One of my cousins who had fought there in WWII passed through DC on his way home and showed them to us. I was only 11 at the time, but even then I thought it was pretty tasteless. Now I wonder if anyone got any satisfaction out of this aspect of revenge.

(Side biographical note--this cousin was from the Italian side of my family. He had a really good ear for dialects, and was used by the army mostly to check out suspicious people. I remember him telling some stories whose point was how somebody had pronounced something, which fell pretty flat in our house.)

robert b. iadeluca
December 15, 2006 - 03:39 am
Read about SIC TRANSIT GLORIA MUNDI.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 15, 2006 - 03:48 am
Details about the BLACK DEATH.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 15, 2006 - 03:55 am
"Padua had a burdensome antiquity.

"It was already hundreds of years old when Livy was born there in 59 B.C. It became a free commune in 1174, suffered the tyranny of Ezzelino, recovered its independence, sang litanies to liberty, and subjectd Vicenza to its domination.

"Attacked and almost overcome by Can Grande della Scala of Verona, it abandoned its freedom and chose as dictator Iacopo I da Carrara, a man as hard as the marble tht bore his name. Later members of the family succeeded to his power by inheritance or assassination.

"Petrarch's host seized the reins in 1345 by murdering his predecessor, tried to atone by good government, but was stabbed to death after four years of rule.

"Francesco I de Carrra, in a remarkable reign of almost forty years, raised Padua to a passing rivalry with Milan, Florence, and Venice.

"He made the mistake of joining Genoa against Venice in the bitter war of 1378. Venice won and subjected Padua to her rule."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 15, 2006 - 03:58 am
Read more about PADUA.

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
December 15, 2006 - 04:37 am
20% to 50% victims in Europe alone. Signs and symptoms. Breakdown of social order. The Decameron HERE is a map of how fast and extensive the plague spread.

Rich7
December 15, 2006 - 06:21 am
The people of Oberammagau in southern Germany prayed that they would be spared from the plague, and promised to do something exceptionally devotional in return if they were protected by divine power.

The village was spared in spite of the fact that the plague had spread throughout Europe. Now, as a result, Oberammagau is the home of the famous Passion Play that is performed once every ten years during the Easter season. The performance has been staged, once a decade, for over 300 years.

Here is a reference to the plague written by someone very familiar to American travel fans, including a bit on Oberammagau and its "miracle."

http://www.ricksteves.com/plan/destinations/europe/plague.htm

Rich

BaBi
December 15, 2006 - 02:25 pm
All that rich history of Padua, and what comes to my mind when I hear that name? "I come to wive it wealthily in Padua!" In fact, I hear it as that lively little song from the "Kiss Me,Kate" version. Okay...I promise hereafter to give Padua the respect and consideration it deserves. Particularly Francesco I, who accomplished the incredible feat of forty years rule in those turbulent times.

Babi

Fifi le Beau
December 15, 2006 - 03:51 pm
Robby, #299 Sic transit gloria mundi....better known as 'Fame is fleeting'.

Napoleon Bonaparte's retort: "Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever."

Mostly it was not glory they achieved, but fame. To me fame would be a terror, much worse than obscurity.

Fifi

Justin
December 15, 2006 - 03:58 pm
Padua (Padova) is a seminal center of Renaissance art. Giotto, father of the Renaissance,was hired by the Scrovegni family in 1300 to decorate a new family chapel to be located next to the family palace and on land known to have been the site of a Roman arena. The palace is gone but the Arena Chapel remains intact and a repository for much of the early work of Giotto. The walls of the chapel are completely covered with Giotto's work.

In 1304 Pope Clement issued a Bull granting indulgences for visitors to the Arena Chapel.

The paintings inside the Chapel are frescoes depicting narrative scenes of Jacopo Voragine's story of the Virgin and other scene's described in the New Testament.

Art History is largely the study of significant transitions in art forms and application. Giotto is seminal in the transition of art form from the stylized,flat, two dimensional,characteristic of Medieval painting to realistic forms in realistic settings with realistic themes. He shaped Italian painting for a century-the entire Trecento. His revolution in form an narration had a significant influence on all who followed him.

Pat H
December 15, 2006 - 05:16 pm
here is a link to Giotto's paintings in the Arena chapel that takes some persistance to get to what you want to see.

Giotto paintings

And here is a quicker but less extensive link

quick Giotto

bluebird24
December 15, 2006 - 06:31 pm

winsum
December 15, 2006 - 08:21 pm
and was wowed by the giotto chapel frescos. It's so nice to get colors that are at least CLOSE to what they should be.

claire

Justin
December 15, 2006 - 11:48 pm
Claire: An afternoon spent in the Arena Chapel (possible only in the off season) would thrill you. The colors, even after 700 years, dazzle one. The lapis lazzuli in the ceiling is brilliant. Very little fading has occurred. By contrast the frescoes in the Bardi Chapel in Florence, even after cleaning, leave much to be desired. Those in the lower church at Assissi are dirty and the earthquake in the eighties did not help their condition. The St. Francis series in the upper Church at Assissi are not clearly Giotto's work.

Bubble
December 16, 2006 - 01:46 am
Bubonic plague again?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061215/sc_nm/usa_mountainlion_dc_1

JoanK
December 16, 2006 - 08:06 am
JUSTIN: very interesting discussion of Giotto. Could you post a link to a typical painting BEFORE him, so that we art "dummies" could better appreciate the advances he made?

Scrawler
December 16, 2006 - 09:22 am
It is my understanding that many Italian nobles paid the artists of the time to paint their family chapels in order that they might save themselves from going to hell. Has anyone here heard of this?

winsum
December 16, 2006 - 10:54 am
which ever it was had a stunning dark blue ceiling and the walls and even the tile floors were solid art. double wow.

joan anything from the previous century since they all painted to formula.

Justin
December 16, 2006 - 12:54 pm
Joan: I can identify some examples and if someone with the skills to locate them and post we will have some things to see. as well as talk about.

Paintings from the eleventh century:

A fresco in th apse of Santa Maria,Tahull, Catalonia depicts Mary with an adololescent child enthroned.

There is an illuminated eleventh century manuscript depicting the "life and miracles of St Audomarus". It resides in the Bibliotheque Municipale , Saint Omer, France.

St. Matthew from the book of Lindefarne, is in the British Library, London.

There is a mosaic of Christ enthroned in majesty with saints in the apse of Santa Pudenziana, Rome

The mosaics of Justinian from th apse of San Vitale, at Ravenna.

Simone Martini is a late contemporary of Giotto. He painted in the old Byzantine style. His figures are two dimensional. The painting is called "The Annunciation" Completed in 1333. It is tempera on wood. It hangs in the Uffizi Galeries in Florence.

For comparison lets pull up Giotto's "Lamentation" done in 1305 from the Arena Chapel, in Padua.

Justin
December 16, 2006 - 01:03 pm
Scrawler: The Arena Chapel is one example of a patron of the arts who decorated a chapel in hopes of finding forgiveness for his sins and those of his family. The Bardi chapel at Santa Croce in Florence is another. The Baroncelli Chapel in Santa Croce is another. The Arena Chapel actually was the beneficiary of a Papal Bull granting an indulgence for a visit.

Éloïse De Pelteau
December 16, 2006 - 01:22 pm
I went to the Uffizi Palace once, but I was too ignorant to fully appreciate Giotto at the time, now I only remember seeing the marvalous Duomo and the David in Florence, we stayed only one day.

Justin, Is this it? LAMENTATION

Justin
December 16, 2006 - 01:30 pm
Joan: Pat in 308 gave us "Giotto Paintings" Click on that and under "Life of Christ" select # 36 , the Lamentation. Enlarge it.

There are several new technigues at work in this painting. The figures have volume which is achievd by elementary chiaroscuro. Shadows can be found in the drapes which help to depict depth. The figures farthest away are smaller than those in the foreground indicating a position of depth. There is a diagonal in the painting alos creating an illusion of depth. If you look for things of this nature in Martini , for example, you will not find them.

Justin
December 16, 2006 - 01:39 pm
Yes, Eloise. That's the one. Look how he employs gesture. The Mary at Christ's feet is expressing tenderness that cannot be missed. We are looking at the beginning of the Renaissance in art right here. This is a seminal work. The palette is lighter than those of others of his time. The sky is blue. Not Gold. Figures stand on a level. They do not "go up the page" for depth. Faces are round and shadowed and full.

robert b. iadeluca
December 16, 2006 - 02:27 pm
Giotto

robert b. iadeluca
December 16, 2006 - 02:39 pm
"It is difficult to love medieval Florence, she was so hard and bitter in industry and politics but it is easy to admire her, for she devoted her wealth to the creation of beauty. There, in the very youth of Petrarch, the Renaissance was in full swing.

"It developed in a stimulating atmosphere of business competition, family feuds, and private violence unparalleled in the rest of Italy.

"The population was divided by class war and each class itself was split into factions merciless in victory and vengeful in deteat. At any moment the defection of a few families from one parte to another would tip the scales of power.

"At any moment some discontented element might take to arms and try to oust the government. If successful it exiled the leaders of the beaten party, usually confiscated their property, sometimes burned down their homes.

"But this economic strife and political agitation were not all of Florentine life. Though more devoted to their party than to their city, the citizens had a proud civic sense and spent much of their substance for the common good. Rich individuals or guilds would pay for paving a street, constructing sewers, improving the water supply, housing a public market, establishing or improving churches, hospital, or schools. An esthetic sense as keen as that of the ancient Greeks or the modern French dedicated public and private funds to the embellishment of the city with architecture, sculpture, and painting, and to the interior adornment of homes with these and a dozen minor arts.

"Florentine pottery led all Europe in this period. Florentine goldsmiths decorated necks, bosoms, hands, wrists, girdles, altars, tables, armor, coins with jewelry or intarsia or engraved or embosssed designs unsurpassed in that or any other age."

Robby

winsum
December 16, 2006 - 03:43 pm
abstraction alive and well in the fourteenth? not trecento?. . anyway the thirteen hundreds. . .still confused as to what to call centuries. this is the twenty first century but the preceding numbers say two thousand.

Giotto is in the fourteenth? wha is the tricentro anyhow as to numbers.

sheesh. I remember that Masaccio who used real perspective follows giotto shortly? memory isn't good here. but his people were all

DIT individuals and giottos were still pretty generic. sooo. ??? the

edit; I HAD TO go to Napal to do it but the numbers i the paintings there are 1015 and the reference is eleveth century so the numbers precede the name or title or the one with the th on the end. whew.

winsum
December 16, 2006 - 03:47 pm
here is the first one's link

paintings from the eleventh century The nmnbers are like this 1015AD so . . .

Justin making a link is easy really. I'll sent you the code e-mail.

claire

winsum
December 16, 2006 - 04:11 pm
A fresco in th apse of Santa Maria,Tahull, Catalonia depicts Mary with an adololescent child enthroned.

mary with child enthroned

mary with child enthroned

Traude S
December 16, 2006 - 04:19 pm
CLAIRE, tre (three) cento (hundred - from the Latin centum) = three hundred. Trecento is short for mille tre cento = one thousand three hundred. We call it the 14th centrury.

Similarly, the Quattrocento is the 15th century
Cinquecento is the 16th century
Seicento is the 17th century
Settecento is the 18th century, and so forth

ÉLOÎSE, thank you for that spectacular link, and JUSTIN for the explanation. So many memories flooding back ...

winsum
December 16, 2006 - 04:21 pm
is this the one at Tull?

Mary with the adolescent child? it's a lovely thing. lots of other pictures of the place but the text is spanish. a tripping point for some of us.

winsum
December 16, 2006 - 04:26 pm
so anything in the number 1300AD is i the fourteenth century? I'm visual will remember this. 1300AD is fourteenth century

I hope. . .claire

Malryn
December 16, 2006 - 04:28 pm
For 60 days and nights of extreme pain, or sleep induced by morphine and its derivatives to reduce that pain, I sang,"I'll be home for Christmas."

And I am.

Hi, honey, I'm home!

Mal

Justin
December 16, 2006 - 04:48 pm
Mal; Yippie

Pat H
December 16, 2006 - 04:49 pm
Mal, hooray! We welcome you with open arms.

robert b. iadeluca
December 16, 2006 - 04:50 pm
Terrific, Mal!!!

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 16, 2006 - 04:52 pm
Please note that familiar phrase in Post 322 -- "class war" -- that we keep seeing over and over. Any comments about Durant's remarks in that post?

Robby

Traude S
December 16, 2006 - 05:06 pm
MAL, WONDERFUL - you're home at last. Welcome back!

winsum
December 16, 2006 - 05:20 pm
what a day hooray huh. . .claire

Pat H
December 16, 2006 - 05:43 pm
I don't see a lot to say about "class war" from that particular post except that obviously it was extremely important.

But I am very interested in the civic and aesthetic sense of the citizens. The thought that it would be a good idea for someone of means to improve the sewers or decorate the city is somewhat impressive.

Traude S
December 16, 2006 - 05:53 pm
Durant says "The population was divided by class war ...", "...each class was split into factions ...", "... the defection of a few families from one party to another would tip the scales of power."

Accordingly it would stand to reason that what the Florentine people of the time were fighting about had less to do with the respective party , i.e. Guelphs and Ghibellines, and more with the economical status of the factions within each.

Class has always been a determining factor, rightly or wrongly, and it still is, whether we admit it or not. Durant certainly seems to have been preoccupied with it.

Justin
December 16, 2006 - 06:27 pm
Joan: Claire in 327 brought up an image that is typical of a period prior to Giotto. The images are flat, two dimensional, and without life. Simone Martini was contemporary with Giotto but late in Giotto's life. His Byzantine style can be seen in the "Annunciation" in the Uffizi in Florence.

Frybabe
December 16, 2006 - 08:07 pm
re: post 247


I've been busy with getting my house packed for the move - mostly by myself. It is amazing how many things you can accumulate in a short time. 20 boxes of books and still counting.


Anybody recommend further reading regarding Rienzo? He sounds fascinating.


Margie

EllieC1113
December 16, 2006 - 09:04 pm
I just read through several passages from the book and the posts that followed them. I agree with the people in this group who see the artist as often someone who is ahead of his time, and who moves civilization forward. I also believe that non-visual artists, including writers, move civilization forward, although in the early modern period of European history, I assume that a very small percentage of the citizenry was literate. Scholars are also instrumental in creating a vision of the world that people can use in "making progress," however that term may be defined. I would assume that there were many forward thinking individuals in universities and, perhaps, in monasteries. Also in government, business, and military operations.

I am thinking that people meeting in groups informally (like us) and discussing issues, complaints, "what's wrong," etc. probably were instrumental in generating some new ideas to move things forward. My daughter, who is studing history, cautions me not to assume that things are progressing in any historical period in a "forward" direction. I disagree with her, having seen much progress in my own lifetime, in areas like: science, medicine, technology, civil rights, and the general dissemination of ideas/information to wider and wider groups of people. I assume that most historical periods result in progress in the sense of, whatever happens, people try their best to cope and gain in knowledge. Often by trial and error.

Fifi le Beau
December 16, 2006 - 09:59 pm
Thanks Pat H for the link to Giotto's paintings. I looked up 'Flight into Egypt' to see the colors Justin told us about. This painting is the first reproduction Durant chose for the book, in black and white of course.

The second reproduction is of Martini's 'The Annunciation'. Durant says in his letter to the readers that he saw all the work reproduced in the book 'first hand', so the ones he chose for the book are his 'first hand' selections.

As for class war, Durant says this in Envoi, "First of all, the Renaissance (limiting this term to Italy) was based materially upon the economic exploitation of the simple many by the clever few."

"The wealth of papal Rome came from the pious pennies of a million European homes, the splendor of Florence was the transmuted sweat of lowly proletaires who worked long hours, had no political rights, and were better off than medieval serfs only in sharing in the proud glory of civic art and the exciting stimulus of city life."

Fifi

Justin
December 17, 2006 - 12:24 am
Jacob Burckhardt, 1850 author of "The Civilization of the Renaissance" says, "The Renaissance is prelude to the Enlightenment and characterized not by the rebirth of Classic antiquity but by man's discovery of the world and of man by a profound change in man himself."

Once again an historical voice defines the Renaissance in terms of a change in man rather than a rebirth of classical antiquity.

Michelet, a French historian in a later generation, agreed with him.

JoanK
December 17, 2006 - 04:58 am
This is great!

Here for comparison is Saint Matthews from the Lindisfarne (sp?) Gospels:

SAINT MATTHEWS -- STYLE BEFORE GIOTTO

JoanK
December 17, 2006 - 05:35 am
I posted the above before I read all the posts, and saw that some early links had already been posted. But the differences that Giotto introduced are very clear. Thanks Justin and all. This is very exciting.

I think of the classical periods (Greece and Rome) in terms of statues and architecture, not paintings. But of course there was painting as well. I don't remember any attempt at depth in those classical paintings I've seen, but they do seem more advanced than the 11th century in the expression of emotion.

JoanK
December 17, 2006 - 05:36 am
MAL IS BACK! Now we will really rock.

Éloïse De Pelteau
December 17, 2006 - 05:41 am
RENAISSANCE

"The term renaissance, meaning literally "rebirth," was first employed around 1855-8 by Jules Michelet to refer to the "discovery of the world and of man" in the 16th century. The great Swiss historian Jakob Burckhardt, in his classic The Civilization of the Renaissance in Italy (1860), expanded on Michelet's conception. Defining the Renaissance as the period between the Italian painters Giotto and Michelangelo, Burckhardt characterized the epoch as nothing less than the birth of modern humanity and consciousness after a long period of decay.v"

robert b. iadeluca
December 17, 2006 - 05:43 am
"Giotto di Bondone dominated the painting of the fourteenth century as Petrarch dominated its poetry.

"The artist rivaled the poet in ubiquity. Painter, sculptor, architect, capitalist, man of the world, equally ready with artistic conceptions, practical devices, and humorous repartee, Giotto moved through life with the confidence of a Reubens and spawned masterpieces in Florence, Rome, Assisi, Ferrara, Ravenna, Rimini, Faenza, Pisa, Lucca, Arezzo, Padua, Verona, Naples, Urbino, Milan.

"He seems never to have worried about obtaining commissions. When he went to Naples it was as the palace guest of the king. He married and had ugly children but this did not disturb the placid grace of his compositions or the cheerful tenor of his life. "He leased looms to artisans at twice the oridinary rental. However, he told the story of St. Francis, the apostle of poverty in one of the outstanding works of the Renaissance.

"He was still a youth when Cardinal Stefaneschi called him to Rome to design a mosaic -- the celebrated Navicella, or Little Ship, showing Christ saving Peter from the waves. It survives, considererably altered, in the vestibule of St. Peter's, inconspicuous above and behind the portico colonnade. It was probably the same Cardinal who commissioned the polyptych preserved in the Vatican.

"These products show an immature Giotto, vigorous in conception, weak in execution. Possibly a study of Pietro Cavallini's mosaics in Santa Maria in Trastevere and his fresco in Santa Cecilia, helped to form Giotto in those Roman years. While the naturalistic sculpture of Nicolo Pisano may have moved him to turn his eyes from the works of his predecessors to the actual features and feelings of living women and men.

"Said Leonardo da Vinci:-'Giotto appeared and drew what he saw' and the Byzantine petrifaction faded from Italian art."

Robby

EllieC1113
December 17, 2006 - 06:52 am
Communicating with this group has now caused me to remove a book on Giotto's art from my bookshelf, which I will look at when I finish a project that I had planned for this morning. I love the concept of Byzantine Petrifaction in Roman art. I don't know anything about Petrarch's poetry, so I will surf the net for a few minutes before I do my project. Thanks for piquing my curiosity.

JoanK
December 17, 2006 - 07:05 am
ELLIE: piquing is our middle name.

robert b. iadeluca
December 17, 2006 - 07:14 am
Ellie:-JoanK is absolutely right! That has been one of the wonderful aspects of this SofC discussion group for the past five years. We not only enjoy commenting on Durant's remarks but find ourselves constantly taking side tracks related to the topic at hand.

Of course, your nasty discussion leader brings you back to the topic at hand if we wander too far afield.

Glad you are "piqued!"

Robby

BaBi
December 17, 2006 - 07:33 am
Byzantine petrifaction! What a wonderful description of those stiff, if colorful works. I never cared for that period of art, and am cattily pleased at learning of Da Vinci's comment.

If I could visit only one city in Italy, it would have to be Florence. However many attractions Rome and Milan hold, (and Padua) Florence was the Queen of art.

Babi

EllieC1113
December 17, 2006 - 08:55 am
Thanks for piquing my curiosity about Giotto. I am reading my book, The World of Giotto (Time-Life publishers). He is in sync with me regarding his thoughts on poverty. Even though I like many of the Franciscan ideas, the thought of "marrying lady Poverty," is idiotic to me. Giotto wrote that to commend poverty is hypocritical; it is a condition that leads to thievery, violence, corruption and the dishonor of women, and the society that condones it is the weaker for it. I couldn't have said it better. I prefer abundance. I love Giotto's works, especially the Arena Chapel. Magnificent.

Scrawler
December 17, 2006 - 10:27 am
Welcome back Mal!

Traude S
December 17, 2006 - 11:48 am
BUEBIRD, regarding your question about Carrara in # 309 : Massa Carrara is a northern province in the region of Tuscany (Toscana) famous for centuries for the incomparable quality of its marble, used by Michelangelo, amng others. The word "carrara" means quarry. Massa is the capital of the province.

I'm glad we took time to view Giotto's work. Since Durant had mentioned also Donatello, it is likely that we'll have the opportunity to also view representative works by this great sculptor.

winsum
December 17, 2006 - 11:57 am
If I were to visit italy I'd have to go there first. My art history teacher gave it so much time I felt like I had already been there and there are specific things I'd HAVE TO SEE.

but . . .I've never made it to Europe and it's too late now. frustrating -- but look, we have the internet and I use it as if it were my own personal gallery.

Claire

winsum
December 17, 2006 - 11:59 am
this is the site for Donatello

note the expressive handling in the late works. blows me away.

claire

winsum
December 17, 2006 - 12:12 pm
below the handle they suddenly become more three dimensional. I wonder what happened here. did he do all the panels or . . . ?

mature style sacristy door panals

Claire

Malryn
December 17, 2006 - 03:03 pm

A TIMELY PAINTING BY GIOTTO.

Justin
December 17, 2006 - 03:42 pm
Mal: How wonderful to have you back finding things for us to look at. So much of Giotto is in full bloom in the Flight Into Egypt. In the Flight painting one can see two groups in obvious conversation. What could be more natural? That setting had never before been tried. It's clear. It works.

The appearance of volume in Giotto may well come from the Pisano family sculptures of the previous century. Nicola and Giovanni Pisano Did a baptistry and a pulpit in Pisa in about 1250 or so. If they can be retrieved we will see how inspirational they may have been for the young Giotto. I think Nicola did the work at Pisa Cathedral and Giovanni did a pulpit at Sant' Andrea in Pistoia. These sculptures are deep reliefs.

In the 1330's Andrea Pisano was commissioned to do door panels at the Baptistry of the Cathedral in Florence. The resulting low relief bronze panels clearly reflect influence from the work of Giotto. The reliefs are panels linked in a narrative form typically Giottonian in character. One can see that in this period ,at least, sculpture and painting are feeding off each other. Giotto learns from Pisano and Pisano learns from Giotto.

winsum
December 17, 2006 - 06:06 pm
did the south doors of the baptistry in Florence.

here

the baptistry

bluebird24
December 17, 2006 - 06:13 pm
did not know carrara is not a man

bluebird24
December 17, 2006 - 06:13 pm

robert b. iadeluca
December 17, 2006 - 06:13 pm
"Moving to Padua, Giotto painted in three years the famous frescoes of the Arena Chapel.

"Perhaps at Padua he met Dante. He may have known him in Florence. Vasari, always interesting and sometimes accurate, calls Dante the 'close companion and friend' of Giotto and ascribes to Giotto a portrait of Dante that formed part of a fresco in the Florentine Bargello or Palace of the podesta.

"The poet, with exceptional amiability, celebrates the painter in The Divine Comedy."

Robby

bluebird24
December 17, 2006 - 06:16 pm
how are Giotto and Michelangelo different? what are sacristy doors? where does Pisano come in?

winsum
December 17, 2006 - 06:48 pm

winsum
December 17, 2006 - 07:21 pm
Giotto and Dante and article re the mental form of the medieval man.and a timeline for Giotto

Claire

too bad it wouldn't let me in the url address and even in the basic part. the only way to view this is to copy and paste.

http://tinyurl.com/y4wuwy

this works it's cached.

winsum
December 17, 2006 - 07:43 pm
same face on the four women

winsum
December 17, 2006 - 07:45 pm
http://tinyurl.com/yfmel7

claire

Justin
December 17, 2006 - 07:54 pm
I wonder if it's possible to find the fresco in the Bargello that Durant refers us to. Giotto sometimes used friends to model for personalities in his narrative paintings. I am unaware of any portrait work by Giotto but character modeling was certainly one of his practices.

In my personal recollection of the Bargello in Florence there are very few frescoes. The entire building is devoted to sculpture. If there is a fresco, it should stand out.

winsum
December 17, 2006 - 08:04 pm
http://tinyurl.com/yh83bs the padua arena chapel

EllieC1113
December 17, 2006 - 10:47 pm
Claire, thank you for your comment on the expressive handling in the late works of Donatello. I went to the link, and I was particularly drawn to the St. Mary Magdalen and the Lamentation Over the Dead Christ. There is such an earthy, realistic emotional quality to both. No fancy idealization of the personal, human qualities of Mary Magdalen. And the emotional pain in the Lamentation. I think about the stylized Pieta at St. Patrick's Cathedral, which is close to where I live in NYC, and which I have seen many times in my visits to the church. I like the Donatello much better, even though the Pieta is magnificent.

Justin
December 17, 2006 - 11:20 pm
Claire: If you look at the marriage and wedding procession of the Virgin you will see the same lady in all roles. Giotto was hard up for models. The Virgin in the marriage and wedding procession paintings is very pregnent as is her buddy behind her, the maid of honor. The pregnancy is very appropriate for someone else did the deed. Joseph is supposed to look like the innocent good guy who is saving face.

Suggestion: We will deal with Donatello when he comes up on the green quotes.If we talk about him now we will be blank when Robby introduces him.

Justin
December 18, 2006 - 12:10 am
Santa Maria Novella, Or San Michelle, Santa Croce, and Santa Maria del Fiore are four churches in Florence that host the works of Giotto and his Giottesque followers. It was the practice of wealthy families, some of whom engaged in unpleasant activities, to buy chapels in these four churches and to decorate the chapels with the works of leading painters. Giotto did the work at Santa Croce on the Bardi Chapel. (The Bardi were big in banking among other enterprises).

At some point in the intervening centuries,the Giotto frescoes were white washed and left. About 1850 the underlying frescoes were rediscovered. The white wash was removed and the fresco repainted by unknown hands. In 1960, I was standing in the chapel watching conservatores clean and attempt to reach the level of Giotto's hand.

Today, the work of Giotto in the Bardi at Santa Croce is more evident than it has been in many centuries but it continues to be retouched in places with gaps.Light in the chapel is poor yet the colors of the fresco take one's breath away. Giotto's light palette is dominant.

winsum
December 18, 2006 - 01:21 am
Robby can rest easily....that is until I get a new magnifier , . . .can't go chasing around the net ahead of the game this way.

claire

robert b. iadeluca
December 18, 2006 - 05:33 am
"In 1318 two banking families, the Bardi and the Peruzzi, engaged Giotto to tell in frescoes the stories of St. Francis, St. John the Baptist, and St. John the Evangelist, in the chapels that they were dedicating in the church of Santa Croce in Florence.

"These paintings were whitewashed in later years. They were uncovered in 1853 and were repainted so that only the drawing and the composition are Giotto's.

"A like fare befell the celebrated frescoes in the double church of St. Francis at Assisi. That hilltop shrine is one of the major goals of pilgrimage in Italy and those visitors who come to view the paintings attributed to Cimabue and Giotto seem as numerous as those who to honor or solicit the saint.

"It was probably Giotto who planned the subjects and drew the outlines for the lower frescoes of the Upper Church. For the rest he seems to have confined himself to supervising the work of his pupils.

"These frescoes of the Upper church narrate in detail the life of St. Francis. Christ Himself had rarely received so extensive a painted biography. They are masterly in their conception and composition, pleasant in their gentle mood and flowing harmony.

"They end once and for all the hieratic stiffness of Byzantine forms. But they lack depth and force and individuality. They are graceful tableaux without the color of passion or the blood of life.

"The frescoes in the Lower Church, less mangled by time, mark an advance in Giotto's power. He seems to have been directly responsible for the pictures in the Magdalen Chapel while his aides painted the allegories illustrating the Franciscan vows, of poverty, obedience, and chastity.

"In this suplex church the legend of Francis gave a mighty stimulus, almost a new birth, to Italian painting and generated a tradition ideally completed in the work of the dominican Fran Angelico."

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
December 18, 2006 - 09:40 am
See Giotto's every one of the 25 breathtaking frescoes 'Legend of St. St. Francis' HERE

MAGNIFICENT

Scrawler
December 18, 2006 - 09:44 am
I was watching a History Channel program last night about religion in the movies. It was very interesting and as they discussed the various movies through the years I could see that the movies not only portrayed Christ and other religious models but they also depicted the time period that the movie was made in. It got me wondering whether or not the paintings at the time of the Renaissance were also in part about the viewpoints of that time period or the way that the people who commissioned them wanted the period to be remembered. I read somewhere that many of those who commissioned the paintings also wanted to be painted into the painting as well.

winsum
December 18, 2006 - 11:49 am
scrawlers the sponsors on the paitings wanted that. to appear. there was one, I remember Fra Lipo Lippe whose face always appeared somewhere but he was the ARTIST who painted himself into every picture. . . a joke? even for the most religious of sponsors. In one of themm I remember his rosey little face i the left hand corner expanding out onto the painted frame. so much for ego. it dominated the whole thing.

claire not editing. . .but watching the hands. this is my area of interest so must hang around and make some noise.

Justin
December 18, 2006 - 02:17 pm
Yes, Scrawler. When we reach the Quattrocento you will see many donors intruding in paintings.

Pat H
December 18, 2006 - 03:00 pm
Before we get too far from the Black Death, here is a totally frivolous take on it.

yersina pestis plush doll

robert b. iadeluca
December 18, 2006 - 05:49 pm
Any comments about Durant's remarks in Post 375? - the Bardi family? the Peruzzi family? the double church? Cimabue? Upper and Lower church? Magdalen Chapel? Fra Angelico?

Robby

kiwi lady
December 18, 2006 - 06:16 pm
I think I am a Philistine. I think the paintings were probably remarkable in their time but they do lack life and expression. Mind you I am a Van Gogh and Monet fan. Maybe that colours my appreciation of the frescos.

Traude S
December 18, 2006 - 06:50 pm


ROBBY,
the Bardis were bankers. I'm not sure why Durant thought the Petruzzi family noteworthy.

Cimabue died in 1302, thus barely makes it into the Trecento.
Fra Angelico (Fra = short for Frater) was a Domenican monk and is known in Italy as Il Beato Angelico .

Justin
December 18, 2006 - 07:48 pm
See comments in 373 on the Bardi and Giotto.

The Basilica of San Francesco at Assisi was built by Saint Francis and his brothers into the UMbrian hillside of Perugia. . The life of Francis was that of an ascetic. A biographical movie is available today. I think it is called Brother Sun, Sister Moon. However there is on the walls of the basilica a series of frescoes depicting his life. Those in the lower church were accomplished by Giotto at a young age. Those in the upper church are not by Giotto but may be those of his workshop or followers. Some scholars think Giotto may have laid an outline of each composition and his apprentices completed the work. Some one in the group has already posted the images from both levels so we should be able se them.

Cimabue was Giotto's teacher.His work is clearly pre-Giotto. However I do not wish to brush him off with an old school shrug. He was a very capable painter and did some commendable things.

Justin
December 18, 2006 - 08:02 pm
Fra Angelico and Fra Lippi come along a century later and I hesitate to talk about these two at this point for that reason. It may be enough to say that what Giotto started at Assisi culminated a century later in the paintings of Fra Angelico.

Bubble
December 19, 2006 - 02:53 am
The latest about Fra Angelico

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15713482/

http://www.abcgallery.com/A/angelico/angelico.html

Bubble
December 19, 2006 - 03:05 am
"Without books the development of civilization would have been impossible. They are the engines of change, windows on the world, "Lighthouses" as the poet said "erected in the sea of time." They are companions, teachers, magicians, bankers of the treasures of the mind, Books are humanity in print."
-Arthur Schopenhauer , philosopher (1788-1860)

I feel very lucky that SoC was written and that I can participate here for a better understanding of this 'chef d'oeuvre'.

robert b. iadeluca
December 19, 2006 - 03:36 am
The Decameron

robert b. iadeluca
December 19, 2006 - 03:55 am
"It was in Florence that Italian literature achieved its first and greatest triumphs.

"There Guinizelli and Cavalcanti, in the late thirteenth century, gave the sonnet its finished form. Not there, but longing for it, Dante the Florentine struck the first and last true note of Italian epic poetry. There Boccaccio composed the supreme work of Italian prose and Giovanni Villani wrote the most modern of medieval chronicles.

"Visiting Rome for the jubilee of 1300, and moved like Gibbon by the ruins of a mighty past, Villani thought for a while of recording its history. Then, judging that Rome had been sufficiently commemorated, he turned back to his native haunts and resolved 'to bring in this volume all the events of the city of Florence and give in full the deeds of the Florentines, and briefly the notable affairs of the rest of the world.'

"He began with the Tower of Babel and ended on the verge of the Black Death in which he died. His brother Matteo and his nephew Filippo continued the story to 1365.

"Giovanni was well prepared. He came of a prosperous mercantine family, commanded a pure Tuscan speech, traveled in Italy, Flanders, and France, served thrice as prior and once as master of the mint. He had for those times an uncommon sense of the economic bases and influences of history. And he was the first to salt his narrative with statistics of social conditions.

"The first three books of his Chroniche Fiorentine are mostly legend. But in later books we learn that in 1338 Florence and its hinterland had 105,000 inhabitants, of whom seventeen thousand were beggars and four thousand were on public relief, that there were six primary schools, teaching ten thousand boys and girls, and four high schools, in which six hundred boys and a few girls studied 'grammar' (literature) and 'logic' )philosophy).

"Unlike most historians, Villani included notices of new books, paintings, buildings. Seldom has a city been so directly described in all the departments of its life.

"Had Villani brought all these phases and details into one united narrative of causes, phenomena, personalities, and effects he would hve transformed his chronicle into history."

Your comments, please?

Robby

Scrawler
December 19, 2006 - 07:49 am
I saw another History Channel program last night about UFOs and in the course of the program they showed several Renaissance Paintings where in the background were objects that looked like images of flying saucers. Does anyone know why these images were painted in these religious pictures?

JoanK
December 19, 2006 - 09:57 am
PAT: I don't know which is more amazing -- that someone sells a doll of the Black death microbe, or that someone BUYS it. I wonder too.

I didn't know til I lived in New Mexico for a summer that bubonic plague (the Black death) still exists in the South west desert. Someone died of it while I was there. Tony Hillerman wrote a detective story, based on the people who search for and try to eradicate it in our dessert.

JoanK
December 19, 2006 - 10:01 am
CAROLYN: I like Monet, too. But the glory of living in this age is that, just as we are not limited to liking only one book, or one kind of book, so we can appreciate a wide range of different kinds of art, enjoying what they have, and knowing that what they lack can be found elsewhere. If I could only look at one artist, these wouyldn't be candidates. But that is not the case.

Putney
December 19, 2006 - 02:29 pm
Pisa University was founded in 1338,..and Boccaccio presented his Decameron in 1348..and the Black Death was happening at about the same time..Also within those years, the Bankruptcy of the Bardi and Peruzzi banking houses, was quite significent..

robert b. iadeluca
December 19, 2006 - 06:13 pm
"Settling down in Florence in 1340, Boccaccio continued to pursue woman in life and verse and prose.

"The Amorosa Visione was dedicated to Fiammetta and recalled in 4400 lines of terza rima the happier days of their liaison. In a psychological novel, Fiammeta, the bastard princess is made to tell the story of her deviation with Boccaccio.

"She analyzes the emotions of love, the torments of desire and jealousy and desertion, in Richardsonian detail.

"And when her conscience rebukes her infidelity she imagines Aphrodite chiding her for cowardice:-'Make not thyself so timorous in saying, 'I have a husband and holy laws and promised faith forbid me these things. These are but vain conceits and frivolous objections against the power of Eros. For like a strong and mighty prince he plants his eternal laws, not caring for other laws of lower state, he accounts them base and servile rules.'

"Boccaccio, abusing the power of the pen, ends the book by having Fiammetta proclaim, to his glory, that it ws he who had deserted her not she who deserted him. Returning to poetry, he sang in the Ninfale Fiesolano the love of a shepherd for a priestess of Diana. His triumph is described in fond detail with some enthusiasm spared for natural scenery.

"This is almost the working formula of The Decarmeron."

Your comments, please?

Robby

Traude S
December 19, 2006 - 07:31 pm
When I was in Italy so many years ago, we were studying Dante, Petrarca and Boccaccio in tandem for commonalities, and for the influence Dante had upon Petrarch and Boccaccio.
All three had muses: Dante his Beatrice, Petrarch had Laura, and Boccaccio had Fiammetta.

The women were the poets' inspiration; that is what brought forth the very best in them and made their work immortal. It is doubtful that Dante ever even talked with Beatrice. We know he later married.
Petrarch fathered children, we know. And Boccaccio had quite possibly the most intimate relationship with his muse, Fiammetta. In fact, it is possible to assume that he was himself in a group of young people who fled Florence for the hills of Fiesole, some 5 miles away, to live by the motto "carpe diem".
At the end of the Decameron he had Fiammetta proclaim that it was he who deserted her not the other way around - magnified glory.

Perhaps we should briefly reflect on what Durant means by "in Richardsonian details".

P.S. "Beatrice" in Italian is pronounced 'Be-a-tree-dsche'. The stress is on the third syllable.
In "Fiesole", the 'i' is pronounced as in "in", Fiaysole, and the "e" at the end is not silent (as in "once", for example), but very much heard, as in "O Sole mio".

Justin
December 19, 2006 - 07:51 pm
Richardson was the English author of what might well be described as th first English novel. He wrote two works that I am familar with. One called Pamela and one called Clarissa. Each is a series of letters between characters in the novel. They describe a relationship in the most intimate detail.

Traude S
December 19, 2006 - 08:18 pm
JUSTIN, thank you. Yes, it was Samuel Richardson.

A famous name, as names go. Several centuries later there was Dorothy Richardson, first to write a novel in English using the streasm-of-consciousness method.

gaj
December 19, 2006 - 10:11 pm
Could Shakespeare's DARK LADY be his muse?

Justin ~ Did Richardson write Pamela and/or Clarissa in poetry? Or were they in prose? Could Durant be talking using a comparison from the future of when the work he is describing was written? Or am I doing midnight rambling? lol

Justin
December 19, 2006 - 10:44 pm
Richardson's novels are written in prose. They were written in the 1740-50 time period. Durant wrote "Renaissance" two cnturies later.

Justin
December 19, 2006 - 11:49 pm
Ginny Ann. Boccaccio wrote The Decameron about 1350.

robert b. iadeluca
December 20, 2006 - 04:51 am
"In Florence, according to Matteo Villani, three out of five of the population died between April and September of 1348.

"Boccaccio estimated the Florentine dead at 100,000, Machiavelli at 96,000. These are transparent exaggerations, since the total population hardly exceeded 100,000.

"Boccaccio opens The Decameron with a frightful description of the plague:--

'Not only did converse and consorting with the sick give the infection to the sound, but the mere touching of the clothes, or of whatsover had been touched or used by the sick, appeared of itself to communicate the malady. A thing which had belonged to a man sick or dead of the sickness, being touched by an animal in a brief time killed it. Of this mine own eyes had experience.

'This tribulation struck such terror to the hearts of all that brother forsook brother, uncle nephew, oftentimes wife husband. Nay (what is yet more extraordinary and well nigh incredible), some fathers and mothers refused to visit or tend their very children as though they had not been theirs.

'The common people being altogether untended and unsuccored, sickened by the thousand daily and died well nigh without recourse. Many breathed their last in the open street whilst other many, for all they died in their houses, made it known to the neighbors that they were dead rather by the stench of their rotting bodies than otherwise. Of these and others who died the whole city was full.

'The neighbors, moved more by fear lest the corruption, of the dead bodies should imperil themselves than by any charity for the departed, brought the bodies forth from the houses and laid them before the doors where, especially in the morning, those who went about might see corpses without number. Then they fetched biers, and some, in default thereof, they laid upon a board. Not was it only one bier that carried two or three corpses, nor did this happen but once. Nay, many might have been counted which contained husband and wife, two or three brothers, father and son, and like. The thing was come to such a pass tht folk reckoned no more of men that died than nowadays they would of goats.'

"Out of this scene of desolation Boccaccio pictures his Decameron as taking form."

I ask myself how we "enlightened" people would act in a similar circumstance. Would it be "me first" time?

Robby

Rich7
December 20, 2006 - 07:41 am
Supposedly the origin of the courteous retort "God bless you" after one sneezes took place during the plague years. Sneezing was the very first symptom that a plague infected person displayed.

Not everyone who sneezed had the plague, but as sacred insurance, anyone nearby would call for God's blessing on the sneezer.

Rich

Éloïse De Pelteau
December 20, 2006 - 07:53 am
"What you don't feel, you will not grasp by art,
Unless it wells out of your soul
And with sheer pleasure takes control,
Compelling every listener's heart.
But sit - and sit, and patch and knead,
Cook a ragout, reheat your hashes,
Blow at the sparks and try to breed
A fire out of piles of ashes!
Children and apes may think it great,
If that should titillate your gum,
But from heart to heart you will never create.
If from your heart it does not come."
(from Faust I)


Every artist knows that art is pure emotion, when it becomes a business it looses its appeal because business is not emotional, it is only for profit. But true artists sometimes can do both IF they have practiced their art for a long period of time and know how to transmit emotion. Artists who painted frescoes in cathedrals knew how to paint emotion and their salary was equal to the scope of their talent.

Traude S
December 20, 2006 - 09:58 am
ROBBY, a challenging question, very much à propos in our time, as we are living with the scourge of AIDS and are periodically warned of the dangers, and a possible pandemic, of he Avian Flu.

Still, I fear that in desperate, extreme circumstances comparable to what Boccaccio described, we might not react much differently - despite the "enlightenment" we have since acquired. Heaven help !

ÉLOïSE, that is a wonderful rendition in English of Goethe's poem. He is so difficult to translate. Thank you!

gaj
December 20, 2006 - 01:32 pm
Leprosy, plague, cholera, & HIV AIDS to name a few diseases that caused the public to fear the sick. I don't think we have progressed, just have better PR to explain our fear.

Justin
December 20, 2006 - 02:28 pm
Sorry, Eloise. Art is not pure emotion. It is process. Art is in the process of cooking. Art is in the process of writing, dancing, painting, playing an instrument. Art is doing. What does the artist get from doing? He/she gets satisfaction. How's that, Claire?

Justin
December 20, 2006 - 03:30 pm
Art from the consumer side is often viewed as the product itself,that is; the meal, the essay, the composition, the music, being "art." I think the consumer has a right to be emotional if he/she chooses. However,after one has examined twenty-five or more madonnas something other than emotion must be required to make a selection for one's own walls. They can't all be super or emotion provoking.

winsum
December 20, 2006 - 04:16 pm
YES you got it. . . Claire

BaBi
December 20, 2006 - 04:39 pm
Don't you feel that in the disasters of more recent times, people have gathered to do all they could to help? The sick, whether of AIDS, cholera, or whatever, do receive medical help. Lepers are no longer untouchables.

A widespread epidemic might very well require massive quarantine of stricken areas. I hope we never have to discover how we would conduct ourselves in such a case. I am quite sure, however, that I would not abandon those I care about, and I'm sure others here would say the same.

Babi

robert b. iadeluca
December 20, 2006 - 06:14 pm
"In his thirty-seventh year Boccaccio was not a dogmatic Christian.

"Contrast his tolerance with the bitter bigotry of Dante who condemns Mohammed to perpetually repeated vivisections in hell. In the second story of The Decameron the Jew Jehannat is converted to Christianity by the argument (adapted by Voltaire) that Christianity must be divine since it has survived so much clerical immorality and simony.

"Boccaccio makes fun of asceticism, purity, the confessional, relics, priests, monks, friars, nuns, even the canonization of saints. He thinks most monks are hypocrites and laughs at the 'simpletons' who give them alms.

"One of his most hilarious stories tells how the friar Cipolla, to raise a good collection, promised his audience to display 'a very holy relic, one of the angel Gabriel's feathers, which remained in the Virgin Mary's chamber after the annunciation.'

"The most obscene of the stories tells how the virile youth Masetto satisfied an entire nunnery. In another tale Friar Rinaldo cuckolds a husband, whereupon the narrator asks:-'What monks are these that do not do thus?'

"The ladies in The Decameron blush a bit at such stories but enjoy the Rabelaisian-Chaucerian humor. Filomena, a girl of especially nice manners, tells the tale of Rinaldo and sometimes, says Boccaccio's least happy image, 'the ladies kept up such a laughing that you might hve drawn all their teeth.'

"Boccaccio had been reared in the loose gaiety of Naples and most often thought of love in sensual terms. He smiled at chivalric romance and played Sancho Fanza to Dante's Don Quixote.

"Although twice married he seems to have believed in free love. After recounting a score of stories that would today be unfit for a male gathering, he makes one of the men say to the ladies:-'I have noted no act, no word, in fine nothing blameworthy, either on your part or on that of us men.'

"In concluding his book the author acknowledges some crsiticism of the license he has used and especially because 'I have in sundry places written the truth about the friars.'

"At the same time he congratulates himself on his 'long labor, thoroughly accomplished with the aid of the Divine favor.'"

Are we here reading about a Renaissance from the Age of Faith wherein religious belief is no longer so strong?

Robby

Justin
December 20, 2006 - 07:25 pm
Oh! There is no question in my mind. That is exactly what is happening here. Man is beginning to recognize that he has some power independent of Roman spiritualism.I think this attitude change has much to do with the decline of feudalism and the movement of people to the towns. The Crusades also contributed to empowering people. Once one feels empowered the next step is to throw off the chains. That is what Boccaccio has done. I think Chaucer to some extent and even Dante is doing the same. Petrarch, by supporting imperialism, is taking similar action.

In the arts, the Church is still the favored patron, but independently wealthy nobles are now supporting the arts. The rise of the Medici and the Bardi families are an expression of that independence.

EllieC1113
December 20, 2006 - 09:47 pm
I love the film "Brother Sun, Sister Moon" about St. Francis and St. Clare. Zeffirelli presents a very inspiring view of the lives of these two saints. I have read a fair amount about the life of St. Francis, and I believe he was both a marvelous spiritual leader and a major neurotic. There is a dialogue with his spiritual director in which St. Francis firmly has the irrational idea that he is to be damned. The spiritual director repeatedly disputes this notion, reiterating, on the contrary, that Francis is a saintly individual.

I believe that the dominance of the Church was gradually decreasing at the time of the text which we are studying. The remarkable thing is that many religious traditions are still going strong, in spite of the prevalence of secular humanism in academia. I just saw a presentation on C-Span, in which some scholar did a survey of people who regulary attend religious services in our culture. Apparently, in comparison to the general population, such individuals contribute more often and a greater proportion of their resources to charities than do those who do not attend regularly. These are` of course, statistical data, and there are many non-churchgoers who show great charity. Although all human institutions show immense fallibility, the church's appeal to one's conscience and the instruction to practice virtue have been beneficial to many adherents.

Mallylee
December 21, 2006 - 03:56 am
One way to appreciate the time and thought that go into the making of a work of art is to attempt it myself, i.e. playing the piano, making a poem, drawing or painting. My mistakes inform me as much as my successes, about what is art and what is rubbish

Mallylee
December 21, 2006 - 03:59 am
What an extraordinary use of the word 'obscene'!Is Durant prudish?

robert b. iadeluca
December 21, 2006 - 04:11 am
"The Decameron remains one of the masterpieces of world literature.

"Its fame may be due more to its morals than to its art but even if immaculate it would have merited preservation. It is perfectly constructed -- superior in this respect to The Canterbury Tales. Its prose set a standard that Italian literature has never surpassed, a prose sometimes involved or flowery, but for the most part eloquent and vigorous, pungent and vivacious, and clear as a mountain stream.

"It is a book of the love of life. In the greatest disaster that had befallen Italy in a thousand years Boccaccio could find in his vitals the courge to see beauty, humor, goodness, and joy still walking the earth. At times he was cynical, as in his unmanly satire on women in the Corbaccio but in The Decameron he was a hearty Rabelais, relishing the give and take, the rough and tumble of life and love. Despite caricature and exaggeration the world recognized itself in the book.

"Every European language translated it. Hans Sachs and Lessing, Moliere and La Fontaine, Chaucer and Shakespeare, took leaves from it admiringly.

"It will be enjoyed when all of Petrarch's poetry has entered the twilight realm of the praised unread."

Has anyone here read The Decameron or is it part of the "praised unread?"

Robby

hats
December 21, 2006 - 04:24 am
For me, it is the "praised unread." I would love to read part of it. Is it very long?

Bubble
December 21, 2006 - 04:30 am
I read some of it, in French. I also read some chapters of Gargantua and Pantagruel. I suppose I was too young to appreciate it.

Obscene can mean "offensive to morality or decency; indecent". Surely some part of Decameron are that. If I remember rightly, this book was (might still be) in the Index of the Catholic Church. Bubble

Fifi le Beau
December 21, 2006 - 09:35 am
The following link will lead to the text of The Decameron in Italian or English. I read it many years ago and did not find it obscene, but in its time and place, there were those who found it so.

Having just finished a book that showed how this country dealt with books and speech viewed by 'some' as obscene, we had our own 'Ministry of Vice and Virtue'.

http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Italian_Studies/dweb/dweb.shtml

Fifi

hats
December 21, 2006 - 11:54 am
Fifi, thanks.

Justin
December 21, 2006 - 01:44 pm
I first read parts of Decamaron on a cross country train trip many years ago. It is really a short story collection much like the Arabian Nights, and the Canterbury Tales. Chaucer may well have chosen his format after exposure to Decamaron. I recently picked up the book again and was pleased to find the tales fun to read and a good source for modern dress rewriting however, folks are not very concerned today about horny monks and nuns. My edition is illustrated and I can remember being wary on that train trip of people wanting to look over my shoulder at naked, prancing, females. 1946 was not a good year for nudity.

EllieC1113
December 21, 2006 - 03:26 pm
Praised unread for me, too. I remember my brother who was determined to read Gargantua and Pantagruel. I think it took him a year or two to finish it. We all applauded. I remember, as an undergraduate, struggling with The Iliad. Found it repetitive and hard to get through. My daughter said she liked the Iliad, which, I think she read in high school. The praised unread. I think that is why Cliff's notes exist. If I had time, I might read the Decameron. My copy of the book we are discussing came into my local library. I can probably hold onto it for awhile, with renewals every 3 weeks.

robert b. iadeluca
December 21, 2006 - 04:20 pm
Siena

robert b. iadeluca
December 21, 2006 - 04:31 pm
Check the GREEN quotes in the Heading to see where we are and what follows.

"Siena would have challenged the claim of Florence to have begotten the Renaissance.

"There too the violence of faction raised the temperature of thought and communal pride nourished art. The woolen industry, the export of Sienese products to the Levant and the grade of the Via Flaminia between Florence and Rome gave the city a moderate affluence. By 1400 the squares and principal streets were paved with brick or stone.

"The poor were rich enough to stage a revolution. In 1371 the woolworkers besieged the palazzo Pubblico, broke down its doors, expelled the businessmen's government, and set up the rule of the riformatori. A few days later an army of two thousand men, fully equipped by the mercantile interests, made its way into the city, invaded the quarters of the proletariat and slew men, women, and children without discrimination or mercy, spitting some on the lance, hacking others with the sword.

"The nobility and the lower middle class came to the rescue of the commons, the counterrevolution was defeated, and the reform government gave Siena the most honest administration that the citizens could recall. In 1385 the rich merchants rose again, overthrew the riformatori, and expelled four thousand rebel workmen from the city.

"From that date industry and art declined in Siena."

Comments?

Robby

Justin
December 21, 2006 - 05:12 pm
Great City for horse racing.

Mallylee
December 21, 2006 - 05:13 pm
Bubble, no doubt you are right. But the use by Durant of the word 'obscene' ij the context still looks to me as if Durant is being condemnatory

bluebird24
December 21, 2006 - 06:24 pm
have not read Decameron http://www.comune.siena.it/museocivico

Traude S
December 21, 2006 - 06:59 pm
In Italy Boccaccio's work is called "Il Decamerone", and we studied it at some length, lo these many years ago. But the professor concentrated on the name (from the Greek, as Durant told us), the style and matters of form. We had no assignments of any chapter.

In fear of the Plague, seven Florentine young women and three young men leave the city for a country house in the hills a short distance from Florence. A king or queen is chosen for each day who must propose a specific theme. Within that framework, each of the people present must invent and narrate one story on that theme. After ten days and ten times ten "novelle", the group returns to Florence.

The preamble to the book represents one of the most detailed sources about the spread of the Plague of the time.

The country home still stands; it is located half-way between Florence and Fiesole on the Via Boccaccio and today houses the department of the European University Institute (EUI).

Justin
December 21, 2006 - 07:00 pm
Siena, unlike Florence, retained its many medieval characteristics and Lorenzetti's frescoes,an allegory of Good Government in the Publica, give one an image of what life was like in those days.

EllieC1113
December 21, 2006 - 10:42 pm
My family historian mentions that many historians focus especially on the oppression of the working man by the capitalists. I definitely see many historical situations through that lens, myself, and I am kind of surprised that the nobles and the lower middle class sided with the workers. Why would the nobles take the side of the workers?

robert b. iadeluca
December 22, 2006 - 04:15 am
Ellie:-My guess is that the nobles were not so much for the workers as against the pope.

This is my guess.

Any further comments about Siena?

Robby

Mallylee
December 22, 2006 - 06:28 am
Ellie I wondered about that too. Perhaps the nobles in question had social, hobnobbing type bonds with the workers, and may have been not much different from the workers, except that the nobles owned titles to a small parcel of land. The nobles may have been just as exploitable as the workers by powerful commercial consortia.

I dont know, I'm just speculating. But it is recorded that local nobility in the foothills of the Pyrenees at the times of the Popish machinations against the Cathars, were every bit as much part of the local culture as the workers

Montaillou

BaBi
December 22, 2006 - 06:46 am
From the situation described by Durant, I assumed the nobles and the lower middle class were appalled at the wholesale slaughter being carried out by the hired mercenaries, and acted to stop it. The resulting reform government gave Siena 'the most honest administratin it could recall'.

When the wealthy merchants again seized control, to forward their own interests, the result was a decline in industry and art in Siena. They had, after all, expelled some 4000 workmen. Very shortsighted of them. Lesson again repeated: a government that is fair to all classes is more successful than one that caters to a favored group.

Babi

Traude S
December 22, 2006 - 07:07 am
With respect, Durant's use of "proletariat" strikes me as too modern for the situation described. But this is his interpretation.

Scrawler
December 22, 2006 - 08:35 am
I'd have to agree with you Trude. That also struck me as odd. But I suppose it was on his mind when he wrote this particular piece.

Fifi le Beau
December 22, 2006 - 12:53 pm
Here is the etymology of the word 'proletarian'.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=proletarian

Fifi

Justin
December 22, 2006 - 03:22 pm
The nobility in Siena tended to be landowners and thus their interests were agricultural and not quite the same as the businessmen of the city whose interests were wool manufacturing. My best guess is there was conflict between these groups. The nobles were probably concerned that businessmen were taking over the reins of government, thus reducing the power of the nobility. Workers were equally concerned because as is often the case they were exploited and resented the power of the merchant. I doubt there was a partnership in the conflict against the merchants but clearly the nobles and the workers were both against the merchants and the action of one would benefit the other.

I think the word "proletariat" designating common people is not modern but was adopted by the Leninists and hence became associated with Lenin. Durant may have associated it with the worker's revolution. However, the word derives from Roman sources and has been used in other contexts. We have a similar problem with the word "gay."

Traude S
December 22, 2006 - 08:58 pm
Of course there is no question as to what Durant meant, nor the etymology (from the Latin proletarius, n. m. = citizen of a lower class). Indeed, many, many more quotidian English words than we realize are derived from Latin.

I voiced reservation in this case because Durant chose to apply a now perfectly-understood term that was not actually used until centuries later - in the age of Karl Marx. There was also the Spanish philosopher and essayist Ortega y Gasset (1883-1956) who wrote "La Rebelión de las Masas" = The Revolt of the Masses.

Now let me explain the distinction between a translator and an interpreter.
Absolute accuracy and fidelity to the original paper is required of a translator who translates a written document (e.g. letters, a book) word for word from a different language, say a book from French into English, from Italian into English, etc. etc.

But when it is a question of facilitating a conversation between people who speak DIFFERENT languages, live, in the moment, the interpreter steps in. His/her boundaries are clearly much broader, often indistinct, and sometimes questionable, depending on the loyalty of the interpreter.
To reiterate, a translator translates the written word, the interpreter the spoken word.

That this in my opinion very important distinction is not understood here has been a source of frustration for me, and when I hear that so-and-so survived an attack in enemy territory but his "translator" was killed, I'm in despair.

winsum
December 22, 2006 - 10:00 pm
interesting distinction. . . . claire

Justin
December 22, 2006 - 10:28 pm
Traude: The distinction is, in my understanding of the language,as you say but why is it relevant in the conversation at this juncture?

Mallylee
December 23, 2006 - 03:39 am
Very interesting Traude, and I will certainly remember this

winsum
December 23, 2006 - 03:42 am
I find it preferable to what Durant is feeding us. politics power class warfare and so long ago we can't understand it very well. we have our own interpretations which are applicable to the present but not to the past where there were other variables to consider. we are hardly in a position to TRANSLATE.

Traude S
December 23, 2006 - 07:45 am
It was not my intention to go off on a tangent. Rather, I elaborated on the brief reservation I had previously expressed.
I wanted to explain why this particular term seemed incongruent to me.
I made a small linguistic point, voiced my personal opinion, but was not trying to attribute relevance to either. (It's not my style.) There is no reason to dwell on this further.

robert b. iadeluca
December 23, 2006 - 07:59 am
C'mon folks! It's Holiday time. Everybody loves everybody.

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
December 23, 2006 - 08:14 am
Christmas celebrates the birth of Jesus and I want to offer my Holiday Wishes to everyone here and also to silent participants. Jesus' birth has been the most influential event in the world since the beginning of time and it is celebrated all over the world. It is a time of peace and love and I for one appreciate the sharing with family and loved ones especially because I have fewer of those coming than those past. Enjoy it while you can.

MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYBODY

Scrawler
December 23, 2006 - 08:58 am
Happy Winter Solstice to one and all!(A day late but who's counting.)

Mallylee
December 23, 2006 - 11:43 am
Traude when we are studying history,the difference between interpretation and translation is hardly tangential.The place of interpretation in historiography is well worth considering, because it's interpretation that makes historiography an art.I am glad to have read your comment

Justin
December 23, 2006 - 02:07 pm
Traude: I guess, I said that badly. I was simply concerned that I had missed something, not that the comment was inappropriate. The comment was fine. I think the problem for me is being 83. Sorry about that.

MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE. ENJOY THE HOLIDAYS.

robert b. iadeluca
December 23, 2006 - 02:32 pm
If being 83 is a problem, where does that leave me?

Robby

Malryn
December 23, 2006 - 06:06 pm

Frisky, smart and vital, ROBBY. So is JUSTIN. Merry Christmas, guys.

Mal

Malryn
December 23, 2006 - 06:06 pm

And DOLLS !

3kings
December 23, 2006 - 06:29 pm
"Absolute accuracy and fidelity to the original paper is required of a translator who translates a written document (e.g. letters, a book) word for word from a different language, say a book from French into English, from Italian into English, etc. etc."

I should think accuracy and fidelity is required of both 'translator' and 'interpreter'.

I think a translator does not translate a text word for word, neither does an interpreter. Should they do so, the result would be a meaningless mish-mash. They try to translate the meaning of a phrase, not literally word for word.

Any word may have two or more meanings, and it is a translator's task to choose the appropriate meaning before selecting the right words in the other language. ==Trevor

Malryn
December 23, 2006 - 06:53 pm

Jeez Louise, as I used to say, I've been home a week, and myself aka me is having trouble adjusting to the change in diet from bland, no-spices or herbs pap in the nursing home to ordinary seasoning here. Woe is I ! (How's that, TRAUDE?)

I have spent the week straightening out my apartment after an invasion by my "I love to clean kitchens" daughter-in-law; coming in to SeniorNet, reading and doing a very small amount of writing. The straightening out took first priority, since I couldn't even find my pots and pans! A bit paranoid or something, I thought for a while that they'd been thrown away by people who tell me I can't ever cook any more. (That's what they think!) Why didn't these generous people, Serena and her friend, do my piled-up laundry instead of hiding my favorite kitchen tools and utensils in weird places and taking clothes off my bedroom vanity and hiding those, too? Unanswered questions haunt me, grumble grumble.

Anyway, I'm very glad to be home on the eve of Christmas. I hand-delivered greeting cards here in this building and sent a few others. The letter-carrier, whose name is Joe Ryan, I found out, sent me a card and a very nice note in response to the small amount of money in a card I left for him in appreciation of his unstinting hard work. He's very serious and unapproachable-looking, but we've become pals over the year.

I wrapped the four little gifts I bought for my family here while on a wheelchair jaunt to the nearby supermarket when I suppose I should have been home coddling myself and my recovering burns.

The two gifts I bought at a yard sale for 50 cents for my two grandchildren here in PA will stay unwrapped, I think. How does one wrap an old-fashioned truck that digs foundations for buildings and a cheerleading baton?

My gift for all of you is abundant and heartfelt wishes for good health and good cheer in the coming year -- and this:

"Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it."

~Santayana

(That means always check the burners on your stove before you boil water to make sure they've been installed properly and won't knock your cooking pot over when it is touched by a spoon!)

AND

"Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought."

~Albert Szent-Gyorgi, Nobel prize winner for physiology or medicine, 1937

Affection and cheerful good will to all from a very grateful Mal

robert b. iadeluca
December 23, 2006 - 07:03 pm
Feisty Mal -- It's so good to have you back again!! Settle back, take a few deep breaths, and enjoy your Christmas.

Robby

winsum
December 23, 2006 - 08:25 pm
I watched Tony Brown interview the author. the gospels according to him were introduced three hundred years after his death and consisted of stories told by ordinary people who INTERPRETED what they knew or thought they knew, much of it made up. Here is the juncture of art and history.

merry christmas all.

Claire

Traude S
December 23, 2006 - 09:49 pm
TREVOR (and ROBBY), I really don't want to take any more time away from our study here, but I must respond in this case to avoid apparently existing misconceptions.

TREVOR, as a translator and graduate interpreter in several languages I can tell you unequivocally that a translator does render every text word for word. How could he/she NOT in an official document of any kind? glossing over vital details at will? and even more so in a book where an author's acceptance and success abroad depends on the faithful rendition of his work in another language? How would an author feel about phrases, paragraphs omitted or altered, and at whose discretion ??

In short, translating is a desk job; it takes time AND requires fluency not only in the language which is being translated but equally in the language into which the work is being tranlated.

The same requirements exist for interpreters, except that he/she works in a live situation, in the here and now, and makes possible a conversation between people, in a forum, for example, who do not speak the other's language.

There, the task it to express as accurately as possible the THOUGHT being expressed by either party. In an ongoing flow of conversation there is no time for word-for-word; it is the idea, the concept that counts, and that must be put across.

Clearly, an interpreter's role is different from a translator's but every bit as important - except that it is broader, precisely because of the live environment, the quick back-and-forth. The interpreter is in fact in control of a situation to a certain extent because he/she can change the presentation, add nuances, even body language.

Under any and all circumstances the interpreter is a vital "player" whose importance, alas, is insufficiently understood here, if at all, much less appreciated. But then, the knowledge of foreign languages is sadly undervalued here too.

I'm sorry, ROBBY, I just had to try and clarify things.
JUSTIN, of course there's no problem. Let's just go on, by all means.

Malryn
December 24, 2006 - 04:01 am
Peace on earth, good will to everyone

Joy to the world !

robert b. iadeluca
December 24, 2006 - 05:43 am
And with Mal's wonderful (and diplomatic) wish, I will take two days off from posting Durant's words. Celebrate in your own fashion, post here if you wish, and join us Tuesday morning (ET) as we prepare to enter Milan.

Robby

winsum
December 24, 2006 - 09:25 am
and have a happy day

Claire

GingerWright
December 24, 2006 - 10:03 am
http://www.jacquielawson.com/viewcard.asp?code=1088110667861

Justin
December 24, 2006 - 04:27 pm
Mal is Back. Mal is Back. Joy to the world. Mal is Back.

Malryn
December 25, 2006 - 06:19 am

,Merry Christmas, everybody!!!

winsum
December 25, 2006 - 08:58 am
http://tinyurl.com/y7h8x3

gonna have to read that one sounds delightful.

claire

bluebird24
December 25, 2006 - 05:25 pm
http://www.abcgallery.com/L/lorenzetti/alorenzetti.html click on picture you want to see

bluebird24
December 25, 2006 - 05:47 pm
Hi! I love your card! Thank you:)

bluebird24
December 25, 2006 - 05:51 pm

gaj
December 25, 2006 - 06:49 pm
Merry
Christmas

GingerWright
December 25, 2006 - 06:54 pm
Bluebird Glad you liked it as much as I did thats why I wanted to share it with all of you. thanks for letting me know you liked it to.

BaBi
December 26, 2006 - 07:38 am
"Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought."

I loved this quote Mal gave us. Isn't it the unique viewpoint that makes reading, and talking with others, so interesting? And along those lines, isn't every historian's work a matter of interpretation, to a greather or lesser extent? Including, of course, Durant.

Babi

Scrawler
December 26, 2006 - 08:47 am
Do you think that because the Byzantine Empire was also a cultural empire that when the empire fell it influenced the Renaissance?

winsum
December 26, 2006 - 08:55 pm
I really loved the Madonna of the Milk and this one

a city scene

Thank you very much for the link.

Claire

Justin
December 26, 2006 - 11:43 pm
Claire; The work of the Lorenzetti brothers (there were two) is secular. It is essentially the first time in many centuries that two significant painters chose secular iconography for display in a prominent public location. Four Lorenzetti secular frescoes are displayed in the Palazzo Publico in Siena. They depict the effects of good and bad government.The City scene you posted is a detail of a larger work called "Good Government".

Simone Martini, who also was a Sienese, typically, used the old stereotypical hammered gold background with flat two dimensional figures in most of his paintings but is thought to be the first to break toward characterization. A work in the Lower church at Asissi is thought to resemble a prior bishop. He was shooting at St Martin (the one with the cloak story) but hit a bishop.Well, why not? Martini in this midlife work had been exposed to Giotto's work of fifty years earlier and I suppose it pulled him out of his "gold two d" period. Some of his earlier altarpieces in gold were quite beautiful.

Traini is also worth looking at. He did a piece in Pisa called Death Warmed Over with a secular flavor. A party of horsemen out for a sunday drive come upon an open coffin. They hold their noses as they pass. But the iconography depicts the essence of the Church in the middle ages. "Remember folks, don't sin for this will be you at some time in the too near future. Hell is not far away, even for dead royalty."

winsum
December 27, 2006 - 12:37 am
here is Traini's Thomas Aquinus tryptic a portrait.my screen grab a little off center. . . isn't that secular? . . .still looking

Claire

edit: and his Triumph of Death is it a fresco?

edit: yes it is and this is just a detail.

winsum
December 27, 2006 - 12:54 am
Renouncing the sword by Simon Martini.

robert b. iadeluca
December 27, 2006 - 11:15 am
Milan

robert b. iadeluca
December 27, 2006 - 11:26 am
Back to Durant --

"In 1351 Petrarch returned to Avignon.

"Probably at Vaucluse he wrote a pretty essay, De vita solitaria, lauding the solitude that he could bear as a healing medicine but not as a sustaining food.

"It was shortly after this return to Avignon that he brought the medical fraternity down upon his head by exhorting Pope Clement VI, who was in failing health, to beware of doctors' prescrsiptions. 'I have always begged my friends and ordered my servants, never to let any of these doctors' tricks to be tried on my body but always to do the exact contrary of what they advise.'

"In 1355, exasperated by some therapeutic fiasco, he composed an intemperate Invective Against a Physician. He was not much better disposed towrd lawyers 'who spend their entire time in disputations over trival questions. Hear my verdict upon the whole pack of them. Their fame will die with their flesh and a single grave will suffice for their names and their bones.'

"To make Avignon completely distasetful to him Pope Innocent VI proposed to excommunicate Petrarch as a necromancer on the ground that the poet was a student of Virgil. Cardinal Talleyrand came to Petrarch's rescue but the air of saintly ignorance that now perfumed Avignon sickened the laureate. He visited his monk brother Gherardo, wrote a wistful treastise De otio reliogiosortum (On the Lesiisure of Monks) and toyed with the idea of entering a monastery.

"But when an invitation came to him to be the palace guest of the dictator of Milan, he accepted with a readiness that shocked his republican friends."

Robby

EllieC1113
December 27, 2006 - 02:38 pm
I have just enjoyed reading all of the posts since my last perusal of this discussion. I am glad to see that Petrarch was writing about solitude. My favorite writer, Thomas Merton, writes about constantly seeking greater and greater solitude. And he was a Trappist monk, and I think the rule at his monastery was to use hand signals rather than talk, at least some of the time. I myself meditate on solitude often. Here are some of my musings. Merton found time and energy to write many fine works, in part, because he was able to function well when in solitude. I have a creative female friend of my age who luxuriates in solitude and who accomplishes a tremendous amount, as well. I am always looking for balance. When in solitude, I accomplish a lot. I am working on a writing project that is moving forward nicely because I allocate time to getting it done (in solitude). I discover that hanging out socially is a tremendous reward for my time spent in solitude. Writing to this group is very rewarding, because of both the intellectual and social interaction. There is something in me that hugely prefers company to solitude. I think I would do better and feel more self-actualized if I could tolerate greater amounts of solitude. There is zero danger of my becoming isolated--I have a very large number of relatives, family members, friends and acquaintances.

Petrarch contemplated entering a monastery and decided against it, perhaps, in part because of too much solitude.

robert b. iadeluca
December 27, 2006 - 04:50 pm
My computer is definitely sick so don't get worried about me if I have "disappeared" for a few days.

If I am gone for more than one day, perhaps Mal will take over.

Robby

BaBi
December 27, 2006 - 04:51 pm
In the 'Triumph of Death' work, there is a figure in the upper left hand corner that is not a part of the noble party of horsemen. I wonder who/what he represents? My first assumption is Death, but that may be premature.

Considering the state of medicine in those days, I applaud Petrarch's determination to avoid the doctors. Some of the methods and 'medicines' used were horrendous, and there was many a soul that died not from illness or wound, but from medical treatment of them.

Babi

Evelyn133
December 27, 2006 - 04:53 pm
Holiday Greetings to all of you!

I was unable to visit this discussion for the past two weeks and finally looked in the morning of December 25 and found I was 208 posts behind. I have been playing catch-up ever since.

Thank you so much, Eloise and Justin, for all the links to those wonderful sights with all the marvelous frescoes. I was especially taken with Giotto's work. The lapis lazuli ceiling was breathtaking.

Traude, I appreciate your historial background information.

And, to the rest of you, your comments are very interesting and have given me a lot to think about.

Thank you, Robby, for leading this very thought provoking discussion. I'm just lovin' it.

Evelyn

bluebird24
December 27, 2006 - 06:34 pm
google does not have him:(

winsum
December 27, 2006 - 07:04 pm
Justin's post 471 is the key to Simone Martini and google has him here

http://tinyurl.com/wm7at

Claire

I've been following Justin around chasing down his links for him and me and you and everyone.

Traude S
December 27, 2006 - 07:20 pm
BLUEBIRD, Simone Martini (note the "e" at the end of his first name) was an Italian painter in the era presently under discussion. Please check Google again. Martini is there.

I was surprised at first about Durant's mention of Talleyrand ("Cardinal Talleyrand came to Petrarch's rescue."), thinking automatically of the much better known - indeed famous - Charles Maurice de Talleyrand-Périgord (1754-1838), who became a friend of Austrian Prince Metternich. Both were important participants at the Congress of Vienna (1814-1815) after Napoloen's final defeat at Waterloo. There, the final dispositions were made of the land Napoloen Bonaparte had conquered.

In the present context, Durant means Cardinal Talleyrand, also called Cardinal de Périgord, 1301-1364. Another example of the incredibly complicated details of European history, and surely one of the phrases that one could read over all too easily.

winsum
December 27, 2006 - 08:54 pm
There are so many names and dates in HISTORY. What they mean to us now is obscure so it's nice to have an explanation of what happened THEN.

Claire

Justin
December 27, 2006 - 10:03 pm
In Traini's Death fresco there is a figure in the upper left sometimes identified as "death' and other times as a "holy hermit." What ever one calls him, he unrolls a scroll demonstrating the folly of pleasure and the inevitability of death- a spoil sport of the first order.

Justin
December 27, 2006 - 10:07 pm
Traude, One of my favorite recolections of Tallyrand is a description proferred by Napoleon- something about a silk stocking.

EllieC1113
December 27, 2006 - 10:58 pm
Traude, thank you for your explanation of the two Talleyrands. Very helpful. I have to confess that when I first joined this group, I was confusing Petrarch with Plutarch. Now I have that distinction clear, and they, also, are two separate people who lived in two different time periods.

Justin, if we sacrifice all the greatest pleasures of life in order to "be a good person" we may miss out on a lot of enjoyment. I have noticed that many of the people that I know who want to appear very virtuous are also depressed. I prefer the idea of self-interest, rather than too much self-sacrifice. Self-interest, if it takes into account the wishes of the other people concerned, is a good thing. I think it is important to behave ethically, but too much self-sacrifice in the name of virtue can result in being taken advantage by others and "people pleasing." A good formula for attaining depression.

Justin
December 28, 2006 - 12:34 am
Ellie: Recognition of the joys of self-interest is a characteristic of the Renaissance. Traini was commenting upon a Medieval Christian concept. Today, we generally, acknowledge the benefits of self-interest however, I suspect, there are still a few of us who worry that we will pay a penalty for too much pleasure. Those I have known who fall into that category have tended to be, as you suggest, either patsies or depressed.

Traude S
December 28, 2006 - 01:28 pm
ELLIE, your post brought to mind Ayn Rand's "The Virtue of Selfishness". It is a relatively slim volume compared to her tomes "The Fountain Head" and "Atlas Shrugged".
I bought the book (co-written by Nathaniel Branden) because the title intrigued me; I read as much about Rand as possible, and also about her acolyte, lover and collaborator, Nathaniel Branden (whose rejected wife also penned a book about Rand. She was mentor to both).

Surely, not everything we do is done for self-interest alone; that's what I like to think.

JUSTIN, I don't remember what Napoleon said about Talleyrand's silk stocking. He, the emperor, born on the mountainous island of Corsica, wore a uniform most of his life and quite possibly made fun of Talleyrand and his formal attire, including the powdered wigs.

winsum
December 28, 2006 - 01:40 pm
It pleases me to like me. So that means that at times when I really want to, it pleases me to please you. Claire

Traude S
December 28, 2006 - 03:34 pm
CLAIRE, exactly. THAT's the idea !!

winsum
December 28, 2006 - 04:22 pm

Traude S
December 28, 2006 - 07:07 pm
CLAIRE, my post was a reply to your # 489.

JUSTIN, BUBBLE was good enough to provide the quote about Talleyrand. Napoleon said: "Ah, tenez, vous êtes de la merde dans un bas de soie" = You are like sh.. in a silk stocking.

It is no wonder that Napoleon felt hostility toward Talleyrand - one of the men, after all, who decided in 1815 how to dismantle the French Empire. This is another example of "sic transit gloria mundi". Napoleon had six more years to live in exile and may have tirelessly rued some of his grave strategical mistakes, e.g. the failed campaign against Russia. Again, that historic lesson was lost on posterity.

Justin
December 28, 2006 - 07:50 pm
Traude:Hitler's generals must have been aware of the fatal flaw in Napoleon's war plan even if Hitler was not aware. Certainly they informed him before he opened that front. I have not read anything of Hitler's state of mind at the time. He must have been thoroughly convinced of Germany's invincibility.Leaders occasionally are carried away by their own power. Gerald Ford apparently told our own invincible leader that attacking Iraq would be a mistake.He did it anyway. Again, that historic lesson was lost on posterity. History is for historians apparently, not for people in power.

Fifi le Beau
December 28, 2006 - 07:51 pm
From Robby's #475

Pope Innocent V1 has proposed to excommunicate Petrarch as a necromancer.

Necromancer means "To conjure the spirit of the dead for purpose of revealing the future."

Petrarch is complaining about doctors and lawyers of his day and the Pope accuses him of conjuring up spirits of the dead. He could have accused him of 'Discordianism' which would have been more accurate, since Petrarch was disagreeing with the Pope.

I never knew that dissent was considered occult until I went to Christian answers for their take on necromancer. It seems 'discordianism' is an occult practice.

So is 'Prognostication'. Since the word means to predict or foretell, I don't see how it got on the list, since all religions use it liberally.

Of course 'horoscopes' made the list. Too bad for Ronnie and Nancy.

What about Secret societies.....there go the country clubs.

Glass looking......so long Hollywood.

Kabbalah........Madonna's out.

Chaos magic.......... 'shock and awe', now the whole country is headed for hell.

Enchantments.......We've lost the teenagers.

Free Mason......There go the founding fathers.

There are over eighty items listed as occult and since I don't practice any of them, unless 'discordianism' is counted, which I take for dissent as Petrarch practiced it.

The entire era was filled with predictions, divinations, incantations, spiritualism, fetishism, (all labeled occult) and the church, synagogue, and mosque were the leaders of its promotion in their writing and worship.

They feared its power in the public though, so they all must have been true believers in the occult.

They invented demons, devils, witches, and other incantations, so to wipe out the occult, one would first have to wipe out the religion and its hierarchy of prognosticators.

Fifi

Malryn
December 29, 2006 - 06:57 am

That's a terrific post, FIFI. I've been a fan of yours for some time.

I'm here, folks, and will post from the book soon. I bought it when I bought The Age of Faith, but have moved and can't find it, so I ordered a copy with speedy shipping. It should be coming soon.

My burns are healing nicely, but asthmatic bronchitis came along to plague me. If it ain't one durned thing, it's another, I swear!

Mal

Justin
December 29, 2006 - 01:01 pm
When the Pope accuses Petrach of Necromancy it is much like the kettle calling the pot black (or white or whatever).

BaBi
December 29, 2006 - 02:24 pm
'Discordianism' is a new word to me, and I didn't find it in the dictionary. I assume it refers to the sowing of discord, which could also be defined as 'troublemaker'.

Of course, I suppose it depends on one's point of view, but having known people who made trouble whenever and wherever possible out of sheer malignity, I could make a case that the word suggests more than simply disagreeing with the head man.

Babi

bluebird24
December 29, 2006 - 05:46 pm

EllieC1113
December 29, 2006 - 06:15 pm
Hello. Whenever I hear the expression "secret societies," I think about these weird markings that would appear on the building steps of the University of Virginia, which my daughter attended as an undergraduate. After a few years devoted to law school and to passing the bar exam for the State of Virginia, she is now back at UVA, getting a Ph.D. in legal history. Anyway, visiting there again conjures up these mysterious markings. When she graduated a few years ago, the UVA president presented some kind of award to a person from, I swear, an "unnamed secret society." It was a strange experience to hear a president of a major university indulge in this "mystery." They probably donate a lot of money, so the academics go along with the nonsense/mystery. I'm sure the organization(s) have a long and obscure past.

Justin
December 29, 2006 - 08:00 pm
Ellie: Describe the wierd markings a little more fully, please.

Traude S
December 29, 2006 - 08:13 pm
What is especially astonishing to me about this quote from Durant is the reference "...Pope Innocent VI proposed to excommunicate Petrach as a necromancer on he ground that the poet was a student of Virgil (!!)
Does this mean that, by inference, this pope accused Virgil himself of necromancy? Or was it rather a manifestation of "the air of saintly ignorance that perfumed Avignon" (and) "sickened the laureate ?"

There is something frightening (to me) about the enormous power of the Catholic Church to keep the faithful (and even their thinking) under control by excommunication, or only the threat thereof.
On necromancy check
http://www.themystica.com/mystica/articles/n/necromancy.html

EllieC1113
December 29, 2006 - 09:08 pm
There are numerous staircases to important buildings on the UVA grounds on which a very large letter Z is drawn. It's all over the grounds of the university. Like on a well-known building called the Rotunda. Also library staircases.

winsum
December 29, 2006 - 10:30 pm
this looks like it might be relevant

http://tinyurl.com/ye68qd

has to do with science and philosophy

Justin
December 29, 2006 - 11:33 pm
"Z" is used in so many contexts that it is difficult to find a meaningful connection for UV. "Z" is the 6th letter of the Greek alphabet so it might stand for a powerful fraternity. "z" is one of the standard unknowns and might well symbolize a group wishing to be anonymous. There are many scriptural as well as literary references and any of these might apply but more information is needed to be selective. I'll bet the University will be helpful if asked..

Malryn
December 30, 2006 - 02:32 am

Z is the mark of

ZORRO!

winsum
December 30, 2006 - 04:27 am
UV is also University I can understanf why knowledge is the basic theme and that they would want to decorate with it. not a secret society. claire

Rich7
December 30, 2006 - 07:01 am
Mention of the "Z" Society at the Univ of Virginia in Wikipedia:

"A number of secret societies at the University, most notably the Seven Society, Z Society, and IMP Society, have operated for decades, leaving their painted marks on University buildings. Other significant secret societies include Eli Banana, T.I.L.K.A., the Purple Shadows (who commemorate Jefferson's birthday shortly after dawn on the Lawn each April 13), and the Rotunda Burning Society (who commemorate the Great Rotunda Fire). Not all the secret societies keep their membership unknown, but even those who don't hide their identities generally keep most of their good works and activities far from the public eye."

Rich

Rich7
December 30, 2006 - 07:05 am
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z_Society

Note what happens when a woman walks over the "Z" on the footbridge. Stay away from that footbridge, ladies.



Rich

BaBi
December 30, 2006 - 07:45 am
Be comforted, TRAUDE. The power and authority of the Catholic Church today is not what it was in the past. Catholics are practicing birth control despite the Church's rulings. Bishops are refusing to abide by directives they disapprove. The RC Church is not seen in the light it once was.

Good research, RICH. Now that is my idea of what a 'secret society' should be.

Babi

Scrawler
December 30, 2006 - 09:59 am
"The Rotunda at the University of Virginia was designed by Thomas Jefferson as the architectural and academic heart of his community of scholars, or what he termed the "academical village." As the phrase implies, learning was for Jefferson an integral part of life. The academical village is based on the assumption that the life of the mind is the pursuit of all participants in the University, that learning is a lifelong and shared process, and that interaction between scholars and students enlivens the pursuit of knowledge." ~ University of Virginia - Rotunda History

If I remember correctly Jefferson was a Mason so wouldn't those markings be of Masonic nature?

robert b. iadeluca
December 30, 2006 - 10:58 am
I have just had my computer upgraded from Windows 98 to XP and other changes. Be patient with me until I find where the heck I am.

Robby

Malryn
December 30, 2006 - 11:42 am

BACK TO DURANT

The ruling family in Milan bore the name Visconti from having often filled the post of vicecomites, or archepiscoal judges. In 1311 the Emperor Henry VII appointed Matteo Visconti his vicar in Milan, whic, like most cities in northern Italy, loosely acknowledged itself as part of the Holy Roman Empire.

Though Matteo made serious blunders he governed so ably that his descendants held poower in Mklan till 1447. They were seldom scrupulous, often cruel, sometimes extravagant, never stupid. They taxed the people heavily for the numerous campaigns that brought most of northwestern Italy under their rule, but their skill in finding competent administrators and generals brought victory to their arms and prosperity to Milan.

To the woolen manufactures of the city they added a silk industry; they multiplied the canals that extended the city's trade; they gave to life and property a securiity that made their subjects forfetful of liberty. Under their tyranny Milan became one of the richest cities of Europe; its palaces, faced with marble, lined avenues paved with stone.

With Giovanni Visconti, handsome, indefatigable, ruthless or generous at need or whim, Milan reached its zenith. Lodi, Parma, Crena, Piacenza, Brescia, Bergamo, Novara, Como, Vercelli, Alexandria, Tortona, Pontremoli, Asti, Bologna acknowledged his rule, and when the Avignon popes contested his claim to to Bologna, and visited him with excommunication, he fought Clement VI with courage and bribery, and with 200,000 florins won Bologna, absolution and peace. (1352).

He paid for his crimes with gout, and adorned his despotism with the patronage of poetry; learning and art. When Petrarch, arriving at his court, asked what duties would be expected him, Giovanni replied handsomely: "Only your presence, which will grace both myself and my reign."

winsum
December 30, 2006 - 11:46 am
UPGRADE HELL. enjoy!!!

gaj
December 30, 2006 - 12:47 pm
"He paid for his crimes with gout, and adorned his despotism with the patronage of poetry; learning and art."

Were the artists grateful for Matteo Visconti's patronage or were they fearful of him? His eating habits set him up for gout. His suffering with it probably wasn't any comfort for the over taxed people.

winsum
December 30, 2006 - 01:41 pm
many of which we think of as healthy.

http://tinyurl.com/yk9f7g

Claire

Justin
December 30, 2006 - 01:47 pm
Good work, Rich.Well done.

winsum
December 30, 2006 - 04:12 pm

Rich7
December 30, 2006 - 05:31 pm
Thanks, Justin.

You know, Claire, when I first saw the letters UV mentioned in an earlier post, I thought first of ultraviolet, not University of Virginia. Thomas Jefferson, the founder of the University of Virginia, would have been interested in both, the University as a man who loved learning, and ultraviolet radiation as he fancied himself a man of science.

Rich

EllieC1113
December 30, 2006 - 06:59 pm
Thanks Rich7 and Scrawler for your information about the secret societies and other tidbits about UVA. I remember seeing "Imp" as well as large numbers of "Zs" during many of my visits. I may go to visit my daughter there in January, and I will keep my eyes open for all indications of secret societies. Thank you Malryn for sending the latest Durant passage. My comment on it is that the leaders mentioned are a delightful combination of enlightened despotism and unenlightened despotism. When I think of despotism, Saddam Hussein comes to mind. After he was executed, I think it was the Iraqi embassador either to the US or the UN who said that he was one of a number of men who epitomize infamy, including himself, Hitler, Stalin, and Pol Pot. Despots can practice their wicked craft in many ways, some much more evil than others. Certainly killing millions of people is worse than anything else I can think of.

robert b. iadeluca
December 31, 2006 - 04:50 am
Thank you so much, Mal, for your constant help. So good to have you back with the SofC family.

Durant continues.

"Giovanni Visconti, dying in 1354, bequeathed his state to three nephews. Matteo II was a sensual incompetent and was fraternally assassinated for the honor of the house. Bernabo governed part of the duchy from Milan, Galezzo II the remainder from Paris.

"Galezzo II was a capable ruler who wore his golden hair in curls and wedded his children to royalty. When his daughter Violante married the Duke of Clarence, son of King Edward III of England, Galezzo dowered the bride with 100,000 gold florins ($5,000,000) and gave the two hundred English attendants of the groom such presents as outshone the generosity of the wealthiest contemporary kings. The leavings of the wedding banquet, we are assured, could have fed ten thousand men.

"So rich was trecento Italy at a time when England was bankrupting herself and France was bleeding herself white in the Hundred Years' War."

Any comments about this exhorbitant wealth?

Robby

BaBi
December 31, 2006 - 07:03 am
"..their skill in finding competent administrators and generals brought victory to their arms and prosperity to Milan."

This skill in finding able people is the hallmark of successful rulers and successful modern CEOs. It is a most valuable talent.

The wealth of this absentee ruler (governing Italian cities from Paris?) is mind-boggling. No wonder Galezzo II was able to marry his offspring to royalty. They needed the money!

Babi

robert b. iadeluca
December 31, 2006 - 07:48 am
A suggestion, Babi -- Don't post in yellow letters. I don't know about the eyesight of others, but I found it hard to read yellow on white.

Robby

Rich7
December 31, 2006 - 08:25 am
"Giovanni Visconti, dying in 1354, bequeathed his state to three nephews. Matteo II was a sensual incompetent and was fraternally assassinated for the honor of the house."

Interesting choice of words. "sensual incompetent." He was not sensually competent? And worse still, family honor prescribed that he be killed by a brother because of that incompetence?

These people are very hard on each other!

Rich

Scrawler
December 31, 2006 - 08:38 am
Happy New Year one and all!

EllieC1113
December 31, 2006 - 08:47 am
I enjoyed thinking about that sentence, too. Sensual, I assume meant self-indulgent in romantic/sexual terms. Incompetent meant he didn't execute the duties of his office all that well. And, of course, it goes without saying that, as a consequence, his brother(s) would kill him. Fortunately (or maybe unfortunately, but probably fortunately), in this day and age, people who behave sensually usually don't lose their jobs, or their lives, unless they lie about it, and almost lose their jobs, like Bill Clinton. I could go on at length about this topic. Incompetence, depending on the degree of inability, will sometimes have negative consequences, nowadays. Who defines the incompetence, and how about the degree of this trait? I guess I feel frustrated because of the lack of specificity of Durant's description. And also because of the "inevitable consequence" stated in such a "matter of fact" way.

robert b. iadeluca
December 31, 2006 - 10:04 am
At the same time Durant's "lack of specificity" often leads to some wonderful back-and-forth discussions here.

Robby

Traude S
December 31, 2006 - 11:25 am
ROBBY, "lack of specificity", that's true.
Eliminating "a" and adding "and" between "sensual" and "incompetent" would have helped a little.
We may deduce that the poor man had to be removed more because of his incompetence in business affairs than because of his sensuality.

Nor is Durant clear about Giovanni Visconti "who paid for his crimes with gout". Does Durant see this as heavenly punishment for unspecified "crimes" committed against others ? (surely not) Or is this another bon mot, tongue-in-cheeck, to describe Giovanni's "crime" against his own body by too much good living ?

BTW Durant's use of the word "dictator" is irritating to me because, like "proletariat", it belongs to a later century.

RICH, CLAIRE, SCRAWLER, many thanks for your links and explanation.

There have been many ostentatious displays of exorbitant wealth by the monied through the centuries up into our own: e.g. the extravagant spectacle put on by Reza Shah of Iran in 1971 to celebrate 2500 years of Persian history.

If people want to celebrate their own glory and have the means to do so, they need no approval, and nothing can stop them. But I for one am not easily impressed.

In sum, what ever Giovanni Visconti's "crimes" were, he must be commended for his patronage of the arts.

EllieC1113
December 31, 2006 - 01:15 pm
Traude, when I read your post, I couldn't help but think of a painting that I saw recently at the Met. They are doing an exhibit on the home of Lewis. C. Tiffany, which was on Long Island. There is a portrait of Tiffany in a very opulent place, dressed very opulently. I kept thinking, when I looked at the portrait, "He looks very self-important. I would not want him as a friend." I also thought of F.Scott Fitzgerald and all that conspicuous consumption that he describes. It's funny because I also saw on tv a very luxurious home owned by Oprah, and I felt totally different about it. Something like, "She's kind, extremely generous, and empathic, and she deserves it."

Éloïse De Pelteau
December 31, 2006 - 02:26 pm
Durant's writing reminds me of Marcel Proust. How about you Traude? I think Durant seduces his readers most by his writing style.

"ostentatious displays of wealth" is still done on a grand scale in this part of the world too. If you have it flaunt it, as the saying goes. Kings and Presidents do it, even churches do it, they are all just human after all.

Justin
December 31, 2006 - 02:34 pm
I too wondered about "sensual incompetent". Impotence does not seem worthy of fratracide nor should excess sensuality cause such a consequence. Incompetence, on the other hand, might embarass the family or more importantly, cause the family to lose a little political power. I think as Traude thinks. A little conjuction is missing between the words sensual and incompetent.

GingerWright
December 31, 2006 - 03:21 pm
HAPPY NEW YEAR!! One and all http://wilstar.com/xmas/auldlangsyne.htm

Evelyn133
December 31, 2006 - 03:44 pm
Thanks, Ginger, for the link.

Happy New Year!!

winsum
December 31, 2006 - 03:48 pm
I'm put off by Durant's writing style. The rest of you are interesting.

standing bye. . . Claire

Justin
December 31, 2006 - 04:21 pm
Sensuality refers generally to experiences of the senses. It is possible Durant is pointing out Matteo's lack of feeling for others, perhaps his cruelty to his brothers which could lead to fratricide.

Happy New Year.

EllieC1113
December 31, 2006 - 04:36 pm
Justin, that would be logical, but I just don't think so. I think the brothers were mainly looking to usurp his power, and he was incompetent. There are many groups of people who operate that way, even in this day and age.

Justin
December 31, 2006 - 06:14 pm
Ellie adds a third element to the equation. Usurpation plus incompetence, plus family honor equals fratricide. That's a possibility (Alexander's legacy is similar) but not what Durant said. Durant is talking about incompetence and family honor. Moreover, the deed was done in the first year when the inheritors were trying to absorb their own piece of the pie. Rich's early comment on the phrase is within bounds.

jorek
December 31, 2006 - 09:39 pm
"So rich was trescento Italy, at a time when England was bankrupting herself, and France was bleeding herself white, in the Hundred Years' War."

The really marvelous thing about Durant's "Story of Civilization" is his "integral method". It lets us see all that is happening in a culture at the same time, as well as what is happening in other cultures. Do we see similarties today between cultures that invest in their own peoples and their arts as compared to those that are investing in war?

EllieC1113
January 1, 2007 - 10:21 am
Adding the family honor piece, I would conjecture that maybe the sensuality played a part. Maybe he was cavorting with undesirable people or maybe he impregnated someone (of unknown social class), much to the family's dishonor. Your point is well-taken, Justin and Rich.

Evelyn133
January 1, 2007 - 02:21 pm
I also found it very interesting that Italy was so rich at this time while England and France were bankrupting themselves.

I have the book "A Distant Mirror" by Barbara Tuchman. On Page 240, she also mentions the ruling Visconti family. "Murder, cruelty, avarice, effective government alternating with savage despotism, respect for learning and encouragement of the arts, and lust amounting to sexual mania characterized one or another of the family....The debaucheries of Matteo, eldest brother of Bernabo and Galeazzo, were such that he endangered the regime and was disposed of by his brothers in 1355, the year after their acessions."

Evelyn

Rich7
January 1, 2007 - 03:32 pm
I find it interesting how many times Barbara Tuchman's book gets mentioned by someone in this discussion. I read it years ago and remember that it also made a great impression on me. Many of the same 14th century people that we read about in Durant seemed just a little bit more human in Tuchman.

Rich

Justin
January 1, 2007 - 04:24 pm
Tuchman's "March of Folly" includes a nice piece on the Renaissance Popes that is worth reading.

Her comments in Distant Mirror about Matteo tell us his sexual exploits were dishonorable for the family- an early Don Giovanni and the original "Latin Lover". I think you have him pegged, Ellie.

3kings
January 1, 2007 - 05:56 pm
"In this Discussion Group we are not examining Durant. We are examining Civilization but in the process constantly referring to Durant's appraisals." Robbie, in the preamble to earlier volumes.

Robbie was quite strict in this regard earlier, and I myself was once requested to confine my remarks, niether to Durant, nor his style.

Has this stricture been rescinded ? ++ Trevor

Fifi le Beau
January 1, 2007 - 10:23 pm
I have been reprimanded here in the past for bringing up a book not related to the SOC. At least mine was a work of historical 'non fiction'.

The Barbara Tuchman book 'A distant mirror' was based on the writings of Jean Froissart in his 'Chronicles'. The book had just been released when she wrote an article in the Atlantic Monthly that showed the book to be a work of fiction. She said, "The problem of writing a book laid in the middle ages - Specifically in France in the second half of the fourteenth century - is that one can never be certain of achieving a likeness that is valid."

Time had already placed it on the non-fiction list, and it is still erroneously listed as such.

She is the James Frey of her time, but at least Frey used his own life and not the work of another author, in their fictious journey.

I have not read the book since I stopped reading fiction in my twenties, and only read non fiction. Books written with historical characters and locations woven around a 'fictious' story have become popular but are pseudo history where fact and fiction are mixed with history being shattered into "A Million Little Pieces".

Fifi

robert b. iadeluca
January 2, 2007 - 05:22 am
No, folks, I am not an Emperor!! It is never my intention to be "strict." If I have called attention to remarks about Durant himself or about another book, perhaps it was because I felt we were straying too far afield.

Everything in moderation.

Remember John Lennon's remark?: "Life is what happens to you while you are making other plans." Well, yesterday morning my phone line went out stopping all phone messages plus the use of the computer. About a half hour later I slipped on the stairs, felt really bruised, drove to the ER, and found I have a fractured rib. As you can see, I am home. I am taking ibuprofen and will favor myself for a few weeks. None of this even approaches what Mal or some of you endure.

Robby

Malryn
January 2, 2007 - 06:57 am

I've had a broken rib or two in the past. They're no fun, especially when it comes to "splinting" -- that is, the way a broken rib can affect one's breathing. Take it easy and relax, ROBBY.

Thinking of you,

Mal

Scrawler
January 2, 2007 - 08:05 am
"At about the time Columbus discovered America, the Renaissance - which is to say the period when the values of this world replaced those of the hereafter - was in full flower in Italy. Under its impulse the individual found in himself, rather than in God, the designer and captain of his fate. His needs, his ambitions and desires, his pleasures and possessions, his mind, his art, his power, his glory, were the house of life. His earthly passage was no longer, as in the medieval concept, a weary exile on the way to the spiritual destiny of his soul." ~ "The March of Folly" Barbara W. Tuchman

Perhaps, this paragraph more than anything explains the difference between life during the Middle Ages and life in the Renaissance. Depending on who you were you could profess your "individualism" in various ways which included both beautiful art and literature and the "follies" of men/women. I can't help wonder as I read both Durant and Tuchman whether or not we are Now going through yet another Renaissance period.

hats
January 2, 2007 - 11:00 am
Robby, I am very sorry to hear about your accident.

Traude S
January 2, 2007 - 12:53 pm
ROBBY ! When you did not post yesterday, my Fingerspitzengefühl sensed that something may be wrong at your end.
It was, as we now know. I am so sorry, especially because I had that experience and know that a cracked or broken ribs causes stabbing pains that makes breathing, our most instinctive impulse, hard.

The only prescribed medical remedy is rest (from my experience), but that may be hard for you to take because you are so extraordinarily active in your professiosl life. Howeveverm that too shall pass.<R> Good luck

GingerWright
January 2, 2007 - 01:02 pm
Robby, I am so sorry to hear of the pain you are going through. Your a survivor and the pain will be just a memory for you for awhile and that to shall pass. Know that you will be in my thoughts brother.

winsum
January 2, 2007 - 01:03 pm
OUCH


I know how it feels to be withoutthe land line. Mine was out over the weekend and there I was without 911 and LIFE ALERT. MIGHT I SUGGEST TO ALL THAT life alert IS WORTH HAVING. I USE THE BRACELET NOT THE PENDULUM AND WEAR IT ALL the time everywhere. . .

Do take it easy Robby. Pain is stressful and uses lots of energy. best, claire

Evelyn133
January 2, 2007 - 02:29 pm
Robby,

Sorry to hear about your mishap and broken rib. Hopefully you will have a speedy recovery.

Evelyn

Rich7
January 2, 2007 - 02:36 pm
Robby, get well. Nothing is more fatiguing than pain that won't go away. Try to find a position where it doesn't hurt, and get lots of rest. Only time heals a broken rib.

Best, Rich

bluebird24
January 2, 2007 - 06:34 pm

Fifi le Beau
January 2, 2007 - 06:39 pm
Robby, sorry to hear about your fall, and hope you heal quickly without too much pain.

Fifi

robert b. iadeluca
January 2, 2007 - 06:47 pm
Venice and Genoa

robert b. iadeluca
January 2, 2007 - 06:58 pm
"In 1354 Duke Giovanni Visconti sent Petrarch to Venice to negotiate peace between Venice and Genoa.

"The poet had written:-'You see in Genoa a city in the act of ruling, seated on rough hillsidees, superb in walls and men.'

"The merchant's itch for gain, pitting the sailor's pluck against the sea, had plowed lanes of Genoese commerce through the Mediterranean to Tunis, Rhodes, Acre, and Tyre, to Samos, Lesbos, and Constantinople, through the Black Sea to the Crimea and Trebizond, through Gibraltar and the Atlantic to Rouen and Bruges.

"These enterprising businessmen developed double-entry bookkeeping by 1340 and marine insurance by 1370. They borrowed money from private investors at seven to ten percent while in most Italian cities the rate ranged from twelve to thirty.

"For a long time the fruits of trade were divided, never amicably, among a few rich familiews -- the Doria, the Spinola, the Grimaldi, the Rieschi. In 1339 Simone Boccanera led the sailors and other workers in a successful revolution and became the first of a line of doges that ruled Genoa until 1797.

"Verdi commemorated him in an opera.

"The victors in their turn divided into hostile family groups and disordered the city with costly strife while Genoa's great rival, Venice, thrived on order and unity."

Robber barons?

Rpbby

gaj
January 2, 2007 - 07:24 pm
The family names sound familiar to me even though I am not as versed in the Italian Renaissance as the Elizabethan. My Elizabethan isn't as fresh in my mind as it once was though,

This family sounded the most familiar.

Grimaldi

gaj
January 2, 2007 - 07:39 pm
Robbie Please take care of yourself.

winsum
January 2, 2007 - 08:01 pm
and the art???

Claire

Justin
January 2, 2007 - 11:26 pm
Robby: You are in for a seige. The two most important things in life- breathing and sleeping- are a challenge when one has a broken rib. Sleeping while sitting up is possible but difficult. Taping and shallow breathing works best. Coughing and sneezing must be avoided at all costs.

I also have a minor inconvenience when compared to Mal. I dropped a fire log on my finger and now the silly thing has turned blue and fat. So typing is difficult. Is that a problem?

Justin
January 2, 2007 - 11:30 pm
Fifi: You know Robby never reprimands. He does however, like to keep things on topic.

JoanK
January 2, 2007 - 11:35 pm
Coming back to this discussion after weeks of packing to move, to find Robby hurt -- but still perking (I hope you feel better Robby) and the discussion perking with him. I like Scrawler's quote from Tuchman. I'm one who is always quoting a Distant Mirror, and will try to get "March of Folly".

I'm now in California, looking for a place to live in Torrance and staying with my daughter. The weather is fantastic -- warm, sunny, lots of flowers and grass. I'm still disorganized and discombobulated though. It will be awhile before I get my new life together.

Bubble
January 3, 2007 - 02:15 am
Grace Kelly married the Prince of Monaco and thus her children are of the Grimaldi House. Monaco, Monte Carlo is so beautiful! So is the townlet of Cagnes-sur-mer. I spent an heavenly week there.

On another more personal note, a Swiss named Mr Grimaldi, was coming every year to my parents store in Congo-Zaire, with his sample collection of clothes and material swatches. He was taking their order to be send back. He was not from that famed family.

hats
January 3, 2007 - 02:51 am
Bubble, that is very interesting. Grace Kelly grew up in Philadelphia. I bet Monte Carlo is beautiful.

Rich7
January 3, 2007 - 05:38 am
in this group. Think I'll ask for a transfer out of SOC before I fall down an elevator shaft!

Rich

robert b. iadeluca
January 3, 2007 - 05:50 am
Nothing wrong with the Brains in this group, Rich!!

Robby

Bubble
January 3, 2007 - 05:53 am
Don't use the elevator Rich, walking the steps is much to be recommended: exercise

robert b. iadeluca
January 3, 2007 - 06:03 am
"Next to Milan, Venice was the richest and strongest state in Italy and without exception the most ably governed.

"Its craftsmen were famous for the elegance of their products, mostly made for the luxury trade. Its great arsenal employed 16,000 men.

"36,000 seamen manned its 3300 vesesels of war or trade. In the galleys freemen, not slaves as in the sixteenth century, plied the oars.

"Venetian merchants invaded every market from Jerusalem to Antwerp. They traded impartially with Christians and Mohammedans and papal excommunications fell upon them with all the force of dew upon the earth.

"Petrarch, who had ranged from Naples to Flanders in his 'love and zeal for seeing many things,' marveled at the shipping he saw in the Venetian lagoons.:---

'I see vessels as big as my mansion, their masts taller than its towers. They are as mountains floating on the waters. They go to face incalculable dangers in every portion of the glove. They bear wine to England, honey to Russia, saffron, oil, and linen to Assyria, Armenia, Persia, and Araby, wood to Egypt and Greece. They return heavily laden with products of all kinds, which are sent hence to every part of the world.'

"This lusty trade was financed by private funds collected and invested by moneylenders who began in the fourteenth century to take the name of bankers, bancberri, from the banco or bench on which they sat before their tables of exchange. The chief monetary units were the lira (a shortening of libra, pound) and the ducat )from duca, duke, doge), a gold coin of 3560 grams.

"This and the Florentine florin were the most stable and most widely honored currencies in Christendom."

Sounds just as "modern" as today.

Robby

Malryn
January 3, 2007 - 06:39 am

I came in here this morning (albeit a little late) to read ROBBY's last post so I could tell where to start typing from the book. I found that Mr. Dr. Iadeluca has already been in. Can't hold a good man back! Or woman, for that matter.

Grace Kelly and Philadelphia. Here I've lived in PA a year and haven't been to Philly, which I've visited once in my life.

RICH, don't quit. At this point, the accidents are ready to slow down.

Venice was the most ably governed, eh? I wonder why? Finding out about that will be one of my projects today.

I may be coughing like mad, both legs bandaged from ankles to hips, there's nothing wrong with my brain, thank God. I wish you could have seen what I did in that nursing home, where I lived for three weeks. If you had, you'd be on your knees in gratitude like me!

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
January 3, 2007 - 06:44 am
Nevertheless, Mal, it's good to know that you are right there if I am "incapacitated."

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
January 3, 2007 - 06:48 am
The minuscule town of Grimaldi in Southern Italy sits atop a high hill hugging the Mediterranean sea, you can actually walk there from France only about a mile away. Admiring the view from that vantage point while sipping an expresso coffee leaves you with a permanent memory. It was a far cry from the rich towns we are talking about here.

BaBi
January 3, 2007 - 07:04 am
"Doria" was another name I noticed. Remember the 'Andrea Doria'? I wonder if that was a ship of the same family?

I am struck with how frequently Petrarch appears in the role of ambassador and diplomat for one court or another. He must have been a man of many talents, the most useful of which may have been the ability to make himself welcome wherever he went. I think I will go see what I can find in the way of a really good biography on this man.

Babi

Bubble
January 3, 2007 - 08:26 am
Babi: Andrea Doria or D'Oria (November 30, 1466-November 25, 1560) was a Genoese condottiero and admiral.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Doria

Eloise, that Grimaldi town in Calabria is really small: 715 families and 969 Housing Units!

http://en.comuni-italiani.it/078/059/index.html

Traude S
January 3, 2007 - 01:44 pm
BUBBLE, yes, the Grimaldi family history is only one of countless fascinating historic details.
The Grimaldis are linked essentially with Genua and Monaco. It surprises me to hear that there is a small town in Calabria (!) of all places!

Indeed, Andrea Doria was a condottiere (pl. condottieri, = the term for leaders of mercenary soliers during several centuries.)
The popes too participated vicariously in every bloody battle in those the centuries by virtue of mercenaries; they benefited equally when land was divvied up in every peace treaty.

Many Italian cities have monikers, Rome, for instance, is La città eterna = the eternal city. Bologna has two : La dotta (the sage one) because its university is the oldest, and "La grassa" = the fat one, literally, because of its supreme cuisine.
Then there's Venice, whose surname tells it all : La Serenissima = the most serene. (The suffix -issimo, or issima is the Italian superlative of an adjective.)

JOAN K, I thought of you and it's good to see you've arrived in CA. Best of luck in finding a new home in or near Torrance.

3kings
January 3, 2007 - 05:25 pm
In the galleys freemen, not slaves as in the sixteenth century, plied the oars.

Wonder what happened to the 'freemen' ? Being displaced from the galleys by slaves, would they have found other employment, or would they have been left to eke out a substandard existence elsewhere.

It will be interesting to know how the general populace fared when the sixteenth century came round. ++ Trevor

Justin
January 3, 2007 - 05:47 pm
JoanK. Welcome to CA. You are about 400 miles south of me but you and Claire are practically neighbors.Scrawler is in here too, somewhere.

Justin
January 3, 2007 - 05:54 pm
Venice (Venezia in Italian) is a community with a town painter. Canaletto has put the town on canvas. His city scapes are outstanding. Prendergast has also done the town but his work is less precise and of a more recent vintage.

robert b. iadeluca
January 3, 2007 - 05:59 pm
"Life in Venice was almost as gay as in the Naples of Boccaccio's youth.

"The Venetians celebrated their holidays and victories with majestic ceremonies, carved and colored their pleasure vessels and their men-o'-war, draped their flesh in Oriental silks, brightened their tables with Venetian glass, and made much music on their waters and in their homes.

"In 1365 the Doge Lorenzo Celsi, accompanied by Petrarch, presided over a competition among the best musicians in Italy. Poems were chanted to various accompaniments, great choruses sang, and the first prize was awarded to Frencesco Landino of Florence, a blind composer of ballads and madrigals.

"Lorenzo Veneziano and others were making the transition from medieval severity to Renaissance grace in frescoes and polyprychs already presaging the colorfulness of Venetian painting. Houses, palances, and churches rose like corals out of the sea. There were no castles in Venice, no fortified dwellings, no massive forbidding walls, for here private feud soon submitted to public law and, besides, almost every mansion had a narutal moat.

"Architectural design was still Gothic but light and graceful as northern Gothic dared not be. In this period the majestic church of Santa Maria Gloriosa dei Frari was built. St. Mark's continued, every now and then, to lift its aging face with youthful decorations of sculpture, mosaic, and arabesques, and superimposed Gothic ogives upon some round arches of the old Byzantine form.

"Though the Piazza San Marco had not yet received its full encirclement of architecture, Petrarch doubed 'if it has an equal within the bounds of the world.'"

Ever so gradually changes take place.

Robby

Rich7
January 3, 2007 - 06:08 pm
http://www.sights-and-culture.com/cruise/Marks-basilica-5279.html

Rich

winsum
January 3, 2007 - 06:38 pm
here is the nave of St. Marks Cathedral. decorative plus. claire

the nave

Traude S
January 3, 2007 - 07:25 pm
One of the most extravagantly celebrated occasions in Venice is Carnival.

There are no streets on the lagoon, only canals, small and large. The biggest is the Canal Grande. I'm trying to link a picture of the famous church across the water, with St. Mark's Cathedral on one's left, Santa Maria della Salute. It shows the canal grande and one of the motor boats (vaporetti) that transport passengers.
Sorry, the link did not work.

Justin
January 3, 2007 - 07:34 pm
The church of the Frari houses interesting pieces by Titian. The altarpiece is particularly worthy.

Santa Maria Della Salute is lit by electric lights every night so tha one can see its dome and facade from any position along the Grande Canal. It is Romanesque in design but with exterior decoration reminiscent of the Rococo.

Once per year a great Regatta is held. The gondoliers outdo each other in boat decoration.

Traude S
January 3, 2007 - 07:45 pm
JUSTIN, here it is
http://www.cheapvenice.com/frari-church.htm

Traude S
January 3, 2007 - 09:02 pm
I have found excellent links to Titian, his Assunta (oil on wood), the Venice Arsenal, and maps of the laguna, of the Lido and Marco Polo Airport, and the islands of Murano, where fine glass is still made, and Burano, a little farther out, more secluded, but well known for the fine lace made there. Unfortunately none of the links worked for me here.

St. Mark's Square with the doves and the two famous cafés, the Cathedral, the Doge's Palace, and the Bridge of Sighs (Ponte dei sospiri) all deserve a look.

Fifi le Beau
January 3, 2007 - 09:36 pm
What a life Petrarch led....He wrote it all down so we are priviledged to know how life was in Italy in the 1300's. Men lived free and even the papal excommunications which fell upon them like dew did not dampen their spirits or change their course.

His only concession to the church was to publish posthumously his writings about that organization and its leaders. They still held great power over a mans life, especially any who wrote with an honest opinion of what he saw and heard. The church was not above digging him up and hanging him out as an example, but he wanted it published anyway after his death.

His work to save Greek philosophy was worth his good life if he had done nothing else. So much of Greek writing was lost and without men like Petrarch we wouldn't have what we do today.

Between Petrarch and Boccaccio they gave us a view of Italy that is vibrant and alive with excitement and progress that made their century one of light after the darkness of so many years before them.

If I had to live in the fourteenth century, let it be in Italy.

Fifi

winsum
January 3, 2007 - 10:58 pm
thank you for the link. . .I followed it to Tintoretto who is one of my favorites. His images SWIRL . . .The other links you mentioned are "worth a look" as well. Claire

Justin
January 3, 2007 - 11:34 pm
Mal: If you feel well enough to retrieve some things for us we will be very grateful. It is hard to be in Venice and yet not see Venice. The city is very special. Its treasures are glorious. The architecture, the paintings, the sculpture, the piazzas, the bridges, the back alleys, it's floods, it's outer islands, it is all made to bring pleasure to the eye.There are masterpieces all over town. Tintoretto, Bellini, Titian, Veronese, and Tiepolo have all done wonderful things here. The light is like nowhere else in the world. Start with Canaletto's paintings to see the city. Then th Accademia Galleries, is a source for Bellini, Titian, Tiepolo, and others. Tintortto is in the scuola San Rocco. and Titian is inthe Frari Church. The palazzo Labia has Tiepolo's frescoes.

Many years ago I first came to Venice after a flood. The piazzas were filled with duck boards so people could get around. All art in town was moved above the piano. The motoscafi, and the gondolas were the only way to go about. The regular water buses were swamped and the flooded ramps were inaccessible. The orchestra in Piazza San Marco played in boots. "Arriva d'erci Roma" never left our ears. But in spite of the inconvenience and the efforts of art curators to move things the stay was wonderful. The back alleys were inaccessible except with boots and some shallow draft gondolas. My little hotel was only accessible by it's canal door and a gondola.My room was about ten by fifteen and filled with a bed. There was a telephone booth toilet without a door in the room as well. God, life was adventursome in those days.

Justin
January 3, 2007 - 11:43 pm
Claire: Since you are in Venice you should look at Peggy Guggenheim's stuff. Her collection is at Palazzo Venier dei Leoni on the Grand Canal. She has Picassos and Pollocks, as well as Malevitch,Kandinsky, Mondrian,and Magritte. She has Duchamps stuff, as well as Delauney, and Gris. Max Ernst and Peggy were once married so his stuff is there. So is Chagall, Chirico, and Picabia. The entire modern world of painting belongs to Peggy. She bought it all.

Justin
January 4, 2007 - 12:23 am
Claire in 579 has given us a picture of the interior of San Marco. The photographer is facing the inconostasis or Choir screen and looking through to the altar in the main apse. You can see that gold leaf onlays fill the walls. It is a gold mosaic. Very Byzantine and characteristic of painting in the early Trecento. We saw it recently in Siena with Orcagna and Simone Martini. Here in Venice where the Byzantine made it's greatest impact in Italy we can see much of the style. Behind the choir screen one can see the famous Golden Altarpiece called Pala d'Oro. It was done about mid-Trecento.

Just outside of San Marco on the Piazzo is a sculpture of the Tetrarch. Those of you were with us in Rome will recall that in the fourth century Rome split east and west and established dual emperors each with a ruling companion. The Tetrarch is part of that split. This piece was brought from Constantinople.

Saint Mark's body was thought to have been found somewhere in Anatolia, I think, and it was translated to Venice to lay in state with great pomp and ceremony.There is a mosaic over the left arch, I think, showing people carrying the body to its resting place in the Basilica. The Mosaic is early Trecento. A good image of the facade will show it to us.

There are some bronze horses atop the roof of the facade that are worth looking at. They are four in number and were removed by Napoleon when he came to Venice. They were returned in recent years.

robert b. iadeluca
January 4, 2007 - 05:31 am
"All this beauty, quivering in the reflection of the Grand Canal, all this monolithic structure of economy and government, ruling an Adriatic and Aegean emire from an Archimedean fragment of the earth, met a mortal challenge in 1378 when the old strife with Genoa reached its peak.

"Luciano Doria led a Genoese armada up to Pola, found the main Venetian fleet weakened by an epidemic among the sailors and in an overwhelming victory captured fifteen galleys and nearly two thousand men. Luciano lost his life in the battle but his brother Ambrogio, succeeding him as admiral, took the town of Chioggia -- on a narrow promontory some fifteen miles south of Venice -- formed an alliance with Padua, blocked all Veneteian shipping and prepared, with Genoese seamen and Paduan mercenaries, to invade Venice itself.

"The proud city, apparently defenseless, asked for terms. These were so insolent and severe that the Great Council resolved to fight for every foot of water in the lagoons. The rich poured their hidden wealth into the coffers of the state. The people labored day and night to build another fleet. Floating fortresses were raised around the islands and were equipped with cannon, now for the first time appearing in Italy.

"But the Genoese and Paduans, having already blockaded Venice from the sea, stretched a cordon of troops across its land approaches and shut off the city's food supply. While some of the population starved, Vittore Pisani trained recruits for the new navy.

"In December 1379, Pisani and the Doge Andrea Contarini led the reconstituted fleet -- thirty four galleys, sixty large craft, four hundred small boats -- to besiege the Genoese and their ships at Chioggia. The Genoese fleet was too small to face the new Venetian navy.

"Venetian cannon shot into the Genoese vessels, fortresses, and barracks stones weighing 150 pounds, killing among many, the Genoese admiral Pietro Doria. The Genoese, starving, asked leave to evaluate the women and children from Choggia. The Venetians consented but when the Genoese offered to yield if their fleet should be allowed to depart, it was the turn of Venice to demand unconditional surrender.

"For six months the siege of Chioggia continued. At last, reduced by disease and death, the Genoese gave up. Venice treated them humanely.

"When Amadeus VI, Count of Savoy, offered mediation, the exhausted rivals agreed. They made mutual concessions, exchanged prisoners, and resigned themselves to peace in 1381."

The brave Venetians fought for "every foot of water."

Robby

Malryn
January 4, 2007 - 07:57 am

Piazza San Marco, looking Southeast -- Canaletto

Santa Maria della Salute -- Canaletto

Paintings of Venice and more by Canaletto

Malryn
January 4, 2007 - 08:05 am

About the Accademia in Venice

Malryn
January 4, 2007 - 08:16 am

Titian

Tintoretto: from Italian Painters of the Renaissance by Bernard Berenson

List of images online of Tintoretto's paintings

Malryn
January 4, 2007 - 08:45 am

Gondolas, San Marco

Pala d'Oro

Development and Elements of the Pala d'Oro

Malryn
January 4, 2007 - 08:57 am

Tetrach, San Marco

Links to San Marco, the Doge's Palace and more. Scroll down

Scrawler
January 4, 2007 - 09:51 am
Actually, Justin I moved to Portland, Oregon about ten years ago and now live in Hillsboro, Oregon. But I was born in San Francisco and did live in San Jose, California for most of my adult life.

Do you think we would have had the beauty of art and literature during the Renaissance if it weren't for the wealthy (which included the popes) commissioning the artists, writers, and poets? Could these artists live as they did without the wealthy to support them as some of the artists in later periods did?

Éloïse De Pelteau
January 4, 2007 - 10:22 am
I wonder if we would have that pleasure too Scrawler without the patronage of the wealthy.

Thank you Mal, I will spend a few hours in those links soon.

EllieC1113
January 4, 2007 - 10:38 am
Hello. I just went back to work after a two week "vacation." So, I haven't been reading the posts for the last few days. Robby, I am sorry to hear about your accident. I was just wallowing in self-pity about a recredentialing packet that I had to fill in for one of the healthcare networks that I participate in. It took forever, and there were a slew of irritating glitches. Still my self-pity got a more reasonable perspective when I heard about your accident, Robby. I hope you are feeling better.

winsum
January 4, 2007 - 10:50 am
I'm having to make folders for Venice and all the sub-eadings since I'm saving most of it. You are so good at this. THANK YOU. . .Claire

winsum
January 4, 2007 - 11:29 am
He didn't like his work and booted him out. I can see the differences. Titian portraits are beautifully finished but in many cases as in FLORA the same woman holds the same pose for five different paintings of supposedly different subjects. The heads are small in relaionship to the huge bodies even in the portraits of the men. Tintoretto is more into FORM rhythm movement etc and less into fine finishing.

JUst putting it all together. What I learned so long ago with what I can see now is so interesting to me.

Claire

winsum
January 4, 2007 - 11:49 am
It seems to have been just that. enormous bodies and little heads TACKED on at improbable angles, also evident in the sculpture of Michelangelo. . .Titian more than Tintoretto but evidently meant to be that way to project POWER. Tintoretto more interested in light and form.

EllieC1113
January 4, 2007 - 12:14 pm
I am curious about why the Popes excommunicated many of the merchants. I can imagine, given the fact that someone (choose not to name him) said "It is harder for a camel to fit through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." There is much truth, in my opinion, to that quotation, put forth by a rather wise individual. I wonder as to the specifics. I don't have the Tuchman book. Does she say anything about the details here, even if she writes historical fiction? I've got to tell you, I am reading another book by James McPherson, a Princeton historian. He quotes Shelby Foote, a historical fiction writer (brilliant in my estimation), which shocked me. I guess McPherson can readily separate the real references from the made-up parts.

robert b. iadeluca
January 4, 2007 - 01:52 pm
Obviously our Mal is back in full force!!!

Robby

Fifi le Beau
January 4, 2007 - 03:28 pm
Thank you Mal for the great links. The Titian link answered the question, 'would art have flourished without wealthy patrons'.

Titian began as an student apprentice in a workshop of Bellini. Then he went to Giorgione as an assistant, and some works attributed to Titian used to be credited to Giorgione.

Titian got his first commission from the church who got its money from the 'pennies of the poor' all over Europe. So you could say that Titian got his start from the poor, not the wealthy. His work for the church did lead to the attention of the Italian ruling houses and commissions from them to immortalize themselves in paint.

The wealthy did commission him to do the Bacchus series and all those female nudes even as the church continued to give him work painting the saints. It could be called his 'saints and sinners' period.

Durant has already told us that the flourishing of the arts began from all those 'pennies of the poor' from all over Europe that flowed into the church coffers. The rich patrons came after the artists established themselves with the church.

Why risk your lira on an unknown painter when you could view the saints already painted, and invision the nude female form, or a painting of yourself that looked like a saint.

Fifi

robert b. iadeluca
January 4, 2007 - 03:33 pm
Twilight of the "Trecento"

robert b. iadeluca
January 4, 2007 - 03:37 pm
"Petrarch, sampling every city and every host, took up his residence in Venice in 1361 and lived there for seven years.

"He brought his library with him, containing almost all the Latin classics except Lucretius. In an eloquent letter he deeded the precious collection to Venice but reserved its use to himself until his death.

"As a gesture of appreciation the Venetian government assigned to him the Palazzo Molina, furnished for his comfort. However, Petrarch took his books with him on his later wanderings.

"At his death they fell into the hands of his last host, Francesco I de Carrara, an enemy of Venice. Some were kept at Padua; most were sold or otherwise dispersed."

Robby

BaBi
January 4, 2007 - 04:25 pm
My especial thanks, MAL, for the Canaletto links. I love his paintings, the light and the color. I could sit and click slowly through every one of them, if I had the time.

Babi

Justin
January 4, 2007 - 06:45 pm
Thank you Mal. The Canalettos are wonderful. You brought up so many and they do give us, in great variety, images of this wonderful city. One can see that it is a city of water canals. No cars or trucks of any kind are allowed in the city. Everything moves by water. Looking at the Churches and their entrances one can see that they begin at the water's edge. The buildings,the quays, the piazzas, the monuments, the colors,are all laid out for us to see in these Canalettos. There are exterior mosaics done by artists of great skill that can be seen in the paintings. Spend a little time with Canaletto and you will come to know this city in all it's charm. His light depicts the light of the grey days and of the sunny days. It is the light of Venice. I wish Manet had visited Venice. He captured light so well as at San Adress. I must keep these posting numbers in mind so we can refer to them from time to time as we proceed through the history of Venice in the Renaissance.

Justin
January 4, 2007 - 07:53 pm
Robby: I think I went too far and for that I am sorry but the Canalettos that Mal brought up for us were well worth the diversion. We had a look at some of the history by noting the Tetrarch standing in San Marco Piazza. It serves to point up the great influence Constantinople and the Roman schism had on the formation of Venice.

When Alaric took Rome in 400 or so the surviving people of the northeastern swamps pushed further out into the swamps for protection. It was these folks who formed the initial elements of the city. Later on the Lombards pushed people out of Padua and into the swamps thus adding to the population of the islands of Venice. Torcello, Murano, and Burano islands as well as Chioggia helped form a defensive perimeter from the sea and the Lido formed a barrier to the Lagoon.

During the Duecento Venetians became so strong the Byzantine Emperor arrested many thousands in Constantinople and confiscated their property. The Doge sent his navy to attack Constantinople but the fleet succumbed to plague. The Veneti then diverted the Crusaders to take Constantinople in revenge. That was about 1200. (Those of us who read Jean Burin's work or who participated in the story of the Crusades may have wondered at the time why Constantinople was attacked in the fourth crusade. It was Christian. The reason for the attack is now clearer. The Veneti had a hand in the decision.)

The Genoese, took Constantinople back from the Veneti, in an alliance with the Byzantines. The Genoese and the Veneti battled back and forth through out the Trecento and toward the end of the century had a final battle at Chioggia which is situated at the head of the Lagoon. The Genoese never recovered. Venice secured full independence as well as the Aegean Islands.

The Veneti had become powerful as a trading center and as result its Navy did battle on many foreign shores. Without the trading influence Venice might not have become any more than a swampy hideway for Europe's refugees.

And so we enter the Twilight of the Trecento.

Justin
January 4, 2007 - 08:13 pm
During the Trecento the Church was the dominant patron. Later,in the quatrocento,lay patrons began to play a role but only by commissioning art for churches or family chapels. Eventually, lay patrons began to commission works for their homes as well. These early patron commissions were devoted to religious subjects. In the Mid to Late quatrocento some lucious looking saints were sculpted and painted. Donatello's David and Mary Magdelan are good examples as is Michelangelo Buonaroti's David. Late in the century artists were working for both Church and Lay patrons. When the Baroque begun lay patrons and sexy subjects were common although the Church was still a dominant patron.

robert b. iadeluca
January 4, 2007 - 08:19 pm
Definition of TRECENTO.

Robby

Rich7
January 5, 2007 - 06:59 am
Justin, Your statement about Venice does start a thought process on "what might have been."

From your post #609: "Without the trading influence Venice might not have become any more than a swampy hideaway for Europe's refugees."

I've always wondered what the world would be like, today, if Carthage, rather than Rome had won the Punic Wars. Would Western culture be more "Eastern"? Would Christianity have failed to become the Western world's predominant religion?

It's interesting to think of what might have been. Good subject for a novel, maybe.

Rich

mabel1015j
January 5, 2007 - 10:46 am
on "Engineering an Empire" they are doing a show on Da Vinci's inventions........jean

BaBi
January 5, 2007 - 02:07 pm
ROBBY, thanks for defining 'trecento' for me. (I didn't want to betray my ignorance by asking Justin.)

Babi

Justin
January 5, 2007 - 02:32 pm
Babi: Sorry about trecento. We all labored through that in some earlier posts and Robby graciously, often supplies definitions when most needed.

Rich: What do you suppose would have happened had Petrarch's library been donated successfully to Venice as promised? We have it all now but in the Trecento men continued to be guided by superstition rather than logic. The library's dispersal meant that it was not accessible. Some of it went into the Vatican which saved it but failed to diseminate the knowledge in unbiased form.

BaBi
January 5, 2007 - 02:37 pm
No apology necessary, Justin. I missed some posts here and there. I must confess when I come in and find I'm 40+ posts behind (what a busy group!!), my courage falters. My loss entirely.

Babi

Traude S
January 5, 2007 - 03:50 pm
BaBi, we are moving right along quite rapidly, and it is not always possible to keep up with the posts and the information conveyed.

However, for the sake of good order, may I refer to winsum's #323, which raised the samae question, and my answer in #326.

This message is # 617 -- imagine ! Isn't it amazing how far we've come since December 16, 2006 and how much ground we have covered ?!!!

robert b. iadeluca
January 5, 2007 - 04:32 pm
Babi:-I didn't want to betray my ignorance so I looked up the definition and posted it, pretending that I knew it all along!

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
January 5, 2007 - 06:01 pm
"Petrarch left Venice in 1368 for Pavia, hoping to negotiate a peace there between Galeazzo II Visconti and Pope Urban V, only to learn that eloquence without guns finds no ears among diplomats.

"In 1370 he accepted the invitation of Francesco I de Carrara to live for the second time as a royal guest in Padua. But his aging nerves resented the city's bustle and he soon retired to a modest villa at Arqua in the Euganean hills, twelve miles southwest of Padua. There he passed the remaining four years of his life.

"He gathered and edited his letters for posthumous publications and wrote a charming miniature autobrography, Epistola ad posteros. Again he yielded to the philosopher's ancient failing -- to tell statesmen how to managa stqtes.

"In De republica optime administranda he advised the lord of Padua to 'be not the master but the father of thy subjects and to love them as thy children' - to drain marshes, ensure a food supply, maintain churches, support the sick and helpless and give protection and patronage to men of letters -- on whose pens all fame depends.

"Then he took up The Decameron and translated the story of Griselda into Latin to win for it a European audience."

Robby

EllieC1113
January 5, 2007 - 07:45 pm
I love the idea of the servant leader. I think that an impulse of altruism exists in many of our leaders. Maybe not totally--there is often a self-serving piece mixed in. Here in NYS we have our new governor, Elliot Spitzer. I see him as almost totally benevolent and feel he will protect the interests of the average citizen. Petrarch used his genius well in exercising the "philosopher's ancient failing." Why do I feel that that judgmental statement tells me more about Will Durant's arrogance than about Petrarch's failings?

winsum
January 6, 2007 - 12:07 am
is evident through out. It's easy to dislike him. I think the trecento has satisfied my art urge thanks to Justin and Traude rich, Fifi and others so will relax for a while and let him and you all go on without me. . . .Claire

Justin
January 6, 2007 - 12:33 am
Philosophers often recognize the failings of political figures but are not always able to keep their mouths shut. Two philosophers, who made the error Petrarch made, paid for failing with their lives. Socrates took the cup of death after advising the state to mend it's ways and Seneca sliced his wrists in a tub of hot water after advising Nero to compromise on an issue. In Durant's day Ray Moley limped back to Columbia after the famous "Roosevelt Brain Trust" failed in the courts.

Justin
January 6, 2007 - 12:51 am
Every so often a poster finds something Durant said arrogant. I think that's an ok thing to do. Durant sometimes is arrogant but he is also learned and erudite. His phrasing is often clear, simple, and picturesque. It is hard to mistake his intent for something other than what he has written. His style encourages expansive comment from readers and that is, I think, good for us in our mode of response.

Bubble
January 6, 2007 - 04:28 am
You are right Justin. I delight even more from the way he expresses himself than from the content of his sentences. It is magical the way he invites thoughts.

robert b. iadeluca
January 6, 2007 - 06:37 am
"Boccaccio was now in a mood to regret that he had ever written The Decameron or the sensual poems of his youth.

"In 1361 a dying monk had sent him a message reproaching him with his evil life and merry tales and prophesying for him, in case he deferred reform, a speedy death and everlasting agonies in hell. Boccaccio had never been an assiduous thinker. He accepted the delusions of his time in regard to casting horoscopes and telling the future through dreams. He believed in a multitude of demons and thought that Aeneas had veritably visited Hades.

"He turned now to orthodoxy and thought of selling his books and becoming a monk. Petrarch, advised of this, besought him to take a middle course to turn from the writing of amorous Italian poems and novelle to the earnest study of the Latin and Greek classics.

"Boccaccio accepteed the counsel of his 'venerble master' and became the first Greek humanist in Western Europe.

"Urged on by Petrarch, he collected classical manuscripts, rescued books XI-XVI of the Annals and books I-V of the Histories of Tacitus from their oblivion in the neglected library of Monte Cassino, restored the texts of Martial and Ausonius and contrived to give Homer to the Western world.

"Some scholars in the Age of Faith had carried on a knowledge of Greek but in Boccaccio's day Greek had almost totally disappeared from the ken of the West except in half-Greek Southern Italy.

"In 1341 Petrarch began to study Greek with the Calabrian monk Barlaam. When a bishopric in Calabria fell vacant, Petrarch successfully recommended Barlaam for it. The monk departed and Petrarch dropped Greek for lack of a teacher, a grammar, or a lexicon.

"No such books were then available in Latin or Italian. In 1359 Boccaccio met at Milan one of Barlaam's pupils, Leon Pilatus. He invited him to Florence and persuaded the university -- which had been founded eleven yers before -- to establish a chair of Greek for P8latus. Petrarch helped to pay his salary, sent copies of the Iliad and the Odyssey to Boccaccio and commissioned Pilatus to translate them into Latin. The work was frequently delayed and involved Petrarch in a troublesome correspondence. He complained that the letters of Pilatus were even longer and dirtier than his beard. Only through Boccaccio's exhorttations and co-opperation was Pilatus prodded to compoete the task.

"This inaccurate and prosaic vetrsion was the only Latin translation of Homer known to Europe in the fourteenth century."

Boccaccio had never been an assiduous thinker? Interesting.

Robby

BaBi
January 6, 2007 - 08:10 am
Thank you, TRAUDE. And you, ROBBY, are ever the courteous host.

I was startled to discover I could find no biographies of Petrarch whatever. Surely someone has written about such an interesting life. I wonder, ROBBY, if that little autobiography of Petrarchs, his letters and 'posteros', was ever translated into English. I'll do another search for that.

I was pleasantly surprised to learn Boccaccio became the "first Greek humanist in Western Europe". His rescue of the Annals and some of Tacitus' histories, imo, are more to his credit than his 'Tales..'.

"..the letters of Pilatus were even longer and dirtier than his beard." The monks of those days seemed to eschew soap and water. It was supposed to show their contempt for the flesh, and devotion to things spiritual. Little commentaries like this quote make this study so enjoyable.

Babi

robert b. iadeluca
January 6, 2007 - 08:17 am
Here is a biography of PETRARCH.

Robby

BaBi
January 6, 2007 - 08:21 am
Thanks, ROBBY. I was hoping to find a book about him, but this will be at least a good overview. I've filed it away to read at my leisure.

Babi

robert b. iadeluca
January 6, 2007 - 09:49 am
"On his seventieth birthday, July 10, 1374, Patrarch was found leaning over a book, apparently sleeping, actually dead. In his will he left fifty florins to buy a mantle for Boccaccio as protection against the cold during the long winter nights.

"On December 21, 1375, Boccaccio too died, aged sixty-one.

"For fifty years now Italy would lie fallow until the seeds that these men had planted would come to flower."

Your thoughts, please?

Robby

Justin
January 6, 2007 - 03:40 pm
BABI; The Greenwood Press published a book in 1969 called "Petrarch,The first Modern Scholar." The translator from the original Latin is James Harvey Robinson,Professor of History at Columbia. It contains an extensive biographical section, and a selection of letters from Petrarch to Boccaccio. It is well worth the time to read.

Justin
January 6, 2007 - 04:00 pm
Doesn't assiduous mean to persevere? Does it take perseverance to recognize that Aeneas did not actually visit Hades? Maybe it does require persistence to recognize fallacy. Not everything is intuitively recognizable.

Traude S
January 6, 2007 - 07:37 pm
Durant's statement that "Boccaccio had never been an assiduous thinker." startled me too on linguistic grounds. I have never seen, heard or read "assiduous" associated with thinking.

"assiduous" (from the Latin assiduus) means diligent; tireless; busy; industrious; working diligently at a task; persistent; constant in applying onself; e.g. an assiduous reader; an assiduous student; an assiduous worker, a hard worker, someone whose endeavor is tangible. Antonyms are negligent and lazy.

I don't mean to quibble, but how do we know that "Boccaccio had never been an assiduous thinker" ? Or did Durant have a different adjective in mind ?

winsum
January 7, 2007 - 12:19 am
hmm interesting word. I thought it meant someone who was gifted but it only means devoted. Maybe Durant made the same mistake. Historians are not necessarily "word-smiths". Now and then a word does make me uncomfortable, but that one didn't bother me. Learn something new every day, especially in here. . . Claire

robert b. iadeluca
January 7, 2007 - 05:34 am
Perspective

robert b. iadeluca
January 7, 2007 - 05:49 am
"We have followed Petrarch and Boccaccio through Italy.

"But politically there was no Italy. There were only city-states, fragments free to consume themselves in hate and war. Pisa destroyed its commercial rival Amalfi. Milan destroyed Piacenza. Genoa and Florence destroyed Pisa. Venice destroyed Genoa. And half of Europe would join most of Italy to destroy Venice.

"The collapse of central government in the barbarian invasions -- the 'Gothic War' of the sixth century -- the Lombard-Byzantine dichotomy of the peninsula -- the decay of the Roman roads -- the contest of Lombards and popes -- the conflict of papacy and Empire -- the papal fear that one secular power sovereign from the Alps to Sicily would make the pope a prisoner, subjecting the spiritual head of Europe to the political leader of a state -- all these had wrought the disunity of Italy.

"Partisans of the popes and partisans of the emperors not only divided Italy, they split almost every city into Guelf and Ghibelline. And even when that strife subsided, the old labels were used by new rivalries and the lava of hate flowed into all the avenues of life.

"If Ghibellines wore feathers on one side of their caps, Guelfs wore them on the other. If Ghibellines cut fruit crosswise, Guelfs cut it straight down. If Ghibellines wore white roses, Guelfs wore red. In Crema the Ghibellines of Milan tore a statue of Christ from a church altar and burned it because its face was turned in what was considered a Guelf direction. In Ghibelline Bergamo some Calabrians were murdered by their hosts who discovered from their way of eating garlic that they were Guelfs.

"The timid weakness of individuls, the insecurity of groups, and the delusion of superiority generated perpetual fear, suspicion, dislike, and contempt of the different, the alien, and the strange."

How fortunate we are that such petty rivalries and ridiculous hates don't exist these days.

Robby

Rich7
January 7, 2007 - 06:30 am
The mountainous spine of Italy kept the city states physically and socially separated...The kind of separation that leads to suspicion and intolerance.

This topographic feature also served Italy in a positive way by making it very difficult for an invader to conquer, occupy and control all of Italy at once.

As recent as WWII the Allies got bogged down by landing in Salerno and Anzio, then trying to fight their way up the mountainous boot of Italy. A relatively small German force made that progress very slow and costly.

Napoleon knew Italy better. He is reputed to have said, "Like a boot, Italy is best entered from the top." Earlier, even Hannibal understood, taking his forces into Italy from the north. Even then, he had to accomplish the task of crossing the Alps to get there.

Rich

Éloïse De Pelteau
January 7, 2007 - 07:37 am
UNIFICATION OF ITALY FROM 1859 TO 1920

robert b. iadeluca
January 7, 2007 - 07:45 am
Interesting maps, Eloise. My father, who was born in 1892, used to tell me about the King of Italy and the different states, showing that the change to the Italy we now know did not happen "that long ago."

Robby

Scrawler
January 7, 2007 - 08:50 am
I know that where I lived in San Jose, California I lived between two warring gangs. You would be in trouble if you wore a certain color on one side of the street and not the other. Since I knew all the kids in both gangs since they were knee-high to a grasshopper, they treated me differently. They even collaborated with each other to protect me from other gangs in the area. But when the chips were down they were both fighting over the same piece of turf. Are these gangs of today any different than the people of the individual states fighting each other back in the century we are reading about?

Traude S
January 7, 2007 - 10:44 am
The summarization of the Perspective is clear and well-worded; "lava of hate" especially felicitous.

ÊLOÎSE, thank you for the maps. They make things so much clearer IMHO.
The acreage of the papal states is still large in both maps. It did not last.
The centuries-long struggle between the church and the secular power came to an end with the Lateran Treaty, also called Lateran Pact, of 1929:

wherein the papacy recognized the state of Italy with Rome as its capital. Italy in return recognized papal sovereignty over the (relatively minute) area of Vatican City, comprising 44 hectares = 109 acres, and secured full independence of the pope. Additional measures were taken, but I will not mention them in order not to digress.

gaj
January 7, 2007 - 03:41 pm
In reading how the city states could go to war over anything got me to remembering an old Star Trek (William Shanter's) episode. They were on a planet where half the people were white on their right side and black on their left side. The other half were the opposite with black on their right side and white on the left side. I forget which side considered themselves the most superior. Of course the Captain couldn't understand the difference.

bluebird24
January 7, 2007 - 06:32 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francesco_Landini

Justin
January 7, 2007 - 10:34 pm
Bluebird: Landini,faced with public preferences for "street music",did what most serious composers of music have done for centuries. He regretted the preference. Even today, the cadence of "rap music" is more attractive than the music of Bernstein but Bernstin responded in a different way. He incorporated "street music" in his compositions. He was not the first, however, to do this. Greig did it as did many others. Mal has good handle on this topic if we can get her to comment.

mabel1015j
January 7, 2007 - 11:20 pm
that will be on tomorrow (Monday) night at 9:00 is "Engineering an Empire: Da Vinci's World" It's not specifically about his inventions, but about the Renaissance world......jean

Justin
January 8, 2007 - 12:32 am
Thank You Jean for the Heads-up. I will look for it. We should be able to examine it with some awareness of the period although the period of Leonardo occurred after the peak had been reached and the Renaissance was giving way to Mannerism. What followed was the Counter Reformation and the Baroque. Much of the intercity warfare however, continued during his life and that influenced many of his inventions.

Leonardo's inventions were all here in the San Francisco Bay area in 1987 and were accessible to us for many weeks. These were physical implementations of the inventions that we could touch and operate at will. The experience was memorable.

robert b. iadeluca
January 8, 2007 - 06:48 am
"Petrarch had dreamed that Rienzo might make Italy one.

"When that bubble burst he turned like Dante to the head of the Holy Roman Empire, theoretically the secular heir to all the temporal powers of the pagan Roman Empire in the West. Soon after Rienzo's retirement Petrarch addressed a stirring message to Charles IV, King of Bohemia and, as 'King of the Romans,' heir apparent to the Imperial throne. Let the King come down to Rome and be crowned emperor, the poet pleaded. Let him make Rome, not Prague, his capital. Let him restore unity, order, and peace to 'the garden of the Empire' -- Italy.

"When Charles crossed the Alps in 1354 he invited Petrarch to meet him at Mantua and listened courteously to appeals echoing the impassioned pleas of Dante to Charles' grandfather, Henry VII. But Charles, having no force adequate to conquer all the despots of Lombardy and all the citizens of Florence and Venice, hurried to Rome, got himself crowned by a papal prefect for lack of a pope and then hastened back to Bohemia, sedulously selling Imperial vicariates on the way.

"Two yeas later Petrarch went to him in Frague as Milanese ambassador but with no significant results for Italy."

Discretion is the better part of valor.

Robby

Rich7
January 8, 2007 - 07:09 am
Had to look that one up.

Sedulous: Persevering and constant in effort or application; assiduous.

Interesting that "assiduous" is a synonym for sedulous. Durant might have told us, "Boccaccio had never been a sedulous thinker," but somehow "assiduous" sounds better in that sentence, and "sedulous" sounds better in the story about Charles IV.

Rich

winsum
January 8, 2007 - 10:50 am
Durant showing us that he is a??? thinker. By this time I'm not sure what kind of thinker only that he does . . .THINK. . .Claire

EllieC1113
January 8, 2007 - 11:40 am
Just want to mention to the group that I borrowed three videos/DVDs regarding travel in various parts of Italy. This discussion group set that activity in motion. The only part of Italy I have been in, and very recently, at that, has been Rome. I feel very immersed now in the culture that we are studying.

I am just thinking about whether small local governments are better or worse than unified central governments. Who said "All politics is local?"

Justin
January 8, 2007 - 02:05 pm
The trick of peace may lie in getting geo-political entities to talk rather than to fight.Merger seems to work. Italy's merger in the Lateran seems to have ended the Italian squabbling. The European Union and NATO may have ended European fighting. Common goals, it seems to me, are essential in the search for peace.

The States in the US were joined under a constitution and were talking when they broke apart. They had talked for eighy-five years before the break finally came because the goals of North and South were not sufficiently common. Had the folks in Philadelphia not ducked the slavery question the goals might have been more common but the union might not have been formed at all.Today, with that issue resolved,there is no question stressful enough to drive the American States apart.

robert b. iadeluca
January 8, 2007 - 05:42 pm
"Perhaps there would have been no Renaissance if Petrarch had had his way.

"The fragmentation of Italy favored the Renaissance. Large states promote order and power rather than liberty or art. The commercial rivalry of the Italian cities inaugurated and completed the work of the Crusades in developing the economy and wealth of Italy.

"The variety of political centers multiplied interurban strife but these modest conflicts never totaled the death and destruction caused in France by the Hundred Years' War.

"Local independence weakened the capacity of Italy to defend herself against foreign invasion but it generated a noble rivalry of the cities and princes in cultural patronage in the zeal to excel in architecture sculpture, painting, education, scholarship, poetry.

"Renaissance Italy, like Goethe's Germany, had many Parises.

"We need not exaggerate to appreciate the degree in which Petrarch and Boccaccio prepared the Renaissance. Both were still mortgaged to medieval ideas.

"The great storyteller, in his lusty youth, laughed at clerical immorality and relicmongering but so had millions of medieval men and women. He became more orthodox and medieval in those very years in which he studied Greek.

"Petrarch properly and prophetically described himself as standing between two eras. He accepted the dogmas of the Church even while he flayed the morals of Avignon. He loved the classics with a troubled conscience at the close of the Age of Faith as Jerome had loved them at its opening. He wrote excellent medieval essays on contempt of the secular world and on the holy peace of the religious life.

"Nevertheless, he was more faithful to the classics than to Laura. He sought and cherished ancient manuscripts and inspired others to do the same. He overleaped nearly all medieval authors except Augustine to regain continuity with Latin literature. He formed his manner and style on Virgil and Cicero. And he thought more of the fame of his name that of the immortality of his soul.

"His poems fostered a century of artificial sonneteering in Italy but they helped to mold the sonnets of Shakespeare. His eager spirit passed down to Pico, his polished form to Politian. His letters and essays threw a bridge of classical urbanity and grace between Seneca and Montaigne. His reconciliation of antiquity and Christianity matured in Popes Nicholas V and Leo X.

"He was truly, in these ways, the Father of the Renaissance."

Large states promote order and power rather than liberty and art?

Robby

winsum
January 8, 2007 - 10:05 pm
http://galileo.rice.edu/gal/medici.html

robert b. iadeluca
January 9, 2007 - 04:45 am
What comments do you folks have in reaction to Durant's remarks in Posts 646 and 651?

Robby

Scrawler
January 9, 2007 - 08:31 am
"He thought more of the fame of his name than of the immortality of his soul."

Isn't that the key to the Renaissance period? That the powers that be were more interested in themselves than in an after life.

The Renaissance celebrated the life of the "here and now" and of the beauty of humanity rather than what could or might not be after life. Certainly, with so many deaths from the black plague I would think those that survived would want to celebrate the fact that they were alive and what better way to show it than through art and architecture

Claire, thanks for reminding me about that history channel program that was on last night. I really enjoyed it.

winsum
January 9, 2007 - 11:43 am
You're welcome only it wasn't ME. and I missed it. Maybe there will be a repeat some time. Claire

Justin
January 9, 2007 - 12:28 pm
Petrarch, like most people, is a mixed bag.He stands between concern for the here-after and the hedonism of life in the here and now. He says he is ok on dogma but unhappy with the morality of churchmen. At the same time he admires Greek mannerisms and adopts the style of Virgil and Cicero. The Papacy had chastized him for bringing Virgil and Cicero back but he did it anyway. So here, as Scrawler says, is the essence of the Renaissance. The here-and-now triumphs over the here-after.

Fifi le Beau
January 9, 2007 - 01:22 pm
One of Boccaccio's most hilarious stories tells how the friar Cipolla, to raise a good collection, promised his audience to display "a very holy relic, one of the angel Gabriel's feathers, which remained in the Virgin Mary's chamber after the Annunciation."

Relicmongering was rampant during Boccaccio's and Petrarch's day as was the selling of positions in the church. All this and more will lead to the Reformation and fearmongering along with other ills.

Fifi

BaBi
January 9, 2007 - 04:39 pm
Large states promote order and power rather than liberty and art?

Large states definitely tend to promote order, as they reduce the number of rivals. But all states promote power wherever, whenever, and however they can, IMO. As a state acquires order and sufficient power to feel secure, it appears to me they also permit more liberty. The more secure state can then foster art to promote the public image, and the artists flourish under the greater liberty.

When I think about it, it seems the first appearance of the promotion of art by the State is in the design and construction of public buildings. Is architecture the first art to benefit from government support, do you think, as opposed to the support of painters and poets by wealthy families? Just a thought.

Babi

robert b. iadeluca
January 9, 2007 - 04:58 pm
"All the bases of the Renaissance had been established by the time of Petrarch's death.

"The amazing growth and zest of Italian trade and industry had gathered the wealth that financed the movement, and the passage from rural peace and stagnation to urban vitality and stimulus had begotten the mood that nourished it.

"The political basis had been prepared in the freedom and rivalry of the cities -- in the overthrow of an idle aristocracy -- in the rise of educated princes and a virile bourgeoisie.

"The literary basis had been prepared in the improvement of the vernacular languages and in the zeal for recovering and studying the classics of Greece and Rome.

"The ethical bases had been laid. Increasing wealth was breaking down old moral restraints. Contact with Islam in commerce and Crusades had encouraged a new tolerance for doctrinal and moral deviations from traditional beliefs and ways. The rediscovery of a pagan world relatively free in thought and conduct shared in undermining medieval dogmas and morality.

"Interest in a future life gave ground before secular, human, earthly concerns. Esthetic development proceeded. The medieval hymns -- the cycles of romance -- the songs of the troubadours -- the sonnets of Dante and his Italian predecessors -- the sculptured harmony and form of The Divine Comedy -- had left a heritage of literary art.

"The classic models transmitted a refinement of taste and thought, a polish and politeness of speech and style, to Petrarch, who would bequeath it to an international dynasty of urbane genius from Erasmus to Anatole France. And a revolution in art had begun when Giotto abandoned the mystic rigor of Byzantine mosaices to study men and women in the actual flow and natural grace of their lives.

"In Italy all roads were leading to the Renaissance."

Your comments, please?

Robby

Fifi le Beau
January 9, 2007 - 05:44 pm
Babi, you are so right about architecture. It is usually the first art to be seen in any civilization. To design and build a structure of beauty is as much an art as any of the other recognized crafts. It is sometimes the only art many of the citizens will ever see.

Paintings easily disappeared into private hands or museums.

Music was sometimes lost as custom and culture changed.

Without a literate society, books were only for the few, not the many.

A public building however was enjoyed by all. Here is a picture of the State Capitol in Nashville, Tennessee. It is built on a hill, and I can speak for its height since I have climbed those steps from street level, and it's not a molehill. The view of Nashville and the river is spectacular.

http://travel.webshots.com/photo/1077128234040229163RQnPPm

Fifi

Justin
January 9, 2007 - 07:25 pm
Fifi:Thanks for the image of the State capitol in Nashville. It is a neoclassical structure with the horizontal lines of the Renaissance.The columns preceding the facade are topped with Ionic capitals and from what I recall, limited entassis. The entablature and pedimenti are free of decoration. The metopes are hidden. The tower base is Richardsonian and the lantern brings us back to the Renaissance.

Nashville is also host to a full size replica of the Parthenon complete with golden Goddess Athena. Many of the characteristics of the state capitol many be found on the Parthenon. The rather technical description of the state capitol above allows one to make a comparison.

Architecture and sculpture tend to come first from government. Sculpture appears because the ruler wants to be recognized. Architecture appears as a symbol of governmental power.

gaj
January 9, 2007 - 09:03 pm
I wonder how much that went into private hands was lost as time moved on? Still is happening sad to say.

Bubble
January 10, 2007 - 01:19 am
"Increasing wealth was breaking down old moral restraints."

It always amazes me how these two things become linked together. We expect poors to be more moral, easily we accept broken laws from the wealthier. For them it would only be a small infringement. Is that a product of civilization?

Mallylee
January 10, 2007 - 03:10 am
I cannot quite understand the difference between 'the mystic rigour 'of mediaeval pictures, and humanist pictures. If I had the pictures side by side I may understand better.

I have a few pointers, such as the iconic quality of the mediaeval, compared with the more everyday quality of the post-Renaissance. And the facial expressions permitted to post-Renaissance artists. More than that, I don't know.

Same for all the other art forms. I wish I knew of comparisons, with real illustrations, perhaps one typical example of each of pre- and post-Renaissance thought.

Similarly with 'moral restraints'---I wish Durant would illustrate with examples. Historical commentary that is too general makes little improvement, if any, on my lack of understanding

robert b. iadeluca
January 10, 2007 - 04:53 am
Please note the change in the GREEN quotes in the Heading indicating where we are now and the direction in which we are going.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
January 10, 2007 - 04:56 am
The Popes in Avignon

robert b. iadeluca
January 10, 2007 - 04:57 am
The Babylonian Captivity

robert b. iadeluca
January 10, 2007 - 05:04 am
"In 1309 Pope Clement V removed the papacy from Rome to Avignon

"He was a Frenchman, the former bishop of Bordeaux. He owed his election to Philip IV of France who had starled all Christendom by not only defeating Pope Boniface VIII but arresting him, humiliating him, and almost starving him to death.

"Clement's life would be unsafe in a Rome that reserved to itself the right to maltreat a pope and resented the insolent irreverence of the King. Moreover, the French cardinals formed now a large majority in the Sacred College and refused to entrust themselves to Italy. So Clement stayed awhile at Lyons and Poitiers.

"Then, hoping to be less subject to Philip in a territory owned by the King of Naples as couant of Provence, he took up his residence in Avignon, just across the Rhone from fourteenth century France."

Robby

winsum
January 10, 2007 - 12:40 pm
and Robby and others. It's time for our professional art historian and teacher to bring us up to date. JUSTIN???

This guy is easy to understand. you might start here. . . claire

http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/vinci/sketch/

robert b. iadeluca
January 10, 2007 - 01:53 pm
Claire:-I'm not ignoring art. I just keep posting Durant's remarks in the order in which they are presented in the volume. Participants comment on whatever subtopic interests them.

This has always been a fast moving discussion group. Even then, it ordinarily takes at least a year to complete a volume.

I suggest strongly that all participants check in every day -- we move faster than almost all other discussion groups -- sometimes twice daily might help you keep up to date. Posting daily might also help to cover everyone's interests.

As shown in the GREEN quotes, we are now discussing The Popes in Avignon. However, comments related to previous postings are always welcome.

Robby

winsum
January 10, 2007 - 06:15 pm

winsum
January 10, 2007 - 06:17 pm
When were these eleven volumes published?

I just looked it up. This is all angient history and hasn't been well received as per statement in google item. see the following.

" From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia The Story of Civilization Author Will Durant Ariel Durant Language English Subject(s) History Publisher Simon and Schuster Released 1935-1975 ISBN ISBN 0-671-21988-X The Story of Civilization by Will and Ariel Durant (ISBN 0-671-21988-X) is an 11 volume set of books. It was written over a lifetime and totals two million words. The series is incomplete: in the first book of the series (Our Oriental Heritage, which covers the history of the East through 1933), Mr. Durant stated that he wanted to include the history of the West through the early 20th century. However, the series ends with The Age of Napoleon since the Durants died before any additional volumes could be completed."

Claire

This is wht's ahead of us. . .no art in sight.
 
1 Series Outline 
1.1 I. Our Oriental Heritage (1935) 
1.2 II. The Life of Greece (1939) 
1.3 III. Caesar and Christ (1944) 
1.4 IV. The Age of Faith (1950) 
1.5 V. The Renaissance (1953) 
1.6 VI. The Reformation (1957) 
1.7 VII. The Age of Reason Begins (1961) 
1.8 VIII. The Age of Louis XIV (1963) 
1.9 IX. The Age of Voltaire (1965) 
1.10 X. Rousseau and Revolution (1967) 
1.11 XI. The Age of Napoleon (1975) 
2 Criticism 
3 Footnotes 
4 See also 


'Includes the publishing dates for each volume.

bluebird24
January 10, 2007 - 06:31 pm
http://www.palais-des-papes.com/anglais/index.html

click on white words

bluebird24
January 10, 2007 - 06:34 pm
beautiful

winsum
January 10, 2007 - 06:38 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Story_of_Philosophy

beginning with Plato . . .

Claire

Justin
January 10, 2007 - 06:58 pm
Clair: Civilization is a function of four elements only one of which is art and that comes at the culmination of society.However, the civilization of Italy is so advanced in spite of the constant rivalry betwen the city-states that art is a very prominent part of the story. But in order to understand why art played such a large role in the Italian civilization we must look at the role of literary artists such as Petrarch and Boccaccio. The painters will come a little later. I promise you.

robert b. iadeluca
January 10, 2007 - 08:07 pm
The following quote is taken from the Heading above. These are the four elements of which Justin spoke.

"Four elements constitute Civilization -- economic provision, political organization, moral traditions, and the pursuit of knowledge and the arts."

Robby

winsum
January 10, 2007 - 08:41 pm
btw Durant was not a historian or even listed with the academics. From the google article.

Criticism

The Story of Civilization has been criticized for simplifications, rash judgements colored by personal convictions, and story-telling, and described as a careless dabbling in historical scholarship. Professor J. H. Plumb's opinion on the series was that “historical truth… can rarely be achieved outside the professional world [of historians].”[1]. However, Durant’s purpose in writing the series was not to create a definitive scholarly production but to make a large amount of information accessible and comprehensible to the educated public in the form of a comprehensive "composite history."

winsum
January 10, 2007 - 08:43 pm
For my purposes this is a waste of time and eyesight.

Claire

Bubble
January 11, 2007 - 12:29 am
Claire, art might be your main interest, but personally I find that the historical background is necessary and IMO interesting: it gives a vast panorama of the time. In SoC there is food for very different people.

Even if incomplete or less accurate than J.H.Plumb wishes, SoC is still a great achievement, plus wonderfully written. I enjoy it. I often thank Robby for his initiative. Bubble

Éloïse De Pelteau
January 11, 2007 - 01:46 am
Right Bubble.

Claire, in spite of Durant's liberties and rash judgment, I still read S of C every day and after 5 years of the same, I expect history to repeat itself. His prose is sometimes more poetic than historic, the title of the series is Story of Civilization and it is excellent in my opinion.

I find that the 4 elements mentioned above are starting to overlap one another, when before they used to come in one after the other in each civilization.

Mal is having problems with her burns right now, unfortunately. I hope she gets better soon.

hats
January 11, 2007 - 04:45 am
Eloise, that's bad news about Mal. Thanks for telling us.

robert b. iadeluca
January 11, 2007 - 04:57 am
Claire:-There are other discussion groups in Senior Net which talk about art and which perhaps might satisfy your specific needs more than Story of Civilization.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
January 11, 2007 - 05:07 am
Durant continues:--

"The immense effort of the papacy from Gregory VII to Boniface VIII to form a European world state by subordinating the kings to the popes had failed.

"Nationalism had triumphed over a theocratic federalism. Even in Italy the republics of Florence and Venice, the city states of Lombardy, and the Kingdom of Naples rejected ecclesiastical control. A republic twice raised its head in Rome.

"In the other Papal States military adventurers or feudal magnagtes -- Baglioni, Bentivogli, Malatestas, Manfredi, Sforzas -- were replacing the vicars of the Church with their own swashbuckling authority.

"The papacy in Rome had yielded the prestige of centuries and the nations had learned to do it homage and send it fees. But a papacy of continuously French pontiffs, almost imprisoned by the kings of France and lending them great sums to carry on their wars, seemed to Germany, Bohemia, Italy, and England a hostile power, the psychological weapon of the French monarchy.

"Increasingly those nations ignored its excommunications and interdicts and only with rising reluctance yielded it a declining reverence."

Two great powers -- the state vs the church -- pitted against each other.

Robby

Traude S
January 11, 2007 - 09:22 am
Exactly, two great powers fighting for supremacy for centuries in epochal personal conflicts between a pope and a Holy Roman Emperor, like the one beween Henry IV and Pope Gregory VII that ended with a reconciliation at Canossa in 1077.

This and similar "accommodations" were seldom totally genuine, nor were they lasting. But the Renaissance brought a great awakening.

The green outline indicates that we are about to learn more in due course about the Babylonian Captivity of the Church in Avignon from 1309 to 1376.

With respect, the overlapping ÉLOÏSE has mentioned, and the ensuing repetitiveness she has not, perturbs me and, frankly, Durant's geographical leaps across the European landscape of the time can be confusing, even misleading. THAT is why I believe that maps are an important visual, necessary tool for better understanding.

The repetitiveness, of course, is built in to the structure Durant has chosen for all the volumes. Art will have its day to shine, JUSTIN assures us.
But it would be nice to view the work of some of the artists Durant has mentioned. I am sorry that MAL, web researcher sans pareil, has a setback. I hope she gets better soon - health first - and will come back here when she is ready.

winsum
January 11, 2007 - 10:00 am
http://tinyurl.com/y6hec2

and this a student effort with poetry as well as images

http://tinyurl.com/yjgp4j



And Vasari as one of his students . . .a historian of art

http://tinyurl.com/yypjt9

I'm looking at art of the renaissance anyway. . .will share. . .Claire

winsum
January 11, 2007 - 10:46 am
It's very explicite and about M's homosexuality in case you don't want to know about that.

"the passions of michelangelo"

http://www.infopt.demon.co.uk/michela.htm

fascinating look at the times. It seems that Leonardo was gay also. seems it was part of the social scheme of the day.

http://www.infopt.demon.co.uk/greatgay.htm

winsum
January 11, 2007 - 11:30 am
creative minority the driving force of history

Claire

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Study_of_History#Volumes

EllieC1113
January 11, 2007 - 11:38 am
"He overleaped nearly all medieval authors except Augustine to regain continuity with Latin literature. He formed his manner and style on Virgil and Cicero. And he thought more of the fame of his name that of the immortality of his soul.

"His reconciliation of antiquity and Christianity matured in Popes Nicholas V and Leo X."

"He was truly, in these ways, the Father of the Renaissance."

My comments: He didn't have to overleap Augustine, because Augustine tried, extremely successfully, to reconcile Christianity and Classical Greek thinking, many years before Petrarch was born. I feel irritated at Durant's comment about the two popes and Petrarch's influence on them. My time line may be incorrect, but I though St. Thomas Aquinas might have been significantly more influential on the thinking of the two popes than a secular (semi-secular) writer like Petrarch. I am still annoyed at Durant's posturing. But maybe my dates are wrong. I'll check now.

As far as the conflict between fame and immortality of one's soul is concerned: 1) Fame is lovely, and getting one's ideas out there and read or thought about is wonderful. 2) For those of us who believe in some sense, in the immortality of one's soul, my perspective is that he was a brilliant man, and he told the truth as he saw it, on a very deep level. Stating complex ideas in a way that is true to one's honest perception is of the utmost importance. Leaving a legacy that we can discuss in the 21st Century is a measure of immortality open to us human beings.

Eleanor

Justin
January 11, 2007 - 03:15 pm
In the struggle between Church and State, it is clear to me, that the Babylonian Captivity represents a significant decline in the European power of the Papacy. We will see as history advances that it was all down hill for the Papacy from that point on. The effort to return to Rome in 1370 ended in a Schism and fifty years of a dual Papacy. The effort politicized the Holy See. Divided income left the Popes bereft and stuggling to provide. Their moral excesses were so evident that ordinary people like Saint Francis would hear heavenly exhortations to "Heal my Church". The Papacy is well on the road to the Protestant secession.

Rich7
January 11, 2007 - 03:52 pm
but I suddenly find Traude and Justin referring to "the Babylonian captivity of the Pope." Whoa, how did he get to Babylon? Last time I checked the reading he was in Avignon.

This cleared it up for me.

http://faculty.ucc.edu/egh-damerow/avignon_papacy.htm

Apparently it's an allegorical reference to the actual captivity of the Jews in Babylon. Interestingly, it was Martin Luther who helped make the phrase "Babylonian captivity" popular in reference to the Pope's residence in Avignon.

Rich

BaBi
January 11, 2007 - 04:26 pm
Well put, ELEANOR. A very thoughtful commentary.

Babi

gaj
January 11, 2007 - 04:51 pm
A few years ago I visited the Metropolatin Museum Of Art. One of the pieces I saw was hard to describe. Here is a link to it at the Met

http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/ho/08/euwl/hod_17.190.475.htm

It was done in the Low Lands timeline about 1400.

BaBi
January 11, 2007 - 04:56 pm
Marvelous work, Ginny Ann. Would one have an entire rosary of such beads? Surely such work must be costly. Could they be opened, if strung together, I wonder? This sort of object should, IMO, be available to open and meditate over.

Thanks for posting it; it's beautiful!

Babi

Éloïse De Pelteau
January 11, 2007 - 05:16 pm
POPE GREGORY VII" Born: c. 1020 - Birthplace: Sovana, Italy - Died: 25-May-1085

POPE BONIFACE VIII ANNOUNCING THE JUBILEE OF 1300

robert b. iadeluca
January 11, 2007 - 06:12 pm
Rich, you had, indeed, been paying attention. We just hadn't yet reached that point in Durant's volume, as indicated in the GREEN quotes above.

Robby

Justin
January 11, 2007 - 06:18 pm
Nice piece Ginny Ann. It is from the Northern Renaissance in the Low Countries. We will probably go there after Italy.

People traveling during the Renaissance and they did travel as Chaucer points out so well, carried with them little devotional objects which they could address at night before bedtime. The Tres Riche Heures of the Duke De Berry which we have seen earlier is a prime example.

Some folks carried small altars carved in wood. Reimanschneider did much of this work and was much in demand. The one you have shown us from the Met is a small altar. It opens into a triptych with a predella on the bottom. Rosary beads are something else. They are used for telling prayer and symbolically addressing the mysteries of the Blessed Virgin. There is a central bead in the rosary chain that is often larger than the others and this two inch diameter object could have been such but I doubt it. It's theme is only partially that of the virgin.

robert b. iadeluca
January 11, 2007 - 06:20 pm
"Against these difficulties Clement V labored with patience, if not with fortitude.

"He bowed as little as he could to Philip IV who held over Clement's head the threat of a scandalous post-mortem inquest into the private conduct and beliefs of Boniface VIII.

"Harassed for funds, the Pope sold ecclesiastical benefices to the highest bidder. But he lent tacit approval to the merciless reports that the mayor of Angers and the bishop of Mende presented on the subject of clerical morals and Church reform to the Council of Vienne.

"He himself led a clean and frugal life and practiced an undemonstrative piety. He protected the great physician and critic of the Church, Arnold of Villanova, from persecution for heresy. He reorganized medical studies at Montpellier on Greek and Arabic texts and tried -- though he failed -- to establish chairs of Hebrew, Syriac, and Arabid in the universities. To all his troubles was added a painful disease -- lupulus, probably a fistula -- which compelled him to shun society and killed him in 1314.

"In a better environment he would have been an ornament to the Church."

How does a moral leader excuse the immoralities of his institution?

Robby

Justin
January 11, 2007 - 06:22 pm
Robby: We could not ignore Posts 666 and 667 in large letters.

Éloïse De Pelteau
January 12, 2007 - 05:22 am
Here is a political MAP OF 14TH CENTURY EUROPE.

When Durant mentions Rome he is actually talking about the Holy Roman Empire which was the most powerful country of the time. When I hear "Washington" mentioned in the news, it really means the United States, just to compare the political influence Rome had in the affairs of 'civilized' 14th century Europe.

robert b. iadeluca
January 12, 2007 - 05:40 am
An excellent map, Eloise!! Thank you.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
January 12, 2007 - 05:51 am
"The chaotic interregnum that followed revealed the temper of the times.

"Dante wrote to the Italian cardinals urging them to hold out for an Italian pope and a return to Rome. But only six of the twenty three cardinals were Italian. When the conclave met in a locked room at Carpentras, near Avignon, it was surrounded by a Gascon populace that shouted:-'Death to the Italian cardinals!'

"The houses of these prelates were attacked and destroyed. The crowd set fire to the building that housed the conclave. The cardinals broke a passage through the rear wall and fled from the fire and the mob.

"For two years no further attempt was made to choose a pope. Finally at Lyons, under the protection of French soldiery, the cardinals raised to the papacy a man already seventy two years of age who might reasonably be expected to die soon but who was destined to rule the Church for eighteen years with rugged zeal, insatiable avidity, and imperial will.

"John XXII had been born at Cahors in southern France, the son of a cobbler. It was the second time that a cobbler's son had risen by the remarkable democracy of an authoritarian Church, to the highest place in Christendom. Urban IV had shown the way. employed as a teacher for the children of the French king of Naples.

"John studied civil and canon law with such aptitude that the king took him into favor. On the king's recommendation, Boniface VIII made him bishop of Frejus and Clement V raised him to the see of Avignon.

"At Carpentras the gold of Robert of Naples silenced the patriotism of the Italian cardinals and the cobbler's son became one of the strongest of the popes."

"The remarkable democracy of an authoritarian Church."

Robby

EllieC1113
January 12, 2007 - 11:38 am
"The remarkable democracy of an authoritarian Church."

My comments: In those days, all institutions were much more authoritarian than the way things are in the present. People who governed usually got into that position via war and bloodshed, possibly followed by inheriting a position of power from one's father. There was a huge amount of violence in everyday life, I bet much more than we see on the streets of NYC nowadays. So the Church, filled with fallible human beings, was largely authoritarian. The democracy of reaching the Papacy from humble beginnings is very notable and admirable.

Mallylee
January 12, 2007 - 12:09 pm
Thank you Eloise for that most interesting and informative map. I dont quite understand the website Does one have to pay to be admitted to all the other maps?

Justin
January 12, 2007 - 01:29 pm
Democracy in an authoritarian Church is not an unusual marriage.A very similar condition exists in contemporary American politics. The College of Cardinals is democratic (one man one vote) in it's selection process and subject to the usual influences of democratic voting. Bribery of the six Italian cardinals should not surprise anyone. Once elected, however, the new pope assumes more authoritarian power than any dictator in history. In matters of faith and morals he is infallible.

BaBi
January 12, 2007 - 01:43 pm
Thank you for the portraits of Clement VI and Boniface, Eloise. I was surprised to find that the 11th century portrait of Clement appeared to be an accurate representation of the man, while the 14th century Boniface was more stylized and vague.

JUSTIN, your explanation of the beautiful carved wooden 'bead' made much more sense. I could not see how such an object, opening as it did, could be used in a rosary.

John XXII was a tough old bird. Aptitude will always make a difference, esp. if it has zeal..and perhaps a bit of avidity..to inspire it.

Babi

winsum
January 12, 2007 - 01:53 pm
religion taking over again. bye . . .claire

Traude S
January 12, 2007 - 04:05 pm
ÉLOÏSE, special thanks for the map of 14th century Europe, one of the best I've seen.

It clearly shows the extent of the Holy Roman Empire and also the location of Venice on the Adriatic, and Genua on the Thyrrenian Sea, on the other side of the Italian boot. The size of the papal states is quite remarkable, too.

Éloïse De Pelteau
January 12, 2007 - 04:38 pm
Mallylee, no you don't have to pay to access those maps, I just Googled for a political map of Europe around 1340 and dug a bit before I found this one. Sometimes statistics and maps give us more information than a 'biased' opinion.

It surprised me too that the Papal state was so large at the time Traude, as compared with the size of the Vatican today.

robert b. iadeluca
January 12, 2007 - 08:27 pm
Claire:-Regarding your comment that "religion is taking over again." This discussion is not about art. It is about the progress of "civilization." There will be long periods of time when the topic of art will not arise. We will be discussing economics, religion,politics, morals and other components of civilization.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
January 12, 2007 - 08:37 pm
"John's successor was a man of gentler mold.

"Benedict XII, the son of a baker, tried to be a Christian as well as a pope. He resisted the temptation to distribute offices among his relatives. He earned an honorable hostility by bestowing benefices for merits, not for fees.

"He repressed bribery and corruption in all branches of Church administration. He alienated the mendicant orders by commanding them to reform. He was never known to be cruel or to shed blood in war.

"All the forces of corruption rejoiced at his early death."

Apparently it was difficult to be both a Christian and a pope simultaneously.

Robby

gaj
January 12, 2007 - 09:01 pm
It does sound like an either or situation for the pope. But that is really a too simplistic view. As they say the winners write the history books. I think that the fact we are asking the question shows the changes in general attitude of the world of today compared to Benedict XII's time.

tooki
January 12, 2007 - 09:52 pm
I hope you all enjoy this recent portrait of Dante where he looks quite human.

http://www.artdaily.org/index.asp?int_sec=11&int_new=18869&int_modo=1

EllieC1113
January 12, 2007 - 11:02 pm
I loved Durant's comment: "All the forces of corruption rejoiced at his early death."

If a person tries to behave virtuously, he may not win too many popularity contests. Especially with those who don't care all that much about virtue.

Bubble
January 13, 2007 - 02:04 am
I wonder if the actual Pope wants to take Benedict XII as model.

Mallylee
January 13, 2007 - 03:47 am
Thanks Eloise. I will be googling for more of these. They are so much more informative than words, when I am trying to compare. The info about the Holy Roman Empire, and also the Islamic states is particularly interesting. Also the way what we now call Italy is split into different states

robert b. iadeluca
January 13, 2007 - 05:49 am
"Clement VI, born of a noble house in Limousin, was accustomed to luxury, gaiety, and art, and could not understand why a pope should be austere when the papal treasury was full.

"Almost all who came to him for appointments secured them. No one, he said, should depart from him unsatisfied. He announced that any poor clergyman who should come to him within the next two months would partke of his bounty. An eyewitness reckoned that 100,000 came.

"He gave rich gifts to artists and poets, maintained a stud of horses equal to any in Christendom, admitted women freely to his court, enjoyed their charms, and mingled with them in Gallic gallantry. The countess of Turenne was so close to him that she sold ecclesiastical preferments with careless publicity.

"Hearing of Clement's good nature, the Romans sent an embassy inviting him to reside in Rome. He did not relish the prospect but he appeased them by declaring that the jubilee, which Boniface VIII had established in 1300 for every hundred years, should be clebrated every half century.

"Rome rejoiced at the news, deposed Rienzo, and renewed its political submission to the popes."

If ya can't fight 'em, join 'em.

Robby

Rich7
January 13, 2007 - 07:01 am
From Durant: "Clement VI, born of a noble house in Limousin, was accustomed to luxury, gaiety, and art, and could not understand why a pope should be austere when the papal treasury was full.

Because the words are so similar, I had to know if there was a connection. There is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limousin_(province)

The limousine car is named after the region because the inhabitants (of Limousin) wore a hood with a profile perceived to be similar to that of the car.

I suppose if they had been available at the time, and, given his love for the good life, Clement VI would have insisted that he be driven about in a limousine.

Rich

BaBi
January 13, 2007 - 08:07 am
Apparently it was difficult to be both a Christian and a pope simultaneously

I would say rather that a Christian makes an excellent, but very unpopular, pope. Nobody likes the man who interferes with their enjoyment of their vices.

Popes like Clement VI, on the other hand, were greatly instrumental in the decline of respect for the Church and its loss of influence. We have seen parallels of this in modern times, certainly.

Babi

Éloïse De Pelteau
January 13, 2007 - 08:23 am
Babi,

EllieC1113
January 13, 2007 - 09:05 am
I liked reading your comment, Babi, and I totally agree with it.

As far as Popes are concerned, I prefer Benedict XII to Clement VI. Clement was a "people pleaser." Benedict XII, on the other hand, was much more firmly grounded in "what is the right thing to do." From what I know of the current Pope Benedict (XVI), he is totally brilliant. I have watched him on TV giving the same homily in several languages, well pronounced, and profoundly thought-provoking. His English, while spoken with a German accent, is excellent. His French is even better.

Scrawler
January 13, 2007 - 09:39 am
"Alongside the rascals and the scandals, decency and piety existed as ever. No single characteristic ever overtakes an entire society. Many people of all classes in the Renaissance still worshipped God, trusted in the saints, wanted spiritual reassurance and led non-criminal lives. Indeed, it was "because" genuine religous and moral feeling was still present that dismay at the corruption of the clergy and especially of the Holy See was so acute and the yearning for reform was so strong. If all Italians had lived by the amoral example of their leaders, the depravity of the popes would have been no cause for protest." ~ "The Renaissance Popes Provoke the Protestant Secession": "The March of Folly" p. 60

I think that the above paragraph is something to keep in mind as we read about the popes. Throughout history there have been times when it seems that "the inmates are in charge" but as history has proven cooler heads will adventually take over.

Traude S
January 13, 2007 - 02:20 pm
Durant's characterization of the popes is colorful and more vivid than what can be found in the Catholic Encyclopedia e.g. However, the succession of the popes may be worth another look.

In # 702 we learn about the "chaotic interregnum", i.e. the time after the return to Rome of Pope Gregory XI in 1378 , more precisely, after Gregory XI's death. He was the last of that group of Avignon popes.

Now Durant goes back to describe the individual Avignon popes, beginning, as he did, with Clement V, who was "persuaded" by the French king to move there.

John XXII, Benedict XII and Clement VI also resided in Avignon. And so did Innocent VI, Urban V and Gregory XI - until his return. I assume that we'll read about the last three in the next quote.

It will be interesting to see "what comes next", i.e. after the death of Gregory XI, the beginning of the Western Schism.

Éloïse De Pelteau
January 13, 2007 - 04:45 pm
Here are the THE 10 POPES OF THE 14TH CENTURY. 10 Popes in only a century?

EllieC1113
January 13, 2007 - 04:54 pm
One of the Popes on the list of 10 was 30 years old. Undoubtedly a seasoned source of great wisdom. Although what was the average life expectancy at the time? I wonder.

robert b. iadeluca
January 13, 2007 - 05:51 pm
"Under Clement VI Avignon became the capital not only of the religion but of the politics, culture, pleasure, and corruption of the Latin world.

"Now the administrative machinery of the Church took its definitive form:--an Apostolic Chamber (camera apostolica) in charge of finances, and headed by a papal chamberlain (camerarius) who was second in dignity to the pope alone -- a Papal Chancery (cancelleria) whose seven agencies, directed by a cardinal vice chancellor, handled the complex correspondence of the See -- a Papal Judiciary composed of prelates and laymen learned in canon law -- and including the Consistory -- the pope and his cardinals acting as a court of appeals -- and an Apostolic Penitentiary -- a college of clergy who dealt with marital dispensations, excommunication and interdict, and heard the confessions of those seeking papal abasolution.

"To house the pope and his aides, these ministries and agencies, their staffs and servants, Benedict XII began, and Urban V completed, the immense Palace of the Popes, a congeries of Gothic buildings -- living chambers, council halls, chapels, and offfices -- enclosing two courts, and themselves enclosed by mighty ramparts whose height and breadth and massive towers suggest that the popes, if besieged, would rely on no miracle for their defense.

"Benedict XII invited Giotto to come and decorate the palace and the adjoining cathedral. Giotto planned to come but died and in 1338 Benedict summoned from Siena Simone Marrini, whose frescoes, now obliterated, marked the zenith of painting in Avignon.

"Around the palace, in lesser palaces, mansions, tenements, and hovels, gathered a great population of prelates, envoys, lawyers, merchants, artists, poets, servants, soldiers, beggars, and prostitutes of every grade from cultured courtesans to tavern tarts.

"Here, for the most part, dwelt those bishops in partibus infidelium who were appointed to sees that had fallen into the hands of non-Christians."

And surrounding all this, I assume, was a great aura of humility.

Robby

bluebird24
January 13, 2007 - 06:09 pm
http://www2.art.utah.edu/cathedral/

click on avignon beautiful windows:) there is a dog in 1 window

hats
January 14, 2007 - 04:17 am
Bluebird, thank you. I do see the dog too.

Éloïse De Pelteau
January 14, 2007 - 04:45 am
ITALIAN FRESCOES IN THE AGE OF GIOTTO - SAN FRANCESCO prio to the 1997 earthquake. Each frescoe more beautiful than the other. I wonder if the earthquake destroyed the whole church or only part of it.

hats
January 14, 2007 - 04:51 am
Eloise, these are breathtaking. Thank you so much.

robert b. iadeluca
January 14, 2007 - 06:57 am
"We, who are inured to colossal figures, can imagine the amount of money required to support this complex administrative establishment and its entourage.

"Several sources of income were nearly dried up. Italy, deserted by the papacy, sent hardly anything. Germany, at odds with John XXII, sent half its usual tribute. France, holding the Church almost at its mercy, appropriated for secular purposes a large part of French ecclesiastical revenues, and borrowed heavily from the papacy to finance the Hundred years' War. England severely restricted the flow of money to a Church that was in effect an ally of France.

"To meet this situation the Avignon popes were driven to develop every trickle of revenue. Each bishop or abbot, whether appointed by pope or secular prince, transmitted to the Curia, as an inaugural fee, one third of his prospective income for a year and paid exasperating gratuities to the numerous intermediaries who had supported his nominations.

"If he became an archbishop he had to pay a substantial fee for the archepiscopal pallium -- a circular band of white wool, worn over the chasuble as the insignia of his office. When a new pontiff was elected, every ecclesiastical benefice or office sent him its full revenue for one year (annates) and thereafter a tenth of its revenue in each year.

"Additional voluntary contributions were expected from time to time. On the death of any cardinal, archbishop, bishop, or abbot, his personal possessions and effects belonged to the papacy. In the interim between such death and the installation of a new appointee the popes received the revenues, and paid the expenses, of the benefice and they were accused of deliberately extending this interval.

"Every ecclesiastical appointee was held responsible for dues unpaid by his predecessors. As bishops and abbots were in many cases feudal proprietors of estates received in fief from the king, they had to pay him tribute and provide him with soldiery, so that many were hard pressed to meet their combined ecclesiastical and secxular obligations. And as the papal exactions were more severe than the state's, we find the hierarchy sometimes supporting the king against the pope.

"The Avignon pontiffs almost completely ignored the ancient rights of cathedral chapters or monastic councils to choose bishops or abbots. These by-passed collators joined in the accumulating resentment.

"Cases tried in the Papal Judiciary usually required the expensive help of lawyers who had to pay an annual fee for license to plead in the papal courts. Every judgment or favor received from the Curia expected a gift in acknowledgement. Even permission to be ordained had to be bought.

"The secular governments of Europe looked with awe and fury upon the fiscal machinery of the popes."

Much to discuss here.

Robby

Bubble
January 14, 2007 - 07:10 am
"On the death of any cardinal, archbishop, bishop, or abbot, his personal possessions and effects belonged to the papacy."

I thought it was still the same today and that whoever enters the church makes a donation of all his/her possessions on taking the vows.

Rich7
January 14, 2007 - 07:33 am
Possibly the principal reason why they don't want their clergy to marry.

Rich

BaBi
January 14, 2007 - 07:47 am
SCRAWLER, I wholly agree. Elements of society are always going to one extreme or the other, causing a great deal of doom-saying to arise from alarmed moderates. Eventually, tho', the 'cooler heads' stop the extremist swing and things return closer to middle-of-the-road.

And surrounding all this, I assume, was a great aura of humility. ROBBY, do be careful. You could hurt your tongue twisting it into your cheek like that!

I am wondering who the administrative wonder was who established the governmental organization for the church at this period. Was it the Pope himself? That seems doubtful. Does Durant say?

Babi

gaj
January 14, 2007 - 01:33 pm
Years ago I took a class, provided by my parish, titled The History of the Church. The teacher was a priest. He said that during times when the church leaders were weak on 'Christianity',the laity took over, thus we have a continuation of the church. Hindsight is so '20' '20'.

Fifi le Beau
January 14, 2007 - 08:25 pm
The 'Hundred years' war' has been mentioned a couple of times in the text and it may be discussed in detail later on, but it was going on at the same time as most of the events we are reading about now.

The 'Hundred Years' War' was an episodic struggle that lasted well over one hundred years. For much of the time there was no conflict, but violent battles occasionally broke the calm for a millennium.

One of the main causes was over Acquitaine in Southwest France. The French finally turned the tide against the English when Joan of Arc led a force that defeated the English. England eventually withdrew from all France except Calais.

http://ehistory.osu.edu/middleages/hundredyearswar/overview.cfm

Fifi

EllieC1113
January 14, 2007 - 09:53 pm
I am just thinking about the extravagance of the living style that existed in the church hierarchy of the time. I have often played around with the idea of which of the "seven deadly sins" is the worst, or does the most damage. I would say greed, but maybe also pride--in the sense that people are often in battles to gain power over others. Also, regarding our day, I think that the two most recent Popes (including the present one) have been men of virtue. Both were selected partially because they were scholars. I also remember when John Paul II died, I read a book describing his dissertation topic. His field was a combination of Catholic theology and phenomenological philosophy. It presented the idea that each action performed by a human being moves him (his essence) in the direction of good or evil. Life as a series of existential choices. John Paul II really thought deeply about sin and virtue.

To add a comment about the current Pope, Benedict XVI, his first encyclical, "God is Lowe," is very well written and talks about the greatest of the virtues.

Justin
January 14, 2007 - 10:48 pm
Ellie : Do you suppose John Paul came to any conclusion on the question of whether sin is in one's action or in one's intent or in both?

Justin
January 14, 2007 - 11:13 pm
Durant is giving us in these paragraphs reasons for the spread of simony. Secular Europe was neither willing nor able to support the Papacy in the lfe style it chose to exhibit.The Hundred Years war absorbed large amounts of money and of course the presence of the Pope at Avignon made him an enemy of several European powers. When secular money dried up the Papacy had to look to itself for funds.

The Popes then looked for money in every benefice. As in todays banking practice, everything went for a fee. The sacraments sold for a fee. One couldn't be baptised or buried without paying a fee. Church offices were widely sold. Ordinations required a fee. Later, some smart cookie in the Curia thought it would be smart to sell indulgences and that proved to be a significant source of funds as well as the road to Reformation.

robert b. iadeluca
January 15, 2007 - 05:37 am
"Protests arose from every quarter and not least vigorously from churchmen themselves.

"The Spanish prelate Alvaro Pelayo, though thoroughly loyal to the papacy, wrote On the Lamentation of the Church in which he mourned that 'Whenever I entered the chambers of the ecclesiastics of the papal court, I found brokers and clergy engaged in weighing and reckoning the money that lay in heaps before them. Wolves are in control of the Church and feed on the blood' of the Christian flock.

"Cardinal Napoleone Orsini was disturbed to find that nearly all the bishoprics of Italy were the object of barter or family intrigue under Clement V.

"Edward III of England, himself adept in taxation, reminded Clement VI that 'the successor of the Apostles were commissioned to lead the Lord's sheep to the pasture, not to fleece them' and the English parliament passed several statutes to check the taxing power of the popes in Britain.

"In Germany papal collectors were hunted down, imprisoned, mutilated, in some cases strangled. In 1372 the clergy of Cologne, Bonn, Xanten and Mainz bound themselves by oath not to pay the tithe demanded by Gregory XI.

"In France many benefices were ruined by a tragic combination of war, the Black Death, pillage by brigands and the exactions of papal collectors. Many pastors abandoned their parishes."

Robby

Bubble
January 15, 2007 - 05:55 am
I believe I found the missing link between animal and civilized man. It is us. -Konrad Lorenz, ethologist, Nobel laureate (1903-1989)

Rich7
January 15, 2007 - 06:40 am
I like that quote.

It reminds me of one by Walt Kelly from the 1960's. "We have met the enemy, and he is us."

Lorenz's is more profound.

Rich

BaBi
January 15, 2007 - 08:09 am
JUSTIN, I had never put 2 & 2 together before in re. the church's money-grabbing practices and their financial crunch. Thanks for pointing it out. Sometimes I have to smack myself alongside the head and yelp, Duh!!

Babi

EllieC1113
January 15, 2007 - 08:59 am
Justin, that is a tough question. Because human behavior is often largely unconsciously (and multiply) motivated, it is hard to answer. Also people often behave compulsively in many "sinful" practices and do try to stop themselves. I have thought about this issue at length. I took a course in the Council of Trent (counterreformation). To mix theology with modern psychology, I kept thinking, "there is no true repentance without unconditional self acceptance with the 'sinful' behavior. The unconditional self acceptance (and also the idea that God loves a person unconditionally even with his/her sinful behavior) helps to give a person the strength to change." I know that John Paul II had a very sophisticated understanding of modern psychology. He certainly embodied for many people "the unconditional love of God." Benedict XVI's understanding of human beings is even more sophisticated, in my opinion. Just reading the encyclical (not finished reading it) "Deus Caritas Est (in English)" gives me a sense of the brilliance and deep spirituality of this man.

Comment on the reading: what a mess things were in the Church of that day. I get a kick out of thinking about human institutions and how the fallible human beings who comprise them can both make a wreck of things but also transform them and move things forward in positive ways. My daughter, the budding legal historian, says "do not make the false assumption that things are necessarily moving forward inevitably in a positive way." I can't help it. Things are so much better for many people than when I was growing up.

mabel1015j
January 15, 2007 - 11:19 am
Was it the fear of not getting into heaven or the "sin" of greed and status that was the major motivator in men giving in to the demands from the church? It amazes me that anyone would adhere to these demands.........jean

Justin
January 15, 2007 - 02:18 pm
Rich: If I didn't say so earlier I'll say it now. Your observation about the property rights issue in clerical marriage is significant. A cleric may have two brides if he is allowed to marry and both eligible to inherit. The legal morass in community property states would be thick enough to make a team of lawyers rich beyond their fondest dreams.

Justin
January 15, 2007 - 05:24 pm
I agree, Jean. I think it depends on how important getting into heaven is to one. If one firmly believes, there is no limit to the price one is prepared to pay. The influence of the medieval church is still upon men. We may be entering a time (The Renaissance)when its power is lessened but many men and women will not realize that till it's past.

It is nice to know however, that many seem to have had the where withall and the intellect to tell the Pope to go where all crooks are supposed to go. The Spanish Nuncio, the French and English royalties, and various German provinces, all lucrative sources of papal funds, simply dried up. This is an expression of serious rejection of Papal excesses. It might have been better had these folks rejected the ideas of the papacy rather than its interest in financial support. Would the world be more advanced in its thinking today if that had happened?

robert b. iadeluca
January 15, 2007 - 07:49 pm
"Amid the moral decay there were many prelates who were worthy of their calling and preferred the morals of Christ to those of their time.

"When we reflect that of the seven Avignon popes only one lived a life of worldly pleasure and another, John XXII, however rapacious and severe, disciplined himself to ascetic austerity.

"Another, Gregory XI, though merciless in war was in peace a man of exemplary morals and piety.

"Three -- Benedict XII, Innocent VI, and Urban V -- were men of almost saintly life. We cannot hold the popes responsible for all the vice that gathered in papal Avignon.

"The cause was wealth which has had like rsults in other times -- in the Rome of Nero, the Rome of Leo X, Paris of Louis XIV, the New York and Chicago of today.

"And as in these last cities we perceive that the vast majority of men and women lead decent lives, or practice their vices modestly, so we may presume that even in Avignon the leecher and the courtesan, the glutton and the thief, the crooked lawyer and the dishonest judge, the worldly cardinal and the faithless priest, were exceptions standing out more vividly than elsewhere because surveyed, and sometimes condoned, by the Apostolic See."

Robby

mabel1015j
January 15, 2007 - 09:54 pm
especially liked "or practice their vices modestly"......as most of us do, no?.....one of the many universalities of The Story of Civilization!......jean

robert b. iadeluca
January 16, 2007 - 04:25 am
Any comments regarding Post 748?

Robby

BaBi
January 16, 2007 - 06:49 am
I appreciate the summary in Post #748, Robbie. It had begun to seem there were far more really bad Popes; it helps to put it into perspective.

JUSTIN made an important point when he said, of the changes coming about, that "many men and women will not realize that until it's past"<. I think that's true of most of the major events of our lives. We can't clearly see what was happening until we have the vantage point of a little distance and a clearer view.

Babi

Éloïse De Pelteau
January 16, 2007 - 08:17 am
MARTIN LUTHER KING'S LAST SERMON IN MEMPHIS TENNESSEE

Post #748 "Amid the moral decay there were many prelates who were worthy of their calling and preferred the morals of Christ to those of their time". If it hadn't been for this prelate, what would the African American's situation be right now I wonder?

Rich7
January 16, 2007 - 08:17 am
I don't think I'm wrong, here, in seeing this as one of Durant's rare comparisons of the morals of contemporary time to those of the period of which he is writing.

"The cause was wealth which has had like results in other times -- in the Rome of Nero, the Rome of Leo X, Paris of Louis XIV, the New York and Chicago of today."

I wonder, exactly when did he write those words (i.e. when was "today' in New York and Chicago), and what was going on in those cities at the time that moved him to compare the leadership to Nero and the Avignon Popes?

Rich

Fifi le Beau
January 16, 2007 - 09:21 am
Rich, the Renaissance was copywrited in 1953. Durant wrote during the Thirties, Forties, and published this book in the early Fifties.

Since he included the Rome of Nero, he would have perhaps done the comparison earlier in the late Thirties and Forties while he worked on the Age of Faith, or perhaps he picked up a paper that day that detailed the fall from grace of a current or recent Pope, Cardinal, Bishop, or Priest.

There were questions at that time of the Pope's actions during WW11 concerning his cooperation with the governments of Germany and Italy.

Fifi

Justin
January 16, 2007 - 02:39 pm
Yes, Fifi. That's quite so. In the early fifties Pius Xll, who had been Papal Nuncio to Germany during the rise of Hitler was rightly called to account for failing to intervene on behalf of the Jews during the Holocaust. His silence allowed it to continue. His Curia offered the excuse that the Catholic flock in Germany would be persecuted for his intervention. But the truth of the matter, I suspect, is that many thousands of German Catholics were members of the Nazi party or were members of the SS who were responsible for carrying out the orders of Himmler and other Nazi leaders.

hats
January 16, 2007 - 02:51 pm
I think Pope John Paul, before his death, apologized for the reaction of the church during the Nazi time.

gaj
January 16, 2007 - 03:06 pm
Justin ~ There were many Catholics at the death camps as prisoners. Because of this, I wonder why the pope didn't do anything to prevent this crime from continuing.

Justin
January 16, 2007 - 04:59 pm
Ginny Ann: I was not aware that many Catholics were in the death camps. My impression was that Catholics and Protestants were the dominant perpetrators. They were the bully boys. Just as in previous pogroms some Jews were able, successfully, to pose as Catholics and avoid being transported. Himmler became aware of these recent conversions, at one point,and instituted a policy insisting that one be Catholic unto the 4th or 5th generation to call oneself a Catholic. The same thing happened in Spain in the 16th century. Are these the Catholics you have in mind?

winsum
January 16, 2007 - 05:03 pm
According to Alan Dershuwitz book the Polish people were prosecuted by the Nazis, both Jews and Catholics but they don't[ like to admit that there were any Jews. A weird kind of antisemitism.

3kings
January 16, 2007 - 06:58 pm
Justin There were many Polish Catholics in the German prison camps, probably as many as the number of Polish Jews. In the same way, there were many Polish Jews with my wife and her family in the Siberian labour camps run by Stalin. These facts are not generally known in the west, probably because those prisoners of the Jewish faith want the west to believe that only the Jews suffered in the "Holocaust." == Trevor

robert b. iadeluca
January 16, 2007 - 07:18 pm
The Road to Rome

robert b. iadeluca
January 16, 2007 - 07:23 pm
"The status of the Church was lowest in Italy.

"In 1342 Benedict XII, to weaken the rebellious Louis of Bavaria, confirmed to all the despots of the Lombard cities the authority they had assumed in defiance of Imperial claims. Louis, in revenge, gave the Imperial sanction to the despots who had seized the Papal States.

"Milan openly flouted the popes. When Urban V sent two legates to Milan, bearing bulls of excommunication to the Visconti, Bernabo compelled them to eat the bulls -- parchment, silken cords, and leaden seals.

"Sicily, ever since its 'Vespers.' had remained in open enmity to the popes."

Your comments, please?

Robby

Justin
January 16, 2007 - 08:25 pm
Yes, Trevor, I had forgotten you had told us that Polish Catholics, including your wife and her family were confined in a death camp. Why did that happen? I don't think Hitler intended to wipe out Catholics. I am not certain but I think he had Catholic origins. His list of undesirables included Jews,Magyars,Gypcies, sexual deviants, the physically and mentally limited,and Russian enemies (many of whom were probably Catholics). But they were not arrested because they were Catholics. They were arrested because they were Russian enemies who were incidentally Catholics. Is that the case with the Poles?

Traude S
January 16, 2007 - 08:55 pm
ROBBY, this is a fast leap without much of a transition.
The rebellious Louis of Bavaria was, I presume, Ludwig V of Bavaria, 1281-1347, German king since 1314 and Holy Roman Emperor from 1328.

The resistance in the Lombardy region against the demands (or authority) of the popes is understandable. But why Sicily is mentioned in the same breath, considering its geographic location, is not so clear. Perhaps there is more to come after this quotation.

I feel compelled to add a brief comment about the German concentration camps. It is not widely known in this country that thousands of non-Jewish Germans were imprisoned there, lay people as well as members of the clergy, and not only Catholics, either.

One example was Protestant pastor Martin Niemöller who openly defied Hitler and was an inmate in the Sachsenhausen and in the Dachau camps; he survived.
Anyone who was overheard saying something as simple as : "I don't see how we can possibly win this war ..." was nabbed.

Precisely that happened to a student friend of mine in Heidelberg, whom I knew from a few clandestine meetings, and that is a separate story. He was having lunch one day with his visiting parents at the Hotel Europe. He went to he rest room and was never seen again.

Bubble
January 17, 2007 - 02:34 am
"These facts are not generally known in the west, probably because those prisoners of the Jewish faith want the west to believe that only the Jews suffered in the "Holocaust." " Trevor

"His list of undesirables included ...,Magyars,Gypsies, sexual deviants, physically and mentally limited,and Russian enemies" Justin

Trevor, I would call that a generality without fondation. If "There were many Polish Catholics in the German prison camps, probably as many as the number of Polish Jews", the overhaul number of camp inmates was certainly of Jewish origin. It is well documented that there were many Catholics there too and clergy members as well, mainly those caught helping Jews to escape. We in Israel are well aware of that fact. Maybe it is less known in English speaking countries?

Yes, Justin, many of those indesirables were Catholics, though I am sure there were physically and mentally limited jews as well as brilliant minds who went to their death in the camps. Gypsies and Tziganes lost quite a lot of theirs.

Bernabo really had imagination: forced to eat the bulls!

Mallylee
January 17, 2007 - 03:57 am
3Kings that is noteable. I feel I should mention that the Polish soldiers I knew personally when I was a little girl said that the Russians were more dreaded by Poles than the Germans. This must have been said with passion, or I would not have remembered it.

robert b. iadeluca
January 17, 2007 - 04:30 am
Any comments regarding Post 762?

Robby

BaBi
January 17, 2007 - 07:04 am
I was completely lost, ROBBY, by the quote about the Sicilian vespers. All vespers meant to me was a prayer time in Catholicism. So I went hunting, and Voila!

Sicilian Vespers

Babi

hats
January 17, 2007 - 07:39 am
I thought my memory had played tricks on me. Here is Pope John Paul's apology. Some people might feel this apology may have come years too late.

Pope's Apology

This is an interesting statement from the article.

"For others, no words, however sincere, were sufficient given the extent of crimes in which many Catholics played a role. The Jewish community, in particular, was disturbed when John Paul would apologize on one hand and then promote sainthood for controversial figures like Pope Pius XII, the wartime pope who many Jews believe did too little to stop the Holocaust."

hats
January 17, 2007 - 07:40 am
Babi, thank you for the link.

Justin
January 17, 2007 - 03:54 pm
Barneba's punishment was the original "stuff it" response. I did not realize it all started with "down yours."

The comments on the Holocaust lead me to conclude that I do not know all I should know about that subject. There are some missing parts.We live through things, think we know about them, but later recognize that parts are missing.

My impression is that Jews were the principal target of Hitler. There were others he considered marginal in society and they were targeted for arrest. Among these were homosexuals, the mentally retarded, and gypsies. Others who wound up in the camps did so because they did things against the law, such as helping targeted people to escape and not because they themselves had been part of a group that had been targeted. Homosexuality and mental retardation appears among most other groups and as a result every group may have been represented in the camps in small numbers.

Is that fairly accurate or should I go back to the drawing board?

winsum
January 17, 2007 - 04:50 pm
the intelligentsia was at risk too. they had to watch what they said. . .academics and professionals. . .

Rich7
January 17, 2007 - 06:04 pm
Among them were astrologers, freemasons, some types of protestants, disarmed Italian soldiers, and Jehovah's Witnesses.

Here's the story as told by Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims

Rich

Rich7
January 17, 2007 - 06:19 pm
Bernabo forced the messengers to eat the papal documents they delivered, packaging, and all. Sounds like something out of The Godfather. Come to think of it, there are some who think the occasion of the Sicilian Vespers precipitated the birth of the Mafia!

Rich

Justin
January 17, 2007 - 07:06 pm
Thank you Rich for the Wikepedia dscription of the victims of the Holocaust. Now that I've read it I realize there was little new knowledge to add however, the Serb and Ukase killings really appalled me. Imagine the Nazi's and particular SS units being troubled by the rate of Serb killing committed by the Ukase. Has anyone else found a description of the victims that differs from the one in Rich's post? Trevor: Why don't you read through Rich's post to see if you differ in anyway.

winsum
January 17, 2007 - 07:34 pm
that is the encyclopedia and they ar elooking for more input. what they have is just incredible. lining mental patients up one behind the other so as to do the job with one bullet etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust

robert b. iadeluca
January 17, 2007 - 07:38 pm
"Clement VI engaged an army to recapture the Papal States but it was his successor, Innocent VI, who for a time restored them to obedience.

"Innocent was almost a model pope. After indulging a few relatives with appointments, he determined to stop the current of nepotism and corruption. He put an end to the epicurean splendor and wasteful outlay of the papal court, dismissed the horde of servants that had ministered to Clement VI, scattered the swarm of place seekers, ordered every priest to reside in his benefice, and himself led a life of integrity and modesty.

"He saw that the authority of the Church could be stored only by liberating her from the power of France and could hardly maintain herself without the revenues that had formerly come to her from the Papal States.

"Innocent, a man of peace, decided that these could be reclaimed only by war."

Robby

Fifi le Beau
January 17, 2007 - 08:41 pm
"Innocent, a man of peace, decided that these could be reclaimed only by war."

There are several contradictions in this one sentence.

Innocent

Peace

War

Fifi

Justin
January 18, 2007 - 12:08 am
I agree fifi. The names do not agree with their actions. "Clement"meaning gentle, merciful, kind, is the guy who makes war on innocent folks.

"Innocent" meaning pure, guiltless,harmless, is a guy with skill at making war.

The Popes were just as skilled at propaganda as we are today.

robert b. iadeluca
January 18, 2007 - 04:31 am
"Urban V continued the austerity and reforms of Innocent VI.

"He labored to restore discipline and honesty in the clergy and at the papal court, discountenanced luxury among the cardinals, checked the chicanery of the lawyers and the extortions of the moneylenders, punished simony, and won to his service men of excellence in character and mind.

"He maintained at his own expense a thousand students in the universities, founded a new college at Montpellier and supported many savants.

"To crown his pontificate he resolved to restore the papacy to Rome. The cardinals were horrified at the prospect. Most of them had their roots and affections in France and were hated in Italy. They begged him not to heed the pleas of St. Catherine or the eloquence of Petrarch.

"Urban poinbted out to them the chaotic condition of France -- its king a prisoner in England, its armies shattered, the English conquering the southern provinces and coming ever nearer to Avignon.

"What would a victorious England do to a papacy that had served and financed France?"

Discretion is the better part of valor.

Robby

BaBi
January 18, 2007 - 06:56 am
"..and won to his service men of excellence in character and mind."

Now there is a marvelous testimony to Urban V. When men of excellence in character and mind are drawn to the service of another man, how highly may we regard the man they serve? This is another man, and life, I want to know more about.

Babi

EllieC1113
January 18, 2007 - 11:09 am
I think both Innocent VI and Urban V appear to be men of virtue. I remember story of a nun who was killed in the Holocaust. She is now known as St. Theresa Bendedicta of the Cross. Otherwise known as Edith Stein, born into a Jewish family. She and her sister were both converts, in religious life, living in a Carmelite convent. She had been a student, I think of Husserl, considered one of his "star" pupils. Her doctoral dissertation was called "The Problem of Empathy." I remember stories of how she ministered to others when she was in the concentration camp. She had no problem with empathy. Then there was a priest, now known as St. Maximilian Kolbe, killed in Aushwitz.

bluebird24
January 18, 2007 - 06:29 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Urban_V

his picture is here

gaj
January 18, 2007 - 07:45 pm
As someone raised with the pope living in the Vatican I find it hard to understand how and why the popes moved to France and now how and why they moved to Italy. The Church got so involved with nonspiritual matters that it is refreshing to learn of Innocent VI and Urban V.

Justin
January 18, 2007 - 08:24 pm
Ellie: What do you know of the St. Catherine mentioned in Robby's 780?

3kings
January 19, 2007 - 02:08 am
Justin you will find a lot about her in Google. Make sure to ask for "St. Catherine of Siena". She is often confused with St. Catherine, who was of an earlier age. Wikipedia also has stuff about her. ++ Trevor

robert b. iadeluca
January 19, 2007 - 05:16 am
"On April 30th, 1367 Urban V sailed from Marseille, joyously escorted by Italian galleys.

"On October 16 he entered Rome amid the wild acclaim of the populace, the clergy, and the aristocracy. Italian princes held the bridle of the white mule on which he rode. Petrarch poured out his gratitude to the French Pope who dared to live in Italy.

"It was a desolate though happy Rome -- impoverished by its long separation from the papacy -- half of its churchs deserted and decayed -- St. Paul's in ruins -- St. Peter's threatening at any minute to collapse -- the Lateran palace but recently destroyed by fire -- palaces rivaling the tenements in dilapidation -- swamps where there had been dwellings -- rubbish lying ungathered in the squares and streets.

"Urban gave orders and allotted funds for rebuilding the papal palace. Unable to bear the sight of Rome, he went to live at Montefiascone. But even there his memories of luxurious Avignon and beloved France made him miserable.

"Petrarch heard of his hesitation and urged him to persevere. St. Bridget of Sweden prodicted that he would die soon if he left Italy. The Emperor Charles IV sought to strengthen him -- gave the Impeial saanction to the papal recovery of central Italy -- came humbly to Rome to lead the Pope's horse from Sant' Angelo to St. Peter's -- served him at Mass, and was crowned by him in a ceremony that seemed happily to heal the old strife of Empire and papacy.

"Then, on September 5, 1370, perhaps yielding to his French cardinals, and saying that he wished to make peace between England and France, Urban embarked for Marseille.

"On September 27 he reached Avignon and there, on December 19, he died, clothed in the habit of a Benedictine monk, lying on a miserable couch, and having ordered that all who cared to enter should be admitted, so that all might see how vain and brief is the splendor of the most exalted man."

Robby

Bubble
January 19, 2007 - 06:22 am
"St. Bridget of Sweden prodicted that he would die soon if he left Italy."

St. Bridget of Sweden was right? She read the future?

Éloïse De Pelteau
January 19, 2007 - 09:12 am
"so that all might see how vain and brief is the splendor of the most exalted man." Durant says so much in so few words.

winsum
January 19, 2007 - 04:24 pm
It's about catholicism in the middle ages

Mysteries of the Middle Ages: The Rise of Feminism, Science, and Art from the Cults of Catholic Europe by Thomas Cahill (Hardcover - Oct 24, 2006) Buy new: $32.50 $19.11 Used & new from $18.94 Get it by January 23, 2007, if you order in the next 70 hours and 8 minutes. Other Editions: Audio CD

robert b. iadeluca
January 19, 2007 - 04:34 pm
"Gregory XI had been made a cardinal at eighteen by his genial uncle Clement VI.

"On December 29, 1370 he was ordained a priest and on December 30, aged thirty nine, he was electd pope.

"He was a man of learning, in love with Cicero. Fate made him a man of war and consumed his pontificate in volent revolt.

"Urban V, fearing that a French pope could not yet trust Italians, had named too many Frenchmnen as legates to govern the Papal States. Finding themselves in a hostile environment, these prelates had built fortresses against the people, had imported numerous French aides, had taxed exorbitantly, and had preferred tyranny to tact.

"At Perugia a nephew of the legate pursued a married lady so voraciously that in trying to escape him she fell from a window and was killed. When a deputation demanded punishment for the nephew, the legate replied:--'Why all this fuss? Do you mistake a Frenchman for a eunuch?'

"By a variety of means the legates earned such hatred that in 1375 many of the states rose against them in successive revolutions. St. Catherine made herself the voice of Italy and urged Gregory to remove these 'evil pastors who poison and devastate the garden of the Church.'

"Florence, usually an ally of the papacy, took the lead of the movement and unfurled a red flag bearing in golden letters the word Libertas.

"At the beginning of 1375 sixty four cities had acknowledged the pope as their civic as well as their spiritual head. In 1376 only one remained loyal to him.

"It seemed that all the work of Albornoz was undone and that central italy was again lost to the papacy."

Robby

Traude S
January 19, 2007 - 04:40 pm
See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catherine_of_Siena

EllieC1113
January 19, 2007 - 08:24 pm
Justin, in response to your question, what I know of St. Catherine of Siena has to do with her deep mysticism. And, I guess, also, that she was one of very few women writers of her time whose ideas are still available to us. Apparently at that time, those women who wrote about religious or mystical topics were among the few whose works were read. Maybe also there were few women who wrote about anything during that era. You notice, I'm sure, that virtually all the main characters in all of our narratives are male. I also remember that she is one of the few women "Doctors of the Church," a very exalted distinction. I think Doctor comes from doceo docere, which if my college Latin is still sitting in my head, means to lead??? No, I checked it out--it means to teach. Also, I will add that my favorite writer, Thomas Merton, is a 20th century mystic.

Justin
January 19, 2007 - 10:39 pm
Catherine was apparently a mystic with an interest in politics. Her apparitions must have enhanced her ability to influence men in positions of power. Women, generally, were not well received in political power circles unless they had something else going for them. In Catherine's case the solutions she posed ostensibly came from God, a source the Pope could not ignore. The Legates however, were not so easy to convince.

Catherine's assessment of the problem was remarkable in two ways. First she had to be aware of the political problem created by the Legates to the Papal States and then she had to recognize the significance of the political solution when it came to her. Finally, as a female and a member of the subordinate clergy, she had to figure out a way to be convincing at the highest levels of government.

Awareness of the problem may have been the easiest to grasp. If almost all the states run by Legates revolted in the course of a single year the condition must have been common knowledge. The solutions Catherine posed for the problem were those of a very smart lady and her implementation was worthy of the best of her gender. The other great female implementors were bedroom gals.

Justin
January 19, 2007 - 11:01 pm
Ellie: Thank you. These mystics are sometimes able to acheive great things. Hildegard of Bingen was such person who operated in a prior century. Catherine started seing things at a very young age -six or seven, I think. She must have liked the attention she received and persisted, gaining more and more attention. She ran into some resistance from Dominicans while in the order but prevailed eventually.

I find it interesting that the marks of the stigmata appeared after her death. One hundred and sixty years earlier Francis turned up with the stigmata during his life time. The concept was around. However they were produced, I think they enhanced the impact of her advice even after death.

robert b. iadeluca
January 20, 2007 - 06:51 am
Any comments about Durant's remarks in Post 791?

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
January 20, 2007 - 08:27 am
Ste. Catherine, "She began to write letters to men and women in authority, especially begging for peace between the republics and principalities of Italy and for the return of the papacy from Avignon to Rome. She carried on a long correspondence with Pope Gregory XI, also asking him to reform the clergy and the administration of the Papal States." Traude's link.

There, we have a woman who dared to speak out for 'peace between the republics' of Italy and for 'reform of the clergy'.

Justin I find this statement debasing and spoils my enjoyment of learning more: "The other great female implementors were bedroom gals."

In this court of justice, is there no Lawyer for the Defence? and where is the Jury to decide whether to condemn or acquit the accused?

Thank you Traude for this interesting link about Ste. Catherine, I like her, too bad Durant only skims the surface of the influence women like her had on their time.

winsum
January 20, 2007 - 09:56 am

robert b. iadeluca
January 20, 2007 - 01:20 pm
"Gregory, prodded by the French cardinals, charged the Florentines with being the head of the revolt and ordered them to submit to the papal legates.

"When they refused, he excommunicated them, forbade religious services in their city and declared all Florentines to be outlaws whose goods might be seized and whose persons might be enslaved by any man anywhere.

"The whole structure of Florentine commerce and finance was threatened with collapse. England and France at once laid hands upon the Florentines and their property there. Florence responded by confiscating all Church property in its territory, tearing down the buildings of the Inquisition, closing the ecclesiastical courts, jailing -- in some cases hanging -- obstinate priests, and sending an appeal to the people of Rome to join the revolution and end all temporal power of the Church in Italy. While Rome hesitated, Gregory despatched to its leaders a solemn promise that if the city remained loyal to him, he would return the papacy to Rome.

"The Romans accepted the pledge and kept the peace."

Robby

Fifi le Beau
January 20, 2007 - 02:52 pm
Catherine's body is currently interred in Rome. Her head and right thumb are in Siena. Her foot in Venice.

With all the murders, beheadings, dismemberment, and other horrors man has bestowed on man, it never occurred to me that those considered Saints would be dismembered after death for their 'relic' value.

Relics have been discussed before on this forum, but I must have given them a cursory glance, because after reading the article on relics linked to the St. Catherine of Siena article, I never knew their significance in Catholicism, Judaism, Islam, or Buddhism.

This is of the occult as described by necromancy. The use and abuse of the dead to influence the lives of the living.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relic

Fifi

winsum
January 20, 2007 - 02:59 pm
your post had me laughing out loud -- still smiling. the ridiculous is SO ridiculous. . . Claire

winsum
January 20, 2007 - 03:02 pm
I"m currently well into a mystery by Kathy Reichs based on relics and the nuts who value them. In this case it's orthodox radical Jews in Israel who will kill to return them to the earth. . .to each his/her own. . .Claire

Traude S
January 20, 2007 - 05:36 pm
The Avignon popes were all French, and their fondness for Avignon came naturally. Urban V made the attempt to go to Rome but he did not have the courage of his convictions. He couldn't bring himself to stay in Rome amid the abandoned, neglected churches and uncollected rubbish in the streets. The "memories of luxurious Avignon" proved stronger and he went back.

Throughout their decades-long residency in Avignon, the popes continued to extract - with any and all means at their diposal - financial contributions from the papal states in the Italian communes. The Florentines protested, destroying the inquisition buildings (!), not so the Romans. We'll see how Gregory XI managed things after his return to Rome.

Incidentally, a third woman is recognized as Doctor of the Church in addition to St. Catherine of Siena and St. Teresa of Ávila :
St. Thérèse de Lisieux.

The Shroud of Turin is a relic, I believe. The Lutheran church in which I was raised does not believe in relics. Even so Catholics are not alone in setting stock by them, as evident from FIFI's link.

EllieC1113
January 20, 2007 - 05:59 pm
I remember that in trips to Europe in the last five years, relics were displayed in various churches. I remember possibly seeing a piece of the crown of thorns. Many of the churches had reliquary displays. Often in the display cases, along with the relics were items like an ancient ceremonial oil vessel used to anoint kings at their coronations.

Speaking of the Shroud of Turin, I remember going to a party at my daughter's college when she was an undergraduate. One of the history professors was doing a study of the Shroud of Turin.

Justin
January 21, 2007 - 01:07 am
Eloise: It should not be necessary to identify the ladies I had in mind. A few of those who resorted to bedroom skills as a means of influencing politics are Pauline Borghese, Diane de Poitevin, Lucrezia Borgia, Isabella D'Este, Mde. de Maintenant, Judith of Holoferne fame, Mde de Pompadour, Bathsheba, La Marechale de Balagny,Poppea Salina. Most of these ladies were a credit to their gender and far from disgusting. Most were quite successful in their endeavors.

Mallylee
January 21, 2007 - 02:17 am
I wonder if 'religious' passion for relics is related to many people's veneration of holy sites, such as heroes' graves, or the 'birth place of Jesus'.

It's perhaps a small step from revering an object to suspecting or believing that it has magical power

Mallylee
January 21, 2007 - 02:22 am
I am not going to print Durant's sneering phrase ! Both sexes have on occasion ruled because of their personal charisma. Many women who have come to postions of power have managed to rise above all- pervading social demotion of women in which case personal charisma is of course a necessary attribute

Bubble
January 21, 2007 - 03:05 am
Justin, Mme de Maintenon... I took my Websters and it specify "Marquise de (Françoise d'Aubigné), 1635–1719, second wife of Louis XIV."

Strange how I never knew she actually was married to the king albeit secretly at first.

"orthodox radical Jews in Israel who will kill to return them to the earth" - Huh? Claire?

Mallylee - is veneration of ancestors also part of 'religious' passion?

robert b. iadeluca
January 21, 2007 - 06:31 am
As we discuss "The Road to Rome," any reactions to Durant's words in Posts 791 and 799?

Robby

BaBi
January 21, 2007 - 08:29 am
The influence of a mistress was not to be taken lightly. Many an ambitious man, who wished to come to the attention of a man in power, began by ingratiating himself in the favor of the mistress. Many were women of intelligence, with notable political skills and insight into the character of those around them. Attributes which any powerful lover would appreciate,...and heed.

Robby, I would say Durant's words re. 'bedroom' figures got a strong reaction.

Babi

EllieC1113
January 21, 2007 - 09:37 am
MallyLee, your post got me to think more about relics and holy places. I think on most or all faith paths, there are holy places. Even a local house of worship gives most people a feeling of veneration. Or many works of art about faith-related ideas or people. They will help people to stir up a sense of holiness or awe. Lourdes is supposed to be the locus of many miracles. There was a recent news report that the Catholic Church is closing down a bunch of churches in New York. What will they do with the structures? I think one old church in NY became a disco many years ago.

BaBi, your post stirred up a memory of watching Jimmy and Rosalynn Carter yesterday on C-Span. I wonder how old he is. They both look great! He was responding to some tough questions. There was a relativly easy question from a little kid: "Why did World War II start?" Carter responded, as usual, brilliantly and gave a good account of Hitler and the history of the period. He used a few vocabulary words that no 8-year-old could possibly decipher, however. When Rosalynn spoke, you could see that the two of them often must have had engrossing discussions with one another. So, often the spouse (or reasonable facsimile thereof) can be very influential in the halls of power.

winsum
January 21, 2007 - 09:48 am
there evidently is a group of "black hats" that raises havoc at digs throwing stones. They don't care how badly they injure or even kill in their desire to stop the dig. it's new to me too.

Claire

Traude S
January 21, 2007 - 10:02 am
Re # 791.
Here Durant begins with Gregory XI, elected pope at age 39, mentions his uncle, Clement VI,
and in the next breath talks about Urban V, his precedessor.
Re # 799.
Durant does not state here specifically whether Gregory XI's forceful actions against the Florentines took place while he was still in Avignon or after his return to Rome.

Unless I've missed something, the official return to Rome of Pope Gregory XI has not been described in detail yet.

MALLYLEE, like you I wondered. Don't we have a propensity to hold on, prize, treasure and (sometimes) revere all kinds of keepsakes; or something that had belonged to someone famous we may have never met; to cling to a direct or indirect association with someone famous (George Washington slept here, e.g.)?

Of course the veneration of an object believed sacred is infinitely stronger, especially when it is sanctioned and encouraged by the church.

robert b. iadeluca
January 21, 2007 - 10:28 am
"Meanwhile the Pope had sent to Italy a force of 'wild Breton mercenaries' under the command of 'the fierce Cardinal Legate Robert of Geneva.'

"Robert waged the war with incredible barbarity. Having taken Cesena with the promise of an amnesty, he put every man, woman, and child there to the sword. John Hawkwood, leading his mercenaries in the service of the Church, slew 4000 in Faenza on suspicion that the town intended to join the revolt.

"St. Catherine of Siena was shocked by these brutalities, by the mutual confiscations, by the cessation of religious services in so much of Italy.

"Florence invited her to be one of its envoys to Gregory. She went and took the occasion to condemn the morals of Avignon. She was so outspoken that many called for her arrest but Gregory protected her.

"The mission had no immediate result. But when word reached him that unless he came soon Rome would join the revolt, Gregory -- perhaps moved also by Catherine's pleas -- set out from Marseille and reached Rome on January 17, 1377.

"He was not unanimously welcomed. The appeal of Florence had stirred old republican memories in the degenerate city and Gregory was warned that his life was unsafe in the ancient capital of Christendom.

"In May he retired to Anagni."

A Cardinal, a man of peace, wages a war with incredible barbarity and a city with republican memories is described as "degenerate."

Robby

Mallylee
January 21, 2007 - 01:34 pm
Bubble the Mende people of Sierra Leone include veneration of ancestors as part of their traditional religion.(Kenneth Little) I believe other people do so too.

Mallylee
January 21, 2007 - 01:42 pm
EllieC holy places do have ambiences that stimulate feelingsd of the numinous. Dim cathedrals with coloured light entering from on high. Oases with trees in a sand desert. A huge cave . But these are not portable, so relics come in handy

Traude I had that thought too, and I dont know what to make of it. Because I do believe that too much nostalgia is bad for me. And yet nostalgia for past times is one of the justifications for studying history.Comme ci, comme ca

Justin
January 21, 2007 - 03:46 pm
Numinous devices are numerous in Catholicism. A long history of involvement with large illiterate segments of the world's population has produced a great variety of holy forms to aid in reaching the laity. Saints, body parts of the saints, clothes and accoutrements, instruments of death, and symbols of the saint all carry a message to an illiterate laity. Today, literacy has increased substantially but veneration of the old forms persists.

Justin
January 21, 2007 - 03:58 pm
Cardinals are not "men of peace." That is clothing the wolf with sheep skin. These fellows were Papal Legates ie they were petty rulers sent by the Vatican to control unruly cities that were on the verge of revolt against the Papacy. They were field generals ordered to quell specific areas of the Vatican States. We have a similar problem today in Irag.

gaj
January 21, 2007 - 06:20 pm
I find Robert of Geneva to be a horrid man, but he was a product of his time, I guess.
Robert of Geneva


Catherine of Siena is a very interesting personage. I have an interest in 'mystics', but hadn't considered their involvement in the secular/religious events of their times.
Catherine of Siena
The second paragraph gives some perspective on the last quote from Durant.

It is very hard for me to understand how a Pope or Cardinal could order the death of people who disagreed with them. Our present pope, Benedict XVI and before him, Blessed John XXIII,Paul VI, John Paul I,John Paul II, are/were men of peace. Mankind is still fighting over who has the correct, main, direct line from God. It seems to me that some of the worst atrocities have been done in the name of God.

Justin
January 21, 2007 - 07:03 pm
Indeed, Ginny Ann. Your cardinal and all the Popes who put people in narrow cells and cages in Castel Sant'Angelo were not very nice. They were lovely fellows these Popes and cardinals. Pious X11 also had a few problems. He let others do the dirty work for him. Now we blame him just for keeping his mouth shut.

It's too bad John 23 did not live longer. He was on the track everyone thinks a Pope is on.

gaj
January 21, 2007 - 07:10 pm
I didn't mention Pious Xll because of the questions concerning his activities or lack of during WWll.

Just because a man was voted Pope by the Cardinals of the church, it didn't make them good men. As a Catholic, I find this a hard truth. But truth -none-the-less.

Justin
January 21, 2007 - 07:45 pm
It is a sign of mature adulthood when one can look at the evils of the human side of religious organization while at the same time recognizing the validity of one's beliefs. No thing as large as Catholicism can be all good. It is a human activity and therefore prone to human vices. The problem we have is separating the two. When are people of the church being honest and truthful and when are they saying things to feather their own nest or the nest of the Church itself?.

Mallylee
January 22, 2007 - 02:08 am
Justin#822 that is true. How can the rank and file protect themselves and their institution?

Some institutions are better than others, for instance democracy, so the more democracy in church politics the better?

winsum
January 22, 2007 - 02:29 am
the more democracy in democracy the better. It's not an absolute. It varies as to degree. I imagine most institutions do that.

robert b. iadeluca
January 22, 2007 - 06:05 am
"And now, as if at last yielding to Catherine, Gregory turned from war to diplomacy.

"His agents encouraged the populace of the cities who longed for peace with the Church to overthrow their rebel governments and to all towns that returned to his allegiance he promised self government under a papal vicar of their own choice.

"City after city accepted these terms. In 1377 Florence agreed with Gregory to let Bernabo Visconti arbitrate their dispute. Bernabo, having persuaded the Pope to give him half of any penalty he might lay upon Florence, bade the city pay an indemnity of 800,000 florins ($20,000,000) to the Holy See.

"Deserted by her allies, Florence angrily submitted but Pope Urban VI reduced the penalty to 250,000 florins.

"Gregory had not lived to see his victory. On November 7, 1377 he returned to Rome. He had been an invalid even in Avignon and had not borne well his winter in central Italy. He felt the approach of death and feared that the conflict between France and Italy for possession of the papacy would tear the Church to pieces. On March 19, 1378 he made arrangements for the speedy election of his successor.

"Eight days later he died, longing for le beau pays de France."

Robby

Mallylee
January 22, 2007 - 07:05 am
winsum, exactly

BaBi
January 22, 2007 - 08:42 am
More evidence of Gregory's wisdom there. It was not only wise and sensible of him to reduce that outrageous indemnity on Florence, I suspect it was also a well-deserved slap-down to Visconti.

Then, knowing he was dying and how unstable the new alliances were, he made sure everything was in order for the swift election of a new Pope on his death. Succession to rule, whether of popes or kings, or any other powerful structure, needs to be firmly established in advance. An open seat invites vicious struggles for power.

Babi

winsum
January 22, 2007 - 12:58 pm
the Renaissance in Florence was about the arts and he is talking about POPES. Popes had been around for a long time without changing to radically. This was a time of REBIRTH for the arts. When does Durant get to that. He's so disorganized. It's as if this were only a personal exploration and he is more interested in other things. He was a socialist so politics mattered and raised Catholic so religion mattered but. . . somewhat challenged when it came to CULTURE.. . .claire

PS I've been very patient and I've looked him up and understand where he is coming from but what about our leader???We have been encouraged to discuss anything having to do with the period. I got very tired of Petrach. What about architecture, art in the homes and on the tombs of the nobles that you mention so briefly and only as having political influence. big breath . .Claire

Bubble
January 22, 2007 - 01:29 pm
I wonder, surely it is not the pope who chooses his successor? The way to do it has so strict rules and should be done in a closed forum away from media and the eyes of the world. Gregory in his wisdom probably talked to all his bishops and prepared the way.

Justin
January 22, 2007 - 04:56 pm
Art was no more significant in the daily life of Florentines than it is in the daily life of Americans. It was after the fact that we looked back and realized some interesting things were happening in art during the Renaissance. Much more significant to Florentines was the conflict between Ghibelline and Guelph, between Sienese and themselves, between Pope, Rome, the French, and themselves. Why is this is so? It is the case because these constant wars restricted trade, and seriously affected a breadwinner's ability to put food on the table for his family. Safety, security, food and shelter come first then artists are able to put the gun down and pick up the brush. Art flourished in Florence because the churches, trade unions, and bankers were patrons but that patronage was a side line.

winsum
January 22, 2007 - 05:37 pm
but art is spoken of as a REBIRTH. and indeed it was a sudden change which is the nature of the concept of renaissance.

robert b. iadeluca
January 22, 2007 - 06:23 pm
Claire:-In answer to your question as to "where is our leader" and your comment that Durant is "disorganized." The past five years during which we have been discussing how Civilization progresses shows him to be very organized. He very carefully follows chronologically what is happening and I, in turn, follow carefully paragraph by paragraph and page by page and chapter by chapter. In the process of doing this, Durant does not jump from this year to that year so that he can concentrate solely on art. He tells us what people are doing as each year and decade passes. As Justin says: "Art was no more significant in the daily life of Florentines than it is in the daily life of Americans."

I realize, Claire, that you have a specific interest in art and I respect you for that but Durant is telling us the "Story" of mankind's progress, sometimes art taking the forefront, sometimes religion being in the fore, and other times other topics such as business, politics, and morals being of interest to the peoples of that time.

I can only repeat what Durant constantly reminds us in the Heading above:--"Four elements constitute Civilization -- economic provision, political organization, moral traditions, and the pursuit of knowledge and the arts."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
January 22, 2007 - 06:25 pm
The Christian Life

robert b. iadeluca
January 22, 2007 - 06:35 pm
"Deferring to a later chapter a consideration of the faith of the people and the morals of the clergy, let us note two contrasting features of Christian life in fourteenth century Italy -- the Inquisition and the saints.

"Fairness requires us to remember that the great majority of Christians then believed that the Church had been instituted, and that her basic doctrines had been laid down, by the Son of God. Hence -- whatever might be the faults of her human personnel -- any active movement to overthrow her was rebellion against divine authority as well as treason against the secular state of which the Church was the upholding moral arm.

"Only with this thought in mind can we understand the ferocity with which Church and laity joined in suppressing the heresy preached by Dolcino of Novara and his comely sister Margherita."

Again Durant reminds us and we remind each other not to look at what was happening in the 14th century through 21st century eyes.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
January 22, 2007 - 06:40 pm
Does THIS ARTICLE relate to our current discussion?

Robby

Evelyn133
January 22, 2007 - 07:38 pm
I loved that article, Robby.

Reminds me of the time we went stayed in a cabin with my newly married son who is an avid fisherman.

He woke everyone up before dawn blow drying his "lucky fishing socks" which he had washed the evening before. They hadn't dried and he didn't want to wear wet socks.

His wife soundly chastised him, and he didn't understand everyone's annoyance.

Evelyn

winsum
January 22, 2007 - 08:16 pm

Justin
January 22, 2007 - 09:20 pm
The effects of magical thinking are undoubtedly delusional but effective in over coming anxieties. I notice that Maria Sharakova, the tennis player,between vollies, turns away from the court,and fusses with the strings of her racket before turning back to receive a new serve. When serving, she always does a little dance, before tossing the ball. These little rituals calm her down, I think, and help her to focus on the next shot.

Prayer or conversations with a deity can be quite effective in convincing one to have confidence in one's own ability. When boxers cross themselves in blessing they are stoking themselves up for the coming event. I see these things as magical thinking.

Mallylee
January 23, 2007 - 01:13 am
#838 However, there may be an important difference between private or public rituals,such as prayers or ceremonies, on the one hand, and magical thinking , on the other.

The difference probably lies in whether or not there is insight into the suspension of disbelief involved in prayer and ceremonies. This voluntary suspension of disbelief operates in all art forms, not only in religious type activities.

Whenever the insight has been absent, and the subjects have believed that there is a causal link between the art form(including 'religious activity' too) and some specific effect, magical thiking is present.

I would like to see religions in civilised societies freed from magical thinking

Bubble
January 23, 2007 - 01:43 am
I think all, consciously or not, possesses a dose of superstition/magical thinking in their personality.

That article made me see that I too look for "signs" at times even if I don't believe in them and would not base any decision on that. It just makes me feel better after choosing a path if there is a "sign". It's crazy... (I am crazy? )

robert b. iadeluca
January 23, 2007 - 04:03 am
Durant continues --

"Like Joachim of Flora, Dolcino divided history into periods of which the third, from Pope Sylvester I (314-35) to 1280, saw the gradual corruption of the Church through worldly wealth.

"Since Sylvester (said Dolcino) all the popes except Celestine V had been unfaithful to Christ. Benedict, Francis, and Dominic had nobly tried to win the Church back from Mammon to God but had failed. The papacy had now, under Boniface VIII and Clement V, become the harlot of the Apocalypse.

"Dolcino made himself the head of a new fraternity, the 'Apostolic Brethren of Parma,' who rejected the authority of the popes and inherited a medley of doctrines from the Patarines, the Waldenses, and the Spiritual Franciscans. They professed absolute chastity but each man among them lived with a woman whom he called his sister.

"Clement V ordered the Inquisition to examine them. They refused to appear before the tribunal. Instead they armed themselves and took up positions at the foot of the Piedmontese Alps. The inquisitors led an army against them. Bloody battles were fought. The Brethren retreated into mountain passes where they were blockaded and starved. They ate rats, dogs, hares, grass. At last their mountain stronghold was stormed. A thousand fell fighting, thousands were burned to death.

"When Margherita was led to the stakes she was still so beautiful, despite emaciation, that men of rank offered her marriage if she would abjure her heresies. She refused and was slowly consumed.

"Dolcino and an associate, Longino, were reserved for special treatment. They were mounted on a cart and were paraded through Vercelli. During this procession their flesh was torn from them bit by bit with hot pincers, their limbs and genitals were wrenched from their bodies.

"Finally they were allowed to die."

Is anyone here complaining about the age in which we live?

Robby

BaBi
January 23, 2007 - 06:43 am
I also appreciated the article, ROBBY. I've saved it for reference in another discussion where I think it might be useful.

I understand the premise of the Inquisition in attempting to preserve what was perceived as the "Holy" Church. What I cannot understand is the illogic of the proceeding. If the poor soul dies under investigation, they were innocent! If they survive, they were guilty; burn them!

The extreme cruelty was also beyond understanding, but that at least was not confined to the Inquisition. What we see as extreme cruelty was, as I understand, common in the wars of that time. And the defeated could expect more of the same from the victors.

Babi

Fifi le Beau
January 23, 2007 - 12:59 pm
The Popes had set themselves up as a pillar of virtue and infallibility through the church.

The people see what the Pope does through his action and lifestyle, and what they see is the opposite of what they are told the Pope professes to be.

Without a legal method to remove the Pope, the people can only speak out against such despotism. The Pope like the King will not allow any dissent which could spread and threaten his power to rule.

This event is only a small blip in the history of the church and its dealing with dissenters. The killings will continue through the schism and long after that break.

The church only stopped the killing when it could no longer raise armies or get kings and world leaders to back their vendettas. It did not matter to the many Popes that they didn't live up to their end of the bargain, what mattered was the power and wealth and a lifestyle to which they became accustomed.

The wheelers and dealers in Italy wanted the Pope back in Rome, not as much for his infallibility but for his ability to raise funds and his accumulation of great wealth. That wealth could help revive a Rome that had fallen on hard times, and at the same time fill their pockets as Bernabo did in Florence.

These same wealthy families, much of it accumulated through the church, still have influence in Rome. Their privileges were curtailed somewhat by the banking scandals of the Sixties, but they are back with the new Pope and people such as Princess Alessandra Borghese have private dinners with the Pope and gives concerts and attends conferences held by the church hierarchy.

Princess Alessandra Borghese is a divorced mother of two, whose family members include Pope Paul V and Catherine of Siena.

The connivers and schemers are the survivors within the court of the Catholic church. Most of the dissenters were burned at the stake or worse.

The Church could never manage to kill them all, else I would not be typing these words. My own ancestors escaped from France a few steps ahead of the Kings men at the behest of the Pope. Other family members were not so lucky and died horrible deaths during those perilous times.

Fifi

mabel1015j
January 23, 2007 - 02:35 pm
I start every class each semester saying to the class "you live in the best of times." Someone almost always disagrees w/ me and so starts our discussion of history. The most popular answer of "what time was better?" is the 1950's. They have a very idealized perception of that time, so i start asking "best for whom? Blacks? Women? Poor people? People w/ disabilities? People that McCarthy tho't were a little pink?" etc. etc. It's often quite a lively discussion as they suggest other times........and then we get on w/ the content of the course, to look at the REAL history, not their perceptions of history.......jean

bluebird24
January 23, 2007 - 05:55 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Maria_del_Fiore

you can see angels and a horse statue! churches too:) I like them

gaj
January 23, 2007 - 08:02 pm
Jean ~ Where do you teach? I would love to audit the class. One of the main things I have learned is to try NOT to judge history by the present.

Traude S
January 23, 2007 - 08:26 pm
In addition to Joachim di Flora, ca. 1135-1201, and
Fra Dolcino di Novara, ca. 1260-1307, there were other would be 'reformers' over the centuries who were persecuted by the church as heretics, the Waldenses, and others.

But why does Durant mention them now ? Neither Dolcino nor Joachim are Renaissance men, strictly speaking.

Justin
January 23, 2007 - 10:56 pm
Yes, Traude. Dolcino and his sister are barely 1Q Trecento. But then so is Giotto in the same period.Dolcino is an early demonstration of the ferocity of the Popes in the Renaissance. Their ferocity grows with their indulgence. More and more is Sant' Angelo's torture chamber applied as the Renaissance progresses and each Pope is worse, if that's possible, than the predecessor.

Mallylee
January 24, 2007 - 02:16 am
The fairy tale as recorded by the brothers Grimm, and which is probably based on popular folk memories, tells of how the fisherman's wife, on having a stroke of luck with a magic fish, is able to chose what she wants . She begins with wealth, then she wants to be the king. After being the king becomes boring, she asks the fish to make her pope. She finishes by asking for the moon and the magic fish gets tired of her and sends her back to her original poverty.

What strikes me as odd, is that the pope position is revealed to be popularly seen as part of a hierarchy of worldly power.

robert b. iadeluca
January 24, 2007 - 04:44 am
"It is pleasant to turn from such barbarism to the continuing efficacy of Christianity in inspiring men and women to saintliness.

"The same century that saw the tribulations and corruptions of Avignon produced missionaries like Giovanni da Monte Corvino and Oderic of Pordenone who tried to convert the Hindu and Chinese. But the Chinese, says a Franciscan chronicler, clung to the 'error that any man could be saved in his own sect.'

"Unwittingly these missionaries contributed less to religion than to the science of geography.

"Sr. Catherine of Siena was born, lived, and died in a modest room still shown to visitors.

"From that foot of earth she helped to move the papacy, and to revive in the people of Italy a piety tht has survived Rinascita and Risorgimento alike. At fifteen she joined the Order of Penance of St. Dominic. This was a 'tertiary' organization, composed not of monks or nuns, but of men and women living a secular life, yet dedicating themselves as much as possible to works of religion and charity.

"Catherine dwelt with her parents but she made her room almost an anchoritic cell, lost herself in prayer and mystical contemplation, and hardly left her home except to go to church. Her parens were disturbed by her preocdupation with religion and feared for her health. They laid upon her the heaviest drudgery of the household which she performed without complaint. She said:-'I make a little corner apart in my heart for Jesus' and maintained a childlike seenity.

"All the job, doubt, and ecstasy that other girls might derive from 'profane' love Catherine sought and found in devotion to Christ. In the growing intensity of these solitary meditations she thought and spoke of Christ as her heavenly lover, she exchanged hearts with Him, saw herself in vision, married to Him. And like St. Francis she thoyght so long about the five wounds of the Crucified that it seemed to her that she felt them in her own hands and feet and side.

"All temptations of the flesh she rejected as the wiles of Statan to withdraw her from her one engrossing love."

Your comments, please?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
January 24, 2007 - 04:55 am
Those of us here who participated in Durant's third volume, "Caesar and Christ," may find THIS ARTICLE of interest.

Robby

BaBi
January 24, 2007 - 07:09 am
I was intrigued to find, among the statues ornamenting the basilica of "Santa Maria del Fiore" an equestrian statue of John Hawkwood. This was the English mercenary who served the Pope in putting down rebellion, harshly. I suppose this was one of the papal 'rewards' for service, tho' the man hardly appears a hero to our eyes, much less a figure for the adornment of a church.

A saintly figure I much admire from this period is Juliana of Norwich. Though she was a recluse, people were allowed to come to her tiny cell at certain times, where they could seek her prayers and advice. More about her here: JULIANA

Babi

Scrawler
January 24, 2007 - 11:53 am
"...Her parents were disturbed by her preocupation with religion and feared for her health..."

Do you suppose if these same parents had lived in the Middle Ages they would have felt the same way? I can't help wonder what the parents thought of the Church. Did they approve of what the Pope was doing or was it only Catherine's devotion to Christ that disturbed them.

Jean, I found it interesting what you said about your students thinking the 1950s was the best time of history. I was just coming of age during that time and for me it was by far the worst time of my life; generally because I found no one would answer my many questions. Perhaps it wasn't so much that they didn't want to answer the questions as it was that they didn't know how.

Maybe that's how Catherine's parents felt as well. It's so hard to understand "teenagers" whatever period of history they might have lived in.

Justin
January 24, 2007 - 05:24 pm
The Franciscan chronicler who, in commenting upon the response of the Chinese to Christian missionaries said, " they clung to the error that any man could be saved in his own sect."

It is not the Chinese who are in error but the Christians. The error is the central error of Christianity. It is the error of exclusivity. It is the dogma that says, "We are right and you are wrong."

That core idea has caused the painful death of thousands upon thousands of innocent people who thought there were other ways to achieve salvation. The people who were martyred for the Christian cause are few indeed when compared with those whom Christianity tortured to death to protect the idea that salvation through other sects is not possible.

Justin
January 24, 2007 - 05:45 pm
One may well wonder the difference between "Rinacita and Risorgimento." "The piety produced in Italy by Catherine lasted well beyond both Rinacita and Risorgimento." Both terms mean rebirth and are synonomous with Renaissance. In Italian " Risorgimento" refers to a period in nineteenth century Italy when unification under Garibaldi was established. Rinacita is equivalent to Renaissance. Is that not the case, Traude?

Traude S
January 24, 2007 - 07:18 pm
JUSTIN, you are right. Rinascita amd Rinascimento are synonymous, both derived from the verb nàscere = to be born.
As you said, the Risorgimento was a political movement. The adventurous, widely traveled Giuseppe Garibaldi (1807-1882) began the rebellion that led to the unification of Italy. He was born in Nice/Nizza.

Another leader of that time was Camillo Benso, Count Cavour (1810-1861), who forged the Kingdom of Italy with King Vittorio Emmanuele II as head (1820-1878). A fascinating period in Italian history. Streets are named after Garibaldi, Cavour and Vittorio Emmanuele in every city and large town in Italy.

Giovanni da Montecorvino and Oderic of Perdanone were good men and probably good missionaries as well, though obviously with a much smaller sphere of influence compared to the popes.

I believe the College of Cardinals is charged with electing a new pope. The cardinals still go in seclusion to do so and the deliberations can take days. Once the decision is made, white smoke is released from a special chimney as a sign for the faithfully waiting crowd before St. Peter's Cathedral.

The present pope, the former Cardinal Ratzinger, was elected more quickly than had been anticipated.
The predecessor of John Paul II, John Paul I, was in office only for one month, from August to September, 1978. There were rumors that he had been killed. At least one book asserted it. Nnthing ever came to light.

gaj
January 24, 2007 - 07:50 pm
Maybe Cathrine's parents were concerned that she wasn't interested in boys. Maybe they worried about her mental stability. Maybe the fact she didn't want to become a nun, but was so spiritual it confused them. How literate were they? Julian of Norwich dicicated her writings to a scribe.

Justin
January 25, 2007 - 12:37 am
I was sitting in a ristorante on the Nomentana when the white smoke appeared for John Paul 1. and later that month I, briefly, caught sight of him in St. Peters. At least, I thought it was he, surrounded by a number of monsignor types in purple and hurrying past the baldachino toward the San Pietro dig. Who knows? It could have been he.

Traude S
January 25, 2007 - 06:46 am
gaj ,
St. Catherine of Siena consecrated her virginity to Christ at age seven despite the opposition of her family. She received no formal education.

Her father was a cloth dyer. Her mother had twenty-five children. Catherine was the 23rd; her twin sister, the 24th child, died at birth.

At eighteen Catherine took the habit of a Dominican tertiary (lay person). As tertiary she lived at home (rather than in a convent) and practiced there her acts of mortification. She is said to have fasted for long periods of time when she subsisted on only the Blessed Sacrament.

Bubble
January 25, 2007 - 07:31 am
"Imagine a world in which generations of human beings come to believe that certain films were made by God or that specific software was coded by him. Imagine a future in which millions of our descendants murder each other over rival interpretations of Star Wars or Windows 98. Could anything -- anything -- be more ridiculous? And yet, this would be no more ridiculous than the world we are living in. -Sam Harris, author (1967- )"

Here is a quote I received today. It seemed appropriate.

EllieC1113
January 25, 2007 - 11:06 am
I am meditating on a book called "The Practice of the Presence of God," by Brother Lawrence, a Carmelite of the 17th century. I really liked the book, which I have tried to apply in my daily activities. But I came upon a chapter in which the masochistic self-hatred of the man was very painful to read. I think the idea of mortification, if it has a masochistic element, is bad. Fasting to the point of eating only the Blessed Sacrament sounds like the self-hatred of anorexia. If my daughter indulged in anorexia and self-mortification, I would be horrified. Incidentally, when she uses the exercise facilities at UVA, where she is a graduate student, she notices and mentions the undergrads there, many of whom are clearly anorexic.

I really think many of these maladaptive practices emerged because people were trying to manage their irrational or "animal" impulses. We have much better techniques for accomplishing these goals now, but many people still resort to self-hatred and self-starvation, out of a lack of knowledge.

Justin
January 25, 2007 - 03:54 pm
Let's see if we can make some sense of the state of mind of a seven year old girl living in the warm Italian sun in the 1300's in a family with twenty-three children and a dyer husband. She has seen her mother worn and haggard from breeding and changing diapers. She has probably seen her oldest sisters marrying and doing exactly as their mother did. That kind of life can not have been very pretty to a seven year old girl. It is not difficult to understand how she might wish to avoid such a life. So she chose the only way out and insisted upon it as she grew older when the pressure to marry and start her own agony was upon her. She joins a tertiary order and mortifies the flesh in punishment for neglecting her duty- the duty of all women of her culture- to have children. Papa needed hands at the dyeing tubs.

Traude S
January 25, 2007 - 04:20 pm
JUSTIN,

robert b. iadeluca
January 25, 2007 - 04:42 pm
"After three years of almost solitary piety, Catherine felt that she could safely venture into the life of the city.

"As she had devoted her womanhood to Christ, so she devoted her maternal tenderness to the sick and needy of Siena. She stayed to the last moment with the victims of plague and stood in spiritual consolation beside condemned criminals until the hour of their execution.

"When her parents died and left her a modest patrimony, she distribued it among the poor. Though she was disfigured by small pox, her face was a blessing to all who saw her. Young men at her word abandoned their wonted blaspehmies and older men heard with melting skepticism her simple and trusting philosopby.

"All the evils of human life, she thought, were the result of human wickedness but all the sins of mankind would be swallowed up and lost in the ocean of God's love. And all the ills of the world would be cured if men could be persuaded to practice Christian love.

"Many believed her. Montepulciano sent for her to come and reconcile its feuding families. Pisa and Lucca sought her counsel. Florence invited her to join an embassy to Avignon.

"Gradually she was drawn into the world."

The plot thickens. Who will win -- entire cities or one small woman?

Robby

bluebird24
January 25, 2007 - 06:13 pm
http://www.dace.co.uk/st_catherine.htm

here is a picture:)

Fifi le Beau
January 25, 2007 - 08:44 pm
Many believed her.

In order to get an edge on the competition, people will try anything. Some probably hoped that a young emancipated girl could sway over the other side. One never knows what influences others, and it couldn't hurt to try.

There were two stories in this part of the country about an appearance of Christ and Mother Teresa.

The first one was on a refrigerator that sat on this mans front porch. The local news showed the rust colored outline of a seeming figure on the front of the refrigerator. People came from miles around to have a look. Many believed it was Christ.

The second was in a bagel or donut shop in Nashville that had a likeness of Mother Teresa baked into the twisted dough. I think it sold on e-bay.

Catherine had as much influence as Mother Teresa of the bagel at stopping what she called sin.

Fifi

gaj
January 25, 2007 - 09:22 pm
What I find interesting, is that a young woman generated such attention. What drew them to her? Who spread the word about her?

Justin
January 26, 2007 - 12:56 am
She dreams of marriage to Jesus. That's not unusual in a teenage girl. If the guys were not falling all over her because she had a small pox marred face and a strange, distracted, manner then she would find love in someone who could not reject her. That's quite natural, I think. Young girls today dream of male singers and guitar players with hips that move.Such images were not available to Catherine. Durant makes it all sound so religious when he talks about three years of pious isolation and moving safely out into the world.

Catherine talks about the benefits of Christian love at a time when it is clear to many that the meaning of Christian love can be found in the evils of the Christian community. The Pope talks of Christian love and means one thing while Catherine talks of Christian love and means quite another.

robert b. iadeluca
January 26, 2007 - 05:04 am
"The good and the evil, the beautiful and the horrible, mingled in the flux and chaos of the Christian life. The simple folk of Italy remained contentedly medieval while the middle and upper classes, half drunk with the long-cellared wine of classic culture, moved forward with a noble ardor to create the Renaissance, and modern man."

Please note the changes in the GREEN quotes in the Heading.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
January 26, 2007 - 05:19 am
The Florentine Renaissance

1378-1534

robert b. iadeluca
January 26, 2007 - 05:24 am
The Rise of the Medici

1378-1464

robert b. iadeluca
January 26, 2007 - 05:26 am
The Setting

robert b. iadeluca
January 26, 2007 - 05:35 am
"The Italians called this coming of age la Rinascita, Rebirth, because to them it seemed a triumphant resurrection of the classic spirit after a barbarous interruption of a thousand years.

"The classic world, the Italians felt, had died in the German and Hun invasions of the third, fourth, and fifth centuries. The heavy hand of the Goth had crushed the fading but still fair flower of Roman art and life. 'Gothic' art had repeated the invasion with an architecture precariously unstable and decoratively bizarre, and a sculpture coarse, crude, and gloomy with dour prophets and emaciated saints.

"Now, by the grace of time, those bearded Goths and those 'long-beard' Lombards had been absorbed into the dominant Italian blood. By the grace of Vitruvius and the instructive ruins of the Roman Forum the classic column and architrave would again build shrines and palaces of sober dignity. By the grace of Petrarch and a hundred Italian scholars the rediscovered classics would restore the literature of Italy to the pure idiom and precision of Cicero's prose, and the mellow music of Virgil's verse.

"The sunshine of the Italian spirit would break through the northern mists. Men and women would escape from the prison of medieval fear. They would worship beauty in all its forms and fill the air with the joy of resurrection.

"Italy would be young again."

Robby

Bubble
January 26, 2007 - 08:05 am
Viva Italia! Its people are still the most alive in Europe, the most enthusiastic about beauty and amore.

BaBi
January 26, 2007 - 01:50 pm
Durant is downright lyrical in that last quote. One expects a crescendo of operatic music in accompaniment. I would expect anyone of Italian blood to be stirred by it, and it really should be carved on some Italian monument, don't you think?

Babi

EllieC1113
January 26, 2007 - 01:53 pm
I enjoyed the prior passage about St. Catherine. What strength emerged as a result of her spiritual journey. She nursed the sick, including victims of the plague. She offered comfort to condemned criminals at the hour of their death. And she became a trusted resource to groups of feuding individuals. It is apparent that she showed real wisdom and understanding of the human heart, which was respected by many in power. I like the idea of the love of God entering into difficult situations, in an attempt to set things right. She became a woman with charismatic leadership qualities.

Justin
January 26, 2007 - 03:29 pm
Durant says,"The simple folk remained contentedly Medieval while the middle and upper classes of Italy moved forward to create the Renaissance." We know that not all segments of a population are able to move forward at once. Advancing through the various stages of civilization depends on the amount of leisure time one has available. This is particularly so for movement into the final stage of cultural development. One must be free of food and shelter concerns and fear of constant violent attack to enter upon a period of Rinacita. While the Italian peasant had little or no time for leisure activity the middle and upper classes were freed by wealth to pursue new avenues of interest.

When Durant says, "The simple folk remained Medieval," he means they continued to follow the superstitious ways of that period and that they did not participate in the new ideas of the Rinacita, principally, in the idea that man can develop on his own without the guidance of the Church.

EllieC1113
January 26, 2007 - 05:58 pm
Justin,

In reaction to what you just wrote, do you think that the Renaissance marked, perhaps, the birth of secular humanism?

3kings
January 26, 2007 - 07:02 pm
By the grace of Petrarch and a hundred Italian scholars the rediscovered classics would restore the literature of Italy to the pure idiom and precision of Cicero's prose, and the mellow music of Virgil's verse.

It seems strange that it took 1000 years for the above classic literature to be "rediscovered", as Durant puts it. Think in those 1000 years, was there no one who recognised those classics for what they were?

Those volumes must have been cared for by some persons in the Church, who presumably recognised their worth. Why for a thousand years did they care for them, but no one made use of them?

Justin suggests that no one had sufficient wealth and therefor leisure to examine them. But the fact that the works were preserved shows that their worth was recognised. It was an age when other things of "no use" were just abandoned or destroyed.

So I'm puzzled why it took so long for these works to be utilized.++ Trevor

EllieC1113
January 26, 2007 - 08:20 pm
Trevor,

I would bet that they were read by the scholarly monks or other church functionaries who preserved them. I know that St. Thomas Aquinas must have read them. I believe he tried to take classical Greek philosophical ideas and apply them to theology. And so did St. Augustine, way before St. Thomas. And, as an example, these highly influential theologians must have had an impact on the thinking of many of the people, lay and religious, with whom they spoke. Or maybe they all took a vow of silence, so nobody heard what they were thinking. Or maybe Durant believes that intellectual history and church history are two separate, unequal entities, with intellectual history clearly superior to the latter.

I just glanced at some internet info on St. Thomas, which stated that his writings were Aristotelian, Platonic and Socratic. Some classical Greek influence clearly here.

gaj
January 26, 2007 - 10:10 pm
Thomas Cahill's book How the Irish Saved Civilization sheds some light on where some of the works were preserved. I read it some time ago. He has written about much of what we are discussing.

http://www.randomhouse.com/features/cahill/home

There are some beautiful pictures posted there.

Justin
January 26, 2007 - 10:44 pm
Desiderious Erasmus, a Dutch Catholic priest, who thought Luther went too far, was responsible for launching "Secular Humanism." He came along late in the Renaissance and contributed more to the Reformation movement than to the Renaissance. However, the roots of what is known as "Secular Humanism are certainly evident in the Renaissance. We have not dealt with Erasmus yet but may, even though he is a part of the Northern Renaissance as opposed to the Italian version of that movement.

Justin
January 26, 2007 - 11:08 pm
You will recall that the Greek literary works came to us by way of the Islamic copiest academies in Spain in the Duecento. Copies of those works began to feed into Italy and in the early Trecento. Aquinas' Summa, written in that period, incorporates some Aristotelean thought indicating that copies were available to him.

The introduction of classical literature into Italian intellectual circles and the discovery of buried Roman cities and art pieces helped convince Italian thinkers of the Renaissance that approaches other than the Roman Catholic one were feasible.

Mallylee
January 27, 2007 - 02:18 am
The recent inputs from Ellie, Justin, Gaj and 3Kings about how the causes of the preservation of classical humanism were Irish and Islamic civilisations.And also how Aquinas took Aristotelian virtues and added Jewish ethic of self- sacrificing love.

Did Durant never mention these at all? It seems to me that Durant could have written less about scandals and romances, and more about ideas and history of ideas. However, I must remember there is more to come. Time yet.

robert b. iadeluca
January 27, 2007 - 06:26 am
"The sunshine of the Italian spirit would break through the northern mists. Men and woman would escape from the prison of medieval fear. They would worship beauty in all its forms and fill the air with the joy of resurrection.

"The men who spoke so were too near the event to see the 'Rebirth' in historical perspective or in the confusing diversity of its constituents. But it took more than a revival of antquity to make the Renaissance.

"First of all it took money -- smelly bourgeois money:-the profits of skillful managers and underpaid labor -- of hazardous voyages to the East and laborious crossings of the Alps, to buy goods cheap and sell them dear -- of careful calculations, investments, and loans -- of interest and dividends accumulated until enough surplus could be spared from the pleasures of the flesh from the purchase of senates, signories, and mistresses, to pay a Michelangelo or a Titian to transmute wealth into beauty, and perfume, a fortune with the breath of art.

"Money is the root of all civilization. The funds of merchants, bankers, and the Church paid for the manuscripts that revived antiquity. Nor was it those manuscripts which freed the mind and senses of the Renaissance.

"It was the secularism that came from the rise of the middle classes. It was the growth of the universities, of knowledge and philosophy, the realistic sharpening of minds by the study of law, the broadening of minds by wider acquaintance with the world.

"Doubting the dogmas of the Church, no longer frightened by the fear of hell, and seeing the clergy as epicurean as the laity, the educated Italian shook himself loose from intellectual and ethical restraints. His liberated senses took unabashed delight in all embodiments of beauty in woman, man, and art. His new freedom made him cereative for an amazing century (1434-1534) before it destroyed him wth moral chaos, disintegrative indiviualism, and national slavery.

"The interlude between two disciplines was the Renaissance."

So much here to digest.

It seems from what I read here that the creation and enjoyment of art is at the bottom of people's list of priorities.

Then there is Renaissance coming into existence due to "sharpening of minds by study" and "broadening of minds through acquaintance with the world." How about this 21st century. What with an increasing number of college graduates and travel making the world smaller, are we in a new Renaissance without our realizing it?

As for "money being the root of all civilization," this causes me to ask the basic question:-"What is money." Is it just those few crumpled bills in our wallets? How did civilizations exist before such a thing as money existed?

Robby

BaBi
January 27, 2007 - 07:23 am
Perhaps instead of 'money' one might simply say 'a means of wealth'. It is necessary to be provided with more than the means for necessities, before one can afford to spend on luxuries. Civilizations that did not have what we think of as 'money', had other tradable forms of wealth.

That is not to say that only the wealthy can enjoy beauty, as there is beauty to be found everywhere. But the artist, to create, must have payment for his creation if he is to survive. The 'starving artist' cannot continue long; he needs someone with money/wealth to spare to support his work. So insofar as one equates 'civilization' with thriving art, architecture, music, etc.,..yes, prosperity at least is needed.

Ginger, I put your link into my favorites; I definitely want to spend some more time there.

Babi

Éloïse De Pelteau
January 27, 2007 - 07:47 am
Great question Robby, it doesn't have to be gold or a fat bank account, it is what money represents that creates war. It is the 'things' that money can buy, it is the power money generates, it creates envy, it turns into greed.

Artists aim for immortality by creating pieces that will last more than one century, but only people with money can afford art. Most of us don't know who originally bought most of the art created in the Renaissance, but we know the name of the artist. Artist's masterpieces will go from one palace to the other increasing in value each time. People envy those who own these masterpieces. Real estate creates envy, but it is a fragile treasure, an earthquake can reduce it to rubble, it can burn to the ground, go into disrepair and it can pass to other owners in times of war.

Money can buy a little immortality.

Bubble
January 27, 2007 - 09:10 am
Money can buy leisure. Money can buy the certitude one will not lack the needs for survival and thus one has time for other interests; money is the means to be creative or to acquire the original of others's talent in creating.

Scrawler
January 27, 2007 - 09:43 am
But the big question is: "Can money buy Happiness?"

Éloïse De Pelteau
January 27, 2007 - 10:19 am
"How did civilizations exist before such a thing as money existed?"

If money as we know it didn't always exist, the equivalent of money has always existed, cave men had instruments to kill for food and for shelter for his family, then men had territory, women, weapons and precious stones, men bartered for those or fought to keep their possessions which made others envious.

I am sure that you know the answer to your question Scrawler. For some just having money makes them happy, for others it is things like clothes, jewelry, palaces, for others no money on earth can buy love and even without money they are happy, if they have love, but even there happiness is a a series of short moments in life. Happiness can't be bought or sold.

robert b. iadeluca
January 27, 2007 - 11:56 am
Many, if not most of us, misquote the Bible regarding money and evil, saying: "Money is the root of all evil." The actual quote is:--

"For the love of money is at the root of all kinds of evil. And some people, craving money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many sorrows."--- 1 Timothy 6:10

robert b. iadeluca
January 27, 2007 - 11:59 am
Any further comments made regarding the numerous topics brought up by Durant in Post 885?

Robby

Traude S
January 27, 2007 - 02:25 pm
From our viewpoint in this 21st century, the sentence would read "Money or an equivalent thereof is at the root of all civilization(s)."

As for "The funds of merchants, bankers, and the Church ...", we know whence the Church's funds came, and still come - the contributions, the "pledges" of the faithful, gladly given, for sure.

But is has always struck me as totally incongruous that the Church should find the motivation, indeed the justification, to accumulate such incredible wealth in praise of a carpenter, a humble man who, after all, did not know where to put down his head at night and depended on the hospitality and kindness of strangers.

And nowhere was that feeling more overwhelming than when I lived in Italy, a land I will always love and where I have been happier than anywhere else - even in desperate times.

As for money even in our own 21st century, where everything can be purchased for the right price, two things cannot be bought : genuine love and health. The latter was true for Jacqueline Bouvier Kennedy Onassis.

I realize this is an introduction of sorts to the age of the Medicis, but I am not entirely convinced that "the educated Italian shook himself loose from intellectual and ethical restraints." I hope we'll see in the upcoming narration how Durant arrived at this generalization.

Justin
January 27, 2007 - 02:28 pm
Money, quite simply is a medium of exchange. It is a device both sides of a transaction accept as having value. Barter was a common form of exchange before money appeared.

Justin
January 27, 2007 - 02:44 pm
It took money and a free exchange of knowledge among the middle and upper classes to produce the Renaissance. Money fostered the recovery of the Loacoan and the exposure of Herculaneum. It paid for the Classical Academy in Florence that promoted classical ideas.It paid for Universities,tuition of students, wages of faculty etc. It paid for the work of artists who accepted the patronage of the Church as well as wealthy merchants and bankers. Money, as always,made the wheels go round.

Rich7
January 27, 2007 - 02:49 pm
As this discussion's token conservative, I feel obligated to post a quote from Ayn Rand on the subject of money.

"Run for your life from any man who tells you that money is evil. That sentence is the leper's bell of an approaching looter."

Rich

Rich7
January 27, 2007 - 03:01 pm
"money" speech from Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged."

http://www.working-minds.com/money.htm

Curiously, much of it sounds like what Justin just wrote in post #895.

It reminds me a bit of the style of Polonius' advice to Laertes (sp?) in Hamlet.

Rich

robert b. iadeluca
January 27, 2007 - 05:53 pm
"Why was northern Italy the first to experience this spring awakening?

"There the old Roman world had never been quite destroyed. The towns had kept their ancient structure and memories and now renewed their Roman law. Classic art survived in Rome, Verona, Mantua, Padua.

"Agrippas Pantheon still functioned as a place of worship though it was fourteen hundred years old. In the Forum one could almost hear Cicero and Caesar debating the fate of Catiline. The Latin language was still a living tongue of which Italian was merely a melodious variant. Pagan deities, myths, and rites lingered in popular memory or under Christian forms.

"Italy stood athwart the Mediterranean, commanding that basin of classic civilization and trade. Northern Italy was more urban and industrial than any other region of Europe except Flanders. It had never suffered a full feudalism but had subjected its nobles to its cities and its merchant class.

"It was the avenue of trade between the rest of Italy and transalpine Europe and between Western Europe and the Levant. Its commerce and industry made it the richest region in Christendom. Its adventurous traders were everywhere from the fairs of France to the farthest ports of the Black Sea.

"Accustomed to dealing with Greeks, Arabs, Jews, Egyptians, Persians, Hindus and Chinese, they lost the edge of their dogmas and brought into the literate classes of Italy that same indifference to creeds which in ninteenth century Europe came from widening contacts with alien faiths.

"Mercantile wisdom, however, conspired with national traditions, temperament and pride to keep Italy Catholic even while she became pagan. Papal fees trickled to Rome along a thousand rivulets from a score of Christian lands and the wealth of the Curia overflowed throughout Italy. The Church rewarded Italian loyalty with a generous lenience to the sins of the flesh and a genial tolerance (before the Council of Trent, 1545) of heretical philosophers who refrained from undermining the piety of the people.

"So Italy advanced, in wealth and art and thought, a century ahead of the rest of Europe. It was only in the sixteenth century when the Renaissance faded in Italy, that it blossomed in France, Germany, Holland, England, and Spain.

"The Renaissance was not a period in time but a mode of life and thought moving from Italy through Europe with the course of commerce, war, and ideas."

It's all beginning to make sense to me. No such epoch known as the Renaissance.

Robby

Traude S
January 27, 2007 - 06:54 pm
Yes, ROBBY, I agree. Stll, when we speak of the Italian Renaissance, we think of works of art first and much more readily than of "commerce, war, and ideas".
Here again Durant expresses his own opinion and interpretation.

gaj
January 27, 2007 - 08:24 pm
Traude ~ I agree with you that when I think 'Italian Renaissance' I think of the arts of sculpture and painting. When I think of the Elizabethan (English) Renaissance I think of works of literature such as plays and poetry. Could it be that the 'arts' can only be created in a time of relative lack of war?

Justin
January 27, 2007 - 10:04 pm
Rich: I regard Ayn Rand as more of a self-reliant classical liberalist than a conservative. She advocated maximum freedom for the individual. The end extreme of conservatism is a dictatorship. The end extreme of liberalism is anarchy.

Justin
January 27, 2007 - 10:15 pm
Gaj: That is the premise of this discussion. You will find it in the quotes above. Art is a product of peace.

Civization begins where Chaos and insecurity ends.

Justin
January 27, 2007 - 10:26 pm
Indiference to creeds is a product of exposure to other cultures than one's own. That happens when trade and commerce expand and bring home the ways of other peoples. Because Italy reached out so far into the world it was only natural that her trading cities would acquire knowledge of foreign customs and foreign religious practices which conflicted with the dogmas of Catholicism. The trading cities of Italy were in the north primarily. Venice and Genoa particularly were cities that traded in the east in places that were not influenced by Catholic dogma.

Bubble
January 28, 2007 - 01:58 am
LAOCOON

http://www.bluffton.edu/%7Esullivanm/laocoon/laocoon.html

Seeing other cultures than one's own, one starts to realize that it is possible to have a good, rich, full life without the restrictions imposed by one's culture, beliefs or whatever. One becomes more open to different views and more liberal in thoughts. That IMHO leads one to be more civilized.

Mallylee
January 28, 2007 - 02:02 am
Indiference to creeds is a product of exposure to other cultures than one's own.

Does this happen when communism is the state creed?

Mallylee
January 28, 2007 - 02:04 am
"So Italy advanced, in wealth and art and thought, a century ahead of the rest of Europe. It was only in the sixteenth century when the Renaissance faded in Italy, that it blossomed in France, Germany, Holland, England, and Spain.M

A particularly graphic metaphor !

Rich7
January 28, 2007 - 06:37 am
Justin, I'm surprised at you. The extreme of conservatism is less government and more individual responsibility. The extreme of liberalism is more government "taking care" of everyone.

Rich

robert b. iadeluca
January 28, 2007 - 07:04 am
The Material Basis

robert b. iadeluca
January 28, 2007 - 07:10 am
"Florence, in the fifteenth century, was a city-state ruling not only Florence but (with interruptions) Prato, Pistoia, Pisa, Volterra, Cortona, Arezzo and their agricultural hinterland.

"The peasants were not serfs but partly small proprietors, mostly tenant farmers who lived in houses of crude cemented stone much as today and chose their own village officials to govern them in local affairs.

"Machiavelli did not disdain to chat and play with these hardy knights of the field, the orchard, or the vine. But the magistrates of the cities regulated sales and, to appease a troublesome proletariat, kept food prices too low for peasant happiness.

"So the ancient strife of country and city added its somber obligato to the songs of hate that rose from embattled classes within the city walls."

Robby

Traude S
January 28, 2007 - 08:13 am
Niccolò Machiavelli and the Medicis - I'm looking forward to Durant's narration.

Mallylee
January 28, 2007 - 09:52 am
I am looking forward to Machiavelli's ideas, which someone who likes M has said are unjustly maligned

Justin
January 28, 2007 - 02:33 pm
Rich: You are caught up in the propaganda of American political parties. Conservatism tries to maintain the established institutions and the status quo. It is not given to change.In the US it tends to support business interests over the interests of the individual. Liberalism on the other hand strives to increase freedom among individuals. Less government control is it's object. Lets consider some examples. "Choice" is a liberal position. A constitutional amendment is a conservative position. "Burn the flag in protest" is a liberal position. A constutional amendment is a conservative position. "Let Chrysler Die" was a liberal position. Federal Loan bailout was a conservative position. School prayer is a conservative position. Do your own thing is a liberal position.

Rich I suspect you are a liberal thinker, afterall.

If all else fails try the dictionary.

robert b. iadeluca
January 28, 2007 - 04:25 pm
Before we get caught up in a discussion on American political beliefs, shall we have some reaction to Durant's words in Post 909?

Robby

Justin
January 28, 2007 - 05:07 pm
Mally; Your 905 on Communism is challenging but i think the proposition holds. Don't you?

bluebird24
January 28, 2007 - 05:50 pm
http://www.yesnet.yk.ca/schools/projects/renaissance/medici.html I like the pictures here Lorenzo on a horse and Cosimo family tree too:)

Traude S
January 28, 2007 - 09:38 pm
IMHO the quoted portion is not detailed enough to generate comments. Only Machiavelli's last name has come up so far, and I thought I'd wait what else Durant is going to tell us about him and the Medicis in order to avoid possible duplication.

robert b. iadeluca
January 29, 2007 - 06:02 am
"According to Villani the city of Florence proper had in 1343 a population of some 91,500 souls. We have no equally reliable estimate for later Renaissance years but we may presume that the population grew as commerce expanded and industry thrived.

"About a fourth of the city dwellers were industrial workers. The textile lines alone, in the thirteenth century, employed 30,000 men and women in two hundred factories. In 1300 Federigo Oricellari earned his surname by bringing from the East the secret of extracting from lichens a violet pigment (orchella, archil). This technique revolutionized the dye industry and made some woolen manufaccturers into what today would be millionaires.

"In textiles Florence had already reached by 1300 the capitalistic stage of large investment, central provision of materials and machinery, systematic division of labor, and control of production by the suppliers of capital.

"In 1407 a woolen garment passed through thirty processes, each performed by a worker specializing in that operation.

"To sell its products Florence encouraged its merchants to maintain trade with all ports of the Mediterranean and along the Atlantic as far as Bruges. Consuls were stationed in Italy, the Baleares, Flanders, Egypt, Cypress, Constantinople, Persia, India, and China to protect and promote Florentine trade. Pisa was conquered as an indispensable outlet of Florentine goods to the sea and Genoese merchant vessels were hired to carry them.

"Foreign products competitive with Florentine manufctuers were excluded from the markets of Florence through protective tariffs set by a government of merchants and financiers."

Your comments, please?

Robby

BaBi
January 29, 2007 - 07:24 am
a genial tolerance (before the Council of Trent, 1545) of heretical philosophers who refrained from undermining the piety of the people.

"So Italy advanced, in wealth and art and thought, a century ahead of the rest of Europe. It was only in the sixteenth century when the Renaissance faded in Italy, that it blossomed in France, Germany, Holland, England, and Spain.


A logical sequence of events, don't you think? As 'genial tolerance' faded in Italy, the more liberal thinkers would have moved on to safer ground elsewhere, and taken their views and their talents with them.

MALLYLE, I believe a primary reason Communism was able to take hold as it did, was due to it's vigorous monitoring of its people to keep out differing doctrines.

And whatever you do, you don't permit interference with the business that insures your prosperity, right?

Babi

Justin
January 29, 2007 - 03:31 pm
Protective Tariffs have a way of slowly killing the protected industry while enriching a few in the short run. The American Smoot Hawley tariffs brought us the great depression of the 1930's. The effect of the Tariff on the woolen industry in Florence will be seen over time.

Justin
January 29, 2007 - 03:43 pm
The expansion of the wool business in Florence brought prosprity to England as well for they were the suppliers of raw material and the bankers of Florence and Venice and Genoa and Bruges lent the money and earned the interest that the Church frowned upon. The Jews of the world capitalized on that characteristic and the great banking houses of the north were formed. The Rothchilds came into being. The Medicis became Pope and ignored the prohibitions. Shakespeare's Merchant of Venice play is about honoring the conditions of a contract of trade.

BaBi
January 29, 2007 - 04:04 pm
ROTHSCHILDS! Ah, there is a name to conjure with. A remarkable and fascinating family. But I thought they had their beginnings much later, JUSTIN.

Babi

Justin
January 29, 2007 - 06:30 pm
Yes, you are quite right, BaBi. The Rothchilds are from a much later period. They are the red sign family from the mid eighteenth century.They are also out of place in a Renaissance discussion.

Traude S
January 29, 2007 - 08:02 pm
# 907, Communism did not allow any other doctrines. Different varieties existed, all based on a totalitarian system. Marx and Engles were the theorists (The Communist Manifesto, originally published in German in 1848).
Russia was indeed ripe for a change. Serfdom lasted longest there. Lenin and Trotzky were instrumental in bringing about the Russian revolution in 1917.
Under Communism, all property is communal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism

Traude S
January 29, 2007 - 08:18 pm
# 917. Giovanni Villani's Cronaca was evidently Durant's source.

The details in the last quote show an admirable industriousness by merchants and workers alike in the manufacture of textiles, shrewd management in dealing with the competition by inmposing tariffs, and a surprising modernity.

Fifi le Beau
January 29, 2007 - 09:40 pm
Florence in 1343 had a population of 91,500 souls.

About five years later the population was halved when the black plague struck.

From the encyclopedia 2006.....

Florence (Italian, Firenze) is a city in the center of Tuscany, in central Italy, on the Arno River, with a population of around 400,000, plus a suburban population in excess of 200,000.

Expedia gives the population of Florence in 2006 as around 500,000.

Florence has quadrupled its population in the last 650 years, after taking 1,350 years to reach its first 100,000. Now it has in excess of 200,000 in its suburbs, which once was the farm fields that fed the citizens of the city.

Still, Florence seems to have managed its growth quite well, compared to some cities .

The area in which I live is also growing outward at an alarming pace. Farms are being gobbled up by huge housing tracts with pretentious sounding names. Four lane highways are being built and traffic is overwhelming it at every turn. People are moving here from the two nearest cities and then driving 65 and 75 miles back to their job each day. I'd rather eat dirt.

Fifi

winsum
January 30, 2007 - 12:18 am
preparaitory actions before calling on the subconsious to act. If I prepare the work area and put a blank paper or canvus on the easel, I can't keep from beginning to put SOMETHING on it. the scene exerts a pull and I shift into my art mode. It's not magical thinking though. It's just tuning up as with an orchestra.

claire

JUstin told me we're going to have some ART discussion in here soon.

"waiting"

Mallylee
January 30, 2007 - 01:16 am
winsum. like Kandinski(was it Kandinski?) 'taking a line for a walk?'

robert b. iadeluca
January 30, 2007 - 04:27 am
Claire:-You will find the subject of "art" entering and receding constantly throughout the volume. I hope you will continue to post with us even when the subtopic is about other aspects of civilization.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
January 30, 2007 - 04:41 am
"The bankers, merchants, manufacturers, professional men, and skilled workers of Europe were organized in guilds.

"In Florence seven guilds (arti, arts, trades) were known as arti maggiori or greater guilds:-clothing manufacturers, wool manufacturers, silk goods manufacturers, fur merchants, financiers, physicians and druggists, and a mixed guild of merchants, judges, and notaries.

"The remaining fourteen guilds of Florence were the arti minori or minor trades:-clothiers, hosiers, butchers, bakers, vintners, cobblers, saddlers, armorers, blacksmiths, locksiths, carpenters, innkeepers, masons and stone cutters and a motley conglomeration of oil sellers, pork butchers, and ropemakers.

"Every voter had to be a member of one or another of these guilds and the nobles who had been defranchised in 1282 by a bourgeois revolution joined the guilds to regain the vote.

"Below the twenty-one guilds were seventy-two unions of voteless workingmen. Below these, thousands of day laborers forbidden to organize and living in impotent poverty. Below these -- or above them as better cared for by their masters -- were a few slaves.

"The members of the greater guilds constituted in politics the popolo grasso, the fat or well fed people. The rest of the population composed the popolo minuto or little people.

"The political history of Florence, like that of modern states, was first the victory of the business class over the old landowning aristocracy and then the struggle of the 'working lcass' to acquire political power."

OK, folks. Here it is. Class by class by class. Look about you. What do you see in our "classless" society?

Robby

Bubble
January 30, 2007 - 08:15 am
There are still higher class and lower classes: lawyers and doctors are in higher hierarchy compared to butchers or tailors and probably even compared to teachers. Ask a Jewish momma whom she wants as husband for her daughter. lol

mabel1015j
January 30, 2007 - 09:07 am
Classless society??? Did anyone see 20/20 Friday night? Camden,NJ vs Moorestown,NJ just 10 minutes away? Camden - a father of 6 children trying to fight the cockroaches in attached housing - have any of you had to do that - impossible! Stretching the food stamps at the end of the month. No electricity on some days.......drive 7 miles east and here is Moorestown - voted the best town to live in in America by MOney Mag last year.....got that? Money Mag! More luxury cars than you can imagine - who needs a Hummer?.....million dollar homes by the dozens......of course, keeping w/ my theme of "we live in the best of times" even those in Camden are fortunate that there are food stamps and welfare payments - imagine what the poor had to endure in the fourteenth century..........jean

winsum
January 30, 2007 - 09:24 am
"In Florence seven guilds (arti, arts, trades) were known as arti maggiori"

this looks hopeful but. . . .

art as part of the greater guild? is not reflected in the present or for a long time. The starving artist is more typical. Durant was a socialist. He's most interested in art as a class of people living in a layered society.

Will he get down to discussing individuals ad their works?

just wondering

claire

Bubble
January 30, 2007 - 09:52 am
Claire, no patience?

It is most interesting to see how the people are organized at the time, the total atmosphere the artists lived in when they produced those great chefs d'oeuvre. It add an additional dimention to their work, don't you see? Artists did not live in limbo.

winsum
January 30, 2007 - 10:07 am
their life style doesn't interest me. I'm more interested in their identities and their works. so far well so far . . .sigh

I have noticed that non artists are fixed upon the life style as if it must be exotic or otherwise colorful because of the creative spirit of an artist.

as if it explains the works.

Certainly not true if not attached to a commercial enterprise which can guarantee sales. Patrons were the most important resource for sales and art even now. as an individual pursuit wasn't rewarded . We don't hear of those other artists. ...

Leonardo may be the exception. They were organized into commercial guilds which is not a lifestyle choice but a commercial one.

as for patience when did we start on the Renaissance?. WE aren't supposed to discuss DURANT, but I think an understanding of him is necessary to understand the structure or nonstructure of his books. He's so disorganized and writes about what is most dear to him. . . societies.

claire

winsum
January 30, 2007 - 10:27 am
"It add an additional dimention to their work, don't you see? Artists did not live in limbo." But they do live in a kind of limbo . . . in their heads. Art as a bridge to the subconsious, especially if it is a personal choice not affected by external requirements.

Claire

Bubble
January 30, 2007 - 10:30 am
We are not in a hurry, Robby has years planned to lead us through these volumes, so let's enjoy. It is Societies who make Civilization, not artists alone. A civilization would never survive on artists alone. They are part of it, yes, but just a small part. There are also so numerous ways of being creative and pushing civilization ahead.

P.S. I have yet to see an artist "not affected by external requirements", maybe it is your case?

winsum
January 30, 2007 - 10:35 am
Soc 1a and 1b at UCLA was enough for me. I don't like Durant's style or his theme.so will hold off until he gets into an interest we can share It's all I can do to keep up with the current scene in the world. Now that is really interesting.

claire

winsum
January 30, 2007 - 10:39 am
I was lucky . . .The external requirements come from art history and the present art scene. I do what I can not to let them affect my own work. It's a private place my art, a world that belongs solely to me. can you understand that?

I don't have to sell. I do now and then but it's not a requirement for my lifestyle. If I were a commercial artist it would matter.

I did architectural illustration for a while and it did.

Non artists prefer illustration and LOL they like those best sure they don't take any background to understand and appreciate the time spent making little black dots.

architectural renderings

old art on my web page which is here. Yes in my case. . . and as for the present . . .I started a blog, but am not doing much to maintain it.

the present social arena

claire

winsum
January 30, 2007 - 10:59 am

BaBi
January 30, 2007 - 12:58 pm
The guilds were more than an association of men engaged in the same business. I found the following further explanation:

In its main lines, the organization of the Italian guilds resembled that of the French guilds. Their members were divided into apprentices, journeymen, and employers. Their life was regulated by an elaborate system of statutes bearing on the professional and religious duties of the brethren, the relations of the corporations as a body with the local government, competition, monopoly, care of the sick, of the orphans, etc.

Babi

Traude S
January 30, 2007 - 01:01 pm
Quotation marks around our "classless" society are appropriate. What divides us are not social classes , e.g. between an academician and a plumber, but by the amount of money each makes.

Money is the only gauge in this country. We often wee lists of the richest men, the richest women, and many gasp in reverence and adulation.

I have always believed that it is more important what one IS (believes, represents, etc.) than what one HAS.

winsum
January 30, 2007 - 03:06 pm
My daughter and family and friends was in Washington DC for the "MARCH"

While there they went gallery hopping and she took some pictures but better than that she introduced me to the NATIONAL GALLERY which has EVERYTHING on line. I spent about an hour with the Cezanne part of the collection which also shows three details with each work.

here, I hope
this collection spans from the middle ages. It's a place to look for examples mentioned here, also gives links to the UK Royal Academy and other collections.

One can just follow ones' nose and get a great lesson in ART HISTORY and the civilation in which it was produced.

Evelyn133
January 30, 2007 - 04:10 pm
From Post # 941 - Traude I have always believed that it is more important what one IS (believes, represents, etc.) than what one HAS.

I absolutely agree with you, Traude. I have always felt the same way.

Evelyn

Evelyn133
January 30, 2007 - 04:13 pm
Thanks for the info on the National Gallery, Winsum. I had no idea, but what a great find!

Evelyn

robert b. iadeluca
January 30, 2007 - 05:35 pm
Anyone here interested in the Rise of the Medici? See the GREEN quotes in the Heading.

Robby

Traude S
January 30, 2007 - 08:17 pm
My answer is in the affirmative. The previous quote gave details about the guilds (which were prevalent in other parts of Europe as well) and seems to fall under the heading of 'Setting': The pater patriae, Cosimo dei Medici, has not been formally introduced in the text yet.

gaj
January 30, 2007 - 08:53 pm
Were women in the guilds? At one time cloth making was "Women's Work." Literally!!! When ' factories' were set up, the men worked in them and brought home salaries. It was no longer a communal(family) effort for making money for food, shelter, clothing. As the fly leaf says:"...for over 20,000 years, until the Industrial Revolution, the fiber arts were an enormous economic force, belonging primarily to women."Women's Work: The First 20,000 Years.; Women, Cloth and society in Early Times. by Elizabeth Wayland Barber. BaBi do you mean 'men' in both men and women or just men in post 940?

Justin
January 30, 2007 - 09:48 pm
Claire:Art will be coming up soon but not immediately. Lurk with patience and you shall find it when it appears.

Justin
January 30, 2007 - 09:51 pm
Traude : if money is our only gauge we must place plumbers ahead of many academicians.

winsum
January 30, 2007 - 10:52 pm
Yes I sent a link to all of us a month or so ago. . .maybe I can find it again . . political but also interesting in that at least one of them supported the arts. As I recall the sculptures on their tomb in Florance representing the Dawn etc. were done by Michelangelo. I think it was at his site that the medicis were covered.

I wonder what Durant will have to say.

claire

winsum
January 30, 2007 - 10:58 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medici_family

and their connection to art is further along

HERE

Bubble
January 31, 2007 - 12:54 am
What a family, those Médicis: bankers, statemen or policians, queens, popes, patrons of art and literature, they were present everywhere. We, of course, never hear from the simple common people among that "tribe". This chapter will be interesting

Mallylee
January 31, 2007 - 02:49 am
Traude#941 how intriguing! here in Britain income doesn't determine individuals' impressions of what class someone belongs in, although income influences class markers such as level of education, and lifestyle choices.

Here, conspicuous consumption in certain areas lowers a person in the snobbishness stakes .

robert b. iadeluca
January 31, 2007 - 03:49 am
"In 1345 Cinto Brandini and nine others were put to death for organizing the poorer workers in the woolen industry and foreign laborers were imported to break up these unions.

"In 1368 the 'little people' attempted a revolution but were suppressed.

"Ten years later the tumulto dei Ciompi -- the revolt of the wool carders -- brought the working classes for a dizzy moment into control of the commune. Led by a barefoot workingman, Michele di Lando, the carders surged into the Palazzo Vecchio, dispensed the Signory, and established a dictatorship of the proletariat. The laws against unionization were repealed, the lower unions were enfranchised, a moratorium of twelve years was declared on the debts of wage earners, and interest rates were reduced to further ease the burdens of the debtor class.

"Business leaders retaliated by shutting down their shops and inducing the landowners to cut the food supply. The harassed revolutionists split into factions -- an aristocracy of labor consisting of skilled craftsmen and a 'left wing' moved with commnistic ideas.

"Finally the conservatives brought in strong men from the countryside, armed them, overthrew the divided government, and restored the business class to power."

Again a conflict between the classes -- ever present throughout the growth of Civilization.

Robby

BaBi
January 31, 2007 - 06:42 am
Mea Culpa, GINNY ANN. All references to the powerful guilds seem to indicate men dominating there, as elsewhere. Did the women run the fabric-related guilds, I wonder, or just do all the work? (Now that would be typical, wouldn't it?)

ESP had an excellent in-depth series on the Medicis. A very dangerous time to live in, for those who sought to rise to the top. They did a great deal of good, but were entirely ruthless in gaining and keeping their power.

Babi

winsum
January 31, 2007 - 09:20 am
In the UK doesn't speech and accent make a difference or so I've heard. MY mother in law came from Wales originally through Canada to the USA ad California. Her son was always embarrassed by her speech. Ask if she'd like a cup of tea and she'd drawl "waull, I don mind" a cockney accent?

Claire

Mallylee
January 31, 2007 - 10:57 am
Winsum, in the UK there are many dialects besides the one that the Queen and the aristocracy use, and some are more highly prized than others. However, in recent years there has been so much acceptance of regional dailects that the dialect that the Queen uses is heard as an oddity.I understand that she has slightly changed the way she speaks so that she doesn't sound out of touch;I don't know whether this was deliberate or not.

What is more likely to increase perceived status than dialect is education which does not depend on which dialect is one's mother tongue. Cockney dialect is well received now. It was not always so.

Vocabulary and ability to communicate are class markers, certainly.

robert b. iadeluca
January 31, 2007 - 05:53 pm
Is anyone interested in discussing the Rise of the Medici as listed in the GREEN quotes in the Heading?

Robby

Traude S
January 31, 2007 - 08:51 pm
ROBBY, I'm familiar with "Il tumulto dei Ciompi" and Michele Lando, but never heard of Cinto Brandini.

May I add that "Signoria" was the name for the ruling body of Florence.

Having completed "The Setting", Durant is elaborating on The Material Basis . We are getting closer to Cosimo. While we wait for the disclosure, may I provide the visual pleasure of a link to the Palazzo Vecchio, also called Palazzo della Signoria, long a museum. At the entrance is Michelangelo's famous statue of David.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palazzo_Vecchio


Winsum There's so much to enjoy in this link !

winsum
January 31, 2007 - 08:58 pm
Palazzo Vecchio

and the David which looks so small down in the corner.

Claire

Traude S
January 31, 2007 - 09:23 pm
CLAIRE, we posted within minutes of each other.

I'd like to add a word about dialects. Most languages I speak have them.
The fascinating fact is that a dialect becomes more pronounced, more discernible, and is articulated more sharply, as one travels from the North Sea south to the Mediterranean.

I submit that a fine ear can discern the geographical provenance of a person from the dialect he/she uses.

But considerably more can be learned about a person from the way he/she manages the language - in dialect or without.

I'm afraid education has something to do with it.

winsum
January 31, 2007 - 09:33 pm
They say that californians don't have a dialect or accent but what I think has happened is that most of the actors we are used to performed for the movie studios and ilke in California.

my grandmother was born in Germany and came here at the age of fifteen. She never lost her German Accent. still had it at age 86.

My poet friend Jan was born in New york and lived in Brooklyn and he still has some of that in his speech. He is very well educated and writes gorgeous poetry. . .so there is a question about that too.

Claire

Traude S
January 31, 2007 - 09:35 pm
CLAIRE, David is HUGE, believe me.

I remember most vividly one of the smaller salas in the Palazzo Vecchio where, in the time of the Medicis, petitioners were received for an audience. A big chair was placed over a trap door.
The guide told us with a sly smile that if the visitor was "undesirable", the trap door would be opened, visitor and chair be thrown down a tunnel to the Arno river, never to be seen again. It was a violent time.

Have we improved all that much, I wonder ?

How civil are we in our civilization ?

winsum
January 31, 2007 - 11:10 pm
David is huge if you are standing next to him but if you are the palace. . .I think it has something to do with relativity. . lol

now we can talk about that, while waiting on Durant.

claire

robert b. iadeluca
February 1, 2007 - 05:38 pm
Any remarks regarding all the actions in Post 954?

Robby

Rich7
February 1, 2007 - 05:52 pm
"Led by a barefoot workingman, Michele di Lando, the carders surged into the Palazzo Vecchio, dispensed the Signory, and established a dictatorship of the proletariat."

Dictatorship of the proletariat. Interesting choice of words by Durant. The expression was supposedly first used by Karl Marx in "The Communist Manefesto" in 1854. It's very unlkely that Michele di Lando used those words to describe the outcome of his uprising in the 14th century.

Do we see a little of Durant's "closet socialism" peeking out?

At the very least, he is laying a 19th and 20th century template on events of the 14th. I guess that's OK; we all do that.

Rich

bluebird24
February 1, 2007 - 06:02 pm
http://www.twingroves.district96.k12.il.us/Renaissance/guildhall/guilds/guildinfo.html

no pictures here:(

bluebird24
February 1, 2007 - 06:07 pm
http://www.polomuseale.firenze.it/english/uffizi/default.asp beautiful pictures here:)

Justin
February 1, 2007 - 06:33 pm
Rich: Traude raised a related thought a few posts back on another topic.She suggested that proletariat was a recent word and therefore inappropriate for the Renaissance. Now you refer to proletariat as a sign of Durant's interest in socialism. Both comments seem reasonable, however, one must also recognize that "proletariat" is the term used to describe Rome's lowest class in both the republican period and in the imperial period. The word is not new and it is not necessarily a product of socialism. It is, I think, a very apt description of what happened in the revolt of the carders.

Rich7
February 1, 2007 - 06:43 pm
The use of the word "proletariat" did not strike me as much as the entire expression "dictatorship of the proletariat." It's an unusual and memorable combination of words, first used, I believe by Karl Marx in the "Communist Manifesto" in 1854.

Rich

Edit: The expression "dictatorship of the proletariat" will forever be Karl Marx's, like "benign neglect" will always be Daniel Patrick Moynahan's, and "day of infamy " will eternally be Franklin D. Roosevelt's.

Justin
February 1, 2007 - 06:50 pm
Rich: I agree. It is a memorable combination of words and certainly they did appear in Marx's work, "The Manifesto."

Justin
February 1, 2007 - 07:05 pm
There are elements of the Carders Revolt in our contemporary life. The proletariat rose beginning in the Thirties when the CIO, Af of L,ILGWU, and the miner's unions revolted and grew in power through the fifties and sixties with great influence in the House and Senate only to lose strength under Nixon and Reagan and finally under the Bushes to be completely wiped out. The beginning of this movement was violent but in the end they were crushed and went out like a lamb leaving a residue that is hard for business managers to cope with.

robert b. iadeluca
February 2, 2007 - 05:03 am
Cosimo "Pater Patriae"

robert b. iadeluca
February 2, 2007 - 05:14 am
"Politics in Florence was the conflict of wealthy families and factions -- the Ricci, Albizzi, Medici, Ridolfi, Pazzi, Pitri, Strozzi, Rucellai, Valori, Capponi, Soderini -- for control of the government. From 1381 to 1434, with some interruptions, the Albizzi maintained their ascendancy in the state and valiantly protected the rich against the poor.

"The Medici family can be traced back to 1201 when Chiarissimo de' Medici was a member of the Communal Council.

"Averardo de' Medici, great-great-gransfather of Cosimo, founded the fortune of the family by bold commerce and judicious finance and was chosen gonfalonier in 1314. Averardo's grandnephew, Salvestro de Medici, gonfalonier in 1378, established the popularity of the family by espousing the cause of the rebel poor.

"Salvestro's grandnephew, Giovanni di Bicci de' Medici, gonfalonier in 1321, further endeared the family to the people by supporting -- though he himself would suffer heavily from it -- an annual tax (catasto) of one half of one per cent on income, which was reckoned at seven per cent of a man's capital.

"The rich, who had previously enjoyed a poll or head tax merely equal to that paid by the poor, vowed vengeance on the Medici."

Comments, please?

Robby

BaBi
February 2, 2007 - 06:52 am
and valiantly protected the rich against the poor.

I blinked, and went back to re-read that one. Durant does have some lovely one-liners and I almost missed that one.

Babi

Scrawler
February 2, 2007 - 09:28 am
"...When the Pazzi family of Florence, antagonists of Lorenzo de Medici the Magnificent, could endure the frustrations of their hatred no longer, they plotted to murder him and his handsome brother Giuliano during High Mass in the cathedral. The signal was to be the bell marking the elevation of the Host, and at this most solemn moment of the service, the swords of the attackers flashed. Giuliano was killed but Lorenzo alertly saved himself by his long sword and survived to direct a revenge of utter annihilation upon the Pazzi and their partisans. Assassinations were frequently planned to take place in churches, where the victim was less likely to be surrounded by an armed guard." "The March of Folly": "The Renaissance Popes Provoke the Protestant Secession" (p.59) by Barbara W. Tuchman

So much for the "safety" of the church, but what do expect when those attending the services believed more in a material world than a Christian one.

winsum
February 2, 2007 - 10:03 am
been watching our senators and house members on C-span.At least they don't wear swords.they are confirming the military leaders selected by the administration. These are from FAMILIES of the marines, the navy etc. the new elite?

Evelyn133
February 2, 2007 - 01:31 pm
"In Florence only 3200 males could vote; and in both councils the representatives of the business class were a rarely challenged majority. The upper classes were convinced that the illerate masses could form no sound or safe judgment of the community good in domestic crises or foreign affairs." -

No wonder the workers revolted...they had no say in government, could not join a guild and were little better than slaves.

Then the business leaders retaliated by withholding food and bringing in foreign workers....

Thank goodness for Salvestro de' Medici.

This is a very interesting, exciting story of history. I can't wait to see what happens next.

Evelyn

Justin
February 2, 2007 - 01:42 pm
It is amazing how quickly an alteration in the tax code will make people sit up and take notice. The graduated income tax, it seems was just as unpopular among the rich in Trecento Italy as it is today in the US. The head tax or flat tax as we call it today is a more desirable way for the wealthy to do one's part in supporting the government. The Tuscans wanted less government too just as Reagan wanted less government.By that they both meant lower taxes for businessmen so business can reinvest and thereby increase one's holdings. Ah, it's a fun game this taxation game.

robert b. iadeluca
February 2, 2007 - 06:07 pm
"Giovanni di Bicci died in 1428, bequeathing to his son, Cosimo a good name and the largest fortune in Tuscany -- 179,221 florins ($4,480,525).

"Cosimo was already thirty-nine years old, fully fit to carry on the far flung entrprises of the firm.

"These were not confined to banking. They included the management of extensive farms, the manufacure of silk and woolen goods, and a varied trade that bound Russia and Spain, Scotland and Syria, Islam and Christendom. Cosimo, while building churches in Florende saw no sin in making trade agreements and exchanging costly presents with Turkish sultans.

"The firm made a specialty of importing from the East articles of little bulk and great value, like species, almonds, and sugar and sold these and other products in a score of European ports."

A multi-national corporation.

Robby

Justin
February 2, 2007 - 06:28 pm
I marvel that Cosimo could sustain such an enterprise in an era when travel and communication required long periods of time and single transactions might take years to complete.

Malryn
February 2, 2007 - 08:47 pm

HOUSE OF MEDICI

Bubble
February 3, 2007 - 02:54 am
Cosimo must have had trusted and faithful agents everywhere.

robert b. iadeluca
February 3, 2007 - 05:11 am
Good to see you back again, Mal.

That detailed link of the various generations of the House of Medici is excellent.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 3, 2007 - 05:24 am
"A parliamento appointed a balia and gave it supreme power.

"After serving three short terms Cosimo relinquished all political positions. 'To be elected to office,' he said, 'is often prejudicial to the body and hurtful to the soul.'

"Since his ememies had left the city, his friends easily dominated the government. Without disturbing republican forms, he managed, by persuasion or money, to have his adherents remain in office to the end of his life. His loans to influential families won or forced their support. His gifts to the clergy enlisted their enthusiastic aid. His public benefactions, of unprecedented scope and genorsity, easily reconciled the ciizens to his rule.

"The Florentines had observed that the constitution of the Republic did not protect them from the aristocracy of wealth. The defeat of the Ciompi had burned this lesson into the public memory. If the populace had to choose between the Albizzi, who favored the rich, and the Medici, who favored the middle classes and the poor.

"It could not long hesitate. A people oppressed by its economic masters, and weary of faction, welcomed dictatorship in Florence in 1434, in Perugia in 1389, in Bologna in 1491, in Siena in 1477, in Rome in 1347 and 1922.

Said Viliani, 'The Medict were enabled to attain supremacy in the name of fredom and with the suppport of the popolo and the populace.'"

1922?

Robby

BaBi
February 3, 2007 - 07:17 am
MALRYN's link also helped clear up some confusion for me. The Medici sons were typically given their grandfathers name, so there were 2-3 Lorenzos, Pieros, and Cosimos. If one does not have their respective dates firmly in mind, (and I don't) it can be quite confusing.

I do admire Cosimo's technique. Using one's money generously in order to gain and keep friends and supporters,...hey, that's actually Biblical wisdom! And the man was wise enough to leave office as soon as he safely could, recognizing the dangers to body and soul in power politics. The man was a rare genius, IMO.

Babi

Éloïse De Pelteau
February 3, 2007 - 10:57 am
"The firm made a specialty of importing from the East articles of little bulk and great value, like species, almonds, and sugar and sold these and other products in a score of European ports." Products easy to transport by land or sea.

How expensive a product becomes when it is much in demand especially when it comes from far. What is there today that is extremely valuable, gold? diamonds? no, but crude oil has become as valuable as gold used to be to satisfy the demands of the population whose very life depends on it to earn a living. The automotive industry has risen far above other industries in wealth surpassing the wealth of precious gems and metals.

The oil barons are making sure that the need for black gold will remain rare and expensive by preventing alternatives from surfacing. They are the ones who call the shots politically and economically. They are the Medicis of today.

winsum
February 3, 2007 - 11:14 am
otherwise known as Bush family buddies.

robert b. iadeluca
February 3, 2007 - 11:23 am
There are many political discussion groups in Senior Net. As indicated in my first posting when this volume and previous volumes opened, we refrain in Story of Civilization from comments on current political figures -- only those in the historical period being covered by Durant. This ground rule over the past five years has led to a lack of dissension often found in SN political discussions.

Robby

Justin
February 3, 2007 - 01:27 pm
I wish to compliment Eloise on her 987 posting- a very astute observation. There are many contemporary parallels in Durant and it is well to bring them out as they appear. We should not be deprived of modern connection.

robert b. iadeluca
February 3, 2007 - 03:47 pm
She did, indeed, make an astute observation. That is quite different from referring by name to current political figures. We have often in this discussion group compared historical actions with present-day actions without commenting on people by name or in, some roundabout way, implying a specific person.

Robby

Evelyn133
February 3, 2007 - 04:38 pm
Thank you, Malryn, for posting the link to the House of Medici.

It was very helpful to me.

Evelyn

Éloïse De Pelteau
February 3, 2007 - 04:55 pm
Right, I should get off my soap box, let's see what Durant will say now about the Medicis family. I only read about Catherine de Medicis before and never about her interesting ancestors.

Justin
February 3, 2007 - 05:14 pm
Touche.

bluebird24
February 3, 2007 - 05:40 pm
http://www.museumsinflorence.com/musei/medici_riccardi_palace.html

bluebird24
February 3, 2007 - 05:45 pm
http://gallery.euroweb.hu/tours/gozzoli/frame2.html

click on chapel picture on left:)

bluebird24
February 3, 2007 - 06:00 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adoration_of_the_Magi

click on Gozzoli Three Wise Men picture

Justin
February 3, 2007 - 07:26 pm
Bluebird: Thanks for the images of the Medici Riccardi. You will notice that the building and its elevation are flat. The emphasis is on horizontality. The windows are rounded as in the Romanesque of an earlier century in France. The arcades of the courtyard are supported by pillars or columns adorned by capitals reminiscent of the Corinthian style. This is the Italian interpretation of classicism. Elements of the building are balanced and even. These characteristics are opposed to those of the Gothic which has dominated France and England for the last two cnturies. Thre the emphasis is on verticality. The Gothicists stove in their buildings to raise one's eyes up to "heaven."

This building in Florence is one of the earliest in the Renaissance style in that city.

Justin
February 3, 2007 - 07:54 pm
Thanks again, Bluebird. The Murillo and the Gozzoli are both housed in the Medici Riccardi. The Iconography is very different in these works. Murillo has given the more typical Adoration. However, the Gozzoli is an expression of the religious processions so characteristic of Sienna and Florence. The guilds especially conduct processions in the piazzas that end at a guild's patron church. Sometimes the processionals are led by a patron saint and they are always accompanied by colorful clothes and banners of the guild as well as drums or horns to signal their approach. This practice is still carried on in Florence and Sienna. One may also see processions in Italian enclaves in the USA today. They are quite common. Gozzoli's work in the US is quite rare. One of his works hangs in the Cloister in New York. .

winsum
February 3, 2007 - 08:00 pm

winsum
February 3, 2007 - 08:11 pm
is it faded? except for the trees or does he do that paint it all in warm umber glaze with a warm red and then begin the opaque with a dark green. Hm I did that today myself so am aware of it. My burnt umber makes a complete under painting and I was thinking about what color to use as a unifying glaze.. interesting if that's his technique. . . claire

winsum
February 3, 2007 - 08:58 pm
is technically medium Oil on wood panel Size 24.3 x 24.6 cm Location Galleria degli Uffizi

Adoration of the Magi c1479-81

"This unfinished altarpiece was originally commissioned by the monks of San Donato a Scopeto, a monastery near Florence, in March 1481. Leonardo’s father, who administered the monastery’s finances, may have played a role in obtaining the commission. The painting was left unfinished by Leonardo when he moved to Milan sometime before 1483."

I had to look it up thinking that it couldn't be a fresco where they paint on wet plaster and it isn't. So much for my materials classes et all. It's unfinished. He mayhave had asistants because some of the areas are treated with a darker umber. techniques interest me since we studied them, did the egg yolk tempra thing et all.

Claire

winsum
February 3, 2007 - 09:11 pm
leonardo paintings

at the same site thirteen hot links to his paitings.

Leonardo da Vinci, 1452-1519 Madonna Litta (ca. 1490-91) Tempera on canvas, transferred from panel 42 x 33 cm (16 1/2 x 13 in.) The Hermitage, St. Petersburg

was painted in tempra on a wood panel. Eggs are an emulsion and were used for this on top of a gesso base. It's done on paper too nowadays actually on anything that is smooth and white Ishould think. . .

and is the basis for the new WATER SOLUBLE OIL paints put out by Holbein, Windsor Newton and others, essentially oil after the water vaporates. That's what I'm using now. experimenting . . .Claire

winsum
February 3, 2007 - 09:58 pm
I was looking for a history of GESSO and found this wonderful site which also explains silver and gold point and the evolution of leadpoint or the pencil. see the following site for Leonardo's use of silverpoint also.

http://silverpointweb.com/overview.html

silverpoint soldier by Leonardo

and another one probably earlier? silver point drawing leonardo

Claire

winsum
February 3, 2007 - 10:11 pm
was made from things like ground up chicken bones or ash and spit.

we artists have to make do. I've used tea and coffee and herbs to draw with.. . i.e. red pepper or black, ground cinnamon etc. and come to think of it. wet myh finger and rubbed them . . .spit.

Claire

Justin
February 3, 2007 - 11:53 pm
1922 also struck me as odd. Durant must be referring to the Musolini period. I do not know very much about the political mechanics of that period but I do know that Fasci has its origin in the Roman Fasci which were bundles of rods carried by sideboys when an official went abroad. The Fasci were a symbol of power. Musolini put the Fasci on stamps and building facades and in governmental symbolism.The term "fascism" is probably related.

robert b. iadeluca
February 4, 2007 - 06:51 am
"It was the good fortune of Italy and mankind that Cosimo cared as much for literature, scholarship, philosophy, and art as for wealth and power.

"He was a man of education and taste. He knew Latin well and had a smattering of Greek, Hebrew, and Arabic.

"He was broad enough to appreciate the piety and painting of Fra Angelico -- the engaging rascality of Fra Filippo Lippi -- the classical style of Ghiberri's reliefs -- the bold originality of Donatello's sculpture -- the grandiose churches of Brunellesco -- the restrained power of Michelozzo's architecture -- the pagan Platonism of Gemistus Pletho -- the mystic Platonism of Pico and Ficino -- the refinement of Alberti -- the learned vulgarity of Poggio -- the bibliolatry of Niccolo de' Niccoli -- and all these men experienced his generosity.

"He brought Joannes Argyropoulos to Florence to instruct its youth in the language and literature of ancient Greece and for twelve years he studied with Ficino the classics of Greece and Rome. He spent a large part of his fortune collecting classic texts so that the most costly cargoes of his ships were in many cases manuscripts carried from Greece or Alexandria.

"When Niccolo de' Niccoli had ruined hmself in buying ancient manuscripts, Cosimo opened for him an unlimited credit at the Medici bank and supported him untl death. He engaged forty five copyists under the guidance of the enthusiastic bookseller Vespasiano de Bisticci to transcribe such manuscripts as could not be bought.

"All these 'precious minims' he placed in rooms at the monastery of San Marco or in the abbey of Fiesole or in his own librfary. When Niccoli died leaving eight hundred manuscripts valued as 6000 florins ($150,000), along with many debts, and naming sixteen trustees to determine the disposal of the books, Cosimo offered to assume the debts if he might allocate the volumes.

"It was so agreed and Cosimo divided the collection between San Marco's library and his own."

So many types of art to discuss here -- literature, philosophy, paintings, language, the classics,

Who do we have today the equal of Cosimo?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 4, 2007 - 06:56 am
More about DONATELLO and his sculpture.

Robby

Malryn
February 4, 2007 - 07:01 am

In reference to JUSTIN's post #1006
1922 TIMELINE

robert b. iadeluca
February 4, 2007 - 07:02 am
LAMENTATION OVER A DEAD CHRIST by Donatello.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 4, 2007 - 07:06 am
ST. JOHN THE BAPTIST by Donatello.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 4, 2007 - 07:11 am
DAVID by Donatello.

Robby

BaBi
February 4, 2007 - 07:12 am
Donatello was a great sculptor, but I must say his Mary in the 'Lamentation Over a Dead Christ' is one of the ugliest I've ever seen. She looks a haggqrd 70, when she could not possibly have been more than 47-50, and her features appear to me to be those of a man.

I looked at a number of Fra Lippo Lippi's works, trying to see what Durant meant by "the engaging rascality". It escapes me. Can one of our art buffs clue me in on this one?

Babi

robert b. iadeluca
February 4, 2007 - 07:13 am
DAVID by Donatello.

Robby

Rich7
February 4, 2007 - 07:21 am
or bundle of sticks. The U.S. actually showed the bundle of sticks on the reverse side of its mercury dime (ten cent piece) until 1945.

The bundle of sticks was replaced with a less politically controversial torch.

http://www.coinfacts.com/Dimes/mercury_head_dimes.html

Rich

robert b. iadeluca
February 4, 2007 - 07:23 am
PORTRAIT by Fra Filippo Lippi

Robby

BaBi
February 4, 2007 - 07:24 am
ROBBY, I must admit, that one did make me smile.

Babi

robert b. iadeluca
February 4, 2007 - 07:30 am
More about BRUNELLESCO

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 4, 2007 - 07:44 am
More interesting details about BRUNELLESCO plus a relevant map.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 4, 2007 - 07:49 am
Line art by BRUNELLESCO.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 4, 2007 - 07:55 am
Bio of PICO who Durant relates to "mystic Platonism."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 4, 2007 - 08:00 am
Who was POGGIO who wrote what Durant described as "learned vulgarity?"

Robby

Malryn
February 4, 2007 - 08:52 am

From Page 64 In The Renaissance, by Will and Ariel Durant, to the beginniing of Book II, "the Florentine Renaissance", there are plates of prints of art of this period. Included is one of my favorite paintings: PORTRAIT OF COUNT SASSETTI (?) and HIS GRANDSON (Click here) What realism!

You''re missing a lot if you don't have these books, including the Notes and Bibliography, as well as the artwork, other illustrations and maps.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
February 4, 2007 - 09:24 am
But some don't have the hard cover volumes, Mal, so they rely on people like you who are experts in giving us relevant links. And that portrait you linked is so very powerful. One can look at it for a long period of time.

Robby

winsum
February 4, 2007 - 09:44 am
I like the late period. ST. JOHN THE BAPTIST is a wasted old man so different from the classic noble statues of the early sculptures. The lamentations is so rhythmic it seems real as if the figures could move at any moment. It must be earlier? what are the dates. will look. good job Robby. . . .Claire

winsum
February 4, 2007 - 10:06 am
I looked at the other davids of the period and then there is the one by Bernini two hundred years later. look at the difference. . .everything moves. . . .Claire

winsum
February 4, 2007 - 10:13 am
I remember this from the 1940's at UCLA art history class. Like the grandchild we were all enthralled with that NOSE. lol

Mal we have the internet thank goodness. . .It's full of pictures and the text is bigger . . an issue for me. . . but thanks for that great link.

claire

winsum
February 4, 2007 - 10:27 am
Babi look again at thre Lamentations the faces are all of GRIEF which is ugly and at this time donatello was into the psychology of his characters. There is the woman in back tearing her hair and the one on the left reaching, wanting to help and the the man at the extreme right his arms crossed defensively looking down and away, hiding his feelings. This is incredible for this period. . .

as for Fra Lippo Lippi my teacher said that he was an adventurous monk known for his sensual wanderings. . .also placing his own image importantly in his paintings. . . Claire

winsum
February 4, 2007 - 10:32 am
I'm so happy but the eyes are a limiting factor. 'have to take this in small doses. . .worth waiting around with all those popes and and princes? well . . . almost.

Claire

robert b. iadeluca
February 4, 2007 - 10:40 am
Any comments about Pico and Poggio?

Robby

winsum
February 4, 2007 - 10:48 am
Filippo Brunelleschi an engineer, an inventer as well as a scultor, painter. see here.

an overview? will have to follow up another time eyes. . .

< HERE

Claire

Malryn
February 4, 2007 - 11:17 am

POGGIO

jane
February 4, 2007 - 11:45 am
It's time to continue here...

---Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant ~ Volume V, Part 2