Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant ~ Volume I, Part 7 ~ Nonfiction
jane
July 14, 2002 - 05:57 pm


What are our origins? Where are we now? Where are we headed?

Share your thoughts with us!





  
"I want to know what were the steps by which man passed from barbarism to civilization." (Voltaire)





Volume One ("Our Oriental Heritage")

"Four elements constitute Civilization -- economic provision, political organization, moral traditions, and the pursuit of knowledge and the arts. "

"I shall proceed as rapidly as time and circumstances will permit, hoping that a few of my contemporaries will care to grow old with me while learning. "

"These volumes may help some of our children to understand and enjoy the infinite riches of their inheritance."

"Civilization begins where chaos and insecurity ends." "








THE PEOPLE AND THEIR LANGUAGE

Population - Appearance - Dress - Peculiarities of Chinese speech - Of Chinese writing





"There are many Chinese."

"The Chinese face is one of the most intelligent on earth, though not universally attractive."

"The language of the Chinese differed from the rest of the world even more distinctly than their dress."

"We are told that the Chinese takes from ten to fifty years to become acquainted with all the 40,000 characters in his language."





In this Discussion Group we are not examining Durant. We are examining Civilization but in the process constantly referring to Durant's appraisals.

Dr. Durant worked steadily from 1927 to 1932 and this volume represents the third complete re-writing. "Our Oriental Heritage" deals first with the establishment of civilization and then takes up, in rich and fascinating detail, the colorful complex dramas of the Near East, India and her neighbors, and the Far East.

Every one of the thousands of facts has been checked and double-checked. Extra copies of the manuscript were made and sent to many specialists. It records the cultural history of Sumeria, Egypt, Babylonia, Assyria, Judea, and Persia to their conquest by Alexander and narrates the history of civilization in India from the Vedas to Mahatma Gandhi, in China from Confucius to Chiang Kai-shek, and in Japan from the earliest times to mid-1930s.

This volume, and the series of which it is a part, has been compared with the great work of the French encyclopedists of the eighteenth century. The Story of Civilization represents the most comprehensive attempt in our times to embrace the vast panorama of man's history and culture.

This, then, is about YOU. Join our group daily and listen to what Durant and the rest of us are saying. Better yet, share with us your opinions.



Your Discussion Leader:

Robby Iadeluca





Links to all SOC Vol. I (Our Oriental Heritage) Discussions





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Internet Citation Procedure

jane
July 14, 2002 - 05:59 pm
Remember to subscribe here if you use subscriptions to navigate SeniorNet!

Malryn (Mal)
July 14, 2002 - 06:32 pm

Imagine. This is the Part Six of this discussion, which has been running since November 1, 2001.

Congratulations, Robby, our Faithful Facilitator!

Mal

Justin
July 14, 2002 - 07:10 pm
All this business about gerunds is a little far afield for us but since you broached the subject, let me say," there are four forms of the gerund with which to contend. There is the gerund and the gerundive, the gerund and a participle, the gerund and an infinitive, and finally the gerund and a possessive. If you promise not to raise questions such as this one again, I will refrain from telling you about each form of the gerund.

Éloïse De Pelteau
July 14, 2002 - 07:40 pm
Justin. and I promise to never use the word again. Lets just stick with Durant's history of China. God bless him.

robert b. iadeluca
July 14, 2002 - 08:58 pm
As we enter the 7,000th posting and read the changes in the GREEN quotes above, Durant leads us into what he calls

THE PRACTICAL LIFE

"All the subleties of Chinese thought and the luxuries of Chinese life rested in the last analysis on the fertility of the fields. Fertile fields are not born but made. Through many centuries the early inhabitants of China must have fought against jungle and forest, beast and insect, drought and flood, saltpetre and frost to turn this vast wilderness into fritful soil.

"The victory had to be periodically rewon. A century of careless timber-cutting left a desert and a few years of neglect allowed the jungle to return. The struggle was bitter and perilous. At any moment the barbarians might rush in, and seize the slow growths of the cleared earth.

"The peasants, for their protection, lived not in isolated homesteads but in small communities, surrounded their villages with walls, went out together to plant and cultivate the soil, and often slept through the night on guard in their fields."

Robby

Justin
July 14, 2002 - 10:36 pm
# 7006 The Chinese peasant farmer must have lived a precarious life. The only thing I can think of comparable in the US is frontier farming in the 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries. It was a time when we were pushing our native people off their traditional lands and they did not like the idea.

Bubble
July 15, 2002 - 12:34 am
Eloise - I only read now your HELP call and this is moving on too fast!
I was taught the -ing in English is a progressive form and that's it; in French, the -ant (buvant, dormant) is just a participe present. I never heard of the word gerund except in Latin... Bubble

Bubble
July 15, 2002 - 12:42 am
I see through my inner eye that life for the average Chinese was repeating itself endlessly. A wife would be like her mother, like her daughter would be almost interchangeable without a ripple.



In our western world it would be unthinkable. Each is an individual and not many would conform to such a mold. I am grateful for it too.



I would say that life with a fixed immuable routine would have less hasards in how to choose, decide, create a satisfying future. Bubble

Bubble
July 15, 2002 - 02:34 am
To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders.
-Lao-Tzu, philosopher (6th century BCE)

I read this and thought it was very typical of Chinese thinking.
Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
July 15, 2002 - 03:56 am
A reminder that anyone here (newcomers, oldtimers) can go back and look at any of the discussions we have had since November, 2001. You can read about Primitive Man, Sumeria, Ancient Egypt, Babylonia, Assyria, Judea, Persia, and India. In the Heading just below my name click onto "Links to past SofC discussions."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 15, 2002 - 04:20 am
Please click onto this ENLIGHTENING DETAILED ARTICLE published this morning about various aspects of life in China in our time. You might be interested in comparing what we have been reading about the peasants in Ancient China with the farmer of today's China.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
July 15, 2002 - 08:22 am
Click the link below to see a collection of Chinese peasant paintings. Click the RIGHT ARROW at the bottom of each page to see more. These paintings will tell you something about Chinese peasant life today, which I rather think has not changed much through the centuries.

CHINESE PEASANT PAINTINGS

Bubble
July 15, 2002 - 11:53 am
Such a change in style and colors from what we are used to associate with Chinese painting. And no writing at all on the side of it either. I particularly liked the one about batik drying in the sun.
Bubble

Éloïse De Pelteau
July 15, 2002 - 12:00 pm
Mal - how delightful are those paintings. How they could paint the Great Wall, you can just imagine it from this small painting. The colors are so vibrant.

Justin
July 15, 2002 - 02:23 pm
These paintings by Chinese peasants represent a significant shift in the use of color. Very little of Chinese art work in the past has exhibited an interest in color. I sense an exposure to western art forms. There were several primitives in the manner of Grandma Moses shown in the Shanghai exhibition and the guache of Vegetable's exhibits techniques introduced by Georges Brach, Cezanne, and the Fauvists, particularly painters such as Derain. It would be interesting to see the works exhibited in Shanghai museums for comparison. I'd be willing bet the work of these western painters is available to the Chinese.

Malryn (Mal)
July 15, 2002 - 02:34 pm
I'm sure some Western painting is available to the Chinese, but to peasants? These are peasant paintings. They look like cake watercolor or poster paints to me, which probably are more available than gouache, but who knows? I'd have to know a lot more than I do about the life of Chinese peasants today to stick my neck out and say.

It is the subject matter I'm interested in as far as this discussion goes, frankly, though I did take one and made a border background of it for a future web page because of the color. Never did like working with gouache myself.

Mal

Éloïse De Pelteau
July 15, 2002 - 03:06 pm
Mal, would not the peasants live in mud huts still today? I doubt if they would hang such delicate paintings in their modest dwellings, but i could be wrong. In any case, I would be very happy to have most of them for my own modest home.

Malryn (Mal)
July 15, 2002 - 03:07 pm
And it says right on those paintings that they're painted with gouache. Shows you how much I know!

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
July 15, 2002 - 03:10 pm
Eloise, wonder if there's a painting industry which provides the media to the peasants so their stuff can be sold to the foreign trade? Maybe they sit in a factory and paint all day just as people who do that exquisite embroidery and china painting do in China.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
July 15, 2002 - 04:59 pm
"The methods of the peasants were simple, and yet they did not differ much from what they are today. Sometimes they used ploughs -- first of wood, then of stone, then of iron. More often they turned up their little plots patiently with the hoe. They helped the soil with any natural fertilizer they could find, and did not disdain to collect for this purpose the offal of dogs and men.

"From the earliest times they dug innumerable canals to bring the water of their many rivers to rice paddies or millet fields. Deep chanels were cut through miles of solid rock to tap some elusive stream, or to divert its course into a desiccated plain. Without rotation of crops or artificial manures, and often without draft animals of any kind, the Chinese have wrung two or three crops annually from at least half their soil, and have won more nourishment from the earth than any other people in history."

I wonder how much admiration for the Chinese is felt by the "average" citizen of Western civilizations.

Robby

Justin
July 15, 2002 - 11:14 pm
Robby: Zero.

robert b. iadeluca
July 16, 2002 - 03:44 am
Justin, why do you (and others here) think this is so?

Robby

Bubble
July 16, 2002 - 06:12 am
No admiration at all, no recognition, Robby. If you mention items made in China, it is assumed straight away that it must be a cheap mass produced object that won't last at all. Most people (here) have no idea of the exquisite pieces to be found in China for the connaisseurs. What you find abroad is usually worthless flimsy toys, terrible copies of china bowls.



Only in textile is there a change lately and the quality equals the popular brands from other countries. Bubble

Malryn (Mal)
July 16, 2002 - 06:19 am
I'm from the Northeast coast of the United States and never knew any Chinese or Japanese when I was growing up, or even when I was in college. The exchange of students with our sister college in China had stopped during World War Two, and I entered just after the war.

I met an orthopedist once when I was a kid who had been in China. He told me something about it and gave me a Chinese coin. As a very young girl, I was fascinated by what he said.

Later when I was married I met a Chinese scientist who worked with my husband. A brilliant man, educated in America and an American citizen, he was married to one of the most flamboyant women I've ever met in my life. She played her Chinese-ness to the hilt; wore a long pigtail down her back and short, tight Chinese dresses that were slit on the side of the skirt almost to her neck, had a ballet bar in the kitchen of her apartment which she used more than she cooked, and did everything she could to shock us Americans. She came here from Hong Kong. I don't know her family's background. Neither of these people was typical, I believe, of people one might meet in China, but, of course, I don't know because I've never been there.

I think many Americans know Chinese only through stereotypes and Mao Tse Tung. We have an inordinate fear of Communism, and that affects our view of these people, too.

Chinese and Japanese people look "different", and generally we do not really trust people who do not look like us whites, so treat them as if they are somehow inferior. I believe fear caused by ignorance is the root of this distrust. I admired Dave Wang, the scientist I mentioned, very, very much. I have never known any Japanese people.

Mal

Bubble
July 16, 2002 - 06:40 am
You are right Mal, the strangeness of the look makes people uncomfortable. I have had Chinese, Thai and Pakistani friends In College in UK, and did not really feel them to be any different. However, remembering older generations I found that it was difficult to read their face. They did not show the same emotions one is used to see. Or if you prefer, their body language was different. I think that is what unconsciously bother people.



It is the same with African people. So many times I have heard the remark: Oh they all look the same, you cannot tell one from the other. Their body language can be confusing: you would move your head up and down for “yes”. In Congo it you raise abruptly your chin and make a Tss noise it means a categorical “NO”.
Bubble

MaryPage
July 16, 2002 - 08:23 am
How can any of us assess the understanding Americans have of the Chinese? Each of us arrives at our own perception of other peoples by very different routes.

I read the "twins of foreign countries" series as a small child, and just adored the Chinese Twins book, with its wonderful illustrations. Before I was in my teens, I was reading Pearl Buck. You could not read her without loving many aspects of the Chinese culture and personalities.

I had one aunt who had a "Chinese Room" in her home. Full of furniture and bronzes and a screen and glass cases with fans in them and ink drawings with Chinese characters running down them, etc. She and my uncle had traveled there and loved these things, as I came to do. Another aunt, from the other side of the family, loved Chinese wall paper and used it in her main hall and stairway, as well as in the dining room and one of her parlours. Quite a few relatives collected Chinese porcelains. My own mother collected Blue Willow, which a lot of places make nowadays. I gave most of Mother's pieces to my oldest daughter, who now collects. Starting early, I visited museums and art galleries and found and admired like objects.

I can remember the Japanese invasion of the Chinese Mainland and the dreadful news stories. All of my sympathies were with China then and all during WWII. Just after WWII, living in a brand new subdivision on a VA loan, the couple across the street were both doctors, and Chinese. He was second generation, but she was first and her name was Ming. We became close friends, as did our little girls.

Honestly, I can say I have always had a deep, warm admiration for the Chinese. It has been my assumption that the same has been true for many of my generation.

Malryn (Mal)
July 16, 2002 - 08:45 am
I've had similar experiences to what you had, Mary Page, when it came to exposure to things Chinese in my youth. China and vases and wall hangings from China, bronze boxes, furniture, fans, children's books and Pearl Buck, whose books I never liked and do not like to this day. Blue willow was in practically every house I went in as a kid, including the one I grew up in. The pattern always scared me, and I am queasy when I look at it today. I don't know what I read into it when I was very young.

These things did not cause me to like or dislike the Chinese, and try as hard as I could I never dug a hole deep enough in the backyard to get me there.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
July 16, 2002 - 09:33 am
"The cereals the Ancient Chinese grew were chiefly millet and rice, with wheat and barley as lesser crops. The rice was turned into wine as well as food, but the peasant never drank too much of it. His favorite drink, and next to rice his largest crop, was tea. Used first as medicine, it grew in popularity until, in the days of the T'angs, it entered the realms of export and poetry.

"By the fifteenth century all the Far East was esthetically intoxicated with the ceremony of drinking tea. Epicures searched for new varieties, and drinking tournaments were held to determine whose tea was the best.

"Added to these products were delicious vegetables, sustaining legumes like the soy bean and its sprouts, doughty condiments like garlic and the onion, and a thousand varieties of berries and fruits.

"Least of all products of rural toil was meat. Now and then oxen and buffaloes were used for ploughing, but stock-raising for food was confined to pigs and fowl. A large part of the population lived by snaring fish from the streams and the sea."

No signs here of a Big Mac!

Robby

Jere Pennell
July 16, 2002 - 09:43 am
"Honestly, I can say I have always had a deep, warm admiration for the Chinese. It has been my assumption that the same has been true for many of my generation."

Your assumption would be true for those who have met and gotten to know Chinese people. I do not think it true for those who did not.

About the paintings by the peasants, I would also assume that the "richer" peasants did the painting. It is very difficult to pursue activities like art and music when every waking hour is devoted to survival.

Jere

Bubble
July 16, 2002 - 09:55 am
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=585&e=2&cid=585&u=/nm/20020716/sc_nm/environment_china_dc_3



Science - Reuters

Great Wall Crumbles Beneath China's Growing Wealth Tue Jul 16, 5:52 AM ET By Tamora Vidaillet

robert b. iadeluca
July 16, 2002 - 10:01 am
An excellent link, Bubble. History being destroyed before our very eyes! Wouldn't one have thought that the Chinese, of all people, would have valued the preservation of historical items?

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
July 16, 2002 - 10:24 am
The mixing of races in fairly new to Quebec, I would say it slowly increased after the war. Now in Montreal it is even hard to see someone who seems to have been born here, like me. But we have a neighbor woman who is first generation Vietnamese married to a French Canadian. You have to look hard to detect any oriental features in their 4 children and the kids speak just like everybody else around here. In Vancouver, the unofficial ratio of orientals is 1 in 3. The tendency seems to be that all races will be mixed on earth in a few centuries and it is yet unclear as to which of 2 languages between English or Chinese will be predominant.

decaf
July 16, 2002 - 10:32 am
My son-in-law was born in Hong Kong and lived there until he was twelve. His mother was Peruvian/Chinese and his father full Irish. He has a brother and two sisters. The family seems to have been influenced more by their Chinese heritage. His sisters are older. They are all very intelligent, well traveled, hardworking, attractive, fun and interesting to be with.

My SIL inherited much of his parents Chinese furniture. My daughter's living and dining room is furnished with many of these pieces. The sisters travel to Hong Kong periodically to visit family and connect with their childhood memories.

My six year old granddaughter has blue eyes shaped like her fathers. She is beautiful. She likes to talk about China. Her aunts bring her beautiful Chinese dresses which she loves to wear on occasion.

I live in California and had friends in school that were Japanese. Several family friends are of Japanese descent.

Judy S (CA)

Faithr
July 16, 2002 - 10:40 am
I went to high school with both Japanese and Chinese students. Many in fact. We had a large oriental population in the foothills. One of my friends Anna Park was Korean which she told us was neither one nor the other. Her family was third generation so she was as American as anyone in school. As were most of the other students. They were valuable citizens and added to our school much in the way of academic standing and the Japanes boys were wonderful athletes and also added to our standing in all games except basketball. The war was a terrible thing in the California town I was in. All those American Japanese students sent away to camps...their parents farms and orchards confiscated and many never returned. It was devestating.faith

Bubble
July 16, 2002 - 10:51 am
Eloise, do your neighbor's four children also speak Vietnamese? First born generation usually wants to be completely integrated and to act like the local kids, which makes them unwilling to talk a "foreign" language. Bubble

John Murphree
July 16, 2002 - 11:30 am
Cornelia and I spent a week in China in January, 1985. Our tour took us to the great wall as well as to other very interesting places in China which makes us EXPERTS on the subject. (BG)

The wall was just as fabulous as we had dreamed it would be and very cold in January. We saw no evidence that tourism was hurting it. We had several opportunities to talk with Chinese people and we had a very interesting guide. We visited a farm commune and talked with an old lady through an interpreter. She assured us that they had more than they had back under the old regime, which is what you would expect her to say.

When I was a child the books about China made me want to visit there and when we got there it wasn't much different from what I had imagined it would be. I loved the Chinese food which was a little different from what we have in the States but still was a lot like what we have.

- - - Papa John

Bubble
July 16, 2002 - 11:40 am
http://www.jigzone.com/mpc/view.php?D0JLVG97



http://www.jigzone.com/mpc/view.php?5AJLVJ53



Click on solve to see the Chinese pictures



Chinese painting : Listening to the wind in the Pines.
By Ma Lin, Sing Dynasty.
Hanging scroll, Ink and color on silk, 226,6 cm x 110,3 cm.
Signed by the painter and with the title inscribed by the emperor Li-tsung in 1246. Two seals.



Ma Lin (fl.1250) came from Ho-Chung in Shai-hsi. He was the son of Ma Yuan. He served as Painter-in-Attendance to the courts of Kuang-tsung and Li-tsung at the turn of the twelfth century. His painting of landscapes, figures and birds and flowers continued his family's artistic traditions, although falling somewhat short of his father consummate skill. It has been said that Ma Yuan used to sign his own paintings with his son's name which accounted for Ma Lin's high reputation.



This painting is in the collection of the National Palace Museum in Taipei. I own only a reproduction bought at the museum.



Silk Painting
Three symbols of Happiness, Prosperity and Longevity.



Anonymous
Ch'ing Dynasty
Hanging scroll, silk embroidery on satin foundation. 151,1 x 68 cm.



The Ts'un-su-t'ang ssu-hsiu lu by Chu Ch'i-ch'ien contains the following note about this piece: "This piece renders in embroidery the images of the deities of Happiness, Prosperity and Longevity. One child, wearing a golden cap, holds a halberd and a seal. A second child holds a "ju-i" sceptre, while yet another holds a branch of precious coral. The figures are all exquisite. The embroidery itself is skillful and even. This piece copies an unsigned, uninscribed work of the Ming period.



The motifs are rendered in satin-stitch embroidery using coarse and rather loose, fluffy silk floss. Only the eyebrows and eyes on the figures have been added with brush and color after the completion of the embroidery.



Collector's seal: One seal of Chu ch'i-ch'ien. The seal, which appears in the upper left corner, was first impressed on paper, then pasted to the blue satin ground.



Collection: National Palace Museum in Taipei. I owe only a reproduction of it bought at the Taipei Museum.



Bubble

Éloïse De Pelteau
July 16, 2002 - 12:37 pm
Bubble I loved to look at those two puzzles. How peaceful. Even then the Chinese wished for a long life. As for my neighbor, I often hear her speak Vientnamese to her sister and her mother. I never heard the children speak it but I assume they do. They are studious, well mannered and pleasant people.

Hello Papa John, long time no see.

Eloïse

robert b. iadeluca
July 16, 2002 - 02:08 pm
Welcome to our forum, Papa John! We are looking forward to further comments from you. I invite others here to click onto Papa John's name and get to know him and his interesting background a bit more.

I am amazed at the number of various contacts with Oriental people that you folks have had -- including, in some cases, integrating them into your family.

Robby

Justin
July 16, 2002 - 02:38 pm
The "average" western citizen is interested in little other than things which directly effect his or her welfare. What is important in the avarage western life, is who won the world cup, or who won the world series, or the latest playoff. The "average" person is not interested in international relations, much less interested in China. Afghanistan, well that's different. The Afghanis Taliban attacked the "average" citizen and threaten his or her welfare. But not China.

I think the question needs revision to make it relevant.

Malryn (Mal)
July 16, 2002 - 02:47 pm
Papa John's biography doesn't tell you that he and his wife, Cornelia, lived in Papua, New Guinea where they did missionary work.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
July 16, 2002 - 03:11 pm
Click onto this MAP of New Guinea. Allow time for loading.

Papa John:--Is New Guinea considered part of the Orient?

Robby

John Murphree
July 16, 2002 - 05:04 pm
ELOISE -- Yes, haven’t seen you for awhile except as I have lurked here and there.

ROBERT -- Thank you for the welcome. I guess Papua New Guinea is considered more as South Pacific Island rather than Orient. We spent five years there. It is a beautiful country and the people are very colorful.

J --- Papa John

patwest
July 16, 2002 - 06:36 pm
yes, it was very commercialized then, but there was no fee to walk the Wall.

Looking from on guard tower to another .. and some of the syeps were 16" tall.
http://web.infoave.net/~patwest1/china/grtwall98.jpg

My traveling Friend and I on the Great Wall.
http://web.infoave.net/~patwest1/china/bfgrtwall98.jpg

robert b. iadeluca
July 17, 2002 - 03:04 am
Pat! How nice to see you participating here on SofC! I either never knew or forgot that you had been to China. Those photos are excellent! Please continue to share your thoughts here.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 17, 2002 - 03:14 am
"Dry rice, macaroni, vermicelli, a few vegetables, and a little fish, formed the diet of the poor. The well-to-do added pork and chicken, and the rich indulged a passion for duck. The most pretentious of Peking dinners consisted of a hundred courses of duck. Cow's milk was rare and eggs were few and old, but the soy bean provided wholesome milk and cheese.

"Cooking was developed into a fine art, and made use of everything. Grasses and seaweeds were plucked and birds' nests ravished to make tasty soups. Dainty dishes were concocted out of sharks' fins and fish intestines, locusts and grasshoppers, grubs and silkworms, horses and mules, rats and water snakes, cats and dogs.

"The Chinese loved to eat. It was not unusual for a rich man's dinner to have forty courses, and to require three or four hours of gentlemanly absorption."

Let us not forget that we are talking about the menus of thousands of years ago. It seems to me that the poor followed what are now called good healthy eating habits and the rich over-ate and ate foods not nowadays considered healthy. And macaroni?

Robby

Bubble
July 17, 2002 - 05:54 am
Aren't the Chinese those who invented macaroni? Call it Chinese noodles and it sounds more familiar maybe.

Here we can buy different shapes and sizes of oriental pasta, usually from Thailand, Vietnam and the Philippines. Most are made from Rice flour.

Bubble

Malryn (Mal)
July 17, 2002 - 06:05 am
I don't know about macaroni unless Durant was using it as a generic term, but as far as I know noodles had their origin in China. Did the Chinese grow wheat at that time? I believe the noodles were first made from rice flour. I don't know when wonton noodles first came into being.

I watch some interesting shows on FoodTV, have it on as background at night when I work. Tony Bourdain travels all over the world and eats food most of us would not touch and tells us about it. Asians waste nothing when they cook.

I've seen Tony eat fried worms, birds nest soup, snake meat, grubs, etc, in Asian countries.

Birds nest soup is made of nests which are made from birds' mucous, and to me it looks like a mucilaginous mess. The snake meat he ate was Cobra cooked several different ways. When the heart was served, it was still beating. Those men who eat the hearts of snakes are supposed to derive great virility from it.

Many foods are eaten in Asian countries for special reasons, some for virility and fertility, for example. In China, noodles are said to bring longevity. Seaweed is used by many cultures, including our own. Agar is used in the U.S. as a thickening agent in cooking.

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
July 17, 2002 - 06:33 am
Click the link below to access an article about the history of tea in China.

Tea's Wonderful History

Bubble
July 17, 2002 - 07:08 am
Flan powder is made from algua. Bubble

Jere Pennell
July 17, 2002 - 07:24 am
Noodles were made from several sources and all had different names. They came from rice flour, wheat flour, buckwheat flour, durham flour and what is called egg noodles which were quite yellow but I have not seen any in the US which would require them to have a label exhibiting the contents. I am not cook enough to know the contents of egg noodles.

Jere

Bubble
July 17, 2002 - 07:32 am
Our egg noodles contain egg yokes. And may I be allowed to point that durum pasta is made of a special kind of wheat - durum - harder than the regular and less sticky when cooked, which makes it the favorite for all pasta. I buy only durum pasta, it gives the best results.
Bubble

Malryn (Mal)
July 17, 2002 - 07:33 am
Noodles are made from flour, water and salt. To make egg noodles, add eggs in proportion to the amount of flour used plus a couple of yolks to the ingredients and use less water.

Mal

John Murphree
July 17, 2002 - 11:40 am
I understand that Marco Polo brought back Chinese noodles which explains the pasta of Italy. Several years ago we were in Italy and in a supermarket I noticed the tremendous space given to pastas.

---- Papa John

robert b. iadeluca
July 17, 2002 - 02:23 pm
Let it never be said that this is a dry historical forum! As Durant says in the title, we have here a "Story!"

Robby

Justin
July 17, 2002 - 03:58 pm
I wonder if the tea trade was just another leg in the opium trade with China. Sea captains carried opium to China and may have carried tea to Britain on the return leg.

robert b. iadeluca
July 17, 2002 - 04:07 pm
"The peasants worked hard, but not fast. No complex machine hurried them, or racked their nerves with its noise, its danger and its speed. There were no weekends and no Sundays, but there were many holidays. Periodically some festival, like the Feast of the New Year, or the Feast of the Lanterns, gave the worker some rest from his toil, and brightened with myth and drama the duller seasons of the year.

"When the winter turned away its scowling face, and the snow-nourished earth softened under the spring rains, the peasants went out once more to plant their narrow fields, and sang with good cheer the hopeful songs that had come down to them from the immemorial past."

Do you suppose that those of us in the "rapid" 21st Century actually live in a dream? Do you suppose that contrary to what we think is reality, that day by day, week by week, month by month -- we think the same thoughts, do the same things, have the same hopes as our ancestors did millennia ago? And that day by day we continue with the same "cheer that has come down to us from the immemorial past?"

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
July 17, 2002 - 05:10 pm
I think that we do exactly that with a few modifications, Mind you Robby, all Durant is saying is that we do what man has done since the beginning of time. We carry our past on our shoulders sometimes like a heavy burden, sometimes like a friend to lean on.

One thing that is missing in our way of life, is Chinese tranquillity and peaceful reflection about life. It seems to me from that quote there was no mad rush to spend every minute of the day trying to make money in order to spend it on useless things that we think will finally satisfy us. I believe though that "and sang with good cheer the hopeful songs" was Durant's wish to finish this pastoral picture on a romantic note.

Eloïse

robert b. iadeluca
July 17, 2002 - 05:43 pm
Learn about the LANTERN FESTIVAL in Ancient China.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 18, 2002 - 03:11 am
"As far back as we can delve into Chinese history, we find busy handicrafts in the home and thriving trade in the towns. The basic industries were the weaving of textiles and the breeding of worms for the secretion of silk. Both were carried on by women in or near their cottages. Silk-weaving was a very ancient art, whose beginnings in China went back to the second millennium before Christ.

"The Chinese fed the worms on fresh-cut mulberry leaves, with startling results. On this diet a pound of (700,000) worms increased in weight to 9.500 pounds in forty-two days. The adult worms were then placed in little tents of straw, around which they wove their cocoons by emitting silk. The cocoons were dropped in hot water, the silk came away from its shell, was treatd and woven, and was skillfully turned into a great variety of rich clothing, tapestries, embroideries and brocades for the upper classes of the world. The raisers and weavers of silk wore cotton.

"Even in the centuries before Christ, this domestic industry had been supplemented with shops in the towns. As far back as 300 B.C., there had been an urban proleteriat, organizd with its masters into industrial guilds. The growth of this shop industry filled the towns with a busy population, making the China of Kublai Khan quite the equal, industrially, of eighteenth-century Europe."

Robby

Bubble
July 18, 2002 - 04:15 am


Robby I can see you never unravelled a silk cocoon! It does not come away from it shell, but you have to find the end and just pull evenly like you would unravel a knitted sweater. This very thin thread we used to put round and round a piece of stiff cardboard until we got to the end and threw away the dead butterfly in the middle.



The cocoon is put into boiling water to kill the butterfly before it can make its way out by cutting a hole through the layers of silk. The whole cocoon is just one long thread.



The mulberry tree not only helped to the culture of the worms, it also gave plentiful and delicious fruit. We have one tree here in our garden and this year it gave a crop of more than 50 kg. I could not stop eating.

Bubble
July 18, 2002 - 04:25 am


I read about the lantern festival and was surprised by the similitude. In August '53 I was in a children's camp in the Valais in Switzerland in a tiny village on the mountains. They were preparing for the national day celebration. We were given colored cellophane paper, bristol, glue, and all the material needed, plus a broomstick. I learned then to make a cut-out lantern of many colors. it was attached to the stick with a candle held in the middle.



At night we joined the parade of all the villagers and walked to a pasture way up where the cows were spending their days until the winter. There was music, yoddling and merriment while sweet things were passed around.



This is one of my fondest memories of that bleak period in a german-speaking place and me not understanding one single word! Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
July 18, 2002 - 05:10 am
Bubble:--That info about the silk worm was the words of Durant, not mine. Anything you see in italics and in quotes are his words.

Your comments about the Lantern revived a memory in me. I was in the Army of Occupation in Brest, Germany and the children went around singing in German "Lantern, Lantern, sun, moon, and stars." I used to be able to sing the whole verse in German -- taught to me by a German girl (even if we weren't supposed to "fraternize!"

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
July 18, 2002 - 05:36 am

"Legend has it that once there lived a father with his daughter, they had a magic horse, which could not only fly in the sky but also understand human language. One day, the father went out on business and did not come back for quite some time. The daughter made him a promise: If the horse could find her father, she would marry him. Finally her father came back with the horse, but he was shocked at his daughter's promise.



"Unwilling to let his daughter marry a horse, he killed the innocent horse. And then miracle happened! The horse's skin carried the girl flying away. They flew and flew, at last, they stopped on a tree, and the moment the girl touched the tree, she turned into a silkworm. Everyday, she spit long and thin silks. The silks just represented her feeling of missing him."

Malryn (Mal)
July 18, 2002 - 05:57 am
Click the link below for information about and a few pictures of ancient Chinese silk fabrics.

Silk Fabrics

Malryn (Mal)
July 18, 2002 - 06:07 am
CLICK HERE to see the article the following quote came from.


"Legends attributed the initial discovery and use of silk to Huangdi and his wife Leizu, at the very source of Chinese civilization. To study the history of sericulture and textiles, there is an abundance of archaeological evidence. The silkworm appeared in Neolithic sculptures and on vessels as a decorative motif. A silk cocoon cut in half by a sharp knife was found in 1926 in Xiyingcun, Xia county, Shanxi province, dating back to 5,600-6000 years ago, and the species of the silkworm is bombyx mori, the domesticated silkworm. Parts of a primitive loom were found from sites in Hemudu, Zhejiang province, about 4,900 BC and in Liangzhu cultures. Parts of the machine for reeling silk were found in a Neolithic site at Qianshanyang in Zhejiang province, dating about 2,750 BC, where the earliest fragments of silk were also found, making the site a landmark of silk production in the south. The earliest finds in the north were made in a Yangshao site at Qingtaicun, Rongyang county, Henan province with silk fabric wrappings around the body of a child, dating about 3,500 BC. It is certain that around 5,000 years ago, silk was used to produce garments."

Bubble
July 18, 2002 - 06:55 am
Such variety of silk weaving. Incredible. I remember working in my parent store and fingering the bolts of silk material. There was "natural silk" and "wild silk". The wild silk had all kinds of irregularities in the thread and was less shiny than the other. It was in much demand.
Bubble

Bubble
July 18, 2002 - 08:18 am
From the newsroom of the SF Weekly, San Francisco, California, Wednesday, July 17, 2002 .....

Quiet Riot

A silent opera? A company of hearing-impaired actors and the S.F. Mime Troupe prove it can be done

BY KAREN MACKLIN

Combining opera with silent theater may seem counterintuitive, but Theatre of the Silence , a radical troupe from Hong Kong, provides sound evidence that body language can tell a story just as well as -- if not better than -- words. Founded by several hearing-impaired actors, the group, in collaboration with the S.F. Mime Troupe, is mounting an adaptation of a 17th-century K'unshan opera, 15 Strings of Cash, which includes few words to speak of. A political drama based on a 13th-century fairy tale, the original opera describes an innocent couple falsely convicted of a murder through a faulty political system in ancient China. An honest magistrate makes it his mission to uncover the real murderer, thus saving the couple from an unfortunate demise. The Mime Troupe's Joan Holden adapted the opera to take place in the 1920s, presenting it as a detective story told solely through miming, sign language, and overhead supertitles (to be flashed on an electronic sign at only the most necessary intervals).

Just because the production is accessible to the deaf doesn't make it irrelevant to the hearing. Director Dan Chumley (also of the Mime Troupe) combines the silent-film style of Charlie Chaplin with the highly physical gesture of commedia dell'arte to create a dynamic fusion that feels simultaneously new and ancient. The production isn't totally soundless, either; it has a musical score, conceived by Lee Chi-man and based on the opera's original tunes. The main concept is universality -- the idea that theater is as important to the deaf as it is to the hearing, as relevant to Hong Kong as it is to the U.S., and as timely now as it was hundreds of years ago. If a picture is worth a thousand words, this collaborative project is one hell of a conversation.

© 2002 New Times All rights reserved.

robert b. iadeluca
July 18, 2002 - 10:16 pm
"The guilds passed their own laws and administered them fairly. They made strikes infrequent by arbitrating the disputes of employers and employees through mediation boards representing each side equally. They served in general as a self-governing and self-disciplining organization for the industry. They provided an admirable escape from the modern dilemma between laissez-faire and the servile state.

"These guilds were formed not only by merchants, manufactuers and their workmen, but by such less exalted trades as barbers, coolies and cooks. Even the beggars were united in a brotherhood that subjected its members to strict laws. A small minority of town laborers were slaves, engaged for the most part in domestic service, and usually bonded to their masters for a period of years, or for life.

"In times of famine girls and orphans were exposed for sale at the price of a few 'cash,' and a father might at any time sell his daughters as bondservants. Such slavery, however, never reached the proportions that it attained in Greece, and Rome. The majority of the workers were free agents or members of guilds, and the majority of the peasants owned their land, and governed themselves in village communities largely independent of national control."

Strikes? Arbitration? Mediation boards? Self-governing communities? Are we indeed talking about a millennia ago?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
July 19, 2002 - 07:39 am
Below is a link to a short article about ancient Chinese pharmacy which mentions native Chinese drug guilds.
Ancient Chinese Pharmacy

Malryn (Mal)
July 19, 2002 - 07:51 am
The rest of this article can be found HERE.
"Guilds. Guilds are to be found in every part of China, some of them dating back for thousands of years. They are divided primarily into three classes, the trade unions, clubs of fellow provincials in an alien city, and associations of merchants for the regulation of trade: the last is more rarely found than the others, while the trade guilds predate the rest by hundreds of years. All craftsmen become members of the guild of their craft: in certain cities the craft is in the hands of aliens who are not allowed to divulge its secrets to the natives. The administration is carried out by a manager, a committee, and a paid secretary who arranges all legal defence, apportions grants for charity, and approaches officials. The revenue is obtained by means of a regular subscription according to the financial standing of the person, and taxes and fmes of the members. In addition members may be called upon for extraordinary subscriptions for funeral or doctors' expenses. Members who are caught stealing or in any shady practices are fined heavily and may be expelled or even in severe cases executed. The basic idea of Chinese guilds is to promote general wellbeing among the members and to protect them as far as possible in everything. The four most famous guilds are the Canton Guild, the Shansi Guild, the Shantung Guild, and the Ningpo Guild."

Justin
July 19, 2002 - 02:12 pm
I wonder if "guild" is an English translation for "tong".

robert b. iadeluca
July 20, 2002 - 04:22 am
Durant continues (see GREEN quotes above):

"Gunpowder appeared under the T'angs, but was very sensibly restricted to fireworks. Not until the Sung Dynasty (1161 A.D.) was it formed into hand-grenades and employed in war. The Arabs became acquainted with saltpetre -- the main constituent of gunpowder - in the course of their trade with China, and called it 'Chinese snow.' They brought the secret of gunpowder westward, the Saracens turned it to military use, and Roger Bacon, the first European to mention it, may have learned of it through his study of Arab lore or his acquaintance with the central Asiatic traveler, Dr. Rubruquis.

"If we may believe Chinese historians, the compass was invented by the Duke of Chou in the reign of the Empeor Cheng Wang (1115-1078 B.C.) to guide certain foreign ambassadors back to their home lands. The Duke, we are told, presented the embassy with five chariots each equipped with a 'south-pointing needle.' Very probably the magnetic properties of the lodestone were known to ancient China, but the use of it was confined to orienting temples.

"The oldest mention of the needle as useful for mariners occurs in a work of the early twelfth century, which ascribes this use of it to foreign -- probably Arab -- navigators plying between Sumatra and Canton. About 1190 we find the first known European notice of the compass in a poem by Guyot de Provins."

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
July 20, 2002 - 09:37 am
Interesting to read about the origins of gunpowder. I wonder what they use now in guns? Shows how ignorant I am. But the needle was surely used before the 12th century? Why mention the first use of the needle by mariners? I don't understand, I would think that the needle was invented centuries before that and it would be normal that mariners would use it to make sails.

Malryn (Mal)
July 20, 2002 - 10:21 am
Compass needle, Eloise.
Click the link below to see an Ancient Chinese compass at the Smith College Museum.

CHINESE COMPASS

Éloïse De Pelteau
July 20, 2002 - 10:40 am
I knew there was something that I didn't get Mal. Thanks.

Justin
July 20, 2002 - 02:35 pm
If the south pointing needle came about in the 12th century BCE and the arabs also had the device at an early date, why not Europe until the early 16th century CE. That's a lapse of 2500 years. Columbus sailed with out benefit of south pointer. The device could have come to europe via the crusades but there does not seem to be any indication of that happening. Gun powder had no difficulty making the trip to europe. Why not the compass?

Bubble
July 21, 2002 - 01:45 am
I always thought the compass pointed North??? Why did I get that wrong? Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
July 21, 2002 - 03:47 am
Which end of the needle are you referring to?

Robby

Bubble
July 21, 2002 - 04:49 am
The pointed one... not the one with the hole for threading.

Éloïse De Pelteau
July 21, 2002 - 05:00 am
Are we talking about two different things here? In my French/English dictionary a 'boussole' is a 'compass'.

Bubble
July 21, 2002 - 05:06 am
It is a boussole, Eloise. Not a French compas for geometry lessons.



In Africa we used a home made boussole, made from a jar of water and a sewing needle rubbed between fingers for a few seconds so that it got coated oily and floated easily on the water. It always pointed North.
Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
July 21, 2002 - 05:18 am
Amazing what we all learn here in this story of "civilization." In school I did that experiment too. We didn't rub the needle between our fingers. If we laid it very gently on the water, it didn't need oil. We stroked it with a magnet and then floated it on water. If we stroked it in one direction, the point of the needle pointed North. If we stroked it in the opposite direction, the eye of the needle pointed North.

Compass needles don't have eyes. They have blunt points at each end. So my question remains, Bubble. Which end of the compass needle are you referring to? Doesn't one end point South?

Robby

Bubble
July 21, 2002 - 05:33 am
Then let me answer in a different way. Which attracts the needle end, the North or the South? I was taught it was the NOrth Pole that had a stronger magnetic deposit. That is why the saying goes that a compass will never deviate from the North. Even on maps, the 'rose des vents' (how do you translate that?) always shows what direction is North. I have never seen it showing South or anything else!
Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
July 21, 2002 - 06:02 am
Did the Ancient Chinese know there was a "north" pole? How did they know whether the needle was pointing north or south?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
July 21, 2002 - 06:24 am
Below is a quote from the Smith College Museum of Ancient Inventions page which I posted yesterday. Note what it says about constellations.
"Earliest records show a spoon shaped compass made of lodestone or magnetite ore, referred to as a 'South-pointer' dating back to sometime during the Han Dynasty (2nd century BCE to 2nd century CE). The spoon-shaped instrument was placed on a cast bronze plate called a 'heaven-plate' or diviner's board that had the eight trigrams (Pa Gua) of the I Ching, as well as the 24 directions (based on the constellations), and the 28 lunar mansions (based on the constellations dividing the Equator) . Often, the Big Dipper (Great Bear) was drawn within the center disc. The square symbolized earth and the circular disc symbolized heaven. Upon these were inscribed the azimuthal points relating to the constellations. Its primary use was that of geomancy (prognostication) to determine the best location and time for such things as burials. In a culture that placed extreme importance on reverence for ancestors, this remained an important tool well into the 19th century. Even in modern times there are those who use this divination concepts of Feng Shui (literally, of wind and water) for locating buildings or fortuitous times and locations for almost any enterprise. There is a story that the first Chin emperor used the divining board and compass in court to affirm his right to the throne. Primarily, the compass was used for geomancy for a long time before it was used for navigation.



Ancient Chinese alchemists realized that the magnetite ore would point towards a magnetic north. Their understanding was not total, since they thought that there were north pointers and south pointers. 'The lodestone follows a maternal principle. The needle is struck out from the iron (originally a stone) and the nature of mother and son is that each influences the other, and they communicate together. The nature of the needle is to return to its original completeness. As its body is very light and straight, it must indicate straight lines. It responds to the chhi by orientation, being central to the earth and deviating in various directions. To the south it points to the Hsuan-Yuan constellation, hence to the hsiu Hsing and therefore to the hsiu Hsu in the north, along the axis Ting-Kuei. The yearly differences follow the elliptic, and all such phenomena can be understood.' (from Master Kuan's Geomantic Instructor), 8th century CE."

robert b. iadeluca
July 21, 2002 - 06:37 am
The Chinese desire for "original completeness" and importance of "lines", as shown in Mal's link, makes one think of acupuncture, a Chinese medical approach, which we will be discussing in a day or two. Please note the GREEN quotes above.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 21, 2002 - 12:58 pm
"We cannot speak of the Chinese as an industrially inventive people. They were inventive in art, developing their own forms, and reaching a degree of sensitive perfection not surpassed in any other place or time. Before 1912 they were content with ancient economic ways, and had a perhaps prophetic scorn of labor-saving devices that hectically accelerate the pace of human toil and throw half the population out of work in order to enrich the rest.

"They were among the first to use coal for fuel, and mined it in small quantities as early as 122 B.C. but they developed no mechanisms to ease the slavery of mining, and left for the most part unexplored the mineral resources of their soil.

"Though they knew how to make glass, they were satisfied to import it from the West. They made no watches or clocks or screws, and only the coarsest nails. Through the two thousand years that intervened between the rise of the Han and fall of the Manchus, industrial life remained substantially the same in China -- as it remained substantially the same in Europe from Pericles to the Industrial Revolution.

"In like manner China preferred the quiet and mannerly rule of tradition and scholarship to the exciting and disturbing growth of science and plutocracy. Of all the great civilizations, it has been the poorest in contributions to the material technique of life."

Is the Chinese turtle slowly outpacing the hare of the West?

Robby

Justin
July 21, 2002 - 01:09 pm
South pointers may well be south pointers based on magnetic north directional flow. If the needle is an arrow the flow of magnetic properties may well be toward the nock rather than the head. The nock points north and the head points south. The direction of flow is the determining characteristic and not the shape of the needle or the arrow. Once the needle is magnetized it orients itself along the North-South axis and that is unrelated to the shape of the needle or the arrow.

Jere Pennell
July 21, 2002 - 02:58 pm
I do not wish to increase the confusion but please keep in mind the location of the compass in relationship to the equator. There is a northern hemisphere and a southern hemisphere and the needles point in different directions and water swirls in a different direction depending on the location of the individual.

Once you get that sorted out in your mind then consider the needle will point in a different direction (deviation) in China compared to North America or in Sea Bubbles place.

Jere

robert b. iadeluca
July 21, 2002 - 03:53 pm
If no one is interested in Post 88, we will move onward.

"China produced excellent textbooks of agriculture and sericulture two centuries before Christ, and excelled in treatises on Geography. Its centenarian mathematician, Chang Ts'ang (d.152 B.C.), left behind him a work on algebra and geometry, containing the first known mention of a negative quantity.

"Tsu Ch'ung-chih calculated the correct value of x to six decimal places, improved the magnet or "south-pointing vehicle," and is vaguely recorded to have experimented with a self-moving vessel.

"Chang Heng invented a seismograph in 132 A.D., but for the most part Chinese physics lost itself in the occultism of feng shui and the metaphysics of the yang and the yin. Chinese mathematicians apparently derived algebra from India, but developed geometry for themselves out of their need for measurng the land.

"The astronomers of Confucius' time correctly calculated eclipses, and laid the bases of the Chinese calendar -- twelve hours a day, and twelve months each beginning with the new moon. An extra month was added periodically to bring this lunar calendar in accord with the seasons and the sun. Life on earth was lived in harmony with life in the sky. The festivals of the year were regulated by sun and moon. The moral order of society itself was based upon the regularity of the planets and the stars."

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
July 21, 2002 - 06:46 pm
Post 88 - "and had a perhaps prophetic scorn of labor-saving devices that hectically accelerate the pace of human toil and throw half the population out of work in order to enrich the rest."

If the Chinese scorned labor-saving devices then, it seems to me that they are making up for lost time adopting them with a flurry now. Are they distancing themselves from the philosophy of their ancestors? What caused that reversing of ideas I wonder. Could it be that after Communism, a market economy has to develop? Is it a normal process of evolution?

Bubble
July 22, 2002 - 03:51 am
Osaka, Shanghai, Israel, Texas seem to be all on the Northern Hemisphere and the same distance from the Equator. Would they still be different Jere?



The Chinese move doggedly forward. By not using labor saving devices they were ensuring no one stayed idle? Free to think about being discontent? They succeed so well in business ventures because they are so hard working and perseverant, so much so thta it seems a racial characteristic. Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
July 22, 2002 - 04:23 am
Eloise asks:--"Could it be that after Communism, a market economy has to develop? Is it a normal process of evolution?"

Any thoughts by others here on that?

And allied with that idea, Bubble says:--

"They succeed so well in business ventures because they are so hard working and perseverant, so much so that it seems a racial characteristic."

Can we put those two together? Is there such a thing as a racial characteristic which includes perseverance and hard work? Does this characteristic (if it exists) naturally lead toward a market economy?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 22, 2002 - 04:49 am
Durant continues:--

"Medicine had its beginnings before recorded history, and produced great physicians long before Hippocrates. Already under the Chous the state held yearly examinations for admission to medical practice, and fixed the salaries of the successful applicants according to their showing in the tests.

"In the fourth century before Christ a Chinese governor ordered a careful dissection and anatomical study of forty beheaded criminals, but the results were lost in theoretical discussion, and dissection stopped. Chang chung-ning, in the second century, wrote treatises on dietetics and fevers, which remained standard texts for a thousand years.

"In the third century Hua To wrote a volume on surgery, and made operations popular by inventing a wine which produced a general anesthesia. It is one of the stupidities of history that the formula for mixing this drink has been lost. About 300 A.D. Wang Shu-ho wrote a celebrated treatise on the pulse.

"Toward the beginning of the sixth century T'ao Hung-ching composed an extensive description of the 730 drugs used in Chinese medicine. A hundred years later Ch-ao Yuan-fang wrote a classic on the diseases of women and children.

"Medical encyclopedias were frequent under the T'angs, and specialist monographs under the Sungs. A medical college was established in the Sung Dynasty, but most medical education was through apprenticeship. Drugs were abundant and various. One store, three centuries ago, sold a thousand dollars worth every day.

"Diagnosis was pedantically detailed. Ten thousand varieties of fever were described, and twenty-four conditions of the pulse were distinguished. Inoculation -- not vaccination -- was used, probably in imitation of India, in the treatment of small-pox. Mercury was administered for syphillis. This disease seems to have appeared in China in the later years of the Ming dynasty -- to have run wild through the population, and to have left behind its course a comparative immunity to its more serious effects.

"Public sanitation, preventive medicine, hygiene and surgery made little progress in China. Sewage and drainage systems were primitive, or hardly existed. Some towns failed to solve the primary obligations of an organized society -- to secure good water, and to dispose of waste."

I ask that you all read this posting carefully, perhaps comparing it with the medical system of our day. Any thoughts roaming through your mind? Salaries of physicans fixed based upon how well they pass their yearly exams? Dissection and anatomical study of the heads of criminals, perhaps comparing this with the study of DNA of criminals? Anesthetics existing almost two thousand years ago? A treatise on the pulse indicating a knowledge of the importance of the cardio-vascular system. Emphasis on the illnesses of women and children already being considered important. And yet -- no connection apparent to them between hygiene and disease.

Robby

Bubble
July 22, 2002 - 05:08 am
Maybe they needed the microscope to get a thought of germs and viruses. It sounds similar to the other inventions: they did not make full use of their knowledge.



The Chinese seemed to be a people ready to follow the rules and law, behaving with rectitude for the most of the time. Their way is so different from the Mediterranean individualism that always believes laws are for others and tries to get personnal benefits all the time.



I think much observations have been lost in time, more than what was preserved such as herbal remedies, acupuncture or the different types of massages. Bubble

Malryn (Mal)
July 22, 2002 - 07:30 am
Durant tells us that "the Chinese are natural merchants, and work many hours at the business of bargaining." Would not this trait lead to a market economy?

Below is a link to a short comparison between the Western and Eastern attitudes about the body and how they relate to medicine.

Western and Eastern medicine

Jere Pennell
July 22, 2002 - 07:33 am
If you went North from each of those places you would be seeing different things until you put skiis or snow shoes on. The maps would be different and even the sky appears different at night.

I do not think that there is a racial characteristic for hard work or perserverance but there are cultural characteristics. Look at the Chinese, Japanese, and the people in Israel, for example.

Jere

Malryn (Mal)
July 22, 2002 - 07:43 am
Qi has been very important in the treatment of the human body in China since Ancient times. I've read that there is no English translation for Qi. It is a form of energy for the body just as Feng Shui (wind-water) is energy for the environment.

I copied what is below from a web page which has such a light font that it is difficult to read.
"The Chinese have a unique system of categorizing illnesses that is widely divergent from its Western counterpart. The philosophy behind Chinese medicine is that man lives between heaven and earth, and comprises a miniature universe in himself. The material of which living things are made is considered to belong to the "yin", or female, passive, receding aspect of nature. The life functions of living things, on the other hand, are considered to belong to the "yang", or masculine, active, advancing aspect. The functions of living beings are described in terms of the following five centers of the body: 1."heart" or "mind" (hsin); this refers to the "command center" of the body, which manifests itself as consciousness and intelligence; 2."lungs" or "respiratory system" (fei); this system regulates various intrinsic functions of the body, and maintains cybernetic balance; 3."liver" (kan); this term includes the limbs and trunk, the mechanism for emotional response to the external environment, and the action of organs; 4."spleen" (p'i); this organ system regulates the distribution of nutrition throughout the body, and the metabolism, bringing strength and vigor to the physical body; and 5."kidneys" (shen); this refers to the system for regulating the storage of nutrition and the use of energy; the human life force depends on this system. This theory is used to describe the system of body functions, and as a whole is referred to as the "latent phenomena" ( ts'ang hsiang).





"The passage of the seasons and changes in the weather can have an influence on the human body. Those having the most pronounced effect are wind (feng), cold (han), heat (shu), moisture (shih), dryness (tsao), and internal heat (huo "fire"). Excessive or extraordinary changes in the weather harm the body, and are referred to as the "six external disease-causing factors" (liu yin). On the other hand, if mood changes within the individual, such as happiness(hsi), anger(nu), worry(yu), pensiveness(szu), grief(pei), fear(k'ung), and surprise(ching) are too extreme, they will also harm the health. These emotions are called the "seven emotions"(ch'i ch'ing). In Chinese medicine, the six external disease-causing factors, interacting with the seven emotions, form the theoretical foundation of disease pathology. These theoretical models, coupled with the "theory of latent phenomena," are used to analyze the patient's constitution and his illness, and diagnose the exact nature of his overall physical and psychological loss of balance. Based on this analysis, the doctor can prescribe a method to correct the imbalance. The object of Chinese medicine is the person, not just the illness. In Chinese medical thinking, illness is only one manifestation of an imbalance that exists in the entire person.



"According to Chinese legend, Shen Nung, the Chinese father of agriculture and leader of an ancient clan, took it upon himself to test, one by one, hundreds of different plants to discover their nutritional and medicinal properties. Many of these turned out to be poisonous to humans. Over the millennia, Chinese have used themselves as guinea pigs in this same way to continue testing plants for their properties of inducing cold(han), heat(jeh), warmth(wen), and coolness(liang). They classified the medicinal effects of the plants on the various parts of the body, then tested them to determine their toxicity, what dosages would be lethal, and so forth."

Bubble
July 22, 2002 - 10:54 am
Very interesting, Mal. What a different way of analysing illnesses. For the Chinese man is really part of a whole in the universe. An illness or unbalance is taken care of by treating the whole, not just the offending organ. It makes sense.

Malryn (Mal)
July 22, 2002 - 01:13 pm
It wasn't so long ago as time goes, Bubble, that doctors in New England were interested in the whole of you. Before all these diagnostic tests came into being and doctors had to rely on their knowledge and instinct, they'd ask all kinds of questions about "how you feel".

Instead of zeroing in on one specific site in the body, they looked at people as if they were a whole. I remember old Dr. Ferrin in my hometown who asked me if I had some problems in school, how things were going at home, if I could see the writing on the blackboard, what foods I'd been eating and other such questions before he'd give me any kind of medication or treatment for the headaches I'd been having.

Or the orthopedist who paid attention to how one muscle worked with another in my back and leg when I went for muscle exams because of polio before he recommended surgery.

What's happened to Western medicine? It's cut us up into bits and pieces of specialization. The foot bone isn't connected to the leg bone any more. The pain in my chest bears no relation to the recent loss of a relative or a boyfriend or girlfriend. What's in my head has nothing to do with how I react to an infection or other physical pains and discomforts I might have. My home and outer environment have nothing to do with my health any more. There are comments about my diet, but as an ordinary individual I'm not given any information about why that has anything to do with the swelling of my ankles or the depression I might feel.

The Chinese were right. We are one-mind-one-body, and we should be treated as a whole instead of a kind of marionette with specialized, independent, specific parts.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
July 22, 2002 - 05:15 pm
Durant moves on (see GREEN quotes above) to the next section:--

"History has known no people more superstitious, and none more sceptical -- no people more devoted to piety, and none more rationalistic and secular -- no nation so free from clerical domination -- and none but the Hindus so blessed and cursed with gods. How shall we explain these contradictions, except by ascribing to the philosophers of China a degree of influence unparalled in history, and at the same time recognizing in the poverty of China an inexhaustible fountain of hopeful fantasy?

"The religion of the primitive inhabitans was not unlike the faith of nature peoples generally -- an animistic fear and worship of spirits lurking anywhere -- a poetic reverence for the impressive forms and reproductive powers of the earth -- and an awed adoration of a heaven whose energizing sunlight and fertilizing rains were part of the mystic rapport between terrestrial life and the secret forces of the sky. Wind and thunder, trees and mountains, dragons and snakes were worshiped, but the greater festivals celebrated above all the miracle of growth. In the Spring girls and young men danced and mated in the fields to give example of fertility to mother earth.

"Kings and priests were in those days near allied. The early monarchs of China were statesmen-saints whose heroic deeds were always prefaced with prayers, and aided by the gods."

Is this religion?

Robby

Jere Pennell
July 22, 2002 - 07:18 pm
Why not?

Jere

Faithr
July 22, 2002 - 08:44 pm
it sounds like religion to me. I think of Druids in Europe and England. I think of the Aztec's Sun Worship and Fertility Gods too. And all the American Native peoples for that matter. These things are the basis for all religion, and religion begins with the awe and wonder at the natural forces that really rule this planet then progress's to the magic then the mystical with all the trappings of "real" religion. Of course, in MHO. fr

Justin
July 22, 2002 - 11:26 pm
One can make a case on both sides of this question of religion. Religion involves commitment to a god and behavior that corresponds to divine instruction.The Chinese may have been impressed with the significance of Growth in life and celebrated the process by youthful intercourse in the fields in the hope that fertility might be catching like a bad cold but there is no divine instruction here that must be followed nor is there any binding commitment to a god of growth.

Religion may also be seen as a practice of religious beliefs and in this sense one may see the practice of sexual intercourse in the hope that the act will inspire nature to respond in like measure as a religious practice. One must stretch to make the connection but it can be made, none the less.

Religion involves an awareness of a supreme being. I think the Chinese have at times thought of Confucius as a supreme person and perhaps even god-like but not as a god.

Finally, religion can be seen as a system of rules and in this sense, the rules of behavior precribed by confucius may well qualify as those of a religion.

One may call the practices of the Chinese a religion, but the connection is a tenuous one and one must stretch to reach such a conclusion.

Justin
July 22, 2002 - 11:51 pm
Mal; You touched at the heart of a market economy. It is ability and the freedom to arrive at a mutually agreeable price that makes a market economy. Communism is far in the future and not very relevant in this context. The Chinese, today, have passed well beyond Communism and have adopted a form of dictatorial government unrelated to government ownership of the means of production. Price supports, subsidies, and tariffs encourage some industries but in the main, I think, people are generally able to bargain for goods and services. Someone who is closer to the Chinese economy than I am can probably say more about current business practices.

Justin
July 23, 2002 - 12:15 am
Western medicine can learn much from the accumlated knowledge of Shen None. Our drug industry, in it's zeal to find chemical cures, may have overlooked simpler and less expensive herbal remedies from the Chinese pharmacopeia. We western consumers on the other hand are hesitant to visit a Chinese pharmacist when we hurt even though they might be able to supply a quicker and less expensive remedy than the precription we bear.

There is much good in what the Chinese advocate as the right approach to treating illness. The whole person may be involved in a disease. But at the same time I don't want some one looking at my entire countenance for clues when I have diabetes and need some one to look at my blood. Specialists have their place as do internists.

robert b. iadeluca
July 23, 2002 - 02:33 am
"In this primitive theology heaven and earth were bound together as two halves of a great cosmic unity, and were related very much as man and woman, lord and vassal, yang and yin. The order of the heavens and the moral behavior of mankind were kindred processes, parts of a universal and necessary rhythm called Tao -- the heavenly way. Morality, like the law of the stars, was the cooperation of the part with the whole. The Supreme God was this mighty heaven itself -- this divine orderliness, that engulfed both men and things, dictating the right relationship of children to parents, of wives to husbands, of vassals to lords, of lords to the emperor, and of the emperor to God.

"It was a confused but noble conception, hovering between personality when the people prayed to T'ien -- heaven as a deity -- and impersonality when the philsophers spoke of T'ien as the just and beneficient, but hardly human or personal, sum of all those forces tht ruled the sky, the earth, and men.

"Gradually the personal conception of 'Heaven' was confined to the masses of the people, and the impersonal conception was accepted by the educated classes and in the official religion of the state."

Here, again, as in previous Civilizations if I remember correctly, the masses prayed to the personal conceptions and the educated classes accepted the impersonal conceptions.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 23, 2002 - 04:15 am
"Mohammedanism and Christianity offered the average Chinese a heaven that Buddhism had already promised, but what he really wanted was a guarantee of happiness here. Most of the fifteen million Chinese Moslems are not really Chinese, but people of foreign origin or parentage.

"Christianity entered China with the Nestorians about 636 A.D. The Emperor Tai Tsung gave it a sympathetic hearing, and protected its preachers from persecution. In 781 the Nestorians of China raised a monument on which they recorded their appreciation of this enlghtened tolerance, and their hope that Christianity would soon win the whole land. Since then Jesuit missionaries with heroic zeal and lofty learning, and Protestant missionaries backed with great American fortunes, have labored to realize the hope of the Nestorians.

"Today thee are three million Christians in China. One per cent of the population has been converted in a thousand years."

The Ancient Chinese wanted happiness "here." Is this what most people want?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
July 23, 2002 - 04:33 am
It seems to me that most people want happiness here and hereafter. That's a little like having your cake and eating it, too, in my opinion. T'ien, the sum of all those forces tht ruled the sky, the earth, and men -- sounds like Nature to me.

Wasn't Pearl Buck's father a Christian missionary in China?

Mal

Bubble
July 23, 2002 - 05:13 am
Yes Pearl Buck was the daughter of missionaries. What I liked in her books is how she painted the different generations living together in the same household, the little everyday conflicts, the difficult life of peasants very much dependent on the weather and natures forces. It was so different from what I knew. Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
July 23, 2002 - 05:50 am
Durant continues on to the next section (see the new GREEN quotes above):--

"The family was the great vehicle of ethical heritage. From parents to children the moral code was handed down across the generations, and became the invisible government of Chinese society -- a code so stable and strong that that society maintained its order and discipline through nearly all the vicissitudes of the unsteady state.

"Said Voltaire: 'What the Chinese best know, cultivate the most, and have brought to the greatest perfection, is morality.' Confucius had said: 'By building the house on a sound foundation, the world is made secure.'"

The hand that rocks the cradle rules the world?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
July 23, 2002 - 06:59 am
It's a little late, but the link below takes you to an interesting page with good illustrations.

Chinese Inventions

Malryn (Mal)
July 23, 2002 - 07:03 am

FAMILIES. DAILY LIFE IN ANCIENT CHINA

Éloïse De Pelteau
July 23, 2002 - 07:11 am
No Robby, she teaches her sons what he must learn in order to become the ruler of his kingdom and her daughters to accept that she will always play second fiddle to the man who will rule the world.

Malryn (Mal)
July 23, 2002 - 07:30 am
Then there's just one thing to do. CHANGE THE SYSTEM !

I had no idea what my daughter was learning from me when I was raising her, and it wasn't what I thought I was teaching her. I played the conventional rôle of housewife and mother, but also painted pictures, wrote poetry and short stories, played the piano and sang, composed music, read a lot, took classes in French, Russian and drawing, wrote musical shows which were produced locally, worked for political candidates not in the party my husband adhered to -- not out of spite, either!, gave talks to kids in school (not just about music and art), did all kinds of untypical things for that time.

My daughter learned from example, and she's not typical, either. A fine artist, she's also a self-taught computer whiz, and can wield a chain saw and drive a backhoe just as adeptly as a man. She gave me a few more gray hairs when I watched her maneuver that backhoe and do carpentry when people (men) were building this apartment addition to her house I live in. I'd probably do that, too, if there weren't a few physical limitations my daughter doesn't have. I was never afraid to try anything new. That's what my daughter inherited, I guess.

Mal

Justin
July 24, 2002 - 12:57 am
IMO people want happiness HERE, but few people think they are happy HERE so many accept the premise that happiness is posible in the HEREafter. However, folks generally tend to forget they are human and therefore will just naturally do things that St Peter won't like. There are only two ways to get the happiness ticket punched. One is by struggling to accomplish things that you consider worthwhile and to be content with the joy that activity brings. The other way is by making it posible for other people to find the joy of accomplishment. There is no benefit in looking elsewhere for happiness. It is HERE in this life and it is HERE one must seek it.

robert b. iadeluca
July 24, 2002 - 03:40 am
As Durant enters his conclusion about China, he talks to us about

REVOLUTION AND RENEWAL

and you will see in the new GREEN quotes and the sub-heading just above them terms which are very familiar to you from your school days.

"A Europe vitalized and rejuvenated by the discovery of mechanical power and its application to ever-multiplying machinery, found itself capable of producing goods more cheaply than any nation or continent that still relied on handicrafts. It was unable to dispose of all these machine products to its own population because it paid its workers somewhat less than the full value of their labor. It was forced to seek foreign markets for the surplus, and was driven by imperialist necessity to conquer the world.

"Under the compulsions of invention and circumstance the nineteenth century became a world-wide drama of conflict between the old, mature and fatigued civilizations of handicraft Asia, and the young and invigorated civilizations of industrial Europe.

"The Commercial Revolution of Columbus' time cleared the routes and prepared the way for the Industrial Revolution. Discoverers refound old lands, opened up new ports, and brought to the ancient cultures the novel products and ideas of the West."

"A world-wide drama of conflict between the old, mature and fatigued civilizations and the young and invigorated civilizations." A repeat of that going on today?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
July 24, 2002 - 06:59 am
From THIS SITE.
"One question that has been of active interest to historians is why the Industrial Revolution occurred in Europe and not in other parts of the world, particularly China. Numerous factors have been offerred including ecological, governmental, and cultural. Benjamin Elman argues that China was in a high level equilibrium trap in which the non-industrial methods were so efficient as to prevent usage of industrial methods with high capital costs. Kenneth Pommeranz in the Great Diveregence argues that Europe and China were remarkable similar in 1700 and that the crucial difference which created the industrial revolution in Europe were sources of coal near manufacturing centers and raw materials such as food and wood from the New World which allowed Europe to economically expand in a way that China could not."

robert b. iadeluca
July 24, 2002 - 03:07 pm
An example of China as it enters the "communication revolution."

CHINA: AFTER FIRE, SOME INTERNET CAFES REOPEN More than a month after a deadly fire in Beijing killed 25 people and led officials to close all the city's Internet cafes, the authorities have allowed 30 to reopen. Before the fire, an estimated 2,400 Web bars operated in the city, only 200 of them authorized. The 30 newly reopened ones made new pledges to bar minors, follow fire codes, keep records of computer use for 60 days and install software to filter out "unhealthy" content like pornography or politically subversive messages. Erik Eckholm (NYT)

Malryn (Mal)
July 24, 2002 - 06:27 pm

Here's a link to an interesting article about China I just found.

CHINA'S SECOND REVOLUTION

robert b. iadeluca
July 25, 2002 - 04:08 am
Due to the lack of interest, we will move on to

JAPAN

The GREEN quotes above will show the sub-topics.

"The actually ruling house -- the hereditary shogunate -- allowed the emperor and his court $25,000 a year for maintaining the impressive and useful fiction of uninterrupted rule. Many people of the court practised some domestic handicraft to sustain themselves. Some made umbrellas, others made chopsticks, or toothpicks, or playing cards. The Tokugawa shoguns made it a principle to leave the emperor no authority whatever, to seclude him from the people, to surround him with women, and to weaken him with effeminacy and idleness. The imperial famly yielded its powers gracefully, and contented itself with dictating the fashions of aristocratic dress.

"The shogun assumed prerogatives normally belonging to the emperor. When he was borne through the streets in his ox-carriage, or palanquin, the police required every house along the route, and all the shutters of upper windows, to be closed. All fires were to be extinguished, all dogs and cats were to be locked up, and the people themselves were to kneel by the roadside with their heads upon their hands and their hands upon the ground."

Any comments?

Robby

Bubble
July 25, 2002 - 06:01 am
But how did the shoguns start? Is it the emperor who gave them their first power?

robert b. iadeluca
July 25, 2002 - 06:55 am
Bubble:--Because there seems to be very little interest in SofC now, I skipped a portion but I will post it now.

"The extravagence of the court finally ruined the solvency of the state. The exaltation of culture above ability filled administrative posts with incompetent poetasters, under whose scented noses corruption multiplied unnoticed. At last offices were sold to the highest bidder.

"Gangs of bandits were organized in the provinces, and even in the capital itself. The neglect of martial habits and virtues, or military organization and defense, left the government exposed to assault from any ruthless buccaneer. The emperor himself was every day more helpless, while the heads of the clans became again almost independent lords. Once more history moved in its ancient oscillation between a powerful central government and a feudal decentralized regime.

"Tempted by this situation, a class of military dictators arose, who assumed full authority over various sections of the archipelago, and recognized the emperor merely as the divine facade of Japan, to be maintained at a minimum of expense. The feudal system triumphed in Japan for the same reason that it had triumphed in Europe. Local sources of authority grew in power as a central and distant government failed to maintain security and order."

Similar to Afghanistan today? Has history taught us that might always wins out?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
July 25, 2002 - 06:56 am
I'm disappointed, Robby. We're skipping over Religion Without a Church in China, The High Place of Morals in Chinese Society (The Rule of Morals), and A Government Praised by Voltaire. How are we to understand the China of today if we don't think about the China of the past? China today has the potential for being a very, very strong power in the world. How did it get to this place? What has made it as it is?

Durant says, "History has known no people more supersitious, and none more sceptical, no nation so free from clerical domination, and none but the HIndus so blessed and cursed with gods."

He also says, "The order of the heavens and the moral behavior of mankind were kindred processes, parts of a universal and necessary rhythm called Tao -- the heavenly way; morality, like the law of the stars, was the cooperation of the part with the whole."

I believe we see this over and over in China, the cooperation of the part with the whole. About morals, Durant quotes Voltaire who said, "What the Chinese best know, cultivate the most, and have brought to the greatest perfection, is morality."

Durant goes on to say, "The Chinese proceeded on the assumption that the purpose of a moral code was to transform the chaos of sexual relations into an orderly institution for the rearing of children. The family's reason for being lay in the child."

He also says, "Ancestor worship forged an endless chain of reproduction, and gave it a double strength; the husbands must beget sons no only to sacrifice to him after his death, but to continue the sacrifice to his ancestors. 'There are three things which are unfilial,' said Mencius; 'and the greatest of them is to have no posterity.' "

When Durant wrote Our Oriental Heritage, he stated, "If the ideal state is a combination of democracy and aristocracy, the Chinese have had it for more than a thousand years; if the best government is that which governs least, then the Chinese have had the best. Never has a government governed so many people, or governed them so little, or so long." What happened to turn this government into the communist Republic of China?

Finally, Sir Robert Hart said, "The Chinese worship talent; they delight in literature, and everywhere they have their little clubs for learning, and for discussion each others essays and verses."

Durant sums it up, I think, by saying, "It was admirable that a society should make the experiment of being ruled, socially and politically, by men trained in philosophy and the humanities. It was an act of high tragedy when that system, and the entire civilization of which it formed the guiding part, were struck down and destroyed by the inexorable forces of evolution and history." Then he goes on with what he calls "The White Peril", Revolution and Renewal.

Durant says, "No victory of arms, or tyranny of alien finance, can long suppress a nation so rich in resouces and vitality. The invader willl lose funds or patience before the loins of China will lose virility; within a century learned all the technique of what transiently bears the name of modern industry; roads and communications will give her unity, economy and thrift will give her funds, and a strong government will give her order and peace. Every chaos is a transition. . . . . China has died many times before; and many times she has been reborn." What would Durant say today about China?

There. Now I'm more or less satisfied. ( I just hope there aren't too many typos, and that I've closed off all the italics I put in this post.)

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
July 25, 2002 - 07:01 am
I have always said that the participants in a discussion group are the engine. I am seeing only three or four people posting these days -- the engine is sputtering. Sometimes a whole day goes by with only one posting. What I do as discussion leader takes a lot of reading and typing but I am willing to do it if the participation increases.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
July 25, 2002 - 07:04 am
It sure does take time, Robby. I wonder how many people who come in and read the information you give them and never post a message realize exactly how much time it does take?

Mal

Bubble
July 25, 2002 - 07:21 am
Thanks Robby. Now it does make sense. I was getting lost before. Yes it seems similar to the military dictatorships. Were the shoguns as hard on people as those in afgahnistans or similar places, where life seems to go backwards in time instead of forward in civilization.





"Ancestor worship forged an endless chain of reproduction, and gave it a double strength; the husbands must beget sons no only to sacrifice to him after his death, but to continue the sacrifice to his ancestors. 'There are three things which are unfilial,' said Mencius; 'and the greatest of them is to have no posterity.' "

Strange how this is similar to what is the proper order for the orthodox Jews in this country too. To have sons means a speacial blessing from the Gods. Prayers for and remembering the ancestors is of first importance, and of course the "pedigree" of ascendance is too. Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
July 25, 2002 - 07:21 am
Nice of you to say so, Mal. However, I am not looking for sympathy but a decision as to whether this discussion should continue. And, may I add, I was taught the phrase years ago that "what you do speaks so loud, I can't hear what you say."

As I said earlier, if the interest shows itself again, I am willing to continue.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
July 25, 2002 - 07:22 am
The following quote came from THIS SITE. On this page is a table of contents with links to pages about Japan, its history, its culture, and much more.



" In order to get a handle on ancient Japanese history, it helps to consider that it is driven by outside influences. The first involved the settlement of Japan by a group of peoples from the Korean peninsula in the third century BC. Overnight they transformed the stone-age culture of Japan into an agricultural and metal-working culture. These early immigrants are ultimately the origin of Japanese language and culture.



" The second great push in Japanese history was contact with China from 200 AD onwards. From the Chinese, who demanded that Japan be a tribute state to China, the Japanese adopted forms of government, Buddhism, and writing. While Japanese culture ultimately derives from the immigrants of the third century BC, the bulk of Japanese culture is forged from Chinese materials—a fact that will drive an entire cultural revolution in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries as scholars attempt to reclaim original Japanese culture from its Chinese accretions.



"The overwhelming fact that suffuses every aspect of Japanese culture is its geography. Japan is a series of islands—the group consists of over 3000 islands of which 600 are inhabited. The four main islands, Honshu, Kyushu, Shikoku, and Hokkaido dominate Japanese history, however. The largest island is Honshu, but the overall geographical area of the inhabited islands is less than California. The climate is pleasantly moderate, for the islands lie in the path of the Black Current which flows north from the tropics. All the islands are mountainous and subject to a variety of natural disasters, especially earthquakes and tsunamis. The mountainous terrain leaves its mark on Japanese culture; since the mountains provide natural and difficult barriers, political life in Japan centered around regional rather than national governments. The earliest flowering of Japanese history took place in the low-lying plains on the island of Honshu, especially the Yamato plain in the south—a region that gave its name to the first 'official' name for Japan, Yamato. There the very first Japanese kingdom arose and provided the basis of future Japanese civilizations."
Now I never knew that, did you?

Bubble
July 25, 2002 - 07:51 am




There was a wonderful article and map inthe National geographic Magazine of Jine 1984. I don't know if it is possible to access so early on their web site?



There it says: " According to ancient chronicles the islands of JAPAN were created by the gods separate and apart from the rest of the world, with the emperor himself a divine descendant of the sun goddess.



Early governemnts at Nara and later at Kyoto were modeled after the Chinese civil system, with court and nobles under the emperor. In the 12th century a provincial warrior class rose to challengr the court and a dual system evolved. Yorimoto, the new military leader of the country had himself appointed shogun. The emperor remained a revered spiritual authority, but in politics he was now only a figurehead."



This is more or less what happened whith the shogun taking the autority in China, isn't it?
Bubble

Malryn (Mal)
July 25, 2002 - 07:52 am
Robby, I have to say this. Reading the quotes you've typed from the first volume of Will and Ariel Durant's The Story of Civilization, reading the book, and participating in this discussion have changed my attitude and outlook about nearly everything I thought before. The experience has changed the way I approach my own writing and the way I interpret and analyze literature in a way nothing else has, just as one example.

It has been almost incredible to realize that my roots, which I thought came out of New England and England go much farther back than that to Oriental civilizations. It has been something of a blow to see that what is happening now is not too dissimilar to what happened in Ancient Civilizations and to be aware that there is so little real change.

It has been perplexing sometimes to read about various religions, and at the same time acquire more understanding about their place in my own civilization right now and how they have influenced it and each other.

It has been an amazement to read about the development of science and medicine from very, very early times and note how these developments affect science and medicine and how we live today.

It has been a supreme joy to me to read about and do research about the music and art of very early civilizations up until Medieval times.

This experience in The Story of Civilization discussion has been invaluable to me; better than any university or college course I ever took and more stimulating than any show about history I ever saw. It has opened my mind and made me think. Anyone who passes by this opportunity is missing a great, great deal, in my opinion.

Come in and join us, folks. You don't need the book. The quotes in GREEN at the top of the page and the quotes from the book which Robby posts are all you need. We're not "brains" in here; we're people who are interested in our time and how it came about, just exactly the same way you are.

Mal

Éloïse De Pelteau
July 25, 2002 - 07:56 am
I read S of C regularly, Durant has a thorough knowledge of history and writes in a most brilliant manner and I respect him for that, but I don't know what to say that can be of interest to the participants.

Malryn (Mal)
July 25, 2002 - 08:00 am
Come on, Eloise. That never bothered you before, did it? You've been one of the most active and valuable participants here.

Mal

Bubble
July 25, 2002 - 08:05 am
There is a real wealth in knowledge and thought to be gained here. One could never attain the same understanding by reading the books by oneself nor receive all the variety of feedback from the people here. I am much slower than Mal and need time to mull it over, reflect and absorb it. Nevertheless I can feel it also changed my thinking by making me compare facts more deeply and not dismiss as "different" other cultures.



Here we say that we have a culture starting 5000 years ago. This is true. But the roots go deeper and in so many other directions than could be guessed by a cursory glance.



With the help of Robby we are able to gain some understanding of this process. Bubble

Malryn (Mal)
July 25, 2002 - 08:28 am
Tokugawa Ieyasu founded the shogunate in Edo (now Tokyo) in 1603 that endured for more than 260 years. Below is a link to Edo pages, which are beautifully illustrated and tell you in an easy-to-read way about Shoguns and what Edo was like in Ancient Japan. Click the animated door in the illustration to enter Edo. On following page, click the figure of the man who has his left arm extended at the left top of the pages to access more pages.

EDO

Tejas
July 25, 2002 - 08:32 am
Currently I am trying to find a book entitled "The History of Pottery in Japan." Although Japan had a stone-age economy, they also had the world's first pottery. The security in the public library is almost as bad as that in the "Enron" Building down the street.

JR

Elizabeth N
July 25, 2002 - 11:39 am
Perhaps we should wait six months or so before we go on to the next volume. Robbie, Mal, Justin, Sea Bubble, Eloise and all of you, thank you so much for your efforts in this discussion. I come to your "class" each day with anticipation and leave bouyed to follow my day. My understanding of the world slowly increases under your tutelage.

MaryPage
July 25, 2002 - 01:19 pm
I have read that anthopologists of today believe that the people of the far northern part of Japan, I believe they are called Ainu, or something like, and they are quite different from most Japanese, having been on those islands long before Chinese peoples moved into and took over the islands, these scientists think it quite probable that these are the very people who came over to North America eons ago and made up the peoples of some of our Native American tribes. Since I have direct blood lines from the Mohawk of the Iroquois Nation, I may well go back, DNA wise, to those Native Japanese. Interesting to think that most of the Japanese we see and hear about and from are not from those original tribes, just as is true in our country.

Justin
July 25, 2002 - 01:49 pm
Here we are in a crisis caused by lack of active participants. We have reached 7000 postings in a fairly short time. We have struggled through ancient China and are now at the point in Chinese history where the west plays a part in it's development. Durant, covers the period from the introduction of the Portuguese in the 16th century to the Boxer Rebellion in the 20th century in a half dozen pages. He gives the western exploitation short shrift and so do we as we pull out of China before examining it's modern mix. That's a disappointment. We had more people in the middle eastern discussion because the topic is more topical. We can't expect broad participation in every aspect of the history of civilization. In some periods we will have four participants and in others we will have twenty. That's the nature of the beast. Do not be discouraged, Robbie. The group will increase in size when we go to Greece. But even then I do not expect large numbers of participants. How many people have read Bury, for example.

MaryPage
July 25, 2002 - 02:08 pm
A big problem at the moment is summer vacationing and visitors. I, for instance, have 4 here from Missouri with me at the moment: a daughter, a granddaughter, and 2 great grands. Much visiting around with relatives and lots of activities and gatherings of the clan, etc. Not much spare time. Exhausting, but lovely.

Justin
July 25, 2002 - 02:31 pm
The Portuguese were rewarded by the Chinese Emperor in 1557 for help in defeating pirates. They received Macao as a gift and developed there opium factories which they used to supply opium to the Chinese. The revenues coming from the opium trade were so great that it attracted Britain,Spain, France, Japan, and the United States to the business. Spain took the Phillipines and Formosa to aid in its opium trade. Britain found Hong Kong. The Chinese government forbad the use of Opium by it's people. In 1838, the Chinese government tried to wipe out tthe trade. They seized and destroyed twenty thousand chests of the drug. The Brits went to war. Won it and cut down Chinese tariffs, Opened five treaty ports, and with the United States gained extra territorial rights. Again in 1856, an opium War broke out with the US, Britain, and FRance demanding legalization of opium. Again the Allies won and China opened ten new ports to foreign trade, legalized opium, agreed to pay an indemnity. Russia took Amur, the French took Indo China, Japan took Formosa and Korea. The Us took the Philippines from Spain to aid in the traffic with China. Franklin Roosevelt's grandaddy Delano was deeply involved in the early Opium trade. This was the kind of exploitation that took place and led to the Boxer Rebellion which was designed to drive out the "foreign devils".

robert b. iadeluca
July 25, 2002 - 02:53 pm
I was going to bring up this subject half way through Japan but as we have stopped temporarily to discuss our plans here, I would like to know your thoughts regarding Durant's next volume, "The Life of Greece." After we have come to some sort of consensus, we can go back to Japan and complete it. Here are our options regarding "LofG."What one do you like or what modifications?

1 - Do not bother having a discussion group about this volume.
2 - Open a new discussion group on LofG immediately after completing Japan.
3 - Before opening this new discussion group, have a hiatus of
a) two weeks
b) three weeks
c) one month
d) two months

before starting it.

I realize that the number of participants fluctuates but there has to be a decent number to begin with to attract others. And I am referring to participants, not lurkers, who are welcome but do not help to stimulate the discussion.

Are there enough people in Senior net interested in Ancient Greece? Do you have any Senior Net friends you can influence?

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
July 25, 2002 - 03:42 pm
Robby, I think that we need a pause and a change of pace. I don't like to set limits because it all depends on you, but I would like to know what Durant says about Life of Greece. I think 10 months on one volume is enough, and a rest of about a month would be good at this time, in my humble opinion.

Eloïse

Justin
July 25, 2002 - 05:31 pm
In my view, the timing of our entrance into Greece depends more on you, Robbie than on the participants. You are the one who is constantly involved. We move in and out depending on availability. I know, you've been absent occasionally but in the main you are the one driving the vehicle. If you would like a hiatus of a week or more, fine. I am ready to continue when you say, "go". Stopping permanently is not an option for me.

Malryn (Mal)
July 25, 2002 - 06:16 pm
No! Do not stop this discussion. I'm sure Robby would like a brief sabbatical. You decide how much time you want off, Robby; then let's go from there. Do we expect to be finished with Our Oriental Heritage by the end of August?

Mal

Jere Pennell
July 25, 2002 - 08:19 pm
Early Japan was a feudal state with strong leaders like the Yamato clan pacifying their area and others in other parts of Japan. They "governed" their area by might, consolidated by judicious marriages.

After many hundreds of years of fighting, one leader, Yoritomo, was the first to pacify the whole (a major part) of Japan calling himself Shogun to distinquish himself from the daimyo who ruled parts of Japan.

The Emperor did not have a standing army and so was powerless.

The Ainu who were the natives of Japan were/are Caucasians. They are in a similar place as the US Indian of which the Mohawk are one tribe. They are no longer restricted to a reservation and are allowed to assimilate into the Japanese population. There are efforts to try to preserve the Ainu culture and race. Ainu are over six feet in height and resemble Vikings more than anything I have seen. A very different contrast to the much smaller bronze skinned Japanese.

The Poruguese were the first foreigners to land in Japan in any numbers and most importantly receive trading rights and permission to dwell on the island of Deshima. Usually when a foreign vessel was blown off course and landed in Japan the sailors were killed by the samurai guarding the villages.

Samurai were the equivalent of the military and police in our society.

I have been waiting patiently till we have gotten to Japan, but I am willing to wait longer if we discuss the development of "modern China" the communists, the present two China System, the emerging economic state and the Chinese military system where instead of being dependent on taxes and therefore under the control of the taxpayers' representatives, they are semi-independent because the Army owns factories, industries, and many businesses.

'Nuff said or probably too much said?

Jere

Bubble
July 26, 2002 - 02:08 am
Robbie, #1 would not be an option, it would be a disappointment.



Two or three weeks recess sounds good.



September for me will be the busiest month with New Year's and Holy Days coming up, the house full with visiting family. I will try to be there nonetheless if we continue straight on. I am most interested.
Bubble

Malryn (Mal)
July 26, 2002 - 07:54 am
It looks to me as if Robby's asking us subtly to put our money where our mouths are. If we participants are the engine that generates this discussion; then let's generate it. I'm not entirely sure where we are in the book, but I found an interesting comment in the Revolution and Renewal part of the China section of Our Oriental Heritage which bears notice, I think. Durant says:
"The most powerful feeling in China today is hatred of foreigners; the most powerful process today in China today is imitation of foreigners. China knows that the west does not deserve this flattery, but the age offers to all nations the choice of imperialism or vassalage."
Now, this was written a long time ago, and it seems very applicable to today. What have we been seeing among feudal and tribal type nations if it is not exactly what Durant said about China all those years ago?

Japan seems pretty well westernized today, doesn't it? Sure looks like it from what I read and see on TV. But is it? Durant says the last to change are the villages. Have the villages in Japan changed? It certainly appears that the villages in China have not.

How about the United States? Have our villages changed with all of this modern technology we have? Have our villagers kept up with the Communications Age? Except for your grandchildren, how many people do you know who use computers regularly and have some understanding of how they work and what their presence in civilization means? Do traditions stay the same in spite of technology? How do you resolve in your mind attitudes in Afghanistan and other nations about the West? Could some of what's been happening in the world right now have been predicted by studying history?

Lots of questions here. Now it's up to you to do some thinking and come in and answer them and tell us what you think. I think we're doing something important here, don't you?

Mal

Jere Pennell
July 26, 2002 - 11:03 am
" I think we're doing something important here, don't you?"

Yes, I do and I think it can be done without Robby's active participation and direction if he wishes to take a vacation.

"Have the villages in Japan changed? "

Culturally no but technically yes. What that means is that the villages have moved the toilets indoors, have radios and TV's but the village is still run by the village elders, still farms by planting rice seedlings in water by hand, have little or no say in what goes on in Tokyo, still believes in arranged marriages, still considers male children of more value than female, the selling of daughters by impoverished farmers still continues but on a lesser extent, enjoys public communal bathing while the bullet train flashes on by the hamlets several times a day.

Jere

Bubble
July 26, 2002 - 11:11 am
I suppose people away from big cities change their outlook much more slowly that those exposed daily to new ideas and outside influence. Here of course we are too new a country or a too small one to feel that.



About the use of computers, I would say that not many people my age, who have not used it at work, would start now to learn the use of a computer. But children all get exposed to it and it has become the standart present to give one's children at age 12 or 13. One more generation and they all will forget the time when not all houses had one.



I wonder how many houses have TV, or maybe even phones, in Afghanistan, outside of towns?
Bubble

Justin
July 26, 2002 - 12:45 pm
Robby: We are floundering. Your direction is needed. Are we going to by-pass the crest of the Chinese civilization? Are we going to enter Japan? Are we going straight to Greece? Which? Select the topic and we will proceed.

robert b. iadeluca
July 26, 2002 - 02:08 pm
What I am doing is counting the number of people who want to participate in Life of Greece. At the moment it doesn't seem to be more than five -- hardly enough to start a new volume. Once we have a tentative count -- either way -- then let us get back to Japan.

Robby

Justin
July 26, 2002 - 04:26 pm
Many signs of change were in China in 1935, when Durant last looked at the ancient giant. Thousands of Chinese youth had been trained in western colleges. Confucius was out and science was in. Mandarin dialect became the language of literature. The new China was listening with special eagerness to John Dewey and Bertram Russell, whose independence of all theology and respect for experience and experiment was the only logic. These changes were evident in spite of the obvious exhaustion of the peasants which caused one to wonder whether China could ever rise again. But under the surface Durant saw factors of convalesence and renewal. China had a great untapped resevoir of natural resources whose exploitation would bring China to leadership in a world of luxury. Now, seventy years later, we can see China still struggling to find it's destiny.

MaryPage
July 26, 2002 - 08:33 pm
I would like to do all 11 volumes and then go on to his other books, ROBBY. I have little time to participate as fully as others, but that does not diminish my interest.

robert b. iadeluca
July 27, 2002 - 03:39 am
Due to the small amount of interest, it looks doubtful that there will be enough to go on to Life of Greece, but who knows? That may change. In the meantime, let us return to JAPAN.

"The shogun had a large personal retinue, including four jesters, and eight cultured ladies dedicated to entertain him without reserve. He was advised by a cabinet of twelve members:--a 'Great Senior,' five 'Seniors,' or ministers, and six 'Sub-Elders' who formed a junior council. As in China, a Board of Censors supervised all administrative offices, and kept watch upon the feudal lords. These lords, or Daimyo ('Great Name') formally acknowledged allegiance only to the emperor, and some of them, like the Shimadzu family that ruled Satsuma, successfully limited the shogun's authority, and finally overthrew it.

"Below the lords were the baronets, and below these the squires. And serving the lords were a million or more Samurai -- sword-bearing guards-men. The basic principle of Japanese feudal society was that every gentleman was a soldier, and every soldier a gentleman. Here lay the sharpest difference between Japan and that pacific China which thought that every gentleman should be a scholar rather than a warrior. Though they loved, and partly formed themselves on, such swashbuckling novels as the Chinese Romance of the Three Kingdoms, the Samurai scorned mere learning, and called the literary savant a book-smelling sot."

The phrase in the United States Army is "an officer and a gentleman."

Robby

Bubble
July 27, 2002 - 04:23 am
If so, Hara Kiri would be anathema for the Chinese.



Now I know where my Japanese car Damio from Mazda got its name!

Malryn (Mal)
July 27, 2002 - 07:31 am
I am reposting a link to the Japan site I posted earlier. Scroll down until you come to the word "Shogun" in red. On your left you will then see a picture of a Shogun. This is a most interesting site. Click the red words and pictures will come up for you to see. Click the small icon of the figure with his left arm extended at the top left of the page to access more pages.

JAPAN

Malryn (Mal)
July 27, 2002 - 07:45 am
Robby, I have posted in the Writers Exchange WREX discussion about the plan to discuss Life of Greece here and posted a link to this discussion so people could come in and tell us they're interested. I plan to post about this elsewhere, too. I do hope this brings a response.

Mal

Tejas
July 27, 2002 - 07:55 am
First of all may I suggest a book about China. The title is simply a date, 1587. The subtitle is, "an ordinary year." However, that book sums up almost all one needs to know about the Ming Dynasty.

Now, if I may change the topic to contemporary concerns, I have spent a very long time studying economic history. In Western History, feudalism only occurred at one period of time, the Middle Ages. But a similar system also occurs in any country or civilization where the military is the ruling class. The transition from feudalism to capitalism in England was fiercely fought. If we consider capitalism as simply feudalism translated into cash terms, there any so many analogies that it solves almost every problem in economic history. Both Germany and Japan made that transition very rapidly because they did understand that analogy.

JR

robert b. iadeluca
July 27, 2002 - 08:46 am
Nice to have your participation, JR. You say:--"In Western History, feudalism only occurred at one period of time, the Middle Ages. But a similar system also occurs in any country or civilization where the military is the ruling class."

Are you saying that there had to be a military ruling class (such as in Japan) for feudalism to exist there?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 27, 2002 - 09:45 am
"The Samurai had many privileges. They were exempt from taxation, received a regular stipend of rice from the baron whom they served, and performed no labor except occasionally to die for their country. They looked down upon love as a graceful game, and preferred Greek friendship. They made a business of gambling and brawling, and kept their swords in condition by paying the executioner to let them cut off condemned heads.

"His sword was the 'soul of the Samurai' and found remarkably frequent expression despite prolonged national peace. He had the right to cut down at once any member of the lower classes who offended him. When his steel was new and he wished to make trial of it, he was as likely to try it on a beggar as on a dog.

"The Samurai had other graces than this jolly despatch with which they transformd time into eternity. They accepted a stern code of honor -- Bushido, or the Way of the Knight -- whose central theory was its definition of virtue:--'the power of deciding upon a certain course of conduct in accordance with reason, without wavering. To die when it is right to die, to strike when it is right to strike.' They were tried by their own code, but it was more severe than the common law. They despised all material enterprise and gain, and refused to lend, borrow or count money. They seldom broke a promise, and they risked their lives readily for anyone who appealed to them for just aid. They made a principle of hard and frugal living. They limited themselves to one meal a day, and accustomed themselves to any food that came to hand, and to hold it.

"They bore all suffering silently, and suppressed every display of emotion. Their women were taught to rejoice when informed that their husbands had been killed on the battlefield. They recognized no obligation except that of loyalty to their superiors. This was, in their code, a higher law than parental or filial love.

"It was a common thing for a Samurai to disembowel himself on the death of his lord, in order to serve and protect him in the other world.

"Not even the traditions of Rome's finest soldiers bred greater courage, asceticism and self-control than were demanded by the code of the Samurai."

It would be interesting to compare these Samurai with the Knights of the Middle Ages.

Robby

Bubble
July 27, 2002 - 10:53 am
Is that why the faces always looked so impassible and cold in films? To a lesser degree it was the face of Englishmen a generation ago. You could board a bus in London and see poker faces, looking straight ahead, not a smile nor some show of interest. They called it keeping a stiff lip, it was spooky! Bubble

Éloïse De Pelteau
July 27, 2002 - 12:02 pm
You know Bubble I was always wondering what Asians think of our ever smiling faces in America, in photographs, on billboards, on TV shows it seems that whether we have something to smile about or not, we smile, when we meet someone, say hello, even strangers passing each other, we smile, even Durant found something here to smile about, but so brilliantly put.

"The Samurai had other graces than this jolly despatch with which they transformed time into eternity" .....Eloïse

Malryn (Mal)
July 27, 2002 - 02:56 pm
The following quote came from an excellent page about ANCIENT JAPAN
"The Heian government established a military system based on local militias composed of mounted horsemen. These professional soldiers were spread throughout the country and owed their loyalty to the emperor. They were "servants," or samurai. An important change occurred, however, in the middle of the Heian period. Originally the samurai were servants of the Emperor; they gradually became private armies attached to local aristocracy. From the middle Heian period onwards, for almost a thousand years, the Japanese military would consist of professional soldiers in numberless private armies owing their loyalty to local aristocracy and warlords. The early samurai were not the noble or acculturated soldiers of Japanese bushido , or "way of the warrior." Bushido was an invention of the Tokugawa period (1601-1868) when the samurai had nothing to do because of the Tokugawa enforced peace. The samurai of early and medieval Japan were drawn from the lower classes. They made their living primarily as farmers; their only function as samurai was to kill the samurai of opposing armies. They were generally illiterate and held in contempt by the aristocracy."

Jere Pennell
July 27, 2002 - 03:04 pm
"The final law of Bushido was hara-kiri - suicide by disembowelment."

The term "hara-kiri" is common meaning vulgar and means belly cutting. The ritual in Japanese is called Sepukku.

There were high class (ranked) women who were samurai who committed suicide by falling on their short swords. The katana was the long sword. All samurai caried two swords always.

"When his steel was new and he wished to make trial of it, he was as likely to try it on a beggar as on a dog." Traditionally a sword had to be "blooded" meaning cutting something to get blood on it to make it "good" This is pure nonsense but it still was tradition and carried out.

Mal's post number 165 is quite true and correct. What is commonly know as the samurai comes from the Tokugawa period and one of the Tokugawa shoguns was the Shogun of the book and film by Clavell.

Jere

Malryn (Mal)
July 27, 2002 - 03:05 pm
This quote came from THIS SITE
" Bushido is comprised of a system or standards of moral principles that became the soul of the Samurai, during the feudal periods of Japan. It developed over the centuries from the influences of Zen Buddhism, Confucianism, Shinotism, and the expression of these affectations, had their medium in the visual and literary arts such as painting, poetry, and living the way of life (Bushido) they chose to take. Each of these gifts molded and shaped Bushido, as a moral standard of conduct to follow.



" Influencing Bushido, Zen Buddhism lent to the Samurai a very Stoic disposition. This Stoicism was realized out of a genuine respect for life and also for death. Death, an inevitable eventuality of our own lives, is as much a part of nature as is life. It gives us an added level of thought and meaning to our existence. With the advent of death, there is the introduction of life. There are strong human emotions of anger, remorse, and detachment, etc., that are associated with death that complicate its understanding. However we are gifted by these very same feelings, that allow us to appreciate life and the things we enjoy and love. We most notably appreciate the things we take for granted once they are gone forever. The Samurai trust and faith in nature was because of the great admiration and respect for both life and death."

robert b. iadeluca
July 27, 2002 - 03:17 pm
Jere says:--"Traditionally a sword had to be "blooded" meaning cutting something to get blood on it to make it "good" This is pure nonsense but it still was tradition and carried out."

I am not "picking on" Jere's comment but, as I continue to travel through these various civilizations, I begin to be more, shall we say, broad-minded? Who is to define or describe "nonsense?" Is there anything nonsensical about some of the American traditions? Could it be that a thousand years ago such fearful tradition was necessary to keep the populace in line?

Robby

Jere Pennell
July 27, 2002 - 03:19 pm
Suicide is quite prevalent in Japanese society. The concept of honor is quite strong (ala Bushido) and wrong doing would reflect unfavorably on family, the company (business), or the country (government). Suicide was atonement for the sin and would be considered the honorable way to atone for the sin and reflect honor on the family, company, or government. Sin is used not in the religious sense.

Some common examples that I have witnessed were a young couple who were refused permission by a family to marry jumping in front of a train. A businessman whose company went into bankruptcy, laying off people hanging himself in a hotel room.

Jere

Jere Pennell
July 27, 2002 - 03:26 pm
By nonsense, I meant that according to a swordmaker that I talked to, there are no properties in blood that would enhance the steel of the katana. In addition, the blood needed to be wiped off quickly or the water in the blood would cause the steel to rust. Katana steel is not stainless but incredibly sharp. One does not run ones thumb or finger across the edge of the blade to test the sharpness without getting cut. A human hair is used.

Jere

Malryn (Mal)
July 27, 2002 - 03:29 pm
Is this what is meant by "Saving Face"? I have sometimes wondered if Saving Face is a Japanese concept or something Westerners have put upon the Japanese people in order to understand (explain) them better.

Mal

Justin
July 27, 2002 - 03:55 pm
Durant's introductory paragraph to the work on Japan is a masterpiece of Clairvoyance. After describing two stages in Japanese history, he proposes a third stage, called "Modern" in which the Japanese imitate the imperialistic ardor and methods of the West. The previously self contained Japan now seeking foreign materials (especially, oil),fights wars of irrepressible expansion and threatens both the ascendancy of the white race and the peace of the world. "By every historical precedent, Durant says, the next act will be war". This was said in 1935.

robert b. iadeluca
July 27, 2002 - 04:05 pm
Yes, Justin. He is most objective in his approaches and uses what he has learned about Mankind as his tools. This is the mark of an excellent historian.

Robby

Justin
July 27, 2002 - 05:09 pm
Some interesting comparisons can be made between the Judaic creation and the Japanese creation. Both creations required the gods to bring it all about. The Judaic god did the complete job. He made the world.The process took six days and it was done with out the aid of any devices. The Japanese gods used intermediaries, a brother and a sister and a device called a spear. The islands were formed by drops of water from the spear. There were 4223 drops in all resulting in the formation of 4223 islands. There is no mention of time. The Japanese gods were not interested in doing the complete job. Creating Japan may have been the equivalent of creating the world. The Japanese were so isolated they may have thought they were alone in the world. Where did the people come from? They sprang from an incestuous relationship with the aid of tadpoles. The emperors came from the goddess of the sun who sprang from the left eye of the male half of the creation duo. In Japan tadpoles taught the art of copulation. In Judaic history a snake took care of the instruction. In Japan the gods created brother and sister to do the job. In Judaic history The god created Adam and Eve to do the job. Similarities in creation stories abound without apparent prior contact.

OrchidLady
July 27, 2002 - 05:11 pm
B>I have suscribed to this discussion - I don't know if I can keep up with it. Certainly the current Orient discussion is one that I'm not competent to comment on. But I will be interested in the discussion on Greece, and hopefully, I will read the comments and perhaps have something to contribute. Louise

robert b. iadeluca
July 27, 2002 - 05:18 pm
Louise:--We are so glad to have you here. None of us pretends to be an "expert," least of all me. I would suggest that you continue to participate with us here as we discuss the Orient and my hunch is that this will make Ancient Greece more understandable when we get there. We look at this as if it were a "mystery story." We want to know (as the Heading indicates) where Man came from and where he is going. Durant keeps giving us clues and we discuss them.

Robby

Jere Pennell
July 27, 2002 - 06:19 pm
Mal,

Saving face is part of the idea I expressed earlier but is usually used in the sense of not causing embarassment to another. My business cards have both English and Japanese language on the same side to save face by not causing the reader to turn to the Japanese side if he can not read English. The traditional card has English language on one side and Japanese language on the other.

A more common custom is saying, "I am sorry" in reply to a statement of "I forgot to..." or "I did not...". Behavior modification is not anticpated but the listener apologises to allow the other to save face.

Is this helpful?

Jere

moxiect
July 27, 2002 - 07:12 pm


Hello Rob,

Just found this place and I have enjoyed playing catch up on your discussion of Japan. I love learning about different cultures. I do hope you plan to continue on to Greek culture.

Marie

Justin
July 27, 2002 - 11:57 pm
Well, Robby, That's two more. How many do we need to start?

Bubble
July 28, 2002 - 02:44 am
The bloodying of the sword to make it worthy... In my mind I can compare that to the bloodying of the hands in Eastern Africans: on puberty they have to survive alone in the jungle and bring the proof they have killed a wild animal by themselves. Only then can they join the other males of the tribe and are not children anymore. So the sword had to "prove itself".



The short sword of women reminded me of Mme Butterfly reclining slowly on hers while continuying to sing.
Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
July 28, 2002 - 03:45 am
Welcome to our discussion group, Marie! I am glad you are interested in both Japan (our last chapter in Durant's "Our Oriental Heritage") and the second volume, "The Life of Greece." It looks as if the interest in Ancient Greece is increasing.

Your comments here are welcomed!

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 28, 2002 - 04:07 am
Louise and Marie, check the GREEN quotes above in the Heading which are periodically changed. This helps to keep us up to date as to where we are in the volume. We have now moved on to The Law and Durant says:--

"The legal system of Japan had its origins partly in the ancient usages of the people, partly in the Chinese codes of the seventh century. Law accompanied religion in the migration of culture from China to Japan.

"Tenchi Tenno began the formulation of a system of laws which was completed and promulgated under the boy emperor Mommu in 702. In the feudal epoch, this and other codes of the imperial age fell into disuse and each fief legslatd independently. The Samurai recognized no law beyond the will and decrees of his Daimyo."

Interesting that the system of laws was promulgated while the Emperor was a boy.

Robby

Bubble
July 28, 2002 - 05:15 am
But wouldn't a Regent do the same thing by promulagating a needed law if the king was still minor? It must have been the same too in ancient Egypt when the Pharaon was too young.

robert b. iadeluca
July 28, 2002 - 05:27 am
Bubble:--I should have explained my realization that a Regent or Shogun was in the background and that they promulgated the laws while the Emperor was still immature.

Robby

Bubble
July 28, 2002 - 05:41 am
A deliberate act you say. It could well be. Especially if they wanted to limit the Emperor's tasks influence.



Nowadays one proclaims a state of emergency or high alert and one can promulgate additional rules and laws, isn't it? Or maybe it is different... Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
July 28, 2002 - 06:21 am
Is this ONE EXAMPLE of the difference between Western civilization and Ancient Oriental civilization where apparently individual life was not respected?

Robby

Bubble
July 28, 2002 - 07:16 am
I think people always cared? But means to show it were harder. They seem more barbaric to us. Maybe they had no choice.

Malryn (Mal)
July 28, 2002 - 07:29 am
That was an amazing rescue. Do you think the Japanese would not have made the same effort to rescue their people? What about earthquakes over there? Haven't there been incidents of rescues after those?

Earlier in the book Durant describes a time of great prosperity and refinement.. Kyoto became "the Paris and Versailles of France." He goes on to say that the extravagance of the court "finally ruined the solvency of the state." This is so reminiscent of other civilizations we've discussed.

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
July 28, 2002 - 07:45 am
In a search for Ancient Japanese law I found the Japanese Constitution. Below is one of the clauses that tells me something about people in Ancient Japan and what they believed.
"3. When you receive the Imperial commands, fail not scrupulously to obey them. The lord is Heaven, the vassal is Earth. Heaven overspreads, and Earth upbears. When this is so, the four seasons follow their due course, and the powers of Nature obtain their efficacy. If the Earth attempted to overspread, Heaven would simply fall in ruin. Therefore is it that when the lord speaks, the vassal listens; when the superior acts, the inferior yields compliance. Consequently when you receive the Imperial commands, fail not to carry them out scrupulously. Let there be a want of care in this matter, and ruin is the natural consequence."

MaryPage
July 28, 2002 - 08:00 am
It would seem we humans have, as do all primates, a predilection for higher and lower places on the social scale and everyone to stay in their place. This arrangement differs greatly among cultures, but the principle remains the same. In Japan, wealth does not appear to have everything to do with stature, as it surely does in most countries, (note that farmers are ranked second and merchants, rich or not, fourth) yet the accumulation of wealth at the top and the mindless consumption there that affected and brought misery to the entire country's economic health is still responsible for making sick economies in our own time!

Bubble
July 28, 2002 - 08:10 am
The rescue work for the Kobe earthquake was one of the best organized world wide. I had a cousin living there at the time and she told me that real prowess, miracles, were witnessed those few days. I don't think there is a difference in efforts between the people. The Japanese were very efficient, more so that the Turks in Ismir... Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
July 28, 2002 - 08:31 am
Mal says:--"Do you think the Japanese would not have made the same effort to rescue their people? What about earthquakes over there? Haven't there been incidents of rescues after those?

Bubble says:--"I don't think there is a difference in efforts between the people."

Please note that in my question I said Ancient Oriental Civilizations.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
July 28, 2002 - 08:48 am
The Japanese Constitution, a link to which I posted, gives me the impression that it was of greatest importance in feudalistic times for Japanese people to be obedient. "...when the lord speaks, the vassal listens." If Ancient Japanese people were told by their lord and superior that they must rescue people in terrible distress, they would do it. If the lord and superior did not give this order, they would not.

According to the JAPANESE TIMELINE I accessed, the Constitution to which I linked is the 17 Article Constitution of Prince Shotoku and was written in 604 AD. Because it tells us what Ancient Japanese believed and how they were ordered to behave, I think it is important that we examine it.

Mal

Bubble
July 28, 2002 - 09:09 am
the difference between Western civilization and Ancient Oriental civilization





Mea Culpa, I did not read it properly. But is it fair then to compare the West now and the ancient Oriental?
It seems to me that life was very cheap too in the Middle Age Europe, or during the crusades... Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
July 28, 2002 - 09:18 am
If it true that life was cheap also during the Middle Ages in Europe (an Occidental civilization), then perhaps we will come to decide as we continue along with Durant that being "civilized", as we now define the term, only came into existence in recent centuries.

When we start to examine Ancient Greece, will we consider that Civilization Oriental or Occidental?

Robby

Bubble
July 28, 2002 - 09:28 am
Up to now I always considered that ancient Greece and ancient Rome were very similar. Rome is western, thus Greece should also be?



Looking at life in Greece today, I cannot consider the inhabitants, the life style otherwise than in the light of the Orient. Maybe the Mediterranean is the bridge between the two cultures.
Bubble

Éloïse De Pelteau
July 28, 2002 - 10:48 am
Bubble - Maybe the Mediterranean is the bridge between the two cultures. Yes, and hordes of people crossed that bridge to and fro it seems until you can't notice a difference between them.

There is no reason why we should always "seperate" things, people, cultures, races etc. Why do we put everything into slots or categories, if you will. 'Americans are such and such, the 'elderly', the 'poor'. Our newspapers and the news on TV constantly say things like this: "A 'Caucasian' man in his 'thirties' killed an 'African American' woman in her 'sixties' while she was crossing the street in an 'all white neighborhood' of this 'up scale' neighbourhood of down town (write any city).

Is this not making people aware of 'social status'?

I agree with MaryPage: "It would seem we humans have, as do all primates, a predilection for higher and lower places on the social scale and everyone to stay in their place. This arrangement differs greatly among cultures, but the principle remains the same". You can determine that humans have this genetic flaw by thses fine words.

Ever since we have started S of C, we have noticed that everybody benefited from an Oriental Heritage and the overlapping of races and cultures that has taken place since the beginning of time.

Eloïse

Bubble
July 28, 2002 - 12:41 pm
Eloise, we cannot deny that we are primates . We did not change much, no matter what! I would say that civilization ( I do not mean knowledge) really touches a small percentage of the general population. For the "rest" it is a thin varnish. I am with that rest, still very primitive in my outlook, because I cannot deal with abstract notions. But I am learning. Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
July 28, 2002 - 12:49 pm
Durant continues:--"The grown sons of an adult who had been condemned to be crucified or burned were executed with him, and his younger sons, on coming of age, were banished. Ordeal was used in medieval trials, and torture remained popular, in its milder forms, until modern times. The Japanese used the rack in vengeful imitation of the Inquistion, but more often their subtle minds were content to bind a man with ropes into a constrained position that became more agonizing with every minute.

"Whippings for trifling offenses were frequent, and death could be earned by any one of a great variety of crimes. The Emperor Shomu (714-56) abolished capital punishment and made compassion the rule of government, but crime increased after his death. The Emperor Konin (770-81) not only restored the death penalty, but decreed that thieves should be publicly scourged until they died."

From cruelty to compassion to cruelty to compassion to cruelty. Civilization moves on.

Robby

MaryPage
July 28, 2002 - 01:34 pm
I do not understand the words "in vengeful imitation of the Inquisition." I mean, it is actually the adjective vengeful that mystifies me. I know about the Inquisition, but why would The Japanese be vengeful about it? Perhaps I need to go to my dictionery and see if there is a meaning I am unaware of here.

robert b. iadeluca
July 28, 2002 - 02:09 pm
MaryPage:--Perhaps I am the guilty one. In the interest of time, I left out a phrase. The complete sentence says:--"The Japanese used the rack on some Christians, in vengeful imitation of the Inquisition."

Does this make a difference? Did not the Christians use the rack?

Robby

Justin
July 28, 2002 - 02:27 pm
Human habitation has been found on the Islands of Jpan dating back to 30,000BCE. Land bridges existed at that time connecting The Asian Mainland with Japan. I see, looking at the map, that Iki and Tshushima are islands lying between Kyoto and Pusan. Pusan is about fifty miles distant and the two islands between are like stepping stones reducing the distance to gaps of five miles and ten miles apart. This area could have been the site of a land bridge. We know that rice cultivation spread from Korea. Perhaps other things as well. Perhaps, people mingled and acculturation led to the unique being we call Japanese.

Justin
July 28, 2002 - 03:02 pm
Metal working and the pottery wheel also came to Japan from Korea and later after the Yamato family established the imperial seat, we find things like Buddhism coming across the Korean Channel. A 200 year mission to China brought governmental forms, Chinese art and architecture to Japan. I guess Japan was not as isolated as I had previously thought.

Justin
July 28, 2002 - 04:05 pm
The De Young Museum in San Francisco has just acquired Ainu ceremonial robes from the late 19th century. They are made of elm bark fiber and cotton into a plain weave with embroidery and applique.The motifs and design systems emphasize meanders and the interchange of positive and negative ground. The patterns are believed to hold magical and protective powers that ward off evil spirits. The physical features of the Ainu are very different from their mongoloid neighbors. They have long noses, deep set eyes, curley hair and beards. Their language is a linguistic isolate, much like Basque.Culturally the Ainu are a northern people who have close affinities with population groups from Siberia and North America.

OrchidLady
July 28, 2002 - 04:52 pm
JUSTIN, how do the Japanese and their govt. treat the Ainu. I seem to remember they were social outcasts. Louise

Malryn (Mal)
July 28, 2002 - 05:40 pm
This is a link to some fine pages about the Ainu people. Be sure to click the links on the left for their history, how they lived, and more.

AINU MUSEUM

Justin
July 28, 2002 - 07:12 pm
Louise: The Japanese government seems to be supporting the Ainu museum in hopes of popularizing Ainu culture. However, I do not know about the acceptance of Ainu people by Japanese. I think they were confined to Hokaido so their aceptance was not a national concern. I think Jere might know something of their acceptance in Japanese society.

Jere Pennell
July 28, 2002 - 10:01 pm
In a previous post I said that the Ainu are treated much like the the US Indian. they are encouraged to assimilate into the Japanese culture. Recently there were measures that try to preserve the Ainu culture. The Ainu most closely resemble Vikings to my uncultured eye. They are tall, big, and some do not speak Japanese. They were on "reservations" but that has ended although the land they are on is still protected.

Louise, they are social outcasts but please remember in Japan anyone that is not a Japanese is a social outcast. Koreans who have lived in Japan for many generations are still considered social outcasts. Any foreigner meaning non-Japanese is considered an social outcast.

Jere

Jere Pennell
July 28, 2002 - 10:10 pm
it was of greatest importance in feudalistic times for Japanese people to be obedient. "...when the lord speaks, the vassal listens."

Mal, you are right and it was not limited to the Ancient Japan. Nowadays it is still important to be obedient. Admission of guilt and taking responsibilty for actions is very important also. When the US submarine sunk the Japanese fishing training boat in Hawaii, the commander of the sub wanted to apologize and take responsibility for the incident but the lawyers said no because if he did he would be fiscally responsible for the accident.

The Japanese people never forgave him until after the court martial, and he left the service, when he returned to Japan and expressed his apologies to the families in the high school auditorium. Only then was there closure on the matter. It is very important to the Japanese people.

Jere

Bubble
July 29, 2002 - 12:56 am
Jere, about your last post. As an individual, when I have been irreparably slighted, I also feel bitter especially if the culprit does not want to recognize it. If they apologize I would feel much better about it, even if no repair is possible, So the Japanese reaction seems very human to me.



Other people must seem very callous to them. Money has a louder voice than decency. Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
July 29, 2002 - 03:18 am
Durant continues:--"Capital punishment also took the form of strangling, beheading, crucifixion, quartering, burning, or boiling in oil. Iyeyasu put an end to the custom of pulling a condemned man in two between oxen, or binding him to a public post and inviting each passer-by to take a turn in cutting through him, from shoulder to crotch, with a saw. Iyeyasu laid it down that the frequent resort to severe punishments proved not the criminality of the people so much as the corruption and incompetence of the officials.

"Yoshimune was disgusted to find that the prisons of his time had no sanitary arrangements, and that among the prisoners were several whose trials, though begun sixteen years back, were still unfinished, so that the accusations against them were forgotten, and the witnesses were dead.

"This most enlightened of the shoguns reformed the prisons, improved and accelerated judicial procedure, abolished family responsibility and labored sedulously for years to formulate the first unified code of Japanese feudal law."

Any comparisons in your mind with law and prison procedures of our day?

Robby

Bubble
July 29, 2002 - 05:21 am


I don't know much about what's going on behind prison walls, in the world or here. Nevertheless, there are still many reports of tortures and terrible acts against "the enemy" in all the modern day’s wars such as in for mer Yugoslavia.



The descriptions from Durant bring to mind texts about the Inquisition as well as doings during the Roman wars.



Laws order us to have fair trial to the guilty and to protect who might be innocent until proven otherwise. Bubble

MaryPage
July 29, 2002 - 05:45 am
BUBBLE, you are so right! Whoops! I was referring to your #210, and you snuck another one in on me there!

ROBBY, that makes it a little easier to understand, but I still find myself wondering why the Japanese felt vengeful towards the Christians when using the rack on them. Or vengeful about using the rack. Yes, the Committee for the Inquisition most certainly did make dreadful use of the rack during said Inquisition, but I don't believe there was any persecution of the Japanese, was there?

Jere's remarks about social outcasts rings bells with me. Both my mother and my father, who were divorced when I was an infant, were in the military. Both were stationed in Japan, though at very different times. Both admired the Japanese and winced over the insulting gaffs many Americans made. There is just no point in visiting other countries and being rude about their ordinary customs. I emphasize ordinary, because I would be very rude indeed if they still practiced some of the dreadful means of execution that ROBBY lists. On the whole, though, if we have a poor reputation with them, I think it is probably deserved.

A trio of Japanese sisters attended the same boarding school here as one of my granddaughters, and one of them became her best friend. I was enchanted at the manners of these girls from Japan. Particularly I remember sitting at a round table on the lawn of the school after graduation with my family and theirs. One of the parents left the table for, oh, at least 15 minutes, I would estimate. The girls stood up when he got up and did not sit down again at all until he had returned and taken his seat! Given the surrounding tables filled with families sitting down and chowing down, they must have felt terribly awkward, but they remained standing all that while!

That granddaughter was fortunate enough to be invited by her friend to visit the family in Japan for several weeks, which she did. Melissa was delighted with Japan and the family. They took her literally all over the country. She was told before going, and has been told many times since, that this inviting of Americans to private homes for visits is fairly rare, so she felt especially fortunate.

robert b. iadeluca
July 29, 2002 - 05:56 am
Let me make a guess regarding the Japanese using the rack.

1 - They had learned in one way or another that the Christians had used the rack.
2 - The Christians were "forcing" their ideas onto Japan.
3 - The Japanese were angry at this.
4 - The Japanese decided to give them a taste of their own medicine.

Robby

MaryPage
July 29, 2002 - 06:04 am
EXCELLENT! Go to the head of the class. On the other hand, since you are already there, stay in place.

In other words, it sounds good to me!

robert b. iadeluca
July 29, 2002 - 06:16 am
SCREECH!! YOWL!!

I am not at the head of the class because

THIS IS NOT A CLASS!!

We are a group of civilly speaking friends gathered together in someone's living room and trying to solve a Mystery Story -- Where did we come from? Where are we now? Where are we going?

Jeez! It's enough to make a person want to use the rack.

Robby

moxiect
July 29, 2002 - 06:35 am


In truth each civilization ancient or current has at one time or another a history of "mans inhumanity toward man" when it comes to barbarism.

robert b. iadeluca
July 29, 2002 - 06:42 am
Durant continues (see change in GREEN quotes):--"In the imperial age society had been divided into eight sel or castes. In the feudal epoch these were shortened into four classes:--Samurai, artisans, peasants, and merchants -- the last being also, in social ranking, least. Beneath these classes was a large body of slaves, numbering some five per cent of the population, and composed of criminals, war-captives, or children seized and sold by kidnappers, or children sold into slavery by their parents. Lower even than these slaves was a caste of pariahs known as Eta, considered despicable and unclean by Buddhist Japan because they acted as butchers, tanners and scavengers.

"The great bulk of the population (which numbered in Yoshimune's days some thirty millions) intensively cultivated that one-eighth of Japan's mountainous soil which lends itself to tillage. In the Nara period the state nationalized the land, and rented it to the peasant for six years or, at most, until death. The government discovered, however, that men did not care to improve or properly care for land that might in a short time be assigned to others. The experiement ended in a restortion of private ownership, with state provision of funds in the sprng to finance the planting and reaping of the crops."

Capitalism over Communism? Aided by government subsidies for farmers?

Robby

MaryPage
July 29, 2002 - 06:49 am
Sounds like it to me! And ROBBY, I'm already racked with arthritis, so be sweet now. Mea culpa for riling you.

Malryn (Mal)
July 29, 2002 - 07:41 am
It sounds as if there was a true caste system in Ancient Japan that was similar to what we read about which existed in India. I can't remember a civilization we've discussed that did not resort to the barbarism Moxie-Marie mentioned, can you?

There's a question in my mind. If the Ainu are the aborigines of Japan, or the original settlers, where did the smaller, olive skinned, dark-eyed people come from? America's aborigines have a darker, more mahogany color skin than those so-called "white" invaders who took over their land. We have a pretty good idea where these white people came from. Was there an immigration of people from China or Korea to Japan. What happened way back when this happened, I wonder?

The gene combinations which produced these different varieties of skin color and appearance really interest me. Put in very simple terms: According to Mendelian law as applied to botany, the color of flowers turns to white when there is enough "inbreeding". Where did our color go? What was it in the beginning?

Mal

Jere Pennell
July 29, 2002 - 11:50 am
"Where did our color go? What was it in the beginning?"

Mal, in Japan that question is easier to answer than in the US. The problem in the US is, who is "our" as in our color. The melting pot defies an easy answer.

Anthropologically, the Japanese invaders are descended originally from Dravidian racial stock of the stuff from India and SE Asia. The Ainu racial stock are from Scandanavia area as is their language linguistically.

Jere

Jere Pennell
July 29, 2002 - 12:01 pm
Bubble, remorse or repentance plays a large role in sentencing in Japan. A prisoner who does not express remorse or repentance will get twice or three times the length of time in prison as a repentent criminal.

Regarding the rack and Robby's answers, please keep in mind that the Christians were teaching that there is a God but it was not the Emperor. Many of them taught that the Japanese owed allegiance only to God and not to the Emperor.

The rack was considered a more humane and easier punishment than the typical Japanese punishment for disobeying the Emperor and through him the samurai. The idea came from Marco Polo, it is taught.

Subsidies for crops still have not ended. The rice farmer is still subsidized in Japan. Japanese rice is still considered "better" than the Japanese rice grown in California which is by far better tasting and not to be compared to SE Asian rice or Indian rice.

Jere

Bubble
July 29, 2002 - 12:34 pm
crops here too are subsidized, even if imports would be cheaper. That is to keep providing work for agriculturers and also not to be dependent on imports in case of need.



Remorse... how do they check if it is genuine?



Jere, was any DNA research made with the Ainu?



Bubble

MaryPage
July 29, 2002 - 01:34 pm
AHA! Marco Polo! Now it makes sense! Thanks.

Jere Pennell
July 29, 2002 - 03:02 pm
bubble

"crops here too are subsidized, even if imports would be cheaper. That is to keep providing work for agriculturers and also not to be dependent on imports in case of need."

I am sure that the reason is the same in Japan as well as the other countries that follow this practice.

Remorse... how do they check if it is genuine?

Would you lie in court? SMILING Actually, the Japanese people are usually truthful in Japan and specially dealing with the government.

Jere, was any DNA research made with the Ainu?

I do not know. I have not read of any, but that is just because I have not pursued the matter. Maybe our search guru, Mal, can check and see. See is far better on research on the Web than I am. I am continually amazed at some of the sites she has come up with for our education.

Jere

robert b. iadeluca
July 29, 2002 - 04:53 pm
Does this LINK give us any clues of the relationship between SAMI of Lapland and AINU of Japan?

Robby

mssuzy
July 29, 2002 - 05:19 pm
Thanks, Robert, this is interesting indeed. have the whole series of those books and have looked into several volumes, but not ancient Japan. To me, that's on the other side of the world = although I tried to learn Japanese at one time. Has anyone gone to the Freer Gallery in Washington? It's worth the trip. I will exhume my Ariant book, thanks for reminding me I had it

robert b. iadeluca
July 29, 2002 - 06:02 pm
Suzy:--When you say you have the whole series of the books, I am assuming you are talking about The Story of Civilization. -- So--we will be looking forward to your participating with us in the second volume, The Life of Greece.

Robby

Jere Pennell
July 29, 2002 - 08:09 pm
I did not get any clues from the recommended article titled above but I was fascinated with the similarities in culture mentioned in the paragraphs immediately preceding your suggested reading, Robby.

Amazing, but yet normal for like to seek like.

Jere

Justin
July 29, 2002 - 10:37 pm
When one compares the Japanese money lender with the European money lender in the same time period, some interesting differences arise. In europe the Catholic church made usury a sin and in so doing left the banking business to the Jews. They prospered but the restriction limited economic Growth in Europe. That does not appear to have happened in Japan. The money lenders belonged to the most powerful guild and the mercantile wealth of the nation grew. I suspect we will find that it was the money lenders who helped Peary open the Japanese economic world in 1856.

Justin
July 29, 2002 - 10:57 pm
I am reading the section on "People" and must comment early. Among those who could afford it, clothes were changed three times a day and everyone bathed daily. This is in 1905. People in the US at this time were addicted to Saturday night baths, once per week. When I was a child, in the twenties, I had a bath once per week whether it was needed or not. I don't think American bathing habits changed until the second world war when showers became popular. In Japan people bathed in tubs outside their homes while gossiping with their neighbors. Americans do that today but tub bathing is recent innovation and only invited neighbors may participate. In Japan hot baths at 110 degrees were used to keep warm in winter. In the US, 104 degrees is the recommended temperature for fitness clubs. When my tub reaches 106 I am cooking and at 107 I must get out and fix the heater to prevent par boiling.

Justin
July 29, 2002 - 11:11 pm
I know I am out in front of you, But I can't resist talking about the pleasures of warm sake. It is smooth and warms the tummy like no other liquor. It is easy to drink too much for each little cup is better than the last. I have been sipping sake for 60 years. It was the one nice thing the Japanese did for me during the war. My platoon liberated a storehouse full of it and we knew it would make a poor souvenir and in addition the poet Tahito declared way back in the seventh century that sake was the one solution for all the problems of life.

Malryn (Mal)
July 29, 2002 - 11:16 pm
Go to bed now, Justin. I can't sleep either.

Goodnight,
Mal

Jere Pennell
July 30, 2002 - 12:17 am
I suspect we will find that it was the money lenders who helped Peary open the Japanese economic world in 1856.

I doubt it sincerely, Justin, because unlike the western world the merchant class did not have to power then that it has now. The military had the most power then. A rich merchant who insisted too strongly lost his head to a nearby samurai and his assets could go to the Shogun.

On the other hand the marriage of the Crown Prince to the tennis playing daughter of a member of the merchant class did much to elevate its status.

Re: Sake

Not all your habits are bad. Unfortunately I like good sake hot or cold. Bad sake needs to be drunk hot where is loses its afterbite.

Jere

robert b. iadeluca
July 30, 2002 - 03:56 am
"As today Japan begins to excel her Western instructors in economy and efficiency of mechanical production, so during the Tokugawa Shogunate her handicraftsmen began to rival, and sometimes to excel, the Chinese and Koreans from whom they had learned their art. Most of the work, in the manner of medieval Europe, was done in the home by families who passed down their occupation and their skill from father to son, and often took the name of their craft. Again, as in our Middle Ages, great guilds were formed, not so much of simple workers as of masters who mercilessly exploited the artisans, and zealously restricted the admission of new members to the guilds.

"The money-changers accepted deposits, issued vouchers and promissory notes, made loans to commerce, industry and government, and (by 1636) performed all the major functions of finance. Rich merchants and financiers rose to prominence in the cities, and began to look with jealous eye upon the exclusive political power of a feudal aristocracy that angered them by scorning the pursit of gold. Slowly, throughout the Tokugawa era, the mercantile wealth of the nation grew, until at last it was ready to cooperate with American gifts and European guns in bursting the shell of the old Japan."

I am wondering what it is (was) about the Japanese that enabled them constantly to excel their instructors. And the relationship between the financiers and the government also seems to ring a bell.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
July 30, 2002 - 06:09 am
I'll show my ignorance here and ask if moneychangers are the same as usurers or moneylenders. Aha, just re-read Robby's post and saw that they were that and more.

I've mentioned before that I watch Food TV from time to time. Tony Bourdain has a show on that channel in which he travels all over the world talking to chefs, going to markets and eating the food of whatever country he's in. There have been several excerpts about Japan which show Bourdain going where the Japanese go to eat, not touristy places set up for foreigners. There was a scene where he went to a place which didn't look like what we in the West think a bar is. Several people were sitting at a table drinking, and that was what the place was for. A bottle was on the table, and I learned that if someone pours you a drink from that bottle, you take it and pour one for him or her. This was in Tokyo, and the place was full of Japanese businessmen, who had just left work. I saw one businesswoman there. They all were having a jolly old time, it looked like to me.

In another scene Bourdain took a bullet train to the country. Amazing to see the scenery flash by outside the train window. When he arrived at a lovely inn in the country, he bathed outside in a beautiful, rustic pool. The next scene showed him wearing a kimono and kneeling at a table where he was served by two geisha, who waited on him beautifully, even to the point of showing him how to eat the food. After the meal, the geisha danced and sang. It was lovely. What struck me most about this was that one of the geisha must have been at least 60 years old.

There were such extremes. The city was crowded, hurried, very much today. The country was slow and deliberate, not of this era.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
July 30, 2002 - 06:15 am
As I look back (in my memory) at some of Civilizations we visited, I am coming to realize that money, money-changers, usury, bankers, business, trading, markets, buying, selling, etc. etc. were far more important to each Civilization than I had realized. Even thousands of years ago! And that these people wielded much power. Sometimes, apparently, even more power than the priests or the emperors.

Is this my imagination?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
July 30, 2002 - 06:24 am
Something or other has been used as currency for payment of goods and services for a long, long time. Oyster shells were used by Native American Indians as currency, for example. I just looked up the word "lucre" in my computer dictionary. I found this interesting.
"Word History: When William Tyndale translated aiskhron kerdos, 'shameful gain' (Titus 1:11), as filthy lucre in his edition of the Bible, he was tarring the word lucre for the rest of its existence. But we cannot lay the pejorative sense of lucre completely at Tyndale's door. He was merely a link, albeit a strong one, in a process that had begun long before with respect to the ancestor of our word, the Latin word lucrum, 'material gain, profit.' This process was probably controlled by the inevitable conjunction of profit, especially monetary profit, with evils such as greed. In Latin lucrum also meant 'avarice,' and in Middle English lucre, besides meaning 'monetary gain, profit,' meant 'illicit gain.' Furthermore, many of the contexts in which the neutral sense of the word appeared were not that neutral, as in 'It is a wofull thyng . . . ffor lucre of goode . . . A man to fals his othe [it is a sad thing for a man to betray his oath for monetary gain].' Tyndale thus merely helped the process along when he gave us the phrase filthy lucre."

Bubble
July 30, 2002 - 07:01 am
I don't know if I am mistaken, but the people in asian countries seem to me to be more laborious, industrious, perseverant maybe from tradition, from learning the pride of work well done. This would make them excel their instructors.

Malryn (Mal)
July 30, 2002 - 07:24 am
Let's learn about the Japanese; then maybe we'll be able to understand their work ethic and need to excel.

JAPANESE NEW YEAR

Malryn (Mal)
July 30, 2002 - 07:29 am
JAPANESE CHILDREN'S DAY

Malryn (Mal)
July 30, 2002 - 07:36 am
WATER RITUALS IN JAPAN

moxiect
July 30, 2002 - 08:08 am


Children's Day = my grandaughter who is in a school that teaches Japanese as a second language in her words "they use to celebrate just for boys and now it is for all children". I attended one of the celebrations "for Children" one day as was totally amazed.



Hasn't the "strongest" always preyed on the weak? Even in the animal kingdom this hierachy appears.

Jo70
July 30, 2002 - 08:19 am
There was a Will Durant that was chief of the Choctaw Indians. Is this by chance, the same one.

Malryn (Mal)
July 30, 2002 - 08:36 am
Don't know, Justin. I'll try to find out.

Yesterday I put the August issue of The WREX Magazine on the World Wide Web. Most of the graphics on the cover come from my favorite Japanese graphics site. Some of the links are in Japanese and show as squares on my computer. I click the squares until I find what I want. In fact, I go on foreign language sites all the time and click click click until I find something that looks interesting.

Isn't the cover of The WREX Magazine cool and pretty?

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
July 30, 2002 - 08:55 am
Justin, the Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma is located in Durant, Oklahoma. William Durant was Chief from 1937 to 1948. This is not Will Durant who wrote the book we're discussing.

Mal

MaryPage
July 30, 2002 - 09:13 am
ROBBY, re the power of "money changers" or, in reality, bankers; no, the power was not always real, as there were always higher powers (speaking of earthly ones here) to squelch that power. When we get to medieval times, we will see ghastly examples of this being done.

Jere Pennell
July 30, 2002 - 10:41 am
In the Japanese society where the teaching and training was done by the master/guru/artisan to the apprentice/disciple/craftsman, the teacher always challenged the student to excel the teacher. The teacher receives great honor when his student exceeds him as does the student. The student is taught that this will give great honor to the teacher/parent. So it does.

Whether this concept applies to any society where the teaching/training is done on a master/apprentice basis I do not know. However I was taught that the Masters degree came from the feudal period with the Masterpiece or Thesis the basis for judgement and the highest accolade was reserved for the Doctor whether it was of medicine or any other recognised discipline.

Discussions with craftsmen from Germany, Italy and Austria as recent as 8 years ago tell me it is still happening.

Say it isn't so.

Jere

robert b. iadeluca
July 30, 2002 - 01:34 pm
Jo70:--Welcome to our discussion group!! Apparently the Will Durant you mentioned wasn't the Will Durant, Historian, whom we follow here. However, stay and talk with us. We are finding out the most amazing things about Mankind.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 30, 2002 - 01:55 pm
"Our" Will Durant says:--"The most important people in the contemporary political world is modest in stature, averaging five feet three-and-a-half inches for the men, four feet ten-and-a-half inches for the women. One of their great warriors, Tamura Maro, was described as a 'man of very fine figure...five feet five inches tall.' Some dieticians believe that this brevity is due to insufficiency of lime in the Japanese diet, due in turn to lack of milk, and this to the expensiveness of grazing areas in so crowded a land. Such a theory, like everything in dietetics, must be looked upon as highly hypothetical.

"The women seem fragile and weak, but probably their energy, like that of the men, is one of nervous courage rather than of physical strength, and cannot be seen outside of emergencies. The dainty grace of the women is a typical product of Japanese art.

"Even in the early days of Kyoto's leadership every male of quality rouged his cheeks, powdered his face, sprinkled his clothes with perfume, and carried a mirror with him wherever he went. Powder has been for centuries the female complexion of Japan. Fashionable ladies rouged their cheeks, colored their nails, and occasionally gilded the lower lip. To complete their toilette, sixteen articles were required in the seventeenth century, and twenty in the eighteenth. They recognized fifteen styles of front hair and twelve styles of back hair. They shaved their eyebrows, painted 'crescent moons' or other forms in their place, or substituted for them two little black spots high up on the forehead, to match their artifically blackened teeth.

"To construct the architecture of a woman's hair was a task that took from two to six hours of expert labor. In the Neian epoch the majority of the men shaved the crown of the head, gathered the rest in a queue, and laid the queue athwart the crown so as to divide in into equal halves. Beards, though sparse, were a necessity. Those who had none by nature wore false ones, and a pair of tweezers for the care of the beard was furnished to every guest at any fashionable house."

Wears you out just to read it!!

Robby

Justin
July 30, 2002 - 04:03 pm
Mal; Jo70 had asked about Wil Durant and the Choctaw Indians. I appreciate the response but I also want give credit where credit is due- to Jo70. Welcome Jo70. Stay and talk to us. We are happy to have you and hope you will find pleasure in the Greek civilization when we soon arrive in that world.

Malryn (Mal)
July 30, 2002 - 05:16 pm
Thank you, Justin.
Welcome, Jo70. Nice to have you here.
Now I'm going to sit in front of my dressing table mirror and spend several hours powdering my face and fixing my hair.

Mal

OrchidLady
July 30, 2002 - 06:10 pm
I'm just getting caught up with a little bit of what has been said so far. I'm too far behind to contribute much, but I just read the link Mal gave to Japanese New Year traditions.

I could not help but contrast them with our idea of how to celebrate a new year. They try to prepare for the coming year, cleaning houses, paying debts, getting as much as possible in good order for the coming year. We go out New Years Eve, some of us get drunk, and are sick the next day. Those who can watch a parade and a football game. And that's it.

I am by no means subservient in attitude to the customs of other and older civilizations, I generally feel the way we do things in this country is usually basically sound in most respects. But there are times that it is quite clear to me that we could learn a lot from the commonsense practices, and self discipline of other cultures. Since we seem to be getting more acquisitive by the day, and more self indulgent, we seem to be in need of a definite complete moral overhaul (for want of a better way to put it). Louise

Justin
July 30, 2002 - 10:43 pm
Louise: I tend to agree. New year practices in the US include some traditions that are not only worthless but also destructive. People have "gone out on the town," drinking on New year's eve, as far back as I can remember. A few drive home, drunk, in the early hours, in reckless disregard for the lives of innocent people. It would be nice if we could find some worthwhile tradition that people could follow that would not require a mix of drinking and driving. Staying at home to watch a ball fall in Manhattan is not much of an entertainment. We need a way to celebrate that involves the family. When Mom and Dad go out on New Year's Eve, the kids are left with baby sitters and are left out of the celebration. Families in the US must try to find their own tradition for New Year's Eve and Day. The Japanese have a tradition that sounds admirable. I hope they follow it.

Bubble
July 31, 2002 - 01:12 am
Mal, powdering in this heat would make it cake!



Even the Japanese kimono takes time to put it on properly, unlike a dress that you just slip on. My kimono has two different separate belts to tie before putting the external showy obi on. That of course is because kimonos have to be adjusted to the individual height of the wearer. I will have to look for a picture to post.
Bubble

Bubble
July 31, 2002 - 01:15 am
A Japanese in chat told me they have numerous festivals there and at least once a month, on 1/1. 2/2, 3/3 etc... At least it is easy to remember the dates like that? Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
July 31, 2002 - 03:12 am
Bubble:--Why not ask your Japanese friend to join us here?

And Jere, any of your friends in the Japanese discussion group that might like to join us here?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 31, 2002 - 03:30 am
"Japanese costume, in the Nara age, imitated the Chinese, with tunic and trousers covered by a tight robe. In the Kyoto period the robe became looser and multiple. Men as well as women wore from two to twenty superimposed robes, whose colors were determined by the rank of the wearer, and provided many prismatic displays at the edges of the sleeves. At one time the lady's sleeves reached below her knees, and bore, each of them, a little bell that tinkled as she walked.

"On days when the streets were wet from rain or snow, they walked on wooden slippers raised by wooden cleats an inch or so about the earth. In the Tokagawa era dress became so extravagant that the shoguns, careless of history, tried to check it by sumptuary laws. Slk-lined and embroidered breeches and socks were outlawed, beards were forbidden, certain ways of wearing the hair was proscribed, and at times the police were instructed to arrest anyone wearing fine garments in the street.

"Occasionally these laws were obeyed. For the most part they were circumvented by the ingenuity of human folly. In time the rage for plural robes abated, and the Japanese became one of the most simply, modestly and tastefully dressed of peoples."

What have we learned about the clothes that people wear and the attempts to stop them from doing so? Are we in these times any different in this respect from those in Ancient times? Is the Occident any different from those in the Orient? Who remembers the see-through blouse? the micro-skirt? the four-inch heels? The magic bra? How about very long hair on the part of the male? Hair of all hues and colors by males?

Any difference between the shoguns of that era and the "morals police" of some of today's Eastern nations? Do we have the equivalent of morals police in our Western civilizations? Durant says that the shoguns, in trying to change modes of dress, were "careless of history" and that for the most part "these laws were circumvented."

Your reactions, please?

Robby

Bubble
July 31, 2002 - 03:31 am
Did you think I would omit that? Some people aren't interested in reading or learning. I was asked if many young women participated. The senior mention put a damper! Sorry. Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
July 31, 2002 - 03:39 am
Yes, Bubble, we are a bunch of old codgers who live in the past, aren't we? (And I don't mean Ancient civilization)>

Robby

Bubble
July 31, 2002 - 03:43 am
Each civilisation has gone to a period of craziness in dress. In France,it was during the Louis XIV period with all the lace and flounces on men. Even the French comedian Moliere painted and ridiculized on stage those "precious" men and women of his time.



See through, platform shoes, micro skirt, of course we still remember those, as well as the "holes" cut off strategic places in garnments. We still see rainbow colored hair on teens and nail varnish of all hues, sometime a different one for each finger and toe. Piercing, tattoes, and what next.



I remember that trousers and specially jeans were forbidden wear at school because it was considered too suggestive. Girls used to wear them under their skirt and removed the skirt as soon as they passed through the school gates. The nuns could do nothing about it althought they tried to hint the conduct grades would be lowered.
Bubble



P.S. well, Robby, we are good antiques!

Bubble
July 31, 2002 - 05:12 am
http://www.jigzone.com/mpc/view.php?9BK6Z7B0



http://www.jigzone.com/mpc/view.php?F5K6ZG72



I tried to make the pictures as compact as possible. I hope they stayed clear enough to see the beautiful hand painting design of cherry blossoms in pinks and gold. This was a wedding present I received from my bro-in -law who was in Japan on business at the time. Bubble

Bubble
July 31, 2002 - 05:38 am
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=585&e=1&cid=585&u=/nm/20020731/sc_nm/australia_fossils_dc_1

OrchidLady
July 31, 2002 - 06:36 am
Robby, I think we have a variety of "fashion police " here - it is the power of money. First, what one wears, to some extent, determines how much money one can earn in a job. There are exceptions, of course, but picture a woman coming in for a job, tight jeans, skimpy top, tatoos, spike hair, etc. etc. the whole picture.

Let us say she comes into a brokerage house, one whch is initiating a training program for would be traders. The young lady might come in with a very good degree from a first class school of economics, and this would make the interviewer think about her for a few minutes probably. But she isn't likely to be taken on. And if she doesn't have outstanding educational credentials, she will get short shrift in most "upper level" employment opportunities.

Fashion determines how one is perceived. A woman like that is perceived as uneducated in many circles, and will be treated as such. If she and her husband buy a home in say, Falmouth, which is a lovely town outside Portland - and they have to have access to at least a third of a million to get any home there - and she dresses like this, she will be ignored at say, a meeting of the library board, one of the educational events at Audubon, etc. etc. The women there wear dockers, L.L.Bean clothes, LandsEnd, etc. Tailored gabardine pants, turtle neck sweaters, wool and hand knit, etc. etc. and they are "fashion police"of a sort.

There are exceptions to this, of course, --if one is an established and successful artist, non-conformity in dress would be accepted, but unless you come into the town with credentials, then what you wear is the first test to passs - if you get past that, how you speak, what you talk about, where you went to school, etc. are the next barriers.

Louise


ashion police" -

Malryn (Mal)
July 31, 2002 - 07:31 am
I think in the United States we are influenced by the dictates of fashion and style, whereas in Japan the influence was tradition.

Clothes have often been a symbol of how rich or poor one is. I have thought that only in a rich country would people dress in jeans and overalls and tee shirts -- fashionable grunge. It's the label that counts in the States. Ralph Lauren jeans are not cut and made the same way or from the same fabric as jeans from KMart.

At the moment semi-nudity seems to be "in" with women's clothes. So does the anorexic look. This is quite different from the days of President Taft when opulence in everything, including shape, was the norm. The pendulum swings. I am waiting for it to swing back to the Sweater Girl era of the forties when dressing up was expected for certain occasions and women's evening clothes looked like ball gowns. Of course, most designers today are men, and we women wear what men want to see.

As far as "fashion police" are concerned here, there are some, of course. What held some women back when I was younger was ourselves. We had the idea that we should never look "cheap". Seductive clothes like very low necklines and tight, tight skirts were "cheap" and had a sexual significance. No "lady" wanted to be mistaken for a streetwalker. This is in contrast to today when almost anything goes.

I've always been interested in clothes; have designed some women's clothes in the past, which were made and worn. I began designing clothes when I was a little girl. The biggest job I ever had was designing an entire trousseau for a bride. The seamstress who sewed those clothes told the bride I was a fine designer, but it would be nice if I'd learn something about sewing. I took the hint and did.

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
July 31, 2002 - 08:16 am
Below is a link to a page about ancient Japanese dolls. Many are dressed in the costume of the period in which they were made.

JAPANESE DOLLS

Malryn (Mal)
July 31, 2002 - 08:22 am
Below is a link to a page about cosmetic surgery in Asia.

CHANGING FACES

Bubble
July 31, 2002 - 09:01 am
What an article on cosmetic surgery. Scary. It is done in the whole world, but not on that scale I believe. Here people never boast about a nose job or anything else, so it is difficult to know how many there are.



Simon Peres did have his drooping eyebrows raised, so as to look more convivial on television.

MaryPage
July 31, 2002 - 10:25 am
It seems to me every single generation has attempted to seem outrageous in their choice of dress. Outrageous, that is, to the older generations. WE are different from you, seems to be the word. I know I felt some of that. I shoved the sleeves of my lovely sweaters up almost to my shoulder, ruining them. I slopped around in my loafers, rather than putting my feet all the way in them, thus crumpling down the backs. It was a "this is now" statement, no question.

LOUISE, there must be Japanese in me somewhere. I have never gotten drunk on New Year's Eve. Have rarely stayed up to see the New Year in, though I did attempt it a few times when young. Have never watched a New Year parade or football game. Admittedly, I have never watched a football game, except when my son played or my daughters were cheer leaders or it was Army vs Navy. I think your analysis is absolutely right on, but the advent of the New Year has always meant the same thing to me as to the Japanese. Square all your debts, monetary and otherwise, clean your dwelling place, contemplate the past and plan the future. It appears as good a place as any to do an assessment and make called for changes.

OrchidLady
July 31, 2002 - 10:32 am
MARY, you made a good observation - the beginning of the New Year is a good time to contemplate the past and plan the future.

I think having a specific time to assess one's life, and make plans to change whatever we feel needs to be changed is a splendid idea. Too bad we don't have a tradition like that in this country. Louise

Justin
July 31, 2002 - 12:27 pm
The fashion police were active when I was a boy at the Jersey Shore. Men and boys could not enter the beach without a top. Policemen arrested violators. Women wearing rubber bathing suits were similarly proscribed. When one purchased beach access tags for the season one signed an affidavit agreeing not to appear on the beach wearing improper dress.

Jere Pennell
July 31, 2002 - 01:49 pm
Dainty is perceived because it is an art. the Japanese women do not lack for strength no matter how dainty they seem. The men do not carry things for them and if you walk a half a mile home with several grocery bags then you build muscle.

New Year's celebration. One of the less reported rituals is the practice of the first visit of the year to ones temple, shrine or church called Hatsumode. Then one goes visiting ones friends afterwards renewing acquaintanceships usually over a very small cup (size of a thimble) of spiced sake. If there has been problems with someone then he/she is not visited meaning they are on the outside of ones circle of friends and family.

Thanks to Bubble you know how difficult and warm a kimono is to wear. In the summertime cotton yukata is the custom but not for formal occasions.

Mal said about fashion, "in Japan, tradition rules fashion." Here are some various fashion rules. No short sleeves for men or the color white for women until after June first and before September 1st. - The color red is reserved for women. - The long hanging sleeves on the women's kimono mentioned by Mal I think, indicates that the wearer is single. - Married women wear kimono with shorter sleeves and darker colors with the darkest colors, dark blue and black reserved for the Grandmother. -Teachers and business people wear suits with white shirts and that includes women. I have seen many women with three pieces suits and short skirts riding bicycles to work.

Jere

Bubble
July 31, 2002 - 01:58 pm
Jere, I thought the kind of bow on the back of the obi indicated if the woman was married or not? It the fold is empty it is for a single girl, if it has a kind of padding inside the fold it is for a married one. Or maybe it is vice versa. I do not remember now! Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
July 31, 2002 - 02:56 pm
When I was in Paris right after the war, the women wore broad brimmed hats on St. Catherine's Day to indicate that they were single.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 31, 2002 - 03:03 pm
"Nor did they yield to any other nation in habits of cleanliness. Among those who could afford it, clothes were changed three times a day, and poor as well as rich bathed the body daily. In the villages the people bathed in tubs outside their doors in summer, while gossiping industriously with their neighbors. Hot baths at 110 degrees Fahrenheit were used as a method of keeping warm in winter.

"Diet was simple and wholesome until luxury came. The early Chinese descriptions of the Japanese noted that 'they are a long-lived face, and persons who have reached one hundred years are very common.' The staple food of the people was rice, to which were addded fish, vegetables, sea-weed, fruit and meat according to income. Meat was a rare dish except among the aristocracy and the soldiery. On a regimen of rice, a little fish and no meat, the coolie developed good lungs and tough muscles, and could run from fifty to eighty miles in twenty-four hours without distress. When he added meat, he lost this capacity.

"The emperors of the Kyoto period made pious efforts to enforce Buddhist dietary laws by forbidding the slaughter or eating of animals. When the people found that the priests themselves clandestinely violated these laws, they took to meat as a delicacy, and used it to excess whenever their means permitted."

Robby

Justin
July 31, 2002 - 03:24 pm
The priests are at it again. It's a sin for you and ok for me. Priests are the same the world over, I guess.

Éloïse De Pelteau
July 31, 2002 - 06:29 pm
I am happy to notice that more women are wearing dresses for work in Montreal's business district. Also here some dress like men, a kind of suit and tie, but others prefer to wear pretty dresses. Those working in offices tend not to bare as much as others. Their boss wouldn't like it. That means there is still some kind of decorum. Of course men wear the traditional suit, never to change much over the years. Will they ever to back to wearing fancy clothes such as those worn a few centuries ago? I doubt it. The tie seems to recede somewhat and sometimes you see anchormen wearing T shirts under a suit jacket.

Interesting to note that the coolie lost his capacity to run more than fifty miles in one day if he ate meat. I wonder what caused this phenomenon because in the West don't marathon runners eat meat? I am guessing it is because animal fat clogs the arteries.

Eloïse

robert b. iadeluca
July 31, 2002 - 06:42 pm
While we are discussing the Ancient Japanese family, here is a VERY INTERESTING ARTICLE about Japanese families today.

Robby

MaryPage
July 31, 2002 - 06:55 pm
When I was a child, it was a custom to go calling on New Year's Day. There was that thing about if the first person at your door on New Year's Day was a dark haired man, you would have good luck all year. I can still remember going in the old Model A Ford with my Dad and running up to the doors of the higher ranking officers with his card. All you had to do was "call", you were not really expected to stop in unless especially bade to do so. Everyone had personal calling cards in those days. Few still do, though I do. If you turned down the upper left corner of your card when leaving it, it meant you were just paying a visit, or call. The lower left meant conge, upper right was for felicitation and lower right for condolence. You always left, or sent by a servant, a card when someone in the house was in mourning. Sounds kind of Japanese, does it not!

Éloïse De Pelteau
July 31, 2002 - 07:03 pm
"I want my children to cling to something Chinese, but my husband doesn't speak the language at all,"..... "I speak to them in Chinese and they understand, but they answer in Japanese. My husband really wants them to be Japanese, but at least he doesn't interfere."

This really strikes home to me because my own daughter married an anglophone Canadian and the children go to school in French, but both parents want them to be fluently bilingual. The parents have to agree on what to teach their children. It's no use for the mother to teach children Chinese if the father wants them to speak Japanese. The kids will use what is practical for them, with their friends and later on at work.

I have 3 grand-children who don't speak French at all, they are Americans, 1 doesn't speak English, 7 are fluently bilingual, something they will greatly appreciate later on.

It takes a lot of determination to master two languages, a lot of time is spent practicing and it has to be a priority, otherwise a language can suffer from neglect.

Eloïse

Justin
July 31, 2002 - 10:09 pm
Eloise, you are so right. I have been reading French every day for much of my life but i have never successfully participated in conversation. I simply do not understand what the other person is saying. I think one must work at it constantly and Americans do not have that opportunity. Your grandchildren who are bilingual have a wonderful skill that they will appreciate more and more as they grow older.

Bubble
August 1, 2002 - 01:32 am
Robby, in French speaking countries, they say of a girl reaching the age of 30 without getting married that "elle coiffe la Sainte Catherine". Unfortunately I have forgotten all the references about that Sainte's life. Bubble

Bubble
August 1, 2002 - 01:35 am
The Ethiopians eat none or very little meat and they are often the best runners in the Olympic games. Different places and same consequence? Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
August 1, 2002 - 04:16 am
"More sacred than sake, to the aristocracy, was tea. This gracious remedy for the tastelessness of boiled water was introduced from China into Japan, unsuccessfully in 805, successfully in 1191. At first the people shunned the leaf as a poison, and would have nothing to do with it, but when a few cups of the outlandish beverage quickly cleared the head of a shogun who had drunk too much sake the night before, the Japanese recognized the utility of tea.

"Its costliness added to its charm. Tiny jars of it were given as precious gifts, even to reward warriors for mighty deeds of deeds of valor, and the fortunate possessors gathered their friends about them to share the royal drink. The Japanes made a graceful and complex ceremony out of tea drinking, and Rikyu established for it six inviolable rules that raised it to a cult.

"The signal bidding the guests to enter the tea pavilion, said Rikyu, must be given by wooden clappers. The ablution bowl must be kept constantly filled with pure water. Any guest conscious of inadquacy or inelegance in the furniture or the surroundings must leave at once, and as quietly as possible. No trivial gossip was to be indulged in, but only matters of noble and serious import were to be discussed. No word of deceit or flattery should pass any lip, and the affair should not last beyond four hours.

"No tea-pot was used at such Cha-no-yu ('hot water for tea') reunions. Powdered tea was placed in a cup of choice design, hot water was added, and the cup was passed from guest to guest, ech wiping its rim carefully with a napkin. When the last drinker had consumed the last drop, the cup was passed around again, to be critically examined as a work of ceramic art.

"In this way the tea-ceremony stimulated the potters to produce ever lovelier cups and bowls, and helped to form the manners of the Japanese into tranquillity, courtesty and charm."

For some reason, this reminds me of the pipe-smoking ceremony of the American Indians.

Robby

Bubble
August 1, 2002 - 05:10 am
Do they also examine the workmanship of the pipe after passing it around a few times? It that what is called the calumet of peace smoking?



To come back to Japan, do they also drink green tea like in China?



FRom what I have seen, the sake cups and the tea cups are very different.
I am so lucky to own a very old Japanese service of tea cups, exquisitely decorated in pink, almond green and light brown or ocher. The porcelain is so incredibly thin as to be translucid. It has no weight at all. It looks tiny in our big occidental paws. I am most careful when using them and fear of mishap when wiping them dry, they are so delicate.



My modern Japanese set is also made from bone China. It says MIKASA, Narumi-Japan underneath. The pattern is rightly called "Petit Point". It looks like an embroidered frieze of bicolored pansies and red poppies running around mug shapped cups. It came with its milk jug and covered container for sugar. The common special detail about both sets is that the cup fits snugly into a groove of the saucer and it cannot possibly slip even if you tilt the saucer in your hand. The quality and originality of the pattern always attract the attention of visitors. I also make a ceremony of my coffee pouring!
Bubble

OrchidLady
August 1, 2002 - 06:40 am
I'm not quite sure that the ability to be fluent in French is of the same value as it was, say, fifty years ago. One of course can read French literature in it's original lovely language and this is enables the reader to get so much more out of the literature.

However, English is the universal language now. Business is often conducted in English, and I think diplomacy also, perhaps with translators helping ; as we know pilots and control towers speak English all over the world; I am struck by the fact that when tv media people interview citizens of other countries, concerning some recent events, say, even the most illiterate appearing workman seems to be able to speak some English.

I heard a lecturer talk about some kind of international science conference being held in middle Europe, with scientists from all over the world. This was a year or so ago on PBS. The interviewer asked how this was handled, since students/scientists would be coming from many different countries,and wouldn't necessarily know each other's language. The lecturer said it was no problem, all of them could converse in English.

And several years ago, there was a small item in Time, I believe. It referred to a French science journal, very well respected, sent to subscribers in many countries in the language of their country. In some cases either there were too few subscribers in a country, or for some reason it was not possible to translate the journal into that country's language. So, in that case French was the language used.

About three or four years ago the magazine announced that they would no longer follow this custom of sending a French language edition to these countries. Now, an English language version is sent instead.

From many points of view, the language I would like to see more of our citizens learn is Arabic, in one of its variations, for I imagine each country may have a slightly different version. This is a major part of the world, and much of our difficulties now results from the fact that we simply don't know enough about the countries of the middle east, because too few people speak their language(s) Louise

Malryn (Mal)
August 1, 2002 - 07:07 am
Click the link below to see a page about the

JAPANESE TEA CEREMONY

Jere Pennell
August 1, 2002 - 09:38 am
The tea ceremony uses powdered green tea. Most of us familiar with green tea are using tea leaves and the product left after pouring boiling water over the leaves is a clear slightly green liquid. Not so with the tea ceremony powdered green tea. Powdered green tea produces a beverage resembling closely spinach soup but tastes somewhat like green tea. The flavor of the tea is not the same when it is powdered as when the leaves are whole. Why I do not know.

As a inveterate daily drinker of green tea I find that the taste of powdered green tea is at best interesting and curious and at the worst as something to be endured.

"To come back to Japan, do they also drink green tea like in China?" asks Bubble. Yes, they do. The powdered tea is only used in the tea ceremony and again I do not know why except for tradition. Most of the time or almost all the time, green tea leaves are used like in China to create the drink known as green tea.

Jere

Malryn (Mal)
August 1, 2002 - 10:42 am
The quote below came from THIS SITE

The first tea seeds were brought to Japan by the returning Buddhist priest Yeisei, who had seen the value of tea in China in enhancing religious mediation. As a result, he is known as the "Father of Tea" in Japan. Because of this early association, tea in Japan has always been associated with Zen Buddhism. Tea received almost instant imperial sponsorship and spread rapidly from the royal court and monasteries to the other sections of Japanese society.

Tea was elevated to an art form resulting in the creation of the Japanese Tea Ceremony ("Cha-no-yu" or "the hot water for tea"). The best description of this complex art form was probably written by the Irish-Greek journalist-historian Lafcadio Hearn, one of the few foreigners ever to be granted Japanese citizenship during this era. He wrote from personal observation, "The Tea ceremony requires years of training and practice to graduate in art...yet the whole of this art, as to its detail, signifies no more than the making and serving of a cup of tea. The supremely important matter is that the act be performed in the most perfect, most polite, most graceful, most charming manner possible".



Such a purity of form, of expression prompted the creation of supportive arts and services. A special form of architecture (chaseki) developed for "tea houses", based on the duplication of the simplicity of a forest cottage. The cultural/artistic hostesses of Japan, the Geishi, began to specialize in the presentation of the tea ceremony. As more and more people became involved in the excitement surrounding tea, the purity of the original Zen concept was lost. The tea ceremony became corrupted, boisterous and highly embellished. "Tea Tournaments" were held among the wealthy where nobles competed among each other for rich prizes in naming various tea blends. Rewarding winners with gifts of silk, armor, and jewelry was totally alien to the original Zen attitude of the ceremony.



Three great Zen priests restored tea to its original place in Japanese society:



1.Ikkyu (1394-1481)-a prince who became a priest and was successful in guiding the nobles away from their corruption of the tea ceremony.

2.Murata Shuko (1422-1502)-the student of Ikkyu and very influential in re-introducing the Tea ceremony into Japanese society.

3.Sen-no Rikkyu (1521-1591)-priest who set the rigid standards for the ceremony, largely used intact today. Rikyo was successful in influencing the Shogun Toyotomi Hideyoshi, who became Japan's greatest patron of the "art of tea". A brilliant general, strategist, poet, and artist this unique leader facilitated the final and complete integration of tea into the pattern of Japanese life. So complete was this acceptance, that tea was viewed as the ultimate gift, and warlords paused for tea before battles.

Jere Pennell
August 1, 2002 - 11:46 am
Thank you Mal for that post. I did not know the specifics.

jere

Bubble
August 2, 2002 - 01:27 am
How very interesting, Mal.
In Japan all is steeped in tradition. It is the strongest and most valuable building block. I see it lacking more and more in western world. Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
August 2, 2002 - 04:11 am
"The omnipotence of the father, in Japan as throughout the East, expressed not a backward condition of society but a preference for familial rather than political government. The individual was less important in the East than in the Occident becaue the state was weaker, and required a strongly organized and disciplined family to take the place of a far-reaching and pervasive central authority.

"Freedom was conceived in terms of the family rather than of the individual, for success or failure, survival or death, came not to the separate person but to the family. The power of the father was tyrannical, but it had the painless grace of seeming natural, necessary, and human. He could dismiss a son-in-law or a daughter-in-law from the patriarchal household, while keeping the grandchildren with him. He could kill a child convicted of unchastity or a serious crime. He could sell his children into slavery or prostitution, and he could divorce his wife with a word. If he was a simple commoner he eas expected to be monogamous, but if he belonged to the higher classes, he was entitled to keep concuines, and no notice was to be taken of his occasional infidelities.

"When Christianity entered Japan, native writers complained tht it disturbed the peace of families by insinuating that concubinage and adultery were sins."

Morals! Morals! As we look at Ancient Japan and all the previous Civilizations, who determines what is moral? Who, if anybody, is bad?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
August 2, 2002 - 06:19 am
I've found a wonderful website about the Japanese Costume Museum. After you click the link below and access the page, click the COSTUME HISTORY link on the side of the page to see marvelous pictures of clothing worn during the various eras of Japan's history. Be prepared to spend some time. Each page you reach has links on the left to more pictures.

JAPANESE COSTUME MUSEUM

Malryn (Mal)
August 2, 2002 - 06:48 am
In a search about morals in Ancient Japan, some pages came up about the relationship between Samurai and others with adolescent youths. In the case of the Samurai, these were youthful male apprentices. In one article what has become known as "the love which has no name" was compared with such relationships in Ancient Greece. This practice ( even mentioned in the novel, Genji ) was acceptable under Buddhism, but with the entrance of Christianity, it was not.

If anyone is interested in reading about this, two good articles are linked below.

FIRST ARTICLE



SECOND ARTICLE

Malryn (Mal)
August 2, 2002 - 08:45 am
Bubble wrote to me about the ancient game of GO. Go was born in China, where it is known as Weigi, over 4000 years ago. The game probably had its origin in divination and astronomy. "Ancient Japanese considered the Go board to be a microcosm of the universe."

THE GAME OF GO

robert b. iadeluca
August 2, 2002 - 09:07 am
I recommend strongly that everyone read Mal's links to the two articles, expecially the first one. Your beliefs may not coincide with what you read there but reading that will most certainly help to further explain the Samurai.

The explanation of the game, GO, is also excellent.

Robby

Bubble
August 2, 2002 - 09:23 am
Those links are very interesting indeed. To be compared with Greece when we get there too. This behaviour has been called immoral by those following the precepts of the Bible where it is explicitely forbidden, or so I believe. In the islands, everywhere in Africa from what I know, it was accepted as natural before the coming of misssionaries. So what are morals indeed. Bubble

Bubble
August 2, 2002 - 09:26 am
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/2164532.stm

Justin
August 2, 2002 - 07:31 pm
The boys who are the "victims" of Catholic priests know that Shuoku can be lots of fun. The priests know that too. So why all this fuss about victims and suffering years later. This one is really a conundrum. It must be a Christian thing. The men are sworn to be celibate but so too were Buddist monks. The Buddists reasoned that celibacy meant avoiding sex with women. Sex with males was considered ok. The Christians seem to interpret that to mean sex of any kind. Boy, that is a real challenge for any healthy person. Of course, in the US, pederasty is a crime but it was certainly not a crime in Japan where the Samurai practiced nonshuoku as a normal relationship. I wonder if Japanese society at that time would have frowned on sex with children of any age. In the US where the practice is a crime, we are concerned about children who can be hurt and in some cases raped and even killed. We have seen so many examples of that behavior lately.

MaryPage
August 2, 2002 - 07:56 pm
One marvelous thing about studying history in depth is that it splashes cold water on certain set-in-concrete beliefs. For instance, the widely held belief that all of our "morals" (as MAL asks, what is moral anyway?) have just recently gone to hell, and that we were pure as the driven snow in our illustrious past.

Just an aside, but to reinforce what we are learning here, I am currently reading a book titled: "Montaillou, The Promised Land of Error" by Emmanuel Le Roy Ladurie. This is a French book, translated into English, about a town in Southern France (before it was in France, actually) in the early fourteenth century. Now the facts in this book are right out of detailed testimony in trials held by the Inquisition and in volumes found in the Vatican Library. And guess what the people, including the priests, were up to in their daily lives? If you guessed exactly what is going on today, you would be correct.

Bubble
August 3, 2002 - 03:01 am
MaryPage, are we more moral or more civilized than then? Is it just a question of definition or play on words? Are we always the same?



I received a related quote today:
Is it progress if a cannibal uses a fork?
- Stanislaw J. Lec
Bubble

Anne Kerr
August 3, 2002 - 03:29 am
These comments reinforce my belief that human beings are no better or worse than they've always been....

Bubble
August 3, 2002 - 03:35 am
But why, Anne?
Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
August 3, 2002 - 04:07 am
Anne, good to hear from you! And your answer to Bubble's question would be of interest. And as you (and others) answer, the quotation by Voltaire (in the Heading above) might stimulate your thinking.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
August 3, 2002 - 04:26 am
"Six empresses appear among the rulers of the imperial age. At Kyoto women played an inportant, indeed a leading, role in the social literary life of the nation. In that heyday of Japanese culture, if we may hazard hypotheses in such esoteric fields, the wives outstripped their husbands in adultery, and sold their virtue for an epigram.

"The Lady Sei Shonagon describes a youth about to send a love note to his mistress, but interrupting it to make love to a passing girl. This essayist adds: 'I wonder if, when this lover sent his letter, tied with a dewy spray of hagi flower, his messenger hestitated to present it to the lady because she also had a guest.'

"Under the influence of feudal militarism, and in the natural and historial alternation of laxity and restraint, the Chinese theory of the subjection of woman to man won a wide influence. Society became predominatly male, and women were dedicated to the 'Three Obediences' -- to father, husband and son. Education, except in etiquette, was rarely wasted upon them, and fidelity was exacted on penalty of death. If a husband caught his wife in adultery, he was authorized to kill her and her paramour at once. The philosopher Ekken advised the husband to divorce his wife if she talked too loudly or too long, but if the husband happened to be dissolute and brutal, the wife should treat him with doubled kindness and gentleness.

"Under this rigorous and long continued training, the Japanese woman became the most industrious, faithful and obedient of wives, and harassed travelers began to wonder whether a system that had produced such gracious results should not be adopted in the West."

Durant tells us (as if we hadn't already noticed it) that historically "laxity and restraint alternates." Please look at the alternation just within the 20th century alone. Japan had a period of six empresses. Are we about to have six woman Presidents? As for the alternation of power between man and woman, would it appear, M. Voltaire, that what we now call "the war between the sexes" has been in existence for thousands, if not millions, of years?

Robby

Bubble
August 3, 2002 - 04:43 am
The three obediences are exactly what is asked of women in islamic countries. I am sure they never dreamed they resemble Japanese.



Do you think women presidents would be good for USA Robby? Or would you lose face with the Islam? Bubble

Anne Kerr
August 3, 2002 - 05:41 am
People have been killing, maiming, and otherwise mistreating other people since the beginning of recorded history. And no doubt before that.... Some "civilization" has taken place, but it appears that under the surface, the barbarism still exists.

I've heard from many people that "life is much more dangerous than it used to be". I just don't think that's so, I think the increase in communication, even instantaneous communication, has made it appear worse. Human nature doesn't really appear to have changed.

Malryn (Mal)
August 3, 2002 - 06:25 am

WOMEN AND WOMEN'S COMMUNITIES IN ANCIENT JAPAN

Malryn (Mal)
August 3, 2002 - 06:31 am

POEMS BY PRINCESS NUKATA AND OTHERS

Malryn (Mal)
August 3, 2002 - 06:48 am
The following quote came from HERE
Women in Samurai Japan



In early Japanese history, women play an important role. As well as the Queen Himika referred to in Chinese sources, there are other accounts of Queens and Empresses, historical or legendary, ruling unaided and in their own right as sovereigns and war leaders of Japan. These accounts continue up to the 8th Century, when the Empress Shotoku is said to have fallen so far under the control of a certain Buddhist priest, a Rasputinesque figure called Dokyo, that he was almost made her successor before the ascendant Fujiwara clan had him removed from the country. At that point, the Fujiwara took steps to make it impossible for a woman to rule alone in Japan, and there are no later accounts of strong or effective Empresses.1



But while there are no more great Empresses, this is not the end of women's role in the history of the Samurai. There are a number of great historical wives and mothers to Emperors, and until the 13th Century at least, women retained equal inheritance rights, even if they could not hold the Imperial throne. In the 12th Century it was Hojo Masako, widow of Minamoto Yoritomo who brought the Hojo regents to power. Masako - like many samurai widows - became a Buddhist nun on her husband's death, but her influence remained so strong that she became known as the general in the nun's habit. It was also a Minamoto's wife, Tomoe Gozen, who was one of Japan's most celebrated female warriors.



Through the course of Japanese history, the lot of women declined considerably from these heady days. During the Sengoku Jidai, the chief importance of women was in political marriages. Once in their husband's household however, it would be a woman's duty to spy on him for her family, placing her in an awkward and potentially dangerous position. Samurai wives would be responsible for raising children in the traditions of their class and family. They would also have control of the household finances, but this was primarily because commerce was considered beneath a samurai himself. A samurai woman would also learn to fight, but only in defence of her home.



By this time, equal rights were a thing of the past. Only men inherited, and adultery was defined as a wife sleeping with another man; a husband could only commit adultery with another man's wife. A samurai wife was expected to show the same loyalty to her husband as he did to his daimyo; as phrased in Nitobe Inazo's 1905 study of Bushido, she would annihilate herself for him, that he might annihilate himself for the daimyo. The shorthand was that the wife should act as though nothing but duty to her husband mattered to her.



Still, a wife's lot was better than that of a concubine, who would be held to the same degree of loyalty, but treated little better than a servant; an unmarried daughter might expect little less. In the event of a samurai's death, the women of his household might also be expected to commit ojigi, a form of Sepuku ritual suicide for a woman, in which she would thrust a knife through her throat.



From the 17th Century, women seem to have been regarded as essential for the production of children, but precious little else. Many writers of the time held that a man can never truly love a woman, and based on this principle a growing cult of homosexuality (as an institutionalised, rather than a personal sexuality) arose in the period, despite official condemnation. In particular, sexual relationships between a master and pupil seem to have become commonplace among the samurai class, and the importance of women in the life of men to have been further sidelined as a mere distraction.



Tales of women of courage and power continue up to the Meiji Restoration, but are far more scattered than in early history. Most common are women dying bravely in defence of their home, or sacrificing life, honour or dignity for the sake of her husband. A late example is Nakano Takeko, who distinguished herself in combat, wielding a naginata (a bladed polearm) in defence of a beleaguered Shogunist stronghold during the Meiji Restoration. She was finally shot in the chest, and asked her sister to decapitate her to avoid the disgrace of capture.



1 This is currently a matter of great debate in Japan as the child of the Crown Prince is a female.

OrchidLady
August 3, 2002 - 06:49 am
I do think there has been some improvement in the human race, certainly in some parts of the world, over the centures. Many of the beliefs of the oriental and muslim worlds have been rejected for centuries by the western world - just as an example, the right of a husband to instantly kill his unfaithful wife and her lover.

We have benefited from the Age of Enlightment. It seems to me that a judicious selection of Christian and Jewish moral teachings - discarding some, accepting those that seem reasonable, along with the thinking of the Enlightment philosophers and scientists, has contributed to what is, in my opinion, the superior values of the western world.

From what I read, the muslim world is buried in the middle ages - their middle ages, it seems. Perhaps our problems would be less if among many other things, they could be introduced to western philosophy. It seems that those countries in the middle east who have opened up their doors to the west, are getting only the dregs as presented to them by the popular media. But how could we stop this? Is it possible? Louise
Louise

robert b. iadeluca
August 3, 2002 - 06:59 am
Mal, your text on Women in Japan was extremely interesting, especially the last sentence.

Louise, Durant's seventh volume is "The Age of Reason Begins" -- if we all retain our strength and live long enough to discuss that volume!!

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
August 3, 2002 - 07:16 am
Wouldn't it be rather astounding, Robby, if Japan finally had an Empress again?

(Or if we ever, ever had a woman president in the United States?)

Mal

Bubble
August 3, 2002 - 07:33 am
Louise, would you consider Russians to be enlighten since most are Christians-orthodox? Are they still to be considered Oriental?
The greater number of murders we have had since the influx of russian immigration is mostly because these husbands feel they have right of life and death on their wives and children. The latest murder, last week heappened when a woman saw a cockroach on the ceiling on top of the bed where her husband was asleep. She woke him up so he could kill it since she hated those insects. He killed her instead , explaining that "she had dared" infringe on his rest. This couple have been educated, read all the western books, etc. They cannot be termed "primitive.



I do not want to generalize either. All Russians are not like that!

Jere Pennell
August 3, 2002 - 12:06 pm
"1 This is currently a matter of great debate in Japan as the child of the Crown Prince is a female."

This is important but the writer, not Mal, neglected to point out that not only is the child of the Crown Prince female, the children of all the other princes are female. There are no male heirs at all in the Family.

In addition, the Prime Minister, Koizumi, has mentioned publicly that he has no problem with having a Empress rule Japan. He, also appointed a woman as Foreign Minister, another first.

On an earlier topic, barbarism vs. civilization, just because Man is wearing skins and using hand tools does that make him a barbarian. If he is clothed in cotton, uses silverware and eats off a plate, then washes it in a dishwasher, does it make him "civilized?" China has always considered the rest of the world barbaric because they did not have the manners and culture of the "Middle Kingdom." Does/did that make the rest of the world barbaric? Someone's quote, because a cannibal uses a fork does that make him... has a lot of truth. We are on the verge of a significant conclusion.

Jere

Jere Pennell
August 3, 2002 - 12:24 pm
Thanks to Mal and some others here the role of women in earlier Japan has arisen. For whatever reason, probably tradition, the common woman today runs the family. The husband brings home the paycheck to the wife who gives him an allowance "kozukai" and makes ends meet with the rest. Someone expressed it beautifully when they stated that the husband makes the big decisions like who joins the UN, whether war should be declared, etc. and the wife makes the small decisions like where to live, what car to buy, what clothes to wear, where to go on vacation, etc.

The article that Mal linked to about the Multiethnic Love where it says that Japanese men are looking outside of Japan for wives because "to attract a Japanese woman these days requires a high standard of living."

The Japanese single woman in her 20's and 30's, working and getting good money, by living at home with her parents she does not have a lot of living expense. This gives her a lot of disposable income, which she gets used to as a single, which changes her outlook on life. She can afford the Gucci handbag, the Chanel clothes, and the vacation trips around the world. This is affecting Japanese society a lot.

Jere

OrchidLady
August 3, 2002 - 12:40 pm
LSea Bubble - I don't know what I consider the Russians. It is true they have been orthodox Christians - but they are also "oriental". I have mostly questions:

To what extent, if at all, has 18th and 19th Cent. European thinking been absorbed into their society? Has reading this literature been merely an intellectual exercise for the educated class? To what extent has the Orthodox religion become "frozen" in form, untouched by the application of reason? Lastly, what has 80 years of no ethical/religious/"social values" for want of a better word/influences had on the people?

I don't know enough to be able to answer any of these questins. Louise

Bubble
August 3, 2002 - 01:30 pm
Louise, it is hard to answer. Looking at the arts for example, they value as much as the Europeans the value of classical music, ballet dancing, opera singing and they certainly push their children to learn these arts. The state was offering facilities for the children with special aptitudes and they are offended that these facilities are not available when coming to Israel.



It is hard for me to answer if the religion has survived in spite of the communism. I don't know. The people I meet are those who came here on the law of return. They should be Jewish. Many do not know much about it, and the youth certainly do not look interested by it. I suppose it would be the same for the other religions.



But we are getting very far from Japan. Does Durant have a chapter on Russia too I wonder?
Bubble

Malryn (Mal)
August 3, 2002 - 03:16 pm
It sounds to me as if you think people who do not practice orthodox religion are not civilized. For thousands of years before Buddhism came to China, different kinds of philosophies were believed. Buddhism itself cannot be catalogued as an orthodox religion. I suggest that the crime the Russian man committed had more involved with it than a tradition of male superiority.

Anyway, to change the subject, the link below will take you to some beautiful pictures of Kyoto.

THE ANCIENT CAPITAL OF KYOTO

Jere Pennell
August 3, 2002 - 03:52 pm
Thanks Mal for the link.

The cultural capital of Japan, Kyoto, used to be the capital of Japan. It is quite close to Osaka which used to be the financial/commercial capital of Japan. Now both has lost those designations to Tokyo.

The practice of the Shogun who resided in Tokyo of requiring the daimyo, akin to barons and lords of Europe, to reside in Tokyo as hostage to the good behavior of the daimyo's army and province caused the merchants to come to Tokyo also. The court of the Shogun then became the cultural and financial center of Japan supplanting OSAKA AND KYOTO. The geisha originated in Kyoto.

Jere

MaryPage
August 3, 2002 - 04:02 pm
BUBBLE, you asked me if we are more moral or civilized now. Frankly, I think there are many ways of looking at our "progress" in these areas.

I think we are just exactly as "moral" as we have always been and always will be. We do keep shifting the rules, but we never change our instincts and habits.

I think we are less "civilized" now than we were when I was growing up; at least in this country. I say this because we are so rude to one another. Our nastiness is reinforced by daily lessons in vulgarity and lack of civility on national television. I cannot say whether this is true world-wide or not.

World wide we are perhaps growing less civilized each year as our interest in our pocket books clouds our good sense about what should be of interest to us regarding saving the human race from extinction.

Certainly we have made enormous strides in health, science and technology. We can eat better and live longer. Most of us do not want to accept the rules Science has discovered, such as not smoking, not doing drugs or over imbibing in alcoholic beverages or caffeinated ones, not over eating, and taking some exercise. I think we have as little sense as we have ever had, and I do wish our brains would improve.

Book knowlege grows exponentially, but the education we are giving our children fails the goal of preparing them for useful lives in this world more than used to be the case.

Bottom line, we have more lovely machines and more things to busily do, but we do not grow in wisdom and judgment as a species. Unless we can learn to accomplish this, we will become a failed species.

Jere Pennell
August 3, 2002 - 04:10 pm
Referring to Mal's link to Kyoto in her #319 the temples are far more interesting than the pictures show.

For example, the Gold Temple as it is described, Kinkakuji, is facing on a beautiful lake with large carp swimiing in it. The temple is lavishly covered with gold and hence the name.

The Silver Temple, Ginkakuji, is surrounded not with water as in the Gold Temple, but painstakingly raked "lawns" of white sand forming a sand garden with sand figures. There is a hill on the edge of the garden where one may climb to get an aerial view of the gardens.

The Memoirs of a Geisha is available from your public library or the bookstore translated into English. The author did a excellent job of capturing the flavor of the life and thoughts of a geisha. It is an excellent read and will give you an insight into the educational struggle, the politics in a Geisha house, the selection of colthing, and the problems of dealing with the men in her life. It is not salacious and will leave you with sympathy for her plight.

Jere

Justin
August 3, 2002 - 05:41 pm
Would a woman president be good for the US? In my judgement, the answer is "Yes". Of course, we will never know until we try a woman in the office. There have been several examples in recent years of women in the top job. Golda Mier, Indira Ghandi, and Margaret Thatcher come to mind- all successful leaders. There are several strong candidates among US women today and I for one would like to try a gal in the job before I am planted. Further, I have hopes that such an election would embarrass Islam and Fundemental christianity into recognizing that women have value beyond washing dishes and raising children. Further, such an election would serve notice that a woman is not an object that may be possessed. Women may be loved and treasured but not owned and they deserve the right to be all they can be in life. In the US, Abigail Adams told her husband when he was working on the constitution, " Don't forget the ladies." He did forget and it was not till the suffrage adoption in 1920 that women got the chance to show what they can do. Suffrage, however, was only the beginning. The best is yet to come.

Bubble
August 4, 2002 - 02:13 am
MaryPage - you are as pessimistic as I am on the whole. What you say about rudeness and elbowing others is true all over, from what I have seen.



Jere - The Memoirs of a geisha was written by an American, Arthur Golden.



Justin - from your typing fingers to the ear of God! May we have sane women taking the reins and striving for a more peaceful future.



Mal, you do know how to find fascinating sites, thanks.



Here is a site from the CIA to check each country we are visiting. I found it very complete modern info, even if not too up to date.



http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/


Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
August 4, 2002 - 04:12 am
Some wonderful exchanges going on here! Lurkers, come out of your hiding and join our conversations, even if only to say "I agree" or "I disagree."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
August 4, 2002 - 04:33 am
Following the new GREEN quotes above:--"The same devotion which speaks in patriotism and love, in affection for parents, children, mate and fatherland, inevitably sought in the universe as a whole some central power to which it might attach itself in loyalty -- through which it might derive some value and significance larger than one person, and more lasting than one life.

"The Japanese are not profoundly and overwhelmingly religious like the Hindus, nor passionately and fanatically religious like the tortured saints of medieval Catholicism or the warring saints of the Reformation -- yet they are distinctly more given to piety and prayer, and a happy-ending philosohy, than their sceptical cousins across the Yellow Sea.

"Buddhism came from its founder a cloud of pessimistic exhortation, inviting men to death. Under the skies of Japan it was soon transformed into a cult of protecting deities, pleasant ceremonies, joyful festivals, Rousseauian pilgrimages, and a consoling paradise."

Is there a message here?

Robby

Bubble
August 4, 2002 - 05:18 am
Why should one wear a hair shirt when life can be enjoyed?

Malryn (Mal)
August 4, 2002 - 06:45 am
Before we get too far into religion and philosophy, I'm going to post a link to a page about geisha today. This page is actually an ad for a book written by a young Japanese woman, but there are some good pictures, including one of a geisha at her computer.

The other night there were several geisha on "The Iron Chef" watching Marimoto and a chef contender fight it out. I certainly do see some interesting things on cooking shows.

GEISHA TODAY

OrchidLady
August 4, 2002 - 07:00 am
Sea Bubble - you are so right. Why focus on the bad things in life when there is so much that is beautiful. And why focus on our failings. We all know we have failings - the idea is to recognize this, and to concentrate on doing better; not on beating our breast on how bad we are.

I always figured hair shirts must itch like hell. Louise

robert b. iadeluca
August 4, 2002 - 07:12 am
It makes one wonder, then, why when Buddhism "came from a cloud of pessimistic exhortation," that the Japanese decided not to wear this "hair shirt."

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
August 4, 2002 - 07:22 am
I found the quote below HERE.
" The key to Buddhahood in Zen is simply self-knowledge. The way to gain self-knowledge is through meditation (which is what the word 'zen' means). Now, 'meditation' is one of the cornerstones of Buddhism, where, under the name dhyana , it forms the final and most important aspect of gaining enlightenment. But Zen (in Chinese, Ch'an ) or Meditation Buddhism granted meditation an exclusive importance not ascribed to it in other Buddhist schools. This is indicated by its very name: all other Buddhist schools either take their names from important Scriptures (such as the Lotus sect, which takes its name from the Lotus sutra) or from a philosophical position (such as the Consciousness-only sect) or an individual philosopher (such as Nichiren), whereas Zen takes its name from the practice of meditation.

"Meditation, which was a means to an end in other Buddhist schools, became the end in itself in Zen: meditation was Truth realized in action. As a result, Zen readily dispenses with the Buddhist scriptures and philosophical discussion in favor of a more intuitive and individual approach to enlightenment. Meditation, however, is a strict religious discipline: the mind must be made sharp and attentive in order to intuit from itself the Truth of Buddhahood. Part of this discipline involves waking up the mind of the disciple, making it aware of the things around it. There are several ways of doing this: motorcycle maintenance, hard labor, travel, and, in Japan, the koan, which is a question and answer session between disciple and master which involves sudden beatings and illogical answers all in an attempt to wake or stimulate the disciple's mind to make it ready for the discovery of the Truth inside."

robert b. iadeluca
August 4, 2002 - 07:26 am
Meditation through the tool of sudden beatings?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
August 4, 2002 - 07:31 am
Below is a link to a letter written by Nicheren, the Sharmana of Japan in 1272 AD. I found this letter when I was searching "Lotus Law".

NICHEREN LETTER

Bubble
August 4, 2002 - 08:00 am
There is so much here added to what is written in Durant's SoC. It makes me feel sorry that he cannot participate.



I liked the detail about the clogs color showing the level of experience of a geisha, much like the color of belts in karate.



Meditation. Do we know what that means in the western world? It is totally remote from the imposed silence of the contemplative convents, I am sure. Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
August 4, 2002 - 08:30 am
Bubble:--Please note the phrase in the Heading above which starts with "In this discussion group we are not ...." In my opinion, it is the back and forth here which makes this discussion so stimulating, in addition to Durant's own comments.

Robby

Bubble
August 4, 2002 - 08:34 am
I am in complete agreement. The thought just came that Durant himself would have enjoyed it too. Sorry if I expressed that badly. Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
August 4, 2002 - 09:01 am
Bubble:--You did express it well. I just seconded your comment.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
August 4, 2002 - 09:12 am
Below is a link to a page full of many, many pictures of ancient and modern Japan, which were taken in various different places such as Kyoto, Osaka and Hiroshima. Click the thumbnails to access larger pictures.

JAPAN PICTURES

robert b. iadeluca
August 4, 2002 - 09:45 am
Folks -- do yourself a favor! Click onto Mal's link "Japan Pictures." It's just like thumbing through a photo album. Be sure to click onto each photo because you see things in the larger photo that you don't see in the smaller photo. It's a very LARGE album! I admit that I only thumbed through half of them and will go back later to see the rest.

Interesting that signs in the baths and in the subways are written in English. The neon signs at night remind me of Times Square. I had no idea they were so bright. And Coca-Cola gets everywhere, doesn't it?

Go visit this link, people, and have a pleasant interlude visiting the Japan that the everyday person sees.

Robby

Jere Pennell
August 4, 2002 - 10:58 am
Sea Bubble

I did mean the Arthur Golden book, Memoirs of a Geisha. Because he wrote fiction he was able to give the thoughts of the geisha in the book.

Jere

Jere Pennell
August 4, 2002 - 11:14 am
The pictures of Japan in Mal's link are very interesting especially the woman's comments. The detail of the photos, like the inside of a subway card and the train ticket and the need to keep it until you leave the last electronic turnstile, are really amazing.

The "cage" of rice straw over the trees is to keep the tree from freezing in the wintertime.

The size of Tokyo Central Station is restricted by the surrounding buildings and subways lines. Ueno and Shibuya and other outlying stations are much larger because they could expand undergrougd as there are few or no subway lines around them.

Tokyo Central does have seven "floors" or levels of train and subway lines

Jere

Malryn (Mal)
August 4, 2002 - 01:36 pm
The photographs of Japan were taken by Christian Bauer, who I notice has a Danish email address.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
August 4, 2002 - 01:51 pm
"There were hells too in Japanese Buddhism -- indeed, one hundred and twenty-eight of them, designed for every purpose and enemy. There was a world of demons as well as of saints, and a personal Devil (Oni) with horns, flat nose, claws and fangs. He lived in some dark, northeastern realm, to which he would, now and then, lure women to give him pleasure, or men to provide him with proteins.

"But on the other hand there were Bodhisattwas ready to transfer to human beings a portion of the grace they had accumulated by many incarnations of virtous living. There were gracious deities, like Our Lady Kwannon and the Christlike Jizo, who were the very essence of divine tenderness.

"Worship was only partly by prayer at the household altars and temple shrines. A large part of it consisted of merry processions in which religion was subordinated to gayety, and piety took the form of feminine fashion-displays and masculine revelty.

"The more serious devotee might cleanse his spirit by praying for a quarter of an hour under a waterfall in the depth of winter. He might go on pilgrimages from shrine to shrine of his sect, meanwhile feasting his soul on the beauty of his native land. For the Japanese could choose among the many varieties of Buddhism. He might seek self-realization and bliss through the quiet practices of Zen (meditation). He might follow the Fiery Nichiren into the Lotus Sect, and find salvation through learning the 'Lotus Law.'

"He might join the Spirit Sect, and fast and pray until Buddha appeared to him in the flesh. He might be comforted by the Sect of the Pure Land, and be saved by faith alone. He might find his way in patient pilgrimage to the monastery of Koyasan, and attain paradise by being buried in ground made holy by the bones of Kobo Daishi, the great scholar, saint and artist who, in the ninth century, had founded Shingon, the Sect of the True Word.

"All in all, Japanese Buddhism was one of the pleasantest of man's myths. It conquered Japan peacefully."

Robby

Bubble
August 5, 2002 - 02:21 am


Last night I could not sleep for the heat and I was in bed listening to a talk show. People were calling and relating interesting facts about their life. I listened most carefully when a woman said she had just returned from a trip to Japan.



She and her husband did not take an organized tour but visited by themselves. In Kyoto they went to visit a Japanese temple famous in that the head is some monk/priest/lama who received a revelation. Since he and his temple have become great supporters of Israel even visiting often and collecting funds for our children. This place is called the House of Peace. The head abbot told them of a museum in Fukuyama (sp?), very little known, which commemorate the 1 ½ millions of children lost in the Holocaust.



The couple went there and were impressed by the display and most of all to learn that groups of students are brought there regularly to learn about the holocaust and make sure that it won’t happen again. While they were there, such a group arrived with their teacher. When they heard that the Israeli was a survivor of the Auschwitz camp (he had the number tattooed on his arm) the students asked him to tell them about it. There, in the middle of the exhibition hall, standing, he lectured for almost two hours in English with one of the students translating in Japanese for those less fluent.



The woman said, there was neither a fidget nor a whisper during the whole time. They begged him to continue when he thought it was too long. At the end, the abbot took a harmonica from his pocket and played the song “Dona, Dona” on it. Almost all, the Israelis included, had tears flowing by then.



I thought I would share this with you.



One more detail: on the front of the building there is a huge picture of Anna Frank. You all have heard about her. Audrey Hepburn in her youth looked exactly like her and the Japanese have a special fondness for her since she played in the film … Sanayara or is it sanayama. Sorry, I took notes in the dark and my writing is not legible. This explains why they chose that particular picture.

robert b. iadeluca
August 5, 2002 - 03:47 am
Bubble:--That is an amazing story! Every now and then we are brought up short realizing that we don't know about each other in various nations as we think we do. "Good" radio programs are helping to bring us together and hopefully the Internet will do even more.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
August 5, 2002 - 04:23 am
As an aside, here is an ARTICLE about the eating habits of today's Japan.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
August 5, 2002 - 05:41 am
"Buddhism found room, within its theology and its pantheon, for the doctrines and deities of Shinto. Buddha was amalgamated with Amaterasu, and a modest place was set apart, in Buddhist temples, for a Shinto shrine.

"Success ruined the later priests. Many became lazy and greedy (note the jolly caricatures so often made of them by Japanese carvers in ivory or wood). Some traveled so far from Buddha as to organize their own armies for the establishment of maintnance of political power. The priests assured the faithful that a man of forty could purchase another decade of life by paying forty temples to say masses in his name. At fifty he could buy ten years more by engaging fifty temples. At sxty years sixty temples -- and so until, through insufficient piety, he died.

"Under the Tokugawa regime the monks drank bibulously, kept mistresses candidly, practised pederasty, and sold the cozier places in the hierarchy to the highest bidders."

More of the same? Life moves on?

Robby

Bubble
August 5, 2002 - 06:14 am
Nothing new under the sun. Ancient Egypt knew this laxity too

robert b. iadeluca
August 5, 2002 - 06:32 am
"Those who do not learn from history are condemned to repeat it.

- - - George Santayana

Bubble
August 5, 2002 - 07:02 am
That matches very nicely the theory of reincarnation or is it metempsychosis? Come back until you see the light, then you become part of it. Bubble

Malryn (Mal)
August 5, 2002 - 08:12 am
The link below takes you to the Tokugawa Art Museum. Click PERMANENT EXHIBITIONS at the top of the page to see many artifacts of the era we're discussing.

TOKUGAWA ART MUSEUM

OrchidLady
August 5, 2002 - 08:39 am
Robby: Your posting about the state of the Buddhist monks just confirms my absolute conviction that no religious organization should get any financial support by law from a government. Any government, any religion.

When tax/government money goes to a religious organization to use as they see fit, it is a corrupting influence. To retain their purity of purpose, all religions have to be separate from the state. That permits them to keep their integrity, their purpose for existing, and frees them from the insidious corrupting of civil governments - they will not have to answer to any goverment official, only to God. Louise

Malryn (Mal)
August 5, 2002 - 09:01 am
I see nothing in Our Oriental Heritage which tells me Buddhist priests or other priests were affiliated with or supported by the government of Japan at that time. What we see here is a repeat of what we've seen in other civilizations when priests acquired too many riches from gullible people and too much power over them.

Mal

OrchidLady
August 5, 2002 - 11:25 am
MAL, my mind wandered, I guess. Reading about the Buddhists, I was reminded that in past civilizations, priests, church sects, etc. have become too powerful, having a strangle hold on governments directly, or on the upper classes who control governments. What it seems to have done, at least in European countries, is to vitiate the religious organization - it loses its moral force when it allies itself with the reigning government. See the Church of England, and I believe, some of the Scandinavian churches.

Other times the sect becomes very powerful, ultra conservative and fanatical, like the fanatical branchs of Islam , and the ultra Orthodox element of Judaism - and manages to control the lives of all the people, forcing the majority to live according to their rules, despite the fact that the majority of the citizens may not agree with them. The governments involved are too afraid to fight them, I guess.

To me it is best if any and all religions go their own way, without help from any government, and without any interfence on their part in the lives of people who do not believe in them. There is a fine line to be followed, and I guess governments cannot always follow it closely enough, but they should certainly try to. Louise

MaryPage
August 5, 2002 - 12:24 pm
I agree with you, LOUISE.

Justin
August 5, 2002 - 01:22 pm
I also agree with you. Religion and government acting together does not bode well for ordinary citizens. It encourages religious coruption and oppression of all citizens not just the gullible ones.

moxiect
August 5, 2002 - 02:43 pm
I have been reading the posts and to me, the human race is still evolving. Some civilizations have learned from the past and others have not. Politics and Religion do not and never will mix as long as the fanatics of mankind interupt the past to suit their own need for power. Proof - Roman fell from rule after a 1000 years because they tried to suppress an idealogy different from theirs plus the corruption within and power plays of its leaders.

OrchidLady
August 5, 2002 - 04:21 pm
MOXIE, I think too a factor in Rome's fall was the fact that they had conquered people of many different cultures, =everywhere from England to the lands of the eastern Mediteranian, and these people were not absorbed, not made "Romans". This was partly from Rome's policy of limiting citizenship, and partly from the difficulties that went with trying to absorb many different cultures at one time.

We are getting far from Japan, I know. But this worries me. One reason I am a strong supporter of the public school system is that its the best way I know of to make the children of immigrants into "Americans". Nations hold together when their people speak one language and have one "culture" - one official one, anyway, that all support. Take any of the Western European countries, they speak the same language in each country (except for Switzerland and Belgium)and share a common history. They are bonded together.

If this bonding doesn't take place, a bond strong enough to overcome regional differences, and inherited cultural preferences, then I think a nation falls apart into a number of smaller countries, who may or may not cooperate. Louise

P.S. I apologize for this drift from Japanese history. Where history and politics are concerned, I am pretty much an ardent fan. Louise

Jere Pennell
August 5, 2002 - 04:44 pm
To help the transition back to Japan do you think the present insular policy of Japan on not recognising anyone who is not racially Japanese as a Japanese meaning everyone else is "gaijin" (foreigner) goIng to create the same result as the fall of the roman empire and others.

It certainy can not be said the Buddhism or Shintoism had a stranglehold on the Japanese government. The last two or three ministers who lost their job, excluding Ms. Tanaka, the Foreign Minister, lost them because they spoke ignoring history or attended a Shinto Memorial service in support of the War II dead.

At 11 AM Tuesday all over Japan there will be a three minute period of silence and prayer for those who perished in the atomic explosion in Hiroshima. this will be the 57th anniversay of the explosion and it is still alive in the mionds of the Japanese. On the 9th, it will be repeated for the memory of Nagasaki. Thie Japanese remember three events the most, the two atomic attacks and the fire bombing of tokyo which does not have a period of silence to commemorate it.

Jere

Jere

Justin
August 5, 2002 - 09:29 pm
Rome fell apart for many reasons other than religion. Beginning with the fourth century, Christianity became dominant with only a slight set back for Julian and during the earlier periods when Christians were fed to the lions Christianity was only a mild nuisance. In my view religion and the state was not a major cause of the break-up.

When Japan attacked Pearl Harbor it was a preemptive strike. It occurs to me that we may be about to engage in a preemptive strike against Irag.

robert b. iadeluca
August 6, 2002 - 03:36 am
Durant moves on:--"As Buddhism had reached Nippon six hundred years after its entrance into the Middle Flowery People's Kingdom, so philosophy, in the form of Sung Confucianism, awoke to consciousness in Japan almost four hundred years after China had given it a second birth.

"About the middle of the sixteenth century, a scion of Japan's most famous family, Fujiwara Seigwa, discontent with the knowledge that he had received as a monk, and having heard of great sages in China, resolved to go and study there. Intercourse with China having been forbidden in 1552, the young priest made plans to cross the water in a smuggling vessel. While waiting in an inn at the port, he overheard a student reading aloud, in Japanese, from a Chinese volume on Confucius.

"By sedulous searching he obtained a copy of this and other products of Sung philosophy, and became so absorbed in their discussions that he forgot to go to China. Within a few years he had gathered about him a group of young scholars, who looked upon the Chinese philosophers as the revelation of a brave new world of secular thought. His lectures attracted so much attention that the Buddhist monks of Kyoto complained, saying it was an outrage that anyone but an orthodox and practising priest should deliver public lectures or teach the people.

"The matter was simplified by Seigwa's sudden death."

A most convenient death? Similar convenient deaths in our time?

Robby

MaryPage
August 6, 2002 - 07:15 am
LOUISE, again you make an excellent point. Peoples should bond together as one, and mutual schooling, despite race or ethnic background, plus a shared language cements very well, as it creates mutual experiences and appreciation. Religion should always be a personal, private family or individual matter.

Malryn (Mal)
August 6, 2002 - 07:24 am
It sounds as if priests wielded some influence in Japan. Sometimes it's hard for me to understand how and why priests have gained so much power throughout history. If they didn't have followers, there would be no one but themselves to preach to, isn't that right? There has to be a reason why people have needed to be led by priests. Is there a common need in human beings for some kind of religion and the leadership of priests? There has to be.

Jere, it is hard for me to believe this is the 57th anniversary of the atom bombing of Hiroshima. I remember the announcement very, very well. It was the summer of my junior year in high school. I was in the kitchen of the house where I lived in Massachusetts with the radio on and heard the news. I remember my reaction. I stood there not really comprehending what I had heard, since I knew very little about atom bombs. All I could think was that something very big and terrible had happened. I felt shocked. Only fleetingly did I think this event might mean the end of the war. Days later when I realized the immensity of the thing, I knew my reaction had been right. We kids had been brainwashed into hating the Germans and the Japanese. They were monsters, not people to us. That day all those years ago all I could think of was people who disappeared into smoke because of one bomb dropped by Americans. It was a terrible day in history, if you ask me. I hate war and all it implies.

Mal

OrchidLady
August 6, 2002 - 08:38 am
MAL, its strange in a way how people see the same event in different ways. I remember reading a headline about the atom bomb when I was coming home, with my mother, from visiting my sister who was in the hospital. I think I was in high school also, but don't remember what year. I'd have to figure that out.

My first thought was that it would not be necessary for American troops to invade Japan. I knew the Japanese would fight to the death to prevent American troops from conquering their country, and many of our boys would die. I was very, very glad that we wouldn't have to invade.

I did think of the Japanese who were killed, and I was sorry they died, but they had received warnings, and I blamed the Japanese government and their emperor for the loss of Japanese life. Americans, people I knew, had no desire to conquer or rule Japan, and I felt they had brought their suffering on themselves by bombing Pearl Harbor.

I am no idealist, and I know all nations can do wrong, including our country. But sometimes one country is the abvious aggressor, as were the Japanese and the Germans, and I prayed wholeheartedly that they would be defeated. As the days went on, I slowly became aware of the the tremendous changes that would occur in our lives because of the existance of that bomb, and it scared me a bit. But it never changed my feeling that we did what we had to do to win. I read enough about other countries, and the lives of people in other parts of the world, and what I read makes me thankful that I was lucky enough to be born in this country.

Re the power of the priests -and by the world "priests" I am including all religious powers, monks,ministers, rabbis, mullahs, etc. It seems to me the one and only reason they get so much power to start with, is that they convince their followers that they have a direct pipeline to God - all of them - and if one doesn't follow what they say, God will be displeased. So, their followers - follow.

I say this from the position of a deeply committed Christian, raised in the Catholic faith, but not a believer in most of its doctrines. I don't make a change to another Christian denomination and there are many fine ones, Episcopalian, Lutheran, etc. etc. as I am just used to the forms of the Catholic church, and I have "made my peace with them" - I pray in the Catholic church and take part in significant ceremonies. I believe one can do this, wihout believing that this church, or any other, is speaking directly from God.

To become mature, I think, you realize that God "speaks" to special individuals from time to time, and they try, in a very imperfect way, to tell others what they think the message from God is. But they are only human and their followers are human, so the "message" gets garbled in the telling. So, a believing devout Christian tries to understand the message, and listens to "ministers" of the message, trying to judge if what they say makes sense. If it doesnt, we disgard it.

But some people have to have positive assurance that they can never offend God and they look for somebody to give them that assurance. Thus the power of "men of religion" in most cases. The message can be unreasonable i. e. small, "you must not eat meat on Fridays" "you must not mix meat and milk" but the believer figures he had better follow it, just in case. So we end up with religions/individuals controlling the lives of others out of fear.

Anyway, MAL, I think that's why religious leaders get so much power. A wise, mature person treats religious leaders with respect, recognizes that he is (probably) saying what he believes, subjects his message to thoughtful analysis, and if doesn't sound like a straight message from God and makes no sense, throws it out -but still treats the religious leader with respect - he probably means well. Louise

Malryn (Mal)
August 6, 2002 - 09:05 am
Louise, there has been physical pain and loss in my life since I was a very small child. I think for that reason I have felt the pain of others and their losses in a very strong way. I have an actual physical reaction when I see someone who is wounded or hear of people who have been killed. When that happens, there comes a sharp and lasting pain in both of my ankles which dulls to an ache until I recover from the experience. The thought of so many people being turned into smoke and vapor or left mutilated and horribly disfigured had a terrible effect on me when I heard the announcement of the bombing of Hiroshima (or what happened here last September 11th).

I was a news hound through World War II, and talk of bombings on the radio by one side or the other gave me great pain. My reaction to the war was emotional and physical rather than a logical analysis of what was going on. The fact that the cloud produced by that bomb could further injure people over a vast territory overwhelmed me. It still does. Human life is valuable and important to me. When it is reduced to the number of wounded or lives lost in war, it becomes a very terrible thing. I can never view war as a strategic game with a winner and a loser because no one ever really wins.

Your view of religion and mine are at opposite ends of the spectrum. I felt as if "God", as others view this deity, let me down very, very early in my life. Any god I reached was through a pipeline through me, not through a religious figure, because for me if there was anything godlike in this world, it had to be in me. Finding and living a philosophy was far more important to me than finding God. The only one I offended was myself, and I did that quite well with negative results for quite a long time. I can understand your point of view and that of others, but there are many in this world (including Buddhists) who see things in a different way.

Mal

Jere Pennell
August 6, 2002 - 09:48 am
What I did not make clear was my point is that the Japanese are still memorialising an event on the hour that occurred 57 years later. We memorialize an event for a few years then stop. I wonder how long we will memorialize the event of 9-11 on the hour. The Japanese have long memories.

Jere

Jere Pennell
August 6, 2002 - 09:50 am
"The matter was simplified by Seigwa's sudden death."

A most convenient death? Similar convenient deaths in our time?

JFK, Hitler, Stalin, and maybe soon Saddam Hussein.

Jere

Jere Pennell
August 6, 2002 - 10:05 am
I do not understand Durant well in this matter. The religious "following" occurs when someone usually a monk explains a teaching like a sutra. If this explanation makes sense to you you accept it. If not you reject it. That is what the Buddha teaches.

There is the Mahayana School of Buddhism which teaches that all you have to do is accept a "saint" and believe in Buddha and you are "saved". The rest of Buddhism, Shintoism and some of the followers of Kung Fu Tze (Confucius) do not believe this. They are much closer to Mal's philosopy in that there is a "pipeline" between the believer and the source of knowledge. When the believer accepts and follows the knowledge, to the degree that he follows the knowledge he receives the benefits of that knowledge, meaning less pain, understanding of the world, and peace.

As most of the Japanese do not have churches in the Western sense and go to the temples and shrines on certain days to pray/speak with their ancestors, a religious following is hard for me to envision. The temples and shrines are special places where those who study religion full time stay and study. Therefore if I have a religious question, that is where I would go for a religious answer. The same is true of University if I had a secular question.

Jere

Bubble
August 6, 2002 - 11:30 am
Jere, here many still observe a day of fast to commemorate the destruction of the Holy Temple of Jerusalem by the Romans so many years ago.

Justin
August 6, 2002 - 01:30 pm
Mal: I know you hate war. We all hate war. But the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and the fire bombing of Tokyo were necessary. I am here today to share this discussion with you because we dropped the bombs. Next on my agenda at that time was a landing on the coast of Honshu. Those bombs saved several hundred thousand Americans who have been able to live full lives.It also saved the lives of many thousands of Japanese who would have died in a battle for their home Islands.

Bubble
August 6, 2002 - 02:15 pm
Interesting story: Japan Anger Rising at Telephone Scam Artists



http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=581&e=3&cid=581&u=/nm/20020806/tc_nm/telecoms_japan_scam_dc_1

Elizabeth N
August 6, 2002 - 04:20 pm
Mal, I honor your feelings about war and regret that I don't have that sensibility. However, I agree with Louise in her reactions to the war and also to the Catholic Church, exactly. I part with the idea of all countries being united by their own language. I think we are past that; the entire planet is united by English and that will become more and more solidified as the years go by. And I like the idea of the different nationality and racial groups in our country educating their own, and writing about their histories, and making movies about themselves. We need a united country based on a respect for many cultures not just the Anglo-Saxon ideal.

robert b. iadeluca
August 6, 2002 - 05:11 pm
Jere:--We still celebrate Veterans Day (formerly Armistice Day) on the same date that the Armistice was signed regarding World War I. There are still those who pause for two minutes at 11 a.m. on November 11th, to celebrate the signing of the Armistice at the 11th hour on the 11th day of the 11th month almost 84 years ago.

Robby

Bubble
August 7, 2002 - 01:11 am
Yes Robby, it is done all over Europe too on the 11/11. My mom was born on 11/11/14 at 11H.
Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
August 7, 2002 - 03:35 am
"The first Tokugawa shoguns took a fancy to Hayashi Razan, and made him their counsellor and the formulator of their public pronouncements. soon the young Confucian had so filled his hearers with enthusiasm for Chinese philosophy that he had no trouble in winning them from both Buddhism and Christianity to the simple moral creed bequeathed to the Far East by the sage Shantung. Christian theology, he told them, was a medley of incredible fancies, whle Buddhism was a degenerative doctrine that threatened to weaken the fibre and morale of the Japanese nation.

"Hayashi was enjoying an old age of quiet renown when the great fire of Tokyo, in 1657, included him among its hundred thousand casualties. His disciples ran to warn him of the danger, but he merely nodded his head, and turned back to his book. When the flames were actually around him he ordered a palanquin, and was carried away in it while still reading his book. Like countless others, he passed that night under the stars, and three days later he died of the cold that he had caught during the conflagration.

Nature sought to atone for his death by giving Japan, in the following year, one of the most enthusiastic of Confucians. Muro Kyuso chose as his patron deity the God of Learning. He dedicated himself to knowledge with youthful resolutions strangely akin to those of his contemporary, Spinoza.

'I will arise every morning at six o-clock and retire each evening at twelve o'clock.
Except when prevented by guests, sickness or other unavoidable circumstances, I will not be idle.
I will not speak falsehoods.
I will avoid useless words, even with inferiors.
I will be temperate in eating and drinking.
If lustful desires arise I will destroy them at once, without nourishing them at all.
Wandering thought destroys the value of reading. I will be careful to guard against lack of concentration, and over-haste.
I will seek self-culture, not allowing my mind to be disturbed by the desire for fame or gain.
Engraving these rules on my heart, I will attempt to follow them. The gods be my witness.'"

Are these the resolutions followed by Senior Netters in Books & Literature? Anyone here who continues to read while surrounded by flames? Any reminders here of the Autobiography of Benjamin Franklin?

Robby

Bubble
August 7, 2002 - 03:49 am
Alas that great thirst for reading is no more.I do not see much dedication or obsessive learning around me either. It seems that in life material pursuit is the norm nowadays.

Run, run, run and get, get, get.
Bubble

OrchidLady
August 7, 2002 - 06:28 am
Well, I try to follow at least some of these - moderation in eating and drinking, especially. And concentration when reading because I read a lot - I'm reading American Sphinx: the character of Thomas Jefferson" by Jos. Ellis now, and am also re-reading Founding Brothers, by the same author. I do concentrate when I read, I'd never understand a word of Ellis, if I didn't.

As for arising at 6:00 a.m. I usually do, because my cat wakes me up.but I could never stay awak until 12:00 - I'm usually in bed by 10::30 or 10:45 at the latest. I avoid falshoods, as much as possible, but like most people,I use "social" falsehoods - "oh, I'd like to go, but I promised to....etc." that sort of thing, to get out of something I don't want to do.

I think Bubble is right, there is not much thirst for learning, not in this country, I'm afraid. Just look at the trash on tv now, which people eagerly watch.

But then, I suppose in any country, in any age, it was always just a few who valued learning for its own sake, and felt it was important to attempt to grow intellectually, spiritually, etc. Probably things are not very different from what they have been in the past. Louise

Malryn (Mal)
August 7, 2002 - 06:31 am
Most of Muro Kyuso's resolutions are good ones. There must be several people in SeniorNet who discipline themselves in various ways. I know I have a schedule for work I do each day, including time for rest. If I didn't, I'd never be able to accomplish what I do. I'm up at 8, come into SeniorNet, then start my work. I rest a couple hours in the afternoon and am in bed by 1 a.m. usually.

We are readers in this household. I know my daughter and her partner go through several books each month. I read online, usually, since it's hard for me to get out to the library right now, and I can't afford to buy books. There is a wealth of literature on the web, if one looks for it. The other day I bookmarked the text of La Dame aux Camèlias by Dumas, which I'll start reading soon.

There are different kinds of learning. My daughter has just mastered doing Flash on web pages. One aspect of Flash is when you see words moving up a page and disappearing at the top. It's done with Java script, something I've been investigating, too. I use Java script in a minor way on some of the web pages I build.

Recently, I've been experimenting with computer graphics with a paint program I was given. Ever paint with a mouse? It's just like painting with a brush after you get the idea in your head that the mouse is your painting tool. Color blending and designing or creative art is done exactly the same as if you were working on paper or canvas.

I also write books; finished a forty chapter one not too long ago and have written eight chapters of a new one. This book probably will be a good deal shorter than the other, since it's light and amusing and doesn't take as many words as the more serious one did.

We are industrious people here who enjoy working and learning. I'm sure there are many others like us around.

Oh, yes. I seldom sit and watch TV, though I keep it on in the evenings sometimes for company while I work or write.

Mal

OrchidLady
August 7, 2002 - 06:40 am
ELIZABETH, I think people in countries are united if they all speak the same language in their own country. Differnt languages makes it harder to communicate, if nothing else. English is getting to be the universal language, but of course, English will change just as Latin did - the day will come when the English spoken in, say, Tibet, will be a totally foreign language to the people who live in Singapore, or France.

As for maintaining one's culture, that is fine if limited to special foods, holidays, customs like that. But there are elements in many cultures that are less "civilized" and when they come to this country, those elements have to be dropped by them, willingly or unwillingly.

For example, about 6 or 8 yrs. ago, in Long Beach, CA I think it was, authorities noticed that a number of Humong children, about 8 or 9, had died of a common childhood disease, dipheria possibly. So an investigation was done and it was found that in the Humong culture, if one was sick, you went to see the local shaman, and he told you what to do. In this case, the parents went to the shaman who said they should sacrifice a puppy, beat him to death, and he would take the illnesses of the childdren with him.

Now, there is no way this custom or others like it, can be allowed, or tolerated in this country. Gentle education is the first step to raise these people from the elements of their culture which are uncivilized, but the law has to be prepared to back it up. The Humong people, and all others who come here, can dress as they like, and eat their native foods, and sing their native songs, and speak their native language -as long as they also speak English so they can share in the life of the community - I am appalled when I hear that people who don't know a word of English get drivers' licenses. How do they read the signs? How do they know the laws about "right of way,": etc.- Louise

Elizabeth N
August 7, 2002 - 10:57 am
Louise, I see,in the future, people around the planet continuing to use their own languages unofficially but with English used in all public language. All our cultures have absurdities--the Pope says its a mortal sin to use birth control--but all people are responsible for recognizing and ignoring them.


And Robbie, as far as discipline in old age--I've given up on the concept, assigned it to my next life.

Justin
August 7, 2002 - 12:31 pm
I am also pretty loose on discipline. That kind of life for me ended with retirement. Now I do things when the spirit moves me.

Justin
August 7, 2002 - 12:45 pm
Several things happened in Japan between 1840 and 1870 that turned the country around and started them on the road to empire building. Japan had always been feudal in social structure with a Shogun at the top of the pecking order. A divine emperor existed but his power was minimized. In the 1840's the Shogun government was reformed. In the late 1850's Commodore Perry forced Yokohama, open to trade. The influence of the US and European nations entered Japan and thing began to change significantly. By the late 1860's the Shogunate had been overthrown and the country westernized by imitation. The teaching of Confucius was less influential in the schools and topics became more relevant to life. Among the many things Japan copied from the west was a tendency toward empire building. This was the beginning of a national attitude that led Japan to war with Russia, and with China, and eventually to war with the US.

OrchidLady
August 7, 2002 - 12:55 pm
ELIZABETH, absurdities are one thing - but vicious and depraved customs are another - for example, in many Islamic cultures a man has an obligation to murder his wife if he catches her committing adultry. In parts of India, if a wife's dowery is not paid by her family in full and promptly, it is considered acceptable for the grooms family to kill her. In Thailand, young children, both girls and boys, can be sold by their parents into prostitution.

There are many many more vicious and uncivilized customs in other cultures. Some can be "educated" out of the culture, assuming the people have learned English; some may be hard to eliminate and the law may be needed.

As for the absurdities, like the Pope's ruling on birth control, this is the sort of choice that the individual can make for himself. Personally, I am an ardent supporter of birth control - starting with high school girls (one of the girls who recently worked here has gotten pregnant again with her fourth child, and of course, no husband)-but if a person believes that birth control is wrong, and wants to act on that believe, that's her business/assuming the rest of us don't have to support the products of her belief.

Re English, I think you're right, English is pretty much the universal language now, and in time it will be more so. Each country will of course keep its own language for use within the country, and among themselves. But they will also be fluent in English, which probably they will have to use in many situations: educational, financial, etc. Louise

Justin
August 7, 2002 - 03:46 pm
I have no wish to prolong this discussion but do wish to add a thought. Some of the practices mentioned can be controlled. That's why CHOICE is such an important policy to protect.

Malryn (Mal)
August 7, 2002 - 05:16 pm
The quote below came from THIS SITE.
"More precious in a woman is a virtuous heart than a face of beauty. The vicious woman's heart is ever excited; she glares wildly around her, she vents her anger on others, her words are harsh and her accent vulgar. When she speaks it is to set herself above others, to upbraid others, to envy others, to be puffed up with individual pride, to jeer at others, to outdo others,--all things at variance with the 'way' in which a woman should walk. The only qualities that befit a woman are gentle obedience, chastity, mercy, and quietness.



"From her earliest youth, a girl should observe the line of demarcation separating women from men; and never, even for an instant, should she be allowed to see or hear the slightest impropriety. The customs of antiquity did not allow men and women to sit in the same apartment, to keep their wearing-apparel in the same place, to bathe in the same place or to transmit to each other anything directly from hand to hand.



"Let her never even dream of jealousy. If her husband be dissolute, she must expostulate with him, but never either nurse or vent her anger. If her jealousy be extreme, it will render her countenance frightful and her accents repulsive, and can only result in completely alienating her husband from her, and making her intolerable in his eyes. Should her husband act ill (1) and unreasonably, she must compose her countenance and soften her voice to remonstrate with him; and if he be angry and listen not to the remonstrance, she must wait over a season, and then expostulate with him again when his heart is softened. Never set thyself up against thy husband with harsh features and a boisterous voice!



"The five worst maladies that afflict the female mind are: indocility, (2) discontent, slander, jealousy, and silliness. Without any doubt, these five maladies infest seven or eight out of every ten women, and it is from these that arises the inferiority of women to men. A woman should cure them by self-inspection and self-reproach. The worst of them all, and the parent of the other four, is silliness.



"Woman's nature is passive. This passiveness, being of the nature of the night, is dark. Hence, as viewed from the standard of man's nature, the foolishness of woman fails to understand the duties that lie before her very eyes, perceives not the actions that will bring down blame upon her own head, and comprehends not even the things that will bring down calamities on the heads of her husband and children. Neither when she blames and accuses and curses innocent persons, nor when, in her jealousy of others, she thinks to set up herself alone, does she see that she is her own enemy. . . . Again, in the education of her children, her blind affection induces an erroneous system. Such is the stupidity of her character that it is incumbent on her, in every particular, to distrust herself and to obey her husband."

robert b. iadeluca
August 7, 2002 - 06:19 pm
The resolutions of Muro Kyuso led us to some thinking of our own on various topics but now, to return to Durant:--

"The young men of Ekken's time seem to have reproved him for his conservatism, for he flings at them a lesson which every vigorous generation has to relearn.

"Children, you may think an old man's words wearisome. Yet when your father or grandfather teaches, do not turn your head away, but listen. Though you may think the tradition of your family stupid, do not break it into pieces, for it is the embodiment of the wisdom of your fathers."

Any related comments from any of us "Seniors" here?

Robby

OrchidLady
August 7, 2002 - 07:25 pm
From what I can tell, many, many young people regard the ideas and thoughts of seniors as totally irrelevant in today's world. I imagine most seniors could tell you about the blank look they get from their beloved "grands" when the grandparent takes issue with some of the ideas of the younger generation. Try reading that last paragraph to most 18 yr. olds - only you would have to translate it into modern "cool" English. They probably wouldn't understand the paragraph as it is written. Louise

Justin
August 7, 2002 - 10:50 pm
When I was a parent my children often said my comments were not meaningful in their generation. Now my grown children are getting the same response from their children. The grandchildren don't laugh at me but they do think we grown-ups don't understand their problems. What I hear is " It's not like that anymore" or " Oh! Grandpa? Sometimes they listen but I don't think they really hear me. Often I wish I were a Chinese Grandpa. I could save them so much misery. I have some great grandchildren now and I have resolved to keep my mouth shut and watch.

Bubble
August 8, 2002 - 12:30 am
JUSTIN, we get exactly the same reaction here: "in your time it might have been true", or "you are not of these times, so don't give foolish advices". As you see the youth is very outspoken these days. Silence is the best policy to keep one's BP even.



MAL, are you sure your quote is for Japan? (wink) It seems taken straight from a manual for the semitic women on both sides. Bubble

Malryn (Mal)
August 8, 2002 - 03:22 am
My daughter and 27 year old granddaughter (my elder son's daughter) very much do pay attention to what I say, and I pay attention to them. It works both ways. I'd say we act on each other's advice about 70% of the time. Since I rarely ever see my two far away sons, we don't have much interaction, unfortunately. That reminds me. I'd better write to my New York son and advise him that it's a good idea if he brought himself, his wife and my little granddaughter down to NC. I haven't seen them for a year.

I think we make generalities about youths sometimes because we don't really know any. I noticed in the Online Gerontology Class here on SeniorNet this summer that youths and elders alike were very interested in what their generations thought and said. The only way to get younger people over stereotyped ideas about older people and vice versa is to get together and talk and really listen to what the other has to say.

I woke up much too early this morning, and after only four hours of sleep it's probably a good idea if I go back to bed. Now, whether I will pay attention to my own advice is a very good question!

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
August 8, 2002 - 04:19 am
"Japanese thought fell even from the modest level to which its imitation of Confucius had raised it, and lost itself in a bitter ink-shedding war between the idolaters of China and the worshipers of Japan. In this battle of the ancients against the moderns, the moderns won by their superior admiration of antiquity. The pro-Chinese scholars called their own country barbarous, argued that all wisdom was Chinese, and contented themselves with translating and commenting upon Chinese literature and pholosophy. The pro-Japanese scholars, denounced this attitude as obsurantist and unpatriotic, and called upon the nation to turn its back on China and renew its strength at the sources of its own poetry and history.

"Mabuchi attacked the Chinese as an inherently vicious people, exalted the Japanese as naturally good, and attributed the lack of early or native Japanese literature and philosophy to the fact that the Japanese did not need instruction in virtue or intelligence."

Any difference between that and present-day mud-slinging between nations and between the beliefs of Eastern and Western civilizations?

Robby

OrchidLady
August 8, 2002 - 06:36 am
No, I guess its similar now - between the Western cultures and the middle eastern and eastern-to the extent that I know about such things, which is not much.

It is also true of the EXTREME liberals -not you, Mal, this doesn't apply to you, you are quite liberal but you still have common sense, and can also make wise choices, from all I read, and it doesn't apply to the middle of the road liberals. The extremists feel every culture that comes along - the culture of each new immigrant group is far superior to our poor Western European, Judeo-Christian-Roman based culture.

Doesn't matter what it is, music, literature, laws (especially laws), if it comes from another culture it has to be better than our version. I note, however, when it comes to medicine,(except for some herbal medicines,.which some people find helpful) they are unusually silent, and they go to western trained doctors. Talk is one thing, but they don't take chances with themselves, when it comes to surgery or serious disease Louise

MaryPage
August 8, 2002 - 06:44 am
LOUISE, that business of driving in this country when they cannot read the signs bothers me as well. A lot!

robert b. iadeluca
August 8, 2002 - 07:36 am
As Durant moves toward the end, he discusses

The Mind and Art of Old Japan

and talks to us about Language and Education. Please note the change in GREEN quotes above.

"The earliest Japanese literature that has come down to us is poetry. The earliest Japanese poetry is by native scholars accounted the best. One of the oldest and most famous of Japanese books is the Manyoshu, or 'Book of Ten Thoudand Leaves' in which two editors collected into twenty volumes some 4,500 poems composed during the preceding four centuries. Here in particular appeared the work of Hitomaro and Akahito, the chief poetic glories of the Nara age. When his beloved died, and the smoke from the funeral pyre ascended into the hills, Hitomaro wrote in elegy briefer than In Memoriam:

"Oh, is it my beloved, the cloud that wanders
In the ravine
Of the deep secluded Hatsuse Mountain?"

Robby

OrchidLady
August 8, 2002 - 07:46 am
Robbie, that poem is beautiful. You can feel his grief

OrchidLady
August 8, 2002 - 07:57 am
MAL, I re-read your last posting. You're right, many of us seniors have very little to do with young people teenagers, or 20s, say - mostly teenagers. It would be helpful to seniors to be able to talk with teenagers, but along with an absence of opportunities, there is such a culture gap. The senior would have to learn to talk "teen" as many of them are so ignorant, and uncultured, they just wouldn't understand much of what a senior has to say. From what I read, msny of them scarcely know the name of the current president. Louise

Malryn (Mal)
August 8, 2002 - 09:11 am
LOUISE, how many teenagers do you know? You certainly don't know the ones I know, who are bright and interested, and who through their computers have had access to knowledge I most certainly didn't have at the local library when I was a kid. Frankly, I don't think these teens are much different from what we were when we were their age. Some of them are intelligent; some of them aren't. Some of them study; some of them don't. Some of them work hard; some of them don't. Some of them are well-mannered and respectful; some of them aren't. So, what's the difference between them as teenagers and us when we were kids, really, except for the fact that now we are older and think we know most everything because we've experienced more years of life?

Durant tells us that when Ito Togai died, this epitaph was put on his tomb:
"He did not talk about the faults of others. . . .
He cared for nothing but books.
His life was uneventful."
Togai wrote 242 books. If anyone thought about putting the above on my tombstone, I'd be the happiest person around.

Now I'm off to find out something about the Kokinshu.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
August 8, 2002 - 09:23 am
Mal:--Togal's epitaph reminds me of King George's diary in which he wrote on July 4, 1776: "Nothing of any importance happened today."

Robby

Bubble
August 8, 2002 - 09:34 am
Well King George was not in America that day.

MaryPage
August 8, 2002 - 09:35 am
check out the latest pictures from Japan over in Photos Then & Now!

Bubble
August 8, 2002 - 09:40 am
That little girl is so sweet! She seems very at ease in her kimono.

robert b. iadeluca
August 8, 2002 - 09:43 am
Here is the LINK to the Photo Discussion. You will see photos of Aki's family. Aki is well known and loved by many Senior Netters who correspond with him from time to time. He tells us about his life in Japan. Many Senior Netters have watched (through photos) as his family has gradually grown.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
August 8, 2002 - 09:44 am
Here is the LINK to the Photo Discussion. You will see photos of Aki's family. Aki is well known and loved by many Senior Netters who correspond with him from time to time. He tells us about his life in Japan. Many Senior Netters have watched (through photos) as his family has gradually grown.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
August 8, 2002 - 09:46 am
The only text I could find of the Kokinshu is in Japanese. I did find this page about Japanese literature which has a few fine illustrations.

JAPANESE LITERATURE

robert b. iadeluca
August 8, 2002 - 09:49 am
It is through photos like that that we get to know and love people from other nations and cultures. It is impossible to look at those photos and not think of our own families.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
August 8, 2002 - 10:48 am
This is what I was talking about when I described my reaction to the atom bombing of Hiroshima and the way I feel about war.

Mal

OrchidLady
August 8, 2002 - 04:32 pm
MAL, well,I don't know the same teen agers you know.I see and listen to conversations by teenagers each week in the library. I have met the grandchildren of a number of the residents here. So I have a passing acquaintance with them, and of course I read the papers.

I don't think I'd say there was little difference between teenagers of today and of my day, some 50 years ago. The environment is very different; the culture today is coarse, vulgarity is accepted by many people, they just laugh at actions and speech that I certainly never heard. Honesty is often laughed at, if you can get away without paying, that's one for you. Acquisitiveness is endemic. Teens want and want, and want, etc. They don't worry much about who is paying for their $125. sneakers, they see all the latest trash movies, at around $7.00 a pop around here, I saw pictures of the teen daughter of one of our residents at her JUNIOR prom. I remember the dress cost over $100. -don't remember what the shoes, etc. cost but it was plenty.

I don't need to discribe the home atmosphere most of us had. I remember once when I was about 6 or 7 I took a harmonica from the local five and ten - stole it. When I brought it home, my mother made me come back to the store with her, give the harmonica to the manager, and apologize. I also remember once, in high school, one of the girls left a couple of dollars, a bill and change, on the shelf in the ladies room, and it stayed there for a couple of days until the superior asked at morning assembly that the owner take her money. That wouldn't happen too often today.

The magazines and papers are full of dishonest business people, show business people, models etc. People who make hundreds per hour and thousands per week, who are selling their looks or selling their willingness to appear in movies filled with scatological and prnographic content. The affairs of promiscuous men and women are described in detail in the media, and sex is treated as a casual evenings entertainment

If anyone thinks it is possible for children brought up in this culture to be the same as children brought up as we were - that person must dismiss "nurture" as a factor in child development, and leave it all to nature. Louise

Malryn (Mal)
August 8, 2002 - 05:15 pm
I don't want to continue this discussion, Louise, but must say I have three kids and five grandchildren; have known and do know a lot of kids. Our positions and points of view are different, that's all. Thank you for telling me yours.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
August 8, 2002 - 05:49 pm
I don't think that Senior Netters are "typical." In general, we are courteous, considerate, educated (formally or informally), and both historically and future oriented -- in other words, well rounded. I would guess that, in general, this is also true of their families.

As for the "other type" -- they come from other families.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
August 8, 2002 - 06:12 pm

Your post made me smile, Robby. Generally speaking, I think there's a little of everything -- including "the other type" -- in all families. Did I ever tell you about the second cousin on my father's side who . . . . .

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
August 8, 2002 - 07:14 pm
The Manyoshu is the oldest and greatest anthology of Japanese poetry (compiled in the 8th c., and containing 4.500 poems.) Among these are many poems written by women of different rank. This poem is by Lady Sagami.


The under leaves of the lespedeza
When the dew is gathering
Must be cold:
In the autumn moor
The young deer are crying.




This poem is by the Princess Oku (661-701).


To speed my brother
Parting for Yamato,
In the deep of night I stood
Till the wet with the dew of dawn.



The lonely autumn mountains
Are hard to pass over
Even when two go together -
How does my brother cross them all alone!
Lady Kasa (in the 8th c.) wrote a set of 29 poems expressing her love (toward O. Yakamochi).
Here are two of them.


Oh how steadily I love you -
You who awe me
Like the thunderous waves
That lash the seacoast of Ise!



More thoughts crowd into my mind
When evening comes; for then,
Appears your phantom shape -
Speaking as I have known you speak.


From the10th century comes this impressive poem by an anonymous women poet.


Dreams, listen, my dreams!
Do not bring me together
With the man I love -
When once I have awakened
It makes me feel so lonely.

Justin
August 8, 2002 - 08:33 pm
I'm sorry if I started this bruhaha over teenagers. I was stereotyping relations between teens and grandparents. The truth is I have three daughters. Two daughters and I relate very well. They take my advice and I take theirs. One daughter is secretive and we don't tell each other much. I have seven grandchildren and some tell me things and some do not. Some, I know, think I am not interested in their activities, So I probe gently. A few think I pry. But that's the nature of the beast. I see them from time to time and say, How're ya doin? OK, Grandpa. Then I have to probe some more. Some don't volunteer very much. So let's get back to Japan.

Bubble
August 9, 2002 - 02:23 am
Mal, those poems are... rich in said and more so in unsaid. I am keeping the last one in my special file. Bubble.

robert b. iadeluca
August 9, 2002 - 04:02 am
As we move into PROSE, Durant says the following:--

"Japanese poems may be too brief for the taste of the Western mind. The most highly regarded of novels is the Genji Monogatari (literally and undeniably 'Gossip about Genji') which in one edition fills 4,234 pages. This delightful romance was composed about the year 1001 A.D. by the Lady Murasaki no-Shikibu. A Fujiwara of ancient blood, she married another Fujiwara in 997, but was left a widow four years later. She dulled her sorrow by writing an historical novel in fifty-four books. After filling all the paper she could find, she laid sacrilegious hands upon the sutras of a Buddhist temple, and used them for manuscript. Even paper was once a luxury.

"The hero of the tale is the son of an emperor by his favorite concubine Kiritsubo, who is so beautiful that all the other concubines are jealous of her, and actually tease her to death. Murasaki, perhaps exaggerating the male's capacity for devotion, represents the Emperor as inconsolable. She writes:--

"As the years went by, the Emperor did not forget his lost lady. Though many women were brought to the palace in the hope that he might take pleasure in them, he turned from them all, believing that there was not anyone in the world like her whom he had lost. Continually he pined that fate should not have allowed them to fulfil the vow which morning and evening was ever talked of between them, the vow that their lives should be as the twin birds that share a wing, the twin trees that share a bough."

Excellent writing or pulp magazine material?

Robby

Bubble
August 9, 2002 - 04:58 am
All is relative: you should first read it in the text: translations are not always faithful. Of course twenty volumes or more to describe one's lost love seems obsessive. Mal, could you do it?
Bubble

Malryn (Mal)
August 9, 2002 - 06:42 am
Bubble, I'm afraid that by the time I finished writing the tenth volume I'd be so sick of the guy that I'd be tempted to kill him off.

There is a discussion of The Tale of Genji in the Archives of the Books and Literature folder. At the top of the first page you access in that discussion are links which might interest you, provided by Barbara St. Aubrey who is one of the best (if not the best) web researchers I know in SeniorNet. The most poetic translation of these books was Arthur Waley, who translated some of the poems I posted last night. In 2001 a new translation of The Tale of Genji by Royall Tyler was published.

I own a volume of this long novel, but it is packed away with the rest of my books. If I ever have any money, I'll hire someone to unpack them and have a reunion with my long, lost friends.

Below is a link I took from the Tale of Genji discussion, a very good map of Japan.

MAP OF JAPAN

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
August 9, 2002 - 06:45 am

TALE OF GENJI DISCUSSION

Malryn (Mal)
August 9, 2002 - 08:36 am
One is in a hurry to leave, but one's visitor keeps chattering away. If it is someone of no importance, one can get rid of him by saying, "You must tell me all about it next time"; but, should it be the sort of visitor whose presence commands one's best behavior, the situation is hateful indeed.



Someone has suddenly fallen ill and one summons the exorcist. Since he is not at home, one has to send messengers to look for him. After one has had a long fretful wait, the exorcist finally arrives, and with a sigh of relief one asks him to start his incantations. But perhaps he has been exorcizing too many evil spirits recently; for hardly has he installed himself and begun praying when his voice becomes drowsy. Oh, how hateful!



A man who has nothing in particular to recommend him discusses all sorts of subjects at random as though he knew everything.

To envy others and to complain about one's own lot; to speak badly about people; to be inquisitive about the most trivial matters and to resent and abuse people for not telling one, or, if one does manage to worm out some facts, to inform everyone n the most detailed fashion as if one had known all from the beginning -- oh, how hateful!



An admirer has come on a clandestine visit, but a dog catches sight of him and starts barking. One feels like killing the beast.

One has gone to bed and is about to doze off when a mosquito appears and announces itself in a reedy voice. One can actually feel the wind made by his winds and, slight though it is, one finds it hateful in the extreme.



One is in the middle of a story when someone butts in and tries to show that he is the only clever person in the room. Such a person is hateful, and so, indeed, is anyone, child or adult, who tries to push himself forward.

One is telling a story about old times when someone breaks in with a little detail that he happens to know, implying that one's own version is inaccurate -- disgusting behavior!



Very hateful is a mouse that scurries all over the place.



A certain gentleman whom one does not want to see visits one at home or in the Palace, and one pretends to be asleep. But a maid comes to tell one and shakes one awake, with a look on her face that says, "What a sleepyhead!" Very hateful.

OrchidLady
August 9, 2002 - 10:46 am
Very good, MAL. The trouble is, it arouses guilt feelings in people. "Me, why I don't do that, I never do that, I don't talk about all sorts of things at random," etc. etc. So why should I have guilt feelings? It certainly doesn't apply to me!

Probably its good to read something like that from time to time, despite any guilt feelings that are aroused. I'll make a copy for future reference (although I know that I absolutely don't do ANY of the things mentioned and there is no reason to have any guilt feelings). Louise :<)

robert b. iadeluca
August 9, 2002 - 12:00 pm
It's a miserable life, isn't it?

Robby

OrchidLady
August 9, 2002 - 12:34 pm
That it is. Louise

Bubble
August 9, 2002 - 12:45 pm
Oh no, Robby! Mostly our outlook makes it so. There is always some piece of sunshine somewhere. Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
August 9, 2002 - 02:05 pm
If I say it is a miserable life, it is a miserable life! No one is going to make me happy against my will. This is part of my Oriental heritage.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
August 9, 2002 - 03:18 pm

You know what bothers me most about life? It's when all those men I don't want to see come here to the palace and try to bother me. That blasted maid invariably comes in and calls me names while I hide under the covers and pretend I'm asleep. Now, that's something that would get anyone down about life, don't you think so? I get so mad I kick and scream and say I'd rather be dead than entertain those dumb princes in my drawing room. What a bore! Life's the pits. I mean it; it is!

I hate to disillusion you people, but I don't think Sei Shonagun had any of us in mind when she wrote this little Pillow Book ditty almost a couple thousand years ago.

Robby, you don't have to eat any of that feast that's in front of you, but please shut up and drink your sake and watch the dancing girls, will you? Then you'll really be happy feeling miserable, Oriental Heritage or not.

Mal

Justin
August 9, 2002 - 03:34 pm
If you can't be happy drinking sake and watching dancing girls, that's too bad. Send them to me. I can ,at least, pretend to be happy when you folks are miserable..

Malryn (Mal)
August 9, 2002 - 03:38 pm
Oh, there always has to be one of those Pollyanna dudes in every crowd to spoil the party!

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
August 9, 2002 - 05:58 pm
As we approach the end of the volume, do some of you get the feeling we are all falling apart? To you comparative newcomers here:--be assured that most of us long-timers were very very serious throughout most of the book but those of us who have made this nine-month trip through the Ancient Orient have become a bit fatigued. I think we started to get tired about the time we started to trek the long dusty Silk Road to China.

Let us give the remainder of Japan its just due and end the volume as Durant would have wanted us to.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
August 9, 2002 - 06:10 pm
"The oldest surviving work in Japanese literature is the Kojiki, or 'Record of Ancient Things,' written in Chinese characters by Yasumaro in 712. Here legend so often takes the place of fact that the highest Shinto loyalty would be needed to accept it as history."

I am wondering how much of American "history" is accurate.

Robby

Jere Pennell
August 9, 2002 - 06:48 pm
"Urban legends" tends to creep into history no matter the country. I have sat in history classes covering the same period of history, WW II, taught by Japanese, English, and American professors and was amazed that they were teaching the same period. The points of view they expressed were so different one would think that it was different history.

Jere

Malryn (Mal)
August 9, 2002 - 07:50 pm
THE KOJIKI

Malryn (Mal)
August 9, 2002 - 07:58 pm

JAPAN MILITARY HISTORY FROM THE KOJIKI

Malryn (Mal)
August 9, 2002 - 08:26 pm

HIRAGANA (JAPANESE ALPHABET)

Bubble
August 10, 2002 - 01:48 am
I am wondering how much of American "history" is accurate.



Thanks Robby, it was in my mind and I did not want to put it into words.



I don't know if I am building a wall to this very oriental culture from China and Japan, although I am interested in it, or is it that I find less humane affinity with it than with India or the previous places. Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
August 10, 2002 - 03:25 am
"After the Great Reform of 645, the government thought it advisable to transform the past again. About 720 a new history appeared, the Nihongi, or 'Record of Nippon' written in the Chinese language, and adorned with passages bravely stolen from Chinese works and sometimes placed, without any fetichism or chronology, in the mouths of ancient Japanese. Nevertheless, the book was a more serious attempt to record the facts than the Kojiki had been, and it provided the foundation for most later histories of early Japan.

"From that time to this, there have been many histories of the country, each more patriotic than the last.

Robby

OrchidLady
August 10, 2002 - 06:03 am
Robby, to some extent I think the history of all countries becomes mythologized after a period of time - just as religious history does = i.e. Moses parting the seas, finding the Tablets of the Ten commandments on Mount Sinaie (can't spell it). The facts are not deliberatedly distored, but are re-written in a form that is "smoother" and easier to understand. A good example of this is the origin of the Declaration of Independence in this country, and the activities of the Confederation Congress. The truth has not been ignored, but it has been "re-stated" in a more appealing way, and all the knotty problems have been smoothed out.

But there are answers to this problem. My current answer, and I think the answer for our generation is the work of Joseph J. Ellis - I read "Founding Brothers" which has a wealth of information, as to how things really proceeded, and then The American Sphinx: The Character of Thomas Jefferson, and I am re-reading Founding Brothers now. I will eventually get around to his bio. of Truman.

If you read the work of a good historian, not one who is trying to change historical interpretation to fit his current revisionist interests,but is trying to present the facts first, and his even handed interpretation of what is behind the facts, you can get the truth, at least as far as this country's history is concerned. Louise

OrchidLady
August 10, 2002 - 06:07 am
Nine months of Oriental/Japanese history!!!!

If I had some gold medals I would award one to each of you. Louise

Malryn (Mal)
August 10, 2002 - 06:20 am
Robby, you skipped over the story about Jippenasha Ikku, whom Durant said was "Le Sage and Dickens of Japan". With your indulgence, I want to post something about this poverty-stricken writer who had such a good sense of humor. Ikku wrote The Posthumous Papers of the Pickwick Club. Durant tells us:
"On his deathbed Ikku enjoined his pupils to place upon his corpse, before the cremation then usual in Japan, certain packets which he entrusted to them. At his funeral, prayers having been said, the pyre was lighted, whereupon it turned out that the packets were full of firecrackers, which exploded merrily."
There's nothing wrong with a sense of humor, even in this discussion. I have often wondered what the people in the civilizations we've read about in Our Oriental Heritage laughed about. Surely they laughed at something. What did the Sumerians laugh at, I wonder?

Gosh, I just looked ahead a page in the book and see there's quite a bit about the Lady Sei Shonagun. It looks as if I jumped the gun again. I ran across a reference to her when I was searching Tales of Genji, you see. Sorry about that, Robby.

I've never enjoyed history as much as I have reading Durant and participating in this discussion, frankly. I don't know why China seemed hard. I have always related much more to Japan than China, for some reason. Maybe because the Japanese are avid baseball fans!

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
August 10, 2002 - 06:25 am
Not 9 months of Japan, Louise. We began with primitive man; went through Egypt, Sumeria, Babylonia, Persia, Assyria, Judea and the near East, then India, China and now Japan. After all, with the index and introductory material, the copy of Our Oriental Heritage I have, thanks to Mahlia, is a hefty book 1049 pages long.

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
August 10, 2002 - 07:59 am

When you click the link below you will find links to translated parts of the Kojiki and chapters of the Nihongi.

SACRED SHINTO TEXTS

Malryn (Mal)
August 10, 2002 - 08:23 am

An interesting article about Japan today in the NY Times Online

moxiect
August 10, 2002 - 08:51 am


Isn't it amazing to learn that all earlier civilizations used some form of dieties to explain the how and whys of their beliefs still being interpreted by men of today.

I find it fascinating the way human beings interpret the past to suit their immediate needs to survive. To me man must not forgot the past in order to improve and struggle forward to a much better future.

robert b. iadeluca
August 10, 2002 - 10:03 am
Moxiect, you say:--"To me man must not forgot the past in order to improve and struggle forward to a much better future."

Any thoughts on how what you have read and discussed here has helped you to move toward a "much better future?"

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
August 10, 2002 - 10:08 am
"Perhaps the most scholarly and impartial of Japanese historians was Arai Hakuseki, whose learning dominated the intellectual life of Yedo in the second half of the seventeenth century. Arai smiled at the theology of the orthodox Christian missionaies as 'very childish,' but he was bold enough to ridicule also some of the legends which his own people mistook for history.

"Arai derived something of his learning and judgment from his study of the Chinese philosophers."

Are we perhaps downgrading Chinese philosophy and civilization a bit too much here as the Japanese seemed to have turned constantly toward China for their inspiration?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
August 10, 2002 - 10:59 am
This may be off the subject of the Orient, and yet, it may be relevant. I am wondering if many of us in the Western Civilization are "afraid" of anything Oriental -- even before Sept. 11. This ARTICLE ABOUT WEST NILE VIRUS indicates that in many ways it is far less serious than AIDS, for example. Yet, people turn their heads away from HIV and yet are becoming hysterical about the West Nile virus. The St. Louis virus is far more serious than the West Nile virus, yet it does not create that much fear.

Does the term "West Nile" bring thoughts of the Orient to us? Is this the fear of the unknown? If the very same virus were named the West Danube virus or the West Thames virus, would it cause that much hysteria?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
August 10, 2002 - 11:13 am
Your link wouldn't work when I first tried it, Robby, so I went and found the article; came back, and you'd fixed it. It's funny this scare, isn't it? There's a very small percentage of infected people who become sick. Like 1%, is it? I never thought about the name, but you could be right about some sort of fear of what's unknown -- like the Nile, for example.

About our belittling the rôle of China in history, didn't we do the same about India? Who among us ever thought so many advances in science and technology and philosophy began in India?

We've been poorly taught.

Mal

OrchidLady
August 10, 2002 - 12:09 pm
Could be, Robbie. I think its because when we hear of a disease/illness, whatever, coming from the East or from Africa, we are afraid because we (I) figure that probably there has never been a cure for whatever it is, in the country where it originated. I'm thinking of Ebola, or whatever you call it that Africans caught from monkeys and which was brought to London about 10 or 15 yrs. ago -and from there to Berlin, via the monkeys which were shipped there.

In Berlin in the hospital to which the monkeys were shipped, about 18 or 20 people caught this new virus, and the mortality rate was about 50% -there was no known cure, just good nursing, and palliative help, I guess. The Western medical research had never done anything about finding a cure for it - I dont know if they ever even heard of it - from what little I have read recently work has been done on it, probably because air transportation makes it so easy for diseases from other parts of the world to show up in this country and Europe.

So when I hear a name of a virus/disease, whatever, and it seems to have come from the third world, I am a little uneasy. Now, if the disease were labeled -Vienna Mosquite Virus, I would probably not be so uneasy -I'd assume the med. profession in Europe was pretty up todate, at least as up to date as they are in this country - which isn't always saying very much. But I'd rather trust this frail old body to them. Louise

Bubble
I think you are right, Robby, because here there is no panic about The Blue Nile Virus. After all the Nile is not far from us and West or East, it is the same river in the end. There are a few cases but not much noise about them.
Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
FEAR OF THE EAST??

Egyptian mummies? Magic in India (rope trick, etc.)? Oriental Express? Dangerous sheiks? Secretive Sultans behind closed walls? Life of the nomads? Opium dens?

We of the Occidental civilization hiding in our own little cocoon away from the fearful mysteries of the East?

Robby

Bubble
The riches of the East: the Emeralds and Jade, the gems of the Maharajas, the cave of AliBaba. It made us all dream as well as having to fear the curse of the Great Pyramid.

robert b. iadeluca
You've got it, Bubble! That's exactly what I was referring to. Movies are always built around the "curse" of the East, not their wonderful daily life.

Anyone acquainted with "The Monkey's Paw?"

Robby

Bubble
Something in one of the Conan Doyle's mysteries?

Jere Pennell
Robby asks, "Are we perhaps downgrading Chinese philosophy and civilization a bit too much here as the Japanese seemed to have turned constantly toward China for their inspiration?"

I assume the reasons the Japanese turned to the Chinese culture for inspiration were that it was advanced beyond anything they knew, it was close, and the country was immense beyohnd anything it knew.

Although it was described as the fear of the East wouldn't if be more accurate to say that we as a people have a fear of the Unknown and the East or Far East is unknown to many of us and therefore...

Or am I assuming too much?

Jere

Justin
History in the US has always been a thing in flux which results in multiple views of the same event. There is a fine example in this morning's paper. Will Bagley, who writes a history column for one of the local papers, wrote a book charging Brigham Young with responsility for the murder of 120 California-bound pioneers on September 11, 1857. The church's chief official historian denies Young's culpability and promises to write a book chronicling his version of the massacre. Since 17 children were spared in the slaughter in which 70 children died, it is to be expected that their grands and great grands will spawn another version of the tale. It is these conflicting versions of an event as well as biography, news coverage,witnesses, and artifacts that enable the unbiased historian to to leave posterity with an opinion.

MaryPage
We did a book here in SeniorNet several years ago which I believe was titled: "Lies My Teacher Told Me." We had a lot of fun and learned a lot. Bottom line, there is much in our very real history that we never learn in elementary school or high school, never ever, and seldom learn in college. That is why I like to explore a subject in depth and research every book I can get my hands on. Speaking of the Brigham Young thing, I believe there was a time when the United States of America was at WAR with the Mormons. I mean, quite literally, I believe I remember that our army was drawn up in the hills ready to aim and fire. My memory is murky, and I am not looking this up, but I believe the outcome of that was their giving up the polygamy.

Malryn (Mal)
MORMON BATTALION

CONCISE HISTORY OF THE MORMON BATTALION

I first heard of this when I was doing research for the My Antonia discussion.

Mal

Justin
After examining China and it's exploitation by the west, and it's resistance to western culture (with the possible exception of the Treaty Ports), I was amazed by the rapidity with which Japan adopted western ideas as well as Chinese ideas. Beginning in 1870, feudalism comes to an end. The Shogunate loses power and the sainted emperor takes over. Further, those at the bottom of society, the merchants, find themselves further up the pecking chain. Japan quickly learned the lessons of the western exploiter, found gadgets useful,changed its dress, modernized it's school system, modernized it's army and navy, and made use of its power by defeating Russia, and capturing a piece of China. It is most remarkable to me that Japan could have remained isolated for so long resisting the invasive powers of the west with religion at the head of the spear.

robert b. iadeluca
Moving on to Drama -- "Brought up in our English tradition of the theatre, from Henry IV to Mary of Scotland, how shall we ever attune ourselves to tolerate what must seem to us the fustian and pantomime of the No plays of Japan? We must forget Shakespeare and go back to Everyman, and even farther to the religious origins of Greek and modern European drama. Then we shall be oriented to watch the development of the ancient Shinto pantomime, the ecclesiastical kagura dance, into the illumination of pantomime by dialogue which constitutes the No (or lyrical) form of Japanese play.

"About the fourteenth century Buddhist priests added choral songs to their processional pantomimes. Then they added individual characters, contrived a plot to give them action as well as speech, and the drama was born."

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
The pages I've linked below are about Japanese music and theater. I've been saving them for quite a while. Be sure to click NEXT and PREVIOUS to see more.

SARUGAKU NOH

Malryn (Mal)
The link below takes you to a video of a Noh play and commentary. Click the right arrow on the video screen to activate the film. Be sure to click the links at the side of the page to see more.

NOH VIDEO

Jere Pennell
Justin writes "It is most remarkable to me that Japan could have remained isolated for so long resisting the invasive powers of the west with religion at the head of the spear."

The islands are small and hard to get to from the East and almost impossible (navigationally) from the West until the 1700's and the samurai quickly dispatched the storm tossed. This would mean that little information of Japan would reach the West so little interest in the islands would exist on a national level.

I definitely agree with Justin that the tradition bound culture should have resisted change more strenuously than it did. Why it did not is a mystery to me.

Today there are kids with the dyed hair and the spiky looks seen on in TV in Japan and they arrived almost as soon as we found them on TV and the magazines. Their parents snap up designer clothes as soon as they appear on the racks. In fact, no one wants to buy "generic" products in Japan, by which I mean a unlabeled anything. Brand name and designer labels is everything.

How and why the change, I do not know and can not find the reason. Not even living in Japan has gotten me the answer. I just marvel at the paradox.

Jere

Jere Pennell
The most amazing things about the Noh plays are the masks and the stage assistants.

The masks are carved and painted in such a manner that by turning the head a little, a happy expression will seem to change to sad. They are truly amazing.

The other thing that interests me as a major in Drama is the presence of the stage assistant dressed totally in black who is not to be noticed. He flits onto the stage to remove things, help actors change costumes, and change scenery on the fly. If the scene calls for the actor to dress in kimono and his wife or servant is to help him(as the kimono is hard to do by oneself) then the person helping him is dressed in colored clothing. If a tie or something needs fixing and the audience is not supposed to see it, then the black garbed stage assistant filts on stage and makes the adjustment and leaves. Fascinating difference. Now we are beginning to see this in Western plays and movies.

Jere

robert b. iadeluca
Here we are talking about our Oriental heritage and Jere tells us about Japanese teenagers wearing dyed hair and spiky looks seen on TV and which I assume began in Western nations. Who is inheriting what from whom?

Robby

Jere Pennell
Robby said, "Who is inheriting what from whom?"

I merely added, "and at what pace." How could this be?

Jere

moxiect


Robby in answer to your post #442

I have always maintained that you cannot remove an ideaology by force, mans inherit beliefs are passed from one generation to other. How man interprets the past to be represented in the present is the basis for a much better future when one understands to accept any people from different culture and allow them the freedom of choice. Each ancient civilization has progressed one step at a time to do so. From the discussions held here, what I recently read because of being here, the historical biographies, fiction and non-fiction that I have read led me to my conclusion.

robert b. iadeluca
Moxiect says:--"From the discussions held here and what I recently read because of being here."

The underlining is mine. I find it interesting that some participants find that the discussions here stimulate them to read additional material. That's great!

Robby

Malryn (Mal)

The link below takes you to a page where there are pictures of Noh masks. Click the thumbnail to see more.

NOH MASKS

This link takes you to a page where you will see costumes as well as Noh masks.

NOH THEATER

Malryn (Mal)
Jere has posted some very interesting information about the Japanese Obon -- Festival of the Dead -- in the Japan discussion. There also is a very good link at the top of that page. Click TRADITIONAL JAPANESE ARTS. Click the link below to access the Japan discussion.

JAPAN DISCUSSION

robert b. iadeluca
"In these plays, occasionally Kyogen, or farces ('mad words') were acted in the intervals, to relieve and facilitate the tension of emotion and thought. The first part of the trilogy was devoted to propitiating the gods, and was hardly more than a religious pantomime. The second was performed in full armor, and was designed to frighten all evil spirits away. The third was of a milder mood, and sought to portray some charming aspect of nature, or some delightful phase of Japanese life.

"The lines were written for the most part in blank verse of twelve syllables. The actors were men of standing, even among the aristocracy. A playbill survives which indicates that Nobunga, Hideyoshi and Iyeyasu all participated as actors in a No play about 1580. Each actor wore a mask, carved out of wood with an artistry that maks such masks a prize for the art collector of today. Scenery was meagre. The passionate imagination of the audience could be relied upon to create the background of the action.

"The stories were of the simplest, and did not matter much. One of the most popular told of the impoverished Samurai who, to warm a wandering monk, cut down his most cherished plants to make a fire. Whereupon the monk turned out to be the Regent, and gave the knight a goodly reward.

"But as we in the West may go again and agin to hear an opera whose story is old and perhaps ridiculous, so the Japanese, even today, weep over the oft-told tale, because the excellence of the acting renews on each occasion the power and significance of the play."

The comment about the "imagination of the audience" makes me think of the "old" radio days when we listened to the stories and let our imagination fill in the gaps.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
Below is a link to an article in the Japan Times about the O-Bon Festival.

O-BON FESTIVAL

Bubble
We still have detective stories read on the radio. I enjoy them more than seeing the same story on TV. It seems that the descriptions of feelings in words plus my imagination make it more vivid and agreeable.



I once saw a play in ChinaTown in full costumes and of course in Chinese, or maybe Japanese. I couldn't understand a thing, but the gestures, the intonation of voices let me imagine a whole scenario and I found it very rewarding and not frustrating as I had expected. I was told the women's roles were played by men.
Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
Here is something that will raise your eyebrows! According to THIS ARTICLE in today's NY Times, there are those who say that Japan does not like foreigners, that it does not want to open up its country and its institutions, and that its contributions to the world are insignificant.

Please read it and, based upon what we have learned about Japan so far, share your opinion.

Robby

Elizabeth N
Moxiect says deep-rooted ideas pass down the generations: We read here that the ancient Japanese put great importance on correct costuming--from the pictures Mal found for us it seems a valid art form--so perhaps today that inheritance is working and what is seen on American tv is embraced as the modern, absolutely perfect style. The Japanese are very modern in other ways. An open-minded people perhaps. Maybe we have Gen. MacArthur to thank for that.

Bubble
In my opinion the Japanese like the frills of western civilizations but are still very deeply rooted into their traditions and history. maybe they are scornful of the lack of traditions in the Americans althought they would be too well-mannered to show it openly. I think they feel superior to foreigners because of the length of their history. They don't seem, strangely, to tend to more than economical or technological achievement.



You could say they are not the only ones embedded in their culture. I don't think the Swiss like foreigners either, and they are so well behaved and refined about not showing it.
Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
Elizabeth, you say:--"The Japanese are very modern in other ways. An open-minded people perhaps. Maybe we have Gen. MacArthur to thank for that."

According to the article to which I put a Link in Post 471, the contrary is suggested.

Robby

Jere Pennell
ROBBY WROTE "there are those who say that Japan does not like foreigners, that it does not want to open up its country and its institutions, and that its contributions to the world are insignificant.

I agree with most of what Robby wrote except for the last. If by contributions you mean original inventions then you may be right but in electronics alone they have done alot. consider that five out of six US TV manufacturers are Japanese. The competition for half inch video formats was between Sony and Matsushita and Matsushita won with their VHS. I could go on but I won't

Jere

robert b. iadeluca
Jere, you write:--"If by contributions you mean . . ."

I did not say that, Jere. The author of the article to which I gave a link said that.

Robby

Jere Pennell
Mal

I know that you are very busy but would you put the link to the NY Times Obon article in the Japan discussion for me with some phrase indicating that youR post has more historical information on the Obon Festival for those who are interested.

I am going to have to learn how to make links.

THANK YOU

Jere

Jere Pennell
Robby

You are correct. I did a sloppy job of attribution. I should have identified the quotation as coming from Post 471 and not from you.

Jere

Jere Pennell
There is much written about the Japanese conformity and acquiesence to society and government. I too also believed in this based on birth, growing up and years of living there. However, reading the recent posts, the Japanese newspapers, and recent events, I wonder how accurate this perception is. I am reading about the "Juki Net" or the Japanese 11 digit national ID number being issued. It was issued last Monday and encountered resistance.

I can understand the protest groups of students but I learned that several local governments have refused to participate including Yokohama. Yokohama is giving its 5.6 million people a chance to vote whether to join or not. This is akin to heresy.

I am waiting to see what the national governement is going to do. I have not seen any indication that the system is not mandatory.

Jere

Malryn (Mal)
JERE, the deed is done. For your information and that of others, it is easy to make a link on SeniorNet. COPY the URL address at the top of the page which you want to link by first highlighting it with your cursor, then going to EDIT and clicking COPY. Go to SeniorNet and open up a message blank in a discussion. Click the message blank; then go to EDIT and click PASTE. The URL will appear on the message blank. This program SeniorNet uses automatically makes it a link.

The html method for making links is this:

<A HREF="http://www.sonatapub.com">Sonata</A>

When typed on the message board, that becomes a link that says Sonata. Paste the URL of the page you want to link where I have typed Sonata's URL. Enclose the URL with quotation marks.

You can also copy by holding down CTRL and hitting C. To paste, hold down CTRL and hit V.

OrchidLady
I know very little about Japan, so I can't say much. I do know that people I have known who have lived there say they don't like foreigners, but of course, as Sea Bubble says, they are too polite to show it.

As for their contributions, it seems to me they have made many contributions in technology. They still are leaders - I like to buy Sony products when available because I think they do a good job. But we see both South Korea and Taiwan now getting a good share of the export market to the U.S. in electronics. And the new camera I just bought - which incidentally doesn't work, so I am sending it back -was made in China. First time I've seen any electronic item being made there and shipped to this country (but I might miss a lot, I don't buy a lot.) But I remember when our government tried to "open up" their markets to American produce (rice I think) they got the run-around, couldn't be done, etc. etc.

I think Sea Bubble has probably given an accurate picture of the situation.Louise

Malryn (Mal)
You'll see some different points of view if you read some articles in today's Japan Times. There is an an article which states that MacArthur worried that Japan would wage a "new economic aggression" by flooding other Asian markets with cheap products.

There is another article that says, "Confidence in business surges as exports, production rise." Take a look at these and other articles by clicking the link below.

JAPAN TIMES INDEX, August 11, 2002

Malryn (Mal)
Below is a link to a page which has links to various Japanese newspapers. These papers will tell you much more than we can learn by speculating. If you click the MAINICHI SHINBUN-ENGLISH link and scroll down to the bottom of that page index, you'll see a link called PHOTO GALLERY. You might be interested in some of the photographs which come up. There also is a link to a page about JAPANESE ICE CREAM where you'll learn about flavors such as eel, chicken wing, squid and cactus. Visit some of these papers and find out more about Japan today and yesterday.

JAPANESE NEWSPAPERS

I see that this newspaper index site was built and is maintained by the Perkins Library at Duke University in Durham, NC, which is where my daughter's partner works.

Mal

Jere Pennell
Thank you Mal for the information of how to make a link. Thanks Robby for not fussing of being off the topic.

Mal your post with the link to the Japanese web site is the greatest. I have marked it as it is a great collection. Beats looking them up one by one and then the regional papers list is awesome. A veritable treasure trove of information.

THANK YOU VERY VERY MUCH

Jere

robert b. iadeluca
Jere:--If Senior Netters ever decide we should go on to "The Life of Greece," you will find making Links extremely helpful.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
IF, you say?

Mal

Jere Pennell
Robby

Do you need a vacation? Greece?

Jere

Justin
What is the total number of postings logged for Oriental Heritage? Does anyone know? My guess is about 7500.

Bubble
What does " I F " mean ????

Bubble
Those links on Japan are very informative. The festival pictures are really something.



Seeing so many people crammed in the Kyoto street awoke my agoraphobia on a grand scale. Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
Justin:--Just below my name in the Heading above is a link to "past SofC discussions." If you go to each one of them and then go to the last posting, then add up each of the last postings, you will get the total number of postings we have had so far.

You might find it of interest to read some of the past postings.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
"The inner force and spirit of Japanese art, like everythng essential in Japan, came from the people themselves. It is true that the wave of ideas and immigration that brought Buddhism to Japan in the seventh century brought also, from China and Korea, art forms and impulses bound up with that faith, and no more original with China and Korea than with Japan. It is true, even, that cultural elements entered not only from China and India, but from Assyria and Greece -- the features of the Kamakura Buddha, for example, are more Greco-Bactrian than Japanese.

"But such foreign stimuli were used creatively in Japan. Its people learned quickly to distingish beauty from ugliness. Its rich men sometimes prized objects of art more than land or gold, and its artists labored with self-effacing devotion. These men -- though arduously trained through a long apprenticeship seldom received more than an atisan's wages -- if for a moment wealth came to them, they gave it away with Bohemian recklessness, and soon relapsed into a natural and comfortable poverty.

"But only the artist-artisans of ancient Egypt and Greece, or of medieval China, could rival their industry, taste and skill."

Robby

OrchidLady
A quick question, as I must do errands.

Robby, how would you rate the artisans of early -and mid - medieval Europe? Comparing them. I am thinking of the Celtic craftsmen in gold and silver, and the manuscript writers of anywwhere from 1000 AD to say, somewhere in the 1300s,?

I would say that for sophistication, and simple elegance the European craftsmen might not always measure up, but for vitality and deep vibrant life in their work, I feel they did equal the Japanese. What's your opinion? What's the opinionof others? Louise

robert b. iadeluca
Louise:--That is an excellent question but I am not qualified to give it an educated answer. I will leave that to others here.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
Justin is the one to answer Louise's question.

There are three links below. The first takes you to a painting by Hasegawa Tohaku, 16th century. The second takes you to a painting by Hiroshige, 19th century. The third takes you to the Web Museum's index page for Japanese Art and Architecture. Click the links for the various dynasties to see art of those times. I consider the Web Museum to be one of the finest sources for art and art history on the World Wide Web. Another fine source is Mark Hardin's Artchive.

HASEGAWA TOHAKU PAINTING



HIROSHIGE WOODBLOCK PRINT



JAPANESE ART AND ARCHITECTURE, WEB MUSEUM

MaryPage
LOUISE, I love the Celtic artwork. My spirit gloms onto it as the familiar, while admiring the Japanese as the unfamiliar. Our history lies within the deepest cells of our individual walking universe!

Malryn (Mal)
Below is a link to 18th and 19th century sculpture carving in jade, ivory and wood. Click the thumbnail to see a larger image.

JAPANESE NETSUKE SCULPTURES

Jere Pennell
It is fascinating to watch a carver at work. The wood ones go much faster than the stone(jade) ivory and bone so it is easier to see the results. The little old man hunched over the small (usually) piece of wood which has been colored already and he is painstakingly carving (gouging) out the wood that is to be removed in front of his "shop" home.

The lacquer makers are not as fun to watch because they work in back away from the public but the work that they do is awesome. Even the results of the cloisonee (spelling?) impresses me.

One of the advantages of the "cottage industry" "mom and pop shop" is the artisan at work, open to the public, an advertisement of the work or ware.

Jere

Malryn (Mal)
The page linked below is in Japanese. The pictures are of inro and lacquer works. Click image to see a larger one.

INRO AND LACQUER

Jere Pennell
If you look at Mal's link in the preceding post, the image at the top right is lacquer. If that was carved into metal is what I was trying to describe as Cloisnee (spelling) even though it may not be called that. I do not know what the correct English word is for a lot of Japanese art.

Jere

OrchidLady
MaryPage, those are my feelings, too. When I see Celtic art, and the art which is a combination of Celtic influences and Saxon influences, I can feel a real bond with the people who made them. I never saw the Sutton Hoo treasures, done about 600 AD I think, but they are an example. I have a brass rubbing of a Madonna and Child. It is part of the gravestone of a Flemish abbess, done arond 1400 I think. It isn't pretty exactly, but to me its beautiful. The Madonna has a faint smile on her lips, and Jesus is sitting on her lap, leaning forward, apparently trying to touch the abbess who kneels before him.

I did this rubbing in Cambridge. They have a brass rubbing center there where there were many, many reproductions of gravestones, dating from around 1000 a.d. or so, probably until the 1500s. The English have gathered together all - or most - of their medieval brass gravestones. I don't know where they are kept. But they have made very accurate reproductions out of synthetic materials, and they have these reproductions in several "brass rubbing centers" - one in Cambridge, one in Westminster Abby.

They dont have the elegance of Japanese carving, the subtlety, and restraint of Japanese art, the awareness that sometimes more is given to a work of art by what is left out. But they do have an energy, a fierce grasp of life. The artist pulls you into his work. The Japenese artist works in response to a voice within himself, an affiliation with the material to be used, and I think he isn't disturbed if the viewer doesn't get what he is saying. Louise

robert b. iadeluca
"All who could afford it adorned their persons not only with fine brocades and painted silks, but with delicate objects characteristic, almost definitive of the old Japan. Shrinking ladies flirted from behind fans of allurng loveliness, while men flaunted netsuke, inro and expensively carved swords. The inro was a little box attached to the belt by a cord. It was usually composed of several infolding cases carefully carved in ivory or wood, and contained tobacco, coins, writing materials, or other casual necessities. To keep the cord from slipping under the belt, it was bound at the other end to a tiny toggle or netsuke (from ne, end, and tsuke, to fasten), upon whose cramped surface some artist had fashioned, with lavish care, the forms of deities or demons, philosophers, or fairies, birds or reptiles, fishes or insects, flowers or leaves, or scenes from the life of the people.

"Here that impish humor in which Japanese art so far execels all others found free and yet modest play. Only the most careful examination can reveal the full subtlety and significance of these representations. But even a glance at this microcosm of fat women and priests, of agile monkeys and delightful bugs, cut upon less than a cubic inch of ivory or wood, brings home to the student the unique and passionately artistic quality of the Japanese people."

Robby

Justin
A comparison of the work of Japanese artisans with that of the Europeans and within the limits of the period you mention, IE;one ending in 1300 should be interesting. One must first find periods in which Chinese derivatives did not dominate Japanese forms.This ocurred about the mid-ninth century when Chinese forms diminished in Japanese art work.

In the Fugiwara period, ranging from about 900 to 1200, Japanese painting, presented figures with generic characteristics, and no depth in space. In the same period, the Ottonian, in Europe, figure painting appeared in manuscript illumination. The Ottonian figures were flat, vertical, and generic. This was about 825 or so. When comparison is made around 1200, Europe has begun its great renaisance and Japan has entered its Yamato-e period. The Yamato period is one in which decorative forms appear.The European renaisance however, brings in reality to art forms. It is not until 1300 and the Kamakura period that reality enters Japaese art. There is one piece of sculpture by Unkei in which the drapery is realistically presented and the form appears in a contra-posta stance reminiscent of earlier Greek postures. In Europe, in the eleventh century, drapery at places like Moissac and Vezelay is described as "beetle backed", because of its flatness. By the twelth century in Europe, human figure sculpture at places like Notre Dame, in Paris and Chartre, have become more life like with greater volume and deeper relief. While the Unkei piece, called the "Sage", is carved in wood and in the round and the European pieces are in deep relief and in stone, they are comparable in development.

In Europe, in the ninth century, wealthy people travelled about carrying missiles.The covers of many of these codices were decorated with gold leaf and gems embedded with the technique known as cloisone. I am not aware of similar work by the Japanese as early as this. Some may have appeared later.

In my judgment, the European artists, exceeded those of Japan thoughout this entire period. It is only much later, several centuries later, that Japan developed some skill in carving and Lacquer work. European wood carving reached a peak in the early 16th century with the work of Reimenschneider and Durer.

Celtic art forms can be seen in full in the book of Kells which demonstrates their intricate curvilinear shapes. There seems to be little else in Celtic art. However, you must remember, we are limited here to the forms of 1300 and earlier.

Justin
I know it sounds like short shrift to the Celts, but I forgot things like the Tara Brooch and some of the reliquaries and crucifixes that were done about the turn of the millennium. Many of these were done in metal and are decorated with precious stones embedded using cloisone techniques. However, the dominant form of the celts is spiraling shapes such as snakes which curl back on themselves.

Éloïse De Pelteau
Delightful reading in the above posts and links.

The insularity of Japan somewhat reminds me of England's. An ideal geographic position ensured them their security while they concentrated on military and economic development. Oceans used to be strong ramparts against enemies, but not any more since the sky now is the battlefield.

Interesting that England's invasion of North America caused the English language to become universal and this because of their strong ocean going vessels.

Malryn (Mal)

Bubble
I can't keep up! I had to open a special file for all those fantastic links about art and Japan, to read and study leasurely at a later date. Thanks for pointing them out.



I find it somehow unfair to compare genres and different nations. Art is so much influenced by the education, the way of living, the taboos too. I am thinking of the Moor art, the delicate graces of all those arabesques, geometrical shapes, created because of the religious interdiction of representing human figures.



Some materials are more durable than others too. I imagine that those who painted the great cave paintings that long ago could well have had carvers or shapers of unbaked clay of great talent and it would not have survived until our time. I am moved in the same way by some excellent work be it Eastern or Western. I do feel more affinity with the West of course. I wonder if the Inuit whale bones miniature carvings are posterior to the Japanese golden era of netsuke sculpting? Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
Moving on to Architecture:--"Prince Shotuku, who was entrusted with carrying out Empress Suiko's edict, brought in from Korea priests, architects, wood-carvers, bronze founders, clay modelers, masons, gilders, tile-makers, weavers, and other skilled artisans. This vast cultural importation was almost the beginning of art in Japan, for Shinto had frowned upon ornate edifices and had countenanced no figures to misrepresent the gods.

"From that moment Buddhist shrines and statuary filled the land. The temples were essentially like those of China, but more richly ornamented and more delicately carved. Here, too, majestic torii, or gateways, marked the ascent or approach to the sacred retreat. Bright colors adorned the wooden walls, great beams held up a tiled roof gleaming under the sun, and minor structures -- a drum-tower, e.g. or a pagoda - mediated between the central sanctuary and the surrounding trees.

"The group of temples of Horiuji was raised under the guidance of Prince Shotoku near Nara about the year 616. It stands to the credit of the most living of building materials that one of these wooden edifices has survived unnumbered earthquakes and outlasted a hundred thousand temples of stone. It stands to the glory of the builders that nothing erected in later Japan has surpassed the simple majesty of the oldest shrine.<P?"Perhaps as beautiful, and only slightly younger, are the temples of Nara itself, above all the perfectly proportioned Golden Hall of the Todaiji Temple there. Nara, says Ralph Adams Cram, contains 'the most precious architecture in all Asia.'"

Comments, please?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
The JAPAN ATLAS says:


The Buddhist temple of Horyu-ji in Ikaruga City, Nara Prefecture, was founded by the then Emperor's son, Prince Regent Shotoku (574-622), who left his name as an excellent politician in 607 shortly after Buddhism was introduced to Japan in the mid-sixth century from China by way of the Korean Peninsula. It is said that the original temple was destroyed by fire in 670, and the existing buildings in the temple's main compound, Sai-in (West Temple), are those which had been rebuilt and completed by 711. The other compound, To-in (East Temple), was built by 739 at the site of Prince Shotoku's Ikaruga Palace in dedication to the Prince.



The Kondo, the main hall of Sai-in, was completed by 680, followed by the pagoda, the inner gate, and the corridor. These buildings are the world's oldest wooden structures still standing today. The structure and design found in these buildings were developed under the influence of Chinese culture of the 6th century. Along the corridor, there stand a bell tower and a sutra repository, and the Great Lecture Hall which was rebuilt in the 10th century.



The main hall of To-in is called Yumedono, "Dream Hall," which is an elegant octagonal building. Yumedono, and the Denpodo, a lecture hall, and the priests' living quarters behind it date back to the 8th century. The corridor surrounding Yumedono, the Raido (worship hall), and other buildings were rebuilt in the 13th century.



As wooden structures require careful, regular maintenance to preserve them, the buildings have been reconstructed and repaired every hundreds of years on a large scale. Between 1933 and 1953, all the buildings were dismantled and rebuilt, and restored to the original structures.



There is no other example in the world in which outstanding wooden structures of different ages spanning from the 7th to the 19th centuries are concentrated in one area and preserved. Most of the temple buildings are designated as National Treasures or Important Cultural Assets. In 1993, the Horyu-ji and other Buddhist buildings in the surrounding area were registered on UNESCO's World Heritage list.

Malryn (Mal)
Below is a link to a page of pictures of the Horyuji Temple. Be sure to click CONTINUE at the bottom of the page to see more pictures. The next link is to a page that has information about and pictures of ancient Japanese carpentry tools.

Horyuji Temple



Carpenter tools

Malryn (Mal)
The Japanese were and are so meticulous and precise in their intricate carving of very small objects that I can only think they were as meticulous, precise and patient about constructing buildings such as the Horyuji Temple.

As far as art is concerned, there were different influences in different places. Medieval art in Europe was principally Christian religious art, as far as I can see. Art at that time in Asia was not, though representations of myths were certainly done, and there are numerous representations of the Buddha.

Mal

OrchidLady
MAL, you are just going to have to stop putting these gorgeous links in. I am not getting anything else done when I start on this discussion. For one thing, I have to think about what is written which isn't always the case in other areas.

SEA BUBBLE, how can I make a link that will get me to the books that have all these wonderful picture??? If I could only have that dragon carving. Its absolutely spectacular.

Re comparing European and Japanese art - I don't think "fairness" is a realistic or helpful atttribute in making comparisons. If an engineer is comparing two designs for an advanced motor, for example, he will (or may) find one far superior to the other, and he will reject the inferior one. And we don't condemn him as "unfair". Objective analysis is just apart of searching for the truth.

JUSTIN, your posting on European art with comparisons with the Japanese art of the same period was wonderful. I learned a lot. Louise

Malryn (Mal)
Louise, when you access the dragon carving page or any other page you want to save, click FAVORITES at the top of your screen in AOL, and the URL will be saved for you.

Mal

Tejas
Right now, I am just checking in to let the lonely planet (very good travel guide, excellent histtorical information) that Houston has a problem. The Mayor rammed a school teacher on his way home.

JR

Bubble
Sorry I have not participated: just back from tests and need to rest.



Louise, I just hold the left click on the link and drag to the file I opened for Japan, or just to the desktop to read later.

robert b. iadeluca
Tejas:--I am confused. What does your posting have to do with Ancient Japan?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
The link below takes you to a page about wooden architecture in Kansai. Note the paintings of house-builders on this page. Be sure to click the links at the left side of the page. Especially interesting is the link called MACHIYA, which takes you to a page about contemporary townhouses in Kyoto and shows a plan of one.

THE HISTORY AND FUTURE OF WOODEN ARCHITECTURE IN KANSAI

kiwi lady
Out from lurk mode.

Going back quite a few posts when women having real power was discussed: I live in a country where women have occupied every highest position in the land. At one time we had women in every single powerful position at one time. We have had a Woman Prime Minister for more than a decade. The Hon Jenny Shipley and now the Hon Helen Clark. Helen Clark consistantly polls as the most preferred Prime Minister by a big margin.

Japanese architecture ancient and modern. I love it!

I also love Japanese gardens. We have one in our city donated and designed by our sister city in Japan.

Carolyn

robert b. iadeluca
Carolyn:--Welcome back from "lurk mode!" Please stay with us!

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
Following the new GREEN quotes above:--

"The metalworkers of Japan spent themselves on making blades superior to those of Damascus or Toledo, sharp enough to sever a man from shoulder to thigh at a blow, and ornamented with guards and handles so highly decorated, or so heavily inlaid with gems, that they were not always perfectly adapted to homicide.

"Other workers in metal made bronze mirrors so brilliant that legends arose to commemorate their perfection. So a peasant, having bought a mirror for the first time, thought that he recognized in it the face of his dead father. He hid it as a great treasure, but so often consulted it that his suspicious wife ferreted it out, and was horrified to find in in the picture of a woman about her own age, who was apparently her husband's mistress.

"Still other artisans cast tremendous bells, like this forty-nine-ton monster at Nara (712 A.D.), and brought from them a sweeter tone than our clanging metal clappers elicit in the West, by striking a boss on the outer surface of the bell with a swinging beam of wood."

Too bad we don't have links which give us the sound of these bells.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
The first link below is to a picture of a Temple Bell at Kyoto. The second link takes you to a picture of a statue of the Buddha at Nara. The third accesses a page of information and thumbnail pictures of temples, shrines and palaces in Japan. Scroll down to see statues. Click the thumbnails to see a larger picture.

TEMPLE BELL, KYOTO



BUDDHA STATUE, NARA

TEMPLE, SHRINES AND PALACES

Malryn (Mal)
This link takes you to a page of sounds in Japan, including a temple bell, city sounds, country sounds, nursery songs and many others. Be patient. These are heavy files and may take some time to download. Be sure to turn the sound up on your computer. Click the name link to see a picture. Click the link marked WAV KB to hear the sound.

SOUNDS OF JAPAN

OrchidLady
<M>Such beautiful pictures, MAL. I wish I had that statue of Buddha in the monastery city outside of Osaka - or perhaps a small version of it -the large one wouldn't fit in my apt. I am sure. But it is so serene. I like the ones with the eyes shut - The buddha looks like he is medicating and is so restful to look at. Louise

robert b. iadeluca
Terrific photos, Mal!! Click on to them, folks, and spend 15-20 minutes traveling through a beautiful part of Japan.

Robby

Jere Pennell
I am sorry this is so late but I have been away for a couple of days. Before that I did not want to tell this story ahead of the time we got to Jigaro.

Jigaro carved a beautiful lifelike cat in the middle of a group of friezes which were entitled The Sleeping Cat which is on the temple in Nikko. It was so beautiful that it is said that he cut off his right hand so he would not be tempted to repeat or improve it. Imagine!

The temple was constructed by one of the Tokugawa Shoguns, Ieyasu, and is so large and beaustiful that it takes the crew of 11 painters four years just to paint the outer walls red, then they start all over again.

Jere

Justin
Jere; I understand that Shinto Shrines are torn down and rebuilt every two years. Why is that done?

Jere Pennell
Good question Justin, I do not know. Let me try to find out and I will let you know.

Jere

robert b. iadeluca
"In a sense it is not quite just to Japan to speak of her importing civilization from Korea and China, except in the sense in which northwestern Europe took its civilization from Greece and Rome. We might also view all the peoples of the Far East as one ethnic and cultural unity, in which each part, like the provinces of one country, produced in its time and place an art and culture akin to and dependent upon the art and culture of the rest.

"So Japanese pottery is a part and phase of the Far Eastern ceramics, fundamentally like the Chinese. Until the coming of the Korean artisans in the seventh century, Japanese pottery was merely an industry, moulding crude materials for common use. There was, apparently, no glazed pottery in the Far East before the eighth century, much less any porcelain.

"The industry became an art largely as a result of the entrance of tea in the thirteenth century. Chinese tea-cups of Sung design came in with tea, and aroused the admiration of the Japanese. In the year 1223 Kato Shirozemon, a Japanese potter, made his way perilously to China, studied ceramics there for six years, resumed to set up his own factory at Seto, and so far surpassed all preceding pottery in the islands that Seto-monto, or Seto-ware , became a generic name for all Japanese pottery, just as chinaware, in the seventeenth centry, became the English term for porcelain.

The shogun Yoritomo made Shirozemon's future by setting the fashion of rewarding minor services with presents of Shirozemon's tea-jars, filled with the new marvel of powdered tea.

"Today the surviving specimens of this Toshiro-yaki are accounted almost beyond price. They are swathed in costly brocade, and kept in boxes of the finest lacquer, while their owners are spoken of with bated breath as the aristocracy or connoisseurs."

Anyone here acquainted with fine porcelain?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
The first link below takes you to an article about and pictures of the Toshogu shrine Jere mentioned in his post. At the bottom left of the page you will see "The Sleeping Cat". By clicking the second link you will access other pictures of the Toshogu shrine. Be sure to click the right arrow on each page to see more pictures. The first site has some lovely pictures of the Nikko area.

Toshogu shrine, Sleeping Cat, Nikko



Toshogu shrine

Éloïse De Pelteau
Lovely links Mal about Japanese art.

When I eat from fine porcelaine, the food seems to taste better, don't you think so too?......Eloïse

Malryn (Mal)
I know much more about English and French porcelain than I do about Japanese. I found pages of pictures of Japanese porcelain, but the pictures shown were of plates, sake holders and boxes made in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Much of Japanese porcelain was and is made in Arita. The first link below takes you to a picture of an ancient Japanese vase. The second takes you to a picture of an exquisite Japanese porcelain doll.

ARITA JAPANESE VASE



JAPANESE PORCELAIN DOLL

OrchidLady
Mal, what is that thing that looks like a wicker basket behind the figure of the doll. She is an elegant lady, and I can't imagine she is carrying a basket with food, or whatever.

If I fall behind in chores, it is all your fault. I've been spending far too much time looking at your lovely links. Louise

robert b. iadeluca
Louise:--I am glad to see that you have set your priorities straight!!

Robby

winsum
the japanese tea cerimony uses raku a very crude, earthy form of pottey...not delicate at all. I know because in over thirty years of making it I've done it and have some. you take a piece of once fired or even unfired pottery and place it directly into the hot kiln until the glaze melts. remove it and place in closed container with organic materials so that it smokes, then remove and place in water to cool. the result is a combination of oxidized and reduction glaze affects...very beautiful but hardly dainty. normal pottery making involves long periods of cooling. at last something I can relate to (preposition, but hey who cares). P>> I like chinese thought or is it japanese i.e. "the man who knows knows nothing" or no thing ifyou will. makes sense to me an athiest and referse to infinity. did I get us away from gerunds? I only know about prepositions and not using them to end a sentence WITH. .. . claire

winsum
I know porcelain and stonewear too. wonderful stuff. problem is that I have too much of it having made it for over thirty years and each piece is a friend.

winsum
must mean painted on but not fired. the example shows a green that wouldhave to be low fired and red is very hard to get especially at porcelain temperatures abut cone 14 as oposed to cone 10for stonewware about 2300 degrees F. underglase porcelain could be achieved by using low fire glaze on top of already fired ware at the high temps. personally I like the affects of glaze OVER the design, more luminous even if they are in low fire colors. the best to my way of thinking are the high fire reduction affects of copper which can be a blood read in reduction or tourqkuoice green and blue in oxidation. too technical? boring? so Ok I'll stop, but it's my thing. . . . claire

winsum
obviously not spelling I lost my good editting program SPELLTOOLS and am lazy. but hope you can get my drift

Jere Pennell
I am not a potter or acquainted as closely with pottery as compared to winsum, but I have visited the potteries at Hizen. I hope Mal can find a picture of some of them to illustrate what I am going to try to describe.

The famous potteries at Hizen are built into the sides of hills. Imagine stepping into a small room sloped at a angle with shelves made into the hillside "wall" onto which the porcelain is placed to be "fired'. Then the potter or usually his assistants/disciples/apprentices start a fired to heat the room at the far end from the entrance.

I have always wanted to go back alone to learn more about how the firing is/was done because when I taught pottery in the middle school art class we had the "normal" square/octagonal electric kiln heated very carefully to certain temperatures measured by "cones" to accomplish the desired results of the students" work.

To achieve the beauty of that porcelain with such seemingly crude methods required it seemed me almost magic.

Jere still in awe

Jere Pennell
From the heading, ""Japanese pottery is stamped with the characteristic delicacy and fineness of all Japanese work." is only partially correct. The Hizen porcelain, Noritake china and others are examples of of the heading.

However, there is a school of Tea Ceremony that uses Raku Ware which is anything but delicate as mentiond by...

I have to run so will finish the thought later this afternoon or your evening.

robert b. iadeluca
Claire, great to hear your comments again!! And especially your sharing of your knowledge of pottery with us.

I am always amazed at the diversity of knowledge among Story of Civilization participants. The number of participants plus "lurkers" is large but people pop in and out depending upon their area of interest and/or knowledge. As we are discussing the activities of all of Mankind, practically every sub-topic is covered at one time or another with no participant being left out.

As pottery is not "my bag," I did not think it would arouse much interest. Was I wrong!!

Robby

Jere Pennell
Raku Ware is the antithesis of the fine porcelain of Hizen which makes Japan famous. If you went shopping for Wedgewood or Spode and ran across what is called stoneware the comparison is similar.

Rakuware aside from being thick, heavy and having deep lines cut into it also has holes through the sides of the cups close to the top where the hot liquid can pour through onto the unwary. Some of the cups have "double wall construction" meaning there is space between two layers of "clay" which keeps the side cool to the touch despite the presence of the hot liquid inside. With the fine porcelain cups one can not fill them completely or they become too hot to touch and hold. The practice is not to fill the cup more than two thirds unless you do not like the person.

Jere

Bubble
Oh Jere, that is a good tip that I have to remember, thanks! Bubble

Bubble
ROBBY, I like so much those ceramic Japanese bowls that I often browse in shops and take one in hand to admire and enjoy the delicacy of hues or design. I have a whole collection of various-sized "singles" that I use for salads, dips, tidbits and what not. I also remember where I picked each one of them, and how difficult the choice was. I do not buy more than one at a time. It nearly broke my heart when the last offered by my mom got chipped. Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
Durant goes on to state about Painting:--"It is my hope that through a veil of errors some glimpse may come, to the reader, of the fulness and quality of Japanese civilization. The masterpieces of Japanese painting cover a period of twelve hundred years, are divided amongst a complex multiplicity of schools, have been lost or injured in the flow of time, and are nearly all hidden away in private collections in Japan. Those few chef-d'oeuvres that are open to alien study are so different in form, method, style and material from Western pictures that no competent judgment can be passed upon them by the Occidental mind.

"First of all, like their models in China, the paintings of Japan were once made with the same brush that was used in writing. As in Greece, the word for writing and for painting was originally one. Painting was a graphic art. The initial face has determined half the characteristics of Far Eastern painting, from the materials used to the subordination of color to line.

"The materials are simple -- ink or water-colors, a brush, and absorbent paper or silk. The labor is difficult. The artist works not erect but on his knees, bending over the silk or paper on the floor. He must learn to control his stroke so as to make seventy-one different degrees or styles of touch.

"In the earlier centuries, when Buddhism ruled the art of Japan, frescoes were painted, much in the manner of Ajanta or Turkestan, but nearly all the extant works of high repute take the form either of makimono (scrolls) or kakemono (hangings) or screens. These pictures were made not to be arranged indigestibly in picture galleries -- for there are no such galleries in Japan -- but to be viewed in private by the owner and his friends, or to form a part of some decorative scheme in a temple, a palace or a home.

"They were very seldom portraits of specific personalities. Usually they wre glimpses of nature, or scenes of martial action, or strokes of humorous or satirical observation of the ways of animals, women and men."

Any "Occidental mind" here want to comment?

Robby

Bubble


The home of a japanese woman I knew abroad had a special corner where she used to sit and mediatate. It had a hand painted kakemono, a small low lacker table on wich she always disposed a bonsai, a little japanese garden, or an ikebana sober arrangement. In front of the ceramic container would also be a lovely stone or an arrangement of pebbles. She changed the disposition of the corner regularly, but it always had a strange harmony tieing all the elements together.



I do not know if they each had a separate meaning, I was attracted to pose a moment there and enjoy the artful balance of the composition.



There is an article on Japan and the fuji in the August issue of National Geographic. Also on the web at


<Nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0208>

Malryn (Mal)
Jere, I can find pictures of contemporary Hizen pottery, but can't find a picture of the kilns. Nor can I find a picture of ancient raku pottery, though I found plenty of contemporary examples. Below are two links to Japanese paintings. The second one is the better site. Click the small pictures on the first one to see larger ones.

Japanese painting



Japanese painting styles

Malryn (Mal)
Below is a link to one of the most famous Japanese paintings, which isn't a painting at all. It's a woodblock print by Hokusai. The Japanese were and are very adept at making woodblock prints. That's Mount Fujiyama in the background.

The Great Wave off Kanagawa

Malryn (Mal)
The first link below takes you to pictures of Claire (Winsum's) beautiful pottery. The second link takes you to the Table of Contents for her web pages. Take time to browse through some of the artwork this talented artist and friend of mine does. I often publish Claire's work in Sonata.

POTTERY BY WINSUM



TABLE OF CONTENTS, CLAIRE'S PAGES

OrchidLady
JERE, I know that Raku pottery is much respected in Japan and is considered fine art. About 10 or 15 yrs. ago the Museum of Fine Art in Boston had a display of raku pottery. There were a number of pieces, each one placed on a pedestal, and the pedestals placed in one of the galleries, standing apart from each other, each one separate enough so that one could walk around it to study the pottery.

Now, this pottery is used in the tea ceremony. So my question is, why is pottery that is by western standards crude and without subtlty (sp) so highly regarded in Japan? What aesthetic faculties do the Japanese see in this pottery that causes them to rate it so highly? Louise

Malryn (Mal)
I do not agree that Raku pottery is crude and without subtlety. Comparing porcelain and Raku pottery is like comparing oranges and apples. The techniques used to make them are very different. Recently I saw a TV show about a ceramic artist who makes very large abstract Raku pieces into unusual standing sculptures, true works of art. Watching him work was fascinating.

The after-kiln-firing methods used to create oxidation of the glazes on Raku pottery is not easy, and the results are never predictable. It is my opinion that Raku is used in tea ceremonies because Raku pottery holds the heat of the tea, but is less apt to burn the hands when someone is drinking that tea.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
"Korean artists,presumably, painted the flowing and colorful frescoes of the Horiuji Temple, for there is nothing in the known history of Japan before the seventh century that could explain the sudden native achievement of such faultless excellence.

"The next stimulus came directly from China, through the studies there of the Japanese priests Kobo Daishi and Dengyo Daishi. On his return to Japan in 806, Kobo Diashi gave himself to painting as well as to sculpture, literature and piety, and some of the oldest masterpieces are from his many-sided brush. Buddhism stimulated art in Japan, as it had done in China. The Zen practice of meditation lent itself to brooding creativeness in color and form almost as readily as in philosophy and poetry. Visions of Amida Buddha became as frequent in Japanese art as Annunciations and Crucifixions on the walls and canvases of the Renaissance. The priest Yeishin Sozu (d. 1017) was the Fra Angelico and El Greco of this age, whose risings and descendings of Amida made him the greatest religious painter in the history of Japan.

"By this time, however, Kose-no-Kanaoka (fl. ca. 950) had begun the secularization of Japanese painting. Birds, flowers and animals began to rival gods and saints on the scrolls.

Robby

Justin
The influence of Japanese prints on French painters of the mid to late 19th century is quite marked. It extends all the way from Manet to Van Gogh- from the Independents to the Post Impressionists. In the 1850's a little volume of Hokusai was found on paper that had been used to pack china and in 1862 La Porte Chinoise was opened as an oriental shop in the Rivoli Arcade by French people who had lived in Japan. The shop was frequented by Manet, Fantin, Tissot, Degas, Whistler, and Baudelaire who were impressed with things oriental. In 1867, I think, the Worlds Fair opened with a showing of Japanese prints.

winsum
lots here I don't know..I seem to remember that the distancers weere not indicated by our rules of perspective, but more like the size? of objects??? just a faint recollection. anyhow no vanishing jpoints.

Jere Pennell
You are absoulutely correct again Mal. Boiling tea served in Raku ware does not seem warm to the hands of the person holding the cup. However Raku ware is not used universally in the tea ceremony though. When it is used the examining and praising part of ceremony is real interesting. Raku ware provides because of its rough and sometimes multilayered surface many more interesting angles and different viewpoints than the smooth surface of the porcelain cup.

In fairness to the porcelain the better of the cups are so thin that one can see through the bottom and many times the sides of the cup. This capability is often seized to the advantage of the potter.

Jere

Justin
Japanese things- fans, prints, robes,and other objects found their way into French painting from about 1860 on. Manet painted a portrait of Emil Zola with two Japanese prints showing on the table. Van Gogh in 1887 painted Pere Tanguy with several Japanese prints on the wall behind the subject. Degas painted a portrait of Tissot with Japanese prints on the wall behind the subject. Of course these were not the only use to which Japanese prints were put by the Impressionist painters. Black and white in contrast and shades of gray were prominant in Japanese prints. Black was used to outline edges- to harden edges. Whistler became so interested in black as a subject he painted a "study in Gray scale" which we renamed "Whistler's Mother".Whistler's painting of the Bridge is also in gray scale. Both are rooted in Japanese prints. Degas also focused on black in some of his portraits. Manet used black outlining to establish hard edges- a direct derivative from the Japanese.

robert b. iadeluca
Durant speaks about Prints (see new GREEN quotes above):--

"About the middle of the eighteenth century the art of engraving, which had come to Japan in the luggage of Buddhism half a millennium before, was turned to to the illustration of books and the life of the people. The old subjects and methods had lost the tang of novelty and interest. Men were surfeited with Buddhist saints, Chinese philosophers, meditative animals and immaculate flowers. The new classes that were slowly rising to prominence looked to art for some reflection of their own affairs, and began to produce artists willing to meet these demands.

"Since painting required leisure and expense, and produced but one picture at a time, the new artists adapted engraving to their purposes, cut their pictures into wood, and made as many cheap prints from the blocks as their democratic purchasers required.

"These prints were at first colored by hand. Then, about 1740, three blocks were made: one uncolored, another partly colored, rose-red, the third colored here and there in green, and the paper was impressed upon each block in turn. Finally, in 1764, Harunobu made the first polychrome prints, and paved the way for those vivid sketches, by Kokusai and Hiroshige, which proved so suggestive and stimulating to culture-weary Europeans thirsting for novelty.

"So was born the Ukiyoye School of 'Pictures of the Passing World.'"

Robby

Bubble
It is so interesting to see the successive stages of development in one art.



I learned to do those block prints and it was a challenge to imagine the picture in reverse: you have to scrape or carve off the parts that will NOT receive the paint and leave in relief what should be printed. This is the opposite of drawing or painting. Bubble

Malryn (Mal)
The first link is to a page which contains information about HOKUSAI KATSUSHIKA. The second link takes you to a woodblock print by Hokusai called "Fugi from the Tea Plantation of Katakura in Suruga Province." I have already posted a link to one of Hokusai's most famous prints, commonly known as "The Great Wave", in Post #547.

HOKUSAI



FUGI FROM THE TEA PLANTATION

Malryn (Mal)
The link below takes you to a page which has information about and images of prints by HIROSHIGE. Click the thumbnails to see larger pictures.

HIROSHIGE

Bubble
Such extraordinary compositions. Thanks Mal.

robert b. iadeluca
"Because that medieval Japan which survived until 1853 was harmless to us, we can appreciate its beauty patronizingly. It will be hard to find in a Japan of competing factories and threatening guns the charm that lures us in the selected loveliness of the past.

"We know, in our prosaic moments, that there was much cruelty in that old Japan -- that peasants were poor and workers were oppressed -- that women were slaves there, and might in hard times be sold into promiscuity -- that life was cheap -- and that in the end there was no law for the common man but the sword of the Samurai. But in Europe too, men were cruel and women were a subject class, peasants were poor and workers were oppressed, life was hard and thought was dangerous, and in the end there was no law but the will of the lord of the king."

Are we coming to the conclusion that the Oriental and Occidental are not that much different?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
Not that much different, Robby. The methods and cultures may have been different, but human behavior was pretty much the same, a repeat of what we've seen in other civilizations. Philosophically, parts of the far East are not as dependent on religion as parts of the West, though, and that does make a difference, I believe.

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
Justin, I have memories of paintings by James Abbott McNeill Whistler which hang in the Frick Gallery in New York City which show a very strong Japanese influence.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
"As we can feel some affection for that old Europe because, in the midst of poverty, exploitation and bigotry, men built cathedrals in which every stone was carved in beauty -- or martyred themselves to earn for their successors the right to think -- or fought for justice until they created those civil liberties which are the most precious and precarious portion of our inheritance -- so we honor Japan. Behind the lazy monks we sense the poetry of Buddhism, and acknowledge its endless incentives to poetry and art. Behind the sharp blow of cruelty, and the seeming rudeness of the strong to the weak, we recognize the courtliest manners, the most pleasant ceremonies, and an unrivaled devotion to nature's beauty in all her forms.

"Behind the enslavement of women we see their beauty, their tenderness, and their incomparable grace. Amid the despotism of the family, we hear the happiness of children playing the garden of the East."

Is this denial? Or not? Has progress been shown?

Robby

Jere Pennell
I have two ukiyoe hanging. It still is a mystery to me how the artisan can carve such images in reverse. Further deepening the mystery is how the "printer" can get such delicate gradations in color in the printing process. I have tried rubbings onto various surfaces. I also tried carving into linoleum squares and then rubbing the paper on them with rollers that had the inks to get an appreciation as the the difficulty of the works of art that I had.

Then I tried painting, first with watercolors then oils to try to appreciate the two byobu that I have. Byobu are seven panel (in my case) screens painted on silk with various colors and kinds of "paint'. Looked at a distance in artificial light, they are beautiful. However, in natural light, the pictures change as the natural light changes color and intensity. Even the angle of the light from morning to afternoon affects the screens. They are an everchanging picture which I never tire of seeing.

I am impressed by the artisans who did these works in the last 1800's. The screens were done by the court painter in 1893 and the ukiyoe a little later. The price of the ukiyoe changes downward as each successive print is made. These are numbers four of one scene and five of the other. Any number over 100 is almost a give away as the edges of the carving is worn down said the artist. Family heirlooms of course.

Jere

Jere Pennell
Is this denial? Or not? Has progress been shown? asks Robby.

I believe that generalizations/conclusions like that are fraught with error. As many of you have said repeatedly, there is good and bad in every civilization in every generation. I wonder also if by comparing East vs. West whether we are comparing apples with oranges. While both are round/oval and have skins and seeds that may be all that they have in common.

What do you think? Is there a point beyond which we can not compare because the comparison increases with error?

Jere

winsum
uh huh. apples aren't oranges and men arn't women and days aren't nights endlessly. we can't use generalities except very loosely to describe anything much. . . . even races although they seem to be defined by certain physical characterisations cna't be described generally. So the devil and the wonderof all of civilization as we are aware of it is in the details. on with it. . . . . claire

Malryn (Mal)
This link takes you to a page of thumbnail images by Japanese artists who made Ukiyoe woodblock prints. Click the thumbnail image to access the next page; then click the larger picture to see one that's even larger.

UKIYOE PRINTS

Malryn (Mal)
The link below goes to a picture of a Byobu screen in the Kyoto National Museum. Click the links at the bottom of the page to see details of each panel.

BYOBU SCREEN

Jere Pennell
In Mal's excellent link #569 you can see the golden color of the paint. this color makes those changes that I mentioned. Thank you Mal for such an excellent link which so closely shows the screen that I have and was trying to describe albeit so poorly.

Jere

Malryn (Mal)
Jere, it was only because you mentioned Ukiyoe and Byobu art that I was able to find those pages. Thank you!

Mal

Justin
Generalizations are useful. They are the handmaiden of propaganda and the welcome partner of television sound bites. Where would we be in this modern world without the glorious generalization? We would be mired in detail and forced to think through the murky realms of uncertainty before reaching a generalization more to our liking.

Jere Pennell
"Behind the bluster of the Samurai we honor the bravery that still gives to Japan a power above its numbers and its wealth." is in the heading.

I do not know what Durant meant by "bluster." If ever a group did not bluster it was the Samurai. They represent to my mind the perfect adage of T. Roosevelt's admonition of "Speak slowly but carry the big stick." Samurai spoke softly once, if they did at all, and then would unleash the sword (katana). Once the sword has been pulled "it must taste blood." Japanese history has an example of a samurai goaded into starting to pull his sword in the capital of the shogun where it was forbidden for obvious reasons. He was then asked/forced to commit suicide for breaking the law. (Tale of the 47 Ronin, which was the subject of the famous play, Chushingura). The 47 samurai followers of the dead lord avenge him.

However, maybe bluster can be called "literary license" although historians are not supposed to do that. However, Robby has pointed out numerous Asian examples where the "history" is more entertaining than accurate.

Jere

Bubble
Byobu screen

Thanks Jere! Only now do I realize what was the screen I had as background on the small tatami supporting my go players statues. It was all in gold with black ink designs and delicate hues showing the Fuji mountain, a stream and little figures in kimono on the foreground. Unfortunately it was completely devored by insects, moths or cockroaches. The modern replacement looks gross in comparison.



It is difficult to generalize: the yardstick for one place does not fit for another place. We are all human, but our thinking process has been marked by our past generations and what we see immediately around us. We learn much from reading, from discussions like this one, from contacts with other civilizations. I still wonder how deep an influence this can have. Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
"In the comofrt and peace of her isolation, Japan had forgotten that a nation must keep abreast of the world if it does not wish to be enslaved. While Japan carved her inro and flourished her fans, Europe was establishing a science that was almost entirely unknown to the East. That science, built up year by year in laboratories apparently far removed from the stream of the world's affairs, at last gave Europe the mechanized industries that enabled her to make the goods of life more cheaply -- however less beautifully -- than Asia's skilful artisans could turn them out by hand.

"Sooner or later those cheaper goods would win the markets of Asia, ruining the economic and changing the political life of countries pleasantly becalmed in the handicraft stage. Worse that that, science made explosives, battleships and guns that could kill a little more completely than the sword of the most heroic Samurai.

"Of what use was the bravery of a knight against the dastardly anonymity of a shell?"

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
"There is no more amazing or portentous phenomenon in modern history than the way in which sleeping Japan, roughly awakened by the cannon of the West, leaped to the lesson, bettered the instruction, accepted science, industry and war, defeated all her competitors either in battle or in trade, and became, within two generations, the most aggressive nation in the contemporary world."

- - - Will Durant

Malryn (Mal)
These are the last Japanese print links I'll post. Thank you, Justin, for telling me about some of these artists. The first is by Okumura Masanobu. The second is by Kitai Masanobu. The third is by Tokoyuni, and the fourth is by Shunsho. There is a great array of Japanese erotic art called "Shunga" (Image of Spring). Because I want to "protect the innocent", I won't post links to any of those, but, believe me, as well as beautifully executed, these prints, paintings and small ceramic sculptures can be titillating. On my searches, I came across Chinese erotic art and erotic art of other civilizations we've discussed. I guess sex and its depiction in artwork and writing is here to stay.



Okumura Masanobu



Kitai Masanobu



Tokoyuni



Shunsho

OrchidLady
MAL, thank you fof all the lovely pictures. I couldn't pick out a favorite, but the one of the wave is certainly one of my favorites. I also saw a print a long time ago, of a cat, a white cat, sitting on a bench looking out a window. Never saw it again, but I would like to have had the chance to get a copy.

In the first picture you showed - in the last posting,-there was something flying toward the woman. I suppose it must have been a bird but I never saw one like it. Do you have any opinion? Frankly, it looks like a big bug. Louise

Bubble
Maybe it is not a bird but a dragon?

Jere Pennell
Shunga mentioned in Mal's post #577 are called colloquially as pillow books. Pillow books are mentioned in the literature of Japan and China.

Shunga are not only written material, pictured material, but carvings and sculpture but lately (I can not think of the name of the art form but the liquid clay is poured in a mold to get its shape, then fired. The colors are painted on the cast after the firing... Can someone help me with the name?)

I have seen several of these and even had one and they are exquisite. To me the eroticism loses something in the exquisiteness of the detail work. The sculptures/pottery are too much of art form to me to have much eroticism. This is akin to me when I see a Greek statue of a nude woman or the scuptures of Maillol or Rodin's "The Kiss"

Jere

robert b. iadeluca
Durant takes us to what he calls

The New Japan

The Tokugawas after Iyeyasu governed moderately well but, barring Yoshimune, they numbered no positive personalities in their line. Within eight generations after Iyeyasu's death, the feudal barons were disturbing the Shogunate with sporadic revolts. Taxes were delayed or withheld, and the Yedo treasury, despite desperate economies, became inadequate to finance national security or defense.

"Two centuries and more of peace had softened the Samurai, and had disaccustomed the people to the hardships and sacrifices of war. Epicurean habits had displaced the stoic simplicity of Hideyoshi's days. The country, suddenly called upon to protect its sovereignty, found itself physically and morally unarmed.

"The Japanese intellect fretted under the exclusion of foreign intercourse, and heard with restless curiosity of the rising wealth and varied civilization of Europe and America. It studied Mabuchi and Moto-ori, and secretly branded the shoguns as usurpers who had violated the continuity of the Imperial dynasty. It could not reconcile the divine descent of the Emperor with the impotent poverty to which the Tokugawas had condemned him."

Now where are we headed?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
"The death of a civilization seldom comes from without. Internal decay must weaken the fibre of a society before external influences or attacks can change its essential structure, or bring it to an end."

- - - Will Durant

OrchidLady
I look around at the values and life style of this country, as expressed by the media, and I feel the end of our society will come, perhaps sooner than one would expect. All cultures/societies change; sometimes they evolve into something better, sometimes they are destroyed by internal rot.

We see the acquisitiveness of millions and millions of our citizens, sometimes not able to be expressed directly, othertimes acted upon, from the corporate executive who drains the profits of a company to build a multi million dollar home, to the young person who runs up hundreds and sometimes thousands of dollars in debt to have the latest popular electronic toy, to have the best material goods he can manage to get - the best car, the best vacation, the newest styles, etc.

The values of the past which were at least acknowleldged if not always followed, are increasingly ignored. The rot is setting in, and I think it is only a question of time. Louise

robert b. iadeluca
Louise says:--"The rot is setting in."

As we pause to reflect upon what Durant has taught us, is that we see as our Future?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
The minute we start to think that way; then, yes, the rot is setting in. If we say we won't allow it to happen and remain alert to what causes this so-called rot, and work to keep it out, we have a good chance of preventing it from happening.

Mal

Justin
The rot in the USA has always been with us. Some of it we put up with, other parts we curb. There is some rot in business, some in government and some in the citizenry. It began for us with Benedict Arnold and it will not end with George Bush and Dick Cheney who combined the rot in business with the rot in government. We will live through it (depending upon age). I like to think of us as evolving toward a higher form of society.

Justin
Sorry Robby, It just snuck in.

OrchidLady
I hope your right, Justin. Louise

moxiect
Louise there is always HOPE for a better future.

As long as any civilization struggles to overcome or keeps 'rot' in check it will have better future.

robert b. iadeluca
We say "if" we do this or "if" we do that. But what has thousands of years we have gone through here taught us? What is the past telling us about our Future?

Robby

Justin
Civilizations tend to rot from the inside and fade away. But hope springs eternal. In 1916, in France the French and English were firing a million shells a day toward the Germans. The Germans had turned the very air we breathe against us with poison gas.Well over a million men had been killed one the Somne. The federal income tax and an inheritance tax was levied against Americans just two short years earlier. The President had sent two regiments to Texas as a protection against border raids by Pancho Villa.Forty thousand Machinists were preparing to strike for an eight hour day and overtime-unheard of and excessive rights. In Philadelphia, a grand jury was investigating the slaughter of 63 pedestrians by motor cars in the past six months. Anyone reading the papers in 1916 would think civilation, as they knew it, was coming to an end. But here we are 87 years later,certainly more advanced than the folks of 1916, but still uncertain about the outcome of many public problems.

Éloïse De Pelteau
Louise, there are some who know when a storm is brewing in the horizon and take their precautions, others wait until it arrives and are surprised that they were not ready when it rages in with full force. If the ship has rotted, it will not have the strength to overcome the enemy. I believe you are right and this is a normal evolution of a civilization that as reached its peak if we go by what Durant has taught us.

Eloïse

Malryn (Mal)
I read a book in which there was a fairly long section which stated that the country had lost its values, was decaying because of the acquisitiveness Louise mentions, and deteriorating from within. It also said the youth of the country and the young adults were moral-less, ignored their religion, were spendthrifts and greedy, were disrespectful to their elders and had turned against long-standing beliefs and traditions. It was noted, too, that the politicians in the country were corrupt and that many were lining their pockets with ill-gotten gains. The prediction was that the world as people knew it would not last long.

"Aha," I said. "The person who wrote this knows exactly what's going on."

Not much later I discovered that all these things had been written by a man in China 2000 years ago.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
"Commander Perry insisted upon seeing the supreme authority in Japan. He had four ships of war and 560 men but instead of making a display of even this modest force, he sent a courteous note to the shogun Iyeyoshi, assuring him that the American Government asked nothing more than the opening of a few Japanese ports to American trade, and some arrangements for the protection of such Americn seamen as might be shipwrecked on Japanese shores.

"The T'ai-p'ing Rebbellion called Perry back to his base in Chinese waters, but in 1854 he returned to Japan armed with a larger squadron and a persuasive variety of gifts -- perfumes, clocks, stoves, whiskey ... for the Emperor, the Emperess, and the princes of the blood. The new Shogun, Iyesada, neglected to transmit these presents to the royal family, but consented to sign the Treaty of Karagawa, which conceded in effect all the American demands. Perry praised the courtesy of the islanders, and announced, with imperfect foresight that 'if the Japanese came to the United States they would find the navigable waters of the country free to them, and that they would not be debarred even from the gold-fields of California.'

"By this and later treaties the major ports of Japan were open to commerce from abroad, tariffs were specified and limited, and Japan agreed that Europeans and Americans accused of crime in the islands should be tried by their own consular courts. Stipulations were made and accepted that all persecution of Christianity should cease in the Empire. At the same time the United States offered to sell to Japan such arms and battleships as she might need, and to lend officers and craftsmen for the instruction of this absurdly pacific nation in the art of war."

Robby

OrchidLady
You'r right, MAL. But the problem is, while people are pretty much the same all through history, in the past those negative destructive forces, of whatever nature, had only a limited means of influencing people, and a limited population to act on.

Today with our one world, with mass communication, the influence of destructive forces can reach millions at the same time. And many of these millions will be young people, too young to have developed standards and values that with deliberate intent, or otherwise, would determine how they would live. They have no inner defenses against destructive messages, and the rot takes hold. Louise

Malryn (Mal)
Did you ever think it works both ways, Louise? People are also influenced to do something about corruption and weakness in a country because of communication technology.

Just as an example, there are many, many sites on the web which also send out newsletters, and work among millions of people here in the States to bring about positive change through spreading information, urging that letters to Congress be written, protests joined and all kinds of things. If you're interested, write to me, and I'll tell you how to find these sites.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
"The Japanese people suffered keenly from the humiliation of these treaties, though later they acknowledged them as the impartial instruments of evolution and destiny. Some of them wished to fight the foreigners at any cost, to expel them all, and restore a self-contained agricultural and feudal regime. Others saw the necessity of imitating rather than expelling the West. The only course by which Japan could avoid the repeated defeats and the economic subjection which Europe was then imposing upon China was by learning as rapidly as possible the methods of Western industry, and the technique of modern war."

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
The link below takes you to an interesting short article about Commander Perry and the time in which he lived.

COMMODORE PERRY'S - JAPAN

Malryn (Mal)
This link takes you to a copy of the Treaty of Kanagawa, as written in 1854. This is on a U.S. Navy history page. It's not long or difficult to read, and might enhance our knowledge of what was happening with expansionism in the U.S. at that time.

TREATY OF KANAGAWA

Malryn (Mal)
Now, here's a real find. This link takes you to excerpts from Commodore Perry's journal written at the time his fleet was in Japanese waters.

COMMODORE PERRY'S JOURNAL. "WHEN WE LANDED IN JAPAN, 1854"

OrchidLady
Well, you're right, MAL, and I never did think of that. I can see that with communication today, it is possible to mobilize people to act as a group against elements/laws, etc. etc. that they feel are harmful to the environment, just to name one.

I don't generally join groups. There is one group whose name I can't remember. I think it might be located primarily here in the northeast, and the man who started it, -whose name I also can't remember - has as his goal to remove the laws that permit a corporation to be treated as a "legal person" which status apparently is a shield the company can hide behind, which gives the company carte blanc to do pretty much as its executives please.

It seemed like a good goal to me, but I think we can safely say that this is one change in the law that will NEVER be enacted. Louise

Malryn (Mal)
The author of the quote below is Thom Burns. Burns is adjunct Professor of English at Hawaii Pacific University, Honolulu. A former resident of Kyoto, he has traveled widely through East and Southeast Asia.
"Europeans and Americans traveling to distant parts of the world in the 19th century were, for the most part, well grounded in generalizations about their own culture as well as those of the peoples they encountered. Broad concepts, such as 'Christendom' and 'the Orient' were more commonly used than 'the West,' 'Asia," or 'the modern world.' Assumptions of a widespread cultural unity in places like 'China' or 'the Far East' by Jesuit missionaries, European and American savants, and early Western travelers supported this simplistic approach. This relative absence of particularity in our mental images of other cultures is not surprising if one believes knowledge grows in the conscious mind from the general to the particular. As one historian has noted, 'Only by large generalities can we begin to think and talk, especially in a great age of sociology.' This manner of thinking can, however, have terrible consequences when manifested in religious and nationalistic doctrine or when it molds and guides state economic, military, or social policies. Japan lent itself particularly well to fictitious generalization as word spread of its "opening up" to the world in the 19th century.

" As Oscar Wilde noted in 1889, '...Japan is a pure invention. There is no such country, there are no such people.' He was responding to the European infatuation at the time with traditional Japanese arts and imagery known as japonisme. Around the same time, Americans, too, were going through a phase of exoticizing Japan which had very little to do with understanding the country as it was. The 'exotic Japan of the 1880s and 1890s was in fact, as Patrick Smith has commented, '...erecting factories, ...conscripting an army, ...preparing a parliament. There were universities, offices, department stores, (and) banks....Wilde (however) was ahead of his time. We now have a word, albeit a contentious one, for the phenomenon....We call it Orientalism.'

" The Orientalist's 'Japan' was a static land — inscrutable, exotic, prostrate — and in every way the opposite of the West. By denying the Japanese a part in writing their own cultural history visiting Westerners of the late 19th century assumed a kind of superiority which persists in some forms to the present day. Nevertheless, Orientalism was by no means exclusively a practice of Westerners. As Smith has pointed out, 'Wilde ...observed that the image of Japan abroad in the last century was partly a concoction of the Japanese themselves.'

"America was a latecomer to empire in the East. As Edward Said has made clear, America's Orientalism really began after World War II and has focused in part on Asia's strategic and economic importance. Media sources have further perpetuated old myths about 'the mysterious Orient' — a reclusive, if not barbaric land — originated by Commodore Perry, William Griffis, Lafcadio Hearn, Percival Lowell, and many others writing in the last half of the 19th century.

"America's 'Japan' during the first century of international relations was a multifarious series of exotic descriptions, scientific reports, strategic plans, commercial treaties, Christian designs, imminent fears, and mirror images, delineated by the pens of seafarers, educators, missionaries, diplomats, and merchants alike — a collection of works whose contents continue to build and feed upon each other. The average American is still burdened with this legacy today when he or she reads about the country in books, newspapers, and magazines or otherwise contemplates 'Japan.'

" The complex and often contradictory picture Americans painted of Japan during the first century of relations divulges more about the values, mores, and norms of their own society than about the distant land and people they glossed over. Letters, journals, and interpretations published by Americans during this period may therefore be divided into three general phases representing specific ways of viewing 'the Orient' as well as distinct attitudes towards Japan during different historical periods.

" The initial diplomatic, and often coercive, approaches of Commodore Matthew Perry and Consul Townsend Harris came at a time of serious division and uncertainty within the United States. Paradoxically, the success of this projection of power represented America's inchoate rise to world power status. As reflected in their copious writings, these men assumed a recalcitrant and therefore backward Japan needed US tutelage, guidance, and prodding to force it to join 'the march of civilization."'

"The second phase represented an attitudinal shift and began after America's recovery from the devastation of the Civil War. Science and technology were rapidly feeding the country's ambitions and overt US colonization of distant peoples had begun. Accounts by men of science, as well as visiting missionaries, produced a more complex image of Japan typical of Western travelers to the Far East of this era. On the one hand, the peculiarities of Eastern history, religion, and culture were deciphered, detailed, and analyzed in a detached and rational manner. On the other hand, many of these writers were fixated on an idealized romantic image of 'the Orient' which had more to do with their personal desires and expectations for exotica than the actual substance of Japanese civilization. "The final phase of America's circumscription of Japan is reflected in books published from the 1920s through the end of the perception-warping Allied Occupation in the 1950s. Years of racial antagonism and conflicting hegemonies in the Asia-Pacific region created images which eventually led to military consequences. By the time the first century of relations had passed, America's views of its 'Oriental' foil, in whose image it could understand and justify its own actions, had come full circle."

Justin
Americans who identify themselves today as Asian number about 12 million. That is roughly 4 percent of the total US population. Asian born residents of the US amount to 7 million. That is a substantial number of people. Many of these people are concerned about the care of their ancestor's graves back in the old country. They have petitioned the government to allow the remains of their ancestors to be imported for reburial in the US. The government has agreed to allow the entry of Asian ancestors in the form of ashes or in hermetically sealed coffins. These cherished ancestors are reburied with due care taken to ensure proper orientation of the body. The practice seems to indicate that Perry's original promise to the Japanese finally may be kept. It has taken us 150 years to finally achieve that goal. President Filmore and the Senate may have ratified the Treaty but it takes the American people to find the will to carry it out.

robert b. iadeluca
Mal, your link taking us to a quote by Thom Burns of Hawaii was posted twice but this gives me the opportunity to say it bears reading twice. It causes us to ponder as we try in this discussion group to unearth the "truth" about the Orient.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
I had trouble posting the link, thus the duplicate, and have just deleted the wrong post. Here is the link to the entire Thom Burns article if anyone wants to read it.

AMERICA'S JAPAN

Malryn (Mal)
A question. Has the west of christendom always considered itself to be superior to the "barbary" of the Orient? How much we have missed because we couldn't relax our points of view enough to consider others? It seems to me that it's taking centuries to overcome rigid, unbending views. If this were done, could it prevent wars through misunderstanding? LIke who's right, anyway?

Mal

OrchidLady
MAL,I think the West does consider itself superior to the Orient, and in some things, it is. There are sometimes, maybe many times, answers to the question, "whose right, anyway?"

There is an order of nuns called the Medical Missionaries of Mary. They are nurses and doctors, most of them, with some support sisters. Their regional headquarters was in Winchester Ma years ago. I went to a fair there about 10 or 15 years ago, and I started talking with one of the nuns, who had baked Irish bread for sale, and we were talking about it.

I asked her where she had served (she was quite old then) and she said mostly in China. As a young nun she had been sent there to work in an orphanage. This was shortly before WW2. The natives knew that for some strange reason the foreign nuns would take abandoned babies. So sometimes old women would bring babies to the convent, and the nuns would give them something like 25 cents. for each baby. The nuns knew that many of these babies would die, but they took them anyway, and tried to save them. And, in accordance with their religion, they also baptized them, as they felt this was essential to insure they would go to heaven.

One day an old woman came with two or three babies, and the sister I was talking with paid her 25 cents for two of them but didn't have the money for the third. She figured the woman would give her the baby, rather than be bothered to carry it and drop it off someplace. But the woman didnt - she took the baby by the ankles, and smashed it against a wall. The nun told me she cried for days. An old nun, who had worked in China for many years tried to console her, and she said, "that's the way they are, that's what they do. She didn't want to take the baby with her, and she didn't want to leave it as you would get it, without giving her some money." And the ironic part is that after the war, the communist govt. threw out this order of nuns, along with others, saying they had taken babies into their orphanage, and let them die.

Sometimes there are answers to the question "whose right, anyway?" and we can't say, "well, they are just different from us". The face that in many instances we fail and don't live up to our values doesn't change the fact that in many instances our western values are more civilized, more humane, more respectful of human life. Remember how Sr. Teresa started her work in India by taking dying people, laying on the street or in the gutters, and bringing them into a shed where they could at least lie on a thin mattress, and die with whatever care another human could give them."

I think you can weigh up in a scale so many cases like these, and similar ones, and come up with the answer that Western/American culture is just possibly superior in areas that really matter. Of course, if you are discussing their art, their elegance, etc. they probably would beat us hands down. Louise

robert b. iadeluca
Is the difference (if there is one) that Western Civilization, in general, respects each individual? There was a time when the U.S. Navy would brag that if a sailor fell overboard, the ship would stop and hunt for him.

Robby

Jere Pennell
If you are trying to locate the towns of Shimoda and Hakodate in Mal's link to the Treaty of Kanagawa, you will find them using the spelling above. Shimoda is on the island of Honshu on the Izu Peninsula and Hakodate is on the southern tip of the northern island of Hokkaido.

Thanks for those links Mal.

Jere

OrchidLady
It is a difference - Western Civilization in general respects the individual and life, more than the East. I'm not blind to the fact that we so often fail to live up to our values, but they are there none the less, and when we fail them, we know that in some way we didn't measure up to something that in our hearts, we believe to be right. Louise

Justin
Robby: Larger warships did not stop for man overboard. Destroyers were often despached to the area to look the man. PBY's were sometimes employed, especially for downed flyers. Often, man overboard was just a note in the log. The peacetime Navy operates on a different principle.

Justin
Louise:The art of the Orient does not beat us "hands down". Oriental Art has its own virtues and excells within its medium but in general, Western art is far superior in scope, conception, technigue, and application. The only area in which I think they are superior is in the handicraft of lacquer application.

Malryn (Mal)
Maps of Honshu and Hokkaido.

MAPS

Malryn (Mal)
I am constantly intrigued by how our backgrounds affect our points of view. I was raised in a system of beliefs where there were no saints or devils and there was no sin. No heaven, no hell. What then did we believe, you might ask? We believed In ourselves and our judgment, in a pragmatic point of view reached not just on our own but by very wise people who had come before us, far far away in our heritage.

I can see every reason why the woman killed the baby for lack of 25 cents. Why should the child live and starve? What good is a life that has as a future only suffering, pain, neglect and starvation? No good, in my estimation, so why not stop it before that happens?

Yes -- but who is to judge? Who is to say that life might not work into something less painful? I don't know, but based on observations made over many years, I would say the chance is slim.

Just for the sake of argument, I wonder if the runt of the litter should not be disposed of early because it (he or she) becomes a problem? I spent years of my life caring for and nurturing a child who was brain-damaged at birth. No one ever told me this. I have no doctor's proclamation that what I say is true. All I know is that this child disrupted the lives of several people and seriously damaged a famly before an accident many year later which proved, yes, this person was not okay as far as brain power goes. Should this person have been smashed against a wall early on like the baby Louise mentioned before such damage was done? What a question for this mother to consider!

By the same token I ask whether people like me who are halt and lame, for whatever reason, should be allowed to survive? Pragmatically I will say no. Emotionally, I say yes.

What is the difference between Eastern and Western thinking? Is it emotion versus reason? What am I and my thinking? Eastern or Western? Or just a human being? I don't know.

Mal

Justin
Mal: you raise a tough social question. Who can decide such questions?I think that while the child is in the womb, the mother must make such decisions. What criteria she uses, I don't ask. The papers were recently full of two babes born with heads joined. That pregnancy should have ended early on. But it didn't. Now a team of specialists must try to separate them. Even if the surgery is successful, each will have half a head. The liklihood is that one will die and perhaps both will die. There was another birth recently in which the babe had neither arms nor legs. The mother knew it early on but refused abortion. I have to question the brain power of such women. She could not defy the advice of her church. What kind of a church is it that endorses such choices?

Justin
While browsing recently in a used book store I came upon a volume written prior to 1895 by a man who was hired to organize schools in Tokio (Edo) upon the American principle. He set foot on Japanese soil on December 29, 1870. He says his first walk was taken in company with an American missionary who once was a Marine in Perry's squadron and who later invented the jin riki sha. The book is titled "The Religions of Japan" (from the dawn of History to the era of the Meiji). His name is William Griffis. I bought the book, of course.

Jere Pennell
Mal

The discussion of the ending of life is in another discussion and I would love to have you post there and we could discuss it thoroughly.

You also said, "I was raised in a system of beliefs where there were no saints or devils and there was no sin. No heaven, no hell. What then did we believe, you might ask?

I too was raised that way and learning that not following the right way caused pain or suffering. Following the right way or doing the right thing reduced suffering or pain. The more we do right the less suffering there is. Yes, others say I have a "perfection syndrome." Not a bad price to pay for a peaceful life. This too may belong in a religious discussion if I continue but I won't.

Thanks for the maps, Mal. You are the right hand of robby and ease his burden a lot. You also make this discussion much more interesting and understandable.

Jere

Malryn (Mal)
Thank you, Jere. Recently I wrote and told Robby that the main reason I do searches is for myself. My curiosity will never be satisfied, and the part of me which remains a child says, "Look, Mom and Dad, see what I found!", so I post links to my "treasures" here. Frankly, I have enough trouble being my own "right hand" to take on the rôle of being anybody else's.

Okay, now I want to find out about the Era of Meiji and see how the Shogunate was overthrown and the Emperor was restored. I also want to see if I can learn why the Industrial Revolution made a peaceful people whose artwork I think is lovely turn to another kind of art -- the art of war.

Mal

MaryPage
I am in agreement that MAL'S example touches on a question in our civilization of today that brings on a huge hue and cry, yet is so very basic. Often fetuses have formed in error, like a mistake occurs in the genetic code or a stitch is dropped from the pattern, if you will. And often "nature" knows this and tries to abort naturally. Today our medicine men stop this action and give drugs and total bed rest. Then the defective child is born, quite often to a short life of misery (and expense to family or taxpayers), or even worse, a long one.

Not trying to argue any point here whatsoever. Just giving an example of matters not yet resolved by our becoming "civilized". Until persons of clean-slate minds and good will towards all can get together and weigh the pros and cons and reach a consensus, I doubt they will be.

Jere Pennell
Mal, you wrote, "I also want to see if I can learn why the Industrial Revolution made a peaceful people whose artwork I think is lovely turn to another kind of art -- the art of war."

This is what I was taught in a Japanese classroom at Jochi University in recent history in 1950-51.

Any country that desires to move ahead must have three things to succeed. Money, raw materials, and manpower. Japan had two of the three. To get the third, Japan needed to get the raw materials yo fuel the East Asia Co-prosperity Sphere.

As Japan attempted to get the raw materials like the major western powers, a coalition of western powers, headed by the ABC, (American, British, and the Chinese) with the help of Russia, Germany and others attempted to deny Japan the right to expand into the Asian market places by the use of trade embargoes. The US cut off exports of scrap metal and fuel to Japan, the British embargoed rubber and other materials from SE Asia. This was done even as those same powers were dividing up China for themselves and prohibiting Japan from doing it.

If Japan were to seize those raw materials from SE Asia (Burma, Singapore, Thailand, etc) then it would have to protect its extended supply line from the American Pacific fleet stationed in Hawaii and the British fleet stationed in Singapore.

This justification for their action was taught by the Japanese universities just after war WWII.

Jere

OrchidLady
<JUSTIN, the woman who brought the babies to the nuns had another alternative, which she chose to reject. She could have given the baby to the sisters. In that case, the baby would have been cared for and given the medical treatment which was available at that time - remember the sisters were medical people themselves - and are today.

IN this case, the child had a chance. She would have been cared for, taught how to read and write, and probably some simple trade, where she could make a living. Doing unskilled labor of some sort. If she had the potential to do more, the nuns might have been able to transfer her to another convent where she could have received more education, enough to enable her to make a living which was beyond the capabilities of what could be provided by a job on the lowest rungs of work.

Or, there might have been a Chinese man who was looking for a wife, and the nuns could have arranged for a marriage. In a case like this, the nuns would have been careful to insure that he would be a good husband to her. Given their own choice, they would not see marriage as a good to be attained at any cost. The man would have to be right.

Or, one more alternative - the children would be baptised and given the general Catholic education. But not all would choose to follow the Catholic religion when they had grown and left the orphanage. If this girl did choose to, and wanted to remain with the sister, and be one of them, as some did, then she would either be given the education she needed for that order, or for another, and her life would be a simple one of service to others, and plain living. Not a bad alternative considering what we see these days.

But the woman didn't choose the alternative of leaving the baby there with the sisters. She killed the baby because of money. Louise

robert b. iadeluca
"With astonishing finesse the Westernizing leaders used the baronial lords as aides in overthrowing the Shogunate and restoring the Emperor, and then used the Imperial authority to overthrow feudalism and introduce Occidental industry.

"So in 1867 the feudal lords persuaded the last of the shoguns, Keiki, to abdicate. 'Almost all the acts of the administration,' said Keiki, 'are far from perfect, and I confess it with shame that the present unsatisfactory condition of affairs is due to my shortcomings and incompetence. Now that foreign intercourse becomes daily more extensive, unless the tovernment is directed from one central authority, the foundations of the state will fall to pieces.' The Emperor Meiji replied tersely that 'Tokugawa Keiki's proposal to restore the administrative authority to the Imperial Court is accepted,' and on January 1, 1868, the new 'Era of Meiji' was officially begun.

"The old religion of Shinto was revised, and an intensive propaganda convinced the people that the restored emperor was divine in lineage and wisdom, and that his decrees were to be accepted as the edicts of the gods."

During World War II we were told that the Japanese people believed that the Emperor was divine. If I now understand this correctly, the divine emperor lost his divinity in the 16th century, became divine again in 1868, and lost his divinity again in 1945. I wonder what the Japanese people were thinking while all this was going on.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
The following article can be found at THIS SITE.
SHINTO



The Religion of Nature Worship, Emperor Worship, and Purity



Shinto (the way of the gods), traditionally dating back to 660 B. C., is a loosely organized religion of the Japanese people embracing a wide variety of beliefs and practices. In its most basic sense Shinto is a religious form of Japanese patriotism. The mythology of Shintoism teaches that Japan and the Japanese people were brought into being by special divine creation and that their emperors were literally descendants of the Sun Goddess. In Japan a person may in good conscience be a Buddhist, a Confucian, and a member of a Shinto sect at the same time.



The two most important sacred books of Shintoism are the Kojiki (Chronicles of Ancient Events) and the Nihongi (Chronicles of Japan). The Kojiki mythology reports that in the beginning were the kami (gods, mana, occult force). Two of these primeval kami or deities were Izanagi (male-who-invites) and Izanami (female who-invites). After giving birth to the land of Japan they produced many other kami.



Izanami died after giving birth to the kami of fire. Izanagi journeyed to Hades to find her. Finding her decayed body crawling with maggots he fled in horror back to the land of the living. To purify himself he entered a body of water and when he washed his left eye there came into existence the Sun Goddess, the Great Kami Amaterasu; and when he washed his right eye Tsukiyom the Moon Kami, emerged. After years of struggle the Japanese people were waring against each other and the Sun Goddess sent her grandson, Ninigi, to become the first emperor of Japan. Shinto is unique among the religions of the world in representing the Supreme Being as feminine in gender.



Although mythological tradition has the first Japanese emperor enthroned in the seventh century B.C., modern scholars think the actual history of Japan did not begin until the third century A. D. After the fourth century A. D. the Japanese came under the influence of Buddhism, Taoism, and Confucianism. By the end of the sixth century Mahayana Buddhism had taken a firm foothold on Japan. It was at this time that the term "Shinto" was introduced to distinguish the native Japanese religion from the new foreign religion.



Little by little the boundaries between Buddhism and Shintoism were obliterated. The concerns of day-to-day life became the domain of the Shinto side of religion while the concerns of the afterlife were served by the Buddhists.. The Japanese developed distinctive forms of Buddhism such as Zen, Pure Land, and Nichiren.



Shinto almost died out as a viable religion but in the seventeenth century it was revitalized by tough-minded military leaders. A combination of Shinto and Confucianism was used to develop the warrior code of Bushido. The samurai (knights) who followed this code emphasized loyalty, gratitude, courage, justice, truthfulness, politeness, reserve, and honor. In Japan suicide has often been encouraged to avoid dishonor, escape from a bad life situation, or as a means of protest. When dishonored the Bushido warrior was expected to kill himself by hara-kiri.

Shinto teaches the importance of personal cleanliness and the sense of communal guilt. Apart from subservience to the Emperor, Shintoism has no definite set of theological beliefs or code of morality. Morality and theology are naturalistic. Motoori (1730-1801), one of the most important scholars in the history of Shintoism, explains the lack of ethics in Shintoism: "It is because the Japanese were truly moral in their practice that they require no theory of morals."



After Commodore Perry in the mid nineteenth century opened Japan to outside influence sweeping changes have occurred in the country. The Constitution of 1889 established a state supported Shinto but other religions were allowed to exist and propagate. State Shinto supported thousands of shrines and priests. The grand imperial shrine at Ise was dedicated to the mother goddess of Japan, Amaterasu. Every loyal Japanese citizen wishes to visit the Ise Shrine at least once in their life time.



There are many Shinto sects which tend to be oriented in three major categories. First, those whose emphasis is on mountain or nature worship. Second, those who stress shamanism, divination, and faith healing such as the Tenri-kyo (Teachings of Divine Reason) sect. The third type of sectarian Shinto is more in tune with historic Shinto, reviving the myths of the origin of Japan, stressing purification rites, fasting, breath control, and other techniques similar to the Yoga cults of Hinduism. Domestic Shinto is practiced in many homes. The kami-dana (god shelf) is found in residences. Flowers or food may be placed before this altar daily or brief prayers and devotions may take place.



Shinto had become such an inseparable part of Japanese militarism the American occupation forces felt it necessary to direct the abolition of state support of Shinto in December of 1945. New Year's Day 1946 Emperor Hirohito disavowed the belief in his divine nature and complete religious freedom was guaranteed to every citizen.

moxiect
From what I have been reading I can't help noting that perhaps on the eastern side of 'old country' that ancient Japan could be considered the 'eastern melting pot' were as on the western side ancient Sicily was. In today's world I believe that the America's now hold that distinction.

Apparantly each civilization has had a period of greatness that enables man, whether it be religion, politics,stupid wars and bullies who prey on weakness, to progress to a new a better life style for each region of the world we live in.

Justin
Louise: My guess is the woman who brought the babies to the nuns did not know all that rosy stuff you mention and thought of the nuns as crazy foreign devils. The baby was just a piece of merchandise to her and it became excess inventory when the nun refused to pay for it. She may also have known that the nun would be horrified when she smashed the baby's skull and as a result, be more ready to pay for the next baby she brought her. Alternatively, she may have thought she did the baby a favor.

Justin
Jere: If you were in the university class you speak of, I am sure you told them that the Rape of Nanking and the trumped up action at the bridge was not the way to conduct trade. Business can be cut throat but not literally.

robert b. iadeluca
"Armed with this new power, the Westernizers achieved almost a miracle in the rapid transformation of their country. Ito and Innouye braved their way through every prohibition and obstacle to Europe, studied its industries and institutions, marveled at the railroad, the steamship, the telegraph and the battleship, and came back inflamed with a patriotic resolve to Europeanize Japan.

"Englishmen were brought in to superintend the construction of railways, the erection of telegraphs, and the building of a navy. Frenchmen were commissioned to recast the laws and train the army. Germans were assigned to the organization of medicine and public health. Americans were engaged to establish a system of universal education. To make matters complete, Italians were imported to instruct the Japanese in sculpture and painting.

"There were temporary, even bloody, reactions, and at times the spirit of Japan rebelled against this hectic and artificial metamorphosis, but in the end the machine had its way. The Industrial Revolution added Japan to its realm."

Any possibility these days of Westernizers "transforming" any nations in the Orient? It should be emphasized that the Japanese had strong leaders of their own who wanted such a transformation to take place.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
The English brought knowledge of railway construction to the Japanese and NOW LOOK what the Japanese did with that!!

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
There was a time when the Westerners taught the Japanese the marvels of the telegraph and NOW READ THIS

Robby

OrchidLady
I don't know about the orient, Robby, but from what I read about the mid-east, its many problems, social, economic, feudal government structures, etc. it seems like they need a lot of help - although I don't know if they would take it. Louise

Justin
Americans contributed educational methods to the Japanese but unfortunately many of the people who took up the task were missionaries. One of those was William Griffis, who took up residence in Japan in 1870. His task was to teach the Japanese about the American public school system but his interest in life was passing on the Christian doctrine. The program must have succeeded because I understand the Japanese have made some significant improvements on the system.

robert b. iadeluca
"Of necessity that Revolution (the only real revolution in modern history) lifted to wealth and economic power a new class of men -- manufacturers, merchants and financiers -- who in the old Japan had been ranked at the very bottom of the social scale. This rising bourgeoisie quietly used its means and influence first to destroy feudalism, and then to reduce to an imposing pretense the restored authority of the throne.

"In 1871 the Government persuaded the barons to surrender their ancient privileges, and consoled them with government bonds in exchange for their lands. Bound by ties of interest to the new society, the old aristocracy gave its services loyally to the Government, and enabled it to effect with bloodless ease the transition from a medieval to a modern state.

"Ito Hirobumi, recently returned from a second visit to Europe, created, in imitation of Germany, a new nobility of five orders -- princes, marquises, count, viscounts and barons -- but these men were the rewarded servants, not the feudal enemies, of the industrial regime."

Amazing!! How such a revolution could take place in such a short period of time. And how so much of this could take place as the result of the vision of one man! And I continue to wonder what the general population was thinking while the "divinity" of their emperor waxed and waned.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
Here is a BRIEF BIO of Ito Hirobumi. Can anyone here think of any other person in our time who has caused such an amazing change in a nation in such a short period of time?

Robby

Bubble
Kamal AtaTurk?

Malryn (Mal)



" I regard religion itself as quite unnecessary for a nation's life; science is far above superstition; and what is religion, Buddhism or Christianity, but superstition, and therefore a possible source of weakness to a nation?



" Since government is concerned with the administration of the country as a whole it does not follow that its acts are always favorable to all individuals."


Ito Hirobumi

Malryn (Mal)
Below is a link to the Constitution of Japan. Chapter II contains a renunciation of war. If one nation in the world can do this, why can't all the rest?

Chapter II



Article 9:



"Aspiring sincerely to an international peace based on justice and order, the Japanese people forever renounce war as a sovereign right of the nation and the threat or use of force as means of settling international disputes. 2) In order to accomplish the aim of the preceding paragraph, land, sea, and air forces, as well as other war potential, will never be maintained. The right of belligerency of the state will not be recognized."



THE JAPANESE CONSTITUTION

OrchidLady
Ito Hirobumi was certainly a strong minded man. I wonder if Hitler ever read what he wrote. I think religious beliefs, liberal, tolerant, beliefs which start with the premise that the believer should first work on eliminating those things in his own character, which are evil, wrong, harmful to others. Until he's mastered his own weaknesses, he has no right to try to "reform" others. Religious beliefs along these lines contribute to a strong, humane, compassionate society.

Of course if you don't want any religious beliefs in a state, its probably easy to construct a scientific reason for killing millions of people in concentration camps. A reasonable approach would be to save the strong who are capable of work, and those among the skilled who can provide something for the state. The rest probably should be killed off - there's no logical reason for letting them live. Louise

OrchidLady
Anne, I think there's quite a bit of difference between the social and economic problems we have in this country, and the same problems in much of the third world. We have our problems but in no way are our lives devastated and destroyed by these problems.

Have a chat someday with some of the women who live in Muslim countries, Afghan and Saudi Arabia in particular. Or observe the thousands who are probably going to die of starvation in Zimbabwe (sp?)as a result of the government driving out the white, and some of the black prosperous farmers, to give the land to ex-soldiers who don't know any more about farming than I do.

Of course, if famine does occur, our country, so beset with terrible social and economis problems, will join the rest of the western word, England, France, Germany, etc. etc. and send help to these poor people

This seems to be our role in life. Others sneer at us, condemn us, and when the leaders of other countries screw up big time, they"figuratively" look at us and say, "well, where's the aid?"

Louise

Lady C
ROBBY:

In 1871 I don't think the general population was terribly aware of what was happening in the government or the divinity or non-divinity of the Emporer. There was no radio, or TV and I don't think the literacy rate was very high even if newspapers were available in the cities. (Were they?) It wasn't exactly the information age. And the peasants were probably more concerned with providing food and shelter for their families and never gave a thought to government unless the local powers were increasing taxes or doing them some sort of damage.

OrchidLady
I think you put it very well, Lady C. Your point of view makes sense to me. I remember that none of my generation knew that FDR couldn't walk. He was never shown walking, just either seated or standing upright, still. There wasn't a wide dissemenation of information when I was young, we didn't know a lot of what was happening, and I think the Japanese peasant was in a similar position, vis-a-vis the emperor. Louise

Anne Kerr
I wasn't comparing our problems with other countries. I was merely trying to say that some could (and maybe even would) say the same about us. We are disliked by many other countries, I believe, partly because of our attitude of "we know best." And we haven't cleaned up our own messes. Now I'll go back to lurking....

robert b. iadeluca
As we near the end of Volume I (Our Oriental Heritage), it is good to hear from some of you Lurkers. Your views are important to us!

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
The "general population" were followers of Shinto. It is stated in this religion that the emperor is descended from the Sun Goddess, and therefore a god. People believed this was true and worshiped him, as they worshiped the sun goddess. Shinto is one of a very few religions in the world in which the Supreme Deity was female. What follows below is a quote from the article about Shinto I posted yesterday.


" Izanami died after giving birth to the kami (god) of fire. Izanagi journeyed to Hades to find her. Finding her decayed body crawling with maggots he fled in horror back to the land of the living. To purify himself he entered a body of water and when he washed his left eye there came into existence the Sun Goddess, the Great Kami Amaterasu; and when he washed his right eye Tsukiyom the Moon Kami, emerged. After years of struggle the Japanese people were warring against each other and the Sun Goddess sent her grandson, Ninigi, to become the first emperor of Japan. Shinto is unique among the religions of the world in representing the Supreme Being as feminine in gender."

Malryn (Mal)
I had polio in 1935 when I was 7 years old and knew Franklin Delano Roosevelt had polio. It's hard for me to understand why people were not supposed to know this fact. It didn't make him any less of a president, did it?

Roosevelt was instrumental in starting a group dedicated to rehabilitation of polio victims at Warm Springs in Georgia. The March of Dimes was started during FDR's administration to help people like me when we couldn't afford to pay for surgery, treatment, braces and other orthotic appliances. It also provided money to do research for vaccines to stop this terrible illness. It was through the March of Dimes and the Commonwealth of Massachusetts that I received a tuition scholarship to college. There were others like me who received similar grants.

Mal

OrchidLady
MAL, I think in those days presidents were presented as kind of superior beings, without human failings. Apparently the powers behind the administration, any administration, felt that the people would reject a man who was less than perfect.

They didn't -and dont - give the public enough credit to have good judgement. Most of us look for honesty, competence, good judgement, self control, etc. in a president. We don't plan on having them canonized. Considering the quality of so many "public servants" today, especially in Congress, I am thankful for any good qualities we may find in the president, whoever he may be. Louise

Malryn (Mal)
Is it possible that Ito Hirobumi banned the Shinto religion because the worship of the emperor as a divinity took power away from the government he was trying to set up in Japan? Now the question is: Did that government help that nation?

In line with superstitions, it was as short a time ago as the 1970's that someone asked me if my having contracted polio had affected my brain in a negative way. That's what this person had been told was one of the effects of the illness. I explained that the polio viri attack the central nervous system, not the brain; that the brain is in no way damaged by this illness.

Do you suppose the fact that Roosevelt had polio was covered up because this superstition was widespread and prevalent? People outside the medical community knew very little about poliomyelitis in those days.

Mal

OrchidLady
Yes, it could be. Given the wide ignorance of science and medicine that the general public has, it isn't hard for them to figure that if muscles in your body don't work right, it figures the brain must have something wrong with it. Louise

Malryn (Mal)
Poliomyelitis does not affect the brain. If anything, because of the challenges the muscle-paralyzing effects of the illness cause, the polio survivor becomes smarter than he or she would have been otherwise. It takes brain power to figure out ways to compensate for arm and leg and back muscles that don't work properly, if at all, and to figure out ways to get along in a not altogether easy and unsympathetic-about-signs of-physical-weakness world.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
We Virginians are having a luncheon on Saturday, Sept. 21st, in my town of Warrenton and Mal is making serious efforts to come up to our state and attend. When she attends (AND SHE WILL!), I will check her out thoroughly and let the rest of you know how much of a "bird brain" she is.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
"Perhaps the most significant feature of the new Constitution was the exemption of the army and the navy from any superior except the Emperor. Never forgetting the humiliation of 1853, Japan resolved to build an armed force that would make her master of her own destiny, and ultimately lord of the East. Not only did she establish conscription, she made every school in the land a military training camp and a nursery of nationalist ardor.

"With an amazing aptitude for organization and discipline, she soon brought her armed power to a point where she could speak to the 'foreign barbarians' on equal terms, and might undertake that gradual absorption of China which Europe had contemplated but never achieved. In 1894, resenting the despatch of Chinese troops to put down an insurrection in Korea, and China's persistent reference to Korea as a tributary state under Chinese suzerainty, Japan declared war upon her ancient tutor, surprised the world with the speed of her victory, and exacted from China the acknowledgement of Korea's independence, the cession of Formosa and Port Arthur (at the tip of the Liaotung Peninsula), and an indemnity of 200,000,000 taels.

"German and France supported Russia in 'advising' Japan to withdraw from Port Arthur on condition of receiving an additional indemnity of 30,000,000 taels (from China). Japan yielded, but kept the rebuff in bitter memory while she waited for revenge."

Interesting how nations can be just like individuals. Nations can be humiliated, resolve, want to be a master or lord, speak to foreigners, be resentful, have bitter memories, and feel revengeful.

Robby

Tejas
The comments about FDR reminded me of an excellent biography of Lincoln's patron saint, Henry Clay. At the end of a long, very long political career, in which he tore this nation apart so many times because of his ambition to live in that lovely mansion at 1600 Pennsylvania, his doctors finally announced that he died of tuberculosis. Of course, many times he did live with some of his doctor friends, so they could nurse him back to health. But the fact that he did have tuberculosis was very carefully kept from the public. In one of his many essays published in a book of about 1500 pages, Gore Vidal stated that one of the worst things that ever happened to President Lincoln was that four-volume biography by Carl Sandburg. In that series, he was so firmly canonized that even the most careful researchers could not find anything more to say. However, most doctors are reasonably certain that he had an obscure hereditary disease called Marfan's syndrome. It produces both unusual height, slenderness, and what the nineteenth century doctors called melancholy. Please let me know when I wander off topic. One of my favorite folk songs, part of a musical in which I starred as a junior in high school, is "I wonder as I wander."

JR

robert b. iadeluca
As we move into contemporary Japan, it is difficult not to make comparisons with American and other contemporary nations and figures. We will do out best, however, to remain with Durant's theme to the very end.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
Here is a BRIEF HISTORY OF KOREA for those wanting to make a side trip.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
Here is an EVEN BETTER HISTORY COMPLETE WITH MAP. Click onto the map to get a large version, give it time to load, and please note Korea's proximity to both China and Japan. Most strategic!!

Robby

Justin
I am sure it will not surprise Mal that the article in the Japanese constitution which forbids making war is the result of MacArthurs efforts to neutralize the nation. The only reason the Japanese are able to continue to hold that position is that the US is committed to defend her in the event of aggression. We are similarly committed for Germany. Neither nation maintained a standing army until recently when Germany enlisted a force which has been used in UN missions.

robert b. iadeluca
"Japan prepared herself grimly for that conflict with Russia which imperialistic expansion in both empires made apparently inevitable. Availing herself of England's fear tht Russia might advance into India, Japan concluded with the mistress of the seas an alliance (1902-1922) by which each party contracted to come to the aid of its ally in case either should go to war with a third power, and another power should intervene. Seldom had England's diplomats signed away so much of England's liberty.

"When, in 1904, the war with Russia began, English and American bankers lent Japan huge sums to finance her victories against the Tsar. Nogi captured Port Arthur, and moved his army north in time to turn the scales in the slaughter of Mukden -- the bloodiest battle in history before our own incomparable Great War. Germany and France seem to have contemplated coming to the aid of Russia by diplomacy or arms, but President Roosevelt made it known that in such case he would 'promptly side with Japan.'

"Meanwhile a Russian squadron of twenty-nine ships had gallantly sailed around the Cape of Goood Hope, in the longest war-voyage ever made by a modern fleet, to face the Japanese in their own waters. Admiral Togo, making the first known naval use of radio, kept himself informed of the Russian flotilla's course, and pounced upon it in the Straits of Tsushima on May 17, 1905.

"To all his commanders Togo flashed a characteristic message: 'The rise or fall of the Empire depends on this battle.' The Japanese lost 116 killed and 538 wounded. The Russians lost 4000 dead and 7000 prisoners, and all but three of their ships were captured or sunk."

What ever happened to "peaceful" Japan?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
Maybe some background is necessary here. Durant tells us that in 1881, there came to Japan a new system of law based largely on the Napoleonic Code. The new Constitution exempted the army and navy from any superior except the emperor. Durant says, "Never forgetting the humiliation of 1853, Japan resolved to build an armed force that would make her master of her own destiny, and ultimately lord of the East." 1853 was when Commodore Perry's fleet entered the waters of Japan, and treaties were signed.

Durant also tells us that in 1894 Chinese troops were sent to put down an insurrection in Korea. China insisted that Korea was "a tributary state under Chinese suzerainty. Japan resented this and declared war upon China. She "surprised the world with the speed of her victory; exacted from China the acknowledgment of Korea's independence, the cession of Formosa and Port Arthur and an indemnity."

From another source I found that Russia pressured China into granting it a lease for the strategically important port of Port Arthur (Lu-Shin) at the tip of the Liaotung Peninsula in southern Manchuria. Russia occupied the peninsula. It forced Japan to relinquish the right to the peninsula even after Japan's victory over China in the Sino-Japan war of 1894-95.

In 1896 Russia concluded an alliance with China over Japan and won rights to extend the Trans-Siberian Railroad across China-held Manchuria to Vladivostok.

It sounds to me as if Japan was being pushed around by both China and Russia. Perhaps her "peacefulness" went away in what Justin refers to as self-defense.

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
I hope I can post these figures here so they're legible.

State ----- Entry ----- Exit ----- Combat Forces ----- Population ----- Losses ------

Japan ----- 1904 ----- 1905 ----- 400000 ----- 45000000 ----- 85000 -----

Russia ----- 1904 ----- 1905 ----- 2000000 ----- 136000000 ----- 125000 -----

Malryn (Mal)
Justin, who takes care of neutral Sweden and neutral Switzerland if they are attacked?

Mal

Elizabeth N
I want to recommend a film made in Japan in 1992. The premise is that an ageing American baseball player (Tom Selleck) is traded to a Tokyo team. He finds there a close fellowship of US players on different teams who "hang" together for support. They are affectionately regarded because they play good baseball but are mercilessly teased for their bad manners, ignorance and arrogance.


Truly comic, yet a wonderful window on Japan's culture. One Japanese woman (future wife of our hero) says, "Japan takes the best from all over the world and makes it her own." One of my favorite films.

Jere Pennell
Elizabeth N

I recommend Shogun the movie to further enlighten you about the Japanese culture althought both are far from the whole truth.

Jere

OrchidLady
MAL, I can only give you "recent" circumstances re: who takes care of Sweden and Switzerland.

I don't think there is any designated "protector" for either country.But it wasn't necessary in WW2, and probably wouldn't be necessary in another war, if it were the traditional kind, involving just European countries fighting among themselves.

Both sides in WW2 had a tacit understanding that Switzerland would not be bothered by either. It was important as a contact point between them - even in war times enemies have messages to get to the other side about various matters. Also it was a good listening post for the spies of both sides to try and find out as much as they could about the plans of the other. And finally, it was a safe place for the wealthy in Europe to store their money until the hostilities were over. I read once that the mega wealthy in European countries (and hopefully not in this country) really have no loyalties to any country, just to themselves and their class.

Sweden is probably in a similar position. Its a good place to launch spies to other countries, to keep track of the doings of your enemy.Also, in WW2, Hitler wanted to invade and conquer Sweden, but was dissuaded by his industrial leaders who pointed out that Sweden kept Germany supplied with steel, and it wasn't a good idea to disturb the situation - they might not be as willing, or as productive under occupation.

I guess enemies always need a neutral ground where they can conduct a little business. Louise

Justin
Mal: Sweden and Switzerland are independent nations with no military alliances that I am aware of. The lands of both nations are barely habitable. More than half of Sweden lies within the Artic circle and the land is dark for a goodly portion of the year. The people live in the south of Sweden and from there supply armaments to Europe, though the country has been free of war since 1813 when Bernadotte took over and opposed Napoleon. Prior to that time they were often engaged in war primarily with their neighbors. Hitler took Norway giving him access to the Atlantic, and Russia took Finland giving Stalin access to the Baltic. Sweden remained neutral during this period. They are now members of the UN and they maintain a standing army of their own.

Switzerland is beautiful but formidable. Hanibal and Napoleon are the only ones I know of who successfully crossed the country through St Bernard's Pass to attack Italy. Hanibal left a lot of elephants in the passes and Napoleon's army suffered greatly in getting over the hump. They also maintain a standing Army. But they have remained neutral through the last two world conflicts. They are not members of the UN.

Both countries must defend themselves in the event of attack. However the inhospitable character of their lands makes them unattractive to would be conquerors.

robert b. iadeluca
"The 'Battle of the Sea of Japan' was a turning point in modern history.

"Not only did it end the expansion of Russia into Chinese territory, it ended also the rule of Europe in the East, and began that resurrection of Asia which promises to be the central political process of our century. All Asia took heart at the sight of the little island empire defeating the most populous power in Europe. China plotted her revolution, and India began to dream of freedom.

"As for Japan, it thought not of extending liberty but of capturing power. It secured from Russia an acknowledgement of Japan's paramount position in Korea. Then, in 1910, it formally annexed that ancient and once highly civilized kingdom. When the Emperor Meiji died, in 1912, after a long and benevolent career as ruler, artist and poet, he could take to the progenitor gods of Japan the message that the nation which they had created, and which at the outset of his reign had been a plaything in the hands of the impious West, was not supreme in the Orient, and was well on its way to becoming the pivot of history."

We Americans like to brag about how far we have progressed in two short centuries. Perhaps, before our heads get too big, we should look East.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
The Japanese seem to be strong and resilient people. There appears to be every reason why they should be overcome by huge countries like China and Russia, and they were not.

Jere, did your house in Fuchu suffer damage from the typhoon which hit Tokyo earlier in the week?

Mal

Justin
Jere has presented the Japanese explanation for their military actions in the first half of the twentieth century. The reasons are worth reexamining. Japan is a country with out material resources. In 1873 the country began to imitate the ways of western nations. Japanese representatives visited the US, England, France, Germany and China. They copied everything in sight and returned home to westernize the nation. They saw in China that the west had exploited the country by force of arms. They saw no reason they could not do the same.

While Europe was engaged in WWl Japan issued an ultimatum to China. Become a Japanese vassal or perish. There were twenty-one demands in all. China must recognize Japan's right to Shantung, Manchuria, and Inner Mongolia. Further, give Japan control of Iron Mining and smelting. Lease harbors in Fukien to Japan and give on harbor rights to no one else without Japan's consent. Allow China's finances to be reorganized by Japanese advisors. Allow Japan to open schools in China to teach Japanese. Allow the Japanese to send missionaries to China. Finally, China must not enter into an agreement with another power for making loans, for railroad contracts, or for harbor contracts with out the consent of Japan. How do you like them apples. China agreed to all but the last item.

robert b. iadeluca
As the change in the GREEN quotes above indicate, the change in Japan was lightning-like.

"The peasant, though poor, was free. He could own a modest parcel of land by paying an annual tax or rental to the state. No lord could hinder him if he chose to leave the fields and seek his fortune in the cities.

"There were great cities now along the coast -- Tokyo (i.e. the 'Eastern Capital'), with its royal and aristocratic palaces, its spacious parks and crowded baths, and a population second only to that of London and New York. Osaka, once a fishing village and a castle, now a dark abyss of hovels, factories and skyscrapers, the center of the industries of Japan. Yokohama and Kobe, from whose gigantic wharves, equipped with every modern mechanism, those industries despatched to a thousand ports the second largest merchant marine in the world."

Robby

Justin
In September 1931, Japan claims the Chinese had blown-up part of their South Manchurian Railway and the war in China begins. The league of nations is given the task of ending the fighting. They don't and they issue a report seeming to blame the Japanese. The Japanse resign from the League.

In July 1937, near Marco Polo Bridge, in Peiping, Japanese soldiers on night maneuvers skirmish with Chinese troops. Japan declares that China assume responsibility for the incident and that they withdraw troops from the Peiping-Tiensin area, and that they irradicate all acts of anti Japanism. China declines. The League declares Japan the Aggressor.

Japan extends her invasion and captures Peiping, Tiensin, Shanghai, Hangchow, Soochow, and Nanking. They are particularly brutal with the civilian population of Nanking. In February 1939, the Japanese seized Canton and Hainon Island between Hong Kong and Singapore. They closed the ports of Swatow, Amoy, Fuchow, Wenchow, and Ningpo to foreign trade.

The Japanese, as a result of this aggessive behavior, get access to coal and iron. They still need oil and rubber and look to southern Asian regions to get acquire the prize. The British fleet at Singapore and the American Fleet at Pearl Harbor stand in their way. The Americans cut off their supply of oil from US sources and ceased sending them scrap metal. The British cut off their supply of rubber from Sumatra and other southern suppliers.Russia and Germany issued trade embargoes. Without these supplies the Japanese war machine would cease to operate. They were negotiating for oil with Cordell Hull at the time of the Pearl Harbor attack.

Justin
The japanese westerization beginning in 1870 and substantially advanced by 1904 when they attacked the Russian navy in the China seas is an example of what can be done when a nation makes up it's mind to imitate the methods of another. There is quite a difference between doing things the first time and following on after someone else has forged the way. The japanese were doing that, imitating, as late as 1970 when they bought US designed computer printers and scanners for OCR and reverse engineered them. Once I found an exact duplicate of a piece of hardware, developed by my company and not yet announced, at a computer conference. They had either bought or stolen the plans and beat us to the street with our own new development.

robert b. iadeluca
I am wondering, Justin -- were the centuries of training in art of a small finer nature the necessary steps in the "art" of imitation? Most of the rest of us in the Western civilization don't have the necessary patience.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
Justin, I've sensed that you appear to bear some resentment toward Japan. At first I thought it was because of World War II; now you mention corporate theft. Anyway, it's getting a little bit hard for me to come in and say positive things about this civilization at this point because I'm afraid I'll offend you.

Mal

Malryn (Mal)

Malryn (Mal)

Malryn (Mal)

Éloïse De Pelteau
Whether it is because of their postage stamp size, or because they have within their borders three distinct nationalities, German, French and Italian and three official languages, they have no choice but remain neutral. They all live in peace and would not want to change their system for the world. It works.

Those three different cultural groups have decided a long time ago to cohabit peacefully and they installed a government guaranteeing peace and it has proven its value over the years. When WW11 erupted, they could do nothing put pray that they would not become the battleground for opposite sides and remained neutral by all possible methods. From the sky, their mountainous terrain was not very much of a challenge.

The secrecy of their banking system allows untold wealth to be secretly hidden at the full knowledge of everybody in the world. Switzerland is a bank, safe in the fortress of the Alps. The size and competence of their army is laughable and yet they are not afraid of being invaded. They are keepers of the world's gold (economy) and only they know where the cache is deep inside the high mountains.

Eloïse

Malryn (Mal)
When I was in Zurich I met some of the coldest, most unfriendly and unhelpful people I've ever encountered in my life. Having been raised on Heidi, I was very disappointed.

The Hague in the Netherlands wasn't much better. I was alone most of the time in those two countries, and it was hard never to see a smiling face. Paris was the warmest, most welcoming place I went to on that five country trip.

Mal

Bubble
Entirely my impression of Zurich...

Éloïse De Pelteau
Yes, Mal, promoting the tourist industry is not uppermost in the minds of the Swiss. They have to keep visitors (and population) to a minimum and are not about to welcome tourists with open arms. In the Swiss Romande area of Lausanne, where my son lives, the people I meet are friendly and warm but Europe, in general is not like America in that respect.

Malryn (Mal)
I was a "visitor" in Switzerland and the Netherlands and every other country to which I went. My former husband was in Europe working with European scientists and business colleagues, and I accompanied him. We were not tourists.

Frankly, I don't think a message of unfriendliness is a good one to take back home from another country regardless where you live.

Mal

Elizabeth N
Yes, Jere, I live and breathe Shogun, as well as Jane Austin, Mark Twain, Robert Louis Stevenson, Nabokov. I have not lived in the present world, I'm afraid, despite the eight children

Justin
Mal; Never hesitate to comment freely without fear of offense.I prefer to see several sides of an issue to help me thoroughly understand a subject. You are probably right. I may harbor some resentment toward the Japanese. Although I like to think I can look at their society in an unbiased way, I have probably, tho not consciously, searched for reasons to explain their aggressive behavior. I have always admired the Japanese common soldier for uncommon bravery in the face of immediate danger. And I don't really resent their inclination to imitate, especially, if they make improvements on the original, but at the same time, I expect them to play fair.

Americans don't always play fair either. In 1921, an emergency immigration act had been passed by the US Senate with restrictive covenants, especially for the Japanese. They were excluded from immigration quotas. The Japanese resented the measure and their newspapers spoke of war. The measure became law in 1924. The "Yellow Peril" had been stopped. But it left a smouldering resentment in Japan, I am sure. It was not the open door promised by Perry in the mid-nineteenth century. It was more like Teddy Roosevelt's Great White Fleet tour with a big stick. Puccini gave us Butterfly to remember that tour.

robert b. iadeluca
As the interest of the majority has moved from Japan to Europe, I am moving on to the final section of Japan, prior to Durant's Envoi.

"The population of Japan had mounted from 3,000,000 in the days of Shotoku Taishi to some 17,000,000 under Hideyoshi, some 30,000,000 under Yoshimune, and over 55,000,000 at the end of Meiji's reign (1912). It had doubled in a century, and the mountain-ribbed islands, so sparsely arable, contained with difficulty their multiplying millions.

An insular population half as great as that of the united States had to support itself on an area one-twentieth as large. It could maintain itself only by manufactures, and yet Japan was tragically poor in the fuels and minerals indispensable to industry. Hydro-electric power lurked in the streams that flowed from the mountains to the sea, but the full development of this resource would add only one-third to the power already used, and could not be relied upon for the expanding needs of the future.

"The low standard of living to which the nature of the strong and costliness of materials and power had condemned the masses of Japan made consumption lag more and more behind production."

Robby

Justin
Because consumptiom lagged well behind production, Japan required export markets to absorb it's excess. China would been a wonderful market for Japan's production goods but they didn't know enough about marketing to pull it off. They thought they could buy their way in with a gun.

The limited arable land in Japan coupled with a burgeoning population is another reason for Japanese expansion in to neighboring areas of the Greater co prosperity zone.

In the prewar period Japanese manufactured goods were cheap and trivial and not worthy of sophisticated western markets. It was not until the postwar period that they became convinced of the benefits of quality assurance in production. When that happened their products became worthwhile. Americans were slow to learn the same lesson and as a result we have been faced with some tough Asiatic competition.

Jere: the arable land problem is still with them. I don't know what they have done to curb population expansion. They have acquired several sources for raw materials. They have learned something about opening markets with quality products. Why are they still behind the eight ball?

Bubble
Yoshikawa, Mako. One Hundred and One Ways.
Bantam. 1999. 278 pages.$ 21.95
ISBN: 0-553-11099-3.
ASIAN LOVE... Can a geisha actually think of one hundred and one ways to make love? Kiki Takehashi, the American-born granddaughter of a geisha and heroine of Mako Yoshikawa's engrossing first novel, One Hundred and One Ways, resents American men's erotic fascination with Asian women. As she attempts to deal with the recent death of her boyfriend, ponders her problematic relations with the men in her life, and begins to repair her relationship with her mother, she eagerly awaits her grandmother's visit to America and mentally prepares a series of questions to ask the "expert" on men, relationships, and life. In this story of multigenerational connectedness reminiscent of Amy Tan's The Joy Luck Club, Kiki discovers that there are probably as many ways of loving as there are of making love.

robert b. iadeluca
Ten months have passed since together we accompanied Durant in this marvelous voyage through Sumeria, Ancient Egypt, Babylonia, Assyria, Judea, Persia, India, China, and Japan. We have caught on to the idea of what Durant meant when he used the term "heritage." No longer will we see our own culture and habits in such a casual way. Whether it be the language we use, the clothes we wear, or the various disciplines we study, we will no longer be able to take part in them without realizing that thousands and thousands of Oriental years went into creating them for us.

Now the time has come for Durant to say "goodbye" to those of us who are leaving. He says it in the volume's final section which he entitles

Envoi

"We have passed in unwilling haste through four thousand years of history and over the richest civilizations of the largest continent. It is impossible that we have understood these civilizations, or done them justice. How can one mind, in one lifetime, comprehend or appraise the heritage of a race? The institutions, customs, arts and morals of a people represent the natural selection of its countless trial and error experiments, the accumulated and unformulable wisdom of all its generations. Neither the intelligence of a philosopher nor the intellect of a sophomore can suffice to compass them understandingly, much less to judge them with justice.

"Europe and America are the spoiled child and grandchild of Asia, and have never quite realized the wealth of their pre-classical inheritance. But if, now, we sum up those arts and ways which the West has derived from the East, or which, to our current and limited knowledge, appear first in the Orient, we shall find ourselves drawing up unconsciously an outline of civilization.

"The first element of civilization is labor -- tillage, industry, transport and trade. In Egypt and Asia we meet with the oldest known cultivation of the soil, the oldest irrigation systems, and the first production of those encouraging beverages without which, apparently, modern civilization could hardly exist -- beer and wine and tea.

"Handicrafts and engineering were as highly developed in Egypt before Moses as in Europe before Voltaire. Building with bricks has a history at least as old as Sargon I. The potter's wheel and the wagon wheel appear first in Elam. Linen and glass in Egypt; silk and gunpowder in China. The horse rides out of Central Asia into Mesopotamia, Egypt and Europe. Phoenician vessels circumnavigate Africa before the age of Pericles. The compass comes from China and produces a commercial revolution in Europe. Sumeria shows us the first business contracts, the first credit system, the first use of gold and silver as standards of value. China first accomplishes the miracle of having paper accepted in place of silver or gold."

Durant ends this Volume by listing what he calls the Eight Elements of Civilization. He has just described the first one -- Labor -- tillage, industry, transport and trade. As we prepare to end this volume, are there any comments here regarding the Orient's effect on Labor in today's world as you see it?

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
"The institutions, customs, arts and morals of a people represent the natural selection of its countless trial and error experiments, the accumulated and unformulable wisdom of all its generations."

I have learned so much since we started S of C. I want to thank you Robby and everyone for sharing your knowledge. In participating I came to better understand the world I live in and can better apply what I learned to people around me including those who don't have the same background. All in all, I came to realize that we all have an Oriental origin that we can be proud of.

Eloïse

Bubble
This is such a vast question, Robby and way over my head. We have realized now that every civilization has an influence on the next or on others. It is all interdependant. I do not think we could be the same without the past history. By studying it here we are maybe getting a clearer picture of the past's importance and how we are all linked, even East and West. It started all in the South and in the East, this seems to be clear.



The next slice might be as impressive, maybe more, as a way to learn about ourselves. Bubble

Malryn (Mal)
Durant says so much more about Japan before he gives us the final chapter of this book; things which could help us understand why Japan has been as aggressive as it has in so many areas, something Justin has touched on. One intriguing statement Durant made in this section is, "In Japan as elsewhere the machine is the enemy of the priest." This really makes me think.

Where would we be without the engineering, scientific and mathematics discoveries of the Ancient Oriental civilizations? Where would we be if our ancient predecessors had not developed the tools which they created? This, too, is interesting to think about.

There's so much more. Language, writing, government, business, philosophies, religions are just a few.

Our Oriental Heritage has opened my eyes and shaken my views. I've had to re-examine much of what I was taught and a good deal of what I believed. My understanding of literature, the time I live in, and the heritage of which I am a part, has changed because of this book, this discussion and the points-of-view displayed here in this forum.

I'm sorry it's ending and can only look forward to learning more from Life of Greece.

Mal

moxiect
As I love the study of different cultures this discussion of our ancient heritage has peaked my curiosity a great deal. I have thoroughly enjoyed reading about ancient Japan and their manners and mores. Looking forward to the next chapters.

Mary W
Since last November this year has been the most physically trying of my life. The most rewarding experience of this year has been this group-reading all of the posts with great admiration for the stimulating opinions and reactions of its' contributors. I would frequently find myself silently nodding my head in agreement and thinking "You are absolutely right! I agree" or shaking my head and thinking You're nuts! Scrambled thinking!" But always I enjoyed all of you and your comments. I learned so much! Robby, whom I consider the consummate discussion leader, managed skillfully to all on track while judiciously permiting an occasional side trip to a special and informative area.

That this group will continue on to Greece pleases me enormously. There is no assurance that next year will be a measurably better one for me. But if it is I shall be a participant rather than a spectator.

Thanks, guys, for a memorable experience.

robert b. iadeluca
Durant continues:--

"The second element of civilization is government. -- the organization and protection of life and society through the clan and the family, law and the state. The village community appears in India, and the city-state in Sumeria and Assyria.

"Egypt takes a census, levies an income tax, and maintains internal peace through many centuries with a model minimum of force. Ur-Engur and Hammurabi formulate great codes of law, and Darius organizes, with imperial army and post, one of the best administered empires in the annals of government."

Please look at the governments of today -- not only in America but across the Western civilizations. Now think back to the governments to which Durant refers. Your thoughts, please?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
Well, they're not so much different, are they? There were dictatorships, monarchies and democracies in ancient times. Has anything changed, and is it all dependent on the power of a single individual or the Right of Kings? Or do the people really have a say? (I ask myself that all the time.)

Mal

OrchidLady
Well, if you look at the long run, its hard to say just what causes one particular form of government to succeed. When you have a very large area, occupied by many hundreds of thousands of people, or millions, actually, I honestly don't think you can maintain a representative form of government - preferably a republic.

Even Rome which wasn't too large at the time couldn't do it. Sooner or later, one group - more than one man, I think - assumes control. What makes the difference in the lives of ordinary citizens is, what humane values direct the lives of those in power. There will always be some with the strength and the daring and the ability, to seize more than their share. They will get the biggest part, and the masses get what's left over. The condition of the masses, the kind of lives they will have to lead, will depend on the values of those who have the most. Louise

Justin
I hesitate to leave our study of Japan. I thought perhaps, I might find some understanding of Japanese aggressiveness- some reason for their attack on Pearl Harbor and their animosity toward China. Analysts who have dealt with the issue in the past have,in my judgement, not clearly understood the Japanese psyche.

On the one hand they imitated China's living practices. On the other hand, they saw what the Europeans and Americans did to China and thought they could do the same.

In a short fifty year period they became industrialized without the raw materials to sustain manufacturing. Their population exceeded their arable land mass. It looks like they were in a box which they could not get out of. The steps they took to get out were aggressive steps. Britain and America stood in their way. Britain was busy protecting itself at home. The Japanese must have thought at this time that if America could be neutralized, they would have free access to the raw materials to the south. Britain said no on rubber and the US said no on oil-Two essential ingredients in industrial production.

The Japanese must have thought they were then trapped in a box with little chance of survival. So they planned the attack. Japanese military people became ascendant and implemented the attack. That is a possible scenario. It must be remembered, of course, that the British and American embargoes were intended to extricate Japan from China where they had brutalized the people.

Justin
My goodness, Louise, such pessimism. Have you no confidence in this Republic?

Justin
"Envoi". It is the thing sent. Durant has transmitted to us a view of the orient and some understanding of our inheritance. It is greater than I thought when we first started and it is less well recognized than I thought. Everyone knows that firecrackers came from China but who knows that paper and the compass (the south pointer), and zero came to us from the east. These tools are the magic of our western civilization. They are the heart and soul of every thing we do. Without them we would be a primitive society today. We imitated these things and enhanced their function and thus advanced our civilization.

robert b. iadeluca
"The third element of civilization is morality -- customs and manners, conscience and charity. A law built into the spirit, and generating at last that sense of right and wrong -- that order and discipline of desire, without which a society disintegrates into individuals, and falls forfeit to some coherent state.

"Courtesy came out of the ancient courts of Egypt, Mesopotamia and Persia. Even today the Far East might teach manners and dignity to the brusque and impatient West.

"Monogamy appeared in Egypt, and began a long struggle to prove itself and survive in competition with the inequitable but eugenic polygamy of Asia.

"Out of Egypt came the first cry for social justice.

"Out of Judea the first plea for human brotherhood, the first formulation of the moral consciouness of mankind."

And where do we stand today? How is our morality? Are our laws working? Have we learned anything from the experiences of the Ancients?

Robby

Bubble
In my eyes, morality is the key to being civilized, It appears to still be a struggle at time. Given a danger, real or imagined, nations tend to revert and forget about freedom and equality for all.

Malryn (Mal)
How can people learn from the experience of the Ancients if they don't know anything about them? I was probably better informed than some, yet when I began reading Our Oriental Heritage and discussing it here, I realized my ignorance was immense. Like so many others, I had learned from stereotypes about other civilizations, and much of what I was taught was not the truth.

Despite the way it appears to some, I think sexual morality has not changed much since I was a very young woman. I could write a long list of so-called sexually immoral things that went on where I lived in the 30's and 40's, "the innocent years", that might surprise some of you. Today's sexual immorality is so "in your face" because of fast communication and news services that make their money through sensationalism that it seems sometimes as if we are in terrible moral shape, but I don't really see great differences between now and more than fifty years ago.

Then people had blinders on. Such things as single people living together and cohabiting were not talked about except behind the hand and closed doors. Babies born without the sanction of marriage between the parents were considered a disgrace. Often we never knew such things happened because the young woman was sent away somewhere for the duration of her pregnancy, or kept inside at home, and people were told she was "feeling poorly." Adultery and divorce were scandalous, but they happened all the time at all levels of society. So what is the difference, really, between now and then?

I think the laws of this country work well, though I don't agree with some of them. Our prisons are full of people sent there for possession of small amounts of marijuana, for example, yet people are on the road with alcohol in their blood which exceeds the limit stated by law and seldom are caught. For years and years people in corporations and businesses have broken laws and have not been caught or questioned until recently. The same is true of some religious leaders who preach one thing and practice another.

I believe killing people is the height of obscenity and immorality, yet in the name of patriotism and war, thousands and thousands are killed. Most assuredly, we have not learned many lessons on that score from the Ancients who preceded us.

Mal

OrchidLady
JUSTIN, I have no faith in human nature. I look to Rome for clues. The masses prefered "bread and circuses" then - and they still do, although the circuses are put on by the varies forms of media. The people will stuff themselves with "bread" and laugh at inane behavior, and the strong will take over. Louise

MaryPage
I would go further than MAL and say that sexual behavior and misbehavior has not changed one iota in thousands upon thousands of years. It is only a matter of change in taboos; what is and is not allowed to be seen and said in any given culture at any given time.

When a community swings to the "puritan" attitudes, it is a society tightly bound up in denial of what we really are. When a tribe goes 180° and becomes obsessed with everything sexual, it is a society drowning in denial of what we have the potential to become.

Both scenarios cause a deep sadness to grow within me.

robert b. iadeluca
"The fourth element of civilization is religion -- the use of man's supernatural beliefs for the consolation of suffering, the elevation of character, and the strengthening of social instincts and order.

"From Sumeria, Babylonia and Judea the most cherished myths and traditions of Europe were derived. In the soil of the Orient grew the stories of the Creation and the Flood, the Fall and Redemption of man. Out of many mother goddesses came at last 'the fairest flower of all poesy,' as Heine called Mary, the Mother of God.

"Out of Palestine came monotheism, and the fairest songs of love and praise in literature, and the loneliest, lowliest, and most impressive figure in history."

Has your following of Durant's comments caused you to believe that religion served to "console suffering, elevate character, and strengthen social instincts and order" both in the Ancient Civilizations and in ours?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
I agree that religion has used " man's supernatural beliefs for the consolation of suffering, the elevation of character, and the strengthening of social instincts and order", but question whether it has always "served" in this way.

Religion has soothed the fears of human beings for centuries, especially fear of an unknown like death. Certain laws like the Ten Commandments have been used for thousands of years as basis for behavior.

I have received the impression from my own observations and those of Durant that religion can also have a negative effect upon a civilization. When one religion's laws are so strict and unbending that they leave no room for the acceptance of other beliefs there can be strife. There can be tensions even among one group because of various differences, as represented by Christianity, for example.

I don't believe that religions start wars, except perhaps for the Crusades, and I don't have enough knowledge to talk about that. I do, however, believe that religions are used as justification and an excuse for wars.

Mal

Justin
Religion is an ambivalence. On the one hand it causes suffering and on the other it consoles suffering. It creates suffering by inventing sin, and punishment and it consoles through promotion of prayer.

Religion lowers character through penance, forgivness and absolution. The wrong in life is absolved. Someone else has paid the price for the sins one commits and religion, in this sense, discourages responsibility.

Does religion strengthen social instinct and order? The role model religion offers to society is the role of the priesthood- a more grasping, avaricious, superstition-promoting-personality is no where more prevalent.They prey on the innocent and unwary.

Religion serves as the tool of the politically ambitious. The dictator uses religion to keep the masses surpressed. Democratically elected rulers tend to pay lip service to keep the status quo. Religion tends to be very good for the rich and powerful. It tends to be very bad for the poor and weak. However, only the opposite is evident on the surface. The rich and powerful don't practice religion. They recognize the shape of the beast. It is the poor and the weak who fail to see the evils in religion and blithly support it.

These characteristics were as common in the ancient civilizations as they are today. Lenin called it what it is, the opiate of the people.

Éloïse De Pelteau
"Religion is the use of man's supernatural beliefs for the consolation of suffering, the elevation of character, and the strengthening of social instincts and order."

The Larousse dictionary says: “Religion is an ensemble of beliefs and dogmas defining the rapport of man with the sacred.” We all know that people who follow a certain religion by the precepts of the above that it cannot always console our suffering, it does not always elevate character and certainly is not always responsible for the strengthening of social instincts and order, so what does he mean by that?

Religion as described by Durant eliminates the concept of God and it is merely man’s invention. Many people believe in God in spite of religion. Some instinctively believe and have no religion. The dogmas instituted by man sometimes help them to stay focused on believing but take away their church and priests, and they still believe in God.

When I see crowds gathering at Graceland, Elvis Presley’s shrine, to commemorate his death, it is obvious to me that people need to worship and when they are disappointed in one god, they worship another. Multitudes gather at the gravesite of a movie star to mourn their idol and go on a pilgrimage each year to cry over their loss. The same goes for famous hockey, football, and baseball stars.

Religion or worship needs to be better defined. It is different than believing in a super power, something greater than man. God is a source of enlightenment for those who believe, it is hard to define, intangible and wonderful, something that has no substitute or equivalent, something sublime that science cannot equate, it is spiritual, has no logic and needs no explanation.

Eloïse

Bubble
From what I have seen around me especially in the ultra orthodox, religion gives a possibility to put the responsabilities and choices in life on other shoulders. You have a problem? go and consult the rabbi and he will tell you what to do, be it a marital discordance, a business decision or what to do with a difficult or deliquent son. Of course it is also the first stop for fertility problems! This is the side of what the masses call religion that revolts me.



Have you read the story of the 40y old siamese twin sisters (in USA)? They are linked from the topside of the head one facing sideway from the other. They could have been separated but refuse because they must respect the will of God. He had his reason for making them so... They can never look at each other except with the help of a mirror. For me it is a misdirected faith.



Solution, salvation, whatever you call it is foremost and above all inside us. (IMHO) Credulity has been used to influence people from the depths of time until today. Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
"The fifth element in civilization is science -- clear seeing, exact recording, impartial testing, and the slow accumulation of a knowledge objective enough to generate prediction and control.

"Egypt develops arithmetic and geometry, and establishes the calendar. Egyptian priests and physicians practice medicine, explore diseases enematically, perform a hundred varieties of surgical operation, and anticipate something of the Hippocratic oath.

"Babylonia studies the stars, charts the zodiac, and gives us our division of the month into four weeks, of the clock into twelve hours, of the hour into sixty minutes, of the minute into sixty seconds.

"India transmits through the Arabs her simple numerals and magical decimals, and teaches Europe the subtleties of hypnotism and the technique of vaccination."

Let us think of the importance we of the Western civilization place on science and then let us pause to think of its origins. Your comments, please?

Robby

MaryPage
We have Science to thank for all of the comforts of civilization we count on: electricity, motors, engines, maps, weather reporting, time keeping, water transporting, medicines to prevent disease and prolong and save life, and so on and on. I become brain numb contemplating those who condemn Science when they do not agree with its findings, yet depend upon it absolutely in their daily lives.

We have explored the far reaches of our past here, and discovered we owe a very great deal to cultures which seem quite strange to our present-day sensibilities.

Bubble
Robby, I do not think science and collecting knowledge is a western world preoccupation. It seems to be more of a human trait. I am sure the prehistorical man had observed the skies and could tell when he should enter his cave because it was going to rain, it was the start of a process which is continuying to this day and will go on and on as there is always something new to learn or discover.

Malryn (Mal)
Having been close to science for many years through my former husband, and having known many of the people who dedicate themselves to research and development of various phases of science, I have great respect for science and what it does.

I have the greatest respect for my former husband who, with the help of the people who work in the laboratories of his business, has developed a method for performing hydro-surgery.

I have a friend whose business makes the kind of sophisticated medical instruments which are used for various kinds of testing and other necessary things. He and his employees are constantly searching for ways to keep us healthy and well and make our lives better.

Bubble is right. Science is not exclusive to the West. I've met scientists from all over the world.

The word, "science", covers a vast amount of territory from thermal dynamics in physics to biology and chemistry in the research for medical cures for illness, to psychology which keeps our brains working properly, to military science, to botany, astronomy and mathematics and much more. To lump all of these together as "science" and criticize it and fear it as a single whole is a tremendous mistake, in my opinion. The more we understand about various scientific disciplines and what they do for the human race and civilization, the more we understand our world and ourselves.

Mal

MaryPage

OrchidLady
ELOISE,your second paragraph pretty much descrdibes my belief. I believe despite religion. My opinion is -for what it is worth, -from time to time wise men appear, who are spiritual men, that is, people who think about God, try to reach him, try to bring him into their souls, try to live their lives as the think he would want

They write down the insight they have. The wisest don't claim that their views are absolutely right, or that they are the only paths to God. The wise person reads/listens to what they say, and weighs it. If it seems reasonable, sensible, guidance that helps one to contact God and bring him into our lives, he accepts. But everything changes as it goes from person. I think you have to differentiate organized religious organizations, structured, hierartical, powerful, etc. from the spiritual life we all should try to have. Organized religions are the result of centuries of accretion, gathered in the hands of men who love power and exercise it in the name of God.

One should study such men, and their teachings. Some of what they say is often right, a lot is just an armor built around the desire to control people's lives -which they don't recognize as they hide it from themselves.

The spiritual person studies these religions, tries to separate the gold from the base. He respects the good these religions can do -sometimes. Help for the destitute, care of the sick, etc. jobs most people don't want. But in no way should he take what they preach without serious review, and he should always remember it is his duty to "reach out" to God, in prayer and conversation, always asking God to enter his soul and guide him in what is the right thing to do. The episode of the Siamese twins is incredibly stupid. If that were followed to its extreme, we would all be sitting in the dark after the sun set, as God had ordained the darkness. The episode of the muslim girls who died in a Medina school a few years ago because they could not come out of the burning school as they had no male relatives to be with them, and the firemen couldn't go in, as the girls were not wearing the right dress, is an insult to God.

Them's my thoughts. More on science later. Briefly, I believe scientific discoveries are inspired by God and are a gift from him. There is no reason to fear it, for the problems come from what man does with this knowledge. Louise

Malryn (Mal)

With all due respect I'll say that the scientists I have known and know now, who often work years to go from hypothesis to theory to proof in his or her experimentation, would not agree that the result of their hard work is a gift from any god. I also have never met anyone who fit the category of "Mad Scientist" or a scientist who would deliberately turn the result of his effort to evil. Einstein is a case in point, and he's the one who had the brilliance to understand what every aspect of E = mc2 means.

Mal

OrchidLady
<M>MAL I really wasn't thinking of the scientists as currupting the re usage of their discoveries. It is greedy men, who see a way to turn a scientific breakthrough into a way to make money. Many scientific discoveries are a blessing, with a possible curse. Take the newly engineered grain seeds, that have built in safeguards against deseases of the plants. A wonderful thing. But if all natural seeds, wheat, etc. are allowed to die, and only hybrid seeds are grown, we have no source to go back to if a new enemy comes along and destroys the hybrid seeds. But greedy men are already pushing the new seeds, telling farmers "just use these seeds and you won't have to use disease control devices."

This can be repeated many times over. God gives the gifts to man, and man takes them and distortes them to his own advantage. Of course, if one doesn't believe in God or his gifts, then the gifts come from the brain of man only - and the abuse of these gifts is the result of immaturity? emotional unstability? etc. on the part of some men. Louise

Justin
Science is simply the study of the world we live in. It is achieved in a systematic way, recorded and tested. The work is done by man not by any god and breakthoughs are the result of extensive labor. It is insulting to mankind to attribute man's gains to some supernatural being invented by the superstitious and self-serving among us.

robert b. iadeluca
"The sixth element of civilization is philosophy -- the attempt of man to capture something of that total perspective which in his modest intervals he knows that only Infinity can possess. The brave and hopeless inquiry into the first causes of things, and their final significance. The consideration of truth and beauty,of virtue and justice, of ideal men and states.

"All this appears in the Orient a little sooner than in Europe. The Egyptians and the Babylonians ponder human nature and destiny, and the Jews write immortal comments on life and death -- while Europe tarries in barbarism.

"The Hindus play with logic and epistemology at least as early as Parmenides and Zeno of Elea. The Upanishads delve into metaphysics, and Buddha propounds a very modern psychology some centuries before Socrates is born.

"And if India drowns philosophy in religion, and fails to emancipate reason from hope, China resolutely secularizes her thought, and produces, again before Socrates, a thinker whose sober wisdom needs hardly any change to be a guide to our contemporary life, and an inspiration to those who would honorably govern states."

Where are the thinkers of our day? Who today ponders truth, beauty, virtue and justice? Who in our time inspires our leaders?

Robby

HubertPaul
Who in our time inspires our leaders?

Robby

The oil companies :>)

Bert

Justin
The doers are people like Cheney, Kissenger, etc. They are in the foreground. The thinkers are in the background. People like Milton Friedman, Ludwig Von Mises, W. Edwards Deming are our thinkers. They are in the universities and they are rarely news worthy unless they win a Nobel. In earlier times we were blessed with thinkers such as Thomas Paine, Locke, James Madison, Thomas Jefferson. There are thinkers in the scientific community as well as the social community. In mathematics I nominate people like Leibnitz, couchy, Boole, Descarte, Weierstrass, Kronecker. They are great thinkers for today who worked outside the pale and they are moderns. They are the Confucians of the west.

robert b. iadeluca
"The seventh element of civilization is letters -- the transmission of language -- the education of youth -- the development of writing -- the creation of poetry and drama -- the stimulus of romance -- and the written remembrance of things past. The oldest schools known to us are those of Egypt and Mesopotamia. Even the oldest schools of government are Egyptian.

"Out of Asia, apparently, came writing. Out of Egypt the alphabet, paper and ink.

"Out of China, print.

"The Babylonians seem to have compiled the oldest grammars and dictionaries, and to have collectd the first libraries.

"It may well be that the universities of India preceded Plato's Academy.

"The Assyrians polished chronicles into history; the Egyptians puffed up history into the epic.

"The Far East gave to the modern world those delicate forms of poetry that rest all their excellence on subtle insights phrased in a moment's imagery.

"Nabonidus and Ashurbanipal, whose relics are exhumed by archeologists, were archeologists, and some of the fables that amuse our children go back to ancient India."

Your thoughts, please?

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
"Who in our time inspires our leaders?" Billy Graham

Bubble
Put like that, it seems that all was discovered, developped, invented in the ancient East and we are only working at improving what we received and even that is not significant enough. We only conquered space a little. I suppose those ancients did not imagine that would be possible one day?

Malryn (Mal)
My personal philosophy comes primarily from one which had its roots in ancient Buddhism and Confucianism. This comes as something of a surprise to me because I wasn't aware of this until I began reading Our Oriental Heritage.

Speaking only of the United States, it is my opinion that our leaders have been influenced by leaders who came before them in our history. We've had a few really great presidents. What they said and did is still important today.

I am humbled by the achievements of our ancient Oriental ancestors. So much of what we are and do today is based on ancient thought and discovery. Here, all these years I've thought I was a product of New England and England. Now I know my heritage contains much more.

Mal

moxiect
History I was taught to mean the Heritage of Mankind. Ethnicly I was taught that the Romans copied the Greek philosphy from which the western civilization grew. I often had wondered were the Grecian philosphy came from and now I have acquired some knowledged of the ancient civilizations. Apparantly, the mix of cultures today will undoubtly evolve from the best of both of them to hopefully a more peacefull future.

HubertPaul
Eloise, allow me to add to your post # 720 :"...Billy Graham" Falwell and Roberts.

Malryn (Mal)
A response to Eloise's post and Hubert's: If that's how it looks in Canada, it's shameful.
I must add that, whether it's obvious to you or not, there are millions of people in my
country who do not answer the evangelist priests' call.

Mal

dapphne
I can think of five modern day "thinkers", although not all of them are still alive...

  • Stephan Hawkins
  • Carl Sagan
  • Dalai Lama
  • Mahatma Gandhi
  • Joseph Campbell
  • HubertPaul
    Mal, Roby's question was not :what inspires our people. It was: what inspires our leaders.

    dapphne
    One would have to have intimate knowledge of "our leaders" to be able to know what/who "inspires" them...

    We can only know what/who inspires ourselves.....

    Justin
    I agree with Eloise and Hubert. We are just a bunch of "Texas Okies" down here. Our presidents, beginning with Jimmie Carter, have sought advice and counsel from the supernaturals of television. Bill Clinton was the only independent thinker in that crowd and recall how they punished him. Now we are about to have a religious war-the Fundementalist Christians vrs the Fundementalist Islamists, with Falwell, Grahamm, Robertson, and Dobson cheering from the sidelines. We can't possibly be this ignorant. Can we? Did we inherit this behavior too from the Orient?

    Malryn (Mal)
    Yeah, well, Justin, but you'd better make book on the fact that a bunch of us ignoramuses are going to whatever it takes to kick those fundamentalist-following leaders out. It's happened before, and you can be darned sure it will happen again. I feel a little rebellion brewing, don't you?

    The pendulum swings.

    Mal

    robert b. iadeluca
    Pretty hard not to get political, isn't it, when we are talking about leaders. But read again Durant's remarks:--

    "The sixth element of civilization is philosophy -- the attempt of man to capture something of that total perspective which in his modest intervals he knows that only Infinity can possess. The brave and hopeless inquiry into the first causes of things, and their final significance. The consideration of truth and beauty,of virtue and justice, of ideal men and states."

    While my question did ask "who was inspiring our leaders," my question was aimed at locating the non-leaders -- the philosophers, the academics, the "thinkers," the visionaries -- those who dream and then inspire others to make the dreams come true. Who do we have in that category these days?

    Robby

    MaryPage
    If I, too, ignore the question of who are those who inspire our leaders, which I take to be the leaders of the U.S. of A. and I think was well answered, and answer the question of who inspires those of us who hope we have open, inquiring and thoughtful minds, I would have to applaud Dapph's list and Mal's comments.

    I am very inspired by Joseph Campbell, deceased, and John Shelby Spong, very much alive. Also Nawal El Saadawi, who is an Arab and a woman.

    Justin
    Mal; Lets hope so.

    HubertPaul
    dapphne, what a switch:>)

    If a leader makes a statement such as: if you are not a Christian, you should not be an American citizen, or a leader attacks in public the whole Islamic religion in a country where citizens belong to that religion ???????-intimate knowledge?

    robert b. iadeluca
    Any reactions to the Seventh Element of Civilization?

    Robby

    OrchidLady
    My reaction, Robby, is that I'll be glad when you start another book. See you then.

    DAPPHNE, your post 728 made good sense. I don't know what inspires our leaders; none of them have ever chosen to take me into their confidence. Louise

    Malryn (Mal)
    Without the seventh element of civilization, we wouldn't be posting messages on this board, and I'd be out of business as a writer and publisher.

    Louise, it's too bad you were unable to be in this discussion from the beginning. This has been one of the most enriching learning experiences I've ever had in my life. Sharing our various different opinions has made me think and examine my own. My view of history and life around me now has vastly changed from the time I first posted here ten months ago.

    Thank you, Robby, for what you do for all of us.

    Mal

    Justin
    I will use the seventh element to say thanks to Robby for a pleasant learning experience.

    Bubble
    Oh yes, we learned so much these last months. I for one need more time to digest it all and ponder. I am changing my outlook too and I hope it will have a lasting effect: we tend to go back to our old ruts, don't we?



    I see this element as the most important of all.
    About doers (leaders) and inspirers, which is the more important? which is the hardest?
    I suppose it requires very different personalities.
    I would prefer to inspire than to lead! Bubble.

    robert b. iadeluca
    "The eighth and final element of civilization is art -- the embellishment of life with pleasant color, rhythm and form.

    "In its simplest aspect -- the adornment of the body -- we find elegant clothing, exquisite jewelry and scandalous cosmetics in the early age of Egyptian, Sumerian and Indian civilization. Fine furniture, graceful pottery, and excellent carving in ivory and wood fill the Egyptian tombs.

    "Surely the Greeks must have learned something of their skill in sculpture and architecture, in painting and bas-relief, not only from Asia and Crete, but from the masterpieces that in their day still gleamed in the mirror of the Nile.

    "From Egypt and Mesopotamia Greece took the models for her Doric and Ionic columns. From those same lands came to us not merely the column but the arch, the vault, the clerestory and the dome. The ziggurats of the ancient Near East have had some share in moulding the architecture of America today.

    "The Chinese painting and Japanese prints changed the tone and current of nineteenth century European art. The Chinese porcelain raised a new perfection for Europe to emulate.

    "The sombre splendor of the Gregorian chant goes back age by age to the plaintive songs of exiled Jews gathering timidly in scattered synagogues."

    Much to consider here. Perhaps as we examine all eight elements, Voltaire's question in the Heading may be apropos. Your comments, please?

    Robby

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    While the Pyramids were being built in Egypt, the Orient had already advanced much further in their development in every one of the eight stages of civilization mentioned and that indicates to me that being a younger civilization, we have not reached oriental wisdom yet in the West.

    Oriental philosophy seems idealistic, but it could not very well apply today. It did not address modern problems such as the insidious influence the West has on every culture in the world, scientific achievements, space exploration that changed our view of the universe. It did not deal with the far-reaching influence that one language such as English would have on Eastern cultures.

    But perhaps it deals with wisdom and in the long run, their oriental philosophy, and patience, will win and the West, being too forceful in their desire to dominate, failing to acquire such wisdom, will be caught by surprise like it was on the ninth of September 2001.

    Please forgive my direct opinions, I certainly do not wish to make anyone angry by expressing myself openly.

    Malryn (Mal)
    It seems to me that we have seen each civilization copy and imitate other ones. What is happening today with imitation of the West doesn't surprise me much at all.

    About the eighth element of civilization, art is a form of expression. Human beings have had the need to express themselves practically since time began. From early cave paintings to abstract expressionism to whatever contemporary art is called today, people have taken pigment and finger or stick or brush, mallet and chisel, building blocks of wood, stone or steel and have striven to say what they want to say in an artistic manner.

    The same is true of music. People have been singing since primitive humans first began to hum. It was natural that they wanted to put their music down in stone, parchment or some other manner so it wouldn't be forgotten.

    Wearable art and body decoration have also been around for a vastly long time.

    Durant has tried to answer Voltaire's question. My tentative comment would be that since barbarism and civilization seem often to walk hand in hand, there can not at this time be an answer.

    Mal

    Justin
    Eloise: Your chance of making anyone angry by expressing yourself openly is less than one in a billion. Perhaps the opposite is more the case. If you don't express yourself openly, we will be angry. You refer to 9/11 as September Nine. That's understandable since French Canadians refer to dates in the European manner. In the US we write the month first and the day next. In your part of the world you write the day first and the month next. One gets November ninth for 9/11 using that method. Oh Well!

    Justin
    Durant attempts to answer Voltaire by identifying, defining, and describing the steps by which man advanced from barbarism to civilization. We now know the elements and we have seen the halting steps taken by man in his quest for civilization. We have come eight to ten thousand years since these elements were barely discernable. Have we come all the way to complete civilization? No. Perhaps, we may never reach that point. Civilization is a goal. It is something to strive for. It is not something that is attainable in toto.

    If Voltaire had read the first book of Durant, would he have asked the question?

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    Justin - My two languages often conflict. ‘Nine eleven’ will become a cliché and then nobody will forget how to say it. As for anger, I would rather say that I get people angry more often than once in a billion times, but rather once in a hundred. Just ask my children (and others).

    Everything in life must have balance but we have seen mostly the beastly side of men in this first volume of S of C, with occasional visits in the arts to satisfy our thirst for beauty. Balance.

    We have differed on several fronts and posting our thoughts served the purpose of venting our feelings of nothing else. But in that way we have learned a great deal about what makes people tick.

    In this volume of S of C, women are seen merely as sexual objects. Women have provided great contributions to the shaping of history but I have not felt it here except on rare occasions.

    My feminine brain is searching for an answer to Voltaire’s question. I don’t think men are civilized yet, women perhaps more.

    Eloïse

    kiwi lady
    Back from lurk mode to add my sixpence worth.

    I do not believe we have learnt much in these thousands of years. Why you might say?

    This morning I watched on TV the story of the Awa Indian tribes who until recent years lived their lives in the Amazon rainforest without interference from outside influences. These people are hunters/gatherers with a sophisticated knowledge of herbal medicine. Until civilization came upon them with the advent of a railway to carry ore from a mine they lived in perfect harmony with the environment. They kept flora and fauna in perfect balance with century old methods of conservation. They are a very healthy people in comparison with the indigenous peoples of other lands who have been "civilized" for a hundred years or more.

    Because of the greed Western Society thrives on, we civilized peoples are slowly destroying our beautiful planet and killing each other by industrial pollution and starvation caused by interfering with age old lifestyles.

    No I do not think we will ever be civilized!

    Carolyn

    robert b. iadeluca
    Durant closes this Volume I with the following words:--

    "Much was left for the classic world to add to this rich inheritance.

    "Crete would build a civilization almost as ancient as Egypt's and would serve as a bridge to bind the cultures of Asia, Africa and Greece.

    GREECE would transform art by seeking not size but perfection. GREECE would marry a feminine delicacy of form and finish to the masculine architecture and statuary of Egypt, and would provide the scene for the greatest age in the history of art.

    "GREECE would apply to all the realms of literature the creative exuberance of the free mind. GREECE would contribute meandering epics, profound tragedies, hilarious comedies and fascinating histories to the store of European letters. GREECE would organize universities, and establish for a brilliant interlude the secular independence of thought.

    "GREECE would develop beyond any precedent the mathematics and astronomy, the physics and medicine, bequeathed it by Egypt and the East. GREECE would originate the sciences of life, and the naturalistic view of man. GREECE would bring philosophy to consciousness and order, and would consider with unaided rationality all the problems of our life.

    "GREECE would emancipate the educated classes from ecclesiasticism and superstition, and would attempt a morality independent of supernatural aid. GREECE would conceive man as a citizen rather than as a subject. GREECE would give him political liberty, civil rights, and an unparalleled measure of mental and moral freedom. GREECE would create democracy and invent the individual.

    "ROME would take over this abounding culture, spread it throughout the Mediterranean world, protect it for half a millennium from barbarian assalt, and then transit it, through Roman literature and the Latin languages, to northern Europe. ROME would lift woman to a power and splendor, and a mental emancipation, which perhaps she had never known before. ROME would give Europe a new calendar, and teach it the principles of political organization and social security. ROME would establish the rights of the individual in an orderly system of laws that would help to hold the continent together through centuries of poverty, chaos and superstition.

    "Meanwhile the Near East and Egypt would blossom again under the stimulus of Greek and Roman trade and thought.

    "Carthage would revive all the wealth and luxury of Sidon and Tyre.

    "The Talmud would accumulate in the hands of dispersed but loyal Jews.

    "Science and philosophy would flourish at Alexandria. Out of the mixture of European and Oriental cultures would come a religion destined in part to destroy, in part to preserve and augment, the civilization of Greece and Rome. Everything was ready to produce the culminating epochs of classical antiquity -- Athens under Pericles, Rome under Augustus, and Jerusalem in the age of Herod.

    "The stage was set for the three-fold drama of Plato, Caesar, and Christ."

    The words are Durant's. The caps are mine to help give us a taste of what lies in store for those who choose to immerse themselves in Volume II (The Life of Greece.)

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    Stepping aside as an impartial Discussion Leader, I am taking this opportunity to share my thoughts as we bring this discussion to an end.

    I pause and in my mind I rush backwards -- back through Ancient Japan, China, India, Persia, Judea, Assyria, Babylonia, Egypt, Sumeria -- as if I were in a time machine I rush through weeks, months, years, centuries, millennia and see a blur of palaces, battles, pyramids, cities, ships, hieroglyphics, armies, rivers, costumes, statues, gods, universities, dancers, paintings -- I hear the battle shouts of men with swords, the cries of subjugated women, the wails of children who do not understand what is happening to them, the songs of couples in love, the prayers of believers.

    In my time machine I rush back four thousand years. Suddenly it stops and I see and hear -- TODAY?! Perhaps I am confused. But how can I be? I recognize familiar scenes of armies fighting, people praying, dancers pirouetting. I recognize the same words said and sung by men to the ladies they love, the same incantations spoken by the priests to their followers, the same cries by innocent children. Four thousand years ago and today -- no difference?

    Durant moved very quickly from pre-historic man (1,000,000 years or more ago) to Sumeria (only 4,000 years ago). Those 4000 years were but the tick of a clock. There are two hundred fifty 4000-year periods stretching back from Sumeria to that man in the Heading above lighting a fire. The woman in the Heading reading to her children is not that different from an Ancient Egyptian woman reading to her children from papyrus. We call the era of 4,000 years ago "ancient." Evolution is laughing at us. In a sense, we have been reading about yesterday.

    Physiological psychologists tell us about the frontal lobes which are often called the "new brain" (the part that thinks) and the limbic system which is often called the "old brain." The "old" brain is also called the "reptillian" brain -- the same brain that is found in reptiles and causes us to react to anything dangerous to our survival. Millions of years passed while the new brain developed and, in my opinion, by the time the age of Sumeria arrived, the new brain had been in existence a long time and was not that different from the one we have now.

    Why then would we have expected the human of today to be that much different from the human of 4,000 years ago? We have only just arrived. We have only just been born.

    And that led me to the question of my own individual existence.

    I call to mind the following verse by Julia A. Fletcher Carney:--

    Little drops of water
    Little grains of sand
    Make the mighty ocean
    And the pleasant land

    My sojourn with you folks in "Our Oriental Heritage" over the last ten months has led me to believe that I am but a grain of sand. For a brief moment I translate that in my mind to mean that I am "nothing" but then quickly realize that I, along with billions, trillions of other "grains" are building this universe. However, it also causes me to arrive at a small place of humility. I envision two people talking a century from now. One says: "What do you think of Robby Iadeluca?" and the other replies: "Who's he?" Even those who become world leaders are forgotten after a century or two. Four thousand years from now? Ten thousand years from now? Forget it. As individuals, in my opinion, we hardly exist.

    As I see it, the will to survive will continue to exist, whether it be in the individual or the clan or the tribe or the nation or the planet. It is built into us. And sometimes the only way I can survive is by preventing the other person from annihilating me. Wars, then, in my opinion will continue. Nature, in my opinion, is neutral. It doesn't care if Robby Iadeluca continues to exist or not. There will be others.

    What, therefore, was the purpose of my existence here? I believe it was to join other grains of sand in moving toward a small modicum of what we choose to call civilization. I, as just one living organism, have done this in two ways:--biologically, by passing my genes on to my descendants and culturally, by absorbing new knowledge and passing this on (formally or informally) to everyone with whom I come in contact. Neuropsychological research teaches us that every single iota of information that enters the brain changes it in some form. Hopefully, in my brief existence in the scheme of things, I will have taken knowledge I have obtained and caused it to enter and change (for the better) the brains of my colleagues. They will then pass this and added information onto others. And in this way thousands and billions of years will pass.

    If I believe that there was only the briefest flicker of time that passed from Ancient Egypt to now, and that we are amazingly similar, then what have I gained from these past ten months? I believe that with the combined help of Durant and the rest of you I have learned much much more about the people in my own time period. But even past that I have - hopefully - gathered a bit of self-wisdom.

    At least, that is where I stand at the moment.

    Robby

    Bubble
    Such a wealth in ancient Greece. What is Greece today? Bubble

    Bubble


    I once wrote this:



    I am just a tiny bead, a frail dot
    On the long spiral unfolding aroud me.
    What I think, what I do
    Is of no consequence whatsoever.
    Should I ever be the last link,
    Even that wouldn't matter
    In the overall tapestry of humankind.



    We really are just one colored stich in the tapestry of time. Bubble

    Malryn (Mal)
    It's not bad enough that I woke to a gray, dreary day; pulled myself up by my bootstraps, nurturing a little hope that I'll feel better today than I have recently, switched on the computer as usual, sorry that this discussion which has been a big part of my somewhat isolated life is ending, Robby Iadeluca comes in and tells me eloquently that nothing has changed in thousands of years and I'm not worth a cent. Hey, what a downer!

    Do you really believe that I have thought I was after I came to the realization too early that life could kick people painfully in the pants, that people I loved would die or leave me some other way, that I'd never write that musical show or sonata in my head, have one of my paintings hung in a really good gallery, write anything close to the Great American Novel, or leave a mark in this world in any other small way? Grain of sand, indeed!

    Well, I have three kids, all but one of them who is okay, and I have five grandchildren. They are my immortality. Some of what I've imparted to my two sons and my daughter has gone down to their children, even if it's only a kind of silliness in the way of humor and an artistic talent which runs through this family's genes. Some recovering alcoholic or person recovering from addiction to drugs might possibly remember a bit of aid from me, as might some young people I've tried to teach more than just music. Who knows? My way of perpetuating and improving the human race is not a drop in the bucket, but there's nobody out there who can say I haven't tried. I figure if my anti-war talk and suggestions that there is a better way has reached just one person in a million, I've accomplished something.

    Will and Ariel Durant's The Story of Civilization is pointing out to me some mistakes in my viewpoint and thinking, which I'm trying to change. It has opened up worlds I truly did not know. I have talked about what I learned to my daughter and others. I have tried to spread the word.

    More poetically, I can say that I've stood alone on a beach and looked up at endless skies and realized how minuscule a part of nature I am, and felt humbled by gratitude that I'm here. I've stood in the shadow of people who have developed the frontal lobe Robby mentioned more than I'll ever be able to, and have known how they influenced me. I have tried to give what I have learned and know to others. I HAVE LIVED.

    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)

    Bubble posted a question which has disappeared. The question was, "But, Mal, who will remember?"
    My answer is this. I remember this life's journey. That is enough.

    Mal

    HubertPaul
    Is it No Thingness?

    Elizabeth N
    I heard this description of life once and took it as my own: The Universe is a great organic growing entity. It has a Memory. Any Good that is done pushes it toward enhanced being. Any bad that is done diminishes it. With every thought, I participate in its growth, or the opposite. I believe my stretching to keep up with this discussion has been a good; I feel exercised in that direction. Thank you Robbie and all.

    kiwi lady
    I have asked Vanessa to try and get Vol 2 from the Varsity Library for me. She managed to get Vol 1. I hope to be able to join the new discussion.

    Carolyn

    robert b. iadeluca
    As all of you know, Durant's "Story of Civilization" consists of eleven volumes. We have just completed the first volume, "Our Oriental Heritage." The second volume is entitled "The Life of Greece."

    A number of people in Senior Net have indicated that while they had not been interested in the Ancient Orient, that they were definitely interested in Ancient Greece, seeing that as the ancient civilization from which we draw many of our customs and beliefs.

    A number of people have asked me to be the Discussion Leader if that discussion should come about but I would prefer not to do it unless the number of people who truly want to participate reached a "critical mass." Based on the experience in Our Oriental Heritage, I see the minimum number of "starters" as ten, and preferably more.

    I intend to take a three week vacation from Story of Civilization and would begin LofG on Sunday, September 22nd. My 82nd birthday is three days later on the 25th and it would be a nice present to learn that most of us (plus more) want to get together again. Arrangements have been made for this forum to remain open for those three weeks. My hope is that the open forum would be used solely for two purposes --

    1 - For those who participated in SofC to continue sharing their thoughts about the Orient in general and limiting their remarks related to the theme. I would hope that it would not turn into a general "chat" session unrelated to what we have been discussing.

    2 - For those who want to participate in Life of Greece to officially so state in this forum. The best type of advertising is "word of mouth." Please contact your friends on Senior Net (or others) asking them to join us. With rare exceptions, I will not post during the three weeks. However, I will keep count of those officially intending to participate. This would also allow enough time for those interested to buy, borrow, or steal the book, if they so wish.

    For those who will make occasional comments during those three weeks, please keep in mind the following caveat that was posted when this discussion started in November:--



    "To my knowledge, no civilization of any sort has existed without some sort of ritual which one can call religious. For this reason, it will be impossible to participate in this forum without discussing "religion" from time to time.

    However, the following guidelines will be enforced by the Discussiion Leader to avoid confrontations and digressions about personal religious views.

    1 - You may make one post describing your own beliefs related to religion (whether you have a religious faith or do not) in order to explain your viewpoint toward the topic at hand. Making additional posts about your religious beliefs or faith is not permitted.

    2 - Do not speak of your religion or absence of religious beliefs as "the truth."

    3 - Do not attempt to change another's conviction about religion. Comments about issues are welcomed. Negative comments about other participants are not permitted.

    Those participants who do not believe they are being treated fairly in this respect always have the right to contact Marcie, Director of Education. I will follow her guidance."

    Robby

    kiwi lady
    Robbie I am a starter!

    Carolyn

    Malryn (Mal)
    I'll participate in the Life of Greece discussion, Robby.

    Mal

    Justin
    I am looking forward to reading Greece with you and all the other posters from OOH.

    Justin
    187 pieces of Egyptian art from the collection of the British Museum have found their way to San Francisco for an exhibition called "Eternal Egypt". There is a standing nude sculpture in wood (2321 BCE) from the Old Kingdom,a standing Sesostris lll, from the Middle Kingdom, and a great many pieces from the New Kingdom. You will remember that the New Kingdom included the powerful Thutmose lll,Akhenaten the Heretic, and Tutankamon. In addition there are pieces from the Rameside period, the Hyksos period, and a few encaustic portraits from the Roman 2nd century. If you are near San Francisco you should try to see the collection. It is well worth your time. The collection moves on in late November to Minneapolis, then Chicago and finally Baltimore before returning to Britain in January 2004.

    moxiect
    Rob

    I am interested the Life of Greece discussion

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    I will be here also for 'Life of Greece' Robby.

    Eloïse

    dapphne
    I will be following this "Life Of Greece" discussion......

    Bubble
    I am looking forward to Greece. I would not have been able to start it, had it been in September because of our High Holidays. Thank you Robby for taking a well earned vacation. Bubble

    Malryn (Mal)
    These are links to some of the places and things we'll talk about when we begin the Life of Greece discussion. Click the thumbnail image to access a larger picture, please.



    Classical Greek Architecture



    Classical Greek Sculpture



    Delphi



    Athens

    Marvelle
    ROBBY, I'll be here for the Greek discussion and I'm looking forward to an exciting time. I only lurked at the last part of OOH and found the conversation stimulating and thought-provoking.

    Absolutely lovely links, MAL, throughout OOH and now for Greece. That took a lot of work on your part and I appreciate it. Well done!

    Marvelle

    Malryn (Mal)
    Gosh, Marvelle, thank you. I've enjoyed doing it. I'm very pleased you'll be joining us in discussing Life of Greece.

    Mal

    Elizabeth N
    I will be following "The Life of Greece" discussion.

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    Mal, it gave me great pleasure to go through your links above. I have seen many originals, but I was never in Greece, but in London, Paris, Lisbon and New York's fine museums, I spend many happy hours just admiring the beauty of Greecian art. Thank you for your tireless research for S of C Mal, I appreciate your participation.

    Eloïse

    North Star
    I'm going to try to keep up with the discussion on Greece. I got way behind in the Oriental heritage discussion and just lurked from time to time. In the Religious Issues, we just had a go at roots of modern religions and turned up some really interesting stuff on the Canaanites, Eyptians, Sumerians and Zoroastrians. We didn't have a nice, fair moderator like Robbie so it was no holds barred. I'll behave myself here.

    MaryPage
    I plan to do the next 10 Durant books with Robby. Then if he wants to do their other 2 books, the Lessons of History and the Philosophy of History, I hope to still be kicking and following along.

    Marvelle
    NORTH STAR, great, you'll be able to give us good information on what a Zorastrian is during the Greek section. That belief comes up in the Peloponnesian War with the Persian King Xerxes who was a Zorastrian.

    I've nominated a Greek history book for the HISTORY discussion and HAROLD has suggested a second Greek book. The 'Greeks' may not be selected for a January read but I'm reading them anyway for fun. These two books describe the war of Greeks -- on their homeland -- against the invading Persians who are led by King Xerxes.

    Marvelle

    kiwi lady
    Vanessa got Vol 2 for me with no trouble. There is not a big classical studies dept at the University and don't think the book has been out for yonks. I will only have it for about 2mths poss 3. Its a lot smaller book than Vol 1. Hope we do the discussion it looks like we may have the numbers.

    Carolyn

    Bubble
    MaryPage, I hope that the second volume will stretch the same amount of time. So we can have Robby with us for the next ten years at least. I have all the intention to be here and kicking for it. It may even keep all of our minds active and Alzheimer-free.



    Robby, put that into your diary please, we were the first to ask you! Bubble

    Marvelle
    I think NORTH STAR can fill me in briefly when we get to King Xerxes.

    NORTH STAR, I don't expect to have a discussion of Zoaraster but a short post from you giving the highlights would be greatly appreciated. I lived for many years in the Far East and Mideast parts of the world. I have at best a very hazy understanding of that religion since it evolved into other beliefs that now predominate those areas. Thanks.

    Marvelle

    HubertPaul
    Although the question on Zoroastrianism was directed to North Star, allow me to respond also. Following are some abbreviated excerpts from a book "The Wisdom of the Ages"

    "Although little is known of the life of Zoroaster aside from the legends preserved in the Pahlavi literature of "Middle Persia", it is almost certain that he was the first prophet in history and certainly the first to preach a monotheistic belief."

    "...........The scriptures state that he was conceived of a virgin by Ahura Mazda, the Creator, that he evaded numerous assassination attempts instigated by jealous priests, calmed wild beasts and, while still a child, exhibited a wisdom beyond his years......'

    "........Unlike other prophets in the Abrahamic religions, Zoroaster did not physically experience the presence of God, but was divinely inspired from within......"

    "......Zoroaster.....preaching that there was but one God, who had created twin spirits, one malign (Angra Mainyu), the other the Holy Spirit (Spenter Mainya) who fought each other for control of the world....."

    "......Zoroaster's vision of dualistic forces, of Heaven and Hell, and the Final Judgement of mankind later had a profound, though rarely acknowledged, influence upon Jewish, Christian and Muslim thought. The religion he eventually founded, Gathic Mandaism, became the religion of three successive Iranian empires until Iran was finally overrun by forces of Islam......"

    North Star
    Hubert Paul: Thanks for your backgrounder on Zoroastrianism. Just because we discussed it in Religious Issues doesn't mean I retained any information. I will have to look it up the Internet just like everyone else.

    What I noticed from our discussion is that religions evolve, one from another. They pick up myths and legends and change them to suit the present need of the newer religion. The Jewish faith relied heavily on the Canaanites and the Egyptians as well as other religions and cultures. The Christians took material from the Jews, Mithraism and the Egyptians.

    Mithraism came to Rome in about 70 BCE. It was one of the religions of Rome until Christianity became the official religion about 350 years later. Since there are strong parallels between Christianity and Mithraism, it didn't take much of a leap to make Christianity the official religion.

    When I thought about it, I realized that historical accuracy was a recent development. The old stories contained some truths, some historical data but it wasn't necessary to get everything in perspective. For instance, sizes of armies were vastly exaggerated when one side won over another in a war. Legends grew up around the heroes who won.

    I'm putting this information into the forum now because I think it won't be relevant when we get to Greece except in a tangential way.

    kiwi lady
    I've started VOl 2 and I am really enjoying it. Thats all I will say for now. Can't wait to get going. Have we got the numbers?

    Carolyn

    Malryn (Mal)
    Moxie has posted here, and she intends to be in the discussion of Life of Greece. Her grandson was killed in an automobile accident last Thursday night, and she's having a hard time. If you feel as if you'd like to write her, her email address is Moxiect@aol.com

    Mal

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    Moxiect - I am so sorry to hear about your grand'son.

    Eloïse

    Malryn (Mal)
    Moxie's a brave soldier and full of spunk, as her name implies. She wrote to me this morning and said she was going to try to go into the Writers Exchange WREX discussion and post critiques at the end of the week. She thanks all of her SeniorNet friends for their kindness.

    I found a fun little website about Ancient Greeks on which you'll find information about what they ate, clothes they wore, and any number of things. There are links at the bottom of the page which will take you to other websites, including one for Aesop's Fables.



    DAILY LIFE IN ANCIENT GREECE

    Malryn (Mal)
    Here's another link about Ancient Greece. Did anyone look at the page I linked yesterday? Let's talk.

    MORE ABOUT ANCIENT GREECE. BE SURE TO CLICK THE LINKS AT THE SIDE OF THE PAGE

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    Mal - Greeks were considered immature until the age of 30? How interesting. Yes I spent some time reading your interesting link today. I am still thinking about what I learned from 'Our Oriental Heritage' because having spent 10 months discussing this, I have learned a lot and I would like to share it later perhaps.

    I am wondering how many more will be interested in Greece. I know of two more who will post later as we have until the 22nd to come forward, so there is still time for this.

    Eloïse

    Malryn (Mal)
    Okay.

    robert b. iadeluca
    I have just returned from a four-day vacation with my cousin, Diane, in Venice, Florida. As I see it, the following have stated they will definitely participate:

    Kiwi Lady (Carolyn), Mal, Justin, Moxie, Eloise, Dapphne, Bubble, Marvelle, Elizabeth, and North Star. Please encourage your Senior Net friends (and other friends) to join our group.

    Moxie:--So very very sorry to learn about your grandson.

    Robby

    kiwi lady
    Have we reverted? Seems to me our kids are not really considered to be adults til about 30. They certainly are not expected to be self sufficient or leave home at the age we did. My sons finally left home well in their 20's!

    I know I am going to really enjoy the Greek discussion. I am finding the book quite riveting!

    Carolyn

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    To add to Robby's list above, MaryPage and Hubert Paul. That makes 11 the number who said they would participate in Life of Greece.

    robert b. iadeluca
    The Senior Net Bookfest will be held in Washington, DC October 9 through 13 at the Harrington Hotel. Throughout this period of time, the fantastic Ancient Egypt Exhibition will be at the National Museum of Art. This is huge and will appear in only five U.S. cities. It's free but because it is closing on October 14, those of you who are interested should get yourself a timed ticket in advance. There will be the usual last minute mobs trying to get tickets.

    Some of us here who spent a considerable period of time in this forum visiting Ancient Egypt may find this exhibition especially interesting.

    For further info about the Bookfest itself, click on "Bookfest" in the Heading above.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    I also note that those attending the Bookfest will be attending the IMAX movies on Friday evening (Oct 11). One of them is "Egypt" which begins at 8:45 p.m.

    These movies are always spectacular.

    Robby

    3kings
    CAROLYN, ROBBY, MALRYN, and all As a lurker here, I can say what the posters to SoC lack in quantity, they make up in quality. So carry on, please. I for one admire your efforts every day.-- Trevor

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    Carolyn - Marilou's brother-in-law is lending me Life in Greece in English. I didn't have the first book Oriental Heritage. I don't know where I will find the time to read it, but I will try. Robby will have to roll up his sleeves for this discussion because we are all geared up for GREECE, ROME, AND CHRIST, right Mal?

    moxiect


    Just wanted to thank you all for your support during my tradegy!

    ps. I, too, am looking forward to Ancient Greece

    Lady C
    ROBBIE:

    I have been struggling to keep up even though I haven't posted. But I am still part of this group, so count me in. I read the posts even though I may not have anything to contribute very often. When I do, I promise you'll hear from me. I do have the Greek volume and will start on it now.

    Claudia

    robert b. iadeluca
    Thank you, Claudia.

    I don't want to make any assumptions, so I list only those who have indicated in this forum that they will definitely participate. The list as follows is:--

    Kiwi Lady, Mal, Justin, Moxiect, Eloise, Dapphne, Sea Bubble, Marvelle, Elizabeth, North Star, and Claudia.

    Hope you are all enjoying this respite as much as I am.

    Robby

    kiwi lady
    I am enjoying participating in Angle of Repose Robby! We will be finished before the Life in Greece Discussion starts! All those who attend the bookfest how about a report when you get back. I envy you!

    Carolyn

    MaryPage
    ROBBY, please note my post # 771 and ELOISE'S post # 787.

    Now, why is it I cannot make your list?

    robert b. iadeluca
    MaryPage:--Parceque je suis aveugle.

    Robby

    Bubble
    Robby,
    'seems like you are having too much fun elsewhere! (WEG) Bubble

    robert b. iadeluca
    Bubble:--Gather ye rosebuds while ye may.

    Robby

    Faithr
    I am suffering this morning from cold of all things. It is only about 59 in my house and that feels cold to me after the summer heat.So I have a big sweater on and think of all those hot days when I wanted to cool off. I am late in signing in as a participate of this discussion. Seems like I had October in my mind. Anyhooo here I am ready to start learning again. Faith

    robert b. iadeluca
    Great, Faith! We'll add you to the list.

    Robby

    Tucson Pat
    Love Greek culture...simpatico to my Italian heritage.

    robert b. iadeluca
    Welcome, Pat! I still remember all the good times we Senior Netters had in Tucson last April.

    Our current list of interested parties is Kiwi Lady, Mal, MaryPage, Justin, Moxiect, Eloise, Dapphne, Sea Bubble, Marvelle, Elizabeth, North Star, Lady C, Faith, and Tucson Pat.

    Robby

    CallieK
    I'll be lurking, too. Now that the discussion has moved "farther west", I'm more interested.

    Anne Kerr
    I'll be lurking, too. Seems that's what I do best....

    Jo Walker
    Please add my name to your roster for Life of Greece. I came in late but have almost finished the first volume and read all the posts through Part 6 so far, in an effort to catch up. I'm another who has had this book gathering dust for a few years and was glad to find others with whom to read it. Jo Walker

    robert b. iadeluca
    Jo:--A warm welcome to you and my hat's off to you for stolidly going through all the posts through Part 6 which have a link above in the heading. That's an amazing 6000+ postings!!! Your time will not be wasted because I have a sneaking hunch that as we go through The Life of Greece, participants here who were part of Our Oriental Heritage will comment on certain memories they have from those previous thousands of posts. And their comments will be meaningful to you. The link above will remain until shortly before September 22nd and, even after that, they will go to the Archives where you can pull them up if you wish.

    Robby

    Bill H
    Robby, I don't have the book, but perhaps I can get enough from the quotes you post to make some contributions.

    Bill H

    AAlice
    Ok, Robbie, here I am, I will join in when I can.

    Would you all like to hear some news....I will in December complete the requirements for my BA in Art Management with a minor in Studio Art. This is something I have wanted to do all my life but providing for my family and climbing up the career ladder put it all on the back burner. I have got to hold the record for the longest student but I have finally done it! One more project to complete and hand in!

    3kings
    Congratulations, AALICE! An experience such as yours, makes one feel good, dosen't it?

    ROBBY, to answer your e-mail; yes I will be with you all in the 'Life of Greece', so you should add me to the list of participants. Ciao for now, -- Trevor

    robert b. iadeluca
    Alice:--Congratulations! You're our type of gal (guy) here in SofC!! We're obviously going to have great fun here in Life of Greece.

    Trevor:--Your comments in Oriental Heritage were always much appreciated. Glad you will be with us again!

    Robby

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    AAlice - Such good news. Félicitations. You are finished and I am starting. Tomorrow I take my first course towards a Bachelor's degree in Education with a concentration on Learning as an Elderly person. My first assignment is High School Drop Out.

    I am happy that you are joining us for Life of Greece. This promises to be an exciting discussion.

    Eloïse

    robert b. iadeluca
    Following are the people who have posted here indicating their intention to participate in The Life of Greece:--

    Kiwi Lady, Mal, MaryPage, Justin, Moxiect, Eloise, Dapphne, Sea Bubble, Marvelle, Elizabeth, North Star, Lady C, Faith, Tucson Pat, Callie K, Anne Kerr, Jo Walker, Bill H, AAlice, and Trevor.

    We have another two full weeks before starting this fascinating volume. It is not necessary to have the volume in hand to participate here, but you will find it advantageous. You can get a second hand hardback or a paperback by clicking onto the Barnes & Noble icon in the Heading above. A percentage of their profit goes to Senior Net. Many participants in "Our Oriental Heritage" got their hands on one by frequenting second hand bookstores, going to yard sales, borrowing from friends, and in one way or another "bugging" those who have the volume and have read it or do not intend to read it. On the other hand, if you know another Senior Netter or a non-Senior Netter who has the volume, perhaps you can cajole him/her into joining us.

    Remind your friends we are NOT a class but a group of curious individuals who are as a group trying to find out the origin of mankind, where we are now, and where we are going -- and are currently examining the Ancient Greek phase of this travel through time.

    Robby

    HubertPaul
    And I'll peek in.

    Bert

    Faithr
    AAlice let me add my congratulations on the new BA, I think it is wonderful you completed your goal. See you in the discussion. faith

    robert b. iadeluca
    Great, Hubert! "Peeks" are always accepted here.

    Robby

    MaryPage
    ALICE, way to go, gal!

    ELOISE, good plan, my friend!

    Malryn (Mal)
    Congratulations, AAlice. Brava for you. You, too, Eloise. Good luck on your quest.

    I took my degree 52 years ago and haven't learned a darned thing since then. ( Or wanted to! ) Maybe I'll be forced to with this discussion about Greece coming up. One thing sure, I won't have to take midterms or finals, prelims or write a thesis, and I know darned well I won't flunk out.

    Mal

    Nellie Vrolyk
    As usual I'll be lurking around in the discussion.

    And I might even leave a post; but I can't promise anything.

    robert b. iadeluca
    Nellie, your lurking is welcomed!!

    Robby

    AAlice
    Thank you all so much for your comments. I have worked in the fields of finance, budget, and computers so long that art is a wonderful, wonderful adventure. It has always been my first love. Well, I really wanted to be a second Frank Lloyd Wright til I reached calculus! I am even going to try to do some substitute teaching after I retire!

    Anyway, the Greeks did much for us.....I am looking forward to the discussion.

    Heloise, I knew you were doing something like that but I don't know if I understand exactly what it is. Are you going to teach seniors?

    Malryn (Mal)
    AAlice, I am a well-trained musician and a totally untrained artist who taught myself to paint and all I know about art history. At the moment I work with web page layouts, computer art and graphic art, but I have no idea what Art Management is. Could you give me a clue?

    Mal

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    Alice - Right now I will be studying in view of teaching seniors later, you are right. This project is well explained in this email we received from one of our teachers in Spain where I took the first course on Gerontagogy. "An intergenerational and intercultural experience with regard to older people's education." It is an international program where we are learning how to teach seniors facts about their capacity to learn in later years.

    AAlice
    ELOISE!!!!! I got the name right this time, I apologize, I know perfectly well you are Eloise, not Heloise!!!!! Lordy, don't know how I came up with that! Is this a new area you are learning about? I have never heard about it and I think it is wonderful. I think the reason people get old and sick is because they just believe when you get older you can't learn and do the same things anymore. It's a proven fact that although our minds are slower, we can pack just as much into them. I find learning is much easier and way more fun now.

    Malryn, a degree in Art Management enables one to manage or direct a museum or gallery, center for the arts, etc. The core courses taken are Art History, Business Math, Art design, grants and endowments, and several art classes. I had a degree in Business Administration so I was able to apply many of the credits from that into this. I also was required to do an internship at one of the Art Centers in Omaha where I was involved with the day-to-day operations. I touched on everything from organization of the research library, fund raising, resident artist, art classes, auctions, tours, payroll, publications, organization of exhibits, school of art, etc. It is indeed interesting. My research project was to write a package to apply for a grant to open a Center for the Arts in a small rural community.

    Elizabeth N
    Alice, I just saw a movie that claims to be true in everyway possible about the group of theatre people and artists and art enthusiasts in NYC in 1935 when Roosevelt had ok'ed a Federal Theatre. One event was Hearst (of Hearst Castle) passing money (probably gold) in a leather satchel to a steel manufacturer who did work for Mussolini who in turn arranged for a di Vinci and a Michael Angelo to be smuggled into this country. The story was that M. needed the money for his army. The movie is called The Cradle Will Rock and is very much like a documentary. The credits say it was even edited on "old machines," and it is stuffed with wonderful actors. In the art world, is it thought to be true that Mussolini sold some of Italy's treasures?

    Justin
    Yes, many Italian owned art works were sold to Hearst during the thirties usually with the aid of Berenson who was a resident of Florence. He recomended and was the consulting art agent for many art deals with US citizens and American Museums. He operated until War broke out, lived in Italy under the Nazis, and arranged many deals after the war. I am not aware specifically of a Leonardo or a Michelangelo that came to this country during that period. There are so few Leonardos that are transportable and the same is true for the Michelangelos-some cartoons, perhaps. Of course we would expect that these would appear in the Hearst catalogue.

    Justin
    Yes, many deals were made by American citizens and museums for the sale of Italian owned art during the thirties, usually with the aid of Bernard Berenson who lived in Florence before, during and after the War. I don't know specifically, about the Leonardo and the Michelangelo you mention, however, it is doubtful because there are so few pieces of art by these artists that are transportable- cartoons perhaps, maybe sketches. In any case, the works would show up in the Hearst catalogue and in the catalogues for these artists.

    Justin
    AAlice: Congratulations. We may be old but we're not asleep, are we? We can still learn. We are proud of you. What do you think of the "Documentary" Elizabeth mentioned? I wonder about Leonardo's "notebooks and models" that have been kicking around the US for some time. There were some sketches for St. Anne cartoons rumored to have come in a strange way but I think they were fakes. Perhaps, Elizabeth can tell us more about the pieces in the story. Tales like these abound and they are always fun to follow-up.

    Faithr
    I have seen The Cradle Will Rock twice and have an idea that I will see it again as it is a really wonderful experience and like you observed Elizabeth it is packed with information. Faith

    Elizabeth N
    I did not recognize the paintings shown in the movie, but I will take closer note when I see it again so I can perhaps describe them.

    AAlice
    Yes, Elizabeth, there were as Justin mentioned many wonderful paintings sold during the war, and as he said I know of no Leonardo or Michelangelo paintings in specific. I think some painting are still being found today and many original owners from Europe want them back. Many were painted over so that they could not be recognized. I have seen the Cradle Will Rock, I think I will go get it to watch this weekend. I'll comment later.

    Thank you, Justin, I am proud.

    robert b. iadeluca
    No - we haven't started the discussion yet (please don't anyone get ahead of us) but a minor change in the Heading above may help to whet your appetite and be ready to roll on Sunday, September 22.

    Robby

    Bubble
    September 22? Oooooohhhh I thought it would be a week later



    We have a 8 days holiday then and I get company non stop. Robby, you will see me the week after then. Sorry. Bubble

    Elizabeth N
    Justin and Alice, Thank you for responding to my question. I found a short paragraph on Bernard Berenson on the web--a very interesting life! His biography would be appropriate on "Biographies" or "History Books" I think. In occurs to me--very late in life--that one can study history through art just as well as through kings and popes and wars.
    Elizabeth

    Elizabeth N
    I cannot find the meaning of the word envoi--"Do you mean envoy?" I have been asked twice.

    robert b. iadeluca
    Fron the Encyclopaedia of Literary Terms:--



    ENVOY (ENVOI) A poem, or the final stanza of a poem, that blesses or gives advice to someone departing.

    Elizabeth N
    Good word.

    robert b. iadeluca
    A reminder that shortly before we enter The Life of Greece, the link in the Heading above to all the previous postings on Our Oriental Heritage will disappear. They will be moved over to the Archives where they will still be available, but not as conveniently as linking from here.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    Are we all resting very well from Story of Civilization?

    Robby

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    Robby - I peeped in my copy of Life of Greece that a friend lent me and could not let go. But yes, I am resting from S of C for now. Next Sunday, it should be interesting to see all old friends again. Are you resting too Robby?

    Eloïse

    Lady C
    ROBBY:

    Couldn't help starting this volume and wont give anything away, BUT.....I would really like to know what has been understood/discovered/pinpointed/defined since the book was written. There have been so many advances in science that affect archaeology since the book was written. Busy as you are, maybe you can find time to get some info for us as we go along??? If nothing else, surely carbon dating must have changed some of the dates which had been estimated.

    I understnd that we now number 22 members of this group. Fantastic! especially since many of us lasted the ten months even if we didn't post much. Congratulations, Robby.

    Claudia

    robert b. iadeluca
    Claudia:--You may recall that as we went through Our Oriental Heritage, that we needed at times to update remarks by Durant. That is also where links helped. I'm sure we'll be updating in The Life of Greece as well.

    I'm pleased to see not only that some of you are obtaining the book (availble in second hand or paperback) but that you are finding it impossible to put the book down! It's going to be a terrific discussion!

    Robby

    Fifi le Beau
    Robby, I too will be following The Life of Greece. I will read along with you, and perhaps post occasionally. My time is limited, so I will probably do more reading than posting.

    Thank you for leading this discussion, and thanks also to the regular posters who keep this site lively and interesting.

    robert b. iadeluca
    Wonderful, Fifi! Glad to have you joining the gang!

    Robby

    Alki
    I'll join in too, in between other activities. I have been volunteering all summer at the Cape Disappointment lighthouse, and have I learned about lighthouses! Great fun! Alki

    robert b. iadeluca
    Alki:--Good to have you joining us! I would imagine that a country as close to the sea as Greece would have some lighthouses. Perhaps once we get started, Mal may pull some up for us.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    Sure will, Robby, when the time comes. I can't wait for the discussion to begin. Must get the book this weekend somehow or other. I know we don't need it, but I like to have the book nearby.

    How lovely that you'll join us, Alki.

    Mal

    MaryPage

    Alki
    Mary, one of the most asked questions at North Head was "what is the oldest known lighthouse in the world?", so I looked it up in my encyclopaedia and, yes, that was it.

    robert b. iadeluca
    Those who had been in Our Oriental Heritage from the very start knew (without looking it up) that it was the oldest. A picture of that (with all the accompanying statistics) and the other six "wonders of the world" were also portrayed here in this forum.

    Robby

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    Is there a way that we can retain everything that we learned in Our Oriental Heritage? I am willing to try anything, seriously if I want to study, I must retain more information. I don't just mean where I put a friend's address either and can't find it now.

    Eloïse

    Malryn (Mal)
    The only way I could retain information well when I was much younger and in school and college was to keep copious notes about what I was learning. The act of writing down facts and impressions and conclusions I've reached helped keep things in my memory.

    This continues today. I have stacks of notebooks in which are notes I've taken since I've owned a computer. Some are about books I've read. Some are about books I'm writing. Some are card files full of lists of images and midi files I've used, or will use, on web pages. Some are about writers I publish. Some are about critiques and editing I've done. Some are full of URL addresses of web pages I've visited. All are important to me.

    Mal

    Bubble
    You mean long hand writing? Then we have something in common! I have notebooks for references, citations and thoughts found while reading, info I will need, ideas for handwork, patterns I have used and hope to use again, bits and pieces of my writing that will come handy in some story or other, sites and interesting adresses, recipes I have been given or hope to experiment with. Lots of archives too, bequested to me. Bubble

    Malryn (Mal)
    Yes, handwriting, Bubble. I remember one time someone was helping me move from one place to another. He said, "You don't have much furniture or anything else but boxes of 'stuff' and books." He was right. Boxes of notebooks, papers and handwritten manuscripts. Stuff to him, but vital to me.

    Mal

    Bubble
    I hope they are on shelves with easy access. They are not much help in boxes! *grin* Bubble

    Malryn (Mal)
    Okay, I'm in business. My daughter's partner got Life of Greece for me at the Perkins Library where he works at Duke. That'll hold me until I am able to buy a copy, right?

    Mal

    kiwi lady
    I can't write longhand any more because of my wrists and hands being athritic its very painful to write with a pen. I find I can type much quicker and get more done before I have to stop with the pain. I type notes- Print them and put them in a good strong file. I have lots of notes also I have put on floppy disk. Actually my handwriting is getting pretty illegible now anyway.

    Carolyn

    Bubble
    I don't own a printer.

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    Nobody, not even me sometimes can read my handwriting, so I don't keep handwritten notes but I could't live without a printer. But Mal I am taking what you say very seriously. In my job, because I could never master shorthand, I used to fast write eliminating the vowels, as in Hebrew Bubble? and could take dictation that way, but it destroyed my handwriting.

    I have started to read Life of Greece beforehand. Did anyone read "The Greek Treasure" or the life of Henreich Schliemann the Archeologist who discovered the city of Troy by Irving Stone? Fascinating.

    Eloïse

    robert b. iadeluca
    I have now put my copy of "Our Oriental Heritage" back on the shelf with the other nine volumes. I say "nine" because The Life of Greece is here beside me next to the computer. Those people who like to keep their books in pristine condition would be absolutely horrified at the condition of my Volume I. There isn't a page in that text that does not contain red underlining -- some pages being more than half underlined. Not only that but the book gradually fell apart from the constant handling so that the various bound sections fell apart from each other. The front and back covers are what hold the sections together to make it appear to be one book as it sits on the shelf. Even a yard sale wouldn't be interested in it.

    But as the French say: "Tant pis!" (Eloise and others can translate). To me, what is important is what is now in my head and not the print and the paper on which it is printed. My personal goal was achieved. I read the book and, even more importantly to me, I read it along with a wonderful group of people who made the reading even more intriguing. I probably got more out of it than I would have if I had read it alone ten years ago.

    So now I gaze at Volume II -- still in pristine condition and minus red underlining except for a few pages at the beginning. That is the price that a Discussion Leader pays. He or she must always be in advance. However I am looking forward to owning -- not too long from now -- a dilapidated, "marked up", thumb-printed copy of The Life of Greece.

    And the destruction starts Sunday morning!!

    Robby

    Lady C
    ELOISE:

    Why do you need to memorize everything you read, or even make notes, unless you are writing a book? You enjoyed reading it, yes? And you've got the book to refer to when and if you wish to refresh your memory. I believe one shouldn't get into knots over trying to retain the facts. I used to do this in a book group and make notes and all that good stuff, until one day I found that I was retaining more than I realized and participating more than previously. After that I just read the book and relaxed. My advice is: Trust yourself. You're bright or you would never have gotten through that first killer of a volume, and you've probably remembered more than you think. If enyone ever makes a remark about any of it, betcha you will find lots of stuff occurring to you.

    Claudia

    Lady C
    ELOISE:

    I forgot to say that yes, I read The Gold of Troy when it was first published. Schleimann didn't do badly for and amateur, did he?

    Clsudia

    3kings
    TANT PIS OK I'll ask for an interpretation, as I don't know what it means... Help please, someone....-- Trevor

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    Tant pis means 'too bad'. An old French saying. I put a plastic cover on my borrowed copy of 'Life of Greece' to return it intact after I'm through, A YEAR FROM NOW???. Let me tell you that I like to devour a book and I have started to nibble that one already. HELP.

    kiwi lady
    Some of us can't access the book by buying it. Its just beyond my budget here and not in the second hand shops I have contacted so my books of this sort come via my daughter from the University.I get to keep them around 3 mths so if we haven't finished by the time the book has to go back I will take headline notes to remind me what I have read.

    I like that phrase Eloise! Just the pronounciation is very expressive.

    I have started reading the book but stopped to do some research on Eleanor Roosevelt (3 books) for another discussion. Looking forward to the first day.

    Carolyn

    robert b. iadeluca
    An added comment about "tant pis." The "s" is not pronounced. So it sounds like "pee." In what other Senior Net discussion group can one gain such important information!!

    Robby

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    And the last 't' in "tant pis" either. Are you bragging Robby?

    robert b. iadeluca
    Eloise:--Before we finish this volume, I will answer you in Greek.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)

    I've been monitoring your French in the Les Peregrines discussion, Robby, and must admit that I understand every single word. If you write Greek, it will be Greek to me.

    Just wanted to note that because my daughter's partner works at Duke University, the due date on this Life of Greece library book is June 2003. Think this discussion will be finished by then? With notes, the index, and Errata, the book I have in front of me is only 755 pages long. Of course, I won't be able to underline anything or write notes on the pages, but I never do that anyway.

    Mal

    Bubble
    Kali mera, Robby. Pos iste? Milate gallika?

    Repi diavazo pola epano Hellas.

    3kings
    It's too bad that I am uncertain how to say Tant Pis (Tan' Pi' maybe? ) Back to 'The Life of Greece'-- Trevor

    Bubble
    Trevor, just like "Temps PI". Bubble

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    Please Bubble, #870. I guess that it is Greek but I wonder how it would look with the Greek alphabet.

    Trevor, "Tant pis" You have to hear it because it doesn't sound at all like it is printed to a speaker of English because in French you don't pronounce the last letter of words and what's more in English you don't pronounce 'en' 'an' 'in' 'eux' 'on' 'ou' like we do in French. But we can still play until Sunday when Robby will quickly put a stop to all this banter with a stern reprimend.

    Bubble
    re #870, it looks very cute in the greek alphabet, but I have no idea how and if possible to post that here! LOL Bubble

    robert b. iadeluca
    For those who are interested (of which I am NOT one), here is an elementary GREEK LANGUAGE 101 -- so for 24 hours, have fun!

    Robby

    Bubble
    Thanks for that recap lesson, Robby! Strange but in old Greek we never learned about accents and stresses.



    Kali mera,= good morning
    Pos iste? = how are you
    Milate gallika? = do you speak French


    Repi diavazo pola epano Hellas.= It is necessary to read a lot about Grece. Hellas of course is Greece, as appears on this country's stamps. Bubble

    Ginny
    Hey! Greek! I have wonderful "Greekish" conversations with the guy at Pete's Drive Thru who does the Mobile Meals for the little country town I deliver in.

    I come in and say (or it sounds like this)

    YASoo, Yeordigo! (hey George!) and he says Yasoo, Tay Kynes (like Sea bubble said) and I go PoEEE KaLAH! (he asked how am I, I said splendid) then it breaks down all over the place haahahha

    EffarEEsto seems to be thank you and there's Kaieee MERa (r's not rolled, sort of ignored MED a) which I think is like how's it going, you'd think I had gotten farther, but it's fun anyway and one time I called him on the phone and said Yasoo Yordigo and Te Kynes and he thought I WAS Greek and immediately said many things.

    None of which I understood. hahahaha And I have heard him on the phone going KaLA, KaLA, KaLA, like yes, yes, so that's how that is used also.

    Just a thought, I have the Greek volume but am swamped, will continue reading as I always do, loved your post back there Robby about your old and new volumes.

    Speaks volumes about the joy of our discussions!

    Congratulations to all of you, what an achievement here and still going strong.

    ginny

    robert b. iadeluca
    As you all know, Ginny is the Host of the entire Books & Literature section. She is extremely busy staying in contact with every B&L discussion on Senior Net. So thank you, Ginny, for taking the time to occasionally visit us and for even making a post. Yes, we are all looking forward toward a terrific experience and hope you will post with us from time to time (even in English)!

    Robby

    jane
    Since there are the threat of storms, we better load up the ol' ship and set sail for Greece tonight.

    Step aboard here... Greece, Here We Come! and you'll be in Greece before you know it!