Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant ~ Volume IV, Part 8 ~ Nonfiction
Marjorie
September 8, 2005 - 07:01 am
  
"I want to know what were the steps by which man passed from barbarism to civilization." (Voltaire)

What are our origins? Where are we now? Where are we headed? Share your thoughts with us!

Volume Four (The Age of Faith)

"Four elements constitute Civilization -- economic provision, political organization, moral traditions, and the pursuit of knowledge and the arts. "

"I shall proceed as rapidly as time and circumstances will permit, hoping that a few of my contemporaries will care to grow old with me while learning. "

"These volumes may help some of our children to understand and enjoy the infinite riches of their inheritance."

"Civilization begins where chaos and insecurity ends."


THE ECONOMIC REVOLUTION

Causes
The Progress of Industry
Money
The Communes
The Agricultural Revolution
The Class War

In this Discussion Group we are not examining Durant. We are examining Civilization but in the process constantly referring to Durant's appraisals.

This volume surveys the medieval achievements and modern significance of Christian, Islamic, and Judaic life and culture. It includes the dramatic stories of St. Augustine, Hypatia, Justinian, Mohammed, Harun al-Rashid, Charlemagne, William the Conqueror, Eleanor of Aquitaine, Richard the Lion-Hearted, Saladin, Maimonides, St. Francis, St. Thomas Aquinas, Roger Bacon, and many others, all in the perspective of integrated history. The greatest love stories in literaure -- of Heloise and Abelard, of Dante and Beatrice -- are here retold with enthralling scholarship.

The Age of Faith covers the economy, politics, law, government, religion, morals, manners, education, literature, science, philosophy, and art of the Christians, Moslems, and Jews during an epoch that saw vital contests among the three great religions and between the religious and the secular view of human life. All the romance, poverty, splendor, piety and immorality, feudalism and monasticism, heresies and inquisitions, cathedrals and universities, troubadours and minnesingers of a picturesque millennium are gathered into one fascinating narrative.

This volume, and the series of which it is a part, has been compared with the great work of the French encyclopedists of the eighteenth century. The Story of Civilization represents the most comprehensive attempt in our times to embrace the vast panorama of man's history and culture.

This, then, is about YOU. Join our group daily and listen to what Durant and the rest of us are saying. Better yet, share with us your opinions.

Your Discussion Leader:Robby Iadeluca

Story of Civilization, Vol. IV, Part 1 | Story of Civilization, Vol. IV, Part 2 | Story of Civilization, Vol. IV, Part 3 | Story of Civilization, Vol.IV, Part 4 | Story of Civilization, Vol.IV, Part 5 | Story of Civilization, Vol.IV, Part 6 | Story of Civilization, Vol.IV, Part 7
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jane
September 13, 2005 - 07:00 am
Remember to subscribe!

Éloïse De Pelteau
September 13, 2005 - 07:54 am
and I am still here enjoying Durant and the others. I bet all those posts would make a good book if someone had the inclination to go through 7,000 of them on half of volume IV alone. Congratulations everybody, you deserve it.

JoanK
September 13, 2005 - 09:53 am
Pope's names: John doesn't seem to fare well. There was one King John in England, whom nobody liked (i forget why) and no one has followed. Now we get Pope Johns. Have there been any more?

tooki
September 13, 2005 - 11:47 am
Great article, Robby. (p. 990) Thank you, Justin, for recommending that it be read. (p.995) Here are a few highlights:

The article discusses the current humanistic politics of “the world’s oldest institutional office,” the papacy. The writer speaks to efforts in the 19th and 20th century to renew Catholicism as an evangelical movement in history. He addresses points that Durant has been hitting on: from at least the 5th century on there have existed two modes of authority. There is the consecrated authority of the priesthood and the secular, governmental power. They are ever at odds, but the papacy has been a barrier to political tyranny since the 5th century. Over the centuries “libertas ecclesiae,” freedom of the church, has been a check on totalitarianism.

Basically, because the Church has a life of its own, independent of other political life, it has a moral freedom that has allowed it to evolve to an evangelical movement with a global mission.

This is all inspiring. However, the author lost my sympathies with this:

“The Pope’s personal campaign prior to the 1994 Cairo World Conference on Population and Development, and adroit Holy See diplomacy in Cairo itself, frustrated the efforts of the Clinton Administration and its European and NGO allies to have abortion-on-demand declared a fundamental human right under international law. Holy See diplomacy since 1994 has been important in rallying opposition to the new totalitarianism of lifestyle libertinism in regional and international forums, on issues of the family, homosexuality, etc.”

Traude S
September 13, 2005 - 07:47 pm
TOOKI, I couldn't agree more with the last paragraph of your #4.

However, the Pope and the Catholic Church are not alone in stubbornly adhering to the centuries-old agenda regarding abortion, birth control, homosexuality.

Moreover, don't the Evangelical denominations in this country vigorously (I want to say zealously) promulgate a similar agenda with far-reaching influence on domestic policy-making? And what about our foreign aid to overpopulated countries in the third world that DISallows the distribution of birth control information?

This may have no bearing on the subject at hand but I needed to say it, and so I have.

Fifi le Beau
September 13, 2005 - 09:11 pm
Robby's question, According to the author of this ARTICLE, "the power of the papacy lies in moral persuasion capable of being translated into political effectiveness." Do you agree?

Durant has just brought the church and it's leaders through the year 1,000 and is half way through the next century. Up to that point, there is no way for me to use the word 'moral' in any context with the church and its leaders, including the pope.

Durant's words are bribery, murder, theft, poison, beheadings, adultery, incest, using papal palace for brothel, buying and selling church offices, including the pope.

Selling a ten year old the office of bishop. Making a twelve year old pope, who led so shameful a life, the people drove him from Rome themselves. He eventually was put back in power, but tired of the office and sold the papacy to Gregory.

The pope going to war to kill his opponent for the office. Did any of these popes use 'moral persuasion' to achieve their political goals? No would be my answer. They were only interested in power, land grabs, and money. The people of Rome saw them for what they were, and acted accordingly. They could only claim 'moral authority' to those who did not know them.

The church eventually solved the problem of 'familarity' by the people for the pope. They built a fortress with guards that controlled who could see the pope and church leaders, and when they could see them. The church had always kept secrets from their flock, even their holy book, and now they added a 'keeper of the gate'.

The next thousand years leading up to today and the headlines of rape of children, adultery, the cover up and protection of rapists by the leaders of the church, leads me to vote No on any 'moral authority' of the pope and the cardinals.

I do believe there are many who work tirelessly with 'moral authority' within the church. They look for their authority not in this world but outside it. They have no political ambitions, nor do they covet the Vatican purse, or care to cover up to protect it. If the church is to achieve any authority with moral persuasion, it will be because of them, not Rome.

Durant said, "The victorious soldiers in the Christian conquest of Europe were the monks, and the nurses in that war were the nuns."

It is still true today, in my opinion.

Fifi

Justin
September 13, 2005 - 09:41 pm
Tooki: The writer of the article lost my sympathies in several places but most assuredly on questions concerning abortion and homosexuality. The position of the Papacy on these topics is very strange in light of the clergy's own preference for celibacy. How can anyone take seriously a position on sexual matters offered by an organization of mental eunuchs? They choose not to be sexual themselves but at the same time think they have the right to prescribe sexual practice for others. That takes gall.

robert b. iadeluca
September 14, 2005 - 01:46 am
"Otto I of Germany, crowned Emperor by John XII in 962, learned the degradation of the papacy at first hand.

"In 963, with the support of the Transalpine clergy, Otto returned to Rome and summoned John to trial before an ecclesiastical council. Cardinals charged that John had taken bribes for consecrating bishops, had made a boy of ten a bishop, had committed adultery with his father's concubine and incest with his father's widow and her niece and had made the papal palace a very brothel.

"John refused to attend the council or to answer the charges. Instead he went out hunting. The council deposed him and unanimously chose Otto's candidate, a layman, as Pope Leo VIII (963-5).

"After Otto had returned to Germany John seized and mutilated the leaders of the Imperial party in Rome and had himself restored by an obedient council to the papacy (964).

"When John died (964) the Romans elected Benedict V. Ignoring Leo, Otto came down from Germany, deposed Benedict, and restored Leo, who thereupon officially recongnized the right of Otto and his Imperial successors to veto the election of any future pope.

"On Leo's death Otto secured the election of John XIII (965-72). Benedict VI (973-4) was imprisoned and strangled by a Roman noble.

"Bonifazio Francone, who made himself pope for a month, then fled to Constantinople with as much papal treasury as he could carry. Nine years later he returned, killed Pope John XIV (983-4), again appropriated the papal office and died peaceably in bed (985).

"The Roman Republic again raised its head, assumed authority, and chose Crescentius as consul. Otto III descended upon Rome with an irresistible army and a commission from the German preltes to end the chaos by making his chaplain Pope Gregory V (996-9).

"The young Emperor put down the republic, pardoned Crescentius, and went back to Germany. Crescentius at once re-established the Republic and deposed Gregory (997). Geregory excommunicated him but Crescentius laughed and arranged the election of John XVI as pope. Otto returned, deposed John gouged out his eyes, cut off his tongue and nose and paraded him through the streets of Rome on an ass, with his face to the tail. Crescentius and twelve Republican leaders were beheaded and their bodies were hung from the battlements of Sant' Angelo (998).

"Gregory resumed the papacy and died, probably of poison in 999. Otto replaced him with one of the most brilliant of all the popes."

Does history move in cycles? We are about to examine Gerbert, the brilliant pope. But was it necessary to have all that debauchery first? Is there perhaps a biological control of the progress of civilization?

Robby

3kings
September 14, 2005 - 03:02 am
Robby No, I don't think that insanity and debauchery necessarily leads on to sanity and advancement. Except that Papal life had sunk so low, the only way left was up....

In comparison with his predecessors Gerbert may appear brilliant. From later view points, he may appear a flawed individual. It is all relative, I think. ++ Trevor

tooki
September 14, 2005 - 05:20 am
Cycles of history! Really! Theories of cycles of history and/or cycles of civilization range from immensely scholarly to totally off the wall.

Let's begin with the scholarly: Arnold J. Toynbee (1889-1975, not to be confused with his Grandfather from the 19th century) authored, in 1961, a 12 volume work, "A Study of History," in which he attempted to prove that history moves in cycles. Here is an excerpt which answers your question:

"First the Dominant Minority attempts to hold force—against all right and reason—a position of inherited privilege which it has ceased to merit; and then the Proletariat repays injustice with resentment, fear with hate, and violence with violence when it executes its acts of secession. Yet the whole movement ends in positive acts of creation—and this on the part of all the actors in the tragedy of disintegration. The Dominant Minority creates a universal state, the Internal Proletariat a universal church, and the External Proletariat a bevy of barbarian war-bands".

Substitute more current labels and it sounds like something written today. Maybe after we are finished with "The Story of Civilization,"all 11 volumes, we can tackle Toynbee's 12 volumes..

Now, on to "Finger Prints of the Gods."

robert b. iadeluca
September 14, 2005 - 04:41 pm
Tooki:-How long do you expect me to live?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 14, 2005 - 06:34 pm
"Gerbert was born of lowly parentage near Anrillac in Auvergne (c.940), and at an early age entered a monastery there.

"At the abbot's suggestion, he went to Spain to study mathematics and in 970 Count Borel of Barcelona took him to Rome. Pope John XIII was impressed by the monk's learning and recommended him to Oto I.

"For a year Gerbert taught in Italy and at that time or later had Otto II among his pupils. Then he went to Reims to study logic in the cathedral school. Presently we find him head of the school (972-82).

"He taught an unusual variety of subjects including the classic poets. He wrote an excellent Latin and letters sometimes rivaling those of Sidonius. Wherever he went he collected books and spent his funds recklessly to have copies made of manuscripts in other libraries.

"Perhaps we owe to him the preservation of Cicero's orations. He led the Christian world in mathematics, introduced an early form of the 'Arabic' numerals, wrote on the abacus and the astrolabe, and composed a treatise of geometry. He invented a mechanical clock and an organ operaed by steam.

"So many were his scientific accomplishments that after his death he was reputed to have possessed magical powers."

Robby

Bubble
September 15, 2005 - 03:05 am
Robby, you are ageless and will be here always.

robert b. iadeluca
September 15, 2005 - 03:43 am
Hi Bubble!! It was so good to meet you last week. I really enjoyed chatting with you. Also good to see you back here on SofC.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 15, 2005 - 04:06 am
Here is the LATEST DECISION by the current papacy.

Robby

Justin
September 15, 2005 - 12:54 pm
Way to go, Benedict,baby. Get rid of 60% of the priests and the only source of growth in the clerical population. The priesthood will be wiped out in a couple of generations.

Éloïse De Pelteau
September 15, 2005 - 05:01 pm
GREAT PICTURES OF BUBBLE, MAL, PETA, ILLY, ROBBY IN NORTH CAROLINA

tooki
September 15, 2005 - 06:28 pm
Bubble, Eloise, thank you for sharing your charming photos of Bubble's visit. Everyone looks happy, relaxed, and has the look of intelligence that I assume all S. of C. participants have. Thank you for sharing.

tooki
September 15, 2005 - 06:35 pm
“Does history move in cycles?” asked Robby in post 8. It’s a reasonable question; the Roman Empire rose and fell as did all previous civilizations. We are now in a period of Church decline in S. of C. Soon begins the section on church reform and growth. And apparently the whole civilization of the middle Ages collapsed in the 13th century, otherwise there would be no Renaissance.

Here are more theorists:

Oswald Spengler (1880-1936), German philosopher, wrote, “The Decline of the West,” in 1918-1922, which argues that all cultures are subject to the same cycle of growth and decay in accordance with predetermined “historical destiny.” His views were espoused by the Nazis.

George Hegel (1770-1831), yet another depressing (or depressed) German philosopher, created a system for understanding history. Often called “Hegel’s Dialectic,” it involves a thesis, an antithesis, and a new synthesis, which becomes, then, a new thesis out of which more conflict arises.

Then there’s Karl Marx (1818-1883), born in Germany, but spending most of his life in England. Influenced by Hegel, he formulated a theory of conflict between capitalists and the working class which would result in political and economic revolution. He considered this an “historical inevitability.”

Finally, if you’re still with me, here’s a great article on Jared Diamond’s recent book, Collapse:How Societies Choose To Fail or succeed in which he advances the view that societies commit suicide by their ecological choices.

Justin
September 15, 2005 - 10:14 pm
There is a recognizabe businss cycle actuated by the interaction of supply and demand. Some economists even recognize a super cycle that over rides the more common supply and demand cycle.

Not so many years ago one could recognize relatively independent national business cycles. Today globalization has tended to neutralize the effects of national cycles.

During the Greek period from 750BCE till 343BCE the City -States responded to a super cycle phenomenon. The Greek home land is very rocky and not receptive to broad application of farming. As a result, population out ran food production. But each city state felt the effects of the resulting economic downturn in a different way and on a slightly different time table. Some city states adjusted by warfare. Others by colonizing. At the end of the period Alexander solved the problem by globalizing Greece.

robert b. iadeluca
September 16, 2005 - 04:11 am
The Reform of the Church

1049-54

robert b. iadeluca
September 16, 2005 - 04:32 am
"Three internal problems agitatd the Church at this time --

1 - Simony in the papacy and the episcopacy
2 - Marriage or concubinage in the secular clergy
3 - Sporadic incontinence among the monks.

"Simony - the sale of church offices or services -- was the ecclesiastical correlate of contemporary corruption in politics.

"Good people were one source of simony. So the mother of Gerbert of Nogent, anxious to elevate him to the Church, paid ecclesiastical authorities to make him a cathedral canon at eleven.

"A church council at Rome in 1099 mourned the frequency of such cases. As bishops in England, Germany, France and Italy administered profane as well as ecclesiastical affairs, and were feudally endowed with lands or villages or even cities to supply their necessary revenues, ambitious men paid secular powers great sums for such appointments and greedy potentates overrode all decencies to earn these bribes.

"In Narbonne a boy of ten was made archbishop on paying 100,000 solidi.

"Philip I of France consoled an unsuccessful applicant for an episcopal see with blithe counsel:-'Let me make my profit out of your rival, then you can try to get him degraded for simony and afterward we can see about satisfying him.'

"The French kings, following a tradition established by Charlemagne, regularly appointed the bishops of Sens, Reims, Lyons, Tours, and Bourges. Elsewhere in France the bishops were appointed by the dukes or counts.

"Many bishoprics became in the eleventh century the heriditary patrimony of noble families and were used as provision for bastards or younger sons.

"In Germany one baron possessed and transmitted eight bishoprics. A German cardinal alleged tht the simoniscal buyers of sees and benefices had sold the marble facings of churches, even the riles from their roofs, to reimburse themselves for the cost of their appointments.

"Such appointees were men of the world. Many lived in luxury, engaged in war, allowed bribery in episcopal courts, named relatives to ecclesiastical posts and worshiped Mammon with individed lyalty. Pope Innocent III would say of an archbishop of Narbonne that he had a purse where his heart should have been.

"The purchase of sees became so usual that practical men accepted it as normal.

"Reformers cried out that Simon Magus had captured the Church."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 16, 2005 - 05:08 am
How important is HISTORY?

Robby

Scrawler
September 16, 2005 - 11:43 am
Very interesting article. For the past three years I've been studying the American Civil War for the trilogy I am writing. I found the study of the American Consitution and the admendments fasinating. It was an up-hill battle to get Congress to pass the 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendments. People like the Secretary of the Treasury under Lincoln, Salmon P. Chase berated his friends and enemies in Congress to vote for these amendments. In the end what he and others wanted was quite different from what they got.

3kings
September 16, 2005 - 05:28 pm
I grinned at the finding in that article on History. I didn't know who was the rebel general at Yorktown, either. I didn't even remember there was a battle of Yorktown.

But then, I wonder if any here know who was the Polish general whose troops captured the Abbey at Monte Cassino, and thus opened the way for the American army to enter Rome? Remember we read some of the history of that Abbey in the last few weeks ?

I ask these questions, not to demonstrate that I know more than others, ( I most certainly don't !), but merely to point out that much of what is presented as 'historical' data, is irrelevant to understanding the growth of Civilization.

Such as a list of the Kings and Queens of England, (with appropriate dates ) that we were required to memorise at school. None of it gave us any understanding of what was really important in the English experience. ++ Trevor.

Like Henry Ford, every one must feel that such 'history' is bunk. +++ Trevor

robert b. iadeluca
September 16, 2005 - 05:34 pm
Yorktown was where Washington (with the aid of the French fleet) won the final decisive battle which led to the formation of the United States of America. It was not a minor skirmish. I have visited those embattlements a number of times.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 16, 2005 - 06:07 pm
Referring to our Heading, is THIS where we are headed?

Robby

Justin
September 16, 2005 - 06:57 pm
Trevor: I am having trouble recalling the name of the Polish general but I think Freyberg had the second New Zealanders at Cassino. Kesselring ran the German show at Anzio and Cassino. Robby can tell me if Truscott was the US guy or not. I do know that the Pols made the final breakthrough. I did a paper on the destruction at Cassino some years ago and I remember the general's name rhymes with Anzio. Memories are tricky are they not?

Casino was not a skirmish. It took us 8 months to break through and we had control of the sea, air, and the land south of Cassino. Anzio was a Churchillian bust but it was a nice try. Kesselring stopped Marc Clark cold.

The Yorktown thing was the final battle of the Revolution. We didn't win many-less than a half dozen- but Yorktown we won with the help of the French De Grasse.

Traude S
September 16, 2005 - 07:54 pm
TREVOR, Americans of Polish descent are justly proud of General Casimir Pulaski, the "father of the American Cavalry", whose monument stands in Washington, D.C., a hero in the Revolutionary War.

Jan Sand
September 16, 2005 - 07:56 pm
As I have remarked before, I almost exclusively lurk this discussion as my temperament is usually unsuited to remaining civil when the corrosive influences of faith on civilization are brought to the fore.

But occasionally material appears which, it seems to me, is significant and important to be diseminated as to the destructive element of faith is integrated with the worst elements of social character to disintegrate the best elements of a society I had hoped would arise from the ideal of American democracy and logical intelligent thought.

This article from The Nation might be dismissed as the pessimistic nightmare of a distrought mind but current events chillingly seem to confirm what it proposes.

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20051003/pollitt

Traude S
September 16, 2005 - 08:17 pm
JAN, many thanks for the link.

In this very connection the recent op-eds by Thomas Friedman, reporting for the NYT from Singapore, are pertinent IMHO.

tooki
September 17, 2005 - 10:00 am
I read “Nation,” Katha Pollitt and Thomas Friedman sporadically. Not regularly because for me their hand wringing, finger pointing, and doom crying isn’t helpful for analyzing events. I can find enough in the 11th century (today is Saturday, so it must be the 11th century) to fret about. And I have all the centuries from the 11th to the 21st to think about why things are like they are, not as they should be. That’s not said quite right, but you get the drift.

As an aid in an attempt to take a long view, I found the following article useful. Nothing centers the mind quite as much as the contemplation of one’s own demise. The article helps one to sagely anticipate the eventual extinction of the United States, and for that matter, everything else.

Why Europe Chooses Extinction

robert b. iadeluca
September 17, 2005 - 10:41 am
The Great Eastern Schism

1054

robert b. iadeluca
September 17, 2005 - 10:55 am
"It was in St. Leo's pontificate that Greek and Latin Christianity were finally divorced.

"While Western Europe was shrouded in the darkness, misery and ignorance of the ninth and tenth centuries, the Eastern Empire, under the Macedonian emperors (867-1057), recovered some of the territory it had lost to the Arabs, reasserted its leadership in south Italy and experienced a new flowering of literature and art.

"The Greek Church drew strength and pride from the revived wealth and power of the Byzantine state, won Russia, Bulgaria and Serbia to the Eastern observance and resented more sharply than ever the claims of a debased and impoverished papacy to the ecclessiastical monarchy of the Christian world. To the Greeks of this age the Germans, Franks, and Anglo-Saxons of the contemporary West seemed crude barbarians, an illiterate and violent laity led by a worldly and corrupt episcopate. The papal rejection of the Byzantine emperor for the king of the Franks, papal appropriation of the exarchate of Ravenna, the papal coronation of a rival Roman emperor, the papal drive into Greek Italy -- these galling political events, and not the slight diversities of creed, severed Christendom into East and West."

"To the Greeks of this age the Germans, Franks, and Anglo-Saxons of the contemporary West seemed crude barbarians." Isn't this what the Muslims are saying of the Western culture these days?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 17, 2005 - 06:38 pm
Another ARTICLE fitting in with our discussion of "The Age of Faith."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 17, 2005 - 07:35 pm
Again, the familiar topic of CLASS in the move toward civilization.

Robby

Fifi le Beau
September 17, 2005 - 09:34 pm
Jan, thanks for the Nation article. I have been away for four months, and when I returned home, I had a stack of magazines so high... I have no hope of ever reading them all, including the Nation.

I believe Katha Pollit's concern about the turn to religious fundamentalism in the U.S. is somewhat overwrought. They seem to be everywhere, but that is because the press has found them and put them on the cover of magazines like Newsweek and given them exposure they could only dream about for years. The Eastern establishment press has declared them to be much more powerful than they actually are.

I live in the bible belt, and most of the churches are more social gatherings than rabid fundamentalists. They are outnumbered by those who never go to church, and their power and influence is so overblown that they fear us much more than we fear them. Being independent by nature and following no man or creed easily so.... We are not organized, and they are.

It was Durant who said, "The political machine triumphs because it is a united minority acting against a divided majority."

A national emergency such as Pollit writes about could and most likely would unite us, and the fundamentalists could then proclaim that the tribulations had come, at least for them, just as they had been predicting for two thousand years.

Fifi

tooki
September 18, 2005 - 05:54 am
This quote is from Robby's NYT article: "Doubt,like faith, has to be learned." By the learned aspect of doubting he means skepticism. The philosophical sense of skepticism is that no fact or principle can be known for certain.

Are there, then, a bunch of philosophers in this group?

Here's the whole paragraph; it merits repeating:

"Doubt, like faith, has to be learned. It is a skill. But the curious thing about skepticism is that its adherents, ancient and modern, have so often been proselytizers. In reading them, I've often wanted to ask, "Why do you care?" Their skepticism offers no good answer to that question. And I don't have one for myself. When my daughter and I discuss her budding thoughts about the cosmos and morality, or when my students come to my office inspired or baffled by a book, something quickens within me. The Greeks spoke of eros, the Christians of agape and caritas. I don't know what to call it, I just know it is there. It is a kind of care. It is directed toward others, but also, perhaps, toward that young man lying on his bed, opening the Bible for the very first time."

robert b. iadeluca
September 18, 2005 - 07:49 am
Is THIS what it means to be civilized?

Robby

Fifi le Beau
September 18, 2005 - 08:32 am
Tookie, I am certainly not a philosopher, but doubt has never played much of a role in my decision. When the realization comes that I do not believe one word of what I'm reading, there is no doubt for me. That does not mean that I won't investigate why someone built that straw horse and put it forward as a live invigorating answer to all forward movement for the human race.

If it does not register on all five senses as realistic, I'm not buying.

I am a realist, that many times wished life could be like a fairytale and that I didn't have to face the harshness reality can bring. To deny reality denies life, nature, and the circumstance of our existence. If everyone lived in fairyland, nothing would ever be accomplished and no forward movement would be possible.

Kierkegaard said, "Life can only be understood backwards, but it must be lived forward." We are looking at life backward here in SOC, but I for one am going forward with the knowledge that we have acquired, and much of it is being discarded as unrealistic to me, especially the religions and how they began. If people carry all the baggage religion has imposed on humanity, they will miss the train that carries humanity forward.

Fifi

Fifi le Beau
September 18, 2005 - 10:03 am
Tookie, you accuse the Nation article of hand wringing, finger pointing, and doom crying, and then give us a link to the netherworld of the internet where an anonymous egotistical plagurist not only steals the writing of others, they even steal their name, and then proceed with hand wringing, finger pointing, and doom crying.

This article is hardly philosophy and certainly not original. These are neo conservative talking points which can be found in forums all over the web, television, radio, and so called 'think tanks' such as AEI, Heritage, and other Septic tanks.

The anonymous author was not that original (I've read it before by other anonymous authors) but the readers on that forum were not only original but funny and better writers. They gave me my first good laugh of the day, and for that alone it was worth reading.

The anonymous Spengler like all premeditated con artists and propagandists may wish fervently for the demise of Europe and America with his anti-western screed, but his desires may backfire on him and those he represents.

Stay tuned.......

Fifi

robert b. iadeluca
September 18, 2005 - 10:47 am
Feudalism and Chivalry

600-1200

robert b. iadeluca
September 18, 2005 - 10:58 am
Please check the GREEN quotes in the Heading. These will indicate where we are in the volume and the direction in which we are going.

"In the six centuries tht followed the death of Justinian, a remarkable collaboration of circumstances slowly effected a basic transformation of economic life in the West European world.

"Certain conditions already noted came together to prepare for feudalism. As the cities of Italy and Gaul became unsafe during the German invasions, aristocrats moved out to their rural villas and surrounded themselves with agricultural dependents, 'client' families, and military aides.

"Monasteries whose monks tilled the soil and practiced handicrafts accentuated the centrifugal movement toward half-isolated economic units in the countryside.

"Roads injured by war, neglected by poverty, and endangered by highwaymen, could no longer maintain adequate communication and exchange.

"State revenues declined as commerce contracted and industry fell. Impoverished governments could no longer provide protection for life, property, and trade.

"The obstruction of commerce compelled the villas to seek economic self-sufficiency. Many manufactured articles formerly bought from the cities were -- from the third century onward -- produced on the great estates.

"In the fifth century the letters of Sidonius Apollinaris show us rural lords living in luxury on spacious holdings tilled by a semiservile tenantry. They are already a feudal aristocracy, possessing their own judiciary and soldiery, and differing from the later brons chiefly in knowing how to read."

We now arrive at that point in history which is the source of so many novels read by both child and adult. Maybe we will now get to know what actually transpired.

Robby

Justin
September 18, 2005 - 03:55 pm
We have come to the Great east-west split. It's too bad our friend MeriJo is not here to share it with us.

In anticipation of the event,one of my daughters and I attended a Greek Mass and a Latin Mass to see divergencies for ourselves. The differences are mainly those of ritual. The Latin priests are clean shaven while the Greeks wear a beard. The Latins use a little incense;the Greeks have a censor going all the time. The Latins say Mass occasionally on side altars dedicated to Mary and Joseph while the Greeks address the founders with incense burning and prayer. The Latins prefer to sit at Mass while the Greeks favor standing.

There are some social differences. One in particular strikes me as noteworthy. Greek priests like women, they marry and raise families and try to keep the race (human that is) growing. Latins on the other hand seem to prefer celibacy and little boys.

Durant says the major reason for the split was more political than ritual. The Greeks thought they were superior to the Latins in morality, wealth, and power, while the Latins thought they were in charge because they were able to move in on the Greeks in southern Italy, crown a Roman emperor in opposition to the Byzantine emperor, and capture Ravenna.

While the position of the Papacy has not changed on things like celibacy and excesses, most of the other more important elements in the split have changed. Eastern wealth and power has declined and Islam has captured all or most of the people and lands the Byzantines called their own in the eleventh century. The residue of the split in 2005 is the elements of the ritual and celibacy. Oh yes, and "filioque" in the creed which I read as a question. What Son,or Son of What, or perhaps, Whose Son?

robert b. iadeluca
September 19, 2005 - 03:48 am
"The same factors that paved the way for feudalism between the third century and the sixth established it between the sixth and the ninth.

"Merovingian and Carolingian kings paid their generals and administrators with grants of land. In the ninth century these fiefs became hereditary and semi-independent through the weakness of the Carolingian kings.

"The Saracen, Norse and Magyar invasions of the eighth, ninth, and tenth centuries repeated and cemented the results of the German invasions six centuries before. Central protection failed, the local baron or bishop organized a localized order and defense and remained possessed of his own force and court.

"Since the invaders were often mounted, defenders who could afford a horse were in demand. Cavalry became more important than infantry. Just as in early Rome a class of equaites -- men on horseback -- had taken form between patrician and plebes, so in France, Norman England, and Christian Spain a class of mounted knights grew up between the duke or baron and the peasantry.

"The people did not resent these developments. In an atmosphere of terror, when attack might come at any time, they craved military organization. They built their homes as near to the baronial castle of fortified monastery as they could.

"They readily gave allegiance and service to a lord -- i.e. a law-ward -- or to a duke -- i.e. one who could lead. We must imagne their terror to understand their subjection. Freemen who could no longer protect themselves offered their land or labor to some strong man in return for shelter and support. In such cases of 'commendation' the baron usually assigned to 'his man' a tract to be held as a 'precarium' on a lease revocable by the donor at any time. This precarious tenure became the usual form of serf possession of land.

"Feudalism was the economic subjection and military allegiance of a man to a superior in return for economic organization and military protection."

Any comments about feudalism?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 19, 2005 - 04:03 am
Once again we learn more about the present by looking at HISTORY.

Robby

tooki
September 19, 2005 - 05:37 am
Margarito of Arezzo (c. 1260)

tooki
September 19, 2005 - 05:46 am
Margarito of Arezzo's St. Francis

Scrawler
September 19, 2005 - 11:14 am
Justin: If you really want to see a difference in the two churches, go to a Greek wedding but be prepred to stay there for hours. A Greek marriage in the church is full of pomp and circumstance and very symbolic with the crowns etc. It truly is a sight to see.

Justin
September 19, 2005 - 01:13 pm
Does anyone remember the story behind "Tables for Ladies" in bars in the thirties. It think it came about because men thought ladies would not be comfortable sitting on a bar stool with one foot on the bar rail and in close proximity to a spitoon but the concept is probably more deep seated than that. Any help?

Thanks Scrawler. I will look for a Greek wedding to crash.

Justin
September 19, 2005 - 01:24 pm
Robby: Sometimes we have to stop to smell the flowers. The schism is an event that we should not pass to easily. I know we can go back but we also slipped over Hildebrand who was the most important Pope in Medieval times. He was not one of the run of the mill whore mongers of this papal period but a moral giant. I must run for a doctor's appointment at the moment. (what else do we elders do) but when I return I will post about these significant topics.

Joan W. Read Tom Freidman to day on Hey Math. It's a great idea.

robert b. iadeluca
September 19, 2005 - 02:47 pm
Justin:-I base my rate of speed in printing text on the interest shown by the participants. No one (including you) appeared to be much interested in the paragraphs being posted so I moved on and, as you said, skipped portions. I can only determine interest by the reactions to what is being posted. In all deference to myself, typing long paragraphs is hard work and if nobody says anything referring to what I posted, then I move on.

Robby

3kings
September 19, 2005 - 06:15 pm
"Feudalism was the economic subjection and military allegiance of a man to a superior in return for economic organization and military protection."

If one thinks about it, one soon recognises that todays Nation States are still run essentially on the Feudal model.

"allegiance of a man to a superior in return for economic organization." This sounds like the factory floor of a motor company, the manufacturing plant of an armaments firm, the local supermarket, or some government office.

As for military protection, it seems that in those times, there was a small coterie of Knights, as today there are small groups of professional military, who in times of crisis set to and organise an army of citizens. The citizens are the guys and gals who do the actual fighting, just like the serfs of earlier years.

All things change, but remain the same. ++ Trevor

tooki
September 19, 2005 - 08:23 pm
It’s not easy talking about feudalism because historians disagree about what it means, covers and excludes. As a construct it didn’t make its appearance until long after the middle Ages. One source says the word ‘feudalism’ was invented in the 17th century by combining Germanic words. Another source says it was invented in the 18th century and used by radicals as the term for the old regime they wanted to overthrow. Marx also used the term for the pre-capitalist stage of history.

Historians persist in using the term because it seems to be a handy label for a political movement in history, regardless of it being an artificial word. It’s hard to imagine the resulting chaos if the word was declared outlawed by some committee or other.

Durant’s use of the word and description of what it entails seems as good as any. And he is careful to disclaim any medieval universality for feudalism. He will be talking “chiefly of the France and England of the 11th and 12th centuries.”

This group touched on the origins of feudalism earlier where there were signs that as Rome became increasingly dangerous the aristocrats fled to their large farms and other folks flocked to them for protection. It wasn’t as though anyone said, “I think I’ll be a feudalist.”

tooki
September 19, 2005 - 08:40 pm
This site is divided into architecture, painting, history. If you stick with it it furnishes a nice overview of architecture and painting from the early middle ages to contemporary times. I found the increasingly lifelike paintings especially informative as indicating changing views of humanity.

Serbian Monastery of Studenica

JoanK
September 19, 2005 - 09:12 pm
"allegiance of a man to a superior in return for economic organization." I remember reading that while the man owed his lord a portion of the food he grew, the lord was supposed to stockpile some to feed his men in times of scarcity. I don't know if that was always true.

Justin
September 19, 2005 - 11:21 pm
Sorry, Robby. I am tuned to your wave length and tend to move with you.You do an outstanding job in guiding us and I know you take cues from us to indicate interest. We probably failed to indicate interest in this section of Durant.I don't want to be out of step with you although I suppose, we could tolerate a little deviation. This is an area that Merijo specialised in and would love to talk about. I hope she is lurking.

Hildebrand, as a very young man was chief advisor to Pope Nicholas 11. It was he who ended the power of the Germans and the nobility to elect Popes. He gave the power of Papal election to the college of Cardinals and there the power has remained.The current Benedict was electd by the college with all the pomp and ceremony we witnessed on television.

When Hildebrand became Pope Gregory Vll, he tried to relieve the nobility of their power to invest bishops. Bishops along with investiture received land and revenues from kings to whom they swore allegiance. So the struggle between Gregory Vll and Henry, the Roman emperor, for the right of investiture was not an easy conflict. Gregory as Pope, saw himself as the vice regent of God and as such declared he had the right to depose bad kings and to reject choices made by earthly rulers.

robert b. iadeluca
September 20, 2005 - 03:11 am
"Feudalism cannot be rigidly defined for it had a hundred variations in time and place.

"Its origins lay in Italy and Germany but its most characteristic development came in France. In Britain it may have begun as the enserfment of Britons by Anglo-Saxon conquerors but for the most part it was there a Gallic importation from Normandy.

"It never matured in northern Italy or Christian Spain.

"In the Eastern Empire the great landowners never developed military or judicial independence nor that hierarchy of fealties which seemed in the West essential to feudalism.

"Large sectors of Europe's peasantry remained unfeudalized -- the shepherds and ranchers of the Balkans -- eastern Italy -- Spain -- the vine growers of western Germany and southern France -- the sturdy farmers of Sweden and Norway -- the Teutonic pioneers beyond the Elbe -- the mountaineers of the Carpathians, the Alps, the Apennines, and the Pyrenees.

"It was not to be expected that a continent so physically and climatically diverse should have a uniform economy. Even within feudalism conditions of contract and status varied from nation to nation, from manor to manor, from time to time.

"Our analysis will apply chiefly to the France and England of the eleventh and twelfth centuries."

Your comments, please?

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
September 20, 2005 - 03:30 am
THE FEUDAL SYSTEM

robert b. iadeluca
September 20, 2005 - 03:41 am
I thought I would throw in a couple of well known tales of feudal knights so that we might compare them with what Durant will tell us about feudalism. Here is a tale about GALAHAD.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 20, 2005 - 03:49 am
This is the SONG OF ROLAND, one of the (if not the) most famous knight in France. My first wife was French and my second son was named after him.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 20, 2005 - 04:00 am
We all know that DON QUIXOTE is a fictional Spanish "knight" written about by Cervantes, but could it be possible that the knights in the other tales were also fictional?

Robby

Justin
September 20, 2005 - 12:41 pm
We have all been concerned about sexual abuse by priests in recent years and many of us have thought celibacy was an important cause of the problem. The church has not always insisted upon a vow of celibacy for its priesthood.

In fact it was not until 1059 and the Lateran Council under Nicholas ll and Hildebrand (later Gregory Vll) that marriage among priests was deemed sinful. The Pope excommunicated any priest who kept a wife or concubine. He forbade christians to attend Mass said by priests with wives. The rule could not be enforced. It was withdrawn and then reinstated by Gregory in 1074.

Many priests abandoned their calling rather than give up their wives. They said the decrees made unreasonable demands upon human nature and predicted that enforcement would promote secret promiscuity. The Lateran Council in 1215 under Innocent lll issued a final condemnation and clerical marriage slowly disappeared.

Local Bishops tended to protect their married clergy from the decree and some bishops were excommunicated for that reason.

Can you imagine the hardship visited upon the wives when this decree was promulgated? They were simply abandoned. It is as difficult to understand the reasoning of the papacy in promoting such unnatural acts in Medieval times as it is to grasp their message today.

If Merijo were here she would tell us to put ourselves in the time period so we can better understand the message. But I can't grasp the message even today. The promiscuity predicted by Medieval priests forced to give up their wives is with us today.

tooki
September 20, 2005 - 04:07 pm
Cheer up, Justin. You may not have to put yourself into the time frame of the 12th century.

Married Priests

It appears that the Roman Catholic Church may not have a choice.

robert b. iadeluca
September 20, 2005 - 04:43 pm
We are in the section of Feudalism and Chivalry. Any comments regarding the previous posts on this topic?

If not, I will move past that.

Robby

MeriJo
September 20, 2005 - 04:55 pm
Hello Everyone:

I came home this morning after three weeks and one day of hospitalization. It is so nice to be home.

The surgery went well and I can walk on my right leg pain-free, but other things did not go well at all. There were times I wished I had not had the surgery. All in all it was a remarkable experience - in fact in some ways, unbelieveable, but these events were so extraordinary I thought I should remember them. Instead, I found myself wanting to forget each of them.

Thanks so much for your kind wishes and good prayers. I truly appreciated them.

JoanK
September 20, 2005 - 05:00 pm
MARIJO: We are so glad to see you back. I hope it will go better for you from now on.

robert b. iadeluca
September 20, 2005 - 05:16 pm
Welcome back, Merijo!! Maybe if you keep your mind on our activities here, it will help to ease the pain. But participate at whatever rate is comfortable for you.

Robby

Justin
September 20, 2005 - 05:31 pm
Robby: A severe shortage of priests coupled with public pressure to solve the abuse problem, may have an effect on the American hierarchy but such probably will not alter the Vatican position one iota. It is interesting that they are willing to ordain married protestants to alleviate the shortage of priests. Some churches have closed and others are kept open but served by traveling priests. I have seen data indicating a lack of growth in the American catholic population. Africa is the growth continent.

Justin
September 20, 2005 - 05:35 pm
MeriJo: How nice it is to see you back and to know you have two working legs. You have been sorely missed in this conversation.

Bubble
September 21, 2005 - 03:36 am
Feudal system... Robin Hood, the hero of childhood... Paysans looking for protection, a back to lean on in times of trouble. Isn't that what some countries feel toward US these day? looking for help and protection, listening to directives?

Welcome back Merijo!

Malryn (Mal)
September 21, 2005 - 04:59 am
Hi, everyone. Some of you know I'm in Pennsylvania in the Poconos at my son's, hunting for a low-income place to live at the moment. Being here in close proximity to an active family with little children is a real change for me. They are Catholic, and my 5 year old granddaughter -- she'll be 6 October first -- has begun her Catechism study at the church. Not only does she do this, she is in a gymnastics class and a cheerleading class ( ! ) as well as public school kindergarten, and runs interference for her 18 month old brother at home.

MeriJo, I'm sorry you had health problems, and hope your road will be easier now.

If things ever settle down for me I'll be back to talk about Durant. My daughter did send me The Age of Faith, so I have that. The Renaissance is about 500 miles away down south with all the rest of my books and possessions, including my cat. I came here with a hundred bucks in my pocket, and only two suitcases and the clothes on my back. Still haven't unpacked anything because I should be out of here before October twelfth when my family is going to Florida for a couple of weeks of vacation.

Mal

Scrawler
September 21, 2005 - 10:05 am
Married priests is one of just many points that separate the Greek church from the Catholic church. I have several Greek uncles who are both married and are priests. One of them, my grandmother's brother, became a bishop in Athens in the 1920s.

Traude S
September 21, 2005 - 11:12 am
MERIJO, I am so glad to see you back. Before your hip replacement surgery I had planned to e-mail good wishes -- but failed. I rue my sin of omission.

Having had that surgery myself, I know that recovery and adjustment to limitations take time. But you made it, so more power to you!

MeriJo
September 21, 2005 - 01:22 pm
Thank you everyone for your nice welcome back. It's great to be home.

MeriJo
September 21, 2005 - 01:44 pm
Re: Married priests who were Episcopalian. I don't know of any other denomination who had priests decide to be Catholic and asked to continue as priests in the Catholic Church - and stay married. There are a few of these priests although not many. There are some requirements before they are accepted as priests. I think they are not re-ordained, however, as the Sacrament of Holy Orders is like Baptism. Once is for life.

There are quite a few new converts each year among Catholics in the U. S. I know our parish has a large class each year. Approximately, 75 to a hundred new converts.

Heaven knows what happened during medieval times with regard to "renegade" priests. Essentially, each man got a notion and followed up on it. If he knew it was wrong for him to violate his vows, he just may have rationalized it away. Who's to know?

When a man decides to become a candidate for the priesthood, depending on the order he joins, he has many months, even years, to determine whether or not he wants to take a vow of chastity (celibacy). The Jesuits spend thirteen years (or did) before taking final vows. Diocesan and some orders of monks are postulants or in the novitiate from anywhere between six and eight years. No candidate just suddenly takes final vows. There are years of study.

And even after that there is a process called laicization for which a priest may petition to become a layperson again.

In recent years candidates for the priesthood were not thoroughly examined as possible good prospects for such an arduous life. There was no doubt a diminution of the necessary qualifications and so we have seen many leave the priesthood. Within the last decade qualifications have become more stringent and exacting and ought to impress the candidate whether or not the life is suitable for him.

Justin
September 21, 2005 - 02:12 pm
MaryJo:It is so good to have you back. Two thoughts, Prior to 1059 and perhaps 1215, married priests were not renegades. They were very responsible members of the Community who took vows to a wife as well as to mother church. The hardships experienced by these women when they were abandoned must have been unbearable. When Popes Nicholas ll through Innocent lll forced these men to break their marriage vows they were degrading the vow process.

Second thought: you seem to be suggesting that Protestant ministers who are accepted as married priests in Roman Catholicism do not take Holy Orders. Is that what you are saying? The news article did not seem to imply that .

robert b. iadeluca
September 21, 2005 - 04:07 pm
Any comments about Durant's previous text regarding Feudalism and Chivalry?

Robby

MeriJo
September 21, 2005 - 04:28 pm
Feudalism:

It is interesting that England and France seemed to be the dominant countries that developed a feudal system. It seemed fair for the nobles, but very unfair for the serfs and others who did the work that brought wealth to the nobility.

I recall reading somewhere that the feudal system also developed as a way to protect the manor and the lands and the people of the fiefdom. There are loads of mountains in northern Italy which may have proved natural fortifications against marauders. Also, there may have been little in the way of agriculture there - and other endeavors took place.

Northern Italy Resisted Feudalism

MeriJo
September 21, 2005 - 04:38 pm
Justin:

I'll have to research those popes and their edicts regarding married priests. I can make no comment there.

As for the Protestant priests not receiving Holy Orders in the Catholic Church, I believe this is so. It would be redundant. In accepting a Protestant priest/minister who had been ordained in his previous church, he would receive a conditional Sacrament of Holy Orders - e.g. "If you have not been previously ordained, I now ordain you as a priest of the Catholic Church." He probably would receive a conditional Sacrament of Baptism as well. This would be to have all requirements in proper order to become both a Catholic and a Catholic priest. I recall this information and have not verified it recently, but Holy Orders may be received only once in one's life.

MeriJo
September 21, 2005 - 07:54 pm
The following url is the best I could do researching those popes and their edicts against married priests. There are specific paragraphs re Nicholas II. Couldn't find Innocent III.

I think one can determine that many of the men just decided to quit being priests. I looked up a lot of the things you mentioned via Google. I am guessing that when "push came to shove" these married priests preferred being married.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03481a.htm

Remember, too, that Popes carried a lot of temporal power in those days. Things were still evolving and some Popes no doubt sought to capitalize on this power of theirs.

robert b. iadeluca
September 21, 2005 - 08:09 pm
Any other comments about our current topic of Feudalism and Chivalry?

Robby

3kings
September 21, 2005 - 08:48 pm
Robby you may think you are fighting a loosing battle, re your repeated requests, but I'm sure tomorrow will see you move us all forward. A moderator's life can have its problems.... ( BG ) ++ Trevor

mabel1015j
September 21, 2005 - 09:31 pm
Robbie - you used the word "chivalry" in your last two requests for comments, i recall reading at some point in my past that Eleanor of Acquitane was influential in the development of knights more pleasant behavior, especially toward women, that she encouraged and rewarded knights who behaved "properly" and had enough influence to encourage other royalty to do the same. The inference was that she was sort of a "mother" of chivalry.

Justin warned me off my other comment on Eleanor as being too early to talk about her, are we there yet? (tongue in chk).........jean

Justin
September 21, 2005 - 10:29 pm
Hildebrand was the instigator of this celibacy concept. He persuaded Nicholas ll and in the Lateran council of 1059 an edict was issued to excommunicate any priest who kept a wife or concubine. He also forbid Christians to attend Mass said by a married priest. The bishops rersisted as did the priests and the edict died. After serving eight Popes, Hildebrand became Gregory Vll and in a synod of 1074 he renewed the edict. But clerical marriage died slowly and it was not until the Lateran of 1274 under Innocent lll, that the practice disappeared. Priests all during this period warned that secret little sexual adventures would be the result of this edict. How right they were.

Justin
September 21, 2005 - 10:38 pm
What should we do about the Investiture crisis? Should we just ignore it and push on into feudalism? You are the leader, Robby. I will do as you direct. You've been kind enough to let us talk about the initiation of celibacy and I appreciate your indulgence.

robert b. iadeluca
September 22, 2005 - 03:30 am
What we should do, Justin, is to follow the text as Durant gives it to us. What we should not do is go a period of time ignoring his current topic, which signals to me that there is no interest and a desire to go forward -- then when I move forward, suddenly finding that there is an interest in that past topic after all. In the meantime I will have moved forward and there is a cognitive dissonance (lovely psychological phrase!)

Please keep in mind that you folks are, in a sense, more the leader than I am. The content of your postings indicate your interest. Lack of postings indicate no interest. Suddenly there was a desire to go back to the religious sub-topics. Practically nothing was said about the sub-topics which Durant brought up. There was no battle. I just simply went on to other responsibilities in my life, made no new postings, and waited for you all to catch up to Durant.

I am particularly interested in reactions to Posts 42, 44, 45, 58, 60, 61, and 62.

Reminder:-I am leaving early Monday morning for the Las Vegas Bash and will not be back until the weekend. Wonderful time for you to talk about sugar and spice and everything nice as well as frogs and snails and puppy dogs' tails.

Robby

Rich7
September 22, 2005 - 09:19 am
Chivalry: Oxford American Dictionary:- The medieval knightly system with its religious, moral and social code. Derived from the Old French "chevalerie" meaning horseman.

I'm fascinated with word origins.

Rich

JoanK
September 22, 2005 - 12:13 pm
Hey, Rich!! Howya been? We've missed your chivalry.

Fifi le Beau
September 22, 2005 - 12:23 pm
The question of how and why feudalism developed, has been played out in large and small ways since the beginning of time by peoples who have been invaded by others who are strangers, who don't speak their language, or understand or care about their culture and are mainly interested in acquiring territory and killing or enslaving the remaining inhabitants.

What would we do in similar circumstances? Most likely we would band together to protect ourselves and our families. This happened all over Europe during the dark ages, in different degrees. The invaders did not cover the entire area, but only swaths of territory, and many escaped the full force of the invasion, but still suffered from the effects of the disintegration of the economic system.

The Knights became the policemen for these huge feudal estates. The fact that they became noted for 'chivalry' was probably because women were always the first victims after survival of the initial onslaught. Since the Knights arose from the people who flocked to the Baron's estate they would have wanted to protect their mother, wife, or sister. St. Patrick said of his capture and enslavement by the Irish, that it was the women who suffered most when taken as the spoils of raids. He saw their suffering first hand and to him it seemed almost unbearable.

Once the Baron got his hands on the property of those who gathered for protection, and then formed the Knights as a police and protection force, he gradually set up his own little kingdom and became so powerful that some of those estates or parts of them still exist today. The titles they took may have been eliminated by legislation, but are still used in circles where the worship of power, money, and titles has never gone out of style.

Baron, duke, duchess, lord etc. all came out of this system, and many still use their titles.... legal or not. Rich Americans seem to have a fascination with these groups, and they are feted on private estates from New York to Los Angles, and in places like Palm Beach they use their title to spend a few months in the sun with the rich who have 'title envy'.

Europe is no longer ruled by Kings, Queens, or Emperors, but as figureheads some still cling to the wealth they took from the people they ruled over and like in England, remain on the public dole. The fact that they got their position by having a murderer on the family tree seems to escape them as heirheads in waiting.

Fifi

Rich7
September 22, 2005 - 01:04 pm
Hi, Joan. Thanks for the welcome. Been very busy getting used to living in Arizona. To a New Englander it's like moving to the moon!

Fifi, Well said. Being someone who enjoys words, I especially liked "title envy" and "heirheads." Clever stuff.

Rich

Justin
September 22, 2005 - 03:15 pm
Nice to see your stuff again, Rich. Moving from New England to Arizona is like moving from Heaven to Hell, from grass to sand, from four seasons to one season. There are names for the four seasons in Arizona but they are all hot. There is hot,hotter,hottest, and damn hottest. Good Luck.

Justin
September 22, 2005 - 03:32 pm
OK, Robby. This stuff we have been posting about, as you know, is part of Durant. I thought it was significant. Things like the beginnings of Celibacy and the end of clerical marriage, the start of the election of Popes by a college of Cardinals, the beginning of papal control of bishops, the end of the Roman emperor's power to invest bishops and the transferance of their lands and gold to the papacy. If you wish to call this stuff "sugar and spice", that's your call. I think it is significant. Have a nice trip, be sure to buy a round trip ticket,and don't put all your money in the slots. We will miss you.

Rich7
September 22, 2005 - 04:33 pm
Thanks, Justin, for the welcome back. Thanks, also for the heat story. The joke here is that this is a dry heat, but so is a blowtorch!

On the division of the Church into East and West, I recently visited a Greek Orthodox monastery and picked up some of their literature to get a different perspective of the break. From the Orthodox perspective all got along well since Constantine when there were only five patriarchs.- one for each important city in the empire: Jerusalem, Alexanderia, Antioch, Constantinople, and Rome. All took council with one another, and there was no person who ruled the church.

"In the ninth century, however, the East and the West began to drift apart. The patriach of Rome began to introduce new and foreign ideas into the Faith. One of these was the supremacy of the Roman patriarch. The other four patriarchs unsuccessfully pleaded with the patriarch of Rome not to introduce this new idea."*

In 1054 the Roman Church officially severed itself from the rest of the church.

Kind of a different perspective, huh? In the eyes of the Orthodox, Rome left the Catholic church and set up its own independent operation. (Beating Henry VIII by a few centuries.)

Who is right?

What is the definition of right in this case?

Food for thought.

Rich

  • Quoting from their literature.
  • robert b. iadeluca
    September 22, 2005 - 05:21 pm
    FEUDAL ORGANIZATION

    The Slave

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 22, 2005 - 05:30 pm
    "In those lands and times society consisted of freemen, serfs, and slaves.

    "Freemen included nobles, clerics, professional soldiers, practitioners of the professions, most merchants and artisans, and peasants who owned their land with little or no obligation to any feudal lord, or leased it from a lord for a money rent.

    "Such peasant proprietors constituted some four percent of the farming population of England in the eleventh century. They were more numerous in western germany, northern Italy, and southern France. They probably constituted a quarter of the total peasant population in Western Europe.

    "Slavery diminished as serfdom increased.

    "In twelfth-century England it was mostly confined to household service. In France north of the Loire it was negligible. In Germany it rose in the tenth century when no compunction was felt in capturing pagan Slavs for menial tasks on German estates, or for sale in Moslem or Byzantine lands.

    "Conversely, Moslems and Greeks were kidnaped by slave traders along the shores of the Black Sea, western Asia, or northern Africa for sale as farm hands, domestic servants, eunuchs, concubines, or prostitutes in Islam or Christnedom.

    "The slave trade flourished especially in Italy probably due to the nearness of Moslem countries which could be preyed upon with a good conscience. It seemed a fair revenge for Saracen raids."

    Comments about slavery?

    Robby

    Fifi le Beau
    September 22, 2005 - 05:58 pm
    I thought these words of Prince Michael of Greece (another pretender to an over turned throne) would explain how he looks at his ancestors and how they achieved power.

    From a September 2003 article by Prince Michael of Greece.......

    "The great dynasties that spanned European history down to modern times with their impressive family trees all began in the same way, with a man who was short on titles but long on flair. Taking advantage of the proliferation of rulers during the Middle Ages, an errant adventurer relying on nothing but his audacity could outdo his rivals - murdering them if he had to - and on the freshly cleared playing field set himself up as monarch. Once their dynasties were established their first order of business was to transform themselves into hereditary monarchs."

    "Once their power was established, they needed to make it legitimate, and by a stroke of genius they invented divine right. Learned theologians on their payrolls swore that nothing less than God's will had awarded them the crown. The religious sanction had the added benefit of ending debate."

    Naturally they did not invent divine right, but most likely took it from the Jews who used the 'divine right' scam to take over Palestine from the people living there. The Jews in turn took it from others who had put forth the argument that their god was bigger and meaner than your god and only favored them of course.

    Fifi

    Justin
    September 22, 2005 - 07:24 pm
    Fifi: You have hit upon the heart and soul of the religious problem. "My God is better than your god and he gave me the right to take over your lands."

    Slavery for the slave is better than serfdom for the serf because the slave must be fed to work. The serf can expect only protection from his feudal master. There is no obligation to feed a serf.

    Scrawler
    September 23, 2005 - 12:03 pm
    I realize that this subject may not have anything to do with what we are discussing at present, but on the other hand people from slave to clergy did have to eat.

    "The hamburger has its origin in medieval culinary practice popular among warring Mongolian and Turkic tribes known as Tartars: low-quality, tough meat from Asian cattle grazing on the Russian steppes was shredded to make it more platable and digestible. As the violent Tartars drived their name from the infernal abyss, Tartarus, of Greek mythology, they in turn gave their name to the phrase "catch a tartar," meaning to attack a superior opponent, and to be the shredded raw meat dish, tartar steak, known popularly today by its French appellation, steak tartare.

    Tartar steak was not yet a gourmet dish of capers and raw egg when Russian Tartars introduced it into Germany sometime before the fourteenth century. The Germans simply flavored shredded low-grade beef with regional spices, and both cooked and raw it became a standard meal among the poorer classes. In the seaport town of Hamburg, it acquired the name "Hamburger steak." ~ Panati's Extraordinary Origins of Everyday Things p. 399

    Bubble
    September 23, 2005 - 01:06 pm
    Scrawler, to tenderize that tough meat, they usually put strips of it between horse and saddle while they were riding... I suppose it was a way to spice it as well? lol

    Rich7
    September 23, 2005 - 03:32 pm
    And it was often served in France with a piquant mayonnaise based sauce called "Tartar Sauce."

    Americans usually serve tartar sauce with fish.

    Rich

    I think we've just slipped into the "frogs and snails, etc." syndrome which Robby warned us about.

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 23, 2005 - 04:56 pm
    My last posting will be Sunday night before I leave for Las Vegas. Mal has agreed, as she has done in the past, to handle the facilitating for me for the week I am gone.

    You think I'm tough?!!

    Robby

    moxiect
    September 23, 2005 - 05:25 pm


    Robby

    Your post 102 made me chuckle. Yep, I'm still here and learning more each day.

    Traude S
    September 23, 2005 - 06:47 pm
    SCRAWLER, a comment in parentheses.

    "Beefsteak Tartare" is a delicacy and made from the finest filet mignon, preferably scraped rather than ground, served with dark bread and butter. I won't go into further detail because that would take us too far off the subject at hand.

    Regarding slaves and serfs, it may be remembered that, in Eussia, serfdom was not abolished until 1861.

    Justin
    September 23, 2005 - 10:18 pm
    The US did not abolish slavery until 1863. Russia set a good example.

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 24, 2005 - 04:26 am
    "The institution of slavery that had lasted throughout known history appeared inevitable and eternal, even to honest moralists.

    "It is true that Pope Gregory I freed two of his slaves with admirable words about the natural liberty of all men but he continued to use hundreds of slaves on the papal estates and approved laws forbidding slaves to become clerics or marry free Christians.

    "The Church denounced the sale of Christian captives to Moslems but permitted the enslavement of Moslems and of Europeans not yet converted to Christianity.

    "Thousands of captured Slavs and Saracens were distributed among monasteries as slaves and slavery on church lands and papal estates continued intil the eleventh century.

    "Canon law sometimes estimatd the wealth of church lands in slaves rather than in money. Like secular law, it considered the slave as a chattel.

    "It forbade church slaves to make wills and decreed that any peculium or savings of which they died possessed should belong to the Church. The archbishop of Narbonne, in his will of 1149 left his Saracen slaves to the bishop of Beziers.

    "St. Thomas Aquinas interpreted slavery as one consequence of Adam's sin and as economically expedient in a world where some must toil in order that others may be free to defend them. Such views were in the tradition of Aristotle and, in the the spirit of the times.

    "The rule of the Church tht her property should never be alienated except at its full market value was unfortunate for her slaves and serfs. Emancipation sometimes proved more difficult on eccelesiastical than on secular properties.

    "Nevertheless the Church progressively restricted the slave traffic by forbidding the enslavement of Christians at a time when Christianity was spreading rapidly.

    "The decline of slavery was due not to moral progress but to economic change. Production under direct physical compulsion proved less profitable or convenient than production under the stimulus of acquisitive desire. Servitude continued and the word servus served for both slave and serf but in time it became the word serf, as villein became villain and Slav became slave.

    "It was the serf, not the slave, who made the bread of the medieval world."

    Your view on this and slavery in general, please?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 24, 2005 - 07:19 am
    Read about the HISTORY OF SLAVERY.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 24, 2005 - 07:46 am
    Is SLAVERY still in existence, perhaps under another name?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 24, 2005 - 07:55 am
    Here is the THIRTEENTH AMENDMENT to the U.S. Constitution.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 24, 2005 - 08:04 am
    Here is a detailed article about REPARATIONS. For those who do not want to read the entire article, reading just the Conclusion will help.

    What is your opinion regarding reparations?

    Robby

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    September 24, 2005 - 08:55 am
    "He also implies it is nearly impossible to identify the class of citizens entitled to reparation payments from the U.S. government."

    Never in a thousand years can reparation be justly made to the descendents of African slaves. They have left their indelible mark on the whole population to an extent that now it is hard to tell who has black genes and who does not and that is their reward. There is not enough money in the world to repare the damage done to them and the only reparation that the government and other people can do now is to treat blacks the same as whites and that has not even been achieved yet after the abolition of slavery so long ago.

    If black slavery is no longer legal, then people will find other ways to enslave other people preferably the very vulnerable ones who cannot defend themselves.

    I have always believed that the world runs on economy, no matter which religion or lack thereof people belong to. It has been proven throughout S of C and I don't see that it will be different later on.

    MeriJo
    September 24, 2005 - 09:19 am
    slave (sla¯v) n.

    1. One bound in servitude as the property of a person or household.

    [Middle English sclave, from Old French esclave, from Medieval Latin scla¯vus, from Scla¯vus, Slav (from the widespread enslavement of captured Slavs in the early Middle Ages). See Slav.]

    WORD HISTORY   The derivation of the word slave encapsulates a bit of European history and explains why the two words slaves and Slavs are so similar; they are, in fact, historically identical. The word slave first appears in English around 1290, spelled sclave. The spelling is based on Old French esclave from Medieval Latin sclavus, “Slav, slave,” first recorded around 800. Sclavus comes from Byzantine Greek sklabos (pronounced sklävo¯s) “Slav,” which appears around 580. Sklavos approximates the Slavs' own name for themselves, the Slove<caron>nci, surviving in English Slovene and Slovenian. The spelling of English slave, closer to its original Slavic form, first appears in English in 1538. Slavs became slaves around the beginning of the ninth century when the Holy Roman Empire tried to stabilize a German-Slav frontier. By the 12th century stabilization had given way to wars of expansion and extermination that did not end until the Poles crushed the Teutonic Knights at Grunwald in 1410.•As far as the Slavs' own self-designation goes, its meaning is, understandably, better than “slave”; it comes from the Indo-European root *kleu–, whose basic meaning is “to hear” and occurs in many derivatives meaning “renown, fame.” The Slavs are thus “the famous people.” Slavic names ending in –slav incorporate the same word, such as Czech Bohu-slav, “God's fame,” Russian Msti-slav, “vengeful fame,” and Polish Stani-slaw, “famous for withstanding (enemies).”

    from "Answers.com"  

    Scrawler
    September 24, 2005 - 11:08 am
    "Ex-slave Thomas Hall told the Federal Writer's Project: 'Lincoln got the praise for freeing us, but did he do it? He gave us freedom without giving us any chance to live to us and us still had to depend on the southern white man for work, food, and clothing, and he held us out of necessity and went in a state of servitdue but little better than slavery." ~ "A People's History of the United States"

    This brings up an important point at least about slavery in the United States. Did Lincoln in a true sense free the slaves?

    Lincoln believed "that the institution of slavery is founded on injustice and bad policy, but that the promulgation of abolition doctrines tends to increase rather than abate its evils." Lincoln read the Constitution strictly, to mean that Congress, because of the Tenth Amendment (reserving to the states powers not specifically given to the national government), could not constitutionaly bar slavery in the states." ~ "A People's History of the United States"

    "...He [Edwin M. Stanton] expressed himself warmly and decidedly in favor of universal suffrage - without qualification of property or education in the district. In the states he did not think it so important to ensure suffrage to the colored people as to ensure them lands. I [Salmon P. Chase] agreed as to the District; but as to the states thought it easier to reach farms through suffrage than suffrage through farms. Mrs. Stanton, who is one of the best women as well as one of the loveliest, I know expressed great horror of having negroes at her table! Though she was anxious that they should have their 'rights'." ~ "The Samuel P. Chase Papers"

    Slavery as we can see by these brief statements was considered morally wrong by many northerners, but how and when to free the slaves was a major question. I think, personally, economics played a very strong role in regards to slavery.

    "But whether wrong or not, what now could be done about a system that most Southerners deemed esential to their very life? Cotton was the chief product of the Southern states; cotton grown in the South was exported to foreign markets everywhere in Europe. Without cotton, said Southern statesmen, their section of the coutnry would be reduced to provety; perhaps it could not survive at all. And cotton could not be produced in any quanity without the labor of Negroes in the field. Abolish slavery, and what system would you substitute for it?" ~ "Spy for the Confederacy"

    "It's just wrong, eternally wrong. And James says it isn't even pratical - the South would be better off economically without it. James says it's a relic of the Dark Ages and has no place in modern life -" ~ "Spy for the Confederacy"

    Even in the south slavery was considered morally wrong, but was needed to perserve a way of life. It is my opinion that slavery would have eventually have been phased out, not so much for moral reasons, but for economic reasons.

    Rich7
    September 24, 2005 - 11:14 am
    MeriJo, I read the "slave" derivation three times, and I'm still confused. (Some of you are saying "so what else is new.")

    In your reading of the definition, did the word "slave" derive from "Slav" or vice-versa? Or is it just a coincidence that the Greek and latin words for slave sound somewhat like what the Slavs have always called themselves? Adding to the confusion is the fact that the Slavs have been made slaves a number of times through history.

    Any help here anybody?

    Rich

    Bubble
    September 24, 2005 - 12:04 pm
    from my last visit in the States.

    From the reaction of Black people, I could see that many of the older generation are uneasy to talk to whites. It shouldn't be, but it is. I suppose Americans are used to it, but for me from the outside it was so obvious and unexpected so long after integration was promulgated.

    One example in particular come to mind. We were having breakfast with firends in a restaurant and I was taking pictures. I mentionned it would have been nice to ask our waitress to take one so we would all be on it, but she was busy. One of our group got up and asked the man - an Afro American - at the next table if he would help us out. The man froze on the spot, without a look at us. It was eerie. Finally his teenage daughter got up and took the picture. We were holding our breath. When we left, the family was still there and I thank them when I passed the table. The man nor his wife rose their head, only the daughter smiled.

    Can such a feeling be erased with reparations? Maybe it is not slavery, maybe it is discrimination these days and it exists in all countries. Slavery has its source in discrimination against a part of the population.

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 24, 2005 - 02:20 pm
    Some of you have been aware that my son has been in a Hospice for a number of months with a terminal tumor on the brain. Roland died this afternoon. He was 53 years old.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 24, 2005 - 04:52 pm

    Oh, ROBBY, I'm so sorry to hear about Roland's death. Your son, Roland, and my son, Robert, were the exact same age, and both of them died this year, a sad coincidence, isn't it?

    I am thinking of you and send you fond thoughts and sympathy tonight.

    Mal

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    September 24, 2005 - 05:03 pm
    Robby, I am so sorry to read that Roland passed away, it makes me very sad even if I knew he was so sick. You have all my sympathy.

    Mal, yes it is terrible to lose a child, I am also sorry for your loss.

    Eloïse

    Ginny
    September 24, 2005 - 05:10 pm
    Dear Robby, I am so sorry to hear that Roland has died. Please accept my sympathy is your great loss.

    Traude S
    September 24, 2005 - 05:49 pm
    ROBBY, please accept my sincere condolences on the loss of your son.

    JoanK
    September 24, 2005 - 05:54 pm
    ROBBY: all my thoughts and wishes are with you in your loss.

    Sunknow
    September 24, 2005 - 06:15 pm
    Robby - I am so sorry for the loss of your son.

    Sun

    prysm
    September 24, 2005 - 06:20 pm
    Robby, I am sorry he is gone. My best to you.

    Dorian

    3kings
    September 24, 2005 - 06:22 pm
    Robby That is sad news indeed. Though you have had some time to prepare, the loss of a child, when it comes, is no easier to bear. My deepest sympathy, and also to MAL.Your news will reawaken her own sad memories. ++ Trevor

    moxiect
    September 24, 2005 - 06:31 pm


    Robby,

    My deepest sympathy goes out to you.

    Fifi le Beau
    September 24, 2005 - 07:04 pm
    Robby, you have my deepest sympathy.

    Fifi

    Rich7
    September 24, 2005 - 08:21 pm
    Robby, All my sympathy to you for your loss.

    Rich

    Bubble
    September 25, 2005 - 03:46 am
    Robby, no words... I am in thought with you and share the pain. ET

    CheshireCat
    September 25, 2005 - 03:46 am
    I just dropped in quickly and saw your post Robby.

    This is just a short note to say I'm thinking of you, there are no words at a time like this that can help or alleviate your loss.

    Just know friends are all thinking of you.

    Take care

    Peta

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 25, 2005 - 04:35 am
    Thank you all for your kind words. Life moves on. Let us continue with Durant.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 25, 2005 - 04:36 am
    The Serf

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 25, 2005 - 04:46 am
    "Typically the serf tilled a plot of land owned by a lord or baron who gave him a life tenure and military protection as long as he paid an annual rent in products, labor, or money.

    "He could be evicted at the owners's will and at his death the land passed to his children only by consent and satisfction of the lord. In France he could be sold independently of the land for some forty shillings (($400.00?) Sometimes he (i.e. his labor) was sold by his owner in part to one person, in part to another.

    "In France he could abjure the feudal contract by surrendering the land and all his possessions to the seigneur. In England he was denied this right of migration and fugitive medieval serfs were recaptured as zealously as fugitive modern slaves.

    "The feudal dues of the serf to the owner of his land were numerous and diverse. Some intelligence must have been required even to remember them.

    "1- He paid annually three taxes in money - (a) a small head tax to the government but through the baron - (b) a small rent (cens) - (c) an arbitrary charge (taille) levied by the owner yearly or oftener
    2 - He annually gave the lord a share -- usually a dime or tenth -- of his crops and livestock.
    3 - He owed his lord many days of unpaid labor (corvee). This was an inheritance from older economics in which tasks like clearing woods, draining marches, digging canals, raising dykes, were performed by the peasants collectively as an obligation to the community or king. Some lords required three days weekly through most of the year, four or five days a week in plowing or harvest time. Additional labor days, paid only by meals, might be exacted in emergencies. This obligation of corvee lay upon only one male in ech household.
    4 - The serf was obliged to grind his corn, bake his bread, brew his beer, press his grapes, at the lord's mill, oven, vat, or press, and pay a small fee for each such use.
    5 - He paid a fee for the right to fish, hunt, or pasture his animals on the lord's domain.
    6 -His actions at law had to be brought before the baronial court and cost him a fee varying with the gravity of the case.
    7 - He had to serve at call in the baron's regiment in war.
    8 - If the baron was captured, the serf was expected to contribute to the ransom.
    9 - He contributed also to the substantial gift due to the lord's son on being made a knight.
    10 - He paid the baron a tax on all products that he took for sale to market or fair.
    11 - He could not sell his beer or wine until the lord had had two weeks' prior time to sell the lord's beer or wine.
    12 - In many cases he was obliged to buy a prescribed quantity of wine yearly from his lord. If he did not buy in time, says one customal (a collection of the laws of a manor), 'then the lord shall pour a four-gallon measure over the man's roof. If the wine runs down, the tenant must pay for it. If it runs upward, he shall pay nothing.
    13 - He paid a fine if he sent a son to higher education or gave him to the Church for thereby the manor lost a hand.
    14 - He paid a tax and required the lord's consent. In case he or his children married a person not belonging to his manor, for then the lord would lose some or all of the ofspring. On many estates permission and fee were required for any marriage at all.
    15 - In scattered instances we hear of the ius primae nocis or droit du seigneur, whereby the lord might claim the 'right of the first night' with the serf's bride. But in almost all cases the serf was allowed to 'redeem' his bride by payihg a fee to the lord. In this form the ius primae noctis survived in Bavaria until the eighteenth century. On some English estates the lord fined the peasant whose daughter had sinned. On some Spanish estates a peasant wife cnvicted of adultery forfeited part or all of her belongings to the lord.
    16 - If the peasant died without issue residing with him, the house and land reverted to the lord by escheat. If his heir was an unmarried daughter, she could retain the holding only by marrying a man living on the same manor. In any event, as a kind of inheritance tax, the lord, on the death of a serf tenant, was entitled to take an animal or an article or furniture or clothing from the holding. In some cases the parish priest took a similar mortuarium. In France these death dues were exacted only when the serf died without a codomiciled heir.
    17 - On some -- especially on ecclesiastical -- manors he paid an annual and an inheritance tax to the Vogt who provided military defense for the estate. To the Church the peasant paid an annual tithe or tenth of his produce."

    Would you rather be a slave or a serf?

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 25, 2005 - 07:22 am

    Serfs, Serfdom from Dictionary: LaborLawTalk.com

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 25, 2005 - 07:34 am
    This will probably be my last post until Saturday morning so I leave the facilitation in Mal's capable hands.

    Robby

    Bubble
    September 25, 2005 - 08:08 am
    fa·cil·i·ta·tion (fà silÅi t!ÆshÃn), n. 1. the act or process of facilitating. 2. Physiol. the lowering of resistance in a neural pathway to an impulse, resulting from previous or simultaneous stimulation.

    fa-cil·i·tate (fà silÆi t!tÅ), v.t., -tat·ed, -tat·ing. 1. to make easier or less difficult; help forward (an action, a process, etc.): Careful planning facilitates any kind of work. 2. to assist the progress of (a person).

    JoanK
    September 25, 2005 - 10:33 am
    "In England he was denied this right of migration and fugitive medieval serfs were recaptured as zealously as fugitive modern slaves".

    Anyone who has read the "Brother Cadfiel" detective stories by Elizabeth Peters knows about this. They are full of escaped serfs trying to get into Whales, where they won't be captured. According to Peters the problem for these serfs, if they do get away is that when they arrive at a new place, they have no land to work. Only those who have a trade can expect to be able to earn a living. And it is those who have a trade who are most valuable to their lord, as their labor can be rented out. So they are pursued most diligently.

    There was a similar system of renting out skilled slave labor in America, according to Frederick Douglass.

    Rich7
    September 25, 2005 - 11:49 am
    Joan, People trying to get into whales? I don't think so. Jonah and Pinocchio are the only ones that I know of who got into whales, and neither one of them liked it.

    Rich

    Bubble
    September 25, 2005 - 11:55 am
    Rich!!!! ROFLOL Maybe it should still be called Cambria.

    Rich7
    September 25, 2005 - 11:57 am
    An interesting aspect of slavery is the concept of indentured servitude. It was used by the British in America from colonial days up into the 19th century.

    I'm told that my Irish ancestors came to America as indentured servants. For free transport to America, you belonged to the person who paid your fare for a period usually of seven years. You could be sold from one owner to another during those seven years.

    Often the captain of a ship would buy the indentured people at the country of origin, then sell them to the highest bidder when the ship got to its destination. (Usually in British colonies.)

    You know, maybe this reparations idea has some merit. Hmmmmm.

    Rich

    MeriJo
    September 25, 2005 - 04:01 pm
    Rich 7:

    I doubted that "Slav" was the root for the word "slave". The Answers.com reference I gave has eluded me and I could not come up with it again. However, that reference may be supported by the following reference.

    "Slav" is a word of complicated origins. I hope this helps.

    Origin of the word "Slav"

    Traude S
    September 25, 2005 - 06:41 pm
    MeriJo, thank you for the link you posted in answer to Rich's question.

    May I add that a variant of the word "Slavs" lives on in the names of specific Slavic peoples, for example Slovenes and Slovaks.

    The Slavs are part of the vast group of peoples in Central and Eastern Europe like the Balts, Teutons, Celts, Romans, Greeks, Albanians, Iranians and Indians, predominantly in Central and Southern Europe. (Also part of this group were the Ancient Hittites = Anatolians and the Illyrians.)
    All belong to the Indo-European language family stemming from one ethnic and lingustic "body"- so to speak.

    I take this opportunity to submit that, in the period of history presently being studied, there existed no German nation, but instead Teutonic or Germanic tribes. The use of "Germans"for people of that era may therefore be misleading and "Germanic" might be more accurate.

    Fifi le Beau
    September 25, 2005 - 07:04 pm
    A reading of history and the clues it has left us, tells me that there are no groups of people who have escaped servitude in its many forms, to another group or at the hands of their own people.

    Whether you use the word slave, serf, bondman or bondwoman, along with a hundred other schemes to get free labor to enrich the few at the expense of the many, it all comes down to a loss of liberty for the many. For women it was not always free labor, but many were sold as concubines and prostitutes. Slavery.... by another name.

    It would not be probable to think that the family I have today escaped bondage in one form or another from the beginning until today. Someone from the clan or tribe lived long enough to procreate and pass on their genes. This does not mean that all survived, but my direct line did, as did all the members of this discussion.

    I credit much of the survival to the women on my family tree. We have five generations living today, all women down to the youngest, a four year old great-granddaughter. Our men were generous, handsome, and brave, but too many wars left many a widow to keep the family alive on her own.

    One branch of the family tree had a seafaring clan who made their fortunes in shipping and lost it in wars. A grandfather many times removed wrote in his log (the only one to survive intact) of his long and unsuccessful search for his younger brother who had been 'Shanghaied' in the Caribbean, and never heard from again.

    So whatever you call a loss of freedom, I'm sure my ancestors experienced it in one form or another. In ancient times after every battle the losers became slaves. Since the odds are mine didn't win every battle, there is a slave on the family tree. Since most of my ancestors came from western Europe, France, England, Scotland, Ireland, Belgium (it was considered part of France at the time) Holland, etc. I feel sure there is a serf on the family tree.

    When I look at my son and grandsons, I see a Viking...tall, lean, red hair, fearless, with a love of the sea. He doesn't show up on any family charts, but he surely won the battle somewhere and took his pick of the losers.

    Being born at all, and surviving for centuries as a direct line is against the odds, so I consider myself lucky. I could be at the bottom of the sea with the 'Shanghaied' brother, never to be born.

    Fifi

    mabel1015j
    September 26, 2005 - 12:21 am
    There have been so many different types of slavery thruout history. RE: 136 - many skilled slaves in the United States, particulary in urban areas were "rented" out by the masters, but some could also sell their skills on their own time and make their own money. In early slave times in the U.S. some slaves were worked on a "piece" basis, they had a particular job to do in a day or a week and if they finished that job, they were on their own time and many hired themselves out and made money for themselves, in a few cases enough to buy their freedom and that of their families.

    Most of Charleston, which we all love to go to visit because of its beautiful architecture, was built largely by Black craftsman, as was most of Washington D.C. It's a beautiful city built on the backs of slaves. I sometimes do not know how to feel when i look at the buildings in those two cities.

    And i have a similar ambiguity when i have visited the mansions of Newport RI, etc. They are fun to visit and imagine how it would be to live and party in such beauty, but I can never forget my 10 year old son asking "How could they afford all of this?" after the guide had said the Vanderbilt house used 30 servants outside and 20 servants inside to keep the house operating. I answered "because they paid their employees both at the house and in their businesses about 10 cents an hour and they paid no income taxes or any other supportive taxes." The exploitation of working people for people in power to build cathedrals, mansions, drive hummers, sail yatchs, etc always is and i suppose always will be, but i am often confused about how to feel or respond to the artifacts.

    For women who were indentured servants, if she became pregnant her indenture was lengthened, usually for another year, supposedly because she was "not whole" for 9 months, so she owed more time. Of course, some "masters" exploited that by being the person who impregnanted the servant!!!.........jean

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 26, 2005 - 04:59 am
    Good Monday morning! I've been named your Designated Facilitator until ROBBY returns on Saturday, so will be posting from Will and Ariel Durant's The Age of Faith just as he does.

    I want to congratulate you for sticking to the topic over the weekend and bringing up some interesting ideas about Feudalism. I hope this will continue until our Discussion Leader's return.

    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 26, 2005 - 05:04 am
    From so varied an assortment of dues --- never all exacted from one family -- it is impossible to calculate the total of a serf's obligation. For late medieval Germany it has been reckoned at two thirds of his produce. The power of custom pre-eminent in agricultural regimes, favored the serf: usually his dues in money and kind tended to remain the same through centuries, despite rising production and depreciated currencies. Many disabilities or obligations that lay on the serf in theory or law were softened or annulled by baronial indulgence, effective resistance, or the erosion of time. Perhaps the misery of the medieval serf has been exaggerated, the dues exacted of him were largely in lieu of a money rent to the owner, and taxes to the community, to maintain public services and public works, probably they bore a smaller proportion to his income than our federal,state, county and school taxes bear to our income today.

    The average peasant of the twelfth century was at least as well off as some sharecropers in modern states, and better off than a Roman proletaire in Augustus's reign. The baron did not consider himself an exploiter; he functioned actively on the manor, and seldom enjoyed great wealth. The peasants, till the thirteenth century, looked up to him with admiration, often with affection, if the lord became a childless widower they sent deputations to him to urge remarriage, lest the esate he left without a regular heir, and be despoiled in a war of successin.

    Like most economic and political systems in history, feudalism was what it had to be to meet the necessities of place and the nature of man.
    What percentage of an average American wage-earner's income do federal, state, county and school taxes require today?

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 26, 2005 - 05:17 am
    "This arrangement (of counting prisoners as residents of the prison instead of their state) has an unfortunate resemblance to early America under slavery, when slaves were barred from the polls but counted as three-fifths of a person for the purposes of apportioning representation in Congress." New York Times Editorial, September 26, 2005


    PHANTOM CONSTITUENTS IN THE CENSUS

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    September 26, 2005 - 06:52 am
    Mal, THISs tells us that a single person in the US pays, 30% of his wages in taxes, in Canada 30.2% and in Switzerland 29% and I was always thought that Americans paid about 25%, Canadians 40% and the Swiss 15%. I was wrong on all counts and I guess it is easy to think that we pay more taxes than in any other country. The Belgians pay the most in taxes.

    Rich7
    September 26, 2005 - 10:22 am
    MeriJo, Thanks for all the good information on Slavs vs slaves. It looks like the bottom line is that there is no relationship between the word "slave" and what the Slavic people proudly call themselves.

    Mal, welcome as the facilitator for Story of Civilization. I look forward to your direction.

    Rich

    Rich7
    September 26, 2005 - 10:43 am
    Mabel, Your comments about the buildings in Charleston, SC, and Newport RI reminded me of something remarkable I learned during a guided tour of a Newport mansion (I forget which one. Been through all of them several times.) This tour was presented through the perspective of the house servants.

    Most of the servants were young Irish or French Canadian girls. They were worked like slaves, and paid almost nothing except for a little food and crude shelter, When a girl turned 22 or 23, she would be considered too old for the long hours and grueling work and was turned out through the back door onto the streets to fare for herself.

    Rich

    Justin
    September 26, 2005 - 04:33 pm
    Taxes in the US as you know are graduated. Taxable incomes of 75k for single people are taxed at 20%. CA tacks on another 3.5% and Social Security adds another 10%. Unemployment taxes, sales taxes, and county property taxes add another 15% on the base. Total for a residential property owner in CA adds up to about 50%.

    Justin
    September 26, 2005 - 04:44 pm
    Unions have in some measure tended to break the exploitation power of employers while employees have sacrificed their individual power to negotiate based upon personal skills.

    Today the power of unions is diminishing because globalization prevents them from getting control of the labor market. I think that trend will continue for some time to come.

    Fifi le Beau
    September 26, 2005 - 07:59 pm
    From David Hackett Fischer's book Albion's Seed........

    In Fischers study of those who came in bondage, he had this to say about emigrants from Northern Ireland from 1773. Many who had signed on as indentured servants were shipped to the Caribbean to work for British landowners. Others were purchased by early English settlers on the mainland of America.

    "Among emigrants from northern Ireland, the proportion of servants was somewhat higher, but even there a majority were free. This was so in part because Irish servants were not much wanted in America. They were thought to be violent, ungovernable and very apt to assault their masters. Buyers were discouraged by lurid accounts of Irish servants who rioted in Barbados, "straggled" in Bermuda or ran away on the mainland, sometimes with their masters' wives and daughters in tow.

    In the Leeward Islands, 125 unruly Irish servants were deliberately marooned on the desolate Isle of Crabs. Throughout British America, purchasers complained of the "proud" and "haughty" spirit of these people."

    I like this passage and give a big 'hurrah' to the Irish for letting the English know they are not in England anymore with its 'suffocating' class system.

    I especially liked the passage about the Irish servant running away and the wife or daughter of his master running with him. The Irishman did not adapt to servitude. The men did perform hard labor building canals, railroads, etc. in the push west. Later thousands of young Irish women would come and work as servants to escape the famine.

    Some came in bondage, but they did not remain in that state very long. The country was too big and open to contain men and women with ambition and a free spirit like the Irish.


    Fifi

    monasqc
    September 27, 2005 - 05:39 am
    I was very sorry to read about the sad news Robby. My deepest sympathy to you. I hope you will have a good year albeit this. The story of civilization is a most interesting book. I just finished reading Peter The Great by Robert Massey. Most extraordinary from the detailed account of how Russia became a nation because of this superhuman person. Words are short of describing his personality. Even if the serf was part of society, the law assured them with basic human need. Peter The Great made sure all the classes of society contributed to the whole. For this, the serf had it better then the slave. In Russia, only the criminals were in chains.

    Françoise

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 27, 2005 - 05:49 am
    The peasant's cottage was of fragile wood, usually thatched with straw and turf, occasionally with shingles. We hear of no fire-fighting organization before 1250; when one of these cottages took fire it was usually a total loss,

    As often as not the house had only one room, at most two, a wood-burning fireplace, an oven, a kneading trough, table and benches, cupboard and dishes, utensils and andirons, caldron and pothanger, and near the oven on the earthen floor an immense mattress if feathers or straw, on which the peasant, his wife and children, and his overnight guest all slept in promiscuous and mutual warmth.

    Pigs and fowl had the run of the house. The women kept the place as clean as circumstances would permit, but the busy peasants found cleanliness a nuisance, and stories told how Satan excluded serfs from hell because he couldn't stand their smell.

    Near the cottage was a barn with horse and cows, perhaps a beehive and a hennery. Near the barn was a dunghill to which all animal or human members of the household contributed. Roundabout were the tools of agriculture and domestic industry. A cat controlled the mice, and a dog watched over all.

    Dressed in a blouse of cloth or skins, a jacket of leather or wool, belt and trousers, high shoes or boots, the peasant must have made a stately figure, not much different from the peasant of France today (1935); we must picture him not as an oppressed and beaten man, but as a strong and patient hero of the plow, sustained, as every man is, by some secret, however irrational pride.

    His wife worked as hard as himself, from dawn to dark. In addition she supplied him with children, and since children were an asset on the farm, she bore them abundantly. Nevertheless, we read in the Franciscan Pelagius (c. 1339) how some peasants "often abstain from their wives, lest children be born, fearing, under pretext of poverty, that they cannot bring up so many."

    The food of the peasant was substantial and wholesome -- dairy products, eggs, vegetables and meat; but genteel historians mourn that he had to eat black -- i.e. whole grain -- bread,

    He shared in the social life of the village, but had no cultural interests. He could not read; a literate serf would have been an offense to his illiterate lord. He was ignorant of everything but farming, and not too skilled in that. His manners were rough and hearty, perhaps gross, in this turmoil of European history he had to survive by being a good animal, and he managed it.

    He was greedy because poor; cruel because fearful, violent because repressed, churlish because he was treated like a churl.
    "He was greedy because poor; cruel because fearful, violent because repressed, churlish because he was treated like a churl."

    This is only one of Durant's comments about peasants. How do you think it applies to the peasantry of today? (People enslaved by a status in life and attitudes and treatment that limit and restrict them to poverty)

    Rich7
    September 27, 2005 - 07:07 am
    Francoise,

    I also read Massey's book on Peter the Great. It was one of the most facinating books I have ever read. Peter was personally responsible for bringing Russia from an Asian orientation to becoming a powerful European state.

    He did like to party, though.

    The beautiful city he created, St Petersburg, was a much more interesting visit for me after reading Massey's book.

    Rich

    Scrawler
    September 27, 2005 - 11:26 am
    You don't have to be a slave to suffer social injustice. It has happened in every century and will continue to happen as long as we live in a class society. Perhaps one might say that we don't really live in a class society any more. But I would have to disagree. I think there are three areas that need reform: education, criminal justice, and the treatment of women. True we have made great strides, but it seems to me that just about the time we think we have the needed reforms in place that the pendulum swings back as if our society is going backwards in time.

    Sunknow
    September 27, 2005 - 02:45 pm
    I was also fascinated by the book, Peter the Great, and have read it several times. When downsizing my collection of books two or three times in recent years, I always found I could not part with it. Sooner or later I will read it again. Peter earned his place in Russian history.

    Re the question above: We may be inclined to agree that if some of our current population of people are enslaved by a status in life being restricted to poverty, there is one obvious difference. Today there are options for education, and means to climb out of their cruel place in life. I can't say that all have the same options, but certainly some few do manage to make it.

    Sun

    Justin
    September 27, 2005 - 03:02 pm
    I suppose that one can find peasants in many societies today. Some peasantry is buried in society so deeply that it is not recognized as such. I think very few realized there were as many unschooled and unemployed blacks in New Orleans living at or under the poverty line as appeared when the storm drove everyone from the city. Some of these folks, particularly the older ones, may not have changed much since slavery days.

    The risen waters also uncovered Cajun people living in the Bayou who expected very little from life and have achieved little more than bare subsistance. The cajuns, it may be recalled, are descendants of the Acadiens, driven from French Canada by the English at the time of the French and Indian War.

    Migrant workers in Southwestern parts of the US might,I suppose, be seen as peasants but they, generally, do not fit the Durant stereotype. These people are clean,proud, and industrious but unschooled, and forced to live on a minimum wage in substandard housing. In my judgement few will remain peasants very long. Their children are in school learning English and some of the parents are becoming bilingual. Their children will be bilingual.

    Traude S
    September 27, 2005 - 03:16 pm
    Do we really still have peasants and peasantry, I wonder, in this day and age??

    I have great difficulty with the very term . Do we still refer to a small farmer - one who owns a small piece of land outside of a town or at some distance from a city on which he grows asparagus or potatoes, say, on a small scale for his own consumption, but also has a job in a factory or practices some trade - as a peasant?


    Not in Europe they don't, to the best of my knowledge. From my experience and from what I have seen in my regular trips home over the course of half a century, the concept is completely outdated, and so are the conditions Durant so painstakingly described - in 1935, was it?

    In the German village where my grandfather owned a farm but earned his money as a builder of houses, there are only a few Kleinbauern = small farmers left and only ONE Grossbauer who bought them all out.

    He arrived in the village a refugee when WW II was over. He had no home to return to: the Sudetenland was back in Czech hands. A clever young man, son of a farm family who were expelled by the Czechs, he prudently married the only daughter of an elderly moderately prosperous farmer, began raising hogs - a highly profitable (albeit malodorous) business, and gradually leased the land of all the other farmers who, as a result of Germany's Economic Miracle in the Fifties, chose to look for and found more lucrative and physically much less back-breaking work in the nearby municipal town, on Rhein-Main Airport, or in the city (Frankfurt).
    He is perpetually short on farm-hands; he had no sons, and even his grandsons want nothing to do with the business, he told me last time I saw him.

    P.S. I never saw there the grinding, abject poverty we still encounter here, and there never was any indentured class at all (though farm hands were not paid royal wages, obviously).

    And the one-room schoolhouse provided the children with at least basic education up to the age of 14, when they began a 3-year apprenticeship for a trade, boys and girls.

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 28, 2005 - 06:28 am
    The peasant was the mainstay of the Church, but he had more superstition than religion. Pelagius charged him with cheating the Church of her tithes, and neglecting to observe the holydays and the fasts; Gautier de Coincy (13th century) complained that the serf "has no more fear of God than a sheep; does not give a button for the laws of the Holy Church."

    He had his moments of heavy, earthy humor, but in the fields and in his home he was a man of spare speech, straitened vocabulary, and solemn mood, too consumed by toil and chores to waste his energy on words or dreams.

    Despite his superstitions he was a realist; he knew the merciless whims of the wky, and the certainty of death; one seasonn of drought could bring him and his brood to starvation.

    Sixty times between 970 and 1100 famine mowed men down in France; no British peasant could forget the famines of 1086 and 1125 in Merrie England. The Bishop of Trier in the twelth century was shocked to see starving peasants kill and eat his horse. Flood and earthquake entered the play and made every comedy a tragedy at the last.


    THE VILLAGE COMMUNITY

    Aroound the baronial villa some fifty to five hundred peasants -- serfs, half free or free -- built their village, living not in isolated homesteads, but, for safety 's sake, close together within the walls of the settlement.

    Usually the village was part of one or more manors, mst of its officials were appointed by the baron, and were responsible only to him, but the peasants chose a reeve or provost to mediate between them and the lord, and to coordinate their agricultural activity. In the market place they gathered periodically to barter goods in the residuum of trade that survived the economic self-containment of the manor.

    The village rural household raised its own vegetablres and some of its meat, spun its wool or linen. The tanner made leather goods, the carpenter built cottages and furniture, the wheelwright made carts; fullers, dyers, masons, saddlers, cobblers, soapmakers . . . lived in the village or came there transiently to ply their crafts on demand; and a public butcher or baker competed with the peasant and the housewife in preparing meat and bread.

    Scrawler
    September 28, 2005 - 10:51 am
    My father's family was part Cajun. My great-grandfather was forced to give up his small farm at the age of sixteen when his parents died of "the fever" and his brothers went off to war not soon after the Civil War broke out. He arrived in San Francisco with nothing but the clothes on his back and worked as a stevedore on the docks where he met and married my Irish great-grandmother. Remarkably all of his nine brothers survived the civil war but remained in Cajun country. I never met my great-grandfather, but according to my great-grandmother he was a fun loving man who enjoyed life to the fullest. According to my elderly aunts they say that most of the Cajun women in our family lived to be over 100.

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    September 28, 2005 - 03:29 pm
    Scrawler, really? I wonder if it was because of their diet and their genes because 150 years ago the life span, in Canada at least, was not very high. I gather and it was rare when a person lived to be over 100. Daniel worked as a French teacher in Baton Rouge for a short spell in his twenties.

    Why was "The Bishop of Trier in the twelfth century was shocked to see starving peasants kill and eat his horse." In times of war soldiers will eat human flesh and in times of famine horse meat is very good protein and it will prevent peasants from dying of hunger.

    I can understand a peasant "too consumed by toil and chores to waste his energy on words or dreams." life was so hard then that they barely had time between sunrise and sunset for anything else.

    Rich7
    September 28, 2005 - 03:34 pm
    I think that it is interesting that Durant's discussion of feudalism centers around what is now Europe, and we all think of feudalism as an ancient European system. However feudal systems existed at the same time (give or take a couple centuries) in what are now China, Japan and India.

    These civilizations, although physically and culturally remote from each other, developed roughly similar systems.

    It leads me to believe that feudalism should not be judged as "good" or "bad", but as an inevitable stage in the political development of a civilization.

    Rich

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 28, 2005 - 06:34 pm
    Nine tenths of the feudal economy were agricultural. Naturally, in eleventh century France and England, the cultivated land of the manor was yearly divided into three fields; one was planted to wheat or rye, one to barley or oats, one was left fallow. Each field was subdivided into acrees or half-acres strips, saparated by "balks" of unplowed turf. The village official assigned to each peasant a variable number of stirps in each field, and bound him to rotate his crops in accord with a plan fixed by the community.

    The whole field was plowed, cultivated and harvested by the joint labor of all.The scattering of one man's strips among three or more fields may have aimed to give him a fair share of unequaly productive lands, and the cooperative tillage may have been a survival from a primitive communism of which scant trace remains. In addition to these strips each peasant fulfilling his peasant dues had the right to cut timber, pasture his cattle, and gather hay in the manorial woods, common, or "green". And usually he had enough land around his cottage for a garden and flowers.

    Agricultural science in feudal Christendom cold hardly compare with that of Columella's Romans, or of Moslem Mesopotamia or Spain. Stubble and other refuse were burned on the fields to fetilise the soil and rid it of insects and weeds; marl or other limy earths provided a crude manure, there were no artificial fertilizers, and hte costs of transport limited the use of animal dung. The archbishop of Rouen emtied the offal of his stables into the Seine instead of carting it to his fields in nearby Deville.

    Peasants pooled their pence to buy a plow or harrow for their common use. Till the eleventh century the ox was the draft anijmal; he ate less expensively, and in old age could be eaten more profitably than the horse. But aoubt 1000 the harness makers invented the stiff collar that would allow a horse to draw a loaf without choking; so dressed, the horse could plow three or four times as much in a day as the ox. In wet, temperate climates speed of plowing was important; so during the eleventh century the horse more and more replaced the ox, and lost his high status as reserved for travel, hunting and war.

    Water mills, long known to the Modern East, entered Western Europe towrd the end of the twelfth century.
    Some of this does sound communistic, doesn't it? In the 70's I met a man, a Slovakian who grew up as a peasant. His father and mother, he and his sisters and brothers lived in a small cottage on baronial lands. They cut down trees, cleared fields and ploweed and planted them, able to keep only a small portion of the produce for themselves.

    John shepherded sheep and learned to sheer them at an early age. He also leaned how to clean, card and spin the wool which was woven by his mother and other members of his family, including himself, into fabric that was made into shoes and clothes.

    He told a story of how lightning saved him, his brothers and father from burning the fields, and marveled at the strawberries that came up from the ashes in the spring,.

    This old friend of mine continued some of his peasant ways until he was an old man. He spun wool he had cleaned and carded, wove rugs and fabric, grew vegetables and flowers in his garden and fished for his food.

    Fifi le Beau
    September 28, 2005 - 09:02 pm
    My mother lives on a farm. After we lost my father, my mother eventually remarried, and she chose a farmer. She has been a widow for some time, but still lives on the farm alone even though she is in her mid nineties.

    We convinced her to sell her cattle, and she did, but turned around and leased the entire farm to the man who bought her cows so they are still there but she no longer has to care for them.

    Farmers no longer plow or burn the fields. They drill the seed in last years stubble and then spray. It's harvest time here and with the huge tractors they can clean a field in short order.

    I took a ride in one and it certainly isn't a luxury car, but it had leather seats, air conditioning, and 'The Highwaymen' were playing on the CD with Willie, Waylon, Chris, and Johnny keeping us company. There was a cooler with drinks and snacks, and being up that high gave us a view you can't get behind an ox or horse.

    You've come a long way peasant.

    Fifi

    Fifi le Beau
    September 28, 2005 - 09:12 pm
    Mal, thank you for posting Durant's work, and leading the discussion while Robby is away. It is so good to see you back in SOC.

    A double thanks for posting the page numbers to show where we are in the book. Even though I finished the book some time ago, I like to keep the book nearby to refresh my memory on some topics.

    Fifi

    mabel1015j
    September 30, 2005 - 12:20 am
    The Jamesburg, Va restoration has lovely thatched cottages. The thatch is about a foot thick, I'm sure most "peasants" didn't keep that much roofing, but it certainly would be effective. Many of those interpretations of early American communities show us day-to-day live much as it may have been in 1000. I again recommend the book "The Year 1000" which is a small book about daily life in England at the turn of the first millenium.

    Encarta says a"peasant" is an agricultural worker or small farmer, or someone who lives in the country (rural areas). Webster specifies small farmers"in Europe." I don't recall ever seeing the word applied to farmers in the United States.

    Since you and Durant have commented about women's role as peasants, here's an interesting theory.....

    Historian Mary Beard in "On Understanding Woman" says that "women launched civilization," meaning that most of what we consider civilizing behaviors probably were started by women. Because women were, in the earliest groups responsible for the children and the community, which was largely women and children (men were not settled, but living in roving groups, stopping off just long enough to keep the society propagated).

    Women had to keep the children feed, hydrated, entertained, warm, rested, etc. so therefore it is very likely that women were very observant about where there were food and water sources and may have recognized where grain had been spilled in the mud on a previous visit to a spot, recognized that grain was now growing in that spot and thought 'let's try to do that ourselves, then we don't have to travel so much.' AGRICULTURE!

    And it is also likely that they domesticated dogs and cats to protect the harvest, developed baskets and pots to hold the grain and water, added decorations for the utensils and for clothing, composed lullabies, work songs, funeral dirges,(THE ARTS) developed rules for the community (GOVERNMENT) and ceremonies to celebrate life events, etc. The whole book is very interesting, but that speculation is most intriging. .......... jean

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 30, 2005 - 05:48 am
    The Church eased the toil of the peasant with Sundays and holydays, on which it was a sin to do "servile work." "Our oxen," said the peasants, "know when Sunday comes and will not work on that day."

    On such days, after Mass, the peasant sang and danced, and forgot in hearty rustic laughter the dour burden of sermon and farm. Ale was cheap, speech was free and profane, and loose tales of womankind mingled with awesome legends of the saints.

    Rough games of football, hockey, wrestling, and weight throwing pitted man against man, village against village. Cockfighting and bull baiting flourished, and hilarity reached its height when, within a closed circle, two blindfolded men, armed with cudgels, tried to kill a goose or a pig.

    Sometimes of an evening peasants visited one another, played indoor games, and drank. Usually, however, they stayed at home, for no streets were lit, and at home, since candles were dear, they went to bed soon after dark. In the long nights of the winter the famly welcomed the cattle into the cottage, thankful for their heat.

    So, by hard labor and mute courage, rather than by the initiatives and skills that proper incentives breed, the peasants of Europe fed themselves and their masters, their soldiers and clergy and kings. They drained marshes, raised dykes, cleared woods and canals, cut roads, built homes, advanced the frontier of civilization, and won the bettle between jungle and man. Modern Europe is their creation.

    Looking now at those neat hedges and ordered fields, we cannot see the centuries of toil and tribulation, breaking back and heart, that beat the raw materials of reluctantly bountiful nature into the economic foundations of our lfe.Women, too, were soldiers in that war; it was their patient fertility that conquered the earth.

    Monks fought for a time as bravely as any; planted their monasteries as outposts in the wilds, forged an economy out of chaos, and begot villages in the wilderness. At the beginning of the Middle Ages the greater part of Europe's soi was untilled and unpeopled forest and wasgte; at their end the Continent had been won for civilization. Perhaps, in its proper perspective, this was the greatest campaign, the noblest victory, the most vital achievement, of the Age of Faith.

    Rich7
    September 30, 2005 - 09:25 am
    Jean (Mabel?) , I like your theory about the role of women in the development of culture and even the arts.

    Makes sense.

    Durant does not seem to be so generous in crediting women. In Mal's last posting, Durant writes "Women, too, were soldiers in that war; it was their patient fertility that conquered the earth."

    Sort of begrudging credit.

    I wonder where Ariel was when Will wrote that?

    (Probably in the kitchen cooking his supper.)

    Rich

    Rich7
    September 30, 2005 - 09:40 am
    Another of Durant's comments in Mal's last posting reminded me of something. The reference to the land being nothing but a vast forest. William Manchester wrote a great book about life in the Middle Ages entitled "A land Lit Only by Fire" It did not get much critical acclaim, but I thought it was a terrific book.

    In it, he wrote that if you could somehow fly over Europe in an airplane at the beginning of the Middle Ages, you would look down and see nothing but forests, and conclude that nobody lives there.

    Rich

    Traude S
    September 30, 2005 - 10:59 am
    RICH, the former Ada (Ida) Kaufman was one of Durant's students and 13 years his junior. He renamed her "Ariel".
    They co-wrote The Story of Civilization and she was doubtless his main researcher. But she was not actually credited as co-author until volume 7. It is quite probable that she kept an (at least supervisory) eye on the kitchen as well. <g>

    Rich7
    September 30, 2005 - 02:43 pm
    Thank you, Traude. I was not aware that Ariel was not co author until chapter 7, and that she was much younger that he, and a student of his. Renaming the former Ada Kaufman "Ariel":-very romantic. Sounds like the basis for a great love story novel set against the background of a supreme undertaking- The Story of Civilization. Sort of like Marie and Pierre Curie.

    Then, of course, Hollywood would take the story, add a few car chases and explosions, cast Sylvester Stallone as Will, and Britney Spears as Ariel, and you'd have another film you wouldn't want to cross the street to see.

    By the way, I had the title of the Manchester book about the Middle Ages slightly wrong. It is "A World Lit Only by Fire."

    Rich

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 30, 2005 - 02:48 pm

    ARIEL DURANT

    Traude S
    September 30, 2005 - 02:56 pm
    MAL, the indented paragraphs are excruciatingly small and very hard to read.

    BTW, the same is true for your remarks in red that follow the quoted Durant passage(s). Would it be possible to put them in a size a tad larger, please ?

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    September 30, 2005 - 04:43 pm
    Rich, "Women, too, were soldiers in that war; it was their patient fertility that conquered the earth." I too found that Durant does not often speak about women's contribution to civilization, perhaps he will when his wife becomes coauthor starting with volume 7 of S of C. I wonder if he could have done it so well without Ariel.

    Thanks Mal for that link on Ariel. I think that they were a perfect team in all aspects of their life.

    3kings
    September 30, 2005 - 05:12 pm
    Traude S. The text size is set by the individual reader. The button to do this is at the top right corner of each page. ++ Trevor

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 30, 2005 - 08:34 pm
    THE LORD

    The basic principle of feudalism was mutual fealty; the economic and military obligation of serf or vassal to the lord, of lord to suzerain or superior lord, of suzerain to king; of king to suzerain, of suzerain to lord. of lord to vassal and serf. In return for the services of his serfs, the lord gave them land on a life tenure verging on ownership; he allowed them, for a modest fee, the use of his ovens, presses, mills, waters, woods and fields, he commuted many labor dues for small money payments, and let others lapse in the oblivion of time.

    He did not dispossess the serf -- usually he took care of him -- in helpless sickness or old age. On feast days he might open his gates to the poor and feed all who came. He organized the maintenance of bridges, roads, canals, and trade; he found markets for the manor's products. "hands" for its operations,, money for its purchases. He brought in good stock for breeding purposes, and allowed the serfs to service their flocks as with his selected males.

    He could strike --- in some localities or circumstances he could kill -- a serf with impunity, but his sense of economy controlled his brutality. He exercised judicial as well as military powers over his domain, and profited unduly from fines levied in the manorial court, but this court, though often intimidated by the bailiff, was mostly manned by serfs themselves, and that the rude justice there decreed was not too oppressive appears from the readiness of the serf to buy indemnity from service in these judicial assemblies. Any serf who cared and dared could speak his mind in the manorial court, some dared, and in their piecemeal and unintended way these tribunals helped forge the liberties that ended serfdom.

    Sunknow
    September 30, 2005 - 10:01 pm
    Mal - Thank you for the link: ARIEL DURANT.

    I intended to read a little about her, and get back to the Discussion. Instead of coming right back, I ended up reading link after link listed down the left side of the screen.

    Will and Ariel Durant are the most fascinating people. It's easy to get hooked on reading 'what they wrote', but just a fascinating are the things that 'other people wrote' about them.

    In the page above about "THE LORD", I am reminded that in the beginning, Ariel was a student/underling to Will Durant. But long before the end of their lives together, she had learned to speak up, and in a sense ended her own serfdom and had joined him as an equal. They apparently loved and respected each other very much.

    Sun

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 1, 2005 - 05:25 am
    Click the link below to see what Our Glorious Leader, who is due back here today, has been up to while we have stumbled along here in 'Civilization'.

    Pictures of ROBBY and other fun-loving Seniors

    Rich7
    October 1, 2005 - 09:27 am
    Mal, Your last posting of Durant's words describes a benign, symbiotic relationship between lord and serf. You can even see the rough beginnings of some of the elements of democracy.

    I am convinced, now, more than ever that feudalism was a good thing, bringing the population from an unstructured, chaotic world into a crude, but workable social structure.

    The age of feudalism may be the early teen-age years of man's political evolution toward democracy.

    Rich

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 1, 2005 - 11:03 am
    I am home and am recuperating. I will be with you folks tomorrow. You all seem to be doing very well.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 1, 2005 - 01:37 pm
    Welcome home, ROBBY.
    Here are some more pictures of you.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 2, 2005 - 01:10 am
    Thank you very much, Mal, for facilitating this discussion group for an entire week. For almost four years now you have done this for me from time to time so I could have a rest. I am especially grateful considering your personal tribulations and the fact that you have your other Senior Net responsibilities.

    OK, folks, let's pick up exactly where you all were, i.e. "The Lord."

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 2, 2005 - 01:32 am
    "A feudal lord could own more than one manor or estate.

    "In such case he appointed a 'seneschal' to supervise his 'domain' -- i.e., all his manors -- and a steward or bailiff for each. He would move from manor to manor with his household to consume their products on the spot. He might have a castle on each of his estates.

    "Descended from the walled camp (castrum, castellum) of the Roman legions, from the fortified villa of the Roman noble, or from the fortress or burg of the German chieftain, the feudal castle or chateau was built less for comfort than for security.

    "Its outermost protection was a wide, deep fosse or moat. The earth thrown up and inward from the moat formed a mound into which were sunk square posts bound together to form a continuous stockade. Across the moat a cleated drawbridge led up to an iron gate or portcullis which protected a massive door in the castle wall.

    "Within this wall were stables, kitchen, storehouses, outhouses, bakery, laundry, chapel, and servants' lodgings, usually all of wood. In war the tenants of the manor crowded with the cattle and movables into this enclosure. At its center rose the donjon, the house of the master.

    "In most cases it was a large square tower, also of wood. By the twelfth century it was built of stone and took a rounded form as easier for defense. The lowest story of the donjon was a storehouse and dungeon. Above this dwelt the lord and his family.

    "From these donjons, in the eleventh and twelfth centuries, developed the castles and chateaux of England, Germany and France, whose impregnable stones were the military basis of the lord's power against his tenants and the king."

    I find it interesting that as we move from culture to culture the style of architecture is almost always created from a point of view of protection. Think of the stockades of American colonial days. Think of those houses near the ocean which are built on stilts. I read about circular style houses built to resist hurricanes.

    We humans are so frail. We hang on to our lives by the skin of our teeth.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 2, 2005 - 01:43 am
    Here is a very long list of photos of GERMAN CASTLES where you can browse to your heart's content.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 2, 2005 - 01:46 am
    I chose to show this castle in HERZOGENRATH because I went through that community with the 29th Infantry Division during WWII.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 2, 2005 - 01:59 am
    Here are shots of FRENCH CHATEAUX in the Loire Valley where I was privileged to take a tour while I was attending the Paris Sorbonne.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 2, 2005 - 02:05 am
    Here is a list of photos of OTHER FRENCH CHATEAUX which you may also browse to your heart's content.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 2, 2005 - 02:10 am
    Another complete list of photos, this time of ENGLISH CASTLES.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 2, 2005 - 02:20 am
    Castles, forts, and moats were also common in the WORLD OF ISLAM.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 2, 2005 - 02:25 am
    Why is it that castles are important elements in FAIRY TALES?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 2, 2005 - 03:43 am
    Have you ever built CASTLES IN SPAIN?

    Robby

    Bubble
    October 2, 2005 - 05:20 am
    I could not find Sleeping Beauty Castle anywhere on the given sites. I know it is in Austria, I wish I could fly there.

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 2, 2005 - 06:21 am

    Click here to see an image of the stockade at Plimoth Plantation in 1627

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 2, 2005 - 07:41 am
    Not Austria but it's SLEEPING BEAUTY'S CASTLE.

    Robby

    Rich7
    October 2, 2005 - 08:14 am
    Bubble, King Ludwig's castle, Neuschwanstein, near Munich. May be the Sleeping Beauty castle you are thinking of. Disney copied it almost exactly for his Sleeping Beauty castles in LA and Orlando.

    Tried to post a site showing a photo of Neuschwanstein, but the old computer is not cooperating.

    Rich

    Rich7
    October 2, 2005 - 09:53 am
    http://www.castles.org/castles/Europe/Central_Europe/Germany/germany7.htm

    Yaay! I got it.

    Note the reference to Disneyland.

    I visited Neuschwanstein during the winter a few years ago. You could walk up to the castle from the small town at the foot of the mountain (I forget the name of the town.), or you could ride a horse drawn carriage. Walking up to the castle through a light snowfall was a memorable experience.

    Rich

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 2, 2005 - 10:26 am
    Any reactions to Post 184?

    Robby

    Justin
    October 2, 2005 - 12:24 pm
    I am very happy to see that the 29th Infantry left Herzogenrath castle in an upright position. During WW1 many many cathedrals and old towns were demolished, perhaps because trench warfare forced the artillery to focus on limited areas for longer time periods than were the case in WWll.

    Justin
    October 2, 2005 - 12:33 pm
    Protection is the essential reason for home construction, castles as well as single family homes. The enemy is the elements of weather as well as other humans who may have an interest in your abode. It is for that reason that walls and roofs exist. Windows and crenelations may exist for similar reasons. Lace curtains not withstanding.

    Bubble
    October 2, 2005 - 02:37 pm
    Not Austria, but France:

    http://period8mayer.tripod.com/Usse.html

    Le Chateau d'Usse

    The Castle Of Sleeping Beauty

    Rich7
    October 2, 2005 - 03:20 pm
    Bubble, Looks like you found the real Sleeping Beauty castle. The Disney folks are going to have to make it clear whose castle was the inspiration for theirs.

    The Chateau d'Usse, looks a lot like the one that Mickey hangs out in.

    (out in? Ending a sentence with two prepositions? Hope Traude doesn't see this.)

    Rich

    mabel1015j
    October 2, 2005 - 07:15 pm
    "Ariel" says Durant was excommunicated from he church at age 27! Do we know why? Does that have any impact on his writing/slant on history, especially "the age of faith"?!?......jean

    Sunknow
    October 2, 2005 - 08:01 pm
    When I lived in Germany, I was able to visit many German Castles...most, but not all of them, on the Rhine. I made a quick search for some of my books, and photos, but can't seem to find them at the moment. I can vividly remember some of the castles, but the individual names elude me at the moment.

    One of them had "donjons" that we were allowed to visit, down deep, narrow, curving stone steps, with dark, cold stone walls....so narrow that only one could pass. At the bottom was a dreadful place, with strange apparatuses used to hold or torture men. They made you know how it felt to stand in an "eleventh or twelfth century" dungeon.

    Another more modern, elaborate castle actually had a Library. It was only one wall of books, with massive library tables about the room. It was roped off, but I wanted very much to step over the line, and get my hands on some of those old books, to see what the dates actually were. Some looked heavy and cumberson, but it was the dates, and print I wanted to see.

    Also interesting was the size of the furniture in the castle. For instance, a Lady's bedroom contained an adult bed, ornate and heavily draped, but small and no longer than what we consider a "youth" sized bed. In the same castle, the men were also of short statue. Suits of armor on display were hardly worn by giant size men. They were much smaller and shorter than men today.

    The windows in many cases were barely more than slits in the thick stone walls. The castle with the Library had an interior area, round, walled in, with balconies of crude heavy wood on some levels. The area was several stories high....and the very air or atmosphere was almost green looking, maybe due to moss or mold growing on the stone walls. Like most of the castles we visited, this one was high on a hillside at the end of a long winding road, and overlooked the Rhine. It had only one entrance that we saw, but it did not have a moat.

    Sun

    I made notes, and kept books for most of these castles, but must have them put away in my "keepers" boxes.

    JoanK
    October 2, 2005 - 09:32 pm
    Have you always wanted to own a casle? Here is where you buy or rent them:

    CASTLES FOR SALE

    The pictures just look like big houses to me. how can you tell they are castles?

    Bubble
    October 3, 2005 - 12:19 am
    Hey Joan, on my mom's side I am called Castel. I wonder if we ever owned one? ... lol But I am not princess nor aspire to be one.

    Life must have been so difficult in those times of castles, serfs and wars.

    3kings
    October 3, 2005 - 12:25 am
    Justin writes :- Protection is the essential reason for home construction, castles as well as single family homes. The enemy is the elements of weather as well as other humans who may have an interest in your abode.

    This interests me, because years ago, when we were reading Durant's "The Life of Greece " I remarked that as far as I could discover, the palaces of Cnossus were built without any protective wall around them. They seemed quite open to approach from all sides.

    It was only later, and on the Greek mainland, that we find, as in other Middle Eastern countries, citadels behind a protective wall. I think it was Justin who remarked that Crete was an island, and perhaps the sea itself served as a shield against attack from hostile foreigners.

    But the sea would not of course be a defense against domestic assault. It seems unlikely, but perhaps the Cretan rulers were so benign that they had no cause to fear envy from their fellow countrymen ++ Trevor

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 3, 2005 - 04:48 am
    "The interior of the donjon was dark and confined.

    "Windows were few and small and seldom glazed. Uually canvas, oiled paper, shutters, or lattices kept out most rain and much light. Artificial light was provided by candles or torches.

    "In most cases there was but one room to each of the three stories. Ladders and trap doors, or winding stairs, connected the floors. On the second story was the main hall serving as the baron's court of justice and as dining room, living room, and bedroom for most of his household.

    "At one end there might be a raised platform or dais on which the lord, his family, and his guest ate their meals. Others ate from removable tables placed before benches in the aisles.

    "At retiring time mattresses were laid upon the floor or upon low wooden bedsteads in the aisles. All the household slept in this one room with screens providing privacy.

    "The walls were whitewashed or painted. They were adorned with banners, weapons, and armor and the room might be protected from drafts by hangings or tapestries. The floor, paved with rile or stone, was covered with rushes and boughs.

    "In the middle of the room a kind of central heating was generated by a wood fire in a hearth. Until the later Middle Ages there was no chimney. Smoke escaped througha louver or 'lantern' in the roof.

    "Behind the dais a door opened into a 'solar' where the lord, his family, and his guest might take their ease and the sun. Furniture was more comfortable there, with a carpet, a fireplace and a luxurious bed."

    The outside of the castle might be beautiful but apparently the inside was less than comfortable. "Can't judge a book by its cover?"

    Robby

    MeriJo
    October 3, 2005 - 01:07 pm
    Durant was sent by his family to St. Peter's Academy, then graduated from there to St. Peter's College, both schools in New Jersey. He was preparing for the Catholic priesthood at these schools. He may have been excommunicated because he was in a seminary when he declared he did not think as a Catholic. He became a socialist. In those days excommunication occurred more than now. Many people just quit going to Church and sometimes later return to the Church today.

    http://will-durant.biography.ms/

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_Durant

    The Durants had one daughter, Ethel.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 3, 2005 - 04:11 pm
    Any reaction to Durant's text in Post 208?

    Robby

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    October 3, 2005 - 04:47 pm
    It seems to me that the populace lived in caves compared with today. As comfort became more refined and people could live in a colder climate, they started to move northward. Around the Mediterranean sea it was fairly comfortable all year round but as people moved northward and winters become intolerable, that would take a terrible toll on infant mortality and as they started to provide more heat in the homes in the winter, the population increased.

    Those men who survived their childhood only grew up to die a short time later in a war.

    Now we have progressed in such a way as to live in Northern climates in constant comfort. What would we do without electricity and oil, go back to living in caves I guess. We are so fragile aren't we Robby?

    Éloïse

    MeriJo
    October 3, 2005 - 06:28 pm
    #208

    This describes the very early Middle Ages, and it certainly did not provide much comfort even for the lord and his lady. Perhaps this was the nucleus of the larger extended castles we saw in some of the links. It didn't appear healthy with no outlet for the smoke. I imagine the one who invented a chimney was knighted or should have been.

    Rich7
    October 3, 2005 - 06:41 pm
    Post 208, and the prior posting of Durant mention that towers in those times were origionally rectangular, but were changed to round around the 12th century for military reasons. What Durant didn't say was that European architects learned from military campaigns against the Muslim states that a round turret could take a shot from a projectile, and, if it was not a dead center hit, the projectile would glance off at an angle doing a minimum of damage. The square towers that the Europeans preferred were more easily destroyed. Even an off-center shot would do considerable damage. After learning from Muslim architecture, the builders of European towers began constructing them with a more rounded aspect

    What I find interesting is the explanation why Mosques had more asthetic looking architecture at the time compared to European houses of worship,(The tall, slender minarets, vs the squat towers of European structures.) The answer is simple, and when you think of it, obvious.- The Christian church had to structurally support a bell (Which could weigh close to a ton.) while the minaret only had to hold a man.

    Rich

    Justin
    October 3, 2005 - 09:19 pm
    Durant became a Socialist in 1906 and did not leave the Seminary, probably Darlington, until 1911, so it is not easy to conclude that he was tossed out because he was a Socialist. I'm not sure what the position of the Vatican was at that time on Socialism. It can be argued that Jesus was a Socialist and perhaps, even a Communist. His relation to the brethren was a communal one in which food and shelter was shared.

    Justin
    October 3, 2005 - 09:30 pm
    Trevor: You have the memory of an elephant. We did talk about the absence of outer wall protection on Crete and the benefits derived from a powerful commercial navy. There were inner walls, of course, to provide protection against the weather. These were decorated with those wonderful mosaics that told us so much about these early Greeks.

    Justin
    October 3, 2005 - 09:41 pm
    Rich: You and Durant gives me a new piece of information. I did not know that the shift from rectangular to round was caused by the military advantage of projectiles. I knew the shift was induced by military advantage but not specifically because the round form increased the number of glancing blows. The idea could certainly have come from the Crusades that started in 1095. The idea might also have come from Spain where Moors held much of Andalusia in prior centuries.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 4, 2005 - 03:55 am
    "The lord of the manor dressed himself in a tunic, usually of colored silk, adorned with some geometrical or floral design -- a cape covering the shoulders and loose enough to be raised over the head, short drawers and breeches, stockings that reached up the thighs and long shoes with toes curled up like prows.

    "At his belt swung a scabbard and sword. From his neck usually hung some pendant like a cross.

    "To distinguish one helmeted and armored knight from another in the First Crusade, European nobles adopted the Islamic practice of marking their garments, livery, standards, armor, and equipage with heraldic devices or coats of arms. Henceforth, heraldry developed an esoteric jargon intelligible only to heralds and knights.

    "Despite all adornments the lord was no parasitic idler. He rose at dawn, mounted his tower to detect any approaching peril, hastily breakfasted, perhaps attended Mass, had 'dinner' at 9 a.m., supervised the multifarious operations of the manor, shared actively in some of them, gave orders of the day to steward, butler, groom, and other servitors, received wayfarers and visitors, had 'supper' with them and his family at five, and usually retired at nine. On some days the routine was broken by hunting, more rarely by tournaments, now and then by war.

    "He entertained frequently and exchanged presents lavishly with his guests.

    "His wife was almost as busy as himself.

    "She bore and reared many children. She directed the many servants (with an occasional box on the ear), kept an eye on bakery, kitchen and laundry, superintended the making of butter and cheese, the brewing of beer, the salting down of meat for the winter and that major household industry of knitting, sewing, spinning, weaving, and embroidery, which made most of the family's clothing.

    "If her husband went to war she took over the military and economic management of the estate and was expected to supply his financial needs as he campaigned. If he was taken prisoner she had to squeeze a ransom for him out of the toil of his serfs or from the sale of her finery and gems.

    "If her husand died sonless she might inherit the seigneury and become its domina, dame. But she was expected to remarry soon to provide the estate and her suzerain with military protection or service. The suzerain limited her choice to a few candidates capable of meeting these obligations.

    "In the privacy of the castle she could be an amazon or a termagant and give her husband blow for blow. In her leisure hours she dressed her vigorous body in flowing fur-hemmed robes of silk, dainty headgear and footwear, and gleaming jewelry -- an ensemble fit to send a troubadour into amorous or literary ecstasy."

    Sounds as if obesity was not a problem in those times.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 4, 2005 - 04:43 am

    Medieval garb. Click small image for larger one.

    The Costumers' Manifesto: Medieval costumes

    mabel1015j
    October 4, 2005 - 12:22 pm
    Thank you Merijo and Justin for answering my question on the excommunication

    One of the reasons i liked the movie "Lion in Winter" was that it was one of the first of the castle-period movies that showed the dirt, the cold, the stone furniture, the ever present animals, etc in castle life instead of the glamorous pictorals of most castle staged movies. I show it to my Western Civ students to give them a more realistic sense of life for even the kings and queens. Of course, Katherine Hepburn's costumes remain very glamorous.

    "Tom Jones" is another movie i show pieces of to give them a reality check and i frequently remind them that they live in the best of times.

    Lacey's book "The Year 1000" says that it is a myth that people in England were much smaller than people in 2000. He said they had a fairly nutritious and plentiful diet and were probably, on average, the same as our average height. I'm sure, as Robby suggested, that their weight was significantly less.

    I find it curious that tights for men had such a long run in fashion history. What material might they have been made from? Were they knit? It seems to me it would much simpler to make a pair of trousers, so why did tights say around so long?.........jean

    MeriJo
    October 4, 2005 - 03:15 pm
    Mal:

    Thanks for your links to medieval garb. It was rather attractive and colorful, but must have been a real problem to keep clean.

    mabel 1015:

    I found this reference. Scroll down to Shoes and Tights.

    http://www.ceu.hu/medstud/manual/SRM/male.htm

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 4, 2005 - 05:07 pm
    "The children received an education quite different from that of the universities.

    "The sons of the aristocracy were rarely sent to public schooling. In many cases no effort was made to teach them how to read. Literacy was left to clerks or scribes who could be hired for a pittance.

    "Intellectual knowledge was scorned by most feudal knights. du Gueselin, one of the most honored figures of chivalry, trained himself in all the arts of war and learned to face all weathers stoutly but never bothered to learn how to read. Only in Italy and Byzantium did the nobles carry on a literary tradition.

    "Instead of going to a school, the boy of knightly family was sent, about the age of seven, to serve as page in another aristocratic household. There he learned obedience, discipline, manners, dress, the knightly code of honor and the skills of joust and war. Perhaps the local priest addded some training in letters and reckoning.

    "Girls were taught a hundred useful or pretty arts by merely seeing and doing. They took care of guests and of the knight returning from battle or tounament. They unbuckled his armor, prepared his bath, laid out clean linen and raiment and perfumes for him and waited on him at table with modest courtesy and tutored grace.

    "They, rather than the boys, learned to read and write. They provided most of the audience for troubadors, trouveres, and jongleurs, and for the romantic prose and poetry of the time."

    Any similarity with present times?

    Robby

    Justin
    October 4, 2005 - 06:21 pm
    Examples of medieval costume abound in art. Sculptures of Ekkehard and Uta adorn Naumberg Cathedral. The Bamberg Rider is worth examining. The Duke of Burgundy carried the Tres Riche Heures which contains miniatures of peasant life as well as life of the Lord of the manor. The Heures show pointed shoes and thigh length stockings as well as the serf at his tasks on the estate.

    Bubble
    October 5, 2005 - 12:24 am
    It seems that they did their best not to let mothers spoil rotten their sons. It reminds me of the Jewish religious habit where sons are with their moms up to age five, then moved to the supervision of their dad, males relatives or the melamed (teacher) at the Heder or first place of learning.

    Girls? As they told me in North Carolina: the place of a girl is in the kitchen! lol

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 5, 2005 - 03:40 am
    "The baron's household often included some vasals or retainers.

    "The vassal was a man who, in return for his military service, personal attendance, or political support, received from the lord some substantial boon or privilege -- usually a tract of land with its serfs. In such cases usufruct belonged to the vassal, ownership remained with the lord.

    "A man too proud or strong to be a serf, yet too limited to provide his own military security performed an act of 'homage' to a feudal baron, knelt bareheaded and weaponless before himn, placed his hands in the hands of the seigneur, declared himself that lord's homme or man (while retaining his rights as a freeman) and by an oath on sacred relics or the Bible pledged the lord eternal fealty. The seigneur raised him, kissed him, invested him with a fief, and gave him, in symbol thereof, a straw, stick, lance or glove.

    "Thenceforward the seigneur owed his vassal protection, friendship, fidelity, and economic and legal aid. He must not, says a medieval lawyer, insult his vassal or seduce his vassal's wife or daughter. If he does, the vassal may 'throw down the glove' as a de-fy -- i.e. as a release from fealty -- and yet keep his fief.

    "The vassal might 'subinfeudate' part of his land to a lesser vassal who would then bear the same relation and responsibility to him that he bore to his lord.>P>"A man might hold fiefs from several lords and owe them 'simple homage' and limited service but to one 'liege' lord he pledged 'liege homage' -- full allegiance and service in peace and war.

    "The lord himself, however great, might be vassal to another lord by holding property or privilege in fief from him. He might even be vassal to -- hold a fief from -- the vassal of another lord. All lords were vassals of the king.

    "In these intricate relationships the prime bond was not economic but military. A man gave or owed military service and personal fealty to a lord. Property was merely his reward.

    "In theory feudalism was a magnificent system of moral reciprocity, binding the men of an endangered society to one another in a complex web of mutual obligation, protection, and fideltity."

    I wonder if we do not, in fact, have such a "system of moral reciprocity" in these times without using the actual words of "lord" or "vassal."

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 5, 2005 - 09:15 am

    Les Tres Riches Heures du Duc de Berry, July

    Les tres Riches Heures, August

    Les tres Riches Heures, September. Chateau du Saumur

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 5, 2005 - 09:31 am

    BAMBERG RIDER

    SCULPTURES: Ekkehard, Uta, Slater, Pisano, et al.

    SCULPTURES:: Naumburg and Bamberg Cathedrals

    Scrawler
    October 5, 2005 - 11:12 am
    "St. Pantaleone was a fourth-century Christian physician and martyr known as the "all-merciful." Beheaded under orders of Roman emperor Diocletian, he became the patron saint of Venice, and a reliquary containing his blood (allegedly still liquid) is housed in the Italian town of Rvello. Pantaleone is probably the only saint to be dubiously honored by having an article of clothing named after him - though how the attribution came about involves folklore more than fact. His name literally means "all lion" (pan, "all"; leone, "lion") and though he was a clever and pious physician he passed inexplicably into Italian folklore as a lovable but simpleminded buffoon, decidedly unsaintly in character.

    It is the comic Pantalone of folklore, through behavior and attire, who eventually gave his name to pants. An abject slave to money, he starved servants until their skeletons cast no shadow, and though he valued a gentlemanly reputation, he flirted with women, who publicly mocked him. These traits are embodied in a gaunt, swarthy, goateed Pantalone of the sixteenth-century Italian "commedia dell'arte". The character wore a pair of trousers, tight from ankle to knee, then flaring out like a petticoat.

    The comedy genre was carried by bands of traveling actors to England and France. and the Pantalone character always appeared in exaggerated trousers. In France, the character and his pants came to be called "Pantalon"; in England, "Pantaloon." ~ "Panati's Extraordinary Origins of Everyday Things." (p.300)

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    October 5, 2005 - 12:00 pm
    Mal, Les Très Riches Heures links are a delight to linger in. Thank you, it gives us an idea of the life in medieval times.

    Scrawler, hahaha, yes, the origin of 'pantalon' in French and 'pants' in English is very interesting indeed. I love it.

    Traude S
    October 5, 2005 - 03:23 pm
    MAL, excellent links.

    JUSTIN, many thanks for precious reminders.
    Belated thanks to Trevor - sorry to be late.

    ROBBY, I'd like to briefly get back to castles, specifically German castles, and add to Durant's details.

    The German word for castle is "Schloss" (plural Schlösser). However, not ALL Schlõsser are fortresses, built for protection, surrounded by moats and drawbridges, or inaccessible in the hills hidden from view. (A term more approciate to those would be "Burg", singular, and "Burgen", plural.)

    Some Schlõsser, large, medium or small, are in the middle of cities (Mannheim, for example, or Koblenz in the Rhineland) WITHOUT fortifications, and were built as residences.

    Then there are the so-called Lustschlösser (notice the noun prefix) = smaller structures that (unattached) princes and dukes had commmissioned for their maîtresses = their mistresses.
    An example of the latter is the partially refurbished "Lustschloss" in Ludwigsburg, near Stuttgart, available for tours and scenic wedding receptions. I witnessed one such, and hand-kissing was back ...

    And then there are also Wasserschlõsser (notice the noun prefix) = castles built in the water. That may be of scant interest. But I wanted to mention it as an addition to the massive detail Durant is providing.

    Unless I missed something, Heidelberg is NOT listed on the link to German castles --- a regrettable omission, if you ask me, by those who compiled the list.
    Twice attacked and partially destroyed by the French two centuries ago, the history of the castle may not be all that important here.
    The fact is, however, that Heidelberg was never a bombing target in the second world war, unlike nearby Mannheim, where my parents lost their home.

    Since Durant is also about education in this volume, I'd like to add that Heidelberg, established in 1386, is the oldest university in Germany. It is my alma mater.

    MeriJo
    October 5, 2005 - 05:10 pm
    Enjoyable links, Mal.

    Thanks for the Pantaleone story, Scrawler.

    Traude: Good to know about the Heidelberg Castle. I always think of it in association with "The Student Prince."

    Fifi le Beau
    October 5, 2005 - 06:44 pm
    The House of Lords in Great Britain was composed of members by virtue of a hereditary peerage.

    Tony Blair and the Labor party ran on a platform to get rid of hereditary peerage by law. They did get a law passed in 1999 that said, "No one shall be a member of the House of Lords by virtue of a hereditary peerage." Blair cut a deal with the leader of the conservatives that allowed 90 exceptions (for their lifetime), or until the law is again changed.

    They expect this year to further cut the power of the peerage and remove the exceptions.

    Getting rid of the parasitic element in the House of Lords has proven to be difficult, but after the earlier knee capping, perhaps this year they will deliver the fatal blow.

    http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1999/19990034.htm

    Fifi

    Fifi le Beau
    October 5, 2005 - 08:34 pm
    Robby asks, "I wonder if we do not, in fact, have such a "system of moral reciprocity" in these times without using the actual words of "lord" or "vassal."

    The words, "system of moral reciprocity" seems out of place in what Durant is discussing, namely, lords and vassals and serfs. I can see nothing moral in their mutual agreements. The lord and vassal cut a deal to benefit both, mostly in favor of the lord, and always at the expense of the serf.

    It was a deal for protection. You protect my property and my status and I will cut you in for a part of this land I have taken most likely at the end of a sword.

    America has such a different system of laws that most protection rackets are run outside the law, not as a part of it. Laws enacted in congress as protection in exchange for money and power might apply and we have plenty examples of those transactions, but 'moral reciprocity' they are not. The term 'shakedown artist' and bribery would be more appropriate.

    Perhaps you had the military in mind, but our soldiers pledge to defend the Constitution, not the ruler. Could the Generals be counted as vassals? I read that we have almost 700 of them at present. It is becoming a case of too many vassals and not enough serfs as the U.S. military has not met its goals, and are at a 26 year low in recruitment.

    I could not apply the term 'moral reciprocity' to any scenario that came to mind. Not to the government, not to corporations, not to the church, not to the landlord, and not to the military. Perhaps others can find a better example.

    Fifi

    Justin
    October 5, 2005 - 09:30 pm
    I don't know what the term "moral reciprocity" means. There is no issue of morality in an agreement to scratch one another's back unless it a contract with Murder Incorporated. Most agreements tend to be reciprocal though not always well balanced.

    Mal: It's good to have you back. Bubble stepped in a few times, very nicely, while you were mending but there is no retriever like you. You get it all, no matter the clues. Thank you.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 6, 2005 - 03:20 am
    The Feudal Church

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 6, 2005 - 03:33 am
    "Sometimes the lord of the manor was a bishop or an abbot.

    "Though many monks labored with their hands and many monasteries and cathedrals sharedin parish tithes, additional support was necessary for greater ecclesiastical establishments and this came mostly from kings and nobles in gifts of land or share in feudal revenues.

    "As these gifts accumulated, the Church became the largest landholder in Europe, the greatest of feudal suzerains. The monastery of Fulda owned 15,000 small villas, that of St. Gall had 2000 serfs. Alcuin at Tours was lord of 20,000 serfs.

    "Archbishops, bishops, and abbots received investiture from the king, pledged their fealty to him like other feudatories, carried such titles as duke and count, minted coin, presided over episcopal or abbey courts and took on the feudal tasks of military service and agricultural management.

    "Bishops or abbots accoutered with armor and lance became a frequent sight in Germany and France. Richard of Cornwall, in 1257, mourned that England had no such 'warlike and mettlesome bishops.'

    "So enmeshed in the feudal web, the Church found herself a political, economic, and military, as well as a religious, institution. Her 'temporalities' or material possessions, her 'feudalities' or feudal rights and obligations, beame a scandal to strict Christians, a talking point for heretics, a source of consuming controversy between emperors and popes.

    "Feudalism feudalizd the Church."

    Any thoughts as to whether the Church is today feudal in organization?

    Robby

    MeriJo
    October 6, 2005 - 10:29 am
    If by the "Church" you mean the Catholic Church, I don't see how it could be considered "feudal."

    Each diocese in the world is responsible for the parishes in its environs.

    The Vatican has no direct management influence on the diocese as far as property goes. Its authority is for matters of the faith and morals as applied to Catholics, a spiritual area.

    The Vatican is aware of the activities of the diocese on a personal basis as every five years the bishop/archbishop of a diocese makes a personal visit to Rome to confer with the Pope. It is also aware of what dioceses do at other times in the year via all sorts of communication.

    Each Catholic University or college is independent with the exception of the Catholic University of America which is under the aegis of the Vatican. Also hospitals and other institutions of social service are independent which is why one is aware of the many fundraisers for these places.

    There is no authoritative attachment among these places.

    Once a year the faithful of the Church make a contribution if they wish to "Peter's Pence" which is a direct contribution to the Pope.

    MeriJo
    October 6, 2005 - 01:01 pm
    Should have included in my above post, and I speak for California only because I did call the tax assessor's office to verify the information, and that is that only the church or building where worship services is held is exempt from property taxes. All the other church properties are assessed for taxes. The parishioners contribute to the parish tax fund annually in a special collection for taxes in November.

    Justin
    October 6, 2005 - 02:01 pm
    We skipped over the investiture crisis from the Papal viewpoint. We are now approaching that topic from the secular side. It might be well to examine some of the Papal objections to investiture by Kings. The practice resulted in great power being vested in a secular suzerain. Bishops, who held vast lands served by thousands of serfs, owed allegiance to kings. Popes thought these lands were the property of the Church (Roman Catholic church). German emperors (Holy Roman Emperors)on the other hand were in clear possesion through their power of investiture and the tenets of feudalism. We are slowly building to a crisis that will result in significant change both in the Church (Roman Catholic, that is ) and in the authority of Kings.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 6, 2005 - 03:28 pm
    The King

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 6, 2005 - 03:41 pm
    "Just as the Church was in the twelfth century a feudal and hierarchical struction of mutual protection, service, and fealty, sanctioned by benefices and topped by a suzerain pope, so the secular feudal regime demanded for its completion a lord of all vassals, a suzerain of all secular suzerains, a king.

    "Theoretically the king was the vassal of God and governed by divine right in the sense that God permitted, and thereby authorized, his rule. Practically, however, the king had been elevated by election, inheritance or war.

    "Men like Charlemagne, Otto I, William the Conqueror, Philip Augustus, Louis IX, Frederick II, and Louis the Fair enlarged their inherited power by force of character or arms. But normally the kings of feudal Europe were not so much the rulers of their peoples as the delegates of their vassals. They were chosen or accepted by the great barons and ecclesiastics.

    "Their direct power was limited to their own feudal domain or manors. Elsewhere in their kingdom the serf and vassal swore fealty to the lord who protected them, rarely to the king whose small and distant forces could not reach out to guard the scattered outposts of the realsm.

    The state, in feudalism, was merely the king's estate."

    This reminds me, although there are great differences, of the military organization. In general, soldiers like to say that they prefer to be stationed "far from the flag" meaning that they don't want to be too near the Post Headquarters. They want to be "hidden" off in the Division or Regimental areas where they are responsible to their own colonels, captains, or even sergeants. The Colonel pretty much runs his own regiment and the Captain pretty much runs his own company and the men owe their fealty to them, not to the far off General who has no idea whatsoever how they are spending their time.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 6, 2005 - 04:53 pm
    Various comments about the DIVINE RIGHT OF KINGS.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 6, 2005 - 05:13 pm
    Changes within the current ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 6, 2005 - 05:27 pm
    Number and types of MONARCHIES in the world today.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 6, 2005 - 11:22 pm
    Every so often I remind participants here how important the Heading above is to this discussion group and to take the time to read and re-read slowly what is excerpted from Durant's words. This helps us to get a perspective of the entire volume (and series of volumes) rather than getting caught up in the narrow view. Let us not be so wrapped up in examining a single tree that we not understand the entire forest.

    Robby

    kiwi lady
    October 7, 2005 - 05:42 am
    There are other countries that are Constitutional Monarchies and they include Australia and New Zealand. Queen Elizabeth is the Constitutional Monarch.

    Carolyn

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    October 7, 2005 - 07:21 am
    What is a Monarchy

    Fifi le Beau
    October 7, 2005 - 02:02 pm
    The King had control of his own estate only, and was dependent on the good will of the Barons, Lords, etc. who were more powerful. This will all change shortly and the King will soon rule with real power.

    The idea of the 'divine right of kings' in Europe came from the catholic church in Rome. The catholics in turn took their idea of 'divine right' from Paul, who in turn took it from his own religion Judaism. Paul was not trying to create a new religion, but to fulfill the prophecy of his own and declare Christ as the Jewish Messiah.

    In the Epistle to the Romans, chapter 13, Paul wrote......

    "Let every soul be subject unto the highest powers. For there is no power but of God; the powers that be are ordained of God.

    Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God; and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

    For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same.

    For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid for he beareth not the sword in vain for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

    For this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers attending continually upon this very thing.

    Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due, custom to whom custom: fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.


    Paul tells the Romans to render Caesar his dues, fear him, honor his customs, and in general keep your nose clean lest you wind up with the lions, because leaders are God's ministers and ordained by him.

    From Robby's link......

    Augustine of Hippo modified these emphases in his work De Civitate Dei for the purpose of a newly converted Roman Empire that was in serious political and military turmoil. While the City of Man and the City of God may stand at cross-purposes, both of them have been instituted by God and served His ultimate will. Even though the City of Man – the world of secular government – may seem ungodly and be governed by sinners, even so, it has been placed on Earth for the protection of the City of God. Therefore, monarchs have been placed on their thrones for God's purpose, and to question their authority is to question God.

    Augustine reinforces the idea of the god given authority of rulers. This was not a new idea, as men had always claimed power from gods they created for that purpose. We have met many in history who have claimed to be a god themselves.

    Man created gods to give himself control over others. It works, and if all the gods disappeared today, others would be created to take their place.

    Fifi

    MeriJo
    October 7, 2005 - 02:42 pm
    God as the creator of humankind from whom all good flows would be seen as the Creator of order as well. In a society of human beings, from the very beginning there were recognized leaders in such groups. From the elders in a tribe, a patriarch of families, and after the spread of Christianity across the known world, from the kings and emperors that evolved at the time.

    The rules of behavior emanated from the Ten Commandments and were further refined by teachings of Jesus, e. g. the Beatitudes. These Christian values were introduced into the code of chivalry eventually, I think, Durant is saying. It was hoped that a certain manner of civility would follow. It did, as we see. There was much good directed to those of lesser social stature that came from the noblity during medieval times. It did continue and was the basis of accepted behavior that grew through the years.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 7, 2005 - 06:29 pm
    "In Gaul this atomization of rule proceeded furthest becaue the Carolingian princes weakened themselves by dividing the empire -- because the bishops subdued them to ecclesiastical subservience -- and because the Norse attacks broke most violently upon France.

    "In this perfected feudalism the king was primus inter pares. He stood an inch or two above the princes, dukes, marquises, and counts. But in practice he was, like these 'peers of the realm,' a feudal baron limited for revenue to his own lands, forced to move from one royal manor to another for sustenance and dependent in war and peace upon the military aid or diplomatic service of rich vassals who seldom pledgd him more than forty days of armed attendance in the year and spent half ther time plotting to unseat him.

    "To win or reward support, the crown had granted estate after estate to powerful men. In the tenth and eleventh centuries too small a domain remained to the French king to give him secure ascendancy over his vassal lords. When they made their estates hereditary, established their own police and courts and minted their own coinage, he lacked the force to prevent them.

    "He could not interfere with the jurisdiction of these vassals over their own lands except in the capital cases that appealed to him. He could not send his officers or tax collectors into their domains. He could not stop them from making independent treaties or waging independent war.

    "In feudal theory the French king owned all the lands of the lords who called him their soveriegn. In reality he was merely a great landlord, not necessarily the greatest, and never did his holdings equal those of the Church."

    Any real estate people present? Is land the ultimate wealth?

    Robby

    MeriJo
    October 7, 2005 - 07:14 pm
    An attractive parcel of land is certainly the most tangible if not the ultimate wealth.

    Justin
    October 7, 2005 - 09:06 pm
    Yes, I agree. Land is the prime source of wealth. Skill is second.

    3kings
    October 8, 2005 - 01:07 am
    Fertile land is a prime source of wealth, certainly, but only for those who have the skill and knowledge to utilise it. Without the skill of the user, even the most fertile valley is as useless as the barren mountain side.

    This of course presupposes the holders of the land are not defrauded of their wealth by merchant middlemen. If such happens, the landowner becomes first a peasant, and then his descendants become the waged workers of global bankers and supermarket chains.The company farm is slowly becoming the rule, not the exception.

    But I should return to Durant. Sorry Robby....++ Trevor

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    October 8, 2005 - 02:59 am
    Of course land is the ultimate wealth. The top soil used for agriculture, trees to build houses and pulp and paper (what would we do without that today) and most importantly for what is deep within the soil, crude oil, minerals and precious stones. The earth's wealth is in the land and the super powers fight for every inch of it.

    Those without skill work for those who have it and land is the raw material those use to amass the wealth that makes them powerful. Geography to people with skill is secondary when it comes to owning land that contains the material they need to maintain their power.

    MeryJo, it's so good to have you back I enjoyed your last posts.

    Bubble
    October 8, 2005 - 03:24 am
    Land and its riches is not enough for those who do not know how to exploit them. That is the tragedy in Africa. Look at Congo which WAS the world 6th producer of copper, has diamants, gold, uranium, zink all plentiful, not to talk about lesser metals.

    Infant mortality rate:
    total: 92.87 deaths/1,000 live births
    male: 101.25 deaths/1,000 live births
    female: 84.23 deaths/1,000 live births (2005 est.)

    Life expectancy at birth:
    total population: 49.35 years
    male: 47.29 years
    female: 51.47 years (2005 est.)


    http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/cg.html

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 8, 2005 - 03:38 am
    "As the inability of the kings to protect their realm had generated feudalism, so the inability of feudal lords to maintain order among themselves, or to provide a uniform government for an expanding commercial economy, weakened the barons and strengthened the kings.

    "The zeal for martial contests absorbed the aristocracies of feudal Europe in private and public wars. The Crusades, the Hundred Years War, the Wars of the Roses and finally the wars of religion drank up their blood.

    "Some of them, impoverished and recognizing no law, became robber barons who pilllaged and murdered at will. The excesses of liberty called for a unified power that would maintain order throughout the realm.

    "Commerce and industry generated a growing and wealthy class outside the feudal bond. Merchants resented feudal tolls and the insecurity of transport through feudal domains. They demanded that private law should be superseded by a central government.

    "The king allied himself with their class and the rising towns. They provided the finances for the assertion and extension of his authority. All who felt opposed or injured by the lords looked to the king for rescue and redress.

    "The ecclesiastical barons were usually vassal and loyal to the king. The popes, however often at odds with royalty, found it easier to deal with a monarch than with a scatterd and half-lawless nobility.

    "Upheld by these diverse forces, the French and English kings made their power hereditary instead of elective by crowning a son or brother before their own death. Men accepted hereditary monarchy as the alterntive to feudal anarchy.

    "The improvement of communication and the increased circulation of money made regular taxation possible. The mounting royal revenue financed larger royal armies. The rising class of jurists attched themselves to the throne and strengthened it by the centralizing influence of revived Roman law.

    "By the year 1250 the jurists asserted the royal jurisdiction over all persons in the realm. By that time the oath of allegiance was taken by all Frenchmen not to their lord but to their king.

    "At the end of the thirteenth century Philip the Fair was strong enough to subdue not only barons, but the papacy itself."

    Let me see if I understand this power struggle. Kings were weak so the lords took over and created the feudal system. Then the lords who spent their time and money in war and could not join hands in turn became weak and the kings regained strength.

    The impoverished lords started stealing whatever they could and the merchants who had become wealthy fought back. The kings saw what side their bread was buttered on and sided up to the commerce class. The merchants had money and the kings had the ability to unify. The powers within the Church then became frightened as their friends, the lords, became even more weak so they changed sides.

    The now stronger kings held onto their new power by appointing their heirs as future kings and finally the makers and upholders of the law also saw the handwriting on the wall and codified the new order.

    The lords never had a chance as they spent their time and money playing.

    Do I have it right here? And is there a moral somewhere?

    Robby

    kiwi lady
    October 8, 2005 - 06:43 am
    What I get from your posting above Robbie is that the Kings once they gave their power to the Merchants never got it back. The Merchants are now the Kings and have never lost their power. The Kings of Industry rule the Governments of the World.

    Rich7
    October 8, 2005 - 08:05 am
    A different perspective on what's going on at the time: A merchant class is evolving replacing an environment where only religious superstition, and the sword, spear and club determined who was in charge and who got the good stuff (Land, livestock, servants, etc.)

    The merchant class developed commerce, competition for price and quality, expanded trade with other cultures, and ultimately began to replace aristocracy with meritotracy as a path to success.

    Rich

    MeriJo
    October 8, 2005 - 09:01 am
    Thank you, Eloise. It's good to be home and computering again.

    MeriJo
    October 8, 2005 - 09:17 am
    Robby:

    What I understand from this excerpt of Durant is that many things were at work here.

    Each person was involved in improving his position. The King was being affected by the actions of the Lords and as events occurred the results became varied. Some kings grew stronger and others weaker. It seems as though there was much negotiating going on.

    In the meantime, the merchant class, as it has a tendency to do, discovered new items and means that would be beneficial to people and for these they discovered a market. Lives of people improved as a result.

    Along with the activities among the nobility and the activities of the merchant class there rose a need for law and order, and here we see the development of a professional group of legal scholars. These did initiate the formation of a new and different class in society.

    As for the church, I do believe that as a temporal power as it was at the time, it was coping with a variety if situations within its hierarchical ranks, its priesthood and the effect of novelty among the laity. With the discovery and the rise of the merchant and legal groups it found itself in a position to address these changes, too. I would think that during this time the beginnings of rumblings for reformation began to be heard.

    There was much going on in the world. It would continue. The Renaissance was not too far off. Knowledge of other countries and culture was entering into the minds of the European population.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 8, 2005 - 01:12 pm
    Whether we are talking about kings or dukes or lords or merchants or serfs, it seems to me that we are constantly talking in this discussion about class and culture differences. And, as Eloise often reminds us, it always seems to come back to the bottom line of money. This ARTICLE in today's NY Times about the upper class taking advantage of the lower weaker class is not, in my mind, any different from what was happening in the feudal system centuries ago.

    What are your thoughts?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 8, 2005 - 01:39 pm
    And it continues -- the strong class and culture dividing line. I urge everyone here to read this ARTICLE to its very end. It makes one pause and sit back and think.

    Has this not been going on for millennia between lord and serf, between corporation and small business, between billionaire and poverty stricken employee, between employer and servant, between black and white, between educated and non-educated and on and on and on?

    In the Heading above Durant says:-"I shall proceed as rapidly as time and circumstances will permit, hoping that a few of my contemporaries will care to grow old with me while learning. " I ask myself what I have learned here that will help me to exist with my contemporaries. Is the answer for me to become as wealthy as I can?

    Robby

    MeriJo
    October 8, 2005 - 04:36 pm
    I am probably in disagreement with you here, Robby.

    The article indicates Mugabe's government as the culprit in Zimbabwe's predicament. He had the notion that the white farmers were depriving the native population out of their birthright, and so initiated events to drive the white farmers off their land. Many of these farmers had been born in Africa and considered the land their home as well. This ruler did not apply diplomacy or tact in working with the white population.

    It is not a good idea in my opinion to set so much emphasis upon money unless one wants to imitate an extremely well-to-do person and neglect to recognize his/her own needs. Those are the items that should guide the accumulation of wealth and not to rise into a level of wealth where one would be uncomfortable as a member of that society or would not ever hope to have the elan to carry it off.

    It is a very debilitating frame of thought, I think, to be thinking that one member of society is going to undermine another member. This is a propaganda that really contaminates the reality of life. However, it seems to have taken root in the thinking of many people and I can only wish them well. It certainly doesn't foster a clear field for thinking matters through with the specter of being "done in" hanging over one's head by one who may be at a monetary advantage over one.

    The above is regarding the first article.

    MeriJo
    October 8, 2005 - 05:05 pm
    The article about the evacuees is very sad. It speaks for itself.

    Fifi le Beau
    October 8, 2005 - 06:35 pm
    Robby asked the question "is land the ultimate wealth" and stimulated some of the most interesting and thoughtful posts. Having just read them all and reacting to each post with an affirmative nod was an exercise in ying and yang.

    MeriJo thought that land is ultimate wealth. (Agreed)

    Justin had land as the prime source of wealth with skill second. (Agreed)

    Trevor had skill as more important. (Agreed) What's this? I still think MeriJo and Justin are right about land, but so is Trevor about skill.

    Eloise...I'm thinking skill may be more important now and then Eloise underlines crude oil and I'm back with land again. (Agreed)

    Bubble comes along and puts skill back as number one with her example of the Congo with its many riches and the status of its people who seem unable to use those riches to benefit the people. Now I'm back to skill. (Agreed)

    Kiwi...The rise of merchants during the dark ages and their current role in governments, whether they're buying off Kings or Presidents they have the power. (Agreed)

    Rich stays with Durant time line of 12th century and says merit and merchants over aristocracy. (Agreed)

    How could I possibly have agreed with everyone? I could say because everyone was wise and thoughtful and that would be so, but each post added another dimension to the original question from Robby and each of them were right in their own reasoning.

    Since Eminent Domain has been in the news lately with the Supreme Court decision, land and its ownership can be a two edged sword. This subject had a great impact on my family when I was a young girl.

    I was born and lived on a large farm that belonged to my grandparents. Ours was one of several houses that was on the farm. The house where I was born is now under a large lake that was formed when a dam was built on the river nearby to produce electricity.

    The farm was taken by the federal government under eminent domain. Since it was during the depression, the government paid very little for the property. The land was fertile and highly productive, with springs, creeks, streams, hundreds of acres of standing virgin timber, but the depression was raging and land was very cheap.

    As Trevor says, land is a source of wealth only if you can hold on to it, and that has always been a problem in America if you are in the line of sight for a dam, highway, or any of the other projects deemed important to the government.

    Fifi

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 8, 2005 - 07:04 pm
    Fifi:-Isn't being on a roller coaster fun?

    Robby

    mabel1015j
    October 8, 2005 - 10:38 pm
    One of the factors that puts people off of Christianity is the continuing hypocrisy of many leading "Christians" and church leaders throughout history. The Church, and many of it's followers, say women can't be ministers because there were no women disciples in the Bible; birth control should not be used because the Bible says go forth and multiply; etc,...... but they seem to conveniently forget the passages from the Sermon of the Mount were Jesus says the rich should give to and care for the poor, and a rich man cannot enter the kingdom of heaven, and blessed are the peacemakers, etc. So the scripture should be strictly adhered to by those lowly lay people, but the wealthy and powerful and church hierarchy can pick and choose what the "rules" are and when to adhere to them.

    Man (and I mean "man" because men have been in the power positions throughout history) seem to consistently destroy themselves and their societies/nations/corporations w/ the greed for money and power. I'm not sure that's what Schlesinger meant when he talked about the cycles of history(TongueInCheek), but this concept definitely cycles again and again, whether emporers, kings, lords, serfs, conflicting tribes, presidents, dictators, conflicting corporations.

    Jean

    Sunknow
    October 8, 2005 - 11:57 pm
    Fifi - How sad that your family lost it's home place under eminent domain. Yes, it's still much used, even as we write about it.

    Jerry Jones wants a new playground for the Dallas Cowboys in Arlington, and is getting it, by means of eminent domain. Talk about the rich winning over the poor. Jones could have built his own stadium without the help of his highly paid players or the local home owners.

    So far the City of Arlington has purchased 55 properties, 24 of them were condemned before a settlement was reached, and 88 more properties are still facing condemnation. They only need 168 properties for the stadium and parking. They have a battle in the courts right now.

    Lawyers for Jerry and the Cowboys are threating to go to the Supreme Court...but we already know how THEY feel about these "projects deemed important to the government", don't we?

    Can you imagine replacing a home that once cost $70,000 with today's prices? In that area? They are being offered incentives, but nothing can replace a home if you intended to spend the rest of your life there. The hold-outs are punished, and the city is claiming the area is "blighted and full of crime" while it has the same identical crime rate as the rest of the city.

    A few years ago, the Texas Rangers used the same ploy to build their stadium. One man invested $600,000, and sold out a few years later for $15 Million. I don't need to mention his name, but will say that he no longer lives in the area.

    There will always be the haves and have-nots.

    Sun

    (I did not intend this to be political, but I guess it is. Sorry)

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 9, 2005 - 09:42 am
    I have been examining the book archives. So far in this discussion of "The Age of Faith" we have had seven "discussions" of 1,000 words each. We began the "The Story of Civilization" four years ago as of this November 1st which included "Our Oriental Heritage," "The Age of Greece," and "Caesar and Christ" -- totaling 25 discussions of 1,000 words each.

    Therefore, 32,000 words have passed among various ones of us in the past four years trying to learn our origins, where we are now, and where we are headed. Enough for a good-sized book and enough to change our brains radically. I wonder if our friends on and off the internet have noticed the changes.

    Robby

    MeriJo
    October 9, 2005 - 11:13 am
    Sunknow:

    I, too, have seen my family home go to the city by way of eminent domain. I was so peeved about it, I went to the Law Library in our County Courthouse and looked it up. By law, unless the property taken by eminent domain is used for the common good, the former owner can claim to have that property returned. My parent's property was first used for a city parking lot, but then it was used for a Senior Citizen's Center. It must always be upgraded and never, for example return for use to a parking lot.

    The only way I can see the Dallas Cowboys getting that property is if the property is part of a Redevelopment Project. That is a convoluted way to get private property, but it can be done. Some of my parent's property was purchased as a Redevelopment Project for the city's downtown. The whole block was torn down.

    MeriJo
    October 9, 2005 - 11:15 am
    Fifi:

    That is sad that your family lost its property through eminent domain. It is a jolt.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 9, 2005 - 03:53 pm
    Feudal Law

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 9, 2005 - 04:15 pm
    "In the feudal regime where the judges and executors of civil law were usually illiterate, custom and law were largely one.

    "When question rose as to law or penalty, the oldest members of the community were asked what had been the custom thereon in their youth. The community itself was therefore the chief source of law.

    "The baron or king might give commands but these were not laws. If he exacted more than custom sanctioned he would be frustrated by universal resistance, vocal or dumb.

    "Southern France had a written law as a Roman heritage. Northern France, more feudal, preserved for the most part the laws of the Franks.

    "When in the thirteenth century these laws too were put into writing, they became even harder to change than before and a hundred legal fictions rose to reconcile them with reality.

    "The feudal law of property was complex and unique.

    "It recognized three forms of land possession:-

    1 - The allod, unconditional ownership
    2 - The fief-land whose usufruct, but not ownership, was ceded to a vassal on condition of noble service
    3 - Tenure - where the usufruct was ceded to a serf or tenant on condition of feudal dues.

    "In feudal theory only the king enjoyed absolute ownership. Even the loftiest noble was a tenant whose possession was conditional on service.

    "Nor was the lord's possession completely individual. Every son had a birthright in the ancestral lands and could obstruct their sale. Usually the whole estate was bequeathed to the eldest son. This custom of primogeniture, unknown to Roman or barbarian law, became advisable under feudal conditions because it put the military protection and economic management of the estate under one head, presumably the most mature.

    "Younger sons were encouraged to venture forth and carve out new estates in other lands.

    "Despite its limitations on ownership, feudal law yielded to no other in reverence for property and in severity of punishments for violating property rights.

    "A German code held that if a man removed the bark from one of the willow trees that held a dyke, 'his belly shall be ripped up and his bowels shall be taken out and wound around the harm he has done.' As late as 1454 a Westphalian ordinance held tht a man who had criminally removed his neighbor's landmark should be buried in the earth with his head sticking out and the land should then be plowed by oxen and men who had never plowed before.

    "'The buried man may help himself as best he can.'"

    Perhaps the above may help us to better understand "eminent domain."

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 9, 2005 - 04:22 pm
    One explanation of how LAW RELATES TO CUSTOM.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 9, 2005 - 05:02 pm
    What is the relationship of LAW TO DEMOCRACY?

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 9, 2005 - 06:18 pm

    The Six Nations. Oldest Living Participatory Democracy on Earth

    Bubble
    October 10, 2005 - 02:04 am
    I found this quote in one of my mail. It made me ponder.

    Political freedom cannot exist in any land where religion controls the state, and religious freedom cannot exist in any land where the state controls religion. -Samuel James Ervin Jr., lawyer, judge, and senator (1896-1985)

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 10, 2005 - 04:54 am
    "Feudalism encouraged the old Germanic trial by combat, partly as a mode of proof, partly in lieu of private revenge.

    "The Normans re-established it in Britain after its disuse by the Anglo-Saxons and it remained on the English statue book until the nineteenth century.

    "In 1127 a knight named Guy was accused by another named Hermann of complicity in the assassination of Charles the Good of Flanders. On Guy denying it, Hermann challenged him for a judicial duel. They fought for hours until they were both unhorsed and weaponless. They passed from fencing to wrestling and Hermann demonstrated the justice of his charge by tearing Guy's testicles from his body. Whereupon Guy expired.

    "Perhaps ashamed of such barbarities, feudal custom accumulated restrictions on the right to challenge. The accuser, to acquire such a right, was required to make out a probable case. The defendant might refuse to fight if he had proved an alibi.

    "A serf could not challenge a freeman, nor a leper a sound man, nor a bastard a man of legitimate birth. In general one might challenge only a person of equal rank with himself.

    "The laws of several communities gave the court the right to forbid any judicial duel at its discretion. Women, ecclesiastics, and persons suffering physical disability were exempt from challenge but they might choose 'champions' -- professionally skilled duelists -- to represent them. As early as the tenth century we find paid champions used as substitutes even by able-bodied males. Since God would decide the issue according to the justice of the accusation, the identity of the combatants seemed irrelevant.

    "Otto I submitted to duel by champions the question of his daughter's chastity and the disputed succession to certain estates.

    "In the thirteenth century King Alfonso X of Castile had recourse to such a duel to decide whether he should introduce Roman law into his kingdom.

    "Embassies were sometimes supplied with champions in case diplomatic quarrels should admit of resolution by duels. Until 1821 such a champion figured in the coronation ceremony of English kings.

    "He was by that date a picturesque relic. But in the Middle Ages he wa supposed to fling his gauntlet upon the ground and loudly proclaim his readiness to defend in duel against any man the divine right of the new monarch to the crown."

    Your thoughts, please?

    Robby

    MeriJo
    October 10, 2005 - 09:23 am
    It was a beginning to sorting out ways to behave, ways to apply law, ways to justify the existence of law to guide a people, and certainly, began to introduce a kind of order.

    However, there had been rules such as these in earlier civilizations, and these seemed to have been obscured over time. It is as though people needed to learn things over and over again.

    So few seemed to survive from generation to generation.

    Rich7
    October 10, 2005 - 10:32 am
    Well, I learned something here, Robby. A new view of the concept of a "champion."

    Having grown up reading the tales of King Arthur's court and watching Hollywood's concept of "the age of chivalry", I thought a champion was a brave knight who fought against evil (usually in a joust) in order to gain a fair lady's favor. i.e. he was her "champion."

    Now, I learn that the concept had a less romantic origin. A champion was someone who was paid to fight as a surrogate for a well connected or wealthy defendent in a trial by combat. However the fight turned out, the matter was settled without the aristocrat suffering any injury or discomfort.

    Rich

    Fifi le Beau
    October 10, 2005 - 01:54 pm
    Trial by combat using surrogates is still the method of eliminating enemies real or imagined. Except today the surrogate is called a 'hero' in lieu of a champion. Instead of a single knight, an army is the method of choice between the antagonists who are usually cowered under the 'bully pulpit' in their bunker issuing orders when the bullets start to fly.

    The idea of single combat is appealing especially for personal vendettas between leaders or Kings. The challenger though would have to fight with no surrogate. You challenge...you fight. The person who was challenged would be allowed a surrogate if he so wished. This would keep the young and strong from preying on the old and infirm.

    Strike up the band! Hang up the banners, rope off the ring, and bring in the combatants naked to fight until only one is left with his manhood intact. That alone should keep cowards who strut around as 'wanna be' warlords in their bunkers.

    Fifi

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 10, 2005 - 04:50 pm
    Very subtle, Fifi!! You guys are going to slip in your political comments past me if it kills you!

    Robby

    kiwi lady
    October 10, 2005 - 04:59 pm
    Robbie when one discusses history its so hard not to compare what is happening today with events of the past. Nothing much has changed only the way those in power carry out their machinations has changed because we are industrialised and have new technology. The way the powerful manipulate the masses is no different than it was in Feudal times.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 10, 2005 - 05:12 pm
    I agree, Carolyn. That is why I don't make too much of it except when it is too flagrant. In fact, I often give links to present events which do not give the names of the politicians.

    I assume everyone here knows me well enough to know when I speak with tongue in cheek without using all those fancy symbols.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 10, 2005 - 05:29 pm
    Should one's religion be followed RELIGIOUSLY?

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 10, 2005 - 06:37 pm

    "One does not always need to keep kosher", ROBBY.

    I loved this story, and wonder if anyne thought about ritual when my big surgery was done last Spring?

    Mal

    Bubble
    October 11, 2005 - 01:22 am
    mmm... Mal, yours too was for an almost total obstruction was it not? I am sure such severe surgery requires a very rigid ritual. Was your surgeon Jewish by any chance? He might have been praying just before.

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    October 11, 2005 - 05:25 am
    I loved it too Mal and Bubble I wonder if my good health is due to always having had Jewish doctors. My current doctor is a young mother of twins and an adopted child, she is the best one yet.

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 11, 2005 - 06:26 am
    Hi, ELOISE.

    BUBBLE, I don't know what religion my gastroenterologist has, and I don't know how to tell without asking, something I rarely ever do. His name was Kahane, pronounced Kay-han, which sounds Irish to me, though the spelling confused me. I really liked this man, who cared about what happened to me. Yes, I can picture him saying a little prayer or something before he opened me up and removed the large obstruction along with part of my bowel.

    The gastroenterologist who did the colonoscopy before the surgery is named Drossman. I don't know how much praying he did, but he certainly wanted to swear when none of his probes would penetrate the obstruction I had been carrying around. It was the first time that had ever happened to him.

    I liked Dr. Drossman, too. He has written an essay on the sorrowful state of modern American medical practices that he promised to send to me. I must send him an email and remind him of this.

    Mal

    Bubble
    October 11, 2005 - 06:35 am
    Mal, no need to ask, I think you are in luck!

    Fifi le Beau
    October 11, 2005 - 01:17 pm
    From today's Washington Post an article about both faith and science.

    Faith vs Science

    Fifi

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 11, 2005 - 04:19 pm
    Feudal War

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 11, 2005 - 04:34 pm
    "Feudalism arose as the military oganization of a harassed agricultural society. Its virtues were martial rather than economic. Its vassals and lords were expected to train themselves for war and be ready at any moment to leave the plowshare for the sword.

    "The feudal army was the feudal hierarchy organized by ties of feudal allegiance and strictly stratified according to grades of nobility.

    "Princes, dukes, marquises, counts, and archbishops were generals. Barons, seigneurs, bishops, and abbots were captains. Knight or chevaliers were cavalrymen. Squires were servitors to barons or knights. 'Men at-arms' -- the militia of communes or villages -- fought as infantry.

    "Behind the feudal army as we see it in the Crusades, a crowd of 'varlets' followed on foot without officers or discipline. They helped to despoil the conquered and eased the suffering of fallen and wounded enemies by despatching them with battle-axes or clubs.

    "But essentially the feudal army was the man on harseback multiplied. Infantry, insufficiently mobile, had lost its pre-eminence since Hadrianople (378) and would not regain it until the fourteenth century.

    "Cavalry was the battle arm of chivalry. They and the cavalier, the chevalier, and the caballero took their names from the horse."

    What ever happened to the infantry -- The Queen of Battle? It used to be said that the infantry wins the war.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 12, 2005 - 07:45 am
    Cavalry and chivalry are so romantic. They make a man larger than life and bigger than he is.

    The 10 Commandments of the Code of Chivalry

    <
    Becoming Men and Women of Chivalry

    Manners, Customs and Dress during the Middle Ages and the Renaissance Period. A Book

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 12, 2005 - 08:21 am
    Becoming Men and Women of Chivalry

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 12, 2005 - 08:36 am
    FEUDAL LIFE

    --- Health

    --- Religion

    ---Homes

    ---Clothing

    ---Arts and Entertainment

    ---Town Life

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 12, 2005 - 08:49 am

    The Decameron by Boccaccio

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 12, 2005 - 03:26 pm
    Durant says that in feudal times archbishops were generals and bishops and abbots were captains. In today's army clergymen of high level become generals and colonels and lower level clergymen become majors and captains. If necessary these chaplains enter into combat. Any difference between the MILITARY OF TODAY and feudal times?

    Robby

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    October 12, 2005 - 04:01 pm
    Very different, soldiers of all levels then were untrained for battle. The most valuable asset an army had was endurance in hardship and peasants were the most resilient because they were used to fatigue, privation, unsanitary conditions and bad weather. Strategy seemed lacking and the the best asset one army had was a large number of soldiers who could fight. A peasant's life had not much value in those days.

    Rich7
    October 12, 2005 - 04:10 pm
    Years ago I read an excellent book by Barbara Tuchman about Europe in the 14th century. The title was "A Distant Mirror." (It's still worth reading today.)

    What struck me, during the reading of the book, was how clergy were used as effective weapons of war.

    Time after time when a city was under siege by an army, the beseiging army would trot out a bishop or archbishop who would be permitted to enter the city under the Vatican flag.

    The bishop would reassure the city fathers that the mission of the people on the outside was to embrace the city and its inhabitants and make them part of a stronger kingdom, under God. Rape, plunder, and pillage, was not on their sacred agenda.

    Often, with this reassurance, the city fathers would open their gates to this holy and compassionate flock, whereupon the invaders would enter the city and procede to rape, plunder and pillage.

    Rich

    kiwi lady
    October 12, 2005 - 04:20 pm
    The colonials also sent the Missionaries to soften up the natives and then follow on with the land grabs. Nothing changes much!

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 13, 2005 - 07:51 am
    Feudal War: Japan

    The Peasants War

    MeriJo
    October 13, 2005 - 11:43 am
    Mal:

    Thank you so much for your recent links. They do bring to life so much of that feudal period in the world. I think I am more of a romantic when it comes to history and I find reading of it all fascinating.

    Regarding the plague - Black Plague - in Florence, for example. The Bubonic plague occurred from time to time in Italy - Who was to know that it was spread by fleas from infected rodents? It was after one such devastating plague that there was a huge depletion of population in Tuscany and my ancestor Meachino (Meh-ah-kee-no) Mariotti was given a large parcel of land by the Duke if he would live there to raise his large family of eleven sons. The family compound is to this day in the village of Cintolese near Monsummano and Montecatini Terme . This was early in the eighteenth century. As you can guess, I heard the story many times from my mother.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 13, 2005 - 04:00 pm
    "Fortification was the chief and usually adequate defense in feudal war.

    "An army defeated in the field might find refuge within manor walls and a last stand could be made in the donjon tower.

    "The science of siege declined in the Middle Ages. The complex organization and equipment for battering down enemy walls proved too costly or laborious for dignified knights but the art of the sapper or military miner held its own.

    "Navies, too, were reduced in a world whose will to war outran its means. War galleys remained like those of the ancients -- armed with battle towers on the decks and propelled by freemen or galley slaves.

    "What was lacking on power was made up in ornament, on the ship as on the man. Over a coat of pitch that preserved the wood of the vesel from water and air, medieval shipwrights and artists painted brilliant colors mixed with wax -- white, vermillion, ultramarine blue. They gilded the prow and rails and sculptured figures of men, beasts, and gods on prow and stern.

    "Sails were gaily tinted, some in purple, some in gold. A seigneur's ship was emblazoned with his coat of arms."

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 13, 2005 - 04:27 pm

    MEDIEVAL GALLEYS

    MeriJo
    October 13, 2005 - 04:32 pm
    Medieval Navies

    Colored Sails and Painted Ships

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 13, 2005 - 04:48 pm
    A DECORATED SHIP of WWII.

    Robby

    JoanK
    October 13, 2005 - 08:14 pm
    I, too, enjoyed Barbara Tuchman's "A Distant Mirror". The thing that struck me most was her criticism of the way the knights fought. Fighting, she said was a matter of honor. And their honor demanded that the knight be in the front row and charge. Using any kind of tactics was dishonorable. This was fine as long as they were fighting people who fought by the same rules. But when they tried to fight anyone else, they were slaughtered.

    She tells of one battle, fought in a narrow valley, where there were so many people in the front row that they were squeezed together like sardines and no one could move. In another, the knights were in front, with the archers behind them. So the archers couldn't shoot for fear of hitting their own men.

    Needless to say, she didn't think much of this "honor".

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 14, 2005 - 02:58 am
    Chivalry

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 14, 2005 - 03:19 am
    "Out of old Germanic customs of military initiation, crossed with Saracen influences from Persia, Syria, and Spain, and Christian ideas of devotion and sacrament, flowered the imperfect but generous reality of chivalry.

    "A knight was a person of aristocratic birth -- i.e. of titled and landowning family -- who had been formally received into the order of knighthood. Not all 'gentle' men (i.e. men distinguished by their gens of ancestry) were eligible to knighthood or title. Younger sons, except of royal blood, were normally confined to modest properties that precluded the expensive appurtenances of chivalry. Such men remained squires unless they carved out new lands and titles of their own.

    "The youth who aimed at knighthood submitted to long and arduous discipline. At seven or eight he entered as a page, at twelve or fourteen as a squire -- into the service of a lord -- waited upon him at table -- in the bedchamber -- on the manor -- in joust or battle -- fortified his own flesh and spirit with dangerous exercises and sports -- learned by imitation and trial to handle the weapons of feudal war.

    "When his apprenticeship was finished, he was received into the knightly order by a ritual of sacramental awe. The candidate began with a bath as a symbol of spiritual, perhaps as a guarantee of physical, purification. Hence he cold be called a 'knight of the bath,' as distinguished from those 'knights of the sword' who had received their accolade on some battlefield as immediate reward for bravery.

    "He was clothed in white tunic, red robe, and black coat, representing respectively the hoped-for purity of his morals, the blood he might shed for honor or God, and the death he must be prepared to meet unflinchingly. For a day he fasted. He passed a night at church in prayer, confessed his sins to a priest, attended Mass, received communion, heard a sermon on the moral, religious social, and military duties of a knight, and solemnly promised to fulfill them.

    "He then advanced to the altar with a sword hanging from his neck. The priest removed the sword, blessed it, and replaced it upon his neck. The candidate turned to the seated lord from whom he sought knighthood and was met with a stern question:-'For what purpose do you desire to enter the order? If to be rich, to take your ease, and be held in honor without doing honor to knighthood, you are unworthy of it, and would be to the order of knighthood what the semoniacal clerk is to the prelacy.' The candidate was prepared with a reassuring reply.

    "Knights or ladies then clothed him in knightly array of hauberk, cuirass or breastplate, armlets, gauntlets (armored gloves), sword and spurs. The lord, rising, gave him the accolade (i.e. on the neck) -- three blows with the flat of the sword upon the neck of shoulder and sometimes a slap on the cheek, as symbols of the last affronts that he might accept without redress. and 'dubbed' him with the formula, 'In the name of God, St. Michael, and St. George, I make thee knight.'

    "The new knight received a lance, a helmet, and a horse. He adjusted his helmet, leaped upon his horse, brandished his lance, flourished his sword, rode out from the church, distributed gifts to his attendants, and gave a fest for his friends."

    Lots of symbolism here. Comments?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 14, 2005 - 04:04 am
    Current KNIGHTHOOD in Great Britain.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 14, 2005 - 04:11 am
    Here is one story of the ORIGIN OF KNIGHTS OF ROUNDTABLE.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 14, 2005 - 04:27 am
    A LIGHTHEARTED APPROACH to Knighthood.

    Robby

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    October 14, 2005 - 08:02 am
    MICROSOFT CEO KNIGHTED ON MAY 2, 2005

    How will we be able to live without a computer from now on?

    kiwi lady
    October 14, 2005 - 10:04 am
    We do not have knighthoods any more here. It was changed recently to another unique kiwi award. We still have the Queens birthday honors list but no knighthoods unless the Queen herself confers a knighthood like the one Bill Gates got.

    carolyn

    Fifi le Beau
    October 14, 2005 - 07:08 pm
    Robby's link to British Knighthood and the Queen's role on the qualifications of a Knight.

    He would also have to prove himself worthy according to rules of chivalrous behavior, such as 'faithfulness to his Savior and Sovereign, generosity, self denial, bravery, and skill at arms.

    Bill Gates stole his horse and armor and then proceeded to knock off all the other knights in his own group, while accumulating billions for himself. Instead of a knight he should have been dubbed 'Robbin Bill'.

    A real knight

    From the U.S. Constitution Article one, section nine.

    No title of nobility shall be granted by the United States: and no person holding any office or profit or trust under them, shall, without the consent of Congress, accept of any present, emolument, office, title, or any kind whatever, from any king, prince, or foreign state.

    When congress has a 'for sale' sign hung around their neck this should not be an impediment to anyone with title envy.

    The computer along with the internet was a product of the Department of Defense through their research and development programs. The U.S. taxpayers paid for that R&D, so the average American citizen has more to do with its development than Bill Gates or the horse he rode in on.

    Fifi

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    October 15, 2005 - 05:18 pm
    Just to let you know that Robby's computer is not working since yesterday and he is having someone to look into it. I guess it shouldn't be too long before he is online again so with Mal at Dorian's for a week 10 days and she might find the time to drop in, but this leaves us alone to carry on with Durant. Oh! my what are we going to do now? I am just a tiny speck in a heaven of bright stars, so keep on shining in here until our leader is back.

    Éloïse

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 15, 2005 - 05:47 pm
    I'm in North Carolina after abvut a 12 hour trip through all of last night into today in my son's sedan-type-cab, covered-truck-bed Dodge truck.. Having had only two hours of sleep in 24 and not much the night before, I am very, very tired, and will have to wait until tomorrow before I post anything interesting about S of C. I have a problem, too, because I didn't bring the book down south with me from Pennsylvania. Tomorrow morning I'll dig up some links of something, so we can talk about them.

    Good early night. I'm going to go fall into bed and take my hurting leg with me. Goodnight.

    Mal

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    October 16, 2005 - 04:58 am
    A FEW KNIGHTED AMERICANS

    According to this it is against the Constitution of the United States but if conferred by another nation, then knighhood is permitted.

    After the revolution, the equivalent of knighthood in France is La Croix de la Légion d'Honneur and La Croix de Guerre. Ex Soviet Union had an equivalent medal of honor. Hero Worship is important in any country and no matter how much you want to equalize its citizens by democracy, a few people rise above the others and honors are bestowed upon them. Is it all that bad?

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 16, 2005 - 05:21 am
    SUNKNOW generously typed out this paragraph and sent it to me.

    He was now privileged to risk his life in tournaments that would train him still further in skill, endurance, and bravery. Begun in the tenth century, the tournament flourished above all in France, and sublimated some part of the passions and energies that disordered feudal life.

    It might be proclaimed through a herald, by a king or a great lord, to celebrate the ordination of a knight, the visit of a sovereign, or the marriage of royal blood. The knights who offered to take part came to the appointed town, hung their armorial bearings from the windows of their rooms, and affixed their coats of arms to castles, monasteries, and other public places.

    Spectators examined these, and were free to lodge complaint of wrong done by any intending participant; tournament officials would hear the case, and disqualify the guilty; there was then a "blot on his 'scutcheon," or shield.

    To the excited gathering came horse dealers to equip the knight, haberdashers to clothe him and his horse in fit array, moneylenders to ransom the fallen, fortunetellers, acrobats, mimes, troubadours and trouveres, wandering scholars, women of loose morals, and ladies of high degree. The whole occasion was a colorful festival of song and dance, trysts and brawls, and wild betting on the contests."

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 16, 2005 - 05:26 am
    The Age of the Mega-Church

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 16, 2005 - 08:12 am

    Sleeping knights at Sleeping Beauty's castle from the Briar Rose series by Sir Edward Bourne-Jones, a pre-Raphaelite artist

    A knight by Dante Gabriel Rossetti, another pre-Raphaelite artist

    Love Among the Ruins by Bourne-Jones

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 16, 2005 - 08:24 am
    Sir Galahad

    Knight of the Round Table

    Rolls of Arms, including the Scottish Knights Templar on right, scroll down

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 16, 2005 - 08:42 am
    Age of Chivalry

    Vulgate Cycle

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 16, 2005 - 08:46 am
    Tristan and Isolde

    Neuschwanstein Castle gallery

    Neuschwanstein Castle rooms. Be sure to click the links on this page

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 16, 2005 - 02:57 pm

    'Fess up, you guys; did I scare you away today or something? There's lots to talk about, so how come nobody's in here posting up a storm?

    At least come in and say hello, so ROBBY will know you're really interested and not playing hooky just because the Facilitator's computer is down!

    Mal

    Rich7
    October 16, 2005 - 03:37 pm
    Mal,

    You're wearing me out! Where do you find all this energy?

    Rich

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 16, 2005 - 03:49 pm

    Beats me, RICH. Maybe I'm just catching up after months of sickness, injury and a good-sized smattering of bad luck.

    Mal

    3kings
    October 16, 2005 - 03:52 pm
    "women of loose morals, and ladies of high degree." Were these two groups mutually exclusive, as Durant gentlemanly suggests, or were there some women who were members of both?

    Would I be accused of sexism if I were to suspect the latter? LOL

    It was the British navy, I think who divided women into three classes. "Ratings' women, officers' wives, and Admirals' Ladies." ++ Trevor

    Fifi le Beau
    October 16, 2005 - 06:35 pm
    Mal, thank you for all those great links. The picture gallery to Neuschwanstein Castle and the portraits and photograph of King Ludwig 11 were wonderful. The photograph made in 1865 is now 140 years old and is still as detailed and clear as if it were yesterday.

    The castle is even more fascinating. Begun in 1869 and built in the medieval style and decorated as the middle ages was only an illusion. The castle had the latest technology and every comfort was insured.

    The castle was outfitted with central heat, running water, toilets with automatic flushing system, electric, telephone, and a lift to move meals from kitchen to upstairs.

    Ludwig evidently liked the latest in technology, but he chose to live in a dream world of the middle ages.

    We were taught the basics about him but because he had no power, he was mostly remembered as being deposed for bankrupting the kingdom and possibly commiting suicide. He never married and left no heir, so his kingdom quickly went in decline after his death.

    The castle site was 'holy and unapproachable' according to Ludwig. I don't know how holy it was, but it was certainly unapproachable since he barred strangers and lived in a fantasy world to escape reality.

    Here is a review of Greg King's book, "The mad king".

    From Publishers Weekly Schattenkonig--shadow king--of a doomed monarchy from his accession at the age of 18 in 1864, Ludwig II reigned over Bavaria but never ruled. The day after his forced abdication in 1886, his body was found in Lake Starnberg, a presumed suicide. Neither lawgiver nor warrior, Ludwig left behind several dreamy, mock-Gothic castles and the music dramas of Wagner, whom he patronized. Despite his prodigality and retreat into brooding isolation, he is remembered almost wistfully as the storybook-handsome young sovereign whose early promise ended in insanity and mysterious death. There have been notable biographies in English, the last being Wilfrid Blunt's The Dream King, published in 1970. This newest life by King is more informative about Ludwig's upbringing and inadequate preparation for his royal role. His "fragile sexual identity" also failed him; after the wedding to a teenage cousin was canceled, he hid away in castles far from the state capital of Munich to carry on what he thought were clandestine liaisons with princes and stableboys. By 30, dissipation had cost him his health and his looks. His relationship with Wagner, whom he had championed for 18 years, also went sour. The pathetic, decadent life of Ludwig II repels more than it enthralls, despite King's attempt to sentimentalize him and make him sympathetic.

    Fifi

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 17, 2005 - 05:13 am

    TREVOR, a wise old Yankee often said to me that in certain situations "the Colonel's lady and Rosie O'Grady are much the same under the skin."

    Here are some images of paintings of Courtly Ladies by pre-Raphaelite artist, Dante Gabriel Rossetti. Ignore the fact that water was poison and people rarely took baths in those "I'm the favored Girlfriend of a Knight" days, and look at their beauty. The red-haired model Rossetti used so often was Elizabeth Siddal, the mistress he finally married.

    Click here to see these beauties. Click small images to enlarge them.

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 17, 2005 - 05:27 am
    A knight

    Sir Walter Raleiigh

    Rudolph Giuliani (Don't call him Sir)

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 17, 2005 - 05:42 am

    White Knight

    Black Knight

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 17, 2005 - 05:44 am

    King Arthur and Sir Lancelot

    Knights of the Teutonic Order

    Who were the Knights of the Teutonic Order?

    Who were the Knights Templar?

    Scrawler
    October 17, 2005 - 11:33 am
    Since Halloween is just around the corner and we are discussing the Middle ages, I came across the following that I thought might be of interest:

    "...Dread of cats, especially black cats, first arose in Europe in the Middle Ages, particularly in England. The cat's characteristic independence, willfulness and stealth, coupled with its sudden overpopulation in major cities, contributed to its fall from grace. Alley cats were often fed by poor, lonely old ladies, and when witch hysteria struck Europe, and many of these homeless women were accused of practicing black majic, their cat companions (especially black ones) were deemed guilty of witchery by association." ~"Panati's Extraordinary Origins of Everyday Things"

    Rich7
    October 17, 2005 - 06:19 pm
    ABC News on-line just printed a story about how courtesy and manners are becoming obsolete practices. People just seem to have forgotten their manners.

    Not mentioned in the story are a few of my pet peeves:

    # You're on a crowded elevator and you intend to get off at the next floor. The door opens and the people outside (waiting for the elevator) insist on wedging themselves in before allowing those who need to get off the opportunity to exit first.

    # You open the door to enter a building. There's someone behind you headed for the door. You hold the door open for him or her, and the person wordlessly passes through the door that you're holding without even a "thank you."

    # My personal pet peeve: You're standing in line a looong time to get waited on by: pick one (a sales clerk, an information booth worker, a hotel clerk, a ticket agent, etc.) The phone rings, and the clerk picks it up and begins to treat the caller like he's the next person in line, giving the caller, who stood in no line, and may not even be fully clothed, precedence over the line of individuals who have stood there waiting their turn to be served.

    Grrrr.

    Rich

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 17, 2005 - 07:40 pm

    "In several of the essays in this collection, Sen demolishes each of these 'narrow and bellicose' premises of Hindutva, along with Western religious reductionism. Sen reminds us that even the sacred epic the Ramayana , much beloved of today's Hindu revivalists, features the skeptic Javali, who advises the god-king Ram that 'there is no after-world, nor any religious practice for attaining that. . . . [Religious] injunctions . . . have been laid down in the [scriptures] by clever people, just to rule over [other] people.' India's skeptical tradition is as old as the Rigveda, composed around 1500 B.C., when most Europeans were clad in animal skins. 'Who really knows?' it asks about creation. 'Who will here proclaim it? Whence was it produced?. . . perhaps it formed itself, or perhaps it did not -- the one who looks down on it, in the highest heaven, only he knows -- or perhaps he does not know.'

    "I love that final 'or perhaps he does not know.' The reach of rationality in Indian thinking goes far; Hinduism is the only major religion with an explicit tradition of agnosticism within it. Equally important is the tradition of secular tolerance practiced by such rulers as the Buddhist Emperor Ashoka and the Muslim Emperor Akbar some 1,800 years apart.

    "Sen points out that Ashoka's edicts promoted the human rights of all in the 3rd century before Christ, a time when Aristotle's writings on freedom explicitly excluded women and slaves, an exception the Indian monarch did not make. At a time when the Catholics of Europe were tyrannizing each other, persecuting Jews with the Inquisition and burning heretics at the stake, Akbar was proclaiming in Delhi that 'no man should be interfered with on account of religion, and anyone is to be allowed to go over to a religion that pleases him.' "

    From a review of The Argumentative Indian, a book by Nobel prize-winning economist, Amartya Sen

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 17, 2005 - 08:00 pm

    Once again these paragraphs come to us from SUNKNOW. All I did was some formatting and posting.


    A tournament might last almost a week, or but a day, At a tournament in 1285 Sunday was a day of assembly and fete; Monday and Tuesday were given to jousts; Wednesday was a day of rest; Thursday saw the tourney that gave its name to the tournament.

    The lists, or field of battle, were a town square or an outlying open space, partly enclosed by stands and balconies from which the richer gentry, clothed in all the splendor of medieval costume, watched the fray; commoners stood on foot around the field.

    The stands were decorated with tapestries, drapes, pennants, and coats of arms. Musicians prefaced the engagement with music, and celebrated with flourishes the most brilliant strokes of the game. Between contests the noble lords and ladies scattered coins among the pedestrian crowd, who received them with cries of "Largesse!" and "Noel!"

    Before the first contest the knights entered the lists by marching on to the field in brilliant equipage and stately steps, followed by their mounted squires, and sometimes led in gold or silver chains by the ladies for whose glory they were to fight. Usually each knight carried on his shield, helmet, or lance a scarf, veil, mantle, bracelet, or ribbon that his chosen lady had taken from her dress.

    The joust or tilt was a single combat of rival knights; they rode against each other "at full tilt," and launched their lances of steel. If either contestant was unhorsed the rules required the other to dismount; and the fight was continued on foot will one or the other cried quits, or was hors de combat through fatigue or wounds or death, or until judges or king called a halt.

    The victor then appeared before the judges, and solemnly received a prize from them or from some fair lady. Several such tilts might fill a day. The climax of the festival came with the tourney; the enlisted knights ranged themselves in opposed groups, and fought an actual battle, though usually with blunted arms; in the tourney at Neuss (1240) some sixty knights were killed. In such tourneys prisoners were taken, and ransom exacted, as in war; the horses and armor of the captives belonged to the victors; the knights loved money even more than war.

    The fabliaux tell of a knight who protested the Church's condemnation of tournaments on the ground that if effective it would end his only means of livelihood. When all the contests were over the survivors and the noble spectators joined in an evening of feasting, song, and dance. The winning knights enjoyed the privilege of kissing the loveliest women, and heard poems and songs composed in commemoration of their victories.



    Comments?

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 18, 2005 - 06:01 am

    What's your take on RICH's quote in Post #335 and his following statements about manners? The age of knights and chivalry seems to be a time of manners. There are certain ways of behaving that are prescribed and set.

    The American south appears to be much better mannered than the north. Why is this? Why should Virginia be more polite than New Hampshire, for example?

    Does the use of manners go in phases? Are manners true behavior, or does all that politeness cover something else that can be snide and cruel?

    What do you think? Do you women like the idea of present day knights going into battle for you? Do you miss having doors held open for you? Do you think manners influence the behavior of people one to the other on a much larger scale?

    What's your opinion about this?

    Mal

    Fifi le Beau
    October 18, 2005 - 09:07 pm
    Mal is right about southern men and the custom of opening doors etc. There are not many places that one can go now that doesn't have automatic doors, but the Post Office in the small town near me still has the double entrance with doors one must open themselves.

    On a busy day no lady has to open the door if a man is nearby, and most of the time the second door is also held by those leaving who wait to let the lady through first. This kind act receives 'thank you' always.

    The south has changed dramatically in the last twenty years with one of the highest growth rates of new residents from outside the area. This is notable in mid size and larger cities. It is not as noticable in small towns, but that too is changing.

    Manners were taught in the home, and in school during my youth. The schools stopped teaching deportment sometime later, but they have begun teaching it again, beginning in kindergarten.

    Fifi

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 19, 2005 - 05:06 am
    Once again, thanks to SUNKNOW, here's a passage by Durant. Thank you for helping us out, SUN.

    Theoretically the knight was required to be a hero, a gentleman, and a saint. The Church, anxious to tame the savage beast, surrounded the institution of knighthood with religious forms and vows. The knight pledged himself always to speak the truth, defend the Church, protect the poor, make peace in his province, and pursue the infidels.

    To his liege lord he owed a loyalty more binding than filial love; to all women he was to be a guardian, saving their chastity; to all knights he was to be a brother in mutual courtesy and aid. In war he might fight other knights; but if he took any of them prisoner he must treat them as his guests; so the French knights captured at Crecy and Poitiers lived, till ransomed, in freedom and comfort on the estates of their English captors, sharing in feasts and sports with their hosts.

    Above the conscience of the commons feudalism exalted the aristocratic honor and noblesse oblige of the knight - a pledge of martial valor and feudal fidelity, of unstinting service to all knights, all women, all weak or poor. So virtus, manliness, was restored to its Roman masculine sense after a thousand years of Christian emphasis on feminine virtues. Chivalry, despite its religious aura, represented a victory of Germanic, pagan, and Arab conceptions over Christianity; a Europe attacked on every side needed the martial virtues again.

    All this, however, was chivalric theory. A few knights lived up to it, as a few Christians rose to the arduous heights of Christian selflessness. But human nature, born of jungle and beast, sullied the one ideal like the other. The same hero who one day fought bravely in tournament or battle might on another be a faithless murderer; he might carry his honor as proudly as his plume, and like Lancelot, Tristram, and realer knights, break up fine families with adultery. He might prate of protecting the weak, and strike unarmed peasants down with a sword; he treated with scorn the manual worker on whose labor rested citadel of gallantry, and with frequent coarseness and occasional brutality the wife whom he had sworn to cherish and protect.

    He could hear mass in the morning, rob a church in the afternoon, and drink himself into obscenity at night; so Gildas, who lived among them, described the British knights of that sixth century in which some poets placed Arthur and "the great order of the Table Round."

    He talked of loyalty and justice, and filled the pages of Froissart with treachery and violence. While German poets sang of chivalry, German knights engaged in fisticuffs, incendiarism, and the highway robbery of innocent travelers. The Saracens were astonished by the crudeness of cruelty of the Crusaders; even the great Bohemund, to show his contempt of the Greek emperor, sent him a cargo of sliced off noses and thumbs. Such men were exceptional, but they were plentiful.

    It would of course be absurd to expect soldiers to be saints; good killing requires its own unique virtues. These rough knights drove the Moors into Granada, the Slavs from the Order, the Magyars from Italy and Germany; they tamed the Norse into Normans, and brought French civilization into England on the points of their swords. They were what they had to be.


    * Does what Durant says here jibe with your idea of knights and the Age of Chivalry?

    " , , , , manliness, was restored to its Roman masculine sense after a thousand years of Christian emphasis on feminine virtues."
    * Does the concept of Christianity's emphasizing feminine virtues surprise you?

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 19, 2005 - 05:40 am

    ". . . . good killing requires its own unique virtues."

    What do you think about that statenent?
    Do you find anything virtuous about killing?
    Is there such a thing as "good" killing?

    I wonder.

    Mal

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    October 19, 2005 - 08:29 am
    Mal, what can I make of contradictions like this: "Such men were exceptional, but they were plentiful." Are there plentiful exceptions?

    "It would of course be absurd to expect soldiers to be saints; good killing requires its own unique virtues. " Good killing is a contradiction in terms that needs clarification.

    Thank you for holding the fort while Robby is absent, you are a faithful one in spite of your great difficulties.

    Éloïse

    MeriJo
    October 19, 2005 - 10:26 am
    The statement about "feminine virtues" seemed wild and just inserted for effect. Which are the "feminine virtues?"

    I am finding this Story of Civilization more and more subjective. I was surprised by this statement. It is general and not specific.

    "Good killing", too, is imagination. It would appear that skill in self-defense is what would be needed in combat.

    Mal, I join Eloise in thanking you for keeping this discussion going. My thanks, too, to Sunknow.

    Rich7
    October 19, 2005 - 10:39 am
    Eloise and MeriJo,

    I agree. The direction that Durant's rhetoric has taken is puzzling to me, too.

    Where did he get this? "Chivalry, despite its religious aura represented a victory of Germanic, pagan, and Arab conceptions over Christianity..."

    I also want to join you both in thanking Mal for toughing this out.

    Rich

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 19, 2005 - 02:32 pm

    Thanks for what you said about my trying to help keep this discussion alive. I think this time that SUNKNOW deserves the applause, however. She's the one who has been finding the paragraphs in The Age of Faith; typing them out and sending them to me so I can format and post them. Thanks a million, SUN. Behind the scens, you're doing a very good job.

    Well, I can see where Durant is coming from. As compared to Islam and Judaism, Christianity was certainly supposed to be the kinder, softer, ( more female? ), nurturing religion. Muslims and Jews don't turn the other cheek, for example. Jews often practiced "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth." Muslims cut off hands when people stole, and had few qualms about beheading offenders. A masculine testosterone-based belligerency and need to fight is certainly obvious to me in these two religions. Not that it isn't in Christianity, but Christians are taught that this kind of behavior is sinful and wrong. Yes, I agree that "Chivalry, despite its religious aura represented a victory of Germanic, pagan, and Arab conceptions over Christianity."

    About "good killing": It depends on which side you're on. There are many of us who consider the slaughter of Jews in the Holocaust ( or whatever slaughter of Jews in history it happened to be ) "bad" killing. Jews have been scapegoats for millennia because their beliefs are different and their solidarity is so strong. Those same people who have been appalled at the killing of Jews did not seem to think the executions of the people responsible for these murders were "bad" killing. No, it was good to be rid of those monsters, wasn't it?

    I personally don't think any killing is good. Human life is valuable to me. I might feel less strongly about this if I lived in a culture where human life is as expendable as the life of animals used for food.

    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 19, 2005 - 02:56 pm

    What sparked the Divine idea?

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 19, 2005 - 04:38 pm

    OK, your wandering minstrel is back. I had a hunch right from the beginning that the problem was not the computer itself but the phone line. It had considerable static on it and sometimes it was hard to understand the voice at the other end of the line. These past few days I have been keeping after Sprint and finally my phone line is crystal clear and the computer is back in operation.

    I have read all the postings I missed and many many thanks not only to Mal but to others who stepped in to keep the discussion going. This is a good sign when the operation does not stop just because the DL is away. A program which revolves around just one person is not a healthy one. Throughout this time Eloise left messages on my office phone letting me know how the discussion was going. Thanks, Eloise, this helped me to feel not so alone.

    So take a breather you "temporary" DL's and in a short time I will pick it up from where you all ended.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 19, 2005 - 05:11 pm
    "Two influences moderated the barbarism of chivalry -- woman and Christianity.

    "The church partly succeeded in diverting feudal pugnacity into the Crusades. Perhaps she was helped by the rising adoration of Mary the Virgin Mother.

    "Once more the feminine virtues were exalted to check the bloody ardor of vigorous men. But it may be that living women, appealing to sense as well as soul, had even more influence in transforming the warrior into a gentleman. The Church repeatedly forbade tournaments and was gaily ignored by the knights. The ladies attended tournaments and were not ignored.

    "The Church frowned upon the role of women in tournaments and in poetry. A conflict arose between the morals of noble ladies and the ethics of the Church. In the feudal world the ladies and the poets won.

    "Romantic love -- i.e. love that idealizes its object -- has probably occurred in every age, in degree loosely corresponding with the delay and obstacles between desire and fulfillment. Until our own age it was rarely the cause of marriage. If we find it quite apart from marriage when knighthood was in flower, we must view that condition as more normal than our own.

    "In most ages and above all in feudalism, women married men for their property and admired other men for their charm. Poets, having no property, had to marry at low level or love at long range and they admired their fairest songs at inaccessible dames.

    "The distance hbetween lover and beloved was usually so great that even the most passionate poetry was taken as only a pretty compliment and a well-mannered lord rewarded poets for inditing amorous verses to his wife. So the viscount of Vzuzx continued his hospitality and favors to the troubadour Peire Vidal after Peire addressed love poems to the vicountess -- even after Peire had tried to seduce her -- although this was a degree of amiability not usually to be presumed upon.

    The troubadour argued that marriage, combining a maximum of opportunity with a minimum of temptation, could hardly engender or sustain romantic love. Even the pious Dante seems never to have deamed of addressing love poems to his wife or to have found any unseemliness in addressing them to another woman, single or married. The knight agreed with the poet that knightly love had to be for some other lady than his own wife usually for the wife of another knight. Most knights,though we must not often suspect them of marital fidelity, laughed at 'courtly love,' resigned themselves in time to their mates and consolved themselves with war.

    "We hear of knights turning cold ears to ladies offering romance. Roland, in the Chanson, died with scarce a thought of his affianced bride Aude who would die of grief on hearing of his death. Women, too, were not all romantic but from the twelfth century it became a convention with many of them that a lady should have a lover, Platonic or Byronic, added to her husband.

    "If we may believe the medieval romances, the knight was pledged to the devoir or service of the lady who had given him her colors to wear. She could impose dangerous exploits to test or distance him. If he served her well she was expected to reward him with an embrace or better. This is the 'guerdon' that he claimed. To her he dedicated all his feats of arms. It was her name that he invoked in the crises of combat or the breath of death.

    "Here again feudalism was not a part of Christianity but its opposite and rival. Women, theologically so stinted in love, asserted their freedom and molded their own moral code. The worship of woman in the flesh competed with the adoration of the Virgin. Love proclamed itself an independent principle of worth and offered ideals of service, norms of conduct, scandalously ignoring religion even when borrowing its terms and forms."

    Is a woman, appealing to sense as well as soul, able to transform a warrior into a gentleman?

    Does romantic love loosely correspond with the delay and obstacles between desire and fulfillment?

    In most ages do women marry men for their property and admire other men for their charms?

    Does marriage, combining a maximum of opportunity with a minimum of temptation, find it difficult to sustain romantic love?

    What are your thoughts about this?

    Robby

    3kings
    October 19, 2005 - 05:34 pm
    MAL that's a heart warming story of the tribulations and triumphs you posted in Michigan. I had not known the full details before. You are a remarkably resilient woman. I hope you are now turning the corner.

    Where is JUSTIN ? And welcome back Robby. ++ Trevor

    3kings
    October 19, 2005 - 06:09 pm
    I think people at all times, and in all places, have wrestled with the urge to do that which seems desirable, in both love and war, rather than that which moral rectitude would dictate. I think these stresses are a part of the human condition, and they were no more pressing in past times than they are today.

    I don't know why historians ( and novelists ) should think there were past periods when romantic love rose to a fever pitch, and then subsided into the practical and commonplace.

    True, that is the experience of individuals as they age, but groups (societies )do not age. Groups, at any moment have both old and young members, each section experiencing the same emotions as preceding generations. ++ Trevor

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 20, 2005 - 03:51 am
    Does THIS have an effect on romantic love?

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 20, 2005 - 06:23 am
    From the Internet Encylopedia of Philosophy

    4. The Nature of Love: Romantic Love

    Romantic love is deemed to be of a higher metaphysical and ethical status than sexual or physical attractiveness alone. The idea of romantic love initially stems from the Platonic tradition that love is a desire for beauty-a value that transcends the particularities of the physical body. For Plato, the love of beauty culminates in the love of philosophy, the subject that pursues the highest capacity of men's thinking.

    The romantic love of knights and damsels emerged in the early medieval ages (11th Century France, fine amour) a philosophical echo of both Platonic and Aristotelian love and literally a derivative of the Roman poet, Ovid and his Ars Amatoria.> Romantic love theoretically was not to be consummated, for such love was transcendental motivated by a deep respect for the lady; however, it was to be actively pursued in chivalric deeds rather than contemplated-which is in contrast to Ovid's persistent sensual pursuit of conquests! Modern romantic love returns to Aristotle's version of the special love two people find in each other's virtues-one soul and two bodies, as he poetically puts it. It is deemed to be of a higher status, ethically, aesthetically, and even metaphysically than the love that behaviourists or physicalists describe.



    5. The Nature of Love: Physical, emotional, spiritual

    Some may hold that love is physical, i.e., that love is nothing but a physical response to another whom the agent feels physically attracted to. Accordingly, the action of loving encompasses a broad range of behaviour including caring, listening, attending to, preferring to others, and so on. (This would be proposed by behaviourists). Others (physicalists, geneticists) reduce all examinations of love to the physical motivation of the sexual impulse-the simple sexual instinct that is shared with all complex living entities, which may, in humans, be directed consciously, sub-consciously or pre-rationally toward a potential mate or object of sexual gratification.

    Physical determinists, those who believe the world to entirely physical and that every event has a prior (physical cause), consider love to be an extension of the chemical-biological constituents of the human creature and be explicable according to such processes. In this vein, geneticists may invoke the theory that the genes (an individual's DNA) form the determining criteria in any sexual or putative romantic choice, especially in choosing a mate. However, a problem for those who claim that love is reducible to the physical attractiveness of a potential mate, or to the blood ties of family and kin which forge bonds of filial love, is that it does not capture the affections between those who cannot or wish not to reproduce-that is, physicalism or determinism ignores the possibility of romantic, ideational love-it may explain eros, but not philia or agape. Behaviourism, which stems from the theory of the mind and asserts a rejection of Cartesian dualism between mind and body, entails that love is a series of actions and preferences which is thereby observable to oneself and others. The behaviourist theory that love is observable (according to the recognisable behavioural constraints corresponding to acts of love) suggests also that it is theoretically quantifiable: that A acts in a certain way (actions X,Y,Z) around B, more so than he does around C, suggests that he 'loves' B more than C.

    The problem with the behaviourist vision of love is that it is susceptible to the poignant criticism that a person's actions need not express their inner state or emotions-A may be a very good actor. Radical behaviourists, such as B F Skinner, claim that observable and unobservable behaviour such as mental states can be examined from the behaviourist framework, in terms of the laws of conditioning. On this view, that one falls in love may go unrecognised by the casual observer, but the act of being in love can be examined by what events or conditions led to the agent's believing she was in love: this may include the theory that being in love is an overtly strong reaction to a set of highly positive conditions in the behaviour or presence of another.

    Expressionist love is similar to behaviourism in that love is considered an expression of a state of affairs towards a beloved, which may be communicated through language (words, poetry, music) or behaviour (bringing flowers, giving up a kidney, diving into the proverbial burning building), but which is a reflection of an internal, emotional state, rather than an exhibition of physical responses to stimuli.

    Others in this vein may claim love to be a spiritual response, the recognition of a soul that completes one's own soul, or complements or augments it. The spiritualist vision of love incorporates mystical as well as traditional romantic notions of love, but rejects the behaviorist or physicalist explanations.

    Those who consider love to be an aesthetic response would hold that love is knowable through the emotional and conscious feeling it provokes yet which cannot perhaps be captured in rational or descriptive language: it is instead to be captured, as far as that is possible, by metaphor or by music.

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    October 20, 2005 - 07:34 am
    Parlez-Moi d'Amour (A French song of the 1950s)

    Parlez-moi d'amour
    Redites-moi des choses tendres
    Votre beau discour
    Mon cœur n'est pas las de l'entendre
    Pourvu que toujours
    Vous répétiez ces mots suprêmes
    Je vous aime


    Vous savez bien
    Que dans le fond je n'en crois rien
    Mais cependant je veux encore
    Écouter ces mot que j'adore
    Votre voix aux sons caressants
    Qui les murmure en frémissant
    Me berce de sa belle histoire
    Et malgré moi je veux y croire


    Speak to me of love
    Say tender things to me
    Your beautiful words
    I am not tired of hearing them
    As long as forever
    Repeat again the words
    I love you


    You know very well
    That down deep I don't believe them
    But still, again I want
    To hear these words I adore
    The sound of your caressing voice
    In trembling whispers
    Rocks me with a beautiful tale
    That in spite of me I want to believe.

    Some people are romantic, others are not and when one meets the other, it is not always the best partnership. Women are much more romantic than men, to me that is obvious. I know a couple where both were romantic and it was wonderful to see them still in love after 50 years of marriage. They still wrote little love notes to each other even if they were together every day.

    Éloïse

    Scrawler
    October 20, 2005 - 10:28 am
    Love is like rain
    It starts as drizzle
    A fine rain falling steadily

    Then it begins to pour
    Rain coming down in heavier doses
    A great raindrop hits you hard

    A heavy rain - washes over your head
    And down the sides of your neck
    And if you're not careful you'll drown

    ~ Anne M. Ogle (Scrawler)

    I would agree I don't believe "love" itself has changed for centuries, but I do believe that the interpretation of individuals of what "love" means has changed from one generation to another. And I think that these various interpretations than created rules or morals concerning "love" throughout history.

    Bubble
    October 20, 2005 - 11:33 am
    Post #351 Definitely has a very negative effect... I feel soooo sleepy ....

    Traude S
    October 20, 2005 - 07:34 pm
    The German word for "courtly love" is " Minne" . The knights or, in German, " Ritter" who composed and performed the "Minnelieder" were "Minnesänger - Minne singers in the minstral tradtion . Among the best known are Ulrich von Lichtenstein and Walther von der Vogelweide but there are many others.

    Of interest in this connection is the Codex Manesse = in German "die "Manessische Liederhandschrift", a literary treasure. The original manuscript is in the library of Heidelberg University. The web has plenty of material and wonderful pictures, mainly in German, but to produce any of them here unfortunately exceeds my technical capabilities. If MAL had the time to do so, I would consider it a favor.

    Fifi le Beau
    October 20, 2005 - 08:17 pm
    Thank you Eloise and Anne for the poems, and your personal comments on the subject of romantic love which rang so true.

    Fifi

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 21, 2005 - 04:21 am
    "So complicated a severance of love and marriage raised many problems of morals and etiquette.

    "As in Ovid's days, authors dealt with these questions with all the nicety of casuists. Some time between 1174 and 1182 one Andreas Capellanus -- Andrew the Chaplain -- composed a Tractatus de amore et de amoris remedio (Treatise on Love and Its Cure) in which, among other matters, he laid down the code and principles of 'courtly love.'

    "Andrew limits such love to the aristocracy. He unblushingly assumes that it is the illicit passion of a knight for another knight's wife but considers its distinguishing characteristic as the homage, vassalage, and service of the man to the woman.

    "This book is the chief authority for the existence of medieval 'courts of love' in which titled ladies answered queries and handed down decisions about l'amour courtois. In Andrew's time, if we may credit his account, the leading lady in this procedure was the princess poetess Marie, Countess of Champagne. A generation earlier it had been her mother, the most fascinating woman in feudal society, Eleanor, Duchess of Aquitaine, sometime Queen of France and later of England. Occasionally, according to the Tractatus, mother and daughter presided together as judges in the court of love at Poitiers.

    "Andrew knew Marie well, served her as chaplain, and apparently wrote his book to publish her theories and judgments of love. He says:-'Love teaches everyone to abound in good manners.'

    "Under Marie's tutelage, we are assured, the rough aristocracy of Poitiers became a society of generous women and gallant men."

    Would you folks agree that love teaches one to have good manners?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 21, 2005 - 04:31 am
    Here is a detailed explanation of COURTLY LOVE.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 21, 2005 - 04:38 am
    Click HERE to read more about Eleanor of Aquitaine.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 21, 2005 - 05:24 am
    How about "ORDINARY" LOVE in our times?

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 21, 2005 - 06:22 am

    "Tractatus de amore et de amoris remedio (Treatise on Love and Its Cure)"


    I smile at this. Romantic love needs a cure?

    Actually, it goes along with my idea that being "in love" is a kind of madness, a type of obsessive-compulsive disease. The lust or love (and what is the difference when you're "in love"?) that brings about this state does indeed blind one to realities like snoring, body odor, selfishness, nagging, impulses to watch football games rather than gaze into a damsel's pools-of-heavenly- blue eyes, and all kinds of realistic deterrents ---like the guy doesn't have a job and doesn't much like to work; or "he drinks too much, but I'll forgive him because he has so much potential, and most of all, I love him so much", on and on.

    When you think about the fun and games of medieval "Courtly Love", you begin to realize that all those mannerly poses and the fervent poetry spoken while in an uncomfortable position on one bony, masculine knee serve only one purpose -- for the man to possess the woman. Where? In bed, where else? Once that is done, he can go off and fight his knightly battles, her kerchief tied to his lance, and forget about her. She, on the other hand, daydreams and night dreams about HER HERO, who will rescue her from her humdrum, boring courtly life, or later in history, from her Cinderella status of having to wash floors for ugly stepsisters, or type boring reports all day long for whomever. That's what I wanted, and it's what I was taught by the books I read and movies I saw and the aunt who raised me and couldn't wait to marry me off to some eligible young knight going to battle in a Chevy after he'd jousted with and conquered that mammoth adversary "Education".

    Love isn't responsible for manners, the respect of one individual for others is. I don't dismiss some of the really lovely poetry that has come from the idea of Romantic Love, but the sooner we get over romantic ideas about men and women and their relationships with one another and glorified, romantic ideas about war and the people who instigate and fight those battles to protect their castles and the often misguided dreams and beliefs that built them, the better oft we'll all be.

    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 21, 2005 - 07:04 am

    Some pictures from the Manessische Liederhandschrift that Traude mentioned

    More pictures from the Manessische Liederhandschrift. Click to enlarge

    Courtly love from the Manessische Liederhandschrift

    Scrawler
    October 21, 2005 - 12:04 pm
    It is interesting that not only in our society today that justice is blind, but love is blind as well. Or are the people in our society the only ones that are really blind and not the symbols of justice and love.

    Rich7
    October 21, 2005 - 04:09 pm
    An exhaustive search of the internet hasn't really given me any definitive information on the true origin of chivalry. However, there were occasional references to Arab and pagan influences, giving more credence to Durant's statement that it was not a Christain invention. (paraphrasing)

    What I find interesting is that chivalry also evolved in Japan during their own feudal times, even though Japan was physically and culturally far separated from Europe. The Japanese had a different word for their chivalry. They called it Bushido.

    http://www.worldspirituality.org/bushido-ethical.html

    Maybe the age of chivalry is part of the natural maturation of a civilization. i.e. the teen age years?

    Rich

    Traude S
    October 21, 2005 - 06:46 pm
    MAL, many thanks for providing the links in your #363.

    ROBBY, love can INSPIRE a great many things but I doubt it can teach good manners.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 22, 2005 - 04:56 am
    "The Dark Ages are not a period upon which the scholar can look with superior scorn.

    "He no longer denounces their ignorance and superstition, their political disintegration, their economic and cultural poverty. He marvels, rather, that Europe ever recovered from the successive blows of Goths, Huns, Vandals, Moslems, Magyars, and Norse and preserved through the turmoil and tragedy so much of ancient letters and techniques.

    "He can feel only admiration for the Charlemagnes, Alfreds, Olafs, and Ottos who forced an order upon this chaos -- for the Benedicts, Gregorys, Bonifaces, Columbas, Alcuins, Brunos who so patiently resurrected morals and letters out of the wilderness of their times -- for the prelates and artisans that could raise cathedrals and the nameless poets that could sing.

    "Between one war or terror and the next State and Church had to begin again at the bottom as Rolmulus and Numa had done a thousand years before.

    "And the courage required to build cities out of jungles and citizens out of savages was greater than that which would raise Chartres, Amiens, and Reims or cool Dante's vengeful fever into measured verse."

    Any final comments about the Dark Ages?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 22, 2005 - 05:05 am
    The Crusades

    1095-1291

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 22, 2005 - 05:11 am
    Note the changes in the GREEN quotes above indicating where we are headed.

    "The Crusades were the culminating act of the medieval drama and perhaps the most picturesque event in the history of Europe and the Near East.

    "Now at last, after centuries of argument, the two great faiths, Christianity and Mohammedanism, resorted to man's ultimate arbitrament -- the supreme court of war.

    "All medieval development, all the expansion of commerce and Christendom, all the fervor of religious belief, all the power of feudalism and glamor of chivalry came to a climax in a Two Hundred Years' War for the soul of man and the profits of trade."

    Does any of this ring a bell as we look at the daily news? Is history repeating itself? Is this discussion group becoming more meaningful as we examine the period of man's "growth" in which we live?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 22, 2005 - 09:37 am
    The CHRISTIAN-MUSLIM CONFLICT continues?

    Robby

    MeriJo
    October 22, 2005 - 09:49 am
    The "Dark Ages" were not "dark," it appears. Much was accomplished, in the arts, law, literature, government, societal behavior, and other fields, and much was recorded or depicted at the time.

    They were identified as "dark", possibly, because much activity was localized. Countries had not ventured forth from Europe much. There was concern for local safety, especially from invaders and marauders.

    Scrawler
    October 22, 2005 - 11:32 am
    I would say that the "dark age" was considered dark because of the superstitions that were part of everyone's lives. But it is interesting that according to "Panati's Extraordinary Origins etc": "Superstitious beliefs, given their irrational nature, should have receded with the arrival of education and the advent of science. Yet even today, when objective evidence is vauled highly, few people, if pressed, would not admit to secretly cherishing one, or two, or many supersitions..." (p.1)

    Rich7
    October 22, 2005 - 12:24 pm
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Ages

    This site gives a clear and concise explanation as to how the Dark Ages came to be known as such.

    It appears that Petrarch coined the name around 1330. He did not mean the "dark" appellation to be an anti-religious negative, but merely to designate a period during which little cultural achievement was attained. (As compared to the prior Roman era).

    Writers with an anti-church ax to grind such as Kant and Voltaire later adopted Petrarch's expression as the description of an era dominated by superstition and dominance of the people and institutions by the Church.

    Rich

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 23, 2005 - 04:19 am
    "The first proximate cause of the Crusades was the advance of the Seljuq Turks.

    "The world had adjusted itself to Moslem control of the Near East. The Fatimids of Egypt had ruled mildly in Palestine. Barring some exceptions, the Christian sects there had enjoyed a wide liberty of worship.

    "Al-Hakim, the mad caliph of Cairo, had destroyed the church of the Holy Sepulcher (1010), but the Mohammedans themselves had contributed substantially to its restoration. In 1047 the Moslem traveler Nasir-i-Khosru described it as 'a most spacious building, capable of holding 8000 persons and built with the utmost skill. Inside, the church is everywhere adorned with Byzantine brocade, worked in gold and they have portrayed Jesus-peace by upon Him - riding upon an ass.'

    "This was but one of many Christian churches in Jerusalem. Christian pilgrims had free access to the holy places. A pilgrimage to Palestine had long been a form of devotion or penance.

    "Everywhere in Europe one met 'palmers' who, as a sign of pilgrimage accomplished, wore crossed palm leaves from Palentine. such men, said Piers Plowman, 'had leave to lie all their lives thereafter.'

    "But in 1070 the Turks took Jerusalem from the Fatimids and pilgrims began to bring home accounts of oppression and descration. An old story, not verifiable, relates that one warfarer, Peter the Hermit, brought to Pope Urban II, from Simeon, Patriarch of Jerusalem, a letter detailing the persecution of Christians there and imploring papal aid (1088)."

    Interesting comment:-"The world had adjusted itself." Everything fine until one group began to oppress the other.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 23, 2005 - 05:16 am
    Is THIS an example of oppression of religion?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 23, 2005 - 05:32 am
    Or do RELIGION AND COMMERCE go together?

    Durant, in talking about the start of the Crusades, spoke not only about the "soul of man" but the "profits of trade."

    Robby

    Bubble
    October 23, 2005 - 06:07 am
    #375 It is also commercial coersion when, on opening that link, I have to wait 2 whole minutes with publicity running over my screen before I'm able to see what the site is about.

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    October 23, 2005 - 06:19 am
    Re post #375 - The real issue.

    Why not call a spade a spade. It might not be so much a religious issue as a water issue. Arizona with its dry, hot climate needs all the water it can get. For Indians it is even more important to use ‘natural’ water coming from the snow melts than water that has come down from “recycled” water that the ski resorts would use for making artificial snow.

    ”made 205 phone calls and exchanged 245 letters with members of the tribes - and found nothing environmentally egregious about using the treated sewage, known as reclaimed water. The resort balked at using fresh water because it is so scarce in Arizona, Mr. Borowsky said.

    "Nora B. Rasure, the supervisor of the Coconino National Forest, wrote this year in the report that the resort "has and continued to provide a valuable recreational experience to many people, and that in order to continue providing that experience in today's physical and business environment, changes are needed

    "Ms. Rasure noted that none of the tribes performed ceremonies or maintained shrines within the resort property and that the improvements would involve only 205 acres.

    "Ms. Rasure, through a spokeswoman, declined an interview. Mixing mountain water with water that in an earlier, untreated form may have included waste from mortuaries or hospitals, Mr. Mapatis said, could infect members of his tribe with "ghost sickness," a disagreeable state difficult to cure.”


    This recycled water coming for sewage plants and hospitals blown on ski slopes? I would hate to ski on it. A claim that the run off from the mountain would be only a BIT SHORT OF BEING POTABLE WATER. I ask you, is skiing more important than preserving the health and religious practices of the fast dwindling Indian population in America? Or is it more important to provide skiing recreation than providing Indians with clean water. Of course a ski resort brings tax revenue whereas Indians don’t.

    Rich7
    October 23, 2005 - 08:25 am
    I recently moved to Arizona. (A magnificent state, by the way, with very friendly people.)

    A major item on my sightseeing agenda was a visit to the Grand Canyon. So, two weeks ago there I was.

    In my hotel, the toilet had a large sign taped to it stating "NON POTABLE WATER. DO NOT DRINK!"

    A sign on a toilet telling you not to drink the toilet water?

    Maybe the sign was there for dogs to read.

    Rich

    kiwi lady
    October 23, 2005 - 10:34 am
    When my son was in Yellowstone park he drank some tap water there and was violently ill with what I think was guardia from his description. He was an ignorant foreigner but they met up with other campers who were US citizens who had also been ill. He did not see any notices about not drinking the water.

    Eloise - It saddens me that so much is about the almighty dollar these days. We went through a stage where people were important ( after WW2 and up to the early eighties) and then reverted back to our old ways. I do realise the importance of a good economy but could we not have a balance. I have lived through a time where we had nobody who was dirt poor and now I am living through a time where the dirt poor are becoming numerous and the number of very rich increases each year. I prefer the former society myself.

    Justin
    October 23, 2005 - 01:12 pm
    The Crusades, starting in 1095, may have had a more profound impact on world civilization than WWll. When the Crusades began, Europe was culturally dark and laboring under widespread religious superstition. A century later,after 100 years of crusading in the east, Europe, particularly, France, Italy, and England, had advanced in cultural things sufficiently, to launch what has become known as the 12th Century Renaisance.

    The Crusades and their impact upon the east was so powerful that even today many Arabs consider that conflict just the first of a long series of military invasions of the east by the west.

    While the Crusades were launched ostensibly to make Christian pilgrin routes to the Holy Lands safe for travel, at the time of the first Crusade the routes were safe and guaranteed so by the Fatimids. A short interval of disruption of travel occurred just prior to the first crusade by the intervention of the Seljuk Turks. But these people had been expelled by 1095 and free travel had resumed. Slow communication was part of the problem but also once a project like a crusade is started it is impossible to stop even though the exciting cause has gone away.

    MeriJo
    October 23, 2005 - 04:02 pm
    There are different meanings for the Dark Ages. Not all prevail. Here are two. Scroll down a short way.

    Dark Ages

    The concept of the European Dark Ages thus began as an ideological campaign by humanists to promote Classical culture, and was therefore not a neutral historical analysis. It was invented to express disapproval of a period in time, and the promotion of another.

    MeriJo
    October 23, 2005 - 04:30 pm
    The Crusades:

    "Suddenly, in 1009, Hakem, the Fatimite Caliph of Egypt, in a fit of madness ordered the destruction of the Holy Sepulchre and all the Christian establishments in Jerusalem. For years thereafter Christians were cruelly persecuted. (See the recital of an eyewitness, Iahja of Antioch, in Schlumberger's "Epopée byzantine", II, 442.) In 1027 the Frankish protectorate was overthrown and replaced by that of the Byzantine emperors, to whose diplomacy was due the reconstruction of the Holy Sepulchre. The Christian quarter was even surrounded by a wall, and some Amalfi merchants, vassals of the Greek emperors, built hospices in Jerusalem for pilgrims, e.g. the Hospital of St. John, cradle of the Order of Hospitallers."

    It is impossible to discuss something like the Crusades in generalized terms referring to the Catholic Church and to Popes as primary causes. Yes, there was wrongdoing and superstition among some of the clergy and citizenry, but it was part of the environment of the times. It was a difficult time for the Popes and the Church with so many of its followers going along in ignorance of things pertaining to its teachings. There was also illness and illiteracy. Many other things formed a picture of the European population, also.

    A period of Crusades which extended over centuries needs to be studied objectively and with an understanding of the times.

    The Crusades

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 23, 2005 - 06:59 pm
    "The second proximate cause of the Crusades was the dangerous weakening of the Byzantine empire.

    "For seven centuries it had stood at the crossroads of Europe and Asia holding back the armies of Asia and the hordes of the steppes. Now its internal discords, its disruptive heresies, its isolation from the West by the schism of 1054, left it too feeble to fulfill its historic task.

    "While the Bulgars, Parzinaks, Cumans, and Russians assaulted its European gates, the Turks were dismembering its Asiatic provinces.

    "In 1071 the Byzantine army was almost annihilated at Manzikert. The Seljuqs captured Edessa, Antioch (1085), Tarsus, even Nicaea and gazed across the Bosporus at Constantinople itself.

    "The Emperor Alexius I (1081-1118) saved a part of Asia Minor by signing a humiliating peace but he had no military means of resisting further attack. If Constantinople should fall, all Eastern Europe would lie open to the Turks and the victory of Tours (732) would be undone.

    "Forgetting theological pride, Alexius sent delegates to Urban II and the Council of Pizcenza, urging Latin Europe to help him drive back the Turks.

    "It would be wiser, he argued, to fight the infidels on Asiatic soil than wait for them to swarm through the Balkans to the Western capitals."

    As I read the news these days, I notice the apparent separation between "Eastern Europe" and "Western Europe" -- the concentration on the Balkans which had been ignored so long by the West. I note also in the news these days an apparent effort for reconciliation between the Latin Western Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church.

    Might this have anything to do with the increasing strength of Islam?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 23, 2005 - 07:21 pm
    A movement from EASTERN EUROPE TO WESTERN EUROPE.

    Robby

    Justin
    October 23, 2005 - 09:12 pm
    Thus far in the discussion no blame has been assigned to the RC Church. It will come in for its just share in time. However, at this moment, about 1090 or so, Alexius of Constantinople is alarmed because the Seljuk Turks have captured much of the area between Constantinople and Jerusalem and he has asked for Latin help from Urban ll, who has very little military power at his command.

    Remember we are still in the Investiture crisis. Urban and the German western emperor are still at odds over rights so he won't help. Henry of Germany, you will recall, deposed Pope Gregory in 1080 and by 1085 Gregory is dead so there is still plenty of animosity to go around. Urban ll is the new guy on the block when Alexius asks for help.

    Military help in Europe is a scarce commodity. However, the barons, especially the Norman barons in the south of Italy are available and are willing to respond to the call for help if they can form new Kingdoms out of Jerusalem and environs. So "manifest destiny" is a third cause that was unrelated to Church pressure.

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    October 24, 2005 - 12:11 am
    CRUSADER CROSS FLAGS 1188

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 24, 2005 - 02:45 am
    "The third proximate cause of the Crusades was the ambition of the Italian cities -- Pisa, Genoa, Venice, Armalfi -- to extend their rising commercial power.

    "When the Normans captured Sicily from the Moslems (1060-91) and Christian arms reduced Moslem rule in Spain (1085f), the western Mediterranean was freed for Christian trade. The Italian cities, as ports of exit for domestic and transalpine products, grew rich and strong and planned to end Moslem ascendancy in the eastern Mediterranean and open the markets of the Near East to West European goods.

    "We do not know how close these Italian merchants were to the ear of the Pope."

    I keep wondering -- do war and trade always go together?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 24, 2005 - 02:48 am
    Facts about 11th century PISA.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 24, 2005 - 02:53 am
    Facts about MEDIEVAL GENOA.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 24, 2005 - 04:09 am
    What was (is) AN ARAB?

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 24, 2005 - 07:29 am

    The Medieval Crusades

    Crusades (from the Catholic Encyclopedia)

    Rich7
    October 24, 2005 - 08:39 am
    Although Shakespeare was not referring to the Church's calls to the Crusades when he wrote these lines in Richard III, he could have been.

    But then I sigh, and with a piece of scripture,

    Tell them that God bids us do good for evil;

    And thus I clothe my naked villany

    With odd old ends stol'n forth of Holy Writ,

    And seem a saint when most I play the devil.

    Rich

    MeriJo
    October 24, 2005 - 10:22 am
    It is convenient to mention that the Roman Catholic Church was responsible for the problems of Europe during the medieval period which led to the Crusades, but in effect, the Pope could not have urged the people to go on a Crusade. In both Mal's and my link - we each offer the same link from the Catholic Encyclopedia - the crusades were in response to a vow and the result of previous unhappy journeys into the Holy Land. All else followed.

    The Church is the people in it. It is not a defined entity. Its leader is the Pope. It may be important to identify the Pope as the Church at this time, but it is also important to what degree there was lack of knowledge and understanding among many regarding the teachings of Jesus.

    There were various interpretations and misunderstandings. For example, Piers Plowman, had to be mistaken when he said that individuals could lie the rest of their lives as a result of fulfilling some religious endeavor - a pilgrimage, I think. This could never be as it would be directly against the commandment of not bearing false witness.

    "Everywhere in Europe one met 'palmers' who, as a sign of pilgrimage accomplished, wore crossed palm leaves from Palentine. such men, said Piers Plowman, 'had leave to lie all their lives thereafter.'

    This was a very turbulent time for all as truth and error sought to be explained and become a guide to a philosophy for a system of living.

    Fifi le Beau
    October 24, 2005 - 10:22 am
    Rich, thank you for those lines from Shakespeare. They ring as true for leaders today as they did for Richard 111. How many grab those odd old ends of supposedly holy writ to sucker in the believers to do their works of evil?

    This very scenario is being played out again today by those who wrap themselves in religious writ. One fanatic living in a cave, and the other living in a White House.

    Fifi

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 24, 2005 - 11:04 am

    I offered the link to the definition of the Crusades in the Catholic Encyclopedia only for comparison purposes with the first Crusade link I posted. This discussion is an investigation for me, not an assertion of one belief over another.

    Mal

    Rich7
    October 24, 2005 - 11:09 am
    Wasn't that the slogan under which Pope Urban II launched the first crusade in 1095?

    Rich

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 24, 2005 - 02:40 pm
    "The final decision came from Urban himself.

    "Other popes had entertained the idea. Gerbert, as Sylvester II, had appealed to Christendom to rescue Jerusalem and an abortive expedition had landed in Syria (c.1001).

    "Gregory VII, amid his consuming strife with Henry IV, had exclaimed:-'I would rather expose my life in delivering the holy places than reign over the universe.'

    "That quarrel was still hot when Urban presided over the Council of Piacenza in March of 1095. He supported the plea of Alexius' legates there but counseled delay until a more widely representative assembly might consider a war against Islam.

    "He was too well informed to picture victory as certain in so distant an enterprise. He doubtless foresaw that failure would seriously damage the prestige of Christianity and the Church. Probably he longed to channel the disorderly pugnacity of feudal barons and Norman buccaneers into a holy war to save Europe and Byzantium from Islam. He dreamed of bringing the Eastern Church again under papal rule and visioned a mighty Christendom united under the theocracy of the popes with Rome once more the capital of the world.

    "It was a conception of the highest order of statsmanship.

    "From March to October of 1095 he toured northern Italy and southern France sounding out leaders and ensuring support.

    "At Clermont in Auvergne the historic council met and although it was a cold November, thousands of people came from a hundred communities, pitched their tents in the open fields, gathered in a vast assemblage that no hall could hold and throbbed with emotion as their fellow Frenchman Urban, raised on a platform in their midst, addressed to them in French the most influential speech in medieval history."

    The power of the spoken word!

    Robby

    Traude S
    October 24, 2005 - 02:43 pm
    ROBBY, were you asking about the ethnicity of Arabs (and by extension of Arab Americans)? Taken from that angle, I don't fully understand the point of the NYT article.

    Is there an overlapping regarding their Muslim faith, perhaps? A faith Arabs share, of course, with thousands upon thousands of non-Arabs.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 24, 2005 - 02:44 pm
    Five versions of THE SPEECH. Take your choice.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 24, 2005 - 02:56 pm
    "Through the crowd an excited exxlamation rose -- Dieu li volt -- 'God wills it!'

    "Urban took it up and called upon them to make it their battle cry. He bade those who undertook the crusade to wear a cross upon brow or breast.

    "Says William of Malmesbury:-'At once some of the nobility, falling down at the knees of the Pope, consecreated themselves and their property to the service of God.' Thousands of the commonalty pledged themselves likewise. Monks and hermits left their retreats to become in no metaphysical sense soldiers of Christ.

    "The energetic Pope passed to other cities -- Tours, Bordeaux, Toulouse, Montpellier, Nimes -- and for nine months preached the crusade. When he reached Rome after two years' absence, he was enthusiastically acclaimed by the least pious city in Christendom.

    "He assumed, with no serious opposition, the authority to release Crusaders from commitments hindering the crusade. He freed the serf and the vassal for the duration of the war, from fealty to their lord. He conferred upon all Crusaders the privilege of being tried by ecclesiastical instead of manorial courts and guaranteed them, during their absence, the episcopal protection of their property.

    "He commanded -- although he could not quite enforce -- a truce to all wars of Christians against Christians. He established a new principle of obedience above the code of feudal loyalty. Now, more than ever, Europe ws made one. Urban found himself the accepted master, at least in theory, of Europe's kings.

    "All Christendom was moved as never before as it feverishly prepared for the holy war."

    The continent of Europe which, in these days, tends to be more secular than religious, in those days became one entity under the name of God.

    Your comments, please?

    Robby

    MeriJo
    October 24, 2005 - 04:56 pm
    Mal:

    I am sorry. I am not asserting any belief over another. I felt that the Catholic Encyclopedia would be the best resource about the Crusades.

    It was interesting to me that we both chose the same one.

    MeriJo
    October 24, 2005 - 05:26 pm
    Urged by necessity, I, Urban . . . is the key phrase. Urban had been asked by the Byzantine emperor to come to his aid against the Muslims.

    We know that Popes held temporal power then, and as the dominant philosophical, religious leader would have responded as he did. And certainly was effective in forming the first crusade.

    It was not too long after the persecutions of Christians that Urban gave his advice to leave family and property behind and serve God. This was according to his lights and understanding. The early Christian martyrs had chosen death faced with the threat of it if they did not renounce Christianity. The thoughts of martyrs were in the minds of the people.

    Rich7
    October 24, 2005 - 05:57 pm
    MeriJo, I have great respect for your opinion and thoroughly enjoy your thoughtful postings, but citing the Catholic Encyclopedia as the best source on the Crusades is not what I would expect of you.

    The Catholic Pope (Urban II) was the instigator and chief early enabler of the Crusades. How can we expect the Catholic Encyclopedia to give an unbiased rendition of the ensuing events?

    Rich

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 24, 2005 - 06:13 pm
    Rich:-I can't speak for MeriJo but when I link to citations, that does not necessarily mean they are what to me are the "best" citations. In fact, I invite participants to comment on these links and always suggest that we "consider the source."

    Robby

    Rich7
    October 24, 2005 - 06:51 pm
    Robby, I agree. However go back and read postion 402. That posting states that the Catholic Encyclopedia would be the best reference on the Crusades.

    Rich

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 25, 2005 - 02:48 am
    The First Crusade

    1095-99

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 25, 2005 - 03:00 am
    "Extraordinary inducements brought multitudes to the standard.

    "A plenary indulgence remitting all punishments due to sin was offered to those who should fall in the war.

    "Serfs were allowed to leave the soil to which they had been bound.

    "Citizens were exempted from taxes, debtors enjoyed a moratorium on interest.

    "Prisoners freed and sentences of death were commuted, by a bold extension of papal authority, to life service in Palestine.

    "Thousands of vagrants joined in the sacred tramp. Men tired of hopeless poverty -- adventurers ready for brave enterprise -- younger ones hoping to carve out fiefs for themselves in the East -- merchants seeking new markets for their goods -- knights whose enlisting serfs had left them laborless.

    "Timid spirits shunning taunts of cowardice joined with sincerely religious souls to rescue the land of Christ's birth and death.

    "Propaganda of the kind customary in war stressed the disabilities of Christians in Palestine, the atrocities of Moslems, the blasphemies of the Mohammedan creed. Moslems were desdribed as worshiping a statue of Mohammed and pious gossip related how the Prophet, fallen in an epileptic fit, had been eaten alive by hogs.

    "Fabulous tales were told of Oriental wealth and of dark beauties waiting to be taken by brave men."

    Citizens originally caught up in a spell of mass hypnosis after the Pope's speech now found themselves caught up in a massive public relations campaign.

    How fortunate that we are not susceptible to such actions these days.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 25, 2005 - 05:04 am

    ROBBY, surely you jest !

    Mal

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    October 25, 2005 - 07:11 am
    Mal, you should know him by now.

    They promised freedom to prisoners at the risk of losing it and die, but they were fed better going to war than in prison. They promised wealth, what better enticement for hordes of a miserable population and they came back with the wealth of the orient and changed the way people ate and clothed themselves forever. Is this the growth of civilization?

    The Balkens and the Middle East have always been the battleground between East and West and even if the standards carried one ideology or the other in the name of religion, the fundamental reason for war is and always will be for the almighty dollar for which humans are prepared to make any sacrifice and even die for it.

    Rich7
    October 25, 2005 - 07:20 am
    The Church promised "A plenary indulgence remitting all punishment due to sin to those who should fall in this war."

    Translation: If you, Mr Crusader, do what we want, and you are killed in the process, you will go straight to heaven, no questions asked.

    Today we read of jihadists (sp?) being sold the same bill of goods, and we ask ourselves how can anybody buy that?

    Rich

    Fifi le Beau
    October 25, 2005 - 10:34 am
    Another inducement to war.......

    "He conferred upon all Crusaders the privilege of being tried by ecclesiastical instead of manorial courts"

    The 'law of the land' would no longer apply, and any crimes committed against the populace on the journey would not allow them to charge and try the accused by their own laws.

    This same principle is being applied today, but there is an attempt to exempt certain 'participants' from any courts whatever. These 'participants' order the torture and over see it while the twenty year old PFC in the room gets charged and tried, not by the State where it occurred, but by those who sent him to war.

    The same principle that Urban ordered a thousand years ago.

    Fifi

    MeriJo
    October 25, 2005 - 11:56 am
    Rich7:

    Your point is well taken. I would have preferred having a different source. I have noticed in the past, however, that the Catholic Encyclopedia doesn't color its information. It was the most complete I could find on Google - much detail and one could spend days clicking each underlined word for additional information. The Medieval Sourcebook from Fordham University (Paul Halsall) is more blunt.

    There is no doubt that Urban did whip up the crowd, but then it seems to me that since time began for us humans someone always rose up to whip up a crowd into a mood to become aggressive.

    This was no different. As a temporal power he could commit his troops and urge others to go assist the Byzantine emperor recover his lands and to combine with that mission an aggressive response to the many acts of mayhem against the Christian pilgrims. Before the mad Caliph destroyed the Church of the Holy Sepulchre and turned against the pilgrimages, Christians had been allowed to go freely into the Holy Land.

    An unknown element in the Crusades that was not taken into consideration at the time nor in subsequent histories of them - the latter probably to save space or because they were deemed insignificant by the authors is that the voyage/trip to the Holy land took so long. Enthusiasm subsided in the crusaders, also tempers grew short and to climax the whole thing there occurred illnesses and injuries. People are people and all the lofty religious motives can take a different turn in such an environment.

    The Crusades in my opinion were a dreadful mistake. I do believe not even the military who appeared to lead the groups had any idea of the perils of such an undertaking. They just did not know - or if a few knew that knowledge was not fully comprehended by enough leaders.

    The only thing that the Crusades did in my opinion was to introduce a new dimension to the then known world.

    Traude S
    October 25, 2005 - 12:05 pm
    ROBBY, you did mean mass hysteria rather than mass hypnosis , I take it?

    RICH, agree. What people are taught and (choose to) learn, especially about history, depends on where they grow up. The respective national and, of necessity, SUBjective outlook would clearly tend to prevail. Decades, sometimes centuries, are needed to arrive at an objective overview and tentative understanding.
    Mercifully, it took much, much less than that for the Germans to recognize the evils of Nazism, and especiallhy the Holocaust.

    Actually, Durant himself left some of us puzzled here recently with his (obviously subjective) enthusiastic reference to the exceptional ... plentiful young men and good killing . There is no such thing as "good killing"; the very word is an oxymoron.

    kiwi lady
    October 25, 2005 - 03:17 pm
    Traude I agree with you and I wonder which New Testament these Crusaders were reading. I wonder the same thing about what is going on today in the name of God by professed Christians.

    MeriJo
    October 25, 2005 - 04:28 pm
    Kiwi Lady:

    They probably couldn't read, and even if they could there was no book available - maybe a scroll or a codex - containing the New Testament. This was the eleventh century!

    Don't forget, initially this was to restore lands to the Byzantine emperor and to protect and make safe pilgrimages to the Holy Land.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 25, 2005 - 04:43 pm

    Traude:--I meant "hypnosis." Large groups can be hypnotized and can remain so for long periods of time under the proper environmental stimulation. Hysteria and hypnosis are related in many ways.

    Robby

    MeriJo
    October 25, 2005 - 04:47 pm
    Rich7:

    Re: Plenary indulgences - These are akin to an absolution in the sense of what a Catholic receives upon the making of a good confession. It would have been very important then in the eleventh century and would be important now. Not too many situations offer plenary indulgences, but since one may "sin" seventy times seven in a short period of time it would have been appealing to a Christian then.

    . . . Peter, he went on to ask his Master, how often!he should forgive a brother who had sinned against him; and he enquired whether seven times would be enough. "The Lord answered him, Not only seven times, but seventy times seven. Matthew 17: 21

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 25, 2005 - 05:11 pm
    "Such a variety of motives could hardly assemble a homogeneous mass capable of military organization.

    "In many cases women and children insisted upon accompanying their husbands or parents perhaps with reason for prostitutes soon enlisted to serve the warriors.

    "Urban had appointed the month of August, 1096, as the time of departure but the impatient peasants who were the first recruits could not wait.

    "One such host, numbering some 12,000 persons (of whom only eight were knights) set out from France in March under Peter the Hermit and Walter the Penniless (Gautier sans-Avoir).

    "Another, perhaps 5000 strong, started from Germany under the priest Gottschalk.

    "A third advanced from the Rhineland under Count Emico of Leiningen. It was chiefly these disorderly bands that attacked the Jews of Germany and Bohemia, rejected the appeals of the local clergy and citizenry and degenerated for a time into brutes phrasing their blood lust in piety.

    "The recruits had brought modest funds and little food and their inexperienced leaders had made scant provision for feeding them. Many of the marchers had underestimated the distance and as they advanced along the Rhine and the Danube the children asked impatiently, at each turn, was not this Jerusalem? When their funds ran out and they began to starve, they were forced to pillage the fields and homes on their route. Soon they added rape to rapine.

    "The population resisted violently. Some towns closed their gates against them and others bade them Godspeed with no delay.

    "Arriving at last before Constantinople quite penniless and decimated by famine, plague, leprosy, fever and battles on the way, they were welcomed by Alexius but not satisfactorily fed. They broke into the suburbs and plundered churches, houses, and palaces. To deliver his capital from these praying locusts, Alexius provided them with vessels to cross the Bosporus, sent them supplies, and bade them wait until better armed detchments could arrive.

    "Whether through hunger or restlessness, the Crusaders ignored these instructions and advanced upon Nicaea. A disciplined force of Turks, all skilled bowmen, marched out from the city and almost annihilated this first division of the First Crusade.

    "Walter the Penniless was among the slain. Peter the hermit, disgusted with his uncontrollable host, had returned before the battle to Constantinople and lived safely until 1115."

    According to the above, wives had strong reasons for remaining with their husbands. Or, looking at it from the other direction, husbands had strong incentive to enlist.

    Eight knights per 12,000 "soldiers." If my arithmetic is correct, that is one officer for each 1,500 enlisted man.

    Hungry hordes looted the local provisions. Why does that make me think of New Orleans?

    I, for one would not follow a leader called "Penniless."

    And finally, the eternal cry -- Daddy, are we there yet?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 25, 2005 - 05:19 pm
    Definition of RAPINE.

    Robby

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    October 25, 2005 - 05:21 pm
    I am glad MariJo that you are reminding us that we must put ourselves in the time period people were living during the period we are looking at now. In this discussion we often wonder why people behaved the way they did and forget that 90% or more couldn't read, let alone write.

    All the populace knew at that time, was something they heard from the clergy or from their landlords which was more often than not colored by their own perception of facts. Even today people prefer watching television than reading books.

    MeriJo
    October 25, 2005 - 08:13 pm
    Thanks Eloise.

    That's why I said earlier these Crusades were a dreadful mistake.

    They were exactly as Durant describes the disarray.

    Sunknow
    October 25, 2005 - 08:21 pm
    Fifi - Yes, your #412 mention of the parallels between "then" and "now" are hard to avoid. I agree that it is very difficult for me to NOT compare our times to theirs.

    Merijo said "Urban did "whip up the crowd" and I must tell you the first thing that came to my mind in that regard is the future event being pushed in the headline now......the coming Million More Men March". Imagination is not required to know how that crowd will be "whipped up." Indeed, I think they should encourage the million men to stay home and participate in the upbringing of their sons. But like the Crusades, it is the firebrand heat of mob that drives them, not planning, and rationalization.

    Eloise - You are correct about what the populace knew at the time of the Crusades, and that we are looking back with knowledge of the events. I'm afraid some of our future generations will be described the same way. I hate to think that our current generation may be the last of the well read. Is that egotistical? Maybe they will learn as much from the easier sources, not needing the book itself, but I hate to think it (and don't believe it).

    Sun

    Justin
    October 25, 2005 - 10:17 pm
    I doubt anything in the New Testament was useful in convincing people to enlist in the cause. It is more likely people responded to slogans such as "God wills it." Very few people were able read in those days. Narative painting and sculpture in the churches served to tell the Christian story.

    Economic profit was high on the list of enlistment motivators. The Barons of the later (1099) first crusade, especially the Normans from Greek Italy were interested in establishing a new kingdom carved out of Jerusalem.

    It is also clear that many poor folks "wore the cross" for religious reasons and many of those trailing along with "Peter and The Penniless German"were wiped out by the Turks at Nicea.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 26, 2005 - 03:04 am
    "By diverse routes these hosts made their way to Constantinople.

    "Bohemund proposed to Godfrey that they seize the city. Godfrey refused, saying that he had come only to fight infidels.

    "But the idea did not die. The masculine half-barbarous knights of the West despised these subtle and cultured gentlemen of the East as heretics lost in effeminate luxury. They looked with astonishment and envy up;on the riches laid up in the churches, palaces, and markets of the Byzantine capital and thought that fortune should belong to the brave.

    "Alexius may have gotten wind of these notions among his saviors. His experience with the peasant horde (for whose defeat the West had censured him) inclined him to caution, perhaps to duplicity. He had asked for assistance against the Turks but he not bargained upon the united strength of Europe gathering at his gates. He could never be sure whether these warriors aspired to Jerusalem so mcuch as to Constantinople nor whether they would restore to his Empire any formerly Byzantine territory that they might take from the Turks.

    "He offered the Crusaders provisions, subsidies, transport, military aid and, for the leaders, handsome bribes. In return he asked that the nobles should swear allegiance to him as their feudal sovereign. Any lands taken by them were to be held in fealty to him.

    "The nobles, softened with silver, swore.

    "Early in 1097 the armies, totaling some 30,000 men, still under divided leadership, crossed the straits.

    "Luckily, the Moslems were even more divided than the Christians. Not only was Moslem power in Spain spent and in northern Africa rent with religious faction, but in the East the Fatimid caliphs of Egypt held southern Syria, while their foes, the Seljuq Turks, held northern Syria and most of Asia Minor.

    "Armenia rebelled agains its Seljuq conquerors and allied itself with the 'Franks". So helped, the arms of Europe advanced to the siege of Nicaea.

    "On Alexius' pledge that their lives should be spared, the Turkish garrison surrendered (June 19, 1097). The Greek Emperor raised the Imperial flag over the citadel, protected the city from indiscriminate pillage and appeased the feudal leaders with substantial gifts.

    "But the Christian soldiery complained that Alexius was in league with the Turks. After a week's rest, the Crusaders set out for Antioch. They met a Turkish army under Qilij Arslan near Dorylacum, won a bloody battle (July 1, 1097) and marched through Asia Minor with no other enemies than a shortage of water and food and a degree of heat for which the Western blood was unprepared. Men, women, horses and dogs died of thirst on that bitter march of 500 miles.

    "Crossing the Taurus, some nobles separated their forces from the main army to make private conquests -- Raymond, Bohemund, and Godfrey in Armenia -- Tancred and Baldwin (brother of Godfrey) in Edessa.

    "There Baldwin, by strategy and treachery, founded the first Latin principality in the East (1098). The mass of the Crusaders complained ominously at these dalays.

    "The nobles returned and the advance to Antioch was resumed."

    Once again, while we talk of the "continent of Europe," we see the division (geographically and culturally) between Eastern Europe and Western Europe. From this it appears that in those days Eastern Europe was more advanced culturally. Western Europe was more "barbarous." Today?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 26, 2005 - 03:09 am
    The story of BALDWIN IN EDESSA.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 26, 2005 - 03:13 am
    Here is a MAP OF ARMENIA.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 26, 2005 - 03:18 am
    Here is some ARMENIAN HISTORY.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 26, 2005 - 05:52 am

    With 2000 Americans, and heaven knows how many military personnel from other countries, plus approximately 30,000 civilians dead in the Iraq war, one wonders what the total number of fatalities was in the Crusades.

    Mal

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    October 26, 2005 - 06:27 am
    Mal, here is a LINK where it says that around 9 millions died in the crusades, half of which were Christians.

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 26, 2005 - 07:48 am

    Deus li voit from the BBC

    Rich7
    October 26, 2005 - 08:27 am
    and the word of your president.

    Take your pick.

    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/10/08/MNGL9F4JRR1.DTL

    Rich

    Fifi le Beau
    October 26, 2005 - 10:28 am
    If you don't like the Palestinians, how about the Amish? There are dozens of citations that could be used, but I don't think Robby would approve a page full of links.

    Foot in mouth disease

    Fifi

    Scrawler
    October 26, 2005 - 11:00 am
    The cause of any war lurking in the depths, seems to me, to be power and land. I don't see it being different for the Crusades. As the East grew weaker, the desires for power and land grew stronger in the West. What's the format today: "Join the Army and see the world!" I don't see much of a difference in today's world as there was at the time of the Crusades.

    Rich7
    October 26, 2005 - 12:19 pm
    of Crusader knights. Especially well depicted are the Knights Templar and Knights Hospitallier in full uniform.

    http://myweb.ecomplanet.com/kirk6479/mycustompage0022.htm

    Rich

    MeriJo
    October 26, 2005 - 02:44 pm
    Why is it thought that one must dislike someone else? It isn't pleasant being the butt of discrimination be it nationality or religion. Unless one has been such a target one does not know the depth of hurt that it presents.

    In its purest form the Crusades were a tremendously misguided attempt to right wrongs. Tangential to a possible successful campaign there came the prospect of power and land.

    In addition to reconquering Jerusalem what happened was upheaval and disaster and epidemic illness. These leaders had no concept of logistics and what was needed in the way of supplies and which route would be better at a certain time of year - they had no idea of what they would encounter. In short they brought these poor illiterate folks as sheep to a slaughter.

    Maybe they learned from that. I don't know. Perhaps as we progress through the remaining seven crusades we'll see what positive things were gleaned.

    There is no doubt that a lot of thinking went on at all levels of inelligence and education. Some events were recorded as we know so there was a reference for those who wished to use it.

    (I think anyone sensing a marvelous novel here ought to go for it. I do - it would be terrific - perhaps on the order of Clavell's (?sp.) "Shogun" only in the trek from Europe to the Holy Land. I'm sure someone other than Scott's "Ivanhoe" must have written of this period. I just can't think of anyone at this point.)

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 26, 2005 - 02:55 pm
    "At last, on June 7, 1099, after a campaign of three years, the Crusaders, reduced to 12,000 combatants, stood in exaltation and fatigue before the walls of Jerusalem.

    "By the humor of history, the Turks whom they had come to fight had been expelled from the city by the Fatimids a year before. The caliph offered peace on terms of guaranteed safety for Christian pilgrims and worshipers in Jerusalem but Bohemund and Godfrey demanded unconditional surrender.

    "The Fatimid garrison of 1000 men resisted for forty days. On July 15 Godfrey and Tancred led their followers over the walls and the Crusaders knew the ecstasy of a high purpose accomplished after heroic suffering. Then, reports the priestly eyewitness Raymond of Agiles: -'wonderful things were to be seen. Numbers of the Saracens were beheaded. Others were shot with arrows, or forced to jump from the towers. Others were tortured for seveal days and then burned in flames. In the streets were seen piles of heads and hands and feet. One rode about everywhere amid the corpses of men and horses.'

    "Other contemporaries contribute details:-women were stabbed to death, suckling babes were snatched by the leg from their mothers' breasts and flung over the walls or had their necks broken by being dashed against posts. And 70,000 Moslems remaining in the city were slaughtered. The surviving Jews were herded into a synagogue and burned alive. The victors flocked to the church of the Holy Sepulcher, whose grotto, they believed, had once held the crucified Christ.

    "There, embracing one another, they wept with joy and release and thanked the God of Mercies for their victory."

    HALLELUJAH!!

    Robby

    MeriJo
    October 26, 2005 - 02:55 pm
    Rich7:

    The illustrations are particularly good.

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    October 26, 2005 - 03:28 pm
    MeriJo: we discussed Les Pérégrones a novel written by this excellent French Historian about the First Crusade, but it was in French. What we are reading here is very familiar to me, as some of the most famous names such as Geoffroi de Bouillon, was at the center of the novel. It was the story of 4 young women who went along with their parents on the Crusade from the city of Chartres in France to Jerusalem.

    LES PEREGRINES

    Rich7
    October 26, 2005 - 03:36 pm
    Thank you, MeriJo.

    Rich

    MeriJo
    October 26, 2005 - 03:51 pm
    Bush spoke:

    BBC spoke

    Reuter's spoke:

    http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L07157901.htm

    I do hope that this site can be free of any more jibes at our president and government and corporations.

    I read in the LATimes two days ago of the following atrocity: A hostile crowd including children grabbed four workers of Kellogg, Brown and Root who were there to help rebuild needed structures when one was shot in the back of the head with several rounds of bullets, two others were forced to kneel and then shot, but the fourth was doused with gasoline and set afire and the children in the crowd threw straw on the burning man as he screamed in pain and horror.

    Letting people know by way of a public message board how so many Americans seem to hate relentlessly. Hate, especially those who are where they are by reason of the reality that for years we have been attacked by people who just want to see Americans go away, will just encourage these foes to continue to assault Americans thinking that most Americans want them to do so. So often, these foes are being defended by those Americans who express their hatred so loudly and sarcastically. They can only think there is approval there, Hmm?

    Take your remarks to the Political Forum.

    Rich7
    October 26, 2005 - 03:53 pm
    A new word for me showed up in Robby's last posting of Durant's words: Jerusalem was found to be occupied not by Turks but by Fatimids.

    It turns out that they were an Egyptian Moslem dynasty supposedly descended from Mohammad's daughter, Fatima. They were Shites as well. The Fatimids governed Jerusalem in a religiously tolorant way, allowing Christains and Jews to participate in commerce and government.

    More about the Fatimids:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatimids

    Rich

    Justin
    October 26, 2005 - 04:27 pm
    The crusader attack on Jerusalem is just one more example of Christian zealatry gone awry. The attack was not necessary because the Turks were no longer in control of the city and the Fatimids had restored free access to all religions and certainly the brutal anihilation of an innocent populace given acceptable surrender terms was the work of savages. The barons wanted the city for a fief and it subsequently became just that as the Kingdom of Jerusalem under a European baron. Just think, we have seven more of these crusades to cover and each one is worse than the other.

    Justin
    October 26, 2005 - 04:50 pm
    Have we mentioned that Peter the Hermit and his companion, the penniless German, took the time on the way over to the Holyland to massacre the inhabitants of a few Jewish villages, just for practice, I imagine. When Peter and his illiterate, disillusioned followers arrived at Nicene for the first battle, Peter deserted them.

    The lies told by the Christian recruiters remind me of those coming out of Washington today. Remember WMD and all the funny little things said to attract supporters of the War. Here we are, westerners, chopping up easterners again for profit. In 1099 the attack was for land under the aegis of christianity. In 2002 the attack was for oil under the aegis of a Christian ruler. In 1099 the rulers of the City of Jerusalem were not a threat to Christians. In 2002, the rulers of Iraq were not a threat to America. Things have not changed very much.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 26, 2005 - 04:54 pm
    Now, now, children. Let's not play games by sneaking in political remarks along with comments about the Middle Ages. We can have enough to talk about concerning that era without making this into a political discussion group.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 26, 2005 - 08:07 pm

    When Pearl Harbor was attacked on December 7, 1941 I was 12 years old. From that day on everybody told me not to worry; we'd win because God was on our side.

    I was so upset and scared by the idea of war which I'd only read about, that I believed it whenever anyone said it. I believed it for a long time until one day I thought to myself:
    I thought God wasn't supposed to take sides.

    Mal

    kiwi lady
    October 26, 2005 - 09:45 pm
    Correct Mal I don't think God has much time for our wars.

    Justin
    October 26, 2005 - 10:06 pm
    It's hard not to compare yesterday and today, especially, when the events and reactions are so similar. It's too bad we cannot look at the lie that cost us 2000 young lives and recognize in it the same sleaze that drove Peter's peasants to their deaths before Nicea. Had the ignorant and otherwise engaged among us been familiar with what other leaders of history had done to satisfy their own selfish desires, we might have avoided a war and saved 2000 lives. It is not politics I refer to but to the present reality becoming history and therefore a legitimate part of our sphere.

    Justin
    October 26, 2005 - 10:15 pm
    Of course God is on our side. Just because the enemy thinks he/she is on their side doesn't make it so. Besides, their God doesn't have same name as our God. Theirs is called Allah. Ours is called God. So whose side is God on? Ours of course.

    Justin
    October 26, 2005 - 10:52 pm
    Merijo: As Eloise said , Les Peregrines by Jean Burin deals with the topic you are interested in. There may be a translation somewhere though I am not aware of it. However, Tasso did something called "Jerusalem Delivered" and Zoe Oldenberg has also written extensively on the topic. There is much in fiction about individual crusades and I understand a movie has just passed through on the topic dealing with the role of the barons in the first crusade.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 27, 2005 - 03:30 am
    The Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem

    1099-1143

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 27, 2005 - 03:45 am
    "Godfrey of Bouillon, whose exceptional integrity had finally won recognition, was chosen to rule Jerusalem and its environs under the modest title of Defender of the Holy Sepulcher.

    "Here, where Byzantine rule had ceased 465 years before, no pretense was made of subordination to Alexius. The Latin kingdom of Jerusalem became at once a sovereign state.

    "The Greek Church was disestablished. Its patriarch fled to Cyprus and the parishes of the new kingdom accepted the Latin liturgy, an Italian primate and papal rule.

    "The price of sovereignty is the capacity for self-defense.

    "Two weeks after the great liberation, an Egyptian army came up to Ascalon to reliberate a city holy for too many faiths. Godfrey defeated it but a year later he died (1100).

    "His less able brother, Baldwin I (1100-18) took the loftier title of king. Under King Fulk, Count of Anjou (1131-41), the new state included most of Palestine and Syria. But the Moslems still held Aleppo, Damascus and Emesa.

    "The kingdom was divided into four feudal principalities, centering respectively at Jerusalem, Antioch, Edessa and Tripolis. Each of the four was parceled into practically independent fiefs whose jealous lords made war, coined money, and otherwise aped sovereignty.

    "The king was elected by the barons and was checked by an ecclesiastical hierarchy subject only to the pope. He was further weakened by ceding the control of several ports -- Jaffa, Tyre, Acre, Beirut, Ascalon -- to Venice, Pisa, or Genoa as the price of naval aid and seabornee supplies.

    "The structure and law of the kingdom were formulated in the Assizes of Jerusalem -- one of the most logical and ruthless codifications of feudal government. The barons assumed all ownership of land, reduced the former owners -- Christian or Moslem -- to the condition of serfs and laid upon them feudal obligations severer than any in contemporary Europe.

    "The native Christian population looked back to Moslem rule as a golden age."

    Somehow the principle of the Golden Rule was lost.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 27, 2005 - 03:48 am
    Here are the ASSIZES OF JERUSALEM.

    Robby

    Bubble
    October 27, 2005 - 05:02 am
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godfrey_of_Bouillon

    http://www.answers.com/topic/godfrey-of-bouillon

    I am trying to find a picture of the equestrian statue of Godfroi which is in the middle of Place Royale in Brussels - Belgium, but without success.

    King of J'lem

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 27, 2005 - 06:13 am

    The Crusader Knights

    Godefroi de Bouillon

    Picture: Statue of Godefroi de Bouillon

    MeriJo
    October 27, 2005 - 11:19 am
    Eloise:

    Thank you for your reference to "Les Peregrines". (I was tickled that I could read and understand much of the French. Those six years in high school and college combined many eons ago came up in my mind to translate.)

    I shall look for it. It sounds interesting.

    Justin:

    Thank you for your post referring me back to Eloise's.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 27, 2005 - 03:59 pm
    "The young kingdom had many elements of weakness but it had a unique support in new orders of military monks.

    "As far back as 1048 the merchants of Amalfi had obtained Moslem permission to build a hospital at Jerusalem for poor or ailing pilgrims. About 1120 the staff of this institution was reorganized by Raymond du Puy as a religious order vowed to chastity, poverty, obedience, and the military protection of Christians in Palestine. And these Hospitalers, or Knights of the Hospital of St. John, beame one of the noblest charitable bodies in the Christian world.

    "About the same time (1119) Hugh de Payens and eight other crusader knights solemnly dedicated themselves to monastic discipline and the martial service of Christianity. They obtained from Baldwin II a residence near the site of Solomon's temple and were soon called Knights Templar.

    "St. Bernard drew up a stern rule for them which was not long obeyed. He praised them for being 'most learned in the art of war' and bade them 'wash seldom' and closely crop their hair. 'The Christian who slays the unbeliever in the Holy War' wrote Bernard to the Templars, in a passage worthy of Mohammed, 'is sure of his reward. More sure if he himself is slain. The Christian glories in the death of the pagan, because Christ is thereby glorified. Men \must learn to kill with a good conscience if they are to fight successful wars.'

    "A Hospitaler wore a black robe with a white cross on the left sleeve. A Templar a white robe with a red cross on the mantle. Each hated the other religiously. From protecting and nursing pilgrims the Hospitalers and Templars passed to active attacks upon Saracen strongholds.

    "Though the Templars numbered but 300, and the Hospitalers some 600, in 1180 they played a prominent part in the battles of the Crusades and earned great repute as warriors. Both orders campaigned for financial support and received it from Church and state, from rich and poor.

    "In the thirteenth century each owned great estates in Europe, including abbeys, villages, and towns. Both astonished Christians and Saracens by building vast fortresses in Syria where, dedicated individually to poverty, they enjoyed collective luxury amid the toils of war.

    "In 1190 the Germans in Palestine aided by a few at home, founded the Teutohic Knights and established a hospital near Acre."

    Your comments, please?

    Robby

    MeriJo
    October 27, 2005 - 04:13 pm
    Well, it's good to know that hospitals were founded, but I wonder just how effective they were. The germ theory wasn't known until Florence Nightingale thought it would be a good idea to keep things clean during the Crimean War many years later or so we have heard.

    Did the knights do the nursing?

    Bernard was wrong. Somewhere along the way he forgot about "turning the other cheek." It's no wonder many people didn't stay with the tenets of their faith as they heard about them. They didn't seem right according to their conscience which ultimately sends signals that something isn't right nor coincides with basic Christian teaching of all humanity being valid.

    It's easy to see that with such conflicting notions that there were schisms and arguments with regard to Christianity. Even those who were essentially committed to being good Christians were mistaken.

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    October 27, 2005 - 05:15 pm
    EARLY MEDIEVAL PAINTINGS

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    October 27, 2005 - 05:22 pm
    WARFARE OF THE MIDDLE AGES WITH ANIMATED WEAPONRY

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    October 27, 2005 - 05:25 pm
    EUROPE AT THE TIME OF THE FIRST CRUSADE

    MeriJo
    October 27, 2005 - 07:32 pm
    I was curious about the hospital care that could be afforded in such turbulent times. Hospitals in one form or another had existed from ancient times, but knowing of the compromised hygiene of the Crusaders, it seemed to be a challenge.

      "The most important of all the military orders, both for the extent of its area and for its duration. It is said to have existed before the Crusades and is not extinct at the present time. During this long career it has not always borne the same name. Known as Hospitallers of Jerusalem until 1309, the members were called Knights of Rhodes from 1309 till 1522, and have been called Knights of Malta since 1530.

    The origins of the order have given rise to learned discussions, to fictitious legends and hazardous conjectures. The unquestionable founder was one Gerald or Gerard, whose birthplace and family name it has been vainly sought to ascertain. On the other hand, his title as founder is attested by a contemporary official document, the Bull of Paschal II, dated 1113, addressed to "Geraudo institutori ac praeposito Hirosolimitani Xenodochii". This was certainly not the first establishment of the kind at Jerusalem. even before the crusades, hostelries were indispensable to shelter the pilgrims who flocked to the Holy Places, and in the beginning the hospitia or xenodochia were nothing more. They belonged to different nations; a Frankish hospice is spoken of in the time of Charlemagne; the Hungarian hospice is said to date from King St. Stephen (year 1000). But the most famous was an Italian hospice about the year 1050 by the merchants of Amalfi, who at that time had commercial relations with the Holy Land. Attempts have been made to trace the origin of the Hospitallers of St. John to this foundation, but it is obvious to remark that the Hospitallers had St. John the Baptist for their patron, while the Italian hospice was dedicated to St. John of Alexandria. Moreover, the former adopted the Rule of St. Augustine, while the latter followed that of the Benedictines. Like most similar houses at that time, the hospice of Amalfi was in fact merely a dependency of a monastery, while Gerard's was autonomous from the beginning. Before the Crusades, the Italian hospital languished, sustained solely by alms gathered in Italy; but Gerard profited by the presence of the crusaders, and by the gratitude felt for his hospitality, to acquire territory and revenues not only in the new Kingdom of Jerusalem, but in Europe -- in Sicily, Italy, and Provence. In the acts of donation which remain to us, there is no mention of the sick, but only of the poor and strangers. In this respect the hospice of Gerard did not differ from other.

    Thanks to the resources accumulated by Gerard, his successor, Raymond of Provence (1120-60), caused the erection of more spacious buildings near the church of the Holy Sepulchre, and henceforth the hospice became an infirmary served by a community of hospitallers in the modern sense of the word.

    Strictly speaking, therefore, the Hospitallers of Jerusalem only began with Raymond of Provence, to whom they owe their rule. This rule deals only with their conduct as religious and infirmarians, there being no mention of knights. It especially sets forth that the hospital shall permanently maintain at its expense five physicians and three surgeons. The brothers were to fulfil the duties of infirmarians. A pilgrim, about the year 1150, places the number of sick persons cared for at 2000, a figure evidently exaggerated, unless we make it include all the persons harboured in a whole year. Raymond continued to receive donations, and this permitted him to complete his foundation by a second innovation. To accompany and defend at need, the arriving and departing pilgrims, he defrayed the cost of an armed escort, which in time became a veritable army, comprising knights recruited from among the crusaders of Europe, and serving as a heavy cavalry (1187). . . Thus the Order of St. John imperceptibly became military without losing its eleemosynary character. The statutes of Roger de Moulins (1187) deal only with the service of the sick; the first mention of military service is in the statutes of the ninth grand master, Alfonso of Portugal (about 1200). In the latter a marked distinction is made between secular knights, externs to the order, who served only for a time, and the professed knights, attached to the order by a perpetual vow, and who alone enjoyed the same spiritual privileges as the other religious. Henceforth the order numbered two distinct classes of members: the military brothers and the brothers infirmarians. The brothers chaplains, to whom was entrusted the divine service, formed a third class."

    MeriJo
    October 27, 2005 - 07:42 pm
    Medieval Medicine:

    http://library.thinkquest.org/15569/hist-6.html

    Fifi le Beau
    October 27, 2005 - 08:31 pm
    While reading about the Hospitallers, a more recent organization came to mind, namely 'Medecins Sans Frontieres' or MSF. It was founded in 1971 by a small group of French doctors. They believed that all people had the right to medical care which superseded national borders.

    The USA has formed its own group which is known as 'Doctors without Borders' patterned after the French organization. They do good works in places where there is little or no health care.

    Godfrey of Bouillon lived to age thirty nine, so life was short. If you wanted to make a name for yourself, you had to move quickly. More people died from disease and wounds than were actually killed in most battles. The Hospitals seemed more a comfort station in the Middle Ages, but if you were wounded and far from home, the hospital would have been a haven with or without medical care.

    Fifi

    Justin
    October 27, 2005 - 09:53 pm
    Bernard of Clairveax, the Cistercian powerhouse, is the same fellow who threatened Abelard, a leading scholastic philosopher, with burning at the stake if he stepped over the current popular Christian line set by Bernard, during debate. Abelard chose not to particpate in the debate. It is this same Bernard who preached rewards in heaven for killing pagans- the good killing. Someone, maybe it was Durant who, compared this fellow to Mohammud.He is in his advice also comparable to al Quaida folks, who advise suicide bombers heavenly rewards including the TLC of seventy virgins, to kill infidels- another good killing. .

    This man Bernard was not just any old Cistercian he was for many years the Number Two Catholic in Europe and a challenge for Popes to control.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 28, 2005 - 03:11 am
    These reviews of the book THE MONKS OF WAR give some interesting information. Scroll down for the overviews.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 28, 2005 - 03:12 am
    The Second Crusade

    1146-8

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 28, 2005 - 03:25 am
    "St. Bernard appealed to Pope Eugenius III to sound another call to arms.

    "Eugenius, enmeshed in conflict with the infidels of Rome, begged Bernard to undertake the task himself. It was a wise suggestion for the saint was a greter man than he whom he had made Pope.

    "When he left his cell at Clairvaux to preach the crusade to the French, the skepticism that hides in the heart of faith was silenced and the fears spread by narratives of the First Crusade were stilled.

    "Bernard went directly to King Louis VII and persuaded him to take the cross. With the King at his side he spoke to a multitude at Vezelay (1146). When he had finished, the crowd enlisted en masse.

    "The crosses prepared proved too few and Bernard tore his robe to pieces to provide additional emblems. He wrote to the Pope:-'Cities and castles are emptied. There is not left one man to seven women and everywhere there are widows to still living husbands.'

    "Having won France he passed to Germany where his fervent eloquence induced the Emperor Conrad III to accept the crusade as the one cause that could unify the Guelf and Hohenstanfon factions then rending the realm.

    "Many nobles followed Conrad's lead. Among them the young Frederick of Swabia who would become Barbarosa and would die in the Third Crusade."

    Once again the power of the spoken word and once again the hypnosis of multitudes.

    Interesting phrase "skepticism that hides in the heart of faith." Doubters? Agnostics? Any examples in our time of men or women who through their spoken word alone have brought people to their knees?

    Robby

    Bubble
    October 28, 2005 - 04:47 am
    Aigues Mortes, the city founded by St Louis for his crusades.

    http://www.softadventure.net/provence.htm

    Next to Aigues Mortes is the city of Stes Maries de-la-Mer, where the black Virgin Sarah is said to be buried. She is the saint Patron of the gypsies.

    St Louis's statue

    Rich7
    October 28, 2005 - 07:02 am
    It's amazing that a few lofty words by a pope, along with some religious symbolism, and colorful pageantry can launch an ignorant, unwashed, out of control, mob into a long path of destruction, rape, and mass slaughter across Europe, Asia Minor and the Middle East.

    Rich

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 28, 2005 - 07:06 am


    I am the very model of a modern Major-General
    I've information vegetable, animal, and mineral
    I know the kings of England, and I quote the fights historical
    From Marathon to Waterloo, in order categorical



    I'm very well acquainted, too, with matters mathematical
    I understand equations, both the simple and quadratical
    About binomial theorem I'm teeming with a lot o' news
    With many cheerful facts about the square of the hypotenuse



    With many cheerful facts about the square of the hypotenuse
    With many cheerful facts about the square of the hypotenuse
    With many cheerful facts about the square of the hypotepotenuse



    I'm very good at integral and differential calculus
    I know the scientific names of beings animalculous
    In short, in matters vegetable, animal, and mineral
    I am the very model of a modern Major-General



    In short, in matters vegetable, animal, and mineral
    He is the very model of a modern Major-General




    I know our mythic history, King Arthur's and Sir Caradoc's
    I answer hard acrostics, I've a pretty taste for paradox
    I quote in elegiacs all the crimes of Heliogabalus
    In conics I can floor peculiarities parabolous



    I can tell undoubted Raphaels from Gerard Dows and Zoffanies
    I know the croaking chorus from the Frogs of Aristophanes
    Then I can hum a fugue of which I've heard the music's din afore
    And whistle all the airs from that infernal nonsense Pinafore



    And whistle all the airs from that infernal nonsense Pinafore
    And whistle all the airs from that infernal nonsense Pinafore
    And whistle all the airs from that infernal nonsense Pinapinafore

    <br?

    Then I can write a washing bill in Babylonic cuneiform
    And tell you ev'ry detail of Caractacus's uniform
    In short, in matters vegetable, animal, and mineral
    I am the very model of a modern Major-General



    In short, in matters vegetable, animal, and mineral
    He is the very model of a modern Major-General




    In fact, when I know what is meant by "mamelon" and "ravelin"
    When I can tell at sight a Mauser rifle from a javelin
    When such affairs as sorties and surprises I'm more wary at
    And when I know precisely what is meant by "commissariat"



    When I have learnt what progress has been made in modern gunnery
    When I know more of tactics than a novice in a nunnery
    In short, when I've a smattering of elemental strategy
    You'll say a better Major-General had never sat a gee



    You'll say a better Major-General had never sat a gee
    You'll say a better Major-General had never sat a gee
    You'll say a better Major-General had never sat a sat a gee




    For my military knowledge, though I'm plucky and adventury
    Has only been brought down to the beginning of the century
    But still, in matters vegetable, animal, and mineral
    I am the very model of a modern Major-General



    But still, in matters vegetable, animal, and mineral
    He is the very model of a modern Major-General


    ~Pirates of Penzance.
    Lyrics by William Schwenck Gilbert

    MeriJo
    October 28, 2005 - 07:59 am
    In answer to your question, Robby, some who stirred a crowd's emotions include Huey Long, Billy Sunday, Billy Graham, and Martin Luther King, all masters of declamatory speech.

    MeriJo
    October 28, 2005 - 08:03 am
    Mal:

    Love your reference to Gilbert and Sullivan's "Pirates of Penzance".

    Scrawler
    October 28, 2005 - 10:42 am
    Can we assume that we should find no "guilt" in killing as long as the person or persons we are killing are not of the same religion, race, politics or in later days sexual orientation? Of course that would also mean that you would have to believe in guilt in the first place or have any sort of conscious to begin with.

    Rich7
    October 28, 2005 - 11:16 am
    A couple of others who, in modern times, could stir a crowd's emotions with their speech were Winston Churchill, and (unfortunately) Adolph Hitler.

    Rich

    MeriJo
    October 28, 2005 - 02:36 pm
    If one is confronted with the need to defend either life or property, and can do it by way of mediation and diplomacy then there is no need to become violent. However, the tendency to violence is impulsive and provoked by a real or imaginary affront.

    Years ago when I was teaching little primary students there were times when I would have one of them, usually a little girl, come up to me with tears flowing and saying that "Johnny, hit me in the bread basket!" It was imperative that "Johnny" be located immediately and told that it was wrong to hit "Susie", and that she didn't like it. "Johnny" would need to be crestfallen and sorry and look so before "Susie" could be appeased and the tears would stop. Action followed by reaction. I could never say "Wait until after school." Satisfaction and correction had to be quick. The human instinct to respond to abuse is immediate. Two little boys would have carried on the fight, as would two little girls, and I would have been called to stop it.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 28, 2005 - 03:51 pm
    For those who want to read in detail about MASS SUGGESTION (MANIPULATION, HYPNOSIS, PERSUASION, BRAINWASHING), this article may stimulate your thinking as we move forward examining the Crusades.

    Robby

    Sunknow
    October 28, 2005 - 04:33 pm
    Now that is one fascinating link to check out.

    I must go back and read it all. I slipped down to the "Persuasion techniques" and started reading, and got carried away. Now I will have to research "The Power of NLP.

    "The concepts and techniques of Neuro-Linguistics are so heavily protected that I found out the hard way that to even talk about them publicly or in print results in threatened legal action......"

    A very interesting link, Robby. Especially that section, from the "Yes Set" on down. Yes, I'll have to go back and read it all. Thanks.

    We've all seen the examples in action.

    Sun

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 28, 2005 - 04:51 pm
    Were the Crusades a "volunteer" army? Or not? What are the advantages or disadvantages of volunteer vs conscription? Could we say that the masses of people who were roused up by the religious leaders and rushed off to fight were "volunteers?" Click HERE to read more about the pro and con.

    As usual, consider the source of the link.

    Robby

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    October 28, 2005 - 05:35 pm
    Quite an interesting question Robby, were the Crusaders volunteers or not?

    Back in the 11th century, there were no official record of births and deaths, I believe and volunteers were recruited from people on each nobles estate and as there were very few strangers, they knew every soul who lived on their land.

    When the nobles demanded "volunteers" for the Crusades, it was more an honor than a duty to join up, first to serve their master who served the King who served the Pope who distributed rewards to those who served.

    We can't compare today's 'volunteers' to the Crusaders, today in the West everybody is accounted for without exception. Volunteers are mercenaries, patriotic or both and enlisted men. They all serve their country and religion is not at the core of the battle, it is land containing rich natural resources.

    In Islamic countries all volunteers serve God through their Heads of State and rewards are also promised for those who die serving because the core of the battle is religion first, second keeping their rich natural resources for their own benefit.

    MeriJo
    October 28, 2005 - 06:35 pm
    Switzerland requires its young able-bodied men to serve two years. If one enjoys the benefits of a nation one should be willing to defend it. This is an interesting philosophy. I suppose if the U. S was small and neutral as Switzerland is there would be no problem in getting enlistees to the military.

    MeriJo
    October 28, 2005 - 06:59 pm
    Robby:

    Your link about persuasion techniques is interesting. It appears to me that easily moved people would succumb to such techniques.

    As for the volunteers of the Crusades, no doubt some were encouraged to reach a point of blind zeal and just take off for the Holy Land - especially in the Peasant's Crusade, the first ragtag group of the Penniless leader and Peter the Hermit.

    The First Crusade which followed surely had many of the same people, but in effect many serfs who joined the Crusaders on their trip to Asia Minor were anxious to escape the servitude of the lords and vassals of Europe for a better opportunity to be independent. I do not know if these would be called volunteers per se, but certainly willing followers.

    The First Crusade was by far the worst with the Crusaders slaying the population of the Holy Land indiscriminately and brutally and so much so that the Islamists have never forgotten it.

    kiwi lady
    October 28, 2005 - 08:33 pm
    I think Hitler was the mastermind of Crowd manipulation in latter days followed maybe by Fidel Castro and Eva Peron. The Great Leader of North Vietnam would be another. The people there would die for their leader there seems to be none that hate him. They are well and truly brain washed from birth. Mass brain washing seems to be easily accomplished.

    Traude S
    October 28, 2005 - 08:59 pm
    As dangerous as Hitler, perhaps even more so, was Dr. Joseph Goebbels, the Propaganda Minister of the "Third Reich". He was born in the predominantly Catholic Rhineland, educated by the Jesuits and graduated from the University of Heidelberg.
    A small man with a club foot, dark burning eyes and a mellifluos baritone voice that could become shrill and steely, he was known for his mesmerizing oratory. He had enormous power over every aspect of the print media, radio, films, books, art, and what the people were made to think and believe. I was there and I remember.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 29, 2005 - 04:23 am
    I know from my own life's experiences and from what people have told me that I have a voice which wields power whether I am speaking softly or in a loud voice. For years I was active in Toastmasters International and won many awards speaking before large groups, sometimes in the thousands. I use my voice now when employing hypnotherapy in my practice. Public speaking before various organizations is still part of my profession. I was speaking publicly when I was six years old. I was singing publicly when I was a young soprano and years later when I was a baritone.

    I remember years ago my wife saying to me that two things immediately attracted her to me -- my hands and my voice. I never could figure out that "hands" bit. I have two thumbs and eight fingers like everyone else but the "voice" part I understood.

    Click HERE to read more about the voice and the power it wields. We can then visualize the effect it had on multitudes in those Crusades days.

    Robby

    Bubble
    October 29, 2005 - 06:17 am
    Surely if you are from Italian descent, you know how expressive hands can be.

    The use of one's voice depends also on our own appreciation of its sound. I never liked the pitch of mine which makes me reluctant to use "voice" on the net for example. I'll never forget the nun's remark in singing lessons at school. She said that she took pity of my efforts and that is why I got passing grades in singing. It was meant to boast my self confidence?

    I learned public speaking and was told I was good at it, but hearing the recordings while training always made me cringe. Silence is golden, I prefer to listen.

    Rich7
    October 29, 2005 - 07:44 am
    Traude, your comments on Goebbels remind us that a massive campaign, although it may be started by a motivating speaker, cannot be maintained without an effective and ongoing propaganda effort. For all his evil intentions, Goebbels was a propaganda genius.

    The 1934 Nuremberg rally, and the production of the film of the event, The Triumph of the Will, by filmmaker Leni Riefenstahl are viewed even to this day as masterpieces in propaganda.

    As I read of the crusades, today, I can see propaganda being utilized to whip up the crowd. They probably did not have a word for it yet, but it was propaganda:- The convenient discovery of the true cross, pieces of which were distributed the crowd, the speaker ripping off his shirt and throwing the shreds to the mob. The display of the lance that supposedly pierced Christ. All propaganda worthy of Dr. Goebbels, himself.

    Rich

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 29, 2005 - 08:05 am

    In 1938 I was in a ward in the Children's Hospital in Boston, Massachusetts wearing a cast that went from my armpits to my hips and down my left leg. It made me completely helpless. The beds were in curtained cubicles, and I couldn't see anything but the ceiling or the floor when I was turned over every six hours.

    One day I could hear a shrill voice coming from the nurse's station. I couldn't understand what the man was saying, but I know it made me scared. When I asked I was told it was Adolph Hitler on the radio.

    There were other radio voices at that time like Father Coughlin's which projected all kinds of things. Franklin Roosevelt's radio voice, too, is one I'll never forget. So was Winston Churchill's.

    I was a singer, and learned early what it meant when anyone said a performer held the audience in the palm of her hand. It was not the hush of the audience before I began that I remember; it was the hush at the end when I had finished singing. Fearful thoughts that they didn't like what I did would pass through my mind, then they'd break out in what seemed like thunderous applause. There'd been a kind of hypnotism going on, and I was the hypnotizer.

    ROBBY, you do have nice hands, as I recall. The thing that struck me about your voice, when I met you in Richmond for the first time, was that New York accent of yours. As a displaced Yankee living in the south, I felt as if I'd suddenly been transported closer to home.

    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 29, 2005 - 09:40 am

    Knights of Columbus

    Knights of Columbus from the New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia

    Traude S
    October 29, 2005 - 10:21 am
    The voice of a person, its "timbre", the hands and, yes, the eyes, all determine how a person "comes across" to others.

    So said my mother, an obsessive observer of people and hypercritical of their appearance and demeanor. She was perfect, of course. But she did have a point.

    Voices can be soothing or angry and everything in between, but we can do nothing to change the voice we were born with and its timbre. Accents, on the other hand, are due to the accident of birth in a specific place over which we have no cotrol, and they CAN be modified , shall we say, even erased, by speech pathologist, even actually artifically created by Hollywood experts, if a role demands it.

    I believe the hands are in fact an expression of one's personality and have their own story to tell beyond the obvious. I've met people whose hands I had to shake and felt soiled.

    And the eyes. How another person meets our gaze (or not) can be telling. There is truth in the saying "The eyes are the mirror of the soul".

    MeriJo
    October 29, 2005 - 10:36 am
    "Propaganda" has acquired a negative definition, but in actuality all it means is "spreading the word". And, of course, in that the Crusades were encouraged by preaching among all the people in Europe, there definitely was "propaganda" or the "spreading of the word."

    However, let's remember that it was the hostile actions by the Islamists toward the pilgrims in the Holy Land that prompted the beginning of the Crusades - not the other way around.

    Rich7
    October 29, 2005 - 10:42 am
    Good point MeriJo.

    As Gilbert and Sullivan might have put it:

    With MeriJo it's impractical

    To debate matters ecliastical

    (That whirring sound you hear is the boys spinning in their graves.)

    Rich

    Bubble
    October 29, 2005 - 10:45 am
    prop·a·gan·da , n.
    1. information, ideas, or rumors deliberately spread widely to help or harm a person, group, movement, institution, nation, etc.
    2. the deliberate spreading of such information, rumors, etc.
    3. the particular doctrines or principles propagated by an organization or movement.
    4. Rom. Cath. Ch.
    a. a committee of cardinals, established in 1622 by Pope Gregory XV, having supervision over foreign missions and the training of priests for these missions.
    b. a school (College of Propaganda) established by Pope Urban VIII for the education of priests for foreign missions.
    From Webster's Dict. The word has a different meaning in the Roman Catholic context then.

    MeriJo
    October 29, 2005 - 10:46 am
    Rich7:

    MeriJo
    October 29, 2005 - 10:52 am
    Bubble:

    The office of the Propagation of the Faith in Rome does incorporate the use of the word "propaganda" in its definition. The Roman Catholic faith is primarily taught by preaching, teaching, and now videos to augment whatever books of instruction are used.

    I, first, was surprised when I saw the word used that way, but in its pure sense it does apply as it is a broad application of instruction in the world.

    Scrawler
    October 29, 2005 - 10:54 am
    If a person is brainwashed in to doing something, how can you say he volunteered?

    A voice is a very powerful thing. I can still hear my mother calling me especially when she used my first and middle name. I knew I was in trouble than.

    Traude S
    October 29, 2005 - 11:04 am
    RICH, you are right. "Propaganda" is the blunt and true term. Similar acticities are called PR now. When I came to Washington, D.C. in 1954, I had no idea what "public relations" meant - from a linguistic point of view.

    Adolf Hitler could never have achieved what he did if he had not had people like Goebbels, an intellectual -- which Hitler was definitely not. Hitler was not even a German but Austrian, and he had that guttural, r-rolling accent. All of his exhortative speeches typically began with the mention of the Versailles treaty, the beginning of all evil -- and he mispronounced "der Versailler Vertrag" every single solitary time. Nobody ever had the guts to correct him. He talked and talked and yelled until he was hoarse. Despised by the intelligentsia, he coined the phrase "Arbeiter der Stirn und der Faust"
    Arbeiter = worker, workers;
    Stirn = literally forehead; mind
    Faust = fist.
    in an attempt to establish equivalence between the educated and the people who worked with their hands. He was not entirely successful. Those who plotted (unsuccessfully) to assassinate him were officers from titled families. And yes, I can attest to the fact that there was a resistance movement : I belonged to a cell in Heidelberg.

    Rich7
    October 29, 2005 - 12:01 pm
    Traude,

    Re: The plot to assassinate Hitler and titled families. It was the wounded war hero Colonel von Stauffenberg who placed the explosive charge in Hitler's conference room. (The "von" in his name indicating a titled family.)

    Hitler never trusted the German aristocracy, and his suspicions were confirmed (in his mind) when Field Marshal von Paulis (another "von") surrendered at Stalingrad against Hitler's instructions.

    Even Albert Speer later claimed to have plotted to kill Hitler. He supposedly had a plan (which he shared with nobody) to drop poison gas down a ventilation pipe at Der Fuhrer's mountain home in Berctesgarten (sp?). He claimed in his memoirs that the day he was going to go through with the assassination he found the ventilation tube had been covered.

    Rich

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    October 29, 2005 - 12:12 pm
    This is so interesting, thank you all, especially Traude for telling us about what really happened during the war. I am glued to your every words.

    Justin
    October 29, 2005 - 02:49 pm
    Merijo: Yes, followers of Islam were responsible for closing off the holy land but they were Seljuk Turks first, Muslim second. When the Fatimids, another branch of Islam, were in control of the holy land passage and worship was permitted for all religions. It was not intranecine warfare that drove the Fatimids out of power but Turks from Iran who happened also to be Islamic.

    The Turks were subsequently driven from Jerusalem by the Fatimids and free access for pilgrims was reestablished.It was the tolerant Fatimids who were burned, tortured, and crucified by the Crusaders in their zeal for revenge and new land. Many Christians and Jews were also massacred in Jerusalem at the end of that seige. It is wrong to excuse the atrocious actions of the Crusaders by suggesting that "Islamists started it," so their punishment is excusable.

    The same drive is at work today. Bin Laden was responsible for 9/11 not Saddam or the people of Iraq but it was Saddam and the people of Iraq who have been punished. Bin Laden goes unpunished and all but forgotten.

    MeriJo
    October 29, 2005 - 04:41 pm
    Thank you, Justin, I understood that. The whole Crusades period was a mistake as I have posted before.

    Justin, I left the Political folder because it was gloomy and tiresome and came here because it is more peaceful and positive. And because I am alone much of the time I need to connect with other people. I am getting so, I don't want to read the papers or watch the news. Today, I had a great time watching the Breeder's Cup Turf and Classic races - exciting and such a beautiful part of New York State up there in Saratoga. Such magnificent horses! I wish I could have been there.

    I do believe that there is more told today of evils in the world than ever before - as there has always been mayhem and murder since Cain and Abel. I wish that a lot of these things that are described in a broadcast would be set aside as there is so much copy-catting of crime.

    I don't think bin Laden has been forgotten. I think he is still afoot causing mischief. As for the Iraq war - that was a mistake, too. Nobody in Washington had a clue of the character of an Arab nor a Muslim - No one remembered the First Crusade which imprinted hatred and distrust for the West because of its cruelty to Arabs. No one in Washington had a clue of how the Middle Easterners and the Iraqi thought. They think differently than westerners. - As far as I am concerned, the whole lot of them in Washington appear to be populists and swaying with the breeze of public opinion instead of thinking for themselves and doing their homework for the good of the country.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 29, 2005 - 04:44 pm
    "At Easter of 1147 Conrad and the Germans set out.

    "At Pentecost Louis and the French followed at a cautious distance, uncertain whether the Germans or the Turks were their most hated foes. The Germans felt a like hisitation between Turks and Greeks.

    "And so many Byzantine towns were pillaged on the way that many closed their gates and dispensed a scanty ration by baskets let down from the walls.

    "Manuel Commenus, now Eastern Emperor, gently suggested that the noble hosts should cross the Hellespont at Sestos instead of going through Constantinople. But Conrad and Louis refused. A party in Louis' council urged him to take Constantinople for France. He refrained.

    "But again the Greeks may have learned of his temptation. They were frightened by the stature and armor of the Western knights and amused by their feminine entourage. His troublesome Eleanor accompanied Louis and troubadours accompanied the Queen. The counts of Flanders and Toulouse were escorted by their countesses and the baggage train of the French was heavy with trunks and boxes of apparel and cosmetics designed to ensure the beauty of these ldies against all the vicissitudes of climate, war, and time.

    "Manuel hastened to transport the two armies across the Bosporus and supplied the Greeks with debased coinage for dealings with the Crusaders. In Asia a dearth of provisions and the high prices demanded by the Greeks led to many conflicts between saviors and saved.

    "Frederick of the Red Beard mourned that his sword had to shed Christian blood for the privilege of encountering infidels.

    "Conrad insisted, against Manuel's advice, on taking the route followed by the First Crusade.

    "Despite or because of their Greek guides, the Germans fell into a succession of foodless wastes and Moslem snares. Their loss of life was dishartening.

    "At Dorylacum, where the First Crusade had defeated Qilij Arslan, Conrad's army met the main Moslem force and was so badly beaten that hardly one Christian in ten survived.

    "The French army, far behind, was deceived by false news of a German victory. It advanced recklessly and was decimated by starvation and Moslem raids. Reaching Attalia, Louis bargained with Greek ship captains to transport his army by sea to Christian Tarus or Antioch. The captains demanded an impossible fee per passenger. Louis and several nobles, Eleanor and several ladies, took passage to Antioch, leaving the French army in Attalia.

    "Mohammedan forces swept down upon the city and slaughtered nearly every Frenchman in it (1148).

    If I get this correctly, the General with his Lady deserts the Army and they remain to be slaughtered. Hm-m-m-m.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 29, 2005 - 05:30 pm
    Could there be an ANALOGY between "Religion and War" and "Religion and Football?"

    Robby

    kiwi lady
    October 29, 2005 - 06:44 pm
    In another context. To stem our gang problem here with young men we are launching an intensive program of contact sports alongside mentoring to give these kids the thrill of the battle in a more positive way.

    With the plethera of video games and movies kids are not getting thrills in the way we did as kids so they have no way to get rid of the energy from their overload of testosterone so gang warfare becomes the way they do this.

    It has been shown in many successful programs that contact sports and also wilderness adventures have turned the lives of many kids around. This combined with being put in touch with their cultural roots, (Most of the gangs are made up of Polynesian children from poor homes) is part of the intensive program the South Auckland Community is going to put into place.

    Perhaps we need to make contact sports compulsory for our Politicians!

    Justin
    October 29, 2005 - 07:08 pm
    This second Crusade was pure comedy. The royal leadership deserted the Army. The army was annihilated and King Louis was named Saint Louis by the Vatican. He is honored by an equestrian sculpture on the campus of the University of Saint Louis in Saint Louis, Mo. He is the very image of a brave knight facing west which is an appropriate direction in his case.

    Someone in the group wished to discuss Eleanor. This is the moment when she enters the world scene. I think she went home to France because she was tired of being hungry on the trail.

    Justin
    October 29, 2005 - 07:12 pm
    Kiwi: How about rugby for the politicians versus the lobbyists?. What they need is a good scrum.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 30, 2005 - 03:36 am
    "Louis reached Jerusalem with ladies but no army, Conrad with a pitiful remnant of the force with which he had left Ratisbon.

    "From these survivors, and soldiers already in the capital, an army was improvised and marched against Damascus under the divided command of Conrad, Louis, and Baldwin III (1143-62). During the siege disputes arose among the nobles as to which should rule Damascus when it fell.

    "Moslem agents found their way into the Christian army and bribed certain leaders to a policy of inaction or retreat. When word came that the emirs of Aleppo and Mosul were advancing with a large force to relieve Damascus, the advocates of retreat prevailed. The Christian army broke into frgments and fled to Antioch, Acre, or Jerusalem.

    "Conrad, defeated and diseased, returned in disgrace to Germany. Eleanor and most of the French knights returned to France. Louis remained another year in Palestine, making pilgrimages to sacred shrines.

    "Europe was stunned by the collapse of the Second Crusade.

    "Men began to ask how it was that the Almighty allowed His defenders to be so humiliated. Critics assailed St. Bernard as a reckless visionary who had sent men to their death. Here and there emboldened skeptics called in question the most basic tenets of the Christian faith. Bernard replied that the ways of the Almighty are beyond human understanding and that the disaster must have been a punishment for Christian sins. But from this time the philosophic doubts that Abelard (d.1142) had scattered found expression even among the people.

    "Enthusiasm for the Crusades rapidly waned and the Age of Faith prepared to defend itself by fire and sword against the inroads of alien beliefs or no belief at all."

    It seems that Allah prevailed.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 30, 2005 - 04:47 am
    There was "War and Religion." Now it is WAR, RELIGION, AND SEX.

    Robby

    Rich7
    October 30, 2005 - 08:32 am
    I came across a clever quotation.

    "There was a time when religion ruled the world. It is known as the Dark Ages."

    Ruth Hermance Green

    Rich

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 30, 2005 - 09:05 am
    Saladin

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 30, 2005 - 09:15 am
    "Meanwhile a strange new civilization had developed in Christian Syria and Palestine.

    "The Europeans who had settled there since 1099 gradually adopted the Near Eastern garb of wound headdress and flowing robe as suited to a climate of sun and sand. As they became more familiar with the Moslems living in the kingdom, mutual unfamiliarity and hostility decreased.

    "Moslem merchants freely entered Christian settlements and sold their wares. Moslem and Jewish physicians were preferred by Christian patients.

    "Moslem worship in mosques was permitted by the Christian clergy. The Koran was taught in Moslem schools in Christian Antioch and Tripolis. Safe conducsts for travelers and traders were exchanged between Christian and Moslem states.

    "As only a few Christian wives had come with the Crusaders, many Christian settlers married Syrian women. Soon their mixed offspring constituted a large element of the population. Arabic became the daily speech of all commoners. Christian princes made alliances with Moslem emirs against Christian rivals and Moslem emirs sometimes asked the aid of the 'polytheists' in diplomacy or war.

    "Personal friendships developed between Christians and Mohammedans. Ibn Jubair, who toured Christian Sria in 1183, described his fellow Moslems there as prosperous and as well trated by the Franks.

    "He mourned to see Acre 'swarming with pigs and crosses' and odorous with a file European smell but had some hopes that the infidels would gradually be civilized by the superior civilization to which they had come."

    It's all in the point of view.

    Robby

    Rich7
    October 30, 2005 - 11:50 am
    of Durant's words shows a gradual interfacing of the cultures of East and West as a result of the Crusades.

    Slow and clumsy, but still a good thing.

    Rich

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 30, 2005 - 12:47 pm
    And so here we are nowadays completely "interfaced" with love bubbling over on both sides.

    Robby

    Justin
    October 30, 2005 - 01:18 pm
    Bernard's response to critics who were concerned that the Almighty allowed his defenders to be crushed in battle is similar to the response of the ancient prophets to disasters that befell the Jews. The old prophets said again and again "God is angry with you and is punishing you for your sins." This old refrain is an excuse for failure. I wonder if God is angry with the Americans, we haven't been doing very well in foreign policy lately.

    kiwi lady
    October 30, 2005 - 02:53 pm
    Why oh Why can't we just live alongside one another and celebrate our differences instead of hating the differences! I do feel like being rational is being in the minority these days.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 30, 2005 - 03:08 pm
    "I do feel like being rational is being in the minority these days.

    The underlining is mine. Do you believe, Carolyn, that there was a time in the past when rationality superseded emotionality?

    Robby

    mabel1015j
    October 30, 2005 - 03:52 pm
    I'm the one who mentioned Eleanor too early on. I've been "lurking" on your discussion and did read the links about Eleanor and chivalry, which was my initial question. She becomes an important figure for several decades at this point, i love her, but then i always think of Kathryn Hepburn when i think of Eleanor.

    My son is a college football coach and there is a great deal of religion lurking around the locker rooms of many of the colleges. In some places the pressure to participate is stronger than in others, but 4 of the 4 colleges he has been at have had a pre-game prayer, only one of them was a "relgious" school - St Mary's in Calif, how does an athlete excuse him/herself from that?

    I think that coach at Air Force was the same one who recently said they lost to UTEP because UTEP had "Afro-American runners" and Air Force didn't!! That gives us a sense of his social sensibilities....jean

    kiwi lady
    October 30, 2005 - 04:34 pm
    Well Robby once upon a time here we were pretty rational. We did not even get hysterical about Russia and allowed our people to travel there etc not that our leaders did not speak out when neccessary. Now we have our religious right here too and they are really irrational. They villify the Green party like they were some sort of monsters. They seem to enjoy causing division. We have not had that sort of division in our country for many years. But dont they say "Divide and Rule" The race card is a good one to use for division. Here there are those on the right that say our maori have too much privilege. Of course its forgotten we came here, robbed them of their land and took away their self esteem. Land is self esteem to the Maori. By nagging on and on they are creating division.

    Carolyn

    Rich7
    October 30, 2005 - 05:04 pm
    I still think that Europe's "contacts" (violent or otherwise) with the East during the crusades helped kick-start Western civilization out of the stagnation of the Middle Ages and planted the seeds for the Renaissance.

    Rich

    Justin
    October 30, 2005 - 05:45 pm
    Rich: There is no question in my mind about the role of the Crusades in kick starting the Renaisance. There was a twelth century Renaisance that preceded the later more fully developed classical rebirth. Clearly, the returning survivors carried with them the seeds of a gentler way of life. The Arabs, you will recall, were responsible for copying much of the work of the Latin and Greek world. Much of that work was brought back to Europe and the continent advanced in mathematics, philosophy, astronomy, medicine, etc. Europe benefited greatly from the Crusades in spite of the great harm inflicted upon the eastern and western populations.

    Justin
    October 30, 2005 - 05:52 pm
    Kiwi: I agree. You and Robby grasp the importance of "rationality" in society. It is a minority activity often carried on by those out of power.

    Justin
    October 30, 2005 - 06:05 pm
    The population blend that resulted from the early crusades mixed Christianity and Islam and gave the adherents of each religion an opportunity to learn about the humanity of their former enemies. Now Jerusalem is Christian and so is Constantinople. One would think the Crusades would end there but they do not. When "GOD wills a Crusade" the fight goes on and on even if one must kill Christians to give them access to the Holy places they had access to all along.

    kiwi lady
    October 30, 2005 - 06:43 pm
    My Turkish SIL to be still likes to call Istanbul Constantinople. Its like India and Mumbai. Most of the Indians I know keep saying Bombay and say its a nuisance they changed it.

    My daughter and Cenk leave on Nov 10 for four weeks in Turkey. Cenk is taking Vanessa to all the great old buildings. The Blue Mosque is first on the list. His parents live in Istanbul in one of the more affluent areas. I am getting some souvenirs. My wish list is a real Turkish coffee pot or a head scarf. They have some beautiful silk headscarfs over there. I hope they will bring back lots of photos and video footage.

    While they are there they have interviews at Price Waterhouse ( they are both accountants) they are thinking of doing 2 yr secondments there. However its an opportunity to do a lot of travelling during their holidays and that is always a bonus to living away from home.

    I will miss her!

    Carolyn

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 31, 2005 - 04:37 am
    "In the forty years of peace that followed the Second Crusade, the Latin kingdom of Jerusalem continued to be torn with internal strife while its Moslem enemies moved toward unity.

    "Nur-ud-din spread his power from Aleppo to Damascus (1164). When he died, Saladin brought Egypt and Moslem Syria under one rule (1175).

    "Genoese, Venetian, and Pisan merchants disorderd the Eastern ports with the mortal rivalary. Knights quarreled for the royal power in Jerusalem. When Guy de Lusignan maneuvered his way to the throne (1186), disaffection spread among the aristocracy. Said his brother Geoffrey:-'If this Guy is a king, I am worthy to be a god.'

    "Reginald of Chatillon made himself sovereign in the great castle of Karak beyond the Jordan near the Arabian frontier and repeatedly violated the truce arranged between the Latin king and Saladin. He announced his invention to invade Arabia, destroy the tomb of 'the accursed came driver' at Medina, and smash the Kaaba at Mecca in fragments to the ground. His small force of knightly adventurers sailed down the Red Sea, landed at el-Haura, and marched to Medina.

    "They were surprised by an Egyptian detachment and all were cut down except a few who escaped with Reginald and some prisoners who were taken to Mecca and slaughtered instead of goats at the annual pilgrimage sacrifice (1183).

    "Saladin had heretofore contented himself with minor forays against Palestine.

    "Now, offended to the depths of his piety, he re-formed the army that had won him Damascus and met the forces of the Latin kingdom in an indecisive battle on the historic plain of Esdraelon (1183). A few months later he attacked Reginald at Karak but failed to enter the citadel. In 1185 he signed a four-year truce with the Latin kingdom.

    "But in 1186 Reginald, bored with peace, waylaid a Moslem caravan and took rich booty and several prisoners, including Saladin's sister. Said Reginald:-'Since they trusted in Mohammed, let Mohammed come and save them.'

    "Mohammed did not come but Saladin, infuriiated, sounded the call for a holy war against the Christians and swore to kill Reginald with his own hand."

    Palestine - Palestine - Palestine. Will war in that area continue for centuries more?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 31, 2005 - 05:19 am
    Here is a different view of the warm but sad side of JERUSALEM AND PALESTINE.

    Robby

    Bubble
    October 31, 2005 - 05:46 am
    http://www.frommers.com/destinations/jerusalem/H30769.html

    http://www.americancolony.com/

    It is a lovely place and the garden are a havre of peace. But it is all relative of course. Peace is missing and tension is very present these days.

    Rich7
    October 31, 2005 - 08:43 am
    Bubble, The photos of the American Colony Hotel in Jerusalem are beautiful. I noticed that it is one of the Relais & Chateaux group. I've stayed in Relais & Chateaux hotels in Canada and they are outstanding; usually smaller than the Hyatts and Hiltons but impeccable in accommodations and service.

    I personally, however, would be wary of staying in a hotel in Jerusalem that has the word "American" in its name.

    Rich

    Bubble
    October 31, 2005 - 09:20 am
    Rich, some might be thinking that it would be safer, as it were a dependence of the embassy, which it is not of course.

    Scrawler
    October 31, 2005 - 10:38 am
    Personally, I think we should all be required to take "anger management" courses and "diplomacy" courses while in school. Hopefully the next generation that comes up will be more tolerant of their neighbors.

    kiwi lady
    October 31, 2005 - 11:16 am
    With a dose of "attack the message not the messenger" added in to the course. I am not used to the viciousness of personal attack in debate that I have found in the Political folders here. I feel that this sort of viciousness could easily translate into physical violence at something like a public meeting. I think this kind of attitude even extends into foreign affairs.

    In international relations this personalising of foreign policy ( by several powerful nations) inflames many situations.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 31, 2005 - 06:10 pm
    "The crucial engagement of the Crusades was fought at Hittin, near Tiberias, on July 4, 1187.

    "Saladin, familiar with the terrain, took up positions controlling all the wells. The heavily armored Christians, having marched across the plain in midsummer heat, entered battle gasping with thirst.

    "Taking advantage of the wind, the Saracens started a brush fire whose smoke further harassed the Crusaders. In the blind confusion the Frank footmen were separated from the cavalry and were cut down. The knights, fighting with desperation against weapons, smoke, and thirst, at last fell exhausted to the ground and were captured or slain.

    "Apparently by Saladin's orders, no mercy was shown to Templars or Hospitalers. He directed that King Guy and Duke Reginald be brought before him. To the King he gave drink as a pledge of pardon. To Reginald he gave the choice of death or aknowledging Mohammed as a prophet of God. When Reginald refused, Saladin slew him.

    "Part of the booty taken by the victors was the True Cross which had been borne as a battle standard by a priest. Saladin sent it to the caliph at Baghdad.

    "Seeing that no army remained to challenge him, he proceeded to capture Acre where he freed 4000 Moslem prisoners and paid his troops with the wealth of the busy port.

    "For a few months nearly all Palestine was in his hands.

    "As he approached Jerusalem the leading citizens came out to bid for peace.

    "He told them:-'I believe that Jerusalem is the home of God, as you also believe. And I will not willingly lay siege to it, or put it to assault.' He offered it freedom to fortify itself and to cultivate unhindered the land for fifteen miles around and promised to supply all deficiences of money and food until Pentecost. If, when that day came, they saw hope of being rescued, they might keep the city and honorably resist him. If no such prospect appeared, they were to yield peaceably and he would spare the lives and property of the Christian inhabitants.

    "The delegates refused the offer, saying that they would never surrender the city where the Saviour had died for mankind. The siege lssted only twelve days. When the city capitulated, Saladin required a ransom of ten gold pieces for each man, five for each woman, one for each child.

    "The poorest 7000 were to be freed on the surrender of the 30,000 gold bezants which had been sent to the Hospitalers by Henry II of England. These terms were accepted says a Christian chronicler 'with gratitude and lamentation.' Perhaps some learned Christians compared these events of 1187 with those of 1099.

    "Apparently some 15,000 of the 60,000 captured Christians remained unransomed and became slaves. Among the ransomed were the wives and daughters of the nobles who had been killed or captured at Hittin. Softened by their tears, Saladin released to them such husbands and fathers (including King Guy) as could be found in Moslem capitivity.

    "The freed King and nobles took an oath never to bear arms against him again.

    "Safe in Christian Tripolis and Antioch, they were 'released by the sentence of the clergy from the enormity of their promise' and laid plans of vengeance against Saladin. The Sultan allowed the Jews to dwell again in Jerusalem and gave Christians the right to enter, but unarmed. He assisted their pilgrimage and protected their security.

    "The Dome of the Rock which had been converted into a church was purified from Christian taint by sprinkling with rose water and the golden cross that had surmounted the cupola was cast down amid Moslem cheers and Christian groans.

    "Saladin led his wearied troops to the siege of Tyre, found it impregnable, dismissed most of the army and retired ill and worn to Damascus (1188) in the fiftieth years of his age."

    So the Christian clergy can release a person from an oath given to a Mohammedan. I wonder -- what if a Mohammedan swears an oath in court to a Christian judge, can an Islam Imman release him from that? Which Deity has the Supreme power?

    Robby

    MeriJo
    October 31, 2005 - 07:45 pm
    Robby:

    I do not think the oath had anything to do with the Deity or which one (Allah or God - both one and the same, really,) had the Supreme Power.

    The Christians made the oath while in a state of duress and fear. Probably invalid, if one wanted to attribute religion to it. Otherwise, just words to get them out of a tight fix. It sounds as though it was as with all these Crusades wholesale slaughter combined with greed.

    I think an Imam could release a Mohammedan. In a court of a Christian country, the Mohammedan would probably request that an affirmation more suitable to his faith would be allowed.

    Justin
    October 31, 2005 - 10:56 pm
    Saladin was a forgiving man. Remember, that his daughter had been killed by the Christians, yet his terms for Jerusalem were extremely generous. He was a bigger man than all his antagonists who were overcome with greed.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 1, 2005 - 03:57 am
    On November 1, 2001, four years ago today, we started this discussion group. We opened with the first volume, "Our Oriental Heritage." Here is a re-print of my very first post.

    WELCOME TO ALL! Please consider the following:

    We are the product of those who came before us -- our parents, our ancestors of long ago, even primitive man. Our behaviors, our beliefs, and our physicial appearances have been handed down to us in an unbroken line. Everything develops from something else - either genetically or environmentally or both.

    Communication -- transportation -- the struggle for survival -- all existed at the dawn of history and even before. The methods changed ever so gradually over the millennia and eons but the inherent needs remain.

    In this, his first of 11 volumes, Will Durant wrote; "I wish to tell as much as I can, in as little space as I can, of the contributions that genius and labor have made to the cultural heritage of mankind." He adds, in observing the Orient which he sees as the scene of the primordial stew: "At this historic moment when the ascendancy of Europe is so rapidly coming to an end, when Asia is swellng with resurrected life, and the theme of the twentieth century seems destined to be an all-embracing conflict between the East and the West ... the future faces into the Pacific, and understanding must follow it there." And he wrote that in 1932!!

    And then he asks this penetrating question: "How shall an Occidental mind ever understand the Orient?" In order to simultaneously challenge and yet depress us, he answers his own question -- "Not even a lifetime of devoted scholarship would suffice to initiate a Western student into the subtle character and secret lore of the East."

    Are we, therefore, about to engage in a useless exercise? Or are we in fact becoming part of that unbroken line wherein we help to pass on to our descendants of tomorrow or 5,000 years from now our own behaviors, beliefs, and appearances. We read today's comments of those who live in the Near and Far East, we learn of new dangers taking place in our homeland being caused by those living on the other side of the earth, and day by day we become more acutely aware of our cultural differences.

    How can it be that a culture so different from ours was, in effect, the creator of all that we in the West now are? Let us plunge into a discussion that may change our thinking forever!! Perhaps plunge is not the proper approach. Let us dip our toes in ve-e-ery slo-o-o-ow - ly for two reasons.

    1) Almost every remark of Durant is meaty. It can be so easy to move rapidly past comments relevant to our discussion, and 2) Each civilization is a complete topic unto itself. Even the first topic (prehistoric man) has much to tell us about ourselves.

    Durant states that four elements constitute civilization:

    1 - Economic provision (our first sub-topic) 2 - Political organization 3 - Moral traditions 4 - Pursuit of knowledge and the arts

    Following Durant's line of progression, our first sub-topic, as indicated above, is "The Economic Elements of Civilization." Just below the dividing line in the Heading above are quotations which will be periodically changed. This is to help those participants here who have not yet obtained the book as well as helping us to stay together on a particular sub-topic. Volume One is eminently readable and the temptation is to post on comments made later in the book. I urge everyone here to stay together. It will be especially tempting to move ahead to the "civilized" societies. Primitive man, however, did much to create our society of today. Let us not ignore him.

    We are a lively group. There will be much disagreement and so it should be among thinking people. However, we will follow the usual Senior Net policy, i.e. all disagreement will be done in an agreeable way.

    I ask, also, that you pause regularly to admire our Heading here. Marjorie, who created the beautiful Heading that had been used with the discussion group, "Democracy in America," kindly consented to use her artistic and technical talents to create our attractive Heading above. I thank her profusely for this. A beautiful Heading is like a beautiful cover to a book. It sometimes determines whether the book is opened or not.

    Let us, therefore, start with Durant's comment: He says: "In one important sense, the 'savage,' too, is civilized, for he carefully transmits to his children the heritage of the tribe."

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 1, 2005 - 06:39 am

    It's hard to believe we've been here four years discussing these amazing books. Congratulations to our dedicated, loyal, hard-working facilitator, Dr. Robert Bancker Iadeluca, and to all the participants who have been here for the long stretch, or who drop in once in a while.

    For me it's been a fascinating study with the Durants' books, and even more fascinating to read all the comments from people who post. There have been ideas posted here I never would have dreamed of. Some have changed my view, along with the mammoth change in me that reading these books has brought.

    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 1, 2005 - 06:40 am

    Thank you, MARJORIE. You do a wonderful behind-the-scenes job.

    Mal

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    November 1, 2005 - 07:11 am
    Did we change at all since mankind progressed throughout this fabulous story? Are humans more human? With all our knowledge are we more peaceful? Or are we prepared to fight for what we want? What is this urge humans have to win a prize and fight for it?

    What has changed perhaps is that humans are more ‘organized’ for fighting than they were in primitive times because then wars were small wars compared to today. The one-on-one confrontation in today’s wars is gone taking away the exhilarating experience a soldier has while fighting.

    Soldiers don’t have the visual or physical contact with their enemy because the enemy is somewhere beyond and his task is to send projectiles at an object sometimes too far away to see. Sometimes one weapon is aimed at another with technology’s sophisticated weapon therefore gaining much more ground than in a one-on-one battle. Sometimes the only way to harm the enemy is to send a soldier to commit suicide and for some, this very act is a noble death comparable to killing an enemy on a one-on-one confrontation.

    All this didn’t happen in previous civilizations. But we have watched our own civilization rapidly follow the pattern 1 - Economic provision 2 - Political organization 3 - Moral traditions 4 - Pursuit of knowledge and the arts. Story of Civilization is an eye opener about what is happening in the world today and it has shown us that we have reached 4 – Pursuit of knowledge and the arts”.

    The cause of war is always the same, greed hiding behind religion. In any case 9/11 has proven us that power can be toppled by apparently harmless ignorant tribes who have infiltrated the powerful nation silently and secretly to help the enemy overtake a desired territory.

    The savage and us are one and the same humans with the same genetic urge to disagree while blaming others for the atrocities happening in the world.

    Éloïse

    Rich7
    November 1, 2005 - 09:03 am
    Where are all the contributors to this discussion?

    Well, lets try this for discussion material: Have you read "The Kite Runner?" There is an episode in the book that demonstrates to me, in a small way, how East and West changed roles, after the Crusades, re their attitude toward the values of civilization.

    After the Crusades (and, for that matter, probably during the later Crusades) Europe began to look more toward human achievement and the arts and sciences and away from being told by the clergy how their lives should be lived. I think that society in the Middle East went the other way, and, as a result, the Islamic civilization and culture began to wane.

    In the book, "The Kite Runner," the narrater, an Afgan, returned to Afganistan after it was liberated from the Taliban.

    In an idle moment he turned on the television. A call-in talk show was on at the time. The show featured a couple of bearded Mullahs who were answering call-in questions on living as a good Muslim.

    A father called in and stated that his son wears his pants so low around the waist that you can see the top of his underwear. "Is he going to Hell?" the father asked.

    The mullahs thought about it for a few moments, when the MC for the show interrupted for a commercial break. "We'll have your answer, Mr. Afgan, when we return from the break."

    After the break, they returned with their answer:

    "Mr. Afgan, your son is going to Hell."

    Rich

    kiwi lady
    November 1, 2005 - 11:23 am
    My views might not be popular but I tend to agree with some of the views the East has of the West. We may have so called freedom but some of that freedom has brought trouble.

    Violent video games - desensitise children from the reality of death and removes empathy.

    Explicit sex on TV - very young kids are experimenting. Heard an interesting program on the effects of unsuitable TV viewing on kids. We have very young women being rendered infertile because they have had untreated STD's.

    We have evolved into a society that feeds our desires without thought of consequence a lot of the time or the havoc it reaps on our emotional or physical well being.

    We are just too greedy as a society. Our values tend to revolve around the acquisition of "things" to the extent that in the West we are no longer replacing our population. We will end up with a huge elderly population eventually and nobody to care for them. We have abandoned the responsibility we used to have within the extended family. Family ties in many cases are not close.

    It is interesting to talk to a Muslim person and get their take on what they think of our society. There are a lot of issues they have that I do agree with. I am talking about a Moderate Muslim here not a fundamentalist.

    We do not seem to have learned much about getting on with each other despite all our education. We just cannot accept that our way of life is not desirable to all peoples. We think that we are superior and that we have the best Civilisation. Do we?

    Scrawler
    November 1, 2005 - 11:52 am
    We may have more knowledge of the world around us than our ancestors did, but I doubt that it has made us any more peaceful. If anything we have created new ways of killing each other. Once upon a time we imitated the animals, killing only what we could eat. But now....Perhaps it is time that we all get back to basics. Live and let live!

    MeriJo
    November 1, 2005 - 01:41 pm
    I did not join this discussion until "The Age of Faith" and so I may be repeating something already discussed. I hope I may add something new.

    There is no doubt that the Middle Eastern region provided an entrance into advanced forms of mathematics, astronomy and science. - It is the cradle of civilization. Things and events moved out in all directions as in the spokes of a wheel from this area. These encountered other peoples in various stages of growth and activity and the new knowledge acquired the particular regions' characteristics.

    Beginnings of these studies had taken place before Islam was founded, some by the Syriac Christians. There had also been a rich period of the development of knowledge during the Assyrian period. However there was doctrinal contention among the early Christians in the Middle East then, and the area became receptive to Mohammed's teachings.

    http://www.ewtn.com/library/chistory/eveislam.htm

    The Muslims became successful in the area because all spoke the same language, (People were required to learn Arabic.) were particularly fair to those whom they conquered, and because of the strength of the Arab armies.

    http://www.utoronto.ca/nmc/undergraduate/history.html

    The first link emphasizes the religious climate before Islam and the second includes descriptions of courses in Islamic history - I chose the last because the descriptions were informative in a short, succinct manner.

    Bubble
    November 1, 2005 - 02:19 pm
    There never was and never will be universal peace, it is like believing in Utopia.

    kiwi lady
    November 1, 2005 - 02:59 pm
    There are millions and millions of people who do not want conflict. It's our leaders who inflame and fuel conflict with powerful business interests egging them on, that is on both sides in my opinion. The poor general masses just get lumbered with the results of the chaos they create.

    Carolyn

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 1, 2005 - 06:45 pm
    The Third Crusade

    1189-92

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 1, 2005 - 07:08 pm
    "The retention of Tyre, Antioch, and Triplis left the Christians some strands of hope.

    "Italian fleets still controlled the Mediterranean, and stood ready to carry fresh Crusaders for a price. William, Archbishop of Tyre, returned to Europe and recounted to assemblies in Italy, France and Germany the fall of Jerusalem.

    "At Mainz his appeal so moved Frederick Barbarosa that the great Emperor, sixty-seven years old, set out almost at once with his army (1189) and all Christendom applauded him as the second Moses who would open a way to the Promised Land. Crossing the Hellespont at Gallipoli, the new hosts, on a new route, repeated the errors and tragedies of the First Crusade.

    "Turkish bands harassed its march and cut off its supplies. Hundreds starved to death. Frederick was drowned ignominiously in the little river of Salef in Cilicia (1190). Only a fraction of his army survived to join in the siege of Acre.

    "Richard I of the Lion Heart, recently crowned King of England at the age of thirty one, resolved to try his hand on the Moslems.

    "Fearing French encroachment, in his absence, upon English possession in France, he insisted that Philip Augustus should accompany him. The French king -- a lad of twenty three -- agreed. The two youthful monarchs received the cross from William of Tyre in a moving ceremony at Vezelay.

    "Richard's army of Normans (for few Englishmen took part in the Crusades) sailed from Marseille, Philip's army from Genoa, for a rendezvous in Sicily (1190). There the kings quarreled and otherwise amused themselves for half a year.

    "Now began a confused and unique campaign in which blows and battles alternated with compliments and courtesies while the English King and the Kurd Sultan illustrated some of the finest qualities of their civilizations and creeds.

    "Neither was a saint. Saladin could dispense death with vigor when military purposes seemed to him to require it. The romantic Richard permitted some interruptions in his career as a gentleman. When the leaders of besieged Acre delayed in carrying out the agreed terms of surrender, Richard had 2500 Moslem prisoners beheaded before the walls as a hint to hurry. When Saladin learned of this he ordered the execution of all prisoners thereafter taken in battle with the English King. Changing his tune, Richard proposed to end the Crusades by marrying his sister Joan to Saladin's brother al-Adil.

    "The Church denounced the scheme and it was dropped."

    Is war truly a game? N'ya, n'ya!! I gotcha! Is there any difference between men playing the game of war and boys playing with toy soldiers?

    Robby

    kiwi lady
    November 1, 2005 - 07:23 pm
    Y' know Robbie I have always thought it was little boys flexing their muscles. Of course those who order the troops to war are never involved in the front line conflict today. Perhaps if they had to lead the troops into battle they may be less keen to rush in before all diplomatic tactics are exhausted.

    MeriJo
    November 1, 2005 - 09:35 pm
    Robby:

    Your #534 describes, I think, a kind of rise and fall of strong peoples. It usually took a strong leader and an intelligent leader to direct his/her group toward progress.

    Each person is an entity unto himself/herself and if a leader of a country can successfully muster a group as the Muslims did who all spoke the same language, were united in a strong defense of their lands against invaders and very clearly fair with their conquered peoples, I think this would insure a kind of peace when intellecual pursuits could thrive.

    I am speaking here in terms of the group.

    However, even though there may be turmoil and unrest in certain parts of the world it has ever been heartening to see individuals succeed in making discoveries that succeed in spite of conflict. When this occurs it is through the fortitude and perseverance of the individual. Therefore, it is not indicative of failure of a government if the group becomes weak. That loss of power may come as a result of outside factors such as for example, disease, bad weather, crop failures and loss of trade. The group may recede for awhile and then regain a measure of strength in time. Yet, individual endeavors will continue - possibly quietly and out of sight.

    Quoting from the Smithsonian Timelines of the Ancient World: There were thriving economies from 800 AD to !000: Trade contacts in the Islamic Middle East led to the introduction of exotic drugs and spices such as cumin for medicine and spices. New tropical crops such as rice, sugarcane, cotton and watermelons could be planted in the summer which revoltionized farming practices.

    The caliphs of the Abbasid Dynasty (AD 750-1258) Iraq-based rulers of the Islamic Empire encouraged the study of astronomy, mathematics, geometry and engineering, since this research aided trade and navigation. Research led to the refinement of the astrolabe, a navigational tool originally invented by the Greeks.

    Despite political fragmentation in the Islamic Empire, Islamic culture thrived. Islam had spread rapidly across the Middle East and North Africa, but with the decline of the Abassid Dynasty, other more feudal local dynasties had grown and introduced a diminishing kind of life. Land fell into disuse as did the irrigation and sewer systems. A strong measure of cultural uniformity survived nonetheless; this was one of the greatest periods of Islamic arts and culture." Unquote.

    After this followed the Crusades, and the raids by Mongols and Turks over the Middle East.

    mabel1015j
    November 1, 2005 - 10:46 pm
    Yes, Carol, i too think the perpetuators of war should lead the troops into battle, or maybe it should be one-on-one as someone commented on earlier: George v. Saddam? I would bet everything i own that the war would never have happened had that been the way it would go.

    In "The Lion in Winter" it is suggested that Richard was gay or bi-sexual, was that dramatic license, or is there truth to it? ......jean

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 2, 2005 - 03:54 am
    "Richard's army met Saladin's at Arsuf and won an indecisive victory.

    "Saladin offered to renew battle but Richard withdrew his men within Jaffa's walls. Saladin sent him an offer of peace. During the negotiations Conrad, Marquis of Montferrat, who held Tyre, entered into separate correspondence with Saladin, proposing to become his ally and retake Acre for the Moslems if Saladin would agree to his approppriating Sidon and Beirut.

    "Despite this offer, Saladin authorized his brother to sign with Richard a peace yielding to the Christians all the coastal cities that they then held and half of Jerusalem. Richard was so pleased that he ceremoniously conferred knighthood upon the son of the Moslem ambassador.

    "A while later, hearing tht Saladin was faced with revolt in the East, he rejected Saladin's terms, besieged and took Darum and advanced to within twelve miles of Jerusalem. Saladin, who had dismissed his troops for the winter, called them back to arms.

    "Meanwhile dissension broke out in the Christian camp. Scouts reported that the wells on the road to Jerusalem had been poisoned and the army would have nothing to drink. A council was held to decide strategy. It voted to abandon Jerusalem and march upon Cairo, 250 miles away.

    "Richard, sick, disgusted and despondent, retird to Acre and thought of returning to England.

    "But when he heard that Saladin had again attcked Jaffa and had taken it in two days, Richard's pride revived him. With such troops as he could muster he sailed at once for Jaffa. Arrived in the harbor, he leaped to his waist into the sea. Swinging his famous Danish ax, he beat down all who resisted him, led his men into the city and cleared it of Moslem soldiery almost before Saladin could learn what had occurred.

    "The sultan summoned his main army to his rescue. It far outnumbered Richard's 3000 but the reckless courage of the King carried the day. Seeing Richard unmounted, Saladin sent him a charger, calling it a shame that so gallant a warrior should have to fight on foot. Saladin's sokdiers soon had enough. They reproached him for having spared the Jaffa garrison which was now fighting again.

    "Finally, if we may believe the Christian account, Richard rode along the Saracaen front, lance at rest and none dared attack him."

    I find interesting the respect that officers of one side in a battle/war often have and show respect for certain officers on the opposing side. Once again -- is it a game? Do major military leaders think of the long-term "moves toward civilization" or are they merely interested in "winning the game?"

    Any examples, past or present, of the honor and/or respect similar to that shown between Saladin and Richard?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 2, 2005 - 04:28 am
    Here is a book in which both Saladin and Richard are called LIONHEARTS.

    Robby

    Bubble
    November 2, 2005 - 05:50 am
    "Power always thinks it has a great soul and vast views beyond the comprehension of the weak, and that it is doing God's service when it is violating all His laws." - John Adams

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 2, 2005 - 06:23 am

    Richard and Saladin: picture

    Rich7
    November 2, 2005 - 07:20 am
    Also, if you go to Robby's last post (#550) and click on the book cover you get a different image of the two antagonists.

    Rich

    Rich7
    November 2, 2005 - 07:41 am
    Robby, in response to your question about honor and respect between adversaries, there are numerous citations of such events in the American Civil War.

    Winston Churchill called the American Civil War, "the last war between gentlemen."

    It's a matter of perception, I guess. Over 51,000 casualties were taken in the battle of Gettysburg, alone.

    Rich

    kiwi lady
    November 2, 2005 - 09:07 am
    I know that in the First World War the Officers of the Luftwaffe and the RAF had great respect for each other and if they were captured they did treat each other with respect.

    Carolyn

    Scrawler
    November 2, 2005 - 10:49 am
    To me war is nothing more than the fulfilment of greed and power on the part of both "powers that be". It is the people that suffer the most; not those in power. I just read that a mother and father are fighting over where to burry their son. That it should come to that is very sad.

    Chess:

    "In the eleventh century, Spain became the first European country introduced to chess, and through the travels of the Crusaders the game became a favorite of the cultured classes throughout Europe."

    Checkers:

    "The game of checkers began in Egypt as a form of wartime prognostication about 2000 B.C. and was known as "alquerqaue". There were "enemy" pices, "hostile" moves, and "captures." Examples of the game have been found in Egyptian tombs, and they, along with wall paintings, reeal that "alquerque" was a two-player game, with each player moving as many as a dozen pieces across a checkered matrix. Adopted and modified slightly by the Greeks and the Romans, checkers became a game for aristocrats. ~ "Panti's Exordinary Origins of Everyday Things"

    Perhaps, the aristocrats of the time got tired of playing board games and decided to put "real" people at risk!

    Bubble
    November 2, 2005 - 11:33 am
    Sid Meier created the original Civilization computer game in 1990. Civilization instantly set the standard and defined a new genre of empire-building strategy games and is still recognized as one of the greatest games of all time. The game is an addictive blend of building, exploration, discovery and conquest.

    http://www.civ3.com/

    And my son is addicted. He can spend over 15 straight hours stuck to his screen, his mouse clicking madly. He is over 30y old!

    kiwi lady
    November 2, 2005 - 11:50 am
    Bubble - We have just been talking about addiction to games. Experts feel we are losing the ability to communicate face to face and that it could actually break down Civilisation in time.

    I have a friend who is addicted to a game. The sun is shining and she is on her PC literally for hours with all the blinds drawn. I love my PC but I come on often in short bursts not in mammoth sessions.

    It is interesting to ponder how PC gaming is changing our civilisation particularly in the population of under 35's.

    MeriJo
    November 2, 2005 - 02:15 pm
    "Chess" is a derivative of "Chase" and it is an imitation of tactics of war.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 2, 2005 - 05:32 pm
    "Saladin's moderation, patience, and justice had defeated Richard's brilliance, courage, and military art.

    "The relative unity and fidelity of the Moslem leaders had triumphed over the divisions and disloyalties of the feudal chiefs. A short line of supplies behind the Saracens proved of greater advantage than Christian control of the seas.

    "The Christian virtues and faults were better exemplified in the Moslem sultan than in the Christian king. Saladin was religious to the point of persecution and allowed himself to be unreasonably bitter against the Templars and Hospitalers.

    "Usually, however, he was gentle to the weak, merciful to the vanquished and so superior to his enemies in faithfulness to his word that Christian chroniclers wondered how so wrong a theology could produce so fine a man.

    "He treated his servants with gentleness and himself heard all petitions. He 'esteemed money as little as dust' and left only one dinar in his personal treasury. Not long before his death he gave his son ez-Zahir instruction that no Christian philosopher could surpass.

    "He died in 1193, aged only fifty-five."

    I feel the same way and am thinking of leaving only one dollar to my family.

    Robby

    kiwi lady
    November 2, 2005 - 06:24 pm
    The rate things are going here Robby I may only have one dollar left to give to my family LOL

    kiwi lady
    November 2, 2005 - 06:25 pm
    Seriously though the average Muslim is not focused on accumulating money. Family values and charitable giving are a big part of their lives.

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    November 2, 2005 - 06:30 pm
    An inheritance is a gift that should not be anticipated even when it is deserved.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 3, 2005 - 04:04 am
    The Fourth Crusade

    1201-4

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 3, 2005 - 04:20 am
    "The Third Crusade had freed Acre but had left Jerusalem unredeemed.

    "It was a discouragingly small result from the participation of Europe's greatest kings. The drowning of Barbarosa, the flight of Philip Augustus, the brilliant failure of Richard, the unscrupulous intrigues of Christian knights in the Holy Land, the conflicts between Templars and Hospitalers, and the renewal of war between England and France broke the pride of Europe and further weakened the theological assurance of Christendom.

    "But the early death of Saladin and the breakup of his empire released new hopes. Innocent III, at the very outset of his pontificate, demanded another effort. Fulle de Neuilly, a simple priest, preached the Fourth Crusade to commoners and Kings.

    "The results were disheartening. The Emperor Frederick II was a boy of four. Philip Augustus thought one crusade enogh for a life time. Richard I, forgetting his last word to Saladin, laughed at Fulle's exhortations.

    "Innocent persisted. He suggested that a campaign agaianst Egypt could succeed through Italian control of the Mediterranean and would offer a means of approaching Jerusalem from rich and fertile Egypt as a base.

    "After much haggling Venice agreed, in return for 85,000 marks of silver, to furnish shipping for 4500 knights and horses, 9000 squires, 20,000 infantry and supplies for nine months. It would also provide fifty war galleys but on condition that half the spoils of conquest should go to the Venetian Republic.

    The Venetians, however, had no intention of attacking Egypt. They made millions annually by exporting timber, iron, and arms to Egypt and importing slaves. They did not propose to jeopardize this trade with war or to share it with Pisa and Genoa. While negotiating with the Crusaders' committee, they made a secret treaty with the sultan of Egypt guaranteeing that country against invasion.

    "Ernoul, a contemporary chronicler, alleges that Venice received a huge bribe to divert the crusade from Palestine."

    I am wondering if history shows any war which came into being without the underlying (and perhaps hidden) existence of monetary gain.

    Robby

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    November 3, 2005 - 06:55 am
    Right Robby, I wonder of soldiers are not aware that trade is behind every invasion when they set out to lose their lives for someone's greed and why would anybody volunteer unless they hope for some gain themselves. In conscription, it is entirely different, join or go to jail.

    When Durant writes about Italy I always have to remind myself that it was 4 separate states until 1870.

    Rich7
    November 3, 2005 - 09:57 am
    OK, here we go with a totally different perspective on the fourth Crusade.

    Amidst a group of leaders with macho names such as Barbarosa, Richard the Lion Hearted, Fredrick the Great, Philip Augustus, who do we have advocating another crusade?- a guy called Innocent. Lets face it, he has to prove his masculinity. Sort of like Willie Nelson's tune "A boy named Sue."

    Remember where you heard this theory first. (smile)

    By the way, did you know that the words for that song were written by Shel Silverstein, the childrens author? Who could forget "Where the Sidewalk ends?"

    Rich

    kiwi lady
    November 3, 2005 - 10:58 am
    Robby there have been many wars which have been triggered by reasons mainly to do with Nationalism and have not been in the first instance for monetary gain but then other nations have drawn sides to protect their commercial interests. There is the Balkan conflict which triggered the First World War. The unrest in the Balkans which continues even today and where conflict is forever only a hair breadths away goes back to land acquisition which goes back more than 500 years. This has translated into ethnic hatred. Other nations which have commercial interests in nations bordering the area of conflict will always have an interest in preventing conflict in that area.

    I do not myself know of any war that has not had a monetary reason attached to it even though the flame of war may have been lit purely for reasons of Nationalism or for reasons of religious fervour.

    MeriJo
    November 3, 2005 - 11:11 am
    It seems to me that war in and of itself presumes monetary gain for someone or another. War costs money. During medieval times gain often came in the form of land or precious minerals or stones.

    It is important to remember that the thinking in those days was to quash the infidel, Pope Innocent III, felt that there was much to be done in that regard. Without the means to mount an army he turned to one of the richest city-states in Italy, the Venetians. Many of these still appreciating Byzantine values and sense of enterprise saw an opportunity and used it to their advantage.

    It also took a long time to communicate. It's a wonder these long-distance transactions ever took place much less began.

    mabel1015j
    November 3, 2005 - 11:32 am
    For 200 years leaders and ordinary citizens pursued these "religious"wars. Is there a common motivation for all four of the crusades?

    Robby - do you see something psychological over the 200 years that kept people going back to such tragedy and personal destruction?

    Is it simply about greed, power, prestige; is there really a relgious base to the crusades? My God is the REAL God.

    Do men NEED to have ferocious, risk-taking activity? Sports? Expecially "extreme" sports? Is this why they are so popular today, because most men are not fighting wars or doing anything in their regular lives that gives them that kind of "rush"?

    MeriJo
    November 3, 2005 - 11:51 am
    mabel 1015:

    This is my opinion only.

    The Crusades may not have begun had not the Christian pilgrims begun to be attacked as they visited the Holy Land. Before the Islamists had allowed them to move about in peace.

    At the time, Christianity was dominant in the West and it was the guiding force for governments and peoples. There was a strong influence on the Europeans to practice Christianity in devout ways and, even in ways that appear extreme to us - such as fasting and wearing sackcloth and ashes for penance for a sin.

    When this attack occurred in the Holy Land, Christian leaders developed the idea that this new religion of Islam needed to be eliminated as it was hostile to others, Christians, in particular. They did believe that their faith was the True Faith.

    By this time, Mohammed's Islam was on the wane in the Middle East, and the invading Mongols and Turks were devastating the sanitary systems, water systems and irrigation systems that had heretofore produced such a fertile and healthy land. When these and other things fell into disuse and disrepair times grew hard and illness occurred. It was into this environment that the Christians of Europe came, and the disorder from it affected both the Muslims and the Europeans.

    The Muslims did continue to hold the area of the Middle East and even across North Africa, and the Europeans were still convinced that they needed to be eliminated. People being people, eventually, the Crusades petered out and subsequent encounters were negotiated instead of fought on a battle field.

    However, Islam continued with some changes brought about by the influx of new peoples, and the Christians continued to make pilgrimages to the Holy Land.

    mabel1015j
    November 3, 2005 - 01:55 pm
    Your opinion is not an "only" it is important and important to the discussion, we're all giving our opinions which is what makes it interesing.

    I was thinking of the bigger context of TWO HUNDRED YEARS, or for that matter, ONE THOUSAND YEARS, since we still seem to be in this fight. There must be something beyond just "I think my religion is better than your religion" that keeps this going..... does it just build into revengfulness and tit for tat? What propels human beings to continue this destruction?

    You all seem to be coming from different perspectives of geography, expertise, ethnicity, education, etc. so i hope you can add to my knowledge and perspective on this very big question.

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 3, 2005 - 03:11 pm

    I don't think homo sapiens has evolved very far from the very earliest version.

    There was a fight for survival with the kinds of foes most of us can't comprehend.

    There was Survival of the Fittest. The fittest were the strongest fighters.

    There was protection of property -- Don't touch my wives and kids or my rock or step over my boundary, or I'll smash your head wide open. Then I'll take everything you think is yours.

    There was everything we see today, including the fact that most of the homo saptiens don't use their brains very well. We are a gullible lot, and we have a tendency to follow the guy who flexes his muscles and acts as if he not only knows more than the rest of us, he'll beat up anyone who tries to contradict him.

    I believe it has always been like this. It's fairly recently that we've covered our true motives by saying we're fighting for ideas and principles.

    It is my strong conviction that it's going to take a few million years for us to progress very far beyond where we already are. One of the first steps is to remove the scales from our eyes. (Who said that?)

    Mal

    MeriJo
    November 3, 2005 - 04:49 pm
    It's hard to know what "pushes people's buttons." It's possible as time goes by one becomes more "mellow."

    However, ideology can play a large role if there is a perceived compelling reason to engage in an argument or fight over it. One may be seriously affronted if his/her ideals are disparaged. It would take a great deal of intestinal fortitude to keep from resorting to blows.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 3, 2005 - 07:03 pm
    "The Byzantine monarchy had learned nothing from the Crusades.

    "It gave little help and derived much profit. It regained most of Asia Minor and looked with equanimity upon the mutual weakening of Islam and the West in the struggle for Palestine.

    "The Emperor Manuel had arrested thousands of Venetians in Constantinople and had for a time ended Venetian commercial privileges there. Isaac II Angelus had not scrupled to ally himself with the Saracens.

    "In 1195 Isaac was deposed, imprisoned, and blinded by his brother Alexius III. Isaac's son, another Alexius, fled to Germany. In 1202 he went to Venice, asked the Venetian Senate and the Crusaders to rescue and restore his father and promised in return all that Byzantium could supply for their attack upon Islam.

    "Dandolo and the French barons drove a hard bargain with the youth. He was persuaded to pledge the Crusaders 200,000 marks of silver, equip an army of 10,000 men for service in Palestine and submit the Greek Orthodox Church to the Roman Pope.

    "Despite this subtle sop, Innocent III forbade the Crusaders, on pain of excommunication, to attack Byzantium. Some nobles refused to share in the expedition. A part of the army considered itself absolved from the Crusade and went home. But the prospect of capturing the richest city in Europe proved irresistible.

    "On October 1, 1202 the great fleet of 480 vessels sailed amid much rejoicing while priests on the war-castles of the ships sang Veni Creator Spiritus."

    Despite all the singing, I still hear in my ears the jingle of coins.

    Robby

    Justin
    November 3, 2005 - 10:50 pm
    Trevor has been insisting for some time that economics are the root cause of war.He may well be right. The spark that sets it off may be only remotely connected to the root issue and the enlistment jingle is often, My God is the ONLY true God.

    I think we are all aware that Japan attacked the the US, the Philippines, the East indies, China etc at the beginning of WW11 to ensure it's supply of oil and to expand its trading area.

    There does not seem to be much doubt that the US attacked Iraq for oil.

    Millosovich was interested in territorial expansion.

    North Korea wants trade but has funny way of going about it.

    The Crusades, while ostensibly about religious access were more about economic gain and the fun of crucifying a few thousand people. Urban, Paschel, and Innocent would have been voices in the wilderness were it not for the nobles and their interest in economic gain.

    mabel1015j
    November 4, 2005 - 12:08 am
    just noticed that on Sunday night at 9:00 the History Channel is showing the first of "a two-part history of the three crusades of the 11th to the 13th centuries" called Crusades: Crescent & the Cross.

    Bubble
    November 4, 2005 - 04:27 am
    another kind of war these days, Moslims involved.

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051104/ap_on_re_eu/france_rioting

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 4, 2005 - 04:55 am
    "An ultimatum was delivered to Alexius III.

    "He must restore the Empire to his blinded brother or to the young Alexius who accompanied the fleet. When he refused, the Crusaders landed against weak opposition before the walls of the city. The aged Dandolo was the first to touch the shore. Alexius III fled to Thrace.

    "The Greek nobles escorted Isaac Angelus from his dungeon to the throne and in his name a message was sent to the Latin chieftains that he was waiting to welcome his sons.

    "Alexius IV was crowned coemperor. But when the Greeks learned of the price at which he had bought his victory they turned against him in anger and scorn.

    "Meanwhile some Latin soldiers, horrified to find Moslems worshipping in a mosque in a Christian city, set fire to the mosque and slew the worshipers. The fire raged for eight days, spread through three miles, and laid a considerable section of Constantinople in ashes.

    "A prince of royal blood led a popular revolt, killed Alexius IV, reimprisoned Isaac Angelus, took the throne as Alexius V Ducas, and began to organize an army to drive the Latins from their camp at Galata. After a month of siege Alexius V fled and the victorious Latins passed the consuming locusts through the capital.

    "When the riot of rapine had subsided, the Latin nobles chose Baldwin of Flanders to head the Latin kingdom of Constantinople and made French its official language. The Byzantine Empire was divided into feudal dominions, each ruled by a Latin noble.

    "Venice, eager to control the routes of trade, secured Hadrianople, Epirus, Acarnania, the Ionian Isles, part of the Peloponnesus, Euboea, the Aegean Isles, Gallipoli, and three eighths of Constantinople. The Genoese were dispossessed of their Byzantine 'factories' and outposts. Dandolo, now limping in imperial buskins, took the title of 'Doge of Venice, Lord of One Fourth and One Eighth of the Roman Empire.' Soon afterward he died in the fullness of his unscrupulous success.

    "The Greek clergy were mostly replaced by Latins, in some cases precipitated into holy orders for the occasion. Innocent III, still protesting against the attack, accepted with grace the formal reunion of the Greek with the Latin Church.

    "Most of the Crusaders returned home with their spoils. Some settled in the new dominion. Only a handful reached Palestine and without effect.

    "Perhaps the Crusaders thought that Constantinople, in their hands would be a stronger base against the Turks than Byzantium had been. But generations of strife between the Latins and the Greeks now absorbed the vitality of the Greek world.

    "The Byzantine Empire never recovered from the blow. The capture of Constantinople by the Latins prepared, across two centuries, its capture by the Turks."

    Comments, please?

    Robby

    Rich7
    November 4, 2005 - 08:59 am
    French was once the official language of the kingdom of Constantinople? There's a little known bit of historical trivia.

    Also, the Greek and Latin church were reunited under force, not by theological concurrence.

    Interesting.

    Rich

    MeriJo
    November 4, 2005 - 02:45 pm
    The way Durant groups history I do wish we had some dates here.

    I have understood the Byzantine empire to have virtually capitulated to the Mongols and then the Turks as the small Ottoman tribe of Turks increased in power. Saladin was to have been of Mongolian roots, The Europeans had intermarried with the local Arabs and a new kind of population had formed. Constantinople may well have been Christian afterwards, but not that much. The Europeans that had remained as wives and husbands soon became Muslims.

    I wish we had a more chronological order for all the above.

    Rich7
    November 4, 2005 - 04:12 pm
    MeriJo, Your comment about Saladin being of Mongolian roots caught my attention. He was not an Arab or a Turk?

    Clicked my computer into "Google" and came up with Saladin being not Arab, not Mongolian, not Turkish, but a Kurd. He founded the Kurdish Ayyubid Dynasty.

    Now, the actual roots of the Kurds is not known. What is known is that the Kurds and Mongols fought each other often through early history. So who knows, maybe Saladin did have a Mongolian ancester in his family tree, but officially I have him on my scorecard here as a Sunni Muslim Kurd.

    Rich

    Rich7
    November 4, 2005 - 04:44 pm
    Learning more as I go. (That's what this is all about, right?)

    It seems that Saladin's reputation for fair play and honor made it all the way back to Europe. He was percieved (through European eyes) as a chivalrous knight, perhaps even more "Christian" than those who marched to Jerusalem to kill under the banner of Christianity. Dante and Sir Walter Scott chose to write about Saladin as a hero figure.

    It's not often that your adversary in warfare becomes a folk hero amoung your own people.

    Rich

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 4, 2005 - 05:26 pm
    Here is an email from Marcie:

    Hi, Robby,

    I thought you might be interested that that the History Channel is showing a program on the Crusades this week.

    I hope all is going well with you.

    Marcie

    MeriJo
    November 4, 2005 - 07:30 pm
    Rich7:

    I was mistaken. I knew he was not an Arab, but chose Mongol because of his Oriental dress in a link here. I did not research his heritage. That was my negligence.

    He was very different than his adversaries.

    I wish I could remember who played the role of Saladin in "The Crusades" years ago. Henry Wilcoxon played Richard, the Lion-Hearted, and I think, Loretta Young played the part of Richard's wife, Berengaria. Whoever played his part was soft-spoken and courtly in manner. One can imagine the Saladin described here from the characterization presented by that actor.

    3kings
    November 4, 2005 - 07:57 pm
    MeriJo. that last entry by Robby takes us through the fourth crusade, from 1202 to 1204. Saladin (1140-1193) ruled mainly during the 2 and 3rd crusades. It was soon after Saladin's death that the fourth crusade (in and about Palestine) occurred, and later still than that,(1220) the Mongols advanced westward, and began raiding Southern Russia and Eastern Europe, from Turkestan etc.

    I doubt that Saladin was much aware of the Mongols, and it is unlikely that he had any Mongol blood. ++ Trevor

    Fifi le Beau
    November 4, 2005 - 08:03 pm
    MeriJo, you asked about the need for dates from Durant. When Robby began this sub chapter in post #564 he announced in big bold letters 'Fourth Crusade' and under it the dates for this short sub chapter, 1201-04.

    Also on page 582, 583, 584 Durant lists a Chronological Table for Book V, the book we are currently discussing.

    Durant starts each chapter with the dates beneath the heading. He also puts dates under the sub chapters, and spreads dates through out the writing.

    Sometimes I go back to the beginning of the chapter to see what time period we are in as events unfold that begin in France, Germany, Palestine, Turkey, Syria, Mosul and then they all meet in different battles somewhere else. With all that wandering it is easy to get lost as to where we are, but Durant is a wonderful guide. I marvel at all the books he read and all the data he collected to give us this wonderful collection.

    Fifi

    Fifi le Beau
    November 4, 2005 - 08:29 pm
    Trevor, you and I were posting at the same time and answering the same question. Telepathy or simple coincidence? Simple coincidence of course.

    Fifi

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 5, 2005 - 04:13 am
    The Collapse of the Crusades

    1212-91

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 5, 2005 - 04:25 am
    "The scandal of the Fourth Crusade, added in a decade to the failure of the Third, gave no comfort to a Christian faith soon to be faced with the rediscovery of Aristotle and the subtle rationalism of Averroes.

    "Thinkers were much exercised to explain why God had allowed the defeat of His defenders in so holy a cause and had granted success only to Venetian villainy. Amid these doubts it occurred to simple souls that only innocence could regain the citadel of Christ.

    "In 1212 a German youth vaguely known to history as Nicholas announced that God had commissioned him to lead a crusade of children to the Holy Land. Priests as well as laity condemned him but the idea spread readily in an age even more subject than most to waves of emotional enthusiasm.

    "Parents struggled to deter their children but thousands of boys (and some girls in boys' clothing), averaging twelve years, slipped away and followed Nicholas, perhaps glad to escape from the monarchy of the home to the freedom of the road.

    "The swarm of 30,000 children, leaving mostly from Cologne, passed down the Rhine and over the Alps. Many died of hunger. Some strgglers were eaten by wolves. Thieves mingled with the marchers and stole their clothing and food.

    "The survivors reached Genoa where the earthy Italians laughed them into doubt. No ships would carry them to Palestine.

    "When they appealed to Innocent III he gently told them to go home. Some marched disconsolately back over the Alps. Many settled in Genoa and learned the ways of a commercial world."

    When I think of some of the uprisings in today's world, I realize that many of them were conducted by the youth. If I remember correctly, the attempted liberation of Hungary in 1958(?) was done by the young. The current French riots are by young Moslems. And many more examples.

    Robby

    Rich7
    November 5, 2005 - 08:19 am
    MeriJo,

    Ian Kieth played the role of Saladin, and you are right, Loretta Young played Richard's wife in C.B. DeMille's 1935 film "The Crusades".

    Rich

    Bubble
    November 5, 2005 - 08:55 am
    It took me a long time to realize Saladin is Salah al-Din!

    http://www.templarhistory.com/saladin.html

    "It is equally true that his generosity, his piety, devoid of fanaticism, that flower of liberality and courtesy which had been the model of our old chroniclers, won him no less popularity in Frankish Syria than in the lands of Islam"

    Renee Grousse The Epic of the Crusades Orion Press 1970 Translated from the French by Noel Lindsay


    This is as you said Rich.

    Rich7
    November 5, 2005 - 09:25 am
    To robby's question. It's always the young who take to the streets.

    You will never see a headline like this:

    SENIORS TAKE OVER METAMUCIL PLANT

    Hoardes of senior citizens overcome guards and occupy facility.

    The leader of the uprising, Norvid Unquist, was asked by a reporter, "Why this precipitious action?" His reply, "I don't remember, but I'm sure it was for a good reason."

    Rich

    Traude S
    November 5, 2005 - 09:29 am
    Yes, many political uprisings were initiated by youths, specifically university students, but those in that failed crusade were children! Twelve-year old children.

    In addition to the German group there was a French group. Stephen of Cloyes, a 12-year old shepherd boy, arrived at the court of King Philip of France in 1212 saying he had a letter from Christ. The king told him to come back when he was older.

    But Stephen went around preaching and is said to bave gathered 30,000 followers, all children. He told them that crossing the Mediterranean would be easy as the waters would part and they would walk across.
    Many children had never walked that far before; many dropped out, some died of exhaustion. The young pilgrims went as far as Marseilles, but the certifiable record ends there.

    The Hungarian uprising was in 1956; the Czech uprising in 1968.

    RICH, Holy Roman Emperor Friedrich I. was given his moniker by the Italians because of his red beard : barba = beard; rossa = red.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 5, 2005 - 11:57 am
    Were the members of the Children's Crusade IMPETUOUS?

    Robby

    Bubble
    November 5, 2005 - 12:05 pm
    Children today are more mature and know more than at any time before, maybe because of the freedom of access of the internet, maybe because information is nowadays available from so many various sources. Children are not relagated to their rooms when grown ups talk but can freely participate as equals, here at least.

    That is not to say that they can't be impulsive and apt to make rush decisions without weighing the consequences, but they are not ignorant of those consequences.

    MeriJo
    November 5, 2005 - 12:19 pm
    Trevor and Fifi:

    Thank you both very much. I had the impression I had read of the emperors named Alexius before.

    "Prior to the time of the reecapture of Jerusalem by Saladin in 1197, Seljuk Turks had migrated into the Middle East and captured control of that area before 1092. The Seljuks formed part of a massive migration of Turkish-speaking nomads that continued until the `12th century." (Smithsonian Timeline)

    The Mongols followed. Movement was from the north and it was slow.

    http://history.binghamton.edu/hist130/docs/timelin3.htm

    MeriJo
    November 5, 2005 - 12:41 pm
    Thank you Rich7.

    I can't recall an Ian Keith, but he was excellent as Saladin in that movie. My Goodness, that was back in 1935. I had asked on the Golden Age of Entertainment - Movies about that actor and some of the posters gave links. That movie got a very good review. Cecil B. DeMille directed.

    MeriJo
    November 5, 2005 - 02:21 pm
    The children in the Children's Crusade could have been impetuous. There seems to have been a good measure of impetuosity and certainly thoughtlessness and ignorance They were definitely brainwashed into leaving their countries. The movement was started by a young shepherd from France and another from Cologne and extended into France and Italy. However, many of the youngsters - thousands had been gathered by these two leaders - died on the way or were taken into slavery and those that reached Brindisi on the east coast of Italy ended their journey there. They were taken as slaves by the Moors.

    mabel1015j
    November 5, 2005 - 02:31 pm
    and to define Marci's message, the Crusades show on History Channel is Sunday night, 9:00

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 5, 2005 - 03:06 pm
    HERE are some definitions of the word "Crusade" plus some time lines of the Crusades.

    Robby

    kiwi lady
    November 5, 2005 - 04:40 pm
    I find Children today may know a lot about some things but they are woefully ignorant about world affairs in most cases and are a lot less independant than we were.

    Carolyn

    Rich7
    November 5, 2005 - 04:42 pm
    has become part of the English language wholly separate from its original medieval meaning. Any campaign toward a goal may be called a crusade in common usage. (It may be as inane as working toward a weight loss objective.)

    As a pre teen growing up in an urban environment a group of us got together and formed a club (now, they would call it a gang), and we needed a name for ourselves.

    The name that evoked bravery, honor, skill in combat, fraternal loyalty, etc.,etc, was obvious to us. We called ourselves "The Crusaders" and ironed letters spelling "Crusaders" across the backs of our jackets.

    We really felt that we looked cool. Never a thought was given to liberating Jerusalem, or making the pilgrimage routes to the Holy Land safer for travelers, we just wanted to look good for the girls.

    Rich

    Justin
    November 5, 2005 - 07:15 pm
    It is hard to understand why anyone (simple or complex) would think that "innocence" could be successful in a holy crusade when only Venice had been successful in the past.

    The children of the Children's Crusade were preyed upon, abandoned, sexually abused and sold into slavery. Most of these children were boys who were precious to their families for very often family survival depended on male children. Popes and emperors may have said," go home,little men" but what did the local churches and priests do to foster the movement? They could have stopped the movement. Twelve year olds may be fanciful but they are not rebellious. That comes later.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 6, 2005 - 05:51 am
    "Innocent III, at the Fourth Lateran Council again appealed to Europe to recover the land of Christ and returned to the plan that Venice had frustrated -- an attack upon Egypt.

    "In 1217 the Fifth Crusade left Germany, Austria, and Hungary under the Hungarian King Andrew and safely reached Damietta, at the easternmnost mouth of the Nile.

    "The city fell after a year's siege. Malik al-Kamil, the new Sultan of Egypt and Syria, offered terms of peace -- the surrender of most of Jerusalem, the liberation of Christian prisoners, the return of the True Cross. The Crusaders demanded an indemnity as well which al-Kamil refused. The war was resumed but went badly. Expected reinforcements did not come.

    "Finally an eight-ytear truce was signed that gave the Crusaders the True Cross but restored Damietta to the Moslems and required the evacuation of all Christian troops from Egyptian soil.

    "The Crusaders blamed their tragedy upon Frederick II, the young Emperor of Germany and Italy.

    "He had taken the crusader's vow in 1215 and had promised to join the besiegers at Damietta. Political complications in Italy and perhaps an inadequate faith detained him.

    "In 1228 while excommunicate for his delays, Frederick set out on the Sixth Crusade. Arrived in Palestine, he received no help from the good Christians there who shunned an outlaw from the Church. He sent emissaries to al-Kamil who was now leading the Saracen army at Nablus. Al-Kamil replied courteously.

    "The Sultan's ambassador, Fakhru'd Din, was imprssed by Frederick's knowledge of the Arabic language, literature, science, and philosophy. The two rulers entered into a friendly exchange of compliments and ideas. To the astonishment of both Christendom and Islam they signed a treaty (1229) by which al-Kamil ceded to Frederick Acre, Jaffa, Sidon, Nazareth, Bethlehim and all of Jerusalem except the enclosure -- sacred to Islam -- containing the Dome of the Rock. Christian pilgrims were to be admitted to this enclosure to perform their prayers on the site of Solomon's temple. Similar rights were to be enjoyed by Mohammedans in Bethlehem. All prisoners on either side were to be released.

    "For ten years and ten months each side pledged itself to peace. The excommunicate Emperor had succeeded where for a century Christendom had failed. The two cultures, brought together for a moment in mutual understanding and respect, had found it possible to be friends.

    "The Christians of the Holy Land rejoiced but Pope Gregory IX demounced the pact as an insult to Christendom and refused to ratify it. After Frederick's departure the Christian nobility of Palestine took control of Jerusalem and allied the Christian power in Asia with the Moslem ruler of Damascus against the Egyptian Sultan (1244). The latter called to his aid the Khwarazmian Turks who captured Jerusalem, plundered it, and massacred a large number of is inhabitants.

    "Two months later Baibars defeated the Christians at Gaza and Jerusalem once more fell to Islam (October, 1244)."

    Mutual understanding and respect between leaders outweighed beliefs in religious doctrine.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 6, 2005 - 06:53 am
    Would someone please tell me what ( if anything ) the Crusades accomplished besides the spread of "seed" and languages?
    "Why did only Britain, of all the Roman provinces overrun by Germans, end up speaking a Germanic language? Why did the Portuguese language 'take' in Brazil, but not in Africa, while Dutch 'took' in Africa but not in Indonesia?"
    Get some answers by reading this article about Empires of the Word: A Language History of the World

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 6, 2005 - 07:47 am
    This does not relate to the Crusades but most certainly relates to the major theme of this discussion - WHAT ARE OUR ORIGINS? WHERE ARE WE NOW? WHERE ARE WE HEADED?

    Robby

    Rich7
    November 6, 2005 - 07:51 am
    Robby,

    There's a Gauguin painting titled almost exactly as the words in your question. I can't find it, however.

    Help, anyone?

    Rich

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 6, 2005 - 07:56 am
    Rich:-I assume you realize you have read those very words every single time you have entered this discussion.

    Robby

    Rich7
    November 6, 2005 - 08:13 am
    Robby,

    I do now that you reminded me. I had forgotten that it's in the heading of our everyday discussion. (blush)

    That may be why it was so familiar to me.

    I'd still like to find that Gauguin painting titled with almost those exact words.

    Rich

    Ann Alden
    November 6, 2005 - 09:17 am
    I am now sitting down to read post #607 link. Thanks, Robby!

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 6, 2005 - 09:28 am
    I invited Ann in to read the link in Post 607 because of her literary interest. Is there a literary link to our origins and where we are headed? What are your reactions to that link?

    Robby

    Rich7
    November 6, 2005 - 10:12 am
    where are we going?

    Believed by many to be Paul Gauguin's greatest masterpiece.

    (click on the image to enlarge to full page.)

    http://www.artchive.com/artchive/G/gauguin/where.jpg.html

    Rich

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 6, 2005 - 10:23 am
    Thank you, Rich. Very thought provoking.

    Robby

    Justin
    November 6, 2005 - 04:14 pm
    Rich: D'ou venons-nous? Que sommes nous? Ou allons-nous? The work was done in Tahiti in 1897. It is Gauguin's Spiritual Testament to his daughter who had recently died. When he finished the painting which is an exploration of the meaning of existance he walked up a mountain where he swallowed an overdose of arsenic. It did not kill him.

    The work is influenced by that of Puvis de Chavannes who painted images of classical antiquity.

    The life cycle of man is laid out from right to left in the paiting. Mothers and a baby enjoy life innocently in the left foreground. They have no concern for origins.The central figure in the diaper, plucking the forbidden fruit from the tree of knowldge is our own Eve. That leads to the Fall and the metaphysical questions asked by the European dressed figures who are now aware of their sex organs.A blue Goddess appears to offer hope and a young woman on the right is enthralled by the offer but the old woman in the left corner refuses to listen to that tripe. She signifies the blind cycle of life and death or death and regeneration.

    Why are we here and where are we going? Is it all about nothing?

    MeriJo
    November 6, 2005 - 04:18 pm
    #607 is very rich in content - all those famous people -

    I would like to address just the "Pride and Prejudice" question from a practical point for early nineteenth century England.

    The mother wanted to get the girls married well because the family's finances were such that spinster daughters would be expensive if they wished to continue to live in the matter in which they had been accustomed.

    In England, at that time, boys of the upper middle class may not have posed a problem for a family unless the finances dwindled away - and this was likely to happen more often than not as it was not considered copasetic for young men of a certain class to work. Then, it would be incumbent on the mother or parents to find a rich girl. It would help if the boy came from a "good" family although down on its luck.

    I don't know how long the belief that upper middle class men should not work lasted, but it seems that it would have produced boredom if they were unable to join their father in business, or the ministry, or a profession. This would leave some who were unable for health reasons to "join their regiment" doing literally nothing but socialize on occasion.

    What did other countries prescribe for their young adults?

    It is certainly true that the words, "genes" was unknown then, but a sense of heritage was believed at that time, hence, the search for a "good" family.

    Traude S
    November 6, 2005 - 04:50 pm
    MERIJO, you asked "what did other countries prescribe for their young adults?", a very pertinent question.
    From my frame of reference and experience I can answer much the same in several European countries.
    Material considerations were all-important, and so was marrying 'up'.

    Fifi le Beau
    November 6, 2005 - 07:35 pm
    Robby's last posting from Durant was so interesting and full of human experience it makes the 'Literary Darwinists' article look like hen scratching.

    "Innocent III, at the Fourth Lateran Council again appealed to Europe to recover the land of Christ and returned to the plan that Venice had frustrated -- an attack upon Egypt.

    The Pope seems more interested in taking over Egypt than recovering the land of Christ. Greed reigns over religion.

    "In 1217 the Fifth Crusade left Germany, Austria, and Hungary under the Hungarian King Andrew and safely reached Damietta, at the easternmnost mouth of the Nile.

    "The city fell after a year's siege.

    An entire year waiting at the gates and camping in the country side. How did this army eat and survive being in strange territory? The city must have had great stores of goods to last a year while under siege. This shows great patience on the part of both leaders to avoid a fight.

    Malik al-Kamil, the new Sultan of Egypt and Syria, offered terms of peace -- the surrender of most of Jerusalem, the liberation of Christian prisoners, the return of the True Cross. The Crusaders demanded an indemnity as well which al-Kamil refused. The war was resumed but went badly. Expected reinforcements did not come.

    The Sultan gave what seemed to be good terms, but he balked at paying off the Crusaders. Territory, people, prisoners and etc. had less meaning to both these antagonists than money. Again capital tops people. There's a Darwinian puzzle for you. When did the love of money (in all its forms) become more important than the lives of men?

    "Finally an eight-year truce was signed that gave the Crusaders the True Cross but restored Damietta to the Moslems and required the evacuation of all Christian troops from Egyptian soil.

    All that patience and the greed of the Crudaders left them with much less than they could have had before. Greed seems to have been an evolutionary trait for some from the beginning. All people are not greedy, so this trait developed in some but not in others.

    "In 1228 while excommunicate for his delays, Frederick set out on the Sixth Crusade. Arrived in Palestine, he received no help from the good Christians there who shunned an outlaw from the Church. He sent emissaries to al-Kamil who was now leading the Saracen army at Nablus. Al-Kamil replied courteously.

    The Pope was impatient and threw stragglers out of the church. Is dragging one's feet a reason for losing one's religion? Once so branded, the follow the herd instinct takes over. Is that a Darwinian evolutionary example? The shunning of Frederick by the Christians because one man said he was out of favor.

    "The Sultan's ambassador, Fakhru'd Din, was impressed by Frederick's knowledge of the Arabic language, literature, science, and philosophy. The two rulers entered into a friendly exchange of compliments and ideas.

    When two people meet and become instant friends, is there some evolutionary process that has made us look in favor on certain people, no matter their differences.

    These two leaders accomplished what all the others had failed to do through conversation not war.

    "The Christians of the Holy Land rejoiced but Pope Gregory IX denounced the pact as an insult to Christendom and refused to ratify it.

    How did a man evolve who when handed everything the Crusaders wanted, refused the great gift and preferred to destroy all the Crusaders work in one fell swoop? Gregory seemed to have the 'me' syndrome, that allowed no room for success by others.

    "Two months later Baibars defeated the Christians at Gaza and Jerusalem once more fell to Islam (October, 1244)."

    Stay in enemy territory long enough and you will get your comuppence. So many deaths, so much misery, so many ruined lives, and in the end the Pope would give it all up to win an argument. This reminds me of something I read once, "We're here to help you, if we have to kill everyone here to do it."


    Fifi

    MeriJo
    November 6, 2005 - 09:12 pm
    Fifi:

    Don't forget that you are reading Durant's "Story of Civilization". He has the tendency to give his sentences a sense of drama and activity limited to those he mentions.

    Historically, all this took a lot of time.

    The western world at that time was wholly dominated by Christianity in all its correct and incorrect interpretations. The recovery of the Holy Land, I would say, became an obsession for some popes because as my father used to say, "Their brains didn't reach that far."

    As for greed, it has always been around.

    Fifi le Beau
    November 6, 2005 - 09:24 pm
    Robby I read your link to "The Literary Darwinists". I called the article 'hen scratching' in my previous post, but something stronger is needed after suffering through it to the end.

    When in school and later college I read all the required literature and much more on my own. History was my major, so non fiction soon took over all my reading habits, and continues to this day. I have never read a book of fiction that could compare to history.

    Durant has given us more data on evolution in a few pages than Jane Austen could in a whole book based on her small secure world. Her work is for twelve to fourteen year old girls, which is when I read it, and to squeeze evolutionary theory out of this tale set in a middle class neighborhood in England that represents such a small minority is ridiculous. Ninety nine percent or more of English girls did not have this experience.

    Yale has done a three part series on childhood called "The history of the European Family". The Yale books are deep sourcing, not 'deep interpretation'. They didn't rely on personal documents such as letters and diaries or books, because such evidence tells us only about a small minority of people (mostly moneyed, mostly male) who in that time could write. (Take note, Jane Austen)

    One small example they found, as late as the nineteenth century, seventy five per cent of boys and fifty per cent of girls in western Europe were 'in life service', that is working as domestic servants (girls) or as apprentices or farmhands (boys). In earlier times the percentage was higher.

    There were servants in Pride and Prejudice but no one is telling how they approached the prospect of marriage and life. So Austen's tale covers such a small sample of English women, it could not possibly be looked at as an evolutionary example.

    Most children in Europe worked beginning at age seven. Boys could tend sheep, gather firewood, etc. Girls carded wool and spun cotton and helped around the house until they were sent to work in other peoples houses.

    Loftur Guttormsson, of the University of Iceland, quotes one of his countrymen, born in 1883, describing the leave taking. "Now came the last opportunity to turn around and see my mother, where she remained standing on the rock Snos. I was twelve years old and the fifth child she had to send away from home into the unknown." Most of the children left between the ages of ten and fifteen and stayed away for perhaps five years or more. Some never returned.

    Quite a different experience from Austen's silly girls who sat around all day planning how to snare a man. The attraction between men and women seems to be biological having to do with hormones, and we've had that since we were blobs floating in the ocean, and no evolution was necessary.

    The lowest animal on the evolutionary scale reproduces without fan fare, so where's the connection to literature. It has none, nada, zilch, zero.

    Anyone who wants to see evolution in progress should join in the SOC discussion by Durant or read Durant's series.

    Fifi

    MeriJo
    November 6, 2005 - 09:40 pm
    Mal:

    I read your history of language link, and it is very informative. The question about why Brazilians speak Portuguese instead of Spanish is because when Cabral landed in Brazil in 1500 there followed a discussion about to which country the new discovery would belong.

    Again with the Popes. It seems that popes had a lot to do with assigning countries and the pope at the time the question was posed drew a line from north to south on a most imperfect map, apparently, of South America and proclaimed that all land to the east would be Portugal's and all land to the west would be Spain's, and so the language took root.

    I read this somewhere. I wish I could remember, but I could not find the source. It was in a book - it may be Dana Sobel's "Longitude", but heaven knows where our copy is now - somewhere in one of my son's book cases, perhaps.

    MeriJo
    November 6, 2005 - 10:01 pm
    FIFI:

    I had a different impression of "The Literary Darwinists". I sensed the author was offering selected examples. Stephen Pinker, the eminent linguist-pyschologist has written several books about the brain which are extraordinary to read but occupy themselves with what may occur in the brain to determine behaviors - but he is living and his words relate to the present as does Edward Wilson's, the biologist. in his book - the only one I have read in part - very scientific - "Consilience" - that takes another direction. As for Darwin, I get the feeling he recorded what he observed more than determining what could be happening because he lived in an era when the words used today were not invented yet - such as "neurotic" or "neurology". I think the author was selecting examples of a work in progress.

    It's the pheromones that worked for everyone - probably easier for the peasants than the gentry and certainly something of the sort between Frederick, the excommunicated, and his Muslim counterpart, Al-Kamil. (Both these men must have had loving and sensible upbringing.)

    MeriJo
    November 6, 2005 - 10:03 pm
    Justin:

    Thank you very much for your explanation of Gauguin's painting. I had seen it, but had never really heard of its meaning.

    MeriJo
    November 6, 2005 - 10:49 pm
    This is how Frederick came to know so much about The Muslims and Arabic language.

    Frederick at this time was chiefly solicitous about Sicily, towards which he was drawn by his Norman parentage on the mother's side, while the character of his own German people did not attract his sympathies. He had grown up in Sicily where Norman, Greek, and Mohammedan civilization had intermingled, at once strengthening and repelling one another. The king, endowed with great natural ability, had acquired a wonderful fund of learning which made him appear a prodigy to his contemporaries, but, although he was intimately acquainted with the greatest productions of eastern and western genius, his soaring spirit never lost itself in romantic dreams. He eagerly studied both the more and the less important interests of the political and economical life of Southern Italy.

    This tells how Frederick became excommunicated the first time. He was released from excommunication and then excommunicated again. I think he was excommunicated a third time, also.

    It was his serious intention to carry out his promise to begin his crusade in August, 1227 (under pain of excommunication), but a malignant fever destroyed a great part of his army and prostrated the king himself. Nevertheless Gregory IX declared Frederick excommunicated (29 Sept., 1227), showing by this step that he considered the time had come to break the illusive peace and to clear up the situation.

    The following gives more detail.

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06255a.htm

    Justin
    November 7, 2005 - 12:40 am
    I hope everyone took the opportunity to watch the History channel's presentation of the first Crusade. It is in two parts. The last part will be shown to morrow night at 9 pm.

    We today, have witnessed atrocities of unbelievable magnitude but the atrocities committed by the Christians upon the Christians of the Eastern Orthodox when found inside the walls of Edessa, Antioch, and Jerusalem far exceeds anything we have known today. The Holocaust was bad because of the numbers of people murdered and the ethnic cleansing characteristic. But the savagery of the Crusaders, impaling children and eating their flesh, torturing women for the fun of it, killing every last person in the cities, etc.(the crusaders were starving outside the walls during the siege) approaches the outer bounds of human action.

    Some of that was brought out in the broadcast.

    It is very difficult to link such Christian actions with the teaching of Jesus and yet these crusaders were his followers as seen through the eyes of the priesthood.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 7, 2005 - 05:00 am
    The Results of the Crusades

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 7, 2005 - 05:17 am
    "Of their direct and professed purposes the Crusades had failed.

    "After two centuries of war, Jerusalem was in the hands of the ferocious Mamluks and Christian pilgrims came fewer and more fearful than before.

    "The Moslem powers, once tolerant of religious diversity, had been made intolerant by attack. The Palestinian and Syrian ports that had been captured for Italian trade were without exception lost. Moslem civilization had proved itself superior to the Christian in refinement, comfort, education, and war.

    "The magnificent effort of the popes to give Europe peace through a common purpose had been shattered by nationalistic ambitions and the 'crusades' of popes against emperors.

    "Feudalism recovered with difficulty from its failure in the Crusades.

    "Suited to individualistic adventure and heroism within a narrow range, it had not known how to adjust its methods to Oriental climates and distant campaigns. It had bungled inexcusably the problem of supplies along a lengthening line of communications. It had exhausted its equipment and blunted its spirit by conquering not Moslem Jerusalem but Christian Byzantium.

    "To finance their expeditions to the East, many knights had sold or mortgaged their properties to lord, moneylender, Church, or king. For a price they had resigned their rights over many towns in their domains. To many peasants they had sold remission of future feudal dues. Serfs by the thousands had used the crusader's privilege to leave the land and thousands had never returned to their manors.

    "While feudal wealth and arms were diverted to the East, the power and wealth of the French monarchy rose as one of the major results of the Crusades. At the same time both the Roman Empires were weakened.

    "The Western emperors lost prestige by their failures in the Holy Land and by their conflicts with a papacy exalted by the Crusades. The Eastern Empire, though reborn in 1261, never regained its former power or repute.

    "The Crusades, however, had this measure of success, that without them, the Turks would have taken Constantinople long before 1453.

    "Islam, too, was weakened by the Crusades and fell more easily before the Mongol flood."

    As we know from today's news, the Moslems have long memories. To them, Islamic civilization is far superior to that which we have in the West.

    Robby

    Rich7
    November 7, 2005 - 06:53 am
    Justin, thank you for the outstanding explanation of Gauguin's painting, "Where Do We Come From, What Are We, Where Are We Going?" I saw it displayed a couple of years ago as part of a traveling Gauguin exhibit at the Boston Museum of Fine Arts. It was huge! Floor to ceiling, occupying the entire length of a wall. To look at it, you would sit on a small, backless bench and be capable of taking in only a small portion of it a time... it was so large and full of cryptic detail. I only wish that, at the time, the museum had someone like you there to explain the painting so thoroughly.

    As for Durant, I'm disappointed in his analysis of the results of the Crusades (post #627). I have always felt that the Crusades brought back from the East the seeds for the beginning of an enlightenment (small "e") in arts and sciences that ultimately brought the West out of the Middle Ages.

    I'll take heart in the fact that Durant's first sentence stated that "Of their direct and professed purposes the Crusades had failed." Durant probably has more to say, later, about the indirect benefits of the Crusades.

    Rich

    MeriJo
    November 7, 2005 - 08:21 am
    Let us remember here that the Crusades began with the purpose of allowing Christian people to visit the Holy Land. The violence began with the action of a mad Fatimid caliph.

    Let us remember, too, that with that action the Middle East which had been subjected to heresies and schisms within the Church before had been unstable and disunited since Constantine, who had at first embraced the Arian heresy. There came the formation of the Eastern Orthodox Church which itself had split off into various ideologies. (Spiritually, the Middle East was far more in an upheaval than was thought by the Latin hierarchy.)

    The Popes were aware of this and wanted a Latin presence in the Holy Land. It became untenable because of the disarray of the Crusaders in their efforts to reclaim the holy places. These were untrained people - there was no order nor discipline, and probably not as inspired with lofty ideals as was hoped.

    Egypt was important to be included in the effort of the Crusades because it had seen the rise of the Coptic Church, and the popes hoped to establish a presence there, as well. Christianity had taken root there early, and had thrived.

    There were other factors present. The nomadic Turks had found their way south into the Middle East and increased their power. They had no idea of how to care for the water and sewer systems the earlier Islamics had installed and these became neglected. As they deteriorated there occurred illness and a shortage of food.

    Taking the picture of that part of the country with just this small bit of information I have posted presents a scene for failure - no matter what could have been done.

    No Pope ever went to the Middle East during these centuries and could never fathom the want and conditions that developed as a result of their well-motivated (as far as the Latin Church was concerned) but woeful lack of plan and preparation.

    Combine all of this with the thinking of the times and one has a recipe for disaster.

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 7, 2005 - 08:29 am
    "I have always felt that the Crusades brought back from the East the seeds for the beginning of an enlightenment . . . in arts and sciences that ultimately brought the West out of the Middle Ages."
    How, RICH? How did this blood bath and all this carnage in the name of religion take the West out of the Middle Ages?

    Mal

    MeriJo
    November 7, 2005 - 08:32 am
    Rich7:

    One of the results of the Crusades was the discovery of America.

    I shall not add anymore because Durant may explain that event more fully.

    MeriJo
    November 7, 2005 - 08:34 am
    I think Rich is right, Mal.

    Rich7
    November 7, 2005 - 08:45 am
    Mal, Good morning!

    An excerpt from Helicon Publishing:

    "Despite their military failure, the Crusades brought several benefits to Europe. Relations between European Christian settlers living in the Middle East and their Muslim neighbors were often more friendly than the supporters of the Crusades might suggest. Trade between Europe and the Middle East increased greatly, particularly in the hands of Venetian and Genoese merchants. Sugar, cotton, and many other things now in everyday use first became known in Europe through the Crusades. There was also a considerable exchange of knowledge; European scholars gained access to learning from Classical Greece and Rome that had survived only thanks to Arabic scholars, and these and the works of the Arabic philosophers themselves helped to pave the way for the Renaissance in Europe."

    Rich

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 7, 2005 - 09:38 am

    Okay, RICH, thanks. I can't wait to get back to Pennsylvania this coming weekend and see what Durant has to say. I feel as if I'm at a disadvantage here in NC without my books.

    MERIJO, I didn't say RICH was wrong.

    Mal

    Rich7
    November 7, 2005 - 12:03 pm
    Mal, I know you didn't say I was wrong.

    (For anyone who cares, Mal was the first person to welcome me to Senior Net.)

    Reading up on Gauguin, I came across a clever quote of his:

    "I'm still an atheist, thank God!".....Paul Gauguin

    Rich

    Scrawler
    November 7, 2005 - 12:12 pm
    I saw the first part of the History Channel's history of the crusades. They appear to be discussing the first two crusades. The first thing that struck me about the discussion was the fact that the pope stated that anyone who would take of the cross and go on a crusade would be forgiven of their sins and go to heaven. I find it hard to believe that the pope had such a power to guarantee that anyone would go to heaven. But I guess it is all a matter of belief especially when the local priests were on a tirad that if you didn't repent your sins you were going to hell. The crusades were a way to get the knights away from destroying their own land and fighting someone other than themselves.

    When the pope spoke of infidels, however, he included everyone that wasn't western Christians. After Antioch was taken, I got the impression from the program, that the nobles and wealthy had gotten what they wanted and would have been just as happy to stay in Antioch and enjoy the riches of that city than continue the crusade. But it was the serfs and a few nobles who had gone on the crusade in order to kill infidels and assure that they would be repented of their sins and go to heaven that did the atrocities that the program alluded to. Perhaps, the other nobles were shamed into continuing their pledge to the cross.

    The last thing I took away from this program was the thought that Moslem still shiver at the word crusade as was when our American president after 9/11 said that America would go on a "crusade."

    Justin
    November 7, 2005 - 12:22 pm
    I don't see anything unusual about Popes forgiving sin and sending people to heaven. If you have invented sin and heaven you can do with it what ever you wish. It's their toy to play with.

    MeriJo
    November 7, 2005 - 05:41 pm
    Mal:

    Sorry, I didn't mean to offend. I meant to agree with Rich.

    MeriJo
    November 7, 2005 - 05:46 pm
    Scrawler:

    I don't have cable so I didn't see the program.

    However it is not unheard of to learn that Popes would make this declaration, especially, in the times of the Crusades.

    Traude S
    November 7, 2005 - 06:04 pm
    MAL, as you know, I do not have the Durant books. I brought all my old history books with me from across the ocean and do not feel in any way disadvantaged. The narration of post-Crusade time is similar in content to what RICH mentioned earlier.

    One question, if I may: Is Durant going to elaborate on the protracted power struggle between successive emperors and the popes later in "The Age of Faith" or in the next volume? Will the thorny issue of investiture be eventually addressed? It was an issue until the time of Austrian Empress Maria Theresa.

    RICH, a brief note regarding Gaugin's painting and its title : Somerset Maugham's "The Moon and Sixpence", a fictional treatment of the life of Gaugin, was discussed a few months ago in B&L. The painting is vividly described in it.

    Traude S
    November 7, 2005 - 06:17 pm
    The program was scheduled to be aired on the history channel in two parts, Sunday and Monday. To my keen disappointment it was NOT shown in the Boston area yesterday as scheduled. Nor was there a prior announcement of a change in the schedule.
    Where can one complain in such an instance - or can one?

    Undaunted, I will check again tonight.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 7, 2005 - 06:20 pm
    "Possibly some of the Crusaders had learned in the East a new tolerance for sexual perversions.

    "This, and the reintroduction of public baths and private latrines in the West may be included among the results of the Crusades. Probably through contact with the Moslem East, the Europeans returned to the old Roman custom of shaving the beard. A thousand Arabic words now came into the European languages. Oriental romances flowed into Europe and found new dress in the nascent vernaculars.

    "Crusaders impressed by the enameled glass of the Saracens may have brought from the East the technical secrets that led to the improved stained glass of the developed Gothic cathedrals. The compass, gunpowder, and printing were known in the East before the Crusades ended and may have come to Europe in the backwash of that tidal wave.

    "Apparently the Crusaders were too unlettered to care for 'Ababic' poetry, science or philosophy. Moslem influences in such fields came rather through Spain and Sicily than through the contacts of these wars. Greek cultural influences were felt by the West after the capture of Constantinople.

    "So William of Moerbeke, Flemish Archbishop of Corinth, furnished Thomas Aquinas with translations of Aristotle made directly from the original. In general the discovery, by the Crusders, that the followers of another faith could be as civilized, humane, and trustworthy as themselves, if not more so, must have set some minds adrift and contributed to the weakening of orthodox belief in the thirteenth and forteenth centuries.<P"Historians like William, Archbishop of Tyre, spoke of Moslem civilization with a respect, sometimes with an admiration, that would have shocked the rude warriors of the First Crusade."

    How terrible and disgusting the unknown person on the other side of the street is until we happen to meet and talk with him personally.

    Robby

    kiwi lady
    November 7, 2005 - 07:11 pm
    Tee Hee Robby! How right you are. I believe we have good relations between the faiths here because of the strong interfaith council we have. In any meaningful public ceremony for instance there are representatives from all the faiths who will each pray at the ceremony. Its quite a long list of prayers but I am sure everyone feels included in the day.

    Justin
    November 8, 2005 - 12:19 am
    Traude: We lightly covered the Investiture Crisis a few weeks back. It was significant in deciding the make up of the first Crusade. Urban was unable to get help from the German emperor and thus was forced to rely upon the nobles of Europe for support. Sorry you missed it.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 8, 2005 - 05:11 am
    CLASS! CLASS! CLASS! In every single culture we have examined over the past four years since we began with the Sumerians, the topic of class and class differences and class disturbances and class wars has come up. THIS ARTICLE gives us the details of the class differences now going on in France.

    Any difference between what is happening there and what was happening thousands of years ago?

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 8, 2005 - 06:41 am

    My first thought about this crisis was: We are never far away from being Barbarians.

    As far as class is concerned, I'll take the risk of saying that privileged people rarely know what's going on in the classes beneath them. I know I wouldn't have had a real clue if I didn't have strong memories of how poor my mother was during the Depression and how rebellious she sometimes felt. Later on when I had more comforts in my life than anybody needs, I was reminded of my "blindness of privilege", which had misled me about people and their lot, when I joined a 12 step program and found myself rubbing elbows with people who knew nothing else except scrounging for what little they have. Now I have a downturn again and am dependent on the off and on whims of generosity and the charity of others. It's not a pleasant place to be.

    There can be furious resentment of the rich. When you're hungry, you're weak, and it's hard to fight back. Youths have the physical strength and the emotional drive to fight, whether the fight is rational or not. There's power in numbers and the massed strength of the mob. This attack on the symbols of wealth, like automobiles, seems quite normal to me.

    As I said before, removing the scales from your eyes will reveal a lot of things about what's going on now and what has happened like it before in history.

    Mal

    Rich7
    November 8, 2005 - 11:07 am
    I don't think I was with you folks when the Investiture issue was discussed (or I just wasn't paying attention), so I looked for a "Cliffs Notes" type summary of the issue to get up to speed.

    The following was helpful for me.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investiture_Controversy

    Rich

    Scrawler
    November 8, 2005 - 11:16 am
    According to my local TV guide here in Portland, Oregon, the history channel will re-show both episodes of "The Cresent and the Cross" on Saturday night. I believe the program starts at 8:00 P.M. Perhaps it will be shown in the Boston area as well.

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    November 8, 2005 - 11:56 am
    Mal, how perfectly right your are. I was there too in the slums of Montreal, it lasted 7 years. We moved every year, were it not for our mother I wouldn't be where I am today, of that I am sure, even if at the time I resented her need to constantly watch us every minute of the day. We were fasting often but we were safe and we all emerged unscathed from our dismal past.

    kiwi lady
    November 8, 2005 - 02:55 pm
    I think a lot of the dissension in the world today is bred of poverty and a sense of being excluded from main stream society. Poverty breeds corruption and crime.

    It is true that although we started off as a young married couple with not a penny to rub together by the time Rod got sick we had a pretty comfortable lifestyle. It has been a shock to me to have to watch all my pennies now 10yrs after his death. However I have got used to it and in fact I get quite a sense of achievement at making ends meet. It is true that the affluent do not have a clue how the other half lives. I see this in two families of my own grandchildren who do not realise that not every kid has a huge room full of toys. Not every kid has a parent with a boat as big as a small house. Not every kid has an overseas holiday at least once a year.

    When they are a little older I shall teach them about how others live. I will hopefully instill a spirit of generosity and caring in their small souls. I am afraid their parents have also no idea how others live they have got so used to having so much. I do have one small hope in my two little grandaughters they have been brought up to know the world is not a kind place to some children.

    Fifi le Beau
    November 8, 2005 - 03:29 pm
    The evidence 'against' this being about class difference, class disturbances, or class war is laid out in the article.

    Initial unrest was not unusual as an average of more than 80 cars a day were set on fire this year even before the recent violence began. So the two youths who ran into an electric sub station to hide and electrocuted themselves did not start the wave of arson.

    With burning eighty cars a day, within a years time they were destroying around 30,000 a year. But in two nights they burned 1,167 cars and buses according to the article. They also shot and wounded firemen and police who came to put out the fires. Is arson a class thing? I don't think so.

    A fire was set in the trash receptacle at an apartment building. Jean Jacques le Chenadec aged sixty one and his neighbor Jean Pierre Moreau went to put it out and were beaten by a gang of youths. Mr. Chenadec died and Mr. Moreau was hospitalized.

    First this is a crime against the elderly. They are easier to prey on than twenty or thirty year olds. Second murder is a crime in every country. No country known to me asks what your class is when you are charged with murder and assault to commit murder, you could be from Mars or Pluto and it would not matter. Is murder a class thing, I don't think so.

    What is the purpose of 15 year olds burning cars, they can't drive even if they had one. Burning cars do however attract the police and fire departments and while the police are busy other things are happening like break ins, theft, rape, and everyday criminal behavior. Are these criminal acts the result of class, I don't think so.

    What is happening in France right now with attacks in 274 towns yesterday, is organized anarchy. The inflammatory messages by the muslims on the internet is part of a larger effort by the muslim organization.

    The fact that small groups begin the days arson with teenagers, and with night fall comes the larger groups who attack police, fire fighters, and French citizens, shows organization. Are organizations that break the laws a class thing, I don't think so.

    The biggest criminal organizations known to me are made up of some of the wealthiest people in the world. These wealthy people consider themselves the top of the class, but in my opinion the fifteen year old burning Paris has more class. They're both still criminals though.

    Last but not least, these arsons and attacks are not in the wealthier sections at all, most are in neighborhoods much like their own, where they killed Mr. Chenadec and assaulted Mr. Moreau. When they go after Lazard Ferres and other bankers who actually run the country and the politicians, then I might change my mind. As someone once said, "The easiest way to rob a bank is to buy one."

    The acts being committed by this group are crimes. That makes them criminals. They attack those within or near their own class, so that means class has nothing to do with their activity. When they torch Lazard Ferres and the Rothschilds and a few other controllers then I might consider their argument.

    The main problem these teenagers have is they don't know who the real enemy is, they are angry, and anger knows no class.

    Fifi

    Traude S
    November 8, 2005 - 04:07 pm
    FIFI, thank you for your post. Since ROBBY brought up class again, I'd like to answer, too.
    I believe the current turbulence in France is due not just to class differences or the poor versus the rich.

    The other European countries who had vast numbers of immigrants coming in since the fifties, many of them Muslims for whom the Germans e.g. built mosques, have reason to be concerned. However, the overriding question is, I believe, how well did the guest country integrate the immigrants?

    Clearly, France did not do a good job with the Algerians and Maroccons , all French citizens ! From all appearances, there was no concentrated, dedicated integration; the people were lumped together and put in housing developments, ghettoes in fact, outside the cities, hotbeds of trouble..

    Is it any wonder that the lid blew off this kettle of discontent -- with unemployment figures soaring and integration UNaccomplished ?

    To repeat with due respect, I believe this crisis is not only a question of class.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 8, 2005 - 05:06 pm
    I have come to the conclusion partly from my reading and experiences over a lifetime, partly from what I have learned in SofC, and partly from my experiences with my patients that emotion almost always supercedes intellect. As Mal says, we are not that far from being barbaric.

    It is true that the rioters end up destroying their own houses, cars, and their own possessions. But in the heat of emotion don't people lose all logical thinking and just lash out in fury at whatever is closest to them? Is this not the same as what happened in Rochester, Watts, and other places in the sixties? What else does the lower class have but their own feelings? Looking back on our readings I seem to recall similar uprisings in the Roman Empire. And if I recall correctly, the upper class always put them down. This then followed with the upper class promising that they would bring care and compassion to the lower classes -- but it never happened.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 8, 2005 - 05:12 pm
    Here is the CLASS THEORY by Marx.

    Robby

    Fifi le Beau
    November 8, 2005 - 06:13 pm
    We have heard from Mal in the USA, Carolyn in New Zealand, and Eloise in Canada who have said they all had poverty to touch them is some way. Yet none of them it is safe to assume went out and set their neighbors business or cars on fire.

    Everyone seems to assume that money and material possessions denotes class. I know that I will probably be in the minority but nothing seems further from the truth than that supposition.

    No matter how poor Mal, Carolyn, or Eloise were or are they are all three a class act. Some of the poorest people I have ever known have had class to spare. Some of the wealthiest people I have met have no class at all. Many are beneath contempt, and yet some have real class with no pretensions.

    So wealth or the lack thereof has no relevance to class. The 'royalty' of the world especially in England came up with the idea of putting people in classes to separate the 'royals' from the rich, and the rich from the next 'class' and etc. England still has a class based society because of these laws.

    I had the misfortune to be asked to oversee a visit of Princess Margaret who was staying at my employers home while they were abroad. I stayed in the house for four days while she was there.

    She came with a lady in waiting, a dresser, a private secretary, a Scotland Yard body guard, and a slew of U.S. marshalls. We put the men in a separate guest house, and the women in the main residence. I slept down the hall from the princess and lady in waiting. They didn't get wound up until nine or ten at night so I didn't get much rest.

    P Margaret drank Famous Grouse, smoked L&M cigarettes, loved country music, traveled under the name Kennedy, no air conditioning, all windows open, no television, and even though we took several newspapers to her she never opened one. She swam everyday and removed her bathing suit at the pool when she got out, with her lady in waiting holding a towel in front of her, and all the men on the side lines.

    She wanted the music loud and I was thankful to have a control in each room or no one could have heard it thunder. I came back from an errand and the staff had the music cranked up (at her request) and Dolly Parton was singing, "Why'd you come in here looking like that". She wanted to meet Billy Ray Cyrus, but he was on tour so we got his office to send over T shirts, CD's, pictures, etc.

    She came toddling down the hall one morning looking for her lady in waiting. I told her she was down at the guest house with the men. She asked if she could call her there. I said, "sure", and told her to pick up the phone and dial 21. I'm sure she expected me to do it for her but I didn't. I told her to speak into the phone and everyone in the room would hear her, then ask, "How long has this been going on". She not only got it, she did it, and everyone laughed.

    She was not dressed but still in her little cotton housecoat that came to the knees. It was her house shoes that floored me. They were blue mules with a big wedge, exactly like those sold at K-Mart by the gross. Later when they wanted to go shopping, I told the driver to drop them off at K Mart as they would look right at home.

    She is short so I suppose that is why all her shoes had that wedge even though they were far from stylish.

    The U.S. marshals drank every drop of alcohol in the guest house. They ate every meal and were constantly calling for more snacks. They got the television messed up and I had to go down at 8PM to find the ballgame on television they wanted to watch.

    Lord Napier her personal secretary said when he saw me with my camera there would be no pictures. I asked P Margaret and she said yes, so I did pictures with the staff, U.S. Marshals, her staff including Lord Napier with a drink in his hand which was his usual position after noon.

    Her dresser was a sweet little girl from the midlands of England and we took her out to dinner and she told us tales from Kensington Palace. I had Christmas cards from her for some years, but after P Margaret died they stopped. The Scotland Yard body guard was a rotund jolly fellow who kept us all laughing.

    I never think of P Margaret as a princess, but every time I go to K Mart and see that bin of blue wedgie houseshoes I think of her. She and her dresser were alike in looks and mannerisms, though one purported to be a princess and the other a simple working girl. Had I not known the difference I could have easily picked the dresser as the princess.

    Fifi

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 8, 2005 - 06:31 pm
    As Fifi states (or implies), class as discussed by Durant meant money differences. Perhaps Marx meant the same.

    How do you people define class?

    Robby

    Fifi le Beau
    November 8, 2005 - 06:48 pm
    Traude, we were posting at the same time and I agree with what you said in your post. It is complicated. but society cannot exist without laws and their enforcement. Else, we would soon be back in the dark ages.

    I watched a video clip of the neighborhood where some of these young men lived. A reporter with a camera crew drove through and the apartments looked well built, the school looked better than anything I ever attended. The young men interviewed looked well fed and well dressed, they were provided housing and schooling, and no one worked. It seems to me France has not deserted them and is providing for them even in bad economic times.

    Fifi

    kiwi lady
    November 8, 2005 - 08:35 pm
    Fifi according our correspondent in France ( Radio NZ) the area where the problems are are known as the slums of Paris. Our correspondent is resident in Paris.

    I agree wholeheartedly with Robby. I was dirt poor as a kid because my father was a huge gambler and drinker. He spent his huge pay checks on himself and gave my mum a pittance to bring us up. I lived in an affluent area however, near about six beautiful beaches. I was not deprived of food for the soul like beautiful views. Perhaps its the school I went to and the fact that I had my very respectable grandparents to lean on that I was not angry that I did not have the things that all the other kids at my school had. I went to the school that is still regarded as the best State High school in the country. I had excellent teachers. I was fortunate in that way.

    I do however understand the anger of the ghetto poor.

    Carolyn

    Fifi le Beau
    November 8, 2005 - 09:00 pm
    Carolyn, I have no idea where the video clip was made as there were 274 towns and cities attacked according to the New York Times, all over France. The clip had already started when I came into the room, so I didn't hear the location where they were.

    The news this morning had a map of France with all the attacks highlighted. It looked as though the entire country was afire. The attacks are not only in Paris, and the press is beginning to show just how wide spread the riots are.

    Fifi

    kiwi lady
    November 8, 2005 - 09:42 pm
    The riots started in the immigrant slums of Paris. I suspect the original reason has been overtaken by resentment because of the racial bias of the French. Even if you have a degree you are unlikely to get an interview for any job you apply for because you are Middle Eastern or African. I heard an interview by a Professor on Radio NZ yesterday. The underlying reason for the spread of the rioting is the resentment about racism but it originally began in the slums because of the way the Police treated the inhabitants of this area in Paris. The French are very racially biased according to many opinions I heard over the past few days from ex pats from different countries all of whom are resident in France.

    Even second generation immigrants are discriminated against in the job market. Those people speak perfect French and are to all intensive purposes French.

    Carolyn

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 8, 2005 - 10:48 pm
    I am aware that we have temporarily gone off the topic of the Crusades but because Durant has made so much of "class differences" throughout his volumes, I could not ignore the CURRENT NEWS.

    Robby

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    November 8, 2005 - 10:51 pm
    Right Carolyn, the French, generally attach a lot of importance to not only origins, but also to social standing. A fortune is equivalent to a title and people tend to stick with their own kind. Aristocracy has deep roots that is not yet erased in spite of the French revolution. I went to France every year for 10 years up to 5 years ago and stayed with French people.

    The French Republic is trying to be a Democracy, but it a far cry from the American Democracy. Jacques Chirac and Dominique de Villepin both offer lip service when they claim that immigrants of the first or of any generation are integrated to French society, they are not and will not be until intermarriage produces a raceless race, if that is possible.

    I don't think this problem will last much longer. They will pass a curfew law I guess to keep the younger teenagers at home where they belong and continue looking down on people who don't have the same genes.

    I still love France anyway, it is like loving a beautiful but naughty child.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 8, 2005 - 10:52 pm
    Here is a NY Times EDITORIAL on the subject.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 8, 2005 - 10:57 pm
    And ANOTHER EDITORIAL.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 8, 2005 - 11:10 pm
    Am I stretching it or is this a CLASS THING?

    Robby

    kiwi lady
    November 8, 2005 - 11:18 pm
    We are told that in 50 years our population will be 40% Asian. I am not sure how I feel about that. As Asians rarely marry out of their race I see a polarised society in 50yrs. In our present society there has been much intermarriage with our indigenous people. There are not many people who do not have an idigenous relative or in fact indigenous blood themselves. We have our problems but in general we have developed a blended culture. We use many Maori words as part of our every day vocabulary. I want to keep our culture. Asians keep their culture in their homelands and do not encourage white immigration in a lot of cases. There are several Asian countries where you are not allowed to buy land if you are a foreigner. Is it wrong to want to keep our blended culture as it is when the Asian countries want very much to keep their culture in their homelands very pure.

    I do however believe that people who immigrate here should know the culture of their homeland but at the same time if they want the privilege of citizenship in our country they should at the same time take the opportunities that are available here to assimilate into the community. I believe it is a mistake for these immigrants to all buy in the same areas it causes more alienation and increases racial bias. Most of our Asian immigrants are wealthy. There is one area Howick where there are so many Chinese immigrants that the suburb is called Chowick by many.

    I think a mixed neighbourhood helps to foster race relations. It is very mixed where I live and everyone gets on well. I think however people tell lies if they say they have no bias at all. I have a bias in that I do not wish to lose the unique culture we have here. As I said before is this wrong? We are made sometimes to feel that it is.

    mabel1015j
    November 8, 2005 - 11:54 pm
    I have read reviews of "Talk to the Hand" written by the woman who wrote "Eat Shoots and Leaves" and apparently she is discussing the rudeness in today's society. I disagree w/ the parents in the NYT article that "children are just being children" and we can't do anything about it. That's how those parents end up w/ those obnoxious children on the "Supernanny" show on tv and the Nannys can show them that children need to be taught how to behave and CAN behave if made too.

    Unfortunately, there are a lot of young parents who think we have to let children be children. I guess that grew out of our 60's revolt against the 50's parents who were so into conforming to convention. And i think it's one of reasons we have people talking on cell phones EVERYWHERE letting us all listen to conversations that we don't want to hear. I have been known to gently suggest to people in public that "not all of us want to hear your personal conversations." I am one of those sort of rebels who grew up in the 50's, but my kids behaved properly in public. I guess i rebelled against the institutional conventions of the time, but it was all based on being considerate of other people and their feelings and their rights - that didn't include my children, if they were misbehaving.

    Having said that, I think we would be much more appalled at behavior if we were transported back to the MIddle AGes. Everything i have read in social histories of the time has taught me that people were ruder, more violent, dirtier - in all ways, including language, upper classes acted more entitled and more demeaning to those "below" them than we see today, and we probably would want to hurry back to the 21st century....altho' Cherry Hill and Moorestown, NJ have some people living in them who think they are very "entitled" .....

    Another TV note: Sunday night PBS is doing a Masterpiece Theatre presentation "The Virgin Queen." Another 2-parter, about Eliz I.....jean

    Bubble
    November 9, 2005 - 03:17 am
    We were children too, and we were never behaving like that. Were we deprived children?

    Society has become too permissible and it is not a case of class or money. Underneath is the fact people are getting more egotistical and thinking only of their own pleasure. The attitude is: Who cares if the neighbors are suffering from the noise or the behavior of our little angels, as long as we can enjoy the outing or forget the chores.

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 9, 2005 - 06:13 am

    SeniorNet volunteer, JOAN GRIMES, was recently injured while standing in a checkout line at an Alabama supermarket. An unruly child ran into her and knocked her down. She landed on her face, and the cut on her lip required stitches. She also was bruised in several places by this unmannered and undisciplined child who kept going and never said a word.

    Permissiveness by parents. who seem to be scared to death that they'll be accused of child abuse, is running rampant in the U.S. today. Without discipline, how will these children ever learn that some control and authority are good for them? That respect for other people is an important thing to have if they are to get along in this world?

    Mal

    Bubble
    November 9, 2005 - 06:22 am
    Writing was important for civilization.

    Here is about the deiscovery of the oldest (?) hebrew alphabet:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/09/international/middleeast/09alphabet.html?th&emc=th

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 9, 2005 - 06:26 am
    "I can't change the situation in Iraq, I can't change the situation in New Orleans, But I can change this little corner of the world."

    There's something I'd like to change, and I need help doing it. There have been diagnosed cases of POLIOMYELITIS in an Amish community in Minnesota recently. Some Amish believe that vaccinations hurt the immune system. Though the Amish are scrupulously clean, outhouses they use have been found to hold polio viruses.

    Do you know that shivers ran down my back when I found out about this, or how much I cringed when I read about this outbreak of polio? Those of us who are polio survivors will tell you that it is a terrible, horrible disease which, if it doesn't kill you can damage you for life and affect every single thing you do.

    There's evidence that people have relaxed about this disease to the point of not being vaccinated. There were no vaccines when I had polio in 1935. No, there were epidemics, and I am the result of one.

    We worry about bird flu. Polio can be an even worse scourge. If you know of anyone who has not received the polio vaccine, urge him or her to get it. There are people who are not even aware that polio vaccines exist. Educate them. DO SOMETHING TO CHANGE YOUR LITTLE CORNER OF THE WORLD.

    Mal

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 9, 2005 - 06:32 am
    "The power and prestige of the Roman Church were immensely enhanced by the First Crusade and progressively damaged by the rest.

    "The sight of diverse peoples, of lordly barons and proud knights, sometimes of emperors and kings, uniting in a religious cause led by the Church raised the status of the papacy.

    "Papal legates entered every country and diocese to stir recruiting and gather funds for the Crusades. Their authority encroached upon, often superseded, that of the hierarchy. Through them the faithful became almost directly tributory to the pope.

    "The collections so made became customary and were soon applied to many purposes besides the Crusades. The pope acquired, to the active dissatisfction of the kings, the power to tax their subjects and divert to Rome great sums that might have gone to royal coffers or local needs.

    "The distribution of indulgences for forty days' service in Palestine was a legitimate application of military service. The granting of similar indulgences to those who paid the expenses of a Crusader seemed forgivable. The extension of like indulgences to those who contributed to funds managed by the popes, or who fought papal wars in Europe aginst Frederick, Manfred, or Conrad, became an added source of irritation to the kings and of humor to the satirists.

    "In 1241 Gregory IX directed his legate in Hungary to commute for a money payment the vows of persons pledged to a crusade and used the proceeds to help finance his life-and-death struggle with Frederick II. Provencal troubadours criticized the Church for diverting aid from Palestine by offering equal indulgences for a crusade against the Albigensian heretics in France.

    "Says Matthew Paris:-'The faithful wondered that the same plenary remission of sins was promised for shedding Christian as for shedding infidel blood.' Many landowners, to finance their crusade, sold or mortgaged their property to churches or monasteries to raise liquid funds. Some monasteries in this way acquired vast estates.

    "When the failure of the Crusades lowered the prestige of the Church, her wealth became a ready target of royal envy, popular resentment, and critical rebuke. Some attributed the disasters of Louis IX in 1250 to the simultaneous campaign of Innocent IV against Frederick II. Emboldened skeptics argued that the failure of the Crusades refuted the claims of the pope to be God's vicar or representative on earth.

    "When, after 1250, monks solicited funds for further crusades, some of their hearers, in humor or bitterness, summoned beggars and gave them alms in the name of Mohammed. Mohammed, they said, had shown himself stronger than Christ."

    Your comments, please?

    Robby

    Rich7
    November 9, 2005 - 07:29 am
    Fifi, Nice "first person" story about Princess Margaret. You never know what you are going to learn in S of C.

    Durant quotes Matthew Paris, a new name for me. Looked him up and he turns out to be a monk at St. Albans monastery during medieval times. He interviewed pilgrims, rich and poor, who passed through the abbey, giving later historians a "man in the street" perspective on events at the time.

    He was also an artist. This link tells more about Matthew Paris. It also includes a rather bloody illustration of his, depicting the execution of St Albans.

    http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/NORparis.htm

    Rich

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 9, 2005 - 07:46 am

    Has this kind of thing accompanied the downfall of civilizations?

    " ''The important thing to understand about Mr. (Philip) Rieff's work is his belief that the new therapeutic culture — perhaps unlike any previous culture — lacks the capacity to regulate its own excesses' .

    "Mr. Rieff acknowledges that what he calls the 'permissive' or 'trangressive' impulse in American culture peaked quite a while ago, around 1970. 'The Norman O. Brown argument — that's over,' he says, alluding to the philosopher who advocated the liberation of Eros.

    "But he adds — and this is one of the major themes of the new book — that the culture has been adrift ever since, unable to recapture an 'interdictory' character. 'People keep saying that new rules are being established,' he says. 'But I never quite see them. Where are these new rules? Tell me what they are.' "

    Source:

    Prophet of the Anti-Culture

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 9, 2005 - 07:49 am

    A pope for our times.

    Fifi le Beau
    November 9, 2005 - 10:11 am
    Thanks Mal for that article about the Pope on how the Roman Catholic Church plans on dealing with the theory of 'Intelligent design' and the Americans who are promoting that idea.

    Yesterday's elections in the USA on 'Intelligent design' theory on local school boards had mixed results. In Penn. the entire school board who put 'Intelligent design' on the social studies agenda was thrown out to the last man, and a new board elected.

    But in Kansas they have succeeded in putting it back on the schools Social Science agenda.

    What's the matter with Kansas?

    Fifi

    Scrawler
    November 9, 2005 - 11:14 am
    I've been in both worlds. I was born into wealth, but my father although he always kept a roof over our heads and clothes on our backs made us work for everything else. Education was very high in my house and I would go to school and than work for my uncle sometimes into the wee hours of the night. When I got old enough I married, as my mother would say "beneath my station" but I loved the man and although everything she said about him came true (I hate it when parents are right) and we had a topsy turvy marriage especially after Vietnam. Now I pinch pennies, but I feel I learned from both worlds and that it has made me the person I am today.

    Fifi le Beau
    November 9, 2005 - 11:22 am
    Mal, your post on the Amish and polio immediately brought to mind an article in the Sunday New York Times magazine on the Amish and their search for help for their many disabled children.

    The doctor who is treating these children born with terrible disabilities did mention polio in the article.

    The Amish and Mennonite paradox

    Fifi

    Sunknow
    November 9, 2005 - 01:12 pm
    Back to Joan Grimes episode in the Supermarket. I understand completely.

    With my little Oxygen bottle on my shoulder, and unable to walk long distances, I cannot shop without the carts provided in the Supermarkets. I often find children playing with them, racing in the store.

    On one occasion, having less patience than usual, I informed a little boy about 10 years old that I found playing on them, that the carts were provided for people that could not shop without them, and they were NOT toys. No store employee was in site.

    The boy wasn't impressed or interested at all in what I had to say, and made a few wild circles around me in the cart.

    Next, I sternly told him that I NEEDED the cart to shop. He continued, but his driving wasn't too good, and he got himself cornered and had to back up.

    I put my hand on the handlebar, and ordered him in a rather loud, clear voice to "Get Out Of That Cart. NOW." He leaned way back and looked around to see if anyone was going to rescue him, then decided the game was over, and got out of the cart.

    I thanked him very much, put my little oxygen case in the cart and drove away. After I made a full circle on one aisle, he was still standing near the same spot, just looking at me. Standing close by was a woman I assume was his mother, and his little sister, about 7 or 8. She was riding around ..... in another cart. Mother didn't seem to notice or care. There was a little old man sitting on the bench by the door. Waiting for a cart?

    How many children can you educate in one trip to the store? But then it's not the children that need educating, is it?

    Sun

    Fifi le Beau
    November 9, 2005 - 02:44 pm
    Rich, thank you for commenting on my vignette of PM.

    Durant uses Matthew Paris throughout the book from this time onward, and he along with two Frenchmen of the era provide us with a first hand knowledge of the events of their time.

    I have read excerpts from these works, but would like to read them in their entirety.

    Fifi

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 9, 2005 - 05:13 pm
    Any comments about Durant's remarks in Post 672?

    Robby

    MeriJo
    November 9, 2005 - 05:20 pm
    What a rich group of links from Robby, Fifi, Rich7, Mal and Bubble - I have spent quite awhile reading all the posts and these links. Thank you very much for your links and excerpts.

    Fifi: I was pleased to read of the advances Dr. Morton has made in studying the generic diseases among the Mennonites and Amish. I had read about this some time ago, but then I saw nothing more. Thanks so much for posting it.

    kiwi lady
    November 9, 2005 - 06:34 pm
    We have been having a series on genetics on Public Radio here. Its just so fascinating. Robby you would be interested in the way genes can shape our beliefs even if we were brought up by people who were genetically unrelated to us. Research shows that children brought up by parents not related to them can form an entirely different belief system from their adoptive parents. Then when there are identical twins brought up by two different families they have been found to hold belief systems that are the same, with the adoptive parents often holding totally different belief systems. Its just so fascinating. I have been riveted to the discussions.

    Carolyn

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    November 9, 2005 - 07:07 pm
    I have my doubts about identical twins theories. Sometimes scientific studies try to prove something without enough samples, for instance, how many identical twins are separated at birth and brought up far from each other by people totally different in every respect, I would say very very few.

    I have identical twins and they have different belief systems from each other and not only that, but from my husband and me. I don't always believe what science is trying to make law from speculation. Theories are not absolute truths as so many people tend to believe only because of the string of letters after their name.

    Éloïse

    Sunknow
    November 9, 2005 - 10:23 pm
    I taped both parts of The History Channel's "The Cresent and the Cross" and watched them together. A bit long that way, but it was an excellent series. It sent me back to the book looking for certain names, and events. I thought it was very well done, and some of the photography was breathtaking.

    Back to post #672.

    A stand-out paragraph for me was:

    "The collections so made became customary and were soon applied to many purposes besides the Crusades. The pope acquired, to the active dissatisfaction of the kings, the power to tax their subjects and divert to Rome great sums that might have gone to royal coffers or local needs ......

    It must be a custom that has been passed down through the ages. Not only Popes, and Kings, but Churches, Organizations, Non-profits, and Governments in general. Yes, sometimes the money goes to the local need, but more often than not, I think it goes to someone's "royal" coffer.

    Sun

    Justin
    November 9, 2005 - 11:00 pm
    The Investiture Crisis comes back to us whether we like it or not. Measures taken by the Popes and the Vatican to fund the Crusades were in place for two hundred years and established the right of the Vatican to tap the pocketbooks of the lay community. These monies might well have gone to royalty and the kings and emperors of Europe were displeased that the Papacy thought it a right to tax the subjects of secular courts. The practice extended the conflict launched by secular investment of bishops to include taxation rights.

    Justin
    November 9, 2005 - 11:11 pm
    Reward for service in the Crusades included an indulgence which remits temporal punishment following absolution. Forty days service was required to gain an indulgence and it mattered not at all whether one killed an infidel or a christian the reward was the same. Later, the Vatican found it profitable to sell indulgences to all who requested the benefit. Grades of indulgence were created and I suspect, using good marketing techniques, the Vatican increased the need for such benefits.

    Justin
    November 9, 2005 - 11:22 pm
    The failure of the Crusades to achieve their holy purpose inspired many to question the connection between God and the Pope. Was this fellow really God's emissary and if he was God's emissary why did God lose this fight to allow pilgrims to worship him at the holy sites. Something was wrong here. If God willed the Crusades why did they lose. He is all powerful. Is he not? He wanted to win but he lost. Was Allah a stronger god than God? Being Pope in those days was not easy.

    Justin
    November 9, 2005 - 11:42 pm
    Jesus, as a practicing Jew, reacted against what he saw as impurity in Temple sacrifice and as well in the excess of total immersion by John the Baptist to gain remission of sin. He favored a spirtual form of cleansing over sacrifice and over immersion to gain remission of sin. Contrast this revolutionary idea that Jesus puts forth with the Papal practice of rewarding military service with indulgence. One should be amazed how far these Medieval Christians have come from the teaching of their hero.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 10, 2005 - 05:01 am
    "Trade followed the cross and perhaps the cross was guided by trade.

    "The knights lost Palestine but the Italian merchant fleets won control of the Mediterranean not only from Islam but from Byzantium as well. Venice, Genoa, Pisa, Amalfi, Marseille, Barcelona had already traded with the Moslem East, the Bosporus, and the Black Sea but this traffic was immensely enlarged by the Crusades.

    "The Venetian conquest of Constantinople -- the transport of pilgrims and warriors to Palestine -- the purveyance of supplies to Christians and others in the East -- the importation of Oriental products into Europe -- all these supported a degree of commerce and maritime transport unknown since the most flourishing days of Imperial Rome.

    "Silks, sugar, spices -- pepper, ginger, cloves, cinnamon -- rare luxuries in eleventh-century Europe -- came to it now in delightful abundance. Plants, crops, and trees already known to Europe from Moslem Spain were now more widely transplanted from Orient to Occident -- maize, rice, sesame, carob, lemons, melons, peaches, apricots, cherries, dates, shallot and scallion were named from the port, Ascalon, that shipped them from the East to the West. Apricots were long known as 'Damascus plums.'

    "Damasks, muslins, satins, velvets, tapestries, rugs, dyes, powders, scents, and gems came from Islam to adorn or sweeten feudal and bourgeous homes and flesh. Mirrors of glass plated with metallic film now replaced those of polished bronze and steel. Europe learned fromn the East to refine sugar and made 'Venetian' glass.

    "New markets in the East developed Italian and Flemish industry and promoted the growth of towns and the middle class.

    "Better techniques of banking were introduced from Byzantium and Islam. New forms and instruments of credit appeared. More money circulated. More ideas, more men.

    "The Crusades had begun with an agricultural feudalism inspired by German barbarism crossed with religious sentiment. They ended with the rise of industry and the expansion of commerce in an economic revolution tht heralded and financed the Renaissance."

    Apparently war is wonderful for those who stay at home.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 10, 2005 - 05:42 am

    Let's all say a prayer for war so we can stay home and enjoy the bounty, okay?

    "Reading these books, one would never suspect that we are living in a moment when the people who pray the hardest - for martyrdom, purity, the defeat of the infidel - pose the greatest threat to our peace and freedom. In their insistence on making prayer happily uncontroversial, the Zaleskis and Mr. Moore both take it far less seriously than did its great antagonist, Samuel Butler, whose devastating image of prayer, from 'The Way of All Flesh,' finds no response in either of their books:

    " 'The drawing-room (wall) paper was of a pattern which consisted of bunches of red and white roses, and I saw several bees at different times fly up to these bunches and try them, under the impression that they were real flowers; having tried one bunch, they tried the next, and the next, and the next. ... As I thought of the family prayers being repeated night and morning, week by week, month by month, and year by year, I could not help thinking how like it was to the way in which the bees went up the wall and down the wall, bunch by bunch, without ever suspecting that so many of the associated ideas could be present, and yet the main idea be wanting hopelessly, and for ever.' "

    Read the article in the New York Sun:

    The Folly of Prayer for Prayer's Sake

    Rich7
    November 10, 2005 - 07:25 am
    Mal, I like the analogy about the bees and the artificial flowers, and praying to a God who may not exist.

    A person who takes a different perspective on prayer is cardiologist Dr. Herbert Benson of the Harvard Medical School, and author of "The Relaxation Response" and "Beyond the Relaxation Response" (He might have written other books but those are the two that I have read and am familiar with.)

    His thesis is that mankind is "hard wired" for prayer, whether there is a God or not. He visited and studied cultures all over the world, even remote Tibetans, and found that one thing that all these very diverse cultures have in common is the need to pray.

    As a doctor, he felt that moments of personal prayer (to whatever God or image) were beneficial for the mind, body and spirit because it actually is a form of meditation, and he (and others) have proven that meditation is a very healthy, and even healing thing.

    (Of course, once you take those calming, meditative thoughts out of your own mind and insist your neighbor think those same thoughts or pray to your same deity, then you have food for another Crusade.)

    This link is to a PBS interview with Dr. Benson.

    http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/religion/healing_prayer_5-21.html

    Rich

    kiwi lady
    November 10, 2005 - 11:24 am
    Robby its interesting to note that oft times those who take us to war do not send their children to war. Yes life is good for them in war time. They seem to prosper. Look at the oil company profits for instance.

    Imagine a world without spices! I cannot imagine it. It was from the East that we got the capacity to put beautiful colours in our fabrics. Such richness added to our lives.

    mabel1015j
    November 10, 2005 - 12:32 pm
    but we have had many, many benefits to society come out of war or preparation for wars. What could we put in place of war that would motivate people to research, investigate, invest in and invent progressive items in society? We can't just say money (capitalism), or pride, because those like religion have caused as many conflicts as they have provided benefit. Everything i can think of as a motivator has been taken to the extreme and become a"reason" for war.......

    Just to delineate that first sentence - and i'm sure you can all add many more things to the list - just in the 20th century we have military research to thank for: blood plasma, anti-biotics, the internet, research and understanding about AIDS, atomic energy, plastics, gps systems, space travel and all we've learned from that, including TANG , etc. etc. Don't bother telling me that other people other than military and gov'ts were working on any of those issues.....i know, most inventions are being worked on by many entities, but for most of these the BIG push and the BIG MONEY came from war departments.....jean

    kiwi lady
    November 10, 2005 - 01:22 pm
    I can assure those of you that the ground breaking research we have done here in NZ in the medical field were never funded by the Defence Dept here. Most of the research money here comes from overseas Corporations. There is an cost to getting this money, like if we do not agree with the foreign policy of certain nations on some issues the funding can be withdrawn, its very subtle the way they do this. Its never said in so many words the reasons for fund withdrawal but the inference is there.

    I seem to remember the Pentagon however having something to do with final development of software that they wanted for some reason. I don't think anything Defence departments pay researchers for is done in the spirit of benevolence although often the product of the research is able to be used in the wider community.

    Justin
    November 10, 2005 - 02:06 pm
    An Arabic treatise written in 1187 describes a counterweight artillery machine. It is called a trebuchet in French.The machine throws a 300 pound stone about 300 yards. It was very useful during periods of siege. Recognition of the power of weight driven machines led to an improvement in clocks. Water clocks were limited to mild weather areas and sand clocks tended to run fast and faster as the hole enlarged over time. Counter weights in clocks turned out to be more accurate.

    mabel1015j
    November 10, 2005 - 03:28 pm
    that was marvelous, how do you find this trivia for us?.....jean

    Rich7
    November 10, 2005 - 04:17 pm
    Mabel,

    Don't believe him. He makes all this stuff up.

    The trebuchet was actually invented by Herbert Hoover in 1938.

    Now, who are you going to believe, me or him?



    Rich

    (The truth is, I never cease to be amazed at Justin's depth of knowledge in so many areas. What an incredible asset to this discussion!)

    kiwi lady
    November 10, 2005 - 04:56 pm
    I believe Justin my little grandson has a book depicting ancient inventions and how they worked complete with diagrams and pictures. Before he could read he would get it out at bedtime and I would have to read pages and pages including all the little notes on the diagrams. I dreaded bedtime!

    Carolyn

    MeriJo
    November 10, 2005 - 05:47 pm
    About indulgences of which we had had some discussion here recently:

    1. An indulgence is a mental act. It may not be held in the hand nor observed by another person.

    2. In order to obtain an indulgence a Catholic, and most Christians during the medieval times were Catholics in the West, there are certain conditions that must be met. One must attend Mass, go to Confession and receive Holy Communion, and then mentally apply in silent prayer to God for the indulgence. I imagine one could announce an application aloud if one wanted to do so, but usually it is silent and between the person and God. In that Catholics believe silent prayers are heard, this is the usual way.

    3. Popes may offer plenary indulgences for good acts only, and may not offer them for sinful acts such as murder and mayhem. In this the Popes were in error during the Crusades. In that Christianity was taught primarily by preaching because of the dominating illiteracy in the West, and in that most of the crusaders were illiterate and only a handful of the royal leaders had had much of an education, it is understandable that this error would be accepted. Their understanding of Christianity was very limited. Believing that the faith was in inmminent danger of being eliminated by the rise of Mohammedanism - which was not so - the tragic response of the Crusades can be understood.

    4. The sale of religious rituals is simony. Unscrupulous and wily clerics during the medieval period offered the sale of indulgences to those who believed they were legitimate. Unfortunately such indulgences were not worth the paper they were written on because these criminal clerics did write out the indulgence for the benefit of some illiterate people. An indulgence is never written out as it is in no way possible to know if the indulgence is ever granted. It remains a personal and mental thing.

    5. Therefore, there is no way of gathering any evidence of an indulgence being granted. Even with all the conditions fulfilled if the applicant is not of a sincere mental mode, his application is a mental effort of futility. The whole supplication is between God and the individual, and God has not been known to proclaim for the record that so-and-so received the indulgence for which he/she applied.

    I hope this explanation clears up an understanding of indulgences.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 10, 2005 - 08:45 pm
    The Economic Revolution

    1066-1300

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 10, 2005 - 09:05 pm
    Please note the change in the GREEN quotes in the Heading indicating where we are in the volume now and where we are headed.

    "Every cultural flowering finds root and nourishment in an expansion of commerce and industry.

    "Moslem seizure of eastern and southern Mediterranean ports and trade -- Moslem, Viking, and Magyar raids -- political disorder under the successors of Charlesmagne -- had driven European economic and mental life to nadir in the ninth and tenth centuries.

    "The feudal protection and reorganization of agriculture -- the taming of Norse pirates into Norman peasants and merchants -- the repulse and conversion of the Huns -- the recapture of the Mediterranean by Italian trade -- the reopening of the Levant by the Crusades -- and the awakening contact of the West with the more advanced vivilizations of Islam and Byzantium, provided in the twelfth century the opportunity and stimulus for the recovery of Europe, and supplied the material means for the cultural blossoming of the twelfth century and the medieval meridian of the thirteenth.

    "For society, as well as for an individual, primum est edere, deinde philosophari - eating must come before philosophy, wealth before art.

    "The first step in the economic revival was the removal of restraints on internal trade.

    "Shortsighted governments had levied a hundred charges upon the transport and sale of goods -- for entering ports, crossing bridges, using roads or rivers or canals, offering goods for purchase at markets or fairs. Feudal barons felt justified in exacting tolls on wares passing through their domains, as states do now.

    "Some of them gave real protection and service to mechants by armed escorts and convenient hospitality. But the result of state and feudal interference was sixty two toll stations on the Rhine, seventy-four on the Loire, thirty-five on the Elbe, seventy-four on the Loire, thirty-five on the Elbe, seventy-seven on the Danube. A merchant paid sixty per cenbt of his cargo to carry it along the Rhine.

    "Feudal wars, undisciplined soldiery, robber barons, and pirates on rivers and seas, made roads and waterways a martial risk to merchants and travelers.

    "The Truce and Peace of God helped land commerce by proclaiming relatively safe perids for travel. The growing power of the kings diminished robbery, established uniform measures and weights, limited and regulated tolls, and removed tolls altogether from certain roads and markets in the time of the great fairs."

    Were the far-sighted merchants and governments of those times thinking of "global markets?" Was there the equivalent of a World Trade Organization? Were there fights for and against tariffs? Were there equivalents of inter-national corporations? What are your thoughts?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 10, 2005 - 09:28 pm
    Whether twelfth century or 21st century, COMMUNICATION AND TRANSPORTATION seem to be the secret of the growth of trade.

    Robby

    3kings
    November 10, 2005 - 10:16 pm
    Eloise. In the matter of identical twins, and their systems of beliefs. As you say there are not many cases to study, and therefor we should rather dismiss the evidence we have, than build theories on such little evidence.

    If this was the correct behaviour in such cases, then what do you think about cosmological theories ? Relativity theory for instance? There is only one universe, so do you feel that there is insufficient evidence ( gathered from only one universe,) for Einstein to advance his radical ideas. Or Newtonian theory ( Universal Gravitation )should that be dismissed on the same ground?

    To carry your ideas further, should we be wasting our time trying to understand and to know God? I have it on the best authority, there is only one of Him.++ Trevor

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    November 10, 2005 - 10:23 pm
    "eating must come before philosophy, wealth before art." Yes for sure. When my son wanted to study music at University, I said no. He was not pleased to say the least because he loved to play the guitar but now he is happy as an Economist and he still plays the guitar.

    MeriJo, I loved your explanation of indulgences.

    I do not dismiss science, only arrogance.

    Justin
    November 10, 2005 - 11:48 pm
    Eloise: Good of you to condemn arrogance.Me too. I don't know anyone here who is arrogant. We may strive for truth now and then and occasionally be a little overbearing in it's pursuit but historical discussion encourages exposure of myth and cover-up. If it were not for Merijo we would all be thinking that an indulgence was something one could buy like an insurance policy to carry to our grave. I thought the sale of indulgences was what the Reformation and counter Reformation were all about. If indulgences were sold during the Crusades, I am sure they contributed to the Papacy's bottom line. The profits from this enterprise must have funded several crusades and other activities as well for the practice lasted till the Sixteenth Century.

    There are two ways to describe practices of this kind by an organization that purports to be above reproach. One either describes the activity in language that minimizes it's negative aspects or one describes the activity in modern language that fits and cannot be misconstrued. There should be little room in a discussion of this kind for cover-up. Fortunately, I don't know anyone in this group who does that.

    Justin
    November 11, 2005 - 12:03 am
    In the twelfth Century, money was moving around. The Papacy took it from those in Europe who had it and bought supplies and amunition for Crusaders. The Vatican funded all the trades contributing services in support of the invasions. All the Italian boatmen were paid as well as those who supplied the armies. Shipping thousands of pilgrims across the Adriatic was expensive and as in all wars there were those who serviced the warriors and those who grappled with the enemy. The Vatican was expected to pay the freight alhough many of those who served sold all they owned to pay their own way.

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 11, 2005 - 05:31 am


    "The purpose of a writer is to keep civilization from destroying itself."

    ~Albert Camus

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 11, 2005 - 05:50 am
    MERI JO has given a good description of the Catholic definition of indulgences. As JUSTIN has pointed out, not all people, in the time we're speaking of, felt that way.

    Many, many years ago I saw a play called "Luther" on Broadway with Albert Finney playing the title rôle.
    "This is an unparalleled portrait of the passionate priest - a rebel who changed and challenged, the spiritual world of his time. Play: Concerns Martin Luther, whose personal struggle with God led, inevitably, to a battle with the Church that set in motion the Protestant Reformation. This private and public epic unfolds through a series of portraits of 16th-century Europe, showing the Catholic Church in all its wisdom, corruption and glory failing to embrace one of its most astonishing sons."
    That quote is from a review of the play. In it, John Osborne, a playwright who had done some arduous and accurate study of history before writing this play, depicts the use and selling of indulgences. I was shocked, never having heard of such things before.

    Martin Luther, in the play, was shown to be a person of intense drive and belief, who from time to time fell into kinds of hypnotic and convulsive fits. It was an immensely taxing rôle, which Albert Finney played beautifully. For me seeing this play was an intensely disturbing experience, enough that thoughts of it are with me today.

    Mal

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 11, 2005 - 05:51 am
    "Fairs were the life of medieval trade.

    "Pedlars, of course, carried small wares from door to door, artisans sold their products in their shops, market days gathered sellers and buyers in the towns. Barons sheltered markets near their castles, churches allowed them in their yards, kings housed them in halles or stores in the capitals.

    "But wholesale and international trade centered in the regional fairs periodically held at London and Stourbridge in England -- at Paris, Lyons, Reims, and the Champagne in France -- at Lille, Ypres, Douai, and Bruges in Flanders -- at Cologne, Frankfort, Leipzig, and Lubeck in Germany -- at Geneva in Switzerland -- at Novgorod in Russia.

    "The most famous and popular of these fairs took place in the county of Champagne at Lagny in January, at Bar-sur-Aube in Lent, at Provins in May and September, at Troyes in September and November. Each of these six fairs lasted six or seven weeks so that in sequence they provided an international market through most of the year.

    "They were conveniently located to bring the products and merchants of France, the Lowlands, and the Rhine Valley into contact with those of Provence, Spain, Italy, Africa, and the East. Altogether they constituted a major source of French wealth and power in the twelfth century.

    "Originating as early as the fifth century in Troyes, they declined when Philip IV (1285-1314), having taken Champagne from its enlightened counts, taxed and regulated the fairs into penury.

    "In the thirteenth century they gave place to maritime commerce and ports."

    The various fairs arranged sequentially in different nations indicates to me that there was some sort of international organization which organized and maintained it. A start of multi-national corporations?

    Robby

    Bubble
    November 11, 2005 - 06:22 am
    These fairs bring to mind another association for me. The meetings of tribes long ago for trading products and artifacts,for meeting different people and looking for marrying prospects for the younger members so as to avoid intermarriage. These meetings happened around equinox time I think... dates that were easily chexked.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 11, 2005 - 06:23 am
    INTERNATIONAL TRADE is still having its problems.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 11, 2005 - 06:52 am
    Today is Veterans Day, formerly Armistice Day, in my country.

    From the editor of the Word a Day newsletter:

    "The word veteran ultimately comes from Latin veter/vetus, 'old' (which became veteranus, 'of long experience') and the word's original meaning was that of an old soldier or one who had a long history of military service. Our modern meaning in North America is any ex-serviceperson.


    "The word armistice is derived from the Latin armistitium, from arma, 'arms' and -stitium, 'stopping.' It means a temporary cessation from fighting or the use of arms, or a short truce.


    "The poppy is a small red flower that grows wild in the fields of Europe - where many of those who died in World War I are buried. Poppies have long been associated with World War I memorials through the poem, 'In Flanders Fields' by Canadian Army physician John McCrae:


    "In Flanders fields the poppies blow
    Between the crosses, row on row,
    That mark our place; and in the sky
    The larks, still bravely singing, fly
    Scarce heard amid the guns below. We are the Dead.
    Short days ago We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
    Loved, and were loved, and now we lie
    In Flanders fields.
    Take up our quarrel with the foe:
    To you from fail- ing hands we throw
    The torch; be yours to hold it high.
    If ye break faith with us who die
    We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
    In Flanders fields.


    "Flanders is the name of the whole western part of Belgium and Flanders Fields is also the name of an American war cemetery near Waregem, Belgium, where several hundred Americans are buried. Flanders was the site of heavy fight- ing during World War I and the poppy came to symbolize both the beauty of the land and the blood shed there. In several countries, like the US, paper poppies are sold to raise money for the support of veterans and are worn in the lapel as a sign of remembrance.


    "A tomb is any place of burial, but to most it means a chamber or vault in the earth. The word is derived from Latin tumba and Greek tymbos, 'sepulchral mound.' The principal observation of Veterans' Day in the US still takes place at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. Sentries maintain a vigil at the gravesite throughout the year and, since 1960, a flaming torch first lit in Antwerp, Belgium, has been mounted there. Taps are sounded at 11:00 a.m. on November 11 and a wreath is place on the shrine."



    Courtesy of the editor of the Word a Day newsletter and www.dictionary.com

    Rich7
    November 11, 2005 - 07:44 am
    Can't get off the topic of indulgences.

    It is my understanding that indulgences issued by the Pope get you time off from Purgatory.

    What is purgatory? Where is it written that such a place as Purgatory exists? In the bible? I don't think so.

    I believe that it was one of the Popes or Vatican councils that came up with the idea of Purgatory. How convenient for the selling of indulgences, giving people time-off from a place of punishment they just invented!

    But wait. The Church admits they were wrong on the issue of selling of indulgences, and the Pope was wrong on giving indulgences for much of the murder and mayhem of the Crusades.

    Then why can't they be wrong in their whole premise: The concept of Purgatory itself?

    Rich

    mabel1015j
    November 11, 2005 - 11:21 am
    and skeptical and laughing - good things!

    Here is an interesting list of "important" "underrated" inventions from an "authority" i can trust - i think

    http://encarta.msn.com/column_UnderRatedMain/History's_Most_Underrated_Inventions.html

    .......jean

    Scrawler
    November 11, 2005 - 11:27 am
    They arrived at St. Nazaire
    And stood before the dawn
    And shaved by metal mirrors
    And were proud one and all

    The Germans first attacked at
    Rhine-Marne Canal and the
    Losses were not heavy
    But we felt them all

    Next the Battle of Belleau Wood
    Did follow and we crouched
    And stayed through the cool dawn
    And tried to see over the wall

    Then came the battle of Marne
    As we pushed the Germans back again
    Each day one died and then another
    And we buried them next to the wall

    And because we had courage we fought
    At Aisane-Marne, Amiens, and St. Mithiel
    Youth ready to be wasted but we endured
    And we buried them all at the wall

    ~ Anne M. Ogle (Scrawler) "A Century to Remember"

    Every war has its veterans and I thank them one and all.

    mabel1015j
    November 11, 2005 - 12:09 pm
    Succinct piece of economic philosophy. Is there a reference for it? Who said it first?

    Robby - interesting article on Google. Just yesterday in my Historians Associaion newsletter it was reported that Microsoft is going to digitize all the books they can legally , in the British Library, and provide them free to anyone on line! Wow! That along w/ Google working on every other piece of knowledge they can digitize is what I've been waiting on ever since i began to read about the internet!!

    Taking away toll booths? Free bridges? Sounds like de-regulation to me, anyone remember that word?.......jean

    MeriJo
    November 11, 2005 - 01:20 pm
    Beautiful tributes to our fallen military, Mal and Scrawler.

    MeriJo
    November 11, 2005 - 01:25 pm
    Indeed, with the Crusades other avenues toward increased civilization occurred. Yet, when the Ottoman Turks established their empire they closed the way to the East. They closed the ports of the eastern Mediterranean and forced the Western Europeans to look for another way to the East. The Silk Road was closed to them, and this led to the age of westward exploration, and ultimately the discovery of America.

    MeriJo
    November 11, 2005 - 01:32 pm
    Rich7:

    Purgatory is the place where the temporal punishment still due on forgiven sins is exacted. The reason for applying for an indulgence after going to confession is so the sins may be forgiven. In this way, the applicant may remove all the remaining punishment due to him on his forgiven sins. These are venial sins.

    The following explains very nicely how this comes about. It isn't too long, but too long to post.

    http://www.catholic.com/library/Primer_on_Indulgences.asp

    Rich7
    November 11, 2005 - 02:31 pm
    MeriJo,

    Thank you for the piece on indulgences and Purgatory.

    We need to confer on you the title of "Defender of the Faith."

    Here's a piece of historic irony. The Queen of England has a number of official royal titles, and one of them is "Defender of the Faith." Each successor to the British throne has that title (amoung others) conferred on him (or her) at coronation.

    Now for the ironic part. That title was conferred on Henry VIII and his successors by the Roman Catholic pope thanking him for his help in defending the Roman Catholic faith.

    If I recall this correctly, Henry VIII wrote, or commissioned someone to write a rebuttal to Martin Luther's heresy during the Reformation. The Pope was so pleased with the document, he conferred the title of "Defender of the Faith" on Henry and all his successors.

    Henry since split with the Roman Catholic church, but British royalty decided to keep and continue to acknowledge the honor conferred on them by Rome.

    So, when you see the next King (or Queen) being coronated, and the archbishop of Canterbury is reading to the assembled crowd the list of titles this newly crowned is taking on, you will hear the title "Defender of the Faith." Do not think it means defender of the Church of England. It means Defender of the Roman Catholic Faith.

    Ironic, huh?

    Rich

    MeriJo
    November 11, 2005 - 02:34 pm
    Justin:

    The following is what was said in the beginning of the Crusades.

    At first the pilgrims came simply to venerate the relics of the Apostles and martyrs; but in course of time their chief purpose was to gain the indulgences granted by the pope and attached especially to the Stations. Jerusalem, too, had long been the goal of these pious journeys, and the reports which the pilgrims gave of their treatment by the infidels finally brought about the Crusades. At the Council of Clermont (1095) the First Crusade was organized, and it was decreed (can. ii): "Whoever, out of pure devotion and not for the purpose of gaining honor or money, shall go to Jerusalem to liberate the Church of God, let that journey be counted in lieu of all penance". Similar indulgences were granted throughout the five centuries following (Amort, op. cit., 46 sq.), the object being to encourage these expeditions which involved so much hardship and yet were of such great importance for Christendom and civilization. The spirit in which these grants were made is expressed by St. Bernard, the preacher of the Second Crusade (1146): "Receive the sign of the Cross, and thou shalt likewise obtain the indulgence of all thou hast confessed with a contrite heart (ep. cccxxii; al., ccclxii).

    ABUSES

    It may seem strange that the doctrine of indulgences should have proved such a stumbling-block, and excited so much prejudice and opposition. But the explanation of this may be found in the abuses which unhappily have been associated with what is in itself a salutary practice. In this respect of course indulgences are not exceptional: no institution, however holy, has entirely escaped abuse through the malice or unworthiness of man.

    Traffic in Indulgences

    These measures show plainly that the Church long before the Reformation, not only recognized the existence of abuses, but also used her authority to correct them.

    In spite of all this, disorders continued and furnished the pretext for attacks directed against the doctrine itself, no less than against the practice of indulgences. Here, as in so many other matters, the love of money was the chief root of the evil: indulgences were employed by mercenary ecclesiastics as a means of pecuniary gain.

    In the matter of alms-giving this was and still is an accepted practice towards charitable institutions. It is easy to see how this practice was construed to mean a purchase of indulgences. However, by their very nature it would be impossible to be sure that an indulgence had been received by an applicant.

    I found the above excerpts in the Catholic Encyclopedia through Google. There are several other references there from other sources.

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07783a.htm

    MeriJo
    November 11, 2005 - 02:40 pm
    Rich 7:

    You are absolutely right about that title, "Defender of the Faith". Henry VIII was all right with the Church until he decided to divorce Catherine of Aragon. The poor man became obsessed with the wish to leave a male heir. Today, we know that he was infected with syphilis and his one male heir born sickly died in childhood.

    I think England believes that as long as one of its kings received that title it is theirs by inherited honors. It does mean the Anglican Church today, although it was for the Roman Catholic Church.

    Justin
    November 11, 2005 - 02:55 pm
    No matter the character of the sin-venial or mortal,capital or deadly, what is most important to the survival of the organization, is getting the right spin on the sin.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 11, 2005 - 04:40 pm
    Any comments on Durant's words last posted in #710?

    Robby

    Rich7
    November 11, 2005 - 06:19 pm
    Robby, Forgive me. Just one more thing on "Defender of the Faith"

    I've learned that all British coins have FD engraved on them .(Latin for Defender of the Faith -I'm not going to try to spell it out in Latin, on the remote chance that Ginny may be reading this.)

    Prince Charles wants the title changed to " Defender of Faiths" in order to be more PC.

    Rich

    MeriJo
    November 11, 2005 - 07:54 pm
    Robby:

    Your reference in #710 about the Fairs, I think, is more of a human thing of needing to interact with others, and show off their wares. There was much cottage industry in those early days, and individuals and families made a holiday of visiting the local fair for social purposes and to sell their products.

    The still existing medieval towns in Europe have the marketplace and the square where on most Thursdays - market day - people still go to the fair.

    As for these being the beginning of multi-national corporations, they could have been.

    Scholars and statesmen have debated the influence of international commerce on war and peace for thousands of years. Over the centuries, analysts have generally treated the questions "Does international commerce influence security?" and "Do trade flows influence security?" as synonymous.

    http://www.pupress.princeton.edu/titles/8087.html

    MeriJo
    November 11, 2005 - 07:58 pm
    Oh, Justin, the "organization" doesn't turn on sin-of whatever degree. It offers a solution to one who may have a sense of being not right with the world.

    MeriJo
    November 11, 2005 - 08:00 pm
    Rich 7:

    Prince Charles' idea may upset a few lords and ladies of the realm.

    Traude S
    November 11, 2005 - 08:10 pm
    The developing trade by land and sea is testimony of man's enterprising spirit taking advantage of advantageous geographic locations (Venice).

    Fairs are alive and well in Europe. One example only : The 5-day Frankfurt Book Fair 2005 this October, billed as the world's most important event for the book trade, attracted a record number of 7,200 exhibitors from 101 countries and about 280,000 visitors. South Korea was Guest of Honor.

    Around 3,000 other events accompanied the Book Fair and were well attended. The 2006 Frankfurt Book Fair will be held October 4 - 8; India will be the Guest of Honor.

    RICH, I think Prince Charles has a point. There is more than one faith and I have always thought that "Defender of the Faith" is slightly presumptuous (though I am Episcopalian, and as such part of the worldwide Anglican Communion, as it is called). It seem to imply exclusivity ...

    On the other hand, the Catholic Church is known as una sancta = the ONE holy church. That too is a claim to exclusivity.
    I don't mean to split hair or dwell on this and am merely responding.

    3kings
    November 11, 2005 - 08:47 pm
    The most important thing to be considered in running a fair would have been the site. On a river, carrying international trade, and at a town with connections to a rich collection of villages.

    Have you seen all those castles along the Rhine, Vistula, etc. where the local barons could collect a handsome booty from itinerant travelers.

    There would have been intense rivalry between near-by towns, leading to many small wars and raids, that would have made the lives of traders a difficult one.

    The rivalry has persisted till recent centuries... "Our State Fair is the best State Fair in our State. " gives an echo of those turbulent medieval times. The rivalry in the last century saw national firms backed by the Nation State, fighting for raw materials , and market share.

    Perhaps Globalisation will have one good outcome, as International firms couldn't fight themselves. Or perhaps they could...... ? ++ Trevor

    Traude S
    November 11, 2005 - 08:59 pm
    TREVOR, I am not optimistic. I believe that due to the nature of man there will always be intense rivalry, sadly even in the family circle.
    And companies, corporations get bigger, compete ever more heatedly and with often questionable tactics; greedily and ruthlessly gobble up smaller companies; power struggles ensue; wars are all but inevitable - the old refrain. We have seen it all before, again and again. I have no illustions. What remains is a big sadness.

    Justin
    November 11, 2005 - 10:05 pm
    You are right on target, Traude. It is the UNA part of una sancta that causes all the trouble. Exclusivity promotes rivalry and dissension.

    Justin
    November 11, 2005 - 10:11 pm
    Merijo: Some guilt ridden people are lucky they have Mother Church to forgive them but the sins and the organizations I had in mind were those of the Medieval papacy and the Modern White House.

    Bubble
    November 12, 2005 - 03:40 am
    Trevor's mention of globalisation reminded me of this test.

    "It's simply a measure of attitudes and inevitable human contradictions to provide a more integrated definition of where people and parties are really at."

    http://www.politicalcompass.org/

    I came somewhat to the SE of Gandhi.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 12, 2005 - 05:41 am
    That's an absolutely marvelous test, Bubble! I ended up in the Southwest.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 12, 2005 - 06:09 am

    Hi, everybody!

    I'm off to the fair today, bag and baggage. Moving to a mountain town in Pennsylvania where I'm sure (and have read) that the fairs are quite different from those I've known here in central North Carolina for the past almost 15 years.

    After living in an apartment addition to my daughter's house most of that time, I'll be living alone in a handicap-equipped and accessible apartment in a subsidized development consisting of people of all ages, nationalities, races and creeds.

    I'll have 500 square feet for my very own in a town, population 2500, I'd never heard of until a month or so ago. What an adventure!

    My plan is to start writing classes for all those people who've been wanting to write their autobiography for ages and ages, and I'm going to look for other work tutoring, and teaching semi-illiterate East Stroudsburg University students how to read, ha ha. I'll be back to nag you when cable is installed and my computer is hooked up.

    Did you see that Pope Benedict threw his support to Intelligent Design the other day? I would expect nothing less.

    In the Faith,

    Your loving S of C pal, Mal

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 12, 2005 - 06:32 am
    You are headed into a wonderful new chapter in your life, Mal. It's going to be great!

    While we are in the section of Durant called "The Economic Revolution", I thought THIS was appropos.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 12, 2005 - 07:00 am
    "Shipbuilding and navigation had slowly improved since Roman days.

    "Hundreds of coastal cities had good lighthouses. Many -- like Constantinople, Venice, Genoa, Marseille, Barcelona -- had commodious docks.

    "Vessels were usually small with half a deck or none and carrying some thirty tons. So limited, they could ascend rivers far inland. Hence towns like Narbonne, Bordeaux, Nantes, Rouen, Bruges, Bremen, although some distance from the sea, were accessible to ocean going ships and became flourishing ports.

    "Some Mediterranean vessels were larger, carrying 600 tons and 1500 passengers. Venice gave Louis IX a ship 108 feet long manned by 110 men. The ancient galley was still the regular type with high ornamental poop, one or two masts and sails and a low hull for two or three banks of oars -- which might total 200.

    "Most oarsmen were free enlisted men. Galley salaves were rare in the Middle Ages. The art of tacking before the wind, known in the sixth century, developed leisurely until the twelfth when mostly on Italian ships -- fore and aft rigs were added to the old square sail. But the chief motive power still remnained in the oars.

    "The compass, of doubtful origin, appeared in Christian navigation about 1200. Sicilian mariners made it available in rough waters by resting the magnetic needle on a movable pivot. Even so another century passed before mariners (the Norse excepted) dared leave sight of land and steer a straight course across open sea.

    "From November 11 to February 22 ocean voyages were exceptional. They were forbidden to ships of the Hanseatic League. Most Mediterranean or Black Sea shipping halted in that period.

    "Sea travel was as slow as in antiquity. From Marseille to Acre took fifteen days. Voyages were not recommended for health. Piracies and ship wrecks were numerous and the sturdiest stomachs were upset. Froissart tells how Sir Herve de Leon took fifteen days tossing between Southampton and Harfleur and 'was so trouble that he had never health afterward.'

    "As poor compensation, fares were low. Six pence paid for a Channel crossing in the fourteenth century. Proportionate costs for freight and long voyages gave water transport an advantage that in the thirteenth century transformed the political map of Europe."

    Water lovers, anyone?

    Robby

    Rich7
    November 12, 2005 - 08:07 am
    Good luck, Mal

    Rich

    Rich7
    November 12, 2005 - 08:49 am
    Bubble,

    I took your Political Compass test (post #735). I'm just Southeast of Tony Blair, edging toward Milton Friedman.

    Rich

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 12, 2005 - 09:03 am
    What -- no "northerners" here?

    Robby

    kiwi lady
    November 12, 2005 - 10:22 am
    Mal your new apartment is the same size as my studio where Ruth lives. Best wishes for a smooth move!

    Carolyn

    kiwi lady
    November 12, 2005 - 10:47 am
    I am libertarian left. But then you all would know that by now LOL!

    Carolyn

    MeriJo
    November 12, 2005 - 10:48 am
    Best wishes, Mal. It sounds like a good move for you.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 12, 2005 - 10:50 am
    Any suggestions on how we can get some "rightists" in here to help stimulate the discussion?

    Robby

    MeriJo
    November 12, 2005 - 11:04 am
    Justin:

    I appreciate your point of view. Many people have the same idea of a large entity being the Church. It isn't. The organization part is merely for administration. It truly represents guidelines for living for an individual.

    As for "una sancta" there is more to it than those two attributes which are frequently not understood - it is catholic and apostolic as well.

    Medieval papacy covers a lot of ground. I should not go into it here.

    The Modern Day White House is also a subject that one should not go into here.

    Back to the Story of Civilization:

    Sea voyages were disastrous during the years of exploration. Although the Chinese had discovered a way to measure longitude early on, the west never had a longitudinal clock until well into the eighteenth century.

    Ships would set sail and wander all over the ocean with only the compass. It was always a game of chance. Many attempts at devising a longitudinal clock had taken place, but were unreliable. Still some voyages succeeded and trade began to occur.

    MeriJo
    November 12, 2005 - 11:07 am
    I took the test and didn't really check, but my position is just one square south of the horizontal median line and one square east of the vertical median line. I guess I am as about as even as I can be without perching on one of the lines.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 12, 2005 - 11:14 am
    In line with our discussion of ships and trade, here is an Associated Press article.

    SOMALIA: LINER DOCKS AFTER PIRATE ATTACK A cruise liner that was chased and attacked by pirates off Somalia on Saturday docked safely in the Seychelles, in the western Indian Ocean. Passengers described their horror as pirates in speedboats chased the liner, the Seabourn Spirit, firing rocket-propelled grenades and other weapons for 90 minutes. "I was very scared," said Jean Noll of Florida. Charles Supple of California said he had tried to take a photograph. "The man with the bazooka aimed it right at me," he said. "Needless to say, I dropped the camera and dived." No gunmen boarded the ship, but a crew member was injured by shrapnel, according to the Miami-based Seabourn Cruise Line, a subsidiary of Carnival Corporation. The liner, with 151 passengers, mainly from the United States, Europe and Australia, had been at the end of a 16-day voyage from Alexandria, Egypt. (AP)

    Robby

    Bubble
    November 12, 2005 - 11:38 am
    terrorists on sea as well as terrorists on land...

    kiwi lady
    November 12, 2005 - 11:42 am
    Last night I had a phone call from Vanessa who arrived safely with her partner in Istanbul. Yesterday they walked along the Bospherus and today they are off to see some of the wondrous buildings we have been talking about in this discussion.

    She had been greeted very warmly by Cenks parents and a Turkish feast and a house full of friends awaited them when they arrived from the airport.

    Carolyn

    Rich7
    November 12, 2005 - 12:58 pm
    The German poet Ranier Maria Relke once wrote that a thing does not really exist until someone names it.

    The liberal press (An expression you would expect me to use because I come down on the right side of the Compass test.) refuses to call these people what they are- Muslim Terrorists. The press chooses to call the people on that boat out of radical Muslim Somalia "pirates."

    Pirates. Maybe we should be in the Treasure Island discussion group, instead.

    Rich

    mabel1015j
    November 12, 2005 - 01:36 pm
    what a wonderful place to be! Wouldn't that be a conversation to be in?

    More people on the right for this discussion? Let's se-e-e, I think i actually have ONE friend who is on the Right.......interesting isn't it? How we congregate w/ people who think like us, even on-line? What's that all about Robby? Do we not know how to discuss differences w/out conflict? Ah-h-h-h is this the first step to all this conflict we've been discussing?.....jean

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 12, 2005 - 02:39 pm
    There are a lot of "rightest" people in the political discussions. How do you think they would fare with us? Or how would we fare?

    Robby

    Rich7
    November 12, 2005 - 03:52 pm
    Robby,

    I try to keep politics out of my postings. It's so easy to go down that slippery slope to pretty serious verbal shoot-outs and ad-hominum attacks.

    The political discussion groups are full of vitriol. I prefer to see that kind of discourse kept in the political discussion groups and out of The Story of Civilization.

    I am very much enjoying the Story of Civilization, its discussion leader, and ALL the participants. We seem to be connecting well as a diverse group, and I would like to see it stay that way.

    Rich

    Traude S
    November 12, 2005 - 03:57 pm
    A good opportunity. I give credit to those who thought it up. To judge from the anglicized spelling of word endings in -sed, the authors were not Americans. (Gosh, in the present climate would anyone dare ??)
    I took the test --- something I do not normally do. (Nor do I send on any e-Forwards; they remind me too much of the old chain letters.)

    The survey offered no options other than agree/disagree, strongly agree/disagree, AND no room for "other" or "doubt" or some such. If availabale, that would have given me the opportunity to put in "STRUCTURE" when "discipline" was in the question.

    One question gave me pause : "Governments should penalise (sic) businesses that mislead the public". Good thought.
    But what if governments mislead the people?

    Traude S
    November 12, 2005 - 04:06 pm
    RICH, just saw your # 755 when I checked mine for typos (from which there is no escape no matter how hard one tries).
    I quite agree with you about not participating in any political discussion - mercy, I don't even know where they are - and I have no desire to look for them.
    So I'll keep quiet while we determine who is right or left or in between.

    kiwi lady
    November 12, 2005 - 04:09 pm
    Traude I participate in the Political discussions and yes I donn a crash helmet when I enter. I get really abused for my views from certain posters. However I shall not be moved I stand by my convictions. LOL

    winsum
    November 12, 2005 - 04:25 pm
    greetings: I can skip the part I don't like and do, but the company and the referals are super so I lurk . . . .from time to time. The pirates are probably discussed in Current Events. . .will check. and Justin as usual has much to contribute.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 12, 2005 - 04:52 pm
    We are open to comments about sea trade as discussed by Durant in Post 739.

    Robby

    winsum
    November 12, 2005 - 05:04 pm
    if the left is west and minus goes there I'm a square. . . minus seven in one direction and minus 6.75 in the other. . . pretty damn liberal. . west and south of every thing.But the world is not as we would have it and how would it work if it were. that's the question

    as to sea trade it has to do with the size of cargos. Ultimatly other means will be faster and more efficient. . .think SPACE TRAVEL. . . . . . . Claire

    Justin
    November 12, 2005 - 06:04 pm
    My compass reading is right .63 and south 3.54. That puts me due south of Gerhard Schroeder. If you disclose your numbers you can be plotted and we will then know your orientation when something off the wall appears in a posting.

    There are no examples for comparison in the south west quadrant.Perhaps, that's why I feel so different sometimes.

    Fifi le Beau
    November 12, 2005 - 06:42 pm
    So many posts here to read when I returned from my four year old grandson's birthday party.

    I took the test Bubble put up, and wound up between the Dalai Lama and Nelson Mandela. We used to give these same tests only with more questions to prospective employees where I once worked. I consider them rather useless because like Traude some of the questions need an 'other' box to check.

    The New Yorker did an article on these types of tests and how they started, but I could not find it online, and have already given my magazines away. They exposed the tests as not doing what they were purported to be designed to accomplish.

    Last but not least, 'where are the women'? Not one woman showed on my map though we make up over 50% of the populace. There are many women who work tirelessly for the betterment of the human race who could have been in my South West quadrate, well known or not.

    Fifi

    winsum
    November 12, 2005 - 06:42 pm
    It's just not an issue here. I can sound off the wall at times to someone who isn't like me but then it's mutual isn't it. interesting though I didn't know I was THAT liberal. . . Claire

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 12, 2005 - 06:49 pm
    My compass reading is left 8 and 6 south. I guess that shows you all where I stand (almost off the chart). Apparently to me Gandhi was a rightist. Good thing I am in that position. Imagine if I was rigid in my thinking. How else could I deal with some of the types of patients I have who are all over the chart. For that matter, how could I put up with all of you for over four years.

    Robby

    winsum
    November 12, 2005 - 06:57 pm
    I can't remember only that one was left and the other south and that one was 6.75 and the other 7. looks like robby and I are neighbors. . . it's funny though I'm as rigid in my LIBERAL beliefs as some RIGHTISTS are in their conservative ones. . . .claire

    Justin
    November 12, 2005 - 07:03 pm
    Una Sancta may include apostolic and catholic as additional attributes but none other than una has been a source of conflict in the world. It is only when one religion declares itself the possessor of the only "true god" that conflict arises. It says very plainly that if my god is the true god then your god is not true. That's no way to make friends nor is it a way to Love one's neighbor as thyself. What's more it is a violation of the teaching of Jesus. Traude is right exclusivity is not good for human consumption.

    MeriJo
    November 12, 2005 - 07:06 pm
    Robby: Your #739

    Durant does present a very unpleasant experience for sea voyages, but there was a need for a beginning some where as curiosity tempted many of the traders to go farther.

    Going up and down the rivers in Europe still goes on plus using canals which were since built. One may take a river cruise in Germany on the Main River and on the Moselle and Rhine Rivers and others and stop off in the medieval cities to tour and to shop - something continuing to this day that began back in the Middle Ages.

    Inland, I would think this would be a safe and rather quick way to travel for merchants wishing to sell their goods.

    Pilgrimage Routes

    A new Christian fervor began to sweep western Europe at the end of the 11th century A.D. Lords and commoners alike flocked to take part in pilgrimages to famous shrines such as St. Peter and St. Paul in Rome and St. James de Compostela in northwestern Spain. Pilgrimage routes became arteries of trade and cultural interchange based on shared religious belief, giving western Europe an international character unparalleled in more recent centuries. Innovations in art and architecture followed and internationally recognized schools of learning began to develop on Paris, France, and Bologna, Italy. From these schools, the first universities in Europe developed in the 12th century A.D. ("Smithsonian Timelines of the Ancient World - A Visual Chronology from the Origins of Life to 1500 A. D.")

    MeriJo
    November 12, 2005 - 07:16 pm
    With regard to the origins of the compass also from the Smithsonian Timelines Book:

    Magnetic Compass

    European invasion of the Levant during the Crusades in the 12th and 13th centuries A. D. and the active commerce between Italian cities such as Genoa, Venice, and Pisa and the Middle East, brought oriental innovations to medieval Europe. One of the most important was the magnetic compass. This had been invented in China in the 12th century A. D. and soon spread westward. As early as A. D. 1218, a French manuscript describes it as essential for navigation at sea and by A. D. 1225 it was being used in places as remote as Iceland. The novelty of the compass was that it allowed navigators to plot an accurate course when the sky was obscured by mist or bad weather - a common problem in northern Europe.

    MeriJo
    November 12, 2005 - 07:35 pm
    Justin:

    The Church is one because of its source, the unity in the Holy Trinity. It is one because of its founder, Jesus, who brought together all men to God by the cross. It is one because of its "soul". The Holy Spirit lives in it bringing together the faithful in unity with Christ. Unity is the essence of the Church.

    Jesus died on the cross for all men and had preached for three years before and for forty days after His Resurrection certain truths of which we have read here partially and noted how misunderstood they were. He established one church and not a myriad of them.

    Justin: I would be glad to answer your questions as best as I can, but not here. Email me. I think some of the posters and I feel uncomfortable with this digression. I think we need to stay on-topic.

    kiwi lady
    November 12, 2005 - 08:30 pm
    Meri- Jo your post highlites the problem. "He established One church" In fact the first churches were house churches. There was no building and there were little groups of Christians dotted about all with their own leaders. I have a problem with any denomination which says they are the one true church.

    Justin
    November 12, 2005 - 11:35 pm
    Merijo. I am not asking you questions and we are on target. These issues are pertinent. The volume of Durant we are reading is called the Age of Faith. There are two significant religions in the work- Roman Catholicism and Islam. They are both guilty of advocating exclusivity. That is the reason for the Crusades. This is no small thing we are treating here. The issue is alive and active today. Today's Jihad is little different from yesterday's Jihad. The western Christians are back attacking Allah's people in a Crusade and it was the current White house who named our venture in the Middle East a Crusade.

    Bubble
    November 13, 2005 - 01:47 am
    I had to redo the test so as to post my compass reading: -6.13 and 3.44 South.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 13, 2005 - 05:44 am
    MeriJo, I have no problem with your discussing items such as the beliefs of specific religions so long as no one here says: "You are wrong. Your religion is wrong." Then, no matter what my compass says, I get rigid! But, according to my compass reading, I am way over to the left and way down toward being libertarian, meaning I guess, that I will listen carefully to whatever any of you say even if it is different from my own belief, that I will allow you to say it even if it offends my own belief, and that I accept the fact that everyone is different, is entitled to be different, and does not have to be like me. This has been my approach for four years.

    In my psychology practice I hear words of obscenity that I never use but I allow them to use them. I hear behavior that is radically different from my own behavior. I see them use behavior in my office that I accept so long as they don't approach being violent. I see them wear clothes that you never see on me. Some of my patients are gay and that is OK with me. Some are devout and some are atheists. Some are illiterate but we still communicate. They tell me about sexual practices that don't appeal to me in any way. Some are of different beliefs but I accept that and never NEVER try to get them to believe as I do.

    I tell my patients that I am not a counselor. Counselors counsel. They give advice. I NEVER give advice. I am a psychotherapist. I reflect back to them what they say to me and then we examine that together. We discuss it -- bounce it around. And if they change (as I point out to them), they will have changed themselves. I did not change them.

    I tell my patients who want to stop smoking "If you want to go on smoking, go ahead. I will not tell you to stop." But in the process of our throwing their thoughts up in the air and looking at them, they usually stop.

    I think that if my compass had shown me to be more to the right and up toward being authoritarian, I would not have been able to be DL here. You people would have driven me nuts!

    I am -7.88 economic and -5.85 social libertarian. So sue me!

    Robby

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    November 13, 2005 - 07:16 am
    Bubble, This test sure made a lot of waves and I was surprised at my score right where Ghandi is too, but I think our score has moved over time as we are now much older. (I mean older than the one who wrote this test) We become less radical and more tolerent.

    Robby, I am not surprised that yours is off the chart, could it be because you answered every question with Strongly Disagree and Strongly Agree?

    As Traude says, a gray area should have been included in the middle such as Yes and No because in some cases it is both 'agree' and 'disagree'.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 13, 2005 - 07:34 am
    Yes, Eloise. I marked many "strongly." But please keep in mind, everyone, that while I have strong beliefs I also accept "strongly" the beliefs of others. Because I will not always try to change your beliefs does not mean I am a wimp. I have often had hot discussions with others but not bitter discussions. I try but if you continue in the same direction, I still like you as a person.

    "A person convinced against his will
    Is of the same opinion still."

    Robby

    winsum
    November 13, 2005 - 08:07 am
    Robby I ended up in that lower left quadrant with what amounts to a square. minus seven and minus 6.75 pretty close to you...so why do we "disagree'? probably because both of us STRONGLY whatever and anything that is different is VERY DIFFERENT. I really hate the Durand's but I like all of you. You're much more tolerant in general but it escapes me why you would;d want to delve into this awful material . . .unless . . . like me, . . . you like the company. . . .Claire

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 13, 2005 - 08:20 am
    Claire:-I wasn't aware that I disagreed with you.

    Robby

    Rich7
    November 13, 2005 - 08:28 am
    Just re=took the test to get a number.

    Economic: +1.88

    Libertarian: -1.41

    I guess that makes me the discussion's "token conservative"

    Rich

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 13, 2005 - 09:45 am
    Now that we have a general idea of where we all stand on the "left-right" chart, are we ready to get back to being historians? Let us move on with the Economic Revolution.

    "Strategecially placed between the East and West athwart the Mediterranean, with ports facing in three directions upon that sea, and with northern cities commanding the passes of the Alps, Italy was geographically bound to profit most from the trade of Europe with Byzantium, Palestine, and Islam.

    "On the Adriatic stood Venice, Ravenna, Rimini, Ancorta, Bari, Brindisi, Taranto.

    "On the south, Crotone.

    "Along her west coast Reggio, Salerno, Amalfi, Naples, Ostia, Pisa, and Lucca carried a rich commerce, and Florence, the banker, pulled the financial strings.

    "The Arno and the Po took some of the trade inland to Padua, Ferrara, Cremona, Fiazenza, and Pavia.

    "Rome drew the tithes and fees of European piety to her shrines.

    "Siena and Bologna stood at the generative crossing of great interior roads.

    "Milan, Como, Brescia, Verona, and Venice gathered into their laps the fruits of the trade that moved over the Alps to and from the Danube and the Rhine.

    "Genoa dominated the Tyrrhenian Sea as Venice ruled the Adriatic. Her merchant fleet numbered 100 vessels manned by 20,000 men. Her trading ports reached from Corsica to Trebizond. Like Venice and Pisa, Genoa traded freely with Islam. Venice with Egypt -- Pisa with Tunisia -- Genoa with Moorish Africa and Spain.

    "Many of them sold arms to the Saracens during the Crusades. Powerful popes like Innocent III demounced all traffic with the Moslems but gold ran thicker than faith or blood, and the 'blasphemous trade' went on."

    Money. Money. Money. Listen to the clinking. Feel the luxury of it all. That is, if you were in a class high enough to feel it.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 13, 2005 - 09:52 am
    Here is a MAP OF ITALY showing many of the major cities. Note the amount of water surrounding Italy, as indicated by Durant. Allow time for downloading.

    Robby

    Rich7
    November 13, 2005 - 09:55 am
    Bubble, That was a great test. Thanks for bringing it to us. I think the publishers might be interested in how this group tested.

    I had a couple of places where I didn't really know how to answer. There was one question that was phrased something like "There is a worrying confusion of information and entertainment." I agree...I guess.

    Then the phrasing of a question kind of leads you to an answer. For instance: "It is natural for children to keep some secrets from their parents." Answer: I agree, of course. What if it were worded differently?- "It is OK for Teenagers to have abortions without telling their parents." Would you have answered differently?

    Rich

    Bubble
    November 13, 2005 - 10:54 am
    personally I would have answered the same, Rich: if the parents did not earn the trust of their daughter...

    winsum
    November 13, 2005 - 10:56 am
    I think psychology is more interesting than history too. the missing element in the test was the emotional one. it was all social and political issues. How they are expressed makes all the difference.

    we're discussing this in the atheist folder if it interests you. I'm not into being a historian so will leave you all to it. . . .claire

    Traude S
    November 13, 2005 - 10:56 am
    ROBBY, that's an excellent up-to-date map of Italy, showing the neighboring countries, with the independent regions of the former Yugoslavia.

    Durant mentions "On the South Crotone" without further information. Not shown on the map, Crotone is located in the region of Calabria, at the very end of the Italian peninsula.

    " ... traded freely with Islam" bothers me. The trade was not with Islam, a faith, but rather with Islamic countries.

    A point of possible interest : The island of Corsica was sold to France by Genua in 1768, where Napoleon was born in 1767 as Napoleone Buonaparte and is said to have tried to change his year of birthday so that he would be registered as French born (!)

    Bubble
    November 13, 2005 - 11:02 am
    Crotone was famous as the birth place of someone in history... I can't remember who that was. Help!

    Scrawler
    November 13, 2005 - 11:36 am
    "[In April Geoffrey Chaucer at the Tabard inn in Southwerk, across the Thames from London, joins a group of pilgrims on their way to the Shrine of Thomas a Becket in Canterbury. He describes almost all of the nine and twenty pilgrims in this company, each of whom practices a different trade (often dishonestly). The Host of the Tabard, Harry Bailey, proposes that he join them as a guide and that each of the pilgrims should tell tales (two on the outward journey, two on the way back(; whoever tells the best tale will win a supper, at the other pilgrims' cost when they return.

    The pilgrims agree, and Chaucer warns his readers that he must repeat each tale exactly as he heard it, even though it might contain frank language. The next morning the company sets out, pausing at the Watering of St. Thomas, where all draw straws and the Knight is thus selected to tell the first tale etc."

    ~ Until Chaucer wrote "The Canterbury Tales" he was known primarily as a maker of poems of love --dream visions of the sort exemplified in "The Parliament of Fowls" and "the Book of the Duchess," narratives of doomed passion, such as "Troilus and Criseyde," and stories of women wronged by their lovers that he tells in "The Legend of Good Women."

    http://www.courses.fas.harvard.edu/~chaucer/canttales/gp/

    Rich7
    November 13, 2005 - 11:47 am
    Looking at the map, you can see Durant's point about about Italy being strategically placed for trade in the Mediterranean. First glance at that same map would also lead you to think that Italy, hanging out there by itself, was also venerable to takeover by force in such dangerous times.

    Italy has, however, a natural feature that precludes any total takeover:- the mountains that run down its spine. Armies and equipment don't move easily over those mountains. Even in WWII, the American army had great difficulty moving up the peninsula against the dug-in Germans because of the easily defensible terrain.

    The battle of Montecasino is a good example, where a small German contingent held off a larger Allied force for a considerable period of time, and with many casualties on the Allied side.

    Rich

    MeriJo
    November 13, 2005 - 01:27 pm
    Thank you Robby for your post about my discussion with Justin. I'll do the best I can.

    I took the test again, too and I was right on the vertical line this time - one square below the horizontal line. My numbers were -0.38 economic(?) and -0.62(?) social. I guess I am still pretty even in my thinking. I have never been good at reading graphs. I know I can be calm.

    Justin
    November 13, 2005 - 01:32 pm
    Crotone is the birthplace of Pythagorus.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 13, 2005 - 01:37 pm
    Let me see now, MeriJo. You are practically in the middle going across and practically in the middle going up and down. To me that means that you have no opinion whatsoever about anything at all at any time, and if you did it is not worth our discussing.

    Robby

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    November 13, 2005 - 01:54 pm

    Justin
    November 13, 2005 - 02:05 pm
    Merijo; Never mind, Robby. I think you are a woman with opinions even if he doesn't think it shows in the test.

    So far in the reporting most of our discussants are clustered in the LLQ. Rick and I are the only ones in the RLQ. The entire northern hemisphere is blank. We are clearly not authoritarian and therefore not likely to tell anyone they are wrong.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 13, 2005 - 02:05 pm
    I think my good friend, Eloise, is afraid that participants here will not know when I am teasing.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 13, 2005 - 02:07 pm
    Regarding your 793 post, Justin, I think you are wrong.

    Robby

    winsum
    November 13, 2005 - 02:07 pm
    can hurt. . .be careful how you do it. . .sensitivity is the bye wrod. . . .OUCH ROBBY OUCH. . .If Marijo won't complain about it I'll do it for her. That wasn't nice. . . .Claire

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 13, 2005 - 02:17 pm
    I only tease my friends. They know me. They have been watching how courteously I have been speaking for four years. Have I suddenly changed? Am I drunk? Am I having a psychotic episode? Have I suddenly started to dislike MeriJo after all our friendly interchanges? Have I suddenly lost all respect for MeriJo after reading all her carefully thoughtout and written posts? Does one "apparently" serious comment override years worth of "light" remarks? If so, then place me in the northern half of the graph and I will make it a point to lose my sense of humor.

    Robby

    winsum
    November 13, 2005 - 02:25 pm
    that seems to be the argument.Intimacy does create vulnerability and a harsh remark carries more weight because of it. Not history though so skip it. . . .and back to Durant. . .

    Justin
    November 13, 2005 - 02:25 pm
    Ok. So 793 is wrong.

    Justin
    November 13, 2005 - 02:29 pm
    Merijo and Traude are encouraging me to be more precise in language and thought and to generalize less in expression. I think they are right to do so and I promise to benefit from their efforts.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 13, 2005 - 02:31 pm
    Justin admitted he was wrong. So now we hate each other. The whole discussion group is falling apart.

    Anyone ready to get back to Durant's last post? I can very easily resign if you wish and run for vice-president.

    I believe that Eloise and Mal are the only ones here who have ever met me personally -- Mal once and Eloise a number of times. Here's your chance to be a psychoanalyst, Eloise. Tell them what I am really like and don't spare any words.

    Robby

    Bubble
    November 13, 2005 - 02:32 pm
    Robby, I am shaking and hiding in the corner, expecting the thunder to come..."Zeus in anger".

    Justin, Pythagoras of Samos surely? An artist or a writer, roman probably... old age dulled my memory.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 13, 2005 - 02:35 pm
    My apologies, Bubble. You met me personally too. OK - give 'em the truth about me. I'll be hiding in the corner.

    Robby

    Bubble
    November 13, 2005 - 02:41 pm
    "HE" is awesome, he has lots of personality, he is sharp, he keeps his thoughts very much to himself while nothing escapes him and I have no idea who "HE" really is... That is the truth, all the truth, nothing but the truth.

    Lots of magnetism too I think...

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 13, 2005 - 02:45 pm
    Thank you, Bubble, but you left out that I am also handsome and humble.

    Robby

    Bubble
    November 13, 2005 - 02:47 pm
    Mmmmm, humble? you must have kept that to yourself too! As for handsome... I was expecting a baise-main at least!

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 13, 2005 - 02:55 pm
    Here is the definition of BAISE-MAIN. I hate being thrown up against those people who are multi-lingual lowering my self-esteem tremendously.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 13, 2005 - 02:58 pm
    Mal has just arrived in Pennsylvania and here is her latest update.

    Teatime Sunday afternoon

    Hello from tired me. I suppose I got to bed sometime after 5 a.m., today, since Chris, Lizzie and Lizzie''s brother had to bring my mattress and spring in and set them up because there have been some furniture changes since I was up here before.

    I didn't sleep as much as I wanted to because Carol's dog, Daisy, got in here before 8, and we had a little dog and cat confrontation for a while. Bibby arched her back, but mostly looked curious about this noisy animal who is smaller than she is.

    Yes, the trip up was good. Chris is an excellent driver; Yraffic was light except where there was an accident and things were jammed up for a few minutes. He drove all the way with only a couple of stops. I don't know how he did it after working so hard packing the truck with the others.<br.<br.Dorian had done a fine job of packing boxes, so the loading of the truck went with relative ease.

    My appointment with the property manager is at 11. Chris and Serena have an appointment at Leah's school, so they'll drop me off at 10 or so and come with the truck around 2. I just heard that Megan and Scott are on the way. Maybe they'll get the truck over and start unloading as soon as I sign the papers.

    Chris pushed me over rough terrain to the outside entrance door of the lowest level room, which I cannot get to via the stairs. The sofa and chaise are there, and I was able to look at them. I have to see my apartment again to be able to tell if it's large enoough to take this rather bulky furniture. I told Chris I'd be a fool to say no to the offer, but I don't want to live with something that doesn't feel right to me, either.

    Sometime I have to get to a supermarket and buy food. I have the list made. When I'll get there I don't know.

    The $10 Cole Haan brown oxfords were here when I arrived. They're used, of course, but not very much. It seems nice not to be wearing my daughter's sneakers, even though they were nicely broken in and comfortable. I have bid on a paid of Josef Seibel ankle high lacee-up paddock boots. If I get those at a low price I will have 3 "new" pairs of shoes.

    Chris, Serena and the children are going to his father's for Thanksgiving, and they and Carol are going to Florida for Christmas, I learned yesterday. I'm disappointed about Christmas. Lizzie said she'll be around, so maybe she and I can celebrate together, we'll see. One of hte books I bought for Leah arrived.. It's fun with "pop-up" pages. I haven't seen much of her and Donny today. They've been busy because their little cousin J,.J. is here, and so, of course, is Lizzie, who is their favorite aunt. J. J. is Lizzie and Serena's younger brother's little boy.

    I'll post more early tomorrow. Then there'll be silence from me until I have moved into my apartment and cable has breen installed for the computer.

    Mal

    winsum
    November 13, 2005 - 03:11 pm
    how about apologising to Marijo sorta like this. I'm sorry if you were hurt" it's really easy

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 13, 2005 - 03:14 pm
    I have no idea if MariJo is hurt or is sitting back laughing at all this. If she is hurt, she will say so and I never have a problem apologizing to people.

    Robby

    Justin
    November 13, 2005 - 03:34 pm
    Mal: When you first told us about the Pennsy place I thought you were going to be isolated in the hill country but judging from what you have been telling us lately you will be in the middle of an established family that will look after you.I hope that's true. I don't know why, with three pairs of new shoes, you don't walk to the supermarket.

    MeriJo
    November 13, 2005 - 03:48 pm
    Actually, Robby, I was not sure how to take your remark. You more or less agreed with my conclusion of myself from the test's results, although I do have opinions. - It was a very broadly stated test - so I stayed with the "disagree" and "agree" I know that certain things upset me, but I have become quite tolerant since I have been so dependent on people these past two years. It is a life I would never have expected for myself at this age. I've decided to go along with it all.

    The first time I was one square to the right and one square down. The second time I took the test, I was still one square down but perched on the line or one square to the left.

    MeriJo
    November 13, 2005 - 03:50 pm
    Thank you, winsum, for your chivalrous words!

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 13, 2005 - 04:08 pm
    Thank you, MeriJo, for letting me know how you feel about my remarks which were intended to be humorous and not to hurt. I am very sorry that they were barbed even though clothed in semi-humor. Throughout this discussion you have been, in my opinion, and probably in everyone else's, a valuable participant. Your contributions have been valuable not only in terms of furnishing information which some of us did not know but in terms of sharing your points of view.

    My opinion of you given in that specific posting was exactly the opposite of what I truly think of you. I am sorry that you have that opinion of yourself. I tend to be rather thick-skinned. I will listen to what people say and consider it seriously but if it is a "barb" against me, I don't usually get hurt. My mistake (and this is not the first time I have made it) is in assuming before thinking that others take these "tease remarks" as easily as I.

    As regards your results in the test, I could make the opposite conclusion. I could say that from your vantage point in the center, you are able to see all sides and be extremely empathetic. This is a quality that most people do not have. I congratulate you for it.

    Please forgive me for turning what I had intended to be a light-hearted Sunday afternoon into an hour or so of hurt. If, in the future, I lean again toward "negative humor," please let me know right away. As Nietzche said (paraphrasing):-Our own selves are the last we get to know.

    I am so sorry, MeriJo.

    Robby

    MeriJo
    November 13, 2005 - 04:08 pm
    Justin:

    I'll explain a little further. When Christianity began in the Middle East with the preaching of the apostles and with the assistance of those who were baptized on Pentecost - the bible says 3000 - the word about Jesus' teachings continued for many years solely by preaching. During these years there rose a group of men known later as the Doctors of the Church who did begin to record some of what was being preached.

    The Middle East did not accept fully the teachings of Jesus. There arose apostasies, schisms and heresies which in the first two situations allowed groups to break away and form their own churches, and in the third situation caused people to profess very different and wrong beliefs than what Jesus had taught. In the Middle East, Constantine further created a division in giving the western Emperor in Rome authority while he reigned in the East. The Orthodox Church in the East gradually grew in numbers and continues to this day. There were a few who continued to follow the teachings of Jesus and these found followers in the West. These continued in the Middle East, too, but in lesser numbers.

    In the west as Christianity took root and popes began to exercise authority over lands which they claimed, as well as over the faithful, Christianity became the over-riding belief as we have read here.

    During all this time the Doctors of the Church, Augustine, Ambrose, Tertullian, Origen, Cyril, Ireneus, and others - famously, Jerome who began to organize the Scriptures into what was later known as the Bible, began to organize the teachings of Jesus in written form.

    It is important to note here that these people were guided also by the mores of the times, by the customs and culture of the times, by the laws of the land, and so what they began was a work in progress.

    There followed centuries of further extending and detailing what was believed to be the will of Jesus in these teachings. Human beings and clergy being fallible and finite and susceptible to temptation began to accommodate themselves with regard to the teachings of Jesus. Their misuse and misinterpretation by these clerics of the teachings of Jesus led to the anger in general among people.

    Therefore we began to have abuse and error and constant strife among the nobles, the people and the clergy. This went on for centuries. Throughout this time there occurred discontent and murmurings against the clergy i. e. the Church, and these along with heresies which had continued to appear here and there needed to be addressed.

    The Popes could direct the ecclesisatical tribunals and mete a sentence - unfortunately according to the times, these would often be the burning of people at the stake. However, the Church could not carry out these sentences. These poor people were turned over to the State for the actual carrying out of the sentence.

    There was much horror during these times. This along with other abuses culminated in riots and disorder and eventually the Reformation led by Martin Luther. As these groups split off from the Latin Church and founded their own churches they became known as Protestants - protesting the Latin Church's statements and beliefs.

    Simultaneously with these events there were good and right-thinking people in the Church who further studied and offered more information regarding the teachings of Jesus.

    One of the tenets of faith were the attributes to be found in the Catholic Church. It is one in its unity, it is holy because Jesus is in it, it is catholic because it is universal in its teachings wherever it is, and it is apostolic because from the day Jesus told Peter he would build his church on him, in consecutive order Peter ordained and consecrated priests and bishops and each in turn did so through the centuries in an unbroken line.

    The above is only partial information because under each attribute there are different situations that may be identified.

    It is my hope here to point out that the errors were those of Catholic individuals, clergy, teachers, and people. Education was limited, and most of what was understood could change in the telling. In that their words, depending on their station, could influence, is the basic reason for all the turmoil that occurred.

    There was just too much.

    Further, the people who were informed would hesitate to support correct decisions. This happened to Galileo, Pope Urban, as a priest had appreciated Galileo's scientific findings, but once he became Pope, he did not support Galileo but opted for the Biblical interpretation of the time. ("Galileo's Daughter" describes this fully.) It was more important to stay with what was known than to explore further. This must have been a tremendous time when all these scientific facts were emerging in astronomy and space. There was a lot of conflict.

    This is about all I should write here. It's too long as it is.

    MeriJo
    November 13, 2005 - 04:17 pm
    Robby:

    Absolutely, I am not hurt. I was interested in your interpretation of my test results, but it, as you said, could have gone either way which is what I was thinking about too, that I was rather "even" in my thinking.

    Thank you for your kind words. I am just fine with it all.

    Also, I appreciate your comments with regard to my posts. They were nice. Thank you.

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    November 13, 2005 - 04:20 pm
    MeriJo, you never disappoint me. Most statesmen and leaders of consequence are/were diplomatic and avoid confrontation. I don't see anything wrong in that, but I have seen strong opinions shift from left to right and back again over time. Don't tell me everybody that you have always had the same score throughout life, I don't believe it.

    As to Robby's question that I know him, yes I do. I know him both personally and in discussions participation during the past 8 years. Perhaps MeriJo doesn't know that Story of Civilization is Robby's playground. After the job of listening to problems of every kind, some patients I bet have horrendous stories to tell him, he comes in S of C to enjoy himself and relax, he even poked fun at me a number of times. I got mad at him more than once. He either ignores me, makes fun of me or, if I am lucky, explains himself, but rarely. He lets people fix their own problems as he said.

    I just was concerned that MeriJo would not know Robby as I do, that's all. Now can we get on with it please?

    MeriJo
    November 13, 2005 - 04:46 pm
    Kiwi Lady:

    You are right in that devotions were held in different houses in the beginning of Christianity, but I was referring to the belief. The belief of the Catholic Church is unified in content. No matter where on earth a Catholic may attend Mass, for example, it is recognizable no matter what language is used for the prayer.

    I attended Mass in Barcelona, Spain. It was in the Catalan language - couldn't understand a word, but I recognized the different parts and at the point where I would turn to the person next to me in the pew to wish her, (in this case), "Peace", and extend my hand for a handshake, she turned to me and said something in Catalan and I said "Peace be to you," in English, and we both smiled at each other and shook hands.

    That is the oneness of which I speak.

    mabel1015j
    November 13, 2005 - 10:51 pm
    Back to Fifi's "where are the women comment?" I concur Fifi, so I re-evaluated and "found" i am between Eleanor of Acquataine and Eleanor Roosevelt, with a little Peggy Lee thrown in......Wow! Wouldn't that be a woman!!

    Trude - thank's for speaking for all of us who don't like only black and white answers; forced choices can be paralyzing, unless you're Harry Truman ......jean

    mabel1015j
    November 13, 2005 - 10:53 pm
    glad to see that side of you Robby, you're so good at keeping us on track, i was thinking you might be a little stodgy.....HA!....jean

    Justin
    November 13, 2005 - 11:16 pm
    All is forgiven, Robby. Let us return to Durant.

    Justin
    November 13, 2005 - 11:51 pm
    Merijo: Your latest post provides a nice, concise, little summary of the growth of Christianity. It is too bad you were not with us when we labored over the work of the "fathers". Ambrose, Tertullian, Ireneus, Jerome, etc. We covered in some depth the positions of each father and read and discussed sections of their works. I read Eusebius at that time and commented upon his quotes from Ireneus' writings, an early bishop from Lyon, and one who refers to material written by Papias. Papias you will recall wrote about folks who said they knew John of the Fourth Gospel.

    May I suggest you visit the earlier postings in this volume. It will give you a better understanding of the material we have covered. That will help you get up to speed.

    One aspect you may wish to consider is the separation of the things Jesus said during his lifetime from the things that were added after his death. This is not a trivial exercise. "Q" is a scholarly document which attempts to do just that. You might also wish to consider Jesus' orientation during his life time. Jesus was a Jewish rabbi who responded to Jewish problems. His comments should be taken in a Jewish context not a Christian context. Put yourself in the period and then try to understand what Jesus was trying to say.

    Justin
    November 14, 2005 - 12:07 am
    Post 780, the last on Durant is 42 postings back. We were discussing the loyalty of Christian traders. These are the chaps who made money, piles of it, selling arms and ammo, food stuffs and camping supplies to the Saracens as well as to the invading knights. The Popes of the period denounced those who sold to the Saracens. I suppose he excommunicatd them. But true to their calling, the traders from all over Europe supplied the Saracens with the matrials of war and took home the profits. If they paid a tithe to the Church I suppose the Papacy made a little on the trade.

    Scrawler
    November 14, 2005 - 11:59 am
    I was watching "The Virgin Queen" on PBS about Queen Elizabeth. In one scene the program showed Protestants being burned at the stake. It showed several children watching wide-eyed. When one small child tried to look away, her mother forced her to look at the men being burnt at the stake and then shook her fist at the men. How awful this would be to witness a human being being tortured like that. This is a two part series with the second part coming next Sunday.

    MeriJo
    November 14, 2005 - 12:32 pm
    Justin:

    Thank you for your posts.

    Jesus may have been called "Teacher" (Rabbi) but he did not elaborate on Jewish thought. He brought a different message which was heard at the time and accepted by many and rejected by many.

    It may be that he was Jewish in heritage, but that was part of the prophecy of the Old Testament - that a Redeemer would be sent to the Jews. In that became the beginning of Christian thought.

    As for the Doctors of the Church, Tertullian and Origen were problematic - one wanted to force a military rule and the other confused what he knew and mutilated himself. Both had some good thoughts in other areas which were added to their attributed works.

    Mostly, those who were Saints developed the information later attributed to Christian thought.

    I researched the Fathers of the Church-some of whom are designated as Doctors and I found Papias. I think it is important to note that these writings are just that - part of the early history and not dogma. The Church's scholars are constantly involved in research in order to clarify some early points that have appeared.

    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/

    As for "Q" : It is from a German source:

    Q, or Cod. Guelferbytanus B (fifth century; Wolfenbüttel), contains Gosp.

    Q was found written on a vellum unicel. Fragments of Gospels. I am guessing that "Cod" is the abbreviation for "Codex."

    I had read of "Q" as a source in the preface of the St. Joseph's Bible, but it had been loaned to me, and I no longer have it. My own Bible, The New American Bible, does not refer to "Q" by name. Both Bibles are Roman Catholic. The presence of "B" indicates that "Q" is a valid source. "B" refers to Vatican-approval.

    I haven't looked back over what was discussed here about the Doctors of the Church, but I must say that if they were studied "in depth" as you wrote, you would still be in the discussion. (See my link.)

    Justin: As long as you persist in the supposition that all was done inappropriately by all the Papacy during medieval times, it is going to be impossible for me to explain that individual actions resulted in the abuses.

    This was the climate of the Middle Ages - Christendom was just that, a temporal power as well as a spiritual power. Good clergy did good things and bad clergy did bad things - all in the name of the Church which is the faithful. Also, it is important to consider what was known. Most everyone thought the world was flat. Most everyone could not read. Hygiene was primitive for the populace, and food needed to be grown or raised. Many small steps toward improved civilization were being taken, but always with the stumbling blocks of wrongdoing in their path.

    It is so today - that is just the way the world works.

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    November 14, 2005 - 01:50 pm
    MeriJo, As most of us will say I appreciate the information you are posting, please do not be discouraged. I am learning with every post even when some must be sifted to reveal the fine gold hidden inside. You explained very well in the Paragraph starting with: "This was the climate of the Middle Ages -"

    Justin
    November 14, 2005 - 02:11 pm
    Merijo: "Studied in depth" may be streching things a little. Durant presented the heart of the material and some of us pushed beyond that. Quite obviously, all early writing is not dogma. I am sure you understand that as do we all.

    It is hard to grasp why you think it is impossible to attribute abuses to individual actions. I also don't know why you think I support the supposition that all was done inappropriately by the Medieval Papacy. It is certainly so that much was done inappropriatly by Popes in this period but that does not mean they were not well meaning people nor that every morning they awakened saying " What can I do today that future historians will find inappropriate." Clearly, most Popes were very much concerned with the problem of advancing the role of Christianity in the world.

    Q is a hypothetical document. No copy of it has ever been found.

    Justin
    November 14, 2005 - 02:50 pm
    Merijo: While Q is a hypothtical document and no copies have ever been found there is one confirming portion of the Dead Sea scrolls that suggests that Q existed. Some confirmation comes from the Gospel according to Thomas which is very much like that hypothesized for Q.

    Rich7
    November 14, 2005 - 04:57 pm
    http://www.religioustolerance.org/gosp_q.htm

    If I understand it correctly "Q" was written by individuals who lived in Christ's time, possibly even eyewitnesses to his ministry.

    If such a document existed, there is the implication that Jesus was a rabbi and a preacher, and later writers of the gospels, who never knew Jesus, superimposed over the story found in "Q" a number of concepts taken from other religions and superstitions such as the virgin birth, heaven, hell, speaking in tongues,clergy, the resurrection, and miracles.

    Rich

    MeriJo
    November 14, 2005 - 05:06 pm
    Justin:

    I guess I am reading more into your posts than you say.

    I am put off by your reference to money finding its way into the Papacy in a way that suggests that it should not be receiving money.

    Especially, in the days when the Pope owned lands and functioned as the head of the Papal States, it no doubt received money - hopefully, from taxes and sales of product from the lands.

    Now, since 1929 and the Lateran Treaty, the Pope owns no lands other than the small acreage for the Vatican.

    Most ministers, preachers and priests of various churches rely on the charity of their followers for money - subsistence, charity, educational facilities and hospitals their faith may help support.

    The resource I found for "Q", I cannot find again although it was in the Catholic Encyclopedia, as are the excerpts below.

    In these portions, the First and the Third Evangelists depend neither on Mark nor on each other; they must have followed the Logia, a document now denoted by "Q". When Eusebius (loc. cit.) copied the words of Papias that "Matthew composed the Logia in Hebrew [Aramaic], and each one interpreted them as he was able", he probably understood them as referring to our First Gospel. But the critics insist that Papias must have understood his words as denoting a collection of the "Sayings of Jesus", or the Logia (Q)

    The Logia or the document "Q"of the critics, rests therefore on no historical authority, but only on critical induction.

    There were many such fragments during early Christianity which helped put together a beginning history of the movement. Over the years these were either clarified, proved or discounted. As you say, it was hypothetical and in detailed explanations, a reference to "Q" has found its way into the prefaces of Bibles.

    MeriJo
    November 14, 2005 - 05:09 pm
    I made an earlier reference to the book "Longitude" but I misspelled the author's name. It is Dava Sobel. Dava Sobel also wrote "Galileo's Daughter". Both are very good histories of these times.

    mabel1015j
    November 14, 2005 - 05:35 pm
    has a lot of reference to Jesus as a Jew and a rabbi and the implications in his life and teachings of those roles. You may want to get in that discussion on the 1st of December......jean

    MeriJo
    November 14, 2005 - 05:44 pm
    Rich 7:

    Oh dear! I think we are heading into a religious discussion here.

    May I just say a little about your suppositions - each of the things you mentioned in your post went through years of authentication in Rome, most likely in the Office if the Magesterium, which oversees all doctrine that is offered as being authentic by the Church.

    Actually, the Scripture writers didn't superimpose any of those events, but wrote them based on authority and the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that they be correctly recorded, and in some instances, as witnesses - Matthew and John were Jesus' apostles, and would have known him personally.

    It is possible that John was known by some later religious writers and teachers. He was the youngest of the apostles and the only one who was not martyred. He lived into his nineties on the island of Patmos (Greece) where he is said to have written Revelation. 1:9.

    St. Jerome compiled in 325 AD the first translation into Latin of the Bible. Before then there were Greek and Aramaic writings which were respected as authentic, but were not in a somewhat chronological order.

    Catholics, respect and use the Bible these days as being supportive of its beliefs, but in actuality, Catholics rely on tradition and history to support its dogma and its doctrine as well.

    Rich7
    November 14, 2005 - 06:16 pm
    Hi Merijo. Thanks for acknowledging my input. I'm just an amateur in this area, and am flattered to even find my posting on the subject appearing between the knowledgeable and articulate Merijo and Justin.

    Like most of us, I want to know if Christ ever really existed and if all the "magic" attributed to him by others writing later was real.

    It's exciting for me to discover, just today, that such a document such as "Q" might have even existed.

    Now, as to this Office of Magesterium that the Vatican set up to verify the authenticity of things contrary to church dogma. Are you surprised that they came to the conclusion that everything they've been telling us to believe all these years is just fine?

    Sort of a "Just accept what we tell you, and don't bother your little minds with what others claim they may be learning about the roots of our institution."

    The first two imperatives of all bureaucracies are 1:Self preservation, and 2:Self preservation.

    My first college degree was in Physics, and my instincts as a result of that early training are to observe,question and test; observe, question and test. I'm naturally suspicious of any institution that tells me not to question and test, just accept.

    Rich

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 14, 2005 - 06:55 pm
    My dial tone just came back after being out for 24 hours so I had to catch up on your postings. Will see you folks tomorrow morning.

    Robby

    Justin
    November 14, 2005 - 07:41 pm
    Merijo: There is much confusion about which John is which but if you or anyone in the Vatican thinks the same man wrote the Fourth gospel and Revelation I will personally tell him or her to find some other gullible victim. That is nonsense.

    If you rely on what you find on the internet to inform you without reading original documents I am afraid you will be misled.

    Jan
    November 14, 2005 - 09:22 pm
    Rich if you were wanting to know about Jesus's early life watch out for a Documentary called The Real Family Of Jesus. Jewish and Biblical Historians and a Genealogist try to find details of his early life. Apparently he was one of 7 children, 2 halfbrothers and 2 halfsisters from Joseph's first marriage and 2 brothers from Joseph's marriage to Mary. He came from a big extended family that was a huge help in his cause, both before and after his death, However, the family was airbrushed out in history because it didn't suit the virgin birth image etc.

    I thought the most fascinating part was the recreation of a face for Jesus. A family who had lived continuously in the region since the 1st Century were filmed and their faces blended into a composite face to approximate someone from that time.(I feel another element was thrown in, but my memory fails me on that one.) I liked the face, which was open and rounded and healthy, not the mournful, emaciated one we're always shown. I think I would have liked that man, and Mary too, she resembled a sturdy Iraqui girl in the Doco.

    Justin
    November 14, 2005 - 10:01 pm
    Rich: Most scholars today think that Q was written about 50 CE. Pauls letters were also written in the 50's. Mark wrote during the 70's. The work of Matthew and Luke came later. The Q hypothesis arises because Matthew and Luke give us about 200 verses that do not appear in Mark. The rest of those gospels are straight out of Mark.It is reasoned that Luke and Matthew used the same source for the 200 odd verses and that source is Q. I did not mention it to Merijo but Eusebius says there were many documents around at that time containing the Sayings of Jesus. They may have all been copies of Q. or Q was a copy of one of those books of sayings.

    Justin
    November 14, 2005 - 10:40 pm
    Rich: All the concepts you mention- virgin births,heaven, hell, tongues, clergy,and resurection, were popular ideas at the time. They were rooted the mystery religions of Greece and Rome. Faith healing and exorcism were also popular notions.

    The Vatican would have one think that the pronouncements of Jesus were directed to a new religion but scholarship today leans toward Jesus the Jew reacting to Jewish problems of the day. Christianity was not invented until after Jesus' death and then it evolved beginning with the Letters of Paul and moving through various synods and councils where the design of the religion was formed.

    3kings
    November 15, 2005 - 12:50 am
    <JUSTIN, I wonder where you got the notion that Christianity was not a body of parables, sayings, and events in the life of one man called Christ ? Christ was a teacher and Philosopher, who taught his followers an entirely new idea for his time.

    He supplanted the Jewish idea of a God of vengeance and punishment, with that of a God of love and forgiveness. These ideas were those of Christ. The notion of forming a Church, and enriching himself and his close friends with money from the faithful, was that of Paul.

    I have read words from you to the effect that Paul was the founder of Christianity. Nothing could be further from the truth, I think.

    To put it another way, If Christ was not the founder and initiator of Christianity, then it must have been someone else, with the same name. ++ Trevor

    Jan Sand
    November 15, 2005 - 03:05 am
    If Paul was the originator of Christianity that would justify the behavior of the Christian church through the ages. It is obviously appauling.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 15, 2005 - 03:13 am
    As indicated in the GREEN quotes in the Heading, some time ago we moved into the "Economic Revolution." A number of posts regarding that subtopic were presented, the last one being Post 780. However, that subtopic appears to be ignored and the majority of the last 60 posts related to Durant are on the topic of religion rather than on the economy of that time.

    As this seems to be your wish, I will hold off on continuing Durant's words while your comments about religion continue.

    Robby

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    November 15, 2005 - 06:18 am
    Oh! thank you Robby, I love to talk about the economy, it is my favorite subject after, well you know what I mean.

    When I looked at your map of Italy, I suddenly wanted to know the ORIGINS OF THE WORD MAFIA because Sicily is in the middle of the Mediterranean sea, it would be the best place for seekers of fortunes to settle there, at least if not to establish residence then to establish their headquarters.

    When we look at the fleet of millions of pleasure boats berthing all around the Medeterranean sea you have to admit that this is where the Lords of the world's biggest fortunes spend their leasure hours.

    I have seen the port of Monaco where private boats are anchored that rival in size with the Titanic. Apartment buildings in this tax free Principality compete in size with the mountains surrounding it where pedestrians are like tiny ants crawling on the few narrow streets bordered by shops where rivers of precious stones and tons of precious gold are displayed.

    If you go in the washroom at Montecarlo, you are surrounded by marble decor of exquisite color and the faucets there look like pure gold.

    Geography always fascinated me. I think it is one of the most important element when we look civilization in general and I am very happy that I live in Canada where our climate is a shield against dangerous foes.

    Hats
    November 15, 2005 - 06:23 am
    Eloise,

    Your description of Monaco makes me see its beauty and realize its rich economy. I know very little about geography. I feel it's such an important subject. Without an understanding of geography a person can hardly understand the economics of a country. The economics of a country usually explains the reason for warfare too.

    MeriJo
    November 15, 2005 - 01:00 pm
    I was in Monaco and it is all that Eloise says it is. One trip I did walk about those streets and on another I rode by on the train right along the Riviera.

    Justin
    November 15, 2005 - 01:30 pm
    Sorry Robby; You are wrong. The last on topic post is 802 when Bubble thanked me for identifying Pythagorus' birth place. It was Crotone- a part of Durant's last quotation.

    You are right,however,in bringing us back to economic issues.

    The Truce and the Peace of God served to open the roads of Europe to commerce. It brought an end to prohibitive tolls on the rivers and gave new life to those who lived along the rivers. It was a first step toward Globalization. We are trying to do that today in the world. It's a painful process for some but there are overall benefits to society for engaging in free trade.

    Justin
    November 15, 2005 - 01:35 pm
    Trevor: Stay tuned. There will be plenty of time to address the issues you raise before the volume on the Age of Faith is complete.

    MeriJo
    November 15, 2005 - 02:19 pm
    Rich7:

    One of the things about Christianity and included in the Roman Catholic Church that I have not explained is that there were events that occurred in Christ's life that are called Mysteries. These are unexplainable in human terms. Catholics have no trouble accepting the Nativity of Jesus (virgin birth) nor the Resurrection. Both were prophesied in the Old Testament.

    We learn these mysteries to be supernatural in essence, and since they are in connection with God, our Creator, there is no need to take the thing apart bit by bit. They are reasonable in human terms. Catholics believe that Jesus is God, the Son, and it would have been impossible for him to have assumed humanity without the intercession of God, the Holy Spirit. At the Annunciation when the angel told Mary she was to be the Mother of God, she answered, "Be it done to me according to Thy Word." As for the Resurrection, Christianity would never have been founded without that event. We know that Christ remained on earth for forty days after the Resurrection, teaching the Apostles and Disciples.

    The Magesterium in Rome is the office that overlooks the teachings of the Church, the appropriateness of certain rituals, and the liturgy. It is not a secret entity, but an open office.( Latin, "Magester" means "teacher." "ium" means "of the" (genitive), hence, "Place of the Teacher.) Some of these excerpts of old are written in an archaic language and not readily understood by all. That is why, the Bible, for example, cannot be read literally completely. It is written in several different forms of language - anagogical, allegorical, literal, spiritual and moral sense of language.

    Jesus brought a new message to the world. It lifted the fear of the Old Testament God and put in its place the emphasis of God's Love. God the Father no longer spoke through the Prophets of the Old Testament, Jesus had ascended into heaven and had said that he would be with the world all days even to the end of time, and had said he would send the Holy Spirit, also God, to be with us. This happened on Pentecost.

    Mentioning these mysteries may be very confusing, but they are part of the body of faith Catholics believe.

    Physics can never be compared to a spiritual belief. Physics requires answers. Belief requires faith.

    Rich7
    November 15, 2005 - 02:26 pm
    MeriJo,

    Thank you.

    Seriously, your faith is an inspiration.

    Rich

    Traude S
    November 15, 2005 - 04:17 pm
    MeriJo,

    with respect, the spelling of the Latin word is magisterium; the gender is neutral and it is the nominative, not the genitive, case.

    May I follow up on your mention of Dava Sobel's book : "Galileo's Daughter: A Historical Memoir of Science, Faith and Love" (2000)". It is an extraordinary book, which was discussed it in B&L in June of 2002. The discussion was archived.

    RICH, if I may be so bold, I think you as a physicist would find this book and the many b/w illustrations especially riveting. It is a wonderful exposition not only of the historical events but of how Galileo, step by step over time, came to believe in the truth of Copernicus' theory that the earth orbits the sun (and not vice versa).
    Inevitably he ran afoul of the Church's theological teaching that the SUN orbits the earth, was accused of heresy by the Holy Office of the Inquisition in Rome and put on trial. Even though he contritely (perhaps in desperation ?) disawoved his beliefs, he was threatened with excommunication, banned to Siena and later kept under house arrest in Florence.

    (In those days the Italian city states, i.e. Pisa, Florence, Siena, Venice, Rome and others, were rivals and often fought battles with each other; moreover, some sided with the popes, some with the emperors.)

    It took Church authorities several centuries before they acknowledged that it had been an error and an injustice to condemn and silence a brilliant man, who was proven right.

    Galileo never married but fathered three children with a Venetian woman: a son, Vincenzio, and two daughters, Virginia and Livia. It was the boy (of course) who was given the chance of an education. The girls were deemed unfit for marriage because of their illegitimacy and sent to a convent at the tender age of about 10. Virginia became Suor Maria Celeste (Celeste, what a fitting name!), and 124 letters she wrote to her father, whom she addressed as "Sire", have survived.

    Dava Sobel undertook the enormous task of translating those letters into English, the first to do so. They appear in this book, some in excerpts, and give a vivid impression of what life was like then and of the father-daughter relationship. Alas, we have no counter balance : Galileo's letters to his daughter have not come down to posterity; they are believed to have been destroyed by the convent authorities after the death of Suor Maria Celeste at the age (of only) 33.

    ROBBY, forgive me for digressing; but I sincerely believe that sometimes further information of this kind can be useful.

    MeriJo, allow me to say that Anglicans (Episcopalians in this country) also believe in the Trinity. That is not the exclusive province of Roman Catholics.

    One more thing, if I may : the Catholic Church has always held Catholics tightly to the "straight and narrow", among other things by means of the Index of Forbidden Books, (Index for short) = index librorum prohibitorum , a list of books Roman Catholics are forbidden by Church authority to read without special permission, unless they have been expurgated.
    I don't know whether the rules are applied as stringently now as they were when I grew up (in the Rhineland where Catholics predominate, as they do in Bavaria. My parents were both Lutheran, however, and I was baptized in that faith.)

    Rich7
    November 15, 2005 - 04:34 pm
    Traude,

    Thank you for making me a physicist. I mentioned that my first degree was in Physics, but I later went on to get an MBA, and turned crassly commercial.

    I will, however, take your recommendation and read the book about Galileo. If you remember, you recommended the book about the Paul Theroux / V.S. Naipal feud to me and I thoroughly enjoyed it, being, like you, a Theroux fan.

    Rich

    Justin
    November 15, 2005 - 04:35 pm
    Merijo: Your description of the elements of faith is absolutely beautiful and your message is well put. We, however, are dealing in this discussion, not with faith but with history. That is a very different thing. The historian can not, as the physicist can not, accept explanations of phenomena as "mysteries". The task becomes difficult because those of faith wish to participate with the historian in an examination of events using the ground rules of religion and not the ground rules of the historian. The two mix as oil and water and lead to discension.

    Your faith is a beautiful thing and no one in this discussion is challenging that or would challenge that. But at the same time, if one is to faithful to a craft, one must examine, test, and question again and again in order to understand the nature of historical events.

    The same problem faces the biological scientist who tries to explain the history of man while faced with opposition by the evangelical advocates of Genesis.

    There is room for both in this discussion but room must be made without disturbing the rules of historical observation.

    Traude S
    November 15, 2005 - 04:44 pm
    Thank you, RICH, I apologize for phrasing this inaccurately. Mea culpa.
    And thank you, JUSTIN. You are absolutely right and have articulated it succinctly.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 15, 2005 - 04:58 pm
    I see that the interest in discussing religion is still very strong so I will continue to hold off before returning to the GREEN quotes in the Heading

    Robby

    MeriJo
    November 15, 2005 - 06:26 pm
    Traude:

    Thank you very much for the correction. It has been many a year since I studied Latin (1941) and these days I seldom get past the second declension - although I studied Latin for six years. It was the suffix "ium" that sent me to the genitive, and yes, I did spell it wrong. I gave away all my Latin books except for the Confessions of St. Augustine, even Ovid and Plautus - Now, why did I do that?

    Yes, Traude, I understand the Episcopal Church has most of the same teachings as Catholics.

    I think the Index has been eliminated altogether. I don't know. But if Anthony Greeley's novels are examples of Catholic novels, I would say I guessed right. The only two books I remember as being on the Index were Machiavelli's "Prince" and Boccaccio's "Decameron".

    Traude: I spent most of my teaching career (in public school system) with Scott, Foresman type books about "Dick and Jane and Spot". Just taught basic things in the parish's religious education classes with 6th graders after school as a volunteer.

    Justin
    November 15, 2005 - 06:50 pm
    Rich: I read Dava Sobel's work on Galileo and his Daughter a few years back in a prepublication edition. I liked it very much then and can recommend it highly to you. The tale is heart rending. The threat of torture by the Holy Office looms on many pages. The Vatican did not back away from it's position until very recent years. These people are too often guilty of denying the words of Jesus- "do unto ohers etc."

    Jan Sand
    November 15, 2005 - 08:23 pm
    Since the subject has arisen it should be pointed out that there is a central faith in science. That faith consists of the belief that the universe can be comprehended by the rational mind and that its operations are decipherable. Religious faith basically accepts that there are phenomena and events that have no rational explanation and must be attributable to a superior being whose motivations are assumed beneficial but cannot be dissected and thoroughly understood. This is the nexus of the problem between science and religion.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 16, 2005 - 03:11 am
    Any one ready to move onward with "The Progress of Industry," "Money," "The Communes," etc.?

    We are now on Page 617 of the volume and a few days ago had started Durant's section entitled "The Economic Revolution."

    Robby

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    November 16, 2005 - 07:26 am
    There are political revolutions, but an economic revolution? lets see what that is in "The Age of Faith". Did the Crusades trigger it to advance civilization as wars usually do?

    Malryn
    November 16, 2005 - 08:09 am

    People do love to rant and rave about Religion, don't they? Not that we do, of course.

    I was thinking Ecibinucs is part of the reason why Religion came into being. Humans can be acquisitive and greedy. "I'm taking what you've got. If you lift a finger to try and stop me, I'll punch out all your lights."

    The guy who had progressed to a degree of reason said, "Here. I'll help you get down on all four so you can take a cool drink from this stream. Then we'll talk about what the Higher Power would like us to do."

    I moved into my cozy little home in the woods on a Pennsylvania mountain on Monday.

    I enter the building on ground level, and because of the hill, the windows in the back of my place are on the second floor. My son exclaimed about the view from my windows. "Madgie," he said. (My kids call me by names that aren't my own.) "Madge,' he said excitedly, "that white building over there is the Casino Theater, game room and restaurant!" I found out later that night that a three minute drive will bring me to a Walmart Super Store and a KMart,

    Some shrewd business people looked at this pristine and pure mountain top and decided to go Economic. Though the population of this town is only 2500 people, somebody looked around and said, "There are woods and lakes and waterfalls in the summer and a lot of snow for skiing in the winter. We've got ourselves an Economic gem!" For sure, there aren't many All American Amenities any vacationer would miss.

    So, instead of climbing this mounntain to find peace of mind and a dose of Religion, it's the same old stuff all over again.

    Well, we have an idea what Economics is like in our time. How about taking a look at what was going on economically then?

    MAL

    MeriJo
    November 16, 2005 - 08:36 am
    Rich7:

    Your #849:

    Traude S
    November 16, 2005 - 12:52 pm
    MeriJo, in my haste I used the wrong adjective in # 850: it is "neuter" not "neutral", as I mistakenly said, and I apologize.

    We could discuss matters of faith ad infinitum. But I also am ready for the Economic Revolution, which I have not heard described thusly.

    MeriJo
    November 16, 2005 - 02:17 pm
    In reading the excerpt on economic revolution, it can be seen that as Crusades went abroad and some of the crusaders returned, ideas, products, innovations and notions of accelerated trade returned, too.

    In Europe during the 12th and 13th centuries AD, power was divided between the secular barons and the ecclesiastical dignitaries such as bishops and abbots. Cathedrals and monastic churches testified to the strength of religious authority. . . . The wealth needed to build the cathedrals of western Europe came largely from agriculture, although trade and manufacturing were on the rise and walled towns of prosperous merchant communities were well-established in many regions. In southern Europe, commerce played a more prominent role, with Italian cities such as Pisa and Venice growing immensely rich and powerful on the profits of trade with the Middle East. Smithsonian Timelines

    I recall being in Lucca - a walled city in Tuscany. Its walls were overgrown with vines and other vegetation. I was surprised because my mother who had lived in Lucca had never mentioned the wall. Inside the city the streets - more like paths - were very narrow. It is a very, very old city - the buildings looked so ancient and worn - the church I saw of white crumbly stone looked so old it looked as though it would soon crumble away.

    http://www.realitaly.com/lucca/snapshot.html

    Hats
    November 16, 2005 - 02:27 pm
    If so much money was spent to build chathedrals, how did the peasants or middle class fare?

    Malryn
    November 16, 2005 - 02:47 pm

    The same way people in ghettos, living in the shadow of the gloriously rich who live in the Trump and No Trump Towers live, HATS. Hardly at all.

    Mal

    Hats
    November 16, 2005 - 02:55 pm
    Mal,

    You've got that right! Not much of life changes, does it?

    winsum
    November 16, 2005 - 03:20 pm
    About economics today and Mal's little paradise in the woods. Walmart was just attacked by the MOVE ON organization which had thousands of people through out the country viewing a program on how walmart operates probably in the same way as in the time's we're examining. They are not a union shop and go to great lengths to avoid becoming one an their emplyees often non english speaking and paid minimum wages with never any overtime,are abused.

    But the worst part is that when they come into an area, the small business fold and as soon as their arrangement with the city fathers as to how much goes to the city like maybe five years is up they MOVE ON leaving massive unemployment and failed small busineses behind. Without a tax base, the city dies.



    My daughter who saw the special at the library, one of th places in the country where is was shown, just reviewed it for me. This was in New York but the viewing was available all over the country thanks to MOVE ON.

    There were trade organizations then weren't there, but there was no political clout to them as in todays unions. . .claire

    MeriJo
    November 16, 2005 - 03:21 pm
    It is not a given that just because there is wealth brought to a community that the people are poor. On the contrary, one thing about Italians, especially Tuscans, those not of the wealthy class, is that they always fare well with regard to food and shelter, and usually have some money put away in a hidden place in the house.

    Many, probably had skills that were valuable in the building of the cathedrals and the large villas. These were paid.

    The custom of apprenticeship began early in Europe. In Italy, young people would apprentice to tailors, ornamental ironworkers, bakers, dressmakers, cobblers, builders - and more.

    There was country surrounding the towns and the townspeople would go out to work the fields from their homes. There was plenty to eat as a rule. Many had gardens.

    However, a ship returned to Genoa in the 1300's infected with the bubonic plague and the epidemics from this plague occurred for the next 300 years off and on. I don't know when it was first learned that rats brought the infected fleas to shore from the ship, but the plague was in epidemic proportions when it would strike an area.

    Curiously, it was with the presence of the plague, a threat, that the Renaissance took place.

    Hats
    November 16, 2005 - 03:35 pm
    Merijo,

    That's interesting. It seems to me the Bubonic Plague would have hindered the Renaissance. Then again, the Depression made Hollywood richer because people needed to forget their troubles. Movies served a purpose and the money rolled in.

    MeriJo
    November 16, 2005 - 04:21 pm
    This was going on for quite a few years: Prosperous farmers, who paid taxes in coin to the government, were the backbone of the Byzantine Empire (AD 330-1453.) The major consideration in evaluating wealth and taxation was the capacity to plow, and individual farmers were assessed differently according to whether they owned a pair of plow oxen, a single ox, or none at all. The simple scratch plow was still widely used in the Byzantine Empire, since not turning the soil helped to preserve moisture levels. Smithsonian Timelines

    The area of Italy found in the "ankle" and "instep" of the Italian "boot" called Basilicata and/or Lucania was part of the Byzantine Empire. It is a generally arid and mountainous area with little land free for farming. I was there to visit my father's cute little medieval town. The Byzantine rulers used this area primarily for sport - for hunting. Its claim to fame is that the poet, Horace, was born there.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 16, 2005 - 04:59 pm
    "France grew rich on her rivers, liquid strands of unifying trade.

    "The Rhone, Garonne, Loire, Saone, Seine, Oise, and Moselle fructified her commerce as well as her fields.

    "Britain could not yet rival her. But the Cinque (Five) Ports on the Channel welcomed foreign ships and goods.

    "The Thames at London was already in the twelfth century bordered with a continuous line of docks where exports of cloth, wool, and tin paid for spices from Arabia, silks from China, furs from Russia, and wines from France.

    "Busier still -- busier than any other northern port -- was Bruges, commercial capital and outlet of a Flanders rich in both agriculture and industry. There, as in Venice and Genoa, the east-west crossed the north-south axis of European trade.

    "Situated near the North Sea coast opposite England, it imported English wool to be woven by Flemish or French looms. Sufficiently inland to give safe harbor, it attracted the fleets of Genoa, Venice, and western France, and allowed them to reallocate their wares along a hundred routes to minor ports.

    "As ocean transport bcame safe and cheaper, overland commerce declined and Bruges succeeded to the Champagne fairs as the northern focus of European trade. Heavy river traffic on the Meuse, the Scheldt, and the Rhine brought to Bruges the goods of western Germany and eastern France for export to Russia, Scandinavia, England, and Spain.

    "Other towns were nourished by the river trade -- Valenciennes, Camabrai, Tournai, Ghent, and Atnwerp on the Scheldt. Dinant, Liege and Maestricht on the Meuse."

    Your comments, please?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 16, 2005 - 05:05 pm
    Click HERE for map of rivers in Europe.

    Robby

    MeriJo
    November 16, 2005 - 05:08 pm
    Hats:

    Interestingly enough, it didn't. It may have slowed up activity in some areas, and it may not have been as extensive in others.

    However, with the increase of trade to foreign lands, there was also an increase in disease. This was probably an example of some people having stronger immune systems. Also, there was an improvement in health care and the appearance of herbal medicines.

    During the Middle Ages medical practitioners relied on the writings of Greek and Roman physicians. Herbal remedies were prepared by physicians . . . and surgery was also occasionally performed. By the 13th century AD, autopsies were undertaken on unsuccessfully treated patients in an attempt to improve medical knowledge. Smithsonian Timelines

    I think in just about every area there were little steps of improvement being made and recorded.

    In spite of it all this was still a very productive period in history.

    I checked an Italian cookbook, I have that also records the history of food in Italy during this period. Very early in the Middle Ages, the poor did have, as you thought - rather meager and simple food.

    The following relates what was available in ancient Rome: The diet of ancient Rome was very simple and plain... based on bread of various kinds - they ate an abundance of legumes: beans, lentils and lupini beans.. . most common leafy vegetables were various types of cabbage, lettuce, beet and turnips and the most popular fruits were figs, pears, prunes and grapes. Meat was almost absent from the tables of the poorest households, but it was served often at the tables of the rich, and in a variety of forms: pork, beef, deer, wild donkey, dormouse, kid. The ideal of good eating is made clear in a passage from the "Satire" of Juvenal, a Latin poet of the late first century AD: "From the countryside of Tivoli we will get a fat kid, the tenderest of the herd. Then there will be mountain asparagus . . . large eggs, still warm. And then bunches of grapes. . . pears from Segni. . . apples wonderfully pure of fragrance.""Italy, The Beautiful Cookbook", recipes by Lorenza De'Medici, text by Patrizia Passigli.

    However, it was in the passionate Middle Ages that an international cuisine began to take shape. . . This European cuisine was based on the almost standardized recipe books used in the kitchens of the courts and the aristocracy: for the first time local and national boundaries were overcome, at least in the kitchen. Italy - Cookbook

    Justin
    November 16, 2005 - 06:49 pm
    The map of rivers in Europe shows one clearly why commerce was able to reach the interior of the continent. They are numerous and so many are deep watered. In addition, there are many rivers and tributaries that are not shown. In England the Stour is navigable and in Ireland the Livey flows through Dublin but these are not shown on the map.

    The rivers as well as roads supplied the fairs but without the rivers the fairs would not have been possible. Bruges in Belgium was, in the middle ages, a river town. When the river silted up and became unnavigable Bruges ceased to be a great commercial center. We might well call the European economic advance a river economy. World trade flowed to the interior of the continent to make it eventually a dominant commercial center in the world.

    I remember the story of Market Garden and how amazed I was by the number of rivers that had to be crossed to cut off Antwerp in WW11.

    Justin
    November 16, 2005 - 07:00 pm
    The Marne river seems so puny compared to other rivers but its border location made it sufficiently valuable for General Haig in WW1 to spend a million lives to keep the Germans on the other bank. The man was an unimaginative butcher who thought the only way was a frontal way. So the boys dug trenches. I think MacArthur would have found another way in. Oh well. That's another topic.

    Justin
    November 16, 2005 - 07:03 pm
    From the map one can see how vital the Rhine was to Caesar and why his civil engineers constructed pontoon bridges to cross. The Danube on the other hand was a long natural stopping place for the Roman armies.

    Justin
    November 16, 2005 - 07:07 pm
    My wife and I have often talked about doing barge trips on the rivers but we have not yet done that for various reasons. We may be a little old now for the rigors of barge travel. The locks may be an inhibitor. Still, so much of the continent is accessible by river boat.

    Traude S
    November 16, 2005 - 09:43 pm
    JUSTIN, barge trips on the Rivers of Europe, as they are billed, have become a huge seller and are very popular with seniors. Several of my friends have taken them, on the Rhine and on the rivers of France. They told me the locks on the Rhine cruise were no hindrance but an enhancement. All sounded like mini cruises with (passive) viewing and brief stops at selected sight-seeing locations. The cobblestones were a problem for some. One friend was disappointed that no festive occasion was offered at a short stop in Paris (I think) where she could have worn her gown.

    MeriJo, the Italians have always been creative cooks, even in time of war when the daily bread ration was "un etto di pane" = 100 grams per person. Fruit and vegetables, however, were always fresh and available. I fondly remember the incomparable juicy figs. Last year some appeared in the market, briefly, and bore no comparison with what I remember.

    Practically the only meat an "ordinary" person had were rabbits, home-raised, and prepared in many delicious ways.

    Back to the subject : It is not unusual that a period of great calamity is followed by rebirth and a jubilant "flowering", if I may call it that.

    But I'd like to say with due respect, one thing disturbs me, and it is Durant's persistent mention of "Germany", simply because at that time there was no such coherent unit , in the national or economical sense. Yes, the Romans called the part they conquered "Germania" and Tacitus wrote a slim book by that title.

    I am relying not only on my old History Atlas from school but have also found entries to that effect on the web. One of them shows a map of Europe in the time of the plague in the mid thirteen hundreds. In the place of "Germany" it shows "Holy Roman Empire" (in the color brown).

    Could we please trace, and show here for the ake of comparison, how Europe looked and developed nationally in successive centuries ?

    winsum
    November 16, 2005 - 10:03 pm
    i've never been to Europe but can picture it from your writings. . . . claire

    Fifi le Beau
    November 16, 2005 - 10:07 pm
    Traude, here is a map of the year 1300. Scroll right to see the entire map.

    Europe in 1300 AD

    Fifi

    winsum
    November 16, 2005 - 10:30 pm
    I did a computer doodle yesterday in photoshop that looks a lot like a topigraphical of the mediteranian part of that map 1300. I recognized it immediately. but then it was my art soooooo. . . .

    see it here

    and the detail I speak of

    here Claire

    Justin
    November 16, 2005 - 10:52 pm
    Traude: The map of 1300 labels the section we think of today as German by titling it "States of the German Kingdom." That must include places like Saxony, Prussia, Thuringia, Brabant etc. These as I remember are called independent Duchies. Also from the Roman period, one of Augustus' sons, or maybe Tiberius' sons was named Germanicus. Do you suppose there is a connection?

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 17, 2005 - 03:23 am
    In an earlier part of the volume Durant stated that there was no "Germany" at that time but that he was using the term for easier comprehension.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 17, 2005 - 03:41 am
    "Bruges was the chief western member of the Hanseatic League.

    "To promote international co-operation against external competition -- to arrange congenial association for merchants stationed away from home -- to protect themselves from pirates, highwaymen, fluctuating currencies, defaulting debtors, tax collectors, and feudal tolls -- the commercial towns of northern Europe formed in the twelfth century various alliances which the Germans called hanses -- i.e. unions or guilds.

    "London, Bruges, Ypres, Troyes and twenty other cities formed the "London Hanse.' Lubeck, which had been founded in 1158 as an outpost of German war and trade with Scandinavia, entered into a similar union with Hamburg (1210) and Bruges (1252).

    "Gradually other cities joined -- Danzig, Bremen, Novgorod, Dorpat, Magdeburg, Thurn, Berlin, Visby, Stockholm, Bergen, London. At its height in the fourteenth century the League bound fifty-two towns.

    "It held the mouths of all the great rivers -- Rhine, Weser, Elbe, Oder, Vistula -- that brought the products of Central Europe to the North or Baltic Sea.

    "It controlled the trade of northern Europe from Rouen to Novgorod. For a long time it monopolized the herring fisheries of the Baltic and the trade of the Continent with England. It established courts for the settlemen of disputes among is members, defended its members against law suits from without, and at times waged war as an independent power.

    "It made laws regulating the commercial operations, even the moral conduct, of its member cities and men. It protected its merchants from arbitary legislation, taxes, and fines. It enforced boycotts against offending cities. It punished default, dishonesty, or the purchase of stolen goods.

    "It established a 'factory' or trading post in each member city, kept its merchants under its own German laws, wherever they went, and forbade them to marry foreigners."

    So the power of business is not new. We see today in Africa and other locations corporations "running the show" and standing up against governments.

    Any thoughts regarding Durant's remarks?

    Robby

    Bubble
    November 17, 2005 - 05:19 am
    Views from the canals and the town of Bruges

    http://usera.imagecave.com/sop_bubble/Bruges/

    The making of lace is its best known industry, usually done in the Beginages - retreats very convent-like although the members are not nuns, but women living a similar life without making the same vows.

    Rich7
    November 17, 2005 - 09:03 am
    I've always found the Hanseatic League difficult to understand.

    They started out as a non-political alliance of cities interested in trade with one another. They built lighthouses along trade routes and had their own navy (of sorts) to fight pirates along sea lanes. Somehow they became enmeshed in European politics and even took sides in regional wars.

    Later the League collapsed. I have never found a good explanation why.

    Maybe they got too big for their own good, too involved in politics, and lost sight of their first objective: Free trade.

    Rich

    Traude S
    November 17, 2005 - 09:24 am
    ROBBY, I'm grateful for your # 883 and greatly relieved. The use of "Germany" somehow conveys an inaccurate historical and geographical impression.

    JUSTIN, some of the kingdoms in the brown spot on the map were duchies. The kingdom of Bavaria is shown separately in a different color, proof that a more cohesive Germany was yet to come.

    In the 11th century the Duchy of Brabant was the core of Lower Lorraine ( Nieder-Lothringen); became part of Burgundy in 1406, then part of the Habsburg possessions (by marriage), and eventually divided. North Brabant is a now part of the Netherlands.
    Prussia was not yet "in the picture" at the time we are discussing now.

    CLAIRE, your creative picture is magnificent, a wonderful artistic rendering and still identifiable. Thank you.

    BUBBLE, a great link of Bruges, aka "Brügge". The lace is justly famous. I believe it surpasses that made on the island of Burano.

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    November 17, 2005 - 10:11 am
    Bubble I think too that those pictures of Bruges were so nice, I loved to see you there too. Bruges' architecture is different. I have never been in Belgium, but I have been to Murano and saw women embroider sitting in the sun all dressed in black. Unfortunately embroydery is not in style right now because, I guess, it can be manufactured cheaply and it is no longer rare. Funny that rarity pushes up prices.

    winsum
    November 17, 2005 - 10:58 am
    It's nice to be understood. thank you . . . Claire

    Fifi le Beau
    November 17, 2005 - 11:25 am
    Claire, I liked the painting, and all those maps you've looked at in SOC must have had a subliminal message for you. Thanks for showing it to all of us.

    Fifi

    winsum
    November 17, 2005 - 12:08 pm
    subliminal messages. . .the present economic community uses them all the time and here they are invading my art. . but at least this one comes from a known source. good catch. . .claire

    MeriJo
    November 17, 2005 - 01:20 pm
    Winsum:

    Your painting is reminiscent of Europe. I hope you get to go there some day.

    Justin:

    There are websites for river cruises, and some alma maters offer travel programs that include river cruises. Most travelers are oldsters and the crews do take good care of them.

    I went on a river cruise from St. Petersburg (Leningrad, at the time) on the Neva River that connected to the Svir River to visit Kizhi Island in Lake Onega. There were locks on that cruise and the ship almost came to a standstill as it eased its way through. It was interesting to watch.

    There are some great cruises along the Mississippi River, in the Great Lakes and along the east coast between outer islands and the mainland with stops in Savannah and other cities along the southern coast.

    winsum
    November 17, 2005 - 01:58 pm
    Ocean cruises don't offer much except for food and entertainment. I never was interested but RIVER cruises have vistas. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. . $$$ an issue, but it's interesting. I imagine it's also HUMID and uncomfortable at times. CA is semi-arid. I like it that way. . . ..claire

    Malryn
    November 17, 2005 - 02:14 pm

    BUBBLE, I was in Bruges in the 70's. What struck me about that square where you're sitting in one of the picfures is all the Guild Halls around it.There were women making bobbin lace all around that square when I was there.

    I/m christening the kitchen in my new place. The chicken I'm stewing with all kinds of herbs and vegetables smells so good. Why don't you all come to Mount Pocono and have dinner with me this chilly night?

    Mal

    Malryn
    November 17, 2005 - 02:58 pm

    THE MEDIEVAL TOWN: BRUGES

    Justin
    November 17, 2005 - 06:00 pm
    When the barge moves you better be on board or you are stranded and you go where the barge goes. Those are my principal objections to river travel. When I am in Europe I like to move when I wish to move and to travel where I wish. My wife puts more emphasis on ease of travel. She wants some one to carry and a comfortable known bed at night. It's a good thing we are still in love or travel would be a grumble.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 17, 2005 - 06:06 pm
    "The Hanseatic League was for a century an agency of civilization.

    "It cleared the Baltic and North Seas of pirates -- dredged and straightened waterways -- chartered currents and tides -- marked off channels -- built lighthouses, ports, and canals -- established and codified maritime law -- and in general substituted order for chaos in northern European trade.

    "By organizing the mercantile class into powerful associations, it protected the Bourgeoisie against the barons, and promoted the liberation of cities from feudal control. It sued the king of France of League goods ruined by his troops and forced the king of England to pay for Masses to redeem from purgatory the souls of Hanseatic merchants drowned by Englishmen.

    "It spread German commerce, language, and culture eastwrd into Prussia, Livonia, and Estonia, and made great cities of Konigsberg, Libau, Memel, and Riga. It controlled the prices and qualities of goods traded in by its members and established such a reputation for integrity that the name Easterlings (Men from the East), which the English gave them, was adopted by the English as meaning sterling worth, and was in this form attached to silver or pound as meaning trustworthy or real.

    "But in time the Hanse became an oppressor as well as a defender.

    "It limited too tyrannically the independence of its constituents, forced cities into memberships by boycotts or violence, fought its competitors by fair means of foul.

    "It was not above hiring pirates to injure a rival's trade. It organized its own armies and set itself up as a state within many states. It did what it could to oppress and suppress the artisan class from which it derived its wares. All laborers, and many others, came to fear and hate it as the most powerful of all monopolies ever engaged in the restraint of trade.

    "When the workers of England revolted in 1381, they pursued all the Hanseatics even into church sancturaries and murdered all those who could not say "bread and cheese' with a pure English accent."

    Excuse my repetition but........... "class revolt" again?

    Robby

    Justin
    November 17, 2005 - 06:11 pm
    The wool trade in this Medieval period functioned because the Hanseatic League kept the seas swept of pirates. The Sheep were raised and sheared in England. The raw wool was shipped to Bruges and other European ports where it was carded and spun into cloth. The cloth was returned to England and to other ports where garments were made. The Netherlands as well as Flanders was devoted to cloth manufacture. Italy contributed dyers. As I recall from Sister Moon Brother Sun, the family of St. Francis of Assisi was in the dyeing business.

    Fifi le Beau
    November 17, 2005 - 09:20 pm
    Durant writes......

    "When the workers of England revolted in 1381, they pursued all the Hanseatics even into church sancturaries and murdered all those who could not say "bread and cheese' with a pure English accent."

    This passage has touched my funny bone and I have been laughing since I read it. The line up first and then the test. If you were not very good at languages or didn't have an ear for accents, running would be the next option.

    The words 'bread and cheese' were I'm sure practiced for perfect elocution after a few lessons from the masses. This would have made a good Monty Python skit, and I'm still laughing just thinking about it.

    Fifi

    Jan Sand
    November 17, 2005 - 11:23 pm
    It is interesting to note that the word "shibboleth" was used by Gileadites to reveal Ephraimites for their difficulties in pronunciation. To find it amusing that the problems of pronunciation can produce slaughter strikes me as a rather strange sense of humor.

    Bubble
    November 18, 2005 - 03:33 am
    Most interesting is the meaning acquired by the word "shibboleth" in English:

    1. a peculiarity of pronunciation, behavior, mode of dress, etc., that distinguishes a particular class or set of persons.

    2. a slogan; catchword.

    3. a common saying or belief with little current meaning or truth.

    [< Heb shibboleth lit., freshet, a word used by the Gileadites as a test to detect the fleeing Ephraimites, who could not pronounce the sound sh (Judges 12:4–6)]

    The first meaning in Hebrew is "ear of corn" or the "head" of cereals. That is the only one I knew. Languages are so rich.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 18, 2005 - 04:02 am
    I would guess that each language has its own specific combination of consonants or vowels that foreigners find difficult to pronounce.

    Many non-English people find it hard to pronounce "th."

    Robby

    Bubble
    November 18, 2005 - 04:16 am
    Ha ha ha Robby, that "TH" was my bane when I was in college in UK.I lost points in orals because of it.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 18, 2005 - 05:26 am
    "About 1160 the Hanse seized the Swedish island of Gotland and developed Visby as a base and bastion for the Baltic trade.

    "Decade by decade it extended its control over the commerce and politics of Denmark, Poland, Norway, Sweden, Finland and Russia. In thirteenth-century Russia, reported Adam of Bremen, Hanseatic merchants 'are as plentiful as dung and strive as hard to get a marten skin as if it were everlasting salvation.'

    "They fixed their seat at Novgorod on the Volkhov, lived there as an armed merchant garrison, used St. Peter's Church as a warehouse, stacked wine casks around its altar, guarded these stores like ferocious dogs, and fulfilled all the outward observances of religious piety.

    "Not content, the League turned its thoughts to controlling the trade of the Rhine.

    "Cologne, which had formed a hanse of its own, was forced into subordination. But farther south the Hanseatic was stopped by the Rhenish League, formed in 1254 by Cologne, Mainz, Speyer, Worms, Strasbourg, and Basel.

    "Still farther south Augsburg, Ulm, and Nuremberg handled the trade that came up from Italy. To this day one may see in Venice the Fondaco de'Tedeschi, their depot on the Grand Canal.

    "Regensburg and Vienna stood at the western end of the great Danube artery that took the products of inland Germany through Salonika into the Aegean, or through the Black Sea to Constantinople, Russia, islam, and the East.

    "So European trade came full circle and the web of medieval commerce was complete."

    I don't know why but this recounting makes me think of the Mafia and its methods of operating.

    Robby

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    November 18, 2005 - 07:20 am
    Bubble as French was the language you grew up with besides Hebrew I guess, the TH is practically impossible to pronounce for speakers of French. My mother had to help me with this and strangely enough French speaking children often pronounce TH instead of S and I had to drill mine into correcting that before they started school.

    From Mafia to Free Trade centuries pass and it is still very much alive.

    Bubble
    November 18, 2005 - 07:43 am
    Italian Mafia, Chicago Mafia, Corsican Mafia, now Russian Mafia being active in Israel as well... I think it will never disappear.

    Eloise, I learned Hebrew when I got married and decided to settle in Israel.

    Rich7
    November 18, 2005 - 08:59 am
    Inconsistancies of English pronunciation.

    You could make the argument that a word spelled "ghoti" should be pronounced as "fish."

    Gh an "f" sound as the "gh" in enough.

    O an "i" sound as the "o" in women.

    Ti a "sh" sound as the "ti" in nation

    Hence "ghoti" could be pronounced "fish"

    Rich

    Scrawler
    November 18, 2005 - 12:02 pm
    For more information about pirates go to: http://www.piratesinfo.com.

    Rich7
    November 18, 2005 - 12:37 pm
    Been just surfing the net finding out what I can about the Hanseatic League. When I (reluctantly) studied history decades ago, it seemed to be all about kings, princes, wars, treaties, and dates, lots of dates. Not much about business and commerce, as represented by the Hanseatic League.

    It appears that the Hanseatic League was not overturned by a violent struggle or decline from within like the Roman Empire; it just became economically obsolete with the growth of trade outside the Hanseatic union.

    It is my understanding that the Hanseatic League never disbanded. In fact, the official name for the city of Hamburg, Germany, today, is "The Free and Hanseatic City of Hamburg."

    Rich

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 18, 2005 - 04:47 pm
    "What sort of men were the merchants who sent their goods along these routes amid the suspicious faces, strange tongues, and jealous creeds of a dozen lands?

    "They came from many peoples and countries but a great number of them were Syrians, Jews, Armenians, or Greeks.

    "They were seldom such businessmen as we know today, safe and sedentary behind a desk in their own city. Usually they moved with their goods. Often they traveled great distances to buy cheaply where the products they wanted abounded and returned to sell dear where their goods were rare. Normally they sold, as well as bought, wholesale -- en gros, said the French. The English translated en gros into grosser and used this first form of the word grocer to mean one who sold spices in bulk.

    "Merchants were adventurers, explorers, knights of the caravan, armed with daggers and bribes, ready for highwaymen, pirates, and a thousand tribulations.

    "The variety of laws and the multiplicity of jurisdictions were perhaps the worst of their harassments and the progressive formulation of an international law of commerce and navigation was one of their major achievements. If a merchant traveled by land he was subject to a new court and perhaps different laws at every feudal domain.

    "If his wares were spilled upon the road, the local lord could claim them. If his ship was stranded it belonged by the 'law of wreck' to the landlord upon whose shores it fell. A Breton lord boasted that a dangerous rock on his coast was the most precious stone in his crown.

    "For centuries the merchants fought this abuse. In the twelfth they began to secure its abrogation. Meanwhile the international Jewish traders had accumulated for their own use a code of mercantile law. These regulations became the foundation of the law merchant of the eleventh century. This ius mecatorum grew year by year through the ordinances issued by lords or kings for the protection of merchants or visitors from foreign states.

    "Special courts were established to administer the law merchant. Significantly these courts disregarded such old forms of evidence or trial as torture, duel, or ordeal.

    This reminds me of the itinerant peddlar in the West as the U.S. grew. In many cases, I believe, they were also Jewish or from the Mid East.

    Robby

    winsum
    November 18, 2005 - 05:47 pm

    MeriJo
    November 18, 2005 - 05:57 pm
    These recent excerpts are very interesting and informative.

    I shall be reading mostly for awhile. I am having outpatient therapy in order to walk better. I have graduated to the cane, but the exercises wear me out.

    And yesterday I learned that the son who has been taking such good care of me has had the cancer he had in remission become active again, and will be going for chemotherapy. I am having a time concentrating on Durant's Story of Civilization right now, but I shall be reading along.

    Rich7: I really liked history, but I had forgotten a lot of the Hanseatic league. Thanks for your post.

    Rich7
    November 18, 2005 - 06:18 pm
    Sometimes a captain lost more that his cargo when running aground on a distant land. If the crew wasn't killed, they were often taken as slaves.

    I recently read a book titled "Skeletons on the Zahara," by James Riley. It is a true account, written at the time by Captain Riley, and recently re-published. It relates the story of his ship out of Wethersfield, Connecticut that wrecked off the coast of Muslim Western Africa in 1815. The crew members were each taken and made into slaves by their captors, impoverished desert nomads. They were treated horribly. The story details the Captain's incredible escape from captivity.

    He was traded and sold several times. Once he was traded to another master for just a worn camel blanket. One of his "owners" told him that they prayed every night for Allah to bring them a wrecked ship loaded with Christians so that they could make slaves of them without violating the Koran.

    Rich

    Rich7
    November 18, 2005 - 06:23 pm
    Merijo, I just read your post. I wish for everything to turn out well for you and your son.

    Rich

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 18, 2005 - 06:59 pm
    MeriJo:--Take care of yourself. Your health comes first.

    Robby

    kiwi lady
    November 18, 2005 - 07:29 pm
    Meri Jo sorry to hear your son is out of remission. I wish him all the best.

    Carolyn

    Traude S
    November 18, 2005 - 07:53 pm
    MeriJo, best wishes for you and your son in the coming days and weeks.

    winsum
    November 18, 2005 - 07:59 pm
    Energy seems to be more important than anything else in my life. I wish you lots and lots of it. . . claire

    Justin
    November 18, 2005 - 09:55 pm
    Take care, Merijo. Life is precious.

    Bubble
    November 19, 2005 - 03:51 am
    Merijo, take care, we are in thoughts with you.

    "They came from many peoples and countries but a great number of them were Syrians, Jews, Armenians, or Greeks. "

    Nothing has changed, those people seem to be still doing the same thing, the world round.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 19, 2005 - 06:20 am
    We have spent some time discussing religion and now we are discussing the business world. Can the TWO OF THEM be combined?

    Robby

    Bubble
    November 19, 2005 - 06:41 am
    I would have loved to meet him and talked to him. A most interesting person. Thanks for that article Robbie.

    Justin
    November 19, 2005 - 03:02 pm
    Peter Drucker was on the faculty at my university. I did not know him but I did sit in on a few of his classes. I remember thinking at the time that he was an iconoclast and a spitter. It was not until years later after reading some of his books that I came appreciate his great talent. My guru at the time was Ludwig Von Mises who was also a spitter from Vienna. So too was Von Hayek. No one wanted to sit in the front row while those guys were lecturing. What is it about the Vienese conversion to English, Traude, that causes people to back off to a safe distance. .

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 19, 2005 - 03:58 pm
    The Progress of Industry

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 19, 2005 - 04:11 pm
    "The development of industry kept pace with the expansion of commerce. Wider markets stimulated production and mounting production nourished trade.

    "Transport progressed least.

    "Most medieval highways were avenues of dirt and dust or mud. No crown or culverts carried water from the road. Holes and pools abounded. Fords were many, bridges few.

    "Burdens were carried on pack mules or horses rather than in carts which could not so well avoid the holes. Carriages were large and clumsy, rode on iron tires and had no springs. They were so uncomfortable, however ornate, that most men and women preferred to travel on horseback -- both sexes astride.

    "Until the twelfth century the maintenance of roads depended upon the owner of the adjoining property who wondered why he should spend to mend what chiefly transients used.

    "In the thirteenth century Frederick II, inspired by Moslem and Byzantine examples, ordered the repair of roads in Sicily and southern Italy. And about the same time the first 'royal highways' were built in France -- by laying stone cubes in a loose bed of earth or sand.

    "In the same century the cities began to pave their central streets. Florence, Paris, London, and the Flemish towns built excellent bridges.

    "In the twelfth century the Church organized religious fraternities for the repair or construction of bridges and offered indulgences to those who shared in the work. Such freres pontifs built the bridge at Avignon which still preserves four arches from their hands. Some monastic orders, pre-eminently the Cistercians, toiled to keep roads and bridges functioning.

    "From 1176 to 1209 king, clergy and citizens contributed funds or labor to raising London Bridge. Houses and a chapel rose over it and twenty stone arches carried it across the Thames.

    "Early in the thirteenth century the first known suspension bridge was thrown over a gorge in the St. Gotthard Pass of the Alps."

    Bridges seem to stand out in history.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 19, 2005 - 04:17 pm
    The famous BRIDGE AT AVIGNON.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 19, 2005 - 04:21 pm
    Here are the lyrics to PONT D'AVIGNON. My children, when infants, were raised to the tune and words of that song.

    Robby

    Fifi le Beau
    November 19, 2005 - 04:34 pm
    Robby, this is the second article you have put up about Peter Drucker. Since Rick Warren who wrote "The purpose driven life" cites Drucker as most influential in his management style and a good friend of his, I submit this article from the New Yorker on Rick Warren and his "Cellular Church".

    It was written by Malcolm Gladwell, and I could only get it online from his web site.

    It is from the Sept. 12 issue for those who get the magazine. I have spent twenty minutes looking for my copy and just found it.

    The Cellular Church

    Fifi

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    November 19, 2005 - 04:34 pm
    I heard Sur le Pont d'Avignon when I was a baby and I sang it to my own children. It is a lovely song. I bet Bubble too heard it then too.

    I wonder why a bridge always seems to blend so well with the scenery. Perhaps because of the arches.

    Fifi le Beau
    November 19, 2005 - 04:41 pm
    MeriJo, I hope you and your son are on the mend and in much better health soon.

    Fifi

    mabel1015j
    November 19, 2005 - 05:19 pm
    When i was Director of Quality Manangement at Ft Dix and was also doing management training, we read and talked a lot about Peter Drucker, but i never got an inkling of his tho'ts about religion. I'll have to hunt those up, sounds like they could be interesting.

    You all will be happy to know that my grandson is learning the tune Sur la POnt (different lyrics) at his nursery school, why do you think it has remained so popular over all these years?.....jean

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 19, 2005 - 05:26 pm
    Here is an interesting HISTORY OF ROADS.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 19, 2005 - 06:03 pm
    Now see how the HISTORY OF BRIDGES has changed.

    Click onto photos to enlarge.

    Robby

    mabel1015j
    November 19, 2005 - 06:16 pm
    interesting article about Warren. I don't know Gladwell, do you know anything about him?

    mabel1015j
    November 19, 2005 - 06:18 pm
    I'll be darned! That's one of those words that we use from birth and never ask "what does that mean?"......jean

    Justin
    November 19, 2005 - 07:10 pm
    So that's what "highway" is all about.

    Fifi le Beau
    November 19, 2005 - 07:22 pm
    Mabel, I know him mainly through his New Yorker articles. He has written two books both of which made the best seller lists. The first is "The Tipping Point" (how little things make a big difference). The second is "Blink" (the power of thinking without thinking).

    I have not read his books, but my daughter has told me "Blink" will be under my tree at Christmas. She thinks I need to read this book because I usually want to look at all the angles before deciding anything.

    He has improved on his New Yorker articles over time and has been there almost ten years now, though he still looks like a teenager.

    Fifi

    Traude S
    November 19, 2005 - 07:48 pm
    Malcolm Gladwell's "Blink" has amazing insights - for example re the phenomenon of instant, instinctive impression of something amiss, something that we perceive in the blink of the eye.

    "Sur le pont d'Avignon, l'on y danse ..." was one the favorites of the children in the Montessori School in Northern Virginia which my son attended. I know because I taught the children French and German (as a gratuitous offering) according to the true Montessori spirit that parents should contribute whatever they could (I volunteered my husband and he HATED to paint the little tables and chairs, but by gum he did!), and that children should be exposed to different experiences in languages and art. It has prepared my son exceptionally well for life.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 20, 2005 - 05:32 am
    "Roads being painful, waterways were popular and played the leading role in the transport of goods.

    "One boat could carry as much as 500 animals and far more cheaply. From the Tagus to the Volga the rivers of Europe were its main highways and their direction and outlets determined the spread of population, the growth of towns and often national military policy. Canals were innumerable though locks were unknown.

    "Whether boat or by land, travel was arduous and slow.

    "A bishop took twenty-nine days to go from Canterbury to Rome. Couriers with fresh relays of horses could make a hundred miles a day. But private couriers were costly and the post (re-established in Italy in the twelfth century) was normally confined to government affairs.

    "Here and there -- as between London and Oxford or Winchester -- a regular stagecoach service was available.

    "News, like men, traveled slowly. Intelligence of Barbarosa's death in Cilicia took four months to reach Germany. Medieval man could eat his breakfast without being disturbed by the industriously collected calamities of the world. Those that came to his ken were fortunately too old for remedy.

    "Some advances were made in the harnessing of natural power.

    "The Domesday Book recorded 5000 water mills in England in 1086. A drawing of 1169 pictures a water wheel whose leisurely revolutions were multiplied to high speed by a succesion of diminishing gears. With such acceleration the water wheel became a basic instrument of industry.

    "A water driven sawmill appears in Germany in 1245. One water mill at Douai (1313) was used in making edged tools. The windmill first reported in western Europe in 1105 spread rapidly after Christian notice of its wide use in Islam. Ypres alone had 120 in the thirteenth century."

    The airplane and the internet affecting (causing) global trade?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 20, 2005 - 05:44 am
    Click HERE for all you ever wanted to know about windmills.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 20, 2005 - 05:50 am
    Recent hurricanes taught us forcibly the huge power of wind. Click HERE to read about harnessing wind power for industrial purposes.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 20, 2005 - 06:05 am
    Here is a brief history of the TRANSPORT OF MAIL.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 20, 2005 - 06:28 am
    Here is the latest from Mal.

    SUNDAY

    Good morning, everyone. It's an absolutely glorious morning here on the mountain top. The high temperature will be 50 degrees.

    I can't stay long because I'm going out to breakfast in what is becoming my favorite diner. It's the only place I know where chipped beef on toast and Scrapple are served.

    Chris came over yesterday and took me to the dump with him. The truck was loaded with boxes from my move and junk out of the Freeman garage.

    I have never, ever in my life gone to a dump that is run with such military precision. Chris had to give his ID and answer questions before they'd let him drive in. Then we had to stop at one place and dispose of some things. Off to another where the rest of them were carefully put in containers.

    Then on the way out, we had to stop at the gatehouse again. There Chris answered more questions and paid for the privilege of using the dump. He told me there's a scale where the first stop and second stops are made. One weighs the truck when it is full. The other weighs it when it's been emptied out. The fee charged is according to the amount left at the dump. It looked like a park in places and like a strip mine in others.

    We went grocery shopping then. That is, Christopher went for me to save time. He bought me enough food to last well into next year!

    To Chris and Serena's house then, and more of my things were loaded onto the truck. I saw Serena and her mother and little Donny, who cried hard when we left because he wanted to come with us. Leah Paris jumped in, and we came back to my house.

    While Chris unloaded my things, Leah ;and I went over to Richard's apartment next door. Most of Richard's bedroom is taken up with miniature trains which run around the room. They are fascinating. I've never seen anything quite like it, and I'm sure Leah hasn't. She was a little bit afraid, in fact, by all the motion of the trains, lights and whistles.

    Richard helped Chris unload the hand truck he'd brought in; then he left, and Leah Paris helped her father unload and unpack the groceries and put them away. She was a big, strong girl and a very hard worker yesterday. Chris told me she fell asleep on the twenty minute drive home.

    I love my place! When I leave it,I can't wait to get back!

    The things I had ordered at eBay were at Chris's, so after everybody went home, I looked at them last night. My fake beaver jacket I bought for a song came. It's cute, stylish and warm. The gifts for the children arrived, and so did two "grabbers." I don't know what else to call them. One of them came in very handy this morning when I had to retrieve my shoe, which somehow had gone under the vanity by my bed.

    Anyway, things are great, and I'm very happy.

    Mal

    Rich7
    November 20, 2005 - 07:18 am
    Mal,

    "Anyway, things are great, and I'm very happy."

    The best part of your message.

    Rich

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    November 20, 2005 - 08:37 am
    This woman has the energy of a comet I tell you. Just loved the dump anecdote though, especially about weighing the truck before and after dumping. Now she is "going out for breakfast" no less, how lucky can you get? I just love electric trains especially when it is an electric train enthusiast' hobby who connects long tracks of rails running all around the room. I hope Mal writes her biography, it would sell like hot cakes.

    MeriJo
    November 20, 2005 - 04:09 pm
    Rich, Robby, Kiwi Lady, Traude, winsum, Justin, Bubble and Fifi - Thank you all for your kind and positive words and thoughts. They are very much appreciated, and I shall keep them in my heart.

    Right now, we are looking forward to Thanksgiving and celebrating a grandson's birthday the same day.

    My best wishes to all here for a very

    HAPPY THANKSGIVING

    MeriJo
    November 20, 2005 - 04:12 pm
    Mal:

    I'm delighted to hear of your new home and all the pleasure you are getting from being there.

    Good to know you are feeling so perky. I wish more and more of this good feeling for you.

    3kings
    November 20, 2005 - 07:39 pm
    ROADS..... "Oh! ye'll take the high road and I'll take the low road, And I'll be in Scotland afore ye; ..."

    I always wondered why the low road should be any faster than the other. Maybe it is straighter, or entails less climbing....

    Anyhow, I'm sure the lyricist had his facts right, and if you want a quick trip, swing low my son, swing low... ++ Trevor

    Sunknow
    November 20, 2005 - 08:47 pm
    Robby - Thanks for posting the updates from Mal.

    Mal, you are an inspiration to us all. Rejoice in your new home, be healthy and happy. And as soon as you have things organized the way you want them....record it all in that book that Eloise suggested you write.

    We are all interested in your journey to a "new world" for you.

    Sun

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    November 21, 2005 - 04:22 am
    The airplane and the internet affecting (causing) global trade?"

    What an interesting question this is. Transportation has always been faster and faster through history. "Twenty nice days for a bishop to go from Canterbury to Rome" is just an example. I think of what the Bishop was carrying that could affect the decisions of the Pope. Decisions that could lead to conflicts and bloodshed.

    Today leaders have the Internet to communicate and they can make decisions that affect the fate of the entire world in an instant. If the Internet is not a direct cause of wars it is an indirect one that can and is used by evil minds. In the centuries time was a buffer zone where leaders could take some time to ponder their decisions and appease their anger while they were waiting for important messages from afar. Not today though.

    Reaction is faster and deadlier than before. Trade is so fast that if a computer suddenly fails at one end, a fortunes can be lost during that time and cannot be recaptured because somebody else caught the winnings in the few moments it was inoperable.

    The quick transportation of information is the key that opens doors to the wealth of the world which seems to be what human activity is all about.

    Éloïse

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 21, 2005 - 04:42 am
    "Improved tools and expanding needs encouraged an outburst of mining.

    "The commercial demand for a reliable gold coinage and the increasing ability of people to satisfy the passion for jewelry led to renewed washing of gold grains from rivers and the mining of gold in Italy, France, England, Hungary and above all in Germany.

    "Toward 1175 rich veins of copper, silver, and gold were found in the ErzGebirge (i.e. ore mountains). Freiberg, Goslar and Annaberg became the centers of a medieval 'gold rush'. From the little town of Joachimsthal came the joachimisthaler -- meaning coins mined there -- and, by inevitable shortening, the German and Enlish words thaler and dollar.

    "Germany became the chief provider of precious metal for Europe and its mines formed the foundation -- its commerce the framework -- of its political power.

    "Iron was mined in the Harz Mountains and in Westphalia, in the Lowland, England, France, Spain, and Sicily and once more in Ancient Elba.

    "Derbyshare mined lead -- Devon, Cornwall, and Bohemia tin -- Spain mercury and silver -- Italy sulphur and alum -- and Salzburg took its name from its great deposits of salt.

    "Coal, used in Roman England but apparently neglected in the Saxon period, was mined again in the twelfth century.

    "In 1237 Queen Eleanor abandoned Nottingham Castle because of fumes from the coal burned in the town below and in 1301 London forbade the use of coal because smoke was poisoning the city -- medieval instances of a supposedly modern woe.

    "Nevertheless by the end of the thirteenth century coal was actively mined at Newcastle and Durham and elsewhere in England, Belgium, and France."

    Yet here we are 700 years later still debating the noxious effects of coal and questioning the existence of global warming.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 21, 2005 - 05:32 am
    The fight for COAL continues.

    Robby

    Malryn
    November 21, 2005 - 07:19 am

    Thanks, everyone. The support of friends in SeniorNet during the more than six months of extreme challenges, illness, and pain allotted to me nonstop during that time has been an enormous help. Let's hope it is over and done with; I'm bored with it all!

    I'm using my son's laptop until cable comes into this apartment so I can get back to work again. Because of this, the New York Times won't let me in. Not only am I locked out of their "Pay per view" articles, I'm locked out of the whole website.

    Regardkess, I'd like to mention that my just-turned-six year old granddaughter in public kindergarten here in Pennsylvania is already being taught in school how to recognize old coal mines and warned to stay away from them.

    Mal

    Justin
    November 21, 2005 - 01:43 pm
    Yes, Mal, and rightly so. Some years ago Scranton and Wilkesbarre suffered from surface cave-ins. They may be more extensive today.

    Rich7
    November 21, 2005 - 02:31 pm
    Durant's words about coal being mined in England during Roman times, then forgotten until the 12th century is just another reminder of how much Europe truly regressed into a "dark age" after the decline of Rome.

    Mal, I understand your frustration with your computer blocking The New York Times. My computer has always blocked the NY Times, and a lot of effort on this end, plus numerous e-mails to NYT customer service have done no good. I've given up.

    Many of Robby's links are to NYT articles, and I don't ever see them. The sensation while participating in S of Civ. is like taking a class where every fifth page of the textbook has been torn out.

    Rich

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 21, 2005 - 04:39 pm
    I have been reading the NY Times on almost a daily basis since I was 12 (for 73 years) and this is probably their way of paying me for helping to support them.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 21, 2005 - 04:40 pm
    Money

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 21, 2005 - 04:46 pm
    "The commercial and industrial expansion revolutionized finance.

    "Commerce could not advance by barter. It required a stable standard of value, a convenient medium of exchange and ready access to investment funds.

    "Under Continental feudalism the great lords and prelates exercised the right of mintage and European economy suffered from a bedlam of currencies worse than today's. Counterfeiters and coin clippers multiplied the chaos.

    "The kings ordered such gentry to be dismembered or emasculated or boiled alive. But they themselves repeatedly debased their currencies.

    "Gold became scarce after the barbarian invasions and disappeared from the coinages of Western Europe after the Moslem conquest of the East. Between the eighth and the thirteenth centuries all such coinages were in silver or baser metals.

    "Gold and civilization wax and wane together."

    Comments, please?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 21, 2005 - 04:49 pm
    Here is a history of GOLD COINAGE.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 21, 2005 - 04:52 pm
    What is BARTER?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 21, 2005 - 07:12 pm
    Is this how you spend YOUR MONEY?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 21, 2005 - 07:21 pm
    Do you think about MONEY?

    Robby

    Justin
    November 21, 2005 - 07:40 pm
    We have all spoken of the "Dark Ages" as though it were some particular period in history. I do it too. But it is not a specific period. Are these ages coincident with the Medieval period which lasted about 1000 years?. (It is generally thought to be between the years 476 and 1453 CE.) Some historians like to think of the middle period 800 to 1100 CE as the "Dark period". Some look at skills and handicrafts and find that many had to be relearned as the Medieval period progressed. Rich, noted that coal as a source of heat disappeared for a time and had to be relearned. Are these forgotten things evidence of a "Dark age"?

    We know why some skills disappeared for a few centuries. People were forced to spend their lives in defence of the home fires. Raiders from the North: Goths, Visigoths, Vandals, Huns, and Vikings kept people busy swinging a sword. Building skills, architecture, art, manufacturing, trade, all waned till about the ninth century. But between 900 and 1200 CE growth was steady. Art, architecture, literature, language,law, science, translations from Greek and Latin,and philosophy,trade, made gains.

    We know that religion took hold in this period and the great mass of people were cowed into following superstitious ideas. But we also know that in spite of the negative influence exercised by the religious hierarchy evidence of growth can still be found in every century after 900CE. A good part of this growth may have been caused by the Crusades which were responsible for ending serfdom, encouraging trade, and launching an interest in towns and cities.

    And so we have evidence of growth rather than darkness in the Medieval period. One could easily speak of a Carolingian renaissance, an Ottonian Renaissance, and finally a Renaissance of the twelfth century. .

    kiwi lady
    November 21, 2005 - 10:31 pm
    No I do not spend my money like that my entertainment costs are $480 for my broadband per year and I spend $20 on my cellphone per year. ( I have prepaid)

    Barter is still popular here. My kids often barter their services for someone elses services. For instance one son decorates someones house - they do the the equivalent value in say electrical work in his home or reroofing etc. SIL might do some printing in return for some plumbing work. We used to have green cards I don't know if they still are running where all sorts of goods and services could be bartered without money changing hands.

    Carolyn

    Fifi le Beau
    November 21, 2005 - 10:33 pm
    The article on the history of gold was great. It was short and covered the span of history from antiquity to present.

    I was not yet born in 1933 when President Roosevelt took the U.S. off the gold standard and recalled all gold and gold coins to be returned to the U.S. Treasury where it was melted into gold bars.

    I knew nothing about the recall when as a young girl, I followed my grandmother into the attic to look in her trunk for a bonnet pattern from her grandmother. She was making a bonnet for my aunt who was in a Stephen Foster play.

    She let me look through old pictures, brooches, thimbles, and odds and ends in a tray. She lifted the tray and underneath were several small velvet bags with drawstrings. I asked what they held, and she showed me a gold $20 double eagle. It was a liberty head and not nearly as impressive as the next one which was the striding liberty.

    I asked her why she kept her money hidden away in a trunk, and she said it was kept only for a 'rainy day'. There was a packet of bills tied with string. Since they didn't look familiar I asked what kind of money it was, she laughed and said it was Confederate money and not worth the paper it was printed on.

    She told me the story of her grandmother who had gone to purchase some salt, which had become scarce, with a pocket full of Confederate dollars, and she didn't have enough to cover a small bag of salt. From that time forward they only accepted payment in gold coin for any service or goods sold.

    This was my first lesson in money and its use or uselessness.

    Fifi

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    November 22, 2005 - 12:10 am
    "for all the talk of the Information Age, we are really in the Entertainment Age, where our lives are centered on the pursuit of happiness."

    I knew that the pursuit of happiness was dangerous but I like taking the risk of finding it.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 22, 2005 - 05:44 am
    "Where did the money come from that financed and expanded commerce and industry?

    "The greatest single provider was the Church. She had an unparalleled organization for raising funds and had always a liquid capital available for any purpose. She was the greatest financial power in Christendom.

    "Moreover, many individuals deposited private funds for safekeeping with churches or monasteries. From her wealth the Church lent money to persons or institutions in difficulty. Loans were made chiefly to villagers seeking to improve their farms. They acted as land banks and played a beneficent role in promoting a free peasantry.

    "As early as 1070 they lent money to neighboring lords in exchange for a share in the revenues of the lords' property. Through these mortgage loans the monasteries became the first banking corporations of the Middle Ages.

    "The abbey of St. Andre in France did so flourishing a banking business that it hired Jewish moneylenders to manage its financial operations.

    "The Knights Templar lent money on interest to kings and princes, lords and knights, churches and prelates. Their mortage business was probably the largest in the world in the thirteenth cenbtury.

    "But these loans by church bodies were usually for consumption or for political use, seldom for financing industry or trade.

    "Commercial credit began when an individual or a family, by what Latin Christendom called commenda, commended or entrusted money to a merchant for a specific voyage or enterprise, and received a share of the profits. Such a silent or 'sleeping' partnership was an ancient Roman device probably relearned by the Christian West from the Byzantine East.

    "So useful a way of sharing in profits without directly contravening the ecclesiastical prohibition of interest was bound to spread. The 'company' (com-panis: bread-sharer) or family investment became a societas, a partnership in which several persons, not necessarily kin, financed a group or series of ventures rather than one.

    "Such financial organizations appeared in Genoa and Venice toward the end of the tenth century, reached a high development in the twelfth, and largely accounted for the rapid growth of Italian trade. These investment groups often distributed their risk by buying 'parts' in several ships or ventures at a time.

    "When, in fourteenth-century Genoa, such shares (partes) were made transferable, the joint-stock company was born."

    I find this history of money intriguing, not the least of which are the meanings that Durant gives us of words of terms. I never knew the origin of the phrase "I don't have any bread."

    And I love the vision of a Jew working feverishly away in the Christian abbey.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 22, 2005 - 06:23 am
    We have not become a MONEY discussion group. On the other hand, that is where Durant has taken us for the moment.

    Robby

    Malryn
    November 22, 2005 - 06:36 am

    Knights Templar Citadel

    Fifi le Beau
    November 22, 2005 - 11:42 am
    Regarding the article on Hedge Funds.......

    Hedge fund managers are to me the same as bookies figuring out the spread to beat the odds on a game or race. They create nothing and instead bet against those who do. This scheme mainly benfits those who set up the funds, the same as bookies.

    Hedge funds are rife with opportunities to manipulate markets as wealthy investors can bet for or against their own controlling interest in a company's stock. Insiders know long before the public when a company stock will go down due to losses, so the insider goes to a hedge fund and bets against his own holdings and makes a bundle.

    Keep the minimum to one million dollars to get into a hedge fund, and let the rich play games with each other. Personally I think the whole scheme should be outlawed.

    Fifi

    Scrawler
    November 22, 2005 - 12:38 pm
    "Today was coal delivery day in our neighborhood, and, at houses up and down the block, heavy wooden doors built level with the sidewalk have been lifted up and left gaping open, exposing the coal cellars underneath. At irregular intervals down the sidewalk, planks and been leaned against the curbing by the more careful householders, so that they can step from the sidewalks into hired hacks on the street without soiling their shoes or boots." ~ "Booth" by David Robertson

    A good example of coal delivery in the United States in the mid-eighteen-sixties.

    "From its creation in the summer of 1865 until the present, the Secret Service was to protect something that the U.S. system may value even more than the lives of its political leaders - money.

    Counterfeiting, throughout the just-ended Civil War, still bedeviled the federal government and posed a serious threat to the nation's banking system. By the the time that Robert E. Lee had surrendered the Rebel Army of Northern Virginia to Ulyssess S. Grant on April 9, 1865, between one-third and one-half of all U.S. currency in circulation was counterfeit. Some sixteen hundred state banks designed and printed their own money at the start of the war, 1861, and with several thousand varieties of genuine currency flooding the nation, counterfeiters had a field day. All the notes were issued individually by each state. Criminals used bribery or influence to open a bank and print money, so counterfeiters grabbed the opportuinty and hired printers to produce currency with a bank's name printed on it. Will all the assorted notes in circulation, shopkeepers had difficulty determining the difference between bogus bills and genuine banknotes. Meanwhile, people hoarded coins, believing they were the only safe currency. Banks, in turn had to print smaller-size bills (fractional currency): 3 cents, 5 cents, 10 cents, and 50 cents. There were simply too many varieties of currency; even the crudest "bogus bills" passed muster in banks and shops alike.

    Congress responded by setting up a national currency system with the Legal Tender Act in 1862, authorizing the issuance of U.S. legal tender notes - a set of bills ranging in domination from one dollar to one thousand dollars and soon dubbed "greenbacks." Congress hoped that refiend printing techniques and the use of green ink on the reverse side of the notes would eliminate the counterfeiting problem. However, even though the new system amde it easier to detect counterfeit money, the nation's coney men (as counterfiters were known) proved up to the task of chruning out well-crafted bogus greenbacks." ~ "The Secret Service" Philip H. Melanson, PhD

    Can anyone tell me what is meant by "coin-cutters"?

    mabel1015j
    November 22, 2005 - 01:03 pm
    In order to have fractions of a coin - half a dollar, etc. people would actually cut coins in pieces, usually pure gold or silver ones. That is my understanding of the term, i'm sure someone will come up w/ a more academic description.....jean

    Rich7
    November 22, 2005 - 02:05 pm
    The Spanish dollar, or peso was in circulation as valid currency for part of America's early years.

    It was made of silver and was commonly cut up into eight pieces, or "Pieces of Eight."

    Each "piece of eight" was a "bit", and 25 cents was "two bits."

    Pieces of eight...Sounds like we're in the Treasure Island discussion, again.

    Rich

    Justin
    November 22, 2005 - 02:18 pm
    The Church was a banker with limited banking functions. They accepted money on deposit for safekeeping but paid no interest on deposits. They made loans in exchange for a share in the profits rather than for a fee called interest. That arrangement made them buyers rather than lenders and as such they were risk takers. Because of the prohibition against interest taking (a charge for the use of money) the church was a buyer and a depository but not a true banker. I suppose one could construe " a share in the profits" as an interest payment. What the church received as return for the use of money for a specified time was the additional risk of achieving a profit.

    I wonder how the Knights Templar were able to lend at interest and others were not. Clearly, the Jews were also exempt from this prohibition and as result they became the true bankers of Europe in the middle ages. Some of those old Jewish banking houses still exist; Rothchild's, for example.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 22, 2005 - 05:54 pm
    "The greatest single source of finance capital -- i.e. funds to meet the pre-income costs of an undertaking -- was the professional financier.

    "He had begun in antiquity as a money-changer and had long since developed into a moneylender, investing his own and other people's money in enterprises or in loans to churches, monasteries, nobles, or kings.

    "The role of the Jews as moneylenders has been exaggerated. They were powerful in Spain and for a time in Britain, weak in Germany, outdone in Italy, and France by Christian financiers.

    "The chief lender to the kings of England was William Cade.

    "The chief lenders in thirteenth-century France and Flanders were the Louchard and Crespin families of Arras. William the Breton described Arras at that time as 'glutted with usurers.'

    "Another center of northern finance was the bourse (bursa, purse) or money market of Bruges.

    "A still more powerful group of Christian moneylenders originated in Cahors, a town of southern France.

    "The papacy for a time entrusted its financial affairs in England to the Cahorsian bankers. But their ruthlessnesss so offended the English that one of their number was murdered at Oxford. Bishop Roger of London pronounced an anathema upon them and Henry III banished them from England.

    "Robert Grosseteste, Bishop of Lincoln, lamented on his deathbed the extortions of 'the merchants and exchangers of our lord the Pope' who 'are harder than the Jews.'"

    Comments, please?

    Robby

    Fifi le Beau
    November 22, 2005 - 05:58 pm
    Jewish religious law prohibits the charging of interest on loans.

    Christian religious law prohibits the charging of interest on loans.

    Islamic religious law prohibits the charging of interest on loans.

    So why is there so much greed, fraud, corruption, abuse, double dealing, underhanded, lying, cheating, bribing, stealing in the world?

    Since all these laws are false then it seems logical that all the others are also.

    Fifi

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 22, 2005 - 06:09 pm
    "Neither a borrower nor a lender be;
    For loan oft loses both itself and friend;
    And borrowing dulls the edge of husbandry."

    William Shakespeare, 'Hamlet,' Act I, Scene III

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 22, 2005 - 06:21 pm
    What sometimes happens while BORROWING OR LENDING.

    Robby

    Rich7
    November 22, 2005 - 07:07 pm
    "Neither a borrower nor a lender be."

    Polonius' advice to Laertes.

    Have always liked that scene in Hamlet. The advice is so incredibly practical and useful even today. (Maybe more so today.)

    My favorite line is Polonious telling Laertes, "To thine own self be true, and it must follow as the night the day, thou canst not then be false to any man."

    Shakespeare making music with words.

    Rich

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 23, 2005 - 04:53 am
    "It was the Italians who developed banking to unprecedented heights in the thirteenth century.

    "Great banking families rose to supply the sinews of far-reaching Italian trade -- the Buonsignori and Gallerani in Siena, the Frescobaldi, Bardi and Peruzzi in Florence, the Pisani and Tiepoli in Venice.

    "They extended their operations beyond the Alps and lent great sums to the ever-needy kings of England and France, to barons, bishops, abbots, and towns. Popes and kings employed them to collect revenues, manage mints and finances, advise on policy.

    "They bought wool, spices, jewelry and silk wholesale and owned ships and hotels from one end of Europe to the other. By the middle of the thirteenth century these 'Lombards,' as the North called all Italian bankers, were the most active and powerful financiers in the world. They were hated at home and abroad for their exactions and were envied for their wealth.

    "Every generation borrows and denounces those who lend. Their rise dealt a heavy blow to Jewish international banking and they were not above recommending the banishment of these patient competitors.

    "The strongest of the 'Lombards' were the Florentine banking firms of whom eighty are recorded between 1260 and 1347. They financed the political and military campaigns of the papacy and reaped rich rewards and their position as papal bankers provided a useful cover in operations that were hardly in harmony with the views of the Church on interest.

    "They made profits worthy of modern times. The Peruzi, for example, paid a forty per cent dividend in 1308. But these Italian firms almost atoned for their greed by their vitalizing services to commerce and industry.

    "When their tide ebbed they left some of their terms -- banco, credito, debito, cassa (money box, cash), conto, diconto, conto corrente, netto bilanza, banca rotta (bank broken, bankdruptcy) -- in almost all European languages."

    It's the economy, stupid.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 23, 2005 - 05:12 am
    Just one example of the POWER gained by manipulating money.

    Robby

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    November 23, 2005 - 06:20 am
    A new way of staying in business sometimes is to go BANKRUPT?

    Why not go bankrupt says "Enron, MCI Worldcom, United Airlines as the evaporation of the stigma of filing for bankruptcy" as it becomes a new tool, not to say a new toy.

    Will it become the norm rather than the exception as Multinationals speculate on Economic Futures? When they go bankrupt who loses their investment? certainly not the barons of the industry.

    Éloïse

    Rich7
    November 23, 2005 - 07:23 am
    Eloise,

    You're right. I remember as a kid that if someone went bankrupt they lost everything. They were disgraced, lost their home and (we thought) went off to the "poor house."

    Now it's just another tool for someone's lawyers to manipulate the system.

    How many times have you read about Donald Trump declaring bankruptcy? More than a few. You can read in the morning paper about him going bankrupt, and that night turn on the TV and see him in a custom tailored Armani suit, smiling like a Cheshire Cat on his own TV show.

    Rich

    p.s. More Shakespeare: Didn't he write "First we kill all the lawyers?" Can't remember which play that was from.

    Malryn
    November 23, 2005 - 07:47 am

    Don't knock it, you guys. I'm on the verge of bankruptcy myself. There is no way I can pay almost half of my income on bills I had before I was sick, plus the medical expenses thrust on me afterwards that my health insurance won't pay, without completely going under, . Since October 15th, I think it was, it has become more difficult to declare bankruptcy in the U. S. I hope I can do it because I'm tired of depending on luck and the whims and off-and-on generosity of others.

    Mal

    Rich7
    November 23, 2005 - 04:31 pm
    Since Durant is focusing on Italy, and their banking "p" rofits what about:-

    Pizza, pasta, pancetta, popes, proscutto, Pompeii, pesto, Piza, pepperoni, Portofino, Pavoratti, provolone, parmagano and polenta.

    Things to love about Italy, and that's only the "p's".

    Anybody hungry?

    Rich

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 23, 2005 - 04:57 pm
    "Insurance too had its beginnings in the thirteenth century.

    "The merchant guilds gave their members insurance against fire, shipwreck, and other misfortunes or injuries, even against lawsuits incurred for crimes -- whether the members were guilty or innocent.

    "Many monasteries offered a life annuity. In return for a sum of money paid down, they promised to provide the donor with food and drink, sometimes also with clothes and lodging for the rest of his life.

    "As early as the twelfth century, a Bruges banking house offered insurance on goods. A chartered insurance company was apparently established there in 1310.

    "The Bardi of Florence, in 1318, accepted insurance risks on overland assignments of cloth.

    "The first government bonds were issued by Venice in 1157. The needs of war led the republic to exact forced loans from the citizens and a special department (Camera degli Impresidi) was set up to receive the loans and give the subscribers interest-bearing certificates as state guarantees of repayment.

    "After 1206 these government bonds were made negotiable and transferable. They could be bought or sold or used as security for loans. Similar certificates of municipal indebtedness were accepted at Como in 1250 as equivalent to metal currency.

    "Since paper money is merely a governmental promise to pay, these negotiable gold certificates marked the beginning of paper money in Europe."

    Robby

    MeriJo
    November 23, 2005 - 05:16 pm
    There are several kinds of bankruptcy. Most businesses don't get off scot-free. As they reorganize they must make restitution.

    Bankruptcy

    Justin
    November 23, 2005 - 11:30 pm
    One of the nice things that came from making money in the wool business in 1300 CE is the support given by families like the Bardi and the Pazzi to artists who adorned the walls of family chapels. Frescos by Giotto survive in good condition in Chiesa de Santa Croce, Bardi Chapel. .

    The story of the Scrovegni family, merchants of Padua, and the Arena Chapel is an interesting one. Enrico S. bought an old Roman Arena as the site for his Chapel. He invited a young Giotto di Bondone who was painting in Padua at that time to do the inside walls. Giotto painted wall after wall till the entire interior was covered with his narrative style and classically formed religious figures. The Srovegni's permitted him to continue as expiation for the family's sin of usury which all generations felt obliged to do penance in recompense.

    I understand that recently conservators have forced limited viewing of the Arena Chapel. The breath of hundreds of viewers a day for many centuries have left a mark on these precious walls that is difficult to obliterate. I remember entering the Chapel some years ago and being overwhelmed by the color which looked as fresh as one might expect it be after almost seven centuries of viewing by humans. I have heard that the frescos had been cleaned in the last ten years and I have wanted to return for some time for another rush of color and an experience of narrative.

    We owe all this beautiful heritage to the wool business of the early Dugento and to the merchants who braved the seas infested with pirates and brought home the money only to spend it on memorials and on expiation projects for their many sins in the monetary world.

    Bubble
    November 23, 2005 - 11:40 pm
    Should we all meet there then, and continue our civilization tour under those skies?

    http://www.frommers.com/destinations/portofino/0751010001.html

    Bubble
    November 23, 2005 - 11:47 pm
    For Justin

    http://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/html/g/giotto/padova/index.html

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1769744.stm

    http://www.roanoke.edu/gst/GioArena.htm

    http://employees.oneonta.edu/farberas/arth/Arth213/arenachapel.html

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 24, 2005 - 06:25 am
    Interest

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 24, 2005 - 06:39 am
    "The greatest obstacle to the development of banking was the ecclesiastical doctrine of interest.

    "This had three sources:

    1 - Aristotle's condemnation of interest as an unnatural breeding of money by money.
    2 - Christ's condemnation of interest.
    3 - The reaction of the Fathers of the Church against commercialism and usury in Rome.

    "Roman law had legalized interest and 'honorable men like Brutus had charged merciless rates.

    "Ambrose had denounced the theory that one may do what he likes with his own. He said:-

    'My own, say you? What is your own? When you came from your mother's womb, what wealth did you bring with you? That which is taken by you, beyond what suffices you, is taken by violence. Is it that God is unjust in not distributing the means of life to us equally so that you should have abundance while others are in want? Or is it not rather that He wished to confer upon you marks of His kindness while He crowned your fellow man with the virtue of patience? You, then, who have received the gift of God, think you that you commit no injustice by keeping to yourself alone what would be the means of life to many? It is the bread of the hungry you cling to. It is the clothing of the naked you lock up. The money you bury is the redemption of the poor.'

    This passage came naturally as we continue page by page in Durant and yet how extraordinary that Ambrose's comments were given to us on Thanksgiving Day. Some say there is no such thing as coincidence.

    Robby

    Bubble
    November 24, 2005 - 07:20 am
    Something to ponder about. Thanks Robby, on this day.

    jane
    November 24, 2005 - 08:13 am
    With a lull in the discussion here as Americans celebrate Thanksgiving, let's move over to a new place and continue the discussion there.

    Back in a second with the link...

    ---Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant ~ Volume IV, Part 9 ~ Nonfiction~NEW