Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant ~ Volume IV, Part 4 ~ Nonfiction
Marjorie
February 16, 2005 - 08:28 pm
  
"I want to know what were the steps by which man passed from barbarism to civilization." (Voltaire)

What are our origins? Where are we now? Where are we headed? Share your thoughts with us!

Volume Four (The Age of Faith)

"Four elements constitute Civilization -- economic provision, political organization, moral traditions, and the pursuit of knowledge and the arts. "

"I shall proceed as rapidly as time and circumstances will permit, hoping that a few of my contemporaries will care to grow old with me while learning. "

"These volumes may help some of our children to understand and enjoy the infinite riches of their inheritance."

"Civilization begins where chaos and insecurity ends."


THE TALMUD

The Exiles | The Makers of the Talmud | The Law | Life and the Law

In this Discussion Group we are not examining Durant. We are examining Civilization but in the process constantly referring to Durant's appraisals.

This volume surveys the medieval achievements and modern significance of Christian, Islamic, and Judaic life and culture. It includes the dramatic stories of St. Augustine, Hypatia, Justinian, Mohammed, Harun al-Rashid, Charlemagne, William the Conqueror, Eleanor of Aquitaine, Richard the Lion-Hearted, Saladin, Maimonides, St. Francis, St. Thomas Aquinas, Roger Bacon, and many others, all in the perspective of integrated history. The greatest love stories in literaure -- of Heloise and Abelard, of Dante and Beatrice -- are here retold with enthralling scholarship.

The Age of Faith covers the economy, politics, law, government, religion, morals, manners, education, literature, science, philosophy, and art of the Christians, Moslems, and Jews during an epoch that saw vital contests among the three great religions and between the religious and the secular view of human life. All the romance, poverty, splendor, piety and immorality, feudalism and monasticism, heresies and inquisitions, cathedrals and universities, troubadours and minnesingers of a picturesque millennium are gathered into one fascinating narrative.

This volume, and the series of which it is a part, has been compared with the great work of the French encyclopedists of the eighteenth century. The Story of Civilization represents the most comprehensive attempt in our times to embrace the vast panorama of man's history and culture.

This, then, is about YOU. Join our group daily and listen to what Durant and the rest of us are saying. Better yet, share with us your opinions.

Your Discussion Leader:Robby Iadeluca

Story of Civilization, Vol. IV, Part 1 | Story of Civilization, Vol. IV, Part 2 | Story of Civilization, Vol. IV, Part 3
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Marjorie
February 16, 2005 - 08:36 pm
Welcome to your new home.

If you use subscriptions, do not forget to SUBSCRIBE.

Justin
February 16, 2005 - 09:13 pm
Thank you, Claire. It's nice to be back. I replaced an IBM Aptiva with an IBM Think Centre A50. The new gadgit has Windows XP but it is not compatible with my old printer and scanner. I must either give up using them, find a compatible driver on the internet, or buy new compatible hardware. If anyone else is thinking about replacing a computer, be aware of the compatibility issue. It will cost you.

winsum
February 16, 2005 - 10:37 pm
is one of the reasons my mac is still strugggling along at OS9.1 instead of OSX. my programs won't work on the upgrade. I"d have to upgrade them too and then some. . . so at 56k on my modem and an actual 32baud. oh well. We're into art music poetry my stuff as promised by the heading and in islam in particular or everywhere historically????claire

robert b. iadeluca
February 17, 2005 - 03:09 am
I'm glad that Claire mentioned the Heading. The Heading is extremely important in this forum, not only because of the GREEN quotes which are periodically changed to show the sub-topics we are discussing but because the comments there give us the whole steady direction in which we are going.

I suggest that from time to time we not quickly scroll by but pause to-read the entire Heading.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 17, 2005 - 03:19 am
"Hasan ibn Hani won the name of Abu Nuwas -- 'Father of the Curl' -- from his abounding locks.

"Born in Persia, he found his way to Baghdad, became a favorite of Harun, and may have had with him one or two of the adventures ascribed to them in the Thousand Nights and a Night. He loved wine, woman, and his songs -- offended the Caliph by too conspicuous toping, agnosticism, and lechery -- was often imprisoned and often released -- came by leisurely stages to virtue -- and ended by carrying heads and the Koran with him everywhere.

"The minor courts had their poets too, and Sayfu'l-Dawla provided a place for one who, almost unknown to Europe, is reckoned by the Arabs as their best. His name was Ahmad ibn Husein, but Islam remembers him as al-Mutannab -- 'the pretender to prophecy.'

"Born at Kufa in 915, he studied at Damascus, announced himself as a prophet, was arrested and released, and settled down at the Aleppo court. Like Abu Nuwas, he made his own religion, and notoriously neglected to fast or pray or read the Koran. Though he denounced life as not quite up to his standards, he enjoyed it too much to think of eternity.

"He celebrated Sayfu's victories with such zest and verbal artifice that his poems are as popular in Arabic as they are untranslatable into English."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 17, 2005 - 03:22 am
Here is an excellent link about ARABIC POETRY.

Robby

Bubble
February 17, 2005 - 04:20 am
Winsum, Montesquieu has nothing Persan in his Lettres Persanes, when he wrote this it was a way to criticize his period with impunity. It is a literature classic in all high schools in French speaking countries.

These caliphs had their pets same as the courts will have their buffons and jesters later on.

Scrawler
February 17, 2005 - 10:44 am
Ever wonder if "THE POWERS THAT BE" design with the intention in mind that you will have to continue to upgrade every so often. I bought a new computer last year and six months later I'm told its obsolete. According to my daughter I need to upgrade in order to get a faster computer. Personally, I don't want anything in my apartment that goes faster than me.

Shasta Sills
February 17, 2005 - 02:48 pm
Scrawler, that's exactly how I feel about computers.

Justin
February 17, 2005 - 03:10 pm
Hani and al-Mutannab are two poets who,though born in the east in the midst of Islam, have invented a religion of their own-one which not only ignored the stifling control of Islam, but also enabled them to write poetry critical of that religion. We have seen time and again how Islam silences opposition and stifles intellectual growth. These fellows were in and out of prison.

One can excuse an illiterate population for falling prey to such control but literate and educated people can not be excused. Parental loyalty may influence one's choice,familial fealty too, may limit one but beyond those constraints the literate and educated in the east and west adopt Islam and other religions with full knowledge of their limitations.

Malryn (Mal)
February 17, 2005 - 03:23 pm

Could the same be said of Christianity or any other religion, JUSTIN?

I want the best, fastest computer I can get! You would, too, if you did the kind of work I do.

Mal

Justin
February 17, 2005 - 03:28 pm
al-Ma'ari's lines may well have been written this morning instead of a millennium ago.

To his own sordid ends the pulpit he ascends
And though he disbelieves in resurection ,
Makes all his hearers quail whilst he unfolds a tale
Of Last Day scenes that stun the recollection.

winsum
February 17, 2005 - 05:05 pm
most of it in arabic but the one in english is luscious. here is a teaser, just two lines. It is very long and rich but it's one of the few in english.

Tarafah ibn al-'Abd

The Ode of Tarafah

bubble: about the persian letters that's what I said although some of the material is said to have come from the thousand and one nights and in the beginning the heroine's name is FATIMA...it's a classic all right. . so nice. oops it's not a camel it's A young gazelle. . . .

http://www.library.cornell.edu/colldev/mideast/taraf.htm tht is the site again and this is part of an ode to a gazzelle

"her eyes are a pair of mirrors, sheltering

in the caves of her brow-bones, the rock of a pool's hollow,

Justin
February 17, 2005 - 09:09 pm
Yes Mal, the literate and educated who allow one of the Abrahamic religions to influence conduct must be held accountable for the pain that religion inflicts on others and for the damage it does in the world.It must be assumed that literate and educated people are aware of the character of the religion when they become part of it.

The damage Islam has done to eastern peoples by squelching opposition to it's tenets is unmeasurable but evident in eastern intellectual development. In the west, one must hold Catholics responsible for the excesses of it's priesthood. Certainly, the Papacy's denial of sexual activity to priests, is the immediate cause of the problem but ultimately the parishioners are at fault for endorsing the actions of the Pope.

When Martin Luther saw abuse in the Papacy, he pulled out and started a new movement. I expect no less a response from current members of the Church. Let the Church accept sex as a natural function of mankind and the evils of the priesthood will diminish. The same might well be said for the current American administration.

robert b. iadeluca
February 18, 2005 - 01:22 am
"The strangest of all Arab poets, Abu'l-'Ala al-Ma'arri was born at al-Ma'arratu, near Aleppo.

"Small pox left him blind at four. Nevertheless he took up the career of a student, learned by heart the manuscripts that he liked in the libraries, traveled widely to hear famous masters, and returned to his village.

"During the next fifteen years his annual annual income was thirty dinars, some twelve dollars a month, which he shared with servant and guide. His poems won him fame but as he refused to write encomiums, he nearly starved.

"In 1008 he visited Baghdad, was honored by poets and scholars and perhaps picked up among the freethinkers of the capital some of the skepticism that spices his vese. In 1010 he went back to al-Ma'arratu, became rich, but lived to the end with the simplicity of a sage.

"He was a vegetarian a l'outrance, avoiding not only flesh and fowl, but milk, eggs, and honey as well. To take any of these from the animal world, he thought, was rank robbery. On the same principle he rejected the use of animal skins, blamed ladies for wearing furs, and recommended wooden shoes.

"He died at eighty-four. A pious pupil relates that the poets followed his funeral, and eighty-four savants recited eulogies at his grave.

"We know him now chiefly through the 1592 short poems called briefly Luzumiyyat (Obligations). Instead of discussing woman and war, like his fellow poets, al-Ma'arri deals boldly with the most basic questions. Should we follow revelation, or reason? Is life worth living? Is there a life after death? Does God exist?

"Every now and then the poet professes his orthodoxy. He warns us, however, that this is a legitimate precaution against martyrdom, which was not to his taste. He deprecates indiscriminate honesty. 'Do not acquaint rascals with the essence of your religion, for so you expose yourself to ruin.'

"In simple fact al-Ma'arri is a rationalist agnostic pessimist."

Your comments, please?

Robby

Jan Sand
February 18, 2005 - 01:27 am
Obviously sex is a third rail in American culture and this is true of both religious and secular areas. The open exposure of even secondary sexual organs in the popular media evokes the most stringent reactions in legal and popular expression which can only be compared to the reactions against the mindless btutality of terrorism and this stems from cultural input both in and outside religion. The ready hypocrisy of the public in general as demonstrated by the huge wealth and popularity of the pornographic industry is perhaps re-enforced by religious restrictions but the problem is much larger.

Malryn (Mal)
February 18, 2005 - 02:18 am

This country was founded on Puritanism, and it exerts an influence today. What's that have to do with the Arabic poet, Abu'l-'Ala al-Ma'arri, whom Durant described as a rationalist agnostic pessimist? I'd like to read some of his Obligations poems. Wonder if they're on the web?

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
February 18, 2005 - 02:22 am

"The world holds two classes of men -- intelligent men without religion, and religious men without intelligence."

~Abu'l-Ala-Al-Ma'arri, Syrian poet 973-1057

Malryn (Mal)
February 18, 2005 - 02:29 am
So, too, the creeds of man: the one prevails
Until the other comes; and this one fails
When that one triumphs; ay, the lonesome world
Will always want the latest fairytales.




Among the crumbling ruins of the creeds
The Scout upon his camel played his reeds
And called out to his people -- "Let us hence!
The pasture here is full of noxious weeds.






Hanifs* are stumbling, Christians all astray
Jews wildered, Magians far on error's way.
We mortals are composed of two great schools
Enlightened knaves or else religious fools.


~Abu'l-Ala-Al-Ma'arri

  • Hanifs = Muslims
  • Jan Sand
    February 18, 2005 - 02:46 am
    Mal

    May one disagree from a contemporary platform without offending your conception of a proper discussion?

    Malryn (Mal)
    February 18, 2005 - 03:29 am

    JAN:

    As ROBBY suggested, I keep in mind the topics in GREEN in the heading at the top of this page.

    Mal

    Jan Sand
    February 18, 2005 - 04:47 am
    Mal

    Then it's good to know that one may discuss poetry and philosophy in Islam and how it may be related to current views.

    robert b. iadeluca
    February 18, 2005 - 05:48 am
    Perhaps similarly to those freethinking Arabic poets, EMILY DICKINSON believed in God but said she was not religious.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    February 18, 2005 - 05:58 am
    Here are some essays on FREEDOM OF THOUGHT. As usual, consider the source of the links.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    February 18, 2005 - 06:20 am
    JAN:

    The only affiliation I have with this discussion (besides a previous great fondness for it and the people who were in it) is as a participant. Former participant, I should say. You rule, man.

    Now I'm going to bow out and let you and the others carry on until such time when I may think it's safe to return.

    Sorry for the interruption, ROBBY. I have too much to do and think about to be in a place that has begun to make me feel uncomfortable.

    Mal

    Jan Sand
    February 18, 2005 - 07:18 am
    Mal

    Your withdrawal was absolutely not the aim of my comments and if I have offended you I apologise. I sensed that you had some rather basic objections to my submissions but I had difficulty in understanding why you found what I said objectionable.

    Your contributions to the discussions have obviously been more enriching and and of a wider spectrum than have my own and I certainly do not want to be responsible for the loss to the group of your presence.

    Our differences should not subject the group to your absence. I seem to be somehow saddled with attitudes that create dissension and this was the reason I withdrew earlier. I re-entered with the hopes that I might be able to maintain a diplomatic presention of my ideas and I seem to have been sensationally unsuccessful in this endeavor.

    Please reconsider your decision to withdraw. I do not want to rupture the quality and the lively interest of the group in a worthwhile series of discussions and so will no longer submit any further comment. We are evidently incompatible.

    winsum
    February 18, 2005 - 11:02 am
    the poet Abu'l-'Ala al-Ma'arri reminds me of one I know well. In fact I put up a page for him at my site. They might very well have come out of the same cave long ago except that one of them is contemporary and here.

    meet Jan Sand at Claire's Place.

    http://www.geocities.com/artetal/jansand.html



    Justin I believe that although religion is useful and helpful to some people that on balance it has created more problems than it has solved. I like your post. . . . Claire

    Shasta Sills
    February 18, 2005 - 02:37 pm
    The blind poet, al-Ma'arri, wrote about philosophical questions because he was not distracted by all the visual things that the rest of us focus on. They say Homer was blind but I find that hard to believe. He described too many things that a blind man would not know about. I like Jan Sand's poems. Some of them are delightfully funny and others are frighteningly sad.

    JoanK
    February 18, 2005 - 04:20 pm
    Mal: you've been in this discussion forever (much longer than I have) and it wouldn't be the same without you. I can't believe that a few posts would drive you away: just about everything shows up here sooner or later (as it should).

    Jan: you are newer, but I value your comments too. I don't see any reason why we all have to agree with each other -- it would be a very dull discussion if we did.

    This is an experiment in being able to talk about real issues that we all feel strongly about and often disagree strongly, and yet keep our respect for one another. I know I respect and am glad to have heard from every person in this discussion, including those I disagree with. If two of our most articulate participants drop out, I would consider this a major failure.

    robert b. iadeluca
    February 18, 2005 - 04:39 pm
    Relax everyone. No one is dropping out.

    Those who participated in the third volume, "Caesar and Christ," may be interested in what is happening to the EASTERN BRANCH OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    February 18, 2005 - 04:43 pm
    Not to mention what is happening to the WESTERN BRANCH OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE.

    Robby

    Justin
    February 18, 2005 - 06:13 pm
    Religion reaches a zenith today while probing the depths of hell. Lead stories in east and west are concerned with sex abuse and celibate clergy. A second story in my local paper is headlined " Vatican Offers Class about Satanism." Father Nanni teaches exorcism at the Pontifical Academy in Rome.He says,he performs about 20 exorcisms per year.

    This fellow must show the movie the Exorcist as basic training. Robby, I'm sorry, but this has to be a joke.

    Fifi le Beau
    February 18, 2005 - 07:38 pm
    I love Durant's description of al Ma'arri as a "rationalist, agnostic, pessimist." Al Ma'arri is my kind of guy, I've been described that way myself by well meaning friends. They prefer to make me an agnostic to keep the door open.

    I also like his explanation of why he sometimes professed orthodoxy, such as the fact that martyrdom was not to his taste. I am sure in his day and time unless there were occasional bows to Islam, his head would have come off.

    That of course is no longer the case, at least in the United States and much of the west. I see from Robby's link on Greece and the Orthodox church that they are no longer silent to being scammed. I couldn't help but laugh out loud at the picture of the 91 year old Bishop in bed with the young girl. It's a good thing she brought her camera along for the tryst.

    The abuse of children by Catholic priests, which is receiving much press at the moment, is just now shinning a light on a problem that has been around since the beginning of Christianity. It is world wide and not just in the United States.

    The Protestant churches have their own fallen leaders, and sex and theft scams. They are paraded out in the local news quite often in every nook and cranny of the world.

    The muslims and Islam have their own problems. Their holy sites are in Saudi Arabia and run by the ruling Saudi King and the 5,000 princes. The king and the princes do not allow any criticism in that country, but the rest of the world knows them as playboy despots, and there seems to be no vice or depravity they won't partake of while hiding under pious religious bigotry.

    Durant says that he would be seen as perhaps not giving enough coverage to Islam in this volume. He does not cover much of the rule of the Caliphs and the despotism they brought to Islam, but he does give us a glimpse into the depravity that befell the successors. In the beginning they simply killed everyone who could claim the title down to babies. Then they threw them all in prisons and by the time they took the title, most had been driven insane from years of total confinement.

    Wouldn't it be wonderful to unlock all those libraries in Rome, Istanbul, Mecca, and other religious sites to translate all the tons of materials in those depositories and find out what was really written and how they handled the thefts, murders, rapes, and crimes of every description the leaders had imposed upon the sheep.

    Fifi

    3kings
    February 18, 2005 - 07:59 pm
    ROBBY you say no one is dropping out, so it will be ok then for me to ask MAL if she knows who was the translator of those verses by Abu'l-Ala-Al-Ma'arri ?

    The metre is strongly reminisent of my favourite version of Fitzgerald's several attempts at 'The Rubaiyat'.

    This of course, is no good reason to think the translation of Ma'arri, was done by the same man. Then again, it may have been. Just curious, but not wanting to encroach on MAL'S very heavy work load. +++ Trevor

    Fifi le Beau
    February 18, 2005 - 09:51 pm
    Trevor, here is a website called Institute for Secular Islam. It's director is Irfan Khawaja a professor of philosophy.

    He has some of al Ma'arri's poetry and information on his life. He discusses translations of the poetry and letters by Nicholson who was the first to translate to English at the beginning of the century. (I assume that would be the last century, not the current one) In fact the book listed for sale online gives a publication date of 1898.

    http://www.secularislam.org/skeptics/almaarri.htm

    Fifi

    Bubble
    February 19, 2005 - 01:36 am
    Justin, exorcism was (or maybe still is?) part of Judaism amd I was told that my maternal grandfather was a rabbi doing it very successfully.

    Jews from North African origins often wear (or have babies wear) cameas written by famous rabbis and said to protect against all kind of evils and mainly evil eye. Why not, if it makes them feel safer?

    robert b. iadeluca
    February 19, 2005 - 04:35 am
    "An early Persian historian assures us that there were then 'four hundred poets in constant attendance on Sultan Mahmud.'

    "It should have been an unsurpassable barrier, but Firdausi succeeded in interesting the vizier, who brought the immense manuscript to the Sultan's attention. Mahmud (says one account) gave the poet comfortable quarters in the palace, turned over to him reams of historical material, and bade him incorporate these in the epic.

    "All variations of the story agree that Mahmud promised him a gold dinar ($4.70) for each couplet of the revised poem. For an unknown time Firdausi labored. At last (c.1010) the poem reached its final form in 60,000 couplets, and was sent to the Sultan.

    "When Mahmud was about to remit the promised sum, certain couriers protested that it was too much, and added that Firdausi was a Shi'ite and Mutazilite heretic.. Mahmud sent 60,000 silver dirhems ($30,000). The poet in anger and scorn, divided the money between a bath attendant and a sherbet seller and fled to Herst.

    "He hid for six months in a bookseller's shop until Mahmud's agents, instructed to arrest him, gave up the search. He found refuge with Shariyar, prince of Shirzad in Taharistan. There he composed a bitter satire on Mahmud. Shariyar, fearful of the Sultan, bought the poem for 100,000 dirhems and destroyed it.

    "If we may believe these figures, and our equivalent, poetry was one of the most lucrative professions in medieval Persia. Firdausi went to Baghdad and there wrote a long narrative poem, Yusuf and Zuleika, a variant of the story of Joseph and Potiphar's wife. Then, an old man of seventy six, he returned to Tus. Ten years later Mahmud, struck by the vigor of a couplet that he heard quoted, asked the author's name. When he learned that it was by Firdausi he regretted his failure to reward the poet as promised. He despatched to Firdausi a caravan carrying 60,000 gold dinars' worth of indigo, and a letter of apology.

    "As the caravan entered Tus it encountered the poet's funeral (1020?)."

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    February 19, 2005 - 07:27 am
    Here is a link to what is currently happening to the Shi'ites on their HOLY DAY and note that Firdausi, the poet, did not receive his promised sum because he was a Shi'ite.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    February 19, 2005 - 07:31 am
    Here are the details about ASHROURA, SHI'ITE HOLY DAY.

    Robby

    Scrawler
    February 19, 2005 - 11:36 am
    "Our differences define us, but our common humanity can redeem us. We just have to open our hearts." The above quote came from an article in "AARP Magazine March/April 2005" by Karen Armstrong. The article continues:

    "Psychologist Carl Jung once said that a great deal of institutional religion seems designed to prevent the faithful from having a spiritual exprience. Instead of teaching people how to live in peace, religious leaders often concentrate on marginal issues: Can women or gay people be ordained as priests or rabbis? Is contraception permissible? Is evolution compatible with first chapter of Genesis? Instead of bringing people together, these distracting preoccupation actually encourage policies of exclusion, since they tend to draw attention to the differences between "us" and "them."

    "...at the core, all the great world faiths - including Confucianism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam - agree on the supreme importance of compassion. The early sages and prophets all taught their follwers to cultivate a habit of empathy for all living beings.

    Why, then, do supposedly "religious" leaders declare war in God's name? And why do some people use "God" to give a sacred seal of approval to their own opinions?"

    "The essential dynamic of compassion is summed up in the golden rule, first enunciated by Confucius in about 500 B.C.E.: "Do not do to others as you would not have done to you."

    "The Buddha also taught a verson of the golden rule. He used to advise his monks and lay followers to undertake meditative exercies called The Immeasurables. They had to send out positive thoughts of compassion, benevolence, and sympathy to the four corners of the earth, not omitting a single creature from this radius of concern."

    "Rabbi Hillel, the older contemporay of Jesus, taught the golden rule. "That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the Torah; the rest is commentary; go and learn it!"

    "Jesus taught the golden rule in this way: he told his followers to love even their enemies and never to judge or retaliate. If somebody struck them on the face, they must turn the other cheek."

    Islam is also committed to the compassionate ethic. The bedrock message of the Koran is an insistence that it is wrong to build up a private fortune, and good to share your wealth fairly in order to create a just and decent society where poor and vulnerable people are treated with respect. On the Last Day the one question that God will ask Muslims is whether they have looked after the widows, the orphans, and the oppressed, and if they have not, they cannot enter Paradise."

    "Why was there such unanimous agreement on the primacy of compassion? Truly religious people are pragmatic. The early prophets and sages did not preach the discipline of empathy because it sounded edifying, but because experience showed that it worked..."

    Could the solution be this simple? If we ALL practice the golden rule will this bring us ALL closer together? "Our differences [may] define us but our COMMON HUMANITY can reddem us [if we only try]. We just have to open our hearts [to ALL others].

    Justin
    February 19, 2005 - 04:42 pm
    Bubble; Rabbi Jesus also cured people of demons. There were several as I recall. Mary Magdellan was one possessed by seven devils.Both Luke and Mark link her with "evil spirits and infirmities." Later Christians envisioned Mary's devils as sexual in nature but they might well have been psychological infirmities. Jesus cast them into swine who in turn "ran violently down the hill into the sea." Matthew and Luke both describe a woman who suffered from an "issue of blood" for twelve years. Jesus the healer "cures " her when she touches his garment. These women and "the adulterous woman" are later conflated into the promiscous Magdalen by an early Pope. I am not sure which one. .

    Justin
    February 19, 2005 - 04:51 pm
    Scrawler: Karen Armstrong delivered a worth while message to the older generation when she spoke of the Golden Rule and when she alerted AARP readers to the dangers of listening blindly to those who contribute to the formation of red and blue States.

    Justin
    February 19, 2005 - 08:40 pm
    I just witnessed the Chinese New Year Parade in San Francisco. It featured an enormous display of fireworks to chase away the demons and particularly to chase away an enormous dragon and accompanying lions. More exorcism. Since I first noticed Father Nonne's Vatican class in exorcism I have seen exorcists on every side.First Bubble's ancestor appeared. Then came Jesus, the Mayans, and now the Chinese. I am surrounded by exorcists. It serves me justly for being so smug about these things.

    winsum
    February 19, 2005 - 11:57 pm
    from the link on secular muslim .thinkers

    From al-Ma'arri"For religion is a fable invented by the ancients, worthless except for those who exploit the credulous masses:"



    even then there were rational not necessarily pessimistic .thinkers I know that I have hope that reason will prevalil. It's not a pessamistic thing to disbelieve in fairy tales. . . . . .

    and Justine with all this emphasis on exorcism, they'll be exorciseing free thinkers next. Claire

    robert b. iadeluca
    February 20, 2005 - 03:54 am
    Iranians are now turning to the SUPERNATURAL.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    February 20, 2005 - 04:01 am
    The SUPERNATURAL also reigns strong in Hong Kong.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    February 20, 2005 - 04:33 am

    The Religious Face of Iraq

    The Grand Ayatullah Sistani's interpretation of Islamic laws

    robert b. iadeluca
    February 20, 2005 - 04:40 am
    Is "INTELLIGENT DESIGN" truly intelligent? As we read and comment on this essay, let us keep in mind that there are many different beliefs among our participants and courtesy, consideration and respect is the by-word. Nevertheless, we are in the midst of a volume entitled "The Age of Faith" so the presentation of this article is appropos.

    Robby

    Bubble
    February 20, 2005 - 04:49 am
    Re post #46, The Japanese have Wishing poles.

    A Japanese sect that visits Israel yearly jas dedicated two such poles here in a kibbutz and a moshav (villages). They are brightly colored and if you make a wish touching them and fervently concentrating, your wish should come true, or so they believe.

    I will try to go there one of these days and take a picture to show. Bubble

    ALF
    February 20, 2005 - 06:07 am
    For centuries man has endeavored to "find the answers." The supernatural seems to grow year after year as we read more about the paranormal, psychic experiences and transcendental meditation. They even offer college courses in some of these phenomena. Who amongst us hasn't involved themselves at some point in their life in some of these legendary , unearthly rituals? I've had tea leaves read, astrology charts reviewed, palmistry, tarot cards, geomancy. I've read about sacred stones that can foretell ones future. The best one I've ever heard was the inspection of belly-buttons to determine one's plight. The point, to me, is that because life is so obtuse and mystifying, the unkown frightens us. We want to know the secrets. I can understand the middle easterners concerns and wishes to stave off demons.

    robert b. iadeluca
    February 20, 2005 - 06:18 am
    Andy! Good to see you participating! Please continue sharing your thoughts.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    February 20, 2005 - 06:19 am
    Art

    robert b. iadeluca
    February 20, 2005 - 06:28 am
    "When the Arabs invaded Syria their sole art was poetry. Mohammed was believed to have forbidden sculpture and painting as accomplices of idolatry -- and music, rich silks, gold and silver ornaments as epicurean degeneracy. Although all these prohibitions were gradually overcome, they almost confined Moslem art in this period to architecture, pottery, and decoration.

    "The Arabs themselves, so recently nomads or merchants, had no mature facility in art. They recognized their limitations and employed the artists and artisans -- adapted the art forms and traditions -- of Byzantium, Egypt, Syria, Mesopotamia, Iran, and India. The Dome of the Rock at Jerusalem and the Mosque of Walid II at Damascus were purely Byzantine, even in their decoration.

    "Farther east the old Assyrian and Babylonian tile decoration, and current Armenian and Nestorian church forms, were adopted.

    "In Persia, after much destruction of Sasanian literature and art, Islam saw the advantages of the column cluster, the pointed arch, the vault, and those styles of floral and geometrical ornament which finally flowered into the arabesque.

    "The result was no mere imitation but a brilliant synthesis that justified all borrowing. From the Alhambra in Spain to the Taj Mahal in India, Islamic art overrode all limits of place and time, laughed at distinctions of race and blood, developed a unique and yet varied character, and expressed the human spirit with a profuse delicacy never surpassed."

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    February 20, 2005 - 06:36 am

    Alhambra interior vaults

    Alhambra interior

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    February 20, 2005 - 07:15 am
    Ah! beautiful Alhambra which I had the pleasure of seeing about three years ago in Granada. How magnificent it is Mal, thank you. Spain conserves its Moorish heritage with reverence, it adds something special to Spain that other countries of Europe are missing.

    The second link didn't work for me Mal.

    winsum
    February 20, 2005 - 07:38 am
    breath taking Mal. the second worked but wasn't as interesting. I"d still like to see what happened in the forbidden painting and sculpture arenas. . . . . claire

    Bubble
    February 20, 2005 - 07:52 am
    I heard a very interesting talk last night about art in the religious circles here. Apparently a religious school has started teaching art alongside the bible studies, all following the strict principles of course. The speaker compared the jewish art and Islamic art, saying that because the precepts were much stricter in Islam, art developped there with the script being used to create beauty while in Judaism the taboo on representation of nature was not as strong and allowed to create pictures as long as they were not totally figurative and would not be objects of adoration. That is why statues or paintings always had a small defect in them to show their humane nature. The art school has a rabbi on site to advise on what is allowed and what is not. I wonder if this does not cramp the inspiration?

    winsum
    February 20, 2005 - 08:20 am
    inspiration is different for different artistts. it would cramp me but not the ones that like to show history. . . . as in the renissanse (spelling) they were chronicles of happenings and largely illustrative. Then abstract artists aren't showing anything that could be viewed as an object although with imagination you could probably find a point of view so the are probably safe. . .action painters if that is allowed within the structure would still be free. it all depends. . . . Claire

    robert b. iadeluca
    February 20, 2005 - 08:46 am
    Mahlia emailed me to say that she just had eye surgery and she is still having difficulty seeing, especially the color green. We all wish her a speedy recovery and are looking forward to her continued postings.

    Robby

    JoanK
    February 20, 2005 - 11:44 am
    We all wish Mahlia the best. I've missed her and was afraid we had driven her away.

    It is a little ironic to complain that religious rules have limited artistic expression, when so much of the great art we have inherited was inspired by religion.

    The Christian religious paintings are just as stylized and circumscribed in subject in a different way as the Islamic art. Has anyone read a fascinating book "Rembrandt's Eyes"? Rembrandt worked during the height of the religious wars in Europe, and the author does an interesting comparison between the paintings of Rembrandt, working in a Protestant city, and those of another artist working in a Catholic area. The whole approach was different.

    Bubble
    February 20, 2005 - 02:12 pm
    About beliefs and supernatural, I happened on this page:

    http://www.ne.jp/asahi/see/me/

    "Originally we all had 12 strands of DNA which wove us into Universe. Now, as we function on two or fewer strands, most people perceive themselves as separate from Creation."

    12 strands of DNA instead of the 2 we have?

    Shasta Sills
    February 20, 2005 - 02:13 pm
    I was shocked when I saw that first Alhambra shot. It's like a cluster of giant candy canes.

    Justin
    February 20, 2005 - 03:26 pm
    Robby's headline says'" Iranians now turning to the supernatural. Where have they been all along if not relying upon the supernatural? Actually, I am pleased to see tarot cards accepted by Muslima's as an alternative to the Qur'an. It is an indication that these folks are not focused automatons.

    Tarot card responses can be a little more intimate than the Qu'ran especially for women. Many Islamic women are not sufficiently educated to read the Qu'ran.It comes to them second hand through their husbands. The tarot card user, on the other hand, usually addresses a victim directly and though he/she deals in generalities they are applied to the hearer as personal intimate revelation.

    Justin
    February 20, 2005 - 03:36 pm
    Apparently some of the Ayatollah's Fatwas are so raunchy they may not be printed in the Washington Post, a family newspaper. Anatomy, particularly female anatomy, seems to be verbotten in the Post. Perhaps it is not just anatomy that is involved but what one does with it that the Post feels constrained to avoid.

    Justin
    February 20, 2005 - 03:47 pm
    I think I would like to argue that natural selection is intelligent design. Who can argue that the tree that bends to a prevailing wind is not making an intelligent response. Natural design is simply a response to natural forces. If we call that response an ordered response it is so because we call it that. I refer, as I often do, to my old friend Duchamp who says art is what I call art and why not.

    Sunknow
    February 20, 2005 - 03:49 pm
    I assume the suicide bombings that have taken place the past few days/weeks are carried out by "true believers" of the Qu'ran. I wonder if those poor downtrodden souls would not be better off believing in "tarot cards".

    Has anyone heard if ANY of these, mostly young men, are ever the sons of the Rich and Powerful? Or are they the children of only the poor, without means to buy their way into what they believe is heaven? What a terrible deception to pass on to children.

    Sun

    Justin
    February 20, 2005 - 05:22 pm
    Ah, yes, the Alhambra. It's interior is a maze of decorated columns supporting stalagtite vaulting. Stalagtite vaulting is an archtectural device used to convert a square base into a round to support a dome. Those of us who were in the Brunellechi discussion will recall that this problem was the concern of the Florentian building committee. It's too bad that discussion was unable to focus well. The Saracen solution to the problem is actually Assyrian and not Islamic.

    The followers of the prophet lived primarily in tents and thus brought no style of architectiure with them when they invaded other countries. They used what they found on the ground. However the Saracens did contribute a decorative style and that is what we see in the Alhambra and in the Cordoba Mosque. There is much use of the pointed arch and it has become a symbol for the Faith. Surface decoration with geometric forms is common because the Qur'an prohibited animal forms. Stalagtite column capitals do not expand to fit the arcades above them as do the Greek and Roman capitals but remain narrow and well decorated.

    Fifi le Beau
    February 20, 2005 - 05:47 pm
    The conversation seems to be about deviation from the religion of choice or state sponsorship. There are probably a few who read and follow the text of their professed religion, but they seem like a tiny minority to me.

    Most people who profess to be Christians would probably disagree with me, but how many actually follow the teachings of Christ? I don't see how anyone could profess to be a Christian if they didn't follow the teaching of Christ.

    Here is an article which touches on that subject.

    Jesuit speaker routed

    Fifi

    Justin
    February 20, 2005 - 05:57 pm
    Mahlia, sorry to hear about you eye problem.I thought you said you were having a catarac removal and an implant. Mine was done about fifteen years ago. Slick as a whistle. I hope your result was as mine.Wonderful and without hitch.

    Justin
    February 20, 2005 - 06:45 pm
    Fifi: In my judgement the evangelical right seems to be applying some of Jesus' message. On the one hand he says the peacemakers are blessed but on the other hand he violently tosses out the money changers. The message is mixed.

    The Jesuit speaker at the Baptist college has in my judgement one thing on his side. We lied to justify an invasion of a peaceful country and killed 100,000 of it's inhabitants in the process. That's a shameful action and I am embarassed by it.

    There is a need to control nuclear material to prevent rogue nations from using the material to attack others and military action can be justified in extreme cases but Iraq was not an extreme case. Saddam just could not afford to let his neighbors know he was bereft of nuclear power. Can you imagine the US Senate giving an executive the power to wage war to bring about a democracy in another country.

    3kings
    February 20, 2005 - 07:01 pm
    Quote from JUSTIN :- "Saddam just could not afford to let his neighbors know he was bereft of nuclear power."

    Well, I distinctly heard, night after night on tv, spokesmen for Saddam repeatedly state " We have no weapons of mass destruction. "

    And I heard UN inspectors also, state, " We have found no evidence of WMD's "

    I wonder where the idea that Saddam was claiming that he did have WMD's, came from ? ++ Trevor

    JoanK
    February 20, 2005 - 07:01 pm
    However, you notice that even logical people can be illogical. The speaker said:" “Jesus says, ‘Blessed are the peacemakers,’ which means he does not say, ‘Blessed are the warmakers,’ which means, the warmakers are not blessed, which means warmakers are cursed, ". There are two logical errors in that one sentence.

    First :"he does not say, ‘Blessed are the warmakers,’ which means, the warmakers are not blessed". No, it doesn't. That's like saying "Fish can swim" and not saying "whales can swim" means that whales can't swim.

    Next "the warmakers are not blessed, which means warmakers are cursed, is also a logical error. It assumes that everyone is either blessed or cursed, something we have no reason to assume.

    Lack of logic is not confined to Bush followers, much as I would like to think so.

    Justin
    February 20, 2005 - 08:55 pm
    When Saddam said" I have no weapons of mass destruction, no one believed him because he would not allow full investigation. He knew that so long as he continued to resist inspection all would think he had the goods.

    Justin
    February 20, 2005 - 10:04 pm
    Also, Joan, this guy is a Jesuit-a man well trained in logic. It is also interesting to note that Will Durant was Jesuit trained at St. Peter's College in Jersey City, New Jersey.

    Justin
    February 21, 2005 - 02:10 pm
    Joan; One additional thought about the Jesuit article: He talks about the Pharisee bad guys when he really means the Sadducees. The Pharicees were the guys who spoke up for Peter and got him off with a few stripes. The Pharicees were the thoughtful ones- the pilpulers. Their role in NT is against their character. The Sadducees were in tight with the Romans, not the Pharisees.

    3kings
    February 21, 2005 - 08:18 pm
    JOAN I think we can safely assume that when Jesus said "Blessed are the peacemakers," that he also meant that their opposites, the war makers, were no so blessed.

    I do not feel it is illogical, or unsafe to make such an assumption.

    Just as when someone says, A is older than B, it also means that B is younger than A. It is surely not necessary to belabour the obvious.++ Trevor

    Fifi le Beau
    February 21, 2005 - 08:53 pm
    I have no interest in internal religious squabbles. My interest lies in whether or not they follow their creed and the words of their gods.

    History says that man follows man within their own time and place regardless of their religion and its rules and regulations. The masses make men their gods, and ignore any and all commandments from some unseen unknown deity.

    A small vignette from Generation Kill. A young soldier had witnessed and been part of killing unarmed civilians. He was upset and went to the chaplain for guidance. He asked if it was ever okay to kill. The chaplain said 'yes' as long as you don't enjoy it.

    Wars are run by men making up their own rules as they go along. Hormones and third grade immaturity have a bigger influence than any allegiance to a god.

    Semper Eadem.

    Fifi

    robert b. iadeluca
    February 22, 2005 - 03:58 am
    Durant continues discussing Art.

    "Moslem architecture, like most architecture in the Age of Faith, was almost entirely religious. The dwellings of men were designed for brief mortality but the house of God was to be, at least internally, a thing of beauty forever.

    "Nevertheless, though the remains are scant, we hear of bridges, aqueducts, fountains, reservoirs, public baths, fortresses, and turreted walls built by engineer-architects who, in the first centuries after the Arab conquest were in many cases Christian, but in after centuries were predominantly Moslem.

    "The Crusaders found excellent military architecture at Aleppo, Baakbek, and elsewhere in the Islamic East, learned there the uses of machicolated walls, and took from their foes many an idea for their own incomparable castles and forts.

    "The Aleazar at Seville and the Alhambra at Granada were fortresses and palaces combined."

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    February 22, 2005 - 04:31 am

    Alcazar exterior

    Alcazar bedroom

    Alcazar throne room

    Malryn (Mal)
    February 22, 2005 - 04:33 am

    Alcazar Galeria

    Alcazar Galeria 2

    Justin
    February 22, 2005 - 12:42 pm
    My local newspaper reports an Associated Press story about a tribal council in Pakistan ordering the betrothal of a 2 year old girl to a man 40 years older to punish her uncle for an aledged affair with the mans wife. In a previous case, the coucil near Multan, ordered a woman gang raped as punishment for her brother's sexual relations with another woman.

    Is there anyway to explain such behavior?

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    February 22, 2005 - 02:19 pm
    Justin: "Is there anyway to explain such behavior?"

    In 2002, I wrote about Passion in the Democracy in America discussion and for me passion explains such behaviors.

    Passion is the writer of history. Passion drives populations, it is their fuel, their 'raison d'être'. It propels mankind to great as well as appalling acts. It is the strongest emotion in the young adult. It drives them to volunteer for a war not even on their own territory. It seems to be a male thing. Males went to test their skills risking their life to satisfy their passion.

    Passion brings people to church and it makes the same people go to war for their religion. Anger over losing face triggers men to do atrocious act of violence on innocent little girls and that coupled with sexual drive becomes viciously cruel.

    Yet, it is the same passion that governs our life, take it away and we have a flat existence, one devoid of purpose and beauty. Passion directs the brush of great artists, performers, orators who touch the heart of masses to change the course of their life forever.

    It is the only way I can explain this behavior.

    Emotion rules over reason, always.

    robert b. iadeluca
    February 22, 2005 - 03:37 pm
    That's a beautiful posting, Eloise.

    Robby

    Justin
    February 22, 2005 - 06:55 pm
    Eloise: You always come up with a very human response. Passion must certainly be a part of acts of retribution.

    In this case "the council," a third party, was not assessing guilt or innocence. It was used to determine an appropriate punishment. The council resided 200 miles from the scene of the event and was apparently chosen for it's detachment.

    It is possible, I suppose, that these men of the council put themselves in the frame of mind of the hurt party and then tried to do what he would have wanted. Such punishments could only come from passionate people.

    I hope rational men would not do such atrocious things to an innocent woman and a child. These are the same people who, today, lop off a right hand for theft leaving the victim to starve to death in the midst of plenty. I find it very difficult to understand such brutality.

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    February 22, 2005 - 07:50 pm
    "It is possible, I suppose, that these men of the council put themselves in the frame of mind of the hurt party and then tried to do what he would have wanted."

    Exactly and they picked on the least important member of their society, a little girl, to achieve their end. The council had to act in accordance with the wishes of the hurt party or else, they could lose their job, if not their head. Today, governments act according to whoever fill their pockets.

    Sometimes I think of how lucky I am to have lived a life of plenty in complete safety surrounded by loved ones and I am aware that a very small percentage of people on the face of the earth can say that. -

    Justin
    February 22, 2005 - 10:27 pm
    The Qur'an rejects the notion that the deity must have a human face to be recognizable and understandable to followers. Mohammad prohibited use of human images to represent Allah and his daughter Aisha ruled against animal imagery. Mohammad was probably influenced in this decision by the Jewish concern expressed in the Mosaic laws against graven images. As a result, sculpture and painting failed to develop as art forms and builders of mosques were forced to develop other means of expression to create interest in their buildings. They resorted to geometric patterns of the kind that then was being used in textiles on rugs and tapistries. These forms have since been referred to as Arabic or Moorish. Good examples may be seen in Spain in the interior of the Mosque at Cordoba. Columns, capitals, flooring, and especially the dome of this building express these Islamic patterns.

    The Dutch Reformed Church in Holland in the Sixteenth Century, following a period of iconoclasm, adopted a completely white interior without statues or symbols for churches. It is the opposite solution to that drawn by Islamic mosque designers. However, Gerard Houckgeest in 1651 painted the interior of the New Church at Delft and gave it additional interest by adding a patterned floor.The painting is in the Mauritshuis in the Hague.

    The New Church at Delft and the Mosque at Cordoba are not quite comparable because the Dutch interior is uncluttered and the Mosque interior is a maze of columns but the artistic treatments are worthy of comparison.

    .

    robert b. iadeluca
    February 23, 2005 - 03:12 am
    "Of Umayyad palaces little survives except a country house at Qusayr Amra in the desert east of the Dead Sea where the ruins show vaulted baths and frescoed walls.

    "The palace of Adud ad-Dawla at Shiraz, we are assured, had 360 rooms, one for each day in the year, each painted in a unique color combination. One of its largest rooms was a library two stories high, arcaded and vaulted. Says an enthusiastic Moslem:-'There was no book on any subject of which there was not here a copy.'

    "Schedherazade's descriptions of Baghdad mansions are fiction, but suggest an ornate magnificence of internal decoration. Rich men had villas in the country as well as homes in the city. Even in the city they had formal gardens. But around their villas these gardens became 'paradises' -- parks with springs, brooks, fountains, tiled pool, rare flowers, shade, fruit, and nut trees, and usually a pavilion for enjoying the open air without the glare of the sun.

    "In Persia there was a religion of flowers. Rose festivals were celebrated with sumptuous displays. The roses of Shiraz and Firuzabad were world famous. Roses with a hundred petals were gifts grateful to a caliph or a king.

    "The houses of the poor were then, as they are now, rectangles of sun dried brick cemented with mud, and roofed with a mixture of mud, stalks, branches, palm leaves, and straw.

    "Better homes had an interior court with a water basin, perhaps a tree. Sometimes a wooden colonnade and cloister between court and rooms. Houses rarely faced or opened upon the street. They were citadels of privacy, built for security and peace. Some had secret doors for sudden escape from arrest or attack or for the inconspicuous entry of a paramour.

    "In all but the poorest houses there were separate quarters for the women, occasionally with their own court.

    "Rich houses had a complicated suite of bathrooms, but most dwellings had no plumbing. Water was carried in. Waste was carried out. Fashionable homes might have two stories, with a central living room rising to a dome, and a second-story balcony facing the court.

    "All except the poorest houses had at least one window grille (mashrabiy yah), a lattice of woodwork to let in light without heat, and allow the occupants to look out unseen. These grilles wre often elegantly carved and served as models for the stone or metal screens tht adorned the palace of the mosque.

    "There was no fireplace. Heat was provided by charcoal -burning portable braziers. Walls were of plaster, usually painted in many colors. Floors were covered with hand-woven rugs. There might be a chair or two but the Moslem preferred to squat.

    "Near the wall on three sides of the room the floor was raised a foot or so, forming a diwan and was furnished with cushions. There were no specific bedrooms. The bed was a mattress which, during the day, was rolled up and place in a closet, as in modern Japan. Furniture was simple. Some vases, utensils, lamps, and perhaps aniche for books.

    "The Oriental is rich inthe simplicity of his needs."

    I wonder if any of our troops overseas see the houses as described here?

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    February 23, 2005 - 07:33 am
    Ruins of a Umayyad palace

    Detail: Umayyad palace

    Detail 2: Umayyad palace

    Malryn (Mal)
    February 23, 2005 - 07:38 am
    Scroll down to see the Umayyad palace in Damascus

    Malryn (Mal)
    February 23, 2005 - 07:51 am
    Figurative art in secular contexts

    Umayyad palace ruins

    Umayyad palace ruins 2

    Malryn (Mal)
    February 23, 2005 - 09:01 am

    I wonder how much the passion Eloise mentions in her Post #82 has been the result of alcohol and drug consumption? We've certainly seen a lot of it in history, as researched and related by Will and Ariel Durant.

    Mal

    Bubble
    February 23, 2005 - 09:10 am
    Religious fanatics do not consume drugs and alcohol, and they sure dan be passionate in talks and principles!

    Jan Sand
    February 23, 2005 - 11:45 am
    I beg the pardon of all the participants here for utilizing this site for a personal communication. I have been in contact daily with Claire Reade through Hotmail. It seems that my total Hotmail capability has been disabled by a major glitch in the entire Hotmail system as all my other capabilities in the web remain operative. Claire frequently visits this site and I have imposed myself on this site to inform her of my e-mail being silenced. I am terribly sorry to have had to resort to this method of communication and hope I have offended no participants.

    robert b. iadeluca
    February 23, 2005 - 12:11 pm
    Emergencies happen, Jan. Rest easy!

    Robby

    Justin
    February 23, 2005 - 04:03 pm
    Mahlia: I am just starting to read Mahmood Mamdani's "Good Muslim,Bad Muslim". Any comments?

    Justin
    February 23, 2005 - 04:14 pm
    Every time I see the troops in action (on TV) they are either breaking into someone's garden apartment or forcibly opening a garage. The residents are in most cases Middle to lower middle class folk who could easily be taken for poor folk.Well paying jobs must be hard to find in Bagdad. These are the people who do all the fighting to protect their homes.

    robert b. iadeluca
    February 23, 2005 - 05:38 pm
    "For the poor and pious Moslem it ws enough that the mosque itself should be beautiful.

    "It was built with his labor and dirhems. It gathered up his arts and crafts and laid them like a rich carpet at Allah's feet. That beauty and splendor all men might enjoy.

    "Usually the mosque was situated near the market place, easily accessible. It was not always impressive from without. Except for its facade it might be indistinguishable from -- even physically attached to -- the neighboring structures. It was rarely built of any more lordly material than stucco-faced brick. Its functions determined its forms -- a rectangular court to hold the congregation -- a central basin and fountain for ablutions, a surrounding arcaded portico for shelter, shade and schools.

    "On the side of the court facing Mecca, the mosque proper, usually an enclosed section of the portico. It too was rectangular, allowing the worshipers to stand in long lines, again facing Mecca. The edifice might be crowned with a dome, almost always built of bricks, each layer projecting a bit inward beyond the layer beneath, with a surface of plaster to conceal the deviations.

    "As in Sasartian and Byzantine architecture, the transition from rectangular base to circular dome was mediated by pendentives or squinches. More characteristic of mosque architecture was the minaret (manara, a lighthouse).

    "Probably the Syrian Moslems developed it from the Babylonian ziggurat and the bell tower of Christian churches. The Persian Moslems took the cylindrical form from India, and the African Moslems were influencd in its design by the four-cornered Pharos or lighthouse of Alexandria. Perhaps the four corner towers of the old temple area at Damascus influenced the form.

    "In this early period the minaret was simple and mostly unadorned. Only in the following Centuries would it achieve the lofty slenderness, fragile balconies, decorative arcades, and faience surfaces that would lead Fergusson to call it 'the most graceful form of tower architecture in the world."

    Robby

    Justin
    February 23, 2005 - 06:19 pm
    I prefer Giotto's Campanile in Florence but then I have not seen all the minarets yet.

    JoanK
    February 23, 2005 - 07:31 pm
    "For the poor and pious Moslem it ws enough that the mosque itself should be beautiful"

    How does he know?

    winsum
    February 23, 2005 - 11:01 pm
    for all the images although one took so long to load that I had to give up on it. I think they are beautiful but then I love arches. I noticed that medallions are made of flowers and that there were animals shown also. Beautiful. . . . Claire

    Malryn (Mal)
    February 24, 2005 - 03:21 am
    "I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this life.... I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church."

    ~Tom Paine


    "Here is my creed. I believe in one God, Creator of the universe. That he governs it by his providence. That he ought to be worshipped. That the most acceptable service we render to him is doing good to his other children. That the soul of Man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them. As for Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think his system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupting changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble. I see no harm, however, in its being believed, if that belief has the good consequence, as it probably has, of making his doctrines more respected and better observed, especially as I do not perceive that the Supreme takes it amiss, by distinguishing the unbelievers in his government of the world with any particular marks of his displeasure."

    ~Benjamin Franklin

    "Jefferson thoroughly agreed with Franklin on the corruptions the teachings of Jesus had undergone. 'The metaphysical abstractions of Athanasius, and the maniacal ravings of Calvin, tinctured plentifully with the foggy dreams of Plato, have so loaded [Christianity] with absurdities and incomprehensibilities' that it was almost impossible to recapture 'its native simplicity and purity.' Like Paine, Jefferson felt that the miracles claimed by the New Testament put an intolerable strain on credulity. 'The day will come," he predicted (wrongly, so far), 'when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.' The Revelation of St. John he dismissed as 'the ravings of a maniac.' "

    Source:

    Our Godless Constitution

    robert b. iadeluca
    February 24, 2005 - 06:29 am
    "We probably owe this splendor of ornament to the Semitic prohibition of human or animal forms in art.

    "As if in compensation, the Moslem artist invented or adopted an overflowing abundance of non-representational forms. He sought an outlet first in geometrical figures -- line, angle, square, cube, polygon, cone, spiral, ellipse, circle, sphere. He repeated these in a hundred combinations and developed them into swirls, guilloches, reticulations, entrelacs, and stars. Passing to floral forms, he designed, in many materials, wreaths, vines, or rosettes of lotus, acanthus, or palm tendrils or leaves.

    "In the tenth century he merged all these in the arabesque. To them all, as a unique and major ornament, he added the Arabic script. Taking usually the Kufic characters, he lifted them vertically, or expanded them laterally, or dressed them in flourishes and points, and turned the alphabet into a work of art.

    "As religious prohibitions slackened, he introduced new motifs of decoration by representing the birds of the air, the beasts of the field, of strange composite animals that dwelt only in his whimsical fantasy. His flair for adornment enriched every form of art -- mosaic, miniature, pottery, textiles, rugs.

    "In nearly every case the design had the disciplined unity of a dominant form or motif developed from center to border or from beginning to end, as in the elaboration of a musical theme. No material was thought too obdurate for such ornament. Wood, metal, brick, stucco, stone, terra cotta, glass, file, and faience became the vehicles of such a poetry of abstract forms as no art, not even the Chinese, had ever achieved before."

    Your comments about this art, please?

    Robby

    monasqc
    February 24, 2005 - 08:07 am
    The Taj Mahal is one of the marvels of the world isn't it?

    There are no words to describe it's beauty except the words Love and certainly Passion.

    Françoise

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    February 24, 2005 - 09:17 am
    and what better place than the Alhambra to see it. HERE "and turned the alphabet into a work of art."

    Inside this monument, especially when there are few visitors, we feel transported in time and in place. We are no longer part of the Western world, but a part of Islam, a world so unfamiliar to us it is disturbing.

    winsum
    February 24, 2005 - 11:03 am
    by what is handy. I found myself fascinated by the shapes of the south western American Indians and so studied with senor landivar who knew about the worlds indigenous pottery makers and taught me how to make them, so the forms are borrowed but the designs come spontaneously as with brush in hand I address the pot. I can understand how it felt to make hard edged geometric designs and eventually abandon them for the freedom of imagined creatures as well as real ones.

    Mine, made some years ago along with abstraction in my graphic work, are spontaneous explosions of non-objective art here at Claires Place

    http://www.geocities.com/artetal/pottery.html

    robert b. iadeluca
    February 24, 2005 - 11:16 am
    They are beautiful, Claire!! Click onto them, folks.

    Robby

    JoanK
    February 24, 2005 - 11:18 am
    Winsum: those designs are beautiful.

    I have long beein impressed at how bwaetiful arabic writing is. Funny, I never thought of it as part of a tradition of artistic development.

    winsum
    February 24, 2005 - 11:27 am
    is it the same as Persian script both are beautiful to me all those curves . . . . You will notice I used them on my pots.

    another aspect to the beauty of this work is the use of repetition an image by itself becomes much more than that if repeated over and over again. I noticed when I was trying to make a buck doing architectural renderings in pen and ink that my millions of little black dots brought a more positive response from my viewers than my more creative work. They just loved all those dots

    Here http://www.geocities.com/artetal/archtect.html . No it did't turn out to be a remunerative endeaver . . . claire

    JoanK
    February 24, 2005 - 11:40 am
    I love all those dots too.

    moxiect
    February 24, 2005 - 12:40 pm


    Claire, I admire your talent in pottery and your "little black dots"!

    Shasta Sills
    February 24, 2005 - 01:11 pm
    Claire has a multitude of talents. Her creativity just flows in all directions.

    Justin
    February 24, 2005 - 01:47 pm
    Claire: Your pot designs are just what I have been looking for. Southwestern motifs with curvilinear lines that tell people I know something about Eastern cursive writing. My mission red tiled patio would be proud to shelter pots like yours. The next time I travel south I will arrange to stop by "Claire's Pottery Place" and bring some home with me.

    Justin
    February 25, 2005 - 05:20 pm
    Music, like sculpture , was sinful in Islam.It was not forbidden by the Qur'an but the Prophet thought it was the devil's call to damnation when sung by promiscuous women. The theologians said music is not in itself sinful and thus allowed music to fill every stage of Muslim life.

    Eastern music does not have the sound of western music. The difference is structural. The instruments are similar-the lyre and the lute. Perhaps, Mal can find some for us to listen to before we move on to western Islam.

    Malryn (Mal)
    February 25, 2005 - 07:33 pm

    I just found out that ROBBY has a computer problem. He'll be back as soon as he can. In the meantime:
    So illuminated, Islamic architectures raised in Arabia, Palestine, Syria, Mesopotamia, Persia, Transoxiana, India, Egypt, Tunia, Sicily, Morocco, and Spain an endless chain of mosques in which masculine strength of outward form was always balanced by feminine grace and delicacy of interior ornament.

    The mosques of Medina, Mecca, Jerusalem, Ramleh, Damascus, Kufa, Basra, Shiraz, Nishapur, and Ardebil; the Mosque of Jafar at Baghdad, the great Mosque of Samarra, the Zakariyah Mosque of Aleppo, the Mosque of Ibn Tulun and the el-Azhar in old Cairo, the Great Mosque of Tunis, the Sidi Oqba Mosque of Quirwan, the Blue Mosque of Cordova------we can do no less, and no more, than name them, for of the hundreds such that were built in this period only a dozen remain distinguishable, indiscriminate time has leveled the rest through earthquake, negligence, or war.

    Persia alone----a fraction of Islam-----has yielded to recent research such unsuspected architectural splendor as marks a major event in our rediscovery of the past. The revelation was too long delays; already many masterpieces of Persian architecture had crumbled to earth.

    Muqaddasi ranked the mosque of Fasa with that of Medina, and the mosque of Turshiz with the Great Mosque of Damascus; the mosque of Nishapur, with its marble columns, gold tiles, and richly carved walls, was one of the wonders of the time; and 'no mosque in Khurasan or Sisan equaled in beauty the mosque of Herat.

    We may vaguely judge the exuberance and quality of Persian architecture in the ninth and tenth centuries from the stucco reliefs and carved columns and cpaitals of the mihrab in the Congregational Mosque at Nayin, now mostly destroyed, and the two lovely minarets that survive at Damghan. The Friday Mosque at Ardistan (1055) still shows a handsome mihrab and portal, and many elements that were to appear later in Gothic: pointed arches, groined pendentives, cross vaults, and ribbed dome.

    In these and most Persian mosques and palaces the building material was brick, as in Sumerian and Mesopotamian antiquity; stone was rare and costly, clay and heat were plentiful; yet the Persian artist transformed brick layers with light and shade, novel patterns, and divers attitudes into such a variety of decoration as that modest substance had never known before.

    Over the brick, in special places like portals, minbars, and mihrabs, the Persian porter laid varicolored mosqics and the most brilliant tiles; and in the eleventh century he made bright surfaces more resplendant sitll with luster-painted faïence. So every art in Islam humbly and proudly served the mosque.

    Malryn (Mal)
    February 26, 2005 - 03:14 am
    Persian art, Seljuk influence. Scroll down to see detail of Damghan minaret

    Malryn (Mal)
    February 26, 2005 - 03:17 am
    Sculpture, forbidden to make statues lest idolatry return, devoted itself to decorative reliefs. Stone was skillfully carved, and stucco, before it hardened, was shaped by hand into a rich diversity of designs. One impressive sample remains. At Mshatta, in the Syrian desert east of the Jordan, Walid II began, and left unfinished, a winter palace; along the lower surface of the facade ran a a sculptured stone frieze of extraordinary excellence----triangles, rosettes, and borders intricately carved with flowers, fruits, birds, beats and trailing arabesques, this chef-d'oeuvre, transferred to Berlin in 1904, has survived the Second World War.

    Woodworkers beuatified windows, doors, screens, balconies, ceilings, tables, lecterns, pulpits, and mihrabs with such exquisite carving as may be seen in a panel from Takrit in the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York. Workers in ivory and bone adorned mosques, Korans, furniture, utensils, and persons with carvings and inlays; from this age only one piece has come to us----an elephant rook (in the National Museum at Florence) precariously ascribed to the ninth century and to a chess set allegedly sent by Harun to Charlemagne.

    The metal workers of Islam acquired Sasanian techniques, made great bronze, brass, or copper lamps, ewers, bowls, jugs, mugs, cups, basins, and braziers; cast tham playfully into the forms of lions, dragons, sphinxes, peacocks, and doves, and sometimes incised them with exquisite patterns, as in a lacelike lamp in the Art Institute of Chicago.

    Some craftsmen filled incised designs with silver or gold, and made 'damascened' metal----an art practiced, not originated at Damascus. The swords of Damascus were of highly tempered steel, adorned with reliefs or inlaid with arabesques, scripts or other patterns in gold or silver threads. The metalworkers of Islam stood at the very top of their art.


    When the Moslem conquest settled down to cultural absorption, Mohammedan pottery found itself in Asia, Africa, and Spain, to five ceramic traditions: Egyptian, Greco-Roman, Mesopotamian, Persian, Chinese. Sarre discovered at Smnarra some tang pottery, including porcelan; and early Islamic-Persian wares were frankly copied from Chinese prototypes.

    Pottery centers developed at Baghdad, Smarra, Rayy, and many other towns. By the tenth century Persian potters were making almost every kind of pottery except porcelain, in every form from hand spittoons to monstrous vases 'large enough to hold at least one of the Forty Thieves.' At its best Persian pottery showed a subtlety of conception, a splendor of color, a refinement of workmanship, second only to the Chinese and Japanese; for six centuries it had no rival this side of the Pamirs. It was a favorite and congenial art with the Persians; aristocrats collected its masterpieces jealously, and poets like al-Ma'arri and Omar Khayyam found iin it many a meaphor for their philosophy. We hear of a ninth century banquet at which poems were composed and dedicated to the bowls that adorned the bowl.

    Comments?

    Malryn (Mal)
    February 26, 2005 - 03:29 am

    9th-10th Persian pottery (picture)

    Malryn (Mal)
    February 26, 2005 - 04:06 am

    Picture: Moroccan dagger with bone and coral inlay handle and sheath

    JoanK
    February 26, 2005 - 12:13 pm
    MAL: you've found us great links, as always. We were talking about music: if you go into the link on Seljuk influence, scroll to the bottom, and click on the backward arrow "Persian art through the ages", the new page plays Persian music.

    Shasta Sills
    February 26, 2005 - 02:18 pm
    I liked the Persian music. I wonder what kind of percussion instrument they are using. It sounds like a metallic drum.

    Justin
    February 26, 2005 - 04:25 pm
    Prior to the influence of Islam (On Resurection Day the punishment of image makers will be most severe)the Persians in the Sasssanian period solved the problem of placing a round dome on a square base. They used a squinch to create an octagon and then easily inscribed a circular form. Brunelleschi and his sponsors in Florence,a millennium later, sought a similar solution after waiting almost a century with an undomed building. The problem had also been solved previously by the builders of Santa Sophia in Constantinople who used pendatives to produce an octagonal shaped base.Travel was quite limited in those days and Bruelleschi had been able to research only Roman ruins for possible solutions to his problem. He knew nothing of the Persian solution or of the work at Santa Sophia which was now a Mosque.

    Justin
    February 26, 2005 - 06:13 pm
    The Moroccan dagger in bone and coral is an expression of Islamic emphasis on decoration.The piece is probably ceremonial. It's design is more ornamental than functional. The hand grip is pleasant to look upon but not well suited to gripping for use.The blade is very functional and probably made from the finest Damascus steel.The sheath is curvilinear and very ornamental. One would expect the blade to be curvilinear as well but it is not. I have often wondered how the Arabs retrieve a curved blade from a curved sheath in time to defend oneself.

    JoanK
    February 26, 2005 - 06:41 pm
    JUSTIN: for those of us who are architecturally ignorant what is a squinch? What are pendatives?

    Malryn (Mal)
    February 26, 2005 - 06:57 pm

    Scroll down for Squinch

    Diagram -- Pendentive

    Pendentive and dome

    JoanK
    February 26, 2005 - 07:04 pm
    Thanks, Mal.

    Justin
    February 26, 2005 - 09:11 pm
    Thanks Mal.

    3kings
    February 26, 2005 - 11:50 pm
    A straight blade in a curved scabbard. I've always struggled with trying to imagine how the two could fit together. Nice decoration though.

    Those diagrams show very clearly how a square tower, can support a dome, via a pendentive. A lot of these architectural terms are very new to me. Good diagrams are worth many words. Thank you Mal, for searching them out. ++ Trevor

    Bubble
    February 27, 2005 - 12:32 am
    Thanks Mal, these sites made it all clear for me too, it is hard to visualize when explained in words.

    Trevor, curved scabbard for straight blade makes me think of those very pointed women shoes these days, that accommodate normal feet. LOL

    Malryn (Mal)
    February 27, 2005 - 01:40 am

    Illustrated dictionary of architectural terms

    Malryn (Mal)
    February 27, 2005 - 02:05 am
    In that century the potters of Smarra and Baghdad distinguished themselves by making---perhaps inventing----lustered pottery: the decoration was painted in a metallic oxide upon the glazed coating of the clay, and the vessel was then submitted to a smoky and subdued second firing, which reduced the pigment to a thin layer of metal, and gave the glaze an iridescent glow. Lovely monochromes were produced in this manner, and still lovelier polychromes in gold, green, brown, yellow and red, in a hundred almost flid tints.

    The luster techniqe was applied als to the ancient Mesopotamian art of decorative tiles. The rich colors of these squares, and their harmonious combinations, gave unique splendor to the portals or mihrabs of a hundred mosques, and to many a palace wall.

    In the allied art of working glasss the Moslems inherited all the skill of Egypt and Syria. Brilliant lamp shades were made in glass adorned with medallioins, inscriptions, or floral designs, and perhaps in this period Syria inaugurated the art of enameled glass, which would reach its peak of excellence in the thirteenth century.

    ****
    When we recall the exuberant and omnipresent use of paintngs and sculpture in Catholic cathedrals, and its importance as a vehicle of Christian creed and story, we are struck by the agbsence of hte representative arts in Islam. The Koran had forbidden sculpture (v.92), but it had said nothing about painting. However, a tradition scribed to Aisha reported the Prophet as condemning pictures, too.

    Moslem law, Shi'ite as well as Sunnite, enforced the double prohibition. Doubtless Mohammed had been influenced by the Second Commandment and Judaic teaching, and partly by the notion that the artist, in giving form to living things, usurped the fucntion of the Creator. Some theologians relaxed the prohibition, permitting pictures of inanimate things; some winked at the portrayal of animal or human figures on objects intended only for secular use.

    Certain Umayyad caliphs ignored the prohibitions; about 712 Walid I adorned his summer palace at Qusayr Amra with Hellenistic frescoes depicting hunters, dancing girls, women bathings and himself on his throne. The Abbasid calphis professed piety, but had murals in their private chambers; al-Murasim hired artists, probably Christian, to paint hunting scenes, priests, and naked dancing girls on the walls of his palace at Samarra; and al-Murawkkil, who persecuted heretics, permitted Byzantine painters to add to these frescoes one that represented Christian monks and a Christian church.

    Mahmud of Ghazni decorated his palace with pictures of himself, his armies, and his elephants; and his son Masud, shortly before being deposed by the Seljuq Turks, covered the walls os his chambers at Herat with scenes based on Persian or Indian manuals of erotic tecniques. A story tells how, at the home of a vizier, two artists vied with each other in realistic representation: Ibn Aziz proposed to paint a dancing girl so that she would seem to be coming out of the wall; al-Qasir undertook a harder task----to paint her so that she would seem to be going into the wall. Each succeeded so well that the vizier gave them robes of honor, and much gold.

    Many other violations of the interdict could be listed; in Persia particularly we find living things pictured in joyous abundance, and in every form of pictorial art. Nevertheless the prohibition----supported by the people to the point of occasionally mutilating or destroying works of art----delayed the development of Islamic painting, largely restricted it to abstract ornament, almost excluded portraiture (yet we hear of forty portraits of Avicenna), and left artists completely dependent on royal or aristocratic patronage.



    Do as I say, not as I do?

    Malryn (Mal)
    February 27, 2005 - 02:10 am

    Persian luster ware

    Malryn (Mal)
    February 27, 2005 - 08:59 am

    I heard from ROBBY this morning. He still can't get online, and said he's going to have to get a "guru" in to figure out what's wrong with his computer.It might be up to a week before our Leader and Facilitator is back, so I guess we'll have to run with the ball, sans quarterback, and keep things going. I'll be here to pinch-hit as I can. (Did I just mix my metaphors?)

    Mal

    winsum
    February 27, 2005 - 10:39 am
    I tried both Seljuk and Persion art through the ages and only got pbs. . . could you provide a direct link? I think a lot of belly dance music would probably be like it and they use finger symbols. I tried it for a couple years. great fun and great exercisee.

    winsum
    February 27, 2005 - 10:42 am
    uses a much more detailed scale than ours and it varies. where we use twelve half tones in an octave they can be using twice that or more and they play extemporaneously like jazz. There is a lot of hand stiyle drumming too on small bongos.

    I got bit by an ethnomusicology course at UCLa while I was there and remember bits, but much of this came through the folk song revival. . .

    Greeek folk songs have an odd rhythm because we're used to multiples of twos and fours and sixes with their emphasis's and they are apt to use fives and sevens and nines. It may be the same number of beats per measure the the emphasis is different and often the harmonies as well. I love it

    Folk music my thing. . . I used to teach it in my guitar classes and I learned guitar from Bess Brown Haas who's father and brother brought us HOME ON THE RANGE. group singing extemporaeniously is great fun. . . . . Maybe that's why the powers that be were afraid of it. it's very powerful. . . . Claire

    winsum
    February 27, 2005 - 10:52 am
    that there are computers on line at some of the libraries and then there are always fellow users. jWe're going to miss him. . . . Claire

    Bubble
    February 27, 2005 - 11:04 am
    From BBC NEWS Thursday, 12 July, 2001, 15:34 GMT 16:34 UK

    Priceless ancient text reassembled

    "A collection of Persian religious manuscripts dating from the third century have been collected in one place for the first time in 70 years."

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/1435490.stm

    Shasta Sills
    February 27, 2005 - 01:58 pm
    That pottery was interesting, but not as beautiful as Greek pottery. I was also interested in al-Qasir's ability to paint a dancing girl disappearing into a wall. I think I could paint the girl coming out of the wall, but how would you paint her disappearing into the wall? I would like to see how he did that.

    Malryn (Mal)
    February 27, 2005 - 02:43 pm

    Let's not jump the gun, folks. The topic of MUSIC is coming up in a couple of days.

    CLAIRE, I don't know about ROBBY, but I wouldn't like to carry this heavy book back and forth from the library. The excerpts from The Age of Faith that you see here are typed word for word from the book.

    I'm a poor substitute, I know, but I'll have to do --- unless one of you wants to volunteer to spend time typing what Durant has written on this message board. ROBBY does a yeoman's job here. Believe me, I know.

    Mal

    Justin
    February 27, 2005 - 02:45 pm
    Shasta; Is a woman disappearing into a wall not the same as a woman coming out of a wall. The graphics problem is the same. The image of the woman is simply reversed- butt on one side, bust on the other.

    Justin
    February 27, 2005 - 02:57 pm
    Claire: Tell us about the Lustre ware Persian pottery. Some of it would be marketable today. The Greek shapes in polychrome and cobalt blue and white , particularly the Kraters for plants, the Amphoras with four handles for canes and unbrellas,and the kylixes for table centers. The final piece in the collection looks like it would make great table ware as a mixed dip holder or condiment dish. The could be sold as 9th century Persian replicas.

    winsum
    February 27, 2005 - 05:46 pm
    I chased down the correct page but idn't get to hear the music. Macs are sometimes limited in this world of pc's. tough. . . . claire

    winsum
    February 27, 2005 - 05:50 pm
    I know lusterware because I"ve tried it. very low fire with lead in the glaze and I forget what else that creates the affect. it's been a long time. I didn't see that collection you speak of Justin, but as for marketability there are factories of art potters throwing and forming one of a kind lines of pots for sale and the market is flooded. Impossible to get enough to pay for time which is one of the reasons I've given so much away.

    This was treue back in the sixties and seventies here in Los Angeles. I don't know about now. The moulded ware, if well designed and reduction fired is very attractive and saleable too. It's not a good business but it's a lovely craft and art. . . . claire

    winsum
    February 27, 2005 - 06:03 pm
    at THE COLLECTION

    the luster ware is described technically very well there except that it is reduction fired (carbon in the atmosphere from smoke and reduced allowance for the influx of oxygen).. The turquoise blue effect is copper in oxidation in a transparent glaze over any decoration applied in any technique. when copper is reduced it's red or black. a lot of this looks very familiar to me especially the splashy ones, more my style. the pots with the complete well drawn images really exist for that purpose and I like to think of them as being enough simply as vessels meant to hold something. I could go on and on ala durant because I loved glazes and glaze chemistry. each kiln load had a couple of dozen glaze tests. the cobalt blue on white is remeniscent of oriental porcelain which is white. . . and on and on. . . . claire

    winsum
    February 27, 2005 - 06:09 pm
    I certainly appreciate your efforts but may I suggest that you give us a little less at a time, not only for you but for me. or let us just play with what we have if this is too great a burden. great job with the links . . . thank you . . . claire

    Malryn (Mal)
    February 27, 2005 - 08:55 pm

    From this age no Moslem murals save those of Qusayr Amra and Samarra; they reveal a strange and barren marriage of Byzantine techniques with Sasanian designs. As if in compensation, Islamic miniatures are among the finiest in history. Here fruition came to a varied heritage----Byzantone, Sasnin, and Chinese, and zealoous hands carried on an art so intimatelly beautiful that one almost resents Gutenberg.

    Like chamber music in modern Europe, so in medieval Islam the illumination of manuscripts with miniature paintings was an art for the aristocratic few; only the rich could maintain an artist in the devoted poverty that produced these patient masterpieces. Here again decoration subordinated representation; perspective and modeling were deliberately ignored; a central motif or form----perhaps a geometrical figure or a single flower----was extended in a hundred variations, until nearly every inch, and even the border, of the page was filled with lines as carefully drawn as if incised.

    In secular works men, woman, and animals might be introduced, in scenes of hunting, humor, or love, but always the ornament was the thing, the fanciful play of delicate ine, the liquid flow of a mind at peace. Art is significance rendered with feeling through form, but the feeling must accept discipline, and the form must have structure and meaning, even if the meaning outreach the realm of words. This is the art of illumination, as of the profoundest music.

    Calligraphy was an integral part of illumination; one must go as far as China to find again so fraternal a union of writing and design. From Kufa had come the Kufic letters, clumsily angular, crudely sharp; the calligraphers clothed these meager bones with vowel, inflectional, prosodic, diacritical marks, and little floral flourishes; so redeemed, the Kufic script became a frequent feature of architectual decoration.

    For cursive writing, however, the Naskhi form of the Arabic alphabet proved more attractive; its rounded characters and sinuous horizontal flow were of themselves a decoration; in all the world isno wriitng or print that equals it in beauty. By the tenth century it had gained the upper hand over Kufic in all but monumental or ceramic lettering; most of the Moslem books that have reached us from the Middle Ages are in Naskhi script.

    The majority of these surviving volumes are Korans. Merely to copy the holy book was a work of piety sure of divine rewards; to illustrate it with pictures was accounted sacrilege; but to lavish beautiful handwriting upon it was deemed the noblest of the arts. Whereas miniaturists were hired artisans poorly paid, calligraphers were sought and honored with royal gifts, and numbered kings and statesmen in their ranks.

    A scrap of writing by a master's hand was a priceless treasure; already in the tenth century there were bibiophiles who lived and moved and had their being in their collections of fine manuscripts, written on parchment with inks of black, blue, violet, red and gold. Only a few such volumes have reached us from this age; the oldest is a Koran in the Cairo Library, dated 784. When we add that such works were bound in the softest, strongest leather, tooled or stamped with unexcelled artistry, and the cover itself in many instances adorned with an elegant design, we may without hyperbole rank Islamic books of the ninth to the eighteenth century as the finest ever issued. Which of us can be published in such splendor today?

    Malryn (Mal)
    February 27, 2005 - 08:57 pm
    Artwork

    Illuminated Koran

    Justin
    February 27, 2005 - 10:25 pm
    The illuminators in Post 146 have committed the ultimate sin and will be punished severely on Resurection Day. Their transgression may be mitigated a little because they did not depict the face of the prophet. The art work is delightful.It is wonderfully fanciful and in the European style called "up the page". It is reminiscent of the work seen on Greek temples depicting the battles of the centaurs. I am also reminded of the Gozzoli Tapestry at the Cloisters in NYC depicting unicorns. The unicorn, you will recall is a god like creature known for purity and as an attribute of the Virgin Mary. The legend of the unicorn is often interpreted as an allegory of the Annunciation and the incarnation of Christ.

    Malryn (Mal)
    February 27, 2005 - 11:43 pm

    The text in Post #145 is 2 paragraphs in the book, beginning on Page 276. I have put these 2 paragraphs into several paragraphs to make the text easier to read on a computer monitor.

    Mal

    winsum
    February 28, 2005 - 12:01 am
    the images are gorgeious color and design. the faces generic appropriate for their time. I wonder what the medium is possibly an oily ink? or what???

    Justin
    February 28, 2005 - 12:27 pm

    Sunknow
    February 28, 2005 - 01:46 pm
    Mal - you are doing a great job filling in for Robby, and as always, you find wonderful links to follow.

    Question: Can any of our viewers here actually READ the text written in the "Illuminated Koran"(in #146) ?? I wonder about things like: Do they write in sentences, in the text...as we do?

    Or is it more "word pictures"?? Anyone have an explanation for me? I'm not phrasing my question well, but maybe you get the idea. I know little about earlier writings, but am fascinated when I see it.

    Justin - your post #150 was elegantly expressed: Was the message: "Silence is Golden"?

    Sun

    winsum
    February 28, 2005 - 01:50 pm
    I think you could read it if you wanted to go through all sorts of computer enhansments but of course they didn't have access to that. . . maybe their eyesight was better thana ours or at least they were ued to the stuff and only needed occassional hints. . . rambling. . . where is everyone?

    Shasta Sills
    February 28, 2005 - 02:20 pm
    Justin, the problem with the woman and the wall is that she must appear to be moving. Emerging. That could be done by painting her three-dimensionally and in strong colors, while the brick wall fades out slightly behind her. A figure can be made to jump right out of the canvas. But the Persians painted flat, two-dimensional figures, so I don't know how they did it. I stopped painting 10 years ago, and I'm not going to start again so I'll never know if I could have made a woman step out of a wall or not.

    robert b. iadeluca
    February 28, 2005 - 02:40 pm
    Hey, I'm back!! Whether it's for five minutes or forever, I have no idea. The things I've learned about my computer in the last couple of days! However, you guy are doing so well without me, I just might take an unannounced sabbatical. For now, I'll take a couple of days just catching up on the postings. Have we reached the end of the volume yet?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    February 28, 2005 - 02:57 pm
    Mal, if I am correct, you are at the top of Page 278. Why not finish that last paragraph there and I'll pick it up at the start of the new topic "Music?" Better yet, you don't really have any thing to do and are probably pleased to pick up as Discussion Leader to ease your boredom. Why not continue on as is and I'll see if I can find an angel (great word in Age of Faith) to slip me a few thousand and I'll head for the Virgin (is that an Age of Faith word?) Islands.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    February 28, 2005 - 03:37 pm

    Not without me you don't, Bobby Boy. I'm tired of winter and chilled right through without central heat. If you go, I go, too!

    I'll try and post that paragraph. I've been having trouble with my computer as far as getting beyond the home page of SeniorNet is concerned; took the back door in to Books just now. If it works again, I'll be back.

    Let's see if I can get this posted.

    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    February 28, 2005 - 03:40 pm

    In the embellishment of Islamic life all the arts mingled like the interlaces of a decorative theme. So the patterns of illumination and calligraphy were woven into textiles, burned into pottery, and mounted on portals and mihrabs. If medieval civilization made little distinctioin between artist and artisan it was not to belittle the artist but to ennoble the artisan; the goal of every industry was to become an art.

    The weaver, like the potter, made undistinguished products for ephemeral use; but sometimes his skill and patience found expression, his dream found form, in robes or hangings, rugs or coverings, embroideries or brocades, woven for many lifetimes, designed with the finesse of a miniature, and dyded in the gorgeous colors so favored of the East.

    Byzantine, Coptic, Ssanian, Chinese textiles were already famous whtn the Moslems conquered Syria, Persia, Egypt and Transoxiana; Islam was quick to learn, and though the Prophet had proscribed silk, Moslem factories soon issued the sinful substance in bold abundance for men and women who sought forgiveness for their bodies as well as their souls. A "robe of honor" was the most precious present a caliph could offer his servants.

    The Moslems became the leading silk merchants of the medieval world. Persian silk taftah was brought for European ladies as taffeta. Shiraz was famous for its woolen cloths, Behdad for it baldachin hangings and tabby silks. Khuzistan for fabrics of camel's or goat's hair; Khurasan for its sofa (Arabic suffah covers. Tyre for its carpets, Bokhara for its prayer rugs, Herat for its gold brocades. No samples of these products from this period have survived the wear and tear of time; we can only surmise their excellence from later work, and the witness of the writers of their age. An entry in the archives of Harun al-Rashid notes "400,000 pieces of gold, the price of a robe of honor for Jafar, the son of Yahya the Vizier."

    robert b. iadeluca
    February 28, 2005 - 03:41 pm
    In the meantime what is your erstwhile DL doing? Disrupting the whole scheme of things by posting a link which has nothing whatsoever to do with Islam but we do from time to time in this forum post links which relate to both current events and The Age of Faith. Click HERE to see the latest on the Ten Commandments.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    February 28, 2005 - 03:45 pm
    Thank you, Mal, for completing that section before we move into Music and a special thanks for always moving in so competently when a problem arises with my computer. Thank you not only for that hard work copying Durant text but those excellent links you furnished. Take a hard-earned rest, Mal. I will try my best to fill in.

    Robby

    Justin
    February 28, 2005 - 09:25 pm
    Shasta: You are absolutely right. I was just being contrary. Recession on a two dimensional surface without the benefit of three dimensional techniques is pretty much limited to "overlap, up the page, size variation, and light and dark figures." I was thinking of Blondie's tush swaying with sidebars to suggest motion and of the dancing girls in the el Amarna period, who while flat, were depicted in motion postures. It's a difficult assignment.

    Justin
    February 28, 2005 - 09:36 pm
    Sun : I have a copy of a translation of the Qur'an. The translator worked the message out in sentences and I have no reason to believe that Arabic writing does not follow a similar construction pattern. But I think we need Mahlia to give us the straight skinny. Is Mahlia still having problems with her eyes? Her messages are missed.

    winsum
    March 1, 2005 - 12:08 am
    depicting it shouldn't be difficult. just have her head and upper body turned either toward the wall or away from it. people usuallly follow their noses. . . . Claire

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 1, 2005 - 03:50 am
    Music

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 1, 2005 - 04:04 am
    Durant continues --

    "Music, like sculpture, was at first a sin in Islam. It was not forbidden in the Koran. But, if we may believe a dubious tradition, the Prophet, ferful of the songs and dances of promiscuous women, denounced musical instruments as the devil's muezzin call to damnation.

    "The theologians, and all the four schools of orthodox law, frowned upon music as raising the winds of passion. But some generously conceded that it was not sinful in itself.

    "The people, always healthier in their conduct than in their creeds, held it as a proverb that 'wine is as the body, music is as the soul, joy is their off-spring.'

    "Music accompanied every stage of Moslem life and filled a thousand and one Arabian nights with songs of love and war and death. Every palace, and many mansions, engaged minstrels to sing the songs of the poets or their own.

    "In the startling judgment of an historian fully competent to judge, 'the cultivation of music by the Arabs in all its branches reduces to insignificance the recognition of the art in the history of any other country.'

    "No Western ear, except after long training, can quite appreciate the quality of Arabian music -- its preference of melodic elaboration (arabesques of sound) to harmony and counterpoint -- its division of tones not into halves but into thirds -- its florid Oriental patterns of structure and rhythm. To us it seems repetitiously simple, monotonously mournful, formlessly weird.

    "To the Arabs European music seems deficient in the number and subtlety of its tones, and vulgarly addicted to useless complexity and monumental noise. The meditative tenderness of Arabian music deeply affects the Moslem soul. Sa'di speaks of a boy 'singing such a plaintive melody as would arrest a bird in its flight.' al-Ghazali defined ecstasy as 'the state tht comes from listening to music.' One Arabic book gives a chapter to those who fainted or died while listening to Moslem music. Religion, which at first denounced it, later adopted music for the intoxicating dervish ritual."

    There is much for us to discuss under this topic. As a boy I played the violin and the trumpet. I can read music, I listen to it regularly, and I think I understand what is being said here.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 1, 2005 - 06:55 am

    Middle Eastern Musical Instruments. Be sure to click the link at the bottom titled "More images of musical instruments"

    Bubble
    March 1, 2005 - 07:30 am
    I first came to Israel just after a big wave of North Africans immigration. To counter their norstalgia they were playing that arabic music and you could hear it blaring from open windows everywhere. To us of western culture, it sounded so alien, so repetitive that we called it "primitive".

    My last trip in Europe, I was asked by my friends there to bring some samples of local music. I picked the favorites songs played on the radio and those I found particularly charming. My friends looked at me in astonishment: what. you listen to arab music there? I had not realized up to then that my ear had got used to those sounds and tones and finally saw the beauty of it. The variations are incredible and quite pleasing once one get used to the differences. All is not bellydance music, far from it.

    I still cannot understand arabic words of course, but many are in Hebrew now. OUr Yemenite singers sing melodies that are easier to our western ears, but with haunting rythms of the East. I know that somewhere on the net there are audios by Ofra Haza proving it. I did not manage to find them. She was well known worldwide, so one can probably hear her CDs in records shops too. Bubble

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 1, 2005 - 07:38 am

    Arab Music, Part 1

    Arab Music, Part 2

    Arab Music, Part 3

    Arab Music, Part 4

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 1, 2005 - 08:28 am

    Some common Arabic music modes

    Bubble
    March 1, 2005 - 08:40 am
    Would you play that for us Mal? I would be easier for comparison.

    The tarabucca or the tamburine are always present in kindergardens, to help these small kids keep the tempo and dance or walk together. I never thought that it could be different elsewhere.

    JoanK
    March 1, 2005 - 12:10 pm
    I, also, remember the strains of Eastern music coming through open windows in Israel. I came to rather like it.

    But when I first got my computer a year ago, I thought I would pick up some Israeli radio stations. The only music station I could get was playing American rap and hip-hop.

    3kings
    March 1, 2005 - 01:30 pm
    JOAN tell me it isn't so. I hate to think that 'American rap and hip-hop' is the standard 'musical' fare even in the Middle East. Such dreadful cacophony is forcing me to retreat from tv and radio, to private records only. ++ Trevor

    Fifi le Beau
    March 1, 2005 - 02:59 pm
    After reading the posts about the request for a painting of a figure disappearing into a wall, and another appearing to come out of the wall, this new product I had read about and it's accompaning picture reminded me of the discussion.

    Concrete, glass, and form.

    The light touch

    Fifi

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 1, 2005 - 03:24 pm

    That's pretty neat, FIFI. I wonder if my concrete-sculptor friend knows about this?

    Mal

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 1, 2005 - 03:56 pm
    "Moslem music began with ancient Semitic forms and tunes -- developed in contact with Greek 'modes' that were themselves of Asiatic origin, and felt strong influences from Persia and india.

    "A musical notation, and much musical theory were taken from the Greeks. al-Kindi, Avicenna, and the Brethren of Sincerity wrote at length on the subject. al-Farabi's Grand Book on Music is the outstanding medieval production on the theory of music -- 'equal, if not superior, to anything that has come down to us from Greek sources.'

    "As early as the seventh century the Moslems wrote mensurable music (apparently unknown to Durope before 1190) -- their notation indicated the duration, as well as the pitch, of each note.

    "Among a hundred musical instruments the chief were the lute, lyre, pandore, psaltery, and flute, occasionally reinforced by horn, cymbals, tambourine, castanets, and drum. The lyre was a small harp. The lute was like our mandolin, with a long neck and a curved sounding board made of small glued segments of maple wood. The strings, of catgut, were pluched by the fingers.

    "There were a dozen sizes and varieties of lute. The large lute was called qitara from the Greek kithara. Our words guitar and lute (Arabic al-ud) are from the Arabic. Some string instruments were played with a bow, and the organ was known in both its pneumatic and its hydraulic forms. Certain Moslem cities, like Seville, were celebrated for making fine musical instruments, far superior to anything produced in contemporary Islam.

    "Nearly all instrumental music was intended to accompany or introduce song. Performances were usually confined to four or five instruments at a time but we also read of large orchestras.

    "Tradition ascribes to the Medina musician Surayj the first use of the baton."

    An interesting history of the origin of our present-day instruments.

    Robby

    Justin
    March 1, 2005 - 06:33 pm
    I am inclined to favor belly dancing music because it encourages my wild imagination.

    Fifi le Beau
    March 1, 2005 - 07:52 pm
    George Gittoes did a documentary on the invasion of Iraq called "Soundtrack to war". In the film, the soldiers played the songs they took along for their CD players that pumped them up for war. It was shown on VH1 and may be replayed in the future.

    They rigged their tanks and humvees for the most hard core of sounds, put on their headsets and went full speed ahead to the sound of Slayer singing "Angel of Death" and "Raining Blood".

    Every group had their favorites, but the majority went in with hard core heavy metal 'blood and gore' music. Rap was for down time, Slayer was for killing.

    No country is immune from western music and Iraq was well aware of that scene, especially in the cities. Rock and Roll and pop standards with some rap and hip hop appealed to the young, but dark heavy metal was not in evidence. It was soon on its way though.

    Here are the lyrics to "Angel of Death", and at the bottom you can click on "Raining Blood" to read the lyrics of that song too.

    Angel of Death

    Fifi

    JoanK
    March 1, 2005 - 08:07 pm
    That's unspeakable!!!

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 1, 2005 - 08:11 pm

    Listen, I do a lot of searches for "foreign" music midi files for the electronic magazines I publish. The last time I searched for Arabian music, Japanese music, French music, Italian music, Irish music, Israeli music, German music, Chinese music, you name it music, the only midi files I could find, except for national anthems, was heavy metal, Rock and rap. Hip hop is old by now. Fusion is in. You'll find the same kind of lyrics on these foreign sites that Fifi posted.

    Mal

    winsum
    March 1, 2005 - 10:40 pm
    http://www.rhapsodylive.com/rhapsody/5MeWMlA1-NH-34H-A-ofra+haza

    the site itself is here http://www.rhapsodylive.com

    Onl I can't play it with my mac os9.1 system. most of you probably can. go see.

    there is an indian instrument, that is layed like a guitar and I've forgotten the name which is just another senior language moment. . . . it's used to play extemporatiously.

    later, wheen I find it. . . . Claire

    OK I found it. it's a SITAR. I wonder why it hasn't been mentioned it's as basic to them as our guitar is to us Here is a site that sells Indian Instruments with photos. . they are beautiful instruments.

    http://www.keshav-music.com/strings.htm Claire

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 2, 2005 - 06:01 am

    ROBBY can't get online again. Let's continue with Durant:
    Moslem music began with ancient Semitic forms and tunes; developed in contact with Greek "modes" that were themselves of Asiatic origin; and felt strong influences from Persia and India. A musical notation, and much musical theory were taken from the Greeks; al-Kindi, Avicenna, and the Brethren of Sincerety wrote at length on the subject; al-Farabi's Grand Book on Music is the oustanding medieval production on the theory of music----equal, if not superior, to anything that has come down to us from Greek sources. As early as the seventh century the Moslems wrote mensurable music (apparently unknown to Europe before 11 90) -----their notation indicated the duration, as well as the pitch, of each note.

    Among a hundred musical instruments the chief were the lute, lyre, pandore, psaltery, and flute, occasionally reinforced by horn, cymbals, tambourine, castanets, and drum. The lyre was a small harp. The lute was like our manodolin, with a long neck and a curved souding board made of small glued segments of maple wood; the strings, of catgut, were plucked by the fingers.

    There were a dozen sizes and varieties of lute. The large lute was called "qitara" from the Greek "kithara;" our words guitar and lute )Arabic al-ud) are from the Arabic. Some string instruments were played with a bow, and the organ was knoan in both its pneumatic and its hydraulic forms. Certain Moslem cities, like Seville, were celebrated for making fine musical instruments, far superior to anything produced in contemporary Islamd.

    Nearly all instrumental music was intended to accompany or introduce song. Performances were usually confined to four or five instruments at a time, but we also read of large orchestras, and tradition ascribes to the Medina musicians Surayj the first use of the baton.

    Despite the Moslem madness for music, the status of musicians, except for reknowned virtuosos, was low. Few men of the higher classes condescended to study the intoxicating art. The music of a rich household was provided by female slaves, and a school of law held that the testimony of a musician could not be accepted in court.

    Dancing likewise was almost confined to slaves trained and hired, it was often erotic, often artistic; the Caliph Amin personally directed an all night ballet in which a large number of girls danced and sang. Contact of the Arabs with Greeks and Persians raised the status of the musician. Ummayad and Abbasid caliphs showered largesse upon the great performers of their time.

    Suleiman I offered prizes as high as 20,000 pieces of silver ($10,000) for a competition among the musicians of Mecca; Walid II held song tournaments, at one of which the first prize was 300,000 pieces of silver ($150,000); these figures are presumably Oriental exaggerations, Mahdi invited to his court the Meccan singer Siyat, "whose soul warmed and chilled more than a hot bath", and Harun al-Rashid took into his services Siyat's pupil Ibrahim ibn al-Mahdi, who had a voice of tremendous power and three octaves' range; time seems an impish circle when we hear that he led a kind of Romantic movement in Arabian music against the classical school of Ishaq, son of Ibrahim al Mawsli. Ishaq was by general consent the greatest musician ever produced by Islam. Al-Mamun used to say of him: "He never sang to me but what I felt that my possessions were increased."


    Despite the pleasure musicians and performers of the dance brought to people, we see them reduced in status in society. Has this changed much over the centuries?

    Justin
    March 3, 2005 - 12:43 pm
    Not only do we take pleasure in hearing and watching musical performers today, we raise them to the status of celebrity.Sometimes the people go beyond that and raise performers to positions of leadership in the community. Murphy, a song and dance man of the thirties was elected US Senator. Swarzeneger who dances violent routines in films has been raised to the governorship of California.Ronald Reagan. a song and dance man of the forties and fifties became president. His legacy is still with us.

    winsum
    March 3, 2005 - 01:38 pm
    They are all republicans. . . . claire

    Justin
    March 3, 2005 - 03:29 pm
    Yes, Claire they were and are and all think women should not speak unless spoken to.

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 3, 2005 - 08:05 pm

    Yes, but . . . regardless what your political affiliation is, would you like your daughter to marry a Rock musician? Or an out-of-work violinist who couldn't find a job? Or an actor who had been between plays for a year or more and had a job washing dishes at a restaurant? Have you ever seen an ordinary musician or actor -- not one who is a celebrity, but one like the millions out there -- who is invited to dinner at a rich man's table? I believe the answer is no, and that's not different from the attitude toward musicians in the 11th century in Islam.

    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 3, 2005 - 08:40 pm
    We get a pleasant picture of Moslem society, and of the stir made by music in the Moslem soul, in a story told by Ibrahim al-Mawsili's pupil Mukhariq; we need not believe it to feel its significance:
    After drinking with the Caliph a whole night, I asked his permission to take the air . . . which he granted. While I was walking I saw a damsel who appeared as if the rising sun beamed from her face. She had a basket, and I followed her.

    She stopped at a fruiterer's, and bought some fruit, and observing that I was following her, she looked back and abused me several times, but still I followed her until she arrived at a great door . . . When she entered, and the door was closed behind her, I sat down opposite to it, deprived of my reason by her beauty . . .

    The sun went down upon me while I saw there; and at length there came two handsome young men on asses, and they knocked at the door, and when they were admitted, I entered with them, the master of the house thinking that I was their companion, and they imagining that I was one of his friends.

    A repast was brought us, and we ate and washed our hands, and were perfumed. The master of the house then said to the two young men, "Have ye any desire that I should call such a one?" (mentioning a woman's name.) They answered: "If thou wilt grand us the favor, well." So he called for her, and she came, and lo, she was the maiden whom I had seen . . .

    A servant maid preceded her, bearing her lute, which she placed in her lap. Wine was then brought, and she sang, while we drank and shook with delight.

    "What air is that?" they asked. She answered, "My master Mukhariq's." She then sang another air, which she said was also mine, while they drank by pints, she looking aside doubtfully at me until I lost my patience, and called out to her to do her best, but in attmpting to do so, singing a third air, she overstrained her voice, and I said, "I have just made a mistake"; upon which she threw the lute from her lap in anger, saying . . . ."Take it thyself, and let us hear thee."

    I answered, "Well"; and having taken it and tuned it perfectly, I sang the first of the airs which she had sun before me; whereupon all of them sprang to their feel and kissed my head. I then sand the second air, and the third, and their reason almost fled with ecstasy.

    The master of the house, after asking his guests and being told by them that they knew me not, came to me, and kissing my hand, said, "By Allah, my master, who art thou?" I answered, "By Allah, I am the singer Mukhariq." "And for what purpose, said he, kissing both my hands, "camest thou hither?" I replied, " As a sponger---and I related what happened with respect to the maiden.

    Thereupon he looked toward his two companions and said to me, "Tell me, by Allah, do ye not know that I gave for that girl 30,000 dirhems ($15,000) and have refused to sell her?" They answered, "It is so." "Then," said he, "I take you as witnesses that I have given her to him." "And we," said the two friends, "will pay thee two-thirds of her price."

    So he put me in possession of the girl, and in the evening, when I departed, he presented me also with rich robes and other gifts, with all of which I went away. And as I passed the places where the maiden had abused me, I said to her, "Repeat thy words to me"; but she would not for shame.

    Holding the girl's hand, I went with her to the Caliph, whom I found in anger at my long absence, but when I related my story to him he was surprised, and laughed, and ordered that the master of the house and his two friends should be bought before him, that he might requite them; to the former he gave 40,000 dirhems; to each of his two friends 30,000; and to me 100,000, and I kissed his feet and departed.

    Sunknow
    March 3, 2005 - 09:08 pm
    What a marvelous story. Believe or not....it's a very clever tale.

    Sun

    winsum
    March 3, 2005 - 11:49 pm
    as for any of those professions which in themselves are a labor of love whether successful economically or not. I'd be pleased that she had found someone who shares my values. As it is her husband is in the rock music business MANAGING rock musicians. even the fairly successful ones have problems with aging and marrying and having families which make it hard for them to travel and be gone a long time . speak for yourself Mal. You don't really know anyone else very well. . . . Claire

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 4, 2005 - 02:54 am

    To those who object to my attempt to help keep things going while ROBBY is having computer problems and cannot be online, I can only say this: It is temporary. ROBBY will be back as soon as he can to lead the discussion and maintain the even tenor that has been an important part of this discussion since it began November 1, 2001.

    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 4, 2005 - 02:57 am

    Western Islam

    641-1086

    The Conquest of Africa

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 4, 2005 - 03:08 am

    The Near East was but a part of the Islamic world. Egypt under the Moslems resurrected her Pharaonic glory; Tunis, Sicily and Morocco recovered orderly government under Arab leadership, and a passing briliance illuminated Quirwan, Palermo and Fez; Moorish Spain was a perk in the history of civilization; and later the Moslem Moguls, ruling India, would "build like giants and finish like jewelers."

    While Khalid and other conquerors subdued the East, Amr ibn al-As, only seven years after Mohammed's death, set out from Gaza in Palestine, captured Pelusium and Memphis, and marched upon Alexandria. Egypt had ports and naval bases, and Arab power needed a fleet; Egypt exported corn to Constantinople, and Arabia needed corn. The Byzantine government in Egypt had for centuries used Arab mercenaries as police; these were no hindrance to the conquerors.

    The Monophysite Christians of Egypt had suffered Byzantine persecution; they received the Moslems with open arms, helped them to take Memphis, guided them into Alexandria. When it fell to Amr after a siege of twenty-three months (641) he wrote to the Caliph Omar: "It is impossible to enumerate the riches of this great city, or to describe its beauty; I shall content myself with observing that it contains 4000 palaces, 400 baths, 400 theaters."

    Amr prevented pillage, preferring taxation. Unable to understand the theological differences among the Christian sects, he forbade his Monophysite allies to revenge themselves upon their orothodox foes, and upset the custom of centuries by proclaiming freedom of worship for all.

    Did Amr destroy the Alexandrian Library? The earliest mention of this story is found in Abd al-Latif (1162-1231), a Moslem scientists; it is more fully given in Bar-Hebraeus (1226-86), a Christianized Jew of eastern Syria, who wrote in Arabic, under the name of Abu-'l-Faraj, an epitome of world history. In his account an Alexandrian grammarian, John Philoponus, asked Amr to give him the manuscripts of the library; Amr wrote to Omar for permission; the Caliph, we are told, replied: "If these writings of the Greeks agree with the Book of God, they are useless, and need not be preserved; if they disagree they are pernicious, and should be destroyed". legend shortens this probably legendary answer to "Burn the libraries, for they are contained in one book" -- the Koran.

    According to Bar-Hebraeus, Amr distributed the contents of the library among the city's public baths, whose 4000 furnaces were fueld for six months with the papyrus and parchment rolls. (642), Against this story it should be noted that (1) a large part of the library had been destroyed by Christian ardor under the Patriarch Theophilus in 392; (2) the remainder had suffered such hostiity and neglect that "most of the collection disappeared by 641"; and (3) in the 500 years between the supposed event and its first reporter no Christian historian mentions it, though one of them, Eurychius, Archbishop of Alexndria in 933, described the Arab conquest of Alexandria in great detail. The story is now generally rejected as a fable.

    In any case the gradual dissolution of the Alexandrian Library was a tragedy of some moment, for it was believed to contain the complete published works of Aeschylus, Sophocles, Polybius, Livy, Tacitus, and a hundred others, who have come down to us in mangled form; full texts of volumes of Greek, Egyptian, and Roman history, science, literature, and philsophy.

    "The Moslem Moguls, ruling India, would 'build like giants and finish like jewelers.' " An interesting statement. Comments?

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 4, 2005 - 03:39 am
    The Alexandrian Library

    Treasures of the Alexandrian Library

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    March 4, 2005 - 04:00 am
    "since it began November 1, 2001." really Mal? How time flies. No matter what went on in this discussion since then I don't think I ever missed a day. What would we do without you, you are doing a fantastic job while Robby is off line, it is very generous of you, thank you.

    The Alexandrian Library picture is breathtaking.

    Éloïse

    moxiect
    March 4, 2005 - 06:39 am


    As we leave the Eastern Islam culture and venture into the Western I recall someone mentioning to me "If you want to know the history of man Listen to it's Music for it will tell you how far it has advanced."

    Haverhill, you do a suburp job of finding all the tidbits that go along with what we are reading.

    Thank you for finding the Alexandrian Library it was breathtaking.

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 4, 2005 - 06:41 am
    My computer is back in operation but I need to leave for work. I will post this evening (ET).

    I become concerned when I see a participant judge the actions or opinions of another participant. I hope such a lack of courtesy or respect means merely that someone had a "bad hair day."

    Robby

    Scrawler
    March 4, 2005 - 11:07 am
    I think the history of man comes to us not only from how man [and woman] evolved over the years, but also from the interests that occupied their minds and hearts. It seems to me that the more civilized the country; the more interest they showed in art, music, poetry, and stories.

    tooki
    March 4, 2005 - 11:50 am
    This is Tooki, back with a new computer. While I was away, I read the book anyway. Here is one answer: Alexandrian Library

    Does it matter, somehow, who burned it, or if it was a number of folks? Does history hold grudges against those who do uncivilized things?

    P.S. Mal, Your skills are awesome

    JoanK
    March 4, 2005 - 12:02 pm
    Hey, Tooki, welcome back!!!

    Persian
    March 4, 2005 - 02:58 pm
    One of our good friends, who heads the Near East section at the Library of Congress, has been deeply involved during the past few years in preparing for the opening of the NEW Great Library of Alexandria. He forwarded the following link for those posters who might like to learn more about the magnificence of the original and the surrounding culture of that period. We have hosted Egyptian library delegations from time to time and it is absolutely fascinating to listen to them talk about the wonders of the original structure and the diversity of its holdings.

    http://www.bede.org.uk/Library2.htm

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 4, 2005 - 03:30 pm
    The fact that Tooki is back and Persian has re-joined us shows the advantages of my being away! And did I see the name of a new participant back there a few postings or did I imagine it?

    How Mal manages to step in (and often suddenly), open the volume, type out the text breaking Durant's long paragraphs into short readable paragraphs, simultaneously track down and post relevant links, and guide the discussion -- all the time publishing a few highly successful Internet magazines is incredible. When my computer gets sick again (Murphy's law), feel free -- any of you -- to volunteer for this cinch job and give Mal a rest.

    I'll be back shortly to continue with Durant.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 4, 2005 - 04:16 pm
    As Mal indicated, we are now in Western Islam. Take note of the GREEN quotes in the Heading to see in what direction we are going. For those who have the volume, we are in the middle of Page 283. For those curious folks, this volume has 1086 pages. And there are seven volumes after this one. Keep yourself healthy, people! Drink lots of water, exercise regularly, concentrate on fruits and vegetables, and get a full night's sleep.

    Stay alive! Each volume has averaged 10 months and this volume is longer than most. You can do the arithmetic. I can feel my brain expanding day by day ever since The Story of Civilization started.

    Durant continues.

    "Amr administered Egypt competently. Part of the oppressive taxation financed the repair of canals and dikes, and the reopening of an eighty-mile canal between the Nile and the Red Sea. Ships could now sail from the Mediterranean into the Indian Ocean. (This canal was again choked with sand in 723 and was abandoned.)

    "Amr built a new capital on the site where he had pitched his camp in 641. It was called al-Fustar, apparently from the Arabic for tent. It was the first form of Cairo. There for two centuries (661-868) Moslem governors ruled Egypt for the caliphs of Damascus or Baghdad.

    "Every conquest creates a new frontier, which being exposed to danger, suggests further conquest. To protect Moslem Egypt from flank attack by Byzantine Cyrene, an army of 40,000 Moslems advanced through the desert to Barca, took it, and marched to the neighborhood of Carthage. The Moslem general planted his spear in the sand some eighty miles south of the modern Tunis, built a camp, and so founded (670) one of Islam's major cities, Qairwan -- 'the resting place.'

    "Realizing that the capture of Carthage would give the Moslem control of the Mediterranean and an open road to Spain, the Greek emperor sent troops and a fleet. The Berbers, forgetting for a moment their hatred of Rome, joined in defending the city. It was not until 698 that Carthage was subdued.

    "Soon thereafter Africa was conquered to the Atlantic's shores. The Berbers were persuaded, almost on their own terms, to accept Moslem rule and presently the Moslem faith.

    "Africa was divided into three provinces -- Egypt with its capital at al-Fustar -- Ifriqiya with its capital at Qairwan -- Maghreb (Morocco) with its capital at Fez."

    Civilizations clash in this small period of time -- Moslems, Greeks, Romans, Berbers, Carthaginians, Egyptians. The so-called Dark Continent was erupting in a massive change.

    Robby

    Justin
    March 4, 2005 - 04:44 pm
    Yes, it matters who burnt the Library.The last thing I did every night, before I went to sleep, for the last 60 years I cursed Caesar for burning the Library. Now I find that Caesar's act was an accidental extention of an attack on rebellious Egyptians and that Mark Antony replaced many of the lost manuscripts. I can sleep now in peace.

    The bad news is that those good, kind, loving, Christians bearing the "good news" were responsible for deliberately, and with purposeful intent, destroying the written knowledge of centuries and on top of that they scraped the flesh off the head librarian, Hypatia, and burned her bones. Wasn't that a nice thing to do?

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 5, 2005 - 02:45 am
    This link shows the creation of CANALS in Egypt prior to the creation of Islam.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 5, 2005 - 07:16 am
    Mill at Rosetta

    House of Mizouni

    Mosque at Luxor

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 5, 2005 - 07:23 am
    Al-Mahali mosque

    Muallaqa mosque

    tooki
    March 5, 2005 - 08:22 am
    I was surprised, as a far westerner where folks rely on rivers for transport of grain, and other commodities, to find This brief discussion of canals.

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 5, 2005 - 09:13 am
    Tooki:--Most of us New Yorkers (even if I do now live in Virginia) who have done any sort of historical reading know of the importance of the Erie and other canals to New York State. I lived in Syracuse, Geneva (near Seneca Falls) and Albany and the lore of the Canal was always close by.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 5, 2005 - 12:25 pm
    "For a century even these provinces acknowledged the Eastern caliphs as their sovereigns. But the difficulties of communication and transport were increased by the removal of the caliphate to Baghdad, and one by one the African provinces became independent kingdoms.

    "An Idrisid dynasty (789-974) ruled at Fez, an Aghlabid dynasty (800-909) at Qairwan, and a Tulunid dynasty (869-05) in Egypt.

    "That ancient granary, no longer robbed of its product by foreign masters, entered upon a minor renaissance. Ahmad ibn Tulun (869-84) conquered Syria for Egypt, built a new capital at Qatai (a suburb of al-Fustat), promoted learning and art, raised palaces, public baths, a hospital, and the great mosque that still stands as his monument.

    "His son Khumarawayh (884-95) transmuted this energy into luxury, walled his palace with gold, and taxed his people to provide himself with a pool of quicksilver on which his bed of inflated leather cushions might gently float to win him sleep.

    "Forty years after his death the Tulunids were replaced by another Turkish dynasty, the Ikshidid (935-69). These African monarchies, having no roots in the blood or traditions of the people, had to base their rule on military force and leadership.

    "When wealth weakened their martial ardor their power melted away.

    "The greatest of the African dynasties reinforced its military supremacy by associating itself with an almost fanatical religious belief. About 905 Abu Abdallah appeared in Tunisia, preached the Ismaili doctrine of the seven Imams, proclaimed the early coining of the Mahdi or Savior, and won such a following among the Berbes tht he was able to overthrow the Aghlabid rule in Qairwan. To meet the expectations he had aroused he summoned from Arabia Obeidallah ibn Muhammad, alleged grandson of the Ismaili prophet Abdallah, hailed him as the Mahdi, made him king (909), and was soon put to death by his king's command.

    "Obeidallah claimed descent from Fatima, and gave her name to his dynasty."

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 5, 2005 - 12:32 pm
    The story of al-FUSTAT.

    Robby

    Justin
    March 5, 2005 - 12:59 pm
    What is the Ismaili doctrine of the Seven immans? We may have met this doctrine earlier but don't recall it.

    Shasta Sills
    March 5, 2005 - 01:55 pm
    Tooki! How nice to hear from you again!

    Now, Justin, how are you going to lift those 60 years of curses that you laid on Julius Caesar?

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 5, 2005 - 02:48 pm
    Here is some information about the ISMAILIS.

    Robby

    tooki
    March 5, 2005 - 04:55 pm
    in which Robby urged us to, in the words of an old song, take good care of ourselves because we belong to the discussion group.

    In 1948, as recounted in Will and Ariel's “Dual Autobiography,” Will was on the lecture circuit, making money to allow the time to complete “AofF,” as they called it. In answer to a letter from Ariel, he writes from Cedar Rapids, Iowa: “I would dry even the salt water from every inch of your body with my kisses. Thank you for keeping yourself fit; it is more than any man can deserve, to have a wife who cheats age with health, and keeps herself sweet and beautiful thru all the years.”

    In 1948 Will was 63; Ariel 50. And they were only on Volume 4! How did they find the time?

    (Hi Shasta)

    Justin
    March 5, 2005 - 06:10 pm
    Shasta: I must figure a way to transfer them to the real culprits. We tend to think of these events as of little consequence because they happened so long ago but,in actuality many of these events continue to be relevant. The Arabs, for example, have not forgotten the Crusades and I think it would take little effort to convince them they are witnessing the Fifth Crusade.

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 6, 2005 - 05:24 am
    Here in this discussion we are getting to know more about Islam and the Eastern culture. Now, through a new MEDIUM those in the Eastern civilization are getting to know more about us and about themselves.

    Please refrain from any comments about American political figures.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 6, 2005 - 05:42 am
    Durant continues about Islam in Africa.

    "Under the Aghlabids and Fatimids North Africa renewed the prosperity it had known in the heyday of Carthage and under imperial Rome.

    "In the youth of their vigor the Moslem conquerors in the ninth century opened three routes 1500 to 2000 miles long across the Sahara to Lake Chad and Timbuctu. Northward and westward they established ports at Bone, Oran, Ceuta, and Tangier. A fructifying commerce bound the Sudan with the Mediterranean and Eastern Islam with Morocco and Spain.

    "Spanish Muslem refugees brought to Morocco the art of leather. Fez flourished as a center of eschange with Spain and became famous for its dyes, perfumes, and rimless cylindrical red hats.

    "In 969 the Fatimids wrested Egypt from the Ikshidids and soon thereafter spread their rule over Arabia and Syria. The Fatimid Caliph Muizz transferred his capital to Qahira (Cairo). As Qatai had been a northeastern extension of Fustat, so Qahira ('the victorious') was a northeaster prolongation of Qatai and, like its predecessors, began as a military camp.

    "Under Muizz (953-75) and his son Aziz (975-96) the vizier Yaqub ibn Qillis, a Baghdad Jew converted to Islam, reorganized the administration of Egypt and made the Fatimids the richet rulers of their time. When Muizz' sister Rashida died she left 2.700,000 dinars ($12,825,000) and 12,000 robes. When his sister Abda died she left 3,000 silver vases, 400 swords damascened in gold, 30,000 pieces of Sicilian textiles, and a hoard of jewelry.

    "But nothing fails like success. The next caliph, al-Hakim (996-1021) went half mad with wealth and power. He arranged the assassination of several viziers, persecuted Christians and Jews, burned many churches and synagogues, and ordered the demolition of the Church of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem. The execution of this order was a contributory cause of the Crusades.

    "As if to repeat the career of Caligula, he proclaimed himself a god and sent missionaries to establish his cult among the people. When some of these preachers were killed he took Christians and Jews back into favor and rebuilt their shrines.

    "He was assassinated at the age of thirty-six."

    Nothing fails like success?

    Robby

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    March 6, 2005 - 05:46 am
    Tooki, How could Will have written it without Ariel I wonder? It takes two to make one genius.

    Did the Queen of England, who made the unforgivable mistake of not recognizing a rock star when he performed at the palace, deserve being ridiculed and insulted by the media?

    Backstage after a concert she asked Eric Clapton innocently: "What do you do in life?" Well that was a Big mistake as this article in the Montreal La Presse mentioned that she was so disconnected and ‘old’ that she could not even recognize an intergalactic superstar.

    A Queen should, must, has to learn all about the careers of superstars in order to be respected? What does knowing about that improve on her ability to rule, even only figuratively. I guess she will have to give him a Lordship now to be forgiven.

    Have we reached the time when the Arts surpass all other elements of our civilization? We make places of worship (Graceland) where superstars used to live, erect statues for them after they die, give them titles, medals and honors. Television news spends so much time–in addition to commercials--telling us juicy bits about the star’s private lives. The award shows, Genies, Oscars, etc. etc. last all day long, not to mention days before the shows. The war comes only second after Hollywood news.

    That is what Moslems see on their television screen and we are asking them to consider our life style.

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 6, 2005 - 06:12 am

    Contemporary musicians and composers, Eric Clapton, Ray Davies, Mick Jagger, Paul McCartney, Cliff Richard and Elton John all have been knighted by Queen Elizabeth II. These musicians and their music represent our time in history just as much as any contemporary classical musician and composer does. Their appeal is worldwide, whether Islam wants to accept that fact or not.

    Mal

    winsum
    March 6, 2005 - 08:40 am
    al Jazeera article is full of American political folks . . so I guess that's ok for us too and as for music are we still there. I'd rather be represented in the world by our Jazz and show tunes than those people Mal. We have a big diversity here of homegrown music. Our Folk music comes from other places and is adopted and changed here into the pop folk and rock music where upon it goes back to europe etc. music does get around. My own taste is catholic except for ROCK which I dislike intensely . . . . Claire

    Justin
    March 6, 2005 - 01:18 pm
    It's interesting that QE2 knighted Clapton for his work but then failed to recognize the man. Of course, she was just being friendly. Let's face it, I would not recognize him either. In fact, I was unaware of the guy until this moment. I don't think I would recognize Paul Mc Cartney either but at least I know his name. I think he was beatle. The Queen should have someone at her elbow during these interviews who can introduce people and say, "this is Clapton. You gave him a Knighthood for his music. He plays the sitar." "Oh and this is Robby. He entertains the "Bookies".

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 6, 2005 - 01:24 pm

    Main entrance Fez Medina

    Ancient tannery: Fez

    Workers dyeing leather with saffron: Fez

    Shasta Sills
    March 6, 2005 - 01:35 pm
    Well, well. Queen Elizabeth and I have something in common. I don't know who Eric Clapton is either.

    Fifi le Beau
    March 6, 2005 - 03:49 pm
    Having teenagers it was hard to miss Eric Clapton, the guitar god. I am not an aficionado of any particular music, but when my children were growing up, I listened to the music they liked, and enjoyed much of it myself.

    From Placido Domingo in concert, the Nashville Symphony, the local Bluegrass festival, Broadway musicals, Grand Opera, Grand ole Opry, Gospel at the Ryman(all night), and a three day music festival that featured everyone from Bob Dylan to teenage rock bands with strange sounding names, I've tried it all in short doses.

    I've rocked to Queen and sung "We are the Champions" when my youngest son's high school football team won the championship. This year at a grandsons basketball game, the introductions are to the blasting sound of "We will rock you" and I sang along and stomped with the young ones. We were ready and yelling for blood(victory), similar to the crowd in the coliseum in Rome.

    The music of our youth becomes the music we most identify with the rest of our lives. That did not stop me from entering a Japanese karaoke bar and listening to "Fry me to the moon" by three different contestants.

    Fifi

    Justin
    March 6, 2005 - 04:38 pm
    Cutting edge art and cutting edge music includes a great deal of trash.Most of what we see and hear in the here and now will disappear and no one will know it ever existed. In the classical period of the early 18th century Mozart was one of thousands of composers who prepared music for secular and religious consumption but only a handful continue to be heard. The same is true for other cultural periods. How many Romantics do we listen to? It won't be long before jitterbug music is gone from the scene. The performers disappear as well. We used to think so much of Helen O'Connell, Ray Eberly, and Jo Stafford. Rosie Cluny is all that's left. Soon Elvis will be remembered only by stamp collectors. It makes one realize how difficult it is to do something of lasting value.

    Here we are looking back a millennium at a people who were different from us and what we see are the Sultans and the Caliphates. There are no celebrities to examine. No significant contributors to examine. There are some artifacts, however, that tell us the great ones were there. They are just unknown.

    Fifi le Beau
    March 6, 2005 - 05:07 pm
    This article from the New Yorker is current, but it is all about the conflict between the Sunni and Shi'ite sects in Iraq and also secularism vs Islamic fundamentalists. It centers on Basra in the south of Iraq which is dominated by the Shi'ites.

    The election in Iraq was occurring at the time of the writing, and one of the competing parties put out an election song which is included. According to a music student at the University he can study music theory only, now that the fundamentalists have taken over his school.

    This is current, but it will give an inside look at what is happening in Islam today, as compared to a thousand years ago. Actually it seems a good comparison since they do appear to be fighting the same battle for over a thousand years.

    Islam one thousand years later

    Fifi

    Fifi le Beau
    March 6, 2005 - 07:06 pm
    The Iraqi writer that I read has suggested some current Iraqi music so that we will know what the music scene in Iraq is now. I am playing "Remember me" which is next to last, and if you want vocals click on "Hayyarteeni" and listen to the Iraqi Julio Iglesias.

    I have sent an e-mail asking for a translation of the lyrics, but it is sometimes days without electricity there and no internet connection.

    Iraqi music today

    Check out the pictures on the right.

    Fifi

    winsum
    March 6, 2005 - 08:57 pm
    I love this stuff. I was able to save this one to disk because it's the smallest memory wise

    Baghdad (1. 2MBytes) By Ra'ed George but it took for ever to down load and the others are too big for my system which is just dial up modem 56 only it's really 41. I might buy buy though. It's like our belly dance music and really makes me want to move to it. great stuff. thanks for the link. . . . Claire

    winsum
    March 6, 2005 - 09:39 pm
    Amazon is currently reviewing this novel about Aphganistan . . . at

    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1594480001/ref=ase_earth-bw-feature-20/104-3688417-3924750

    Claire

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 7, 2005 - 02:48 am

    FIFI, I still have some long-playing records of the great groups of the 60's and 70's I so much enjoyed with my kids. I refuse to stay stuck in a rut of the "music of my youth" when there's so much good and exciting music out there.

    Marcus Roberts and his trio played here at UNC last Friday. I wish I could have gone. I first saw him play the piano when he was a kid of 17, just graduated from the St. Augustine School for the Deaf and the Blind. I was amazed at his talent, skill and technique. After playing with Wynton Marsalis, he went on his own and turned to Stride. I saw Marcus some years after that first big concert of his at a jazz club I belonged to in St. Augustine.

    My older son had a Rock band. The bass player in his Indianapolis group was John Hiatt, who has gone on to much bigger and better things. Hiatt was a great big heavy boy in his teens, not the slim man he is now. His mother was a nurse and widow. She encouraged John to do what he did best and wanted to do, and was a great positive influence on her kids.

    Thanks for the Iraqi music. I was going to take a couple for my magazines, but those mp3 files are megabytes big, too heavy for the web pages I make.

    I'd like to travel around the world and look at art and listen to music the rest of my life. Guess I'll stay home and write some on the keyboard I have, instead.

    Mal

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 7, 2005 - 03:07 am
    I am noticing participants more often discussing non-Durant subjects and ignoring the Durant text. This causes me to copy less and less of "The Age of Faith" because it requires (as Mal well knows) time and effort to do so.

    This, then, has a secondary result. My copying less text while waiting for participants to discuss ofther books and other topics causes us to move more slowly through Durant. At the rate we are going due to this happening we may "never" get out of Islam and into the Talmud and additional Durant chapters.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 7, 2005 - 04:02 am

    I'm so sorry, ROBBY. I'll try not to do that again.

    Mal

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 7, 2005 - 04:26 am
    I wasn't aiming at you, Mal. It was an appraisal of how we are doing.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 7, 2005 - 04:35 am

    I realize that, ROBBY, but I'm sorry anyway. Let's move on with Durant, if you have the time.

    Mal

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 7, 2005 - 04:38 am
    I'm leaving for work but perhaps participants here might like to comment on the last two Durant postings I made.

    Robby

    tooki
    March 7, 2005 - 05:16 am
    I had figured we'd just move on, and I wouldn't bother observing that the demolition of the Church of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem by al-Hakim, a contributory cause of the Crusades, seems like another case of, "Who burned the Library?" The lingering effects and consequences of some historical events seem out of proportion to the actual event. Othertimes some horrific historical events just sort of pass into history, so to speak, and are never heard of again except as a sad footnote in a book.

    JoanK
    March 7, 2005 - 10:57 am
    I think discussing contemporary Muslim countries is extremely relevant to Durant and the point of the current discussion, which is to understand Islam and the Muslim culture. Please don't discourage this Robby, it's extremely informative.

    JoanK
    March 7, 2005 - 11:21 am
    has just been moved from a proposed discussion to scheduled for April 1. I bought my book yesterday and am already halfway through the book-- I had trouble putting the book down to come on the computer.

    The narrator of the book comes from a secular family, so there is not a lot of detail (so far) about the religion. But you get a feel for what it is like to be an Afghan child and an immegrant to the US.

    MAHLIA: I seem to dimly remember that you mentioned once having been in Afghanistan. If so, I hope you will add your comments to the discussion.

    THE KITERUNNER

    winsum
    March 7, 2005 - 11:26 am
    Hey guy are you a type A personality. Time isn't of the essence here as in business. We just hope we have enough left at our age to do what we want to do and exploring associated issues with the information provided by Durants writings seems to me to be a valid accompaniment to this study of Islam. However, your frustration is understood and appreciated. Now where is that spell checker . . Claire

    Persian
    March 7, 2005 - 01:51 pm
    JOAN - thanks for bringing the new discussion to my attention. I checked the site and will plan to participate.

    ROBBY - As you know, I have enjoyed the discussion on Durant's work on Islam under your leadership and/or Mal's in your absences. However, I do think that it is important (and interesting) to occasionally intersperse comments on contemporary issues to balance out the historical aspects of Islam with the more current and contemporty events. And, of course, each poster has his/her own background from which to draw experiences and perceptions to share with the entire group. Thus, an occasional foray into other than Durant's comments is OK with me.

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 7, 2005 - 02:16 pm
    I agree with both Joan and Mahlia that bringing in contemporary information about Muslim nations is relevant. In fact, I am often the person who gives a link to a news item. What I am asking is that we not simultaneously ignore the Durant text I have posted, else why should I bother posting it? Being the humans that we are, this often leads to discussing the price of tea in China (which, come to think of it, may be relevant.)

    Your friendly Type A personality.

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 7, 2005 - 02:38 pm

    Admitting my ignorance, I had to look up Type A personality to find out what it is.
    Type A Personality: A temperament marked by excessive competitiveness and ambition, an obsession with accomplishing tasks quickly, little time for self-reflection, and a strong need to control situations.
    Well, I'll tell ya. That's not the Robby Iadeluca I met face to face in Virginia last May and with whom I've associated for several years online. Robby is a hard worker, and when he sets a goal he works hard to achieve it. Life is short, and a lot of us feel as if we have a good deal to accomplish before we die. I see nothing wrong, controlling, or negative about that or being that way.

    One of my biggest frustrations with book discussions is the way people go off on tangents that have very little to do with the book in the regretful way I did this morning.

    I try to post links to photographs and articles that pertain to what's in the book, as do Robby and some others. This can sometimes be a valuable extension to what Durant has researched and written, but it is something I can do on my own.

    Reading Durant's history of civilization is something I probably never would have done alone. To me, our discussion of the volumes of the Story of Civilizaton is the most important thing, and it's why I've been here since the first day the discussion began in 2001.

    Mal

    winsum
    March 7, 2005 - 02:55 pm
    is time oriented not all those things that mal listed necessarily but always at the behest and the mercy of getting things done on time. Now that is our robby. And I didn't mean anything other than that. . . . Claire

    tooki
    March 7, 2005 - 04:08 pm
    sometimes clarify things for me. Apparently, there were as many caliphs as there were Roman Emperors. I hope this interwoven time line is of use.

    List and dates of Caliphs

    Justin
    March 7, 2005 - 10:33 pm
    In 1021, Durant tells us, al Hakim became a little over zealous and persecuted some Christians and some Jews. He burned a few Churches, a few Synagogues, and ordered the demolition of the Church of the Holy Sepulcher. He acted like a nut and he died at age 36 from an overdose of zeal. Seventy five years later, during the Cluniac pilgrimage fad, Pope Urban, a Cluniac and a kind of eclesiastical imperialist, sought to restore Jerusalem to European control.

    He(Urban) recounts seventy five year old atrocity stories at Clermont and launches a military Crusade to retake the Holy City and make the way open for pilgrims- A commendable action, I suppose for European Christians, but the Holy City was already open for pilgrims and the danger had long passed.The Seljuk Turks had taken over and opened things up again.

    The Crusaders were in truth land grabbers. They went to the Holy land to find new baronies and the end result of the first Crusade was the establishment of the Kingdom of Godfrey of Bouillon at Jerusalem.

    I think one of the unrecognized causes of this conflict was the long delay in the transmission of information. Had everyone known that the Seljuk Turks had opened the way for Pilgrims the cause celebre would have gone away and Urban would have been deprived of an imperialist opportunity. As it was, the war on Islam lasted all of two centuries while the Christians burned, crucified, and demolished city after city on their way to the Holy Land again and again until 1275 when some other fad took over.

    By the way,I think it is nice to come upon the beginnings of the Crusades from the Arab side.

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 8, 2005 - 02:38 am
    Islamic Civilization in Africa

    641-1058

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 8, 2005 - 02:56 am
    "The courts of Cairo, Qairwan, and Fez rivaled one another in the support of architecture, painting, music, poetry, and philosophy.

    "But nearly all the surviving manuscripts of Islamic Africa in this period are hidden in libraries which Western scholarship is just beginning to explore. Much of the art has perished and only the mosuqes proclaim the vigor and spirit of the age.

    "At Quaiwan stands the mosque of Sidi Oqba, originally built in 670, seven times restored and mostly dating from 838. Its cloisters of round arches are upheld by hundreds of Corinthian columns from the ruins of Carthage. Its pulpit is a master piece of wood carving, its mihrab a splendor of porphyry and faience. Its square and massive minaret -- the oldest in the world -- set a Syrian style for the minarets of the West. This mosque made Quaiwan the fourth holy city of Islam, one of 'the four gates to Paradise.'

    "Only less sacred and magnificent were the mosques of Fez and Marraqesh, of Tunis and Tripoli.

    "In Cairo the mosques were many and immense. 300 still adorn that charming capital. The mosque of Amr, begun in 642, was rebult in the tenth century. Nothing remains of its early constituents except the fine Corinthian columns judiciously rescued from Roman and Byzantine ruins.

    "The mosque of Ibn Tulun (878) precariously preserves its first form and ornament. A high crenellated wall surrounds its roomy court. Within are pointed arches older than any others in Egypt except the arch of the Nilometer (865) -- a structure built on an island in the Nile to measure the rise of the river.

    "Possibly this graceful and convenient form of the arch passes from Egypt through Sicily and the Normans to Gothic Europe. In the ziggurathlike minaret, and in the domed tomb of Ibn Tulun, are horseshoe arches -- one of the less pleasing features of Moslem art.

    "It is told of Ibn Tulun that he had intended to raise the arches on 300 columns, but when he learned that these could be secured only by dismantling Roman or Christian edifices, he decided, instead, to support the arches with massive piers of brick. Here again this mosque may have suggested a characteristic element of the Gothic style.

    "Finally, as if to make the building a steppingstone to Chartres, some of the windows were filled with colored glass, some with grilles of stone in rosette or stellar or other geometrical designs. These, however, are of uncertain date."

    Insteresting how the architectural designs, or sometimes the actual architecture (remains of columns) are passed from one culture through another and into another.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 8, 2005 - 03:28 am
    As many of us here have read Durant's description of the terrain of the MidEast, I thought some would be interested in what is happening in IRAQ.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 8, 2005 - 04:11 am

    Sidi Oqba mosque

    More pictures of Sidi Oqba mosque

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 8, 2005 - 04:43 am

    Mosque Ibn Tulun

    Ibn Tulun mosque

    About the Ibn Tulin mosque, illustrated

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    March 8, 2005 - 05:53 am
    With new building materials avoiding arches, columns and stone, which gave ancient architecture so much grace and style, we loose something of the poetic design and I am wondering if we will ever match the beauty of those columns and arches supporting massive roofs and domes. Today we are trying to imitate this design using modern material, but unless there is something to justify the design, it looses its appeal.

    tooki
    March 8, 2005 - 06:38 am
    an influencial French architect of the 20th century, was apparently himself influenced by the Ibn Tulin mosque. If you scroll down in Mal's "About the Ibn Tulin mosque," to the photo looking at the light coming in through the little arches, or squinches, and compare it to THIS you can see the strong influence. This chapel was built in the 1930s, or thereabouts. So, Eloise, there still are arches around. They just don't have the same effect.

    Scrawler
    March 8, 2005 - 08:48 am
    One of the oldest board games to survive to the present day, chess was thought to have been devised by a Hindu living in northwest India in the late fifth century A.D. Or by the ancient Persians, since they played a similar game at the time, and since the expression "checkmate" derives from the Arabic phrase "al shat mat," meaning "the king is dead."

    Recently, however, the discovery in the Soviet Union of two ivory chessmen dating to the second century A.D. preempts the Indian and Persian claims.

    In the eleventh century, Spain became the first European country introduced to chess, and through the travels of the Crusaders the game became a favorite of the cultured classes throughout Europe.

    Shasta Sills
    March 8, 2005 - 02:20 pm
    I loved that story about the marshes. I had no idea Iraq had any marshes. And the photos of the mosques. Our American architecture seems so unromantic compared to those buildings. Why can't we have some minarets? Is the steeple on the Christian church our version of the minaret?

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 8, 2005 - 05:08 pm
    "Egypt prospered as the commercial link between Europe and Asia. Increasingly the merchants of India and China sailed past the Persian Gulf and up the Red Sea and the Nile into Egypt.

    "The wealth and power of Baghdad declined, those of Cairo grew. Nasir-i-Khosru, visiting the new capital in 1047, described it as having 20,000 houses, mostly of brick, rising to five or six stories, and 20,000 shops 'so filled with gold, jewelry, embroideries, and satins that there was no room to sit down.'

    "The main streets were protected against the sun, and were lighted at night by lamps. Prices were fixed by the government and anyone caught charging more was paraded through the city on a camel, ringing a bell and confessing his crime.

    "Millionaires were numerous. One merchant, a Christian, fed the whole population at his own expense during the five years of famine caused by the low level of the Nile. Yaqub ibn Qillis left an estate of some $30,000,000. Such men joined with the Fatimid caliphs in building mosques, libraries, and collegees and fostering the sciences and the arts.

    "Despite occasional cruelties, wasteful luxuries, the usual exploitation of labor, and the proper number of wars, the rule of the Fatimids was in general beneficent and liberal, and could compare, in prosperity and culture, with any age in Egyptian history."

    Robby

    Justin
    March 8, 2005 - 06:17 pm
    The marshes in southern Iraq were home to a tribe of Jews who practiced the ancient rites of Judaism. Bubble may be able to tell us more about them.

    winsum
    March 8, 2005 - 08:59 pm
    There is something that thrills me abut WATER bringing life back to the land even if the people have moved on and want more modern ways of living. It's not about them really it's about the rescue of a denuded starved entity -- the land itself. . . . Claire

    winsum
    March 8, 2005 - 09:05 pm
    There is something that thrills me abut WATER bringing life back to the land even if the people have moved on and want more modern ways of living. It's not about them really it's about the rescue of a denuded starved entity -- the land itself. . . .

    and SHASTA we've all been exposed to the modern dictum of architecture FORM FOLLOW FUNCTION. . . so goodbye to arches an dminarets but there are now frogs singing mating calls in the marshes. . . . Claire

    kidsal
    March 9, 2005 - 12:08 am
    The marshes were a part of the flyway for birds migrating from Africa to Europe. When they were drained it had a major impact on the bird population.

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 9, 2005 - 03:20 am
    Kidsal:-Good to have you with us in this discussion! What are your reactions to Durant's remarks?

    Robby

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    March 9, 2005 - 04:10 am
    "Prices were fixed by the government and anyone caught charging more was paraded through the city on a camel, ringing a bell and confessing his crime."

    I can just visualizing a pharmaceutical industry mogul caught charging too much parading in a Mercedes, ringing a bell and confessing his crime. Wouldn't that tickle the funny bone?

    Sunknow
    March 9, 2005 - 01:02 pm
    Eloise -- that is just a LOVELY idea.

    Sun

    Shasta Sills
    March 9, 2005 - 01:15 pm
    But he shouldn't be allowed to ride in a Mercedes. They ought to make him ride on a camel.

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 9, 2005 - 02:06 pm
    "The most striking of all effects produced by the Arab conquest of North Africa was the gradual but almost complete disappearance of Christianity.

    "The Berbers not only accepted Mohammedanism, they became its most fanatical defenders. Doubtless economic consideration entered. Non-Moslems paid a head tax and converts were for a time free from it.

    "When in 744 the Arab governor of Egypt offered this exemption, 24,000 Christians went over to Islam. Occasional but severe persecutions of Christians may have influenced many to conform to the ruling faith. In Egypt a Coptic minority held out bravely, built their churches like fortresses, maintained their worship in secret, and survive to this day.

    "But the once crowded churches of Alexandria, Cyrene, Carthage, and Hippo were emptied and decayed. The memory of Athanasius, Cyril, and Augustine faded out. The disputes of Arians, Donatists, and Monophysites gave way to the quarrels of Sunni and Ismaili Mohammedanism.

    "The Fatimids propped up their power by gathering the Ismailities into a Grand Lodge of complex initiations and hierarchical debrees. The members were used for political espionage and intrigue. The forms of the order were transmitted to Jerusalem and Europe and strongly influenced the organization, ritual, and garb of the Templars, the Illuminati, and the other secret fraternities of the Western world.

    "The American businessman is periodically a zealous Mohammedan, proud of his secret doctrine, his Moroccan fez, and his Moslem shrine."

    Durant's last sentence is subtle.

    Robby

    Bubble
    March 9, 2005 - 02:28 pm
    Coptic church in Egypt http://www.st-takla.org/Coptic-church-1.html

    winsum
    March 9, 2005 - 02:28 pm
    about the templars. they are mysterious enough so that Ann Rice ncluded them in her horror stories. . . . all powerful and scattered. What abut the Masons? any relationship. I think my father was in terms of heredity but I never saw any sign of it in our lives. . . . Cclaire

    tooki
    March 9, 2005 - 04:50 pm
    of Cairene and Alexandrian fabrics so fine that a robe could be drawn through a finger ring.”(p. 287)

    It is frequently reported in historical materials about Native Americans that the traditional, brain tanned buckskin made by all western tribes was so soft it could be drawn through a finger ring.

    That must be the phrase that historians use to describe soft materials. I made some once, using an Elk cape. Not the same Elk mentioned by the Durants along with the Shriners, and Masons.

    Justin
    March 9, 2005 - 10:52 pm
    I have always looked upon the Shriners and Masons as just another men's club, somewhat like the Elks and Eagles. The Shriners support children's hospitals. The Elks support crippled kiddies programs. I don't really know what the Masons do or represent.Yet previous postings here suggest there is more to these organizations than I recognize.

    Bubble
    March 9, 2005 - 11:13 pm
    Mason are much more. It is a world wide secret fraternity with some clout apparently. Many will not even aknowledge that they are part of it but go to meetings.

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 10, 2005 - 03:43 am
    Islam in the Mediterranean

    649-1071

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 10, 2005 - 03:52 am
    "Having conquered Syria and Egypt, the Moslem leaders realized that they could not hold the coast without a fleet.

    "Soon their men-of-war seized Cyprus and Rhodes and defeated the Byzantine navy (652, 655). Corsica was occupied in 809, Sardinia in 810, Crete in 823, Malta in 870.

    "In 827 the old struggle between Greece and Carthage for Sicily was resumed. The Aghlabid caliphs of Qairwan sent expedition after expedition and the conquest proceeded with leisurely bloodshed and rapine.

    "Palmemo fell in 831, Messina in 843, Syracuse in 878, Taormina in 902.

    "When the Fatimid caliphs succeeded to the Aghlabid power (909) they inherited Sicily as part of their demain.

    "When the Fatimids removed their seat to Cairo their governor of Sicily, Husein al-Kalbi, made himself emir with nearly sovereign authority and established that Kalbite dynasty under which Moslem civilization in Sicily reached its height."

    I had no idea that Sicily had such an Islamic influence!

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 10, 2005 - 04:32 am
    Architecture Sicily

    Architecture Palermo

    Moorish Architecture Sicily

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 10, 2005 - 06:26 am
    Islamic influences: Palermo

    Palermo

    Scrawler
    March 10, 2005 - 09:10 am
    "The American businessman is periodically a zealous Mohammedan, proud of his secret doctrine, his Moroccan fez, and his Moslem shrine."

    I'm not sure what this sentence means. Can someone explain it to me?

    Thanks in advance.

    JoanK
    March 10, 2005 - 09:38 am
    I admit there is so much detail here, I have trouble seeing the forest for the trees.

    I'm going back to the differences between the shi'a and the Sunni. I know they split over who was the heir to Mohammad. But what are the things that have kept this split so important over the centuries. Are there also always ethnic differences at the root of it? What important religious differences have evolved? Excuse the stupid questions.

    tooki
    March 10, 2005 - 10:04 am
    This is my choice, Mal. What's yours?

    Islamic Sects

    Why it's in a site on "Historic Boys Clothing," is the REALLY mysterious question.

    winsum
    March 10, 2005 - 12:33 pm
    most of the examples were greco-roman until this . . . very moorish

    http://www.farhorizon.com/europe/images/images-sicily/sicily_gardens.jpg

    and here in Palemo



    http://www.lightningfield.com/2004/08/173.jpg

    Justin
    March 10, 2005 - 04:32 pm
    I too had no idea that Sicily had so much Muslim influence. More significant,I think, are the Muslim raids upon Rome and lower Italy in the Ninth century. Had the Greeks, Italians and Germans not formed a coalition to push the Muslims out of Italy and not been successful, we would all be concerned today that the Republicans in Congress were too closely associated with the the Imans and Mullahs. Just imagine the impact on Italy if thousands of Christians converted to Islam as happened in Egypt. It is on such threads that the theology of billions depend. How arrogant we are to think that our particular branch of Abrahamism is the only true branch.

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 10, 2005 - 05:11 pm
    Joan:-There are no stupid questions.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 10, 2005 - 05:21 pm
    "Fortified by mastery of the Mediterranean, the Saracens now looked appreciatively on the cities of southern Italy.

    "As piracy was quite within the bounds of honored custom at this time, and Christians and Moslems raided Moslem or Christian shores to capture infidels for sale as slaves, Saracen fleets, mostly from Tunisia or Sicily, began in the ninth century to attack Italian ports.

    "In 841 the Moslems took Bari, the main Byzantine base in southeastern Italy. A year later, invited by the Lombard duke of Benevento to help him against Salerno, they swept across Italy and back, despoiling fields and monasteries as they went.

    "In 846 eleven hundred Moslems landed at Ostia, marched up to the walls of Rome, freely plundered the suburbs and churches of St. Peter and St. Paul, and leisurely returned to their ships. Seeing that no civil authority could organize Italian defense, Pope Leo IV took charge, bound Amalfi, Naples, Gaeta, and Rome in alliance, and had a chain stretched across the Tiber to halt any enemy.

    "In 849 the Saracens made another attempt to seize the citadel of Western Christianity. The united Italian fleet, blessed by the Pope, gave them battle and routed them -- a scene pictured by Raphael in the Stanze of the Vatican.

    "In 866 the emperor Louis II came down from Germany, and drove the marauding Moslems of south Italy back upon Bari and Taranto.

    "By 884 they were expelled from the peninsula."

    We are beginning to see clashes between the Moslems and Europeans.

    Robby

    moxiect
    March 10, 2005 - 07:07 pm


    Robby,

    I was surprised that you had no knowledge of the Moor's in Sicily. Sicily being the melting in ancient times, it stands to reason that Sicily would have also been invaded by the Moors.

    Fifi le Beau
    March 10, 2005 - 07:49 pm
    The muslims invaded Sicily in 827, but they did not conquer the entire land for another 50-60 years. By the time they laid claim to most of Sicily they were fighting each other.

    By 884 the muslims were expelled from the Italian peninsula by the Normans.

    The Normans invaded Sicily and within 30 years had driven the muslims out of Sicily altogether. The Normans took Sicily a town at a time as the muslims had earlier, only they did it in less than half the time it took the muslims.

    The first part of this article discusses the invasion of Sicily by the Normans.

    Normans in Italy and Sicily

    Fifi

    Justin
    March 10, 2005 - 11:06 pm
    In the Ninth century the Saracen fleet and a land contingent were just outside Ostia. They were at the gates of Rome. The south of Italy was in Muslim hands and the Pope would have been offered the chance to convert in lieu of a head tax. The fleet was driven off by an army and Navy blessed and led by the Papacy. Durant says a painting, perhaps a fresco, by Raphael Sanzio lodged in the Stanza Segnatura at the Vatican commemorates the event. I cannot remember seeing the work, though I have no doubt it exists.It is called the "Battle of Ostia" and it is in all probability located in the Room of the Incendio. Mal, it would be nice if you could find it and bring it up. Raphael's work is such a pleasure to look upon.

    winsum
    March 10, 2005 - 11:40 pm
    took two seconds to find this

    http://www.poster-und-kunstdrucke.de/cgi-bin/art?HTML=list/main_list.htm&INCLUDE=SHOW&VS_MOTIV_ID=3228000&VS_COUNTRY_ID=2250&PID=800 M

    now will it work

    yep it does. kinda long though. but hot links work here if you just put a couple of spaces on either side. You don't need to code them.

    claire

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 11, 2005 - 04:30 am
    "Central Italy lived through a generation of daily fear.

    "In 876 the Moslems pillaged the Campagna. Rome was so endangered that the pope paid the Saracens a yearly bribe of 25,000 mancuci (c.$25,000) to keep the peace.

    "In 884 they burned the great monastery of Monte Cassino to the ground. In sporadic attacks they ravaged the valley of the Anio.

    "Finally the combined forces of the pope, the Greek and German emperors, and the cities of southern and central Italy defeated them on the Garigliano (916), and a tragic century of invasion came to an end.

    "Italy, perhaps Christianity had had a narrow escape. Had Rome fallen, the Saracens would have advanced upon Venice. Venice taken, Constantinople would have been wedged in between two concentrations of Moslem power.

    "On such chances of battle hung the theology of billions of men."

    And so the doctrines to which people state they belong depend, not on belief, but on battles?

    Robby

    tooki
    March 11, 2005 - 04:50 am
    Thanks, Justin, for the title. Try this one:

    Raphael's Battle of Ostia

    Justin's job is to keep us supplied with names, possibilities, and appreciation.

    tooki
    March 11, 2005 - 04:58 am
    "The Battle of Ostia," is painted on the wall of some "stanze" in the Vatican. Apparently the Vatican has these "stanzes" all over the place. They seem to be rooms devoted to various painters and topics. I spent some time looking for "Raphael's "Stanze."

    Bubble
    March 11, 2005 - 05:10 am
    "Stanza" in Italian means "room".

    moxiect
    March 11, 2005 - 07:43 am


    Fifi, thank you for that link in your post 280.

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 11, 2005 - 02:49 pm
    Is anyone interested in the last comments of Durant?

    Robby

    Justin
    March 11, 2005 - 03:23 pm
    The last comment by Durant is what we are discussing at the moment. The battle of Ostia is central to saving Rome from the Saracens. Fifty years later another Pope pulled together an army of Greeks Germans and Southern Italian cities and sent Islam back to Mecca. In Raphael's fresco we see the Pope- Leo I think, beheading Muslim prisoners on the shore of Ostia. Ostia by the way is a seaport only a short distance from Rome. It is crucial that the port remain open for food stuffs (grain) to supply Rome. These comments and this painting depict exactly what Durant is now covering.

    Justin
    March 11, 2005 - 03:40 pm
    Tooki the color is good on the copy of the image you found. Thank You.

    The fresco is a large complex image that would not have been possible without the foreshortening technigues of Masaccio and the battle scenes of Michelangelo and Leonardo. Many figures engaged in killing and being killed fill the composition. The presence of the Pope ties it all together. Michelangelo and Leonardo were each given an opposite wall in the vatican to show their stuff in a competition. Michelangelo entered the Battle of Naked Men. It is that compostion that solved many of the problems Raphael faced in his fresco,"Ostia."

    The Fresco is in the Stanza Incendio in the Vatican.

    tooki
    March 11, 2005 - 04:48 pm
    I think one could make a case that the battle for men's souls is more effective at having men change faiths than is the "chance of battle."

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    March 11, 2005 - 05:37 pm
    Today's Montreal Gazette regarding Sharia to settle family dispute,

    "Keep Islamic law out of Canada, Quebec politician urge. Minister suggest province reject Muslim immigrants who favour system"

    Gazette Headline

    Justin
    March 11, 2005 - 06:38 pm
    Tooki: More effective than a spiritual force in inducing conversion is the power of a conqueror with a diferent religion. He has two weapons at his command. He may grant freedom from a head tax or he may remove one's head if one does not convert. It's hard to imagine a Sunday sermon being quite as effective. Although, I must admit, some preachers are pretty effective in bringing in the sheep.

    Fifi le Beau
    March 11, 2005 - 08:14 pm
    Robby asked, "And so the doctrines to which people state they belong depend, not on belief, but on battles?"

    Battles would win my vote. When the muslims took over in Egypt the country was Christian. They immediately put a tax on the head of any non muslim, with a sword dangling above it, so the majority said we will simply be muslim. Living will always win out over dying when the cause is lost for the majority.

    Most people will roll with the flow, one god, two gods, or no gods they accept the rule of the despot along with the rule of the benevolent. Without a strong leader the masses are at the mercy of the invaders, and accept their fate.

    Had the Normans attacked Egypt within a few years, and imposed Christian rule again after routing the muslims, Egypt would have reverted to Christianity as did Sicily. In Spain the Christians did to the muslims what the muslims did to the Egyptians. They made new laws and enforced them as the muslims did when they arrived. Spain became Christian again.

    One of the Caliphs is quoted in a previous posting, "Religion is for the masses, and philosophy is for the educated." Gods have been used to control the masses by the mostly corrupt and greedy power holding strong men since time began.

    If the conqueror wishes to impose a religion on the masses, he will do so with laws and fines or other more severe punishments. Since the people are already conquered, they will accept it without much ado. When you consider that most of the people a thousand years ago were uneducated, it was easier to impose.

    All these people had seen a lot of gods come and go over time, what difference did another one or two make.

    Fifi

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 11, 2005 - 08:49 pm
    How about America and other nations in the Western culture? Do you folks believe that the majority of people belong to doctrines based on their beliefs?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 11, 2005 - 09:00 pm
    "Meanwhile the polyglot culture of Sicily, yielding with the grace of habit to new conquerors, took on a Moslem veneer.

    "Sicilians, Greeks, Lombards, Jews, Berbers, and Arabs mingled in the streets of the Moslem capital -- ancient Panormus, Arabic Balerm, Italian Palermo. All hating one another religiously, but living together with no more than a Sicilian average of passion, poetry, and crime.

    "Here Ibn Hawqal, about 970, found some 300 mosques, and 300 school teachers who were highly regarded by the inhabitants 'in spite of the fact,' says the geographer, 'that school teachers are notorious for their mental deficiency and light brains.'

    "With sunshine and rain co-operating to make a lush vegetation, Sicily was an agricultural paradise. The clever Arabs reaped the fruits of a well-managed economy. Palermo became a port of exchange between Christian Europe and Moslem Africa. Soon it was one of the richest cities in Islam.

    "The Moslem flair for fine dress, brilliant jewelry, and the arts of decoration made for a life of otium cum dignitate -- leisure without vulgarity.

    "The Sicilian poet Ibn Hamdis (c.1055-1132) describes the vivacious hours of Palermitan youth. The midnight revels, the jolly raid on a convent to buy wine from a surprised but genial nun, the gay mingling of men and women in festival, 'when the King of the revels has outlawed care,' and singing girls tease the lute with slender fingers, and dance 'like resplendent moons on the stems of willowy trees.'"

    It all sounds very Italian to me.

    Robby

    moxiect
    March 11, 2005 - 09:59 pm


    Same here, Robby. Very much Sicilian

    Justin
    March 11, 2005 - 10:19 pm
    When the Saracens destroyed Monte Cassino in 875 the monks must have been going about their daily routine of rising at five a.m. and progressing in silence through a day of prayer, study and worship until the Gregorian chant of Vespers and Compline. The routine of their lives was probably the same in the winter of 1943 when the armies of Kesselring and Alexander clashed at Cassino.New Zealanders, Indians, Poles and a U.S. division on the way to Rome all came to a halt before the Monastery.

    The monks were chanting. It was Christmas time. But the hills in and around the Monastery were crawling with Germans. Clark's Fifth Army stopped before the Rapido River. On May 10, after bombing Monte Cassino, 1600 pieces of artillery opened up and Poles, New Zealanders, French Morrocans, Indians, and US troops plunged into the River and started the push to Rome. Monte Cassino Monastery, the home of the Benedictines, was no more for a second time.

    It has since been rebuilt with twentieth century tools and materials but the Bramante Cloister for which it was known is gone, never to return.It was last seen by German snipers who nestled among the broken stones to pick off the enemy charging over the Rapido River.

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 12, 2005 - 04:11 am

    Monte Cassino 1944

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 12, 2005 - 04:24 am
    This link will lead you to many more links about MONTE CASSINO. My grandfather was born not too far from there.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 12, 2005 - 04:26 am
    Spanish Islam

    711 - 1086

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 12, 2005 - 04:35 am
    "It was at first the Moors, not the Arabs, who conquered Spain.

    "Tariq was a Berber, and his army had 7000 Berbers to 300 Arabs. His name is embedded in the rock at whose foot his forces landed. The Moors came to call it Gebel al-Tariq, the Mountain of Tariq, which Europe compressed into Gibraltar.

    "Tariq had been sent to Spain by Musa ibn Nusayr, Arab governor of North Africa. In 712 Musa crossed with 10,000 Arabs and 8000 Moors, besieged and captured Seville and Marida, rebuked Tariq for exceeding orders, struck him with a whip, and cast him into prison.

    "The Caliph Walid recalled Musa and freed Tariq, who resumed his cocnquest. Musa had appointed his son Abd al-Aziz governor of Seville. Suleiman, Walid's brother, suspected Abd al-Aziz of plotting to make himself independent sovereign of Spain, and despatched assassins to kill him. The head was brought to Suleiman, now caliph, at Damascus. He sent for Musa, who asked:-'Grant me his head, that I may close his eyes.'

    "Within a year Musa died of grief. We may believe that the story is only a bloody legend."

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 12, 2005 - 05:35 am
    Muslim Territory Spain

    Moors Spain

    Great Mosque at Cordoba. Click thumbnails for larger pictures

    JoanK
    March 12, 2005 - 09:10 am
    Thank you for the link on Shiia and Sunni. The rift really does go back 1200 years. It makes as much sense to an outsider as the rift between Catholics and Protestants that we will see leading to so much death and misery soon.

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 12, 2005 - 10:51 am
    Here is what the MUSLIMS IN SPAIN are doing these days.

    Robby

    Bubble
    March 12, 2005 - 11:10 am
    I find it all very scary. I can't see the end of it.

    tooki
    March 12, 2005 - 01:59 pm
    “In the western culture do the majority of people belong to doctrines based on their beliefs,"

    Yes, but only because Protestants, and all their descendent sects, and Catholics stopped killing each other round about the 18th century, wasn’t it? And our forefathers noticed.

    In 1568 Peter Paul Ruben’s (1577-1640) father, a Calvinist, fled Antwerp to escape religious persecution. And in a fascinating segue in a review of Ruben’s drawings at the New York Metropolitan Museum of Art there is this factoid. In 1599, half of Europe was Protestant; by 1650 only 20 percent was because of the Counter Reformation.

    My view is that most folks believe in some sort of God. Even if Europe is increasingly more secular than the United States, as one hears, they still got all the baggage.

    Justin
    March 12, 2005 - 04:10 pm
    Europe is more secular than the US perhaps, because Europeans have experienced first hand the horrors of religious power. We, in the US, benefited from European experience with religions and our constitutional authors, as a result, ensured a separation between church and state for us.

    However, because we have not experienced the great horrors of religion in the US, many of our citizens are deluded into thinking that merging religion and government would be a good thing. Religious citizens are forever tugging at the first amendment and occasionaly they are more successful than I would wish. When that happens Mr. and Mrs John Q. Public are oppressed. The nice thing is that the oppression can, with organized opposition, be turned about.

    Justin
    March 12, 2005 - 04:22 pm
    Bubble: I think you are right to be fearful. The world is a scarey place today and not much more civilized that it was in the first millennium. We do things in different ways today and we have improved our living conditions but power hungry people (bullies) still threaten the peace.Some we put in jail. Others we elect to the highest office.

    Justin
    March 12, 2005 - 04:33 pm
    Who were the Moors? Othello, the Venetian general was a Moor. El Cid gave battle to the Moors and drove them out of Spain for King Alfonso. Little Black Sambo was a blackamoor. Durant says they were a mixture of Arabs and Berbers. Who were the Moors and are they still around?.

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 12, 2005 - 05:30 pm
    Possible origin of the MOORS.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 12, 2005 - 05:40 pm
    "The victors treated the conquered leniently, confiscated the lands only of those who had actively resisted, exacted no greater tax than had been levied by the Visigothic kings, and gave to religious worship, a freedom rare in Spain.

    "Having established their position in the peninsula, the Moslems scaled the Pyrenees and entered Gaul, intent upon making Europe a province of Damascus.

    "Between Tours and Poitiers, a thousand miles north of Gibraltar, they were met by the united forces of Eudes, Duke of Aquitaine, and Charles, Duke of Austrasia. After seven days of fighting, the Moslems were defeated in one of the most crucial battles of history (732).

    "Again the faith of countless millions was determined by the chances of war. Thenceforth Charles was Carolus Martellus, or Martel, Charles the Hammer.

    "In 735 the Moslems tried again, and captured Arles.

    "In 737 they took Avignon and ravaged the valley of the Rhone to Lyons.

    "In 759 Pepin the Short finally expelled them from the south of France. But their forty years of circulation there may have influenced Languedoc's unusual tolerance of diverse faiths, its colorful gaiety its flair for songs of unpermitted love."

    And so the religious doctrine that the average person follows is determined not only by the fates of war but also by the gentle mixture of cultures.

    Robby

    winsum
    March 12, 2005 - 07:52 pm
    I have a friend who grew up in Iran and when I asked if Arabic and farsi were the same in origin and use she was very indignant. she said that Arabic was an UGLY language and that Farsi was beautiful. I had occasion to knw my boss's wife who spoke very little english and we gave each other lessons. I taught her English and she tried to teach me farsi.. It didn't go on for very long but I found that farsi is grammatically simple and all yo need is vocabulary.

    It is the principal language used in "Persia" and here by the "Persian" community. My friend grew up in Tehran, upper classes. she was taught science and math but the arts were considered to be frivolous. She and her husband came here as newly weds, running away because the families didn't want them to wed. He had a kidney problem and that was enough for them.

    They have a son and live here in Orange County CA. . . although we haven't spoken for a couple of years we could. there is no real social division although the Persians here do business with their own as opposed to doing it with Americans.

    Her name is Fari. . .accent on the i.and she now works in psychological counseling in english.

    Claire

    tooki
    March 12, 2005 - 08:30 pm
    is now called multiculturism. This gentle mixing may make us feel good about celebrating diversity, but it has perhaps inhibited historic understanding of ethnic orgins. The following link presents some of the difficulties in determining just who the Moors were or are.

    Who Are The Moors?

    Justin
    March 12, 2005 - 08:50 pm
    Aquiline noses, Sri Lanka, Tamil language, broad heads,narrow heads,... these are Moors?

    Bubble
    March 13, 2005 - 12:20 am
    Charles Martel, Pepin le Hardi, Pepin le Bref and all the other Pepins... How I sweated In class on your prowesses with locations and dates to remember. I never imagined I would hear about them again, the Carolingians and the Merovengians, without forgetting Charlemagne with his flowering beard and inventor of schools.

    winsum
    March 13, 2005 - 01:24 am
    dolicocephalic and jewish but from germany. How did we get up there? . . . . claire

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 13, 2005 - 02:29 am

    I have been sick. This sickness has been accompanied by considerable physical pain. Enough that I began thinking about mortality -- my own.

    There's been much physical pain in the course of my life, more than that of many people, I'd venture to say. This time it is not easily tolerable. I have been in and out of bed with this illness, up at three or four hour intervals, I suppose. I woke up this time thinking of all the things I have not said, and all the things I'm not allowed to say because of the mufflimg blanket of political correctness that successfully stifles me.

    I am not allowed to say, for example, how much I dislike the Islam that seems to think everybody should believe in it.

    I can't say how much I dislike for the same reason what's mistakenly called Christianity.

    Nor, in fact, am I able to say how much I mistrust and fear the mind-bending power and force of most religions, or organized beliefs at all, and that includes atheism.

    No, I can't say those things because I might insult and hurt somebody's feelings. How many times have they done that to mine? I roll with the punches. To complain seems like a waste of time..

    Over and over since I've been in this discussion I've seen Durant talk about how cultures and religions were driven by the sword. A mantle of avowed religious goodness has covered the most despicable acts.

    Recently I came across two articles in which the authors have not been afraid to say what they think. One is by Frank Rich in the New York Times. The other is an interview by Believer Online Magazine with Marjorie Grene, 94 year old philosopher and Prrofessor Emeritus of Philosophy at Virginia Tech.

    Rich talks about censorship in the media and elsewhere that has grown in this country since September 11, 2001. "Watch what you say."

    Grene speaks her mind about philosophers, present and past in a frank and honest way that delights me, whether I agree with her or not. I have linked these articles below.

    Now, my major decision at this moment is whether to go back to bed, or to do the kind of work that keeps me "Stayin' Alive."


    Frank Rich

    Marjorie Grene

    Mal

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 13, 2005 - 03:26 am
    Sorry to hear that you have been feeling so bad, Mal. Is your daughter, Dorian, near by?

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 13, 2005 - 03:43 am

    Yes, ROBBY, Dorian is within calling distance. Just the fact that I've been able to talk about how very bad I've been feeling gives me the indication that I'm recovering today. I imagine that soon I'll be as feisty as ever.

    Mal

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 13, 2005 - 03:48 am
    Mal speaks about Islam thinking that everyone should believe in it. This ARTICLE in this morning's NY Times addresses that issue.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 13, 2005 - 04:49 am
    "The caliphs of Damascus undervalued Spain. Until 756 it was merely 'the district of Andalusia' and was governed from Qairwan.

    "In 755 a romantic figure landed in Spain, armed only with royal blood, and destined to establish a dynasty that would rival in wealth and glory the caliphs of Baghdad. When in 750 the triumphant Abbasids ordered all princes of the Umayyad family slain, Abd-er-Rahman, grandson of the Caliph Hisham, was the only Umayyad who escaped. Hunted from village to village, he swam the broad Euphrates, crossed into Palestine, Egypt and Africa and finally reached Morocco.

    "News of the Abbasid revolution had intensified the factional rivalry of Arabs, Syrians, Persians, and Moors in Spain. An Arab group loyal to the Umayyads, fearing that the Abbasid caliph might question their titles to lands given them by Umayyad governors, invited Abd-er-Rahman to join and lead them. He came, and was made emir of Cordova (756).

    "He defeated an army commissioned by the Caliph al-Mansur to unseat him and sent the head of its general to be hung before a palace in Mecca.

    "Perhaps it was these events that saved Europe from worshiping Mohammed.

    "Moslem Spain, weakened with civil war and deprived of external aid, ceased to conquer and withdrew even from northern Spain. From the ninth to the eleventh century the peninsula was divided into Moslem and Christian by a line running from Coimbra through Saragossa and along the Ebro River.

    "The Moslem south, finally pacified by Abd-er-Rahman I and his successors, blossomed into riches, poetry, and art. Abd-er-Rahman II (822-52) enjoyed the fruits of this prosperity. Amid border wars with the Christians, rebellions among his subjects, and Norman raids on his coasts, he found time to beautify Cordova with palaces and mosques, rewarded poets handsomely and forgave offenders with an amiable lenience tht may have shared in producing the social disorder tht followed his reign."

    As we follow the current news about Spain, Durant's words may help us to better understand the dynamics and tension in that nation.

    Robby

    Bubble
    March 13, 2005 - 05:14 am
    I never understood why El Qaeda would put a bomb in the train station there. Reconquest seems far stretched.

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    March 13, 2005 - 05:46 am
    Mal I am so sorry that you have been in worse pain and I don't blame you for lashing out at all. I have never suffered physically like you but when I am in any kind of discomfort or pain I tend to lash out at all kinds of 'isms' too, including nationalism. There was one time, oh! so long ago when I was young, I used to resent anglicism because it seemed to me at the time that it was at the root of all our problems here, but I soon realized that it was not so and I wanted to learn it at all cost.

    In the name of religion we have terrorism, but looking deeper I have to realize that it is not religion that is the cause, but territory and wealth. But why more territory if there is enough to feed the population? Because it means more gain for the ruling class, OK fair enough, but why would the ruling class, who already owns territory and wealth, want for more? To go to war for mercenary purposes would not go over very well with the lower class so a more lofty cause has to be found.

    This is where the Holy Book comes in handy. Catholicism vs Protestantism. Communism vs Imperialism. Islamism vs Christianism. The economy is the reason for wars and terrorism and religion is its scapegoat.

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 13, 2005 - 05:53 am

    ELOISE, I was not "lashing out." I was stating my honest views based on study and observation, just as you did. I have these same views whether I'm in pain or not; I just don't talk about them except to a very few people.

    Mal

    tooki
    March 13, 2005 - 06:55 am
    for posting to the NYT. You know it doesn't get out here in the West until later. Comments:

    1. I think we are on a pendulum swing to extreme "conservatism" after about fifty years, more counting FDR, of "liberalism." How bad can it get? Read Durant and find out! He covers those historic periods of conservatism well.

    2. Descarte's "Cogito," as discussed by good ol' Marjorie. It's a little known fact, but I will share with you, that Rene had that thought while on guard duty with the Swiss army. He was sitting there, soaking wet in his boiled wool uniform, and had this EPIPHANY! "Je pense, donc je suis," or, Cogito ergo sum. It is alleged that what he should have said is, "Dubito, ergo sum, or, I doubt, therefore I am. The point is, anyone sitting for hours and hours in a wet, boiled wool, army uniform, would have an epiphany

    Now I must walk to calm my fevered brow.

    Scrawler
    March 13, 2005 - 08:57 am
    To me it is Money rather than religion that is the root of all evil. A poor country does not Make war, but a rich one can and there by impose its will on the poorer country.

    Perhaps those that accept a religion with a Knife to their throat do so because they can Survive. After all another person might have the Power to kill you, but he doesn't have the Power to extract what is in your heart and mind.

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 13, 2005 - 09:10 am
    Is that true that no one can extract what is in your heart and mind?

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 13, 2005 - 12:06 pm

    A man convinced against his will remains a firm believer still. This doesn't apply to his children, though.

    Just to make things clear: In my Post #318 this morning, I made no mention of war. I was talking about censorship and the dimininishment and reining in of freedom of speech and other freedoms in this country.

    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 13, 2005 - 12:54 pm
    Al Quaeda in Spain

    Jihadist take stand on the web

    Jihad recruitment

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 13, 2005 - 05:15 pm
    Further information about ISLAMIC PLOTS IN SPAIN TODAY.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 13, 2005 - 05:29 pm
    "Seville succeeded to the glory of Cordova.

    "Some thought it fairer than that capital. People loved it for its gardens, palm trees, and roses, and a gaiety always ready with music dance, and song.

    "Anticipating the fall of Cordova, it made itself independent in 1023. Its chief justice, Abu'l Qasim Muhammad, found a mat-maker resembling Hisham II, hailed him as Caliph, housed and guided him, and persuaded Valencia, Tortosa, even Cordova, to recognize him.

    "By this simple device the subtle jurist founded the brief Abbadid dynasty. When he died (1042), his son Abbad al-Mutadid succeeded him, ruled Seville with skill and cruelty for twenty-seven years, and extended his power until half of Moslem Spain paid him tribute.

    "His son al-Mutamid (1068-91), at the age of twenty-six, inherited his realm, but neither his ambition nor his cruelty. Al-Mutamid was the greatest poet of Moslem Spain. He preferred the company of poets and musicians to tht of politicians and generals, and rewarded his able rivals in poetry with unenvious hand. He thought it not too much to give a thousand ducats ($2,290) for an epigram.

    "He liked Ibn Ammar's poetry and made him vizier. He heard a girl slave, Rumaykiyya, improvise excellent verses. He bought her, married her, and loved her passionately until his death while not neglecting the other beauties of his harem. Rumaykiyya filled the palace with her laughter and drew her lord into a spiral of gaiety.

    "Theologians blamed her for her husband's coolness to religion and the near emptiness of the city's mosques. Nevertheless al-Mutamid could rule as well as love and sing. When Toledo attacked Cordova and Cordova asked his aid, he sent trops who saved the city from Toledo and made it subject to Seville.

    "The poet-king stood for a precarious generation at the head of a civilization as brilliant as Baghdad's under Harun, as Cordova's under al-Mansur."

    Never underestimate the power of a woman, even in matters of religion.

    In the process of finding the mat-maker in Seville, I wonder if the chief justice happened to come across a barber.

    Robby

    Justin
    March 13, 2005 - 05:42 pm
    The idea that religion, particularly Christianity, is some how, at its root, a good thing and that most,if not all, manifestations of it are flawed by human hands. That notion, as well as the notion of political correctness, prevents society from rooting out a source of great evil.

    In the US it is difficult to talk about religion for fear of spreading hatred and bigotry. The fear that a beloved neighbor will be offended by our words is very great. So one says nothing and the evil continues unchecked.

    Mal, even though your pain is very great you still manage to challenge us with your words of wisdom. When you say," what's mistakenly called Christianity," what do you mean?

    Scrawler and Eloise; Your response to Mal's your challenge tells me you think religion is a scapegoat and that money is the true root of evil and terror. I think we should examine the topic carefully. We may find that religion is evil because of the exclusivity characteristic and the evangelical drive.(I don't think the delusional characteristics of religion are necessarily evil.) Greed is also evil when exercised in excess. These things are not mutually exclusive. It is not a zero -sum issue we are dealing with here. Religion and greed,both elements apply.

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 13, 2005 - 09:07 pm
    Others here may know the Bible better than I but I believe that the proper Biblical quote is not "money is the root of all evil" but "the love of money is the root of all evil."

    Robby

    Justin
    March 13, 2005 - 10:34 pm
    Robby: You are right as usual.One can find the quote in Timothy, chapter 6,verse 10. A little further on in verse 12 we find "Fight the good fight of faith." It is in this and many similar verses that one learns that he/she is directed to fight for the faith. Here in lies some of the evil that is a part of religion. In this case it is Christianity but with little difficulty one can show that similar direction is given to Muslims and to Jews.

    Bubble
    March 13, 2005 - 11:43 pm
    Greed is also evil when exercised in excess. says Justin.

    Isn't all excess deleterious, always? The hardship is to keep in the limits of a beneficial dose and not more. Have religion if you need it but stay liberal toward others. Be greedy enough to keep saving, but allow others to spend as they wish without you limiting them. Talk as you want, but making it clear you are not judging people in particular nor trying to change them by force. This would make life easier to live and communication more forthcoming.

    From the last few days, I have been amazed about how so many names here - which I am sure are totally alien and unheard before by most of you - are for me so familiar and heard daily: Walid, Tafiq, Abbadid (Abushdid) are all common family names here and I am not talking of the Arab population.

    Yes, it has been said that women with strong traits could move mountains and have much influence. Rumaykiyya's success was much in keeping her husband in love with her.

    tooki
    March 14, 2005 - 06:43 am
    historically and contemporarily, is explained and described in this wonderfulful site developed by a Muslim student who, apparently, was a student in Spain. Note the dedication to his professor at the top of the home page.

    Andulusla When It Was...

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 14, 2005 - 07:34 am

    "Muslims entered Spain not as aggressors or oppressors, but as liberators."


    Where have I heard this old song before?

    Mal

    moxiect
    March 14, 2005 - 10:07 am


    greed = money; money = power; power = absolute power; absolute power = averice.

    legend = myths; myths = belief; belief = religion.

    choas = war; war vs peace; peace = "WHAT, WHO, WHEN and HOW".

    These are the equations I have been formulating from this discussion. Very interesting as throughout there has man inhumanity to man; man's interpretation of their religious beliefs.

    Somewhere and in TIME perhaps 9/11 laid the base of all religions to realize each road taken by ones belief lead to the same place and this planet will finally allow peace for everyone to be attained.

    HubertPaul
    March 14, 2005 - 11:25 am
    moxiect :"......and this planet will finally allow peace......"

    From my notes (Yoga philosophical studies) of about 25 years ago:

    “The evolutionary tide is sweeping mankind into the direction of forming a functioning whole. History and circumstance conspire to this end, for their future is henceforth one. The evolutionary tide is sweeping them into the direction of forming a functioning whole. This means that eventually all existing man made boundaries between countries will break down and vanish, that a broad internationalism will replace old narrow nationalisms and that each people will contribute to as well profit by the common welfare. “

    In my opinion, it will happen....after the next war, which will be a nuclear war. And then, a long, long period of peace...till all horror will be forgotten, and we’ll be back to “Square One.”

    Fifi le Beau
    March 14, 2005 - 01:18 pm
    The muslims invaded Spain for the same reasons they invaded all other countries. They wanted what Spain had in talent and resources. They were invaders and occupiers and were fought continuously until they were thrown out of Spain for good.

    The status of Islam rested on the Caliph, and if that leader was like al Mutamid who was interested in poetry and not religion, and the people were no longer strong armed into mosques, the mosque was empty. So much for the power of Islam, without the mullahs beating people in with a stick, they came to be quite empty.

    As has happened in every event since the beginning of time, a woman was blamed. There was little to fear in blaming a woman, blaming the caliph would have been more dangerous. The mullahs may have been devious scheming liars, but they didn't want to die for it.

    Even today in the birthplace of Islam, the people are threatened and beaten into the mosque. The Arabian religious police are working overtime to make sure no shopkeeper is open and the streets are empty when they come down with their sticks to enforce mosque attendance.

    Without these enforcers the mosque would quietly decline as it did elsewhere. What does it say about a religion that has to beat and force it's people into worship its gods? To me, it speaks of greed, power, and control, the evil triplets.

    Fifi

    3kings
    March 14, 2005 - 03:02 pm
    Fifi, you write :- Even today in the birthplace of Islam, the people are threatened and beaten into the mosque. The Arabian religious police are working overtime to make sure no shopkeeper is open and the streets are empty when they come down with their sticks to enforce mosque attendance.

    Have you any first hand evidence of that? I ask, because it sounds so much like the claims made about the Communists in Poland. It was said that groups were going about the towns and villages, actively preventing the people from attending mass. When my wife visited Poland, her birth place, in the '70s we saw no evidence of such activity.

    True, the authorities tried to discourage church attendance, with propoganda, and by not placing catholics in top positions, but no physical beating of worshipers was ever indulged in. ( Except in one case when some louts, to the consternation of the communist authorities, killed a priest. and a Cardinal once found it safer to seek refuge in a foreign embassy) The Priests killers were promtly charged with murder. +++ Trevor

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 14, 2005 - 03:39 pm
    Civilization in Moorish Spain

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 14, 2005 - 03:52 pm
    "'Never was Andalusia so mildly, justly, and wisely governed as by her Arab conquerors.'

    "It is the judgment of a great Christian Orientalist, whose enthusiasm may require some discounting of his praise. But after due deductions his verdict stands.

    "The emirs and caliphs of Spain were as cruel as Machiavelli thought necessary to the stability of a government. Sometimes they were barbarously and callously cruel, as when Mutadid grew flowers in the skulls of his dead foes, or as when the poetic Mutamid hacked to pieces the lifelong friend who had at last betrayed and insulted him.

    "Against these stray instances al-Maqqari gives a hundred examples of the justice, liberality, and refinement of the Umayyad rulers of Spain. They compare favorably with the Greek emperors of their time. They were certainly an improvement upon the illiberal Visigothic regime that had preceded them.

    "Their management of public affairs was the most competent in the Western world of that age. Laws were rational and humane and were administered by a well-organized judicary. For the most part the conquered, in their internal affairs, were governed by their own laws and their own officials. Towns were well policed. Markets, weights and measures were effectively supervised. A regular census recorded population and property.

    "Taxation was reasonable compared with the imposts of Rome or Byzantium. The revenues of the Cordovan caliphate under Abd-er-Rahman III reached 12,045,000 gold dinars ($57,213,750) -- probably more than the united governmental revenues of Latin Christendomn.

    "But these receipts were due not so much to high taxes as to well-governed and proressive agriculture, industry, and trade."

    Robby

    Fifi le Beau
    March 14, 2005 - 06:15 pm
    Trevor, I put a link here within the last few months from a writer who had gone to Saudi Arabia to help young journalists in a new start up newspaper in the capitol city. It originally appeared in the New Yorker, but once they archive most articles aren't available online. I did find a synopsis by the writer on a web site and posted that link here. It was rather long, and there are many links so perhaps you didn't read it.

    Regardless, here is an article that discusses what I wrote about and I'm sure you will remember the incident. It was in all the papers and news.

    Saudi school girls die in fire

    Fifi

    3kings
    March 14, 2005 - 07:13 pm
    Fifi, I must bow to your greater knowledge of life in Saudi Arabia, and also note that the report came from the BBC, a very trustworthy news organization. Thankyou for your help.

    The case reminds me of an episode here in NZ, when some 40 young women were killed in a department store fire.

    In the subsequent investigation, it was claimed that store management had locked the doors and not allowed staff to leave immediately the alarm rang. It was said the girls were not allowed to leave the premises until the cash had been properly secured and accounted for. The delay was said to have led to the girls' deaths, but I don't think the court was convinced that was the actual course of events.+++ Trevor

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 15, 2005 - 02:34 am
    "The Arab conquest was a transient boon to the native peasantry.

    "The overgrown estates of the Visigothic nobles were broken up and the serfs became proprietors. But the forces that in these centuries were making for feudalism operated in Spain, too, although better resisted than in France.

    "The Arab leaders in their turn accumulated large tracts and framed them with tenants verging on serfdom. Serfs were slightly better treated by the Moors than by their former owners and the slaves of non-Moslems could free themselves merely by professing Islam.

    "The Arabs for the most part left the actual work of agriculture to the conquered. However, they used the latest manuals of agronomy and under their direction agricultural science developed in Spain far in advance of Christian Europe.

    "The leisurely oxen, hitherto universally used in Spain for plowing or draft were largely replaced by the mule, the ass, and the horse. Stock breeding of Spanish with Arab strains produced the 'noble breed' of the Arab horseman and the Spanish caballero.

    "Moslem Spain brought from Asia, and taught to Christian Europe, the culture of rice, buckwheat, sugar cane, pomegranates, cotton, spinach, asparagus, silk, bananas, cherries, oranges, lemons, quinces, grapefruit, peaches, dates, figs, strawberries, ginger, myrrh. The cultivation of the vine was a major industry among the Moors whose religion forbade wine. Market gardens, olive groves, and fruit orchards made some areas of Spain -- notably around Cordova, Granada, and Valencia -- 'garden spots of the world.'

    "The island of Majorca, won by the Moors in the eighth century, became under their husbandry a paradise of fruits and flowers, dominated by the data palm that later gave its name to the capital."

    As we look at the Muslim Moors of that time and the lack of enlightenment of the Christians in Europe, I ask myself what right we have to look down at Islam of today. Are we just in the temporary "upcycle" and are destined to see our so-called "knowledge" taken over by the Islamic civilization and improved?

    Robby

    tooki
    March 15, 2005 - 04:33 am
    Oswald Spengler,1880-1936, wrote "The Decline of the West," around 1922. In it he argued that "all cultures are subject to the same cycle of growth and decay in accordance with historical distiny."

    Interestingly, his theories gave great hopes to the Nazis. I suppose because they indicated it was time for a new Third Reiche. (sp?). His theories are currently in disrepute because of the encouragement they gave the Nazis.

    It is possible to think that his theories are currently comforting the various terrorist groups in the world. "My time is coming!"

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 15, 2005 - 05:06 am
    "The most striking point which strikes the eye concerning Islam and the history of Islam is that Islam completely changes the one who accepts it, however ignorant, rude and ill-mannered, into an embodiment of almost all virtues and human values. The intellectual, religious, cultural, social and economic decadence of the pre-Islamic, nomadic Arabs is known to everybody who has some familiarity with the subject. It was Islam which elevated them into being the guides and teachers of humanity for centuries, and models for every age. The manner displayed by the Muslim envoy to the Commander-in-chief of the Sassanid armies at the battle of Qadsiye, and the speech he made before that commander is enough for one of good reasoning to perceive how Islam changed 'stones' into 'gold or diamond', a point which is sufficient by itself to prove the Divine origin of Islam."

    "It was Islam which turned the course of human thought from superstition, love for the unnatural and the inexplicable, and monasticism towards a rational approach, love for reality, and a pious, balanced worldly life. It was Islam which inspired the urge for rational and scientific researches and proofs to verify the truth of established convictions. It was Islam which opened the eyes of those who had been accustomed until then to identify God with the natural phenomena. It was Islam which, in place of baseless speculation, led human beings to the path of rational understanding and sound reasoning on the basis of observation, experiment and research. It was Islam which clearly defined the limits and functions of sense-perception, reason, intuition, and spiritual experience. It was Islam which brought about a rapprochment between the spiritual and the material values. It was Islam which harmonized Faith with Knowledge and Action.

    "It was Islam which eradicated idolatry, man-worship, and polytheism in all its forms, and created a firm faith in the Unity of God. It was Islam which showed the path of spiritual evolution, moral emancipation, and attainment of salvation through active participation in the practical affairs of the world in which we live."

    Source:

    Islam from past to future

    Islam technology:

    Astronomy serving Islam through the internet

    Islamic site: The doctor and modern biomedical advances

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 15, 2005 - 05:30 am
    "Feminism is another cruel New World Order hoax that has debauched American women and despoiled Western civilization. It has ruined millions of lives and represents a lethal threat to Islam."
    I talked the other day about how I think there's a diminishment of freedoms in the United States and how it bothers me. Am I willing to go one step further and put on the Burka?

    Am I willing to be segregated in my home away from male society?

    Am I willing to accept my husband's word about what I can do, say and think as law?

    Do I agree that laws that the Qur'an shall be the laws of my country?

    Am I willing that my children and grandchildren shall go to school and spend a large percentage of their time studying the Qur'an?

    Am I willing to tolerate punishment of some sort if I don't want Islam to be my religions?

    The answer is no, and these are only a few things that would receive strenuous objection from me.

    There are some who feel that adoption of a modified version of these things is a good idea. Here's one example: The Debauchery of American Womanhood

    The quote at the top of this post came from this site.

    Mal

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    March 15, 2005 - 05:47 am
    "The burka and the bikini represent two extremes. The answer lies somewhere in the middle.

    Mal, this is the key. Extremes are never an answer to anything. It is always the middle ground that wins in the end and that applies to diplomacy as well, not just morals. Muslims have a point in my opinion, but to go to the other extreme in keeping women hidden is blatant violence. I wonder how a woman who is treated that way can TEACH her children to become well adjusted adults if she is constantly put down by males in that society.

    Re your quote "Islam Pro". I think it is blatantly one-sided.

    Scrawler
    March 15, 2005 - 09:08 am
    In general, nineteenth-century America saw woman as biologically radically different from man, smaller and weaker, but it laid special emphasis on her nervous system. It was at once more dominant and more prone to dysfunction. In social terms, women seemed more emotional and less rational. Males focused obsessively on female sexuality, seeing the woman's reproductive system in control of her physical (and social) destiny. Thus sexuality was the underlying key to woman's health, and her nervous system was at best in delicate balance.

    Persian
    March 15, 2005 - 09:42 am
    May I suggest that as we discuss the hindrances that conservative cultures impose on women, we also keep in mind that there are Muslimas around the world who are highly educated, lead professionally rigorous lives, are distinguished in their chosen fields, travel, speak publicly around various issues and at the same time marry, bear children and raise them to meet the challenges of our contemporary world.

    Certainly, the rural women in the more conservative Islamic areas of the world (here I am thinking of Afghanistan) or members of the lower class in Saudi Arabia do not enjoy the lifestyle I've described above. But my point is that NOT all Muslimas are forced into a lifestyle that a Western woman would absolutely not accept. Muslimas who are professors, attorneys, engineers, medical doctors, scientists and diplomats work diligently in their professional fields, while maintaining their public modesty.

    My comments are not intended in any way to bypass the atrocities inflicted on some Muslimas around the world by the cultural traditions in which they live. Yet I remember also that there are too many Western women (who have never worn a burqa or heard of Islam or the Qur'an) - especially in the USA - who are abused, belittled, downtrodden and made to feel less than human. Thus, I tend to think in terms of this type of behavior towards women as gender related or cultural, rather than from a religious (Islamic) standpoint.

    Bubble
    March 15, 2005 - 09:59 am
    There is much discrimination in the Western world against women and serious abuse as well. It probably is not as overt as what is seen in Muslem countries. For some reason the unseemly behavior is often minimized as the doings of deranged people or uneducated individuals. Criticizing other cultures in far away places is done with more freedom.

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 15, 2005 - 11:48 am

    Yes, BUBBLE. The man who wrote the "Debauchery of American Women" article I posted is a Canadian.

    This morning ROBBY asked some questions:
    "As we look at the Muslim Moors of that time and the lack of enlightenment of the Christians in Europe, I ask myself what right we have to look down at Islam of today. Are we just in the temporary 'upcycle' and are destined to see our so-called 'knowledge' taken over by the Islamic civilization and improved?
    In my Post #350 I was answering them as a woman who has lived all of her life in what has been, up until now, one of the most free nations of them all. If my country was taken over by the Islamic civilization, I do not believe it would be improved, and I listed some of the reasons why I believe this.

    I quickly add here that I would not consider it an improvement if my country was taken over by fundamentalist Christian evangelists who ruled by their interpretation of the Christian Bible and instigated governmental rule according to the laws in that Bible.

    Through research I've done for the past several years, I am as well aware that there are women who live and succeed in various arenas of business and education under Islamic law as I am aware of discrimination against women in Western societies. I fought that discimination when I was a young girl; after I was married, and later when I was out on my own in a man's world where it was doubly hard to get beyond minimum wage status if you were not only female but handicapped. I continue to fight for women's rights and the rights of all American people according to the Bill of Rights in the U.S. Constitution, from a wheelchair within the confines of this room where I live, to this day.

    I repeat my stand. I do not think the people of my country and my descendents would see their lives improved if this nation were to be taken over by the Islamic civilization.

    Mal

    moxiect
    March 15, 2005 - 01:21 pm


    I am not an individual who has traveled to all parts of the world! I am what is called an "arm chair traveler". I have burning to learn about all cultures that I can.

    I could NOT livein a glass house. While attending a local community college I met some young men and women from IRAN. One thing that struck me very hard is that their behavior here would reflect on those at home in Iran. They were being watched by whom I don't know. Some may have returned to Iran and I fear for them because it was the time when Iran took US hostages. These young men and women were very intelligent and loads of fun to be with. I sure wish I knew what happened to most of them.

    Some did not want to return to wearing the burqa never mind living in a country where they had to "watch" what they said about lives.

    If I sound a bit confusing it's because I just don't know how to put it any clearer.

    winsum
    March 15, 2005 - 02:25 pm
    the lower position of women is prevelant globally not only in most if not all cultures but in the animal world as well. where there are ALPHA animals (or leaders) they are male, although I've heard of old females being alpha in wolf packs. It seems to be hard wired in men to assume dominance over women and some women are equally hard wired to submit.

    In order to assume equal rights women in general will have to take on the mantle of the warrior and fight for them. there is no natural assumption of equality with men in nature. . . . Claire

    3kings
    March 15, 2005 - 03:15 pm
    In our fairly recent past ( the Victorian era) women began making their first forays into paid employment. Up until then, those who received payment, mostly for work outside the home, were inevitably male.

    Then it was realized that a whole army of females was available to work as domestic servants, child carers, or nurses. Women began to appear in certain designated workplaces, and in increasing numbers.

    With the twentieth Century, women worked in places which had been considered men's domain, and not just working for wages, but in the professions also. When I began my own employment, the more managerial positions were reserved for men, by the time I retired, all places were open to both sexes.

    Here in the West, this change has been greeted with a measure of antagonism by males, but in the Middle East, such antagonism has reached ridiculous heights.

    It is sometimes claimed this difference in behaviour is caused by religious attitudes or cultural ones, but at the back of my mind, I speculate that it my be due to the economic strength of the regions. When markets become strong enough to create, by demand, employment for all persons, male or female, then women are readily accepted in the work-a-day world.

    If the economy turns down, then once again antagonism between male and female begins to grow, and attempts are made to exclude women from paid employment.

    And in such situations, in times of economic distress, it is the flagpole of Religion that the masses begin to rally around. ++ Trevor

    Justin
    March 15, 2005 - 04:03 pm
    Mahlia; Cultural and religious influences are not separate entities. They are interrelated forces that determine social responses. You can tell me that abuse of women is related to the difference in gender and I will accept that but you must also accept that the Bible and the Qur'an contribute greatly to the abuse of women in society. Religion must not be let off the hook. It is guilty and the sooner that part of the problem is recognized the better for women.We can make laws to control cultural influences but religion enters the arena wearing a white hat and horns.It poses as the good guy. (vis a vis the gay marriage issue in the US.)

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 15, 2005 - 05:38 pm
    Is RELIGION a subset of CULTURE?

    Robby

    Fifi le Beau
    March 15, 2005 - 09:31 pm
    "It was Islam which eradicated idolatry, man-worship, and polytheism in all its forms, and created a firm faith in the Unity of God. It was Islam which showed the path of spiritual evolution, moral emancipation, and attainment of salvation through active participation in the practical affairs of the world in which we live."

    Everything we have read about Islam here and all the links and all the books read on this subject puts this muslim writer in the position of being a liar and a propagandist.

    Islam did not eradicate idolatry, it took it's pagan idols and added them to their worship. They were rock worshipers, and they are still rock worshipers when you consider their command to make the hajj to Saudi Arabia and worship at the kaa'ba and the black stone embedded inside. These are the same rocks they were worshiping before Islam.

    As for forsaking man worship, they didn't do that either. They put Mohammed right up there in the first sentence of their worship along side their god. He was worshiped in his day, and people even collected his spit, fingernail clippings, and hair. He inserted himself right there with their god Allah, which was the name of one of the rock gods. They say 'there is no god but Allah'. They do not say 'there is no god but god'. That is not monotheism.

    Mohammed took his ideas of religion from Judaism and Christianity. He saw himself as a messiah, and they saw him as something else. In order to win over his old comrades from Mecca he incorporated their rock gods into his new religion. The pilgrims coming to worship at the black stone kaa'ba provided Mecca with money and trade and they were not about to give up that lucrative business for Mohammed's new dreams of being the messiah. Mohammed agreed and the rock worship continues to this day.

    As for moral emancipation......would anyone call the rape of a child and the wanton murder of helpless men, women, and children, the robbery and thieving from their fellow Arabs and anyone else who wandered by moral? All this by the founder of Islam, no less. Instead of emancipation they set a series of laws and customs into force that keeps them in the stone age.

    Pun intended.

    Fifi

    Justin
    March 15, 2005 - 09:31 pm
    Yes, Robby, religion is a subset of culture. We should not have suggested otherwise.

    Mahlia: If I read your last post and previous posts correctly you seem to be saying that something in the culture other than religion is at fault for abuse of women. You point to gender differences. I accept that. Women may be smarter than men in many ways and that may make men, who are physically larger, more uncertain of their power to prevail. However, the Bible, both NT and OT, as well as the Qur'an direct men to suppress women. When policemen are able to say to an abuser," I don't care what your God tells you to do. You may not abuse your wife. If you do I will arrest and jail you for as long as it takes you to get the message."

    Fifi le Beau
    March 15, 2005 - 10:09 pm
    Trying to pawn off culture as the reason for violence against women in Islam is hogwash. "Women and the Koran" by Anwar Hekmat disputes the culture excuse, and he says the Koran and its messenger is to blame for the status of women in Islam. He should know, he grew up surrounded by and in Islam.

    Here is a brief review of his book.

    Women and the Koran

    Fifi

    winsum
    March 15, 2005 - 10:14 pm
    a friend of mine said this to me and I concurr.



    "I noticed the posts in Durant more or less justified the Muslim mistreatment of women by indicating that women are badly treated in the west. Nobody seems to have noticed that western mistreatment is indicated as good general policy only by some reactionary groups or male psychopaths while the Muslim anti-women policy is accepted as approved social and religious doctrine. There is a very large difference there."


    Jan

    Claire

    Justin
    March 15, 2005 - 10:19 pm
    Fifi: Your latest post expresses a view of Islam that is realistic. The same realism when applied to Christianity produces a similar picture.

    Mahlia: One can not deny that individual Muslims and Muslimas may on occasion make worthwhile contributions to society but it occurs to me that these achievements are made in spite of Islam and the directions of the Qur'an. If there are women-Muslimas- who are able because of their husbands good will, to achieve a more fulfilling life, that's nice but these same women ought to recognize that there are thousands of other intelligent women whose husbands will not, under Islam, permit them to achieve full potential.

    Where are the Muslims to refute these observations? Is there something about the Qur'an or about the daily practice of Islam we do not understand?. Those Muslims, whose work has been introduced into this conversation, have been found wanting. There must be a Muslim who will deal rationally and honestly and openly with these criticisms.

    Justin
    March 15, 2005 - 10:23 pm
    Claire; Tell Jan that is exactly the issue we are dealing with at this moment.

    winsum
    March 15, 2005 - 10:26 pm
    He's lurking I'm sure he just saw your post. now it's Mals turn. . . . claire

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 16, 2005 - 12:16 am
    Well, CLAIRE, you could have fooled me. I didn't know anybody in this discussion was standing around waiting for a turn. I wouldn't be here now if I didn't have this recurring abdominal pain that wakes me up and makes me run for the bathroom first and then the Tylenol bottle.
    "When those with reservations about Islamic ways cannot acceptably broach their thoughts, they sometimes abandon the constraints of polite society altogether so as to let loose with their uncensored views."
    The above quote came from the article FIFI posted about Women and the Koran: The Status of Women in Islam by Anwar Hekmat. I talked about censorship and being hogtied by political correctness in my Post #318.

    JAN said abusive treatment of women in Islam has been justified in this discussion by participants saying women are abused in the west. If my posts yesterday came out that way to anyone who read them, it was poor writing on my part because I think the exact opposite. What I neglected to say was that if I do fight for the rights of women and American people, my head is not chopped off in my country for doing it.

    FIFI, I'm glad you talked about the bunch of lies in the Pro Islam quote I posted. As I read that article, I thought of the courageous way you have posted in this discussion about Islam and comments you've made about other religions.

    Culture? Religion? What difference does it make if people are badly abused and often killed for speaking their minds and object to laws that are in the holy books that have such an influence on our lives?

    Mal

    Jan Sand
    March 16, 2005 - 12:44 am
    Mal

    I take your statement as an invitation to return to the group. Please correct me if I am wrong. In our last exchange you stated that you would leave the group if I participated and that was very much not what I desired as I consider your industrious pursuit and presentation of peripheral material far more valuable to the group than anything I could contribute.

    I have not been nor am I in open conflict with anything you have said, merely pointed out what seems to me the neglect of a particular point of view.

    I have had experience with other groups that have become disturbed by my presentation of my viewpoints and have no desire to roil the peace of useful discussions. I find the group and the subject matter interesting and do not intend to moderate any of my viewpoints to satisfy an opposing point of view. And I have no intention of dealing in personalities. If this is acceptable I will comment when it seems to me to be useful and worthwhile.

    Jan Sand

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 16, 2005 - 01:06 am

    JAN, I have no authority or business or intention to try to keep anyone, besides myself, out of any discussion. The choice to participate in them is yours and yours alone.



    JUSTIN, you asked what I meant when I said "mistakenly called Christianity." It seems to me that what's called Christianity and Christian today has gone far afield from what Jesus preached. He was a peaceful man who tried to help people get along with each other. I see him as humble with no exaltation of himself or any other human being to a godlike status. If he referred to himself as the son of God, he meant that all of us are the children of God..

    Maybe people don't like peacemakers. After all, there's nothing material to gain with peace. There are no "Spoils of Peace."

    Too many of today's versions of Christianity are a threat and dangerous. Jesus probably wouldn't recognize them.

    Non-violence, peace, a benevolent god. Martin Luther King knew what Jesus's Christianity was.

    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 16, 2005 - 01:30 am

    Before I go (and leave you in peace), I have to say one more thing.

    In the late 80's I went to a New Age church to see if there was anything there for me. When the minister told the congregation to follow the teachings of Louis L'Amour, I walked out and never went back.

    Today I think, well, why not? Louis L'Amour was as good a prophet as any, wasn't he?

    Mal

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 16, 2005 - 02:44 am
    Now -now, children. Shall we get back to paying attention to the curriculum? If you don't act nice, your friendly facilitator will go sulk in the corner and you can all tell your parents that I feel I am not paid enough for this dirty job. Why do I find reverberating in my mind that old ditty which says:-"Sticks and stone may break my bones but names will never hurt me?"

    Jan, you said you were returning to this group. To be honest, I didn't know you had left. At various times each of us is absent for a short time to attend to other things in our life. As for invitations, they don't exist in this forum after the initial invitation. Participants post or do not depending on their deep interest in the items described above in the Heading.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 16, 2005 - 02:47 am
    Unless memory fails me, we are now in Moorish Spain. I am interested in reactions to Durant's latest post.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 16, 2005 - 03:12 am
    This ARTICLE is not about Islam but is about Religion so is apropos to this Durant volume entitled "The Age of Faith." As usual, we do not comment on the beliefs of other participants nor do we proselytize our own faith.

    Reactions to Durant's remarks about Moorish Spain are still welcome.

    Robby

    tooki
    March 16, 2005 - 04:45 am
    Although I am a Darwinian and more or less support the idea of a “God Module,” or “God Gene,” it’s not a large part of my genetic makeup. Neither do I have a genetic interest in eating and food.

    Thus, I am a skinny atheist, not very interested in discussing either recipes or Gods, just enough to keep body and soul alive. I am, however, very interested in learning about and discussing the strange, wondrous, and astonishing things mankind does. The invention of feudalism was one of these marvelous inventions. Durant talks about the “forces making for feudalism in Spain” on page 298, which is where we were before the astonishing digression.

    Feudalism is unlike other “isms,” such as communism, fascism, socialism, capitalism, all of which denote some kind of invented government. Feudalism is a recent concept, introduced about 1839 to allow discussion of history during the Middle Ages. It wasn’t as though folks went out and said, “Guess I’ll embrace Feudalism, be a serf, although I’d rather be a noble.” (The way folks seem to embrace religion.)

    One force making for feudalism all over Europe during the 6th through 11th centuries was political fragmentation. Power shifts caused the large estates to be broken up and the land redistributed. Feudalism (from fief?) is based on a series of obligations. The surf to the owner, the owner to the ruler. In return for this land, the owner was required to be at the ruler’s beck and call for army service. That’s how such large forces could be mobilized for the Crusades.

    And here it is a beginning in Moorish Spain. The rise of feudalism is my best choice for the cyclic view of history.

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    March 16, 2005 - 05:06 am
    Robby you asked: "Is RELIGION a subset of CULTURE?" Yes.

    Culture to me is what children learn, including religion or beliefs, in which language, traditions in which neighborhood in a certain city, a certain country situated in certain part of the world. All that is culture.

    As much as I would like to deeply understand people of another culture, I will never deeply be converted to their way of life. I can tolerate, love, marry, live among them and practice their beliefs, but what was implanted in me as a child, I will never be able to eradicate entirely.

    The proof that religion is deeply ingrained in each one of us is how much interest the Age of Faith raises in this discussion. If religion had not marked us, no one would be interested in talking about it.

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 16, 2005 - 07:12 am
    "Now -now, children."

    "the astonishing digression."

    That makes me mad. If you don't want expansion into related subjects, don't post provocative questions like the one in Post # 347.
    "The proof that religion is deeply ingrained in each one of us is how much interest the Age of Faith raises in this discussion. If religion had not marked us, no one would be interested in talking about it."
    The mark religion left on me as a child was being forced to go to Sunday School once a week. Then I had to go home and wait until after 2 p.m. for Sunday dinner. By that time I had a fierce headache. What church and Sunday meant to me growing up was headaches and feeling sick. That ordeal over with, there wasn't any talk about religion in the house where I lived for the rest of the week.

    Durant has talked about various religions since this discussion began. Discussing them is one of the ways to understand history and the sometimes terrible effect religion has had on the psyches and behavior of people.

    It is not just the seeds of feudalism that are planted in Moorish Spain. We are headed toward the Spanish Inquisition. It is documented that 3000 to 5000 people died during the Inquisition's 350 year history. At the same time, there were 150,000 documented witch burnings elsewhere in Europe over the same centuries. It was a truly dark time in western history.

    Mal

    Bubble
    March 16, 2005 - 09:25 am
    Jpost

    THE JERUSALEM POST online edition

    Accommodating Islam

    Daniel Pipes, THE JERUSALEM POST Mar. 15, 2005

    Throughout the West, Muslims are making new and assertive demands, and in some cases challenging the very premises of European and North American life. How to respond?

    Here is a general rule: Offer full rights – but turn down demands for special privileges.

    By way of example, note two current Canadian controversies. The first concerns the establishment of voluntary Shari'a (Islamic law) courts in Ontario. This idea is promoted by the usual Islamist groups, such as the Council on American-Islamic Relations-Canada and the Canadian Islamic Congress. It is most prominently opposed by Muslim women's groups, led by Homa Arjomand, who fear that the Islamic courts, despite their voluntary nature, will be used to repress women's rights.

    I oppose any role for the Shari'a, a medieval law, in public life today, but so long as women are truly not coerced (create an ombudsman to ensure this?) and Islamic rulings remain subordinate to Canada's Charter of Rights and Freedoms, I see no grounds on which to deny Muslims the right, like other Canadians, to revert to private arbitration.

    On the other hand, Muslim demands for an exclusive prayer room at McGill University in Montreal are outrageous and unacceptable. As a secular institution, the university on principle does not provide any religious group with a permanent place of worship on campus. Despite this universal policy, the Muslim Student Association, a part of the Wahhabi lobby, insists on just such a place, even threatening a human rights abuse filing if it is defied. McGill must stand firm.

    The key distinction is whether Muslim aspirations fit into an existing framework or not. Where they do, they can be accommodated, such as in the case of:

    schools and universities closing for the Eid al-Adha holidays;

    male employees permitted to wear beards in New Jersey;

    the founding of an Islamic cemetery in Tennessee. Adherents of other minority religions may get a holiday off, wear beards, or dispose of their dead in private burial grounds – so why not Muslims?

    In contrast, special privileges for Islam and Muslims are unacceptable, such as:

    setting up a government advisory board uniquely for Muslims in the United States;

    permitting Muslim-only living quarters or events in the US and Great Britain;

    setting aside women-only bathing at a municipal swimming pool in France;

    banning Hindus and Jews from a jury hearing a case about an Islamist in Great Britain;

    changing noise laws to broadcast the call to prayer in Hamtramck, Michigan;

    allowing a prisoner the unheard-of right to avoid strip-searches in New York State;

    exploiting taxpayer-funded schools and airwaves to convert non-Muslims in the US;

    allowing students in taxpayer-funded schools to use empty classrooms for prayers in New Jersey;

    deeming the "religious vilification" of Islam to be illegal in Australia;

    punishing anti-Islamic views with court-mandated indoctrination by an Islamist in Canada;

    prohibiting families from sending pork or pork by-products to US soldiers serving in Iraq;

    requiring that female American soldiers in Saudi Arabia wear US government-issued abayas.

    applying the "Rushdie rules" – or letting Muslims shut down criticism of Islam and Muslims.

    The dividing line in each instance is whether Muslims accept to fit the existing order or aspire to remake it. Working within the system is fine, taking it over is not. In US terms, Muslims must accept the framework of the Constitution, not overturn it.

    This approach implies that Muslim demands must be judged against prior actions and current practice, and not in the abstract. Context is all-important. It is thus fine for the Alsace regional council in France to help fund the Grand Mosque of Strasbourg, because the same body also helped pay for renovations to the Strasbourg Cathedral and the city's Grand Synagogue. It is quite another when the City of Boston, Massachusetts, sells land for an Islamic complex at well below the market price, a benefit unheard of for other religious groups in that city.

    Western governments and other institutions urgently need to signal Muslims that they must accept being just one religious group of many, and that aspirations to dominate will fail. Toward this end, governments need to enact principled and consistent policies indicating precisely which Muslim privileges are acceptable, and why.

    The writer is director of the Middle East Forum. www.DanielPipes.org

    JoanK
    March 16, 2005 - 11:17 am
    It sounds like he is right on. There seem to be two issues here. First, that Muslims should be granted the same kind of privileges granted to other religious groups, but not granted special treatment not granted to other religious groups.

    The second is that there are certain basic individual rights embodied in our constitution, and religious laws do not take precedence over them.

    This makes the issue sound simple, and of course it's not.

    winsum
    March 16, 2005 - 01:01 pm
    I found myself skipping and dropping out throughout the discussion of the age of faith because I don't have one and am just not interested in the history connected to it. I'd rather study history through the arts than the wars and politics connected to them. I am interested in the current machinations of the Muslims to have everything their way. That infringes on the area of our human rights and the separation in the USA of religion from government and is very important to me. . . . Claire

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 16, 2005 - 03:19 pm
    "I found myself skipping and dropping out throughout the discussion of the age of faith because I don't have one."

    I am not following that logic, Claire. I don't have diabetes but I am perfectly willing to discuss that or many many other topics ad infinitum. The title of this fourth volume is "The Age of Faith" and that is what we will be discussing for hundreds of pages more.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 16, 2005 - 03:40 pm
    "The mines of Spain enriched the Moors with gold, silver, tin, copper, iron, lead, alum, sulphur, mercury.

    "Coral was gathered along Andalusia's shores.

    "Pearls were fished along the Catalonian coasts.

    "Rubies were mined at Baja and Malaga.

    "Metallurgy was well developed. Murcia was famous for its iron and brass works. Toledo fir its swords, Cordova for shields.

    "Handicraft industry flourished. Cordova made 'Cordovan' leather for the 'cordwainers' (cordobanes) of Europe. There were 13,000 weavers in Cordova alone. Moorish carpets, cushions, silk curtains, shawls, divans found eager buyers everywhere.

    "According to al-Maqqari, Ibn Firnas of Cordova, in the ninth century, invented spectacles, complex chronometers, and a flying machine. A merchant fleet of over a thousand ships carried the products of Spain to Africa and Asia. Vessels from a hundred ports crowded the harbors of Barcelona, Almeria, Cartagena, Valencia, Malaga, Cadiz, and Seville. A regular postal service was maintained for the government.

    "The official coinage of gold dinars, silver dirhema, and copper fals preserved a relative stability in comparison with the currencies of contemporary Latin Christendom.

    "But these Moorish coins, too, gradually deteriorated in weight, purity, and purchasing power."

    Sounds like an enlightened culture to me.

    Robby

    Justin
    March 16, 2005 - 04:20 pm
    Christians have been unsuccessfully chipping away at our constitution since its adoption so we have had some experience with religions that try to make their laws our laws. Sharia is as foreign to our legal system as are the ten commandments. If we don't toss the religious monuments from our law courts, it will not be long before Muslims ask for equal space to place a Sharia monument. Then we will be forced to toss from the court house grounds two monuments. Religious advocates should be required to take a civics class every few years to ensure they know the qualities of the system they tamper with.

    Justin
    March 16, 2005 - 04:39 pm
    Ms. Smith had just completed a drug recovery program under Christian auspices leaving her with the cult language and the techniques of recovery that she was able to employ successfully in dealing with a man in desperate straights. She deserves the credit for the work she did. Not God. The professional religious people who are trying to assign her work to someone else should be ashamed of themselves.

    Justin
    March 16, 2005 - 05:03 pm
    I agree, Mal there is a substantial difference between Jesus and Christianity. Jesus the man would probably not join any of the Christian churches extant today. However, we often tend to assign attributes to Jesus he did not possess. He was for example not a peaceful man nor did he have much concern for the duties and responsibilites of married men. His actions in the Temple were not those of a peaceful man and when he said leave home and hearth and come and follow me he intended his deciples to give up fishing etc and to work in his cause which was disseminating the warnings of John the Baptist. There are some good things that we do not often ascribe to Jesus but should. He was good to women, especially,those in trouble with society. Christianity condemns prostitutes and adulterers. Jesus loved such women and raised one to his inner circle. He appeared to the Magdallen before any of the others.

    Fifi le Beau
    March 16, 2005 - 07:15 pm
    Robby says, "Sounds like an enlightened culture to me."

    The Moors (Berbers) have just arrived and what Durant is listing as the country's resources and advanced culture is already there, so are you speaking of the Spanish culture as enlightened? The Moors confiscated property and put serfs on it to do the work, and sat back and collected taxes. What Durant has described for the most part in these first posts on Spain, is Spanish culture, not Moorish (Berber) culture.

    Durant warns the reader a couple of posts back that the judgment of his source's enthusiasm for this section 'may require some discount of his praise'. I take Durant at his word since he was writing most of this book while World War 11 was raging, and he used the work of some Christian Orientalist as his source, and it has been my experience there is no one worse for exaggerated excess, than an Orientalist.

    From Durant on Spain..........

    Laws were rational and humane and were administered by a well-organized judiciary. For the most part the conquered, in their internal affairs, were governed by their own laws and their own officials. Towns were well policed. Markets, weights and measures were effectively supervised. A regular census recorded population and property.

    The revenues of the Cordovan caliphate under Abd-er-Rahman III reached 12,045,000 gold dinars ($57,213,750) --

    "But these receipts were due not so much to high taxes as to well-governed and progressive agriculture, industry, and trade."


    That well governed and progressive agriculture, industry, and trade was already there when the Berbers arrived, and as Durant says the Spanish ran their own affairs for the most part. The main contribution of the Berbers was as conquerors and tax collectors to enrich themselves as all conquerors do, build monuments to themselves and their own gods.

    Fifi

    winsum
    March 16, 2005 - 07:49 pm
    robby because I consider all religion and the idea of god as a disgusting habit. I was trying to be tactful. . . claire

    Justin
    March 16, 2005 - 07:59 pm
    Isn't it strange that Moors would develop an industry such as wine making when they were forbidden by their religion to drink the beverage..

    Fifi le Beau
    March 16, 2005 - 08:42 pm
    Spain had been making wine a thousand years or so when the Moors arrived. The Moors however did have a taste for wine and drank it in abundance evidently, and contributed to the distillation process they liked it so well.

    Spain and wine

    Fifi

    Justin
    March 16, 2005 - 10:26 pm
    Certainly the mines were in operation long before the arrival of the Berbers. It seems to me the Roman Mark Antony looted the output of the Spanish mines before the turn of the millennium.The role of the Berbers also may be one of conqueror looter. Is Durant carried away here because of poor sources?I wonder that he included this material when surely he was aware of the history of the mining industry in Spain.

    DanielDe
    March 16, 2005 - 11:48 pm
    Hello everyone! It’s been quite some time since I last posted some comments. I have been quite busy with different projects. I have now changed orientation and I work as an independent. It doesn’t mean that I have more time but I am a bit more flexible.

    SeniorNet has changed its appearance for a "dressier" and "fancier" look. Wow! I am happy to see familiar names again. For those who see my name for the first time, I am Eloïse’s son.

    The name of Augustine needs to be underlined here. We should remember that his major contribution to the political construction of Europe was his book "The City of God", finished in 427 AD, which can still be bought today. He wrote that book as a response to the attacks on Christians. They were being blamed for the sack of Rome that took place some years earlier, supposedly because the Romans had ceased to worship the other gods (Mars, Jupiter and the like). These gods then apparently decided to punish them.

    So Augustine laid down the foundation of a Biblical Christian Worldview that showed how a society should be structured in order to walk in partnership with the Creator. He showed that if Rome became the empire that it was, it was certainly not because of those gods. His demonstration that those gods are incapable of such a feat is totally convincing. He also shows on what basis the partnership with God can continue.

    Rome fell after Augustine’s death in 430. His thesis from then onward established the dominant worldview that organized Europe for nearly 1’000 years. It provided a solid motivation for opposing Islamic military spouts to invade Europe. If not for Augustine, Europe could have been Islamic rather than judeo-christian.

    Now that says something about why we should be wearied of Islamic efforts to make converts in free western societies. We need to look at how they govern the countries where they are the established rulers, to know how they would behave if they ever became a majority in a western country.

    The historical dimension of the role that religion plays in organizing society is important to take into consideration; also, how history builds a society up to nowadays and how it behaves on account of that history.

    I was once startled to read in the introduction of a book on the French Constitution that the freedom that the people of France know today is founded on judeo-christian values. Those are the ones that come down from Augustine. Daniel

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 17, 2005 - 02:20 am
    Welcome back, Daniel! Your post is most thought-provoking. We are currently in Moorish Spain and not too long from now will be discussing the next section, "The Grandeur and Decline of Islam."

    Are you currently visiting in Canada or are you posting from Switzerland?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 17, 2005 - 02:33 am
    Here is a TOPIC which seems to unite Jews, Christian and Muslims. Of course in this case they are united against something. I am wondering if it is possible for these three major religions to unite for something.

    Robby

    Bubble
    March 17, 2005 - 03:02 am
    I did not see that the "united against" made that much noise here,nor is the majority much concerned. Of course the ultra religious would be very vocal.

    What made more noise and annoyed a lot of people is the demonstrations this week of the very orthodox against dismantling the settlements across the green line, that is where lots of Americans joined the march and shouted in support while announcing that many plane loads of Americans would come especially for the next demonstration! They don't even live here.

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 17, 2005 - 03:20 am
    Durant continues about Moorish Spain.

    "The desperate faith of the indigent gave a subtle power to the faqihs or theologians of the law.

    "Innovations in creed or morals were so abhorred by the population that heresy and speculation usually hid their heads in obscurity of place or speech. Philosophy was silenced or professed the most respectable conclusions. Apostasy from Islam was punishable with death.

    "Cordovan caliphs themselves were often men of liberal views but they suspected the Egyptian Fatimid caliphs of using wandering scholars as spies and occasionally they joined the faqihs in persecuting independent thought.

    "On the other hand the Moorish authorities gave freedom of worship to all non-Moslem faiths. The Jews, harshly hounded by the Visigoths, had helped the Moslem conqust of Spain. They lived now -- until the twelfth century -- in peace with the conquerors, developed wealth and learning, and sometimes rose to high place in the government.

    "Christians faced greater obstacles to political preferment but many succeeded nevertheless. Christian males, like all males, were subject to compulsory circumcision as a measure of national hygiene. Otherwise they were ruled by their own Visigothic-Roman law, administered by magistrates of their own choosing.

    "In return for exemption from military service free and able Christian males paid a land tax, normally forty-eight dirhems ($24.00) per year for the rich, twenty-four for the middle classes, twelve for manual workers. Christians and Moslems intermarried freely. Now and then they joined in celebrating a Christian or Moslem holyday or used the same building as church and mosque.

    "Some Christians, conforming to the custom of the country, established harems, or practiced pederasty. Clerics and laymen from Christian Europe came in safety and freedom to Cordova, Toledo, or Seville as students, visitors, or travelers.

    "We may judge the attractiveness of Islam to Christians from a letter of 1311, which gives the Mohammedan population of Granada at the time as 200,000, of whom all but 500 were descendants of Christians converted to Islam.

    "Christians frequently expressed their preference of Moslem to Christian rule."

    Peace and harmony reigned?

    Robby

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    March 17, 2005 - 05:20 am
    Bonjour Daniel, it is nice to see you this morning.

    Robby, Daniel is not in Montreal right now, he is posting from his home computer.

    tooki
    March 17, 2005 - 06:06 am
    As Durant notes in passing, the years of Moorish domination of Spain produced the “Arab” horse, a mixture of Spanish strains bred with Berber strains, still highly prized all over the world. These beautiful, strong and swift, and white, horses played important roles in history

    One big role was in the development of the mighty armored tank of medieval warfare. The sight of a heavily armored knight on his armored white Arab struck fear into the hearts of enemies. Remember the grand painting of “St. George and the Dragon,” and Velázquez painted a magnificent “Queen Isabella on a Horse.”

    There’s much history here. But, equally interesting is the role of “Arabs” in the development of American Plains Indian cultures. When the Spanish bullies, Cortez, Desoto, etc, invaded Mexico they brought with them their great Arab steeds. Some of these horses escaped or were captured. The horse is not native to America, and the Plains Indians took to them immediately, embarking on their own breeding programs, and cultural change immediately began. Only American Indians and Mongols were so one with their mounts that they could shoot an arrow back over their shoulders while at a full gallop.

    Here is a link discussing some of the history of Arab horses in Europe. The Arab Horse in Europe

    Scrawler
    March 17, 2005 - 09:38 am
    Why do you think "Peace and Harmony" reigned? Why does peace and harmony reign at any time. Perhaps it is because one side gives into the other. What is the old saying? When in Rome do as the Romans do! Is this the way to get peace and harmony? What did the Moors offer the Christians that made them want peace and harmony?

    moxiect
    March 17, 2005 - 10:10 am


    Scrawler

    The Moors offered the Christians their life.

    winsum
    March 17, 2005 - 10:27 am
    I enjoyed the history of the Arabian horse now as for peace and harmony. . .

    "Peace and Harmony"?? reminds me of Nazi Germany during hitlers time in power.

    "Philosophy was silenced or professed the most respectable conclusions. Apostasy from Islam was punishable with death."___________and "wandering scholars suspected of being used as spies"

    Claire

    Jan Sand
    March 17, 2005 - 10:47 am
    I don't know if an Arabian horse was bred for knights but I do know that the massive Percheron was bred for carrying all that weight that a knight must wear in battle.

    See http://www.imh.org/imh/bw/perch.html

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 17, 2005 - 12:08 pm
    "Way back during the eighth century, Europe was still knee-deep in the Medieval period. That's not the only thing they were knee-deep in. In his book, The Day The Universe Changed, the historian James Burke describes how the typical European townspeople lived:
    "The inhabitants threw all their refuse into the drains in the center of the narrow streets. The stench must have been overwhelming, though it appears to have gone virtually unnoticed. Mixed with excrement and urine would be the soiled reeds and straw used to cover the dirt floors.
    "This squalid society was organized under a feudal system and had little that would resemble a commercial economy. Along with other restrictions, the Catholic Church forbade the lending of money - which didn't help get things booming much. 'Anti-Semitism, previously rare, began to increase. Money lending, which was forbidden by the Church, was permitted under Jewish law.' (Burke, 1985, p. 32) Jews worked to develop a currency although they were heavily persecuted for it. Medieval Europe was a miserable lot, which ran high in illiteracy, superstition, barbarism and filth.

    "During this same time, Arabs entered Europe from the South. ABD AL-RAHMAN I, a survivor of a family of caliphs of the Arab empire, reached Spain in the mid-700's. He became the first Caliph of Al-Andalus, the Moorish part of Spain, which occupied most of the Iberian Peninsula. He also set up the UMAYYAD Dynasty that ruled Al-Andalus for over three-hundred years. (Grolier, History of Spain). Al Andalus means, "the land of the vandals," from which comes the modern name Andalusia.


    "At first, the land resembled the rest of Europe in all its squalor. But within two-hundred years the Moors had turned Al-Andalus into a bastion of culture, commerce and beauty. "Irrigation systems imported from Syria and Arabia turned the dry plains... into an agricultural cornucopia. Olives and wheat had always grown there. The Arabs added pomegranates, oranges, lemons, aubergines, artichokes, cumin, coriander, bananas, almonds, pams, henna, woad, madder, saffron, sugar-cane, cotton, rice, figs, grapes, peaches, apricots and rice."

    "By the beginning of the ninth century, Moorish Spain was the gem of Europe with its capital city, Cordova. With the establishment of Abdurrahman III - 'The great caliphate of Cordova' - came the golden age of Al-Andalus. Cordova, in southern Spain, was the intellectual center of Europe.

    Source:

    Muslim Spain and European Culture

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 17, 2005 - 02:32 pm
    Marvelous posts, folks! Makes those of us of the Western culture wonder if we are not being just a little bit vain as to our own accomplishments.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 17, 2005 - 02:51 pm
    "But there was another side to the picture and it darkened with time.

    "Although Christians were free, the Church was not. Most of her landed property had been confiscated by a decree affecting all active resisters to the conquest. Many churches had been destroyed and new ones were prohibited.

    "The Moslem emirs inherited from the Visigoth kings the right to appoint and depose bishops even to summon ecclesiastical councils. The emirs sold bishoprics to the highest bidder although he might be a skeptic or a libertine. Christian priests were liable to abuse by Moslems in the streets.

    "Moslem theologians commenteed freely on what seemed to them absurdities in Christian theology but it was dangerous for Christians to reply in kind.

    "Under such tense relations a minor incident could lead to a major tragedy.

    "A pretty girl of Cordova, known to us only as Flora, was the child of a mixed marriage. When her Mohammedan father died she resolved to become a Christian. She fled from her brother's guardianship to a Christian home, was caught and beaten by him, persisted in apostasy, and was turned over to a Moslem court.

    "The qadi, who might have condemned her to death, ordered her flogged. She escaped again to a Christian home and there met a young priest, Eulogius, who conceived for her a passionate spiritual attachment.

    "While she hid in a convent another priest, Perfectus, achieved martyrdom by telling some Moslems what he thought of Mohammed. They had promised not to betray him but the vigor of his exposition so shocked them that they denounced him to the authorities. Perfectus might have saved himself by a retraction. Instead he repeated to the judge his conviction that Mohammed was 'the servant of Satan.' The judge remanded him to jail for some months, hoping for a change of mood. None came and Perfectus was condemned to death. He marched to the scaffold cursing the Prophet as 'an imposter, an adulterer, a child of hell.'

    "The Moslems gloated over his decapitation. The Christians of Cordova buried him with pomp as a saint (850)."

    Apparently Perfectus never heard of the expression that "discretion is the better part of valor." Proselytizing and discretion ordinarily don't go together.

    Robby

    Jan Sand
    March 17, 2005 - 09:24 pm
    It seems that medieval Christianity and Muslim restrictions both had problems with lending money and assigned the Jews to manage the growth of capitalism. It is evident that modern society cannot operate without a structured money lending system and although the Christians have bowed to reality the Muslims have resorted to working around the rules against lending money. Perhaps the Jews still suffer in Muslim society for their medieval money functions but the enthusiasm for going into debt in our current Western society is obviously getting out of control.

    Fifi le Beau
    March 17, 2005 - 09:41 pm
    Is this the 'peace and harmony' of muslim Spain? I suppose if you kept your mouth shut and showed no independence, paid the tax for being different, had no place to worship, bowed and scraped to the 'invaders' you might escape death, and then again there were thousands who did all these things and died anyway, nameless, anonymous citizens.

    Many Spaniards chose to do none of these things and headed north, I would have been with them had I lived there, not to fight for some religion, but to throw out the Jews and muslims who had brought the evils of Arabia to their home to impose on Spaniards and their families in their own land.

    How did all this play out? Would you rather live in Saudi Arabia under their laws today, or Spain and their present laws?

    Spain made the right decision to fight in my opinion, but others may disagree and buy that ticket to Saudi Arabia.

    Adieu......

    Fifi

    Justin
    March 17, 2005 - 11:28 pm
    Cleugh and Burke, the historians of Mal's posting, tell of the Golden Age of Andalus.In the Ninth Century paper was everywhere. There were 70 libraries in Cordova where the streets were paved and lit for ten miles.

    This is not Durant and his extravagant Orientalist speaking.We hear this story from Burke and Cleugh. Burke writes in "Connections" which I do not have available to check his sources. "Cordova was an intellectual well from which European scholars came to drink." There were 600,000 manuscripts in the libraries. Jews were employed to translate the texts to Latin.The society had a literary rather than a religious base. These are strange words describing Spanish al Andula.

    Burke says, "there was religious tolerance." But Muslims criticized Christian theology while Christians risked death if they followed suit. When Burke says, "tolerance" he means Christians were not sought out and persecuted. They were fairly safe if they did things quietly. Those who challenged became headless martyrs. We hear the tale of Flora and Eulogius and other suicidal folks interested in achieving paradise.( Sounds familiar)

    I think we are seeing here in Cordova an advanced society compared with Europe at this time. The Ninth Century in Europe was bound by superstition and intellectual darkness. Monks were doing what the Arabs did in an earlier century. They were copying manuscripts. But in the main Europe was too busy fighting off invaders to give any thought to intellectual pursuits. One of Durant's postulates of civilization is evident here.

    In 1013 the Berber Arabs destroyed the library at Cordoba and dispersed the books.

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 18, 2005 - 01:22 am

    Muslim group is urging women to lead prayers

    Jan Sand
    March 18, 2005 - 03:22 am
    Since this site is devoted to the history of faith it might be worthwhile to investigate what faith means. It is one of many nebulous terms in common usage which seems to convey something very definite to many different individuals but I get the feeling that these many definitions don’t necessarily coincide.

    My dictionary (Webster’s Encyclopedic Unabridged) offers 9 definitions which range from merely general trust in someone or something to a specific belief in God or religious doctrine. Another source indicates it is belief in something without logical or evidential proof.

    The obvious question is why someone would sustain such faith without such proof and the only obvious answer that occurs to me is that it offers the promise of some benefit.

    Although there are some peripheral benefits offered by religion such as acceptable behavior to the benefit of society in general it is not difficult to discover many examples wherein religion has been detrimental to good social behavior and a good deal of the very good things that religion has accomplished and claimed may not be attributable to religious doctrine per se but to the inherent good will that social beings have for each other. Of course, it may also be claimed that many of the bad things laid on religion are actually the work of misguided individuals but many of these individuals have been in the highest positions in religious hierarchy and it seems curious to me that a discipline that claims to direct all people to good works can be so outrageously unsuccessful.

    The central promise of all religions is that it offers adherents an eternal afterlife. Since it is extremely unlikely that experiential proof can be offered to the contrary, this claim seems reasonably safe for someone who accepts it since the alternative is so unattractive. And even very intelligent and logical minds seem tempted by the proposal of eternal life as witness Descartes. My own feeling in this is that to accept such an unlikely theory without a shred of proof does real damage to the basic fabric of logical consistency whatever the unsubstantiated rewards might be.

    So, in conclusion I can only say that religious faith appears to me to be an unfortunate mental aberration with demonstrated catastrophic consequences and an indication that a very large portion of humanity is in great difficulty.

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 18, 2005 - 04:06 am
    "Among the Moslems religious ardor declined as wealth grew.

    "Despite the rigor of Moslem law, a wave of skepticism rose in the eleventh century. Not only did the mild heresies of the Mutazilites finally enter Spain.

    "A sect arose that declared all religions false and laughed at commandments, prayer, fasting, pilgrimage, and alms. Another group, under the name of 'Universal Religion,' deprecated all dogmas and pled for a purely ethical religion.

    "Some were agnostics. The doctrines of religion, they said, 'may or may not be true. We neither affirm nor deny them. We simply cannot tell. But our consciences will not allow us to accept doctrines whose truth cannot be demonstrated.'

    "The theologians fought back with vigor. When disaster came to Spanish Islam in the eleventh century, they pointd to irreligion as its cause. When for a time Islam prospered again, it was under rulers who once more rooted their power in religious belief, and restricted the controversy between religion and philosophy to the privacy and amusement of their courts."

    "Religious ardor declined as wealth grew." An interesting concept. Does the acquisition of monetary wealth and property lead one toward agnosticism or atheism? I wonder if there are any statistics on that.

    Robby

    tooki
    March 18, 2005 - 05:28 am
    Is "Durant refering to "The Reconquista?"

    Reconquista, 1000-1250

    This site goes on and on; if you can wallow through the detail there's some good stuff.

    tooki
    March 18, 2005 - 05:56 am
    along with lots of other folks fed up with the whole business. On the other hand, some folks headed in other directions. Migration was an ongoing process in these centuries, and it hasn't changed much since then.

    Below is a site giving numbers and brief facts about early migration.

    The Age of Transition

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 18, 2005 - 06:27 am

    Can organized faith be explained by supply and demand? Economists think so

    Religion impacts size of wallet

    Jan Sand
    March 18, 2005 - 06:42 am
    The Berber destruction of the Cordoba library has a familiar resonance to the destruction of the library at Alexandria. Although the bulk of human information probably still remains in traditional books, the ease of reproduction and dissemination of stored human knowledge is changing the whole landscape of stored intelligence. The capabilities of compression and storage of knowledge in modern times makes it almost impossible for vandals to destroy this human wealth and the advance of technology in the last century makes new types of knowledge available to the species hopefully, forever, or at least until humanity devises a method to destroy itself totally.

    Jan Sand
    March 18, 2005 - 07:03 am
    I have no idea as to how the statistics of the relation of religion to wealth but I am suspicious that the size of the groups may have some impact on the statistics. Jews form a smaller group than either of the others and the larger groups probably include a much larger percentage of less educated people. This would have a heavy impact on the average income.

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 18, 2005 - 07:06 am
    "From the very moment that God spoke the first word of Revelation to Muhammad -- 'Recite!' -- the story of Islam has been in a constant state of evolution as it responds to the social, cultural, political, and temporal circumstances of those who are telling it. Now it must evolve once more.

    "It may be too early to know who will write the next chapter of Islam's story, but it is not too early to recognize who will ultimately win the war between reform and counterreform. When 14 centuries ago Muhammad launched a revolution in Mecca to replace the archaic, rigid, and inequitable strictures of tribal society with a radically new vision of divine morality and social egalitarianism, he tore apart the fabric of traditional Arab society. It took many years of violence and devastation to cleanse Arabia of its 'false idols.' It will take many more to cleanse Islam of its new false idols -- bigotry and fanaticism -- worshiped by those who have replaced Muhammad's original vision of tolerance and unity with their own ideals of hatred and discord. But the cleansing is inevitable, and the tide of reform cannot be stopped. The Islamic Reformation is already here. We are all living in it."

    Source:

    Article excerpted from the book soon to be published by Random House,No god but God: The Origins, Evolution, and Future of Islam by REZA ASLAN

    Justin
    March 18, 2005 - 05:31 pm
    The Reconquista or expansion of Christian Spain is a characteristic of the early 13th century. It probably started in the eleventh century with King Alfonso but large scale expansion did not occur until 1250 or so when an influx of Christians running from the feudal system of Europe made it possible to push the Muslims further south. Until that time the Christians were confined to relatively unfertle land in the northern mountains.

    In 1492, Granada, the last southern bastion fell to the Christians, who then gave Jews and Muslims an opportunity the save themselves by converting. A few short centuries earlier, these same folks were Christians who converted to Islam. These folks did not know God from Allah. They flip flopped from one to the other as the power shifted from Christian to Islam and from Islam to Christian.

    3kings
    March 18, 2005 - 06:29 pm
    Robby asks "Religious ardor declined as wealth grew." An interesting concept. Does the acquisition of monetary wealth and property lead one toward agnosticism or atheism? I wonder if there are any statistics on that.

    I have no statistics, but as I have mentioned several times, in Poland, a Catholic country, how outward demonstration of 'Churchianity' rose and fell with the rise and fall of the communist party.

    From 1945 to 1990 the ordinary Poles were oppressed by the communists. If you wanted more than a basic job and income, you asked to join the Party, and if you were lucky, and seemed like someone who might be going somewhere, you were accepted. That acceptance set you up for life. Unfortunately numbers where restricted.

    90% of the populace, knowing that they were not among the chosen, instead registered their opposition by crowding into the churches. I 've seen folk standing in the rain, outside the crowded churches, listening to the mass.

    You will not see such sights today. with the overthrow of the Party, the numbers attending mass have declined. especially amongst the young. All jobs are open to all comers, on merit. You no longer have to be a Party member to become a surgeon, an artist of stage or theatre, an international pilot, a banker, a University Professor, or whatever.

    And most strange of all, in the last election, only about 50% of the people voted, and they voted largely for the politicians that they had thrown out in the first free elections back in 1990. Go figure .... ++ Trevor

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 18, 2005 - 07:26 pm
    "Normally the people forgave the luxury of their princes if these would raise to Allah shrines exceeding their palaces in splendor and scope.

    "The Romans had built in Cordova a temple to Janus. The Christians had replaced it with a cathedral. Abd-er-Rahman I paid the Christians for the site, demolished the church, and replaced it with the Blue Mosque. In 1238 the reconquista would turn the mosque into a cathedral.

    "So the good, the true, and the beautiful fluctuate with the fortunes of war. The project became the consolation of Abd-er-Rahman's troubled years. He left hs suburban for his city home to superintend the operations and hoped that he might before his death lead the congregation in grateful prayer in this new and majestic mosque. He died in 788, two tears after laying the foundation.

    "His son al-Hisham continued the work. Each caliph, for two centuries, added a part, until in al-Mansur's time it covered an area 742 by 472 feet. The exterior showed a battlemented wall of brick and stone with irreglar towers and a massive minaret that surpassed in size and beauty all the minarets of the time, so that it too was numbered among the innumerable 'wonders of the world.'

    "Nineteen portals, surmounted by horseshoe arches elegantly carved with floral and geometrical decoration in stone, led into the Court of Ablutions, now the Patio de los Naranhos, or Court of Oranges. In this rectangle, paved with colored tiles, stood four fountains, each cut from a block of solid marble so large that seventy oxen had been needed to haul it from the quarry to the site.

    "The mosque proper was a forest of 1290 columns, dividing the interior into eleven naves and twenty-one aisles. From the column capitals sprang a raviety of arches -- some semicircular, some pointed, some in horsesoe form, most of them with voussoirs, or wedge stones, alternately red or white. The columns of jasper, porphyry, alabaster, or marble snatched from the ruins of Roman or Visigothic Spain, gave by their number the impression of limitless and bewildering space.

    "The wooden ceiling was carved into cartouches bearing Koranic and other inscriptions. From it hung 200 chandeliers holding 7000 cups of scented oil, fed from reservoirs of oil in inverted Christian bells also suspended from the roof.

    "Floor and walls were adorned with mosaics. Some of these were of enameled glass, baked in rich colors and often containing silver or gold. After a thousand years of wear these dados still sparkle like jewels in the cathedral walls.

    "One section was marked off as a sanctuary. It was paved with silver and enameled tiles, guarded with ornate doors, decorated with mosaics, roofed with three domes, and marked off with a wooden screen of exquisite design.

    "Within this sanctuary were built the mihrab and minbar, upon which the artists lavished their maturest skill.

    "The mihrab itself was an heptagonal recess walled with gold. Brilliantly ornamented with enameled mosaics, marble tracery, and gold inscriptions on a ground of crimson and blue, and crowned by a tier of slender columns and trevoil arches as lovely as anything in Gothic art.

    "The pulpit was considered the finest of is kind. It consistd of 37,000 little panels of ivory and prcious woods -- ebony, citron, aloe, red and yellow sandal, all joined by gold and silver nails, and inlaid with gems. On this minbar, in a jeweled box covered with gold-threaded crimson silk, rested a copy of the Koran written by the Caliph Othman and stained with his dying blood.

    "To us, who prefer to adorn our theaters with gilt and brass rather than clothe our cathedrals in jewelry and gold, the decoration of the Blue Mosque seems extravagant. The walls encrusted wth the blood of exploited generations, the columns confusingly numerous, the horseshoe arch as structurally weak and aesthetically offehsive as obesity on bow legs.

    "Others, however, have judged differently. Al-Maqqari (1591-1632) thought this mosque 'unequaled in size, or beauty of design, or tasteful arrangement of its ornaments, or boldness of execution.'

    "Even its diminished Christian form is ranked as 'by universal consent the most beautiful Moslem temple in the world."

    The opulence described here is almost too much to bear!!

    Robby

    Sunknow
    March 18, 2005 - 07:30 pm
    Justin - Your discussion about all those manuscripts the Jews were employed to translate into texts.....that reminded me of an article I read the other day, about a new interpretation: "For The Oldest Bible, A Divine New Look..."

    It's being digitally reunited, with changes shown side by side in four columns, making it easy to compare. Some of the texts, hidden away, have never been published before, including texts written around A.D. 65, soon after the life of Jesus. It will be several years before it's finished, but it will be interesting, no matter WHAT you BELIEVE. http://www.dallasnews.com/s/dws/dn/religion/stories/031105dnintbible.5348f.html

    It's another interesting episode in translations.

    Sun

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 18, 2005 - 07:52 pm

    Blue Mosque

    Blue Mosque dome

    Blue Mosque interior

    Jan Sand
    March 18, 2005 - 08:45 pm
    When I was in Istanbul I visited a Blue Mosque which looked very much like the pictures just posted. Does the Cordovan Blue Mosque look like that or has there been some confusion?

    Jan Sand
    March 18, 2005 - 09:55 pm
    This is the only image I could dig up with Google from Cordova. I am not sure this is the mosque in question.

    http://library.wustl.edu/units/spec/archives/guides/sturgis-link-photos/cordova-194.jpg

    Justin
    March 18, 2005 - 11:39 pm
    Jan: There are two Mosques in Istambul with blue interiors. One, the Suleimaniyeh was built in 1550 to honor Suleiman the Magnificent.The other, called Ahmediyeh was built in 1600 with a circular central dome on a square base relieved by arcades. The Cordovan Mosque was built eight centuries earlier in the late eighth century. It too has a blue accented interior. In the 13th century the Blue Mosque became a cathedral. The site first sported a temple to Janus.

    Fifi le Beau
    March 18, 2005 - 11:48 pm
    As I read Durant's description of the building of the Blue mosque, my thoughts were not of the 'bewildering space' and obscene opulence but of the many who died to build it as slave labor of the conquered.

    Man builds these monstrosities for himself with a nod toward some god, but it is his name on the cornerstone and in the history book. These are monuments to the excessive egos of despots.

    Durant writes, the decoration of the Blue Mosque seems extravagant. The walls encrusted with the blood of exploited generations, the columns confusingly numerous, the horseshoe arch as structurally weak and aesthetically offensive as obesity on bow legs.

    Durant may have spent pages describing the blue mosque and the man who ordered it built, but he at least gives one sentence to the men who built it and their blood which is embedded in its walls.

    The description of the blue mosque is a perfect example of the religion of Islam. It begins with theft, a pile of rocks, is covered over by its adherents with dazzling color and every precious material that can be filched to fool the eye, built by slave labor, and when it all falls down (as everything does) it will be nothing but a pile of rocks.

    The 'god excuse' is no longer credible, and it is time to hold man accountable for his actions when they happen, not a thousand years later.

    Fifi

    Bubble
    March 19, 2005 - 01:01 am
    "After a thousand years of wear these dados still sparkle like jewels in the cathedral walls. "

    I had to laugh when I searched for 'dados', in the lower part of columns. It comes from the Aramaic 'dad'. The meaning has changed a bit. Dad in Aramaic as well as Hebrew and Arabic probably, means game, breast, nipple...

    I wish I could visit that marvellous mosque.

    Justin # 417 Yes, 1500 is the official date the Jews, who did not want to convert,fled elsewhere to save their lives. It was the time my maternal family left and settled in Gaza (Gaza strip). The head of the family being a rabbi, he took with him the big synagogue doors and repositionned them in the newly built synagogue in Gaza.Much persecution was and is done in the name of religion.

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 19, 2005 - 03:51 am
    This ARTICLE in this morning's NY Times shows the effect religion is having on everyday life. As an example, I live on the edge of the Bible Belt and even at Chamber of Commerce meetings I find myself choosing carefully the topics I start.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 19, 2005 - 04:22 am
    Here is another EXAMPLE of the clash between religious and secular beliefs. As you react to these two last postings, please continue to respect the beliefs of other participants.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 19, 2005 - 04:31 am
    Please read the new GREEN quotes in the Heading and note the direction in which we are going.

    I also encourage everyone to read the entire Heading from time to time as it helps to center us.

    Robby

    winsum
    March 19, 2005 - 11:06 am
    I think fifi and justin and bubble have said it all except for one thing. I live in the bible belt of orange country but don't feel constrained as you do in terms of speaking my mind, but some of these fanatics will KILL to get their way.

    While in a waiting room I spoke with a young religious student who said she was studying to be a minister and yes she would do anything that was called for to promote her faith. I asked if she would KILL and she said YES.

    you are much more visible than I am so I understand your caution but it's really too bad. religion is a danger to us all. . . . . Claire

    I just used the spell check and bible was misspelled because it didn't start with a capital . . i.e. Bible. interesting?

    Bubble
    March 19, 2005 - 11:21 am
    Claire, I find it very sad and distressing that it is getting harder and harder to express one's mind in today's world. It is not about hurting people's feeling anymore, as in being insensitive, it is much deeper than that.

    Shasta Sills
    March 19, 2005 - 01:43 pm
    Durant has said before that he doesn't like horseshoe arches. They look okay to me. I keep studying them to see why he says they look like obesity on bow legs.

    Justin
    March 19, 2005 - 02:52 pm
    The pedestal of an ordered column contains a plinth, a die and a cap. The die is sometimes called a dado but the term dado is most commonly applied to the base of a wall. The portion of a wall we call "chair rail" is in architectural nomenclature called a "dado rail."

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 19, 2005 - 02:54 pm
    The Grandeur and Decline of Islam

    1058-1258

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 19, 2005 - 02:56 pm
    The Islamic East

    1058-1250

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 19, 2005 - 03:03 pm
    "When Tughril Beg died (1063) he was succeeded as Seljuq sultan by his nephew Alp Arslan, then twenty six years of age. A well-disposed Moslem historian describes him as --

    'tall, with mustaches so long that he used to tie up their ends when he wished to shoot. And never did his arrows miss the mark. He wore so lofty a turban that men were wont to say that from its top to the end of his mustaches was a distance of two yards. He was a strong and just ruler, generally magnanimous, swift to punish tyranny or extortion among his officials, and extremely charitable to the poor. He was also devoted to the study of history, listening with great pleasure and interest to chronicles of former kings, and to works that threw light on their characters, institutions, and methods of administration.'

    "Despite these scholarly inclinations, Alp Arslan lived up to his name -- 'the lion-hearted hero' -- by conquering Herat, Armenia, Georgia, and Syria."

    Robby

    Justin
    March 19, 2005 - 04:02 pm
    The rounded horseshoe arch is the weakest of arches. It's thrust is not absorbed at the keystone and driven to the ground. It is used in Saracenic constructions because it is primarily ornamental rather than functional.

    Justin
    March 19, 2005 - 04:11 pm
    I cannot blame the Imax people for catering to a market composed of people who do not wish to seek the truth. They are in business afterall to make money and not to please the scientific community. However, I do think Imax theaters should exhibit an imprimatur when they show films to show that the work they are showing has been approved by appropriate church authorities.

    Justin
    March 19, 2005 - 10:06 pm
    Post 438 does not make much sense and it's too late to change it so it will have to stand as a nonsense post.I was called away in mid sentence. C'est la Vie.

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 20, 2005 - 03:47 am
    "I couldn't but surmise that the devil, looking at the cruel wars that Christianity has occasioned, the persecutions, the tortures Christian has inflicted on Christian, the unkindness, the hypocrisy, the intolerance, must consider the balance sheet with complacency. And when he remembers that it has laid upon mankind the bitter burden of the sense of sin that has darkened the beauty of the starry night and cast a baleful shadow on the passing pleasures of a world to be enjoyed, he must chuckle as he murmurs: give the devil his due."

    ~Somerset Maugham

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 20, 2005 - 05:08 am
    Durant continues:

    "The Greek Emperor Romanus IV collected 100,000 varied and ill-disciplined troops to meet Arslan's 15,000 experienced warriors.

    "The Seljuq leader offered a reasonable peace. Romanus rejected it scornfully, gave battle at Manzikert in Armenia (1071), fought bravely amid his cowardly troops, was defeated and captured, and was led before the Sultan.

    "Asked Arslan:-'What would have been your behavior had fortune smiled upon your arms?' Answered Romanus:-'I would have inflicted upon thy body many a stripe.'

    "Arslan treated him with all courtesy, released him on the promise of a royal ransom, and dismissed him with rich gifts.

    "A year later Arslan died by an assassin's knife."

    tooki
    March 20, 2005 - 05:41 am
    Somerset Maugham and Christian Hypocrisy

    Joan Crawford made “Rain,” in 1932, co-starring with Walter Huston. The movie was adapted from Maugham’s “Miss Thompson.”

    Sadie Thompson is a prostitute quarantined with other passengers on Pago Pago Island. She gets along just fine with the American military stationed there. But the missionary, Reverend Davidson, is at her all the time to repent. He finally forces Sadie to repent, rapes her, and commits suicide. Sadie is then able to accept Sergeant O’Hara’s genuine love for her.

    Huston is great as the religious zealot; Joan creates a showy prostitute, sleazing around in a dirty white suit, white stockings, and run down at the heels white shoes. Reminds me of an outfit I had once; it got a lot of attention.

    But, back to the point. This is a classic movie. Maugham had strong views on Christian hypocrisy; his books deserve worth re-reading for that.

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 20, 2005 - 06:52 am
    I once had an all white summer suit in which I got a lot of attention. I might get one again -- symbolizes my purity.

    H-m-m-m--What does my remark have to do with Durant? (I thought I'd say that before someone else did.)

    Robby

    Jan Sand
    March 20, 2005 - 07:08 am
    White is a powerful symbol. In medicine it symbolizes sterility.

    winsum
    March 20, 2005 - 07:46 am
    and virginity

    Bubble
    March 20, 2005 - 08:16 am
    Don't the Chinese get married in red and buried in white?

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 20, 2005 - 08:39 am
    So I'm pure, sterile, virgin, and dead. Maybe I'll get that white suit and see who (or what) comes on to me.

    Robby

    Bubble
    March 20, 2005 - 09:09 am
    I needed that laugh today! Thanks Robby.

    winsum
    March 20, 2005 - 09:40 am
    lolo lol lol

    moxiect
    March 20, 2005 - 10:39 am


    And now I am getting totally confused! LOL

    Scrawler
    March 20, 2005 - 10:47 am
    White can mean: lacking of color; colorless; morally or spiritually pure; spotless; innocent; or free from evil intent; harmless - so Robby take your pick.

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 20, 2005 - 10:59 am
    I can see you people dropping out from this sterile forum as you realize that your discussion leader (a clinical psychologist no less!) is a spotless innocent virgin, dead (colorless naturally!) and in every way harmless.

    I don't care! I may wear my new white suit to the Las Vegas Bash in September. In that city of Sin I may or may not flaunt my spiritual purity. Keep in mind that I am a Libra and can be on both sides of the fence simultaneously.

    Robby

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    March 20, 2005 - 12:18 pm
    We will be discussing Somerset Maugham's THE RAZOR'S EDGE on April the 1st if you are interested.

    tooki
    March 20, 2005 - 12:53 pm
    Back to Durant. Below is a site to the Battle of Manzikert, Armenia, 1071. We are on our way to the Cruscades.

    The Cruscades Begin!

    Whew! I think I finally coded it correctly.

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 20, 2005 - 01:07 pm
    Well, this pure spotless patient DL was just waiting for the levity to subside. Remember, you started it Tooki with your comment about your white wardrobe.

    And we are no where near the beginning of the Crusades. We are on page 308 and we don't arrive at the Crusades until Page 585. Much to be experienced before that! Any comments about my two previous Durant postings?

    Robby

    Justin
    March 20, 2005 - 01:25 pm
    I wonder why clericals wear black when white is a symbol of purity.

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 20, 2005 - 01:31 pm
    Except for the Pope's mitre.

    Robby

    Fifi le Beau
    March 20, 2005 - 03:03 pm
    I have wondered why the women in Iraq and elsewhere in the middle east wear those long black robes. Black absorbs heat, and when it's 130 degrees, you would think they would change to a lighter color.

    The U.S. military called them BMO's (Black moving object).

    Fifi

    tooki
    March 20, 2005 - 03:34 pm
    and the beginning of the Crusades. The Crusades may not begin IN THE BOOK for another couple of hundred pages, but the source I cited said that this battle was important because it indicated to the Turks that the Easterm Empire was vunerable. This led them to furthur escapades, leading eventually to the Crusades.

    It's the want of a nail, losing the shoe theory. I rest my case.

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 20, 2005 - 04:25 pm
    It began with Dateline tonight and for this entire week NBC Nightly News will feature an item related to the topic of Faith.

    Robby

    tooki
    March 20, 2005 - 04:28 pm
    I didn't find a quick answer, except that it's traditional. My view, such as it is, is that black is a color that fades into the background. Kind of like why widows wear black (or did) for as many years as they wished to give off the message: I'm not here.

    While googling around I found an article discussing why women assume the Muslim black dress. It's a great article. Converts in Kuwait

    Another American Indian aside. When, in the late 19th century, girls went off to boarding schools in the east (run by Missionaries) they assumed white women's dress. When they returned to the reservations they reverted. They "put on the blanket" once more. I think there's a moral here, but I can't find it.

    winsum
    March 20, 2005 - 04:44 pm
    They lost Johnny Carson. they have to offer something that will appeal to a major part of the population only this time it's prime time and the kids will GET it.. I'm make a point of missing it. . . .and the crusades. . . .

    so now I'm being illogical but maybe, knowing me by now you get the drift. . . . .Claire

    winsum
    March 20, 2005 - 04:47 pm
    Is this the fellow who wrote THE PROPHET? It was my teen age bible and I still find it useful. but I thought it was modern. . . . Claire

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 20, 2005 - 05:11 pm
    "The Prophet" was written by Kahlil Gibran.

    Robby

    3kings
    March 20, 2005 - 07:33 pm
    Black absorbs heat, while white reflects it ? Well yes, but only to a very minor degree. Next time you see a white car and a black car standing in the sun, place your hands on both. You will not find any noticeable difference, they'll both be unbearably hot. It's the specific heat of the object's substance that determines the temperature it reaches, not the colour of it's surface. Black cloth will not reach a higher temperature than white cloth. ++ Trevor

    Fifi le Beau
    March 20, 2005 - 08:39 pm
    Trevor, but the white car may be cooler inside which is where it counts.

    Here is an article from the BBC which gives examples of heat reflection and absorption.

    Black and White

    Fifi

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 20, 2005 - 08:49 pm
    I am ready to pick up on Durant whenever the postings seem to move in that direction.

    Robby

    Jan Sand
    March 20, 2005 - 09:19 pm
    The physical properties of the color black permit it not only to accept radiation energy but also to get rid of it. It is a gateway for energy in either direction depending upon the energy gradient. The color white blocks the flow of energy. You see something as white because energy is reflected from the white object into your eye while an object is seen as black because minimum energy is seen from that source. A polished metallic coating is an even better energy reflector than white which is why a mirror works so well. If you wanted to be the absolute symbol of purity, Robby, you would wear a chrome plated suit.

    winsum
    March 20, 2005 - 09:42 pm
    This is so interesting. All those arab men that I seen are wearing white. Not all the women wear black. I've seen some in pale blue. . . very pretty. . . but still too much fabric for hot weather. Religion requires that they cover up though why the men do must be another issue. . .

    There, Have I combined them well enough for us to continue Durant? . . . Claire

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 21, 2005 - 04:14 am
    The latest action of MUSLIMS IN FRANCE.

    Robby

    Jan Sand
    March 21, 2005 - 05:49 am
    The rise of prejudice in France is deplorable but not unexpected. Although most of the founders of the different religions put forth that all humanity should be accepted and encouraged to become part of their religious movements, religions as well as nationalities have formed exclusive communities with outsiders considered not worthy of humane treatment or, frequently, to be treated very badly indeed although accepted under restricted conditions.

    The ideals of the USA incorporated the concept of general acceptability despite religious or national origins although this was and is most frequently not observed. Any doctrine which proclaims absolute truth to the detriment of any other viewpoint is bound to generate dissension and conflict and religions are particularly subject to this fault. Other more homogeneous countries do not necessarily accept individuals with foreign ideas or origins.

    DanielDe
    March 21, 2005 - 06:20 am
    Hello Robby. As my mother said, I am in Switzerland.

    Since this period is called the Age of Faith, it is indeed interesting to look into definitions, as Jan Sands did (#409).

    Personnally, I found it very helpful when I discovered that there was a preliminary question to answer before looking into what faith is. The question: is there a spiritual world in parallel to the material world? And does it have the power to influence the material world?

    It is interesting to find that Christians, Hindus, Muslims and Satanists would all answer yes to both questions. But they differ in the level of power they would grant to the different deities and how they relate to the material world.

    Coming to the definition of faith, if one accepts that there is a spiritual world, faith then is the organic link between the admittedly real but unseen spiritual world and the material world. If one does not accept that there is a spiritual world, then faith has no object whatsoever. (What would then be left of the Age of Faith?)

    If one accepts that there is a spiritual world, the problem is how to discern the truth about how the spiritual world can influence the material world.

    I was a bit disturbed by the story that a young student of religion is ready to KILL to promote her faith (winsum #430). This is quite different from being ready to DIE for what you believe in. Someone who is ready to kill is seeking to supersede the free will of human beings by imposing the choice of an "alternative". This is contrary to the inherent - and from my point of view biblical - right of all men and women to liberty. If someone is ready to die for what he believes in, this signals that his or her faith (organic link) is a source of life; and renouncing to it is equal to loosing his life.

    Jan Sand
    March 21, 2005 - 07:07 am
    It seems to me important to investigate how religious faith is propagated since this has a very direct relationship to the history of faith. I imagine that the originators of any faith had a difficult time to convince the first adherents to form a coherent group of believers. From the history revealed so far, once a firm group of believers crossed the threshold of critical mass, they could constitute a social force strong enough to either convince or to force others to become adherents through threats ranging from mild social pressure up into physical torture and death. Anybody with a modicum of logic or general observational capability could easily perceive the inconsistencies in all of the major religions.

    But on average, it seems to me that the bulk of adherents are derived from previous adherents through the growth of children who are indoctrinated from early ages wherein adults are assumed to be the font of all truths and deep beliefs are installed which are extremely difficult to resist or confront. I doubt that the average believer is much disturbed by inconsistencies in doctrine nor investigates the basic philosophy behind these beliefs.

    It takes a traumatic event to bring beliefs into question and even then, if the believer lives in a society which conforms to these beliefs, doubt is an obvious threat to the stability of the society and probably is quickly suppressed by family or authority if openly presented.

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 21, 2005 - 08:28 am

    ( It's funny that nobody mentioned the idea that maybe there were black sheep or that black dye was cheaper than the bleaches and dyes it would take to make white fabric In the far back old days thousands of years ago, only the highest aristocracy wore white robes.)

    I don't know about anyone else around here, but I'm getting increasingly frustrated by this discussion. As interesting as discourses and exchanges about black vs white might be, and as thought-provoking the idea of material and spiritual parallel worlds might be, that's not why I spent the money for busfare to come here. I came here to learn something about history as researched and related by Will and Ariel Durant. Maybe with some unsolicited prodding our leader might get us back to that. Like this:
    "The Greek Emperor Romanus IV collected 100,000 varied and ill-disciplined troops to meet Arslan's 15,000 experienced warriors." ( Remember him from Post # 436? ) "The Seljuq leader offered a reaosnable peace; Romanus rejected it scornfully, gave battle at Manzikert in Armenia (1076), fought bravely amid his cowardly troops, was defeated and captured, and was led before the Sultan.

    "What would have been your behavior," asked Arslan, "had fortune smiled upon your arms?"

    "I would have inflicted upon thy body many a stripe,"answered Romanus.

    Arslan treated him with all courtesy, released him on the promise of a royal ransom, and dismissed him with rich gifts. A year later Arslan died by an assassin's knife."
    Now I'll wait quietly for ROBBY to come in and tell me I'm out of line by paying attention to, and quoting from, the Story of Civilization, Volume IV.

    Mal

    Scrawler
    March 21, 2005 - 08:35 am
    The color "black" is totally without light; in complete darkness. It can also mean soiled, dirty, evil, wicked or harmful. And it can mean without hope. I think the reason that religious people wear black is that "without their faith" they consider themselves "without hope." And as long as they remain on this earth they show this concept to others by wearing black. Wearing "black" can also mean that you do not conform to society.

    DanielDe
    March 21, 2005 - 12:00 pm
    "Four elements constitute Civilization -- economic provision, political organization, moral traditions, and the pursuit of knowledge and the arts."

    Yes indeed, the transmission of faith has a lot to do with - not only the history of faith - but history itself. If we take the example of the religion of socialism, the brand defined by Marx himself, we have a good example. Here Marx is the Prophet, Das Kapital is the Gospel, the High Priest is Lenin. Marx promised paradise on earth in the form of communism to every people, as a shear result of the flow of history. Capitalism would collapse "by its own bootstraps"; all we had to do was to let it follow its very own path to self destruction. His theory had a lot of inconsistencies; many competent economists have demonstrated them. But he won the hearts. He spoke to the severe inequalities in the distribution of income at that time. There was a great need then for such an explanation. And he provided the world with a solution for redistributing income. The rest is well known.

    The transmission of faith here follows all the paths that Jan Sand underlines. But, most of all, the success of that religion comes from the fact that it appeals to the heart. One man can be subjected to agreeing to words or by signing a document against his will, but nobody has access to his mind. It that area, a man will always be free. Perhaps it is there that the spiritual realm can influence a man’s thinking. Could it be also the product of cultural programming?

    If the Muslim rule in the 13th Century bares any comparison with today's rules, it seems that Islam also followed the same transmission paths as Jan Sand pointed out. I have more of a problem trying to understand how Islam appeals to the heart.

    One of their ingredients of greater justice was the interest free loan.

    Jan Sand
    March 21, 2005 - 01:25 pm
    Of course, one must define terms. This wanders, unfortunately, a bit far from Durant and there will be objection to this diversion but I am rather uneasy with socialism being catagorized as a religion. It was presented as a logical, not an emotional, alternate to capitalism. It was taken over by thugs as most governments seem to be today (please excuse my cynicism)and its similarity to a religion seems to have been only that it could not deliver on its promises.There are various reasons for this. A religion may be a scam, but that does not make any scam a religion.

    Sunknow
    March 21, 2005 - 03:01 pm
    Yes, I agree with Mal.

    And now....back to the Story of Civilization, Volume IV.

    Please?

    Sun

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 21, 2005 - 04:23 pm
    And I agree with Mal and Sun. However, I made two posts from Durant about Alp Arslan and they were ignored. Our general topic is the Grandeur and Decline of Islam. Shall I try again?

    "Arslan's son Malik Shah (1072-92) was the greatest of the Seljuq sultans. While his general Suleiman completed the conquest of Asia Minor, he himself took Transoxiana as far as Bokhara and Kashgar. His able and devoted prime minister, Nizam al-Mulk, brought to this and Arslan's reign much of the brilliance and prosperity that the Barmakids had given to Baghdad in the days of Harun al-Rashid.

    "For thirty years Nizam organized and controlled administrtion, policy, and finance, encouraged industry and trade, improved roads, bridges, and inns, and made them safe for all wayfarers. He was a generous friend to artists, poets, scientists, raised splendid buildings in Baghdad, founded and endowed a famous college there, and directed and financed the erection of the Great Dome Chamber in the Friday Mosque at Isfahan.

    "It was apparently at his suggestion that Malik Shah summoned Omar Khayyam and other astronomers to reform the Persian calendar. An old tale tells how Nizam, Omart, and Hasan ibn al-Sabbah, when school mates, vowed to share with one another any later good fortune. Like so many good stories it is probably a legend, for Nizam was born in 1017, while both Omar and Hasan died in 1123-4, and there is no indication that either of these was a centenerarian."

    I wasn't aware that Omar Khayyam was an astronomer.

    Robby

    tooki
    March 21, 2005 - 04:39 pm
    The image given here speaks to the rivalry between Mizam Al-Mulk and Malek Shah

    Rivalries

    Sorry, I didn't remove the frame, but you get the idea.

    Justin
    March 21, 2005 - 05:54 pm
    Robby,why did you not tell me we were going to skip Durant for 20 or 30 posts. I guess I'm the guy who aked why clerics wear black and so started this diversion. My apologies.

    Arslan is the fellow, who upon winning , awarded his enemy with gifts instead of stripes as his enemy would have inflicted upon him. Such a response seems very unusual in warfare no matter who the contestants are. Generally one's enemies are punished. I thought ,frankly, that we were the only nation in history to treat one's enemies to a Marshall plan at the end of hostilities. There were jokes at time concerning the benefits of being an enemy of the US.

    DanielDe
    March 21, 2005 - 07:27 pm
    My apologies as well. Some temptations one cannot resist.

    This may be an occasion to rediscover what there was in Islam that I used to look up to.

    Fifi le Beau
    March 21, 2005 - 07:46 pm
    Robby, Durant calls the Oman Khayyam story an 'old tale' and probably a legend. No matter what what done to the calendar, it was already set down in the Koran, and you know how that is, 'written in stone'. They couldn't change it if they wanted to.

    Here is a look at the Islamic calendar. Scroll all the way down (it's short) and you can see the names of the months, and when the Islamic calendar will catch up to the rest of the world in a little over 20,000 years.

    Islamic Calendar

    Fifi

    Jan Sand
    March 21, 2005 - 10:00 pm
    Although a bit of banter may not be exactly on point it seems to me that this is not a formal class with a tight schedule to meet. Thoughts about the psychological and sociological basis for human actions within history and at the present time seem to me not only extremely relevant to the events out of Durant but make the very important point that we are at present subject to the same dynamics that produced the historical events exposed in Durant. I agree that Durant should remain our central reference point but analyses focusing on active factors in faith strikes me as very much on target.

    Jan Sand
    March 21, 2005 - 10:50 pm
    At the site indicated it is noted that the starting of any month depends upon the individual observer of the first crescent moon so that months start at different times for different localities. This may be appropriate for local agricultural purposes but it is extremely out of synch with the needs of modern society which can be tied to microseconds or nanoseconds. It seem a factor in holding Muslim actions to a very primitive scheme.

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 22, 2005 - 02:59 am
    Yes, our comments on Faith were "on target" (I myself insert links to this relevant sub-topic) but unless we try our best to stick to Durant, our usual 10 months for reading one of Durant's volumes may extend to the point where your DL with his fading memory may no longer know what he had for breakfast. Let us continue.

    "At the age of seventy-five, Nizam wrote down his philosophy of government in one of the major works of Persian prose -- the Siyasat-nama, or Book of the Art of Rule. He strongly recommended religious orthodoxy in people and king, considered no government secure without a religious base, and deduced from religion the divine right and authority of the sultan.

    "At the same time he did not spare his divine monarch some human advice on the duties of a sovereign. A ruler must avoid excess in wine and levity -- must detect and punish official corruption or tyranny -- and must, twice a week, hold public audiences at which even the lowliest subject may present petitions or grievances.

    "Nizam was humane but intolerant. He mourned that Christians, Jews, and Shi'ites were employed by the government and he denounced the Ismailite sect with especial violence in threatening the unity of the state.

    "In 1092 an Ismaili devotee approached him in the guise of a suppliant and stabbed him to death.

    "The assassin was a member of the strangest sect in history. About 1090 an Ismaili leader -- the same Hasan ibn al-Sabbah whom legend allied with Omar and Nizam -- seized the mountain fortress of Alamut ("Eagle's Nest') in northern Persia, and from that stronghold 10,000 feet above the sea, waged a campaign of terror and murder against the opponents and persecutors of the Ismaili faith.

    "Nizam's book charged the group with being lineally descended from the communistic Mazdakites of Sasanian Persia. It was a secret fraternity with diverse grades of initiation and a Grand Master whom the Crusaders called the 'Old Man of the Mountain.' The lowst degree of the order included the fidais who were required to obey, without hesitation or scruple, any of their leader's commands.

    "According to Marco Polo, who passed by Alamur in 1271, the Master had arranged behind the fortress a garden peopled like the Mohammedan paradise with 'ladies and damsels who dalled with the men to their hearts content.' The candidates for admission to the order were given hashish to drink. When stupefied by it, they were brought into the garden. On recovering their senses they were told that they were in paradise. After four or five days of wine, women, and good food, they were again drugged with hashish and were carried from the garden. Waking, they asked for the lost paradise, and were told that they would be readmitted to it, and forever, if they should obey the Master faithfully, or be slain in his service. The youths who complied were called hashshasheen, drinkers of hashish -- whence the word assassin.

    "Hasan ruled Alamut for thirty-five years and made it a center of assassination, education, and art. The organization long survived him. It seized other strongholds, fought the Crusaders and (it is alleged) killed Conrad of Montferrat at the behest of Richard Coeur de Lion.

    "In 1256 the Mongols under Hulagu captured Alamut and other Assassin centers. Thereafter the members of the order were hunted and slain as nihilist enemies of society. Nevertheless it continued as a religious sect and became in time peaceable and respectable.

    "Its zealous adherents in India, Persia, Syria, and Africa acknowledge the Agha Khan as their head and yearly pay him a tenth of their revenues."

    Much to digest here. A prime minister who believed in a "press conference" twice a week but also believed that government should have a religious base led by a king who has a divine right.

    And some info about an extremist group which sent out assassins who purposely committed suicide in the name of their belief. Sounds familiar.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 22, 2005 - 03:35 am
    Can we read this Islamic-related article about an IRAQI WOMAN and simultaneously hold onto the above posting containing Durant's remarks?

    Robby

    tooki
    March 22, 2005 - 05:26 am
    and living in Arizona. When the Khan was at his heyday, and he and Rita Hayworth were the sweethearts of the celebrity circuit, he was always described as one of the richest men in the world. But there was never any mention of how he got his money, that I caught. I remember this from back then because it troubled me that I was unable to fathom his wealth. It’s a great intellectual relief, shock, and anger provoking thought to understand where the money comes from. Is it somewhat like Bill Gates, whom we all pay tribute too? Does the Windows operating system that most of us use qualify us as “zealous adherents” who pay tribute to the Aga Gates?

    tooki
    March 22, 2005 - 05:28 am
    on the Khans is given here:

    "Salam Worldwide"

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    March 22, 2005 - 05:54 am
    In this LINK we see beautiful art work by Ms Kubba. Click "Back" or "Next" to see other work. Most interesting.

    Leila Kubba Kawash 1994. Complexity comment: Intelligent life is perhaps the most wonderful occurrence in our universe, but perhaps the saddest is the idea that one person can own another. Slavery, in one form or another, remains rife in our societies. Everywhere we look people regard others as inferior and thus disposable, either by genocide or exploitation. In the past the idea that captives were yours to dispose of as you choose, either by slavery or execution could possibly be excused, the people in those eras were assumed, by today's standards, to be ignorant savages and thus knew no better. So what is our excuse ?

    I found this to be so relevant, don't you?

    Jan Sand
    March 22, 2005 - 07:20 am
    Although I agree that peripheral comments that are slightly off the basic subjects presented in Durant should be carefully considered as to whether they make a valid contribution to the discussion, I remain puzzled as to how they might impede the inexorable progress through the material. No matter what the volume of posts might be, it seems to me that regular presentation of Durant material should be able to continue at a preprogrammed pace without difficulty. If I could understand and appreciate why large posting volume might stop this progress I would be very cautious about inserting material I find interesting but would slow progress through Durant

    tooki
    March 22, 2005 - 08:01 am
    when you make a post not related to the flow of the Durant material? Someone will answer you, and then someone will answer both you and the answerer. Look upon these posts not related to Durant’s thread as a pebble thrown into water. The circle gets wider and wider; soon the point of initial entry is gone.

    Keeping the Durant entries at a preordained, stately flow won’t work because the interfiling of responses (1) to the peripherally related post, and (2) to a Durant post become CONFUSED.

    I hope this helps; I would rather not discuss it further.

    Jan Sand
    March 22, 2005 - 08:18 am
    Tooki

    Thanks for the input. I wonder why you find the question distasteful.

    Shasta Sills
    March 22, 2005 - 08:46 am
    Well, Robby, we will try to concentrate on Durant's remarks, but it's hard to do while reading about Rita Hayworth's chaotic life and looking at Leila Kubba's shimmering collages. The Islamic emphasis on design flows through all her work. It's very beautiful.

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 22, 2005 - 12:50 pm

    " hashshasheen": What an interesting story.

    In my checkered career I smoked Moroccan hashish once. No, thank you. Alcohol was my kind of tea.

    I can imagine how these young men felt after they came down from the hashish tea experience and found themselves outside the paradisaical garden. For me the sense of total relaxation and the relief from pain caused by this drug were wonderful, but in the process I thought I had no legs, and that was not good.

    I never knew that the word "assassin" came from "hashshasheen." Wait till I tell my kids, who did their share of experimentation with hash and other like substances in the 70's, too.

    Mal

    DanielDe
    March 22, 2005 - 01:10 pm
    I am not an art critic, but those paintings swept my soul. It makes it worth to respond to the artist’s comment on slavery. The Jews had slaves among themselves. A man could go to someone to whom he was indebted and pay his debt through enslavement. At fixed periods, all slaves had to be released to freedom, and inhumane treatment was not to be tolerated. In that context, slavery was a form of employment.

    The point here is that it is not slavery per se that is condemnable but the pretension that a human being can rise above another to the point of degrading his identity rather than upholding it, maybe to the point of destroying it and him. That attitude about the human nature is something that could still be a menace to humanity. The self destructive mechanism that Marx pointed to is in that neighbourhood: the mercantile rationality that transforms salaried people into disposable material. Mark my words though; I am not a defender of Marxism. He showed convincingly that mercantile rationality was dangerous; but his solution was not the right one.

    The hashshasheen community may be still somewhere around us in a different form.

    winsum
    March 22, 2005 - 01:31 pm
    and missed some of the digressions except that mal was complaining about them Heck Mal you've got the book. You really don't need us at all. . . . now about killing to enforce your faith. it's happening all the time now in Iraq and elsewhere . . . suicide bombers.

    Claire

    moxiect
    March 22, 2005 - 02:01 pm


    Robby - "The assassin was a member of the strangest sect in history. About 1090 an Ismaili leader -- the same Hasan ibn al-Sabbah whom legend allied with Omar and Nizam -- seized the mountain fortress of Alamut ("Eagle's Nest') in northern Persia, and from that stronghold 10,000 feet above the sea, waged a campaign of terror and murder against the opponents and persecutors ......" Sounds all too familiar to me.

    Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't there a movie once a upon time, called "The Brotherhood of the Bell" that dealt with assassins.

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 22, 2005 - 04:20 pm
    Claire:-I respectfully disagree with you that having the book eliminates the need for the rest of the participants. I have said numerous times over the past 3 1/2 years and continue to say that the interchange in this forum is what gives it its life. That plus the many illuminating links. This eleven volume set rested on my shelf for three decades and I never put reading them high on my priority list. Now with all of you together as a "family" I find myself checking this forum at least twice daily and, in the process, have learned much more than I would have if I had merely read the four books we have touched so far.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 22, 2005 - 04:30 pm
    "Even in these declining years Islam led the world in poetry, science, and philosophy and rivaled the Hohenstaufens in government.

    "The Seljuq sultans -- Tughtil Beg, Alp Arslan, Malik Shah, Sinjar -- were among the ablest monarchs of the Middle Ages. Nizam al-Mulk ranks with the greatest statesman. Nur-ud-din, Saladin, and al-Kamil were the equals of Richard I, Louis IX, and Frederick II.

    "All these Moslem rulers and even the minor kings, continued the Abbasid support of literature and art. At their courts we shall find poets like Omar, Nizami, Sa'di, and Jalal ud-din Rumi.

    "And although philosophy faded out under their cautious orthodoxy, architecture flourished more splendidly than before.

    "The Seljuqs and Saladin persecuted Moslem heresy. But they were so lenient to Christians and Jews that Byzantine historians told of Christian communities inviting Seljuq rulers to come and oust oppressive Byzantine governors.

    "Under the leadership of Seljuqs and Ayyubids Western Asia again prospered in body and mind. Damascus, Aleppo, Mosul, Baghdad, Isfahan, Rayy, Herat, Amida, Nishapur, and Merv were in this period among the best adorned and most cultured cities in the white man's world.

    "It was a brilliant decay."

    Where are those Islamic leaders today?

    Robby

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    March 22, 2005 - 05:06 pm
    I am always wondering how people can live in temperatures of over 100 degrees Farenheight. HERE we see The Architecture of Irak: The Lost Art of Clay Construction. This is how they kept their houses cool in the summer. The equivalent to our air conditioning. Fascinating. I learn something every day here.

    Éloïse

    Justin
    March 22, 2005 - 05:15 pm
    The Ayatollah al Sistani may be such a leader. He rarely leaves his little house but is able through wisdom to influence the acts of elected officials in Bagdad. He advocated direct national elections rather local elections with representatives. He emphasizes the importance of Irag for Iragis. He puts people ahead of clerics in deciding political action. Islam is offered to the people and politicians as a guide to approved action.

    That is not quite the way we do it in the US but I think it makes sense for Irag. In the US we elect officials through an electoral college (an unfortunate method). In a limited way the US is for US citizens but this condition is being challenged by illegal immigrants and finally, religion is offered to the people and to politicians as a guide to approved action.

    Fifi le Beau
    March 22, 2005 - 06:58 pm
    Justin, Sistani is an Iranian and an ayatollah who lives like a hermit. I cannot see him competing with the Turkish caliphs that Durant is discussing at present.

    The thought of an Iranian cleric ruling Iraq is unfathomable to the Iraqis I read.

    The discussion of the Ismaili sect headed by the Aga Khan brought to mind a story from my teen years. I always grabbed our Life magazine as soon as it arrived, and that is where I first saw an Aga Khan. Not the playboy who married Rita Hayworth, but his father.

    He looked as though he had on a diaper and was sitting in the biggest scale I had ever seen of the kind you would weigh your produce with that had the weight displayed on top. He was being weighed for a 'gift' of his weight in gold. He was fat, and about as wide as he was tall, so I suppose he got a good payoff.

    Many Ismailis escaped into Africa and found they could collect much more in diamonds after they 'converted' or 'coerced' the population into their brand of Islam. The Aga Khans moved to the west, and began to live very high on the hog from the 'gifts' of their followers.

    Fifi

    Justin
    March 22, 2005 - 09:41 pm
    Fifi; The Grand Ayatollah Ali al Sistani was the spiritual leader of Iraq's Shiites the last time I looked. He could have moved to Iran when I wasn't looking but to the best of my knowledge he still resides in a little house in Najaf.

    Justin
    March 22, 2005 - 09:51 pm
    Fifi: I too remember the photo of the fat old Aga Khan in his drawers being weighed for his annual payment in gold and jewels. Junior was too much for Rita.Appearance was not enough for happy wedlock. He discovered that Gilda wasn't Gilda at all and that she had the cultural awareness of a Joan Rivers. Too bad. She was gorgeous and the fat old man had lots of money to pass on to junior. The Agas were descendants of the Assassins, the Ismaili, were they not?

    Bubble
    March 22, 2005 - 11:24 pm
    Aga Khan has his racing stables outside Paris, in Fontainebleau. My young cousins were volunteering to exercise them every morning in the forest...

    It seems that in Iraq as well as elsewhere in the world, we still await for those great leaders with clear visions of the future and how to get there.

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    March 23, 2005 - 01:36 am
    Bubble, Great leaders with vision for the future don't sprout on trees, it's so hard to know in advance what a leader will do in times of crisis if he is elected in office in peacetime. The crisis would have to come first, then if he proved to be good at dealing with it, elected.

    There is a saying that says: "Shirt sleeves to shirt sleeves in three generations". How often does that happen, I remember the Aga Khan junior.

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 23, 2005 - 03:11 am
    Here is a PROFILE of the Grand Ayatollah al-Sistani in Iraq. A leader similar to the Islamic leaders of old?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 23, 2005 - 03:16 am
    The Islamic West

    1086-1300

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 23, 2005 - 03:27 am
    "In 1249 al-Salih, last Egyptian sultan of the Ayyubid line, passed away. His widow and former slave, Shajar-al-Durr, connived at the murder of her stepson, and proclaimed herself queen.

    "To save their masculine honor, the Moslem leaders of Cairo chose another former slave, Aybak, as her associate. She married him, but continued to rule. When he attempted a declaration of independence she had him murdered in his bath (1257).

    "She herself was presently battered to death with wooden shoes by Aybak's women slaves.

    "Aybak had lived long enough to found the Mamluk dynasty. Mamluk meant 'owned', and was applied to white slaves, usually strong and fearless Turks or Mongols employed as palace guards by the Ayyubid sultans.

    "As in Rome and Baghdad, so in Cairo. The guards became the kings. For 267 years (1250-1517) the Mamluks ruled Egypt and sometimes Syria (1271-1516). They incarnadined their capital with assassinations and beautified it with art. Their courge saved Syria and Egypt -- even Europe -- when they routed the Mongols at Ain-Jalut (1260).

    "They received less wide acclaim for saving Palestine from the Franks and driving the last Christian warrior from Asia."

    Syria and Egypt were ruled by the dynasty formed by Aybak until the 16th century -- not that long ago in historic terms.

    Robby

    tooki
    March 23, 2005 - 05:29 am
    Eloise’s Post 501 has a drawing of a house in Baghdad that is the spitting image of houses in the American southwest. The “clay construction” of Baghdad is called “Adobe” in the American southwest. Adobe houses are regaining popularity as folks aspire to using environmental friendly materials. Those folks indigenous to the area had as a maxim the same one as the Arabs. “Use it until it’s ruined, and then build a new one.” Similar environments call for similar adaptations.

    So, Eloise, move to the American southwest and enjoy the comforts of the “air conditioning” of Baghdad houses.

    Adobe Houses

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    March 23, 2005 - 07:24 am
    Web definitions for Incarnadine Deep red; literally, the colour of flesh (nice).

    Durant uses powerful terminology "They incarnadined their capital with assassinations and beautified it with art.

    Tooki, this nordic woman might not be able to sustain the heat in the American Southweat. When we reach 90 F everybody complains.

    Jan Sand
    March 23, 2005 - 08:07 am
    My dictionary gives two definitions. One is flesh colored. The second is the color of blood. Lady Macbeth seemed to prefer the latter.

    DanielDe
    March 23, 2005 - 02:01 pm
    When I was in Montreal last December, I was surprised to discover that the public transportation system had not changed at all in the past 30 years. In Europe, buses and metro cars were in their 3rd generation of technology evolution. I was difficult for me to admit that my home country was not evolving as fast, if not faster, than the old continent in one respect of our civilizations.

    Coming back to Durant, I wonder what it is that Syria, Egypt and even Europe were saved from, given that, "As in Rome and Baghdad, so in Cairo ... They incarnadined their capital with assassinations ... " The news coming from the middle east has not changed much in the past 700 years, whoever is ruling. (winsum #497)

    Are we not in the age of the United Nations where all the countries once proclaimed "never again ..." Or is it still "sticks and stones ..."?

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 23, 2005 - 02:20 pm
    "Sistani--threat or partner?

    "The Iranian Ayatollah Khomeini shook the world with his violent Islamic revolution of 1979. Iraq's Ayatollah Sistani is superficially similar--he is also a Persian-born Shiite divine who stands at the center of a climactic political transition. Yet Sistani is in many ways the antithesis of Khomeini, and it is quite possible he will have a far more profound influence on Muslim religious politics and the fate of the Middle East.

    "There is much resistance to this fact. Sunnis throughout the region are loath to accept that their immediate political future lies in the hands of the Shiite co-religionists they have belittled and often oppressed for 1,300 years. Many Americans, meanwhile, are panicked by the idea that Islamic clergymen and fundamentalists (who often dislike the United States, Israel, and causes like women's rights) are the key to liberating the Middle East from its age-old hostility to the West. Yet the reality is that these religious traditionalists--and not Iraq's much-fawned-over liberal secularists--are the most valuable democratic allies the U.S. has."

    MORE OF THIS

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 23, 2005 - 02:27 pm

    Mary W (Hank Evans) called me from her home in Texas today. We spent time talking about this discussion.

    Hank has been a loyal member since this discussion began. Now she has vision problems, so can read messages only on her good days. She has some strong feelings about this discussion, but cannot see to post. I have asked her to email her opinions to me and said I will post them here.

    Hank Evans has an amazing mind, and I am very fond of her. She will be 90 years old early next May.

    I hope you can see this, HANK.

    Mal

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 23, 2005 - 02:31 pm
    "The greatest and least scrupulous of the Mamluk rulers was al-Malik Baibars (1260-77).

    "Born a Turkish slave, his brave resourcefulness raised him to high command in the Egyptian army. It was he who defeated Louis IX at Mansura in 1250. Ten years later he fought with fierce skill under the Sultan Qutuz at Ain-Jalut. He murdered Qutuz on the way back to Cairo, made himself sultan, and accepted with winning grace the triumph that the city had prepared for his victorious victim.

    "He renewed repeatedly the war against the Crusaders, always with success. For these holy campaigns Moslem tradition honors him next to Harun and Saladin.

    "In peace, says a contemporary Christian chronicler, he was 'sober, chaste, just to his people, even kind to his Christian subjects.' He organized the government of Egypt so well that no incompetence among his successors availed to unseat the Mamluks until their overthrow by the Ottoman Turks in 1517.

    "He gave Egypt a strong army and navy, cleared its harbors, roads, and canals, and built the mosque that bears his name.

    "Another Turkish slave deposed Baibars' son, and became Sultan al-Mansur Sayf-al-Din Qalaun (1279-90). History remembers him chefly for the great hospital that he built at Cairo, and which he endowed with an annuity of a million dirhems ($500,000). His son Nasir (1293-1340) was thrice enthroned but only twice deposed -- built aqueducts, public baths, schools, monasteries, and thirty mosques -- dug with the forced labor of 100,000 men a canal connecting Alexandria with the Nile, and exemplified Mamluk ways by slaughtering 20,000 animals for the marriage feast of his son. When Nasir traveled through the desert forty camels bore on their backs a garden of rich earth to provide him with fresh vegetables every day.

    "He depleted the treasury and condemned his successors to a slow decline of the Mamluk power."

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 23, 2005 - 02:35 pm
    Yes, Mary W was indeed a "loyal" member of this discussion for a long long time. Please feel free to pass along her remarks, Mal.

    Mary, I am sure that your mind is still exceptionally alert!

    Robby

    winsum
    March 23, 2005 - 04:10 pm
    but I blow everthing up including e-mails to 200 oercent and bold and use my magnifier and it works out. It's worth the effort. . . . Claire

    Justin
    March 23, 2005 - 05:48 pm
    Mary; I have missed your comments and hope that you will return to us through Mal.

    Justin
    March 23, 2005 - 06:06 pm
    Here we are in 1260 with the Mamluk, al Malik Baibar and no sign of the impact of the crusades on the arabs. I realize the arabs were engaged with the Mongols and others at the time but surely the western aggressors must have made some impression on the Eastern powers. It doesn't look as though Durant will cover these religious aggressions from the viewpoint of Islam.

    Fifi le Beau
    March 23, 2005 - 08:51 pm
    Justin, in Robby's last post Durant says this........

    He renewed repeatedly the war against the Crusaders, always with success

    He depleted the treasury and condemned his successors to a slow decline of the Mamluk power.


    I suppose if you are successful in war and holding your ground, all the while spending like a drunken sailor and depleting the treasury, your enemies will eventually write the history of their success made easier by your excess.

    That seemed to be the norm then, and it remains the norm today.

    Fifi

    tooki
    March 23, 2005 - 09:12 pm
    Here you go, Justin. It's a whole bunch to read. I'm trusting you to read the whole thing and give us a brief account. Meanwhile, a quick skim was all I could handle. It's rather violent.

    Mary W
    March 23, 2005 - 10:36 pm
    Today I can see.

    Mal, my good friend, Robby and Justin-thank you. It is good to hear those kind words.I do miss being a cntributor but I still keep up with every word. Despite its changes this remains the best and most challenging discussion on Seniornet.

    Claire- I, too, crank up the print to the max. But no amount of magnification helps with macular degeeration. It is the distortion that makes it difficult or impossible to see. This is not your problem,I hope.

    Thanks again and keep up the great work. Hank

    Justin
    March 23, 2005 - 11:31 pm
    The Franks and the Syrians were engaged at Acre. The Muslims beat them off. King Louis appeared off Damieta and the sultan's chief abandoned that fortress to the King who advanced further up the Nile where he was defeated in battle. The Sultan killed thirty thousand in the battle and beheaded 100,000 prisoners throwing their bodies into the Nile. King Louis was remanded to prison in chains and guarded by a eunuch. He asked for clemency and was granted freedom but warned not to return. Louis returned with troops to seige Tunis. He died during the seige and his troops wishing to go home started back. Less than a few thousand returned to France. There you have the Crusade of Louis from the Arabs viewpoint, in a paragraph.

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 24, 2005 - 02:05 am
    Thank you, also, for your kind words, Hank. Every single participant in this discussion group contributes in depth and in length and that is what makes it so successful. This is a "thinking" forum.

    I am told that macular degeneration is common among those of Scandinavian heritage. I don't know your origin but I am half Italian and half Swedish. My Swedish aunt suffered from macular degeneration before she died and my Swedish boyhood buddy suffered from that as he entered his later years. Apparently my Italian genes are dominant and I am able to read with "drug store glasses" and drive without glasses. I am grateful that this is so and am so pleased (as I am sure others here are) that "you keep up with every word."

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 24, 2005 - 02:09 am
    Glimpses of Islamic Art

    1058-1250

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 24, 2005 - 02:19 am
    "It was in the age of Berber domination that Moslem Spain raised the Alhambra at Granada and the Alcazar and Giralda at Seville.

    "The new architectural style is often called Morisco, as having entered from Morocco. But its elements came from Syria and Persia and mark as well the Taj Mahal in India, so wide and rich was the realm of Moslem art. It was a feminine style, aiming no longer at impressive strength as in the mosques of Damascus, Cordova, and Cairo but as a delicate beauty in which all skill seemed absorbed in decoration and the sculptor engulfed the architect.

    "The Almohads were enthusiastic builders.

    "First they built for defense, and surrounded their major cities with mighty walls and towers, like the Torre del Oro, or Tower of Gold, that guarded the Guadalquivir at Seville. The Alcazar there was a union of fortress and palace and showed a plain, blunt front to the world.

    "Designed by the Toledan architect Jalabi for Abn Yaqub Yusuf (1181), it became after 1248 the favorite domicile of the Christian kings. It was modified, repaired, restored, or enlarged by Pedro I (1353), Charles V (1526) and Isabella (1833).

    "It is now predominantly Christian in origin but predominantly Moorish -- or Christian Moorish ('Mudejar') -- in workmanship and style."

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 24, 2005 - 02:53 am
    I hope I am not making a mistake in furnishing a link to this ARTICLE. Yes, it has political overtones -- if not overt remarks -- but as we discuss Durant's fourth volume, we are indeed discussing Faith and will be doing so for months to come. This article is indeed relevant.

    This article will raise the blood pressure (this discussion group is not designed to induce calmness) of everyone here. Some here will find it absolutely impossible to read it without reacting. But just maybe one or two here may comment on the last Durant posting concerning Islam art.

    I implore everyone not to drop to the level of some of the religious discussion groups in Senior Net. And may we, please, try to react without mentioning the names stated in this article so that we end up being merely a political discourse. And finally, after all those caveats, let us continue our standard practice of courtesy and consideration toward every other participant. It is difficult to speak calmly and civilly about such an emotion-laded subject but I'll bet that this group can do it.

    Robby

    DanielDe
    March 24, 2005 - 03:54 am
    I hope I am not getting ahead of the discussion. Jan Sand’s post lead me to look up for the Crusades and I found this.

    According to Encyclopedia Universalis, the battle which, from 1096 to 1291, opposed the crusaders to the Muslims constitutes one of the great pages of the history of Mankind. For two centuries Europe tried to support a military effort to liberate Palestine from Islamic influence. But, they ended up being chased away. Their last battle, which they lost in 1291, took place in Akko (St Jean d’Acre).

    The Crusades sparked a political movement that touched the whole of Europe, during and after the Crusades. Battle fields involved Cairo, Cyprus, Constantinople as well as Jerusalem. The Papacy launched the crusades. They were based on a 9th Century Papal decree that condoned military battles against the unbelievers to deliver oppressed Christians. The Papacy, after the Crusades, used the the movement to fight against other nonbelievers in Europe and tried to install a theocracy.

    It is interesting to look at a map of the historical situation. http://www.britannica.com/eb/topic?idxStructId=144695&typeId=17 . I hope this can work. It is a link to a page from Encyclopedia Britannica that contains a clickable map. (I apopogize for my lack of technical ability with HTML. I will work on it) We see on the map that the whole of Palestine is completely surrounded by Islamic countries. From a strictly military point of view, sustaining such a foreign battlefield in the long run immediatly looks impossible. It is not surprising that Europe could not stay.

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 24, 2005 - 03:56 am

    Frank Rich is a man after my own heart. He dares to say what others who feel the same way don't say, for fear they'll jump the Politically Correct barbed wire fence that is restraining all of us.

    We're not just headed for theocracy, we're close to being legislated into it. Was this what the founding fathers of this country had in mind? Not by a long shot.

    Mary W and I talked about this very thing on the phone yesterday. Each of us said sadly that we've never seen such a disturbing trend in our country in the combined 165 years of our lives.

    This is what the book I'm currently writing is about. God help us all if what I'm writing ever comes true.

    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 24, 2005 - 04:08 am

    DANIEL, we are exactly 270 pages in this book away from the First Crusade. There's a lot of other history to read and discuss before then.

    Surely they have The Age of Faith in your library?

    Mal

    DanielDe
    March 24, 2005 - 04:08 am
    Robby, I was not aware of your posts when I put up mine. Of course, you lead the way.

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 24, 2005 - 04:18 am
    Are SCIENCE AND RELIGION compatible?

    Robby

    DanielDe
    March 24, 2005 - 04:22 am
    Yes Mal, they do. I have already ordered the book. This will help me structure my thinking. Thanks for the tip.

    tooki
    March 24, 2005 - 04:34 am
    I'm sorry for not mentioning this before. I have a clean, extra copy of "Age of Faith." Since we have about 700 more pages to go, it's probably a good investment.I also have copies of volumes 5 through 10, or something like that.

    Anyone interested may have them for my cost at a garage sale. (Folks out here are too busy boating, gardening, and hiking to read much. Shame on you, Tooki!)

    Price: A buck a volume, for handling, plus whatever the shipping charge is. What a deal! I did it all for you, Sorry for the interruption. Anyone interested, email me.

    Thank you, Justin. Good job! I bet you got good grades in school.

    I am a "me tooer" to Mal's views on the NYT article on Faith.

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 24, 2005 - 04:46 am
    Giralda, Seville

    The Giralda

    Moorish architecture, Spain

    Bubble
    March 24, 2005 - 05:12 am
    I read with attention those last articles in the NY Times. They made me shudder. They made me think of the forms I just filled because I applied for a tourist visa to the States. Some of the questions were: Have you ever be arrested or convicted, distributed or sold drugs, been a prostitute or a procurer of prostitutes? Do you seek to enter the UK to engage in subversive or terrorist activities or other unlawful purpose? Etc, etc. I wonder if in a near future there won't be also a question about religions.

    I was told that after they study the three pages I filled, they will invite me to a personal interview as well. Hopefully after all that I'll get my passport stamped?

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    March 24, 2005 - 05:43 am
    If I had time, and the inclination, I too would find biased articles like those in the two links "NYT Article" and "Science and Religion". Personally I am against keeping artificially alive a person who has been in a coma for 15 years, but when I see the picture of this young woman smiling, I keep wondering if she is dead or alive. She looks alive to me, but who am I to say. I never saw in the Bible anything referring to an intravenous intervention to feed a comatose patient in order to keep her alive. Just because a law is passed in favor of it is not necessarily the opinion of every believer. It is like saying that every Muslim is a terrorist. That law will keep the medical and pharmaceutical professionals in the chips for a long time to come.

    Let's see both sides of the picture before passing judgment.

    Éloïse

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 24, 2005 - 06:24 am

    I have been at the bedside of two people who had suffered severe brain damage. Having a loved one die, especially if that person is relatively young, is very hard to accept. Because I didn't want either of the people I mentioned above to die as a result of this brain damage, I jumped at any sign -- like what looked like a smile, or even once when one of these people, whose hand I was holding, squeezed my hand. The smile and the grip on my hand were caused by muscle spasms, not brain activity, a fact I reluctantly had to accept.

    Terri Schiavo is not, and has not, been fed intravenously for fifteen years, she's fed through a tube that goes into a surgically created hole in her stomach. If she had suffered this brain damage even not very many years ago, she would have died because such technology did not exist.

    Not to sound crass, but who is paying to keep this woman alive? Insurance coverage must have run out long, long ago. Is this a social issue as well as an ethical one? Should it be decided how much tax money should be spent on such cases? Could that money be better used somewhere else, like for the care and education of a needy child?

    When it comes to thinking about a theocracy in what has up to now been a democratic country, would you really like it if the laws of the land were the Ten Commandments and varying interpretations of verses from the Bible?

    Mal

    DanielDe
    March 24, 2005 - 06:35 am
    When we look at that women, alive, one wonders if the phrase "mentally dead" is not a bit of an overstatement. The brain must be functionning at a certain level - albeit minimal - if she is awake and can digest food. The question here is: how much is the media telling us, is it not trying to influence our judgement?

    A faith-based worldview is something that will work for those who are in partnership with the God that they worship. (My post #472) The problem for government is to decide which worldview is most acceptable for the country as a whole. Can a political leader afford to be undecisive?

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 24, 2005 - 06:50 am

    DANIEL, digestion is an involuntary function. It doesn't need brain activity to work.

    Elimination is both involuntary and voluntary. In a case like the one mentioned here, the patient needs help to achieve this function.

    The worldview you speak of leaves no room for separation between church and state. As an American, I can't, and will not, accept this.

    Mal

    DanielDe
    March 24, 2005 - 07:54 am
    MAL, I am not a neurospecialist. I have to take your word for it.

    Concerning the worldview, Government cannot function like a theocracy, as it is not its duty. Theocracy concerns priests alone. That was my point. One advantage of Democracy is its capacity to provide agreement over conflicting choices. The possible negative side of it could be to systematically silence the minority, unless it provided a space for minority to be part of the show (the executive branch). Such provision exists for instance in Switzerland and the European Community. It is not clear to me where the majority lies in the Schiavo case.

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 24, 2005 - 08:36 am

    DANIEL, it doesn't take a "neurospecialist" to find out how the digestive system works. That information is easily available on the World Wide Web and in most encylopedias.

    I have carried a Living Will in my handbag for over forty years. It states my wishes should such an issue as this one ever come up for me.

    Mal

    winsum
    March 24, 2005 - 10:16 am
    back to vision on my mac simpletext has a voice feature whereon I can copy text and it will read it to me. I've got that stuff too and cataracts but still drive and read with strong light and strong glasses. back to business in a minute . . . Claire

    winsum
    March 24, 2005 - 10:50 am
    I read about half and found it was just a repeat of what I've been seeing in the news papers on line and on the tv so gave it up I'll just say DITTO about this issue of the DeMille-inspired granite monuments, on the grounds of the Texas Capitol in Austin, The texans are too cheap to invest in their own monument. . . there I've been a little bit nasty but so many bad things have been coming from Texas.

    as for Terri. On TV one of her husbands supporters or maybe it was he said that when he saw the pictures of her brain and the absolute lack of activity in her frontal lobes he was convinced that she would not recover. . A picture is worth a thousand words and more.

    Claire

    moxiect
    March 24, 2005 - 12:51 pm


    Questions. When did the medical experts begin the "stomach feeding" to Terry Schiavo? Why would someone watch their loved for 15years being fed like that? Would it be because of "Hope" that he/she would improve?

    Isn't the laws of Man based on the "Commandments" passed down through the ages? Isn't how Man has interpertated the "words" passed down through out the ages? And isn't how there is always ONE or MORE man seeking to have absolute authority over others. And isn't that why we have as a nation the means of checks and balances.

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 24, 2005 - 01:40 pm

    The base of the brain controls basic bodily functions. The cerebral cortex, where higher cognition takes place, is what is damaged in Terri Schiavo according to Timothy Quill, a professor of medicine, psychiatry and medical humanities at the University of Rochester Medical Center, in Rochester, N.Y. According to early brain scans, that damage has been there since 1990.

    I wonder what it says in the Koran about people in this state?

    Mal

    3kings
    March 24, 2005 - 02:05 pm
    Oh! Gee, ROBBY. I fear you have fallen into the very trap for which you have, rightly, criticized me and others here.

    Let us stay with Durant, and "The Age of Faith." Just as you and Mal, in the past, have with good reason implored us to do. +++ Trevor

    Justin
    March 24, 2005 - 03:20 pm
    The Giralda in Seville is a Minaret tower with lace iron work in the upper Christian third of the structure. Beneath the filagre iron work lies the formidable structure of a fortress. It was important to protect the Muezzin while called the faithful to prayer. The Mosgue and subseguently yhe Church were all built with and eye toward defense in warfare. The Giralda is in the Morisca style of architecture which is less forbidding as a fortress than say the Mosque at Cordova. Emphasis in the Giralda is on ornamentation but the marks of defense are still quite evident.

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 24, 2005 - 04:10 pm
    Durant has told us in various ways that for us to better understand past events, it is helpful for us to compare them to contemporary events. I have been following his advice for the past 3 1/2 years and have consistently furnished links to current events which appear to relate to the events in his volumes. In my opinion this has been most helpful and without too much trouble have always returned to the topic at hand. We have stayed away almost completely from those events with political overtones.

    In this case, I purposely walked where "angels fear to tread" believing that it was impossible to follow a volume about Faith and simultaneously ignore an event related to Faith that was causing the entire nation (if not the world) to be in an uproar.

    However, I do believe that there is such a thing as "beating a dead horse to death" and therefore, with the power invested in me as Discussion Leader do hereby declare, etc. etc. What I mean is -- our brief venting of emotion has served its purpose. I ask everyone to back up to the previous Durant postings and react to Durant's words. We still have hundreds of pages to go!!

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 24, 2005 - 04:16 pm
    The Age of Omar Khayyam

    1038 - 1122

    Justin
    March 24, 2005 - 04:17 pm
    There are two things about the public's interest in the Schiavo matter that trouble me. One concern is the way the Republican controlled Congress and the president have taken advantage of this family's painful problem. The spectacle of the Senate Majority Leader, a Harvard educated physician with a specialty other than neurology publicly telling neurologists on the scene they are wrong in their diagnosis based on television observations and without ever examining the patient is ludicrous but an example of the circus like atmosphere surrounding this matter.

    No one seems to be concerned that the husband's role in this process is being circumvented. He is the only one with the power to decide for his wife. My guess is, he loves her very much. He recognizes that her brain is inoperable and without hope of recovery. He more than anyone has his wife's interest in mind in the decision to let her go. The choice is hard enough for him to make against the wishes of her parents, without the press, the public, the congress, the governor and the president seeking to circumvent his decision making powers. The pain of the decision maker doesn't end with the decision. It goes on and on.

    tooki
    March 24, 2005 - 04:26 pm
    We’ve looked at many example of Moorish architecture: The Blue Mosque, The Friday Mosque of Isfahan, The Alhambra, The Giralda, The Mexquita. We’ve discussed the fat, bowed legs of the horseshoe vault, and the wonderful spindrals, or holes in the top of the round roofs, through which the sunshine or moonlight filters. Looking up through those openings with the sun streaming in, highlighting decorations on the floor and walls, is close to a spiritual experience for me.

    We’ve explored Arabic articulation of interior space, the intricate effects of light and shadow, and the complicated intersecting arches.

    All of this continues to influence architecture today. Every time you see a building in the American southwest or California with a wide encircling porch and wide, deep cool recesses, you are looking at Moorish. Every time you look at complicated intersecting arches on a new, “modern” building, you’re seeing Moorish... As long as Architecture students take history and explore different styles of Architecture, Moorish will survive.

    Does this say anything about the religion that inspired these buildings, I wonder.

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 24, 2005 - 04:34 pm
    "The artists of this age were apparently equaled in number by the poets and savants.

    "Cairo, Alexandria, Jerusalem, Baalbek, Aleppo, Damascus, Mosul, Emesa, Tus, Nishapur and many other cities boasted colleges. Baghdad alone had thirty in 1064. A year later Nizam al-Mulk added another, then Nizamiya.

    "In 1234 the Caliph Mustansir founded still another which in size, architecture, and equipment surpassed all the rest. One traveler called it the most beautiful building in the city. It contained four distinct law schools in which qualified students received free tuition, food, and medical care and a monthly gold dinar for other expenses. It contained a hospital, a bathhouse, and a library freely open to students and staff.

    "Women probably attended college in some cases for we hear of a shaikha -- a lady professor -- whose lectures, like Aspasia's or Hypatia's, drew large audiences (c.1178).

    "Libraries were now richer and more numerous than ever in Islam. Moslem Spain alone had seventy public libraries. Grammarians, lexicographers, encyclopedists, and historians continued to flourish. Collective biography was a Moslem hobby and forte.

    "Ibn al-Qifti (d.1248) wrote the lives of 414 philosohers and scientists. Ibn Abi Usaybia (1203-70) performed a like service for 400 physicians.

    "Muhammad Awfi (1228) achieved an encyclopedia of 300 Persian poets without mentioning Omar Khayyam. Muhammad ibn Khalikan (1211-82) surpassed all other singlehanded works of this kind in his Obituaries of Men of Note. Containing brief anecdotal lives of 865 distinguished Mohammedans, it is remarkably accurate for a book covering so wide a field. Ibn Khallikan nevertheless apologized for its imperfections, saying, in its final words, that 'God has allowed no book to be faultless except the Koran.'

    "Muhammad al-Shahrastani, in a Book of Religions and Sects (1128) analyzed the leading faiths and philosophies of the world and summarized their history.

    "No contemporary Christian could have written so learned and impartial a work."

    All this marvelous literature must exist somewhere in the Middle East which we constantly chastise for its backwardness.

    Robby

    Fifi le Beau
    March 24, 2005 - 05:13 pm
    Robby asks, "Are science and religion compatible?"

    My answer would be no. Religion is like concrete in its doctrine, and once a fissure appears, the entire thing will eventually disintergrate. It is either all right in its text or doctrine, or it is all wrong. Hundreds of gods have fallen by the wayside, and are now only names in history books.

    Science however is advancing on the latest gods of mans invention; it has chipped away at the declarations made in the religious texts, such as the earths beginning and its place in the universe.

    That scientific proof was only the beginning, and as science advances on the holy grail of religion (man) and mans claim to have a 'soul' and immortality, as opposed to every other living thing on earth, the religious hierarchy is beginning to feel the heat from scientific discovery.

    Most religion is based on the premise of mans inability to accept death as universal. Man thought himself so important that there had to be a way to live forever, so he 'imagined' for himself a place away from earth, an earth where death is an absolute fact that cannot be altered.

    Religion cannot be compatible with science, because neuroscience says there is no 'ghostly user'; the soul is, in fact, the information processing activity of the brain, so what's left?

    Fifi

    kiwi lady
    March 24, 2005 - 08:48 pm
    Some scientists have become believers through their work. Stephen Hawkings did through his study of our Universe.

    I therefore do not believe Science and Religion are incompatible and there are many scientists who espouse this belief also.

    Carolyn

    tooki
    March 24, 2005 - 08:50 pm
    M. C. Escher (1898-1972) is famous for his geometrical illusions. His stuff is as famous as Edward Munch's (sp) "The Scream." His stairways appear to be constantly ascending or a water fall is constantly descending.

    He was entranced, as are many artists, by the geometical preciseness of Islamic decorative motifs. Here's one. I don't know if it's a copy of an Alhambra motif or inspired by the Alhambra.


    "Alhambra Sketch"

    kiwi lady
    March 24, 2005 - 09:50 pm
    My daughter will be going to Turkey for Christmas and she will get the chance to see all those beautiful mosaics in the Mosques in Istanbul. The architecture in Old Istanbul is something to see also. She will bring back lots of pictures.

    Carolyn

    Justin
    March 24, 2005 - 09:55 pm
    Kiwi: Religion is concerned with fixed ideas. Science is concerned with inquiry. Where in this dichotomy do you think Hawkings and other scientists brought these opposing concepts together? If Hawkings accepted a fixed idea he was no longer a scientist by definition. What, for example, is a priest who adopts the scientific method to inquire into the nature of God. He is no longer a priest for he does not believe the dogma. He must convince himself of the existance of God by experimental observation.

    Jan Sand
    March 24, 2005 - 11:59 pm
    Since the query was raised by someone else I feel is is not out of order to make a response. Religion incorporates the proposal that there is an essence in each of us that is eternal. Although science has not detected this in the sense that an ongoing indetectable awareness pervades all of the future from the moment of a person's birth, the concept of time and space as a unity does grant that any event in the past and future history of the universe creates (in a very limited sense) an indelible configuration of space-time. Unfortunately, insofar as religion is concerned, this must be an unsatisfactory substitute.

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 25, 2005 - 03:15 am
    Carolyn:-I have missed seeing your posts here. Good to have you back!

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 25, 2005 - 03:35 am
    "Europe knows Persian poetry chiefly through Omar Khayyam.

    "Persia classes him among the scientists and considers his quatrains the casual amusement of 'one of the greatest mathematicians of medieval times.'

    "Abu'l-Fath Umar Khayyami ibn Ibrahim was born at Nishapur in 1038. His cognomen meant tentmaker but proves nothing about his trade or that of his father Abraham. Occupational names, in Omar's time, had lost their literal application, as among the Smiths, Taylors, Bakers, and Porters of our land.

    "History knows little of his life but records several of his works. His Algebra, translated into French in 1857, made significant advances both on al-Khwarizmi and on the Greeks. Its partial solution of cubic equations has been judged 'perhaps the very highest peak of medieval mathematics.'

    "Another of his works on algebra (a manuscript in the Leiden Library,) studied critically the postulates and definitions of Euclid.

    "In 1074 the Sultan Malik Shah commissioned him and others to reform the Persian calendar. The outcome was a calendar that reuired a day's correction every 3770 years -- slightly more accurate than ours, which requires a day's correction every 3330 years. We may leave the choice to the next civilization.

    "Mohammedan religion proved stronger than Moslem science and Omar's calendar failed to win acceptance over Mohammed's.

    "The rubaiyah or quatrain (from rubai, composed of four) is in its Persian form a poem of four lines rhyming aaba. It is an epigram in the Greek sense, as the expression of a completed thought in terse poetic form. Its origin is unknown, but it long antedated Omar.

    "In Persian literature it is never part of a longer poem but forms an independent whole, hence Persian collectors of rubaiyat arrange them, not by their thought sequence but in the alphabetical order of the final letter of the rhyming syllables.

    "Thousands of Persian quatrains exist, mostly of uncertain authorship. Over 1200 of them have been attributed to Omar, but often questionably. The oldest Persian manuscript of the Rubaiyat of Omar (in the Bodleian Library at Oxford) goes back only to 1460 and contains 158 stanzas, alphabetically arranged. Several of these have been traced to Omar's predecessors -- some to Abu Said. one to Avicenna.

    "It is hardly possible, save in a few cases, to assert positively that Omar wrote any particular one of the quatrains ascribed to him."

    Your comments, please?

    Robby

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    March 25, 2005 - 04:45 am
    OMAR KHAYYAM

    JoanK
    March 25, 2005 - 06:21 am
    Here are some of his poems (as translated by Fitzgerald):

     
    Come, fill the Cup, and in the Fire of Spring 
    The Winter Garment of Repentance fling: 
    The Bird of Time has but a little way 
    To fly--and Lo! the Bird is on the Wing
     



    And if the Wine you drink, the Lip you press, End in the Nothing all Things end in--Yes- Then fancy while Thou art, Thou art but what Thou shalt be--Nothing--Thou shalt not be less.
     



    Myself when young did eagerly frequent Doctor and Saint, and heard great Argument About it and about: but evermore Came out by the same Door as in I went.
     



    Same hands that formed Venus and Sun And wove the fabric that makes time run Same hands brought us here, and when done Will leave behind dust, as if we were none.


    Go here and click on the page numbers for more:

    POEMS

    tooki
    March 25, 2005 - 06:25 am
    Not only did Omar influence the literature of the west, and his influence continues, but he influenced Western popular culture. Who can't still recite, "A loaf of bread, a bottle of wine, and thou...," learned in high school before one had a remote idea what wine tasted like!

    Omar Mania

    Hollywood USED to adore turbans.

    winsum
    March 25, 2005 - 09:08 am
    I picked up an escher print reproduction framed at a parking lot sale. for twenty dollars.It is one of his architectural drawings something like this http://www.mathacademy.com/pr/minitext/escher/big.asp?IMAGE=cycles and it continues to delight me. the perspective seems to change before my eyes and it does have a Moorish feel to it. . . .at least a decorative one that seems to meto be related. Wouldn't it be funny if it were real?....It may be that mmath is related to art as it is to music. . . . Claire

    winsum
    March 25, 2005 - 10:23 am
    religion offers an after-life and science tries to find it. Everything ends including the life of stars . Religion is in denial as is science but it leads the way. both are asking WHY.. . . .Claire

    Scrawler
    March 25, 2005 - 10:33 am
    At the core to me all religions appear to be equal. They all believe in a superior being and they have a set of rules and regulations in which they believe in. The DIFFERENCES come in the way MAN interrupts those rules and regulations and describes their specific SUPERIOR BEINGS.

    Peace and harmony always.

    Justin
    March 25, 2005 - 01:22 pm
    Claire: Religion doesn't ask "why". Religion tells one what "is". Science asks what "is" and "why".

    Justin
    March 25, 2005 - 01:29 pm
    My father, sixty five years ago, gave me a beautiful leather bound copy of Fitzgerald's translation of Omar's work. The book still resides on my shelf, unread. I am embarassed.

    Shasta Sills
    March 25, 2005 - 01:56 pm
    Claire, when you look at that Escher print called "Mobius Strip II" included in the Escher link, can you see that all the ants are walking on the same side of the strip? I used to think I was stupid because others saw that and I never could. But I am older and wiser now so I looked at it again. I still don't see it.

    Jan Sand
    March 25, 2005 - 02:47 pm
    To understand a Mobius strip, make one by taking a strip of paper and tape the ends together - but before you do, twist one end 180 degrees and you will see that now the inside is connected to the outside and the paper has only one side and one edge. In topology it is possible to conceive of surfaces as plastic like rubber so that if you take two Mobius strips with opposite twists you can theoretically eliminate the two edges of the strips by joining them to make a Klein bottle which is an object with no inside or outside.

    See http://www.kleinbottle.com/whats_a_klein_bottle.htm

    (Apologies to Durant)

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 25, 2005 - 03:05 pm

    It's one of the biggest weekends for faith in the entire year and we're talking about M.C. Escher, ants and Mobius strips?

    Interesting.

    Mal

    Jan Sand
    March 25, 2005 - 03:37 pm
    I'm sorry, Mal. In order to stay on topic I should have mentioned that although Omar Khayyam was an astute mathematician he certainly did not discover the Mobius strip and he did not do it during Easter.

    winsum
    March 25, 2005 - 03:47 pm
    seems so familiar to me but I can't recall where I've heard it. " Wake for the dawn" etc. or read it either. it's really beautiful, I think and I"m fussy. . . .

    Thanks Jan for the explanation of all that math/science stuff. Now Justin I think that if the religious were not seeking answers, not asking questions they would not have come up with so many different constructions. I think each is an answer to WHY. . . . Claire

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 25, 2005 - 04:03 pm
    Details about HOLY WEEK.

    Robby

    Justin
    March 25, 2005 - 05:19 pm
    Claire;the religionist when asked about the origin of the world replies without reservation, "God made the world." He does not say, "Perhaps, God made the world." I grant you, there are many creation stories among the various religions but each in it's peculiar way blames the deed on God. Science on the other hand assumes that one does not know the origin of the world and therefore postulates a variety of possible responses that can be tested. The scientist is asking... the religionist is telling... and therein lies the difference between science and religion.

    JoanK
    March 25, 2005 - 05:31 pm
    " The scientist is asking... the religionist is telling... and therein lies the difference between science and religion".

    In theory, yes. Anyone who has worked in science knows that scientists can be just as dogmatic and full of "faith" in their view of the universe as any religious zealot. The difference lies in their power to punish the unbeliever. They can deny him/her a job or publication, but can't kill them.

    Justin
    March 25, 2005 - 05:33 pm
    I wonder where the tradition of the Easter Bunny and egg hunts came from. The practice is secular, I think, and has the same relationship to the death of Jesus as Santa Claus and pine trees have to the birth of Jesus.

    Justin
    March 25, 2005 - 05:45 pm
    Joan: It is most unfortunate that humans tend to equate their personal identity with their output. Of course, that's a good thing and a bad thing as Martha used to say.

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 25, 2005 - 06:15 pm
    More food for thought on the topic of BELIEF.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 25, 2005 - 06:45 pm
    "I Believe"

    I believe for every drop of rain that falls
    A flower grows,
    I believe that somewhere in the darkest night
    A candle glows.

    I believe for everyone who goes astray
    Someone will come to show the way.
    I believe,
    Oh, I believe.

    I believe above the storm
    The smallest prayer, will still be heard.
    I believe that someone in that great somewhere
    Hears every word
    Every time I hear a newborn baby cry,
    Or touch a leaf
    Or see the sky,
    Then I know why I believe.

    Every time I hear a newborn baby cry,
    Or touch a leaf
    Or see the sky,
    Then I know why I believe

    kiwi lady
    March 25, 2005 - 07:05 pm
    Robby I do come in and read often but as I could not get hold of the book do not have much to contribute often.

    carolyn

    kiwi lady
    March 25, 2005 - 07:09 pm
    Robby- every time I have seen a person who has passed away or picked up one of my newborn grands immediately after their birth, seen the majesty of the ocean crashing against the shore on the wild west coast or admired the perfection of a rose, it confirms my belief in The Great Creator.

    It is interesting to note that every idigenous people had a belief in an all powerful spirit long before Missionaries ever reached them.

    Carolyn

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    March 25, 2005 - 07:18 pm
    Robby and Carolyn Oh! yes.

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 25, 2005 - 08:23 pm
    Do you believe how astonished one long-term participant in this discussion is to see such a lack of objectivity and impartiality on the part of the Discussion Leader?

    Do you believe there is any way faith can be discussed without emotion and religiosity successfully eliminating reason from the discussion?

    Mal

    Jan Sand
    March 25, 2005 - 08:50 pm
    Justin

    The symbols of Christmas and Easter are actually equinox symbols taken over by Christianity. The feast and gift giving at Christmas is a celebration that the community has managed to survive through the brutality of winter when the stored food supply has been depleted and it looks as if people will live until the weather is kinder. Christmas is the midnight of the year with the longest nights.

    The bunny and the egg are symbols of rebirth and fertility and the burgeoning of all living things.

    One of the major differences between science and religion is that religion believes in magic. Science believes we can understand the world and nothing occurs without a sensible explanation. There is no explanation for God. It just exists.One of the basic crimes in religion is to doubt and current Muslims can even impose death on doubters.. But doubt is one of the glories of science and although dogmatic scientists can attempt to suppress doubt (as was the case, for instance, in the theory of the shifting of the continental masses), in the end, the doubts lead to new understandings of the way the universe works and generates new possibilities for further thinking.

    Religion believes in violations of natural laws, in miracles. Science believes that if something seems to violate natural law, then the law must change to accommodate it. Science is rational. Religion is not. The one thing that separates humanity from other animals is its superior capability for rational thought. Science encourages that and all the wonderful capabilities of modern life have come from that encouragement. Religion discourages rational thought and frequently denies the results of rational thinking to perpetuate traditional suppositions.

    New ways of thinking can upset the old ways of social interactions so that religion frequently is a stabilizing factor (although not always). But the environment is always in continual change and if society does not adapt to that change it will not survive. Stable outlooks can present a danger to survival in a changing world.

    kiwi lady
    March 25, 2005 - 09:21 pm
    Mal there is plenty of atheistic opinion in this discussion at times which annoys those of us with faith but we don't get upset about it. I don't think its possible to be entirely objective in a discussion such as this. Everyone atheist or believer has shown bias in their postings. For instance we all know by now who is who.

    Carolyn

    Jan Sand
    March 25, 2005 - 09:35 pm
    One thing that I neglected to mention in my previous post is the difference of the basic question asked by science and religion.

    Religion asks "Why did this occur?" and it creates an answer out of tradition that must be accepted without question.

    Science asks "How did this happen?" and it creates an answer out of reasoning and previous experience that is mathematically precise and if the answer seems not right, then that answer can be changed by a new understanding and new reasoning so that it becomes precise and useful for further understanding of how things function.

    winsum
    March 25, 2005 - 09:47 pm
    excellent discussion points but it took so many words. I said the very same thing in just a few. so we agree. religion tries to answer questions and so does science even though the orientation of each is different from the other. . . .

    robby. that is such a nice song pretty tune and all and moving. For someone like me though the words . . . well the words. . . .

    I like Xmas carols too when I do't listen to the words. faith is so emotional it even catches up with me . . sometimes but then music is emotional. . . . Claire

    winsum
    March 25, 2005 - 10:10 pm
    It's been bugging me for years. If we agree that the universe is expanding what is it expanding into? another one? a space without heavenly bodies? infinity if such a thing is a conceptual satisfying answer to the unknown. I guess at the moment I'll have to settle for infinity, but like everything else that is open to question. . . Claire

    kiwi lady
    March 25, 2005 - 10:15 pm
    There was recently a new Galaxy discovered with planets we had not previously been able to see with the equipment we had at the time. Who knows where it all ends? Is it expanding or has it always been there and bit by bit we are finding more of it? I tend to think the latter.

    carolyn

    Justin
    March 25, 2005 - 10:17 pm
    Religion doesn't ask questions. It answers questions. Does religion say, "who made you?" as though making a legitimate inquiry, as though the answer is not known? Not at all. Religion say's "God made you. There is no question about the response. Is it tradition? No, it is the dogma of religion. If there is a question in religion it comes after the answer, not before. Religion does not ask questions. It makes statements. Catechetics is a rhetorical device.

    I hesitate to go further, But I see nothing divine in the creation of babies. We have that capacity today but hesitate to proceed.

    Jan Sand
    March 25, 2005 - 10:19 pm
    Claire.

    Are you goading Mal? The nature of the expanding universe has not much to do with Durant.

    You have the basic misconception about space and time as if it exists within a greater space. It doesn't. This is not the place for that discussion.

    Justin
    March 25, 2005 - 10:41 pm
    Space is a fixed entity. We do not know the limits but it is what it is. We are simply able, with improved tools, to see more and more of that entitiy. I think that is what Carolyn is saying.

    Jan Sand
    March 25, 2005 - 10:52 pm
    Justin

    I'm sorry not to have made myself clear. People do go to religion to ask why. They ask "Why did my innocent child die?" and religion answers something about the will of God. They ask "Why am I suffering from an incurable disease?","Why am I tempted to sin?" and so forth. Religion catagorizes people as good or bad or sinful or weak etc.

    Science does not do that. It points out that there are certain preconditions that devolve into certain consequences. No moral judgements. It merely indicates how things happen. And it can indicate that if the preconditions can be changed, other things will result.

    Justin
    March 25, 2005 - 11:03 pm
    Robby: I think your poetic entry has a lot of truth in it. It explains why people believe. It is clear that folks can be offered explanations for things they do not understand and folks will grasp at those straws. But as science advances rational explanations will be provided. We know what makes the waves enlarge and crash on the shore. We can clone, though we don't and the shape and color of the rose can be altered. More and more natural processes are succumbing to careful examination. I don't wish to convert anyone but I do think we should give more credit to the humans who have sacrificed greatly and have achieved much in giving mankind rational explanations for things that in Medieval days were attributed to God.

    Justin
    March 25, 2005 - 11:06 pm
    Jan: I understand.

    Justin
    March 25, 2005 - 11:14 pm
    Sun: We are reacting to Durant. He is the constant element in all this and each of us is obliged to follow literary rules that require citation when the material of others is employed. We are all subject to the rules controlling plagerism. Ginny insists that these rules be followed and I don't think anyone here has given any indication of breaking the rules.

    Sunknow
    March 25, 2005 - 11:22 pm
    Sorry, Justin...you misunderstood entirely.

    I said I must be cross. I deleted the post, just forget it.

    Sun

    Justin
    March 25, 2005 - 11:27 pm
    Sun: I have done that from time to time.Sometimes I am not lucky enough to catch the posting and I must suffer through it. I understand.

    Jan Sand
    March 25, 2005 - 11:29 pm
    To return to faith.There is an article in todays NY Times by Nicholas Kristof on the rise of Christianity in Africa and how much more plentiful and observant Christians are in Africa than in Europe and the west in general.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/26/opinion/26kristof.html?hp

    What he does not mention is that there is a psychotic Christian in Uganda that is kidnapping children and teaching them to murder and rape in his personal army. Africa is, after all, a well of ignorance and corruption where belief in magic and witchcraft is rampant and what more fertile ground for religion can there be? Much of the religious right in the USA is sunk in ignorance and superstition in like manner in contrast to other areas where rationality is more dominant.

    Jan Sand
    March 25, 2005 - 11:50 pm
    One point much more relevant to Durant is the relationship between religion and central government. All through history religion has been deeply involved with the central ruler.Even into the last couple of hundred years the European kings were said to derive their power from God and this was true in Japan also. The Middle Eastern countries are much intertwined with religious laws taking precedence over secular rule.

    The establishment of the US government made it quite clear that religion should be kept separate from the secular government and it is a strange and threatening regression these days that religion is creeping into government policies. Religion not only is in conflict with science - it is in conflict with strong central secular government and it seems to be winning.

    winsum
    March 26, 2005 - 12:10 am
    is developmental. my son and I wrote this little song when he was three. He asked the questions -- I made them rhyme. Doesn't religion do the same thing. doesn't science do the same thing? And he was only three.

     

    Here is a song that my son Tom wrote with his mom when he was three and forever asking questions

    Why is the grass so green, growin' in the ground? Why do the trees stand still, why don't they walk around? Why is the moon up there, like a little light? Why is the sun so bright, where does it go at night?

    How do the worms all walk, what do they use for legs? Why does a chicken like to sit on all those eggs? Why does a kitty always turn into a cat? And why do mommies get so mad, oh won't you tell me that?

    Why does the ocean float, why does it splash so high? Why are the fishes there, and do they ever cry? Why can't I grow down again until I'm very small? Tell me, tell me everything, I want to know it all.


    Claire

    Jan Sand
    March 26, 2005 - 12:15 am
    To just tackle the first question to demonstrate the process,

    How does grass function and what is it about the green color that is important? From that you can proceed to how the green color emits from grass in white light so that only green is rejected for your eyes to see.

    winsum
    March 26, 2005 - 12:19 am
    Now we are getting pretty far a field but the green in grass is chlorafil and lets it absorb energy from the sun.. it's not only a process it's a scientific exploration . what does it do? why is it there? How did it get there? That's what our frontal lobes are for. . . . Claire

    Jan Sand
    March 26, 2005 - 12:40 am
    Hey! Claire. I'm on Mal's side. Cut out this unDurant stuff! Grass is green because chlorophyl uses all the visible radiant energy from the Sun except green to manufacture plant nutrients out of air and water. That's enough. We can discuss this by e-mail.

    Bubble
    March 26, 2005 - 01:20 am
    post #583

    Robby, I liked that post and saved it. Yes, I believe, when in presence of all that. The question is , believe in what? Not necessarily in a deity. Not in someone overpowerful in the great somewhere. I believe in life, in its power to continue in a vast never-ending cycle. Religion is such a good tool to regiment the masses.

    About Easter Eggs, in Belgium, Holland, and all around there, the bunny was not linked to eggs: the eggs are dropped by bells coming from Rome and soaring around in the sky, giving their colorful bounty for the kids.

    Jan Sand
    March 26, 2005 - 01:35 am
    Although chicks and eggs and bunnys go with Easter in Finland, on Palm Sunday the kids dress up as witches and trolls and carry twig branches decorated with bits of colored paper and brightly dyed feathers. They ring doorbells to beg for candy and small coins as in the Halloween celebration in The USA.

    Bubble
    March 26, 2005 - 02:27 am
    What happened to "Fit the window"? Does not work in SoC! Grrrrrrrrrrrrrr

    Edit: I played with that button about twenty times back and forth and now it is back to what it should be. Gremlins... Faith? lol

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 26, 2005 - 03:18 am
    Are we off the topic? Not in my estimation because I was the one who moved it temporarily from Durant to Faith in general. Those who want to look in the archives will find that whenever we arrive at a holiday, I usually nod toward that holdiay in one way or another. Christmas is an excellent example. Another is Hallowe'en.

    As we are in the volume entitled "The Age of Faith" I felt it appropos to discuss Faith and Belief on Good Friday and Easter. Millions of people around the world consider these days sacred. In my opinion, examining belief in general will help us to better look through the eyes of Muslims.

    Those who think they have determined my personal beliefs because of my posts are inferring. Is that scientific? I am a Libra and on all sides simultaneously. Do I contradict myself? Well then, I contradict myself. Or did a writer greater than I already say that?

    Robby

    P.S. Bubble, that extending of the text off the streen was not your computer. I had it for a while too.

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 26, 2005 - 03:55 am
    Is there a connection between FAITH AND MUSIC?

    And I should add that I not only nod toward major holidays but major events which I believe are relevant to Faith. You can expect me to give links related to the death of a Pope and the election of a new one.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 26, 2005 - 04:36 am

    "I believe in God above. I believe in Christian love."
    JAN or CAROLYN or anyone else who is here, have I ever told you what side I'm on? Have I ever told you what I believe? No, I haven't, and if you think you know, you're mistaken.

    Religious holidays to me always meant pageantry and music. I remember singing a solo at one Good Friday service after I'd had a very bad fall and suffered a knee injury, that years later was found to have been a fracture. After pulling myself up on my feet and drying my tears, I walked a country mile to the bus stop; rode on the bus the four or five miles to the church, went in and stood in the choir loft facing the congregation -- so full of pain I didn't think I could sing -- and I sang my heart out.

    I remember singing or playing music at Christmas and Easter servicees in churches of every possible Protestant denomination in my hometown and many other churches elsewhere after I was an adult.

    I remember singing an Easter service on the stage at Symphony Hall in Boston, as a child, with a couple hundred other children all dressed in black choir robes and white surplices and accompanied by the great organ that is there.

    In the church where I grew up there exists over the altar in the large sanctuary a huge, dome-shaped stained glass triptypch of Jesus Christ. The Jesus figure is standing in clouds, as if in heaven. His arms are outstretched as if to draw close to him all of the congregation, or even the world.

    When I looked at that stained glass window I remembered that in Mark 10:13-14, Jesus said, "Suffer the little children to come unto Me, and forbid them not: for of such is the Kingdom of God." That meant me.

    Jesus didn't care if I had a crippled leg or my back was crooked, while other people were making a fuss about the fact that I wasn't perfect like the other kids. Jesus was my best friend.

    You don't know if I still feel that way. Now, do you?

    Mal

    Jan Sand
    March 26, 2005 - 06:24 am
    Mal I never made any assumptions about you or your beliefs. I am impressed with your assiduous search for and presentation of associated material. And I will try not to wander off topic too often, but if someone asks a question I will do my best to answer it.And I hope you might excuse a touch of humor on occasion.

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 26, 2005 - 06:27 am
    Let's start with a basic assumption. Every one of us here is marvelous, perfect, highly intelligent, and extremely diplomatic. Now that we know all that, there will be no further need for apologies, explanations, or personal remarks of any sort.

    Wasn't that easy?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 26, 2005 - 07:16 am
    The Age of Sa'di

    1150-1291

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 26, 2005 - 07:29 am
    "Five years after Omar's death a poet far more honored in Persia ws born at Gandzha, now Kirovabad, near Tiflis.

    "As if in foil to Omar, Hyas Abu Muhammad, later known as Nizami, lived a life of genuine piety, rigorously abstained from wine, and devoted himself to parentage and poetry.

    "His Romance of Layla and Majnum (1188) is the most popular of all love stories in Persian verse. Qays Majnun (i.e. the Mad) becomes enamored of Layla, whose father compels her to marry another man. Majnun, delirious with disappointment, retires from civilization to the wilderness. Only when Layla's name is mentioned does he return to brief sanity.

    "Widowed, she joins him, but dies soon afterward. Romeo Qays kills himself on her grave.

    "Translation cannot render the melodious intensity of the original."

    It is a rare person, man or woman, who cannot hear tales like this without resonating in one way or another. I don't expect anyone here to divulge extremely personal intimate memories but didn't you pause to relive an experience of your own or that of a family member? Some of you may have had tears in your eyes.

    Robby

    DanielDe
    March 26, 2005 - 08:59 am
    On the subject of religion vs science and/or politics, I shared my view in post # 472. For simplicity I recall the main point here: "if one accepts that there is a spiritual world, faith then is the organic link between the admittedly real but unseen spiritual world and the material world. If one does not accept that there is a spiritual world, then faith has no object whatsoever ... If one accepts that there is a spiritual world, the problem is how to discern the truth about how the spiritual world can influence the material world", and I will add, in our every day lives.

    In a forum that addresses the issue explicitly, it is very hard to resist the temptation to open up one’s heart about these matters and tell everyone what one believes what the truth is. I do hear what MAL is saying (#614).

    I will just share a thought that came to me from a friend whose opinion I trust. Of course, we have the same worldview. But she comes from an influential family in France. Her mother was a minister in Laurent Fabius’ cabinet. She was close enough to politics to be able to understand the ins and outs of it. She herself is a lawyer and she worked as a journalist on television.

    Her thought was amazingly simple: "Since God created man, there is no greater humanist than God himself. No one knows man’s potential better than him, and no one invested in man more than he did." Food for thought, isn’t it?

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 26, 2005 - 09:24 am
    Daniel:-If you want a forum where one expresses one's belief explicitly, you can find a few of them right here in Senior Net under the headings of Religion or Spirituality. You are invited to "sit in on them" for a bit and try to dodge the brickbats thrown back and forth. I do believe that in a fairly short period of time you will be happy to return to our discussion group where we address principles, not personalities.

    Robby

    Jan Sand
    March 26, 2005 - 09:34 am
    If I am out of line, please let me know and I'll try to conform.

    The principle that if God created man He is a humanist is no more viable than the viewpoint that if cattlemen raise cattle they must be vegetarians.

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 26, 2005 - 10:06 am
    How easily do you BELIEVE something?

    Robby

    Bubble
    March 26, 2005 - 10:16 am
    Do you have similar skills. Robby? You too are used to observe...

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 26, 2005 - 10:23 am
    Bubble:-I wouldn't even begin to share what I have intuitively learned about everyone here!

    Robby

    kiwi lady
    March 26, 2005 - 10:26 am
    There are some people who believe anything they are told because they believe in the person not what they are trying to purvey.

    In my case my belief comes from within. I was born into a non religious household but demanded to go to Sunday school at age 3. I was the only child in my household who had a belief. I got teased by my siblings. All I can say is that my belief seems to have always been with me. This belief is mine alone and does not come from any particular denomination and I don't at present belong to any particular congregation.

    I do not believe everything I am told no matter who tells me. I rely on that belief or whatever one may call it within me to process and discern what I see or hear.

    On the world stage at the moment we have Powerful leaders whose actions are sanctioned because their followers believe in the person and are blinded to the actions of those persons. They do not examine their actions rationally. They believe what they are told because they believe in the person who is justifying their actions.

    Carolyn

    JoanK
    March 26, 2005 - 10:31 am
    Coming to this discussion late, I'll add a few notes:

    WHY AND HOW: picking up on what Jan said earlier: my High School geometry teacher taught that Galaleo had brought science to a new level when he said: don't ask why, ask how! "why" questions lead to "because" answers, and such answers lead nowhere. "How" questions lead to exact description, which leads to more "how" questions in an endless chain of discovery.

    SCROLLING: when the text is too wide for the computer (as it is now on mine) it's because one of the posters has made an HTML mistake. To fix it on your computer, remember the number of the post where the trouble began. Then hit "outline" mode(on the same line as "next" and "last", scroll to end, hit "recent" messages, and click on a post that is AFTER the one that caused the trouble to return to normal mode. The scrolling will be gone. The next time you check subscriptions, you won't have the scrolling, not because it has been fixed but because you came in after the wrong code and your computer didn't see it.

    Since I'm prone to HTML mistakes, I always look at my post after I post it, and correct or delete it if I've caused scrolling. Usually it's caused by either posting a link that's too long, using (pre) on a line that's too long for the screen, or forgetting to do (/pre) or (/a) at the end of an HTML statement.

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 26, 2005 - 10:40 am

    First a disclaimer. The verse: "I believe in God above. I believe in Christian love" is a verse I've heard repeated in churches where I've sung.. It has nothing to do with what I believe. Old Mr. Intuitive, our Facilitator, will tell you if I"m telling the truth or not.

    How easily do I believe something? In this medium, not so easily. Face to face is different. Sometimes someone will latch on to my gullible streak.

    At one time I was too quick to object -- to say a premise presented was wrong, couldn't possibly be. Since my head's gotten so messed up by this discussion, I no longer know what "TRUTH" is, so am less inclined to jump in with a hasty rebuttal.You have to give me some facts to back up what you say, though, or I"m apt to dismiss it as just so much hot air.

    Experienced writers of fiction know that there are similarities among people that are easy to see, and there are predictable patterns to how they behave.

    I write fiction.

    Mal

    winsum
    March 26, 2005 - 10:45 am
    It's Purim and fr the first time in a long time it's being celebrated in public. The washington post has an up-beat article

    HERE

    CLAIRE

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 26, 2005 - 10:59 am
    "My head's gotten so messed up by this discussion."

    I'm so pleased to know that, Mal. This forum is for thinkers. And only 7 1/2 more volumes to go.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 26, 2005 - 11:06 am
    Thank you, Claire, for posting that link related to Purim. It is certainly related to Faith. Here is the ORIGIN OF PURIM.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 26, 2005 - 11:22 am

    BUBBLE helped create what sounds like a beautiful Cleopatra costume for a 9 year old girl for the Purim carnival at her school in Nathanya. Not only did the costume win a prize for the girl's classroom, it won a prize for the whole school.

    If BUBBLE sends me a picture of it, I'll put it on a web page and link it here so everyone can see.

    Mal

    Justin
    March 26, 2005 - 12:52 pm
    Claire; I do not wish to labor the thought about religion asking questions but we seem to be talking about different things. I see you as concerned with lay people asking questions of religion. I, on the other hand, am talking about intra religious issues- cleric to cleric rather than layman to cleric. The cleric's job is not to ask questions but to provide answers to laymen who ask questions. If that is the message you are sending, I agree with you. Jan expressed the concept quite clearly, I thought.

    Justin
    March 26, 2005 - 01:03 pm
    It is surprising to me how customs differ from country to country and even between different areas of the same country. When I was a child I lived on the edge of Manhattan in NYC.On thanksgiving Day children dressed in costume and visited neighbors with bags for collecting small gifts. Here in California, I discovered the children do that on Halloween. Now I find that children in Finland do that on Palm Sunday. I am sure there are many other variations of the practice in the world.

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 26, 2005 - 01:21 pm
    I wonder if Moslems do similar things --Easter bunny, etc.

    Robby

    Bubble
    March 26, 2005 - 01:45 pm
    Are there bunnies in desertic countries like Afghanistan?

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 26, 2005 - 01:48 pm
    I should have said "like" Easter bunnies, e.g. Easter desert gophers.

    Robby

    kiwi lady
    March 26, 2005 - 02:07 pm
    My Muslim SIL to be does not personally celebrate Easter etc and asks us not to give him gifts at Christmas. They give gifts at New Year. He comes to our Christmas dinner and Easter breakfasts but does not give or receive Easter eggs. He gives gifts for birthdays. My daughter always sends his parents a Christmas card.

    If my daughter wished she could host Christmas dinner and he would attend.

    However he has been brought up to be tolerant of others religious holidays.

    Carolyn

    winsum
    March 26, 2005 - 02:28 pm
    Most mothers of small children have discovered that the following while general can be true. The age of two is considered to be the NO STAGE and the age of three THE WHY STAGE. during the No period the child becomes aware of his/her autonomy and can say yes or not and loves the power of saying NO. BY THE TIME HE/SHE IS THREE he/she has run into boundaries and come out of self to look at the surrounding world which generates the WHY stage. This is fertile ground for the religious to answer because of god, heaven etc. etc. and so early that most become indoctrinated. After that religion and science are both related to not only the answers given then but the hard wired need to ask WHY which never stops. . . . Claire

    Shasta Sills
    March 26, 2005 - 02:50 pm
    Jan, thanks for explaining how the Mobius strip works. Now, I'm just as smart as everybody else. I also memorized those three easy equations for making a Klein bottle, in case I ever decide to make one.

    Justin
    March 26, 2005 - 03:40 pm
    Claire; I give up.

    moxiect
    March 26, 2005 - 04:34 pm


    Thank you for all the diversity of thoughts about religion but where in Durant are we? I am totally lost!

    Traude S
    March 26, 2005 - 06:13 pm
    May I, an infrequent, largely silent participant, refer to # 583. Thank you for that post, ROBBY.

    It brought to mind a long-buried memory, a memory of someone singing "I believe" in a deep, rich voice whose identity eluded me and haunted me all day. Just now I found the answer : it was Pearl Bailey.

    Thank you and all the participants of this extraordinary gathering for the richness of this truly special discussion.

    winsum
    March 26, 2005 - 06:14 pm
    the age of faith and for almost another one hundred pages too. . . (S) Claire

    moxiect
    March 26, 2005 - 06:18 pm


    Traude, you sure it wasn't Frankie Lane singing "I Believe"

    winsum
    March 26, 2005 - 06:20 pm
    Or was that
    " . . . as you walk through a storm with your head up high you won't be afraid of the dark. . . .at the end of the storm is a golden sky and the swift silver song of the lark. . walk on . . . etc. etc."
    . or were they both. It was a very spiritual story. . . . Claire

    3kings
    March 26, 2005 - 06:52 pm
    My FAITH is that science will in time unlock the secrets of the physical Universe, and understand the facts of LIFE itself, which seems to me to be explicitly a chemical activity.

    My HOPE is that the religious will come to understand that religion is about the relationships between individuals and nations, and is a guide to how best conduct ourselves within our communities.

    In this view, both religion and science are the two feet, upon which mankind will someday raise itself out of ignorance, into the world of, not just knowledge, but of understanding.

    Religion could, with advantage to both science and itself, abandon the attempt to build scientific knowledge out of the book of Genesis. Science should be left to the scientists, and moral philosophy to the theologists. In a harmonious world there is a need, and a place for them both. +++ Trevor

    Traude S
    March 26, 2005 - 07:40 pm
    With apologies for interrupting, a quick answer for MOXIE.

    MOXIE, others may have sung "I believe", but I distinctly remember the incomparable Pearl Bailey singing it in one of her special TV performances before a live audience, when she strolled across the stage and addressed people in the front row.

    Persian
    March 26, 2005 - 08:20 pm
    I've never heard of Muslim Easter bunnies, but I, too, recall Pearl Bailey singing I Believe. I also recall Persian Muslims celebrating Purim with their Jewish neighbors.

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 26, 2005 - 09:02 pm
    As is my wont (I always loved that expression), when special holidays arrive, I am more flexible in sticking to the topic. Be assured, Sunday (Easter) night we will return to Durant with a vengeance!

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 26, 2005 - 09:11 pm
    You'll Never Walk Alone

    (Oscar Hammerstein/Richard Rodgers) from the musical, Carousel



    When you walk through a storm
    Hold your head up high
    And don't be afraid of the dark
    At the end of the storm
    There's a golden sky
    And the sweet silver song of the lark



    Walk on, through the wind
    Walk on, through the rain
    Though your dreams be tossed and blown
    Walk on, walk on, with hope in your heart
    And you'll never walk alone
    You'll never walk alone



    When you walk through a storm
    Hold your head up high
    And don't be afraid of the dark
    At the end of the storm
    There's a golden sky
    And the sweet silver song of the lark
    Walk on, through the wind
    Walk on, through the rain
    Though your dreams be tossed and blown
    Walk on, walk on, with hope in your heart
    And you'll never walk alone
    You'll never walk alone



    Walk on, walk on, with hope in your heart
    And you'll never walk alone
    You'll never walk alone

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 26, 2005 - 09:22 pm
    The following song was meaningful to me because it came out just about the time when I obtained my doctorate at the age of 59. All sorts of people for seven years had been telling me I couldn't make it. Faith is shown on various levels.



    I Made It Through The Rain (Barry Manilow)



    We dreamers have our ways
    Of facing rainy days
    And somehow we survive

    We keep the feelings warm
    Protect them from the storm
    Until our time arrives

    Then one day the sun appears
    And we come shining through those lonely years

    I made it through the rain
    I kept my world protected
    I made it through the rain
    I kept my point of view
    I made it through the rain
    And found myself respected
    By the others who
    Got rained on too
    And made it through

    Jan Sand
    March 26, 2005 - 09:49 pm
    It has been proposed that the place of science is to discover the nature and function of the universe and the function of religion is to mediate human inter-relationships.

    Religion in the past and the present has been the repository of traditional regulations as to how people should relate to each other and the rules have been based upon the supposition that there is an invisible power that will enforce their effects. When doubts are raised that this superior power exists, religious people of good will panic under the impression that humanity will find that the regulations that maintain a good society can be violated at will and total chaos will result. Thus religion maintains its hold by frightening people that it is the only bulwark against violent disaster.

    But we all know that most people behave well under normal circumstances and most frequently even the most religiously indoctrinated demonstrate frightfully psychopathic homicidal behavior through a particular interpretation of religious strictures.

    It strikes me that it probably would be wiser to utilize an extensive and thorough scientific analysis of human social behavior as the basis for a rational and beneficient society and to thoroughly questions every aspect of traditional regulations as to their efficacy and final results than to proceed as we have been doing and letting things work out on an emotional basis with current disastrous results.

    We have as yet not the knowledge nor the understanding to do this but it seems to me a project worthy of, at minimum, serious contemplation.

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 27, 2005 - 02:17 am
    "I know that my Redeemer liveth, and that He shall
    stand at the latter day upon the earth. And though worms destroy
    this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God. For now is Christ risen
    from the dead, the first fruits of them that sleep. Since by man
    came death, by man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in
    Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. Behold, I
    tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be
    changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last
    trumpet. The trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised, the
    dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For
    this corruptible must put on incorruption. The trumpet shall sound,
    and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.



    "Then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written 'death is
    swallowed up in victory'. O death, O death, where is thy sting?
    O grave, O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin,
    and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, Who giveth
    us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. If God be for us, who
    can be against us? Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's
    elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is
    Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, Who is at the
    right hand of God, Who makes intercession for us, Who is at the
    right hand of God."



    ~The Messiah by Georg Frideric Handel

    Bubble
    March 27, 2005 - 03:27 am
    Here you are: "I believe" (Ani Maamin) in Hebrew with translation, and even the music, with and without words, should you want to practice it.

    http://www.greatjewishmusic.com/Midifiles/Ani%20Maamin.htm

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    March 27, 2005 - 04:22 am
    I don't remember a time when I was not a believer Carolyn. My mother being somewhat the silent type never preached' and never talked about hell, but her actions proved to us that she had deep faith, they permeated us by her generosity of spirit in the worst of circumstances.

    When I wish to find out something about a person, I prefer to look at what that person does than what that person says. What legacy did they leave. As we age our philosophy of life changes, after all our passions change and at an advanced age, they tend to recede and sometimes disappear altogether. We always leave something of our past behind for others to pick up or leave behind, nothing is ever wasted, what we read, listen to, what we say and do is perpetuated forever in our children and in those who have been in contact with us.

    Éloïse

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 27, 2005 - 04:58 am
    No man is an island, entire of itself
    every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main
    if a clod be washed away by the sea,
    Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were,
    as well as if a manor of thy friends or of thine own were:
    any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind
    and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls
    it tolls for thee.




    ~~ John Donne

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 27, 2005 - 05:42 am
    Question:-Is an Islamic woman allowed to KISS?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 27, 2005 - 05:48 am
    The history of various EASTER FOODS.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 27, 2005 - 05:51 am
    What is the source of the word EASTER?

    Robby

    tooki
    March 27, 2005 - 05:59 am
    Jalal-ud-Din Rumi’s line, “Every form you see has its archetype in the placeless world,” quoted in Age of Faith, is poetic Platonism, or whatever the Persians call it. Poets, in my experience are given to thinking in archetypes, regardless of faith or creed.

    Lines from a 20th century poet close in spirit to John Donne, Easter Sunday, and The Age of Faith touch upon such archetypes. Here are some lines from “Sailing to Byzantium,” written in 1927 by W. B. Yeats.

    That is no country for old men
    Caught in that sensual music all neglect
    Monuments of unageing intellect.

    An aged man is but a paltry thing,
    And therefore I have sailed the seas and come
    To the holy city of Byzantium.


    O sages standing in God’s holy fire…
    Gather me into the artifice of eternity.

    Once out of nature I shall never take
    My bodily form from any natural thing
    But such a form as Grecian goldsmiths make
    Of hammered gold and gold enameling
    To keep a drowsy Emperor awake;
    Or set upon a golden bough to sing
    To lords and ladies of Byzantium
    Of what is past, or passing, or to come.

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 27, 2005 - 06:08 am
    Some beautiful lines being posted here this morning. Why is it that poetry, with its similes and metaphors and other parts of speech -- and its often apparently vague allusions -- can cut directly to the core of us whereas plain spoken prose often cannot?

    Robby

    Bubble
    March 27, 2005 - 06:19 am
    I think it is because of the imagery: it is not the everyday kind of speech and you have to put from yourself to follow the poem, so it becomes a personal link between the reader and the written word. It would have more impact and thus be special. Some prose that you can particularly identify with does it too, but poetry would do it more unexpectedly and thus better, IMHO.

    DanielDe
    March 27, 2005 - 08:10 am
    The flow of conversation is too rapid for me to follow. Robby, thanks for your suggestion (#620). Talking about religion is not what I am looking for; but since we are on the subject, why not. I am here for the reason that you evoked; sharing thoughts with others about principles, based on life experience.

    Relating to Jan Sand’s remark about cattle (#621), I toyed with the idea of closing my post #619 with this question: "But is there a God?" On one hand, it is legitimate to say no. On the other, Muslims do believe that there is one; and apparently, it is the same God of Abraham that the Bible - or the Torah - refers to. Comparing God's profile among the three religions, one would certainly get different shades of God's "humanist" character.

    Since this is Easter (in French "Pâques", the word that describes both the Christian and the Jewish Holiday) - thank you Robby for opening up a small discussion space for it - it is interesting to remember that this holiday has a Jewish origin: Pesah: the "Pass Over" - when the Angel of God passed over houses that had the blood of a lamb on the side-posts and lintel of their door, thus sparing the life of its first born. Pesah and Easter are not celebrated at the same time because the Church, at one point in time, wanted the Christians to differentiate between Easter and Pesah. But the meaning is the same: salvation through the blood of the lamb.

    winsum
    March 27, 2005 - 08:20 am
    Thanks Bubbles for the site. I went into it a little and found this. If Andrew Lloyd Webber had written Purim music. etc. and it speaks of the passion in his and beethovans music. That is what really appeals to folks about religion, gospel singers get into it. I know I tried it one night. It's like being part of a mob but a controlled one. I liked this particular page at the site It lists parts of faith . . . ."if you will"

    "The 13 songs of Gesharim come from the depths of my being. They express the Jew's most precious values, such as:"

    HERE

    Scrawler
    March 27, 2005 - 08:38 am
    May you find peace and harmony this day and always!

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 27, 2005 - 09:01 am
    Dan, regarding your comment about the "flow of conversation" in this discussion group, I have at varying times in the 3 1/2 years we have existed seen our group here as a group of friends sitting around in someone's living room -- each with different backgrounds, each with different points of view, each with different personalities -- and speaking in the informal way that one speaks in a living room.

    In such a situation, there is no formal agenda, per se, but a "flow" which at times seems cohesive and at other times seems completely disjointed. We are humans. We interrupt each other, we change the subject, we become annoyed, we laugh, we cry, we leave to go to the bathroom, we pause to make a phone call. We try our best to keep to the topic for which we met but, being emotional humans, we sometimes lose control.

    Despite all that, we find ourselves coming back because the pros seem to outweigh the cons. We are a "family."

    Robby

    winsum
    March 27, 2005 - 09:23 am
    The flow of Christianity has found sustenance in AFRICA see .

    this from the new York times

    DanielDe
    March 27, 2005 - 09:28 am
    Robby, this is a helpful and well timed remark. I appreciate it.

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 27, 2005 - 09:32 am
    A most relevant topic, Claire. Thank you for the link.

    Robby

    DanielDe
    March 27, 2005 - 09:45 am
    Claire: Pertinent indeed. Last summer I went to Kinshasa, Dem. Rep. of Congo, as a guest speaker on how to promote economic growth from a Christian perspective. The better informed people claim that in that city, Christians number at least 50% of the population. True, the people are fervent. But, at this point, Christianity there has no impact on economic development, unlike what happened in Europe in the 18th Century, after Calvin gave legitimacy to loans bearing interest rates. In that respect, Africa’s Christianity mirrors that in Western countries. Dan

    JoanK
    March 27, 2005 - 10:10 am
    BUBBLE: thank you for that link. I have spent a great hour playing the songs, singing along with the ones I know and learning new ones. My husband was out running errands, and, when I heard him coming, I set it up so he was greeted by "Hava Nagillah" when he walked in the door. He almost fell over with laughter.

    For this group" Hine ma tov umanayim, Shevet achim gam yachad"

    "How good and pleasant, for brothers to sit together"

    JoanK
    March 27, 2005 - 10:15 am
    ROBBY: you were indeed old when you got your PhD at 59. I was only 56!! But the woman standing next to me in line for her degree was 80!

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 27, 2005 - 10:37 am

    DANIEL, BUBBLE was born in the Congo and spent some years growing up there. Her father was a Jewish businessman. I wonder if he ever thought he had a "Jewish perspective" of the economy?

    What does that mean -- how to promote economic growth from a Christian pespective?

    Mal

    tooki
    March 27, 2005 - 11:06 am
    Here's another important Easter Sunday in Ireland,1916. A group of nationalist rebels set out to conquer Dublin and Ireland for the Irish, to boot the British out for once and for all. This pivotal event was the beginning of “The Troubles” and the organization of the IRA (Irish Republican Army), still with us offering to assassinate those getting in the way.

    The Rising was summarily put down, after a flurry of killings. About 500 British soldiers were killed, and over 1000 Irish civilians. Because the rebels wore civilian clothes, non-involved civilians were killed.

    The leaders, Patrick Pearse and James Connolly, were tried by a secret Military Court, executed in secret. and then their deaths publicly announced. Connolly was badly wounded and had been tied to a chair and shot. The Irish flocked to the cause of freedom. Other Rebellion leaders became leaders in the republican movement that pushed Ireland into Civil War.

    Our poet, W. B. Yeats, whom I quoted in an earlier post, he of “Sailing to Byzantium,” and coiner of the well known metaphor, “The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity,” and “What rough beast, its hour come round at last, slouches toward Bethelum to be born,” was a raging nationalist and wrote “Easter, 1916” in September, 1916. Here are a few lines.

    All changed, changed utterly :
    A terrible beauty is born.


    Was it needless death after all?
    For England may keep faith
    For all that is done and said.
    We know their dream; enough
    To know they dreamed and are dead.


    I write it out in a verse
    MacDonagh and MacBride
    And Connolly and Pearse
    Now and in time to be,
    Wherever green is worn,
    Are changed, changed utterly:
    A terrible beauty is born.


    End

    The conceit that freedom is a terrible beauty is, I think, quite wonderful.

    winsum
    March 27, 2005 - 11:18 am
    but this is quite different and better in that we have access to the GLORIES of the net and can quote what we find to each other in addition to a task oriented discussion which keeps us from interrupting each other in sound waves which would make it hard for some of us to hear. I value the digressions. . these are wonderful. . . . Claire

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 27, 2005 - 11:51 am
    Tonight I am going out dancing and will be home about 10 p.m. at which time I will bring us back to Durant. In the meantime, enjoy your digressions!

    Robby

    kiwi lady
    March 27, 2005 - 11:58 am
    Bubble - Thank you for the link. I have always loved Jewish religious music. I have saved the link.

    One year, we, at the little Baptist Church our family was attending at the time, celebrated Passover in the ancient tradition. It was the most moving service I have ever attended.

    I think that music and poetry speak to the soul. That is my personal opinion.

    Carolyn

    Bubble
    March 27, 2005 - 12:01 pm
    Daniel, In RD of Congo, at first (in the 30s) there were the educated Europeans who came to settle there and there were the poor locals who longed for the riches they saw in the hands of the new settlers. The missionaries came and opened schools. All those schools were Roman catholics, most were Jesuits schools. The Africans saw the key to development in the learning and that went hand in hand with the religion. Is it a wonder then that over 50% are now catholics? They had no other alternatives.

    Their leaders did not show much Christian spirit, the way they pocketed fortunes and stached that abroad.

    DanielDe
    March 27, 2005 - 12:42 pm
    MAL: The world is indeed a small place. The Christian perspective on economic growth is built on the Jewish perspective. The problem that the average Christian Congolese faces on day to day basis is being able to eat three meals a day. Seeking economic growth for a Christian in that perspective is quite legitimate. The Bible gives two opposite messages concerning Wealth. One is a warning not to seek Wealth for its own sake (equals serving the god of money rather than God Himself). The other is that God wants his people to be prosperous economically; because this confirms the covenant that He took with the Father of Israel, namely Abraham. But there are conditions. Many of the "Get rich in the name of God" preachers base their message on some passages of the Word, but do not talk about the conditions. And that is a misleading message. There lies the danger. It amounts to encouraging listeners to seek Wealth for itself. If encouraging poor people to seek increase in revenue is OK, the conditions must be laid out clearly, otherwise it would lead them astray. In short, what God is seeking is a relationship with a people that will walk with Him in order to restore justice on earth. That is His primary goal and He will not intervene directly. With those that want to work for justice, God will provide the means that they will need, even very large amounts of capital. So, the right attitude is one in which a servant of justice sees him(her)self as a steward of God’s creation, working for the Glory of God and not his own personal glory. Only then can the distribution of Wealth achieve some Godly justice. Although it leaves some questions unanswered, I hope that is understandable and not too long an explanation. Dan

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 27, 2005 - 12:52 pm
    Dan:-I am interpreting the latter part of your post as your individual belief to which you are, or course, entitled. As you are a newcomer to this discussion group, it is only fair that the guidelines which you may not have read be re-posted here.

    Quoting Durant:-"The preponderant bequest of the Age of Faith was religion."

    For this reason, it will be impossible to participate in this forum without discussing "religion" from time to time.

    "The following guidelines will be enforced by the Discussion Leader to avoid confrontations and digressions about personal religious views.

    "1 - You may make one post describing your own beliefs related to religion (whether you have a religious faith or do not) in order to explain your viewpoint toward the topic at hand. Making additional posts about your religious beliefs or faith is not permitted.
    2 - Do not speak of your religion or absence of religious beliefs as "the truth."
    3 - Do not attempt to change another's conviction about religion.

    "Comments about issues are welcomed. Negative comments about other participants are not permitted.

    "Those participants who do not believe they are being treated fairly in this respect always have the right to contact Marcie, Director of Education. I will follow her guidance."

    DanielDe
    March 27, 2005 - 12:57 pm
    BUBBLE: The Protestant and Evangelical Churches are also numerous. Somehow, Africans have a more open attitude towards faith than Westerners. I think there is a cultural dimension to that difference. But you are right, the political leaders of the country plundered the wealth of that nation, and a case could be made that the people were maintained in a state of "happy" poverty. I am not convinced that things are much different today, even as Mobutu has gone.

    One key to economic growth for such a country, I think, is building the people’s confidence in themselves. They must be given the tools in terms of savings and investment that will start at a small scale and grow from there. There seems to be a cultural barrier to be broken. Dan

    DanielDe
    March 27, 2005 - 01:05 pm
    Robby - Of course I agree to submit to those rules. I also try to abide by them. It was a good idea to refresh my mind at any rate. Dan

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 27, 2005 - 01:12 pm
    I may have misunderstood the meaning but it is always good to choose phraseology which makes it clear that it is the belief of others (whether yours or not). Your constant well-thought out postings are welcome.

    Robby

    Jan Sand
    March 27, 2005 - 02:09 pm
    I don't know what part Christianity played in King Leopold of Belgium's slaying 8 to 10 million inhabitants of the Congo in his unrestricted greed but it doesn't seem to have done much for the people.

    See http://www.crf-usa.org/bria/bria16_2.html

    Bubble
    March 27, 2005 - 02:34 pm
    Jan, the situation is not much better nowadays in RD Congo that covers slightly less than a quarter of the US surface. From what I heard from Congolese women I hosted last month the people they fear most are those men from the UN who came to "help maintain order". But we disgress very far from faith here, unless it shows that it some may lose faith when faced with the behavior of so called civilised humans.

    tooki
    March 27, 2005 - 04:33 pm
    on today’s topic, Faith, I submit this charmer by that great rhymer, Rudyard Kipling, (1865-1936).

    When Earth’s last picture is painted, and the tubes are
    twisted and dried,
    When the oldest colours have faded, and the youngest
    critic has died,
    We shall rest, and faith, we shall need it – lie down for an
    aeon or two,
    Till the Master of All Good Workmen shall set us to work
    anew!

    Persian
    March 27, 2005 - 05:52 pm
    Although this link features an article in The Charlotte Observer which focuses primarily on the political structure of Saudi Arabia, there is some interesting information about the differences in Islam between the Sunni mainstream (and the Wahhabis of Saudi Arabia) and the Shia. This may be helpful to readers who remain unsure about the two branches of Islam or who might like to read comments from Saudis about why they believe that Islam should be the first consideration of their society, rather than in concert with the Western style of democracy favored by so many of the younger generations.

    http://www.charlotte.com/mld/observer/news/editorial/11241885.htm

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 27, 2005 - 08:23 pm
    Moslem Science

    1057-1258

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 27, 2005 - 08:39 pm
    "Moslem scholars divided the medieval people into two classes -- those that cultivated science and those that did not.

    "In the first class they named the Hindus, Persians, Babylonians, Jews, Greeks, Egyptians, and Arabs. These, in their view, were the elite of the world.

    "The others of whom the Chinese and the Turks were the best, resembled animals rather than men. The judgment sinned chiefly agaainst the Chinese.

    "The Moslems continued in this period, and their unchallenged ascendancy in science. In mathematics the most signal and advances were made in Morocco and Azerbaijan. We see here again the range of Islamic civilization. In 1229 Hasan al-Marraquash (i.e. of Marraqesh) published tables of sines for each degree and tables of versed sines, arc sines and arc cotangents.

    "A generation later Nasir ud-Din al-Tusi (i.e. of Tus) issued the first treatise in which trigonometry was considered s an independent science rather than an appendate for astronomy. This Kitab shakl al-shakl al=qatta a remained without a rival in its field until the De Trian-gulit of Regionmontanus two ccenturies later.

    "Perhaps Chinese trigonometry whch appears in the second half of the thitettenth century, was of Arabic origin.

    Robby

    kiwi lady
    March 27, 2005 - 09:46 pm
    The Muslims were correct. For instance the British were very primitive compared to the Middle Eastern Countries. It was the Roman occupation that gave the Britons a kick start in developing their Civilization.

    Jan Sand
    March 27, 2005 - 09:47 pm
    It is curious to my understanding of mathematics that trigonometry should be somehow associated principally with astronomy as any very basic construction of houses and bridges and roads and monuments is deeply concerned with the principles of measuring angles and distances which is the main concern of and origin of trigonometry.

    Jan Sand
    March 27, 2005 - 10:15 pm
    Although some of the aspects of attitude have been mentioned here as to the difference between science and religion, one of the most basic if not the most basic difference has to do with the conceived special place of mankind in the universe.

    Each of us is forced to consider him or herself very special in the universe by the primary fact that it is the point from which we view everything else. This sense of specialness has been, through faith, extended to humanity in general. Every discovery in science that has indicated that humanity, and even the planet itself, has no special status in an overwhelmingly huge and unaware universe has been fought tooth and nail by religions from very ancient times until the present.

    That the Earth is not the center of the solar system, that overwhelming evidence indicates humans are descended from other species, that even organic chemistry conforms to the laws formulated for inorganic chemistry have all been confirmed by science and fought by believers in the specialness of life in general and humanity specifically.

    Well established and respected scientists and philosophers even today refuse to accept that mankind is part of and unrelentingly subject to the basic physical laws of cause and effect and maintain the idea based in the unconfirmable belief that human decisions are independent of natural law.

    I concurr that it is uncomfortable to accept that our sense of independent choice is totally monitored by our physical capability and our previous experience but to conclude otherwise is to court chaos.

    And this is the very basic conflict between religion and science.

    DanielDe
    March 27, 2005 - 11:37 pm
    Jan Sand made a good point. Pyramids have been around for thousands of years BC. On what science did the Egyptians found their work? Here is a translation of an excerpt from Encyclopaedia Universalis: "We see already in ancient Egypt, next to a practice of geometry, the beginning of a science comprising notably different propositions on the properties of triangles and circles. Later, in Greece, principally with Tales in the 6th Century BC, Pythagoras and Hippocrates of Khios in the 5th Century, Eudoxus in the 4th Century, a sizeable number of geometric results were obtained: inserting a sphere in a cone, the similarity of triangles, the principle properties of circles, regular polygons and polyhedrons, and conic sections. Utilising these data and completing them, Euclid (end of 4th Century BC) produced with his Elements, the first synthesis of geometry."

    Later down the line, trigonometry and geometry will fold into mathematics and the six formulas of trigonometry will be retained as tools giving different paths to solving equations. I don’t know to what extent the practice of geometry may have proved sufficient for the complex works of architecture one can find the ancient times. But one can imagine that at the time Hipparque, 2nd Century BC, the greatest astronomer of Antiquity, mathematics using trigonometry were the only way for him to estimate angles and distances ... in outer space. Among other things, he discovered the precession of the equinoxes and he measured the distance between the Earth and the Moon ... 2nd Century BC? I find that amazing.

    DanielDe
    March 27, 2005 - 11:57 pm
    To Jan Sand's last post I would add one question: "Who or what controls the direction of time?" A more simple way of stating the same question is the well known: "Where are we going? or What are we headed for?" Jan's conclusion "our sense of independent choice is totally monitored by our physical capability and our previous experience" means that the domain of basic physical laws - to which we are undisputedly subject to - is the only area that can provide answers to that question. Have I read the conclusion correctly?

    Bubble
    March 28, 2005 - 12:00 am
    Isn't the direction of time like the direction of water? Down, down, down... and maybe there is some gravitational power to it that we are less aware of and which would change its direction?

    DanielDe
    March 28, 2005 - 12:16 am
    The correct spelling for "Hipparque" in English is "Hipparchus" or "Hipparchos". Ptolemy came after, publishing the Almagest in the 2nd Century AD, which completed Hipparchus' work on trigonometry.

    DanielDe
    March 28, 2005 - 12:24 am
    BUBBLE: I just had to laugh. I don't know anyone who does not agree with you (maybe not for the same reasons though). I know of only two authors that made propositions. One is Hans Hermann Hope, an economist, in his book "Democracy, The God that Failed". The other unfortunately is French, Jean-Claude Guillebaud, a journalist and philosopher, in his last book "The Taste of Future".

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 28, 2005 - 04:28 am
    "This age produced two geographers of universal medieval renown.

    "Abu bdallah Muhammad al-Idrisi was born at Ceuta (1100), studied at Cordova, and wrote in Palermo, at the behest of King Roger II of Sicily, his Kitab al-Rujari (Roger's Book). It divided the earth into seven climatic zones, and each zone into ten parts -- each of the seventy parts of medieval cartography, unprecedented in fullness, accuracy, and scope. Abl-Irisi, like most Moslem scientits, took for granted the sphericity of the earth.

    "Rivaling him for the honor of being the greatest medieval geographer was Abu Abdallah Yaqut (1179-1229). Born a Greek in Asia Minor, he was captured in war and enslaved but the Baghdad merchant who bought him gave him a good education and then freed him. He traveled much first as a merchant, then as a geographer fascinated by places and their diverse populations, dress, and ways.

    "He rejoiced to find ten libraries at Merv, one containing 12,000 volumes. The discriminating curators allowed him to take as many as 200 volumes at a time to his room. Those who have loved books as the lifeblood of great men will sense the dusty joy he felt in these treasuries of the mind.

    "He moved on to Khiva and Balkh. There the Mongols almost caught him in their murderous advance. He fled, naked, but clutching his manuscripts, across Persia to Mosul. While buttering the bread of poverty as a copyist, he completed his Mu'jam al-Buddan (1228) -- a vast geographical encyclopedia which summed up nearly all medieval knowledge of the globe.

    "Yaqut included almost everything -- astronomy, physics, archaeology, ethnography, history, giving the co-ordinates of the cities and the lives and works of their famous men.

    "Seldom has any man so loved the earth."

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 28, 2005 - 04:54 am
    In the process of examining attitudes toward various religions, how does one explain THIS?

    Robby

    Jan Sand
    March 28, 2005 - 05:06 am
    This is getting way off topic, but time is one of the mysteries I find very puzzling. Astrophysicists and others describing the shape of our perceived four dimensional universe are reasonably secure in describing this shape (or at least a few possible shapes) but the sense of movement that we each perceive through time from a three dimensional point of view has never been clearly explained to me.The mystery lies not in the past or the future but the present. Exactly why we perceive time ome moment at a time and why we sense ourselves in this moment is very puzzling.

    If a five dimensional universe is posited consisting of multiple four dimensional universes in a plane then it may be possible for our consciousnesses to meander through multiple universes without being aware that they are different universes since a time line drawn across these universes would be just as consistent as straight along one of these universes (which is as artificial a constriction as the lines of latitude and longitude drawn on the Earth).

    Taking it one step further into the sixth dimension a solid may be conceived as consisting of a stack of the planes of four dimensional universes, giving even more possibilities for the perception line.

    This is as far as my visual imagination can take me although 11 universes are apparently necessary for the mathematics of the superstring theory. You can take a look at http://www.fortunecity.com/emachines/e11/86/dimens.html for more details.

    Time's arrow is evidently concerned with entropy but I have heard that all physical processes are reversible so I am not terribly well informed in this area.

    tooki
    March 28, 2005 - 05:59 am
    A tessera is a small piece of marble, glass, or other material, that is mostly square. “To tessellate” means to form the tessera into squares, like a checkerboard. "A tessellation" is a pattern made of the arrangement of these pieces. That is, a mosaic! The word tessellation is necessary to describe tiling or mosaic patterns derived from mathematics because not all mosaics are tessellations.

    During the time we are discussing the Muslims saw in mathematics a way to connect the material and spiritual world. This preoccupation with the mathematical underpinnings of the world inspired and fed their fascination for creating “infinite, decorative tilings of star shapes.”

    You can explore creating a tessellation, albeit clumsily, by
    1. Draw three circles, with the edges contingent. You do this by drawing two circles in a line, and putting the other circle on top, or bottom, so that all edges are touching.
    2. Draw within each circle a triangle.
    Continue to draw circles and triangles within your shapes.

    You can begin to see the possibilities. Or you can simply go to THIS website and get 6th grade instruction on how to do it. Tessellations are mathematics in action as art. It wasn’t as though these folks just sat down and started laying tiles.

    DanielDe
    March 28, 2005 - 06:57 am
    This is an excerpt from "A Brief History of Time" by Stephen Hawking, p. 184 - 185: "Einstein once asked the question : « How much choice did God have in constructing the universe ? » If the no boundary proposal is correct, he had no freedom at all to choose initial conditions. He would, of course, still have had the freedom to choose the laws that the universe obeyed ... Even if there is only one possible unified theory, it is just a set of rules and equations. What is it that breathes fire into the equations and makes a universe for them to describe? The usual approach of science of constructing a mathematical model cannot answer the questions of why there should be a universe for the model to describe. Why does the universe go to all the bother of existing? ... Up to now, most scientists have been too occupied with the development of new theories that describe what the universe is, to ask the question why ... However, if we do discover a complete theory, it should in time be understandable in broad principle by everyone, not just a few scientists. Then we shall, philosophers, scientists and just ordinary people, be able to take part in the discussion of the question of why it is that we and the universe exist. If we find the answer to that, it would be the ultimate triumph of human reason - for then we would know the mind of God."

    Jan Sand
    March 28, 2005 - 07:11 am
    As I said before, "why" is probably not a scientific question. "How" makes more sense from a practical point of view.

    The introduction of the notion of "bother" puts an emotional face on nature. I strongly doubt that is fitting. It has been noted that many of the physical constants seem to be precisely calibrated to permit the observed universe to exist and function without self destructing. The anthropic principle is put forth as an answer.See http://zebu.uoregon.edu/~imamura/209/mar31/anthropic.html

    DanielDe
    March 28, 2005 - 07:34 am
    Referring to the article linked to Robby’s post #699, I will not try to offer an explanation, but only this belief. As far as anyone knows in my family, we have no Jewish origin. But if someone came out of nowhere to tell me I am a Jew, I would immediately reply that have known it all the time.

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 28, 2005 - 07:50 am

    If the Muslims of this age had such a highly developed civilization, what happened to it? Why isn't it the most powerful, richest civilization today?


    ". . .then we would know the mind of God."

    Can a god have a mind? Is our concept (of a possible force we are too limited to understand) that of a big chauvinist man, with the same human qualities we have, sitting and sweating on a huge throne somewhere up in a heavenly place as he directs the whole show and what billions of people here on earth do? If that's what we think of when we think "God", then I think we've chosen the meanest, most irrational, unsympathetic old man in the universe to listen to, obey and emulate.

    Mal

    DanielDe
    March 28, 2005 - 07:59 am
    I found the article linked to Persian’s post (#687) interesting. What I understood is that the Saudis will have to move from a theocracy to a democracy. But theocracy there links the power of rule to an interpretation of the Religious text. Learning to let the people decide which interpretation should be dominant is a lesson in humility, not common to people who have been used to consuming power with the wealth that comes with it.

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    March 28, 2005 - 07:59 am
    I shuddered when I read this. The Holocaust was not enough that a new generation of racists rise up against Jews? There are only a few steps between the soccer field and the gas chambers. If nobody stops this, antisemitism could escalate again. In sports arenas hate mobs congregate to satisfy their thirst for blood.

    DanielDe
    March 28, 2005 - 08:22 am
    In his "Critique of Pure Reason", Immanuel Kant came to the conclusion that it was not possible for human reason in its purest form to experiment the presence of God. So much then for Stephen Hawkings’ wish. However, if Augustine was participating in this forum, he would say that a god that has "human qualities", even "chauvinistic", is a fallen spirit, nowhere near the Creator. His opinion on that matter can be read in his book "The City of God". Lastly, according to the Bible, knowing the mind of God is as easy as reaching out to and opening the book called the Bible. Dan

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 28, 2005 - 08:37 am

    I've read St. Augustine, and I've studied the Christian Bible (and a lot of other "holy books" that aren't Christian.)

    I'm fairly sure I know who wrote Augustine's works, but I'm not at all sure who wrote the many books of the Bible.

    If the Bible is God's word and mind and not man's depiction of what he thought a god would think and say, then what's in the Qur'an? I thought Mohammed said those verses were dictated to him by God?

    If they were, why do they differ from what's in the Bible? Why do all of these books differ? God couldn't make up his mind?

    Mal

    Jan Sand
    March 28, 2005 - 09:13 am
    Mal

    You are obviously speaking tongue in cheek. Holy books are clearly compendiums of the writings of many people evolved out of folk tales, traditional wisdoms, cultural traditions etc. and that people claim that God wrote them is, if anything, a cockamamie idea.

    If there is a God (And who am I to say one way or another?), it seems probable to me that He speaks in gravity, the speed of light, the strong and the weak force. No one violates His laws because it simply cannot be done. There is no punishment or reward involved. Merely cause and effect.

    If I violate the rules of this site I apologise. I'm not sure how else to attempt an answer.

    DanielDe
    March 28, 2005 - 09:18 am
    MAL: Are you not asking the most important question: how do we discern the truth about these matters?

    moxiect
    March 28, 2005 - 10:37 am


    As I have repeatedly stated "The Word in the Bible, Christian or otherwise", is man's interpretation.

    Question: How and Why did the Islamic world stifle their growth?

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 28, 2005 - 01:17 pm

    You boys are putting words in my mouth and my tongue in my cheek. Instead, I wish you'd find a witch doctor who would knock this recurring flu I've had for weeks right out of me.

    I think THE TRUTH depends on the culture you were raised in; the country where you live and which corner of the street you're standing on.

    P.S. I see Nature has socked it to those poor Indonesians again.

    Mal

    Jan Sand
    March 28, 2005 - 01:46 pm
    I apologise for contributing to your mouthful. Somebody once said that the truth is at the bottom of a well. Evidently some street corner somewhere has a well.

    winsum
    March 28, 2005 - 02:49 pm
    I think of sports as sublimated warfare and the Ajaxites were simply choosing up sides in a war that had nothing to do with them but was understood by all. . . .

    kiwi lady
    March 28, 2005 - 02:59 pm
    Tooki - Last year my SIL to be phoned me and told me to turn on the TV. He was very excited and wanted me to see the city of his birth. There was a documentary about Istanbul and part of the documentary dealt with the Mosaics in the Mosques. It is true that the patterns are very symetrical but the colours also are beautiful. One of the Mosques was done in all blue and white mosaics. Cenk said the Mosque was very ancient. Part of the University in Istanbul is also very ancient and beautiful. Cenk attended the University there.

    Carolyn

    Justin
    March 28, 2005 - 04:12 pm
    God is a human devised concept made in man's image. I see four reasons for the persistence of the idea of God. There may be more but these standout in my mind.

    1. Beginning with the Sumerians and continuing through the present US administration government has found it beneficial to use the idea of God to control it's constituency.

    2. There is a priesthood that earns it's bread by perpetuating the idea of God and the "truthfulness" of that message.

    3. Historically a large portion of the world's population has been uneducated and therefore susceptible to superstition as a means for allaying fear in the face uncertainty.about natural phenomena.( including death)

    4. The Bible and the Qur"an are simply tools used by the clergy to help perpetuate the idea of God.

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 28, 2005 - 04:39 pm
    Some of you use powerful declarative sentences and thereby are coming "perilously" close to stating your own beliefs. Diplomatic phrases such as "in my opinion" and "it is possible that" and so on make it easier for the participant who disagrees. Caution, please!

    Two suggestions to no participant in particular:'

    1 -- Keep in mind that not all of us (certainly not myself) is highly trained in mathematics or other esoteric disciplines. A few sentences on elementary school level might be helpful.
    2 -- Please -- PLEASE -- break up your postings into small paragraphs, not only for easier reading, but also for easier digesting.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 28, 2005 - 04:46 pm
    When I arrived home this evening, there were 17 postings that had been made in the last 12 hour period. To my knowledge, no other discussion group in SN even approaches such activity. Anyone who goes 24 hours without checking into "The Story of Civilization" finds himself way behind time.

    Robby

    kiwi lady
    March 28, 2005 - 05:08 pm
    Robby I think the Michigan discussion would beat that record! Its a place where a lot of us hang out for just a bit of fellowship and support as well as light conversation. However this disussion probably consistently has the highest volume of posts in Books and Lit.

    carolyn

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 28, 2005 - 06:14 pm
    "In this as in the preceding age the Moslems produced the leading physicians of Asia, Africa, and Europe.

    "They excelled expecially in ophthalmology, perhaps because eye diseases were so prevalent in the Near East. There, as elsewhere, medicine was paid most to cure, least to prevent.

    "Operations for cataract were numerous . Khalifah ibn-abi'l-Mahasin of Aleppo (1256) was so confident of his skill that he operated for cataract on a one-eyed man. Ibn Baitar's Kitab al-Jami made medicinal-botanical history. It listed 1400 plants, foods, and drugs, 300 of them new -- analyzed their chemical constitution and healing power -- and added acute observations on their use in therapy.

    "But the greatest name in this acme of Moslem medicine is Abu Marwan ibn Zuhr (1091-1162) of Seville, known to the European medical world as Avenzoar.

    "He was the third in six generations of famous physicians, all of one family line, and each at the top of his profession. His Kitab al-Tasir, or Book of Simplification on Therapeutics and Diet, was written at the request of his friend Avertoes, who (himself the greatest philosopher of the age) considered him the greatest physician since Galen.

    "Ibn Zuhr's forte was clinical description. He left classical analyses of mediastinal tumors, pericarditis, intestinal tuberculosis, and pharyngeal paralysis.

    "Translations of the Tasir into Hebrew and Latin deeply influenced European medicine."

    Physicians of today write much of their "jargon" in Latin phrases but I wonder if in medical school they are taught how much they owe to the Islamic world.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 28, 2005 - 06:33 pm
    Even though I continue Durant's text regarding Islam, there is so much going on in America these days under the heading of Religion, that it cannot be ignored as we discuss this volume entitled "The Age of Faith." It is interesting that in this ARTICLE, the defense attorney speaks of God's word in the Bible as being "outside the law" whereas others across the nation speak of God's word as being the Law.

    Robby

    Persian
    March 28, 2005 - 06:56 pm
    It's not just across the Nation, ROBBY, but around the world. It's unusual that articles on Islam appear in our local Charlotte Observer newspaper on consecutive days. I posted the earlier one about how a younger generation of Muslims in Saudi Arabia is affecting the society.

    Here is today's (see link below), highlighting another level of Islamic voices - an "awakening" if you will) as moderate Muslims in Spain speak out through a religious fatwa about the wrongfulness of al-Qaida using Islam as its shield for terrorist acts against innocents.

    My personal reaction when I read the article was "FINALLY!" Perhaps now other segments of the global Islamc societies will also be encouraged to speak out.

    http://www.charlotte.com/mld/observer/news/11247319.htm

    kiwi lady
    March 28, 2005 - 07:06 pm
    My sister who is not religious at all - she has never attended church- insists that our law is based on the ten commandments and should stay that way. She is also annoyed about Bible in schools being removed from most schools. I am very surprised at this but reading between the lines believe that a lot of people believe our culture is being threatened by outside influence from other religions other than Christianity. Such people believe that Christianity is our culture more than our religion. I think residents of nations founded on European and British settlement are feeling like their heritage is being stolen from them by alien cultures.

    I personally would not want to push my culture if I decided to emigrate to another country such as a Muslim country. I should have to keep my culture within my own home and abide with the culture of the nation outside the home. I would not demand that the religion of that country be taken out of schools if the practice of the religion in schools was voluntary as it was here for many years. Those who did not want the half hour religious instruction per week could go to another classroom and continue their school work. The decision whether to have bible in schools should be by democratic vote. If the majority wish it I see no reason why voluntary instruction should not be allowed for the half hour per week I had as a child in school.

    Many schools here are bringing in values programs to replace religious instruction as there is a demand for it. Many parents believe values we got from the church are disappearing to the detriment of our society. The schools who offer values programs have big waiting lists for enrollments and people are moving into the these school zones by choice.

    I do not believe that Govt legislation should be driven by the Church but by democratic process. However I do believe that Communities also by democratic process should be allowed to decide the ethics in their schools. Its the vocal minority that screams for Political correctness not the majority from the experiences I have had in the community.

    winsum
    March 28, 2005 - 07:30 pm
    "I do not believe that Govt legislation should be driven by the Church but by democratic process'

    . Here anything that has to do with religion must not be sponsored by the govt. Our constitution separates religion from it. This after the Pilgrims and others had suffered from the opposite condition was made a strong part of the LAW OF OUR LAND. . . . Claire

    Jan Sand
    March 28, 2005 - 08:01 pm
    In dealing with a category rife with superstition and strong attitudes that contradict logic and scientific principles it is almost impossible to not make rather strong statements as to the rationality of religious beliefs.

    Secular law may have many moral principles that parallel laws proclaimed in religion and may even be conceived as a result of knowledge and respect for the regulations of religion but the basis of these laws should, in a secular state, always be the concerned with the effect of these laws on interpersonal relationships of an ongoing society, never on supposed proclamations of religious authority derived from the supposition that they were the demands of an assumed superbeing.

    What is most objectionable to me in many current Muslim societies is the violent suppression of even the slightest doubt and criticism of religiously derived social regulations as if social order is so fragile that total chaos would result if doubts were permitted.

    Secular societies, it seems to me, by providing the means for reconsideration of social regulations on the basis of how they affect society, are inherently sturdier and permit the plastic modifications of society as it is necessary in a continuously changing world.

    tooki
    March 28, 2005 - 08:28 pm
    The Institute for the Secularisation of Islamic Societyhas been formed to promote democratic, secular ideals within Islamic societies.

    It has a mission and purpose statement that sounds good. It seems to be a little short on ideas for realization of its purposes.

    Justin
    March 28, 2005 - 09:40 pm
    Yes, Mahlia; I too have wondered whether all those "decent" Muslims you have been telling us about were ever going to take a public position against the excesses of al Quaida or the Wahabi extremists. Finally, the criticism comes.At last. I would like to think the critics represent a large segment of the Muslim population but I fear they do not. Still, the criticism is welcome.

    Jan Sand
    March 28, 2005 - 09:42 pm
    It is worthwhile to comprehend the rise of religious extremism in the USA as a counterpart to the situation in the Muslim world. The damage is obvious in Muslim society to the progress of intellectual thought. Paul Krugman in todays NY Times presents the danger to American society. See http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/29/opinion/29krugman.html

    DanielDe
    March 28, 2005 - 10:55 pm
    The introduction "secular" principles in the government of Islamic countries would probably tend to make them more peaceful and friendly. The relative decline of Islamic civilization may be attributed to the fact that its theocratic component finally appeared to have been a devise to monopolise political power in a deceiving manner. The reaction of Enlightenment philosophers towards Christianity probably was directed against the Catholic Church and its effort to install a theocracy, rather than Christianity itself. I too rejected the theocratic government of that Church on my life. And Immanuel Kant, a great philosopher of the Enlightenment, was a Christian believer.

    In America, it used to be an obligation for a candidate to the Bar Association, to master the Pentateuch (the first five books of the Bible) in order to be accepted as a lawyer. The Bible was for a long time recognized as a source of Law. So there is nothing new about looking for inspiration for what is right or wrong in that book. Dan

    DanielDe
    March 28, 2005 - 11:06 pm
    There are enemies of Judeo-Christian values, not because these values are a menace to society, but rather because they are too good at preserving the freedom of humanity. Antonio Gramsci, in the early part of the 20th Century, observed that the greatest enemy to international communism was the system of Judeo-Christian values. He had many followers that eventually organized their attacks on those values from Columbia University in the United States in the early 50's. It started off with what they called "The Critical Theory". Their goal was to destroy all values such as capitalism, authority, the family, morality, tradition, sexual restraint ... to name but a few. The strategy was to infiltrate all decision making levels of education, government and media and proceed to gradualy turn the values around.

    Of course, the totalitarianism that we need to be weary of is not communism any more, but a much more subtle one; one that nullifies the sense of responsibility of citizens towards their governments. That process ends up concentrating power into a very few hands. It manifests itself in the diminishing rate of voters in official elections. It is happening here in Switzerland. Many elections nowadays are decided by a voting population that represents less than 50% of the population. Dan

    DanielDe
    March 29, 2005 - 12:05 am
    One example of the way the attacks on values operated was the old sitcom "Bewitched". Probably everyone here remembers that comedy. I used to love watching it as a kid. The scenario involved mainly Samantha, the lovely housewife, her husband Darrin and Endora, the mother in law. The comedy was about the farcical situations in which Darrin would find himself because of some disorder in the witchcraft world in which he was caught - always against his will - and the way the superpowers of his wife would come to the rescue. The highest power undisputedly rested with the Mother in law who had the final authority on everything; she was respectful of her daughter's wishes but disdainful of anything concerning her husband. In the disguise of a joke, the normal social family headship was depicted as a powerless lame being subjected to the twisted vagaries of his mother in law. I do not mean to be disrespectful of mother’s in law. But, under the disguise of a normal suburban family setting, the proper order of family was being dealt a severe blow ... and I used to love that. Little did I know at the time.

    The process has developed in many other ways and directions. Dan

    Jan Sand
    March 29, 2005 - 12:09 am
    The US Government was originally set up to prevent any one element of the government from taking total control. The executive, the judiciary and the legislative branches of the government act as checks upon the absolute power of each. Governments that derive their power from a divine source have no countervailing opposition that can oppose a divine being.

    One cannot argue against God which is why religion is so corrosive to rationality. Communism also suppressed any opposition and it destroyed itself through its own internal incapabilities. The Muslim world also suffers from a cohesive rational effective opposition to the religious absolutes proffered by religious leaders and thereby suffers.

    The current US administration is striving rather successfully to infiltrate all branches of government and the Democratic Party is offering very little resistance. The lack of a cohesive opposition is very apparent and probably contributes greatly to the lack of voter interest in a government that exhibits open corruption at all levels. The tragedy of 9-11 was a wonderful gift to a government that seems to be failing in all its policies and its use of religion to suppress much of creative science is characteristic of a dangerous trend.

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 29, 2005 - 12:33 am

    DANIEL, the messages you post are your personal opinions, which are not necessarily those of the rest of us. It might be a good idea if you put such a qualifier on what you say.

    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 29, 2005 - 12:50 am
    What's going on? Intimidation in the name of God

    DanielDe
    March 29, 2005 - 12:58 am
    MAL: I agree that my reading of "Bewitched" is a personal view. I apologize for not mentioning it clearly. About Antonio Gramsci, Patrick Buchanan published those facts in his book "The Death of the West". Again, I should have mentionned that. There are many other sources on Gramsci.

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 29, 2005 - 01:22 am
    Wearing their beliefs on their chests

    Bubble
    March 29, 2005 - 01:36 am
    Mal, I have felt that there is a huge change of atmosphere in the US since 1999 when I joined more actively the web community. I am thinking of sites with Bulletin Boards that I used to visit regularly and which showed an inspirational message only once in a while. At present the posts cover 90% of what is there. A few are three pages long.I used to think it was cute. Now it causes over saturation.

    Some people's sent mails are only that sort of forwarding, which in my eyes is very sad. They have nothing personal to contribute?

    I still hope I am wrong in my perception.

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 29, 2005 - 04:03 am
    We have spoken of extremism within both the Islamic and Christian community. Is there also extremism within the JEWISH COMMUNITY?

    In any event, what is wrong with so-called "extremism?" What is wrong with thinking for oneself and being apart from mainstream thinking? Wasn't the United States created by people who thought "differently" and who fought on the battlefield to protect that difference? Are the rest of us just sheep who want to continue the status quo?

    Robby

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    March 29, 2005 - 04:06 am
    About T shirts with a statement in the link #737, I don't see anything different than everything you read on T shirts everywhere. A girl had "Juicy" printed on the derrière of her jeans. A T shirt has "I love Virginia" with a big red heart. So what? Isn't it better than preaching on a soap box? If you can't say it, then print it on a T shirt for everybody to read as you are walking. The dictates of fashion become newsTshirts.

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 29, 2005 - 05:28 am

    Considering the volatility of the issue and what's led up to it, I think those Jews who protest what's going to happen in Gaza are playing with fire.



    ELOISE, Juicy Couture is a division of a women's clothing manufacturer in the United States. Juicy is the brand name.

    "I heart Virginia" on a tee shirt is a whole lot different from "Jesus is my homeboy" splashed all over the front of a tee shirt, in my estimation. I don't want to see in-your-face advertising of any religion anywhere.

    There were so many different religions in my hometown when I was growing up that if even one had been flaunted around like this it would have led to a lot of fistfights.



    BUBBLE, I am fed up with Christian religious messages on message boards. You're being kind when you say they're inspirational. And I'm very tired of the unsolicited emails that are sent out. Several times I've received emails that say, "Pay your bills the Christian way." It seems to me as if a certain body of Christians in this country have decided they're better than anyone else, and they're going to cram their religion down people's throats whether they like it or not. What they believe and what I believe are private, personal things. Why don't they keep it that way?.

    Maybe I'll retaliate by building some web pages advertising the "Holy Spinach Church", and proselytize about how you're guaranteed to get to heaven if you eat spinach twice a day. After all, Popeye did, didn't he?

    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 29, 2005 - 05:50 am

    I am posting the following because this discussion appears to be turning into a Conversational Discussion like the International Café, instead of the book discussion about Will and Ariel Durant's Story of Civilization.that it's supposed to be.

    Avenzoar

    Muslim Scientists

    Bubble
    March 29, 2005 - 07:18 am
    about post #739. Last week on my return from Jerusalem, we were stuck endlessly in a traffic jam on the main intertown highway, at peak hour: a demonstration by those settlers protesting their resettlement was in full swing with burning tires and lots of chanting of slogans.

    It is volatile indeed and I fear will not end peacefully. So was the retreat from Yamit in Sinai, when the settlers chained themselves on their balconies railings and were removed forcibly by the army before those houses were blown up to ruins. It sounds worse today.

    tooki
    March 29, 2005 - 07:33 am
    were improved by the Moslems; the Crusaders saw such wheels raising water from the Orontes, and introduced them into Germany.”

    I think I’ll keep talking about Durant if no one minds? There is much to be learned in Durant that impacts discussions of “faith.” For example, technological devices like water wheels can be means for winning men’s minds and souls. It appears that furnishing information and low technology devices such as water wheels, irrigation techniques, and other soil conservation techniques to war and famine devastated countries does much to improve the people’s receptivity to democratic ideals.

    Water wheels are still used in Germany and many other countries. A friend of mind inherited the old, very old, family farm in Germany. Much money was required to repair the water wheel, build about the 17th century, and still grinding the local farm wheat.

    Here is a view of An Old Ottomen Water Wheel In Syria

    There are two kinds of water wheels: overshot and undershot. In one the water spills OVER the top to generate power; in the other the water spills DOWN into the buckets.

    Jan Sand
    March 29, 2005 - 07:54 am
    The water wheel is the basis of modern hydroelectric power although it is more in the form of a turbine today.

    See http://users.owt.com/chubbard/gcdam/html/hydro.html

    winsum
    March 29, 2005 - 11:02 am
    My kids bought seven acres in BC with a stream running through which now gives them a large part of their electrical power due to a home built hydro electric system A tree fell on it during a storm and required heavy duty sawing and lifting before access to the energy was restored. . . . an aside I know but life goes on pretty much as it always has doesn't it. . . . Claire

    Jan Sand
    March 29, 2005 - 01:01 pm
    If you would like to know what is wrong with Jewish extremism, read this.

    http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/9511/rabin/

    3kings
    March 29, 2005 - 02:19 pm
    ROBBY you write :- In any event, what is wrong with so-called "extremism?" What is wrong with thinking for oneself and being apart from mainstream thinking? Wasn't the United States created by people who thought "differently" and who fought on the battlefield to protect that difference? Are the rest of us just sheep who want to continue the status quo?

    I can only say that 'Extremism' is not, as you suggest, about thinking differently, or even about thinking at all. Extremists are persons who seek to seize power by the use ( usually) of military might, and imposing their own world view on the populace.

    Their behaviour is the antithesis of Democracy and even Christianity.

    You once ( tongue in cheek, I suspect ) asked 'What is wrong about Might is Right ?" Perhaps your latest query is in the same vein ?

    If so, please excuse my taking the bait, hook line and sinker ! LOL ++ Trevor

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 29, 2005 - 02:40 pm
    Of course I throw out the bait. That is what Discussion Leaders do! In that way I can go to work in the morning and let you folks throw it back and forth all day without my having to be present.

    Being a DL is a cinch. Anyone want to take over?

    Robby

    Shasta Sills
    March 29, 2005 - 02:43 pm
    I was really impressed that the Muslims produced all those brilliant doctors until I read about some of their treatments. (Post #742) It's probably true that they knew how to use various plants that we no longer know anything about, but some of the plants they were using are common plants that we do know about, and they have no medicinal value whatsoever.

    I was fascinated by Avenzoar's treatment of a stomach tumor. He told the patient to break his waterjug and he would get well. It turned out the jug had a frog in it, and maybe this was contaminating his drinking water. But how did Avenzoar know there was a frog in the jug? Stories like this make you wonder what kind of medicine those doctors were really practicing.

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 29, 2005 - 02:50 pm
    "Islam led the world also in the equipment and competence of its hospitals.

    "One founded by Nur-ud-din at Damascus in 1160 gave free treatment and drugs during three centuries. For 267 years, we are told, its fires were never extinguished.

    "Ibn Jubayr, coming to Baghdad in 1184, marveled at the great Bimaristan Adadi, a hospital rising like some royal palace along the banks of the Tigris. Here food and drugs were given to the patients without charge.

    "In Cairo, in 1285, Sultan Qalaun began the Maristan al-Mansur, the greatest hospital of the Middle Ages. Within a spacious quadrangular enclosure four buildings rose around a courtyard adorned with arcades and cooled with fountains and brooks.

    "There were separate wards for diverse diseases and for convalescents -- laboratories, a dispensary, out-patient clinics, diet kitchens, baths, a library, a chapel, a lecture hall, and particularly pleasant accommodations for the insane.

    "Treatment was given gratis to men and women, rich and poor, slave and free. A sum of money was disbursed to each convalescent on his departure, so that he need not at once return to work. The sleepless were provided with soft music, professional story-tellers, and perhaps books of history.

    "Asylums for the care of the insane existed in all the major cities of Islam."

    I'm sure there will be much discussion here.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 29, 2005 - 03:16 pm

    History of Medicine in Mesopotamia and Iran

    winsum
    March 29, 2005 - 03:27 pm
    from the washington post. . . .

    not a picnic after all

    Claire

    kiwi lady
    March 29, 2005 - 03:31 pm
    There is sceptism especially in the US about herbal medicines etc. I have been a fan of alternative methods of medicine ever since we managed to clean out my husbands veins with the Pritkin diet. It really worked! No surgery! just common sense, discipline and dedication. He did not need any BP meds after we completed the steps of the diet and his heart was pronounced that of a teenager by doctors. We had a Chinese doctor who did traditional Medicine as well as conventional medicine. He was doing Acupuncture long before our Govt recognised it as a legitimate pain reliever etc.

    Many of our manufactured medicines are synthetic reproductions of herbal medicines - people forget this.

    Today we want the quick fix without giving up unhealthy eating habits etc. We also do not regard medicine as vocation rather its all about money. Its dispensed unequally sometimes it comes to this : if you have money you live if you have none you die.

    The hospital system mentioned in Robbys post was amazing.

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 29, 2005 - 03:49 pm
    In the 12th Century in Baghdad, food and drugs were given without charge. Here is the SITUATION IN THE 21st CENTURY in the Western world.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 29, 2005 - 05:40 pm
    Here are some interesting items taken from a book on ISLAMIC MEDICINE.

    Robby

    Justin
    March 29, 2005 - 06:38 pm
    What is Islamic Medicine? Is it medicine practiced on Muslims? Is it medicine practiced by a muslim? Does it include treatments that are peculiar to Islam? Does it rely on the Qur'an to supply treatments? I would be fearful to visit a doctor who practiced Islamic medicine. I am not aware of a medicine called Jewish medicine or Catholic Medicine or Evangelical medicine. Although I am aware that Catholic physicians are limited in the advice they may give in reproductive disorders.Perhaps,one could call those doctors who adhere to the rules of the Church as practitioners of Catholic medicine.Personally, I prefer a man who practices medicine without a religious adjective. I also prefer a man who adheres to his own specialty when giving advice.

    Fifi le Beau
    March 29, 2005 - 07:31 pm
    The Arabic physicians as one historian commented, "Certainly they contributed no original novel ideas to develop Hipppocratic thought, but in a period of unrest (the dark ages) they were 'preservers' of knowledge. This quote is from Avenzohr's bio.....

    The medical and philosophical concept of Avenzoar, as it happens with other Arab physicians, comes from the Galen's theories

    The great library at Pergamon held the works of the Greeks and the Hippocratic writings along with Galens. Pergamon was sacked by the Arabs in the 8th century AD. The works taken from Pergamon and other city states was the basis of all Arab science. Avenzohr says in his biography that Galen was the greatest physican. Avenzohr was an observerer but everything he wrote about medicine he took from Galen and earlier Greek writing.

    As for Sultan Qalaun and his hospital that Durant describes so vividly, I could find no trace. His mosque and mausoleum still stand and of course needs renovation, but what happened to the hospital. I looked at dozens of muslim websites and they all cite Durant as the source. I don't have the book now, but would like to know Durants source.

    Robby's link says 'Islamic medicine', but the book the writer of that article cites calls it 'Arabic medicine'. The muslims call everything 'Islamic', and of course Islam had nothing to do with the work these people are citing. Islam is a religion, it is not a science, math, medicine, art, music, or anything else that Mohammed didn't know about, and that is just about everything excepting rape and murder of which the muslims left a fine detailed record.

    Fifi

    Fifi le Beau
    March 29, 2005 - 07:43 pm
    Justin, we were writing at the same time, and as usual you said it with more grace than I did, but this is about the third time I have written on the use of the term "Islamic" to describe everything from how to use the bathroom to how to treat a boil, and it has become an irritant to me, but I will keep writing about it until we get out of Islam or I run afoul of the leader.

    Fifi

    tooki
    March 29, 2005 - 08:26 pm
    I thought the description of Moslem hospitals to be a bit over the top. Could the good doctors and the society be inclined to be so generous, merciful, and charming to their poor charges? The hospital information is footnoted as number 85 in Chapter 12. It was no help because I didn’t recognize any of the names. Why would I?

    But I did find the following information in “The Oxford Medical School Gazette," Volume 54, No. 1, 2003.

    “The hospital was one of the great achievements of medieval Islamic society. One of the reasons was the Islamic teaching that the rich should provide for the poor and the healthy should look after the sick. Wealthy people saw it as their responsibility to care for the less fortunate; many left money when they died to pay for hospitals. Many Muslim rulers contributed by setting up hospitals in cities all over the Islamic world.

    It is generally regarded that medicine in the Muslim world began to decline around the twelfth century. The reasons are complex, but some contributory factors include that, in 1258, Baghdad fell to Mongol invaders. Patronage and the accompanying prestige enjoyed by leading physicians declined. In the middle of the 14th century, the Great Plague hit the Islamic world. Powerful earthquakes also caused havoc. A reorientation of trade routes occurred and commercial paths through the Muslim world were no longer of major importance.”

    At the time, 12th century, that Baghdad had 60 hospitals, London was just building its first. I guess I’ll believe the “Oxford Medical School Gazette.”

    Justin
    March 29, 2005 - 09:21 pm
    Tooki: Are you sure the Medical Gazzette is not quoting Durant?

    Justin
    March 29, 2005 - 09:38 pm
    France on the other hand had several hospitals in the 12th century. The Charter house of Champmol is only one of many. The Crusader knights/monks called hospitalers may have brought hospitals to the middle east as early as the late 11th century.

    Jan Sand
    March 30, 2005 - 12:50 am
    Undoubtedly there are many traditional remedies and procedures that have beneficial effects and even cures but medicine has not really made much effective strides until basic understanding of causes and effects have been understood. The functions of the various body parts was not even begun to be well understood until somewhere in the middle of the 19th century.

    It was not until 1628 that Harvey demonstrated the circulation of blood. For a long time the brain was considered merely an organ to cool the blood. Around 1700 Leeuwenhoek described micro-organisms but it was not until the middle 1800's that Pasteur made the connection of bacteria to infective disease. And it was the discovery by the Germans of the first sulpha drugs in the 1930's that initiated the effective control of diseases through anti-biotics, although Jenner, in the middle 1800's initiated vaccination as a preventative. It was also in the middle 1800's that anaesthesia was introduced into surgery for effective and painless operations.

    All of these procedures and remedies are fundamental to effective medicine and most surely had nothing to do with religion.

    At best the Muslim civilization at its height established social concerns for the ailing and deprived and it seems that modern social systems, although they have progressed well since the middle ages, have still a good distance to cover for effective control of diseases and general health care whether or not the technical capabilities exist. It is estimated that, within the USA alone, around 100,000 people die annually from medical mistakes and this is within a relatively well organized medical system. The death toll in a system of primitive medicine must have been appalling.

    The current policies within the US government, especially concerning sexual diseases, through religious inhibitions, are having a negative effect on the control of diseases with tragic results.

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 30, 2005 - 02:55 am
    "Amid these advances of science the old orthodoxy fought to keep the loyalty of the educated classes.

    "The conflict between religion and science led many to skepticism, some to open atheism. Al-Ghazali divided Moslem thinkers into three groups -- theists, deists or naturalists, and materialists -- and denounced all three groups alike as infidels.

    "The theists accepted God and immorality, but denied creation and the resurrection of the body, and called heaven and hell spiritual conditions only.

    "The deists acknowledged a deity but rejected immortality, and viewed the world as a self-operating machine.

    "The materialists completely rejected the idea of God.

    "A semi-organized movement, the Dahriyya, professed a frank agnosticism. Several of these doubting Thomases lost their heads to the executioner.

    "Said Isbahan ibn Qara to a pious faster during Ramaden:-'You torment yourself for nothing. Man is like a seed of grain that sprouts and grows up and is then mowed down to perish forever. Eat and drink!'

    "It was in rection against such skepticism that Mohammedanism produced its greatest theologian, the Augustine and the Kant of Islam.

    "Abn Hamid al-Ghazali was born at Tus in 1058, lost his father early, and was reared by a Sufi friend. He studied law, theology, and philosophy. At thirty-three he was appointed to the chair of law at the Nizamiya College in Baghdad. Soon all Islam acclaimed his eloquence, erudition, and dialectical skill.

    "After four years of this glory he was laid low by a mysterious disease. Appetite and digestion failed, paralysis of the tongue occasionally distorted his speech, and his mind began to break down. A wise physician diagnosed his case as mental in origin.

    "In truth, as al-Ghazali later confessed in his remarkable autobiography, he had lost belief in the capacity of reason to sanction the Mohammedan faith. The hypocrisy of his orthodox teaching had become unberable.

    "In 1094 he left Baghdad, ostensibly on a pilgrimage to Mecca. Actually he went into seclusion, seeking silence, contemplation, and peace. Unable to find in science the support he sought for his crumbling faith, he turned from the outer to the internal world. There, he thought, he found a direct and immaterial reality which offered a firm basis for belief in a spiritual universe.

    "He subjected sensation -- on which materialism seemed to rest, to critical scrutiny -- accused the senses of making the stars appear small when, to be so visible from afar, they must be vastly larger than the earth -- and concluded from a hundred such examples tht sensation by itself could be no certain test of truth. Reason was higher and corrected one sense with another but in the end it too rested on sensation. Perhaps there was in man a form of knowledge, a guide to truth, surer than reason?

    "Al-Ghazali felt that he had found this in the introspective meditation of the mystic. The Sufi came closer than the philosopher to the hidden core of reality.

    "The highest knowledge lay in gazing upon the miracle of mind until God appeared within the self and the self itself disappeared in the vision of an all-absorbing One."

    Your comments, please? And let us keep in mind that Durant is a historian, not a theologian, and that we are here to discuss and react to history, not to profess our particular religious belief.

    Robby

    Jan Sand
    March 30, 2005 - 03:12 am
    Bertrand Russell once commented that the truth has only one virtue. It does not go away. Al Ghazali evidently sought the truth but the tools were limited and he finally succumbed to whatever mental constructions he could fabricate from his current beliefs. But the struggle of the unconstricted mind continues to today wherein the bonds of unsubstantiated suppositions continuously drag on the attempts to gain an unfettered mind.

    When humanity can view itself without prejudice as an object acting within a universe that places democratic restrictions upon both its living and non-living constituents then perhaps real progress can be made.

    tooki
    March 30, 2005 - 05:59 am
    has its roots and centre in mystical states of consciousness.” William James in “The Varieties of Religious Experience.”

    For me, mystical experiences come in a range from 1 to 10.

    One might be something as simple and lovely as looking up at a spring sun through a newly budding tree, a tree just beginning to leaf out, and feeling a sense of wonderment at yet another new beginning...

    The experiences intensify as one goes up the scale. Five might be holding your new baby in your arms for the first time and experiencing incredible awe at new life.

    Eight might be sitting quietly on a park bench on a warm, spring day, musing over life’s experiences, and finding increasing solace in an interesting inner peace.

    Ten might be experiencing the self sort of quieting down and a vast peace setting..

    All my states and stages of mystic experiences are accompanied by a sense of wonder. What about yours? Do you call them “mystic experiences?” Or what do you call them?

    James’ full comments are HERE

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 30, 2005 - 06:37 am
    The God of the Heart by Dr. Javad Nurbakhsh

    Ever since we have given up our being for the heart,
    We've been strangers to the self and acquainted with the heart.



    While the Ka'ba is the focus of the eyes of the world,
    That Ka'ba of retreat, the heart, is our focus.



    We saw the heart was the sanctum of the glory of the Beloved;
    So we ejected all that was not the Friend from the space of the heart.



    This heart is not that organ which beats in the cage of the breast;
    This heart is the Magnificent Throne, the seat of the God of the Heart.



    In the way of the heart lovers have foundered in blood;
    Full many a wretched soul has been sacrificed for the heart.



    In the trap of lust you are not aware of the heart;
    In the sky of self you can't see the phoenix of the heart.



    As soon as Nurbakhsh left the lane of 'I and you',
    He found tranquility in the sanctum of the glorious heart.
    Dr. Nurbakhsh was born in Kerman, Iran. He attended medical school at the University of Tehran and received his medical doctor diploma in 1952. In 1962, he was invited to undertake post-graduate studies at the Sorbonne in Paris. He then returned to Tehran where he completed his studies in psychiatry and later became professor and Head of the Department of Psychiatry at the Tehran University until his retirement in 1977.

    Dr. Nurbakhsh was initiated into the Nimatullahi Sufi Path at age 16. At age 20 he was appointed by his master, Munis 'Ali Shah, to the position of Shaikh (spiritual director), and after the death of Munis became Master of the Nimatullahi Order. He was then 26 years old.


    Source:

    What is Sufism?

    Jan Sand
    March 30, 2005 - 07:00 am
    Since the question has been posed I feel I have permission to answer. I am an artist and a designer and have had moments where I have had intense focus upon the inter-relationshps of form amd color that is abundantly present in almost any visual experience, whether it is in natural surroundings or in the center of urban construction.

    There is fascination and a sense of order in the tight organization involved in organic order and strangely also in random collections of the most artificial unrelated objects and the order is obtainable in the mind's capability to sense and appreciate these relationships.

    In none of them do I detect anything mystical but they are all delightful and instructive.

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    March 30, 2005 - 08:07 am
    Oui Mal, the heart has reasons that reason does not know. I love that poem.

    Jan, I am a wanabe artist and a wanabe many other things too, but at this stage of my life, just to be me is all I can do, but in color and form in nature and in art, I see the mystical. We are all different fortunately.

    Éloïse

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 30, 2005 - 08:17 am

    The poem, "The God of the Heart", by Dr. Javad Nurbakhsh is one of his defnitions of Sufism.

    Sufism, like so many other religions we've discussed, seems to maintain that the human self and the package it comes in must be completely discarded if perfection is to be achieved.

    What is it about people that makes them think to be alive and human is such a hateful thing? I don't get it. I really, really don't.

    Mal

    Fifi le Beau
    March 30, 2005 - 08:55 am
    Sufism..........The Hindus did it better, and Buddha explained it so much better than anything presented so far by the Sufis.

    Since the muslim hordes had been raiding India, they are sure to have been exposed to their beliefs which certainly included a search for perfection in 'being' that excluded the world.

    If everyone took this 'escape' route there would be no shelter, food, clothing or the necessities of living. A woman with a child could never do this or the species would die out. This is a concoction of man, who wants a free pass to idle away his time, and let others do the necessary work for survival.

    The heart has no connection to feelings of jealousy or 'mysticism'. All that is done in the brain, by the brain, for those who don't want to face life. We read of men in the "Age of Faith" mutilating themselves to stop natural sexual urges generally regulated by hormones, and not the heart.

    They speak of 'truth' and 'reality', but those words are the opposite of what they say they are seeking. In order to achieve that state the brain would have to stop functioning, and the only way to do that is to destroy the brain.

    Here we have man again criticizing the very god creator they profess to believe in. They don't like the way man has been made to have to scratch and dig to survive. They want to be like the gods they have created in their mind.

    Fifi

    HubertPaul
    March 30, 2005 - 10:59 am
     
    I sent my soul through the Invisible 
    Some letter of that after-life to spell, 
    And by and by my soul returned to me 
    And answered,”I myself am Heaven and Hell.” 
    
    Omar Khayyam

    Scrawler
    March 30, 2005 - 11:38 am
    I have suffered for many years with severe headaches, but it wasn't until I tried alternative medicines and meditation that I felt any relief from my pain. I'm living proof that alternative medicines do work.

    winsum
    March 30, 2005 - 12:21 pm
    seems to be the driving force in all these religious beliefs. . . .I can agree with that. . . . Claire

    Fifi le Beau
    March 30, 2005 - 01:57 pm
    Omar Khayyam....... considering where he lived, it sounds very like an opium trip or some hashish.

    Come to think about it, that may have been how the concept of heaven and hell came about in the first place.

    Fifi

    Justin
    March 30, 2005 - 01:57 pm
    I was disappointed when I read that al Ghazali turned to Sufism when he had recognized the inability of his reason to support orthodox Islam. He,of course, had not lost belief in Allah. He had only questioned his ability to connect with Allah through Islam. So he threw out the trappings of religion and adopted the deprived manner of the Sufist. His objective, obviously, was to connect with Allah.

    The monks in Catholicism tried the same approach. The ancient Anchorites also tried this approach as well. I remember the painful experience of Thais the courtesan who fell under the spell of an anchorite. She died in misery.

    Deprivation and denial of the natural functions of life nulifies the very mechanism that sustains life. It is sex and man's interest in sex that produces the next generation. Sufism and the Christian denial of the benefits of sex are inhuman and nihilist. If denial brings one closer to Allah, Allah is not worth reaching for Allah has become an end and not a beginning.

    Sunknow
    March 30, 2005 - 02:06 pm
    Mal - My remarks are a little out of contex with your Sufism post, but I'll reply to your question: "What is it about people that makes them think to be alive and human is such a hateful thing? I don't get it. I really, really don't."

    Nor do I..!

    One year ago today, I got up and went to the hospital at 7:30 a.m. and had brain surgery. An Aneurysm had been discovered, and I opted to have it taken care of. The year before that, a 42 yr. old dau-in-law on Sunday morning on the way to church out in Calif, had a sudden dreadful headache. She asked to be taken home, and the moments later, said take me to the hospital.

    That's the last thing she ever said. She died a couple of hours later, with a massive Aneurysm that she knew nothing about. Because of this occurrence, I insisted on surgery.

    I never doubted the wonderful outcome, and I was home in less than a week, without ever having a headache, but it took a while for the scar to heal.

    Who gets the credit for this remarkable event? I live in the Bible Belt, and numerous churches of various beliefs, in my city, offered prayers in my behalf. Did that have anything at all to do with my recovery? Absolutely!

    I had the finest team of Neurosurgeons in this part of the country. They take credit for their own deeds. Did they have anything to do with my recovery? Absolutely!

    As far as I'm concerned, Science and Faith can both be credited.

    Yes, to be "alive and human" is a WONDERFUL thing.

    I rejoice!

    Sun

    Justin
    March 30, 2005 - 04:34 pm
    I am happy you, Sun, are pleased to be alive and well. But your response, I think, is not quite what Mal had in mind. Sufism, is an extremism as is monastacism in which the functions of the body are denied to bring one closer to a supreme being. The actions of the Sufist and other clericals are negative and oppose life and well being in humans.

    One other thought. I give you credit, as well as the neurosurgeons for recognizing the immediacy of your need and doing something about it.

    Sunknow
    March 30, 2005 - 06:40 pm
    Justin - I said it was out of context....I just took the sentence in another direction. Ok, so it was a LOT out of context.

    But that "negative attitude and opposition to life" is what I have difficulty understanding.

    Sun

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 30, 2005 - 08:25 pm
    Hubert:-Where have you been? We have missed your postings here.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 30, 2005 - 08:36 pm
    "Through the gifts of the people some Moslem religious orders became wealthy and consented to enjoy life.

    "The populace smiled tolerantly at these sacred worldlings but lavished worship upon sincere devotees -- ascribed to them miraculous deeds and powers -- honored them as saints -- celebrated their birthdays -- prayed for their intercession with Allah -- and made pilgrimages to their tombs.

    "Mohammedanism, like Christianity, was a developing and adjustable religion, which would have starled a reborn Mohammed or Christ.

    "As orthodoxy triumphed, toleration waned. From Harun al-Rashid on, the so-called 'Ordinance of Omar,' formerly ignored was increasingly observed. Theoretically, though not always in practice, non-Moslems were now required to wear distinguishing yellow stripes on their clothing. They were forbidden to ride on horseback, but might use an ass or a mule. They were not to build new churches or synagogues, but might repair old ones. No cross was to be displayed outside a church, no church bell should ring.

    "Non-Moslem children were not to be admitted to Moslem schools, but could have schools of heir own. This is still the letter of the law -- not always enforced -- in Islam. Nevertheless there were 45,000 Christians in tenth-century Baghdad. Christian funeral processions passed unharmed through the streets and Moslem protests continued against the employment of Christians and Jews in high office.

    "Even in the heat and challenge of the Crusades Saladin could be generous to the Christians in his realm."

    Robby

    HubertPaul
    March 30, 2005 - 09:46 pm
    "Mohammedanism, like Christianity, was a developing and adjustable religion, which would have starled a reborn Mohammed or Christ.

    A reincarnated Jesus appearing in our century would not be able to recognize his original message in the orthodox sects of our time.

    Justin
    March 30, 2005 - 10:12 pm
    SUn: I thought you were responding to Mal's question about people who find health and well being a hateful thing. I guess you concurred and then passed on to a second thought. Let me have a whack at "negative attitude and opposition to life." Perhaps, it can be made clearer.

    Sufism, as you know, is a Muslim practice in which the advocate tries to achieve a oneness with Allah by focusing on Allah while denying all else. One who refrains from sexual activity even while married will die a martyr. Here we have a religious practice in which life and well being is denied as a means of bring one closer to Allah.

    The Same is true for Christianity. Celibacy is practiced by nuns and priests as an offering to God. Fasting is common means of achieving grace or purity. It is thought to bring one closer to God. One is instructed in Catholicism to have "pure thoughts" at all times ie: one must not lust after others. One must not abuse oneself. These are sins. They are not wonderful expressions of natural functions. Paul advises men to be as he is- a bachelor. He talks about women as unclean. The message is clear. If one refrains from sex one will be closer to God. If such an approach to life is not negative then the world is upside down.

    Jan Sand
    March 30, 2005 - 10:24 pm
    Aside from the condition of humanity which is, to a large degree, upside down, religious practices have resulted in the extinction of at least one sect, the Shakers, and the Catholics are having great difficulty finding enough priests these days. Hopefully these practices will implode these practices.

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 31, 2005 - 03:16 am
    The Coming of the Mongols

    1219-58

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 31, 2005 - 03:29 am
    "Once again history illustrated the truism that civilized comfort attracts barbarian conquest.

    "The Seljuqs had brought new strength to Eastern Islam. But they too had succumbed to ease and had allowed the empire of Malik Shah to break down into autonomous kingdoms culturally brilliant and militarily weak.

    "Religious fanaticism and racial antipathies divided the people into bitter sects and frustrated any united defense against the Crusades.

    "Meanwhile, on the plains and deserts of northwestern Asia, the Mongols thrived on hardships and primitive fertility. They lived in tents or the open air, following their herds to fresh pastures, clothed themselves in oxhides, and studied with relish the arts of war. These new Huns, like their kin of eight centuries back, were experts with dagger and sword, and arrows aimed from their flying steeds. If we may believe the Christian missionary Giovanni de Piano Carpini, 'they eat anything edible, even lice.' They had as little repugnance to feeding on rats, cats, dogs, and human blood as our most cultured contemporaries to eating eels and snails.

    "Jenghiz Khan (1167-1227) -- i.e. the Great King -- disciplined them with severe laws into an irresistible force and led them to the conquest of Central Asia from the Volga to the Chinese Wall. During the absence of Jenghiz Khan from his capital at Karokorum, a Mongol chieftain rebelled against him and formed a league with Ala al-Din Myhammad, the Shah of the independent state of Khwarizan.

    "Jenghiz suppressed the rebellion and sent the Shah an offer of peace. The offer was accepted but shortly thereafter two Mongol merchants in Transoxiana were executed as spies by Muhammad's governor of Otra. Jenghiz demanded the extradition of the governor. Muhammad refused, beheaded the chef of the Mongol embassy and sent its other members back without their beards.

    "Jenghiz declared war and the Mongol invasion of Islam began (1219)."

    And so another era begins.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 31, 2005 - 04:56 am
    Picture: Genghis Khan

    Scroll down for pictures of present-day Mongolia

    Map of Mongolia

    Mongolian art and culture. Click thumbnail for larger picture

    tooki
    March 31, 2005 - 05:39 am
    In the descriptions of battles, skirmishes and wars given in this Durant volume, and in pervious volumes, the number killed, mutilated, thrown in the sea, dismembered, assembled on the field of battle, marched through the pass, wounded, beheaded, and otherwise destroyed is always given in large, round numbers. The figures seem to be disproportionate to the populations of the countries involved or to the historical importance of the skirmish. I’ve wondered why this is. The sources for these figures are ancient historians, and if we can’t trust an ancient historian, who can we trust?

    To my delight this anomaly has been explained by Barbara W. Tuchman, Pulitzer Prize winning author of “A Distant Mirror: the Calamitous 14th Century.”

    “It should be assumed that medieval figures for military forces, battle causalities, plague deaths, revolutionary hordes, processions or any groups en masse are generally enlarged by several hundred percent. This is because the chroniclers did not use numbers as data but as a device of literary art to amaze or appall the reader. These figures were uncritically accepted and repeated by generation after generation of historians.”

    She goes on to say that contemporary historians ascertain numbers by examining actual documents, such as paymaster records. Clearly such records of medieval times are few and far between, and we will never be certain of medieval numbers. But, I’m happier now, viewing these numbers as indicating that a battle was sorta big, bigger, really big, or REALLY, REALLY BIG.

    Fifi le Beau
    March 31, 2005 - 10:55 am
    Durant has already warned us about the inflation of 'numbers' from ancient history, and the writers of that history. He has provided us with this admonition in every volumn so far. I take him at his word and deflate the numbers accordingly.

    Fifi

    Justin
    March 31, 2005 - 02:14 pm
    It is beginning to look as though the inhabitants of the Middle East were attacked by Mongols as well as the French and Germans during the period of the Crusades. The plot thickens.

    robert b. iadeluca
    March 31, 2005 - 05:21 pm
    "An army under the Khan's son, Juji, defeated Muhammad's 400,000 troops at Jand. The Shah fled to Samarkand, leaving 160,000 of his men dead on the field.

    "Another army, under Jenghiz' son Jagatai, captured and sacked Otrar.

    "A third army, under Jenghiz himself, burned Bokhara to the ground, raped thousands of women, and massacred 30,000 men. Samarkand and Balkh surrendered at his coming, but suffered pillage and wholesale slaughter.

    "A full century later Ibn Baruta described these cities as still largely in ruins.

    "Jenghiz' son Tule led 70,000 men through Khurasan, ravaging every town on their march. The mongols placed captives in their van, and gave them a choice between fighting their fellow men in front, or being cut down from behind.

    "Merv was captured by treachery and was burned to the ground. Its libraries, the glory of Islam, were consumed in the conflagration. Its inhabitants were allowed to march out through the gates with their treasures, only to be massacred and robbed in detail. This slaughter (the Moslem historians aver) occupied thirteen days and took 1,300,000 lives.

    "Nishapur resisted long and bravely but succumbed (1221), Every man, woman, and child there was killed except 400 artisan-artists who were sent to Mongolia. The heads of the slain were piled up in a ghastly pyramid. The lovely city of Rayy, with its 3000 mosques and its famous pottery kilns, was laid in ruins and (a Moslem historian tells us). Its entire population was put to death.

    "Muhammad's son Jalal ud-Din collected a new army of Turks, gve Jenghiz battle on the Indus, was defeated and fled to Delhi. Herat, having rebelled against its Mongol governor, was punished with the slaughter of 60,000 inhabitants. This ferocity was part of the military science of the Mongols. It sought to strike a paralyzing terror into the hearts of later opponents and to leave no possibility of revolt among the defeated.

    "The policy succeeded."

    Robby

    Justin
    March 31, 2005 - 06:31 pm
    There is a difference in this slaughter. It is not committed in the name of religion. It is engaged in for the pure joy of fighting, killing, raping, and pillaging. The Mongols enjoy this activity. It makes them feel like men, big men, powerful men. They were happy in Mongolia. They braved the elements and survived. But one day, they realized that was not enough. They had to fight and overcome others. They took home very little because they liked to burn and destroy as well as fight and kill. The Mongol force was formidable and its effect upon the east completely destroyed whatever cultural growth had been achieved in eastern society. These people were left with nothing but Islam.

    Jan Sand
    March 31, 2005 - 07:04 pm
    Normally locusts restrict themselves to an area and are not of very large size. Periodically, perhaps because of special weather conditions, the locusts begin to breed furiously and develop into a much larger version. When they mature they form huge flying swarms and move out to ravage other areas leaving very little food behind. Then they die out until the conditions re-occur for another swarm. Perhaps the Mongols reacted to a similar biological change. Mankind assigns to itself a mental superiority over other creatures but it may be subject to biological influences no different than locusts.

    Fifi le Beau
    March 31, 2005 - 07:06 pm
    Durant tells us in Robby's last post that what he is writing is from the moslem historians, and the figures he gives are those of the moslems.

    It is said that Ghengis Khan was born on Lake Baikal. Even on some ancient maps the lake is in Russia, as it is today. It is very near the border of Mongolia though, so there would be some interaction between the two countries.

    I am puzzled by the large army of soldiers that he captured and had defeated in battle. and then told them fight in front or die from behind. It would not be feasible to turn and fight them when the numbers were small in the beginning of his rampage, but by the time he reached Iran, one would think they would turn on their conquerors and fight with the army who opposed the Mongols.

    The moslem historian tells us (via Durant) that when they reached Rayy the entire population was put to death. This city had 3,000 mosques so it could not have been a small village. I find it inconceivable that the women would not try to escape with the children, as happens in every war. Since the first stone was thrown by man, refugees have been on the run. Surely some escaped.

    Fifi

    Jan Sand
    March 31, 2005 - 07:49 pm
    I was curious as to the military invincibility of the Momgols since the west was not inexperienced in war. This site details why this was so and it carries lessons for any military establishment.

    http://www.coldsiberia.org/monmight.htm

    tooki
    March 31, 2005 - 08:24 pm
    Since Durand doesn't spend too much time on the Mongols, anyone interested can visit The Historical Mongol Empire. It has a timeline and maps.

    The discussion of military tactics was great. But I found no mention of shooting arrows over their shoulders. Did I miss it? My obsession with this ability no doubt stems from my inability to look over my shoulder when on horseback without getting vertigo. Remember, only the Huns, Mongols, and American Indians are reported to have had this ability. The Vikings couldn't do it. But, then, these other guys probably couldn't swim.

    Down, Tooki, down.

    Jan Sand
    March 31, 2005 - 10:39 pm
    Since this discussion group is concerned, not only with the facts of history, but also with how these facts shed light on human development and ideals, it should be an object of inquiry as to how the spread of the Mongols affected human history.

    Their military excellence is unquestionable and the relative incompetence of the Muslim and other civilizations in the face of this excellence is revealing. But something deeper is at stake.

    What other contributions did the Mongols make to humanity in general? Their military operations involved incredible cruelty and left behind not a superior civilization but merely devastation and destruction. This poses the question as to whether military perfection is worthwhile as a goal to the deprivation of all the other worthwhile accomplishments.

    In what way was the Mongol invasion superior to the black plague in afflicting Western Civilization except that its executing elements were somewhat more intelligent than bacteria?

    Perhaps this is a lesson for today where the thrust of much of the power struggle now in process is not particularly promising of a better world and is inferior to the Mongol conquest only in that it justifies its murder and torture of innocents with hypocricy rather than proclaiming naked power.

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 1, 2005 - 03:02 am
    Islam and Christendom

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 1, 2005 - 03:20 am
    "The rise and decline of Islamic civilization is one of the major phenomena of history.

    "For five centuries, from 700 to 1200, Islam led the world in power, order, and extent of government -- in refinement of manners -- in standards of living -- in humane legislation and religious toleration -- in literature, scholarship, science, medicine, and philosophy

    "In architecture it yielded the palm, in the twelfth century, to the cathedrals of Europe. Gothic sculpture found no rival in inhibited Islam. Moslem art exhusted itself in decoration, and suffered from narrowness of range and monotony of style.

    "But within its self-imposed limits it has never been surpassed.

    "In Islam art and culture were more widely shared than in medieval Christendom. Kings were calligraphers, and merchants, like physicins, might be philosophers.

    "In sexual morality during these centuries, Christendom probably excelled Islam, although there was not much to choose. Christian monogamy, however evaded in practice, kept the sexual impulse within bounds and slowly raised the status of woman, while Islam darkened the face of woman with purdah and the veil.

    "The Church succeeded in limiting divorce. Homosexual diversions seem never to have attained, even in Renaissance Italy, the spread and freedom allowed them not in Mohammedan law but in Moslem life.

    "The Moslems seem to have been better gentlemen than their Christian peers. They kept their word more frequently, showed more mercy to the defeated, and were seldom guilty of such brutality as marked the Christian capture of Jerusalem in 1099.

    "Christian law continud to use ordeal by battle, water, or fire while Moslem law was developing an advanced jurisprudence and an enlightened judiciary.

    "The Mohammedan religion, less original than the Hebrew, less embracing in eclecticism than the Christian, kept its creed and ritual simpler and purer, less dramatic and colorful, than the Christian, and made less concession to the natural polytheism of mankind. It resembled Protestantism in scorning the aid and play that Mediterranean religion offered to the imagination and the senses. But it bowed to popular sensualism in its picture of paradise.

    "It kept itself almost free from sacerdotalism but fell into a narrow and dulling orthodoxy just when Christianity was entering into the most exuberant period of Catholic philosophy."

    Much opportunity here to discuss the differences between the Islamic, Hebraic, and Christian religions. Always with consideration of other participants, of course.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 1, 2005 - 03:31 am
    Click HERE to read of the Pope's condition.

    Robby

    Bubble
    April 1, 2005 - 04:05 am
    The worse is that no matter what the Pope, as a living symbol, cannot give up and die in peace, away from public life? Poor man.

    tooki
    April 1, 2005 - 04:16 am
    From the Pope's decision to not go back to the hospital, can one surmise that "extraordinary measures" to prolong his life will not be taken? I wonder if he has a final directive? Or even if he has told someone what to do in the case of his lapsing into unconsciousness? Is there a religious element in a final directive? That is, for some religions MUST all and any medical measures be used to prolong life?

    I ask because I don't know.

    Scrawler
    April 1, 2005 - 11:05 am
    It seems to me that Durant should have titled his book: "The Story of History" instead of "civilization." Because after all "History" is the drama of individuals in conflict - and so far I've seen a lot of Conflict! What is happening in this time frame is no exception.

    JoanK
    April 1, 2005 - 11:52 am
    Genghis Khan: we have just started the discussion of "The Kite Runner" a novel that takes place in contemporary Afghanistan. One of the themes of the novel is ethnic differences in Afghanistan. It seems that the tribe of Afghans that is thought to be the direct descendent's of Genghis Khan has become the lowest in status in Afghanistan, reduced to being servants. They were massacred in large numbers by the Taliban. So military might not only doesn't lead to civilization, it doesn't last.

    winsum
    April 1, 2005 - 12:27 pm
    I find the basic premise a no brainer. see ya all later.Claire . . .

    Justin
    April 1, 2005 - 01:38 pm
    What I ask of the Abrahamic religions, Islam, Christianity,and Judaism, is that they promote human welfare. One should be a better person for having believed in Allah (God). They all started with human sacrifice. God charged Abraham to kill his son. Abraham, responding to the insistance of Sarah, his wife, sent Hagar and her son into the desert to die. What a wonderful way to start an effort to promote human welfare. Did the effort improve with time and variations in organization?

    No. The objective fell farther afield. Each group, in turn, added more and more restictions, limiting human welfare. The Jews continued to sacrifice their children to a wrathful God. The Christians added sin to the burden of man. Islam added a darkened face to women and brutal punishments for those who object or defect.

    I struggle to find a redeeming quality in any one of the three Abrahamic religions. I have thus far struggled in vain. Intellectual honesty often wears the face of opposition but always solicits honest unbiased response. As we move on with Durant from Islam into Judaism and Christianity we have another chance to find a redeeming quality in one of these religions. Like Diogenes, let us search in earnest.

    Shasta Sills
    April 1, 2005 - 02:14 pm
    I've always believed that the violent streak in human nature is inherited from our animal ancestors. But Carl Sagan in "Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors" says it isn't so. He says there is no known animal species as violent as homo sapiens. Only we have invented warfare. It's very discouraging to think we are the most violent animal on the planet. And there's nobody to blame it on but ourselves.

    Jan Sand
    April 1, 2005 - 02:41 pm
    As disheartening as warfare might be amongst humans, I believe ants are also guilty. Whether or not ants have faith is yet to be determined.

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 1, 2005 - 06:04 pm
    "The influence of Christendom on Islam was almost limited to religion and war. Probably from Christian exemplars came Mohammedan mysticism, monasticism, and the worship of the saints.

    "The figure and story of Jesus touched the Moslem soul and appeared sympathetically in Moslem poetry and art.

    "The influence of Islam upon Christendom was varied and immense.

    "From Islam Christian Europe received foods, drinks, drugs, medicaments, armor, heraldry, art motives and tastes, industrial and commercial articles and techniques, maritime codes and ways, and often the words for these things -- orange, lemon, sugar, syrup, sherbet, julep, elixir, jar, azure, arabesque, mattress, sofa, muslin, satin, fustian, bazaar, caravan, check, tariff, traffic, douane, magazine, risk, sloop, barge, cable, admiral.

    "The game of chess came to Europe from India via Islam and picked up Persian terms on the way. Checkmate is from the Persian shah mat -- 'the king is dead.'

    "Some of our musical instruments bear in their names evidence of their Semitic origin -- lute, rebeck, guitar, tambourine. The poetry and music of the troubadours came from Moslem Spain into Provence and from Moslem Sicily into Italy.

    "Arabic descriptions of trips to heaven and hell may have shared in forming The Divine Comedy. Hindu fables and numerals entered Europe in Arabic dress or form.

    "Moslem science preserved and developed Greek mathematics, physics, chemistry, astronomy, and medicine and transmitted this Greek heritage, considerably enriched, to Europe. Arabic scientifc terms -- algebra, zero, cipher, azimuth, alembic, zenith, almanac -- still lie imbedded in European speech. Moslem medicine led the world for half a millennium.

    "Moslem philosophy preserved and corrupted Aristotle for Christian Europe. Avicenna and Averroes were lights from the East for the Schoolmen, who cited them as next to the Greeks in authority."

    More rich material to examine and discuss.

    Robby

    kiwi lady
    April 1, 2005 - 06:21 pm
    I suggest what upsets people is that in all three religions culture has drowned the basic precepts of the tennets of each faith. I know people from all three who are shining lights of compassion generosity and love for their fellow man. The tenets of all three faiths are the same really. Love Hope faith and the instruction to care for our fellow human beings. Thats how I see it anyhow!

    Jan Sand
    April 1, 2005 - 07:19 pm
    One of the most profound inconsistencies within faith is its view if death. The majority of religions promise an afterlife as one of its most seductive offerings and most adherents seem to accept that their behavior in life conforms sufficiently to religious doctrine to result in a pleasant and perhaps delightful afterlife.

    Nevertheless there is no lack of grief felt and displayed when someone dies and the Schiavo case and the expected death of the Pope is not welcomed with joy as would be expected if people really welcomed a wonderful afterlife.

    There seems to me to be, here, a total open display of disbelief of one of the basic tenets of religion without the realization by adherents of their inconsistency.

    Justin
    April 1, 2005 - 08:08 pm
    Kiwi: I also know people, many, many people in fact, from each of the three faiths who are shining lights of compassion, generosity and love for their fellow man. But that is not at issue. This discussion is not about people. It is about religion. I will, just this once, talk about a person. Forgive me, Robby.

    The Holy Father is dying. He is a man who can be said to have compassion for his fellow man.He has apologized for the evil committed by his church during Holocaust. He confessed to many of the sins committed by the church and actually did pennance for those sins. But he has consistently refused to honor the decisions of Vatican 11. He has denied women a role in the Church. He has opposed contraception and denied his incelibate priesthood the right to marry.Have these policies impinged or helped the well being of man?

    Justin
    April 1, 2005 - 08:20 pm
    Jan has a worthwhile thought here. We grieve when someone dies, we do not rejoice.On the other hand,early Christian martyrs and some Muslims today welcomed death in order to go to paradise. Christians welcomed death as an alternative to their present life which must have been painful.Paradise promised the sight of God. The Islamic paradise promised that and seventy virgins, in addition. Some Islamic martyrs were women. The virgins would not attract them but their present life must have been very unpleasant for them to choose to leave it.

    3kings
    April 1, 2005 - 08:57 pm
    JUSTIN I smiled at your sly dig, about Islamic women not being attracted by the prospect of Virgins in the afterlife. I can't imagine even the said Virgins being much impressed by such an afterlife, either. Just further evidence, that heaven, like God, is a male construct, not a female one.++ Trevor

    Justin
    April 1, 2005 - 09:49 pm
    The ancient Greeks,the ancient Sumerians and Babylonians, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all see God as a male figure. Islam of course has not personified images of Allah but when one considers the role of women in that religion it does not seem posible they would think in any others terms than male.

    winsum
    April 1, 2005 - 10:05 pm
    are they still legal. there is a book review in the new yourk times about three different books on the

    CRUSADES"

    claire

    Jan Sand
    April 1, 2005 - 10:07 pm
    When my son died I took offense at the attempts of religious people to comfort me with the thought that he went to a better afterlife. I know they meant well, but the tragedy of death is one of the few really striking realities of life and I would not be deprived of the true significance of the great loss.

    winsum
    April 1, 2005 - 10:27 pm
    also reviewed with a forward here by the author.



    God without Religion

    Claire

    kiwi lady
    April 1, 2005 - 11:10 pm
    Although I grieved deeply I took comfort in a faith that my husband was free from pain and in a far better place. I was allowed to feel my pain by the Pastor and other church folks. Everyone needs to express their grief no matter if they have a strong faith or not.

    Carolyn

    kiwi lady
    April 1, 2005 - 11:12 pm
    claire I read the link and it bears a striking resemblence to the beliefs of the Theosophical society which to me ( have a friend who belongs) is a type of new age organised religion. They even have their own school here.

    Carolyn

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 2, 2005 - 12:26 am

    ROBBY is away for a few days, so I am posting from the book. I'm not very well, so I expect you all to be good and nice to each other.
    The ribbed vault is older in Islam than in Europe, though we cannot trace the route by which it came into Gothic art. Christian spire and belfry owed much to the minaret, and perhaps Gothic window tracery took a lead from the cusped arcading of the Giralda tower.

    The rejuvenation of the ceramic art in Italy and France has been attrivuted to the importation of Moslem porters in the twelfth century, and to the visits of Italian potters to Moslem Spain. Venetian workers in metal and glasss, Italian bookbinders, Spanish armorers, leaned their techniques from Moselm artisans; and almost everywhere in Erope weavers looked to Islam for modens and designs. Even gardens received a Persian influence.

    We shall see later by what avenues these influences came: through commerce and the Crusades; through a thousand translations from Arabic into Latin; through the visits of scholars like Gerbert, Michael Sot, and Adelard of Bath to Moslem Spain; through the sending of Christian youths by their Spanish parents to Moslem courts to receive a knightly education -- for the Moslem aristocrats were accounted "knights and gentlemen, albeit Moors., through the daily contact of Christians wwith Moslems in Syria, Egypt, Sicily and Spain.

    Every advance of of the Christians in Apsin admitted a wave of Islamic literature, science, philosophy, and art into Christendom. So the capture of Toledo in 1085 immensely furthered Christian knowledge of astronomy, and kept alive the doctrine of the sphericity of the earth.

    Bubble
    April 2, 2005 - 01:47 am
    Justin #806: "The Jews continued to sacrifice their children to a wrathful God."
    I thought Isaac was the last to be sacrified? Can you give me an example?

    Robby Checkmate is from the Persian shah mat -- 'the king is dead.'
    That is the term used in Hebrew too and the game of chess is called shah. Most people here also used the Persian names for the numbers on a throw of dice

    I think that, regardless of religions, we would prefer there to be an afterlife to our corporal stay on earth. It must be our pride as 'superior beings' in nature that cannot accept us just fading away

    Jan Sand
    April 2, 2005 - 09:29 am
    Or it might just be that we're scared of returning to the state of where we were before we were born. I know the idea is not particularly entertaining to me but all the alternatives seem to me to be just plain silly.

    DanielDe
    April 2, 2005 - 10:18 am
    I am a little bit off beat here because work is keeping me away at times. Relating to "Isalmic medicine" - the word "Islamic" probably refers to a geographical area rather than a cultural characteristic - in the 11th and 12th centuries, one should bear in mind that it was not until the 17th Century that electricity could be manufactured in large quantities. Rigorous laws in the field were established by Ampère and Ohm in 1827. The stethoscope was invented in France in 1815 by Doctor René Laennec. The lightbulb appeared in the hands of Thomas Edison in 1878. The X Ray was discovered in 1895 in Würzburg, Germany, by Wilhelm Röntgen.

    My son (21 y.o. and has Down Syndrome) broke both his elbows last month (in his workshop). He was operated on and is doing well. I spent at least 8 hours a day at his bedside for two weeks. The six days that preceded the operation, he received a heavy treatment for pain. I couldn’t help but wonder how he would nave been treated back in the 12th Century. I was thankful to be living in the 21st Century.

    HubertPaul
    April 2, 2005 - 11:46 am
    Claire, "God Without Religion", I joined that 'club' when I was nine years old. I was the only member :>)

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 2, 2005 - 01:05 pm

    Pope John Paul II has died. May he rest in peace.

    I was trying to figure out how many popes there had been in my lifetime. Pope Pius XI is the first one I remember. Looking at a timeline, I see that there have been six.
    Popes and the papacy in th 20th century

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    April 2, 2005 - 01:16 pm
    Daniel, I guess that that was a typo, no?

    Justin
    April 2, 2005 - 01:39 pm
    Bubble: It was common among families to sacrifice one or more children around the time of the Babylonian captivity. I will find the references in Durant and pass them on to you. The practice was frowned upon at that time but continued unabated till much later.

    3kings
    April 2, 2005 - 04:34 pm
    Jan Sand Your remark about where we were before we were born reminds me that the Western religions seem uncertain about the matter. In any case it is seldom mentioned, except as an aside. that we come from God.

    If so, it seems odd that the soul has no 'memory' of this " before life". After all, in the after life, it is claimed that the soul remembers in detail its sojourn here on earth. So if our soul is eternal, and existed before our birth, then surely it must have knowledge of those times. === Trevor.

    Justin
    April 2, 2005 - 05:18 pm
    Trevor; How many angels can stand on the head of a pin?

    winsum
    April 2, 2005 - 05:54 pm
    I thought that was rabbis... on the head of that pin. . . .Hi trevor. interesting isn't it. not only where are we going but from whence have we come. . . claire

    Justin
    April 2, 2005 - 06:06 pm
    Everyone knows from whence we come. Some of us come from the rumble seat of the family car. Others come from a litle honeymoon excitement. When you are talking about origins you are talking about urges. A few of us came with the stork from his nest where babies are stored in three cornered pants.

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 2, 2005 - 08:50 pm

    Behind this borrowing smoldered an undying hate. Nothing, save bread, is so precious to mankind as its religious beliefs; for man lives not by bread alone, but also by the faith that lets him hope. Therefore his deepest hatred greets those who challenge his sustenence or his creed. For three centuries Christianity saw Islam advance, saw it capture and absorb one Christian land after another, felt its constricting hand upon Christian trade, and heard it call Christians infidels.

    At last the potential conflict became actual --- the rival civilizations clashed in the Crusades, and the best of the East or West slew the best of the West or East. Back of all medieval history lay this mutual hostility, with a third faith, the Jewish, caught between the main combatants and cut by both swords.

    The West lost the Crusades, but won the war of creeds. Every Christian warrior was expelled from the Holy Land of Judaism and Christianity, but Islam, bled by its tardy victory, and ravaged by the Mongols, fell in turn into a Dark Age of obscurantism and poverty; while the beaten West, matured by its effort and forgetting its defeat, learned avidly from its enemy, lifted cathedrals into the sky, wandered out on the high seas of reason, transformed its crude new languages into Dante, Chaucer, and Villon, and moved with high spirit into the Renaissance.


    Nothing, save bread, is so precious to mankind as its religious beliefs?

    Justin
    April 2, 2005 - 09:30 pm
    Trevor will agree with that observation, Mal. Economics first, theology second.

    Jan Sand
    April 2, 2005 - 10:35 pm
    And, at least in contemporary terms, reason third.

    winsum
    April 2, 2005 - 11:30 pm
    I've gotta give the Durants some credit for writing. Those last two paragraphs are passionate, rhythmic and beautiful. I enjoyed them. . . thank you. . . claire

    DanielDe
    April 3, 2005 - 03:59 am
    I was surprised to discover that fact, but electricity could be produced by "static" machines as early as in the 17th Century. It was still in its early stages. The technology did not yet allow mass production.

    DanielDe
    April 3, 2005 - 04:38 am
    Rejecting the theocratic government of the Catholic Church over my life, meant for me to reject religion in any form - a set of practices that gives us the external impression of communicating with a god but that produces no internal results.

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    April 3, 2005 - 06:06 am
    Daniel, right you need modern technology to produce electricity en masse, then it took that long to benefit from it. In my mother's lifetime, she saw for the first time electric lighting and electric washing machines. It was no typo, it was my ignorance. I learn from my children every day.

    Millions of Catholics all over the world are respectfully, silently and peacefully paying homage to Pope Jean Paul 11, their spiritual leader, who has proclaimed peace on earth throughout his pontificate. He humbly asked for forgiveness on behalf of Catholics for their silence during Holocaust and travelled in a hundred countries throughout the world to promote peace and harmony.

    tooki
    April 3, 2005 - 06:51 am
    “Epicurean indulgence, physical and mental exhaustion, military incompetence and cowardice, religious sectarianism and obscurantism, political corruption and anarchy, all culminating in piecemeal collapse before external attack – this, and no change of climate, turned Western Asia from world leadership to destitution, from a hundred teeming and cultured cities… into the poverty, disease, and stagnation of modern times.”

    I take “no change of climate” to mean that climatic factors, whatever they might have been, did not bear on the fall of Islam, in Durant’s view.

    In Durant’s time the argument for climate being a determining factor in the fall of civilizations, or societies, was called the geographical argument. It was opposed by most historians because it was considered deterministic. Civilizations were let off the hook if, for example, it rained too much or there were years of drought, and crops failed. Durant stands for civilizations and societies having responsibility for controlling all factors contributing to their continuance, functions, and well being of the people.

    Many contemporary commentators dispute this view, holding that the current “privileged position of the West” is because of the better resources and location of Western countries, not because of democratic values and ideals. Jarred Diamond made this argument a few years ago in his Pulitzer Prize Winner, “Guns, Germs, and Steel.” In his current best seller, “Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or succeed.” “he attempts to demonstrate how civilizations disintegrate: how mishandling of the fragile environment causes wars, famines, depopulation and eventual breakdown.”

    Here is another sample of this deterministic argument:

    Climate Change and Civilizations

    So which is it: are civilizations and societies self determining captains of their fates and masters of their souls, or are they hapless victims of rain, snow, hail, and sleet?

    Jan Sand
    April 3, 2005 - 07:11 am
    Back in the 1700s the early machines produced static electricity by rubbing one substance against another and storing the result in Leyden jars which were just glass bottles with metal foil on the inside and the outside not in contact. You get the same result by rubbing your feet across a rug and getting a spark from your fingertip.

    If a wire connected the two foils there was a spark. Strangely, it was discovered that if the metal foils were removed from the bottle and put in contact no discharge took place because the charge was held within the glass of the bottle which was a dielectric. When the foil was replaced then the electric spark could be produced.

    The word for electric comes from the Greek word for amber which could be rubbed with a cloth to produce a spark.

    The flow of current produced in modern dynamos is made by permitting a coil of wire to cut across magnetic field lines. There are other ways, one of which is squeezing a quartz crystal to produce the piezoelectric effect and another is the chemistry in various kinds of batteries. The hydrogen fuel cell is also becoming more popular.

    JoanK
    April 3, 2005 - 07:49 am
    "are civilizations and societies self determining captains of their fates and masters of their souls, or are they hapless victims of rain, snow, hail, and sleet?"

    My guess would be both. We are increasingly getting the technology to deal with physical and climate changes, but failing to use it, as witness our response to known dangers such as pollution and the greenhouse effect. Whe can, but often don't, mobilize world wide resources to help deal with more local disasters. but there is much that is beyond us, like the coming of the next ice age.

    DanielDe
    April 3, 2005 - 09:07 am
    If one looks at Switzerland, one sees that it built its economic leverage power through trade, because it has very limited natural resources. It was the trade of technical knowledge (engineering) that made Switzerland what it is. It also possesses a distinct quality in the field of politics - the art of self government as a people, a community - and military strategy. Nowadays, it is being caught up to by other countries in all these domains, and so the difference between Switzerland and other countries, those of Europe in particular, is diminishing - as is the difference between the different levels of income.

    From that example, it appears that the capacity to "create wealth" - generate new products, invent new technology, maintain a system of free enterprise and trade that will input into the military, maintain social peace through a constitution and civil code that promote freedom and justice among the various segments of population - is the main attribute of a strong civilization.

    Nestlé is a very widely known corporation, but not everyone thinks of Switzerland when it sees that name.

    Jan Sand
    April 3, 2005 - 09:16 am
    The increasing influence of religion and faith in the USA and its opposition to the pragmatic discoveries of science and the recomendations of the scientific community on the programs to protect and secure the sustanance of the basics of life does not bode well for the future of this sector of western civilization. There is no doubt that only knowledge and the wise use of knowledge can maintain civilization against the vagaries of a universe that may or may not be favorable to life and the faith that humankind is somehow perceived by the universe as something not to be assailed by random destruction looks to become catastrophic in the next few decades.

    DanielDe
    April 3, 2005 - 10:02 am
    As we saw from Durant, Islamic countries were able to produce new technology and "create wealth" up to the 12th Century. It seems that it was their political skills that somehow did not follow up, so to speak. I remember a token phrase by a professor of mine at University that said: "Arabic people, they can never get along..." The novel by T.E. Lawrence, "The Seven Pillars of Wisdom" illustrates that point, and contemporary news coverage from the Middle East does not yet contradict that statement. However, Islam itself has not receded.

    3kings
    April 3, 2005 - 07:58 pm
    DanielDe You say, "However, Islam itself has not receded". Quite so, unlike the West, where secular attitudes are becoming predominant.

    As long as the people in Islamic countries remain dirt poor, then Islam will flourish. If and when their economic well being improves, then it is likely that, as in the West, the Islamic faith will begin to lose it's hold. ++ Trevor.

    DanielDe
    April 3, 2005 - 08:48 pm
    Could one speak of a homogeneous culture in the Middle East, the cradle of Islam? Nations in that area comprise Iran (Persia), Turkey, Cyprus, Lebanon, Jordan, Palestine, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Egypt, Oman, Bahrain, Qatar, United Arab Emirates, Kuwait and Yemen - Israel being omitted for an obvious reason. Democratic representation is only being installed in Saudi Arabia, yet democracy has been running for quite some time in many other of these countries that are less prosperous economically. Monarchies (Emirates) coexist with democratic representations, and in some countries, Islamic law (sharia) is either directly applied or it inspires the legislative agenda.

    DanielDe
    April 3, 2005 - 09:11 pm
    Today’s differences are symptomatic of yesterdays’ cultural differences among these people, who in some cases, in the 12th century, were essentially tribes living in desert land. In some others, the marks of civilization were prevalent as in Egypt and Persia.

    DanielDe
    April 3, 2005 - 09:40 pm
    Economic prosperity has in my opinion the power to change one’s attitude or belief towards religion. King Solomon was a case in point. Closer to us, it can be seen today in Switzerland where foreigners and tourist describe the Swiss in general as being "cold shouldered". Apparently, Christianity here does not have any more the clout it used to have during the Reformation. But isn’t Islam spreading even in Western countries? Recently, the French government felt the need to institute a national consultative body for the Islamic Religion.

    Jan Sand
    April 3, 2005 - 10:45 pm
    In the USA the spread of Islam amongst African-Americans is more an expression of racial rather than religious attitude although there is probably a religious factor involved. The despicable racial attitudes of the white community towards black people in America has changed to a large degree but there are still many places where it is still evident. By turning to Islam African-Americans have expressed their rejection of white cultural attitudes. Although black Christian churches played a large role in eliminating the racial discrimination in the USA, many white Christian congregations maintained anti-black attitudes for a long time.

    In France the situation is quite different. Islam is a religion imported with many of the Middle-Eastern immigrants who sought economic opportunity in European France when the French colonies separated leaving many impoverished French speaking North Africans without economic sustanance.

    In Germany it was, in like manner, the Turks who found opportunity when the Germans needed people to fill low paying jobs that Germans preferred not to fill.

    Incidentally, the term "cold shouldered" is not correct. You probably meant "cold hearted". A difference of anatomy.

    DanielDe
    April 3, 2005 - 11:03 pm
    The term does mean "cold hearted" as you suggest. One or two people I know did use the term "cold shouldered", that one can undestand as meaning unfriendly and unsupportive. For most foreigners that establish themselves in Switzerland, developping relationships with the Swiss is next to impossible. This was not my case though as I was given unreal opportunities to participate in the cantonal administration (government) of Vaud.

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 3, 2005 - 11:20 pm
    The general reader will marvel at the length of this survey of Islamic civilization, and the scholar will mourn its inadequate brevity, Only at the peaks of history has a society produced, in an equalperiod, so many illustrious men -- in government, education, literature, philology, geography, history, mathematics, astronomy, chemistry, philosophy, and medicine as Islam in the four centuries between Harun al-Rashid and Averroes.

    Part of this brilliant activity fed on Greek leavings; but much of it, above all in satemanship, poetry and art, was original and invaluable. In one sense tis zenith of Islam was a recovery of the Near East from Greek domination; it reached back not only to Sasanian and Achaemenid Persia, but to the Judea of Solomon, the Assyria of Ashurbanipal, the Babylonia of Hammurabi, the Akkad of Saron, the Sumeria of unknown kings.

    So the continuity of history reasserts itself; despite earthquakes, epidemics, famines, eruptive migrations, and catastrophic wars; the essential processes of civilization are not lost; some younger culture takes them up, snatches them from the conflagration, carries them on imitatively, then creatively, until fresh youth and spirit can enter the race.

    As men are members of one another, and generations are moments in a family line, so civilizations are units in a larger whole whose name is history: they are stages in the life of man. Civilization is polygenetic -- it is cooperative product of many peoples, ranks, and faiths, and no one who stuides its history can be a bigot of race or creed.

    Therefore the scholars, though he belongs to his country through affectionate kinship, feels himself also a citizen of that Countyr of the Mind which knows no hatreds and no frontiers; he hardly deserve his name if he carries into his study political prejudices, or racial discriminations, or religious animosities, and he accords his grateful homage to any people that has borne the torch and enriched his heritage,


    Durant is kinder and more generous than I am, but then, I'm not a historian.

    ROBBY should be back tonight or Tuesday morning. We'll wait until then to begin the discussion of the Judaic Civilization.

    winsum
    April 3, 2005 - 11:41 pm
    I can't read your comments the type is too snall. but perhaps that is your intent?. . . . claire

    Jan Sand
    April 3, 2005 - 11:56 pm
    I am a native English speaker and I have always heard the term "cold shouldered" used as a verb, not an adjective. "Cold hearted" is an adjective describing a diffident personality. Someone can be cold shouldered by someone else who ignores him. Someone who has cold shoulders merely needs a sweater or a jacket.

    DanielDe
    April 4, 2005 - 12:12 am
    I stand corrected and I appreciate your comment. I heard the the term the first time as it was used by an english speaking friend a long time ago, describing her impression of the Swiss. I tought it was a picturesque way to describe the "cold hearted" attitude. I am not sure if it was the way she used it or if my recollection is not accurate. But I do strive to use a language the proper way. Thanks.

    Bubble
    April 4, 2005 - 01:01 am
    As men are members of one another, and generations are moments in a family line, so civilizations are units in a larger whole whose name is history: they are stages in the life of man. Civilization is polygenetic -- it is cooperative product of many peoples, ranks, and faiths, and no one who studies its history can be a bigot of race or creed.

    This paragraph is easy to identify with. Having stayed for short periods, from 4 months to 2 years, if different places, I have seen many people, many cultures of different faith and importance. One learn to have a broader mind and accept differences.

    To comment on Daniel's post, my two years in Switzerland as a highshool foreigner living in a rented room with no family there , those two years were the hardest in my life because of the cold shoulder/heart of the "natives". Except for one evening at the end of Yom kippur and one other invitation to another rebelious teenager, I have never been invited to a Swiss home.

    On the other hand, Americans were most hospitable and going out of their ways to help me, take me out, introducing their families, during my two 6 months stay there. My orthopedic surgeon invited me for week ends at home, while I was with 2 full legs casts and all the problems that it could create.

    Is that a cultural difference? A disposition of the heart? In Islam, it is one of the precept to welcome visitors and no harm should come to them during such visits. The opening of the house and offering of kawa is a sacred duty fullfilled the same way in Lebabon, Egypt, Jordan, to cite places I have visited.

    Jan Sand
    April 4, 2005 - 02:55 am
    English, like any language, has its nuances. On rethinking the phrase, I recalled that it is possible to "give someone the cold shoulder" and there it is used as a noun. There, the word "give" is used in the sense of to demonstrate and only in a restricted sense to donate.

    Jan Sand
    April 4, 2005 - 03:15 am
    I have just finished reading a short story by Robert Silverberg who has been writing science fiction for many years. The story was republished in "The Mammoth Book of Science Fiction # 13" and it describes the adventure of a temporary exile from the Roman Empire and his confrontation with Mohammed. He captures the ambience of Mecca of that time and describes closely the economics and culture of that time and place. I cannot vouch for the accuracy of the detail but I found it fascinating and perhaps appropriate for this discussion.

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    April 4, 2005 - 04:28 am
    I understood perfectly well what Daniel meant because like him I use English only about 10% of the time. I am always making mistakes but on Seniornet, which has mostly American participants, I am always forgiven and they seem to understand what I am saying or else they ask. As Bubble said, Americans are hospitable and have a heartfelt generosity that makes a foreigner feel better than in several other countries I have visited in Europe. But Friends of Daniel have literally welcomed me like if I was a member of their family several times It depends in what setting we are visiting a foreign country. Do you understand what I mean>

    Éloïse

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 4, 2005 - 04:52 am
    "Intelligent-design theory is not science. The proof is in the pudding. Scientists, including scientists who are Christians, do not use Intelligent Design Theory when they do science because it offers nothing in the way of testable hypotheses. Lee Anne Chaney, professor of biology at Whitworth College, a Christian institution, wrote in a 1995 article: 'As a Christian, part of my belief system is that God is ultimately responsible. But as a biologist, I need to look at the evidence…. I don't think intelligent design is very helpful because it does not provide things that are refutable — there is no way in the world you can show it's not true. Drawing inferences about the deity does not seem to me to be the function of science because it's very subjective.' "

    MORE

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 4, 2005 - 04:59 am

    ELOISE, I understood what Daniel meant, too.

    As far as going to different countries, sometimes you have to have an "in". I found Switzerland and Holland the two coldest countries of five I visited. In Holland, though, my husband had business colleagues he had met before, who invited me into their homes.

    I've said it before here. The country which was most helpful and kindest to me as a handicapped woman on my own (which I was 99% of the time I was in Europe) was France.

    Mal

    Bubble
    April 4, 2005 - 05:36 am
    "If I take a lamp and shine it toward a wall, a bright spot the wall. The lamp is our search for truth, for understanding. assume that the light on the wall is god, but the light is search, it is the result of the search. The more intense the the light on the wall. The brighter the light on the wall, sense of revelation upon seeing it. Similarly, someone who who does not bring a lantern with him, sees nothing"
    - G'Kar, B5:"Meditations on the Abyss"

    BABYLON 5

    tooki
    April 4, 2005 - 05:46 am
    and other felicitous idiomatic expressions. “A disposition of the heart” is a fine metaphor: it captures the ambivalence of whether there is such as thing as “a disposition,” or whether the “heart” can be described as having characteristics. While metaphors need not possess literal truth, I think this one well suggests that there are folks who might just not be warm hearted. They are cold hearted and as a result of their cold, cold, hearts, heat doesn’t make it to their extremities and, poor things, they are cold shouldered. Being cold shouldered, in some cultures they are considered “cool,” an attribute close to “hip,” or “with it.”

    The evidence, then, suggests that the metaphors "disposition of the heart," "cold shouldered," and "turning a cold shoulder" are all culture bound.

    tooki
    April 4, 2005 - 05:51 am
    Bubble's quote in post 863 is Plato"s "Cave" revisited. Isn't it? I'll go now and run to my well thumbed copy of Plato and see. Can anyone quote Plato right off the top of their head! Wow, if you can! Great minds and all that applies here.

    Jan Sand
    April 4, 2005 - 06:40 am
    It was not a question of understanding what Daniel meant. It was clear to me also. And although I have heard before that the Swiss are not particularly welcoming, I strongly doubt that this is true of all the Swiss. There may be an element of Swiss culture which emphasises caution with strangers but I doubt genetics has anything to do with it.

    I merely thought that Daniel should be acquainted with standard usage.

    I have lived in the USA in various states, In Berlin, Germany, in Paris, France, In Tel Aviv, Israel, and in Helsinki, Finland and I have encountered people both warm and cold and various temperatures inbetween in all these places.

    winsum
    April 4, 2005 - 07:51 am
    EVERYONE seems to be warm and helpful and interested. . . and they come from all over. I hesitate to make generalizations based on geography.

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 4, 2005 - 08:03 am

    I suppose an assessments depends on one's individual experiences when in another country. BUBBLE's in Switzerland certainly doesn't sound as if it was very welcoming.

    Mal

    Jan Sand
    April 4, 2005 - 08:17 am
    As a native New Yorker I am used to living in an apartment house where people seldom even nod in passing each other. On the subway people habitually averted their eyes to avoid being pressed for a handout or being hit on or whatever. People make contacts through professions or work or other social stimulants. Loneliness in New York, or in many America big cities is not a secret phenomenon. I would not characterize New Yorkers in any particular way. They vary greatly. Perhaps the Swiss are merely shy. They say that about Finns also.

    I have heard that the worst thing you can do when encountering a gorilla in the wild is to stare into its eyes. It is taken as an aggressive challenge. Primates have different ways of dealing with each other and under the correct approaches, even gorillas can be accommodating.

    winsum
    April 4, 2005 - 08:54 am
    I must smile a lot withoutthinking about it because people keep smiling at me so I guess they are smiling back at me unless I"m sorta rediculous and evoke smiles. . . .When I was younger and wore a pigtail on one side someone approached me in the market and tugged on it as if ringing a bell making a pleasant remark at the same time. I guess it was a flirt, but it happened more than once. do you smile at people openly or do they take it as an invitation to intimacy. It cold be construed that way, but it's never been a problem for me. . . . Claire

    DanielDe
    April 4, 2005 - 09:09 am
    I was reacting to Trevor’s proposition (#846) that "As long as the people in Islamic countries remain dirt poor, then Islam will flourish". In other words, the proposition means that economic prosperity would have a tendency to dull one’s attitude towards faith. There are many a story that tend to prove that statement right. But what should we think of Saudis then? Their economic prosperity does not seem to have dulled their faith in Islam.

    Concerning Switzerland, paradoxically, they are a very courteous people, in spite of their "cool" attitude towards foreigners. If a person - man or woman - enters a tea room, he/she will greet the entire room with a "Bonjour M’sieurs dames", to which generally a few will grumble a similar reply; but they do not know each other. If one enters an elevator, he will do the same, and say good bye to every one as he goes out. In my village, if I cross someone on the sidewalk and happen to meet his eyes, we will say hello spontaneously even if we have never met before. I havn’t seen this in any other country I visited. Sometimes I cannot help myself, in Germany or France, and I say hello to someone I don’t know. Every time I am greeted with a strange look.

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 4, 2005 - 09:16 am

    I had a phone call a few minutes ago. My elder son, Robert, died suddenly this morning in Florida.

    Mal

    winsum
    April 4, 2005 - 09:29 am
    I just watched what appeared to be santa claus stretched out on a stretcher and carried through the halls of saint peters to his place under the basilica for four days of viewing. He was dressed all in red with a white strip of something down the middle and something white on his head and at first I thought it was a disrespectful spoof being pulled by someone but it is really the way the dead pope is dressed and looks as he wends his way through Vatican halls. Incredible to me. don't they know he looks like Santa Claus?. . . . Claire

    Fifi le Beau
    April 4, 2005 - 09:49 am
    Ohhhhhh Mal, you have my heartfelt sympathy. I Wish I could be there to give you a hug to ease your journey.

    A Compassionate friend,

    Fifi

    tooki
    April 4, 2005 - 10:21 am
    Deepest sympathies for your loss. Take care. Pauline

    tooki
    April 4, 2005 - 10:32 am
    It isn't only gorillas who don't like being stared at. Dogs and people don't like it either. "What you lookin' at," is a common beginning to a fight. And, from the town of friendly people and agressive dogs, Portland, Oregon, I have heard once too often, "Oh, don't worry. He's friendly," as the dog stares at you penetratingly, then charges.

    What teen age hoodlums call "dissing," which means "disrespecting" and is always grounds for a fight or shooting, starts usually with staring.

    Bubble
    April 4, 2005 - 10:43 am
    Oh Mal, hugsss. Bubble

    Shasta Sills
    April 4, 2005 - 10:53 am
    Mal, I am so very sorry. I have been through this shock myself and I know it is the worst thing a parent can experience. I wish there was some way I could be of help to you, but I know there isn't.

    Jan Sand
    April 4, 2005 - 10:54 am
    I don't know how Muslims feel about staring, but animals, dogs and cats, are fascinated by people who look at them as if they were as important as people.Blinking slowly is smiling to cats. Blinking and panting is appreciated by dogs and friendly enthusiasm is expressed by sneezing. But sometimes, if people act too much like dogs it makes them nervous. I would wag my tail if I could.

    Scrawler
    April 4, 2005 - 11:46 am
    If we as a particular species [homo sapiens] persumably come from a common seed, what than do you think has made us so different? Is it only because we are different "breeds" similiar to the animal world or is it the fact that we "think" that makes some homo sapiens different from others. Or are we as a species really not different at all, but only appear that way? Inquiring minds want to know!

    Jan Sand
    April 4, 2005 - 12:18 pm
    Within any species there are different animals with different personalities in my experience. Why should humans not have differences too?

    JoanK
    April 4, 2005 - 12:25 pm
    Oh, Mal, my heart goes out to you. All your friends here to whom you mean so much are sending you their love and support.

    DanielDe
    April 4, 2005 - 12:25 pm
    A mother should not have to go through this. From the bottom of my heart, I offer my sincere condolances and deepest sympathy.

    Daniel

    kiwi lady
    April 4, 2005 - 01:01 pm
    I have met several Swiss and like them very much and my son had a Swiss man working for him until recently when he had to go back to Switzerland because his father was terminally ill. He phones my son at least once a month for a chat. Very good worker and really nice man. I don't think we can generalise. I think the Swiss can be blunt, stoical and reserved and that is why maybe some people get the wrong idea about them.

    Carolyn

    Justin
    April 4, 2005 - 02:05 pm
    Oh, Mal. That is shocking news. How sad. I feel close to you and yet there is nothing I can do to help. There are no words that will ease the pain a parent feels when a son dies. It is heart wrenching.

    3kings
    April 4, 2005 - 04:56 pm
    MAL, Having no children, I can only wonder at the pain you will be suffering, now and in the days ahead. My deapest sympathy. Please take great care of yourself. +++ Trevor

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    April 4, 2005 - 05:23 pm
    Mal, How very sorry I am at hearing this sad news. Please know that we are grieving with you.

    Éloïse

    Sunknow
    April 4, 2005 - 07:15 pm
    Mal - I am so sorry to hear about the loss of your son. It is a burden a mother does not expect to bear. My heart goes out to you and yours.

    Sun

    Sunknow
    April 4, 2005 - 07:47 pm
    Too late to correct my spelling....sorry.

    winsum
    April 4, 2005 - 07:51 pm
    is excruciating. I'm so sorry Mal. . . . Claire

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 4, 2005 - 09:59 pm
    I have written Mal an email about her son.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 4, 2005 - 10:00 pm
    The Talmud

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 4, 2005 - 10:03 pm
    "Within Islam and Christendom a remarkable people maintained through every adversity its own unique culture -- consoled and inspired by its own creed -- living by its own laws and morality -- producing its own poets, scientists, scholars, and philosophers -- and serving as the living carriers of fertile seeds between two hostile worlds.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 4, 2005 - 10:08 pm
    We would not be faithful to the general theme of Durant's "The Age of Faith" if we ignored what is going on in Rome these days. It is especially interesting to those of us here who participated in "Caesar and Christ."

    And so for a couple of weeks as we discuss the creation of the Talmud, we may simultaneously discuss the election of a new Pope. We may find this touching of the two cultures stimulating and educational.

    Robby

    Justin
    April 4, 2005 - 11:03 pm
    Bubble: One part of the child sacrifice issue may be found on pages 297-8 in Oriental Heritage. There is more and I will find it for you. There were several references in the Durant material we have covered but going back to find it and actually doing so is something else.

    Justin
    April 4, 2005 - 11:05 pm
    Robby; Good to see you back. I hope all is well with you and your son. Heart breaking news about Mal's son. I too, am in email touch with her.

    kiwi lady
    April 4, 2005 - 11:27 pm
    I emailed Mal early this afternoon. I could not imagine the pain of losing a child. We have come close and that was painful enough.

    Carolyn

    Bubble
    April 5, 2005 - 12:12 am
    Thanks Justin. I am afraid pages don't help me: the Age of Faith volume was missing from the serie I borrowed. Furthermore they are in French, so that the edition is totally different, even as content of each volume.

    I was surprised because from other rabbinical sources I had heard that sacrifices were only of animals after Abraham.

    With Passover looming and all the necessary hassle of spring cleaning and other required seasonal chores, I find it hard to keep up with the posts! Welcome back Robby.

    Thinking of you Mal. I wish I had wings.... Bubble

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 5, 2005 - 04:13 am
    Is the Roman Catholic Church no longer to be a descendant of the ROMAN EMPIRE?

    Robby

    tooki
    April 5, 2005 - 06:58 am
    Passover will be celebrated April 23rd. It is a week long celebration, and preparations are, as noted by Bubble, involved. In “Haaretz –Israel News,” this morning’s headline read, “Chief rabbis skip Pope’s funeral due to Passover preparation.” Passover coming so soon after the Pope’s death makes the article below especially relevant, in addition to Robby starting a new section, “Judaic Civilization.”

    Passover, its history and meaning, including the place of “sacrifice,” is discussed in great detail in an article bearing the stamp of authenticity. It comes from the Department of Jewish Zionist Education of the Jewish Agency for Israel.

    Here is The Passover Seder As Cultural History

    Scrawler
    April 5, 2005 - 10:59 am
    I found this item in our local newspaper:

    "The government of the church now is regulated by norms that go back to the medieval times. The church of Rome is perhaps the last absolute monarchy in the world, and when the pope dies all the curial offices are decapitated. All the heads fall, and only a few special ones remain." ~ Giovanni Maria Vian, A Vatican historian at Rome's La Sapienza University.

    Can you imagine any other government in the 21st century going back to the medieval times for direction let alone being an absolute monarchy?

    Jan Sand
    April 5, 2005 - 11:32 am
    The concept of the Catholic church as a nation is, at best, an odd one. A normal nation, even an absolute monarchy, has many functions and responsibilities dealing with the maintenance of the necessities of life and social structures involved with economics and the realities of communication and transportation and defense. The church involves itself with relationships to its chosen diety which at times must cede power to worldly realities. It is a curious ghostly structure which infiltrates worldly power and frequently comes in conflict with secular interests and probably has always been an uncomfortable relationship.

    Justin
    April 5, 2005 - 03:13 pm
    Bubble: In Tooki's 899 there is a link to Zvi Howard Adelman's "Cultural History of the Jews." In paragraph 4 on Biblical Background, he says ... "there is evidence that after the destruction of the Second Temple Jews continued to offer sacrifices on it's ruins. Such a need was filled by child sacrifice." He goes on to discus the practice in the middle ages. There is, he notes, both a repudiation and evidence of it's existance. While I have not yet found Durant's later references to the subject I am continuing to search for them. My recollection is that the practice continued in spite of repudiation by the priests.

    My earlier reference to pages 297-8 is in Oriental Heritage which you shared with us and not in Age of Faith.

    Justin
    April 5, 2005 - 03:20 pm
    Scrawler: One need only look in the current US administration to find a government seeking guidance from ancient texts.

    Jan Sand
    April 5, 2005 - 05:30 pm
    Although many pogroms were initiated by rumors that Jews used the blood of Christian children to make their matzos, the rumors were always untrue. But the sacrificing of young men and women for political purposes is commonplace amongst many nations up to and including the present day and child soldiers (which is obviously a form of child sacrifice) exists in both Africa and Asia in many nations.

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 5, 2005 - 06:21 pm
    "The rebellion of Bar Cocheba (132-5) was not the last effort of the Jews to regain for Judea the freedom that Pompey and Titus had destroyed.

    "Under Antoninus Pius (138-61) they tried again and failed. Their holy city was forbidden them except on the bitter anniversary of its destruction, when they were allowed, for a consideration, to come and mourn by the walls of their shattered Temple.

    "In Palestine, where 985 towns had been wiped out, and 580,000 men and women had been slain, in Bar Cocheba's revolt, the Jewish population had sunk to half its former volume, and to such an abyss of poverty that cultural life was almost wholly dead.

    "Nevertheless, within a generation after Bar Cocheba, the Beth Din or Jewish National Council -- a court of seventy-one rabbinical scholars and legists -- was established in Tiberias. Synagogues and schools were opened, and hope rose again.

    "The triumph of Christianity brought new difficulties. Before his conversion Constantine had placed the religion of the Jews on a footing of legal equality with those of his other subjects. After his conversion the Jews were oppressed with new retrictions and exactions, and Christians were forbidden to associate with them. Constantius banished the rabbis (337)and made the marriage of a Jew with a Christian woman a capital crime.

    "Julian's brother Gallus taxed the Jews so heavily tht many of them sold their children to meet his demands. In 352 they rebelled again and were again suppressed. Sepphoris was razed to the ground. Tiberias and other cities were partly destroyed, thousand of Jews were killed, thousands were enslaved.

    "The condition of the Palestinian Jews now (359) sank so low and their communication with other Jewish communities was so difficult that their patriarch Hillel II resigned their right to determine for all Jews the dats of the Jewish festivals and issued, for the independent computation of these dates, a calendar that remains in use among the Jews of the world to this day."

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 5, 2005 - 07:37 pm

    Folks, it's a very hard time for ROBBY right now. He was in Florida with his son over the weekend. Roland isn't expected to live much longer. I was hoping ROBBY would come in tonight and say something about it.

    When I heard from him this morning ROBBY was dreadfully tired, having been up until 2 a,m. I hope he's able to get some rest tonight. Please think of him and Roland.

    It isn't easy. I didn't know I'd know that before ROBBY did, but here I am. Thank you all for being so kind. You're like family to me.

    Mal

    Bubble
    April 6, 2005 - 12:11 am
    Thanks Justin for the search and info. What can I say? I am glad documents for history survive to show the real past - maybe. Apparently we all get some warped facts in our education.

    Picturesque Palestine

    Read this article "When Palestine was picturesque" from 31 March about Palestine and especially the second to last paragraph. It was new for me too.

    Sorry to hear that news for Robby. I hope that Roland is not in pain and everything is made easy for him. Unfortunately, there is no possible means to make it easy for Robby - or Mal. The pain of a parent losing a child cannot be erased and decades later is still present, even if numbed by time. Robby, this big "family" is will you in thought and will not leave you alone.
    Bubble

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    April 6, 2005 - 01:14 am
    In every faith there are abominations and cruelty, as there is in every culture or nation on earth, it is there in man's nature. In the Bible we read these verses indicating that it was a practiced but it was condemned:

    "Deut. 18:10 "Let no one among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire."

    Lev. 18:21 "Do not give any of your children to be sacrificed to Moleck for you must not profane the name of your God. I am the Lord.


    Éloïse

    Jan Sand
    April 6, 2005 - 03:10 am
    For those of you who might be curious to see a different evaluation of Pope John Paul II see

    http://www.counterpunch.org/connolly04052005.html

    Jan Sand
    April 6, 2005 - 04:38 am
    The terms "nature" and "natural" are so vague as to be useless. There is a potential in most humans to act in many, many different ways depending upon genetic capability and cultural and environmental influences. An assessment of these capabilities and how they are utilized is informing only if the many contributing factors are acknowledged and analyzed. "Natural" has no bearing on this evaluation.

    tooki
    April 6, 2005 - 05:28 am
    Simon Bar Cocheba, "son of the star," is an elusive figure in the mists of the internet. Here are some tidbits.

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 6, 2005 - 01:27 pm

    The fact that Pope John Paul II was always extremely conservative has never been a secret.

    Mal

    tooki
    April 6, 2005 - 02:12 pm
    The article on the Pope is from “Counterpunch,” which fancies itself an “Out of Bounds Magazine.” It can be depended on to have a contrary view to any sort of conventional wisdom. It is edited by two hard working liberals who fancy themselves dissidents, Alexander Cockburn and Jeffrey St. Clair. St. Clair is Cockburn’s “assistant.”

    I have been reading Alex for years in the pages of “The Nation.” (“Nation” is an old, old, radical-liberal magazine published in the United States for close to a hundred years. Maybe more!)

    Cockburn is known, affectionally and satirically, as “The Last Marxist” and is referred to that way in the “Nation.” He can be counted on to have views that are meant to stir folks up. It’s very hard to take him seriously because he exaggerates so. I don’t recall him ever saying anything nice about anything.

    Although he lives in northern California (Petroila), home of the redwoods, hippy dropouts, and other assorted cranky types, he is a citizen of Ireland where his father was a famous Communist. Cockburn refers to himself as a red diaper baby. He’s most amusing, and I hope his screed isn’t taken too seriously.

    Justin
    April 6, 2005 - 03:36 pm
    I realize that Alex Cockburn is bent in an opposite direction from that of the mainstream but his cohort Connolly is saying some things that I hear from CNN's Brown and others on the Teley. John Paul's conservative actions have not been ignored. But they have been surpressed for the funeral. John Paul 2. will be judged by history just as Pius the 12th has been judged. That can not be avoided. We all know John Paul's positions on women, homosexals, priests who abuse children, celibacy, and progressive clerics. But HE APPOLOGIZED FOR THE ROLE OF THE CHURCH IN THE hOLOCAUST.That is a giant step in the right direction and he has my admiration for that honesty.

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 6, 2005 - 03:41 pm
    A heartfelt "thank you" to all who sent me emails about my son and the various offers to help me in one or another with SofC. I am like Mal in that I do better if I keep active in my usual manner. It is a form of therapy for me.

    Roland, who is 52 years old, was diagnosed last year with an inoperable brain tumor. They gave him approximately 13 months to live. He is not in any pain. When he has seizures, they are muscular seizures. His thinking is not impaired. For a year his right side has been partially paralyzed.

    However, this past month he has taken a turn for the worse. He went in and out of Hospice, going back home when he appeared able to take care of himself, and back again into Hospice when he was not. About a week ago he went into the Hospice again, this time apparently for good. His right side is now completely paralyzed. And his speech is affected because of the muscular connection. He knows what he wants to say but can't make his mouth and tongue do their job. We go through the equivalent of a game of charades and he becomes so frustrated because he can't get the words out.

    He is in bed almost all the time and cannot get out of bed without help by the Hospice staff. He is sleeping more and more and they tell me that he may possibly be blessed by dying quietly in his sleep. I spent half of Saturday, all of Sunday, and half of Monday just sitting by the bed, most of the time saying nothing because he was sleeping. When he was awake, we would often be hugging and crying. He knows he is dying.

    He has three daughters, Laurie, Christine, and Shelley. Laurie is the older one whom his wife already had when they married and whom he raised just like the other two but whom he never adopted. In this past month he suddenly got around to doing what he and his daughter have wanted for years but never got around to. Both Ro and his daughter have now signed adoption papers and all that is necessary is the judge's signature. That signature will probably be legal even if it happens after his death.

    The nurse says that the prognosis is poor and that he can die at any time. His three daughters wanted to see him but did not have the money to do so. Yesterday I bought two round trip tickets so they could see him. I say "two" because Shelley says she cannot bear to see him in his present condition. They all live near the Saratoga Springs area in New York State. Laurie and Chrissy will leave Albany airport around noon Friday (day after tomorrow) and return home Sunday evening. Hopefully Ro will still be alive so they can wrap their arms around each other.

    Last year he asked me to take care of his family and of course I would have even if he had not asked me. I now have three adult grandchildren and seven great-grandchildren to concentrate on.

    He will be cremated and, at his request, I will sprinkle his ashes on the Potomac River. He used to live in Virginia and is also very patriotic.

    And so you see, everybody, that these various responsibilities are keeping my mind off myself. I realize that I will never see him again, at least in bodily form, but I have memories of the strong bond we had, especially when he was young.

    Thanks to all of you for sharing your thoughts with me -- and let us get on with life.

    Robby

    kiwi lady
    April 6, 2005 - 04:18 pm
    Robby - You will have tender moments to remember as well as sad ones of this time you are spending with Roland. My two boys ran away to the USA when they knew their father was near death they could not face it. However recently they said to me it was a big regret they had not stayed. They wished they had. I hope your grandaughter will not regret her decision. I know my two daughters were such a comfort to their dad even when he was in and out of consciousness.

    You know we are all thinking of you and your family and especially I think of Roland.

    Carolyn

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 6, 2005 - 05:38 pm
    You may have covered this topic while I was away but I can not understand this overpowering love and respect being shown toward the POPE.

    A line of over a million people in a city that has only three million! An expected wait of 24 hours! And all that after traveling sometimes for thousands of miles and hours and hours and then for just the briefest 30 seconds seeing his remains. These people can't all be Roman Catholics.

    What was the common ground that appeared to touch people of all faiths and cultures?

    Robby

    kiwi lady
    April 6, 2005 - 05:48 pm
    Well for me it was the fact that he was not afraid to speak out about economic injustice and also that he was an avid pacifist.

    Carolyn

    Justin
    April 6, 2005 - 06:09 pm
    Bubble: Durant in "Caesar and Christ" says on page 512,"... and even till Hadrian children were now and then offered as sacrifices to the Gods."

    You are right, I think. When we are young organized groups pour things into us that gloss over reality and leave us with lasting but sometimes fictitious images of historical events. Adults seem to think that reality is too complex for young minds to grasp. So youth is spoon fed simplistic descriptions of real events.

    moxiect
    April 6, 2005 - 06:18 pm


    Robby,

    I'm extremely sorry for being late in extending "my heart" out to you in your time of need. It's a difficult time and very heart wrenching for anyone to endure. Just know you are not walking alone.

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    April 6, 2005 - 06:38 pm
    "What was the common ground that appeared to touch people of all faiths and cultures?"

    He was a hero, people need a hero to look up to. Now that he is dead, is there another hero like him somewhere to take his place?

    JoanK
    April 6, 2005 - 07:03 pm
    Robby: my heart and those of my family are with you and your son in this time of pain. You have indeed become like family to me in the time since I've met you.

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 6, 2005 - 07:25 pm
    I have often thought and I believe I have mentioned this before -- that nothing would please me more than for those of us here in SofC to have our own Bash -- and to some day get together for a couple of days and chat about anything at all -- even gibberish if that is what would please us.

    What the mind can conceive, one can achieve.

    Robby

    Jan Sand
    April 6, 2005 - 07:40 pm
    You are, of course, perfectly correct in your assessment of Counterpunch as prsenting articles that confront assumptions in society and that the writers frequently do go off the deep end in their criticism but the article on the pope presented facts, not opinions, and the facts do not uphold the pope as a beneficent and progressive leader. His policies on contraceptives alone which are directly responsible for enhancing the spread of deadly disease amongst the deprived are enough to question his judgement and the quality of his leadership. The facts presented in the article should be confronted as facts no matter who presented them.

    Fifi le Beau
    April 6, 2005 - 07:41 pm
    What was the common ground that appeared to touch people of all faiths and cultures?

    I would not attempt to speak for 'all' those people standing in line for hours and hours.

    I will however comment on the American contingent, especially those 'officially' representing the United States. George W. Bush and his wife in her black mourning veil, former Presidents Bush and Clinton, Condo Rice, and Andy Card. Not a catholic among them.

    Then we hear that Senator Bill Frist has commandeered a military plane along with Rep. Denny Hastert and Tom Delay (not a catholic among them) to bring a planeload of senators and representatives.

    I don't think this is about the Pope as much as it is about the television cameras, and a convenient distraction from the problems facing our country and the falling poll numbers.

    Most of these people would go to a 'barn door' opening if some one else paid for it, and there were enough television cameras there. The rest are lemmings, who when they see a group moving, get in line.

    Fifi

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 6, 2005 - 07:41 pm
    Let us continue with Judaic Civilization.

    "From these afflictions the Jews were saved for a moment by the accession of Julian.

    "He reduced their taxes, revoked discriminatory laws, lauded Hebrew charity, and acknowledged Yahveh as 'a great god.' He asked Jewish leaders why had abandoned animal sacrifice. When they replied that their law did not permit this except in the Temple at Jerusalem, he ordered that the Temple should be rebuilt with state funds.

    "Jerusalem was again opened to the Jews. They flocked to it from every quarter of Palestine, from every province of the empire. Men, women, and children gave their labor to the rebuilding, their savings and jewelry to the furnishing, of the new Temple. We can imagine the happiness of a people that for three centuries had prayed for this day (361).

    "But as the foundations were being dug, flames burst from the ground and burnt several workmen to death. The work was patiently resumed but a repetition of the phenomenon -- probably due to the explosion of natural gas -- interrupted and discouraged the enterprise. The Christians rejoiced at what seemed a divine prohibition. The Jews marveled and mourned.

    "Then came Julian's sudden death. State funds were withdrawn. the old restrictive laws were re-enacted and made more severe. The Jews again excluded from Jerusalem, returned to their villages, their poverty, and their prayers. Soon thereafter Jerome reported the Jewish population of Palestine as 'but a tenth part of their previous multitude.'

    "In 425 Theodosius II abolished the Palestinian patriarchate. Greek Christian churches replaced the synagogues and schools. After a brief outburst in 614 Palestine surrendered its leadership of the Jewish world."

    Your comments, please?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 6, 2005 - 07:43 pm
    A million lemmings, Fifi, with no incentive of their own?

    Robby

    Jan Sand
    April 6, 2005 - 07:47 pm
    I have not commented before this about the terrible loss of Mal and the difficulties of Robby because there is nothing I can say to alleviate the misery. I lost a son after a thirty year struggle with quadriplegia and associated difficulties and when he died the terrible event was too huge for any sensible comment. I have learned to live with it and I can only hope for the same capability in other people undergoing similar tragedies.

    winsum
    April 6, 2005 - 08:10 pm
    and his flock are just that . . . . sheep. nuff said. . . . good to have you back Robby and thank you for the blow by blow description . It makes it easier to "be with you". . . .

    as for a bash. I usually don't go, financial and energy constraints but who knows . . .I wouldn't rule it out with this crowd. . . . .Claire

    Persian
    April 6, 2005 - 08:19 pm
    With respect for other posters of perhaps different opinion, I'd like to add my comments about the late Pope John Paul II.

    Coming from a multicultural background, I have thought of Pope John Paul II as "the people's Pope," inclusive not only of those of the Roman Catholic faith (as expected), but as well as other denominations AND other faiths.

    In the past few days, I've spoken with Muslim and Jewish friends and colleagues, who share a high respect for John Paul's efforts in the global community, his personal charisma, and willingness to "reach out." Those of substantially different backgrounds with whom I talked were impressed with his "genuineness" in wanting to reach the "inner heart" of various people - even the man who attempted to assassinate him years ago. They also mentioned (several times) his willingness to confess the wrongs done by the Catholic Church in past centuries, as well as the acts of sexual perversion committed by clergy in contemporary times.

    I was particularly drawn to the comments of several Jewish friends, who recalled John Paul's lifelong devotion and remembrance to his Jewish friends in his childhood and youth - many of whom perished - and his continued sense of wanting to encourage an ongoing dialogue. In much the same way, our Muslim friends remembered that it was John Paul who established the office of the Catholic liaison with the Islamic world - something which had not been done previously - and closely monitored the interaction.

    Certainly, there is a "public awareness" as witnessed by the multiple thousands of people standing in line. However, my sense of the American government officials who traveled to Rome is NOT just for the cameras and their political party, but a realization that John Paul II was indeed a very special man to whom they wanted to pay their respect. Although we most often read or hear about these individuals and their actions through the news media, I believe they also are capable of showing an inner sense of respect for the dedication of John Paul throughout his Papacy, and the good that he has done in the world, regardless of whether they are Catholic or not.

    The comments of the many individuals (public officials, lifelong friends of John Paul, historians and members of the Papal Administration) featured on the several TV programs which I watched since the Pope's death last weekend clearly answered the question for me about WHY people would stand in line for many hours after traveling many hundreds of miles: John Paul II was a very special man; he touched peoples' hearts around the world; and they wanted to pay their own respects to him, even if only for a moment.

    Sunknow
    April 6, 2005 - 09:10 pm
    Jan - "The Late Pope" ---that's a pretty comprehensive list of criticisms of the Pope. None of them are surprising, but listed all together, they are very revealing.

    Tooki warns us they they may be "exaggerations ", and they likely are. But I am reading them in other places also.

    Justine reminds us that John Paul 2 "....appologized for the role of the church in the holocaust" and that it was a giant step in the right direction.

    True, but it's too bad he did not take a few more positive steps on some of those neglected positions of the church. He was a much loved man, much admired....but determined to not let the church be put in a bad light. Which, I feel, left some parts of the church in total darkness.

    Mahlia, Yes, I'm sure that the Pope has earned the respect for his dedication, and the good that he has done in the world. I'm sure you are right about that.

    But I'm afraid I believe that many things accomplished were more for the Church, than for the people.

    Note: May I say that I am in pain, just thinking about what Robby and Mal are going through right now. Several of you have told us that you have experienced the same tragedy. I cannot imagine losing a child. The thought of it takes my breath away, and leaves me gasping....but I admire both of you for knowing you must go on, and trying to put one step ahead of another. Walk slowly, but walk.....

    Sun

    Fifi le Beau
    April 6, 2005 - 09:33 pm
    Robby, I was home all last week-end and this week with the television on in the study, and I saw so many 'lemmings' interviewed that I eventually cut the television off. They come to the mikes and camera lights like a moth to a flame.

    Of course all those who stood in line for hours were not lemmings, but Catholic faithful. Rome alone could have turned out one million mourners or two or three.

    I predict that had they not cut off the viewing and the television cameras had remained, there would have been two or three million or maybe even more. It would no longer be about the Pope, but a mass movement of people similar to hysteria.

    Or lemmings.

    This post is not about the Pope or the Catholic Church. It is about a new phenomenon called lights, camera, action and twenty four hour a day news that causes people to drop everything to run toward that action. I saw a couple from Iowa who were not Catholic and knew nothing about the Pope, but had seen what was happening on television, and bought themselves a ticket to Rome and got in line. They had no place to stay, and little money but there they were.

    Fifi

    Jan Sand
    April 6, 2005 - 09:55 pm
    It is strange to hear criticism of humans who flock to some emotional demonstration. This seems to be a very basic reaction of a social species - a desire to partake of an emotional outpouring and probably no more significant than the crowds that regularly attend football or baseball games or parades. This is not to deny a large contingent of people who are genuinely emotionally affected whether or not I agree with their feelings.

    I avoid crowds and mass demonstrations but that is a very personal preference and evidently I am out of sync with most of humanity. But there is no denying that it is a reality of basic human psychology and probably reveals little genuine consideration of the circumstances.

    3kings
    April 6, 2005 - 10:15 pm
    JUSTIN Could you please point me to your source that leads you to believe that the Pope apologized to the Jews for the Catholics' "part in the Holocaust".

    I ask, because my wife, a Polish Catholic, disputes that the late Pope did anything of the kind. She tells me, and she has many books on the subject of Poles, the war, the relations between the Poles, Russians, Germans etc. that 3 million Polish Catholics perished in the German concentration camps along with three million Jews. This being so, the Pope, a Pole himself, could hardly have anything to apologize for. ...

    Pope John Paul 2nd was a conservative, with attitudes towards Women, contraception, etc. with which she does not agree. However she would be the first person to admire the Pope for apologizing to the Jews, had the need for such an apology ever arisen.

    Far from apologizing to the Jews, the Pope continually spoke out against the Jewish invasion of Palestine and Lebanon, and equally against the Palestinian terrorists. His attitude always was to censure the wrong doers on both sides.++ Trevor

    Justin
    April 6, 2005 - 10:19 pm
    There is a tremendous outpouring of love for this traditionally oriented, conservative Pope.In some ways it is not hard to understand. The lines at St. Peter's Basilica are miles long and contain Catholics and non catholics. They are relating to his public image rather than his Bulls and encyclicals.

    Carolyn speaks of his outspoken opposition to economic injustice and his pacifist inclinations.He apparently told the US president that he would rather he did not attack Irag. He faced down Castro and his bullies when he went to Cuba telling him he should allow people to practice their faith. He has reached out to some of the other religions in the world and tried to find common bond with a few. He told the leading Rabbi in Rome," Catholics and Jews should find things to do together.He did not try to convert the Rabbi as others have done. This Pope sought a different route.

    I hope the next Pope is able to find it in his interest to heal the wounds of Western Catholics and to make it possible for women to assume a clerical role in the religion. Vatican 11 gave Catholics so much that has not yet been implemented. The new Pope will have a full plate when he comes to the Papal cathedra.

    Justin
    April 6, 2005 - 10:43 pm
    Trevor; I will try to find formal sources for you but mine are personal this time. I recall the events appearing in the newspaprs a few years ago and now, while watching the current events unfolding on Tv a leading Roman Rabbi in an interview confirmed the apology. We should with the help of the internet be able to get to the core of the story. I think the apology occurred while the Pope was in Treblinka or perhaps Auschwitz a few years ago. I can, in fact,recall the Pope doing personal pennance as part of the apology.

    I had not previously heard that 3 million Polish Catholics had died in the camps. That is something, I think, that is not generally known. It would be nice if your wife could tell us more on that topic.

    Jan Sand
    April 6, 2005 - 10:59 pm
    Since we are into Jewish history it might be informative to discover who is a Jew. According to several Google sites, a Jew is anyone who has had a Jewish mother or has undergone formal conversion. The sites also state that once one is a Jew, one always remains a Jew. So, religious or not, the Jewishness sticks. Therefore there are Jewish atheists and agnostics. And, I suppose, at least theoretically, there are Jewish Catholics, Muslims, and Bhuddists.

    Jan Sand
    April 6, 2005 - 11:10 pm
    This site clarifies what the pope felt it was worthwhile apologising for.

    http://free.freespeech.org/americanstateterrorism/bibliographies/VaticanNazis.htm

    DanielDe
    April 7, 2005 - 12:58 am
    I wrote an email to Robby concerning his family situation. Daniel

    DanielDe
    April 7, 2005 - 12:58 am
    Robby’s last post mentioned that some attempts had been made at reconstructing the Temple around 361 AD, but they failed. This points to the fact that, in the Jewish tradition, forgiveness is obtained through blood sacrifice. But without a temple, the tradition had to evolve. Apparently, there were many Jewish sects; the only one to have survived the destruction of the temple in time is the sect of the Rabbis, descendants of the Pharisees. They transformed the cult into an oral tradition, which was a rigorous interpretation of the Law of Moses. This oral tradition was later put in writing and it gave the Talmud.

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 7, 2005 - 04:29 am
    We are all aware of the fact and I see it constantly in my patients that we carry our childhood "baggage" with us. As already mentioned, the Pope grew up surrounded by Jews, on the one side watching the Nazi atrocities and on the other side living under Soviet oppression. Previous Popes, all of them Italian, did not have that influence. He could not escape being affected by "man's inhumanity to man." As he slipped that note into the Temple wall (a shot shown often on TV), I would guess that many thoughts blended in his mind -- memories of childhood friends plus memories of historical facts he had read of Catholic-Jewish relationships. Italian Popes knew of these things third hand. This Pope lived them.

    I would submit that it will make all the difference in the world as to whether the upcoming Pope will be Italian or from another culture e.g. African or South American.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 7, 2005 - 04:48 am
    The Pope's effect on CHINA.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 7, 2005 - 04:59 am
    Are the Eastern and Western descendants of the ROMAN EMPIRE coming together due to the Pope's reaching out?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 7, 2005 - 05:19 am
    The GREEN quotes above show the direction in which we are going.

    "The Jews could hardly be blamed if they hoped to fare better in less Christian lands. Some moved east into Mesopotamia and Persia and reinvigorated that Babylonian Jewry which had never ceased since the Captivity of 597 B.C.

    "In Persia too the Jews were excluded from state office. But as all Persians except the nobility were likewise excluded, there was less offense in the restriction. And there were several persecutions of Jews in Persia.

    "But taxation was less severe, the government was normally co-operative and the exilarch, or head of the Jewish community, was recognized and honored by the Persian kings.

    "The soil of Iraq was then irrigated and fertile. The Jews there became prosperous farmers as well as clever traders. Some, including famous scholars, grew rich by brewing beer. The Jewish communities in Persia multiplied rapidly for Persian law permitted, and the Jews practiced, polygamy for reasons that we have seen under Mohammedan law. The good rabbis Rab and Nahman, when traveling, were accustomed to advertise in each city for temporary wives to give local youth an exemplar of marimonial, as against a promiscuous life.

    "In Nehardea, Sura, and Pumbeditha schools of higher education rose whose scholarship and rabbinical decisions were honored throughout the Dispersion."

    Any comments about the Exiles?

    Robby

    DanielDe
    April 7, 2005 - 05:52 am
    Jacques Attali, Professor, International Consultant, Author, used to be a personal adviser to François Miterrand. He was the First President of the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development. He was interviewed today on France Television and he had this to say about Pope John Paul II:

    "At the time that Pope John Paul was elected, there was a start of the Globalization process, on three fronts: markets, terrorism and ethics. John Paul’s world wide papacy was a response to the demand for a global ethics. Indeed, the Catholic Church is a world wide non governmental organization. George Bush is today representative of the Globalization of markets, and Bin Laden represents terrorism. John Paul’s ethics met George Bush’s and that may be an explanation of his presence at the funeral."

    If you are interested in knowing more about Attali, his personal website contains an english version : www.attali.com.

    DanielDe
    April 7, 2005 - 06:33 am
    For the Jews that are still honouring God’s covenant with Abraham, through the Law of Moses, the only consistent position is one where they live in Israel, under a Jewish political authority and practising the ordinances of their faith under the guidance of the Levites (priests), where the Temple plays a central role as the House where God inhabits. Being in exile is very humiliating. They are deprived of all the most basic elements of their identity, save the written documents establishing the covenant and its rules. The return of Israel as a politically recognized country - with their original language - is a partial return of their dignity.

    One must acknowledge that their persistent faith over many centuries, even in the face of such formidable opposition, seemingly emanating from their own God, says something.

    Jan Sand
    April 7, 2005 - 07:10 am
    Undoubtedly a uniform culture had something to do with the endurance of the Jews as a separate entity but probably just as or more important to their survival was the determined persecution of them by almost everybdy else to the extent of forcing them to live in ghettos and restricting their opportunities. In the USA where the anti-semitism persisted past the Second World War, the decrease of persecution has encouraged integration to the extent that there is some alarm that marriages between Jews and non-Jews is causing a large decrease in traditional Jewish culture.

    tooki
    April 7, 2005 - 08:45 am
    I’m still trying to understand the importance of the Temple historically and today. Daniel’s post 940 makes the point that without a temple Jewish traditions had to evolve. I think it happened like this.

    Briefly, Aaron, brother of Moses, was the first high priest. His descendents, the House of Aaron, constituted the priesthood. All sacrifices and rituals had to be performed in the Temple. The rabbis were teachers or sages not connected to the priesthood, but exerting much influence.

    When the temple was destroyed the existence of Jewish life was imperiled because all Jewish ritual depended on the existence of the temple. To the rescue came the rabbis. They changed the ritual so Jewish customs could continue regardless of the temple.

    The rabbis, who had started out as teachers or sages whose thoughts are embodied in the Talmud, are today much like clergy in other religions. They have pastoral duties, but they remain philosophically orientated and sage like.

    Have I missed anything? Oh, right: apparently the priests just disappeared.

    Bubble
    April 7, 2005 - 12:32 pm
    I have been absent for one day with visitors from abroad. So much has been posted here that I will have to go back for the links given.

    I just want to add one line about Robby suggestion of a SoC bash. I will be in NC at the end of August05. Hopefully I will meet Mal and Robby. I doubt I'll manage another such long trip again soon after that. Bubble

    winsum
    April 7, 2005 - 01:07 pm
    Always a Jew? Hitler would have thought so, but as an atheist I prefer not to continue to be one. . . . Claire

    Bubble
    April 7, 2005 - 01:55 pm
    Claire, apparently it is not a choice nor a question of belief, but a question of birth like being white - or any other hue - skinned. Jean Marie Cardinal Lustiger, Archbishop of Paris, is still called a Jew converted to Catholicism.

    http://www.hackwriters.com/Lustiger.htm

    Justin
    April 7, 2005 - 02:25 pm
    Once a Jew always a Jew is an interesting definition. How about Christians?.Once baptised always a Christian. So we get Christian Jews and Christian atheists. How about Christian Muslims? This definition for a Jew ( or a Catholic or a Muslim) based on the religion of the mother or baptism, or circumcision, is nonsense.

    The definition takes religious identity and orientation out of the hands of the practitioner and gives it to parents who decide one's faith.One may be doomed by parental decision making with no hope of independent selection. It is clear that many people are born and bred in a religion and choose to remain so in later life. Many not giving the affiliation much thought at all.

    We may be on the cusp of another reason for the persistance of the idea of God. Parental selection preordains subsequent generations in established belief systems. The new generations can't avoid it. Mother gave it to me. I've been baptised. These are the deciding phrases. Not I like it therefore I will adopt it.

    Jan
    April 7, 2005 - 02:32 pm
    I've been reading the reasons for the huge crowds drawn to Rome, and I think one of the basic reasons has been neglected. The chance to be part of History, to tell your Grandchildren that you were there when this event took place. I've heard so many people on TV saying, "I was there when the Berlin Wall came down. I was part of History."

    Bubble
    April 7, 2005 - 02:32 pm
    Studies of Cohens and Levites

    http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/abstracts-cohen-levite.html

    There is now new and exciting DNA evidence for common Jewish origin -- not just among Cohanim, the Priestly Class, but among Jews scattered all over the globe.

    http://www.aish.com/societywork/sciencenature/Jewish_Genes.asp

    3kings
    April 7, 2005 - 02:57 pm
    Justin I think we have found the source of our confusion re the Pope and the Holocaust.

    When the Pope, after many attempts, was allowed by the Jews to visit Jerusalem, he prayed at the Temple wall. In this prayer he apologized for the behaviour of the Roman Church over the centuries up till about 1750.

    Before this time, Church dignitaries acting in their office as Cardinals and Priests, did at times sanction persecution of the Jews. But around this time deliberate persecution by the Church had died out. I am speaking here of those places where the Catholic Church had influence. Secular Authorities still at times held Pogroms as in Nazi occupied Europe in the 1940's.

    But I repeat, the Pope could not apologize for the Church's behaviour during the Holocaust, as Catholics were as much the victims as were the Jews. In fact, many Poles (and other nationalities,) ended up in the concentration camps precisely because they were caught trying to help those Jews living in their midst.

    Concentration camps held as many non-Jews, as they did Jews. ===Trevor

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 7, 2005 - 03:12 pm

    I know one young Jewish male who does not fit into this DNA category. My 13 year old grandson, Ellery, whose great grandfather was a rabbi in St. Augustine, Florida, had a father, my dead son, Rob, who was not Jewish. I'm sure Ellery is a very good Jew, though.

    There is to be a family gathering for my dead son at the home of his father in Massachusetts this coming Sunday. My remaining son, Christopher, his wife and two children, my granddaughter Megan and my grandson Morgan (Rob's other children), Morgan's mother, Megan's boyfriend, my former husband and his wife, and my daughter Dorian all will be there. I won't. My new cat, Bibby Baben, and I will be here at the same old stand. I posted in WREX this morning that I'd be as welcome as a skunk at a lawn party at such an event.

    I am thinking of going out to lunch someday at a restaurant I know which has a patio and tables outside with flowers all around and buying my dead son the biggest stein of beer they serve. It will be there on the table with a pack of cigarettes while my daughter and I have lunch, and it and the cigarettes will be there when we leave. That will be my goodbye.

    Mal

    winsum
    April 7, 2005 - 03:18 pm
    denotes race and culture rather than religion. I've always been aware of that. There are all different races of Jews now but originally I think they were either sefardic or Russian or German )ashkenazi? spelling) anyhow mine are German, but according to Alan Dershowitze in his book PHUTsPA (spelling?) THE JEWS in Germany came from Russia. . . and the Poles especially the catholic ones suffered as did the jews there. confusing isn't it.

    sometimes I think my backgrund probably does have an affect on me as in love of learning and attention to the arts etc. but there are baptists who are that way too. so o o o Claire

    Sunknow
    April 7, 2005 - 03:30 pm
    Mal - That's one grand Finale..!!

    Sun

    Justin
    April 7, 2005 - 04:22 pm
    Mal: Trevor and I are trying to figure out what John Paul's apology consisted of and whether he commented in some apologetic way for the Church's passive role during the Holocaust. There have been several references in TV interviews to his apology during the wake. But the exact details elude us. Can you help?

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    April 7, 2005 - 04:33 pm
    Mal, I am sorry that you will be left out of the family's gathering. That must really hurt.

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 7, 2005 - 05:21 pm
    What is the procedure if a POPE RESIGNS.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 7, 2005 - 06:04 pm
    "The dispersion of the Jews continued through all the Mediterranean lands.

    "Some went to join old Jewish communities in Syria and Asia Minor. Some went to Constantinople despite the hostility of Greek emperors and patriarchs.

    "Some turned south from Palestine into Arabia -- dwelt in peace and religious freedom with their Arab fellow-Semites -- occupied whole regions like Khaibar -- almost equaled the Arabs in Yathrib (Medina) -- made many converts -- and prepared the Arab mind for the Judaism of the Koran.

    "Some crossed the Red Sea into Abyssinia, and multiplied so rapidly there that in 315 they were reputed to be half the population.

    "Jews controlled half the shipping of Alexandria, and their prosperity in that excitable city fed the flames of religious animosity."

    Apparently nothing angers people more than being successful.

    And did everyone get that phrase "Arab fellow-Semites?" What happened to that peace between them?

    Robby

    Jan Sand
    April 7, 2005 - 06:16 pm
    One of the constant elements in Jewish culture seems to be their apparently innate capability to rise to an enviable level of commercial and probably intellectual success as a subordinate component of society. Perhaps this is evolution at work. The Jewish tradition of strong devotion to study combined with the adverse forces of an unfriendly social environment would either destroy a social group or force it to develop strengths to enhance its survival potentials.

    Additionally, religious constrictions of both early Christianity and Islam in the matter of manipulations of monetary capital endowed the Jews with a corner on credit fuctions to their advantage and social disparagement.

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 7, 2005 - 06:55 pm

    JUSTIN, no, I can't help. I have some very complicated publishing work lined up to get me through the weekend, and I won't have time for much else, except perhaps for a little work on my book.

    Mal

    Justin
    April 7, 2005 - 07:03 pm
    Jan: Innate?

    Jan Sand
    April 7, 2005 - 08:01 pm
    Perhaps historically persistant would have been a better term although some would claim innate.

    tooki
    April 7, 2005 - 08:18 pm
    Justin and Trevor,

    Here are SOME SITES that seem to have conflicting accounts of the so called apology. I giving you all the selections so you can determine for yourselves the truth of the matter. Just click on the blue underlined headings to get to the site.

    Fifi le Beau
    April 7, 2005 - 08:21 pm
    Justin, here is an article from the BBC that contains in the body of the article the full speech of the Pope's visit to Yad Vashem.

    From the article, "For many, Jew and Catholic alike, the longed for apology was acted out, even if not spoken"

    I was surprised that the Pope had acted some, and even considered becoming an actor. Maybe he did.

    The acting Pope

    Fifi

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 7, 2005 - 08:41 pm

    Cardinal Arns of Brazil on Pope John Paul II, the Vatican and the poor

    tooki
    April 7, 2005 - 08:45 pm
    Durant comments, "Some Jews became rich by brewing beer." It wasn't easy finding something about that. I had to be content with this brief account.

    Sunknow
    April 7, 2005 - 09:15 pm
    March 13, 2000

    "Pope's apology to Jews ranks as most significant for church Some Jewish leaders hoped papal amends would be more specific

    By Detroit News wire services

    VATICAN CITY -- Pope John Paul's plea for God's forgiveness for the Catholic Church's past sins -- including its treatment of Jews, heretics and women -- is one of the most significant acts of his papacy.

    It was the first time in the history of the Church that one of its leaders has sought such a sweeping pardon for past sins.

    "For the role that each one of us has had, with his behavior, in these evils, contributing to a disfigurement of the face of the Church, we humbly ask forgiveness," the Pope said.

    His plea for forgiveness was a personal landmark for a frail, ailing pope, who vowed to cleanse and reinvigorate Catholicism for its third millennium.

    The church burned heretics at the stake during the Inquisition. Armies of the faithful slaughtered Muslims during the Crusades. During the Holocaust, some Catholics stood silent in the face of Nazi genocide. Many Jewish groups allege Pope Pius XII turned a blind eye to the Nazi extermination of 6 million Jews in World War II.

    There was no specific reference in the pope's homily or in the general prayers read by him and by top Vatican cardinals to Pope Pius or to the Holocaust.

    But in his prayer, the pope did say:

    "We are deeply saddened by the behavior of those who in the course of history have caused these children of Yours (the Jews) to suffer, and asking Your forgiveness we wish to commit ourselves to genuine brotherhood with the people of the Covenant."

    Some ranking Jewish leaders in Israel and the U.S. had hoped for more. ........."

    http://www.detnews.com/2000/religion/0003/13/A12-15167.htm

    winsum
    April 7, 2005 - 10:58 pm
    would the church be doomed to HELL for its' sins even as a person would be? The CHURCH has been personified as a living entity so why not. But who expects consistency from any religious doctrine. . . Claire

    Jan Sand
    April 7, 2005 - 11:10 pm
    The Church seems quite adept to develop policies, (judging from its past), to create hell right here on Earth. No need to send it anywhere.

    Justin
    April 7, 2005 - 11:55 pm
    Trevor and Mal sent me on a quest. What actions of the Church did John Paul 11 apologize for specifically and how well directed was the apology?. Did it include the Holocaust and current sins against children?

    John Paul made several apologies. He made one in March, 1998. He made another in March 2000 and a third in November, 2001.

    In 1998 a document was issued called, "We Remember, A Reflection on the Shoah."

    In 2000 at the Holocaust Memorial in Israel he delivers a Homily and a document is released called, " Memory and Reconciliation" and subtitled,"The Church and Faults of the Past."

    In both documents an apology is offered on behalf of the sons and daughters of the Church. But not on behalf of the Church as an institution. This distinction is quite important. The Church sees itself as both a composition of members and also as an institution which is pure, and holy. It apologizes for the deeds of it's members but not for the actions of the institution which are infallible and emanate from Christ.

    Here is a quote from the Documents. "...the church should become ever more conscious of the sinfulness of her children, recalling all those times in history when they departed from the spirit of Christ and his Gospel. ... Hostility and wariness of numerous Christians toward Jews over the course of time is a painful historic fact."

    It is thought by some observers that "Hostility and wariness" refers to the instructions of Church leaders to burn hundreds of thousands of Jews alive.

    Father Bruques, one of the authors of the documents said,"We have had to purify memmory without talking about responsibility."

    Here is another quote from one of the Homilies delivered by John Paul 11. "We are asking pardon for the divisions among Christians, for the use of violence that some have committed in the service of truth and for attitudes of mistrust and hostility assumed toward followers of other religions." A request for forgiveness is included.

    These quotes contain the core of the apologies. The last quote seems to be refering to 2000 years of abuse of Jews as well as the Holocaust though no specific event is named.

    In November 2003 the Pope issued a message to Oceana and included in that document an apology for sex abuse.

    In responding to Trevor, I say this." I think one can say that the Pope apologized to the Jews for past abuses of its clerical members. Since the message was delivered in 2000, I must assume he included the Holocaust though his message did not specically identify the Holocaust.

    Were the words of the apology adequate to cover the nature of the Church's past sins? I think only the uninjured among us would think the apology was adequate. But it was an apology and it is the first time in history a Pope has done that. I think there will be more apologies in the future. Perhaps, more specific.

    One question remains. Was the Pope non specific in his apology concerning the Holocaust because Polish Catholics were also killed in the camps? I don't think so. Catholics were killed for heroic reasons. They protected Jews. They were not killed because they were Catholic. Jews on the other hand were killed because they were Jews.

    Jan Sand
    April 8, 2005 - 12:26 am
    Perhaps I am naive but I find it hard to distinguish between the policy makers of an organization and the empty abstract of the organization itself. How can an organization divest itself of the responsibility of the actions of its members?

    DanielDe
    April 8, 2005 - 12:39 am
    In the link that Fifi le Beau provided, it is reported that "In 1993, the Vatican gave diplomatic recognition to Israel, and in 1998 he formally apologised for the failure of Catholics to help Jews during the Holocaust." This is confirmed in the news article linked by sunknow.

    The subject came up many times afterwards and it will continue to. But the Vatican cannot repeat its apology over and over again, and in the form that every one would prefer, lest it would be judged as lacking in basic intellectual and political acumen. Formal apologies were given, they are recorded in history, and it is understood that forgiveness was granted - this settling the matter once and for all. There is no reason for returning to this matter in a formal manner, though it may be a subject for conversation again and again, as the Holocaust will not be erased from history as well as regrets about what one should have done.

    DanielDe
    April 8, 2005 - 01:15 am
    Justin’s presentation of the facts is revealing. Mention is made of the infallibility of the Church. I don’t know if this is Justin’s perception or if it comes out of the document itself. In my opinion, an institution is run by men who are not perfect and are fallible. To claim that an institution is infallible says that it thinks the men who run it are also, and that for me reveals an inconsistency that will impact many dimensions of the Church’s work. Such inconsistency is bound to have many consequences that will be difficult if not impossible to reconcile in the end.

    Bubble
    April 8, 2005 - 01:42 am
    Justin, Trevor is right! I knew as fact that here we considered JPII never apologized. I could not remember the circumstances. When Trevor mentionned the dates, it "clicked" and I remembered the endless dicussions I had with a Bologna pen friend about the Pope's wording for his apology and how it would not overcome the breech between the two faiths.

    At the time there was much bitterness expressed for the role of Pius XII. The fact that many Polish ,Jews or not,were rounded up by the Nazis too, has nothing to do with the Church's offering an apology. If you acted wrongly toward someone, you would apologize even if a third party did the same to you, wouldn't you?

    Life goes on.

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 8, 2005 - 03:36 am
    In the 12-step program there is a step which is called "making amends." This is not considered the same as an apology. Consider a man who for years under the influence of alcohol borrowed thousands of dollars from a friend but never bothered to return any of it. Now he is on the road to recovery. He realizes what he has done and goes to see his friend.

    He apologizes to his friend. That is all well and good but now what? He can leave his friend's house and do nothing further. Or he can say:-"I am going to give you $200 a month and will continue to do so until my debt is paid off." That is making amends. In other words, in some form rectifying the original wrongfulness.

    The 12-step program also emphasizes that the important acts here are the apology and the making of amends. How they are received is utterly irrelevant. The person receiving the apology could say:-"Big deal! Where were you all that time when I needed that money?" or "I understand and I accept your apology." The important act was the baring of the soul, the contriteness, the sharing of an inner feeling of guilt and then the correcting of the original mistake through some sort of action. The action of sharing was the healing process regardless of the reactions of others.

    There has been a discussion here as to whether the Church has apologized. Apparently it has, through its Pope, even if not to the extent wished by others. Perhaps a better question might be:-"Is it making amends?" Is it making amends regarding the Inquisition, regarding sexual abuse, and other acts now considered wrongful? And just how can it go about doing this?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 8, 2005 - 03:54 am
    Is the need for an APOLOGY OR AMEND in the eye of the beholder?

    Robby

    Jan Sand
    April 8, 2005 - 04:04 am
    A commercial civilization that deals in value on a basis of money tends to think that any damage can be repaired by monetary payment. I doubt that the death of one's family in a concentration camp can be made acceptable by the apology of an organization that had any part in that tragedy. The world may be a bit better off if the organization behaves better in the future but the history of organizations is not encouraging.

    The cry "never again" was not particularly effective in Ruanda nor now in Darfur.

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 8, 2005 - 04:33 am
    How far should one go in SEPARATING CHURCH AND STATE?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 8, 2005 - 04:42 am
    Meanwhile, as we discuss this age of Faith, back in BRAZIL.

    Robby

    Bubble
    April 8, 2005 - 05:37 am
    #980. I am not surprised that he received such a position as celebrating now a world viewed mass. It must be infuriating for the victims.

    Jan Sand
    April 8, 2005 - 05:46 am
    Thee are fundamental conflicts in the interaction of church and state. An acceptable democratic state permits and encourages dissension and a great variety of opinion in order that solutions to problems may be sorted out by rational discussions of means and consequences. A religion by definition extols belief in a collection of fundamental concepts that must be accepted without question. Beyond that, a state which contains a population which contains more than one religion cannot demand adherence to the beliefs of any particular one without offending the others. Conflicts between religions are commonly not resolvable when their faith based beliefs challenge each other as faith is not rational.

    tooki
    April 8, 2005 - 06:47 am
    There has been activity in the United States to make restitution to descendents of slaves. I have heard folks say, "Why should I be responsible for something I didn't do." The issue keeps coming and going, although not given much media attention. There was a court case in which the defense was that the defendant had been traumatized by recollections of slavery, thus committed the crime. I thought it a better defense than insanity.

    Somewhere, in all these centuries, I'm sure the Church was also involved in the slave trade, if even just turning a blind eye.

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    April 8, 2005 - 07:53 am
    I appreciate the tolerance in these past postings, it is the only way to get anywhere in a discussion having so many people of different opinions.

    Asking for forgiveness is the first step towards the making of amends and the mere asking for forgiveness has to come from love, otherwise it means nothing and amends need to follow to prove it was sincere. This time around, the world will be watching for signs of amends through the eyes of the television camera, which is unforgiving. Whether these amends will satisfy everybody we should forget that, but they need to be as significant as the fault that needed forgiveness.

    I doubt that Jean Paul 11 would have taken that unprecendent step in the name of the Catholic church for self glorification. He was setting an example for everybody to follow whether they were Catholic or not. He was an example that the heads of state should emulate.

    Éloïse

    DanielDe
    April 8, 2005 - 08:04 am
    From my point of view, to see a cardinal that has resigned on account of covering up sexual misbehaviour, being given a place of honour in full knowledge of and in spite of such acts, reveals a state of mind about the organization up to the top. One must allow for the possible repentance of such a person, but some damages cannot be repaired. A proportional response could be that those who are guilty of damages that cannot be repaired, cannot be granted the same privileges as those who have abstained from such behaviour, even if they have repented and apologized. That for me would be making amends. A lack of fairness in this area reveals a state of mind - a worldview - which condones the misbehaviour and makes the entire hierarchy guilty of it.

    Jan Sand
    April 8, 2005 - 08:10 am
    The forgiveness requested by the pope is as significant as the Catholic Church's recent recognition that Galileo had a point and the Earth really does revolve around the Sun.

    The Germans have, to a large degree, settled their consciences with the Jews as they did participate in the persecution of the Jews to a horrible degree. And the Catholic Church was for centuries equally responsible for the misery of the Jews in Catholic areas. The pope's feeble apology without a thorough condemnation of of the church officials and the policies they carried out does not give me much satisfaction.

    DanielDe
    April 8, 2005 - 08:28 am
    I must recognize that, in spite of my love of France, they have gone over the bend when it comes to the subject of laity. They have passed legislation forbidding ostentatious demonstrations of religious belief in public. It was the veils of Muslim girls in schools that brought about this legislation. But the effect of it does not stop at Islamic clothes. It aims at any religion. The outspokenness of the French left and of the Freemasons against the public demonstration of sympathy towards the Catholics on account of the pope’s death, takes its root in the legislation on laity. The fact that the Freemasons get involved in a debate that tends to rebuke the government, indicates that they probably took a large part in writing up the legislation. It is very significant that a so called "philosophical society" would openly take such a public stance - going as far as asking for a meeting with the Minister in order to convey their CONCERN. To me, this tends to show that in France the roll back of one basic freedom has begun.

    DanielDe
    April 8, 2005 - 02:53 pm
    I should clarify one point. The ostentatious demonstration of religious belief is forbidden in schools and other public funded areas, not all public areas. But the opposition to public officials’ sympathy towards Catholics shows the direction that was intended.

    In Italy, no students or teachers would be offended in any way by the fact that a Muslim girl would wear a veil. In England, Hindu policemen wear their turban. And in America, if a Muslim woman wants to be examined by a woman doctor instead of a man, hospitals will be happy to comply with her wish. In France, those basic liberties either are or will shortly be no longer admitted.

    DanielDe
    April 8, 2005 - 03:18 pm
    Separating Church and State certainly means that there would be no theocracy. It could be a democracy or a mix with other forms of government. However, there is a necessity to establish ethical rules of behaviour. The Law of Moses was such a code of behaviour; the code of Hamurabi in Ancient times, and Islamic Law today, are also codes of behaviour. The attitude towards women in particular is an area where many differences between these codes appear. The area of interest on loans is another domain where differences may appear.

    Separating Church and State means that the decision makers will not base their decisions on a "revelation from heaven" directly. But they have the freedom to make laws that will set a framework for order in society, in a way that is consistent with the general beliefs of the citizens.

    If public officials show sympathy towards a segment of the population, this only demonstrates the necessary compassion that elected officials must manifest in the face of tragic events that affect the nation. This is what politicians do. They manifest the compassion that the nation as a whole should manifest, if it is a compassionate nation. This has nothing to do with religion, but everything to do with being human, simply.

    Scrawler
    April 8, 2005 - 03:33 pm
    It is my understanding from my early childhood studies as a Catholic that the Pope himself is infallible, not the church. So if he is infallible, than why did he have to apologize? It was this "infallibility" of the Pope that caused the Greek church to break away from the early Christian church. That and the fact that priests can marry in the Greek church.

    As I watched the Pope's funeral today I couldn't help think that I was watching history in the making. I can't help but wonder who the next Pope will be and what his views will be and what a difference to the world they will be.

    Jan Sand
    April 8, 2005 - 03:49 pm
    Although I find no objection to the display of religious symbols in the general public, it seems ironic that forbidding the display is considered persecution in France whereas forcing the display of the star of David under Nazi Germany is considered persecution. I understand the difference of motive but it seems history has a wry sense of humor.

    Justin
    April 8, 2005 - 03:51 pm
    Three issues seem to remain.

    1. Is it possible for an institution to have an identity separate from its membership?

    2. Is there an infallibility characteristic in the "Church"?

    3. Is the Church making amends and if so, in what way?

    It is clear, that the Church recognizes two entities in it's composition. One is that of a holy institution that emanates from Christ through Saint Peter to John Paul. It is infallible. It is pure. It is holy. It includes the message of that institution. The second entity is the human composition of that institution.

    WE find this separation alluded to in the documents of apology. The documents talk about the sins of the sons and daughters of the Church. The faults of the institution of the Church are not mentioned because the Church is thought to be infallible. How can Christ be guilty of these sins? Christ is a concept. (Jesus was a man.)

    The Pope is said to be infallible when it comes to pronouncements about faith and morals. He is the institution. Is he fallible in other things? Yes, I think so. But I am not an expert on the falibility doctrine. This argument lets the institution off the hook. It does not let the lesser nobility off the hook. They are the "sons and daughters" found in the apology documents.I find it hard however, to dismiss the institution when it resides in the Pope. Pius 12 was guilty of silence while the Jews were punished for their execution of Jesus.That is wrongful. The institution might argue that "silence" is not a pronouncement of "faith and morals" and therefore the institution was not involved. Well, here I am discussing the number of angels that reside on the head of a pin.

    The question of amends is an aspect of the apology that is least well presented. On the one hand we have no evident plan for making restitution. the very opposite appears to be happening. Pope Pius 12 has I think reached the pre - beatification stage. Bernard Law is elevated. The wrong doers are praised.

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    April 8, 2005 - 04:38 pm
    I have a feeling that the Catholic religion will never be the same again. He shook the foundation of every large institutions in the world including his own. This pope marked his time more than any other man and he will be as important a historical figure as the Caesars that preceded him. But in my view he knew in his heart he was not infaillible and that is why he felt compelled to apologize for the past mistakes of the church.

    Shasta Sills
    April 8, 2005 - 05:11 pm
    Interesting discussion. I appreciate the research that you others did concerning the Pope's apology. I would have been too lazy to do it myself, but I'm a little better informed now due to your efforts.

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 8, 2005 - 05:23 pm
    All you ever wanted to know about PAPAL INFALLIBILITY.

    Robby

    winsum
    April 8, 2005 - 05:30 pm
    and apologies are never enough. . . . Claire

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 8, 2005 - 05:39 pm
    ELECTION PREPARATIONS in the wings.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 8, 2005 - 05:47 pm
    The funeral ceremonies and its aftermath like a ROCK CONCERT?

    Robby

    3kings
    April 8, 2005 - 05:57 pm
    There seems to be mistrust, by the Jews, of the Catholic church, particularly its Polish sections, for not apologizing to the Jewish people for the Holocaust. As I have mentioned, the church did not carry out the atrocities, and as many Polish Catholics as Jews, also suffered in the same killing grounds.

    Perhaps they have forgotten, or do not remember, there were other killing places where Poles and Jews died together in their thousands. I refer to the fate of 1.5 million people taken from Poland to the Russian mines and forests. My wife and her family were among them. Her uncle was shot along with 27000 others buried at Katyn, and her young brother died of starvation and neglect in Siberia.

    It would be stupid for my wife and the other survivors to now demand an apology from the Jewish church for their suffering, because of what the Russians did. The Jews were in no way responsible for that horror, and many Jews perished along with the Poles.

    So, in like vein, why do many Jews demand an apology from the Catholics for what the Nazis did ? It is a demand that just does not make sense. ++ Trevor

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 8, 2005 - 06:08 pm
    Consider the POWER OF APOLOGY.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 8, 2005 - 06:14 pm
    The elements of MAKING AMENDS.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 8, 2005 - 07:41 pm
    Once again we have reached the 1000th posting (for the fourth time). As soon as we are moved into the archive listed in the Heading, be sure to click onto Subscribe and we will continue as usual.

    Robby

    Justin
    April 8, 2005 - 09:34 pm
    Trevor: I don't think Jews are asking for an apology from Catholics.I think Jews and Catholic laity should ask for an apology from the Holy See. Not from Catholics. Pius the 12th's refusal to act to quell the Nazis in 1934, 1935 and 1936 when they were attacking available scapegoats is the sin for which an apology is due. Instead they formed a pact with the Nazi's, they say, because they wanted an ally against Russian Communism. It was Cardinal Pacelli who was Papal Nuncio to Germany at the time who carried out the diplomatic mission with Hitler. This was the moment to stop this man who was giving evidence of his contempt for Jews. It was Pacelli, called Pius the 12th who watched this contempt, fostered by the Church, grow into indiscriminant killing on a mass scale. Perhaps, all of us who participated in WW11, should take issue with the Holy See for failing to stop Hitler when he was stoppable.

    winsum
    April 8, 2005 - 09:45 pm
    I still feel apologetic about dropping the atom bomb on two cities in Japan. Sure it ended the war but at what a price? . . . .and then there were the detention camps for American citizens of Japanese decent. . . We have plenty of our own garbage to mull over. . . . Claire

    Jan Sand
    April 8, 2005 - 11:21 pm
    The business of apologies is rather ludicrous and hypocritical at best and idiotic at worst as if a few sentences could possibly wipe away the harm that powerful organizations commit on people as it befits their interests.

    The Catholic Church is guilty of centuries of disgusting behavior. The USA with its atomic destruction and its history of slavery and persecution of Latin Americans and blacks and people from Asia, with its anti-poor and anti-labor laws has much to answer for. The Belgians with its history of massacre in the Congo, The British with their history in India, China, Ireland, The various religious factions in the Middle East and far East, The communist governments in Russia and the far East, the corporations that knowingly produced asbestos, the Union Carbide affair in Bhopal and so on back to the early Homo Sapiens chopping up the Neanderthals and probably vice-versa.

    Humanity has always (and probably always will) acted in the best pragmatic interests of its specific component groups and this inability to comprehend that we are all in the same hellbent handbasket will put a final end to our fascinating potential. And it looks to me as if our cleverness is hastening this finality at a disheartening rate.

    If there is a God (which I doubt) He undoubtedly has a very nasty sense of humor.

    DanielDe
    April 9, 2005 - 04:23 am
    I appreciate Robby’s link to the issue of infallibility. I looked into the Catholic Churche's intended proof of such infallibility. In extremely short form, they distinguish infallibility from inspiration (guidance) and revelation (spoken by God himself). Infallibility simply means that a papal decree is error free, nothing more. Their main argument for such a concept is that as Jesus sent his Apostles to teach, it was an implicit competence that they had received, otherwise their teachings could not effectively lead the flock. The claim remains at a human level.

    The effects of such a claim though are different. To the general people that must accept that principle, few are aware of the fine analysis that went into devising the principle. The first hand understanding of infallibility is that a papal decree is equivalent to Holy Writ. This is not what the definition says and in this case, to me, the Church is misleading the people.

    DanielDe
    April 9, 2005 - 04:39 am
    The need for such a claim at a human level is quite unnecessary. At a political level, the authority of a leader follows from his credibility in understanding problems and proposing solutions that work. Any human being will remain a fallible leader, even when he speaks authoritatively, and his solutions will work even if he is himself a fallible person. What makes a leader effective are twofold: the training of his mind and the characteristics of his personality. Those are a never finished work in progress. The teaching of the old saying is still sound: "the proof of the pudding is in the eating". Even if the Church claims its infallibility - given the precautions taken - the result of its guidance will determine whether or not it was rightly inspired.

    Paul was not aware that the letters he was writing - offering analysis of spiritual problems, giving guidance to the churches and proposing solutions to their problems - was to become part of the Holy Writ. He served with his whole heart, feeling totally inadequate for the task he was called for. I wonder how he would have reacted to a disciples' claim of infallibility.

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 9, 2005 - 04:50 am
    The Papal funeral ceremonies are over. There will be a long pause as the Cardinals retire in secret to choose the next Pope. Let us for just a brief moment examine FUNERALS in general.

    Then let us take advantage of this lull to get back to Durant and The Judaic Civilization.

    Robby

    tooki
    April 9, 2005 - 05:03 am
    Are apologies and amends concerning the Holocaust being expected only from the Catholic Church because the Pope died, and the group is discussing “Faith?” That’s just the beginning of guilt. Various countries, including the United States turned that blind eye to what was and continues happening. There is enough guilt to go around, and around, and around. A “Church” should not be singled out for blame; that’s passing the buck.

    I suppose each of us has our own special area where we blame someone, somebody, entity, or god for what we perceive as a grievous wrong. My own wrong, which has never been righted, is what the United States did to the American Indians. Sometimes I wallow in anger.

    Wallowing in anger and blame is part of the syndrome of amends and apologies. I wonder if it’s possible to just let it go. Probably not; these actions and reactions are likely in our genes.

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 9, 2005 - 05:07 am
    Durant continues.

    "Jewish communities developed in all the North African cities and in Sicily and Sardinia.

    "In Italy they were numerous. Although occasionally harassed by the Christian population, they were for the most part protected by pagan emperors, Christian emperors, Theodoric, and the Popes.

    "In Spain there had been Jewish settlements before Caesar and they had developed there without molestation under the pagan Empires. They prospered under the Arian Visigoths but suffered disheartening persecutions after King Recared (586-601) acopted the Nicene Creed.

    "We hear of no persecution of Jews in Gaul until the severe enactments of the third and fourth Councils of Orleans (538, 541) -- a generation after the conquest of Arian Visigothic Gaul by the orthodox Christian Clovis. About 560 the Christians of Orleans burned down a synagogue. The Jews petitioned Gunthram, King of the Franks, to rebuild it at public cost, as Theodoric in like case had done.

    "Gunthram refused. 'O King glorious for wonderful wisdom!' exclaimed Bishop Gregory of Tours.

    "From such tribulations the Jews of the Dispersion always recovered.

    "Patiently they rebuilt their synagogues and their lives -- toiled, traded, lent money, prayed and hoped, increased and multiplied.

    "Each settlement was required to maintain at communal expense at least one elementary and one secondary school, both of them usually in the synagogue. Scholars were advised not to live in any town that lacked such schools. The language of worship and instruction was Hebrew. The language of daily speech was Aramaic in the East, Greek in Egypt and Eastern Europe. Elsewhere the Jews adopted the language of the surrounding population.

    "The central theme of Jewish education was religion. Secular culture was now almost ignored. Dispersed Jewry could maintain itself, in body and soul, only through the Law. Religion was the study and observance of the Law.

    "The faith of their fathers became more precious to the Jews the more it was attacked. The Talmud and the synagogue were the indispensable support and refuge of an oppressed and bewildered people whose life rested on hope, and their hope on faith in their God."

    The more the faith was attacked, the more precious it became.

    Robby

    Bubble
    April 9, 2005 - 05:21 am
    A good reminder in this last URL. The week of mourning that we Jews observe, when all stops, no effort of any kind is required from the close family of the departed except be there for kins and visitors coming, this week seemed a bit too formal and imposed. That is until we reach the time for such an event.

    I did for both my father and my mother. I then realized that this time was necessary for better understanding the separation, for getting used to the permanance of such a separation. I am not religious, the prayers - required by the local tradition - meant nothing since I could not even understand the language properly. The warmth of those who came night after night, the relating of memories they had with one parent or the other, this was most precious to me because it added to what I knew or ignored of my dear ones.

    I wish I could have sat shiva (7 days) for every one of those I lost. It makes a difference.

    tooki
    April 9, 2005 - 06:23 am
    One infallible way to be Jewish is for your mother to be Jewish. Then there’s conversion. Or “passing.” I suppose one could, like many non-Indians (like Ward Churchill) do today simply pass yourself off as whatever you want to be. While the benefits of “passing” as multi-ethnic, American Indian, or Jewish are not apparent to me immediately, perhaps there are some.

    The next thing is observing "Hhalakhah,” or “The Law.” Durant says, “Dispersed Jewry could maintain itself, in body and soul, only through the Law; and religion was the study and observation of the Law.”

    I think this introduction to being Jewish by observing the Law is very useful.

    "Judaism is a comprehensive way of life."

    Joan Grimes
    April 9, 2005 - 08:13 am
    This discussion is now read only as it is over 1,000 posts. A new one has been opened for you to continue your discussion. Just click on "---Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant ~ Volume IV, Part 5 ~ Nonfiction ~ NEW" #1, to get to the new discussion.

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    Joan Grimes