Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant ~ Volume IV, Part 3 ~ Nonfiction
Marjorie
December 3, 2004 - 06:15 pm
  
"I want to know what were the steps by which man passed from barbarism to civilization." (Voltaire)

What are our origins? Where are we now? Where are we headed? Share your thoughts with us!

Volume Four (The Age of Faith)

"Four elements constitute Civilization -- economic provision, political organization, moral traditions, and the pursuit of knowledge and the arts. "

"I shall proceed as rapidly as time and circumstances will permit, hoping that a few of my contemporaries will care to grow old with me while learning. "

"These volumes may help some of our children to understand and enjoy the infinite riches of their inheritance."

"Civilization begins where chaos and insecurity ends."


THOUGHT AND ART IN EASTERN ISLAM

Scholarship and Science | Medicine and Philosophy | Mysticism and Heresy | Literature, Art and Music

In this Discussion Group we are not examining Durant. We are examining Civilization but in the process constantly referring to Durant's appraisals.

This volume surveys the medieval achievements and modern significance of Christian, Islamic, and Judaic life and culture. It includes the dramatic stories of St. Augustine, Hypatia, Justinian, Mohammed, Harun al-Rashid, Charlemagne, William the Conqueror, Eleanor of Aquitaine, Richard the Lion-Hearted, Saladin, Maimonides, St. Francis, St. Thomas Aquinas, Roger Bacon, and many others, all in the perspective of integrated history. The greatest love stories in literaure -- of Heloise and Abelard, of Dante and Beatrice -- are here retold with enthralling scholarship.

The Age of Faith covers the economy, politics, law, government, religion, morals, manners, education, literature, science, philosophy, and art of the Christians, Moslems, and Jews during an epoch that saw vital contests among the three great religions and between the religious and the secular view of human life. All the romance, poverty, splendor, piety and immorality, feudalism and monasticism, heresies and inquisitions, cathedrals and universities, troubadours and minnesingers of a picturesque millennium are gathered into one fascinating narrative.

This volume, and the series of which it is a part, has been compared with the great work of the French encyclopedists of the eighteenth century. The Story of Civilization represents the most comprehensive attempt in our times to embrace the vast panorama of man's history and culture.

This, then, is about YOU. Join our group daily and listen to what Durant and the rest of us are saying. Better yet, share with us your opinions.

Your Discussion Leader:Robby Iadeluca

Story of Civilization, Vol. IV, Part 1
Story of Civilization, Vol. IV, Part 2
Books main page | B&N Bookstore | Suggest a Book for Discussion
We sometimes excerpt quotes from discussions to display on pages on SeniorNet's site or in print documents.
If you do NOT wish your words quoted, please Contact Ginny
Internet Citation Procedure

Marjorie
December 3, 2004 - 06:19 pm
Welcome to your new home for Story of Civilization. If you use subscriptions, do not forget to subsribe.

Persian
December 3, 2004 - 06:32 pm
CLAIRE - I'm glad that the link I posted was interesting for you. Not to worry, the whole purpose of our being in this discussion is to learn more about historical Islam and the Prophet Muhammad by reading, sharing our thoughts and discussing various aspects of what we learn, NOT necessarily to accept for oneself the customs and culture of Islam.

JoanK
December 3, 2004 - 06:49 pm
Thearctcle on the Muslem history was very interesting, but clearly very biased against Muslems. I don't know enough to be able to evaluate his assertions (none of the advances of Muslem civilization were done by Muslems, Muslems are always war-like, etc.) I did recognize a standard trick of those arguing against something in this country. When he identified Muslem with Marxism, this is a standard way of getting those of us who lived through the cold war to stop thinking and start reacting negatively with our guts.

We badly need a well informed person to take his points one by one and discuss them.

Malryn (Mal)
December 3, 2004 - 10:12 pm
You might like to look through this Islamic site

Justin
December 3, 2004 - 10:20 pm
Robby's 1061 raises an issue that has been troubling me. Is traditional Islam the same as fundementalist Islam? The author of the article says," What we see today is not Islam being highjacked by extremists, but Islam maintaining its tradition." Further, Bernard Lewis says," If Islam were to join the modern world, it must cease to be Islamic." Then the article talks about two sheres of Islam-the peace sphere and the war sphere. The war sphere is the world of non-believers.

The American President talks about Islam as though it were just another harmless religious group in society albeit one that has been taken over by a radical segment. If the author of the article in 1061 is correct the President is making serious error in judgement.

Malryn (Mal)
December 3, 2004 - 10:25 pm
Medieval Islamic culture

Islam: Medieval Wars, warfare, weapons, etc.

Sunknow
December 3, 2004 - 10:45 pm
Joan - I suppose you saved me, by posting your remarks, doubting an article I was about to praise. Yes, I know it shows 'the other point of view', which, frankly, just restated some of my own opinions/doubts.

You ask for some "well informed person to take his (the author's) points one by one and discuss them". You know as well as I do, that Mahalia is the only person here considered "well informed" on the subject and since she is likely a very nice lady, always concerned enough to share her knowledge with us.........most of what she shares shows the kind and helpful sort of individual that is no different from the kind and helpful Christian/Non-Christian individuals I know and read about all the time. Good deeds do not a Muslim make.

What ABOUT the other side? I would hardly expect Mahalia to expound on some of the points made by the writer of the article.

I was about to make some remarks of my own on some of the points made in "Golden Age of Islamic Civilization" but think I'll pass. Some of us do start a march by leading with the wrong foot sometimes.

Sun

Justin
December 3, 2004 - 11:19 pm
Mahlia: I was reading a section of Two Corinthians and came across a reference to a "third heaven" to which Paul says he was transported in a vision. Do you suppose that is the source for the "seven heavens" of Islam?

Persian
December 3, 2004 - 11:57 pm
JOAN & SUN - although the author of the article has a backround in Eastern European issues and seems to have more recently delved into finance and consulting, he does make some very valid (and quite historically correct) points about who the non-Arab participants were in various levels of administration and why their skills and experiences were important. And by drawing on highly respected Islamic scholars like Lewis, he adds legitimacy to his comments, whether one agrees with them or not. That's the GREAT part of a discussion like ours - we can agree or not, while continuing to learn and move on to another interesting point.

Perhaps if there are specific concerns generated by the article which would be compatible with our discussion outline, we could respond to them.

JUSTIN - How do you connect Paul's experience in a "third heaven" with the seven heavens of the Qur'an?

Malryn (Mal)
December 4, 2004 - 01:07 am
Glen Chancy in his article says that the weakness of the west is its secularism and that we believe in nothing. I think the strength of the west is its secularism and its separation of church and state, and I insist that we do believe in something.

In this country we believe in freedom and democracy. That's not something? Our government's laws were not written first in a Holy Book; they are voted in by our representatives, the representatives of the people. If we do not like what those representatives do, or feel that they treat our mandates unfairly, we kick them out and elect legislators who make the kinds of laws the people think are important and right.

I don't like the fact that Islamic nations are run by what's written in the Koran, or the fact that any other theocratic nation is run by religous laws. I am disturbed because certain leaders of my country seem to want to put religion into our government.

I said twice earlier about the issue that arose in this discussion about possibly insulting peoples' faith by what we say here that it's all a matter of interpretation, interpretation of the words we post. I sincerely believe that all three of these major religions are all a matter of interpretation. None of them was written in stone. Jesus's words, which are said to come from God, were written down 70 years after he died by somebody else. The truth, so to speak, of all these religions was passed down orally. So, then, how do we know what is the truth?

I did some research yesterday about Oliver Cromwell. Cromwell was a fundamentalist Protestant, a Methodist and a Puritan. He cancelled Easter and Christmas. Ivy, mistletoe and holly were outlawed as "ungodly branches of superstition." He entered war against Charles II because he thought the king was a subversive "crypto-Catholic".

He slaughtered Catholics (non-believers in his Puritan religion) at Drogheda and Wexford in Ireland, calling them heathen savages. "As the Bible gave no specific sanction to the clebration of Christ's birthday, the Puritans argued that it was a sinful contrivance of the Roman Catholic Church, so the Feast of the Nativity of Christ and all other festival days commonly called Holy Days were banned. With them went maypoles, dancing and other lewd entertainments"

I said Cromwell reminded me a little of Mohammed. What Cromwell did was based on his Puritanical interpretation of the Christian Bible. That is to say, Christianity can be interpreted to be a kind and loving religion, or it can be interpreted as Cromwell interpreted it.

Islam can be interpreted to be the kind, generous, giving religion Mahlia speaks about. On the other hand, it can be interpreted as the religion that allowed Muslims to attack and hack to death 48 Christians in a church in Plateau state, Nigeria on February 26, 2004.

Mal

Bubble
December 4, 2004 - 03:30 am
Mal, then religion is a code of behavior shaped by one's own views and aspirations and not by divine decree.

Actually I don't think it matters much about the source of whichever religion as long as it would make us more human and kind or aspire to become better spiritually. My opinion would be anathema for many -locally anyway.

Shasta, about your post on feeling inadequate if you were to be transplanted to desert life suddenly. Think of the opposite: how people living in such primitive conditions would feel lost when brough to 21C civilization and ways of life. How they would wonder about running water, sitting on toilets, cooking inside a house away from the elements, tootbrushes, TV, phones etc. This is what faced many Ethiopians when they arrived in Israel. Even mending clothes was foreign to them, even though they knew how to embroider beautifully.

robert b. iadeluca
December 4, 2004 - 07:16 am
"Before Khalid could enjoy his victory at Hira, a message came to him from the Caliph, sending him to the rescue of an Arab force threatened by an overwhelmingly superior Greek army near Damascus. Between Hira and Damascus lay five days' march of waterless desert.

"Khalid gathered camels and made them drink plentifully. Enroute the soldiers drew water from slain camels' bellies and fed their horses on camels' milk. This commissary was exhausted when Khalid's troops reached the main Arab army on the Yarmuk River sixty miles southwest of Damascus. There, say the Moslem historians, 40,000 (25,000?) Arabs defeated 240,000 (50,000?) Greeks in one of the innumerable decisive battles of history (634).

"The Emperor Heraclius had risked all Syria on one engagement. Henceforth Syria was to be the base of a spreading Moslem empire."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 4, 2004 - 07:29 am
Here is one person's narration about DAMASCUS before and after the Moslem conquest. As usual, consider the source of the link.

Robby

Persian
December 4, 2004 - 08:36 am
BUBBLE - I remember Operation Moses, which brought the Beta Israel (Ethiopians) to Israel. I was enroute to China at the time, but talked at length with a close Ethiopian colleague in Washington DC about how our community could help the Israelis in settling the newcomwers. It was an exciting moment for those of us who were familiar with the history of the Beta Israel. Here's a link in case anyone else might be interested in this very moving event.

http://www.wzo.org.il/en/resources/view.asp?id=908

MAL - Certainly there is the fierce side of Islam (as there is in other major religions) and history offers numerous examples like the one you mentioned above. The other side of the picture, of course, are the continued threats against and murders of Muslims worldwide. And, yes, often those barbaric acts are committed by individuals or gangs claiming to be Muslims and acting in the name of God.

As individuals, we can make only small inroads. Yet I am heartened when I think of individuals (many of whom I have known personally)who, like myself, are from multicultural and multireligious family backgrounds. They work hard to bring about a better understanding (especially in the West) in order to hopefully reduce some of the carnage seen on the world stage.

The region in which Islam was born and which is often a central focus of our TV news today is a harsh land in which the cultural traditions of centuries are incorporated. Old slights among the tribes are rarely forgotten (and often never forgiven over long periods). As more immigrants from these (and other less developed world regions) arrive in the USA, our American culture is bound to change. Native born Americans (especially of European descent) will necessarily have to learn more about "foreign" people and their backgrounds. In this aspect, I think of a recent article about a Hmong immigrant who was arrested for killing several deer hunters when he was caught in one of their tree stands on private property. Among the Hmong, there is no clear understanding of "private property." And so it is among many of the customs of less well-educated Muslims from the poorer regions of the world.

What seems to get in the way of achieving more peace is the GREED of humans. We can see this clearly in the recent example of turmoil at the UN, where there has been a call for Secretary General Kofi Anan to resign in the face of his son, Kojo, continuing to receive funds after it was announced that he would no longer do so. The January 2005 national elections in Iraq are in jeopardy because not all of the tribal leaders and govt. officials adhere to Washington's admonition that the elections be held on schedule.

I often wonder how Washington (and subsequently Americans in general) woudl feel if well armed Muslim Arabs invaded the USA and attempted to replace our governing structure because THEY thought it was the best thing to do for the world!

Éloïse De Pelteau
December 4, 2004 - 09:11 am
Those who have the power and the armaments do not feel the need to put themselves into someone else's shoes. Communication in negotiations become one sided and truly think that 'might is right'.

Malryn (Mal)
December 4, 2004 - 09:30 am
Is that what Mohammed thought, ELOISE?

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
December 4, 2004 - 10:37 am
"Those who have the power and the armaments do not feel the need to put themselves into someone else's shoes. Communication in negotiations become one sided and truly think that 'might is right'."

I am trying to think of any example where those in power (nations, corporations, alliances, organizations -- non-profit as well as for profit, individuals, etc.) do not wield their power to their own advantage and I can't come up with any. What is the purpose of acquiring power in the first place? Why bother if it is not used?

Isn't self-preservation the first law of existence? Do we preserve our personal lives or the lives of our organizations -- including religious organizations -- by making ourselves weak and not using the strengths (tools) that we have? Does the strong ram offer the attractive ewe to a weaker ram? Does McDonald permit other fast-food places to use identical Golden Arches?

Did anyone here expect to see Mohammed and his successors sit down at a table with the Byzantines or the Greeks and say "let's talk this over?" Have you ever seen a lion lie down with a lamb?

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
December 4, 2004 - 10:50 am


Mahlia, yes it's always because of 'greed' that conflicts arise isn't it? If only more people could have multi-religious, multicultural and multilingual background, it would certainly help but we all realize that this is not likely to ever happen unless people from all over the world would mix on a large scale. Then what would happen to the traditions, which language would prevail, which religion, or lack thereof, would become the norm? Would it be desirable for the progress of civilization?

robert b. iadeluca
December 4, 2004 - 10:56 am
Constant mixes happen whether we plan it consciously or not. Species, races, languages, religions go out of existence and new ones take their place.

Robby

Bubble
December 4, 2004 - 11:33 am
I wonder if we really need to find so much pride in tradition, religion, state, culture, whatever we "are part of", instead of personal achievement and the way we personally are accepted by those around us. I find pride in feeling at ease in three languages, in knowing about other cultures than my own, in feeling at ease almost anywhere I am. I probably also sound very odd in that.

Scrawler
December 4, 2004 - 12:51 pm
"Power" has been dubbed the ultimate goal. But is it really? What does power give any of us? Power can be defined as having vigor, force, or strength or the control over others, but it is not the first definition. As stated in Websters: "Power is the ability to, act, or produce". But how we "act" is left up to the individual. One has within themselves the "power" to act for good or evil.

robert b. iadeluca
December 4, 2004 - 01:17 pm
Whether it be for good or evil, power still exerts its force over the weak. Air pours into a vacuum. Power does things. It accomplishes things. We may not like what the insurgents in Iraq are doing with their power but they are accomplishing things. Mohammed, according to Durant, was one of the greatest accomplishers in history.

We can sit here and bemoan the lack of goodness and beauty and kindness and wish it were otherwise, but if we don't gain power by some method or other, those more powerful than us (whether they are "good" or "bad" people) will win out.

Witness the power struggle in the Ukraine.

Robby

Persian
December 4, 2004 - 02:04 pm
I find pride in feeling at ease in three languages, in knowing about other cultures than my own, in feeling at ease almost anywhere I am. I probably also sound very odd in that.

BUBBLE - I don't find this odd at all, since it was the way I was raised. I've tried to raise my son, David, to be curious about different people, languages, religions, cultures, customs, economics, and politics on a global basis. He, in turn, has made some progress with his own children (ages 12 and in much the same way. I had an agreement with my son when he ws in middle and high school that for every semester of sports he wanted to play, he also would register for a semester of foreign language. He has used those language skills repeatedly as he became an adult and took on more professional responsibility. And with more international deployments in his future, I'm sure he will continue his language studies.

This morning I was reading an article about how the Hispanic immigrant population in the USA has increased enormously. The Southern Baptist Confederation (representing a large segment of the Protestants in the USA) recognized this demographic change and commissioned a full-scale study of how best to attract new immigrants to the denomination. Several of the other Protestant denominations have also reached out to the Hispanic sectors of the country. I've also noticed that among many educators and government officials, there has been an increase in Spanish language classes. Hopefully, this is a sign that our society will continue to recognize the need to better understand the immigrant population. While I firmly believe in encouraging newcomers to learn English to ease the confusion and apprehension of living in the USA and to support their edcuational and professional goals, it has been my personal experience that much is gained by also developing a healthy respect for and ability to speak and understand their native languages.

Years ago, I remember taking a refresher course in Spanish in Washington DC. I was surprised to see several Central Americans in my class. Although they were from a predominantly Spanish-speaking region, their first language was an indigenous dialect and they needed help in learning Spanish. We had a great time learning together!

I also recall that it was the same year I was teaching at the Jewish Community Center in Maryalnd. Two of my students were from Argentina and it was the first time I'd heard anyone speak Hebrew with a Spanish accent!

Yet I shouldn't have been surprised, since during my tour in China, I'd met several students who were from Chinese Jewish families. They were learning Hebrew and of course they had Chinese accents! I recall that when I studied Chinese in preparation for that visiting professorship, my students in the USA encouraged me. Yet when I tried to use my Chinese language skills in China, my students and colleagues there only wanted to practice their English with me. Life's full of interesting challenges, isn't it!

Malryn (Mal)
December 4, 2004 - 02:32 pm
We tend to forget that many, many nations and people with power do good as well as throw their weight araound. I couldn't even begin to list the number of countries my country has helped, or does help. At one time I saw a partial list of the charities and educational facilities to which rich-beyond-imagination Bill Gates contributes huge amounts of money. He is not alone in doing this.

If you think about it we are all multi-ethnic. ROBBY is not just American, he has a rich Italian and Swedish heritage. What I know of mine is French and English and a whole lot more, including Roman, if I went back that far.

My Florida son's wife is of Middle Eastern heritage. Their son is being raised Jewish. His great grandfather was a rabbi.

My other son is married to a woman of Italian heritage. Their two children are being raised Catholic. Other relatives of mine belong to many different Protestant churches.

We also are more multi-cultural than one might believe. I can read two other languages besides English quite well, and have enough acquaintance with two more to be able to understand what I find on web pages and books in those languages. My grandson here lives in the German house at the university he attends and speaks nothing but German while he is there.

I grew up and went to school with children of Italian, French, Armenian, Lebanese, African American, Russian, Polish, German, Canadian, French Canadian, Scottish, Irish, Welsh, Norwegian, Swedish heritage who were Jewish, Catholic, Muslim, Christian Scientist, Seventh Day Adventist, Mormon and every denomination of the Protestant religion you could name. I went into their homes, ate their food on occasion, heard from them about their traditions; we are all more multi-cultural than you might think.

In this small city, there are Mexican, Japanese, French, Middle Eastern, Italian and other restaurants. We are dipping into multi-culturalism when we go out to eat.

I learned in school about the cultures of other nations and kinds of people, just as my grandchildren are today. Every American in this discussion has families that came from somewhere else, and I suspect that we all know our history.

Mal

Fifi le Beau
December 4, 2004 - 02:36 pm
In Mal's link, I read the link to Mohammed prophecy.

Two of the prophecies are as follows:

The earth would not accept the apostate (unbelievers).

The worldly super powers would be conquered.


Notice that Mohammed did not say that God would not accept the unbelievers, he said the earth would not accept them.

Mohammed's second prophecy is world domination by Islam.

A careful reading of Mal's link where I found the prophecy quoted above, would give one a glimpse into a world dominated by Islam. It would be a world transported back to 632 AD, and would bring an end to the civilized world as we know it.

Every country the arabs invaded and occupied was eventually smothered by Islamic dogma, even with the best efforts of inhabitants of those countries to go forward in science and learning. Arabia of the 20th century was the same as it was in 632 AD. I learned all this as a history major so it was not news to me, but is has been over 40 years ago.

Fifi

robert b. iadeluca
December 4, 2004 - 03:43 pm
"While Khalid was leading his men to victory, a dispatch informed him that Abu Bekr had died (634), and that the new caliph, Omar, wished him to yield his command to Abu Obeida. Khalid concealed the message until the battle was won.

"Omar (Umar Abu Hafsa ibn al-Khattab) (581-644) had been the chief advisor and support of Abu Bekr and had earned such repute that no one protested when the dying Caliph named him as successor.

"Yet Omar was the very opposite of his friend:-tall, broad shouldered, and passionate -- agreeing with him only in frugal simplicity, bald head, and dyed beard. Time and responsibility had matured him into a rare mixture of hot temper and cool judgment.

"Having beaten a Bedouin unjustly, he begged the Bedouin -- in vain -- to inflict an equal number of strokes upon him. He was a severe puritan, demanding strict virtue of every Moslem. He carried about with him a whip wherewith he beat any Mohammedan whom he caught infringing the Koranic code.

"Tradition reports that he scourged his son to death for repeated drunkenness. Moslem historians tell us that he owned but one shirt and one mantle, patched and repatched -- that he lived on barley bread and dates, and drank nothing but water -- that he slept on a bed of palm leaves, hardly better than a hair shirt -- and that his sole concern was the propagation of the faith by letters and by arms.

"When a Persian satrap came to pay homage to Omar he found the conqueror of the East asleep among beggars on the steps of the Medina mosque.

"We cannot vouch for the truth of these tales."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 4, 2004 - 03:57 pm
Here is a VERY INTERESTING ADDRESS given by Umar after his tour of Syria.

Robby

Justin
December 4, 2004 - 05:24 pm
Fifi: Your concern about the prophecies of Mohammad brings us back to Robby's 1061 and my 5. There are threats in the world that we in the West choose to ignore. We assume they are latent threats and not likely to be implemented. Islam and Christianity can both be counted among these threats. For example, we choose to ignore the attack orders given by God in the Hebrew scriptures. We also seem to be ignoring the threats of traditional Islam.

In 1061 the authors, including the eminent Bernard Lewis, say,"What we see today is not Islam being highjacked by extremists, but Islam maintaining it's tradition."

Also in the 1061 article, " If Islam were to join the modern world, it must cease to be Islamic."

Now in your post Fifi, we find Mohammad's prophecies for world domination by Islam.

I don't know that these observations are valid but if what we see here is traditional Islam, then the unbelievers and the believers may not be able to live together in peace without a dominant figure at the helm to keep the parties apart.

Mahlia: I agree. We in the US would repell an Islamic invader who wished to force us to adopt their code of behavior. Those in Iraq whom we call insurgents may well call themselves patriots. It is one thing to go after those who attacked the World Trade Center, the Beirut garrison, the Navy ship off UAE, and the Teheran Embassy, and quite another thing to invade a country when it is not threatening. Terrorism is a world wide threat that should be quelled by the police forces of the world and by the UN.

3kings
December 4, 2004 - 06:18 pm
Quote from Robby :- "I am trying to think of any example where those in power (nations, corporations, alliances, organizations -- non-profit as well as for profit, individuals, etc.) do not wield their power to their own advantage and I can't come up with any. What is the purpose of acquiring power in the first place? Why bother if it is not used?

Isn't self-preservation the first law of existence? Do we preserve our personal lives or the lives of our organizations -- including religious organizations -- by making ourselves weak and not using the strengths (tools) that we have? Does the strong ram offer the attractive ewe to a weaker ram? Does McDonald permit other fast-food places to use identical Golden Arches?"

I'm sure you are speaking with your tongue in your cheek. (BG)

The unbridled use of power usually destroys, rather than builds. As in Vietnam, and now Iraq, it was often said, "We had to destroy the village, in order to save it." Well VNAM was not saved for democracy, it was nearly destroyed. Today it is still struggling to recover from the effects of it all, and will do so for years ahead.

On the other hand, in Eastern Europe, democracy is beginning to flourish, even in the Ukraine, as you remarked.

America had the power to eliminate the Soviets during 1945-1955. It chose not to destroy with its nuclear power, but to quietly and patiently demonstrate, day in and day out, to the people of Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union, that there was a better way to govern and to promote the peoples' welfare. The US, in that theatre,showed itself to be a truly admirable nation.

The advantage of not using overwhelming power, but to demonstrate by example, is surely clear for all to see.

I apologize. In my meanderings I have interupted our study. Back to Durant.....++ Trevor

Persian
December 4, 2004 - 06:54 pm
"Arabia of the 20th century was the same as it was in 632 AD.

FIFI - I wonder if you would clarify the above sentence from your earlier post. Did you mean to write 20th century? And do you refer to the country of Saudi Arabia or Arab nations?

JoanK
December 4, 2004 - 07:02 pm
JUSTIN: you say in post 5(?)"Robby's 1061 raises an issue that has been troubling me. Is traditional Islam the same as fundementalist Islam? The author of the article says," What we see today is not Islam being highjacked by extremists, but Islam maintaining its tradition."

This, indeed, is something to think about. But it occurred to me that if the nature of Islam is to conquer, they haven't really done it since the Middle Ages. If Muslams wanted to conquer the world, it must have been very frustrating for them to sit back all these centuries and see the peaceful Christians doing all the conquering (Napoleon, England, Hitler).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the places where Muslems have been fighting non-muslems are places where they feel they have been evicted and are trying to regain -- Israel Pakistan border. I deplore what the Palistinians are doing in Israel, but it is not in the nature of conquering "new territory". And in spite of Robby's arcticle saying that this kind of raiding can always conquer a more advanced country, the Palistinians have not been successful. It has caused much tragedy, but even if Israel gives back Gaza, Israel will still be bigger in 2005 than it was in 1948.

This is not to say that we shouldn't fear and combat terrorism. Of course we should. But I don't see any support for fears that Islam is going to take over the world.

Fifi le Beau
December 4, 2004 - 07:02 pm
Justin, I took the prophecy of Mohammed from Mal's link to an Islamic web site. I will make a link to the prophecy section so everyone can read for themselves. I thought the two that I cited were threats by Mohammed, which would mean nothing if there weren't people out there who believed it.

Notice in some of the other prophecy that he has advanced knowledge of events before they happen, at least that's what it says. We have read here Mohammed saying that no one could know the future but God (Allah) which was taken from Hebrew and Christian scripture. He claimed to have no special powers. Now we have Mohammed the fortune teller.

There are so many inconsistencies and contradictions that I sometimes feel as though I've fallen down the rabbit hole, and black is white, and up is down.

Prophecy of Mohammed

Fifi

Justin
December 4, 2004 - 07:04 pm
I think you are quite right, Trevor. Viet Namn was a misuse of power and so is Iraq. We seem to find it easy to repeat our mistakes. The Cold War was won by patience and economics.(your favorite culprit). We drove them to bankrupcy. However, because the power of the two contenders (nuclear) we may have been forced to adopt a patient strategy.

Malryn (Mal)
December 4, 2004 - 08:21 pm
Igra Islamic Publications. Scroll down to see Mohammed's Prophecies; then scroll further to access some interesting articles

Talk Islam Online Store for books, videos, etc.



Islamic Toys from the Islam Online Store, including a Trivial Pursuit style game teaching Quranic basics

Books for Women

Malryn (Mal)
December 4, 2004 - 08:59 pm
Honor Killings, Illicit Sex and Islamic Law

A list of Muslim websites

Nation of Islam home page

A Brief Illustrated Guide to Understanding Islam

Malryn (Mal)
December 4, 2004 - 09:31 pm
What is Sufism?

The Shia homepage

Shia: Pennsylvania



The Battle of Uhud

robert b. iadeluca
December 5, 2004 - 05:39 am
I invite everyone here to re-read my Post 17. Trevor, you used terms which I did not use or imply -- "unbridled" power and "overwhelming" power. Justin, you spoke of the "misuse" of power.

I was not speaking with tongue in cheek. In an earlier post, the term Power was allied with the concept of Evil and I was saying that Power, in itself, is not only a natural evolutionary concept built in for the preservation of the specie (and individual, etc.) but that it can, and often is, used for Good.

McDonalds has power but does not bomb Burger King. Studies have shown the stronger buck with the impressive antlers often just demonstrates his strength, the weaker buck retires, and the stronger buck does not try to kill him. I am saying that Power has its place and it would be folly for the stronger animal, person, religious organization, etc. to have Power (in its pure sense) without using it. A wealthy Christian church, as an example, is using its power by obtaining food and giving it away to thousands of poor people. Bill Gates is using his billions to aid people all around the world.

Whether Islam or Christianity or Judaism is using their power for good can be discussed but the fact is that they do have Power and should use it. Mohammed decided to use it as he saw fit. Whether it was unbridled or misused can be further discussed.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 5, 2004 - 06:01 am
"Omar had deposed Khalid because the 'Sword of God' had repeatedly tarnished his courage with cruelty. The invincible general took his demotion with something finer than bravery. He put himself unreservedly at the disposal of Abu Obeida, who had the wisdom to follow his advice in strategy and oppose his ferocity in victory.

"The Arabs, ever skillful horsemen, proved superior to the cavalry, as well as the infantry, of the Persians and the Greeks. Nothing in early medieval armament could withstand their weird battle cries, their bewildering maneuvers, their speed. They took care to choose level battle grounds favorable to the tactical movements of their mounts.

"In 635 Damascus was taken, in 636 Antioch, in 638 Jerusalem. By 640 all Syria was in Moslem hands. By 641 Persia and Egypt were conquered.

"The Patriarch Sophronius agreed to surrender Jerusalem if the Caliph would come in person to raitfy the terms of capitulation. Omar consented and traveled from Medina in stately simplicity, armed with a sack of corn, a bag of dates, a gourd of water, and a wooden dish.

"Khalid, Abu Obeida, and other leaders of the Arab army went out to welcome him. He was displeased by the finery of their raiment and the ornate trappings of their steeds. He flung a handful of gravel upon them, crying:-'Begone! Is it thus attired that ye come out to meet me?'

"He received Sophronius with kindness and courtesy, imposed an easy tribute on the vanquished, and confirmed the Christians in the peaceful possession of all their shrines.

"Christian historians relate that he accompanied the Patriarch in a tour of Jerusalem. During his ten days' stay he chose the site for the mosque that was to be known by his name.

"Then, learning that the people of Medina were fretting lest he make Jerusalem the citadel of Islam, he returned to his modest capital."

An interesting use of Power.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
December 5, 2004 - 07:47 am
I hope people will take the time to go to some of the Islamic web pages I linked last night. I am learning a lot from them.

There are what I'd call stringent rules of behavior in the Koran. Alcohol is not consumed by Muslims, for example. Modesty in women is stressed. Family is extremely important. Some of the articles written by Middle Eastern muslims about alcohol consumption and the immodest behavior of women in the West are very enlightening.

The Islam Online Store has a video for sale which is called "Don't Go Near Zina." Zina is adultery. It takes four witnesses to prove adultery on the part of a woman, but there are exceptions, I read. In one article I saw that one woman accused of Zina preferred stoning as punishment rather than face what would be her lot in the hereafter.

It appears to me that Islamic life revolves around the Koran, and Islamic living is staying on the straight and narrow. There's much more on these web pages, including talk about terrorism, the persecution of Yassir Arafat, Palestine, etc.. The Islamic Nation in this country scares me.

I had forgotten that Cat Stevens became a muslim some years ago. His CD's are available for purchase in the Online Store.

I'm tempted to get a muslim woman doll for my granddaughter, and think learning about Islam through the Trivial Pursuit type game would be a good idea. I'd also like to buy the PBS videos about Islam. Has anyone seen that series?

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
December 5, 2004 - 08:25 am
How about the power of books like the Bible, the Torah, the Talmud, the Koran?
"Think of the Bible not as a holy book, but as an artifact. That is the approach taken by Christopher de Hamel of Corpus Christi College, Cambridge, in The Book. A History of the Bible (New York: Phaidon, 2001; $39.95). More copies of the Bible have been sold than any other book; it has been translated into more languages than any other book; and it is a perennial bestseller, century after century. As such, the Bible reflects different times and different places, certainly no less than any other artifact and more so than most."

Source:
Archeology. The Bible as artifact
Why is the Bible such a consistent bestseller?

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
December 5, 2004 - 09:32 am
This is a link to a good NY Times article about Democracy in Islamic countries

Scrawler
December 5, 2004 - 01:11 pm
It is my feeling that unless "the powers that BE" make an effort to understand another's culture and custom it won't matter how much power they have over them - they can't possibly succeed.

Justin
December 5, 2004 - 02:27 pm
Rooby; I understand your thought. Power may be applied for good or ill. It is very often applied with good intention.

However, I thought Viet Namn was a misuse of power because our power brokers, Johnson and Rusk, saw a need to halt a projected territorial advance by two totalitarian dictatorships-China and The Soviet Union. Those two were really enemies, not colleagues, and Ho Chi Minn probably wanted to be free of all foreign domination-the French particularly.

We tried to help the South, which I would not call a democracy, by giving them advice and council and then realizing the South was not strong enough to withstand Ho's forces, we sent troops. The whole thing was called "preventing the spread of communism."

When we risk Marine lives for an abstraction like "preventing the spread of communism," we set ourselves up for other entangling alliances that cause more Marine loss of life. We did this in Korea, in Viet Namn, and now in Irag. We may be forced to do it again in Iran and North Korea and that's not the end of it.

Our current power brokers should read the Durants. They would learn that Rome played this game before we came along and Rome is gone from the current scene.

Justin
December 5, 2004 - 02:38 pm
Mahlia: One gets from Paul's third heaven to Mohammad's seventh heaven in an elevator. Seriously, however,I thought perhaps because M borrowed so much from the Testaments he also might have borrowed this piece from Corinthians and enlarged upon it.

Justin
December 5, 2004 - 02:58 pm
Robby: Your 38 describes an "interesting use of power." Notice that the operative word is "take". They "took" with the sword and horses Damascus, Antioch, Jerusalem, Syria, Persia, and Egypt.

Éloïse De Pelteau
December 5, 2004 - 03:54 pm
Mal, "Why is the Bible such a consistent bestseller?"

I guess because it leaves no one indifferent. I read it for the first time at the age of 58 and I havn't been the same since, but perhaps the reason why it is a consistent bestseller is that people find in it what they are looking for.

robert b. iadeluca
December 5, 2004 - 04:06 pm
"Once Syria and Persia were securely held, a wave of migration set in from Arabia to north and east, comparable to the migration of Germanic tribes into the conquered provinces of Rome.

"Women joined in the movement but not in numbers adequate to Arab zeal. The conquering males rounded out their harems with Christian and Jewish concubines, and reckoned the children of such unions legitimate.

"By such industry and reckoning the 'Arabs' in Syria and Persia were half a million by 644. Omar forbade the conquerors to buy or till land. He hoped that outside of Arabia they would remain a military caste, amply supported by the state, but vigorously preserving their martial qualities.

"His prohibitions were ignored after his death and almost nullified by his generosity in life. He divided the spoils of victory eighty per cent to the army, twenty per cent to the nation.

"The minority of men, having the majority of brains, soon gathered in the majority of goods in this rapidly growing Arab wealth. The Quraish nobles built rich palaces in Mecca and Medina. Zobeir had palaces in several cities, with 1000 horses and 10,000 slaves. Abd-er-Rahman had 1000 camels, 10,000 sheep, 400,000 dinars ($1,912,000).

Omar saw with sorrow the decline of his people into luxury."

Power, in the guise of wealth, continued to grow. Whatever happened to the nomads?

Robby

Justin
December 5, 2004 - 05:17 pm
The pattern is again repeating. A slave economy is once again developing. This time it is in Syria and Persia and it follows the conquering hordes of Islamic Arabs. Slave economies do not last much beyond the period of conquest. However, the religion that develops as a result of the conquest seems to last forever.

Justin
December 5, 2004 - 05:32 pm
There are Muslim communities in the US. How well have they integrated with the US population. Do they fare well only in ghettos? Do employers who hire them find that the constraints of the Koran limit their usefulness? Muslims seem to have problems integrating in France where the French thought it necessary to prohibit the burqua and head coverings in schools.

Fifi le Beau
December 5, 2004 - 06:51 pm
Here is another view of Islam from Ibn Warraq. He has written several books on Islam, some of which I have read. He must write under a psuedonym because to leave Islam is to have a death sentence upon your head.

He provides muslims space to write their own testimony about Islam on his Foundation web site.

A different view

Fifi

Traude S
December 5, 2004 - 08:05 pm
There are different kinds of power: economic, political and military power, and others- on a large scale. The primitive,instinctual drive by the strong to overcome the weak (or the presumed weak) is still ongoing - look at any classroom for the bullies. What kind of power motivated the Arabs?

ROBBY, since I don't have the book, I may have missed some of the quotations. I do remember a reference to Mohammed's creating his own "Salic law", but I wonder whether Durant explained the reason : Mohammed had no male heirs.

It is a privilege to participate in the free exchange that takes place in this folder - absent the pressure of consensus-building and fear of uttering a word that might appear unpatriotic. That said, allow me to add that I am in consonance with Justin and Trevor but fully aware that specific words of theirs were not yours.

Eventually I hope to catch up with the links, too.

It would be nice if we could take at least a brief glimpse at how the Islamic conquests proceeded in the centuries after M. and realize that the invasions of Spain and Sicily, for example, were NOT lasting and that these countries were NOT converted to Islam wholesale.

Incidentally, Mohammed is known in Italian historically as "Maometto" and Muslims as "musulmani". In English, there is no definitive spelling of names, including that of the Koran.

MAHLIA, belatedly Happy Birthday!

Fifi le Beau
December 5, 2004 - 08:26 pm
I read an article recently that said the fastest growing group when asked about religion was marked 'non religion'. I went to the CIA factbook and found the following religious percentage for the world.

Christianity 32.71% Muslim 19.67% Hindu 13.28% Buddist 5.84% Sikhs .38% Jews .23% Other rel. 13.05% Non religion 12.43% Atheist 2.41%

Adding the non religion with atheist would equal 14.84% which would put 'no religion' in third place.

Religion and the world

Fifi

Justin
December 5, 2004 - 09:31 pm
Fifi: Your link to "a different view" offers some hope for all- Muslim and non-Muslim.The respondents seem to be reading the same Qu'ran that I am reading. I wondered how a Muslim could live in the west, be friendly and befriended, and yet follow a code that commits one to hatred of non believers.

Justin
December 5, 2004 - 09:37 pm
Mal: The Nation of Islam is a little scarey. The prophet Elijah coupled with Malcolm X were useful in the early days of the Civil rights struggle. They were aggressive as I recall. The opposite of Martin Luther King. I don't know what they represent today.

The Civil Rights movement has shifted into a lower gear since Johnson and King brought about some measure of equality. The battle is by no means over but women and blacks have the confidence today to resist discrimination. I heard Congressman John Lewis the other day speaking about the fortieth aniversary of the Civil Rights Law. He recognized that things had changed for the better in the South.

Persian
December 5, 2004 - 09:37 pm
Here is a link to some additional statistics about Muslims in the USA: http://www.soundvision.com/info/yearinreview/2001/profile.asp

JUSTIN: May I respond to your question about how well Muslims have integrated into American society? I've worekd with and interacted professionally with Muslims in the USA since the 1960's. Many of them were immigrants and others second or third generation Americans. Quite a few were university students who upon graduation were offered employment in the USA.

I've run across a few lady folks; some downright nasty; others confused by American customs; and a few who disliked the USA so much that they returned to their home countries. However, on the whole, the people whom I've met have been hard-working, serious about their facmily and community responsibilities, eager to learn (or perfect) their English language skills, happy to be in the USA and looking forwrd to more education, progress in their professions, and establishing families here.

Many of the Muslims - women and men - whom I've known through the years have worked very hard to improve themselves professionally, especially in the medical, educational and scientific fields. They have been committed to further education for themselves and family members. They respect our freedom of speech and the protection they know our laws provide. They applaude the community activities which encourage their kids to participate in sports; they encourage their female relations to become as educated as possible, while adhering to the family responsibilities of women. Most of the people whom I've known take their duty as Muslims VERY seriously, encouraging the regular prayers throughout the day and the assembled prayers on Friday. Chidlren are taught at a very early age to respecet and participate in their religion. Zakat is paid annually during Ramadan and Muslims look for opportunities to help in their communities - which are usually not "ghettos" - in whatever way they can.

I've known Muslim medical doctors who take their annual vacation, gather colleagues together, solicit donations of medicine and equipment and make humanitarian trips back to their home countries to attend to the health needs of those who cannot afford regular care. These same individuals also encourage other medical colleagues to do the same, whether they are from immigrant families or not.

There are Muslim attorneys whom I've met and thanked for their work with indigent youth in the USA - not all Muslims, by any means, but just young folks who need legal counsel, but cannot afford the cost.

Numerous Muslim eduators strive to bring to their classrooms and labs as much opportunity for learning as possible, not only because it is their job to do so, but also to "give back" to others what they have been given from an educational standpoint.

I know Muslim policemen (many African American who have converted to Islam, but also Muslims from other ethnic backgrounds), who work hard on some pretty mean streets to uphold American laws. And in their off-time, they continue to work hard with youth in their neighborhoods by either teaching, coaching, tutoring, or just being a Big Brother to kids who need them.

Mosques in the USA draw congregants from many walks of life, some professional and others not. The political tone of the adherents is different from one mosque to another. Some who have predominantly East Asian congregants do not "feel" the same as those mosques which attract predominantly Persians or Arabs or African Americans. There are many issues of contention in the Christian Black community vs the Muslim African American community and sometimes those differences cause significant community problems.

In some cases, the more extreme members of a Muslim community turn on others outside their faith, like the Hanafi Muslims who attacked and held hostage employees and visitors in B'Nai Brith HQ in Washington DC many years ago. Several Muslim diplomats (I remember the Iranian and Egyptian Ambassadors in particular) rushed to the building and offered themselves if the B'Nai Brith hostages could be freed.

Certainly there are Muslims in the USA who should not be here, or are trouble makers, or just plain nasty folks. But then there are people like that all over the world. Many years ago, two Muslim students were in one of my seminars. They talked incessantly during one class about "what would happen if . . . " and spoke about several scenarios resulting in death and destruction. At the break, I returned to my office, called the campus police and the FBI. Officers met me at the door of my classroom and escorted the two students out. They were subsequently arrested.

I've also experienced having two heads of Muslim families arrested for spousal abuse, removed their wives and children to my own home, and provided financial assistance to help relocate them to a safe environment away from their husbands. I've worked with Muslims who were members of diplomatic delegations and took advantage of being in the USA to behave in unacceptable ways. They were subsequently relieved of their status and depoted.

I certainly cannot speak for all Muslims in the USA, nor how they behave in their families or communities. The above comments are from my own personal experiences. And just like dealing with any other group of folks, there are lots of good people whom I've enjoyed knowing and some real SOB's whom I've taken great pleasure in knowing they are no longer in the USA.

Sunknow
December 5, 2004 - 10:48 pm
Fifi - Thanks for posting the link "a different view". It questions some of the many things that I question.

Justin - Yes, I agree. It does offer hope for, as you say, both Muslim and non-Muslim.

The statements by Ali Sina echo my own thoughts pretty much. Also I couldn't help but smile when the second writer, Ali Z, made reference to the story of the Noah's Ark and said he thought it was "one of the most bizarre stories" recorded in the Quran. He was so filled with disbelief that the account of events (and many others) caused him to doubt the Quran.

I can only confess that once I was past childhood, I doubted the same story myself, on the same grounds, and along with many others we were taught from the Bible. I was scolded for my trouble. I long ago stopped arguing with people about the Bible....convinced that it is a book by many writers, written over many centuries, I treasure it, and let it go at that. Enough of what I think.....but I was surprised and amused to find here in our discussion, that Noah and his Arc was in the Quran.

Mahalia - you slipped in just before I posted. I also knew a Muslin Doctor out in Amarillo, TX. that collected a massive amount of medical equipment to send or take back home because the equipment was so badly needed. To the other extreme: There was a Muslim family that moved to a small East Texas town I lived in back in the early 80's. They bought the local Hotel. He ran the hotel, and she and the children were never seen except occasionally going in and out through the lobby, or in the restaurant. They suddenly were not seen for a good period of time and he explained they had gone for a visit. After a couple of weeks, he suddenly left town, and his wife and two children were found dead upstairs. He was later tracked down and returned for trial. I never heard any account of what she and/or the children had done.

Sun

robert b. iadeluca
December 6, 2004 - 04:43 am
Mahlia:-Thank you for that detailed description of Muslims in the USA. As time goes along, more of us will undoubtedly be seeing Muslims in our own communities and even meeting some of them.

Traude:-We will, indeed, be reading in detail "how the Islamic conquests proceeded in the centuries after Mohammed." Durant covers that in detail.

I appreciate the tremendous interchange of conversation here on the part of everybody. It would be dull if the only remarks were the Durant texts I printed. And of course the many links give us information we would have never received if all we were doing was reading the book. The GREEN quotes in the Heading indicate our current sub-topic and the direction in which we are going. Thank you all so much!

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 6, 2004 - 04:59 am
"A Persian slave struck him down while Omar led the prayers in the mosque (644). Unable to persuade Abd-er-Rahman to succeed him, the dying Caliph appointed six men to choose his successor. They named the weakest of their number, perhaps in the hope that they would rule him.

"Othman ibn Affan was an old man of kindly intent. He rebuilt and beautified the Medina mosque and supported the generals who now sprad Moslem arms to Herat and Kabul, Balkh and Tiflis, and through Asia Minor to the Black Sea. But it was his misfortune to be a loyal member of the aristocratic Umayyad clan which in the early days had been among Mohammed's proudest foes.

"The Umayyads flocked to Medina to enjoy the fruits of their relationship to the old Caliph. He could not refuse their importunity. Soon a dozen lucrative offices warmed the hands of men who scorned the puritanism and simplicity of pious Moslems.

"Islam, relaxing in victory, divided into ferocious factions:-'Refugees' from Mecca vs 'Helpers' from Medina -- the ruling cities of Mecca and Medina vs the fast-growing Moslem cities of Damascus, Kufa, and Basra -- the Quraish aristocracy vs the Bedouin democracy -- the Prophet's Hashimite clan led by Ali vs the Umayyad clan led by Mnawiya, son of Mohammed's chief enemy Abu Sufyan, but now governor of Syria.

"In 654 a converted Jew began to preach a revolutionary doctrine at Basra that Mohammed would return to life, that Ali was his only legitimate successor, that Othman was a usurper and his appointees a set of godless tyrants. Driven from Basra, the rebel went to Karfa. Driven from Karfa, he fled to Egypt, where his preaching found passionate audience. Five hundred Egyptian Moslems made their way to Medina as pilgrims and demanded Othman's resignation. Refused, they blockaded him in his palace.

"Finally they stormed into his room and killed him as he sat reading the Koran (656)."

There seems always to be that conflict (in all religions) among fundamentalists, moderates, and those who are not that puritanical.

Note the cities of Kabul and Basra, names which are familiar to all of us these days.

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
December 6, 2004 - 10:43 am
Fifi, after you posted about the percentage of religions throughout the world I wondered what religion this huge segment of the world's population in China (Demography: Population (1998): 1,242,980,000) were practicing and here it is:

PERCENTAGE OF RELIGIONS IN CHINA

China's Religions: Percentages of religious affiliations as of 1980 were:

Nonreligious 51.9
Chinese folk-religion 20.1
atheist 12.0
Buddhist 8.5
Christian 6.0
Muslim 1.4
other 0.1

Fifi le Beau
December 6, 2004 - 11:24 am
Mahlia, I just found your post that addressed me! I had gone back to read some more on Mal's great links when I saw your post. Here is what you wrote:

"Arabia of the 20th century was the same as it was in 632 AD.

FIFI - I wonder if you would clarify the above sentence from your earlier post. Did you mean to write 20th century? And do you refer to the country of Saudi Arabia or Arab nations?


Yes I did mean the 20th century. Durant's description of Arabia at the time of Mohammed and the history of the rise of Abdul Aziz and the founding of the modern country of Saudi Arabia as described by Abdul Aziz himself were so similar that I commented on the amazing similarities.

Beginning in 1901 and until the announcement in Sept. 1932 by Abdul Aziz the unification of the dual kingdoms (he had been named King) of Nejd and Hijaz into a single sovereign state that would be known as the Kingdom of Sa'udi Arabia. The al Saud felt entitled to call Arabia their own so they added their name to the country. He still had tribal uprisings, but has held it together since the mid 1930's.

The 1901 to 1930's description of Arabia by Aziz was of mud buildings, conical thatched reed structures, camels, slaves, tribal warfare, caravan raiding, and the income produced by the hajj was the main source of income to a few families who Durant describes so well in Mohammeds time. These same families are mentioned 1400 years later by Abdul Aziz.

When Aziz finally got control of Mecca and deposed Shareef Husain ibn Ali who had declared himself King of the Hijaz, the ex-King Husain left Arabia for exile in Cyprus. His slaves staggered under the weight of tightly sealed kerosene cans that contained gold, 800,000 British pounds in gold sovereigns, profits from the pilgrimage over the years.

I refer to the country as Arabia from Mohammed's time up until the mid 1930's. It did not become Saudi Arabia until 1932. It does not include other Arab nations.

I hope this answers your question. Trying to be brief can sometimes be subject to misinterpetation.

One last story about the early twentieth century in Arabia. Abdul Aziz had brought a Model T car, the first in Arabia shortly before he became King. One day the ruler of Mecca and Medina ex-king Husain (Sharref Husain Ali) found a motor car in Mecca. He took an iron bar and demolished it. He said that there were no such contraptions during Mohammed's time, and that Arabia was to remain the same as it had during Mohammeds life.

Until 1932 Arabia had remained close to the life and times of Mohammed. The discovery of oil and its exploration and production by the Americans would change life, at least for the rulers and their companions.

Fifi

Fifi le Beau
December 6, 2004 - 12:23 pm
Eloise, thank you for the China link. The breakdown of religion in China was a good example of how the CIA factbook and their statistics played out.

The world population continues to grow. My own family has five generations living today. My mother is in her mid nineties and this week we had a portrait of the five generations together, my mother, myself, my daughter, grandaughter, great grandaughter. All girls and what fun we have together with mother leading the party.

Here is the world population as of today.

World population clock

Fifi

JoanK
December 6, 2004 - 01:03 pm
The breakdown of religeon in China is interesting, and answers one of my questions. I was surprised to see that there are many more Hindus than Buddists, as I think of China as a Buddist country. Apparently not: there are very few Buddists there.

Malryn (Mal)
December 6, 2004 - 01:06 pm
An interesting Newsweek article about religion in the U.S.

Persian
December 6, 2004 - 01:37 pm
Splendid response, FIFI. Many thanks.

ELOISE - here's a link about Muslims in China, which may interest you and other posters. I had an opportunity to travel in the Norhwestern border areas during my own tour in China. It is amazing how very different the region and its people - Kazakhs, Uigers, Turkoman - are from the Central and Eastern areas, inhabited by a majority of Han.

http://chinese-school.netfirms.com/Muslims.html

Persian
December 6, 2004 - 02:02 pm
While we have been reading and learning about slaves in the time of the Prophet, I wonder how many of us are aware of the statistics regarding the importation of slaves TODAY in the USA? The CIA (which has provided stats for recent posts, including mine), estimates that 50,000 women and children are brought into the USA as slaves each year. Here's a link to a book reviw which serves to remind us that our freedom and democracy is NOT without its warts.

http://www.charlotte.com/mld/observer/news/opinion/10348926.htm

Justin
December 6, 2004 - 05:37 pm
I wonder if those of you with CIA stats would mind posting a religious affiliation breakdown for the US so we can compare with China and the world.

Persian
December 6, 2004 - 05:59 pm
FROM THE CIA FACTBOOK:

Religions in the United States: Definition Field Listing

Protestant 52%, Roman Catholic 24%, Mormon 2%, Jewish 1%, Muslim 1%, other 10%, none 10% (2002 est.)

Religions in China:

Daoist (Taoist), Buddhist, Muslim 1%-2%, Christian 3%-4% note: officially atheist (2002 est.)

For indepth information on world religions, check World Religions, CIA Fact Book. The information is extensive and for some reason I could not copy/paste the link. (Spooks? Or perhaps just because my Clearances have expired.)

Justin
December 6, 2004 - 05:59 pm
If there is any validity in the Newsweek poll, the results are scarey. Can it be possible that two-thirds of Americans believe the Christmas story to be true in all it's elements? That is shocking. Ofcourse, we dumb down education in this country and play up religion. That accounts for some of the two-thirds. Then we know nothing about the Newsweek survey. It's non-response rate could be so high that the results are a distortion. The way the questions were asked could make the results invalid. The three percent error rate would be meaningless if non response were significant. Small percentages fall into the tail of the distribution and may be very questionable for that reason. These are things we don't know. But is the results are ok then they are scarey.

The US is in trouble on the science front. We have been relying upon a cadre for some years supported by Indians and Asians to round out our scientific research teams. Indians, Asians and other foreign math and science people are no longer coming to the US for training. 9/11 made the problem more pronounced. And now I see that the current budget provides for a reduction in funds for the National Science Foundation. We should be doubling or tripling that budget instead of spending money for bullets.

Justin
December 6, 2004 - 06:13 pm
If the Cia is right, there are just as many Muslims as Jews in the this country. That does not seem possible. Moreover, 80% of us identify with one religion or another. I must live in an enclave. Well, California is different.

Persian
December 6, 2004 - 06:13 pm
I remember that before I left the Univ. of Maryland in 1991, there were several years when there were NO American students in the graduate programs in the College of Engineering. It became a HUGE issue for the Administration within the College and the Central Admin. I also recall that many of the Asian Teaching Assistants were not prepared for the more casual classroom manner of their American undergraduate students who, in turn, did not respond well to the foreign TA's more rigid communication/teaching skills. These differences posed significant problems - students complained and so did the TA's. Yet I also recall numerous TA's who graduated, received their Ph.D. in various science fields and have become very successful in their professions in the USA.

robert b. iadeluca
December 6, 2004 - 06:14 pm
I find most interesting the links you folks find about events in our 21st century world and the comparison with the life of the Caliphs during Medieval times. Let us continue with Durant:-

"The Umayyad leaders fled from Medina and the Hashimite faction at last raised Ali to the caliphate. He had been in his youth a model of modest piety and energetic loyalty. He was now fifty-five, bald and stout, genial and charitable, meditative and reserved. He shrank from a drama in which religion had been displaced by politics and devotion by intrigue.

"He was asked to punish Othman's assassins but delayed until they escaped. He called for the resignation of Othman's appointees. Most of them refused. Instead of resigning, Muawiya exhibited in Damascus the bloody garments of Othman and the fingers that Othman's wife has lost in trying to shield him.

"The Quraish clan, dominated by Umayyads, rallied to Muawiya. Zobeir and Talha, 'Companions' of the Prophet, revolted against Ali and laid rival claims to the caliphate. Aisha, proud widow of Mohammed, left Medina for Mecca, and joined in the revolt.

"When the Moslems of Basra declared for the rebels, Ali appealed to the veterans at Kufa, and promised to make Kufa his capital if they would come to his aid. They came. The two armies met at Khoraiba in southern Iraq in the Battle of the Camel -- called so because Aisha commanded her troops from her camel seat.

"Zobeir and Talha were defeated and killed. Aisha was escorted with all courtesy to her home in Medina. Ali transferred his government to Kura, near the ancient Babylon.'

More names that are familiar to us -- Southern Iraq, Basra, Mecca. I wonder how many U.S. soldiers who are fighting there ever received any education about Islam similar to what we are receiving here.

I notice also Durant's constant reference to clans and their importance -- again a reference made from time to time in our news.

Robby

Persian
December 6, 2004 - 06:23 pm
Switching from the CIA to the Battle of Jamal (Camel) - one of the most studied events in Islamic history - the link below offers an intereting look at how one highly respected Muslima - Aisha, widow of the Prophet Muhammad - conducted herself in warfare and then peacefully returned to her home and resumed her teaching of Islam. Aisha displayed the balance of which numerous Muslimas are capable - calmness and integrity within the family and strength and assertiveness when necessary.

http://www.themodernreligion.com/women/aishah-shafaath.html

Justin
December 6, 2004 - 08:29 pm
Wonderful story, Mahlia, of a Muslima, who achieved some stature in the world through her own devices and her role as the Mother of Islam. There must be many muslimas who with calm and intelligence manage their families in the face of uncertainty. Unsung heroines are they who courageously face all the dangers of being a woman in an Islamic world.

robert b. iadeluca
December 7, 2004 - 04:36 am
"In Damascus Muawiya raised another rebel force. He was a man of the world, who privately put little stock in Mohammed's revelation. Religion seemed to him an economical substitute for policemen but no aristocrat would let it interfere with his enjoyment of the world.

"In effect his war against Ali sought to restore the Quraish oligarchy to the power and leadership that had been taken from them by Mohammed.

"Ali's reorganized forces met Muawiya's army at Siffin on the Euphrates (657). Ali was prevailing when Muawiya's general Amr ibn al-As raised copies of the Koran on the points of his soldiers' lances and demanded arbitration 'according to the word of Allah'-- presumably by rules laid down in the sacred book.

"Yielding to the insistence of his troops, Ali agreed. Arbitrators were chosen and were allowed six months to decide the issue while the armies returned to their homes.

"Part of Ali's men now turned against him and formed a separate army and sect as Khariiji or Seceders. They argued that the caliph should be elected and removable by the people.

"Some of them were religious anarchists who rejected all government except that of God. All of them denounced the worldliness and luxury of the new ruling classes in Islam.

"Ali tried to win them back by suasion but failed. Their piety became fanaticism and issued in acts of disorder and violence. Finally Ali declared war upon them and suppressed them.

"In due time the arbitrators agreed that both Ali and Muawiya should withdraw their claims to the caliphate. Ali's representative announced the deposition of Ali. Amr, however, instead of making a similar withdrawal for Muawiya, proclaimed him Caliph. Amid this chaos a Kharijite came upon Ali near Kufa and pierced his brain with a poisoned sword (661).

"The spot where Ali died became a holy place to the Shia sect which worshiped him as the Wali or vicar of Allah and made his grave a goal of pilgrimage as sacred as Mecca itself."

A truce based on mutual belief in Allah? Makes me think of the Christmas truce in World War I when the Allied and German soldiers, presumably most of them Christians, came together to sing Christmas carols and together played ball on the battle field. Is religion a uniter or a divider?

As Muawita says, is "religion an economical substitute for policemen?"

And again, class war seems predominant. How many times have we seen class against class in this forum from Durant's very first volume?

Please note the reference to the Shia sect which is mentioned so often in today's news.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 7, 2004 - 04:57 am
Here are some definitions of CALIPH. Do I understand this correctly as being the equivalent of the Christian Pope?

Robby

Persian
December 7, 2004 - 05:29 am
Here's a link to another interesting article about the history of Muslims in America and the estimated Muslim population.

http://www.colostate.edu/Orgs/MSA/find_more/iia.html

Persian
December 7, 2004 - 05:36 am
ROBBY - here's a link to all you'll ever want to know about the responsibilities of the designated Khalifs throughout Islamic history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliph

Shasta Sills
December 7, 2004 - 02:36 pm
So apparently the first caliph was either Mohammed's father-in-law or his son-in-law (Fatima's husband.) Does that mean Mohammed had no sons? And was Fatima his only daughter? Did Aisha have no children? How strange that he had all those wives and produced so few offspring. Or maybe history just doesn't record the others.

Justin
December 7, 2004 - 04:26 pm
We have known since the dawn of civilization at Sumeria that religion is an economical policeman. Muawiya was a smart cookie to recognize that advantage to a ruler. He also asked for arbitration according the Qu'ran, when he appeared to be losing in his battle for the Khalif. That guy knew that warfare was all about winning.

Traude S
December 7, 2004 - 04:45 pm
Regarding the Battle of the Camel, we read the quote from Durant in ROBBY's # 71 that afterwards
"Aisha was escorted with all courtesy to her home in Medina."


However, in a link subsequently provided, Dr. Ahmad Shafaat says (at the closing of the paragraph "Battle of the Camel" that

Traude S
December 7, 2004 - 04:48 pm
sorry, message was sent prematurely,


... that "Ayesha returned to Makkah".


This is diametrically different information. Would someone please solve this distressing disparity ?

Justin
December 7, 2004 - 04:51 pm
Islam has been growing in the US while I have been focused on other things. The practice came in with African slaves. It took root in the prisons of the US and played a militant role in the civil rights struggle advocating racism for racism. Today, there are as many Muslims in the country as there are Jews and possibly as many as Methodists.

I for one would like to welcome them to our shores. Should I be concerned that their Holy Book places demands upon them that oppose our laws? The way of Sharia is not the way of the US constitution. Am I just promoting conflict by welcoming Muslims or can I expect them to ignore the anti social admonitions of the Qu'ran just as Christians and Jews ignore the anti social admonitions of Christ and his Father? One of the duties of a US citizen is to protect the rights of others ie; all others- men, women, black, white, Christian, Jew, etc.

robert b. iadeluca
December 7, 2004 - 05:38 pm
"The Moslems of Iraq chose Ali's son, Hasan, to succeed him. Muawiya marched upon Kufa. Hasan submitted, received a pension from Muawiya, retired to Mecca, married a hundred times, and died at forty-five (669), poisoned by the Caliph or a jealous wife.

"Muawiya received the reluctant allegiance of all Islam. But for his own security, and because Medina was now too far from the center of Moslem population and power, he made Damascus his capital.

"The Quraish aristocracy, through Abu Sufyan's son, had won their war against Mohammed. The theocratic 'republic' of the Successors became a secular hereditary monarchy.

"Semitic rule replaced the dominance of Persians and Greeks in western Asia, expelled from Asia a European control that had lasted a thousand years, and gave to the Near East, Egypt, and North Africa the form that in essence they would keep for thirteen centuries."

Am I understanding this correctly? Mohammed, his successors, and "religion" lost out and secularism under Muawiya moved in?

Robby

Justin
December 7, 2004 - 06:26 pm
That's what it looks like to me too, Robby, but because of the unfamiliarity of the names the issue is a little clouded. I will reread Durant.

Fifi le Beau
December 7, 2004 - 07:47 pm
It was not secularism that Muawiya followed. He was the leader of Islam and governed as such. Mohammed himself picked his friend Abu Bekr as his successor, not his son-in-law. This became the split in Islam.

The 'Successors' came from his son-in-law who was married to Mohammed's only child Fatima. From them came the split in Islam. They eventually took power and were always having to fight the other sect to hold the office of Caliph. When Ali was killed near Kufa, his son Husan was appointed. He submitted to Muawiya and retired.

The Quraish plutocracy won out by naming the 'successors' of Mohammed's son-in-law as an hereditary monarchy. They were still muslim, but they ruled through inheritance by their title of king, not through Islam.

In the history of making Saudi Arabia into a country in the twentieth century there are pictures of these 'successors'. Shareef Husain ibn Ali was mad as a hatter and claimed he was king of all Arabia. He was only king of the Hijaz where the Quarish still controlled things.

His 'successor' and son Feisal was named King of Iraq with help from the British. His other 'successor' named Abdullah became ruler of Jordan. The current King Hussein of Jordan is the hereditary descendant of this same Abdullah. These rulers were ruling the Hijaz in Arabia where the Quarish held power when Abdul Aziz took over. The British were the ones who established the Hussein monarchy in both Iraq and Jordan after the 'successors' were defeated by Abdul Aziz.

The use of the word 'secular' by Durant seems confusing, but I hope the above explanation as concerns hereditary monarchy is useful and correct since it has more to do with who your father is that what your religion is. Others may have a different explanation that I did not see.

Fifi

moxiect
December 7, 2004 - 08:24 pm


And I am totally confused about who is who and why!

Help someone explain more fully, please.

Persian
December 7, 2004 - 09:00 pm
The current King Hussein of Jordan is the hereditary descendant of this same Abdullah.

FIFI - Two corrections, if I may.

1. The current King of Jordan is Abdullah, eldest son of the late King Hussein (who died on February 7, 1999, after losing his long bout with cancer and returning to Jordan from the Mayo Clinic) and his former wife, British-born Princess Muna.

When Abdullah assumed the throne, he fulfilled his promise to his father that his half-brother, Prince Hamza (the eldest son of King Hussein and his American-born wife, Queen Noor (formerly known as Lisa Hallaby) would be appointed as Crown Prince. However, Crown Prince Hamza has recently been "released" from the Royal duty by King Abdullah, so that he "may undertake any and all tasks" which Abdullah may entrust to him. Politics in the Palace!

2. Although the Prophet Muhammad and his wife, Khadija, had two boys, Qasim and 'Abdullah, neither survived infancy. They also had four daughters, Zainab, Ruqaiyyah, Umm Kulthum, and Fatimah. Fatimah is the only one who survived to adulthood.

other children, Fatima was the only one who survived to adulthood.

Persian
December 7, 2004 - 09:24 pm
MARIE - I'm sorry for your confusion. Here is a link to some information about Aisha, one of the most respected and knowledgeable women in Islam (although she was not "formally" educated), along with Prophet Muhammad's first wife, Khadija.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/history/biographies/sahaabah/bio.AISHAH_BINT_ABI_BAKR.html

Perhaps if you pose your specific questions, we can respond and help to make this discussion more enjoyable for you.

Fifi le Beau
December 7, 2004 - 09:40 pm
From Mahlis's link in #76.

I do not know who wrote this article because there was no name on it, but the MSA (Muslim Student Association) logo was at the bottom of the page. The article says the Muslim student association was later replaced by ISNA (Islamic Society of North America). I went to the Muslim student association web site and they were complaining because they were being investigated by the U.S. Attorney for terrorism funding problems. Perhaps that's why they were replaced by a new logo.

The anonymous writer titles his piece "A brief history of Islam in the United States". He writes:

The presence of Islam in the New world began with the Moriscoes (whoever they are) who accompanied the Spanish invaders.

The last place in Spain the muslims held was Granada. It fell in Jan. 1492 to the Christian King Ferdinand. Columbus did not sail until Oct. 1492. Spain by this time was officially a Christian country. There were no muslims on that trip. Columbus left a few sailors on Haiti and told them to build a fort with a moat and when he came back on the next voyage the fort was burned and they were all dead.

The Spanish invaders who sailed in the sixteenth century to Central and South America came from a country that had expelled the Jews and Muslims. If you came from Spain you came as a Christian.

Spain never had control of more than a small fraction of the United States. They had a few forts along the coast, and didn't have that long after the U.S. became a country. They claimed territory, but never controlled what they laid claim to. Spain was important to Central and South America, but they were never an important part of the United States of America formation. Muslims had no part in that formation because they were not here.

The writer continues:

Following their time, great numbers of Muslim slaves were imported to this continent to work on the plantations of the south.

This is not true. There were slaves imported, but they were not muslim. The majority of slaves imported to America came from the Atlantic coast in an area of Ghana and Benin called the Slave coast of Africa. They even came from further south in Guinea, but no where near the Sahara. The only belief that they ever practiced in the Americas was Voodoo.

The Arabs and middle easterners had been slaving out of Africa for centuries, and after they became muslim their slaves did the same mostly to gain freedom. According to Muslim law, a slave who becomes a muslim is free and cannot be sold.

When the U.S. began to purchase slaves deep in equatorial Africa they brought no religion except a practice of voodoo. They spoke many different dialects, none of them Arabic. They came from areas south of any muslim influence. Even today the muslims still haven't conquered them.

There were no great numbers of muslim slaves imported to this country as the writer claims. I have noticed in reading muslim web sites and commentary that they make the most outrageous claims with nothing to back it up.

Here are some stats from another muslim web site that said the first muslim group to form and build a mosque was in 1915 in Maine. A few were built in the 30's, but there were no large groups in the United States until the 1960's.

The claim that the muslims are the fastest growing religion in America is another falsehood. Those who have left Islam cite that statement as Islamic propaganda.

Here is a web site article written by a black African on slavery, who gives his name unlike the writer of the above.

Black Africa on slavery

Fifi

moxiect
December 7, 2004 - 10:02 pm


Mahlia, to clarify I do enjoy the exchange of culture topics. Your insight, experiences, and knowledge is a tremendous help to me. My confusion relates to who is who, it's like trying to follow a large family tree and there in lies my confusion, I get lost in the shuffle.

Justin
December 7, 2004 - 11:14 pm
Linkage in 76 to Colorado State edu. and labeled MSA turns out to contain some questionable data. Fifi's expansion of the slave contention and the questions she raises about the growth data leave me uncertain about the usefulness of this data. Is there a valid secondary source? CIA said there were as many Muslims in the country as Jews and perhaps as many as Methodists. I found that extraordinary.

Justin
December 7, 2004 - 11:23 pm
The genealogy of these early Khalifs is very relevant to an understanding of the current split between Sunni and Shiite. Interestingly,I think, but am not sure, that Irag is 90% Sunni and 10% Shiite while Persia is 90% Shiite and 10% Sunni. I wonder how that split came about. Also, I wonder about the Houseins in Irag and in Jordan. There must be some genealogy connecting them.

robert b. iadeluca
December 8, 2004 - 04:22 am
You guys are terrific! Even as the confusion exists, our discussing it still helps us to gradually see the picture. As indicated earlier, sort of like following up on our own family tree. Justin, like yourself, I am also interested in the Sunni/Shiite background and division because it seems so relevant in Iraq these days.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 8, 2004 - 04:23 am
The Umayyad Caliphate

661-750

robert b. iadeluca
December 8, 2004 - 04:30 am
"Let us do Muawiya justice.

"He had won his power first through appointment as governor of Syria by the virtuous Omar -- then by leading the reaction against the murder of Othman -- then by intrigues so subtle that forces had seldom to be used.

"He said:-'I apply not my sword where my lash suffices nor my lash where my tongue is not enough. And even if there be one hair binding me to my fellow men, I do not let it break. When they pull I loosen, and if they loosen I pull.'

"His path to power was less incarnadined than most of those that have opened new dynasties.

"Like other usurpers, he felt the need to hedge his throne with splendor and ceremony. He took as his model the Byzantine emperors who had taken as their model the Persian King of Kings. The persistence of that monarchical pattern from Cyrus to our time suggests its serviceability in the government and exploitation of an unletterd population.

"Muawiya felt his methods justified by the prosperity that came under his rule, the quieting of tribal strife, and the consolidation of Arab power from the Oxus to the Nile.

"Thinking the hereditary principle the sole alternative to chaotic struggles for an elective caliphate, he declared his son Yezid heir apparent and exacted an oath of fealty to him from all the realm."

Could we describe Muawiya as a benign despot? Is that too strong? -- too weak? And considering that the Caliph is elected, could we consider that a form of democracy? The Pope is elected and I don't suppose we call the Roman Catholic Church a democracy.

Robby

JoanK
December 8, 2004 - 04:30 am
If I understood Mahlia's link, it seemed to be saying that the Caliphate ended when Turkey secularized its government. Do I have that right? If so, I guess we'll find out how it came to be associated with Turkey. Is it true that now there is no one religeous leader of Islam? Or am I confused?

robert b. iadeluca
December 8, 2004 - 04:44 am
Here are some definitions of INCARNADINE.

Robby

Traude S
December 8, 2004 - 07:43 am
May I backtrack a moment, please.

In post # 71 Durant's quote says that after the Battle of the Camel, "Aisha was escorted with all courtey to her home in MEDINA".

But the linked reference in # 72 (last paragrap of Dr. Ahmad Shafaat's article) says "Ayesha returned to MAKKAH"

It should be possible to determine whether Aisha/Ayesha went back to MEDINA or to MECCA; there IS a difference, I believe. Whose information do we believe in this case (or in case of future discrepancies) ?

Persian
December 8, 2004 - 07:55 am
Here is another link to an article on Muslim slaves in the USA and includes well established sources, including Dr. Sulayman S. NYang, a good friend and former colleague, who is the former Chair of the Department of African Studies at Howard University, Washington, DC; a former African diplomat; and well respected scholar.

The article also contains a link to additional resources under the title FURTHER READING ABOUT MUSLIM SLAVES IN AMERICA. It goes without saying that while Muslim slaves (and families) may NOT have identified themselves openly as Muslims, their traditions as Muslims remained with them. And as is also noted in the article, this topic is little known (and less well understood) outside the African American community. A quick search through the Library of Congress online catalog also brought up additional resources.

http://www.islamamerica.org/history.cfm

Justin
December 8, 2004 - 03:45 pm
Mahlia: Your linkage in 76 is the very same as in 99. This time however, we have two sources-Elizabeth Siddequi and Dr. NYang. She says the evidence is fragmentary and relatively unknown outside the Black community. We here in the Story of Civ. discussion have watched archeologists build entire civilizations such as Sumeria on skimpy evidence and then accepted the premise of existence. Free enquiry is essential to good scholarship and a premise, no matter the validity, gives one research direction. Let's hope Liz and Dr. NYang find the rest of the story and confirm or deny it's accuracy.

robert b. iadeluca
December 8, 2004 - 05:19 pm
"When Muawiya died (680), a war of succession repeated the early history of his reign. The Moslems of Kufa sent word to Husein, son of Ali, that if he would come to them and make their city his capital, they would fight for his elevation to the caliphate. Husein set out from Mecca with his family and seventy devoted followers.

"Twenty-five miles north of Kufa the caravan was intercepted by a force of Yezid's troops under Obeidallah. Husein offered to submit but his band chose to fight.

"Husein's nephew Qasim, ten years old, was struck by one of the first arrows and died in his uncle's arms. One by one Husein's brothers, sons, cousins, and nephews fell. Every man in the group was killed while the women and children looked on in horror and terror.

"When Husein's severed head was brought to Obeidallah, he carelessly turned it over with his staff. One of his officers protested:- 'Gently, he was the grandson of the Prophet. By Allah! I have seen those lips kissed by the blessed mouth of Mohammed' (680).

"At Kerbela, where Husein fell, the Shia Moslems built a shrine to his memory. Yearly they re-enact there the tragedy in a passion play, worshiping the memory of Ali, Hasan, and Husein."

Beheading seems to be a common practice among the Arabs.

And once again we see a site sacred to the Shia Moslems. I am intrigued by the fact that so much of what Durant is telling us took place in what is now Iraq. Again I wonder how many of the military are aware of this.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 8, 2004 - 05:35 pm
Here is info about the BATTLE OF KERBELA.

Robby

Persian
December 8, 2004 - 06:39 pm
JUSTIN - I listed the second link when I noticed that although the article was excerpted, it included Nyang's comments, as well as three other references AND a longer list of references, which I cited. I assumed that posters would recognize that it was similar, but the first did not include the references. The disclaimer in the opening paragraph about all scholars not agreeing is exactly the case, but the topic is, as I said, generally much better known in the African American community.

ROBBY - much of what we have discussed about the customs and culture of the area was part of the pre-departure and in-country briefings which my son received last year in Iraq. He added to that information with frequent phone calls in the middle of the night (US EST) which always began "Mom, we're briefing in 10 minutes. Answer this question . . . "

Justin
December 8, 2004 - 10:03 pm
US newspapers and magazines reporting on the Iraq War spell Shi'a with a double ii as in Shiite. If Shi'a is preferred, the press should be informed. An American Islamic group should undertake the task.

robert b. iadeluca
December 9, 2004 - 04:04 am
"Abdallah, son of Zobeir, continued the revolt. Yezid's Syrian troops defeated him and besieged him in Mecca. Rocks from their catapults fell upon the sacred enclosure and split the Black Stone into three pieces. The Kaaba caught fire and was burned to the ground (683).

"Suddenly the siege was lifted. Yezid had died and the army was needed in Damascus.

"In two years of royal chaos three caliphs held the throne. Finally Abd-al-Malik, son of a cousin of Muawiya, ended the disorder with ruthless courage and then governed with relative mildness, wisdom, and justice. His general Hajjaj ibn Yusuf subdued the Kufans and renewed the siege of Mecca. Abdallah, now seventy-two, fought bravely, urged on by his centenarian mother. He was defeated and killed. His head ws sent as a certified check to Damascus. His body, after hanging for some time on a gibbet, was presented to his mother (692).

"During the ensuing peace Abd-al-Malik wrote poetry, patronized letters, attended to eight wives and reared fifteen sons, of whom four succeeded to his throne. His cognomen meant Father of Kings.

"His reign of twenty years paved the way for the accomplishments of his son, Walid I (705-15). The march of Arab conquest was now resumed. Balkh was taken in 705, Bokhara in 709, Spain in 711, Samarkand in 712.

"In the eastern provinces Hajjaj governed with a creative energy that equaled his barbaritics. Marshes were drained, arid tracts were irrigated and the canal system was restored and improved. Not content with which the general, once a school master, revolutionized Arabic orthography by introducing diacritical marks.

"Walid himself was a model king, far more interested in administration than in war. He encouraged industry and trade with new markets and better roads -- built schools and hospitals -- including the first lazar houses known -- and homes for the aged, the crippled, and the blind -- enlarged and beautified the mosques of Mecca, Medina, and Jerusalem, and raised at Damascus a still greater one which still exists.

"Amid these labors he composed verses, wrote music, played the lute, listened patiently to other poets and musicians, and caroused every second day."

Your comments about these goings-on, please?

Robby

Justin
December 9, 2004 - 02:24 pm
I wonder what Durant means when he says the Khalif "caroused" every second day. These people were not drinkers. The man was already attending to eight wives. These fellows are of mythical proportions.

Malryn (Mal)
December 9, 2004 - 02:52 pm
Moslem Conquests Timeline

Justin
December 9, 2004 - 04:36 pm
The Time line of Moslim battles is well worth reading. It gave me a very clear understanding of the extent reached, in the Middle east,by Islam. Eventually, Islam reached down into France and across into Spain. El Cid was the boy who stopped the advance into Spain. The thrust ended in the 10th century and in the eleventh century the European Catholics began the Crusades. The time line of battle should have been extended to 2001 for the contest continues. Make no mistake. Islam and the Jews are at it and a Christian ruler in the US has taken a hand. The millennia long war continues.

robert b. iadeluca
December 9, 2004 - 05:01 pm
"Walid's brother and successor Suleiman (715-17) wasted lives and wealth in a vain attempt upon Constantinople, solaced himself with good food and bad women, and received the praise of posterity only for bequeathing his power to his cousin.

"Omar II (717-20) was resolved to atone in one reign for all the impiety and liberality of his Umayyad predecessors. The practice and propagation of the faith were the consuming interests of his life.

"He dressed so simply, wore so many patches, that no stranger took him for a king. He bade his wife surrender to the public treasury the costly jewels that her father had given her, and she obeyed. He informed his harem that the duties of government would absorb him to their neglect and gave them leave to depart. He ignored the poets, orators, and scholars who had depended on the court but drew to his counsel and companionship the most devout among the learned in his realm.

"He made peace with other countries, withdrew the army that had besieged Constantinople and called in the garrisons that had guarded Moslem cities hostile to Umayyad rule.

"Whereas his predecessors had discouraged conversions to Islam on the ground that less poll taxes would come to the state, Omar speeded the acceptance of Islam by Christians, Zoroastrians, and Jews. When his fiscal agents complained that his policy was ruining the treasury, he replied:-'Glad would I be, by Allah, to see everybody become Moslem, so that you and I would have to till the soil with our own hands to earn a living.'

"Clever councilors thought to stay the tide of conversions by requiring circumcision. Omar, another Paul, bade them dispense with it. Upon those who still refused conversion, he laid severe restrictions, excluded them from governmental employment, and forbade them to build new shrines.

"After a reign of less than three years he sickened and died."

There's more than one way to skin a cat (as my father used to say).

Robby

Persian
December 9, 2004 - 07:05 pm
Tonight's evening news included an announcement that a new program on Muslims in America (entitled Bridges) will soon be presented to cable TV for consdieration of inclusion in their regular programing.

The producers are a Muslim family who "don't want their kids to grow up thinking all Muslims are terrorists, as represented almost daily in the media." And they also hope to provide an educational opportunity for non-Muslims, who might like to learn more about Muslims in the USA. The program will include segments on the news, cooking, cartoons, celebrations, the meaning of religious holidays, and life's issues for Muslims (and how they are dealt with in a Muslim family). The program will be offered in English, so that non-Muslims can learn more about Muslim families.

Of course, the biggest challenge will be to convince cable officials that this new program will be of interest to viewers!

Fifi le Beau
December 9, 2004 - 07:38 pm
Mahlia Post #99

While this link is the same as the other link you gave us, it did have this in the heading. Evidence exists that muslims visited North America before Columbus. It is believed that Mansa Abu Bakr of Mali traveled to the Gulf of Mexico in 1312.

The writer has given a name and a certain date, but gives no proof of where he was supposed to land etc. The Gulf of Mexico is a big place. She also doesn't explain how he got from Mali and the Sahara to the Americas and offers no proof of anything. The name as author on this piece of propaganda is 'Elisabeth Siddiqui'. I could not find much about her except she lectures on pottery and art. She may or may not know art, but she knows nothing about history.

Sulayman Nyang from Gambia was in Saudi Arabia working at the Embassy there, and the next thing you know he's in the United States teaching at Howard in Washington D.C. The most interesting fact about him is his connection to Dar al Islam.

In looking at the web site this article was on, I could not find a home page to see who they were. That is because they were all set up by Dar al Islam. I am providing a link to their site and their main page has an important bit of information called 'Our Story'.

The meeting at the Kaaba in Mecca, Saudi Arabia between an Industrialist and an American born muslim was the foundation of Dar al Islam. Their plans were to establish Dar al Islam (house of submission) or (abode of Islam) in America. It is a term widely used in the Islamic world to refer to those lands under muslim government. It is important to Dar al Islam to expand.

They have established a tax exempt organization (now in the education business) based in New Mexico, but as they say they are everywhere to recruit new members to Islam. They have lecturers who go out to high schools and promote their message. If the articles such as the one by Elisabeth Siddiqui on their web site are an example of their message, then the schools are being fed a bunch of propaganda.

Any organization that is open and above board would have the name of the Industrialist who funded this scheme and the muslim American that he met in Saudi Arabia and is carrying it out. They are hiding who they are and what they are, but unlike Saudi Arabia we in this country have 'sunshine laws'.

http://www.daralislam.org/

Fifi

Persian
December 9, 2004 - 09:23 pm
FIFI - I appreciate your careful reading of the article and your search for detailed information (and authenticity) about the author and her comments. I, too, wished that there had been more information available. It is always preferable to know the background of the writer and "from whence they speak."

However, may I mention that there are certainly much more interesting aspects to Sulayman NYang than Dar al Islam. One of the most significant is that he is a highly respcted, balanced voice among well recognized and distinguished Islamic scholars, who willingly and in my experience, always graciously speaks about Islam and its adherents in a manner which is clear to non-Muslim listeners. I have witnessed this first-hand on many occasions at professional conferences, heard the questions posed to him and his responses.

Dare I post another link? Although the link below carries a photo of NYang which is at least 20 years old (perhaps more so, as he is currently a distinguished "gray beard") I thought his background might be of interest. I noticed a similar document linked to the Pew Trust from which NYang has received support for some of his research.

If this discussion were set up to formally invite Guest participants (as I understand some others do with Guest Authors), Nyang would be one of the first I'd recommend as an authoritative voice on Islam.

http://www.coloradocollege.edu/academics/anniversary/Participants/Nyang.htm

Persian
December 9, 2004 - 10:50 pm
ROBBY - have you eased into the Eastern mindset enough yet to give us your impression of what "carousing every second day" might mean?

Malryn (Mal)
December 9, 2004 - 11:10 pm
MAHLIA and all, since I'm on standby, ROBBY wrote to me on the 7th that he's still having trouble with his computer. He said he is able to receive and write emails, but he can't open links without receiving an illegal operation message, and seems able only to post the quotes from Durant's book at this time. He said someone is to look at his computer this week, but that it might take up to two weeks before it is completely cured of its problems.

Mal

JoanK
December 9, 2004 - 11:54 pm
While he was carousing every second day (maybe he needed a day to get over his hangover), Durant says he "built schools and hospitals -- including the first lazar houses known ". Does anyone know what a lazer house is? Surely, it can't refer to lazer surgery?

Justin
December 9, 2004 - 11:54 pm
Mahlia; Do not be reluctant to post links. I cannot emphasize that advice strongly enough. Links may be criticised for any number of reasons including authenticity but one should never fail to link when doing so appears to be an opportunity to enhance the discussion. I am sure your sense of academic freedom will encourage you to make courageous choices.

Fifi: I too am troubled by the issues you raise about the article and some of the background material about Dar al Islam. The sponsor of the group is not known-An American industrialist and an American Muslim is not telling us enough. Moreover, I thought it was not possible for a non muslim to appear at the Kaaba. If the industrialist was a Muslim the article should have said so. No evidence is given for any of the claims including the 14th century visit by a Morisco. (Even the questionable early visit to the east coast by Vikings is supported by evidence on the ground.)There is no effort to make a case for any of these claims. They are just propounded.

Bubble
December 10, 2004 - 01:57 am
laz·ar (lazÆÃr, l!ÆzÃr), n. a person infected with a disease, esp. leprosy. [1300–50; ME < ML lazarus leper, special use of LL Lazarus LAZARUS]

from the Webster's dictionary

Bubble
December 10, 2004 - 02:04 am
Here is an interesting site on the World Missions Atlas Project.Chose a country and a People groups and you can see the religion of the different groups in the population. Look at Somalia for example, all are indicated as Islam, but see the variety of languages!

http://www.worldmap.org/php/country.php

Bubble
December 10, 2004 - 03:16 am


Famous Atheist Now Believes in God

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&e=1&u=/ap/believing_atheist

robert b. iadeluca
December 10, 2004 - 04:09 am
I am so pleased about the interaction among you participants! By the time we finish Durant's section on Islam (and we have only just begun!), we will be far more knowledgeable about that culture than the average TV watcher who knows only about terrorists.

"Another side of Moslem character and custom appears in Yezid II (717-24), last of the royal sons of Abd-al-Malik.

"Yezid loved a slave girl Habiba as Omar II had loved Islam. While still a youth he had bought her for 4000 pieces of gold. His brother Suleiman, then caliph, had compelled him to return her to the seller but Yezid had never forgotten her beauty and her tenderness.

"When he came to power his wife asked him:- 'Is there, my love, anything in the world left you to desire?' He said:- 'Yes, Habiba.' The dutiful wife sent for Habiba, presented her to Yezid, and retired into the obscurity of the harem.

"One day, feasting with Habiba, Yezid playfully threw a grape pit into her mouth. It choked her and she died in his arms. A week later Yezid died of grief.

"Hisham (724-43) governed the realm for nineteen years in justice and peace -- improved administration -- reduced expenses -- and left the treasury full at his death. But the virtues of a saint may be the ruin of a ruler. Hisham's armies were repeatedly defeated, rebellion simmered in the provinces, disaffection spread in a capital that longed for a spendthrift king.

"His successors disgraced a hitherto competent dynasty by luxurious living and negligent rule.

"Walid II (743-4) was a skeptic libertine and candid epicurean. He read with delight the news of his uncle Hisham's death -- imprisoned Hishram's son -- seized the property of the late Caliph's relatives -- and emptied the treasury with careless government and extravagant largess.

"His enemies reported that he swam in a pool of wine and slaked his thirst as he swam -- that he used the Koran as a target for his archery -- that he sent his mistresses to preside in his place at the public prayer. Yezid, son ofWalid I, slew the wastrel, ruled for six months, and died (744).

"His brother Ibrahim took the throne but could not defend it. An able general deposed him and reigned for six tragic years as Merwan II, the last calipyh of the Umayyad line."

The changeover from ruler to ruler seems exceedingly rapid. We, of the West, think these days of Islam versus the Western civilization but there appears to be much intrigue that goes on within the Islam civilization itself.

And what about that comment that "the virtues of a saint may be the ruin of a ruler?" Do people, indeed, long for a spendthrift ruler?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
December 10, 2004 - 10:43 am
NY Times: Muslim Scholars Increasingly Debate Unholy War

Scrawler
December 10, 2004 - 11:17 am
Doesn't all this sound familiar? If I remember correctly didn't we read about the Roman emperors doing exactly what the Caliph and his followers did? How than can we all be so different if our motives and our actions are same?

Justin
December 10, 2004 - 03:03 pm
I read the ninth Sura on Repentance and agree with Mohammad Sharhur. It is one of the chapters in the Qu'ran that can easily be used to justify attacks on others. If the Muslim chooses not to obey an order to slay idolators he may expect punishment in hell. There are similar passages in the the OT. Unfortunately, the Muslim is more attuned to directives in the Qu'ran than most Christians and Jews to the OT. It was not always so. The Crusades are a fine example of Christians following the directions of their religious leader-Pope Urban and the message of their Holy Book.

Sharhur speaks of Suras that direct the Muslim to a more peaceful and more honorable way of life. Mahlia, are there any Suras that might be used to support a more democratic way of living among Muslims. Are they doomed to be ruled by Clerics?

robert b. iadeluca
December 10, 2004 - 07:11 pm
"From a worldly point of view the Umayyad caliphs had done well for Islam. They had extended its political boundaries farther than these would ever reach again. Barring some illucid intervals, they had given the new empire an orderly and liberal government.

"But the lottery of hereditary monarchy placed on the throne, in the eighth century, incompetents who exhausted the treasury, surrendered administration to eunuchs, and lost control over that Arab individualism which has nearly always prevented a united Moslem power.

"The old tribal enmities persisted as political factions. Hashimites and Umayyads hated one another as if they were more closely related than they really were. Arabia, Egypt, and Persia resented the authority of Damascus. The proud Persians, from contending that they were as good as the Arabs, passed to claiming superiority and could no longer brook Syrian rule.

"The descendants of Mohammed were scandalized to see at the head of Islam an Umayyad clan that had included the most unielding and last converted of the Prophet's enemies.

"They were shocked by the easy morals, perhaps by the religious tolerance, of the Umayyad caliphs. They prayed for the day when Allah would send some savior to redeem them from this humiliating rule.

"All that these hostile forces needed was some initiative personality to give them unity and voice.

"Abu al-Abbas, great-great-grandson of an uncle of Mohammed, provided the leadership from a hiding place in Palestine, organized the revolt in the provinces, and won the ardent support of the Shia Persian nationalists.

"In 749 he proclaimed himself caliph at Kufa. Merwan II met the rebel forces under Abu al-Abbas' uncle Abdallah on the river Zab. He was defeated. A year later Damascus yielded to seige.

"Merwan was caught and killed and his head was sent to Abu al-Abbas. The new Caliph was not satisfied. He said:- 'Had they quaffed my blood, it would not have quenched their thirst. Neither is my wrath slaked by this man's blood.'

"He named himself al-Saffah, the Bloodthirsty, and directed that all princes of the Umayyad line should be hunted out and slain to forestall any resurrection of the fallen dynasty.

"Abdallah, made governor of Syria, managed the matter with humor and dispatch. He announced an amnesty to the Umayyads and to confirm it he invited eighty of their leaders to dinner. While they ate, his hidden soldiers, at his signal, put them all to the sword. Carpets were spread over the fallen maen and the feast was resumed by the Abbasid diners over the bodies of their foes and to the music of dying groans.

"The corpses of sevral Umayyad caliphs were exhumed, the almost fleshless skeletons were scourged, hanged, and burned, and the ashes were scattered to the winds."

So much for being "civilized." And we are horrified by what we hear in the news these days?

Robby

Justin
December 10, 2004 - 11:11 pm
When people tell us religion is good thing, we have only to refer them to all the examples of evil comitted in, for, and by, religion to refute the case. Religion is a man made concept designed to implement a power structure that benefits the creators and hurts almost everyone else in the long run. If there is thought to be a benefit in beieving in an omnipotent being, believe in yourself and you will be omnipotent. It is Islam that retards Muslim society. It is Christianity that makes man a sinner.

It is typical of religious groups that Cardinal Mahoney can call his priests sinners, forgive them as he does other sinners, and transfer them to other parishes with out recognizing that his priests have broken the law and should be punished by society. Cardinal Mahoney is an accomplice and should be treated as such for not reporting crimes.

robert b. iadeluca
December 11, 2004 - 05:57 am
On Wednesday of this week I was fortunate in catching the Diane Rehm show on NPR where she was interviewing John Dominic Crossan who wrote a book entitled "In Search of Paul." The author says that St. PAUL was fighting the Roman Empire as much as he was having a spiritual experience. To me the interview was intriguing after my having gone through Durant's "Caesar and Christ." Crossan says that Jesus said he was the son of God and the Roman Emperor was saying that he was God or the son of God -- and this conflict could not continue. Read the description of the book. It will bring back memories of our discussions of the Roman Empire.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 11, 2004 - 06:07 am
The Abbasid Caliphate

750-1058

robert b. iadeluca
December 11, 2004 - 06:11 am
"Abu al-Abbas al-Saffah found himself ruler of an empire extending from the Indus to the Atlantic -- Sind (northwest India), Baluchistan, Afghanistan, Turkestan, Persia, Mesopotamia, Armenia, Syria, Palestine, Cyprus, Crete, Egypt, and North Africa.

"Moslem Spain, however, rejected his authority and in the twelfth year of his reign Sind threw off his rule.

"Hated in Damascus, uncomfortable in turbulent Kufa, al-Saffah made Anbar, north of Kufa, his capital. The men who had helped him to power, and now administered the state, were predominatnltly Persian in orgin or culture.

"After al-Saffah had drunk his fill of blood, a certain Iranian refinement and urbanity entered into the manners of the court. A succession of enlightened caliphs dignified the growth of wealth by promoting a brilliant flowering of art and literature, science and philosophy.

"After a century of humiliation, Persia conquered her conquerors."

As I read this I think of the present day situation. Concerning Persia, I think of Iran. Is there a refinement there which is not found in Iraq? And isn't Sind (northwest India) what we now call Pakistan where they are fighting over the Kashmir?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 11, 2004 - 06:26 am
Here is a MAP of the Muslim World around the year 750. As the Muslims look back at their history, can there be any wonder why their current attitude is the way it is?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 11, 2004 - 11:28 am
Here is a HISTORY OF INDIA telling about Sind. Note the paragraph beginning with "During the Medieval Period . . ."

Robby

HubertPaul
December 11, 2004 - 11:35 am
It does not serve any purpose to over-emphasize what religion once was historically, whether good or evil. We must consider what it is now, in our own time.

The history of religion is often a history of bigotry and fanaticism. But it contains the record of divinely, inspired, reverence deserving men and women. No doubt, much of religion is mere superstitious nonsense, but the portion that remains is worthwhile to humanity.

Unfortunately, spiritual movements usually deteriorate into fanatical religious sects with passive followers.

Justin
December 11, 2004 - 04:19 pm
Hubert: I disagree. We are dealing here with history. Our own time is a colateral extention of history. I think you hit upon one of the great evils of religion when you said, " unfortunately, spititual movements usually deteriorate into fanatical religious sects with passive followers." It is the passive followers who give power to the spiritual movement and then do not act responsibly in controlling the actions of the movement. Here in lies the greatest evil in religious movements and society has paid greatly for that passivity.

I am always looking for good in religion but rarely find any. If anyone in this conversation can point to some good in religion I will let it weigh in the balance.

3kings
December 11, 2004 - 07:12 pm
JUSTIN would you not agree that in so far as the New Testament is a religious document, there is contained therein much good moral philosophy. (and a lot of irrelevant nonsense, too. i.e Revelation ).

"Christianity has not been tried, and found wanting. It was tried and found difficult, and henceforth ignored. "

As an aside, there is the following, that gives I think an instance of what you ask for. Two years ago there arrived in NZ an Algerian MUSLIM who had fled his country after leading a political party that won an election. He and his party were prevented from assuming office by the Algerian Army, urged on by the French Oil companies, who had ambitions of retaining their Colonial power status. (An example of the use of Power,such as promoted recently by ROBBY. BG. )

This man asked for refugee status, but it was refused by the NZ Secret Service Intelligence, who had been, apparently, advised by the current Algerian and French authorities that he was a terrorist.

The grounds for this belief were never publically stated stated, and he was never charged with any offense, but he was held in solitary confinement for about 12months. On his release from solitary, concerned civil liberties lawyers backed by the Churches ( principally Catholic ) laboured over 12 months for him to be released into the Dominican Friars care.

They pursued the case right through the court system up to the Supreme Court, which finally granted bail to the poor guy. The bail conditions are that he be looked after by the Dominicans and live with them until he is granted a court hearing, when finally charged with some specific offense.

He lives with them, fully practicing his religious duties, and they say they are delighted to have such a person, knowledgeable in Moslem teachings, to give them an understanding of that religion.

I think this is an example of religious entities acting in friendship and goodwill, to protect the rights of citizens even in the turmoil of America's war on those whom it would brand as terrorist.

(I seem to be defending the Catholic Church against attacks by you on that entity. Which is strange, for I'm not a church person, being an Agnostic with leanings towards Atheism. Do you think it is possible that I have misunderstood you, somewhere along the line ? If so, I appologise. )++ Trevor

JoanK
December 11, 2004 - 07:28 pm
I am also an agnostic, but I have known many people who have drawn from their religion great strength and a great capacity for kindness and service to other people. While we hear so many stories of cruelty in the name of religion, it is also true, at least in this country, that when we hear stories of great kindness and service to others (as in Trevor's story) it almost always is in a context of religious faith. There does not seem to be anyplace else in our society where these values are promoted.

Justin
December 12, 2004 - 12:56 am
I acknowledge that people are able to find comfort in following a religion, any religion, but unfortunately, those people are most often the ones Hubert is talking about. They are passive and often assume the priesthood will set policy in accordance with God's will, which is ok with them-the parishioners. Such passivity has allowed the priesthood to torture people such as Gallileo and to move pedophiles around from parish to parish.

The Catholic Church may be coming in for criticism because we have just finished covering it's birth. I have been no less critical of Islam. If you will look back in Oriental Heritage you will find my remarks just as sharp tinged when we covered Judaism and the many other religious sects that have been introduced over the centuries.

There are millions upon millions of religious people in the world. Many are engaged in charity work. That's commendable. Religious people cared for the lepers when no one else would come near them. Some serve in prisons. On the other hand, they feed the drunks on New York's Bourerie for the price of a sermon. Others take care of unwed mothers to help them avoid abortion. The hospitals are helpful so long as you agree to save the child over the mother in tight cases.

Most priests, rabbis, and ministers, enter the service for altruistic reasons. Unfortunately, Church policy does not always coincide with the needs of parishioners. When I was a boy the Church frowned on divorce and separation. (It may still have that policy.) Women I knew in the parish who went to the priest in hopes he would help when their husbands beat them up received a directive to return to the abusive husbands.

We have not yet begun to explore the abuses of religion. We are looking at Islam as a side issue and have been hard pressed to find the good in it. Even with Mahlia's help. As we enter the Middle Ages the ravages of religion will become more and more evident.

I think we should search for the good in religion as we go through these historical periods. Perhaps, the scales will balance and we will conclude that humanity is better off because we have had religions to guide us. But let us not hide from the truth. Let us look at all of it-the good and the bad, and then when it is all over we can assess it on the merits.

robert b. iadeluca
December 12, 2004 - 05:24 am
Trevor and Justin, well thought out comments and certainly worthy of deep contemplation. Your remarks about religion in general are relevant to this forum on "The Age of Faith" and I am not urging that they stop but I hope that everyone here would also give comments related to the words of Durant on what was happening in the Muslim world.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 12, 2004 - 05:27 am
"Al-Saffah died of small pox in 754. His half brother Abu Jafar succeeded him under the name of al-Mansur, 'the Victorious.'

"Mansur's mother was a Berber slave. Of the thirty-seven Abbasid caliphs, slaves mothered all but three through the institution of concubinage and the legitimation of its progeny. In this way the Moslem aristocracy was perpetually recruited by the democracy of chance and the fortunes of love and war.

"The new Caliph was forty, tall, slender, bearded, dark, austere -- no slave to woman's beauty, no friend of wine or song, but a generous patron of letters, sciences, and arts. A man of great ability and little scruple, by his firm statesmanship, he established a dynasty that might else have died at al-Saffah's death.

"He gave himself sedulously to administration -- built a splended new capital at Baghdad -- reorganized the government and the army into their lasting form -- kept a keen eye on every department and almost every transaction -- periodically forced corrupt officials -- including his brother -- to disgorge their peculations into the treasury -- and dispensed the funds of the state with conscientious parsimony that won him no friends, but the title of 'Father of Farthings.'

"At the outset of his reign he established on a Persian model an institution -- the vizierate -- which was to play a major role in Abbasid history. As his first vizier, he appointed Khalid, son of Barmak. This family of Barmakids ws cast for a heavy part in the Abbasid drama.

"Al-Mansur and Khalid created the order and prosperity whose full fruits were to fall into the lap of Harun al-Rashid."

An interesting concept -- an aristocracy recruited in a democratic way through the use of concubinage. Any thoughts on this or other of Durant's remarks above?

And we all note the name Baghdad which is in the news every day. Do we think of its history as we watch the TV?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
December 12, 2004 - 07:45 am
The history we're currently discussing is as bloody and often as dissolute as that of other civilizations we've talked about here.



People in St. Augustine, Florida who are considered the aristocracy are descended from the indentured Minorcan servants of Andrew Turnbull, a former British Consul at Smyrna, Greece. These Minorcans of Roman and Latin heritage were treated like slaves and worked in his indigo fields in New Smyrna, Florida. 900 of them died and many of the remaining 600 walked from New Smyrna to St. Augustine, 67 miles, in 1777 and settled there. The English had conquered St. Augustine from the Spain in 1763. Florida went back to Spain in 1783. The United States bought Florida, and it didn't become a state until 1845. I think the story of this more-European-than-not town is an interesting part of our history. What Robby said about slave aristocracy reminded me of it.



It doesn't take religion to make humanitarians out of people. For the one incident that is publicized in the newspaper there are thousands and thousands of others nobody hears about.

I remember the sudden blinding blizzard in the 50's near Erie, Pennsylvania when my husband and I and our two little boys, one a baby, were caught on the road in a blinding blizzard.

We sat in the car 8 hours unable to move the car. When it started to get dark a man from a house we couldn't even see knocked on the car window and told us to come in. We four and 96 others who had been stranded in the storm were given food and shelter in that modest house. Nobody asked anybody else what religion they were, and I'm sure there were many faiths, or none at all, represented. The home that was opened to us was only one that night that was a haven for people in distress.

The next day the National Guard took women and children to the train station. I had help from an openly gay man when I tried to get myself, my little boy and my baby onto the train. Help on the train from a priest (I knew that because of his collar), and help from others, whose religion I will never know, when I got back to Buffalo. I'm positive there are many, many other true stories like this.



In my mind, religion's okay for those who want it, as long as it isn't thrust down my throat, and as long as it stays away from politics and government. It's too bad all religions aren't as peaceful as the Quaker one is.

Mal

Scrawler
December 12, 2004 - 11:21 am
We live in illusion

And the appearance of things

There is a reality

We are that reality

When you understand this,

You see that you are nothing

And being nothing,

You are everything

That is all. ~ Kalu Rinpoche

The thoughts that are in this poem can apply to religious organizations as well as individuals.

Justin
December 12, 2004 - 05:26 pm
In the reign of the hereditary Khalifs woman were simply a vessel to carry the seed of the Khalif. It did not matter which vessel was carrying the seed. Any vessel would do, concubine or wife, no matter.The practice helps to guarantee an heir. The Khalif may be impotent, but there is little chance the vessel will not be inadequate. This strikes me as the ultimate denigration of women. She is just a body in which to grow a new Khalif.

I am amazed that Buches Galli (Sp.) was able to rise to the top in a society like this. Can any one explain it?

Fifi le Beau
December 12, 2004 - 07:45 pm
Abdallah had invited eighty Umayyads to dinner in an offer of amnesty, and when they were seated he had them put to the sword and resumed dinner over their dying groans.

To squat around a carcass tearing off strips of mutton is the time-honored Nejdi mechanism to fete friends, heal feuds and celebrate great events in Arabia.

The following description by Robert Lacey of modern day Saudi Arabia princes gathering for their nightly dinner in Riyadh from the house of Sa'ud in the early eighties shows that things change slowly if at all in Arabia.

The food is stewed in huge meat kettles, cauldrons which each hold one whole sheep, and the mingled scents of boiled fat and woodsmoke waft across the courtyard. Inside the majlis the guests sip their coffee, and when a new guest arrives they leap to their feet to embrace him, hugging him gently, kissing him on the forehead and, sometimes, rubbing noses with him slowly, smilingly, eyes open.

When the food is ready they leave the majlis to squat down crosslegged on the floor around the huge dishes, a full four feet across, which it takes two men to carry in, staggering a little. A crater of white rice fortifies the rim a foot thick, and rising inside is a pyramid of steaming limbs, ribs, haunches, crowned by the boiled heads of the sheep, their tongues curling between glistening white teeth and bared gums.

The host seizes on the hard pink crescents, yanking them from their gaping jaws to present them to his honored guests; and over the meat mountain a servant pours more delicacies-liver, kidneys, salted little knots of yellowed intestine for chewing like gum, and the thick white tail-pad of fat that is the sign of a well-fed sheep.

Then sleeves are rolled up and fingers go to work as a dozen men circle round the tray. The technique is to mold and knead your rice into a small soggy ball which you flip into your mouth, packing it with strips that you pull off the carcass, or pieces of liver and kidney that your host may present to you, for it is his duty to make sure his guests are content.

After the first eaters withdraw, the second wave of attackers, the household retainers, finish the tray before it is borne away. Servants sprinkle perfume around the princes then they have tea. A boy appears with a small silver brazier. The incense blows out in clouds which the princes sniff and fan into their beards. It is a signal to rise and leave.


Marianne Likowski who married an Arabian and moved to Jeddah in the mid 1940's wrote about life among the women who were princesses and a meal she attended. She describes the teams of black slave girls who attended the princesses at dinner. They straddled the mutton carcasses down the center of the tent, tearing off strips of flesh which they tossed unceremoniously on to the platters of their mistresses.

Of course these are princes and princesses and the average Arabians diet did not have meat as its main course. A camel might be killed for some special occasion, but it was not daily fare. The camels milk however was a necessity.

Fifi

Fifi le Beau
December 12, 2004 - 09:04 pm
Durant writes: "Mansur's mother was a Berber slave. Of the thirty-seven Abbasid caliphs, slaves mothered all but three through the institution of concubinage and the legitimation of its progeny.

The Arabian custom of marrying family members such as the children of their aunts and uncles which would be their first cousins and even closer kin sometimes produced many offspring who were unfit to serve.

Mohammed puts into the Koran all his first cousins on both sides of his family as those he can marry. Men married within the family to keep and hold power with the tribe. This inbreeding could and did lead to weaknesses within groups.

Slaves brought in new blood and the fact that most of the Caliphs came from slaves and not from inbred tribal custom shows that systems flaws. It proved to be more successful than hereditary sucession which produced some lines of insanity and incompetence.

The present Ambassador to the U.S. from Saudi Arabia, Prince Bandar bin Sultan is the offspring of a mother presented to a Saudi prince who never married her according to him. She was called a concubine but she was just a young virgin girl who when she became pregnant was sent home to live with her Aunt and mother. Later Prince Bandar was sent to live with his fathers mother who helped him become part of the royal family. He was eight years old before he met his father.

The kings and princes of Saudi Arabia have hundreds of children, and they may support them, but it's the legitimate offspring of the wives who inherit the chance to rule, not the offspring of concubines and slaves. If they have some talent they may rise to a good position but as Bandar himself says, he was not sent to the best schools, but off to the military to make his way unlike his half-brothers who were the sons of the legal wives.

Fifi

Justin
December 12, 2004 - 11:55 pm
Bandar may be a royal bastard but he quickly found his way to the oil money and an American ambassadorship. Mahlia tells us he is dean of the diplomatic corps, I think.

robert b. iadeluca
December 13, 2004 - 03:39 am
Fifi:-Your posts were so enlightening about Arabian customs. I hope everyone read them in detail. But even as I read about their dining customs, I kept asking myself, is that what determines being civilized? Am I more civilized because I use a knife and a fork? Is it less civilized to eat with the entire dead animal before me rather than eat the slices that the supermarket disguised by wrapping them in plastic?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 13, 2004 - 03:44 am
"After a beneficent reign of twenty two years al-Mansum died on a pilgrimage to Mecca. His son al-Mahdi (775-85) could now afford to be beneficent. He pardoned all but the most dangerous offenders, spent lavishly to beautify the cities, supported music and literature, and administered the empire with reasonable competence.

"Byzantium having seized the opportunity of the Abbasid revolution to recover Arab conquered territory in Asia Minor, al-Mahdi sent an array under his son Harun to renew a theft long sanctified by time. Harun drove the Greeks back to Constantinople and so threatened that capital that the Empress Irene made peace on terms that pledged a yearly payment of 70,000 dinars ($332,500) to the caliphs (784).

"From that time onward al-Mahdi called the youth Harun al-Rashid -- Aaron the Upright. He had previously named another son heir apparent. Now, seeing the far superior capacity of Harun, he asked al-Hadi to waive his claim in favor of his younger brother.

"Al-Hadi, commanding an army in the east, refused, and disobeyed a summons to Baghdad. Al-Mahdi and Harun set out to capture him but al-Mahdi, aged forty three, died on the way.

"Harun -- so counseled by the Barmakid Yahya, son of Khalad -- recognized Hadi as Caliph, and himself as heir appaent.

"As Sa'di was to say:-'Ten dervishes can sleep on one rug but two kings cannot be accommodated in an entire kingdom.'

"Al-Hadi soon set Harun aside, imprisond Yahya, and proclaimed his own son as successor. Shortly thereafter (786) al-Hadi died. Rumor said that hie own mother, favoring Harun, had had him smothered with pillows.

"Harun ascended the throne, made Yahya his vizier, and began the most famous reign in Moslem history."

Durant reminds us that as we continue to talk about the Islamic Empire, that Byzantium also continues on and that the Greeks are in danger of losing Constantinople.

As for the barbaric methods used at that time to eliminate possible heirs to the seat of power, we are reminded of the possible poisoning that took place in the Ukraine recently.

Robby

Bubble
December 13, 2004 - 04:25 am
The entire animal cooked like that is certainly more tasty than those frozen slices you find in storage in the supermarket. There is a special enjoyment too in licking one's greasy fingers after rolling rice or couscous. Customs and traditions surely are not the standard for measuring how civilized a person is?

My parents would have been very civilized: they always ate their fruit, including banana served unpeeled, with knife and fork.

robert b. iadeluca
December 13, 2004 - 07:04 am
This CHART may (or may not) help us to keep the Caliphs straight. Note the division into Shi'ite and Sunni sects.

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
December 13, 2004 - 07:10 am
Fifi, I was fascinated by: "The following description by Robert Lacey of modern day Saudi Arabia princes gathering for their nightly dinner in Riyadh from the house of Sa'ud in the early eighties shows that things change slowly if at all in Arabia"

it reminded me how tasty meat is when it is cooked with the bone. The head of the animal is cooked in water, de-boned and the meat is cut up including the ears and the tongue, it is sold as a delicacy called: FROMAGE DE TÊTE À L'ANCIENNE but how it is made is not mentioned on the label. It's a good thing because who would buy it since we are so fussy now. It is better to keep a secret about what we buy at the grocery store.

Éloïse

robert b. iadeluca
December 13, 2004 - 07:26 am
Here are some events leading up to the DEATH OF AL-HADI.

Robby

Scrawler
December 13, 2004 - 01:08 pm
I think we can only become civilization when we are willing to accept and embrace the customs of other people.

Fifi le Beau
December 13, 2004 - 01:15 pm
Robby your link in #149 on the death of al Hadi gives an overview of a decade of intrigue and infighting. This time period reminds me of the Roman empire as it began its decline. Uneasy the head, that wears the crown. Most of those who survived to reign for longer periods were usually relentless killers.

Long ago I had a book that gave the history of all the caliphs, and it is no longer in my bookcase. The practice of impaling was prominent in the book, and I see from your link that they let one hapless contender hang for three years after being split in half and impaled.

The link says little about heretics except they were hunted and killed with abandon. The fact that some of the heretics came from the Hashimite clan, which was the same tribe as the Caliph, but it did not stop him from killing them even though within tribes it was taboo to war on your own people.

Most countries where Islam is practiced are totally muslim. They have killed off or driven out any dissenters. There are still dissenters in these countries, but they must remain silent for fear of being killed or thrown in prison.

Any dogma which holds their adherents at gun point has much to fear from exposure.

Fifi

robert b. iadeluca
December 13, 2004 - 06:24 pm
"Legends -- above all, the Thousand and One Nights -- picture Harun as a gay and cultured monarch, occasionally despotic and violent, often generous and humane -- so fond of good stories that he had them recorded in state archives, and rewarded a lady raconteur, now and then, by sharing his bed with her.

"All these qualities appear in history escept the gaiety, wich perhaps offended the historians. These depict him first of all as a pious and resolutely orthodox Moslem, who severely restricted the liberties of non-Moslems, made the pilgrimage to Mecca every second year, and performed a hundred prostrations with his daily prayers.

"He drank thirstily but mostly in the privacy of a few chosen friends. He had seven wives and several concubines, eleven sons and fourteen daughters, all by slave girls except al-Emin, his son by the Princess Zobeida.

"He was generous with all forms of his wealth. When his son al-Mamun fell in love with one of Harun's palace maids, the Caliph presented her to him, merely asking him in payment to compose some lines of poetry.

"He enjoyed poetry so intensely that on some occasions he would overwhelm a poet with extravagant gifts, as when he gave the poet Merwan, for one brief but laudatory ode, 5000 pieces of gold ($23,750), a robe of honor, ten Greek slave girls, and a favorite horse.

"His boon companion was the libertine poet Abu Nuwas. Repeatedly angered by the poet's insolence or open immorality, he was repeatedly mollified by exquisite verse.

"He gathered about him in Baghdad an unparalleled galaxy of poets, jurists, physicians, grammarians, rhetors, musicians, dancers, artists, and wits --judged their work with discriminating taste -- rewarded them abundantly -- and was repaid by a thousand metrical doxologies.

"He himself was a poet, a scholar, an impetuous and eloquent orator. No court in history had ever a more brilliant constellation of intellects.

"Contemporary with the Empress Irene in Constantinople and with Charlemagne in France, and coming a little later than Tsuan Tsung at Chang-an, Harun excelled them all in wealth, power, splendor, and the cultural advancement that adorns a rule."

Your comments, please?

Robby

Justin
December 13, 2004 - 06:27 pm
I saw Alexander this afternoon. It is not the same quality as Achilles and the dialogue is stilted. The scenes of Persia and Babylon are full of color and the people have a Persian appearance. The attack on Darius at Issus is a copy of the painting in motion. There are scenes in which the Macedonians march in unison at half step that well depict the power that was Alexander's. He is clearly bisexual and scenes of nude men are not needed to convey the message. As a teen Alexander wrestles but not in the nude. The film is long-three hours and it drags in spots but it also conveys the long journey from Greece to India in the span of the film.

Alexanders first wife is a woman of Bactria. She comes to the wedding completely covered in carpet material as in a burqua. But when she comes to the marriage bed she comes like a tigress. There are some worthwhile scenes in the film if you can put up with the lengthy battle scenes as well. These people are not Greeks as we know them. These are barbarian Macedonians. The role of women is clear but they are not meek and mild.

robert b. iadeluca
December 13, 2004 - 06:50 pm
Read HERE the story of Shahrazad (Scheherazade).

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 13, 2004 - 06:56 pm
Here is the story of the creation of SCHEHERAZADE BY RIMSKY-KORSAKOV.

Robby

Fifi le Beau
December 13, 2004 - 07:27 pm
Here is a link on Abu Nuwas and some of his poetry.

Abu Nuwas bio

Fifi

Bubble
December 14, 2004 - 01:01 am
I always thought Scheherazade's story was a legend only! 1.001 Nights is one of the first full book I received as a child, with the H.C. Andersen tales. Thank you for those two links, Robby.

Malryn (Mal)
December 14, 2004 - 02:18 am
1001 Nights, translated by Richard F. Burton

Bubble
December 14, 2004 - 02:56 am
thanks Mal. Now I will drown in those tales for ...1001 days at least!

This site was last updated on 040525 - under which calendar is that?

robert b. iadeluca
December 14, 2004 - 03:32 am
"Harun was no dillettante. He shared in the lanbor of administration, earned repute as a just judge and -- despite unprecedented liberality and display -- left 48,000,000 dinars ($228,000,000) in the treasury at his death.

"He led his armies personally in the field and maintained all frontiers intact. For the most part, however, he entrusted administration and policy to the wise Yahya.

"Soon after his accession he summoned Yahya and said:- 'I invest you with the rule over my subjects. Rule them as you please. Depose whom you will, appoint whom you will, conduct all affairs as you see fit' and in ratification of his wods he gave Yahya his ring.

"It was an act of extreme and imprudent confidence, but Harun, still a youth of twenty-two, judged himself unprepared to rule so wide a realm. It was almost an act of gratitude to one who had been his tutor, whom he had come to call father, and who had borne imprisonment for his sake.

"Yahya proved to be one of the ablest administrators in history. Affable, generous, judicious, tireless, he brought the government to its highest pitch of efficiency -- established order, security, and justice -- built roads, bridges, inns, canals, and kept all the provinces prosperous even while taxing them severely to fill his master's purse and his own. For he, too, like the Caliph, played patron to literature and art.

"His sons al-Fadl and Jafar received high office from him, acquitted themselves well, paid themselves better. They became millionaires, built palaces, kept their own herds of poets, jesters, and philosophers.

"Harun loved Jafar so well that gossip found scandal in their intimacy. The Caliph had a cloak made with two collars, so that he and Jafar might wear it at the same time, and be two heads with but a single breast.

"Perhaps in this Siamese garb they sampled together the night life of Baghdad."

Somehow this description of a Caliph and his empire reminds me so much of the Caesars and their empires. Are they the same? Is there a difference?

Robby

Persian
December 14, 2004 - 11:20 am
FIFI - "Most countries where Islam is practiced are totally muslim."

May I offer a comment on your post #151. Although I would agree with your statement in regards to the Arab countries of the Gulf, Pakistan Afghanistan, and Indonesia (which has the largest Muslim population in the world), there are substantial Christian populations in Lebanon, Palestine, Syria and Turkey; less so in Egypt,Iraq and Iran.

Of course, Islam is prevalent in the Western border regions of China, but certainly not throughout the country among the majority Han Chinese. And although Islam is prevalent in Northern Africa, the sub-Sahara region includes Christians and pagans. Ethiopian Christians and those who claim descent from the original Jewish tribes (mang of whom were relocated to Israel in Operation Moses many years ago) have a substantial presence in that region. There are practicing Muslims in North and South America, Western and Eastern Europe (including the Newly Independent States of the former Soviet Union) although they certainly are not the majority.

Fifi le Beau
December 14, 2004 - 01:03 pm
Mahlia, my thoughts were in relation to the 8th century and the events we had been reading in Durant. The muslim invasion of foreign countries for empire brought with it an intolerance of religious beliefs other than their own. First came the restrictions, then the dispora, and then the murders.

Most of those areas we were reading about are today marked 100% muslim on the world census that was put here as a link recently. You were right to question my post as I did not make clear the time period I was writing about.

It's hard to stay in the 8th century (even with Robby's proding) without remembering events that happened in the later centuries especially the 20th that are relevant to past events.

As soon as I read about Harun in the 8th century, I immediately jumped to the 21st century and current day Bagdad. Before the war in Iraq began in 2003 I went searching for a voice from that country that was not censored. I found Salam Pax writing from Bagdad and he carried us along as Bagdad was invaded and occupied. The fact that he was reared muslim, but is gay and atheist and loves the poetry of Abu Nuwas was enough for me to compare him to 8th century Harun the first (for all we know) gay caliph.

I made a leap of 13 centuries in that last paragraph, but maybe Robby will forgive me. I would not want to have lived in the middle, near, or far east in the 8th century.

Fifi

Persian
December 14, 2004 - 03:14 pm
Thanks for your clarification, FIFI. One of the great freedoms of this discussion is that indeed we can slide from the ancient period to the contemporary time and often the comparisons are NOT so different. That is one of the advantages of studying such a complex topic from a comparative standpoint AND through the varied perceptions of the posters from our diverse backgrounds and beliefs.

Years ago, I developed a series of lectures on women in the Middle East around the tale of Shahrazad. I recall some VERY lively discussions among my female students, focusing primarily on whether they could have been as clever given the same circumstances.

JoanK
December 14, 2004 - 05:05 pm
MAL: thanks for the link to the 1001 Nights. Richard Burton really loved Arabia. From his introduction:

"From my dull and commonplace and "respectable" surroundings, the Jinn bore me at once to the land of my predilection, Arabia, a region so familiar to my mind that even at first sight, it seemed a reminiscence of some by gone metempsychic life in the distant Past. Again I stood under the diaphanous skies, in air glorious as aether, whose every breath raises men's spirits like sparkling wine. Once more I saw the evening star hanging like a solitaire from the pure front of the western firmament; and the after glow transfiguring and transforming, as by magic, the homely and rugged features of the scene into a fairy land lit with a light which never shines on other soils or seas. Then would appear the woollen tents, low and black, of the true Badawin, mere dots in the boundless waste of lion tawny clays and gazelle brown gravels, and the camp fire dotting like a glow worm the village centre.

robert b. iadeluca
December 14, 2004 - 05:31 pm
"We do not know the precise causes that so suddenly ended the Barmakids' power. Ibn Khaldun saw the 'true cause' in 'their assumption of all authority, their jealous disposition of the public revenue, to such degree that al-Rashid was sometimes reduced to asking for a trivial sum without being able to obtain it.'

"As the young ruler grew into middle age, and found no complete expression of his abilities in the pursuit of sensual pleasure and intellectual discourse, he may have regretted the omnipotence with which he dowered his vizier. When he ordered Jafar to have a rebel executed, Jafar connived at the man's escape. Harun never forgave this amiable negligence.

"A story worthy of the Thousand and One Nights tells how Abbasa, Harun's sister, tell in love with Jafar. Now Harun had vowed to keep the Hashimite blood of his sisters as pure as might be of any but high Arabian fluid, and Jafar was Persian. The Caliph permitted them to marry but on their promise never to meet except in his presence.

"The lovers soon broke this agreement. Abbasa secretly bore Jafar two sons, who were concealed and reared in Medina. Zobaida, Harun's wife, discovered the situation and revealed it to Harun.

"The Caliph sent for his chief executioner, Mesrur, bade him kill Abbasa and bury her in the palace, and supervised in person the performance of these commands.

"Then he ordered Mesrur to behead Jafar and bring him the severed head, which was duly done. Then he sent to Medina for the children, talked long with the handsome boys, admired them, and had them killed (803).

"Yahya and al-Fadl were imprisoned. They were allowed to keep their families and servants, but were never released. Yahya died two years after his son, al-Fadl five years after his brother.

"All the property of the Barmakid faily, reputedly amonting to 30,000,000 dinars ($142,500,000), was conafiscated."

It's bad enough reading about all the beheadings and other methods of killing, but I have never understood a person's ability to calmly kill his sister, her husband, his nephews, and various family members here and there. Where was love in all this? Was it purely sex and power?

Robby

Justin
December 14, 2004 - 05:41 pm
The Abbasid dynasty exhibited characteristics similar to those of first century Roman rulers. It was also a model for the Papacy in a later century. We see in this dynasty a blend of political power and religious power so exercised as to give the ruler absolute authority.

The Romans achieved that position through military power and then added a state religion to the mix. The Abbasid dynasty began with a religion (Islam) and added political power. The result, however, was the same- a blend of religion and politics enabling the ruler to express absolute power.

This method for gaining power is still useful. We see it operating in the US with great effectiveness. Our recent election is one expression of the method. The result is similar to that of the Abbasid and Roman power structures. It is a blend of political and religious power. The ruler is able to exert his will and essentially do as he pleases(He has political capital to expend). When he wants revenge he sends his army to attack. He brooks no opposing views. One agrees or one is punished. One may think Congress and the Courts will block this ruler but they are power bases that are part and parcel of this ruler.

Traude S
December 14, 2004 - 06:03 pm
About gay and gaiety. Can it be possible that at the time Durant wrote this particular volume, the adjective "gay" had (already ???) assumed today's very specific meaning?

"gay" meant merry, among other definitions listed in every dictionary. My Random House allows that it is "slang for homosexual".

But is it really conceivable that Durant, the master wordsmith whom I can clearly see polishing each and every word, could have used "gay" in the prevalent modern definition, slang in other words? I believe that to be highly improbable - Durant's using slang, I mean.

But even if Harun had been the "first gay caliph", would that make any difference, and why?

Incidentally, the word gay has the same literal, innocent, harmless meaning in French: = gai; joyeux; éclatant. My French-speaking mother taught me a little ditty, which I passed on to my daughter who was as delighted as I was then.

ÉLOÏSE, would you comment, please ?

3kings
December 14, 2004 - 07:38 pm
TRAUDE S. Durant wrote :- "picture Harun as a gay and cultured monarch" There seems no evidence that he was using 'gay' in the post 1960's way meaning homosexual. ++ Trevor

Justin
December 14, 2004 - 08:06 pm
Traude: When I came to the Caliph's love affair with Jafar I just assumed he had bisexual tendencies and did not connect the reference to the earlier comment about "Gay and Gaiety". I wonder how long "gay" has been slang for homosexuality. The Durants have not hesitated in the past to discuss homosexuality, particularly in the Greek world. Webster Three says "gay" means homosexual. It is not listed as slang. You raise an interesting topic.

Fifi le Beau
December 14, 2004 - 09:36 pm
Traude asks........

But even if Harun had been the "first gay caliph", would that make any difference, and why?

It would certainly make no difference to me. I use the term 'gay' because that is the word prefered by homosexuals. I know Robby doesn't want us to skip ahead but a few pages from where we are now Durant discusses homosexuality during this period. It was prevalent at Harun's court, and probably contributed to the adulation that historians gave his era for the arts.

Durant says, "The Moslem male, separated from women before marriage by purdah, and surfeited with them after marriage by the harem, fell into irregular relations."

The problem with 'irregular relations' is that in Mohammedan law both fornication and pederasty were to be punished by death. The Caliph Suleiman ordered the mukhannath of Mecca castrated. Caliph al-Hadi came upon two lovers and had them beheaded on the spot. The Islamic religion forbids homosexuality upon the pain of death.

As to the 'why' in your question, the answer seems obvious, "It's against their law."

Fifi

Traude S
December 14, 2004 - 09:42 pm
Thank you, TREVOR and JUSTIN.

I was referring to ROBBY's post # 152 in which he quoted Durant on Harun "... Legends, above all, The Thousand and One Nights, picture Harun as a gay and cultured monarch ...All these qualities appear in history except the gaiety, which perhaps offended the historians. ..."

And I'm quite sure I saw a subsequent post or two relating to the gay aspect; one of them referred to Harun as "possibly the first gay caliph". Hence my earlier post. However, I can't seem to find that in the record now. My apologies if I misread anything.

Traude S
December 14, 2004 - 09:49 pm
ÉLOÏSE, regarding fromage de tête à l'ancienne : one of our supermarket chains in the next town has it in its deli department; they call it head cheese. It is delicious and I go out of my way to get it.

Justin
December 14, 2004 - 10:47 pm
The ability, calmly, to kill close and trusted friends as well as immediate family, has something to do with the culture. A ruler who has experienced absolute power feeds on loyalty. Any breach in loyalty is a threat to the ruler's power. Jafar broke a trust by coniving to release a prisoner. Harun felt threatened by his own son whom he dearly loved but could no longer trust to act in his best interests. In addition, Jafar was a threat to the authority of the the throne, to the power of the Caliphate. The question is one of duty to the Caliphate as an institution vrs.family interests.Jafar would be a threat even in exile. I think the root issue here is about fear in the lonliest job in the world.

The same question might well be asked about Livia, Tiberious' mother and about the mother of Nero. I found it over and over again in the movie about Alexander. His mother was suspected of killing her husband to put her son on the throne.

3kings
December 15, 2004 - 12:58 am
JUSTIN it is interesting, just when 'gay' came to mean homosexual. It was not used as such during the early 1940's when you were stationed in NZ.

In those years two female relatives of mine where christened Gay, and I'm sure they would not have been had there been any hint of homosexuality about the name.

My Oxford dict. published 1952 gives a slang term 'gay' as meaning a prostitute, or woman of immoral character. I have never heard gay used in such a way, have you ? After the so called sexual revolution of the 1960's was when I first heard the term used as meaning homosexual. ++ Trevor

Éloïse De Pelteau
December 15, 2004 - 02:16 am
Traude, yes, the word 'gay' defining homosexuality only came out after WW11 in the US, but French people still used 'gai' to define cheerfulness. Now though, we only see it to define homosexuality. Durant would have used the term homosexual if it was the case as his writing never leaves room for ambiguity and I don't remember him ever using it in the past three volumes of Story of Civilization. Are homosexuals gayer than heterosexuals I used to wonder? The term is more widely used in America than in France, I think, when 'gai' still means joyful, cheerful.

Language has always been in movement and it is apt to grow and change, especially in America where creativity is encouraged and when the term homosexual was a little too explicit, 'gay' was substituted perhaps.

robert b. iadeluca
December 15, 2004 - 03:16 am
"Harun himself did not long survive. For a while he dulled his sorrow and remorse with work and welcomed even the toils of war. When Nicephorus I, Byzantine Emperor, refused to continue the payments pledged by Irene, and boldly demanded the return of the tribute already paid, Harun replied:-'In the name of Allah, the Merciful, the Compassionate. From Harun, Commander of the Faithful, to Necephorus, dog of a Roman. I have your letter. O son of an infidel mother. The answer shall be for your eyes to see, not for your ears to hear. Salaam.'

"He took the field at once and from his new and strategic residence at Raqqa, on the northern frontier, he led into Asia Minor such impetuous expeditions that Necephorus soon agreed to resume the tribute (806).

"To Charlemagne -- a useful foil to Byzantium -- he sent an embassy bearing many presents, including a complicated water clock and an elephant.

"Though Harun was now only forty-two, his sons al-Emin and al-Mamun were already competing for the succession and looking forwad to his death. Hoping to mitigate their strife, Harun arranged that al-Mamun should inherit the provinces east of the Tigris, al-Emin the rest, and that on the death of either brother the survivor should rule the whole.

"The brothers signed this compact and swore to it before the Kaaba. In that same year 806 a serious rebellion broke out in Khurasan. Harun set out with al-Emin and al-Mamun to suppress it, although he was suffering from severe abdominal pains.

"At Tus in eastern Iran he could no longer stand. He was in his last agony when Bashin, a rebel leader, was brought before hm. Made almost insane by pain and grief, Harun upbraided the captive for causing him to undertake this fatal expedition, ordered Bashin to be cut to pieces limb by limb, and watched the execution of the sentence.

"On the following day Harun the Upright died (809), aged forty-five."

I find of interest the diplomatic letters between leaders in those days. Sort of like smiling at you and hitting you on the head with a stick at the same time. But, come to think of it, is it any different now?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 15, 2004 - 03:45 am
As we conclude the section about HARUN AL-RASHID, here is an excellent article to help us summarize and see his entire life. It contains many interesting side links.

Robby

Traude S
December 15, 2004 - 08:04 am
ROBBY, I find it interesting that they were writing at all (!), given the fact that Europe was woefully behind in that respct at that time.

robert b. iadeluca
December 15, 2004 - 09:00 am
My computer guru has just left and hopefully all the gremlins have been cleaned out of my hard disk.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
December 15, 2004 - 09:33 am
Good, ROBBY, I'm glad to hear it because I'm heading way south for the rest of the winter and won't be available. (Don't I wish!) The heater in this apartment quit last night, and it was 26 degrees here in my part of North Carolina this morning.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
December 15, 2004 - 09:49 am
My computer guru has just left and hopefully all the gremlins have been cleaned out of my hard disk.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 15, 2004 - 09:59 am
What is the difference between the use of poison NOW and in Medieval times?

Robby

Bubble
December 15, 2004 - 10:27 am
Today there are more tests to analyse if there is poisonning, so I suppose it would be harder to deny it?

Did they not test recently some remains of Napoleon and decided that he had been poisoned too?

Anyone remembers if there is any mention of poison in the Bible?

Shasta Sills
December 15, 2004 - 03:42 pm
What has happened? My print has become so small that I cannot read it. Somebody tell me how to put it back the way it was before.

Malryn (Mal)
December 15, 2004 - 04:13 pm
Shasta, go to the top right corner of this page to FONT OPTIONS. When you click it, it will take you to a place where you can choose the type and size font you want.

Mal

Shasta Sills
December 15, 2004 - 05:33 pm
Thanks, Mal. I did that and it is better, but still not as large as it was before. Why change something that was working fine?

robert b. iadeluca
December 15, 2004 - 05:37 pm
I don't like it either, Shasta, but long ago I found that I can't fight City Hall. Bit by bit we'll get used to it.

Robby

JoanK
December 15, 2004 - 05:44 pm
There is also a place to change options at the bottom of the page. I tried about six before I got one that is tolerable. Is everyone suddenly posting in bold, or is that part of the new scheme?

robert b. iadeluca
December 15, 2004 - 06:14 pm
You may have noticed that I have posted in bold for months, if not for years. I have found that it helps those whose eyesight is not too good.

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
December 15, 2004 - 06:28 pm
I will try "Font Options" Mal, but I tried the one at the bottom of this page where it says "Change Font", I left the font on "Ariel" but changed the Font Size to 18 px and hit the set button. Now it is even better than it was before the makeover. At least the font in the message box is a little larger, even if it is still not dark enough for my taste.

Joan, I see everything bolder too, and I like it.

I am still listening to Scheherazade by Rimski Korsakov.

Éloïse

monasqc
December 15, 2004 - 06:43 pm
Robert post: What is the difference between the use of poison now and in the medieval time?

It is still the most barbaric thing to do.

Françoise

Fifi le Beau
December 15, 2004 - 06:58 pm
Baghdad was founded in 762AD in the heartland of old Sumer. Until that time the area was flat farmland laced with canals. It had not been in existence very long when Harun ruled as Caliph. Here is a short essay on its founding and growth.

Baghdad time capsule

Fifi

Traude S
December 15, 2004 - 10:02 pm
Among the discrepancies of the new format : the TYPE is minuscule; the POSTS are large(even larger than before, including the heading) and veer way beyond the margin onthe right; there are huge white gaps between headings and subsequent paragraphs, but I hope that SOME of these things will be straightened out in due corse. So far, they hinder free discourse here.

Malryn (Mal)
December 15, 2004 - 10:17 pm
TRAUDE and anyone else who is having problems with the new format, click the link below to go to the PROBLEMS DISCUSSION.

PROBLEMS
Goodnight, everybody.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
December 16, 2004 - 04:30 am
Francoise:-

You have been with us before and are back in our family again. Welcome!

I have the greatest admiration for those people in Senior Net who have computer technical experience. The beautiful Heading we have had for years was created by Marjorie. I had nothing to do with it. At the moment the Heading is having picture and spacing problems but will be back with us in no time. Let us please be patient as they iron out the wrinkles. It will all smooth out and, in the meantime, we will examine the problems that existed in the newly formed Islamic Empire.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 16, 2004 - 04:33 am
The Decline of the Abbasids

robert b. iadeluca
December 16, 2004 - 04:50 am
"Al-Mamun continued to Merv and came to an agreement with the rebels. Al-Emin returned to Baghdad, named his infant son heir to his power, demanded of al-Mamun three eastern provinces, was denied them, and declared war.

"Al-Mamun's general Tahir defeated the armies of al-Emin, besieged and almost destroyed Baghdad, and sent al-Emin's severed head to al-Mamun after a now inviolable custome. Al-Mamun, still remaining in Merv, had himself proclaimed Caliph (813).

"Syria and Arabia continued to resist him as the son of a Persian slave and it was not until 818 that he entered Baghdad as the acknowledged ruler of Islam.

"Abdallah al-Mamun ranks with al-Mansur and al-Rashid as one of the great caliphs of the Abbasid line. Though capable at times of the fury and cruelty that had disgraced Harun, he was usually a man of mild and lenient temper. In his state council he included representatives of all the major faiths in his realm -- Mohammedan, Christian, Jewish, Sabian, Zoroastrian -- and guaranteed, until his latest years, full freedom of worship and belief.

"For a time free thought was de rigueur at the Caliph's court. Masudi describes one of al-Mamun's intellectual afternoons:-

'Al-Mamun used to hold a salon every Tuesday for the discussion of questions in theology and law. The learned men of diverse sects were shown into a chamber spread with carpets. Tables were brought in laden with food and drink. When the repast was finished, servants fetched braziers of incense, and the guests perfumed themselves. Then they were admitted to the Caliph. He would debate with them in a manner as fair and impartial, and as unlike the haughtiness of a monarch, as can be imagined. At sunset a second meal was served and the guests departed to their homes.

"Under al-Mamun the royal support of arts, sciences, letters, and philosophy became more varied and discriminating than under Harun and left a far more significant result. He sent to Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and elsewhere for the writings of the Greek masters and paid a corps of translators to render the books into Arabic.

"He established an academy of science at Baghdad and observatories there and at Tadmor, the ancient Palmyra. Physicians, jurists, musicians, poets, mathematicians, astronomers enjoyed the bounty and he himself, like some nineteenth-century Mikado, and like every Moslem gentleman, wrote poetry."

Democracy in Islam?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
December 16, 2004 - 05:56 am
The New York Times this morning has an article about the serious, stress-caused mental health problems of thousands of soldiers returning from Iraq. Did the soldiers of history, like the Arabian soldiers who did all the fighting we're reading about, suffer from "symptoms of major depression, serious anxiety or post-traumatic stress disorder" the way our soldiers are?

I remember playing the piano and singing for patients in VA hospitals when I was working as a musician in the '50's. It was a sobering experience. I expected missing limbs, other physical injuries, but I did not expect what I saw -- young men not much older than I was who were mentally injured, some permanently, because of what they'd experienced in the Korean War.

ROBBY asked about love the other day, love of family that disappeared when people did something wrong and turned into orders about beheadings. Do people in the Middle East have considerably less respect for life than those of us in the west do? I find that hard to believe. Parents are parents, aren't they? They love their children, don't they? What is this difference I perceive?

Mal

Bubble
December 16, 2004 - 06:51 am
I think that in the Middle East there is a facet less prominent in the West: the honor of the family, the saving of face in the clan. Love is forgotten when thinking there was a loss of honor. That is why young girls can be murdered (with the tribe's blessing) by their brothers if said brother "think" they allowed an unwanted suitor to approach them.

It is another perspective, other priorities. Same as when mothers rejoice when/if their sons lose their life as suicide bombers because it adds prestige to the family.

Scrawler
December 16, 2004 - 12:29 pm
When my husband came home from Vietnam his physical wounds adventually healed, but his mental wounds never did. He was an artist and his distress showed in his paintings and especially through his relationships with others.

I think the biggest difference between ancient soldiers and the more recent ones is that ancient soldiers were surrounded by those they grew up with or came from the same village etc. When someone died they had time to morn them, but in our time the our soldiers didn't have that. It was like they had been on duty 24 hours a day with no let up.

Justin
December 16, 2004 - 05:53 pm
Can it be possible that ME mothers approve of a son's suicide to add to the honor of the family? The practice may be likened to Spartan moms who told their sons to return from battle with their shield or on it.

Maybe this expression of maternal love can be understood in terms of a ME mother's relation to her son. She is subservient to him and dependent upon him for livlihood. He can sell her into slavery if her husband is dead. She might fear the power of an incomming wife. None of this bodes well for a loving relationship between mother and son.

Justin
December 16, 2004 - 05:54 pm
Robby: There is no evident wat to edit or even to post. What is going on?

robert b. iadeluca
December 16, 2004 - 06:24 pm
Justin:-I don't understand your post as you are evidently posting. As to other problems -- the heading etc. -- be patient. They are working on it as fast as they can.

Robby

monasqc
December 16, 2004 - 07:00 pm
Thank you Robert! You know I am a great fan of this discussion.

Françoise

robert b. iadeluca
December 16, 2004 - 08:43 pm
"Al-Mamun died too young -- at forty eight (833) -- and yet too late. For in a fever of authoritarian liberalism he disgracd his final years by presecuting orthodox belief. His brother and successor, Abu Ishaq al-Mutassim, shared his good will but not his genius.

"He surrounded himself with a bodyguard of 4000 Turkish soldiers, as roman emperors had leaned on a Praetorian Guard. In Baghdad, as in Rome, the guard became in time and effect the king. The people of the capital complained that al-Mutassim's Turks rode recklessly through the streets and committed unpunished crimes.

"Fearing popular revolt,the Caliph left Baghdad and built himself a royal residence some thirty miles north at Samarra. From 836 to 892 eight caliphs made it their home and sepulcher. For twenty miles along the Tigris they reared great palaces and mosques and their officials built luxurious mansions with murals, fountains, gardens and bath.

"The Caliph al-Mutawakkil affirmed his piety by spending 700,000 dinars ($3,325,000) on a vast congregational mosque and only a trifle less on a new royal residence, the Jafariya, with a palace called the 'Pearl,' and a 'Hall of Delight,' all sourrounded with parks and streams.

"To find money for these structures and their trappings al-Mutawakkil raised taxes and sold public offices to the highest bidders. To appease Allah he defended orthodoxy with persecution. His son persuaded his Turkish guards to kill him and took the throne as al-Muntasir -- 'he who triumphs in the Lord.'"

The actions in praise of Allah continue.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 16, 2004 - 08:49 pm
Here is further information about SAMARRA, the city north of Baghdad where royal palaces were built. Please note that this city is located in what is now called the Sunni Triangle.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 16, 2004 - 08:57 pm
Here is a MAP of Iraq indicating the location of Samarra on the Tigris River.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 16, 2004 - 09:09 pm
Here are MANY MANY MANY PHOTOS of ancient structures in MANY cities in Iraq including Samarra, Baghdad, Mosul, Tikrit and other names in the news these days. Some of these are being destroyed by the American military forces.

Take plenty of time to enjoy their beauty. Click onto the photos to enlarge them and allow time for downloading.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 16, 2004 - 09:48 pm
Even as Durant immerses us in the Islamic scene, the Roman Catholic Church continues. Durant will bring us back to the Christians later but, in the meantime, here are some recent facts about the JESUITS and what is happening to them.

Robby

Justin
December 16, 2004 - 11:05 pm
The damage we and the Germans did in WW1 and WW11 to monuments in Europe is appalling and shameful. You undoubtedly remember the complete destruction of Monte Cassino but in addition numerous Medieval cathedrals were completely wiped out. Now we are at it again. Few monuments will be left in the world if we continue at the current rate of destruction. Looting, of course, also plays a part.In the case of Iraq, we allowed looters to destroy a heritage that is ancient and precious.

JoanK
December 17, 2004 - 12:54 am
The pictures are fascinating. Many of the buildings seem to be made of similiar material. Does anyone know what it is?

3kings
December 17, 2004 - 03:15 am
Bubble. You are concerned at Palestinian mothers expressing pride when a son gives his life as a suicide bomber. I too have an uneasy feeling about that.

I remember a relative of mine, a kindly and caring woman, expressing sorrow but also great pride when her eldest son lost his life in one of the 1000 bomber raids on German cities in ww2.

I suppose she felt gratitude for his sacrifice to help our side defeat the Germans. Palestinian mothers, I expect, are giving voice to the same feelings of pride when their sons "Lay down their lives for the Arab cause."

Like you, I'm not sure I understand such emotions, but they seem common among all races on this war weary globe. ++ Trevor

robert b. iadeluca
December 17, 2004 - 05:27 am
"Internal factors corrupted the caliphate before external force reduced it to subservience. Overindulgence in liquor, lechery, luxury, and sloth watered down the royal blood and begot a succession of weaklings who fled from the tasks of government to the exhausting delights of the harem.

"The growth of wealth and ease, of concubinage and pederasty, had like effects among the ruling class, and relaxed the martial qualities of the people. There could not come from such indiscipline the strong hand needed to hold together so scattered and divese a conglomeration of provinces and tribes.

"Racial and territorial antipathies festered into repeated revolt. Arabs, Persians, Syrians, Berbers, Christians, Jews, and Turks agreed only in depising one another. The faith that had once forged unity split into sects that expressed and intensified political or geographic divisions.

"The Near East lives or dies by irrigation. The canals that nourished the soil needed perpetual protection and care which no individual or family could provide. When governmental maintenance of the canal system became incompetent or negligent, the food supply lagged behind the birth rate and starvation had to restore the balance between these basic factors in history.

"But the impoverishment of the people by famine or epidemic seldom stayed the hand of the tax gatherer. Peasant, criftsman, and merchant saw their gains absorbed into the expenses and frills of government and lost the incentive to production, expansion, or enterprise.

"At last the economy could not support the government. Revenues fell, soldiers could not be adequately paid or controlled. Turks took the place of Arabs in the armed forces of the state as Germans had replaced Romans in the armies of Rome. From al-Muntasir onward it was Turkish captains that made and unmade, commanded and murdered, the caliphs.

"A succession of sordid and bloody palace intrigues made the later vicissitudes of the Baghdad caliphate unworthy of remembrance by history."

Perhaps it is better that all citizens of a nation be one religion under the guidance of the state in order to strengthen unity. Perhaps it is better to seal national borders to prevent constant strife among people of varying national origins. Maybe poverty is better than wealth and should be allowed, if not encouraged, because wealth leads to overindulgence.

Too much touchy-feely behavior leads to the death of a civilization?

Robby

Traude S
December 17, 2004 - 06:29 am
ROBBY, "... liquor, pederasty", but weren't they specifically forbidden according to the Koran?

JUSTIN, we are all encountering a few wrinkles in the new system here. My problem is a text that wanders to the right BEYOND the margin. No doubt it will be corrected in time.

You seem to be able to post since we saw your message. As for editing, I handle mine as I always did.

Bubble
December 17, 2004 - 06:33 am
Traude, look at the top of any page and click on "fit window" this makes the text the size of your window, even if it is minimized.

Robby, what happens if one uses the laptop on breasts while lying down? **grin**

robert b. iadeluca
December 17, 2004 - 06:42 am
Bubble:-You are much too fast!! That was something I copied from the newspaper and intended to send to someone else. By mistake, I posted it on Senior Net, saw what I did, and deleted it. But apparently not too fast to escape your eye!

Traude:-Do all Christians and Jews refrain from what the Bible forbids?

This ARTICLE from this morning's NY Times addresses what happens when one culture mixes or collides with another.

Robby

Traude S
December 17, 2004 - 07:25 am
BUBBLE, thank you. I have since been able to successfully restrain my wandering text and all is in good order. Your help is appreciated.

Éloïse De Pelteau
December 17, 2004 - 07:45 am
"The Near East lives or dies by irrigation."

How interesting this is. Is it not a fact though? That is exactly what permitted Babylon to become the most extraordinary city of its time, that is what made Egypt of the Pharaohs so grandiose and that is what made Israel rise out of the desert. All those perhaps in different centuries, but still water builds empires and when it is in its peak of splendor, fire or war destroys it, opposites attract each other only for destroying each other in the end.

robert b. iadeluca
December 17, 2004 - 05:39 pm
"The weakening of political diligence and military power at the center invited the dismemberment of the realm. Governors ruled the provinces with only formal reference to the capital. They schemed to make their position permanent, at last hereditary.

"Spain had declared itself independent in 756, Morocco in 788, Tunis in 801, Egypt in 868. Nine years later the Egyptian emirs seized Syria and ruled most of it until 1076.

"Al-Mamun had rewarded his general Tahir by assigning to him and his descendants the governorship of Khurasan. This Tahirid dynasty (820-72) ruled most of Persia in semisovereignty until replaced by the Saffarids (872-903).

"In 929-44 a tribe of Shia Moslems, the Hamdanids, captured northern Mesopotamia and Syria, and dignified their power by making Mosul and Aleppo brilliant centers of cultural life. So Sayfu'l-Dawla (944-67), himself a poet, made places at his Aleppo court for the philosopher al-Farabi and the most popular of Arab poets, al-Mutanabbi.

"The Buwayhids, sons of the Caspian highland chiertain Buwayh, captuyred Isfahan and Shiraz, and finally Baghdad (945).

"For over a century they forced the caliphs to do their bidding. The Commander of the Faithful became little more than the head of orthodox Islam, while the Buwayhid emir, a Shi'ite, assumed direction of the diminishing state.

"Adud al-Dawla, the greatest of these Buwayhids (949-83), made his capital, Shiraz, one of the fairest cities of Islam, but spent generously also on the other cities of his realm.

"Under him and his successors, Baghdad recaptured some of the glory that it had known under Harun."

Your comments, please?

Robby

Ann Alden
December 17, 2004 - 09:10 pm
For anyone who is interested, the new PBS program discussion is about the Mormon Tabernacle Choir and can be found here: Christmas with the Mormon Tabernacle Choir

Malryn (Mal)
December 17, 2004 - 10:03 pm
Article and pictures of Shiraz

More pictures of Shiraz

Justin
December 17, 2004 - 11:41 pm
Shiraz appears to be a city with many beautiful buildings. I am impressed by the use of color in facades and entablatures. Stone relief work depicting the ancient Persian kings is lightly done and very lovely. Excellent craftmanship.



Mahlia: I was reading a University of Cal catalogue this afternoon and came across a Philosphy dept. course in comparative religion. The description listed Buddism, Taoism and Hinduism as eastern religions and Judaism, Islam, and Christianity as western tradition religions. I realize the latter three are Abrahamic in tradition and since Abe is an eastern personality I am confused. Can you explain?

robert b. iadeluca
December 18, 2004 - 05:15 am
Thanks, Mal, for all those links to the magnificent photos of Shiraz, the city which Durant says was made beautiful by Adud al-Dawla in the period between 949 and 983.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 18, 2004 - 05:41 am
"In 874 the descendants of Saman, a Zoroastrian noble, founded a Samanid dynasty that ruled Transoxiana and Khurasan until 999. We are not wont to think of Transoxiana as important in the history of science and philosophy. Yet under the Samanid kings, Bokhara and Samarkand rivaled Baghdad as centers of learning and art. There the Persian language was revived and became the vehicle of a great literature.

"A Samanid court gave protection, and the use of a rich library, to Avicenna, the greatest of medieval philosophers. Al-Razi, greatest of medieval physicians, dedicated the al-Mansuri, his immense summary of medicine, to a Samanid prince.

"In 990 the Turks captured Bokhara and in 999 they put an end to the Samanid dynasty.

"As the Byzantines for three centuries had fought to contain the Arab expansion, so now the Moslems fought to check the westward movement of the Turks. So, later, the Turks would struggle to stay the Mongol flood.

"Periodically the pressure of a growing population upon the means of subsistence generates the mass migrations that overshadow the other events of history.

"In 962 a band of Turkish adventurers from Turkestan invaded Afghanistan under the lead of Alptigin, a former slave, captured Ghazni, and established there a Ghaznevid dynasty.

"Subukrigin (976-97), first slave, then son-in-law, then successor, of Alprigin, extended his rule over Peshawar and part of Khurasan. His son Mahmud (998-1030) took all Persia from the Gulf to the Oxus, and in seventeen ruthless campaigns added the Punjab to his empire, and much of India's wealth to his coffers. Surfeited with plunder, and fretting over the unemployment caused by demobilization, he spent part of his riches, and some of his men, in building the congregational mosque of Ghazni.

"Says a Moslem historian:-

'It had an immense nave, in which 6000 servants of God might fulfill their duties without inconvenience to one another. And he raised near it a college and supplied it with a library and rare volumes. And to those pure walls came students, professors, and divines and from the endowments of the college they received their daily sustenance, and all necessaries, and a yearly or monthly salary.'"

So much contained in this brief section by Durant! A dynasty formed by a Zoroastrian. Our introduction to Transoxiana.

The revival of the Persian language in Bokhara and Samarkand. Our introduction to the medieval philosopher, Avicenna, and the medieval physician, Al-Razi.

The westward movement of the Turks against the Moslems. A mass migration due to a lack of food. The invasion of Afghanistan by Turkestan.

The capture of most of Persia. The capture of the Punjab in India.

Perhaps we should pause to breathe a bit and absorb just what was happening in this historical era.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
December 18, 2004 - 06:22 am
Picture: Ghazni mosque

robert b. iadeluca
December 18, 2004 - 07:05 am
Here is the DILEMMA these days as the Christians in the European Union face the Moslems in Turkey.

Robby

Persian
December 18, 2004 - 08:30 am
JUSTIN - there is often confusion among the use of Eastern, Middle East (the region which the Librry of Congress refers to as the Near East), Far East, Asia, Central Asia (Afghanistan, Pakistan), and South Asia (India, Bangladesh). I certainly do not think of Judaism, Christianity and Islam as being Western religions, although as we know there are millions of adherents of the three faiths in the West (Western Europe, North and South America). Sounds like UC needs to do a bit of editing in their catalogue.

The Persian cities in the links are central to Persian lore, especially in poetry and respect for the poets who created the magnificent works. And the Persians' love affairs with their gardens remains a major focus of Persian culture even today as politics tends to overshadow other areas of life.

robert b. iadeluca
December 18, 2004 - 08:33 am
Mahlia:-If Judaism and Christianity are not Western religions, could you give us an idea of a religion which you would call "Western?"

Robby

Traude S
December 18, 2004 - 08:51 am
ROBBY, thank you for the article. It is a huge dilemma.

Things have not gone smoothly in Brussels and inside the EU member countries. One of the stumbling blocks was the fact that in Turkey adultery is a crime. The other is, of course, the divided island of Cyprus. Neither the Greeks nor the Turks have given an inch over the years.

Moreover, the thousands upon thousands of Moslems already living in the various European countries have not assimilated but retain their separateness deliberately and persistently. There are ongoing tensions in France, of which we hear little, and even in staid, laid-back Switzerland.

Holland is one of the most liberal countries in the European Union, where the use of marihuana is legal, and assisted suicide condoned. The Moslems remain an angry, combative group, and follow their age-old traditions, especially regarding the treatment of their young women.

The recent murders by Moslems in the Netherlands of public figures who spoke out against the mistreatment of women- among other things, upset and outraged the country. Mosque were mutilated in retaliation. Multiculturalism is a ambitious concept. But living together in harmony is not yet a reality.

Bubble
December 18, 2004 - 08:56 am
Bokhara... for me this name has meaning. We have many jews from Bokhara who settled here. They have kept their traditions, their music, and the older generation even kept their colorful dress and headgear for big occasions. They are known to be hard working, very devoted to their family and always ready to party. and they are wonderful cooks!

There is a whole quarter in Jerusalem called the Bokharan quarter where you can hear them sing in the houses, and see the old men sitting outside their house on small stools and playing shesh-besh (backgammon) while siping from small cups. They all wear embroidered caps on their heads and are ready to invite whoever shows an interest in their game.

Shasta Sills
December 18, 2004 - 09:21 am
One of the articles on the European Union stated that Turkey was an associate member of the EU for 40 years. I didn't think the European Union went back 40 years. Is that correct?

Persian
December 18, 2004 - 10:08 am
ROBBY - RE your #228 - I tend to think of the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Catholic (Greek and Russian) as Western branches of Christianity, whereas I think of the Chaldean Christians as Middle Eastern, and the Christian Copts as Egyptian. The Christians from Ethiopia whom I've known, speak of themselves as "African Christians from Ethiopia."

I think of several sects within the Abrahamic religions as developing in the West, but the Jewish, Christian and Islamic religions certainly did not. The faith practices of Native Americans (North and South) could be considdred as religions of the indigenous peoples, but they are not what we have been discussing as major religions.

robert b. iadeluca
December 18, 2004 - 11:12 am
Mahlia:-I would say that the faith practices of Native Americans might occasionally be relevant to our ongoing discussion. I think of the sentence in the Heading directly under the GREEN quotes which begins:-"In this Discussion Group . . . " We are talking here about the forward movement of Civilization. For example -- we almost never speak of the Incan or Mayan faiths here and yet I can see where there might be a correlation between their faiths and the Eastern faiths.

Here is a quote from "Examining the Golden Age of Islamic Civilization" by Glen Chancy which came from a link given by someone here. Chancy compares the nomadic Arabs with the nomadic Chinese. Chancy says:--

'Many advanced cultures feared the fierce nomads roaming the vast unchafted steppes and deserts that surrounded them. The Chinese for example, were so threatened by the pastoral peoples living to the north that they built and garrisoned the Great Wall to keep them out.'

Durant might be holding to Europe (at least in this volume) but nothing should stop us from making comparisons in other parts of the world.

Robby

Persian
December 18, 2004 - 01:28 pm
I know I've mentioned James Michener's CARAVANS several times previously, but Glen Chancy's comments (in Robby's post) about the nomadic tribes made me recall the Chapter 14 in CARAVANS which describe the annual migration of thousands of nomadic people from across Central Asia to a central gathering place at the confluence of two rivers.

They came from Northern, Central and Southern Afghanistan; their related tribes came from across the Oxus in Russia - especially the Nuristanis (who were supposee to be of Greek descent) and the Hazaras, who were the descendents of Genghis Khan's troops. The Chinese tribes came from Kashgar and Yarkand. The Persian nomadic tribes of Meshed and Nishapur included the Sakars, the Salors and the numerous tribes of Kizilbash. And, of course, the nomadic Turkomen came from all across the region.

There is much more to Michener's descriptions, but the color, cultural flavor and exotic intermingling of the tribes has enticed me to re-read the book several times. Since my son recently served in Afghanistan, I've kept it alongside the maps on my desk for easy reference.

robert b. iadeluca
December 18, 2004 - 01:42 pm
Chancy goes on to say:-

"The Muslim Arabs like other nomads before them, did not conquer the targeted lands of the near East all at once. Constant raiding parties reduced the villages to poverty and ruin. The overextended military of the civilized nations could not be everywhere at once. Even Rome at the height of its power was barely able to field enough men to protect its vast borders from the constant threat of invasion. In the ancient world, barbarism often trumped civilization and speed often trumped size.'

Now think of what is going on today.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 18, 2004 - 04:07 pm
"To this college and his court Mahmud brought many scientists, including al-Biruni, and many poets, including Firdausi, who reluctantly dedicated to him the greatest of Persian poems. During this generation Mahmud stood near the top of the world in more senses than one.

"But seven years after his death his empire passed into the hands of the Seljuq Turks.

"It would be an error to picture the Turks as barbarians. As it was necessary to modify that term as applied to the German conquerors of Rome, so it must be said that the Turks were already passing out of barbarism when they overran Islam. Moving westward from Lake Baikal, the Turks of north central Asia organized themselves in the sixth century under a khan or chagan.

"Forging iron found in their mountains, they made weapons as hard as their code, which punished not only treason and murder, but adultery and cowardice, with death. The fertility of their women outran the mortality of their wars. By A.D. 1000 a branch of Turks known by the name of their Beg or leader Seljuq dominated Transoxiana as well as Turkestan.

"Mahmud of Ghazni, thinking to halt this rival Turkish power, seized a son of Seljuq, and imprisoned him in India (1029). Undaunted and enraged, the Seljuq Turks under the stern but masterful Tughril Beg took most of Persia, and paved their further advance by sending to the Caliph al-Qaim at Baghdad a deputation announcing their submission to him and Islam.

"The Caliph hoped that these fearless warriors might free him from his Buwayhid overlords. He invited Tughril Beg to come to his aid. Tughril came (1055) and the Buwayhids fled. Al-Qaim married Tughril's niece, and made him 'King of the East and the West' (1058).

"One by one the petty dynasties of Asiatic Islam crumbled before the Seljuqs, and acknowledged again the supremacy of Baghdad. The Seljuq rulers took the title of sultan -- master -- and reduced the caliphs to a merely religious role. But they brought to the government a new vigor and competence, and to Mohammedanism a new fervor of orthodox faith.

"They did not, like the Mongols two centuries later, destroy what they conquered. They rapidly absorbed the higher civilization, unified into a new empire what had been the scattered members of a dying state, and gave it the strength to endure and survive that long duel, between Christianity and Islam, which we know as the Crusades."

The plot thickens.

Robby

Justin
December 18, 2004 - 06:25 pm
The Turks brought the death penalty for adultery with them in 1000 CE when they invaded Islam. The punishment was already popular in Islam so the blend of Turk and Arab simply made the practice a more entrenched one. It is still with us and stands between Turkey and membership in the European Union. If the practice gives way to Union rules and is ended, it will represent a crack in Islamic armor of substantial proportion.

I recently read something of the Egyptian, Abu Zaid, who challenged the idea that the Qu'ran must be read literally as the Word of God. He was charged with apostasy and ordered to divorce his wife. The charge was upheld by the Egyptian High Court.

Here we are in Iraq attempting to bring the Sunni's and Shi'a together in a democratically elected government after three years of disruptive war, when Sharia has ruled for centuries. On the one hand the Shi'a out number the Sunnis by a substantial number (it may be the reverse)and will vote as a block. On the other hand Sharia will rule the legislature and the courts. If that does not happen the clerics will not tolerate a secular administration very long and when the troops go home- this year or this century, the country will revert.

Persian
December 18, 2004 - 08:11 pm
Just playing a bit of Devil's Advocate here. Would it be easier for the Muslim countries to implement full democracy OR for the Islamic clergy to revise their beliefs and merge with democratic principles as practiced in the West.

Certainly Turkey's behavior will be something to watch vis-a-vis membership in the EU. If Attaturk were still alive and leading Turkey today, I wonder how heavily he would lean on the clergy in order for the country to achieve full membership status. He certainly shocked the conservative and orthodox communities when he came to power and abolished so many of the age-old religious and cultural traditions. And if the late Reza Shah of Iran (who emulated Attaturk) were ruling today, would he also pitch a battle against the Islamic forces in Iran in order to bring the country fully into the 21st century.

Justin
December 18, 2004 - 08:29 pm
The discovery of the Yemeni Qu'ranic fragments must have jolted orthodox Islam just as the discovery of the Dead Sea scrolls jolted orthodox Christianity. Photo copies of the fragments are now in the hands of German Islamacists. Reports may have begun to appear from that group of scholars already and I am not aware of them because I do not read the appropriate journals.

However, evidence of deviations from the current Qu'ran is already available. Those scholars are in a tight bind. They must exercise care in the release of reports. One is ever cognizant of the plight of Salmon Rushdie and Abu Said. The Islamic defenders of the faith remind me of the Spanish inquisitors- a scarey bunch at best.

Justin
December 18, 2004 - 08:48 pm
I think the clerics have too much at stake to modify their positions and their followers are too primitive to take action on their own. If it is to be done, it must be done by fiat. Attaturk and the Shah tried but orthodox Islam out lasted them. There is one faint hope for change, as I see it.

During a post war occupation, the opposing sides blend. Both sides change a little. That's the way Islam spread and it could be the way Islam changes.

Traude S
December 18, 2004 - 09:52 pm
Shasta, it was French foreign minister Robert Schuman who conceived the idea of a European union in a speech in 1950. The process was gradual. I never heard of an associate status, but that doesn't mean there was none such. But as far as I know, the significant push from the Turks for acceptance in the EU is relatively new. Greece, after all, is a member. The rivalry between Turkey and Greeces goes way back in history; the enmity continues, especially over the divided Cyprus.

Here is just one link :

userpage.chemie.fu-berlin.de/adressen/eu.htm

Forgive me if this is not clickable. A techie I'll never be.



P.S. I saw the link is not clickable and I am sorry. I gave the link because all the present member nations are listed in alphabetical order. The divided island Cyprus is there, so is Malta, also an island. There is no more Czechoslovakia, artificially "constructed" in the Treaty of Versailles; however, both the Czech Republic and Slovakia are members of the EU.

To get all of the member nations under one umbrella, regarding commerce and trade, the new currency (not yet adopted by all), the euro, not to mention the legal system, took years.

Persian
December 18, 2004 - 10:41 pm
TRAUDE - Hier fehet was! Die angerwahlte URL existiert nicht!

When I typed in the link you mentioned above, this is the response. Perhaps it is a "members only" link?

Bubble
December 19, 2004 - 01:46 am
Justin, Mahlia: a drop at a time and water can dig into stone. So will it be with changes in Islam I think. Is it patience that is needed or just time?

Many Arabs do not consider Turkey an Islamic country. The liberation there from many old age customs seems anathema to "deeply religious" Muslims. Attaturk and the Shah did a lot for modernizing their country. They opened it for integration in the western world. Maybe the other Far East Islamic country are not interested in being part of that world?

robert b. iadeluca
December 19, 2004 - 07:09 am
Some, if not most, of the participants here do not know Theron Boyd and Joan Grimes. They got to know each other a number of years ago by both becoming Senior Netters and eventually they married. Some of us had the privilege of meeting them personally at various Senior Net gatherings. He, I believe, was a retired engineer. He had a sharp mind and a dry wit and sense of humor. She is a retired French teacher and a true Lady with a capital "L". We got used to seeing them together everywhere -- eating together at meal times, walking together at places we visited, etc.

This morning Joan gave us the news that Theron passed away in the hospital last night. He had been having some medical problems recently which included optical and cardiac problems. Then just a few days ago he had a stroke. Joan tells us she believes that his heart just couldn't take the strain of that and gave out. The nurses sent her home because she needed the rest. While she was there, he phoned her to say "good night." According to the nurses, he left us just shortly after that. Joan, in her own word, is "devastated." Those of us who knew him will miss him very much.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
December 19, 2004 - 07:23 am
I had a note from Joan last night in response to an email I had sent to her about Theron's hospitalization. She was trying very hard to be strong about his illness. Now this sad news about Theron's death. I know that we all are sending Joan all the love and strength that we can give her.

Mal

Bubble
December 19, 2004 - 07:30 am
About Joan Grimes and Theron Boyd. I chanced on it about an hour ago.

http://www.seniornet.org/php/default.php?ClassOrgID=5403&PageID=6105

They were a great couple I heard. My heartfelt sympathy goes to you Joan in this hard time. Bubble

Ginny
December 19, 2004 - 07:37 am
Robby asked me to put this notice here also, but I'm sorry to tell you of the sudden and unexpected death of one of our Discussion Leaders in the Books and on SeniorNet, Theron Boyd, yesterday. A lovely man, he was on our Tech Teams here in the Books and attended both the Chicago Book Gathering and the 2003 National Book Festival. We will miss him, very much.

Our sympathy to Joan Grimes joangrimes@charter.net, and his family, so sorry, {{{Joan!!}}

Here are Theron and Joan in Washington DC, we are so sorry, Joan.

Persian
December 19, 2004 - 09:19 am
I'd like to add my condolences to Joan and Theron's families at his passing. When I first joined SeniorNet, Joan was one of the first people to welcome me. Later, she personally placed my China travel pictures in the appropriate site, returning the original photos to me in good order. We shared comments about travel, especially to Joan's beloved France. Although Theron is no longer with us physically, his kindness, creativity and willingness to help throughout the SN community will be long remembered.

Mahlia

robert b. iadeluca
December 19, 2004 - 09:34 am
Theron would want us to continue on so I will do just that.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 19, 2004 - 09:36 am
Armenia

325-1060

robert b. iadeluca
December 19, 2004 - 09:54 am
"In the year 1060 the Seljuq Turks extended their conquests to Armenia.

"That harassed country has felt the claws of rival imperialisms through many centuries because its mountains hindered its unity of defense while its valleys provided tempting roads between Mesopotamia and the Black Sea. Greece and Persia fought for those roads as highways of trade and war. Xenophon's Ten Thousand traversed them -- Rome and Persia fought for them -- Byzantium and Persia, Byzantium and Islam, Russia and Britain.

"Through all vicissitudes of external pressure or domination, Armenia maintained a practical independence, a vigorous commercial and agricultural economy, a cultural autonomy that produced its own creed, literature, and art.

"It was the first nation to adopt Christianity as its state religion (303). It took the Monophysite side in the debate about the natures of Christ, refusing to admit that He had shared the infirmities of human flesh.

"In 491 the Armenian bishops parted from Greek and Roman Christianity and formed an autonomous Armenian Church under its own Katholikos. Armenian literature used the Greek language until the early fifth century when Bishop Mesrob invented a national alphabet and translated the Bible into the Armenian tongue. Since that time Armenia has had an abundant literature, chiefly in religion and history.

"From 642 to 1046 the country was nominally subject to the caliphs but it remained virtually sovereign and zealously Christian.

"In the ninth century the Bagratuni family established a dynasty under the title of 'Prince of Princes,' built a capital at Ani, and gave the country several generations of progress and relative peace.

"Ashot III (952-77) was much loved by his people. He founded many churches, hospitals, convents, and almshouses, and (we are told) never sat down to meals without allowing poor men to join him.

"Under his son Gagik I (990-1020) -- how peculiar our names must seem to the Armenians! -- prosperity reached its height:- schools were numerous, towns were enriched by trade and adorned by art, and Kars rivaled Ani as a center of literature, theology, and philosophy.

"Ani had impressive palaces and a famous cathedral (c.980), subtly compounded of Persian and Byzantine styles. Here were piers and column clusters, pointed as well as round arches, and other features that later entered into Gothic art.

"When, in 989, the cupola of St. Sophia in Constantinople was destroyed by an earthquake, the Byzantine emperor assigned the hazardous task of restoring it to Trdat, the architect of the Ani cathedral."

Durant chose to write this special section about Armenia. We shall surely read more about this nation as we move along.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 19, 2004 - 12:48 pm
I have been much influenced by the article "Examining the 'Golden Age of Civilization'" written by Glen Chancy. This is not to say that I either agree or disagree with his premises but they are most definitely thought-provoking. Prior to entering Durant's next section (see GREEN quotes above), I would like to quote a bit from Chancy. His thoughts in our mind might be a background to what Durant is about to tell us.

He says that Islamic civilization never really had a "golden age." and speaks of what he calls "the debt Islamic civilization owes to Christianity." As we move through the next section of "The Islamic Scene," Chancy might stimulate our thinking.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 19, 2004 - 01:07 pm
Quotes from Chancy:-

"The Moslem triumph was in holding on to the lands they had conquered. Unlike the Mongols, who established an empire that extended from China to Vienna but lost it when Chinese civilization reasserted itself, the Muslims remain to this day. Instead it was the Armenians, Byzantines, Copts, Syrians, and other peoples of the Near East who were swamped by the Arab tide and whose civilizations disappeared from history. In fact, in the historic homelands that they conquered, the Muslim Arabs are now considered indigenous people.

"Muslim longevity succeeded because the Muslim Arabs developed a theological and political system that maintained power over their captives. Islam teaches of continuous warfare, called Jihad. Jihad drives the Moslem practice of assimilation.

"Islam divides the world into two camps -- the dar al-Islam, the lands of peace governed by Islamic Law and the dar al-harb, the lands of war tht are destined to come under Muslim rule. The Muslims are to gain these lands, either by war (harb) or by conversion of the inhabitants. The will of Allah is that all the possessions of non-Muslims should enter into Muslim hands. The holy war was the foundation of Islamic expansion. No other nomadic invader developed such an approach for legitimitizing and perpetuating its rule. War and subjugation had been developed into a comprehensive religious system.

"Commentators often speak of the glorious Islamic empire. Did this wealth have something to do with the greatness of the Islamic Civilization or was the Islamic Empire rich because it pillaged pe-existing civilizations? Scribes, secretaries, treasurers, accountants, craftsmen, peasants, doctors, scholars, diplomats, translators, and politicians -- the Christians formed the base, the texture, the elite, and the sinews of the Muslim empire. The conquered Christians placed all the resources at the service of nomad chiefs. For the first centuries of the Islamic empire, the majority of the population was comprised of highly skilled Christians ruled by a minority of Arab Muslims."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 19, 2004 - 01:29 pm
Chancy continues:-

"The city of Baghdad was built by Christian artisans and architects, often enslaved. The Christian physician Ibn Bakhtishyu founded the great hospital of Baghdad. Jerusalem's Dome of the Rock was designed and built by Byzantine architects. Christian and Jewish scribes translated Sanskrit, Persian, Aramaic, and Greek manuscripts into Arabic. Many of these scholars and artisans converted to Islam in order to work and to ensure their safety. They received their training as Christians or Jews.

"Science and philosophy flourished on Muslim soil during the first half of the middle ages but it was not by reason of Islam. It was in spite of Islam. It is true that the Christian Church also cast great difficulties in the way of science in the Middle Ages but she did not strangle it outright, as did the Muslim theology.

"Not only were the illustrious thinkers persecuted in life, but also their works found little reception among subsequent generations of Muslims. The works of the great Muslim masters were read and studied in Paris, not Baghdad, and the Christian West developed a new order of science from them. From the 14th century to the present, nothing of any note has arisen from the Muslim world in science or philosophy. Historians consider this century to be the approximate and of the period of the 'Islamization' of the Muslim Empire.

"Once the Near Eastern societies completed the process of Islamization, they fell into torpor and decline. When Mehmet II conquered Constantinople, he did not build a glorious new mosque but confiscated the greatest Christian Church -- Hagia Sophia -- and converted it into the royal house of worship. Islam took from its conquered peoples while offering little in return.

"Ostensibly, traditional Islam is a peaceful religion while the militant variety is a modern aberration. If it's true that Islam had been founded as a peaceful religion, then it ought to have remained confined to the Arabian Peninsula. Turkey would still be populated by Greeks, Egypt and Syria would be Christian nations, and the world would be home to many more Armenians. The totalitarian manifestation of fundamentalist Islam has its antecedents in the earlier conquests, particularly the forced Islamization of conquered peoples.

"The all-embracing nature of Islamic law can be seen from the fact that it does not distingish among ritual, law (in the European sense of the word), ethics, and good manners. These duties are fixed in Muslim law and are unchangeable. Those who claim that modernization can come to the Islamic world first need to examine if progress is possible given that the heart of Islam repudiates outright the Western ideas of progress and modernity.

I ask that each of us read this (and possibly print out) and take into consideration as Durant moves us on ahead.

Robby

Bubble
December 19, 2004 - 02:26 pm
Reading these quotes makes me very pessimistic for the future. Unfortunately, it seems to be true. It also predicts that there won't be peace in the world, no matter what the non-Islamic do - short of converting of course.

Malryn (Mal)
December 19, 2004 - 03:28 pm
This is not on the topic, but I think it's interesting. I was surprised this afternoon to receive an email, sent on the www.noor.net ISP, from someone asking me to send hard copies of my magazines because they cannot be bought in Keshavarz Blv, Qom, Iran.

Of course, hard copies of my electronic magazines can't be bought anywhere because they don't exist. The current issue of Sonata contains writing about Thanksgiving, Christmas, Hanukkah, Ramadan and Kwanzaa.

Word travels much farther than we might think.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
December 19, 2004 - 05:09 pm
Just one more quote from Chancy:-

"For Bertrand Russell, traditional Islam was Marxist--like from its beginning. What we see today is not Islam being hijacked by extremists, but Islam maintaining its tradition.

"Unlike Protestants, who have moved away from the literal interpretation of the Bible, Muslims -- all Muslims -- still take the Koran literally. There is no difference between Islam and Islamic fundamentalaism. Islam is deeply rooted in every Muslim society and 'fundamentalism' is simply the excess of this culture. A reformed faith that should question the divine authority on which the institutions of Islam rest, or attempt by rationalistic selection of abatement to effect a change, would be Islam no longer

"The jihad is the very heart of Islam. Terrorism, the pursuit of weapons of mass destruction, even the mass immigration of hostile Muslims to the West are all expressions of traditional Islam. The peaceful, neutered, or secular variants presented to the world as traditional Islam are actually modern inventions."

Glen Chancy graduated from the University of Florida with a degree in Political Science and a certificate in Eastern European Studies. He completed extensive course work on Russia and the Balkan States.

So now let us continue on with Durant, perhaps keeping these three Chancy posts in mind.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 19, 2004 - 05:32 pm
The Islamic Scene

628-1058

robert b. iadeluca
December 19, 2004 - 05:40 pm
"Civilization is a union of soil and soul -- the resources of the earth transformed by the desire and discipline of men.

"Behind the facade, and under the burden, of courts and palaces, temples and schools, letters and luxuries and arts, stands the basic man -- the hunter bringing game from the woods -- the woodsman felling the forest -- the herdsman pasturing and breeding his flock -- the peasant clearing, plowing, sowing, cultivating, reaping, rending the orchard, the vine, the hive, and the brood -- the woman absorbed in the hundred crafts and cares of a functioning home -- the miner digging in the earth -- the builder shaping homes and vehicles and ships -- the artisan fashioning products and tools -- the pedlar, shopkeeper, and merchant uniting and dividing maker and user -- the investor fertilizing industry with his savings -- the executive harnessing muscle, materials, and minds for the creation of services and goods.

"These are the patient yet restless leviathan on whose swaying back civilization precariously rides."

In case we let ourselves become too complicated, Durant brings us back to basics.

Robby

Persian
December 19, 2004 - 06:00 pm
MAL - I'm familiar with Keshavarz Blvd. in Tehran, but didn't realize that there was a street with the same name in Qom. And its interesting that your inquirer is affiliated with NOOR (based in Egypt), considering the strained relations between the two countries. But splendid products like SONATA reach even the furthest regions of the world! Who knows - you may be able to invite a guest from Qom to visit our discussion!

Traude S
December 19, 2004 - 06:49 pm
MAHLIA,

just came in now. Sorry the link didn't work. I tried it in my browser and it worked for me. But Google has lots of other references regarding the European Union well worth considering. It now takes $1.30 to buy one euro, that's a sobering fact.

ROBBY, I hope I find Glen Chancey in Google. Sorry but I never heard of him.

Traude S
December 19, 2004 - 07:00 pm
Glen Chancy wrote about Oliver North, I see, and about relations between the U.S. and Syria. Forgive me for saying so, but he sounds a bit biased to me. What are Chancy's credentials ?

Throughout history there was, I believe, an inevitable cross-fertilization of ideas; I am not convinced (as Chancy seems to be) that Islam is totally "indebted" to Christianity.

Justin
December 19, 2004 - 07:04 pm
Chancey and I are on the same wave length and it bothers me greatly. I am troubled because our current leadership seems to think that fundemental Islam is something other than traditional Islam and that nothing is done to combat the threat that slowly encroaches upon the western way of life. It's not Armageddon we have to worry about but Jihad.

3kings
December 19, 2004 - 07:22 pm
That's an interesting request Mal, from Tehran. The written word, even before the Internet, often reached into many unexpected places.

The remark from Chancy, "For the first centuries of the Islamic empire, the majority of the population was comprised of highly skilled Christians ruled by a minority of Arab Muslims."

I rejected such a claim at first, thinking it most unlikely, then I remembered the Roman conquest of Greece. A high civilization such as Greece, ruled by the despotic military power called Rome. Then Rome itself falling to the 'Barbarians'. To be sardonic. "So what else is new?"

Another remark, about the Muslim countries being pure Marxist. Even ignoring his putting the cart before the horse, that is a throw away line with no meaning behind it. Is he trying to say Marx was a Muslim in drag ? (BG) +++ Trevor

Fifi le Beau
December 19, 2004 - 09:20 pm
We know from history that the Romans took Greek art, writing, building, and philosophy to Rome along with the Greeks themselves to help build the Roman Empire. The Romans not only used what the Greeks had to offer they added their own style and imprint on history.

The Arabs who marched out of Arabia to raid and plunder their neighbors, did not take much with them to recommend them to the neighborhood. Their houses were built of mud and straw. They were ruled by the local sheik (war lord) and citizens were at his mercy. There was no formal government. They had local dialects but no formal language. There was no art or literature of any consequence.

The countries they invaded were all more advanced than Arabia. The citizens of the invaded lands continued to work and build now under the totalitarian rule of Arabs. The Arabs seemed to have learned nothing from this sojourn of several hundred years.

At the turn of the Twentieth Century in Arabia, their houses were still built of mud and straw. They were still ruled by little fiefdoms run by sheiks using Islamic sharia law. There was no form of government. Their transportation was still the camel and it provided much of their food, shelter, and wealth. There were no great universities of learning, no great works of art, no literature, no philosophy, and it could easily have been 632 AD instead of 1932 AD.

Not only did the Arabs not take anything to the table, they didn't learn anything from the experience, or bring any of it back with them. I agree with Glen Chancy, as this was the history that I was taught long ago. If you were lucky enough to get a professor who had not been corrupted by those who thought of themselves as 'Arabists', you actually were given facts, not some warmed over romantic version of a brutal, corrupt, despotic, totalitarian regime of rapists of little girls.

Fifi

Justin
December 19, 2004 - 11:09 pm
It was Bertrand Russell who mentioned Marxism. Chancey quoted him but did not expand on the thought. I think the next chapter in Durant will deal with the political as well as the economic orientation of the Arabs and Islam. Marxism, of course , is a modern term but not a modern concept. Chancey should have been more explicit and more expressive if he thought Russell was onto something.

3kings
December 20, 2004 - 02:05 am
FIFI I guess the people of Arabia still build their homes of earth and straw. After all there are not many forests in Arabia to provide wood for timber, or to fire clay bricks.

The Berbers of course ( Those who fold their tents like the Arabs, and as quietly steel away )would still use not houses, but tents, and as you suggest live largely from what they can get from camels and an unforgiving desert land.

But these Arabs, who live in Arabia, are not the only people who are Muslim. Durant speaks of Islamists rather than confining his remarks to those whom you perhaps identify as Arabs. There is a whole hotch=potch of peoples and nations belonging to the Muslim faith.

In a short while Durant will ask us to consider mathematics, science, architecture and poetry. When he does, I believe you will be surprised at how much the west owes to this civilization. You will find, I think, they brought as much to the table as they took from it.

As for rapists of little girls, I'm sorry to say rape occurs here in my city, too, and not an Arab in sight... not even a camel.++ Trevor

robert b. iadeluca
December 20, 2004 - 05:03 am
That's great that you are all bouncing these theories back and forth. I was hoping that Chancy would cause this to happen. Now back to Durant:-

"In Islam men raised cattle, horses, camels, goats, elephants, and dogs -- stole the honey of bees and the milk of camels, goats, and cows -- and grew a hundred varieties of grains, vegetables, fruits, nuts, and flowers.

"The orange tree was brought from India to Arabia at some time before the tenth century. The Arabs introduced it to Syria, Asia Minor, Palestine, Dgypt, and Spain, from which countries it pervaded southern Europe.

"The cultivation of sugar cane and the refining of sugar were likewise spread by the Arabs from India through the Near East and were brought by Crusaders to their European states. Cotton was first cultivated in Europe by the Arabs.

"These achievements on lands largely arid were made possible by organized irrigation. Here the caliphs made an exception to their principle of leaving the economy to free enterprise. The government dir3ected and financed the maiantnance of the greter canals.<P"The Euphrates was channeled into Mesopotamia, the Tigris into Persia, and a great canal connected the twin rivers at Baghdad.

"The early Abbasid caliphs encouraged the draining of marshes and the rehabilitation of ruined villages and deserted farms. In the tenth century, under the Samanid princes, the region between Bokhara and Samarkand was considered one of the 'four earthly paradises' -- the others being southern Persia, southern Iraq, and the region around Damascus."

This doesn't sound too arid to me.

Robby

Persian
December 20, 2004 - 09:33 am
In response to FIFI's #265, I'd like to mention that indeed there were institutions of higher learning in the Arab world - specifically Al Azhar University in Cairo, established as a mosque in 972 AD and became a university in 975 AD. It's distinction as a center of learning for Muslims is respected world-wide. Al Azhar is considered the oldest university in the world. It offers religious and secular training (especially in the sciences) to both men and women (in separate faculties).

Certainly, the Qur'an is considered great literature (even by non-Muslims) and often is included in university graduate seminars, not necessarily as holy scripture, but as classical literature. Poetry is a central feature of literature in the Arab world, as it is in Persian literature. Children learn at an early age to respect (and repeat) the glorious words of the more well-known poets. Arabic literature and poetry are spoken, read, listened to and regarded in society as though it appeared yesterday. Words and stanzas from great poems are used as teaching tools by parents towards their children and by teachers in the classrooms. It is quite common in daily conversations with Arabs to hear the names of poets and some of their best-known work repeated in a casual manner.

The absence of "great works of art" depicting humans is due to the prohibition in Islam of trying to recreate God's creations. Yet one only has to look at the artistically designed and magnificent buildings throughout the Arab world to understand that artistic endeavors played an important role in the Islamic Arab civilization. Even emong the nomadic tribes, there is simple beauty, which is stunning.

And, finally, working with "Arabists" - whether academics, diplomats or those who have lived in the Arab world (especially the British) - offers a stellar education. True, some who claim to be Arabists really are not fully cognizant of the field, the peoples and the cultures. But those who are can greatly expand one's thinking and help to develop a broader interest in and respect for the Arab civilization (both ancient and contemporary).

robert b. iadeluca
December 20, 2004 - 05:08 pm
"Gold, silver, iron, lead, mercury, antimony, sulphur, asbestos, marble, and precious stones were mined or quarried from the earth. Divers fished for pearls in the Persian Gulf. Some use was made of naphtha and bitumen. An entry in Harun's archives gives the price of 'naphtha and reeds' used in burning the corpse of Jafar.

"Industry was in the handicraft stage, practiced in homes and artisans shops, and organized in guilds. We find few factories, and no clear advance in technology except the development of the windmill. Masudi, writing in the tenth century, speaks of seeing these in Persia and the Near East. There is no sign of them in Europe before the twelfth century. Possibly they were another gift of the Moslem East to its crusading foes.

"There was much mechanical ingenuity. The water clock sent by Harun al-Rashid to Charlemagne was made of leather and damascened brass. It told the time by metal cavaliers who at each hour opened the door, let fall the proper number of balls on a cymbal, and then, retiring, closed the door.

"Production was slow, but the worker could express himself in integral work, and made almost every industry an art. Persian, Syrian, and Egyptian textiles were famous for the patient perfection of their technique:--Mosul for its connon muslin -- Damascus for its damask linen -- Aden for its wool. Damascus was noted also for its swords of highly tempered steel -- Sidon and Tyre for glass of unexcelled thinness and clarity -- Baghdad for its glass and pottery -- Rayy for pottery, needles, combs -- Raqqa for olive oil and soap -- Fars for perfume and rugs.

"Under Moslem rule western Asia attained a pitch of industrial and commercial prosperity unmatched by western Europe before the sixtteenth century."

I wonder if all this came from the Christians or if Chancy's theory was wrong.

Robby

Fifi le Beau
December 20, 2004 - 07:25 pm
Trevor, when I wrote the word rapist, it related to the Arabian custom of taking young girls before they mature and bonding them into marriage or concubinage to men.

This clever custom (by men) insures that little girls are trapped before they can become teenagers who could rebel or women who might speak for themselves.

The keeping of women as chattel whether the 7th century or the 21st leaves no room for admiration on my part. I write as a woman and speak only for myself, but it was legalized rape I was writing about not the random rapist.

Since Mohammed made it legal in Islam, the marriage of a 6 year old girl to a man, I assumed no explanation would be necessary. I consider it rape without qualification.

When King Abdul Aziz ibn Sa'ud began to lose his sexual prowess in 1950, "it was Yussuf Yassin's special skill-and one key to his influence-to secure ever more luscious concubines for his master, and in the quest for rejuvenation the Syrian drove their ages lower and lower, on the ancient theory that some transfer of vitality can be sparked by contact with the flesh of barely nubile little girls." Robert Lacey

Fifi

Scrawler
December 20, 2004 - 07:38 pm
I think there is always room for hope. But I also think that there are times when we must return to the earth for our answers. Or at least think as if the most important "thing" was Mother Earth.

Fifi le Beau
December 20, 2004 - 09:08 pm
Mahlia, here are my words.

The Arabs who marched out of Arabia

At the turn of the Twentieth century in Arabia

As you can see, I am not discussing Islam, Egypt, Persia, or any of the other countries invaded by the Arabians. I am writing about Arabia of the 7th century and Arabia of the 20th century.

Durant's description of Arabia is rather bleak during Mohammed's time. My description of the 20th century comes from many writers who were there including Americans. Thanks to Snouck Hurgronje, the Dutch Arabist who lived in Mecca at the end of the 1800's we have pictures of what life was like then. And to Mr. Shakespear we have pictures from 1900 forward. A picture truly is worth a thousand words.

As for old Arabists like Lawrence, Philby, Bell, etc. I prefer the older articles from the Middle East Journal or even better the Royal Central Asia Society. The older books are hard to find, and I made a list for my daughter when she was in London, but the 'Journey across Arabia' written in 1819 by Sadleir and republished by Cambridge in the 70's was ordered and it's still not here.

I prefer the older works as I feel they give a clearer picture of life in the middle east in their time, with no political agenda. There is so much published about the middle east in this country that I could never read all of it in three lifetimes. I did get a new book today though called, Blood and Oil.

Back to Durant.

Fifi

Persian
December 20, 2004 - 09:58 pm
FIFI - I agree with you about the older articles. Many of them are splendid. Before I retired for the third time, I subscribed to the Middle East Journal and happily received copies of the Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society from friends at Cambridge and the Library of Congress. I haven't yet read Michael Klare's Blood and Oil : The Dangers and Consequences of America's Growing Dependency on Imported Petroleum (The American Empire Project), but will be interested in your opinion.

JoanK
December 20, 2004 - 10:15 pm
Clancy says a number of different things, and we need to consider them one by one, not assume that he is either all right or all wrong. Let me list some of them here, and take them up one by one:

Clancy says or clearly implies.

1.Islam is Marxist.

2.Islam requires Muslims to conquer the world, or convert everyone to Islam

3.Robby didn't quote this part). The style of fighting employed by the Muslims can always conquer a more civilized country.

4. The Golden age of Islam was actually created by Christians and Jews.

5. Once the non-Muslims had been assimilated, Islamic countries have not advanced beyond the poor, backward conditioned of Mohammed's day.

I want to look at them one by one.

1. Islam is Marxist. As Justin (?) said, this is a meaningless statement, since Clancy didn't say what Russell meant by it.

But while it is meaningless logically, it is far from meaningless emotionally to Americans. We were taught, during the cold war, to hate and fear Marxism -- so saying that something is Marxist immediately takes a discussion out of the realm of logic and makes it an emotional issue. This is the only reason I can think of for Clancy to include such a statement. I have heard conservative talk show hosts do this many times, perhaps more subtly, implying that anyone who disagrees with them is a communist. Such arguments are not worthy of a serious scholar, or of us a serious students.

However, I can think of two things that Russell might have been referring to: first that Islam is a system ruled from above by a strong central power, and second, the admonition in Islam to share income with the poor.

I don't imagine many of us see sharing 2 1/2% of income with the poor as a terrible thing, so we are left with the strong central government.

This is getting too long. Back in a minute.

JoanK
December 20, 2004 - 10:39 pm
2.Islam requires Muslims to conquer the world, or convert everyone to Islam

The Koran may say that, but we learned in studying Christianity that you can't tell what a religion is like by studying its "bible", The fact is that since the middle ages, Islamic nations have not been trying to conquer the world militarily. As I said before. the Islamic military adventures I know of have been to retake land that they believe is theirs and they have been expelled from. To suddenly see Islam as conquering the world is very strange.

And to imply that they would inevitably succeed in conquering countries such as the US is even more bizarre. The terrorist activities that Ben Laden's followers are engaged in have the potential to cause unbelievable chaos, misery, and death, but not to conquer a country.

Islam has converted other people (especially in Africa) but so has almost every other religion

These three things together: that Islam is Marxist, bent on conquering the world, and able to succeed, present a picture that is so bizarre and unsubstantiated, that it seems to me it has more to do with scare tactics than any reality.

However, we are left with something to discuss: the terrorist tactics of Ben Laden. They will not conquer the US, they seem to be motivated by a simple desire to "kill the enemy". Is this just some fanatics, who are able to train children to be fanatic? Or is there something in Islam, and the Islamic idea of Jihad, that makes it easy for this kind of fanaticism to grow?

Fifi le Beau
December 20, 2004 - 10:39 pm
Robby, Durant's use of the terms 'Moslem rule' and 'Islamic civilization' is misleading. The many countries that the "Arabians" invaded already had the things listed such as 'Aden had wool'. Aden had wool from raising sheep for thousands of years before being overrun by Moslems. Moslems didn't create the sheep or the wool.

The countries listed include Persia, Syria, Egypt, Iraq. He lists Sidon and Tyre, Fars and the list goes on. Durant has already written about Egypt and their civilization and I see nothing new added by it coming under the control of Moslems. The same for Persia, Syria, and Iraq. These are all old civilizations who like Persia had rugs and perfumes before any Arabian Moslems took over their country.

As for Sidon and Tyre these two have been around for thousands of years also. The Phoenicians built their own civilization and the silk and purple dye from the snail was already there when the Moslems showed up. Here is a link to the Phoenician cities of Sidon and Tyre. Read what those who claim Phoenician ancestry have to say about their civilization, and see how much credit they give to the Moslems other than eventually destroying their cities.

Lumping all the countries invaded by the Arabian muslims as 'Islamic countries' instead of by their own names is very misleading. Simply because they were forced to take the religion of the Arabians did not change their own history or identity or their accomplishments.

To claim because they became Muslims they created wool, perfume, rugs, glassware, and etc. is not true. Those things were already there when the Muslims showed up. Actually Mohammed used perfume himself as did most Arabians who could afford it, as the smell of camel excrement is hard to mask in a land with perpetual heat and little water.

Durant must have had an 'Arabist' stop by that day.

http://phoenicia.org/cities.html

Fifi

moxiect
December 20, 2004 - 10:53 pm


Correct me if I'm wrong, the tactics of hit and run, kill and destroy has been the tactics of ancient civilizations where the victor wants tribute for famlies, tribes, or whatever for an individual to remain alive either to be free or slave.

Ancient civilizations rose and fell because of economics and FEAR.

Aren't we seeing outright FEAR being instilled in a nation of people who are trying to outcast this ancient pratice?

JoanK
December 20, 2004 - 10:59 pm
4. The Golden Age of Islam was created by Christians and Jews.

I think we will be in a much better position to discuss this after we have read Durant on the culture.

5. Islamic countries have remained on the lavel they were at in the time of Mohammad. This is related to the ideas that Islam covers all of the details of life, and proscribes all details of behavior, and that Islam is ruled by a strong central government. In other words, Islam chokes the society, so that economic, political, and social progress is not possible.

I would like to hear from Mahlia and others about this. Is Turkey the only country that is struggling to develop economically? What about the other Islamic countries? And do they differ from poor countries with less centralized religions?

Both Judaism and Christianity have "fundamentalist" branches where all aspects of living are closely monitored. But these exist alongside more "liberal" branches. In these religions, the religious power is not centralized or strong enough to prevent diversity (at least now). Did it need religious rebellion (the Protestant reformation) to bring this about? (We'll know more about this later in Durant)>

Bubble
December 21, 2004 - 12:58 am
From the GeoNat. Magazine of NEXT month:

A People Apart Isolated in Morocco’s High Atlas range, the mountain Berbers take pride in holding on to a traditional culture now largely lost to their urban kin. But life is still a hard climb in these rugged hills.
By Jeffrey Tayler Photographs by Alexandra Boulat


This should be very interesting since we are discussing the culture of desertic countries.

robert b. iadeluca
December 21, 2004 - 04:16 am
The lively interchange here is getting better by the day. I also know from emails that we have a number of Lurkers. C'mon, Lurkers! Come sit in our living room and give your opinion which, in no way, has to come from expert knowledge.

This is the NATL GEOGRAPHIC ARTICLE to which Bubble is referring.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 21, 2004 - 04:39 am
"Land transport was chiefly by camels, horses, mules, and men. But the horse was too prized to be chiefly a beast of burden. Said an Arab:-'Do not call him my horse. Call him my son. He runs more swiftly than the tempest, quicker than a glance. He is so light of foot that he could dance on the breast of your mistress and she would take no hurt.'

"So the camel, 'ship of the desert,' bore most of the freight of Arab trade. Caravans of 4700 camels swayed across the Moslem world.

"Great roads radiating from Baghdad led through Rayy, Nishapur, Merv, Bokhara, and Samarkand to Kashgar and the Chinese frontier -- through Mosul or Damascus to the Syrian coast. Caravanserais or inns, hospices and cisterns helped the traveler and his beasts. Much inland traffic was borne on rivers and canals. Harun al-Rashid planned a Suez canal, but Yahya, for unknown reasons, probably financial, discouraged the idea.

"The Tigris at Baghdad, 750 feet wide, was spanned by three bridges built upon boats.

"Over these arteries a busy commerce passed. It was an economic advantage to western Asia that one government united a region formerly divided among four states. Customs dues and other trade barriers were removed, and the flow of commodities was further eased by unity of language and faith.

"The Arabs did not share the European aristocrat's scorn of the merchant. Soon they joined Christians, Jews, and Persians in the business of getting goods from producer to consumer with the least possible profit to either.

"Cities and towns swelled and hummed with transport, barter, and sale. Pedlars cried their wares to latticed windows. Shops dangled their stock and resounded with haggling. Fairs, markets, and bazaars gathered merchandise, merchants, buyers, and poets. Caravans bound China and India to Persia, Syria, and Egypt. Ports like Baghdad, Basra, Aden, Cairo, and Alexandria sent Arab merchanmen out to sea.

"Moslem commerce dominated the Mediteranean until the Crusades, plying between Syria and Egypt at one end -- Tunis, Sicily, Morocco, and Spain at the other -- and touching Greece, Italy, and Gaul. It captured control of the Red Sea from Ethiopia. It reached over the Caspian into Mongolia, and up the Volga from Astrakhan to Novgorod, Finland, Scandinavia, and Germany, where it left thousands of Moslem coins.

"It answered the Chinese junks that visited Basra by sending Arab dhows out from the Persian Gulf to India and Ceylon, through the Straits and up the Chinese coast to Khanfu (Canton). A colony of Moslem and Jewish merchants was well established there in the tenth century, when western Europe was at nadir.

"When it subsided, it left its mark upon many European languages in such words as tariff, traffic, magazine, caravan, and bazaar."

And we, of the Western civilization, are so smug about our accomplishments!

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
December 21, 2004 - 05:41 am
I had a phone call last week from someone who lurks in this discussion. She said, "Why isn't anyone in the discussion coming out and saying anything about the threat Islam is to Western civilization?"


Glen Chancy's reference to Marxism with the Bertrand Russell quote was to indicate the totalitarian aspect of Islam, which I think is a very real threat to Western civilization, just as I think Christian fundamentalism and evangelism are very real threats.
"The all-embracing nature of Islamic law can be seen from the fact that it does not distinguish among ritual, law (in the European sense of the word), ethics, and good manners. In principle this legislation controls the entire life of the believer and the Islamic community. It intrudes into every nook and cranny: everything." Ibn Warraq
What does this lack of distinction do to democratic countries in the west?

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
December 21, 2004 - 05:45 am
I did a search using the keywords "Islam Science." The links below take you to some of what I found on Islamic websites.

Human Reproduction in Islam

AIDS prevention. An Islamic approach

History of Islamic Science

Éloïse De Pelteau
December 21, 2004 - 08:49 am
I can only lurk for now as this house is getting filled up to the brim for the Holidays. I like everything I read here and the interchange and links reveal more than I could ever hope to learn at this time in academia.

It is extremely interesting and I hate it when my internet provider quits on me. I will keep on lurking for now.

Éloïse

Scrawler
December 21, 2004 - 11:57 am
Wishing you a Happy Winter Solstice! May you all find peace and harmony throughout the day and throughout the coming year!

JoanK
December 21, 2004 - 12:39 pm
A happy winter solstice to all. From now on, the days will be getting longer.

Justin
December 21, 2004 - 03:37 pm
The Islamic approach to the spread of aids entails a punishment for those who deliberately spread the disease. The recomendations of Verse 33 of al Ma'idah ( The Table) are said to apply. Verse 33 calls for death by crucifixion or to have hands and feet cut off on alternate sides, or be banished from the land. They shall be held up to shame in this world and sternly punished in the hereafter; except those who repent before you reduce them.

"or" is the operative conjuction.

I think those who repent before reduction may escape stern punishment in the hereafter but not the earthly punishment.

Justin
December 21, 2004 - 03:54 pm
There are several Islamic recomendations to prevent the spread of aids that make sense. Their views follow, in my language: First, tell the truth. Second, use a condom. Third, spouses may refuse to have intercourse with an infected spouse. Fourth, abortion within forty days of pregnancy is permissible for infected women.

Some religious advocate should tell the other "great" religion and our Reagan legacy about these religious views.

Justin
December 21, 2004 - 04:30 pm
I think there is an Islamic threat to the western way of life. It might have lain dormant but for 9/11, oil, and American neocon reaction to the perceived threat as an opportunity to gain power.

In an article in a California newspaper, Dr.Laina Farhat Holtzman, says, " I believe, and dread, that we are on the cusp of the last of the religious wars that tore Europe apart from the 16th to the 18th centuries. Those wars were so horrible that a handful of thoughtful man and women finally came to the realization that church and state did not belong together. Religion is best tolerated when a state takes no sides, and when all the religions involved reciprocate."

Dr. Holtzman goes on to say," I see us and the other advanced nations in a religious war with Islam, a religion that claims one billion followers who live all over the world. If we fight them as Christians, it will indeed be the last of the religious wars. If we fight them as modern secular people with a sure grip on the values of our culture, it will be a war against darkness. If we survive this war, it will be time to put belief systems on the shelf of history where they belong."

robert b. iadeluca
December 21, 2004 - 05:01 pm
I have often thought of that and agree with Dr. Holtzman. I do not think the major thrust of the war will be in our lifetimes, however, and agree with her that we are on the cusp.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 21, 2004 - 06:01 pm
"The state left industry and commerce free and aided it with a relatively stable currency. The early caliphs used Byzantine and Persian money, but in 695 Abd-al-Malik struck an Arab coinage of gold dinars and silver dirhems.

"Ibn Hawqal (c.975) describes a kind of promissory note for 42,000 dinars addressed to a merchant in Morocco. From the Arabic word sakk for this form of credit is derived our word check. Investors shared in financing commercial voyages or caravans. Though interest was forbidden, ways were found, as in Europe, of evading the prohibition and repaying caital for its use and risk.

"Monopolies were illegal but propspered. Within a century after Omar's death the Arab upper classes had amassed great wealth and lived on luxurious estates manned by hundreds of slaves. Yahya the Barmakid offered 7,000,000 dirhems ($560,000) for a pearl box made of precious stones and was refused. The Caliph Muqtafi, if we may believe Moslem figures, left at his death 20,000,000 dinars ($94,500,000) in jewelry and perfumes.

"When Harun al-Rashid married his son al-Mamun to Buran, her grandmother emptied a shower of pearls upon the groom. Her father scattered among the guests balls of musk, each of which contained a writ entitling the possessor to a slave, a horse, an estate, or some other gift. After Muqtadir confiscated 16,000,000 dinars of Ibn al-Jassas' furtune, that famous jeweler remained a wealthy man.

"Many overseas traders were worth 4,000,000 dinars. Hundreds of merchants had homes costing from 10,000 to 30,000 dinars ($142,500).

Class differences. It never seems to disappear from civilization to civilization.

Robby

Justin
December 21, 2004 - 07:03 pm
Marxism it is not. Bertram Russell is certinly not looking at the mechanism of trade.

3kings
December 21, 2004 - 07:35 pm
I don't think the Middle Eastern peoples are a threat to the Western nations. In fact, except or Osama Bin Laden, I don't think they want to be.

First, the Moslems lack unity of purpose. The one unifying factor that could bring them together, their religion, has split them asunder, into deep enmity. As witness today's Iraq.

Secondly, they do not have a strong economy. They have oil, it is true, but that is all. When they tried to cripple the West by withholding their product, as in 1950's Iran, or 1970's Opec, they impoverished themselves as much as they did the West. I keep pointing out that without a strong economy a nation is doomed to remain a bit player on the world's stage.

Thirdly, they do not have great military power. Tiny Israel, has withstood all the might of the Moslem world for 50years. True the Jews have had the backing of the US, but surely that only sharpens my argument.

There is a very real threat to the West. It is an economic threat, and it is coming from China. The Chinese are unified, they act and speak with one voice, and they are the fastest growing economic and military power in the world. They, in unison with Japan and India, are set to be the masters of the last 50 years of this century, and probably for longer.

A nation that does not trade with China, and South Asia, on their terms will be just an also ran.++ Trevor

Malryn (Mal)
December 21, 2004 - 09:44 pm

Multiculturalism in Medieval Islam

Persian
December 21, 2004 - 09:47 pm
TREVOR - you've made some very solid points about the role which Asia will assume in the next decades. I am encouraging my 8 and 12 year old grandchildren to study Chinese or Japanese, rather than the languages of Europe.

Chinese students throughout the country begin their English language studies very early. I visited kindergarten classes in several Chinese cities where students were already studying Engliah. And, to my embarassment, I often had to admit that I'd begun my own Chinese language studies only 6 months before arrival.

America has seen how quickly India provided well-trained professionals in many fields throughout the USA. At American universities, Indian students often dominate the graduate programs in various scientific fields. One of their major benefits is that the education system in India stresses English so language barriers are minimized. And of coruse the outsouring of American business to corporate sites in India (and other locales in Asia) is well known and devastating to the American economy in recent years.

Diplomacy and flexible free trade agreements with Asia will be the name of the game for the USA (and other Western countries) in the future.

Justin
December 22, 2004 - 12:56 am
Trevor; I don't think the Middle Eastern countries constitute a serious threat to the Western Nations. Your arguments are well taken and I concur. Dr. Holtzman is pushing a little hard on the immediate outer fabric of reality but she is not talking about tomorrow and the issue here is not nation against nation. It is rather, religion against religion.

Islam, economically weak as it's adherents are today, is in direct opposition to the western way of life, and thanks to oil its power is growing. Further, they are making that new power felt in the west. The Opec created Oil shortage a decade or so ago was one example of their power. 9/11 was another example. Not every war must be fought using armies or broad based economic strength. Erosion and disruption can be a serious crippler.

A much more immediate threat, however, is the growing economic power of China. I think you are quite right in your assessment.

robert b. iadeluca
December 22, 2004 - 05:44 am
"At the bottom of the economic structure were the slaves. They were probably more numerous in Islam in proportion to population than in Christendom, where serfdom was replacing slavery.

"The Caliph Muqtadir, we are told, had 11,000 eunuchs in the household. Musa took 300,000 captives in Africa, 30,000 'virgins' in Spain, and sold them into slavery. Qutayba capatured 100,000 in Sogdiana. The figures are Oriental and must be discounted.

"The Koran recognized the capture of non-Moslems in war and the birth of children to slave parents, as the sole legitimate sources of slavery. No Moslem (just as in Christendom no Christian) was to be enslaved. Nevertheless a brisk trade developed in slaves captured in raids -- negroes from East and Central Africa, Turks or Chinese from Turkestan, whites from Russia, Italy, and Spain.

"The Moslem had full rights of life and death over his slaves. Usually, however, he handled them with a genial humanity that made their lot no worse -- perhaps better, as more secure -- than that of a factory worker in nineteenth century Europe. Slaves did most of the menial work on the farms, most of the unskilled manual work in the towns. They acted as servants in the household and as concubines or eunuchs in the harem. Most dancers, singers, and actors were slaves.

"The offspring of a female slave by her master, or of a free woman by her slave, was free from birth. Slaves were allowed to marry. Their children, if talented, might receive an education.

"It is astonishing how many sons of slaves rose to high place in the intellectual and political world of Islam -- how many, like Mahmud and the early Mameluks, became kings."

The slaves described here seem, in general, to be better off than the slaves in 18th and 19th Century America.

And another thought which I have never had before as we progress through the various civilizations -- considering the large number of eunuchs, there must have been a thriving business in making these men eunuchs -- "technicians" or whatever they were called whose sole job was to conduct this operation.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 22, 2004 - 05:54 am
Mal, your link on Multiculturalism was excellent -- helps us to see the Muslims through different eyes.

Robby

Scrawler
December 22, 2004 - 11:37 am
I also think the next great war will come from Asia and I believe that they are the fastest growing continent in regards to military and economics. But I also think culture will have an impact in next religious war. The more you know about the different cultures of the world, the better you can face them and disarm them.

JoanK
December 22, 2004 - 11:43 am
MAL: I agree. One of the few links we have seen that tried to give a balanced picture.

Persian
December 22, 2004 - 12:50 pm
ROBBY - here is a link to one of the best books I know of on the topic of Eunuchs in history: Eunuchs and Sacred Boundaries in Islamic Society (Oxford University Press, 1995). The author, Shaun Marmon, is a professor of religion at Princeton and writes from an academic excellence much appreciated by readers.

It is also interesting to note that the great number of Eunuchs among the non-Han Chinese contributed significantly to the ruling dynastics as far back as 1700 BC.

Justin
December 22, 2004 - 01:21 pm
The eunuch technicians you refer to Robby, may also have been known as the first ball busters.

monasqc
December 22, 2004 - 01:40 pm
It is in their spirit of collectivity albeit many find difficult to understand the western sense of individuality. On the subject of the threat of the Chinese growing economy, I disagree with Trevor. It is not a secret that the general welfare of the Chinese people is in a critical state. The Republic of China' rule for a growing economy seems to benefit only the rich and the powerful. Unfortunately, the reports about the unsanitary rural life, makes it a potential threat to an eventual epidemic of catastrophic nature. From the Chinese immigrants here in Canada, I have it that they are not satisfied with the social and health care programs. Myself is very concerned about the inappropriate health promotion and prevention programs then of their economic growth. In a few decades, and long controlled birth-ratio favoring male society, the aging Chinese may not even have enough adults to care for them since their youths are looking for a better life elsewhere.

Françoise

Malryn (Mal)
December 22, 2004 - 03:46 pm
JOAN, please remember that many, many of the websites I link are Islamic sites hosted by Muslims, both here in the U.S. and in other countries. I make it a point to try and seek those websites out, so we'll find out the Muslim point-of-view.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
December 22, 2004 - 04:46 pm
Francoise:-Besides the threat of an epidemic in China resulting from unsanitary rural life, there is also the threat of the expansion of the current AIDS epidemic. I don't see China as being a military threat in the sense that Muslim insurgents are at the moment or in the future.

Robby

Persian
December 22, 2004 - 05:31 pm
Although I am not familiar with Asian families in Canada, my experiences with Asian families in the USA is that the younger generations ALWAYS look after the seniors, whether they live together or not.

Numerous Asian immigrants spend many years preparing to bring elderly parents and other family members to the USA, once they are settled themselves. This is especially the case in the larger cities on the West and East coasts, which are home to large Asian communities. The Asian culture is very family-oriented, much like the Middle Eastern culture. Parents and grandparents are highly respected (even in the poorest communities) and considered the core of the family unit. I'm doubtful that a tradition which is so entrenched in the Asian historical culture will change drastically and cause the elderly to be left without resoruces or anyone to care for them in the future.

In Maryland, where I resided for more than 30 years before relocating to North Carolina a few months ago, banks and credit union-type financial institutions have been established in the Asian communities specifically to enable immigrants to bring family members to the USA, once they are gainfully employed themselves. A percentage of funds are especially designated for seniors.

robert b. iadeluca
December 22, 2004 - 06:18 pm
"Exploitation in Asiatic Islam never reached the mercilessness of pagan, Christian, or Moslem Egypt, where the peasant toiled every hour, earned enough to pay for a hut, a loincloth, and food this side of starvation.

"There was and is much begging in Islam and much imposture in begging. But the poor Asiatic had a protective skill in working slowly. Few men could rival him in manifold adaptation to idleness, alms were frequent, and at the worst a homeless man could sleep in the finest edifice in town -- the mosque.

"Even so, the eternal class war simmered sullenly through the years and broke out now and then (778, 796, 808, 838) in violent revolt. Usually, since state and church were one, rebellion took a religious garb. Some sects, like the Khurramiyya and the Muhayyida, adopted the communistic ideas of the Persian rebel Mazdak. One group called itself Surkh Alam -- the 'Red Flag.'

"About 772 Hashim al-Muqanna -- the 'Veiled Prophet' of Khurasan -- announced that he was God incarnate, and had come to restore the commnunism of Mazdak.

"He gathered various sects about him, defeated many armies, ruled northern Persia for fourteen years and was finally (786) captured and killed.

"In 838 Babik al-Khurranbi renewed the effort, gathered around him a band known as Muhammira -- i.e. 'Reds,' -- seized Azerbaijan, held it for twenty-two yers, defeated a succession of armies, and (Tabari would have us believe) killed 255,500 soldiers and captives before he was overcome.

"The Caliph Mutasim ordered Babik's own executioner to cut off Babik's limbs one by one. The trunk was impaled before the royal palace. The head was sent on exhibition around the cities of Khurasan as a reminder that all men are born unfree and unequal."

Durant here mentions the term "communism" which has been commented upon in previous postings.

And then, of course, the usual beheadings and rending of flesh continues.

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
December 22, 2004 - 07:53 pm
Speaking of Chinese policy of one child per family and where male babies are preferred, if not selected, I am wondering what social impact it will have on their population curve. On child per couple is a fairly new phenomenon and the full impact it will have on China's economy and social structure has yet to make itself felt.

monasqc
December 22, 2004 - 08:20 pm
Everything you said is true Robert, the human immunodeficiency virus is now pandemic. In social psychology, we would qualify this as "global" suicidal behavior.

Françoise

Justin
December 22, 2004 - 10:24 pm
I have noticed lately a series of cults or sects in Islam that I was not aware of earlier. We have talked about Shi'a. We have talked about Sunni. Now we encounter Surkh Alam. There have been others that I let pass and I am almost certain there are some we have not yet encountered. Do the various cults all treat the Qu'ran in the same way but differ in goals, geography, venom, and other non religious characteristics?

Malryn (Mal)
December 22, 2004 - 10:25 pm

The Quran and Modern Science

Cherokee Native American Muslims

Malryn (Mal)
December 22, 2004 - 10:31 pm

A brief guide to Islamic sects

Malryn (Mal)
December 22, 2004 - 10:56 pm
"Perhaps the most expensive production this year was the one put on by Upper Marlboro's Evangel Cathedral, which featured three camels, four llamas, vintage cars, body-jolting thunder and a cast of 270 actors. According to Associate Pastor Kevin Matthews, the 15 performances cost $524,000 and were attended by more than 32,000 people."

MORE
Wonder how much they gave to the poor?

Fifi le Beau
December 22, 2004 - 11:23 pm
Durant on slavery writes of Caliph Muqtadir's 11,000 eunuchs, Musa's 300,000 Africans and 30,000 virgins from Spain, Qutayba's 100,000 slaves captured. Then Durant says this, "The figures are Oriental and must be discounted."

I take this to mean that Durant did not believe the figures given by the muslim writers. Deceit and trickery seems to be part of the culture. The Arab word for deceit is 'makara'.

The question of who transformed men into eunuchs is answered by Mal's link to the muslim multicultural writer. He says, "Certainly, unpleasant jobs, such as the castration of eunuchs, were often performed by the dhimmi" The dhimmi were those who were not muslim, but lived under Islamic law so they had to do the worst jobs.

Thanks to photography we have pictures of eunuchs at the end of the 1800's and later from Arabia. In one a black eunuch is standing behind a black slave holding her masters child. He is dressed in a rather feminine looking garb, a style of his own. In another an Arab merchant stands with his white slave who has on a fez.

The Twentieth century pictures are made outside and are not studio prints so they are more telling of place and time. In one photo British officers are being carried ashore on the backs of slaves in Kuwait in 1903. In another in a village in the Asir, slaves stand outside their straw conical huts with their goats. They have a short wrap around their waist, and nothing else. All are barefoot with nothing on their heads or backs.

A photo of a slave in 1946 by Thesiger shows the true face of slavery. The black man is naked from the waist up. He has a basket inverted on his head with the handles behind his neck. His body shows many scars and his face is lined and weary. With little to shield him from the merciless sun, he seems forlorn and does not look at the camera.

The photo of a slave standing over another slave with his sword raised is not know if this was a real beheading or one for the camera. The Arabs sit on their haunches in the background as witnesses. The slave is in rags and barefoot and is black as is the one kneeling at his feet.

As for the thousands of slaves used as concubines, their lot could not be seen as neutral in the slaving business. The ones in the harem of the caliph were a small part of the thousands who lived and died in the most desperate circumstances.

The march of Albanian women taken as slaves is one that is as depraved and degrading as anything I have ever read. Perhaps that is why Durant included Albania in a short chapter, but with little comment.

The Koran says the only source of slavery are those captured in war or are born to slaves. The Arabs never let the Koran stand in the way of getting slaves. Slavery was legal in Saudi Arabia until the 1960's, and they got most of their slaves from the hajj, when Africans who did not have the fare home would sell their children to the Arabs. All of Abdul Aziz sons had their own little black slave who was their age while growing up.

The Arabs would have the world believe that their relentless slaving was benign. That's just more 'makara' on their part, and like the muslim multicultural writer in the link, he is a clever liar, but a liar nonetheless.

Fifi

robert b. iadeluca
December 23, 2004 - 03:58 am
Powerful, Fifi!!

robert b. iadeluca
December 23, 2004 - 04:16 am
"The most famous of these 'servile wars' of the East was organized by Ali, an Arab who claimed descent from the Prophet's son-in-law. Near Basra many Negro slaves were employed in digging saltpeter. Ali represented to them how badly they were treated, urged them to follow him in reevolt, and promised them freedom, wealth -- and slaves.

"They agreed, seized food and supplies, defeated the troops sent against them, and built themselves independent villages with palaces for their leaders, prisons for their captives, and mosques for their prayers (869). The employers offered Ali five dinars ($23.75) per head if he would persuade the rebels to return to work. He refused.

"The surrounding country tried to starve them into submission. When their supplies ran out, they attacked the town of Obolla, freed and absorbed its slaves, sacked it, and put it to flames (870).

"Much encouraged, Ali led his men against other towns, took many of them, and captured control of southern Iran and Iraq to the gates of Baghdad. Commerce halted and the capital began to starve. In 871 the Negro general Mohallabi, with a large army of rebels, seized Basra. If we may credit the historians, 300,000 persons were massacred, and thousands of white women and children, including the Hashimite aristocracy, became the concubines or slaves of the Negro troos.

"For ten years the rebellion continued. Great armies were sent to suppress its amnesty and rewards were offered to deserters. Many of his men left Ali and joined the government's forces. The remnant was surrounded, besieged, and bombarded with molten lead and 'Greek fire' -- flaming torches of naphtha.

"Finally, a government army under the vizier Mowaffaq made its way into the rebel city, overcame resistance, killed Ali, and brought his hed to the victor. Mowaffaq and his officers knelt and thanked Allah for His mercies (883).

"The rebellion had lasted fourteen years and had threatened the whole economic and political structure of Eastern Islam. Ibn Tulun, governor of Egypt, took advaantage of the situation to make the richest of the caliph's provinces an independent state."

Reminds me of Spartacus in Rome. I don't recall whether in the United States or anywhere else there had been similar uprisings.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
December 23, 2004 - 06:04 am

Race and Slavery in the Middle East by Bernard Lewis

Scrawler
December 23, 2004 - 11:58 am
I was doing some research in regards to the U.S. Secret Service. The secret service depend on the local law enforcement to help them protect the U.S. president. According to, Philip H. Melanson's "The Secret Service: The Hidden History of an Enigmatic Agency" the safest place in the world for an American president to be is China. Makes you stop and think doesn't it.

Fifi le Beau
December 23, 2004 - 02:36 pm
The slave rebellion led by Ali threatened the economic and political structure of Eastern Islam. This allowed the Governor of Egypt to take advantage of the situation and make Egypt an independent state.

The Caliph of Baghdad was the nominal head of Islam, but in reading links here and from other sources, it seems that Baghdad never controlled all of the lands overrun by the muslims. Here is a short guideline to independence from the Caliph of Baghdad as the center of Islamic power.

Spain declared its independence in 756, Morocco in 788, Tunis in 801, Egypt in 868. There may be more but since I was reading about Spain it probably only covered that area.

The Shi'ite of Iran separated in 765 and had captured the Caliphate for themselves. They too were driven out at a later date.

When the Turks took over and eventually dissolved the title Caliph and all it enjoined, the battle over differences in Islam has been centered on Mecca. There have been many attempts to take over that shrine- some of them recent.

Fifi

Traude S
December 23, 2004 - 03:36 pm
Thank you, MAL, for the excellent link.

I'd like to take this opportunity to mention an article in the Sunday NYT, page 6, by Richard Bernstein, titled A Runaway Personifies Germany's 'Multi-Kulti' Debate. It shows the "other" side of the issue, in this case a Turkish teenager in Berlin whose parents insisted on her marrying an older, wealthy man- sight unseen. She escaped, went "underground", found refuge in a shelter in Berlin, where she lives in the shadows and in fear. (Other cases like this have been publicized in the Swiss weekly Weltwoche

The NYT article, not overly long, might be of interest in our considering the PRACTICAL effects of multiculturalism in our time.

Perhaps the article could be "produced" in a link. It would be quite relevant, I believe.

Sunknow
December 23, 2004 - 04:03 pm
Unworthy of Honor: Khomeini's tribute is a disgrace

07:54 PM CST on Tuesday, December 21, 2004

Most Americans remember the Ayatollah Khomeini. He was one of the great villains of the 20th century, who bequeathed his patrimony of fanaticism and hatred to the 21st.

Khomeini led the 1979 Iranian revolution that overthrew the corrupt shah and replaced the government with a brutal Islamic theocracy that today is locked in battle with reformers seeking to end a quarter century of repression. Khomeini preached worldwide violent Islamic revolution, thundering that "those who study Islamic Holy War will understand why Islam wants to conquer the whole world."

Also Online Mohamed Elibiary: We can't afford to ignore opposing opinions "Why do you only read the Quranic verses of mercy and do not read the verses of killing?" Khomeini challenged fellow clerics in a 1981 speech. "Qu'ran says: kill, imprison! Why are you only clinging to the part that talks about mercy? Mercy is against God." The tyrant also exhorted his followers to "kill all the unbelievers just as they would kill you all."

That's some vision. Yet a Muslim group based in Irving hosted a seminar earlier this month paying "tribute to the great Islamic visionary." It's chilling to think that any local Muslim would be willing to honor such a man, especially with the United States under the threat of attack by Islamic terrorists.

Dismayingly, the list of speakers at the Irving event included some of North Texas' best-known mainstream Islamic figures, including Dr. Yusuf Kavakci of Dallas Central Mosque, widely considered a moderate. He and other leaders shared the roster with Mohammed Asi, a radical Washington imam whom, according to The Washington Post, U.S. officials suspect to be an Iranian agent.

Dr. Kavakci declined two invitations to tell us why he attended the conference. We tried to obtain a tape of the conference, but we're told none is available. Another attendee, Mohamed Elibiary, president and CEO of the Plano-based Freedom and Justice Foundation, shares his reasons for attending on the opposite page. Still, we are hard-pressed to understand what good could possibly come from attending – let alone hosting – such a forum.

Event organizer Imam Shamshad Haider told us that Khomeini has been unjustly portrayed in the Western media. He complained in a television interview last week that Khomeini had been unfairly judged on only one aspect of his personality.

Imam Haider insists that the theme of the conference was Muslim unity. Other area Muslim leaders who spoke at the event support this contention, saying they agreed to speak to foster cohesion between Sunni and Shia Muslims, not necessarily to endorse Khomeini.

That may be true on one level. But no amount of good Khomeini might have done can possibly balance his blood-soaked legacy. Unity is a poor excuse for legitimizing the views of Khomeini admirers by appearing at this event, even if it drew fewer than 100 attendees, as one participant told us.

If Muslim leaders want to be perceived by the broader community as men of good will and moderation, they need to make clear what they consider radical and extreme and treat it accordingly.

Pockets of Islamic radicalism exist in North Texas. We don't believe – and this is important to get straight – that they characterize most Muslims in the Dallas area. But these elements are here, and we cannot afford to ignore them. Neither can the Muslim community avoid the responsibility for policing itself.

As former FBI counterterrorism chief and Rowlett resident Oliver "Buck" Revell tells us, "If we continue to be deaf, dumb and blind to what's plainly in front of us, we have no one to blame but ourselves."

robert b. iadeluca
December 23, 2004 - 04:10 pm
I believe this the NY TIMES ARTICLE to which Traude is referring.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 23, 2004 - 05:13 pm
I believe that most of you know that a year ago September my 52-year old son, Roland, had a seizure and was diagnosed with a brain tumor. He is now under Hospice care and his condition is status quo. His right side is paralyzed but he is not in any pain. I am leaving early tomorrow morning for Florida, will stay with him through Christmas and will return here Monday. In addition, my experience each year is that the amount of postings before, at Christmas, and the day after are meager due to family commitments.

For those two reasons I have decided not to make any more postings until Monday evening. At that time I will begin the next sub-topic, i.e. "The Faith", as shown above in the GREEN quotes. This is your forum so please feel free to post at any time during those days but I will bring Durant back to us Monday evening.

Robby

Fifi le Beau
December 23, 2004 - 05:57 pm
Here is an opposing view of Bernard Lewis and the repercussions of his writings and actions. Ahmed Chalabi is a protege of Lewis, who calls Chalabi, a latter-day Ataturk, when he is really a present day kleptocrat in my opinion.

There is a connection to Turkey and the Ottoman empire. Chalabi says that his family came to Iraq from Turkey with the Ottoman sultan Murad 1V in 1638. He says his family became the richest in all Iraq. They had the contract to export Iraq's grain surplus. Their holdings included a farm south of Baghdad a hundred square miles in area. Kleptocracy must run in the family.

Hirsh on Lewis and Islam

Fifi

JoanK
December 23, 2004 - 07:48 pm
ROBBY: give our good wishes to your son, and tell him how much we appreciate the gifts his father gives us every day.

robert b. iadeluca
December 23, 2004 - 07:55 pm
Thank you, Joan. I have printed out and mailed to him what we do on Senior Net.

Robby

Traude S
December 23, 2004 - 10:11 pm
MAL, thank you for your excellent link.

The Sunday NYT carried an article, on page 6, which may be of interest in this context. Written by Richard Bernstein, its title is "A Runaway Personifies Germany's 'Multi-Kulti' Debate".

The article describes the plight of a teenager whose Turkish-born parents threatened to kill her unless she agreed to marry a man from Turkey whom she had never seen. She escaped and has been living since in a shelter in Berlin, whose location cannot be disclosed. It is run by a government-supported private social welfare organization that has helped more than one thousand girls like this 18-year old since 1986.

"Integration takes a long time," according to Barbara Joh, the former commissioner for foreign affairs in Berlin.

Justin
December 23, 2004 - 11:30 pm
The Hirsh article from the Wahington Monthly concludes after a lengthy sifting of the Bernard Lewis arguments and those of his academic opponents that the best possible outcome in Iraq is a hybrid government brokered by Sistani- a government that is an Islamic democracy based on the contradictions of the Iranian model.

It is pointed out, and justly, that separation of church and state is a long drawn out process that the people of the US have not yet solved for themselves. Fifty one percent of us think the US government should be more Christian than it is. The balance are happy with the secular posture of out government and would like that posture to be extended.

It is pointed out in the article that the concept of separation of church and state began with the Reformation in the 16th century and is not yet resolved in the US though Europe has settled the issue in the main.

Such reasoning leads one to accept a hybrid government in Iraq as the most one can hope for.

Turkey, has had Attaturk to push the country into a modern posture but it is not yet at a level that is acceptable to Europe. The efforts of the Shah in Iran were completely lost when Mossedech was ousted and the Ayatollah took over.

Perhaps, in the end, the most we can hope for is a blend of Islam and democracy that has not as yet been defined.

Bubble
December 24, 2004 - 04:10 am
Merry Christmas, Robby. I hope you have a meaningful meeting and celebration with Roland. The not being in pain is a blessing. May you both find joy and comfort in each other. Bubble

Malryn (Mal)
December 24, 2004 - 07:40 am
I'm so glad ROBBY is going to spend time with Roland.

And I'm glad that yesterday I found a little gray and white cat to take the place of my black cat companon for sixteen years, who died recently. Now that big empty gap is filled, and my place is full of lively kitty activity.

I agree with what Hirsh has said about Bernard Lewis. Here's yet another view from Justin E. H. Smith, who teaches philosophy at Concordia University in Montreal, Canada.
The Lesson from Turkey
Mal

Justin
December 24, 2004 - 06:08 pm
I hope each of you experience a happy holiday period. Some of the things we can be happy about this year are Robby's visit to Roland and the news that he is stable at status quo, that Mal has a new kitty to bring her joy, that Bubble in Natanya is not under attack, that Mahlia's son is out of Iraq and with his family, that Francoise has come back to us and her Mama isn't mad at me. Our blessings are many.

I will have 25 or so family members here for dinner and games on the 26th. Thank goodness the election is behind us so we will not have to wrestle with that. Some of my grands voted for the first time.

Joy to all and to all a good night.

Persian
December 24, 2004 - 07:03 pm
Let me slip in to wish all a very happy holiday. I've just finished visiting with my son and his family. We shared a lively luncheon together and were grateful to be able to sit together in peace and harmony. David, his wife and children leave Sunday for a week long family vacation in New Orleans, a time to be together, recharge their emotional batteries and appreciate their blessings. A few more months and David heads to Africa for his third deployment.

My sincere wishes for a splendid holiday and a truly Happy New Year!

Fifi le Beau
December 24, 2004 - 10:01 pm
Merry Christmas everyone.

Fifi

Bubble
December 25, 2004 - 03:16 am
Merry Christmas, I hope you are enjoying "the morning after" with rest and happy memories of yesterday.

Mahlia, where will David be deployed, do you know? I hope it is not in Congo: deplorable situation there right now. It seems as hopeless as in Irak or here.

You are right Justin, we should be grateful. All was blissfully quiet this last night in Bethlehem... Not so in Gaza were 10 rockets fell on a settlement. How was the dinner? Tell us the menu... Do you have "Buche de Noel" as dessert?

Malryn (Mal)
December 25, 2004 - 04:14 am

Today is Christmas in the northern hemisphere, BUBBLE. Yesterday was Christmas Eve when stockings were hung by the chimney with care, in hopes that Saint Nicholas soon would be there.

My daughter, Dorian, made Mussels in a wine broth, Scampi and Steamed Alaskan Crab for dinner last night with tomato slices and fresh mozzarella cheese marinated in olive oil, vinegar and basil as a side dish. There was chocolate pie for dessert, not Buche de Noel. Tonight we're having roast prime ribs of beef. We're eating high off the hog.

I'm giving Dorian Tom Wolfe's book, I Am Charlotte Simmons. To Jim, her partner, I am giving his favorite penny candy. To my grandson, Hil, Dorian's son, I am giving a box of those little oranges with the fancy name I've forgotten. And to my new little cat, Vivian Baben, I am giving lots and lots of love.

Good wishes and good cheer to everyone.

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
December 25, 2004 - 05:11 am

So who was this Jewish boy whose wrongly dated birthday is celebrated December 25th?

moxiect
December 25, 2004 - 07:25 am


MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE!

Bubble
December 25, 2004 - 08:15 am
Wrongly dated birthday? Yes, same as St Nicolas is wrongly dated if you expect him on Christmas! He usually visits on the 6th of December, together with Pere Fouettard who deals with punishing those particularly naughty children.

St Nicolas's depictions in speculaas or in pain d'epice are sold all over Holland and Belgium but only at this time. It is a yearly treat to eat them. For those who never had them, speculass are dark brown cookies, very crisp, made with butter and brown sugar, which litterally melt in the mouth.

Mal, your meal sounds like a festin to me! It is already two years since I had last that pot of mussels. Bubble

Éloïse De Pelteau
December 25, 2004 - 10:14 am
I hope Robby is having a good time with Roland in Florida. May God bless this precious time they have together.

In my house, all but one of my 6 children will be here in a few hours, Daniel who came from Switzerland, Céline from Florida with my 2 grand kids, my twin daughters, Françoise from Lachine with her son Charles and Madeleine from Ottawa with husband and my grandson with his significant other, and my Isabelle and hubby plus two grands children living downstairs in our duplex. Last night we sang Carols all together in French and English. Two America grands don't speak French,

Tonight we will eat turkey, and meat pies plus traditional deserts the 15 of us some we don't see except every two years.

It is a wonderful time for a mom to have her family around her.

I wish you all as good a Christmas holiday as I am having. I love you all and there is no way I could ever be mad at you Justin. Mal I am so happy that you have a cat to keep you company. Give my regards to Dorian, she is a darling girl. Bubble, I noticed on the French TV5 channel that it was 70 F. in Tel Aviv yesterday. No, not us, but we do have a White Christmas.

I have to go, I am madly busy as you can imagine.

MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYBODY

Éloïse

georgehd
December 25, 2004 - 02:14 pm
I am still lurking hoping to again join this discussion next year. Your posts and your links are superb. I felt the need to add one of my own. Today's NYTimes has an op ed piece by David Brooks, The Hookie Awards; the awards are for outstanding essays (in the author's opinion) written in 2004. I have looked at two and find them most interesting. Just go to the link below and then, as your interest dictates, to the other links contained in the article. While you are doing that, I will be going back in this discussion to see what has been going on. I want to see what Hirch has to say about Lewis and Islam.

Happy holidays and wishes for a bright and meaningful new year.

George Here is the link:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/25/opinion/25brooks.html?oref=login&hp

Malryn (Mal)
December 27, 2004 - 10:34 am

GEORGE, it certainly is good to see you. I hope you'll be back with us soon.

Isn't anybody coming in even to say hello? I could bore you with a description of the dialogue about Islam I had over the holiday. It was a no-win argument with a person who thinks Islam is "idealistic", and Muslims fight for what they believe. So should non-Muslims, this person thinks.

That led to talk about stem cell research, which evolved into a discussion about how dangerous it would be to create perfect human beings, not exactly how I perceive this kind of research. I gave up and came home and went to bed.

Has anyone here heard of Daniel Pipes? You can read about what he thinks about Islam in the Harvard Magazine by clicking this link. Militant about "Islamism"

Mal

Scrawler
December 27, 2004 - 11:14 am
Has anyone read the short story "Islands in the Sea" by Harry Turtledove?

Introduction: "Islam exploded out of Arabia in the seventh century. The triumphant armies of the caliphs overthrew the Persian Empire and took Syria, Palestine, Egypt, and North Africa from the East Roman or Byzantine Empire. Muslim forces twice besieged Constantinople, in 674-78 and 717-18. In our history, the Byzantine capital held and the Byzantine Empire survived as Christianity's eastern bulwark, holding Islam out of Anatolia and the Balkans for centuries to come and converting the Bulgars and Russians to faith in Christ. But what if the Empire had fallen in the eight century instead of the fifteenth? The still-pagan folk to the north of Constantinople would have had new choices to make..."

It was a great alternate history short story.

Fifi le Beau
December 27, 2004 - 05:02 pm
George, thank you for the link. I have just now had time to read the first one titled "When Islam breaks down" by Theodore Dalrymple. As a doctor he has a unique position to see a side of muslims that most in the media never see, and certainly don't report on.

His trip to Afghanistan as a student was like others I have read. All by young men who seem taken with the 'wild' dignity and nobility of the Afghan. Men admire their 'wildness' and consider them free-er than us, that may be true but at what cost to society when there are no rules. In the next breath he tells us, "You know they would defend you to the death if necessary-or cut your throat like a chicken".

This one sentence was worth the reading, "Kowtowing to absurd and dishonest multiculturalist pieties". He wrote those lines in response to the blind eye the press and society has turned on the young women who are forced into unwanted marriages, where they are mistreated or worse, among other things.

He bursts the balloon of 'culture' to explain away their criminality, promiscuity, heroin, and other crimes. It is the muslims who are filling the prisons from the Indian sub-continent, not the Sikhs and Hindus.

His insight into the demanding, right now, I want it, scenario is on the mark. "They want to live as in the 7th century and dominate the 21st. They want the power that free inquiry confers, without either the free inquiry or the philosophy and institutions that guarantee that free inquiry".

Dalrymple gives a fascinating look at what's under the rock when it's removed. His insight is remarkable.

Fifi

robert b. iadeluca
December 27, 2004 - 05:50 pm
Hi, Folks! I'm back from visiting with Ro (as we call him) and it was a wonderful visit -- serious discussions and lots of laughing. No crying. We worked that out some time ago. We had planned to play Scrabble and other games. What a joke! I arrived Friday at 2 p.m. and we talked and talked until 10 p.m. Although he had food in the house, being the two bachelors that we are, we just subsisted on sandwiches, soda, and pie and ice cream. Then we got up on Saturday (Christmas) and talked and talked all day until about 10 p.m. Our Christmas dinner? Corn flakes and sandwiches and pie and ice cream throughout the day.

Yesterday (Sunday) my cousin, Diane, and her husband, Fred, who live a couple of hours away arrived with big trays of Lasagna. I had known she was coming with the meat lasagna -- I am a vegetarian and he is, as he calls himself, a carnivore -- but it was a surprise for him. So we ate like kings yesterday. Then this morning we had a few hours before I had to leave for the airport and we talked and talked and talked. You need to understand that Ro and I had always been close and this was a renewing of our old relationship.

After his seizure his right side became paralyzed and he was placed under Hospice care. He has daily visits from a nurse and an occasional social worker. Medicare pays for his medications. However, he is ever so gradually gaining the strength in his right leg and is beginning to walk. When I visited him in June, he was in a wheel chair. Then he began to be able to get around with a cane. Now the cane is there but he doesn't use it. Here's the "problem" however. He can't let Hospice know that he is getting better or he will be taken off and will receive no care or medications. He is not in pain but when they regularly ask him, he tells them that right toe is beginning to get numb, etc. In this way they will see that he is "declining" and needs their care.

Isn't that awful?

Robbt

robert b. iadeluca
December 27, 2004 - 06:20 pm
The Faith

robert b. iadeluca
December 27, 2004 - 06:33 pm
"Next to bread and women, in the hierarchy of desire, comes eternal salvation. When the stomach is satisfied, and lust is spent, man spares a little time for God.

"Despite polygamy, the Moslem found considerable time for Allah and based his morals, his laws, and his government upon his religion.

"Theoretically the Moslem faith was the simplest of all creeds:-'There is no god but Allah, and Mohammed is His Prophet.' (La ilaha il-Allah, Muhammad-un Rasulu-llah.)

"The simplicity of the formula is only apparent, for its second clause involves the acceptance of the Koran and all its teachings. Consequently the orthodox Muslem also believed in heaven and hell -- angels and demons -- the resurrection of body and soul -- the divine predestination of all events -- the Last Judgment -- the four duties of Moslem practice -- prayer, alms, fasting, and pilgrimage -- and the divine inspiration of various prophets who led up to Mohammed.

"Said the Koran:-'For every nation there is a messenger and prophet (x,48). Some Moslems reckon such messengers at 224,000. But apparently only Abraham, Moses, and Jesus were considered by Mohammed as having spoken the word of God.

"Hence the Moslem was required to accept the Old Testament and the Gospels as inspired scriptures. Where these contradicted the Koran it was because their divine text had been willfully or unwittingly corrupted by men. In any case the Koran superseded all previous revelations, and Mohammed excelled all their other messengers of God.

"Moslems proclaimed his mere humanity, but revered him almost as intensely as Christians worshiped Christ. Said a typical Moslem:-'If I had been alive in his time, I would not have allowed the Apostle of God to put his blessed foot upon the earth, but would have borne him upon my shoulders wherever he wished to go.'"

Any comments so far?

Robby

3kings
December 27, 2004 - 06:41 pm
ROBBY when you say "Isn't that awful," do you mean awful because he is dishonest (about his physical condition), or awful because he has to lie to the authorities in order to get those very necessary medications ?

I suspect he is not being totally honest with the Hospice because he needs those medications as he also needs food and drink.

His behaviour reminds me of that of my wife, when she was set free from Stalin's labour camps. She is a devout Catholic, and regards theft or dishonesty with scorn.

Yet on her journey through Russia, she actively stole food when ever necessary. It was either that, or a miserable death from starvation. When in a desperate situation all of us do what ever is needed to survive.

Life and health are the most precious things we have, and each of us will do what ever we can to preserve ourselves. I would behave much as Ro. His is sensible behaviour in my opinion. ++ Trevor

Traude S
December 27, 2004 - 07:45 pm
Welcome back, ROBBY. I am glad you had such a good visit with your son.

MAL, thank you for posting the important link to the article about Daniel Pipes. Where did it originally appear? I knew of Daniel Pipes and recall having seen him on TV a number of years ago.

Some phrases in the article are memorable, even though taken out of context, e.g.
"... to define and promote the American interests in the Middle East ..." (lots of room right there for heated discussion...)

"Israel and Turkey and other democracies as they emerge ..." (EMERGE, nota bene). (Is Iraq emerging yet?)

Pipes about his "... social life with people I disagreed with ..." and "the rifts were too deep ..." (Isn't that applicable in our own time, e.g. the rifts between differently-thinking family members and friends of the "red" versus the "blue" persuasion? I had one such long conversation on Christmas Eve up in NH.)



Regarding "Islam in a neutral fashion ...", I admire and fully share this honorable intention, but I fear it is not being practiced on a wide scale these days, and certainly not encouraged.

Over many centuries, ordinary citizens had scant knowledge about Islam because the Catholic Church kept a tight lid on the information it gleaned, and suppressed much of it.

At this point in time (as John Dean used to say during the Watergate Hearings), we ordinary citizens need to look beyond the information we are given and search more deeply, as we are doing here, all the while remaining unbiased, 'neutral', in other words.

No discussion or debate is ever wasted, I believe, when the parties have LISTENED with care, even as they go back to their own positions.

MAL, I haven't had much time to come in to say "hello" anywhere these past few days, including the Mythology folder. These were precious days. My daughter is flying back to CA in a few hours and I'll be up until then but possibly drop in again in the wee hours ...

Persian
December 27, 2004 - 08:55 pm
ROBBY - it was a pleasure to read about your visit with your son. Uplifting and great family togetherness.

I've been away from the discussion for a couple of days. My Uncle, who lived in Las Vegas, died Christmas morning. Thus, I've been busy with family, funeral arrangements, discussions with the priest, tracking my son down on his family vacation in New Orleans, etc. Strange how the Holidays can combine joyfulness and sadness.

I'm glad to see that Daniel Pipes' work has been introduced into the discussion. His focus on the Middle East has intrigued me for many years. If one can look past his rather blunt manner - and it IS certainly blunt - he contributes some very interesting points to ponder. One need not agree with all his comments, but he does offer a lot to think about.

MAL - did any of the recent deluge of snow reach your yard? I thought about you when I read the news about Eastern North Carolina.

Justin
December 27, 2004 - 11:52 pm
Our house and dinner guests have left and as I go over the things that were said during the holiday I find that so much of it was surface stuff extracted in sound bites from the tv news. Post election commentary was very popular at our table. I had one thoughtful conversation about Islam with a law school student whose roommate is doing a masters in Middle Eastern Studies. It was nice to get fresh, meaningful, feed back.

I am anxious to read the Dalrymple article and the piece about Pipes. I have heard that Pipe is blunt but that what he says is well worth reading.

George: It is a warm welcome I offer you. Let us hope you can stay on awhile. Thank you for the Hookies. Dave Brooks writes well himself and although he tends to favor a conservative position on most topics, which makes his stuff predictable, I do enjoy reading him.

Robby: I thought some one with a brain tumor might be too far removed from reality to carry on a conversation but from what you say, Ro is very alert and that must have been good news to you.

robert b. iadeluca
December 28, 2004 - 05:19 am
Justin:-It depends on where in the brain the tumor is located. If it is in the speech center, one can't talk -- if it is in the frontal lobe, one has thinking problems. His is in the part of the brain that affects muscular ability. He talks up a storm (like me!) and as much as he always did. Sometimes he is bothered because he can't remember something, but I don't see any difference between his problem and the lapse of memory that everyone has. A year ago the neurologist gave him 13 months. I told him that he might go on for another 20 years and he agrees. He had to sell his house because he couldn't afford the mortgage but now with the small amount of money he receives, he has rented a small place which he has outfitted very well with Salvation Army furniture. It looks very nice. I was impressed with how he is dealing with his life.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 28, 2004 - 05:32 am
Durant continues:-

"Making their faith still more complex, good Moslems accepted and obeyed, besides the Koran, the traditions (Hadith) preserved by their learned men of their Prophet's customs (Sunna) and conversation.

"Time brought forward questions of creed, ritual, morals, and law to which the holy book gave no clear answer. Sometimes the words of the Koran were obscure and needed elucidation. It was useful to know what, on such points, the Prophet or his Companions had done or said. Certain Moslems devoted themselves to gathering such traditions.

"During the first century of their era they refrained from writing them down. They formed schools of Hadith in divers cities and gave public discourses reciting them. It was not unusual for Moslems to travel from Spain to Persia to hear a Hadith from one who claimed to have it in direct succession from Mohammed.

"In this way a body of oral teaching grew up alongside the Koran, as the Mishna and Gemata grew up beside the Old Testament. And, as Jehuda ha-Nasi gathered the oral law of the Jews into written form in 189, so in 870, al-Bukhari, after researches which led him from Egypt to Turkestan, critically examined 600,000 traditions, and published 7275 of them in his Sahih -- 'Correct Book.'

"Each chosen tradition was traced through a long chain (isnad) of named transmitters to one of the Companions, or to the Prophet himself."

Once again we see the "dangers" of interpretations in this as in all religions.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
December 28, 2004 - 07:48 am
Though the U.S. government likes what Daniel Pipes thinks, I disagree with much of it, especially his witch-hunt tendencies.

A man who is opposed to a lot of what Daniel Pipes says is Juan Cole. Juan R. I. Cole is Professor of Modern Middle East and South Asian History at the History Department of the University of Michigan. " Professor Cole's current research focuses on two contemporary phenomena: 1) Shiite Islam in Iraq and Iran and 2) the 'jihadi' or 'sacred-war' strain of Muslim radicalism, including al-Qaeda and the Taliban among other groups."
An article by Juan Cole


Juan Cole Blog

Malryn (Mal)
December 28, 2004 - 08:00 am
"Despite polygamy, the Moslem found considerable time for Allah and based his morals, his laws, and his government upon his religion." (And this is what worries me.)
ROBBY, it sounds as if you had a wonderful time visiting Roland. I'm glad, and I am also glad to have a bit of news about Diane, who very kindly allowed me to publish some of her writing in Sonata.

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
December 28, 2004 - 08:10 am
A mob of Sikhs closes down an "offensive play" in Birmingham, England

georgehd
December 28, 2004 - 12:59 pm
This is the second installment of the essays for 2004; the first installment I posted last week.\

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/28/opinion/28brooks.html?oref=login&hp

Shasta Sills
December 28, 2004 - 02:30 pm
Robby, I keep thinking about your visit with your son. My daughter died four years ago. She was my only child and we were always close. She died suddenly and unexpectedly and I was in shock for weeks. I kept saying, "But we didn't get to say goodbye!" We had always talked about everything and I couldn't bear it that our relationship was suddenly broken off without even a goodbye. But would it have been any better if I had known she was going to die? Maybe for us it was better this way. But I still can't accept that.

robert b. iadeluca
December 28, 2004 - 03:29 pm
I'm glad you shared that, Shasta. We are a loving family here. In my case, I am the one making cremation preparations and it all seems so odd. There is no "better" way to handle death. I have gradually come to realize that from what we have learned here.

Stay active with us, Shasta. I am guessing that your daughter would have preferred that.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 28, 2004 - 06:00 pm
"Many of the traditions put a new color upon the Moslem creed. Mohammed had not claimed the power of miracles but hundreds of pretty traditions told of his wonder-working -- how he fed a multitude from food hardly adequate for one man -- exorcised demons -- drew rain from heaven by one prayer, and stopped it by another -- how he touched the udders of dry goats and they gave milk -- how the sick were healed by contact with his clothes or his shorn hair

"Christian influences seem to have molded many of the traditions. Love toward one's enemies was inculcated, although Mohammed had sterner views. The Lord's Prayer was adopted from the Gospels. The parables of the sower, the wedding guests, and the laborers in the vineyard were put into Mohammed's mouth.

"All in all, he was transformed into an excellent Christian, despite his nine wives. Moslem critics complained that much of the Hadith had been concocted as Umayyad, Abbasid, or other propaganda.

"Ibn Abi al-Awja, executed at Kufa in 772, confessed to having fabricated 4000 traditions. A few skeptics laughed at the Hadith collections and composed indecent stories in solemn Hadith form.

"Nevertheless, the acceptance of the Hadith, in one or the other of the approved collections, as binding in faith and morals, became a distinguishing mark of orthodox Moslems, who therefore received the name of Sunni, or traditionalists.

"One tradition represented the angel Gabriel as asking Mohammed:-'What is Islam' -- and made Mohammed reply:-'Islam is to believe in Allah and His Prophet, to recite the prescribed prayers, to give alms, to observe the fast of Ramadan, and to make the pilgrimage to Mecca.'

"Prayer, almsgiving, fasting, and pilgrimage constitute the 'Four Duties' of Moslem religion. These, with belief in Allah and Mohammed, are the 'Five Pillars of Islam.'"

Durant helps us to see how a religion grows and changes over time.

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
December 28, 2004 - 07:12 pm
Shasta, I am sorry about your daughter, your only child too. At this time especially it must have been harder when you remember all the Christmasses you shared together. My husband died at 46 in an accident and my last goodbye was a wave of the hand from the livingroom window, he waved, smiled and drove off. That was the last time I saw him alive.

Christmas is always the time when you remember those you loved that are gone.

Robby, it's nice that Roland is doing better, let's hope it will continue that way.

robert b. iadeluca
December 28, 2004 - 07:29 pm
Here are some notes on the CHRISTIAN INFLUENCE ON ISLAM.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 28, 2004 - 07:37 pm
Some thoughts of CHRISTIANITY VS ISLAM.

Robby

Justin
December 28, 2004 - 08:08 pm
So, are those who accept the traditions of the Hadith as binding in faith and morals called Sunni? I have long been uncertain about the distinctions between Sunni and Shi'a. Now I have another piece of the puzzle in hand.

The Hadith seems to be more than the Talmud and Mishna. I am guessing that somewhere in the more than 100,000 tradition additions there may also be a connection to the Kaballah. Could Gematria be part of Hadith?

The Qu'ran seems to be formed largely from the OT or Hebrew Scriptures and Hadith, clearly written by many followers, has been formed from the NT. He fed many with food for one, healed the sick, and spoke in parables, thus making Muhammad another Christ.

Stories of the Gods are passed on from civilization to civilization. Nothing seems to be lost. The characteristics of Marduk can be found in the OT, NT, the Qu'ran, and now in the Hadith. Zarathustra and the Mazda are here also as are the concepts of Hillel. History simply cumulates ideas providing a collection upon which one can draw if one wishes to improve upon a religion or something new is required.

Fifi le Beau
December 28, 2004 - 09:14 pm
The many links given here have occasionally mentioned a "Messiah' in Islam. With Durants latest writing posted by Robby, it mentions the many verses taken from the New Testament and Christian writings that have been incorporated into Islamic text. I am not surprised that they too are awaiting a 'Messiah', since the Jews still await theirs and the Christians already have theirs but await his return.

The Islamic messiah is 'Mahdi' and they have taken from Christian writing the story, but with a different twist. If there is a vacancy, it will be filled. Many have already tried, and died in the process.

At the beginning of every Islamic century it seems someone claiming to be the Mahdi appears. The Sudanese Mahdi, who died shortly after his historic capture of Khartoum from General Gordon in 1885, cited as credentials his own first name, a mole on his cheek, a gap between his teeth and his emergence at the beginning of the fourteenth Islamic century.

In 1979, one hundred Islamic years later, the Mahdi in whose name the Grand Mosque in Mecca was captured and who sought, in God's name, to take control of the Kingdom of Arabia's twentieth-century destiny, laid claim to a slightly different set of stigmata: Muhammad Abdullah al Qahtani had the correct first name, his mother claimed descent from the Prophet, he manifested himself near the beginning of a new Islamic century-and his manifestation was marked by violence.

Qahtani and 62 of his followers were beheaded in the town square in public. That of course will not end the appearance of other 'Mahdi', as with all three of the religions that came out of this area of the middle east, all are expecting a savior to give them control of the world.

Here is an Islamic site with their view.

The Mahdi

Fifi

Malryn (Mal)
December 28, 2004 - 09:37 pm

Prophecies about the Imam Mahdi

robert b. iadeluca
December 29, 2004 - 03:42 am
"Prayer had to be preceded by purification.

"As prayer was required of the Moslem five times a day, cleanliness came literally next to godliness. Mohammed, like Moses, used religion as a means to hygiene as well as to morality, on the general principle that the rational can secure popular acceptance only in the form of the mystical.

"He warned that the prayer of an unclean person would not be heard by God. He even thought of making the brushing of the teeth a prerequisite to prayer but finally he compromised on the washing of the face, the hands, and the feet (v.6)

"A man who had had sexual relations, a woman who had menstruated, or given birth, since the last purification, must bathe before prayer. At dawn, shortly after midday, in late afternoon, at sunset, and at bedtime the muezzin mounted a minaret to sound the adhan, or call to prayer:-

'Allahu Akbar (God is most great)! Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar! I bear witness that there is no God but Allah. I bear witness that there is no God but Allah. I bear witness that there is no God but Allah. I bear witness that Mohamnmed is the Apostle of Allah. I bear witness that Mohammed is the Apostle of Allah. I bear witness that Mohammed is the Apostle of Allah. Come to prayer! Come to prayer! Come to prayer! Come to success! Come to success! Come to success! Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar! There is no God but Allah!'

"It is a powerful appeal, a noble summons to rise with the sun, a welcome interruption in the hot work of the day, a solemn message of divine majesty in the stillness of the night. Grateful even to alien ears is this strange shrill chant of many muezzins from divers mosques calling the earthbound soul to a moment's communion with the mysterious source of life and mind. On those five occasions all Moslems everywhere must leave off whatever else they may be doing, must cleanse themselvs, turn toward Mecca and the Kaaba and recite the same brief prayers -- in the same successive postures -- in an impressive simultaneity moving with the sun across the earth."

Repetition. Repetition. Repetition. It is the secret of impressing a thought on both the conscious and subconscious mind. It is the secret of arriving at a hypnotic trance. As Durant says, it is powerful.

Christians, also, use repetition. I remember, as one raised in the Presbyterian church, the Doxology being stated Sunday after Sunday. Other religions have their repetitive declarations and songs. But once a week is a drop in the bucket compared to 35 times weekly -- not to mention the prerequisite additional repetitive washing.

And once again the realization by that psychologist Mohammed that "the rational is accepted by the people only in the form of the mystical." I see mainstream religions fading away in the Western culture but I also see numerous new cults springing up.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 29, 2004 - 04:54 am
Click HERE to see a very interesting (I think) detailed article on the topic of Repetition. You might see a relationship between what is described here and Mohammed's directives.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 29, 2004 - 05:01 am
This link tells of RITUAL PURIFICATION in many religions.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
December 29, 2004 - 05:42 am

Victims of the South Asia earthquake and tsunami have been taken into Hindu and Buddhist temples and Islamic mosques. I found names of people, living and dead, at a Phuket Hospital site, as well as eyewitness reports by people affected.

Physics of Tsunami. Would you like to know more about tsunami?

I wonder how many religions are going to say what happened in South Asia is an act of God? BUBBLE posted in WREX that some orthodox people in her area are saying an earthquake could happen there, and people should pray and reform.

Mal

Bubble
December 29, 2004 - 01:29 pm
Robby, I don't have the URL for that article and the friend who forwarded it to me can't remember in what local daily she read it.

My puter is "in hospital" for repair and I cannot access my mail from this puter. Could I leave it to you to link the text here? Thanks.

I hope to be back operational soon. Bubble

Shasta Sills
December 29, 2004 - 04:26 pm
Well, here is something else I didn't know! The Muslims are waiting for a messiah. I just assumed they considered Mohammed their messiah. Why do they need another one?

I was also fascinated by the ritual of praying five times a day. I knew the Muslims did that, but I didn't know they had to get up at dawn to pray. A person may be sound asleep at dawn, but he has to leap out of the bed, wash his hands, and get down on the floor and pray. And what happens if Muslims are working for non-Muslims and they have to stop work in the afternoon and pray? I'm trying to think what it would have been like in our office if one of our employees suddenly fell to the floor in the afternoon to pray. Maybe they don't have to do it if they are working among heathen.

robert b. iadeluca
December 29, 2004 - 04:34 pm
Shasta, I also thought that Mohammed was the Messiah. I don't understand this.

Robby

Justin
December 29, 2004 - 06:43 pm
I don't understand the expectation either. I thought Mohammud was the last prophet, that there would be no more. Now we come to the Mahdi- a Messiah who has perhaps greater power than prophets-an intermediary between the Prophet and Allah. Mahlia, where are you?

Dalrymple's essay is well worth reading. He says in essense, " Muslims are on the horns of a dilemna. They want the benefits of free inquiry without giving up the restrictions of their religion."

Sunknow
December 29, 2004 - 07:16 pm
I felt that Mohammud DID present himself as the Messiah. Maybe later, the Muslims came to the point of searching for yet another Messiah?

Sun

robert b. iadeluca
December 29, 2004 - 07:47 pm
Perhaps this link about MAHDI may be helpful.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 29, 2004 - 07:55 pm
Here is ADDITIONAL INFO on the subject of Mahdi.

Robby

Sunknow
December 29, 2004 - 08:04 pm
Thanks for the link, Mal.

As it says: "...there are variations..." Indeed.

It more or less confirms what I "thought"....that Mohammed did present himself as the Messiah, or Mahdi. Then he told them he was not, but they continued to believe he was?

Sun

Persian
December 29, 2004 - 08:05 pm
JUSTIN - as I mentioned in an earlier post, I have been dealing with the sudden death on Christms evening of my Uncle and the logistics of family mourning and those surrounding his funeral.

If you type Messiah in Islam into Google, there are numerous sites which will fully explain al-Mahdi and the Islamic teachings on the topic of the Messiah.

SHASTA - it has been my experience in a professional employment settings or school environments that Muslims do not need to "suddenly fall to the floor" to pray. They usually slip away to a private corner and quietly complete their prayers without causing disruption of the daily routine for others.

The dawn prayer is not a burden, but one that is eagerly embraced as it sets the tone for the day ahead. And within a Muslim family, the dawn prayers are usually offered as a family. Physically disabled Muslims (especially the elderly) can pray from whatever position they are in; those who are ill or are traveling do not need to adhere to the strict regimen of prayer five times each day. And those who miss prayers (for whatever reason) aer allowed to make them up later. Muslims who are totally paralyzed and have no voice can pray with their eyes.

Justin
December 29, 2004 - 09:54 pm
Mahlia: Forgive me for intruding on your private time. I had forgotten that you were involved in a family death. I'm sorry.

I think we are beginning to understand the meaning of Mahdi in both Sunni and Shi'i variations of the concept.

robert b. iadeluca
December 30, 2004 - 04:42 am
"Those who had the time and will would go to the mosque to say their prayers. Usually the mosque was open all day. Any Moslem, orthodox or heretic, might enter to make his ablutions, to rest, or to pray. There, too, in the cloistered shade, teachers taught their pupils, judges tried cases, caliphs announced their policies or decrees. People gathered to chat, hear the news, even to negotiate business.

"The mosque, like the synagogue and the church, was the center of daily life -- the home and hearth of the community. Half an hour before Friday noon the muezzin chanted from the minarets the salutation or salaam -- a blessing on Allah, Mohammed, his family, and the great Companions, and called the congregation to the mosque.

"The worshipers were expected to have bathed and put on clean clothes, and to have perfumed themselves. They might perform minor ablutions in the tank or fountain that stood in the courtyard of the mosque. The women usually stayed at home when the men went to the mosque and vice versa. It was feared that the presence of women, even veiled, would distract the excitable male.

"The worshipers removed their shoes at the door of the mosque proper and entered in slippers or stocking feet. There or in the court (if they were numerous) they stood shoulder to shoulder in one or more rows, facing the mihrab or prayer niche in the wall which indicated the qibla or direction of Mecca.

"An imam or prayer leader read a passage from the Koran and preached a short sermon. Each worshiper recited several prayers and in the prescribed postures of bowing, kneeling, and prostration. Mosque meant a place of prostration in prayer.

"Then the imam recited a complex series of salutations, benedictions, and orisons, in which the congregation silently joined. There were no hymns, processions, or sacraments, no collections of pew rents. Religion, being one with the state, was financed from public funds.

"The imam was not a priest but a layman, who continued to earn his living by a secular occupation and was appointed by the mosque warden for a specified period and a small salary to lead the congregation in prayer. There was no priesthood in Islam.

"After the Friday prayers the Moslems were free, if they wished, to engage in work as on any other days. Meanwhile, however, they had known a cleansing hour of elevation above economic and social strife and had unconsciously cemented their community by common ritual."

Here, in our Western culture, it is common to pass churches on weekdays and see empty parking lots, their buildings being occupied only on Sundays, and then often just in the mornings. There are exceptions of course. But we must keep in mind that the mosques in the East, of which we read so much about in the news, are busy places seven days a week -- as Durant says, the center of the community.

I think of the story of Jesus chasing the money changers from the Temple but now realize that this activity was common in the Mid-East.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 30, 2004 - 06:04 am
This link about CAMELS is not directly related to Islam but does tell us what is going on in the Mid-East these days.

Robby

Shasta Sills
December 30, 2004 - 03:43 pm
This is amazing. They are going to use robots to race the camels. The East is more technically-advanced than the West!

I thought it was curious when they listed the qualifications for the Mahdi and said that he would have a slight stutter. Otherwise, he was a replica of Mohammed. Did Mohammed have a stutter? It seems to me that I recall in the Old Testament that Moses complained to God of having some sort of speech defect when God assigned him the job of bringing the Israelites out of Egypt.

Justin
December 30, 2004 - 04:13 pm
We are now celebrating one of the good things about religion (Christmas, Kwaanza, Hannakah) and I think we should not let the holidays go by without recognizing their great benefit to society. So much of what we see in history is concerned with the evils of religions that to pass the good side of it without notice would be sinful. I don't know where the phrase "Peace on Earth" comes from but it seems to be associated with this period of "Good Will toward Men." These phrases are worthy of notice even though they may seem empty phrases in a world at war.

robert b. iadeluca
December 30, 2004 - 05:29 pm
"The second duty of Moslem practice was the giving of alms. Mohammed was almost as critical of the rich as Jesus had been. Some have thought that he began as a social reformer revolted by the contrast between the luxury of the merchant nobles and the poverty of the masses.

<"Apparently his early followers were mostly of humble orgin. One of his first activities in Medina was to establish an annual tax of two and a half per cent on the movable wealth of all citizens for the relief of the poor. Regular officials collected and distributed this revenue. Part of the proceeds was used to build mosques and defray the expenses of government and war. But war in return brought booty that swelled the gifts to the poor.

"Said Omar II:-'Prayer carries us halfway to God, fasting brings us to the door of His palace, almsgiving lets us in.'

"The traditions abound in stories of generous Moslems. Hasan, for example was said to have three times in his life divided his substance with the poor, and twice given away all that he had."

More and more I am coming to believe that class war has existed in every civilization and that religions and their traditions arise from the desire to bring a better life to the poor. Any agreement or disagreement here?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 30, 2004 - 05:34 pm
Here is a detailed explanation of ZAKAH (ALMS), the third pillar of Islam.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 30, 2004 - 05:45 pm
Here is a partial list of CHARITIES IN AMERICA that solicit nationally.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 30, 2004 - 05:52 pm
"And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing."

. . . I Corinthians (Ch. XIII, v. 2)

Fifi le Beau
December 30, 2004 - 07:29 pm
Shasta your statement:

They are going to use robots to race the camels. The East is more technically advanced than the West!

The Swiss are designing and building the robots. Qatar does not create they purchase. Their purchasing power is only possible because of Western technology finding and developing their oil and gas fields.

The story behind the purchase of Swiss robots, is about abusing children.

Persian Gulf Arab monarchies are trying to bring order to the national sport in the face of protests over the trafficking of children from the Asian subcontinent for use as jockeys. The United States State Department and human rights groups have criticized the exploitation of children by traffickers who pay impoverished parents a paltry sum or simply kidnap their victims.

The children, mostly from Bangladesh, Sri Lanka and Pakistan, are then smuggled into the gulf states. They are often starved by employers to keep them light and maximize their racing potential. Mounting camels three times their height, the children, some as young as 6, face the risk of being thrown off and trampled.


The kidnapping, buying, and starving of small children is the story. There have been stories written about the deaths and maimings of these young boys at the hands of Qatari's.

Qatar is one of the richest countries in the world per capita and they being in the business of buying and selling children tells more about who they are as a people, and a slug would be superior in my book, and his slime trail would be more technically advanced.

Fifi

Justin
December 30, 2004 - 07:35 pm
The US post office has put out a stamp commemorating EID. What exactly is EID? Does anyone know?

robert b. iadeluca
December 30, 2004 - 07:41 pm
Justin, here is the ANSWER to your question.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 30, 2004 - 07:48 pm
Here are FURTHER DETAILS about the eid festivals.

Robby

3kings
December 30, 2004 - 09:37 pm
I see that stamp commemorating Muslim EID was issued September 1st 2001. i.e. 10 days prior to 9/11. I wonder if it would have been issued anytime after 9/11/2001 ? (BG)

Robby, ( Your post #385 ) I see you are coming to see a relationship between religion and economics, which Justin and I have often remarked upon.

As there are only 7 hours to go before this part of the world enters 2005, I would like to wish all who come here an enjoyable and prosperous NEW YEAR. ( the prosperous part refers more to health and good fellowship, than to money !! )++ Trevor

Justin
December 30, 2004 - 11:33 pm
To one and all on the other side of the date line, I extend best wishes for a Happy and Healthy New Year.

Malryn (Mal)
December 30, 2004 - 11:50 pm
Earthquakes led 18th century thinkers to ask questions we shy away from

Annie3
December 30, 2004 - 11:53 pm
Read about this discussion in the newsletter and I'd like to 'audit' so I can learn.

robert b. iadeluca
December 31, 2004 - 04:06 am
Annie3 (or Anna - how would you like us to address you?):-We are so pleased to have you here! I went to your web site, read about you, and read the beautiful poem you wrote. Go visit her page, folks. Anna is an intriguing person and I am sure will fit in nicely here as she gets to know us and we get to know her.

Although we use the Internet term "lurker" here, I like your term "audit" so long as you realize that we are not a class. There is no teacher in this forum. Please don't audit too long but start giving us your thoughts. We are all learning together and, in the process, are having a lot of fun.

We have just two ground rules -- first, showing respect and courtesy toward each other and two, no proselytizing our own religion or commenting on the other's. While we do occasionally compare what we are learning about Medieval times with what is happening in our era, we refrain from mentioning current figures in the public eye so as not to allow ourselves to turn into a political discussion.

Once again -- WELCOME!

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 31, 2004 - 04:58 am
Following Trevor's post #393 in which he referred to my post of #385, here is an ARTICLE from this morning's NY Times about class uprisings.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 31, 2004 - 05:17 am
"The third duty in Islam was fasting.

"In general the Moslem was commanded to avoid wine, carrion, blood, and the flesh of swine or dogs. But Mohammed was more lenient than Moses. Forbidden foods might be eaten in cases of necessity. Of a tasty cheese containing some prohibited meat, he only asked with his sly humor:-'Mention the name of Allah over it.'

"He frowned on asceticism and condemned monasticism (vii, 27). Mohammedans were to enjoy the pleasurs of life with a good conscience but in moderation. Nevertheless, Islam, like most religions, required certain fasts, partly as a discipline of the will, partly, we may presume, as hygiene.

"A few months after settling in Medina he saw the Jews keeping their annual fast of Yom Kippur. He adopted it for his followers, hoping to win the Jews to Islam. When this hope faded he transferred the fast to the month of Ramadan.

"For twenty-nine days the Moslem was to abstain, during the daylight hours, from eating, drinking, smoking, or contact with the other sex. Exceptions were made for the sick, the weary traveler, the very young or old, and women with child or giving suck.

"When first decreed, the month of fasting fell in winter, when daylight came late and ended soon. But as the lunar calendar of the Moslems made the year shorter than the four seasons, Ramadan, every thirty-three years, fell in midsummer, when the days are long and the Eastern heat makes thirst a torture. Yet the good Moslem bore the fast.

"Each night, however, the feast was broken, and the Moslem might eat, drink, smoke, and make love until the dawn. Stores and shops remained open all those nights, inviting the populace to feasting and merriment.

"The poor worked as usual during the month of fast. The well-to-do could ease their way through it by sleeping during the day. Very pious persons spent the last ten nights of Ramadan in the mosque. On one of those nights, it was believed, Allah began to reveal the Koran to Mohammed. That night was accounted 'better than a thousand months' and simple devotees, uncertain which of the ten was the 'Night of the Divine Decree' kept all ten with dire solemnity.

"On the first day after Ramadan the Moslems celebrated the festival of Id al-Fitr or 'Breaking of the Fast.' They bathed, put on new clothes, saluted one another with an embrace, gave alms and presents, and visited the graves of their dead."

So Ramadan stems from Yom Kippur.

Robby

Bubble
December 31, 2004 - 05:56 am
We are an inspiration, we people of the Book!

robert b. iadeluca
December 31, 2004 - 06:06 am
Here is an EXPLANATION OF YOM KIPPUR.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
December 31, 2004 - 07:24 am
Annie3, who has the lovely gardening home pages, is not Annafair who wrote the poem on the first page. Welcome to the Story of Civilization discussion, Annie3. We're happy to see you here!

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
December 31, 2004 - 07:41 am
"In early Christian times, ivory was thought to sweat when it came into contact with poison, which made it popular for drinking vessels among the ruling classes. Muslims, believing that it stanched the flow of blood, favored it for knife handles and sword hilts. The Romans used it for dentures."

Stories of man carved in detail through the ages

JoanK
December 31, 2004 - 10:56 am
Wonderful, Mal. Be sure to scroll down a little and click on the Multi-media slide show: Ivory at the Metropolitan on the right.

I know so little about ivory -- I assumed it would always be white. But these are all golden -- the effect of aging?

Welcome ANNIE3. Don't feel you have to read all the past posts to catch up -- you'll be overwhelmed. Just jump right in.

moxiect
December 31, 2004 - 11:09 am


Welcome Annie3

Please visit http://www.ma-ried.org

robert b. iadeluca
December 31, 2004 - 01:04 pm
Thank you for that lovely greeting, Moxie!!

Robby

Justin
December 31, 2004 - 02:32 pm
Robby's right Annie. You belong here. Welcome.

robert b. iadeluca
December 31, 2004 - 04:12 pm
"Pilgrimage to Mecca was the fourth duty of Moslem faith.

"Pilgrimage to holy places was traditional in the East. The Jew lived in hopes of one day seeing Zion. Pious pagan Arabs, long before Mohammed, had trekked to the Kaaba. Mohammed accepted the old custom because he knew that ritual is less easily changed than belief -- perhaps because he himself hankered after the Black Stone. By yielding to the old rite he opened a wide door to the acceptance of Islam by all Arabia.

"The Kaaba, purified of its idols, became for all Moslems the house of God. Upon every Mohammedan the obligation was laid (with considerate exceptions for the ailing and the poor) to make the Mecca pilgrimage 'as often as he can' -- which was soon interpreted as meaning once in a lifetime.

"As Islam spread to distant lands, only a minority of Moslems performed the pilgrimage. Even in Mecca there are Moslems who have never made a ritual visit to the Kaaba."

Ritual is less easily changed than belief?

Robby

Annie3
December 31, 2004 - 05:39 pm
I have enjoyed the posts so far and am anxious to learn. I truly wish I could take that credit for that beautiful, beautiful poem on my web site but it was written by the wonderful poet Annafair who is also a member of Seniornet. I asked for and got her permission to post that to my web page. I read it often.

Persian
December 31, 2004 - 09:17 pm
I'm just slipping in to wish everyone a most joyous New Year. I've enjoyed the discussion so very much and look forward to continuing next year.

Mahlia

JoanK
December 31, 2004 - 09:19 pm
MAHLIA: we all wish you and your family the best in this difficult time.

robert b. iadeluca
December 31, 2004 - 10:26 pm
In the three years or so we have been in this discussion, we have become a "family." My wish is that we continue this coming year with the same warm feelings we have for each other.

Robby

Justin
December 31, 2004 - 11:07 pm
HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYONE. Isn't it nice to be alive in 2005? My wish is that the coming year will be a big improvement over 2004 for each of us.

robert b. iadeluca
December 31, 2004 - 11:18 pm
Despite our warm wishes for each other regarding the future, this ARTICLE from today's NY Times gives us pause to think. Those of us here who have examined various civilizations beginning with Primitive Man and Sumeria may wonder what is going to happen to us. Part of our Heading above asks:-"Where are we headed?"

Some of us have in previous postings commented on the continuance of class differences in almost every civilization. According to this author:- "A society contains a built-in blueprint for failure if the elite insulates itself from the consequences of its actions." He adds that:-"History warns us that when once-powerful societies collapse, they tend to do so quickly and unexpectedly."

Robby

JoanK
January 1, 2005 - 12:25 am
Very interesting. I read his book, "Guns, Germs and Steel" and found it fascinating. He doesn't always prove his theses, but even when he doesn't, he makes you really think.

Éloïse De Pelteau
January 1, 2005 - 08:02 am
HAPPY NEW YEAR TO EVERYONE.


Year 2004 has been good for me in many ways and I feel surrounded by loved ones. My large family comes at Christmas almost every year and in spite of the distance that separates us, when we get together it feels like if we all live close to each other. It was wonderful to see 5 of my 6 children and 9 of my 10 grand children this Christmas and it looks like everyone is doing well. My son is still here until the 5th of January when he goes back home to Switzerland. We toasted the arrival of year 2005 last night with a glass of champagne, it was a first for me.

When I look at the news, I realize that I am a very fortunate woman when compared with others in the world and I am thankful for that.

I pray that 2005 will bring Peace on Earth and less natural disasters where millions are dead or missing in South East Asia. My heart is breaking for the people affected by the tsunami.

Let us be grateful for our safety wherever we are.

Scrawler
January 1, 2005 - 12:51 pm
Wishing all of you Peace and Harmony throughout the coming year.

Fifi le Beau
January 1, 2005 - 03:40 pm




Happy New Year Everyone


Fifi

Hairy
January 1, 2005 - 06:26 pm
It seems many are not saying "Happy New Year" this year, but would rather express hopes for a better year than the last one. The world needs it.Seems like the road to civilization doubles back sometimes. It's so nice to see all the familiar names here. When I got onto Senior Net tonight, I knew exactly where I wanted to go --- right here!

I can't tell you how glad I am to be here!

Linda (Hairy)

Justin
January 1, 2005 - 06:55 pm
Diamond asks a question that has been troubling me for some 30 years and while I have been articulating it for much of that time I often think few people are listening. It's a simple question; How long can America remain ascendant? Have we already reached a peak and if so when was it? What is the evidence of decline?

Diamond examines history and finds five groups of interacting factors that cause societies to decline and in some cases to disapear altogether: Damage inflicted by the people on their environment; Climate change; Enemies; Changes in friendly trading partners; and society's political, economic, and social responses to these shifts.

These factors are so significant in the decline of civilizations that I suggest we place them in our heading so we may be ever conscious of them as contributing to the rise and fall of societies. The elements Durant has used to guide his writing are useful to us in following his message but these factors contributing to decline should serve us well in our examination of the Story of Civilization.

Are there more factors than those Diamond has identified contributing to societal decline or has Diamond exhausted the list of major elements?

robert b. iadeluca
January 1, 2005 - 07:20 pm
Linda!! It's so good to see you again! Where have you been? Let us hear more from you as we move through the Islamic scene.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
January 1, 2005 - 07:26 pm
Justin:-Our Heading is overloaded now and I am constantly trying to lessen the space it takes but, as you suggest, keeping these five items in mind may help us to see in what direction we are going, not only in the Western world but around the globe.

1 - Environmental destruction.
2 - Climate change.
3 - Enemies.
4 - Changes in friendly trading partners.
5 - Response to these shifts.

Robby

Traude S
January 1, 2005 - 10:13 pm
ROBBY, I am in the process of catching up with the posts after the last hectic days.

Would you please indicate the title of the NYT article? I cannot access the link. Though I am duly registered, my NYT IDs are not being recognized. The title might help. Thank you.

Hello LINDA ! What a pleasure to see you again!

ROBBY, I'm not sure about class warfare, but in my own experience class differences were always there, smoldering close to the surface. One was brought up with the awareness of them.

In Europe (where they have been back to kissing hands again for some time) class differences are more prevalent and visible now than ever before. Academic titles and those of even the minor nobility are Very Important again. And yes, in Italy too, where "Dottore", "Commendatore", "Ingegnere" and such are used as an address in conversation, as in, "Dottore, what is your opinion on such and such?"

In this country, money - both old and new - is still THE standard. To me, often annoyingly so. It mercifully covers all sins; it can buy things that are not even (or should not be) for sale.

And yet, underneath it all, I believe, class differences lurk: the birthright of the (really not soooo) old families and their descendants. That, forgive me for saying so, has always struck me as incongruous and irreconcilable with the principles of egalitarianism.

JoanK
January 1, 2005 - 11:03 pm
Yes, Traude, you are right. But "old money" keeps itself inconspicuous, so we are not as aware of it. These are the houses with the high hedges or walls around them, so you are hardly aware there is anything there.

robert b. iadeluca
January 2, 2005 - 05:32 am
Traude:-The title of the NY Times article is "The End of the World as We Know Them" by Jared Diamond. And yes, you may now address me as Doctor Iadeluca. If I see you at a Senior Net gathering, I will kiss your hand. (But don't tell anyone my family suffered during the depression and that I got my baccalaureate through the GI Bill.)

Joan:-We have those high hedges right here in the Warrenton, Virginia area. Families whose ancestors lived in this very same place since the 17th century and who own huge tracts of land which they are now selling off slowly to Walmart, etc.

As you say, Traude, the past few days have been hectic for some people and some of our usual posters have been away from the computer. Shall we get back to answering the three questions in the Heading? We were discussing The Faith and traditions of Islam. We were specifically listening to Durant describing the four duties of Moslem practice -- prayer, alms, fasting, and pilgrimmage.

Durant told us about them in detail. Any comments?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
January 2, 2005 - 06:39 am
In Post #420 Justin emphasizes the five factors in Diamond's article which he says leads to the decline of societies. I listed them in Post #422.

Now - in specific reference to Reason #1 read this ARTICLE from this morning's NY Times.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
January 2, 2005 - 08:29 am

Doesn't anyone besides me think of the Great Flood in the Bible? We have read that a huge flood was mentioned in other ancient writings.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
January 2, 2005 - 09:33 am
Here is some info on ENVIRONMENTAL DISASTERS.

Robby

Persian
January 2, 2005 - 09:43 am
Yes, MAL, otehrs do recall the flood mentioned in the Bible. During the past week, I have talked to friends in Russia, Azerbaijan, China and Northern India. ALL wondered whether the tsunamis in Southeast Asia were forewarnings of even greater catastrophes. I also spoke with my husband in Egypt, who mentiuoned that several of his university students wondered if the carryover devastation in Southern Africa was "a punishment from God" - another plague.

Scrawler
January 2, 2005 - 11:22 am
While checking out the top ten National Geographic News stories of 2004, I came across this one about global warming from April 26, 2004.

"Most scientists agree that global warming presents the greatest threat to the environment. If our planet's ice caps and glaciers continue to melt, the sea level will rise and submerge vast territories, from entire countries to large parts of the United States." http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004

Maybe the fact that civilization will succeed or not will be taken out of our hands and nature will control what happens to us.

robert b. iadeluca
January 2, 2005 - 12:41 pm
The tsumani is, of course, the big news but we have a choice to make. Shall we continue talking about environmental disasters or shall we return to the Durant text? What is your wish?

Robby

JoanK
January 2, 2005 - 01:11 pm
The articles cited shows there is a connection. Natural (and social) upheavals seem to be followed by religious upheavals, as people question there old faiths and/or feel need for new ones. Going back to the rise of Islam, it seemed to me as we read that part that Mohammad in a sense "translated" the religions of Judaism and Christianity so that they filled the needs and fitted the culture of the people where he lived. I don't remember if Durant talked much about what those needs were, but the response shows that they were there. Perhaps just of a powerful, unifying religion that was theirs, not that of a foreign power, and gave them strength against others? A sense of worth in their poverty?

We hear that people in Africa are converting to Islam at a great rate. Does anyone know more about this?

robert b. iadeluca
January 2, 2005 - 01:19 pm
Joan:-Yes, I agree. Many of the side-topics we talk about are related to The Age of Faith. As a matter of fact, I was the one who posted the links to the articles. Sooner or later, however, we need to get back to the text. What do you participants want to do?

Robby

3kings
January 2, 2005 - 01:37 pm
I suggest we carry on just as we are doing; i.e relating events of the past, and placing them alongside events of the present. Doing this, we will at times wander from mentioning Durant explicitly, but we will return to his writings. ( Especially when our moderator requests us to. )BG. ++ Trevor

robert b. iadeluca
January 2, 2005 - 03:33 pm
Eloise: I received my training from a group of lemmings.

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
January 2, 2005 - 03:36 pm
Robby

I deleted both posts because I mistyped the html tags, but I will try again. By-the-way what do you mean by "lemmings"? I didn't get that far in school.

Malryn (Mal)
January 2, 2005 - 03:47 pm
lemming (lèm´îng) noun

Any of various small, thickset rodents, especially of the genus Lemmus, inhabiting northern regions and known for periodic mass migrations that sometimes end in drowning.

[Norwegian.]

Justin
January 2, 2005 - 03:55 pm
Reading Mahlia's posting about university students in Egypt who wonder if the Tsunami were God's punishment and also a precursor of worse to come, makes me realize that superstition will always be with us. Fortunately, a few clear, scientific heads will try to grasp the dimensions and the cause of the Tsunami.

It is nice to think that Sumatran Wahabi may lessen its grip on the people of that island because the old gods are not strong enough to ward off natural cataclysms but I think the mullahs will convince the people they are being punished for past misdeeds, for failure to pray, or for allowing women to appear in public without the chaderi.

tigerliley
January 2, 2005 - 04:57 pm
A piece in the N.Y. Times today suggests that there will be more and more devastation as people tend to build on the oceans edge.......we need look no further than the U.S.....not just the ocean but people love the water and continue to build in flood plains on the rivers. I neglected to mention the increasing populations who do so.......interesting articles concerning the event...... Interesting to note that most of the people effected are Muslim and there has been a huge outpouring of love, concern, and aide from all regions of the world...

robert b. iadeluca
January 2, 2005 - 05:18 pm
Tigerliley!! Wonderful to see your comments again! Please continue to share your thoughts.

Robby

Justin
January 2, 2005 - 07:31 pm
Tiger: Welcome. That's a brilliant observation. Indonesia must be eighty percent Muslim, maybe more, and here the devil, the hated western world, is pouring out it's aide in this moment of disaster. It is certainly a better way to deal with terrorism than war in Iraq.

Fifi le Beau
January 2, 2005 - 07:51 pm
Robby asked for comments on Islamic prayer, alms, fasting, and pilgrimage.

The muslim's way of praying was copied from the Jews, who at one time also prostrated themselves with their heads touching the ground.

The giving of alms was also copied from Judaism. The two and half percent is low compared to the Christian tithe, which is ten percent.

Fasting the Islamic way, does not seem like fasting at all. They simply turn night into day. If you can eat, drink, and do all the things at night that you normally do during the day, that is not fasting to me.

I could say that I fast every day by not eating and drinking at all during the night up until mid morning when I may have a snack. Fasting to me is no food be it day or night.

The pilgrimage was instituted by Mohammed because in Mecca the Ka'aba was a very lucrative business long before Islam came along, and in order to get the Meccans to accept Islam he saw that keeping the pagan place of worship would make him and his teaching more acceptable to them. He even kept the name of the main idol, Allah.

I read on one of the links here that the Shi'ite do not use the word Allah when they say the greeting. The Sunni say and I paraphrase, There is no God but Allah. The Shi'ite say, There is no God but God. I looked back a little way, but did not find the link where I read this. Does anyone know if this is true?

Fifi

robert b. iadeluca
January 3, 2005 - 04:50 am
As Fifi has brought us back to the latest sub-topic by Durant, I will continue with his text. Obviously with all the activites in the East and Mid-East, we will occasionally have relevant links but in the interest of continuity let us follow Durant as we have been doing.

"Doughty has described, beyond all rivalry, the panorama of the pilgrimage caravan moving with fantastic patience across the desert, caught between the hot fury of the sun and the swirling fire of the sands. Some 7000 believers, less or more, on foot or horse or donkey or mule or lordly palanquin, but most tossed along between the humps of camels, 'bowing at each long stalking pace, making fifty prostrations every minute, whether we would or no, toward Mecca', covering thirty miles in a weary day, sometimes fifty to reach an oasis. Many pilgrims sickening and left behind; some dying and abandoned to lurking hyenas or a slower death.

"At Medina the pilgrims halted to view the tombs of Mohammed, Abu Bekr, and Omar I in the mosque of the Prophet. Near those sepulchers, says a popular tradition, a space is reserved for Jesus the son of Miriam.

"Sighting Mecca, the caravan pitched its camp outside the walls, for the whole city was haram, sacred. The pilgrims bathed, dressed in seamless robes of white, and rode or walked in a line many miles long, over dusty roads, to seek living quarters in the town.

"During their stay in Mecca they were required to abstain from all disputes, from sexual relations, and from any sinful act. In the months specially ordained for pilgrimage the Holy City became a babbling concourse of tribes and races, suddenly doffing nationality and rank in the unanimity of ritual and prayer.

"Into the great enclosure called the Mosque of Mecca these thousands hurried in tense anticipation of a supreme experience. They hardly noted the elegant minarets of the wall, or the arcades and colonnades of the cloistered interior. But all stopped in awe at the well of Zemzem, whose water, said trdition, had slaked the thirst of Ishmael. Every pilgrim drank of it, however bitter its taste, however urgent its effects. Some bottled it to take home, to sip its saving sanctity daily, and in the hour of death.

"At last the worshipers, all eyes and no breath, came near the center of the enclosure to the Kaaba iself, a miniature temple illuminated within by silver hanging lamps, its outer wall half draped with a curtain of rich and delicate cloth. In a corner of it the ineffable Black Stone.

"Seven times the pilgrims walked around the Kaaba and kissed or touched or bowed to the Stone. (Such circumambulation of a sacred object -- a fire, tree, or maybe pole, an altar of the Temple at Jerusalem -- was an old religious ritual.)

"Many pilgrims, exhausted and yet sleepless with devotion, passed the night in the enclosure, squatting on their rugs, conversing and praying, and contemplating in wonder and ecstasy the goal of their ilgrimage."

So much to absorb and discuss here! Your comments, please?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
January 3, 2005 - 03:08 pm
The Hajj. Pilgrimage to Mecca

Shasta Sills
January 3, 2005 - 03:10 pm
It's true that Christians are supposed to give 10% of their income to the church, but among the Christians I grew up with, almost nobody did. Maybe our area was too poor to give up this much of their income. Religion in theory usually sounds a lot more ideal than it is in actual practice. But maybe the Muslims actually practice what they preach more than Christians do, I don't know. These pilgrimages certainly sound like genuine dedication.

Fifi le Beau
January 3, 2005 - 04:05 pm
Durant's description of the hajj was taken from Charles Doughtys "Travels in Arabia" that was published in 1923. By that time the British had appeared in Arabia and had begun to write about life there. An earlier report in 1907 set the number of pilgrims at 120,000.

The number of pilgrims has grown unmanageable to the Saudis who govern the sites of pilgrimage. Last year they put a limit on the number who could come from each country. I don't know how they decide who will be chosen, perhaps by early application or lottery.

The hajj has always been a time when those who have a grievance, show their colors. There have been pitched battles between the Shi'ite and Sunni. There are many differences in Islam. Each country seems to have a different history of events and it is their own history that becomes custom, regardless of what others say or think.

In a recent travelogue on Afghanistan, I learned that the Afghanis say that Imam Ali is not buried beneath the golden dome in Najaf, in southern Iraq, as we have been told. After he was killed, according to the local story, he was embalmed placed on the back of a white female camel, and the beast cantered until it dropped in Mazar-i-Sharif in northern Afghanistan. The shrine is still there, and President Karzai went and unfurled Ali's green flag at the New Year on the spot where the Afghans say Ali is buried.

Here is a BBC link from last years hajj discussing the problems.

Pilgrims trampled to death

Fifi

Justin
January 3, 2005 - 04:58 pm
The imagery of the pilgrimage caravan, making thirty to fifty miles per day and bowing every stalking pace and making fifty prostrations every minute with people left behind to feed the hyenas, is bizarre.

It reminds me of the imagery of the Bataan Death March except the Muslims are driven by their own will to reach a place of symbolic significance.

There are penitants in Italy who scourge themselves till bloody during Lent. Thousands stand in all weather at Lourdes waiting to approach the Grotto. There is a church in Montreal, near St. Anne de Beaupre Cathedral, that houses a set of stairs which the penitent mounts on his knees.

It is pitiful, this need to rid oneself of sin through pain. Man made the rules.Disobedience is the sin and the pain of absolution is intense and self inflicted. In my judgement the men who made the rules have committed the greatest sin. They created guilt.

Fifi le Beau
January 3, 2005 - 08:30 pm
The muslims do not believe in original sin. It is a foreign concept to them, as it is to me. They seem less driven by sin and guilt than the worship of shrines.

A shrine is tangible where a god is not. They can see and touch a shrine and give it magical powers, like the black stone at the Ka'aba. The muslim seems much more influenced by the experience of the Ka'aba with its black stone than with any thought of sin.

The Arab fleecing of the pilgrims seems to show little thought toward what Christians would think of as a sin. They robbed them on the desert and roads into Mecca, and once there they continued to take whatever anyone had left with no thought of sin in doing so.

The hajj has always been a dangerous journey, and the death toll reported by the Saudis is low according to some who were there. The Saudis are extremely conscious of their position as keepers of the muslim 'shrines', and they have been known to put a complete blackout on media to only let the world know what they want to tell them, and the truth is always the first victim.

The only sin that the muslims deem important as far as I can see, is not being a muslim. Murder, rape, felony abuse of children and women, stealing, lying, coveting you neighbors wife and even you sons, all seem inconsequential if you accept the Islamic myth.

In their sphere everyone must be muslim, and the proof of that is the murder, theft of goods, and expulsion from lands they control of people of other religions and ideas.

According to all the writers I have read the Arabs have no concept of sin as Christians would define it. They feel no guilt either over their lifestyle and customs, which Christians would call sin, and I would call a crime against humanity.

Fifi

Malryn (Mal)
January 3, 2005 - 08:45 pm

I don't know if this is pertinent to this discussion, but it certainly is interesting.

Scientists answer the question: What do you believe is true, even though you can't prove it?

Justin
January 3, 2005 - 10:20 pm
I may be mistaken but I think sin to a Muslim is failure to follow ritual. Drinking alcohol, not responding to the muezzin when he calls, failure to pray five times a day or to prostrate oneself at the appointed hour etc. This kind of sin is common to religions. Failure to attend Mass at the appropriate time without valid excuse is a mortal sin in one Christian sect. I read somewhere in one of our recent links that Muslims who make the Hajj will be absolved of all sins acquired thus far in their lives.

robert b. iadeluca
January 4, 2005 - 12:09 am
Here is an ARTICLE demonstrating the attitude of certain Muslims to others.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
January 4, 2005 - 04:20 am
"On the second day the pilgrims, to commemorate Hagar's frantic search for water for her son, ran seven times between the hills, Safa and Marwa, that lay outside the city.

"On the seventh day those who wished to make the 'major pilgrimage' streamed out to Mt. Arafat -- six hours' journey distant -- and heard a three-hour sermon. Returning halfway, they spent a might in prayer at the oratory of Muzdalifa.

"On the eighth day they rushed to the valley of Mina and threw seven stones at three marks or pillars, for so, they believed, Abraham had cast stones at Satan when the Devil interrupted his preparations for slaying his son.

On the tenth day they sacrificed a sheep, a camel, and some other horned animal, ate the meat and distributed alms. This ceremony, commemorating similar sacrifices by Mohammed, was the central rite of the pilgrimage. This 'Festival of Sacrifice' was celebrated with like offerings to Allah, by Moslems all over the world on the tenth day of the pilgrimage period.

"The pilgrims now shaved their heads, paired their nails, and buried the cuttings. This completed the Major Pilgrimage.

"Usually the worshiper paid another visit to the Kaaba before he returned to the caravan camp. Here he resumed his profane condition and clothing and began with proud and comfortd spirit the long march back home."

How strong is tradition!

Robby

Bubble
January 4, 2005 - 08:07 am
I thought that those who completed the Hadj at Mecca were recognized by their clothing.- all white if I remember it right.

Justin
January 4, 2005 - 05:22 pm
It looks as though the Charity pillar has crumbled in the face of a natural disaster that was in truth a punishment for harlots and other unsavory unbelievers who inhabited the areas hit by the Tsunami. No matter that 80% of Indonesia is Muslim. It's those tourists who are the sinners.

Fifi le Beau
January 4, 2005 - 06:24 pm
Bubble, I have a book that has pictures of three of the ruling family of Saudi Arabia at the hajj, There are others in the pictures, and indeed all have on white. Though the rulers are completely covered from the neck down, some of the other pilgrims have on a sari like wrap where one shoulder and arm are completely exposed.

We are so used to seeing the Arabs with their head coverings that to see them bareheaded is a shock. After seeing the present King Fahad and the acting ruler since Fahad's stroke, Prince Abdullah, with nothing covering the head and part of the face, it's enough to call for the burka for men.

Another interesting sidelight for you regarding the 'People of the Book'. The early croniclers of the Afghans claimed they were the descendants of King Saul and true survivors of the Babylonian captivity. The claim was examined and disputed by a British member of the East India Company in 1815, but resurfaced in the Encyclopaedia Britannica in 1910. They say the claim does not hold up, but that the prevailing type of the Afghan physiognomy has a character strongly Jewish.

The Middle East and the Jews present a paradox. The Jews are the most maligned, and yet the most envied and copied of all the tribes.

Fifi

Persian
January 4, 2005 - 07:12 pm
Many of the Afghans whom I've known personally and worked with periodically speak quite knowledgeably of their ancient Jewish heritage. Some are more inclined to base their remarks on family lore, while others are confident that they are indeed descendents of the ancient tribes and speak at length and in great detail about their history.

RE the Hajj - when my husband made the Pilgrimage some years ago, he prepared for more than 3 years before he felt "spiritually cleansed" and ready to undertake what is often a once-in-a-lifetime venture for Muslims. (His father before him had undergone a similar multi-year preparation). He speaks of the experience as "humbling"; a grand renewal of his faith and trust in Allah; and an opportunity to be among Muslims from many lands and of various socio-economic backgrounds, all gathered together for the same reason.

Fifi le Beau
January 4, 2005 - 09:16 pm
Mahlia, actually the encyclopedia says that the 'Pashtun' ethnic Afghans are really of Persian origin.

Of course there were once Jews in Afghanistan, as there was in every other country of the world. The middle east including Afghanistan have ethnically cleansed their countries of the Jews. Their loss has been others gain.

I cannot imagine the Jews living in that illiterate, backward country full of Iranian Pashtuns and not have at least one decent dry goods store. The Jews have long since moved on, and what is left is Iranian in ethnicity.

Afghan origin is Iran

Fifi

Justin
January 4, 2005 - 10:36 pm
Mahlia: I am reading "Caravans" as you recommended. I realize that fiction is not a good source for accuracy but at one point in the story ( which is about an American in Afghanistan -pre9/11)an American State dept. official admits to a Kochis leader of nomads that he is Jewish. The leader, who is Muslim, compares noses with him and says roughly, I am the real Jew here. We are of the lost tribe. It's a good book to read if you are interested in Islam and the Middle East.The story line is trivial but Michener makes up for that with descriptions of the land and the people.

Justin
January 4, 2005 - 10:45 pm
Mahlia: How far do these pilgrims walk? Is the pilgrimage just from Medina to Mecca and around the Kaaba or do they walk farther?Where does the Pilgrimage begin for a pilgrim? I can't imagine walking in the hot sand of Saudi Arabia in sandals or bare feet for great distances.

Persian
January 5, 2005 - 12:15 am
JUSTIN - here is a link which describes the preparations for the Hajj and the specific rituals which are part of the overall pilgrimage. The rituals are often grueling (especially as you note in the hot weather) and some people do become ill. But there are stations and aides to take care of them until they are ready to resume. The commitment to participate in the Hajj is not done lightly and often individuals prepare themselves for several years before undertaking the journey. Yet I have never heard anyone say that their lives were not changed in enormously positive ways once they completed the pilgrimage.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/customs/hajj/guide.shtml

FIFI - Indeed there are many Persians in Afghanistan, especially along the Western border near Herat. Yet their apperance is quite different from that of the Pashtuns. Years ago, before the onslaught of the conflicts throughout the country, there were some wonderful dry goods shops in the large bazaars in Kabul and Kandahar. I never inquried if the owners were Jewish, but they certainly might have been. And during that same period, there were eager students at the University in Kabul - many of whom immigrated to Europe and North America to continue their studies. When I visited, women were well dressed, unveiled and eager to learn and establish themselves professiosnally. Generally unknown to the West, there are many female doctors, engineers and teachers hiden under the blue chaderi, so often pictured in the news.

robert b. iadeluca
January 5, 2005 - 03:20 am
All this exchange about the geneological relationship between the Jews and the Arabs leads one to the commonly expressed question as to why they are constantly fighting each other. Is it a tribe against tribe? Is the Palestinian conflict one of territory?

Robby

Bubble
January 5, 2005 - 07:09 am
It is like the Isaac and Ismael conflict, it is Esau confronted to Jacob. It is fraternal feud...

Persian
January 5, 2005 - 10:26 pm
Good response, BUBBLE, and in the fraternal feud, land is ALWAYS a major issue, just as it continues to be in Lebanon; in Iraq between the Kurds in the North and the Sunni Arabs and Shi'a (many of Persian heritage) in the South; in Turkey and Iran between the Kurds, Azeris and Persians; and between the Pashtuns and Hazars in Afghanistan (many of the latter - especially women and children - now forced to live in the caves near Bamian after being ravaged by the Taliban and still frowned upon as heretics by the mullahs).

JUSTIN - I hope you're enjoying CARAVANS. I've always wondered whether the reason that the Brits refused to consider that the Afghans could possibly be descended from the ancient Jews was because it was not useful (or convenient) for them to do so. I've had several conversations with a British friend at the Library of Congress on this topic and he always laughs, but doesn't deny it as a possibility.

robert b. iadeluca
January 6, 2005 - 05:14 am
Let us return to Durant.

"All religions, however noble in origin, soon carry an accrection of susperstitions rising naturally out of minds harassed and stupefied by the fatigue of the body and terror of the soul in the struggle for continuance.

"Most Moslems believed in magic and rarely doubted the ability of sorcerers to divine the future -- to reveal hidden treasures -- compel affection -- affect an enemy -- cure disease -- or ward off the evil eye.

"Many believed in magic metamorphoses of men into animals or plants, or in miraculous transits through space. This is almost the framework of the Arabian nights. Spirits were everywhere, performing every manner of trick and enchantment upon mortals, and begetting unwanted children upon careless women.

"Most Moslems, like half the Christian world, wore amulets as protection against evil influences -- considered some days lucky -- other days unlucky -- and believed that dreams might reveal the future, and that God sometimes spoke to man in dreams.

"Everyone in Islam, as in Christendom, accepted astrology. The skies were charted not only to fix the orientation of mosques and the calendar of religious feasts, but to select a celestially propitious moment for any important enterprise, and to determine the genethialogy of each individual -- i.e. his character and fate as set by the position of the stars at his birth."

What a big sub-topic this is! Any thoughts?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
January 6, 2005 - 08:40 am

Superstitions, magic, spirits, amulets, we've seen these over and over from the time we opened the first page of Our Oriental Heritage in November, 2001. These things permeate religions today. Where are we headed? How far have we come?

Mal

Fifi le Beau
January 6, 2005 - 09:39 pm
I have never believed in magic or any of its affectations. My parents did not allow such foolishness in our home. This is a trait that ran through several generations that I myself was exposed to. I knew two great-grandmothers and one great-grandfather of my mothers side of the family alone. and all of them were realistic no nonesense people who never tolerated fools gladly.

They in turn told of their own grandparents who were born in the 1700's. Since Durant has taken us to the Twelfth century there are only 500 years separating his writing and the words of my great grandmother who had a reasonable explanation for every occurance, in turn handed down through generations. None of those explanations involved magic or gods.

Anyone who professed to be able to divine the future, reveal treasure, compel affection, affect an enemy, cure disease or spoke of an evil eye would have been dismissed as a charlatan and a fool.

As for spirits, I was always told there is no such thing as spirits or ghosts. The only thing we should be aware of and cautious about are those live ones we see walking about each day.

How convenient for men to blame spirits for impregnating those careless women and begetting all those little unwanted children. We can now imprison all those men who have imposed themselves on women, and there isn't a spirit among them. DNA tells the tale of those real life walk abouts my grandmother warned me about.

I have never believed in astrology, nor do I know anyone past or present in my family who follows this false practice. It has long since been proven to be false and practiced by charlatans who are out to separate the fool from his money.

Regardless of my up bringing, I would not have believed in any of these schemes. They seem nonsensible to me, and without merit. If their gods were all knowing and powerful why the need for charlatans, shysters, con artists, and all manner of trickery to fool the all knowing god. They seem to have little faith in their god, and use magic to try to manipulate their life.

I read Mal's link about things we believe written by leading educators and scientists. I have one to add of my own, but I believe mine has been proven to be scientifically true.

I believe the mind is the brain, a physical organ. The mind is simply the action of neurotransmitters.

Dr. Steven Pinker of Harvard writes that neuroscience shows that the 'soul' is just the activity of the brain. There is no ghost in the brain, and modern neuroscience has shown that there is no 'user'. The "soul" is, in fact, the information processing activity of the brain. New imaging techniques have tied every thought and emotion to neural activity. And any change to the brain-from strokes, drugs, electricity or surgery-will literally change your mind.

Since any of the changes to the brain can effect any of us, who knows that in the future I may be walking around with an amulet, reading my horoscope, putting a hex on my dear neighbor, and calling on Odin for relief. I may include the whole host of gods that Robby has listed for extra added leverage, one for every day of the year.

It wouldn't be me or who I have ever been, but who knows what awaits us. There is already talk of brain transplants, just don't give me one like Jessica Simpson's. Body yes, brain no.

Fifi

Malryn (Mal)
January 6, 2005 - 10:01 pm

Wow, is it ever refreshing to read your post, FIFI.

Mal

Justin
January 7, 2005 - 12:03 am
Nice to know there are fellow travellers in this group.

However, most people do not have Fifi's ancestral background to support them. The more common ancestral background is superstition prone and much mental labor is required to reach the position Fifi has inherited. Many who achieve the same level of understanding do so at the expense of parental relationships.

Many people are afraid of dying with sin on their ledger. They, as a result, take the position that they do not know whether a God exists but why deny it when it costs nothing to believe and one then has everything to gain. I think that's the rationale of the superstitious. It's not very courageous but it's safe and too, one, generally, does not have the time to investigate. One must make a living, afterall.

The truth, of course, is that superstition is a mixed blessing. It is a great aid in law enforcement but at the same time the practice of superstition embezzles it's adherents and leaves them vulnerable to guilt and other debilitating ailments.

robert b. iadeluca
January 7, 2005 - 02:16 am
There are some participants and lurkers here, Justin, who are not fellow travelers. Some are true believers and some are those who, as you indicate, "take out insurance." Then there are those who, as Durant told us, find it is easier to follow a daily routine if it is guided by some sort of religious faith.

What I believe Durant is impressing upon us is that those who are non-Muslims have no right to look down on Muslims for their "superstitions" when they are just as prevalent among those who practice Christianity and Judaism.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
January 7, 2005 - 02:31 am
"Seeming to the outer world as indiscriminately one in ritual and belief, Islam was early divided into sects as numerous and furious as in Christendom.

"There were the martial, puritanic, democratic Kharijites -- Murji'ites who held that no Moslem would be everlastingly damned -- Jabrites who denied free will and upheld absolute predestination -- Qadarites who defended the freedom of the will, and many others. We pay our respects to their sincerity and omniscience, and pass on.

"But the Shi'ites belong inescapably to history. They overthrew the Umayyads, captured Persian, Egyptian, and Indian Islam, and deeply affected literature and philosophy. The Shia (i.e. group,sect) had its origin in two murders -- the assassination of Ali, and the slaughter of Husein and his family.

"A large minority of Moslems argued that since Mohammed was the chosen Apostle of Allah, it must have been Allah's intent that the Prophet's descendants, inheriting some measure of his divine spirit and purpose, should inherit his leadership in Islam.

"All caliphs except Ali seemed to them usurpers. They rejoiced when Ali became caliph, mourned when he was murderd, and were profoundly shocked by Husein's death. Ali and Husein became saints in Shia worship. Their shrines were held second in holiness only to the Kaaba and the Prophet's tomb.

"Perhaps influenced by Persian, Jewish, and Christian ideas of a Messiah, and the Buddhist conception of Bodhisattvas -- repeatedly incarnated saints -- the Shi'ites considered the descendants of Ali to be Imams ('exemplars'), i.e. infalliable incarnations of divine wisdom.

"The eighth Imam was Riza, whose tomb at Mashhad, in northeastern Persia, is accounted the 'Glory of the Shia World.'

"In 873 the twelfth Imam -- Muhammad ibn Hasan -- disappeared in the twelfth year of his age. In Shia belief he did not die, but bides his time to reappear and lead the Shia Moslems to universal supremacy and bliss."

We are now beginning to understand the belief of the Shi'ites of whom we hear so much in our daily newscasts.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
January 7, 2005 - 02:59 am
This ARTICLE in this morning's NY Times tells of current opinions of the West by Muslims in Indonesia.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
January 7, 2005 - 03:18 am
Here are some DETAILED DIFFERENCES between the Sunni and the Shi'ites.

Robby

Sunknow
January 7, 2005 - 01:32 pm
Durant's "......Islam was early divided into sects as numerous and furious as in Christendom".

I confess that I am guilty of thinking of all Muslims as one and the same. I understand that Islam is divided into sects, just as Christendom is divided, but I always come back to ask questions:

"How could anyone want to admit being a Muslim, knowing that some Muslims are so violent, not only to "outsiders", but they even slay each other left and right? How can anyone believe it is alright to do such violence "in the name of Allah"?

Surely Christians would not allow any sect to call itself Christian if they subscribed to such horrible deeds and beliefs in the name of God. No matter how little respect you may have for some Christian sects, you expect greater things from them than what you expect from a Muslim. We simply would not act in such an uncivilized manner. Suicide bombing? Beheading? In the name of Allah......? Why are the "bad" Muslims not stopped by the "good"?

Then I remember ...... in our current time, we are sending our own young men to Muslim "territory" and in the name of offering to, or trying to, enforce freedom on them....we are killing Muslims, as I said before....left and right. I argue with myself that we do not behead, or kill innocents on purpose.........

The argument goes on and on within myself. And it's a vicious circle with no answer in site.

Does a Non-Christian, Non-Muslim have such questions?

Sun

Shasta Sills
January 7, 2005 - 03:59 pm
Well, I'm a non-Christian and a non-Muslim, and I never ask which religion is best or worst, because all religions are practiced by human beings, and we are a flawed species with so many shortcomings that it's hardly worthwhile to get too excited about them. I refuse to condemn anybody's religion. If a religion is useful to a person and helps him live his life, then as far as I am concerned that's a perfectly good religion. Just because I am an atheist is no reason why everybody else should be one. I can never be so sure of myself that I can believe everybody else has to believe what I believe.

3kings
January 7, 2005 - 04:04 pm
Religion can be a great comfort to those in dire need. My wife, along with 1.5 million Poles who where deported to Stalin's Labour camps and witnessed the daily killing of their relatives, by bullet in the back of the head, if need be, or death by neglect for those who fell sick or injured, are mostly very devout Catholics.

In a world of utter madness, the oppressed turn to religion, or find confirmation of their beliefs, because it is the only support they have. And so my wife even now, 65 years later, never neglects her church duties. I, a non believer, aid her in any way I can, to keep faith with her God. To me it would be absurd to try and 'ween' her from her beliefs, though I truly regard them as superstitions.

So, ROBBY, and others, I agree whole heartedly with your recent posts, when you said things such as :-

"What I believe Durant is impressing upon us is that those who are non-Muslims have no right to look down on Muslims for their "superstitions" when they are just as prevalent among those who practice Christianity and Judaism". ++ Trevor

Justin
January 7, 2005 - 08:40 pm
Time and again, I hear folks talk of "moderate Islam". I want to accept that as a possibility but it is difficult based on what we have read so far. The NYT article Robby posted referred to "moderate Islam and a few radicals." Must Islam change to achieve peace in the world? Is violence upon one's neighbor so ingrained in the Qur'an that moderation is unlikely? If the "Golden Rule" is included in Qur"an somewhere perhaps selection of that verse will permit the Muslim to at least tolerate non believers or infidels. I don't know what can be done about the unfavorable role of women. Perhaps the efforts of Attaturk can be resumed.

The existance of cults and sects in Islam is a good sign. It shows that the Muslim can accept variety in his beliefs.

Justin
January 7, 2005 - 11:42 pm
I don't think anyone here "looks down on Muslims" or on adherants of any of the other religions.It is not our place to proselytyze among the faithful. I personally would never attempt to ween anyone away from their faith. But that does not mean that one should not try to understand and to criticize in terms of social values the beliefs of others.

Believers and non believers alike have a social responsibility to ensure that one's beliefs do not harm others. Catholics must constantly critique Catholicism to ensure it does no damage to others in society. Evangelicals must do the same. However, there is a great tendency among followers to ignore the effects of it's beliefs on others and on society as a whole.

I look at Islam in a general way, as I hope most of you do as well, not as a personal thing. It is something that can be examined apart from its worshippers and especially apart from any particular worshipper.

Trevor, You can defend or attack any position I offer on this or any topic but don't feel you must defend any person who is an adherent because no person is ever under attack unless we make a mistake. I don't think less of anyone who practices a religion. They may need that spititual connection for any number of reasons, all very valid. I simply want the right to assess that religion as an object in society.

Justin
January 8, 2005 - 12:23 am
The article linked in post 472 shows some differences between Shi'a and Sunni and some of their deviants. The Shi'a believe that responsibilty for one's actions is vested clearly in the individual. The Sunni, on the other hand, believe in predestination.

If there is to be any hope for a moderate Islam it must come from the Shi'a for they recognize that they are responsible for their actions. The Shi'a are prominant in Persia. The Sunni are predominant in Iraq. Do you suppose this difference between Shi'a and Sunni in Iraq will affect the outcome of the current effort to promote democracy and individual responsibility in Iraq?

Justin
January 8, 2005 - 12:32 am
Sunknow: You overlooked our tendency to torture in pow camps and the President's lawyer as well as nomminee for AG, who provided legal encouragement for the behavior. Of course, one should also point out that our troops are not associated with a religion.

3kings
January 8, 2005 - 12:52 am
JUSTIN I know you were not attacking any individual, ( least of all my wife ) in your scorn for the believers, whether Christian. Muslim, or whatever.

I was just attempting to point out yet again, that adherence to extreme religious belief is often engendered in people by their experience at the hands of economic or nationalistic oppressors.

The US has twice invaded Iraq, and between those two wars, the UN deliberately withheld trade in essentials from the people of that country. The effect was to generate such hatred for the West, that young hot heads are willing to kill themselves to try and destroy those who are intent on oppressing them.( Whether the targets are Americans, or those who are regarded as stooges of America.)

The result would be the same if Chinese communists ever managed to occupy the US. The cry would be " Better dead than Red !" And so the young US lads would sacrifice themselves in suicide attacks on the occupiers of their land. (And Christian churches would be overflowing with the faithful) And the greatest of their fury would be for any Americans they believed were siding with the enemy.

I mentioned my wife, only as it is through her experiences that I think I can see how various religions or religious sects can get such an unbreakable hold on persons' minds. ++ Trevor

Sunknow
January 8, 2005 - 01:14 am
Thank you for the response to my questions. I would like to say that I had no intention of offending, or condemning anyone. If I phrased my doubts to sound that way, I'm sorry. The thing is, until I started following "Civilization", I never gave much thought at all to the Muslims or their religion. So I am learning as I go.

I will say that I have questioned other religions all of my life. Half of my immediate family was Catholic, and half Protestant.....going farther back, there are four generations of Methodist Ministers, including my grandfather, and then an uncle, ., another uncle a Nazarene Missionary. My mother was Baptist, my father and his family were devout Catholics, until he married my mother, and I have cousins that are a Methodist Minister, a Priest and a Nun. I've also had relatives that believe nothing at all when it comes to religion. Everyone thought everyone else was going to hell.

When I started school they battled over regular school or Catholic school, among other things. By the time I was a teenager, I came to believe it matter not a whit which church you belong to, or attended, or what religion you believed. Your own personal relationship with your God, or without a God was your business. I have questioned and discussed all these things all of my life, and continued to love all my family and I wouldn't tell you where I landed for anything. Subject closed.

Now I am trying to learn about what Muslims believe. I may not ask the questions right, but I suspect I will keep on asking, just the same.

I enjoy this discussion, and learn from all of you, and from the links you post, as well as from Robby, and of course, from Durant.

Aw, yes...Justin, your last post. You are correct, the troops are not associated with a religion, are they? Glad you pointed that out! And I didn't really overlook the nomminee for AG or the POW scandals, nor could I...but I sense we might agree on both, and best not discuss that here, They are excellent points.

As Robby would say....back to the discussion.

Sun

Malryn (Mal)
January 8, 2005 - 05:11 am

This link takes you to an interesting article called "Why don't Christians live what they preach?"

Is it possible that the success of the Islam religion is that Muslims do live what they preach?

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
January 8, 2005 - 05:17 am
Yes, back to Durant, but first a warm appreciation on my part for the thought-provoking and self-revealing posts being made which at the same time are showing respect for others here. What you folks are doing is what makes this discussion group the success it is. Let us continue.

"As in most religions, the various sects of Islam felt toward one another an animosity more intense than that with which they viewed the 'infidels' in their midst.

"To these Dhimmi -- Christians, Zoroastrians, Sabaeans, Jews -- the Umayyad caliphate offered a degree of toleration hardly equaled in contemporary Christian lands. They were allowed the free practice of their faiths, and the retention of their churches, on condition that they wear a distinctive honey-colored dress, and pay a poll tax of from one to four dinars ($4.75 to $19.00) per year according to their income.

"This tax fell only upon non-Moslems capable of military service. It was not levied upon monks, women, adolescents, slaves, the old, crippled, blind, or very poor. In return the dhimmi were excused (or excluded) from military service, were exempt from the two and a half per cent tax for community charity, and received the protection of the government. Their testimony was not admitted in Moslem courts but they were allowed self-government under their own leaders, judges, and laws.

"The degree of toleration varied with dynasties. The Successors were spasmodically severe, the Umayyads generally lenient, the Abbasids alternately lenient and severe. Omar I ejected all Jews and Christians from Arabia as Islam's Holy Land and a questionable tradition ascribes to him a 'Covenant of Omar' restraining their rights in general.

"This edict, if it ever existed. was in practice ignored. Omar himself continued in Egypt the allowances formerly made to the Christian churches by the Byzantine government."

Toleration hardly equaled in contemporary lands?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
January 8, 2005 - 08:11 am
This ARTICLE from this morning's NY Times discusses how much charity the Muslim world is giving toward the victims in Indonesia, etc.

Robby

Bubble
January 8, 2005 - 10:23 am
Arabic "zakat", Hebrew "tzedaka", see how near those two languages are.

Scrawler
January 8, 2005 - 11:40 am
My sister works for the American Red Cross and she shared the following with me: www.hiddengifts.org/we are one/ I thought you might be interested in this sight.

Annie3
January 8, 2005 - 04:46 pm
Just a tiny comment. I looked at scrawlers link and found it to be amazing.

Justin
January 8, 2005 - 06:14 pm
Scrawler: Hiddengifts provides amazing, before and after views of the Tsunami disaster.

Justin
January 8, 2005 - 07:10 pm
Trevor: Scorn involves anger and disgust. I hope that my messages do not invoke that characteristic. If they do, I may have to admit that it is not possible to examine religions with my critical eye. Perhaps, one may accept or reject but not say, this one is damaging to society or that one intrudes on other's freedoms. It's no wonder Robby rides close herd on us. I know I come close to the line sometimes.

I think we are experiencing the very condition you describe in Iraq. Young hot heads are blowing themselves up along with as many Americans as they can reach with their explosives. The cry,"Better dead than Democratic" can not be far from their lips.

Your observation that extreme religious beliefs are often engendered in people by their experience with oppressors, seems to me very sensible. Fear is the response the oppressed must contend with. Religion offers help to the oppressed by providing a source of appeal. Without appeal, the oppressed can have no hope and hope is essential to one's well being.

robert b. iadeluca
January 9, 2005 - 03:34 am
We are nearing the end of the section on faith and will soon start discussing the people themselves.

"The Jews of the Near East had welcomed the Arabs as liberators. They suffered now divers disabilities and occasional persucutions but they stood on equal terms with Christians, were free once more to live and worship in Jerusalem, and prospered under Islam in Asia, Egypt, and Spain as never under Christian rule.

"Outside of Arabia the Christians of western Asia usually practiced their religion unhindered. Syria remained predominantly Christian until the third Moslem century.

"In the reign of Mamun (813-33) we hear of 11,000 Christian churches in Islam -- as well as hundreds of synagogues and fire temples. Christian festivals were freely and openly celebrated, Christian pilgrims came in safety to visit Christian shrines in Palestine. The Crusaders found large numbers of Christians in the Near East in the twelfth century and Christian communities have survived there to this day.

"Christian heretics persecuted by the patriarchs of Constantinople, Jerusalem, Alexandria, or Antioch were now free and safe under a Moslem rule tht found their disputes quite unintelligible. In the ninth century the Moslem governor of Antioch appointed a special guard to keep Christian sects from massacring one another at church. Monasteries and nunneries flourished under the skeptical Umayyads. The Arabs admired the work of the monks in agriculture and reclamation, acclaimed the wines of monastic vintage, and enjoyed, in traveling, the shade and hospitality of Christian cloisters.

"For a time relations between the two religions were so genial that Christians wearing crosses on their breasts conversed in mosques with Moslem friends. The Mohammedan administrative bureaucracy had hundreds of Christian employees. Christians rose so frequently to high office as to provide Moslem complaints. Sergius, father of St. John of Damascus, was chief finance minister to Abd-al-Malik, and John himself, last of the Greek Fathers of the Church, headed the council that governed Damascus.

"The Christians of the East in general regarded Islamic rule as a lesser evil than that of the Byzantine government and church."

So why is there so much animosity today?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
January 9, 2005 - 06:12 am
Here is an INTERESTING ARTICLE from today's NY Times discussing Christian-Jewish relations.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
January 9, 2005 - 06:18 am
Another article from today's NY Times on RELIGION IN THE WORLD TODAY.

Robby

Justin
January 9, 2005 - 03:38 pm
I wonder if Trevor's message about economics is not at the heart of today's disension in the Middle East. Jews and Muslims appear to have lived side by side for many centuries without lasting animosity.

When the Ottoman empire colapsed the Versailles Treaty served to establish separate geographic kingdoms in the Middle East. The new kingdoms were ostensibly secular in form as in Iraq, Iran, Syria, and Saudi Arabia. When WW2 ended, the practice of carving up geography to provide for displaced people continued.

The UN formed Israel out of Palestine and ended a British Mandate. What was different about the formation of Israel? It was formed as a democracy in which a single religion became the dominant force and the Palestinian Muslims were displaced and their property absorbed into the state. No world organization did anything to help them as they became a stateless minority.

The Israeli defensive wars with it's Arab neighbors only made things worse for the displaced Palestinians. Newly captured territory and Israeli settlement has only exacerbated the problem. Today, the Palestinians are walled out. So they fight with bad leadership and without help from the world's political powers. They started by throwing stones and have now reached the suicide bomber stage. The Israeli- Palestinian question is one of civil war. It is one of neighbor against neighbor with one side displaced by political preference.

Is there any validity in this argument, Bubble?

Persian
January 9, 2005 - 07:46 pm
I recently had a conversation with a Palestinian Christian friend who wondered aloud how different society might have been in Israel if, when the Palestinians found themselves without their ancestral homes, a world organization had stepped forward to help them as we have seen done for the victims of the tsunamis in Asia and Africa.

I heard more or less the same question posed a few years ago by a Syrian Christian (a long-time resident in the USA), who wondered if the American government in Washington didn't realize that although the American Jewish community is very active around the world on behalf of Israel, why Washington didn't understand that there are a lot of Palestinian Christians who had suffered in the same way their Muslims neighbors did.

Yet one of the political cartoons which ran in the local paper (although I think it was originally from the Denver Post ) depicted people falling all over themselves in donating funds to a small Asian boy with a beggar's bowl, while totally ignoring another small boy, who was trying to collect funds for Sudan. There was no caption on the cartoon, but the message was clear.

In yesterday's news, Nelson Mandella announced that his son had died of AIDS. In his grief, he also admitted that when he was in public office, he had NOT done enough to call attention to the AIDS scourge throughout Africa and pressure the Western countries to direct more financial assistance to those countries most deeply affected.

So how do we judge? What could/should have been done and by whom? Who/what is to blame? How can societies rectify their past failures or hesitancy to look squarely at a problem within their own country - here I think of the continued child slavery in the USA - and rectify it?

IMO, religious differences are NOT the major issues of dissent. One can always learn about those differences - as we are doing in this discussion - but when governments are aware of the dissention - as in the case of Israel and the Palestinians who first lost their homelands and have lived for many years as refugees - and take no action or look the other way in the face of severe risks (i.e. continued conflicts in each generation), then I really wonder about the future of mankind.

Justin
January 9, 2005 - 08:12 pm
Mahlia; You add another dimension to the problem. Is it possible, there is a mixture of religions among the Palestinians who have been displaced? I don't think anyone of significance realizes that possiblity. I fear they were thought of as illiterate Arab Muslims who could be dispensed with easily. But, if that is as world leaders think, one needs a better understanding of the hatred one creates by ignorance and lack of compassion. Here we are fifty years later, the Israelies are still bleeding and the Palestinians are still homeless and fighting. Unless B and B do something sensible the next fifty years will pass with no change.

Bubble
January 10, 2005 - 02:50 am
It always puzzled me how Israelis could rally to help Jews throughout the world when they are oppressed or in danger, but noone helped the displaced Palestinians to have a decent life outside their refugees camps. All the surrounding countries are Arabs who could have helped or absorbed some since there are many countries in far East. Palestinian remains non-grata everywhere.

It is true that here one feels the resentment engendered by the cheap labor offered by Palestinians when there is so much unemployment... I don't believe it is so much religion as economic/material interest that is at the root of the conflict and that would mean land as well since most survive on agriculture as well.

robert b. iadeluca
January 10, 2005 - 05:14 am
"Despite or because of this policy of tolerance in early Islam, the new faith won over to itself in time most of the Christians, nearly all the Zoroastrians and pagans, and many of the Jews, of Asia, Egypt, and North Africa.

"It was a fiscal advantage to share the faith of the ruling race. Captives in war could escape slavery by accepting Allah, Mohammed, and circumcision. Gradually the non-Moslem populations adopted the Arabic languge and dress, the laws and faith of the Koran.

"Where Hellenism, after a thousand years of mastery, had failed to take root, and Roman arms had left the native gods unconquered, and Byzantine orthodoxy had raised rebellious heresies, Mohammedanism had secured, almost with proselytism, not only belef and worship, but a tenacious fidelity tht quite forgot the superseded gods.

"From China, Indonesia, and India through Persia, Syria, Arabia, and Egypt to Morocco and Spain, the Mohammedan faith touched the hearts and fancies of a hundred peoples -- governed their morals and molded their lives -- gave them consoling hopes and strengthening pride -- until today it owns the passionate allegiance of 350,000,000 souls, and through all political divisions makes them one."

Passionate allegiance!

Robby

Persian
January 10, 2005 - 09:12 am
BUBBLE - you've offerd an excellent point about the economics of the Palestinian issue, rather than a focus only on the Muslim/Jewish stance, which seems to garner so much attention - and that is understandable as the violence continues. True, the issue of land - particularly the Palestinian's loss of ancestral sites- is paramount to the continuing conflict, but IMO the Palestinians have wasted enormous time and learning opportunities in the continued conflicts, rather than use the time to work with humanitarian and other world-wide aid groups to establish themselves elsewhere.

I remember listening to the late King Hussein of Jordan many years ago when he was in Washington DC. He spoke eloquently and very movingly about the plight of the Palestinians, commenting that at that time the majority of Jordanians were of Palestinian ancestry. He also mentioned "the cultural stubbornness of Arabs - Palestinians do not want to live in Egypt or Saudi Arabia or Syria or Iraq. They are Palestinians, not Egyptians, Saudis, Syrians or Iraqis. They want to live in Palestine!" And that feeling is predominant today! Wealthy Palestinians can, of course, live anywhere their money takes them - and they do - but the Palestinians who have been sequestered in the refugee camps do not have that flexibility. And they continue to dream of "the right of return" to their ancestral lands.

During the first Gulf War, I remember working with Arab families who had been evacuated from Kuwait to Maryland. Two of the families were Palestinians. After a broadcast on an Arab radio station solicited help from Arab businessmen in the Washington area brought absoslutely no response, I called several Jewish friends in Baltimore. They and their families rushed to the military base where the evacuated families had been lodged temporarily. There was absolutely no hesitancy to help - the Jewish and Arab men warmly shook hands, embraced and all talked at once. The Jewish women comforted the Arab women and the two Palestinian families were immediately "adopted" into one of the Jewish families, who subsequently acted as their hosts. A line of credit was established at a local grocery store; a beauty salon welcomed the Arab women and helped to refresh their appearances; and ALL of the Arab families were taken shopping for clothes and other family needs. The cost ws born by the American Jewish families who rushed to help the evacuees. I remember hearing over and over "these people are NOT Israelis, they are Americans!" Those comments made me sad and happy at the same time!

JoanK
January 10, 2005 - 10:21 am
I remember when I was in Israel, the main immigration was from Romania ans Morocco. There was a lot of hostility between the two groups. As new immigrants, they were competing with each other for jobs at the bottom of the ladder. These differences were expressed in terms of resentment at racial,cultural and religious differences (the Moroccans being mostly orthodox Sphardim, the Ashkenazim Romanians having grown up in a Communist country were often secular Jews) but I felt the roots were economic.

Shasta Sills
January 10, 2005 - 03:53 pm
Justin, are you in either part of California where they are having all that terrible weather--floods and snowstorms?

robert b. iadeluca
January 10, 2005 - 05:23 pm
The People

robert b. iadeluca
January 10, 2005 - 05:38 pm
"Under the Umayyads the Arabs constituted a ruling aristocracy, and enjoyed a stipend from the state. In return for these privileges, all able-bodied Arab males were subject at any time to military service.

"As conquerors they were proud of their supposedly unmixed blood and pure speech. With keen genealogical consciousness the Arab added his father's name to his own, as in Abdallah ibn (son of) Zobeir. Sometimes he added his tribe and place of origin, and made a biography of a name, as in Abu Bekr Ahmad ibn Jarir al-Azdi.

"Purity of blood became a myth as the conquerors took conquered women as concubines, and reckoned their offspring as Arabs. But pride of blood and rank remained.

"The higher class of Arabs moved about on horseback, clothed in white silk and a sword. The commoner walked in baggy trousers, convoluted turban, and pointed shoes. The Bedouin kept his flowing gown, head shawl, and band. Long drawers were prohibited by the Prophet, but some Arabs ventured into them.

"All classes affected jewelry. Women stimulated the male fancy with tight bodices, bright girdles, loose and colorful skirts. They wore their hair in bangs at the front, curls at the side, braids at the back. Sometimes they filled it out with black silk threads. Often they adorned it with gems or flowers.

"Increasingly after the year 715, when out of doors, they veiled the face below the eyes. In this way every woman could be romantic, for at any age the eyes of Arab women are perilously beautiful.

"Women matured at twelve and were old at forty. In the interval they inspired most of Arabic poetry, and maintained the race."

Your comments, please?

Robby

3kings
January 10, 2005 - 06:22 pm
ROBBY The only comment I can make to the above is, "same old, same old.." It is the story of all military occupations and military visits, since time immemorial.

JUSTIN will remember events that occurred when he and the US military visited NZ during the 1940's .... I know, because as a young man in those years, I and my contemporaries couldn't compete with the glamour of the US uniform, or their ready access to cash!! Of course when we were overseas , visiting the "States', or in Europe, the boot was on the other foot..... ++ Trevor

Justin
January 10, 2005 - 07:08 pm
Shasta: The last week to ten days the weather has been very wet. My place is part way up on a hillside that runs down to the beach. The water runs off nicely. Others in the area have not been so lucky. The hills around them absorb water and after too much rain become mud. Loggers have been cutting eucalytus recently on the far side of the hill and that may give me problems at some time in the future. But for now, we are ok. Are you having weather problems below Capistrano?

robert b. iadeluca
January 10, 2005 - 07:15 pm
An EXCELLENT ARTICLE about Arab women.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
January 10, 2005 - 08:59 pm

HAWWA, the magazine for Arab women mentioned in the article Robby linked in Post #505

JoanK
January 10, 2005 - 09:04 pm
That is interesting, and surprising to me.

I was interested in the article on American women married to Arab men. My daughter has such a woman as neighbor and friend.My daughter is appalled at her life. She and my daughter went to a movie together, and she was terribly excited. It was the first time in years that she had gone anywhere without her children. Apparently, she got in trouble for it afterward, and hasn't done it again. Her father-and-mother-in-law came for a visit, and have stayed. She can't ask them when they are leaving: it wouldn't be polite.

The way she treats her children (ages 3 and 6) is different. They are extremely polite and neat, more so than American children. On the other hand, they routinely hit their playmates, and their mother does nothing. She does not admonish them (at least in my daughter's presence) no matter what they do. I don't know if this is due to the cultural differences in child-rearing mentioned in the article.

Justin
January 11, 2005 - 12:46 am
The article on arab women seems to promise that change is possible. A few well to do Arab women, those educated in the West, have broken through and are testing the boundaries of Islamic constraint. In the cities, particularly in Beirut, some women avoid the dress code, some work in the professions, while others seek apartments away from their families.

Is this a crack in the constraining armor of Islam that will widen in the years to come or will it be an isolated activity for women who manage to get an education and who live in cities? I'm rooting for the ladies to widen the breach. Remember the song refrain " you can't keep them down on the farm once they've seen Paree."

robert b. iadeluca
January 11, 2005 - 01:39 am
"The Moslem has no respect for celibacy and never dreamed of perpetual continence as an ideal state. Most Moslem saints married and had children.

"Perhaps Islam erred in the oppposite direction and carried marriage to an extreme. It gave the sexual appetite so many outlets within the law that prostitution diminished for a time under Mohammed and the Successors.

"Exhaustion requires stimulation and dancing girls soon played a prominent role in the life of even the most married Moslem male. Moslem literature, being intended only for male eyes and ears, was sometimes as loose as male conversation in a Christian land. It contained a superabundance of deliberately erotic books. Moslem medical works gave much attention to aphrodisiacs.

"In strict Mohammedan law fornication and pederasty were to be punished with death. The growth of wealth brought an easier ethic, punished fornication with thirty strokes, and winked at the spread of homosexual love. A class of professional homosexuals (mukhannath) arose who imitated the costume and conduct of women, plaited their hair, dyed their nails with henna, and performed obscene dances.

"The Caliph Suleiman ordered the mukhannath of Mecca castrated. The Caliph al-Hadi, coming upon two women attendants in Lesbian relations, beheaded them on the spot.

"Despite such discouragement homosexualism made rapid progress. A few years after al-Hadi it was prevalent at Harun's court and in the songs of his favorite poet Abu Nuwas.

"The Moslem male, separated from women before marrige by purdah, and surfeited with them after marriage by the harem, fell into irregular relations.

"Women, secluded from all men but relatives, slipped into similar perversions."

I find myself trying to understand the meanings of the words "conservative" and "liberal." Were (or are) the Moslems conservative? liberal?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
January 11, 2005 - 02:16 am
Here is an article on ISLAM AND HOMOSEXUALITY. As usual, consider the source.

Robby

JoanK
January 11, 2005 - 02:31 am
I'm confused. He says same-sex sexual relations are common, as are men holding hands, but if any love is shown, it is punished by death?

robert b. iadeluca
January 11, 2005 - 02:34 am
This ARTICLE speaks of the Muslim, Jewish, and Christian approach to sexual morality. Once again, consider the source.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
January 11, 2005 - 05:26 am

I see so much discrepancy in Islam that I sometimes wonder if God (Allah) became confused when he was dictating, or if the differences were put there when his word was written down. I could say the same about Christianity or any other religion that follows what's in a "Holy Book." I mean, whom do you believe? The writer who says Islamic women have all kinds of freedom and chances or the writer who says they're limited, male-dominated and don't? Or the writer who says Islamic homosexuals get off easy, or another who says for them it's off with your head?

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
January 11, 2005 - 06:37 pm
"The contact with Persia promoted both pederasty and purdah in Islam. The Arabs had always feared, as well as admired, woman's charms, and had revenged themselves for instinctive subjection to them by the usual male doubts about her virtue and intelligence. Said Omar I "Consult women and do the contrary of what they advise.

"But the Moslems of Mohammed's century had not secluded their women. The two sexes exchanged visits, moved indiscriminately through the streets, and prayed together in the mosque. When Musab ibn al-Zobeir asked his wife Aisha why she never veiled her face, she answered 'Since Allah, may He remain blessed and exalted, hath put upon me the stamp of beauty, it is my wish that the public should view that beauty, and thereby recognize His grace unto them.'

"Under Walid II (743-4), however, the harem-and-eunuch system took form, and purdah developed with it. Harim, like haram, meant forbidden, sacred. The seclusion of women was originally due to their being tabu because of menstruation or childbirth. The harem was a sanctuary.

"The Moslem husband knew the passionate temper of the Oriental, felt a need to protect his women, and saw no escape from their adultery except through their incarceration. It became reprehensible for women to walk in the streets except for short distances and veiled. They could visit one another, but usually they traveled in curtained litters. They were never to be seen abroad at night.

"They were separated from the men in the mosque by a screen or railing or gallery. Finally they wre excluded altogether. Religion, which in Latin Christendom has been described as a secondary sexual characteristic of the female, became in Islam, as public worship, a prereogative of the male.

"Even more cruelly, women were forbidden the pleasure of shopping. They sent out for what they needed. Pedlars, usually women, came to spread their wares on the harem floor. Rarely, except in the lower classes, did the women sit at table with their husbands.

"It was unlawful for a Moslem to see the face of any woman except his wives, slaves, and near relatives. A physican was allowed to see only the afflicted part of a woman patient. The man found the system very convenient. It gave him at home a maximum of opportunity, adnd outside the home full freedom from surveillance or surprise.

"As for the women themselves, until the nineteenth century, there is no evidence that they objected to purdah or the veil. They enjoyed the privacy, security, and comforts of the zenana, or women's quarters. They resented as an insult any negligence of the husband in maintaining their seclusion, and from their apparent prison the legal wives still played a lively part in history.

"Khaizuran, Harun's mother, and Zobaida, his wife, rivaled in the eighth and ninth centuries the influence and audacity of Aisha in the seventh, and enjoyed a magnificence hardly dreamed of by Mohammed's wives."

Lots to talk about here!

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
January 11, 2005 - 10:27 pm
Illustrated page about Harem

Dining with the Sultana by Lady Mary Wortley Montagu (Author of Letters from the Levant) 1718

robert b. iadeluca
January 12, 2005 - 03:11 am
What's the relationship between THE TSUNAMI AND RELIGION?

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
January 12, 2005 - 04:01 am
""If you forget nature, this is the way nature reminds you. Crime and stress punish nature."

What I find difficult is the word "punish" because it blames humans for a natural phenomenon. Nature has a way of redressing itself by unleashing forces violently and unpredictably. In ancient times, the world did not have the large population it has today and perhaps the tsunami is a reminder that nature dominates humans, not the other way around.

Jan Sand
January 12, 2005 - 05:03 am
I have withheld comment in this group because it concerned itself with faith which I consider one of the more violently irrational mental sets in humanity and I do not enjoy endless arguments nor offending people. But the comment about domination of nature by mankind or vice versa frankly set my teeth on edge. Humanity (with much religious approval) somehow considers itself separate from nature despite the fact that every vital process in every microsecond of existence is intimately involved with the interactions of nature. Humanity, as with any other living or non-living process is totally immersed in nature and the concept of separation or domination is, frankly, wildly outlandish. Living processes present the appearance of somehow evading natural processes to preserve their continuity but the very evasion is a natural process and totally dependent upon natural processes.

robert b. iadeluca
January 12, 2005 - 05:11 am
Jan:-Thank you for coming "out of the corner." Let us hear more comments from you as we discuss this book "The Age of Faith."

Robby

Jan Sand
January 12, 2005 - 05:58 am
I appreciate the invitation but much of the material under discussion so ignites my flammable anger over the reprehensible activities within the unjustifiable beliefs that have afflicted mankind from prehistoric times into the present that I tend to get out of hand. I will continue to monitor the group which I find interesting and when the top of my head blasts off as with my recent comment I will do my best to present my viewpoint without being over destructive.

Malryn (Mal)
January 12, 2005 - 07:00 am
In other words, JAN, you might post when you're not mad at what's being said here about faith and religion, which you don't like.

Haven't people always turned to the supernatural or tried to blame someone when there were things they couldn't understand? Since to some people God has taken on human qualities just like you and me, "he" got mad like Jan and threw a Tsumani Temper Tantrum. We'd better shape up or else. Actually, that's not bad advice under any condition.

Charles Dickens, in "A Christmas Carol", has the Ghost of Christmas Present open his robes and show Scrooge a boy and girl hidden under them. They were "yellow, meagre, ragged amd scowling. Where angels might have sat enthroned, devils lurked and glanced out menacing." Scrooge is shocked and asks if the children belong to the Spirit. The Spirit says, "They are Man's. This boy is Ignorance. This girl is Want. Beware them both, and all of their degree, but most of all beware this boy, for on his brow I see that written which is Doom, unless the writing be erased."

Many of the people quoted in the article about the tsunami ROBBY linked live in Want and Ignorance. Beware Ignorance, Dickens said, and he was right.

Mal

Scrawler
January 12, 2005 - 11:38 am
I just want to make one quick comment. My Greek grandparents were betrothed to each other when they were three years old. My grandfather came to America in 1917 and brought my grandmother to America in 1921. From the moment she came to this country I never knew her to leave her home to go out shopping or anything else. She always had domain over the home and my grandfather had domain over anything that happened outside the home. To my knowledge they both had a very happy marriage. I never saw my grandmother angry or upset and she was always laughing and making jokes.

There was only one time that she ever left the house. She always liked FDR and when he ran for the last time she left the house to vote for him even though my grandfather didn't care for him. (Of course I was to young to remember this but it has become some what of a legend in our family.)

robert b. iadeluca
January 12, 2005 - 12:54 pm
This ARTICLE may be related to the question in the heading above "Where are We Headed"? Of course, we might ask ourselves who the pronoun "We" refers to.

Robby

Shasta Sills
January 12, 2005 - 04:03 pm
It was said somewhere that Aisha learned a lot from Mohammed. You can see an example of this when he asked her why she didn't wear the veil. She said if Allah wanted her to hide her face, he wouldn't have made her so beautiful.

Justin, I think it's Claire who lives with the swallows at Capistrano. I'm not even a Californian. I do live on a hillside though, and I would hate to have it slide out from under me.

tigerliley
January 12, 2005 - 06:04 pm
I hope this is not inappropriate to post this here.....We have from time to time been discussing the tusnami and how God does or does not fit into this..........

Weeping Over The Grave of God

Part II of a series about the Tsunami

In a 20th century drama entitled, "Conversation at Midnight," playwright Edna St. Vincent Millay had her character Ricardo speak these words: "Man has never been the same since God died. He has taken it very hard...He gets along pretty well, as long as it's daylight...but it's no use. The moment it begins to get dark, as soon as it is night, he goes out and howls over the grave of God."

Those words have been very poignant for me through the years, rising every time I experience the tragic dimensions of life that in the past were cushioned by the traditional understanding of God. The earthquake in the Indian Ocean, which spawned the Tsunami waves killing more than 150,000 people, was the latest occasion for calling to mind these words.

Had such a tragedy struck our world 500-600 years ago, two things would have been quite different. First, the probability is that most of the people of the Western world would never have known about it. The world was so vast in that period of history. Oceans and language were great barriers. Communication systems were quite primitive. This Tsunami would have made its way only into the remembered history of the affected areas, entering the folklore of the people and producing perhaps another story like the one about Noah.

In the 21st century, however, the press covered this enormous disaster relentlessly. Pictures of its horror invaded our homes via television. The story journeyed with us on through our car radios. It dominated the front pages of newspapers across this planet. There was no escape from the searing reality of the carnage, the cries of the victims or those newly bereaved. No one could avoid staring at the mass graves or trying to embrace what it means to lose so many lives so suddenly. People's emotions were numbed. This was not an attack by a foreign enemy to which people could release the frenzy of their pent up anger. It was the work of an impersonal force tearing up the earth miles beneath the ocean floor and unleashing waves of such height, power and fury that they destroyed everything in their path. Elderly people died. Babies died, sick and crippled people died, mothers died, fathers died. Rich vacationers died, poor peasants died. It had no rhyme, no reason and it lent itself to no rational process of thinking.

The second thing that was different was that in the past this tragedy would have been understood in the context of a religious worldview. Theories would abound as to what its meaning was and why God was so displeased that this divine punishment was hurled at the world. That was the way that Europe understood the Bubonic Plague in the 14th century and the way the storm that sank the Spanish armada in 1588 was interpreted. In the Tsunami coverage this religious dimension was totally missing at first, a clear indication that the religious worldview of the past no longer exists. Instead we were given geological lessons about the collision of tectonic plates. No one assumed that the victims were being punished. No one offered a rational explanation implying any purpose. Only after the passage of several days did the religious spokespersons begin to present their explanations on television and radio talk shows, but these voices were singularly lacking in both profundity and credibility. Larry King, interviewing not clergy but former Presidents Bush and Clinton, kept pressing both of them to say what this tragedy had done to their faith. President George W. H. Bush in response referred to the time he had lost a daughter and it "did cause me to wonder why...an innocent child." President Clinton referred to the unfairness of life at all times and urged Larry King to have on his program representative theologians from the religions practiced by most of the victims, Hindu, Moslem, Buddhist and Christian, to have them discuss how their faith helped them to understand this disaster. This tragedy simply did not lend itself to their pious but threadbare explanations. This was simply nature acting with the fury for which nature is well known.

Perhaps the last gasp of that traditional, pre-modern religious thinking occurred after the terrorist attack of September 11, 2001, when Jerry Falwell, appearing on Pat Robertson's 700 Club, offered the opinion that God had removed the shield of divine protection from America because its leaders had begun to tolerate "feminists, abortionists, homosexuals and the American Civil Liberties Union." The nation gasped at this level of religious arrogance and the current Bush administration distanced itself from these remarks, saying it did not want to be associated with that kind of response. Yet, years ago that was the typical and almost universal explanation. It is the common explanation that one encounters in the writing of the biblical prophets.

What has happened in the intervening years to change public perceptions? I think it is fair to say that God, understood as an external, supernatural, miracle-working deity has died. The death of this God was not sudden. The realization of this divine demise has slowly trickled down over the centuries from the intellectuals to the masses. The death of this God has spawned two seemingly opposite responses in our day. One is the development of a radically secular society. The other is in the hysterical rise of fundamentalist, evangelical religion that represents a denial that the death of God has occurred.

How did this death of God occur? It began in the 16th century with Copernicus and his later disciples Kepler and Galileo, who forced us to see that the earth was not the center of the universe and that God did not live just beyond the sky, engaged in the tasks of watching, planning, intervening, keeping record books, punishing and rewarding. This insight posed a mighty challenge to the God we met in the pages of scripture. This God was quite capable of splitting the Red Sea to liberate the Chosen People and of dictating the Ten Commandments to Moses. As the understanding of the universe expanded, we no longer knew where God was and more importantly who God was. The universe seemed very large and we began to feel very lonely. Then Isaac Newton explained how the laws of nature operated in this universe, leaving little room for miracle and magic. Next Charles Darwin challenged our assumption that human life was just a little lower than the angels, suggesting instead that it was just a little higher than the apes. Finally, Albert Einstein took away all certainty, replacing it with relativity. With each new insight, the traditional concept of God faded into the shadows.

The next step in the desacralization of our world came when we could no longer explain evil with our appeals to this supernatural deity. Life seemed more and more governed by chance and less and less by purpose. Analyzing who survived the attack on the World Trade Center, we discovered that it was the chance factor of whether they worked on the upper floors or the lower floors, not whether they were deserving or not. Passengers on the doomed 9/11 airliners prayed fervently but no divine hand reached down to give them aid. They were the chance victims who booked passage on the wrong plane. Then came the earthquake and the Tsunami. It erupted beneath the sea. It killed religious people and non-religious people. It killed Christians, Hindus, Muslims, and Buddhists. No God stopped it. When people thought about it they concluded that no God could stop it, which posed a provocative theological issue in such a way that it was inescapable. If God has the power to intervene and does not, then surely God is malevolent. If God does not have the power then God is impotent. Either way the traditional God explanation fails

robert b. iadeluca
January 12, 2005 - 08:28 pm
Yes, Tiger, your post was most appropriate to present here. Some of our participants may agree and some may disagree but your comments are thought-provoking. We are, indeed, gradually working through a book entitled "The Age of Faith" and your remarks relate to that topic. I urge others here to respond to Tiger's post.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
January 12, 2005 - 08:32 pm

With all due respect, Tigerliley, what is the source of the quote in your post?
What actually happened?

Dr. Brian Baptie, a senior seismologist with the British Geological Survey, explained how the wave, or tsunami, was created.
"Sumatra, or north-western Indonesia, is right on a plate boundary. The earth's surface is made up of lots of different tectonic plates and they are all moving around.

"The plate that has the Indian Ocean on it is moving roughly north-east and colliding with Sumatra. And as that collision takes place, the Indian Ocean plate gets subducted underneath Sumatra, and as that plate is subducted it breaks up and that is what causes the earthquake.

"This earthquake been one of the largest ever, one of the great earthquakes. There has been a rupture along a fault about 1,000 km long, and that has generated a vertical displacement of about 10m. The displacement in the sea floor has generated this huge tsunami.

"How does the wave develop?

"There's a huge vertical displacement in the sea floor as a result of the earthquake and that displaces a huge volume of water.

"You can imagine, if the rupture is 1,000 km long with a 10 m displacement in the sea floor you get hundreds of cubic kilometres of water and that results in a wave that travels through the ocean.

"In the deep ocean the height of the wave can be a few metres, maybe 5-10 m and it travels at a few hundred kilometres per hour. That means it travels relatively slowly compared with the seismic waves from the earthquake, and it has arrived quite a few hours later at surrounding coastal areas all around the Indian Ocean.

"As the tsunami wave approaches the shore it slows down, because the water gets shallower and what that means is the wave increases dramatically. When it hits the shoreline it can be 10-20 m, and that is probably what has happened in this case.

"Why was there no warning this was happening?

"There is a tsunami warning system in place in the Pacific Ocean because there is a historical precedent of lots of earthquakes causing tsunamis like this, throughout the 20th Century. But there is no real precedent for a tsunami like this in the Indian Ocean. So this is the first time this has happened, and there is no warning system as far as I know in the Indian Ocean."


Source:

BBC News. How the Tsunami happened.

Fifi le Beau
January 12, 2005 - 08:52 pm
Tigerliley, I would be interested also to know who wrote the piece titled, "Weeping over the Grave of God". It says in the title that it is part two that you posted, and I would like to read the entire article.

Thanks,

Fifi

Fifi le Beau
January 12, 2005 - 10:41 pm
Durant writes, The contact with Persia promoted both pederasty and purdah in Islam.

Pederasty is not a word that I have encountered often in years of reading, and I was sure I knew the definition, but I looked it up anyway. Pederasty is defined by my dictionary as the following: one that practices anal intercourse especially with a boy.

I always knew that it related to male homosexuality, but I didn't equate it with boys necessarily. Those Persians got around because on the other side of their boundary is Afghanistan. I always read the latest dispatches from Afghanistan, and in the last one pederasty was discussed. It seems that every war lord or tribal chief in the Pashtun area have a bevy of young boys with them that are their sexual slaves. The American soldiers said their area had a saying and I paraphrase, 'A bird who flies over the area only uses one wing, he uses the other to cover his behind.'

Purdah was defined by Durant as seclusion, confinement, and imprisonment. I would consider it a prison, where the eunuchs were the guards. The eunuchs could not have been happy about their own situation, having recently been castrated. Who would the women object to about their imprisonment, when the only male they saw was their jailer? That jailer could be described as their husband, pimp, or slaver. Escape would have been their only option, and it would have been mine.

The muslims saw plenty of women. They had wives, concubines, slaves, daughters, mothers, sisters, and other close family relations. They also saw all the young girls who were not veiled before they reached the age of 10. Mohammed selected his best friends six year old daughter for a wife. The Saudi Arabian King Abdul Aziz ibn Saud saw his favorite wife when she was a little girl under the same circumstances. He married her when she was twelve or thirteen and she had a child at fourteen who died. She was in mourning so long he divorced her.

King Abdul Aziz ibn Saud of Saudi Arabia had many slave girls who entertained him during his afternoon nap. Lacey writes that he and his friends and relatives would sit around and discuss every physical detail and attribute of the slave girls who were sometimes passed around to his closest associates. He says that they were as pornographic in their descriptions as any anywhere. King Abdul died in 1953 still looking for the perfect aphrodisiac.

At one time, the men in Syria forbade the women to leave the house, and even removed their shoes. Soon all the shoemakers of women shoes were out of business. One woman bragged in old age that she had never left her house since her marriage. What a barrel of fun she must have been.

Islam is a mans religion, so much so that Durant says they barred women from the mosque. Where were the women?

In prison of course.

Fifi

Justin
January 12, 2005 - 11:37 pm
Weep no tears over the Grave of God. Sing praises for Copernicus, Gallileo, Darwin, Einstein, and others who have been able to explain the ways of nature. Foster the growth of new science giants. Protect and encourage high school science teachers who emphasize the scientific method over religious beliefs as explanation for natural phenomena. Stand, publicly, on the side of Scopes and weep no tears over the "Grave of God."

robert b. iadeluca
January 13, 2005 - 04:15 am
Durant contines:-

"The education of girls, in most ranks of the population, seldom went beyond learning their prayers, a few chapters of the Koran, and the arts of the home.

"In the upper classes women received considerable instruction, usually by private tutors, but sometimes in schools and colleges. They learned poetry, music, and many varieties of needlework. Some became scholars, even teachers. Several were famous for enlightened philanthropy.

"They were taught a brand of modesty adapted to their customs. Surprised at the bath, they would cover their faces first. They marveled at the immodesty of European women who bared half their bosoms at a ball and embraced divers men in a dance. And they admired the forbearance of a God who did not strike such sinners dead.

"As in most civilized countries, marriages were usually arranged by the parents. The father might marry his daughter to whomever he wished before she became of age. After that she might choose.

"Girls were usually married by the age of twelve and were mothers at thirteen or fourteen. Some married at nine or ten. Men married as early as fifteen.

"The betrothal, or marriage contract, pledged the groom to give her a dowry. This remained her property through marriage and divorce. The groom was rarely allowed to see the face of his bride before marriage.

"The wedding followed eight or ten days after the betrothal. It required no priest but was accomplished by brief prayers. It involved music, feasting, a 'shower' of gifts and gay illumination of the bridegroom's steet and house.

"After many ceremonies the husband in the privacy of the bridal chamber drew aside the veil of his wife and said:-'In the name of God the Compassionate, the Merciful.'"

I see many of today's customs in Western civilization similar to those mentioned here.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
January 13, 2005 - 04:52 am
Speaking of MEN-WOMEN RELATIONSHIPS?

Robby

tigerliley
January 13, 2005 - 07:04 am
The article I posted about Religion, God, and the tsunami was written by "John Shelby Spong", He is Episcopalian I believe and a Bishop in that church......His writings of course are very controversial...I lean toward his way of thinking.........

Bubble
January 13, 2005 - 07:13 am
Robby, from your article, a girl should look good but act stupid! My daughter here agrees totally with this article and says she prefers to be her intelligent self to playing stupid just to catch a husband.

Éloïse De Pelteau
January 13, 2005 - 07:57 am
You can't argue with Maureen Dawd, she is one smart cookie.

Malryn (Mal)
January 13, 2005 - 08:15 am

That Times Op-Ed article was mild for Maureen Dowd. It all boils down to the old idea that somebody has to go out and earn a lving, and somebody has to stay home and wash the dishes and scrub the floors and clean the bathroom and take care of the kids. These days a man or woman or both can stay at home and do these things and earn a living working at a computer at the same time. If a man wants a maid with a little hot dilly-dallying on the side, let him hire one.

Tigerliley, can you copy and paste the URL of the Spong article to this discussion so we can read all of it? If you can, SeniorNet's program will turn it into a link.

Mal

monasqc
January 13, 2005 - 08:26 am
Mohammed permitted polygamy to protect the chastity of women who outnumbered men in reason of the deadly wars that prevailed at the time. Fatima was the first to wear the veil because of her outstanding beauty. She would not have survived. This information, I have from a renown Indian scholar, M. Shrivastava.

The most important thing a women can give is her love.

Françoise

tigerliley
January 13, 2005 - 11:01 am
Mal that was the whole article on that particular day......I will go to the web site and see what I can come up with.........

robert b. iadeluca
January 13, 2005 - 02:13 pm
Here is the latest regarding SCIENCE AND EVOLUTION.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
January 13, 2005 - 03:06 pm

Why do people persist in doing these things? Because the earth is flat?

Mal

Shasta Sills
January 13, 2005 - 03:52 pm
Fifi, I think you're missing the point when you call these harems prisons. Those women didn't seem to mind that lifestyle at all. Is there any record that any of them objected or tried to avoid this life? If you and I had been shut up in a harem, we would be plotting how to get out of there, and planning to poison the master of the house on the way out. But the thing that bothers me is that they seemed perfectly happy to live in harems. I guess they were so brainwashed that they didn't know there was any other way to live.

robert b. iadeluca
January 13, 2005 - 04:31 pm
Does a lion who was born in captivity plot ways to escape? Or does he just pace back and forth in his cage, look at the visitors, and eat when lunch time comes?

Robby

tigerliley
January 13, 2005 - 04:46 pm
Mal here is the URL for the Spong piece...http://www.beliefnet.com/.On the left side of the page is a blue section with columnist listed.....click on that and it will take you to all who write for this site.....When click on him all his articles come up.......very interesting reading........

Persian
January 13, 2005 - 06:29 pm
Here is a link to an article about the diversity among Iraqi women - from their own standpoint. I particularly liked the illustration of how cell phones are compatible with women wearing chadors.

This article reminds me of a Persian woman I knew many years ago in Iran, who wore the full chador in public Her husband was a university professor. However, the woman was the owner, President and CEO of one of the largest (and most successful) construction companies in Iran, which she ran from her large and well appointed home office. Her sister (who had an accounting and business administration degree) was the CFO. Her Board of Directors were all women - many of whom had invested their own funds in the company. ALL of the women had university degrees and were quite successful in their own fields. They all donated their annual zakat to help improve the lives of women of lesser means. Several of the women were wealthy enough in their own right to provide annual college scholarships for young women who wished to study in Europe or the USA.

http://www.charlotte.com/mld/observer/news/10632287.htm

Fifi le Beau
January 13, 2005 - 08:07 pm
Shasta, I agree and we would both probably have had our head on a platter for plotting. The eunuchs ran these operations and their job was to report everything.

As I said in my post, who would she ask for her freedom? The only man she saw was the man who had bought her and he wasn't about to lose on his investment.

Robby asks,does a lion who was born in captivity plot ways to escape? If given an opening, I would say yes, more on instinct than plotting. These women were not born in the harem unless they were marrying their own daughters and committing incest. So until they were married off these young girls did have some freedom.

We have read in SOC of wives, concubines, eunuchs, and slaves plotting and successfully ridding themselves of the 'one' man who ruled over them like a prison warden, so anything is possible.

Fifi

Justin
January 13, 2005 - 10:49 pm
The elctions in Irag are a wonderful opportunity for women to gain some measure of representation in their government. I hope that women who are elected are able to act independently and not as front people for the mullahs.

robert b. iadeluca
January 14, 2005 - 02:41 am
"In the privacy of the bridal chamber, the groom drew aside the veil of his wife. If this belated examination left the groom dissatisfied, he might at once send the wife back to her parents with her dowry.

"Polygamy in Islam was more often successive than simultaneous. Only the rich could afford plural wives. Facility of divorce made it possible for a Moslem to have almost any number of successive mates.

"Ali had 200. Ibn al-Teiyib, a dyer of Baghdad who lived to be eighty-five, is reported to have married 900 wives.

"In addition to wives, a Moslem might have any number of concubines. Harun contented himself with 200, but al-Mutawakkil, we are told, had 4000, each of whom shared his bed for a night. Some slave merchants trained female slaves in music, song, and sexual seduction and then sold them as concubines for as much as 100,000 dirhems ($80,000).

"But we must not think of the usual harem as a private brothel. In most cases the concubines became mothers, and prided themslves on the number and gender of their children. There were many instances of tender affection between master and concubine. Legal wives accepted concubinage as a matter of course. Zobaida, wife of Harun, presented him with ten concubines. In this way a man's household might contain as many children as an American suburb. A son of Walid I had sixty sons and an unrecorded number of daughters.

"Eunuchs, forbidden by the Koran, became a necessary appendage to the harem. Christians and Jews participated in importing or manufacturing them. Caliphs, viziers, and magnates paid high prices for them. Soon these cunning castrati subjected many phases of Moslem government to their narrow competence.

"In the early centuries after the conquest, this harem system prevented the Arabs from being ethnically absorbed by the conquered population, and multiplied them to a number needed to rule their spreading realm.

"Possibly it had some eugenic effect from the free fertility of the ablest men. But after Mamun polygamy became a source of moral and physical deterioration, and -- as mouths grew faster than food -- of increasing poverty and discontent."

What is that Chinese word indicating two women (or more) under the same roof?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
January 14, 2005 - 03:34 am
Are ARABS that different from us?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
January 14, 2005 - 03:40 am
Legitimate promiscuity. The bull and its cows. A woman in the same situation would be called a slut and drawn, quartered and hung.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
January 14, 2005 - 03:55 am
Is MORALITY relative?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
January 14, 2005 - 04:25 am

When my marriage ended I played around. I was free. I could do anything I wanted to. The fact was that I was looking for something, which I know now was what I'd had.

The trouble with all that fun-and-games was I couldn't live with myself. Though I didn't know it at the time, I had built up my own morality throughout my life. When I went against it I suffered. I can't speak generally about morality because for me it is such a very personal thing.

Mal

Bubble
January 14, 2005 - 04:57 am
Reading of eunuchs reminded me of castrati. Were the eunuchs voices ever used for entertainment?

robert b. iadeluca
January 14, 2005 - 05:16 am
All you ever wanted to know but were afraid to ask about EUNUCHS.

Robby

Bubble
January 14, 2005 - 10:09 am
About faith and its influence

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=585&e=3&u=/nm/20050114/sc_nm/science_mind_dc

Shasta Sills
January 14, 2005 - 10:20 am
Robby, that's more than I ever wanted to know about Morality or Eunuchs either one. Although the eunuchs were a little bit more interesting than all that morality.

robert b. iadeluca
January 14, 2005 - 06:33 pm
"The position of woman within marriage was one of sacred subjection. She could have only one husband at a time, and could divorce him only at considerable cost. The infidelities of her husband were quite byond her ken, and were accounted morally negligible. Her own infidelity was punishable with death.

"It is remarkable how many adulteries she managed to commit despite her handicaps. She was reviled and revered -- belittled and suppressed -- and in most cases was loved with passion and tenderness.

"Said Abu'l Atiyya:-'For my wife I will gladly renounce all the prizes of life and all the wealth of the world.' Such professions were frequent and sometimes sincere.

"In one matter the Moslem wife was favored as compared with some European women. Whatever property she received was wholly at her disposal, not subject to any claims of her husband or his creditors. Within the security of the Zenana she spun, wove, sewed, managed the household and the children, played games, ate sweets, gossiped and intrigued.

"She was expected to bear many children, as economic assets in an agricultural and patriarchal society. The estimation in which she was held depended chiefly upon her fertility. Said Mohammed:-'A piece of old matting lying in a corner is better than a barren wife.'

"Nevertheless abortion and contraception were widely practiced in the harem. Midwives transmitted ancient techniques, and physicians offered new ones.

"Al-Razi (d.924) included in his Quintessence of Experience a section 'on the means of preventing conception,' and listed twenty-four, mechanical or chemical. Ibn Sina (Avicenna, 980-1037) in his famous Qanum, gave twenty contraceptive recipes."

Sacred subjection? Makes me think of the Queen Bee who is actually a fertile slave.

Robby

3kings
January 14, 2005 - 07:51 pm
I am confused, and I think Durant and other commentators are also. In one paragraph he tells us that the worth of a woman was measured in her fertility. ( one guy was said to fathered 60 odd children.) Then in another section he tells how contraception was practiced, and doctors were pressured to find new measures.

It would seem that fertility was not so universally admired as many writers supposed. ++ Trevor

Bubble
January 15, 2005 - 02:52 am
Fertility is much desired by males and openly admired.

The women on the other hand have a different opinion and most do not wish for a new child every year. It makes for a hard life and ruins the figure after a time. Hence they pass along the knowledge for abortions while pressuring their mid-wives or doctors for more reliable means. This often happens behind the back of their righful husband.

It is not confusing at all!

robert b. iadeluca
January 15, 2005 - 04:43 am
"In nonsexual morals the Mohammedan did not differ appreciably from the Christian.

"The Koran more definitely denounced gambling and intoxication (v.90). But some gambling and much drinking continued in both civilizations. Corruption in government and judiciary flourished in Islam as in Christendom.

"In general the Moslem seems to hve excelled the Christian in commercial morality, fidelity to his word, and loyalty to treaties signed. Saladin was by common consent the best gentleman of the Crusades. The Moslems were honest about lying. They allowed a lie to save a life, to patch up a quarrel, to please a wife, to deceive in war the enemies of the faith.

"Moslem manners were both formal and genial, and Moslem speech was heavy with compliments and polite hyperbole. Like the Jews, the Moslems greeted one another with a solemn bow and salutation:-'Peace (salaam) be with you' and the proper reply of every Moslem was:-'On you be peace, and the mercy and blessings of God.'

"Hospitality was universal and generous. Cleanliness was a function of income. The poor were neglected and encrusted, the well-to-do wee scrubbed, manicured, and perfumed. Circumcision, though not mentioned in the Koran, was taken for granted as a precaution of hygiene. Boys underwent the operation at five or six.

"Private baths were a luxury of the rich but public bathhouses were numerous. Baghdad in the tenth century. we are told, had 27,000.

"Perfumes and incense were popular with men as well as with women. Arabia was famous of old for its frankincense and myrrh. Persia for its oil of roses, or violets or jasmine.

"Gardens of shrubs, flowers, and fruit trees were attached to many homes and flowers were loved, above all in Persia, as the very fragrance of life."

Your comments, please?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
January 15, 2005 - 05:37 am
Speaking of women, marriage, and children, this ARTICLE from today's NY Times fits right in.

Robby

Bubble
January 15, 2005 - 06:57 am
I wonder if the management of the NY Times follows our discussion in SoC and tries to fit in articles of interest? lol It is happening so often...

This last one is right along what my unmarried daughter says: who has time for children when trying to make a career, and moreover who would want to bring them into this disrupted world. I have no answer for her.

monasqc
January 15, 2005 - 07:52 am
Thank you Robert for the N.Y. Times David Brooks's article. How it is true! the dilemma for a women to choose between having children or a career. At the end of my college years, I pounded the question relentlessly until finally, I chose to have children first. My heart was right; I give thanks for that decision every day. The perspective of granting motherhood enlightening value could change the Western mentality. What do you think?

Françoise

Éloïse De Pelteau
January 15, 2005 - 08:18 am
The reason for having many children in Muslim countries, then and perhaps now too, is for the purpose of war which kills more men than women. Females were mostly used to produce male offsprings, keep the house in order while staying out of sight. If she could not be fertile for any reason whatever, she was cast off.

When the news tells us about suicide bombings, how different is it today? The Muslim population increases at a fast rate and war is very much on their agenda, what does that tell us?

robert b. iadeluca
January 15, 2005 - 09:46 am
Here is a CHART WITH STATISTICS comparing the Muslim to Christian population. Note in particular the projected drop in Christians in the next generation and the tremendous increase in Muslims in the same period.

Robby

Shasta Sills
January 15, 2005 - 10:16 am
I love to hear Eloise and Francoise speak. They speak perfect English but always with a subtle French flavor. You always know you are listening to Frenchwomen speaking.

And isn't it wonderful that the arrow button is working again! I apologize to the technicians for all those mean things I said about them!

robert b. iadeluca
January 15, 2005 - 10:20 am
You are right about Eloise and Francoise, Shasta. And we are so pleased to have them here!

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
January 15, 2005 - 12:16 pm
Shasta, Robby, thank you. I wanted to say something about what my daughter said but didn't want to butt in. Françoise and I both had our children in our twenties and when we reached the 40s, they were almost all grown up. She has a good career now while she is still young enough to enjoy it for a long time. We speak French at home and I am loosing my English little by little, unfortunately for lack of use.

robert b. iadeluca
January 15, 2005 - 12:54 pm
"How did these people amuse themselves? Largely with feasting, venery in both senses, flirtation, poetry, music, and songs. To which the lower orders added cockfights, ropedancers, jugglers, magicians, puppets.

"We find from Avicenna's Qanun that the Moslems of the tenth century had nearly all the sports and physical foibles of our time -- boxing, wrestling, running, archery, throwing the javelin, gymnastics, fencing, riding, polo, croquet, weight lifting and ball playing with mallet, hockey stick, or bat.

"Games of chance being forbidden, cards and dice were not much used. Backgammon was popular. Chess was allowed, though Mohammed had denounced the carving of the pieces in the likeness of men.

"Horse racing was popular, and was patronized by the caliphs. In one program, we are informed, 4000 horses took part. Hunting remained the most aristocratic of sports, less violent than in Sasanian times, and often subsiding into falconry.

"Captured animals were sometimes used as pets. Some families had dogs, others monkeys. Some caliphs kept lions or tigers to awe subjects and ambassadors."

Just like us? So we are not that different?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
January 15, 2005 - 03:39 pm
Here is an ARTICLE of interest to those of us here who read Durant's first volume, "Our Oriental Heritage."

Robby

Justin
January 15, 2005 - 04:58 pm
War is damaging for archeological sites as well as women, children and participants. Let's just knock it all off as quickly as possible and consistent with a peaceful take over.

robert b. iadeluca
January 15, 2005 - 06:34 pm
We've been talking about the condition of Muslim women. Here is the LATEST about women in America. Take your choice.

Robby

Fifi le Beau
January 15, 2005 - 08:01 pm
This article has Muslims killing Christians, Muslims killing Muslims, genocide, racism, and ethnic cleansing along with a personal story of the devastating loss of home and family while running for your life.

Dying in Darfur

Fifi

Justin
January 15, 2005 - 08:06 pm
The tragic flaw that extends to the whole person is nonsense but the vagaries of public opinion are such that man is ok after a screw-up and woman must pay the full penalty. It is an extention of Sharia and the morality of the Bible.

I predict that women will continue to find it necessary to cope with a Christian dominated public opinion for some time to come. This narrow view of the world and of people will, I fear, deprive us of the services of many talented women in the years to come. It's nice that a fat actress can be sold to a fatuous audience but it's a trivial gain in the overall problem of women's welfare.

Justin
January 15, 2005 - 08:31 pm
Thanks FiFi: I never quite understood the Sudan problem but I now have a better grasp of the issues. It, as always, in civil wars, is complex.

robert b. iadeluca
January 16, 2005 - 07:26 am
Some thoughts on ARAB-AMERICAN RELATIONS.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
January 16, 2005 - 07:45 am
"When the Arabs conquered Syria they were still half-barbarous tribes, recklessly brave, violent, sensual, passionate, superstitious, and skeptical. Islam softened some of these qualities but most of them survived.

"Probably the cruelties recorded of the caliphs were no worse in total than those of contemporary Christian kings, Byzantine, Merovingian, or Norse. But they were a disgrace to any civilization.

"In 717 Suleiman, on pilgrimage to Mecca, invited his courtiers to try their swords on 400 Greeks recently captured in war. The invitation was accepted and the 400 men were beheaded in merry sport as the Caliph looked on.

"Al-Mutawakkil, enthroned, cast into prison a vizier who had, some years before, treated him with indignity. For weeks the prisoner was kept awake to the point of insanity. Then he was allowed to sleep for twenty-four hours. So strengthened, he was placed between boards lined with spikes, which prevented his moving without self-laceration. So he lay in agony for days until he died.

"Such savagery, of course, was exceptional. Normally the Moslem was the soul of courtesy, humanity, and tolerance. He was, if we may describe the mythical average, quick of apprehension and wit, excitable and lazy, easily amused and readily cheerful -- finding content in simplicity, bearing misfortune calmly, accepting all events with patience, dignity, and pride.

"Starting on a long journey, the Moslem took his grave linen with him, prepared at any time to meet the Great Scavenger. Overcome in the desert by exhaustion or disease, he would bid the others go on, would perform his final ablutions, hollow out a pit for his grave, wrap himself in his winding sheet, lie down in the trench, and wait for the coming of death, and a natural burial by the wind-blown sands."

So the question remains. Is the Arab/Moslem like any of us, Christian or otherwise, or not?

Robby

Bubble
January 16, 2005 - 08:49 am
We are all the same: part of the human race. But we are shaped by our surroundings and education, by the times we live in.

We know of the "savagery of Arabs" from those writings. Are there any writings about the behavior of crusaders or other big groups of that time? Would they show a similar image?

robert b. iadeluca
January 16, 2005 - 08:56 am
Bubble:-I'm sure as we move through the Medieval Ages that Durant will tell us about that too.

Robby

kidsal
January 17, 2005 - 05:35 am
There will be ceremonies this week to remember those lost in the Holocaust 60 years ago. No, we haven't changed -- Rawanda, Sudan ====

robert b. iadeluca
January 17, 2005 - 05:44 am
Kidsal -- Nice to hear from you!! Keep sharing your thoughts with us.

Robby

tigerlily3
January 17, 2005 - 02:34 pm
If this be true how sad.....The Egyptian family in New Jersey may have been killed by radical Muslims.......the family were Coptic Christians..a piece in the N.Y. Times this morning....as well as on the news this afternoon.......F.B.I. investigating.......

3kings
January 17, 2005 - 02:52 pm
NANCY Indeed, it is the crime ( your report of the killing of Egyptian Christians ) that is a terrible thing. It is not made worse ( or better, for that matter) by the political leanings of the killers.

Criminal acts are just that-- crimes. And they are equally reprehensible, no matter who commits them.... +++Trevor

robert b. iadeluca
January 17, 2005 - 05:31 pm
Welcome to our discussion group, Nancy. Share with us your views. Our ground rules here are simple. We respect the opinions of others and show courtesy and consideration. We do not proselytize our own religion and try to stay away from comments on current political figures.

Robby

moxiect
January 17, 2005 - 05:33 pm


Just dropping in to let you all know I am following with great interest.

robert b. iadeluca
January 17, 2005 - 05:34 pm
The Government

robert b. iadeluca
January 17, 2005 - 05:44 pm
"Theoretically, in the generation after Mohammed, Islam was a democratic republic in the ancient sense:--all free adult males were to share in choosing the ruler and determining policy.

"Actually the Commander of the Faithful was chosen, and policy was decided, by a small group of notables in Medina. This was to be expected. Men being by nature unequal in intelligence and scruple, democracy must at best be relative. In communities with poor communication and limited schooling some form of oligarcy is inevitable.

"Since war and democracy are enemies, the expansion of Islam promoted one-man rule. Unity of command and quickness of decision were required by a martial and imperialist policy.

"Under the Umayyads the government became frankly monarchical, and the caliphate was transmitted by succession or trial of arms.

"Again theoretically, the caliphate was a religious rather than a political office. The caliph was first of all the head of a religious group, Islam. His primary duty was to defend the faith. In theory, the caliphate was a theocracy, a government by God through religion.

"The caliph, however, was not a pope or a priest, not could he issue new decrees of the faith. In practice he enjoyed nearly absolute power, limited by no parliament, no hereditary aristocracy, no priesthood, but only by the Koran -- which his paid pundits could interpret at his will.

"Under this despotism there was some democracy of opportunity. Any man might rise to high office unless both his parents were slaves."

A democracy? And does everyone agree that "war and democracy are enemies?"

Robby

Justin
October 17, 2004 - 09:05 am
Yes, war and democracy are enemies. The Romans thought so too and as a result resorted to dictatorships until the war ended. In the US with our bicameral legislature and our three legged government, we are seriouly hampered in our ability to wage war. We attempted to offset that limitation by granting the President special war powers during such times.

Justin
January 17, 2005 - 06:26 pm
Equally challenging is what Durant had to say about limited schooling and poor communication making some form of oligarchy inevitable. I countries such as Afghanistan where 90% or more of the population is illiterate and cell phones have not replaced signal fires, no one knows what is going on in the central cities nor could folks care that one Caliph or another has risen to power. As a result, an elite arises, and controls, in this case out of a religion but the elite could have arisen out of tribal hierarchies as well.

robert b. iadeluca
January 17, 2005 - 06:34 pm
This ARTICLE refers to an "inherent" difference between men and women. May I suggest that our reactions be in the light of what Durant is telling us about Arab Moslems and their attitude toward women.. This will help us to continue within the topic of Islam.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
January 17, 2005 - 07:08 pm

Though I do believe there are innate differences between men and women - some of which we don't really know yet - in the environment where Summers was speaking he'd have been better off if he'd kept his mouth shut.

Mal

Persian
January 17, 2005 - 07:20 pm
ROBBY - it may be helpful to this discussion to occasionally offer a reminder that although Durant has taken us through the beginnings of Islam and the Arab cultures of the period of the Prophet, it may also be of interest to posters who are not familiar with the religion or the Arab culture to note that in contemporary society there are still families who treasure their daughters; wives who are extremely well treated (loved, respected and admired); sons who respect and admire their mothers almost beyond belief; and husbands/fathers who are extremely proud of their female family members.

BUBBLE had a wonderful reply to your earlier question - "are Arab/Muslims like us?" I asked my husband, an Egyptian Muslim, who arrived a few days ago to take a short break in the USA during his University's Spring vacation, to read some of the most recent posts. His comment was simple: "alongside the information provided by the author (Durant), and the media frenzy to portray Arabs and Muslims as terrorists, I hope the SN participants in this discussion also appreciate that there are many in the Arab world (Muslims and Christians) who enjoy (and cultivate) extremely close family relations; who have wonderful long-term friendly relationships with people of other religions and ethnic backgrounds; deeply love their daughters (as well as their sons); are enormously proud of the professional careers of their female relatives in a diversity of fields. Not all Arab Muslim women are down-troddern!"

My husband also laughed when he wondered out loud if anyone here knew "the real behavior of Arab women within their families? How very strong and demanding they can be? How much they are respected and their opinions taken into full consideration when discussing family issues?" He has always been puzzled why Westerners cannot get past Arab/Muslim women wearing a chador? He has aksed several times "are Westerners as consumed with Eastern European women (i.e. Russians) wearing head scarves? Or African women? Or American Amish women who also cover their hair?"

JUSTIN: I don't think it will be too long before cell phone are more prominent among Afghan women. Several of my Afghan female friends in Washington DC have recently begun negotiating with a manufacturer to arange for several thousand donated cell phones for women in Afghanistan and the yearly pre-paid cards.These same women are also hot on the trail of donated electronic schedulers (Blackberrys). It's amazing what can be concealed under chadori. And on this point, I speak from personal experience!

Malryn (Mal)
January 17, 2005 - 09:02 pm

MAHLIA, how can you or Mohammed know if every woman in Arab-Muslim countries behave, think and feel the way Arab-Muslim women do in Egypt?

Mal

Jan Sand
January 18, 2005 - 12:19 am
Although there are religious implications in this discussion, essentially it is a matter of physiological and probably psychological facts that there are differences between men and women. Purportedly, Islam in its early proclamations, claimed social equality between the sexes but it seems that cultural differences have dominated and men have most usually treated women as property rather than equals. It is obvious that Jewish and Christian tradition is no less guilty in relegating women to a secondary role and although this frequently parades as a kind of protection of women there is no doubt that women in almost all human societies (with notable exceptions for exceptional women)are not treated on a basis of equality.

In a recent interview Desmond Morris (The Naked Ape) proposed that in primitive societies men were allocated the task of hunting and probably war (as both required expertise in weaponry) while women took over almost all other tasks such as procreation and raising and educating children, agricuture, creating and using household instruments, etc. Even though a huge number of men, even today, are foremost in the arts, there is a kind of feminine quality attriuted to artists. Women, therefor, probably were the more creative sector of humanity, at least in the beginning. It is assumed that men were the creators of the wonderful cave paintings. I wonder about that. And I wonder about the female participation in music and the creation of writing.

There are incidences in the discoveries of atomic fission and in the working out of DNA that indicate that the women involved have not been given proper credit. I have read of many women who later became prominent scientists who have had to struggle far more than was warranted by their capabilities in comparison to men to gain recognition. So even intelligent men today retain these prejudices.

Justin
January 18, 2005 - 12:51 am
Mahlia: You know the chador is only a symbol of suppression, as was the wig among Russian Jewish women, the hat in Church among Catholic women, the upstairs seating among Jewish women, the habit on nuns. These are only the outside trappings of male dominated societies.

In the US, male domination has been challenged and the symbols of submission are slowly disappearing. Yet, many of the real elements of male domination, continue to restrict the role of women in society.

We know that the role of the woman in a chador in Afghanistan, Iraq, Egypt etc. is quite strong in the home though weak publicly. We know that men the world over fall in love with women, love their mothers, sisters, and that in many cases the chador is seen as a means of protection for a much loved female. But that does not change the fact that women are suppressed. They are suppressed more in some societies than in others but they are suppressed.

Unfortunately not all women feel the same about suppression. Some feel comfortable in the role, and others who have broken through do not seem to want all to have the same opportunities. However, slowly but surely, women will become stronger.

Jan Sand
January 18, 2005 - 01:09 am
The frequently asserted conviction that the restrictions on women are for their own protection is mostly unexamined. It seems to be accepted that women should be protected so that men can have free rein on their uncivilized immature emotional outages. The permission of society to allow this kind of mind set to exist seems not to be questioned. The undeveloped capability of men towards self control in many societies is unquestioned and perhaps this is the foundation of the unthinking reactions of many male dominated societies towards violence (including our own). Obviously civilization requires severe upgrading.

Bubble
January 18, 2005 - 02:19 am
"the chador is only a symbol of suppression, as was the wig among Russian Jewish women"

Justin, the wig is always worn by Eshkenazi religious married women and nowadays by very many Sephardi religious married women as well. They don't see it as a symbol of suppression but as a proud proof of their religious worthiness or as a sign of being an accepted part of that community.

Since it is so well accepted, the custom is not about to disappear. A cousin last month was very proud to go and buy her first wig prior to her wedding the following week.

robert b. iadeluca
January 18, 2005 - 03:33 am
This may seem like a nonsensical oxymoronic type of question but I ask it. Is it possible that a woman could be "proud of her suppression?"

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
January 18, 2005 - 04:20 am
Here is an ARTICLE about Christian-Moslem tensions in America.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
January 18, 2005 - 04:34 am
Here is the latest on the Harvard President's remarks about WOMEN.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
January 18, 2005 - 06:02 am

I think it's possible that women can be proud of their culture. If that culture includes signs of submission, they are accepted because they always have been. I remember the days when Protestant women said, "I wouldn't be caught dead in church without a hat" when men weren't required to wear one. In fact, there was an unspoken competition among these women for the prettiest, best-decorated hat. That was their culture.



I've been reading about the Jersey City murders and am wondering about proof. There's no proof yet that Muslims killed that family. The tattooed crosses on the wrists of the family members were not slashed, and that was one of the clues police were looking for. There was a robbery. If this had been a religion-provoked murder, would there have been a robbery? It seems to me that Islam has been made an enemy in this country just as Communism was in the Cold War. At that time when anything negative happened it had to have been done by a Communist. What's happened to "a man is innocent until he's proven guilty?"



About the fuss about Summers' comments at Harvard: He stated that he was there to provoke his audience, to make them think.

It's my opinion that feminists often overreact. In her book, Last Gift of Time; Life Beyond Sixty Carolyn Heilbrun complained about being discriminated against at Columbia; said men received promotions and glory there while women didn't, and why wasn't she treated like Lionel Trilling, for example? Well, I checked out some of Heilbrun's work. As a teacher of women and promoter for equal rights for women she was superior. As a scholar, I don't think she was on a level with Trilling, and scholarship was how she and he were judged.

When women go out into the world and take jobs in fields that previously have been dominated by men, they must expect to receive the same kind of treatment that men receive; they must expect to do the same kind of job. That is, if you're a woman competing with the likes of J. Robert Oppenheimer, you must be prepared to do as well as he did or better. That's what's expected of a man, isn't it?

I often think that if women would stop spending so much time spouting off about feminism and put their energies into productive work, they'd see better results. I'm the kind of feminist who practices what I preach. I was raised by a woman who went out to work in a man's world every day all of her adult life, and it affected my attitude. She didn't make her money (more than her husband did) by staying home complaining about her rights or discrimination against her and other women. She did her job and suffered the same slings and arrows as a man did, and took her rewards when she deserved them.

Mal

Persian
January 18, 2005 - 02:55 pm
MAL - in response to your earlier question about my husband's comments about Arab/Muslim women: I don't believe he was attempting to speak about ALL Arab/Muslim women in various countries vs the behavior of Egyptian women. He was speaking about the general cultural behavior of the Arab/women whom he has known (his family members in Egypt and elsewhere), female university colleagues, female neighbors who are friends of his sisters, and the wives of friends in whose homes he has visited. We have Arab/Muslim women friends from several countries and from different socioeconomic backgrounds.

And although we are focusing on the Arab world at the moment, I might mention that the strength of women within the family among non-Arab Persians is similar. Throughout my own professional career, I have known many successful Persian Muslimas, who, like American women, married and raised a family while developing their professional careers. One of my American university colleagues (who has been the President of two colleges) always maintained that she came by her administrative and logistical skills from raising five children, teaching and easing into university administration simultaneously.

ROBBY - I wouldn't say that women are proud of their "submission," but in the Arab world, women EXPECT (and depend upon) a certain level of protection within the family. CErtainly in some cases - especially among older women who have not had the educational or travel opportuniteis of younger women, they may be less restive. And certainly within any culture there are differences among women, but we have already discussed those.

Scrawler
January 18, 2005 - 02:56 pm
Thank you Mahlia for your post #591. It reminded me of my own Greek background. As previously mentioned, my grandmother never left the house after she arrived in America in 1921 but she was very happy and my grandparents loved each other very much. When I was having problems with my own marriage in the late 1980s it was she who comforted me. I remember her saying that: "It was a sin against God for a husband not to care and cherish his wife."

robert b. iadeluca
January 18, 2005 - 05:06 pm
Durant continues:-

"The Arabs, rcognizing that they had conquered decadent but well-organized societies, took over in Syria the Byzantine, in Persia the Sasanian, administrative system. Essentially the old order of life in the Near East continued, and even the Hellenic-Oriental culture overleaping the barrier of language, revived in Moslem science and philosophy.

"Under the Abbasids a complex system of central, provincial, and local government took form, operated by a bureaucracy that suffered little interruption from royal assassinations and palace revolutions.

"At the head of the administrative structure was the hajib or chamberlain, who in theory merely managed ceremony, but in practice accumulated power by controlling entry to the caliph.

"Next in rank, but (after Mansur) superior in power, was the vizier, who appointed and supervised the officials of the government, and guided the policy of the state.

"The leading bureaus were those of taxation, accounts, correspondence, police, post, and a department of grievances, which became a court of appeal from judicial or administrative decisions.

"Next to the army in the caliph's affections was the bureau of revenue. Here all the pervasive pertinacity of the Byzantine tax collectors was emulated, and great sums were sluiced from the nation's economy to maintain the government and the governors. The annual revenue of the caliphate under Harun al-Rashid exceeded 530,000,000 dirhems ($42,400,000) in money, to which were added now incalcuable taxes in kind.

"There was no national debt. On the contrary, the treasury in 786 had a balance of 900,000,000 dirhems."

Robby

Justin
January 18, 2005 - 06:22 pm
I wish I could introduce Harun al Rashid to our present administrator in the US. Something might be learned about national debts which the previous administrator was aware of.

robert b. iadeluca
January 18, 2005 - 06:32 pm
That's pretty "sneaky", Justin!

Robby

Justin
January 18, 2005 - 07:10 pm
Yeah, Robby, it was. But we all need a little laugh now and then.

robert b. iadeluca
January 19, 2005 - 03:42 am
This ARTICLE tells about morality among Muslims. Are people alike everywhere?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
January 19, 2005 - 03:47 am
Once again it's CHURCH VS. STATE.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
January 19, 2005 - 04:32 am
"The law by which the great realm was ruled claimed to deduce itself from the Koran. In Islam, as in Judaism, law and religion were one. Every crime was a sin, every sin a crime. Jurisprudence was a branch of theology.

"As conquest extended the reach and responsibilities of Mohammed's impromptu legislation, and puzzled it with cases unforseen in the Koran, the Moslem jurists invented traditions that implicitly or explicitly met their need, hence the Hadith became a second source of Mohammedan law. By strange but repeated coincidence these useful traditions echoed the principles and judgments of Roman and Byzantine law, and still more of the Mishna or Gemara of the Jews.

"The growing mass and complexity of legal traditions gave sustenance and high status to the legal profession in Islam. The jurists (faqihs) who expounded or applied the law acquired by the tenth century almost the power and sanctity of a priestly class.

"As in twelfth-century France, they allied themselves with the monarchy, supported the absolutism of the Abbasids, and reaped rich rewards."

Your comments, please?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
January 19, 2005 - 06:31 am

"By voting out the BJP and its allies in the last election, the Indian voters have halted this slide ( toward religious nationalism ), at least for now - a heartening development, compared to the virtual take-over of America by Christian evangelicals and fundamentalists. The question that interests me in this electoral route to faith–based governance is how this counter–revolution is actually accomplished, or to put it differently, how the spirit of secularism gets subverted, without any formal abrogation of secular laws."

"There is a modernising impulse in all religions to make the supposedly timeless truths of theology acceptable to the modern minds raised on a scientific sensibility."

"As an old–time partisan of the Enlightenment and scientific temper, I have been watching with concern as my fellow intellectuals and activists, in the United States and India, who identify themselves with social justice, anti–imperialism, women’s rights and sustainable development, have themselves paved the way for re–enchantment or re–sacralisation of science."

"Recall how double–think worked in (George Orwell's) 1984: Words came to mean their opposites: war meant peace, freedom was slavery, and ignorance strength. History was endlessly revised to make the present look like a confirmation of eternal, unchanging truths. Words, representations, facts ceased to mean what they appeared to be saying. Shorn of any definite and contestable meanings, words began to be used interchangeably, hybridised endlessly, without any fear of contradictions."

"Long ago, Julien Benda wrote in his La Trahison De Clercs, that when intellectuals betray their calling — that is, when intellectuals begin to exalt the particular over the universal, the passions of the multitude over the moral good — then there is nothing left to prevent a society’s slide into tribalism and violence. Postmodernism represents a treason of the clerks which has given intellectual respectability to reactionary religiosity. With the best intentions of giving marginalised social groups — especially if they were women and if they belonged to the non–western world —the right to their own ways of knowing, western academics, in alliance with populist Third Worldist intellectuals, have succeeded in painting science and modernity as the enemy of the people."

More of this:

Intellectual Treason by Meera Nanda

Fifi le Beau
January 19, 2005 - 12:58 pm
From the last sentence in Mal's excerpt. ...the right to their own ways of knowing, Western academics, in alliance with populist third world intellectuals, have succeeded in painting science and modernity as the enemy of the people.

The third world intellectuals may have 'attempted' to paint science and modernity as the enemy of the people, but this article I just read this morning, and went back to find after reading the above, questions their success at least on modernity.

I agree these third worlders are attempting to paint science and modernity as the enemy, but give a man access to a gadget and it's all over for modernity. Is there any modern invention and convenience, new or old, that they have not embraced. I think not. The mullahs, emirs, kings, potentates, and ayatollahs all ride around in their air conditioned SUV's, use the latest video system to tape their rants against modernity to be aired on the one state controlled television. They transmit their programs through the latest sattelite or cable technology, oh well you get the picture.

Here is just one small sample of the 21st century meeting a country that teaches 7th century science.

Tour Mecca without leaving home

Fifi

Justin
January 19, 2005 - 02:20 pm
It has been quite clear since our examination of Sumeria, Akadia, and Assyria, that religion has been a most effective tool of government. Those rulers who have used the tool have used it to retain power. Marduk was one of the early gods used by Hammurabi to control the folks. Since then, a great variety of gods have been used by rulers to keep the folks in line.

Today the device is still very useful and God is as much a part of American crowd control as the Constitution. The art of playing the God card is indispensable to American politicians. It helps them to lie, get rich, smear one's opponents, cover up ignorance, and most importantly, to remain in office.

robert b. iadeluca
January 19, 2005 - 05:35 pm
A most enlightening link, Fifi. Apparently we need to see the East as it exists today and not how it was during the Medieval Ages.

Robby

moxiect
January 19, 2005 - 05:45 pm


Robbie,

To understand present MidEastern Third World Countries we need to understand their past.

robert b. iadeluca
January 19, 2005 - 06:19 pm
An article about MUSLIM AGAINST MUSLIM.

Robby

Fifi le Beau
January 19, 2005 - 08:12 pm
Justin, I agree that in America there are those who use God to promote their own selfish interests. Our government though is based on man made law that can be changed as long as it abides by the Constitution. We are forever adjusting our laws, sometimes for the better sometimes for the worse.

This is what Durant wrote about Islam and government which should serve as a warning to any government wishing to base its laws on writings of those who thought the earth was flat and that the sun revolved around the earth as only two examples of many fallacies.

Durant writes In Islam, as in Judaism, law and religion were one. Every crime was a sin, every sin a crime. Jurisprudence was a branch of theology.

Government is simply a set of laws to govern the people who live under those laws. Islam is unbending and inflexible, made so by Mohammed and the writers who actually wrote it. They took Arabian customs up to the 7th century and made them religious law. Since Arabia had no form of central government even until the Twentieth century, they used the Islamic religion as their law.

When jurisprudence is a branch of Dark Ages theology written in stone, there is little hope for change or moderation.

The separation of church and state is essential for government to adapt to the changing times. Can you imagine a president saying we are going to the moon within a decade in 1960 ruled by a religion written in the 1st century or the 7th century?

Fifi

Justin
January 19, 2005 - 10:46 pm
Fifi; I can't imagine a country ruled by theology achieving any economic or social advance to improve the lot of its citizens. But there are people, both those in power as well as those who are ruled who think that religion merged with the state is the only way to ensure that people live moral lives. Countries in which Sharia is the law of the land are worthy examples but countries ruled by secular laws are also vulnerable to abuse by religious power.

The US has been moving in that direction for many years and it is only now beginning to be noticeable. It is an insidious, creeping activity that if left alone will one day blend so well with the constitution that Supreme Court Justices will tell us that "God and Country" is the right order.

robert b. iadeluca
January 20, 2005 - 04:05 am
"We must concede that the early caliphs, from Abu Bekr to al-Mamun, gave successful organization to human life over a wide area and may be counted among the ablest rulers in history.

"They might have devastated or confiscated everything like the Mongols or the Magyars or the raiding Norse. Instead they merely taxed.

"When Omar conquered Egypt he rejected the advice of Zobeir to divide the land among his followers and the Caliph confirmed his judgment. Said Omar:-'Leave it in the people's hands to nurse and fructify.'

"Under the caliphal government lands were measured, records were systematically kept, roads and canals were multiplied or maintained, rivers were banked to prevent floods. Iraq, now half desert, was again a garden of Eden. Palestine, recently so rich in sand and stories, was fertile, wealthy, and populous.

"Doubtless the exploittion of simplicity and weakness by cleverness and strength went on under this system as under all governments but the caliphs gave reasonable protection to life and labor -- kept career open to talent -- promoted for three to six centuries the prosperity of areas never so prosperous again -- and stimulated and supported such a flourishing of education, literature, science, philosophy, and art as made western Asia, for five centuries, the most civilized region in the world."

That doesn't sound like the Islam of today.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
January 20, 2005 - 05:11 am

What bothers me is that we use "Islam" as a generic term for a lot of countries. Was the Iraq of Saddam Hussein the same as Saudi Arabia, Iran, Afghanistan or Egypt? Is our democracy the same as that in Israel? I maintain that there are differences in these Islamic dominated places and that there were differences among them in the past that we're not considering.

And this:

How can a woman live up to her full potential when she's hidden from public view?

Mal

Scrawler
January 20, 2005 - 11:16 am
The American government is supposed to be a government of the people by the people, but in reality it is a government by a "majority" of the people. What I want to know is what happens to those "peoples" who are not part of the "majority"?

Justin
January 20, 2005 - 03:08 pm
Minorites have rights in a parliamentary system. They have the right to be heard but not the power to set an agenda. They have the right to vote but not the power to carry. In the US Congress they are excluded from Agenda setting but because 2/3 is required for money bills their support is necessary for appropriations. The law of the land can be made without them but the law cannot be implemented without money. If the majority exceeds 2/3rds, forget about the minority. Its remaining asset is the bully pulpit.

Justin
January 21, 2005 - 12:40 am
The Inaugural Address includes language that indicates that American freedoms are dependent on freedom in the rest of the world. If I do not misread the Address, there is something wrong with that message. JFK said " Don't mess with us, we can be tough". Washington said, No foreign entanglements". The Romans achieved the Pax Romanum by protecting borders not by knocking out tyrants. I don't think I want to go where the country seems to be going. Isolationism is not possible today but interference is another matter.

robert b. iadeluca
January 21, 2005 - 03:29 am
The Cities

robert b. iadeluca
January 21, 2005 - 03:48 am
"Before searching out the men and the works that gave meaning and distinction to this civilization we must try to visualize the environment in which they lived.

"Civilization is rural in base but urban in form. Man must gather in cities to provie for one another audiences and stimuli.

"Moslem towns were nearly all of modest size, with 10,000 souls or less, cramped into a small and usually walled area for protection against raid or siege, with unlit streets of dust or mud, and little stucco houses hugging their privacy behind a forbvidding continuum of external wall. All the glory of the town was concentrated in the mosque.

"But here and there rose the cities in which Moslem civilization touched its sumiits of beauty, learning, and happiness.

"In Moslem sentiment both Mecca and Medina were holy cities, one as the seat of the ancient Arab shrine and the birthplace of the Prophet, the other as his refuge and home.

"Walid II rebuilt in splendor the modest mosque at Medina. At Walid's urging, and for 80,000 dinars, the Byzantine emperor sent forty loads of mosaic stones, and eighty craftsmen from Egypt and Greece. The Moslems complained tht their Prophet's mosque was being built by Christian infidels.

"Despite the Kaaba and this mosque, the two cities took on under the Umayyads an aspect of worldly pleasure and luxury that would have shocked the earlier caliphs, and must have gladdened the triumphant Quraish.

"The spoils of conquest had flowed into Medina, and had been distributed chiefly to its citizens. Pilgrims were coming to Mecca in greater number and with richer offerings than ever before, enormously stimulating trade. The holy cities became centers of wealth, leisure, gaiety, and song. Palaces and suburban villas housed an aristocracy surfeited with servants and slaves. Concubines accumulated, forbidden wine flowed, singers, strummed pleasantly sad melodies, and poets multiplied rhymes of war and love.

"At Medina the beautiful Suqainah, daughter of the martyred Husein, presided over a salon of poets, jurists, and statesmen. Her wit, charm, and good taste set a standard for all Islam. She could not count her successive husbands on her jeweled fingers. In some instances she made it a condition of marrige that she should retain full freedom of action.

"The Umayyad spirit of joie de vivre had conquered the abstemious puritanism of Abu Bekr and Omar in the most sacred centers of Islam."

A clash of wealth and the fundamentals of religion?

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
January 21, 2005 - 09:36 am
"Civilization is rural in base but urban in form. Man must gather in cities to provide for one another audiences and stimuli.”

How interesting this is. After the hunting stage, man cultivated land to grow food to sustain his physical being. Then after centuries of quasi stability in an area, they started to band together helping each other finding ways to live better longer. That meant not everybody going out hunting, risking life and limb while others were cultivating and others learning a trade. This process allowed for more comfort.

The urbanization process increased the lifespan with less people losing their life hunting and fighting enemies. After a time lapse, city folks needing stimuli developed their economic and artistic skills, while the military defended their cities.

Today with huge megapolies such as Mexico and Tokyo having upwards of 20 million people, less and less people are working in agriculture land providing food for people in cities. It seems that in America we feel that there will always be food on the shelves of our super markets. Commercial enterprises are becoming gigantic and their profit is counted in billions of dollars.

Technology has exacerbated this process, it has provided easy access by Internet to the best brains on earth spreading knowledge around and a teenager can become just as much an expert as those who have studied years and years.

There is no room for smallness anymore, even human beings are taller, bigger and their appetite for gigantism is unquenchable. Profits soar while populations are expected to dance to the tune of major corporations. The proportion of people benefiting from this gigantism is small and they have complete power over the 90% of the people at the bottom of the social ladder.

At this point the world has become unbalanced and it will rectify itself because it has always found ways to do this by means of diseases, wars, or natural disasters in all the civilizations we have studied in the Durant series. I don’t know what will happen, but it is not going to be pretty.

Fifi le Beau
January 21, 2005 - 11:48 am
Eloise, what a great post. I agree with your assessment, change is inevitable.

We have reached the point through weapon production to destroy most life on earth, on the other side we have a way to go to produce enough for much of the world to have the simple basics of life.

Even if we destroy most human life on earth, I predict the ant will survive and multiply. Perhaps as a mutant, but ruling the ground it walks on. I was invaded by ants last summer. A variety I had never seen before. I tried every environmental process known to rid my house of them.

A few warm days and they are back. I have resorted to other means with the help of my son who is on a search for the source. It may get rid of this particular colony, but insects are the most resourceful of all living things. In a survival of the fittest, they will win hands down.

Fifi

Scrawler
January 21, 2005 - 12:51 pm
Try sun tan oil for your ant problem. They are attracted to the smell and when they investigate it they get stuck in the oil. It's a harmless way of getting rid of the ants. Put the oil in the cracks of your counters etc. - just a very thin layer does the trick.

Malryn (Mal)
January 21, 2005 - 03:35 pm

If Gigantism is the trend today, why is so much being done on the nano scale?

ELOISE is talking in part about the Old vs the New. I don't share a hatred of corporations that are limited by all kinds of laws and guards, and whose umbrellas cover a lot of people who might well go under on their own. Nor do I dislike national governments as opposed to uncontrolled tribal ones.

I consider it a good thing that teenagers are exposed to knowledge on the World Wide Web. I consider it a good thing that seniors and anyone who owns a computer have the same opportunity. Saying these people will "become just as much an expert as those who have studied years and years" is inaccurate.

The word, "Technology" covers a lot of territory. What kind of technology? The kind that keeps people, who died like flies before, alive and well today?

If there is no "smallness" any more, what do you call the majority of people like you and me who do not breathe the air the very slim margin of rich people do?

I maintain that what's going on today has gone on for millennia, and that very, very little has basically changed. Back in primitive days there was the fear that the world was coming to an end. That fear has persisted and will persist far, far beyond our lifetimes.

This small person is happy today.

This is why !

Mal

Justin
January 21, 2005 - 03:56 pm
Mal; The dust jacket is outstanding. Good reviews will be your first reward. Good Luck. I'm proud of you.

robert b. iadeluca
January 21, 2005 - 06:04 pm
Mal:-That is wonderful! Now we have to wait over two months to find out what it is all about.

Robby

JoanK
January 21, 2005 - 07:11 pm
That's great, Mal!! Seniors rock!!

Fifi le Beau
January 21, 2005 - 08:51 pm
Scrawler, thanks for the advice on the ants.

Mal, congratulations on the publication of your book.

Fifi

Jan Sand
January 21, 2005 - 10:53 pm
One area which has had momentous impact upon religion and which has not been much discussed here is the rise of science and technology. Although there has been much exhibition of scientists who remain religious, the basic viewpoints of the two disciplines are 180 degrees apart. Science's basic reference is individual observation of ongoing events and when these events confront and disagree with previously accepted beliefs it is the previous beliefs which give way. Although religion is not unaware of current social problems, it is the previous rigid concepts which almost always hold sway although there is some accommodation to current attitudes when popular objection becomes great.

But it is technology, especially in these latter years, which has done damage to rigidly held and unjustified concepts. The proliferation of communication techniques to the general populace has revealed operating hypocrisies of authorities both in the religious and governmental fields. The scandals of the sexual perversions within the Catholic church and the frightful conditions of Iraqi prisoners by a government which cries freedom and humane treatment have been exposed by the huge and lightning reaction of the maturing communication network throughout the world. Official religious hierarchies and governments are now vulnerable to open worldwide inspection and although the obvious attempts of the governments in both the west and the east to control this informational flow have been partially successful, informational monopolies are now proving very vulnerable to the uncontrolable information spread.

Sunknow
January 22, 2005 - 12:04 am
Mal - Congratulations on the book. We wait impatiently.

Sun

robert b. iadeluca
January 22, 2005 - 05:50 am
Jan:-We are currently following Durant in his Chapter XI. Not too long from now we will enter Chapter XII (Thought and Art in Eastern Islam) in which he covers Science. I'm sure we will have much to discuss at that time.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
January 22, 2005 - 06:59 am
"Jerusalem was also a holy city to Islam. Already in the eighth century the Arabs predominated in its population.

"The Caliph Abd-al-Malik, envying the splendor with which the Church of the Holy Sepulcher had been restored after its destruction by Khosru Parvez, lavished the revenues of Egypt to surpass that shrine with a group of structures known to the Moslem world as Al-Haram al-Sharif (the venerble sanctuary). At the south end was built (691-4) Al-Masjid al-Agsa -- 'The Farther Mosque' -- so named after a passage in the Koran (xvii,1).

"It was ruined by earthquake in 746, restored in 785, and often modified. But the nave goes back to Abd-al-Malik, and most of the columns to Justinian's basilica in Jerusalem. Muqaddad considered it more beautiful than the Great Mosque at Damascus.

"Somewhere in the sacred enclosure, it was said, Mohammed had met Abraham, Moses, and Jesus, and had prayed with them. Nearby he had seen the rock (reckoned by Israel to be the center of the world) where Abraham had thought to sacrifice Isaac, and Moses had received the Ark of the Covenant, and Solomon and Herod had built their temples. From that rock Mohammed had ascended into heaven. If one but had faith he could see in the rock the footprints of the Prophet.

"In 684, when the rebel Abdallah ibn Zobeir held Mecca and received the revenues of its pilgrims, Abd-al-Malik, anxious to attract some of this sacred revenue, decreed that thereafter this rock should replace the Kaaba as the object of pious pilgrimage.

"Over that historic stone his artisans (691) raised in Syrian-Byzantine style the famous 'Dome of the Rock' which soon ranked as the third of the 'four wonders of the Moslem world' (the others were the mosques of Mecca, Medina, and Damascus).

"It was not a mosque, but a shrine to house the rock. The Crusaders erred twice in calling it the 'Mosque of Omar.' Upon an octagonal building of squared stones, 528 feet in circuit, rises a dome, 112 feet high, mae of wood externally covered with gilded brass. Four elegant portals -- their lintels faced by splended repousse bronze plates -- lead into an interior divided into diminishing octagons by concentric colonnades of polished marbles.

"The magnificent columns were taken from Roman ruins, the capitals were Byzantine. The spandrels of the arches are distinguished by mosaics depicting trees with all the delicacy of a Courber.

"Even finer are the mosaics of the drum below the dome. Running around the cornice of the outer colonnade, in yellow letters on blue tiles, is an inscription in Kufic -- the angular characters favored in Jufa. Saladin had it set up in 1187. It is a lovely example of this unique form of architectural decoration. Within the colonnade is the massive shapeless rock, 200 feet around.

"Wrote Muqaddasi:-'At dawn when the light of the sun first strikes on the cupola, and the drum reflects his rays, then is this edifice a marvelous sight to behold, and such that in all Islam I have never seen the equal. Neither have I heard tell of aught built in pagan times that rivals in grace the Dome of the Rock.'"

Now we are beginning to hear terms regularly appearing in the news of our day -- Dome of the Rock and Church of the Holy Sepulcher. Perhaps we will be better able to understand the Moslem/Jewish/Christian conflict going on in Jerusalem and the Middle East in general.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
January 22, 2005 - 07:09 am
Here are photos of the DOME OF THE ROCK.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
January 22, 2005 - 07:26 am
A photo of the interior of the CHURCH OF THE HOLY SEPULCHER.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
January 22, 2005 - 07:31 am
More pictures of the Holy Sepulcher. Scroll to the bottom of the page to see the nave.

robert b. iadeluca
January 22, 2005 - 07:37 am
And a couple more PHOTOS of the Church of the Holy Sepulcher.

Robby

Persian
January 22, 2005 - 11:52 am
I'm slipping in for a few moments while I take a break from dealing with a malfunctioning furnace - turned off completely to avoid any danger of carbon monoxide seeping into the house - building numerous fires in the fireplaces, and purchasing several electric heaters.

Sorry to be so late in offering comments, but Mal's post #619 caught my attention with the question about the difference in various Arab countries. Indeed they are certainly different: a secular country like Iraq (with a large population of well educated citizens who take great pride in the historial sites in their country, their ancient learning centers and art)is totally different than a harsh, Central Asian country like Afghanistan in which the rigidity of ancient tribal laws does not lend itself to contemporary reform. Saudi Arabia, the most orthodox and thus conservative of the Islamic countries, has a well educated population (and many Saudi businesswomen, educated in the west, who conduct their professional lives away from the public) is not conducive to society's "openness" as it is udnerstood in the west. Iran - NOT an Arab country and following the Sh'ia branch of Islam - offers more opportunity for education of both men and women, and thus more professional avenues to explore. Egypt, known in the Arab world as the most progressive in offering film, theatre, and a staunch devotion to the fine arts, is an economically poor country (even with the vastness of financial support from the American dollar), yet one in which the people have numerous opportunities for higher education. Government corruption runs rampant throughout all of these countries - as well as in the Islamic countries of Asia - yet the individual countries are quite dissimilar from each other.

Mal's question re "how can women live up to their full potential if she is not seen in public" takes me back to my earlier comments about the Saudi women who run their own tremendously successful businesses from home. And also I think of the female university teachers whose women students receive their full attention, guidance and often lifelong friendship. Arab women poets and writers whom I've known personally work from their well furnished modern home offices in comfort and security, away from the unpleasantness of the streets.

Which leads me to a BIG BRAVO for Mal's publication! Well done! All of us who know and appreciate her creative endeavors look forward with pleasure to its publication date.

robert b. iadeluca
January 22, 2005 - 12:14 pm
Thank you, Mahlia! And I hope that the numerous lurkers in this discussion group occasionally pop out just to say "hello" and let us know they are absorbing what is going on here.

Robby

Shasta Sills
January 22, 2005 - 03:51 pm
My congratulations too, Mal! I'm always the last one to come dragging in, but I wish you great success with your book.

Justin
January 22, 2005 - 05:19 pm
Mal your photos of the Church of the Holy Sepulcher were out standing. I don't suppose we can get interior pictures of the Dome of the Rock. I wonder what the stone of Golgotha is all about.

Some of the solution to Brunelleschi's problem can be found here in these domes but he never saw them and did the job in Italy without benefit of Islam.

3kings
January 22, 2005 - 05:24 pm
Thank you MAHLIA. Your comments, in which you pin-point the differences in Islamic countries is very interesting. Please continue to keep us informed.

Congratulations MAL ! Your success gives an answer to your earlier question as to how can Islamic women take part in current affairs, when they are often not seen in public. I think you, yourself, are a shining example just how it can be done. Good on yer, Gal !! I hope your work will become available in NZ. ++ Trevor

robert b. iadeluca
January 22, 2005 - 07:26 pm
This ARTICLE tells of the power of Islam in Bangladesh.

Robby

Fifi le Beau
January 22, 2005 - 09:26 pm
Durant writes on Jerusalem.....

"Somewhere in the sacred enclosure, it was said, Mohammed had met Abraham, Moses, and Jesus, and had prayed with them. Nearby he had seen the rock (reckoned by Israel to be the center of the world) where Abraham had thought to sacrifice Isaac, and Moses had received the Ark of the Covenant, and Solomon and Herod had built their temples. From that rock Mohammed had ascended into heaven. If one but had faith he could see in the rock the footprints of the Prophet.

And if one reads the Koran and hadith one knows that Mohammed was never anywhere near Jerusalem. He supposedly did all this in a dream, and rode to heaven on a donkey with the head of a woman and the tail of a peacock at least according to some muslim writers I have read and in comments in the hadith.

I too have traveled in my dreams, and since I can also fly, I have never needed a donkey.

I am also all too aware that none of it ever actually happened, just wishful thinking much of the time. Since I am also aware most of the time that I am dreaming, I can alter my dreams to my whims. It makes for some great escape schemes.

All of this of course has absolutely no meaning to everyday living, when one must get up, get dressed, and go to work. What Mohammed needed was a job to give him a good dose of reality. I laughed after I wrote that last line, because Durant has told us that Arab men are lazy and live for the most part off the work of slaves and women.

Oh well, history can only be altered in dreams.

Fifi

Malryn (Mal)
January 22, 2005 - 09:40 pm
FIFI, your post made me laugh.

TREVOR, I asked how these women could realize their full potential if they were not allowed to be seen in public. I never could have realized the small amount of my own potential that I've been able to achieve if I'd been as secluded all of my life in the way I am today.


Dome of the Rock, Interior

Diagram of the interior of the Dome

Another interior view of the Dome of the Rock

Looking up at the Dome

Fifi le Beau
January 22, 2005 - 10:25 pm
Mal your 'looking up at the dome' link took me a few seconds to get a perspective. I only saw a shape like a straw hat with holes in the brim lying on a table. I had to force myself to find the real shape of the dome which is the exact opposite of what I saw.

The overhead shot you put up earlier reminded me of a giant blue beetle with a golden head.

Where is Rorschach when you need him?

Fifi

Justin
January 22, 2005 - 11:19 pm
The interior of the Dome of the Rock is very impressive.It is much more so than many churches and many synagogues. The tomb of Galla Placidia in Ravenna is similar in shape but the interior is much less splendid. There is magic in everything one sees in the Rock interior. The floors are carpeted in red. The columns are decorated in alternating colors. Everything here tells the visitor he is in a sacred place. The visitor must stand in the silence and soak up the majestic significance of the rock. Light comes from a triforium in the drum and at the moment of the photos it cast a soft yellow and orange glow in the central area. The resting place of the Rock.

The tribunes supporting the drum and dome must have weakened over time because they are reinforced by obvious steel bars which modernize the image of grandeur. The dome is a double shell. It has been recovered in the 20th century and I suspect that the recovering is heavier than the previous cover which may not have been entirely removed.

Bubble
January 23, 2005 - 03:56 am
Justin those arches in alternating colors... It ewminds me of something special in Spain. Is it the Alhambra?

I never visited those holy buildings. I have not seen much in Jerusalem as most are hard to access.

Éloïse De Pelteau
January 23, 2005 - 06:29 am
ALHAMBRA IN SPAIN

Bubble, about 3 years ago I saw the Alhambra and it was magnificent, but the pictures of the interior of the Dome of the Rock are superior I think. No wonder it is a source of inspiration for millions of Muslims. I can only think how proud the caretakers of this monument must be who can regularly gaze at the splendor of it and how happy are those who can visit it only once in their lifetime. It's fine with me if they think it will give them assurance of a place in heaven, we all need our hopes to help us endure life on earth.

robert b. iadeluca
January 23, 2005 - 06:36 am
Magic can be attributed to any object, including rocks. As a child and as a young adult I had been regularly told about Plymouth Rock. THIS was the place where, in a sense, freedom of religion began. THIS was the place where our hardy ancestors braved the primieval new world to help bring forth our nation. Land of our Pilgrim's pride. My mind did wonders with that rock.

And then I saw it! And I stood and looked at this "itty-bitty" rock -- so much smaller than the one I had envisioned. That was IT? I had already seen rocks more grandiose and more striking than this fraud. I was disappointed but of course as I aged and developed came to realize the difference between imagination and reality and the importance of attaching our lofty goals to something "real."

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
January 23, 2005 - 07:02 am

I had the same reaction to Plymouth Rock when I was a little girl, and remember that I grew up in New England where the history of this country was part of the air we breathed.

You couldn't turn a corner in Massachusetts without running into a remembrance of the Pilgrims and early settlers and people who made this country the democracy it is. The state house in Boston was a marvel to me with its gold dome.

I can't remember a church that impressed me then, except perhaps for the wooden church in Bradford across the bridge from my hometown, whose tall, white steeple glistened against the background of a bright blue sky. Religion was plain in early New England.

The Minutemen, Concord and Lexington, the Old North Church, the graveyard in Boston with its simple stones and graves of early patriots who died for this new country,

Emerson, Thoreau, Margaret Fuller, John Greenleaf Whittier, the abolitionist who was born in my hometown. That was my Rome. Boston was my Mecca, the Athens of the west.

Today my hometown is feeling the effects of a blizzard, which is said to be worse than the one in 1978. I was living alone in Massachusetts in the second floor apartment of an old house during that blizzard and remember the governor coming on television early in the morning to say he'd closed all the roads in the state.

After that storm was over and my car was dug out from a 15 foot drift, I was glad to be alive.

I'm glad to be alive today. It is the thought of life on earth, with every minute savored. that sustains me.

I hope that all of my friends and family in New York, Pennsylvania and New England are safe today.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
January 23, 2005 - 07:11 am
Durant continues:-

"Abd-al-Malik's plan to make this monument replace the Kaaba failed. Had it succeeded, Jeruslem would have been the center of all the three faiths that competed for the soul of medieval man.

"But Jerusalem was not even the capital of the province of Palestine. That honor wwnt to al-Ramlah. Many places that are now poor villages were in Moslem days flourishing towns.

"Wrote Muqaddasi in 985:-'Aqqa (Acra) is a large city, spaciously laid out.'

"Wrote Idrisi in 1154:-'Sidon is a large city, surrounded by gardens and trees.'

"Wrote Yaquibi in 891:-'Tyre is a beautiful place built on a rock jutting out into the Mediterranean.' Wrote Nasir-i-Khosru in 1047:-' Its inns are five or six stories high and great is the quantity of wealth exposed in its clean bazaars.'

"Tripoli, to the north, had 'a fine harbor, capable of holding a thousand ships.'

"Tiberias was famous for its hot springs and its jasmines.

"Of Nazareth the Moslem traveler Yaqui wrote in 1224:-'Here was born the Messiah Isa, the son of Mariam -- peace be upon him! But the people of this place cast dishonor upon her, saying that from all time no virgin has ever borne a child.'

"Baalbek, said Yaqubi, 'is one of the finest towns in Syria.

"Antioch was second only to Damascus among the cities of Syria. The Moslems held it from 635 to 964. The Byzantines then until 1084. The Mohammedan geographers admired its many beautiful Christian churches, its rising terraces of pretty homes, its lush gardens and parks, the running water in every house.

"Tarsus was a major city. Ibn Hawqal (978) reckoned its male adults at 100,000. The Greek Emperor Nicephorus recaptured it in 965, destroyed all the mosques, and burned all the Korans.

"Aleppo was enriched by the uunction there of two caravan routes. The City 'is populous and built of stone' wrote Muqaddasi. 'Shady streets, with rows of shops, lead to each of the gates of the mosque.' In that shrine was a mihrab famous for the beauty of its carved ivory and wood, and a minbar 'most exquisite to behold.' Nearby were five colleges, a hospital, and six Christian churches.

"Homs (the ancient Emesa) 'is one of the largest cities in Syria,' wrote Yaquibi in 891.

"Said Muqaddasi:- 'The women here are beautiful and famous for their fine skin.'"

And how do we look at Palestine and its surrounding area today?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
January 23, 2005 - 10:18 am
Here is an EXAMPLE of America trying to understand other cultures.

Robby

Bubble
January 23, 2005 - 10:41 am
Many of those places still thrive today. Ancient Accra of cours eis all Roman ruins, but the Arab town is bursting with life as are the new immigrants quarters.

Tripoli, Tiberias, Nazareth are all big towns colorful and good sized. Baalbeck is in Syria? I visited that Roman town in Lebanon. I was most impressed by those gigantic ruins, near Palmyra. The air is so fragrant from the cedar trees, the water of its plentiful sources so pure and cool... It was the destination of many tourists buses too and trade flourished.

One has to go there and see it for oneself. The land is still there. If Peace can be attained, all would flourish anew. The potential is there.

Bubble
January 23, 2005 - 10:45 am
Good for the Police Force to have produce those tapes. We all need to be educated on how to understand different cultures. Understanding is the start of communication.

Shasta Sills
January 23, 2005 - 03:24 pm
Yes, that's a step in the right direction.

Justin
January 23, 2005 - 05:31 pm
What happened to the type size? It is now ittty bitty for me. I changed type size in my View icon to largest, butthat was no help. I conclude that senior net central is tinkering again.

Bubble: The Alhambra also sports columns with ringed colors. The same is so for Vezelay in southern France. You may have seen the French Cathedral.

robert b. iadeluca
January 24, 2005 - 12:49 am
"The eastward sweep of the Arab empire favored for its capital a site more central than either Mecca or Jerusalem. The Umayyads wisely chose Damascus -- already heavy with centuries when the Arabs came.

"Five converging streams made its hinterland the 'Garden of the Earth,' fed a hundred public fountains, a hundred public baths, and 120,000 gardens, and flowed out westward into a 'Valley of Violets' twelve miles long and three miles wide.

"Said Idrisi:- 'Damascus is the most delightful of all God's cities.'

"In the heart of the town, amid a population of some 140,000 souls, rose the palace of the caliphs, built by Muawiya I, gaudy with gold and marble, brilliant with mosaics in floors and walls, cool with ever-flowing fountains and cascades. On the north side stood the Great Mosque, one of 572 mosques in the city, and the sole surviving relic of Umayyad Damascus. In Roman days a temple of Jupiter had adorned the site. On its ruins Theodosius I had built (379) the cathedral of St. John the Baptist.

"Walid I, about 705, proposed to the Christians that the cathedral should be remodeled and form part of a new mosque, and promised to give them ground and materials for another cathedral anywhere else in the city. They protested, and warned him that 'it is written in our books that he who destroys this church will choke to death.' But Walid began the destruction with his own hands.

"The whole land tax of the empire, we are told, was devoted for seven years to the construction of the mosque. In addition a large sum was given to the Christians to finance a new cathedral. Artists and artisans were brought in from India, Persia, Constantinople, Egypt, Libya, Tunis, and Alberia. All together 12,000 workmen were employed and the task was completd in eight years.

"Moslem travelers unanimously describe it as the most magnificent structure in Islam. The Abbasid caliphs al-Mahdi and al-Mamun -- no lovers of the Umayyads or Damascus -- ranked it above all other buildings on the earth.

"A great battle-mented wall, with interior colonnades, enclosed a spacious marble-paved court. On the south side of this enclosure rose the mosque, built of squared stones and guarded by three minarets -- one of which is the oldest in Islam. Ground plan and decoration were Byzantine, and were doubtless influenced by St. Sophia.

"The roof and dome -- fifty feet in diameter -- were covered with plates of lead. The interior 429 feet long, was divided into nave and aisles by two tiers of white marble columns, from whose gold-plated Corinthian capitals sprang round on horseshoe arches, the first Moslem examples of this latter form.

"The mosaic floor was covered with carpets. The walls were faced with colored marble mosaics and enameled tiles. Six beautiful grilles of marble divided the interior. In one wall, facing Mecca, was a mihrab lined with gold, silver, and previous stones. Lighting was effected through seventy-four windows of colored glass, and 12,000 lamps.

"Said a traveler:- 'If a man were to sojourn here a hundred years, and pondered each day on what he saw, he would see something new every day.'

"A Greek ambassador, allowed to enter it, confessed to his associates:- 'I had told our Senate that the power of the Arabs would soon pass away. Now seeing here how they have built, I know that of a surety their dominion will endure great length of days.'"

Perhaps those of us here can bit by bit understand the feelings of today's Arab Moslems as they observe the attitude of the Western Civilization toward them.

Robby

Bubble
January 24, 2005 - 03:28 am
This one Justin? I have never been to Vezelay, what a pity.

http://www.best-six.com/balloon/99/france/imgnik/13b.html

This one of the Dome of the rock has nice pictures. It is octogonal like the one in Florence. http://www.greatbuildings.com/buildings/Dome_of_the_Rock.html

Malryn (Mal)
January 24, 2005 - 04:33 am
The Great Ummayad Mosque

Damascus mosque interior. Click NEXT to see more

robert b. iadeluca
January 24, 2005 - 05:27 am
That Damascus mosque is magnificent! Equal to or superior to the beauty of many of the Christian cathedrals.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
January 24, 2005 - 06:04 am
Here is a description of today's Islamic nation of MOROCCO.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
January 24, 2005 - 06:30 am
Pictures: American mosques

Bubble
January 24, 2005 - 08:11 am
I didn't realize they had such modern ones in US! The inside of NY cultural centre with the circle of light is eye catching.

In Geneva they have one built by the best builders from Saudia: workmen and materials came from there.

robert b. iadeluca
January 24, 2005 - 01:38 pm
And some people call the U.S. a Christian nation. We may be a nation which had a strong Judeo-Christian beginnings. We may be a nation in which the majority of people label themselves Christian. But when I see all those beautiful mosques scattered all across the country, I would find it hard to label the U.S. a Christian nation.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
January 24, 2005 - 02:06 pm
"Striking northeast from Damascus across the desert, one came to Raqqa on the Euphrates, royal seat of Harun al-Rashid. Then through Hatra and across the Tigris to Mosul.

"Farther northeast lay Tabriz, whose finest age was still to come. Then, to the east, Tehran (as yet a minor town), Darnghan, and -- east of the Caspian -- Gurgan.

"In the tenth century this was a provincial capital noted for its cultured princes. The greatest of them, Shams al-Maali Qabus, was a poet and scholar who sheltered Avicenna at his court, and left behind him, as his tomb, a gigantic tower 167 feet high, the Gunbad-i-Qabus, the only structure standing of a once populous and prosperous city.

"Along the northern route to the east lay Nishapur, still melodious in Omar Khayyamn's verse. Mashhad, the Mecca of Shia Moslems. Merv, a capital of a once mighty province. And -- usually beyond the reach of the caliph's taxgatherers -- Bokhara and Samarkand.

"Over the mountain ranges to the south lay Ghazni. Poets tell of Mahmud's great palaces there, and of 'tall towers that amazed the moon.' Still stand the 'Triumphal Tower' of Mahmud, and the more ornate tower of Masud II.

"Moving back westward, one could find in the eleventh century a dozen prosperous cities in Iran -- Herat, Shiuraz (with its famous gardens and lovely mosque), Yazd, Ifahan, Kashan, Qasvin, and Kufa. Everywhere the traveler could see shining domes and sparkling minarets, colleges and libraries, palaces and gardens, hospitals and baths, and the dark and narrow alleys of the eternal poor."

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
January 24, 2005 - 02:15 pm
Gunbad-i-Qabas tower

Justin
January 24, 2005 - 03:30 pm
Robby: The text appears in itty bitty characters. Is there some way I can enlarge it?

robert b. iadeluca
January 24, 2005 - 03:32 pm
Mal:-Can you help Justin?

Robby

3kings
January 24, 2005 - 03:54 pm
JUSTIN Try playing with the font buttons at the top right hand corner of the page. I had trouble asd you have when the change over occured about a month ago, and managed to fix it by experimenting ++ Trevor

3kings
January 24, 2005 - 03:59 pm
Abd the buttons at the bottom of the page, too. I remember ++ Trevor

Shasta Sills
January 24, 2005 - 04:32 pm
How is that circle of light constructed in the New York cultural center? Do the lights hang from wires or what?

Justin, I had that problem with my print but I've forgotten what I did to correct it.

Shasta Sills
January 24, 2005 - 04:34 pm
I think what I did was drop down to the very bottom of the screen and select another font size and reset it.

Malryn (Mal)
January 24, 2005 - 05:19 pm

JUSTIN, you will see "Change font" and "Change font size" just below the message blank at the bottom of this page.

The fonts in SeniorNet are measured by PIXELS not POINTS, I find anything under 14 PIXELS to be much too small. For me 14 px is a good size. You may find 18 px to be better.

Choose your font; then choose the pixel size, click SET, and you should be all right.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
January 24, 2005 - 06:11 pm
Where else can you learn about the wonders of computerese and simultaneously become experts on Islam? It's called "one stop shopping."

Robby

Justin
January 24, 2005 - 08:46 pm
Wundebar, I can read the text again. Thanks folks. The gauge was set at 9 pixels. I really had to squint.

Justin
January 24, 2005 - 09:13 pm
In New Jersey a family of Coptics was murdered. Because 9/11 and the earlier attack on the World Trade center was committed by Muslims, neighbors tend to suspect Muslims in the community. (Mahlia can probably tell us whether Muslims and Coptics get along well together in Egypt.) This kind of community response only causes the problem to worsen. The case is a police matter and public opinion should rely on that agency to resolve the issue. We could be seeing white southern hysteria in black issues all over again in Muslim enclaves. It's too bad Muslims are so slow to integrate.

JoanK
January 24, 2005 - 09:30 pm
JUSTIN: "It's too bad Muslims are so slow to integrate". I can't believe you said that. It sounds as if the Coptics asked to be murdered because they were too slow to integrate. I'm sure you didn't mean that.

I don't know how long that family had been there. The pattern for European immigrants has been that it takes three generations. My Italian family is very typical in that respect. My grandparents lived in an Italian neighborhood and spoke little or no English. My father's generation, as was typical, was half and half: some integrated, some didn't. My father left the neighborhood, spoke no Italian, and married a non-Italian. Many of his brothers and sisters stayed in the neighborhood and spoke with heavy Italian accents. The third generation is completely integrated.

As I said, studies have shown this to be typical of the immigrants that came to this country at the beginning of the last century. Now, with TV and more widespread education, the process may be faster, but it still will not be fast, and will vary a lot for individuals, with a great deal of pressure on the second generation.

I have taught ESL to immigrants for several years, and have a tremendous admiration for those who are struggling to make a better life for themselves and their families in a strange country and culture. I have seen courage and determination there that is truly inspiring to me.

Jan Sand
January 24, 2005 - 09:47 pm
Copts are Christians.

Justin
January 24, 2005 - 11:28 pm
JoanK. No, of course , I did not mean that. Coptics are generally from Egypt and Abyssinia. Their Church is an eastern variation of Catholicism much as the Armenian Church, and the Greek Church are variations. They were formed after the meetings at Chalcedon when the nature of Christ was fixed. They disagreed with the outcome of the conference. I think the date was about 450 so they have been around a long time and much before Islam. The question is one of whether they get along back in the "old country".

Many of the Muslims in Jersey City are third generation. They remain in an enclave probably because they keep the culture of Islam and it's easier to live with one's fellows.

Friedman's article today refers to two young French Muslim high school girls of Egyptian and Tunisian parents, who were born and raised in France. They listen exclusively to al Jazeera tv, wear the veil and the burqua, and identify Osama bin Laden as the person they most admire in the world, and that suicide (martyrdom) was justified because there is no greater glory than dying in defense of Islam.

robert b. iadeluca
January 25, 2005 - 04:06 am
Cried the poet Anwari:-

"Blessed be the site of Baghdad, seat of learning and art;
None can point in the world to a city her equal;
Her suburbs vie in beauty with the blue vault of the sky;
Her climate rivals the life-giving breezes of heaven;
Her stones in their brightness rival diamonds and rubies;
The banks of the Tigris with their lovely damsels surpass Kullakh;
The gardens filled with lovely nymphs equal Kashmir;
And thousands of gondolas on the water
Dance and sparkle like sunbeams in the air."

Not to mention the sound of bombs and the smell of rotting bodies.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
January 25, 2005 - 04:47 am
Across Europe, is the anger of Moslems HEATING UP?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
January 25, 2005 - 05:40 am

Here's a link to a British article that goes along with what ROBBY linked from the Times, I think.

Islamophobia Myth

Persian
January 25, 2005 - 08:34 am
IT is certainly true that for some Arab Muslim families in the USA, they prefer to live within communities reflective of their own culturral traditions and religion. However, there are many that choose to "integrate" into American residential communities and enjoy the experience. In this sense, as has already been mentioned, they are no different than earlier generations of immigrants who sought a comfort level within their own kind. The decision where to live and with whom to interact is such a personal one. Individuals with strong educational goals or professional experiecnes may seek to improve themselves by reaching out to and becomign part of a more successful community than they find in their "traditional" one. Here I'm thinking of the Arab Muslims in Detroit and throughout NY and NJ. But it also depends on the backgrounds of the familieas.

And of course Persian Muslims tend to gather in their own communities - laughingly we joke about the millions of Persians in California, who also travel and reside in New York, Paris and throughout the world, constantly on the move to visit friends and family. They are indeed world travelers, like the Persian Jews.

I've always wondered why the American Muslims (of Arab, Persian or other non-American) backgrounds are only featured in the news when something terrible happens. There are so many wonderful teachers, doctors, attorneys, engineers and other professionals in the communities throughout the USA and their work and community efforts are rarely recognized.

.

Bubble
January 25, 2005 - 09:05 am
Mahlia, maybe it shows that they are well integrated? not see as from that ethnic group? Here too we see immigrants need three generations to be totally integrated.

robert b. iadeluca
January 25, 2005 - 11:39 am
"Baghdad was an old Babylonian city, and not far from ancient Babylon. Bricks bearing Nebuchadrezzar's name were found in 1848 under the Tigris there. It throve under the Sasanian kings.

"After the Moslem conquest it became the seat of several Christian monasteries, mostly Nestorian. From these monks, we are told, the Caliph al-Mansur learned that the site was cool in summer and free from the mosquitoes that harassed Kufa and Basra. Perhaps the Caliph thought it advisable to put some distance between himself and those unruly cities, already swelling with a revolutionary proletariat.

"Doubtless he saw strategic advantage in a site safely inland, yet in touch by water, through the Tigris and the major canals, with all the cities on the two rivers, and then through the gulf with all the ports of the world.

"So in 762 he transferred his residence from Hashimiya, and the governmental offices from Kufa, to Baghdad, surrounded the site with a threefold circular wall and a moat, changed its official name from Baghdad ('Gift of God') to Medinat-al-Salam ('City of Peace'), and employed 100,000 workmen to build in four years great brick palaces for himself, his relatives, and the bureaus of the government.

"At the center of this 'Round City of al-Mansur' rose the caliphal palace, called the 'Golden Gate' from its gilded entrance, or the 'Green Dome' from its gleaming cupola. Outside the walls, and directly on the west bank of the Tigris, al-Mansur built a summer residence, the 'Palace of Eternity.' Here, for most of his years, Harun al-Rashid made his home.

"From the windows of these palaces one might see a hundred vessels unloading on the docks the wares of half the earth."

As we follow the news, can we imagine the Baghdad of centuries ago?

Robby

Fifi le Beau
January 25, 2005 - 10:24 pm
Durant writes.....

Theodosius I had built (379) the cathedral of St. John the Baptist.

"Walid I, about 705, proposed to the Christians that the cathedral should be remodeled and form part of a new mosque, and promised to give them ground and materials for another cathedral anywhere else in the city. They protested, and warned him that 'it is written in our books that he who destroys this church will choke to death.' But Walid began the destruction with his own hands.


In looking at Mal's link "The Great Ummayad Mosque" I began to read what the "Muslim Heritage" site said about it. They began by saying the Christians worshiped in an 'old derelict temple' that was transformed into St. John the Baptist. They say Walid bought the derelict site and construction began.

We had only recently read where the muslims had taken the site holy of the Jews where their temple had stood and built their mosque on that site, called the Dome of the Rock.

We have already read about the muslims taking St. Sophia and turning it into a mosque. This seems to form a pattern of wanting what others have.

That of itself means little to me, but it shows a pattern that I have seen through all the web sites that have been listed here, and that is their desire to lay claim not only to churches but to everything that is not nailed down and some that are. The claims they make that are so outrageous such as discovering America, and that the American Indians were muslims when America was discovered, and the list is endless of outright falsehoods I have read on their web sites and publications.

This is a criticism of muslim leaders and educated muslims, and it matters not whether they are Arabs, Englishmen, American, Russian, Chinese, or Martians. Their propensity to lay claim to things they have not done, is an irritant and if it were John Jones I would feel the same. The fact that they are blatant in your face about their false claims which are too numerous to list, has given me the impression that they cannot be trusted to tell the truth about anything.

The Saudis have built their Wahabbi schools all over the world, and if this is what they are teaching they should be shut down for spreading ignorance to the poor and wretched in the world.

I read an article a while ago on the muslims of Indonesia who were described as practicing a form of Islam that was a mixture of Buddhism, Hindu, and other local gods into their form of Islam. The Saudis are spending millions to put 'Wahabbi' extremist religious schools in Indonesia to indoctrinate them into fanatism without telling the truth or giving them the whole story. They are doing the same in Africa, and their schools don't educate the populace, they indoctrinate with 7th century religious fanaticism.

Islam is a threat to every country they inhabit where they are allowed to teach ignorance without learning. The majority of their followers are poor and uneducated when you consider Indonesia and others in the area make up the majority of Islam. The Saudis want to keep the followers ignorant, it is a necessity in the religious business.

I will criticize the leaders, mullahs, ayatollahs, and any others who spread lies and ignorance to the poor and unlearned.

Fifi

Justin
January 26, 2005 - 12:21 am
Lying and half truths seem to be a characteristic of some regimes, even in modern times.

3kings
January 26, 2005 - 01:23 am
And Justin, here in the "civilized" West, the same ridiculous attitudes often prevail.. ++ Trevor

kidsal
January 26, 2005 - 03:35 am
When you travel through Spain you find many mosques that have been changed to accomodate the Catholic faith.

robert b. iadeluca
January 26, 2005 - 04:04 am
Kidsal:-Have you been to Spain? If so, tell us about it.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
January 26, 2005 - 04:17 am
Here is a POWERFUL ARTICLE about the fundamentalists of both the Christian and Islamic faiths written by Andrew Sullivan of the New York Times less than one month after 9/11. I urge everyone here to read it in detail.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
January 26, 2005 - 04:52 am
People are people whatever the prevailing religion. This current SCANDAL in Islamic Egypt may (or may not) change religious practices.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
January 26, 2005 - 06:27 am

Yes, and Andrew Sullivan says there should be a separation between Church and State, something Fundamentalists of whatever religion do not believe in. He says that America was founded in part on ideas expounded by John Locke.
"Following Locke, the founders established as a central element of the new American order a stark separation of church and state, ensuring that no single religion could use political means to enforce its own orthodoxies."


"The critical link between Western and Middle Eastern fundamentalism is surely the pace of social change. If you take your beliefs from books written more than a thousand years ago, and you believe in these texts literally, then the appearance of the modern world must truly terrify. If you believe that women should be consigned to polygamous, concealed servitude, then Manhattan must appear like Gomorrah. If you believe that homosexuality is a crime punishable by death, as both fundamentalist Islam and the Bible dictate, then a world of same-sex marriage is surely Sodom. It is not a big step to argue that such centers of evil should be destroyed or undermined, as bin Laden does, or to believe that their destruction is somehow a consequence of their sin, as Jerry Falwell argued."

"In a world of absolute truth, in matters graver than life and death, there is no room for dissent and no room for theological doubt."
Mal

Malryn (Mal)
January 26, 2005 - 06:30 am

"Government has no other end, but the preservation of property."

"The care of souls cannot belong to the civil magistrate."

~ John Locke

Malryn (Mal)
January 26, 2005 - 06:33 am

"The United States government must not undertake to run the Churches. When an individual, in the Church or out of it, becomes dangerous to the public interest he must be checked."

~ Abraham Lincoln


Malryn (Mal)
January 26, 2005 - 08:38 am

To the question asked in the year 2000 political campaign:"Who is your favorite political philosopher?" one candidate said, "Christ, because he changed my life." That person is now a prominent figure in the government of the United States.

Mal

Justin
January 26, 2005 - 04:23 pm
Sullivan says much that I agree with. His premise that the antagonists are religious fundementalists who fear the advances of secularism and those who wish to ensure a separation of church and state. These forces are drawn toward war and the opening salvos have already been fired. The contestants are not state versus state nor are they bound by geography or political alliances. It is the secularist versus the religious fundementalist that I fear will cause srife. That split in the US is already evident and could easily widen. The next US election will test the strength of the US constitution in defending religion by protecting seculaism.

robert b. iadeluca
January 26, 2005 - 04:27 pm
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

First Amendment to Constitution of the United States of America

robert b. iadeluca
January 26, 2005 - 04:53 pm
"While the poor solaced life with heaven, the rich sought heaven on earth. In or near Baghdad they raised a thousand splendid mansions, villas, palaces -- simple without, but 'within, nothing but azure and gold.'

"We may imagine this domestic splendor from an incredible passage in Abulfeda, which assures us that the royal palace at Baghdad had on its floors 22,000 carpets, and on its walls 38,000 tapestries, 12,500 of silk.

"The residences of the caliph and his family, the vizier, and the governmental heads occupied a square mile of the eastern city. Jafar the Barmakid inqugurated an aristocratic migration by building in southeastern Baghdad a mansion whose splendor contributed to his death.

"He tried to evade Harun's jealousy by presenting the palace to Mamun. Harun accepted it for his son, but Jafar cntinued to live and frolic in the 'Qasr Jafari' untl his fall.

"When the palaces of al-Mansur and Harun began to crumble, new palaces replaced them. Al-Mutadid spent 400,000 dinars ($1,900,000) on his 'Palace of the Pleiades' (892). We may judge its extent from the 9000 horses, camels, and mules that were housed in its stables.

"Al-Muqtafi built next to this his 'Palace of the Crown' (902), which, with its gardens, covered nine square miles. Al-Muqtadir raised in his turn the 'Hall of the Tree,' so named becaue in its garden pond stood a tree of silver and gold. On the silver leaves and twigs perched silver birds, whose beaks piped mechanical lays. The Buwayhid sultans outspent them all by lavishing 13,000,000 dirhems upon the Muizziyah Palace.

"When Greek ambassadors were received by al-Muqtadir in 917, they were impressed by the twenty-three palaces of the Caliph and his government, the porticoes of marble columns the number, size, and beauty of the rugs and tapestries that almost covered floors and walls, the thousand grooms in shining uniforms, the gold and silver saddles and brocaded saddlecloths of the emperor's horses, the variety of tame or wild animals in the spacious parks, and the royal barges, themselves palaces, that rode on the Tigris, waiting the Caliph's whim."

All this emanating over a period of time from nomads living simply in tents. Then came glory. Then came "shock and awe", car bombers, and hummers.

And this, too, shall pass away.

Robby

Justin
January 26, 2005 - 06:30 pm
Robby; You are an optimist. I fear resistance will persist in this area of the world. These people fear impingement of the modern world on their way of life.

Fifi le Beau
January 26, 2005 - 06:44 pm
Robby your statement......

All this emanating over a period of time from nomads living simply in tents. Then came glory.

Before glory, came war. After war came the looting of the country's treasury along with their builders, weavers, artisans, and craftsmen. Then came glory.

After the death of King Abdul Aziz ibn Saud in Saudi Arabia in the mid 1950's, his son Saud was named king. He had one of the largest marble palaces in the city. He bulldozed it down and built one bigger and more ornate than the first. George Crile was a guest in the early 1990's at one of the Kings palaces and he said his bedroom was the size of a football field. His main concern was finding the bathroom.

Fifi

robert b. iadeluca
January 27, 2005 - 05:10 am
"Amid these splendors the upper classes lived a life of luxury, sport, worry, and intrigue.

"They went to the Maydan or plaza to watch horse races or polo games, drank precious forbidden wine, and ate foods brought from the greatest possible distances at the greatest possible price -- robed themselves and their ladies in gorgeous and colorful raiment of silk and gold brocade -- perfumed their clothing, hair, and beards -- breathed the aroma of burning ambergris or frankincense -- and wore jewelry on their heads, ears, necks, wrists, and feminine ankles.

"Sang a poet to a lass:- 'The clinking of thine anklets has berefit me of reason.' Usually women were excluded from the social gatherings of the men. Poets, musicians, and wits took their place, and doubtless sang or spoke of love. Willowy slave girls danced until the men were their slaves.

"Politer groups listened to poetic readings, or recitations of the Koran. Some formed philosophical clubs like the Brethren of Purity. About 790 we hear of a club of ten membes -- an orthodox Sunni, a Shi'ite, a Kharijite, a Manichean, an erotic poet, a materialist, a Christian, a Jew, a Sabaean, and a Zoroastrian. Their meetings, we are told, were marked by mutual tolerance, good humor, and courteous argument.

"In general Moslem society was one of excellent manners. From Cyrus to Li Hung Chang the East has surpassed the West in courtesy. It was an ennobling aspect of this Baghdad life that all the permitted arts and sciences found there a discriminating patronage, that schools and colleges were numerous, and the air resounded with poetry.

"Of the life of the common people we are told little. We may only assume that they helped to uphold this edifice of grandeur with their services and their toil. While the rich played with literature and art, science and philosophy, the simpler folk lisened to street singers, or strummed their own lutes and sang their own songs.

"Now and then a wedding procession redeemed the din and odor of the streets. On festive holydays people visited one another, exchanged presents with careful calculation, and ate with keener relish than those who feasted from plates of gold.

"Even the poor man gloried in the majesty of the caliph and the splendor of the mosque. He shared some dirhems of the dinars that were taxed into Baghdad. He carried himself with the pride and dignity of a capital. In his secret heart he numbered himself among the rulers of the world."

"The East has surpassed the West in courtesy." Comments?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
January 27, 2005 - 08:54 am

Mohammed or not, this sounds to me like most of the other civilizations we've read about and discussed here. The rich enjoyed what they had to the hilt, and the poor got the crumbs that were left over.

Mal

Bubble
January 27, 2005 - 09:03 am
But they did it with more panache? It is more colorful when done in the East. The language has more frills too.

Shasta Sills
January 27, 2005 - 10:21 am
"Of the life of the common people we are told little." It seems to me this is one of the real flaws in recorded history. History just skims the peaks of human experience and ignores the vast areas of activities that are ordinary. We hear all these details about the rich and exceptional people, but the great majority of the human race is very ordinary, and who tells their tale? It's as if the majority didn't even exist.

Malryn (Mal)
January 27, 2005 - 11:15 am

Thousands and thousands of novelists tell the tale of ordinary people, SHASTA.

Mal

Fifi le Beau
January 27, 2005 - 12:20 pm
Robby's statement, "The east has surpassed the west in courtesy."

The question is what lies underneath that facade.

Courtesy should come easy to people whose only job is breathing. They did not work, and their only objective seemed to be continual and perpetual entertainment. Those who were included in the circle of the Caliphs gained the opportunity for great wealth and great leisure to pursue their poetry, with a written record glorifying the Caliph and his cohorts of course.

On the outside of this circle lived the majority. They were the ones who did all the work, and did it with great courtesy or faced their death. Did they always feel like smiling and bowing and hopping to, I'm sure they didn't, but their instinct for survival kept their 'head' about them. When the poets wrote about the courtesy at the Caliph's court, they were writing about themselves, not the millions who slaved for their leisure.

Even if your only job is breathing, underneath the facade of courtesy and politeness lies in many a sexual cruelty that is unsurpassed in the world, much less the west. I have recently finished two books by men who have lived or traveled extensively in the East. Their books were written on other subjects but in a couple of sentences just in passing, they have said about the East that it has the most vicious and evil pornography of any place on earth.

If this had been the first time I had read this, I would have made a mental note and closed the book. I read mostly non fiction and have read no books on pornography, but have read comments by others about this 'trait' which is never discussed in detail and always written by men.

One man who has traveled the world and wrote about his business venture said this in passing. He had a long and tiring flight and when he settled in his hotel room in one of the finest hotels in the city, he undressed and lay down on the bed to relax. He put the television on, and there was a pornographic movie playing. He said, "I am no prude, but I had to cut it off because it was the most vicious thing I have ever seen, in this part of the world underneath the politeness lies a deranged view of sex that is unsettling."

I cannot meet an Asian man without this sentence playing in my mental DVD. This is a recent phenomenon for me, and after I read those few sentences all the other instances of passing remarks came to mind. While I am sure all Asian men don't act as the pornographic movie depicted (whatever that was), the unsettling part is that they watch them with an apparent nonchalance as though it was normal. Another author said many of these films involve torture and children. They play them in theaters and all hotels that cater to tourists and business travelers.

This past picture comes to mind. The television news had a report on the capture of a serial killer and they were interviewing his older female neighbor. She said, "He was such a nice young man. Very courteous, he always held the door for me."

Fifi

Bubble
January 27, 2005 - 12:37 pm
Fifi, I am not trying to look for excuses.But please take into account that what is rude in one culture may be accepted or normal in another. What would you think of me if I was burping loudly at your dinner table?

Scrawler
January 27, 2005 - 12:59 pm
What is the old saying: Money is the root of all evil! From what I can see this society was no different than the many that we have already discussed. "The Rich get richer and the Poor get poorer!"

Is our society any different?

Fifi le Beau
January 27, 2005 - 01:57 pm
In reading the news this morning, I came across this article about Aga Khan 1V who is head of the Ismaili sect of Islam.

He was receiving the Vincent Scully award in Washington, but the article gives some information on the beginning of the Ismaili sect, and has some information about Islamic architecture. He has a program at Harvard and MIT to fund the education of Islamic architects, planners, teachers, and researchers.

The Aga Khan award for architecture is given every three years for what he says is the rebirth in Islamic architecture. Last years recipient was Argentinan Cesar Pelli who built the Petronas Towers in Kuala Lumpur. Aren't those the tallest buildings in the world right now, and how this Argentinian builder and a skyscraper relates to Islam, I don't know, unless they count it because it was built in Kuala Lumpur.

This article left so many unanswered questions that now I have to read the book "Throne of Gold" by Anne Edwards. Even that will not answer all, but maybe if he doesn't cough up 500 million pounds, his estranged wife who is suing for divorce and has told him if she doesn't get the money, she will ask the taxman to probe his financial dealings. Better look for that horse that disappeared too, with all that insurance.

Grandpa stole from the poor, Papa stole from the poor, so why should he give up the family business.

The great con game

Fifi

Fifi le Beau
January 27, 2005 - 02:14 pm
Here is a definition of the Ismaili sect from the encyclopedia, and it has more divisions than Chinese arithmetic. Scan down until you come to "Ismaili" definition.

Ismaili Sect

Fifi

Fifi le Beau
January 27, 2005 - 02:34 pm
Evidently the Aga Kahn wrote a constitution for his sect. Here comes the opposition, but they do give parts of it, if for no other reason than to refute it, so you get an idea of what it says. This is an opposing Islamic view.

Ismaili Constitution

Fifi

Fifi le Beau
January 27, 2005 - 02:52 pm
Here is a link to the Petronas Towers which have a view from above and ground level, and if you click on the architect Cesar Pelli at the top you will get a list of his work and a short bio.

Petronas Towers

Fifi

Justin
January 27, 2005 - 08:03 pm
We (westerners) seem to be the only society that thinks children should not know about sexual things. They must learn this fundemental function from their peers and from experimentation rather than from adults. It's wrong, for some reason, for adults to pass on their know-how to children. Then when girls become pregnant at puberty we are shocked. Why does that happen? What did we do wrong? What's the answer?

Take away the mystery.Take sex out of the closet and make it available to children at an early age. Stop inventing silly stories about where babies come from.Let children see deliveries. Remove the guilt associated with masturbation. Teach the mechanics of sex early. When sex is not a big mystery children will engage with knowledge and precaution. They will pull away from violent sexual pornography for the same reasons adults pull away. Children see movies depicting torture and killing everyday. Why not let them see films depicting something useful. Something they can learn from adults that will help them to better understand the world they must live in. Male children particularly, must learn that abuse of women in sex is not desirable. It is behavior as reprehensible as betraying friends.

Jan Sand
January 27, 2005 - 09:07 pm
There are many attitudes enforced by law in current American culture which are not rational. Several of them, such as prejudice against people of color and women have an economic re-enforcement but the prejudice against open sexual knowledge seems to originate out of religion which considers the necessities of reproduction as essentially evil although it is obviously necessary for the continuance of the species. It is a strange misfortune of the basic drive of living things is that sexual activity is extremely enjoyable and one of the perverse attitudes embedded in some of the main current religions that anything that is enjoyable is an insult to supreme beings which require the guilt of adherents to maintain their supremacy. I doubt that an appeal to rationality can effect any change in this matter.

Malryn (Mal)
January 27, 2005 - 09:16 pm


Thought and Art in Eastern Islam
632-1058

Malryn (Mal)
January 27, 2005 - 09:20 pm

Scholarship

If we may believe the traditions, Mohammed, unlike most religious reformers, admiired and urged the pursuit of knowledge. "He who leaves his home in search of knowledge walks in the path of God . . . and the ink of the scholar is holier than the blood of the martyr"; but these traditions have the ring of pedgaogic narcissism. In any case the contact of the Arabs with Greek culture in Syria awoke in them an eager emulation; and soon the scholar as well as the poet was honored in Islam.

Education began as soon as the child could speak; it was at once taught to say, "I testify that there is no God but Allah, and I testify that Mohammed is his prophet." At the age of six some slave children, some girls, and nearly all boys except the rich ( who had private tutors ) entered an elementary school, usually in a mosque, sometimes near a public founntain in the open air. Tuition was normally free, or so low as to be within general reach; the remaining cost was borne by philanthropists.

The curriculum was simple: the necessary prayers of Moslem worship, enough reading to decipher the Koran, and, for the rest, the Koran itself as theology, history, ethics, and law. Writing and arithmetic were left to higher education, perhaps because writing, in the Orient, was an art that required specific training; besides, said the Moselem, scribes would be available for those who insisted on writing.

Each day a part of the Koran was memorized and recited aloud; the goal set before every pupil was to learn the entire book by heart. He who succeeded was called hafiz, "holder", and was publicly celebrated. He who also learned writing, archery, and swimming was called al-kamil, "the perfect one."

The method was memory, the discipline was the rod, the usual punishment was a beating with a palm stick on the soles of the feet. Said Harun to the tutor of his son Amin: "Be not strict to the extent of stifling his faculties, nor lenient to the point of . . . accustoming him to idleness. Straighten him as much as thou canst through kindness and gentleness, but fail not to resort to force and severity should he not respond.


Spare the rod and spoil the child?
What do you think of this method for teaching children, as compared to the education you had as a child a few decades ago?

Fifi le Beau
January 27, 2005 - 10:27 pm
Justin, I certainly agree with teaching children about sex early and with no guilt attached. I not only talked to my children, but bought them books to read that explained the body in detail when they were in grade school.

I was also taught this way, and have never had any guilt or hang-ups about sex, and religion never entered into any discussion on the subject by my parents or myself.

I think most women equate sex with love and trust. I wouldn't want to have sex with someone I didn't love or trust, because women carry a responsibility for pregnancy which affects how they view casual sex.

I know that now with birth control available that it is possible to eliminate that worry and believe me, I made that information available to my children and grandchildren. I don't consider sex outside marriage to be wrong if it is between consenting couples who care for each other straight or gay.

I grew up in a different era and being a woman colors my view. I can see how it would be different from most men, but I agree with openness and truth telling as regards anything to do with sex.

I think it was Erica Jung who wrote that when she watched pornography for the first minute she wanted to %$#@ forever, but after five minutes of watching it she never wanted to %$#@ again.

Fifi

Malryn (Mal)
January 27, 2005 - 10:36 pm
"There are about 12,000 madrasas in Pakistan, with more than 1.5 million students enrolled. Most of the students are too poor to afford a modern education. So boys between 8 and 15 years old attend these schools where they spend several hours a day memorizing the verses of the Koran. Older students undergo a difficult eight-year course that interprets the holy book. Jamia Naimia in Lahore is one of those madrasas. Subjects like math, English and general sciences are not taught here. But the school has a computer science department that teaches Windows applications, Web design and Basic."

Pakistan: Madrasas schools slowly warm to computers

Malryn (Mal)
January 27, 2005 - 10:38 pm

Saudis to build 4500 Madrasas in South Asia

Malryn (Mal)
January 27, 2005 - 10:41 pm

History of Madrasas --- the Ottoman Empire

Malryn (Mal)
January 27, 2005 - 10:54 pm

ROBBY will be away until Tuesday evening. I'll be posting from Durant's The Age of Faith until then. The topic is "Thought and Art in Eastern Islam." Page 235 in the book.

Mal

Justin
January 28, 2005 - 12:15 am
Thanks for taking the helm, Mal. This art thing sounds interesting.

Bubble
January 28, 2005 - 02:36 am
A parallel: 'Midrasha' in Hebrew is a shool for Torah learning. One way to honor the passing away of a loved one is funding an evening midrasha for adults to come and learn after work.

Israeli religious schools are on a par with Pakistan: computers sciences have been introduced of late, but not free use of the internet!

Malryn (Mal)
January 28, 2005 - 06:00 am

BUBBLE, do the public schools in Israel emphasize religion the way the Madrasas do?

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
January 28, 2005 - 06:16 am

Elementary education aimed to form character, secondary education to transmit knowledge. Squatting against a mosque pillar or wall, scholars offered instruction in Koranic interpretation, Hadith, theology and law. At an unknown date many of these informal secondary schools were brought under governmental regulation and subsidy as madrasas or colleges.

To the basic theological curriculum they added grammar, philology, rhetoric, literature, logic, mathematics and astronomy. Grammar was emphasized, for Arabic was considered the most nearly perfect of all languages, and its correct use was the chief mark of a gentleman. Tuition in these colleges was free, and in some cases government or philanthropy paid both the salaries of the professors and the expenses of the students.

The teacher counted for more than the text, except in the case of the Koran; boys studied men rather more than the text, and students would travel from one end of hte Moslem world to another to meet the mind of a famous teacher.

Every scholar who desired a high standing at home had to hear the master scholars of Mecca, Baghdad, Damascus and Cairo. This international of letters was made easier by the fact that throughout Islam --- through whatever diversity of peoples ---- the language of learning and literature was Arabic; Latin had no wider realm.

When a visitor entered a Moslem city he took it for granted that he oculd hear a scholarly lecture at the principal mosque at almost any hour of the day. In many cases the wandering scholar received not only free instruction at the madrasa, but, for a time, free lodging and food.

No degrees were given; what the student sought was a certificate of approval from the individual teacher. The final accolade was the acquirement of adab --- the manners and tastes, the verbal wit and grace, the lightly carried knowledge, of a gentleman.



"Elementary education aimed to form character, secondary education to transmit knowledge."

What happens to young minds that are taught theology and behavioral codes exclusively, and not including such disciplines as writing and arithmetic?

Isn't constant repetition and memorization called "rote learning"? Is that a satisfactory method?

What kinds of adults come out of such an educational system?


Bubble
January 28, 2005 - 07:27 am
The Midrasha centers do emphasize and teach only that. The regular public schools have a more balanced curriculum.

Rote learning is not all that bad. Isn't that the way we learned arithmetics, how to multiply? We don't need calculating machines like our kids do, because it is well imbedded in our memory. But we also learned to think and not depend only on what was learned by rote.

Malryn (Mal)
January 28, 2005 - 11:02 am
I think rote learning of the multiplication table is fine, but when words and sentences are learned by rote, they are parroted without any attempt to understand what they mean.

As a child I heard and said, "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States and the Republican for sandwich it stands." It took me quite a while to figure out what a Republican for sandwich was.

Mal

Jan Sand
January 28, 2005 - 11:26 am
Your mistake is known as a mondegreen. Another one from that pledge is "one nation invisible" The most famous is "gladly the cross eyed bear" Feeding "mondegreen" to Google will produce others.

Scrawler
January 28, 2005 - 01:06 pm
When my son started asking me about sex I showed him the film of his birth that his father took. After we had watched it, I asked him if he had any questions. All he said was: "That's gross, mom!" But I think he understood the results of what happens when you have sex between a man and a woman.

Justin
January 28, 2005 - 02:15 pm
That's great, Scrawler. I didn't get to see a delivery until my grandaughter delivered. Had I seen that as a young man I would have had a better understanding of what I was doing when looking at young women with hungry eyes.

Malryn (Mal)
January 28, 2005 - 03:02 pm
When the Moslems captured Samarkand ( 712 ) they learned from the Chinese the technique of beating flax and other fibrous plants into a pulp, and drying the pulp in thin sheets. Introduced to the Near East as a substitute for parchment and leather at a time when papyrus was not yet forgotten, the product received the name papyros ---- paper. The first paper-manufacturing plant in Islam was opened in Baghdad in 794 by al-Fadl, son of Harun's vizier. The craft was brought by the Arabs to Sicily and Spain, and thence passed into Italy and France. We find paper in use in China as early as A.D. 105, in Mecca in 707, in Egypt in 800, in Spain in 950, in Constantinople in 1100, in Sicily in 1102, in Italy in 1254, in German in 1228, in England in 1309.

The invention faciitated the making of books wherever it went. Yaqubi tells us that in his time ( 891 ) Baghdad had over a hundred booksellers. Their shops were also centers of copying, calligraphy, and literary gatherings. Many students made a living by copying manuscripts and selling the copies to book dealers. In the tenth century we hear of autograph hunters, and of book collectors who paid great sums for rare manuscripts.

Authors received nothing from the sale of their books; they depended on some less speculative mode of subsistence, or uon the patronage of princes or rich men. Literature was written, and art was designed, in Islam, to meet the taste of an aristocracy of money or of blood.



In 891 there were over a hundred booksellers in Baghdad.

Comments, anyone?

JoanK
January 28, 2005 - 05:04 pm
As I look around my house stuffed to the rafters with books, it amazes me to think of the labor that went into producing one book in those days, and the hunger for knowledge that led people to go through that labor.

My daughter grows papyrus in her yard in California. This led me to try to find out how paper was made from papyrus. Apparently, the stems were used: they were peeled: a batch laid down in one direction, and another batch crosswise on top. It was then pressed down. Apparently, the sap from the plant stuck it together, no glue or sizing was needed.

3kings
January 28, 2005 - 08:14 pm
I am confused again. So what's new ?

First I read the curriculum was in Arabic schools was elementary, and that Mathematics and Science were not taught, then in Durant I read :-

To the basic theological curriculum they added grammar, philology, rhetoric, literature, logic, mathematics and astronomy. Grammar was emphasized, for Arabic was considered the most nearly perfect of all languages, and its correct use was the chief mark of a gentleman.

Both analysis can not be correct. It was my understanding that the Middle Eastern peoples took Greek and Indian mathematics and expanded them before transmitting them to ignorant Europe via the Moors. ++ Trevor

Malryn (Mal)
January 28, 2005 - 08:44 pm

Those were taught in secondary schools, TREVOR, the eqivalent of colleges.

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
January 28, 2005 - 09:22 pm

"And Allah brought you forth
from the wombs of your mothers
knowing nothing,
and He gave you hearing,
seeing and intelligence,
so that you may render thanks
( to Allah )"

~ al Quran 16:78

kidsal
January 29, 2005 - 02:28 am
Remember seeing a TV clip about Baghdad at the beginning of the war. The mentioned that there were many book stalls and the people were noted for buying many books/magazines.

Malryn (Mal)
January 29, 2005 - 04:13 am

Pictures of Iraq, circa 1925. Click thumbnail, then click picture that comes up to see larger picture.

Bubble
January 29, 2005 - 05:26 am
Great pictures. Nothing about poverty there...

Malryn (Mal)
January 29, 2005 - 07:06 am
Snow, sleet and freezing rain are predicted for my part of North Carolina this afternoon, tonight and into tomorrow. If I disappear, it's because the power went off. My daughter has been making the rounds to see if we have enough batteries and candles, and kerosene has been bought for the emergency stove, so I'll have some heat in this apartment. There's a big fireplace in the main house where my daughter lives.

Cold rain is being predicted for the part of South Carolina coast where ROBBY is at the Books at the Beach get-together, though there'll be freezing rain inland. Let's hope they don't end up cooking at the fireplace and reading by candlelight!

There's plenty to discuss here, and a little more follows, should nature do what it loves to do to us Tarheels in winter.

Mal

Bubble
January 29, 2005 - 07:12 am
Brrrrrrrrr...

Malryn (Mal)
January 29, 2005 - 07:21 am
Most mosques had libraries, and some cities had public libraries of considerable content and generous acessibiity. About 950 Mosul had a library, established by private philanthropy, where students were supplied with paper as well as books. Ten large catalogues were required to list the volumes in the public library at Rayy, Basra's library gave stipends to scholars speaking in it.

The geographer Yaqut spent three years in the libraries of Merva and Khwarizm, gathering data for his geographical dictionary. When Baghdad was destroyed by the Mongols it had thirty-six public libraries. Private libraries were numberless, it was a fashion among the rich to have an ample collection of books. A physician refused the invitation of the sultan of Bokhara to come and live at his court, on the ground that he would need 400 camels to transport his library.

Al-Waqidi, dying, left 600 boxes of books, each box so heavy that two men were needed to carry it, "princes like Sahib ibn Abbas in the tenth century might own as many books as could be found in all the libraries of Europe combined."

Nowhere else in those eighth, ninth, tenth, and eleventh centuries of our era was there so great a passion for books, unless it was in the China of Ming Huang. Islam reached then the summit of its cultural life. In a thousand mosques from Cordova to Samarkand scholars were as numerous as pillars, and made the cloisters tremble with their eloquence; the roads of the realm were disturbed by innumerable geographers, historians, and theologians seeking knowledge and wisdome; the courts of a hundred princes resounded with poetry and philosophical debate; and no man dared be a millionaire without supporting literature or art.

The old cultures of the conquered were were easily absorbed by the quick-witted Arabs; and the conquerors showed such tolerance that of the poets, scientists, and philosophers who now made Arabic the most learned and literary tongue in the world only a small minority were of Arab blood.

Malryn (Mal)
January 29, 2005 - 07:31 am
"YAQUT, or YAKUT (Yaqut ibn 'Abdallah ur-Rumi) (1179-1229), Arab geographer and biographer, was born in Greece of Greek parentage, but in his boyhood became the slave of a merchant of Hamah (Hamath), who trained him for commercial travelling and sent him two or three times to Kish in the Persian Gulf (on his journeys, cf. F. Wiistenfeld, 'Jacut's Reisen ' in the Zeitschr. d. deutsch. morg. Gesellschaft, vol. xviii. pp. 397-493). In 1194 he quarrelled with his master and had to support himself by copying; he took advantage of the opportunity of studying under the grammarian al-'Ukbari. After five years he returned to his old master and again travelled for him to Kish, but on his return found his master dead, and set up for himself as a bookseller and began to write. During the next ten years he travelled in Persia, Syria, Egypt and visited Merv, Balkh, Mosul and Aleppo. About 1222 he settled in Mosul and worked on his geography, the first draft of which was ready in 1224. After a journey to Alexandria in 1227 he went to Aleppo, where he died in 1229. In his large geography, the Mujam ul-Buldan (ed. F. Wiistenfeld, 6 vols., Leipzig, 1866-73), the places mentioned in the literature or the stories of the Arabs are given in alphabetical order, with the correct vocalization of the names, an indication whether they are Arabic or foreign and their locality. Their history is often sketched with a special account of their conquest by the Moslems and the name of the governor at the time is recorded. Attention is also given to the monuments they contain and the celebrities who were bcrn in them or had lived there. In this way a quantity of old literature, both prose and poetry, is preserved by Yaqut.

"The parts of this work relating to Persia have been extracted and translated by Barbier de Meynard under the title Dictionnaire geographique, historique et litteraire^ de la Perse (Paris, 1871). Some account of its sources is given in F. J. Heer's Die historischen und geographischen Quellen in Jacut's geographischem Wiirterbuch (Strassburg, 1898), and the material relating to the Crusades is treated by H. Derenbourg, ' Les Croisades d'apres le dictionnaire geographique de Jacout' in the volume of the Centenaire de I'ecole des langues orientates vivantes, 7192. A digest of the whole work was made by Ibn 'Abdulhaqq (d. 1338) under the_ title Mara$id ul-Ittila (ed. T. G. J. Juynboll. Leiden, 1850-1864). Yaqut also wrote a dictionary of geographical homonyms, the Mushtarik (ed. F. Wiistenfeld, Gottingen, 1846). Besides all this activity in geography Yaqut gave his attention to biography, and wrote an important dictionary of learned men, the Mu'jam nl-Udaba'. Parts of this work exist in MS. in different libraries; vol. i. has been edited by D. S. Margoliouth, Irshad al-Arib II a Ma'rifat al Adlb (London, 1908)."

Justin
January 29, 2005 - 01:42 pm
Mal; the photos of Irag were outstanding. I know they were taken in 1925 because they are so labeled. But there is very little difference in the dress of the people, the markets, transportation, the bridges, etc. from what I see on tv today. The date the pictures were taken could be 2005 as well as 805.

Malryn (Mal)
January 29, 2005 - 03:28 pm
Ski Federation, Islamic Republic of Iran

Malryn (Mal)
January 29, 2005 - 03:42 pm
Picture Basra

Malryn (Mal)
January 29, 2005 - 03:53 pm
Some unusual pictures of the university at Baghdad

3kings
January 29, 2005 - 06:04 pm
It is strange JUSTIN that you see no difference in the dress of Iranians in those 1925 Harvard photos, and the dress of Iranians today. (Your #748)

Take a look at the folk in those photos of people in Baghdad Uni for instance.

I was interested to note in the photo where the Uni visitors met the Chancellor, or some such dignitary..

The Englishman was sitting erect, while the Iranian was reclining almost horizontally. I seem to remember other pictures where the most important person in the group was lying in a supine attitude.

Here in the South West Pacific islands, the opposite is the rule. It is considered by the islanders most improper for a subordinate to have his head above that of his employer etc. Consequently, in an interview, the Islander will lean back and slump down in his chair, all in an attempt to keep his head lower than that of the interviewer.

White NZers are taught to follow the English, and sit up straight, and not slouch etc. Until we learned that it was a cultural thing, we used to say " What is the matter with these Islanders. Don't they know good manners and behaviour in interviews etc. LOL. ++ Trevor

Malryn (Mal)
January 29, 2005 - 07:59 pm
Ancient optical lens -- Baghdad

Baghdad pictures and text

Justin
January 29, 2005 - 10:23 pm
Trevor: I know you meant to say Iraq not Iran. Why should it be so strange? Most of those you were looking at in Bagdad U. westerners and the remaining folks were associated with the University. That's an island. It appears there are roads in Bagdad that are paved and partially filled with cars. If the photographer had not been so selective my guess is he/she could easily have found exact duplicates for the 1925 photos with camels and ramshackle market buildings.

Fifi le Beau
January 29, 2005 - 11:55 pm
It is late but I have read through all the links Mal has given us. The first one on Yaqut who is called an Arab geographer and biographer even though he was born in Greece of Greek parents. I would think that would make him 'Grecian'. I know better but our current leader would call him that and I could not resist.

He is not Arab nor does it say he was muslim, but the muslims claim everything was invented by them, so don't be surprised if they also invented the computer. It's next. I have found Yaqut the Greek on several web sites as one of the muslim creators, with no mention of Greece.

As for the optical lens supposedly found in Baghdad, the British museum has been taken in before by these shysters, so this wouldn't be the first time. It looks 18th century to me.

The web site with the optical lens story was interesting. It had been taken from a chinese site that I clicked on and did not translate. Interesting Swastika on the right side of the page and I can't imagine what that's all about.

Master Li who has the 'Pure Insight' home page writes on Fulan Dafa and lectures all over the west, so he probably is living here. I will go back and read the entire website, as I am always interested in how con artists and shysters work.

Here is a link to the muslim claims of inventions, and it only covers a small amount of the claims they are making now. I find it unusual that they put the word muslim on their 'claims' of discovery. It would be like someone saying the Episcopal 'toothbrush' or the Methodist 'microwave' or the Baptist 'nylon stockings'.

The rumblings on their web sites have the internet as their next 'invention'.

We have a small disagreement going on in my area. It seems that some muslims living here have been giving lectures and teaching on Islam and instead of them having it in their own facilities they wanted to hold them at TSU a predominantly black university, and they got turned down. They then turned to another University who will let them begin tomorrow at 10:00 AM.

I began to look for information on this group and now have a bio on all the leaders, and if the ice storm doesn't stop me, I will be there tomorrow. What I found most interesting was a source on the 'muslims discovered America' sham. They have now added that all the American Indians were muslim too when they got here. Their brazeness knows no bounds.

I don't think they allow recorders, but thats OK because I have a tape of the lecture given at a local church. Islam may have begun as a copying of Judaism, but it is now a dangerous political ideology for Totalarism run from Saudi Arabia.

Muslims invent dirt

Fifi

Malryn (Mal)
January 30, 2005 - 01:13 am

Give me more proof that I'm being conned, FIFI, please.

Sleeting here, but the power is still on.

Swastika

Mal

Bubble
January 30, 2005 - 01:53 am
Fifi, they forgot an item on their list of inventions (tongue in cheek).

I have seen in the University of Marseille Museum attached to the school of medicine some beautiful ancient sets of scapels with the handle engraved in arabic characters. Probably a blessing and the name of the owner. Other sets were with hebrew characters, the owners being famous rabbis.

Malryn (Mal)
January 30, 2005 - 02:08 am
The scholars of Islam in this period strengthened the foundations of a distinguished literature by their labors in grammar, which gave the Arabic tongue logic and standards; by their dictionaries, which gathered the word wealth of that language into precisioin and order; by their anthologies, encyclopedias, and epitomes, which preserved much that was otherwise lost; and by their work in textual, literary, and historical criticism. We gratefully omit their names and salute their achievement.

Those whom we remember best among the scholars are the historians, for to them we owe our knowledge of a civilization that without them would be as unknown to us a Pharaonic Egypt before Champollion. Mohammad ibn Isbaq ( d. 767 ) wrote a classical Life of Mohammed; as revised and enlarged by Ibn Hisham ( 763 ) it is ---- barring the Koran ---- the oldest significant Arabic prose work that has reached us.

Curious and tireless scholars composed biographical dictionaries of saints, or philosophers, or viziers, or jurors, or phjysicians, of calligraphers, or mandarins, or lovers, or scholars. Ibn Qutaiba ( 848-89 ) was one of many Moslems who attempted to write a history of the world, and unlike most historians he had the courage to set his own religion in that modest perspective which every nation or faith must bear in time's immensity.

Mohammad al Nadim produced in 987 an Index of Sciences (Fibrist al-'ulum ), a bibliography of all books in Arabic, original or translated, on any branch of knoweldge, with a biographical and critical notice of each author, including a list ofhis virtues and vices. We may estimate the wealth of Moslem literature in his time by noting that not one in a thousand of the volumes that he named is known to exist today.

The Livy of Islam was Abu Jafar Mohammad al-Tabari ( 838-923 ). Like so many Moslem writers, he was a Persian, born in Tabaristan, south of the Caspian Sea. After several years spent as a poor, wandering scholar in Arabis, Syria and Egypt, he settled down as a jurist in Baghdad. For forty years he devoted himself to composing an enormous universal chronicle --Annals of the Apostles and Kings ( Kitah akhbar al-Rusul wal-Muluk ) ---- from the creation to 913.

What survives fills fifteen large volumes; we are told that the original was ten times as long. Like Bossuet, al-Tabari saw the hand of Goid in every event, and filled his early chapters with pious nonsense: God "created men to test them"; God dropped upon the earth a home built of rubies for Adam's dwelling, but when Adam sinned God drew it up again.

Al-Tabari followed the Bible in giving the history of the Jews; accepted the Virgin Birth of Christ ( Mary conceived Jesus because Gabriel blew in her sleeve ), and ended Part One with Jesus' ascension into heaven.

Part Two is a far more creditable performance, and gives a sober, occasionally vivid, history of Sasanian Persia. The method is chronological, describing events year by year, and usually traditional -- tracing the narratives through one of more chains of Hadith to an eyewitness account or contemporary of the incident. The method has the virtue of stating sources carefully, but as Al-Tabari makes no attempt to coordinate the diverse tradiitons into a sustained and united narrative his history remains a mountain industry rather than a work of art.

Gabriel blew into Mary's sleeve?

It sounds to me as if many of these works are a combination of fact and fantasy. Like the Bible?

How much of our own history occurred only in the imagination of the writer?

Sunknow
January 30, 2005 - 02:12 am
Mal - I agree with Fifi assessment regarding Yaqut: I also rebelled at calling him an Arab, when he was born in Greece of Greek parents.

I feel so many time, the Muslims take much undue credit, and none of the blame, and frequently I sound cross and angry when I say that if they are such a peace loving, wonderful people, then how can they tolerate the dreadful things done in the name of Islam. And why do they always make excuses for their unspeakable acts and never speak out against all the those that commit them.

So I was pleased late last year (and reported it here) about our local group of Muslims that joined our Jewish people, and built a Habitat for Humanity House for a Christian Black woman and her children.

I am pleased again today to note yet another article in our local newspaper about this group. I will record only part of it here, that our group of "Muslims Espouse Democracy."

"Just days before democratic elections in Iraq, East Texas Muslims spoke out to support democracy worldwide, stand against dictatorships and renounce terrorist acts done in the name of Islam. The board of the East Texas Islamic Society, made up of eight men and one woman from multiple countries, was united in its statement: "It is our desire to see democracy in all Islamic countries of the world and not only Islamic countries, but all countries"

"Reiterating the position on terrorism the board released in June, ETIS board spokesman Anwar Khalifa said: "We Muslims wish to state clearly that those who commit acts of terror, murder and cruelty in the name of Islam are not only destroying innocent lives, but also betraying the values of the faith they claim to represent. No injustice done to Muslims can ever justify the massacre of innocent people, and no act of terror will ever serve the cause of Islam."

"We repudiate and disassociate ourselves from any Muslim group or individual who commits such brutal and un-Islamic acts. We refuse to allow our faith to be held hostage by the criminal actions of a tiny minority acting outside the teachings of both the Quran and prophet Mohammed, peace be upon him."

The destruction of the New York's World Trade Center towers on Sept. 11, 2001, affected Islam, too, Khalifa said.

"The terrorists not only hijacked airplanes," he said. "They also hijacked an entire religion." (end) * Patrick Butler covers religion for the Tyler Paper.

(The one woman and three of the men on the board of this group are Americans, one man is Eqyptian and three men from Pakistan.)

In fairness, I suppose if Yaqut must be called Greek, and not Arab.....I must admit that even if I do appreciate the above statement, the fact that four of these eight board members are Americans, and the remainder of the group from the a couple of the more peaceful of the Muslim countries, then their nationality does color the statement a little. Still it's better than pleading for understanding, and holds the guilty accountable.

Sun

Malryn (Mal)
January 30, 2005 - 02:22 am

From an Islamic site: "The Golden Age"

Sunknow
January 30, 2005 - 02:34 am
"How much of our own history occurred only in the imagination of the writer?"

A lot, I imagine, Yes...like some parts of the Bible.

Sun

(Mal - Hope your electric power hangs in there. Keep warm)

Malryn (Mal)
January 30, 2005 - 02:27 pm
"Al-Masudi, al-Tabari's greatest successor, ranked him as al-Masudi's greatest predecessor. Abu-I-Hassan Ali al-Masudi, an Arab of Baghdad, traveled through Syria, Palestine, Arabia, Zanzibar, Persia, Central Asia, India, and Ceylon; he claimed even to have reached the China Sea. He gathered his gleanings into a thirty volume encyclopedia, which proved too long for even the spacious scholars of Islam; he published a compendium, also gigantic; finally ( 947 ) --- perhaps realizing that his readers had les time to read than he had to write --- he reduced his work to the form in which it survives, and gave it the fancy title Meadows of Gold and Mines of Precious Stones.

Al-Masudi surveyed omnivorously the geography, biology, history, customs, religion, science, philosophy, and literature of all lands from Cbna to France; he ws the Pliny as well as the Herodotus of the Moslem world. He did not compress his material to aridity, but wrote at times with a genial leisureliness that did not shun, now and then, an amusing tale. He was a bit skeptical in religion, but never forced his doubts upon his audience. In the last year of his life he summarized his views on science, history, and philosophy in a Book of Information, in which he suggested an evolution "from mineral to plant, from plant to animal, and from animal to man."

Perhaps these views embroiled him with the conservatives of Baghdad, hew as forced, he says "to leave the city where I was born and grew up." He moved to Cairo, but mourned the separation. "It is the character of our time," he wrote, "to separate a sign of moral uprightness to be attached to the place of one's birth; it is a mark of noble lineage to dislike separation from the ancestral hearth and home." He died at Cairo in 956 after ten years of exile.

Malryn (Mal)
January 30, 2005 - 02:30 pm
At their best these historians excel in the shape of their enterprise and their interests; they properly combine geography and history, and nothing human is alien to them; and they are far superior to the contemporary historians in Christendom. Even so they lose themselves too long in politics and war and wordy rhetoric; they seldom seek the economic, social and psychological caues of events; we miss in their vast volumes a sense of orderly synthesis, and fin dmerely a congeries of uncoordinated parts -- nations, episodes, and personalities.

They rarely rise to a conscientious scrutiny of sources, and rely too piously upon chains of tradition in which every link is a possible error or deceit; in consequence their narratives sometimes degenerate into childish tales of portent, miracle and myth.

As many Christian historians ( always excepting Gibbon ) can write medieval histories in which all Islamic civilization is a brief appendage to the Crusades, so many Moslem historians reduced world history before Islam into a halting preparation for Mohammed.

But how can a Western mind ever judge an Oriental justly? The beuaty of the Arab language fades in translation like a flower cut from its roots; and the topics that fill the pages of Moslem historians, fascinating to their countryman, seem aridly remote from the natural interests of Occidental readers, who have not realized how the economic interdependence of people ominiously demand a mutual study and understanding of East and West.


Durant has said a lot here. Al-Masudi was exiled because he suggested a kind of evolution. Was and is independent questioning and thinking difficult in Islam?

Durant asks how a Western mind can ever judge an Oriental justly. Is it possible? What do you think?

At the end he talks about economic interdependence of people demanding study on both sides and an understanding of East and West. Is the lack of that what we're seeing now, and what we've seen down through the ages?

JoanK
January 30, 2005 - 05:13 pm
His description of what a historian ought to do is interesting too. I'm sure he's thinking of his own task. Do we feel he has lived up to his own standards?

Fifi le Beau
January 30, 2005 - 08:54 pm
Durant writes:

They rarely rise to a conscientious scrutiny of sources, and rely too piously upon chains of tradition in which every link is a possible error or deceit; in consequence their narratives sometimes degenerate into childish tales of portent, miracle and myth.

Thank you Mr. Durant. I care not for portent (omens), miracle and myth. If you label them as such I will avoid them, but when they are used to justify an argument as fact, it must be pointed out by rational people that myth as reality is childish, and shows deceit.

The U.S. government in the 90's appointed as Ambassador to Saudi Arabia, a man who was fluent in Arabic. The Saudis objected strenuously and he was recalled.

This was the first Ambassador who had ever been appointed to that area who actually spoke and read Arabic. He was an intelligent, well spoken man who had lived and worked in the middle east, but the Saudis didn't want anyone who could understand what was being said amongst themselves in his presence.

The Saudis interest was not in diplomacy, but deceit. That is how I see most of the muslim writing I am currently reading. The few muslims who speak out against this kind of deceptive intrigue have influenced me in my reading. Their lives are in danger and they must work in the dark under false names.

What does it say about any religion that they can stand no criticism or tolerate any dissent? They cease at that point being a religion and become a political ideology bent on power.

Fifi

Malryn (Mal)
January 30, 2005 - 10:18 pm
SCIENCE

In those lusty centuries of Islamic life the Moslems labored for such an understanding. The caliphs realized the backwardness of the Arabs in science and philosophy, and the wealth of Greek culture surviving in Syria. The Umayyads wisely left unhindered the Christian, Sabiean, or Persian colleges at Alexandria, Beirut, Antioch, Harran, Nisibis, and Jund-i-Shapur; and in those schools the classics of Greek science and philosophy were preserved, often in Syriac translations. Moslems learning Syriac or Greek were intrigued by these treatises, and soon translations were made into Arabic by Nestorian Christians or Jews. Umayyad and abbasid princes stimulated this fruitful borrowing.

Al-Mansu, al-Mamun, and al-Murawkkil dispatched messengers to Constantinople and other Hellenistic cities --- sometimes to their traditional enemies the Greek emperors --- asking for Greek books, especially in medicine or mathematics; in this way Euclid's Elements came to Islam. In 830 al-Mamun established at Baghdad, at a cost of 100,000 dinars ( $950,000 ) a "House of Wisdom" ( Bayt al-Hikmah ) as a scientific academy, an obervatory and a public library; here he installed a corps of translators, and paid them from the public treasury. To the work of this institution, thought Ibm Khaldun, Islam owed that vibrant awakening which in causes -- the extension of commerce and the rediscovery of Greece -- and results -- the flowering of science, literature, and art -- resembled the Italian Renaissance.

From 750 to 900 this fertilizing process of translation continued, from Syriac, Greek, Pahlavie, and Sanskrit. At the head of the translators in the House of Wisdom was a Nestorian physician, Hunain ibn Ishaq ( 809-73 ) -- i.e. John son of Isaac. By his own account he translated a hundred treatises of Galen and the Galenic school into Syriac, and thirty-nine into Arabic; through his renderings some impoortnat works of Galen escaped destruction.

Further, Hunain translated Artistotle's Categoris, Physics, and Magna Moralia, Plato's Republic, Timaeus, and Laws, Hippocrates' Aphorisms, Dioscroides' Materia Medica, Ptolemy's Quadripartitum, and the Old Testmant from the Septuagint Greek.

Al-Mamun endangered the treasury by paying Hunain in gold the weight of the books he had translated. Al-Murawakkil made him court physician, but jailed him for a year when Hunain, though threatened with death, refused to concoct a poison for the enemy.

His son Ishaq ibn Hunain helped him with his translations, and himself rendered into Arabic the Metaphysics, On the Soul, and On the Generation and Corruption of Animals by Aristotle, and the commerntaries of Alexander of Aphrodisias -- a work fated to wield great influence on Moslem philosophy.


Comments about the immensity of this body of work?

Malryn (Mal)
January 30, 2005 - 10:55 pm

History of Islamic Science

Bubble
January 31, 2005 - 01:59 am
Mal, I went in search of Hunain ibn Ishaq and his son because the names sounded so Jewish to me... Got the same pages you did on Islamic science.

It sounds so interesting. Elsewhere Hunain ibn Ishaq is said to be of Egyptian origin. They reaveled a lot in those times. I am still reading! Takes huge amount of time to absorb it all.

Malryn (Mal)
January 31, 2005 - 03:44 pm
Why the Theory of Evolution? from www.islamicity.com

Shasta Sills
January 31, 2005 - 04:03 pm
I checked to find out about the history of Islamic science and discovered it's on the web site for alchemy! I thought alchemy had disappeared when science developed. It's amazing the things you can find on the internet. And there are people who still believe in alchemy, who still practice it!

Malryn (Mal)
January 31, 2005 - 04:50 pm

Science and Civilization in Islam

JoanK
January 31, 2005 - 05:27 pm
Mal: that's extremely interesting. Mahlia, what do you think. Does this correspond to your understanding, or is it the writer's philosophy?

Justin
January 31, 2005 - 10:53 pm
Change in the definition of words can be disconcerting even for those of us who are used to having children influence the meaning of words. Adults like constancy. It's nice to be able to resort to a dictionary and know that the definition of a word has not changed since the last time one used it.

When adults like scientologists shift the meaning of common words they engender suspicion. When Muslims change the meaning of words such as "scientific," they too engender suspicion. Such actions destroy the usefulness of language and render ordinary conversation almost impossible. I can't talk to a Muslim Arab about science. We do not use the same dictionary. I can't translate Muslimeze into Westerneze. Did I really understand Naguib Mahfouz? I don't know.

Justin
February 1, 2005 - 12:27 am
I find the most amazing things in Durant. Five centuries before Galilleo, al-Biruni took it for granted that the earth was spherical and that it rotated on an axis once per day and revolved about the sun on an annual basis. 500 years later Europeans were only then struggling with the shape of the earth and it's movement. The Church discouraged such thinking by torturing Galilleo for trying to tell them what the Arabs knew half a millennium earlier. Religion can be such a hindrance in the advance of science. Al-Biruni was inclined to the Shia sect but with a tendency toward agnosticism. Objectivity is impossible without a little agnosticism and without objectivity one learns nothing and civilization stagnates.

Jan Sand
February 1, 2005 - 01:44 am
A perception of how unfortunate religious influence on science can be may be gained by reading the article in the NY Times Science section on the teaching of evolution in the USA (February 1 2005)

Malryn (Mal)
February 1, 2005 - 06:20 am
NY Times article mentioned above

Malryn (Mal)
February 1, 2005 - 07:01 am
After reading the last article I posted on Science and Civilization in Islam, I've been trying to figure out the Islamic way of looking at science. In the article we're told that Islam means "submission" to the will of God or the "Divine Will"; that all people are Muslim, that the Islam view of science is gnostic, or one with nature.

It goes on to say that nature is a "fabric of symbols", and that the Koran is the "counterpart of the text with words and "both Nature and the Quran speak forthe the presence and word --- of God." It says that Islam stands for unity, which is "abstract from the point of view of man," just as mathematics is abstract.

What this says to me is that Islamic science is what is written in the Koran. My western, non-Christian, non-Islamic mind tells me this is a very unscientific way to approach science. Now come in, please, and tell me where I'm wrong.

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
February 1, 2005 - 07:38 am
By 850 most of the classic Greek texts in mathematics, astronomy, and medicine had been translated. It was through its Arabic version that Ptolomy's Almagest received its name; and only Arabic versions preserved Book V-VII of the Conics of Apollonius of Perga, the Mechanics of Hero of Alexandria, and the Pneumatics of Philo of Byzantrium. Strange to say, the Mohammedans, so addicted to poetry and history, ignored Greek poetry, drama, and historiography; here Islam accepted the lead of Persia instead of Greece.

It was the misfortune of Islam and humanity that Plato, and even Aristotle, came into Moslem ken chiefly in Neoplatonic form: Plato in Porphyry's interpretation, and Aristotle discolored by an apocryphal Theology of Aristotle written by a Neoplatonist of the fifth or sixth century, and translated into Arabic as a genuine product of the Sagarite. The works of Plato and Aristotle were almost completely translated, though with many inaccuracies, but as the Moslem scholars sought to reconcile Greek philosophies with the Koran, they took more readily to Neoplatonic interpretations of them than to the original books themselves. The real Aristotle reached Islam only in his logic and his science.

The continuity of science and philosophy from Egypt, India, and Babylonia through Greece and Byzantium to Estern and Spanish Islam, and thence to northern Europe and America, is one of hte brightest threads in the skein of history, Greek science, though long since enfeebled by obsurantism, misgovernment, and poverty, was still alive in Syria when the Moslems came; at the very time of the conquest Severus Sebokht, abbot of Ken-nesre on the upper Euphrates, was writing Greek treatises on astronomy, and was making the first known mention of Hindu numerals outside of India ( 662 )

The Arabic inheritance of science was overwhelmingly Greek, but Hindu influences ranked next. In 773, at al-Mansur's behest, translations were made of the Siddhantas --- Indian astronomical treatises dating as far back as 425 B.C.; these versions may have been the vehicle through which Arabic numerals and zero were brought from India into Islam.

In 813 al-Khwarizimi used the Hindu numerals in his astronomical tables; about 825 he issued a treatise known in its Latin form as Algoritmi de numero Indorum -- "al-Khwarizmi on the Numberal of the Indians"; in time "algorithm" or "algorism" came to mean any airthmetical system based om the decimal notation.

In 976 Muhammad ibn Ahmad, in his Keys of the Sciences remarked that if, in a calculation, no number appears in the plac of tens, a little circle should be used "to keep the rows." This circle the Moslems called sifr, "empty", whence our cipher; Latin scholars transformed sifr into zephyrum, which the Italians shortened into zero.



Translations of the Greek were Neoplatonic: "The works of Plato and Aristotle were almost completely translated, though with many inaccuracies,"

What was "Lost in Translation"?

Malryn (Mal)
February 1, 2005 - 10:34 am
Islamic perspective on stem cell research

Malryn (Mal)
February 1, 2005 - 10:50 am
SHASTA commented on alchemy. Below is a link to an article about an Islamic alchemist, "The Father of Chemistry".

www.islamicity.com: Father of Chemistry

Physics of the Day of Judgment from www.islamicity.com

Shasta Sills
February 1, 2005 - 04:43 pm
With reference to Mal's post #777, I agree the Islamic approach to science is not what we Westerners would call scientific, but it does help me to understand how the Islamic mind works. It helps me to appreciate a viewpoint that is totally different from my own.

Justin
February 1, 2005 - 05:46 pm
At last, there is an Islamic position on an important issue with which I can agree. The article in Mal's link describes the conclusions of Islamic jurists after reviewing stem cell research in terms of Sharia restrictions. These jurists conclude that such research is obigatory. The jurists restrict activity to cells generated for in vitro fertilization. I would go further and include the production of cells specificlly for research. However, I can be satisfied with this limited endorsement. It is more than the Church and evangelicals will allow me and it is more than my own government will endorse.

Persian
February 1, 2005 - 05:52 pm
JUSTIN - in your earlier comments, you mentioned that you cannot speak with Muslim Arabs about science since you use a different dictionary. Did you mean Muslim Arabs who are scientists by profession or people in general on the topic of science? Are you acquainted with Muslim Arab scientists?

Malryn (Mal)
February 1, 2005 - 10:23 pm
Algebra, which we find in the Greek Diophantes in the third century, owers its name to the Arabs, who extensively developed this detective science. The great figure here --- perhaps the greatest in medieval mathematics --- was Mohammad ibn Musa ( 780-859 ), called al Khwarizimi from his brithpplace Khwarizm ( now Khiva ), est of the Caspian Sea.

Al-Khwarizmi contributed effectively to five sciences: he wrote on the HIndu numerals, compiled astronomical tables which, as revised in Moslem Spain, were for centuries standard among astronomers from Cordova to Chang-on; formulated the oldest trigonometrical tables known; collaborated with sixty-nine other scholars in drawing up for al-Mamun a geographical encyclopedia; and in his Calculation of Integration and Equation gave analytical and geometrical solutions of quadratic equations. This work, now lost in its Arabic form, was translated by Gerard of Cremona in the twelve century, was useed as a principal text in European universities until the sixteenth century and introduced to the West the word "algebra" (al-jabr -- "resittution," "completion").

Thabit ibn Qurra ( 816-901 ), besides making important translations, achieved fame in astronomy and medicine, and became the greatest of Moslem geometers. Abu Abdallah al-Battani ( 850-929 ), a Sabaean of Raqqa known to Europe as Albetegnus, advanced trigonometry far beyond its beginnings in Hipparchus and Ptolemy by substituting triangular for Ptolemy's quadrilateral solutions, and the sine for Hipparchus' chord; he formulated the trigonometrical ratios essentially as we use them today.

The Caliph al-Mamun engaged a staff of astronomers to make observations and records, to test the findings of Ptolomy, and to study the spots on the sun. Taking for granted the position of the sun from both Palmyra and the plain of Sinjar; their measurement gave 563 miles -- half a mile more than our present calculation; and from their results they estimated the earth's cicumference to approximate 20,000 miles. These astronomers proceeded on completely scientific principles; they accepted nothing as true which was not confirmed by experience or experiment.

One of them, Abu'l-Farghani, of Transoxiana, wrote ( c. 860 ) an astronomical text which remained in authority and Western Asia for 700 years. Even more reknowned was al-Bartani; his astronomical observations, continued for forty-one years, were remarkable for their range and accuracy; he determined many astonomical coefficients with remarkable approximation to modern calculations --- the precession of th eeqinoxes at 54 .5" a year, and the inclination of the ecliptic at 23 degrees 55'. Working under the patronage of the early Buwayhid rulers of Baghdad, Abu'l-Wafa ( in the disputed opinion of Saddlot ) discovered the third lunar variation 600 years before Tycho Brahe.

Costly instruments were built for the Moslem astonomers; not ony astrolabes and armillary spheres, known to the Greeks, but quadrants with a radius of thirty feet, and sextants with a radius of eighty. The astrolabe, much improved by the Moslems, reached Europe in the tenth century, and was widely used by mariners till the seventeenth. The Arabs designed and constructed it with aesthetic passion, making it at once an instrument of science and a work of art.



I studied algebra, geometry, trigonometry and solid geometry in high school, but don't remember hearing about these Muslim mathematicians and scientists.

Are there any astronomers among us?

Malryn (Mal)
February 1, 2005 - 10:27 pm

al Khawarizimi: www.islamicity.com

Al Farghani

Malryn (Mal)
February 1, 2005 - 10:29 pm

Picture: Astrolabe

Medieval Muslims: Mathematics

Justin
February 1, 2005 - 10:29 pm
Mahlia: Judging only from what Durant has said the term Muslim Arab Scientist is an oxymoron. As I understand it Muslim science is concerned with the Koran and its message.Is that not so? No, I am not acquainted with a Muslim scientist. I suppose that anyone who strives to grasp what is written in the Koran can be termed a Muslim Arab Scientist. I wish I knew some educated Muslims, who would talk to me about their outlook on life.

Justin
February 1, 2005 - 11:07 pm
Maps employing a trigonometric sine of the distance to Meccah is a very unigue directional device that Europeans would have been thrilled to have at their disposal in 1500. Although European geographers and explorers were looking for places of unknown location they would have found the concept useful for finding known destinations.

Al-Biruni was a Muslim scholar of very high quality. He achieved objectivity not by following the Koran but by a tendency toward agnosticism, assiduity in research, and critical in the scrutiny of traditions and text.

Durant says that Chemistry as a science was almost invented by Muslims, who as alchemists were in search of the philosopher's stone. After the tenth century the science of chemistry gave way to occultism. These "scientists" appear to have functioned using controlled experiments and careful records-all elements of the scientific method.

Malryn (Mal)
February 2, 2005 - 05:08 am
Al-Biruni

Persian
February 2, 2005 - 11:06 am
JUSTIN - I shared your comment "I suppose that anyone who strives to grasp what is written in the Koran can be termed a Muslim Arab Scientist" with my husband, an Egyptian Muslim university professor. His response: There seems to be confusion about the terms "Muslims," and "Arabs." Not everyone who tries to understand the deepest teachings of the Qur'an is a Muslim or Arab. And certainly those who undertake an depth study would not be assumed to be "scientists." The scientific aspects of the Qur'an can be understood only with determined and consistent study, discusing specific points with those individuals more learned, in much the same way that Hebrew scholars encourage their students to strive to always seek a better understanding of Torah."b

He also commented that much of what is undestood in the WEst by non-Muslims about Islam is really rooted in cultural traditions, NOT in Islam.

MOhamed suggested that if you truly are interested in talking about these issues with Muslims, contact a local mosque, speak with the Imam and then plan to attend one of the mens' discussion groups. and others (non-Muslims and non-Arabs) who read and study the Qur'an, discuss the teacings and attempt to grasp the deepest meanings.

Bubble
February 2, 2005 - 11:23 am
Mahlia, would those who form such study groups at the mosque do that in English and not in the written text language?

3kings
February 2, 2005 - 04:25 pm
It would seem that some think that scientists in the Muslim world spend their time trying to advance scientific knowledge by studying the Qur'an, a tome no more 'scientific' than the Bible. I'm sure the true study of science in the Middle East has always been much more soundly based than that.

It is as if lay persons tried to grasp the theory evolution by reading the words of the 'creationists', who claim to understand the existence of life by what they read in the Bible. ++ Trevor

Justin
February 2, 2005 - 04:27 pm
Judging from what you say, Mahlia, there are scientific aspects to the Qur'an. I recognize what Mohamad is saying about Muslim Arab scientists. I, clearly, should not have used the two as adjectives to describe scientist. But Mohamad goes beyond that when he says "one who studies the Qur'an in depth is not called a scientist." I felt certain I had read that in Durant but I cannot now find the line. I think Mal must have read the same line because she also commented on the concept.

You know that I have been trying over the years to enlist the services of a knowledgeable and articulate Muslim to talk to our little group. We have had someone from the university (Cal) talk to us several times about the history of Islam and the Middle East. Now the person who always enjoyed making arrangements for such events has passed away and we are at loose ends again.

The west owes an enormous debt to Islam for it's translations of Greek works,and for the it's contributions to mathematics, astronomy, geography, chemistry, biology, medicine, and optics. The contributions were not small. Some, such as the convenience of the zero in keeping ordered rows in addition is a contribution of enormous significance.

JoanK
February 2, 2005 - 08:06 pm
On zero: I seem to recall that when a Greek mathematician tried to introduce the concept of zero, he was executed as a heretic, because the concept of nothingness violated the religious ideas of the Greeks. In every culture there seems to be some conflict between science and certain rigid religious ideas. This does not mean that there haven't been many great Greek mathematicians and scientists.

Fifi le Beau
February 2, 2005 - 09:50 pm
Here is an article about the first use of zero. If you read the entire article, it shows that the muslims took the books of the countries they invaded and used work that had been done centuries before their rise.

I thought Durant gave India the credit for the use of zero in one of the earlier books.

The Arabs insisted that converts (by the sword) take arab names. Though most of these named scientists have Arab names, they are not Arab at all. The Arabs created Islam and they claim their country Arabia as the center of and leader of all Islam, and they claim any invention or science as Islamic, when it is actually the work of other peoples from other countries who were invaded by these muslim hordes and certainly were not muslim when they wrote these books in far away India or Greece or Spain or other areas of invasion and occupation.

Zero + Zero = Zero

Fifi

Persian
February 2, 2005 - 09:50 pm
BUBBLE - from my own personal experiences in arranging for non-Muslims to visit and participate in study groups at the mosques in the metropolitan Washington DC area (where lived until last summer), the hosts have always been able to provide discussions in English, readings in Arabic and English, study points with BOLD underlining to draw the attention of the non-Muslim reader to specific points which might be overlooked by someone of a different religious background. The reception of individuals whom I have known personally has always been warm and friendly. On several occasions, men belonging to the mosque invited the guests to meet with them on other occasions to conitnue their discussions, introduce other points of mutual interest (or confusion, which encouraged more discussion) and generally answered whatever questions arose from the non-Muslims.

In my own case, I have attended study groups for women where non-Muslimas were equally warmly welcomed, their questions given respectful attention and the answers provided tended to be offered freely and with much encouragement to ask additional questions, offer comments or argue certain points. The host participants (all Muslims) were from various educational, professional and socio-economic levels.

During a 6 months tour in China, I discussed Islam with residents of one of the Western border regions (populated by a majority of Turkomen) - many of whom were illiterate, but surely knew the fundamentals of Islam and how it was incorporated into their daily lives.

And years earlier, I was impressed as I sat in a group of Iranian Muslims and Jews, who discussed Islam and the ancient Hebrew tribes, as though they were talking about their next door neighbors.

JUSTIN - since you have unfortunately lost the coordinator who arranged for guest speakers, have you considered calling the University's Speakers Bureau to inquire who they would recommend as a future speaker on whatever aspects of Islam your group might find interesting? You might also consider arranging for a video-conferencing set-up if a speaker is not available to make a site visit. I was registerd with the University of Maryland speaker's bureau for many years, as well as several in the Washington DC area, and it was quite common to be called upon to offer remarks in this fashion. Another thought: your group might consider a series of presentations, rather than just an occasional lecture, so that you could have a sense of continuity throughout 3 or 6 months (for example). If you'd like to identify the university nearest your group, I might know colleagues there who could help.

Malryn (Mal)
February 2, 2005 - 10:33 pm
Even more important than the charting of the skies was the mapping of the earth, for Islam lived by tillage and trade. Suleiman al-Tajir ---- i.e., the merchant ---- about 840 carried his wares to the Far East; an anonymous author ( 851 ) wrote a narrative of Suleiman's journey; this oldest Arabic account of China antedated Marco Polo's Travels by 415 years. In the same century Ibn Khodadhbeh wrote a description of India, Ceylon, the East Indies, and China, apparently from direct observation; and Ibn Hawqal describd India and Africa.

Ahmad al-Yaqubi, of Armenia and Khrasan, wrote in 891 a Book of the Countries< giving a reliable account of Islamic provinces and cities, and of many foreign states. Muhammad al-Muquaddasi visited all the lands of Islam except Spain, suffered countless vicissitudes, and in 985 wrote his Description of the Moslem Empire --- the greatest work of geography before al-Biruni's India.

Abu al-Rayhan Muhammad ibn Ahmad al-Biruni ( 973-1048 ) shows the Moslem scholar at his best. Philosopher, historian, traveler, geographer, linguist, mathematician, astronomer, poet and physicist -- and doing major and original work in all these fields --- he was at least the Liebniz, almost the Leonardo, of Islam. Born like al-Kharizini near the modern Khiva, he signalized again the leadership of the Transcaspian region in this culminating century of medieval science. The princes of Khwarizm and Tabarastan, recognnizing his talents, gave him a place at their courts.

Hearing of the bevy of poets and philosophers at Khwarizm, Mahmud of Gazni asked its prince to send him al-Biruni, Ibn Sina, and other savants; the prince felt obligated to comply ( 1018 ), and al-Biruni went to live in honor and studious peace with the bellicose ravisher of India. Perhaps it was in Mahmoud's train that al-Biruni entered India; in any case he stayed there several years, and learned the language and the antiquities of the county. Returning to Mahmud's court, he became a favorite of that incalculable despot.

A visitor from northern Asia offended the king by describing a region, which he claimed to have seen, where for many months the sun never set; Mahmud was about to imprison the man for jesting with royalty when al-Biruni explained the phenomenon to the satisfaction of the king and the great relief of the visitor. Mahmud's son Masud, himself an amateur scientist, showered gifts and money upon al-Biruni, who often returned them to the treasury as much exceeding his needs.

Malryn (Mal)
February 2, 2005 - 10:40 pm

History of Geology -- Al Biruni

Malryn (Mal)
February 2, 2005 - 10:45 pm

Al Biruni and Ibn Sina correspondence

Justin
February 2, 2005 - 11:08 pm
Durant in Our Oriental Heritage says about the zero,"The oldest known use of the zero is in an Arabic document dated 873, three years sooner than its first known appearance in India; but by general consent the Arabs borrowed this too from India."

I have a recollection of some earlier group inventing zero but I can not recall which one. Neither the Babylonians nor the Egyptions used zero.They used special characters for ten. While we know the Indians, the Hindus, developed the place system of counting. We know that zero was used by the Arabs to keep rows in line. They might easily have used dashes to indicate empty rows.The Arabs may have borrowed the zero from the Hindus but they put it to work and it was their copies that were preserved through the great iconoclastic periods of European history.

Algebra followed a similar route. The name is Arabic but it was developed by Greeks and Hindus. Bhaskara, an Indian, is responsible for the radical sign and negative numbers. Indians formulated the rules for finding permutations and combinations. They found the square root of two and solved indeterminate equations of the second degree around 800 CE.

Malryn (Mal)
February 3, 2005 - 08:08 am
"Another invention that revolutionized mathematics was the introduction of the number zero by Muhammad Bin Ahmad in 967 AD. Zero was introduced in the West as late as the beginning of the thirteenth century. Modern society takes the invention of the zero for granted, yet the Zero is a non-trivial concept, that allowed major mathematical breakthroughs."

Soutce: Arabic News.com

"The Development of Mathematics, suggests that zero was independently developed by the Hindus, Babylonians and Maya. The best source I know of is Morris Kline, Mathematical Thought from Ancient to Modern Times (Oxford, 1972; paperback). He reports that zero symbols are found in Alexandrian Greek documents."

Source:Ask a Scientist: Mathematics Archive

"The Babylonians were known to have used a space as a placeholder for empty 'columns' as far back as 1700 BC. Around 1400 years later, they developed the first known symbol to stand for an empty place. It looked something like YY. It didn't actually stand for the number we know as 'zero.' It was never used alone. It was only a place holder. The Mayan culture developed a symbol for the number zero, probably independently of the Babylonians, sometime later. So did the Hindu culture. The first records we have of the symbol we use for 0, is from Hindu writings from the late 9th century. There was no internet back then, but information still got around. Mostly by camelback, or foot, so it took awhile for 0 to migrate to Arab lands, (probably due to commerce). Eventually, about 400 years after South Asia and Asia Minor had been using 0 and inventing and discovering math concepts the we in the west couldn't even consider (because we were busy being 'religiously enlightened' and culturally superior) 0 finally got to the civilized (Western)world."

Source: Math Mojo. Making Math Meaningful

Malryn (Mal)
February 3, 2005 - 08:10 am

Our beachcoming facilitator has written to me and said he'll be back when the subtopic changes to MEDICINE. We'd better prepared for a hefty dose of Spring Tonic Sulphur and Molasses then.

Mal

Justin
February 3, 2005 - 01:49 pm
Zero was probably invented by the Hindus of India. It was copied and used by the Arabs. But the statement: If a+b=a then b is called zero; is a western statement.

Fifi le Beau
February 3, 2005 - 09:30 pm
It was written that Biruni said the earth moved around the sun.

It was written that Biruni said the Koran was the authority, and the Koran said that the Earth was the center of the universe hence everything revolved around it.

Can't have it both ways. Since Biruni did not write in Arabic and his work had to be translated, who knows what he said.

The works that have been 'discussed' in English, are not the translations of his claimed work, but what those 'discussing' it say it 'says'.

Islam is a political ideology from the 7th century who used Jewish and Christian writing as an enticement to lure the people who were already into rock worship and superstition.

The goal of Islam was conquest, and when they arrived they claimed everything that had not been killed as Islamic, even the rocks. (the destruction of the Buddhist sculpture in Afghanistan) Since their government was also declared Islamic, that makes Islam a political movement, and they should be viewed as such in my opinion.

Catholicism became as political when they gained power, and we shall soon see the same thing in the Dark Ages as the Pope and Cardinals enter the seats of power and scheme and connive in the government.

Fifi

Malryn (Mal)
February 3, 2005 - 10:31 pm
His ( al-Biruni ) first major work ( c.1000 ) was a highly technical treatise -- Vestiges of the Past ( Athar-ul-Bagiya ) --- on the calendars and religious festivals of the Persians, Syrians, Greeks, Jews, Christians, Sabaeans, Zoroastrians, and Arabs. It is an unusually impartial study, utterly devoid of religious animosities. As a Moslem al-Biruni inclined to the Shia sect, with an unobtrusive tendency to agnosticism. He retained, however, a degree of Persian patriotism, and condemned the Arabs for destroying the high civilization of the Sasanian regime.

Otherwise his attitude was that of the objective scholar, assiduous in research, critical in the scrutiny of traditions and texts ( including the Gospels ), precise and conscientious in statement, frequently admitting his ignorance, and promising to pursue his inquiries till the truth should emerge. In the preface to the Vestiges he wrote like Francis Bacon: "We must clear our minds . . . from all causes that blind people to the truth ---- old custom, partly spirit, personal rivalry or passion, the desire for influence." While his host was devatasting India al-Biruni spent many years studying its peples, languages, faiths, cultures and castes. In 1030 he published his masterpiece, History of India ( Tarikh al-Hind ). At the outset he sharply distinguished between hearsay and eyewitness reports, and classified the varieties of "liars" who have written history.

He spent little space on the political history of India, but gave forty-two chapters to Hindu astronomy, and eleven to Hindu religion. He was charmed by the Bhagavad Gita. He saw the similarity between the mysticism of the Vedanta, the Sufia, the Neopythagoreans, and the Neoplatonists; he compared excerpts from Indian thinkers with like passages from Greek philosohers, and expressed his preference for the Greeks.

"India," he wrote, "has produced no Socrates, no logical methods has there expelled fantasy from science." Nevertheless he translated several Sanskrit works of science into Arabic, and, as if to pay a debt, rendered into Sanskrit Euclid's Elements and Ptolomy's Almagest.

His interest extended to nearly all the sciences. He gave the best medieval account of the HIndu numerals. He wrote treatises on the astrolabe, the planisphere, the armillary sphere, and formulated astronomical tables for Sultan Masud. He took it for granted that the earth is round, noted "the attraction of all things towards the center of the earth," and remarked that astronomic data can be explained as well by supposing that the earth turn daily on its axis and annually around the sun, as by the reverse hypothesis.

He speculated that the Indus valley had been once the bottom of a sea. He composed an extensive lapidary, descrfibing a great number of stones and metals from the natural, commercial, and medical points of view. He determined the specific gravity of eighteen precious stones, and laid down the principle that the specific gravity of an object corresponds to the volume of water it displaces.

He found a method of calculating, without laborious additions, the result of the repeated doubling of a number, as in the Hindu story of the chessboard squares and the grains of sand. He contributed to geometry the solution of theorems that thereafter bore his name. He composed an encyclopeia of astonomy, as treatise on geography, and an epitome of astronomy, astrology, and mathematics.

He explained the workings of natural springs and arteisan wells by the hydrostatic principle of communicating vessels. He wrote histories of Mahmud's reign, of Subukrigin, and of Khwarizm. Orignal historians call him the "Sheik" -- as if to mean "the master of those who know" His multifarious production in the same generation with Ibn Sina, Ibn al-Haitham, and Firdausi, marks the turn of the tenth century into the eleventh as the zenith of Islamic culture, and the climax of medieval thought.

Justin
February 4, 2005 - 12:40 am
Atlast we come to al Baruni, a man who lived among Muslims, who understood Hindu and one who had an unobtrusive tendency to agnosticism. His contributions to human knowledge were enormous. Can his conributions also be assigned to Islam or did his achievements come in spite of Islam? Had this man followed the tenets of Islam he would not have had sufficient objectivity to adequately address the constructs of the material world.If one assigns the cause of events to Allah, one has found the cause and there is no need to search for natural causes.

JoanK
February 4, 2005 - 12:52 am
JUSTIN: this could be said of a believer in any religion. And yet there are many scientists who believe in a religion. Give the Islamic culture credit: it did not stifle his accomplishments, but allowed them to flourish and be published.

Shasta Sills
February 4, 2005 - 03:24 pm
Al-Baruni was a true genius. Why have I never heard of him before? Is it because I am so ill-educated? Is his name familiar to the rest of you?

Justin
February 4, 2005 - 06:45 pm
Yes, Joan. I agree. It can be said of any religious believer. I suspect few scientists are serious religious believers. Those who were born into the faith may compartmentalize their activities- Monday to Saturday belongs to Caesar and Sunday belongs to the Deity.I think that is typically the case among Christian believers. "Don't tell me I can't get drunk on Friday night and beat up my little woman, when I make a special effort to attend services on Sunday morning. After all, the minister and I are good buddies."

Justin
February 4, 2005 - 06:52 pm
Shasta: al Baruni is new to me. My exposure to middle eastern history has been very limited. I knew that the Arabs were supposed to have saved our bacon when early iconoclasts burned our classical literature but beyond that I knew very little. When Caesar destroyed the Alexandrian Library the Arabs and their translators were our grandfathered back-up.

Malryn (Mal)
February 4, 2005 - 10:22 pm
Chemistry as a science was almost created by the Moslems; for in this field, where the Greeks ( so far as we know ) were confined to industrial experience and vague hypothesis, the Saracens introduced precise observation, controlled experiment, and careful records. They invented and named the alem-bic ( al anbiq ), chemically analyzed innumerable substances, composed lapidaries, distinguished alkalis and acids, investigated their affinities, studied and manufactured hundreds of drugs. Alchemy, which the Moslems inherited from Egypt, contributed to chemistry by a thousand inidental discoveries, and by its method, which as the most scientific of all medieval operations.

Practically all Moslem scientists believed that all metals were ultimately of the same species, and could therefore be transmuted one into another. The aim of the alchemists was to change "base" metals like iron, copper, lead, or tin into silver or gold; the "philosopher's stone" was a substance -- ever sought, never found -- which when properly treated would effect this transmutation.

Blood, hair, excrement, and other materials were treated with varioius reagents, and were subjevcted to calcination, sublimation, sunlight, and fire, to see if they contained this magic al-iksir or essence. He who should possess this elixir would be able at will to prolong his life.

The most famous of the alchemists was Jabir ibn Hayyan ( 702-65 ), known to Europe as Gebir. Son of a Kafir druggist, he practiced as a phyaician, but spent most of his time with alembic and crucible. The hundred of more works attributed to him were produced by unknown authors, chiefly in the tenth century, many of these anonymous works were translated into Latin, and strongly stimulated the development of European chemistry. After the tenth century the science of cheistry, like other sciences, gave ground to occultism, and did not list its head again for almost three hundred years.

The remains of Moslem biology in this period are scant. Abu Hanifa al-dinawari ( 815-95 ) wrote a Book of Plants based on Dioscorides, but adding many plants to pharmacology. Mohammedan botanists knew how to produce new fruits by grafting; they combined the rose bush and the almond tree to generate rare and lovely flowers.

Orhman amr al-Jahiz ( d. 869 ) propounded a theory of evolution like al-Masudi's: life had climbed "from mineral to plant. from plant to animal, from animal to man." The mystic poet Jalal ud-din accepted the theory, and merely added that if this had been achieved in the past, then in the next stage men will become angels, and finally God.


Chemistry evolved from Alchemy? Well! I've known all along that all those chemists I've known in my life were beating the bush for a Phlosopher's Stone and doing it under the name of Research.

Malryn (Mal)
February 4, 2005 - 10:26 pm

Jabir ibn Hayyan

Malryn (Mal)
February 4, 2005 - 10:27 pm

Science in the Golden Age

robert b. iadeluca
February 5, 2005 - 06:10 am
My deep sincere thanks to Mal for her competent and constant week-long take-over as DL -- in addition to all the other publishing responsibilities in her life. Take a breather, Mal. I will be back shortly where we will start the section on Medicine which begins on Page 245 in the volume.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 5, 2005 - 06:36 am
Medicine

robert b. iadeluca
February 5, 2005 - 06:57 am
"Men loved life while maligning it, and spent great sums to stave off death. The Arabs had entered Syria with only primitive medical knowledge and equipment.

"As wealth came, physicians of better caliber were developed in Syria and Persia, or were brought in from Greece and ndia. Fobidden by their religion to practice vivisection, or the dissection of human cadavers, Moslem anatomy had to content itself with Galen and the study of wounded men.

"Arabic medicine was weakest in surgery, strongest in medicaments and therapy. To the ancient pharmacopeia the Saracens added ambergris, camphor, cassia, cloves, mercury, senna, myrrh. They introduced new pharamaceutical preparations -- sirups (Arabic sharah), juleps (golab), rose water, etc. One of the main features of Italian trade with the Near East was the importation of Arabic drugs. The Moslems established the first apothecary shops and dispensaries, founded the first medieval school of pharmacy, and wrote great treatises on pharmacology.

"Moslem physicians were enthusiastic advocates of the bath, especially in fevers and in the form of the steam bath. Their directions for the treatment of small pox and measles could scarcely be bettered today.

"Anesthsia by inhalation was practiced in some surgical operations. Hashish and other drugs were used to induce deep sleep.

"We know of thirty-four hospitals established in Islam in this period, apparently on the model of the Persian academy and hospital at Jund-i-Shapur. In Baghdad the earliest known to us was set up under Harun al-Rashid, and five others were opened there in the tenth century. In 918 we hear of a director of hospitals in Baghdad.

"The most famous hospital in Islam was the bimaristan founded in Damascus in 706. In 978 it had a staff of twenty-four physicians. Medical instruction was given chiefly at the hospitals. No man could legally practice medicine without passing an examination and receiving a state diploma. Druggists, barbers, and orthopedists were likewise subject to state regulation and inspection.

"The physician-vizier Ali ibn Isa organized a staff of doctors to go from place to place to tend the sick (931). Certain physicins made daily visits to jails. There was an especially humane treatment of the insane.

"But public sanitation was in most places poorly developed. In four centuries forty epidemics ravaged one or another country of the Moslem East."

Except for public health issues (which we are not that good at ourselves these days), Islam appeared up-to-date in the medical field.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
February 5, 2005 - 07:17 am
Arabic (Islamic) Influence on the Historical Development of Medicine

robert b. iadeluca
February 5, 2005 - 07:39 am
Are we, in this year of 2005, doing anything to prevent a PANDEMIC?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 5, 2005 - 09:37 am
Here are some CURRENT PUBLIC HEALTH ISSUES.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
February 5, 2005 - 09:46 am
Avian flu research

University of Maryland to head Avian flu research

Malryn (Mal)
February 6, 2005 - 09:32 am

Here is a very good site about early Islamic medicine and medical education.

Medicine and Medical Education in Islamic History

Malryn (Mal)
February 6, 2005 - 02:49 pm

Where is everybody? ROBBY, did you fly the coop again? I can't believe all of you here are Super Bowl fans.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
February 6, 2005 - 03:49 pm
No, Mal, I am NOT a SuperBowl fan. My sport interest is baseball. But I have been active in other ways and just waiting for others to react to my postings. I don't get that worked up over football games.

Robby

Justin
February 6, 2005 - 03:53 pm
Spectator sports, especially football, remind me of the Colosseum. The Roman spectators cheered when one fighter, deftly, sliced up another one and left the remains flattened on the ground. In foot ball the action is in the line. When the defense fails to hold against the offense, everyone is flattened. When the quarterback is sacked he is flattened. Football, like the Roman games is a flattening sport.Superbowl is just a super flattening game. Prat falls are more fun to watch. They are contrived to be funny.

Justin
February 6, 2005 - 04:08 pm
Nice to see you back Robby. I also enjoy baseball. I played a little in high school and have enjoyed it ever since. I suppose if I played football I would think it worth following.

Watching spectator sports is a little like smoking a cigar. When it's over it's over. It's fun while it lasts, like the daily newspaper and the aftermath is never as good as the anticipation and often the anticipation is better than the actual game. The pitcher's goal is a no hitter but the spectators goal is a hitting spree by one team.

Shasta Sills
February 6, 2005 - 04:13 pm
Super Bowl? What's a super bowl? I was reading the site that Mal mentioned in post 821. There is no doubt that Islam has made genuine contributions in medicine and other fields, but they also tend to exaggerate a lot. They discovered psychotherapy 1,000 years before Freud and Jung? When Muslims are talking about their past accomplishments, they would be more credible if they would stick closer to facts. Islamic peoples, in general, have much richer imaginations than Westerners have, and they don't see anything wrong with embroidering bare facts with a little bit of fiction.

Justin
February 6, 2005 - 04:24 pm
The early Arabs did so much with drugs and pharmacology, I wonder we do not give them credit for much that is rehashed today and sold as a wonder drug. Pharmacology is so clearly dependent upon natural products for derivatives that environmental care seems elemental but our government contrarily chooses to abuse rather than protect this vital interest. The Arabs had so little wood in the Middle East yet they achieved so much with what they had.

Persian
February 6, 2005 - 07:51 pm
SHASTA - your comment about Arabs embellishing facts reminds me of contemporary American politicians. After living and working more than 30 years in the metropolitan Washington DC area, I could almost say "business as usual."

On a more practical note, embellishment of facts (coupled with a cultural dislike of responding to direct questions) is common throughout the Middle East and Central Asia. And this behavior is NOT considered negatively, as it might be in the West. Sometimes its nervewracking (especially on very serious topics or giving directions), but it can also be humoress.

Justin
February 6, 2005 - 09:07 pm
The cultural tendency you speak of Mahlia, will make life interesting for Saddam's prosecutor.

Bubble
February 7, 2005 - 12:27 am
Mahlia, this tendency to exaggeration brings to mind Texans who have the biggest of everything.
But then Sabras do that as well, it is said to be a lack of maturity (!). Bubble

Bubble
February 7, 2005 - 01:53 am


avian flu vaccine

robert b. iadeluca
February 7, 2005 - 05:12 am
"In 931 there were 860 licensed physicians in Baghdad.

"Fees rose with proximity to the court. Jibril ibn Bakhtisha, physician to Haran, al-Mamun, and the Barmakids, amassed a fortune of 88,800,000 dirhems ($7,104,000). We are told that he received 100,000 dirhems for bleeding the caliph twice a year, and a like sum for giving him a semiannual purgative. He successfully treated hysterical paralysis in a slave girl by pretending to disrobe her in public.

"From Jibril onward there is a succession of famous physicians in Easterm Islam -- Yuhanna ibn Masawayh (777-857), who studied anatomy by dissecting apes -- Humain ibn Ishaq, the translator, author of Ten Treatises on the Eye -- the oldest systematic textbook of ophthalmology -- and Ali ibn Isa, greatest of Moslem oculists, whose Manual for Oculists was used as a text in Europe until the eighteenth century.

"The outstanding figure in this humane dynasty of healers was Abu Bekr Muhammad al-Razi (844-926), famous in Europe as Rhazes. Like most of the leading scientists and poets of his time, he was a Persian writing in Arabic. Born at Rayy near Tehran, he studied chemistry, alchemy, and medicine at Baghdad, and wrote some 131 books, half of them on medicine, most of them lost.

"His Kitab al-Hawi (Comprehensive Book) covered in twenty volumes every branch of medicine. Translated into Latin as Liber Continens, it was probably the most highly rspected and frequently used medical textbook in the white world for several centuries. It was one of the nine books that composed the whole library of the medical faculty at the University of Paris in 1395.

"His Treatise on Small Pox and Measles was a masterpiece of direct observation and clinical analysis. It was the first accurate study of infectious diseases, the first effort to distingish the two ailments. We may judge its influence and repute by the forty English editions printed between 1498 and 1866.

"The most famous of al-Razi's work was a ten-volume survey of medicine, the Kitah al-Mansuri (Book for al-Mansur), dedicated to a prince of Khurasan. Gerard of Cremona translated it into Latin. The ninth volume of this translation, the Nomus Almansoris, was a popular text in Europe until the sixteenth century.

"Al-Razi introduced new remedies like mercurial ointment, and the use of animal gut in sutures. He checked the enthusiasm for urinalysis in an age when physicians were prone to diagnose any disease by examining the urine, sometimes without seeing the patient.

"Some of his shorter works showed a genial side. One was 'On the Fact That Even Skillful Physicians Cannot Cure All Diseases.' Another was entitled, 'Why Ignorant Physicians, Laymen, and Women Have More Success than Learned Medical Men.' Al-Razi was by common consent the greatest of Moslem physicians, and the greatest clinician of the Middle Ages.

"He died in poverty at the age of eighty-two."

Your comments, please?

Robby

Bubble
February 7, 2005 - 05:50 am
I wonder in that cure for the slave woman would work as successfully nowadays.

There is no doubt that many natural cures and medicines were found by careful observation by these people living nearer nature than we do now.

Here I know there is a whole new approach. Many scientists have turned to the Bedouins to learn what plants or remedies of old they use.

In Hadassah, they hired a 'specialist' to teach them how he was so successful in treating infected wounds that would have turned gangrenous in hospital, with the most modern treatment. Thus they learned of live worms eating dead skin and cleaning successfully wounds where surgical tools could not penetrate without doing further damage. This way of disinfecting wounds is not a courant practice in at least two hospitals.

Malryn (Mal)
February 7, 2005 - 07:11 am

BUBBLE, I don't think you can compare the exaggeration of Texans to the embellishments of facts and culture of Arabs. Of course, I'm an American who never heard a Texan exaggerate anything.

Maggots are used here sometimes to treat severe infection. It's an old-time treatment from way, way back. There's something to be said for "Alternative Medicine." How about Chinese medicine that works and westerners reject?

'Why Ignorant Physicians, Laymen, and Women Have More Success than Learned Medical Men.' Al-Razi was a smart man.

It looks as if physicians were paid great amounts of money then, just as they are today. I wonder if they were put on pedestals by ordinary patients the way doctors are here? Some people treat M.D.'s as if they were God when the only thing that's different from them and others is a certain amount of knowledge and a language the rest of us don't know or take the time to learn. Why aren't scientists and philosophers treated the same way>

Mal

Persian
February 7, 2005 - 08:11 am
MAL - I think you must really be a Texan at heart!

Malryn (Mal)
February 7, 2005 - 09:20 am

Why, MAHLIA? I'm a displaced New Englander, born and bred.

Mal

Scrawler
February 7, 2005 - 12:20 pm
Sorry you guys missed a great game. They gave special tribute before the game to you guys who fought in World War II.

Justin
February 7, 2005 - 03:11 pm
Let's face it Scrawler. We are just a couple of party poopers.

Many expected the Patriots to do in the Philadelphia bunch by at least two touchdowns.That they won by three points is testimony to the quality of the kicker. Otherwise, the teams were well matched. I suppose, there were few exhibits at half time worthy of the attention given to Michael's sister at a previous game.

It's nice when entertainers pay tribute to the old guys of WW11. We love it.

Shasta Sills
February 7, 2005 - 03:12 pm
Mahlia, I was talking about scientists, not politicians. Politicians ALWAYS embellish the facts.

When Bubble commented on Texans, I thought, "My word! Has the reputation of Texans spread all over the world?" Then I realized she was probably referring to a particular Texan.

Mal, I just took my physician off his pedestal when I found out the Vioxx and Celebrex he's been giving me cause heart problems.

JoanK
February 7, 2005 - 03:21 pm
I don't think physicians are put on pedestals the way they used to be. My-daughter-the-doctor tells her students that no matter how much they study, their mother will never believe they know as much as the neighbor-down-the-street. That's not fair. I believe she knows almost as much LOL

robert b. iadeluca
February 7, 2005 - 03:30 pm
I understand that the administration proposes that veterans now pay $250 up front to receive federal health care and that their current co-pay for medication be doubled.

I can do without the special tributes at football games.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 7, 2005 - 06:32 pm
"In the school of medicine at the University of Paris hang two portraits of Moslem physicians -- 'Rhazes' and 'Avicenna.'

"Islam knew its greatest philosopher and most famous physician as Abu Ali al-Husein ibn Sina (980-1037).

"His autobiography -- one of the few in Arabic literature -- shows us how mobile might be, in medieval days, the life of a scholar or sage. Son of a money-changer of Bokhara, Avicenna was educated by private tutors, who gave a Sufi mystic turn to an otherwise scientific mind.

"Says Ibn Khallikan, with customary Oriental hyperbole, 'At the age of ten he was a perfect master of the Koran general literature, and had obtained a certain degree of information in theology, arithmetic, and algebra.'

"He studied medicine without a teacher, and while still young began to give gratis treatment. At seventeen he brought back to health the ailing ruler of Bokhara, Huh ibn Mansur, became an official of the court, and spent eager hours in the Sultan's voluminous library.

"The breakup of the Samanid power toward the end of the tenth century led Avicenna to take service under al-Mamum, prince of Khwarizm. When Mahmud of Ghazni sent for Avicenna, al-Biruni, and other intellectual lights of al-Mamun's court, Avicenna refused to go.

"With a fellow scholar, Masihi, he escaped into the desert. There in a dust storm Masihi died. Avicenna, after many hardships, reached Gurgan, and took service at the court of Qavus.

"Mahmud circulated throughout Persia a picture of Avicenna, and offered a reward for his capture, but Qabus protected him. When Qabus was murdered, Avicenna was called to treat the emir of Hamadan. He succeeded so well that he was made vizier. But the army did not like his rule. It seized him, pillaged his home, and proposed his death.

"He escaped, hid himself in the rooms of a druggist, and began in his confinement to write the books that were to make his fame. As he was planning a secrt departure from Hamadan he was arrested by the emir's son, and spent several months in jail, where he continued his writing.

"He again escaped, disguised himself as a Sufi mystic, and after adventures too numerous for our space found refuge and honors at the court of Ala ad-Dawla, the Buwayhid Emir of Isfahan. A circle of scientists and philosophers gathered about him and held learned conferences over which the emir liked to preside.

"Some stories suggest that the philosopher enjoyed the pleasure of love as well as of scholarship. On the other hand we get reports of him as absorbed day and night in study, teaching, and public affairs. Ibn Khallikan quotes from him some unhackneyed counsel:-'Take one meal a day -- Preserve the seminal fluid with care. It is the water of life, to be poured into the womb.'

"Worn out too soon, he died at fifty-seven on a journey to Hamadan, where to this day pious veneration guards his grave."

This sounds like the 1001 Nights.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 7, 2005 - 06:42 pm
Here is a BIO OF AVICENNA.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
February 7, 2005 - 09:41 pm

Scroll down to see a picture of the tomb of Avicenna in Hamadan

Sunknow
February 7, 2005 - 10:15 pm
Shasta - I decided Doctors are not Gods after dating one for several years. Did it for me. If it hadn't, the Celebrex/etal Meds pushed by one of my Doctors would have. I was also on two of those Meds, prescribed by that "former" Doctor. I truly admire the Physicians I have now.

Re: Administration. To all of you that must surly be concerned....the voting is over. Farmers, school children, veterans, and the poor or afflicted can just forget it. If you helped him win, it's too late to change your vote now.

And just for the record: HE is NOT a Texan, no matter WHAT he says. We have a lot to brag about out here in Texas, but we know where to draw the line.

Back to Durant. Avicenna's life is fascinating.

Sun

Bubble
February 8, 2005 - 01:25 am
Thanks Sun. I needed your post to understand Mal's!!! Shows how dim I can be, not being American.

Mal, Texans have quite a reputation here, as have Romanians (always stealing), Moroccans (always stabing) and Russians (always members of the Mafia). We do like to generalize...

Avicenna is someone I would have loved to meet and talked too. Incredible how in the West we have heard so little of these great men. Durant helps remediate a little that ignorance.

Malryn (Mal)
February 8, 2005 - 04:13 am

BUBBLE, I have known some Texans personally and have not heard one of them exaggerate or brag. I've been in Texas once in my life; spent two very good weeks in Houston with WREX writer, Ira Gay Sealy, who was probably one of the most well-mannered gentlemen I've ever met. For some reason I thought I wouldn't like Texas, but I loved it. Ira drove me around all over the place while I was there.

About SunKnow's comments: He spent his growing up years at Phillips Academy in Andover, Massachusetts, only a short distance from my hometown; went to Yale in New Haven, Connecticut and Harvard in Cambridge, Massachusetts and spent summers in Kennebunkport, Maine. That's about as much of a Texan as I am.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
February 8, 2005 - 04:22 am
"Avicenna was the greatest writer on medicine -- al-Razi the greatest physician -- al-Biruni the greatest geographer -- al-Haitham the greatest optician -- Jabir probably the greatest chemist -- of the Middle Ages.

"These five names, so little known in present-day Christendom, are one measure of our provincialism in viewing medieval history. Arabic, like all medieval science, was often sullied with occultism. Except in optics it excelled rather in the synthesis of accumulated results than in original findings or systematic research.

"At the same time, however haltingly, it developed in alchemy that experimental method which is the greatest pride and tool of the modern mind.

"When Roger Bacon proclaimed that method to Europe, five hundred years after Jabir, he owed his illumination to the Moors of Spain, whose light had come from the Moslem East."

There are none so blind as those who will not see?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 8, 2005 - 04:28 am
Everything you ever wanted to know but were afraid to ask about EXPERIMENTAL DESIGN.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 8, 2005 - 04:33 am
From another perspective, here are the six steps of the EXPERIMENTAL METHOD.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
February 8, 2005 - 04:57 am
"The Arabs who had wielded the arms with such remarkable success, that they had become the masters of a third of the knows world in a short span of thirty years, met with even greater success in the realm of knowledge. But the west has persistently endeavoured to under-rate the achievements of Islam.

"Writing in his outspoken book The intellectual Development of Europe, John William Draper says, " 'I have to deplore the systematic manner in which the literature of Europe has contrived to put out of sight our scientific obligations to the Mohammadans. Surely they can not be much longer hidden. Injustice founded on religious rancour and national conceit cannot be perpetuated for ever.

" 'What should the modern astronomer say, when, remembering the contemporary barbarism of Europe, he finds the Arab Abul Hassan speaking of turbes, to the extremities of which ocular and object diopters, perhaps sights, were attached, as used at Meragha?

" 'What when he reads of the attempts of Abdur Rahman Sufi at improving the photometry of stars?

" 'Are the astronomical tables of Ibn Junis (A.D. 1008) called the Hakemite tables, or the Ilkanic tables of Nasir-ud-din Toosi, constructed at the great observatory just mentioned, Meragha near Tauris (1259 A.D.), or the measurement of time by pendulum oscillations, and the method of correcting astronomical tables by systematic observations are such things worthless indications of the mental State?

" 'The Arab has left his intellectual impress on Europe, as, before long, Christendom will have to confess; he has indelibly Written it on the heavens, as any one may see who reads the names of the stars on a common celestial globe.' "

Source:

Sciences

Malryn (Mal)
February 8, 2005 - 05:00 am
Islamic Research Foundation

Malryn (Mal)
February 8, 2005 - 05:06 am

A chapter from "A Concise History of Solar and Stellar Research", Princeton University Press

robert b. iadeluca
February 8, 2005 - 07:35 pm
Philosophy

robert b. iadeluca
February 8, 2005 - 07:46 pm
"In philosophy, as in science, Islam borrowed from Christian Syria the legacy of pagan Greece, and returned it through Moslem Spain to Christian Europe.

"Many influences, of course, ran together to produce the intellectual rebellion of the Mutazilites, and the philosophies of al-Kindi, al-Farabi, Avicenna, and Averroes.

"Hindu speculations came in through Ghazni and Persia. Zoroastrian and Jewish eschatology played some minor role. Christian heretics had stirred the air of the Near East with debate on the attributes of God, the nature of Christ and the Logis, predestination and free will, revelation and reason.

"But the yeast that caused the ferment of thought in Moslem Asia -- as in Renaissance Italy -- was the rediscovery of Greece. Here, through however imperfect translations of apocryphal texts, a new world appeared -- one in which men had reasoned fearlessly about everything, unchecked by sacred scriptures, and had conceived a cosmos not of divine whimsy and incalculable miracle, but of majestic and omnipresent law.

"Greek logic, fully conveyed through Aristotle's Organon, came like an intoxication to Moslems now gifted with leisure to think. Here were the terms and implements they needed for thought. Now for three centuries Islam played the new game of logic, drunk like the Athenian youth of Plato's time with the 'dear delight' of philosophy.

"Soon the whole edifice of Mohammedan dogma began to tremble and crack, as Greek orthodoxy had melted under the Sophists' eloquence, as Christian orthodoxy would wince and wilt under the blows of the Encyclopedists and the whips of Voltaire's wit."

Amazing how knowledge erupts, disappears, reappears, disappears again -- cyclic like throughout the centuries.

Robby

Justin
February 8, 2005 - 08:26 pm
In this current moment, it is time for the Greeks to reappear. During the Renaissance in Italy, the Greeks reappeared through archeology and the discovery of Greek texts through Spain's Moorish population. Some of it was found in monasteries gathering dust. What can we do to bring the Greeks back to our present stilted century?

Malryn (Mal)
February 8, 2005 - 08:54 pm

JUSTIN: Drink Ouzo?

On the show, "The Thirsty Traveler" tonight, the host was in Lesbos learning how Greeks make Ouzo, and dining and dancing with them later. All I could think of was that marvelous Ancient Greek civilization all those thousands of years ago. Since I think we're heading for another bout of Dark Ages, maybe a trip to sunny Greece, and indulging in its national drink while there, are a good idea. Maybe anise is good for building rational, thoughtful, creative, philosophical brains?

Mal

3kings
February 8, 2005 - 09:27 pm
MAL, your wondering about the benefits of Greek alcohols reminds me of the philosophic musings of Omar Khayyam in the Rubaiyat.

Could wine be the source of his Mathematical insights ? ++ Trevor

Justin
February 8, 2005 - 11:32 pm
I agree, Mal. We do seem to be heading for another bout of Dark Ages. Superstition ( you will forgive the expression) is rampant and powerful. Free expression in the schools is denied while nonsense is encouraged. The aware among us are silent for fear of hurting the feelings of those who lead us blindly into darkness. The majority is more interested in advancing its message than in doing what is right for the country. It not only tolerates but actually supports evil fools for leaders.

Bubble
February 9, 2005 - 02:27 am
Maybe we should build safe cache of knowledge for future generations, in case all gets destroyed and becomes totally dark. An Alexandria underground library. I suppose books would be more lasting again than all the new technologies.

kidsal
February 9, 2005 - 03:57 am
Watched The House of Saud on PBS this evening. Was an interesting conversation with one of the Princes. When speaking of Islam he said don't ask me to explain it, you will never understand! Another said -- we have our own "-ism," Islam. The Wahabi cleric was frightning.

Jan Sand
February 9, 2005 - 04:17 am
It is not encouraging to read the comments here advising hidden caches of knowledge to be discovered when humanity may, sometime in the far future, recover a modicum of reality and respect solid knowledge instead of the fantasies proclaimed by those of faith. It is defeatist and reveals a strange helplessness in bodies of real knowledge as to why humanity is subject to such bouts of mental illness. If reality in human capability is so ineffective, perhaps there is a basic defect in the species. Beyond that, real science has given deluded leaders the power to so destroy the environment that the capability to recover a viable Earth may soon be beyond even the best and most rational minds to permit a sensible civilization to recover and exist.

robert b. iadeluca
February 9, 2005 - 04:41 am
"What might be called the Moslem Enlightenment had its proximate origin in a strange dispute. Was the Koran eternal or created? Philo's doctrine of the Logis as the timeless Wisdom of God -- the Fourth Gospel's identification of Christ with the Logos, the Divine Word or reason, that was 'in the beginning was God,' and 'without which was not anything made that was made' -- the Gnostic and Neoplatonic personification of Divine Wisdom as the agent of creation -- the Jewish belief in the eternity of the Torah -- all conspired to beget in orthodox Islam a correlative view that the Koran had always existed in the mind of Allah, and that only its revelation to Mohammed was an event in time.

"The first expression of philosophy in Islam (c.757) was the growth of a school of 'Mutazilites' -- i.e. Seceders -- who denied the eternity of the Koran. They protested their respect for Islam's holy book, but they argued that where it or the Hadith contradicted reason, the Koran or the traditions must be interpreted allegorically. They gave the name kalam or logic to this effort to reconcile reason and faith.

"It seemed to them absurd to take literally those Koranic passages that ascribed hands and feet, anger and hatred, to Allah. Such poetic anthropomorphism, however adapted to the moral and political ends of Mohammed at the time, could hardly be accepted by the educated intellect.

"The human mind could never know what was the real nature or attributes of God. It could only agree with faith in affirming a spiritual power as the foundation of all reality.

"Furthermore, to the Mutazilites, it seemed fatal to human morality and enterprise to believe as orthodoxy did, in the complete predestination of all events by God, and the arbitrary election, from all eternity, of the saved and the damned."

How intriguing that the same battle of the mind vs faith exists today. Will there never be a resolution?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 9, 2005 - 04:52 am
Aren't some of us here "gloating" over our superior knowledge? How do we KNOW that God does not exist? How do we KNOW that Christ was not divine? How do we KNOW that Mohammed did not truly receive a revelation? What makes our "knowledge" any more certain than those who believe in Intelligent Design? When you come right down to it, when we speak of those who do not believe in a God, aren't we merely speaking of their Belief? Why is one Belief any more correct than another?

When those of us with a scientific bent speak of the results of an experiment as having a possible error of 5%, and we believe the 95%, aren't we speaking of Faith?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
February 9, 2005 - 05:45 am

First of all I want to respond to TREVOR's Post #858, then I'm going to pick up the red flag ROBBY just dropped.

TREVOR, if you look back at my mostly tongue in cheek Post #857, you will see that I was not talking about the "benefits of Greek alcohol." What I said was, "Maybe anise is good for building rational, thoughtful, creative, philosophical brains?"

Roasted anise seeds are one of the principal ingredients used in the making of Ouzo. I've never drunk Ouzo, so didn't know it had the licorice flavor of anise until I watched that TV program last night.

There's a problem with discussions that demand reading. I've noticed that a good percentage of what is thought about carefully, and then typed and posted here, is not read correctly. This leads to misinterpretations and misunderstanding.

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
February 9, 2005 - 06:51 am

ROBBY, have you been hearing from people who read these discussions and make comments about people here who do not agree implicitly with their beliefs? Is that how this topic came about? If so, why don't these people come in and post their questions and remarks?

The red flag in ROBBY's post is the word, "gloating". His questions are valid, and his assumptions are plausible. Gloating implies a sense of superiority, and I don't see that among people here who have faith in God and believe Jesus is divine and those who don't.

I think people who object to Belief by Faith alone object to the method by which conclusions are drawn. The scientific method of hypothesis and theory or law is described below:
"A hypothesis is a 'small' cause and effect statement about a specific set of circumstances. For example, you open your refrigerator at home and are greeted with a horrible sour smell. You decide that the milk must have gone bad. This is your hypothesis. It is based on the phenomena you are observing right now (sour smell) as well as knowledge from past experience (bad milk has a sour smell). You test your hypothesis by opening the container of milk and smelling it. You find that the milk doesn't smell sour after all, so you must come up with another hypothesis (maybe it is the leftover lasagna from last week.)

"A theory or law in the world of science is a hypothesis, or many hypotheses, which have undergone rigorous tests and have never been disproved. There is no set number of tests or a set length of time in which a hypothesis can become a theory or a law. A hypothesis becomes a theory or law when it is the general consensus of the scientific community that it should be so. Theories and laws are not as easily discarded as hypotheses.

"A common error encountered by people who claim to use the scientific method is a lack of testing. A hypothesis brought about by common observations or common sense does not have scientific validity. As stated above, even though a good debater may be quite convincing as he conveys the merits of his theory, logical arguments are not an acceptable replacement for experimental testing." (Source on request.)

Malryn (Mal)
February 9, 2005 - 07:25 am

I've never known anyone in the scientific community who referred to science as a religion or what he or she did as a scientist as an act of faith.

I never knew a scientist who believed his experimentation was right or wrong without mountains of proof.

An experiment with a possible error of 5% would be discarded as not having enough proof to become a scientific law.

Yesterday I read an article written by a scientist about Intelligent Design, which I wish I'd saved. This scientist is a proponent of Intelligent Design. He says that what lay persons call Intelligent Design is not how scientists perceive it.

Today I read another article in which the author said that defenders of Intelligent Design do not reject evolution "simply because it does not fit with their understanding of the Bible," they reject Natural Selection.

He goes on to say that Natural Selection implies to advocates of Intelligent Design that the universe could not have been designed or created and that "to deny that God has the power to create living things using natural selection " is to assert something unknowable, which is also "inconsistent with the belief in an omnipotent creator."

Studied carefully, one will find that Darwin's theory of natural selection does not imply that God doesn't exist.

One of the things I've liked about scientists I've known is that they always leave room for doubt. They have to. If they didn't, there would be no way they could prove an experiment -- or even do one.

Are people who are not of the "scientific bent" you mentioned, ROBBY, as open-minded or tolerant?

Mal

Jan Sand
February 9, 2005 - 09:43 am
One property of a useful scientific hypothesis is that it has the capability of being disproved. There is no way to disprove either the existence of God nor the divinity of Jesus. Nor is it possible to disprove that the nearest lamp post down the street is God. The quality of being God contains so many possibilities that there is no way to disprove all of them. Insofar as I am concerned, that makes God irelevant. I allow that other people have other ideas.

robert b. iadeluca
February 9, 2005 - 11:05 am
Mal:-Don't read between the lines. Nobody has talked to me about anything. I just do what facilitators do and that is to get people to talking and maybe disagreeing. Apparently I succeeded.

Robby

Shasta Sills
February 9, 2005 - 11:16 am
I know nothing about the scientific method. I will demonstrate how the non-scientific mind works. Last night I watched that program on Saudi-Arabia on PBS. All I usually see about the Muslims on TV is pictures of suicide bombers blowing up buildings. I tend to think of all Muslims as terrorists, inhuman monsters. But here were perfectly normal human beings speaking. They were intelligent, witty, personable. One of them I liked so much that he could be my nextdoor neighbor and we could chat about the weather across the backyard fence. But then I saw he was a prince, so he probably wouldn't be living in my neighborhood. But just these few images of normal Saudis changed my whole mental picture of them. This is how the non-scientific mind works. It takes a few short-cuts to reach its conclusions.

Shasta Sills
February 9, 2005 - 11:25 am
Justin, cheer up. We may not be headed for another Dark Age just yet. Today is the first day of Lent. Give up your pessimism. My brother, who is not usually politically astute, says we have a very strong country or it couldn't be run by such mediocre men. Isn't that a cheerful thought?

Scrawler
February 9, 2005 - 12:28 pm
I believe that there will always be those that will hold dear what the ancient Greeks believed. Unfortunately, they will not always be in the majority hence "the Dark Ages." And yes, Mal, Ouzo does help when you are trying to interpret some those Greek ideals. I'm for everyone drinking Ouzo and dancing - what Dark Ages?

Malryn (Mal)
February 9, 2005 - 01:11 pm

ROBBY, with the pain I have today, I couldn't jump at anything, even a conclusion, if you paid me big bucks. Mine was a legitimate question, and I hope some lurkers will be drawn in by the bait you threw out.

SHASTA, I am not and have never have been in any way scientific, and don't come anywhere close to having a scientific mind. But I'm attracted to the scientific method, nevertheless.

Bottoms up, SCRAWLER. What's that beautiful bay at Lesbos? Let's go there.

Mal

Fifi le Beau
February 9, 2005 - 02:20 pm
From the biography of Avicenna......

"To give Islam the credit of Averroes and so many other illustrious thinkers, who passed half their life in prison, in forced hiding, in disgrace, whose books were burned and whose writings almost suppressed by theological authority, is as if one were to ascribe to the Inquisition the discoveries of Galileo" -- Ernest Renan, "Islamisme et la science", lecture given at the Sarbonne, 29 March 1883. Basel, Bernheim.

The above reinforces my argument that most writers about the rise and invasion by muslims of other countries gives all the credit of any advancement in science or philosophy to Islam or Arabs or both.

Durant has said that "Islam borrowed" from other more advanced societies that had long been in existence such as Greece and India. He also said that they wrote about what they had found but had no original findings or systematic research, except in optics. In optics much of that work was done not by Islamics but others.

The word Arab or Arabic also gets thrown around like kudzu. When the nationality of many of these writers is put forth we find that two of the most famous are actually Uzbek's from Uzbekistan. I just read about Ulughbek who was a Mongol. When you get past the Arab names the muslims put on them as an alias, you find out they aren't arab at all. Islam is like kudzu it smothers everything it touches, even to a persons identity, which of course allows them to claim everything and everyone.

I am sure there are intelligent Arabs who are capable today, but at the time of Mohammed and the rise of Islam they had produced nothing as regards science, philosophy, medicine, or literature. These disciplines only came to their attention because of the centuries of work and writing by other peoples in other countries.

Islam should get credit for being the most deceptive of all the ideologies. The idea that the Koran could only be read in Arabic, when none of the invaded countries could speak or read Arabic, and most still don't understand a word of what they're saying. The idea that everyone they put the sword to the throat had to take an Arab name is another deception that is classic mind control.

The mental midgets we currently have running this country are no match for these con artists.

Fifi

Bubble
February 9, 2005 - 02:21 pm
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=2327&e=2&u=/csm/oduelingclerics

Here is an interesting article.

Justin
February 9, 2005 - 03:16 pm
Much measurement in the face of uncertainty is done at the three sigma level which leaves about 2% open to question. Social measurement is often done at the two sigma level which leaves about 5% open to uncertainty. The question of divinity is not one subject to measurement and therefore is not reducible to the mathematics of probability.

Why does the idea of god exist in the world? History tells me that rulers employ the idea of god to keep the populace in line. Ministers encourage the idea as a means of self support. The populace buys the argument because it gives them an explanation for things they don't understand and it provides a source of appeal for the oppressed. We have seen this done repeatedly throughout history. Man is the inventor of god and most often he is made in man's male image. Occasionally, god is a woman. (Isis, Cybele etc).

Does god exist? We hear nothing from god. He speaks to no one. So what we hear of god we hear from man and no man who has lived before us knows more than we know now. We have the advantage of time and knowledge of their thoughts. No man or woman has thus far made a conclusive argument for the existance of a superior being.

Justin
February 9, 2005 - 03:36 pm
Who would have thought that dialogue using the Qur'an would be successful with al Queda members? I am all for it. Bring Hitar to Quantanomo and to al Garaib.

Justin
February 9, 2005 - 03:46 pm
Robby: There is more evidence supporting the absence of a divinity than supporting the existence of one. Remember God speaks to no one.

3kings
February 9, 2005 - 04:26 pm
MAL I knew, without your spelling it out, that you were speaking tongue in cheek when you wrote "Maybe anise is good for building rational, thoughtful, creative, philosophical brains?"

What surprises me, is that you did not understand I too was speaking tongue in cheek when, in response, I wrote of the possible benefits of alcohol to Omar Khayyam when he generated his mathematical theorems. After all his Rubaiyat is full of the joys of drunkenness, written no doubt with a cheeky grin.

Then again, I am reminded of an incident earlier when I was not speaking tongue in cheek, but you assumed I was.

Perhaps it would help if I prefaced my more jocular attempts with the statement, "This is not a serious comment, it is to be taken as a joke "? (BG ) Regards, and with admiration for your very able work in these pages. ++ Trevor

robert b. iadeluca
February 9, 2005 - 05:01 pm
Justin:-You say that God speaks to no one. Not even through a man? Not even in dreams? And can't those words the man speaks be measured?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 9, 2005 - 05:15 pm
"In a hundred variations, Mutazilite doctrines spread rapidly under the rule of al-Mansur, Harun al-Rashid, and al-Mamun.

"At first in the privacy of scholars and infidels, then in the soirees of the caliphs, finally in the lecture circles of colleges and mosques, the new rationalism won a voice, even, here and there, ascendancy.

"Al-Mamun was fascinated by this fledgling flight of reason, defended it, and ended by proclaiming the Mutazilite views as the official faith of the realm. Mingling old habits of Oriental monarchy with the latest ideas of Hellenizing Moslem, al-Mamun in 832 issued a decree requiring all Moslems to admit that the Koran had been created in time. A later decree ruled that no one could be a witness in law, or a judge, unless he declared his acceptance of the new dogma. Further decrees extended this obligatory acceptance to the doctrines of free will, and the impossibility of the soul ever seeing God with a physical eye. At last, refusal to take these tests and oaths was made a capital crime.

"Al-Mamun died in 833, but his successors al-Mutassim and al-Wathiq continued his campaign. The theologian Ibn Hanbal denounced this inquisition. Summoned to take the tests, he answered all questions by quoting the Koran in favor of the orthodox view. He was scourged to unconsciousness and cast into jail. His sufferings made him, in the eyes of the people, a martyr and a saint, and prepared for the reaction that overwhelmed Moslem philosophy."

The battle of faith/reason continues.

Robby

Justin
February 9, 2005 - 05:41 pm
Robby: You are dreaming again or listening to Mohammad or to Robertson.

moxiect
February 9, 2005 - 06:57 pm


Mans interpretation once again!

Justin
February 9, 2005 - 07:45 pm
You are so right, Moxie. That's all there is-man's interpretation.

Malryn (Mal)
February 9, 2005 - 09:00 pm

TREVOR, at first I thought your post #858 was made tongue in cheek, but then I remembered how Omar Khayyam's Al-Juggawine theorem led to Schrodinger's explanation of wave functions in quantum particles and his subsequent equation. Then I knew you were being serious. I'm just so glad we understand each other over such a very great geographical distance.

Mal

Fifi le Beau
February 9, 2005 - 10:11 pm
By the end of the first millineum reason from the Greeks had found its way into Islam but Mamun's Muslim philosophy was short lived.

The three things he decreed, the Koran was dictated and written after the death of Mohammed and was not a timeless book. Everyone had free will and therefore predestination was false. No one could ever see God. This was destined to fail, as it was opposite of what the Koran actually said.

Regarding the Judge Hitar who is also a cleric in Yemen who released the 364 al Qaeda men. This one is a no brainer. Go into any prison anywhere in the world and tell the prisoners that you will have an ideological discussion with them and if they agree with you they will be freed. Not only will they go free, but you will teach them a trade and find them a job, and get someone else to pay for it.

Yemen has got on the U.S. 'pay for pals' scheme, and it all depends on them keeping their terrorists from blowing up ships, at least as long as the plane loads of money arrives regularly. The first time the payment is late..........

Boom!

Fifi

Justin
February 9, 2005 - 10:53 pm
I will soon be installing a new computer so I will be offline for a time at least until I can bring things up on the new beast. Transferring stuff from the old to the new is an interesting experience. I want only clean things to appear on the new unit. I've put address files as well as some emails on floppies. Other things I have reduced to hard copy. If any one has had experience with this sort of thing and is willing to advise I will be delighted to hear from you. I have not disconnected the old hardware yet. I am moving from an IBM Aptiva to an IBM A50.

Jan Sand
February 9, 2005 - 11:43 pm
I have no idea as to the computer architecture you are involved in but when I have made transitions on a home built computer, the case had open spaces for extra hard drives. You can change the old master drive to a slave and install it in the new computer where the operating system is on a new master. Then it is easy to transfer data within the computer. Or you can retain the old hard drive as a data source. It is always advisable to keep vital data backups on CDs if that is possible. CD drives with DVD burning capabilities run about $60 here in Helsinki and they are a cinch to install. They have much larger data storage capacities than a standard CD and are well worth the slightly larger investment.

3kings
February 10, 2005 - 02:11 am
MAL I get your drift..... LOL ++Trevor.

dancer821
February 10, 2005 - 06:57 am
Just found this book site and as Im an avid reader, have been trying to bring myself up to date on "The Story of Civilization" I know Im far behind, but the posts and discussion by the leader has been wonderful. Since the listing shows this to be an "ONGOING" discussion of this series, can you tell me what the next discussion area will be.

Malryn (Mal)
February 10, 2005 - 07:22 am

Welcome, Dancer. We are currently discussing Volume IV of The Story of Civilization -- "The Age of Faith". After we finish discussing Islam, we'll go on to the Judaic Civilization.

Volume V is "The Renaissance." We'll probably start discussing that next fall. It takes us just about a year to go through each of these volumes.

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
February 10, 2005 - 09:35 am
The Elephant Clock: Leaf from The Book of Knowledge of Ingenious Mechanical Devices by al-Jazari

Scrawler
February 10, 2005 - 12:39 pm
Most of the time it is difficult to understand "Man" [includes woman] so how can we even hope to understand anyone or anything that is higher than ourselves or thought to be higher than ourselves. Perhaps it is enough to consider only what "man" has interpreted keeping in mind of course that "perfection" has never been "man's or woman's" nature. We are who we are.

Jan Sand
February 10, 2005 - 01:14 pm
Perfection is a rather peculiar absolute. In technical practice it has been replaced by a fractional approach to ideal behavior so that when something is constructed, each increment towards an ideal becomes a bit more difficult and a bit more expensive to attain. It is an unreacheable asymptote.

robert b. iadeluca
February 10, 2005 - 04:20 pm
Dancer:-Glad you have joined our "family." We have just begun Durant's Fourth Volume, "The Age of Faith." We have a long way to go. Whenever someone new joins us, I give the basic ground rules which are really very simple. Common courtesy and respect for each other and no proselytizing of our own religion. And although we often compare what happened a thousand years ago with what is happening now, we refrain from mentioning any names which are on the current political stage.

Feel free to throw in a thought or two and in a very short time, you will feel very comfortable being part of the discussion. At the moment we are in the section Durant titles "Thought and Art in Eastern Islam" which includes Scholarship, Science, Medicine, Philosophy, Mysticism and Heresy, Literature, Art, and Music. Following the comments of others will help you to keep within the sub-topic.

Robby

kiwi lady
February 10, 2005 - 04:44 pm
Justin I lurk here and after reading your post I had to correct you on a fact you stated as a certainty. You said God does not speak to anyone. Here is a story I have never told anyone outside the family.

My husband a non religious man went to bed one night and awoke the next morning changed. He had a spiritual dream complete with physical sensations. In the dream ( which was in 1981) he was shown there was a life after death and that he would be dying prematurely. He was also shown the love of God. He did die prematurely getting a terminal illness at age 43. He was 34 when he had that dream. He died with his faith intact. The night he had the dream he had gone up to the beach and looked at the beauty there and looked up to the sky and said. "God if you exist show me" He went home not thinking any more about it and during that night he had the dream.

That was my husbands experience. His face glowed when he awoke that morning and it was like living with a new person. Took me a while to get used to it.

Malryn (Mal)
February 10, 2005 - 04:48 pm
"Polio apparently reached Mecca, Islam's holy city, just before last month's annual pilgrimage by two million Muslims, and World Health Organization officials now fear that it could be spreading around the world, carried by returning pilgrims"

NY Times: New Spread of Polio
It's not exactly on topic, but do you have any idea how I feel about this?

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
February 10, 2005 - 04:51 pm
Kiwi Lady:-I will acknowledge that you are one of the folks here that I keep in mind when the discussion gets to the point where it seems that there are no believers.

My question remains. How do we KNOW?

Robby

kiwi lady
February 10, 2005 - 05:08 pm
Like my husbands friend said to him after being asked the same question.

Ask God to reveal himself to you. You must however be sincere in the question. I have other stories to tell but reluctant to tell them here with so many skeptics! Anyhow its really not the place!

robert b. iadeluca
February 10, 2005 - 05:14 pm
Yes, Carol. It is the place. We are in Durant's volume, "The Age of Faith." You related an experience your husband had. As you know, all that is asked is that none of try to proselytize anyone else.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 10, 2005 - 05:55 pm
"No man really becomes a fool until he stops asking questions."

- - Charles Steinmetz, German Electrical Engineer

robert b. iadeluca
February 10, 2005 - 06:10 pm
Durant continues:-

"Meanwhile that philosophy had produced its first major figure. Abu Yusuf Yaqub ibn Ishaq al-Kindi was born in Kufa about 803, son of the governor of the city. He studied there and at Baghdad, and won a high reputation at the courts of al-Mamun and al-Mutassim as translator, scientist, and philosopher.

"Like so many thinkers in that confident heyday of the Moslem mind, he was an omnivorous polymath, studying everything, writing 265 treatises about everything -- arithmetic, geometry, astronomy, meteorology, geography, physics, politics, music, medicine, philosophy.

"He agreed with Plato that no one could be a philosopher without being first a mathematician, and he struggled to reduce health, medicine, and music to mathematical relations. He studied the tides, sought the laws that determine the speed of a falling body, and investigated the phenomena of light in a book on Optics which influenced Roger Bacon.

"He shocked the Moslem world by writing an Apology for Christianity. He and an aide translated the apocryphal Theology of Aristotle. He was deeply impressed by this forgery, and rejoiced in the thought tat it reconciled Aristotle with Plato -- by turning both of them into Neoplatonists. Al-Kindi's philosophy was Neoplatonism restated. Spirit has three grades -- God, the creative World Soul, or Logos, and its emanation, the soul of man. If a man trains his soul to right knowledge he can achieve freedom and deathlessness.

"Apparently al-Kindi made heroic efforts to be orthodox. Yet he took from Aristotle the distinction between the active intellect, which is divine, and the passive intellect of man, which is merely the capacity for thought. Avicenna would transmit this distinction to Averroes, who would set the world by the ears with it as an argument against personal immortality.

"Al-Kindi associated with Mutazilites. When the reaction came his library was confiscated, and his deathlessness hung by a thread.

"He survived the storm, recovered his liberty, and lived until 873."

Your comments, please?

Robby

Justin
February 10, 2005 - 06:54 pm
Carol: Your faith seems very strong and unshakeable. It must be a great comfort to you in adversity. I can not offer countering thought for there is no ground upon which to stand. We live in different worlds.

Justin
February 10, 2005 - 07:26 pm
We ,in the west, are hampered by language, I think. There are brilliant people in the world who have not reached our consciousness because their writings have not been tranlated into a western tongue. Al Kindi, Averroes, Avicenna, and others of the Eastern world who have made contributions to world knowledge, escape western eyes. Later, westerners investigate similar areas of thought and appear as innovators. Some like Newton are able to push the envelope further.Had al Kindi Newton's calculus he too might have contributed to our understanding of falling bodies. These fellows who achieve great intellectual heights do not appear to do it from an Islamic base. They do it in spite of Islam. al Kindi did from a Mutazilides base. I agree with Fifi. Islam and other religions smother creative thought.

Jan Sand
February 10, 2005 - 09:34 pm
We perceive the universe through our senses and use our sense input to fabricate a most likely structure we accept as reality. Many interpretations of our sense input can result in an ambiguous theoretical structure and we individually choose one or another structure. A picture of the surface of the moon can be interpretated visually so that the craters can be seen either as convex or concave depending upon the unconscious assumption of where the source of light originates. Other data indicates that the craters are concave and we can adjust our perceptual interpretation to this reality. Recent research indicates that dreams are the mind's process of readjusting daily data input to change previous conceptual structures to conform closer to a more likely reality. The mind fabricates all sorts of perceptual readjustments to conform to the new data. A contact with God may be one of these readjustments. No one can demand that one interpretation of reality is more valid than another if mutual data is subject to ambiguous interpretation.

Fifi le Beau
February 10, 2005 - 09:53 pm
Al Kindi like his predecessors Avicenna and Averroes are not great original thinkers bringing the world new knowledge. They are students pouring over Plato and Aristotle.

Durant in discussing their writing, tells us first they are writing about the ideas of Aristotle and Plato. Al Kindi was deeply impressed by the Theology of Aristotle which was a forgery. His philosophy was Plato warmed over.

As Truman Capote once said, "That's not writing, that's typing."

I well remember the first paper I so proudly turned in, only to have it marked up by the professor until there were only two original thoughts left that were actually mine. I learned my lesson, redid the paper and got a great grade. I wasn't Aristotle, but I could think for myself.

I admire Al Kindi, Avicenna, and Averroes for searching out the writings of others and studying them, and giving their opinions of those writings even if some were forgeries (they had no way of knowing).

They surely were not great students of the Koran and all the hadiths and rules and regulations or they would have known better than to put forth ideas that did not fit into the dogmatic world of Islam. Al Kindi seems to have fared better than the others but Durant says that when they came for his library, 'his deathlessness hung by a thread'.

Now, if only we could all write like Durant.

Fifi

Bubble
February 11, 2005 - 03:03 am
I read this quote today and thought it was appropriate here.

If it is committed in the name of God or country, there is no crime so heinous that the public will not forgive it. -Tom Robbins, writer (1936- )

robert b. iadeluca
February 11, 2005 - 05:06 am
"In a society where government, law, and morality are bound up with a religious creed, any attack upon that creed is viewed as menacing the foundations of social order itself.

"All the forces that had been beaten down by the Arab conquest -- Greek philosophy, Gnostic Christianity, Persian nationalism, Mazdakit communism -- were rampantly resurgent.

"The Koran was questioned and ridiculed. A Persian poet was decapitated for proclaiming the superiority of his verses to the Koran (784). The whole structure of Islam, resting on the Koran, seemed ready to collapse.

"In this crisis three factors made orthodoxy victorious -- a conservative caliph, the rise of the Turkish guard, and the natural loyalty of the people to their inherited beliefs.

"Al-Mutawakkil, coming to the throne in 847, based his support upon the populace and the Turks. The Turks, new converts to Mohammedanism, hostile to the Persians, and strangers to the Greek thought, gave themselves with a whole heart to a policy of saving the faith by the sword.

"Al-Mutawakkil annulled and reversed the illiberal liberalism of al-Mamun. Mutazilites and other heretics were expelled from governmental employ and educational positions. Any expression of heterodox ideas in literature or philosophy was forbidden. The eternity of the Koran was re-established by law.

"The Shia sect was proscribed and the shrine of Husein al Kerbela was destroyed (851). The edict allegedly issued by Omar I against Christians, and extended to the Jews by Harun (807) and soon again ignored, was reissed by al-Mutawakkil (850). Jews and Christians were ordered to wear a distinctive color of dress, put colored patches on the garments of their slaves, ride only on mules and asses, and affix wooden devils to their doors. New churches and synagogues were to be pulled down and no public elevation of the cross was to be allowed in Christian ceremonies.

"No Christian or Jew was to receive education in Moslem schools."

I note the "natural loyalty of the people to inherited beliefs" and I wonder if the United States, as young as it is, already has inherited beliefs. And I further wonder if the U.S. has what it believes to be a religious creed (unofficial as it may be) tied in with government, law, and morality and that an attack by this generally understood creed is being seen by some as menacing the foundation of American social order.

Robby

Scrawler
February 11, 2005 - 12:34 pm
I think the creed of America's government lies in the "creed" of our founding fathers.

robert b. iadeluca
February 11, 2005 - 12:39 pm
What was the "creed" of our founding fathers?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 11, 2005 - 01:12 pm
For those who want to know the latest Islamic news unfiltered by the Western media, here are some MEDIA OUTLETS.

Robby

Justin
February 11, 2005 - 07:46 pm
So, the Muslims did to the Christians and Jews what the Christians later did to the Jews. They were forced to wear identifying arm badges and were treated as lower class evil outsiders. The victims, may not have objected to rules prohibiting attendance at Muslim schools but devils affixed to home doors is something else. These folks were infidels but devils? That's pretty strong. Prohibition of the Cross in religious ceremony must have been very limiting. It is so prominent in Christian service today that I can't imagine a service without the Cross displayed prominently. The only other significant symbol in Christian service is the Eucharist.

Muslim hospitality and tolerance for their brother Abrahamics was quite repressive at this time however, when compared to what the Christians later did to the Jews, the Muslim repression was almost a non event.

Fifi le Beau
February 11, 2005 - 08:35 pm
When reading the link to Media Outlets, the Saudi's most prominent newspaper OKAZ reminded me of an article by Lawrence Wright that I read in the New Yorker about a year ago.

He got permission to travel to Saudi Arabia to train some young reporters at OKAZ which was starting an English version paper. Here is a link to his article which will give an inside look at how journalism and reporting is done in Arabia.

An inside look at the Saudi press

Fifi

Justin
February 11, 2005 - 08:42 pm
This question of the creed of the founding fathers should be put to rest once for all. We know that Jefferson, Franklin, Madison, Hamilton, and Paine fully recognized the evils of religious power and strove to constrain religion's influence through the Bill of Rights. Use of byzantine language was common at the time and many of the founders used references to God in the documents they wrote as a matter of courtesy and appeal as they knew many others were believers. In the whole of the Federalist Papers there are but three references to God and all them by Madison who says things like "laws of nature and nature's God" when listing reasons to bring unification to the thirteen states after a 2/3rds vote to adopt a constitution. The same words appear in the opening paragraph of the Declaration of Independence and I suspect they are Madison's words. It says, for the people to assume ... the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them...

Madison, as some others, may have believed in God, But all fully recognized the need to protect citizens against the tyranny of religion.

robert b. iadeluca
February 12, 2005 - 01:07 am
Is RELIGIOUS FAITH in our genes?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 12, 2005 - 05:51 am
"In the next generation the reaction took a milder form.

"Some orthodox theologians, bravely accepting the gage of logic, proposed to prove by reason the truth of the traditional faith. These mutakallimun (i.e. logicians) were the Scholastics of Islam. They undertood that same reconciliation of religious dogma with Greek philosophy which Maimonides in the twelfth century would attempt for Judaism, and Thomas Aquinas in the thirteenth for Christianity.

"Abul-Hasan al-Ashari (873-935) of Basra, after teaching Mutazilite doctrines for a decade, turned against them in his fortieth year, attacked them with the Mutazilite weapon of logic, and poured forth a stream of conservative polemics that shared powerfully in the victory of the old creed.

"He accepted the predestinarianism of Mohammed without flinching -- God has predetermined every act and event, and is their primary cause. -- He is above all law and morals -- He rules as a sovereign over His creatures, doing what He wills -- if He were to send them all to hell there would be no wrong.

"Not all the orthodox relished this submission of the faith to intellectual debate. Many proclaimed the formula Bila Kayf -- 'Believe without asking how.'

"The theologians for the most part ceased to discuss basic issues, but lost themselves in the scholastic minutiae of a doctrine whose fundamentals they accepted as axioms.

"The ferment of philosophy subsided at Baghdad, only to emerge at minor courts. Sayfu'l-Dawla provided a house at Aleppo for Mohammad Abn Nasr as-Farabi, the first Turk to make a name in philosophy. Born at Fara in Turkestan, he studied logic under Christian teachers at Baghdad and Haran, read Aristotle's Physics forty times and the De Anima 200 times, was denounced as a heretic at Baghdad, adopted the doctrine and dress of a Sufi, and lived like the swallows of the air.

"Said Ibn Khallikan:'-He was the most indifferent of men to the things of this world. He never gave himself the least trouble to acquire a livelihood or possess a habitation. Sayfu'l Dawla asked him how much he needed for his maintenance. Al-Farabi thought that four dirhems ($2.00) a day would suffice.

"The prince settled this allowance on him for life."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 12, 2005 - 07:00 am
Was Abraham Lincoln A THEOLOGIAN?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
February 12, 2005 - 08:22 am

Nicholas Kristof makes it clear that if there is a such a gene it affects spirituality, not religious faith. If it's called a religious faith gene, it provides fodder for people who would like this country to be a theocracy.

I say there's insufficient evidence that such a gene exists.

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
February 12, 2005 - 08:30 am

Abraham Lincoln was a lawyer and a politician; he was not a theologian or a moralist. What is quoted below is not the only example of pro-slavery tendencies that the Great Emancipator had which I've found on the web. On Jan. 1, 1863, U.S. President Abraham Lincoln declared free all slaves residing in territory in rebellion against the federal government.

"This Emancipation Proclamation actually freed few people. It did not apply to slaves in border states fighting on the Union side; nor did it affect slaves in southern areas already under Union control."

The Civil War began as a war about an economic issue. If Lincoln and other politicians had thought slavery was economically feasible for the whole country, the slavery issue would never have been brought up.
"Slavery was another area Lincoln encountered as a lawyer. He served as counsel in two slavery cases: Bailey v. Cromwell (1841) and Matson v. Rutherford (1847). In the 1841 case, Lincoln victoriously argued for the presumption of freedom regarding an attempt to sell a black woman. (The converse presumption would have considered her a slave until she proved her freedom.) The 1847 case involved a slave owner named Robert Matson claiming return of fugitive slaves. Matson was from Kentucky and brought slaves to Coles County, Illinois, for part of the year. Jane Bryant escaped with her four children from the Coles County plantation and found refuge with local abolitionists. They were soon after found and jailed as fugitive slaves.

"Given Lincoln’s 1837 description of slavery as 'founded on both injustice and bad policy' and his 1841 advocacy, one would guess he came to aid of the runaways. In fact, Lincoln represented Matson in his desire to re-enslave Bryant and her children. He predicated his argument upon Illinois law that allowed ownership in slaves to be maintained if they were brought into the state in transit. The Illinois circuit court was unconvinced, and the disgruntled tyrant returned to Kentucky in default on his attorney fees; the Bryants left to make a new start in Liberia.

"Lincoln’s conduct here not only diverged from but defied his actions in Bailey. It was one thing to abstain from Garrisonian positions; it was another to assist a slave owner in pursuit of his 'property.'

Source:

Lincoln

Justin
February 12, 2005 - 03:06 pm
Lincoln was good lawyer and a good politician. In both roles he used language that persuaded his listeners to adopt his position. When he defended slave ownership in interstate commerce he undoubtedly did so with proslavery arguments tying in the rights of property owners and the support of Providence. On the other hand, in the second innaugural he takes the opposite tack. Here, he expresses the wishes of providence as universal in application and contrary to that of Northern theologians who saw Providence as favoring their side of the dispute.

Lincoln in my judgement is simply playing the Providence card in any way that supports his argument.It is not faith in God that he expresses but a rhetorical technique that he uses to best achieve his ends. The founding fathers used much the same reasoning in their application of the deity in national documents.

Fifi le Beau
February 12, 2005 - 03:52 pm
The Nicholas Kristof article on genetics and religion:

modern science is turning up a possible reason why the religious right is flourishing and secular liberals aren't: instinct. It turns out that our DNA may predispose humans toward religious faith.

What evidence does he give to support his idea?

Edward Wilson, the founder of the field of sociobiology, argued in the 1970's that a predisposition to religion may have had evolutionary advantages.

"The God Gene," a fascinating book published recently by Dean Hamer, a prominent American geneticist..... There's still plenty of reason to be skeptical because Dr. Hamer's work hasn't been replicated, and much of his analysis is speculative.

Speculation seems to be the basis for most of Kristof's piece. His piece looks like a quick Nexis/Lexis search, based on two sources who use speculation as their argument. I notice he doesn't give us the source of any of these so called studies about church goers living longer. He may have done a little speculating on his own on those two sources and didn't want to be associated with them.

I will do a little speculating of my own here since Kristof's piece is following the current trend in pushing the new 'religion' science connection. Our current head of this country's government is using 'payola' to buy friends and influence the common discourse.

Kristof's check may be in the mail.

Fifi

Shasta Sills
February 12, 2005 - 05:23 pm
"An Inside Look at the Saudi Press" was interesting. It was like taking a trip to Saudi Arabia.

JoanK
February 12, 2005 - 06:29 pm
"Edward Wilson, the founder of the field of sociobiology, argued in the 1970's that a predisposition to religion may have had evolutionary advantages".

I read Wilson's book on Sociobiology. It is full of hypotheses that he doesn't prove, but cites a reference which supposedly proves. Someone collected these references in a book and published it. None of the references cited to prove Wilson's assertions did so, they just stated them. Now someone else is citing Wilson to "prove" his assertion. And on and on. Unless you have months to devote to it, you can't follow all these chains back to see if there is a proof at the end of the rainbow.

I have a name for this kind of proof. I call it the "Academic Snow Job" and professors at certain prestigious universities are masters at it. You drop names, dozens and dozens of them, some of them in papers that are so obscure no one will ever find them, that fall like snowflakes over the reader and blind them to the fact that you haven't actually said anything to prove your assertion.

Fifi le Beau
February 12, 2005 - 07:12 pm
Joan your 'snow job' metaphor was right on the mark as I see it, and many thanks for the information on Wilson's book. Most of us don't have time to research all the articles written for money and filling our newspapers, magazines, books, and etc. The Kristof article seemed to be made up of such thin and non identified references that it all seemed like another 'bought' job to me.

Maybe there's a 'snow job filter' gene.

Fifi

robert b. iadeluca
February 12, 2005 - 08:06 pm
"Avicenna's metaphysics is almost a summary of what, two centuries after him, the Latin thinkers would syncretize as the Scholastic philosophy.

"He begins with a laborious restatement of Aristotle and al-Farabi on matter and form -- the four causes -- the contingent and the necessary -- the many and the one -- and frets over the puzzle of how the contingent and changeable many -- the multiplicity of mortal things -- could ever have flowed from the necessary and changeless One.

"Like Plotinus he thinks to solve the problem by postulating an intermediate Active Intelligence, distributed through the celestial, material, and human world as souls.

"Finding some difficulty in reconciling God's passage from noncreation to creation with the divine immutability, he proposes to believe, with Aristotle, in the eternity of the material world. But knowing that this will offend the mutakallimun, he offers them a compromise by a favorite Scholastic distinction -- God is prior to the world not in time but logically, i.e. in rank and essence and causes -- the existence of the world depends at every moment upon the existence of its sustaining force, which is God.

"Avicenna concedes that all entities but God are contingent -- i.e. their existence is not inevitable or indispensable.

"Since such contingent things require a cause for their existence, they cannot be explained except by reverting, in the chain of causes, to a necessary being -- one whose essence or meaning involves existence, a being whose existence must be presupposed in order to explain any other existence.

"God is the only being that exists by its own essence. It is essential that He exist, for without such a First Cause nothing that is could have begun to be. Since all matter is contingent -- i.e. its essence does not involve existence -- God cannot be material. For like raasons He must be simple and one.

"Since there is intelligence in created beings, there must be intelligence in their creator. The Supreme Intelligence sees all things -- past, present, and future -- not in time or sequence but at once. Their occurrence is the temporal result of His timeless thought.

"But God does not directly cause each action or event. Things develop by an internal teleology -- they have their purposes and destinies written in themselves.

"Therefore God is not responsible for evil. Evil is the price we pay for freedom of will. The evil of the part may be the good of the whole.

"The existence of the soul is attested by our most immediate internal perception. The soul is spiritual for the same reason -- we simply perceive it to be so.

"Our ideas are clearly distinct from our organs. The soul is the principle of self-movement and growth in a body. In this sense even the celestial spheres have souls.

"By itself a body can cause nothing. The cause of its every motion is its inherent soul. Each soul or intelligence possesses a measure of freedom and creative power akin to that of the First Cause, for it is an emanation of that Cause.

"After death the pure soul returns to union with the World Soul. In this union lies the blessedness of the good."

Anyone want to chew into this??!!

Robby

Fifi le Beau
February 12, 2005 - 08:59 pm
Durant writes.......

"Some orthodox theologians, bravely accepting the gage of logic, proposed to prove by reason the truth of the traditional faith.

Since all religion is mythological, it could never be proven by logic. Al Kindi and others simply ignored what the Koran said along with the hadith, and declared the Koran was not a timeless book, and that free will reigned, and predestination was dead. It was only a matter of time until a man like al-Ashari comes along and declares the Mutazilite doctrine (logic) dead.

Predestination according to al-Ashari is where God sits around all day determining who will live and who will die, and who will eat and who will starve, and who will be imprisoned and who will be free. Then Mohammed has girl friend trouble again and God has to write another verse to cover the problem. First he had to cover the un-adoption of Mohammed's son, so Mohammed could marry his son's wife, and god got all that worked out in the Koran while babies were starving.

al-Ashari says of God if.....He were to send them all to hell there would be no wrong.


"Not all the orthodox relished this submission of the faith to intellectual debate. Many proclaimed the formula Bila Kayf -- 'Believe without asking how.'

We are told that there are over a billion people who follow this axiom, 'believe without asking' which leads me to ask how there could ever be an intellectual debate with these people. It is not possible.

Fifi

Jan Sand
February 13, 2005 - 02:03 am
It is interesting that the subject of the immutability of the chain of cause and effect is still under discussion in scientific and philosophic circles. The concept of free will seems to be universally seductive even amongst the most advanced physicists and secular philosophers like Daniel Dennett inspite of the fact that, if examined closely, the capability confers no gifts for survival or ability to control the future. The physicists reach out to random occurences in sub-atomic phenomena for the lever which will permit absolutely free action but even the most brief contemplation of this would indicate that an individual would thereby consign himself to chaos rather than to a preconceived outcome of a preordained choice of action - not, it seems to me, a preferable outcome. The device of a multiverse is often offered as a possibility of a varied outcome since a five dimensional array of parallel universes might permit a consciousness to slither about amongst universes to gain a certain freedom of action but choice is usually made by a contemplation of outcomes and that contemplation is totally dependent upon past experiences and neuron predelictions from genetics and environment and a multiverse does not defeat that obligation.

Malryn (Mal)
February 13, 2005 - 02:52 am

"The capability of the concept (of free will) confers no gifts for survival or ability to control the future."

Is that so. Whoever said it did? I don't remember reading that in Daniel Dennett.

You know, JAN, it would be a lot easier to respond to you if you communicated in ordinary language instead of hiding behind the kind of double-speak that snows people like the "Academic Snow Job" Joan spoke of earlier. You don't use this method in your poetry; why do you think it's necessary to use it here?

I mean, like
"occurences in sub-atomic phenomena for the lever which will permit absolutely free action but even the most brief contemplation of this would indicate that an individual would thereby consign himself to chaos rather than to a preconceived outcome of a preordained choice of action - not, it seems to me, a preferable outcome. The device of a multiverse is often offered as a possibility of a varied outcome since a five dimensional array of parallel universes might permit a consciousness to slither about amongst universes to gain a certain freedom of action but choice is usually made by a contemplation of outcomes and that contemplation is totally dependent upon past experiences and neuron predelictions from genetics and environment and a multiverse does not defeat that obligation."
Like what?

Hey, man, we'd only like to know what the blank blank blank you're talking about, okay?

Mal

Jan Sand
February 13, 2005 - 03:12 am
I'm sorry if you find my language difficult. I apparently have a style normal to myself that is not clear, and for this I apologize. Dennett did not say that and I did not accredit that to Dennett. His book, "Freedom Evolves" is devoted to the concept that humanity does have free will. It is my contention that any decision we make must be based upon our understanding of the possible consequences of a decision and the decision we choose is rigidly dependent upon our capability to properly guess the consequences. This capability is determined by our previous experiences and our genetic configuration to prefigure events. An interesting article hints that time is actually preset so that prediction is possible. It is still rather iffy but you can see it at http://www.rednova.com/news/display/?id=126649#121

I do not consciously change my style of expression when writing poetry.

JoanK
February 13, 2005 - 03:21 am
JAN: what is that web site. Is it reputable? Have you seen anything about this anywhere else?

Jan Sand
February 13, 2005 - 03:30 am
I reached the web site through the science news site Slashdot Science (http://science.slashdot.org/) and I have not seen it before. The information there seems to be valid but the contention that it is possible to foretell the future absolutely seems to violate one of Einsteins observations that information cannot travel backwards in time. I'll wait and see on that one.

robert b. iadeluca
February 13, 2005 - 04:25 am
Jan:-If I may make another suggestion (no, this is not "pick on Jan" day!) -- please try to break up your postings into small paragraphs. It is so much easier to read and understand that way. I use that method when quoting Durant. Those who have the volume know that what you see here in three or four paragraphs may have been one large paragraph in Durant's volume.

Robby

Jan Sand
February 13, 2005 - 04:32 am
Sorry. I have been aware of the problem but let it slip this time. I reiterate that I do not intentionally use obscure language. The concepts I presented in the original post are common amongst SF fans and in some of Stephen Hawking's writings.

robert b. iadeluca
February 13, 2005 - 04:38 am
"Arabic philosophy in the East almost died with Avicenna.

"Soon after his culminating effort the orthodox emphasis of the Seljugs, the frightened fideism of the theologians, the victorious mysticism of al-Ghazali put a cloture on speculative thoughts. It is a pity that we know these three centuries (750-1050) of the Arabic efflorescence so imperfectly.

"Thousands of Arabic manuscripts in science, literature, and philosophy lie hidden in the libraries of the Moslem world.

"In Constantinople alone there are thirty mosque libraries whose wealth has been merely scratched. In Cairo, Damascus, Mosul, Baghdad, Delhi are great collections not even catalogued. An immense library in the Escorial near Madrid has hardly completed the listing of its Islamic manuscripts in science, literature, jurisprudence, and philosophy.

"What we know of Moslem thought in those centuries is a fragment of what survives. What survives is a fragment of what was produced. What appears in these pages is a morsel of a fraction of a fragment.

"When scholarship has surveyed more thoroughly this half-forgotten legacy, we shall probably rank the tenth century in Eastern Islam as one of the golden ages in the history of the mind."

Perhaps as Turkey moves toward the West, material in Istanbul (Constantinople) will come to light.

Robby

Jan Sand
February 13, 2005 - 05:07 am
Although it might be excused in the social context of centuries ago the massive ignorance in much of the general population of basic thought and knowledge today is depressing. The facility that knowedge has today to squirt into millions of homes throughout the entire Earth with the speed of light seems not to have been effective in giving the general population of the United States an awareness of the basic facts of what is occurring in the world.

robert b. iadeluca
February 13, 2005 - 05:41 am
As we continue our voyage with Durant, it may at times be helpful to re-examine the questions in the Heading above. Not only "What are our Origins?" and "Where are we Now?" but "Where are we Headed?"

Not only where are we headed in terms of East/West conflict as we are currently discussing, but in terms of Western scientific "accomplishments" as, for example, the creation of ARTIFICIAL GENES. Is this one of the things that frighten the Islamic world and cause their acts of what we call "terror" as they try to destroy us and our "civilized" ways?

Robby

Jan Sand
February 13, 2005 - 05:53 am
Even a scanty glance at the unease amongst not only people of faith but also scientists and environmentalists available through a Google survey reveals that the impact of the new knowledge of genetic engineering and manipulation is very disturbing to everybody. The possibilities for both beneficial and deleterious effects on society and the rest of life on Earth is immense.

robert b. iadeluca
February 13, 2005 - 05:55 am
A note to new readers here (and reminder to old-timers) that the GREEN quotes in the Heading keep us on track and show us the sub-topics we are currently reading. We are about to start the section on Mysticism and Heresy.

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
February 13, 2005 - 06:31 am
How about that for genetic engineering?

TERMINATOR GENE TECHNOLOGY


Éloïse

robert b. iadeluca
February 13, 2005 - 07:25 am
Although we spend a lot of time in this forum discussing governments, it appears, Eloise, that as we watch "where we are headed," that we need to be watchful of giant corporations (sometimes aided by governments) as well.

We are always interested in everyone's reaction to Voltaire's question in the Heading.

Robby

Jan Sand
February 13, 2005 - 08:28 am
When Gandhi was asked what he thought about Western civilization he answered "I think it would be a good idea". Things don't seem to have changed since he spoke.

Malryn (Mal)
February 13, 2005 - 08:57 am

I think we must be careful about websites that look professional and legitimate and aren't. There are many that present half-truths and facts about science that are more science fiction than not. I found many sites about various types of black boxes that have to do with forecasting the future, including one that stated that the black box material on the RedNova site is a hoax.

There is a hue and cry on the internet and the World Wide Web right now about genetic research and technology. Many of the websites I accessed contain false information. If you want accurate information, go to a reliable source that will, through links, direct you to other reliable sources. This applies to Consumer Advocacy sites, too.

I know someone whose medical technology business puts him close to such things as biogenetic research. For my own satisfaction, I'm going to contact him at his office tomorrow and ask some questions about Terminator Technology and other phases of genetic engineering and bioethics.


Food and Agriculture Organization of the UN

Monsanto

The BioBelt

Jan Sand
February 13, 2005 - 09:24 am
Since I relayed the information about the RedNova Site (which looks legitimate to me) I would appreciate getting the site that described the item as a hoax. I tried finding it on Google but couldn't locate it.

robert b. iadeluca
February 13, 2005 - 09:43 am
Thank you, Mal, for saying what I say regularly here:-"Consider the sources of your links." Links are what help this forum to be so knowledgeable but it does not remove from us the need to do our own thinking.

Robby

Bubble
February 13, 2005 - 10:25 am
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=583&e=1&u=/nm/20050213/od_nm/saudi_valentines_dc

Valentine in RIYADH

robert b. iadeluca
February 13, 2005 - 10:38 am
Well, that just adds a bit more to the Islam story, doesn't it, Bubble?

Robby

Bubble
February 13, 2005 - 11:10 am
Happy Valentine?

It made me ponder because in Israel too, the rabbinate does not see favorably the celebration of those "pagan dates".

A few years ago, it was forbidden to call 31st december parties "Sylvester parties" and now they try to name Valentine Day by the "Family Day" vocable. It does not succeed too well.

Have a cheerful celebration, folks!

Scrawler
February 13, 2005 - 02:05 pm
If I'm not mistaken the founding fathers were mostly white, male, Protestants with many of them being Freemasons - a secret society having as its principles "brotherliness, charity, and mutual aid." Didn't our original documents such as the Federal Papers and the Declaration of Independence echo with these same principles.

robert b. iadeluca
February 13, 2005 - 02:49 pm
Mysticism and Heresy

robert b. iadeluca
February 13, 2005 - 03:07 pm
"At their peak philosophy and religion meet in the sense and contemplation of universal unity.

"The soul untouched by logic, too weak of wing for the metaphysical flight from the many to the one, from incident to law, might reach that vision through a mystic absorption of the separate self in the soul of the world.

"And where science and philosophy failed, where the brief finite reason of man faltered and turned blind in the presence of infinity, faith might mount to the feet of God by ascetic discipline, unselfish devotion, the unconditional surrender of the part to the whole.

"Moslem mysticism had many roots:-the asceticism of the Hindu fakirs, the Gnosticism of Egypt and Syria, the Neoplatonist speculations of the later Greeks, and the omnipresent example of ascetic Christian monks.

"As in Christendom, so in Islam a pious minority protested against any accommodation of religion to the interests and practices opf the economic world. They denounced the luxury of caliphs, viziers, and merchants, and proposed to return to the simplicity of Abu Bekr and Omar I.

"They resented any intermediary between themselves and the deity. Even the rigid ritual of the mosque seemed to them an obstacle to that mystic state in which the soul, purified of all earthly concerns, rose not only to the Beatific Vision but to unity with God.

"The movement flourished most in Persia, perhaps through proximity to India, through Christian influence at Jund-i-Shapur, and through Neoplatonist traditions established by the Greek philophers who fled from Athens to Persia in 529.

"Most mystics called themslelves Sufis, from the simple robe of wool (suf) that they wore. But within that term were embraced sincere enthusiasts, exalted poets, pantheists, ascetics, charlatans, and men with many wives. Their doctrine varied from time to time, and from street to street.

"Said Averroes:-'The Sufis maintain that the knowledge of God is found in our own hearts, after our detachment from all physical desires, and the concentration of the mind upon the desired object.'

"But many Sufis tried to reach God through external objects, too. Whatever we see of perfection or loveliness in the world is due to the presence or operation of divinity in them. In reality, the mystic held, these individual things exist only by the divine power in them. Their sole reality is this underlying divinity.

"Therefore God is all. Not only is there no god but Allah, ther is no being but God. Consequently each soul is god, and the full-bloodd mystic shamelessly avers that 'God and I are one.' Hallaj was arrested for exaggeration, scourged with a thousand stripes, and burned to death (922).

"His followers claimed to have seen and talked with him after this interruption, and many Sufis made him their favorite saint."

Any comments?

Robby

JoanK
February 13, 2005 - 04:32 pm
Interesting that there seems to be a mystic element in all religions. Many have commented on the similarities of mystic experience among people widely separated in time, space, and belief. That these mystic experiences exist seems undeniable. What to make of them is the question.

Persian
February 13, 2005 - 08:16 pm
Perhaps a bit off-topic, but this link to an article entitled "Do You Know Your Way Around the World?" is an excellent example of why our discussion is not only enjoyable, but also important in strengthing (and expanding) our view of the world.

http://www.charlotte.com/mld/observer/news/editorial/10888877.htm

robert b. iadeluca
February 13, 2005 - 08:17 pm
A couple of decades ago, as part of my spiritual quest at that time, I attended a few meetings of the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY.

Robby

winsum
February 13, 2005 - 09:44 pm
relevant to voltaire's comment, discovering the patterns of civilization is an article I just received and re, long thing, about digital evolution being used to discover how bacteria evolve in which it is grossly speeded up an changes into a self protecting, non human entity. Perhaps we'll be discovering a new kind of civilization relative to the opportunities in Lansing Mich. study brought to the development of new organisms. It's interesting to note that this would change our space explorations too. we'd be looking for creatures like us and ignoring a species and civilization which may be digitally based and need other requirements to evolve.

there are civilizations and civilizations. the one we're discussing here, has always been faith based, which is why I dropped out for a while, it doen't make sense to me. . . but there are other possibilities. . . . . Claire

Jan Sand
February 13, 2005 - 10:10 pm
Robby, I couldn't agree with you more that a source must be valid before accepting a claim. I would rather not belabor the point but I am left in suspension as to the validity that the black box is a hoax. Mal made the claim and I provided an adequate interim for her to provide a source to her invalidation of the veracity of the item. No site has thus far been indicated and so I cannot be sure either way. I agree that it seems very unlikely that the future is available in the manner indicated but I would very much appreciate being relieved of my uncertainty. I really am not comfortable left in this particular intellectual limbo.

robert b. iadeluca
February 14, 2005 - 03:17 am
I'm glad to see you back, Claire, but hope that you will continue. Yes, it is true that many (if not most) of the civilizations we discuss are faith based but that's the nature of the world as it is. We discuss whatever civilizations come into being. That is the reason for the questions in the Heading above -- "Where are we Now? Where are we headed?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 14, 2005 - 04:18 am
"The Sufi, like the Hindu, believed in a course of discipline as necessary to the mystic revelation of God:-purifying exercises of devotion, meditation, and prayer -- the full obedience of the novice to a Sufi master or teacher -- and the complete abandonment of any personal desire, even the desire for salvation or the mystical union.

"The perfect Sufi loves God for His own sake, not for any reward. Said Abu'l-Qasim:-'The Giver is better for you than the gift.'

"Usually, however, the Sufi valued his discipline as a means of reaching a true knowledge of things, sometimes as a curriculum leading to a degree of miraculous power over nature, but almost always as a road to union with God. He who had completely forgotten his individual self in such union was called al-insanu-l-Kamil -- the Perfect Man.

"Such a man, the Sufis believed, was above all laws, even above the obligation to pilgrimage. Said a Sufi verse:-'All eyes toward the Kaaba turn, but ours to the Beloved's face.'

"Until the middle of the eleventh century the Sufis continued to live in the world, sometimes with their families and their children. Even the Sufis attached small moral worth to celibacy. Such Sufis were distinguished only by their simplicity of life, their piety and quietism, very much like the early Quakers. Occasionally they gathered around some holy teacher or exemplar, or met in groups for prayer and mutual stimulation to devotion.

"Already in the tenth century those strange dervish dances were taking form which were to play so prominent a part in later Sufism. A few became recluses and tormented themselves, but asceticism was in this period discountenanced and rare. Saints, unknown to early Islam, became numerous in Sufism."

Any comments about this sect?

Robby

Bubble
February 14, 2005 - 04:36 am
http://www.whirlingdervishes.org/

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/islam/1902dervishes.html

http://www.mevlana.net/

Malryn (Mal)
February 14, 2005 - 05:50 am
Contrary to popular opinion, I do not spend all of my time in SeniorNet. Most of my time at the computer is spent offline or doing research on the web, doing publishing work, editing, and uploading files to the World Wide Web, and writing. If I'm not in the Story of Civilization discussion to see a question directed to me, how can I answer it?

What I said in my post about "black boxes" was: "I found many sites about various types of black boxes that have to do with forecasting the future, including one that stated that the black box material on the RedNova site is a hoax."

I did not make any claims one way or the other, or express an opinion about the article on the RedNova site that JAN posted.

I found the article in which the hoax statement was made through a circuitous method of clicking and following many links in and to many different places. What I was looking for was corroboration of what had been said in the RedNova site. I didn't find any, and I found only one that even mentioned the RedNova article, the one I mentioned before.

I didn't bookmark the site, and though I've tried to retrace the steps of the search I made other day, I can't find the site and am unable to post the URL. You can be sure that if I do, I'll post a link to it here.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
February 14, 2005 - 06:00 am
Mal:-We all have bad days, don't we?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
February 14, 2005 - 06:02 am

Sure, ROBBY, but for me this isn't one!

Mal

Jan Sand
February 14, 2005 - 07:06 am
Mal I am sure we are all tired of this topic and I appreciate the frank reply you have given me. It is just that I was just as anxious as you to confirm or deny what seemed to be a preposterous claim to somehow see the future. Unfortunately, since the source of the denial is, at the moment, as obscure as the claim itself, I am left hanging and I will file it amongst the flying saucer and vampire stories as curious and amusing and improbable.

Jan Sand
February 14, 2005 - 07:26 am
Anyone who would pursue this topic closer to its source might try the Princeton University site http://noosphere.princeton.edu/

Jan Sand
February 14, 2005 - 08:54 am
Mal, Anything you want to say I am willing to listen.

Fifi le Beau
February 14, 2005 - 01:20 pm
Jan, did you read the link you provided 'noosphere.princeton'? There is a critical look at their work in the article. If you click on your link and go to the paragraph that begins, 'James Spottiswoode' and near the end of that paragraph click on the word 'critique' which is a link to an article critical of the work.

Fifi

Jan Sand
February 14, 2005 - 01:52 pm
Fifi There is a large quantity of highly technical material available at the site and I a took a quick look through a good deal of it but could not locate the material you indicated. Insofar as I could see, no definite final conclusion has been made from the material gathered so far. If you could clue me in as to which of the many links offered on the site contains the material you pointed out I will look at it.

Malryn (Mal)
February 14, 2005 - 03:12 pm

The Spottiswoode Critique Fifi mentioned

Malryn (Mal)
February 14, 2005 - 03:17 pm

The Sufi dervishes remind me of the Shakers (The United Society of Believers.) Like the Sufis, the Shakers believed in simplicity of life and piety. They were strenuously disciplined to the point of celibacy, dedicated to work, and just incidentally made some of the most beautiful, simple furniture and cabinetry work I have ever seen.

As contrast to this, in their services what was at first spontaneous, ecstatic dancing (shaking) was started. This later became quite ritualized.

I have never seen a Shaker service and know no one who ever saw one. I believe the last Shaker died not too many years ago.

Mal

Jan Sand
February 14, 2005 - 03:44 pm
Mal, thanks for the reference. I have read the comment and insofar as my meagre technical capability can follow such an analysis have tried to comprehend the logic. According to the criticism the effect of the September 11 event was indetectable in the data accumulated by the devices. Which can mean one of several things. Either the devices do not respond to significant events as proposed or the event was not significant insofar as the devices were concerned or the total project is badly conceived or the proponents of the project have been fiddling their data to convince a gullible audience.

Since the critic confined himself to one event which he characterized as indubitably significant perhaps a wider analysis is necessary. I would rather not argue as to the magnitude of the significance of the event.

And I have no conclusion as to the worth of the project but I am extremely skeptical.

Malryn (Mal)
February 14, 2005 - 04:41 pm

For the life of me, I can't see what any of this has to do with SUFISM

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
February 14, 2005 - 05:07 pm
"There being no church to canonize such heroes of ecstasy, they received the informal canonization of popular acclaim. By the twelfth century the Koranic discouragement of the worship of saints as a form of idolatry had been overwhelmed by the natural sentiments of the people.

"An early saint was Ibrahim ibn Adham, the Abou ben Adhem of Leigh Hunt. Popular imagination attributed miraculous powers to such saints. They knew the secrets of clairvoyance, thought reading, and telepathy. They could swallow fire or glass unhurt, pass through fire unburnt. walk upon water, fly through the air, and transport themselves over great distances in a moment's time. Abu Said reports feats of mind reading as startling as any in current mythography.

"Day by day the religion that some philosophers supposed to be the product of priests is formed and re-formed by the needs, sentiment, and imagination of the people. The monotheism of the prophets becomes the polytheism of the populace."

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
February 14, 2005 - 08:44 pm



Abou Ben Adhem
by James Henry Leigh Hunt


Abou Ben Adhem (may his tribe increase!)
Awoke one night from a deep dream of peace,
And saw, within the moonlight in his room,
Making it rich, and like a lily in bloom,
An angel writing in a book of gold: -
Exceeding peace had made Ben Adhem bold,
And to the Presence in the room he said
"What writest thou?" -The vision raised its head,
And with a look made of all sweet accord,
Answered "The names of those who love the Lord."
"And is mine one?" said Abou. "Nay, not so,"
Replied the angel. Abou spoke more low,
But cheerly still, and said "I pray thee, then,
Write me as one that loves his fellow men."


The angel wrote, and vanished. The next night
It came again with a great wakening light,
And showed the names whom love of God had blessed,
And lo! Ben Adhem's name led all the rest.

winsum
February 14, 2005 - 09:46 pm
Joan I just read that article

Global Consciousness Project

which offers many references th first is Princeton where the project took place.

As to a universal consciousness, it's not a new theory Jung thought there wwaas illustrate by the universality of certain symbols in art. I find that I can control matter with my mind under certain circumstancing. It began with "dousing" using two straighted out metal coat hangers with a ben at one end so as to balance then imn my hands. I could move them by looking at the tips and pushing with my solar plexes. In fact I could stand behind someone else and move them. It took a great gunting kind of effort. It may have been that I transmitted the impulse throught the person standing in front of me, even stronger if I placed my hands on her shouldeers.

It's kinesthitic energy transmitted through the electromagnetic system of the person and I found it to be consistent over the yer in which I played with it. Children were best at it . . . less inhibited.

To sum up an old teacher once said to me "We are all very highly endowed" and I do believe this. I think Shakespear said something of the sort with "there are more thingg on heaven and earth etcthan ...in our philosphy. . . .." can't remember it all but I'm sure some of yo can

As for the black box does it have an electrically sensative mechanixm? and how is it laced geophysically or in global positioning relative to the happenings. . time here on earth still confuses me. . . as in the international date line and GmT time. It is fun to play with all of this though. Open your minds to the many posabilities. which surround up and forgive the typos and spellings. I like to leave such things to my editor they get in the way of my mind.

Malryn (Mal)
February 14, 2005 - 10:02 pm

With me it's not a case of opening or closing my mind to such possibilities, it's wanting to learn something about Islam by reading and discussing Will and Ariel Durant's book, The Age of Faith.

That's why we're here.

Mal

Jan Sand
February 14, 2005 - 10:03 pm
Isaac Asimov once commented on that poem. He speculated that Abou Ben Adhem's name led all the rest because the list was alphabetic.

Claire

If Shakespeare said that he must have been drunk at the time.

Fifi le Beau
February 14, 2005 - 11:03 pm
The Sufi like the Hindu and others want union with God say the texts. They seem to think that if they can become as one with god, they will learn all the secrets and know all the answers. Then of course, they would be god themselves once all is revealed. Their followers give them the status of gods and the slippery slope is ripe for the 'true' believers to enter with the axe.

Then there is Robby's foray into the mystical experience in a religious context. An encounter with 'ultimate divine reality', interpreted as direct experience of the divine. What is 'ultimate divine reality? It's whatever anyone believes it is.

Durant has had little to say about the role of drugs in the religious experience of the middle east. I just read an article about the drug problem Iran is having at present with heroin. Opium has always been available in that area as has hashish. These are both mind altering drugs, and easily obtained as Durant wrote in medicine of this era.

If they can't reach niverna with a mystical experience, they look for 'ecstasy' in other ways. There is an interesting law suit in the courts now in the U.S. brought by Jeffrey Bronfman (whiskey man in Yiddish). The supreme court has taken it up (money buys access everywhere).

Bronfman found a religious group in Brazil who had founded an organization called, "Central Beneficial Spirit United from the Plants." One drink of the tea served at the meeting and he became a convert. According to the church doctrine, members can fully perceive God only by drinking the tea called, Hoasca. Hoasca is brewed from two plants that grow in the Amazon River Basin, and it contains DMT, a hallucinogen that the American government considers a controlled substance.

Bronfman learned Portuguese and trained to become a 'mestre', which is the title given to the clergy. He began to preside over the meetings in his home in the U.S. until they were raided in 1999 and thirty gallons of hoasca was seized. No one was arrested, but the group had to stop using the tea. Bronfman sued in federal court charging the government with violating their right to freedom of religion, and his opportunity to sit down and have a chat with god.

One witness who tried the tea said it was like 'being fired out of the nozzle of an atomic cannon'. But mankind soldiers on looking for niverna, ecstasy, divine reality, mystical experience, becoming one with god, and the secrets of the universe through drugs, meditation, hypnotic trance, delusion and all the other devices invented by man to divorce himself from the world and reality.

Like Robby, I have read and studied all the many forms religion and mysticism takes, and am certainly no expert in any of these fields, so what I offer is opinion only. I spent one summer with my three small children in the mountains miles from the nearest neighbor (my husband was in France) reading Josephus and three books on Hinduism and mysticism. By the end of my stay, if I had been Hindu, I would have wanted to be hauled down to the river Ganges and have my skull split open to release my spirit forever.

The idea of niverna probably came from someone high on hashish, opium or the other plants and herbs available. It is evident that no one ever found the secrets of the gods or ever even got close enough to describe one unless under the influence, and then it was all gobblygook and didn't make sense to anyone including them.

I went to see my mother this afternoon. She is in her nineties and she is on the go so much, that I have to call ahead to make sure she is home before I leave. She is an extrovert who loves life and has a full calendar. Most of the friends her age are dead, so she makes younger ones. She is a realist who makes her own 'reality' one of happiness, laughter, work, and play. It is firmly grounded in time and place with no room for Fakirs and charlatans.

Fifi

Jan Sand
February 15, 2005 - 12:12 am
Most of humanity is so stuffed with hubris that at the slightest impetus they will tell you what God wants and how to satisfy Him. They have not the slightest comprehension of how insignificant humanity and Earth and the Solar System is in the immensity of the universe.

In one of Robert Heinlein's stories a group of humans on an interstellar exploration encounters a civilization of very bright friendly aliens whose planet is dotted with temples and one of the humans is invited to meet their god in one of the temples. The humans assumed that the religion of the aliens was much like Earth religions and the god was merely an abstraction to be worshipped. The human invited was horrified to discover in the event that the "god" was an actual living being possessed of such immense intellect and power that his sanity succumbed to the encounter. Heinlein was not a great writer but he had the unique ability to visualize extraordinary concepts and present them well. I have very strong doubts as to the existence of God but if such a being exists I am reasonably sure it would be as frightening and incomprehensible as Heinlein depicted.

robert b. iadeluca
February 15, 2005 - 04:46 am
Thank you, Fifi, for a thought-provoking and well-presented posting. I like your phrase that "mankind soldiers on while divorcing himself from reality." Congratulations to your wonderful mother who is "firmly grounded in time and place." I suppose, however, that the philosophers would ask "what is reality?"

Let us continue on following Durant and sticking as closely as possible to the topics he hands to us.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 15, 2005 - 05:00 am
"Orthodox Islam accepted Sufism within the Moslem fold and gave it considerable latitude of expression and belief. But this shrewd policy was refused to heresies that concealed revolutionary politics or preached an anarchism of morality and law.

"Of many half-religious half-political revolts the most effective was that of the 'Ismaila.' In Shia doctrine, it will be recalled, each generation of Ali's descendants, to the twelfth, was headed by a divine incarnation or Imam, and each Imam named his successor. The sixth, Jafar al-Sadiq, appointed his eldest son Ismail to succeed him.

"Ismail, it is alleged, indulged in a wine. Jafar rescinded his nomination, and chose another son, Musa, as seventh Imam (c.760). Some Shi'ites held the appointment of Ismail, to be irrevocable, and honored him or his son Muhammad as seventh and last Imam.

"For a century these 'Ismailites' remained a negligible sect. Then Abdallah ibn Qaddah made himself their leader and sent missionaries to preach the doctrine of the 'Seveners' throughout Islam. Before initiation into the sect the convert took an oath of secrecy, and pledged absolute obedience to the Dai-d-Duat, or Grand Master of the order.

"The teaching was divided into exoteric and esoteric:-the convert was told that after passing through nine stages of initiation all veils would be removed, the Talim or Secret Doctrine (that God is All) would be revealed to him, and he would then be above every creed and every law. In the eighth degree of initiation the convert was taught that nothing can be known of the Supreme Being, and no worship can be rendered Him.

"Many survivors of old communistic movements were drawn to the Ismaila by the expectation that a Mahdi or Redeemer would come who would establish a regime of equality, justice, and brotherly love on the earth.

"This remarkable confraternity became in time a power in Islam. It won North Africa and Egypt and founded the Fatimid dynasty. Late in the ninth century it gave birth to a movement that almost brought an end to the Abbasid caliphate."

As Durant discusses the Shia belief, let us keep in mind that the Shi'ites just won in Iraq.

Robby

Sunknow
February 15, 2005 - 03:37 pm
"...the convert was told that after passing through nine stages of initiation all veils would be removed, the Talim or Secret Doctrine (that God is All) would be revealed to him, and he would then be above every creed and every law. In the eighth degree of initiation the convert was taught that nothing can be known of the Supreme Being, and no worship can be rendered Him."

Did I misunderstand this? It seems to me to be the worst sort of deception. A slap in the face of the faithful. Why bother with the "ninth" stage if there is no hope and nothing left to be revealed?

Another matter: I don't pretend to be one of the intellects here. But I would like to say that I am always embarrassed if I post something and discover misspelled words later. Yes, it happens to the best of us. But eighteen misspelled words in one post is just unforgivable when there are FREE spell checks available online (abc ieSpell can be downloaded free and works in our message boxes. I prefer that to SNet's Spell Check). Surely anyone that wants to be taken seriously would have at least that much respect for others. I will have no further comment on the matter. It is not my intention to offend, but assist.

Sun

robert b. iadeluca
February 15, 2005 - 04:37 pm
Sun:-Sometimes these "mispellings" are typos. Myself, for example, I type fast and often don't go back to make corrections.

Robby

Sunknow
February 15, 2005 - 05:07 pm
Robby - You are a real Gentleman. I also type much too fast, and think even faster, causing my fingers to stumble all over themselves......

And every once in a while, I speak out when words would best be left unspoken. Sorry about that. Unfortunately, a spell check does not solve that problem.

Note: I was not referring to you. If I had to post as many words on line as you do (or as Mal does, for that matter), I would do well to spell my own name.

Nus

robert b. iadeluca
February 15, 2005 - 05:56 pm
Very subtle, Nus!

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 15, 2005 - 05:57 pm
Literature

robert b. iadeluca
February 15, 2005 - 06:02 pm
"In Islam life and religion had drama, but literature had none. It is a form apparently alien to the Semitic mind. And as in other medieval literatures, there was here no novel.

"Most writing was heard rather than silently read. Those who cared for fiction could not rise to the concentration necessary for a complex and continued narrative. Short stories were as old as Islam or Adam. The simpler Moslems listened to them with the ardor and appetite of children, but the scholars never counted them as literature.

"The most popular of these stories wre the Fables of Bidpai and the Thousand Nights and a Night. The Fables were brought to Persia from India in the sixth century, were translated into Pahlavi, and thence, in the eighth century into Arabic.

"The Sanskrit original was lost, the Arabic version survived, and was rendered into forty languages."

Bubble, is literature alien to the semitic mind?

Robby

Jan Sand
February 15, 2005 - 06:56 pm
There is something uncomfortable in the concept of "the semitic mind". Is that a racial or a cultural slur? Do I detect a swastika in there somewhere?

3kings
February 15, 2005 - 08:04 pm
No, JAN. I am certain there is nothing antisemitic in the remark.Please do not look for slights from Robby. He has made a lifetime practice of avoiding such.... Trevor

winsum
February 15, 2005 - 08:54 pm
Sun as to typos ? there are just to many to go back and try to fix them, but the message is clear enough if you bother to use your imagination. It's not meant as disrespect but you can take it however you wish.

I type fast, think fast . . . etc. etc.

Now about the thrust of this discussion. As long as it is faith based I have nothing to contribute or even learn since I have none. . . faith, that is.

I liked the link to THE ROOTS OF AMERICAN LAW. . . that kind of thing makes the story of civilization something to which I can relate. more please. . . . . Claire

moxiect
February 15, 2005 - 09:28 pm


Winsum: The address below should take you to Roots of American Law.

http://members.tripod.com/~candst/histlaw.htm

Malryn (Mal)
February 15, 2005 - 09:35 pm

CLAIRE, we're reading and discussing a book called The Age of Faith. After we explore the faith of Islam and other factors, we will be talking about the Jewish Faith. Volume V is called The Renaissance. There may be things in it which you might like better than what's in this book, though I have a feeling there'll be in it even more discussion about various religions and the repercussions when faiths conflict.

Where is JUSTIN, I wonder?

Mal

Jan Sand
February 15, 2005 - 11:31 pm
Justin's last post dealt with the installation of a new computer. I assume he is getting it into working order.

Jan Sand
February 15, 2005 - 11:31 pm
Whether it was intentional or not, the use of the phrase implies there is a different kind of mind in semitic peoples. It is that type of assumption that forms the basis of various ethnic mistreatments and it is not something that should be expressed without careful indications that there is no basic difference between the fundamental capabilities of any general group of human beings although there are obvious individual differences. I am reasonably confident that Robby had no denegrating intentions but it is an area which requires a cautious tread in a forest of dangerous assumptions.

Sunknow
February 16, 2005 - 12:42 am
Jan - Your quarrel must be with Durant. You will find on page 162, after the subtitle: VI LITERATURE, the words: "....alien to the Semitic mind" at the end of the first sentence.

Surely Durant gave a great deal of thought to the fundamental capabilities and beliefs of many groups and individual differences down through history. Otherwise, what is he writing about? No one would expect him to have devoutly believed everything he wrote about. He presents it to us....we can read it, discuss it, and decide for ourselves what we believe.

I assure you that I have not become a Muslim, and I'd be more than surprised if you became a Christian in the reading. Hopefully, we just learn something in the process.

Sun

Bubble
February 16, 2005 - 12:58 am
Semitic mind, Robby? Mmmm... I never thought about that? It might have been true long ago when the media had not the reach it has today. Now the whole world is a melting pot.

But yes, I think that in the East we are more prone to philosophical discussions than exchanging cheap Harlequin tales. Maybe I am wrong. In religious circle, reading is mainly from religious books or edifying biographies. I am talking about Israel as well as the background I had with RC until I was over 20 of age. Now there start to be some fine local novelists which are also appreciated abroad, when they are translated.

Iye two rite laik that somtimes wen I hury so match!
Bubbly

Jan Sand
February 16, 2005 - 01:08 am
I am not quarrelling with anybody. I have great respect for Durant and with this discussion but some words have sharp edges and must be handled respectfully. To present the conception of a particular type of mind as characteristic of a culture without delineating precisely what that means leaves a great deal of ambiguous connotation. Is this mind a result of cultural context or is it assumed to be a fabrication of genetic potential or what?

The flow of concepts throughout various civilizations is very pertinent to this discussion and the impetus of the forces concerned is assumed, I guess, to be derived out of tradition and history, not genetics. This point should be maintained with steady clarity. Insofar as a mind is shaped by culture I can accept that differences are observed but there is something intrinsically insidious in defining a mind's potential by its culture.

The breakout of scientific human thought from the narrow religious confines of the Middle Ages was made by minds trained in those religious doctrines. Doubtlessly it took much struggle and some real suffering but it was accomplished and the benefits surround us today.

robert b. iadeluca
February 16, 2005 - 04:05 am
Thank you, Trevor, for your kind compliment and for the objective postings by each of you. As you say, Jan, some statements have "sharp edges" and that of course is due to our own personal heritage and background. I am partly of Italian heritage and read what Durant said about Roman traits. I may very well have some of them or may not.

Those of us who have been with SofC since the first volume, "Our Oriental Heritage," became used to the term semitic. If I understand correctly what we learned, it applies both to the Jewish and Arab peoples (perhaps others). I have learned that they are "cousins" so to speak but I am open to correction.

If we avoid these sharp edges, we will be avoiding much of what has happened and is happening in the world. Diplomacy is the watch word.

A reminder of a practice I have followed since we began. If the words are in italics and in quotes, they are the words of Durant. Otherwise they are mine -- sometimes in red sometimes not.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 16, 2005 - 04:18 am
"Literary prose, in Islam, is a form of poetry. The Arabic temperament was inclined to strong feeling. Persian manners made for ornate speech.

"The Arabian language, then common to both peoples, invited rhyme by the similarity of its inflectional endings. So literary prose usually rhymed. Preachers and orators and storytellers used rhymed prose. It was in this medium that Badi al-Hamadhani (d.1008) wrote his famous Maqamat (Assemblies) -- tales told to various gatherings about a wandering rapscallion with less morals than wit.

"The peoples of the Near East were ear-minded, as were all men before printing. To most Moslems literature was a recited poem or narrative. Poems were written to be read aloud, or sung. Everyone in Islam, from peasant to caliph, heard them gladly.

"Nearly everyone, as in samurai Japan, composed verses. In the educated classes it was a popular game for one person to finish in rhyme a couplet or stanza begun by another, or to compete in forming extempore lyrics or poetic epigrams.

"Poets rivaled one another in fashioning complex patterns of meter and rhyme. Many rhymed the middle as well as the end of a line.

"A riot of rhyme scurried through Arab verse and influenced the rise of rhyme in European poetry."

I can remember doing such things when I was younger. Our Western civilization seems to have lost its "ear."

Robby

Jan Sand
February 16, 2005 - 05:02 am
Poetry in modern life when set to music in pop songs almost always uses rhyme. S M Ulam, one of the mathematicians who worked out at Los Alamos in the Manhattan project, once conjectured that rhyme might probably be useful in poetry by forcing language to conform to an order extraneous to the sense of the poetry to be conveyed and thereby introduce an element of chance novelty and originality to the thought itself. I have found that the use of rhyme creates a rhythmic inter-cross reference to poems which reverberates throughout the thoughts beyond being intrinsically entertaining.

Many poets disdain rhyme as a distraction and obvious simple rhyme schemes can make a poem seem naive.

The poems of Ogden Nash frequently indulge in such outrageous rhymes and wild violations of poetic conformity that they become hilarious satires of poetry itself.

Scrawler
February 16, 2005 - 01:15 pm
As I was growing up in a Greek household it wasn't enough just to read something. It had to be discussed with a capitol "D" and digested before the subject was finished. I think that the Greeks are similar to Arabs in many ways and this may be one of them. Ours was an oral culture, although we were encouraged especially as we grew older, to read everything there was available to read; it was the oral discussion that generated individual thinking.

Persian
February 16, 2005 - 01:25 pm
SCRAWLER - your comments about an oral culture certainly ring true for Persians and, perhaps surprisingly to readers here, within Arab culture as well. In the latter case, however, the finer points of discussion may not be noticeable (or understood) to someone from the West. From my own experience, Arabs often discuss a topic - whether literature, politics, family or science - to the nth degree.

I was surprised to read Durant's comments about "the semitic mind." When I think of the wonderful poetry and the many examples of literature - and as BUBBLE pointed out, the prodigious reading and discussion - I wonder what he had in mind.

Fifi le Beau
February 16, 2005 - 05:37 pm
Durant was writing about the peoples of the middle east in or around the eighth and ninth centuries. They had no literature, so the question became why?

Durant had this to say about the stories they had translated which originated in India.

"The most popular of these stories were the Fables of Bidpai and the Thousand Nights and a Night. The Fables were brought to Persia from India in the sixth century, were translated into Pahlavi, and thence, in the eighth century into Arabic.

"The Sanskrit original was lost, the Arabic version survived, and was rendered into forty languages."


So copying seemed to be their forte, along with plagiarism in that era.

The Semites certainly knew how to weave a tale, they made up three religions from this small area, namely Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. They finally got all that written down in a book for each one, though much of it was rehashed myth handed down orally from many cultures.

These creation myths taking the form of a religion, actually suffocated the creative writing process. Even in our time, Islam threatens those who write any criticism of it in the pursuit of literature.

Fifi

Justin
February 16, 2005 - 05:53 pm
Christianity repeated the practice of smothering literature and unless I am mistaken the Vatican continues to maintain an index of unapproved books.It is a wonder to me that we have come as far as we have in literature for book burning, library censoring, and revisionist practices are still with us.

robert b. iadeluca
February 16, 2005 - 06:19 pm
"Probably no civilization or period -- not even China in the days of Li Po and Tu Fu, nor Weimar when it had 'a hundred citizens and ten thousand poets' -- ever equaled Abbasid Islam in the number and prosperity of its bards.

"Abul-Faraj of Isfahan (897-967), toward the end of this age, collected and recorded Arabic poetry in his Kitah al-Aghani (Book of Songs). Its twenty volumes suggest the wealth and variety of Arabic verse.

"Poets served as propagandists, and were feared as deadly satirists. Rich men bought praise by the meter. Caliphs gave high place and fat sums to poets who turned for them a pleasant stanza, or celebrated the glory of their deeds or their tribe.

"The Caliph Hisham, wishing to recall a poem, sent for the poet Hammad, who luckily remembered it all. Hisham rewarded him with two slave girls and 50,000 dinars ($237,500). No poet will believe the tale.

"Arabic poetry, which once had sung to Bedouins, now addressed itself to courts and palaces. Much of it became artificial, formal, delicately trivial, politely insincere. A battle of ancients and moderns ensued in which the critics complained that there were great poets only before Mohammed.

"Love and war outbid religion as poetic themes. The poetry of the Arabs (this would not be true of the Persians) was seldom mystical. It preferred songs of battle, passion, or sentiment. As the century of conquest closed, Eve overcame both Mars and Allah as the inspiration of Arab verse.

"The poets of Islam thrilled with autointoxication in describing the charms of woman -- her fragrant hair, jewel eyes, berry lips, and silver limbs. In the deserts and holy cities of Arabia the troubadour motifs took form. Poets and philosophers spoke of adah as, in one phase, the ethic and etiquette of love.

"This tradition would pass through Egypt and Africa to Sicily and Spain, and thence to Italy and Provence. Hearts would break in rhyme and rhythm and many tongues."

Happy Valentine's Day, everyone!

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 16, 2005 - 06:45 pm
Any time now we will move onto the next thousand postings -- for the third time! And we have only just begun the volume!

Be sure to Subscribe.

Robby

winsum
February 16, 2005 - 07:47 pm
is a way to study civilization too. I enjoyed these posts. And Mal, as is noted in the heading

In this Discussion Group we are not examining Durant. We are examining Civilization but in the process constantly referring to Durant's appraisals.



Durants writings in themselves are limited because after all this is a huge subject. I like to see where else it leads with a group of enlightened readers and thinkers and experiencers from different cultures. . . . By the Way I just found I had a book called THE PERSIAN LETTERS which was written in the seventeen hundreds and was very popular in France where it was written. It was more fiction than fact, but the "orient" was very IN AT THAT TIME. COINCIDENCE? I might have not noticed if it weren't for my visits to this site. Hey Justin, nice to see you back. . . . . Claire

Marjorie
February 16, 2005 - 09:23 pm
This discussion has filled up and is now Read Only. In just a few minutes I will supply the link to your new discussion.