Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant ~ Volume IV, Part 2 ~ Nonfiction
Theron Boyd
October 10, 2004 - 08:49 pm


What are our origins? Where are we now? Where are we headed?

Share your thoughts with us!





  
"I want to know what were the steps by which man passed from barbarism to civilization." (Voltaire)





Volume Four (The Age of Faith)

"Four elements constitute Civilization -- economic provision, political organization, moral traditions, and the pursuit of knowledge and the arts. "

"I shall proceed as rapidly as time and circumstances will permit, hoping that a few of my contemporaries will care to grow old with me while learning. "

"These volumes may help some of our children to understand and enjoy the infinite riches of their inheritance."

"Civilization begins where chaos and insecurity ends." "








THE KORAN







Form

Creed

Ethics

Religion and the State





In this Discussion Group we are not examining Durant. We are examining Civilization but in the process constantly referring to Durant's appraisals.

This volume surveys the medieval achievements and modern significance of Christian, Islamic, and Judaic life and culture. It includes the dramatic stories of St. Augustine, Hypatia, Justinian, Mohammed, Harun al-Rashid, Charlemagne, William the Conqueror, Eleanor of Aquitaine, Richard the Lion-Hearted, Saladin, Maimonides, St. Francis, St. Thomas Aquinas, Roger Bacon, and many others, all in the perspective of integrated history. The greatest love stories in literaure -- of Heloise and Abelard, of Dante and Beatrice -- are here retold with enthralling scholarship.

The Age of Faith covers the economy, politics, law, government, religion, morals, manners, education, literature, science, philosophy, and art of the Christians, Moslems, and Jews during an epoch that saw vital contests among the three great religions and between the religious and the secular view of human life. All the romance, poverty, splendor, piety and immorality, feudalism and monasticism, heresies and inquisitions, cathedrals and universities, troubadours and minnesingers of a picturesque millennium are gathered into one fascinating narrative.

This volume, and the series of which it is a part, has been compared with the great work of the French encyclopedists of the eighteenth century. The Story of Civilization represents the most comprehensive attempt in our times to embrace the vast panorama of man's history and culture.

This, then, is about YOU. Join our group daily and listen to what Durant and the rest of us are saying. Better yet, share with us your opinions.



Your Discussion Leader:Robby Iadeluca

Story of Civilization, Vol. IV, Part 1
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Theron Boyd
October 13, 2004 - 07:17 am
Welcome to the new place!!

Don't forget to SUBSCRIBE!!

Theron

Malryn (Mal)
October 13, 2004 - 07:22 am
Thank you, THERON. That was nice of you.

Imagine, another 1003 posts.

Mal

ALF
October 13, 2004 - 09:23 am

JoanK
October 13, 2004 - 10:50 am
Robby: that chart was really interesting. It sounds like the Eastern church is closer to some Eastern religeons, in emphasis, if not specifics.

winsum
October 13, 2004 - 11:41 am
a series of closer and closer closeups of a mozaic on the phoenician art of mozaic. but I couldn't find out who it is. . . claire



http://www.phoenicianarts.com/detail.aspx?item=287

Justin
October 13, 2004 - 01:55 pm
Mal; Thanks for showing full mosaic. Never before in the history of politics has a foot fall been so significant.

Joan: The gals are included in the convention. The queen's left foot overlaps but does not step on her inferior. You might also note where she holds the wine in relation to the cleric who stands next to her on the her right. She and the wine, soon to be blood, are more important than the cleric. The queen also wears a halo signifying her role as priestess and empress.

Justin
October 13, 2004 - 02:02 pm
Claire: I was unable to bring up the mosaics you refer to.

Shasta Sills
October 13, 2004 - 02:38 pm
Justin, how do you remember all these things? What little art history I knew, I've forgotten.

I still don't understand what monophysitism is. If Christ has only one nature (rather than two--divine and human) which one does he have?

winsum
October 13, 2004 - 03:08 pm
sorry Justin.. I just copied the url again. let 's see if it works for you..the other one did for me. as does this one. I just checkedd. http://www.phoenicianarts.com/detail.aspx?item=287 claire

robert b. iadeluca
October 13, 2004 - 03:37 pm
Shasta:-My understanding is that with monophysitism, Christ is just human. But I am open to being corrected.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 13, 2004 - 04:41 pm
"Belisarius, like Justinian, came of Illyrian peasant stock, recalling those Balkan emperors -- Aurelian, Probus, Diocletian -- who had saved the Empire in the third century. No general since Caesar ever won so many victories with such limited resources of men and funds. Few ever surpassed him in strategy or tactics, in popularity with his men and mercy to his foes. Perhaps it merits note that the greatest generals -- Alexander, Caesar, Belisarius, Saladin, Napoleon -- found clemency a mighty engine of war. There was a strain of sensitivity and tenderness in Belisarius, as in those others, which could turn the soldier into a lover as soon as his bloody tasks were done.

"And as the Emperor doted on Theodora, so Belisarius adored Antonina, bore with melting fury her infidelities, and for divers reasons, took her with him on his campaigns.

"In June, 533, five hundred transports and ninety-two warships gathered in the Bosporus, received the commands of the Emperor and the blessings of the patriarch, and sailed for Carthage. Procopius was on Belisarius' staff and wrote a vivid account of the 'Vandal War.' Landing in Africa with only 5000 cavalry, Belisarius swept through the improvised defenses of Carthage and in a few months overthrew the Vandal power. Justinian too hastily recalled him for a triumph at Constantinople. The Moors, pouring down from the hills, attacked the Roman garrison. Belisarius hurried back just in time to quell a mutiny among the troops and lead them to victory.

"Carthaginian Africa henceforth remained under Byzantine rule until the Arabs came.

"The Emperor was grateful and suspicious. Belisarius had rewarded himself well out of the spoils of victory. He had won the too-personal loyalty of his troops. He had been offered a kingdom. Might he not aspire to seize the throne from the nephew of a usurper? Justinian recalled him and noticed uneasily the splendor of the general's retinue.

"The Byzantines, Procpius reports, 'took delight in watching Belisarius as he came forth from his home each day. His progress resembled a crowded festival procession since he was always escorted by a large number of Vandals, Goths, and Moors. Furthermore, he had a fine figure and was tall and remarkably handsme.

"But his conduct was so meek and his manners so affable tht he seemed like a very poor man and one of no repute.'"

A wolf in sheep's clothing?

Robby

Justin
October 13, 2004 - 09:37 pm
Eutyches was the author of the Monophysite doctrine. Christ, he said, was of two natures, not in them; before the union there existed the two natures, divine and human, but after the union the two so blended that there was one nature only, and that fully divine. Jesus was humoousion with the father but not with man.

Justin
October 13, 2004 - 10:02 pm
When Eutyches expressed his concept of Monophysitism he was attacking another heresy called Nestorianism. Nestorius taught that God dwelt in Christ as in a son. The union of the two being compared to that of man and wife. He said God could not be born of a woman who could not bear a son older than herself. The term implied that the human in Christ was swallowed up in the divinity.

Nestorius recognized one son and one Christ in two natures. Their union was considered little more than a moral union of two distinct beings by the orthodox. Quite a bundle of nonsense, when one remembers the figure we met in Jerusalem. Poor Jesus has acquired an aura by human agreement-by fiat. What would he say to these nitpickers were he to appear?

robert b. iadeluca
October 14, 2004 - 04:27 am
"History rightly forgets Justinian's wars and remembers him for his laws. A century had elapsed since the publication of Theodosius' Code. Many of its regulations had been made obsolete by changing conditions. Many new laws had been passed which lay in confusion on the statute books. Many contradictions in the laws hampered executives and courts.

"The influence of Christianity had modified legislation and interpretation. The civil laws of Rome often conflicted with the laws of the nations composing the Empire. Many of the old enactments were ill adapted to the Hellenistic tradition of the East.

"The whole vast body of Roman law had become an empirical accumulation rather than a logical code.

"Justinian's unifying passion resented this chaos as it chafed at the dismemberment of the Empire. In 528 he appointed ten jurists to systematize, clarify, and reform the laws. The most active and influential member of this commission was the quaestor Tribonian who, despite venality and suspected atheism, remained to his death the chief inspirer, adviser, and executant of Justinian legislative plans.

"The first part of the task was accomplished with undue haste and was issued in 529 as the Codex Constitutionum. It was declared to be the law of the Empire and all preceding legislation was nullified except as re-enacted herein.

"The commissioners then proceeded to the second part of their assigment:- to gather into a system those responsa or opinions of the great Roman jurists which still seemed worthy to have the force of law. The result was published as the Digesta or Pandectae (533).

"The opinions quoted, and the interpretations given, were henceforth to be binding upon all judges. All other opinions lost legal authority. Older collections of responsa ceased to be copied and for the most part disappeared.

"What remains of them suggests that Justinian's redactors omitted opinions favorable to freedom, and by impious fraud transformed some judgments of ancient jurists to better consonance with abslute rule.

"This Code, like the Theodosian, enacted orthodox Christianity into law. It began by declaring for the Trinity and anathematized Nestorius, Euryches, and Apollinaris.

"It acknowledgd the ecclesiastical leadership of the Roman Church, and orderd all Christian groups to submit to her authority.

"But ensuing chapters proclaimed the dominion of the emperor over the Church. All ecclesiastical, like all civil law, was to emanate from the throne.

"The Code proceeded to make laws for metropolitans, bishops, abbots, and monks, and specified penalties for clerics who gambled, or attended the theater or the games. Manicheans or relapsed heretics were to be put to death.

"Donatists, Montanists, Monophysites, and other dissenters were to suffer confiscation of their goods, and were declared incompetent to buy or sell, to inherit or bequeath. They were excluded from public office, forbidden to meet, and disqualified from suing orthodox Christians for debt.

"A gentler enactment empowered bishops to visit prisons, and to protect prisoners from abuses of the law.

"The Code replaced older distinctions of class. Freedmen were no longer treated as a separate group;. They enjoyed at once, on their emancipation, all the privileges of freemen. They might rise to be senators or emperors. All freemen were divided into honestiores -- men of honor or rank -- and humiliores -- commoners. A hierarchy of rank, which had developed among the honestiores since Diocletian, was sanctioned by Code:- patrici, illustres, spectabiles (hence our respectable), clarisstimi, and gloriosi.

"There were many Oriental elements in this roman law."

We, in the Western civilization, have our own Constitutions. Justinian had his. Any comparisons or comments?

Robby

winsum
October 14, 2004 - 05:11 am
the justinian "constitution" repressed more freedoms than it provided. Our constitution is a guarantee of personal freedom. . . big difference.

Malryn (Mal)
October 14, 2004 - 01:42 pm
"500 AD: Scriptures have been Translated into Over 500 Languages.

"529: Justinian's Code - This Emperor of Byzantine is best remembered for his codification of Roman Law in a series of books called Corpus Juris Civilis. His collection served as an important basis for law in contemporary society, and was inspired by logic-based Greek legal principles. Many legal maxims still in use today are derived from Justinian's Code. His work inspired the modern concept and, indeed, the very spelling of "justice". This Roman Code survived as the many parts of Germany until 1900 and important traces of it can be found in the law of Italy, Scotland, South Africa and Quebec. Roman law formed the base of civil law, one of the two main legal systems to govern modern society in the Western civilization (the other being English common law). A quote: 'The things which are common to all (and not capable of being owned) are: the air, running water, the sea and the seashores.' "

Justinian Code: Religion

Malryn (Mal)
October 14, 2004 - 02:07 pm
Corpus Iuris Civilis of Justinian (translated) on the Fordham University Site: Medieval Sourcebook

Shasta Sills
October 14, 2004 - 02:37 pm
I usually think the Catholic Church was pretty heavy-handed in suppressing dissenting sects. But when you try to figure out what all those Donatists, Montanists, and Monophysites were up to, I can't blame them for shutting down the whole conglomeration. All they were doing was creating confusion with all that hair-splitting, and what difference did any of it make anyhow?

robert b. iadeluca
October 14, 2004 - 04:57 pm
"The Code showed some Christian or Stoic influence in its legislation on slavery. The rape of a slave woman, as of a free woman, was to be punished with death. A slave might marry a free woman if his master consented. Justinian, like the Church, encouraged manumissions. But his law allowed a newborn child to be sold into slavery if its parents were desperate with poverty.

"Certain passages of the Code legalized serfdom and prepared for feudalism. A freeman who had cultivated a tract of land for thirty years was required, with his descendants, to remain forever attached to that piece of land. The measure was explained as discouraging the desertion of the soil.

"A serf who ran away, or became a cleric without his lord's consent, could be reclaimed like a runaway slave.

"The status of woman was moderately improved by the Code. Her subjection to lifelong guardianship had been ended in the fourth century, and the old principle that inheritance could pass only through males had become obsolete. The Church, which often received legacies from a woman, did much to secure these reforms.

"Justinian sought to enforce the views of the Church on divorce, and forbade it except when one of the parties wished to enter a convent or monastery. But this was too extreme a departure from existing customs and law. Large sections of the public protested that it would increase the number of poisonings.

"The later legislation of the emperor listed a generous variety of grounds for divorce. This, with some interruptions, remained the law of the Byzantine Empire until 1453.

"Penalties imposed by Augustus upon celibacy and childlessness were removed in the Code. Constantine had made adultery a capital crime, though he had rarely enforced the decree.

"Justinian kept the death penalty for men, but reduced the penalty for the woman to immurement in a nunnery. A husband might with impunity kill the paramour of his wife if, after sending her three witnessed warnings, he found her in his own house, or in a tavern, conversing with the suspected man. Similarly severe penalties were decreed for intercourse with an unmarried woman or a widow, unless she was a concubine or a prostitute.

"Rape was punished with death and confiscation of property, and the proceeds were given to the injured woman.

"Justinian not only decreed death for homosexual acts, but often added torture, mutilation, and the public parading of the guilty persons before their execution.

"In this extreme legislation against sexual irregularities we feel the influence of a Christianity shocked into a ferocious puritanism by the sins of pagan civilization."

Further comments about this section of the Justinian Code?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 14, 2004 - 05:12 pm
Some here may remember the uproar when the Chief Justice of the Alabama Supreme Court erected a monument of the Ten Commandments in front of the Courthouse. This ARTICLE shows the connection (or lack of connection) of this behavior to the Justinian Code.

Robby

Justin
October 14, 2004 - 10:24 pm
The Justinian code served to establish the Roman pontif as the primary See and the pontif of Constantinople as second in command. Constantine is often acknowledged as the most significant political contributor to establishment of the Church but Justinian did more in his codes, I think, to force Roman Catholicism on the empire. He made it a crime to believe anything other than that specified by Vatican 1 and Chalcedon. He describes Peter as the Divine Peter. So, the code gives us four divinities-the Trinity and Peter.

The punishment rights of the Church and of the State are addressed in this code. Six hundred years down the road, when Henry ll and Thomas Beckett clash, the issue will again be punishment rights. Henry will murder Thomas to retain the right of the crown to punish clergy for civil crimes.

Bubble
October 15, 2004 - 03:14 am
Is immurement in a nunnery better than death??? How magnanimous of Justinian!

robert b. iadeluca
October 15, 2004 - 04:08 am
Here is an editorial in today's NY Times related to POPES AND SAINTS.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 15, 2004 - 04:39 am
"Justinian made a decisive change in the law of property. The ancient privilege of agnate relatives -- relatives through the male line -- to inherit an intestate property was abolished. Such inheritance was now to descend to the cognate relatives in direct line -- children, grandchildren, etc.

"Charitable gifts and bequests were encouraged by the Code. The property of the Church, whether in realty or movables, rents, serfs, or slaves, was declared inalienable. No member, and no number of members, of the clergy or the laity, could give, sell, or bequeath anything belonging to the Church. These laws of Leo I and Anthemius, confirmed by the Code, became the legal basis of the Church's growing wealth. Secular property was dissipated -- ecclesiastical property was accumulated -- in the course of generations.

"The Church tried, and failed, to have interest forbidden. Defaulting debtors could be arrested, but were to be released on bail or on their oath of return for trial.

"No one could be imprisoned except by order of a high magistrate. There were strict limits to the time that might elapse between arrest and trial. Lawyers were so numerous that Justinian built for them a basilica whose size may be judged from its library of 150,000 volumes or rolls.

"Trial was to be held before a magistrate appointed by the emperor. But if both parties so wished, the case could be transferred to the bishop's court.

"A copy of the Bible was placed before the judge in each trial. The attorneys were required to swear on it to the justice of their cause.

"Penalties, though severe, were seldom mandatory. The judge might mitigate them for women, minors, and drunken offenders. Imprisonment was used as detention for trial, but seldom as a punishment.

"The Justinian Code retrogressed from the laws of Hadrian and Antoninus Pius by permitting mutilation as a penalty.

"Tax collectors falsifying returns, and persons copying Monophysite literature, could suffer the loss of a hand, on the theory that the offending member shold pay for the crime. Amputation of nose or throat is frequently decreed in the Code. Later Byzantine law added blinding, especially as a means for disqualifying heirs or aspirants to the throne.

"The death penalty was carried out on free persons by beheading, on some slaves by crucifixion. Sorcerers and deserters from the army were burned alive.

"A condemned citizen might appeal to a higher court, then to the Senate, finally to the emperor."

Durant's explanation of the Justinian Code has been so enlightening to me. I had no idea how much our present day Codes in the Western Civilization reflect that of Justinian. Much of what is going on these days relates to the law. I will never again read news articles about court cases without thinking of Justinian.

I have also increased my respect for America's founding fathers who obviously were knowledgeable in English law and the Justinian Code as they wrote our Constitution. To think that the law I must follow on a day-to-day basis was, in many cases, created almost 2000 years ago! I don't intend to move into the law profession but I will certainly follow what is going on these days in the law arena with different eyes. For example, the Justinian Code mandated that people in court swear on the Bible. And here we are fighting about that in the 21st century.

Any comments here?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 15, 2004 - 05:29 am
Here are TWO CHURCH-STATE CASES currently before the U.S. Supreme Court.

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
October 15, 2004 - 06:53 am
"For example, the Justinian Code mandated that people in court swear on the Bible. And here we are fighting about that in the 21st century."

If that is taken away, what will people swear on? Is there a book that has been revered by that many people over time which has commanded as much respect as the Bible? Perhaps Asians would have their own Holy Book to swear on, or don't they need any.

Eloïse

Malryn (Mal)
October 15, 2004 - 10:21 am
The Christian Bible means nothing to people who are not Christian. It is just another book. How about hand-over-heart swearing on one's word? It makes as much sense as putting your hand on a book which is only as holy as you think it is.

Mal

Justin
October 15, 2004 - 11:16 am
How about" On my honor, I affirm". Then, too, there is a penalty for perjury to help in eliciting the truth. The Bible was never a completely satisfactory device for swearing upon because as Mal pointed out many Americans do not view the bible as a holy document. An old Sicilian custom was to swear on the soul of one's mother. Then one may also resort to torture. "Tell me the truth, you scum, or I will stretch you some more."

Scrawler
October 15, 2004 - 01:38 pm
I think that in some respects that the Catholic Church bent some of the Justian Code to their benefit. An example of this would be giving more rights to woman, who are more apt to give to the church.

As Robby pointed out you can find that the Justian Code is part of our life and don't you think the church is still bending the code to their benefit?

Justin
October 15, 2004 - 04:18 pm
What I'd like to know, Scrawler, is how they fixed things so they pay no taxes on their business or property? That was a neat trick.

robert b. iadeluca
October 15, 2004 - 04:45 pm
"We can admire the Code of Justinian more readily as a whole than in its parts. It differs most from earlier codes by its rigid orthodoxy, its deeper obscurantism, its vengeful severity. An educated Roman would have found life more civilized under the Antonines than under Justinian.

"The Emperor could not escape his environment and his time. In his ambition to unify everything he codified the superstition and barbarity, as well as the justice and charity of his age.

"The Code was conservative, like everything Byzantine, and served as a strait jacket for a civilization that seemed destined never to die. It soon ceased to be obeyed except in a narrowing realm.

"The Eastern nationalist heretics whom it flayed opened their arms to the Moslems, and propsered better under the Koran than under the Code. Italy under the Lombards, Gaul under the Franks, England under the Anglo-Saxons, Spain under the Visigoths, ignored the edicts of Justinian.

"Nevertheless the Code for some generations gave order and security to a motley assemblage of peoples, and allowed, across the frontiers and along the streets of a dozen nations, freer and safer movement than the same regions enjoy today.

"It continued to the end the code of the Byzantine Empire. Five centuries after it disappeared in the West it was revived by the jurists of Bologna, accepted by emperors and popes, and entered like a scaffolding of order into the structure of many modern states."

Any comments as we leave the discussion of the Code?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 15, 2004 - 04:46 pm
The Imperial Theologian

robert b. iadeluca
October 15, 2004 - 05:22 pm
"It remained only to unify belief, to weld the Church into a homogeneous instrument of rule.

"Probably Justinian's piety was sincere, not merely political. He himself, as far as Theodora would permit, lived like a monk in his palace -- fasting and praying -- poring over theological tomes -- and debating doctrinal niceties with professors, patriarchs, and popes.

"Procopius, with transparent concurrence, quotes a conspirator:-'It ill becomes anyone who has even a little spirit in him to refuse to murder Justinian. Nor should he entertain any fear of a man who always sits unguarded in some lobby to a late hour of the night, eagerly unrolling the Christian Scriptures in company with priests who are at the extremity of old age.'

"Almost the first use that Justinian had made of his power as regent for Justin was to end the breach that had been widened between the Eastern and The Western Church by the Emperor Zeno's Henoticon.

"By accepting the viewpoint of the papacy, Justinian won the support of the orthodox clergy in Italy against the Goths, and in the East against the Monophysites.

"This sect, arguing passionately that there was but one nature in Christ, had bcome almost as numerous in Egypt as the Catholics. In Alexandria they were so advanced that they in turn could divide into orthodox and heterodox Monophysites. These factions fought in the streets, while their women joined in with missiles from the roofs.

"When the armed forces of the Emperor installed a Catholic bishop in the see of Athanasius, the congregation greeted his first sermon with a volley of stones, and was slaughtered in situ by the imperial soldiery. While Catholicism controlled the Alexandrian episcopacy, heresy spread throughout the countryside.

"The peasants ignored the decrees of the patriarch and the orders of the Emperor, and Egypt was half lost to the Empire a century before the Arabs came."

Peace at the point of a gun, so to speak.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 15, 2004 - 05:29 pm
This article speaks of the COPTS IN EGYPT.

Robby

Justin
October 15, 2004 - 10:14 pm
Robby; It looks to me more like religion at the point of a sword. Believe as I believe or die. Believe that the human and the divine natures of Jesus blend into one nature ie; divine. Today, Christians believe Jesus is both human and divine without blending into one or the other. I don't really think anyone other than the most rabid theologian spends anytime on the issue. It is settled into dogma. The idea would no more be challenged than would the idea that Jesus is God be challenged.

Justin
October 15, 2004 - 10:39 pm
The image of Christ that appears in post #34 is that of Christ crowned and enthroned. He sits on a throne backed by a cloth of honor that has the appearance of a mandorla and probably indicates an aura that emanates from the power of God. The image is flanked by the four evangelists who appear as described in Ezekial and in Revelations.They are winged creatures. Matthew is the man; Mark, the lion; Luke, the ox; and John, the eagle.

This crowned image is far from the earlier image we have of Jesus as the gentle but clean shaven Shepherd who bears a lamb on his shoulder. The contrast emphasizes the concept we have been examining ie; the contrast of Human and Divine.

Technically, the image is a probably a wax based encaustic on a wood panel.

Bubble
October 16, 2004 - 02:27 am
Mmm...That coptic site was not informative enough for me!



I have a cousin who is married to a Copt from Haile Selassie's family. Thus She is Ethiopian. She was always very careful to point out that she was not a Christian but a Copt. Here it seems to me that there is not much difference? Pity I am not in touch with her since they emigrated to Canada.



Maybe Mahlia can explain it, the Coptic Church originated in Egypt from this site and her husband may be part of it. Which language is the Coptic one, surely it has a name?



The painting looks very much in the same style as those find in Aksum and the old sites of Ethiopia, with the same elongated face and serene pose.

robert b. iadeluca
October 16, 2004 - 02:44 am
"In this matter, as in many others, the persistent Theodora overcame the vacillating Justinian. She intrigued with Vigilius, a Roman deacon, to make him pope if he would offer concessions to the Monophysites. Pope Silverius was removed from Rome by Belisarius (537) and was exiled to the island of Palmaria, where he soon died from harsh treatment. Vigilius was made Pope by the orders of the emperor.

"Finally accepting Theodora's view that Monophysitism could not be crushed, Justinian sought to appease its followers in a document of imperial theology known as the Three Chapters. He summoned Viglius to Constantinople and urged him to subscribe to this statement. Vigilius reluctantly consented, whereupon the African Catholic clergy excommunicated him (590). He withdrew his consent, was exiled by Justinian to a rock in the Proconnesus, again consented, obtained leave to return to Rome, but died on the way (555).

"Never had an emperor made so open an attempt to dominate the papacy. Justinian called an ecumenical council to meet at Constantinople (553). Hardly any Western bishops attended. The council approved Justinian's formulas. The Western Church rejected them.

"Eastern and Western Christianity resumed their schism for a century.

"In the end death won all arguments. Theodora's passing in 548 was to Justinian the heaviest of many blows that broke down his courage, clarity, and strength. He was then sixty-five, weakened by asceticism and recurrent crises. He left the government to subordinates, neglected the defenses he had so labored to build, and abandoned himself to theology.

"In his final years his interest in theology had borne strange fruit. The defender of the faith had become a heretic. He announced that the body of Christ was incorruptible and that Christ's human nature had never been subject to any of the wants and indignities of mortal flesh. The clergy warned him that if he died in this error his soul would 'be delivered to the flames and burn there eternally.'

"He died unrepentant (565) after a life of eighty-three years and a reign of thirty-eight.

"Justinian's death was one more point at which antiquity might be said to end. He was a true Roman emperor, thinking in terms of all the Empire East and West, struggling to keep back the barbarians and to bring again to the vast realm an orderly government of homogenous laws.

"He was a great ruler, whose very faults sprang from the logic and sincerity of his creed --his persecutions from his certainty -- his wars from his Roman spirit -- his confiscations from his wars. We mourn the narrow violence of his methods and applaud the grandeur of his aims.

"He and Belisarius, not Boniface and Aetius, were the last of the Romans."

Your concluding thoughts regarding Justinian? Theodora?

Robby

Bubble
October 16, 2004 - 02:49 am
Have you seen this? http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/17/books/review/17SHULEVI.html?8bu

'The Five Books of Moses: A Translation With Commentary' by Robert Alter Review by JUDITH SHULEVITZ

"Robert Alter, who has come up with this remarkable translation of the Five Books after decades of writing some of the most convincing analyses ever produced of the Hebrew Bible, is a critic with the strength of mind to resist the urge to uplift.

robert b. iadeluca
October 16, 2004 - 02:51 am
"In this matter, as in many others, the persistent Theodora overcame the vacillating Justinian. She intrigued with Vigilius, a Roman deacon, to make him pope if he would offer concessions to the Monophysites. Pope Silverius was removed from Rome by Belisarius (537) and was exiled to the island of Palmaria, where he soon died from harsh treatment. Vigilius was made Pope by the orders of the emperor.

"Finally accepting Theodora's view that Monophysitism could not be crushed, Justinian sought to appease its followers in a document of imperial theology known as the Three Chapters. He summoned Viglius to Constantinople and urged him to subscribe to this statement. Vigilius reluctantly consented, whereupon the African Catholic clergy excommunicated him (590). He withdrew his consent, was exiled by Justinian to a rock in the Proconnesus, again consented, obtained leave to return to Rome, but died on the way (555).

"Never had an emperor made so open an attempt to dominate the papacy. Justinian called an ecumenical council to meet at Constantinople (553). Hardly any Western bishops attended. The council approved Justinian's formulas. The Western Church rejected them.

"Eastern and Western Christianity resumed their schism for a century.

"In the end death won all arguments. Theodora's passing in 548 was to Justinian the heaviest of many blows that broke down his courage, clarity, and strength. He was then sixty-five, weakened by asceticism and recurrent crises. He left the government to subordinates, neglected the defenses he had so labored to build, and abandoned himself to theology.

"In his final years his interest in theology had borne strange fruit. The defender of the faith had become a heretic. He announced that the body of Christ was incorruptible and that Christ's human nature had never been subject to any of the wants and indignities of mortal flesh. The clergy warned him that if he died in this error his soul would 'be delivered to the flames and burn there eternally.'

"He died unrepentant (565) after a life of eighty-three years and a reign of thirty-eight.

"Justinian's death was one more point at which antiquity might be said to end. He was a true Roman emperor, thinking in terms of all the Empire East and West, struggling to keep back the barbarians and to bring again to the vast realm an orderly government of homogenous laws.

"He was a great ruler, whose very faults sprang from the logic and sincerity of his creed --his persecutions from his certainty -- his wars from his Roman spirit -- his confiscations from his wars. We mourn the narrow violence of his methods and applaud the grandeur of his aims.

"He and Belisarius, not Boniface and Aetius, were the last of the Romans."

Your concluding thoughts regarding Justinian? Theodora?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 16, 2004 - 02:53 am
Bubble:-Here is further information about the COPTS IN ETHIOPIA.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 16, 2004 - 03:33 am
Byzantine Civilization

326-565

robert b. iadeluca
October 16, 2004 - 03:48 am
"Byzantine economy was a modernistic mixture of private enterprise, state regulation, and nationalized industries. Peasant proprietorship was still, under Justinian, the agricultural rule. Estates were expanding and many farmers were being forced into feudal subjection to great landowners by drought or flood, competetition or incompetence, taxation or war.

"The mineral resources of the soil were owned by the state but were mostly raised by private agencies on governmental lease. The mines of Greece were exhausted but old and new veins were worked in Thrace, Pontus, and the Balkans. Most industrial labor was 'free' - i.e. compelled only by a distaste for starvation.

"Direct slavery played a negligible role outside of domestic services and the textile industry. In Syria, and probably in Egypt and North Africa, forced labor was used by the state to maintain the major irrigation canals.

"The government produced in its own factories most of the goods required by the army, the bureaucracy, and the courts.

"About the year 552 some Nestorian monks from Central Asia interested Justinian with an offer to provide the Empire with an independent source of silk. If we recall how many wars Greece and Rome had fought with Persia for control of the trade routes to China and India, and remark the name 'silk route' given to the northern passes to the Far East, the name Serica (Silk-land) given by the Romans to China, and name Serindia applied to the region between China and India, we shall understand why Justinian eagerly acccepted the proposal.

"The monks went back to Central Asia and returned with the eggs of silkworms and probably some seedlings of the mulberry tree. A small silk industry already existed in Greece but it depended upon wild silkworms, feeding on oak, ash, or cypress leves.

Now silk became a major industry, especially in Syria and Greece. It developed to such an extent in the Peloponnesus as to give that peninsula the new name of Morea -- land of the mulberry tree (morus alba).

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 16, 2004 - 03:56 am
Here is an absolutely intriguing article (with photos) on the HISTORY OF SILK.

The section under "A Secret Out to the World" tells of the Nestorian Monks.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 16, 2004 - 04:28 am
Did you know about the use of SILK MAPS during World War II?

Robby

Bubble
October 16, 2004 - 05:17 am
Great links, Robby and that info about the silk maps was particularly interesting. Thanks!

Sorry I am not commenting much, I get lost in those technical differences of essentially the same credo. Somehow I could only wish that all these beliefs were more flexible and liberal, instead of inciting to strife. Bubble

Éloïse De Pelteau
October 16, 2004 - 05:32 am
Fascinating link Robby, a commodity comparable to today's crude oil. Without silk, life was not worth living, or something like that. I must look for a silk map scarf, it might be useful in a crisis. Excellent article.

Eloïse

robert b. iadeluca
October 16, 2004 - 07:43 am
This article in this morning's NY Times speaks about the CURRENT PAPACY.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
October 16, 2004 - 08:14 am
"The Coptic Church is based on the teachings of Saint Mark who brought Christianity to Egypt during the reign of the Roman emperor Nero in the first century, a dozen of years after the Lord's ascension.

"The Coptic Church has never believed in monophysitism the way it was portrayed in the Council of Chalcedon! In that Council, monophysitism meant believing in one nature. Copts believe that the Lord is perfect in His divinity, and He is perfect in His humanity, but His divinity and His humanity were united in one nature called 'the nature of the incarnate word', which was reiterated by Saint Cyril of Alexandria. Copts, thus, believe in two natures 'human' and 'divine' that are united in one 'without mingling, without confusion, and without alteration' (from the declaration of faith at the end of the Coptic divine liturgy). These two natures 'did not separate for a moment or the twinkling of an eye' (also from the declaration of faith at the end of the Coptic divine liturgy)."

Source:

Christian Coptic Orthodox Church of Egypt




Picture of the Pope of Alexandria

Coptic Alphabet

robert b. iadeluca
October 16, 2004 - 11:20 am
"In Constantinople the manufacture of certain silk fabrics and purple dyes was a state monopoly and was carried on in workshops in or near the imperial palace. Expensive silks and dyed fabrics were permitted only to high officials of the government and the most costly could be worn only by members of the imperial family.

"When clandestine private enterprise produced and sold similar stuffs to unprivileged persons, Justinian broke this 'black market' by removing most of the restrictions on the use of luxurious silks and dyes. He flooded the shops with state textiles at prices that private competition could not meet. When the competition had disappeared, the government raised the prices.

"Following Diocletian's example, Justinian sought to extend governmental control to all prices and wages. After the plague of 542 the labor supply fell, wages, rose, and prices soared.

"From Constantine to the latter part of Justinian's reign, domestic and foreign trade flourished in the Byzantine Empire. Roman roads and bridges were there kept in repair and the creative lust for gain built maritime fleets that bound the capital with a hundred ports in East and West.

"From the fifth century to the fifteenth, Constantinople remained the greatest market and shipping center in the world. Alexandria, which had held this supremacy from the third century B.C., now ranked in trade below Antioch.

"All Syria throve with commerce and industry. It lay between Persia and Constantinople, between Constantinople and Egypt. Its merchants were shrewd and venturesome and only the effervescent Greeks could rival them in the extent of their traffic and the subtlety of their ways.

"Their spread throughout the Empire was a factor in that orientalization of manners and arts which marked Byzantine civilization."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 16, 2004 - 11:24 am
"That orientalization of manners and arts which marked Byzantine civilization."

As we enter the Byzantine Civilization, those folks here who participated in the first volume, "Our Oriental Heritage," may find themselves entering familiar territory.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 16, 2004 - 11:50 am
Here is a MAP of the Byzantine Empire. Note the important informational text below the map.

Robby

Bubble
October 16, 2004 - 01:58 pm
So that is the Copt Alphabet, nothing to do with the Amharic alphabet from Ethiopia. I am stunned at the similitude with the Greek Aphabet. I could recognize all the letters except a very few at the end. I knew about Heratic and Demotic, but I had never heard the demotic called Copt. Thanks Mal for making that clear.

Justinian seems to have been a very shrewed business man in the way he controlled the silk market. No wonder Constantinople was so famed.

robert b. iadeluca
October 16, 2004 - 03:12 pm
Here is a DESCRIPTION written by our old friend, Procopius, of the plague of 542 mentioned by Durant. I found myself reading it in detail -- first because it is so well written and gives a wonderful accurate description of the disease itself but also because it told how people acted during this pestilence.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 16, 2004 - 03:27 pm
Excerpt from "Plague in the Ancient World" regarding the plague in the times of Justinian.



This was the first known pandemic of bubonic plague to affect Europe. While it is less famous than the Black Death of the fourteenth century, the Justinianic plague was certainly quite as deadly. Bubonic plague is spread by the bite of fleas which find their home on rodents. The black rat carried the Black Death, and there is no reason to believe that it was not an active carrier in the sixth century. It probably was not the only carrier; the dogs which are described as dying in Constantinople almost certainly carried fleas as well.

Once trading brought the plague to a city, rats found urban areas, which were overcrowded with a stationary population, conducive to their lifestyle. This assessment agrees with the evidence in that although the disease overwhelmed the Roman and Persian Empires, the nomadic Berbers of Africa and the Arab peoples were not greatly affected by the plague.



The plague itself actually occurs in three forms: bubonic, pneumonic (also called pulmonary), and septicaemic. The bubonic variety, which must exist before the other two strains can become active is not directly contagious unless the patient harbors fleas. Since Procopius did not state that those who cared for the sick necessarily contracted the disease, it is inferred that the bubonic form was most active in the Justinianic plague.

Pneumonic plague occurs when the disease bacilli, called Yersinia pestis, invade the lungs. This variety is highly contagious from one person to another, and is spread by airborne droplets. Due to Procopius’ observation that the plague was not directly contagious, and the absence of the major symptoms of pneumonic plague in the accounts, namely shallow breathing and tightness in the chest, this form was probably not very active.

Septicaemia occurs when the infection enters the bloodstream, and death is swift, usually before buboes are able to form. In his account, Agathias reported some victims dying as if by an attack of apoplexy. This seems to indicate that the septicaemic form did exist during the sixth century outbreak. Bubonic plague results in death in roughly 70 percent of cases; pneumonic plague has over a 90 percent mortality rate. Septicaemic plague leaves no survivors. Although all three forms probably existed during the Justinianic plague, clearly the bubonic form predominated.



During the Justinianic plague, many victims experienced hallucinations previous to the outbreak of illness. The first symptoms of the plague followed closely behind these hallucinations though; they included fever and fatigue, neither of which seemed life-threatening. Evagrius described facial inflammation, followed by a sore throat, as an introductory symptom. Some victims also initially suffered from diarrhea. Soon however, buboes appeared in the groin area or armpits, or occasionally beside the ears. Following this symptom, the disease progressed rapidly; infected individuals usually died within two to three days. The victim generally entered a semi-conscious, lethargic state, and would not wish to eat or drink. Following this stage, the victims would be seized by madness, causing great difficulties to those who attempted to care for them.

Many people died painfully when their buboes gangrened. A number of victims broke out with black blisters covering their bodies, and these individuals died swiftly. Still others died vomiting blood. Pregnant women who contracted the disease generally died through miscarriage or in childbirth, but curiously, Agathias reports that young males suffered the heaviest toll overall.

There were also cases, however, in which the buboes grew to great size, and then ruptured and suppurated. If this occurred, the patient usually recovered, although s/he would often suffer afterwards from muscular tremors. Doctors, noticing this trend and not knowing how else to fight the disease, sometimes lanced the buboes of those infected to discover that carbuncles had formed. Those individuals who did survive infection usually had to live with withered thighs and tongues, classic aftereffects of the plague. One interesting fact to note here is that humans were not the only victims of this contagion. Animals, including dogs, mice, and even snakes, contracted the disease.

Bubble
October 16, 2004 - 03:30 pm
Very vivid description. I am surprised that procopius makes no mention of animals, not of herds and not of rats.

robert b. iadeluca
October 16, 2004 - 04:02 pm
Did you think that this plague which took place a millennium and a half ago is of no interest to today's scholars? Been there - done that? Click onto JUSTINIANIC PLAGUE to find out what is being done right now as a result of that plague's existence.

Robby

Shasta Sills
October 16, 2004 - 04:08 pm
The process of making silk seems so time-consuming that I don't see how it was ever produced in quantity. The cocoons were dissolved in water, and the threads separated by hand. I remember my mother telling me how cotton fiber was carded into thread. Surely silk is made by machines now?

I wonder what caused a plague to finally die out. People did not know what caused the disease or how to treat it. I remember reading recently that the descendants of bubonic plague victims are immune to AIDS. If they survived the plague, their immune system developed a resistance to this new disease.

robert b. iadeluca
October 16, 2004 - 04:12 pm
Did you think that this plague which took place a millennium and a half ago is of no interest to today's scholars? Been there - done that? Click onto JUSTINIANIC PLAGUE to find out what is being done right now as a result of that plague's existence.

Robby

Bubble
October 17, 2004 - 01:59 am
I never realized that plague still was active today. Thanks, Robby! So international travelling and trade have their black side as well.

JoanK
October 17, 2004 - 02:12 am
I didn't realize it either until I spent a summer in New Mexico, and the papers announced that someone died of bubonic plague gotten hiking outside of town. It remains in isolated areas in that regeon, I don't know why.

Bubble
October 17, 2004 - 02:17 am
That was lucky!

robert b. iadeluca
October 17, 2004 - 02:21 am
Today's evidence of the PLAGUE.

Robby

Bubble
October 17, 2004 - 03:35 am
Robby, you are making me nervous now...

robert b. iadeluca
October 17, 2004 - 03:48 am
Durant continues:-

"Morals, sexual and commercial, were not appreciably different from those of other cultures at a like stage of the economic development. Chrysotom condemned dancing as exciting passion but Constantinople danced. The Church continued to refuse baptism to actors but the Byzantine stage continued to display its suggestive pantomimes.

"Procopius' Secret History, never trustworthy, reports that 'practically all women were corrupt' in his time. Contraceptives were a subject of assiduous study and research. Aetius, in the sixth century, recommended the use of vinegar or brine, or the practice of continence at the beginning and end of the menstrual period. Justinian and Theodora sought to diminish prostitution by banishing procuresses and brothel keepers from Constantinople, with transient results.

"In general the status of woman was high. Never had women been more unfettered in law and custom, or more influential in government.

"What, in this apparently religious society, was the fate of education, learning, literature, science, and philosophy?

"Primary instruction continued in the hands of private teachers paid by the parents per pupil and term. Higher education, until Theodosius II, was provided both by lecturers operating under their own power, and through professions paid by city or state.

"Libanius complained tht these were too poorly paid -- that they longed through hunger to go to the baker, but refrained through fear of being asked to pay their debts.

"The great universities of the East were at Alexandria, Athens, Constantinople, and Antioch, specializing respectively in medicine, philosophy, literature, and rhetoric. According to Augustine the vivisection of human beings was practiced in the fifth century. Superstition encroached daily on medicine. Most physicians accepted astrology and some advised different treatments according to the position of the planets.

"Mules fared better than men. The most scientific work of the period was the Digestorium artis mulomedicinae libri IV of Flavius Vegetius (383-450). This book almost founded veterinary science, and remained an authority until the Renaissance."

Teachers underpaid. Sound familiar?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 17, 2004 - 03:50 am
Bubble:-Are you saying that you were happy in your ignorance? Ignorance is bliss?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
October 17, 2004 - 04:47 am
Why should anyone be surprised that the bubonic plague bacterium is still around? This disease can be cured with antibiotics unless it is of the pneumonic type. That's certainly an improvement over Justinian's time.



My father-in-law was a teacher all of his adult life. He complained about the amount of money he made. He owned his home, two cars and a summer cottage on a lake in Maine.

The base salary for a public school teacher with a B.A. degree and certification in North Carolina is $31,170. That's twice as much as I have to live on, and nearly half my income is from Social Security payments.



Does ignorance lead to belief in gods and ultimately to religion and the bliss found in religious faith? I've been pondering this today after reading posts in another discussion.

Mal

Bubble
October 17, 2004 - 05:29 am


At time ignorance is bliss, Robby, especially when you feel powerless.

No Mal, I don't think religion is always the true consequence of ignorance. It sometime is an easy way out for not taking responsabilities or thinking for oneself; or so I see around here. I would think that bliss is a frame of mind that comes if you really want to believe in it? self-gratification in a way.

Malryn (Mal)
October 17, 2004 - 06:10 am
BUBBLE, in a way I think we're saying the same thing.

I believe we're all very limited and ignorant in many ways, that the mysteries and questions of today will one day be solved and answered, leaving more to be solved and answered.

Richard Feynman said, "We are at the very beginning of time for the human race." Yet there are millions of people right now who refuse even to acknowledge that questions exist because they're so certain they have found the truth through a concept of a god, or because of teachings of a religion.

Scientific research can be, and is, stopped because it appears to go against what was written in a holy book that is ancient from our perception of time, or it appears to go against laws of some religion.

Look what happened in the Dark Ages. Questioning stopped, and it was centuries before it began again.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
October 17, 2004 - 06:17 am
Any reactions to the recent postings from Durant?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
October 17, 2004 - 06:26 am
ROBBY, excuse me, sir, but these are thoughts that sprang from what Durant said about the Bubonic Plague during Justinian's time and from what you and BUBBLE posted about evidence of the same plague's existence now.

That's all from me. I won't plague you any more today (if I can help it.)

Mal

Bubble
October 17, 2004 - 06:32 am
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justinian_I

robert b. iadeluca
October 17, 2004 - 06:41 am
Mal:-Anything about the previous Durant posting regarding silk?

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
October 17, 2004 - 07:31 am
Ah! I though we would dwell on silk and fashion longer, which sends me in a happy frame of mind and when I walk in a fabric store in the rag trade district of Montreal, I can't seem to break away. I don't CARE where they get their silk from as long as I can touch it, it brings a blissful smile on my face. I sew, but not silk, it is too expensive to ruin making mistakes with this wonderful natural fiber.

As for plague, we have other variations of it just as deadly and I don't bother thinking about it.

Eloïse

robert b. iadeluca
October 17, 2004 - 08:08 am
Any reactions to Durant's comments in Post 65 about women?

Robby

Bubble
October 17, 2004 - 08:40 am


"Procopius' Secret History, never trustworthy, reports that 'practically all women were corrupt' in his time."

I wonder if there is anyone in history who called men that? Surely women could not be corrupt without the help of men, ot is that too hard to comprehend? But nothing changes. We said that already.

robert b. iadeluca
October 17, 2004 - 08:45 am
Can men be corrupt without the help of women?

Robby

Bubble
October 17, 2004 - 08:54 am
Surely women are more level-headed, on them depend the survival of the race!



Men, poor creatures, are said to fall easily into temptation and thus have to be protected by secluding women under veils, under keys, behind walls and screens. They must have a natural tendency to corruption, or so I take it... What do you think Robby?

robert b. iadeluca
October 17, 2004 - 08:57 am
I am just mere mortal male. I don't think.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 17, 2004 - 09:52 am
BYZANTINE ART

326-565

robert b. iadeluca
October 17, 2004 - 10:07 am
"The pre-eminent achievements of Byzantine civilization were governmental administration and decorative art. A state that survived eleven centuries, A St. Sophia that stands today.

"By Justinian's time pagan art was finished, and half of its works had been mutilated or destroyed. Barbarian ravages, imperial robbery, and pious destruction had begun a process of ruination and netlect that continued until Petrarch in the fourteenth century pled, so to speak, for the lives of the survivors.

"A factor in the devastation was the popular belief that the pagan gods were demons, and that the temples were their resorts. In any case, it was felt the material could be put to better use in Christian churches or domestic walls. Pagans themselves often joined in the spoliation.

"Seveal Christian emperors, notably Honorius and Theodosius II, did their best to protect the old structures, and enlightened clergymen preserved the parthenon, the temple of Theseus, the Pantheon, and other structures by rededicating them as Christian shrines.

"Christianity at first suspected art as a support of paganism, idolatry, and immorality. These nude statues hardly comported with esteem for virginity and celibacy. When the body seemed an instrument of Satan, and the monk replaced the athlete as ideal, the study of anatomy disppeared from art, leaving a sculpture and painting of gloomy faces and shapeless drapery.

"But when Christianity had triumphed, and great basilicas were needed to house its swellng congregation, the local and national traditions of art reasserted themselves, and architecture lifted itself out of the ruins.

"Moreover, thee spacious edifices cried out for decoration. The worshipers needed statues of Christ and Mary to help the imagination, and pictures to tell to the simple letterless the story of their crucified God.

"Sculpture, mosaic, and painting were reborn."

Art, it turned out, was a basic need.

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
October 17, 2004 - 10:08 am
Posts 76, 77, 78, 79. Yes to all of them. Big, broad smile.

Bubble
October 17, 2004 - 10:18 am
Eloise 79 too?
Mmm... Of course you did meet him. (wicked grin)



The wheel goes round, art is back with all its statues, even nudes.

Justin
October 17, 2004 - 12:28 pm
The ignorant and unlettered required images to encourage their minds in the direction of Christianity. But from time to time the Biblical admonitions against images of God and his cohorts took over the minds of the ignorant and encouraged iconoclasm. That is coming but for now let's be happy with Byzantine art.

Justin
October 17, 2004 - 12:31 pm
Without women there would be no race.

Bubble
October 17, 2004 - 01:11 pm
They encourage running?

robert b. iadeluca
October 17, 2004 - 01:20 pm
"Whence came to Constantinople that uniquely colorful, somberly brilliant art known as Byzantine? It is a question over which archaeologists have fought with almost the ferocity of Christian soldiers. By and large the victory has gone to the East.

"As Syria and Asia Minor grew stronger with industry and Rome weaker with invasion, the Hellenistic tide that had rushed in with Alexander ebbed back from Asia to Europe. From Sasanian Persia -- from Nestorian Syria -- from Coptic Egypt -- Eastern art influences poured into Byzantium and reached to Italy, even to Gaul. The Greek art of naturalistic representation gave place to an Oriental art of symbolic decoration.

"The East preferred color to line -- the vault and dome to the timbered roof -- rich ornament to stern simplicity -- gorgeous silks to shapeless togas. Just as Diocletian and Constantine had adopted the forms of Persian monarchy, so the art of Constantinople looked less and less to the now barbarized West, increasingly to Asia Minor, Armenia, Persia, Syria, and Egypt.

"Perhaps the victory of Persian arms under Shapur II and Khosru Anushirvan quickened the westward march of Eastern motives and forms. Edessa and Nisibis were in this period flourishing centers of a Mesopotamian culture that mingled Iranian, Armenian, Cappadocian, and Syrian elements and transmitted them, through merchants, monks and artisans to Antioch, Alexandria, Ephesus, Constantinople, at last to Revenna and Rome.

"The old classic orders -- Doric, Ionian, Corinthian -- became almost meaningless in an architectural world of arches, vaults, pendentives, and domes."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 17, 2004 - 01:28 pm
This view of CONSTANTINOPLE, THE QUEEN OF CITIES gives an idea of Byzantine art.

Robby

Scrawler
October 17, 2004 - 01:36 pm
Does anyone know if Durant mentions how much the atheletes were paid during this time period? Or were they paid? I was just curious since in our time we seem to pay athletes twice what our teachers are being paid.

Malryn (Mal)
October 17, 2004 - 01:39 pm
Hagia Sophia interior

Interior: Mausoleum Galla Placida

Galla Placida Mausoleum - Main pendentive vault with mosaic representing heavens

Malryn (Mal)
October 17, 2004 - 01:54 pm
Byzantine art: Two saints

Byzantine chalice

Pendentives. Common in Byzantine architecture. Click image to see larger one.

Sunknow
October 17, 2004 - 03:19 pm
Slightly off topic here, but if anyone is interested in the Medici family...The Learning Channel has a program on tonight at 8 p.m. and 11 p.m.

"The Mummy Detective: The Medici family is resurrected in "Crypt of the Medici". (A team of specialists, including mummy expert Dr. Bob Brier, dig up Italy's revered family to find out what really killed them. Modern forensic tools are used to help discover the truth", according to the Dallas News TV Guide.

Civilization never tires of searching for the truth, especially when digging up someone else's bones.

Might be an interesting program.

Sun

robert b. iadeluca
October 17, 2004 - 04:13 pm
"Not till Justinian did the Greek, Roman, Oriental, and Christian factors complete their fusion into Byzantine art. The Nika revolt gave him, like another Nero, an opportunity to rebuild his capital. In the ecstasy of a moment's freedom the mob had burned down the Senate House, the Baths of Zeuxippus, the porticoes of the Augusteum, a wing of the imperial palace, and St. Sophia, cathedral of the patriarch.

"Justinian might have rebuilt these on their old plans and within a year or two. Instad he resolved to spend more time, money, and men, make his capital more beautiful than Rome, and raise a church that would outshine all other edifices on the earth.

"He began now one of the most ambitious building programs in history:-fortresses, palaces, monasteries, churches, porticoes, and gates rose throughout the empire. In Constantinople he rebuilt the Senate House in white marble -- and the Baths of Zeuxippus in polychrome marble -- raised a marble portico and promenade in the Augusteum -- and brought fresh water to the city in a new aqueduct that rivaled Italy's best.

"He made his own palace the acme of splendor and luxury -- its floors and walls were of marble -- its ceilings recounted in mosaic brilliance the triumphs of his reign -- and showed the senators 'in festal mood, bestowing upon the Emperor honors almost divine.'

"And across the Bosporus, near Chalcedon, he built, as a summer residence for Theodora and her court, the palatial villa of Herion, equipped with its own harbor, forum, church, and baths.

"Forty days after the Nika revolt had subsided, he began a new St. Sophia -- dedicated not to any saint of that name, but to the Hagia Sophia, the Holy Wisdom, or Creative Logos, of God Himself. From Tralles in Asia Minor, and from Ionian Miletus, he summoned Anthemius and Isidore, the most famous of living architects, to plan and superintend the work. Abandoning the traditional basilican form, they conceived a design whose center would be a spacious dome resting not on walls but on massive piers, and buttressed by a half dome at either end.

"Ten thousand workmen were engaged -- 320,000 pounds of gold ($134,000,000) were spent on the enterprise -- quite emptying the treasury. Provincial governors were directed to send to the new shrine the finest relics of ancient monuments. Marbles of a dozen kinds and tints were imported from a dozen areas. Gold, silver, ivory, and precious stones were poured into decoration.

"Justinian himself shared busily in the design and the construction, and took no small part (his scornful adulator tells us) in solving technical problems. Dressed in white linen, with a staff in his hand and a kerchief on his head, he haunted the operation day after day, encouraging the workers to complete their tasks competently and on time.

"In five years and ten months the edifice was complete and on December 26, 537, the Emperor and the Patriarch Menas led a solemn inaugural procession to the resplendoent cathedral.

"Justinian walked alone to the pulpit, and lifting up his hands, cried out:-'Glory be to God who has thought me worthy to accomplish so great a work! O Solomon! I have vanquished you!'"

Justinian's constant following up in this endeavor reminds me of that Pope (I forget his name) who personally and impatiently followed up on Michelangelo's completion of the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 17, 2004 - 04:27 pm
How many years in various cathedrals I have seen these triangular supports not knowing they were called pendentives. I am learning so much here. Architectural school, here I come!

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 17, 2004 - 04:36 pm
I keep looking at this PHOTO and saying to myself -- "Built 2000 years ago" -- Amazing!!

Robby

ALF
October 17, 2004 - 04:51 pm
These photos are wonderful and it does push those buttons to study their beauty, doesn't it?

robert b. iadeluca
October 17, 2004 - 05:32 pm
"St. Sophia was at once the inauguration and the culmination of the Byzantine style. Men everywhere spoke of it as 'the Great Church' and even the skeptical Procopius wrote of it with awe. 'When one enters this building to pray, he feels that it is not the work of human power. The soul, lifting itself to the sky, realizes that here God is close by, and that He takes delight in this, His chosen home.'

"St. Sophia was Justinian's supreme achievement, more lasting than his conquests or his laws. But Procopius describes twenty-four other churches built or rebuilt by him in the capital, and remarks:-'If you should see one of them by itself you would suppose that the Emperor had built this work only, and had spent the whole time of his reign on this one alone.'

"Throughout the Empire this fury of construction raged until Justinian's death. That sixth century which marked the beginning of the Dark Ages in the West was in the East one of the richest epochs in architectural history.

"In Epheus, Antioch, Gaza, Jerusalem, Alexandria, Salonika, Ravenna, Rome, and from Crimean Kerch to African Sfax, a thousand churches celebrated the triumph both of Christianity over paganism and of the Oriental-Byzantine over the Greco-Roman style.

"External columns, architraves, pediments, and friezes made way for the vault, the pendentive, and the dome. Syria had a veritable renaissance in the fourth, fifth, and sixth centuries. Her schools at Antioch, Berytus (Beirut), Edessa, and Nisibis poured forth orators, lawyers, historians, and heretics.

"Her artisans excelled in mosaics, textiles, and all decorative arts. Her architects raised a hundred churches. Her sculptors adorned them with lavish reliefs."

I cannot read all this without a feeling of humility. We, in the Western Civilization, are a product of the Dark Ages. Something in our history, as I see it, causes us to believe that we have become the enlightened ones, completely ignoring -- or being absolutely unaware of -- the bright lights that were already shining in the East over a millennia ago.

We are not yet ready to get onto the topic of Islam but I am beginning to understand why those in the East consider those in the West so arrogant. Imagine if every Western leader was required to read "Our Oriental Heritage" before being appointed or elected to his post.

Robby

Justin
October 17, 2004 - 09:35 pm
The function of a pendative may be seen if one constructs a square and overlays a circle so it coincides with four sides of the square. It will be seen that in each of the four corners there is an unsuported area. The pendative, a concave, spherical, triangle of the right dimensions completely fills this gap and makes it possible to support a large heavy dome. Pendatives may be seen in Hagia Sofia, Galla Placidia, and St. Peter's in Rome, but there are also pendative supported domes in some modern buildings.

JoanK
October 18, 2004 - 01:34 am
JUSTIN: The mosaics we have seen in these pictures are wonderful. Was this an Eastern art form, or did the Romans also have mosaics? I don't remember seeing them.

JoanK
October 18, 2004 - 01:35 am
Yes, ROBBY I agree. I've always thought of that period as "the dark ages" too, completely unaware of this flourishing culture.

robert b. iadeluca
October 18, 2004 - 02:27 am
The Persians

224-641

robert b. iadeluca
October 18, 2004 - 02:52 am
"Beyond the Euphrates or the Tigris, through all the history of Greece and Rome, lay that almost secret empire which for a thousand years had stood off expanding Europe and Asiatic hordes, never forgetting its Achaemenid glory, slowly recuperating from its Parthian wars, and so proudly maintaining its unique and aristocratic culture under its virile Sasanian monarchs, that it would transform the Islamic conquest of Iran into a Persian Renaissance.

"Iran meant more, in our third century, than Iran or Persia today. It was by its very name the land of the 'Aryans,' and included Afghanistan, Baluchistan, Sogdiana, and Balkh, as well as Iraq. 'Persia,' anciently the name of the modern province of Fars, was but a southeastern fraction of this empire. The Greeks and Romans, careless about 'barbarians,' gave the name of a part to the whole.

"Through the center of Iran, from Himalayan southeast to Causasian northwest, ran a mountainous dividing barrier. To the east was an arid lofty plateau. To the west lay the green valleys of the twin rivers, whose periodic overflow ran into a labyrinth of canals, and made Western Persia rich in wheat and dates, vines, and fruits.

"Between or along the rivers, or hiding in the hills, or hugging desert oases, were a myriad villages, a thousand towns, a hundred cities:- Ecbatana, Rai, Mosul, Istakhr (once Persepolis), Susa, Seleucia, and magnificent Cresiphon, seat of the Sasanian kings.

"Ammianus describes the Persians of this period as 'almost all slender, somewhat dark, with not uncomely beards, and long shaggy hair.' The upper classes were not shaggy, nor always slender, often handsome, proud of bearing, and of an easy grace, with a flair for dangerous sports and splendid dress.

"Men covered their heads with turbans, their legs with baggy trousers, their feet with sandals or laced boots. The rich wore coats or tunics of wool and silk, and girt themselves with belt and sword. The poor resigned themselves to garments of cotton, hair, or skins. The women dressed in boots and breeches, loose shirts and cloaks and flowing robes -- curled their black hair into a coil in front, let it hang behind, and brightened it with flowers.

"All classes loved color and ornament. Priests and zealous Zoroastrians affected white cotton clothing as a symbol of purity. Generals preferred red. Kings distinguished themselves with red shoes, blue trousers, and a heaaddress topped with an inflated ball or the head of a beast or a bird.

"In Persia, as in all civilized societies, clothes made half the man, and slightly more of the woman."

Names and appearances of these ancient people and cities now begin to have an air of familiarity -- Mosul, Susa -- white cotton clothing, turbans. Our TV screens and the words of Durant touch each other.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
October 18, 2004 - 07:14 am
Below is a link to a Bible atlas, including a map of the Persian Empire. Click small image to see a larger map.

Bible Atlas

Éloïse De Pelteau
October 18, 2004 - 08:18 am
It does seem like if time had stopped sometimes when we have television to give us images of lands in the Middle East. In fact what is only a few thousand years, in reality is only a minute part of Time. Struggles and differences in theology, politics and gender barely make a ripple in the overall scheme of things. We are so insignificant when I think of it.

Especially after looking at Mal's Bible Atlas how empires expanded and shrunk in just a millennium or two. We are nothing in all of this.

Eloïse

Malryn (Mal)
October 18, 2004 - 09:26 am
Chronology of Persian History

Malryn (Mal)
October 18, 2004 - 10:03 am
The link below takes you to a picture of the interior of the Vang Cathedral, Esfahan. It is only one of several pictures of Churches of Iran found on the www.farsinet.com website. Click the right arrow to see more.

Interior of Vang Cathedral

Justin
October 18, 2004 - 03:32 pm
The Byzantine images you have seen are Roman. Late Roman. If you ask Justinian who is based in Constantinople, he will tell you he is the Roman emperor. Moreover, he combined east and west in Ravenna but there is so little of interest in Rome these days, just the Papacy, that Justinian and Theodora are focused primarily in the east.

Mosaics were common in Rome. Many Roman floors were laid in terrazzo with decoration in a variety of subjects. In Herculaneum, floors of public houses have been uncovered with pleasantly, interesting, subjects embedded for all time.

The flat two dimensional image (you will see more and more of it) is an eastern development. Greek characteristics in art and architecture have been disappearing gradually. Sculpture in the round gave way first to relief sculpture. Generalized but custom forms gave way to portraiture on generalized bodies. The two dimensional mosaic surfaces encouraged two dimensional (flat) painting. Almost all the art work in this period was devoted to the church's message and it was accomplished in many cases by monks.

robert b. iadeluca
October 18, 2004 - 04:01 pm
"The typical educated Persian was Gallicanly impulsive, enthusiastic, and mercurial -- often indolent, but quickly alert -- given to 'mad and extravagant talk. rather crafty than courageous, and to be feared only at long range' -- which was where they kept their enemies.

"The poor drank beer but nearly all classes, includng the gods, preferred wine. The pious and thrifty Persians poured it out in religious ritual, waited a reasonable time for the gods to come and drink, then drank the sacred beverage themselves.

"Persian manners, in this Sasanian period, are described as coarser than in the Achaemenid, more refined then in the Parthian. But the narratives of Procopius leave us with the impression that the Persians continued to be better gentlemen than the Greeks. The ceremonies and diplomatic forms of the Persian court were in large measure adopted by the Greek emperors. The rival sovereigns addressed each other as 'brother,' provided immunity and safe-conducts for foreign diplomats, and exempted them from customs searches and dues.

"The conventions of European and American diplomacy may be traced to the courts of the Persian kings.

"Pederasty and prostituion were less frequent among them than among the Greeks. Rabbi Gamaliel praised the Persians for three qualities:-'They are tempeate in eating, modest in the privy and in marital relations.'

"Every influence was used to stimulate marriage and the birth rate, in order that man power should suffice in war. In this aspect Mars, not Venus, is the god of love. Religion enjoined marriage, celebrated it with awesome rites, and taught that fertility strengthened Ormuzd, the god of light, in his cosmic conflict with Ahriman, the Satan of the Zorosastrian creed.

"The head of the household practiced ancestor worship at the family health, and sought offspring to ensure his own later cult and care. If no son was born to him, he adopted one.

"Parents generally arranged the marriage of their children, often with the aid of a professional matrimonial agent. A woman might marry against the wishes of her parents. Dowries and marriage settlements financed early marriage and parentage.

"Polygamy was allowed, and was recommended where the first wife proved barren. Adultery flourished. The husband might divorce his wife for infidelity. The wife might divorce her husband for desertion and cruelty. Concubines wer permiteed. Like the ancient Greek hetairai, these concuines were free to move about in public, and to attend the banquets of the men. Legal wives were usually kept in private apartments in the home. This old Persian custom was bequeathed to Islam.

"Persian women were eceptionally beautiful, and perhaps men had to be guarded from them. In the Shahnama of Firdausi, it is the women who yearn and take the initiative in courtship and seduction.

"Feminine charms overcame masculine laws."

Any comments about ancient Persian customs?

Robby

Justin
October 18, 2004 - 04:03 pm
Mal: The chronology of Persian history makes me realize how little I know of the Persians.The names are unfamiliar. The writing is unfamilar. The events are unfamiliar. I recognize names like Tamerlane, the Shah Pahlavi,the Ayatolla, Mossadech. But little else is at all familiar. And here we are fighting a war in Afghanistan and Irag. We must be nuts to have invaded an area of the world so unfamilar.

robert b. iadeluca
October 18, 2004 - 05:11 pm
This interesting article tells us about the POWER OF PERSIAN WOMEN.

Robby

Fifi le Beau
October 18, 2004 - 07:41 pm
The interior of Vang Cathedral is an explosion on the senses. There does not seem to be an inch of space that is not covered in some bright color or design.

Durant says, "Never before had an art been so rich in color, so subtle in symbolism, so exuberant in decoration, so well adapted to quiet the intellect and stir the soul."

Exuberant yes, subtle no. It would have inflamed my senses and quieted my soul. I speak only for myself and not others. The interior of Vang Cathedral would have kept me so busy trying to figure out what all this decoration meant, if anything, and the many types of materials used to create such an explosion of color and design. I'm afraid I would not have heard a word the priest said, even if I could have espied him against this backdrop.

Fifi

Justin
October 18, 2004 - 11:36 pm
I had not seen the interior of Vang Cathedral prior to this exposure but I agree, the priest and his vestments could be lost in a color maze. The symbolism is not so subtle as Durant leads us to believe. An image of the crucifixion as well as an image of the Ascension of Mary, the Mother of Jesus, are in easy view of Mass attendees (assuming they are not hidden behind a choir screen). The pulpit is a baldochino, with dome and lantern. It's colors do not complement one another and might tend to hide someone speaking from its platform.

Some of the arches shown are broken and pointed as in Gothic work and others, particularly the outside arches are Romanesque in design. Carpets and wool tapestry cover the floors and some of the walls. That is an eastern characteristic. One of the tapistries bears the iconography of Leonardo from the Italian quatrocento-The Last Supper.

Bubble
October 19, 2004 - 01:35 am
The ceiling of that Vang cathedral shows exactly the same art, coloring, etc. found in the Persian ceramics sold even today in Teheran (is that the current name?) markets. The Armenians use the same inspiration but it seems coarser than the almost filigrane work of those stylized flowers in white blue and black.

JoanK
October 19, 2004 - 01:38 am
The pieces of it individually are stunning. It's the overall effect that is overwhelming.

robert b. iadeluca
October 19, 2004 - 02:43 am
"Persian children were reared with the help of religious belief, which seems indispensable to parental authority. They amused themselves with ball games, athletics, and chess and at an early age joined in their elders's pastimes -- archery,m horse racing, polo, and the hunt.

"Every Sasanian found music necessary to the operations of religion, love, and war. Lyre, guitar, flute, pipe, horn, drum, and other instruments abounded. Tradition avers that Khosru Parvez' favorite singer, Barbad, composed 360 songs, and sang them to his royal patron, one each night for a year.

"In education, too, religion played a major part. Primary schools were situated on temple grounds and were taught by priests. Higher education in literature, medicine, science, and philosophy was provided in the celebrated academy at June-i-Shapur in Suisiana.

"The sons of feudal chiefs and provincial satraps often lived near the king and were instructed with the princes of the royal family in a college attached to the court.

"Pahlavi, the Indo-European language of Parthian Persia, continued in use. Of its literature in this age only some 600,000 words survive, nearly all dealinbg wwith religion. We know that it was extensive. As the priests were its guardians and transmitters, they allowed most of the secular material to perish. (A like process may have deluded us as to the overewhelmingly religious character of early medieval literature in Christendom.)

"The Sasanian kings were enlightened patrons of letters and philosophy -- Khosru Anushirvan above all. He had Plato and Aristotle translated into Pahlavi, had them taught at Jund-i-Shapur, and even read them himself. During his reign many historical annals were compiled, of which the sole survivor is the Karnamak-i-Artakhshatr, or Deeds of Ardashir, a mixture of history and romance that served Firdausi as the basis of his Shahnama.

"When Justinian closed the schools of Athens seven of their professors fled to Persia and found refuge at Khosru's court. In time they grew homesick and in his treaty of 533 with Justinian, the 'barbarian' king stipulated that the Greek sages should be aalllowed to return, and be free from persicution."

Apparently even in those ancient days, Christendom considered those of oriental heritage to be barbarians. Ignorance of this Eastern enlightened culture continues.

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
October 19, 2004 - 03:21 am
Fifi: "The interior of Vang Cathedral is an explosion on the senses" If I were in that cathedral my eyes would burst into song with the beauty of it. Thanks Mal for showing it.

If the West would/could learn some Eastern languages, it would be a start in understanding the Eastern culture, but that would take an enormous amount of determination and the powerful West is not about to make the effort. As the world is becoming more secular, the dwindling priests are no longer the transmitter of knowledge.

Eloïse

robert b. iadeluca
October 19, 2004 - 03:38 am
Here is an excellent article on the current state of ARABIC LANGUAGE TRAINING IN THE UNITED STATES.

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
October 19, 2004 - 05:52 am
In the link above, "The mental challenge of learning Arabic may be much more fundamental. “The single most difficult aspect of learning Arabic is the mindset,” noted Anne Shroeder. “The mode of expressing oneself is so very different, I find, that it requires a restructuring of one's brain to be able to adequately communicate. Every language involves a cultural and mental adjustment to some extent, but the adjustment for Arabic is so much greater than for European languages that even with immersion it takes enormous energy to work with".

More student enrollment in Arabic languages being taught in the US is a good omen, no effort should be spared and no funds too great in pursuing this crucial goal. The brain can adjust to the learning of several languages and why not Arabic.

Eloïse

Bubble
October 19, 2004 - 09:07 am
Learning Hebrew which is a semitic language was a challenge that I partly overcame: I am fluent and have a good command of the language and colloquisms, but for the life of me I would never spell it correctly and reading is a wrestling effort that I prefer not to meet, except for short notes, bills and wrapping on goods from the supermarket.

On three occasions I tried seriously to learn spoken Arabic, once in a sponsered course for immigrants and twice on TV with a beginners course. The sounds are so difficult to "hear" and reproduce that I never went very far with my projects. For me the structure of the sentences and the mindset was not the problem.

Scrawler
October 19, 2004 - 09:57 am
The walnut's history goes back to ancient Persia, where the two-lobed seed was so rare and so highly valued that it once served as currency. Cultivation of the nut has been traced from Persia to Carthage to Rome, then throughout Europe and to the New World.

Indigenous to Persia and Syria, the pale yellow-green pistachio - pistach in ancient Persian - was widely cultivated throughout the Near East, and its trees were planted in the royal gardens of Babylonia during the eighth century BC. The nut was exploited for its oil, as well as being eaten fresh and used in Persian confections.

Justin
October 19, 2004 - 03:12 pm
Religion and education of the young have been hand in hand since the days of Marduk. Young minds accept wild ideas with ease. That's why fairy tales are so popular. The young child accept's Santa Claus with wide eyes. The wild tales of religion can be pored into open heads with ease. The modern world continues to suffer from the effects of this practice. Fortunately, two things were done to keep us all out of silly land. First, religious teaching had to be coupled with mathematics,language, and logic to make it acceptable and second the public school system (except in the UK) forced the religious schools to conform with a broader curriclum.

Eloise: I haven't seen the data but I think you are correct in thinking that the number of priests in the US and perhaps in Canada is dwindling. I'm not sure about the rest of the world. I also think, but am not certain, that the population of Protestant ministers, particularly, the evangelical variety, is growing. Television huckstering has made many recognize the salary benefits in pitching religious ideas to ready minds. Several TV hucksters have not only opened elementary and high schools but also have chartered colleges and unversities.

Bubble; How goes the population of Rabbis? I think that women have assumed Rabinical roles in recent years.

Mahlia: Is Islam growing or are we just becoming aware of it's immense size and therefore think it is growing?

I was, for a time, close to an Iranian chap who said he was a Zoroastrian but that he did not practice. He went home to marry and has not yet returned. I miss discussions with him.

robert b. iadeluca
October 19, 2004 - 04:13 pm
"Under this enlightened monarch the college of Jund-i-Shapur, which had been founded in the fourth or fifth century, became 'the greatest intellectual center of the time.' Students and teachers came to it from every quarter of the world.

"Nestorian Christians were received there, and brought Syriac translations of Greek works in medicine and philosophy. Neoplatonists there planted the seeds of Sufi mysticism.

"There the medical lore of India, Persia, Syria, and Greece mingled to produce a flourishing school of therapy.

"In Persian theory disease resulted from contamination and impurity of one or more of the four elements -- fire, water, earth, and air. Public health, said Persian physicians and priests, required the burning of all putrefying matter, and individual health demanded strict obedience to the Zoroastrian code of cleanliness.

"Of Persian astronomy in this period we only know that it maintained an orderly calendar, divided the year into twelve months of thirty days, each month into two seven-day and two eight-day weeks, and added five intercalary days at the end of the year.

"Astrology and magic were universal. No imporant step was taken without reference to the status of the constellations.

"Every earthly career, men believed, was determined by the good and evil stars that fought in the sky -- as angels and demons fought in the human soul -- the ancient war of Ormuzd and Ahriman."

Robby

3kings
October 19, 2004 - 05:03 pm
JUSTIN The number of recruits to the Catholic priesthood in Australia and New Zealand has been falling for many years. The Catholic schools that were once staffed by Nuns and Teaching Brothers now have mostly lay teachers running them, and in NZ they are financed mostly by the Government. They are indistinguishable from normal State schools.

As for the Priesthood, their numbers are falling, and efforts are being made to bring Priests here from Ireland and Poland, where the Church is still very active. == Trevor

JoanK
October 19, 2004 - 05:36 pm
SEA BUBBLE: as you know, I studied modern Hebrew in Israel, and many years later after I returned I studied Biblical Hebrew. I didn't find modern Hebrew that different in thought pattern and concepts from English, I assumed because most of the people I knew had learned it as a second language, and were speaking it as if it was their mother tongue. Biblical Hebrew is quite different in structure, and I thought more difficult.

I can't spell in Hebrew either, but I can't spell in English either, so that didn't surprise me. And my pronounciation was terrible, but I suspect that would be true in French as well. The different alphabet and lack of vowels were the biggest obstacle.

Justin
October 19, 2004 - 05:39 pm
Trevor: That's an interesting concept. Do the religious schools, though funded by the government, continue to indoctrinate the young in their peculiar brand of belief? Is there no concern for separation of church and state?

Justin
October 19, 2004 - 05:56 pm
Emphasis on cleanliness put the Persians in the van of medicine and in the forefront of asceptic technique. Too bad they were unable to pass it on to Europeans. I wonder if the Greeks washed their hands when they penetrated the skull of patients. Sterile technique is with us today but where did it come from. Walt Whitman, who was a medical corps assistant in the American Civil War, talks about amputating limbs with dirt and blood soaked hands.Maybe it was Lister who brought us a sterile O.R. Are there any nurses or doctors in this group with a handle on medical history?

JoanK
October 19, 2004 - 06:00 pm
I do know that Florence Nightingale in the Crimean war (1850s?) and after fought a battle to keep sickrooms clean: washing hands and keeping slop pails covered so flies wouldn't go from them to the patients wounds.

robert b. iadeluca
October 19, 2004 - 06:23 pm
All you ever wanted to know but were afraid to ask about the Persian cure for ERECTILE DYSFUNCTION. You thought Viagra was the first medicine to "solve" this problem?

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
October 19, 2004 - 06:36 pm
Jules Émile Péan the precurser of asepsis, a Pasteur contemporary. I am sorry I could not find an English site for this. I had heard that asceptic techniques was first used in France and searched it in Google.

3kings
October 20, 2004 - 12:33 am
JUSTIN In NZ there have always been non Catholic students attending Catholic schools, possibly because of convenience. Those students were, and are not now, required to take any religious classes should they not wish to.

About 20-30 years ago the Catholic Church found that it had insufficient funds and teaching staff to keep all their schools open, and threatened to close them.

As a compromise the State agreed to fully fund all Catholic schools, and pay for all the teachers, books etc. required. For instance, my BIL, who is a Catholic Teaching Brother is paid by the State, but he hands his salary over to the Church and receives his keep in return.

For those pupils who want religious studies, there are periods set aside, for the rest of the school day all pupils are taught the state approved curriculum.

I do not know the figures, but I would not be surprised if there were as many non Catholics,( or non practicing Catholics) attending those schools, as Catholics.

The State ideal of Education being secular, is as it were, softened in these schools. They thought it best to emphasize the Free and Compulsory bits, and not get too hung up on the Secular. ++ Trevor

Bubble
October 20, 2004 - 02:58 am
Many of the natural food thought to help impotance in Robby's URL, are still recommended today in Turkey as aphrodisiacs: all the nuts, caviar, etc. They are found in the pre-nuptial meal to the groom.

Joan, the absence of vowels in Hebrew is the obstacle for anyone not born to that language. Reading becomes a guessing game. The turn of sentences in Biblical Hebrew is not that different from the emphatic sentences of great classical French writers. Of course nowadays writers talk and write in a more subdue way in both languages.

Justin, every religious scholar in yeshiva is a potential rabbi. He could act as rabbi in any sunagogue as long as he was over 13 years of age.

As for women rabbis, they are only recognized by the reformists, the other movements would never accept them, even at prayers at the Wailing Wall.
Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
October 20, 2004 - 03:33 am
"The Zoroastrian religion was restored to authority and affluence by the Sasanian dynasty. Lands and tithes were assigned to the priests. Government was founded on religion, as in Europe. An archimagus, second only to the king in power, headed an omnipresent hereditary priestly cast of Magi, who controlled nearly all the intellectual life of Persia, frightened sinners and rebels with threats of hell, and kept the Persian mind and masses in bondage for four centuries.

"Now and then they protected the citizen against the taxgatherer, and the poor against oppression. The Magian organization was so rich that kings sometimes borrowed great sums from the temple treasuries.

"Every important town had a fire temple in which a sacred flame, supposedly inextinguishable, symbolized the god of light. Only a life of virtue and ritual cleanliness could save the soul from the Ahriman. In the battle against that devil it was vital to have the aid of the Magi and their magic -- their divinations, incantations, sorceries, and prayers.

"So helped, the soul would attain holiness and purity, pass the awful assize of the Last Judgment, and enjoy everlasting happiness in paradise.

"Around this official faith other religions found modest room. Mithras, the sun god so popular with the Parthians, received a minor worship as chief helper of Ormuzd.The Zoroastrian priests, like the Christians, Moslems, and Jews, made persistent apostasy from the national creed a capital crime.

"When Mani (c.216-76), claiming to be a fourth divine messenger in the line of Buddha, Zoroaster, and Jesus, announced a religion of celibacy, pacifism, and quietism, the militant and nationalist Magi had him cricified. Manicheism had to seek its main success abroad. To Judaism and Christianity, however, the Sasanian priests and kings were generally tolerant, much as the popes were more lenient with Jews than with heretics.

"A large number of Jews found asylum in the western provinces of the Persian Empire. Christianity was alrady established there when the Sasanians came to power. It was tolerated until it became the official faith of Persia's immemorial enemies, Greece and Rome.

"It was persecuted after its clergy, as at Nisibis in 338, took an active part in the defense of Byzantine territory against Shapur II, and the Christians in Persia revealed their natural hopes for a Byzantine victory. In 341 Shapur ordered the massacre of all Christians in his Empire. Entire villages of Christians were being slaughtered when he restricted the proscription to priests, monks, and nuns. Even so 16,000 Christians died in a persecution that lasted until Shapur's death (379). Yezdegird I (399-420) restored religious freedom to the Christians and helped them rebuild their churches.

"In 422 a council of Persian bishops made the Persian Christian Church independent of both Greek and roman Christianity."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 20, 2004 - 03:40 am
Here are some facts about the ZOROASTRIAN RELIGION. The concepts here are described as very easy to understand and, indeed, they are. The three fundamental tenets are Good Thoughts -- Good Words -- Good Deeds.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 20, 2004 - 03:50 am
Here is THUS SPAKE ZARATHUSTRA by Friedrich Nietzsche. Reading just the short Prologue is enlightening. Zarathustra is tired of receiving and is ready to give.

"I am weary of my wisdom, like the bee that hath gathered too much honey. I need hands outstretched to take it. I would fain bestow and distribute!"

I wonder. Is there a message here for those of us at a Senior age?

Robby

ALF
October 20, 2004 - 05:07 am
That's a very potent consideration Robby.

I wish there was more emphasis put on the imparting of wisdom, in just this way.

ALF
October 20, 2004 - 05:13 am
HUMATA (Good Thoughts)

HUKTA (Good Words)

HUVARASHTA (Good Deeds)

These principal characteristics of the religion taught by Zarathushtra are a diffuse combination of what each of us should attain.

Scrawler
October 20, 2004 - 09:12 am
Prior to the 1840s, patients sang hymns, bit a bullet, got drunk or took opium to distract themselves from the pain of surgery. Amputations were performed in as little as 40 seconds. "Laughing gas" was first used as a form of entertainment at parties before it was used in dentistry around 1844. Ether was introduced in 1846 and chloroform, the anesthetic of chice among European and Civil War surgeons, followed in 1848.

Justin
October 20, 2004 - 01:24 pm
Thus Spake Zarathustra is not about Zoroastria. It is a work by Nietzsche in which he challenges the accepted moral thinking habits of the world. Nietzsche, in philosophy, stands on the obverse of Kirkegaard, who came down on the side of religion. Nietzsche on the other hand takes the position the GOd is dead.

robert b. iadeluca
October 20, 2004 - 04:22 pm
It was my understanding, Justin, that they CLICK HERE were one and the same.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 20, 2004 - 04:32 pm
"Within the framework of religious worship and dispute, governmental edicts and crises, civil and foreign wars, the people impatiently provided the sinews of state and church, tilling the soil, pasturing flocks, practicing handicrafts, arguing trade. Agriculture was made a religious duty -- to clear the wilderness -- cultivate the earth -- eradicate pests and weeds -- reclaim waste lands -- harness the streams to irrigate the land -- these heroic labors, the people were told, ensured the final victory of Ormuzd over Ahriman.

"Much spiritual solace was needed by the Persian peasant, for usually he toiled as tenant for a feudal lord, and paid from a sixth to a third of his crops in taxes and dues.

"About 540 the Persians took from India the art of making sugar from the cane. The Greek Emperor Heraclius found a treasury of sugar in the royal palace at Cresiphon (627). The Arabs, conquering Persia fourteen years later, soon learned to cultivate the plant, and introduced it into Egypt, Sicily, Morocco, and Spain, whence it sprad through Europe.

"Animal husbandry was a Persian forte. Persian horses were second only to Arab steeds in pedigree, spirit, beauty, and speed. Evry Persian loved a horse as Rustam loved Rakush.

"The dog was so useful in guarding flocks and homes that the Persians made him a sacred animal. The Persian cat acquired distinction universally."

Robby

Justin
October 20, 2004 - 06:10 pm
Sorry, old friend, the author of the link says, moderns have heard little of Zoroastria. Folks recall Nietzsche's work"Thus Spake Z" but that's all they know. He did not say there was any connection between N and Z other than the title of N's book. Let me give you some of N for a moment. He is fun to read. The following is from his autobio.

" I have demanded of life that it shape itself in my broken image; life is whole and I am shattered. The divine Nietzsche is not human he is merely a disembodied howl in the screaming chaos of our times. Once on Portofina Mountain divinity descended upon me and I wrote the fifth gospel of Zarathustra. I am the spectator of my own death. Only my wife Cosima can carry me back to the love of the world where Dionysos and Jesus meet at the breast of the eternal woman, the eternal delight."

Note: Cosima was the wife of Richard Wagner.

robert b. iadeluca
October 20, 2004 - 07:07 pm
Here is the STORY OF SUGAR. Scroll down part way to read the "History of Sugar."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 20, 2004 - 07:14 pm
Here is a wonderful article about PERSIAN HORSES.

Robby

MountainRose
October 20, 2004 - 10:23 pm
"God is Dead" right. It was said by a character, a madman no less, just as Hamlet said "To be or not to be", and meant nothing more in context than that the "European type of god" was dead, or the sort of understanding that the culture of Europeans had of God. I consider that statement a positive one, a sign of growth in religious belief that had grown stagnant. The old must die before the new understanding can grow and flourish. God has always died and been reborn, and continues to do so even in this day and age. This atheist author made some good points---except for his last paragraph which doesn't even sound the same as the rest of the writing. I think it was tacked on by someone else to please the audience the site is addressing. Pity. http://atheism.about.com/library/weekly/aa042600a.htm

robert b. iadeluca
October 21, 2004 - 03:06 am
"Sasan, in Persian tradition, was a priest of Persepolis. His son, Papak, was a petty prince of Khur. Papak killed Gozihr, ruler of the province of Persia, made himself king of the province, and bequeathed his power to is son, Shapur. Shapur died of a timely accident and was succceeded by his brother Ardashir.

"Artabanus V, last of the Arsacid or Parthian kings of Persia, refused to recognize this new local dynasty. Ardashir overthrew Artabanus in battle (224) and became King of Kings (226).

"He replaced the loose feudal rule of the Arsacids with a strong royal power governing through a centralized but spreading bureaucracy -- won the support of the priestly caste by restoring the Zoroastrian hierarchy and faith -- and roused the pride of the people by announcing tht he would destroy Hellenistic influence in Persia -- avenge Darius II against the heirs of Alexander -- and reconquer all the territory once held by the Achaemenid kings.

"He almost kept his word. His swift campaigns extended the boundaries of Persia to the Oxus in the northeast, and to the Euphrates in the west.

"Dying, he placed the crown on the head of his son, Shapur, and bade him drive the Greeks and Romans into the sea.

"Shapur or Sapor I (241-72) inheritd all the vigor and craft of his father. The rock reliefs represent him as a man of handsome and noble features but these reliefs were doubtless stylized compliments. He received a good education and loved learning. He was so charmed by the conversation of the Sophist Eustathius, the Greek ambassador, that he thought of resigning his throne and becoming a philosopher.

"Unlike his later namesake, he gave full freedom to all religions, allowed Mani to preach at his court and declared that 'Magi, Manicheans, Jews, Christians, and all men of whatever religion should be left undisturbed' in his Empire.

"Continuing Ardashir's redaction of the Avesta, he persuaded the priests to include in this Persian Bible secular works on metaphysics, astronomy, and medicine, mostly borrowed from India and Greece.

"He was a liberal patron of the arts. He was not as great a general as Shapur II or the two Khosrus, but he was the ablest administrator in the long Sasanian line. He built a new capital at Shapur, whose ruins still bear his name. At Shushtar, on the Karun River, he raised one of the major engineering works of antiquity -- a dam of granite blocks, forming a bridge 1710 feet long and 20 feet wide. The course of the stream was temporarily changed to allow the construction. Its bed was solidly paved and great sluice gates regulated the flow.

"Tradition says that Shapur used Roman engineers and prisoners to design and build this dam which toninued to function to our own century.

"Turning reluctantly to war, Shapur invaded Syria, reached Antioch, was defeated by a Roman army, and made a peace (244) that restored to Rome all that he had taken.

"Resenting Armenia's co-operation with Rome, he entered that country and established there a dynasty friendly to Persia (252). His right flank so protected, he resumed the war with Rome, defeated and captured the Emperor Valerian (26), sacked Antioch, and took thousands of prisoners to forced labor in Iran.

"Odenathus, governor of Palmyra, joined forces with Rome, and compelled Shapur again to resign himself to the Euphrates as the Roman-Persian frontier."

Any comments about Sasanian royalty?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 21, 2004 - 03:35 am
Here are COMMENTS about Iranian waterworks.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 21, 2004 - 03:41 am
Here is an intereesting COMPARISON of the Oxus River to the Mississippi River.

Robby

JoanK
October 21, 2004 - 03:49 am
That's very interesting. I've always been fascinated by Twain's account of the Mississippi.

robert b. iadeluca
October 21, 2004 - 03:50 am
Here is a MAP showing the location of the Oxus River (now called Amu Darya) to which Persia extended its boundaries under Ardashir.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 21, 2004 - 03:54 am
Here is a description of the AVESTA which Durant called the "Persian Bible".

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
October 21, 2004 - 05:18 am

"Zoroastrianism is the oldest of the revealed world-religions, and it has probably had more influence on mankind, directly and indirectly, than any other single faith."

- Mary Boyce, Zoroastrians: Their Religious Beliefs and Practices (London: Routledge and Kegan Paul, 1979, p. 1)


AVESTA. Zoroastrian Archives

Malryn (Mal)
October 21, 2004 - 05:22 am
Religious Timeline
Source:
http://www.avesta.org

Justin
October 21, 2004 - 03:19 pm
When we were discussing the civilization of Babylon I thought the city was located between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. Now I discover it was located much farther east, perhaps as much as 1500 miles, on Amu Darya River. If we think of the distance in terms of the Hebrews and the Babylonian captivity the distance is enormous and might cast doubt on the Hebrews or the Babylonians making the trip. Just look at the map and see that tiny speck in the west called Israel and then examine the distance to Babylon. The total distance could well be as much as 2500 miles. That is the distance from New York to Reno. It's incredible and they walked with some in chains, men, women, and children.

There was a great trek in China when the Red Chinese escaped the Nationalists by fleeing to the North in the 1930's, I think.

robert b. iadeluca
October 21, 2004 - 03:37 pm
"History makes short shrift of Hormizd II (302--9) for he maintained prosperity and peace. He went about repairing public buildings and private dwellings, especially those of the poor, all at state expense. He established a new court of justice devoted to hearing the complaints of the poor against the rich, and often presided himself.

"We do not know if these strange habits precluded his son from inheriting the throne. In any case, when Hormizd died, the nobles imprisoned his son and gave the throne to his unborn child, whom they confidiently hailed as Shapur II.

"To make matters clear they crowned the foetus by suspending the royal diadem over the mother's womb.

"With this good start Shapur II entered upon the longest reign in Asiatic history (309-79). From childhood he was trained for war. He hardened his body and will and at sixteen took the government and the field.

"Invading eastern Arabia, he laid waste a score of villages, killed thousands of captives, and led others into bondage by cords attached to their wounds.

"In 337 he renewed the war with Rome for mastery of the trade routes to the Far East, and continued it, with pacific intervals, almost until his death.

"The conversion of Rome and Armenia to Christianity gave the old struggle a new intensity, as if the gods in Homeric frenzy had joined the fray. Through forty years Shapur fought a long line of Roman emperors. Julian drove him bck to Ctesiphon, but retreated ingoriously. Jovian, outmaneuvered, was forced to a peace (363) that yielded to Shapur the Roman provinces on the Tigris, and all Armenia.

"When Shapur II died, Persia was at the height of its power and prestige and a hundred thousand acres had been improved with human blood."

An emperor with the "strange habit" of listening to the poor and repairing private dwellings has hardly a mention in history. An emperor who leads captives around with cords attached to their wounds is able to have a long reign of 79 years and dies in bed. There's a message here somewhere.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 21, 2004 - 03:47 pm
Justin:-I believe this is the Chinese "GREAT TREK" you are talking about -- 6000 miles!

Robby

Justin
October 21, 2004 - 03:49 pm
The Long March of the Chinese Red Army covered 6000 miles. Many soldiers failed to survive the trek. Israelis moved with prodding and in families. It is an incredible event.

Justin
October 21, 2004 - 03:50 pm
Thank you , Robby.

Justin
October 21, 2004 - 03:58 pm
The message is, It pays to be a hard ass. Just ask a businessman or a politician.

robert b. iadeluca
October 21, 2004 - 05:13 pm
Here is an article about the SASSANIAN DYNASTY with all sorts of links to various emperors for those who would like to keep them straight. This is the last dynasty before they were conquered by the Arabs.

Robby

Fifi le Beau
October 21, 2004 - 07:29 pm
Robby, your AVESTA link went to a site called Persian DNA. I was curious about the Club DNA and clicked on to see what it was about. It was a message board, and I came in the midst of an argument about Zoroastrianism. I read until I found the offending article that came from an Iranian news web site.

I have no idea what the DNA means on this site, as I found no explanation. I thought it might be a test of Persian-ality.

Here is the recent article.......

http://www.iranian.com/Opinion/2004/October/PR/index.html

Fifi

Traude S
October 21, 2004 - 08:39 pm
ROBBY, just stopping by briefly. I'm afraid I am too far behind to even attempt a post. The work you and the participants do here is wonderful.

Allow me to say, for the sake of good order, that the dates of death of Martin Luther and Ignatius of Loyola are reversed in the linked timeline.

Luther, who was buried in Wittenberg, died in 1546;

Loyola died in Rome in 1556.

robert b. iadeluca
October 22, 2004 - 02:49 am
"In the next century war was moved to the eastern frontier. About 425 a Turanian people known to the Greeks as Ephthalites, and mistakenly called 'White Huns,' captured the region between the Oxus and the Jaxartes. The Sasanian King Bahram V (420-38), named Gur -- 'the wild ass' -- because of his reckless hunting fears, fought them successfully. After his death they spread through fertility and war, and built an empire extending from the Caspian to the Indus, with its capital at Gurgan and its chief city at Balkh.

"They overcame and slew King Firuz (459-84) and forced King Balas (484- to pay them tribute.

"So threatened in the east, Persia was at the same time thrown into chaos by the struggle of the monarchy to maintain its authority against the nobles and the priests. Kavadh I (488-531) thought to weaken these enemies by encouraging a communist movement which had made them the chief object of its attack.

"About 490 Mazdak, a Zoroastrian priest, had proclaimed himself God-sent to preach an old creed:--that all men are born equal, that no one has any natural right to possess more than another, that property and marriage are human inventions and miserable mistakes, and that all goods and all women should be the common property of all men. His enemies claimed that he condoned theft, adultery, and incest as natural protests against property and marriage, and as legitimate approximations to utopia.

"The poor and some others heard himn gladly, but Mazdak was probably surprised to receive the approval of a king. His followers began to plunder not only the homes but the harems of the rich, and to carry off for their own uses the most illustrious and costly concubines. The outraged nobles imprisoned Kavadh, and set his brothr Djamasp upon the throne.

"After three years in the 'Castle of Oblivion' Kavadh escaped, and fled to the Ephthalites. Eager to have a dependent as the ruler of Persia, they provided him with an army, and helped him to take Ctesiphon. Djamasp abdicated, the nobles fled to their estates, and Kavadh was again King of Kings (499).

"Having made his power secure, he turned upon the communists, and put Mazdak and thousands of his followers to death. Perhaps the movement had raised the status of labor, for the decrees of the council of state were henceforth signed not only by princes and preltes but also by the heads of the major guilds.

"Kavadh ruled for another generation, fought with success against his friends bhe Ephthalites, inconclusively with Rome and, dying, left the throne to his second son Khosru, the greatest of Sasanian kings."

Anyone here believing in the philosophy of Mazdak? After all, to quote him:-'All men are born equal."

Robby

Fifi le Beau
October 22, 2004 - 10:23 am
"All men are born equal" leaves out over 50% of the population, namely women. I have never believed that birth gives equality, only the laws of the country can give some equality, but not all by any means.

The only possibility for equality is under the laws of the country of your birth. Laws that allow for equality are only equal if they are enforced equally. They are not, so therefore we are not all equal even with "equal under the law."

Fifi

Éloïse De Pelteau
October 22, 2004 - 10:46 am
"All men are born equal" Yes, but a second after birth inequality appears. The newborn baby is either male or female, black, white, red or yellow. His/her parents are either poor, rich or in-between. He/she speaks the language of power or the language of a poor country. If he/she is handicapped-even if his/her parents are rich-everything becomes unequal, even washrooms in a public place. The inequality splits even more as that person gets older. Seniors are discriminated against in society as the youth culture dominates it.

Equality in the true sense of the word is utopic. You have to be smart and fight hard to keep your place in society, if you don't, inequality brings you down to a lower level.

Equality ends at birth.

Eloïse

Justin
October 22, 2004 - 11:55 am
What is it with these Communists? First Jesus and now Mazdak is getting the message straight from the holiest one-from God. Lenin was the first to break with tradition and toss out God. His message came from a German social economist called Karl Marx.

The inequality guys got to Jesus before he could do any real harm. Mazdak, seeing women as property, thought it was ok to steal a few. Lenin put them to work as truly equal to men.

During many years the Roman Catholic Church prayed that the commies would go away not realizing they were tossing out the baby with the bath water and at the same time they relegated women to an inferior role and so aligned themselves with Mardak.

Lenin is the only Commie I know who recognized the equality of women.

Scrawler
October 22, 2004 - 12:04 pm
According to the Catholic Church, we are born in the image of God. So how can we not be equal? Yet, as we have seen even the church did not see its children as being equal. Perhaps we can safely say that we are all equal in one respect in that we are all - human!

Justin
October 22, 2004 - 04:17 pm
Every civilization we have encountered has spent it's resources on supernatural beings. We now see the Persians exhausting their assets on a God. We are about to watch the Europeans do the same thing. America, today is in conflict. Half wish to follow the Europeans into the abyss and half fight to reclaim some degree of human dignity. When man has come far enough to recognize the falaciousness of religious ideas, we will be free to advance civilization to new heights. Resources spent pursuing Gods can be spent on stem cell research and other prospective avenues that may bring man eternal life.

robert b. iadeluca
October 22, 2004 - 04:39 pm
"Khosru I ('Fair Glory' 531-79) was called Chostroes by the Greeks, Kisra by the Arabs -- the Persians added the cognomen Anushirvan ('Immortal Soul'). When his older brothers conspired to depose him, he put all his brothers to death, and all their sons but one.

"His subjects called him 'the Just', and perhaps he merited the title if we separate justice from mercy. Procopius described him as'a past master at feigning piety' and breaking his word, but Procopius was of the enemy.

"The Persian historian al-Tabari praised Khosru's 'penetration, knowledge, intelligence, courage, and prudence' and put into his mouth an inaugural speech well invented if not true.

"He completely reorganized the government, chose his aides for ability regardless of rank, and raised his son's tutor, Buzurgmihr, to be a celebratged vizier.

"He replaced untrained feudal levies with a standing army disciplined and competent. He established a more equitable system of taxation and consolidated Persian law.

"He built dams and canals to improve the water supply of the cities and the irrigation of farms. He reclaimed waste lands by giving their cultivators cattle, implements, and seed.

"He promoted commerce by the construction, repair, and protection of bridges and roads. He devoted his great energy zealously to the service of his people and the state.

"He encouraged -- compelled -- marriage on the ground that Persia needed more population to man its fields and frontiers. He persuaded bachelors to marry by dowering the wives and educating their children, with state funds. He maintained and educated orphans and poor childrne at the public expense.

"He punished apostasy with death but tolerated Christianity, even in his harem. He gathered about him philosophers, physicians, and scholars from India and Greece, and delighted to discuss with them the problems of life, government, and death.

"One discussion turned on the question:-'What is the greatest misery?' A Greek philosopher answered:-'An impoverished and imbecile old age.' A Hindu replied:-'A harassed mind in a diseased body.' Khosru's vizier won the dutiful acclaim of all by saying:-'For my part I think the extreme misery is for a man to see the end of life approaching without having practiced virtue.'

"Khosru suppported literature, science, and scholarship with substantial subsidies, and financed many translations and histories in his reign. The university at Jund-i-Shapur reached the apogee.

"He so guarded the safety of foreigners that his court was always crowded with distinguished visitors from abroad."

What do you folks think is the "greatest misery?"

Robby

moxiect
October 22, 2004 - 06:31 pm


Robby you asked

"What do you folks think is the "greatest misery?"

Man's inhumanity to Man

MountainRose
October 22, 2004 - 10:48 pm
"Lenin is the only Commie I know who recognized the equality of women." Before I would agree to that I'd sure like to talk to some women who lived in the time of Lenin.

Bubble
October 23, 2004 - 02:07 am
Robby you asked

"What do you folks think is the "greatest misery?"

Live while able to see the surrounding misery and not able to alliviate it.

robert b. iadeluca
October 23, 2004 - 03:01 am
This ARTICLE in this morning's NY Times is relevant as we continue to discuss Faith. In your reactions, you are asked not to mention names in the news.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 23, 2004 - 03:33 am
Here are some QUOTES ABOUT FAITH. Choose your favorites.

Robby

Bubble
October 23, 2004 - 04:10 am
It is hard to chose from so many. But in these I believe:

The only faith that wears well and holds its color in all weathers is that which is woven of conviction and set with the sharp mordant of experience. Author: James Russell Lowell

Believe in yourself! Have faith in your abilities! Without a humble but reasonable confidence in your own powers you cannot be successful or happy. Author: Norman Vincent Peale

Treat the other man's faith gently; it is all he has to believe with. His mind was created for his own thoughts, not yours or mine. Author: Henry S Haskins

Malryn (Mal)
October 23, 2004 - 09:25 am
Here's one I don't agree with:
"Faith is a higher faculty than reason."
My computer dictionary gives this definition of faith:
"Faith: ~ Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence."
I believe in mind over matter to a certain extent as far as my life is concerned, but even Mohammed could not make the mountain come to him.

Mal

HubertPaul
October 23, 2004 - 10:34 am
Mal:".....I believe in mind over matter to a certain extent as far as my life is concerned, but even Mohammed could not make the mountain come to him."

You don't know that. Mind over matter )

Malryn (Mal)
October 23, 2004 - 10:41 am
"Mahomet made the people believe that he would call a hill to him, and from the top of it offer up his prayers for the observers of his law. The people assembled; Mahomet called the hill to come to him, again and again, and when the hill stood still, he was never a whit abashed, but said, 'If the hill will not come to Mahomet, Mahomet will go to the hill.' "

winsum
October 23, 2004 - 11:15 am
if one is thinking of something other than a personal one then personal philosphy can play, but on an individual level, I like this quote. It goes with aging and the golden years which are more like lead.

"A harassed mind in a diseased body"

Just look at all the problems of health we discuss here at seniornet. There are very active minds here and most of us have physical problems which interfere with our enjoyment of them.

Scrawler
October 23, 2004 - 11:48 am
I believe for me the greatest misery is to watch someone you love suffer in pain for a long period of time and then die in misery. And realize that you can do little or nothing about it.

Justin: I agree with you about stem cell research, but do you really want to live forever?

Justin
October 23, 2004 - 11:54 am
I found two useful quotes. "Believe in yourself. Have faith in your abilities." Peale

"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there is one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded faith." Jefferson

winsum
October 23, 2004 - 12:04 pm
good posts. . . . claire

robert b. iadeluca
October 23, 2004 - 01:13 pm
Question:-Can PRAYER AFFECT HEALTH?

What is your reaction to this research?

Robby

Bubble
October 23, 2004 - 01:36 pm
IMO Anything you really believe in can have a beneficial effect on your health, be it the power of prayer, faith in you particular doctor, the love of someone near or even the belief you will overcome, no matter what. All this can do wonders, almost move mountains.

If one really believes in the power of interceptional prayers, why, sure it boosts one's strength and belief in a cure. Being optimistic also helps...

Traude S
October 23, 2004 - 01:59 pm
There are half a dozen definitions for "faith", and the term in the religious sense is only one of them.

Faith has other meanings, e.g. confidence and trust in people and one's own abilities;

confidence in the provability of hypothetical mathematical and scientific theorems;

faith in a code of ethics and standards of merit;

loyalty and fidelity to a loved one expressed in promises, oaths and allegiances, foremost to one's country.

It is my opinion that faith - understood in the religious sense - is personal and, for me, undebatable. Indeed, personal opinions regarding one's religious faith are not (and should not be) applicable to every living soul on the planet.

Of the linked quotes, I like the one attributed to Blaise Pascal best, "In faith there is enough light for those who want to believe and enough shadows to blind those who don't."

Regarding the greatest misery:

there are many miseries. The superlative is always a little hard for me (who was taught eons ago to be careful in its use - a lesson that "took"). I will limit myself to mentioning one only "misery" : insensitivity to anything that does not concern and is not directly profitable for the self.

robert b. iadeluca
October 23, 2004 - 02:27 pm
Lots of great postings here today!

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
October 23, 2004 - 02:44 pm
Misery is what we see on TV that can't happen here. Misery is what we do not see when we walk down a busy street. We salve our consciences once a year by donating to people who are "less fortunate" than we are, or by putting together food baskets to be distributed to people who are in that same miserable boat. Misery belongs to somebody else. It doesn't belong to "We".

Mal

winsum
October 23, 2004 - 02:59 pm
see from Kant here http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.html#k

the following

Kant accepted without reservation that “God, freedom and immortality” (1781/7, Bxxx) exist but feared that, if science were relevant to their existence at all, it would provide reasons to doubt that they exist.

Claire

Justin
October 23, 2004 - 04:32 pm
Robby; You have not changed the Green Notes as we entered Persia. Is there a reason for that?

robert b. iadeluca
October 23, 2004 - 06:23 pm
Yes. LAZINESS!

I'll change them as we start Islam.

Robby

3kings
October 23, 2004 - 07:07 pm
Traude S. You give some interesting examples of faith, but there is one I can't accept.

Your quote :- Faith has other meanings, e.g. confidence in the provability of hypothetical mathematical and scientific theorems; ( My emphasis)

One can have hope that some mathematical hypothesis can be proved, but Faith is a concept that has no place in Mathematics generally, and certainly not in mathematical theorems. == Trevor

Traude S
October 23, 2004 - 08:19 pm
Trevor, thank you. Even if not applicable, perhaps we could call it "blind" faith? <grin>

I did not have a "pronouncement" in mind (not my style); I merely wanted to point out that "faith" has definitions and meanings other than religious beliefs.

Actually, in entry number (2), my big Random House dictionary defines faith as "a belief not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact".

JoanK
October 23, 2004 - 11:49 pm
Trevor: "One can have hope that some mathematical hypothesis can be proved". Actually, the hypotheses are by definition, that which you accept and don't try to "prove" (ie demonstrate by deductive reasoning). Sometimes they may be demonstrated empirically, sometimes they are just accepted. But at the base of Mathematics are axioms which are not proven, but accepted on faith.

winsum
October 24, 2004 - 12:55 am
accepted on faith because math is a human construction and not related to anything outside of our human experience of it.

I watched a Nova program on "strings" a math construction which didn't work oout mathematically, until it was tied to gravity, an actual measurable reality.

even after that, every scientist had to work with it until there were so many versions of it, that it was impossible to make any assumptions concerning it. . .

we are left again with faith, in the prospect that there are or will be scientific explanations for everything. it's this that keeps our scientists hoping and playing around with what is already part of our culteral heritage. it's almost a game with them. and math is their entry into the game. It's so complicated that "it must be meaningful". . . .claire

Éloïse De Pelteau
October 24, 2004 - 03:16 am
Then can we define faith as 'hope' in the broad sense of the word?

Eloïse

robert b. iadeluca
October 24, 2004 - 05:19 am
Back to Durant and the Persians:-

"On his accession Khosru proclaimed his desire for peace with Rome. Justinian, having designs on Africa and Italy, agreed. In 532 the two 'brothers' signed 'an eternal peace.' When Africa and Italy fell, Khosru humorously asked for a share of the spoils on the ground that Byzantium could not have won had not Persia made peace. Justinian sent him costly gifts.

"In 539 Khosru declared war on 'Rome,' alleging that Justinian had violated the terms of their treaty. Procopius confirms the charge. Probably Khosru thought it wise to attack while Justinian's armies were still busy in the West instead of waiting for a victorious and strengthened Byzantium to turn all its forces against Persia. Furthermore it seemed to Khosru manifest destiny that Persia should have the gold mines of Trebizond and an outlet on the Black Sea.

"He marched into Syria, besieged Hierapolis, Apamea, and Aleppo, spared them for rich ransoms, and soon stood before Antioch.

"The reckless population, from the battlements, greeted him not merely with arrows and capapult missles, but with the obscene sarcasm for which it had earned an international reputation. The enraged monarch took the city by storm, looted its treasures, burned down all its buildings except the cathedral, massacred part of the population, and sent the remainder away to people a new 'Antioch' in Persia. Then he bathed with delight in that Mediterranean which had once been Persia's western frontier.

"Justinian dispatched Belisarius to the rescue but Khosru leisurely crossed the Euphrates with his spoils and the cautious general did not pursue him (541).

"The inconclusiveness of the wars between Persia and Rome was doubtless affected by the difficulty of maintaining an occupation force on the enemy's side of the Syrian desert or the Taurus range. Modern improvements in transport and communication have permitted greater wars.

"In three further invasions of Roman Asia, Khosru made rapid marches and sieges, took ransoms and captives, ravaged the country side, and peaceably retired (542-3). In 545 Justinian paid him 2000 pounds of gold ($840,000) for a five-year truce, and on its expiration 2600 pounds for a five-year extension. Finally (562), after a generation of war, the aging monarchs pledged themselves to peace for fifty years.

"Justinian agreed to pay Persia annually 30,000 pieces of gold ($7,500,000), and Khosru renounced his claims to disputed territories in the Caucasus and on the Black Sea."

Seems like a giant game of chess, using people as chess pieces. Sounded almost like a 'friendly' game until one side swore at the other -- then the chess board was knocked over and the 'friendliness" disappeared. Again -- there must be a message here somewhere.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
October 24, 2004 - 07:32 am
Where I come from hypotheses are possibilities, which until they can be proven are not laws or truth, or even theories. Applying this to what ROBBY has said this morning about the quotes from Durant, one can hypothesize that this game where people are used as pawns will go on in the future just as it has throughout all of history, unless human behavior evolves to the point where chess game mentality is not an attractive means to find a solution.

In other words, living side by side in peace is better than killing each other off to prove who is dominant and superior.

There's no precedent for my making this comment, so it is only a possibility, a hypothesis. It seems to me that people like Jesus and the Buddha and other prophets acted on this same hypothesis and tried to convince others it could be true by setting examples by their own behavior and what they taught. As I see it, the only faith involved is that which embraces the idea that these prophets might know more than we do and follow their lead.

Mal

Scrawler
October 24, 2004 - 10:13 am
I fear that the people of earth can't live side by side in peace. The only way this can happen is when they accept that they are equal to their brothers and sisters and therefore have no reason to fight or when and if another species attacks and the people of earth must come together, putting aside their difference, to defeat this "new species" from taking over the earth.

moxiect
October 24, 2004 - 10:26 am


Everything is a possibility when one has "faith" in their own abilities.

Malryn (Mal)
October 24, 2004 - 10:36 am
What if we used some of those billions and billions of dollars we spend to make war to buy some peace the way Justinian did?

Mal

HubertPaul
October 24, 2004 - 11:54 am
Everybody wants peace.... a piece of this and a piece of that. Who was ever taught proper spelling?

robert b. iadeluca
October 24, 2004 - 12:01 pm
Bert:-Any reactions to Durant's comments about the Persians in Post 195?

Robby

Justin
October 24, 2004 - 12:34 pm
Let's get hypothesis out of the way first. An hypothesis is an assumed proposition used as a premise in proving something else.

In statistics it is a statement specifying a population or distribution. It is framed insuch a way that it can be denied on the basis if sample evidence if the hypothesis is not true. Alternatively it may be framed as a null hypothesis and tested for accuracy under the rules of probability.

In the scientific method an hypothesis takes on a similar characteristic. It is a proposition used as a premise in proving something else.

robert b. iadeluca
October 24, 2004 - 12:40 pm
So what are we trying to prove or disprove here? The existence of Faith? Or its power?

Why would Durant have called that 1000-year era the Age of Faith?

Robby

Justin
October 24, 2004 - 12:47 pm
Durant called the 1000 year period the Age of Faith because it was dominated not by reason but by faith in a variety of explanations for the unknown. Uncertainty prevailed in the era and the concept of probability had not been conceived to allow a mathematical understanding of the unknown. Superstition (you should excuse the expression) prevailed supported by faith.

robert b. iadeluca
October 24, 2004 - 01:38 pm
Here is a quote in another forum by Ginny, Host of Books & Literature.

"Robby's Readers continue to quote him and Durant in every discussion I lead, which proves that the study of the Story of Civilization IS making a difference here in people's consciousnesses!"

Ginny, as host, roams all over the Books & Literature section of Senior Net. Isn't it nice to know that those of us here are helping to bring people's thoughts to a higher level of awareness? And may I add (I believe I mentioned this before) that when using Google, I often find comments by participants here in SofC.

Robby

Jan Sand
October 24, 2004 - 02:12 pm
I am sorry to impose on this site for a personal message but this is something of an emergency.

Claire, I am receiving your e-mail but all messages I try to send as a reply are returned as undeliverable.

Jan

Malryn (Mal)
October 24, 2004 - 03:06 pm
About Post #205:

I find it almost impossible not to relate other discussions to what we've read in Durant and discussed. The Iliad discussion is only one.

I read and discuss contemporary novels, and The Story of Civilization comes to mind.

I go into the Relgion discussions, especially the Jewish one, and remember the history we've discussed here.

The same applies to certain Political Issues discussions and newspapers I read.

Most importantly for me, this discussion of The Story of Civilization is affecting the way I write. I have started to write a new novel, and issues we've talked about here are finding their way onto its pages.

Mal

HubertPaul
October 24, 2004 - 03:23 pm
Robby, you said it all :"...Seems like a giant game of chess, using people as chess pieces...." It's a power struggle, not much different from civilizations we studied previouly. To the victors go the spoils.

Fifi le Beau
October 24, 2004 - 05:37 pm
A new book that discusses faith was given to me, and today I had time to open it and read. It is "The end of Faith" by Sam Harris. I looked on his web site for a reading, but it requires Acrobat reader and a lot of people don't like to download the program.

I found an interview on Amazon with the author that I will give a link to that describes his thesis. The title of the book is misleading (at least to me) in what Harris has to say.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/feature/-/542154/002-9023244-7484845

Fifi

winsum
October 24, 2004 - 05:53 pm
continues to this day. There is still confusion and even violence in connection with it's diversity. . . .so historically I now realize that as long as poeple need it, it will prevail. A raising of consciousness to a more rational level is the only thing that will eventually let it die from lack of use. . . . claire

Fifi le Beau
October 24, 2004 - 07:21 pm
Since the first volumn of SOC there have been so many wars discussed that they tend to all run together after a time. There was one bit of interesting information from Durant about the back and forth between Khosru of Persia and Justinian Rome. There were several invasions, rapid marches, ransome, captives, ravaging of countryside, looting, and many deaths, but all the wars were inconclusive because of the difficulty of maintaining an occupation.

In other words lets grab what we can get and get out of here. Marching in and taking a city or state by force seemed to happen regularly, but occupation was always difficult, even for Rome. The Romans fought perpetual wars to hang on to their empire.

I have read a large stack of books on the current conflicts that we are engaged in. I keep reading and hearing that all wars are fought for economic reasons. Like Khosru wanted the goldmines and an outlet to the Black Sea, when all the reasons for war are laid out, it usually boils down to "you have something we want."

As a history and biography buff, I have found that there has never been a day of peace on the entire earth since the beginning of recorded time, and likely prehistoric also.

Somewhere someone is engaged in war every day of every year from time immemorial.

Fifi

Justin
October 24, 2004 - 07:30 pm
Even if one wishes a more rational basis for guiding one's life, the choice is most difficult because other family members may not make the same choice. If one's parents or one's spouse are religious a break can be very stressful and often one does not adopt an alternative way of life to avoid stress. Religion gets hold of one, ensnares an entire family and leaves little time for real life.

3kings
October 24, 2004 - 08:07 pm
Please forgive me for returning briefly to the juxtaposition of Faith and Maths.

In the 19th century the legislature in Illinois ( I think ) tried to legislate, in accord with Christian Faith, that the value of the constant pi would henceforth be exactly equal to 3, as claimed in the Bible.

Luckily, those who saw no relevance between Faith and Mathematics. had the legislation tossed out.

One can not apply Faith, a religious concept, to Mathematics.++ Trevor

Malryn (Mal)
October 24, 2004 - 08:18 pm
Thank you, TREVOR, and you are, of course, right. Pi = 3.14159265.

Of course, wars are fought for economic reasons. How could anyone think otherwise?

Yours is an intriguing post, JUSTIN. I'm thankful that the Protestants, Catholics, Jews and atheists in my family are not so ensnared that they cannot see.

Mal

Justin
October 24, 2004 - 09:39 pm
The idea that most wars are economic is well founded. However, one must not construe that to mean that human life is not at stake in the outcome.

When Caesar came to Gaul in 54 BCE, the Helvettii were advancing on Gaul from the north west. The Helvettii had been confined to an area in Switzerland bounded by mountains with snow and ice much of the year. The tribe grew from year to year and eventually became too large for the available arable land to support given the agricultural technology of that period. They either moved south out of the mountains or they starved. If they moved south they would have to overcome the resistance of the southern land holders. That meant war. Was the motivation economic? You bet.

Today we see a different economic motivation for war. We don't need land. We need oil. Iraq has oil holdings. We are an oil consuming nation. We would soon starve if we did not have adequate supplies of oil.

It may surprise some but the motivation for the War in the Pacific during WWll was about oil. The Java oil fields were very necessary to Japan's well being. They were cut off from those fields and so attacked those who blocked the way.

The American Civil War was about economics. The South believed it's well being tied up with a slave economy. The South seceded from the Union to protect their livelihood.They attacked Fort Sumpter.

Wars seen from one side are about economic issues.But from the opposite side they are about defense. That is why preemptive war is wrong. Preemptive war means anticipating a problem faced by an enemy and attacking before the problem pushes that enemy into attacking first. It seems to me that preemptive negotiation would be much more appropriate. If we are ever to have a chance to avoid war, that chance would be best when we can anticipate a problem faced by an enemy. If one is attacked, one must defend but if one can anticipate trouble one can negotiate one's way out of it. That's why the current conflict appears to me a mistake- a failure to negotiate when we had the chance to do so.

robert b. iadeluca
October 25, 2004 - 02:58 am
"Khosru was not through with war. About 570, at the request of the Himyarites of southwest Arabia, he sent an army to free them from their Abyssinian conquerors. When the liberation was accomplished the Himyarites found that they were now a Persian province.

"Justinian had made an alliance with Abyssinia. His successor Justin II considered the Persian expulsion of the Abyssinians from Arabia an unfriendly act. Moreover, the Turks on Persia's eastern border secretly agreed to join an attack upon Khosru. Justin declared war (572).

"Despite his age, Khosru took the field in person and captured the Roman frontier town of Dara. His health failed him. He suffered his first defeat (578) and retired to Ctesiphon where he died in 579 at an uncertain age.

"In forty-eight years of rule he had won all his wars and battles except one, had extended his empire on every side, had made Persia stronger than ever since Darius I and had given it so competent a system of administration that when the Arabs conquered Persia they adopted that system practically without change.

"Almost contemporary with Justinian, he was rated by the common consent of their contemporaries as the greater king. The Persians of every later generation counted him the strongest and ablest monarch in their history.

"His son Hormizd IV )579-89) was overthrown by a general, Bahram Cobin, who made himself regent for Hormizd's son Khosru II (589) and a year later made himself king. When Khosru came of age he demanded the throne. Bahram refused. Khosru fled to Hierapolis in Roman Syria. The Greek Emperor Maurice offered to restore him to power if Persia would withdraw from Armenia.

"Khosru agreed and Ctesiphon had the rare experience of seeing a Roman army install a Persian king (596)."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 25, 2004 - 03:05 am
Click HERE to learn about the Semitic Himyaritic tribe, now located in Yemen.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 25, 2004 - 03:16 am
This information about 6TH CENTURY ABYSSINIA is long and detailed -- YET contains some fascinating facts.

Robby

Bubble
October 25, 2004 - 04:53 am
...the Semitic Himyaritic tribe I looked at the picture of the script and it looked familiar. I then went to look at the book I have about Amharic, the language and writing of the Ethiopians who came here. They seemed strangely similar to my eyes.

"Ma'rib" mentionned under the picture for Yemen, is very near the Hebrew word for "The East - Ma'rav" when one knows that B and V are interchangeable.

robert b. iadeluca
October 25, 2004 - 05:05 am
Bubble:-Anything familiar in the Abyssinian (Ethiopian) link?

Robby

Bubble
October 25, 2004 - 05:16 am
Sorry, I didn't have time yet to look: you said detailed... so it will be for later in the day.

robert b. iadeluca
October 25, 2004 - 05:36 am
This ARTICLE from this morning's NY Times tells of the death of another renowned historian of the ancient world.

Robby

Bubble
October 25, 2004 - 06:41 am
Reading the very interesting article on Abyssinia, some remarks come to mind.

The vehicular language of the Ethiopians Felshas who arrived in israel is Amharic which the article tells us is spoken in Middle and Lower Abyssinia, but the Holy Books or scrools they brought were written in Guez which is considered to be holier. If this was the language spoken in Aksim, it is not surprising since Aksum is the site with the old temples and churches carved in the rock.


"The name HABESH was disliked by the indigenous peoples of the country"

The Hebrew name used today for Ethiopia is Habash. Of course I never stopped to consider on the map how close Aden is from Ethiopia. Knowing them to be on different continents seemed to made the distance greater.

In '92 I was lucky enough to see an exhibition at the Ethnologic Museum of Tervuren in Brussel. It was a detailed tour of life in Ethiopia from brith to death and in all stations of life. On one floor the temples of Aksum had been reproduced to scale but with appropriate films in each one.

There was a corner for music and dance, for old jewelry, for different dwellings etc, I have rarely seen anything so complete and so absorbing. The last part was in painting with old enluminated maniscripts depicting the life of Meneluk. They had modern art too and it showed the influence of the old style. A renowed painter who had been the official artist attached to Haile Selassie was painting an enormous canvas which was daily cut in strips and sold to the profit of orphans in Ethiopia. The colors were bright, the scenes biblical and all very stylized and serene like in old icons.

The article brought back to memory my marvelling about these people who seemingly primitive could have such a rich culture.

Bubble
October 25, 2004 - 06:53 am
Dr. Grant wrote that a proper appraisal of the gladiator spectacle was pertinent to today's world, since it was "one of the extremely few epochs of human history to have achieved cruelty on a scale as numerically lavish as ancient Rome."

Wow - so it was not my imagination when that thought crossed my mind. I was hoping it was having instantaneous information nowadays making seem it that way.

Éloïse De Pelteau
October 25, 2004 - 07:17 am
Bubble, that is fascinating regarding Abyssinia.

From the The NY Times link, Dr. Grant defining 'greatness'.

"In his biography of Constantine, first published in 1993, Dr. Grant discussed the emperor's murders, including those of his eldest son and second wife.

"It is a travesty to call such a murderer Constantine the Great," he wrote. "Or perhaps not: for what does greatness mean?"


Exactly what does greatness mean?

Éloïse

Malryn (Mal)
October 25, 2004 - 01:54 pm
Alexander the Great. Caesar Augustus. All the other Augustuses. Were these men great? To me it takes statesmanship to be great. How many statesmen have we met since we began the first volume of The Story of Civilization, I wonder?

Mal

Justin
October 25, 2004 - 02:56 pm
The passing of Michael Grant is sad. Every once in a while a historian comes along who is able to express scholarly material in an interesting way for the nonspecialist. I have been privileged to read perhaps a half dozen of his fifty books and I am looking forward to reading more. He treats people like St. Paul and Jesus as fallible humans and thus brings new understanding to characters who generally reside in some world other than our own.

robert b. iadeluca
October 25, 2004 - 04:31 pm
"Khosru Parvez ('Victorious') rose to greater heights of power than any Persian since Xerxes, and prepared his empire's fall. When Phocas murdered and replaced Maurice, Parvez declared war on the usurper (603) as an act of vengeance for his friend. In effect the ancient contest was renewed.

"Byzantine being torn by sedition and faction, the Persian armies took Dara, Amida, Edessa, Hierapolis, Aleppo, Apames, Damascus (605-13). Inflamed with success, Parvez proclaimed a holy war against the Christians. 26,000 Jews joined his army. In 614 his combined forces sacked Jerusalem, and massacred 90,000 Christians.

"Many Christian churches, including that of the Holy Sepulcher, were burned to the ground. The True Cross, the most cherished of all Christian relics, was carried off to Persia.

"To Heraclius, the new Emperor, Parvez sent a theological inquiry:-'Khosru, greatest of gods and master of the whole earth, to Heraclius, his vile and insensate slave. You say that you trust in your god. Why, then, has he not delivered Jerusalem out of my hands?'

"In 616 a Persian army captured Alexandria. By 619 all Egypt, as not since Darius II, belonged to the King of Kings. Meanwhile another Persian army overran Asia Minor and captured Chalcedon (617). For ten years the Persians held that city, separated from Constantinople only by the narrow Bosporus.

"During that decade Parvez demolished churches, transported their art and wealth to Persia, and taxed Western Asia into a destitution that left it resourceless against an Arab conquest now only a generation away.

"Khosru turned over the conduct of the war to his generals, retired to his luxurious palace at Dastagird (some sixty miles north of Ctesiphon), and gave himself to art and love. He assembled architects, sculptors, and painters to make his new capital outshine the old, and to carve likenesses of Shirin, the fairest and most loved of his 3000 wives.

"The Persians complained that she was a Christian. Some alleged that she had converted the King. In any case, amid his holy war, he allowed her to build many churches and monasteries. But Persia, prospering with spoils and a resplenished slave supply, could forgive its king his self-indulgence, his art, even his toleration. It hailed his victories as the final triumph of Persia over Greece and Rome, of Ormuzd over Christ.

"Alexander at last was answered, and Marathon, Salamis, Plataea, and Arbela were avenged."

I used to wonder if the numbers of people slaughtered was exaggerated but now I am beginning to believe the numbers. I used to doubt the number of wives the Emperors and Kings had but I'm beginning to believe that too.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 25, 2004 - 05:53 pm
Here is a link that you will love. Come read about the city of DAMASCUS. Give it time to download and as you read the history of this city, you will find your foot tapping to the beat of the Eastern music.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 25, 2004 - 06:25 pm
Photo of the DAMASCUS CITADEL. Allow time for downloading.

Robby

Sunknow
October 25, 2004 - 11:42 pm
One Civilization after another seems to vanish at the blink of an eye. Time after time they seem to think they have conquered the world, while over the horizon.....

Is our on time on earth as fleeting as of theirs? Yes, I suspect it is.

Still something remains of thier time, they left many reminders behind them.

Sun

robert b. iadeluca
October 26, 2004 - 03:40 am
I agree, Sun. It is impossible to follow along these ancient civilizations without constantly examining our own. It makes us think of the third question in the Heading -- "Where are we headed?"

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 26, 2004 - 03:51 am
"Nothing remained of the Byzantine Empire except a few Asiatic ports, some fragments of Italy, Africa, and Greece, an unbeaten navy, and a besieged capital frenzied with terror and despair.

"Heraclius took ten years to build a new army and state out of the ruins. Then, instead of attempting a costly crossing at Chalcedon, he sailed into the Black Sea, crossed Armenia, and attacked Persia in the rear. As Khosru had desecrated Jerusalem, so now Heraclius destroyed Clorumia, birthplace of Zoroaster, and put out its sacred inextinguishable light (624).

"Khosru sent army after army against him. They were all defeated. As the Greeks advanced, Khosru fled to Ctesiphon. His generals, smarting under his insults, joined the nobles in deposing him.

"He was imprisoned, and fed on bread and water. Eighteen of his sons were slain before his eyes. Finally another son, Sheroye, put him to death (628)."

The inextinguishable light was extinguished. The Victor became the victim. "And this, too, shall pass away."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 26, 2004 - 04:00 am
Here is an excellent OVERVIEW of that particular period of time.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
October 26, 2004 - 07:39 am
That's a wonderful World History website you linked, ROBBY. Below is a link to a page on that site, which I think is interesting.

6th Century Timeline

winsum
October 26, 2004 - 09:38 am
these periods flash before our eyes because they are denoted only as wars and conflicts.

How would the period of the twentieth century look to our descendants if we for the most part spoke of it as world war one and two and the wars in korea and vietnam and iraq one and two? We'd miss much of what happened in that period. It being incredably rich with science and art and societal changes. this view of history lacks something. . . . claire

robert b. iadeluca
October 26, 2004 - 03:38 pm
Claire:-Could it be that our scientific gains and societal changes have occurred mainly as a result of our wars?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 26, 2004 - 04:16 pm
SASANIAN ART

robert b. iadeluca
October 26, 2004 - 04:27 pm
"Of the wealth and splendor of the Shapurs, the Kavadhs, and the Khosrus nothing survives but the ruins of Sasanian art -- enough, however, to heighten our wonder at the persistence and adaptability of Persian art from Darius the Great and Persepolis to Shah Abbas the Great and Isfahan.

"Extant Sasanian architecture is entirely secular. The fire temples have disappeared and only royal palaces remain. These are 'gigantic skeletons' with their ornamental stucco facing long since fallen away.

"The oldest of these ruins is the so-called palace of Ardashir I at Firuzabad, southeast of Shiraz. No one knows its date. Guesses range from 340 B.C. to A.D. 460. After fifteen centuries of heat and cold, theft and war, the enormous dome still covers a hall one hundred feet high and fifty-five wide. A portal arch eighty-nine feet high and forty-two wide divided a facade 170 feet long. This facade crumbled in our time.

"From the rectangular central hall squinch arches led up to a circular dome. By an unusual and interesting arrangement, the pressure of the dome was borne by a double hollow wall, whose inner and outer frames were spanned by a barrel vault. To this reinforcement of inner by outer wall were added external buttresses of attached pilasters of heavy stones.

"Here was an architecture quite different from the classic columnar style of Persepolis -- crude and clumsy but using forms that would come to perfection in the St. Sophia of Justinian."

Help, artists and architects! Please help us to understand these terms.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 26, 2004 - 05:52 pm
Photos of the ARDESHIR PALACE and text about its acoustical properties.

Robby

Justin
October 26, 2004 - 06:34 pm
I read these linkages and think I am reading my daily newspaper. Khosru was successful in war. "The Zoroastrian priesthood was pleased. As they saw it, their King Khosru was responsible for conquering the world in order to spread peace, the Zoroastrian faith, individual salvation, and to prepare all human kind for the great world wide battle against satan and armegeddon."

robert b. iadeluca
October 26, 2004 - 07:00 pm
Photos of the ARDESHIR PALACE and text about its acoustical properties.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
October 26, 2004 - 07:41 pm
Picture of a Sasanian plate


Picture of a Sasanian bowl.


Picture of a Sasanian plate

winsum
October 26, 2004 - 09:12 pm
I know what they are..can see a barrel vault in my mind but it's hard to see in those ruins. it's like a half of a barrel perched on top of straight walls to form a curved ceiling. evidently this was how the walls of the geat dome were made strong enought to support the great dome...I don't know what squinch arches are but I can imagine they are pressure of some sort.

now we know -- I looked it up





'Squinch Arch. What is it? A squinch arch is an archway situated above the four corners of a square room. ..."

found here: http://discover.edventures.com/functions/termlib.php?action=&termid=3004α=s&searchString= - 34k - similar pages



Claire

winsum
October 26, 2004 - 09:45 pm
http://www.archiseek.com/guides/glossary/

and here is an even better one pictures are beautifu in themselves and detail is shown separately with explanation.

http://www.trp.dundee.ac.uk/research/glossary/images/kelliec.jpg

and without the particular picture.

winsum
October 26, 2004 - 10:20 pm
http://www.archiseek.com/guides/glossary/

and here is an even better one pictures are beautifu in themselves and detail is shown separately with explanation.

http://www.trp.dundee.ac.uk/research/glossary/images/kelliec.jpg

and without the particular picture. this is a squinch arch tying the two walls together at the corner.

the main site is here

http://www.trp.dundee.ac.uk/research/gl

robert b. iadeluca
October 27, 2004 - 03:54 am
"Not far away, at Sarvistan, stands a similar ruin of like uncertain date -- a facade of three arches, a great central hall and side rooms, covered by ovoid domes, barrel vaults, and semicupolas serving as buttresses. From these half domes, by removing all but their sustaining framework, the 'flying' or skeletal buttress of Gothic architecture may have evolved.

"Northwest of Susa another ruined palace, the Ivan-Kharka, shows the oldest known example of the transverse vault, formed with diagonal ribs.

"But the most impressive of Sasanian relics -- which frightened the conquering Arabs by its mass -- was the royal palace of Ctesiphon, named by the Arabs Taq-i-Kisra, or Arch of Khosru (I). It may be the building described by a Greek historian of A.D. 638, who tells how Justinian 'provided Greek marble for Chosroes, and skilled artisans who built for him a palace in the Roman style, not far from Ctesiphon.'

"The north wing collapsed in 1888, the dome is gone, three immense walls rise to a height of one hundred and five feet, with a facade horizontally divided into five tiers of blind arcades. A lofty central arch -- the highest (eighty-five feet) and widest(seventy-two feet) elliptical arch known -- opened upon a hall one hundred and fifteen by seventy-five feet. The Sasanian kings relished room.

"These ruined facades imitate the less elegant of Roman front elevations, like the Theater of Marcellus. They are more impressive than beautiful but we cannot judge past beauty by present ruins."

Impressive even by our standards!

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
October 27, 2004 - 05:34 am
"They are more impressive than beautiful but we cannot judge past beauty by present ruins."

We often do that though and unless we know art history, those ruins are just an haphazard mass of old stones not worth a second glance. Only what they evoke in the individual mind can they rise again to reveal their past splendor.

If I ever visit the Middle East, my imagination might be able to reconstruct some of the beauty that is described here because I would be able to compare it with ancient monuments I have seen in Europe and observe the different architectural styles and what inspired their creator.

Éloise

Malryn (Mal)
October 27, 2004 - 09:12 am
Picture of the ruins at Ctesiphon

Another view of the ruins at Ctesiphon

winsum
October 27, 2004 - 10:45 am
the clesiphon ruins haunt me...they have some of the same aspects as the remainder of the nine elevan buildings before they were removed. . .that lovely oval arch. what kind would you say??

Justin
October 27, 2004 - 12:43 pm
The arch at Ctesiphon is a pointed Saracenic. Those arches on the rez-de-chaussée are Romanesque or semicircular stilted.

Remains are saddening like a broken paper puzzle. One can play a game with the parts. Start with an image of the original building with the joint lines outlined. One then tries to match the broken stubble with a section of the whole. Sometimes it's easy, sometimes it's difficult, as in a paper puzzle. Investigators of air crashes do a similar thing when they reconstruct a downed plane.

Persian
October 27, 2004 - 03:19 pm
I am delighted to return to this discussion (after dealing with some unexpected cardiological health issues and schedules for cataract surgery) to find that you are discussing some of the most interesting historical sites in Iran.

ELOISE - indeed if your feet were on the ground there, you would have no trouble at all seeing the complete structures in your mind, hearing the citizens going about their daily business, the villagers setting up in the bazaars, and interacting with the hustle and bustle of the community. One cannot help but be drawn into the ancient community.

robert b. iadeluca
October 27, 2004 - 04:55 pm
Mahlia:-We are all so pleased that you are recovering nicely (I hope!) from heart and eye problems and are back with us. The day after election day we will follow Durant as he starts to move us through Islam and your valuable input will be much welcomed.

Robby

Justin
October 27, 2004 - 06:02 pm
Mahlia:Good to see you are posting again. I was a little worried you might miss our entrance into Islam but now that you are back we can happily advance to that era knowing you will provide your usual knowledgeable background. I hope no serious cardiac problem arose during your absence.

Bubble
October 27, 2004 - 11:49 pm
Shalom-Salaam Mahlia! Good to see you.
Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
October 28, 2004 - 03:29 am
"The most attractive of Sasanian remains are not the gutted palaces of crumbling sun-baked brick, but rock reliefs carved into Persia's mountainsides. These gigantic figures are lineal descendants of the Achaemenid kings. The oldest of the Sasanian sculptures shows Ardashir trampling upon a fallen foe -- presumably the last of the Arsacids.

"Finer are those at Naqsh-i-Rustam, near Persepolis, celebrating Ardashir, Shapur I, and Bahram II. The kings are drawn as dominating figures but, like most kings and men, they find it hard to rival the grace and symmetry of the animals.

"Similar reliefs at Naqsh-i-Redjab and at Shapur present powerful stone portraits of Shapur I and Bahram I and II.

"At Taq-i-Bustan -- Arch of the Garden -- near Kermanshah, two column-supported arches are deeply cut into the cliff. Reliefs on the inner and outer faces of the arches show Shapur II and Khosru Parvez at the hunt. The stone comes alive with fat elephants and wild pigs. The foliage is carefully done and the capitals of the columns are handsomely curved.

"There is in these sculptures no Greek grace of movement or smoothness of line -- no keen individualization -- no sense of perspective -- and little modeling. But in dignity and majesty, in masculine vitality and power, they bear comparison with most of the arch reliefs of imperial Rome.

"Apparently these carvings were colored. So were many features of the palaces. Only traces of such painting remain.

"The literature, however, makes it clear that the art of painting flourished in Sasanian times. The prophet Mani is reported to have founded a school of painting.

"Firdausi speaks of Persian magnates adorning their mansions with pictures of Iranian heroes and the poet al-Buhturi (d. 897) describes the murals in the palace of Ctesiphon.

"When a Sasanian king died, the best painter of the time was called upon to make a portrait of him for a collection kept in the royal treasury."

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
October 28, 2004 - 05:28 am
Born and raised on the Red Sox, I saw my first game in Fenway Park when I was a very little girl, and have waited all my life for this to happen. Impossible dreams can come true. The Red Sox won the World Series!



Naqsh-i-Rustam

More

Malryn (Mal)
October 28, 2004 - 05:36 am
Taq-i-Bustan

More

More

Malryn (Mal)
October 28, 2004 - 05:38 am
Sculptures at Persepolis

Scrawler
October 28, 2004 - 10:29 am
Pigs can fly, hell is frozen, the slipper finally fits, and impossible dreams really come true:

THE RED SOX HAVE WON THE WORLD SERIES!

What it has to do with ancient Iran is a puzzle, I just had to share it!

Sorry Robby!

Malryn (Mal)
October 28, 2004 - 11:51 am
SCRAWLER, I deliberately restrained myself from posting what was on the front page of the Boston Globe online. Thanks for doing it from an all-time Red Sox fan. 86 years in the coming, Red Sox fans were born to lose. I never thought I'd see Beantown win in my lifetime, but I have! Not only that, they brought the Evil Empire in the South to their knees! There has to be a parallel to this in history somewhere.

Mal

winsum
October 28, 2004 - 12:03 pm
and I didnt see anyone wearing red sox. how come? and it doesn't have much to do with civilization unless you think of sports as a substitute for war. . . . claire

Sunknow
October 28, 2004 - 03:29 pm
"...sports as a substitute for war. . . ."

A sport IS a war, more often than not. Our civilized gladiators?

But we love them, don't we?

Sun

robert b. iadeluca
October 28, 2004 - 04:04 pm
"Painting, sculpture, pottery, and other forms of decoration shared their designs with Sasanian textile art. Silks, embroideries, brocades, damasks, tapestries, chair covers, canopies, tents, and rugs were woven with servile patience and masterly skill, and were dyed in warm tints of yellow, blue, and green.

"Every Persian but the peasant and the priest aspired to dress above his class. Presents often took the form of sumptuous garments. Great colorful carpets had been an appanage of wealth in the East since Assyrian days.

"The two dozen Sasanian textiles that escaped the teeth of time are the most highly valued fabrics in existence. Even in their own day Sasanian textiles were admired and imitated from Egypt to Japan. During the Crusades these pagan products were favored for clothing the relics of Christian saints.

"When Heraclius captured the palace of Khosru Parvez at Dastagird, delicate embroideries and an immense rug were among his most precious spoils.

"Famous was the 'winter carpet' of Khosru Anushirvan, designed to make him forget winter in its spring and summer scenes -- flowers and fruits made of inwoven rubies and diamonds grew, in this carpet, beside walks of silver and brooks of pearls traced on a ground of gold.

"Harun-al-Rashid prided himself on a spacious Sasanian rug thickly studded with jewelry.

"Persians wrote love poems about their rugs."

Robby

3kings
October 28, 2004 - 05:56 pm
The Red Socks won ? OK. But how come it is called a world series, when the competition and the players are confined to the US ? Of course there is a view that the US IS the world ......... But surely none here subscribe to that idea,, after reading these volumes ?( BG )

The Persians sure do have a love affair with their carpets, and I must say some I have seen really do have a quality about them. The geometric design of Persian art work attracts me. ++ Trevor

JoanK
October 28, 2004 - 06:56 pm
MAL: I thought of you last night listening to the Red Sox win. GREAT! they not only won, they did it in true heroic fashion. My niece in Boston says that everyone in town has been sleep deprived for days.

Yes, if sports is a substitute for war, than it's a pretty good idea. After reading about all these people killing each other, isn't it better to kill a ball instead?

Trevor: you are right, of course. Every people think they are the center of the universe. This becomes obvious, reading about Persian history. I know absolutely nothing about it. Presumably, since it isn't a precursor of American history, teachers here don't think it's important.

Malryn (Mal)
October 28, 2004 - 07:47 pm
Trevor, you can say much about my country from your perspective that I would agree with, but I won't let anyone knock my baseball. Here's a little about the history of the World Series.

"Although the 'Fall Classic' as we know it didn't begin until 1903, Major League Baseball had several versions of a post-season championship series before that. In 1884, the Providence Grays of the National League outplayed the New York Metropolitan Club of the American Association in a three game series for what was originally called 'The Championship of the United States.' Several newspapers penned the Grays as 'World Champions' and the new title stuck. The first World Series was played in 1903."
Persian carpet

Persian Kerman

Justin
October 28, 2004 - 10:22 pm
Mal; You may no longer consider yourself a loser from Beantown. The Red Sox not only won the pennant but also the World's Series. There is finally new life for all you New England exiles. I am happy for you.

Your post 257, I think, shows a relief at Naqsh-i-rustam of the Roman emperor Valerian kneeling in defeat at the feet of a Persian King Shapur l. It is rare in history that the Romans were overcome. There were a few. Varro is a case in point. But Valerian was defeated by a Persian army.

JoanK
October 29, 2004 - 12:16 am
I agree with Durant about the animals. The horses in these reliefs show a lot of grace and beauty.

robert b. iadeluca
October 29, 2004 - 04:10 am
"Of Sasanian pottery little remains except pieces of utilitarian intent. Yet the ceramic art was highly developed in Achaemenid times and must have had some continuance under the Sasanians to reach such perfection in Mohammedan Iran. Ernest Fenellosa thought that Persia might be the center from which the art of enamel spread even to the Far East. And art historians debate whether Sasanian Persia or Syria or Byzantium originated lusterware and cloisonne.

"Sasanian metal workers made ewers, jugs, bowls, and cups as if for a giant race, turned them on lathes, incised them with graver or chisel, or hammered out a desigh in repousse from the obverse side, and used gay animal forms, ranging from cock to lion, as handles and spous.

"The famous glass 'Cup of Khosru' in the Biblioteque Nationale at Paris has medallions of crystal glass inserted into a network of beaten gold. Tradition reckons this among the gifts sent by Harun to Charlemagne.

"The Goths may have learned this art of inlay from Persia and may have brought it to the West."

Robby

Persian
October 29, 2004 - 12:23 pm
ROBBY, JUSTIN & BUBBLE - many thanks for your welcome and encouragement. Cardiac and cataract sugery will probably be scheduled sometime in late November/early December (giving my son time to apply for emergency home leave or his military unit to return to the USA), so I continue to rest as much as possible.

As I read some of the comments about Persian carpets, I was reminded of a wonderful seminar I took at the Smithsonian many years ago on historical Persian carpets. It was absolutely fascinating and most enjoyable. I'd had a chance to talk to some Iranian scholars during visits to Iran years ago about the wide range of artistic talents and ancient history incorporated into the carpet weaving and visited some of the weavers. Truly a once-in-a-lifetime experience.

Indeed, it is true, Persians carry on long-term love affairs with their carpets!

Shasta Sills
October 29, 2004 - 02:18 pm
Kosru's carpet was woven with rubies and diamonds? Surely he didn't walk on it! This must have been a carpet that he hung on the wall.

Justin
October 29, 2004 - 02:53 pm
I agree with those art historians who say cloisonne comes from Persia. Most of the evidence points to Persia. They soldered decorative pieces on metal, worked in repousee, and created inlays with jewels. Ceramics and furnaces were common to both Persia and Syria. It is just a small step away to cloisonne.

robert b. iadeluca
October 29, 2004 - 05:14 pm
"The silversmiths made costly plate and helped the goldssmiths to adorn lords, ladies, and commoners with jewelry. Several Sasanian silver dishes survive -- in the British Museum, the Leningrad Hermitage, the Bibliotheque Nationale and the Metropolitan Museum of Art -- always with kings and nobles at the hunt, and animals more fondly and successfully drawn than men.

"Sasanian coins sometimes rivaled Rome's in beauty, as in the issues of Shapur I.

"Even Sasaniam books could be works of art. Tradition tells how gold and silver trickled from the bindings when Mani's books were publicly burned.

"Precious materials were also used in Sasanian furniture. Khosru I had a gold table inlaid with costly stones.

"Khosru II sent to his savior, the Emperor Maurice, an amber table five feet in diameter, supported on golden feet and encrusted with gems."

Robby

Persian
October 29, 2004 - 07:55 pm
Here's a link to some Sassanian art work of the period. The designs are familiar even to contemporary artists.

http://www.artarena.force9.co.uk/sass2.htm

winsum
October 29, 2004 - 08:39 pm
that's a lovely site. . . the great garden rug sounds incredible. I wonder if there are artists who might even now be working in that style. claire

Malryn (Mal)
October 29, 2004 - 09:31 pm
Shapur I coins

Sasanian ewer

Silver head of a king, probably Shapur II

Malryn (Mal)
October 29, 2004 - 09:38 pm
Sasanian plate

Sasanian bowl

Malryn (Mal)
October 29, 2004 - 10:11 pm
Persian bronze teapot, sixth century

Persian blue enamel pottery vase

Persian spear bearer

Persian
October 29, 2004 - 10:15 pm
One of the most magnificent carpets I remember learning about was the Pazyryk rug, depicting Persian Achaemenian motifs (see link below), located frozen in a Scythian burial site in the Altai Mountains.

http://www.alarnold.com/history.html

JoanK
October 30, 2004 - 01:16 am
These sites are breathtaking. Todays posts alone would make this discussion worthwhile, even if there weren't so many other good things.

MAHLIA: I'm so glad you could rejoin us in time for this. I am intrigued by a sentance in your first link: " One relief, carved on a rock wall at the Tang-i-Ab gorge near the Firuzabad plain, consists of three separate dueling scenes that express vividly the Iranian concept of battle as a series of individual engagements."

In another discussion, we are reading the Iliad. I have been struck throughout by the fact that Homer, even though he describes masses of soldiers vividly, depicts battle as a series of individual engagements. Aparently, this is the way battle was depicted in Persia as well. JUSTIN, do you know if that was true of early art in general?

Bubble
October 30, 2004 - 02:56 am
Here are some pictures of Persian carpets I must have crawled on as a baby. They are all made of fine wool. (Click on picts to enlarge!)

http://usera.imagecave.com/sop_bubble/Persian_Carpets/

The Hall carpet in rich tones of brown is made of a kind of silky wool and much finer than the two others. It must be older too. There are some clearly visible difference in hues between the start of the carpet and the end, but the motives stay consistent to the end.

These carpets on our tiled floors are a fantastic insulation for the winter.
Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
October 30, 2004 - 03:15 am
In Mahlia's link to "Brief History of Persian Rugs," I was struck by the fact that this exquisite art continues right up to our lifetimes. The Qatar Dynasty was up to 1925 and I was born in 1920. And I assume that "dynasties" still exist not known and of no interest whatsoever to the majority of the Western Civilization. Two parallel cultures with a minimum of communication between them.

Robby

JoanK
October 30, 2004 - 05:40 am
MALIA: gorgeous! Do you know how old they are?

Éloïse De Pelteau
October 30, 2004 - 06:01 am
MAHLIA, what absolutely beautiful rugs thank you also MAL and BUBBLE for your links. Here are more PERSIAN RUGS to admire.

Someone studying Eastern cultures recently told me that the Eastern mind is centered interiorly where our Western focus is exterior. Is that why the Middle East, where they join together, is always at war I wonder? Is this reflected in the design in their rugs?

The more a Persian rug design is small, the more costly they are apparently.

Éloïse

robert b. iadeluca
October 30, 2004 - 07:12 am
Here is an excellent example of ARTISTIC COMMUNICATION between the East and West.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 30, 2004 - 08:01 am
"All in all, Sasanian art reveals a laborious recovery after four centuries of Parthian decline. If we may diffidently judge from its remains, it does not equal the Achaemenid in nobility or grandeur, nor the Islamic Persian in inventiveness, delicacy, and taste. But it preserved much of the old virility in its reliefs, and foreshadowed something of the later exuberance in its decorative themes.

"It welcomed new ideas and styles and Khosru I had the good sense to import Greek artists and engineers while defeating Greek generals. Repaying its debt, Sasanian art exported its forms and motives eastward into India, Turkestan, and China, westward into Syria, Asia Minor, Constantinople, the Balkans, Egypt, and Spain.

"Probably its influence helped to change the emphasis in Greek art from classic representation to Byzantine ornament, and in Latin Christian art from wooden ceilings to brick or stone vaults and domes and buttressed walls. The great portals and cupolas of Sasanian architecture passed down into Moslem mosques and Mogul palaces and shrines.

"Nothing is lost in history. Sooner or later every creative idea finds opportunity and development, and adds its color to the flame of life."

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
October 30, 2004 - 08:22 am
Thanks for posting your Persian rugs, BUBBLE; they're wonderful to see. The house where I spent most of my growing up had some Persian rugs on the floors. I never liked them, don't ask me why. Now, of course, I wish I had some of them.

The bowl I posted a picture of is a most gorgeous work of art, I think. It's blown glass and wheel cut. I'd love to see it at the Met.

Persian bowl

Now I'm off to see if I can find the Red Sox parade in Boston on TV. They're going from the Fenway right through town onto Storrow Drive and into the Charles River in duck boats. An amazing celebration for the home team and a day of joy for Boston and the Red Sox Nation, which is what they call us fans.

Mal

Bubble
October 30, 2004 - 09:29 am
Mal that exquisite bowl seems to be made with the same glass the Roman used and we can still find some broken pieces on the beach of Ceasarea after high tides. I have a pair of earings made with two such two round pieces. The jewelry work of course is modern.

Those rugs travelled a lot. They came to Congo via Europe and now are in Israel. I bet if possible they could write a travelogue!

Shasta Sills
October 30, 2004 - 02:12 pm
That silver head of Shapur II is very forceful, perfectly symmetrical. What fierce eyes he has. When that king gave an order, I expect everybody jumped. Asymmetricality is more subtle and interesting than symmetricality; but symmetricality carries more sheer force.

I wonder how much time it takes to weave those gorgeous carpets. All those tiny little details must take a tremendous amount of work. I also wonder how they protected those woolen carpets from moths.

robert b. iadeluca
October 30, 2004 - 02:26 pm
The Arab Conquest

robert b. iadeluca
October 30, 2004 - 02:37 pm
"Having killed and succeeded his father, Sheroye -- crowned as Kavadh II -- made peace with Heraclius -- surrendered Egypt, Palestine, Syria, Asia Minor, and western Mesopotamia -- returned to their countries the captives taken by Persia -- and restored to Jerusalem the remains of the True Cross.

"Heraclius reasonably rejoiced over so thorough a triumph. He did not observe that on the very day in 629 when he replaced the True Cross in its shrine a band of Arabs attcked a Greek garrison near the River Jordan.

"In that same year pestilence broke out in Persia. Thousands died of it, including the King. His son Ardashir III, aged seven, was proclaimed ruler. A general, Shahr-Baraz, killed the boy and usurped the throne. His own soldiers killed Shahr-Baraz, and dragged his corpse through the streets of Ctesiphon, shouting:-'Whoever, not being of royal blood, seats himself upon the throne of Persia, will share this fate.'

"The populace is always more royalist than the king. Anarchy now swept through a realm exhausted by twenty-six years of war. Social disintegration climaxed a moral decay that had come with the riches of victory.

"In four years nine rulers contested the throne and disappeared through assassination, or flight, or an abnormally natural death. Provinces, even cities, declared their independence of a central government no longer able to rule.

"In 634 the crown was given to Yezdegird III, scion of the house of Sasan, and son of a Negress."

The plot thickens!! What momentous event is about to happen?!

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 30, 2004 - 02:51 pm
Here is an OVERVIEW of the events of that period with many many links where you can take side trips to satisfy your curiosity.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 30, 2004 - 02:59 pm
Information about the city CTESIPHON.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 30, 2004 - 03:05 pm
A photo of the still-existing ARCH OF CTESIPHON.

Robby

3kings
October 30, 2004 - 07:01 pm
"An abnormally natural death ." Durant does have some memorable phraseology !

Those Persian rugs are very beautiful. Thanks to those who gave us the links.

When my wife along with many thousands of Polish children were released from Stalin's Siberian labour camps in 1942, they finally ended, starving and lost in Persia. There they were cared for first in Tehran, and later in Isfahan, before she and 700 others of the group were finally brought to New Zealand.

The contrast of how the Persians cared for them, Catholics all, after their experiences at the hands of first the Germans, and then the Russians, was a lesson she has never forgotten.

A thing she has remembered from Isfahan, was the often beautiful silverwork to be found there. The modest prices were of course, far beyond those children's purchasing power, but she has often thought, if she should return there, that she would treasure those pieces she could buy. ++ Trevor

Justin
October 30, 2004 - 07:51 pm
Single combat between leaders or between warrior heros is the stuff of myth. War is waged between armies either loosely or tightly organized. The battles of Achilles, of Marduk, and of David are symbolic only.

In the Sumerian civilization, the earliest one we know anything about, warfare was conducted between opposing armies and not between heros in single combat. The Sumerian creation myth includes single combat to settle a war. According to the Sumerians , the first war was fought between the Old Ones and their children. Faced with military crisis Ea and the other gods called a conference. They chose Marduk as military leader. Marduk met Tiamat in single combat. Tiamat was defeated and her army fled in terror.The creation of the world came from a slain god. But all that,including single combat, of course, is myth.

Persian
October 30, 2004 - 08:42 pm
ROBBY - Sorry, I'm a little late coming in tonight. In your post #283, I believe you mean the Qajar Dynasty (Qatar is one of the Gulf States). Here's a link to the history of the Qajar Kings and some fascinating reasons why they were - in turn - powerful and then less so. http://www.iranchamber.com/history/qajar/qajar.php

When the great Farminfarmian family - one of the 7 most distinguished and powerful families of the Qajar Dynasty - was dispossessed of their extensive landholdings by the late Reza Shah Pahlavi - the last Shah's father - (many of their vast collections of Persian rugs from their various homes were turned over to the State (or at least that was the excuse for their being removed from the family.)

During a visit to Tehran many years ago, I visited one of the Pahlavi palaces and was overwhelmed by the gorgeous (and HUGE carperts) that were in each room and hung throughout the palace. Several of them were very ancient and absolutely breath-taking, along the lines of those we've seen in the links posted recently.

JOAN - RE your post #284 - sorry I do not know how old it is.

Bubble
October 31, 2004 - 01:46 am
Joan, were you asking the date of the Pazyryk? It is from the 5th century before J.C. according to the book I have, "Oriental Carpets" by N. Harris.

JoanK
October 31, 2004 - 01:48 am
Wow!!

Bubble
October 31, 2004 - 02:20 am
See here for some more pictures.

http://usera.imagecave.com/sop_bubble/Persian_Carpets/

You can see how the carpets are made on a vertical loom, how they are washed after completion in a stream of water and dried on the mountains, in the sun.

There are some drawings of the most used motives in geometrical carpet and of course the tree of life. The Ardebil Carpet is a very famous one in the Albert and Victoria Museum in london, it has on the narrow side a medallion with some arabic writing and a date 946 of the Egire,that is 1539-1540 It is estimated that the work on the carpet from order to completion took 15y, probably in Tabriz. It used to cover the tomb of shah Ishmail. Size: 11,50 X 5,34 meters. Sorry I could not get a picture of the whole carpet, it is a beauty!

You can also see how the knots were made, Persian or Turkish knots which are more dense because the 2 threads go into the same "hole". There is of course also the difference of single knot or double knot, if the knot uses one or two "holes". I learned to do it and I can tell you that after fifteen minutes the tips of my fingers were as sore as if pricked by a needle a thousand times. Those knots have to be pulled tight!

JoanK
October 31, 2004 - 02:32 am
BUBBLE: THOSE ARE INCREDIBLE PICTURES. In these days of fast-everything, it is mind-boggling to see the incredible painstaking work that goes into these.

I see the motifs are traditional. But is putting them together into the overall pattern and colors the work of the weaver?

Bubble
October 31, 2004 - 02:43 am
Usually, I suppose, they have "models" in the family and they work according to that, repeating endlessly or with small variations. When I learned to do it, there was a paper chart behind the web and I could check against it what color should go on each thread of the web and each row. The Persian women I am sure knew that by rote and by experience over the years. They started so early... I was told that you could often know the exact origin from the motives used.

Some of course were made on order for a special event. Famous painters have use them in their picture. Check Lorenzo Lotto In his family group (National Gallery- London) or Hans Holbein "The ambassadors" (National Gallery, London). On both they were used as table cover.

JoanK
October 31, 2004 - 02:55 am
Here is the largest image I found of the Holbein showing good detail of the carpet. You don't need the "image viewer", just scroll down.

THE AMBASSADORS

Éloïse De Pelteau
October 31, 2004 - 03:17 am
Those carpets take your breath away. 15 years to complete one carpet? one knot at a time and by hand, incredible and fascinating. I will never look at a carpet the same way again. Just beautiful.

robert b. iadeluca
October 31, 2004 - 03:45 am
Trevor:-That was a very touching story about your wife, as a child, being taken care of in Iran after a terrible period of time in Stalin's labor camps. How easy it is for those of us in the Western Civilization, especially in this time of terrorism, to look at all Easterners as "the enemy."

In a few short days, Durant will start us on a voyage through the development of Islam, starting with Mohammed. Maybe it will help us look at current events through different eyes.

Robby

Bubble
October 31, 2004 - 04:22 am
Joan, this is how I remember that picture: much brighter and with beautiful green drapes http://usera.imagecave.com/sop_bubble/Holbein/

robert b. iadeluca
October 31, 2004 - 05:10 am
Durant continues:-

"In 632 Mohammed died after founding a new Arab state.

"His second successor, the Caliph Omar, received in 634 a letter from Muthanna, his general in Syria, informing him that Persia was in chaos and ripe for conquest. Omar assigned the task to his most brilliant commander, Khalid.

"With an army of Bedouin Arabs inured to conflict and hungry for spoils, Khalid marched along the south shore of the Persian Gulf and sent a characteristic message to Hormizd, governor of the frontier province:-'Accept Islam, and thou art safe. Else pay tribute. A people is already upon thee, loving death even as thou lovest life.'

"Hormizd challenged him to single combat. Khalid accepted and slew him.

"Overcoming all resistance, the Moslems reached the Euphrates. Khalid was recalled to save an Arab army elsewhere. Muthanna replaced him and, with reinforcements, crossed the river on a bridge of boats.

"Yezdegird, still a yoth of twenty-two, gave the supreme command to Rustam, governor of Khurasan, and bade him raise a limitless force to save the state. The Persians met the Arabs in the Battle of the Bridge, defeated them, and pursued them recklessly. Muthanna re-formed his columns and at the battle of El-Bowayh destroyed the disordered Persian forces almost to a man(634).

"Moslem forces were heavy. Muthanna died of his wounds but the Caliph sent an abler general, Saad, and a new army of 30,000 men. Yezdegird replied by arming 120,000 Persians. Rustam led them across the Euphrates to Kadisiya, and there through four bloody days was fought one of the decisive battles of Asiatic history.

"On the fourth day a sandstorm blew into the faces of the Persians. The Arabs seized the opportunity and overwhelmed their blinded enemies. Rustam was killed and his army dispersed (636).

"Saad led his unresisted troops to the Tigris, crossed it, and entered Ctesiphon."

The Persian Gulf. Sound familiar?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 31, 2004 - 05:33 am
Here is a SERIES OF MAPS showing changes in the Persian Gulf area from Sumeria to the present day. The rivers change -- the people change -- the cities change -- the empires change -- BUT....

Robby

Bubble
October 31, 2004 - 05:48 am
On the fourth day a sandstorm blew into the faces of the Persians

This to me sounds most familiar. All would be at a standstill, blind, barely breathing and wondering for how long it would be.

Sand storms and flash floods are both unexpected and a terrible danger in the desert.

Traude S
October 31, 2004 - 06:11 am
First I would like to express my gratitude for the wonderful links to Perian carpets and all the information.

ROBBY, re #308, did I miss something Durant said about Mohammed and his LIFE before reporting on what happened after his death in 632?

For an "apparaisal" of Islam, isn't it essential that we first learn about Mohammed the man who became the founder of this new religion and how that came about?

I would prefer a "telling" of the events rather than (or before) Durant's interpretation of same. Especially in this matter, because it was the subject of my thesis six decades ago.

Please tell me which of Durant's passages referring to Mohammed and the birth if Islam I've missed. Thank you.

robert b. iadeluca
October 31, 2004 - 06:43 am
Traude:-You are absolutely correct. We need to know about Mohammed's life. You haven't missed a thing. He just threw Mohammed's name in there to give us a time perspective. Durant will start with his birth and move along throughout his life. There will be much for us to discuss about Islam and we will start that section on November 3, the day after Election Day.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
October 31, 2004 - 07:34 am
What, pray tell, besides vote, do we do between now and then?

TRAUDE, if you open the book to Page 155, you will see a long section on Mohammed, the Koran and Islam. The mention now of Mohammed's death surprised me, too.

I wonder if any of us thought when we began reading and discussing the first volume of the Story of Civilization, "Our Oriental Heritage", that we'd be engaged in two wars in countries where Islam is the predominant religion, at this time of the discussion, or that we'd be so confronted by the knowledge that an understanding of Islam is necessary for us to comprehend what is going on today?

I remember that shortly after the 9/11 tragedy, I did searches on the web about Islam and the Qur'an, about which I was nearly ignorant. There's a wealth of material on the web about these.

Ramadan, the Month of Blessing, began October 16th. Below is a link to a page about Ramadan I set up for Sonata last year. After some revising, this same short description of Ramadan will be seen when the 2004 Holiday issue of Sonata goes on the web shortly after the election.
Ramadan

winsum
October 31, 2004 - 07:57 am
nice discription of ramadan and bubble the collection of rugs is wonderful. I saved it. . . . claire

robert b. iadeluca
October 31, 2004 - 08:51 am
This article does not refer to either Muslims or Jews or Christians but it does show how FAITH can be used to control the masses.

Robby

Persian
October 31, 2004 - 09:06 am
BUBBLE & JOAN - the picture of The Ambassadors is really beautiful. The rug covering the table reminds me of those in my family's homes in Persia. They were also used in larger sizes to cover the divans in the salon (Great Room) and offered an additional warmth during the coldest months. Much smaller ones were sewn into saddle bags or used as a container for presenting special gifts. Others were shaped into large or medium sized storage trunks with metal rods attached inside to hold the shape of the trunk. And whatever purpose they were used for, all the rugs had glorious designs.

BUBBLE - When I read your comments about the piercing pain in your fingertips from working with the carpet threads, I was reminded of weavers whom I met in Persia. The fingertips of the adults were permanently disfigured - it often appeared as though their fingertips had been sliced off! - and those of the children (and there were numerous child weavers), even at the earliest age, were well on their way to disfigurement. This was especially true among the many families of weavers - the trade is handed down through the generations. Such gorgeous craftsmanship, but at such severe physical sacrifice!

MAL - thanks for the link to your beautiful publication on Ramadan. I just forwarded it to my son, David, in Afghanistan. He is often invited to meet with the local Afghans. Your publication will also be appreciated by the American Muslim soldiers with whom David interacts.

winsum
October 31, 2004 - 12:53 pm
One is a really good one about three by four, another I got at cosco and is a bad fake and another i got at may company a million years ago, mostly red and people think it's better than it is, but I keep it under my easle to protect the carpeting. nothing shows on it including all the animal stains. It's the basic geometric pattern all over. . .

I grew up in house which had the really large ones in the living room, dining room, and den (chinese blue and white) and hated them. Had to really grow up to learn to like them. they do "wear like iron" as my mother said.

I can relate to the finger tip pain only mine is caused by recovering my calluses so that they can protect my fingers from the strings on my guitar. I hadn't played for a long time and they were gone. they do chage the shape of my finger tips make them blunt and flat instead of oval but it's not permanent. . . . I"m presently working on getting them back. . . .claire

Fifi le Beau
October 31, 2004 - 01:23 pm
Robby, your article on the Aztecs was interesting but seemed to have little to do with faith as I understand it. The article used the words, "control through intimidation" to describe the outcome.

Someone had to forfeit a heart in the celebration of music, dance, feasting, etc. Someone was slain on the altar for the growing season. These are examples of "control through intimidation", not faith.

In your last posting from Durant where Khalid and his army of Bedouin Arabs are on the march to loot and plunder, Khalid sent the following message to Hormizd the governor of the province they had entered.

'Accept Islam, and thou art safe. Else pay tribute. A people is already upon thee, loving death even as thou lovest life.'

Khalid like the Aztecs uses intimidation. The words "loving death even as thou lovest life", seems more like false bravado than reality. They cower and beg for their life just like everyone else when caught.

The 'accept my faith or you will not be safe' is intimidation also, and double talk for 'convert or die'. It seems to have worked on the peoples they invaded and started their Empire building with this slogan. It's the 'convert or die' intimidator.

At a much later date in history nearer our own time in Khartoum, Sudan the words 'convert or die' was put to a group of nuns taking refuge in the the British consulate. The Islamic warriors put another caveat to their demand, and that was that with conversion must also come marriage. Some of the nuns did as they demanded and married their captors, others died along with the British consul.

Today in Africa the Islamic converts are on the march again, killing and driving out those who do not share their faith. Our SOS Colin Powell calls it genocide. When faith is added to the cauldron of 'power and control' a brew of pure evil results in genocide.

Fifi

robert b. iadeluca
October 31, 2004 - 01:36 pm
Fifi:-

"Astonishingly capable warriors, the Aztec ruling class practiced crowd control through intimidation. And it was easier to scare the lower ranks into submission when the myriad gods, with their proclivity for blood, were given a frighteningly human face."

Weren't the warriors able to control the lower ranks due to their strong faith -- their belief in the god Xochipilli-Macuilxochitl and what he might do to them?

Fifi le Beau
October 31, 2004 - 02:57 pm
No Robbie I think they had no faith in the power of their Gods at all. If so they would not have to present the 'frightening human face' fueled by drugs and scare tactics.

They seemed to have found out through trial and error perhaps that their gods had no power at all, and needed their help along with lots of blood sacrifice.

It's Halloween, they might not even be noticed today.

Fifi

robert b. iadeluca
November 1, 2004 - 03:42 am
"The simple and hardy Arabs gazed in wonder at the royal palace, its mighty arch and marble hall, its enormous carpets and jeweled throne. For ten days they labored to carry off their spoils.

"Perhaps because of these imnpediments, Omar forbade Saad to advance farther east. He said:-'Iraq is enough.' Saad complied and spent the next three years establishing Arab rule throughout Mesopotamia.

"Meanwhile Yezdegird, in his northern provinces, raised another army, 150,000 strong. Omar sent against him 30,000 men.

"At Nahavand superior tactics won the 'Victory of Victories' for the Arabs. One hundred thousand Persians, caught in narrow defiles, were massacred (641).

"Soon all Persia was in Arab hands. Yezdegird fled to Balkh, begged aid of China and was refused. Begged aid of the Turks and was given a small force. As he started outon his new campaign, some Turkish soldiers murdered him for his jewelry (652).

"Sasanian Persia had come to an end."

Any comments about Persia as we end this era?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
November 1, 2004 - 03:48 am
This link takes you to NAHAVAND.

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
November 1, 2004 - 04:30 am
"Saad complied and spent the next three years establishing Arab rule throughout Mesopotamia."

Now who is trying to establish Western rule throughout MESOPOTAMIA?

Éloïse

robert b. iadeluca
November 1, 2004 - 05:25 pm
Tomorrow the majority of us will be casting our vote and then spending most of the remaining day following the returns. On Wednesday morning, we will be starting to examine a civilization in which their religion guides everything -- their family values, their personal relationships, their work ethics -- in effect, their entire life.

Before entering upon this voyage, I urge everyone here to read in its entirety, even printing out if necessary, THIS ARTICLE which may give us pause to think.

See you all early Wednesday, Nov. 3.

Robby

winsum
November 1, 2004 - 08:17 pm
that article is scarey. I made notes and also kept Russel's name and the name of his magazine for future attention. The only answer would be to make proselytizing an officially illegal act. and before that happens they'll have taken over all the power structures in the world. -- a comment must be made even though it's only Nov.1 see you all later. , . claire

3kings
November 1, 2004 - 09:14 pm
wRobbie, re that article... YIKES !! ++ Trevor

Justin
November 1, 2004 - 11:38 pm
THat's the face of the enemy. It is evil and I wish more folks would recognize it but I fear that the average secular bloke will not comment for fear of being descriminatory against someone's religion. Meanwhile, the simplistic evangelical fundementalists march on into our lives and take over. They already have the executive office of government and unless we begin to curb their progress this society is doomed to repeat the Middle Ages.

Malryn (Mal)
November 2, 2004 - 06:43 am
Gee, I could use eighty thousand bucks. I wonder if I go see Brother Ripka he'd pray it possible for me? Actually, I'd settle for less like a couple of K. That might make it easier for our father who art in Otsego, Minn. to handle. Lately I've been receiving emails about paying my bills "the Christian way." Wonder if that means I don't have to put a stamp on the envelope?

In my dreams last night I had the presidential candidates on ducks (those amphibious vehicles) parading down the street toward the creek. I've got the contenders mixed up with the Red Sox and the Cardinals.

As my character Maybelle Brown, American says in my story by the same name in the current issue of Sonata:


"Get out and vote. Get off your butt and go vote!

Scrawler
November 2, 2004 - 12:13 pm
I worked for the state of California for almost 25 years and just before I retired we were told we had to take all personal items out of our cubicles. The reason given was that one person in the office objected to a young woman having a bible in her cubicle. As a result we lived in an evironment with stark white walls and no reminders of the outside world except for the files and books pertaining to our work. As a result people started leaving the office in droves. No one gave the reason as the atmosphere in which worked was the cause given as to why they were leaving, but there were many whispers that this was the cause.

Justin
November 2, 2004 - 02:57 pm
The state of mind of the bureaucrat who was faced with the problem of a Bible in a cubicle might be interesting to explore.

Well, here's an employee of the State with a Bible in her office space. Should I do anything about it or ignore it? Some one has complained. So,I can't ignore it.

If I tell her she can't have it in an office space, she could tell me it's a personal item and other people have pictures of the wife and kiddies on display or she may say it's a token of my religion and it makes me feel comfortable with the word of God next to me.Then what do I do? Am I discriminating against her religious expression? If I ignore the question, am I showing preference for her religion over all those who do not exhibit a bible in their cubicles?

How will this play in the papers and on TV? "Office Manager for the State of CA. shows preference for Bible exhibiting employee." or CA. Office Manager endorses exposed Bible in State office.

What will the Governor say when the ministers and priests show up in his office to complain about the actions of one his employees. The one who defiled the Bible? The one who took God out of California.

Suppose I don't ask her to remove the Bible. The atheists will have us in court for defying the principle of separation of church and state.

So, this what a dilemma looks like? If I ask her to put the objectionable thing in a drawer, out of sight, it is still on State property. If I ask her to remove it, what grounds can I offer?

Ok. Here's the answer. The thing is personal property. I will forbid the display of personal property in State offices. Damn that means I must put away pictures of my wife and kids. What about my pipe and tobacco jar? Things in my pocket? How about the whoopie seat I use for my hemmorhoids, it is not State issue. Are my glasses safe in this ruling? Can I wear my college ring? What about my pants?

Malryn (Mal)
November 2, 2004 - 03:21 pm
Bravo, JUSTIN. That was wonderful.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
November 2, 2004 - 06:03 pm
As we prepare to examine the Islamic religion, let us first see what is going on these days in BAGHDAD where people are saying that they want to be "martyrs to God's glory" and "wanting to die for God."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
November 3, 2004 - 03:44 am
Election Day is over. The election itself, as of this moment, is not yet over. Worldwide, people are watching the results and this, of course, includes those of us here on Story of Civilization. There are many political forums on Senior Net where participants here can voice their happiness or unhappiness and I urge everyone to use them for such reactions.

Here, in this discussion group, we are about to examine what some might consider a topic even more important than the election of 2004 -- that is, exactly who and what we human beings are and what causes us to do what we do, whether it be one particular election in one specific nation at one particular time or whether it be the larger topic of the development of mankind. I ask your cooperation in turning now to Durant and seeing what he says about the more encompassing topic.

If you have not yet done so, please read my links in Posts 324 and 332.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
November 3, 2004 - 04:19 am
I intend to take a slightly different approach as we move through the almost 200 pages Durant devotes to the Islamic Civilization. In the past the approach has been "broad" so to speak. On most occasions I printed out almost a page at a time and sometimes skipped a page which I felt did not alter our perspective.

As we all know, there is one major difference between other civilizations we have discussed and the Islamic Civilization. Unlike other civilizations we have examined, what Durant tells us and what we read in our newspapers and see on our TV will seem extraordinarily similar. Islam is not a dead culture.

I will therefore take a deeper approach. Putting it another way, I will on most occasions print only a paragraph at a time. I have always read ahead of what I print and in reading about Islam have come to realize that almost every paragraph, sometimes every sentence Durant speaks in telling us about Islam is of utmost importance and will evoke reactions of various sorts from you folks. And so while going a paragraph or so at a time might appear to slow down our rate of participation, I believe it will do exactly the opposite. Every person in The Story of Civilization is a thinking person. It will be impossible, in my opinion, not to express a point of view as we compare today's headlines with the birth and growth of Islam.

As I have so often said, none of us here is an "expert." Everyone's point of view is important. PLEASE tell us yours. I am aware that The Story of Civilization has always had a large number of lurkers and hope that some of you who hesitate to tell us your opinion will now do so. The usual ground rules apply -- no names of people on today's political scene and no proselytizing of a specific religion, whether it be your own words or those on a link.

Links will be especially important in this section of "The Age of Faith" and I am looking forward to their wide use. Please try to have the links relate to the sub-topic under discussion and not just about Islam in general. Let us now move forward as we begin to look at today's events through different eyes.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
November 3, 2004 - 04:24 am
Mohammed

570-632

robert b. iadeluca
November 3, 2004 - 04:36 am
"In the year 565 Justinian died, master of a great empire. Five years later Mohammed was born into a poor family in a country three quarters desert, sparsely peopled by nomad tribes whose total wealth could hardly have furnished the sanctuary of St. Sophia.

"No one in those years would have dreamed that withn a century these nomads would conquer half of Byzantine Asia, all Persia and Egypt, most of North Africa, and be on their way to Spain.

"The explosion of the Arabian peninsula into the conquest and conversion of half the Mediterranean world is the most extraordinary phenomenon in medieval history."

Durant is not given to exaggerations. He speaks quietly and succinctly with measured words. But in this case he describes the growth of Islam not as "one of the most" but "THE most extraordinary" phenomenon in medieval history. Here we are a millennium and a half later reading about this civilization in our daily newspapers. And we are no longer in "medieval" times.

The age of Zeus lasted about five centuries. The age of Jupiter perhaps a bit more. What could possibly have been the "power" these illiterate poverty-stricken desert-dwellers in their tents possessed?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
November 3, 2004 - 05:03 am
Here is a SERIES OF MAPS of that area. Choose the ones that interest you and click on them to enlarge them. Allow time for downloading.

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
November 3, 2004 - 08:07 am
Robby, "What could possibly have been the "power" these illiterate poverty-stricken desert-dwellers in their tents possessed?"

Spiritual power is more powerful than money, especially in poverty stricken areas I think and that is why those who have it can overcome those who don't.

Malryn (Mal)
November 3, 2004 - 10:53 am
It was more than spiritual power or faith. When disadvantaged, poverty-stricken people are bonded together by one single thing, they have immense power. Islam was the strongest kind of cement. It gave and promised these people much more than they had. As with Christianity, spreading this faith, through war and conquest if necessary, became a huge (and attainable) goal in their minds. This has lasted with these two religions through 2000 years and continues today.

Frankly, it scares me to death. Only if I'm asked will I say why.

Mal

Bubble
November 3, 2004 - 11:05 am
Intolerant beliefs are always scary...

Mary W
November 3, 2004 - 11:05 am
This is not a political question- it is a philosiphical question.

Are we on the threshold of a new age of faith? I do not remember a time in my long life when religion played a major part in a national Amercan election (with the exception of the 1928 campaign of Al Smith).

The rise of conservative and evangelical religious all over the world is obvious.

What does it denote?

It concerns me greatly.

JoanK
November 3, 2004 - 11:17 am
ROBBY: great maps.

Looking at the map of the Mediterranean basin made me realize more clearly that that sea has been a silent participant in our discussion for some time. Most of the civilizations we studied border it. You may have discussed this before I joined. I assume that it was easier to sail than the ocean, so the nations that border it enjoyed more trade and contact with other cultures and this stimulated rich cultures. (Of course there were also rich cultures developing in Asia: the Mediterranean did not have a monopoly on them).

robert b. iadeluca
November 3, 2004 - 12:15 pm
"Arabia is the largest of all pininsulas -- 1400 miles in its greatest length, 1250 in its greatest width. Geologically it is a continuation of the Sahara, part of the sandy belt that runs up through Persia to the Gobi Desert.

"'Arab' means arid. Physically Arabia is a vast plateau, rising precipitously to 12,000 feet within thirty miles of the Red Sea, and sloping through mountainous wastelands eastward to the Persian Gulf.

"In the center are some grassy oases and palm-studded villages, where water can be reached by shallow wells. Around this nucleus the sands stretch in every direction for hundrreds of miles. Snow falls there once in forty years.

"The nights cool down to 38 degrees Fahrenheit. The daily sun burns the face and boils the blood. The sand-laden air necessitates long robes and head-bands to guard flesh and hair. The skies are almost always clear, the air 'like sparkling wine.'

"Along the coasts an occasional torrent of rain brings the possibility of civilization -- most of all on the western littoral, in the Hejaz district with the cities of Mecca and Medina -- and southward in the district of Yeman, the home of the ancient kingdoms of Arabia."

A climate which most of us here are not acquainted with, especially year in and year out. We can see that those robes and head-bands are not simply for show.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
November 3, 2004 - 12:45 pm
A MAP of the Arabian Peninsula showing the location of Mecca and Medina on the western coast.

robert b. iadeluca
November 3, 2004 - 12:54 pm
A RELIEF MAP of the Arabian Peninsula.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
November 3, 2004 - 01:08 pm
Here is an extremely interesting ARTICLE showing the tribal life of the Arabian nomads -- how it is now and how it was before the arrival of Islam.

Robby

winsum
November 3, 2004 - 01:31 pm
nice links. I printed out the relief map for reference and am going to visit the people. . . enjoying this. . . claire

I'mback no cup of tea but an interesting visit.

"All members of the same clan consider each other as of one blood and superior."

common here today . . .we called it ETHNOCENTRACISM in college classes back in the forties. It seems to be a human trait. It helps us to support each other, the basis of our common security, even when we have differences as in today.. . re our recent political experience.

Justin
November 3, 2004 - 03:16 pm
Mary, Mal,Bubble; This introductory geography may pull us away from your concerns about the scarey aspects of religions and the religious but I think we need an introduction that prepares us to face up to the problem and as we examine Islam let us clearly be aware, paragraph by paragraph, of what it is about Islam that scares us. Let us look for the ingredients that cause the problem.

Mal, I know, thinks war is avoidable but the religious in concert with those seeking economic advantage have been the cause of most of the wars we have seen. We learned in school that nationalism was the great threat to peace but we were wrong. Now there are two great religious groups in the world seeking dominance for their idea of God. The frustrating part is they are both "blowing smoke."

I am going to predict that we find that Islam differs little from Christianity. It has appeal for the unwary because the unwary fear the unknown and both Christianity and Islam offer a palatable response. In and of itself that is not alarming. The scarey part is the priesthood, and the lay opportunist. Together they manipulate this great mass of believers to their advantage and to the detriment of all.

robert b. iadeluca
November 3, 2004 - 03:23 pm
"As we examine Islam let us clearly be aware, paragraph by paragraph, of what it is about Islam that scares us. Let us look for the ingredients that cause the problem."

Thank you for that, Justin. Very well put. We need to go all the way back to the beginning in order to locate the "ingredients." Let us build a solid foundation of our understandings so that we don't later find ourselves going off on a tangent.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
November 3, 2004 - 03:45 pm
No, JUSTIN, I no longer feel that war is avoidable. The more history I read, and the more of the Story of Civilization I discuss with all of you and study, the more I think we humans are too soon out of the jungle to be able to think there is any other tactics besides that of war to solve problems.

Islam doesn't scare me any more than Christianity does. What scares me is the narrowing of the separation between church and state in my own and other countries and the prospect of another Crusade.

When human beings believe they are right and know the truth without leaving any room for even tolerating anything that is different, never mind trying to understand it, I become afraid.

I hope, in this study of Islam that I'll have a better comprehension of what this religion is and have more understanding, and, yes, tolerance. I don't ever expect to have an understanding of what cannot be called mass hysteria, but resembles it, among human beings. That I admit.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
November 3, 2004 - 03:47 pm
"A Babylonian inscription of approximately 2400 B.C. records the defeat of a king of Magan by the Babylonian ruler Naram-Sin. Magan was the capital of a Minaean kingdom in southwest Arabia. Twenty-five of its later kings are known from Arabian inscriptions that go back to 800 B.C.

"An inscription tentatively ascribed to 2300 B.C. mentions another Arabian kingdom, Saba, in Yemen. From Saha or its North Arabian colonies, it is now agreed, the Queen of Sheba 'went up' to Solomon about 950 B.C.

"The Sabaean kings made their capital at Marib, fought the usual wars of 'defense,' built great irrigation works like the Marib dams (whose ruins are still visible), raised gigantic castles and temples, subsidized religion handsomely, and used it as an instrument of rule. Their inscriptions -- probably not older than 900 B.C. -- are beautifully carved in an alphabetical script.

"The Sabaeans produced the frankincense and myrrh that played so prominent a role in Asiatic and Egyptian rituals. They controlled the sea trade between India and Egypt, and the south end of the caravan route that led through Mecca and Medina to Petra and Jerusalem.

"About 115 B.C. another petty kingdom of southwest Arabia, the Himyarite, conquered Saba, and thereafter controlled Arabian trade for several centuries.

"In 25 B.C. Augustus, irked by Arabian control of Egyptian-Indian commerce, sent an army under Aelius Gallus to capture Marib. The legions were misled by native guides, were decimated by heat and disease, and failed in their mission.

"Another Roman army captured the Arab port of Adana (Aden) and gave control of the Egypt-India route to Rome. (Britain repeated this procedure in our time)."

I live in a civilization that is pretty much knowledgeable about the entire world (never mind the moon and planets). I find myself, therefore, constantly forgetting that as we pass through these four volumes with their diverse civilizations, we are talking about a very very small area in the entire world's land mass. Whether we are talking about the Minaean kingdom, the homeland of Queen Sheba, the Sabeans, Rome, India, or Egypt -- we are talking about various cultures which are just "down the road a piece" from each other so to speak.

We might have been examining each culture separately but the Romans knew the Egyptians were there, the Egyptians knew the Arabians were there, the Arabians knew that India was there, etc. The nomadic tribes of the Arabian peninsula might have been rather primitive compared to the glories of Rome or Persia, but they were there "hidden" in the stage wings waiting for their turn.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
November 3, 2004 - 04:01 pm
Click HERE to learn about the trade routes between Arabia and Rome & Greece. Click onto the bottom map to enlarge it.

There's that famous Persian Gulf again!

Robby

Traude S
November 3, 2004 - 04:01 pm
ROBBY, in #342 you said " ... what Durant tells us and what we read in our newspapers and see on our TV ..."

Between these two sources of information (which are by no means equal in my opinion) I retain the memory of the research I did sixty years ago.

As I've said elsewhere (albeit without any reaction), it is essential that we study the very beginning of Mohammed's life as a trader and his sojourns in the desert, where the Archangel Gabriel allegedly visited him; how his new belief (mixing pagan rites with Judaic and Christian concepts) evolved; why his fellow Meccans were hostile, unreceptive and threatened to kill him : the reason for his flight to Medina.



And we need to know particularly what factors/motives/conditions, after Mohammed's death under the successive caliphs, made the Arabs set out to conquer the surrounding regions and spearhead their invansions in all directions, in the West penetrating into Spain, Sicily and Southern Italy where they established flourishing civilizations in the Middle Ages.

What was the original message and mission of Islam ? Did it change in character, and if so why?

robert b. iadeluca
November 3, 2004 - 04:02 pm
Click HERE to learn about the trade routes between Arabia and Rome & Greece. Click onto the bottom map to enlarge it.

Note the reference to Somalia which is so much in the news these days. And there's that famous Persian Gulf again!

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
November 3, 2004 - 04:08 pm
If we don't always react to a comment of yours, Traude, it doesn't mean that we haven't absorbed it.

As we move along, I am sure we will learn the original message and mission of Islam and then note if it changes.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
November 3, 2004 - 04:22 pm
Here are the descriptions of FRANKINCENSE AND MYRRH. Now that you know, the Christmas story will never be the same.

Robby

moxiect
November 3, 2004 - 04:40 pm


Hi Robby!

I find myself repeating again and again. "Man's interpretation of past and present culture, tolerance/intolerance."

winsum
November 3, 2004 - 05:03 pm
is here but is very frustrating because the lists aren't hot links, however I think google probably can find them. http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hi/st_islamic_art.htm llisting during three periods. a resource of sorts. . . . claire

robert b. iadeluca
November 3, 2004 - 05:19 pm
A good link for Islamic art, Claire, but you are a bit early. Mohammed hasn't even been born yet never mind the start of Islam.

Robby

winsum
November 3, 2004 - 05:44 pm
anyhow that timeline site does have wonderful images once yo find them here http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/images/hb/hb_59.34.jpg claire

robert b. iadeluca
November 3, 2004 - 05:54 pm
Claire:-Maybe I didn't explain myself properly. As the GREEN quotes in the Heading above indicate and as the words of Durant that I print show us, we are still in the beginning of this section where we will be reading about Arabia before we get to the birth and activities of Mohammed. It is important that we all stay together in our discussion and follow the sub-topics in the GREEN quotes or we can end up confusing ourselves with cross postings.

So as far as our discussion is concerned, Mohammed hasn't been born yet.

Robby

winsum
November 3, 2004 - 06:06 pm
you also mmentoned the present anyhow here is something from 10,000bc to 8,000 bc. which is from the same site. it's a great place for almost any period as it has the early one as well. http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/eyna/hd_eyna.htm and has maps for the entire region relative to whatever time period one could wish. . . . claire

robert b. iadeluca
November 3, 2004 - 06:13 pm
What we try to do here is to relate the present to what is being discussed at the moment. If, for example, you were able to bring up a link showing any nomads currently living in the Arabian desert and what their life is like now -- or a link showing present uses of frankincense or myrrh -- or present-day trade routes in Arabia, then those would be subjects related to what we are currently discussing.

Those maps you brought up are very good.

Robby

JoanK
November 3, 2004 - 06:23 pm
Your link on the Bedouins says they no longer follow their traditional life style. This was not you true when I lived in the Negev in the 1960s. many Bedouins lived in the desert near Beer Sheva where I lived, and would come into town on market days to buy and sell, hitching their camels to hitching posts.

A friend of mine was a nurse who would visit the Bedouin camps periodically. She would inoculate the children, and do TB tests. The Bedouins often spent the winter (rainy) months in damp caves, and TB was common. I accompanied her on one of those visits: the story may be interesting:

We drove in a jeep to a spot in the dessert where we were to meet our guide. This was a man who claimed to know where the Bedouins were camping that day. Since they are nomads and move every few days, this was important. We drove over desert with no road or other sign that human beings existed for some time and stopped. I have no idea how the driver told this spot from any other in the desert. While we were waiting, over a rise came a Bedouin on the most beautiful horse I've ever seen. he dashed across our line of vision and disappeared. That is their prince my friend explained showing off his Arabian horse.

Soon our guide appeared and talked for a long time with our driver. We drove off and, after some trial and error found an encampment with several large black tents. We went in the largest and were given cups of a strong (I remember coffee rather than tea). My friend started her inoculations while I waited.

A ways away from the big tent was a smaller one: some children were in front of it playing a game with stones. I was surprised to see that they were black. These are the Bedouin's slaves, my friend explained. No one knows where they came from, although there is speculation they came with the Queen of Sheba. They have been enslaved to the Bedouins for generations. The Israeli government of course has legally freed them, but they stay. Where would they go: they know no other life.

robert b. iadeluca
November 3, 2004 - 06:27 pm
That is a fascinating story, Joan. Just another example of the necessity of our not judging people in other cultures by our lifestyle.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
November 3, 2004 - 06:39 pm
This ARTICLE speaks to pastoral society and slavery in East Africa, eg Somalia and Ethiopia which are near Arabia.

Robby

Justin
November 3, 2004 - 06:43 pm
The Incense Route is quite confusing. It begins and ends on opposite sides of the Caspian sea and midway it crosses the Arabian Sea. In the west it moves north on the eastern shore of the Red Sea. It is the east to west crossing that is troublesome. Crossing the Arabian Sea is no mean feat. The caravans must have come to Karachi on the eastern shore and then back-tracked to Qasab at the head of the Gulf of Oman where a crossing might not be so difficult. They must have ferried the camels across at Qasab. Does any one know how this was accomplished. It all seems so complicated and caravans were known to take the long way around but there is no way around the Arabian Sea.

The use of frankincense and muir in religious ceremonies in Egypt made the market. The Eastern Kings in the Nativity story carried it as a gift to the new King of the Jews. Why would they do that?

The smell is pleasant. I burn Frankincense in my fireplace. A sprinkling gives a pleasant odor for a few moments.

winsum
November 3, 2004 - 06:59 pm
here he is. look for more in the pbs club site. . . http://www.pbs.org/muhammad/transcripts/voll.html

claire

moxiect
November 3, 2004 - 07:19 pm


Facinating!

Traude S
November 3, 2004 - 07:58 pm
Thank you, ROBBY, but my post was not an indication that I wanted to be "acknowledged" (not my style).

Rather, I was referring to comments I had made elsewhere, i.e. in other discussions where questions about Islam were raised, specifically about its influence- right here, right now . At the time I said that cannot be accomplished IMO without considering the origins and the developments of Islam through the centuries.

The linked article about Christian ministries in the workplace left me profoundly disturbed. There is a very fine line, as outlined in the article, but the danger inherent in this happily spreading "movement" is barely hinted at and deserves a closer look.

My computer will not give me access to the link about frankincense and myrrh.

winsum
November 3, 2004 - 08:03 pm
your remark "Christian ministries in the workplace left me profoundly disturbed" feels right to me also. I've read that the purpose of this religious movement is to take over the country politically and it looks like they just did it. . . very disturbing. but they are not muslims and I don't think they share this purpose.

Claire

robert b. iadeluca
November 3, 2004 - 08:15 pm
"In the second century before Christ some Himyarites crossed the Red Sea, colonized Abyssinia, and gave the indigenous Negro population a Semite culture and considerable Semitic blood.

"The term Semitic is due to the Legendary derivation of the peoples so called from Shem, son of Noah (Gen. x.1)

"No clear definition of Semite can be given. In general the populations of Syria, Palestine, Mesopotamia, and Arabia, and the Arab populations of Africa may be called Semitic in the sense that they use semitic languages.

"The ancient peoples of Asia Minor, Armenia, and the Caucasus, and the peoples of Persia, North India, most of Europe, and all of the Europeanized Americas may be called 'Indo-European' as using Indo-Germanic tongues.

"The Abyssinians received Christianity, crafts, and arts from Egypt and Byzantium. Their merchant vessels sailed as far as India and Ceylon. Seven little kingdoms acknowledgd the Negus as their sovereign.

"Meanwhile in Arabia many Himyarites followed the lead of their king Dhu-Nuwas and accepted Judaism. With a convert's zeal Dhu-Nuwas persecuted the Christians of southwest Arabia. They called to their coreligionists to rescue them. The Abyssinians came, conquered the Himyarite kings (A.D. 522), and replaced them with an Abyssinian dynasty.

"Justinian allied himself with this new state. Persia countered by taking up the cause of the deposed Himyarites, driving out the Abyssinians, and setting up in Yeman (575) a Persian rule that ended some sixty years later with the Moslem conquest of Persia."

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
November 3, 2004 - 09:02 pm
Pictures of Bedouins in the Sinai Desert. Click right arrow to see more.

Bedouins: a painting by John Singer Sargent

Bedouin encampment near the Sea of Galilee

HubertPaul
November 3, 2004 - 09:29 pm
Justin: “...We learned in school that nationalism was the great threat to peace but we were wrong.

Not completely wrong; may be not the greatest threat, but a threat just the same.

Justin
November 3, 2004 - 09:57 pm
I agree Hubert, it is one of several threats though I think it's a diminished threat today and of course, it has been a major threat in the past. I think I was a little carried away.

Justin
November 3, 2004 - 10:03 pm
Traude: Thanks for a correct spelling of myrrh.

JoanK
November 4, 2004 - 02:37 am
The Muhammad link is great. Sometimes Durant goes into so much detail, I lose sight of the overall picture. That put me back in context.

Thanks for the Bedouin links. The ones in the last photo look a lot poorer than the ones I met. Sergeant's painting is great: very haunting.

robert b. iadeluca
November 4, 2004 - 03:59 am
Excellent Bedouin links, Mal.

Robby

Bubble
November 4, 2004 - 04:03 am
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. -Bertrand Russell, philosopher, mathematician, author, Nobel laureate (1872-1970)

cilice (SIL-is) noun 1. An undergarment of haircloth, worm by monks in penance. 2. Haircloth.

[From Old English cilic, from Latin cilicium, from Greek kilikion, from kilikios (Cilician). This cloth was originally made of Cilician goats' hair. Cilicia was an ancient region in southeast Asia Minor which later became part of the Roman Empire. It's now part of southern Turkey.]

No more hairy undergarments now -- modern cilices are usually made of wires and studded with spikes.
From "A.Word.A.Day"

Before we leave Christianity: do the monks still use that nowadays. anyone knows?

robert b. iadeluca
November 4, 2004 - 04:16 am
"In the north some minor Arab kingdoms flourished briefly. The sheiks of the Ghassanid tribe ruled northwestern Arabia and Palmyrene Syria from the third to the seventh century as phylarchs, or client kings, of Byzantium. During the same period the Lakhmid kings established at Hira, near Babylon, a semi-Persian court and culture famous for its music and poetry.

"Long before Mohammed the Arabs had expanded into Syria and Iraq.

"Aside from these petty kingdoms of south and north, and to a large extent within them, the political organization of pre-Islamic Arabia was a primitive kinship structure of families united in clans and tribes. Tribes were named from a supposed common ancestor. The bani-Ghassan thought themselves the 'children of Ghassan.'

"Arabia as a political unit, before Mohammed, existed only in the careless nomenclature of the Greeks, who called all the population of the peninsula Sarakenoi, Saracens, apparently from the Arabic sharqiyun, 'Easterners.'

"Diffculties of communication compelled local or tribal self-sufficiency and particularism. The Arab felt no duty or loyalty to any group larger than his tribe, but the intensity of his devotion varied inversely as its extent. For his tribe he would do with a clear conscience what civilized people do only for their country, religion, or 'race' -- i.e. lie, steal, kill, and die.

"Each tribe or clan was loosely ruled by a sheik chosen by its leaders from a family traditionally prominent through wealth or wisdom or war."

As we examine Iraq in our time, Durant here is helping us to see the centuries-old importance of tribes in that area. Just another item which is difficult for some in the Western Civilization to learn and understand. Or, as he puts it, doing exactly the same thing that we "civilized" people do for our "nation-tribe" -- lie, steal, kill, or die.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
November 4, 2004 - 04:26 am
An excellent detailed article on the IMPORTANCE OF TRIBES in the Arab world.

Robby

Bubble
November 4, 2004 - 04:29 am
As someone mentionned, nomads Bedouins have become more mercenary and sell theit hospitality and local color to tourists especiaslly that those are more than willing to pay (in Sinai). Nevertheless, once they know the persons, on recurring visits, the hospitality sparks back to life and they go out of their ways to help and provide the necessity for a visit in the desert.

My daughter used to spend all ther holidays and free time camping in Sinai - that is up to the last Tabah tragedy. She said that the only other place matching such hospitality was to be found among the paysans of Thailand. Both these people enjoy leading a leisure life, sitting on their haunches to have a friendly talk and curious about asking numerous questions, offering refreshments without restrain. They are always smiling and never in a hurry. They usually don't have high ambitions except for acquiring learning for their children.

robert b. iadeluca
November 4, 2004 - 04:30 am
An excellent detailed article on the IMPORTANCE OF TRIBES in the Arab world.

Robby

Bubble
November 4, 2004 - 04:37 am
Great article on tribes, it makes it even clearer to realize that this system has endured since Biblical times. It was the only viable one in desertic, nomadic life with slow or no communications with other worlds.

robert b. iadeluca
November 4, 2004 - 04:59 am
An excellent detailed article on the IMPORTANCE OF TRIBES in the Arab world.

Robby

Bubble
November 4, 2004 - 05:06 am
Should we read it three times?

robert b. iadeluca
November 4, 2004 - 05:31 am
It probably wouldn't hurt, Bubble!!

Robby

Scrawler
November 4, 2004 - 12:14 pm
I live in an area where it rains nine months out of the year, so to me place where: "The skies are almost always clear, the air 'like sparkling wine" would be like heaven on earth. The extreme heat during the day would bother me though.

Sunknow
November 4, 2004 - 02:34 pm
About the Tribes.....since as you say, the nomadic life was "with slow or no communications with other worlds"....how then has their history passed down to us? With tribes scattered here and there, even in organized communities, would they not be speaking different dialects, or languages sometimes, from one tribe to another? It would seem the history must be passed more by word of mouth. Were "books" written, records kept?

This puzzles me about all ancient history, and ancient people. How did their history manage to survive? Where did Durant and/or other historians find all this fascinating information?

Sun

winsum
November 4, 2004 - 03:01 pm
must have been written about 2000 because in many respects it's out of date, but it does give a picture of the divergent forces at work there and the difficulty involved with trying to unite them into a new democratic form of government. I believe that the clan power would still be important even as the states rights groups were in the beginning and even now here. witness different state laws concerning marriage. . . . Claire

winsum
November 4, 2004 - 03:05 pm
How do we know? The first writings about Muhammad told us much about every day life. see a link back a little ways which gives an overview. and before that we rely on our specialists in anthropology and related scientists. . . . . claire

Persian
November 4, 2004 - 03:56 pm
SUN - oral histories have served as the great records of time, as well as the "visuals" (i.e., hieroglyphs of Egypt and China). In more contemporary times, traders and craftsmen who traveled the globe brought back historical commentaries of the regions which they visited and of the people with whom they conducted their business. There are historical Jewish and Muslim communities in Western and Southeastern China which were established in ancient times, almost totally disappeared for generations, and were revised again in later periods.

Early Jews and Christians had a strong oral presence in the ancient biblical lands. Their Holy Books are wonderful records, as is the later Qur'an of Islam. And individuals learned in the historical aspects of culture, language (including dialects), religion, tribal traditions and ethnicity carry on the exploration of ancient civilizations (just as do our Native Americans), turning their findings into what we expect of our specialists today.

It is NOT uncommon in the Middle East to find individuals (usually men) who can repeat tribal, clan and family history verbatim from that learned from past generations. This was especially true among the Hashemites - most notably, the late King Hussein of Jordan was very skilled in recalling his tribal oral history as far back as the Prophet Muhammad.

Shasta Sills
November 4, 2004 - 05:19 pm
Lots of great posts and links today. I really enjoyed reading them. I've wondered why Hussein murdered all those Kurds. Was it because they were interfering with his efforts to control Iraq?

Fifi le Beau
November 4, 2004 - 07:48 pm
I read with interest Joan's post on the Bedouins that she met in the 1960's in the desert, and an article that had been posted that said they no longer followed the Bedouin lifestyle.

There are still Bedouins in Iraq that follow that lifestyle. In one of the books on the current war in Iraq, the writer went into Iraq with the First Marine Recon as an imbedded reporter. He told about an incident where they were moving in their humvees ahead of others toward an airstrip in the desert. The gunner saw something running in the distance and asked what to do. The Sgt. told him to 'light them up'. He fired his 'saw' machine gun, and one of the others looking through his scope told him they were camels. They drove on until they found the airfield. It was deserted.

In a short while they saw someone approaching them in long black robes pulling something behind them. It was a mother pulling her small son in a wrap along the ground. He had been shot in the midsection and was dying. The other son was soon carried in also shot. The mother said the boys had been sent to get the camels who were frightened by the humvees. The camels were dead and her sons were dying. The Navy medic tried to help the children.

Their interpeter said they were Bedouins who moved often and lived in black tents like the ones they had seen along the way to their destination. According to the writer they saw quite a few Bedouin from the Kuwait border to Bagdad, alone in their tents in the middle of the desert away from towns or villages.

Joan's mention of the black slaves who belonged to the Bedouin she saw is not surprising since Saudi Arabia did not officially end slavery in that country until 1963. Even with the legal end the slaves stayed on, for most had been born there as had their parents, grandparents, etc. plus they had nowhere to go.

Fifi

robert b. iadeluca
November 4, 2004 - 08:30 pm
Thanks to everyone for all those great postings!

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
November 4, 2004 - 08:38 pm
"In the villages men coaxed some grains and vegetables from the unwilling soil, raised a few cattle, and bred some fine horses. But they found it more profitable to cultivate orchards of dates, peaches, apricots, pomegranates, lemons, oranges, bananas, and figs.

"Some nursed aromatic plants like frankincense, thyme, jasmine, and lavender. Some pressed itr or attar from highland roses. Some cupped trees to draw myrrh or balsam from the trunks.

"Possibly a twelfth of the population lived in cities on or near the west coast. Here was a succession of harbors and markers for Red Sea commerce, while further inland lay the great caravan routes to Syria.

"We hear of Arabian trade with Egypt as far back as 2743 B.C., probably as ancient was the trade with india. Annual fairs called merchants now to one town, now to another. The great annual fair at Ukaz, near Mecca, brought together hundreds of merchants, actors, preachers, gamblers, poets, and prostitutes."

As I look back at the various civilizations we have visited, fairs always seemed to be popular social gatherings. Mankind appears to need socialization.

And 1/12 of the population living in cities means to me me that 11/12 of the population were exceedingly rural and separated from the general "goings-on" of men and women.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
November 4, 2004 - 08:59 pm
The history of FAIRS.

Robby

Persian
November 4, 2004 - 11:09 pm
In his book, CARAVANS (set in the 1940's after WWII), James Michneer writes of the marvelous diversity of the bedouins of Central Asia as they travel annually through India, Afghanistan, Russia, the Northern areas now known as the NIS and Pakistan. His description of their annual gathering - a FAIR in the true sense of the word - is astonishing in its scope and numbers.

The bedouins of Southern Iran are much more prosperous than those in the Gulf, continuing to tend enormous herds (which require vast acres of grazing), but also experimenting with commercial ventures during the past several generations.

Hundreds of the Gulf bedouins are now sending representatives to the United Arab Emirates to participate in the 40 day mourning period occasioned by the recent death of the head of the UAE.

Many of the bedouin clans of Jordan have turned their hand to tourism (under the guidance of Queen Noor) helping to attract thousands of visitors to the country's magnificent historical sites.

I'm acquainted with Middle Easterners (now residing in the USA)from historically bedouin families, who travel en masse back to their home countries the moment the American schools break for summer vacation. They continue this custom in much the same way (and with the same enthusiasm) that Latinos return to their birth countries from the USA to celebrate the Cinco de Mayo or the Christmas holidays.

robert b. iadeluca
November 5, 2004 - 04:52 am
"Five sixths of the population were nomad Bedouins, herdsmen who moved with their flocks from one pastureland to another according to season and the winter rains.

"The Bedouin loved horses but in the desert the camel was the greatest friend. It pitched and rolled with undulent dignity, and made only eight miles an hour but it could go without water five days in summer and twenty-five in winter. Its udders gave milk, its urine provided hair tonic, its dung could be burned for fuel. When it died it made tender meat and its hair and hide made clothing and tents.

"With such varied sustenance the Bedouin could face the desert, as patient and enduring as his camel, as sensitive and spirited as his horse. Short and thin, well-knit and strong, he could live day after day on a few dates and a little milk. From dates he made the wine that raised him out of the dust into romance. He varied the routine of his life with love and feud, and was as quick as a Spaniard (who inherited his blood) to avenge insult and injury, not only for himself but for his clan.

"A good part of his life was spent in tribal war. When he conquered Syria, Persia, Egypt, and Spain, it was but an exuberant expansion of his plundering razzias or raids.

"Certain periods in the year he conceded to the 'holy truce' for religious pilgrimage or for trade. Otherwise, he felt, the desert was his. Whoever crossed it, except in that time, or without paying him tribute, was an interloper. To rob such trespassers was an unusually straighforward form of taxation.

"He despised the city because it meant law and trade. He loved the merciless desert because it left hm free. Kindly and murderous, generous and avaricious, dishonest and faithful, cautious and brave, the Bedouin, however poor, fronted the world with dignity and pride, vain of the purity of his inbred blood, and fond of adding his lineage to his name."

Once again Durant is helping those of us of Western heritage to understand the genes and environment of these people who are so "strange" to our way of life.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
November 5, 2004 - 05:08 am
An absolutely marvelous article about THE CAMEL - THE SHIP OF THE DESERT.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
November 5, 2004 - 05:18 am
Learn all about BEDOUINS AND HORSES.

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
November 5, 2004 - 05:57 am
Robby, your link #401 of The first Red Sea interactive map is great. I can just imagine a road sign in the city showing a camel, it could mean, "be patient, this is just a traffic jam, no need to get excited and honk your horn".

I have read almost all of Mitchener's historical novel Mahlia, but not "Caravans", I must read it.

The posts on the lives of the Bedouins are so interesting.

Éloïse

Malryn (Mal)
November 5, 2004 - 11:12 am
I was interested in Bedouin music and found this site. Scroll down to find a link to a WAV file which contains the sound of what's called a Bedouin Flourish.

The Bedouin Way

Malryn (Mal)
November 5, 2004 - 11:18 am
Ababda. Bedouins of the Eastern desert. Click right arrow at bottom of page to see several more pages

Scrawler
November 5, 2004 - 11:21 am
Mitchener's "Caravans" is a wonderful read. His research is remarkable and when you read the book you become a part of it so much that you can feel like you are really there. I learned a lot about that part of the world by reading Michener's book.

winsum
November 5, 2004 - 11:37 am
a C-span talking head this morning made an interesting observation which wouldn't have caught my eye except for this discussion. The republican base-plus, won because it is TRIBLE. and now that I understand the dynamics of the "tribe" I can understand what happened Nov. 2.

Justin
November 5, 2004 - 01:31 pm
Claire: I think "tribal" is an unusual but enlightening way of describing the Republican base-plus. Religion is the tribe and the various sects the sub-tribes. The Daily Mirror asks in headlines "How can 54,800,000 people be so dumb?" Tribal loyalty may be the very answer.

Robby: Sometimes the connection between the past and the present is more immediate.

Justin
November 5, 2004 - 01:38 pm
So few Medieval historians treat pre and post Islam in depth that we should give Durant three cheers for his 200 pages plus. He makes a signifcant contribution and at a time when we are starving for information about this portion of the world.

Shasta Sills
November 5, 2004 - 02:45 pm
I just don't understand it! Dietitions today keep telling us all the things we need to eat to stay healthy. Five or six different vegetables a day, vitamin supplements. And yet those Bedoins, "short and thin, well-knit and strong, could live day after day on a few dates and a little milk." Why do we need so much food to stay healthy, and those people can stay healthy on so little?

3kings
November 5, 2004 - 03:59 pm
SHASTA. A correct diet is achieved by having a necessary intake of minerals and vitamins, and maintaining a balance between energy intake and expenditure.

If we have too little, or too much, of either of these food categories, we will not be in the best of health. Bedouins probably had too little to eat, hence high infant mortality, while in the present day West we clearly have far too much.

The point of balance is a shifting fulcrum throughout our lives, which makes it difficult to maintain the proper intake. I know since my retirement, while I eat less than when working, I still eat more than I need, hence my overweight. ( Depressing, isn't it ?)++ Trevor

robert b. iadeluca
November 5, 2004 - 04:36 pm
As we continue to go through Durant's volumes, my respect for his ability increases. For example -- other historians might have started their discussion of Islam with the birth of Mohammed. Durant, on the other hand, is giving us an introductory in-depth comprehension of the mind, heart, and soul of the nomads who later moved into the Islam religion. I have no doubt that as we go deeper into the Muslim culture, thanks to Durant we will better understand their thoughts and behavior.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
November 5, 2004 - 04:51 pm
"On one point above all the Bedouin brooked no argument, and that was the incomparable beauty of his women. It was a dark, fierce, consuming beauty, worth a million odes, but brief with the tragic hasty fading of hot climes.

"Before Mohammed -- and after him, only slightly less so -- the career of the Arab woman passed from a moment's idolatry to a lifetime of drudgery. She might be buried at birth if the father so willed. At best he mourned her coming and hid his face from his fellows. Somehow his best efforts had failed.

"Her winsome childhood earned a few years of love but at seven or eight she was married off to any youth of the clan whose father would offer the purchase price for the bride. Her lover and husband would fight the world to defend her person or honor. Some of the seeds and fustian of chivalry went with these passionate lovers to Spain.

"But the goddess was also a chattel. She formed part of the estate of her father, her husband, or her son and was bequeathed with it. She was always the servant, rarely the comrade, of the man. He demanded many children of her, or rather many sons. Her duty was to produce warriors.

"She was, in many cases, but one of his many wives. He could dismiss her at any time at will."

As I am beginning to see it, this attitude toward women was not a result of any specific religion but was handed down through the centuries from primieval times.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
November 5, 2004 - 06:08 pm
Here are PHOTOS of Bedouins. Enlarge the photo of the Bedouin Woman and Child.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
November 5, 2004 - 06:27 pm
Here is an ARTICLE about Bedouin women and Jewellry.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
November 5, 2004 - 06:28 pm
Picture: Bedouin woman

Bedouin women

Bedouin woman

Persian
November 5, 2004 - 07:06 pm
ROBBY - Indeed the tedious repression of women is NOT due to Islam, but to the tribal traditions. Islam teaches (as we will see further along in the discussion) and the Prophet Muhammad encouraged, respect for women, protection of them, a sense of deep-felt honor for them in the family, and a share of inheritance (less for women, since they usually do not have the financial responsibility for as many family members as men do). Even among the bedouin (as is clearly described in James Michener's CARAVANS), women have a voice (albeit not a public one) on family issues and major decisions affecting the tribe and/or clan.

Many years ago, one of my colleagues at the National Institutes of Health introduced a group of us to his mother, who was visiting from abroad. My colleague is from a bedouin background, was educated in medical schools in Europe and was on a visiting appointment at NIH. However, his mother had retained her residence in her tribal village and traveled seasonally with the clan. As I turned to meet his mother, I froze: I'd NEVER been in the presence of such an intimidating woman - and I've met a lot of bedouin women. Tall (which is NOT unusual for the Northern tribal women, whereas the Southern women are much shorter), ramrod straight posture, eyes that seemed to be looking right through me and into a distant world, and a bearing and manner that only a well respected woman could maintain. It was surely a memorable experience for me!

If, as noted in an earlier post, the bedouin seem so unusual to the Westerner, perhaps it would help to think of them in much the same way as we learned about Native Americans - of which many tribes/clans were once nomadic and traveled with the Seasons, essentially sharing some of the same customs as the bedouin of the Middle East, Central Asia and North Africa. However, whereas the Native Americans have suffered great loss of dignity in the USA, the bedouin maintain a fierce tribal and clan dignity, even among those who are the poorest.

Traude S
November 5, 2004 - 07:14 pm
JUSTIN, re #407, the same old strategies, the same obtuseness ...

Re #408. Exactly: there are few reliable historical data available on the spread of Islam, and that is due to the overriding influence/control of the Catholic Church. It considered Islam its mortal enemy, distored, falsified and simply suppressed information that was considered "inconvenient". We aren't at that point yet by a long shot, so I'll hold back until then.

Traude S
November 5, 2004 - 07:40 pm
MAHLIA, I well remember our discussion in B&L of Michener's CARAVANS in 2001, now archived, which I led. It was a lively, timely and highly informative discussion, and you were an important part of it.

Unfortunately, I was hospitalized in the middle of the discussion and could not, to my infinite regret, complete the task I had set for myself. CARAVANS remains an important book to this very day, and I earnestly recommend reading it.

Traude

Fifi le Beau
November 5, 2004 - 09:31 pm
My daughter sent me a book for my birthday and when I opened it there was the current occupant of the White House walking hand in hand with the current acting leader of Saudi Arabia.

Arabian men kiss when greeting other men. They walk hand in hand down the street like lovers do here.

In our country it would be considered a feminine trait, as young girls hold hands but not young boys.

Arabia though is a mans world, and only men interact with other men in the course of business and daily life outside the home. It may be their need for some kind of intimate gesture in a male dominated society.

They do not however allow their women such priviledges.

Kiss your enemy, if you cannot kill him........Arab saying

Fifi

moxiect
November 5, 2004 - 09:36 pm


Robby,

Strange, I am reading about some traditions that I heard of during family get togethers. Are you experiencing the same?

Persian
November 5, 2004 - 10:14 pm
FIFI - may I add a bit to your "Arabian trivia?" The custom of men walking hand in hand is also very common in non-Arab Iran and parts of Turkey, Central Asia (especially Afghanistan and Pakistan), China (especially among the Hui people,who are Muslims, but also the Han majority). A full embrace and the touching of each other's cheeks when meeting is also common behavior, except in China. In these cultures, the men do NOT have the same sense of spatial privacy that Westerners have. Women behave in the same way with other women and often with male members of their immediate family within the privacy of their own homes, NOT in public.

Another Middle Eastern saying: "My brother and I against our cousin; my brother, cousin and I against a Stranger."

TRAUDE - I, too, remember the earlier discussion about CARAVANS. My son has used the paperback copy repeatedly as a core part of his cultural briefings for the soldiers serving in Afghanistan. Since he could not carry SOC with him, he took copious notes about Muslim culture and religious issues to share with the American men and women whom he serves as an Army Chaplain. And, on occasion, he has found that his local knowledge from CARAVANS has helped to establish a positive relationship with the Afghan elders with whom he occasionally interacts.

Fifi le Beau
November 5, 2004 - 11:09 pm
Durants words.......

Kindly and murderous, generous and avaricious, dishonest and faithful, cautious and brave

Durants description struck me as so insightful on the Arabian personality. Every arabist I have read has described them in this way, but not in the concise exacting manner of Durant. He said in a few words what it took others a chapter to say.

How could anyone in the west ever understand someone with these diametrically opposite traits. I asked a noted Arabist after reading his book that included that area of the world, and he said because of their tendancy to lie, you never knew what they would actually do in any given circumstance. Would they be 'dishonest or faithful'? Toss a coin was his answer.

The Arab saying that I put in a previous post answeres Durants 'kindly and murderous'. Kiss your enemy if you can't kill him.

The 'generous and avaricious' is described in Lacey's book about the man who united the tribes to form the current country of Arabia, even putting his name on it, hence...Saudi Arabia. He describes the early life of King Saud and the Arabian trait of robbing those who ventured into their territory. Robbing and raiding was a way of life, and everyone seemed to participate. They might share their food and water with you and invite you to be their guest in other circumstances.

'Cautious and brave' is explained in their first foray into Mesopotamia. They overcame another tribe and eventually took other territory with help from the tribes they captured. Then they stopped and waited three years while enlisting others to do battle with them and for them. They later in their Empire building stage used captured and mercenary foreign troops to fight their battles.

They struck at night while the tribe slept, or when the caravan rested which would be good tactics, but not without the odds in their favor. Cautious with the daring of robbers and bandits.

We all share some of these traits in differing degrees. I am cautious and do not consider myself brave, but then I won't be robbing my neighbor while they sleep either.

Fifi

JoanK
November 6, 2004 - 02:53 am
Fascinating. I especially enjoyed the Bedouin music. I heard it once. I had gone into the dessert with some potter friends to collect colored sand to make glaze. Suddenly, we heard what sounded like flute music. From MAL's link, it must have been a shabbaba, a length of metal pipe. A Bedouin women cane into sight. playing the shabbaba and leading a herd of sheep. She was very shy, and stopped playing when she saw us. The music was very beautiful and haunting, especially coming in that empty desert.

kidsal
November 6, 2004 - 04:01 am
I particularly enjoyed the story of Gertrude Bell the British woman who traveled alone throughout what is now Iraq. Her travels among the Bedoins are described in "Desert Queen." She worked for the British government and lived/died in Baghdad. Founded the first museum. Some of her letters to her father in England are on the Internet.

In studying Islam (Barnes&Noble course) was reminded that not all Arabs are Muslim and not all Muslims are Arabs.

Éloïse De Pelteau
November 6, 2004 - 04:37 am
I cannot add to these interesting posts but I can say that to learn from several participants who have personal experience from having lived inside the countries we are examining here is wonderful. It is better than visiting these lands as tourists because from those I know who have gone on tours there can only skim the surface of what people's lives are without ever being able to really know how they live at home and among themselves.

In the news we often see French and Russian men kissing each other instead of shaking hands when they great each other.

I still remember Michener's "The Source" about Israel. His historic novels are so well researched and fascinating that they stay in your memory.

This is a revelation to me also: "Kindly and murderous, generous and avaricious, dishonest and faithful, cautious and brave"

robert b. iadeluca
November 6, 2004 - 04:56 am
Welcome, Kidsal!! We are glad to have you join us and will be looking forward to your continued participation.

Moxie, I believe you were referring to the similarity between Arab and Italian traditions. But then, as I indicated in a previous posting, we are talking here about a small part of the world and the Roman Empire was not that far away from the Arabian peninsula. They all got to know each other and absorb each others way of life.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
November 6, 2004 - 05:14 am
"The mysterious charms of the Bedouin woman rivaled battle as a theme and stimulus for the man's verse. The pre-Moslem Arab was usually illiterate but he loved poetry only next to horses, women, and wine. He had no scientists or historians but he had a heady passion for eloquence, for fine and correct speech, and intricately patterned verse.

"His language was closely kin to the Hebrew -- complex in inflections -- rich in vocabulary -- precise in differentiations -- expressing now every manner of poetry, later every subtlety of philosophy. The Arabs took pride in the antiquity and fullness of their language -- loved to roll its mellifluous syllables in oratorical flourishes on tongue or pen -- and listened with tense ecstasy to the poets who, in villages and cities, in desert camps or at the fairs, recalled to them, in running meters and endless rhymes, the loves and wars of their heroes, tribes, or kings.

"The poet was to the Arabs their historian, genealogist, satirist, moralist, newspaper, oracle, call to battle. When a poet won a prize at one of the many poetry contests, his whole tribe felt honored, and rejoiced.

"Every year at the Ukaz fair, the greatest of these contests was held. Almost daily for a month the clans competed through their poets. There were no judges but the eagerly or scornfully listening multitudes. The winning poems were written down in brilliantly illuminated characters, were therefore called the Golden Songs, and were preserved like heirlooms in the treasuries of princes and kings.

"The Arabs called them also Muallaqat, or Suspended because legend said that the prize poems, inscribed upon Egyptian silk in letters of gold, were hung on the walls of the Kaaba in Mecca."

In this Western civilization, when was the last time you heard of a poetry contest a month long? How often do you see oral poetry taking precedence over the written word?

Do we still have a Poet Laureate in the United States? If we do, how often is he/she in the public eye?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
November 6, 2004 - 05:21 am
Click HERE for this beautifully written story of the Ukaz Fair.

It is recommended that you read it slowly, letting your inner artist paint a visual picture in your mind. See the sights and hear the sounds of this gathering of so-called primitive people. Feel within yourself the tension of the multitude as the poet moves line by line through his ode.

Let us pay particular attention to the last two paragraphs as we, the "civilized" people of the West, tend to look down upon these "ignorant desert dwellers."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
November 6, 2004 - 06:09 am
Here is an interesting story of the origin of the KAABA on which the prize poems were hung.

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
November 6, 2004 - 06:44 am
Robby, nations not following the same developmental pattern as we, are considered ignorant barbarians. Putting down people we don't understand is easier than making the effort of understanding them.

moxiect
November 6, 2004 - 08:49 am


Robby,

Yes, that is what I was exactly talking about.

I am learning constantly.

Fifi le Beau
November 6, 2004 - 09:02 am
Robby I read your link in #429 on the Kaaba. It came from a web site called crystalinks and after searching through it for a few minutes I found myself in the fourth dimension with crystals, meteorites, sacred rocks, out in the constellation of Orion feeling as though the 'Heavens Gate' group might ride by any minute on the Hale-Bopp comet.

The Arabs we are reading about now were like all the other much earlier civilizations in idol worship. Their worship was built around this black rock that many think was from a meteorite they called the Kaaba. Like the other religions we have studied they incorporated some of their ceremonies of idol worship into their new religion.

All the historians I have read say that the Arabs threw out their lesser idols but could not get rid of the black stone because the people used it as their main object of worship and like the Christians of Rome, simply incorporated it into the story.

The muslims try to explain it away, but since they kept the 'sacred rock' of pre Islamic idol worship and put it front and center to play an important role in their religion, rock worship still must be important to them.

From Durant......The desert Arab had his own primitive religion. He feared and worshiped incalculable deities in stars and moon and the depths of the earth......Now and then he offered human scrifice: and here and there he worshiped sacred stones.

The center of this stone worship was Mecca......The merchants who controlled this trade formed joint-stock companies, dominated the fairs of Ukaz, and managed the lucrative religious ritual that centered round the Kaaba and its sacred Black Stone.


Fifi

ayatula2001
November 6, 2004 - 10:13 am
am very happy to meet you by this time iam amuslim now learning about prophet mohammed so tell me more about him .

ayatula2001
November 6, 2004 - 10:18 am
am very happy to meet you by this time i am amuslim i am want to learn about prophet mohammed what do and how he dies

JoanK
November 6, 2004 - 10:26 am
WELCOME ayatula. We are all learning too, so pull up a chair and learn with us.

robert b. iadeluca
November 6, 2004 - 10:38 am
Ayatula:-You are most welcome here and your comments are welcome. Please tell us a bit about yourself. Have you been a Muslim since birth or did you convert to that religion? Where are you located? Please share with us only what you want to share. It is not our intention to pry into your private life.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
November 6, 2004 - 11:32 am
Read HERE to learn about the importance of poetry in pre-Islamic Civilization.

Robby

JoanK
November 6, 2004 - 12:15 pm
Robby asks"Do we still have a poet laureate? Yes, indeed. Read about him here:

http://www.loc.gov/poetry/laureate.html

The most active poet laureate we have had lately was Robert Hass (1997-1999), a favorite of mine not for his poetry, but for his wonderful translations of Japanese haiku, and for all he has done to promote poetry in Washington DC. He started a regular poetry column in the Washington Post. Even better, he started the series of "poetry in the park" where ordinary people gather to read their favorite poems. There are poetry contests all over the area.

DC is not the only place that has many poetry contests. In the poetry discussion group, we have talked in the past about cowboy poetry. Cowboys have poetry contests regularly all over the West where they read their poetry.

I'm sure there are many other groups that do so. Patrick O'Brian, writing about sailors in the British navy in the early 1800s quotes many sailor poets: who would have poetry readings on board ship. These were men who, in many cases, had very little formal education, but they used their reading and writing skills to write poetry.

The amount of poetry being published on the web must be humongous. Not to mention MAL's online magazines. Several of the participants in this discussion are poets.

Yes, Robby, poetry is alive and well.

robert b. iadeluca
November 6, 2004 - 12:59 pm
Well, I'm pleased that we still have a Poet Laureate but I'll bet that if I go out on the street and ask ten people who he/she is, eleven of them won't know -- much less have attended an annual poetry fair where the winner had his ode hung on the Mall in Washington.

Robby

Hats
November 6, 2004 - 01:44 pm
Robby,

Thank you for sharing the link to Ukaz Fair. It is fun to try and picture the excitement of the day. At our fairs, we compete by bringing quilts, jellies and pies.

What a unique experience to have at a fair, hearing poets read lines of beautiful poetry in a competition. I would not like to give up the quilting competitions, etc. but I would very much enjoy hearing the voice of a poet in the background.

Hats
November 6, 2004 - 01:53 pm
What beautiful words of poetry! The words give me goose bumps.

"Pre-Islamic poets were also concerned with matters of love, as in the lines of Antara, whose words are still chanted: I have remembered you when the lances were sapping my blood and the Indian swords were dripping with it. Whence I wished to kiss the swords because they glittered like your smile."

robert b. iadeluca
November 6, 2004 - 02:00 pm
How cold and factual some of our Western poetry is, HATS. Written by the "left brain" so to speak. Not too many poems causing goose bumps, as you say. And we are reading the translation. Imagine if we were able to understand Arabic with all its mellifluous tones as Durant describes it.

Robby

Hats
November 6, 2004 - 02:13 pm
We do miss so much in the translation. This poetry spoken in their language would most definitely reach the depths of our souls, and we would really hear the "mellifluous tones."

winsum
November 6, 2004 - 04:32 pm
I remember meeting one on line only it was a long time ago however he was/is the a Poet Laureate of seattle washington. . . if I remember. Oh yes he wasn't on line he was one of my tenants when for two years I shared my house with young people.

We do have such things and then there are the song writers, so many of them in the 1960's. Isn't bob dylan a poet? and how about joanie mitchell and cat stevens and the beatles etc. etc.. these young people sang their words but that in no way destroyed their poetry. . . . claire

moxiect
November 6, 2004 - 04:37 pm


What about Cassius Clay(Mohammed Ali)?

Persian
November 6, 2004 - 06:55 pm
In many of the larger mosques throughout the USA, poetry readinsg are held several times each year. They are designed to encourage youth to learn Arabic fluently - all the poetry is in Arabic - and to teach the beauty of the traditional role of Arabic in Islam. The "professional readers" - usually elders who have studied most of their lives - take great pleasure in working with the young people and encouraging them to understand the nuances of the language and to express themselves in traditional ways. Often, there are Guest Readers - people who have traveled from abroad and are "touring" in the USA, sharing their wonderful skills and strengthening the knowledge about Islam for American congregations. The events are quire moving and, of the ones I've attended, beautifully presented and joyfully received. The youngest "reader" I've ever heard personally was a boy of 6, who authored his own presentation about stars. Lovely!

Justin
November 6, 2004 - 08:11 pm
Durant quotes a poem expressing an intent similar to that of the Greek wives and mothers.

Courage! Courage! defenders of women? Smite with the edge of your swords!... The brave who confront the foe we will clasp to our bosoms, but the dastards who flee we will spurn; not for them our embraces.

The intent is quite the opposite of that of Lysistrada but similar to the Greek mothers who tell their warriors to come home carrying a shield or resting upon it.

winsum
November 6, 2004 - 08:24 pm
I looked for arabic poetry and found this

http://www.al-bab.com/arab/literature/poetry.htm#EXAMPLES



but, it's in arabic. some of you speak it? translation please.

at least they discuss traditional format which is based not on rhyming words but syllables. .

claire

JoanK
November 6, 2004 - 08:40 pm
There are some poems in the links that are translated into English. Here is a link to Moroccan poems with English translations:

http://morocco.poetryinternational.org/

Malryn (Mal)
November 6, 2004 - 09:11 pm

This is a portion of a translated poem written by Al Mutanabbi, mentioned on the page ROBBY posted about Pre-Islamic poetry. Al Mutanabbi lived in the fifth century of the Christian era. He was the "most expert of all the poets in sounding the depths of the human soul."


PASSAGE FROM POEM BY AL MUTANABBI

Glory and honour were healed when you were healed, and your pain passed on to your enemies.
Light, that had left the sun, as if it was sick in its body, came back to it.
By race, the Arabs are supreme in the world, but a foreigner will take part with the Arabs of good heart.

Sunknow
November 6, 2004 - 10:14 pm
Sorry I am a little behind with my remarks.

Fifi -- your post #442: "The Arab saying that I put in a previous post answers Durants 'kindly and murderous'. Kiss your enemy if you can't kill him" reminds me of the stories I heard from a young man back in the sixties.

I was working for the local newspaper and had an opportunity to interview a young man that came home from half a world away...... when his draft notice caught up with him, he had been living among the Bedouins. It was a very long article, describing a young man's wanderings across the States, into and out of Canada, and all around Europe, and ending up among the Bedouins.

He had the misfortune to lose all his belongings, and ended up with the clothes on his back, and broke. One of the Bedouin tribes took him in, fed him, cared for him, and let him stay for weeks.

Finally, he contacted his foster family back home, living my my fair city, and they promptly forwarded all his mail on to him. He always pretended to be utterly surprised when he got his Draft Notice with all that mail, but I always suspected he was more accurately SHOCKED that it had finally caught up with him. At any rate he came home, did his duty, and served his tour like everyone else. The last I heard of him, he was discharged and was working on off-shore oil rigs down in the Gulf.

He told me marvelous tales about living with the Bedouins, and described wonderful adventures. He thought they were a fierce people, and sometimes frightening, yet somehow dignified and he was totally captivated by their kindness to him. The article I wrote was long, and our local Editor loved it, and could not cut any of it. Our young man was celebrated as an adventurous local hero, even before he went away to serve his country........not bad for a young man that surely tried to be one of the many draft dodgers of that time.

Now back to that wonderful poetry.

Sun

winsum
November 6, 2004 - 10:17 pm
to the morrocan poems http://morocco.poetryinternational.org/

I really enjoyed reading them in translation.

Malryn (Mal)
November 6, 2004 - 10:28 pm
More Pre-Islamic poetry: The Hanged Poems

Pre-Islamic poetry by Khansa. Most of it is about her brothers, who were killed in tribal battles pre-dating Islam.

winsum
November 6, 2004 - 10:50 pm
no one knows who wrote them? they are so personal in tone and feelings. . . . beautiful. a quote from this literature. now I forget which one but not the quote:

"The essence of great poetry is the dexterity of verbal skill and the range of emotions which are explored,"

Claire

Hats
November 7, 2004 - 04:17 am
Wallace Stevens’ words: “The wonder and mystery of art . . . is the revelation of something ‘wholly other.'

Wallace Stevens' words, 'wholly other' captures the beauty of these poems. Thank you JoanK for the Moroccan poetry link. The poems are very beautiful and thought provoking. These poems touch the emotions which everybody shares. Our place on the globe or our ethnicity does not matter. We are unified by the beauty of these words.

Hats
November 7, 2004 - 04:21 am
Like Claire, I would like to thank you for the poetry links and introducing me to "Hanged Poems."

robert b. iadeluca
November 7, 2004 - 04:32 am
"Unabashedly sensual is an ode by Imru'lqais"-

Fair too was that other, she the veil-hidden one, howdahed, how close, how guarded! Yet did she welcome me.
Passed I twixt her tent-ropes -- what though her near-of-kin lay in the dark to slay me, blood-shedders all of them.
Came I at the mid-night hour when the Pleiades showed as the links of seed-pearls binding the sky's girdle.
Stealing in, I stood there. She had cast off from her every robe but one robe, all but her night-garment.
Tenderly she scolded:-What is this strategem? Speak, on thine oath, thou mad one. Stark is thy lunacy.
Passed we out together, while she drew after us on our twin track, to hide it, wise, her embroderies.
Fled beyond the camp-fires. There in security dark in the sand we lay down far from the prying eyes.
By her plaits I wooed her, drew her face near to me, won to her waist how frail-lined, hers of the ankle-rings.
Fair-faced she -- no redness -- noble of countenance, smooth as of glass her bosom, bare with its necklaces.

Is that too sensual for any "thought-police" in our Western civilization? Could that be hung in Washington's Mall for all to read?

Robby

winsum
November 7, 2004 - 04:44 am
could that be hung . .in public

anywhere. it's very beautiful



graffiti like this.
can you imagine a city full of it this strange christian land,s multitude
would have fits,



but most of us would love it. . . . claire

robert b. iadeluca
November 7, 2004 - 05:37 am
"The pre-Islamic poets sang their compositions to musical accompaniments. Music and poetry were bound into one form. The flute, the lute, the reed pipe or oboe, and the tambourine were the favored instruments.

"Singing girls were often invited to amuse male banqueteers. Taverns were equipped with them. The Ghassanid kings kept a troupe of them to ease the cares of royalty. When the Meccans marched against Mohammed in 624 they took with them a bevy of singing girls to warm their campfires and prod them on to war.

"Even in those early 'Days of Ignorance,' as Moslems would call the pre-Moslem period, the Arab song was a plaintive cantilena tht used few words and carried a note so tenaciously along the upper reaches of the scale that a few verses might provide libretto for an hour."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
November 7, 2004 - 05:42 am
Definitions of CANTILENA.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
November 7, 2004 - 10:53 am
Click HERE to learn about music in the Bedouin culture.

Robby

winsum
November 7, 2004 - 01:58 pm
I was commbining music with a post of a painting when I thought that Jan Sand might have a poem for it. He gave me this one and permission to do whatever and I came up with this thing which seems to move everyone including me.

music and poetry a powerful combination, to say nothing of adding art. Of course this is modern but serves to illustrate the point. http://www.geocities.com/artetal/memories.html

.really like what we're doing now. back to arab music at the link

claire

winsum
November 7, 2004 - 02:58 pm
reminds me of music of the gypsies in spain and the "bellydance" music from all over the mid east also the twentyfour quarter tone music reminds me of the music of India . .. it's very eclectic which mmakes it hard to know just what the pure sounds must be. My college coure in ethnomusicology suggest that the human voice is the most used of all instruents and the intervals found there would be hard to denote, much less to annotate>

a group of us folkniks studied with Jeronimo Villareno who did the guitar music for "around the world in eighty days" and was in his seventies at that time . . .

we learned by the ROTE METHOD since our teacher wasn't fluent in english. I remember Farruca and Soleares. . . interesting rhythms but based on twelve steps and probably not authentic. . . .I did find a way to write them down or would probably not have remembered them.

I found that I was interested in analyzing the patterns of sound rhythmically and structurally. Greek,Arab, Turkish music accompanied our bellydance lessons. . . it still makes me want to MOVE.

claire

MarjV
November 7, 2004 - 05:07 pm
Thanks for your messsage to the poetry board. I enjoyed reading one of the hanged poems. Beautiful and touching and chock full of strong imagery.

~Marj

robert b. iadeluca
November 7, 2004 - 05:18 pm
Glad you visited us from the poetry forum, Marj. Please stay with us, hear what others say, and give us your further reactions.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
November 8, 2004 - 04:12 am
"Within the Kaaba, in pre-Moslem days, were several idols representing gods. One was called Allah and was probably the tribal god of the Quraish. Three others were Allah's daughters -- al-Uzza, al-Lat, and Manah.

"We may judge the antiquity of this Arab pantheon from the mention of Al-il-Lat (al-Lat) by Herodotus as a major Arbian deity. The Quraish paved the way for monotheism by worshiping Allah as chief god. He was presented to the Meccans as the Lord of their soil, to Whom they must pay a tithe of their crops and the first-born of their herds. The Quraish, as alleged descendants of Abraham and Ishmael, appointed the priests and guardians of the shrine, and managed its revenues.

"An aristocratic minority of the tribe, as descendants of Qusay, controlled the civil government of Mecca.

"At the beginning of the sixth century, the Quraish were divided into two factions -- one led by the rich merchant and philanthropist, Hashim -- the other by Hashim's jealous nephew, Ummayya. This bitter rivalry would determine much history.

"When Hashim died he was succeeded as one of Mecca's chiefs by his son or younger brother, Abd al-Muttalib. In 568 the latter's son Abdallah married Amina, also a descendant of Qusay. Abdallah remained with his bride three days, set out on a mercantile expedition, and died at Medina on the way back.

"Two months later (569) Amina was delivered of the most important figure in medieval history."

Comments, anyone?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
November 8, 2004 - 04:19 am
Here is info about the QURAISH TRIBE in Mecca.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
November 8, 2004 - 04:25 am
Here is an excellent OVERVIEW of the Semitic people in Arabia and the various religions in Mecca.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
November 8, 2004 - 04:34 am
Here are a couple of definitions of SEMITIC. There are probably more.

Robby

Shasta Sills
November 8, 2004 - 03:06 pm
Claire, what do you mean when you say it is geometric to combine poetry with music? That there is more than one dimension?

The pre-Islamic poetry is very interesting and I enjoyed reading it, but I prefer more structure in poetry. And more economy. I go into raptures over haiku.

robert b. iadeluca
November 8, 2004 - 03:56 pm
Mal received an email message from Bubble's son, Tany, saying: "My mother asked me to tell you that she is in the hospital -- very sick -- threw up -- very weak -- stomach ache -- and in intensive care. Please tell all her friends this message."

We are all of course very concerned about her and, whatever our religion may or may not be, are saying prayers for her. We had not heard from her for a while and I was wondering about her.

Mal, I assume you have already replied to Tany asking him to pass our thoughts along to her.

I believe that she would want us to continue our discussion, knowing that in the near future she will join us.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
November 8, 2004 - 04:00 pm
MOHAMMED IN MECCA

569-622

robert b. iadeluca
November 8, 2004 - 04:09 pm
"His ancestry was distinguished, his patrimony modest. Abdallah had left him five camels, a flock of goats, a house, and a slave who nursed him in his infancy. His name, meaning 'highly praised,' lent itself well to certain Biblical passages as predicting his advent.

"His mother died when he was six. He was taken over by his grandfather, then seventy-six, and later by his uncle Abu Talib. They gave him affection and care but no one seems to have bothered to teach him how to read or write.

"This feeble accomplishment was held in low repute by the Arabs of the time. Only seventeen men of the Quraish tribe condescended to it.

"Mohammed was never known to write anything himself. He used an amanuensis. His apparent illiteracy did not prevent him from composing the most famous and eloquent book in the Arabic tongue, and from acquring such understanding of the management of men as seldom comes to highly educated persons."

I'm bouncing some thoughts around in my mind and wondering how many people who affected the directions of civilizations came from humble beginnings, even to the point of not being able to read or write.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
November 8, 2004 - 04:15 pm
Some meanings of AMENUENSIS.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
November 8, 2004 - 04:40 pm
I don't know how to click onto that, Moxie.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
November 8, 2004 - 05:45 pm
Info about the MOTHER of Mohammed.

Robby

moxiect
November 8, 2004 - 07:14 pm


Robby, I had found a nice write up of history of Queen Amina and her son Mohammed, but when I tried to get back to it, I couldn't get the right url. So I took it off! I did however save the page on my computer and read it.

I can copy paste it here, if you would like me too. Let me know.

Fifi le Beau
November 8, 2004 - 09:47 pm
I am so sorry to hear of Bubbles illness. My wish is for her to soon be well, and back with us. She is a valuable asset to any discussion.

Fifi

Justin
November 8, 2004 - 10:21 pm
It is not prayer that I offer Bubble but compassionate concern for her welfare and a desire to do something to bring about her quick return to our midst. I see her as a family member who is sick. We are all so close here in this discussion. I offer her all my support and yearn to see her well.

Justin
November 8, 2004 - 10:37 pm
Please Moxie, cut and paste the article. I am surprised to find anyone referring to Amina as "Queen." The lady was a young bride, swathed in the veil and anonymity of Arab women, who spent all of three days with her merchant husband before he died at Medina. Her role in life was captured in the Hang Poetry of the Kaaba.

Our television screens bring us images of women in Iraq today who have similar public and private roles in life.

Malryn (Mal)
November 8, 2004 - 10:42 pm
It was a hard day. First the news about Bubble; then my website host's server went down as I was trying to get the holiday issue of Sonata on the web. Hours later and still not finished with that, my daughter came in and told me Maud Gatewood had died in the morning. She was a very well-known artist and a friend, and her art will be no more. It saddens me.

We're family here in this discussion, and when one of us goes down with illness or problems, we all feel it, I think.

The message from Bubble's son was an instant message to a WREX writer in Australia, who contacted me. I'm trying to get Bubble's husband's email address. If I hear anything you can be sure I'll post it here.

Mal

winsum
November 8, 2004 - 10:53 pm
is an extraordinary lady. At least I find her to be so. whoever is able to give her our best thoughts and wishes please include mine. . . . claire read.

winsum
November 8, 2004 - 10:55 pm
when we speak of something increasing in it's essence in geometric proportion it means that each ingredient is more powerful in relation to the others and the whole than the sum of its parts or in standing alone . . . or something like that. In any case that's what I meant. . . . claire

Justin
November 8, 2004 - 11:34 pm
Claire; One of the signs of a skilled writer is the ability to use the terms of one discipline to enhance our understanding of another discipline. Good use of "geometric."

winsum
November 8, 2004 - 11:46 pm
sometimes in here I feel sorta "semi-skilled". I've never seen so much good writing in one discussion. . . . yourself included. Now if I could only spell (s)

Justin
November 8, 2004 - 11:50 pm
Later, when we come to the Koran we wll be amazed by the mix of Christian and Jewish metaphors in the text. The roots of that mix are forming now in the Pre-Islamic period. Durant may mention it but other historians indicate that the caravan routes connected Mecca, as a trading partner, with the western half of the Crescent. That part of the Crescent was inhabited by Syrians, Phoenicians, and Jews. Rome also played a role in the western Crescent. While Arabia proper had never been conquered, it was not cut off completely. Large numbers of Jews were drawn to the caravan trade. They preserved their own religion and culture. Christianity had filtered in from Abyssinia. So, the stories were there, ready to be interwoven into a new context called Islam.

winsum
November 8, 2004 - 11:55 pm
I found the writing of haiku to be obsessive. Someone taught me the five-seven-five form with nouns at the ends and I did lots and lots and lots of them...here's a page full. it's LOTS of fun. . . . http://www.geocities.com/artetal/haiku.html



Justin there were trade routes from the orient to europe but I don't know when, only that ceramics and silks and spices made the trips regularily. So why not language and culture. And what about India? Were they involved? and when? . . . .claire

Persian
November 9, 2004 - 12:33 am
CLAIRE - expanding on Justin's comments about trade routes a bit, there were well established routes throughout Central and South (India) Asia and as far East as China in the 7th century. (This is jumping ahead a bit, but does answer your question about language and cutlure moving from one world region to another).

Arab Muslim traders (as well as Jewish and Africans) developed long-term trade relations with the Orient, especially throughout China. During a six month tour of sevrice in China in the mid-eighties, I was surprised to note that Arabic script was still printed on the back of Chinese paper currency.

Whereas the Arab Islamic culture perhaps was not as accepted in China as in other lands, certainly the language and commercial skills were highly valued. Arab Muslims, along with their Jewish counterparts, served at several levels in the Tang dynasty. Here's a link that might be of further interest to you. http://www.ucalgary.ca/applied_history/tutor/islam/fractured/china.html

robert b. iadeluca
November 9, 2004 - 03:10 am
Moxe:-It would be most appropriate for you to print something here relating to Mohammed's mother.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
November 9, 2004 - 03:36 am
"Of Mohammed's youth we know almost nothing, though fables about it have filled ten thousand volumes. At the age of twelve, says a tradition, he was taken by Abu Talib on a caravan to Bostra in Syria. Perhaps on that journey he picked up some Jewish and Christian lore. Another tradition pictures him, a few years later, as going to Bostra on mercantile business for the rich widow Khadija.

"Then suddenly we find him, aged twenty-five, marrying her, aged forty and the mother of several children. Until her death twenty-six years later Mohammed lived with Khadija in a monogamous condition highly unusual for a Moslem of means, but perhaps natural in their recipient.

"She bore him some daughters, of whom the most famous was Fatima, and two sons who died in infancy. He consoled his grief by adopting Ali, the orphan son of Abu Talib.

"Khadija was a good woman, a good wife, a good merchant. She remained loyal to Mohammed through all his spiritual vicissitudes and amid all his wives he remembered her as the best.

Ali, who married Fatima, fondly describes his adoptive father at forty-five as

'of middle stature, neither tall nor short. His complexion was rosy white, his eyes black. His hair, thick, brilliant, and beautiful, fell to his shoulders. His profuse beard fell to his breast. There was such sweetness in his visage that no one, once in his presence, could leave him. If I hungered, a single look at the Prophet's face dispelled the hunger. Before him all forgot their griefs and pains.'

"He was a man of dignity and seldom laughed. He kept his keen sense of humor under control, knowing its hazards for public men. Of a delicate constitution, he was nervous, impressionable, given to melancholy pensiveness.

"In moments of excitement or anger his facial veins would swell alarmingly but he knew when to abate his passion and could readily forgive a disarmed and repentant foe."

Having heard the name Mohammed spoken so often in reverential terms, it is interesting to read about Mohammed, the man -- a traveler, a merchant, a rich man, someone having no problem in marrying a woman 15 years older, a loving husband and father. Also someone who appeared to keep his emotions to himself to the point where his facial veins would swell if he was angry -- someone who made it a point not to exhibit any sense of humor. And, if I am understanding this correctly would cycle between melancholy and anger.

He is described as someone with "delicate" physical health but I sit here (admittedly thinking as a clinical psychologist) wondering about his emotional health.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
November 9, 2004 - 04:48 am
Here is information about the city of BOSTRA where Mohammed traveled to by caravan.

Robby

moxiect
November 9, 2004 - 06:37 am


Here is one I found on Mohammed

The History of Mohammed - part 2

THE YEARS OF PEACE -(A.D. 569-622)

As the sixth century began, the Quraish tribe were split into two factions: one led by Hashim, a rich merchant; the other by Hashim’s jealous nephew, Umay­ya. When Hashim died, Abd al-Muttalib, who was either his son or younger brother, succeeded him. His son Abdallah, in the year 568, married Amina, who was also a descendant of the leading family of the Quraish. Three days after the marriage ceremony ended, he left on a business trip. On the return journey, he died at Medina.

Two months later, Amina had a baby boy who would later become the most influential person in history, after the time of Christ.

Although he came from an important family, little Mohammed only inherited a flock of goats, five camels, a house, and a slave woman who cared for him in his infancy. His mother, Amina, died when he was six; and the boy’s grandfather, Abd al-Muttallib, then seventy-six, and later his uncle, Abu Talib, raised him.

The name, Mohammed, means “highly praised” in Arabic. Although he was well-cared for, like most all other boys, young Mohammed was never taught to read or write. No one considered it important; indeed, only seventeen men of the Quraish tribe could read.

Mohammed was never known to write anything himself; he always dictated his ideas to someone who would write them down. But this did not seem to prevent him from composing the most famous book in the Arabic language.

In spite of his meager surroundings, Moham­med belonged to one of the most illustrious families of Arabia. His Quraish parentage included the branch of Hussein, to which belonged the guardianship of the Kaaba. The chief magistrate of the city also belonged to the branch of Hussein.

We know almost nothing about Mohammed’s youth, but there are numerous legends. Later people made up a lot of miraculous stories about his childhood and youth.

Although his mother, Amina, was a Jewess who had been converted to Christianity, we do not know the kind of instruction she had given the boy before she died, when he was six. Yet it must have been a fair amount; for Mohammed’s dictations, as later compiled into the Koran, contain many things which parellel information in the Old Testament (although less in the New). At any rate, it is likely that his Christian mother had been the strongest religious influence in his formative years.

Apparently, he also tended sheep and goats on the hills, in the vicinity of Mecca. At Medina, after he became an accepted prophet, he referred to that earlier experience.

“Pick me the blackest of those berries; they are such as I used to gather when I fed the flocks at Mecca. Verily, no prophet has been raised up who has not performed the work of shepherd.”

Mohammed is thought to have gone on his first caravan journey at the age of thirteen. Apparently, he was actively engaged in trade from that time onward. At the age of twenty-five, Mohammed entered the service of a wealthy widow, named Khadija, for whose commercial interests he made another caravan trip to Syria. While there, he sold her merchandise at Damascus; and, upon his return home, Khadija, forty years old by this time, was so pleased with the capable, intelligent young man—that she married him.

Mohammed is said to have been a faithful husband to Khadija for twenty-five years, until her death; and, as long as she lived, he did not take another wife. This was highly unusual for an Arab of any means.

His marriage to Khadija brought prosperity into Mohammed’s life, and he now had as much time as he wished for leisure.

Khadija bore him several daughters, of whom Fatima is the best known, and two sons who died in infancy. Eventually, Mohammed adopted Ali, the orphan son of Abu Talib, the uncle who had helped raise Mohammed. He also provided for Abu Talib, who had become impoverished. Ali later married Fatima.

Little is known of Mohammed’s history for the next fifteen years. But we do know that, as he approached forty, he would go every year during the holy month of Ramadan to a cave in Mount Hira, three miles from Mecca, where he prayed, fasted, and meditated. He also went to the cave at other times in the year.

Mohammed began to have visions. He said he saw angels; and one was named Gabriel who would speak to him—and, then, throw him down to the ground where he would lie, foaming at the mouth for a time.

The faithful believe that Gabriel, the highest of the angels, actually spoke with Mohammed and gave him the messages, which were later compiled into the Koran. Skeptics say he just had epileptic seizures. Others say it was a form of hysteria accompanied with catalepsy. Still others say demons spoke with Mohammed and threw him to the ground.

(In other studies, we find that Ignatius Loyola, founder of the Jesuits; Joseph Smith, founder of the Mormons; Charles Darwin, inventor of evolution; and Adolph Hitler (who was told to kill the Jews, thus blotting out Sabbath-keepers) also made regular contact with an evil spirit.

Returning from these experiences, he would not only tell others what had happened, but would pay a man to write them down. Everything written down was supposed to have been given to Mohammed by Gabriel, who in turn was said to have memorized the exact words and later dictated them.

The messages were written on palm leaves, pieces of animal hide, and even on bones. =^..^=

moxiect
November 9, 2004 - 06:44 am


Below is a Link pertaining to a Queen Amina

http://www.womeninworldhistory.com/sample-09.html

JoanK
November 9, 2004 - 07:08 am
Marjorie, in the Rubbish site wants to collect all the wishes for Sea Bubble into an HTML page, but doesn't know where to collect them. Any ideas? Here is her message in Rubbish

BUBBLE

JoanK
November 9, 2004 - 07:27 am
Lovely haiku, Winsom. I am addicted to them too, especially those of the old Japanese masters. If I ever understand Budd ism (which I doubt) it will be more from reading haiku then reading texts on it. The best book I've found on Japanese haiku is "The Essential Haiku" edited by Robert Hass.

JoanK
November 9, 2004 - 07:34 am
"If only I could spell (s)". How many times I've said that!! Fortunately, some kind person introduced me to a spell checker that will check my posts before I post them (when I remember -- I forgot in the post above). It's called ispell. I don't remember if the link below is where I got it, but it looks like the same thing. Once you install it, when you right click anywhere in your post, it will spellcheck the post.

ISPELL

Malryn (Mal)
November 9, 2004 - 09:10 am
From what I'm reading elsewhere, when Khadija heard of Mohammed's trance in which he was told to spread the word that there was one god, she began to push him to do this. It's interesting to read, if one can accept the source, that Mohammed had had other trances prior to that one, and that during one he was so besieged by evil spirits that he decided to end his life by jumping off a cliff. Fortunately for Islam, he didn't.

Apparently many or all of Mohammed's revelations came in the form of trances. How many times have we read of a prophet whose revelations came in this form?

In various articles I've read, there are accusations that Mohammed was a lascivious lecher with an insatiable sexual appetite. Some Islamic sites explain this by saying he was faithful fo Khadija for 25 years, meaning that he did not take another wife during the time he and Khadija were married, not that he hadn't been with other women.

After her death he had 11 other wives. It was stated in some Islamic sites I accessed that Mohammed married at least one of them because she was a widow and needed to be taken care of. Others he married because it was politically advantageous for him to marry them. In other words, their position helped his cause.

In one non-Islamic site Mohammed is accused of pedophilia because his last wife was 9 years old. Without knowing the culture and traditions of marriage of Arabic tribes, I think it is impossible to make this accusation. I found an article about child marriage among Arabs in modern times, for example. It apparently is accepted today.

At any rate, in my mind, anyway, and from a western point of view, there is evolving a picture of a complicated man, a thinker, a man who liked women, and one given to trances, which in this culture and time might be diagnosed as a medical condition more than a revelatory one.

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
November 9, 2004 - 10:21 am
Marriage Customs of Arabs

Malryn (Mal)
November 9, 2004 - 10:25 am
"Mohammed's Marriage Life



"Reviewing his marriage life, we notice a sharp contrast to what is mentioned of a person with passion for women’s beauty or adornment. He married Khadijah, a widow much older than him when she proposed to him, at the time that young and beautiful girls of Makkah were easily available to him. This marriage lasted for 25 years, and he did not marry anyone until after her death. In fact, the Prophet continued to revere the memory of his marriage to Khadijah for the rest of his life.

"In addition, this marriage serves as a legislative basis for Muslims: it shows that it’s permissible for a man to marry a woman older than him, for a bachelor to marry a widow, and for an employee to marry his employer. So this issue goes beyond the ephemeral pleasures. Actually, his noble precedence in marrying widows stands high as a better remedy for women in today’s war-stricken societies where large numbers of them have become victims of genocide, rather than leaving them in poverty or turning them to prostitution.

"Moreover, part of what shows the true nature of this man Muhammad (peace be upon him) and the unique motive behind his plural marriages is the fact that he offered his wives a choice to depart gracefully, and he would give them a provision, if their desire was life and its adornment, or to renounce the materialistic world and its embellishments if they desired Allah and His Messenger. The Qur’an says what means:
  • '{O Prophet! say to your wives: If you desire this world's life and its adornment, then come, I will give you a provision and allow you to depart a goodly departing. And if you desire Allah and His Messenger and the latter abode, then surely Allah has prepared for the doers of good among you a mighty reward.}' (Al-Ahzab 33: 28-29)
  • "Any man craving for women’s beauty would never do this.



    "Now coming to the important point in your question, why in the Qur'an would Allah Almighty mention to Prophet Muhammad to not *{take any more wives even if their beauty should please you}*? First of all, the whole verse should be read completely in order to understand its full meaning and the rationale behind it. Allah says what means:
  • '{It is not allowed to you to take women afterwards, nor that you should change them for other wives, though their beauty be pleasing to you.}' (Al-Ahzab 33: 52)
  • "According to the prominent Qur’anic exegetes, this verse was revealed for certain purposes, part of which was to secure the rights of the Prophet’s wives, especially after they had renounced the material world and chosen Allah and His Messenger. So the normal reward for them was to remain his wives and to keep the privilege of being the Mothers of the Believers. So the verse was revealed, according to Ibn `Abbas and others, to make it clear that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) should never think of divorcing them nor exchange them with other women. This brings us to another reason for the revelation of the verse: to eradicate the habit of exchanging wives, which was prevalent among the Arabs of the pre-Islamic era.



    "You seem to lay much focus on the phrase '{even if their beauty should please you}' taking this to mean that beauty factor must have had a role to play in the Prophet’s plural marriages. No sister, the phrase does not imply such connotation. It’s just a way of emphasizing a rule. Just as in another surah Almighty Allah addresses all Muslims with what means:
  • '{Do not marry unbelieving women [idolaters], until they believe: A slave woman who believes is better than an unbelieving woman, even though she allures you.}' (Al-Baqarah 2: 221)
  • "You see, it’s just an emphatically instructive message here, i.e., you should never think of doing such- and-such even if there is an alluring factor in it; you should resist this factor because the danger beneath doing that is much greater. Allah then mentions the danger: '{Unbelievers do [but] beckon you to the Fire. But Allah beckons by His grace to the Garden [of bliss] and forgiveness}

    "Thus, as 'beauty' is not deemed the factor that necessitates the prohibition in the latter, it’s illogical to be deemed the sine qua non for the prohibition in the former."

    Source:

    Mohammed and marriage. Ask Islam

    winsum
    November 9, 2004 - 12:09 pm
    what kind of condition does this suggest to you?

    "Mohammed began to have visions. He said he saw angels; and one was named Gabriel who would speak to him—and, then, throw him down to the ground where he would lie, foaming at the mouth for a time. " . . . . claire

    winsum
    November 9, 2004 - 12:14 pm
    very enlightening post

    Persian
    November 9, 2004 - 02:54 pm
    Today is a very sacred period during the Holy Month of Ramadan. It is the "Night of Power" when Muslims believe the Heavens open up and God hears all and judges ones convictions. Here's a link with a bit more explantion, which might be interesting for those who are not readily familiar with Islam.http://www.kingstonmosque.org.uk/LailatulQadr.htm

    CLAIRE - there is no doubt that throughout history Muhammad has been judged to be insane, epileptic, "possessed of evil spirits," etc. But then so was Paul and Joan of Arc. We learn, historically, that it is much easier for society to explain unusual behavior or events in this way. However, as we'll learn later in this discussion, Muhammad was known for much more than his somewhat unusual behavior.

    Shasta Sills
    November 9, 2004 - 03:09 pm
    Enjoyed your haiku, Claire. I like haiku because it focuses on the moment--one moment in time. We Westerners tend to be always scheming and plotting, planning what we are going to do tomorrow, and it's very difficult for us to really concentrate on the here and now, to appreciate the moment.

    Shasta Sills
    November 9, 2004 - 03:19 pm
    I'm so sorry to hear of Bubble's illness. I always admire her because she is so calm and rational. Maybe this is just one of those stomach viruses that hit you so hard but soon disappear. I hope she will have a rapid recovery.

    Persian
    November 9, 2004 - 04:32 pm
    My thoguhts and prayers are with BUBBLE and her family, too. I've enjoyed her comments in this discussion and others, and we have shared some similar experiences. She has been kind in her encouragement of my family as they deployed abroad and I wish her many blessings for a full recovery. However these messages are being collected, I hope this one can be included.

    MAHLIA

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 9, 2004 - 04:44 pm
    At the moment it is not possible to collect and send messages to BUBBLE because there's nowhere to send them. Her husband's email program is not accepting messages, and that's the only email address we have besides BUBBLE's.

    Perhaps the best thing to do is send our good, healing wishes to her at:

    eeetsel@013.net

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 9, 2004 - 05:53 pm
    "There were many Christians in Arabia, some in Mecca. With at least one of these Mohammed became intimate -- Khadija's cousin Waraqah ibn Nawfal, 'who knew the Scriptures of the Hebrews and the Christians.' Mohammed frequently visited Medina, where his father had died. There he may have met some of the Jews who formed a large part of the population.

    "Many a page of the Koran proves that he learned to admire the morals of the Christians, the monotheism of the Jews, and the strong support given to Christianity and Judaism by the possession of Scriptures believed to be a revelation from God.

    "Compared with these faiths the polytheistic idolatry, loose morality, trial warfare, and political disunity of Arabia may have seemed to him shamefully primitive. He felt the need of a new religion -- perhaps of one that would unify all these factious groups into a virile and healthy nation -- a religion that would give them a morality not earth-bound to the Bedouin law of violence and revenge, but based upon commandments of divine origin and therefore of indisputable force.

    "Others may have had similar thoughts. We hear of several 'prophets' arising in Arabia about the beginning of the seventh century. Many Arabs had been influenced by the Messianic expectations of the Jews. They, too, eagerly awaited a messenger from God. One Arab sect, the Hanifs, already rejected the healthen idolatry of the Kaaba, and preached a universal God, of whom all mankind should be willing slaves.

    "Like every successful preacher, Mohammed gave voice and form to the need and longing of his time."

    Once again it reminds me of that ancient Chinese proverb:-"A leader is someone who watches which way the people are going and then gets out in front."

    And what's that about Mohammed's seeing "the need of a new religion?" You mean religion is man-made? You mean it doesn't come from "above?" You mean someone like Mohammed creates it much as one creates a new organization such as Microsoft or IBM? You mean he researched the size of a possible market and then produced a product to meet those needs? Am I being naive?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 9, 2004 - 06:55 pm
    Beliefs of the earliest PAGAN HANIFS.

    Robby

    Justin
    November 9, 2004 - 08:02 pm
    It is clear that Mohammed admired many of the ways of the Jews and the Christians but at the same time there is in the Koran the sense that the Christians and Jews corrupted the true religion. In the opening prayer (The Exordium)"Lord... you alone we worship, and to you alone we turn for help. Guide us to the straight path, the path of those whom you have favored, not of those who have incurred your wrath, nor of those who have gone astray."

    It looks like discension appears at the very beginning of the text and while Christian and Jewish roots are part and parcel of the body of the material its introduction is less than friendly.

    Robby, can there be any question that when one wants a religion one makes one up either from the available parts or from new parts that may appear to be needed.

    Fifi le Beau
    November 9, 2004 - 10:03 pm
    Durant writes.........

    One Arab sect, the Hanifs, already rejected the healthen idolatry of the Kaaba, and preached a universal God

    I am currently reading a book about Islam along with Durants work. In it the author says there were several sects preaching the one universal God. So the question seems to be why start a new sect.

    Those who worshiped one God, rejected the stone idol worship centered around the Kaaba. Mohammad's family had the concession for the idol worshipers who traveled from all over Arabia to worship there.

    According to early Muslim chronologists, Qussay, one of Mohammad's early ancestors, developed a carefully regulated cult for the worshiping at the Ka'aba. He appointed two of his sons as the supervisors of the cult (around 450 C.E.)

    The Kaaba was a thriving business for the family long before Mohammads birth. In the month of festival (or hajj), each pilgrim brought his or her offering for a particular deity and sacrificed animals to please a particular god. Upon arrival the devotees circumambulated the pantheon and then ran between two great stones called Safa and Marva upon two distant hills, which were believed to be the residences of a male and female deity.

    The devotees practiced abstinences. No profanity, irreverence, or sexual intercourse. No carrying of arms in Mecca during pilgrimage.

    The author states that in fact, the pilgrimage ceremonies of Muslims today are in no way different from what Mohammad's ancestors did hundreds of years before him. Mohammad brought this lucrative business of the Kaaba along with him to his new sect.

    There is only one difference and it does not relate to ceremonies; in pre-Islamic days, everyone was allowed to go to Mecca for pilgrimage-pagans, atheists, polytheists, as well as monotheists. Today, no one but muslims are permitted in Mecca's sanctuary. Mohammad's private god became the deity of all the clans.


    I had never realized how much of a business operation the Kaaba engendered until I read about the founding of modern day Saudi Arabia. The tourism it provided to Mecca, and an abundant supply of slaves. Each year Africans would come and without funds, be unable to return. They provided Arabia with a steady supply of fresh slaves well into the Twentieth Century.

    Fifi

    Justin
    November 9, 2004 - 10:57 pm
    Fifi: Please tell us the source of your information about Mohammed and the business of the Kaaba. It is typical of many religious ventures, both those of yesteryear and today. Political authority gains the freedom to act as it wishes without interference and the priests get rich.

    JoanK
    November 10, 2004 - 01:00 am
    Margorie in the Rubbish site is collecting messages for bubble and will mail them later today. Click on her name in this site to e-mail you yours

    MESSAGE TO BUBBLE

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 10, 2004 - 03:44 am
    The Ramadan Night of Power reminds me a little of Yom Kippur.

    Mal

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 10, 2004 - 04:08 am
    "As Mohammed approached forty he became more and more absorbed in religion. During the holy month of Ramadan he would withdraw, sometimes with his family, to a cave at the foot of Mt. Hira, three miles from Mecca, and spend many days and nights in fasting, meditation, and prayer. One night in the year 610 as he was alone in the cave, the pivotal experience of all Mohammedan history came to him. According to a tradition reported by his chief biographer, Muhammad ibn Ishaq, Mohammed related the event as follows:-

    'Whilst I was asleep, with a coverlet of silk brocade whereon was some writing, the angel Gabriel appeared to me and said, 'Read!' I said: 'I do not read.' He pressed me with the coverlets so tightly that methought 'twas death. Then he let me go, and said: 'Read!' So I read aloud and he departed from me at last.

    'And I awoke from my sleep and it was as though these words were written on my heart. I went forth until, when I was midway on the mountain, I heard a voice from heaven saying:: 'O Mohammed! thou art the messenger of Allah, and I am Gabriel.' I raised my head toward heaven to see and lo - Gabriel in the form of a man, with feet set evenly on the rim of the sky, saying: 'O Mohammed! thou art the messenger of Allah, and I am Gabriel.'

    "Returning to Khadija, he informed her of the visions. We are told that she accepted them as a true revelation from heaven and encouraged him to announce his mission."

    Unless I have missed something, we do not know the words written on the coverlet that he read and which were "written on his heart." Others here may have known, but I was not aware that the holy month of Ramadan existed for Arabs even before the existence of Islam. I had thought it was an Islamic holiday.

    This incident is also telling me that Mohammed already followed the beliefs of either Judaism or Christianity and not the polytheism of ancient tribes.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 10, 2004 - 04:19 am
    There must be something about that Middle Eastern sky. Didn't Constantine look up at the sky and see a cross, while at the same time getting a message about Christianity?

    Mal

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 10, 2004 - 04:59 am
    Here is a photo, accompanied by text, of the CAVE where Mohammed was visited by Gabriel.

    Robby

    ALF
    November 10, 2004 - 07:53 am
    Good point, Mal. Constantine as well as the Wise Men looked to the "heavens."

    Fifi le Beau
    November 10, 2004 - 07:53 am
    Robby, in your link on the cave, the writer says the following about the writing on the coverlet.

    when during a night in the month of Ramadan the first 5 verses of the Surah Al-Alaque were revealed to him.

    Fifi

    Fifi le Beau
    November 10, 2004 - 10:10 am
    Justin, the author quoted in my post is Anwar Hekmat. The book jacket describes him as a former distinguished university professor from abroad, who now lives and works in the United States.

    Little information is available about the author since this is a critical look at Mohammad. After Islamic death threats against writers critical of Islam many writers release little information or write under a pseudonym like Ibn Warraq who has a book out about muslims who have left Islam and the problems they face.

    I spent a weekend reading one of Karen Armstrongs books on Islam. She is a former nun who has rejected Christianity, and has studied and writes on Islam. Her work is dull and glosses over the history of Islam. I selected her book because I wanted several prespectives on Islamic history, and I got nothing from her after spending at least eight hours on that book.

    Her writing is 'faith based' and since I didn't get the 'pie in the sky' gene, I would like to have seen her stand on one foot, rubbing her stomach, and patting her head while singing "Dixie" for eight hours.

    Fifi

    Scrawler
    November 10, 2004 - 11:43 am
    It seems to me that many religions come from humble beginnings. Has anyone heard of a religion that starts at the top in riches and than goes downward to reach the poor? All these religions start out the same - so why do they go in different directions?

    Scrawler
    November 10, 2004 - 11:53 am
    Fife le Beau: Can you recommend a good book on Islam? What is the name of the book you are reading?

    Persian
    November 10, 2004 - 01:29 pm
    FIFE - sorry you didn't enjoy Karen Armstrong's work. I've used her publications in several of my comparative religion classes and admired her intellectual rigor. I particularly liked her book MUHAMMAD: A Biography of the Prophet.

    Armstrong lectured several times at Georgetown University's Center for Islamic Studies (at the invitation of its Diretor, John Esposito, another scholar in the field of Islam) and I encouraged my graduate students to attend. Granted, she brings the "religious" aspect to her work, but then one would expect her to do so, given her background. I seem to recall that in the late 1990's she received the Muslim Public Affairs Council Media Award (no small feat and indicative of her respected reputation among Muslims).

    I also enjoyed Charles Kimball's book WHEN RELIGION BECOMES EVIL - a more practical look at Islam and its historical and contemporary role in the world. As an Islamic studies scholar and the Chair of the Dept. of Religious Studies at Wake Forest University, Kimball has a solid knowledge of Islam, combining it with his family's Jewish and Christian heritage. He, too, is respected by Muslims and was one of few Westerners invited to Tehran to meet with the late Ayatollah Khomeini.

    MAL - in the Qur'an's Sura 53 (An-Najm - the Star), the magnificence of the sky is described to in the first footnote:

    ". . . the close cluster of seven stars known as the Pleiades in the Constellation Taurus, which the sun enters around the 21st of April every year. In mid-April, or a little later, the beautiful cluster would set just after the sun, after having gradually ascended the sky in the winter months. In late May (or a little later) it would rise just before the sun . . . To open-air nations (including the Arabs)whose climate usually presents starry skies, this is an object of great interest, and many folklore tales gathered around it. When so glorious a clister is content to bow down in the horizon and merge its light in the greater light created by Allah, it becomes a symbol of humility in beauty and power before the Most Hig, whose revelation discloses the summit of beauty, power and wisdom."

    BaBi
    November 10, 2004 - 01:55 pm
    A lovely explanation of the Qu'ranic symbology of the Pleides, MAHLIA.

    Scrawler, don't you think that the seeking after meaning and purpose is instinctive in mankind? That is why throughout the world, in the earliest history of every people, some form of worship is established. It is a response to a very basic need.

    Every people's views are shaped to a great extent by their surroundings and circumstances, of course. A desert people's idea of heaven is abundant water and gardens; the Norse idea of hell is a frozen waste; the 'civilized' nations want their heavenly streets paved with gold. But these are externals; trimmings, if you will. The basic need is a universe of order and meaning, with someone in charge. And the instinct to worship is, IMO, ingrained into our being.

    Babi

    3kings
    November 10, 2004 - 02:07 pm
    I think man, since he moved out of the forest and started living beneath open skies has always been fascinated by the heavens. It is likely he recognized in an obscure way the dependence of life on the sun, and the annual cycling of the stars gave him clues as when to sow, and when to expect the wet seasons etc.

    The stars. to this day have been his navigational guide, his time piece, and his calendar. Small wonder that the more 'spiritual ' among us have found inspiration, and heaven itself, in the ever changing, but constant scene.++ Trevor

    winsum
    November 10, 2004 - 04:26 pm
    I noticed this word. It popped out at me because when I said it, it sounded to me like "goyem" a modern term meaning "not jewish".



    "bedouin tribe of qoreysh" as they were called by those who were not.fro the link on pagans. . . . claire

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 10, 2004 - 05:35 pm
    Certainly each of you is entitled to read other books about Islam at the same time you are following Durant's words here but may I ask that you don't allow yourself to jump back and forth in the life of Mohammed and the progression of Islam as you make your postings. It will be much more meaningful here if we march forward together in "The Age of Faith" paragraph by paragraph seeing and hearing the same experiences simultaneously.

    Let us make this experience an intensive one so that when we finish the 189 pages of Islamic Civilization we can say that although we have not become experts, we have gained a significant amount of knowledge and are able to look at the daily news through different eyes.

    The GREEN quotes in the Heading show us the path that Durant has created for us. We have completed the section on "Arabia", are now in the section entitled "Mohammed in Mecca" and will shortly be in the section entitled "Mohammed in Medina."

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 10, 2004 - 05:46 pm
    "Thereafter Mohammed had many similar visions. Often, when they came, he fell to the ground in a convulsion or swoon. Perspiration covered his brow. Even the camel on wich he was sitting felt the excitement, and moved fitfully.

    "Mohammed later attributed his gray hairs to those experiences. When pressed to describe the process of revelation, he answered that the entire text of the Koran existed in heaven and that one fragment at a time was communicated to him, usually by Gabriel. Asked how he could remember these divine discourses, he explained that the achangel made him repeat every word.

    "Others who were near the Prophet at the time neither saw nor heard the angel. Possibly his convulsions were epileptic seizures. They were sometimes accompanied by a sound reported by him as like the ringing of a bell -- a frequent occurrence in epileptic fits. But we hear of no tongue-biting, no loss of prehensile strength, such as usually occurs in epilepsy nor does Mohammed's history show that degeneration of brain power which epilepsy generally brings. On the contrary, he advanced in clarity of thought and in confident leadership and power until his sixtieth year.

    "The evidence is inconclusive. At least it has not sufficed to convince any orthodox Mohammedan."

    Your thoughts, please?

    Robby

    Justin
    November 10, 2004 - 05:52 pm
    Mahlia; What about Robby's comments. Does Ramadan precede Islam and was Mohammad practicing Christianity or Judaiism when he entered the cave?

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 10, 2004 - 05:54 pm
    Here are ten different TYPES OF SEIZURES. If you are interested in "playing neurologist," you might want to click on to each one of them, examine the symptoms, and give your diagnosis as to the type of seizure Mohammed had -- if, if fact, you think he had a seizure. You may, to the contrary, believe that he had a divine-inspired conversion.

    Robby

    Persian
    November 10, 2004 - 06:30 pm
    JUSTIN - here's a link which should give you ample information in response to your questions in #528. Access the site, then scroll down to the section entitled Jahiliyyal (Socio-Religious Condition. I think the paragraph which includes footnote 21 is what you're seeking. http://bismikaallahuma.org/History/pre-islamic.htm

    To which of Robby's comments are you referring?

    ROBBY - as someone who was diagnosed with grand mal epilepsy at age 13 (always managed through medication, no public seizures and no seizures at all in more than a decade), I have alwys been interested in historical commentary about whether Muhammad suffered from epilepsy.

    Overall in the Arab world (even among medical specialists, who might be more secular than those in other professions)), the jury is still out. And whether he might have suffered from what is now termed schizophrenia has also been debated in depth. In many of my travels in the Middle East, I have posed the question of Muhammad's unusual experiences and generally received more information than I asked for, once the listener(s) realized that I was serious and not just a Westerner being judgemental.

    I've always wondered whether congregants in Christian communities - especially those who present themselves as being "touched in the Spirit" and succumb to euphoria and swooning "in the name of Jesus" - are consdiered by their congregations as experiencing "seizures" or just are among "the chosen few" to receive a direct blessing from God.

    Traude S
    November 10, 2004 - 07:19 pm
    ROBBY, we know that Mohammed was a trader. On journeys that must have taken months, he traveled throughout Arabia and its populous centers.

    Mohammed came in contact with other traders from different countries who held different beliefs. He observed first hand their religious practices and became aware of the monotheistic Judeo-Christian concept, which appealed to him. It was an intimate and personal experience at first.

    After extended periods of meditation in the cave(s), and with the guidance of the archangel Gabriel, he gradually began to formulate a simple still imperfect theory (not yet a "doctrine") based on old Judeo-Christian concepts. Only his family and eventually a few friends had knowledge of it.

    Yet from the very beginning Mohammed displayed in abundance what we would now call charisma: he was able to attract and engage people from the entre spectrum of Meccan society and gradually made them into followers.

    But before I go on, I'll wait to learn what Durant has to say about these beginnings.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 10, 2004 - 08:04 pm
    Charisma + a theory + input from others = a doctrine. That's something to chew on, Traude.

    Robby

    winsum
    November 10, 2004 - 08:14 pm
    these look like the right road to take, but there is no input on the halucinations or organized fantacies that accommpany them. these things sound to me like the parinoid delusions . . . i.e. I'm here for a higher purpose to serve god through the appearances of the archangel Gabriel.

    Robby you're the one with the background. what do you think?

    Persian
    November 10, 2004 - 09:53 pm
    Yes, ROBBY, it would be interesting to hear from a Western trained specialist about Muhammad's experiences.

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 10, 2004 - 10:11 pm
    How can ROBBY comment on Mohammed's revelation experiences with so little diagnostic information and without being influenced by his Western training, even as open-minded as he is? If I were he (which I'm not) I'd say, "Your guess is as good as mine."

    Mal

    Justin
    November 10, 2004 - 10:44 pm
    Mahlia: I was referring to Robby's post 514 in which he asks whether Ramadan was observed in the pre Islam period and whether Mohammad was a practicing Jew or Christian at the time he entered the cave.

    The material you linked is outstanding. The source seems impeccable. Jahiliyyah, which includes practices as barbaric as any we have yet encountered, is vile.

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    November 11, 2004 - 01:29 am
    What comes to my mind is, did Mohammed know his doctrine would sweep the entire area to eventually become the faith of a billion souls at the time he was experiencing these revelations?

    Durant will certainly reveal many things that we are not aware of.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 11, 2004 - 03:48 am
    Mal is right. It would not be professional to try to diagnose from such a distance in time and with no personal contact. I would say this, however, someone with schizophrenia ordinarily doesn't have a convulsion or faint. He appears normal except for occasional bizarre comments or behaviors, e.g. talking, eating, etc. normally but saying calmly in the conversation that he has a telepathic contact with the Pentagon.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 11, 2004 - 04:09 am
    "During the next four years Mohammed more and more openly announced himself as the prophet of Allah, divinely commissioned to lead the Arab people to a new morality and a monotheistic faith.

    "Difficulties were many. New ideas are welcomed only if promising early material advantage. Mohammed lived in a mercantile, skeptical community which derived some of its revenues from pilgrims coming to worship the Kaaba's many gods. Against this handicap he made some progress by offering to believers an escape from a threatened hell into a joyous and tangible paradise.

    "He opened his house to all who would hear him -- rich and poor and slaves, Arabs and Christians and Jews. His impassioned eloquence moved a few to belief. His first convert was his aging wife -- the second his cousin Ali -- the third his servant Zaid, whom he had bought as a slave and had immediately freed -- the fourth was his kinsman, Abu Bekr, a man of high standing among the Quraish.

    "Abu Bekr brought to his new faith five other Meccan leaders. He and these became the Prophet's six 'Companions" whose memories of him would later constitute the most revered traditions of Islam. Mohammed went often to the Kaaba, accosted pilgrims, and preached the one god.

    "The Quraish heard him at first with smiling patience, called him a half wit, and proposed to send him, at their own expense, to a physician who might cure him of his madness. But when he attacked the Kaaba worship as idolatry, they rose to the protection of their income and would have done him injury had not his uncle Abu Talib shielded him.

    "Abu Talib would have none of the new faith but his very fidelity to old ways required him to defend any member of his clan.

    "Fear of a blood feud deterred the Quraish from using violence upon Mohammed or his freemen followers. Upon converted slaves, however, they might employ dissuasive measures without offending tribal law. Several of these were jailed. Some were exposed for hours, without head covering or drink, to the glare of the sun.

    "Abu Bekr had by years of commerce saved 40,000 pieces of silver. Now he used 35,000 to buy the freedom of as many converted slaves as he could. Mohammed eased the situation by ruling that recantation under duress was forgivable.

    "The Quraish were more disturbed by Mohammed's welcome to slaves than by his religious creed. Persecution of the poorer converts continued and with such severity that the Prophet permitted or advised their emigration to Abyssinia.

    "The refugees were well received there by the Christian king (615)."

    You can say anything you want. Just don't touch my money or my property. And if someone else wants to give away his money, so be it.

    Robby

    ALF
    November 11, 2004 - 06:18 am
    -asks a good question. Was Mohamed told, by angel Gabriel, that he would have many followers of this new faith? Does Durant mention the answer to that question?

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 11, 2004 - 11:22 am
    In Pre-Islamic times Ramadan was celebrated during the summer. Ramadan means "scorcher."

    Source:

    Ramadan: Encarta

    Makkah (Mecca) was known as Bakkah in Pre-Islamic times.

    Source:

    Questions and answers about Ramadan

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 11, 2004 - 11:34 am
    This page contains a timeline of Mohammed. Scroll down.

    Scrawler
    November 11, 2004 - 11:58 am
    "...New ideas are welcomed only if promising early material advantage. Mohammed lived in a mercantile, skeptical community which derived some of its revenues from pilgrims coming to worship the Kaaba's many gods. Against this handicap he made some progress by offering to believers an escape from a threatened hell into a joyous and tangible paradise."

    I thought this was an ineresting paragraph. I certainly can relate to the first part of the paragraph in the modern world. But how could any religion offer the belivers an escape from a threatened hell into a joyous and tangible paradise? I think this is what bothers me the most about organized religions. How do we know that paradise and hell even exist?

    winsum
    November 11, 2004 - 01:23 pm
    as in the movie A BEAUTIFUL MIND? not schizophrenia. thanks robby.

    winsum
    November 11, 2004 - 01:55 pm
    I read most of it and realized that the developement of religion in the pre-islamic days was much like the use of religion now because as the following discription of atheism applied then, I find myself agreeing with it now, but not as license to the kind of behavior that was the result in those days. No wonder atheism is even now considered evil.

    .They didn't believe that



    life in this world to be the be-all and end-all of human existence. They did not believe in resurrection, reward and punishment and life after death. "There is nothing but our life in this world; we shall die and live but shall never be raised up again", so they believed and declared[25].

    although I collect beautiful rocks and shells the worship of them as idols doesn't apply but the rest does. claire

    Shasta Sills
    November 11, 2004 - 03:15 pm
    It seems that Mohammed did have epileptic seizures, but most epileptics don't return from their seizures with new ideas for the improvement of individual and social life. Did the seizures derail habitual thinking and open his mind to new paths of thought? I suppose a seizure could shock the neurons out of old patterns and into new ones. On the other hand, if God or the Archangel Gabriel began talking to me, I would probably fall down and begin foaming at the mouth myself. I think most of us go through life hoping God will leave us alone and not put us through any such trauma. It would be like a bolt of lightning knocking us over.

    Persian
    November 11, 2004 - 03:23 pm
    You might be surprised, but some of the most enlightening conversastions I've had with Westerners about understanding pre-Islam and its practice after Muhammad conveyed the new religion to the populace has been with Ntive Americans in the USA (primarily Sioux in Montana; Cheyenne in Colorado; and Navajo in Arizona and New Mexico). In many ways, their ancient tribal customs (which are STILL very much incorporated into certain areas of life) are so similar to the Arabs of Muhammad's time that there seems to be an easier acceptance of those ancient customs and people.

    BaBi
    November 11, 2004 - 03:32 pm
    A good point, Mahlia. I would suppose that all tribal and nomadic peoples would have things in common, given the necessities of their way of life. Of course, not all tribal people are nomadic. But when you consider that people are still living tribally throughout Africa, Asia, Autralasia, and the Americas, I think we need to re-think some of our presumptions about our 'civilized' world.

    BAbi

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 11, 2004 - 04:12 pm
    "A year later an event occurred which was almost as significant for Mohammedanism as the converstion of Paul had been for Christianity. Omar ibn al-Khattab, hitherto a most violent opponent, was won over to the new creed.

    "He was a man of great physical strength, social power, and moral courage. His allegiance brought timely confidence to the harassed believers and new adherents to the cause. Instead of hiding their worship in private homes they now preached it boldly in the streets.

    "The defenders of the Kaaba gods formed a league pledged to renounce all intercourse with members of the Hashimite clan who still felt obligated to shield Mohammed. To avert conflict, many Hashimites, including Mohammed and his family, withdrew to a secluded quarter of Mecca, where Abu Talib could provide protection (615).

    "For over two years this separation of the clans continued,until some members of the Quraish, relenting, invited the Hashimites to return to their deserted homes and pledged them peace.

    "The little group of converts rejoiced but the year 619 brought triple misfortune to Mohammed. Khadija, his most loyal supporter, and Abu Talib, his protector, died. Feeling insecure in Mecca and discouraged by the slow increase of his followers there, Mohammed moved to Taif (620), a pleasant town sixty miles east.

    "But Taif rejected him. Its leaders did not care to offend the merchant aristocrcy of Mecca. Its populace, horrified by any religious innovation, hooted him through the streets and pelted him with stones until blood flowed from his legs.

    "Back in Mecca, he married the widow Sauda and betrothed himself, aged fifty, to Aisha, the pretty and petulant seventeen-old daughter of Abu Bekr."

    Progress of this new belief being opposed by the local business moguls and finding himself without the support of his wife or uncle, Mohammed found solace in the arms of a woman.

    Robby

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    November 11, 2004 - 04:28 pm
    "Mohammed found solace in the arms of a woman." the mark of a wise man.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 11, 2004 - 06:37 pm
    Here is TAIF where Mohammed moved to after feeling insecure in Mecca.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 11, 2004 - 06:47 pm
    Here is an interesting tale about AISHA, Mohammed's child-wife.

    Robby

    Fifi le Beau
    November 11, 2004 - 08:39 pm
    Robby your post #549, writing from Durant:

    Back in Mecca, he married the widow Sauda and betrothed himself, aged fifty, to Aisha, the pretty and petulant seventeen-old daughter of Abu Bekr."

    The text in the book says, 'seven year old daughter', not seventeen-old daughter.

    You have said you type everything by hand, and I applaud you for that, it must be a daunting task. I can certainly understand your mistaking a seven year old child being betrothed to a 52 year old man and reading it as seventeen.

    According to Aisha's own testimony she had this to say about her marriage.

    "The Messenger of God married me when I was six years old and the wedding was celebrated when I was nine. I was not frightened , except in the morning, when the messenger of God came and they gave me to him."

    Mohammad consumated the marriage then and there according to Aisha, but he did allow her to keep her dolls, and her little playmates were sometimes allowed to come and play. She however had to perform the duties of a wife when Mohammad came to her room.

    She states in her testimony that she lived in Mohammads harem for nine years until his death. She would still have been a teenager when he died at age 62.

    Fifi

    Fifi le Beau
    November 11, 2004 - 09:24 pm
    The following verses from the Koran that gives Mohammad permission to have as many wives and concubines (slaves) as he wants.

    O Prophet! Lo! We have made lawful unto thee thy wives unto whom thou hast paid their wages (bride-price) and those whom thy right hand possesseth (slaves) of those whom Allah had given thee as spoils of war, and the daughters of thine uncles on the father's side and the daughters of thine aunts on the father's side, and the daughters of thine uncles on the mother's side and the daughters of thine aunts on the mother's side who emigrated with thee, and a believing woman if she give herself unto the Prophet and the Prophet desires to ask her in marriage-the privilege for thee only, not for the believers. We are aware of that which we enjoined upon them concerning their wives and those whom their right hands possess-that thou mayst be free from blame. (Koran 33:50)

    The words, 'we have made it lawful' caught my attention. Who are the 'we' in this sentence?

    Fifi

    Justin
    November 11, 2004 - 11:23 pm
    Yes, my reading tells me Aisha was seven at the time of the marriage and nine at the time when concupiscence overtook the Messenger. I remember, as a young boy, reading about Kentucky and Tennessee hill people marrying young girls to very mature men. The custom then seemed inappropriate and today we would call the man a pedophile.

    Early followers of the Messenger seem not to have approved the relationship but later, when the Koran was written, granted the Messenger special permission to act in this manner.

    Is the practice permitted or condoned in Muslim familes today?

    Justin
    November 11, 2004 - 11:33 pm
    Fifi: I think the "we" is Muhammad's secretary who is said to have transcribed the sayings of the Messenger which were uttered over his entire lifetime. The message from the Angel was apparently quite limited in scope. The bulk of the Koran is available because the secretary pulled together his recollections of the utterances of the Messenger. However, there must be more than that because it seems unlikely the Messenger would grant himself permission to take a child to bed especially when the language of the Koran indicates another person speaking.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 12, 2004 - 03:58 am
    Yes, Fifi, the text in Durant says "seven" not "seventeen." Thank you for catching that. The little imp in me is tempted to say that I did that purposely just to see if those of you with the book were paying attention but no -- the fingers got ahead of the brain. Maybe the puritan in me wouldn't allow me to tell about someone who, in our culture, would be considered a pedophile.

    Could the "we" in the Koran be Allah speaking in the plural form much as the plural form is sometimes used in Christianity? Doesn't the Pope often use the term "we?"

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 12, 2004 - 04:15 am
    "Meanwhile the visions continued. One night, it seemed to him, he was miraculously transported in his sleep to Jerusalem. There a winged horse, Buraq, awaited him at the Wailing Wall of the Jewish Temple ruins, flew him to heaven, and back again. By another miracle the Prophet found himself, the next morning, safe in his Mecca bed.

    "The legend of this flight made Jerusalem a third holy city for Islam.

    "In the year 620 Mohammed preached to merchants who had come from Medina on pilgrimage to the Kaaba. They heard him with some acceptance for the doctrine of monotheism, a divine messenger, and the Last Judgment were familiar to them from the creed of the Medina Jews.

    "Returning to their city, some of them expounded the new gospel to their friends. Several Jews, seeing little difference between Mohammed's teaching and their own, gave it a tentative welcome. In 622 some seventy-three ciizens of Medina came privately to Mohammed and invited him to make Medina his home. He asked would they protect him as faithfully as their own families. They vowed they would but asked what reward they would receive should they be killed in the process.

    "He answered, paradise."

    I keep wondering what causes people to become "believers" no matter what new faith we might be discussing. Should we consider them naive? Is there something about their personality? Is it a question of following the crowd? Are their lives empty and they are looking for something to hold on to?

    What do you folks think was happening in this case as Medina citizens, many if not most of them of Jewish faith, many of them pragmatic men of commerce, began to think of Mohammed's "experiences" as miracles?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 12, 2004 - 04:54 am
    Here are some comments about THE HORSE BURAQ. As usual, consider the source of the link.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 12, 2004 - 05:02 am
    Here is a more detailed story of MOHAMMED'S NIGHT JOURNEY FROM MECCA TO JERUSALEM. After reading it in detail, you might have some comments to make.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 12, 2004 - 05:15 am
    Buraq (the horse) and Miraj (the ascencion) in the words of the Messenger of Allah

    Dome of the Miraj

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 12, 2004 - 05:26 am
    The Noble Qur'an

    Translation of Sahih Muslim

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    November 12, 2004 - 05:32 am
    Robby, The little imp telling you to write seven instead of seventeen, is that not the way the meaning or facts from history books are changed to suit the whims of the writer?

    If a girl of seventeen being sold to an old man in his 50's is culturally acceptable even though I would call it child abuse, but for a girl of 7 it is downright violence. She was a martyr. Yet, such is history and there is nothing new about that, as women were considered less valuable than chattel.

    Still if a Christian prophet had been described in the Bible as having raped a child of 6, I wonder what reaction it would have provoked. I can just visualize it.

    Éloïse

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 12, 2004 - 05:45 am
    The story of the coming of Buraq (the horse) and Miraj (the ascencion) according to the Messenger I posted is a HADITH.

    Below is a statement which shows the differences between SUNNAH and HADITH.
    "In Islam, the Arabic word sunnah has come to denote the way Prophet Muhammad (saas), the Messenger of Allah, lived his life. The Sunnah is the second source of Islamic jurisprudence, the first being the Qur'an. Both sources are indispensable; one cannot practice Islam without consulting both of them. The Arabic word hadith (pl. ahadith) is very similar to Sunnah, but not identical. A hadith is a narration about the life of the Prophet (saas) or what he approved - as opposed to his life itself, which is the Sunnah as already mentioned.

    "In M. M. Azami's Studies in Hadith Methodology and Literature, the following precise definition of a hadith is given,
    "According to Muhaddithiin [scholars of hadith -ed.] it stands for 'what was transmitted on the authority of the Prophet, his deeds, sayings, tacit approval, or description of his sifaat (features) meaning his physical appearance. However, physical appearance of the Prophet is not included in the definition used by the jurists.'

    "Thus hadith literature means the literature which consists of the narrations of the life of the Prophet and the things approved by him. However, the term was used sometimes in much broader sense to cover the narrations about the Companions [of the Prophet -ed.] and Successors [to the Companions -ed.] as well."

    Source:

    Sunnah and Hadith

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 12, 2004 - 05:51 am
    I am gathering the impression from many of these excellent links that Mal is giving us that every individual follower of Islam is expected to study the Koran in detail. While followers of Christianity and the Jewish faith are also encouraged to study their books of faith, somehow it doesn't seem to me that there is as much pressure to do so as there is on Muslims.

    What do the rest of you think?

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 12, 2004 - 05:55 am
    The ways of the Western "Christian" world were and are not the ways of the Arabs we're reading about now. It's my opinion that until we put aside what we've been taught to believe, it's not possible to understand those people or the religion called Islam.

    As I read the articles linked by ROBBY and myself, I see similarities between the beginning of Islam and the start of Christianity.

    Both contained miraculous events, which I imagine appealed to people, especially people who were illiterate and uneducated. At least that's how it seems to me.

    It's almost like theater or TV programs with special effects. We're still surprised when Peter Pan flies out over the audience in a theater and Mary Poppins pops up into the sky with her umbrella over her head on the movie or television screen.

    Does this aspect of theater attract followers to a religion? I'd say in some ways it does. Offhand I'd say people need miracles to help them believe. Remember the tiny bit of oil which kept the flame burning for 8 days?

    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 12, 2004 - 05:59 am
    You know what popped into my head when I was thinking about the study of the Koran, constant repitition of its books and the prayers, ROBBY? In 12 Step programs there is a slogan which says, "Keep the memory green." In order to work those programs, it's necessary to repeat the same things over and over, thus making it not possible to forget and lapse into the thinking and behavior which caused the participants in them to open the door of the meeting in the first place.

    Mal

    Persian
    November 12, 2004 - 09:41 am
    Although I realize that this discussion has moved along from the Prophet Muhammad's marriage to Aisha to the Night of Revelations, the link below gives a very clear explanation of the PURPOSE of Muhammad's marriage to the young Aisha. Perhaps reading from the standpoint of a Muslim scholar will help to balance the initial revulsion of reading about the union.

    http://www.iol.ie/~afifi/BICNews/Sabeel/sabeel6.htm

    The reasons for the Prophet's marriage to Aisha are described in Sections B and C of the article, while section A deals with the definition of pedophilia in reference to those charges against Muhammad. For this discussion, section C is most interesting.

    Indeed, it is difficult for Westerners in contemporry times to think of a child wed to a man of the Prophet's age and as Eloise states, it may be thought of as perpetuating "violence" and "abuse." (An excellent example of this line of thinking is the mention in an earlier post of the Hill families in Kentucky and Tennessee. I would also add the similar, long accepted practice among some Mormon communities.)

    Yet the ancient Middle East times are NOT our times; the Arab world is NOT the West; and the reasons for the marriage of Aisha (who was an exceptionally gifted individual - as the link clearly describes) do not comply with ordinary marriages. Neither Muhammad or Aisha were "ordinary."

    As a comparison to another young woman in a neighboring region, we might recall Jesus's mother, Mary, who although not as young as Aisa, was betrothed to Joseph and learned of her impending pregnancy from the Angel at a relatively young age - certainly by Western standards. Like Aisha, Mary was by no means "ordinary." It seems easier for Westerners to accept the circumstances of Mary's bethrothal and pregnancy as God's plan than to understand that from the Arab Muslim's standpoint - and that of their Prophet Muhammad - it was also part of God's plan to unite Aisha and Muhammad in marriage.

    MAL has provided excellent links about HADITH, which is especially important for Muslims and well studied alongside the Qur'an, especially during the Holy Month of Ramadan, when Muslims are encouraged to read and study the entire Qur'an. Doing so is NOT just to be done from a religious standpoint, but - like the Bible for Christians - the Qur'an offers lessons for Muslims about how to conduct one's life.

    Scrawler
    November 12, 2004 - 11:22 am
    My Greek grandparents were both three years old when they were betrothed to each other. They didn't marry until my grandfather came to America when he was seventeen and he was able to send for my grandmother who was fifteen.

    My husband's father was almost 50 when he was born and his mother was fourteen.

    winsum
    November 12, 2004 - 12:03 pm
    came to the US in the eighteen seventies shortly after they were wed. She was fifteen. They had nine children, eight survived and she was treated like a queen bee by all of them.

    moxiect
    November 12, 2004 - 12:42 pm
    Could it be that Mohammed took the best of Judiaism/Christianity and interwove what he believed into the Qur'an? Just a thought in passing.

    Shasta Sills
    November 12, 2004 - 04:00 pm
    I've always asked why the Muslims needed a new religion of their own, and why neither Judaism nor Christianity suited their needs. Perhaps it was because they wanted more mysticism and phantasy than the two older religions provided. It seems to me there is nothing in Christianity that matches Mohammed's visions and miracles. And there is certainly not much of that in Judaism.

    As for Mohammed's marriage to Aisha, no matter how you try to explain that, the fact remains that she was a child. And no matter how many other people married at young ages, Mohammed was supposed to be the perfect man. You would expect a higher standard of behavior in the man God chose to write the Koran.

    BaBi
    November 12, 2004 - 04:23 pm
    It has been my understanding that Islam views itself as a continuation of the Judaic and Christian faiths. God's message came to the Jews through Abraham and Moses, and many accepted it but many fell away. Then the message was graciously given again through Jesus, the Christ. Again many believed, but many have fallen away. Mohammed received the message the third...and supposedly last....time in the form of the Qu'ran.

    As I understand it, the Muslims considered it a 'new' religion only in the sense that they taught against the then current Arabic belief in multiple 'gods', ie., idols.

    I am no expert on the subject, admittedly, and stand ready to be corrected by those who are.

    ..Babi

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 12, 2004 - 05:28 pm
    Mahlia:-Your link was very very enlightening. Whatever my personal beliefs may be, it certainly helped me to see, step by logical step, the thinking of the Arabs of that time.

    Shasta says:-"As for Mohammed's marriage to Aisha, no matter how you try to explain that, the fact remains that she was a child."

    Who decides what is a child, Shasta, and how and where? Is it decided by law? In some states one can have a driving license at the age of 14 and some not until 18. Time was when one could not vote until the age of 21. In those days were those 18, 19, and 20 children?

    Or is it decided by family values where in one house one can stay out until midnight and across the street must be home by 9 p.m. How about the family where one is not allowed to drink or smoke until a certain age ("you're too young to drink or smoke!")

    Is a boy who has received his bar mitzvah no longer a child? Is a girl who has just married at the age of 17 no longer a child?

    And we're just talking about our Western culture.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 12, 2004 - 05:52 pm
    "About this time Abu Sufyan, grandson of Umayya, became the head of the Meccan Quraish. Having been brought up in an odor of hatred for all descendants of Hashim, he renewed the persecution of Mohammed's followers.

    "Possibly he had heard that the Prophet was meditating flight and feared that Mohammed, once established in Medina, might stir it to war against Mecca and the Kaaba cult. At his urging, the Quraish commissioned some of their number to apprehend Mohammed, perhaps to kill him.

    "Appraised of the plot, Mohammed fled with Abu Bekr to the cave of Thaur, a league distant. The Quraish emissaries sought them for three days, but failed to find them.

    "The children of Abu Bekr brought camels and the two men rode northward through the night and through many days for 200 miles until, on September 24, 622, they arrived at Medina. Two hundred Meccan adherents had preceded them in the guise of departing pilgrims and stood at the city's gates with the Medina converts to welcome the Prophet.

    "Seventeen years later the Caliph Omar designated the first day -- July 16, 622 -- of the Arabian year in which this Hegira (hijra - flight) took place as the official beginning of the Mohammedan era."

    I'm not trying to be facetious but if Mohammed truly believed why did he flee being killed? Wasn't he willing to be a martyr and go to Paradise?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 12, 2004 - 06:02 pm
    Here are FURTHER DETAILS of Mohammed's flight to Medina.

    Robby

    Persian
    November 12, 2004 - 09:08 pm
    ROBBY - your question is not facetious at all, but asked with sincerity. Muslims believe that Muhammad realized that his work (via God's commands) was not completed yet. Thus, he needed to protect himself so that he could continue to serve God.

    SHASTA - Indeed, Muslims do NOT view Islam as "a new religion," but as a "continuation" of what God had given to his people (Jews and Christians)previously, but which they chose to ignore and turn away from. Islam is often referred to by Muslims as "the capstone" effort of God's love for humankind. BABI's explanation is excellent on this point.

    RE your comment about Aisha being a child. Certainly, age-wise she was. However, it is common for girls in the Middle East to reach puberty earlier than those in the West. And once they do and are able to bear children, they are considered marriageable. A young woman of 20 (as I was when I married) is considered a very old maid! And it is quite common for first cousins to be bethrothed either at birth or very early childhood and to marry when the girl reaches puberty, especially among the tribal communities.

    ALF
    November 13, 2004 - 05:31 am
    I don't have the text but did Mohammad also think that he was the holy one chosen to execute God's wishes, or was it his followers who deemed him as such?

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 13, 2004 - 05:47 am
    Mohammed in Medina

    622-30

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 13, 2004 - 06:10 am
    "The city hitherto called Yathrib, later renamed Medina al-Nabi or 'City of the Prophet,' was situated on the western edge of the central Arabian plateau. Compared with Mecca it was a climatic Eden, with hundreds of gardens, palm groves, and farms.

    "As Mohammed rode into the town one group after another called to him:-'Alight here, O Prophet! Abide with us!' -- and with Arab persistence some caught the halter of his camel to detain him. His answer was perfect diplomacy:-'The choice lies with the camel. Let him advance freely.' The advice quieted jealousy and hallowed his new residence as chosen by God.

    "Where his camel stopped, Mohammed built a mosque and two adjoining homes -- one for Sauda, one for Aisha. Later he added new apartments as he took new wives.

    "In leaving Mecca he had snapped many kinship ties. Now he tried to replace bonds of blood with those of religious brotherhood in a theocratic state. To mitigate the jealousy already rampant between the Refugees (Muhajirin) from Mecca and the Helpers (Ansar) or converts in Medina, he coupled each member of the one group with a member of the other in adoptive brotherhood and called both groups to worship in sacred union in the mosque.

    "In the first ceremony held there he mounted the pulpit and cried in a loud voice:-'Allah is most great!' The assembly burst forth in the same proclamation. Then, still standing with his back to the congregation, he bowed in prayer. He descended the pulpit backward and at hts foot he prostrated himself thrice while continuing to pray.

    "In these prostrations were symbolized that submission of the soul to Allah which gave to the new faith its name Islam -- 'to surrender,' 'to make peace' -- and to its adherents the kindred name of Muslimin or Moslems -- 'the surrendering ones,' 'those who have made their peace with God.' Turning then to the assembly, Mohammed bade it observe this ritual to the end of time. To this day it is the form of prayer that Moslems follow, whether at the mosque, or traveling in the desert, or mosqueless in alien lands.

    "A sermon completed the ceremony, often announcing in Mohammed's case, a new revelation, and directing the actions and policies of the week."

    I don't recall, in our reading of the birth of Christianity, Jesus "directing the policies of the week." In other words, as Durant puts it, Mohammed was creating a "theocratic state."

    And perhaps Mahlia can tell us what Durant means by "Arab persistence" and which might help us to understand what is going on these days in Arab lands.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 13, 2004 - 06:59 am
    Here is DETAILED INFO ABOUT MEDINA.

    Robby

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    November 13, 2004 - 07:04 am
    Robby, everybody in the world should know this about the birth of Islam. It is so little known and understood and when television shows thousands of prostrated worshipers surrounding the black stone in prayer people only see the backs of bent Muslims in prayer and they don't know why they do this. Muslims, on the other hand, know much about the birth of Christianity.

    It seems to be unrealistic and futile to try to implement democracy in the Middle East without first trying to understand their religion as it seems to me it is where the crux of the problem is. Power and might will not be sufficient as spirituality is the stronger force among them.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 13, 2004 - 07:22 am
    Although Arabia is far larger than its neighbor nations, it is 90% desert. This RELIEF MAP tells the story and also shows what nations it currently touches.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 13, 2004 - 07:24 am
    BUBBLE has posted in the WREX discussion that she's home after a week in the hospital recovering from a viral flu and severe intestinal infection. She has to spend at least a week in bed recuperating from her illness, so won't be on the computer much for a while.

    Welcome back, BUBBLE. We missed you.

    Mal

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 13, 2004 - 07:25 am
    Although Arabia is far larger than its neighbor nations, it is 90% desert. This RELIEF MAP tells the story and also shows what nations it currently touches.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 13, 2004 - 07:26 am
    Bubble:-All of us here are happy to receive the good news. Eat lots of chicken soup!

    Robby

    Persian
    November 13, 2004 - 08:25 am
    ELOISE - you have presented a VERY important point in understanding Islam and Muslims in the Middle East: democracy (as it is known and generally accepted in the West) does NOT work well everywhere.

    In a culture like the USA, where people take pride in their democratic way of life and the levels of Federal, State and local governments are designed to work "for the people" through the peoples' elected representatives, Muslims who immigrate from other countries can learn how democracy works and be assured that the system is familiar and accepted.

    However, in regions where democracy has NOT been the rule of the land and only recently have attempts been made to introduce some form of democracy, requiring citizens to make some of their own decisions - or at least let their wishes known - it is truly a FOREIGN concept. No one wants to go out on a limb and be the person to have suggested something. If it doesn't work, they will be blamed (and perhaps killed for creating or supporting an idea that is harmful or unpleasant to others. Instead of saying "oh, well, that didn't work, let's try something else," the attitude is that the person with the idea is a troublemaker. Tribal culture, pure and simple.

    Westerners take pride in individual independence, creative thinking, speaking out and presenting new ideas, methods of handling situations. In the Middle East, being an "independent speaker" is uncomfortable - and quite often dangerous - while independent behavior is more often than not looked at askance. An easily understandable example: American school children are taught that it's OK to ask questions, that's how they learn. Middle Eastern children (generally) are taught to "follow the group" - they recite in unison, don't argue a point in class (unless invited to do so by the teacher), and depend on each other much more than American students do. When they take their exams, plagiarism is often rampant and they see nothing wrong in this. Getting the correct answer is paramount; how one does that is less important; and if one doesn't know the answer (but a neighbor does), then it's OK to copy.

    ROBBY - re "Arab persistence" - in this insistence, it means that the individuals were simply acting in an acceptable manner for their cultural backgrounds. In today's world, look at the recent crowd behavior at the burial of Arafat in Ramallah. That's "Arab persistence" at its most chaotic without a thought given to injuries for the folks who got trampled in the melee; or for the sensitivities of Arafat's widow and daughter as they observed the absolutely hysterical behavior of the mourners.

    "Arab persistence" is also represented in the constant firing of weapons into the air without any thought given to where the bullets will land and if they will harm someone else. Much of Arab behavior (and I speak from personal experience in various circumstances in the Middle East) can be attributed to highly charged emotions (what in the West might be easily termed "hysterical")with little regard for the practical consequences. Both men and women display this type of behavior.

    In meetings, when someone take umbrage with another's comments, the whole room can erupt in loud screaming, accusations and often physical attacks agaisnt the speaker. And then quiet down just as abruptly. It makes for a lot of drama and serious headaches for people unaccustomed to such behavior! The same thing happens in a marketplace and in a govt. office where people wait many hours (sometimes days) to see an official or present a complaint, or in a school where a parent feels that his child has been ill treated.

    "Arab persistence" (at its most negative level) was present in the looting of buildings in Baghdad in daylight in front of hundreds of witnesses (including American soldiers) with little thought to any "wrong doing." The behavior often has absolutely no logic to it at all (in this instance, just plain GREED); it is purely an emotional response of the moment.

    Another type of "Arab persistence": Think of the scenes on TV of in the newspapers of the ritualistic wailing, tearing of the hair and clawing of the face when women mourn. It is terrible to watch (or to be in a group surrounded by such behavior), exhausting to listen to (the mourning can go on for hours adn hours)and totally foreign to Westerners. This type of behavior was displayed many thousands of times over by the Palestinians as they awaited the return of Arafat's body. It was also widely evident many years ago at the natural death of President Nasser in Egypt and less so (but still evident) when President Sadaat was assasinated. Sadaat was NOT well liked or respected by Egyptians (although a favorite in the West), yet people felt his death "deserved the proper response": Public hysteria.

    "Arab persistence" is not only negative; there are positive qualities, too. For example, most Arabs I've met are skilled negotiators - not always fair, but skilled. Some public officials - former UN Secretary Boutros Galli comes to mind - are persistent in their diplomatic skills (another example of Arab persistence). Dr. Hanan Ashwari, the Palestinian Legislator, also comes to mind. She is a tiny women, but staunch in her beliefs for the good of the Palestinian people, determined in making those beliefs known and fearless - absolutely fearless! - in standing up for the Palestinian people (and their beliefs!)agaisnt the world, if necessary.

    And, of course, Arab hospitality (ALWAYS conducted with persistence!!!) is known for its lavishness among Royalty and the wealthy, and its intense emotion among the less fortunate. Trying to leave a party or home before the host determines that it is proper for you to go and it is almost impossible to do!

    But this type of behavior is not limited to Arabs only. In Iran, during the 1979-80 cultural revolution, Persians (who are NOT Arabs, although most are Muslims) behaved in much the same level of persistence when the late Ayatollah Khomeini returned from France. The mobs on the street behaved in what can only be described as totally out of control when he and his entourage tried to make their way from the Tehran airport into the city. They behaved in similar fashion during the period when American hostages were held - cheering on those who held them.

    In Turkey (whose people are also NOT Arabs, but include a majority of Muslims), the behavior at the death of the former ruler Attaturk was similar. Throughout Central and South Asia (Afghanistan, Pakistan, India) whenever a promiment person dies, the public displays an enormous emotional upheaval. Think of the public scenes at deaths of Mahatma Ghandi and Indira Ghandi.

    Hope this answers your question about "Arab persistence." Depending on the circumstances, it can generally be explained as wonderfully hospitable or overly forceful, emotionally chaotic - ranging to hysteria - loud, insistant, overbearing, uncontrolled. Did I mention LOUD?

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 13, 2004 - 09:08 am
    Mahlia:-Thank you so very much for that detailed enlightening post. I have printed it out, am re-reading it, and will get back to you with some more comments and questions.

    In the meantime, let me ask this. Do you see any of the Arab nations gradually turning into a democracy? If so, how might this come about and what kind of a democracy do you envision?

    Robby

    JoanK
    November 13, 2004 - 09:17 am
    Come back soon. We miss you

    JoanK
    November 13, 2004 - 09:23 am
    MAHLIA: thank you. This is the kind of thing we Westerners really need to know and understand.

    I think it's been obvious for some time that trying to impose Democracy by force on a country with no such tradition doesn't work. Not only in Arab countries, but elsewhere. It's important to understand why.

    As someone who regrets the pain of living under a cruel dictator, do you think there is anything the US could do that would be helpful, and not destructive, as our intervention in Iraq has clearly been?

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 13, 2004 - 09:42 am
    Though I'm sure Mahlia has seen firsthand in her travels the effects of a cruel dictator on people, she is an American, and to my knowledge has never been forced to live under one.

    TRAUDE is the one to whom that question should be addressed, since she lived in Nazi Germany during World War II, a point she made quite clear in a post in WREX recently when she said she vowed, when she emigrated to the U.S., that she never again would be "muzzled."

    Mal

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 13, 2004 - 09:57 am
    Mahlia:-Here are some of your comments and questions they raise in my mind.

    "No one wants to go out on a limb and be the person to have suggested something. The attitude is that the person with the idea is a trouble maker."

    How then can there be a person who leads a nation to democracy if no one wants to go out on a limb?

    "Middle Eastern Children (generally) are taught to follow the group. They don't argue a point in class. Getting the correct answer is paramount. It's OK to copy."

    How then is the younger generation going to learn what democracy is so that they can later practice it? (I have to add that much to my sadness I am seeing the same lack of questioning in many of our American schools and much cheating to get the "right answer."

    "Much of Arab behavior can be attributed to highly charged emotions and both men and women display this type of behavior."

    Italians, Greeks, Spaniards, French, and North Africans also have this type of behavior perhaps on a lesser scale. As you say, Persians and Turks who are not Arabs also have this behavior. Could we describe this as a Mediterranean behavior? It isn't that apparent among Germans and Scandinavians, for example. (I am of combined Italian and Swedish heritage. Where does that leave me!!)

    "Muslims who immigrate from other countries can learn how democracy works and be assured that the system is familiar and accepted."

    Do you see Muslim immigrants who have obtained American citizenship playing an important role in their contact with their relatives in the Middle East?

    Mahlia, you are a jewel. Thank you for taking the time and making the effort to explain this culture which is so foreign to most of us.

    Robby

    Bubble
    November 13, 2004 - 10:33 am
    I am finally back home and hopefully will soon be totally "operative" again.

    I read some of the posts while in hospital, my son was thoughtful enough to print a few pages. But poetry, etc is too long gone to comment now.

    I would like to add one note to Mahlia's long post on Arab persistence. I found it most obvious in trade, in the power of bargaining from both salemen and customers, in their obduracy in the process. It is a thing most difficult for Westeners to understand, it seems such a waste of time and not a way to conduct business. Arabs seem to find much enjoyment in it, which has more importance than any benefit from the sale. If they manage to have the benefit while crying they sell at a loss, all the greater their pleasure!

    Robby, I always thought that Germans, English, Swiss and Nordic people were cold in behavior as compared to the Mediteranean types, just like their climate. Was I wrong?

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 13, 2004 - 10:40 am
    Bubble:-It is SO GOOD to have you back. We were all worried.

    Regarding the Nordic types, I have found them "colder" or less emotional, if you will. But it is important to keep in mind that we are sterotyping people which is not good, that everyting is in comparison to others, and that furthermore individuals vary. Some folks in this forum have met me personally so you'll have to ask them if I am more Nordic or Mediterranean in behavior. I know that I am 100% Italian in looks.

    Robby

    winsum
    November 13, 2004 - 10:44 am
    regardless of their background immigrants to america are affected by our diversity, by their neighbors even if they do manage to live in enclaves. American behavior as a steriotpe, is considered to be gauche by some europeans.. . it's all in the eye of the beholder. . . claire

    Persian
    November 13, 2004 - 10:48 am
    MAL is absolutely correct about TRAUDE being an individual who could speak eloquently (and has on several occasions in the SN discussions) about her personal experiences in living under a dictatorship. And TRAUDE's wonderful resolve "not to be muzzled" ever again is the best result one could achieve in adapating to the law of democracy. BRAVO TRAUDE!

    JOAN - I'm a native Californian. My forays into the Middle East, China and Central Asia have been as a visiting professor, guest speaker or business consultant for host institutions. Since my husband is an Egyptian citizen (and now holds Permanent Residency status in the USA), I could apply for dual citizenship, but I'm not the least bit interested in doing so. My French/Irish/Persian independent personality is too dominant. In fact, my husband jokes that if I "and a small group of American women" would show up unexpectedly in Cairo, we could "straighten out the entire Middle East situation en masse."

    Yes, I do think there are things that the US could do to help the democracy process along in the Middle East and Central Asia. FIRST - learn as much about the regions as possible, including serious reading, studying and listening to individuals from the respective countries. With the retirements and deaths of the former "Arabists" at the Dept. of State in Washington DC, a whole generation of knowledgeable Americans intimately familiar with the peoples and cultures of the ME is gone. And they are not easily replaced.

    SECOND, understand that democracy probably won't work in the same way and at the same level as it does in the USA. These regions have no natural connection to (or interest in) the development of laws by the likes of Gerge Washington and Benjamin Franklin. The history in the region is "TRUST & PROTECT your family, clan, tribe (in that order); KILL the strangers or those who cast doubt on your dignity." I cannot stress enough that to even the most impoverished rural and illiterate individual, Personal Dignity (coupled with that of clan and tribe) is PARAMOUNT! Shaming one person shames the entire collective and must be avenged!

    THIRD, understand that the Western sense of time - "RIGHT NOW" - holds no importance to people in the ME. They think in terms of millenia, not nanoseconds. In personal conversations, it is NOT unusual to listen to someone talk about a relative and only later realize that the person spoken about died more than 10 centuries ago. Tribal lore has no use for "the present" when so many events which brought great pride took place so long ago. The late King Hussein of Jordan was well known for being able to name his relatives from the time of the Prophet Muhammad and describe in minute detail some of the battles fought among the ancient tribes. These are recalled with great pride as though they happened yesterday!

    Bubble
    November 13, 2004 - 10:54 am
    of course it is sterotyping people and not all can be the same. I was thinking of the first impresssions one gets when visiting a country or when first seeing from a distance tourists from a particular country.

    Claire, of course it is in the eye of the onlooker. Sabras, Israeli-born, are known to be loud and uncouth even if they hide a heart of sweetness. They themselves would say that they are not that bad, at least they are so openly! lol IMO It is hard to accept a negative view from others, even if it seems to be a "national trait".

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 13, 2004 - 10:57 am
    My link to Medina said:-"In Medina, the Prophet Muhammad found at last the faith and unshakable support denied him by his own tribe, the Quraish of Mecca."

    This calls to mind from Mark 6:4 - "A prophet is not without honor except in his own country, among his own relatives, and in his own house."

    How would you react if your father, brother, son, even nearby neighbor whom you had known for years with all their foibles, told you that he had become the "annointed one."

    Robby

    winsum
    November 13, 2004 - 11:05 am
    I came across that phrase for the first time when I sang with a gospel group last tuesday night. "the "annointed one." is to be praised sing hallliluya" was the phrase sung over and over with two other simple ones , used as a vehicle for sound with variation and energy. . . this was a nondenominationl group . . all belief systems and even mine but mostly christian. I had to give up on the group. too energetic for this old bod. . . but lots of fun. . . claire

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 13, 2004 - 11:05 am
    One of my sons has, ROBBY. I said, "Of course, you are," and told his psychiatrist about it the next time he went in for prescriptions to treat his brain-injury-caused psychotic episodes.

    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 13, 2004 - 11:23 am
    I believe I've mentioned here that immediately after the World Trade Center tragedy, I began to look for explanations of why it had happened.

    The first place I went was to an Islamic site which had a translation of the Qur'an. I was totally unfamiliar with this holy book; knew nothing about it and very little about Islam.

    I still work at studying the Qur'an, as I worked at studying the Torah at one time, for example, but the going is slow for me. Part of it is a kind of embedded resistance and intolerance I find in myself, and I hate being intolerant. Admit your weakness and do something about it I say.

    I still don't know much about Islam, but accessing Islamic and Muslim sites and putting them together with what I've read and what we've discussed about tribes in other civilizations in Durant's Story of Civilization (which I take very, very seriously) made me believe that establishing a western type of democracy in Afghanistan, when our troops went in, would be extremely difficult, if not impossible.

    Now we're in another Middle Eastern country where even factions of Islam fight each other for supremacy.

    How can we expect to change a tribal culture that has existed for thousands of years, and probably won't change, and what people in that culture believe by overthrowing a dictator and offering democracy on our western style silver platter? We can't.

    My question is: Should we even try? Are there compromises that can be made, which do not threaten these people who have such a different mindset from the western one? If there are, what are they?

    Just incidentally, by accident I accessed a website not too long ago, which holds the opinions and beliefs of women of the Taliban. It was an extremely interesting eye-opener.

    Mal

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 13, 2004 - 11:54 am
    "The authority of the Prophet was creating a civic rule for Medina. More and more he was compelled to address his time and inspirations to the practical problems of social organization, daily morals, even to intertribal diplomacy and war.

    "As in Judaism, no distinction was made betwen secular and religious affairs. All alike came under religious jurisdiction. He was both Caesar and Christ.

    "But not all Medinites accepted his authority. A majority of the Arabs stood aside as 'the Disaffected,' viewed the new creed and its ritual skeptically, and wondered whether Mohammed was destroying their traditions and liberties, and involving them in war. Most of the Medina Jews clung to their own faith and continued to trade with the Meccan Quraish.

    "Mohammed drew up with these Jews a subtle concordat:-

    'The Jews who attach themselves to our commonwealth shall be protected from all insults and vexations. They shall have an equal right with our own peole to our assistance and good offices. They shall form with the Moslems one composite nation. They shall practice their religion as freely as the Moslems. They shall join the Moslems in defending Yathrib against all enemies. All future disputes between those who accept this charter shall be referred, under God, to the Prophet.'

    "This agreement was soon accepted by all the Jewish tribes of Medina and the surrounding country. -- the Banu-Nadhir, the Banu-Kuraiza, the Banu-Kainuka."

    Just as in earlier years the new Christians formed an organization in order to protect itself, so it appears that Mohammed followed the same principle. "Join us and I promise to protect you."

    Robby

    Bubble
    November 13, 2004 - 12:36 pm
    I found this article in the e's waiting for me and wanted to share it here. it is from the The Wall Street Journal = Europe and Islam.

    REVIEW & OUTLOOK

    The Van Gogh Murder
    November 10, 2004; Page A16

    "Filmmaker Theo van Gogh was thinking of leaving his country, complaining that in today's Holland it was no longer possible to freely express one's opinion about religious matters. Sadly, he was proved right last week when a man with dual Moroccan-Dutch citizenship repeatedly shot and then almost decapitated Mr. van Gogh with a knife. Images of the beheadings of hostages by terrorists in Iraq come to mind -- only this was downtown Amsterdam, not Baghdad.

    What probably triggered the murder was a short film Mr. van Gogh had recently made, depicting a fictional Muslim woman speaking about her forced marriage, rape by family members and beatings by her husband. The script was written by Ayan Hirsi Ali, a Somali woman who escaped a forced marriage herself and is now a member of the Dutch parliament.

    "Don't do it. Don't do it. Have mercy!" were Mr. van Gogh's last words, according to witnesses. But the note the killer pinned to Mr. van Gogh's body said, "There will be no mercy for the wicked," adding that America, Europe and the Netherlands "will go down."

    This note seems to have instilled real fear in Dutch society. Many Europeans, and not only in the Netherlands, liked to think of Islamic terrorism as an exclusively American or Israeli problem. The gravity of the fact that many of the 9/11 terrorists lived and studied in Europe, where they planned and organized that attack, never really sunk in. Somehow, at least on an unconscious level, Europeans thought this unholy symbiosis could continue, where terrorists would use Europe as a safe haven for attacks only outside Europe. The train bombings in Spain were widely seen as a reprisal against Spain's participation in the "American" Iraq war.

    Partly motivated by an understandable desire not to inadvertently fuel xenophobia, Europe's elites have for too long played down the problems posed by radical elements within Europe's large Muslim community. Even as Muslim demonstrators called for the death of Jews right in the streets of Amsterdam, Paris and elsewhere, the public hardly took notice.

    One might argue that this is the price a liberal society has to pay for its freedom: tolerance of the intolerable. But in Europe, tolerance is selective. Most countries have tough laws against hate speech and neo-Nazis are arrested for similar offenses. The police detained about 20 people in The Hague for chanting nationalist and anti-Muslim slurs after Mr. van Gogh's murder.

    Of course, Muslims in Europe actually turning to terrorism are a tiny minority. But as Ms. Hirsi Ali said, Islamic terror can thrive there because "it is embedded in a big family of equal-minded Muslims." Dutch security services estimate that "only" about 5% of the country's Muslim community is "radical." Given that one million Muslims live in the country, that's about 50,000 people.

    Europe's Muslim leaders are guilty of silence. Muslim groups in France organized thousands to protest the law against wearing headscarves in schools. No such demonstrations on a comparable scale have taken place in France, or elsewhere in the world for that matter, to condemn Islamic terror. Muslims who oppose terror and embrace liberal values have to stand up and be counted.

    At the same time, Europe needs to stop rationalizing the irrational hatred that possesses Islamic terrorists. Islamic terror is not the result of some "failed integration policy" or of some real or imagined Muslim grievance supposedly caused by U.S. Middle East policy. It is fueled by a totalitarian ideology that seeks world domination and the subjugation of infidels and the West. The sooner Europe comes to terms with this truth the sooner it will begin to combat the fanaticism that claimed the life of Mr. van Gogh."

    Scrawler
    November 13, 2004 - 01:17 pm
    Thanks for all your wonderful posts. Persian, I can see my own Greek famly in your Arab persistence, except for one major difference. My grandfather encouraged me to stand up and speak up for my beliefs. Every day he'd ask me what I learned in school and I would have to defend what I learned. He would of course take the opposite side and tell me what was wrong with what the school had taught. But I soon learned that he was doing this on purpose so I would learn how to speak for myself.

    This idea of speaking up for oneself was not always welcomed especially with my male cousins and uncles and sometimes with my aunts who beleived a woman's place was in the home.

    I can't help but wonder why America must persist in making the whole world in our own image. Is Democracy right for everyone?

    Persian
    November 13, 2004 - 02:15 pm
    SCRAWLER - I appreciate your comments about yoru Greek family. I have a great respect for Greeks. In fact, in our Persian culture, we have a saying (which is usually said in jest): "I'll stand up to an Arab or a Persian anytime, anywhere! Now with a Greek . . . Ah, now that takes more planning."

    BUBBLE - SHALOM and thanks for your email. Let me add my welcome to that of everyone else here. You were truly missed and we a greatful that you are headed for full recovery.

    ROBBY - RE your questions:

    1. How then can there be a person who leads a nation to democracy if no one wants to go out on a limb?

    Generally by consensus among a political group or tribal delegation of elders who consult regularly with the national leader. No one will take individual and independent responsibility for major responsibilities, not even Kings. Even the late King Hussein of Jordan, who was by far the most democratically-leaning Head of State, consulted regularly with his advisors, inner circle, senior relatives and the tribal leaders before making a final (and public decision).

    2. How then is the younger generation going to learn what democracy is so that they can later practice it? (I have to add that much to my sadness I am seeing the same lack of questioning in many of our American schools and much cheating to get the "right answer."

    It may take much, much longer for young people to learn the fulll meaning of democracy, its purpose and how it can work well in a society which has no history of it. And only by education will that come about. Yet, if the young people are NOT afford the opportunity to learn about "others" - as is common in many of the orthodox Islamic schools, they will NOT learn. And then there will be a generation even further removed. I, too, am saddened by the seemingly lack of inquisitiveness of American students - at all grade levels on through university. In recent lectures, I've inquired of an abnormally quiet audience "Why aren't you asking questions? Making comments? Do you understand what I've been talking about?" Nothing, no response AT ALL. Even when I half-jokingly say "would you like me to leave right now, even before I'm finished. I'm obviously boring you into silence," there is still little response. And I'm an experienced public speaker! Which leaves me to ascertain that young folks don't know how to ask logical questions or carry one aspect of an argument into another aspect, tying the two together and branching out into other areas. It's depressing.

    3. Italians, Greeks, Spaniards, French, and North Africans also have this type of behavior, perhaps on a lesser scale. As you say, Persians and Turks who are not Arabs also have this behavior. Could we describe this as a Mediterranean behavior? It isn't that apparent among Germans and Scandinavians, for example. (I am of combined Italian and Swedish heritage. Where does that leave me!!)

    I'd agree that the cultural behavior of Italians, Greeks, Spaniards and North Africans are similar, but to me the FRENCH are impossibly arrogant - and here I'm speaking of a large segment of my own family heritage!!!!! - that they are not part of the Mediterranean mind-set. However, the Chinese, Central and South Asians(especially Afghans, Pakistanis and Indians)live nowhere near the Med, but are often display the same cultural behavior as those I mentioned in an earlier post. But then, so do the Brits at soccer matches!!!! The Italians can be forgiven for this type of behavior, because they are, afterall, ITALIANS! (LOL)

    4. Do you see Muslim immigrants who have obtained American citizenship playing an important role in their contact with their relatives in the Middle East?

    ROBBY - what a question for an Italian to ask? Is the Pope Catholic? Is the world round?

    Immigrants have strong and long lasting relations with their relatives WHEREVER THEY ARE IN THE WORLD. Particularly immigrants from the Middle East, who generally have extremely large families.

    Often, entire families immigrate (as in previous generations of Europeans) keeping the family structure together physically, but cautiously moving into the America they think they know from films or news broadcasts.

    They are usually tremendously surprised; often overwhelmed as were many of the Russian Jewish immigrants who came to the USA in the mid 1980's. I was teaching at the Jewish Community Center in Maryland then and knew several families that just could not tolerate the "open ended, make-your-own-decisions American democratic culture. Several families returned to Russia; others relocated from Maryland to Russian immigrant enclaves in New York City, where they were surrounded by familiar sounds and customs.

    Living the American dream is NOT for everyone, although until they experience it, most immigrants think it is. Others do surprisingly well - usually Asians (especially Koreans) - if they have large, well established family relations in the USA.

    As far as political clout with relatives abroad is concerned, think of the sitaution in Baghdad when the Americans first arrived under the supposedly helpful counsel of several Iraqi nationals who had lived outside of Iraq for decades. Those "helpful consultants" had lost total touch with the reality of contemporary life in Iraq and they either gave erroneous information or outright lied to their American sponsors.

    Things went downhill fast and subsequently it was determined that information provided by the Iraqi expatriates was not authentic. It cost the CIA's George Tenet his job; gave Colin Powell severe diplomatic "headaches"; and left Rumsfield looking like an idiot for believing that the advice from these folks was gospel about how Americans would be received in Iraq. The same in Afghanistan. I often wonder why someone just didn't say "listen guys, if 150,000 Iraqis, dressed in full battle gear and armed to the teeth landed on the National Mall in Washington DC, how do you think Americans would react?" And when the lightbulbs went on in their brains, revise their battle plans to more clearly fit the response in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    And if the American military commanders could have talked to citizens of both Iraq and Afghanistan, who had continued to live in those countries, rather than in luxury in Paris or London, they would have planned their invasions quite differently.

    If I may be allowed a personal comment: I have never seen such a total lack of cultural misunderstanding by Americans about a foreign culture as was evident from the very beginning in both Iraq and Afghanistan. With this type of misunderstanding, it is foreboding to think about what will happen if, as I expect, American military will be much more active in Korea soon, as well as called into Africa. As you know, my son, David, has served as a Special Forces Chaplain in Iraq last year and presently in Afghanistan. I learned recently that he expects to be sent to Africa next summer. When he talks about the depth and breadth of "cultural misunderstanding" of these countries by Americans, his eyes go flat.

    Shasta Sills
    November 13, 2004 - 02:41 pm
    Mahlia's posts are always interesting. But if Americans don't understand Arabs, do Arabs understand Americans? Do they want to understand Americans? Probably not, and why should they? They probably understand very little of our culture, and don't approve of the little they do understand.

    Scrawler says democracy is not for every country. And I agree. Other countries should decide for themselves what kind of government they want. Just because we choose it doesn't mean everybody else has to choose it.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 13, 2004 - 02:45 pm
    I am sitting here doing LOTS AND LOTS of thinking.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 13, 2004 - 02:53 pm
    "How shall an Occidental mind ever understand the Orient? Not even a lifetime of devoted scholarship would suffice to initiate a Western student into the subtle character and secret lore of the East."

    - - - Will Durant in Our Oriental Heritage

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 13, 2004 - 04:36 pm
    Just a minute now. What happened to the Concordat with the Jews? When did they and all the rest of us who are not Muslims become the enemy and infidels? Mohammed seems like a pretty shrewd businessman. Is what's happening now what he wanted? Was this in his plans?

    Maybe I'm seeing a different reality, but weren't those Muslims who flew those two jets into the World Trade Center towers? Wasn't that the primary incident that triggered off this whole bloody mess? Aren't they the ones who were applauded and cheered for this act by many Muslims all over the world? Isn't that the reason American troops are in Afghanistan and Iraq and Mahlia's chaplain son is over there?

    Shasta asks some good questions: "if Americans don't understand Arabs, do Arabs understand Americans? Do they want to understand Americans? Probably not, and why should they?"

    Are they working as hard to understand me and the way I live as I am to understand theirs? (And why should I?)

    Mal

    moxiect
    November 13, 2004 - 05:33 pm


    I am totally fascinated by the cultures of other countries!

    Mahlia, your insight into the Arab world is very revealing. As Mal asks,"What happened to Mohammed's concordat with the Jews?" I too would like to know.

    Are the Jews and Americans being SCAPEGOATS for a new GROUP of FANATICs who would like to rule the world?

    3kings
    November 13, 2004 - 06:51 pm
    Goodness ! How we are all guilty, in our nationalistic ways, of demonising the other guys.

    Remember how 50 and 75 years ago we cursed the Germans and Japanese? How we said we could not understand the evil machinations of those people?

    Their intolerance of us, who held a far greater proportion of the worlds wealth then they, was what drove them to war. Remember lebensraum (sp) ? Today we find them much the same as ourselves, respectable people, though in truth neither they nor we have changed.

    If one wants to know what fuels the enmity and antagonism of the Muslim world toward us, then look at the poor economy of those nations, compared to ours. Note at the same time, that many of those nations are resource rich in oil, but still 90% of the citizens live in abject poverty. Life at such a low economic level is something most of us have never experienced, or for more than a year or two, if ever.

    They ask themselves why the West comes taking their resources, at the muzzle of a gun, if need be.

    The reason for their hatred is not to be found in religion. That is only a flag pole around which they seek to rally. It is our economic well being, compared to that of the starving, uneducated, disease ridden waifs that are their children, that drives them.

    Therein lies the wellspring of their hatred. Interestingly enough it is a hatred also directed against any group or tribe within their own boarders, and who are presently seelking to be their masters. Hence the turmoil in Iraq. ++ Trevor

    Persian
    November 13, 2004 - 07:11 pm
    SHASTA - your point is well taken: do Arabs understand Americans? Why should they? Do they want to? Yes and No; sometimes in a genuinely interested way; other times for purely selfish purposes. Generally, Arabs, like many others from various coutnries are fascinated with America because of its openness, but also revile it for the same reason. They are enticed by the opportunity for solid educations leading to professional opportunities, at the same time they are not accustomed to working diligently as most (but not all) American educators demand of their students. They often see no reason not to cheat - on exams, in friendships, business relationships. It's easier! Yet if someone cheats them, they scream bloody murder!

    I've been an educator since the 60's and worked primarily with people from the Middle East, Central and South Asia, China, Russia and, more recently, with citizens from the NIS regions of the former Soviet Union. I've NEVER met a foreign student, faculty member, university administrator, business professional, military officer (or cadet) or member of a foreign government delegation (junior AND senior) who was not fascinated with various aspects of America! And during their periods of fascination, they tend to overlook many of the cultural differences. Even the most senior UN or World Bank officials with whom I've worked were, initially, "bright eyed" about the USA. Then reality set in. And, of course, just like with humans anywhere, individual personality traits play a large role in how Arabs learn about, adapt to and accept (or not) America and its people.

    Individuals like former UN Secretary General Boutros Galli (who was educated in Europe) and Jordan's late King Hussein (who was educated in England and married to an American) are more pragmatic about the USA, its people, culture and governement.

    Prince Bandar, the Saudi Ambassador to the USA and the Dean of the Diplomatic Corps, who maintains homes in Washington and Colorado (an avid skier) has lived in the USA for decades and is comfortable with American culture (and its nuances), but retains a staunchly Arab (specifically Saudi, which is quite different than, say, Iraqi or Egyptian or Lebanese or Syrian) conservative position on many topics.

    As for the question about "do Arabs want to understand Americans" I'd suggest that in my personal experience, Yes, they do. But many issues in American culture get in the way:

    1) the lax sexual morals, fully on display in the print and non print media; advertising campaigns for womens apparel, perfumes, even teenage clothing. And movies, movies, movies, as well as hard-core pornography that even kids have access to.

    2) extremely sexually provocative women's clothing, worn in public and often ill-fitting, which contributes to the "sluttishness" of the individual. Arab women can be highly provocative, but within the privacy of their own homes with their husbands. NOT ON THE STREETS!

    3) the extensiveness of alcohol and drug consumption - often in public - among minors with little if any adult supervision. This is the type of behavior which leads to gang rapes. And THAT behaviour is unheard of in the Arab world. If it were to take place, entire male generations could be wiped out in retaliation. It is almost impossible to even consider the bloodshed that would result!

    4) the hypocrisy of "committed Christians," who often are judgemental about non-Christians, refuse to accept that Muslims generally know quite a bit about Judaism, and don't understand why American Christians don't seem to understand that if it were not for a Jew (Jesus), they would NOT have their religion. Arab Muslims often don't understand why American Christians (particularly) don't know more about the historical aspects of Judaism and Christianity, whereas Arab Christians (whether Egyptian Coptics or Lebanese Orthodox) are well versed in this area. And, particularly, why Americans generally do NOT want to take the time to listen to the reason why Muslims do NOT believe that Jesus was the son of God and crucifed.

    MAL - if I may be allowed a personal comment: I think the Prophet Muhammad and his Companions would be absolutely horrified and greatly saddened by the way that ISLAM has been "kidnapped and held hostage" by vile individuals calling themselves Muslims to achieve their own political purposes. The Prophet's message from God was to provide a way for ALL humankind to learn to work and live together; celebrate the blessings from God; and prosper and take care of their families.

    The terrorism which has spread throughout the world and which did NOT begin with 9/11, but whose seeds were planted and nurtured much earlier, is NOT "the way of the Prophet." Granted, he stood up to his enemies and was not shy when it came to warfare, but he was also humanitarian in post-conflict periods.

    The devastation of innocent civilians in Israel and throughout the Middle East; in Europe, Asia and the USA would be, in my opinion, totally abhorrent to Muhammad. As would the slaughter in Darfur, Africa of innocent civilians (primarily women and children now, since most of their men are dead) by the janjiweed (the Northern Muslims) and the government-sponsored police and military officials. Of all theatres of conflict on the world scene right now involving Muslims, this is without doubt the MOST heinous in terms of misconstruing the true tenets of ISLAM.

    In discussing this specific topic - "how do you think Prophet Muhammad would feel about the current situation?" - several of my Middle East Muslim friends and university colleagues (two of which are prominent Islamic scholars of Arab lineage) replied "his heart would break; we would shame him; we have failed him AND GOD with our human greed." One of my Arab Christian friends said recently "we (humans) just don't learn. Each time God has presented us with a great blessing for mankind (a reference to Judaism and Christianity, followed "one last time" by Islam) we have turned away from Him." We humans just don't get it!

    And if you will excuse a bit of fantasy on my part, I'd love to be a fly on the wall during a discussion between you and Prophet Muhammad!

    MOXIE - I'm not sure if "scapegoat" is the right word, but there is definitely a fast-spreading school of thought among those claiming to be Muslims who have committed themselves (and many of their friends, colleagues, neighbors and total strangers - including children and young women) to annihilating "the Crusaders" (Christians).

    An article in today's Charlotte Observer (my local newspaper) by New York Times' Tom Friedman addresses what we can expect in the future.

    http://www.charlotte.com/mld/observer/news/opinion/10171123.htm

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 13, 2004 - 07:28 pm
    TREVOR, offhand I'd say it's the Americans and our western culture that are being demonized at this point in history. For quite a while I read a lot in the folder for your country and Australia, and elsewhere, that has been extremely critical of the U.S. If the shoe were on the other foot, what would you do? You're right. Nothing has changed. There are plenty of ways I can think of to achieve what spilled blood cannot and could not and never will, but that just doesn't happen in the real world.

    I posted earlier about my efforts and the hours I've spent trying to educate myself enough to understand the beliefs, religions, thinking and culture of countries in the Middle East. Perhaps you missed that? In fact, I have spent a good deal of time reading and learning about your country, New Zealand.

    I am a poor woman with no material assets and understand very well how tiresome, frustrating and tedious it is to be that way. Do I go out and bomb the rich because they are that way? No. Would I ever? No. Would I fight in legitimate ways to achieve some better equality? Yes. That's something to think about.

    Since it was on TV tonight, I watched part of the Passion of the Christ to see what all the fuss is about. The gods decided I wasn't to see all of it and denied me the privilege an hour into the movie. What I saw told me a lot, and it was especially interesting to be able to listen to the Aramaic language. Perhaps tomorrow I'll be able to watch the other half.

    Mal

    Fifi le Beau
    November 13, 2004 - 10:10 pm
    Someone asked what happened to the agreement Mohammad had with the Jews of Medina.

    It did not take Mohammad long to break the agreement. The Jews held property that he wanted. He laid seige to a Jewish tribe known as Banu Nadir. He surrounded their quarters and let no water or food reach them. He set their crops on fire and ordered their fruit trees cut down, which was against all the prevailing customs of the Arabs at that time. In a country with only a few inches of rain fall in a year, it was an unforgivable crime.

    Mohammad immediately invented the following passage: "Whatsoever palm trees ye cut down or left standing on their roots, it was by Allah's leave, in order that He might confound the evil-doers (Jews)." Koran 58:5

    When you need an excuse, blame it on Allah.

    The Jews sent someone to negotiate peace, but Muhammad would not accept unless they left their property behind and moved out. They were forcibly banished from Medina. Mohammad took over their homes, farms, orchards, gardens, goats, sheep, camels, mules, and all gold and silver including their home furnishings.

    This is just the beginning of Muhammads plans for the Jews.

    He had also decided to no longer divide the rich booty among his followers as they had been doing in their robberies of caravans. They were now in the land appropriation business. Mohammad solved the problem with this verse: "That which Allah gave as spoil unto his messenger from the people of the townships, it is for Allah and his messenger and for the next of kin." Koran 59:7

    The Final Solution will follow.

    Fifi

    Fifi le Beau
    November 13, 2004 - 11:11 pm
    In his fifth year in Medina, Mohammad decided to destroy the remaining Jewish population of the town and take over their property. He surrounded their property and began a siege that continued for some time. The elders of the tribe decided to surrender in order to save their families.

    Mohammad decided that an arbitrator, a man whom he knew was not favorable to the Jews, would be the one to decide their fate. It also was a way to blame the arbitrator and not himself, even though he had chosen him. The verdict was as follows:

    All adult males must be slain. Their women and children sold as slaves. All their property confiscated.

    When Mohammad heard the verdict, he cried out in a jubilant voice: "You have judged according to the very sentence of Allah above the seven skies."

    Mohammad ordered his men to dig trenches to be used as common graves. The Jews, with their hands tied behind their backs, were led to the edge of the trench in groups of ten. They were forced to kneel down and were beheaded while their kin watched in horror and wailed in agony.

    This was done in the presence of Muhammad. The killings continued all day and into evening under torchlight. Most Islamic sources agree on seven hundred and fifty Jews killed that day. These were all men and boys, but they also decapitated one young woman who had thrown a stone. The trenches were filled, and the women and children were brought forth to the slave market.

    As they passed one of the young girls caught Mohammad's eye and he signaled his followers to bring her to him. She was called Raihana. She was around nineteen and since she refused to embrace Islam, she was sent to Mohammad's harem as a concubine.

    The massacre of the Jewish Banu Qurayza tribe cast a long shadow over Islam. The persecution of first the Jews, and later Christianity and Zoroastrianism, all of which were monotheistic religions, led some to suspect the underlying motive to be power, not religion.

    This history is the beginning of the end for Jews in Arabia, which was also their home. They were an Arab tribe just like the others and had been in Medina for centuries before Mohammad ever set foot there. First he hijacked their religion and then he began the extermination process so that today, there are no Jews in Arabia.

    This story reminds me of Hitler and Germany during WW11. Perhaps they had read the history of the Jews in Arabia, and the outcome. And as for Persian's claim that Mohammad would have been distressed at what muslims were doing in the name of Islam on September 11, I say that from his history, he would have been rousing them on from a safe distance, and had someone writing furiously a new verse for the Koran to give Allah the credit.

    Fifi

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 13, 2004 - 11:20 pm
    "At Medina, Muhammad overthrew the ruling Jewish elite, confiscated Jewish land, built a theocratic state, and led raids on trading caravans from Mecca. Attempts by Meccan armies to defeat the Muslim forces failed, and several leading Meccans immigrated to Medina and became Muslims.

    "Three years later, Arab hostility against the Jews showed itself, when an Islamic army exterminated the Jewish community of Quraiza. As a result of the Prophet Muhammad's resentment, the Qur'an itself contains many of hostile denunciations of Jews and bitter attacks upon the Jewish tradition, which undoubtedly have colored the beliefs of religious Muslims down to the present. Omar, the caliph who succeeded Muhammad, delineated in his Charter of Omar the twelve laws under which a dhimmi, or non-Muslim, was allowed to exist as a "nonbeliever" among "believers." The Charter codified the conditions of life for Jews under Islam -- a life which was forfeited if the dhimmi broke this law. Among the restrictions of the Charter: Jews were forbidden to touch the Qur'an; forced to wear a distinctive (sometimes dark blue or black) habit with sash; compelled to wear a yellow piece of cloth as a badge (blue for Christians); not allowed to perform their religious practices in public; not allowed to own a horse, because horses were deemed noble; not permitted to drink wine in public; and required to bury their dead without letting their grief be heard by the Muslims."

    Source:

    The Prophet Mohammed

    Persian
    November 13, 2004 - 11:34 pm
    Perhaps it would be helpful to know a little bit about the history of the Banu Nadhir.

    FROM THE QUR'AN, SURA 59, Al-Hashr (The Gathering or Banishment), footnotes as indicated in ( ):

    The Jews had origianlly come from outside Arabia, and seized on land near Madinah. They refused to adapt themselves to the people of Arabia, and were in fact a thorn in the side of the genuine Arabs of Madinah. The dispossession of their propeorty is therefore a restoration of the land to its original people. (5379)

    "It is He who got out the Unbelievers among The People of the Book (the Jewish tribe Banu Nadhr) from their homes at the first fathering of the forces. Little did you (Muslims) think they would get out." (Sura 59:2)

    Continuing the reference to the Banu Nadhr, ". . .whose intrigues and treachery nearly undid the Muslim cause during the perilous days of the battle of Uhud. Four months later, steps were taken again them (the Banu Nadhr). They were asked to leave the strategic position which they occupied, about 3 miles south of Madinah, endangering the very existence of the Ummat in Madinah. At first, the Banu Nadhr demurred, relying on their fortresses andon their secret alliance with the Pagans of Makkah and the Hypocrites of Madinah. But when the Muslim army was gathered to punish them and actually besiege them for some days, their allies stirred not a finger in their aid, and they were wise enough to leave. Most of them joined their brethren in Syria, which they were permitted to do, after being disarmed. Some of them joined their brethren in Khaibar. The Banu Nadhr richly deserved punishment ("they had played a double game"), but their lives were spared and THEY WERE ALLOWED TO CARRY AWAY THEIOR GOODS AND CHATTELS. (5369)

    It is interesting to note how both sides - Muslims and Jews - negotiated for the best positions:

    "Originally, they (Banu Nadhr) were sworn allies of the Madinah Muslims under the holy Prophet, but they secretly intrigued with the Pagan Quaraish of Makkah and the Madinah Hypocrites. They even tried treacherously to take the life of the Prophet while he was on a visit to them, breaking both the laws of hospitality and their own sworn alliance. They thought their allies would help them, but they did not. The eleven day siege showed them their own helplessness. Their supplies were cut off; the exigencies of the siege necessitated the destruction of their outlying palm trees; and the unexpected turn in their fortunes disheartened them. Their hearts were struck with terror and they capitulated. But they laid waste to their homes (to prevent the Muslims from using them) before they left. (5371)

    The Banu Nadhr's lives were spared and they were allowed TEN DAYS in which to remove themselves, their families, and such goods as they could carry. In order to leave no habitation for the Muslims, they demolished their own houses and laid waste their property, to complete the destruction which the operations of war had already caused at the hands of the besieging force of Muslims. (5372)

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 13, 2004 - 11:52 pm
    I think it's hopeless.

    Mal

    Bubble
    November 14, 2004 - 02:01 am
    "The Banu Nadhr's lives were spared and they were allowed TEN DAYS in which to remove themselves, their families, and such goods as they could carry."

    This reminds me of my mom's family in Cairo at the time of the Suez crisis. My uncles, cousins, kin were born there but they were Jews. They were given 3 days to pack and leave, allowed only one suitcase per person and little in term of cash or jewelry (my aunt had to relinquish her rings and golden chain at the airport). She was lucky to have a French sister in Paris.

    My eldest cousin left with her three under six years of age kids and only three suitcases for them all. Life without means was hard in France but at least they were alive. Her eldest son, who was 5 at the time, became an autist apparently from the trauma at the airport. He stopped talking and his mental development stopped on that day. Today he is a grown man with the mind and temper fits of a 5 years old, unable to ever live alone or care for himself.

    Yes Mal, it is hopeless. People only see their own side, unfortunately. I feel particularly blessed in that my parents had decided to leave when they got married in '35. We were spared that ordeal at least... Praise be the Lord?

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 14, 2004 - 04:36 am
    Some powerful postings and quotes here. Let us pause, take a deep breath, and continue with what Durant, a historian, says:-

    "The immigration of two hundred Meccan families created a food shortage in Medina. Mohammed solved the problem as starving people do -- by taking food where it could be had. In commissioning his lieutenants to raid the caravans that passed Medina, he was adopting the morals of most Arab tribes in his time.

    "When the raids succeeded, four fifths of the spoils went to the raiders, one fifth to the Prophet for religious and charitable uses. The share of a slain raider went to hs widow and he himself at once entered paradise.

    "So encouraged, raids and raiders multipled while the merchants of Mecca, whose economic life depended on the security of the caravans, plotted revenge. One raid scandalized Medina as well as Mecca for it took place -- and killed a man -- on the last day of Rajab, one of the sacred months when Arab morality laid a moratorium on violence.

    "In 623 Mohammed himself organized a band of 300 armed men to waylay a rich caravan coming from Syria to Mecca. Abu Sufyan, who commanded the caravan, got wind of the plan, changed his route, and sent to Mecca for help. The Quraish came 900 strong. The miniature armies met at the Wadi Bedr (a river bed or valley usually dry in summer), twenty miles south of Medina.

    "If Mohammed had been defeated his career might have ended there and then. He personally led his men to victory, ascribed it to Allah as a miracle confirming his leadership, and returned to Medina with rich booty and many prisoners (January, 624). Some of these, who had been especially active in the persecution at Mecca, were put to death. The rest were freed for lucrative reasons. But Abu Sufyan survived and promised revenge.

    "He told mourning relatives in Mecca:-'Weep not for your slain and let no bard bewail their fate. Haply the turn may come and ye may obtain vengeance. As for me, I will touch no oil, neither approach my wife, until I shall have gone forth again to fight Mohammed.'"

    Durant tells us that starving people steal food where it can be had. Is that not true? And can we chastise them for that?

    Durant also tells us that Mohammed was "adopting the morals of most Arab tribes in his time." And he also speaks of "sacred months when Arab morality laid a moratorium on violence." To put a moratorium on violence is to imply that violence was the custom.

    As we look at these actions, are we attributing to Mohammed and to Islam what was really the historic customs of Arab tribes prior to the establishment of that religion?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 14, 2004 - 05:06 am
    This MAP shows us the trade route along the coast of Arabia through Mecca.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 14, 2004 - 06:03 am
    Mohammed was trying to change other people to his belief, in other words, proselytizing. Here is an ARTICLE on the subject of proselytizing by someone in the Wiccan religion.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 14, 2004 - 06:12 am
    An article in this morning's NY Times tells about PROSELYTIZING IN AFRICA of Islam and other religions.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 14, 2004 - 06:28 am
    Oh, my goodness, I have so much needed to laugh! I was trying to think last night of the word used in psychology for people who want to conquer the world because it seems to me that Mohammed had those inclinations. All I could think of was "megalomania." I did a search to make sure I knew the real meaning of the word. What I came up with was this, and it certainly did make me laugh.

    "Instead Of Megalomania, Try a Free Screensaver"

    Persian
    November 14, 2004 - 07:01 am
    Robby - sounds like Phase Two of the Sword of Islam!

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 14, 2004 - 07:17 am
    I have been trying to make some comparisons in my mind. Did the Jewish people proselytize? Did they kill in the name of their religion? Did the Christians proselytize? Did they kill in the name of their religion? Did Mohammed and his followers proselytize? Did they kill in the name of their religion?

    How about the religions we examined in Durant's volume, "Our Oriental Heritage" -- Buddhism, Shinto, Taoism? Did they proselytize or kill in the name of their religion? How about the religions of Ancient Greece?

    How about the spiritual beliefs of ancient primitive tribes? Did they live and let live?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 14, 2004 - 07:35 am
    Is this the STORY of two tribes fighting each other over a trade route?

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 14, 2004 - 07:43 am
    "After his enlightenment, he (the Buddha) went to the Deer Park near the holy city of Benares and shared his new understanding with five holy men. They understood immediately and became his disciples. This marked the beginning of the Buddhist community.

    "For the next forty-five years, the Buddha and his disciples went from place to place in India spreading the Dharma, his teachings. Their compassion knew no bounds, they helped everyone along the way, beggars, kings and slave girls. At night, they would sleep where they were; when hungry they would ask for a little food.

    "Whenever the Buddha went, he won the hearts of the people because he dealt with their true feelings. He advised them not to accept his words on blind faith, but to decide for themselves whether his teachings are right or wrong, then follow them. He encouraged everyone to have compassion for each other and develop their own virtue, 'You should do your own work, for I can teach only the way.'

    "He never became angry or impatient or spoke harshly to anyone, not even to those who opposed him. He always taught in such a way that everyone could understand. Each person thought the Buddha was speaking especially for him. The Buddha told his followers to help each other on the Way. Following is a story of the Buddha living as an example to his disciples.

    "The Buddha realized that that he was not the first to become a Buddha. ' There have been many Buddhas before me and will be many Buddhas in the future.'

    Source:

    Life of the Buddha

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 14, 2004 - 08:18 am
    Mahlia, you said that Arabs are upset about many issues in American culture, eg

    1 - Lax sexual morals
    2 - Extremely sexually provocative women's clothing
    3 - Extensiveness of alcohol and drug consumption.

    Is this not what is bothering conservative Christians? Is this a common ground which might help them to communicate?

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 14, 2004 - 09:30 am
    I finished watching that movie this morning. When I saw the "castigation" (beating) scene with Roman soldiers laughing at what was happening to the prisoner, who happened to be Jesus, I swear all I could think of was pictures I've seen of the treatment by American solders of Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib. Then I thought of the beheadings that have taken place on the part of Iraqis. These people are religious?

    This is a powerful, powerful movie, which is being seen by predominantly Christians in this country. There is a terrible portrayal of Jews in this movie. In fact, there is a terrible portrayal of anyone who was not a follower of Jesus in this film. To me, despite some truths in it which apply to today, "The Passion of the Christ" is a very, very disturbing kind of proselytizing.

    Mal

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 14, 2004 - 10:46 am
    Durant continues:-

    "Strengthened by victory, Mohammed used the customary morality of war. Asma, a Medinese poetess, having attacked him in her rhymes, Omeir, a blind Moslem, made his way into her room, and plunged his sword so fervently into the sleeping woman's breast that it affixed her to the couch.

    "In the mosque the next morning Mohammed asked Omeir:-'Hast thou slain Asma?' Answered Omeir:-'Yes, is there cause for apprehension?' Said the Prophet:-'None, a couple of goats will hardly knock their heads together for it.'

    "Afak, a centenarian convert to Judaism, composed a satire on the Prophet and was slain as he slept in his courtyard. A third Medinese poet, Kab ibn al-Ashraf, son of a Jewess, abandoned Islam when Mohammed turned against the Jews. He wrote verses prodding the Quraish to avenge their defeat and enraged the Moslems by addressing love sonnets to their wives in premature troubadour style. Asked Mohammed:-'Who will ease me of this man?' That evening the poet's seveed head was laid at the Prophet's feet.

    "In the Moslem view these executions were a legitimate defense against treason. Mohammed was the head of a state and had full authority to condemn."

    Robby

    winsum
    November 14, 2004 - 10:50 am
    unless you have credentials to do so, is often considered BAD MANNERS. I've run into it all my life and am willing to pay the price, Not everyone takes to it kindly and I often do . . pay the price. I've run into a few others here who also have that propensity. We don't name names. . . we carefully abide by the rules which discourage SPEAKING OUT even here on this discussion and others.

    It's not that people don't have questions so much as it is that they don't want to risk censure if they should draw attention to themselves from others who may not agree with their point of view. . . . . claire

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 14, 2004 - 10:52 am
    Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

    - - - Lord Acton

    How many times have I quoted that here?

    winsum
    November 14, 2004 - 10:55 am
    thank goodness for the FILIBUSTER . . . post election comment.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 14, 2004 - 11:03 am
    Any comments about Durant's words in Post 631 and Mohammed's use of power?

    Robby

    Scrawler
    November 14, 2004 - 12:28 pm
    We all know the significance of Sept. 11, 2001, but did you know that the British burned Washington City during the War of 1812 on that date destroying the White House.

    Could it be that the fanatics who flew into the Twin Towers knew more about us than we know about them?

    It is true that the children of today are bombarded with one-sided "news" - the US government's side. But I can remember in the 1960s not even knowing where Vietnam was on the map, yet 80% of my high school graduating class either died or were wounded there.

    On all sides of the coin we have three elements: people + government + fanatics. Sometimes they are one and the same and sometimes they are separate. And when we throw religion into the mix; it is a wonder there is anyone left on the planet alive.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 14, 2004 - 12:52 pm
    Yes, religion makes a difference. Apparently it was OK for Mohammed to have a number of wives. We are not used to cultures from different times and in different continents. On the other hand something like THIS makes us think.

    Robby

    winsum
    November 14, 2004 - 01:30 pm
    the mormans did it here in this country but of course god told them too. . . religion again. claire

    Fifi le Beau
    November 14, 2004 - 01:59 pm
    Robby asks Any comments about Durant's words in Post 631 and Mohammed's use of power?

    The casual use of murder by Mohammad and his followers, even for such a slight as a poem they suspected was about them, shows that they were perfectly willing to commit murder to achieve their goals.

    There would be no criticism allowed in their small corner of the world. They wanted complete and unconditional control of the masses in their vicinity. There would be no dissent, no freedom of thought. To think for yourself and reveal your thoughts, unless approved by Mohammad, was tantamount to a death sentence.

    The absolute control that he had over his neighbors was laid out in one of the links put here on the hadiths. In this link within a link I found myself reading from an Islamic site that went on and on about how and where to defecate, what to do afterward, should you wash or go to sleep after intercourse. How you were to wash was pages long. What if you were interrupted, or what a woman should do if menstruating. Could you sleep with a woman who was menstruating? If you simply touched her cloak, should you bathe? How should you bathe?

    The list is mindlessly carried to extremes. This is what total mind control does to people. They could no longer go to the bathroom by themselves without instructions.

    Fifi

    Persian
    November 14, 2004 - 02:01 pm
    It might help a bit in understanding the allowance for multiple wives (up to 4) in ISLAM if we think of the time period in which Islam was born and the number of widows and orphan children left alone. The distinction was ORIGINALLY to provide for these innocents; thus a man could marry 4 wives AS LONG AS HE PROVIDED SEPARATE, BUT EQUAL, HOUSING ACCOMMODATIONS FOR THEM. The wives and children were the responsibility of the man, who must provide for them, educate them and leave them a financial portion of his estate.

    Yet, as we know, whenever humans are involved, greed easily takes over. In ensuing years, men married 4 wives, often had numerous concubines, and within some branches of Islam, "temporary" marriages were valid. The latter was obviously for the "convenience" of the man, but served as "a gesture of respectability" towards the woman - an empty one, to be sure, but still a gesture.

    RE the Mormon break-away sect: I can understand their insistence on privacy and not communicating with the public. Yet congtrary to their hesitancy to speak about their customs, I've NEVER met a Muslim man who had multiple wives who would not discuss - often at length and in great detail - the REASON why Islam allows multiple wives; the very strict requirements regarding establising separate households for the wives and their respective children; and a rather tiring recitation of the minute details of the man's expected visitation schedule.

    I understand the reasoning of multiple wives in Islam, which usually results in quite large families. However, when I posed a question I've often wondered about to several Muslim men (including my husband!) if it would be OK for a woman past her child-bearing years to have multiple husbands, they were absolutely aghast. I'm still laughing about that!

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 14, 2004 - 02:37 pm
    "The Jews of Medina no longer liked this warlike faith which had once seemed so flatterngly kindred to their own. They laughed at Mohammed's interpretations of their Scriptures and his claim to be the Messiah promised by their prophets.

    "He retaliated with revelation in which Allah charged the Jews with corrupting the Scriptures, killing the prophets, and rejecting the Messiah. Originally he had made Jerusalem the qibla -- the point toward which Moslems should turn to prayer. In 624 he changed this to Mecca and the Kaaba. The Jews accused him of returning to idolatry.

    "About this time a Moslem girl visited the market of the Bani-Kainuka Jews in Medina. As she sat in a goldsmith's shop a mischievous Jew pinned her skirt behind her to her upper dress. When she arose she cried out in shame at her exposure. A Moslem slew the offending Jew whose brothers then slew the Moslem.

    "Mohammed marshaled his followers, blockaded the Banu-Kainuka Jews in their quarter for fifteen days, accepted their surrender and bade them, 700 in number, depart from Medina and leave all their possessions behind.

    "We must admire the restraint of Abu Sufyan who, after his unnatural vow, waited a year before going forth to battle Mohammed again. Early in 625 he led an army of 3000 men to the hill of Ohod, three miles north of Medina. Fifteen women, including Abu Sufyan's wives, accompanied the army and stirred it to fervor with wild songs of sorrow and revenge.

    "Mohammed could muster only a thousand warriors. The Moslems were routed. Mohammed fought bravely, received many wounds, and was carried half unconscious from the field. Abu Sufyan's chief wife Hind, whose father, uncle, and brother had been slain at Bedr, chewed the liver of the fallen Hamza -- who had slain her father -- and made anklets and bracelets for herself from Hamza's skin and nails.

    "Thinking Mohammed safely dead, Abu Sufyan returned in triumph to Mecca. Six months later the Prophet was sufficiently recovered to attack the Bani-Nadhir Jews, charging them with helping the Quraish and plotting against his life. After three weeks' siege they were allowed to emigrate, each family taking with it as much as a camel could carry. Mohammed appropriated some of their rich date orchards for the support of his household and distributed the remainder among the refugees.

    "He considered himself at war with Mecca and felt justified in removing hostile groups from his flanks."

    If Mohammed hadn't become angry at the Jews and, as a result, changed the point toward which Moslems should turn to pray, they might these days be facing Jerusalem five times daily.

    The Jews had originally seen Islam as very close to their own religion. Could this "similarity" be the cause of their constant disagreement in our era? Battling cousins?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 14, 2004 - 02:49 pm
    Here are a few meanings of QIBLA. Allow time for downloading.

    Robby

    Shasta Sills
    November 14, 2004 - 02:52 pm
    I'm trying hard to respect Mohammed, but Fifi keeps dropping these bombshells on us.

    I want to ask a dumb question. This will show my ignorance, but that hasn't ever stopped me so far. Why is the U.S. accused of taking their oil away from the Arabians? Oil is a commodity. If we want to buy their oil and they want to sell their oil, isn't this advantageous to both of us? Are we trying to steal it from them? Are we not paying a fair price for the oil?

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 14, 2004 - 02:55 pm
    As we move along, the temptation is to find ourselves asking political questions. May I ask that we continue to keep our minds in the era of 1500 years ago and stay with the actions of Mohammed.

    For those who cannot resist the temptation, there are political forums here on Senior Net.

    Robby

    Shasta Sills
    November 14, 2004 - 03:00 pm
    I didn't know that was a political question. I thought it was about economics.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 14, 2004 - 03:02 pm
    Shasta:-I agree with you that economics was as important 1500 years ago as now, eg the importance of the trade routes. But you asked about the U.S. which didn't exist then. What we try to do here (and which is exceedingly difficult) is to examine the reasons for the actions of people who lived 15 centuries ago, just as Durant is doing.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 14, 2004 - 03:08 pm
    SCRAWLER, when I was young Vietnam was known as Indochina. (Indochine, a protectorate of France.) It took me a long time to realize that Vietnam and Indochina were one and the same. I learned about the British burning Washington when I was in grammar school. (Elementary school) Weren't those 9/11 pilots Saudis? What's the education system like in Saudi Arabia -- or any of the other Muslim countries in the news?

    Friday night I was talking about Islam to a friend on the phone. He said it started as a warrior religion, and that made me think.

    Durant calls Islam a "warlike faith." I began to think about other religions that are warlike. Jesus was a peaceful man, but Christianity, or at least Christians, have turned it into a warlike religion. Onward Christian Soldiers!

    Buddhism is not a warlike religion, but the Buddhists and the Hindus certainly have gone at it in India, haven't they?

    SHASTA, Durant may be more subtle than the sources FIFI quotes, but he's dropping a few bombshells, too. What are those sources, FIFI? I'd like to know.

    Mal

    Persian
    November 14, 2004 - 04:40 pm
    FIFI - I'd be interested in reading your sources, too. And although the tediousness of reading such details about personal hygiene may seem outlandish to a Westerner living in the USA today, the lack of hygiene and extensive health issues which the tribes suffered in 7th century Arabia puts a slightly different perspective on the reason for the indepth details. And from a Muslim's standpoint today, the very detailed instructions are "reminders" that one is to take special care of the body.

    winsum
    November 14, 2004 - 05:20 pm
    "Where are we now? Where are we headed?



    Share your thoughts with us!"





    seems to me to be an invitation to make comparisons and comments about present day economics, religion, art, and other aspects of civilization as well as those of the six hundreds. . . . claire

    Fifi le Beau
    November 14, 2004 - 08:12 pm
    Robby asked that we not bring other books we have read or are currently reading into the discussion. I will abide by his request even though I answered Justin's question about the source of a previous post before reading Robby's request.

    I will abide by Robby's rules which I agree with, but if I have information that is relevant to Durant's writing stored in my own hardrive (brain), I will use it.

    Mohammad and his religion was not formed in a vaccuum. There were others there who lived through those times also, and they have told their story of what happened. I will read all sides and comment on it as long as I stay within Robby's rules.

    My last post came from Durant, and I was commenting on his words, about the killing of the poets, and Mohammads easy blase words to the killers. I specifically spoke about the use of power, and since when do I need a source to say what I think.

    The last part of my post about the hadiths came from an Islamic link posted here by someone other than me. I relayed what I read and gave my opinion, as I am nothing if without the ability to think for myself, as everyone else here.

    Fifi

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 14, 2004 - 08:43 pm
    FIFI, I've been in this discussion since it began, and I don't remember any restriction about mentioning books we have read or are reading along with The Story of Civilization. ROBBY will come in and tell me if I am wrong.

    Asking you for the source of quoted material is neither a criticism or an insult. In my own case, I'd like to know in case I ever have the means to add to my reference library, or want to add to my computer reference files.



    CLAIRE, this study of ancient history through Will and Ariel Durant's books has progressed without a hitch for over 3 years now without focusing on current events. It is impossible not to make comparisons between the past and today once in a while, but our primary aim in this discussion is to read, discuss and learn about history. As ROBBY said (and I agree): "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 14, 2004 - 09:26 pm
    Muhammad, the Last Prophet

    Fifi le Beau
    November 14, 2004 - 09:43 pm
    Durant writes......

    "The Jews of Medina no longer liked this warlike faith which had once seemed so flatterngly kindred to their own. They laughed at Mohammed's interpretations of their Scriptures and his claim to be the Messiah promised by their prophets.

    I once read an article by a Jewish writer who said that if the Jews of Medina had accepted Mohammad as a prophet and taken him into their tribes, he would have disappeared from history. Their scripture is long and complicated and by the time he learned all the rules, he would have been dead.

    Mohammad adopted the Jewish patriarch, Abraham as his own. He also used their prophets and incorporated them into Islam. He used their dietary laws and customs which were akin to Arabic culture. In other words the basis of his religion was Judaism as he knew and understood it.

    Mohammad wasn't planning a new religion, he wanted acceptance as a prophet and the long awaited Messiah of the Jews.

    So here we are, first the Jews say there is one god, and they are his chosen people. Jesus, a Jew is rejected as the Messiah, and a new religion is born becoming Christianity. Mohammad says he is the long awaited Messiah of the Jews, he is rejected, and Islam is born.

    All three of these religions were begun in the middle east, they all stem from Judaism and the leaders are all from the same general area and kin, just different tribes.

    One God.....or three.

    Fifi

    Justin
    November 14, 2004 - 10:44 pm
    My goodness, you folks have been moving along at a fast pace. I have had a bug in my body for the past few weeks and have been unable participate as often as I like but you have more than made up for any lack on my part.

    The posts have been educational and challenging. Mahlia, you have a wonderful ability to calm troubled waters when they appear without denying the trouble.

    Mal: Way back in 601 you mentioned a link that explains the position of Women of the Taliban. Can you provide that link, please?

    Justin
    November 14, 2004 - 11:37 pm
    The Koran seems to make no distinction in the application of it's tenets to behavior that is secular and to behavior that is religious. Both forms of behavior, secular and religious, are regulated for the faithful by the Koran. Business dealings, interaction between the sexes,interaction between Jews and Muslims, manner of dress, personal hygiene, all such human activity is regulated through the Koran.

    As a result, Muslim governments tend not to be secular and Muslims, in general, I think, tend to be aprehensive when their religious governments are challenged by foreign agents advancing secular ideas.

    It occurs to me that the efforts of the US in Afghanistan and Iraq have as an objective the substitution of a religious government for a secular one-one in which church and state are separate. That is one of the cornerstones of democratic government. It is one we are least likely to achieve in Muslim countries and I am not at all sure we are wise to try to encourage the separation.

    Persian
    November 15, 2004 - 12:17 am
    JUSTIN - glad you're feeling better and welcome back.

    Recently, one of my Muslim friends inquired about whether or not the vast amounts of money which were spent on the recent presidential election could have been allocated instead to the poorer sections of the USA and to those individuals and families most in need. He was, of course, thinking of the zakat which is a set sum of money given by Muslims during Ramadan as their charitable contributions. My friend also mentioned that as much as he enjoyed Americans and had developed very solid friendships here, he simply did NOT understand how Americans could approve so much money being used for political purposes, while there wre so many people in need.

    My son is currently serving in Afghanistan (after a ten month deployment in Iraq last year) and has witnessed first-hand the obstacles to introducing "Western democratic ways" in a country and to a culture which has depended on tribal collective decision making for centuries. Only half-jokingly, he gives the example of the situation being similar to Americans trying to negotiate and implement our ways on another inhabited planet (if one is ever identified), where democracy is totally unheard of. I'm not a great fan of science fiction, but even I could imagine how that might not work.

    As this discussion commenced shortly after the elections, I wondered how the Prophet Muhammad would have reacted to a new and unknown tribe (Americans - many claiming descent from the ancient Jews and Christians) trying to implement a new order (Democracy) in the ancient lands of Arabia.

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    November 15, 2004 - 03:31 am
    Mahlia, "trying to implement a new order (Democracy) in the ancient lands of Arabia."

    This should be self evident and how can "outsiders" teach Arabs a new order without speaking their language and understanding their religion?

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 15, 2004 - 04:21 am
    Mal is correct. At no time has anyone here been asked not to read other historical books while we are reading Durant or to comment on them. In fact, links are sometimes given to some of these other books. All we are asked to do is to keep focusing on the topic at hand. Please do not get ahead of the topic. We use Durant's words as a guide. This can be easily determined by using the GREEN quotes in the Heading which tell us in what section in Durant we are located and by reading the postings of other participants.

    The strength of this discussion group is not centered around Durant (he is used as a guide) but on the combination of reading his book plus our comments. The goal is not just to read but to comment on his words. We might find ourselves spending a day or more on reacting to just one paragraph of his.

    Justin, we felt that something serious was going on in your life as you are such a faithful participant (no pun intended). Chase the remainder of those bugs away and continue to share your thoughts with us. As for your finding so many posts while you were gone, I have often pointed out that The Story of Civilization is apparently one of the fastest moving forums in Books and Literature and perhaps in Senior Net. My recommendation is that participants check in here at least once daily and perhaps twice. I usually post Durant's words early in the morning (ET) each day and then again in the evening.

    Let us continue with what Durant is telling us today.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 15, 2004 - 04:38 am
    "The Prophet had by this time become an able general. During his ten years in Medina he planned sixty-five campaigns and raids and personally led twenty-seven.

    "But he was also a diplomat and knew when war should be continued by means of peace. He shared the longings of the Refugees to see their Meccan homes and families and of both Refugees and Helpers to visit again the Kaaba that had in their youth been the hearth of their piety. As the first apostles thought of Christianity as a form and reform of Judaism, so the Moslems thought of Mohammedanism as a change and development of the ancient Meccan ritual.

    "In 628 Mohammed sent the Quraish an offer of peace, pledging the safety of their caravans in return for permission to fulfill the rites of the annual pilgrimage. The Quraish replied that a year of peace must precede this consent.

    "Mohammed shocked his followers by agreeing. A ten years' truce was signed. The Prophet consoled his raiders by attacking and plundering the Khaibar Jews in their settlemen six days' journey northeast of Medina. The Jews defended themselves as well as they could. Ninety three of them died in the attempt. The rest at last surrendered.

    "They were allowed to remain and cultivate the soil but on condition of yielding all their property and half their future produce to the conqueror. All the survivors were spared except Kinana, their chieftain and his cousin who were beheaded for hiding some of their wealth.

    "Safiya, a seventeen-year old Jewish damsel, betrothed to Kinana, was taken by Mohammed as an added wife."

    I find it interesting that Mohammed's followers are "consoled" by giving them warfare. And, unless I am missing something, the Jews continued to follow their own faith. All Mohammed wanted was property, not for people to necessarily convert to Islam.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 15, 2004 - 04:52 am
    Click HERE to read the details of the battle with the Khaibar Jews.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 15, 2004 - 07:33 am
    The Taliban ladies auxiliary

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 15, 2004 - 07:36 am


    Safia -- from Mohammed and Mohammedism by S.W.Koelle

    The problem of abrogation in the Qur'an

    3kings
    November 15, 2004 - 01:27 pm
    ROBBY at the end of #659 you say :- "All Mohammed wanted was property, not for people to necessarily convert to Islam."

    I think this bares out my feeling that the mainspring of religions is economic considerations. 'Take the cash in hand, and waive the rest.....'( Omar Khayyam ) ++ Trevor

    winsum
    November 15, 2004 - 01:37 pm
    the catholic church owns a large amount of real estate. did they get all that from tithings or did they pay attention to investing. are they in business.

    Justin
    November 15, 2004 - 02:26 pm
    Of course they are in business but business has not been so good lately. Several diocese' have applied for bankruptcy to avoid paying claimants for sexual abuse. It is to be hoped that a diocese is not considered an independent unit, that all diocese are one in the Church and in the eyes of the State. These folks avoid paying taxes by agreeing not to play a role in elections. They void that exemption when they electioneer as they did in the last election.

    The Koran takes the position that church and state are one-that Allah rules everything. We got rid of Saddam but Allah the benevolent oriental despot has taken over for him. The US has not come to that but God is stronger in Washington today, than ever before.

    Justin
    November 15, 2004 - 02:42 pm
    Allah is a jealous God. The worship of any other God in any form whatever is idolotry and abomination. Does that sound familiar? How about the first commandment.(Well, maybe the second.)

    The Christian Trinity was seen as polytheism by Mohammed and the use of images was anathema. Neither painting nor sculpture was allowed by Mohammed for fear that such an image of a living thing might it self become an object of worship and thus encroach upon the worship of the one and only God. That sounds to me like the position of the iconoclasts of earlier Christian centuries.

    The words of the Koran are infallible. Does that sound familiar? In Christianity it is the Pope and Falwell who are infallible.

    The worst thing that could happen is something suggested earlier by Robby. Help the Muslims and Christians and Jews to recognize their similarities, stop hating each other, and come together. They would then burn me at the stake.

    Persian
    November 15, 2004 - 02:45 pm
    JUSTIN - bet you don't know how many Wiccans roam the halls of the Pentagon and are employed in the Defense Dept.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 15, 2004 - 02:58 pm
    Justin, you say:-"We got rid of Saddam but Allah the benevolent oriental despot has taken over for him."

    Please keep in mind that we may have Muslims reading our posts. It is our goal here to show brotherhood and understanding to people of all faiths and/or to people who are acknowledged agnostics and atheists --whatever our personal beliefs may be.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 15, 2004 - 03:17 pm
    Do you know how many Wiccans there are doing what you suggested, MAHLIA? I'd be interested in knowing.

    If there are other Muslims besides MAHLIA reading these messages, I wish they'd come in and post. In my tours around the Islamic and Muslim sites on the web I have found opinions about Islam and other religions which are different from those MAHLIA posts. We need and welcome as many different opinions and ideas in here as we can get.

    Don't be shy, LURKERS, and don't sit on your hands, post a message and let us know what you think.

    Mal

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 15, 2004 - 03:22 pm
    "In 629 the Medina Moslems, to the number of 2000, entered Mecca peacefully. While the Quraish, to avoid mutual irritations, retired to the hills, Mohammed and his followers made seven circuits of the Kaaba. The Prophet touched the Black Stone reverently with his staff but led the Moslems in shouting:-

    'There is no god but Allah alone!'

    "Meccans were impressed by the orderly behavior and patriotic piety of the exiles. Several influential Quraish, including the future generals Khalid and Amr, adopted the new faith. Some tribes in the neighboring desert offered Mohammed the pledge of their belief for the support of his arms.

    "When he returned to Medina he calculated that he was now strong enough to take Mecca by force.

    "The ten years' truce had eight years to run but Mohammed alleged that a tribe allied with the Quraish had attacked a Moslem tribe and thereby voided the truce (630). He gathered 10,000 men and marched to Mecca. Abu Sufyan, perceiving the strength of Mohammed's forces, allowed him to enter unopposed.

    "Mohammed responded handsomely by declaring a general amnesty for all but two or three of his enemies. He destroyed the idols in and around the Kaaba but spared the Black Stone and sanctioned the kissing of it.

    "He proclaimed Mecca the Holy City of Islam and decreed that no unbeliever should ever be allowed to set foot on its sacred soil. The Quraish abandoned direct opposition.

    "The buffeted preacher who had fled from Mecca eight years before was now master of all its life."

    Once again -- (how often have I said this these past three years) -- "might makes right!"

    Robby

    Shasta Sills
    November 15, 2004 - 03:30 pm
    What is the difference between the Koran and the Sunnah? It's not clear to me what the Sunnah is.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 15, 2004 - 03:38 pm
    "Meccans were impressed by the orderly behavior and patriotic piety of the exiles. Several influential Quraish, including the future generals Khalid and Amr, adopted the new faith. Some tribes in the neighboring desert offered Mohammed the pledge of their belief for the support of his arms."

    I don't know why but as I read this, these lyrics of a song from "How To Succced in Business Without Really Trying" came to mind:-

    You have the cool clear
    Eyes of a seeker of wisdom and truth;
    Yet there's that upturned chin
    And that grin of impetuous youth.
    Oh, I believe in you.
    I believe in you.

    I hear the sound of good, solid judgment
    Whenever you talk;
    Yet there's the bold, brave spring of the tiger
    That quickens your walk.
    Oh, I believe in you.
    I believe in you.

    And when my faith in my fellow man
    All but falls apart,
    I've but to feel your hand grasping mine
    And I take heart; I take heart.

    To see the cool, clear
    Eyes of a seeker of wisdom and truth.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 15, 2004 - 03:39 pm
    "In Islam, the Arabic word sunnah has come to denote the way Prophet Muhammad (saas), the Messenger of Allah, lived his life. The Sunnah is the second source of Islamic jurisprudence, the first being the Qur'an. Both sources are indispensable; one cannot practice Islam without consulting both of them. The Arabic word hadith (pl. ahadith) is very similar to Sunnah, but not identical. A hadith is a narration about the life of the Prophet (saas) or what he approved - as opposed to his life itself, which is the Sunnah as already mentioned."

    Source:

    Sunnah and Hadith

    Persian
    November 15, 2004 - 04:50 pm
    MAL - I only know two Wiccans personally in US Govt service - both of whom I invited as guest speakers to one of my comparative religion classes some years ago. We were discussing ISLAM at the time and it was a very interesting evening, since we had a good mixture of Jewish and Christian students, as well as a few Middle Eastern and African-American Muslims. Knowing the background of the two guests, I also invited an Asian Muslim colleague from another university to join us. Thus, we were able to undertake some really exceptional discussions. Quite an evening.

    I, too, have come across a wide selection of explanations from Muslim commentators with backgrounds quite different than mine. I agree it would be quite interesting - and helpful to posters here to have a variety of Muslim contributors.

    Several times I have sent messages to Muslims whom I know personally (all educators/writers/scholars) inviting them to visit SN. And I've also invited several non-Muslim academics who specialize in Islamic studies to visit. My understanding is that they simply do not have the time.

    Several months ago, when the SN Religion Related Books group was discussing Charles Kimball's WHEN RELIGION BECOMES EVIL and Bruce Feiler's ABRAHAM, I invited both of them (followed by a second invitation from the DL). I received thank you messages, but they were otherwise engaged. I've invited John Esposito, Director of Georgetown University's Center on Islamic Studies and Sulayman N'Yang, former Ambassador, Chair of the Dept. of African Studies and now a distinguished Islamic scholar at Howard University. Again, I received gracious replies, but their schedules did not allow them to take on another "visitation."

    Additionally, I've invited an Egyptian Muslim from the World Bank (with whom I worked at the Egytpian Bureau in Washington) and an Egyptian Coptic Christian from the Library of Congress. Same response.

    Since relocating to North Carolina, I have invited Imams from two local mosques to visit SN. Both listened to my request and said "let me think about it." I've never heard from them again. In this case, my guess is that they are simply not eager to put themselves in a position with an audience of non-Muslims who may (with all good intentions) ask what is to the listener provocative questions. Even in a friendly, welcoming environment, Muslims are often NOT eager to respond to detailed questions about ISLAM from non-Muslims, because they are unsure of the response once they answer. Many Muslims, especially those from abroad, are not accustomed to the very direct, fast-paced questions and answers which are part of the normal American style of general communication.

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    November 15, 2004 - 05:00 pm
    Mahlia, What are Wiccans please?

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 15, 2004 - 05:01 pm
    I have a patient who is a Wiccan. That is not the reason why she is a patient!

    Robby

    3kings
    November 15, 2004 - 05:50 pm
    ELOISE have a look in Google. I too, had to do that, not having heard the term before reading in SNet ++ Trevor

    moxiect
    November 15, 2004 - 06:13 pm


    Wiccan = witches covens

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    November 15, 2004 - 06:19 pm
    As Trevor suggested I found this in Google about WICCANS. It was new to me. Interesting.

    Justin
    November 15, 2004 - 06:23 pm
    Mahlia: Only two wiccans in the defense dept? My My. The rest must reside in the executive branch.

    Robby: No intent to hurt anyone's feelings. It's just that this God appears to be all powerful and that leaves out human government of a democratic kind. I think we are chasing a wisp that will not be caught.

    Fifi le Beau
    November 15, 2004 - 08:27 pm
    Mohammad set the example with his marriage to a six year old girl.

    In this article in my paper yesterday a nine year old girl was sold to a man nearing 50 who took her as his sex slave. Like Mohammad he claims the child as his wife, but that is not possible because a child cannot agree to such a contract.

    Anyone who defends this inhuman act is as guilty as the rapist.

    The chained bride

    Fifi

    kiwi lady
    November 15, 2004 - 08:50 pm
    I know I am way behind in this discussion but I would like to say that I second Trevors earlier opinion about the roots of terrorism. The Leaders of this movement use religion to rally the poor and dispossessed to their cause.

    You would be surprised what Muslims know about Christianity. They know a jolly lot more than we know about Islam and they also acknowledge Christ but only as a prophet.

    I think we have no right to democratise any nation by force. They may choose a different type of democracy than that which we have embraced. Also true democracy comes from the overwhelming will of the people. There has to be determination by the people. It does not work any other way.

    Carolyn

    moxiect
    November 15, 2004 - 09:36 pm


    It seems to me that many of prophets good/bad had the charisma to pull the people together. Democracies chosen by the multitude of people of any nation perhaps can work.

    In reading SOC I have learned a great deal and yet I still believe that the circle is never ending, mans inhumanity to man, intolerance vs tolerance, avarice outweighs greed, and power over the masses creates a very undesirable way of life for anyone. Out of chaos some good does prevail.

    Persian
    November 15, 2004 - 09:54 pm
    JUSTIN - I really don't know how many Wiccans are employed in the Defense Dept. The two individuals I know personally are US Govt. employees, but NOT in that Dept.

    CAROLYN - your comment above about Muslims knowing quite a bit about Christianity and accepting Jesus as a Prophet would fit right in to a discussion with Muslims about ISLAM.

    In my personal experience (over many years) one of the major factors which has been a negative influence in preventing more Muslims from interacting with Chrsitians is once they reach the point in the discussion where they explain that they consider Jesus as a Prophet, but do NOT consider him the Son of God, Christians often respond negatively. I've been present at discussions where Christians responded rudely, loudly, negatively and made extremely derogatory comments about the speaker. And yet these were well educated, professional people in a public setting!

    However, I've also been present when ignorant and narrow-minded Afghan Muslims talked as though they were from another planet. A bit off-topic, but I also remember being spit upon by a Hassid visiting a university office from New York when he thought I had brushed against his coat sleeve in passing. By the time one of our university security officers arrived, the visitor was picking himself up off the floor.

    People are different around the world, but if we - who are legitimately attempting to learn about others different from ourselves - can maintain our dignity and respect for the differences, it's a lot easier - and much more interesting.

    FIFI - indeed that is one of the ugliest aspects of Afghan culture. And in recent years, there have been many Afghan women living outside the country who have returned to their birth country to help reduce and eliminate this type of child abuse. I have two Afghan women friends in Washington who quit their jobs as lawyers to do exactly that.

    Yet this type of behavior also exists in the USA, but it is just not as publicly discussed. And it most certainly exists in Asia (especially Indonesia, which has the largest Muslim population world-wide, and Thailand), where child prostitution and slavery is widespread and very common.

    Fifi le Beau
    November 15, 2004 - 10:46 pm
    Durant tells us that Mohammad is back in Mecca, circling the Kaaba once again. He makes a complete change in his religious views by giving up on being the Jewish Messiah, and having Jerusalem as the holy city.

    His followers are restless and want to return to Mecca. Perhaps he might lose control over them if they decide to leave, so he makes an agreement with the Meccans. Like the other agreements he made in Medina with the Jews, it doesn't take him long to break this one also.

    He begins to incorporate the pagan god Allah and the Kaaba where Allah and his three daughters were worshiped as idols into his new faith. He declares Mecca to be the holy city instead of Jerusalem, and denies entrance to anyone who isn't muslim.

    There have been non muslims who have gone there dressed as pilgrims and seen the entire ceremony. There have also been battles fought there for control of that lucrative business in our lifetime.

    As for Mohammad making laws against the reproduction of images, that came straight out of the Hebrew bible. It was Jewish law. When Abdul Aziz took over and formed modern day Saudi Arabia, he at first refused to allow his picture to be taken. The Arabs soon found a way around the religious edict, and the photo was made.

    Like Mohammad in one of the recent links, if the religious law prohibits something you want changed, just write another verse to contradict the first one. Or as Abdul Aziz did have some cleric write an excuse.

    Fifi

    Fifi le Beau
    November 15, 2004 - 11:05 pm
    Mahlia, the abuse of children does happen in America, but we have laws against such crimes. Those who abuse children are arrested, and anyone who has sex with a girl under the age of thirteen will face 30 years in prison in my state. The law states that it doesn't matter if she had sex before, or was working as a prostitute, a child under thirteen cannot agree to sex.

    Over thirteen and until age eighteen, a man can be charged with statutory rape, a felony.

    Child abuse does not happen just in Afghanistan, but all over the world including the middle east. According to the present Queen of Jordan child abuse and the abuse of women is the hidden shame of her country and others in the middle east. Even if they have passed laws, if they are not enforced, they are useless.

    Fifi

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 16, 2004 - 03:46 am
    Mohammed Victorious

    630-2

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 16, 2004 - 03:53 am
    "Mohammed's two remaining years -- spent mostly at Medina -- were a continuing triumph. After some minor rebellions all Arabia submitted to his authority and creed.

    "The most famous Arabian poet of the time, Kab ibn Zuhair, who had written a diatribe against him, came in person to Medina, surrendered himself to Mohammed, proclaimed himself a convert, received pardon, and composed so eloquent a poem in honor of the Prophet that Mohammed bestowed his mantle upon him.

    "In return for a moderate tribute the Christians of Arabia were taken under Mohammed's protection and enjoyed full liberty of worship but they were forbidden to charge interest on loans.

    "We are told that he sent envoys to the Greek emperor, the Persian king, and the rulers of Hira and Ghassan, inviting them to accept the new faith. Apparently there was no reply.

    "He observed with philosophic resignation the mutual destruction in which Persia and Byzantium were engaged but he does not seem to have entertained any thought of extending his power outside of Arabia."

    Your comments, please?

    Robby

    Ann Alden
    November 16, 2004 - 09:24 am
    Today Curious Minds starts on new topic and I hope everyone will join us for little while and tell us what they think of a "Teaching Tuneup". Do We Need A Teaching Tuneup?

    Scrawler
    November 16, 2004 - 11:58 am
    Mahlia:"People are different around the world, but if we - who are legitmately attempting to learn about others different from ourselves - can maintain our dignity and respect for the differences, it's a lot easier - and much more interesting."

    Thank you for those words.

    "And before we judge of them too harshly we must remember what ruthless and utter destruction our own speciies has wrought, not only upon animals, such as the vanished bison and the dodo, but upon its own inferior races. The Tasmanians, in spite of their human likeness, were entirely swept out of existence in a war of extermination waged by European immigrants, in the space of fifty years. Are we such apostles of mercy as to complain if the Martians warred in the same spirit?" ("The War of the Worlds" by H.G. Wells 1898)

    Forgive me Robby, for using this quote which is not from Durant. But I felt that his words were phrased much better than I could ever write. Just as Wells was trying to send a message to the people of his time; we also must do the same. All human beings tend to fear what is different from themselves. In order to understand the present, we must first understand the past. This is what we are doing in "The Story of Civilization." And in "An Age of Faith" we are taking the first step in understanding the differences in the various religions, but what strikes me is the similarities that they have.

    In each religion studied so far they believe in a divine or superpower(s) to be obeyed and worshiped as the creator(s) and rulers(s)of the universe and they all have a code of ethics and/or a philosophy.

    Justin
    November 16, 2004 - 01:25 pm
    Scrawler: Quotes from Wells are fair comment. Don't apologize for referencing him. We are not restricted to Durant.

    I agree with you. There are similarities, many of them, in the Abrahamic religions. The God of the Hebrews was a jealous, vindictive God. The God of the Christians demanded torture for heresy and Allah allows the abuse of women and children. These are not socially acceptable characteristics but that seems to be ignored by followers. Ask a Christian what it is that draws him to God and he will say,"Love." So too, will a Muslim and a Hebrew respond.

    Nothing I see in this context can be explained with human reasoning. It is entirely illogical and yet it persists. If God gave us the power to reason we should worship him by using our intellects not by accepting the unreasonable.

    winsum
    November 16, 2004 - 01:53 pm
    so god is irrational? . . . a nut?

    Shasta Sills
    November 16, 2004 - 02:58 pm
    I didn't know that Mohammed started out by claiming he was the Messiah that the Jews were expecting. How interesting! That's two major prophets who offered themselves to the Jews; and the Jews turned them both down. Those Jews are very particular people and they are still waiting for just the right man. I wonder if they will ever find him.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 16, 2004 - 04:03 pm
    Scrawler:-As Justin said, we welcome quotes by anyone so long as the subject relates to our general topic of the progress of mankind or in the immediate instance, the actions of Mohammed.

    It is always helpful in this discussion group to re-read the Heading which reminds us of the questions we are trying to answer.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 16, 2004 - 04:15 pm
    "Mohammed's days were filled with the chores of government. He gave himself conscientiously to details of legislation, judgment, and civil, religious, and military organization.

    "One of his least inspired acts was his regulation of the calendar. This had consisted among the Arabs, as among the Jews, of twelve lunar months, with an intercalary month every three years to renew concord with the sun. Mohammed ruled that the Moslem year whould always consist of twelve lunar months, of alternately thirty and twenty-nine days. As a result the Moslem calendar lost all harmony with the seasons and gained a year upon the Gregorian calendar every thirty-two and a half years.

    "The Prophet was not a scientific legislator. He drew up no code or digest, had no system. He issued edicts according to the occasion. If contradictions developed he smoothed them with new revelations that sternly superseded the old.

    "Even his most prosaic directives might be presented as revelations from Allah. Harassed by the necessity of adopting this lofty method to mundane affairs, his style lost something of its former eloquence and poetry. But perhaps he felt that this was amall price to pay for having all his legislation bear the awesome stamp of deity.

    "As the same time he could be charmingly modest. More than once he admitted his ignorance. He protested against being taken for more than a fallible and mortal man. He claimed no power to predict the future or to perform miracles.

    "However, he was not above using the method of revelation for very human and personal ends, as when a special message from Allah sanctioned his desire to marry the pretty wife of Zaid, his adopted son."

    How does that expression go? -- "My mind is made up; don't confuse me with facts."

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 16, 2004 - 04:20 pm
    Do I contradict myself? Well, then, I contradict myself. I contain multitudes.

    - - Walt Whitman in "Song of Myself"

    JoanK
    November 16, 2004 - 05:20 pm
    My local PBS station (WETA in DC) is showing a program on Rome in the first century. It may be in your areas as well. I won't be able to watch it, but maybe some of you might like to.

    Justin
    November 16, 2004 - 06:27 pm
    Claire: God is not irrational. Remember he/she exists only in the mind of man. It is man who is irrational... or as you suggest... nuts. A good speaker, such as, Mohammad, can convince millions of his authenticity.

    Persian
    November 16, 2004 - 06:37 pm
    If Muhammad were alive today, I wonder who would be more eloquent - he or Bill Clinton?

    Justin
    November 16, 2004 - 07:05 pm
    There is an explanation for the failure of the Middle East to advance economically as rapidly as Europe. I'm sure the issue is more complex than I intend to suggest but one element stands out.

    The Koran prohibits usury and gambling. In one case Mohammad left a Christian tribe in peace but forbade them to charge interest. He was lenient toward debtors,thus removing any incentive to risk one's assets-to gamble. Caravans could operate in a barter system but could not greatly expand without lending money for interest. Mohammad further discouraged caravan activity by attacking and looting them. Someone other than Muslims had to fund the caravans if they were to continue.

    The Jews on the other hand were left to follow their own rules-rules which did not forbid charging a price for the use of money. How much they contributed to the success of caravan life, I'm not sure, but I do know that later in Europe they banked the entire continent when the Christians also forbade charging a price for money.

    Justin
    November 16, 2004 - 07:08 pm
    A more apt comparison might be with Billy Grahamm.

    Persian
    November 16, 2004 - 08:12 pm
    I was thinking of Muhammad not only from the religious standpoint, but also as a successful businessman of his time, as well as having a hand in the political climate (although often not directly, but through intermediaries). However, it would also be interesting to hear him in discussion with someone as respected as Billy Graham.

    Sunknow
    November 16, 2004 - 08:18 pm
    I know I should just keep reading, and not speak, but.....

    I am faithfully reading all these post. Still I cannot say that I find anything at all admirable about Mohammad. Fascinating, and oh, so interesting, yes....but I cannot understand how a religion could be founded by such a violent man, who ".....more than once....admitted his ignorance".

    The question of who to compare him to....shouldn't it be the Christ that Christianity was based on? Have I forgot something? Did Christ strike men dead with swords, take their belongings, and add any riches to his own coffers? Leave the slain men's families in poverty, making them slaves or worse? When later Christian wars were fought, they were not fought by Him, but by misguided men, suposedly, in his name.

    Mohammad seems to have been a clever man, but filled with selfish and evil intentions. People must have followed him because they were afraid of him. Who would not be? He set himself up above his people, and used every ounce of power he had against them, to his own benefit.

    What kind of Prophet could he be? He more or less presented himself, as a revelations from Allah.

    I find it pitiful that his people believed him. Of course, I confess that I am often stunned at the gullibility of some of our own "educated" people, so maybe it was truly unavoidable at that early time in history.....they had no one else to believe.

    Am I being too hard?

    Sun

    winsum
    November 16, 2004 - 08:25 pm
    a cynic. . knowing well what could be tolerated in terms of the unreal and magical and using it for his earthly and personal purposes..the busnessman at heart, but wanting to be understood as MORE than that. He made it happen due to the gullability of the people. . . a trait which seems to be universal in time and space.

    Justin
    November 16, 2004 - 10:05 pm
    Mahlia:You don't think Billy Graham was a successful businessman? I thought he was religious, politically successful, and a good businessman. How about Dr. Shuler? ("For a donation of x dollars I will send you this keepsake to put under your pillow at night.") He was not very political but he had his eye on the business end of the pulpit.

    Religion is very useful to politicians and to men interested in making a good living. Mohammad, as one says in homely speech, "had his head on straight." He made it very clear that he was to have the women he wanted, when he wanted them. All the booty was his but five parts for me and one part for you is acceptable.

    It is a wonder that folks don't catch on to these guys. Someone posted earlier "there is a human need for religious ideas." Men want to buy into a paradise with 17 virgins all to themselves. I don't think I'd be man enough for all that. One was quite enough.

    Fifi le Beau
    November 16, 2004 - 10:31 pm
    Mohammad so far........

    He went through much trial and error in establishing his new 'one god' theory in Arabia. His own clan held the concession for the Kaaba which supported the worship of many gods.

    He was driven from his hometown of Mecca by his own clan, and went to Medina which was heavily Jewish at that time. He used their prophets and laws to form much of his work. His prophecy was based on the Jewish foundation myth of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, and others. When the Jews rejected him as the Messiah, he turned on them and drove out those who weren't killed.

    He only had his followers at Medina, and they wanted to go home to Mecca. He was very clever in doing an about face, returning to Mecca and incorporating the Kaaba into muslim worship. He kept the Quarish god of Allah and destroyed the others. As was said, his families personal god became the god of all Arabia.

    He seemed to know what his fellow Arabs would accept and what they wouldn't, and he very cleverly put it all together. By mixing paganism, Judaism, and a bit of Christianity he came up with a simple faith cleverly designed to keep the followers attentive at all times. The very act of praying toward Mecca five times a day would never let them forget.

    He altered his initial revelation from god to pray fifty times a day toward Jerusalem, to the more realistic figure of five toward Mecca. Mohammad seemed to take a more practical approach than god. Had he kept the fifty prayers daily, it would certainly been difficult when you were raiding and robbing a caravan, or in one of the many battles against the Jews.

    Kindly and murderous, generous and avaricious, dishonest and faithful, cautious and brave. Mohammad had all these traits, but something more that caused people to follow him and worship him almost as much as they did the god he spoke about. He told them, I am the prophet of god, and he speaks through me. I alone have this revelation and you must follow my words.

    I am reminded of Jim Jones and his followers who also believed in him, and followed him to their death. It is said he had a special charisma and magnetism that drew people to him, who followed him blindly and willingly. There have been hundreds and perhaps thousands of these types through history. I have never understood this phenomena.

    It happens in all cultures and no country is exempt. The young Chinese man who proclaimed he was Christ got thousands to follow him, and when it was over 50,000 people lay dead, including him.

    In this country today we have Kim Myung Moon who said he is Christ, and recently had himself crowned 'King' in the Senate Office building in Washington D.C. with several members of congress on hand. He owns the Washington Times, UPI, and much more here in our own country, and even though he went to prison many people follow him here, though it is said most of his followers live in Korea. He however has become very rich in his 'ministry', and wealth buys its own brand of worshipers.

    Fifi

    Justin
    November 16, 2004 - 10:34 pm
    Mohammad gave some good advice. In fact, his human relationship counsel met a high ethical standard. "Be kind to your neighbor. Draw the veil over him. Avoid injury.Look upon him with an eye of kindness.If you see him doing evil, forgive him. If you see him doing good to you, proclaim your thankfulness." (Arnold and Guillaume, Legacy of Islam p308)

    Persian
    November 16, 2004 - 10:40 pm
    SUN - from my personal perspective, No, I don't think you are being too hard. And why shouldn't you pose your comments, just like anyone else? That is how we all learn about the topic - not just from reading, but also from each other - sharing ideas, perceptions and different interpretations.

    JUSTIN - certainly I think Billy Graham is a successful businessman and politically astute. As a teenager in California, I volunteered with the Youth for Christ evangelical teams whenever Dr. Graham came to our area for his mega crusades. I spent alot of time with his local leadership and learned much of what I know about Dr. Graham from them. Yet when I think of Billy Graham, I tend to think of him as I remember him personally - from a religious standpoint.

    Justin
    November 16, 2004 - 10:44 pm
    Fifi: I had no idea Rev. Moon owned the Washington Times and UPI. I know he is the current Messiah. He is a fellow who knows how to work the business end of the pulpit. He and Mohammad have something in common. Good business sense.

    Sunknow
    November 16, 2004 - 11:24 pm
    Justin - I agree, I think both Billy Graham and Robert Shuler were VERY successful businessmen. But like Mahlia suggests: I also think first of religion when I hear Graham's name. With Schuler I believe he was more "up front" with the business aspect of his ministry, but it never kept me from admiring him.

    Fifi -- Yes, I admit I thought of Jim Jones several days back in reference to the spell Mohammad cast over his followers. A good reference. Kim Myung Moon had slipped my mind, though I don't know how. You're correct, he owns a massive amount of property and a number of business in this country. Do you think his "flock" is truly fanatical? I more often think of them as downright silly, which is not much of a compliment. They may be totally mesmerized by him. I do remember reading about his playing around in Washington D.C., and suspect he can buy the attention of certain members of Congress when he wants it. As you said: "wealth buys its own brand of worshipers". There was also the group that committed mass suicide a few years back.

    So the conclusion is, then, that Mohammad's followers found whatever they were seeking, in him? It must be mankind's nature to need someone to look up to, to worship, to follow in order to feel accepted and secure, regardless of the worthiness of that idol. Could this be the flaw in what is called "blind faith"?

    Sun

    winsum
    November 16, 2004 - 11:27 pm
    someone to look up to, to worship, to follow in order to feel accepted and secure

    isn't that what we get from our good parents? . . . claire

    Justin
    November 16, 2004 - 11:45 pm
    The herd instinct may be part of it too. What do you think Robby? Is sun onto something?

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 17, 2004 - 04:22 am
    Sun, you say:-"The question of who to compare him to....shouldn't it be the Christ that Christianity was based on? Have I forgot something? Did Christ strike men dead with swords, take their belongings, and add any riches to his own coffers? Leave the slain men's families in poverty, making them slaves or worse? When later Christian wars were fought, they were not fought by Him, but by misguided men, suposedly, in his name."

    Very true, Sun, but if I remember correctly from Durant's third volume, "Caesar and Christ," while these might have been the personality traits of Jesus, it was Paul who developed the Christianity that later came into existence. And Paul, to simplify, proselytized in a hard forward-moving business-like way. A comparison of Mohammed with Paul might be more appropos.

    I would agree with you, Justin, that the herd instinct comes very much into play as a religion develops. What member of a church who has doubts about his faith will stand up in the congregation and announce that he is thinking differently from the others? Another old platitude:-"Safety in numbers."

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 17, 2004 - 04:45 am
    "Mohammed's ten wives and two concubines have been a source of marvel, merriment, and envy to the Western world. We must continually remind ourselves that the high death rate of the male among the ancient and early medieval Semites lent to polygamy, in Semitic eyes, the aspect of a biological necessity, almost a moral obligation.

    "Mohammed took polygamy for granted and indulged himself in marriage with a clear conscience and no morbid sensuality. Aisha, in a tradition of uncertain authority, quoted him as saying that the three most predcious things in this world are women, fragrant odors, and prayers.

    "Some of his marriages were acts of kindness to the destitute widows of followers or friends, as in the case of Omar's daughter Hafsa. Some were diplomatic marriages, as in the case of Hafsa - to bind Omar to him -- and the daughter of Abu Sufyan -- to win an enemy. Some may have been due to a perpetually frustrated hope for a son.

    "All his wives after Khadija were barren which subjected the Prophet to much raillery. Of the children borne to hinm by Khadija only one survived him -- Fatima. Mary, a Coptic slave presented to him by the Negus of Abyssinia, rejoiced him, in the last year of his life, with a son but Ibrahim died after fifteen months.

    "His crowded harem troubled him with quarrels, jealousies, and demands for pin money. He refused to indulge the extravagance of his wives but he promised them paradise and for a time he dutifully spent a night with each of themn in rotation. The master of Arabia had no apartment of his own.

    "The alluring and vivacious Aisha, however, won so many attentions out of her turn that the other wives rebelled until the matter was settled by a special revelation:-

    'Thou canst defer whom thou wilt of them and receive of them whom thou wilt. Whomsoever thou desirest of those whom thou has set aside, it is no sin for thee. That is better that they may be comforted and not grieve and may all be pleased with what thou givest them.'"

    Apparently Allah paid attention to the most minute detail and revealed His decisions usually to Mohammed's benefit.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 17, 2004 - 08:54 am
    Jesus didn't write the New Testament. Many different authors did, and they don't all agree. One writer says one thing is true, and another says another one is, depending on what kind of person he was.

    Mohammed claimed to take dictation from Allah. What he needed was a good editor to catch him on repetitions and contradictions!

    Who wrote this all down, this Qur'an holy book? Wonder if Mohammed's scribes threw in some stuff of their own or twisted things to their own advantage the way scribes and translators changed the Bible?

    The Qur'an was and still is pretty much oral. Did you ever play the game where you whisper a sentence into somebody's ear and that person whispers what he or she hears to the next person, on and on until much of the sentence and meaning are changed?

    I maintain that the New Testament is just as inconsistent and contradictory as the Qur'an is. The Old Testament is awash in contradictions.

    One thing that has bothered me practically all my life is that you can find anything you want in the Bible. You want murder and war? It's in there, sometimes with permission to commit and wage it.

    You want love and sex? It's in there. Check out the Songs of Solomon, then go to the New Testament and read where all these romantic attractions are sinful and wrong.

    You want incest and immorality? It's in the Bible.

    You want to know how to succeed in business? It's in there with other chapters which tell you that's wrong; you're supposed to sacrifice and go without.

    How's a girl supposed to know which end is up with these books? Or a guy?

    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 17, 2004 - 09:33 am
    Ever hear of the Messianic Complex? "The Messianic Complex is a psychological state in which the individual believes him/herself to be the saviour of the world." (WordIQ.com)

    Freud coined the phrase "Herd Instinct". Madison Avenue certainly knows about this. I read somewhere that "Corporate PR experts see people as 'a herd waiting to be led.' "

    Is that what happened and happens to human beings? Alone they are random, and, yes, alone and probably feeling vulnerable, a not pleasant situation or experience for most. Somebody with a Messianic Complex comes along, gives them the hard or soft sell, and they follow and become part of the herd and do his or her bidding.

    How many times in the Bible do we read about the shepherd and his flock? Given the right sales pitch from a convincing salesperson, people will buy anything -- even war against people who don't believe the product others buy is all it's cracked up to be and don't buy it. People will buy anything if they're told "it's a good thing," especially if they're told it's good in the eyes of the Lord, Allah, or whatever higher power that's named.

    Mal

    BaBi
    November 17, 2004 - 10:29 am
    MAL, I think it helps to remember that the Bible is not 'a' book; it is a collection of books. In the Old Testament, not all the books were regarded by the Jewish assemblers as 'scripture'. Some, such as the Song of Solomon, were Writings; ie., literature important to Jewish history and culture.

    In the New Testament Gospels, we have men reporting the events they lived through, what they saw and heard, as they understood it. It would be suspicious indeed, if these different people all saw and heard exactly the same things! Luke wasn't even there at the time the events occurred. He gathered his information by interviewing and working with the people who were there. We hear the story of Mary from Luke, because he was the only one who thought her story was worth telling and took the time to learn it from her.

    The events these men described were real, and they witnessed to them. No group of witnesses sees exactly the same thing. And the things they see and hear are necessarily influenced by their perception of them. The truth at the center of all this remains the same.

    Babi

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 17, 2004 - 11:16 am
    BaBi, my intention in Post #715 was to show that there are contradictions and inconsitencies in the Bible just as there are in the Qur'an.

    If the truth of the message is the same, why don't all Christians live by the Golden Rule?
    "So whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them; for this is the Law and the prophets." (Matthew 7:12)

    BaBi
    November 17, 2004 - 11:29 am
    <bg> So, does everyone --does anyone-- you know live by what they know to be true, Mal? Like, we know what a truly healthy lifestyle is, but that doesn't mean we are going to abide by it 100%. Hopefully, we try to do our best, but recognize that great truth: "The flesh is weak".

    Babi

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 17, 2004 - 12:12 pm
    There's an old saying that goes, "Ninety million Frenchmen can't be wrong." Everywhere I go today, I'm in the tiny, supposed-to-be-silent minority.

    Mal

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    November 17, 2004 - 03:05 pm
    Mal, France's population today is close to 60 million according to http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=france%27s+population&meta=">THIS. It's the first time I hear of the expression "Ninety million Frenchmen can't be wrong", that's funny.

    Speaking of minorities, in Quebec the percentage of practicing evangelical Christians is .065%. Now that is a minority but while the Catholic churches are virtually empty, evangelical churches are very active in some of the downtown churches in Montreal. The largest membership is aged between 20 and 40 McGill and Concordia University students and graduates. We have several Synagogues and Mosques as many Arabs have immigrated here since the past 10 years. These religious groups live side by side peacefully as they have the full protection of the law.

    Éloïse

    Shasta Sills
    November 17, 2004 - 03:12 pm
    I think it's not just the herd instinct that makes people follow any self-proclaimed messiah that comes along. It's our sense of mortality. We are all going to die. Our lives are as meaningless as the sands washed out into the ocean. We desperately want to believe that we matter. If somebody -- anybody! -- can supply some kind of meaning to our lives, we follow him blindly.

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 17, 2004 - 03:21 pm
    SHASTA, in my opinion you are absolutely right. That's all part of the bill of goods these fellas try to sell. I don't think my life is meaningless and doesn't matter, even without the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

    ELOISE, the expression is "fifty million people", not "ninety". I accidentally added a few. Look on a Search Engine. You'll find it.

    Mal

    winsum
    November 17, 2004 - 03:46 pm
    my stoneware is non biodegradable and the earthern ware pretty much so and all are signed by MEEEEEE. and then there is all that other art work. . signed and some of it good enough to survive in the collections of others. . . at least for a while, a long while. That could be one of the reasons I keep doing it. .. . claire

    kiwi lady
    November 17, 2004 - 04:17 pm
    We have to remember when talking about Christianity that Christ said "I bring you a new Covenant". His message was peace not war. A Christian by their very name are to adhere to the teachings of Christ not the writings in the old Testament much of which is Jewish writings about Jewish history although we have the writings of the prophets at the end of all the books.

    If all Christians and all Muslims adhered to the message of the founders of their faiths we would not be in the situation we are in today. Talk to most muslims and they will tell you that jihad is not holy war. Mahlia could explain this better.

    Justin
    November 17, 2004 - 04:31 pm
    BaBi: The third of the Canonical books attributed to Solomon is the "Song of Songs. In the Douay version it is called the Canticle of Canticles. The book is a part of the Hebrew Canon. It is on the accepted Hebrew list of books included according to the Law and the Prophets.

    The book is a story of love between a bridegrooom and his bride. Religions, embarassed by a description of love between a man and a woman, have exegetically added allegory to the the story. Jews would have one believe it is a description of love beteen Yahwey and Israel. Catholics see it as love between Christ and the Church. Others see it as love between man and his soul.

    There is so little love in the testaments that it seems a shame you are willing to knock off one of the few that exist. What do you do with the Book of Ruth?

    Justin
    November 17, 2004 - 04:35 pm
    Now that you have me on Solomon I might as well point out that Sol was an experienced lover. In Kings 11:3 we find he had seven hundred wives and three hundred concubines. He was a man to set an example for Mohammad.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 17, 2004 - 04:52 pm
    As usual, lots of lively cross conversation. Durant continues:-

    "Women and power were Mohammed's only indulgence. For the rest he was a man of unassuming simplicity. The apartments in which he successively dwelt were cottages of unburnt brick, twelve or fourteen feet square, eight feet high, and thatched with palm branches. The door was a screen of goat or camel hair. The furniture was a mattress and pillows spread upon the floor.

    "He was often seen mending his clothes or shoes, kindling the fire, sweeping the floor, milking the family goat in his yard, or shopping for provisions in the market. He ate with his fingers and licked them thriftily after each meal. His staple foods were dates and barley bread. Milk and honey were occasional luxuries. He obeyed his own interdiction of wine.

    "Courteous to the great, affable to the humble, dignified to the presumptious, indulgent to his aides, kindly to all but his foes -- so his friends and followers describe him.

    "He visited the sick and joined any funeral procession that he met. He put on none of the pomp of the power, rejected any special mark of reverence, accepted the invitation of a slave to dinner, and asked no service of a slave that he had time and strength to do for himself.

    "Despite all the booty and revenue that came to him, he spent little upon his family, less upon himself, much in charity.">

    I am trying so hard to believe all that and am having great difficulty. The nowadays phrase that comes to my mind is a "goodie-goodie."

    As for unassuming simplicity, I suppose (with the aid of women and power) that I could affect that also.

    Robby

    Justin
    November 17, 2004 - 05:45 pm
    Mohammad must have lived apart from his harem. Not all would fit in the hovel you describe. If he spent one night with each woman in succession, he had little chance to visit his little home retreat. Slaves must have performed all those home chores for him when he was engaged in foreign travel and making the rounds of his lady friends.

    Mohammad and Jesus have some similarities. One interesting one was the inability to perform effectively in the home area. No miracles were possible in Nazareth because the folks knew him for the carpenter's boy he was. Mohammad had trouble convincing the folks at Mecca that he was God's prophet.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 17, 2004 - 06:00 pm
    Here is a link to an article about MOHAMMED'S APPEARANCE, DRESS, MODE OF LIVING, ETC.

    Robby

    Justin
    November 17, 2004 - 07:27 pm
    His dress is that of Ghandi.

    Justin
    November 17, 2004 - 07:33 pm
    I beg your pardon, Ghandi seems to have adopted Mohammad's mode of dress and life style. They are very different in approach however. Ghandi used peaceful means (non violent) to achieve his ends while Mohammad used violence to enforce his way upon others.

    Justin
    November 17, 2004 - 10:58 pm
    Perhaps Mahlia can tell us the origin and significance of the black rock in the wall of the Kaaba. It predates Mohammad, I know, but what did it mean pre Islam and how did Mohammad change it in its absorption into Islam.

    Rocks have been basic in religious formations. Mithras was placed in a rock tomb call Petra and after three days he was removed. Jesus was placed in a rock tomb and after three days he got himself up and left the scene. During Jesus' life time he called Peter a rock-a rock upon which he would build a church. We know that Peter or Petra means rock. If I look at the Persian variation I presume I will find a rock somewhere in the formation of that religion.

    Justin
    November 17, 2004 - 11:14 pm
    We here in this discussion have a rare opportunity to examine the various forms that religion takes and to observe the earliest roots of many of these popular religions. We are fortunate in that we have a teacher of comparative religions in our midst who tempers our enthusiasm with reality.

    I know that courses in Comparative Religion have been offered successfully at many unversities in the country but I don't know that any high schools have offered to teach the subject. The value of comparative religion instruction at the high school level is undenialble. It would have, I think, a mitigating effect upon bigotry and it would save so many children from the darkness of blind faith.

    There must be great opposition to such courses by entrenched interests.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 18, 2004 - 03:33 am
    "Lke all men, Mohammed was vain. He gave considerable time to his personal appearance -- perfumed his body, painted his eyes, dyed his hair, and wore a ring inscribed:-'Mohammed the Messenger of Allah.' Perhaps this was for signing documents.

    "His voice was hypnotically musical. His senses were painfully keen. He could not bear evil odors, jangling bells, or loud talk. He taught:-'Be modest in thy bearing and subdue thy voice. Lo, the harshest of all voices is that of the ass.' He was nervous and restless, subject to occasional melancholy, then suddenly talkative and gay.

    "He had a sly humor. To Abu Horairah, who visited him with consuming freuency, he suggested:-'Oh Abu Horairah! Let me alone every other day that so affection may increase.'

    "He was an unscrupulous warrior and a just judge. He could be cruel and treacherous but his acts of mercy were numberless. He stopped many barbarous superstitions such as blinding part of a hered to propitiate the evil eye, or tying a dead man's camel to his grave. His friends loved him to idolatry.

    "His followers collected his spittle, or his cut hair, or the water in which he had washed his hands, expecting from these objects magic cures for their infirmities."

    Your comments, please?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 18, 2004 - 04:31 am
    We have a long way to go yet in reading and discussing the Islamic religion. We haven't even arrived at Durant's discussion of the Koran. However, we have touched enough of it and many of us here have in addition discussed Durant's explanation of the birth and development of Christianity to the point where THIS PROVOCATIVE ARTICLE may stimulate some thought. It also touches upon Justin's remark concerning comparison of religions.

    Robby

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    November 18, 2004 - 05:56 am
    "The mass immigration of Muslims is bringing faith back into the public realm and creating a post-Enlightenment modernity for Western Europe. This return of religion threatens secular humanism, the orthodoxy that has prevailed since the French Revolution."

    This article is the first one I read openly criticizing parts of the Islamic faith. She is also pointing a finger at the West, where everything that glitters is gold for throngs filling the shopping malls at the approach of Christmas which has turned from a religious holiday to one of maga spending spree.

    Great article Robby.

    Shasta Sills
    November 18, 2004 - 08:46 am
    We are getting such conflicting reports about Mohammed that it is hard to know what to believe. The link in #730 describes a humble man who mended his own clothes and lived in a small hut. Durant describes him as a vain man who painted his eyes and wore perfume. You would think a man with all those wives could get one of them to mend his clothes and cook a decent meal for him once in a while, instead of that diet of dates and barley.

    Persian
    November 18, 2004 - 08:47 am
    Islam today has deep flaws, and I know saying so makes me a blasphemer in the eyes of countless Muslims. C'est la vie. If they move beyond emotion, they'll come to appreciate that for the rationalists among us, religion can be a godsend.

    Thanks for a great link, Robby. I just finished reading this one before I joined the discussion this morning. The above paragraph from the article presents an intelligent point, which reflects the way that ISLAM has been "held hostage" (the "deep flaws") by many Muslims - especially those who insist that violent aggression against non-Muslims is the heart of jihad (rather than the true sense of it being an internal struggle to overcome one's own weaknesses). I've read a couple of other articles by the same author. She speaks with a balanced voice about ISLAM which I applaud.

    JUSTIN - before relocating to our present home in NC, I did a lot of public speaking in the metropolitan Washington DC area - often in high schools. Earlier, I served as an officer in the Egyptian Education Bureau, so many of the invitations were for me to talk about various aspects of international issues in the Middle East. I noticed very quickly that when I spoke of religion (Judaism, Christianity and/or ISLAM) the administrators and teachers became wary. Several told me after my remarks, "we try to stay clear of commetns like those."

    I head similar remarks often enough that I finally incorporated them into my presentations to the students - usually with an introductory comment such as "when you reach university, you will be interacting with even more people from different backgrounds and you'll certainly want to have a basic understanding of their customs (including religious and traditional beliefs) so that you can talk to them ingtelligently and share your own thoughts, ideas and beliefs."

    OK, so I one-upped the administrators and faculty, but it was important for those young people in high school to understand that the world is much larger (and more complex) than what they knew in their high school environment. IT was also important to me to encourage a better openness about comparative religion, since many of my students in university were American teachers working on advanced degrees. When they joined our international seminars, it was an opportunity to open up their worlds, as well as encourage them to take their learning back into their own classrooms to share with their students.

    One of the most satisfying responses I received from a high school student who'd heard me speak was a request to assist in starting a Muslim-Christian student study group. The student who contacted me was Chrsitian; she had some Muslim friends, but her Guidance Counselor was hesitant to help them because they wanted to talk about religion. So we arranged for the students to meet at the homes of two students - one Muslim and one Christian - on alternating weeks with parental supervision. It worked beautifully and relieved the Guidance Counselor of any administrative complications.

    I've always tried to encourage my own students - and anyone else who is interested in comparative religion - to approach the topic from a non-religious standpoint. I've used the holy books of the three Abraham religions as teaching tools, just as one would with any text. Works for me!

    Here is a link to one of more than 3,000 sites on the internet about The Black Rock in the Ka'ba, which Muslims think of in terms of the time of Abraham. http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-meteorite-worship.htm

    JoanK
    November 18, 2004 - 10:00 am
    Are there any armchair mountain climbers like me in this discussion? If so, go to PBS program club for

    A MOUNTAIN CLIMBING ADVENTURE

    Persian
    November 18, 2004 - 12:02 pm
    Another PBS Special that may be of interest to members of this discussion is AFGHANISTAN UNVEILED. Check local listings for date and time.

    kiwi lady
    November 18, 2004 - 01:09 pm
    If you want to read about Afghani society before the Taliban look for a non fiction book called "Women of Herat." Its a very revealing book. Music and Dancing were a huge part of Afghani society before the Taliban. How crushing it must have been to have all that taken away. Wish I could see the PBS program. We get some of PBS on our Auckland Community TV station but of course not all the programs.

    Carolyn

    Sunknow
    November 18, 2004 - 03:08 pm
    Just as most of us agree that the books of the Bible were written my many men, some with first hand knowledge, and some with lore passed on to them, I think we must also accept the fact that the descriptions we are getting of Mohammed were accumulated in the same fashion.

    However Durant seems to be able to describe him in plain, simple terms as a poor, humble man, then alternately describing him as Shasta says "vane". One thing I still fail to understand is how he financed his many little households and wives. He was said to not accept charity, nor allow his wives/family to accept it, leaving me to search for a source of income other than what he took from others violently.

    I must confess that in reading one of the recent accounts posted here about something that Mohammed did, so shocked me that I cried out in my solitary room: "But that's not the Christian thing to do..! How could he?" Then I burst out laughing when it came to me clearly, that my biggest problem is just that: Mohammed was NOT a Christian, and was never bound by whatever we may think of as a Christian thing to do, or not do.

    Yes, I think I am ready to move now to the Koran.

    Sun

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 18, 2004 - 03:58 pm
    "Mohammed's own health and energy had borne up well through all the tasks of love and war. But at the age of fifty-nine he began to fail. A year previously, he thought, the people of Khaibar had served him poisonous meat. Since then he had been subject to strange fevers and spells. In the dead of night, Aisha reported, he would steal from the h ouse, visit a graveyard, ask forgiveness of the dead, pray aloud for them, and congratulate them on being dead.

    "Now in his sixty third year, these fevers became more exhausting. One night Aisha complained of a headache. He complained of one also, and asked playfully would she not prefer to die first, and have the advantage of being buried by the Prophet of Allah -- to which she replied, with her customary tartness, that he would doubtless, on returning from her grave, install a fresh bride in her place.

    "For fourteen days thereafter the fever came and went. Three days before his death he rose from his sickbed, walked into the mosque, saw Abu Bekr leading the prayers in his stead, and humbly sat beside him during the ceremony.

    "On June 7, 632, after a long agony, he passed away, his head on Aisha's breast.

    "If we judge greatness by influence, he was one of the giants of history.

    "He undertook to raise the spiritual and moral level of a people harassed into barbarism by heat and foodless wastes, and he succeeded more completely than any other reformer. Seldom has any man so fully realized his dream. He accomplished his purpose through religion not only because he himself was religious but because no other medium could have moved the Arabs of his time. He appealed to their imagination, their fears and hopes, and spoke in terms that they could understand.

    "When he began, Arabia was a desert flotsam of idolatrous tribes. When he died it was a nation. He restrained fanaticism and superstition but he used them.

    "Upon Judaism, Zoroastrianism, and his native creed he built a religion simple and clear and strong, and morality of ruthless courage and racial pride, which in a generation marched to a hundred victories, in a century to empire, and remains to this day a virile force through half the world."

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 18, 2004 - 04:24 pm
    While, as has been indicated, the birthrate of Muslims is on the increase, click HERE to see the European Western Civilization birthrate.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 18, 2004 - 04:30 pm
    And while Muslims around the world are communicating rapidly with each other, note what CHRISTIANS OF DIFFERENT DOCTRINES are doing.

    Robby

    Justin
    November 18, 2004 - 04:53 pm
    Ishad Manji says that religion supplies a set of values, including discipline that serve as a counterweight to the materialism if lfe in the west. She says she is not a "robotic mall rat who resorts to retail therapy in pursuit of fulfillment."

    For just a moment I thought she might tell us why a modern independent woman would bother with religion. She must be joking. If all she gets from religion is protection from some retailer in a mall, she ought to give up religion and take lessons in sales resistance. Of course the issue is deeper than she signifies by her "toss off". Materialism is one of the things Mohammad seemed to avoid. He liked woman not things.

    Persian
    November 18, 2004 - 06:21 pm
    I'm happy to see the Bishops developing a stronger communication thread with their Protestant brethren. I wonder if Muhammad were alive today, whether the Christian senior clergy would reach out to communicate with him (and he with them) and other religious Muslim leaderes (i.e. the Grand Sheik of Al-Azhar in Egypt or his Muslim brethren in Jerusalem)?

    SUN - I laughed at your mention of how you were so shocked and commented that Muhammad was NOT a Christian. Turn that statement around - "but they are NOT Muslims" - and that pretty well describes the response of many Muslims in the Middle East and Central Asia towards Westerners, especially in the countries (Iraq and Afghanistan) which currently have a strong Western military presence.

    Unless one has actually lived amongst people/communities radically different than their own, about the ONLY way to fully understand the shock of suddenly being surrounded by people so different than yourself is to try and IMAGINE yourself in that environment.

    Granted some are simply not able to do that, but for those who can imagine what it must be like, then they are closer to understanding. Can you imagine yourself as a Muslim woman, raised as a Muslim, believing in Allah, and maintaining a Muslim household for yourself and your family?

    I have a Jewish academic friend, originally from Tyler, Texas, with whom I exchange comparative religious questions occasionally. Once I asked what would residents of Tyler think/do if they were suddenly inundated by 150,000 uniformed, heavily armed and aggressive Muslims. She just rolled her eyes! That old saying comes to mind: "walk a mile in my shoes/sandals/boots" (chose one to fit the season and the region).

    JUSTIN - if you had a choice, would you rather spend time with a beautiful and congenial woman or a Sony Walkman, computer, electronic gameboy, or watching sports on TV?

    Fifi le Beau
    November 18, 2004 - 06:54 pm
    In one of the links given in a previous post, I came upon the following while looking for 'a rational' response to questions about Islam and how it was founded.

    Narrated 'Abis bin Rabia: 'Umar came near the Black Stone and kissed it and said "No doubt, I know that you are a stone and can neither benefit anyone nor harm anyone. Had I not seen Allah's Apostle kissing you I would not have kissed you." (Sahih al-Bukhari 2:667, 675, 676, 679, 680)

    I thought I had found a rational man, but alas with further reading he turned out to be dutifully following along behind Mohammad whose followers seemed to worship him with the reverence of a god.

    I thought the passage from Durant of muslims collecting Mohammeds spit, hair clippings, and wash water to be enlightening. It shows that man follows man much more religiously than they follow whatever god has been put before them.

    In the search for that 'rational' man, I don't expect to find him in a study of religion. Like Umar in the above quote, he proves that by kissing the stone only because Mohammed did, that makes him as irrational as the man who believes it will give him seventy virgins dancing on the head of a pin.

    Fifi

    winsum
    November 18, 2004 - 07:15 pm
    JUSTIN - if you had a choice, would you rather spend time with a beautiful and congenial woman or a Sony Walkman, computer, electronic gameboy, or watching sports on TV?

    most of the men I know would rather watvch sports. a beautiful woman might get a nod and a glance but the red socks would win. is this you? I sorta doubt it. . . .claire

    Fifi le Beau
    November 18, 2004 - 08:47 pm
    I found this quote from Durant to be enlightening after reading (Koran) what Mohammed did before he died to all his wives.

    Aisha complained of a headache. He complained of one also, and asked playfully would she not prefer to die first, and have the advantage of being buried by the Prophet of Allah -- to which she replied, with her customary tartness, that he would doubtless, on returning from her grave, install a fresh bride in her place.

    You can usually depend on a teenager to talk back. Aisha was still a teenager close to eighteen when Mohammed died. She says in her own testimony that she was nine when he took her and she lived with him nine years.

    It is evident from this conversation that Mohammed wanted Aisha to be willing to die before him. She refused, so he did the next best thing he could do so that she would never have another husband. He had another of those convenient revelations.

    "The prophet is closer to the believers than themselves, and his wives are their mothers." (Koran 33:6) With this decree from (Allah), his wives were designated the mothers of all believers. Because of the incest taboo, no Muslim would think of marrying his mother.

    This meant that none of Mohammed's wives would be free to marry. Aisha never married again even thought she became an eighteen year old widow when Mohammed died and lived for fifty more years.

    Even from the grave, Mohammed controlled them.

    Fifi

    Justin
    November 18, 2004 - 10:21 pm
    Mahlia: I'll take the woman every time but I think you are ducking the issue. The object of Islam to this person is to help her avoid the evils of materialism. I am sure she is fully enjoying the proceeds of her book by acquiring all the little things that make life comfortable. More than that is the issue of whether materialism is a worthy adversary for Islam and Mohammad.

    Sunknow
    November 18, 2004 - 10:34 pm
    "If we judge greatness by influence, he was one of the giants of history."

    Robby - Yes, that quotation, and the summary of this one man's influence following it (post #744) are remarkable. I'm glad I kept reading. I certainly understand more now, than I did when I started.

    Mahalia - You may be right in your judgment of people that have not traveled as much as you have, or traveled very little. However, I must tell you, I am not one of them. I have lived in both Europe, and the Far East, and in numerous locations here in the U.S., and have also traveled to more than a few other countries. My desire was aways to walk on their land, in their part of the world, among the people and try to understand their way of life. I'm honest enough to admit that at times I was successful and other times I failed . Incidentally, I suspect we have many well traveled posters here.

    Fifi - Yes, we can assume that Aisha had gained much wisdom from Mohammed, and was clever enough to guess his intentions when she declined to precede him in death. She was wise for her years, and it amused me.

    Sun

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 19, 2004 - 03:45 am
    Durant continues. Please note the change in the GREEN quotes in the Heading.

    "The word qur'an means a reading or discourse and is applied by Moslems to the whole, or to any section of their sacred scriptures.

    "Like the Jewish- Christian Bible, the Koran is an accumulation and orthodoxy claims it to be in every syllable inspired by God. Unlike the Bible, it is proximately the work of one man and is therefore without question the most influential book ever produced by a single hand.

    "At various times in the last twenty-three years of his life Mohammed dictated some fragment of this revelation. Each was written upon parchment, leather, palm-leaves, or bones, was read to an assembly, and was deposited in various receptacles with preceding revelations, with no special care to keep them in logical or chronological order.

    "No collection of these fragments was made in the Prophet's lifetime but several Moslems knew them all by heart and served as living texts. In the year 633, when many of these qurra had died and were not being replaced, the Caliph Abu Bekr ordered Mohammed's chief amanuensis, Zaid ibn Thabit, to 'search out the Koran and bring it together.'

    "He gathered the fragments, says tradition, 'from date leaves and tablets of white stone, and the breasts of men.' From Zaid's completed manusrcript several copies were made. As these had no vowels, public readers interpreted some words variously and diverse texts appeared in different cities of the spreading Moslem realm.

    "To stop this confusion the Caliph Othman commissioned Zaid and three Quraish scholars to revise Zaid's manuscript (651). Copies of this official revision were sent to Damascus, Kufa, and Basra. Since then the text has been preserved with unparalleled purity and reverential care."

    And here we have it. The collection of remarks made by one man, the words pulled from the memories of various men, and their distribution throughout the Arabia of that time.

    Note Durant's word "proximately." He did not say "approximately."

    Robby

    winsum
    November 19, 2004 - 10:32 am
    that's interesting.. . denotes the beginnings of written speach as we know it and yet is so open to interpretion without vowels.



    ltstr t meaning

    "let's try it".

    ds tht mck n sns ?

    "does that make any sense ?" interesting to me since I keep making typos of that sort.

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 19, 2004 - 11:38 am
    Hebrew has no vowels.

    Mal

    Bubble
    November 19, 2004 - 12:10 pm
    Newspapers, books (except those for your kids) are all printed without vowels. The striking exception is the Bible. Not only has it all the vowels printed but also the inflexions.

    Persian
    November 19, 2004 - 01:18 pm
    SUN - Indeed, I well remember from earlier discussions that you are well traveled and, like myself, have lived in many regions of the world. Lucky us! And without doubt, the SN community is also well traveled - a quick glance in the Travel discussion clarifies that! And like you, I have been successful in some of my ventures, but not always - sometimes embarassingly so.

    JUSTIN - my Persian sense of humor seems to have gotten the best of me in my query to you about a beautiful woman vs electronics. Mea culpa!

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 19, 2004 - 04:15 pm
    "The nature of the book doomed it to repetition and disorder. Each passage taken separately fulfills an intelligible purpose -- states a doctrine -- dictates a prayer -- announces a law -- denounces an enemy -- directs a procedure -- tells a story -- calls to arms -- proclaims a victory -- formulates a treaty -- appeals for funds -- regulates ritual, morals, industry, trade or finance.

    "But we are not sure that Mohammed wanted all these fragments gathered into one book. Many of them were arguments to the man or the moment. They can hardly be understood without the commentary of history and tradition. None but the Faithful need expect to enjoy them all.

    "The 114 chapters ('suras') are arranged not in the order of their composition, which is unknown, but in the order of their decreasing length. Since the earlier revelations were generally shorter than the later ones, the Koran is history in reverse. The Medina suras, prosaic and practical, appear first. The Mecca suras, poetic and spiritual, appear last.

    "The Koran puts its worst foot forward and should be begun at the end."

    Extremely interesting! I'll have to try doing that. I wonder if the Muslims do that.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 19, 2004 - 04:22 pm
    This is the OPENING CHAPTER of the Koran.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 19, 2004 - 04:25 pm
    This is the 114TH AND LAST CHAPTER of the Koran where Durant says we should begin.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 19, 2004 - 04:34 pm
    Here are the MEDINA SURAS. Click on to the numbers scattered through the text to read some interesting footnotes.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 19, 2004 - 04:46 pm
    Just so everyone here gets into the proper Eastern way of thinking, click HERE to see the first chapter of the Koran in Arabic.

    Robby

    Fifi le Beau
    November 19, 2004 - 07:48 pm
    The first listing in the green quotes is Form. Durant has been writing about the form the Koran took, and he mentions the use of the Jewish and Christian Bible stories, but does not go into detail about how they were used in the Koran.

    The following link may give some context to that question.

    Pentateuch and Koran

    Fifi

    JoanK
    November 19, 2004 - 07:53 pm
    BUBBLE: yes, the Bible now has vowels. But the vowels were added centuries after the Bible was first written by scribes in order to prevent confusion. The early copies had no vowels.

    Justin
    November 19, 2004 - 07:53 pm
    Guard your private parts. Feed my company from behind a screen. Divorce by likening a wife to a mother. Let the Prophet have another man's wife. Why not? David did it. If one's wife looks at another man, flog her. If one's wife wants colorful raiment threaten her with divorce. She'll come around. If one wants to keep one's widow from sleeping with other men when you are gone, ask her to die before you. Suicide is ok for women. If that doesn't work follow the Koran and liken her to the mothers of all believers.

    Save us from these believers who find this worthwhile advice.

    winsum
    November 19, 2004 - 09:52 pm
    If I'm an arab of that time I just want to believe in a higher power as in "don't bother me with the facts". the trouble is, I see it in so many of our own citizens who are not arabs today. . . as in "I'm busy praying and believing and good things must there fore come about". . . .it's hard for a rational person not to judge. . . . claire

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 20, 2004 - 04:48 am
    Fifi:-That was an excellent link you gave us. Thank you. I was especially interested in the names of all those persons in the Bible who are also found in the Koran.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 20, 2004 - 04:55 am
    "All the suras except the first take the form of discourses by Allah or Gabriel to Mohammed, his followers, or his enemies. This was the plan adopted by the Hebrew prophets and in many passages of the Pentateuch.

    "Mohammed felt that no moral code would win obedience adequate to the order and vigor of a society unless men believed the code to have come from God. The method lent itself well to a style of impassioned grandeur and eloquence, at times rivaling Isaiah.

    Mohammed used a mode of utterance half poetry, half prose. Rhythm and rhyme are pervasive in it, but irregular. In the early Meccan suras there is a sonorous cadence and bold sweep of style that are completely felt only by those familiar with the language and sympathetic with the creed. The book is in the purest Arabic, rich in vivid similes, and too florid for the Occidental taste.

    "By general consent it is the best, as well as the first, work in the prose literature of Arabia."

    Any comments here about language?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 20, 2004 - 05:03 am
    Here is an article about HYPNOTIC LANGUAGE and how it leads a person into a trance.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 20, 2004 - 06:05 am
    That's a good article, ROBBY. There's so much in it that I saved it, so I can go back to it again.

    I wrote a too long post about writers in the Snows of Kilimanjoro discussion earlier. I'm a writer and know what happens when I write. I go into such a focused, trancelike state that what seems like minutes is really hours. The words I'm writing hypnotize me. This state is not exclusive to me.

    A hypnotic state can happen when reading a book or watching a movie or a play or listening to a lecture or a sermon. Or playing or listening to music, as was mentioned in this piece.

    Good salespeople know about hypnotic language. There can be the hard-sell, evangelistic bombast about a product, which whips the listener up until he says, "Okay, I'll buy it. Just shut up; I can't take it any more."

    I knew a man who owned a mobile home busienss in Florida. The day I met him I was looking for a house for a friend up north. This man talked softly on and on and on and on. It wore me down so much that I felt compelled to say, "Give me the contract. I'll sign."

    There is a hypnotic effect when listening to or performing chants. Saying verses from the Bible over and over has a hypnotic effect. So, I would presume, does reciting the sura of the Qur'an.

    Mal

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 20, 2004 - 06:39 am
    I know nothing about the Arabic language but my guess is that in its beauty there are many examples of alliteration. An example I always remember is Poe in "The Raven" -- "and the silken sad uncertain rustling of the purple curtains."

    The Bible (and I assume the Koran) has numerous cases of various figures of speech such as metaphors and similes. Jesus often used metaphors.

    Robby

    BaBi
    November 20, 2004 - 07:53 am
    I don't know about going into a trance, but I have heard voices that lulled me to sleep. And the "hard sell" technique immediately loses me as a customer. I do understand about the beauty of language and voice quieting the spirit, and I can agree that one would likely be more receptive in that state. Doesn't music do the same thing? This beauty of language is what makes certain books, and passages in books, memorable and beloved.

    Has anyone considered the effect of the sound of tramping feet in a march cadence, and martial music? I couldn't tell you why, but it definitely has the desired effect of stirring people to patriotic devotion.

    ..Babi

    moxiect
    November 20, 2004 - 09:49 am


    Everyone Please click on the link below!

    http://www.jacquielawson.com/viewcard.asp?code=XA11567420

    Persian
    November 20, 2004 - 10:02 am
    When I think of the way hypnotic language affects people (and it surely does!), I immediately think of the Sufi Muslims and their undertaking of dance, poetry and music as a way of experiencing their belief and drawing closer to God.

    To the orthodox segments of Islam, Sufis are heretics and unacceptable. But within the Sufi traditional culture there is a wonderful mystical quality that has always intrigued me. I've hosted many gatherings in my home and always was impressed with the serious commitment and beautiful outreaching towards a better understanding of God as displayed by the Sufis whom I've met. Here's a link with some interesting information about this segment of Islam. http://www.sfusd.k12.ca.us/schwww/sch618/Music/Dance2.html

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 20, 2004 - 10:24 am
    As some of you know, I am a Certified Clinical Hypnotherapist and some of my patients tell me that I have the kind of voice which easily lulls them off. (I assume that is a compliment) Some of us SNetters will be spending a few days in a Beach House near Charleston, SC, so I will have to promise not to talk too much!!

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 20, 2004 - 10:27 am
    CREED

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 20, 2004 - 10:38 am
    "A religion is, among other things, a mode of moral government. The historian does not ask if a theology is true -- through what omniscience might he judge?

    "Rather he inquires what social and psychological factors combined to produce the religion -- how well it accomplished the purpose of turning beasts into men -- savages into citizens and empty hearts into hopeful courage and minds at peace -- how much freedom it still left to the mental development of mankind.

    "What was its influence in history?"

    It has often been mentioned here that this is a historical discussion group, not a religious one. Now Durant helps us to see where we differ from the topics covered in the religious ones. We concentrate on social and psychological factors -- among others -- and how they combined to help mankind (in the words of Voltaire in the Heading above) "pass from barbarism to civilization." Is anyone here beginning to see in what way one man, Mohammed, had any influence on history?

    Robby

    Persian
    November 20, 2004 - 11:22 am
    ROBBY - you may be a Sufi and not even know it! The following link illustrates the power of sound (voice).

    http://www.rosanna.com/sufiwritings/glossary/zikar.htm

    Shasta Sills
    November 20, 2004 - 01:58 pm
    Moxie, thanks for the pumpkin pie!

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 20, 2004 - 03:03 pm
    Story of Civilization has certainly changed me. I have just finished watching "Godfather II" on TV and I couldn't help throughout the entire movie thinking of the Roman Empire.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 20, 2004 - 03:34 pm
    Isn't it funny how that happens, ROBBY? I felt the same way recently when I watched Mel Gibson's "Passion".

    Mal

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    November 20, 2004 - 05:14 pm
    This was posted in the Iliad discussion today by my daughter.

    "monasqc - 11:24am Nov 20, 2004 PST (#435 of 436) As the wall comes crumbling down.

    I am suprised to find how much the heart of men is the same in times of war, today and 4000 BC. According to the last N.Y.Times magazine, during the year 2002, Americans prayed to God for peace and the end of war 71% of the time. Albeit the time or the place on earth, it seems men have always being aware of the divine presence and praying to that force unequal to them.

    Françoise"


    I have nothing to add to that.

    Éloïse

    Sunknow
    November 20, 2004 - 06:04 pm
    Yes, I agree - what I have learned here will stay with me and tints everything I read about the Muslims, such as another article about the death of Van Gogh in the Netherlands that was in today's paper. I didn't need to read yet another account, but I did. The entire story sounds like it came from the pages of S. of C. Not just the descriptions of the killing, but the actual words in the letter left behind pinned to the body with a sword. The words in that letter/warning/threat could have been written in Mohammed's time.

    Sun

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 20, 2004 - 06:33 pm
    Those participants here who were with us in our first volume, "Our Oriental Heritage," will enjoy this article about the SILK ROAD.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 20, 2004 - 06:44 pm
    Durant continues:-

    "Judaism, Christianity, and Islam assumed that the first necessity for a healthy society is belief in the moral government of the universe -- belief that even in the heyday of evil some beneficent intelligence, however unintelligibly, guides the cosmic drama to a just and noble end.

    "The three religions that helped to form the medieval mind agreed that this cosmic intelligence is one supreme God. Christianity added, however, that the one God appears in three distinct persons. Judaism and Islam considered this a disguised polytheism and proclaimed with passionate emphasis the unity and singleness of God.

    "The Koran devotes a whole sura (cxii) to this theme. The Moslem muezzin chants it daily from a hundred thousand minarets.

    "Allah is, first of all, the source of life and growth and all the blessings of the earth. Says Mohammed's Allah to Mohammed:-

    'Thou seest the earth barren. But when We send down water thereon, it doth thrill and swell and put forth every lovely kind (xxii,5). Let man consider his food -- how We pour water in showers, then split the earth in clefts, and cause the grain to grow therein, and grapes and green fodder, and olive and palm trees, and garden closes of thick foliage (lxxxx,24-30). Look upon the fruit thereof, and upon its ripening. Lo, herein, verily, are portents for a people who believe (vi, 100).'

    Your comments, please?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 20, 2004 - 06:54 pm
    Regarding the MUEZZIN, here is something to consider.

    Robby

    winsum
    November 20, 2004 - 06:57 pm
    influences? But it seems that we are still consorting with the heavens and the god figures.

    Given that humans feel small and fragile as inhabitants of the infinite. We huddle together (social), depend upon each other for more than the physical help (security and protection from others as well as animals and nature) we come to love one another in the process.Love is a practical requirement for our co-existance .

    Ethocentracism and competition conplicate the mix (govt.) and rules are made to provide structure and security. They differ in the various cultures and territory becomes important. certain rules apply in certain places. . . which accounts for differences in government and language and philosphy in these places. To study all would be a huge task so we study the ones that DON'T work. . .historically they cost us more than the ones that do. Now does that cover it?

    Justin
    November 20, 2004 - 07:40 pm
    Some months back a German scholar( name withheld for security reasons) said the Arabic language as a form of speaking did not develop till 150 years after Mohammad's death. This scholar says the early Qu'ran was written in Aramaic. Durant says the Qu'ran was written in Arabic about 650, ten to fifteen years after Mohammad's death.

    Fifi's listing discussing the various error repetitions is worthwhile.

    Are there any linguists in the group who might know about the history of the Arabic language?

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 20, 2004 - 09:02 pm
    Arabic language, history

    Traude S
    November 20, 2004 - 09:56 pm
    At long last I HAVE caught up with more than 150 posts! NOW if I only could have answered each one as I read ...

    A few thoughts :

    MAL, who is the source of the link you posted in # 790? Who exactly are "Our professional language experts ..." ?

    It is annoying to me that so often referenced links do NOT include the precise SOURCE by name, nor the DATE. How reliable ARE those sources, really? Why do they differ in important details ?

    Regarding your # 715, Mohammed did NOT claim to have taken "dictation from Allah"; his "revelations" came from the Archangel Gabriel.

    ROBBY, Durant is an eloquent historian, florid, lyrical, albeit sometimes seemingly meandering, and not always proceeding in chronological order. We saw here earlier that he referred to Mohammed's death before we even got to the man's birth!

    We know that Ariel was his right hand and no doubt his principal researcher; but she was coauthor only of the last few volumes, I recall. Durant's achievement is monumental. It is the basis for this discussion.

    But I wonder if there is a bibliography in these volumes indicating HIS sources ? I don't mean to be heretical, but must we accept without question what he said - to he exclusion of anything anyone else has written before or since ?

    The insights and input provided here are an intellectual stimulation par excellence and very much needed. MAHLIA's contributions are invaluable, and I applaud her especially for her ability to "calm the waters". Opinions set forth vigorously can be discouraging.

    I concur with # 759 " ... hardly be understood without the commentary of history or tradition ..."

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 20, 2004 - 10:17 pm
    You're scaring me off, TRAUDE. I hope you appreciate that. That's two strikes against me in 24 hours. One more and I'm out.
    As far as Durant is concerned, look at your Story of Civilization books. There are pages and pages at the end of each book showing the Durants' sources.

    Justin
    November 21, 2004 - 12:31 am
    Traude: Nice to see you in here. Your knowledge of language will keep us well informed. I noted a German scholar (name withheld) who says Classical spoken Arabic did not appear till 150 years after Mohhammad's death. He says further, that the original Qu'ran language was Aramaic. Are you familar with the reference and do you think the case can be made?

    We are all aware of the relationship between the Angel Gabriel and Mohammad. Clearly, it is central but Mohammad had a secretarial kind of person who noted what he said and many years later collected the memories of many who heard Mohammad as well as notes on odd things and his own memories to write the collected verses of the Qu'ran. There was lots of editing and revising as well as competitive documents before a Caliphate blessed one edition.

    The Durants left a sizable Bibliograph and notes.

    Justin
    November 21, 2004 - 12:42 am
    Mal: We fixed the three strikes law in California. Every strike must now be a violent penalty. No longer can prosecutors put a guy away for life for stealing a loaf of bread. In like manner, I reject your two strikes and give you a pass for a couple of additional penalties. Your 790 was very helpful. But I think we are dealing here with something very recent and something the German scholar is quite certain of or he would not risk the exposure of Salmon Rushdie if his identity is disclosed.

    Bubble
    November 21, 2004 - 03:28 am
    about Post #786 : Maybe God appears not in but as three distinct persons: the God of Judaism, the God of Christianity , the God of Islam. Same God in three guses and each adapted in faith according to the needs or light of the believer.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 21, 2004 - 05:33 am
    Great that you have finished reading all the posts, Traude! We are looking forward to your active participation. You are so right about the need for accuracy and for the past three years we have been trying to the best of our ability to be on the mark. Regarding sources, etc. as both Mal and Justin have told you, Durant's volumes contain pages and pages of source notes. Regarding links, everyone here knows that I am eternally (how's that for an appropos word here?) reminding ourselves of the need to examine the source of each link and to believe it or not as they see fit. From what I read of ALS International in Mal's link, they appear to be an extremely reputable organization in its knowledge about language.

    Bubble, as usual you give us in just a few words deep thoughts to ponder. This last post of yours was an excellent example. Hope you are feeling much much better!

    It has been said often in the news this past decade or so that English is becoming the "universal" language. But as we noted in that link about the Arabic language, there is a large section of the world where for many people English is not even being considered. And we keep asking ourselves how to best communicate with them.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 21, 2004 - 05:58 am
    Here is another Arabic language history link. I saw it last night; found it difficult to read, so posted the ALS link instead. I try to be very careful about the articles I link here and elsewhere, as some of you know.

    Arabic language history

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 21, 2004 - 06:02 am
    "Allah is also a God of power:-

    'Who raised up the heavens without visible support and ordereth the course of the sun and moon and spread out the earth and placed therein firm hills and flowing streams' (xiii,2-3).

    "Or, in the famous 'Throne Verse':-

    'Allah! There is no God save Him, the living, the eternal! Neither slumber nor sleep overtaketh Him. Unto Him belongeth whatsoever is in the earth. Who is he that intercedeth with Him save by His leave? He knoweth that which is in front of them and that which is behind them. His throne includeth the heavens and the earth and He is never weary of preserving them. He is the Sublime, the Tremendous (ii,255).'

    "But along with His power and justice goes everlasting mercy. Every chapter of the Koran except the ninth, like every orthodox Moslem book, begins with the solemn prelude (called hismillah from its first words):-'In the name of God the Compassionate, the Merciful' -- and although Mohammed stresses the terrors of hell, he never tires of praising the infinite mercy of his God."

    Is it not natural (and I speak here of all religions) to constantly praise the deity of which one is afraid? "Discretion is the better part of valor?"

    In Orwell's story "1984," didn't Winston Smith, in the end, cry out his love for Big Brother?

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 21, 2004 - 06:44 am
    What Durant quotes from the Koran reminds me of the Christian Bible. Post #786 has a verse:
    "Let man consider his food -- how We pour water in showers, then split the earth in clefts, and cause the grain to grow therein, and grapes and green fodder, and olive and palm trees, and garden closes of thick foliage (lxxxx,24-30). Look upon the fruit thereof, and upon its ripening. Lo, herein, verily, are portents for a people who believe (vi, 100).'
    It reminded me of this from the New Testament:
    "Luke 12:27-31. 'Consider the lilies how they grow... seek not ye what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink, neither be ye of doubtful mind... your Father knoweth that ye have need of these things... all these things shall be added unto you.' "
    The Throne Verse also reminds me of the Bible, but I haven't been able to pull the verses up from my memory yet. Mohammed was illiterate, I believe, but he certainly had an acquaintance with the Holy Books of Judaism and Christianity.

    I don't remember being taught to fear God, though I suppose I was in ways, not always in church. The church I attended in my youth and the many in which I sang over a period of decades certainly "lifted up their hearts" in praise.

    Mal

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 21, 2004 - 06:57 am
    This ARTICLE in this morning's NY Times gives one theory as to why the U.S. appears to be more "religious" than other Western nations.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 21, 2004 - 07:06 am
    This is a little off topic, but last night I found sections of the Koran which talk about women and sex. There are all the thou shalts and thou shalt nots, including the statement that a woman is unclean when she's menstruating and shouldn't be touched. Long ago in the Oriental Heritage discussion I mentioned that a big part of the stigma on women was caused because people were ignorant of the fact that menstruation is part of reproduction. How much more did Mohammed and the Arabs know about that than earlier civilizations did, I wonder?

    It offended me to see these laws in the Koran, and I am outraged today because an anti-abortion clause was slipped into the spending bill that was passed by the U.S. House of Representatives and the Senate yesterday. What women do and the choices they have are legislated now just as they were 1500 years ago and longer than that?

    ( JUSTIN, I'm a Red Sox fan. When I talk about strikes I'm standing at home plate waiting for the pitcher to throw the ball. )

    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 21, 2004 - 07:13 am
    About the article ROBBY linked in Post #800:
    "48 percent (of Americans) believed that the United States has a special protection from God."
    How come? Because "God is on our side?" Which God? The American one?

    Mal

    Shasta Sills
    November 21, 2004 - 08:58 am
    Eloise, I didn't know Monasqc is your daughter. She and I are fighting the Trojan War together.

    Shasta Sills
    November 21, 2004 - 09:05 am
    I love that passage from the Koran about the rain falling on the fruit trees and making them grow. My grandmother used to quote a passage from the Bible to the effect that "the rain falleth on the just and the unjust alike." She said it meant that misfortune can come to believers as well as unbelievers. But I've always interpreted it to mean that my garden will get the rain it needs as well as my saintly neighbor's garden. I find that very comforting, unbeliever that I am.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 21, 2004 - 09:23 am
    Interesting that participants here are finding numerous similarities between what is said in the Bible and what is said in the Koran.

    Robby

    winsum
    November 21, 2004 - 10:23 am
    I'm terrified that the legislature can pass an antiabortion law. it takes us back to the horrible times of botched ones, not so distant in the past as to be kept there, and no longer applicable.

    In the Koran there are many such laws that we could not live with today.

    this current legal precident makes me realize that we aren't accepting emotionally the atmosphere that existed then, not really experiencing it as it dealt with peoples' lives. Life was so cheap then. . . . and continues to be in the present Arab community, which is was scares me. It's that hereafter part of the religious fable that's to blame. . . . claire

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 21, 2004 - 10:31 am
    Any other comments here regarding the Koran?

    Robby

    Traude S
    November 21, 2004 - 11:05 am
    MAL, I admit to being candid, but since surviving the convulsions of the past, I have always been a seeker of harmony, never been impolite, contributed what I think I know but nothing more. How could that possibly be scaring anyone?

    Please note, I do NOT HAVE Durant's books. That was the reason for my asking about the bibliography in the respective volumes. Now I know the answer. Thank you.

    JUSTIN, I regret not to be able to answer the question as to when Classical Arabic emerged: during Mohammed's lifetime or after. The focus of my dissertation was on historical rather than linguistic or religious aspects.

    I wrote it in Italian and the theme should explain my focus: Le relazioni politiche e culturali tra il mondo romano-italiano e quello arabo-islamico nel medioevo = The Political and Cultural Relationship between the Roman-Italian and the Aramic-Islamic World in the Middle Ages. As is customary, the original was deposited in the Library of the University of Heidelberg.

    Obviously, therefore, the person of Mohammed the man, his habits, his personal traits, or his wives were not paramount to my theme, and never considered.

    Yet isn't it absolutely astonishing, indeed miraculous, that and how this personal, simple new "faith" conceived by an illiterate man centuries ago deep in the Arabian desert became a world religion?

    I hope Durant will show just how this came about under the reign of the Caliphs after Mohammed's death: the actual physical expansion, the conversion by force. THAT I believe is the crux of the matter, more so than comparisons with Judaism or Christianity. It is something we desperately need to know right here, right now.

    May I be permitted to briefly mention a book in which the marriage age of girls in modern Iran has been mentioned.

    It is Reading Lolita in Tehran : A Memoir in Books (2003) by Azar Nafisi. Without further elaboration I'd like to quote a few passages from pg. 261:
    "At the start of the twentieth century, the age of marriage in Iran - nine, according to sharia laws - was changed to thirteen and then later to eighteen. ... When I was growing up in the 1960s, there was little difference between my rights and the rights of women in Western democracies. ...

    I married, on he even of the revolution, a man I loved. ... By the time my daughter was born five years later, the laws had regressed to what they had been before my grandmother's time: the first law to be repealed, months before the ratification of a new constitution, was the family-protection law, which guaranteed women's rights at home and at work. The age of marriage was LOWERED TO NINE - eight and a half lunar years, we were told; adultery and prostitution were to be punished by stoning to death; and women, under law, were considered to have half the worth of men. Sharia law replaced the existing ssem of jurisprudence and became the norm. " (emphasis mine)

    ROBBY, going back to correct my typos, I saw your question in the preceding message. Has the makeup of the Koran been outlined, the number of suras, etc.? Thank you.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 21, 2004 - 11:30 am
    "Isn't it absolutely astonishing, indeed miraculous, that and how this personal, simple new "faith" conceived by an illiterate man centuries ago deep in the Arabian desert became a world religion?"

    In response to this wonderment by Traude, I would guess that its success lay not only with the personality and charisma of Mohammed but with the Eastern personality as well. One can send messages but there must be those who are ready and able to receive.

    I still have not learned enough about the Eastern character to understand this.

    Robby

    Traude S
    November 21, 2004 - 12:03 pm
    Yes, ROBBY, and that reminds me of earlier references here about the "Mediterranean" temperament and apparent "coldness" of some Europeans.

    Can we assume that the climate has an influence on the "naturel" of the people there?

    Think of the Swedes and the Fins near the Arctic Circle where summer is short and winter seems interminable; is there also a connection with their alcoholism? Are those in warmer climes more passionate?

    And yes, I think there IS a connection. When I studied in Italy, the foreign students were greeted with enthusiasm and anticipation; the saying among the male university students was "A German is easier to have than a glass sof water". That infuriated me and I determined right then that I would NOT conform to the sterotype. And by golly, I did not.

    BaBi
    November 21, 2004 - 12:34 pm
    Rather he (the historian) inquires what social and psychological factors combined to produce the religion -- how well it accomplished the purpose of turning beasts into men -- savages into citizens and empty hearts into hopeful courage and minds at peace -- how much freedom it still left to the mental development of mankind.

    I have not comment to make. I just found this passage from Durant so excellent I wanted to repeat it.

    Babi

    kiwi lady
    November 21, 2004 - 01:37 pm
    Traude - Germans are very well received here. Reported in our local newspaper - Some back packers from Germany joined in a local festival recently and they said that nowhere in the world have they been received so warmly as in NZ. I felt quite proud of that. Since 9/11 I have made a point of smiling at Muslim women I meet in the supermarket aisles and my smile is always well received. We are pretty tolerant here in general to other religions.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 21, 2004 - 05:13 pm
    "Allah is an omniscient deity and knows our most secret thoughts.

    'Verily We created man and We know what his soul whispereth to him, for We are nearer to him than the vein in his neck'(1,15).

    "Since Allah knows the future as well as the present and the past, all things are predestined. Everything has been decreed and fixed from all eternity by the divine will, even to the final fate of every soul. Like Augustine's God, Allah not only knows from eternity who will be saved, but 'sendeth whom He will astray, and guideth whom He will' (xxxv,8; lxxvi,31).

    "As Yahveh hardened Pharaoh's heart, so Allah says of unbelievers:-'We have thrown veils over their hearts lest they should understand the Koran, and into their ears a heaviness. And if thou bid them to the guidance, yet even then they will never be guided' (xviii,58).

    "This -- doubtless intended as a spur to belief -- is a hard saying in any religion, but Mohammed thrusts it down with more than Augustinian thoroughness. Says Allah:-'Had We pleased. We had certainly given to every soul its guidance. But true shall be the word that has gone forth from Me -- I will surely fill hell with jinn (demons) and men together' (xxxii, 13).

    "Once says a tradition ascribed to Ali, 'we were sitting with the Prophet, and he wrote with a stick in the ground, saying:-'There is not one among you whose sitting place is not written by God whether in fire or in paradise.'

    "This belief in predestination made fatalism a prominent feature in Moslem thought. It was used by Mohammed and other leaders to encourage bravery in battle, since no danger could hasten, nor any caution defer, the predestined hour of each man's death.

    "It gave the Moslem a dignified resignation against the hardships and necessities of life. But it conspired with other factors to produce, in later centuries, a pessimistic inertia in Arab life and thought."

    If I get this correctly, even if I wish to understand Islam, it may be Allah's wish that I not understand, so it is a waste of time for me to try.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 21, 2004 - 05:22 pm
    The difference between FATE AND PREDESTINATION as seen by Muslims.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 21, 2004 - 05:26 pm
    I wonder. Why would God harden Pharaoh's heart and why would Allah throw a veil over certain people's hearts causing them to be unbelievers? Why would a deity not want some people to believe in His existence.

    Robby

    Fifi le Beau
    November 21, 2004 - 06:29 pm
    In Durants discussion of Mohammed and the passages in the Koran dealing with predestination and Allah saying he will lead those he choses and off to hell with the rest, reminds me of a personal story.

    I once had an argument with a classmate in grade school about predestination. He argued that our lives are predetermined and nothing we can do will change our fate. I suggested he test his theory by going up and jumping out of an airplane without a parachute. If his theory was valid, he had nothing to worry about.

    He told the teacher, who made me write 100 times a sentence which now escapes me. By the time I finished, I was ready to put his fate in my hands. I made up a horrible story and told him that tomorrow it would happen to him. He didn't come to school the next day and was reported to be sick.

    As a ten year old, I felt a little guilty, but quickly learned a lesson on the power of suggestion.

    Fifi

    Justin
    November 21, 2004 - 07:03 pm
    Allah's power and the freedom of a believer are bound in a "mystery." Allah predetermines and man does as he wishes so long as it does not conflict with what Allah as determined. What the heck? It's a "mystery." That's what faith is all about. Remember our discussion about the Trinity. One shrugs the shoulders, rolls the eyes, and walks away.

    Persian
    November 21, 2004 - 07:13 pm
    ROBBY - may I ofer a slight correction to your #813, fourth paragraph? In it, the Sura is correct (xviii), but the verse (listed as 58) is actually from the previous verse (57) and is incomplete. By reading only the latter part, an important segment of the verse and its full meaning is missed. Here is the compelte verse 57:

    "And who doth more wrong Than one who is reminded Of the Signs of his Lord But turns away from them, Forgetting the deeds which his hands Have sent forth? Verily, We have set veils over their hearts So that they understand this not, And over their ears, deafness. If thou callest them To guidance, even then Will they never accept guidance."

    Footnote 2401 accompanies verse 57, which also helps to clarify what happens first: man's decision to turn away from Allah.

    "Considering the power of sin, and how it gets hold of the hearts of men, and considering all the wrongs that men have done, it is the height of folly and injustice on their part to turn away from warnings which are given expressly for their good. But a stage of callousness is reached, when, BY THEIR OWN CHOICE (my emphasis), they have rendered themselves impervious to Allah's Grace. At that stage, a veil is put over their hearts AND THEY ARE LEFT ALONE FOR A TIME, that they may commune with themselves and perhaps repent and seek Allah's Mercy again. If they do not, it is their own loss." (

    Verse 58 continues the same theme of Allah's Mercy and forgiveness - even to those who have turned away initially, but eventually repent.

    "But Your Lord is Most Forgiving. Full of Mercy. If He were To call them at once to account For what they have earned, Then surely he would Have hastened the Punishment. But they have their appointed Time, beyond which they Will find no refuge."

    So you needn't give up, Robby, in trying to understand Islam. It just takes perseverance - sometimes a lifetime! And as the Jews and Christians learned previously, indeed Allah is fearsome at times, but He is also Merciful.

    Justin
    November 21, 2004 - 07:25 pm
    Chief Seattle said, "White men look for paradise in the sky while abusing their only home! Mother Earth.

    An Islamic variation might well be, Muslims look for a paradise in the sky with seventy virgins while a wife may share the place only if her husband allows her to come. She must be a good wife to get his permission.

    Lane Poole reports in his book on the Table Talks of Mohammad, and quoted in Durant, "Mohammad thinks that most women will go to hell."

    Fifi le Beau
    November 21, 2004 - 07:46 pm
    Robby asks.....

    Why would a deity not want some people to believe in His existence.

    This may have been Mohammed's way of explaining to his followers why they had so much resistance from their own people. Mohammed had to flee in the middle of the night from his own clan.

    His trip to Medina produced another disappointment at not being accepted by the Jews as their Messiah. He used his knowledge of their oral history of their own religion, but he made mistakes in the story, and they rejected him. He did however use their religion in his own stories as the many names and events from the Old Testament in the Koran attest. He also used the New Testament stories in his preaching.

    Like Christianity was built on Judaism, so was Islam. Actually all three religions were started in a relatively small area of the middle east by people closely related. I see it as a tribal or gang fight among kinfolk.

    They all claim to be the chosen ones, and Yahweh, God, or Allah only favors them, and no one else need apply. What egomania! with sexual perversion thrown in for good measure, and a hairy back to boot.

    Deliver me!

    Fifi

    Justin
    November 21, 2004 - 07:54 pm
    Durant reports a story about Aisha, the Prophet's little nine year old, who brought about a change in the law of adultery. One hundred stripes for the adulterer. Aisha was suspected of adultery. The Prophet had a trance and issued a revelation requiring four witnesses to prove adultery. Those who accuse without four witnesses will receive eighty stripes. Accusations of adultery were rare after that.

    Justin
    November 21, 2004 - 08:01 pm
    The Prophet seems to have one view of wives and another of mothers. Wives may be a calamity but mothers... well, " Paradise is at the foot of the Mother".

    moxiect
    November 21, 2004 - 08:08 pm
    And it's still man's interpretation of Judaism, Christianity, Islam. Since there can be only ONE divinity for ALL, why then can't there be toleration.

    kiwi lady
    November 21, 2004 - 09:37 pm
    Many of the quotations mentioned here are almost identical in meaning to key passages in the bible. I find that very interesting.

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 21, 2004 - 09:52 pm
    Giving the Law a Religious Perspective. NY Times, Nov. 22

    Justin
    November 21, 2004 - 11:49 pm
    Moxie: You are referring to Bubble's neo Trinity idea, I think. The answer is not quite so simple as that. Muslim, Christian and Hebrew may all pray to one God and we may trace that idea to Abraham. We are not talking about the same God. The Muslim sees God in one way, the Christian in another way, and the Hebrew in a third. I agree, these Gods are similar because they came out of the one tradition but they have been changed so much by the generations they are no longer the Same God. Even today, the idea of God is constantly changing. Is the God of the Fundementalist the same as the God of the traditionalist, or of the progressive? In addition, there are miscellaneous groups who also have an idea of God or no God.

    Persian
    November 22, 2004 - 12:39 am
    On the other hand, Justin, I wonder if we might look at the "changes" to which you refer as being among the people - NOT that God has changed. To Muslims, the ancient God of Abraham is the same God to which they pray today.

    In the Christian community, might we say that the believers (and their expressions of their faith) among the progressives, traditionalists and fundamentalists are the ones who are changing, NOT that God has changed. Nor that Arab Christians (whether Egyptian Coptics or Iraqi Chaldeans) pray to a different God than their fellow Christians in the West.

    And among the Jews, might we look at a group like Jews for Jesus as a new branch of Judaism, which has chosen not to follow the more traditional aspects of that religion, but which prays to the same God, in much the same way that those in the Reform communities do not follow the traditions of the Lubavitch, yet certainly pray to the same God.

    kiwi lady
    November 22, 2004 - 12:50 am
    I believe we all pray to the one God the same God we first learn about in Genesis.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 22, 2004 - 04:39 am
    As usual, many excellent exchanges. Durant continues:-

    "The Koran fills out its supernatural world with angels, jinn, and a devil. The angels serve as Allah's secretaries and messengers and record the good and wicked deeds of men. The jinn are genii, made out of fire. Unlike the angels, they eat, drink, copulate, and die. Some are good and listen to the Koran (lxxii,. Most are bad and spend their time getting human beings into mischief.

    "The leader of the evil jinn is Iblis who was once a great angel but was condemned for refusing to pay homage to Adam.

    "The ethic of the Koran, like that of the New Testament, rests on the fear of punishment, and the hope of reward beyond the grave. 'The life of the world is only play, and idle talk, and pageantry' (lvii,20). Only one thing is certain in it, and that is death.

    "Some Arabs thought that death ends all and laughed at theories of an afterlife as 'naught but fables of the men of old' (xxiii,83). The Koran vouches for the resurrection of body and soul (lxxv,3-4).

    "Resurrection will not come at once. The dead will sleep until Judgment Day but because of their sleep, their awaking will seem to them immediate. Only Allah knows when this general resurrection will take place.

    "Certain signs will herald its coming. In those last days faith in religion will have decayed. Morals will be loosened into chaos. There will be tumults and seditions, and great wars, and wise men will wish themselves dead. The final signal will be three trumpet blasts. At the first blast the sun will go out, the stars will fall, the heavens will melt, all buildings and mountains will be leveled with the earth and its plains, and the seas will dry up or burst into flame (xx,102f).

    "At the second blast all living creatures -- angels or jinn or men -- will be annihilated except for a few favored of God.

    "Forty years later Israfel, the angel of music, will blow the third blast. Then dead bodies will rise from the grave and rejoin their souls. God will come in the clouds, attended by angels bearing the books of all men's deeds, words, and thoughts.

    "The good works will be weighed in a scale against the bad and each man will so be judged. The inspired prophets will denounce those who rejected their message and will intercede for those who believed. The good and bad alike will move out upon the bridge al-Sirat, which -- finer than a hair and sharper than the edge of a sword -- is suspended over the chasms of hell. The wicked and unbelievers will fall from it. The good will pass over it safely into paradise -- not through their own merits, but only through the mercy of God.

    "The Koran, like the Fundamentalist forms of Christianity, seems more concerned with right belief than with good conduct. A hundred times it thratens with hell those who reject Mohammed's appeal (iii,10,63,131; iv,56,115; vii,41; viii, 50; ix,63, etc.) Sins being diverse in degree and kind, there are seven levels in hell, each with punishments and adjusted to the offense. There will be burning heat and biting cold. Even the most lightly punished will wear shoes of fire. The drink of the damned will be boiling water and filth (lvi,40f).

    "Perhaps Dante saw some of his visions in the Koran."

    As we read these passages, let us keep in mind that some here (lurkers or participants) may be Muslim. A reminder, therefore, that in this forum we do not proselytize our own belief nor speak against the beliefs of others. We are a historical discussion group.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 22, 2004 - 04:44 am
    Further information about IBLIS.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 22, 2004 - 04:49 am
    Further information about ISRAFEL.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 22, 2004 - 04:57 am
    Here is a further explanation of AL-SIRAT, the bridge stretched over Hell.

    Robby

    Bubble
    November 22, 2004 - 06:52 am
    There are many angels in the Koran: Gabriel who gave the Koran to Mohamet, Michael who has no defined functions, Malik the guardian of hell. Angels have many fonctions, some hold the throne of Allah, some glorify him, others serve as his messengers.

    In Islam, the revelation of God is not limited to the Koran which is God's word at its purest. It is also in messages elsewhere. The Koran names specifically the pages of Abraham which did not survive, the pages of Moses which are the Torah or five first books of the Bible, David's psalms and the Testaments. Those who believe in these writings are called People of the Book, "Ahl el Kitab". One of the consequences for this is that a Moslem is allowed to marry a Jewish or a Christian woman and let her follow her religion.

    A Moslem cannot wed a non-believer nor can a Moslema wed a non Moslem. The Koran affirms the truth of the Books revealed before it, but according to Islam those books have been altered. This explain the successive prophets "nabi" like Adam, Enosh the father of Mathusalem, Abraham, Jacob, David, Moses, Jesus, John the Baptist and Mohamet. The Koran says that all nations had a prophet but that there would be none after Mohamet. Jesus is called Issa in Arabic and Mary is Mariam.

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    November 22, 2004 - 07:31 am
    Thank you Bubble for this clear and concise post, it makes understanding that part of Islam easier for those of us who don't know anything about it.

    Persian
    November 22, 2004 - 07:45 am
    SHALOM, BUBBLE - I am so glad to see how much better you feel! Your post (above) is much appreciated and, as Eloise mentions, goes a long way to assist those unfamilair with Islam. Best wishes for continued good health.

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 22, 2004 - 08:27 am
    "The Quran is characterized by a unique phenomenon never found in any human authored book. Every element of the Quran is mathematically composed - the suras, the verses, the words, the number of certain letters, the number of words from the same root, the number and variety of divine names, the unique spelling of certain words, the absence or deliberate alteration of certain letters within certain words, and many other elements of the Quran besides its content. There are two major facets of the Quran's mathematical system: (1) The mathematical literary composition, and (2) The mathematical structure involving the numbers of suras and verses. Because of this comprehensive mathematical coding, the slightest distortion of the Quran's text or physical arrangement is immediately exposed."
    To see more about this, go to Quran mathematics

    You might find it interesting to go to the index of Submission.org, "Your best source of Submission (or Islam, submission to God) on the internet"

    Jihad and Terrorism (index to several pages)

    Radical Islam, or Radical Muslims

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 22, 2004 - 08:47 am
    Scroll down for Quranic Study Classes

    Fifi le Beau
    November 22, 2004 - 10:04 am
    In Mals link on Quran Mathematics, the author has used mathematics to attempt to prove his point. Perhaps he had read or seen the same television show that I happened upon one day while scanning the TV.

    The show was a documentary on some Jewish scholar who had used mathemetics to unlock the mysteries of the Bible. It was long ago but I think it was based on the number seven.

    Numerology has been around ever since man found out he had five toes. Both these attempts to prove a mysterious use of numbers in the work of man, is as old as man himself.

    Instead of numbers, some religiologist have played songs backward to get their hidden meaning. One fellow did the entire bible backward, and came up with some interesting new proofs of its infallibility, at least that's what he said.

    Does anyone in this group believe in numerology?

    Fifi

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 22, 2004 - 10:14 am
    Not I, FIFI.

    Mal

    Fifi le Beau
    November 22, 2004 - 11:28 am
    Before we began Durants latest book I thought of all the civilizations we had read about in the other books and all the gods we had met. I began to compile a list, and when I saw that Robby had already listed all the gods we had read about, it was a relief because his list was already completed and mine had only begun.

    In our current book we would meet the Arab gods. We had already met some of them in former books, but this book was to be about the Arab gods exclusively.

    Here is Robby's list and we discussed them openly, and I hope the newest addition can be done in the same way.

    Throughout that progress toward civilization what we now call "religion" was ever-present. We felt the supernatural influence of sky gods, the sun god, plant gods, animal gods, sex gods, Osiris, Isis, Horus, Marduk, Ishtar, Tammuz, Polytheism, Henotheism, Yahveh, Zarathustra, Mithra, Naga, Hanuman, Nandi, Varuna, Prithivi, Parjanya, Agni, Vayu, Rudra, Indra, Ushas, Sita, Vishnu, Krishna, and Buddha. Add on to that the worship of ancestors, yin and yang, T'ien, the philosophy of Confucius, Shang-Ti, the doctrine of Lao-tze, and the Taoist faith.

    Then came Zeus, Athena, Demeter, Hera, Artemis, Poseidon, Dionysus, Hermes, Priapus, Aphrodite, and countless others who competed with but finally lost to the less supernatural advancement of the philosophies of Xenophanes, Parmenides, Plato, Zeno, Philolaus, Leucippus, Democritus, Empedocles, Pericles, Protagoras, Socrates and Aristotle.

    The Roman Empire, however, shunned the philosophies of Greece and re-introducing us to gods, gave us Jupiter, Vesta, the Lar, the Penates, Janus, Juno, Cuba, Abeona, Fabulina, Tellus, Mars, Pomona, Faunus, Pales, Sterculus, Saturn, Ceres, Fornax, Vulcan, Minerva, Venus, Diana, Hercules, Pluto, Mercury, and Neptune.

    Fifi

    HubertPaul
    November 22, 2004 - 11:51 am
    Concepts of the Great Mystery, ever changing as mankind progresses.

    Justin
    November 22, 2004 - 02:08 pm
    Mahlia: If one forgets that God is a human invention and assigns life independent of man to God then clearly, God stays the same and man changes his definition of God from time to time. But if one recognizes that God exists only in the mind of man then as man changes his definition of God, God's appearance changes. God is then one thing to this group and quite another to other groups. The God of Abraham was capable of killing Isaac, though he relented. The God of the Jews was capable of retribution for recalcitrants and capable of ordering the death of the Canaanites and others in murderous wars. The God of the Catholics was one who endorsed torture for heretics. The God of the Muslims encourages one group to suicide in the destruction of his chosen people. These are not the same God as the one Dr. Schuler talks about when he says "God Loves you and so do I."

    Shasta Sills
    November 22, 2004 - 03:08 pm
    Well, it's pretty clear to me where I'm going to be spending eternity. In Hell with the jinns. But I didn't need Mohammed to tell me this. My grandmother always assured me that's where I'd end up. And after she died, my mother kept up this refrain on a daily basis. All I can say is I hope the jinns know how to play Scrabble because it looks like we'll be spending a lot of time together.

    Fifi le Beau
    November 22, 2004 - 03:48 pm
    Durant writes........

    "The Koran fills out its supernatural world with angels, jinn, and a devil. The angels serve as Allah's secretaries and messengers and record the good and wicked deeds of men. The jinn are genii, made out of fire. Unlike the angels, they eat, drink, copulate, and die. Some are good and listen to the Koran (lxxii,. Most are bad and spend their time getting human beings into mischief.

    "The leader of the evil jinn is Iblis who was once a great angel but was condemned for refusing to pay homage to Adam.


    I've heard this story before. Remember Enoch who wrote about the angel who became the devil and his followers who sat around in heaven eyeing the young girls on earth. They came and copulated with the girls, eating, drinking, and having a jolly good time.

    Well, they're back in the Koran as demons (jinn) and the devil is now called Iblis. It's the same myth that had been floating around in the middle east for some time, along with many others.

    The Heavens for Mohammed was populated with angels, demons (jinn), a devil, secretaries, messengers, and of course God.

    I have a question, how did this great angel who became the devil get into heaven in the first place?

    How did the jinn (demons) get into the heavens? Durant says that in the Koran some were good, but most were bad boys with all that copulating, eating, and drinking.

    Only questions, no answers.

    Fifi

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 22, 2004 - 06:46 pm
    Good grief, Fifi!! Did I compile that list? No wonder I'm so tired.

    Let's continue with Durant.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 22, 2004 - 07:13 pm
    "Unlike Dante's, Mohammed's picture of heaven is as vivid as his description of hell. Good believers will go there and those who die for Allah's cause in war. The poor will enter 500 years before the rich.

    "Paradise is in or above the seventh astronomic heaven. It is one vast garden, watered with pleasant rivers and shaded with spreading trees. The blessed there will be dressed in silk brocades and be adorned with gems. They will recline on couches, be served by handsome youths, and eat fruit from trees bowing down to fill their hands. There will be rivers of milk, honey, and wine. The saved will drink wine (forbidden on earth) from silver goblets, and will suffer no aftereffects.

    "By the mercy of Allah there will be no speeches at these heavenly banquets (lxxviii,35). Instead there will be virgins 'never yet touched by man or jinn, in beauty like the jacinth and coral stone with swelling bosoms but modest gaze, with eyes as fair and pure as sheltered eggs, and bodies made of musk, and free from the imperfections and indignities of mortal flesh.

    "Each blessed male will have seventy-two of these houris for his reward and neither age nor weariness nor death shall mar the loveliness of these maidens, or their comrades' bliss (xliv,56).

    "Since pious and believing women will also enter paradise, some confusion might result, but such difficulties would not be insuperable to men accustomed to polygamy. To these sensual pleasures Mohammed added certain spiritual delights. Some of the saved will prefer to recite the Koran. All of them will experience the supreme ecstasy of beholding Allah's face. 'And round about them shall go children, never growing old.'

    "Who could reject such a revelation?"

    I can see where someone creating a heaven would paint a scenario where all those people living in an arid desert would now have rivers, spreading trees, and lots of fruit. Heaven is the place where we receive what we want now but don't usually have. I must also assume, therefore, based on Mohammed's promises, that these nomadic Arabs lived in a sexual environment which was also arid -- completely devoid of bodies of musk and swelling bosoms -- or if existent, were at least "off limits" to the average nomad.

    Furthermore I assume, being the mathematician that I am, that as fast as these sexually hungry men arrived in Paradise these hoardes of untouched virgins (get that phrase "never yet touched") immediately became touched, thereby requiring a new influx of the untouched.

    Those Arabs who had never on earth known the effects of wine would now never be able to feel that "buzz." And I sort of wonder how the "poor" after having 500 years of equal poverty, will receive the entrance of the nouveau riche. And will the modest gaze of these virgins turn upward toward those who remembered how to live the good life?

    Just thoughts, folks. Maybe I'm being too superficial. Have I missed something?

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 22, 2004 - 08:49 pm
    Heaven certainly must sound heavenly to those poor people who never had such luxuries on earth.

    Mal

    3kings
    November 22, 2004 - 09:00 pm
    Bubble, an excerpt from your post #833. :- "One of the consequences for this is that a Moslem is allowed to marry a Jewish or a Christian woman and let her follow her religion.

    A Moslem cannot wed a non-believer nor can a Moslema wed a non Moslem."

    Which is it ? Can a Moslem marry a non Moslem, or not ?

    Robby, it would seem from your #846 that the Moslem idea of heaven is as strangely contradictory as the Christian. I suspect that one should not expect logic in an outburst of religious fervour. ++ Trevor

    Sunknow
    November 22, 2004 - 09:23 pm
    "Since pious and believing women will also enter paradise, some confusion might result....."

    Yes, add my confusion to it. Even if this heaven is "one vast garden", everything else sounds very much like it is a continuation of what has already been provided to the rich, upper crust MALE. Not much offered for the women, just more of the same.

    Sun

    Fifi le Beau
    November 22, 2004 - 09:40 pm
    Mohammed's description of heaven was most Arab males dream. Plenty of water, wine, and women. Since Mohammed disliked loud noise he allowed no speeches.

    Mecca is very hot, especially in spring and summer. The sunshine makes the heat almost unbearable. There are no trees or greenery because of heat, lack of water, and poor soil.

    Since no fruit was grown in Mecca, all would have to be imported by camel and dates are easier to preserve so there would have been dates. He mentions only two fruits by name in his paradise, dates and promegranates. The many other varieties of fruits were unknown to Mohammed. His knowledge was limited to the few trees available in his neighborhood and so is his paradise.

    Mohammed's description was what he thought paradise should be. The only role women played was as a sex object for men, so paradise didn't change anything for them.

    I saw an interview on television that has stuck with me for some years. A young middle eastern man had put on a suicide belt and gone out to blow himself up. His belt did not detonate when he pulled the pin and he was captured. His interview was conducted from a prison, where he had been held for some time.

    The interviewer asked him why he had decided to take such a drastic step, and he didn't answer. He asked if the promise of paradise and 70 virgins influenced his decision. The young man answered, "There were handsome young men there too". Complete silence.

    He looked so vulnerable and soft spoken that it touched me and made me realize there are no easy answers and every man defines his own idea of paradise.

    Fifi

    kiwi lady
    November 22, 2004 - 11:55 pm
    Trevor a Christian woman can keep her own religion and marry a Muslim. A Muslim woman cannot marry a Christian man. I forget the reasoning now. Mahlia explained it to me once as my SIL- to- be is Muslim. I have to say he is a wonderful man and very respectful and caring towards me. He is not a fundamentalist however and neither is his family who have made my daughter very welcome. She will not change her religion and thats fine with them. I must say I was terribly worried until I met Cenk but the whole family likes him very much and he has been the nicest man my daughter has ever dated. The children will be exposed to both religions and allowed to choose.

    Carolyn

    winsum
    November 23, 2004 - 12:24 am
    going through the motions, try believeing in their mode only meditating in mine. but I think I'd forgo the five times a day prostrations. this old bod couldn't do it. I wonder whether they continue when they are old and arthritic or otherwise disabled. Is there accomodation for physical disability within the rituals.

    Claire

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 23, 2004 - 03:58 am
    Ethics

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 23, 2004 - 04:17 am
    "In the Koran, as in the Talmud, law and morals are one. The secular is included in the religious and every commandment is of God. Here are rules not only for manners and hygiene, marriage and divorce, and the treatment of children, slaves, and animals, but also for commerce and politics, interest and debts, contracts and wills, industry and finance, crime and punishment, war and peace.

    "Mohammed did not disdain commerce -- he was its graduate. Even in his sovereign Medina days, says a tradition, he bought wholesale, sold retail, and made profit withut qualm. Sometimes he acted as auctioneer. His language was rich in commercial metaphors. He promised worldly success to good Moslems (ii,5) and offered heaven as a bargain for a little belief.

    "He threatened hell to lying or cheating merchants, denounced monopolists, and speculators who 'keep back grain to sell at a high rate' and bade the employer 'give the laborer his wage before his perspiration dries.' He prohibited the taking or giving of interest (ii,275; iii,130).

    "No reformer ever more actively taxed the rich to help the poor. Every will was expectged to leave something to the poor. If a man died intestate his natural heirs were directed to give a part of their inheritance to charity (iv,.

    "Like his religious contemporaries he accepted slavery as a law of nature but did what he could to mitigate its burdens and its sting."

    The conclusion I am coming to is that in the Western civilization there are many laws and many individual benefits or penalties attached to them, eg gaining by making a profit, owning a house, becoming married, or losing by paying a fine or being jailed. In Islam, as I understand it, there is just one law and you either gain by going to Paradise or lose by going to Hell.

    Am I on the right track here?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 23, 2004 - 05:23 am
    This link tells about the Koran's attitude toward EARNING AND PAYING INTEREST.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 23, 2004 - 05:29 am
    For those of us who don't think that the Koran is applicable to practical everyday life, this LINK says otherwise.

    Robby

    Bubble
    November 23, 2004 - 05:40 am
    Theron, as you must have noticed, laws are a bit different in Islam when it concerns a man or a woman. Yes, A moslem male has the possibility to wed a jewess or a christian woman, since they are People of the Book. It is not so for a Moslema (female) who probably would become corrupted if approached by a non-Moslem. This is MY interpretation.

    Some more thoughts:
    Islam unites believers in India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Indonesia mainly; with a few exceptions in Africa it is mainly present in the Northern hemisphere. Islam gives all those different people the feeling they belong to a community, the Umma, which unites all the believers no matter they cultural differences. The formalities to belong to Islam are simple: the new adept needs to be purified by a cleaning, a shower for example. then he will say in all sincerity the faith formula, the shahada. This translates as "There is no other God than Allah and Mohamet is his prophet"

    To be a good Moslem one must observes the rules of the Koran, ie prayers, fast alms and pilrinage. It is not necessary to go to the mosque, a prayer carpet can serve as mosque.

    Bubble
    November 23, 2004 - 05:58 am
    Islam made a list of the 99 nicest names of God (al asma-al husna) which are the attributes of the godly power, such as Ghaffar the Indulgent, Rafi the One who raise, Wasi the Omnipresent, Sabar the most Patient. The Moslem rosary counts 99 beads so that the faithful can recite by heart the 99 names.

    A man who knows the whole Kotan by heart is called Hafiz, litteraly "the Keeper". This was also the name of a famous Persian poet.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 23, 2004 - 06:13 am
    Thank you so much, Bubble! Very helpful.

    Robby

    Bubble
    November 23, 2004 - 06:36 am
    Mea Culpa: I mixed 2 names... In post #857 I meant to answer Trevor and wrote Theron, probably because I went by mistake to post 1 instead of last... Sorry for the confusion. Bubble

    Shasta Sills
    November 23, 2004 - 08:11 am
    I think it's an understatement when Durant says there might be some confusion if a wife arrives in Heaven and finds her husband cavorting with 72 virgins. If the wife happens to be an American, I guarantee you there would be some confusion. In fact, all Hell would break loose. (Do you hear me, John? There better not be any cavorting going on up there.)

    Are we really learning to understand and appreciate Islam? I liked it better when I knew nothing about it.

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 23, 2004 - 08:12 am
    BUBBLE, that's all so interesting, thank you.

    99 beads? The Catholic Rosary has this many beads:
    "A full Rosary consists of one hundred and fifty Hail Marys, fifteen Our Fathers, and three or four beads corresponding to introductory versicles and the 'Glory be to the Father', etc. Such a 'pair of beads' is generally worn by religious. Lay people commonly have beads representing a third part of the Rosary. The Brigittine beads number seven paters in honour of the sorrows and joys of the Blessed Virgin, and sixty-three aves to commemorate the years of her life. Another Crown of Our Lady, in use among the Franciscans, has seventy-two aves, based on another tradition of the Blessed Virgin's age. The devotion of the Crown of Our Lord consists of thirty-three paters in honour of the years of Our Lord on earth and five aves in honour of His sacred wounds." Source: Use of Beads at Prayers. New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia


    Did you hear that the cheese sandwich a woman had in her freezer for 10 years was sold at auction by eBay for $28.000.00 because the face of the Virgin Mary is supposedly on it? It's not easy for me to understand these things.



    Durant's quote today has answered a question I've had in my mind about the Law in Arabia when Mohammed was the head of that nation. As an American living in a democratic republic, it's hard to imagine a nation living by the laws in a Holy Book.

    The American Heritage Dictionary I have in this computer says the archaic meaning of the word, "usury", was "interest charged or paid on a loan." How does one know what the accurate meaning of the Arabic word for usury was at the time of Mohammed? Is the "Submission" site, from which I posted links to articles yesterday, and from which ROBBY posted today, biased toward convincing non-Muslims that Islam is a reasonable, rational religion? The articles I've read on that site lead me to think this.

    Mal

    Bubble
    November 23, 2004 - 08:30 am
    Mal, this might interest you:

    http://www.rosary-center.org/howto.htm

    Fifi le Beau
    November 23, 2004 - 10:34 am
    Here is the history of the use of beads for many reasons including religion. The article states that India is where the use originated.

    String of beads

    Fifi

    Scrawler
    November 23, 2004 - 10:50 am
    In post #857, sea bubble states: "Islam unites believers in India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Indonesia mainly; with a few exceptions in Africa it is mainly preent in the Northern hemisphere. Islam gives all those different beople the feeling they belong to a community, the Umma, which unites all the believers no matter their cultural differences."

    "Islam gives them the feeling [that] they belong to a community..." Could this be the reason why anyone joins a religious group; because it "unites" them with others?

    Bubble
    November 23, 2004 - 10:53 am
    Worry Beads

    http://saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/196806/worry.beads.htm

    Scrawler, Man is a social animal who does not like to live in isolation.

    Persian
    November 23, 2004 - 10:59 am
    MAL - when Muslims are unsure about a professional or personal issue - as in the issue of usury - they repeatedly turn to the Qur'an for clarification. In Surah 2 - Al-Baqarah (The Heifer) - verses 274-278, there are clear admonitions against usury. Footnote 324 states clearly that "usury is condemned and prohibited in the strongest possible terms."

    Although Muhammad died before the minute details of avoidance of usury were clarified, throughout the following fourteen centuries "Islamic scholars (both ancient and modern)have worked out a great body of literature on usury, based mainly on economic conditions as they existed at the rise of Islam." (footnote 324)

    Footnote 326 addresses the differences some Muslims try to make between "usury" and "interest" and further states (in relation to legitimate trade or industry) that "according to Islamic teachings any excess on the capital is riba (interest). Islam accepts no distinction in so far as prohibition is concerned, between reasonable and exorbitant rates of interest and what came to be regarded as the difference between usury and interest . . . ." In contemporary times, some Muslims (seeking a higher profit from business endeavors) have tried charging "administrative fees" or "service fees" for services, rather than interest. This was prevalent for a time in Islamic banking circles. Some have been successful - especially in dealing with non-Muslim entities in the constructions trades (who expect to pay fees or outright bribes to win large contracts) - but the practice of charging interest (under ANY name) is definitely frowned upon by mainstream Muslims.

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 23, 2004 - 11:01 am
    I think that's part of it, SCRAWLER. People seem to have to be near like-minded people in a group. Gaining strength in numbers? I don't know. They also are attracted to religions, I think, because they give them answers to serious questions like "Why am I here?" and "Where did I come from, and where am I going?"

    BUBBLE, I have some worry beads someone left to me when he died. I'll have to count them and see how many there are.

    Mal

    Persian
    November 23, 2004 - 11:09 am
    CAROLYN - re your comment in an earlier post about WHY Muslim women are discouraged from marrying non-Muslim men. The reason is based on the religioous instruction of the futrue children. Since the children usually take the religion of their father, supposedly Islam would be lost if the father was a non-Muslim. I think - as you already know - that Cenk is certainly a keeper! Think what wonderful educational opportunities the future children will have to be exposed to two great world religions at early ages and then the freedom to make their own choices.

    BUBBLE - its really great to have you back in the discussion. Your comemnts have added enormously to the better understanding of Islamic traditions. Many thanks!

    ROBBY - how are you doing in your efforts to slip into an Eastern mindset in order to understand Islam better?

    Bubble
    November 23, 2004 - 12:10 pm
    Comparing between different religions, I asked myself about the clergy in Islam. In Mohamed’s lifetime, he was the one who received the Koran and thus the only one to interpret it. His successor was the Caliph. The fourth caliph was his son in law Ali and by then quarrels had started about interpretations.

    In Islam there is no religious hierarchy: all are equal in the eyes of Allah and no one has special powers. Obviously religious tasks can only be fulfilled by competent and knowledgeable Moslems.

    According to their tasks, one can recognize

    - the Kadi who applies the Moslem law or Shari’ a;

    - the Mufti which is higher than the Kadi and can interpret the law and give edicts , the fetwas;

    - the Great Mufti who has regional responsibilities, such as the Great Mufti of Paris, Alger, Jerusalem etc.;

    - the Alem (pl. Ulema) who is a professor of law and dogma attached to a mosque;

    - the Imam (= the one who is in front) who leads prayers in the mosque;

    - the Khatib or preacher/teacher. Often this is the same person as the Imam;

    - the Muezzin who calls the Moslems to prayers from the top of the minaret and nowadays with the help of a good sound system;

    - the Mueqqit who fixes the hours for the prayers.

    There also are honorary titles such as "Sheikh” which literally means old one; Hajji is the title given to someone who completed the pilgrimage to Mecca; Sherif is the name given to the descendents of the prophets through their father.

    Everyone has heard the honorific title of Ayatollah which means "sign of God" and is one of the highest appellations.

    3kings
    November 23, 2004 - 04:59 pm
    BUBBLE & CAROLYN thank you for clearing up my misunderstanding. Part of my trouble was not knowing that MOSLEMA was a woman, I thought it was just a typo for Moslem ... Silly me.

    Further I note PERSIA, uses the spelling MUSLIM. Could it be that one spelling is American, and the other English ? Just wondering,+++ Trevor

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 23, 2004 - 06:05 pm
    "Mohammed improved the position of woman in Arabia while accepting her legal subjection with equanimity. We find in him the usual quips of the male resenting his enslavement to desire. Almost like a Father of the Church he speaks of women as man's supreme calamity, and suspects that most of them will go to hell.

    "He made his own Salic law against women rulers. He allowed women to come to the mosque, but believed that 'their homes are better for them.' Yet when they came to his services he treated them kindly,even if they brought suckling babes. If, says an amiable tradition, he heard a child cry, he would shorten his sermon lest the mother be inconvenienced.

    "He put an end to the Arab practice of infanticide (xvii,31). He placed woman on the same footing with man in legal processses and in financial independence. She might follow any legitimate profession, keep her earnings, inherit property, and dispose of her belongings at will (iv.4,32).

    "He abolished the Arab custom of transmitting women as property from father to son. Women were to inherit half as much as the male heirs and were not to be disposed of against their will.

    "A verse in the Koran (xxxiii,33) seemed to establish purdah:-'Stay in your houses and do not display your finery' but the emphasis here was on modesty of dress. A tradition quotes the Prophet as saying to women:-'It is permitted you to go out for your needs.' With regard to his own wives he asked his followers to speak to them only from behind a curtain.

    "Subject to these restrictions, we find Moslem women moving about freely and unveiled in the Islam of his time, and a century thereafter."

    Women's lib?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 23, 2004 - 06:35 pm
    Is it so that in a nation where the state sponsors a religion that the churches are mostly empty and that where church is separate from state that the churches are full? If this is so, does this apply in ISLAMIC NATIONS?

    Robby

    kiwi lady
    November 23, 2004 - 06:47 pm
    Actually one would be very surprised to realise how much power a woman has in a non fundamentalist Muslim family! They certainly have a lot of influence in the household much to my surprise.

    Carolyn

    Persian
    November 23, 2004 - 06:56 pm
    ROBBY - in your quote of Durant's comments - "Women were to inherit half as much as the male heirs . . . ." I think it is important to understand WHY women were to inherit only half as much as men. The reason is NOT because women are deemed to be less valuable, but that in most Muslim families, the male must provide for ALL members of the family. Thus his financial responsibilities are broader than a woman's.

    TREVOR - the spellings I use for Muhammad, Muslim and Qur'an are from the Qur'an. May I mention that the female form of the honorifics Sheikh and Hajji (as mentioned in Bubble's earlier post) end in an "a."

    CAROLYN - you've raised an excellent point about the authority of women inside the family. It is not well known, sometimes hard to grasp and often disputed by non-Muslims. My guess is that since Muslim women usually prefer NOT to publicly "grandstand" their levels of authority, responsibility for family decisions, etc., this aspect of Muslim women is just simply not well known. The Qur'an teaches that women are to be modest not only in their mode of dress, but also in their behavior, communication styles, etc. Thus, they generally don't tend to be publicly vocal. In this respect, I speak from experience (my own and knowing many Muslim women of various educational and socio-economic levels).

    The exceptions, of course, are Muslim women who have a designated public role or married to men who have such a role (i.e. Jehan Sadaat, when her husband was President of Egypt; Suzanne Mubarak, whose husband is the current Pres. of Egypt; Queen Noor, widow of the late King Hussein of Jordan; Queen Rania, whose husband King Abdullah inherited the Jordanian throne from his father; former Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto; and Ambassador Rend Rahim Francke, appointed last year as Iraqi Ambassdor to Washington. Although Ambassador Francke was born in Baghdad, she has not lived in Iraq for more than 30 years and obtained American citizenship in 1987.

    Justin
    November 23, 2004 - 07:11 pm
    My impression is that men attend Mosque when they choose and it is convenient to do so. The Muslim carries with him a prayer rug which is much like a portable Mosque. The Christian in contrast may carry rosary beads or a bible but neither are a substitute for church service which is compulsory on Sunday. The faithful accept a penalty of mortal sin when Mass is missed. There are so many Protestant variations that it is difficult to generalize.

    That given, what is the result in attendance when religion and the state are one? I confess I do not know. I do know that church attendance is declining and that Catholic dioceses are closing parish churches in the US and in Europe. Initiates to the priesthood are also declining. Africa, on the other hand, is experiencing growth in church attendance. Evangelicals in the US appear to be growing but I do not know the rate of growth nor do I know the reasons.

    Persian
    November 23, 2004 - 07:29 pm
    I seem to recall an earlier inquiry in this discussion regarding whether accommodations are made in Islam for individuals who cannot attend mosque services due to their physical limitations. IF that has not already been answered, may I respond.

    Indeed, Islam encourages adherents to attend mosque services regularly. Men are generally more accustomed to doing so than women, except perhaps in the West or in non-traditional families. Individuals (male or female) who are incapacitated are still able to offer their prayers. If they cannot move from a sitting or prone position, Allah still hears their prayers. If they cannot voice their prayers or engage in the ritual ablutions and traditional prayer positions, which include standing, bending, turning the head from shoulder to shoulder, and bending forward to place the forehead on the edge of the prayer rug, no matter. Allah still hears their prayers. If the individul's body is paralyzed, they can pray with their eyes. Allah still receives their prayers. Just because someone is ill, elderly or unable to move about easily does not mean that Allah does not receive their prayers. And if someone is mute, but otherwise mobile, they can pray in mosque, at home or anywhere by simply "thinking" the prayers. Allah welcomes their efforts.

    Justin
    November 23, 2004 - 07:36 pm
    A Muslima inherits half what a muslim male inherits and to westerners that has all the ear marks of a lower valuation for women. However, if the male must provide for all members of his family and the woman is not so required, then, perhaps there is some justification for the rule. It is nice to see that Muslim men accept this responsibility. So often men make laws and customs that penalize women and then fail to accept responsibility for their care.

    Women in the US in the first half of the last century, were generally thought to be provided for by a male and as a consequence their salaries, when they were gainfully employed, were often half that of males, and their advancement in employment was limited. Some of that discrimination continues today.

    3kings
    November 23, 2004 - 09:46 pm
    JUSTIN, you were wondering about Church attendance when the State and Church are mutually antagonistic, vis-a-vis when they sre more tolerant of one another.

    I do know that in Poland, when the country was run by the Communists, attendance at Mass was considered not only a duty, but a pleasure, by the general populace. It was common to see the faithful, unable to get into the overcrowded Churches, on their knees in the street as they followed the Mass with the aid of loudspeakers. I've seen this, even when rain was flooding down the gutters.

    Today, with the Communists no longer in power, attendance at Mass has markedly fallen away. In earlier years, the people were, I suppose, registering their opposition to Communism by Church adherence.

    Strangely, in the last election in Poland, the Communists were largely returned to power by the electorate, but there has not been a growth in church going.

    One factor in all this, is in the days of Communist total control, the top jobs were always given to the members of the party. You couldn't advance in your profession, what ever it was, unless you carried a party ticket.

    Today this is no longer the case, and job advancement is open to all, on merit. Perhaps this why the faithful tolerate the present communistic government.

    In other words, I think it is once again an example of religious following being determined by economic factors. Allow the people to advance economically, and religious attendance will fall away, condemn them to harsh living conditions, and they will flock to the churches. +++ Trevor

    Justin
    November 24, 2004 - 01:38 am
    This question of why people adhere to the dictates of a religion, Christian, Muslim, or other, is a complex thing.

    In the depths of the Depression in the thirties, the churches in the US were full and overflowing. In my town of 50,ooo people, three Catholic churches, one synagogue, and numerous denominational Churches were active. My parish ran Masses in an upper and a lower church simultaneously every Sunday. Masses were offered every hour, starting at six a.m. and ending at eleven a.m. Every Mass was packed with people.

    When the war ended, the economy began to advance as we set out to satisfy the pent up demand created by wartime production. I think the churches held their own for a few years but as the 1950's began attendance fell off. Today,fifty years later,we have had a substantial economic expansion and Churches are closing because not enough people attend and fewer priest initiates are enlisting in the service every year.

    Is it pain, peril, and uncertainty that drives people to religion? When things seem hopeless, the last vestige of hope lies in prayer- a grasping for straws. When things are fine. When ends are met and the future seems secure, Church attendance and other last refuge measures are put off.

    The habitual church goer then, is one who is fearful much of the time. He/she is one who has been convinced that sin will send her to hell.If one does not obey the Qu'ran, the Bible or one's priest by attending prescribed services one will spend eternity in Hell.

    Of course one meets friends weekly and that brings people out to church as well. Church suppers, bazaars, and bingos keep people attending. The comraderie helps as well.

    The same may work for the mosque. Followers of Allah must have the same kind of connections with the neighborhood Mosque. Someone must pay for it's upkeep. Followers must either tithe, or donate in some way to keep the building in repair. Comraderie must arise from that activity and it must bring people to the Mosque.

    The herd instinct must play a role. When there is trouble or doubt the followers circle the wagons and defend one's own. The very act of defense helps to harden- to justify and reinforce one's position.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 24, 2004 - 04:46 am
    "Morals are in part a function of climate. Probably the heat of Arabia intensified sexual passion and precocity and some allowance should be made for men in perpetual heat. Moslem laws were designed to reduce temptation outside of marriage and increase opportunity within.

    "Premarital continence was strictly enjoined (xxiv,33) and fasting was recommended as an aid. The consent of both parties was required for marriage. That agreement, duly witnessed and sealed with a dowry from bridegroom to bride, sufficed for legal marriage, whether the parents consented or not.

    "A Moslem male was allowed to marry a Jewish or Christian woman, but not an idolatress -- i.e. a non-Christian polytheist. As in Judaism, celibacy was considered sinful, marriage obligatory and pleasing to God (xxiv,32).

    "Mohammed accepted polygamy to balance a high death rate in both sexes, the length of maternal nursing, and the early waning of reproductive powers in hot climaates. He limited the number of permitted wives to four, allowing himself a special dispensation.

    "He forbade concubinage (lxx,29-31) but held it preferable to marriage with an idolatress (ii,121).

    "Having allowed the male so many outlets for desire, the Koran punished adultery with a hundred stripes on each sinner (xxiv,2). When, on flimsy grounds, Mohammed's favorite wife, Aisha, was suspected of adultery, and gossip persistently besmirched her name, he had a trance and issued a revelation requiring four witnesses to prove adultery. Moreover, 'those who accuse honorable women, but bring not four witnesses, shall be scourged with eighty stripes and their testimony shall never again be accepted (xxiv,4).

    "Accusations of adultery were thereafter rare."

    As I look back through the various civilizations, I find it interesting how often the gods laid down various rulings regarding sex and/or marriage. The subject appeared to be of great importance.

    Regarding climate and the intensity of sexual passion, I am not convinced that there is a positive correlation that much different from the colder climes.

    Robby

    Bubble
    November 24, 2004 - 04:51 am
    Justin, in Israel, I have noticed that men who never bothered about religion, once they are retired and stay at at home, they also start to go daily to services at the neighborhood synagogogue, be it morning or evening or even both services.

    I was talking to someone about it not long ago and he explanation we reached was that people worry about their mortality when they get older and thus prefer to put all the cards on their sides. If going to the synagogue is going to win them a better afterlife it is not much effort for someone who suddenly finds himself idle and it offers the bonus of a new audience and people to gossip with.

    Bubble
    November 24, 2004 - 04:53 am
    Re post #881, Is the birth rate lower for Inuits or Eskimos? Does anyone know?

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 24, 2004 - 04:59 am
    Here is an interesting link based on research regarding the connection between warm climes and AGGRESSION AND/OR SEXUAL ARDOR. Note in particular the last paragraph.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 24, 2004 - 05:23 am
    Here is an article entitled SEX AND THE SACRED. I am aware that this is a "ticklish" subject but Durant brought it up and I see no need for us to introduce censorship into this discussion group.

    However, let us keep a couple of important items in mind.

    1 - The article is the opinion of the author and, as usual, we consider the source of each link.
    2 - Each participant here has a point of view on this sensitive subject and that, even more than usual, courtesy, consideration, and respect and a careful choice of words must be shown.

    In these days of turmoil, our knowledge of Islam is paramount and, in my opinion as Discussion Leader, it is imperative that we learn not only about Muslims and their sexual attitudes but for us to be introspective and examine our own sometimes hidden biases, be they Christian or otherwise.

    Or is it true that East is East and West is West and never the twain shall meet?

    Robby

    Bubble
    November 24, 2004 - 05:25 am
    Reflecting on the climate, it is on days of Hamsin when temperatures can rise to over 40C that one sees drivers showing their most aggressive side of "I'll show him" or "I'll teach her" and thus they cause stupid and often fatal accidents. I don't know the statistics but it seems that the number of accidents double on thaose days. I am always most careful when I need to drive on a Hamsin day.
    Bubble

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    November 24, 2004 - 05:31 am
    Bubble, you will see in these statistics that the Inuits population increases 30% more than the rest of Canada at 12%. But it is not, in my opinion enough proof that cold climates increases birth rate, but rather birth control methods are less accessible for them than for the rest of Canada. INUITS BIRTH RATE

    But the reason why there are less wars in cold climate, I think, is because the time you can spend outdoors in extreme cold weather is not long enough to be effective for combat purposes.

    But generally I do believe that people living in colder climate are calmer than their southern counterpart.

    Éloïse

    Bubble
    November 24, 2004 - 05:39 am
    Something everyone should ponder about. I see so many denying themselves joy in life on the pretext of duty or what they should be like. IMO,Life should not be a perpetual sacrifice!

    "We will have to give account on the judgment day of every good thing which we refused to enjoy when we might have done so."

    Bubble
    November 24, 2004 - 10:37 am
    Eloise, I wonder if they have TV and films? The lack of it is supposed to explain larger families in the jungle of Africa, as the need to be a large group so as to hunt together the larger preys.

    JoanK
    November 24, 2004 - 11:13 am
    Hamsin: BUBBLE: we had no air conditioning in Israel, and everyone's windows were always open. On hamsin days, you could hear arguments going on up and down the street from almost every house.

    But I don't think that is just a matter of heat. In the desert, the temperature is often over 100 in the day without a hamsin, and I didn't notice this quarrelsomeness. The hamsin wind has some quality that brings this on. My sister, who has lived in Switzerland, says there is a similiar wind there, and everyone says that quarrels don't count when the "fern" is blowing.

    I think I have noticed the same thing in this country. I remember one day when I had occasion to visit three or four couple friends (who didn't know each other) in a row. In each house as I arrived, it was clear the couple had been in the middle of an argument.

    Bubble
    November 24, 2004 - 11:28 am
    You are right Joan, I remember the Swiss fohn very well... or the Sirocco in Corsica. It means that the weather has an influence on the behavior, doesn't it?

    kiwi lady
    November 24, 2004 - 05:12 pm
    Bubble we have a North Westerly Wind here which is oppressive and humid. People get very grumpy, have migraines and the air feels so thick you could cut it with a knife. If people have to drive in this humidity it does make for more road rage.

    My mum said one year there was a very cold winter here and nobody had much money ( it was just after the war) and she says they all went to bed early to conserve fuel and keep warm. There was a big surge in the birth rate in the first few months of the next year.

    Carolyn

    Justin
    November 24, 2004 - 06:22 pm
    One often hears that folks in the NE part of the US spend December through March indoors and in bed. September through Demember are the busiest months at the Birthing centers.

    Catholicism taught me about the sin of masturbation and the priest helped me find the fun in it. When I was growing up premarital sex was almost impossible. The guys were always ready and scheming but the girls were great at resisting. I didn't blame them because condoms were not readily available and abortion was very crude and dangerous. The condition was exacerbated by religious hypocrits who were quite active.

    Traude S
    November 24, 2004 - 08:53 pm
    So many insights and comments - impossible to reply to them all.

    About dowries: in the 19th and 20th century Europe it was the bride who brought the dowry into the marriage. Catholic girls who entered religious orders brought with them a dowry given to the convent and considered themselves brides of Christ. In rural areas farmers would donate land to the church. I don't know whether male seminarians had similar financial obligations. Doubtless this contributed to the immense wealth the church has accumulated.

    MAL, I recall that some time ago there was an extensive discussion about usury, but I don't remember in which folder. Usury is despised and illegal in many countries because it is an exorbitant rate of interest, esp. in excess of the legal rate. Charging interest is an accepted practice, it is the rate that determines if and when it becomes usury.

    BUBBLE and MAHLIA, ÉLOÏSE and CAROLYN, thank you for your wonderful contributions and excellent links.

    ROBBY one of the links (Aggression and/or Sexual Ardor) shut down my AOL three times in a row, so I stopped trying. For my part, I have never thought of discussing intimate personal details with a man (or woman) of the cloth, nor ever consulted a lay professional.

    Yes, BUBBLE, I remember the Föhn and the Scirocco and know how they affect the emotions.

    Persian
    November 24, 2004 - 09:12 pm
    Slightly off-topic, but I wanted to share the following news and thank those of you who have provided such wonderful encouragement for our family:

    My son, David (who has been serving as a Special Forces Chaplain in Central Asia since last June), left Afghanistan and spent the day in Germany, enroute to his home base in the USA. Tomorrow is his 41st birthday and he expects to be home by noon, thus enabling him to enjoy Thanksgiving dinner and share his birthday cake with his family at his own table.

    JoanK
    November 24, 2004 - 09:14 pm
    MAHLIA: that's wonderful!! Will he be based in the US now?

    Persian
    November 24, 2004 - 09:57 pm
    JOAN - my understanding is that David will be home for a few months and then off again on another international deployment. I'm not yet sure where that will be, but probably NOT a family accompanied assignment. He will be starting a doctoral program in 2005 and hopes to fit that challenge in around his military obligations.

    Justin
    November 25, 2004 - 12:12 am
    Mahlia: Having David home is a wonderful gift. You know he is safe for now. I am happy for you.

    kiwi lady
    November 25, 2004 - 12:28 am
    Mahlia I am very glad David will be coming home. I hope he manages to have some rest and relaxation.

    Have a Happy Thanksgiving everyone!

    Carolyn

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 25, 2004 - 03:01 am
    Happy news for David and his family and you, MAHLIA.

    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 25, 2004 - 03:02 am
    China's poor and Religion

    Bubble
    November 25, 2004 - 03:33 am
    Mazal Tov, Mahlia on the good news. I hope David can use the time at home to relax and unwind. Life in the army can be so psychologically and mentally tense. There could be no better Thanksgiving present for you both. Bubble

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 25, 2004 - 03:43 am
    Reunion




    Florence DeLuca had lived in an apartment over Freeman’s Jewelry Store for forty years. The flat wasn’t big, but it was situated in such a way that Flo could see the Merrimack River through the alley between Mitchell’s Department Store and Sceva Speare’s across the street. It was a pretty sight in Spring with tiny leaves sprouting on trees on the opposite bank. In Summer Florence saw all kinds of flowers blooming over there. Fall’s vivid display hit her smack in the face, and in Winter drifts of snow and ice on the river cracked and groaned making her glad she had a snug little home.



    It was a good place to live. She walked across Merrimack Street to buy her butter and coffee at Kennedy’s. Twice a week she went up the street to Mohegan’s Market for the rest of her groceries. The little red cart she pulled was loaded with food every Wednesday and Saturday morning. She had come to be known as the Red Wagon Lady because of that.



    Mr. Freeman was kind about her rent. He’d raised it only ten dollars since he bought the building. Joe’s a good Jew, Florence thought. But then, Jesus was a Jew when he started out, wasn’t he? Florence worried a little when Joe retired and turned the business over to his son, but Abe Freeman was as good a man as his father, and let her polish silver in the back room of the store instead of increasing the amount she had to pay. Now that Joe and Minnie spent most of their time in Florida, Abe kept the same kind of watchful eye on her that Joe Freeman had.



    “You warm enough, Flo?” he asked early in November when the wind blew cold over the river.



    “Sure am,” Florence said, “thanks to you.”



    “Just wanted to be sure,” Abe said. “Those old windows up there can be pretty drafty.”



    Florence laughed. “If I’m not used to it now I never will be.”



    “I suppose so,” Abe said thoughtfully. “What are you doing Thanksgiving, Flo? You must be lonely now that your friend Patsy’s passed on.”



    Florence sighed. “Well, yes,” she said. “I miss her a lot.” She looked up toward heaven just above the roof of the building. “I imagine she’s raising hell up there with the angels, keeping ‘em in line.”



    Abe laughed. “She was a pistol, wasn’t she?”



    “Sure was,” Florence smiled. “Never let me get away with a thing.”



    “Will you be going to a friend’s, do you think?”



    “Thanksgiving?” Flo asked. “No. I’m buyin’ a turkey to roast and staying home.”



    “Don’t do that, Flo,” he said. “I’ve got a few put aside at Mohegan’s. I’ll give you one.”



    “That’s just what Joe would do. You’re your father’s own son, you are,” Florence said.



    “I hope so,” Abe smiled. “I’d hate to think my father was the UPS guy or somebody else I don’t know.”



    Florence laughed. “Get on with ya,” she said. “You got business to tend to, and I’ve got errands to do.”



    She walked over to Main Street and trudged up the hill to St. James. Once a month she polished silver in the church. Father Flanagan told her once she was the best silver polisher in town.



    While she worked, she thought about Thanksgiving. It would be nice to share her meal, she supposed, but there wasn’t anybody she wanted to ask. That old curmudgeon she talked to every time she went out would be going to his daughter’s. Besides, she didn’t want Pete Nelson around anyway. Get him near a woman he thought he was still a sexed-up football player in Haverhill High. She didn’t have to put up with that kind of stuff. Flo’s husband, Sal, was killed in Korea. Some marriage they had. They lived together two weeks before he was shipped overseas. Patsy had passed away, and so did her cousin, Lucia. Ma and Papa and her brother were gone. Who else did that leave? Almost nobody who wasn’t otherwise occupied, living or dead.



    So many times Lucia had pleaded with her to move off Merrimack Street and get away from downtown. “It’s dangerous,” she said.



    “No more dangerous than where you are,” Florence told her.

    “What do you mean? My place in those new apartments on North Avenue is tight as a drum.”



    “That may well be,” Florence said, “but living in that place is dangerous for your head. I’d go crazy up there in those woods. Nobody to talk to. I run into somebody every time I go out.”



    “I think you’re nuts,” Lucia said.



    “So be it,” Florence said, not quite shoving her cousin out the door, but almost.



    Florence did her baking early. Had to. Every year she gave Abe a box of pastries she made for his family for Chanukah. Every box she gave away to Christians was decorated with a red, green and white doily she crocheted, blue and white for the Jewish friends she had. Her place was full of her handiwork. There were doilies on all the tables and bureaus, handmade antimacassars on her overstuffed rocker and chair with doilies on the arms. At Christmas time she hung little Santa Clauses and angels she’d crocheted from the window shades and the little plastic tree she had. The week before Christmas she went up and down Merrimack Street distributing her homemade gifts. The biggest boxes went to St. James for the nuns in the convent and the priests. She did the same thing before Thanksgiving with candy she made, only each box had a hand crocheted turkey on its top.



    Florence always made mashed potatoes, creamed onions and squash to go with Thanksgiving turkey. Cranberry sauce came out of a can. On the side she had a little plate of antipasto with olives, prosciutto, provolone cheese and celery. A loaf of good Italian bread from the bakery she smeared with garlic and olive oil rounded out the meal.



    Her mother never fussed about Thanksgiving. New to the country, she never got used to the idea, Florence guessed. Ma made her gravy every Sunday, enough for the week, so they had spaghetti, just as usual, and whatever Ma had on hand to go with it. Stuffed peppers maybe, veal parmegian’ maybe, whatever came out of the Frigidaire.



    “So what’s the fuss about?” she used to say. “Thanksgiving’s every day.”



    “You’re right,” Florence told her, “but it might be nice to have a turkey with all the fixin’s once in a while.”



    “You’re too American,” her father would say. “What’s wrong with the old country’s ways?” Only he said it in Italian, which to Florence made it sound much fiercer than it really was.



    Maybe I should make pasta for Ma, Florence thought. If she did, though, she’d have to make rolletini for Pa. She couldn’t afford that.



    Patsy wasn’t Italian. Her mother was Irish, and her father was Polish. He and his daughter wanted babka for every holiday, not just Easter. Maybe I should make a babka for Patsy, Florence considered. No, it sounded too much like work.



    Cousin Lucia was more American than Florence was. No Italian dishes ever went on her table. Her favorite at Thanksgiving was mince pie with hard sauce. I should maybe make mince pie for her? Florence thought.



    So it was on Thanksgiving Day that Florence set up the card table near the living room windows so she could see outside while she ate, and put the turkey Abe gave her, all the vegetables and the antipasto, spaghetti for her mother, rolletini for Pa, babka for Patsy and mince pie for Lucia on her table, along with a good bottle of wine she’d picked up at the package store the night before.



    She sat down at the table, and before she did another thing, she bowed her head and said, “God bless this food in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I’m thankful for this reunion today, if only for the food.”

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 25, 2004 - 03:47 am
    When she raised her head and picked up the carving knife, she saw her favorite pigeon roosting on the window ledge. Without a second thought, Florence opened the window and slipped out a handful of sesame seeds for him. He looked at her with a sharp black eye; then peck-pecked-pecked away at her gift.



    “Another hungry mouth to feed. That makes six of us.” Florence said. “Now, let me be, all of you. I want to eat.”



    MMF
    All rights reserved
    © 2004

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 25, 2004 - 04:19 am
    I will continue Durant's text this morning and later this evening but later this morning I will spend a few hours at a local combination Assisted Living/Nursing Home. I know the staff and my plan is to move around gradually so that I will be able to spend some time with everyone there. It might be in the dining room at dinner time or it might be at their bedside. A number of the men are WWII veterans so we can swap some memories.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 25, 2004 - 04:28 am
    Traude:--It sounds as if AOL has some sort of built-in censor that prevents people from reading anything with phrases like "Sexual Ardor." If that's true, on this Thanksgiving Day, we may have it difficult giving thanks that we live in a "free" nation. Durant, however, was free to write as he saw fit, so let us continue with his words.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 25, 2004 - 04:39 am
    "Divorce was permitted to the male by the Koran, as by the Talmud, on almost any ground. The wife might divorce her husband by returning her dowry to him (ii.229).

    "While accepting the pre-Islamic liberty of divorce for the male, Mohammed discouraged it, saying that nothing was so displeasing to God. Arbiters should be appointed 'one from his folk and one from hers,' and every effort made at reconciliation (iv.35).

    "Three successive declarations, at monthly intervals, were required to make a divorce legal. To compel careful thought about it, the husband, was not allowed to remarry his divorced wife until after she had been married and divorced by another man.

    "The husband must not go in to his wife during her periods. She was not to be considered 'unclean' at that time but she must purify herself ritually before resuming cohabitation.

    "Women are 'a tilth' to man -- a field to be cultivated. It is an obligation of the man to beget children. The wife should recognize the superior intelligence and therefore superior authority of the male. She must obey her husband. If she rebels he should 'banish her to a bed apart, and scourge her' (iv. 34).

    "'Every woman who dieth, and her husband is pleased with her, shall enter paradise' (iv.35).'"

    I am wondering if Allah considered a husband and wife still married in Paradise and, if so, how about all those virgins promised to him.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 25, 2004 - 04:45 am
    Here are some definitions of TILTH.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 25, 2004 - 05:04 am
    Here are some ANECDOTES about Thanksgiving and American residents from other lands.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 25, 2004 - 05:14 am
    Click HERE to find out what Religion is doing to China.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 25, 2004 - 05:31 am
    Click HERE to see how Religion is changing in Kashmir.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 25, 2004 - 05:44 am
    Here is something for which to give thanks. As of today INDIANS are finally permitted to enter Boston.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 25, 2004 - 05:46 am
    Are you all giving thanks for this Plethora of links, or are you getting overwhelmed?

    Robby

    Bubble
    November 25, 2004 - 05:53 am
    I wonder if the common Bostonian was aware of that law.

    This is a step forward in the right direction. Thanks should be given to any initiative promoting understanding and equality for all/

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    November 25, 2004 - 05:56 am
    HAPPY THANKSGIVING ALL AMERICANS

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 25, 2004 - 06:10 am
    Are you all giving thanks for this Plethora of links, or are you getting overwhelmed?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 25, 2004 - 06:11 am
    What do we know about that FIRST THANKSGIVING?

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 25, 2004 - 06:39 am
    ROBBY, I've come down with a case of Linkoerwhelmia, especially since you posted a link to the same article about China that I did.

    BUBBLE, didn't you know there is no such thing as a "common" Bostonian? There are a few "Proper Bostonians", and the rest are Red Sox fans.

    Mal

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    November 25, 2004 - 07:13 am
    Mahlia, I know how you feel to have your son coming home for Thanksgiving AND his birthday. What is it about mothers that we still want our children around us even when they are middle aged. My son lives in Switzerland and he comes home almost every two years and it seems like an eternity to me. He will be coming for Christmas this year and also my eldest daughter who also lives away in the US. It is a major rejoicing time for us to be all together.

    I wonder what we would be celebrating if it weren't Thanksgiving and Christmas, both celebrate God.

    Traude S
    November 25, 2004 - 08:54 am
    MAHLIA - Your son's return on Thanksgiving makes this special holiday even more joyful and poignant for your entire family. I am so happy for you.

    Scrawler
    November 25, 2004 - 10:00 am
    Climate: I don't know about hot weather, but living in Portland, Oregon we have nine months out of the year of RAIN! Talk about your "grumpy" people - we tend not to look at each other during this time and we mumble alot. Than when the sun comes out we act like we've never seen it before and everybody is happy.

    I'm glad David is coming home.

    Happy Thanksgiving to all Americans.

    Peace always one and all.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 25, 2004 - 12:07 pm
    Sorry about my repeating a link you already gave, Mal. A bunch of Indians carrying turkeys and corn came in hootin' and hollerin' and completely distracted me!

    Robby

    Bubble
    November 25, 2004 - 12:27 pm
    where those squaws. Robby? What is the weather like, where you are? *grin*

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 25, 2004 - 01:05 pm
    Bubble:-If those were squaws, I wouldn't be wasting time talking with you guys about the past when the present was so inviting!! Everybody here knows the old expression -- "just because there's snow on the roof doesn't mean there's no fire in the furnace."

    Here in Virginia there has been a steady rain for three days. The skies have cleared and they predict a sudden drop today from 60F to 40F. Out with the woolen cap and mittens.

    Robby

    Bubble
    November 25, 2004 - 01:55 pm
    Brrrrr... and I am freezing with 12C tonight,that is 53F.

    I love those old expressions. You know how picturesque the Biblical language is, and so is everyday Hebrew. To a squaw standing proudly erect you would say: your posture is like a poppy in the spring. Of course it is still not as flowery as the Songs of Solomon.

    http://www.andrechouraqui.com/antho/shir/shir1.htm

    http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=SONG+1&language=english&version=NASB

    I find the English translation dryer.

    Persian
    November 25, 2004 - 02:03 pm
    ELOISE & TRAUDE - many thanks for your good words. David will be returning to HIS home at his military base, NOT to mine, which is about 2 1/2 hours away. My birthdy is next week, so by then he should have processed his return and leave, and perhaps will be able to come here to visit. He joked in a recent message that although he hoped to eat his own birthday cake today, which is his birthday, he was going to leave room for a slice of my birthday cake also.

    SCRAWLER - I lived in Portland as a youngster and throughout my first year in high school. I fondly remember the rain during the year, but NOT any grumpy people. Portland was where I first owned a bright red rain slicker and matching boots!

    kiwi lady
    November 25, 2004 - 02:21 pm
    Well as weather is the topic I am reporting high winds , hail storms, thunder and heavy rain. This is November! Usually warm and humid it was cold enough for me to turn on my little heater for half an hour this morning. I don't think we are going to have much summer this year! I am cringing because one of my American cyber pals from one of the lists I belong to is holidaying here. Goodness knows what she thinks!

    Carolyn

    winsum
    November 25, 2004 - 02:25 pm
    ""It's a known fact that heat destroys testosterone," he adds. "Taking a cold shower may actually be a good thing."



    So when young men who like to evaluate the sexual attractiveness of young women refer to one as HOT it is a self defeating evauation. Interesting.

    winsum
    November 25, 2004 - 02:43 pm
    my fault . . I sent it to you and to robby since I didn't think I could post it here . . relevance. and I wanted you both to see it.

    Robby said it was relevant and that he would post it and evidently you thought so too. It is a very long article but fascinating and scarey since it's happening here in this country.

    There was another with this kind of thing involved called OUR PHILOSOPHER KING which is too political to put here but is in todays washington post. I think of what's happening as the DISMANTALING of AMERICA.. It's odd that we can talk about sex but not politics and at AOL it's just the opposite. . . .We even have an interesting discussion on the subject going on here at seniornet. . . . claire vlaire hmmm that's a typo but it reminds me voltaire. I could do worse.

    Justin
    November 25, 2004 - 02:51 pm
    Many thanks to everyone for a pleasant year of frank and open discussion on topics of great moment.

    I am going to my daughter's for dinner. My extended family is large and friendly with a good mix of Republicans and Democrats so I am looking forward to a pleasant afternoon.

    Not everyone is so fortunate, I realize. The newspaper that covers my little town reports this morning that a second hometown Marine is coming home in a casket. We cannot be happy about that. They are neighbors so I may go over to visit after dinner. They were so proud of that boy when he was in high school and now he's gone.

    Thanksgiving Day is a time to count our blessings but it is also a day in which the lives of others are at risk in a far land away from family and friends. I am thankful today for the troops who stand in harms way.

    winsum
    November 25, 2004 - 03:00 pm
    winsum - 01:54pm Nov 25, 2004 PST (#103 of 103) Edit MessageDelete Message Sunny southern CA

    thanksgiving day

    funny this is the first year I've forgotten it. Didn't remember until I got on line and everyone was posting greetings so HAPPY THANKSGIVING ALL Mine is much less fattening since my family is far away and I don't bother. I don't mind either. have a good one. . . . claire
    I'm grateful that I've never experienced a physical war on my home grounds. New Yorkers weren't so lucky considering the trade center, but at least it wasn't house to house mayhem. I'm very grateful for that. . . . claire

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 25, 2004 - 05:24 pm
    Here is the review of the latest movie of ALEXANDER THE GREAT.

    Robby

    winsum
    November 25, 2004 - 06:29 pm
    who kept the Iliad by his bedside. I didn't want to join in the discussion of that here because it's all about war and violence and treachery and probably where Alex got some of his STUFF. I'm not going to go to the movie either . . . . trailers show one violent scene after another . . . couldn't stand three hours of that even if the HERO is a beautiful blonde HUNK. . . . Claire

    Justin
    November 26, 2004 - 01:26 am
    The critics did not like Achilles either.What do they know? I liked it. Brad fit my ideal of Achilles and the battle scenes were sweeping panoramas of men and ships. Most critics were either asleep in class or failed to grasp the story awake. We know what Alex did and will appreciate Stone's effort.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 26, 2004 - 04:17 am
    Assuming we are not all asleep from the L-tryptophan in turkey, let us follow Durant's words:-

    "The legal disabilities of women barely matched the power of their eloquence, their tenderness, and their charms. Omar, the future caliph, rebuked his wife for speaking to him in a tone that he considered disrespectful. She assured him that this was the tone in which his daughter Hafsa, and the other wives of Mohammed, spoke to the Prophet of Allah. Omar went at once and remonstrated with Hafsa and another of Mohammed's wives. He was told to mind his business, and he retired in dismay.

    "Hearing of all this, Mohammed laughted heartily. Like other Moslems he quarreled now and then with his wives but he did not cease to be fond of them, or to speak of women with becoming sentiment. He is reported to have said:-'The most valuable thing in the world is a virtuous woman!' Twice in the Koran he reminded Moslems that their mothers had carried them with pain. brought them forth with pain, nursed them for twenty-four to thirty months.

    "He said:-'Paradise is at the foot of the mother.'"

    Any comments regarding this?

    Robby

    Bubble
    November 26, 2004 - 05:54 am
    http://www.nubrain.com/trypto.html

    wow! one does learn on a variety of topics here!

    Mohammed laughing about quarrels and fondness of his wives can still be witnessed today in the region. There is no shyness or shame about screaming displeasure and having the whole neighborhood hear the arguments. It is a precursor to the soap operas one sees on TV. It sure is better than keeping all theose feelings bottled up inside.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 26, 2004 - 06:33 am
    Religion and the State

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 26, 2004 - 06:56 am
    "The greatest problems of the moralist are first to make co-operation attractive and then to determine the size of the whole or group with which he will counsel pre-eminent co-operation.

    "A perfect ethic would ask the paramount co-operation of every part with the greatest whole -- with the universe itself, or its essential life and order, or God. On that plane religion and morality would be one.

    "But morality is the child of custom and the grandchild of compulsion. It develops co-operation only within aggregates equipped with force.

    "Therefore all actual morality has been group morality."

    It may help at this point to remind ourselves of Durant's progressive steps as he describes each culture or civilization. The phrase in the Heading beginning "Four elements . . " explains his method. So far in discussing Mohammed and the Koran he has covered the economic and political aspects. He is now about to discuss moral traditions.

    This may ring a bell as the term "moral values" has been bandied about in our culture in recent years. As we examine both morality in Mohammed's time and in our time, the terms he has used may become relevant. Is religion and morality one? Is morality the child of custom? Where does compulsion enter into it? Does co-operation develops only when accompanied by force -- either within the family or in the larger group? What makes morality attractive?

    What does Durant mean when he says that "all actual morality is group morality?"

    Robby

    Scrawler
    November 26, 2004 - 12:13 pm
    40 degrees! That's our high today. When I went out early this morning it was 28 degrees and I slid down my hill to the grocery store on black ice. It's almost time to get out my snowshoes out so I can get my mail at the bottom of my hill.

    winsum
    November 26, 2004 - 12:25 pm
    is in the eye of the beholder -- the only criterea being, does it work for the majority. . . . and so closely alliad with religion, also in the hearts and minds of the participants.

    When the current morality isn't working there is disruption in every field. What seems to work is gradual change, as in the changes in sexual mores that has occurred over the last fifty or sixty years here in the USA. .. .

    Attempts to legislate are usually failures. . . . claire

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 26, 2004 - 03:36 pm
    I think morality begins in the home. A child is told, "Don't do that; you'll get hurt." Or, "If you do that, you'll be punished," which are one and the same.

    These commands are coming from a higher authority, i.e. the parents. Government makes the authority "the Law". Religion takes it even farther than that and puts the authority into the hands of an invisible deity that surely will strike you dead if you misbehave. People are taught at home and in places of worship that they'll go to heaven if they are "good." The lollipop at the end of the rainbow, the ultimate reward.

    Is good behavior (morality) based on fear? Or is it a means of self-protection?

    Durant says morality is the child of custom. Where do the parents learn the custom they pass down to the child? I think they (and we) learn it from many different sources, not just one.

    Durant also says morality is the grandchild of compulsion. To me "compulsion" says I can do anything if and when I feel compelled to do it. Morality is the result of a reaction to compulsion? Create a set of rules to counteract compulsions?

    "All actual morality has been group morality." Sure. "If you do that, what will people think?" -- ultimately, what will God think? Does a god think?

    How does a group of people all come to the same ideas about morality? That seems easy to answer if a person is Catholic, or if a person is a Muslim. What about the people who are neither, or something else, or belong to no religion at all?

    Morals are different in different groups. Christian morals are different from those of Islam, for example. Victorian morals were different from those of today. Today's morals in the United States are different from when I was a child. Unlike the Ten Commandments, morality is not cut in stone.

    For me it all boils down to what I learned over a period of years: Life's easier when you're good to yourself and others. Do unto others, etc. That leads into a discussion about what is "good".

    Mal

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 26, 2004 - 05:05 pm
    "Mohammed's ethic transcended the limits of the tribe in which he was born but was imprisoned in the creedal group which he formed. After his victory in Mecca he restricted, but could not quite abolish, the plundering raids of tribe against tribe, and gave to all Arabia, implicitly to all Islam, a new sense of unity, a wider orbit of co-operation and loyalty.

    'The believers are naught else than brothers'(xlix,10).

    "Distinction of rank or race, so strong among the tribes, was diminished by similarity of belief.

    'If a negro slave is appointed to rule you, hear and obey him, though his head be like a dried grape.'

    "It was a noble conception that made one people of diverse nations scattered over the continents. This is the glory of both Christianity and Islam."

    Religion unifies? -- whether Islamic or Christian?

    Robby

    Traude S
    November 26, 2004 - 05:22 pm


    Durant says "But morality is the child of CUSTOM and the grandchild of COMPULSION. It develops COOPERATION only within aggregates of FORCE." (emphasis mine).


    Those two sentences alone and the capitalized words could be discussed at some length, requiring pilpul. Durant seems (to me) to make a pronouncement, and I am not sure I want to follow him there:

    whose/what "custom"?

    It (morality) "develops COOPERATION only within aggregates of force", what (unspecified!) "aggregates" of force?

    "Cooperation"??? That would be involuntary , and after the administration of (unspecified!) "aggregates of force". Wouldn't the term "compliance" be more logical?



    Regarding" ...all ACTUAL morality is group morality" ...

    "actual" presumably as in "genuine", bu) under the concept of "safety in numbers"?



    IS warning children to stay away from open fires, scalding water and hot burners teaching morality or a lesson in practical living?

    IS religion intricately linked to, indispensable for, and the sole means of developing a sense of morality?

    Is it possible to MANDATE morality by law, specifically with "aggregates of force" ?

    Yes, ROBBY, religion does unify people, I think, to the same extent that anything people can share is a unifying factor.

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    November 26, 2004 - 06:19 pm
    “Is religion and morality one?” Even if they are linked in some way, it does not mean that they are the same.

    “Is morality the child of custom?”

    Morality I believe is a combination of culture, religion and upbringing. I don’t know where compulsion fits into morality. To me it has nothing to do with it.

    “What makes morality attractive?”

    Morality is attractive in order to achieve order in society otherwise there is chaos. Everybody does not have the same definition of morality.

    “Does co-operation develops only when accompanied by force?"

    Cooperation is more effective when accompanied by love, not force.

    "all actual morality is group morality?"

    Self-morality to me is the conscience, it only exists between the self and God. Humans in society need order (morality) to function in an acceptable manner for the survival of the species.

    Éloïse

    Justin
    November 26, 2004 - 06:26 pm
    Yes,I think that is so. Religion unifies, thereby producing blocks of conservative leaning people who tend to create barriers restricting the activities of those who have not unified. The process invariably leads to divisiveness.

    It is thus, in the US today. Conservatives, for example, seem to be united in a loose coalition focused on restricting American freedoms. ( The Patriot Act, Reproductive freedoms, etc.) Progressives appear to be united in a desire to breakdown religious barriers and to return freedom of action to all Americans.

    The forces are in balance today but there is always a threat that an extreme may be approached. On the conservative far right lies dictatorship and on the progressive far left lies anarchy.

    Traude S
    November 26, 2004 - 07:32 pm
    I failed to check # 943 after editing it. Something was lost, the repetition unintended, but the essence is there. Apologies.

    3kings
    November 26, 2004 - 09:03 pm
    Morality is an ever shifting concept, and is determined by the most persuasive and forceful members of our group, whether family, friends, or nation.

    Christ's morality was to love ones enemies , and one of his commandments was not to kill.

    Those moral virtues are ignored, and even scorned, once the political leaders think it desirable.

    A man of my acquaintance had, as a young man in the First World War, spent years in prison, because of his religious beliefs. By the time of WW2, he was Prime Minister, and within minutes of Great Britain declaring war on Germany, he placed NZ into combat, and in case 'Moral Persuasion " should fail to generate a large enough army, he introduced conscription.

    Now in WW1 he followed his conscience, and was scorned and punished for that. In WW2 he was caste by the propagandists as a man of high moral calibre, for sending young men to kill and be killed.

    Morality is a shifting concept and as Durant said, it is something forced upon individuals by their longing to conform to the dictates of the many and the powerful. ++ Trevor

    Fifi le Beau
    November 26, 2004 - 10:19 pm
    Robby asks, religion unifies? Whether Islamic or Christian?

    Durant worked on Caesar and Christ from 1939 to 1944. His research led to Age of Faith and it was finished in 1949. During this time span Christian Europe had their second world war. Religion seemed to play no part in unifying Europe. They have only made a start at unification after the influence of religion waned drastically in that part of the world.

    Nationalization united closely related groups to form countries, something that religion never accomplished. Closely related clans seemed more important to unification than religion.

    The rise of Protestantism did divide countries. My grandfather (many times removed) escaped from France with a price on his head because he had married a Protestant and allowed their meetings on his property. He fled in the middle of the night with his wife, small son, and a servant across the channel to England, where the King gave them protection. Much blood was spilled within France over religion.

    Durants description of 7th century Arabia and Mohammed uniting the country to one religion, did little to change their tribal way of life. The plundering raids of tribe against tribe continued even in Mohammed's time.

    One thousand two hundred years later modern day Arabia was formed into a country named after the man who united all the tribes, Abdul Aziz 'Ibn Sa'ud. Beginning in 1900 Arabia then seemed little different than at the time of Mohammed. The buildings were still of mud and straw and the camel was still the mode of transportation. Abdul Aziz had never seen a car or train.

    Raiding was still a way of life, and they got their booty the same way Mohammed got his by robbing the caravans. Oil money was not seen till 1933 when Abdullah Suleiman the Finance Minister took delivery of 35,000 in gold sovereigns and stashed it under his bed. There was no administrative infrastructure, and he worked from home.

    Their main source of income was still the hajj and the Kaaba in Mecca. It also provided them with a steady supply of slaves up until the 1960's. The uniter of Arabia did it by force with the gun, not religion.

    Islam did not unite Arabia as a country, as Christianity did not unite Europe. The countries of the middle east are no more united than Europe was in the time of Durant's writing this book.

    The only unification that has come from the middle east in the oil producing countries is under the god of greed, which is a religion to itself.

    Genocide is happening in Africa today under the banner of Islam. Men, women, and children killed, their homes burned because they are not muslim. A religious war for the 21st century.

    Within Islam there are divisions, as with Christianity.

    Unite and divide seems to be my conclusion.

    Fifi

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 27, 2004 - 05:03 am
    Some magnificent posts here. You guys are wonderful!

    Thank you, Fifi, for that detailed info which caused me to do a lot of thinking -- especially your last comment of "unite and divide." That makes me look at the daily news with a sharpened eye.

    Trevor, your comments about morality make me look at the daily news with, shall I say, a jaundiced eye?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 27, 2004 - 05:32 am
    "To that transcendent love, in both Christianity and Islam, corresponded an astringent antagonism to all who would not believe.

    "Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. Choose not your fathers nor your brothers for friends if they take pleasure in disbelief rather than in faith' (v,51,55; ix,23)

    "Mohammed interpreted these principles with some moderation 'Let there be no violence in religion. If they embrace Islam they are surely directed. But if they turn their backs, verily to thee belongs preaching only.' 'Give a respite to the disbelievers. Deal thou gently with them for a while' (xxxvi,17)

    "But against Arab unbelievers who did not peaceably submit Mohammed preached the jihad or holy war, a crusade in the name of Allah. After the war with the Quraish had begun, and when the 'sacred months' of truce were past, enemy unbelieves were to be killed wherever found (ix.5).

    'But if any of the idolaters seeketh thy protection, then protect him that he may hear the word of Allah. If they repent and establish worship' (accept Islam) 'then leave their way free' (ix,5-6).

    'Kill not the old man who cannot fight nor young children, nor women.'

    "Every able-bodied male in Islam must join in the holy war. 'Lo, Allah loveth those who battle for His cause. I swear by Allah that marching about, morning and evening, to fight for religion is better than the world and everything in it. And verily the standing of one of you in the line of battle is better than supererogatory prayers performed in your house for sixty years.'

    "This war ethic, however, is no general incitement to war. 'Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Allah loveth not aggressors' (ii,90). Mohammed accepts the laws of war as practiced by the Christian nations of his time and wages war against Quraish unbelievers holding Mecca precisely as Urban II would preach a crusade against Moslems holding Jerusalem."

    Reading these words of Durant written decades ago is almost like reading today's daily newspapers. Violent or not, there seems to be, in my opinion, no room in the Islamic religion for patience or forgiveness. It is "my way or the highway."

    While Mohammed says that Allah loveth not aggressors, he says "deal thou gently with them for a while." The underlining is mine. His comment of "begin not hostilities" implies, to me at least, that the Muslims in this 21st century believe that the Western culture took the first action -- whatever that may be.

    His comment of "accepting the laws of war exactly as practiced by the Christian nations of his time" speaks for itself.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 27, 2004 - 05:39 am
    Here is a definition of SUPEREROGATORY.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 27, 2004 - 06:02 am
    Read this SAD STORY in this morning's NY Times of this German woman who married a Muslim.

    Robby

    Persian
    November 27, 2004 - 10:01 am
    This is indeed a very sad story, laced with the horrors of watching someone beloved turn to barbaric acts in the name of Islam. I'm truly surprised that a Western woman (regardless of her love for her husband) stayed in the marriage so long AND that she accepted a second wife for her husband.

    I've known several Muslim couples in which the wife was a Western woman converted to Islam, who were not able to have children, but the husbands did NOT take additional wives. Two of the couples adopted children in the USA; a third adopted a nephew and raised him as their own son; and another couple divorced. Yet the cultural pressures of living away from her own country - Germany - certainly seemed to be in force in the Times story.

    Most assuredly there would have been tremendous cultural pressures in Saudi Arabia to adhere to traditional cultural roles, espsecially for a western woman who converted to Islam and married to an Arab Muslim. In this aspect, I speak from experience, as my husband is an Egyptian Muslim. Several years ago when I was invited to teach in Saudi Arabia, I refused the invitation at the insistance of my husband and son. I did the same in response to another invitation to teach in the UAE.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 27, 2004 - 10:14 am
    Mahlia:-Would you mind expanding a bit on how life would have been different for you if you had taught in Egypt or the United Arab Emirate?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 27, 2004 - 10:36 am
    Some participants may find this article on TOLERANCE IN ISLAM of interest.

    Robby

    Scrawler
    November 27, 2004 - 12:23 pm
    I think morality is a part of us from the time that we can reason. Up until that time we are busy observing the world around us. And from these observations come our idea of what morality should be.

    I can't agree that religion unites us; at least not organized religion. I think like morality; religion must come from what is inside of us. Since we agree that we are all individuals than our concepts must also be different from others. Each having their own philosophy. Some will even say that they have no philosophy and that in itself is a philosophy of a kind.

    Persian
    November 27, 2004 - 12:49 pm
    ROBBY - I don't mind explaining a bit more about my invitations to teach in Saudi Arabia and UAE, but I want to be sure that there is a clear understanding that I am an atypical WEstern woman, who has had many yeas of cultural, living and working experience among people and communities in the Middle East. Plus, I am Irish AND Persian, both of which ethnic characteristics means that I have a very healthy temper.

    I have worn the veil when visiting in rural areas and knowing that I would meet and interact with traditional Muslims, but it was MY decision to do so as a gesture of respect for their culture. I have never worn a Burkaa, nor would I. The Burkaa is an exaggerated interpretation of Prophet Muhammad's counsel to women to dress modestly. There is absolutely NOTHING in the Qur'an that instructs women to cover themselves from head to toe.

    In both cases, my invitations were extended by university administrators whom I knew personally, were familiar with me through my work in an American university, as a former officer in a Middle Easter culture & education Bureau in Washington DC, and as a visiting professor abroad. Neither of my potential hosts knew my husband, although he had also taught in Saudi Arabia some years earlier (and did NOT enjoy the experience). My invitations were to teach in a women's university; housing would be provided or I would be eligible for a housing allowance. The salaries were comparable with my salary in the USA and I would be given generous holiday and leave allowances.

    However, once I accepted, signed a contract and entered the country, I would be viewed in an exceedingly close manner, since my husband is an Egyptian Muslim. He would, of course, accompany me, but the invitation was to me, not to him. That was the first potential problem area: Middle Eastern male vanity vis-a-vis being married to a professional Western woman. Let me be cleaer: the concern was NOT from my husband, but from the Middle Eastern male colleagues who knew of the invitation, along the lines of "why was your wife invited and not you?" (My husbadn is a university professor of British and American Literature.)

    Equally of concern (to the same group), was that my behavior - inside and outside the classroom - would be viewed with a very careful prism to make sure that none of my actions would reflect negatively on my husband (whether he was present at the moment or not). This concern wold come from ANY of the male administrators or teachers whom we might meet in country, as well as those in the USA who knew of the invitation.

    And, finally, the REAL concern (or at least the one that I took most seriously) was voiced by my son: he was concerned that as a progressive, independent and professional American woman teaching in an Arab country at a time when there were very clear rumblings (long before the West paid much attention) that there were going to be problems with Islamic fundamentalists, I would be treated in a negative fashion, possibly be a victim of a kidnapping, or in some way be in danger. This last concern was VERY PROMINENTLY voiced by both my son and husband.

    Whereas I've taught in the Middle East previously, it was at a time when Americans were treated very well. I have many university friends from Middle Eastern countries and have repeatedly received invitations to teach and or be a guest lecturer at their universities. But the sitaution changed severely several years ago.

    Thus, my own thinking about accepting the invitations was that not only was I possibly courting danger for msyelf, but that there would possibly be reprisals agaisnt my husband. And that would really arouse my Irish/Persian temper! So I decided to take on the Washington DC etablishment instead.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 27, 2004 - 01:24 pm
    Thank you for all that, Mahlia. It seems, to me at least, that the terms Tolerance and Islam don't go together.

    Robby

    Persian
    November 27, 2004 - 01:58 pm
    Sure the terms go together, Robby, but perhaps in a different way than you are thinking of them.

    For example, Allah has tolerance for humans and as an example of that, he tried "one more time" (after the Jews and Christians turned away from him) with Islam. And there are some really wonderful people in the Abrahamic religions, but as we already know, some real jerks, too. And those who for whatever reason have turned to extreme forms of Islam should NOT be looked at as representative of ALL Muslims.

    Just like in any culture, religion, community, profession, work-place, etc., many people are wonderful, kind-hearted, logical and a pleasure to be around. And some are not. I have always found Islam overall to be worthy of respect and those who follow the faith in a reasonable manner to be true Muslims. Those who encourage misintepretation, misrepresentation and insist on pushing their own agendas and greed to the forefront are simply NOT worthy of being called Muslims, when there are so many others who truly represent the core of Islam.

    Although our intentions are certainly positive in this forum, one brief discussion (as we have been having here), while enjoyable and educational, will NOT serve to help non-Muslims, especially those from the West, to really know the beauty and depths of Islam. One can only view differences (of religion and culture) through the prisim of their own background, experiences and flexibility. Sometimes it takes a lifetime!

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 27, 2004 - 03:25 pm
    There was a question in my mind about how mosques and their upkeep are paid for. Is there tithing in Islam? I found this answer:
    Pillar 3 -- Zakat

    "One of the most important principles of Islam is that all things belong to God, and that wealth is therefore held by human beings in trust. The word zakat means both 'purification' and 'growth'. Our possessions are purified by setting aside a proportion for those in need, and, like the pruning of plants, this cutting back balances and encourages new growth.



    "Each Muslim calculates his or her own zakat individually. For most purposes this involves the payment each year of two and a half percent of one's capital."
    2 1/2% doesn't sound like much, but when I think of the poverty in Islamic countries in the Middle East, it seems like a fortune. Does this money pay for the running of the mosques?

    How are the mosques run? By committee?

    Mal

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 27, 2004 - 03:49 pm
    "The inevitable gap between theory and practice seems narrower in Islam than in other faiths.

    "The Arabs were sensual and the Koran accepted polygamy. Otherwise the ethic of the Koran is as sternly puritan as Cromwell's. Only the uninformed think of Mohammedanism as a morally easy creed.

    "The Arabs were prone to vengeance and retaliation and the Koran made no pretense at returning good for evil.

    'And one who attacks you, attack him in like manner. Whoso defendeth himself after he hath suffered wrong, there is no way' (of blame) 'against them' (ii,194; xlii,41).

    "It is a virile ethic, like that of the Old Testament. It stresses the masculine, as Christianity stressed the feminine, virtues. No other religion in history has so consistently tried to make men strong, or so generally succeeded. 'O ye who believe! Endure! Outdo all others in endurance!' (iii,200)

    "Thus also spake Nietzsche's Zarathustra."

    Robby

    Justin
    November 27, 2004 - 08:06 pm
    Mahlia: Help us to know the beauty and depth of Islam. I recognize fully that comparison may limit one's exposure to some central aspects of a religion, particularly, those aspects most useful to believers. The way a Muslim and a Muslima use the religion to support their way of life could be very beautiful and one would miss that, perhaps, by not being in the culture. But we can try to grasp what it is that believers get from Islam that makes it all worthwhile. I am not at all certain I can express that with Christianity, so I may be asking more than one can express clearly. Looking at the religion from outside one sees only the unpleasantness of some of the rules of submission. There must be more.

    Persian
    November 27, 2004 - 10:57 pm
    JUSTIN - indeed there is more to Islam. Let me share a few examples from personal experience. Although many aspects of the veiling of women, the submission of women to male authority, the total repression of women in Central Asia by the Taliban, including the lack of educational and professional opportunities, there are also aspects of Islamic society which Muslimas depend upon for their protection and dignity. NB: in each of the following examples, one could say "Yes, but, what about (insert one negative aspect that is counterproductive), but bear with me - ROBBY, here's your chance to try once again to slip into the "Eastern mindset."

    For example, Muslim women are generally modest in dress and behavior. Thus, they are uncomfortable in the West when in public to see non-Muslim women dressed in a sexually provocative way, thrusting their bodies into the face of or against the bodies of men who are total strangers. In a Muslim community, this would NOT happen. Men do NOT touch women publicly. Husbands do not generally walk hand-in-hand with their wives; wives tend to walk a step or two away from (yes, sometimes behind) their husbands. (Although in the past few years some young Persian men and women have become much more daring in public.)

    The knowledge that a Muslima has about going out in public and knowing that she is NOT going to be accosted - either physically or orally - by men who are total strangers to her is very reassuring.

    Muslim men also are careful about protecting women - known or unknown to them - in a public setting. By proteting, I mean helping them. For example, several years ago I was returning to my home in the metropolitan Washington DC area late at night. My flight was late and I needed a cab to take me about 35 miles to my home. When I went outside the airport, there were no taxis available. I waited for a while, became tired and asked the dispatcher to call a driver for me, but to be sure that he sent a Muslim driver. The dispatcher laughed at me, but an off-duty driver heard my request, came to within 10 feet of me and asked if I needed transportaion. He also asked if I was Muslim. When I responded, he said "Please wait, Sister, I will call my wife (who had come to pick him up at the airport) and she and I will drive you home." I protested that I lived too far away and he was alerady off-duty. The Muslim driver said "it is MY duty - and our pleasure." In about 10 minutes, his wife arrived and she and I climbed into the back seat, while the driver took his position behind the wheel. They drove me home, waited for me to enter my house and wave that I was inside and OK. Then they drove the more than 50 miles to their own home.

    Several years ago, my husband was returning to the USA from Egypt. He made a connecting flight in Europe and arrived at Baltimore, but refused to leave the airport. Instead, he and I sat with an elderly Persian Muslim woman (who had also been a passenger on my husband's flight), who was supposed to have been met by her son. The son did not arrive and when we reached him on his cell phone, his car had broken down enroute. We agreed to take the womam home with us, where we made up the guest room and she rested for several hours. She dined with us in the evening andit was not until after midnight that her son came to our home to pick up the lady. My husband would NOT have left her alone in the airport, regaardless of the time of day or night!

    Many years ago, in a rural village in Iran, I was "detained for questioning" by the local police authorities. Since I was American, I was assumed to be in an aera where I did not have permission to travel. When it became quite clear that I was related to people in the nearby village - and indeed that I was the great-grandaughter of a well liked and respected member of the village (then deceased), my American citizenship became less of an issue. Family ties, NOT citizenship, is the point of this example.

    From a family standpoint Islam, like Judaism, offers very specific rules and regulations about the "how to's" of life: marriage, raising a family, educating children, preparing teenagers for their eventual responsibilities of adulthood, instructing young men how to take care of the women in their families (which includes extended families, NOT just a sister or mother). Part of these laws protects women, their inheritances, income they earn from a job, and how to keep their money to themselves. Women are allowed to have independent income and they do not have to co-mingle their funds with that of their husbands, brothers, fathers or any other male relative. Of course, they certainly can if they want to, but there are very clear laws which protect them if they choose NOT to.

    One can depend upon the Laws - they do NOT change (just like the ancient Laws in Leviticus), even if some try to misinterpret and misrepresent them to meet their own agendas. It is VERY clear what is acceptable in Islam and what is NOT. There are also the laws regarding punishment or when one is disgraced. They are harsh by Western standards - absolutely no "turning the other cheek" - but they also prevent alot of crime or attacks upon innocents (EXCEPT by those who choose to interpret the Laws to suit themselves).

    The beauty of Islam to me (and others whom I've known throughout my life) is that there is the combination of religious, mystical, practical and instructional components which can be applied to everyday life, as well as to special events at certain times in life (birth, marriage, a special blessing of some kind, death, inheritance, etc.) There is a vast array of Islamic literature on many topics, which is like having access to a grand library; there is great drama as Islam developed in various world regions - carnage in times of war and humanity in times of peace; poetry and dreams; jinns and magnificent tales to be pondered over. There are the great historical figures in Islam, beginning with the Prophet Muhammad, but there are also rogues and wanders, poets and magicians - all attractive to children learning about their religious and cultural backgrounds. And for young Muslimas, there are some pretty special women in Islamic history to whom they can look up to.

    Try reading the Qur'an sometime - not necessarily as a religious text, but as a historical textbook. There are several editions in English. The one I recommend to non-Muslims who wish to learn about Islam is entitled THE HOLY QUR-AN: English translation of the meanings and Commentary (Revised and Edited by The President of the Islamic Researches, IFTA, Call and Guidance. The publisher is the King Fahd Holy Qur-an Printing Complex. The translation is by the late Ustadh ABDULLAH YUSUF ALI for its distinguishing characteristics, such as a highly elegant style, a choice of words close to the meaning of the original Arabic text, accompanied by extensive scholarly notes and commentaries, which are extremely interesting and useful to the non-Muslim.

    MAL - mosques are generally run by Boards of directors with responsibilities for various aspects of the administrative (operations, physical plant, building renovation) educational and religious sectors of the mosque. Financial support for the operations of a mosque come from the memebrs; those with more wealth give larger portions to the upkeep of the mosque, as well as their personal zakat each year during Ramadan. Special donations are requested for special needs (i.e. renovation, opening a new school or nursery, special needs for seniors or disabled). The Boards are responsible to the full membership of the mosque and there are often very heated meetings and discussions about various aspects in the operational oversight.

    winsum
    November 27, 2004 - 11:33 pm
    each of us has a pet peeve. what is the most immoral act any of you might think of. , . say what?

    winsum
    November 27, 2004 - 11:42 pm
    are run similarily as business. this condo I bought has introduced me to big brother who limits what I can do with my property and arbritrarily requires more money from me if it is needed for the greater good and use. Fifteen of the ninety nine units turned out to have black nould and the city health department required that they be renovated. all of us shared in the financial drain. I'd just moved in and there was this special assesment of twenty three thousand seven humdred dollars each that is EACH. the for sale signs are sprouting. young families can't afford to live in this "mosque" itreminds me of the cult groups coop living situations in the sixties. . . . . claire

    Justin
    November 28, 2004 - 12:17 am
    My copy of the Koran, which I have been reading, is a translation by N.J. Dawood. It is the Penguin Classics edition.

    I think you are telling me that submission ( and deprivation) in exchange for protection (however limited), is a good deal for a woman. I like the idea of training boys in their responsibilities toward women. I was taught to protect my sister at all times and to be respectful to my mother. It was my father's responsibility to provide and I learned that it would be my responsility to provide for a wife and family when I married. No excuses. That's a husband's job. I learned that men do not strike women no matter how angry you may be. Reason is always used. Those dictums left me a little naive for when I found men who could not be trusted to protect women, I was disillusioned.

    You of course were not talking about just one's family but protection of women in general by men. I have to be realistic. Chrivalry is not dead but it is on life support.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 28, 2004 - 05:57 am
    Mahlia:-Thank you for taking so much time to write out those detailed posts. I printed out the last one and have read it a number of times. When you give such examples as the Muslim taxi driver at the airport or the elderly Persian Muslim woman who was alone when her son's car broke down, and the resulting Islamic hospitality by you and your husband and the resulting hospitality by the taxi driver, I kept thinking to myself:- "That would also be so if the taxi driver or you and your husband were TRULY Christian or Jewish and TRULY practiced your religion."

    What I see here are religious/moral aspects of life, not necessarily Islamic ones. The Boy Scouts of America is not a religious movement (although there are some who say it is) but it has a definite moral thread running through it. For those who may have forgotten it or perhaps never knew it, the Scout Oath says:-"On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country, to obey the Scout Law, and to keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight." The twelve points of the Scout Law are:-"A Scout is trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent." (Yes, I wrote all that out from memory.) A common expression in Scouting is "Once a Scout, always a Scout."

    I was a Boy Scout, then later an Assistant Scoutmaster and a Scoutmaster, and then for 13 years (1950-63) a career Scout Executive. As an Executive, I took the 45-day Basic Training Course and then constant additional training throughout my career. I was expected to live the beliefs of the movement. I had no problem with this as I truly believed them. In those days (no longer so I am afraid) a Scout Executive was looked upon much as one looks upon a clergyman. As soon as I identified myself, I was welcomed and looked upon warmly wherever I went, whether in business or social circles. And it never occurred to me to break this trust that everyone was showing me.

    There were at that time hundreds of thousands of adult Scouters and a million Boy Scouts. There were only about 3,000 Scout Executives. When an Executive and his family traveled across the nation on a vacation, he and his family was often welcomed in the home of another miles away although they had never met personally. In 1975 while I was taking my doctorate and had long since retired from being an Executive, to earn some money I took a summer job as a volunteer commissioner at a Scout Camp. My wife and I, like the other senior staff members, lived in a cabin because we were there all summer, not just a week or so. On one occasion a number of Scouts came back late one night drenched from a cold torrential rain. They needed a place to dry out and have a hot drink and then a warm place to sleep. I suggested to the Executives running the camp at the time that we all open our cabins to them. They would have no part of it. (That's how much the moral fiber of the movement had changed from 1950 to 1975.) I was so ashamed but my wife and I did open ours and felt good about it.

    Mahlia, Is what you have described not necessarily an Islamic belief but what something inside ourselves tells us that we all should be whether Christian, Jewish, agnostic, Taoist, Buddhist, Shinto, or atheist?

    I just went to my home library and dug out a book I bought decades ago and have never read. This is just one of scores I have which I will get to read before I am 100 and if you guys will ever let me alone. It is not the Koran. It is entitled The Koran Interpreted by A.J. Arberry. A testimonial on the cover by Wilfred Cantwell Smith of Harvard University says:-"Certainly the most beautiful English version, and among those by non-Muslim translators the one that comes closest to conveying the impression made on Muslims by the original."

    I am trying to get into the Eastern mindset, Mahlia!!

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 28, 2004 - 06:12 am
    I live in a rural area of Virginia -- what some call the Bible Belt. All my neighbors are farmers or people connected to the land in one way or another. Practically all of them are Southern Baptists, very strong believers who never miss a Sunday at church and who, in some families, send their children to Christian schools.

    On at least three occasions in the last 10 years since I bought the house, I have woken up in the morning to hear the sound of an engine outside, and looked out to see my neighbor plowing my driveway. And he does a darn good job of it! As I go out in the freezing weather and offer to pay, he always waves me away and drives off.

    A number of months ago a heavy wind storm took the gutter at the front of the house and bent half of it up across the roof. And there it has sat because I don't have the money right now to do anything about it. Last week I drove home from work and noticed it was not lying across the roof. Upon further examination I find that a new gutter has been installed. I have a hunch that one of my neighbors who has been doing repair work at a nearby house did the job. I haven't been able to get to him yet but if it is he, I just know that he will act in the same Christian way that my other neighbor does.

    These are fundamentalists with strong beliefs yet in the 10 years I have been here have never tried to get me to join their church. They have no idea what my beliefs are but I sure know theirs and I respect them.

    Mahlia, substitute the word Muslim in my stories above. Isn't this all the same?

    Robby

    Bubble
    November 28, 2004 - 06:27 am
    The scout motto: "Toujours pret", always ready.

    Mahlia's post reminded me of the fellowship we felt when we arrived in this country and also after the 6 Day War. I remember that one day, I had been shopping for my mother and was driving to her flat when I saw a young man hippie-looking with his backpack and sleeping bag, map in hand, turning helpelessly in all directions, looking where North could be. I stopped next to him and asked if I could help. He was looking for the street where my mom lived, so I told him to hop in the car since I was going into that direction. The building he wanted was the one toward which I was heading! You guessed it, he was going to visit her. He had received her address from relatives in South Africa and was going to ask hospitality. He was well received of course even though we had never met him.

    My dad was forever stopping in the street when he saw some tired lady or an old man carrying full shopping bags and walking slowly in the sun. He always asked them to enter the car and was driving them home. There are so many instances and nice anecdotes about it in the family and we are not outstanding by far.

    When we had that terrible suicide bomber in an hotel on Passover night and the people run in terror everywhere, we took in a whole family in, cleaned the wounds from broken glass, gave a complete change of clothes to the nine or ten of them and offered them a meal and help to contact all their other family members.

    All this has nothing to do with religion - I think. It is just striving to be a mensch.

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 28, 2004 - 08:32 am

    Kindness, one human being to another, is not dependent on religious faith or membership in an organization.

    As a handicapped person alone in cities in the United States and in Europe, I have been offered kindness and help by strangers of various races and ethnic backgrounds, whose names and beliefs I will never know.

    Two or the places where help was readily offered are Paris, France and New York City, making a lie of myths I'd heard about the coldness and the lack of care of the residents of those cities.

    By the same token, I have helped people in need as best I could. It's just something many of us do.

    The fact of kindness and consideration, one Muslim to another, isn't enough to convince me that there is ample compensation in Islam for the subjugation of women and harsh punishment of non-believers.

    Mal

    Traude S
    November 28, 2004 - 08:48 am
    Since I burned the midnight oil to read the last posts, carefully and with great interests, I have no backlog to worry over.

    Thank you for the links, ROBBY, and all the background information, MAHLIA.

    Reading Mr. Bernstein's NYT article, linked in your # 952, I came across a factual error : Heidelberg is situated on the banks of the picturesque river NECKAR, a tributary to the Rhine, NOT the Rhine. It is my alma mater.

    Here is a link; please see par. 3, "The Neckar valley ..."

    http://www.wguides.com/city/141

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 28, 2004 - 09:30 am
    Bubble mentions the Scouting motto "Toujours Pret" which, as English speaking Scouts say it, "Be Prepared." Scouting also has a slogan -- "Do a Good Turn Daily." Isn't that exactly what Mahlia and her acquaintances were doing? Mahlia, when you were doing those nice deeds, were you doing them as a Muslima or as a "good" person (which I realize is not necessarily mutually exclusive)?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 28, 2004 - 09:36 am
    Those participants here who watched the division of the Roman Empire into two empires may be interested in this ARTICLE in this morning's NY Times.

    Robby

    winsum
    November 28, 2004 - 10:01 am
    are stitll in the works. I had a neighbor a kind of PECKS BAD BOY who initially fought with me and then decided to take care of me. that was twenty years ago. He's a general contractor. sometimes I hire him and pay him but but he will barely charge me for that and sometimes as in the last he won't take money at all. I've moved since then and so has he but a telephone call will bring him here within a day or so.

    This time he changed the battery in my furnace thermostat and accepted a pot for his mother. He's almost fifty now and not so bad anymore. . . spent a short time in jail for DEALING in drugs. beat up his wife who left him, adores his son and takes care of old ladies. Its an odd mix. He's odd and quite wonderful . . . .and not at all religious

    Claire

    winsum
    November 28, 2004 - 11:23 am
    that came my way so long ago I didn't have my daughter yet but was in a mother mode with son. I met an old lady outside my aparrtment, barefooted and wandering. She had a wrist band on so I took her home. she'd walked about seven miles already in her bare feet, an alshieimers patent at ucla.

    It didn't take long for them to come and get her once I'd called. She was a very pleasant person, not a problem to take her in, but her feet were a mess and there wasn't much I could do about that. .

    It was a natural thing to do. I think anyone would have.

    Others have taken in my wandering dog and paid herr vet bills. I'd found her through the vet when I searched. she'd been in their tiny yard shared with their two dogs for three days recovering from being hit by a car. . . people are helpful when it's required. . . we all have such stories I'm sure along with the war stories. It's still a pretty good world. . . . claire

    Persian
    November 28, 2004 - 11:43 am
    ROBBY - here is a link with some interesting information from A. J. Arberry about what he was trying to convety in his interpretation of the Qur'an.

    http://www.msgr.ca/msgr-2/Koran%20-%20Nativity%20-%2007.htm

    In response to your question about how were my husband and I acting in helpilng the elderly Persian lady, it was from simply recognizing that she needed help, did not speak English, did not know what had delayed her son from being at the airport to meet her and because many, many people throughout our lifetimes have offered assistance to us. And although I did not ask him directly, the Msulim taxi driver perhaps was responding to my need for transportation in the same way. But since he called his wife to help out, rather than just contacting another taxi driver, I suspect that there was an element of a Muslim assisting a Muslima and in such a way (by asking his wife to join him) that I would feel comfortable.

    And just as an aside, ALL of my male cousins in the USA have been Eagle Scouts. My grandson is now working mightilyl towards that goal. One of the finest university administrators I ever worked with at the University of Maryland was a lifelong Scout, Scout Master, and subsequently executive with the Boy Scouts. And he practiced every day the qualities of a good scout. Those of us who worked closely with him appreciated this quality so very much.

    MAL - of course there is no acceptable reason for a woman or man, child or elderly individual to be subjected to mistreatment. Yet, unfortunately, as long as there are humans in the world, that type of behavior will continue. Traditions die hard; cultural familiarity (like the genital mutilitation of young girls in Africa - and now among Africans in the USA and Europe) is hard to overcome. Yet recognition of the fact that NOT all Muslims act the same way (or for the same reason) is important.

    Many years ago, I was horseback riding in a rural area of Western Iran, where several Azerbaijan villages were located. I came upon a man and his wife in an argument. The woman was heavily pregnant and had been slapped to the ground and when I arrived, the man was kicking her. I horsewhipped him severely untill he ran away. Then I took my saddle off the horse, spread the blanket and helped the woman to crawl onto the horse (sidesaddle, of course, and led her slowly to my great-grandfather's nearby village. When the men (many of whom were cousins of mine realized what had happened, they went out in a shouting match to find the man who had beaten his wife. They found him, brought him back to the village and locked him up in a shed. Then they sent a message to his own family and told them to come and get him. However, during the night, several of the village women went to the shed and beat the man again - just for good measure. (Azeri women have extremely hot tempers and do not suffer abuse easily. They are known for these characteristics among the Persians.)

    The pregnant woman delivered a still-born child while I was still in the village and the entire village mourned with her, but determined it was "God's will." Subsequently, she obtained a divorce from her abusive husand, remained in the Azeri village and later married a man of that village. Today she is the proud (and healthy) mother of 5 sons. I am NOT proud that I used a whip on the man, but I could not have stood by and watched him savage his wife.

    BUBBLE - isn't it great to realize that although there are many differences among people around the world, there are also many similarities - hospitality and friendliness being two of the most important.

    moxiect
    November 28, 2004 - 01:01 pm


    Render unto Ceasar that which is Ceasars and unto God that which is God.

    Render unto Muhammed that which is Muhammed and unto Allah that which is Allah.

    This is what I have learned from reading all the posts!

    There are good caring people willing to help anyone and there are uncaring evil power hungry people who abuse religion, politics and economics for their own personal gain.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 28, 2004 - 01:09 pm
    Let us continue with Durant:-

    "Revered to the edge of idolatry -- copied and illuminated with loving skill and care -- used as the book from which the Moslem learned to read -- and then again as the core and summit of his education -- the Koran has for thirteen centuries filled the memory, aroused the imagination, molded the character, and perhaps chilled the intellect, of hundreds of millions of men.

    "It gave to simple souls the simplest, least mystical, least ritualistic, of all creeds -- free from idolatry and sacerdotalism. Its message raised the moral and cultural level of its followers -- promoted social order and unity -- inculcated hygiene -- lessened superstition and cruelty -- bettered the condition of slaves -- lifted the lowly to dignity and pride -- and produced among Moslems (barring the revels of some caliphs) a degree of sobriety and temperance unequaled elsewhere in the white man's world.

    "It gave men an uncomplaining acceptance of the hardships and limitations of life, and at the same time stimulated them to the most astonishing expansion in history. And it defined religion in terms tht any orthodox Christian or Jew might accept:-

    'Righteousness is not that ye turn your faces to the East or to the West, but righteousness is this:-whosoever believeth in God, and the Last Day, and the angels, and the Book, and the Prophets, and whosoever, for the love of God, giveth of his wealth unto his kindred, unto orphans, and the poor, and the wayfarer, and to the beggar, and for the release of captives, and whoso observeth prayer and, when they have covenanted, fulfill their covenant, and who are patient in adversity and hardship and in the times of violence -- these are the righteous, these are they who believe in the Lord!' (ii,177).

    "The Koran produced a degree of sobriety and temperance unequaled elsewhere in the white man's world."

    "The Koran stimulated men to the most astonishing expansion in history."

    These are powerful statements!!

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 28, 2004 - 01:44 pm
    Please read this ARTICLE (in its entirety if you would please) and then tell me what it represents. Is it religion in action? God in action? Christianity in action? Judaism? Islam? Moral action? Just what is it?

    Robby

    Bubble
    November 28, 2004 - 02:55 pm
    A brilliant idea and some strong willed volunteers to make it work. Not religion of any sort, but the satisfaction of those giving their time and knowledge to know that they made a difference for these kids and improved totally they outlook for the future. The fortunate fact is that those who came up with the idea are not doing it for their personal glory or for materialistic reasons.

    moxiect
    November 28, 2004 - 03:45 pm
    Robby,

    Post 979, I read the entire article what it represents to me is that someone found a way to reach as many children as they could to help overcome whatever the educational problem was. It didn't matter to the person who started it about race, religion mainly someone CARED.

    Persian
    November 28, 2004 - 05:13 pm
    An excellent example that someone TRULY cared about others and then acted on that feeling!

    kiwi lady
    November 28, 2004 - 06:19 pm
    If everyone on this earth truly practised their religions we would not have war, hunger or homelessness. If we read the New Testament and the Koran we can see this clearly.

    I was turned off organised religion when my husband and I took a group of brown skinned street kids to church one night. You should have seen the looks we got. Around about the same time my husband wanted to open a drop in centre in an empty house the church owned for these kids and others. We were told we could not have it because it might get wrecked. We left the church soon after.

    Unfortunately man has used religion often for his own ends - to gain power over others, totally against the teachings of his faith.

    This is what fundamentalists on both sides of the coin both Christian and Muslim have done. Cruelty and killing in the name of religion sickens me.

    Carolyn

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    November 28, 2004 - 06:51 pm
    Wonderful posts everyone. I keep nodding my head.

    Traude S
    November 28, 2004 - 07:03 pm


    Humanity in action.

    Justin
    November 28, 2004 - 07:25 pm
    The Nativity schools have little to do with religion. The heros of the story are the teachers who find personal satisfaction in helping those unable to help themselves. It is the reason some teacher's teach. There are those who put out the material and walk away but good teachers, those who are interested in pupils, those who show love as well as subject matter to a child, prompt a response that includes a desire to learn and confidence in ability. That is worth all the effort.

    Sometimes that happens in the public school system, but when it does it is very often the product of a single teacher. Rarely, is it the result of an entire school participating , as in the case of Nativity. If a religious organization is responsible for promoting these successful schools, I applaud it.

    Traude S
    November 28, 2004 - 08:54 pm
    JUSTIN, I couldn't agree more.

    Fifi le Beau
    November 28, 2004 - 10:26 pm
    Durant writes.....

    "Every able-bodied male in Islam must join in the holy war. 'Lo, Allah loveth those who battle for His cause. I swear by Allah that marching about, morning and evening, to fight for religion is better than the world and everything in it. And verily the standing of one of you in the line of battle is better than supererogatory prayers performed in your house for sixty years.'

    Mohammed uses these words to motivate men to kill and fight for territory that he needs at the moment, namely Mecca. Since most of his followers were from Mecca, it would seem difficult to get men motivated to go kill their own kin and neighbors. He cleverly tells them his god wants them to do this, and that killing is better than spirituality any day, even sixty years worth.

    War lord or prophet?

    Fifi

    Justin
    November 28, 2004 - 11:03 pm
    FiFi. Can you not hear the God the Hebrews telling them to take the land across the Jordan in the same way Mohammad told his followers to take Mecca. "Go and conquer, me hearties." God said it's right and proper to take what is rightfully yours especially when your sword is stronger than their plowshares.

    How can the world hope to achieve peace when the Gods of Islam, Israel, and Christianity, all, exhort one to warfare?

    On the one hand it is a way to adjust for the Malthusian doctrines. On the other hand, we could end civilization as we know it.

    Now that we know what these religions are up to we can not become mushy eyed by what we would like them to be. They must be relegated to the dust bin. Some one earlier said in response to Mahlia's comments about the cab driver, "That's what being a good Christian or a good Muslim is all about. But it's not what they are about. We'd like the practitioner's of all three religions to be good people who have concern for others. Unfortunately, they are not. They are in the main greedy, self centered people, who follow their God who leads them to battle against the unbelievers of the world. Onward Christian Soldiers. Onward, against the non-idolatrous.

    Each wants his God in the ascendancy but some of these folks think the way to achieve peace is to declare the Gods of all three the same God- The God of Abraham but they are reversing streams. It won't happen. Worse, if they are successful in selling that idea, they would next turn their might on the small groups of non-abrahamics.

    kiwi lady
    November 28, 2004 - 11:28 pm
    I do not see the teachings of the New Testament condoning war. We are not supposed to live in the old Testament but in the teaching of the New Testament which teaches tolerance and love for ones fellow man. I cannot understand any practising Christian who would lead a nation in a pre-emptive strike. Its not my idea of Christianity. Neither do I understand the Muslim fundamentalist terrorists.

    Justin
    November 29, 2004 - 12:18 am
    Kiwi: The Hebrew God of the old Testament is the God of Jesus, The Father.It is not possible to have one and not the other. Not unless you are prepared to deny the heritage and the Abrahamic connection.

    I can imagine a practicing Christian calling for a preemptive strike. There have been so many. It is hard for me to imagine an American President calling for a preemptive strike. We saw it in Viet Namn and now in Iraq. I am not happy with that.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 29, 2004 - 04:14 am
    The Sources of the Koran

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 29, 2004 - 04:28 am
    "As the style of the Koran is modeled on that of the Hebrew prophets, so its contents are largely an adaptation of Judaic doctrines, tales, and themes.

    "The Koran, which excoriates the Jews, is the sincerest flattery they have ever received. Its basic ideas -- monotheism, prophecy, faith, repentance, the Last Judgment, heaven and hell -- seem Jewish in proximate origin, even in form and dress. It deviated from Judaism chiefly in insisting that the Messiah had come.

    "Mohammed frankly reports contemporary accusations that his revelations were 'nothing but a fraud which he hath fabricated, and other people have helped him there, dictating to him morning and evening' (xxv,5; xvi,105).

    "He generously accepts the Hebrew and Christian Scriptures as divinely revealed (iii,48). God has given man 104 revelations, of which only four have been preserved -- the Pentateuch to Moses, the Psalms to David, the Gospel to Jesus, the Koran to Mohammed. Whoso rejects any one of these is, in Mohammed's view, an infidel.

    "But the first three have suffered such corruption that they can no longer be trusted and the Koran now replaces them. There have been many inspired prophets -- e.g. Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Enoch, Christ, but last and greatest, Mohammed.

    "From Adam to Christ Mohammed accepts all the narratives of the Bible, but occasionally amends them to save the divine honor. So God did not really let Jesus die on the cross (iv,157).

    "The Prophet alleges the agreement of the Koran with the Bible as proof of his divine mission and interprets various Biblical passages as predicting his own birth, and apostolate."

    Robby

    kiwi lady
    November 29, 2004 - 11:53 am
    Justin what I meant regarding the old Testament is that with the coming of Jesus we were freed from the law etc. Also that we should not confuse historical narrative with divine instruction. Much of the Old Testament is historical narrative except for the last few books of Biblical Prophecy.

    Scrawler
    November 29, 2004 - 12:35 pm
    I believe the "Good Seed" is planted in all of us before birth. At the moment of birth, we begin to observe what is around us and depending on what we see, that is what makes us bad or good.

    winsum
    November 29, 2004 - 01:04 pm
    and it's anticedents not my bag. seeya all later. claire

    Justin
    November 29, 2004 - 03:15 pm
    Kiwi: Jesus adhered to the law in every respect. It was Paul who broke away from the law because circumcision and eating restrictions inhibited his proselytizing among the gentiles. Describing the Old Testament as historical narrative rather than divine instruction seems to me a convenience for overlooking what may be inconvenient in the Bible.

    It's interesting that so much of the Bible is reflected in the Qu'ran and that Mohammad not only recognized that but used it as an endorsement of the holiness of the Qu'ran. He went further. He found elements in the Biblical text foretelling his coming.

    We know Mohammad created parts of the text of the Qu'ran to satisfy his own personal needs. I don't find that practice exceptional. Several Christian preachers, I have heard, use the text of the Bible for their own personal needs. Some even invent text to fit their needs.

    kiwi lady
    November 29, 2004 - 06:30 pm
    Justin - I beg to disagree and could quote much to support my belief but this is not the place to do it.

    Carolyn

    Persian
    November 29, 2004 - 07:12 pm
    It's interesting to observe how the leadership in the major religions use scripture for their own needs. For example, the following link is an article entitled "Left Behind by Apocalypse (Almost) Now" (Nicholas D. Kristof, NY Tmes, Nov. 29, 2004), illustrating how the Christian "Left Behind" book series by Tim LaHaye nad Jerry Jenkins has expanded to a "financial empire."

    http://www.charlotte.com/mld/observer/news/opinion/10292751.htm

    In Islam, we've already witnessed (tragically) how enormous sums of financial support from wealthy Muslims continue to find their way to Al Qaida operatives; religious schools focus on the hatred on non-Muslims, creating another generation of jihadists; and even in countries which superficially work to establish relations with the USA - specifically Iran and their recent pseudo-commitment to non-nuclear research - the government officials who could strive to decrease terrorist activities either actively supportit or "look the other way" while potential female jihadists are recruited and trained "to attack the USA."

    http://www.charlotte.com/mld/observer/news/10292678.htm

    All this - and more - in God's name?

    3kings
    November 29, 2004 - 07:39 pm
    JUSTIN The God of the new Testament is a God of love and forgiveness. The God of the old testament is a God of vengeance. It is this fracture in religious belief that led the Jews to have Christ crucified.

    I don't agree with your statement that "The Hebrew God of the old Testament is the God of Jesus, The Father."

    True, Jesus never said to the Jewish Churchmen " Verily I say unto you, your God is not my God." But he did say what amounts to the same thing " Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will found MY Church."

    We have earlier discussed here, how Paul usurped Peter's roll, and how Christianity thus far has never achieved its high hopes. I believe there is a spark in all of us that hopes that somehow, someday it will, but for now..... === Trevor

    Traude S
    November 29, 2004 - 08:37 pm
    MAHLIA, it appears that "an account must be created" before the two links in your last post can be accessed. I haven't done that yet. But I am familiar with Nicholas Kristof's columns from the NYT.

    Thank you.

    Justin
    November 29, 2004 - 10:52 pm
    Trevor: Are you forgetting that Jesus was a Jew, through and through, to the very end? He was never a Christian.We tend to forget that the Last Supper was a celebration of Passover. Thirty to forty years after his death, it was Paul who created Christianity. Jesus' intent was to inform his fellow Jews of the coming of the Last Judgement and the need to treat others as one wishes to be treated. He died a Jew referring to "the Father," the lord of Jehovah and as a Jew he knew no other God. He certainly did not deny the Father.

    There is not much love in Jesus when he tells his deciples to leave home and family and follow him. Was it a peaceful eviction when he removed the money lenders from the Temple?

    I don't know whether Mohammad had a person comparable to Paul to give Islam the same kind of boost. Perhaps his secretary or the person assigned by the Caliphate to edit the collected works of Mohammad.

    Mahlia: I agree. I think the viper is in our midst and we are not looking for him.

    3kings
    November 29, 2004 - 11:53 pm
    JUSTIN. Christ was never a Christ - ian ? Sounds like saying George Washington was never an American patriot.

    In some regards, I think you could label Paul a non Christian, but Christ ? Paul created a Church, but I don't think he enhanced the philosophic teachings of Christ.

    What is un-Christian in the request to Matthew the publican, "Give what though hast to the poor, and come and follow me."? Sounds a reasonable request to one who would be His follower. Note he did not say "Give what thou hast to me, " but directed the cash to those in need. ++ Trevor

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    November 30, 2004 - 12:50 am
    Robby's computer has a virus I was told, so be good out there while he is off.

    Justin
    November 30, 2004 - 12:54 am
    Trevor: I am amazed that I am hearing this from you after all we have been through in Volume 111 called Caesar and Christ. What I have been saying in these past few posts is pure Durant.

    Bubble
    November 30, 2004 - 01:11 am
    Robby's puter has the flu? Good uck Robby!

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 30, 2004 - 04:24 am
    "From the Creation to the Last Judgment, Mohammed uses Jewish ideas. Allah is a Yahveh. Allah is a contraction of al-llah, an old Kaaba god. A kindred word was used in various forms in diverse Semitic languages to express divinity. So the Jews used Elohim and Christ on the cross appealed to Eli.

    "Both Allah and Yahveh are gods of compsssion but they are also stern and warlike deities, capable of many human passions and resolved to have no other god besides them.

    "The Shema' Yisrael of the Jewish ritual, affirming the unity of God, is repeated in the first article of Moslem belief:-'There is no god but Allah.' The Koranic refrain that Allah is 'gracious and compassionate' echoes the same frequent phrase in the Talmud.

    "The designation of Allah as Rahman, the merciful, recalls the rabbinical use of Rahmana for Yahveh in the Talmudic age. The Talmud loves to say:-'The Holy One, Blessed be He.' Moslem literature follows with the oft-repeated words:-'Allah' (or 'Mohammed'), "Blessed be He.

    "Apparently the Jews who acquainted the Prophet with the Bible also gave him snatches of the Talmud. A hundred passages in the Koran echo the Mishna and the Gemaras.

    "The teachings of the Koran about angels, the resurrection, and heaven follow the Talmud rather than the Old Testament. Stories that make up a fourth of the Koran can be traced to haggadic (illustrative) elements in the Talmud.

    "Where the Koran narratives vary from the Biblical accounts (as in the story of Joseph) they usually accord with the variations already existing in the haggadic literature of the pre-Moslem Jews."

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 30, 2004 - 06:55 am
    You boys stop arguing and go out and play ball or something. ROBBY has asked me to step in and post from The Age of Faith if his computer continues to give him problems, and you know Mistress Mal doesn't put up with any nonsense.

    Have a good day, everyone.

    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 30, 2004 - 07:10 am
    I see that we're at 1009 messages now. That means that a new meeting room will be set up for us soon.

    Don't forget to subcribe when that happens!
    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 30, 2004 - 07:28 am
    Here's an interesting article about "What is a true evangelical?"

    Who is John Stott?

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 30, 2004 - 07:37 am
    If any of you are interested in making some comparisons between the Koran and the Talmud, here's a link to the Talmud online.

    TALMUD

    Persian
    November 30, 2004 - 10:44 am
    Since we hear alot about Muslims who have used their faith for their own greed, here's a link to an article about one man who wants to share his training and education by helping Iraqis rebuild. It is heartening to note, as the article states, that there are many like him - NOt all Muslims, of course, but individuals who truly give of themselves, often in the face of grave danger.

    http://www.charlotte.com/mld/observer/news/local/10300324.htm

    Fifi le Beau
    November 30, 2004 - 02:23 pm
    Meanwhile the lights are out in 99.9% of Afghanistan, but new banks are open in Kabul. All that drug (heroin) money has to go somewhere, and how convenient to have a connection to customs.

    The American taxpayer is paying for it all.

    Fifi

    3kings
    November 30, 2004 - 03:20 pm
    JUSTIN We must be reading different versions of the same book ! LOL

    Anyhow, I know you will keep saying your piece, which makes you, and others here so fascinating to read. Regards. Trevor

    Justin
    November 30, 2004 - 03:54 pm
    Trevor: We're just not on the same page. Try Robby's quote in Post 1007. The first paragraph ends with a reference to Jesus' appeal to Eli-the God of the Jews.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 30, 2004 - 04:52 pm
    "From the Mishna and halakah -- the oral law of the Jews -- Mohammed seems to have derived many elements of ritual, even minute details of diet and hygiene. Ceremonial purification before prayer is enjoined, and the hands my be washed with sand if no water can be had -- precisely the rabbinical formula.

    "The Jewish institution of the Sabbath pleased Mohammed. He adopted it with a distinction in making Friday a day of prayer for the Moslems. The Koran, like the Mosaic Law, forbids the eating of blood -- or the flesh of swine or dogs -- or of any animal that has died of itself -- or has been killed by another animal -- or has been orfered to an idol (v,3; vi, 146).

    "The Koran, however, allows the eating of camel's flesh, which Moses forbade, but which was sometimes the only flesh food available in the desert. The Moslem method of fasting followed the Hebrew model.

    "The Jews were bidden by their rabbis to pray thrice daily, facing toward Jerusalem and the Temple, and to prostrate themselves with forehad to the ground. Mohammd adapted these rules to Islam.

    "The first chapter of the Koran, which is the basic prayer of Islam, is essentially Judaic. The lovely greeting of the Hebrew -- Sholom aleichem -- parallels the noble 'Peace be with you' of Islam.

    "Finally, the Talmudic heaven, like the Koranic paradise, is one of frankly physical, as well as ecstatically spiritual, delights.

    Any comments on the similarity of Islamic and Judaic rituals?

    Robby

    Justin
    November 30, 2004 - 07:18 pm
    The Jews had something that everyone wanted. They let it lie around loose so some folks liberated it without asking. Why not? It was there for the taking. So, the Christians took it and the Muslims took it. Did any of these folks say, "thanks." No chance. They claimed they invented the idea themselves. Worse, the God Yahwey or Eli is now looked upon as second rate. The Christians have "God the Father" and the Muslims have Allah.

    Fifi le Beau
    November 30, 2004 - 07:30 pm
    It is evident that the Koran was taken from the Jewish writings and oral laws as well as the 'tales'. The Jews accused him of plagarism, and getting a lot of things wrong in the process. That could be the case of 'A little learning is a dangerous thing'.

    Durant writes, "The Koran, which excoriates the Jews I thought the use of the word 'excoriates' to be telling in that it means to 'skin'. It seems Mohammed did skin the Jews, and draped their hide over himself like a cloak, and then proceeded to censure them scathingly.

    Why would God bother to give Mohammed the same laws, prophets, and words that he had already given the Jews? Especially since those were already written down and familiar to the area.

    Do gods get senile after a few billion years?

    Fifi

    Fifi le Beau
    November 30, 2004 - 08:06 pm
    I have been reading from Mals link to the Talmud. I found myself in Chapter 1 on regulation regarding transfer of the Sabbath. Mishna 1 is short and lays out the regulation. The Gemara follows and seems to go on forever, and I haven't finished it all.

    I do believe the Jewish writer who said the Jews should have welcomed and brought Mohammed into the tent when he wanted to be recognized as the Messiah. They could have put him to work on this problem and others like it and he would have been dead before they decided the answer.

    I will give a link to the Mishna which is short, and ask that others read it and see if it is as confusing to you as to me. Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill.

    Keep the Sabbath Holy

    Fifi

    Persian
    November 30, 2004 - 08:09 pm
    Why would God bother to give Mohammed the same laws, prophets, and words that he had already given the Jews?

    From the Muslims' standpoint, FIFI, the answer is that since the Jews and Christians turned away from God, He allowed one more Prophet (Muhammad) to come forth. Also, from the Muslims' view, the earlier Prophets (including Jesus) continued to be respected. Hope this helps to answer your question above.

    JoanK
    November 30, 2004 - 08:29 pm
    Am I the only one that feels that we are getting away from what we are trying to do here? I personally an agnostic -- I don't believe any of these religions. But so what? -- I didn't think the point was to decide whether we all wanted to convert to another religion. I thought the point was to understand another people, and how that people's beliefs and culture have and will influence history. It doesn't seem to me we are accomplishing this. Or even getting anywhere close.

    I also feel we are losing our basic commitment of respect for other people's beliefs. I marvel at Mahlia's courtesy in the face of some less than courteous comments.

    moxiect
    November 30, 2004 - 08:47 pm


    I am still here and learning. I enjoy everyone's integrity! One thought I still hold to is 'Man's interpretation of any religion is still Mans.' Understanding the viewpoint of past civilization helps me to understand the present and hope for the best in the future.

    Question is, How many leaders pay attention to past errors so as not to repeat them in the present whether in religion, economics and politics?

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 30, 2004 - 09:20 pm
    Well, I don't know, but it seems to me we've given equal time pro and con to all the religions (and no religion at all) that we've discussed since we opened the first page of Our Oriental Heritage way back when, and I don't see much of any difference now. It's all a matter of interpretation, I guess.

    Mal

    Justin
    November 30, 2004 - 10:52 pm
    Our intent here is not to proseletize but to understand the religion of the Muslims so we can better assess their impact upon civilization. But that does not mean that the language of theology must be used in grasping the message. Much of religion is accepted because it is expressed in the language of mysticism.I acknowledge the treatment often seems irreverent. But irreverence simply means that one uses the vernacular rather than the mystical to describe dogma. If I get carried away, as I sometimes do, Mahlia is quite skilled in calming the waters. Robby is constantly warning us that lurkers may be hurt by irreverent language. The objective, however, is to reach message clarity and with that,understanding.

    Bubble
    December 1, 2004 - 01:20 am
    Empathy with Joan's post. I did feel uneasy with some of the late posts, as if we do not try to analyse Islam but for pointing out the negative aspects of it. Maybe it is natural with our actual background in politics and what is happening in the world. It is hard to stay unbiaised.

    Fifi, now you know what pilpul is! those in the yeshiva spend hours, days and weeks discussing like that all the small points of the laws and trying to cover every single deviations or possibilities. No wonder so many have an analytic turn of mind.

    robert b. iadeluca
    December 1, 2004 - 04:30 am
    We still have a long way to go in Durant's book trying to understand Islam. As has been said, "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing." Let patience and open-mindedness be the watch words as we continue.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    December 1, 2004 - 04:40 am
    "Some of these elements in creed and practice may have been a common heritage of the Semites. Some of them -- angels, devils, Satan, heaven, hell, the resurrection, the Last Judgment -- had been taken by the Jews from Babylonia or Persia, and may have gone directly from Persia to Islam.

    "In Zoroastrian, as in Mohammedan, eschatology, the resurrected dead must walk upon a perious bridge over a deep abyss. The wicked fall into hell, the good pass into a paradise where they enjoy, among other dainties, the society of women (houris), whose beauty and ardor will last forever.

    "To Jewish theology, ethics, and ritual, and Persian eschatology, Mohammed added Arab demonology, pilgrimage, and the Kaaba ceremony, and made Islam.

    "His debt to Christianity was slighter. If we may judge from the Koran, he knew Christianity very imperfectly, its Scriptures only at second hand, its theology chiefly in Persian Nestorian form. His earnest preaching of repentance in fear of the coming Judgment has a Christian tinge.

    "He confuses Mary (Heb. Miriam) the mother of Jesus with Miriam the sister of Moses -- and misled by the rising worship of Mary in Christendom -- thinks that Christians look upon her as a goddess forming a trinity with the Father and Christ (v.ll6).

    "He accepts several uncanonical legends about Jesus and the Virgin Birth (iii.47; xxi,91).

    "He modestly acknowledges the miracles of Jesus, while making no claim to such powers for himself (iii,48; v,110).

    "Like the Docetists, he thinks that God put a phantom in Christ's place on the cross, and drew Him up to heaven unhurt. But Mohammed stopped short of making Jesus the Son of God.

    'Far is it removed from Allah's transcendent majesty that he should have a son' (iv,171).

    "He begs 'the people of the Scripture' to 'come to an agreement between us and you, that we shall worship none but Allah (iii,64).

    Perhaps Mohammed, also, was in the situation where "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing."

    Robby

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    December 1, 2004 - 05:46 am
    JoanK, "I also feel we are losing our basic commitment of respect for other people's beliefs. I marvel at Mahlia's courtesy in the face of some less than courteous comments." Exactly.

    Clarity does not include contempt and disdain, which promotes misunderstanding. A correct language gets the message across better than just airing miscontentment with disregard for whoever might be offended in the process. War starts with words the same as faith.

    Éloïse

    Malryn (Mal)
    December 1, 2004 - 08:00 am
    Maybe people would feel better if they read and quoted from Heretics: The Bloody History of the Christian Church by Dorion Sagan.

    I could have allowed myself to think my beliefs were insulted by things that have occasionally been said in this discussion. I choose not to because I'm here to learn. As I said last night, it's all a matter of interpretation.

    It's interesting to see what Mohammed took of Judaism and other religions for Islam, isn't it? Where did he hear these things? With whom did he talk?

    I had several thoughts last night while I was trying to get to sleep. I see much in these ancient religions that was put in them because of the time, the climate, the geography, the history and the poverty which pervaded the areas in which they arose. The heaven which was promised with its abundance and satisfaction of unfulfilled earthly needs certainly must have been attractive.

    In my after-midnight meanderings I also wondered what things would have been like if the Messiah idea had not come along.

    Mal

    Traude S
    December 1, 2004 - 09:42 am
    My concerns are the same as those expressed by JOAN, BUBBLE and ÉLOÏSE.

    MAL, as for "Where did he hear these things? With whom did he talk?", wasn't that clear from the very outset? I know I have referred to it.

    History tells us that Mohammed heard these things on his many extended caravans, when he came in contact and talked with other traders.

    Those were the first glimpses, the stimulus for his initially private reflections that engendered searching comparisons between the monotheistic faith (one god) of the Jews and Christians and the idolatrous practices then still prevailing in Mecca. Simply put, he took what he liked and molded it as he saw fit.

    We are fortunate in having MAHLIA and BUBBLE and others with us, willing to share their knowledge, and providing their respective practical experiences. That adds a personal dimension to Durant's detached, scholarly, at times (forgive me) excruciatingly detailed presentation.

    I will continue to give them my respectful attention.

    Malryn (Mal)
    December 1, 2004 - 10:18 am
    Okay, TRAUDE. Thanks.

    Mal

    Scrawler
    December 1, 2004 - 10:54 am
    If as you say the Christians and Muslims thought enough of the teachings of the Jews to incorporate their ideas into their own religions, should it bring us closer together?

    Persian
    December 1, 2004 - 11:54 am
    I'm a little late coming to the discusion today as I've been busy baking myself a birthday cake and eating a fresh slice, talking to my husband in Egypt, and my son, who is recuperating from his recent venture in Afghanistan.

    JUSTIN - Regarding sometimes "irreverent" comments: personally I think that every engaging discussion has room for a bit of irreverence. We all learn in different ways, grasping quickly what is of interest and less so the details which are seemingly not so important. IMO, it would be positively boring if we all thought alike.

    However, it is truly difficult to grasp the core of "differences" (whether they be religious or cultural) if one has not actually experienced them first-hand. Personally, I think we continue to learn from each other in this discussion, balancing Durant's sometimes drier comments with our own often lively contributions and Robby's fine stewardship, which makes the flow more interesting. Usually, I come to this discussion with the thought that "today I'm going to learn something new" or a new ay of looking at something I thought I already understood. It's an adventure!

    JOAN, you will laugh, but some of the best conversations I've had over the years about comparative religion have been with colleagues or students who identify themselves as agnostic. Their contributions have been intelligent, articulate, challenging and definitely thought provoking.

    There are often aspects of ANY religion with which adherents (or those just learning) do not agree. Although my family heritage is multicultural and multi-religious, I've personally never agreed with the barbarism (my interpretation) of historical Islam and Christianity (towards each other and others). And I've certanly spoken out publicly about such acts. The Jewish component of my family is Persian, and the relations between Persian Jews and their Muslim Persian neighbors of my great-grandparents genereation were quite different than what we see,hear and read about in the contemporary media regarding today's Muslims and Jews. And the cultural traditions of the orthodox Christians of the Middle East are qutie different than the Christians in the West.

    TRAUDE made a good point in that Muhammad regularly interacted with other caravan traders. Thus, he had plenty of opportunities to learn about Jews and others who were trading goods in a very extensive regional area, reaching well into Central Asia and the Far East. And the communication customs of the period included many questions, indepth discussions about the answers and perhaps what we in our time would consider intrusive. (It is more or less the same today in the Middle East. Lots of personal questions from total strangers!)

    SCRAWLER - you've asked an excellent question, yet we must respond from our own place in today's histroy. My personal experience has been that among the older generations of Arabs and Jews (pre-1948 when the State of Israel was created) there is one type of closeness and communication. Among the Palestinians and Israelis, there are vast differences (based primarily on security for Israel and hope to regain lost land for the Palestinians). In the USA, the American Jewish community has often shown heaert-warming gestures of assistance and reconciliation with Arab Muslims - here I always think of the generous financial land emotional assistance offered by American Jews in Maryland to the Arab Muslim evacuees from Kuwait during the Gulf War. This is an example I witnessed personally over many months.

    In thinking about your question of being brought closer, I think it depends on the individual or community. Do they WANT to become closer? If so, that's the first step.

    Justin
    December 1, 2004 - 05:48 pm
    JoanK, Bubble, Eloise, Traude: Scorn, contempt ,disdain, less than courteous- with these words you chastise me. If I have offended, I apologize. I know that some of my recent posts have not been in good taste but there is no intent on my part to impart such a hurtful message.

    It is important, however, to recognize that we are in an historical discussion not a theological one. We should be able to examine ideas, people, and events, in an objective manner without offending the adherents of one idea or another. Perhaps, that is not possible. People may be so wedded to some ideas that it is not possible to examine all sides of an object without hurting someone's feelings.

    Most of you have referred to recent posts as offensive. Those would be posts responding to Kiwi, and Trevor. They dealt with the heart of this very issue, the conflict between theology and history. Theology depicts Christ as the first Christian and his God as something other than the God of the Jews. History, as you will recognize, treats Christ as a Jew to the end and recognizes his God as Eli, the God of the Jews. I know this topic is difficult because of people's attachment to its theological aspects. I don't wish to labor this thought, but I think it is important to deal with if we are to continue.

    I will strive to be more courteous and considerate.

    robert b. iadeluca
    December 1, 2004 - 06:01 pm
    "All in all, despite deprecating intimacy with them, Mohammed was well disposed toward Christians. 'Consort in the world kindly with Christians' (xxxi,15). Even after his quarrel with the Jews he counseled toleration toward the 'people of the Book' -- i.e. the Jews and the Christians. The term and policy were later extended to the Persians as also having a sacred book, the Avesta.

    "Mohammedanism, though as fanatic as any faith, concedes that others than Moslems may be saved (v.73), and requirs its followers to honor the 'Law' (the Old Testament), the Gospel, and the Koran as all constituting 'the Word of God.' Here was a refreshing breadth of view.

    "Mohammed adjures the Jews to obey their Law, Christians to obey the Gospel (v.72). But he invites them to accept also the Koran as God's latest pronouncement.

    "The earlier revelations had been corrupted and abused. Now the new one would unite them, cleanse them, and offer all mankind an integrating, invigorating faith.

    "Three books made and almost filled the Age of Faith:-the Bible, the Talmud, the Koran -- as if to say that in the rebarbarization of the Roman Empire only a supernatural ethic could restore order to society and the soul. All three books were Semitic and ovewhelmingly Judaic.

    "The drama of medieval history would be the spiritual competition of these Scriptures and the bloody conflict of their creeds."

    Robby

    Persian
    December 1, 2004 - 06:09 pm
    JUSTIN - thanks for reminding us that we come to this discussion with open minds, eager to learn from Durant's work, as well as from each other. It's a wonderful opportunity to study and discuss a complex topic - ISLAM in its ancient period and today. Personalities and different communication styles factor into ANY discussion, but that's the joy and stimulation of coming together in ROBBY's living room (which is how I think of this discussion).

    Traude S
    December 1, 2004 - 06:37 pm
    JUSTIN, I am sorry if I per chance have offended. I most assuredly did not mean to.

    In #1030 I expressed a general co-sentiment about previously voiced concerns, BUT the words "scorn, contempt, disdain" are not in my post. Furthermore, I would never presume to "chastise" anyone, least of all you!

    I too prefer the historical perspective over the finer theological points, similarities or dissimilarities. And I sincerely believe that the historical outlook, the chronological progression, might bring us to a better (albeit not total) understanding of Islam sooner. But of course we are proceeding at Durant's pace.

    Fifi le Beau
    December 1, 2004 - 07:22 pm
    Bubble, thank you for reminding me of pilpul and its meaning. It has been over 30 years since I followed Chaim Potok into the Talmudic Academy at Yeshiva College and felt his sometime anguish at the 'pilpul' method which he describes so well in his first book.

    I have read other books by him but they were mostly fiction and not as engaging as "The Chosen", whose father son relationship alone made the book worthwhile. He had a non fiction book out in the nineties called "Gates of November", and I look each time I go to the used bookstore in Chattanooga, but so far no luck.

    He is a wonderful writer, and I bought copies of 'The Chosen' for my three nephews and gave one to each at their bar Mitzvah many years ago. My husband saved me with an envelope of cash.

    Fifi

    3kings
    December 1, 2004 - 11:19 pm
    JUSTIN In your post #1034 you wonder if perhaps you where a little sharp with CAROLYN and me. For myself, I must hasten to say that I have taken no offense from any of your remarks.

    Your concern does you credit, but nothing you have said is considered offensive by me. ++ Trevor

    robert b. iadeluca
    December 2, 2004 - 04:11 am
    The Sword of Islam

    632-1058

    robert b. iadeluca
    December 2, 2004 - 04:15 am
    "Mohammed had appointed no successor to his power but he had chosen Abu Bekr (573-624) to conduct the prayers in the Medina mosque. After some turmoil and rivalry this mark of preference persuaded the Moslem leaders to elect Abu Bekr the first Caliph of Islam.

    "Khalifa ('representative') was at first a designation rather than a title. The official title was amir al-muminin, 'Commander of the Faithful.' Ali, cousin and son-in-law of Mohammed, was disappointed by the choice, and for six months withheld allegiance. Abbas, uncle of both Ali and Mohammed, shared this resentment.

    "From this inaugural disagreement came a dozen wars, an Abbasid dynasty, and a sectarian division that still agitates the Moslem world.

    "Abu Bekr was now fifty-nine. Short, thin, and strong, with scanty hair, and white beard dyed red -- simple and abstemious -- kindly but resolute -- attending personally to details of administration and judgment -- and never resting until justice was done -- serving without pay until his people overruled his austerity -and then, in his will, returning to the new state the stipends it had paid him.

    "The tribes of Arabia mistook his modest manners for weakness of will. Only superficially and reluctatntly converted to Islam, they now ignored it, and refused to pay the tithes that Mohammed had laid upon them.

    "When Abu Bekr insisted, they marched upon Medina. The Caliph improvised an army overnight, led it out before dawn, and routed the rebels (632).

    "Khalid ibn al-Walid, the most brilliant and ruthless of Arab generals, was sent out to bring back the turbulent peninsula to orthodoxy, repentance, and titles."

    Dissension within the family when the "father" is gone?

    Robby

    Bubble
    December 2, 2004 - 06:19 am
    Justin, Scorn, contempt ,disdain are not part of my vocabulary. I am never offended with ideas. Maybe I was too sensitive to others who might be.

    As soon as the "father" is gone, the children want to test their own will and new freedom?

    JoanK
    December 2, 2004 - 05:16 pm
    Justin: we're cool, as always. But we do need a nudge from time to time, to keep focussed, right? At least that's what I tell my family.

    robert b. iadeluca
    December 2, 2004 - 05:53 pm
    "The internal dissension may have formed one of the many conditions that led to the Arab conquest of western Asia. No thought of so extended an enterprise seems to have occurred to the Moslem leaers at Abu Bekr's accession.

    "Some Arab tribes in Syria rejected Christianity and Byzantium, stood off the imperial armies, and asked for Moslem help. Abu Bekr aent them reinforcements, and encouraged anti-Byzantine sentiment in Arabia. Here was an external issue that might weld internal unity.

    "The Bedoins, tired of starvation and used to war, enlisted readily in these apparently limited campaigns, and before they realized it the skeptics of the desert were dying enthusiastically for Islam.

    "Many causes produced the Arab expansion. There were economic causes. The decline of orderly government in the century before Mohammed had allowed the immigation system of Arabia to decay. The lowered yield of the soil menaced the growing population. Hunger for arable land may have moved the Moslem regiments.

    "Political causes operated:-both Byzantium and Persia, exhausted by war and mutual devastation, were in a tempting decline. In their provinces taxation rose while administration lapsed and protection failed.

    "Racial affinities played a part. Syria and Mesopotamia contained Arab tribes that found no difficulty in accepting first the rule, then the faith, of the Arab invaders.

    "Religious considerations entered:-Byzantine oppression of Monophysites, Nestorians, and other sects had alienated a large minority of the Syrian and Egyptian population, even some of the imperial garrisons. As the conquest proceded, the role of religion mounted. The Moslem leaders were passionate disciples of Mohammed, prayed even more than they fought, and in time inspired their followers with a fanaticism that accepted death in a holy war as an open sesame to paradise."

    Naive and sometimes hungry people found themselves involved in a particular belief before they knew what was happening to them. I wonder how often this happens in our time.

    Robby

    Persian
    December 2, 2004 - 07:25 pm
    ROBBY - Unfortunately, all we have to do is take a hard look around the world and we'll see that it happens all the time, in every region, and among all kinds of people, regardless of their beliefs.

    Traude S
    December 2, 2004 - 08:51 pm
    "... hunger for arable land ..." Indeed.

    Isn't that an ongoing, a never-ending, perhaps a natural quest? Think of what is happening in contemporary Brazil now. Remember the 'demand' for "Lebensraum" in the thirties? How far has humankind really come? Or civilization for that matter?

    3kings
    December 2, 2004 - 09:21 pm
    Robby Naive, meaning simple ? I don't think one can find anywhere a group of people who could fairly be called naive. Everywhere, one can find people who have knowledge, skills and experience, different to ours, but effective.

    Were we placed in their environment, we would find that we were poorly equipped to cope with their day-to-day experiences, and doubtless they would class us as naive ( and simple).

    Certainly the Arabs were economically poor, with low standards of living. It is this poverty that Marshalled them into military and political groups united under one religion that promised them a way out of the drudgery and poverty of their lives.

    It seems they even sought this relief in death. And in Palestine they are still accepting death rather than a life of continuing degradation.

    It's the economy, always the economy. == Trevor

    Justin
    December 2, 2004 - 10:53 pm
    Mohammad and his descendants engaged in warfare as a means of spreading Islam. It did the trick but it was a bad policy. Now the US engages in warfare to spread democracy. It too is bad policy. It is not clear to me why the American people seem to think it's acceptable for the US to engage in warfare for purposes of spreading democracy. We would normally oppose such action. When the US took preventive action in Viet Namn the people protested. Why not now? When Saddam tried Hitler's Lebensraum idea on Kuwait, we protested. What are we doing in Iraq?

    Justin
    December 2, 2004 - 11:10 pm
    Keep at it Trevor. I think you have something. When a man becomes part of an army, he must be fed and someone else is responsible for feeding him. And let's not forget the seventy virgins to warm his tush if he is killed in the cause. During the economic depression in the Thirties, lots of young guys enlisted in the Army for three squares and a place to sleep. Of course no one told them about K rations and fox holes at the time.

    winsum
    December 2, 2004 - 11:30 pm
    I se rooms full of people doing this on the news and it always seems rediculous to me. Imagine how I feel now that I know my ancestors were doing it too only just three times a day. . . claire

    robert b. iadeluca
    December 3, 2004 - 05:09 am
    "Morale factors were involved. Christian ethics and monasticism had reduced in the Near East that readiness for war which characterized Arab custom and Moslem teaching. The Arab troops were more rigorously disciplined and more ably led. They were inured to hardship and rewarded with spoils. They could fight on empty stomachs and depended upon victory for their meals.

    "But they were not barbarians. Ran Abu Bekr's proclamation:- 'Be just, be valiant. Die rather than yield. Be merciful. Slay neither old men, nor women, nor children. Destroy no fruit trees, grain, or cattle. Keep your word, even to your enemies. Molest not those religious persons who live retired from the world, but compel the rest of mankind to become Moslems or pay us tribute. If they refuse these terms, slay them.'

    "The choice given the enemy was not Islam or the sword. It was Islam or tribute or the sword.

    "Finally there were military causes of the invasion:-as the triumphant Arab armies swelled with hungry or ambitious recuits, the problem arose of giving them new lands to conquer, if only to provide them with food and pay.

    "The advance created its own momentum. Each victory required another until the Arab conquests -- more rapid than the Roman, more lasting than the Mongol -- summed up to the most amazing feat in military history."

    Sort of like the military-industrial comlex? Because we have the men in the military and because we have created the tools for them to use, we have to fight? We have no choice?

    Can it be the other way around? -- Democracy or the sword? Where does tribute fit into that?

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    December 3, 2004 - 05:59 am
    More about Abu Bakr

    Picture: Masjid al Nahawi Mosque at Medina where Mohammed and Abu Bakr are buried

    Picture: Interior of the Masjid al Nahawi Mosque

    Malryn (Mal)
    December 3, 2004 - 06:27 am


    "Muhammad (also spelled 'Mohammad', 'Mohammed'; and formerly Mahomet in imitation of the Latin spelling.) is revered by Muslims as the prophet of Islam. According to his traditional Muslim biographies (called sirah in Arabic), he was born circa 570 in Mecca (or Makkah) and died June 8, 632 in Medina (Madinah). His full name was Abu al-Qasim Muhammad Ibn Abd Allah Ibn Abd al-Muttalib Ibn Hashim (Ibn meaning son of and Abu meaning father of). Muslims consider Muhammad the last prophet of the Abrahamic religions. He also unified certain Arabian tribes, which enabled the Arab conquests which established the later Islamic empires.



    "Arab kinfolks have been divided according to lineage into three groups:



    "Perishing Arabs: The ancient Arabs, of whose history little is known, and of whom were ‘Ad, Thamûd, Tasam, Jadis, Emlaq, and others.



    "Pure Arabs: Who originated from the progeny of Ya‘rub bin Yashjub bin Qahtan. They were also called Qahtanian Arabs.



    "Arabized Arabs: Who originated from the progeny of Ishmael



    "Ishmael in Judaism and ChristianityIn the Book of Genesis (xvi, xvii, xxi, xxv) and later texts, Ishmael or Yishma'el ( 'God will hear', Standard Hebrew Yi; el, Tiberian Hebrew Yi) is Abraham's eldest son, born by his concubine Hagar. In Genesis 16 Sarai (Abram's wife) gives Abram her maid-servant Hagar to bear him children, since she acknowledged that God had kept her from having children (16:2). They were also called ‘Adnanian Arabs.



    "The Quraish are a branch of the Arabized Arabs.



    "The Quraish had become a prominent tribe in Mecca before the birth of Muhammad, and essentially ruled the city. Before Muhammad's birth, the tribe had split into different clans, each with different responsibilities. There were some rivalries among the clans, but these became especially pronounced during Muhammad's lifetime. The message spread by Muhammad was threatening to some clan leaders, and they tried to silence him by putting pressure on his uncle, Abu Talib Abu Talib ibn 'Abd al-Muttalib (d. 619) was an uncle of Muhammad and raised and supported him while he was a young man. He was a full brother of Muhammad's father Abdullah, who had died before Muhammad's birth. Abu Talib took care of Muhammad after the death of Muhammad's mother. Abu Talib also protected Muhammad against other clans of the Quraish who would later become the Prophet's enemies.

    Source:

    Quraish

    Persian
    December 3, 2004 - 10:14 am
    CLAIRE - The information regarding Islamic prayer in the link below will give you a clearer understanding of the prayer positions which Muslims follow. If you scroll down to "The Meaning of Prayer" in the link, there is a full description of the positions and the prayers which are said at each point.

    For Muslims, what you describe as "butt up five times a day" simply is a demonstration of humility by the supplicant before God - bending the knees, bowing forward, lowering oneself to the ground in a kneeling position and, finally, placing one's forhead on the prayer rug, while reciting specific prayers. It is similar to the way Catholic priets prostrate themselves full-length in front of the altar during their ordination ceremonies.

    http://www.al-islam.com/articles/articles-e.asp?fname=ALISLAM_R32_E

    Justin
    December 3, 2004 - 02:04 pm
    Yes, and there is also a great deal of genuflecting in Catholicism indicating a desire to be subservient to God. There is a similar action in Jewish prayer in which the petitioner nods the head. People, generally, bow the head in prayer in a short-hand way to acknowledge that they are the petitioner.

    moxiect
    December 3, 2004 - 02:26 pm


    Mahalia thank you for a most interesting and informative link in post 1054.

    Shasta Sills
    December 3, 2004 - 02:58 pm
    I was thinking the same thing that Trevor recently brought up. If we had to live in their circumstances, we wouldn't last two days. I would not know how to put a tent up. I would not know how to squat down in the sand and make a fire and cook something on it. And I SURE would not know how to ride one of those big lumpy camels. I would fall off and the camel would probably kick me. I can just hear all those Arabs laughing at me. "Those stupid Western women are not worth much, are they?"

    robert b. iadeluca
    December 3, 2004 - 03:57 pm
    "Early in 633 Khalid, having 'pacified' Arabia, was invited by a nomad frontier tribe to join it in raiding a neighboring community across the border in Iraq. Restless in idleness or peace, Khalid and 500 of his men accepted the invitation and in conjunction with 2500 tribesmen, invaded Persian soil.

    "We do not know if this adventure had receivd the consent of Abu Bekr. Apparently he accepted the results philosophically. Khalid captured Hira and sent the Caliph enough booty to elicit from him the famous phrase;-'Surely the womb is exhausted. Woman will no more bear a Khalid!'

    "Woman had now become a substantial item in the thought and spoils of the victors. At the siege of Emesa a young Arab leader fired the zeal of his troops by dscribing the beauty of the Syrian girls.

    "When Hira surrendered, Khalid stipulated that a lady, Kermat, should be given to an Arab soldier who claimed that Mohammed had promised her to him. The lady's family mourned but Kermat took the matter lightly. 'The fool saw me in my youth and has forgotten that youth does not last forever.'

    "The soldier, seeing her, agreed, and freed her for a little gold."

    Some people are invited to college parties, others to raiding parties. On second thought, there may not be any difference.

    Robby

    winsum
    December 3, 2004 - 04:26 pm
    I married an out door person who liked camping and I helped put up the tent and make the fire and even drive a twenty four foot trail as did my tenn age kids. some of us go out to the mountains and do that kind of thing for fun. , but I wuldnt want to by myself claire

    winsum
    December 3, 2004 - 04:32 pm
    I married an out door person who liked camping and I helped put up the tent and make the fire and even drive a twenty four foot trail as did my tenn age kids. some of us go out to the mountains and do that kind of thing for fun. , but I wuldnt want to by myself

    Mahlia Thankyo for your link to the ritual of prostration, I know I was impolite, out of line and you were very patient with me. I just cvan't accept any of those rituals, but keep coming back here for the learned discussion which you andothers bring . . . . claire

    robert b. iadeluca
    December 3, 2004 - 05:17 pm
    This article about Islamic Civilization states that "The Muslim Arabs like other nomads before them, did not conquer the targeted lands of the near East all at once.

    Read HERE how the constant raiding parties were able to conquer the overextended military of the civilized nations.

    Is what is explained in the article exactly what we are seeing in our day and age?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    December 3, 2004 - 05:34 pm
    Read here about the condition of SLAVES AND WOMEN in the desert -- even to this day.

    Robby

    Fifi le Beau
    December 3, 2004 - 06:20 pm
    Durant writes........

    Three books made and almost filled the Age of Faith:-the Bible, the Talmud, the Koran --- All three books were Semitic and ovewhelmingly Judaic.

    I thought this worth reposting as there seems to be little new under the sun, just add your own customs and old gods with a name change and you're off. Most sects die on the vine from neglect by the followers. Mohammedanism experienced this after Mohammed died, but the small core of leaders who had much to lose, forced them back into the fold by the sword.

    Mohammedanism still uses this fear tactic to keep the followers in line. There are books written on what happens to those who leave Islam, not necessarily for a new religion, but to rid themselves of the old one. It is a scary scene for those who choose not to leave their homeland.

    A young Iraqi writer that I read in the British press who writes under a pseudonym and was raised muslim tells us he is an atheist, he is gay, and he cannot openly be himself in his own country for fear of being killed. He kept this secret while growing to adulthood, and even now must be anonymous for fear of being hunted down even when he is residing out of his home country.

    I do believe it is possible and very probable that most people can be made to bow down and follow religion under threat. Personal belief however cannot be changed.

    I personally know people who attend church who are agnostic or deist. They have been going to church their entire lives and tell me they go for the fellowship. They are members in good standing and most everyone knows their belief, but as my friend tells me with a smile, they all expect a death bed confession in the end.

    Fifi