Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant ~ Volume IV, Part 1 ~ Nonfiction
Marjorie
August 27, 2004 - 09:28 am


What are our origins? Where are we now? Where are we headed?

Share your thoughts with us!





  
"I want to know what were the steps by which man passed from barbarism to civilization." (Voltaire)





Volume Four (The Age of Faith)

"Four elements constitute Civilization -- economic provision, political organization, moral traditions, and the pursuit of knowledge and the arts. "

"I shall proceed as rapidly as time and circumstances will permit, hoping that a few of my contemporaries will care to grow old with me while learning.

"

"These volumes may help some of our children to understand and enjoy the infinite riches of their inheritance."

"Civilization begins where chaos and insecurity ends." "








THE EMPEROR - THEODORA - BELISARIUS - THE CODE OF JUSTINIAN -THE IMPERIAL THEOLOGIAN







"Justinian encouraged the oriental conception of royalty as divine."

"Justinian was favored with competent generals and harassed by limited means."

"History rightly forgets Justinian's wars and remembers him for his laws."

"Probably Justinian's piety was sincere, not merely political."





In this Discussion Group we are not examining Durant. We are examining Civilization but in the process constantly referring to Durant's appraisals.

This volume surveys the medieval achievements and modern significance of Christian, Islamic, and Judaic life and culture. It includes the dramatic stories of St. Augustine, Hypatia, Justinian, Mohammed, Harun al-Rashid, Charlemagne, William the Conqueror, Eleanor of Aquitaine, Richard the Lion-Hearted, Saladin, Maimonides, St. Francis, St. Thomas Aquinas, Roger Bacon, and many others, all in the perspective of integrated history. The greatest love stories in literaure -- of Heloise and Abelard, of Dante and Beatrice -- are here retold with enthralling scholarship.

The Age of Faith covers the economy, politics, law, government, religion, morals, manners, education, literature, science, philosophy, and art of the Christians, Moslems, and Jews during an epoch that saw vital contests among the three great religions and between the religious and the secular view of human life. All the romance, poverty, splendor, piety and immorality, feudalism and monasticism, heresies and inquisitions, cathedrals and universities, troubadours and minnesingers of a picturesque millennium are gathered into one fascinating narrative.

This volume, and the series of which it is a part, has been compared with the great work of the French encyclopedists of the eighteenth century. The Story of Civilization represents the most comprehensive attempt in our times to embrace the vast panorama of man's history and culture.

This, then, is about YOU. Join our group daily and listen to what Durant and the rest of us are saying. Better yet, share with us your opinions.



Your Discussion Leader:

Robby Iadeluca





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robert b. iadeluca
August 27, 2004 - 06:12 pm
WELCOME back, "old timers" and a very special welcome to those newcomers who are joining our "family". You will very quickly understand why we consider ourselves a family. Although we all have the same serious purpose -- trying to answer Voltaire's question in the Heading above -- we also suffer from a contagious disease. We seem unable to repress our tendency to laugh, giggle, and sometimes tease each other -- all in good spirit of course - and not straying from the topic. Somehow this FUN approach leads to our better understanding of Mankind's progress.

We are ready to move on. The following Foundation has been laid.

Many of us here have been watching with fascination for almost three years the development of the potters wheel in Sumeria, the building of the pyramids in Ancient Egypt, the creation of the Code of Hammurabi in Babylonia, the start of letters and libraries in Assyria, and the influence of the prophets in Judea.

We observed the construction of imperial highways in Persia, the formation of the caste system in India, the coming of culture to China, the powers of the shogun in Japan, the Heroic and Golden Ages of Ancient Greece followed by the Hellenistic dispersion, and the rapid expansion of a small crossroads town named Rome to the ultimate all-encompassing power of the Roman Empire.

Throughout that progress toward civilization what we now call "religion" was ever-present. We felt the supernatural influence of sky gods, the sun god, plant gods, animal gods, sex gods, Osiris, Isis, Horus, Marduk, Ishtar, Tammuz, Polytheism, Henotheism, Yahveh, Zarathustra, Mithra, Naga, Hanuman, Nandi, Varuna, Prithivi, Parjanya, Agni, Vayu, Rudra, Indra, Ushas, Sita, Vishnu, Krishna, and Buddha. Add on to that the worship of ancestors, yin and yang, T'ien, the philosophy of Confucius, Shang-Ti, the doctrine of Lao-tze, and the Taoist faith.

Then came Zeus, Athena, Demeter, Hera, Artemis, Poseidon, Dionysus, Hermes, Priapus, Aphrodite, and countless others who competed with but finally lost to the less supernatural advancement of the philosophies of Xenophanes, Parmenides, Plato, Zeno, Philolaus, Leucippus, Democritus, Empedocles, Pericles, Protagoras, Socrates and Aristotle.

The Roman Empire, however, shunned the philosophies of Greece and re-introducing us to gods, gave us Jupiter, Vesta, the Lar, the Penates, Janus, Juno, Cuba, Abeona, Fabulina, Tellus, Mars, Pomona, Faunus, Pales, Sterculus, Saturn, Ceres, Fornax, Vulcan, Minerva, Venus, Diana, Hercules, Pluto, Mercury, and Neptune.

Religion had returned in full force, bringing with it, even as Rome lay dying, a belief in monotheism growing out of Ancient Judea.

Those joining us for the first time will have no problem easing right in to the discussion without having read the previous three volumes. Each book stands by itself. Anyone with an interest in the Middle Ages will feel immediately comfortable.

Durant warns us:- "We are tempted to think of the Middle Ages as a fallow interval between the fall of the Roman Empire in the West (476) and the discovery of America. We must remind ourselves that the followers of Abelard called themselves moderni, and that the bishop of Exeter, in 1287, spoke of his century as moderni tempores, 'modern times.' The boundary between 'medieval' and 'modern' is always advancing."

To those of us living in the 21st Century, the Middle Ages appear close enough to visualize and to compare with our own culture. Could it be because some of us still practice the same religion that took hold two thousand years ago? Is it because the language coming out of the "Moyen Age" has words, phrases and spelling close enough for us to decipher? Maybe the names and events of the more recent time ring a louder bell than the muffled tones of more primitive cultures.

This volume contains a thousand years in a thousand pages.

It is a history of medieval civilization -- Christian, Islamic, and Judaic -- from Constantine (A.D. 325) to Dante (A.D. 1300). It gives a unified picture, and perhaps a new and wider perspective, of medieval life -- observing Christian civilization against the background of an Islamic civilization of great richness and complexity -- seeing Christian philosophy, and viewing the Crusades -- not as the assault of civilization upon barbarism -- but as the contact of a young culture with one of greater maturity and subtlety.

The Age of Faith aims to be philosophical history. The author seeks to explain causes, currents, and results and to find in events a logic and sequence that may illuminate our own day.

Durant comforts previous readers by saying:- "Readers familiar with 'Caesar and Christ' will find it easy to pick up the threads of the present narrative. Chronology compels us to begin with those facets of the quadripartite medieval civilization which are most remote from our normal interest -- the Byzantine and the Islamic. The Christian reader will be surprised by the space given to the Moslem culture, and the Moslem scholar will mourn the brevity with which the brilliant civilization of medieval Islam has been summarized. A persistent effort has been made to be impartial, to see each faith and culture from its own point of view."

So let us move ahead.

And be sure to click onto the "Subscribe' button so that you don't lose us!!

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
August 27, 2004 - 06:23 pm
Quoting Durant:-"The preponderant bequest of the Age of Faith was religion."



For this reason, it will be impossible to participate in this forum without discussing "religion" from time to time.

"The following guidelines will be enforced by the Discussion Leader to avoid confrontations and digressions about personal religious views.

"1 - You may make one post describing your own beliefs related to religion (whether you have a religious faith or do not) in order to explain your viewpoint toward the topic at hand. Making additional posts about your religious beliefs or faith is not permitted.
2 - Do not speak of your religion or absence of religious beliefs as "the truth."
3 - Do not attempt to change another's conviction about religion. "Comments about issues are welcomed. Negative comments about other participants are not permitted.

"Those participants who do not believe they are being treated fairly in this respect always have the right to contact Marcie, Director of Education. I will follow her guidance."

robert b. iadeluca
August 28, 2004 - 10:03 am
Here is some helpful guidance to those newcomers here. In this forum the Heading is extremely important. Please do not let yourself (even after becoming an oldtimer) idly scroll by the Heading each time you enter the discussion. As an example:-

FIRST -- Note the phrase in the Heading which begins with "Four elements constitute ..." Durant asks us to watch for these four elements as we progress through each culture.

He tells us that "Economic conditions are important. A people may possess ordered institutions, a lofty moral code, and even a flair for the minor forms of art, and yet if it depends for its existence upon the precarious fortunes of the chase, it will never quite pass from barbarism to civilization."

Of political order he says:-"Men must feel, by and large, that they need not look for death or taxes at every turn. There must be some unity of language to serve as a medium of mental exchange."

He continues:-"Through church, or family, or school, or otherwise, there must be a unifying moral code, some rules of the games of life acknowledged even by those who violate them."

He then concludes:-"Finally there must be education -- some technique, however primitive, for the transmission of culture."

Durant emphasizes that "The disappearance of these conditions -- sometimes of even one of them -- may destroy a civilization." We will be watching for these as Durant moves us along.

Speaking of the Heading, a loud rousing Kudo for Marjorie who is not only the expert technician who modified the Heading for this fourth volume but was the original creator of this attractive Heading which has been in use for three years now.



SECOND -- Above my name in the Heading you will see four quotes in GREEN. These change periodically and do so for two reasons. They help those participants who do not have the book to see where we are. I do not give page or chapter numbers but the titles above the quotes give us the book sections. The GREEN quotes and their titles also help us to stay on-topic. Participants who have the book are asked not to jump ahead.

THIRD -- All words by Durant are in italics and within quote marks. All other words are mine.



Our Ground Rules are very simple:-

1 - The warning about proselytizing as previously outlined.
2 - Addressing issues, not the personalities of participants.
3 - Keeping in mind that this is a historical discussion, not a political one. You are asked not to mention the names of political figures currently in the news. When your inner desire is so strong that it is hard to refrain, there are political discussion groups in Senior Net where you can erupt.

Newcomers will find that this is a very fast-moving discussion group. If you let even one day go by without checking, you may find that we are already on another sub-topic. You are urged to regularly give your points of view. No one here is an expert. NO ONE!! Each of us comes from our own learning experiences. We are just a group of interested folks gathered together in this living room, fulfilling Durant's hope (see Heading above) that we care enough to "grow old while learning."



Durant warns us:--"The legacy of the Middle Ages includes evil as well as good. We have not fully recovered from the Dark Ages:--the insecurity that excites greed -- the fear that fosters cruelty -- the poverty that breeds filth and ignorance -- the filth that generates disease -- the ignorance that begets credulity, superstition, occultism -- these still survive amongst us. The dogmatism that festers into intolerance and Inqisitions only awaits opportunity or permission to oppress, kill, ravage, and destroy."

Let us heed Durant's advice:--"The study of antiquity is properly accounted worthless except as it may be made living drama -- or illuminate our contemporary life."

Have we fully recovered from the Dark Ages? Let us look backward and see what Durant tells us about the Fourth Century -- but simultaneously look sideward and compare that period 2000 years ago with what is happening in our own times.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 1, 2004 - 05:20 pm
Many of us here are looking forward to the appearance of Islam upon the world scene but patience is required for a complete understanding as Durant creates the backdrop of developing Christianity. Let us listen to his words:-



"In the year 335 the emperor Constantine, feeling the nearness of death, called his sons and nephews to his side, and divided among them, with the folly of fondness, the government of the immense empire that he had won.

"To his eldest son, Constantine II, he assigned the West -- Britain, Gaul, and Spain. To his son Constantius, the East -- Asia Minor, Syria, and Egypt. To his youngest son, Constans, North Africa, Italy, Illyricum, and Thrace, including the new and old capitals -- Constantinople and Rome. And to two nephews Armenia, Macedonia, and Greece.

"The first Christian Emperor had spent his life, and many another, in restoring the monarchy, and unifying the faith of the Roman Empire. His death (337) risked all. He had a hard choice. His rule had not acquired the sanctity of time, and could not ensure the peaceable succession of a sole heir. Divided government seemed a lesser evil than civil war.

"Civil war came none the less, and assassination simplified the scene. The army rejected the authority of any but Constntine's sons. All other male relatives of the dead Emperor were murdered, except his nephews, Gallus and Julian. Gallus was ill, and gave promise of an early death. Julian was five, and perhaps the charm of his age softened the heart of Constantius, whom tradition and Ammianus credited with these crimes.

"Constantius renewed with Persia that ancient war between East and West which had never really ceased since Marathon, and allowed his brothers to eliminate one another in fraternal strife. Left sole emperor (353), he returned to Constantinople, and governed the reunified realm with dour integrity and devoted incompetence -- too suspicious to be happy -- too cruel to be loved -- too vain to be great.

"The city that Constantine had called Nova Roma, but which even in his lifetime had taken his name, had been founded on the Bosporus by Greek colonists about 657 B.C. For almost a thousand years it had been known as Byzantium. Byzantine would persist as a label for its civilization and its art.

"No site on earth could have surpassed it for a capital. At Tilsit, in 1807, Napoleon would call it the empire of the world, and would refuse to yield it to a Russia fated by the direction of her rivers to long for its control. Here at any moment the ruling power could close a main door between East and West. Here the commerce of continents would congregate, and desposit the products of a hundred states. Here an army might stand poised to drive back the barbarians of the West.

"The rushing waters provided defense on every side but one, which could be strongly walled. In the Golden Horn -- a quiet inlet of the Bosporus -- war fleets and merchantmen might find a haven from attack or storm. The Greeks called the inlet Keras -- horn -- possibly from its shape. Golden was later added to suggest the wealth brought to this port in fish and grain and trade. Here, amid a population predominantly Christian, and long inured to Oriental monarchy and pomp, the Christian emperor might enjoy the public support withheld by Rome's proud Senate and pagan populace.

"For a thousand years the Roman Empire would here survive the barbarian floods that were to innudate Rome -- Goths, Huns, Vandals, Avars, Persians, Arabs, Bulgarians, Russians would threaaten the new capital in turn and fail. Only once in that millennium would Constantinople be captured -- by Christian Crusaders loving gold a little better than the cross. For eight centuries after Mohammed it would hold back the Moslem tide that would sweep over Asia, Africa, and Spain.

"Here beyond all expectation Greek civilization would display a saving continuity, tenaciously preserve its ancient treasures, and transmit them at last to renaissance Italy and the Western world."

Constantine divides his "estate" among his three sons, two of whom kill each other leaving Constantius the sole beneficiary. None of us are "emperor" status but I wonder sometimes how completely our Wills are respected. Family squabbles often arise. In this case "assassination simplfied the scene."

The direction of Christianity changed due simply to family jealousy. A reminder that local events can change the world.

Robby

Bubble
September 5, 2004 - 02:05 am
Hello Robby

I am reporting present for SoC next volume discussion- and for the next 6 or 7 years. **grin**

Byzantium always held a magical sparkle in historical as well as in imaginative writings and with reason. It is still a great touristic centre.

By·zan·ti·um (bi zanÆsh" Ãm, -t" Ãm), n. an ancient Greek city on the Bosporus and the Sea of Marmara: Constantine I rebuilt it and renamed it Constantinople A.D. 330. Cf. Istanbul. (Webster's dict.)

We are lucky that our will will never change the face of history. I suppose that we would't worry about it being respected or not after we pass that doorway on our next soul voyage? Bubble

Malryn (Mal)
September 5, 2004 - 02:52 am
Reporting for duty, Dr. Iadeluca.

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
September 5, 2004 - 02:58 am
Map showing Istanbul, upper left corner. Note the relationship to Athens

Malryn (Mal)
September 5, 2004 - 03:05 am
The Byzantine Empire

Éloïse De Pelteau
September 5, 2004 - 03:46 am
I am still here Robby to start another volume of Durant. I will come here every day as usual since we started three years ago. Never thought I would stick it out that long. I am still looking for a road that will take us to civilization, but Durant thinks it will never be built. "it will never quite pass from barbarism to civilization."

Bubble, do you think so too? "our will will never change the face of history."

Mal, wonderful links again especially The Bizantine Empire.

Eloïse

robert b. iadeluca
September 5, 2004 - 04:16 am
Hi Bubble! Regarding your comment that Istanbul (Constantinople) is still a great tourist area, I noticed the statement in Mal's link to "Byzantine Empire" that while Europe was still struggling through the Dark Ages, that Constantinople was "one of the most glorious cities on the globe."

Mal:-As usual, your links are marvelous. The map was extremely clear. As you indicate, Constantinople was near Athens. I'm sure that Durant will often relate the budding Christian religion to Greek culture.

Eloise:-Still sticking it out after three years? And still looking as young as ever? Durant's "story" must have rejuvenating powers!

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 5, 2004 - 06:16 am
Here are some MAGNIFICENT PHOTOS of Istanbul. Click onto the photos to enlarge them and take plenty of time to enjoy the beauty of this city.

Robby

moxiect
September 5, 2004 - 08:04 am


Hi Robby!

I'm checking in for this next round! Still have a lot to learn!

Mal, thanks for the link.

Robby, the link to Instanbul pictures were terrific.

ciao

robert b. iadeluca
September 5, 2004 - 08:19 am
Welcome back, Moxie!! And while you're learning, let us know what it is.

Robby

JoanK
September 5, 2004 - 09:10 am
I'm here. Fantastic links, Mal and Robby. I've got my bags packed. Let's go!

robert b. iadeluca
September 5, 2004 - 09:15 am
We're rarin' to go, Joan! Glad you're on board.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 5, 2004 - 09:28 am
"In November 324, Constantine the Great led his aides, engineers, and priests from the harbor of Byzantium, across the surrounding hills to trace the boundaries of his contemplated capital. Some marveled that he took in so much, but he said:''I shall advance until He, the invisible God who marches before me, thinks proper to stop.' He left no deed undone, no word unsaid, that could give to his plan, as to his state, a deep support in the religious sentiments of the people and in the loyalty of the Christian Church.

"He brought in -- 'in obedience to the command of God' -- thousands of workmen and artists to raise city walls, fortifications, administrative buildings, palaces, and homes. He adorned the squares and streets with fountains and porticoes, and with famous sculptures conscripted impartially from a hundred cities in his realm. And to divert the turbulence of the populace he provided an ornate and spacious hippodrome where the public passion for games and gambling might vent itself on a scale paralleled only in degenerating Rome.

"The New Rome was dedicated as capital of the Eastern Empire on May 11, 330 -- a day that was thereafter annually celebrated with imposing ceremony. Paganism was officially ended. The Middle Ages of triumphant faith were, so to speak, officially begun.

"The East had won its spiritual battle against the physically victorious West, and would rule the Western soul for a thousand years."

Just one man decided that this city would be the capital of the entire Eastern Empire. Just one man laid out the detailed plans for a great city. And this one man did it in the name of the one deity in whom he believed.

Robby

hegeso
September 5, 2004 - 10:13 am
I want to join.

I discovered Robby's forum quite late, and started by diligently lurking. I think I am ready to join.

robert b. iadeluca
September 5, 2004 - 10:21 am
Welcome, Hegeso! If you are a human being and are interested, you are ready to join. In fact, you already belong! Be sure you have read all the postings beginning with the first one. This will answer many of your questions.

Am I correct that your name is Anna?

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
September 5, 2004 - 12:06 pm
I see that Durant writes "The Middle Ages" -- "Le Moyen Âge".

Shasta Sills
September 5, 2004 - 12:23 pm
Many years ago, there was a silly little song that became lodged in my brain and I've never been able to get rid of it:

"Well, you can't go back to Constantinople!

Cause it's Istanbul, not Constantinople!

No, you can't go back to Constantinople!

Cause there's no Constantinople any more!"

You can see what my contribution to this discussion will be like.

robert b. iadeluca
September 5, 2004 - 12:27 pm
Shasta:-Your contributions always accepted -- including songs!

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 5, 2004 - 12:56 pm
Here's a BRIEF BIO of a couple of Montrealers of Greek descent who suddenly learned about the story of Constantinople and the Roman Empire and used it in their singing presentations.

Robby

FAKI
September 5, 2004 - 01:54 pm
I am a first timer with this course and look forward the history we will learn. The Durants say about Constantinople: "No site on earth could have surpassed it for a capital." In two trips to the city I could only be awe struck with its beauty, history and strategic location between east and west. On one trip we arrived by water in the early morning when the lights of the city outlined the mosques and minarets, gifts from the "Moslem tide." Breathtaking!

The Ayasofya Museum included in the above fine pictures is especially interesting, once a Christian Church and with the coming of moslems, a mosque as is seen in its present form. La Verne.

Rich7
September 5, 2004 - 02:06 pm
That tune, Istanbul, not Constantinople- I always thought it was recorded by the Andrews Sisters. Just checked Google, and it seems to be a Four Lads song. Strange, I can almost hear the Andrews Sisters singing it.

Have my own copy of volume four. (Well, it's the library copy, but I can keep renewing it as long as someone else doesn't want it.)

What struck me about the description of the site for constantinople was how easily it could be defended against attacks; an important consideration for the time. It was later sacked by greedy Crusaders, but that was more through treachery than military conquest. The crusaders were supposed to be "good guys."

So much for trusting people who tell you that they come in God's name.

Rich

winsum
September 5, 2004 - 02:20 pm
years ago I read a book by Harold Lamb called Theodora and the Emperor about constantinopal and the great rounded domed church (now a museum?) which he built especially for her. My memory is faint and I can't find it on the net so far. at least amazon has never heard of it. I think I still have the book. Harold Lamb wrote many "soft" history books. . . all but fictionalized. about other places too. . anyone?

back again. google found him and has lots of books on sale. did't mention this one though here

http://search.netscape.com/ns/search?fromPage=NSCPIndex2&query=Harold+Lamb+author&x=11&y=11 z,p.and here are the historical novels. three of them sugar coated but accurate.

Harold Lamb. Islam. Omar Khayyam. Harold Lamb. Greece. Alexander of Macedon, the Journey to World's End, 1946. Harold Lamb. Rome. Theodora and the Emperor, 1952.



claire

Rich7
September 5, 2004 - 02:27 pm
You did not just imagine that such a book by Harold Lamb existed. It was titled "Theorodora and the Emperor (AD527-565)" It is now out of print, but there are some places on the net that will sell used copies of out-of-print books. One of them is called Powells.

Regards, Rich

Justin
September 5, 2004 - 02:30 pm
The Durants say," The east had won its spiritual battle against the physically victorious west and would rule the western soul for a thousand years."

The time frame ranges from 300 CE to 1200 CE when the Renaisance came to Europe. The period is one in which religion ruled the western world. Those of us today who think a theocracy is the best way to manage the world should pay close attention to the lessons of Volume four.

Today, there are few who would recognize that Jesus, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and Paul were one and all Eastern Jews and that Jesus was a revolutionary figure in his eastern home community.

Let us begin the adventure.

winsum
September 5, 2004 - 02:35 pm
lead on . . . .

Sunknow
September 5, 2004 - 02:49 pm
The minute I picked up the book and started reading, I started looking for a map.....I MUST have a map to see "where I am" or "where I'm going". I found the maps inside the hardback covers of the book, but they were not sufficient to answer my questions.

AW.....at last. Mal, thanks for the link to maps. Perfect.

And Robby, thanks for the photos. Must take time to look at every one of them.

These things make it all so much more real, if that's possible. The Durants make you want to know even more about the places they are writing about.

There is nothing like getting behind before you even get started.

Thanks, again......

Sun

robert b. iadeluca
September 5, 2004 - 03:26 pm
A hearty welcome (or welcome back) to FAKI, Rich, Claire, Justin, and Sunknow.

FAKI:-It's a good thing you weren't next to me when you used the word "course!" I jumped up on the table, I screamed, the cat hid under the bed, the neighbors came to the door. It is NOT a course! It is merely an informal living room discussion among friends going over the progress of Mankind. There will be no quizzes, no essays, and certainly no credits given. As I calmed down and re-read your posting, however, an unaccustomed humility moved in. You have been to Istanbul (twice no less) and I have never been near the place. So please talk to us a bit about your memories of those trips and what you saw.

Rich:-I have a feeling that Durant will have a lot to tell us about the Crusaders at Constantinople.

Thank you, Claire, for the links to the Harold Lamb books.

Justin:-Regarding your comment about the "lessons" Volume Four will hold up for us to see, it will be interesting to notice how any of us change toward our contemporary culture as we move along.

Sun:-I agree with you about the need for good maps in this discussion. Feel comfortable. There will be many of them and, with the Internet, we will be able to furnish maps that Durant couldn't find back in the early 20th century.

Robby

Persian
September 5, 2004 - 03:28 pm
Robby, thanks for the link to the Magnificent Photos. I was especially happy to see one of the Suleymaniya Mosque, as I have a painting of it on my living room wall. It was done many years ago by a friend of my mother's and has been a family treatsure ever since.

I've come late to this discussion today, but with an aroused curiosity about how Durant will help me to remember some of the history of the areas in which I've traveled, the heritage of the people I've met during those travels, and the foundation of the wonderful hospitality I experienced during those journeys. There are many Persians of Turkish heritage and those along the Western border of Iran are proud to claim their descendency from the "ancient people."

robert b. iadeluca
September 5, 2004 - 03:40 pm
Welcome back, Mahlia!! You have such a rich background of heritage and travel that we are all looking forward to your postings.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 5, 2004 - 04:09 pm
"Within two centuries of its establishment as a capital, Constantinople became, and for ten centuries remained, the richest, most beatiful, and most civilized city in the world. In 337 it contained some 50,000. In 400 some 100,000. In 500 almost a million.

"An official document (c.450) lists five imperial palaces, six palaces for the ladies of the court, three for high dignitaries, 4388 mansions, 322 streets, 52 porticoes. Add to these a thousand shops, a hundred places of amusement, sumptuous baths, brilliantly ornamented churches, and magnificent squares that were veritable museums of the art of the classic world.

"On the second of the hills that lifted the city above its encompassing waters lay the Forum of Constantine, an elliptical space entered under a triumphal arch at either end. Porticoes and statuary formed its circumference. On the north side stood a stately senate house. At the center rose a famous porphyry pillar, 120 feet high, crowned with the figure of Apollo, and ascribed to Pheidias himself.

"From the Forum a broad Mese or Middle Way, lined with palaces and shops, and shaded with colonnades, led westward through the city to the Augusteum, a plaza a thousand by three hundred feet, named after Constantine's mother Helena as Augusta.

"At the north end of this square rose the first form of St. Sophia -- Church of the Holy Wisdom. On the east side was a second senate chamber. On the south stood the main palace of the emperor, and the gigantic public Baths of Zeuxippus, containing hundreds of statues in marble or bronze. At the west end a vaulted monument -- the Milion or Milestone -- marked the point from which radiated the many magnificent roads (some still functioning) that bound the provinces to the capital.

"Here, too, on the west of Augusteum, lay the great Hippodrome. Between this and St. Sophia the imperial or Sacred Palace spread, a complex structure of marble surrounded by 150 acres of gardens and porticoes. Here and there and in the suburbs were the mansions of the aristocracy. In the narrow, crooked, congested side streets were the shops of the tradesmen, and the homes or tenements of the populace. At its western terminus the Middle Way opened through the 'Golden Gate' -- in the Wall of Constantine -- upon the Sea of Marmora.

"Palaces lined the three shores, and trembled with reflected glory in the waves."

Undoubtedly a splended city but I am curious as to why a pillar would be crowned with a figure of Apollo in the capital city of an Empire ruled by a Christian emperor.

I envy those who have visited Istanbul where, I am sure, many of those monuments and palaces still stand.

Robby

Scamper
September 5, 2004 - 04:33 pm
I'm eager to begin volume 4 discussions with all of you. Someone thanked Robby for some maps he posted or pointed to, but I didn't see them. Can someone tell me how to get to them? Thanks!

Pamela

robert b. iadeluca
September 5, 2004 - 04:42 pm
Pam, you're probably referring to the map Mal gave in her clickable in Post #7.

Robby

JoanK
September 5, 2004 - 04:43 pm
PAMELA: post 7 has a map showing Istanbul (Constantenople). Post 8 has some maps of the Byzentine Empire. Post 11 has marvelous pictures.

robert b. iadeluca
September 5, 2004 - 05:04 pm
Here is a photo of the famous porphyry pillar which was at the center of the FORUM OF CONSTANTINE in Constantinople.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 5, 2004 - 05:28 pm
Here is a TOPOGRAPHIC MAP of ancient Constantinople.

Robby

Justin
September 5, 2004 - 08:09 pm
The red x in post 37 does not respond to a click.

Scrawler
September 5, 2004 - 08:23 pm
Greetings from the Pacific Northwest. As I start to read "The Age of Faith" I am reminded of the beginning of other civilizations that I've read. But this seems to be focused differently. It's still a mystery, but it seems to me that organized religion will play a larger part. How and why I'm not sure yet. In the Greek and Rome, religion played its part, but now it seems that it has a greater role.

Fifi le Beau
September 5, 2004 - 09:05 pm
Robby, I am here reading all the posts. Thank you for listing all the gods we have met through the previous three books.

The Jews had long ago put forth the one god theory, and Christianity has added their story using Jews as their foundation. Soon we will have another group who take the Jewish story and add their own myths and gods to change it once again. It's a middle east story, and how the west became embroiled in it has always been a mystery to me.

Since Constantinople was mainly Greek at the founding, the statue of Apollo is not surprising. Statues were brought to the city from all over the empire, so there were probably many old gods standing around.

The gods of old are today coveted as priceless artifacts. They are protected by museums and bought and sold at exorbitate prices.

The old gods are not dead, they are alive in advertising everything from sneakers to tuna fish.

Fifi

FAKI
September 5, 2004 - 09:17 pm
Istanbul is the only city in the world situated on two continents....Europe and Asia, and it has the feel of both, but to me it seemed mostly Asian with a distinct moslem influence. The architecture, decor, people, food, layout of the city, antiquities, and museums represent a culture very different, rare and wonderful for the American visitor. I traveled there in 1988, solo coming down from Prague through Europe, and in 1997 on a cruise with my husband from Greece, Israel and Ephesus on Turkey's southern coast.

As an independent traveler on my first trip there it was mesmerizing if a little strange, as I saw the usual (which are really unusual) sites: the Hippodrome, Topkapi Palace with its famous and eye-popping Harem, the Blue Mosque and the Ayasofa Mosque, Museums, boat rides on the Bosphorus and the Sea of Marmara with an unbelievable glimpse of the straight that leads to the Black Sea, and so much more. I could not believe that I was actually there. And of course, I visited the Grand Bazaar, thought to be, I think, the largest covered market in the world....so wonderful and unusual with carpets for sale and much more. You could wander there for days and be fascinated.

I have learned more history of the area since then, and I know that this "livingroom discussion with friends" will help me to appreciate it all the more. Wouldn't it be wonderful to visit again and see the interior of the country too! It has to be one of the most fascinating cities in the world. Thank you for letting me reminisce. La Verne

robert b. iadeluca
September 6, 2004 - 03:02 am
Hello again to Scrawler and Fifi! Nice to see old friends.

Yes, Scrawler, the very title "Age of Faith" would suggest to us the importance of religion in this upcoming volume.

Fifi, interesting -- your use of the word "embroiled" as the West touched this "Middle East" story. Durant will help unravel this mystery for us.

FAKI:-Your reminiscences are our gain. This combination of East and West in one city is especially fascinating.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 6, 2004 - 03:38 am
"The population of Constantinople was mainly Roman at the top, and for the rest overwhelmingly Greek. All alike called themselves Roman. While the language of the state was Latin, Greek remained the speech of the people and, by the seventh century, displaced Latin even in government.

"Below the great officials and the senators was an aristocracy of landowners dwelling now in the city, now on their country estates. Scorned by these, but rivaling them in wealth, were the merchants, who exchanged the goods of Constantinople and its hinterland for those of the world. Below these, a swelling bureaucracy of governmental employees.

"Below these the shopkeepers and master workmen of a hundred trades. Below these a mass of formally free labor, voteless and riotous, normally disciplined by hunger and police, and bribed to peace by races, games, and a daily dole totaling 80,000 measures of grain or loaves of bread.

"At the bottom, as everywhere in the Empire, were slaves, less numerous than in Caesar's Rome, and more humanely treated through the legislation of Constantine and the mitigating influence of the Church.

"Periodically the free population rose from its toil to crowd the Hippodrome. There, in an amphitheater 560 feet long and 380 wide, seats accommodated from 30,000 to 70,000 spectators. These were protected from the arena by an elliptical moat.

"Between the games they might walk under a shaded and marble-railed promenade 2766 feet long. Statuary lined the spina or backbone of the course -- a low wall that ran along the middle length of the arena from goal to goal. At the center of the spina stood an obelisk of Thothmes III, brought from Egypt. To the south rose a pillar of three intertwinded bronze serpents, originally raised at Delphi to commemorate the victory of Plataea (479B.C.). These two monuments still stand.

"The emperor's box, the Kathisma, was adorned in the fifth century with four horses in gilded bronze, an ancient work of Lysippus. In this Hippodrome the great national festivals were celebrated with processions, athletic contests, acrobatics, animal hunts and fights, and exhibitions of exotic beasts and birds. Greek tradition and Christian sentiment combined to make the amusements of Constantinole less cruel than those of Rome. We hear of no gladiatorial combats in the new capital. Nevertheless, the twenty-four horse and chariot races that usually dominated the program provided all the excitement that had marked a Roman holiday.

"Jockeys and charioteers were divided into Blues, Greens, Reds, and Whites, according to their employers and their garb. The spectators -- and indeed the whole population of the city -- divided likewise. The principal fashions -- the Blues and Greens -- fought with throats in the Hippodrome and occasionally with knives in the streets.

"Only at the games could the populace voice its feelings. There it claimed the right to ask favors of the ruler, to demand reforms, to denouncce oppressive officials, sometimes to berate the emperor himself as he sat secure in his exalted seat, from which he had a guarded exit to his palace."

Let me see if I get this straight. It was a society that acted as if it was classless -- they all called themselves Roman -- but there were the "haves" and the "have-nots." There was "old" money and "new" money. The "old" money scorned the "new" business money but it was the business class which had contact with the rest of the world. Could we call them International Corporations?

The size of governmental employees was ever increasing. Those who came under the heading of "labor" had no influence but had a great interest in Sports which they watched regularly. If the sport in question was a race, the participant would be decked with the color or identity of the business corporation which sponsored it. The people divided themselves into fans of specific teams and often had fights among themselves regarding winners and losers. Meanwhile, the leader of the Empire entered, watched, and left under armed guard.

How fortunate we are in this 21st century that we don't have a culture like that!!

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 6, 2004 - 03:54 am
For those interested in numbers, we now have 16 people participating in The Age of Faith.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 6, 2004 - 05:20 am
This ARTICLE does not relate to Christianity, per se, but does tell us a bit about faith.

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
September 6, 2004 - 06:17 am
Does that happen here? "Only at the games could the populace voice its feelings." If it does, I am not aware of it, but I wouldn't be surprised if it did. At the Athens olympics 75,000 spectators filled the seats and we were bombarded with commercials from Multinationals while watching the games on television.

I was surprised that so close to the Summer Olympics opening date the installations were very far from being ready and all at once, everything was in place, naturally at high cost. Money rules all.

Faki, tell us more about Istambul, it's fascinating.

Eloïse

MountainRose
September 6, 2004 - 08:45 am
. . . faith? I'm curious because I don't see it. I live in that general area, see them drive by to the Burning Man Festival, van after van of former flower children, unshaven and unkempt and rude and usually high. What this festival is, is simply an artificial commercial construct so that x-hippies can get together and relive their youth and experience drug highs and free sex. It's been growing every year and celebrates nothing at all. It's an empty ritual around empty symbolism, because people need ritual but they have rejected the ritual of true religion with tradition and beliefs around a charismatic leader who gave us new ways of thinking. This festival is empty of anything like that. No new thinking, no positive social justice, not even positive creative effort, certainly no message of love---just self-indulgence and vacant emotionalism and going back to irresponsible youth. Where exactly does that relate to faith and any one of the mainline religions of the world that actually do have positive beliefs and some attempt at social justice to offer to people (even if only as an ideal and not necessarily in reality)?

You stated yourself in one of the above posts that the games in Constantinople were LESS CRUEL and the slaves were treated kinder than in Rome because of the Christian influence. So with Christian influence, the society actually did become kinder and gentler in many ways---not ideal by a long shot, but certainly less barbaric than society had been before that. Mankind's progress is slow even as far as religion is concerned, but the ideals are always there in front of us and something to aim for. Without those ideals you have stuff like the Burning Man Festival, which means absolutely nothing and can just as easily turn into a festival for cannibals if the society around them allowed it.

Jan Sand
September 6, 2004 - 10:01 am
I picked up the fourth volume at the library and read a few pages but I saw no indication as to why Christianity rose so rapidly and forcefully to dominate the scene. Why was it so appealing? From what I read, many of the proponents of the old religion were reasonably decent and intelligent people and the text pointed out, even then, that those parts of Christianity and the Jewish legends upon which Christianity was constructed had obvious points irreconcilable with logic. Beyond that, even in the first centuries, Christians were no less bloody in their actions than the followers of previous religions. I found it interesting that St.Augustine concerned himself with the same metaphysical problems that plague philosophers today. I recently read a book by Daniel Dennet which developed the theory of free will, a theory that, frankly, I cannot buy as it excepts humanity from the basic laws of the universe – an exception that strikes me as wishful fantasy

FAKI
September 6, 2004 - 10:04 am
I am interested in the struggles between paganism and christianity, and especially Arius vs. Athanasius, and the Nicene Crede. Are we there yet, starting at page 7? I may have missed it, but how do we know when we can move on to other subjects in this chapter, or beyond? I know, Robby, that you want us to stay together and not move ahead too rapidly, which is usually my preference. La Verne

winsum
September 6, 2004 - 12:03 pm
site froze my computer. . have to watch out for those hot links.

the obolisk with constantine as appollo interests me. I've just finished reading Dan Browns books on rome with his hero the icon and symble specialist Robt. Langdon. essentially treasure hunts between such symbols in Rome. Constantine making alusion to himself as a god atop a pagan sympol doesn't sound strange to me . . . dictators in the modern world have made such claims in sculpture as well as word and deed. what is interesting is that he chose apollo instead of zeus, a war god. appollo, responsible for the path of the sun and plaing a lyre. . . friendlier to a basicly greek populance still involved with paganism and not ready yet for ONE GOD, or monotheism? A little like our xmas celebration during the winter solstise instead of the actual date of the birth of Jesus . . . .

Shasta Sills
September 6, 2004 - 01:47 pm
I loved Fifi's explanation of Apollo and the other old gods still "standing around." Like retirees who are no longer useful but still hanging around the office because they have nothing else to do.

I'm always interested in that class of people that Durant describes as "disciplined by hunger and police and bribed to peace by races, games, and a daily dole of...bread." Do we have anything comparable to that in our society? It seems to me that we don't. Unless you consider unemployment benefits a "daily dole of bread." We have plenty of sports for entertainment, but they're not free.

Jan Sand
September 6, 2004 - 02:00 pm
The USA considers itself a democracy but only about half the population votes and even there the public very badly informs itself. If the interest of the public in film stars and sports and TV were compared to that in the issues that were concerned with vital basics and running the country, there probably would be a surprisingly different ambience in the country. This is not too different from the "bread and circuses". All the complaints about the administration should be made considering that it has been in long enough to be properly evaluated and the responsibility lies not with the administration but with the people who support it (or fail to act to remove it).

Malryn (Mal)
September 6, 2004 - 02:43 pm
FAKI, ROBBY's last post was quoted from Page 5 of the book. There's plenty to talk about before going on to the conflict between Pagans and Christians, I think. These discussions often move very slowly, as you will see.

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
September 6, 2004 - 02:47 pm
JAN SAND, it seems to me that Christianity followed a time when philosophy had been the strongest factor with the Greeks. The Romans had many, many gods, weren't particularly interested in philosophy, and religion was not a strong, determining factor, as far as I can see.

There were numerous religions and religious factions before the advent of Christianity. Christianity drew many of these together, and with Paul's efforts became a viable whole, which appealed to the populace.

It seems to me that ordinary people, who would never achieve wealth, or even comfort, in their lives were attracted to Jesus's idea that the Kingdom of God could be achieved on earth. With Paul, that idea was turned into a Heaven after death where the streets were paved with gold, and there would be no pain and strife. In my opinion, this was one of the biggest attractions of Christianity, and a strong reason why it succeeded.

The ideas of Daniel Dennett and the Brights are the ideas of a small minority right now. They might evolve someday to become a dominant factor. However, there are few people right now who do not believe in a god, and who are strong enough to practice self-discipline, self-control and peaceful behavior without the rules and laws of a religion. That's how I see it, anyway.

Obviously, Christianity in its early form, after Paul and Constantine, did not appeal to all people. Soon we will see Christianity split into many factions and Islam come on the scene. The contrasts between Islamic beliefs and Christianity will be interesting to consider, especially at this time in history when Christianity is declining, and Islam gains more followers daily.

We must not forget Judaism, which has remained strong and did not founder even when there was no Judaic nation, and people who practised that religion were terribly persecuted. Jesus, after all, was born and died a Jew, and it is on his concepts, as interpreted and related by Paul and John the Baptist, that the religion known as Christianity is based.

Mal

Justin
September 6, 2004 - 03:36 pm
Burning is an essential part of many religions. Catholics tied men and women to stakes and burnt them alive as a religious offering to cleanse one of the sin of opposition. Even casually "spiritual" people gather today to burn candles in a group to alleviate some difficulty they face. The "faithful" burn candles in churches to express their "faith". Some Hindu women, perhaps even today, mount a husband's funeral pyre to conform to a religious idea. The belief that burning brings one closer to the gods is quite common in religious festival and ritual.The sinner, afterall, burns in hell. Does one not?

The Burning Man and the burning temple festivals are full of the rowdiness of a mardi gras and it seems to me, their ritual- the burning of wood figures is a little tamer than other religious burnings. For that reason, if for no other, these people should be encouraged. Perhaps, they will grow their burning ritual into a more meaningful symbolism to challenge the more mainstream groups of worshippers. They seem to have a lot of fun doing what they are now doing and these things do evolve.

Scrawler
September 6, 2004 - 04:19 pm
Egyptian Myth: phoenix rising from the ashes - a beautiful, lone bird which lived in the Arabian desert for 500 or 600 years and then consumed itself in fire, rising renewed from the ashes to start another long life: a symbol of immortality.

The phoenix rising from the ashes has long been a symbol of a new beginning and I see this also as a "burning off" of the old in order to start new.

"Burning" has always been symbolic of cleansing as well. We see the burning of candles and incense in almost all religions. Perhaps "the Burning Man Festival" is just another new beginning.

"The New Rome was dedicated as capital of the Eastern Empire on May 11, 330 - a day that was thereafter annually celebrated with imposing ceremony. Paganism was officially ended; the Middle Ages of triumphant faith were, so to speak, officially begun. The East had on its spiritual battle against the physically victorious West, and would rule the Western soul for a thousand years."

How can Durant say that "Paganism was officially ended" when there was a "...at the center rose a famous porphyry pillar, 120 feet high, crowned with the figure of Apollo, and ascribe to Pheidias himself."

What did the figure of Apollo symbolize except the concept of paganism?

I think there may be a warning to us in the words: "The East had won its spiritaul battle against the physically victorious West, and would rule the Western soul for a thousand years." Perhaps it is not enough to be physcially victorious; we must also be aware of the danger to our "spiritual souls" as well.

robert b. iadeluca
September 6, 2004 - 05:35 pm
LaVerne (FAKI):-As Mal indicated, the speed at which we progress depends on the speed of interaction by the various participants. One of the early posts here explained that. We would not want to move on if folks here are still interested in the current sub-topic. To know where you are in the book, refer to the GREEN quotes in the Heading and the captions above them.

A hearty welcome to Mountain Rose and Jan Sand!

Jan:-The answer as to why Christianity developed so rapidly was covered in the latter part of Volume Three which we discussed here in detail.

Robby

HubertPaul
September 6, 2004 - 05:40 pm
Robby:".......How fortunate we are in this 21st century that we don't have a culture like that!!

Yeah :>)

robert b. iadeluca
September 6, 2004 - 05:41 pm
Welcome back, Hubert. Good to see you again!

Robby

Justin
September 6, 2004 - 05:44 pm
One of the practices of the "Burning Temple" people, that of leaving the names of dead relatives in the Temple, is somewhat similar to the practice of Orthodox Jews who leave little prayer notes in crevices of the Wailing Wall. They rot and blow away to the winds. The Temple people think burning the names is a way of giving the names to a higher force- to the consuming power of fire. We may be examining the beginnings of a new religion- one not based on Judeo-Christian constructs but on one evolving out of contemporary people. People, afterall, are the source of religious ideas.

Justin
September 6, 2004 - 05:47 pm
Hubert: Welcome. The adventure has begun and we are barely, a few days old.

robert b. iadeluca
September 6, 2004 - 06:00 pm
Durant continues:-

"The populace was politically impotent. The Constantinian Constitution, continuing Diocletian's, was frankly monarchical. The two senates -- at Constantinople and at Rome -- could deliberate, legislate, adjudicate - but also subject to the imperial veto. Their legislative functions were largely appropriated by the ruler's advisory council, the sacrum consistorium principis.

"The emperor himself could legislate by simple decree, and his will was the supreme law. In the view of the emperors, democracy had failed. It had been destroyed by the Empire that it had helped to win. It could rule a city, perhaps, but not a hundred varied states. It had carried liberty into license, and license into chaos, until its class and civil war had threatened the economic and political life of the entire Mediteranean world.

"Diocletian and Constantine concluded that order could be restored only by restricting higher offices to an aristocracy of patrician counts (comites) and dukes (duces), recruited not by birth but through appointment by an emperor who possessed full responsibility and power, and was clothed with all the awesome prestige of ceremonial inaccessibility, Oriental pomp, and ecclesiastical coronation, sanctification, and support.

"Perhaps the system was warranted by the situation. But it left no check upon the ruler except the advice of complaisant aides and the fear of sudden death. It created a remarkably efficient administrative and judicial organization, and kept the Byzantine Empire in existence for a millennium -- but at the cost of political stagnation, public atrophy, court conspiracies, eunuch intrigues, wars of succession, and a score of palace revolutions that gave the throne occasionally to competence -- seldom to integrity -- too often to an unscrupulous adventurer -- an oligarchic cabal -- or an imperial fool.

The people had no power and democracy had failed. Liberty had become license. License had become chaos. Class war was imminent. Ruling a number of states by democratic means was obviously out of the question. Order was necessary and apparently this could only be put into place by higher governmental officials. The leader was given ultimate power.

All this led to a nation-state that lasted a thousand years. Perhaps the concept of democracy is not workable.

Robby

Justin
September 6, 2004 - 06:03 pm
In these difficult days following the death of Constantine and the rise of his successor out of the ashes of his will, while the Church is struggling to solidify its position in the empire, other religions are struggling to hold their power in the empire. Constantius will give way to Julian who will revert entirely to the old ways.

This is a period of flux we are looking at. The old ways did not stop in 330. They continued to influence the people. These folks had confidence in the power of Apollo. Mithraism and Isis continued to be strong and the only way Christianity could advance was to adopt the trappings of these religions and so appeal to a larger audience. This process of assimilation went on for several centuries and as a result the Christianity we know today is an amalgam of many earlier ideas.

robert b. iadeluca
September 6, 2004 - 06:38 pm
Here are some INTERESTING FACTS about the Senate created by Constantine in Constantinople while a Senate existed simultaneously in Rome.

Robby

MountainRose
September 6, 2004 - 07:54 pm
. . . general. She said: "However, there are few people right now who do not believe in a god, and who are strong enough to practice self-discipline, self-control and peaceful behavior without the rules and laws of a religion." --- And so it's always been. I think any religious belief worth it's name at least makes an attempt at preaching self-discipline and self-control and peaceful behavior. None of them have been successful at all times or in all places, since what they have to work with is just ordinary and flawed human beings, including those who preach.

But my way of looking at religion is sort of like the way I look at art. I want to be a GOOD ARTIST, and that means having goals and ideals always in front of me even though I may fail at them all the time, and it means self-discipline and self-control to do the things I know I need to do to reach my unique goal of self expression. It even means the rituals of attending classes or practice. Religion is no different, with the goal being to minimize the negative human traits and try to get everyone to live together in peace while expressing spiritual needs in ritual.

Every religious founder has preached the same sort of thing, whether it was Moses or Abraham, Jesus, Mohammed, Budda or Krishna or Lao Tzu. The fact that religious ideals end up in human hands and are often perverted in whatever social milieu those ideals find themselves, or in the hands of power-seeking people is sad, but a fact of life. And I believe that's where thinking people need to separate the wheat from the chaff, especially in our day and age when we can so easily have good information at hand. Nevertheless, I do believe that religious ideals are necessary just to keep us focused on living in peace and with gratitude, just as I have to focus on becoming the BEST artist I can be, even though I fail every single day and may never reach my goal.

Even our understanding of religion, although very slow, keeps growing as we learn more about other people and societies. And NOT one is all right or all wrong. Religion is just an "EXPRESSION" of what a certain people believes about God (or the universe, or whatever one wishes to call it), and that expression ought to be unique and individual for each society, instead of what especially the monotheistic religions have become, of "I'm right and you're wrong."

But for the church to grow, including eliminating opposing viewpoints, was necessary. It always is where human beings are concerned. One cannot be everything to everyone or one becomes nothing at all and scatters into millions of fragments which gives people nothing to hold onto. And Christianity grew because of that sort of organization and clarification of belief, and a new sort of kindness that wasn't part of the world before, even to slaves and the lowest of the low. Not everyone liked it, but that's life too.

And now that Christianity is older and has been through authoritarian turmoil, I think it can also be more open to reclarification of things that may have been misunderstood, translations that were not the best, mystical thought processes that gave twists to meanings that have escaped us in logical Greek and European languages. Religion, like everything else, is NOT static, no matter how much humans try to make it so.

And I believe Islam is going through the same growing pains right now as Christianity did during the middle ages, and in time even Islam will outgrow those pains and mature and become more tolerant. Mohammed was a wise prophet, and it isn't his fault that his ideas have been perverted by some in order to gain power.

MountainRose
September 6, 2004 - 08:15 pm
. . . some people don't have any deep spiritual needs for whatever reason, and it seems to me that's OK. I just have never understood why most people insist on "one way" being the right way, whether it's a particular religion or no religion. Each side can be equally adamant and stubborn. Non-believers are not exempt.

Seems to me the world is endless in its variety, and there's no reason why spiritual beliefs shouldn't also have variety, or someone prefer no belief at all. But I do think we had to come to this modern age to even begin to get a glimmer of understanding for that sort of tolerance, and the "individualism" of the pioneer in America helped that process along. Mankind, before that, lived in cohesive societies (or clans), dependent upon each other, and for a cohesive society to function, belief has to be pretty similar so the goals are shared.

That need has lessened in a society where "individualism" is celebrated, and as we see just by reading the paper, that brings its own sort of problems right along with it.

Jan Sand
September 6, 2004 - 08:45 pm
As has been indicated many time in the last two thousand years, religion has not had much effect upon the bloodthirsty tastes of humanity. The strange behaviour of some Catholic priests towards children is a minor phenmenon but a strong indicator that even intensive religious training does not affect personal anti-social leanings. And it seems that the most vicious instincts are frequently substantiated by strong religious inclinations. The Muslim relgion is no less humanistic than Christianity in its tenets and this does not stop the frightful actions of the fundamentalists. I have never needed religion and have frequently been puzzled by many of the ideas accepted by religious people but would rather not tie this forum up in religious wrangling as it usually is not fruitful.It seems to me that religions take credit for the basic decency which may be the genetic heritage of the majority of humanity whatever their religious inclinations. The USA is in strong contrast to Europe where religion seems to gradually fading away with no increase in anti-social behaviour. As a matter of fact, violent crime is much more common in the USA than in Europe but I would be cautious about attributing this to the strong religious movements in the USA.

Jan Sand
September 6, 2004 - 10:55 pm
This is somewhat off topic, but since the subject has been brought up, I believe it is appropriate to make a comment. The artist, like the scientist, is basically an individual confronting his or her perception of reality and attempting to formulate and convey what that perception might be. This requires the utilization of many skills and many times the impact of the conveyance of these perceptions depends upon how skillful the artist may be. The perfection of these skills is definitely an element in the final quality of the work and this can be useful to a limited extent in evaluating the capability of the artist but many times the mere exhibition of these skills perverts the essential thrust of a piece of art. A crude execution of a unique viewpoint is probably more valuable than a perfect execution of a hackneyed idea and it advances the general thrust of the nature of art more than fine tuning of the crafts necessary to the execution of a piece. A good artist confronts reality each time a piece is executed and reality always is a mystery to a sincere artist. The confrontation should be a "conversation" between the artist and the piece in execution. If the piece is merely an execution of a preconceived idea then the work is mere craft (although it may be very admirable craft) and not art. The actual art has taken place within the virtual reality of the artist's mind and the execution is craft. The artist should learn from the piece as it is executed in steps just as each step in the execution benefits from the new knowledge gained as the work progresses. That way art becomes an exciting adventure and not a work of drudgery.

Éloïse De Pelteau
September 7, 2004 - 01:09 am
Mountain Rose, your have excellent points. What do you think this age of information has done to promote harmony within groups of different beliefs? "None of them (religions) have been successful at all times or in all places, since what they have to work with is just ordinary and flawed human beings, including those who preach." Do you think that the spread of information through television and the internet is a dividing factor or is it going, eventurally, to make people more understanding and tolerent?

In our society of freedom of choice, people can adhere to any kind of beliefs they want without fear of reprisals, at least in America. Everyone persues his own goal while still needing to belong to an organized and cohesive group avoiding loneliness while still believing in the higher power of their choice.

Jan Sand
September 7, 2004 - 01:44 am
As somebody who was born on New York City and spent over half his life in the USA I am quite familiar with the racial, religious and homophobic pressures that have pervaded the USA from time to time. I am heterosexual, white and of no religious association so I have not personally suffered persecution but to deny its existence is to be abysmally ignorant or a hypocrite.

robert b. iadeluca
September 7, 2004 - 02:53 am
A suggestion regarding method of posting. Some excellent thoughts have been presented but they are more easily read if the post is broken up into smaller paragraphs.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 7, 2004 - 03:19 am
Getting back onto topic, Durant tells us:-

"In this Mediterranean world of the fourth century, where the state depended so much on religion, ecclesiastical affairs were in such turmoil that government felt called upon to interfere even in the mysteries of theology.

"The great debate between Athanasius and Arius had not ended with the Council of Nicaea (325). Many bishops -- in the East a majority -- still openly or secretly sided with Arius, i.e. they considered Christ the Son of God, but neither consubstantial nor coeternal with the Father. Constantine himself, after accepting the Council's decree, and banishing Arius, invited him to a personal conference (331), could find no heresy in him, and recommended the restoration of Arius and the Arians to their churches. Athanasius protested.

"A council of Eastern bishops at Tyre deposed him from his Alexandrian see (335). For two years he lived as an exile in Gaul. Arius again visited Constantine, and professed adherence to the Nicene Creed, with subtle reservations that an emperor could not be expected to understand.

"Constantine believed him, and bade Alexander, Patriarch of Constantine, receive him into communion. The ecclesiastical historian Socrates here tells a painful tale:--

'It was then Saturday, and Arius was expecting to assemble with the congregation on the day following. But Divine retribution overtook his daring criminality. For going out from the imperial palace and approaching the porphyry pillar in the Forum of Constantine, a terror seized him, accompanied by violent relaxation of his bowels. Together with the evacuation, his bowels protruded, followed by a copious hemorrhage, and the descent of the smaller intestine. Moreover, portions of his spleen and his liver were eliminated in the effusion of blood, so that he almost immediately died.'

"Hearing of his timely purge, Constantine began to wonder, whether Arius had not been a heretic after all. But when the Emperor himself died, in the following year, he received the rites of baptism from his friend and counselor Eusebius, Bishop of Nicomedia, an Arian.

"Constantius took theology more seriously than his father. He made his own inquiry into the paternity of Jesus, adoptd the Arian view, and felt a moral obligation to enforce it upon all Christendom. Athanasius, who had returned to his see after Constantine's death, was again expelled (339). Church councils, called and dominated by the new Emperor, affirmed merely the likeness, not the consubstantiality, of Christ with the Father. Ecclesiastics loyal to the Nicene Creed were removed from their churches, sometimes by the volence of mobs. For half a century it seemed that Christianity would be Unitarian, and abandon the divinity of Christ.

"In those bitter days, Athanasius spoke of himself as solus contra mundum. All the powers of the state were opposed to him, and even his Alexandrian congregation turned against him. Five times he fled from his see, often in peril of his life, and wandered in alien lands. Through half a century (323-73) he fought with patient diplomacy and eloquent vituperation for the creed as it had been defined under his leadership at Nicaea. He stood firm even when Pope Liberius gave in.

"To him, above all, the Church owes her doctrine of the Trinity."

Those here who participated in Volume Three will remember the debate between Athanasius and Arius and the Council of Nicaea. We will try to bring new participants here up to date on this discussion through links.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 7, 2004 - 03:26 am
Click HERE to learn about the First Council at Nicaea. Scroll half way down to read the creed. As usual, consider the source of each link.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 7, 2004 - 03:31 am
Here is the NICENE CREED.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 7, 2004 - 03:36 am
Here are OTHER VERSIONS of the Nicene Creed with translations to Latin, Greek, and French.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 7, 2004 - 04:45 am
Here is the biography of ATHANASIUS who, if I am reading correctly, had much to do with the present Christian belief of the divinity of Christ and the existence of the Trinity.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
September 7, 2004 - 07:02 am
Thank you, ROBBY, for the link to the biography of Athanasius, in which there is described how Jesus Christ was declared divine at the Council of Nicaea.

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
September 7, 2004 - 07:06 am
ROSE, I did say, "However, there are few people right now who do not believe in a god, and who are strong enough to practice self-discipline, self-control and peaceful behavior without the rules and laws of a religion," but I did not mean to imply that this is necessarily a good thing.

You said, "I do believe that religious ideals are necessary just to keep us focused on living in peace and with gratitude . . ."
And there are many who believe that religion is not necessary to keep us focused on living in peace, etc.



JAN SAND has said, " . . . even intensive religious training does not affect personal anti-social leanings." I agree.

"The artist, like the scientist, is basically an individual confronting his or her perception of reality and attempting to formulate and convey what that perception might be."

Scientists are not concerned with their own individual perceptions of reality. Like religious mystics and scholars, scientists examine the unknown. The difference between science and religion is, of course, that proof is required and demanded in scientific research. Hypotheses and theories cannot stand alone as laws in science. These hypotheses and theories must be proven before they become scientific truth and scientific law. Religious truth and laws are based on faith, not proof.

Mal

Jan Sand
September 7, 2004 - 07:28 am
Even scientific reality changes wih time and experience. I agree that a scientific consensus reaches out to accepted procedure for confirmation and validity. Nevertheless there is a large degree of nebulosity at the wave-front of science. In these latest years the discovery of dark matter and dark energy has revealed that our accepted knowledge concerned a mere five percent of the matter in the universe and there is a good deal of unconfirmed speculation as to the nature of reality. It is within this vague area that scientific discovery takes place and the individual scientist's volume of exploration takes place in this philosophical volume, a volume wherein individual perception is of prime importance.

On another matter it is amusing that the basic doctrine of the trinity in Christianity depended upon the happenstance of whether or not an individual ruler was in power when it became influential.

MountainRose
September 7, 2004 - 10:21 am
. . . but that was merely the "official" declaration. The divinity of Christ had been a part of Christianity from the very beginning. It was only AFTER division came up, with many personal interpretations, that obviously a formal decision had to be made. If one is a member of a professional group, the group has to be cohesive with common goals. One cannot have members with various ideas and ideals tear the group apart in endless argument. As a matter of fact, the church often made official decisions only AFTER division had entered that caused people to be so aggressive that they began killing each other.

One also has to remember that in early Christianity there were a lot of things written besides the bible that we have now, and much of the tradition comes out of those books and from oral history that was passed down from the original apostles. We all know, for instance, that Christ's mother and father were Joachim and Anne, but nowhere do we find that in the bible. After the family became prominent, things were written about them--just as things are written about prominent families now. And in order to understand Christianity, one MUST be somewhat familiar with all these other writings also.

The sacrament of the blood and wine was also practiced from the very beginning, as can be attested to by the Roman catacombs where it has been pictured on the walls.

And much was written about "what Christ really meant", with all sorts of personal interpretations. Which is why the church decided on those books of the bible which they felt were authentic. Even very early on there was stuff written about Christ that was nonsense and just plain wrong, like that he zapped little children for misbehaving. So the church did not have an easy job in deciding what was authentic and what was not. There were also bad translations going around, and still are, that completely change the meaning of the original writings and oral tradition. Which is why I'm delighted when archeologists find some older documents that clarify the belief in the original language, which is a MYSTICAL language.

MountainRose
September 7, 2004 - 10:40 am
. . . say in another post that no belief is fine as far as I can see. We are all wired differently; some people have spiritual needs and some don't. But I still think mankind in general needs spiritual guidance to become better human beings and maintain that characteristic. I do think without religion mankind's fate would have been much worse overall, because at least we know when we are off base with religious belief that holds us to an ideal, even when it doesn't come out right in real life. And I am including all prominent religious belief here, not just claiming that for one. The Golden Rule is the major point in ALL of them.

Eloise asked: "What do you think this age of information has done to promote harmony within groups of different beliefs? . . . . .Do you think that the spread of information through television and the internet is a dividing factor or is it going, eventurally, to make people more understanding and tolerent?"

Eloise, this is a two-edged sword, like everything in life is. I think for all progress we make we also have to pay a price, and this age of information has yet to prove how it will turn out and what the price will be.

I think the spread of information has helped us see more than our peculiar tunnel vision, and that there are perfectly legitimate other ways of thinking and working. So in that way I think we have become more tolerant.

But the spread of information has also caused isolation, each human with his/her own TV and computer, which leaves us out of touch with humanity in general in the physical sense. What we see on our TV screens of suffering does not include the stench of suffering or the real physical reality of it, and it's something we can tune out or become immune to. So I can't answer your question. I would love to look back 100 years from now and see how that part of modern society has played out.



Jan statted: "As somebody who was born on New York City and spent over half his life in the USA I am quite familiar with the racial, religious and homophobic pressures that have pervaded the USA from time to time. I am heterosexual, white and of no religious association so I have not personally suffered persecution but to deny its existence is to be abysmally ignorant or a hypocrite." -- Again, who is denying anything, and what does this have to do with the discussion? There are many social pressures in the U.S.A. that I didn't see in Europe, and many social pressures in Europe that I don't see in the U.S.A. Both are supposedly "Christian-based" societies, and one can see religious belief plays out differently in different societies.

Someone also mentioned that Christianity is declining. Not according to the numbers. Yes, it is certainly declining in the industrial world and especially in Europe; and growing by leaps and bounds in third-world countries where people have very little hope and are hungry and treated badly. The world is a BIG place, and consists of much more than our prosperous little side of it. That does say something very profound to me about Christianity's help in hopelessness, as well as the arrogance we the better off have, when in reality our prosperity is nothing but a thin veneer that could go wrong at any time.

Religions of all sorts usually grow when things look bleak and hopeless, and decline when there is prosperity and arrogance. Nothing new there.

MountainRose
September 7, 2004 - 11:04 am
. . . bring cohesion to the movement, much like our Declaration of Independence brought cohesion to the U.S.A. The church decided that to be a member of its body, this is what one had to believe. A simpler version that is less demanding but just as legitimate is the "Apostle's Creed" which dated from the very beginning. There was another document in very early Christianity, as early as the apostles themselves, which is called the Didache, a list of rules that all who called themselves Christian had to adhere to.

Christianity never was and is not to this day "just about the Bible", as some claim.

Language is also involved. Hebrew and Aramaic are mystical languages with layers and layers of meaning beneath the superficial written words. Even every single letter has symbolic meanings that echo on and on in various combinations. When it was translated into Greek, which is a precise mathematical language without layers of meaning, much of the original meaning was lost, which also caused endless strife in interpreting what was meant.

Personally, I love Aramaic, which is was Christ himself spoke, and when one reads what He really said and what was meant with all the layers, it actually begins to make much more sense than it does in any other language.

That is the way of language. Our language has a direct influence on our ways of thinking. I know when I speak German or French or English, my thinking patterns actually change. And so it is with Aramaic or Hebrew. Because of the limitation of language and the resultant thinking, one gets the many different opinions about meaning. It's inevitable and a human limitation that we have not been able to eliminate. Therefore the resulting strife.

Jan Sand
September 7, 2004 - 11:11 am
Your statement: Religions of all sorts usually grow when things look bleak and hopeless, and decline when there is prosperity and arrogance. Nothing new there.

Since the USA is considered one of the most religious countries of the west, what are the implications of your statement?

Bubble
September 7, 2004 - 11:17 am
MountainTose, two questions about your posts.

I always thought that Yeshua's mother was called Mariam or Marie and not Anne?

"The Bible was written in a mystical language". What did you mean?

I think Islam is growing much faster than Christianity in part because births are more numerous among the Moslems. Moslems are much more active and vocal now in Africa, than in the 30s or 40s when so many Christian missionaries arrived there. Even with local converts, convents numbers are dwindling. The missionary schools have to hire laic teachers.

MountainRose
September 7, 2004 - 11:41 am
Christ's mother was Mary. What I meant was Mary's parents, who were Joachim and Anne. Sorry about that. I got away from myself there. Glad you caught that.

By "mystical" I mean that ancient Hebrew and Aramaic had various meanings and allusions depending on how words and letters were combined. Each letter had a number of meanings as well as a numerical value, so the intent of the words depended upon how the letters were combined and everything had to be read not only for its superficial meaning, but its mystical meaning.

For instance, let me give you the "Our Father". In origina Aramaic what we translate as "our Father" is "Abwoon". "Our Father" is not only sexist, but dry in comparison, and if you had a lousy father who was unkind and abusive, those words cannot have a very kind meaning in your heart. Let me show you the word "Abwoon" which is Aramaic, when it is broken down and all the allusions that come with that:

A - A letter that means "the energy that was before anything began or was created, neither male nor female, and unknown". In ancient Hewbrew that letter is not even pronounced because it was before anything began.

B - Meaning "beginning", the beginning of time and creation and all material things that came into being.

woo - The breath that gives life and creates the energy for life to continue

n - The co-creation we, as created living beings, are capable of because we have breath and life.

This is just a very superfical and quick sort of insight, but you can see from that how much it differs from the "Our Father" and how much more meaning there is in the original word. All of a sudden God is much bigger and more profound than we ever imagined. When it was translated into Greek, that language had no such insight and we were stuck with the limitations of that language and every language since then. Everyone who heard Christ speak knew Aramaic, and knew all the echos of that language and needed no explanation for what he meant. The rest of us were not so lucky.

No wonder there's been endless strife about what was meant. And I think the more we look into it and the more we learn about the original language and intent, the more waking up we will do, and it will begin to make more sense and be more profound than anyone ever dreamed. Religion, like anything in the process of evolution, takes a long, long time because of man's limited brain. And anything that is not well understood and where meanings are obscure will cause dissent and strife, religion or otherwise.

MountainRose
September 7, 2004 - 11:46 am
"Since the USA is considered one of the most religious countries of the west, what are the implications of your statement?"

Superficial religion, as practiced in much of the U.S., doesn't count for much of anything in my book except TROUBLE with a capital "T". And to me that's what "fundamentalism" is, which is happening all over the world and not just in the U.S.A., and it is happening in all religions. I'm not sure why, but a superficial understanding leads to nothing more than superstition, stubborn rightness, hatred for anything that is other, and a total misunderstanding of the original intent of the founder of the religion.

One cannot blame the founder of the golden rule if people don't follow it. The rule itself is still a good thing. One cannot blame the idea of the family if one grows up in a dysfunctional and abusive family. The idea itself is still a good one. The way it is applied may not be, and intelligent people ought to be able to separate the two.

winsum
September 7, 2004 - 12:06 pm
they are not the same thing but here are hopelessly intertwined. . . and to my wayof thinking irrelevant. soooo . . . I heard that jews were enticed into christianity with the promise that they did't have to be circumsised. seems natural to me. except for possible health benefits, what does circumcision mean to a RELIGION anyhow?

MountainRose
September 7, 2004 - 12:10 pm
. . . eight days after birth. So they were already circumcised and were not "enticed" in the least. Those who were enticed were the pagans and the Greeks who were uncircumcised and did not wish to go through the pain (can't say that I blame them). But because Paul eliminated circumcision, which was a brilliant stroke of marketing, it caused enormous growth in Christianity. Circumcision was a social construct, for the sake of cleanliness, but that was a way a Jew could be easily recognized, and so it became a pattern for them to keep themselves distinct. That is all it was.

winsum
September 7, 2004 - 12:21 pm
is't that what I just said? Paul eliminated circumcision, which was a brilliant stroke of marketing, after all what infant can make such a decision for himself. Christianity still worked pretty much like judaism in those days. . . at least for a while. . uncircumsized.

Jan Sand
September 7, 2004 - 12:33 pm
MR

I wonder how you consign huge groups of people to the superficial and accept all the miserable people in, say, Africa as being members of the true faith. I have no real knowledge in the matter but please relieve me of the doubts I have of your expertise. Your dismissal of American religiosity as superficial must be a great surprise to all those people.

Malryn (Mal)
September 7, 2004 - 12:41 pm
ROSE, I don't recall ever telling you what I do or do not believe.

My instantaneous reaction was to think that nobody here, including you, has the right to say what you said, which I have quoted above.

Since I have already, way in the past, posted something about what I do believe in this discussion, and personal beliefs can be mentioned here only one time, I won't say more.

Mal

MountainRose
September 7, 2004 - 12:50 pm
. . . Africans are the members of the true faith? In fact, I never mentioned Africa at all, nor did I imply such a thing. It's something in your own mind that you put there. DO NOT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH.

As a matter of fact, I think superficiality is pretty much par for MOST of humanity, simply because we have time limitations, energy limitations, intelligence limitations, and even interest limitations, which is also why humanity is in constant conflict. Not understanding the deeper intentions and meanings leads to conflict. Most conversation is also superficial, like an endless cocktail party, which is one of the reasons I like the book discussions here---because at least we usually try to dig a bit deeper into what's really there and try to understand it.

My dismissal of American religiosity may very well be a surprise to those who are sincere; but that's still what I think. Feel free to question my expertise, since I never claimed to be an expert. I am giving my opinion from the extensive reading that I've done on the subject. And the interesting thing is, the more I read, the less I'm sure I truly know and the deeper the meanings become.

If you are trying to insult me and it makes you feel better, it's no skin off my nose at all. Just remember that I'm entitled to my opinion same as you are, and I would prefer you stick with the subject and not make this a personal issue.

MountainRose
September 7, 2004 - 12:56 pm
They were as follows: "However, there are few people right now who do not believe in a god, and who are strong enough to practice self-discipline, self-control and peaceful behavior without the rules and laws of a religion," but I did not mean to imply that this is necessarily a good thing." --- I simply agreed with the words in that first sentence as stated. You may have meant something that needs more explanation for me to understand what is implied, which is probably better saved for another time since it could get quite involved and side-tracked from the book. But sorry if I misunderstood you or implied anything about your belief. You are right, I don't know anything about what you believe except indirectly from having posted on some of the same forums over several years. I do apologize for any false assumptions.

Malryn (Mal)
September 7, 2004 - 01:15 pm
I think it is a good idea to look again at what ROBBY has posted in every single phase of this discussion of the Durants' Story of Civilization


robert b. iadeluca - 06:23pm Aug 27, 2004 PST (#2 of 94)
Books Discussion Leader

Quoting Durant:-"The preponderant bequest of the Age of Faith was religion."



"For this reason, it will be impossible to participate in this forum without discussing 'religion' from time to time.

"The following guidelines will be enforced by the Discussion Leader to avoid confrontations and digressions about personal religious views.



"1 - You may make one post describing your own beliefs related to religion (whether you have a religious faith or do not) in order to explain your viewpoint toward the topic at hand. Making additional posts about your religious beliefs or faith is not permitted.

2 - Do not speak of your religion or absence of religious beliefs as "the truth."

3 - Do not attempt to change another's conviction about religion. "

Comments about issues are welcomed. Negative comments about other participants are not permitted.



"Those participants who do not believe they are being treated fairly in this respect always have the right to contact Marcie, Director of Education. I will follow her guidance."

MountainRose
September 7, 2004 - 01:23 pm
. . . of the EVOLUTION of one of the religions we are discussing, and how that played out in society, including the translations, the social constructs which missed original intent, the adjustments needed to foster growth, and the various viewpoints and dissents, and why decisions had to be made for the sake of cohesion and growth. Nowhere have I even implied that all those decisions were right, or that they didn't cause a lot of trouble.

But OK, have it your way. To my mind, not discussing those aspects that make it difficult and where decisions had to be made by the people in power, is like trying to understand matter without trying to understand the atom or the construct of matter.

I'll be happy to leave this discussion, since minds seem to be made up.

Malryn (Mal)
September 7, 2004 - 01:37 pm
ROSE, if you click THIS LINK and scroll down, you will find in the Books and Literature Archives many posts about the Evolution of Christianity in the discussion of the Third Volume of Story of Civilization, Caesar and Christ. Such thoughtful posts have always been welcomed here by the Discussion Leader and the participants in this discussion.

Mal

Éloïse De Pelteau
September 7, 2004 - 01:57 pm
Now, please lets not have anybody leave because it won't be much fun anymore. We only just started three days ago.

What made me sick in Robby's last post on Durant was this graphic narrative: "Together with the evacuation, his bowels protruded, followed by a copious hemorrhage, and the descent of the smaller intestine. Moreover, portions of his spleen and his liver were eliminated in the effusion of blood, so that he almost immediately died." was this necessary to the Story and besides, I don't think it is even possible.

Eloïse

Jan Sand
September 7, 2004 - 02:03 pm
No, I am not in the insult business.

This was your statement:

Religions of all sorts usually grow when things look bleak and hopeless, and decline when there is prosperity and arrogance.

I picked Africa at random as a place where Christianity was spreading and the conditions met your requirements for misery. And I wanted to see how your statement fit with the religious USA. You disqualified the USA as being truly religious and I was curious as to how you justified your statement

Please unruffle your feathers. Let's be friends. Obviously we have different religious orientations but please do unto me as you would have me do unto you.

Jan Sand
September 7, 2004 - 02:06 pm
I read the book and it was a direct quote. It also strikes me as oddly gruesome and physiologically unlikely.

moxiect
September 7, 2004 - 02:12 pm


Robby

You said for me to let you know what I learn. We only started three days ago, what have I learned?

Man's interpretation on any subject is as varied as ever.

Jan Sand
September 7, 2004 - 02:20 pm
At the end of chapter three there are two significant observations.

The first is that Christianity declared doubt a sin and inspite of the many declarations by believers that there is no basic conflict between Science and Religion, this proclamation firmly lays out the basic conflict. Doubt is the basis for all science as it is only by destabilizing previous presumptions that new and more fruitful concepts arise.

The second observation is that a world weary of the conflicts at the beginning of the dark ages rejected reason in favor of faith as a retreat from intellectual and military turmoil. This is frightfully close to the mood which seems to be arising in the world today and I hope it does not presage a like descent.

Sunknow
September 7, 2004 - 02:32 pm
Whenever I dare post in a political discussion, I get in trouble every time......everyone wants free speech, but mostly for one's self.

I was about to post here about religion, but I've changed my mind. I already know I will say the wrong thing..... wrong for someone, if not for me.

I think I'll wait till things calm down again. It seemed like Robby laid it all out in black and white, but gray areas are always there, aren't they?

Sun

Shasta Sills
September 7, 2004 - 03:10 pm
I carefully read those links that Robby provided about the Nicene Creed. Since the concept of the Holy Spirit has always been a thorn in my side, I wanted to find out what various commentators had to say about it. Apparently, the subject has caused a lot of strife to others besides me. Did Jesus proceed from the Holy Spirit, or did the Holy Spirit proceed from Jesus? It gradually dawned on me what the source of the problem is. The Holy Spirit is some abstract quality inherent in both the principle of creation and the result of creation. When you try to convert an abstraction into a concrete metaphor like Father and Son, the metaphor is inadequate to express the original idea. The human mind grapples with abstractions and tries to clarify them by converting them into something concrete that it is familiar with. Then we confuse ourselves because our metaphors are inadequate.

I think Mountain Rose expressed the same idea when she said the Aramaic language is more suitable for abstract ideas than English is.

MountainRose
September 7, 2004 - 03:28 pm
. . . in line with my own thinking in spite of the fact that we seem to come from different corners. You said:

"The first is that Christianity declared doubt a sin and in spite of the many declarations by believers that there is no basic conflict between Science and Religion, this proclamation firmly lays out the basic conflict. Doubt is the basis for all science as it is only by destabilizing previous presumptions that new and more fruitful concepts arise. --- While I understand the reasons for making doubt a sin while things were being defined in the very early times, I also believe that ultimately it shortchanged Christianity as well as all the people living under its domain. Even today doubt is frowned upon, but I for one can live with doubt very comfortably, even abou my own belief. Nothing ever grows if there isn't doubt, and the creator (however defined) gave us doubt for good reasons, so that we would grow in understanding and not become automatons.

And that is where faith comes in. Faith, to me, is simply an acceptance of what has been decided so far about the basic structure (NOT the peripheries), without necessarily accepting that it is the end of any further discovery or understanding, or even change of those decisions if they prove to be unworkable or if better information comes along. Those who have no doubts tend to be self-righteous and intolerant. That's also something I can accept if they have no doubt for themselves only, and leave others the freedom to discover their own unique way with whatever doubt arises.

And therein lies one of mankind's basic problems, I believe---that things have to be defined in black and white. If you are right then I must be wrong. Which is nonsense. There are MANY rights and MANY wrongs and gray areas where a decision either way is difficult or impossible. So I see nothing at all wrong with accepting a certain religious belief knowing it is only a partial truth and that more will be learned as it unfolds, and be glad for the unfolding.

We might even learn in the end that atheism is right, and that wouldn't bother me either. If it becomes proven to be TRUE I could accept that (but it would have to be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to me). In the meantime, I PREFER to have a belief consistent with the society I live in and await further developments. It is merely a choice, neither right nor wrong.

The second observation is that a world weary of the conflicts at the beginning of the dark ages rejected reason in favor of faith as a retreat from intellectual and military turmoil. This is frightfully close to the mood which seems to be arising in the world today and I hope it does not presage a like descent. --- Yes, I agree. This is a phenomenon that is happening all over the world and I wonder why. From reading history I tend to think that humans often retreat into ignorance and superstition and leave no room for doubt. Does it have something to do with merely getting tired of conflict and wanting a "sure thing" and rest from doubt? If faith and reason can't seem to live together it is because humans don't allow them to live together, even though they belong to totally different disciplines and need not have anything to do with each other. Science is merely of the physical world and religion is of the metaphysical world. Again, either black or white, while from my observation, very little about life in general is black or white.

So we definitely do agree about some things even though we come from different sides of the fence. I also believe that Judaism, because it is much older and probably wiser, is much less intolerant of other beliefs. Maybe trying to eliminate doubt is just part of growth and development, like a teen who is testing his/her own boundaries????? In fact, sometimes I think Christianity is still in the late phases of teen rebellion, and Islam is in the early phases of teen rebellion, and hopefully both will settle down in the way Judaism has settled down as they mature.

We just happen to be in the middle of that long evolutionary process right now, and it seems to have gone on for a long uncomfortable time. But evolution of any kind is a long process and often goes on for centuries and thousands of years. Just because it isn't settled in our own lifetime doesn't mean that some day it won't be settled, or that it is invalid.

MountainRose
September 7, 2004 - 03:34 pm
What you said here is absolutely right ON: "When you try to convert an abstraction into a concrete metaphor like Father and Son, the metaphor is inadequate to express the original idea. The human mind grapples with abstractions and tries to clarify them by converting them into something concrete that it is familiar with. Then we confuse ourselves because our metaphors are inadequate."

This is especially true in languages that have no mystical content and are more in the scientific/mathematical/business bent. Some of these concepts are almost indefinable because the language we use is HOW WE THINK.

Knowing more than one language, I run into that all the time. When I say the word "Weltschmerz" for instance, which is a German word, there is NO ADEQUATE TRANSLATION, but any German you say that word to would instantly understand all the echoes of it. Literally translated it means "pain of the world", but in reality it means so much more---it means all the pain and suffering that has ever been for all time to the now and into the future, of all living things, including the environment, all the injustice, hatreds, wars, negativity, mental illness, etc., etc. Someone well versed in German would instantly know all the echoes of that word without needing any more explanation. When it's translated into English it loses all of that meaning, and abstract concepts such as religious ideals, are even more difficult.

robert b. iadeluca
September 7, 2004 - 04:05 pm
I have just come home from work, was pleased to find a large number of posts, but am most disturbed to find that a couple of participants here (no names) appear to be operating from emotion rather than the calm intellectual approach that Durant has taught us. We went through approximately 10 months of Volume Three without the sort of posts I see today where comments are being made about specific participants.

I would not like to remove anyone here but, if necessary, I will take action to have this done. I am glad that Mal made it a point to re-post my post about proselytizing. If she had not done so, I would have done so. It is not for anyone here to comment about anyone else's belief or lack of belief.

ISSUES -- NOT PERSONALITIES ! !

I would suggest, also, that we try to give our ideas in smaller postings and smaller paragraphs, allowing others to give their thoughts. My experience over the three years of being Discussion Leader here is that some participants are a bit "meeker" and refrain from posting when they see the same name again and again.

I am also noting much disgression from the topic at hand. This is explained in the Heading above.

Shall we all get back to Durant reminding ourselves constantly that this is a historical forum, not a political or religious one?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 7, 2004 - 04:20 pm
I would like to share one more thought. In the first three volumes, I was struck by the fact that although some of the participants had high degrees or extensive training, that the tone of humility appeared to be obvious throughout. Expressions of ego were extremely rare. Words were very carefully chosen with the other person in mind. This is what made it a comfortable informal discussion among regular folks in a living room rather than a stiff class in a college.

It is my hope that the atmosphere of humility will continue to be evident.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 7, 2004 - 04:44 pm
"Athanasius laid his case before Pope Julius I (340). Julius restored him to his see. But a council of Eastern bishops at Antioch (341) denied the Pope's jurisdiction, and named Gregory, an Arian, as bishop of Alexandria. When Gregory reached the city, the rival factions broke into murderous riots, killing many. Athanasius, to end the bloodshed, withdrew (342).

"In Constantinople a similar contest raged. When Constantius ordered the replacement of the orthodox patriot Paul by the Arian Macedonius, a crowd of Paul's supporters resisted the soldiery, and three thousand persons lost their lives.

"Probably more Christians were slaughtered by Christians in these two years (342-3) than by all the persecutions of Christians by pagans in the history of Rome.

"Christians divided on almost every point but one -- that the pagan temples should be closed, their property confiscated, and the same weapons of the state used against them and their worshipers that had formerly assailed Christianity. Constantine had discouraged, but not forbidden, pagan sacrifices and ceremonies. Constans forbade them on pain of death. Constantius ordered all pagan temples in the Empire closed, and all pagan rituals to cease. Those who disobeyed were to forfeit thgeir property and their lives. These penalties were extended to provncial governors neglecting to enforce the decree.

"Nevertheless, pagan isles remained in the spreading Christian sea. The older cities -- Athens, Antioch, Smyrna, Alexandria, Rome -- had a large sprinkling of pagans, above all among the aristocracy and in the schools.

"In Olympia the games continued until Theodosius I (379-95). In Eleusis the Mysteries were celebrated until Alaric destroyed the temple there in 396. The schools of Athens continued to transmit, with mollifying interpretations, the doctrines of Plato, Aristotle, and Zeno. (Epicurus was outlawed, and became a synonym for atheist.)

"Constantine and his son continued the salaries of the scholarchs and professors who loosely constituted the University of Athens. Lawyers and orators still flocked there to learn the tricks of rhetoric. Pagan sophists -- teachers of wisdom -- offered their wares to any who could pay.

"All Athens was fond and proud of Prohaeresius, who had come there as a poor youth, had shared one bed and cloak with another student, had risen to the official chair of rhetoric, and at eighty-seven was still so handsome, vigorous, and eloquent that his pupil Eunapius regaded him as 'an ageless and immortal god.'"

Christians killed each other at a greater rate in just two years than were killed by the pagans in the history of Rome!! There must be a message here somewhere.

Interesting that the doctrines of Plato, Aristotle, and Zeno were still taught in Athens. There must be a message there, also.

Comments, anyone?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 7, 2004 - 05:53 pm
Arius died an unusually violent death. Shortly thereafter, Constantine who supported him also died. I am surprised that no one here suggested poison.

Robby

Fifi le Beau
September 7, 2004 - 08:33 pm
Robby, when I was reading about Arius I immediately thought of poison. He evidently was not ill since he had plans for the following day. To die so violently could only mean one thing, and since poison seemed to be a favorite way of disposing of ones enemies, it is reasonable to speculate he was poisoned.

It seems that Arius may have been winning the argument with Athanasius especially in the East. If Arius was murdered as the scene suggests, then Athanasius and his followers won his argument not on merit but by the usual method of the time, murder.

The populas sided with Arius, and it took a slaughter of the people for Anthanasius and his ideas on Christianity to prevail. Durant says that for half a century it seemed that Christianity would be Unitarian and abandon the divinty of Christ.

It was to Athanasius that the church owes her doctrine of the Trinity. Durant tells us that it was won also by the slaughter of Christians by Christians.

Most doctrines were forged in blood, and this one follows the norm.

Fifi

Scrawler
September 7, 2004 - 08:53 pm
"Christians divided on almost every point but one - that the pagan temples should be closed, their property confiscated, and the same weapons of the state used against them and their worshipers that had formerly assailed Christianity."

To me this was an interesting statement. If Christians were only in agreement except for one point, how did they survive. Perhaps you really don't have to be in agreement to survive. I also see this statment that "democracy" can exist. If the Christians weren't in agreement except for one thing than they must have all had various ideals and been able to express them, isn't this part of what democracy is all about?

Jan Sand
September 7, 2004 - 09:47 pm
MR

I am happy that we seem to be in agreement in attitude. Please do not take offense when I am curious as to the basis for your statements and find the implications of some of your statements disturbing. I am delighted to discover someone who is willing to discuss these issues which appear to me to have a high relationship to the world's current problems.

Outside of this it appears that some participants seem to be put off by the intensity of our exchange. This is a bad thing and certainly not my intention.

The discussion leader was correct in pointing out that the point of this discussion is examining history but this can only be done from the viewpoint of current attitudes and how they relate to current events. History is valuable (at least to me ) for the perspective it gives on ourselves and we are deeply embroiled in the world today. So we are on a high wire act and have to be careful to maintain balance.

Justin
September 7, 2004 - 11:05 pm
Time and again, through out the centuries, religious factions have cut each others throats over questions of trivia. Whether Jesus was human or divine or both is something that was decided in human council.The edict was enforced by murder of opposing factions and the survivor became a saint.

In recent years John XXlll (Roncallo)tried to mitigate without removing the New Testament phrase,"Crucify Him." The phrase was said to have been issued by the crowd not the Jews. In the last analysis it was necessary for Pope John to issue an edict from another Council that contemporary Jews were not to blame for the death of Jesus. The effect of these words "Crucify Him" was to produce in Christian minds all over the world a desire to pay one back for Deicide. In Germany in the Thirties and Forties that resulted in the deaths of millions. Equally disconcerting was the tendency in other countries to acquiess in and or to ignore the "final solution".

Jan Sand
September 7, 2004 - 11:21 pm
It is perhaps impossible for humanity to rationaly decide cultural relationships. The responsibility for the death of Christ probably lay in the hands of the Roman governorship of the area and Pilate was, I think, recalled to Rome for the brutality of his administration. Even today innocent Muslims within the US have been treated brutally for the actions of Muslims with which they had no relationship. (Not to mention the unrelated Sikhs who have been persecuted for wearing turbans). History seems to confirm that whole peoples are regularly smeared for the reprehensible actions of a few irresponsible vicious individuals or groups. When you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

robert b. iadeluca
September 8, 2004 - 02:13 am
Thank you, Jan, for realizing how important attitude is in this discussion. I have been discussion leader for this forum for three years and, in the process, have learned many things. For example, I came to realize that the interest of various participants was, in general, inversely proportional to the size of the postings in front of them. Shorter postings seemed to gain the greatest interest and brought forth the greatest number of replies. I have been told numerous times in emails over the years by various participants that when a posting seemed too long, their eyes glazed over, and they just quickly scrolled by to the next posting.

Experience is a great teacher!

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 8, 2004 - 02:35 am
"Fourth-century paganism took many forms -- Mithraism, Neoplatonism, Stoicism, Cynicism, and the local cults of municipal or rustic gods. Mithraism had lost ground, but Neoplatonism was still a power in religion and philosophy.

"Those doctrines to which Plotinus had given a shadowy form -- of a triune spirit binding all reality -- of a Logos or intermediary deity who had done the work of creation -- of soul as divine and matter as flesh and evil -- of spheres of existence along whose invisible stairs the soul had fallen from God to man and might ascend from man to God -- these mystic ideas left their mark on the apostles Paul and John, had many imitators among the Christians, and molded many Christian heresies.

"In Iamblichus of Syrian Chalcis, miracle was added to mystery in Neoplatonic philsophy -- the mystic not only saw things unseen by sense, but -- by touching God in ecstasy -- he acquired divine powers of magic and divination. Iamblichus' disciple, Maximus of Tyre, combined the claim to mystic faculties with a devout and eloquent paganism that conquered Julian.

"Defending against Christian scorn the use of idols in pagan worship, Maximus said:--

'God the father and the fashioner of all that is, older than the sun or sky, greater than time and eternity and all the flow of being, is unnamable by any lawgiver, unutterable by any voice, not to be seen by any eye. But we, being unable to apprehend His essence, use the help of sounds and names and pictures, of beaten gold and ivory and silver, of plants and rivers, torrents and mountain peaks, yearning for the knowledge of Him, and in our weakness naming after His nature all that is beautiful in this world. If a Greek is stirred to the remembrance of God by the art of Pheidias, or an Egyptian by worshiping animals, or another man by a river or a fire, I have no anger for the divergences. Only let them note, let them remember, let them love.'

"It was in part the eloquence of Libanius and Maximus that won Julian from Christianity to paganism. When their pupil reached the throne, Maximus rushed to Constantinople, and Libanius raised in Antioch a song of triumph and joy:--

'Behold us verily restored to life. A breath of happiness passes over all the earth, while a veritable god, under the appearance of a man, governs the world.'"

Comments, anyone?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 8, 2004 - 02:40 am
Here are some descriptions of NEOPLATONISM.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 8, 2004 - 02:52 am
Here is a biography of IAMBLICHUS OF CHALCIS who, if I understand correctly, moved Neoplatonism from a philosophy into the field of religion. I was especially taken by this comment of his:--

"The Greeks are naturally followers of novelty and are carried off everywhere by their volatility, neither possessing any stability themselves, nor preserving what they have received from others, but rapidly abandoning this, they transform everything through an unstable desire of seeking something new." I heard comments similar to this while the Greeks in the past four years were preparing the Olympics.

Robby

Jan Sand
September 8, 2004 - 04:43 am
I am not well versed in history but it seems that later religion arose from animism which posited gods within trees and animals and rocks. The Greeks seem to have generalized this to general characteristics such as love or intelligence or power. The Hebrews with their invisible god decanted this generalization to an impenetrable figure of Platonic quality behind all these specific gods.

Maximus has nicely summarized this generalization but permitted the various aspects of god to be perceived individually. This attitude seems quite modern with the aspects of god perceived through abstract forces such as gravity, magnetism, and the sub-atomic forces.

Éloïse De Pelteau
September 8, 2004 - 05:12 am
"The Greeks are naturally followers of novelty and are carried off everywhere by their volatility, neither possessing any stability themselves, nor preserving what they have received from others, but rapidly abandoning this, they transform everything through an unstable desire of seeking something new."

It's funny but I perceive the Greeks differently, they have transmitted their culture in philosophy, in art and literature like no other nation to this day. But to seek something new is natural and stimulating it seems to me. Am I missing something here?

Eloïse

Malryn (Mal)
September 8, 2004 - 08:50 am
Fifi said, "Most doctrines were forged in blood, and this one follows the norm." This is how it appears to me, too. Murder to get what you want? Christian killing Christian? Is this what Jesus intended? I don't think so.



I have been in this discussion since it began two years and ten months ago, and never has this discussion lapsed into the kinds of name-calling slug fests that can sometimes be found in the Politics folders, and often the Religion folders, in SeniorNet. The reason for this is that the participants here have been careful and considerate about what they post.

Though there have been comparisons here between what is in history and what is going on now, we have kept to the guidelines the Discussion Leader set up, and have not, for example, named current politicians and what they decide to do, or ranted about our own personal beliefs about politics and religion.

This is the fourth volume of the Durants' Story of Civilization. It will take us a year to go through it. There are seven volumes after this. Continuing in the way we've been going for two years and ten months, seven years from now we'll still have been peaceably discussing history here when we close the cover of the final book.

Mal

Jan Sand
September 8, 2004 - 09:06 am
Malryn

If I have been out of line, I apologise. Evidently there are ways of discussing history without introducing perspectives from current ideas and how the history is antecedant to the way we behave now. If this type of analysis is offensive, I will withdraw. I have taken the book from the library and am now on page 80. I find it interesting and can get through it in about a month. If the general preference is that I make this journey on my own, that can be done.

Malryn (Mal)
September 8, 2004 - 09:20 am
Oh, for heaven's sake, JAN SAND, don't even consider withdrawing from this discussion; you've already made some valuable comments here.

We move very slowly through these volumes, as I mentioned before. People post links to pictures and articles which expand and enhance the discussion of the Durants' books, and we talk about those, too. Hang around, and you'll see what I'm talking about.

(If I were reading these books on my own I'd move faster, too, but I'd miss what we discover and conclude from the in-depth discussions we have here.)

P.S. You can buy a used copy of this book in good condition at www.amazon.com for as little as $5.50.

Mal

Rich7
September 8, 2004 - 09:35 am
In the chapter entitled "The Triumph of the Barbarians" a passage struck me.

"Every property owner was subject to rising taxes to support an expanding bureaucracy whose chief function was the collection of taxes. Satirists complained that those who live at the expense of the public funds are more numerous than those who provide them."

Fast forward to the 21st century. I recently read that in my state 65% (almost two thirds) of the adult population are employed by the federal, state, county, city or town government.

What happens when the parasite becomes stronger than its host?

Even then, well meaning individuals feel that there is no human condition that couldn't be solved by a new government program (and its attendant bureaucracy).

Durant went on to say that the taxation/bureaucracy situation at the time weakened the middle class and ultimately the Roman Empire, laying the foundation for the advent of feudalism.

Rich

Jan Sand
September 8, 2004 - 09:37 am
Thanks for the quick reply. I have basically lived alone for the bulk of my life and am never sure when my presence may be intrusive or when what I see as inquisitive curiosity is taken as obstreperous behaviour. Please correct me if I get out of line. I seem to have somehow misbehaved when I submitted my poetry to the Poetry Challenge group and the place there has become rather silent. Not something I enjoy. I'll hang around for a while.

Jan Sand
September 8, 2004 - 09:43 am
Rich

I find it incredible that two thirds of the population is employed in government activities. Can you supply a source for that figure?

Was it taxation that destroyed Rome or was it inappropriate use of the funds gathered?

winsum
September 8, 2004 - 10:25 am
not my cuppa tea, coffee whatever.

stated once on my way out. I won't waste my time discussing any religion since I condsider them all counterproductive to a good and fruitful life.

and besides I"ve got four other books going, at least two of them on the current situations here in the real world. . . . bye all.....see you in another age, or two. . . . claire

Jan Sand
September 8, 2004 - 10:32 am
Winsum

Sorry to see you go. I am not religious and find a good deal of religion objectionabe but there is no denying it is filigreed throughout all history and not a good idea to ignore.

Persian
September 8, 2004 - 10:33 am
RICH - sounds like you must live in or near the metropolitan Washington DC area - my residential locale for more than 30 years - where thousands of residents are employed by the Federal, State and local governments, as well as at numerous major universities in the area with strong ties to the Federal and State governments. Many residents have crossed the employment boundaries (including myself) from academe to Federal and State government, taking with us the lessons and experiences learned in one seector to introduce to a new one.

ROBBY - although some of the comments in recent days have seemed to be intense (or a bit uncomfortable for some), they struck me as well thought out and offered in the context of ways to read, review, learn, and share perceptions with each other. Intensity of discussion is not a bad thing and if nothing else affords others the opportunity to "stretch" a bit in their thinking and perceptions of a topic, whether it is the core topic of the discussion or one offered to complement or expand the thought process.

MOUNTAIN ROSE - I, too, have always enjoyed ancient languages and appreciated your comments about Aramaic and Hebrew. Coming from a multicultural, multireligious and multilingual family heritage, I've felt blessed to be encouraged throughout my life (personally and professionally) to not only study languages, but to give serious thought to the meaning of words or phrases in different languages.

My husband (an Egyptian professor of literature) and I discuss "meanings" frequently, often looking back at classical Arabic and comparing contemporary language usage. I correspond with friends and former colleagues at Chongqing University in China's interior region who regularly write about the differences in language usage from their grandparents generation to the present day or the differences between the Shanghai style of communication and that in the interior region.

Last year, my son had an opportunity to talk with several Iraqi Jewwish families during his deployment as a Christian Army Chaplain in Iraq. He was amazed to hear Hebrew with which he was not familiar, but treasured an opportunity to better understand the ancient Jewish communities near Babylon and Ur.

JAN - welcome to this marvelous discussion. It is without exception one of the best - IF NOT THE BEST - in the diverse collection of SeniorNet groups. The participants bring to their posts - and reflections on those of others - a broad range of backgrounds and interests, while beautifully offering the warmth and hospitality normally found in one's private home. I've enjoyed your comments and the depth and range with which they are thought through and posted. It is certainly true that this discussion does not have the aggressive context of the ones often displayed in Politics or Religion, And for this we are thankful. Yet your comments have offered a broader range for thought, as have those of MOUNTAIN ROSE, and I appreciate that aspect of your contribution.

And of course without the links to interesting maps and beautiful photos from ROBBY AND MAL, we would be much less aware of our topic and there would not be the richness which we so much enjoy. Many thanks.

Malryn (Mal)
September 8, 2004 - 10:44 am
A view of ancient manuscripts, including LOCI COMMUNES, A FLORILEGIUM by Maximus, quoting the Bible, the church fathers and more. Click images of manuscripts to see larger photo

Between Eros and Anteros: The Teachings of Iamblichus

Malryn (Mal)
September 8, 2004 - 10:46 am
I think the manuscripts linked above are amazing to see.

Hi, MAHLIA!

Mal

FAKI
September 8, 2004 - 10:57 am
Jan and all. I am new also and am trying hard to understand rules, customs and attitudes while I read the entries. The erudite old timers here surely deserve to carry on in a mode which they have found most effective; as well they have learned how this can work well. But, newcomers should be enabled to say what they think, make contributions related to how this "discussion" should continue, and be helped to contribute to the overall formulation of the "discussion" so that they are not alienated. Isn't this the more democratic approach?

Personally, I prefer a "course" not a "discussion." I like the facts, thanks. And so, I like the attachments, but not bloviation. Yes, keep comments brief, as far as I am concerned. I also wonder why the book content is repeated; do some not have books?

I have just about decided to read ahead on my own and cover at least some of the discussion and the attachments. My preference is to continue reading and not be held back. I can see that the discussion is meaningful for many (which is great for them) but not so much for me. So, there should be room for all of us and our various preferences for learning as long as we respect each other.

See you now and then as I move on with this fascinating book. And thanks for all the work that Robby and others do to continue with the Durants' books.

Malryn (Mal)
September 8, 2004 - 11:15 am
FAKI, it is not "the oldtimers" who set up the guidelines for this discussion; the Facilitator (Discussion Leader) did before the first discussion in November, 2001. ROBBY IADELUCA no doubt will be in later this evening when he gets home from his office (at age 83, he is an active Clinical Psychologist) to explain what has kept this discussion alive and well for almost three years.

Nobody is trampling on your freedom of speech here; however, discussions about more or less controversial subjects have a tendency to erupt into the verbal slugfests I mentioned earlier, unless there are guidelines and some structure.

The book is quoted for the benefit of those, who, for whatever reason, do not own or have access to it, of course. Read along at your own pace, by all means, but I'd suggest that you keep to the pace of the discussion when you post in here, please.

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
September 8, 2004 - 01:05 pm
Here's something interesting I just came across in Lynne Truss's book, Eats, Shoots and Leaves, and why haven't I thought of it before?

There was no punctuation in the books of the Bible. So, unless people heard the author read what he had written, readers and scribes made their own interpretation of what was said.

Truss uses this example:
"Comfort ye my people"
(please go out and comfort my people.)

and

"Comfort ye, my people."
(just cheer up, you lot; it might never happen.)

Truss says, "Of course, if Hebrew or any of the other ancient languages had included punctuation (in the case of Hebrew a few vowels might have been nice as well), two thousand years of scriptural exegesis need never have occurred, and a lot of clever, dandruffy people could definitely have spent more time in the fresh air."

So, what do you believe? Is it possible to know what the original author really meant?

Mal

Persian
September 8, 2004 - 02:27 pm
HI YOURSELF, MAL - it's interesting, isn't it, to think about how a tiny punctuation mark can change the meaning of even the simplest sentence?

I remember years ago when I first began to study Chinese in preparation for a visiting professorship in China, I was cautioned repeatedly that any regional accent I might bring to the classroom would alter my pronunciation and thus the meaning of my words as heard by my students and colleagues. One of my first "mispronouncements" (in tone) was the word for horse. And I wasn't even speaking about a horse! When I talked with one of my colleagues (a linguistics professor), he stressed that it was NOT a regional inflection, but the tone of my pronouncement. He also complimented me on my "non-accented English." Three cheers for us Californians!

I've often thought as I've continued to enjoy this discussion for the past several years, how neat it would be to have an audio hook-up and hear ROBBY reading to us occasionally in the language(s) of the times and people whom we are discussing.

robert b. iadeluca
September 8, 2004 - 03:48 pm
Rich, the discussion about the Barbarians begins on Page 22. We are now on Page 10 but will be there soon.

No one is discouaraged from reading ahead in the book. Enjoy it to your heart's content. You will understood, however, how confusing it could get when one person makes a comment about the first pope, another person speaks of Mohammed in Medina, and still another comments on the makers of the Talmud. Try to imagine us all sitting a living room, each one trying to get his point across, and bypassing a comment by someone else. That is the point of the GREEN quotes in heading -- to remind us where we are in our discussion.

It is not a question of being rigid. It has worked most smoothly for almost three years and (forgive the cliche) if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Claire:-May I submit to you that what has been happening for the past 1000+ years is the real world. We are here to learn from the experiences of other real human beings.

Robby

Justin
September 8, 2004 - 03:50 pm
Claire: Religions, particularly, Christianity and Islam, have been such a strong force in the development of the world as we know it, that to ignore it's developmental period is to miss an opportunity to understand contemporary problems.

I think I know how you feel about religions. Generally, they have done more harm than good but they are a powerful force in the world and one we must understand if we are to have any hope of limiting their influence in our lives. One may isolate oneself by avoiding their direct influence but their power is exerted upon you through avenues you cannot control.

Let me give you one example; If you are a diabetic, or have parkinsons, or other diseases that can be fixed by the replacement of a part you may be able to benefit greatly from stem cell research. It is religion that keeps us from progressing in this area of scientific research.

So we cannot ignore religion. It comes upon us whether we like it or not. That is why we must examine it carefully in this developmental period.

Sunknow
September 8, 2004 - 04:19 pm
Well, I for one, am not going anywhere. Like Robby says: "Try to imagine us all sitting a living room, each one trying to get his point across, and bypassing a comment by someone else."

Here I am, over here in the corner, sitting on the floor(I'm a floor sitter by nature), listening and observing more often than speaking (also my nature). But I will speak up when I have something to say!

If, as I read, I have questions, or thoughts about something, I jot down page no., and a quick note about something I may or may not want to talk about when the time comes.

Meanwhile, carry on.

Sun

Justin
September 8, 2004 - 04:26 pm
Once the elements of Mithraism, Dionysian, and Isis were absorbed into the new Christian religion the emperor tried to stamp out these pagan cults. He failed. The cults were too strongly engrained in the populace. Then another emperor came along who preferred the pagan customs to the new Christian cult.

All the while, neoplatonism was growing and sharing its concepts with Christian thinkers. When Plato spoke of One overriding intellect in the Timaeus he started a philosophical discussion that carried through Plotinus to Ficino. Plato,Plotinus,and their followers were invisible seat holders in the Nicene debates. It is they who sparked the great debate between Athanasius and Aryian. The struggle to create a divine oneness in a triad is rooted in neoplatonism.

We see a little of this today as the ideas of the Democratic Party have been absorbed in the Republican Party and vice versa. Both parties have tried to move to the center. Although there are still very evident differences between the parties.

robert b. iadeluca
September 8, 2004 - 04:52 pm
Durant continues:-"Flavius Claudius Julianus was born in the purple at Constantinople in 332, nephew of Constantine. His father, his eldest brother, and most of his cousins were slain in the massacre that inaugurated the reign of Constantine's sons. He was sent to Nicomedia to be educated by its Bishop Eusebius. He received an overdose of Christian theology, and gave signs of becoming a saint.

"In 341, for reasons now unknown, Julian and his brother Gallus were banished to Cappadocia, and were for six years practially imprisoned in the castle of Macellum. Released, Julian was for a time allowed to live in Constantinople. But his youthful vivacity, sincerity, and wit made him too popular for the Emperor's peace of mind. He was again sent to Nicomedia, where he took up the study of philosophy.

"In 351 Gallus was created Caesar -- i.e. heir apparent to the throne -- and took up the task of government at Antioch. Safe for a while from imperial suspicion, Julian wandered from Nicomedia to Pergamum to Ephesus, studying philosophy under Edesius, Maximus, and Chrysanthius.

"Suddenly in 354 Constantius summoned both Gallus and Julian to Milan, where he was holding court. Gallus had overreached his authority, and had ruled the Asiatic provinces with a despotic cruelty that shocked even Constantius. Tried before the emperor, he was convicted of various offenses, and was summarily beheaded. Julian was kept under guard for several months in Italy. At last he convinced a suspicious monarch that poliics had never entered his head, and that his one interest was in philosophy. Relieved to find that he had only a philosopher to deal with, Constantius banished him to Athens (355).

"Having expected death, Julian easily reconciled himself to an exile that placed him at the fountainhead of pagan learning, religion, and thought.

"It was probably at this time that in cautious privacy he accepted initiation into the Mysteries at Eleusis. The morals of paganism condoned the dissembling of his apostasy. His friends and teachers, who shared his secret, could hardly consent to his revealing it. They knew that Constantius would crown him with inopportune martyrdom, and they looked forward to the time when their protege would inherit the throne, and restore their emoluments and their gods.

"Amid all this apprehensive concealment a second summons came to present himself before the Emperor at Milan. He hardly dared go but word was conveyed to him from the Empress Eusebia that she had promoted his cause at court, and that he had nothing to fear.

"To his astonishment, Constantius gave him his sister Helena in marrige, conferred upon him the title of Caesar, and assigned to him the government of Gaul (355). The shy young celibate, who had come dressed in the cloak of a philospher, adopted uncomfortably the uniform of a general and the duties of matrimony

"The Emperor gave Julian a guard of 360 men, commissioned him to reorganize the army of Gaul, and sent him over the Alps."

Uneasy lies the head that wears the crown -- and perhaps the head that is about to wear a crown. Julian is given an opportunity to "grow" while he is harboring a dark secret.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 8, 2004 - 04:59 pm
Here are the ELEUSINIAN MYSTERIES.

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
September 8, 2004 - 05:05 pm
Justin as hard as I try, I can't imagine a world without any dieties, as it never happened before, to my knowledge, since the beginning of time. I mean all the world, not just individuals, to know how their life would live.

Yes Mal, it would be confusing not to have punctuation, but I read posts sometimes without any and I really have to read it slowly to understand the meaning.

Faki, I am not erudite by any means and I am still here, sometimes I wish I could leave but you can say I am addicted to it.

Eloïse

Persian
September 8, 2004 - 05:27 pm
What I've enjoyed about the discussion here is that the posters can offer their thoughts and express opinions based on personal experiences and/or beliefs without others feeling that they must be accepted for themselves.

For example, we have learned first-hand that the study of religion can be done from a non-religious standpoint - no conversion or "in your face" proseltyzing. Religion/beliefs has been a core component of global societies and to not learn about them would be a disservice to ourselves. How deeply one wishes to pursue that learning is, indeed, a personal decision. Truly, I believe that our strengths in this discussion are our differences and willingness to share them with each other.

I remember a conversation many years ago with a Russian communist, who asked me "what is so important about this Jesus guy?" It reminded me of when my then middle-school aged son asked (quite seriously) "Mom, have you ever heard of this Chaucer guy?"

robert b. iadeluca
September 8, 2004 - 05:28 pm
Constantius? Constantine I? Constantine II? Julian? Gallus? Confusing? Click HERE to see the family tree. Scroll both vertically and horizontally.

Robby

Scamper
September 8, 2004 - 06:21 pm
I'm new to this forum and am just startled that there is talk of throwing people out of here. I read what Mountain Rose said where she obviously offended Mal. I have to admit that I too read Mal's statement and thought she said she was not religious. I even went back and looked up what she said and thought there was more than there really was said. I wish Mal could have just gently corrected Mountain Rose. It makes me afraid to post. If I say something wrong, there's not an assumption that it is just in error instead of with malice aforethought. Yikes!

Scrawler
September 8, 2004 - 07:22 pm
"Dfending against Christian scorn the use of idols in pagan worship, Maximus said:

'God the father and the fashioner of all that is, older than the sun or sky, greater than time...is not to be seen by any eye. But we, being unable to apprehend His essence, use the help of sounds and names and pictures...yearning for knowledge of Him...If a Greek is stirred to the remembrance of God by the art of Pheidias, or an Egyptian by worshiping animals...I have no anger for the divergences. Only let them note, let them remember, let them love.'

I thought this was a very imortant statement by Maximus especially the last line. Aren't we in creating so many religions really trying to gain more knowlege of what God is like. And because we are human we resolve our ideas in various ways and thus we create through our art, song, poetry and stories what we feel God should be.

Malryn (Mal)
September 8, 2004 - 07:25 pm
Oh, my goodness!

ROSE and I have known each other quite a long time online; I have published her fine artwork in the electronic magazines I edit and publish (she's a very talented artist), and I consider her my friend -- enough of a friend to be able to say what I did, which, in my opinion, was not in any way harsh or impolite.

Carry on, folks. Scary Old Malryn is off to Pennsylvania to her baby grandson's baptism in the Catholic Church soon and won't have time for this, anyway, because I have to practise walking with my new leg brace, so I can get on the airplane that will fly me there.

Goodnight everybody.

Marilyn Freeman

Jan Sand
September 8, 2004 - 08:39 pm
Scrawler

A multitude of religions seems to me symptomatic of a basic human urge to discover what the universe is all about. People are continuously inventing fundamental ideas and then attempting to discover whether they are right. They invented demons, elves, flying saucers, atoms, God, phlogiston, the ether, the Higgs boson, electrons, etc. Some have been confirmed to the point that they can be assumed as valid. Some have not. Some have been rejected. And some are still up for grabs. That's why religions are fascinating.

Justin
September 8, 2004 - 10:02 pm
Scamper: Come into the discussion by reading and commenting upon what you see in the green quotes. They are the topics, not personal criticism or personal comment. We try not to allow personal attack and Robby is a good policeman. You will enjoy expressing your opinion on topics that are often excluded from "polite" conversation.

Justin
September 8, 2004 - 10:06 pm
Mal: I hope you are not pulling our leg. You ARE working with a brace and getting ready to fly to a baptism. Darn, that's good news.

Justin
September 8, 2004 - 10:13 pm
It is refreshing, though macabre, to learn that Gallus, the Caesar, was recalled from Antioch, tried for cruelty in front of the emperor and beheaded. Such actions make me think we are headed toward civilization instead of the dark ages.

Jan Sand
September 8, 2004 - 11:05 pm
Somehow the thought that we might be beheaded towards civilization is not a comforting thought.

Justin
September 8, 2004 - 11:22 pm
Our long term discussants should recognize Constantinople from its Greek days in the seventh century BCE when the site was called Byzantium. It was an important trading stop for the Greeks who had strong colonies all over the Aegean and the Med. Now we can see why Constantine put his capital there. The place was almost impregnable, especially, with a wall behind it.

Over the centuries the art treasure that was Greek remained in place in Byzantium through its many iterations and much of it transferred to the west when the city fell to the barbaric crusaders and later fell to the Napoleonic raiders.

Justin
September 8, 2004 - 11:31 pm
Jan; Beheading may seem like a strange way to head toward civilization but the reality is that prior to the beheading of Gallus leaders who were cruel and inhumane were encouraged to continue in that vein. This is the second sign in the Roman millieu that cruelty in rulers was not acceptable behavior. The first was the removal of Pilate. Then, during the Republic, Cicero, managed to accuse Varro, of cruel and unusual activities in Sicily. But these cases are an exception in this Roman society.

Jan Sand
September 8, 2004 - 11:42 pm
Justin

You have my apology for being seduced by the opportunity for word-play. Nevertheless the human tendency for opposing brutality with brutality which current civilization still subscribes to is a knee-jerk reaction that requires curing in the long run.

robert b. iadeluca
September 9, 2004 - 03:34 am
"Julian spent the winter at Vienne on the Rhone, training himself with military exercises, and zealously studying the art of war. In the spring of 356 he collected an army at Reims, drove back the German invaders, and recapturd Cologne. Besieged at Sens by the Alemanni -- the tribe that gave a name to Germany -- he repulsed their attacks for thirty days, managed to secure food for the population and his troops, and outwore the patience of the enemy.

"Moving south, he met the main army of the Alemanni near Strasbourg, formed his men into a crescent wedge, and with brilliant tactics and personal bravery led them to a decisive victory over forces far outhumbering his own. Gaul breathed more freely but in the north the Salian Franks still ravaged the valley of the Meuse. Julian marched against them, defeated them, forced them back over the Rhine, and returned in triumph to Paris, the provincial capital.

"The grateful Gauls hailed the young Caesar as another Julius, and his soldiers already voiced their hopes that he would soon be emperor.

"He remained five years in Gaul -- repeopling devastatd lands -- reorganizing the Rhine defenses -- checking economic exploitation and political corruption -- restoring the prosperity of the province and solvency of the government -- and at the same time reducing taxes.

"Men marveled that this meditative youth, so lately torn from his books, had transformed himself as if by magic into a general, a statesman, and a just but humane judge. He established the principle that an accused person should be accounted innocent until proved guilty.

"His reforms made him enemies. Officials who feared his scrutiny, or envied his popularity, sent to Constantius secret accusations to the effect that Julian was planning to seize the imperial throne. Julian countered by writing a fulsome panegyric of the Emperor. Constantius, still suspicious, recalled the Gallic prefect Sallus, who had co-operated loyally with Julian.

"Constantius was not unjustified. Shapur II had demanded the return of Mesopotamia and Armenia (358). When Constantius refused, Shapur besieged and captured Amida (now Diyarbekir in Turkish Kurdistan).

"Constantius took the field against him and ordered Julian to turn over to the imperial legates, for the campaign in Asia, 300 men from each Gallic regiment. Julian protested that these troops had enlisted on the understanding that they would not be asked to serve beyond the Alps. He warned that Gaul would not be safe should her army be so depleted. (Six years later the Germans successfully invaded Gaul.)

"Nevertheless, he ordered his soldiers to obey the legates. The soldiers refused, surrounded Julian's palace, acclaimed him Augustus -- i.e. Emperor -- and begged him to keep them in Gaul. He again counseled obedience. They persisted. Julian, feeling, like an earlier Caesar, that the die was cast, accepted the imperial title, and prepared to fight for the Empire and his life.

"The army that had refused to leave Gaul now pledged itself to march to Constantinople and seat Julian on the throne.

"Constantius was in Cilicia when news reached him of the revolt. For another year he fought Persia, risking his throne to protect his country. Then, having signed a truce with Shapur, he marched his legions westward to meet his cousin.

"Julian advanced with a small force. He stopped for a while at Sirmium (near Belgrade), and there at last proclaimed his paganism to the world. Good fortune rescued him from a precarious position. In November 361 Constantius died of a fever near Tarsus, in the forty-fifth year of his age.

"A month later Julian entered Constantinople, ascended the throne without opposition, and presided with all the appearance of a loving cousin over Constantius' funeral."

Some men are born great; some achieve greatness; and some have greatness thrust upon them.

A scholar trained in Christian theology -- a prisoner for six years of his life -- a student in Athens (the fountainhead of pagan learning, religion, and thought) -- finally secretly accepting initiation into the Mysteries at Eleusis -- a pagan who for years conformed in all externals to the Christian worship, and who even read the Scriptures publicly in church -- Julius now, at the age of 29, finds himself the leader of the entire Roman Empire.

As Durant says, the die is again cast.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 9, 2004 - 03:56 am
Here is a wonderful story of VIENNE in Gaul where Julian trained himself with military exercises. Click onto the small photo to get a larger very sharp photo of the Roman theater there. Note the houses nearby. Can you imagine spending your life living next to that magnificent Roman architecture?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 9, 2004 - 04:10 am
Here is a MAP of France. Note Reims near the very top of France where Julian collected an army and drove back the German invaders. I wonder if during WWI and WWII if the French living in that area called to mind how those in Gaul had won over the Germans 2000 years before.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 9, 2004 - 04:19 am
Here is a brief bio of the ALEMANNI, the German tribes that Julian fought and recapturing Cologne.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 9, 2004 - 04:24 am
Here is that SAME MAP. This time note the location of Strasbourg where Julian met the main army of the German tribes which outnumbered him, but led his troops to a decisive victory.

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
September 9, 2004 - 06:51 am
I went to France several times and the French prefer never to talk about wars, too painful for them to keep wars fresh in their memory. In the East around Grenoble, I noticed a strong German influence in their language and behavior compared with people living in the South of France where there is a marked Italian influence in the language, the cuisine that the warm and sunny climate that the Côte d'Azur enjoys.

When I see Roman remains and am in awe of them, the locals just shrug as if to say "so what, what is special about them". The ordinary people of the street are no more aware of the importance of Roman conquests that our ordinary people here for the most part.

When I travel I love to talk with shop owners, the person sitting beside me anywhere on buses, trains, on the beach and the were very friendly.

I am sorry that I have never seen the Cathédrale de Reims, it is a jewel of architecture. I will find a link to it.

Eloïse

Éloïse De Pelteau
September 9, 2004 - 07:39 am
LA CATHEDRALE DE REIMS See the size of the people as they stand in front of this massive cathedral. I would feel microscopic standing there and I don't think the Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris is as large at that, at least it didn't feel that way when I was there.

Eloïse

moxiect
September 9, 2004 - 09:10 am


Eloise: Thank you so very much for that wonderful link to the Cathedrale. It is a truly magnificant. The sculptures make you wonder how on earth did the artisans ever managed to do all this during the construction.

Éloïse De Pelteau
September 9, 2004 - 09:49 am
Moxiect, I went back to look at the 40 detailed images to get a second look. When we stand in front of cathedrals this size it is impossible to see what you can see on the web. This site takes your breath away it is beautiful. I will translate this introduction of the history I found in one of the links, but I think Justin can fill us up in more detail.

"Au V ième siècle St Nicaise faisait construire une première basilique dédiée à la Vierge. En 498 le roi Clovis y reçut le baptême des mains de St Rémi. Reconstruite au IXème siècle, modifiée, agrandie, détruite et reconstruite, la cathédrale de Reims ne sera achevée qu'en 1516. Si elle subît les malheurs du temps, incendies, guerres, elle fût aussi témoin des fastes de nos grands rois qui la choisirent comme lieu du sacre. Construite avec magnificence, elle s'élève aujourd'hui majestueuse au cœur de la ville."

During the 5th century, St. Nicaise ordered the building of a first basilica dedicated to the Virgin. In 498, King Clovis received baptism from the hands of St. Rémi. Rebuilt in the IXth century, modified, aggrandized, destroyed and rebuilt, the Reims Cathedral will not be finished until 1516. If she suffered the ravages of time, fires and wars, she also witnessed the crowning of great kings who chose it for their coronation ceremony. Built with magnificence, she stands in majesty today in the heart of the city.

It takes generations of architects artisans and workers to build such a structure and I am amazed that they eventually build something so grandiose even if the building of it takes over a century.

Eloïse

Malryn (Mal)
September 9, 2004 - 12:14 pm

Click here to read a very good essay about Julian, which has many, many links to other information

JoanK
September 9, 2004 - 12:16 pm
I can well believe it would take a century to build, even if not interrupted by wars, which it probably was. How many lives went into small details which you can't even see from the ground.The front door looks a tall as my house.

Scrawler
September 9, 2004 - 01:46 pm
"Men marveled that this mediative youth, so lately torn from his books, had transformed himself as if by magic into a general, a statesman, and a just but humane judge. He established the principle that an accused person should be accounted innocent until proved guilty."

The fact that Julian established the principle that an accused person should be accounted innocent until proved guilty shows that the world (as least in his eyes) is at this time is moving forward toward civilization.

Shasta Sills
September 9, 2004 - 01:58 pm
The Reims Cathedral has a delicate lacy look. Remarkable how a building could be made to look like lace.

robert b. iadeluca
September 9, 2004 - 02:57 pm
":Julian was now thirty-one. Ammianus, who saw him often, described him as:--

'of medium height. His hair lay smooth as if it had been combed. His beard was shaggy and trained to a point. His eyes were bright and full of fire, bespeaking the keenness of his mind. His eyebrows fine, his nose perfectly straight, his mouth a bit large, with full lower lip. His neck thick and bent, his shoulders large and broad. From his head to his fingerteps he was well proportioned, and therefore was strong and a good runner.'

His self-portrait is not so flattering:--

"Though nature did not make my face any too handsome, nor give it the bloom of youth, I myself out of sheer perversity added to it this long beard. I put up with the lice that scamper about in it as though it were a thicket for wild beasts. My head is disheveled. I seldom cut my hair or my nails, and my fingers are nearly always black with ink.'

"He prided himself on maintaining the simplicity of a philosopher amid the luxuries of the court. He rid himself at once of the eunuchs, barbers, and spies that had served Constantius. His young wife having died, he resolved not to marry again, and so needed no eunuch. One barber, he felt, could take care of the whole palace staff. As for cooks, he ate only the plainest foods, which anyone could prepare.

"This pagan lived and dressed like a monk. Apparently he knew no woman carnally after the death of his wife. He slept on a hard pallet in an unheated room. He kept all his chambers unheated throughout the winter 'to accustom myself to bear the cold.' He had no taste for amusements. He shunned the theater with its libidinous pantomimes, and offended the populace by staying away from the Hippodrome. On solemn festivals he attended for a while, but finding one race like another, he soon withdrew.

"At first the people were impressed by his virtues, his asceticism, his devotion to the chores and crises of government. They compared him to Trajan as a general, to Antoninus Pius as a saint, to Marcus Aurelius as a philosopher-king.

"We are surprised to see how readily this young pagan was accepted by a city and an Empire that for a generation had known none but Christian emperors.

"He pleased the Byzantine Senate by his modest observance of its traditions and prerogatives. He rose from his seat to greet the consuls, and in general played the Augustan game of holding himself as a servant and delegate of the senators and the people. When, inadvertently, he infringed a senatorial privilege, he fined himself ten pounds of gold, and declared that he was subject like his fellow citizens to the laws and forms of the republic.

"From morn until night he toiled at the tasks of government, except for an intermission in the afternoon, which he reserved for study. His light diet, we are told, gave his body and mind a nervous agility that passed swiftly from one business or visitor to another, and exhausted three secretaries every day. He performed with assiduity and interest the functions of a judge -- exposed the sophistry of advocates -- yielded with grace to the sustained opinions of judges against his own -- and impressed everyone with the righteousness of his decisions.

"He reduced the taxes levied upon the poor -- refused the gift of golden crowns traditionally offered by each province to a new emperor -- excused Africa from accumulated arrears -- and remitted the excessive tribute heretofore exacted from the Jews He made stricter, and strictly enforced, the requirements for a license to practice medicine.

"His success as an administrator crowned his triumph as a general. Says Ammianus:-'His fame gradually spread until it filled the whole world.'"

A non-Christian acting in a "Christian" manner? Durant tells us that the populace was impressed by his virtues "at first." I've been wondering what we look for in our leaders. Is there such a thing as their being "too nice?" Do we really want them to practice what they preach? As Leo Durocher said:"Nice guys finish last." As Julian's fame spread, I wonder if he became known as a "winner."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 9, 2004 - 04:13 pm
Here is a GALLERY OF BUSTS of Constantine, Constantius, Constans, Julian (with his beard!), and many other emperors you may find of interest.

Robby

Justin
September 9, 2004 - 04:51 pm
In one sense, it is a little early to treat La Cathedrale de Reims for the present building dates from a fire in the early 13th century. However, a Cathedrale has been on this site in Reims since about 400 CE when Nicaise chose to bring his building inside the walls. The earlier date puts Reims in our period but it would be amiss to talk about the High Gothic when we are now a millennium away. Forgive me, Eloise, if I put the beautiful la Cathedrale de Reims off for a later time. Its story deserves to be told in the milieu of the 13th century.

robert b. iadeluca
September 9, 2004 - 05:08 pm
The translation to English (done by machine) of NICAISE OF REIMS is atrocious but the general idea can be understood.

Robby

Justin
September 9, 2004 - 05:51 pm
Yes, Robby, that tale of Nicaise is appropriate to the period.

In the period of Constantine, prior to and after 313 and the Edict of Milan, Christian groups were small and fearful that special buildings called churches would draw attention to them so they met in one anothers houses.One such house, a Christian community house was built at Dura Europos in Iraq around 230 CE. There was a Roman legionary fortress at the site and the community house has been excavated. It contained an area that could be described as a church with a baptistry and a font.

After 313 CE, church buildings were constructed. One of the earliest formats was that of a basilica. A basilican structure consisted of three aisles, a raised apse fronted by a bema, with a dome at the eastern end and a narthex at the western end. Clerestory windows were used early to let in light but most interiors were quite dark. There are examples of these early churches which Mal may be able to bring up for us to examine.

There is a Basilica at Philippi in Macedonia built in the 6th century. SS. Sergius and Bacchus in Constantinople in 525 CE, S. Constanza in Rome in 330 CE, The Baptistry of the Orthodox at Ravenna in 450 CE and the Mausoleum of Galla Placidia at Ravenna, in 440CE. The Baptistry was done in the round as was S.Costanza but the Basilica at Philippi is the first, I think, of the format that was to prevail.

It is worth noting here that some pagan temples such as the Pantheon in Rome were taken over and adapted to Christian use. However, after some experimentation in formats the early Christians found the basilica to be suitable to their ritual.

Malryn (Mal)
September 9, 2004 - 07:03 pm
Image of the Basilica at Philippi

Malryn (Mal)
September 9, 2004 - 07:28 pm
Clerestory and Dome: Baptistry of the Orthodox, Ravenna

Malryn (Mal)
September 9, 2004 - 07:32 pm
Pictures: Mausoleum: Galla Placidia Ravenna and other Byzantine architecture

Malryn (Mal)
September 9, 2004 - 07:36 pm
Pictures: Sergius and Bacchus, Constantinople

Malryn (Mal)
September 9, 2004 - 07:40 pm
Picture: Constanza, Rome. Built originally as a mausoleum for Constantia, daughter of Constantine

Justin
September 9, 2004 - 10:38 pm
Jan; I think it is always satisfying to go for the bon mot when the opportunity presents itself. Your phrase was a nice turn and very enjoyable to me. If one is to be seduced, let it be in a form in which one can perform well.

Justin
September 9, 2004 - 10:46 pm
Julian met the Alemani at Sens in Gaul. I did some research some years ago at the Cathedral in Sens. I spent a week there on a problem and came to know the community and its environs fairly well. The battle must have taken place in the countryside somewhere because the village has very narrow streets and may not have changed very much since le Moyen Age. Sens is about fifty miles south of Paris on the Yonne River. Today, it sports a cathedral and a very nice inn with a good chef in attendance. Don't hesitate to make for it if you are in the neighborhood.

Bubble
September 9, 2004 - 11:56 pm
"a raised apse fronted by a bema"



Bema is the term used in Hebrew for the raised platform from which the Torah is read at services. Interesting to see it is used in English as well.



The French schoolsbooks, the conversion of Clovis by St Remi is an important date to memorize. We were taught it marked the end of the Carolingiens and barbarism and was the start of civilized world.



Thanks for all those interesting links! Bubble

Jan Sand
September 10, 2004 - 01:48 am
There was some discussion of language as not only a bridge but also as an impediment to comprehending historical writing. Beyond translation difficulties, even if the precise equivalent word may be found, the concept and cultural implications behind the word may be so radically different that gross misunderstandings can result. Richard Whorf spoke of different concepts of time within different languages which may result in bizarre miscalculations. I have heard that linguistics implied that the Greeks could not distinguish between blue and black. I doubt that there are physiological grounds for this.

robert b. iadeluca
September 10, 2004 - 03:28 am
"Julian's ruling passion was philosophy and his never-forgotten purpose was to restore the ancient cults. He gave orders that the pagan temples should be repaired and opened, that their confiscated property should be restored, and their accustomed revenues renewed.

"He loved books, carried a library with him on his campaigns, vastly enlarged the library that Constantine had founded, and established others. In a 'Hymn to a King's Son,' he gave his reasons for abandoning Christianity. The Gospels, he writes, in a preview of Higher Criticism, contradict one another, and agree chiefly in their incredibility.

"When Julian sought to restore paganism, he found it not only irreconcilably diverse in practice and creed, but far more permeated with incredible miracle and myth than Christianity. He realized that no religion can hope to win and move the common soul unless it clothes its moral doctrine in a splendor of marvel, legend, and ritual.

"He was impressed by the antiquity and universality of myths. He resigned himself to mythology, and condoned the use of mnyths to instill morality into unlettered minds. He discovered the need of sensory symbolism to convey spiritual ideas, and adopted the Mithraic worship of the sun as a religious counterpart among the people, of the philosopher's devotion to reason and light.

"It was not difficult for this poet-king to pen a hymn to Helios King Sun, source of all life, author of countless blessings to mankind. This, he suggested, was the real Logos, or Divine Word, that had created, and now sustained, the world. To this Supreme Principle and First Cause Julian added the innumerable deities and genii of the old pagan creeds. A tolerant philosopher, he thought, would not strain at swallowng them all.

"It would be a mistake to picture Julian as a freeethinker replacing myth with reason. He denounced atheism as bestial, and taught doctrines as supernatural as can be found in any creed. Seldom has a man composed such nonsense as in Julian's hymn to the sun.

"He accepted the Neoplatonist trinity, identified Plato's creative archetypal Ideas with the mind of God, considered them as the intermediary Logos or Wisdom by which all things had been made, and looked upon the world of matter and body as devilish impediment to the virtue and liberation of the imprisoned soul. Through piety, goodness, and philosohy, the soul might free itself, rise to the contemplation of spiritual realities and laws, and so be absorbed in the Logos, perhaps in the ultimate God Himself.

"The deities of polytheism were in Julian's belief impersonal forces. He could not accept them in their popular anthropomorphic forms. But he knew that the people would seldom mount to the absractions of the philospher, or the mystic visions of the saint. In public and private he practiced the old ritusls, and sacrificed so many animals to the gods that even his admirers blushed for the holocausts.

"During his campaigns against Persia he regularly consulted the omens, after the fashion of Roman generals, and listened carefully to the interpreters of his dreams."

Much to consider here. The contradiction of the Gospels and their incredibility. The similar incredibility of paganism. The need to clothe moral doctrine in marvel, legend, and ritual. The universality of myths. The place of sensory symbolism in conveying spiritual ideas. The anthropomorphism of impersonal forces.

Your thoughts, please?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 10, 2004 - 03:37 am
A great scholar and writer on the topic of myth was JOSEPH CAMPBELL. Read this brief bio of him. I submit to your interest the items in bold print, especially the one beginning "Read Myths." Would you agree with that comment of his?

Robby

Jan Sand
September 10, 2004 - 03:38 am
Having no religious inclination I am repelled by the doctrine that atheism should be disdained. Nevertheless, to modernize the Julian viewpoint that a deity is composed of impersonal forces is intriguing. If, instead of capturing the concept of a god in the substance of a king figure, the physical god is a meld of natural forces, the will of such a god would be the action of these forces. This makes such a god everywhere pervasive and its will becomes evident in that actions of nature. The whole traditional rituals of appealing to such a god with prayer or sacrifice must them be dumped as the only avenue wherein language is responded to by inanimate matter is through the very modern computer. But it makes god available to everybody everywhere and it is not necessary to refer to mythic rumors to determine its nature. Then science, which uncovers nature's laws can then lay out a new multilog. I am not advocating this point of view, merely pointing out its psychological possibilities to a humanity which seems to require a divine being.

robert b. iadeluca
September 10, 2004 - 03:40 am
A great scholar and writer on the topic of myth was JOSEPH CAMPBELL. Read this brief bio of him. I submit to your interest the items in bold print, especially the one beginning "Read Myths." Would you agree with that comment of his?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 10, 2004 - 03:44 am
Here are many definitions of the term "RITUAL."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 10, 2004 - 04:01 am
Here are some comments about CHRISTIAN SYMBOLISM. Scroll to the bottom for some examples.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 10, 2004 - 04:04 am
A very thought-provoking posting, Jan!

Robby

Jan Sand
September 10, 2004 - 04:43 am
On the thought that the Julian calendar was invented by Julian I found through Google at http://www.geocities.com/calendopaedia/julian.htm that it was Julius Caesar who worked that out but that Constantine in the fourth century AD gave us the seven day week. I wonder what existed before that. Since the Hebrew Bible indicated that the world was created in six days and God rested on the seventh I imagine that had something to do with the days of the week although their names seem to be totally pagan in origin.

Jan Sand
September 10, 2004 - 05:18 am
A further adventure with Google at http://webexhibits.org/calendars/week.html yielded the following information:

What Is the Origin of the 7-Day Week? Digging into the history of the 7-day week is a very complicated matter. Authorities have very different opinions about the history of the week, and they frequently present their speculations as if they were indisputable facts. The only thing we seem to know for certain about the origin of the 7-day week is that we know nothing for certain. The common explanation is that the seven-day week was established as imperial calendar in the late Roman empire and furthered by the Christian church for historical reasons. The British Empire used the seven-day week and spread it worldwide. Today the seven-day week is enforced by global business and media schedules, especially television and banking. The first pages of the Bible explain how God created the world in six days and rested on the seventh. This seventh day became the Jewish day of rest, the sabbath, Saturday. Extra-biblical locations sometimes mentioned as the birthplace of the 7-day week include: Babylon, Persia, and several others. The week was known in Rome before the advent of Christianity. There are practical geometrical theories as well. For example, if you wrap a rubber band around 7 soda cans (or any other convenient circular objects). You get a perfect hexagon with the 7th can in the middle. It is the only stable configuration of wrapping more than 3 circular objects. Four, 5, and 6 objects will slip from one configuration to another. Ancients wrapping tent poles, small logs for firewood, or other ciruclar objects might have come upon this number and attach a mystical significance to it. One viable theory correlates the seven day week to the seven (astrological) "planets" known to the ancients: Sun, Moon, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus, and Saturn. The number seven does not seem an obvious choice to match lunar or solar periods, however. A solar year could be more evenly divided into weeks of 5 days, and the moon phases five-day and six-day weeks make a better short term fit (6 times 5 is 30) to the lunar (synodic) month (of about 29.53 days) than the current week (4 times 7 is 28). The seven-day week may have been chosen because its length approximates one moon phase (one quarter = 29.53 / 4 = 7.3825).

Rich7
September 10, 2004 - 05:28 am
Robby, You asked for thoughts on Durant's discussion of Julian's paganism.

It was revealing to me. I have never before read a thoughtful historical perspective on paganism before Durant's examination of Julian's position on religion.

Being brought up Christian, the impression I recieved of pagans was that of salivating, child sacrificing, devil worshipers who danced naked under the moonlight.

Julian's ruling passion was philosophy, and the philosopher's devotion to reason. He loved books. He studied Plato. "Through poetry, goodness and philosophy the soul might free itself, rise to the contemplation of spiritual reality and laws, and so be absorbed in the Logos, perhaps in the ultimate God Himself."

Pretty good stuff for a "pagan."

Julian seemed to be to paganism what Constantine was to Christianity. One succeeded and the other did not.

They say that history is written by the winning side. I guess that goes for religions as well as nations.

Rich

robert b. iadeluca
September 10, 2004 - 05:31 am
Generally speaking, isn't being a pagan a person who does not believe in "my" religion?

Robby

JoanK
September 10, 2004 - 11:25 am
The material on Joseph Campbell and myths is very interesting. My sister leant me one of his books, and I was completely unable to get into it. We talk about the fact that I just don't "get" the appeal of myths, where she does. They seem to appeal to some facit of human nature which is well developed in some people, and not in others. Perhaps any of you who are interested in myths could try to explain to "myth-blind" me.

Shasta Sills
September 10, 2004 - 01:08 pm
The machine-generated translation in #173 is very encouraging. It proves machines are not quite ready to take over the world yet.

I like Julian. Most of those murdering Roman emperors were a colossal bore, but Julian was interesting. Plato said philosophers should be kings, but I thought, "It would never work; they're not practical enough to rule nations." Julian is the exception. Isn't it amazing how he shifted gears without blinking an eye. It's hard to believe that he only ruled for three years.

robert b. iadeluca
September 10, 2004 - 02:03 pm
As we are on the subject of the soul, here is an ARTICLE in today's NY Times which you may find of interest. I am posting it with the usual caveat that any reactions should relate to our current discussion about Julian and not to any present-day political platforms or names in the news.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 10, 2004 - 02:24 pm
Hurricane Ivan is bearing down on the Cayman Islands and one of our Story of Civilization regulars lives there.

Robby

Justin
September 10, 2004 - 02:34 pm
Campbell is right. If we attempt to see mythical elements in things that we believe, like the pictorial concepts in Christianity, we find that we have great difficulty in accepting these concepts to be myths. But if we look at the Norse myths or the myths of Native Americans we have little difficuly accepting those concepts to be myth. Why is that? Campbell tells us we accept our own beliefs as fact and can not quite grasp the message in familiar constructs.

Julian, says that the unlettered require mythological pictorials for civil discipline and peace of mind. Perhaps so. We have seen, time and again, in the history of mankind, an ability among rulers to keep the populace in line by religious ritual and imagery.

robert b. iadeluca
September 10, 2004 - 02:37 pm
Hurricane Ivan is bearing down on the Cayman Islands and one of our Story of Civilization regulars lives there.

Robby

Justin
September 10, 2004 - 02:38 pm
If George has not blown away I wish he would come in here and tell us he is ok. My daughter's house in Cape Coral has been hit twice and if Ivan hits it the place will be just part of the wreakage strewn Florida landscape.

Malryn (Mal)
September 10, 2004 - 02:39 pm
I hope this post will not come across as a statement of belief because, in my mind, it isn't. I begin this post with an apologia because I have never in my life been a dualist and have trouble sometimes understanding people who are.

What was there in history and men's thinking that made the body so wretched and the soul so fine?

In fact, what is soul? Nobody has ever defined this word in a way that seems satisfactory and reaonable to me. I have pondered about it, and do ponder about it, since what most people call "soul" I call life and zest for life.

I was married to a scientist for almost thirty years, and knew him longer than that. In the sixties he did everything he could to convince me that his analysis of the Transcendentalists was true and right. To him Transcendentalism meant a separation between the mind and the body. To him achieving and maintaining that separation was the only way to lead a good life. How is that possible, I thought, when the mind is part of the body?

Julian appears to have lived in a kind of ascetic way, as did other philosophers. Why, when life can bring so much pain and deprivation on its own, is it necessary to add self-inflicted pain and deprivation, and denounce all things carnal, in order to live a pure and spiritually soulful life? By "carnal" here, I am not just talking about sex.

How is it possible to achieve perfection through the means of deprivation? Why is it somehow sinful to enjoy what there is to enjoy in life?

I have been deprived the use of one leg nearly all of my life. Has this made me a better person; led me closer to perfection, enhanced and bettered what people call my soul? I tell you no. It has caused me any amount of trouble physically, emotionally, mentally, and psychologically. I imagine sometimes what it must be like to have two strong, useful legs. What freedom it must give! Walk a day in my shoes, or BUBBLE's, and tell me how it improves your view and betters your life.

As I say, I am not a dualist, and I ponder these things; probably will ponder them the rest of my life.

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
September 10, 2004 - 02:43 pm
JUSTIN, George lives in the Cayman Islands, and I haven't heard a thing about the effects of the hurricanes on them. I'll try to call his son in Durham and find out about George. If I do, I'll let you know.

Mal

Justin
September 10, 2004 - 02:46 pm
It's too bad the god of natural forces is unresponsive to prayer because I would like to tell him or her or it that enough is enough.

Justin
September 10, 2004 - 03:05 pm
Robby: Why don't you psych guys get together and put out a Creed on this question of duality? If the fellows in 330 could get together and decide the question of a troika why not decide duality in the same way.

robert b. iadeluca
September 10, 2004 - 03:24 pm
"Like every reformer, Julian thought that the world needed a moral renovation. To this end he designed no mere external legislation but a religious approach to the inner hearts of men. He had been deeply moved by the symbolism of the Mysteries at Eleusis and Ephesus. No ceremony seemed to him better fitted to inspire a new and nobler life. He hoped that these impressive rites of initiation and consecration might be extended from an aristocratic few to a large proportion of the people.

"According to Libarius, 'he wished rather to be called a priest than an emperor.' He envied the ecclesiastical hierarchy of Christianity -- its devoted priests and women -- the communalism of its worship -- the binding persuasiveness of its charity.

"He was not above imitating the better aspects of a religion which he hoped to supplant and destroy. He called new blood into the pagan priesthood, organized a pagan Church with himself as its head, and importuned his clergy to rival and surpass the Christian ministry in providing instruction to the people -- distributing alms to the poor -- offering hospitality to strangers -- and giving examples of the good life. He established in every town schools for lectures and expositions of the pagan faith.

"This pagan was a Christian in everything but creed. As we read him, and discount his dead mythology, we suspect that he owed many lovable developments of his character to the Christian ethic which had been poured into him in childhood and early youth.

"How, then, did he behave to the religion in which he had been reared? He allowed Christianity full freedom of preaching, worship, and practice, and recalled the orthodox bishops exiled by Constantius.

"He withdrew from the Christian Church all state subsidies, and closed to Christians the chairs of rhetoric, philosophy, and literature in the universities, on the ground that these subjects could be taught with sympathy only by pagans.

"He ended the exemption of the Christian clergy from taxation and burdenshome civic duties, and the free use by the bishops of the facilities suppled for the public post.

"He forbade legacies to churches -- made Christians ineligible to governmental offices -- ordered the Christians of each community to make full reparation for any damage that they hd inflicted upon pagan temples during preceding reigns -- and permitted the demolition of Christian churches that had been built upon the illegally seized lands of pagan shrines.

"When confusion, injustice, and riots resulted from this precipitate logic, Julian sought to protect the Christians, but he refused to change the laws. He was capable of sarcasm hardly becoming a philosopher when he reminded certain Christians who had suffered violence that 'their Scriptures exhort them to support their misfortunes with patience.' Christians who reacted to these laws with insults or violence were severely punished. Pagans who took to violence or insults in dealing with Christians were handled with leniency.

"In the end Julian's passionate perseverance defeated his program. Those whom he injured fought him with subtle pertinacity. Those whom he favored responded with indifference. Paganism was spiritually dead. It no longer had in it any stimulus to youth, any solace to sorrow, any hope beyond the grave.

"Some converts came to it, but mostly in expectation of political advancement or inmperial gold. Some cities restored the official sacrifices, but only in payment for favors.

"Many pagans interpreted paganism to mean a good conscience in pleasure. They were disappointed to find Julian more puritan than Christ. This supposed freethinker was the most pious man in the state, and even his friends felt it a nuisance to keep pace with his devotions. or they were skeptics who not privately smiled at his outmoded deities and solicitous hecatombs.

"The custom of sacrificing animals on altars had almost died out in the East and in the West outside of Italy. People had come to think of it as a disgrace or a mess.

"Julian called his movement Hellenism, but the word repelled the pagans of Italy who scorned anything Greek that was not dead. He relied too much on philosophical argument, which never reached to the emotional bases of faith. His works were intelligible only to the educated, who were too educated to accept them. His creed was an artifical syncretism that struck no roots in the hopes or fancies of men.

"Even before he died his failure had become evident. The army that loved and mourned him named a Christian to succeed to his throne."

Julian's how-to manual on how to build (or not build) a new religion (paganism). How to kill (or not kill) an older religion (Christianity). How to mix philosophy with faith.

How to reach the hearts of men through mystic ceremony. How to teach this thinking to an educated aristocratic class with the hopes that the lower classes would follow. (A trickle down philosophy?)

How to build a workable theocratic hierarchy. How to kill the old religion by having the new religion do more and better (setting up schools, passing out doles).

How to kill the old religion by withholding state monies, forbidding the teaching of religion in state schools, forcing the clergy of the old religion to pay taxes, razing the churches of the old religion, telling the proponents of the old religion to "practice what you preach."

Teaching the new religion bureaucracy the pragmatic tricks of the trade but personally remaining devoted to the inner feelings of the old religion and demonstrating this in public.

How to win friends and influence people.

Robby

Scrawler
September 10, 2004 - 03:29 pm
This is in answer to Mal's questions:

"In "Apocalypse" as in "The Escaped Cook," D.H. Lawrence condemned all religion at the time of Christ as having turned from "the old worship and study of vitality, potency, power to the study of death and death-rewards, death-penalties, and morals. All religion, instead of being a religion of LIFE, here and now, became a religion of psotponed destiny, death, and reward afterwards, "IF" you are good."

As I see it "paganism" was a religion of LIFE, here and now, while "Christianity" is a religion of postponed destiny, death, and reward of afterwards, "IF" you are good."

Julian shows us that a non-Christian can have many Christian virtues. I see Julian's practicing what Lawrence described as the "here and now" religion, but within the Christian ideals.

As to your question Robby: "...what do we look for in our leaders?" I haven't really come up with an answer as yet. I wonder do we really want them to practice what they preach?

Lawrence had his own answer to that question: " [In "Apocalypse"] he said: "What we want is it to destroy our false, inorganic connections, especially those related to money, and re-establish the living organic connection, with the cosmos, the sun and earth, with mankind and nation and family."

hegeso
September 10, 2004 - 03:49 pm
May I allow myself to quote Denis de Rougemont?

"A myth stands forth as the entirely anonymous expression of collective--or, more exactly,of common--facts. Therefore, a work of art-- whether poem, tale, or novel--differs radically from a myth. The validity of a work of art depends on nothing but the talent of its author. What matters about it is exactly what does not matter as regards a myth--its beauty, or its 'verisimilitude', together with all its qualities of singular success, (snip) But the most characteristic of a myth is the power which it wins over us, usually without our knowing."

I would like to add my own thoughts. Many years ago I coined a sentence, "Myth is the dream of the people; dream is the myth of the individual". And I think that myth uses symbols exactly as our dreams do.

robert b. iadeluca
September 10, 2004 - 03:54 pm
Hegeso:-Would you describe the group practice of mythology as "collective dreaming?"

Robby

Jan Sand
September 10, 2004 - 04:03 pm
It seems human destiny is mythcast.

robert b. iadeluca
September 10, 2004 - 04:21 pm
Jan:-I am tempted to groan but, in fact, that was pretty good!

Robby

moxiect
September 10, 2004 - 04:50 pm


Can a Myth grow out of a Legend or is it a Legend becomes a Myth?

Does one consider Any Religion a Myth or a Legend?

Prior to the written word - Stories/Myths/Legends weren't they passed down verbally from one era to another.

Here we are reading and discussing the Circle of Life and man's interpretation in trying to understand the past in relation as to what each of us perceive. Makes me wonder what the future hold and how we are going to be perceived.

Justin
September 10, 2004 - 06:24 pm
Thank you Jan. That was delightful.

Jan Sand
September 10, 2004 - 06:59 pm
I doubt that the ancient Romans or even the invading tribes would have much conception of how they are perceived today. It seems an idle speculation to wonder how we will be perceived and by whom (or what, considering the possibility of conscious machines or contacts with extra-solar civilizations) As a matter of fact, many of the more disturbed factions of our current social systems seem to have wild perceptions about themselves and the rest of us.

robert b. iadeluca
September 10, 2004 - 08:39 pm
Here are the names of some of the ROMAN GODS listed under what we now call Mythology but were important to Julian as he tried to return the populace to Paganism.

Robby

Jan Sand
September 10, 2004 - 09:34 pm
The description tempts me to suspect the holiday was converted to Christmas by the Christians.

robert b. iadeluca
September 11, 2004 - 05:12 am
"Julian's last great dream was to rival Alexander and Trajan -- to plant the Roman standards in the Persian capitals, and end once and for all the Persian threat to the security of the Roman Empire. Eagerly he organized his army, chose his officers, repaired the frontier fortresses, provisioned the towns that would match his route to victory.

"In the fall of 362 he came to Antioch, and gathered his troops. The merchants of the city took advantage of the influx to raise prices. Julian called in the economic leaders and pled with them to restrain their profit seeking. They promised, but did not perform. He had 400,000 modii (pecks) of corn brought in from other cities in Syria and Egypt. The merchants protested that his prices made profit impossible. They secretly bought up the imported corn, took it and their goods to other towns, and Antioch found itself with much money and no food.

"Soon the populace denounced Julaian for his interference. The wits of Antioch made fun of his beard and of his laborious attendance upon dead gods. The famous park called Daphne, once a sacred shrine of Apollo, had been changed into an amusement resort. Julian ordered the amusements ended and the shrine restored. This had hardly been completed when a fire consumed it. Suspecting Christian incendiarism, Julian closed the cathedral of Anbtioch and confiscated its wealth.

"The Emperor's one consolation in Antioch was his 'feast of reason' with Libanius.

"At last the army was ready, and in March 363 Julian began his campaign. He led his forces across the Euphrates, then across the Tigris, pursued the retreating Persians, but was harassed and almost frustrated by their 'scorched earth' policy of burning all crops in their wake. Time and again his soldiers were near starvation. Persian women of youth and beauty were among his captives. He never disturbed their privacy, and allowed no one to dishonor them.

Under his able generalship, his troops advanced to the very gates of Cresiphon, and laid siege to it but the inability to get food compelled retreat. Shapur II chose two Persian nobles, cut off their noses, and bade them go to Julian in the guise of men who had deserted because of this cruel indignity, and lead him into a desert. They obeyed. Julian trusted them, and followed them, with his army, for twenty miles into a waterless waste.

"While he was extricating his men from this snare they were attacked by a force of Persians. The attack was repulsed and the Persians fled. Julian, careless of his lack of armor, was foremost in their pursuit. A javelin entered his side and pierced his liver. He fell from his horse and was carried to a tent, where his physicians warned him that he had but a few hours to live. Libanius alleged that the weapon came from a Christian hand, and it was noted that no Persian claimed the reward that Shapur had promised for the slaying of the Emperor.

"Some Christians, like Sozomen, agreed with Libanius' account, and praised the assassin 'who for the sake of God and religion had performed so bold a deed.'

"The army, still in peril, required a commander. Its leaders chose Jovian, captain of the imperial guard. The new emperor made peace with Persia by surrendering four of the five satrapies that Diocletian had seizd some seventy years before.

"Jovian persecuted no one but he promptly transferred state support from the pagan temples to the Church. The Christians of Antioch celebratd with public rejoicings the death of the pagan Emperor. For the most part, however, the victorious Christian leaders preached to their congregations a generous forgetfulness of the injuries that Christianity had borne.

"Eleven centuries would pass before Hellenism would have another day."

Any comment about this military and religious conflict which took place in the very same area that is in the news these days?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 11, 2004 - 05:30 am
Here is an EXCELLENT MAP of the Eastern Roman Empire including the area of Mesopotamis being discussed, and indicating the location of Antioch at the coast of the Mediterranean Sea and the Tigris and Euphrates to the East.

Allow time for downloading. It is a large map. Use your horizontal and vertical scroll.

Robby

moxiect
September 11, 2004 - 07:13 am


Jan

Many of the Christian holidays incorporated the "pagan" holidays!

robert b. iadeluca
September 11, 2004 - 07:19 am
Any comments as we end the days of Julian?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
September 11, 2004 - 07:29 am
Ctesiphon lies 25 miles below Baghdad. Here's some information about it.



Julian and the Jews

Persian
September 11, 2004 - 01:35 pm
I'm enjoying the discussion immensely. I am reminded from Mal's link about Ctesiphon, that my son spent a considerable amount of time in the area where the city was located during his tour in Iraq last year. And as I read the link, I recalled that a truly wonderful Persian friend at the Lirbary of Congress (who was so instrumental in furthering my understanding of the ancient sites) was named Khosrau.

Anyone doing anything special to honor today's anniversary of 9/11?

robert b. iadeluca
September 11, 2004 - 02:00 pm
I can guarantee you that next week and the week after I will have new patients coming to me with diagnoses of Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome. It happens every year. Officials, who in all good faith, keep having 9/11 memorial ceremonies, candle vigils, repeat TV programs, etc. etc. rekindle the visions in susceptile people and they have flash backs. And most of these patients were not in New York at the time. They had merely seen all those TV repetitions in 2001. Now they can not escape that in their mind.

Such annual memorials as these may be helpful to some people, but not all.

Robby

hegeso
September 11, 2004 - 02:02 pm
Robby, answering your post 209, I would like to change the expression "collective dreaming" into creation of archetypal characters and situations by the collective unconscious. You know more than I about Jung's psychology. I cannot prove that he was right, but the theory seems to work.

robert b. iadeluca
September 11, 2004 - 02:32 pm
Click HERE to read about grieving parents.

Robby

Justin
September 11, 2004 - 03:51 pm
9/11? Why are we not going after the guys who did the deed?

Persian
September 11, 2004 - 05:21 pm
It was interesting for me to learn from my son last year that in the planning of the troop deployment, the military planners and strategists studied the ancient topography, the changing weather patterns and even reviewed the ancient battles near the Plain of Karbala. In many ways, they did the same this year before they deployed to Afghanistan, where they are indeed hunting the masterminds of the 9/11 attack. As the weather changes from fiercely hot summer to ice cold winter and the force moves throughout the mountainous terrain, they are able to seek assistance from world class mountaineers - not only the native Northern Pashtun tribes and clans, but the famous Gurkas with their history of outstanding service in the Hindu Kush. And for his own knowledge, my son carried with him extensive notes which he made while reading two volumes of The Story of Civilization.

robert b. iadeluca
September 11, 2004 - 05:32 pm
Now that's what I like to hear -- the power of the words of the Durants!

Robby

Persian
September 11, 2004 - 07:06 pm
ROBBY - you might also be interested to know that when my son spent an overnight with us in Maryland last December (enroute from Iraq to his home base in NC for a two week sojourn with his family), he was unable to sleep. So, using my "handle" he spent a considerable time "lurking" in The Story of Civilization. Not only did he have his own notes from reading the texts, but also the comments of the dedicated posters in this discussion.

Jan Sand
September 11, 2004 - 08:25 pm
It seems that Julian's was the last effective stand of the old religion with a humanistic element against the rise of Christianity and the fall of a centralized coherent social and political establishment. Of course many of the individual elements of ancient Rome and Greece survived to this day in important ways but somehow there is the analogy of an individual human brain surrendering to the strange chaos of dreaming sleep wherein new elements acquired during the day cause disarray of previous established order and must be integrated into the sense of the entire system before the individual awakes and is prepared to face an uncertain universe in the morning which, by analogy, would be the Renaissance.

JoanK
September 11, 2004 - 08:51 pm
MAHLIA: in the poetry discussion, several 9/11 poems are being posted.

9/11 POEMS

Justin
September 11, 2004 - 11:06 pm
Jan: you make me stretch to grasp your message. Your description of Julian as the last stand against Christianity is quite clear but the analogy using individual dreams integrating some elements of conflict and ending at the Renaisance is a package not easy to grasp. I suppose it would help if I read more of Freud. Siggy and I have made only a slight acquaintance.

There is one more recalcitrant emperor to come. His name is Elagabalus and he brings the sun god to the fore. Louis Quartorze, you will recall, also brought forth the sun god but in his own person.

The Christians, in their march to full control, faced few real impediments. Julian and Elegabalus were formidable but each for a short time only. The Gothic invasions were another impediment but they too gave way in time.

Jan Sand
September 12, 2004 - 12:15 am
My comment on Julian concerned the mechanics of the human mind. Although I arrived at this conception some years ago, recent psychological research on the purpose of sleep confirmed my speculation that people need to sleep for, among other things, to revise their total mental stance by incorporating new data obtained during the previous day. I doubt Freud mentioned this.

In like manner, the huge advances made by Greek and Roman civilizations were likely to be too much to be accommodated by surrounding cultures without a period wherein the osmosis of the memes involved could permit the infusion of the concepts to a larger portion of humanity.

I do not mean to imply that Christianity was a totally dead and sterile period but there was a period when free thinking was discouraged and petrified by religious totalitarianism, much as exists in much of the Muslim world today. The Renaissance cracked this.

Bubble
September 12, 2004 - 01:26 am
Post 223 and 225, Robby.



We go throught the same scenario here, year after year when a full 48H of TV is dedicated to the Holocaust commemorative service and remembrances. Survivors tell their stories, texts by the vitims or their kin are read. Many first, 2nd and sometimes 3rd generation after the the victims will require professional help in the following days, to deal with the trauma of the recurring pictures. They don't seem able to turn the TV or radio off either.



Those days I live in thought with such a survivor I met and befriend in the Ulpan when I came to Israel. I haven't heard from her for the last 35y, but on those dates she is with me, or I am her. I was the first one with whom she started to open up and talk about what she had been through. 9/11 brings about the same helpless feeling.
Bubble

Éloïse De Pelteau
September 12, 2004 - 03:25 am
Bubble, The license plates in Quebec all have the inscription "Je me souviens" (I remember), but I don't know what they want to remember. Is it the conquest? It must be but, we have to adjust to it otherwise hate would persist and passed from generation to generation as you mentioned. Everybody in the past has suffered persecution and Jews more than others. But to revive the holocaust year after year will keep the hate alive as long as it is on television.

I know the holocaust was horrendous, but I believe 60 years is enough grieving. It is the same with all the atrocities that people do to each other in the name of this belief or that ideology. To me now is when we are forging our future and history is only a tool to avoid past mistakes, not that we always learn from it, but at least we know that this generation is no better than the ones in the past.

Mahlia, it's nice to know that your son read two volumes of Story of Civilization. I wish he could post from time to time, but I am sure he has more important things to do right now as an army Chaplain in Afghanistan.

Eloïse

Jan Sand
September 12, 2004 - 04:00 am
Considering the regular recurrence of massacres throughout the world it seems that remembering is not enough.

robert b. iadeluca
September 12, 2004 - 04:32 am
The triumph of the Barbarians

325 - 476

robert b. iadeluca
September 12, 2004 - 04:54 am
A reminder to everyone, especially our newcomers, to scroll slowly through the Heading each time you enter, pay attention to Durant's words, and to especially watch the GREEN quotes which are periodically changed. These quotes show you where we are in the book and help to keep us on topic.

"Persia was but one sector of a 10,000-mile frontier through which, at any point and at any moment, this Roman Empire of a hundred nations might be invaded by tribes unspoiled by civilization and envious of its fruits. The Persians in themselves were an insoluble problem. They were growing stronger, not weaker. Soon they would reconquer nearly all that Darius I had held a thousand years before.

"West of them were the Arabs, mostly penniless Bedouins. The wisest statesman would have smiled at the notion that these somber nomads were destined to capture half the Roman Empire, and all Persia too.

"South of the Roman provinces in Africa were Ethiopians, Libyans, Berbers, Numidians, and Moors, who waited in fierce patience for the crumbling of imperial defense or morale. Spain seemed safely Roman behind its forbidding mountains and protecting seas. None surmised that it would become in this fourth century German, and in the eighth Mohammedan.

"Gaul now surpassed Italy in Roman pride, in order and wealth, in Latin poetry and prose. But in every generation it had to defend itself against Teutons whose women were more fertile than their fields.

"Only a small imperial garrison cold be spared to protect Roman Britain from Scots and Picts on the west and north and from Norse or Saxon pirates on the east or south. Norway's shores were a chain of pirate dens. Its people found war less toilsome than tillage, and counted the raiding of alien coasts a noble occupation for hungry stomachs or leisure days.

"In southern Sweden and its isles the Goths claimed to have had their early home. Possibly they were indigenous to the region of the Vistula. In any case they spread as Visigoths southward to the Danube, and as Ostrogoths they settled between the Dniester and the Don.

"In the heart of Europe -- bounded by the Vistula, the Danube, and the Rhine -- moved the restless tribes that were to remake the map, and rename the nations of Europe:-Thuringians, Burgundians, Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Frisians, Gepidae, Quadi, Vandals, Alemmani, Suevi, Lombards, Franks. Against these ethnic tides the Empire had no protective wall except in Britain, but merely an occasional fort and garrison along the roads or rivers that marked the frontier limit (limes) of the Roman realm.

"The higher birth rate outside the Empire and the higher standard of living within it, made immigration or invasion a manifest eestiny for the Roman Empire then as for North America today."

Much to discuss here!

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 12, 2004 - 05:05 am
Here is a MAP OF FOURTH CENTURY EUROPE showing the location of some of the tribes and the directions of their migrations.

Robby

Jan Sand
September 12, 2004 - 05:12 am
Is birth rate an indicator of who will be conquered and who will make the conquest? The low birth rate in the west today might be a warning signal.

Rich7
September 12, 2004 - 06:27 am
ELOISE, I often wondered what the "Je me souviens" on a Quebec license plate suggested that the driver of that car remembered. You are a Quebecois. What ARE you supposed to remember?

Rich

robert b. iadeluca
September 12, 2004 - 08:36 am
Here is some rather detailed information about AFRICAN TRIBES in Ethopia in the Fourth Century, some of which appeared to have Semitic connections. Perhaps Bubble may have some comments about this.

Robby

Persian
September 12, 2004 - 08:43 am
Justin - James Webb's article in today's edition of PARADE Magazine answers your question from post #226 about "9/11? Why are we not going after the guys who did the deed?"

Thanks to PARADE, Moms like me can more readily answer the question "Parents, do you know where your children are?" Yup, in the ancient mountains of Northern Afghanistan.

Persian
September 12, 2004 - 08:57 am
Here is a link to the History of Ethiopian Jews. I have always been intrigued by their history, since one of my closest university colleagues is of this heritage. Surprisingly, I met several Ethiopian Jews working in Shanghai in the mid-eighties, and there is a substantial community of Ethiopian Jews in the metropolitan Washington DC area.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/ejhist.html

robert b. iadeluca
September 12, 2004 - 09:26 am
Here is some rather detailed information about AFRICAN TRIBES in Ethopia in the Fourth Century, some of which appeared to have Semitic connections. Perhaps Bubble may have some comments about this.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 12, 2004 - 09:42 am
Click HERE for the origin of the Berbers.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 12, 2004 - 09:48 am
Here is some well written explanatory material about the NUMEROUS TEUTONIC TRIBES.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 12, 2004 - 10:05 am
"In calling the German tribes barbari, the Greeks and Romans meant no compliment. The word was probably brother to the Sanskrit varvara, which meant a rough and letterless churl. It appears again in Berber. But it was not for nothing that for five centuries, the Germans had touched Roman civilization in trade and war. By the fourth century, they had long since adoped writing and a government of stable laws.

"If we except the Merovingian Franks, their sexual morals were superior to those of the Romans and the Greeks. Though they lacked the civility and graces of a cultured people, they often shamed the Romans by their courage, hospitality, and honesty. They were cruel, but hardly more so than the Romans. They were probably shocked to find that Roman law permitted the torturing of freemen to extort confessions or testimony.

"They were individualistic to the point of chaos, while the Romans had now been tamed to sociability and pace. In their higher ranks they showed some appreciation of literature and art. Stilicho, Ricimer, and other Germans entered fully into the cultural life of Rome, and wrote a Latin that Symmachus professed to enjoy.

"In general the invaders -- above all, the Goths -- were civilized enough to admire Roman civilization as higher than their own, and to aim rather at acquiring it than at destroying it. For two centuries they asked little more than admission to the Empire and its unused lands. They shared actively in its defense.

"If we continue to refer to the German tribes of the fourth and fifth centuries as barbarians, it will be in surrender to the convenience of custom, and with these reservaions and apologies."

Is this, then, how we should define being civilized? The use of writing? A government of stable laws? A less open sexual behavior? Refraining from torturing to extort confessions? Greater courage? Greater hospitality? Greater honesty? Emphasis on sociability rather than indivualism?

Robby

Jan Sand
September 12, 2004 - 10:34 am
It seems ironic than the ancient Germans would be shocked to discover the uncivilized practices of the current US CIA and FBI devise ways to avoid American civil liberties and many local police departments also bend regulations to torture confessions from their suspects.

hegeso
September 12, 2004 - 11:04 am
Jan wrote, "My comment on Julian concerned the mechanics of the human mind. Although I arrived at this conception some years ago, recent psychological research on the purpose of sleep confirmed my speculation that people need to sleep for, among other things, to revise their total mental stance by incorporating new data obtained during the previous day. I doubt Freud mentioned this.

Just a fleeting thought: animals sleep and dream as well. I think that what you wrote is true, but there must be more to it.

Bubble
September 12, 2004 - 11:39 am
The Ethiopians who arrived here in the big mass immigration operation (Moshe and later Shlomo)came from what we call Land of Kush. They were observant religious Jews in all Torah rules and traditions, but UP TO THE DESTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE. All the holidays or traditions added later were unknown to them. Their elders or Kessim were in mourning when they were told that the Temple had been destroyed and they could not go on a pilgrimage to pray there.



Kushi in Hebrew means dark-skinned or negro. The Ethiopians really believe that the Ark of Covenant is located in Aksum and that it will be returned to its rightful place in the Temple when it will be rebuilt.



About the Lemba, I heard only what was in that article and of course of the surprising discovery that their DNA matched exactly the DNA of our Cohanim (families named Cohen threoughout the world) but none of the other people.



I have read of the Sheba Kingdom of the South which had plenty of gold wealth, and the puzzle of where did all that gold came from. I am surprised that no one gave the hypothesis that it came from the place named SHABA. That is the region of north Zimbabwe and south Democratic republic of Congo, formely called Katanga, which is so rich in minerals of all sorts and mainly of copper and gold. Its local name is Shaba and it reverted to it since the independence in 1962.
Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
September 12, 2004 - 11:43 am
Thank you, Bubble. Very interesting.

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
September 12, 2004 - 11:44 am
Rich, I really never bothered to find out. It must mean "I Remember my Roots" which is not so bad, and implies that we are of French origins.

Jan Sand
September 12, 2004 - 12:24 pm
Yes, of course. Animals also learn a bit every day and their experiences must be integrated into their general reactive nerve complex through the processes of sleep.

HubertPaul
September 12, 2004 - 12:34 pm
Robby, from your post #242 :".........some of which appeared to have Semitic connections. Perhaps Bubble may have some comments about this".

If you take the Bible literally, as Christians tell you to do, all of us have Semitic connections, incl. the aborigines in Australia. If Noah and family were the only living humans after the flood, aren't we all descendents of Noah?

Oh well, just a thought, not my belief..

Persian
September 12, 2004 - 12:35 pm
Shalom, Bubble - I remember OPERATION MOSES, since one of my Ethiopian Jewish friends from university flew to Israel to help in resettlement. Another of our colleagues (an Iraqi Jew from Southern Iraq) helped to resettle some of the Iraqi immigrants in Israel who, like their Ethiopian counterparts, were familiar with tradition up to the destruction of the Temple, but not beyond. There is a fascinating account of the latter in Nelson de Mille's BY THE RIVERS OF BABYLON.

In the mid-eighties during a visiting professorship in China, I met two Ethiopian Jews whose parents heard from their parents about the ancient Chinese Jewish community in Kaifeng. A small group of elders traveled for two years to reach Kaifeng and settled in the outskirts. The two men I knew were both bankers in one of the large tongs in Shanghai. They were in regular contact with banking colleagues in Shanghai from the expansive Iraqi Jewish Sassoon family, whose family roots were in Baghdad.

JoanK
September 12, 2004 - 12:46 pm
Amazing information about the Ethiopian Jews

ELOISE: I agree with BUBBLE about remembering the Holocaust. Those of us who read history are well aware of the cruelties humans can inflict on each other, but many people aren't. I believe with (was it Emerson?) that if we don't know history, we are doomed to repeat it. The ideas that led up to the Holocaust are still with us -- everyone needs to know where those ideas have led in the past and could again.

Jan Sand
September 12, 2004 - 01:08 pm
Santayana, not Emerson.

robert b. iadeluca
September 12, 2004 - 01:14 pm
Any reactions to Durant's remarks?

Robby

Bubble
September 12, 2004 - 01:21 pm
Mahlia, The Sassoon family of Irak is part of our well known contemporary history, just like the Safrah family from Syria is.



There is a well known haunting song, inspired by the Psalms, (or is it in the Bible?): By the river of Babylon, there we sat and there we cried when we remembered Zion.



Have you read about the Khazars in Russia? This too is a fascinating story. The interest is also in a very little known museum they have there, kept under key and locks, where there are lots of old artifacts with Hebrew lettering and Jewish symbols, books and papers and mostly headstones from old tombs. An historian and reporter from our TV spent some months there a few years ago and brought back an extraordinary 5 or 6 hours film with commentary. He seemed convinced of their Jewish past. It was the first that I myself had heard about them. Bubble

Persian
September 12, 2004 - 02:13 pm
Yes, I am familair with the Khazars. Although we are currently discussing a different time period and group of people, I hope Robby will not mind my including the following link, which provides a fascinating look at these mysterious people.

http://www.khazaria.com/khazar-history.html

robert b. iadeluca
September 12, 2004 - 02:13 pm
Is the topic Durant's comment about "immigration being a manifest destiny" or is it Jewish history or is it the penetration of a frontier or is it assimilation? -- No matter. This ARTICLE fits them all.

Robby

Shasta Sills
September 12, 2004 - 02:23 pm
Eloise, I was curious to know what "Je me souviens" means to French Canadians so I checked it on the computer, and found the most delightful explanations by various Canadians. They all agree with you that it means they remember their French roots. I learned more today about Quebec than I ever knew before.

Sorry, Robby, sometimes I get side-tracked.

robert b. iadeluca
September 12, 2004 - 03:00 pm
The white supremacy movement called Christian Identity is still strong in the South. Separatist groups in the Pacific Northwest have rejected this because they don't like the messy problem of having to contend with Christian values like compassion and forgiveness.

In their place now is ODINISM drawing on a pre-Christian theology that worships Norse deities and derives its name from the chief one, Odin.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 12, 2004 - 03:06 pm
Here is the story of the "REAL" ODIN.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 12, 2004 - 03:29 pm
As Durant talks to us about people migrating across the border and entering the Roman Empire, we watch in our day the MIGRATION OF 800 MILLION PEOPLE without a single border being crossed.

Robby

Shasta Sills
September 12, 2004 - 03:31 pm
"Odin hung for nine days, pierced by his own spear, from the world tree." Now, how does this relate to the Crucifixion of Christ? Is this Norse god older than the Christian god? Would the early Christians have known of Odin? Or is this one of those instances where an idea sprang up in various parts of the world in various cultures when there was no historical connection? One of those archetypes that Jung was always talking about.

Justin
September 12, 2004 - 05:21 pm
While there were many reasons for the decline and fall of the Roman empire one of the reasons was an increasing birthrate among the outside tribes and a declining birthrate among the Romans. Roman borders stretched across tens of thousands of miles. Poorly staffed garrisons were insufficient to hold back marauding tribesmen who saw a better life beyond Roman borders.

It has always been so and in the US I thought that our open door policy ended all that but I was mistaken. We reject newcomers, who come anyway. We exclude many who wish to come and send home those who cross our borders illegally.

Scrawler
September 12, 2004 - 05:47 pm
According to Webester's Dicionary: Babarian means an alien or foreigner as seen in the ancient world. This word applied to a non-Greek, non-Roman, or non-Christian. It also can mean a member of a people or group with a civilization reguarded as priminative.

Barbarian usually refers to a group or a people that are savage or cruel. Yet, Durant tells us that the barbarians as were known in ancient times would have been surprised at the cruelty toward freemen of Rome. The Greeks, Romans, and even the Christian at times used crulty and savagery to gain what they wanted. I guess what it really comes down to is that it depends on which side of the border your standing on whether you consider yourself a babarian or not.

If you invade a country, the people might consider you a babarian. Were as you might think of yourself as someone who is liberating the people of that country.

Jan Sand
September 12, 2004 - 05:47 pm
The link to the article on Chinese migration indicated that the huge surge in manufacturing in China which has, in effect, made China the workshop of the western world is based on the extremely low wages available. When the inevitable rise of Chinese wages occurs, the west will be bereft of the manufacturing infrastructure it needs to sustain itself.

The Chinese laborer has become a potent weapon for China against the power of the west.

Persian
September 12, 2004 - 06:07 pm
But by the time the Chinese wages increase substantially, the West will have identified other regions where low-paid workers will assume the degree of work that the Chinese (and other Asians) have been responsible for. One thinks of sub-Sahara Africa, yet the traditional and religious cultures there are quite different than that of Communist China, so perhaps it will take longer.

Justin
September 12, 2004 - 07:05 pm
The part of Jan's post that is bothersome is not where we will get cheap labor when Chinese wages become equivalent to the US but where we will get the manufacturing infrastucture that has disappeared. It is the technology that is so important and availability of knowledgeable workers.

It took a long time, almost too long, for the US industrial power to supply military needs after a 10 year depression. At the beginning of WWll we had to start with an industrial cadre as well as a military cadre. The Navy, for example, was supplied with torpedos that went astray and often failed to fire and worse because they failed to travel as far as Japanese torpedos.

Some of you may remember our soldiers training with broom handles at Plattsburg and other army camps. It is as important to keep our industrial infrastructure in place as it is to keep our military prepared in this uncertain world.

Malryn (Mal)
September 12, 2004 - 07:19 pm
JUSTIN and all:

GEORGE's son just called me. GEORGE and his wife did not leave the Cayman Islands before the hurricane struck. GEORGE's son will call me as soon as he hears anything about how they are. I will post here when he does.

Mal

Jan Sand
September 12, 2004 - 08:47 pm
When I was a kid in New York City and even up into the 1950's Canal Street was a Mecca for buyouts of bankrupt industrial firms and rejected "seconds" of production and much of the army surplus of tools and materials from WWII. This colection of wonderfully precise manufactured goods was a treasure trove for creative minds at almost no cost.

It formed the kitchen midden of the industrial era where technically talented people could garner spare parts for creative exploration. That and Lafayette Street further down Manhattan where second hand electronic goods (such as circuit boards and electronic kits) were sold which was the material inspiration for innovation.

That is all gone because China now has the industries and what remains is mostly cheap Hong Kong imitations of name brand watches and other equivalent valueless junk.

To some extent creativity continues in the US on a more mental plane with computer software but construction of experimental electronic hardware and even construction of model airplanes is nowhere near the activity it used to be - and this is the birthplace of engineers and scientists and sculptors and other artists. This is one legacy of Chinese manufacturing.

robert b. iadeluca
September 13, 2004 - 03:52 am
Some wonderful posts here! And those of you who are lurking -- share a thought now and then.

"South of the Danube and the Alps the swelling tribes had already entered the Empire by peaceable immigration, even by royal invitation. Augustus had begun the policy of settling barbarians within the frontier, to replenish vacant areas and legions that the infertile and unmartial Romans no longer filled.

"And Aurelius, Aurelian, and Probus had adopted the plan. By the end of the fourth century the Balkans and eastern Gaul were predominantly German. So was the Roman army. Many high offices, political as well as military, were in Teutonic hands.

"Once the Empire had Romanized such elements. Now the immigrants barbarizd the Romans. Romans began to wear fur coats in barbarian style, and to let their hair flow long. Some even took to trousers, evoking outraged imperial decrees (397, 416).

"The cue for the great invasion came from far-off Mongolian plains. The Hsiung-nu, or Hiung-nu, or Huns, a division of the Turanian stock, occupied in our third century the region north of Lake Balkash and the Aral Sea. According to Jordanes, their chief weapon was their physiognomy:--

'By the terror of their features they inspired great fear in those whom perhaps they did not really surpass in war. They made their foes flee in horror because their swarthy aspect was fearful. They had a shapeless lump instead of a head, with pinholes rather than eyes. They are cruel to their children on the very day of their birth. For they cut the cheeks of the males with a sword, so that before they receive the nourishment of milk, they must learn to endure wounds. Hence they grow old beardless and with faces scarred by the sword. They are short in statute, quick in bodily movement, alert horsemen, ready in the use of bow and arrow, broad shouldered, and with firm set neccks always erect in pride.'

"War was their industry, pasturing cattle was their recreation. Armed with arrows and iknives, equipped with courage and speed, driven by the exhaustion of their lands and the pressure of their eastern enemies, they advanced into Russia about 155, overcame and absorbed the Alani, crossed the Volga (372?), and attacked the almost civilzied Ostrogoths in the Ukraine.

"Ermanaric, the centenarian Ostrogothic King, fough bravely, was defeated, and died, some said, by his own hand. Part of the Ostrogoths surrendered and joined the Huns. Part fled west into the lands of the Visigoths north of the Danube.

"A Visigothic army met the advancing Huns at the Dniester, and was overwhelmed. A remnant of the Visigoths begged permission of the Roman authorities on the Danube to cross the river and settle in Moesia and Thrace. The Emperor Valens sent word that they should be admitted on condition that they surrender their arms, and give up their youths as hostages.

"The Visigoths crossed, and were shamelessly plundered by imperial officials and troops. Their girls and boys were enslaved by amorous Romans, but after diligent bribery the immigrants were allowed to keep their arms. Food was sold them at famine prices, so that hungry Goths gave ten pounds of silver, or a slave, for a joint of meat or a loaf of bread. At last the Goths were forced to sell their children into bondage to escape starvation.

"When they showed signs of revolt the Roman general invited their leader Fritigern to a banquet, plotting to kill him. Fritigern escaped, and roused the desperate Goths to war. They pillaged, burned, and killed until almost all Thrace was laid waste by their hunger and their rage. Valens hurried up from the East and met the Goths on the plains of Hadrianople with an inferior force mostly composed of barbarians in the service of Rome (378). The result, in the words of Ammianus, was 'the most disastrous defeat encountered by the Romans since Cannae' 594 years before.

"The Gothic cavalry prevailed over the Roman infantry, and from that day until the fourteenth century the strategy and tactics of cavalry dominated the declining art of war. Two thirds of the Roman army perished. Valens himself was seriously wounded. The Goths set fire to the cottage in which he had taken refuge, and the Emperor and his attendants died in the flames. The victorious horde marched upon Constantinople, but failed to pierce the defenses organized by Valens' widow Dominica.

"The Visigoths, joind by Ostrogoths and Huns, who crossed the unprotected Danube, ravaged the Balkans at will from the Black Sea to the borders of Italy."

The cavalry of the Huns quickly defeats the infantry of the Romans with shock and awe. Methods of warfare change and set the pace for the next thousand years.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 13, 2004 - 03:57 am
Here are some enlightening details about the HUNS.

Robby

Jan Sand
September 13, 2004 - 04:14 am
If the invaders succeeded with an innovative use of horses, it was only among the first in an evolution of aggression in human history. Each innovation in turn was overcome by a new idea. Armor, British longbows, the crossbow, the fortified castle, the catapult and trebucket, gunpowder, the machine gun, tanks, aircraft, and finally, into our own era, the atomic weapons and intercontinental missiles.

Now, the ultimate weapons of destruction which the military still hang on to seem to be undermined by pure human innoivation so that the vulnerable targets can be overcome with almost costless box knives and the normal mechanisms which maintain our fragile civilization such as civilian aircraft or shippig containers or the post office which dutifully delivers anthrax.

Jan Sand
September 13, 2004 - 10:10 am
From what I have seen about Rome and how it dealt with the cultures surrounding it there is perhaps a lesson to be learnt in our current troubles. Slavery did exist and some people were treated badly but it seems that Roman citizenship was available to many in outlying cultures and probably strengthened Rome's hold on its territories.

Today the west has managed to meld most of Europe into an integrated financial and to a large extent cultural whole thereby defusing the many conflicts that took place before the First and Second World Wars.

This failed when France tried this with Algeria, so it is not a simple problem.

Instead of a frontal assault on Moslem culture, if there was some way to integrate with it peacefully, a good many problems might go away.

Éloïse De Pelteau
September 13, 2004 - 10:55 am
There seems to be a pattern here. Every time a civilization falls, the invasion comes from the North, or as in this one, the North East. It seems that cold climate contributes to hardiness.

Is it surprising that the Huns legendary tenacity and endurance would easily subdue the softer, fatter population of the South West. Asia has always supplied people 'en masse' and they still do today, and for the Huns, ""War was their industry, pasturing cattle was their recreation.... The Roman Empire had grown fat and lazy and most of all, the practiced of birth control typical of the wealthy countries leaves feeble older men as head of the government and to defend their country in case of war. It became their "épée de Damoclès". For the Huns invading such countries would only be a game.

If we compare this with what goes on today, the countries terrorizing the West have a young, tough, lean population. To loose a few people willing to die trying to achieve a goal is not that important in the overall scheem of things and dying has been made glorious in their eyes.

Ever since S of C began we have witnessed this phenomena. Civilization progresses in the same rhythm as quoted in the heading. The Roman Empire had come full circle and it was now ripe to fall down like a fruit ready to eat.

Eloïse

Jan Sand
September 13, 2004 - 11:18 am
Since there haven't been that many civilizations that fell, is it wise to generalize about where the invaders came from?

Malryn (Mal)
September 13, 2004 - 12:06 pm
JAN, Eloise has some strong basis in fact for the statements she made. Those of us who have read and discussed the first three volumes of the Story of Civilization have seen many civilizations fall since history began. Generally, and, I suppose not surprisingly, the foes that did them in were invaders from the north.

Mal

moxiect
September 13, 2004 - 12:23 pm


The cycle continues slowly. Human invent tools that can be used one way for the good of the whole or just as destructive! It's still man's inhumanity to man no matter what one believes in or uses the tools given to him. Sly foxes we are.

Justin
September 13, 2004 - 01:10 pm
Jan: I agree. I think integration is the way to achieve peace between east and west. Islam and Christianity have many common elements beginning with Abraham. A Christislam religion would go a long way toward integration. One might start by using the common elements of both religions to form a third with which to attract members from both sides. The danger is that one might end up with three religions all ready to fight to protect the "true" religion.

Another posibility for integration with the east lies in economics. We are the "haves". They are the "have nots". We could share skills. Afterall, we acquired the skills from them originally. Unfortunately, religion stands in the way of eastern progress.

Christislam may be the only real possibility and the chance of that occurring is very remote.

The Romans integrated with Huns, Visigoths, and Germans to fight Huns and Visigoths at Chalons-sur-Marne. Integration did not work that time.

Shasta Sills
September 13, 2004 - 01:32 pm
Now, here is Justin who is not usually sympathetic to religion, trying to start a new one. Christislam!! I think if you are going to integrate Christianity and Islam, Justin, you need to go back to why Islam originated. What was there about Christianity and Judaism that did not suit the Muslims? Well, for one thing, they were monotheists and refused to accept Christ as God. But the Jews were monotheists too. Why couldn't they accept Judaism? I've never understood that. But Mahlia can probably tell us why the Muslims needed their own religion. And then we will know why Christislam won't work.

Jan Sand
September 13, 2004 - 02:34 pm
I frankly doubt that a meld of the two religions is the solution. Much of the difficulty with Islam is that it is so exclusive, not permitting anyone to wander off. But I have heard that it is not the relgion but the culture of the Arabs which is swallowed with the religion and which creates difficulties. The suppression of women, the rejection of some of the basic economic processes of the west (interest on money is not permitted) etc. The religion itself does not demand this. Perhaps no compromise is possible, but it seems such a silly thing to massacre for.

robert b. iadeluca
September 13, 2004 - 03:03 pm
"On Jovian's death the army and Senate had passed the crown to Valentinian, a blunt and Greekless soldier recalling Vespasian. With the consent of the Senate he had appointed his younger brother Valens as Augustus and Emperor in the East, while he himself chose the apparently more dangerous West.

"He refortified the frontiers of Italy and Gaul, built up the army to strength and discipline, and again drove the encroaching Germans back across the Rhine. From his capital at Milan he issued enlightened legislation forbidding infanticide -- founding colleges -- extending state medicine in Rome -- reducing taxes -- reforming a debased coinage -- checking political corruption -- and proclaiming freedom of creed and worship for all.

"He legalized bigamy to sanction his marriage with Justina, whose beauty had been too generously described to him by his wife. Nevertheless, it was a tragedy for Rome that he died so soon (375).

"His son Gratian succeeded to his power in the West, lived up to his father for a year or two, then abandoned himself to amusements and the chase, and left the government to corrupt officials who put every office and judgment up for sale. The general Maximus overthrew him and invaded Italy. But the new Emperor of the East, Theodosius I the Great, marched westward, defeated the usurper, and set the young Valentinian firmly on his Milan throne (388).

"Theodosius was a Spaniard. He had distinguished himself as a general in Spain, Britain, and Thrace. He had persuaded the victorious Goths to join his army instead of fighting it. He had ruled the Eatern provinces with every wisdom except tolerance. Half the world looked in awe at his astonishing assemblage of handsome features and majestic presence, ready anger and readier mercvy, humane legislation and sternly orthodox theology.

"While he was wintering at Milan a disturbance characteristic of the times broke out in Thessalonica. The imperial governor there, Botheric, had imprisoned for scandalous immorality a charioteer popular with the citizens. The crowd overcame his garrison, killed him and his aides, tore their bodies to pieces, and paraded the streets displaying the severed limbs as emblems of victory.

"The news of this outburst stirred Theodosius to fury. He sent secret orders that the entire population of Thessalonica should be punished. The people were invited into the hippodrome for games. Hidden soldiery fell upon them there, and massacred 7000 men, women, and children (390).

"Ambrose, who administered with stoic Christianity the see of Milan, wrote to the Emperor that he, the Bishop, could not again celebrate Mass in the imperial presence until Theodosius should have atoned before all the people for his crime. The Emperor was reluctant to lower the prestige of his office by so public a humiliation. He tried to enter the cathedral, but Ambrose himself barred the way. After weeks of vain efforts Theodosius yielded, stripped himself of all the insignia of empire, entered the cathedral as a humble penitent, and begged heaven to forgive his sins (390).

"It was an historic triumph and defeat in the war between Church and state.

"Theodosius marched westward again, to restore legitimacy and orthodoxy with an army of Goths, Alani, Caucasians, Iberians, and Huns. Among its generals were the Goth Gainas who would seize Constantinople, the Vandal Stilicho who would defend Rome, and the Goth Alaric who would sack it.

"In a two-day battle near Aquileia, Arbogast and Eugenius were defeated (394). Eugenius was surrendered by his soldiers and slain. Arbogast died by his own hand. Theodosius summoned his eleven-year-old son Honorius to be Emperor of the West, and named his eighteen-year-old son Arcadius as co-Emperor of the East. Then, exhausted by his campaigns, he died at Milan (395) in the fiftieth year of his age.

"The Empire that he had repeatedly united was again divided, and except briefly under Justinian it would never be united again."

Again religion wins out over state, and this time the Empire appears divided for good.

Robby

Persian
September 13, 2004 - 03:52 pm
I, too, think there is little chance of combining Christianity and Islam in the future. The issue of accepting Jesus as the Son of God or God himself in human form is only one concern (although a major one).

On the practical side, the suppression of women is very much traditional and not a mandate of Islam. In the Holy Qur'an and Hadith (the Prophet Mohamed's sayings), women are to be respected, protected, admired in the family and given an important role in family issues. They are NOT to be harmed, suppressed or denied an important role in the life of the family. However . . . the overwhelming patrimony in many of the Islamic countries (especially those like Afghanistan with an extremely low literacy rate) contribute to the physical suppression of women, which has been so highlighted in the international press.

On the other hand, I know many Saudi women who are extremely religious, follow Islam's teaching to the letter, and are influential in businesses, which they own and operate. The core of these businesses is located in the womens' homes - not at all unusual in Saudi for professional women who want to contribute to the business sector. Many others who have chosen professions as scientists and medical doctors are active in their communities serving women. The separation of men and women in public (whether on the street or in the professional environment) is to prevent the type of harassment that is so prevalent in Western society. This is also the reason for the style of dress worn by orthodoc Muslim women.

Having mentioned the professional women whom I know personally, let me also say that there are, unbfortunately, many Muslimas who are indeed persecuted, suppressed, abandoned without nearby family, and whose lives are hell. We already know that life is not fair and in thest instances, life is particularly unfair.

The rule of finance in Islamic society indeed does not allow interest to be charged or accepted. However, that is not to say that Islamic financial institutions do not recoup "processing fees," "administrative fees," etc. which take the place of interest charged. The role of zakat (tithing) is a sacred duty among practicing Muslims worldwide. Those to whom much has been given are expected to give in accordance to their ability to do so. If a woman has "two mites" to give, she gives them and thanks God that she is able to help others. If a family has an abundance, it gives an abundance. Children are taught early to set aside pennies for their own zakat. (I've been contributing zakat since I was 4 years old.)

The public burden of Islamic dress has, in my opinion, been blown out of proportion. No one is concerned that Quakers or Mennonites dress conservatively. No one reproaches orthodox Jewish women or Greek or Russian women from covering their hair. So what's the big deal about Muslimas covering their hair. Muslims are taught to be "modest in dress and about their bodies." But then so are conservative Christians and Jews.

IMO, the numerous acts of terrorism seen on the world stage perpetrated by young men - and more recently by women as well - is the result of extreme despair about having nothing in their futures but death. For 50 years, this has been true in the Palestinian community; now for the past decade, we've seen it in the Chechnen community. I don't excuse terrorist acts by any means - or by anyone, including Americans who have wrought damage within our borders (i.e. Tim McVeigh in Oklahoma). Yet we know that desperation causes people to do odious things (i.e. Vietnam, Columbia, Cambodia)). So does greed (i.e. the warlords of Somalia, Sudan and Afghanistan; the monsters who joined Sadaam in Iraq; and the Brazilian landowners who abduct people from desperately poor communities with lies about hiring them to work and them keep them in virtual slavery for years; the heads of prostitution rings who promise jobs to Russian and Eastern European girls and boys and then force them to remain as sex slaves). And I could go on and on.

Wherever there are humans, there has been cruelty to each other, and that remains. It's a part of life. No matter how safe we are in the West or comfortable or ensconced in our own communities, there are others around the world who are absolutely desperate. And they are the ones most likely taken advantage of by individuals and groups who wish to make money, establish their power base, increase their arrogant reputations, etc. But in the contex of this discussion, only a small portion of the problems are the result of religion. As we have seen, history replays itself unendingly. Many times to our sorrow.

robert b. iadeluca
September 13, 2004 - 04:10 pm
I am coming to the conclusion here that participants are more interested in Islam than in the buildup of Christianity that preceded it. Should we skip a good hunk of the book and start in with the Islamic Civiization which begins on Page 153? Shall we skip over The Triumph of the Barbarians (Italian background, The Barbarian flood, The Fall of Rome) --The Progress of Christianity (The organization of the Church, The Heretics, The Christian West, The Christian East, St. Augustine) -- Europe Takes Form (Britain becomes England, Ireland, Prelude to France, Visigothic Spain) -- Justinian (The emperor, Theodora, The Code of Justinian) --Byzantine Civilization (Work and Wealth, Science and Philosophy, Literature, Byzantine Art) -- The Persians (Sasanian Society, The Arab Conquest)??

Shall we skip all that and take it that all those historical events are not as important as the birth of Islam?

What is your wish?

Robby

moxiect
September 13, 2004 - 04:52 pm


Robby

I for one prefer going page by page so I can learn what happened prior to the Islamic birth! As I see, those events prior to Islamic birth are just as important!

Éloïse De Pelteau
September 13, 2004 - 04:57 pm
No, no, no don't skip anything Robby please. I want to know what Durant has to say about that, it is very important to me.

Mahlia, thank you for that wonderful post.

Scrawler
September 13, 2004 - 05:04 pm
As I see it the core of all of civilization's difficulties lay in "land". Those that have it want more and those that don't have it want more too. It can only get worse as our population increases. Which than will result either in war or famine or both. What would happen if somehow our entire world could be carved up into separate and equal sections - each having everthing that everyone could ever want. I know it sounds like the plot for the next Hollywood movie. But what if somehow a way could be found. Okay, I'll go back to lurking now. - But let me leave with a thought - why can't we ALL just get along - what's stopping us??????????

Robby, I agree I think we'll miss a lot if we don't read everything that Durant wrote before we get to Islam. There was a reason he wrote it. The least we can do is read it.

robert b. iadeluca
September 13, 2004 - 05:15 pm
If it is the wish of the majority of participants here that we follow along as Durant gives it to us, then it would be helpful to react to the "story" as he tells it rather than jumping ahead.

Any comments about Post 286?

Robby

Justin
September 13, 2004 - 05:45 pm
Supression of women, covered heads etc and interest on money would be among the common areas. Christianity has been guilty of both elements.

Robby: We are still on the main topic. East and west split in the late Roman period and remained so for 1400 years.We're just talking about sewing up the breach.

Justin
September 13, 2004 - 05:56 pm
Theodosius appoints his eleven year old emperor of the West and his eighteen year old emperor of the east- a most disastrous decision. You'd think he would have learned something from the history of Rome.

robert b. iadeluca
September 13, 2004 - 06:26 pm
"It was during those years that Synesius of Cyrene, half Christian bishop and half pagan philosoher, in an address before Arcadius' luxury-loving court at Constantinople, described with clarity and force the alternatives that faced Greece and Rome. How could the empire survive if its citizens continued to shirk military service, and to entrust its defense to mercenaries recruited from the very nations that threatened it?

"He proposed an end of luxury and ease and the enlistment or conscription of a citizen army aroused to fight for country and freedom. He called upon Arcadius and Honorius to rise and smite the insolent barbarian hosts within the empire, and to drive them back to their lairs behind the Black Sea, the Danube, and Rhine. The court applauded Synesius' address as an elegant oratorical exercise, and returned to its feasts.

"Meanwhile Alaric compelled the armorers of Epirus to make for his Goths a full supply of pikes, swords, helmets, and shields.

"In 401 he invaded Italy, plundering as he came. Thousands of refugees poured into Milan and Ravenna, and then fled to Rome. Farmers took shelter within the walled towns, while the rich gathered whatever of their wealth they could move, and frantically sought passage to Corsica, Sardinia, or Sicily.

"Stilicho denuded the provinces of their garrisons to raise an army capable of stemming the Gothic flood. At Pollentia, on Easter morning of 402, he pounded upon the Goths, who had interrupted pillage for prayer.

"Alaric retreated, but ominously toward unprotected Rome, and only a massive bribe from Honorius persuaded him to leave Italy.

"The timid Emperor, on Alaric's approach to Milan, had thought of transferring his capital to Gaul. Now he cast about for some safer place, and found it in Ravenna, whose marshes and lagoons made it impregnable by land, and its shoals by sea.

"But the new capital trembled like the old when the barbarian Radagaisus led a host of 200,000 Alani, Quadi, Ostrogoths, and Vandals over the Alps, and attcked the growing city of Florentia. Stilicho once more proved his generalship, defeated the motley horde with a relatively small army, and brought Radagaisus to Honorius in chains.

"Italy breathed again, and the imperial court of patricians, princesses, bishops, cunuchs, poultry, and generals resumed its routine of luxury, corruption and intrigue.

"Olympius, the chancellor, envied and distrusted Stilicho. He resented the great general's apparent connivance at Alaric's repeated escapes, and thought he detected in him the secret sympathy of a German with German invaders. He protested against the bribes that on Stilicho's prompting had been paid or pledged to Alaric.

"Honorius hestitated to depose the man who for twenty-three years had led Rome's armies to victory and had saved the West. But when Olympius pesuaded him that Stilicho was plotting to put his son on the throne, the timid youth consented to his general's death. Olumpius at once sent a squad of soldiers to carry out the decree. Stilicho's friends wished to resist. He forbade them, and offered his neck to the sword (408).

"A few months later Alaric re-entered Italy."

Corruption and intrigue by the wealthy. Fighting, death, and desolation for those without wealth. And the constant complaint of those who were not native-born.

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
September 13, 2004 - 07:09 pm
I was intrigued by ARCADIUS because my father was named after him. The only thing they had in common was their noses.

Persian
September 13, 2004 - 07:17 pm
"Corruption and intrigue by the wealthy. Fighting, death, and desolation for those without wealth. And the constant complaint of those who were not native-born."

Not too different from what we have witnessed in contemporary periods.

I, too, would like to continue through Durant's comments, while at the same time realizing that occasional comments from the participants on divergent topics (or those replicated in contemporary times) brings a richness and diversity to the discussion as a whole. If there is not a thorough understanding of Christianity and its role in society, it will be almost impossible to comprehend the birth of Islam. And often even those who are steeped in one religion do not truly understand others unless they make a concerted effort - as we are doing in this discussion - to learn.

Justin
September 13, 2004 - 07:37 pm
I have often wondered what drove the western Roman court to Ravenna. Now it is clear. Fear. The Lombards must then have felt free to take the vacated Milan.

Malryn (Mal)
September 13, 2004 - 07:44 pm
MAHLIA has essentially said what I came in here to post. I couldn't possibly begin to understand what Islam is about without first learning about the roots and changes in them that made Christianity what it is today.

Mal

JoanK
September 13, 2004 - 07:49 pm
I too want to go step by step. I must confess I'm confused by all the emporors, tribes, and cities mentioned. They are mushing together in my head. Help!

Sunknow
September 13, 2004 - 08:50 pm
Robby -- Thank you for the link to The Huns. Strangely enough, Attila is one of my heroes. Many, many years ago, when I was in Jr. High School, I made the mistake of joining a "certain" book-of-the-month club....thinking I could pay for the books with my lunch money. The books, of course, arrived faster then my lunch money accumulated, and I was in hot water in no time. I'd like to say I learned my lesson, but once I got out of that hot water, I was in it all over again, several times....I could not resist the books..!

One of the first books I bought was "Attila the Hun". I no longer remember the author. I thought it was just fiction. The review grabbed me for some reason. It did not sound like a book for a girl, but I was intrigued that someone could write a book about all that stuff, way back before our time, and "make up" stories like that. Little did I know then that it was based on actual history. I bought what was called "historical novels" for years. Later, I bought real history, classics, and non-fiction. I treasured them all, with their cheap, rough-cut paper, and faded book covers. It was a while before I could afford better.

When I retired several years ago,after moving all my books fifty-odd times, I gave a 'ton' of them to several libraries....some were excellent books, purchased in later, better times, and in first class condition, but I still had those priceless first books, fit to be trashed, but I couldn't do it. So I gave them away with the "good" volumes.

"Atilla the Hun", both horrified and fascinated me, but mostly, because of him......I was just hooked on History.

Please continue to conduct the discussion one page at a time. You're doing great!

Sun

Jan Sand
September 13, 2004 - 09:33 pm
Corruption and intrigue by the wealthy. Fighting, death, and desolation for those without wealth. And the constant complaint of those who were not native-born.

Your obviously pointed comment sounds more and more contemporary.

Bubble
September 13, 2004 - 11:51 pm
"Corruption and intrigue by the wealthy. Fighting, death, and desolation for those without wealth. And the constant complaint of those who were not native-born. "



It could have been written today in one of our local papers for our own news editorial. History repats itself endlessly.

robert b. iadeluca
September 14, 2004 - 03:41 am
"The Western Roman Empire, toward the end of the fourth century, presented a complex picture of recovery and decline, of literary activity and sterility, of political pomp and military decay. Gaul prospered, and threatened Italian leadership in every field. Of the approximately 70,000,000 souls in the empire, 20,000,000 or more were Gauls, hardly 6,000,000 were Italians. The rest were mostly Greek-speaking Orientals.

"Rome itself since 100 A.D. had been ethnically an Oriental city. Once Rome had lived on the East, as modern Europe lived on its conquests and colonies until the middle of the twentieth century. The legions had sucked the products and precious metals of a dozen provinces into the mansions and coffers of the victors.

"Now conquest was ended and retreat had begun. Italy was forced to depend upon its own human and material resources. These had been dangerously reduced by family limitation, famine, epidemics, taxation, waste, and war. Industry had never flourished in the parasitic peninsula. Now that its markets were being lost in the East and Gaul, it could no longer support the urban population that had eked out doles by laboring in shops and homes. The collegia or guilds suffered from inability to sell their votes in a monarchy whre voting was rare.

"Internal trade fell off, highway brigandage grew. The once great roads, though still better than any before the nineteenth century, were crumbling into disrepair."

A "parasitic" peninsula -- is this what it has been all along rather than the grand and glorious Roman Empire we thought we were examining? A sucker living on the life blood of the talents and strengths of other cultures? Where was all that so-called leadership? Had it ever been strong -- economically, politically, morally, culturally? What happened?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
September 14, 2004 - 05:35 am
It had to be a pretty strong parasite to last for over 1000 years. Did the dying off of some of the hosts have anything to do with its downfall?


Timeline of the Roman Empire

Another Timeline, including a link to the History of the Calendar

hegeso
September 14, 2004 - 10:34 am
Attila, the Hun, was glorified (in a rather clumsy way) in pre WWII semi-feudal and highly nationalistic Hungary, where I was born and raised. He was also white-washed from guilt in murdering his brother, Buda. The name 'Bleda' was not known in Hungary. The name Budapest is a combination of the name of two, much later unified cities, Buda and Pest, preserving Buda's memory.

Sources in Hungarian literature say that Attila died at his wedding night with his umphteenth wife, named 'Ildiko' there. Some other sources suspect that Ildiko was really Kriemhilde, thus creating connection between the Niebelungen saga and Attila.

Ceterum censeo: please, don't skip anything.

hegeso
September 14, 2004 - 10:41 am
Hungary was very proud of Attila, because age-old Hungarian sagas connect Huns with Magyars. Those sagas say that there were two brothers, Hunor and Magyar, Hunor being the ancestor of the Huns, and Magyar of the Magyars.

Scrawler
September 14, 2004 - 01:02 pm
"Italy breathed again, and the imperial court of patricians, princesses, bishops, eunchs, poultry and generals resumed its routine of luxury, corruption, and intrigue."

It seems to me that if history is any reflection that it really doesn't matter what changes are made "the routine of luxury, corruption, and intrigue" will always continue.

Malryn (Mal)
September 14, 2004 - 01:22 pm
GEORGE's son has called me to say that GEORGE and his wife somehow went through Hurricane Ivan in their garage. They are shaken, but not injured. Their house in the Cayman Islands is flooded and suffered some other damage, but thankfully, our friend GEORGE is all right.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
September 14, 2004 - 02:28 pm
I am learning so much in this discussion from participants as well as Durant. Never before did I see a connection between HUNgary and Attila the HUN. I knew that Budapest was, in actuality, two cities but I never knew that Buda was the brother of Attila. Thank you, Hegeso, for this enlightening info (at least new to me).

Mal, when you speak to George's son again, please let him know that after things quiet down, we hope his father will re-join us here.

Robby

Justin
September 14, 2004 - 02:55 pm
We learned very early in our study of Rome that they were parasites. They manufacured nothing. They grew nothing. The Provinces supplied all that Rome required. It's people were fed by the grain dole. Once the mighty arm of the military weakened and disappeared, the people of Rome were helpless. They used converted barbarians to fill the ranks of the legions for several centuries but this practice could last only until the barbarians realized they were Rome and not the other way around.

Honorius finally chopped off the head of the only barbarian providing him and his people with food and booty. That marks the real end of the Romans. The western throne moved from Milan to Ravenna and remained there until the Ostrogoths paid them a visit and split the western emperor in two. The empire continued in the east until the Crusaders in the eleventh century took Constantinople. The name lasted as Holy Roman Empire until about 1400 CE when the Ottomen finished it. Vestiges remain in the Eastern Church and in the Roman Catholic Church.

robert b. iadeluca
September 14, 2004 - 03:03 pm
"The middle classes had been the mainstay of municipal life in Italy. Now they too were weakened by economic decline and fiscal exploitation. Every property owner was subject to rising taxes to support an expanding bureaucracy whose chief function was the collection of taxes. Satirists complained that 'those who live at the expense of the pubblic funds are more numerous than those who provide them.'

"Slavery was slowly declining. In a developed civilization nothing can equal the free man's varying wage, salary, or profit as an economic stimulus. Slave labor had paid only when slaves were abundant and cheap. Their cost had risen since the legions had ceased to bring home the human fruits of victory. Escape was easy for the slaves now that government was weak. As the cost of slaves mounted, the owner protected his investment in them by more considerate treatment.

"The majority of the rich now lived in their country villas, shunning the turmoil and rabble of the towns. Nevertheless, most of Italy's wealth was still drawn to Rome. The great city was no longer a capital, and seldom saw an emperor, but it remained the social and intellectual focus of the West. Here was the summit of the new Italian aristocracy -- not as of old an hereditary caste, but periodically recruited by the emperors on the basis of landed wealth.

"A priest of Marseille, in the fifth century, painted a less attractive picture of conditions in Italy and Gaul. Salvian's book On the Government of God (c.450) addressed itself to the same problem that generated Augustine's City of God and Orosius' History Against the Pagans -- how could the evils of the barbarian invasions be reconciled with a divine and beneficent Providence? These sufferings, Salvian, answered, were a just punishment for the economic exploitation, political corruption, and moral debauchery of the Roman world.

"No such ruthless oppression of poor by rich, he assures us, could be found among the barbarians. The barbarian heart is softer than the Roman's. If the poor could find vehicles they would migrate en masse to live under barbarian rule.

"It is a terrible picture, obviously exaggerated. Eloquence is seldom accurate. Doubtless then, as now, virtue modestly hid its head, and yielded the front page to vice, misfortune, politics, and crime.

"Augustine paints almost as dark a picure for a like moralizing end. He complains that the churches are often emptied by the competition of dancing girls displaying in the theaters their disencumbered charms. The public games still saw the slaughter of conficts and captives to make a holiday.

"Culturally, Rome had not seen so busy an age since Pliny and Tacitus. Music was the rage. Ammianus complains that it had displaced philosophy, and had 'turned the libraries into tombs.' He describes gigantic hydraulic organs, and lyres as large as chariots.

"Schools were numerous. The 'universities' of professors paid by the state taught grammar, rhetoric, literature, and philosophy to students drawn from all the Western provinces, while the encompassing barbarians patiently studed the arts of war.

Every civilization is a fruit from the sturdy tree of barbarism, and falls at the greatest distance from the trunk."

Those outside the city prepared for war while those inside the city discussed and argued about Values. Headlines ignored the "good" and featured the "bad."

Robby

moxiect
September 14, 2004 - 05:32 pm


Robby you stated:

"Those outside the city prepared for war while those inside the city discussed and argued about Values. Headlines ignored the "good" and featured the "bad."

And the cycle continues even now.

Fifi le Beau
September 14, 2004 - 08:52 pm
Augustine in his later years bemoaned the morals of his city. He had himself lived a life of immoral debauchery, but wished to forbid it to anyone else.

I prefer my experts on morality to be pure as the driven snow. Nothing in life is more disgusting than an immoral hypocrite preaching morals. It is right up there with the town drunk preaching abstinence. I will personally take my moral lessons from someone who has lived what they teach. That would exclude Augustine.

In the discussion of myths, all myth is the same to me, and there is no difference between the Hebrew myth that formed monotheism and its imitators Christianity and Islam, than the Norse myth. All myth is written by man to set 'them' apart from the "others".

Fifi

Jan Sand
September 14, 2004 - 11:42 pm
Although I do not agree with St.Augustine insofar as sexual practice is concerned, I would be cautious about not listening to warnings about disreputable practices by one who has been there. Their warnings, at minimum, may be the result of experience. I find Puritan prohibitions by people who have no experience in the matter no less repellant.

Jan Sand
September 15, 2004 - 02:04 am
"A priest of Marseille, in the fifth century, painted a less attractive picture of conditions in Italy and Gaul. Salvian's book On the Government of God (c.450) addressed itself to the same problem that generated Augustine's City of God and Orosius' History Against the Pagans -- how could the evils of the barbarian invasions be reconciled with a divine and beneficent Providence? These sufferings, Salvian, answered, were a just punishment for the economic exploitation, political corruption, and moral debauchery of the Roman world.

It is interesting how the religious conception of the world with God at its control relieves humankind of the responsibility for its own miseries and evils in that God somehow permits this disreputable behavior and God is, after all, all seeing, all powerful, and all permissive.

robert b. iadeluca
September 15, 2004 - 03:32 am
"Into this city of a million souls (Rome), about the year 365, came a Syrian Greek of noble birth and handsome figure, Ammianas Marcellinus of Antioch. He had been a soldier on the staff of Ursicinus in Mesopotamia as an active participant in the wars of Constantius, Julian, and Jovian. When peace came in the East he retired to Rome, and undertook to complete Livy and Tacitus by writing the history of the Empire from Nerva to Valens. He wrote a difficult and involved Latin, like a German writing French. He had read too much Tacitus, and had too long spoken Greek.

"He was a frank pagan, an admirer of Julian, a scorner of the luxury that he ascribed to the bishops of Rome. For all that he was generally impartial, praised many aspects of Christianity, and condemned Julian's restriction of academic freedom as a fault 'to be overwhelmed with eternal silence.'

"He was as well educatd as a soldier can find time to be. He believed in demons and theurgy, and quoted in favor of divination its archopponent Cicero. But he was, by and large, a blunt and honest man, just to all factions and men. He hated oppression, extravagance, and display, and spoke his mind about them wherever found.

"He was the last of the classic historians. After him, in the Rome world, there were only chroniclers.

"In that same Rome whose manners seemed to Ammianus snobbish and corrupt, Macrobius found a society of men who graced their wealth with courtesy, culture, and philanthropy. He was primarily a scholar, loving books and a quiet life. In 390, however, we find him serving as vicarius, or imperial legate, in Spain.

"His chef d'oeuvre, quoted by almost every historian these last 1500 years, was the Saturnalia, or Feast of Saturn, a 'Curiosities of Literature' in which the author gathered the heterogenous harvest of his studious days and bookish nights.

"It was some such circle as this that, about 394, welcomed into its number a poet destined to sing the swan song of Rome's magnificence. Claudius Claudianus, like Ammianus, was born in the East, and spoke Greek as a mother tongue. But he must have learned Latin at an early age to write it so fluently well. After a short stay in Rome he went to Milan, found a place on Stilicho's staff, became unofficial poet laureate to the Emperor Honorius, and married a lady of birth and wealth. Claudian had an eye to the main chance, and did not propose to be buried in Potter's Field. He served Stilicho with melodious panegyrics and with savagely vituperative poems against Stilicho's rivals.

"The grateful Senate raised a statue to Claudian in Trajan's Forum 'as to the most glorious of poets,' who had united Virgil's felicity with Homer's power. In 408 he learned that Stilicho hd been assassinated, and that many of the general's friends were being arrested and exxecuted. We do not know the remainder of his story.

And so as Rome lay dying, a group of scholars began to write about it.

Robby

Jan Sand
September 15, 2004 - 03:58 am
There are some insects which give birth in a devastating way. The young multitudes swarm through the dying mother voraciously consuming and nourished by her corpse to move towards new individual adulthood armed with the being of their parent. Perhaps this is a more informed way to view the death of Rome.

Malryn (Mal)
September 15, 2004 - 07:05 am
Out of the ashes of Rome will rise yet another civilization, another phoenix.

Claudianus quotes

Jan Sand
September 15, 2004 - 11:34 am
The phoenix is another disturbing symbol for our civilization as it must pass through fire to be reborn.

Fifi le Beau
September 15, 2004 - 12:16 pm
Thank you Mal for the Claudianus quotes. This one speaks directly to my previous post.

"Setting an example is not the main means of influencing others; it is the only means."

Fifi

LouiseJEvans
September 15, 2004 - 12:42 pm
Jesus Christ is not god. He is the SON OF GOD

Justin
September 15, 2004 - 12:59 pm
Louise: Really? What happened to the Trinity?

LouiseJEvans
September 15, 2004 - 01:03 pm
Justin, this isn't a religious discussion. However the Bible does not prove a trinity.

Malryn (Mal)
September 15, 2004 - 01:21 pm
Post #322 sounds like a statement of personal belief to me. Or is this the Council of Nicaea?

JAN, isn't it true in nature that when something dies, something else is born to take its place, whatever the cause of death may be?

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
September 15, 2004 - 01:31 pm
Augustine Confessions translated text

Scrawler
September 15, 2004 - 02:21 pm
A beautiful lone bird which lived in the Arabian desert for 500 or 600 years and then consumed itself in fire, rising renewed from the ashes to start another long life: as symbol of immortality.

Justin
September 15, 2004 - 05:09 pm
Louise; You are right. The concept of the Trinity and the reinvention of God are the product of the Council of Nicene. I guess you are not one of those who accepts the Council's decree. By the way, this stuff is all within the parameters of Story of Civilization.

In 380, the emperor, at the urging of Ambrose, made the creed compulsory and declared the followers of other faiths to be "mad and insane." Sound familiar.

Symmachus, a follower of the "other faiths," who sought to protect Victoria, a religious symbol of the Roman Senate was banished by the Emperor.

Symmachus' portrait was done in ivory and may be available to us. Mal, the Ludovisi, Battle of Romans and Barbarians in marble is also around. Try Museo Nazionale in Rome and the Victoria and Albert in London.

robert b. iadeluca
September 15, 2004 - 05:28 pm
Louise:-You have given your belief in Post 322 which, according to the rules of this discussion, you are entitled to give but once.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 15, 2004 - 05:32 pm
Here is a copy of Post #2:--

Quoting Durant:-"The preponderant bequest of the Age of Faith was religion."



For this reason, it will be impossible to participate in this forum without discussing "religion" from time to time.



"The following guidelines will be enforced by the Discussion Leader to avoid confrontations and digressions about personal religious views.



"1 - You may make one post describing your own beliefs related to religion (whether you have a religious faith or do not) in order to explain your viewpoint toward the topic at hand. Making additional posts about your religious beliefs or faith is not permitted.
2 - Do not speak of your religion or absence of religious beliefs as "the truth."
3 - Do not attempt to change another's conviction about religion. "Comments about issues are welcomed. Negative comments about other participants are not permitted.



"Those participants who do not believe they are being treated fairly in this respect always have the right to contact Marcie, Director of Education. I will follow her guidance."



Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 15, 2004 - 06:13 pm
"In Rome, as in Athens and Alexandria, substantial pagan minorities survived, and 700 pagan temples were still standing at the end of the fourth century. Jovian and Valentinian I do not seem to have closed the temples opened by Julian. The Roman priests still (394) met in their sacred colleges, The Lupercalia were celebrated with their old half-savage rites, and the Via Sacra now and then resounded with the prescient bellowing of oxen driven to sacrifice.

"In 380 the emperor Gratian, won to a passionate orthodoxy by the eloquent Ambrose, proclaimed the Nicene Creed as compulsory 'on all the peoples subject to the governments of our clemency,' and denounced as 'mad and insane' the followers of other faiths. In 382 he ordered an end to payments by the imperial or municipal trwasuries for pagan ceremonies, vestal virgins, or priests -- confiscated all lands belonging to temples and priestly colleges -- and bade his agents remove from the Senate House in Rome that statue of the goddess Victory which Augustus had placed there in 29B.C., and before which twelve tenerations of senators had taken their vows of allegiance to the emperor.

"The speech of Symmachus before Valentinian II was acclaimed as a masterpiece of eloquent pleading. It was not expedient, he argued, to end so abruptly religious practices that had through a millennium been associated with the stability of social order and prestige of the state.

"The young Valentinian was moved. Ambrose tells us that even the Christians in the imperial council advised the restoration of the statue of Victory. But Ambrose, who had been absent on a diplomatic mission for the state, overruled the council with an imperious letter to the Emperor. He took up one by one the argumetns of Symmachus, and countered them with characteristic force. In effect he threatened to excommunicate the ruler if the plea should be granted. 'You may enter the churches, but you will find no priest there to receive you, or you will them them there to forbid you entrance.'

"Valentinian denied the Senate's appeal.

"The pagans of Italy made a last effort in 393, risking all on revolution. The half-pagan emperor Eugenius, refused recognition by Theodosius, and hoping to enlist the pagans of the West in his defense, restored the statue of Victory, and boasted that after defeating Theodosius he would stable his horses in Christian basilicas.

"Nicomachus Flavianus, son-in-law of Syummachus, led an army to support Eugenius, shared in the defeat, and killed himself. Theodosius marched into Rome, and compelled the Senate to decree the abolition of paganism in all its forms (394). When Alaric sacked Rome the pagans saw in the humiliation of the once lordly city the anger of their neglected gods.

"The war of the faiths broke the unity and morale of the people, and when the torrent of invasion reached them they could only meet it with mutual curses and divided prayers."

Apparently the threat of excommunication by priests is more powerful than the armies of emperors.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
September 15, 2004 - 06:57 pm
Ludovici Sarcophogus

Jan Sand
September 15, 2004 - 07:01 pm
Although the USA was founded on a separation of church and state, the struggle which Rome underwent in the political/religious clash still goes on today in the attempt of the Catholic church to influence voters in the coming election. It seems to be a permanant part of the social scene.

Malryn (Mal)
September 15, 2004 - 08:39 pm
The page linked below has a link to the debate between Symmachus and Ambrose and a picture of the Diptych bearing the names, Nicomachi and Symmachi.

Pagan and Christian at the end of the Fourth century

Jan Sand
September 15, 2004 - 09:28 pm
Although the progress of Christianity is more or less recorded in this account, not much detail seems available as to the motivations about sex that accomplished the change(Aside from St.Augustine's statements).

Taking our own times as a tool to inquire as to where the strong feelings might have lain, there is furious contemporary controversy about paedophilia and homosexuality.

I wonder about the sexual mores of Rome which might have influenced the rise of Christianity and the abandonment of paganism.

Justin
September 15, 2004 - 11:42 pm
Sex was clearly an important part of the Roman life style. Males had children through their wives but otherwise they freely consorted with slaves and free women who were considered more entertaining.

The message of Christianity about sex was one of shame and sin. It was Paul who advised people to be as he- without interest in sex. Then, Augustine said, "Let me be pure but not now." He was in no rush to adopt what he thought was the right attitude.

It is difficult to understand this association of deprivation and purity and more difficult to understand its appeal, especially, for gentile Roman men who were clearly used to a different life style.It seems to me that sex as a sin would be hard sell to Romans just as circumcision was a hard sell to gentile converts.

Men and women who take an oath of celibacy do so with the understanding that they are doing something that will make them more acceptable to a god. That was as true for the Vestal Virgins as it is of nunnery candidates. If that is so, then, celibacy for all would be a good thing, for we would all be more acceptable to a god. Who can deny that's a god thing.

Clearly, the appeal of Christianity was in some other area.

Justin
September 16, 2004 - 12:11 am
Thank you Mal. The Ludovisi marble while showing a battle scene between Germans and Romans depicts differences in style of dress and barbering habits, it also shows how far the Greco-Romans have come from the idealized forms of the Classical Greeks. Much of sculptured art up to this time was reserved for public viewing. But in the centuries after Augustus and his Ara Paci individual families were able to place a stone cut grandpa in the atrium and to decorate sarcophagi in elaborate scenes from the life of the deceased, whether actual or imagined.

Jan Sand
September 16, 2004 - 03:15 am
The disdain for sex is one of the more mysterious qualities of Christianity as the ultimate seems to be total abstention which would mean the end of the human race.

robert b. iadeluca
September 16, 2004 - 03:53 am
"An incalculable number of barbarian slaves, escaping from their Roman masters, entered the service of Alaric. As if in compensation, a Gothic leader. Sarus, deserted Alaric for Honorius, took with him a considerable force of Goths, and attacked the main barbarian army. Alaric holding this to be a violation of the truce that had been signed, again besieged Rome. A slave opened the gates. The Goths poured in, and for the first time in 800 years the great city was taken by an enemy. (410).

"For three days Rome was subjected to a discriminate pillage that left the churches of St. Peter and St. Paul untouched, and spared the refugees who sought sanctuary in them. But the Huns and slaves in the army of 40,000 men could not be controlled. Hundreds of rich men were slaughtered, their women were raped and killed. It was found almost impossible to bury all the corpses that littered the streets. Thousands of prisoners were taken, among them Honorius' half sister Galla Placidia.

"Gold and silver were seized wherever found. Works of art were melted down for the prcious metals they contained. Many masterpieces of sculpture and pottery were joyously destroyed by former slaves who could not forgive the poverty and toil that had generted this beauty and wealth.

"Alaric restored discipline, and led his troops southward to conquer Sicily. But in that same year he was stricken with fever, and died at Cosenza. Slaves diverted the flow of the river Busento to bare a secure and spacious grave for him. The stream was then brought back to its course. To conceal the spot the slaves who had performed these labors were slain.

"Ataulf (Adolph), Alaric's brother-in-law, was chosen to succeed him as king. He agreed to withdraw his army from Italy on condition that he should be given Placidia in marriage, and that his Visigoths, as foederati of Rome, should receive southern Gaul, including Narbonne, Toulouse, and Bordeaux, for their self-govverned realm.

"Honorius refused the marriage. Placedia consented. The Gothic chieftain proclaimed that his ambition was not to destroy the Romn Empire but to preserve and strengthen it. He marched his army out of Italy, and by a judicious mixture of diplomacy and force founded the Visigothic kingdome of Gaul, theoretically subject to the empire, and with its capital at Toulouse (414). A year later he was assassinated. Placidia, who loved him, wished to remain a perpetual widow, but was awarded by Honorius to the general Constantius.

"After the death of Constantius (421) and Honorius (423), Placidia became regent for her son Valentinian III, and for twenty-five years ruled the Empire of the West with no discredit to her sex."

An amazing mixture of goodness and evil during this period of time.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
September 16, 2004 - 05:36 am
Mausoleum of Galla Placida. Click the picture to see the mosaics inside.

Rich7
September 16, 2004 - 05:43 am
to religion was the Shakers. A religious sect that came to the US from Europe and propagated solely through conversion of others. All members of the sect practiced total celibacy, and hence, did not procreate.

The only thing that remains of the Shakers these days is a few restored villages of historical curiosity, and the use of the sect's name to describe a style of furniture.

Jan Sand
September 16, 2004 - 10:33 am
I apologise for being off topic but on reading about the legal innovations of the emperors I became curious about how writing was stored and used.

The papyrus scroll was evidently common and since the paper thus made by laminating and pounding papyrus leaves was rather brittle, it had to be rolled and not folded. Animal skins were also used but these were thicker and heavier. Apparently paper as we know it was not used before 400AD.

More information can be found at http://www.csu.edu.au/faculty/arts/humss/art317/bookform.htm

Éloïse De Pelteau
September 16, 2004 - 11:00 am
In a time of Chaos the Rabbies decided that they must do the unprecedented and write down the oral law, THE TALMUD

robert b. iadeluca
September 16, 2004 - 11:38 am
Rome was seeing religion fighting religion or, being more specific, Chrianity fighting "paganism." You may find this ARTICLE relevant.

Robby

Fifi le Beau
September 16, 2004 - 12:13 pm
Alaric sacks Rome and takes away as many treasures as his men can carry. The melting down of statues for their precious metals reminded me of a story in our local paper last week.

The U.S. military has taken down a bronze statue from Iraq. They melted it down to cast a new statue which is now on display at an Army base in Texas. The picture that accompanied the article of the new statue was small, but it seemed to be a man kneeling as though he was praying.

This is one item of thousands that have been taken from the vanquished. The sacking of museums goes on today as it did in the days when Alaric took Rome. Personal mementos have found their way to the coffers of the victors.

To the victors go the spoils.

Fifi

Jan Sand
September 16, 2004 - 12:16 pm
Interesting that you put the US military in the role of the barbarians

robert b. iadeluca
September 16, 2004 - 12:38 pm
Jan brings up an interesting point. As we move through Mankind's "progress", it is so easy (as has been pointed out here many times) to see each side through our own darkened glasses. Or, as I believe the Bible puts it, not to "see the mote in our own eye."

Robby

Fifi le Beau
September 16, 2004 - 01:50 pm
Jan Sand....

I thought everyone knew the U.S. Military takes orders, they do not decide where they will go or who they will fight. They move and act on orders from their civilian leaders.

You were the one to equate the U.S. military with barbarians, not I. They were simply following the orders of civilians who control the U.S. Military.

No one surely thinks that some private decided to take a statue weighing a thousand pounds home in his duffle bag. I don't, and I suppose it was presumptuous on my part to think that everyone knew the chain of command.

Fifi

robert b. iadeluca
September 16, 2004 - 01:59 pm
Please, folks. Please? Issues, not personalities.

Robby

Justin
September 16, 2004 - 02:29 pm
Robby; You brought up the personality of John Danforth so I guess I can poke at him a little. When he sponsored Clarence Thomas in the Senate for Bush senior and excoriated Anita Hill for telling the truth to power I thought he was less than human but now that he recognizes the evil in religion and wants to do something about it I'm all for him.

Malryn (Mal)
September 16, 2004 - 02:30 pm
Not to make it an "issue", but I think FIFI's comment was perfectly reasonable. How many of us think of the chain of command in our society? How many Romans did? And, in this case, how many Germans did? How many times have we seen thousands and thousands of Roman soldiers go out and do battle because of the will of one emperor?

If someone thinks a pre-emptive attack on a country by another country is barbaric, does that make barbarians of a whole nation of people, or just the leader who ordered it? Hmm, worth thinking about, isn't it?

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
September 16, 2004 - 02:35 pm
Some comments regarding particularly issues are perfectly reasonable. Let us, however, in presenting them not touch upon our opinion of other participants. We can all agree to disagree. That is what makes this discussion so long-lasting.

Robby

Justin
September 16, 2004 - 02:43 pm
Not only do our troops leave mementos of their presence like "Kilroy was here" but they are also the world's best souvenir hunters. I wanted a ceremonial sword but I settled for a couple of bayonets (one of which turned out to have been made in the USA) and a bunch of funny money. I would not put it past some private putting a thousand pound bronze statue in his duffel bag. We are ingenious.

I wonder if the praying statue on the army base in Texas is a portrait of our favorite prayor.

Malryn (Mal)
September 16, 2004 - 02:55 pm
Because JAN SAND, born an American, has lived in Finland most of the time for over thirty years, his point-of-view is not exactly like that of your next door neighbor. This is a fact some of us here might not know. I find it stimulating and often provocative. It certainly makes me think.

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
September 16, 2004 - 03:05 pm
This has nothing to do with this discussion, except for the fact that I've been a participant here since it began. Tomorrow evening I am flying to Pennsylvania for my grandson's baptism and something of a family reunion.

I've had a new leg brace for less than a month, and discovered I couldn't lock the knee. This meant I still couldn't walk. This fact caused me some concern because I want to get out of the wheelchair at the cockpit area of the plane and walk onto the plane.

Last night I figured out a way to lock the brace. I then practiced walking with crutches. Funny what sitting in a wheelchair for a long time can do, not just physically. My confidence was shot when I first started to walk, but was much better after I walked awhile.

Wish me luck, folks. It's going to take me two planes to get to Allentown, and an hour's drive after that to get to my son's house. After I get there and heave a big sigh of relief, I intend to have a wonderful time with my two little grandchildren, their parents and a grownup granddaughter who is coming from Connecticut.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
September 16, 2004 - 03:08 pm
Mal, you see what attending the Virginia Bash did for you? From now on we're never going to know where you are!!

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
September 16, 2004 - 03:16 pm
You made me laugh, ROBBY. I hope my next trip will be a flight to Maine next summer to see my sister who lives in that state, my New Hampshire brother and my sister who lives in Massachusetts. England's not far from Boston, and France is just across the bridge from there. Yup, who knows where I'll go next?

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
September 16, 2004 - 04:17 pm
Durant continues:-

"Even in Tacitus' days the Vandals were a numerous and powerful nation, possessing the central and eastern portions of modern Prussia. By the time of Constantine they had moved southward into Hungary. Their armies having suffered an overwhelming defeat at the hands of the Visigoths, the remaining Vandals asked permission to cross the Danube and enter the empire.

"Constantine consented, and for seventy years they increased and multiplied in Pannonia. The successes of Alaric stirred their imagination. The withdrawal of legions from beyond the Alps to defend Italy left the rich West invitingly open. In 406 great masses of Vandals, Alani, and Suevi poured over the Rhine and ravaged Gaul. They plundered Mainz, and massacred many of the inhabitants.

"They moved north into Belgica, and sacked and burned the imperial city of Trier. They bridged the Meuse and the Aisne, and pillaged Reims, Amiens, Arras, and Tournai, almost reaching the English Channel.

"Turning south, they crossed the Seine and the Loire into Aquitaine and wreaked their vandal fury upon almost all its cities except Toulouse, which was heroically defnded by its Bishop Exuperius. They paused at the Pyrenees, then turned east and pillaged Narbonne.

"Gaul had seldom known so thorough a devastation.

"In 409 they entered Spain, 100,000 strong. There, as in Gaul and the East, Roman rule had brought oppressive taxation and orderly administration, wealth concentrated in immense estates, a populace of slaves and serfs and impoverished freemen. Yet, by the mere grace of stability and law, Spain was now among the most prosperous of Roman provinces, and Merida, Cartagena, Cordova, Seveille, and Tarragona were among the richest and most cultured cities of the Empire.

"Into this apparently secure peninsula the Vandals, Suevi, and Alani descended. For two years they plundered Spain from the Pyrenees to the Strait, and extended their conquest even to the African coast. Honorius, unable to defend Roman soil with Roman arms, bribed the Visigoths of southwestern Gaul to recapture Spain for the Empire. Their able King Wallia accomplished the task in well-planned campaigns (420). The Suevi retreated into northwest Spain, the Vandals southward into the Andalusia that still bears their name.

" Wallia shamed the faithlessness of Roman diplomats by restoring Spain to the imperial power."

More and more the names of "barbarian" leaders and tribes come to the fore as we watch the Roman Empire disintegrate before our very eyes. Why? Why?

Robby

hegeso
September 16, 2004 - 04:17 pm
Malryn, congratulations and good luck

robert b. iadeluca
September 16, 2004 - 04:19 pm
Durant continues:-

"Even in Tacitus' days the Vandals were a numerous and powerful nation, possessing the central and eastern portions of modern Prussia. By the time of Constantine they had moved southward into Hungary. Their armies having suffered an overwhelming defeat at the hands of the Visigoths, the remaining Vandals asked permission to cross the Danube and enter the empire.

"Constantine consented, and for seventy years they increased and multiplied in Pannonia. The successes of Alaric stirred their imagination. The withdrawal of legions from beyond the Alps to defend Italy left the rich West invitingly open. In 406 great masses of Vandals, Alani, and Suevi poured over the Rhine and ravaged Gaul. They plundered Mainz, and massacred many of the inhabitants.

"They moved north into Belgica, and sacked and burned the imperial city of Trier. They bridged the Meuse and the Aisne, and pillaged Reims, Amiens, Arras, and Tournai, almost reaching the English Channel.

"Turning south, they crossed the Seine and the Loire into Aquitaine and wreaked their vandal fury upon almost all its cities except Toulouse, which was heroically defnded by its Bishop Exuperius. They paused at the Pyrenees, then turned east and pillaged Narbonne.

"Gaul had seldom known so thorough a devastation.

"In 409 they entered Spain, 100,000 strong. There, as in Gaul and the East, Roman rule had brought oppressive taxation and orderly administration, wealth concentrated in immense estates, a populace of slaves and serfs and impoverished freemen. Yet, by the mere grace of stability and law, Spain was now among the most prosperous of Roman provinces, and Merida, Cartagena, Cordova, Seveille, and Tarragona were among the richest and most cultured cities of the Empire.

"Into this apparently secure peninsula the Vandals, Suevi, and Alani descended. For two years they plundered Spain from the Pyrenees to the Strait, and extended their conquest even to the African coast. Honorius, unable to defend Roman soil with Roman arms, bribed the Visigoths of southwestern Gaul to recapture Spain for the Empire. Their able King Wallia accomplished the task in well-planned campaigns (420). The Suevi retreated into northwest Spain, the Vandals southward into the Andalusia that still bears their name.

" Wallia shamed the faithlessness of Roman diplomats by restoring Spain to the imperial power."

More and more the names of "barbarian" leaders and tribes come to the fore as we watch the Roman Empire disintegrate before our very eyes. Why? Why?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 16, 2004 - 04:20 pm
Who were the VANDALS?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 16, 2004 - 04:28 pm
An excerpt from the previous link:--

"The Vandals were Arian Christians, and especially under Gaiseric and his son, Hunneric, they harshly persecuted Orthodox Christianity."

Once again, although the battle was over the possession of land, religion reared its ugly head -- this time between those believed in the Divine Trinity vs those who did not.

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
September 16, 2004 - 05:07 pm
Happy Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur to our Jewish participants.

Eloïse

robert b. iadeluca
September 16, 2004 - 05:14 pm
A MAP showing the division of Europe among the various "barbarian" nations. Scroll down for an explanation of the map.

Robby

Justin
September 16, 2004 - 05:46 pm
New Year's Greetings to all.

Mal; It is wonderful to know you are actually out of the wheelchair and moving about on crutches. Good Luck.

JoanK
September 16, 2004 - 06:04 pm
Shana Tova (Happy New Year) to all.

Mal: great news. Keep boogying!! Even if it's tough. you're tougher.

robert b. iadeluca
September 16, 2004 - 06:05 pm
The Cayman Islands, where George lives, has already reported deaths from Hurricane Ivan. Jeanne is now reported to be of hurricane strength and is headed in a similar direction. We continue to think of our good friend, George.

Robby

JoanK
September 16, 2004 - 06:17 pm
JAN: thank you. Ever since my daughter started to grow Egyptian papyrus in her yard, I have been looking for something that would tell me how the Egyptians made paper, so I can try it. I imagined all sorts of complex glues. Who thought they just mashed them together, and let the plant juices do the sticking. Can't wait to try it next time I'm in California.

I'll keep good thoughts for George and all in that area. George, we miss you.

Justin
September 16, 2004 - 06:41 pm
Why, Robby? You ask Why? I'll tell you why. You remember the Egyptians and Ahknaten. He ignored the military and allowed it to be infiltrated by non Egyptians. He spent his time pitching woo to one of his boys while changing the religion of the country. The Aten people were given the power while the Amun people were deposed. Rome is subjected to the same problems: new religion in power, complacency, the army is no longer Roman. No one learns from history.

Bubble
September 17, 2004 - 12:15 am
Something is not clear: Is the difference between Aryan Christians and Orthodox Christians the belief in Trinity? Are orthodox Christians called Catholics?



Since I received a "Belgica" education, this chapter about the Vandals was an important page of all our History books, but never was itr explained so clearly as by Durant. In French we always used the words Vandale, Visigoth and Ostrogoth to designate rude uncultured people.



Thanks for the wishes for the High Holidays. Those are important family events and reunions apart from their intrinsic meaning.



Mal, have a good time!



George, I keep fingers crossed for your and the family's welfare.

robert b. iadeluca
September 17, 2004 - 03:29 am
Bubble, in this article about ARIANISM it states that the genuine doctrine of Arius denies that the Son is of one essence, nature, or substance with God and that the Son is not consubstantial with the Father. It is my understanding, unless I am corrected, that the Orthodox belief that says they are One "won out" in that famous conference.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 17, 2004 - 03:53 am
"Still hungry for conquest and bread, the Vandals crossed over into Africa (429). If we may believe Procopius and Jordanes, they came by the invitation of the Roman governor of Africa, Boniface, who wished their aid against his rival, Aetius, successor to Stilicho. The story is of uncertain anthority.

"In any case the Vandal king was quite capable of originating the plan. Gaiseric was the proud bastard son of a slave -- lame but strong -- ascetic in regimen -- undaunted in conflict -- furious in anger -- cruel in enmity -- but with an unbeaten genius for both negotiation and war.

"Arrived in Africa, his 80,000 Vandal and Alani warriors, women, and children were joined by the savage Moors, long resentful of Roman domination, and the Donatist heretics, who had been persecuted by the orthodox Christians, and now welcomed a new rule.

"Out of a population of some 8,000,000 souls in Roman North Africa, Boniface could muster only a negligible number to help his small regular army. Overwhelmingly defeated by Gaiseric's horde, he retreated to Hippo, where the aged St. Augustine aroused the population to heroic resistance.

"For fourteen months the city stood siege (430-1). Gaiseric then withdrew to meet another Roman force, and so overwhelmed it that Valentinian's ambassador signed a truce recognizing the Vandal conquest in Africa. Gaiseric observed the truce until the Romans were off their guards. Then he pounced upon rich Carthage and took it without a blow (439).

"The nobles and the Catholic clergy were dispossessed of their property, and were banished or enserfed. Lay and ecclesiastical property was seized wherever found, and torunre was not spared to discover its hiding place.

"Gaiseric was still young. Although a capable administrator, who reorganized Africa into a lucrative state, he was happiest when engaged in war. Building a great fleet, he ravaged with it the coasts of Spain, Italy, and Greece. No one could tell where his cavalry-laden ships would land next. Never in Roman history had such unhindered piracy prevailed in the western Mediterranean. At last the Emperor, as the price of the African corn on which Ravenna as well as Rome lived, made peace with the barbarian king, and even pldged him an imperial daughter in marriage.

"Rome, soon to be destroyed, continued to laugh and play."

The whole face of North Africa changes radically. Rome sleeps.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 17, 2004 - 03:58 am
Here is the bio of GAISERIC. Note the fact that he follows the doctrine of Arius and hates the Catholic Church.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 17, 2004 - 04:05 am
Here is a bio of BONIFACE.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 17, 2004 - 04:14 am
Here is the story of ST. AUGUSTINE. As usual, considered the source of each link. This one tells of the rivalry between the followers of Arius and the orthodox Christians.

Robby

Rich7
September 17, 2004 - 07:03 am
Have a great time enjoying your new mobility.

Rich

Rich7
September 17, 2004 - 07:40 am
The bio of Gaiseric was interesting. It seems, being an Arian, he found much of his ferocity in his hatred of the Catholic church. I find it hard to understand how nit-picking theological differences (as in Arianism vs Catholicism -both Christian) can drive people to go to war, but then all I needed was to read this morning's paper.

It seems that a CIA report on Iraq states that if a stable government is not established, there could be an outbreak of civil war, a war of Suni vs Shite.

Rich

Justin
September 17, 2004 - 02:15 pm
Yes, the orthodox Christians, called Catholic, won the battle for the Trinity but only after they bumped off Arian when it looked as though he would win.

Mary W
September 17, 2004 - 02:22 pm
Does anyone know what are the flying conditions in NC ? Will Mal be able to fly ? I can't find out about flights up there- cant read the small print. If any of you knows anything please e-mail me. I'm not a worrier but this storm is such a devil I am concerned. Hank Evans

Justin
September 17, 2004 - 02:29 pm
The article about Arianism is the biggest package of gobbledegook I have read in a long time. Writing like that is an art form- meant to put off critical readers and to convince the faithful that it is too complex for them to understand.

Malryn (Mal)
September 17, 2004 - 04:26 pm
Mary W, I'm home and fine.

The US Air part of the terminal at RDU was hit by a tornado just before Dorian and I arrived just before five, after driving through heavy rains and flooding on the highway. The tornado took out part of a canopy in the parking lot, broke windows, and apparently scattered debris over some runways, so all flights were cancelled.

When we got out of line and came home, there were hundreds of people trying to get on another flight. As far as I know, there won't be any US Air planes flying out of RDU until sometime tomorrow.

Dorian and I did stop at the supermarket on the way home, where we not only got soaked to the skin, I bought some Starbuck's Frappuccino and doughnut holes, something I rarely ever drink and eat.

That's how my cat, Mitta Baben, and I are going to spend the weekend, eating doughnut holes and accepting what we cannot change.

Mal

Éloïse De Pelteau
September 17, 2004 - 04:52 pm
Mal, Oh! that is awful but I am glad you are OK, enjoy the donut holes and the frappuccino.

Eloïse

robert b. iadeluca
September 17, 2004 - 05:32 pm
I am here for just a few minutes and then will sign off again. Here in Warrenton, Virginia, we are experiencing what the meteorologists are calling a Tropical Depression, the remnants of Ivan. For hours now the rains have been torrential and unceasing. Hour after hour without stopping. Lightning flashes every few seconds for hour after hour. Almost unceasing thunder. Constant flood and tornado warnings being given.

The weather man says that in this area we will have a brief respite before it starts again so I am taking advantage of that period to contact your folks. Tornado warnings are to be until midnight or early morning. Flood warnings are until Saturday night or later. To make life more interesting, I have been wanting for some time to have a complete roofing job down and have been waiting until I had enough money. There is a hole in the kitchen ceiling and a pot on the table below where it drips - drips - drips.

However, none of this compares to what has happened to states farther south so this is not complaining time. We all know that Jeanne is out there following Ivan's path and behind Jeanne is Karl. The hurricane after that is supposed to begin with an "L" and be female. So I have a name to suggest. LOLA. "What Lola wants, Lola gets!"

So please continue without me. I will be on sometime tomorrow. And -- please -- share your thoughts about what Durant has been telling us.

Robby

winsum
September 17, 2004 - 07:41 pm
thinking about you folks there. california could usd some rain but the storm coming up our way will vere off and go to arizona and nevada. I talked to Mal earlier o the phone. she's tired and disappointted and going to bed early. . . pretty much as she says.

someone keep track of robbie..telephone? that works in a thunderstorm or do you get hit by lightning through the wires. I wonder how storms affected the ancients or does it turn us into the ancients when our power goes out and the roofs fly off and there is no shelter. . . or the crowds make it impossible to get there. claire

Mary W
September 17, 2004 - 09:27 pm
WINSUM--Never never never use the phone in an electrical storm!

Having lived in tornado alley or in the path of hurricanes in Louisiana and Texas all of m life I have seen and survived them all.

Many years ago, shortly after we had moved to Houston, I was prepring lunch for my one year old son when the phone rang. It was just outside the kitchen in the hall.Annoyed at the interruption, I answered the call. It was my husband. I said I was

Mary W
September 17, 2004 - 09:47 pm
I was fixing Johns lunch and could he call back in a few minutes. He could not so I told him to wait a minute, walked into the kitchen whereupon there was a horrendous clap of thunder and a bolt of lightenjng hit the house. A huge ball of fire tore through the house, setting the attic on fire, ripping out part of the wall where I was standing and scaring the hell out of my baby. I walked back to the phone which miraculously was still working and calmly told my husband that we had been struck by lightning and to please call the fire department. I comforted my screaming child and waited.( I'm wonderful in a crisis) The firemen put out the fire and put a stout cover of some sort over the hole in the roof- about the size of a grang piano. The next night we endur ed our first hurricane. It was terrifying. One can never forget the sound of the wind and the sheets of rain.

The firemen told me that if I hadn;t left the phone when I did I'd have been killed and not to ever use the phone during a storm. I never have.

robert b. iadeluca
September 18, 2004 - 04:44 am
Well, I am back again. The rains have stopped (for now?) but the winds . . . . I can't measure them but the tops of the tall trees are swaying back and forth. The temperature has dropped considerably. What happened to the "tropical" depression? I assume that it is pulling some cold air in from Eloise's neck of the woods.

All of this won't be even a blip in the history books 500 years from now so shall we see what Durant has to say? If we don't get into his book and discuss it a bit, we'll take two years this time and not one year.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 18, 2004 - 05:06 am
"Three quarters of a century had passed since the Huns had precipitated the barbarian invasions by crossing the Volga. Their further movement westward had been a slow migration, less like the conquest of Alaric and Gaiseric than like the spread of colonists across the American continent. Gradually they had settled down in and near Hungary and had brought under their rule many of the German tribes.

"About the year 433 the Hun king Rua died, and left his throne to his nephews Bleda and Attila. Bleda was slain -- some said by Attila -- about 444, and Attila (i.e. in Gothic, 'Little Father') ruled divers tribes north of the Danube from the Don to the Rhine.

"He differed from the other barbarian conquerors in trusting to cunning more than to force. He ruled by using the heathen superstitions of his people to sanctify his majesty. His victories were prepared by the exaggerated stories of his cruelty which perhaps he had himself originated. At last even his Christian enemies called him the 'scourge of God' and were so terrified by his cunning that only the Goths could save them.

"He was not a savage. He had a sense of honor and justice, and often proved himself more magnanimous than the Romans. He lived and dressed simply, ate and drank moderately, and left luxury to his inferiors, who loved to display their gold and silver utensils, harness, and swords, and the delicate embroidery that arrested the skillful fingers of their wives.

"Attila had many wives but scorned that mixture of monogamy and debauchery which was popular in some circles of Ravenna and Rome. His palace was a huge loghouse floored and walled with planed planks, but adorned with elegantly carved or polished wood, and reinforced with carpets and skins to keep out the cold.

"His capital was a large village probably on the site of the present Buda -- a city which until our century was by some Hungarians called Erzelnburg, the City of Attila.

"He was now (444) the most powerful man in Europe. Theodosius II of the Eastern Empire and Valentinian of the Western, both paid him tribute as a bribe to peace, disguising it among their peoples as payments for services rendered by a client king. Able to put into the field an army of 500,000 men, Attila saw no reason why he should not make himself master of all Europe and the Near East.

"In 441 his generals and troops crossed the Danube, captured Sirmium, Singidunnum (Belgrade), Naissus (Nish) and Sardica (Sofia), and threatened Constantinople itself. Theodosius II sent an army against them. It was defeated, and the Eastern Empire won peace only by raising its yearly tribute from 700 to 1100 pounds of gold.

"In 447 the Huns entered Thrace, Thessaly, and Scythia (southern Russia), sacked seventy towns, and took thousands into slavery. The captured women were added to the wives of the captors, and so began generations of blood mixture that left traces of Mongol features as far west as Bavaria. These Hun raids ruined the Balkans for four centuries.

"The Danube ceased for a long time to be a main avenue of commerce between East and West, and the cities on its banks decayed."

Almost every school child know the name, Attila the Hun, but know so little about him. I am one of them and have already learned more about him from Durant.

Any comments?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 18, 2004 - 05:14 am
Here is an EXCELLENT article about ATTILA THE HUN -- well worth reading in detail.

You may find the "Selected Thoughts" at the end of interest.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 18, 2004 - 05:35 am
Here are some EXCELLENT PHOTOS OF BUDAPEST.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 18, 2004 - 06:10 am
Here is a MAP OF SOUTHEASTERN EUROPE DURING MIDDLE AGES where you can easily see Buda, Constantinople, and the other cities that Durant tells us about. It gives a feel of the geographical relationship between the Russian steppes where Atilla originated and Buda where he placed his new home. You are able to scroll both horizontally and vertically. Take time for downloading.

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
September 18, 2004 - 07:18 am
Robby, it's nice and warm here you know. Glad you are out of the woods (hurricane) though.

Yes, Huns had quite a philosophy: "Suffer long for mediocre but loyal Huns. Suffer not for competent but disloyal Huns."

Scrawler
September 18, 2004 - 09:35 am
Isn't Attila a hero in Hungry? It seems to me that I read some place that Hungrians consider Attila the same way the US honor George Washington.

I'm glad everyone is safe. Ivan has given us problems here in Portland, Oregon as well. We've had high winds, tropical rains, and thunder storms. As a result I seem to be attached to my cat. Kitty jumps in my lap even when I'm standing up.

Malryn (Mal)
September 18, 2004 - 09:51 am
SCRAWLER, that was funny! In Post #306, Hegeso tells us about Attila the Hun and something about what people think of him in HUNgary.



The Latest Update on the Pennsylvania Saga:

My son called about three quarters of an hour ago and told me there were heavy rains and powerful winds from Ivan last night where he lives. They now have no electricity, and they have no water because they have a well.

Chris had ordered several hundred dollars' worth of catered food for the dinner for 30 guests at his house which was to have taken place after baby Donald's baptism today. Some of it had been delivered and is now spoiling because of lack of electricity to power their refrigerators.

I guess it's just as well that Dorian and I couldn't fly to Pennsylvania, after all.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
September 18, 2004 - 10:32 am
HERE is an entirely different view of Attila indicating, among other things, that he was born in Hungary and that his ancestors came from Mongolia.

Robby

Bubble
September 18, 2004 - 11:12 am
That roast lamb is how I do it although I do not discard the garlic, and I roast it 10 minutes less than said here. This is what we had for our New Year celebration, minus the bacon.



Wow! I enjoy the same food as Attila? Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
September 18, 2004 - 11:26 am
This gives an idea of how close the nation of HUNGARY relates itself to the name of this famous man.

Robby

Sunknow
September 18, 2004 - 11:49 am
The link to "Selected Thoughts of Attila the Hun" fascinated me.

So many of the sayings cited there are with us in almost the same words today. We grew up hearing them. I suspect a lot of the quotations were passed down by word of mouth, from parent to child.

I just don't see the Huns sitting around reading a lot of books. Their knowledge of battle strategy seems to have been inborn. Where they got those wonderful "selected thoughts" I can't imagine. Lessons learned the hard way?

Sun

hegeso
September 18, 2004 - 03:28 pm
Scrawler, in my time in school I was force-fed with the glory of Attila. It filled me with such a disgust that I cannot overcome.

Robby, your post #397 has a URL, which has nothing to do with Attila the Hun. The university is named after Jozsef Attila, one of the greatest Hungarian poets. In Hungarian, the family name is first. 'Attila' became a fashionable name in Hungary.

robert b. iadeluca
September 18, 2004 - 04:13 pm
I knew that, Hegeso. I was just pointing out, as you said, that Attila is a "fashionable name in Hungary" -- a name that you never see elsewhere.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 18, 2004 - 04:31 pm
"In 451 Attila and half a million men marched to the Rhine, sacked and burned Trier and Metz, and massacred their inhabitants. All Gaul was terrified. Here was no civilized warrior like Caesar, no Christian -- however Arian -- invader like Alaric and Gaiseric. This was the awful and hideous Hun, the flagellum dei come to punish Christian and pagan alike for the enormous distance between their professions and their lives.

"In this crisis Theodoric I, aged King of the Visigoths, came to the rescue of the Empire. He joined the Romans under Aetius, and the enormous armies met on the Catalaunian Fields, near Troyes, in one of the bloodiest battles of history:--162,000 men are said to have died there, including the heroic Gothic King. The victory of the West was indecisive. Attila retreated in good order, and the victors were too exhausted, or too divided in policy, to pursue him.

"In the following year he invaded Italy.

"The first city to fall in his path was Aquileia. The Huns destroyed it so completely that it never rose again. Verona and Vicenza were more leniently treated. Pavia and Milan bought off the conqueror by surrendering their movable wealth.

"The road to Rome was not open to Attila. Aetus had too small an army to offer substantial resistance. But Attila tarried at the Po. Valentinian III fled to Rome, and thence sent to the Hun King a delegation composed of Pope Leo I and two senators. No one knows what happened at the ensuring conference. Leo was an impsng figure, and received most credit for the bloodless victory. History only records that Attila now retreated.

"Plague had broken out in his army, food was running short, and Marcian was sending reinforcements from the East (452).

"Attila marched his horde back over the Alps to his Hungarian capital, threatening to return to Italy in the next spring unless Honoria should be sent him as his bride. Meanwhile he consoled himself by adding to his harem a young lady named Ildico, the frail historic basis of the Nibelyngenlied's Kriemhild.

"He celebrated the wedding with an unusual indulgence in food and drink. On the morrow he was found dead in bed beside his young wife. He had burst a blood vessel, and the blood in his throat had choked him to death (453).

"His realm was divided among his sons, who proved incompetent to preserve it. Jealousies broke out among them. The subject tribes refused their allegiance to a disordered leadership.

"Within a few years the empire that had threatened to subdue the Greeks and the Romans, the Germans and the Gauls, and to put the stamp of Asia upon the face and soul of Europe, had broken to pieces and melted away."

Robby

winsum
September 18, 2004 - 09:29 pm
it reminds me of what happened when constantine left his power divided amongst his sons. they couldn't manage it and fought.. . destroying each other.

Bubble
September 18, 2004 - 11:30 pm
People called Attilah reminded me of the phone books in some countries of South America. there are so many people christened JESUS that one starts to wonder if maybe his name originated there!



Attilah too went over the Alps. I remember only of Hannibal's crossing feat with his elephants.
Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
September 19, 2004 - 04:06 am
"Placidia having died in 450, Valentinian III was free to err in the first person. As Olympius had persuaded Honorius to kill Stilicho who had stopped Alaric at Pollentia, so now Petronius Maximus persuaded Valentinian to kill Aetius who had stopped Attila at Troyes.

"Valentinian had no son and resented the desire of Aetius to espouse his son to Valentinian's daughter Endocia. In a mad seizure of alarm the Emperor sent for Aetius and slew him with his own hand (454). Said a member of the court:-'Sire, you have cut off your right hand with your left.'

"A few months later Petronius induced two of Aetius' followers to kill Valentinian. No one bothered to punish the assassins. Murder had long since become the accepted substitute for election. Petronius elected himself to the throne, compelled Eudoxia, Valentinian's widow to marry him, and forced Eudocia to take as her husband his son Palladius.

"If we may believe Procopius, Endoxia appealed to Gaiseric as Honoria had appealed to Attila. Gaiseric had reasons for responding. Rome was rich again despite Alaric and the Roman army was in no condition to defend Italy. The Vandal King set sail with an invincible armada (455). Only an unarmed Pope, accompanied by his local elergy, barred his way between Ostia and Rome. Leo was not able this time to dissuade the conqueror but he secured a pledge against massacre, torture, and fire.

"For four days the city was surrendered to pillage. Christian churches were spared, but all the surviving treasures of the temples were taken to the Vandal galleys. The gold tables, seven branched candlesticks, and other sacred vessels of Solomon's Temple brought to Rome by Titus four centuries before, were included in these spoils. All precious metals, ornaments, and furniture in the imperial palace were removed, and whatever remained of value in the homes of the rich.

"Thousands of captives were enslaved, husbands were separated from wives, parents from children. Gaiseric took the Empress Endoxia and her two daughters with him to Carthage, married Eudocia to his son Huneric, and sent the Empress and Placidia (the younger) to Constantinople at the requst of the Emperor Leo I. All in all, this sack of Rome was no indiscriminate vandalism, but quite in accord with the ancient laws of war.

"Carthage had leniently revenged the Roman ruthlessness of 146 B.C.

You did that to me (or I thought you did)? Well I'll fix you. So there!! And you stole valuables from the Jews? Well, I'll steal them from you.

And, in the process, women are traded around like chattel? Well, why not? It's all in the rules of war. All very legal. And ain't revenge sweet?

Robby

Bubble
September 19, 2004 - 06:50 am
nothing changes... So easy to make it all appear justified and normal, be it "rules of the war" or "rules from above".

robert b. iadeluca
September 19, 2004 - 06:54 am
Durant tells us that history is only important in the sense that we are applying it to contemporary times. So what are we doing regarding the lessons we are learning from the above post?

Robby

Jan Sand
September 19, 2004 - 07:08 am
That the history of the fall of Rome seems to have parallels in current events would seem to indicate we as a nation can redirect ourselves to better ends. Since the motivations towards our goals and our tactics in reaching them seem only slightly modulated by the better concepts of modern morality, I wonder what the average person is supposed to do. Await, perhaps, the rise of a human mutant with the power to quell the raw exercise of power inherent within the leadership of almost all nations?

robert b. iadeluca
September 19, 2004 - 07:17 am
Jan;-Aren't we, the average persons, already doing that -- that is, waiting?

Robby

Jan Sand
September 19, 2004 - 07:29 am
Is waiting enough? At 78 (almost 79) I cannot even convince people that I am still capable of performing remunerative work, whatever my experience and basic capabilities. Swerving the direction of the world away from the abyss is as unatainable as throwing Jupiter out of orbit.

Bubble
September 19, 2004 - 07:52 am
Waiting or sighing in helplessness and continuing the daily routine?

robert b. iadeluca
September 19, 2004 - 08:17 am
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

- - - Edmund Burke

Jan Sand
September 19, 2004 - 08:34 am
What am I thinking? Of course! I'll phone all my friends to stimulate them and the three of us will register and vote for Ralph Nader! Good sense will triumph!

robert b. iadeluca
September 19, 2004 - 08:42 am
A friendly reminder, Jan, that we refrain in this discussion from bringing up names of current political figures.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 19, 2004 - 08:43 am
Here is a BIO of Pope Leo who negotiated with Attila. As always, consider the source of the link.

Robby

Jan Sand
September 19, 2004 - 08:48 am
Is Mickey Mouse acceptable?

robert b. iadeluca
September 19, 2004 - 08:51 am
Here is a BIO of Pope Leo who negotiated with Attila. As always, consider the source of the link.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 19, 2004 - 08:52 am
Here is a BRIEF BIO of Emperor Leo I -- not to be confused with Pope Leo I.

Robby

winsum
September 19, 2004 - 08:59 am
aren't popes political these days?

robert b. iadeluca
September 19, 2004 - 09:13 am
Yes, Claire, but we didn't mention the current one. We deal here only with historical figures.

However, considering the state of his health and considering how long our discussions last, we may be covering his death some time along. Of course, to be completely technical, we would then be discussing a former pope.

I would imagine that those of us who had, by that time, gone deeply into the development of Christianity, would find the election of a new pope intriguing.

Robby

winsum
September 19, 2004 - 09:26 am
Angels and Demons by Dan Brown is a novel dealing with the election of a new pope. I learned so much about the Vatican and the procedures and all of it couched in friendly smart suspense terms..He's currently on the best seller list with The DaVinci Code in the same setting. . . I never thought I'd find all that interesting. it does relate to POPES if that's what we're about. . . . . claire

robert b. iadeluca
September 19, 2004 - 09:33 am
"Chaos in Italy was now comlete. A half century of invasion, famine, and pestilence had left thousands of farms ruined, thousands of acres untilled, not through exhaustion of the soil but through the exhaustion of man.

"St. Ambrose (c.420) mourned the devastation and depopulation of Bologna, Modena, Piacenza. Pope Gelasus (c.480) described great regions of northern Italy as almost denuded of the human species. Rome itself had shrunk from 1,500,000 souls to some 300,000 in one century. All the great cities of the Empire were now in the East.

"The Campagna around Rome, once rich in villas and fertile farms, had been abandoned for the security of walled towns. The towns themselves had been contracted to some forty acres as a means of economically walling them for defense. In many cases the walls were improvised from the debris of theaters, basilicas, and temples that had once adorned the municipal splendor of Italy.

"In Rome some wealthy still remained even after Gaiseric, and Rome and other Italian cities would recover under Theodoric and the Lombards. But in 470 a general impoverishment of fields and cities, of senators and proletarians, depressed the spirits of a once great race to an epicurean cyncicism that doubted all gods but Priapus, a timid childlessness that shunned the resonsibilities of life, and an angry cowardice that denounced every surrender and shirked every martial task.

"Through all this economic and biological decline ran political decay. Aristocrats who could administer but cold not rule. Businessmen too absorbed in personal gain to save the peninsula. Generals who won by bribery more than they could win by arms. A bureaucracy ruinously expensive and irremediably corrupt.

"The majestic tree had rotted in its trunk, and was ripe for a fall."

So even the Romans of the fourth century looked at the buildings constructed prior to the birth of Christ as ancient ruins and used them as building material. Putting it another way, when in our time we visit the magnificent remains of Rome, we are seeing civilization as it existed prior to the birth of Christ. Apparently decline came rapidly.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 19, 2004 - 09:35 am
Claire:-In reaction to your Post 420, remember that the name of our current volume is The Age of Faith.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 19, 2004 - 09:40 am
"All the great cities of the Empire were now in the East."

As I begin to see the direction in which the Roman Empire is going, more and more I think about what we learned in Our Oriental Heritage (Durant's first volume.) It is becoming increasingly relevant (at least to me).

Robby

winsum
September 19, 2004 - 09:46 am
on faith. . . you know my position, but you did promise a wider field of exploration.

the following sounds very current to me and it's not about faith but history

Aristocrats who could administer but cold not rule. Businessmen too absorbed in personal gain to save the peninsula. Generals who won by bribery more than they could win by arms. A bureaucracy ruinously expensive and irremediably corrupt.

robert b. iadeluca
September 19, 2004 - 09:51 am
Our area of exploration here is very wide providing we:-

1 - Don't prosyletize our own religion or lack thereof,
2 - Don't bring up the names of current political figures, and
3 - Address issues, not personalities of participants.

This still leaves a very wide area for exploration and is what we have been doing for three years.

As I see it, our discussion of the third volume is not about faith, but about history which took place during a period which Durant describes as primarily an "age of faith."

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
September 19, 2004 - 09:52 am
One person cannot raise the bar even a little, but many can. Not everybody is that interested about our own past except some loving family members, perhaps because according to the younger generation we have not done such a good job of it, and as far as our generation is concerned, we are already history to them. Even so, our descendants are living according to what they were taught early in life whether they like to admit it or not.

Our family is influenced by what we do and what we did and that has repercussions throughout their life. Never in a thousand years did I think that we had made such a strong impression on our children and it's only long after they had grown up that the full extent of it became apparent to me.

To me that is the best way, perhaps the only way changes occur in society over a long period of time. But during a war the victors can drastically change the course of the history of the conquered land as 'Barbarians' did in Rome and Europeans did when they discovered America.

Whether the present war activities will be significant in stopping the reign of terror we are going through or not might depend on the election of the next President, who will rule the world according to the lessons he learned as a child.

I am more and more doubtful about the true value of a democracy in its present form.

Eloïse

winsum
September 19, 2004 - 10:06 am
do we really have a democracy in it's current form . . .someone said to me, one time that we have a "republic" snce we don't have "direct" voting in our national elections. . . is that correct? I don't think the ancients even got to vote did they or did I miss something here. nothing stays the same. Change is the only thing we can count on and contributing to it as individuals is hard to imagine, but imagine how it would be if we COULDN'T.. . . claire

JoanK
September 19, 2004 - 11:35 am
WINSOM: I haven't read Dan Brown's new book, but if it contains the same level of scholarship as the DeVinci Code, I wouldn't use it for a minute as a source of knowledge. There are plenty of history books which discuss the election of Popes. Several are discussed in "A Distant Mirror" by Barbara Tuchman.

Bubble
September 19, 2004 - 11:41 am
Dan Brown explained in Angels and Demons the mechanics of a Pope election exactly as it is done. I remember very well the election of the previous pope John and of the present pope. It was all explained in magazines and newspapers at the time, the locking of doors, the burned ballots etc. This is very well written about in Brown's book. Bubble

Malryn (Mal)
September 19, 2004 - 12:07 pm
From the Catholic Encyclopedia. Note the ad at the bottom for a book called The Da Vinci Hoax.

Election of the Popes

Shasta Sills
September 19, 2004 - 12:22 pm
Somebody asked earlier if the Barbarians were really any more barbaric than the Romans. Yes, they were. They didn't build anything or create anything. All they did was take what others had built; and what they didn't want, they destroyed. Even though the Romans fought wars all the time, they also constructed buildings and roads and aqueducts. If their art wasn't original, at least they produced art. The Barbarians really were barbarians.

Shasta Sills
September 19, 2004 - 12:48 pm
Mal, I am so sorry the weather spoiled your trip. I know you were looking forward to it, and it must have been a bitter disappointment. That hurricane spoiled a lot of things for a lot of people. Robby says our weather problems are only a blip in the long history of civilization, but the present is where we live, not the past. History is interesting, but this little blip of ours is all that really belongs to us, such as it is.

winsum
September 19, 2004 - 12:49 pm
I read the entire page about the elections of the pope thruout the centuries. there were so many variations in the LAW, that almost anything the novel aludes to can be supported or not supported. It is interesting that the seclusion of the cardinals until they elect a new pope is such an important aspect of the selection in ANGELS AD DEMONS and is a fairly recent inclusion to help keep politics out of it. Muchof tis sounds like our electoral college withonly a nod to the wishes of the general public. Dan Brown has certainly raised a storm among the catholic church. Perhaps it's healthy to have so much mde transparent in a way which is easy for us all to approach. I know that otherwise I would't have read about it in any of the scholarly books on the subject and now I'm interested enough to read this long article. . . no I'm not a catholic afor those who don't know me, not much of anything. . . .claire

Shasta Sills
September 19, 2004 - 12:53 pm
JoanK, I agree that Dan Brown's novels should be taken with a grain of salt. He's writing fiction, not history. He takes a few bits of history and twists them into an entertaining tangle of fiction. I haven't read any of his other books, but "The DaVinci Code" was definitely fiction embroidered around a few distorted facts.

Shasta Sills
September 19, 2004 - 01:00 pm
Claire, I had to laugh at your description of yourself--not a Catholic and not much of anything else." That about describes me too. I'm an ex-Catholic though and I agree that it wouldn't hurt to submit some of the church's activities to close scrutiny.

winsum
September 19, 2004 - 01:17 pm
I was circumventing the rule. you only get to say what you really are here. . ONCE and I've done it although not recently. . . robby am I still legal?

robert b. iadeluca
September 19, 2004 - 01:18 pm
Those who play with fire may end up getting burned.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 19, 2004 - 01:57 pm
"The final years were a kaleidoscope of imperial mediocrities.

"The Goths of Gaul proclaimed one of their generals, Avitus, emperor (455). The Senate refused to confirm him, and he was transformed into a bishop. Majorian (456-61) labored bravely to restore order, but was deposed by his patricius or prime minister, the Visigoth Ricimer.

"Severus (461-5) was an inefficient tool of Ricimer. Anthemius (467-72) was a half-pagan philosopher, unacceptable to the Christian West. Ricimer besieged and captured him and had him killed.

"Olybrius, by grace of Ricimer, ruled for two months (472) and surprised himself by dying a natural death. Glycerius (473) was soon deposed, and for two years Rome was ruled by Julius Nepos.

"At this juncture a new conglomeration of barbarians swept down into Italy -- Heruli, Sciti, Rugii, and other tribes that had once acknowledged the rule of Attila. At the same time a Pannonian general, Orestes, deposed Nepos, and established his son Romulus (nicknamed Augustulus) on the throne (475). The new invaders demanded from Orestes a third of Italy. When he refused they slew him and replaced Romulus with their general Odoacer (476).

"This son of Attila's minister Edecon was not without ability. He convened the cowed Senate, and through it he offered to Zeno, the new Emperor of the East, sovereignty over all the Empire, provided that Odoacer might as his patricius govern Italy.

"Zeno consented, and the line of Western emperors came to an end.

"No one appears to have seen in this event the 'fall of Rome.' On the contrary, it seemed to be a blessed unification of the Empire, as formerly under Constantine. The Roman Senate saw the matter so, and raised a statue to Zeno in Rome.

"The Germanization of the Italian army, government, and peasantry, and the natural multiplication of the Germans in Italy, had proceeded so long that the political consequences seemed to be negligible shifts on the surface of the national scene. Actually, however, Odoacer ruled Italy as a king, with small regard for Zeno. In effect the Germans had conquered Italy as Gaiseric had conquered Africa -- as the Visigoths had conquered Spain -- as the Angles and Saxons were conquering Britain -- as the Franks were conquering Gaul.

"In the West the great Empire was no more.

"Ethnically the migrations brought a new mingling of racial elements -- a substantial infusion of Germanic blood into Italy, Gaul, and Spain, and of Asiatic blood into Russia, the Balkans, and Hungary. What happened was the elimination of weak individuals and strains through war and other forms of competition.

"Politically the conquest replaced a higher with a lower form of monarchy. It augmented the authority of persons, and reduced the power and protection of laws.

"Individualism and violence increased.

"Historically, the conquest destroyed the outward form of what had already inwardly decayed. It cleared away with regrettable brutality and thoroughness a system of life which, with all its gifts of order, culture, and law, had worn itself into senile debiility, and had lost the powers of regeneration and growth.

"A new beginning was now possible. The Empire in the West faded, but the states of modern Europe were born. A thousand years before Christ northern invaders had entered Italy, subdued and mingled with its inhabitants, borrowed civilization from them, and with them, through eight centuries, had buiilt a new civilization.

"Four hundred years after Christ the process was repeated. The wheel of history came full turn. The beginning and the end were the same.

"But the end was always a beginning."

I remember a year or more ago likening the chaos of a civilization before it died to the final burst of light of a star before it died. We saw here emperors changed into bishops, emperors deposed by their prime ministers, emperors being only half-Cristian, further invasions by Germanic and Asiatic tribes.

And then, irony of ironies, the son of Attila's minister ascending the throne and offering the entire Empire of the West to the Emperor of the East. The Emperor of the East accepts and the Empire of the West suddenly comes to an end. No one notices.

Durant calls to our attention that the mingling of the blood of the tribes with the old worn out native Roman blood had long taken place and ever so quietly the birth of the modern European states was taking place.

The great Roman Empire, as we had all seen it in its glory, no longer existed.

Pax vobiscum.

Robby

JoanK
September 19, 2004 - 03:19 pm
""No one appears to have seen in this event the 'fall of Rome.' On the contrary, it seemed to be a blessed unification of the Empire, as formerly under Constantine. The Roman Senate saw the matter so, and raised a statue to Zeno in Rome".

So Rome fell not with a bang, but with a whimper.

robert b. iadeluca
September 19, 2004 - 04:19 pm
Just when did the Middle Ages begin? When did they come to an end? What were the early Middle Ages? What were the high Middle Ages? Dates seem arbitrary but here are some THOUGHTS for your consideration.

Robby

Jan Sand
September 19, 2004 - 04:21 pm
When you think about it, empires, I suspect, up to and including Rome were formed by military superiority backed by a central government which had a complex relationship and a stability that maintained itself throughout its existence. Perhaps the older religion integrated very well into this. When Christianity came about there was a basic conflict between faith and the state.

The Hebrews had this all the time but their religion was external to that of Rome and did not challenge the state whereas Christianity penetrated the Roman state and there was a conflict as to what constituted the legitimacy of power. The Christian religion derived its legitimacy from a power superior to that of the original Roman state.

This is probably why there was such confusion in the breakdown of Roman order as the Emperors fluctuated between claiming original power or derived their power from their position in Christianity.

During the Middle Ages Kings derived their legitimacy from religion and only after Henry VIII was there a kind of half breakdown of this in England.

The American Revolution, and probably the French Revolution split with religion totally as to power legitimacy and the British Empire was, in that sense, closer to Rome in that government legitimacy did not require religious confirmation to the extent that the Catholic kings did so.

So, today, empire is totally secular and based openly on economics alone.

This is all speculation on my part and I wonder if it has any real foundation

robert b. iadeluca
September 19, 2004 - 04:22 pm
Just when did the Middle Ages begin? When did they come to an end? What were the early Middle Ages? What were the high Middle Ages? Dates seem arbitrary but here are some THOUGHTS for your consideration.

Robby

Jan Sand
September 19, 2004 - 04:46 pm
Both Christ and Mohammed seemed to lay out principles which were basically fair and decent to such an extent that there was a common saying that if there was no Hell everybody would end up there, which implied that the fountainhead of all morality is religion.

Nevertheless it seems that in the development of each religion and in the early stages there were violent bloody conflicts based upon the intensity of faith that would seem to have violated the original intents of the founders and, of course, especially amongst Muslim fundamentalists today, attempts to leave the congregation to convert to another faith frequently results in severe punishment and perhaps death.

Christianity and the Jewish religion seems to have mellowed in this respect as the punishment for departing has disappeared.

This lead me to wonder if ethical behavior is normal to all humanity and only when true and absolute belief, whether in religion or nationality (which somehow relates to religion) can justify violence does this frightful behavior take over without violating conscience.

In a funny way, the etiology of religion may be similar to the etiology of an infectious disease where, if the disease is too violent, it kills off sufferers too soon to permit the infection to spread so eventually the disease evolves and modifies itself to be milder to permit wider infection.

Scrawler
September 19, 2004 - 05:52 pm
A society that "creates" such things as art, architecture, morals, or one which "destroys" its enemies?

Don't we really need both in order for civilization to exist?

3kings
September 19, 2004 - 09:50 pm
I don't think that a 'destructive' force can advance civilization in any way. The creative spirit is the only generator that can achieve advancement.

Perhaps what is meant, that it is necessary to destroy the old to enable the birth of the new ? If that were so, why did Europe remain, as it had been during Roman times, in stagnation?

To my mind, the Greeks had a true civilization, that was overthrown by a militarist power. This power gave to European civilization, nothing but a now dead language, a set of paved roads, plumbing, and a very occasional bow to the rule of law.

There were nation states in ME and Asia, that did as much, if not more. Roman achievements fade into insignificance when compared to those of Greece.

There is of course a belief that under Rome, Christianity was bequeath to the world. What came out of Rome was "Churchianity". The philosophy of Christianity was occasionally given lip service, but on the whole, was just ignored. As it must be, under a military power. === Trevor

Justin
September 19, 2004 - 10:45 pm
Medieval terminology among historians is mixed. When scholars write about "Early Christianity" and about "Late Antiquity" and "Late Roman". They are describing the very same period. So when you ask, "When did the Middle Ages (Le Moyen Age) begin one fudges a little and generally acknowledges that the Early Middle Ages began between 450-500 CE. It is the period in which political power shifted to the east and the period in which the Church began to dominate in the west.

From the Fall of Rome to the rise of Otto in 930 CE there is period loosely described as the "Dark Ages" but Justinian and Charlemagne fall in this period and they were hardly unenlightened. However, the period is characterized by the substitution of theology for rational thought and by the substitution of localized nobility (warlords) for the power that resided in Rome.

This gradual change produced three estates in a feudal system. I don't like talking about the "Middle Ages" except in very general terms. The period is thought to have ended in the 13th century when a renaisance appeared in Europe.

We are much clearer when we talk about specific events on specific dates and tie these in with the known characteristics of the period. When we were discussing the fall of Rome we didn't think about it as "late Roman" we thought about it as a specific series of events that indicated the demise of an empire.

Jan Sand
September 20, 2004 - 01:11 am
It is dangerous to confuse some of the more obvious creations of the massive civilizations in a hierarchy of creativity. Some of the so called lesser primitive cultures have produced very impressive objects and activities which have been the roots of modern creativity. The Benin bronzes, African sculpture and masks, Russian icons, the wonderful intricate patterns of many of the American Indian cultures, African music which pervades modern culture, the fantastic utilitarian products gardens, and wonderful steel weaponry and armor produced by the Japanese - all of these are fantastic examples of the capabilities and rich creativity of all peoples, and there are many more such as in the Aztec and Mayan cultures. The loose but disciplined cavalry of the Huns was a cultural achievement, whatever the horrible result.

robert b. iadeluca
September 20, 2004 - 03:12 am
The Progress of Christianity

364-451

robert b. iadeluca
September 20, 2004 - 03:50 am
The change in the GREEN quotes in the Heading indicate where we are in the volume and the direction in which we are going.

"The foster mother of the new civilization was the Church. As the old order faded away in corruption, cowardice, and neglect, a unique army of churchmen rose to defend with energy and skill a regenerated stability and decency of life. The historic function of Christianity was to re-establish the moral basis of character and society by providing supernatural sanctions and support for the uncongenial commandments of social order -- to instill into rude barbarians gender ideals of conduct through a creed spontaneously compounded of myth and miracle, of fear and hope and love.

"There is an epic grandeur, sullied with superstition and cruelty, in the struggle of the new religion to capture, tame, and inspire the minds of brute or decadent men -- to forge a uniting empire of faith that would again hold men together, as they had once been held by the magic of Greece or the majesty of Rome

"Institutions and beliefs are the offspring of human needs, and understanding must be in terms of these necessities.

"If art is the organiation of materials, the Roman Catholic Church is among the most imposing masterpieces of history. Through nineteen centuries, each heavy with crisis, she has held her faithful together -- following them with her ministrations to the ends of the earth -- forming their minds -- molding their morals, encouraging their fertility -- solemnizing their marriages -- consoling their bereavements -- lifting their momentary lives into eternal drama -- harvesting their gifts -- surviving every heresy and revolt -- and patiently building again every broken support of her power.

"How did this majestic institution grow?

"To missions of souls the Church brought a faith and hope that inspired and canceled death. That faith became their most precious possession, for which they would die or kill. On that rock of hope the Church was built.

"It was at first a simple association of believers, an ecclesia or gathering. Each ecclesia or church chose one or more presbyteroi - elders, priests - to lead them, and one or more readers, acolytes, subdeacons, and deacons to assist the priest.

"As the worshipers grew in number, and their affairs became more complex, the congregations chose a priest or layman in each city to be an epicopos - overseer, bishop - to co-ordinate their functioning. As the number of bishops grew, they in turn required supervision and co-ordination. In the fourth century, we hear of archbishops, metropolitans, or primates governing the bishops and the churches of a province. Over all these grades of clergy patriarchs held sway at Constantinople, Antioch, Jerusalem, Alexandria, and Rome.

"At the call of a patriarch or an emperor the bishops and archbishops convened in synods or councils. If a council representd only a province it was called provincial. If it representd only the East or the West it was called plenary. If both, it was general. If its decrees were accepted as binding upon all Christians, it was ecumenical -- i.e. applying to the oikoumene, or (total Christian) inhabited world.

"The occasionally resultant unity gave the Church its name of Catholic, or universal."

Your comments, please, about this creation of a monumental organization and the "philosophy" which underlay it.

Robby

Jan Sand
September 20, 2004 - 05:15 am
The Bible was instinctively correct in describing the creation of the world out of chaos for chaos is the necessary material for creation.

The imposed order of religion narrowed the focus of the creative minds contained within its order and directed their creation to the ends of the church. This is a good and a bad thing. It was good in that creation is frequently stimulated by restrictions. The various restrictive forms of poetry provide an armature upon which the poet can depend to support his/her ideas but it also has its bad side.

There comes a time when the possibilities of creation within a restrictive order becomes stifling and then there is a breakout and a wildly creative spurt which is strongly resisted by the established order. This occurred in the Renaissance.

Éloïse De Pelteau
September 20, 2004 - 05:33 am
THE MIDDLE AGES -- Click on the image to continue. The narratives remind me of my 7th grade textbook.

Éloïse

winsum
September 20, 2004 - 06:39 am
I like this post of jan's

Some of the so called lesser primitive cultures have produced very impressive objects and activities which have been the roots of modern creativity.

I can relate to artefacts of these "civilizations" referred to as "cultures". were not they also forms of civilization? and for me better than war and politics. somehow they make the people of the time seem more real. . . right on Jan.

robert b. iadeluca
September 20, 2004 - 06:42 am
Claire:-Regarding your question "were they not also forms of civilization," Durant answers that in the heading above with the comment which begins "Four elements..."

Robby

winsum
September 20, 2004 - 06:49 am
what a good link. I chose s my guide the peasant as it laid out the legal position of the varius people in the workforce at the time. we're familiar with knights and ladies,but the everyday person who worked the land is well described here. http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/history/middleages/prole.html . It makes it all much more real to me. . . . claire

winsum
September 20, 2004 - 06:52 am
I discovered history for the first time as an art major in my art history classes. before that it never seemed real to me and that's my approach to all of this, as if I were there and part of it. . . .

Jans post about chaos being necessary for creativity reminds me that we seem to have an ingrown sense of order, or sensing of patterns, perhaps a servival mechanism which forces us to develope means of handling our lives. necessity the motther of invention? .. . claire

winsum
September 20, 2004 - 08:51 am
as here in the remarks "Four elements constitute Civilization -- economic provision, political organization, moral traditions, and the pursuit of knowledge and the arts. "

we've been concentrating on political and moral as a package, not much on economic outside of the military and nothing on the arts. that's what I'm trying t do. . . widen the field a little make things seem more relevant to MY world as suggested in your remarks. . . . Claire

winsum
September 20, 2004 - 08:53 am
I"m having this discussion with myself today but I just thought of something about this. unlike other animals we have a concept of TIME. our past informs us, our present limits us and our future gives us choice. . . so we plan our future with the knowledge gained from the past and the strictures placed upon us in the present. . . . claire

Jan Sand
September 20, 2004 - 09:48 am
I don't know why people always feel the necessity to denegrate animals. If they had no sense of time they would never learn from experience. Animals can be trained to do remarkable things. And they can teach their young and their fellows to do survival procedures which is carried on by the group. Admittedly the range of humans is much larger but the elements are present in even rats and mice and birds and so forth. Lions raised in captivity have to be trained to survive in the wild.

Malryn (Mal)
September 20, 2004 - 11:12 am
Hold your horses, CLAIRE. Durant always has sections about art in an era, or in a civilization, in his books. We've barely opened the front cover of this one, and I'm sure there'll be plenty of art to discuss later.

Animals act on instinct. Humans have the ability to reason. Animals copulate and war indiscriminately. Humans aren't supposed to.

I see one big likeness between animals and humans, and that's territorial. Animals fight other animals that threaten their property or invade their territory; so do humans. We've seen that over and over. I don't know enough about zoology to be able to say whether animals try to amass more and more territory, but, as I think about it I'd say they do.

Isn't it the aim of most religions to push humans into rising above these animal instincts, and cultivate the reasoning and thinking ability they were born with?

Mal

Jan Sand
September 20, 2004 - 11:26 am
Even by the account in this particular history I cannot see how humans vary all that much from animal behaviour. Would an elephant on rampage destroy any larger quantity of valued property than the Hun invaders? Animals, of course, do not create the property in the first place, but insofar as destruction is concerned, even unto present day Iraq, humanity seems not much wiser. Of course, religion claims to instill higher values but I warrant that probably more wonderful things and people have been destroyed in the name of religion than in any other cause.

Malryn (Mal)
September 20, 2004 - 11:39 am
Does the compulsion to convert have anything to do with territorial instincts, i.e., expand one's territory, I wonder? If it does, then that explains a whole lot of things, including religious wars.

Mal

Jan Sand
September 20, 2004 - 11:46 am
Although the motivation to convert is obvious in many religions, the most disturbing aspect of religious belief is that the adherents are thoroughly convinced that they have absolute truth. This gives them leave to act without any compassion to those who would challenge these absolute values since, if those values give way, their world collapses into chaos. This is a much stronger motivation than mere territorial domination.

moxiect
September 20, 2004 - 12:59 pm


No matter what the circumstances the WILL to SURVIVE exceeds, religion, economics, chaos in any century.

Bubble
September 20, 2004 - 01:03 pm
Kamikaze? Self-burning bhuddist monks? Suicide bombers? death can be glorified...

Persian
September 20, 2004 - 01:10 pm
Does the compulsion to convert have anything to do with territorial instincts, i.e., expand one's territory. . .?

In the contemporary period, I wonder whether this would apply to Madonna's recent conversion to Judaism and her fascination with the study of Kaballistic history? Her recent pilgrimage to Jerusalem, prayerful visits to the tombs of reverred rabbis, and undertaking the study of the Kaballah has certainly caused anguish among the Orthodox. Could we say that her conversion (and recent behavior) are based on "territorial instincts" or just "showmanship" and its PR value?

robert b. iadeluca
September 20, 2004 - 02:39 pm
Claire:-As Mal indicated, Durant follows his own guidance. In each of the three previous volumes, he went through the economic, political, moral, and artistic aspect of one period, then through the four aspcts in the next period, etc. etc. Durant spends much time with the knowledge and art side of each culture. You will not be disapppointed. As Mal says, we have only just begun this 1000 page volume.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 20, 2004 - 03:04 pm
"This organization, whose power rested at last upon belief and prestige, required some regulation of the ecclesiastical life. In the first three centuries of Christianity, celibacy was not required of a priest. He might keep a wife whom he had married before ordination, but he must not marry after taking holy orders. No man could be ordained who had married two wives, or a widow, a divorcee, or a concubine.

"Like most societies, the Church was harassed with extremists. In reaction against the sexual license of pagan morals, some Christian enthusiasts concluded from a passage in St. Paul that any commerce between the sexes was sinful. They denounced all marriage, and trembled at the abomination of a married priest. The provincial council of Gengra (c.362) condemned these views as heretical, but the Church increasingly demanded celibacy in her priests.

"Property was being left in rising amounts to individual churches. Now and then a married priest had the bequest written in his name and transmitted it to his children. Clerical marriage sometimes led to adultery or other scandal, and lowered the respect of the people for the priest. A Roman synod of 386 advised the complete continence of the clergy. A year later Pope Siricius ordered the unfrocking of any priest who married, or continud to live with his wife.

"Jerome, Ambrose and Augustine supported this decree with their triple power. After a generation of sporadic resistance it was enforced with transient success in the West.

"The gravest problem of the Church, next to reconciling her ideas with her continuance, was to find a way of living with the state. The rise of an ecclesiastical organization side by side with the officials of the government created a strugle for power in which the accepted subjection of one to the other was the prerequisite of peace.

"In the East the Church became subordinate to the state. In the West she fought for independence, then for mastery. In either case the union of Church and state involved a profound modification of Christian ethics.

"Tertullian, Origen, and Lactantius had taught that war is always unlawful. The Church, how protected by the state, resigned herself to such wars as she deemed necessary to protect either the state or the Church. She had not in herself the means of force. But when force seemed desirable, she could appeal to the 'secular arm' to implement her will. She received from the state, and from individuals, splendid gifts of money, temples, or lands. She grew rich, and needed the state to protect her in all the rights of property. Even when the state fell she kept her wealth. The barbarian conquerors, however, heretical, seldom robbed the Church.

"The authority of the word so soon rivaled the power of the sword."

Our present-day church/state conflict is apparently not new. And it even got to the point where the state was considered the "secular arm" of the church. This left no doubt, at least in my mind, where the power lay. The force, which the Church said it did not have, evidently did exist in its power of the "word."

And this only a mere three centuries or so after the birth of Jesus.

Robby

winsum
September 20, 2004 - 03:05 pm
I think in passing you just gave me fodder for my position:

"Animals, of course, do not create the property in the first place,"an animal can be trained with food or repetitions to do many things but it's not usually the animals idea or even instinct to do the trick in the first place. the concept is that of the trainer. . . robby I was unaware of the order in which durant offered. . . I can wait. . . claire

robert b. iadeluca
September 20, 2004 - 03:13 pm
Here is some information about CLERICAL CELEBACY. This was promoted by Pope Siricius, as well as by Jerome, Ambrose, and Augustine.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 20, 2004 - 04:06 pm
Following Durant's comment that some earlier church leaders taught that "war is always unlawful," some participants may find of interest THIS ARTICLE about the morality of warfare.

Robby

winsum
September 20, 2004 - 05:47 pm
it's a good article but confused near the end. scholarship got in the way of consistency. but I liked most of it. . . . claire

Scrawler
September 20, 2004 - 06:30 pm
"To missions of souls the Church brought to faith and hope that inspired and cancelled death. That faith became their most prescious possession for which they would die or kill. On that rock of hope the Church was built."

My question is how did the Church cancel "Death?"

I understand that faith can be a person's prescious possession but if the Church was built on the teachings of Christ how could it be said that these same people would kill in the name of their faith?

winsum
September 20, 2004 - 07:31 pm
canceling death for the faithful means, I think, that they have an afterlife and the morality involved in cancelling sinners may allow for such things. .. . . claire

Justin
September 20, 2004 - 08:07 pm
Mal: In drawing a distinction between the territorial practices of animals and that of humans you suggested the aim of religion was to encourage people to use reasoning, to make rational judgements. Such is not the aim of religion. Rather the opposite is the case. People are encouraged to accept what they are given by religion and to ask no questions. If adherants are inquisitive and observe opposing constructs they are termed heretics.

Malryn (Mal)
September 20, 2004 - 08:25 pm
No, JUSTIN, I did not suggest anything; I asked a question:
"Isn't it the aim of most religions to push humans into rising above these animal
instincts, and cultivate the reasoning and thinking ability they were born with?"
You answered it. Thank you.

Mal

Jan Sand
September 20, 2004 - 08:57 pm
It is probably premature in this investigation to try to generalize but it might be worthwhile to keep in mind some of the major differences in present culture and that of the time of ancient Rome and the Middle ages. The most notable difference is that the knowledge of the whole world is now available generally. In the far past all sorts of wild stories, rumors, myths and purposeful misinformation directed the action of isolated cultures. It is ironic that misinformation still plays a large part in our present culture.

winsum
September 20, 2004 - 09:09 pm
Jan: yes the world has changed and is changing . there are many differing beliefs even today

in the acient world they were rampant

Mal who says that we must be the best that we can be.sounds like a commercial . . which one?

I think the object of most religions is to convince man that there are more powerful forces that require him to love or fear them and serve them with sacrifice and devotion. It's a way of gaining power over other humans by humans.i.e.scapegoats, blaming a given group for all evil. . .

Malryn (Mal)
September 20, 2004 - 09:22 pm
What?

I didn't say that, either. (It must be sunspots or something.)

Jan Sand
September 20, 2004 - 10:16 pm
Is this some sort of a gag to demonstrate my conjecture?

Justin
September 20, 2004 - 11:45 pm
Durant seems to say that the hierarchical organization of the Church, as it developed in these early years, is related to growth in membership. The process was probably as simple as that.

First came clusters of adherents, then came elected priests. When the priest needed help he appointed deacons to assist him. Multiple clusters of adherents, each with a priest, elected or had appointed by a secular arm, an episcopacy. Among the bishops a political power struggle ensued and the winner became an archbishop.

The archbishops of the strongest communities, Antioch, Jerusalem, Constantinople,and Rome became patriarchs. It is surprising to me that the Bishop of Rome established the papacy and not the eastern communities. They continued as patriarchs and eventually broke away.

Today,the Pope is an elected official and important theology questions are decided by him or in council. Once a decision is reached great effort is made to assign the solution to divine authority.

Jan Sand
September 21, 2004 - 12:30 am
I may be off base but I have gathered that the Pope is considered invested with divine authority on the fragile logic that God's absolute control of events assures that the correct pope is elected with the correct divine point of view. Unfortunately any heretic is also, under that logic, invested with the divine point of view.

Jan Sand
September 21, 2004 - 01:42 am
I've been thinking about the elements posited for a civilization. Economic provision, political organization, moral traditions and the pursuit of knowledge and the arts.

Insofar as I can gauge, even what are considered very primitive tribes in South America and Africa and Australia contain all of these elements plus usually a unique language. Their conceptions may differ extensively from what is currently accepted in these areas in what may now be termed world civilization, but I cannot see how they can be discounted as civilizations.

robert b. iadeluca
September 21, 2004 - 02:32 am
A danger in a discussion of this sort is to infer something from a question being asked -- that is "reading between the lines." If someone asks the question:-"Are we all barbarians" -- this does not mean to imply that the questioner believes we are. He/she might be asking the question merely for information and someone might answer "no." The questioner might be asking simply to elicit the views of others.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 21, 2004 - 02:57 am
"The most unpleasant task of ecclesiastical organization was to prevent a fragmentation of the Church through the multiplication of heresies -- i.e. doctrines contrary to conciliar definitions of the Christian creed. Once triumphant, the Church ceased to preach toleration. She looked with the same hostile eye upon individualism in belief as the state upon secession or revolt.

"Neither the Church nor the heretics thought of heresy in purely theological terms. The heresy was in many cases the ideological flag of a rebellious locality seeking liberation from the imperial power. So the Monophysites wished to free Syria and Egypt from Constantinople. The Donatists hoped to free Africa from Rome. As Church and state were now united, the rebellion was against both.

"Orthodoxy opposed nationalism, heresy defended it. The Church labored for centralization and unity, the heretics for local independence and liberty.

"Arianism, overcome within the Empire, won a peculiar victory among the barbarians. Christianity had been first carried to the Teutonic tribes by Roman captives, taken in the Bothic invasions of Asia Minor in the third century.

"We cannot interest ourelves today in the many winds of doctrine that agitated the Church in this period -- Eunomians, Anomeans, Apollinarians, Macedonians, Sabellians, Massalians, Novatians, Priscillianists. We can only mourn over the absurdities for which men have died, and will.

"Manicheism was not so much a Christian heresy as a Persian dualism of God and Satan, Good and Evil, Light and Darkness. It ghought to reconcile Christianity and Zoroastrianism, and was bitterly buffeted by both. It faced with unusual candor the problem of evil, the strange abundance of apparently unmerited suffering in a world providentially ruled, and felt compelled to postulate an Evil Spirit coeternal with the Good.

"During the fourth century Maniecheism made many converts in East and West. Several of the emperors used ruthless measuress against it. Justinian made it a capital crime. Gradually it faded out.

"While meting all these assailants the Church found herself almost overwhelmed by the Donatist heresy in Africa. Donatus, Bishop of Carthage (315), had denied the efficacy of sacraments administered by priests in a state of sin. The Church, unwilling to risk so much on the virtues of the clergy, wisely repudiated the idea. The heresy nevertheless spread rapidly in North Africa. It enlisted the enthusiasm of the poor, and the theological aberration grew into a social revolt.

"Emperors fulminated against the movement. Heavy fines and confiscations were decreed for persistence in it. The power of buying, selling, or bequeathing property was denied to the Donatists. They were driven from their churches by imperial soldiery and the churches were turned over to orthodox priests.

"Bands of revolutionaries, at once Christian and communist, took form under the name of Circumcelliones, or prowlers. They condemned poverty and slavery, canceled debts and liberated slaves, and proposed to restore the mythical equality of primitive man.

"A tradition of fierce sectarian hatred was handed down with pious persistence, and left no united opposition when (670) the Arabs came."

Very simply -- a power struggle -- the Church looked at as if it were a State. The weak against the strong. The strong holding strong. All in the name of Faith. As Durant put it:-"the absurdities for which men have died, and will."

Robby

Jan Sand
September 21, 2004 - 03:03 am
Aside from the absolute definition of Barbarians it must be conceded that there are many in executive position in both government and business in our contemporary society whose moral standards can be considered rather savage. Just as equally there are many, hopefully the overwhelming mass, who are decent compassionate people. But the dynamics of leadership may favor the less considerate in obtaining their positions. This was probably as true in Ancient Rome as it is today and it is a very sad aspect in human history

robert b. iadeluca
September 21, 2004 - 04:16 am
In this ARTICLE published a few days ago, a priest goes all the way back to the third century to discuss the organization and mission of the Church.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
September 21, 2004 - 05:08 am
In Post #478 I was responding to Claire's Post #477 when I said "What? I didn't say that, either." She said, "Mal who says that we must be the best that we can be.sounds like a commercial . . which one?"

which I read as:
"Mal, who says that we must be the best that we can be. Sounds like a commercial . . which one?"
If the first sentence is a question, my answer is, "I don't know."

Lesson learned: Don't interrupt conversations. Sorry, ROBBY.

Mal

Justin
September 21, 2004 - 12:07 pm
So many priests have become sinners in the recent past that it is a wonder the Donatists have not returned.

winsum
September 21, 2004 - 12:17 pm
onward (smiling) . . . claire

robert b. iadeluca
September 21, 2004 - 12:53 pm
"The last great heresy of this turbulent period, and the most momentous in result, was announced by Eutyches, head of a monastery near Constantinople. In Christ, said Eutyches, there were not two natures, human and divine. There was only the divine. Flavian, the patriarch of Constantinople, called a local synod which condemned this 'Monophysite' heresy, and excommunicated Eutyches.

"The monk appealed to the bishops of Alexandria and Rome. Dioscoras, who had succeeded Cyril, persuaded the Emperor Theodosius to call another council at Ephesus (449). Religion was subordinated to politics. The Alexandrian see continued its war upon the see of Constantinople.

"Eutyches was exonerated, and Flavian was assailed with such oratorical violence that he died. The council issued anathemas against any man who should hold that there were two natures in Christ. Pope Leo I had not attended the council, but had sent it several letters ('Leo's tome') supporting Flavian.

"Shocked by the report of his delegates, Leo branded the council as the 'Robber Synod' and refused to recognize its decrees. A later council, at Chalcedon in 451, acclaimed Leo's letters, condemned Eutyches, and reaffirmed the double nature of Christ. But the twenty-eighth canon of this council affired the equal authority of the bishop of Constantinople with that of Rome. Leo, who had fought for the supremacy of his office as indispensable to the unity and authority of the Church, rejected this canon.

A long struggle began between the rival sees."

Am I getting this correct? Earlier squabbles were as to whether Christ was just man or both God and man. Now a new element was entered - that Christ is God.

While this is going on, Flavian is "talked to death."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 21, 2004 - 01:08 pm
This is an excellent summary of what we have been examining so far. Very concise. Taken from "Eastern Fathers of the Fourth Century" -- not from Durant.

"With the beginning of the fourth century a new epoch opened in the life of the Church. Caesar, the "equal of the apostles," was baptized and in his person the empire accepted Christianity. The Church came out of hiding and offered its solace to the dissatisfied classical world, a world filled with anxieties, doubts, and temptations.

"This world brought with it both a great longing, which the Church had to satisfy, and a great pride, which the Church had to subdue. The classical world was reborn and be came part of the Church but only after a period of confusion and struggle. A spiritual excitement gripped not just ecclesiastical circles but all of society, from the top to the bottom. The calculations of rulers and politicians, personal ambitions, and tribal dissensions all found their way into the religious upheaval.



"This time of great and victorious triumph was also a time of trial and sorrow for the Church. During this epoch Orthodox believers frequently had to make their way in bonds and fetters, scorned and persecuted, and often reached the end of their path by accepting the crown of martyrdom. The lives of Athanasius and Chrysostom are typical.



"It was too early to speak of a definite victory, for the world still remained "outside" the Church, and paganism continued to flourish immediately beyond the Church's confines. Pagan temples were still open and pagan teachers were still arguing against Christianity. Culture and domestic life were filled with survivals of heathenism and remained pagan.

"It is not surprising that the monastic movement and the attraction of flight to the desert were so strong. These were motivated by more than a desire for seclusion and solitude. The life of a Christian in that world was truly difficult.



"The restoration of paganism under Julian cannot be considered fortuitous. On the contrary, it clearly demonstrates that the old world had not yet died. Pagan culture experienced a revival in the fourth and even in the fifth centuries, which culminated in lamblichus and the Athenian school of Neoplatonism.

"The quarrel about the Altar of Victory during the reign of Gratian shows that the same thing was happening in the West. During the collision between the two worlds of Hellenism and Christianity the Church never rejected classical culture but the Hellenes refused to accept the Church. A similar situation had existed earlier during the era of the Gnostic school of Plotinus and Porphyry, when Porphyry had resolutely opposed Christianity. (We know of his objections from the refutations of Macarius of Magnesia).

"Now the resistance became even stronger. The significance of this struggle is not in the external or political events of the period. The internal struggle was even more painful and more tragic because every Hellene had to experience and overcome this division within himself. Some became reconciled too early. Synesius of Ptolemais (also known as Synesius of Cyrene) is typical in this respect, for, although he was made a bishop, he remained a Neoplatonist and maintained his faith in dreams and divination.

"The spiritual regeneration of classical society began in the fourth century when the majority of men were still living in a spiritual environment made up of two distinct cultures. The spiritual temperament of classical man was transformed very slowly and this process was not completed until much later when a new Byzantine culture was born. The fourth century is significant as a time of transition. It was the end of a previous age, not the beginning of a new period.



"The whole of the fourth century was an era of continuous theological debate, which primarily centered around the Church's struggle against Arianism. The Arian movement was not homogeneous and it is necessary to distinguish the problem of the origin of Arius' teaching from the reasons for the positive response which his theology drew from different sides.

"There is good cause for connecting Arius with Lucian of Antioch and even with Paul of Samosata. Alexander of Alexandria pointed to this from the very beginning: "(His ideas were) were fermented by the impious Lucian." This does not mean that Arius simply borrowed his teaching from Lucian. There is no foundation for denying Arius' independence as a theologian."

Malryn (Mal)
September 21, 2004 - 01:43 pm
Picture: Nestorius and Eutyches

Malryn (Mal)
September 21, 2004 - 01:50 pm
Picture of a high relief by Algardi of Pope Leo, Attila and the huns

robert b. iadeluca
September 21, 2004 - 05:23 pm
"To perfect the confusion, the majority of Christians in Syria and Egypt refused to accept the doctrines of two natures in the one person of Christ. The monks of Syria continued to teach the Monophysite heresy, and when an orthodox bishop was appointed to the see of Alexandria, he was torn to pieces in his church on Good Friday.

"Thereafter Monophysitism became the national religion of Christian Egypt and Abyssinia, and by the sixth century predominated in western Syria and Armenia, while Nestorianism grew in Mesopotamia and eastern Syria.

"The success of the religious rebellion strengthened political revolt. When the conquering Arabs, in the seventh century, poured into Egypt and the Near East, half the population welcomed them as liberators from the theological, political, and financial tyranny of the Byzantine capital."

In a Christian-like way, the congregation tore the bishop to pieces on Good Friday.

Robby

JoanK
September 21, 2004 - 06:20 pm
""Orthodoxy opposed nationalism, heresy defended it. The Church labored for centralization and unity, the heretics for local independence and liberty."

This is very interesting. We live in a time when many groups have fought for a national identity, and many new independent states have been formed as a consequence. Sometimes at least these struggles have had a basis in religeous differences (Pakistan and India) sometimes not (Justin, correct me if I'm wrong.) but the idea of nationalism is firmly entrenched in our world. Perhaps in Roman times it was necessary to find or create a religeous difference to justify nationalistic movements.

robert b. iadeluca
September 21, 2004 - 06:51 pm
Joan brings up the question of religion vs nationalism. In this ARTICLE ABSTRACT the author states that "the stronger the religious influnce on the national movement, the greater the likelihood that discrimination and human rights violations will occur." One would think that it would be the opposite.

Robby

Jan Sand
September 22, 2004 - 01:03 am
The philosophical foundations of religious faith is based upon the absolute belief in the truth of the conceptions involved. Any attempt to shake that faith is an assault on the foundation and would naturally evoke an aggressive and frequently a violent reaction. Although most religions proclaim compassion to doubters the evidence is overwhelmingly to the contrary if there is any possibility that the doubts would be taken seriously.

Bubble
September 22, 2004 - 01:11 am
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time and the government when it deserves it.
-Mark Twain, author and humorist (1835-1910)



Does religion have anything to do with patriotism, or vice versa? (Genuine question!)

robert b. iadeluca
September 22, 2004 - 03:03 am
Durant will now spend some times helping us to examine the Christian West. Later he will address the Christian East.

"The bishops of Rome, in the fourth century, did not show the Church at her best. Sylvester (314-35) earned the credit for converting Constantine. Pious belief represented him as receiving from the Emperor in the 'Donation of Constantine' nearly all of western Europe. But he did not behave as if he owned half the white man's world.

"Julius I (337-52) strongly affirmed the supreme authority of the Roman see, but Liberius (352-66) submitted, through weakness or age, to the Arian dictates of Constantius. Upon his death Damasus and Ursinus contested the papacy. Rival mobs supported them in the most vigorous tradition of Roman democracy. In one day and in one church 137 persons were killed in the dispute.

"Praetextatus, then pagan prefect of Rome, banished Ursinus, and Damasus ruled for eighteen years with pleasure and skill. He was an archaeologist and adorrned the tombs of the Roman martyrs with beautiful inscriptions. He was also, said the irreverent, an auriscalpius matronarum, a scratcher of ladies' ears -- i.e. an expert in wheedling gifts for the Church from the rich matrons of rome.

"Leo I, surnamed the Great, held the throne of Peter through a generation of crisis (440-61) and by courage and statesmanship raised the Apostolic See to new heights of power and dignity. When Hilary of Poitiers refused to accept his decision in a dispute with another Gallic bishop, Leo sent him peremptory orders. The Emperor Valentinian III seconded these with an epoch-making edict imperially confirming the authority of the Roman bishop over all Christian churches.

"The bishops of the West generally acknowledged -- those of the East resisted -- this supremacy. The patriarchs of Constantinople, Antioch, Jerusalem, and Alexandria claimed equal authority with the Roman See. The furious controversies of the Eastern Church proceeded with scant obeisance to the bishop of Rome.

"Difficulties of communication and travel combined with diversity of languge to alienate the Western from the Eastern Church. In the West, however, the popes exercised a growing leadership even in secular affairs. They were subject in nonreligious matters to the Roman state and prefect and until seventh century they sought the confirmation of their election from the emperor. But the distance of the Eastern and the weakness of the Western rulers left the popes pre-eminent in Rome. When, in the face of invasion, both Senate and emperor fled, and civil government collapsed, while the popes stood unawed at their posts, their prestige rapidly rose.

"The conversion of the Western barbarians immensely extended the authority and influence of the Roman see."

Two separate seats of power growing in their own way while simultaneously ignoring each other. Oh, East is East and West is West and . . . ?

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
September 22, 2004 - 03:44 am
Bubble, religion and patriotism are two emotional sentiments that feed on each other in my opinion. If we intellectualize this, it is natural that passionate feelings are aroused when faced with choosing sides. But as most humans are dominated by emotions rather than intellect, war and violence results.

"Difficulties of communication and travel combined with diversity of language". To bring this forward to this day, the proliferation of the English language in the world should be of help in relieving tension but apparently it does not, as emotions dominate the scene.

Eloïse

Malryn (Mal)
September 22, 2004 - 04:53 am
My computer dictionary defines the word, "patriotism", as "love and devotion for one's country." What does that have to do with religion?

In my mind, it has nothing to do with religion, or shouldn't. They are two distinctly separate things, aren't they?

This is not the first time in our discussion of Durant's books that we've seen this. As early as the Egyptian civilization priests tried to play a major part in government, and perhaps before then. My memory fails me on that, and I can't seem to locate Our Oriental Heritage to check civilizations prior to Egypt.

Invariably, when priests representing a religion gained political power there were problems for that nation, weren't there? Don't we try to avoid those problems by keeping religion and the governing of the state separate in the United States?

Theocracies scare me. It seems as if God becomes a weapon when religion rules a civilization. To me, the "God is on our side" idea is a dangerous one.

When was Latin declared the language of the early Catholic (Christian) Church? Wasn't that a unifying factor between East and West?

Mal

Rich7
September 22, 2004 - 07:33 am
The break up of the Roman empire, and the fragmenting of the Christian Church seemed to be occuring in parallel, both in time and geography.

Reading the book and Robby's postings of excerpts, I frankly can't keep track of all the Christian factions that are popping up on the corpse of the old empire. Surprising is the cruel violence that each faction is eager to impose on those who don't believe exactly as they do.

The world is slipping into darkness, and the only light is coming from the pyres of burning "heretics."

Rich

Jan Sand
September 22, 2004 - 09:35 am
It was my understanding that nations, as such are a relatively modern social invention. Many of the nations of Europe did not exist as such in the early part of the nineteenth century. Although Rome extended citizenship to many of the people in the conquered territories I wonder just what that implied insofar as to the strength of loyalty to the central government.

During the Middle Ages many of the lesser nobles within each of the King's domains had their own feifdoms and I have the feeling that loyalty was more to the immediate area of the individual rather than to the nation as a whole

I think it was only under Napoleon that the citizen soldier came into his own with loyalty to the nation as such.

Justin
September 22, 2004 - 02:07 pm
Nationalism is not a characteristic of this period of Roman decline. Loyalty is possible but not nationalism. That comes later. We are now slowly drifting into feudalism and flirting with anarchy and theocracy. When an emperor and his court flees Rome in the face of invasion he leaves a vacuum that in one case was filled by Leo, the Pope. Until the seventh century the Roman Popes looked to the emperor to confirm their role as Bishop of Rome. After that period of acquiesence the Popes took control and the fight was on.

Justin
September 22, 2004 - 02:23 pm
Religion and patriotism should be far apart but in reality they are not. The blending the these two seemingly separate ideas is a characteristic of the current American government. During the Kennedy Administration the government strove to demonstrate that religion and patriotism were clearly separate concepts and that the Chief could keep them that way but today the two are well blended and many Americans think it is a good idea.

The Fathers, Franklin, Jefferson, Madison, Paine and other conceivers of the Republic would strongly object were they alive to do so. They left the Republic in our hands and we must protect it from the priests and their followers.

Jan Sand
September 22, 2004 - 02:34 pm
I recently heard an analysis on the radio about church and state. The discussion pointed out that where religious groups were in the minority they supported the separation but when a religious group reached majority status it tended to infiltrate government.

Rich7
September 22, 2004 - 02:53 pm
It's all about power. Who gets to be in control.

Does anyone really think that the secterian violence between Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland is really motivated by theological differences? It's about who gets to be in charge.

The much feared and anticipated civil war in Iraq between Sunni and Shi'a will be about who ends up in control when it's over. The poor guys in the trenches for both sides will be told that they are fighting for a theological principle, and they will probably believe it, but it's really about temporal power.

Rich

robert b. iadeluca
September 22, 2004 - 05:39 pm
"As rich and aristocratic families abandoned paganism for Christianity, the Roman Church participated more and more in the wealth that came to the Western capital, and Ammianus was surprised to find that the bishop of Rome lived like a prince in the Lateran Palace, and moved through the city with the pomp of an emperor. Splendid churches now (400) adorned the city.

"A brilliant society took form, in which elegant prelates mingled happily with ornate women, and helped them to make their wills.

"While the Christian populace joined the surviving pagans at the theater, the races, and the games, a minority of Christians strove to live a life in harmony with the Gospels. Athanasius had brought to Rome two Egyptian monks. He had written a life of Anthony, and Rufinus had published for the West a history of monasticism in the East.

"Pious minds were influenced by the reported holiness of Anthony, Schnoudi, and Pachomius. Monasteries were established in Rome by Sixtus III (432-440) and Leo I. Several families, while still living in their homes, acceptd the monastic rule of chastity and poverty.

"Roman ladies of wealth, like Marcella, Paula, and three generations of the Melanias, gave most of their funds to charity, founded hospitals and convents, made pilgrimages to the monks of the East, and maintained so ascetic a regimen that some of them died of self-denbial.

"Pagan circles in Rome complained that this kind of Christianity was hostile to family life, the institution of marriage, and the vigor of the state. Polemics fell heavily upon the head of the leading advocate of asceticism -- one of the greatest scholars and most brilliant writers ever produced by the Christian Church.

"St. Jerome was born about 340 at Strido, ner Aquileia, probably of Dalmatian stock, and was promisingly named Eusebius Hieronymus Sophronius -- 'the reverend, holy-named sage.' He received a good education at Trier and Rome, learned the Latin classics well, and loved them, he thought, to the point of sin.

"Nevertheless, he was a positive and passionate Christian. He joined with Rufinus and other friends to found an ascetic brotherhood in Aquileia, and preached such counsels of perfection that his bishop reproved him for undue impatience with the natural frailties of man. He replied by calling the bishop ignorant, brutal, wicked, well matched with the worldly flock that he led, the unskllful pilot of a crazy bark.

"Leaving Aquileia to its sins, Jerome and some fellow devotees went to the Near East and entered a monastery in the Chalcis desert near Antioch (374). The unhealthy climate was too much for them. Two died, and Jerome himself was for a time on the verge of death. Undeterred, he left the monastery to live as an anchorite in a desert heritage, with occasional relapses into Virgil and Cicero. He had brought his library with him, and could not quite turn away from verse and prose whose beauty lured him like some girlish loveliness.

"In 379 he returned to Antioch, and was ordained a priest. In 382 we find him in Rome as secretary to Pope Damasus, and commissioned by him to make an improved Latin translation of the New Testament. He continued to wear the brown robe and the tunic of an anchorite, and lived an ascetic life amid a luxurious papal court.

"The pious Marcella and Paula received him into their aristocartic homes as their spiritual adviser, and his pagan critics thought he enjoyed the company of women more than became so passionate a praiser of celibacy and virginity."

How hard it is to stick to the line. Some folks thought he should not enjoy the company of women. Others felt that this spiritual person was acting too spiritual. It's so hard to please others!

Robby

winsum
September 22, 2004 - 06:51 pm
whatever he did seemed to work he had it both ways, garb and lifestyle

Justin
September 22, 2004 - 09:26 pm
Let us not passover Jerome too lightly or too quickly. He is responsible for the selection of books we see in the New Testament. It is Jerome's choices that we examine in that holy book and not the selections of a divinity. Jerome chose to leave out the books we have recently uncovered in the desert at the Dead sea site. The books of Thomas and those of the Gnostics were ignored because they did not support the view of the strong at that time.

Justin
September 22, 2004 - 09:36 pm
All these guys liked women as play things but hypocritically advocated the Paulean principle of celibacy. Prosper Merimee wrote a tale about Thais and an anchorite. She was the leading prostitute of her time-a truly beautiful woman who lived in luxury. The anchorite convinced her that in order to be saved she must go with him to live in the desert. When he finished with her she was a disgusting hag with no hope in life. The anchorite had consumed her. The moral: don't go to the desert with anchorites.

Jan Sand
September 22, 2004 - 09:43 pm
Although patriarchial societies seem to be the rule in most human societies, probably because the creation and raising of children is universally assigned to women and requires the bulk of their capabilities, the Christian and Moslem societies have not done much to alleviate women's tasks in the world and, in the final analysis, have been detrimental to giving women an equal share of the benefits of society.

Perhaps the concept of original sin which is, explicitly, sexual union, as a violation of God's precepts a basic sin which endowed mankind with the punishment of death, has been the burden which is given women in society. Somehow men seem to have been accorded innocence in this religious error - which strikes me as grossly unfair and peculiar.

In the last analysis, this dark and twisted concept is not only a gross violation of sensible biology but also, it seems to me, a basic crime against humanity.

As a social tool it was probably as useful as primogeniture in not slicing up property legacies, although the Jewish religion places religious legitimacy through female descent.

Justin
September 22, 2004 - 10:06 pm
We will be dealing with heresy for some time to come in the history of the Church. Every battle with a heresy forced the Church to define itself in a new way- a way that differed from the way of the heresey but also in a way that differed from the Churches previous position. It was the heresies that forced the Church to define itself- to say we are this and not that.

In the beginning Christians appeared to bear love for one another. However, the Christians of the fifth century displayed loathing and intolerance toward their associates whose formula for defining the indefinable differed from their own. The change in attitude had much to do with very human interests in power rather than in theology.

Justin
September 22, 2004 - 10:17 pm
I may be mistaken, but I think the concept of original sin ie; the sin of Adam and Eve, is passed on equally to both genders as well as others. The sacrament of baptism absolves the children of this misbegotten guilt. It is one of the devices the clergy uses to insure it's livelihood. The sacraments have that benefit. The faithful can not marry, be absolved from sin, die, or be buried without the assistance of a priest.

Jan Sand
September 22, 2004 - 11:06 pm
Of course, since we all die, we all carry the curse, but, if the story has any weight, it was Eve who flaunted the apple and persuaded Adam to take a bite.

It is also interesting that in rigid Moslem cultures it is men who must be protected from the sight of female anatomy - the apple, so to speak. Men, therefore, are permitted to remain totally infantile in being completely incapable of restraining themselves from succumbing to even the slightest temptation.

Bubble
September 23, 2004 - 02:15 am
http://www.sacred-texts.com/index.htm

robert b. iadeluca
September 23, 2004 - 04:26 am
Interesting interchange. I know there are many who are lurking and none of us here are experts. Please share your thoughts as we go along.

"Jerome adds to the moralist's bias the exaggerations of the literary artist molding a period, and of a lawyer inflating a brief. His satires recvall those Juvenal, or of our own time. It is pleasant to know that women have alwayws been as charming as they are today. Like Juvenal, Jerome denounces impartially, fearlessly, and ecumenically.

"He is shocked to find concubinage even among Christians, and more shocked to find it covered by the pretense of practicing chastity the hard way. He says:-

'From what source has this plague of dearly beloved sisters found its way into the church? Whence come these unwedded wives? These novel concubines, these one-man harlots? They live in the same house with their male friends. They occupy the same room, often the same bed. Yet they call us suspicious if we think that anything is wrong.'

"He attacks the Roman clergy whose support might have raised him to the papacy. He ridicules the curled and scented ecclesiastics who frequent fashionable society, and the legacy-hunting priest who rises before dawn to visit women before they have gotten out of bed.

"He condemns the marriage of priests and the sexual digressions, and argues powerfully for clerical celebacy. Only monks, he thinks, are true Christians, free from property, lust, and pride.

"With an eloquence that would have enlisted Casanova, Jerome calls upon men to give up all and follow Christ, asks the Christian matrons to dedicate their first-born to the Lord as offerings due under the Law, and advises his lady friends, if they cannot enter a convent, at least to live as virgins in their homes.

"He comes close to rating marriage as sin.

'I praise marriage, but because it produces me virgins.'

"He proposes to 'cut down by the ax of virginity the wood of marriage' and exalts John the celibate apostle over Peter, who had a wife. His most interesting letter (384) is to a girl, Eustochium, on the pleasurs of virginity. He is not against marriage, but those who avoid it escape from Sodom, and painful pregnancies, and bawling infants, and household cares, and the tortures of jealousy.

"He admits that the path of purity is also hard, and that eternal vigilance is the price of virginity.

"The publication of this letter, Jerome tells us, 'was greeted with showers of stones.' Perhaps some readers sensed a morbid prurience in these strange counsels in a man apparently not yet free fromn the heat of desire. When, a few months later (384), the young ascetic Blesilla died, many blamed the austerities that had been taught her by Jerome. Some pagans proposed to throw him into the Tiber with all the monks of Rome. Unrepentant, he addressed to the hysterically mournful mother a letter of consolation and reproof.

"In the same year, Pope Damasus passed away, and his successor did not renew Jerome's appointment as papal secretary. In 385 he left Rome forever, taking with him Blesilla's mother Paula, and Eustochium her sister. At Bethlehem he bilt a monastery of which he became head, a convent over which first Paula and then Eustochium presided, a church for the common worship of the monks and nuns, and a hospice for the pilgrims to the Holy Land."

Whether or not we agree with the beliefs of Jerome, could we at least say that he was not hypocritical? He had a belief and he stuck to it.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 23, 2004 - 05:31 am
This is an ARTICLE which obviously has its own agenda (always consider the source of a link) but nevertheless, it is thought-provoking.

Robby

Jan Sand
September 23, 2004 - 05:43 am
It is not a question of hypocricy but rather of outrageous blindness to the fact that universal celibacy would result in the death of the human race. I hesitate to label this as stupidity as as that would place it somewhere on a scale of intelligence and this seems to have fallen off the nether end.

robert b. iadeluca
September 23, 2004 - 05:51 am
If I understood Durant's words correctly, Jerome was complaining that so-called Christians were not following the words of Christ in various matters in addition to sexual.

Robby

winsum
September 23, 2004 - 11:56 am
before I forget. Jan so eve is the evil one. what about that snake?

Jan Sand
September 23, 2004 - 01:39 pm
People are usually unfriendly to snakes who seem to have suffered a great deal from legends. They're no worse than spiders, when you come right down to it.

Justin
September 23, 2004 - 02:03 pm
Jerome was not well informed about the words of Jesus. He did say, to his deciples," give up everything and follow me". But he did not advocate celibacy. The Magdellan was a great favorite and Martha and her sister were quite jealous of one another when Jesus seemed to prefer one over the other. It was Saul called Paul who disliked women and who advocated celibacy.

Jerome, like so many others, interpret what they read in the New Testament as the word of God and since the Council at Nicea decided that Jesus is God, then what Paul said, or John said etc is what God (Jesus) said. I know that's a circumlocution but that's what we are dealing with here.

Jan Sand
September 23, 2004 - 02:45 pm
But from what I heard it was not only the denial of sexual relationships that was a basic tenet of Christianity, it was the denial of the body entirely and all bodily pleasures. The elevation of the "spirit" (whatever that may be) was the prime concern of the Christian belief and whatever happened on Earth was of small consequence in consideration of the preservation of the soul.

This probably originated as a promise that all the suffering that the deprived believers endured would end with a wonderful afterlife, and I have heard that the popularity of Christianity originated amongst the most deprived peoples before it spread to the other classes.

robert b. iadeluca
September 23, 2004 - 05:56 pm
"Jerome made his own cell in a cave, gathered his books and papers there, gave himself up to study, composition, and administration, and lived there the remaining thirty-four years of his life.

"He quarreled at pen's point with Chrysostom, Ambrose, Pelagius, and Augustine. He wrote with dogmatic force half a hundred works on questions of casuistry and Biblical interpreteation, and his writings were eagerly read even by his enemies.

"He opened a school in Bethlehem, where he humbly and freely taught children a variety of subjects, including Latin and Greek. Now a confirmed saint, he felt that he could read again the classic authors whom he had forsworn in his youth.

"He resumed the study of Hebrew, which he had begun in his first sojourn in the East. In eighteen years of patient scholarship he achieved that magnificent and sonorous translation of the Bible into Latin which is known to us as the Vulgate, and remains as the greatest and most influential literary accomplishment of the fourth century.

"There were errors in the translation as in any work so vast, and some 'barbarisms' of common speech which offended the purists. Its Latin formed the language of theology and letters through out the Middle Ages, poured Hebraic emotion and imagery into Latin molds, and gave to literature a thousand noble phrases of compact eloquence and force.

"The Latin world became acquainted with the Bible as never before.

"Jerome was a saint only in the sense that he lived an ascetic life devoted to the Church. He was hardly a saint in character or speech. It is sad to find in so great a man so many violent outbursts of hatred, misrepresentation, and controversial ferocity.

"He calls John, Patriarch of Jerusalem, a Judas, a Satan, for whom hell can never provide adequate punishment. He describss the majestic Ambrose as 'a deformed crow.' To make trouble for his old friend Rufinus he pursues the dead Origen with such heresy-hunting fury as to force the condemnation of Origen by Pope Anastasius (400).

"We might rather have pardoned some sins of the flesh than these ascerbities of the soul!

"His critics punished him without delay. When he taught the Greek and Latin classics they denounced him as a pagan. When he studied Hebrew with a Jew they accused him of being a convert to Judaism. When he dedicated his works to women they described his motives as financial or worse.

"His old age was not happy. Barbarians came down into the Near East and overran Syria and Palestine (395). He concluded sadly:-'The Roman world is falling.' While he lived, his beloved Paula, Marcella, and Eustochium died. Almost voiceless and fleshless with austerities, and bent with age, he toiled day after day on work after work. He was writing a commentary on Jeremiah when death came.

"He was a great, rather than a good man. A satirist as piercing as Juvenal -- a letter writer as eloquent as Seneca -- an heroic laborer in scholarship and theology."

Robby

winsum
September 23, 2004 - 07:21 pm
genius can be a mixed blessing,. usually at odds with the rest of community. . . a curse

JoanK
September 23, 2004 - 07:26 pm
Interesting how many of these saints base their teachings on opposition to sex. Is this true in other religions as well? Wonder what the connection is between opposition (dislike?) of sex and religiosity?

winsum
September 23, 2004 - 07:28 pm
opposition to sex maybe because the pagans glorified it...ever seen Indian from inda sculpture?

Jan Sand
September 23, 2004 - 09:01 pm
It is interesting that the affront that sex makes to current society which Christianity has establishd is still so strong. The exposure of Janet Jackson's breast which many religious people claim would warp the minds of young children to the point of psychosis is contrary to the most elemental common sense since breast feeding is the biological point of mammal physiology. Along with much good social sense the tenets of Christianity carry with them so much idiotic nonsense that it makes one desperate as to the intellectual capability of the species.

Malryn (Mal)
September 23, 2004 - 09:38 pm
In Volume 1 of Durant's Story of Civilization, "Our Oriental Heritage", there is a long section about Ancient India. Links to pictures of Indian architecture which contain bas reliefs or high reliefs of a sexual nature, and Indian sculpture and other artwork, were posted here during that discussion. They can be accessed by searching through the Books and Literature Archives of the Story of Civilization discussions.



Though there are some people here who are not affiliated with any religion, or members of religions which are not Christianity, there are also participants and lurkers who are Christians. For that reason, it's my opinion that there are diplomatic ways to express individual opinions that will not offend people of that faith.

Mal

Jan Sand
September 23, 2004 - 10:00 pm
If questioning the logic of a belief is offensive, then we are guilty of suppressing our intellectual capabilities which is also offensive. I guess a choice has to be made.

JoanK
September 23, 2004 - 10:05 pm
We are attempting something which is very difficult here. As I said before, we are trying to have a discussion of religion with people of various beliefs where we walk a line between not being able to say what we think and respecting each other's beliefs. This requires a very high degree of respect for other people's feelings, and, in fact, a very high degree of respect for all of the people in this discussion, including those who disagree with me on very fundamental issues. We all fail in this at times, but it is important to the success of this discussion that we continue to try constantly.

JAN: I agree with many (not all) of your views. But I grew up with wonderful, brilliant parents who disagreed with me on every point of philosophy or politics that was important to me. I learned early that wonderful brilliant people can disagree on almost every important issue. The only belief that I really, really oppose is a lack of respect and honoring of the worth of other human beings. Robby and the other members of this forum have steadfastly stood for that principle, and I hope that you will join us.

Fifi le Beau
September 23, 2004 - 10:25 pm
I have often wondered why man continued to worship the many gods we have read about when disaster befell them at every turn. No matter how much sacrifice they made to their god, it never seemed to be enough.

The human bodies splayed on the altar, the millions of animals gutted, the food, flowers, money, gold, silver, the endless flame of candle, incense, tar and torch. The offerings from stones to humans in a never ending cycle of need to alter their destiny which led to disappointment at every turn.

Christianity seems to present a different kind of dilemma for their god. According to the writings of the followers who shaped the church, they seem to be most disappointed in the failure of their god to create a human being to their specifications.

They intensely dislike the way humans have been programmed from birth to create new life. Since their god did the programming when he made the first human, his use of hormones seems to mean he erred in their eyes. They publicly blame man, who cannot alter his physical and chemical make up, so they rail against their God's creation in the writings that influence the church and become decree and dogma.

If God is disappointed with man, man seems to be equally disappointed with God. They claim the words from their writings were from God, and yet they are forever changing the text. What is sacred in one century, becomes heresy in the next.

Jesus the Jew that we met in Caesar and Christ, seems alien to the new creation and monolith that Rome is building in his name. He is becoming more Roman and less Jewish with every writer of influence within the new church.

Fifi

winsum
September 23, 2004 - 10:29 pm
it occurred to me reading the first part of your post that the facts of life seemed to prove that sacrifice of animals, plants people did not have the desired affect, that maybe they were afraid that if they did not ssacrifice, there would be worse experience thrust upon them. Thus making sacrifice was "insurance" that the gods would accept and not be angry. . . Claire

Justin
September 23, 2004 - 10:59 pm
Robby holds us to a strict code of conduct but within the parameters he has set forth it is possible to express every contrary view. I intend to continue to comment upon the character, validity, and consequences of all the religions we encounter.

No one in this group expects to be handled with kid gloves because they advocate a particular religion nor do they expect their particular brand of belief to be treated with a less than critical eye. If lurkers are offended by high criticism they can stop lurking. If participants are offended by high criticism they can offer a defense of their position. No participant should hold back in deference to others positions. This is essentially a no-holds examination of history. However, politeness and courtesy should guide our every comment.

We tend to look upon religious ideas and practices as one looks upon political or ecnonmic ideas. So long as one expresses views without making fun of or assessing another's intellectual capacity because others hold views different from our own, we are on safe ground. Some words such as "superstition" are anathema but even that word may be acceptable at times if it is fully justifiable.

winsum
September 23, 2004 - 11:07 pm
it's nice to have everything spelled out so neatly but I still hesitate to express my own opinion of religion here because I've be chastised fairly frequently when I even approached it. It's hard to walk that fine line. . .we get one chance to say what our religious beliefs are and then are expected not to voice an opinion related to that. ss an unbeliever I've often wanted to sound off on the ideas of the ancients not being so different from what we are seeing now here in the usa as well as the near east, but robby said no . . . this is not the purpose here. we are looking at HISTORY. . .it's a little confusing. . . . claire

Jan Sand
September 23, 2004 - 11:25 pm
It seems that expressing a curiosity about the intellectual justification for the prejudices of currently held religious beliefs is taken as being offensive. Obviously, for the preservation of decorum in discussions within this group certain standards must be maintained. But intelligence and faith frequently come into conflict and I must admit a personal prejudice in favor of logic.

Undoubtedly there is much good accomplished in the activities of some religious groups and, equally, at times, great evils and foolishnesses. I cannot but view all these actions with as even an eye as I can manage. My intellectual mechanisms grind out answers to which I must accede.

To appropriate a comment made by Gandhi about civilization and the British Empire, concerning the compassion and humanity of Christianity I would say that it is a good idea.

Malryn (Mal)
September 24, 2004 - 01:31 am
"It seems that expressing a curiosity about the intellectual justification for the prejudices of currently held religious beliefs is taken as being offensive."
No, it's not that at all. It's when words like "idiotic nonsense" are applied to those religious beliefs that what we say becomes offensive. We must watch what we say and how we say it, that's all.

Mal

Jan Sand
September 24, 2004 - 01:42 am
My statement was:

Along with much good social sense the tenets of Christianity carry with them so much idiotic nonsense that it makes one desperate as to the intellectual capability of the species.

I find nothing offensive in that unless the objector is willing to say that whatever beliefs were included in Christianity must be accepted as totally valid under any system of values. My system of values finds much of the body of Christian beliefs without either good sense nor pragmatic value. I do not expect everybody to agree with me and I do not feel constrained to mute my point of view.

JoanK
September 24, 2004 - 01:56 am
In addition to implicitly insulting anyone who disagrees with it, the problem with phrases like "idiotic nonsense" is that they don't allow for rational discussion. What discussion could be built on that? "Is not!!", Is too!!" is about all one could say. So, such a phrase, while allowing the a to vent, actually stifles discussion.

Jan Sand
September 24, 2004 - 02:21 am
It seems to me that the phrase would stimulate somebody to provide justification for the assaulted belief. There are many religious assertions, including the assumption of a God, which lie beyond capabilities of proof one way or the other. Others can, I think, be discussed, and if I feel that some beliefs lay outside of common sense they should be so labeled.

robert b. iadeluca
September 24, 2004 - 02:50 am
As Claire says:-"It's hard to walk a fine line." Yes, it is. But we are all doing it and amazingly well. The very difficulty of the topic of this discussion group is paradoxically what makes it so successful. Anytime any one of us wishes, we can leave and switch over to one of the forums where we can discuss what we had for breakfast or the weather predictions. No difficulty there -- no fine line there -- but no stimulating conversation or thought-provoking ideas either.

We will do well so long as we keep in mind that famous comment which came down to us from one of the former Supreme Court Justices (Frankfurter?) -- "Freedom ends at the point of the other person's nose." So long as we constantly keep in mind each other's noses, we will do fine.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 24, 2004 - 03:15 am
Durant continues:-

"Jerome and Augustine were only the greatest pair in a remarkable age. Among her 'Fathers' the early medieval Church distinguished eight as 'Doctors of the Church.' In the East Arthanasius, Basil, Gregory, Nazianzen, John Chrysostom, and John of Damascus. In the West Ambrose, Jerome, Augustine, and Gregory the Great.

"The career of Ambrose (340?-398) illustrates the power of Christianity to draw into its service first rate men who, a generation earlier, would have served the state. Born at Trier, son of the prefect of Gaul, he was by every precedent destined to a political career, and we are not surprised to hear of him next as provincial governor of northern Italy. Residing at Milan, he was in close touch with the emperor of the West, who found in him the old Roman qualities of solid judgment, executive ability, and quiet courage.

"Learning that rival factions were gathering at the cathedral to choose a bishop, he hurried to the scene, and by his presence and his words quelled an incipient disturbance. When the factions could not agree on a candidate, someone suggested Ambrose. His name brought the people to an enthusiastic unanimity. The governor, protesting and still unbaptized, was hurriedly christened, ordained to the diaconate, then to the priesthood, then to the episcopacy, all in one week (374).

"He filled his new office with the dignity and mastery of a statesman. He abandoned the trappings of political position, and lived in exemplary simplicity. He gave his money and property to the poor and sold the consecrated plate of his church to ransom captives of war.

"He was a theologian who powerfully defended the Nicene Creed -- an orator whose sermons helped to convert Augustine -- a poet who composed some of the Church's earliest and noblest hymns -- a judge whose learning and integrity shamed the corruption of secular courts -- a diplomat entrusted with difficult missions by both Church and state -- a good disciplinarian who upheld but overshadowed the pope -- an ecclesiastic who brought the great Theodosius to penance -- and dominated the policies of Valentinian III.

"The young Emperor had an Arian mother, Justina, who tried to secure a church Milan for an Arian priest. The congregation of Ambrose remained night and day in the beleagured church in a holy 'sit-down strike' against the Empress' orders to surrender the building. Says Augustine:-'Then it was that the custom arose of singing hymns and songs, after the use of the Eastern provinces, to save the people from being utterly worn out by their long and sorrowful vigils.'

"Ambrose fought a famous battle against the Empress, and won a signal victory for intolerance.'

Durant tells us that Ambrose moved from being a politician to being a statesman and a diplomat. Apparently the importance of the difference, if there be one, exists in the organization of the Church as well as the State.

Robby

Jan Sand
September 24, 2004 - 04:15 am
I imagine that the relationship between church and state has always been an uneasy one. In very primitive societies there always has been a ruler whose power was based on prowess at war and there probably has always been a medicine man whose powers were related to arcane knowledge of herbs and drugs and a reputation of commerce with gods and demons.

In Egypt and Greece and early Rome this relationship probably continued on a more sophisticated level with classes developed to specialize in the technical aspects of each division and each separated from the population in general. The kings and emperors consulted oracles and priests for propitious predictions as to the course of their actions. There was also probably support of the priests by the enforcement powers of the kings who probably had favorites in some gods.

It is likely, in their striving to become competent, that the priests and their coterie became familiar with astronomy, chemistry, biology, and the way the Earth changed through the seasons. Their myths and stories were crude attempts to explain the universe.

In this literary adventure it is interesting to see how the social relationships evolved and changed and gave birth to a third powerful force, science, whose parent was the church, and to watch how, even up to current times, this obstreperous progeny, like any child moving into maturity, retains strong conflicts with its parent.

Éloïse De Pelteau
September 24, 2004 - 06:52 am
Jan you said: "Along with much good social sense the tenets of Christianity carry with them so much idiotic nonsense that it makes one desperate as to the intellectual capability of the species."

With the switch of one word, billions of Christians around the world might think "Along with much good social sense the tenets of Atheism carry with them so much idiotic nonsense that it makes one desperate as to the intellectual capability of the species." but they might prefer not to say it.

Participants in the previous volumes of this series brought together a group of people who have opposite world views and so far is has been a pleasure to learn through the Durants' magical penmanship thanks to careful expression of thoughts by caring and intelligent participants.

Eloïse

Jan Sand
September 24, 2004 - 07:11 am
I do not intend to tangle this group into religious arguments as people (including me) who base their outlook on their view of the world tend to get emotional in this area. You are perfectly within your right to view either version of the statement as being acceptable. And I am not offended if you feel that atheists are troubling. Merely curious as to why.

winsum
September 24, 2004 - 07:30 am
" No difficulty there -- no fine line there -- but no stimulating conversation or thought-provoking ideas either."

I must most respectfully say you are WRONG. I find many stimulating and interesting discussions on brain-mind, personal philosophy, senior sex, which are smooth sailing. people feel able to express themselve without damaging egos and lurkers eventually feel safe enough to come in now and then which doesn't happen as often here do to the stringency of the over-sight. . . . claire

and Robby that freedom quote, I use it all the time but I thought it wa voltaire. . . anyone?

winsum
September 24, 2004 - 07:49 am
there's a phrase I picked up in a group dynamics class on aggressivness vs assertiveness. Assertive is expressing your own opionion and claiming it to be only your own and givng credit where need to resources, and aggressivness is claiming to know what someone else is thinking or mind rape, putting words in someone elses mouth or making a value judgment on who they are and what they said, or based on what they did or did not say.

there is a formula for this . . . three things to say to an aggressor.

"when you . . dadadaddad"
I feel """""
I want you to STOP"

now may we proceed assertively? Claire

Malryn (Mal)
September 24, 2004 - 08:36 am
Never before in the three years of this discussion have I seen what's been going on since we started to talk about The Age of Faith.

We've been a team of participants under the guidance of a very able Discussion Leader.

We disagree, yes, but have not denigrated each other, or what we individually might believe, when we state our opinions.

We've kept to the topics which change all the time, as you will notice when you read what's typed in the heading at the top of the page in
GREEN.

We've paid attention to the quotes from the Durants' books, which ROBBY posts here every day, and we've discussed these things and learned from them.

I said what I did in Post #530 because, though I'm not a Christian (I am an agnostic), the words, "idiotic nonsense" used in the way they were offended me. What then might they do to others? I thought. People here who are enamored with words might first consider the meaning, implication and effect of the words they use before they post them here.

Now, I don't know about you, but I'd like to examine what Durant meant when he said, "Ambrose fought a battle aginst the Empress, and won a signal victory for intolerance." What is Durant talking about here?

I'd like to know more about Augustine and his statement about the "singing of hymns and songs . . . to save the people from being utterly worn out by their long and sorrowful vigils." What sorrowful vigils is he talking about here?

What was this "holy sit-down strike" against the Empress' orders all about? I'd like to know.

In other words, let's get back to what brought us here in the first place, the discussion of the eleven volumes of the Story of Civilization, and learn something the way we did for the first three years of reading, talking and thinking about these books.

Mal

Shasta Sills
September 24, 2004 - 08:44 am
I wondered what he meant by a victory for intolerance too. Who was intolerant, Ambrose or the Empress?

Jan Sand
September 24, 2004 - 09:08 am
It is important to pay close attention to the text as the book is explored, but some of the curiosities evoked seem to me to be more in the line of the type of interest brought about by gossip rather than the emergence of practices and ideas which resound with the thinking and activities we do today. Some of the relationships may have had to do with personal appearance or violation of local and temporal customs.

It is probably impossible even in such an extensive survey as this to gain discrete details on just why something occurred and just relating that they did occur can sometimes be frustrating in trying to correlate those events with contemporary attitudes and practices.

Malryn (Mal)
September 24, 2004 - 09:11 am
But who was intolerant, Ambrose or the Empress?

Mal

winsum
September 24, 2004 - 09:27 am
eloise that pharse stood out to me like a sore thumb. I read it as the churches being more powerful politically than the "executive" or kings . am I allowed to say that it's true here in Iran since the revolution the insurgency in Iraq, and that our political candidates end their speeches with "god bless you" as if we were all godly? The power of the church is insipient as it deals in emotions . . . . claire

Scrawler
September 24, 2004 - 09:33 am
According to Webster's Dictionary:

Religion is defined as:1. a) belief in a divine or superhuman power or powers to be obeyed and worshiped as the ceator(s)and ruler (s) of the universe b) expession of such a belief in conduct and ritual.

2. a) any specific syestem of belief, worship, conduct, etc. often involving a code of ethics and philosophy.

If we kept our focus on the second definition instead of the first would this be easier to discuss? In previous discussion we have discussion other philosophies throughtout our studies of civilization.

winsum
September 24, 2004 - 09:38 am
the second definition would be interesing if it involved a detailed examination of each of the systems involved and a comparison of them related to the individual society espousing it. . . this is, I think a little beyond the scope of what the Durants intended, although with the cyber help we have all we need is a hot link. . . . claire

moxiect
September 24, 2004 - 09:51 am


Mal - Who was intolerant, Ambrose or the Empress?

Could it possibly be that both where intolerant of each others point of view? And the one who overcame the other's view had a much stronger will to succeed.

Robby, I said it before and I'll say it again. It's fascinating to read man's interpretations.

Malryn (Mal)
September 24, 2004 - 10:08 am
MOXIE, I believe you're right. It sounds to me as if Empress Justina was on the side of the Arians, and Ambrose was intolerant of Arians.
"Rarely, if ever, has a Christian bishop been so universally popular, in the best sense of that much abused term, as Ambrose of Milan. This popularity, conjoined with his intrepidity, was the secret of his success in routing enthroned iniquity. The heretical Empress Justina and her barbarian advisers would many a time fain have silenced him by exile or assassination, but, like Herod in the case of the Baptist, they "feared the multitude". . . .

"The elder Valentinian died suddenly in 375, the year following the consecration of Ambrose, leaving his Arian brother Valens to scourge the East, and his oldest son, Gratian, to rule the provinces formerly presided over by Ambrosius, with no provision for the government of Italy. The army seized the reins and proclaimed emperor the son of Valentinian by his second wife, Justina, a boy four years old.

"Gratian good-naturally acquiesced, and assigned to his half-brother the sovereignty of Italy, Illyricum, and Africa. Justina had prudently concealed her Arian view during the lifetime of her orthodox husband, but now, abetted by a powerful and mainly Gothic faction at court, proclaimed her determination to rear her child in that heresy, and once more attempt to Arianize the West.

"This of necessity brought her into direct collision with the Bishop of Milan, who had quenched the last embers of Arianism in his diocese. That heresy had never been popular among the common people; it owed its artificial vitality to the intrigues of courtiers and sovereigns. As a preliminary to the impending contest, Ambrose, at the request of Gratian, who was about to lead an army to the relief of Valens, and wished to have at hand an antidote against Oriental sophistry, wrote his noble work, De Fide ad Gratianum Augustum, afterwards expanded, and extant in five books.

"The first passage at arms between Ambrose and the Empress was on the occasion of an episcopal election at Sirmium, the capital of Illyricum, and at the time the residence of Justina. Notwithstanding her efforts, Ambrose was successful in securing the election of a Catholic bishop. He followed up this victory by procuring, at the Council of Aquilein, (381), over which he presided, the deposition of the only remaining Arianizing prelates of the West, Palladius and Secundianus, both Illyrians.

"The battle royal between Ambrose and the Empress, in the years 385,386, has been graphically described by Cardinal Newman in his Historical Sketches

. " The question at issue was the surrender of one of the basilicas to the Arians for public worship. Throughout the long struggle Ambrose displayed in an eminent degree all the qualities of a great leader. His intrepidity in the moments of personal danger was equalled only by his admirable moderation; for, at certain critical stages of the drama one word from him would have hurled the Empress and her son from their throne.

"That word was never spoken. An enduring result of this great struggle with despotism was the rapid development during its course of the ecclesiastical chant, of which Ambrose laid the foundation. Unable to overcome the fortitude of the Bishop and the spirit of the people, the court finally desisted from its efforts. Ere long it was forced to call upon Ambrose to exert himself to save the imperilled throne."

Source:

St. Charles Borromeo Catholic Church: Patron Saints: Ambrose

Malryn (Mal)
September 24, 2004 - 10:29 am


"As the feast of Easter approached, the empress sent to St. Ambrose to ask a church of him, where the Arians who attended her might meet together. He replied, that a Bishop could not give up the temple of God. The pretorian prefect came into the church, where St. Ambrose was attended by the people, and endeavoured to persuade him to yield up at least the Portian Basilica. The people were clamorous against the proposal; and the prefect retired to report how matters stood to the emperor.

"The Sunday following St. Ambrose was explaining the creed, when he was informed that the officers were hanging up the Imperial hangings in the Portian Basilica, and that upon this news the people were repairing thither. While he was offering up the holy sacrifice, a second message came that the people had seized an Arian priest as he was passing through the street. He despatched a number of his clergy to the spot to rescue the Arian from his danger.

"The court looked on this resistance of the people as seditious, and immediately laid considerable {463} fines upon the whole body of the tradesmen of the city. Several were thrown into prison. In three days' time these tradesmen were fined two hundred pounds weight of gold, and they said that they were ready to give as much again on condition that they might retain their faith.

"The prisons were filled with tradesmen; all the officers of the household, secretaries, agents of the emperor, and dependent officers who served under various counts, were kept within doors, and were forbidden to appear in public, under pretence that they should bear no part in sedition. Men of higher rank were menaced with severe consequences, unless the Basilica were surrendered ...

"Next morning the Basilica was surrounded by soldiers; but it was reported, that these soldiers had sent to the Emperor to tell him, that if he wished to come abroad he might, and that they would attend him, if he was going to the assembly of the Catholics: otherwise, that they would go to that which would be held by St. Ambrose. Indeed, the soldiers were all Catholics, as well as the citizens of Milan: there were so few heretics there, except a few officers of the emperor and some Goths.

"St. Ambrose was continuing his discourse, when he was told that the Emperor had withdrawn the soldiers from the Basilica, and that he had restored to the tradesmen the fines which he had exacted from them. This news gave joy to the people, who expressed their delight with applauses and thanksgivings; the soldiers themselves were eager to bring the news, throwing themselves on the altars, and kissing them in token of peace. "Fleury's Hist. xviii. 41, 42, Oxf. trans."

Source:

"The Orthodoxy of the Body of the Faithful during the Supremacy of Arianism" from Arians of the 4th Century by Cardinal Newman

winsum
September 24, 2004 - 02:19 pm
re your quote:
"singing of hymns and songs . . . to save the people from being utterly worn out by their long and sorrowful vigils.

your emphasis is different than mine. minee is on the music and coincidentally I just happened to tune into a pbc program on the effects of music in every culture on the performers and listeners. it's profound in itself and used for religion and polatics for that reason . . . .

Love your story about all the political manuverings betwen the saint ambrose and the empress who it seems is still a pagan?. . . .I"m confused. . .oh well onward. . .claire

3kings
September 24, 2004 - 02:52 pm
Ambrose and the Empress.... I like to keep in mind the thought that the victor gets to dictate the history.

I often wonder what the view of George Washington would be had the British soldiery been victorious. Or Adolph Hitler, had Germany won the WW2. ++ Trevor

Justin
September 24, 2004 - 03:52 pm
In spite of the nonsense associated with Christianity, the Christian concept early on became an important force in the world and has remained so for 2000 years. The Church no longer burns dissenters at the stake, but it continues to persecute dissenters.

Christendom, today, is larger than the Church. It emcompasses many of the heresies of the past and the ideas of the Reformation.It is an enormous force in the world. Those of us who recognize the evils inherent in this force are honor bound by intellectual honesty to call the shots as we see them. Politicians play to the gullible among us. We must expect that but at the same time to do our bit to understand and convey our dissent.

Justin
September 24, 2004 - 04:21 pm
The topic we have under discussion now is not a topic one finds a forum for every day. I can't imagine raising any of these questions at an Elks smoker or a VFW pot luck or at the bridge table. It is a popular topic but social taboos exist which put the topic off-limits. Fear of being considered "intolerant," allows only the positive side of religion to be heard.It is the side of the priests and other advocates that one hears freely. Others are not permitted to approach the topic. The negative side is almost never expressed. As a result, the ordinary person, must find for oneself the character of the message delivered and that requires an intellectual exercise of which not everyone is capable.

robert b. iadeluca
September 24, 2004 - 04:49 pm
Great interchange today! We agree to disagree and no one's nose has been touched. Now Durant moves us from The Christian West to the Christian East.

"As the Church ceased to be a set of devotees and became an institution governing millions of men, she tended to adopt a more lenient view of human frailty and to tolerate, sometimes to share, the pleasures of this world. A minority of Christians held such condescension to be treason to Christ. They resolved to gain heaven by poverty, chastity, and prayer, and retired completely from the world.

"Possibly Ashoka's missionaries (c.250 B.C.) had brought to the Near East the monastic forms as well as the theory and ethics of Buddhism. Pre-Christian anchorites like those of Serapis in Egypt, or the Essene communities in Judea, may have transmitted to Anthony and Pachomius the ideal and methods of the strictly religious life. Monasticism was for many souls a refuge from the chaos and war of the barbarian invasions. There were no taxes in the monastery or the desert cell -- no military service -- no marital strife -- no weary toil.

"Ordination to the priesthood was not required of a monk and after a few years of peace would come eternal bliss.

"Egypt whose climate almost invited monasticism, teemed with anchoritic and cenobitic monks, following the solitary habits of Anthony, or the community life that Pachomius had established at Tabenne. The Nile was banked with monasteries and convents some containing as many as 3000 monks and nuns.

"Of the anchorites Anthony (c.251-356) was by far the most renowned. After wandering from solitude to solitude he fixed his cell on Mount Kolzim, near the Red Sea. Admirers found him out, imitated his devotion, and built their cells as near to his as he would permit. Before he died the desert was peopled with his spiritual progeny.

"He seldom washed, and lived to the age of 105. He declined an invitation from Constantine but at the age of ninety he journeyed to Alexandria to support Athanasius against the Arians.

"Only less famous was Pachomius who (325) founded nine monasteries and one nunnery. Sometimes 7000 monks who followed his rule gathered to celebrate some holy day.

"These cenobites worked as well as prayed. Periodically they sailed down the Nile to Alexandria to sell their products, buy their necessities, and join in the ecclesiastical political fray."

How to be alone in a crowd.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 24, 2004 - 04:59 pm
Definition of an ANCHORITE.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 24, 2004 - 05:09 pm
Definition and origin of MONASTICISM.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 24, 2004 - 05:35 pm
Photos of MONKS AND MONASTERIES in Egypt.

Robby

Justin
September 24, 2004 - 07:28 pm
It is one thing for monks to emulate John the Baptist, quite another to emulate Jesus. John was a dirty, wandering, man with a reputation for talking about a God who would make an earthly appearance quite soon. John's God, he said, intended to judge everyone for their deeds and misdeeds. I think he had in mind punishment for the Romans who were thought to be bad guys at the time.

After John's execution, Jesus took over his message but not his way of life. Jesus was gregarious. He was a man of the world. He loved women and gave public talks on a variety of topics. Mystical things were assigned to him such as healing the sick. He was neither anchorite nor cenobite. He was a friend to man except for those who did not heed his message. He had no hesitation about taking his followers away from family and friends to follow him. He is not a monk's model yet the monks say they emulate Jesus. I guess these guys just never bothered to figure out what Jesus was all about.

Fifi le Beau
September 24, 2004 - 09:51 pm
Anthony was the most known Anchorite of his time, and Durant tells us he lived to be 105 and that he seldom washed.

Does this mean that bathing and exercise has been overrated in the race for longevity?

The Anchorites who lived and preached atop columns and alarmed the citizens peaked my interest. The columns were perhaps ruins left standing after all the wars, and would have given the speaker a commanding position over his intended audience. Living on top of a column would seem a precarious perch, and would rule out bathing or getting much exercise.

I then went to Robby's link on Anchorites and never got beyond the first sentence that gives a description from the Catholic view.

In Christian terminology, men who have sought to triumph over the two unavoidable enemies of human salvation, the flesh and the devil

The flesh I understood to mean sex which has been much discussed and written about endlessly, and reaffirmed again here as an enemy of humanity.

The devil....... I clicked on to his name since it was highlighted to find the Catholic definition. Since I am not Catholic, it contained new information for me as to their belief.

They say, "It is clearly taught that the devil and other demons are spiritual or angelic creatures created by God in a state of innocence, and they became evil by their own act."

"Angels-pure spiritual beings without any body, and in their natural state they are endowed with supernatural grace and placed in a condition of probation."

In the body of this long article I found the following. "Rational writers have rejected the doctrine altogether, and seek to show that it has been borrowed by Judaism and Christianity from primitive Animism."

The Catholic church however does not hold this view and so states in the article.

The Greek definition for devil or demon is adversary or accuser. It is the same in Hebrew for Satan.

I will not go into the explanation given as to why an angel became the devil or accuser because there are several, but they mainly center on a power struggle.

This all reminds me of the book of Enoch that never made it into the old or new testament, but whose writings appear in scattered phrases through out the Bible. Enoch wrote that the devil was cast out of heaven because he chose to take some of the other angels and go down to earth and have sex with the women they had been eyeing. They did go down and live as humans and have sex, which would be hard to explain since the above explanation says they have no body.

I suppose that meant they broke their probation.

Fifi

winsum
September 24, 2004 - 11:42 pm
you said "nonsense" and got away with it. of course you didn't say "idiotic" in accompanyment. . .I couldn't agree more . . . . congratulations. . .

and fifi what a great researcher you are. how could I have lived without knowing where the devil came from I thought maybe it was a play on words "eve" d-evel only with an e where the i should be. after all she is blamed for talking adam into that bite of the apple and for the resulting knowledge of good and EVIL. . . . fun post. . .

Jan Sand
September 24, 2004 - 11:50 pm
I originally decided to participate in this discussion because I have only the vaguest historical familiarity with the eras involved and am interested in getting a more detailed view to illuminate what humanity has been and how that relates to what humanity has become.

I am grateful to the discussion for prompting me to obtain the book from the library and find it easy to comprehend.

This section deals with the development of modern faith, an attitude that has always puzzled me as it seems to constrain human mental capability within a cage of unquestioned assumptions and directives.

The previous post describing the belief in nature of angels and demons and their relations with humanity and an overbeing of supernatural powers seems to me to be to be characteristic of mental pathology which has lead to the horrors of burning people alive and torturing them in horrible ways. If I am constrained from presenting the viewpoint that this does not register to me as sensible behavior and is based on what I can only characterize as pathological idiocy, then this is not a place I would prefer to display my views.

I can pursue the book alone and at my own pace and am withdrawing from further participation.

robert b. iadeluca
September 25, 2004 - 04:40 am
Jan, I am glad you were able to obtain the book. You may find as you read the various passages that you will be tempted to check in here to learn the relevant comments of others.

I had the eleven volumes on my shelf for years and never put reading them high on my priority list due to other activities in my life. Then with Senior Net available to me, I realized that I would receive much greater joy reading and sharing with others than reading them alone.

And then, of course, there is the great benefit of the links one has here which one does not have if one is reading the book alone. The links not only give us text not found in Durant and photos which we would not see otherwise, but enable us to get recent perspectives which Durant could not give because he and Ariel wrote this in the early 20th century.

Stay subscribed. Your comments are welcome whenever you wish.

Robby

Jan Sand
September 25, 2004 - 04:59 am
I thank you for the message, but I have a strong aversion to the fantastic destructive directions that human culture has and is indulging in and it greatly disturbs me that the magnificent potential of the human race should be subverted by such obvious inconsistancies embodied in much of faith. I cannot suppress emotional comments and I think it is better that I am not stimulated to do so. I will continue with my reading in private.

robert b. iadeluca
September 25, 2004 - 05:31 am
"Among the anchorites a keen rivalry arose for the austerity championship. Says Abbe Duchesne:-'Macarius of Alexandria could never hear of my feat of asceticism without at once trying to surpass it.' If other monks ate no cooked food in Lent, Macarius ate none for seven years. If some punished themselves with sleeplessness, Macarius could be seen 'frantically endeavoring for twenty consecutive nights to keep himself awake.'

"Throughout one Lent he stood upright night and day, and ate nothing except, once a week, a few cabbage leaves. During this time he continued to work at his basket-weaving trade. For six months he slept in a marsh, and exposed his naked body to poisonous flies.

"Some monks excelled in fears of solitude. So Serapion inhabited a cave at the bottom of an abyss into which few pilgrims had the hardihood to descend. When Jerome and Paula reached his lair, they found a man almost composed of bones, dressed only in a loincloth, face and shoulders covered by uncut hair. His cell was barely large enough for a bed of leaves and a plank. Yet this man had lived among the aristocracy of Rome.

"Some, like Bessarion for forty, Pachomius for fifty, years, never lay down while they slept. Some specialized in silence, and went many years without uttering a word. Others carried heavy weights wherever they went, or bound their limbs with iron bracelets, greaves, or chains. Many proudly recorded the number of years since they had looked upon a woman's face.

"Nearly all anchorites lived -- some to a great age -- on a narrow range of food. Jerome tells of monks who subsisted exclusively on figs or on barley bread. When Macarius was ill, someone brought him grapes. Unwilling so to indulge himself, he sent them to another hermit, who sent them to another. So they made the rounds of the desert (Rufinius assures us) until they came back intact to Macarius.

"The pilgrims who flocked from all quarters of the Christian world to see the monks of the East credited them with miracles as remarkable as those of Christ. They could cure diseases or repel demons by a touch or a word, tame serpents or lions with a look or a prayer, and cross the Nile on the back of a crocodile.

"The relics of the anchorites became the most precious possession of Christian churches, and are treasured in them to this day."

Speaking as a clinical psychologist, I can attest to the power of belief among various ones of my patients. Belief is powerful! Belief can lead to illness. Belief can lead to healing. Belief can lead to a delay of death. I am speaking of true belief, not someone who lightly says "yes, I believe." Some of these patients believed in God. Some did not. But the belief was there.

For eight years I visited a Psychiatric Institute regularly to evaluate people who had been brought in by law-enforcement officers for "erratic" behavior. It was my responsibility to recommend to the special justice that the person be discharged, or ordered to receive outpatient treatment, or be hospitalized.

I assure eveyone here -- that was not always easy. If the person, who may have been reported by a family member, told me that he ate only once a week because God told him to do so, who was I to say that this was not so? Who was I (mere mortal that I am) to say that God did not exist or that God did not talk to him? Who was I to diagnosis him with schizophrenia simply because he was acting in a way different from most people in society?

On more than one occasion, I recommended discharge to the judge. The law said that a person was to be treated if he was harmful to himself or others. If they were able to subsist on such meager food and if, in so doing, they were not harming others, then in my opinion they should not be incarcerated. The fact that they were "different" was irrelevant.

Perhaps this brief anecdote about myself will help others here to understand why I am adamant that we respect the views of others and not be so quick to judge them through the glasses of our own belief. If certain monks in Durant's story wanted to show that not only were they humble, but that they were more humble than others, so be it. To the best of my knowledge, they were not hurting others. Were they hurting themselves? I don't know. What is your definition of "hurt?" Do you mean physically? To what degree? Do you mean mentally, emotionally, spiritually?

And I suppose we should emphasize that we are now talking about the Christian East. We are talking about the Oriental influence. Are most of us looking at such behavior through the glasses of the West?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
September 25, 2004 - 06:40 am
Before you go, JAN, let me thank you for opening my eyes to the fact that at least two people here can believe almost the same thing and express it so differently. My regret is that you aren't hanging around long enough to give us your impressions and opinions of Islam when Durant talks about that. I'll always wonder what you might have said.

CLAIRE, yeah, but how do you fit "eve" into diable?

When I read ROBBY's comments about differences, I thought of my Florida son, who has a brilliant mind. My son, Rob, suffers from schizophrenia. There are occasions when he hears voices and sees things that people like me can't see. During the years I was his advocate and caregiver, I fought doctors to keep him out of an institution. Later I wrote a story called "Miracles" about the time Rob saw God walking down what he called "the Holy Rainbow." It ends this way:


"Tears in his eyes, Chris searched his brother's face. 'Rob. . . . Rob, tell me. Who's to know what's real? Who's to know what you see? Who knows what miracles there really are? "
Mal

robert b. iadeluca
September 25, 2004 - 07:50 am
Here are some definitions and descriptions of RELICS -- both Christian and non-Christian.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 25, 2004 - 08:17 am
The photos and text in this article may help us to better understand CHRISTIAN MONASTERIES IN EGYPT.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
September 25, 2004 - 09:31 am
St. Macarius, Hermit

robert b. iadeluca
September 25, 2004 - 09:47 am
An interesting Category Tree on the topic of GOODNESS.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 25, 2004 - 09:48 am
An interesting Category Tree on the topic of GOODNESS.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
September 25, 2004 - 09:50 am
"The party arrived at Antioch about the year 373. There Jerome at first attended the lectures of the famous Apollinaris, bishop of Laodicea, who had not yet put forward his heresy1 With his companions he left the city for the desert of Chalcis, about fifty miles southeast of Antioch. Innocent and Hylas soon died there, and Heliodorus left to return to the West, but Jerome stayed for four years, which were passed in study and in the practice of austerity. He had many attacks of illness but suffered still more from temptation. 'In the remotest part of a wild and stony desert,' he wrote years afterwards to his friend Eustochium, 'burnt up with the heat of the sun, so scorching that it frightens even the monks who live there, I seemed to myself to be in the midst of the delights and crowds of Rome.... In this exile and prison to which through fear of Hell I had voluntarily condemned myself, with no other company but scorpions and wild beasts, I many times imagined myself watching the dancing of Roman maidens as if I had been in the midst of them. My face was pallid with fasting, yet my will felt the assaults of desire. In my cold body and my parched flesh, which seemed dead before its death, passion was still able to live. Alone with the enemy, I threw myself in spirit at the feet of Jesus, watering them with my tears, and tamed my flesh by fasting whole weeks. I am not ashamed to disclose my temptations, though I grieve that I am not now what I then was.' "

Source:

St. Jerome

winsum
September 25, 2004 - 11:17 am
I protest: the rigidity of your rules deprives US of input from an extraordinary resource. give Jan a special pass to express emotionally and anyone who doesnt like it can skip his posts. The rest of us will benefit and we go on undisturbed. . . . . claire

robert b. iadeluca
September 25, 2004 - 11:47 am
Please let me try again to explain. Jan is at any time permitted to express himself emotionally. (And, by the way, none of this has ever been addressed directly to Jan (at least not by me). All of us, including me, can certainly share emotions.

The original guidelines were simple. We address principles, not personalities. Some here are Christian, some are Jewish, some are agnostic, some are atheists. Let us say, for example, that I am a Christian. If, in commenting on one of the paragraphs in Durant you said that Christianity is a stupid religion, I might very well be hurt. True, you didn't address me directly but indirectly I could be hurt and decide not to participate any longer.

On the other hand, if you said that you felt strongly (emotionally) that there was no logic behind it, that would be very different from saying that the religion of Christianity was "ridiculous", "stupid," "crazy," etc. etc.

What I am really referring to is the choice of words. Please believe me, folks, I have observed personally the religious forums in Senior Net where those words are used and in just a few postings it can get completely out of hand. If we didn't have some sort of guideline here -- (courtesy and consideration) -- we would find ourselves with a Story of Civilization which died after three volumes.

I recommend strongly that everyone here re-read the first three postings in detail. I assume that everyone here has already read them. And feel free at any time to contact Marcie.

Robby

JoanK
September 25, 2004 - 12:09 pm
To affirm what Robby said: we are not talking about hiding beliefs here, we are talking about expressing your belief (no matter how emotionally)while at the same time acknowledging that others have a right to opposing beliefs. It is partly a matter of style,and partly a matter of holding an even deeper belief that every human being is worthy of respect.

I hope, JAN, that you recognize this and will stay with us. If you had said "It hurts me to my core to see human beings believing things which I see as harming themselves and others and preventing the growth of which I believe the human spirit is capable ", I don't believe anyone would have been hurt: perhaps even those who disagree might have understood. (I'm not pretending to be able to express your feelings here; only to give an example).

robert b. iadeluca
September 25, 2004 - 12:18 pm
"It hurts me to my core to see human beings believing things which I see as harming themselves and others and preventing the growth of which I believe the human spirit is capable."That quote of Joan's is a beautiful example of well-chosen words. If it's pure emotion we want, the religious forums can give us all, and more, than we want.

I neglected to mention that there may be Muslim people in this forum. As we go another 100 pages or so into the book and begin to discuss Islam, I am looking foward to our discussing the religion of Islam keeping in mind that we may be discussing the religion of some person here who is Muslim.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 25, 2004 - 12:22 pm
We have gone eleven postings discussing ourselves rather than the book. Any comments here concerning the events in Post 573? The events related by Durant, not my comments.

Robby

Shasta Sills
September 25, 2004 - 02:09 pm
I had my suspicions of Jerome all along. There he is out there in the desert saying his prayers, and what is he really thinking of? The dancing girls in Rome. Any time a person goes to such extremes as he did to suppress sex, it's because he's desperately trying to control his own lust. People with normal sexual instincts don't have to go to these extremes.

I'm usually a tolerant person. I don't care what kind of shenanigans the next guy is up to, as long as he's not bothering me. But some of those monks were doing things that I would be tempted to call masochism rather than holiness.

robert b. iadeluca
September 25, 2004 - 02:15 pm
Here are some definitions of MASOCHISM.

Robby

winsum
September 25, 2004 - 03:55 pm
are ompeteing . . . is that holy or is it just another form of agression. and shasta I think by the time a person has shriveled up to bones etc. his sex drive is long gone. . .. maybethat's why they do it, to get rid of the inconvenient thing that interferes with their belief system. . . . claire

and according to robbys link "

1. The deriving of sexual gratification, or the tendency to derive sexual gratification, from being physically or emotionally abused." maybe I got it. if they're lusting after food and their bodies need that more than sex, they're purified.

JoanK
September 25, 2004 - 04:30 pm
When I lived in Israel, an Israeli friend had a very cynical take on those mystics who had gone out to the desert to live. Carob (St. John's bread) grows wild there. He said they all lived on carob. When eaten in quantity, it is a hallucinogen. So his feeling (this was in the 60s -- you can tell) was that they were out there getting high and having visions.(Yeah, right.)

I don't agree. There is a lot more to it than that. It is not just a Christian practice: there seem to be ascetics in all religions. Remember Buddha started out that way and then rejected it for the "middle way". There seems to be a connection that cuts across specific religions to asceticism and religiosity.

winsum
September 25, 2004 - 05:41 pm
I was relating to it in connection with the self imposed starvation that many perfectionist young women and girls practise in search of their own perfect body = anorexics. There are some males that do it too but it's mostly female. the goal is one of perfection of self in a world of imperfection. Isn't that the image of god, all knowing, all seeing omniscent? The women approach it almost as if it were a religion with strong emotional dependency. I think that is my principle objection to any religion, the requirement of dependency and the obstruction of personal automomy. . . . claire

Éloïse De Pelteau
September 25, 2004 - 06:40 pm
A lot of water has passed under the bridge since we started on the first volume of Story of Civilization in November 2001.

Those of us who started at the beginning have read every one of the 16,264 posts. That is quite an accomplishment and worth congratulating our gracious leader on his birthday.

Happy Birthday Robby.

Eloïse

moxiect
September 25, 2004 - 06:58 pm


Happy Birthday Robby

JoanK
September 25, 2004 - 07:22 pm
HAPPY BIRTHDAY ROBBY

Malryn (Mal)
September 25, 2004 - 07:43 pm

Happy Birthday to my favorite 40 year old !

( Robby's been 39 for so long that he decided to turn 40 today.)

Fifi le Beau
September 25, 2004 - 08:51 pm
Happy birthday Robby.

I find all these stories about saints to be fascinating. Having protestant parents, I was taken to church until age sixteen when I was sent away to college. We did not have saints, so these names are all new to me. I know the names of some of the later saints, but not the ones we are reading about.

After reading about the lifestyle of the Anchorites, I find them too (I'm looking for the right word Robby) unusual for me to understand their motives.

Macarius says in one of the links given, "I have never once eaten, drunk, or slept as much as nature required."

He may never have eaten, drunk, or slept as much as "he" wanted, but he did meet natures requirements however scant, or else he would have died.

Fifi

Justin
September 25, 2004 - 08:56 pm
Jan; I understand your reluctance to participate when you think you can not express your views in full. I faced the same frustrating wall for awhile but I discovered that one can say all one wants to say if one is clever enough to phrase the comment to fit the constraint. It is not difficult. One must simply focus on processes and not on people who practice the process. You are a clever guy and the challenge to function in this environment is worthy of your skills in communication. If you choose to go, so be it but you will be missing an opportunity to talk about interesting topics with people who appreciate what you have to say.

Justin
September 25, 2004 - 09:46 pm
Anchorites existed before Christianity. The Essenes could easily be called anchorite. They, like the 19th century Shakers, were self destructive. Someone has already pointed out that Buddha tried it before moderating his behavior.

Anchorite behavior is strange, unusual, and clearly, self destructive and as Robby pointed out there are folks who function, today, in just this manner. The Penitentia in Spain, who whip themselves during Lent , use self-abuse to experience the pain inflicted on Christ. Does the practice bring them closer to what they perceive as God? Perhaps, but more likely it brings a painful back wound and some one-way spiritual conversation. I am afraid there is not much one can do to convince the deity to reply. As usual,the Deity keeps it's own counsel.

robert b. iadeluca
September 26, 2004 - 03:52 am
Thank you all for your birthday wishes. It's an interesting coincidence that I am entering middle age just at the time that we are talking about the start of the Middle Ages. I have often wondered how it could be that my children are middle aged when I am only middle aged myself. But that is a topic for another time or forum.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 26, 2004 - 04:22 am
"The Church did not aprove of such excesses. Perhaps she sensed a fierce pride in these humiliations, a spiritual greed in theis self denial, a secret sensualism in this flight from woman and the world.

"The records of these ascetics abound in sexual visions and dreams. Their cells resounded with their moans as they struggled with imaginary temptations and erotic thoghts. They believed that the air about them was full of demons assailing hem. The monks seem to have found it harder to be virtuous in solitude than if they had lived among all the opportunities of the town.

"It was not unusual for anchorites to go mad. Rufinus tells of a young monk whose cell was entered by a beautiful woman. He succumbed to her charms, after which she disappeared, he thought, into the air. The monk ran out wildly to the nearest village and leaped into the furnace of a public bath to cool his fire.

"In another case a young woman begged admission to a monk's cell on the plea that wild beasts were pursuing her. He consented to take her in briefly but in that hour she happened to touch him, and the flame of desire sprang up in him as if all his years of austerity had left it undimmed. He tried to grasp her but she vanished from his arms and his sight and a chorus of demons, we are told, exulted with loud laughter over his fall. This monk, says Rufinus, could no longer bear the monastic life. Like Paphnuce in Anatole France's Thais, he could not exorcise the vision of beauty that he had imagined or seen. He left his cell, plunged into the life of the city, and followed that vision at last into hell

"The organized Church had at first no control over the monks who rarely took any degree of holy orders. Yet she felt responsibility for their excesses since she shared in the glory of their deeds. She could not afford to agree completely with monastic ideals. She praised celibacy, virginity, and poverty but could not condemn marriage or parentage or property as sins. She had now a stake in the continuance of the race.

"Some monks left their cells or monasteries at will and troubled the populace with their begging. Some went from town to town preaching asceticism, selling real or bogus relics, terrorizing synods and exciting impressionable people to destroy pagan temples or statuary or, now and then, to kill an Hyparia. The Church could not tolerate these independent actions.

"The Council of Chalcedon (451) ordained that greater circumspection should be used in admitting persons to monastic vows, that such vows should be irrevocable, and that no one should organize a mmonastery or leave it without permission from the bishop of the diocese."

Organization takes over. Any comments?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 26, 2004 - 05:42 am
The most important enactments of the council of Chalcedon were the following:

"(1) the approval of the canons of the first three ecumenical councils and of the synods of Ancyra, NeoCaesarea, Changra, Antioch and Laodicea;

(2) forbidding trade, secular pursuits and war to the clergy, bishops not even being allowed to administer the property of their dioceses;

(3) forbidding monks and nuns to marry or to return to the world; likewise forbidding the establishment of a monastery in any diocese without the consent of the bishop, or the disestablishment of a monastery once consecrated;

(4) punishing with deposition an ordination or clerical appointment made for money; forbidding absolute ordination (i.e. without assignment to a particular charge), the translation of derics except for good cause, the enrolment of a cleric in two churches at once, and the performance of sacerdotal functions outside of ones diocese without letters of commendation from ones bishop;

(5) confirming the jurisdiction of bishops over all clerics, regular and secular alike, and punishing with deposition any conspiracy against episcopal authority;

(6) establishing a gradation of ecclesiastical tribunals, viz, bishop, provincial synod, exarch of the diocese, patriarch of Constantinople (obviously the council could not here have been legislating for the entire church); forbidding clerics to be running to Constantinople with complaints, without the consent of their respective bishops;

(7) confirming the possession of rural parishes to those who had actually administered them for thirty years, providing for the adjudication of conflicting claims, and guaranteeing the integrity of metropolitan provinces;

( confirming the third canon of the second ecumenical council, which accorded to Constantinople equal privileges with Rome, and the second rank among the patriarchates, and, in addition, granting to Constantinople patriarchal jurisdiction over Pontus, Asia and Thrace."

Bubble
September 26, 2004 - 06:40 am
I remember in the convent school how the message of purity and chastity was emphasized already from elementary school. We were given edificative lives of saints to read during the week end, Tharcisius whose name the main mother of the convent had chosen for herself, Thesesa of Avila, Bernadette Soubirou, Francis of Assissi who spoke to the birds.

The nuns talked in admiration of a local priest who wore under his cassock a vest of hemps that was irritating his skin and reminding him of his vows, "giving his discomfort for the good of sinners" they said. It sounded obscure to me.

I remember my friends in class talking about each saint and his attributes or speciality. St Christopher was prayed to for helping to find lost objects or for protection while traveling, Ste Catherine was the one to seek for unmarried girls, St Benoit of Nursie who was an hermit and founded the order of the Benedictines.

I remember the convent was so well organized: the receiving of a new nun into the community was a well orchestrated affair. Of course much was not talked of on the outside, but the ceremenial mass was open and one could see the new nun getting the new name in religion that she had chosen, and her receiving the golden band to her finger chowing that she had been married to God. This particularly awed the little girls who heard about it and many vowed they would follow that road when they were older. I must add that I knew some mothers to share proudly that choice of vocation with their friends.

One of our nuns, Sr Rose-Anne de Marie decided one day that she was not suited for the convent life and she left the community. She had a beautiful face and a regal walk. Rumor was that she came from an aristocratic family. It was all hush-hush and she was never talked about again in the school. Not long ago, while in Europe, I heard she had reintagrate the order. Of course I never asked what happened, but I called the Foyer and talked to her. She remembered me quite well. Unfortunately she lived to far for me to visit.

robert b. iadeluca
September 26, 2004 - 06:51 am
Bubble:-Your comment about Ste. Catherine brought back memories of the time I spent in Paris in 1945-46 after the war. There was a specific date (I don't remember which one) which was called Ste. Catherine's day when unmarried girls wore broad brimmed hats indicating to others that they were not married.

And it was not so long ago that it was common to see St. Christopher statues hanging from car rear-view windows. I don't see them that much anymore.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
September 26, 2004 - 07:31 am
Message to middle-aged youngsters living in Virginia: Batten down the hatches and get out the pot to catch the water from the roof leak; a hurricane is headed your way. The prediction for my part of NC is strong storms for tomorrow and heavy rain on Tuesday. Guess who's not going to the airport this time?

St. Christopher was desanctified. I'm not sure why.

I grew up with Catholics who talked about their Saint Days. St. James High School was a big rival of Haverhill High in my hometown. MOXIE will tell you about parochial schools in Lawrence where she grew up, right next door to Haverhill. Maybe she'll tell me why people pray to St. Anthony when they lose things.



As I read the posts yesterday I was thinking that no one was mentioning the passion, devotion and dedication that people like the Anchorites felt.

I knew boys in high school whose aim in life was to become priests and girls who wanted most of all to become nuns and devote their lives to the Sacred Heart, service and sacrifice. Believing that Jesus is the Son of God, they tried to emulate him in word and deed.

He gave his life to atone for the sins of the world, according to the Bible. Before any of these people could follow their calling, they had to atone for their sins. If wearing a hair shirt, or the equivalent, was the way to do this; then that's what they did.

It has nothing to do with sex. It has to do with complete and utter devotion to God and being called by that deity to serve humanity and the world through service to God.

There is a selflessness about this passion, and ridding oneself of Self is an important part of it. Christianity is not the only religion that emphasizes this. This was how the Anchorites felt, and is also the way priests and nuns I've known feel, including those I've met in a 12 step program. If you have ever been passionate about something that is not a human being, you can understand.

Dedicating one's life to God and service to mankind is what Jesus did, whether or not he was divine. This was his passion and was and is the passion of others who follow in his footsteps.

Such devotion is not to be belittled or criticized. That is my feeling, and though I've been to mass many, many times alone and with friends, and have even had an inkling of how these believers feel, I have never been a Catholic.

Mal

winsum
September 26, 2004 - 07:47 am
Mal there are ways to contribute to the welfare of the world that aren't self mutilating. My father was a a prime example.

When he died and was put to rest in a jewish cemetary with a maseleum my mother selected the hall of devotion which she felt most exemplefied his life . . . devoted not ony to family but to country and community. . . an attorney for the support of his family, a soldier in WW1,a scorge on jewish zionists whom he thought of as not appreciating what they had in the USA, and a community activist fighting henry ford and his ilk who were active jew-haters politaly, working with hollywod to rid the movies of stereotyping. Remember dorie shares moveie "gentleman's aggrement" and "the boy with the green hair". . . . the first movies in which HOllywood addressed the problems of bigotry. .

He was utterly devoted. . . I guess you could call it passion except I think it's more like character. And it sounds to me like Jesus was simply another good devoted Jew. . . .

robert b. iadeluca
September 26, 2004 - 08:48 am
"Christianity was now (400) almost completely triumphant in the East. In Egypt the native Christians, or Copts, were already a majority of the population, supporting hundreds of churches and monasteries.

"Ninety Egyptian bishops acknowledged the authority of the patriarch in Alexandria who almost rivaled the power of the Pharaohs and the Ptolemies. Some of these patriarchs were ecclesiastical politicians of no lovable type, like the Theophilus who burned to the ground the pagan temple and library of Serapis (389).

"More pleasing is the modest bishop of Ptolemais, Synetius. Born in Cyrene (c.365), he studied mathematics and philosophy at Alexandria under Hypatia. To the end of his life he remained her devoted friend, calling her 'the true exponent of the true philosophy.' He visited Athens and was there confirmed in his paganism. But in 403 he married a Christian lady and gallantly accepted Christianity. He found it a simple courtesy to transform his Neoplatonic trinity of the One, the nous, and the Soul into the Father, Spirit, and the Son.

"He wrote many delightful letters, and some minor philosophical works of which none is of value to anyone today except his essay In Praise of Baldness.

"In 410 Theophilus offered him the bishopric of Ptolemais. He was now a country gentleman with more money than ambition. He protested that he was unfit -- that he did not (as the Nicene Creed required) believe in the resurrection of the body -- that he was married -- and had no intention of abandoning his wife.

<"Theophilus, to whom dogmas were instruments, winked at these errors, and transforemd Synesius into a bishop before the philosopher could make up his mind. It was typical of him that his last letter was to Hypatia, and his last prayer to Christ.

"In Syria the pagan temples were disposed of in the manner of Theophilus. Imperial edicts ordered them closed. The surviving pagans resisted the order but resigned themselves to defeat on noting the indifference with which their gods accepted destruction.

"Asiatic Christianity had saner leaders than those of Egypt. In a short life of fifty years (329?-379) the great Basil learned rhetoric under Libanius in Constantinople -- studied philosophy in Athens -- visited the anchorites of Egypt and Syria -- and rejected their introverted asceticism. He became bishop of Caesarea in Cappadocia -- organized Christianity in his country -- revised its ritual -- introeduced self-supporting cenobitic monasticism -- and drew up a monastic rule that still governs the monasteries of the Greco-Slavonic world. He advised his followers to avoid the theatrical severities of the Egyptian anchorites, but rather to serve God, health, and sanity by useful work. Tilling the fields, he thought, was an excellent prayer.

"To this day the Christian East acknowledges his pre-eminent influence."

And so, in the interest of solid organization, a confirmed pagan is named to be a Christian bishop and the opponents are completely destroyed. Sounds somewhat like the procedure used in organizing General Motors or IBM.

Robby

Bubble
September 26, 2004 - 10:14 am
Here is a site with the story of all the saints.

http://www.saintpatrickdc.org/ss/ss-index.htm

I tried to find the date for Ste Catherine but there are too many of them.



My mistake, Mal, Of course it is Saint Antoine de Padoue who helps find lost property. How could I have forgotten that! The woman looking after me as a toddler while my parents were working was always calling him to the rescue. I was hoping he was deaf because otherwise he would never have had a moment of peace. Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
September 26, 2004 - 10:26 am
Bubble!!! I had NO idea there were so many saints! And so, being the humble guy I am, I checked out "Robert." And sure enough. There I was. I'll let you people decide which one I am.

And I expect a little more respect from now on!

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
September 26, 2004 - 10:44 am
Well, Saints alive, there's a saint among us! No Saint Marilyns, but there are plenty of Saint Marys, and Marilyn, of course, is a diminutive of Mary. Whew, that's a relief!

Mal

Bubble
September 26, 2004 - 10:45 am
Robby, didn't you say you have Italian roots? then it is easy to choose surely... lol

robert b. iadeluca
September 26, 2004 - 10:47 am
Bubble!!! I had NO idea there were so many saints! And so, being the humble guy I am, I checked out "Robert." And sure enough. There I was. I'll let you people decide which one I am.

And I expect a little more respect from now on!

Robby

winsum
September 26, 2004 - 12:20 pm
how does a secular jew get sainted ...easy right here on the net see following.

 

Clair, OSB, Abbot (1/1) Clare (Blessed) Gambacorta, OP Widow (4/17)

Clare (Blessed) of Agolanti, OFM Tert., Widow (2/10) Clare (Blessed) of Pisa, OP Widow (4/17) Clare (Blessed) of Rimini, OFM Tert., Widow (2/10)



Claire

winsum
September 26, 2004 - 12:23 pm
I guess they make the best saints . . . . anyone?

Shasta Sills
September 26, 2004 - 12:28 pm
I checked to see if there was ever a Saint Shasta, and wasn't surprised that none of my sisters ever achieved sainthood. But what the heck! I've got a mountain named after me, and that's good enough.

Malryn (Mal)
September 26, 2004 - 01:02 pm
What about THAT DAISY, SHASTA? (My mother wanted to name me "Daisy". I always thought it fit me better than the name my father chose.) Saint Daisy of Apple Chill. Don't you like the ring of that?

Rich7
September 26, 2004 - 01:35 pm
There is a Shasta Lily that grows wild in the Pacific Northwest. And there is a Saint Lily (of the Mohawks), made a saint by Pope John Paul II in 1980.

robert b. iadeluca
September 26, 2004 - 01:38 pm
OK Shasta? You have been redeemed. You can remain with The Age of Faith.

Robby

Justin
September 26, 2004 - 01:41 pm
There were three Justins. One was Justin Martyr.He made a significant contribution to the shape of Christianity but the other two are unknown to me. One was called Justin the philosopher- a strange term for a Catholic saint. I know some Jesuits attempt to teach philosphy but the thing breaks down when they reach the doctrinaire parts. Then they engage in justification arguments.

robert b. iadeluca
September 26, 2004 - 01:43 pm
It would seem natural that a Justin would engage in justification.

Robby

Shasta Sills
September 26, 2004 - 02:04 pm
Justin, if you could get that Christislam religion started, maybe they would grant you sainthood. Did you get any converts so far?

Justin
September 26, 2004 - 02:36 pm
No one has volunteered to share Christislam with me. I don't understand why people have not flocked to my door. The religion is unifying. It's heritage is out of Abraham and Moses. It has something good in it for everyone. There are ready-made martyrs and saints and plenty of deities to go around. We celebrate Yom Kippur, and Christmas and Ramadan. No religious person is left out.

Éloïse De Pelteau
September 26, 2004 - 02:50 pm
And all that is in Durant? Where? but it's funny anyway.

Malryn (Mal)
September 26, 2004 - 02:52 pm
What about Chanukah, JUSTIN? You left that out.

Shasta Sills
September 26, 2004 - 02:53 pm
Eloise, if Durant had thought of it, he would have put it in.

robert b. iadeluca
September 26, 2004 - 03:06 pm
If no one objects, Durant continues:-

"In Constantinople hardly a sign of pagan worship remained. Christianity itself, however, was torn with conflict. Arianism was still powerful, new heresies were always rising, and every man had his own theology.

"Wrote Basil's brother, Gregory of Nyassa, about 380:-'This city is full of mechanics and slaves who are all of them profound theologians, and preach in the shops and the streets. If you desire a man to change a piece of silver, he informs you wherein the Son differs from the Father. If you ask the price of a loaf, you are told that the Son is inferior to the Father. And if you inquire whether the bath is ready, the answer is, the Son was made out of nothing.'

"In the reign of Theodosius I the Syrian Isaac founded the first monastery in the new capital. Similar institutions rapidly multiplied. By 400 the monks were a power and a terror in the city, playing a noisy role in the conflicts of patriarch with patriarch, and of patriarch with emperor.

"Gregory Nazianzen learned the bitterness of sectarian hatred when he accepted a call from the orthodox Christians of Constantinople to be their bishop (379). Valens had just died, but the Arians whom that Emperor had set up were still in ecclesiastical control, and held their services in St. Sophia. Gregory had to house his altar and his congregation in the home of a friend, but he called his modest church by a hopeful name -- Anastasia (Resurrection).

"He was a man of equal piety and learning. He had studied in Athens along with his countryman Basil, and only his second successor would rival his eloquence. His congregation grew and grew until it was larger than those of the official basilicas.

"On the eve of Easter, 379, a crowd of Arians attacked the Anastasia chapel with a volley of stones. Eighteen months later the orthodox emperor Theodosius led Gregory in pomp and triumph to his proper throne in St. Sophia. But ecclesiastical politics soon ended his tranquility. Jealous bishops proclaimed his appointment invalid, and ordered him to defend himself before a council.

"Too proud to fight for his see, Gregory resigned (381) and returend to Cappadocian Nazianzus, to spend the remaining eight years of his life in obscurity and peace.

"When his indifferent successor died, the imperial court invited to St. Sophia a priest of Antioch known to history as St. John Chrysostom -- of the Golden Mouth. Born (345?) of a noble family, he had imbibed rhetoric from Libanius, and had familiarized himself with pagan literature and philosophy.

"In general the Eastern prelates were more learned and disputitious than those of the West. John was a man of keen intellect and sharper temper. He disturbed his congregation by taking Christianity seriously, condemning in plain terms the injustices and immoralities of the age.

"He denounced the theater as an exhibition of lewd women, and as a school of profanity, seduction, and intrigue. He asked the opulent Christians of the capital why they spent so much of their wealth in loose living, instead of giving most of it to the poor as Christ had commanded. He wondered why some men had twenty mansions, twenty baths, a thousand slaves, doors of ivory, floors of mosaic, walls of marble, ceilings of gold.

"He threatened the rich with hell for entertaining their guests with Oriental dancing girls. He scolded his clergy for their lazy and luxurious lives, and their suspicious use of women to minister to them in their rectories. He deposed thirteen of the bishops under his jurisdiction for licentiousness or simony.

"He reproved the monks of Constantinople for being more frequently in the streets than in their cells. He practiced what he preached. The revenues of his see were spent not in the display that usually marked the Eastern bishoprics, but in the establishment of hospitals and in assistance to the poor.

"Never had Constantinople heard sermons so powerful, brilliant, and frank."

Your comments, please?

Robby

JoanK
September 26, 2004 - 05:03 pm
I, of course, was named for a saint: Joan of Arc. Never mind that my sister claims she was a schizophrenic -- she's just jealous!! unfortunately, she only had three years of sainthood before they shut her mouth by burning her (that rule doesn't apply to Seniornet does it? I've only been here a year).

winsum
September 26, 2004 - 05:05 pm
nothing much changed

robert b. iadeluca
September 26, 2004 - 05:17 pm
Here is a SHORT BIO of St. Gregory Nazianzen.

Robby

moxiect
September 26, 2004 - 06:31 pm


Bubbles, thank you for telling about St Anthony!

In my home town, we had two catholic grammar schools, which I never attended as a full time student. One was the Holy Rosary(Italian) and the other St Patricks(Irish of course). Each school was run by a different order. The boys Catholic High School was run by brothers (can't remember the order), nor do I know which order of nuns ran the Catholic High School for Girls.

I attended to Catholic Academies run by different orders. Basically we attended mass in the morning, said prayers at the start of school, learned about the Saints, said prayers in the chapel in the evening this system was the same in both Academies. One thing I noted after attending these Academies I was one grade ahead of the public school classes.

Sorry Robby, I have had a very busy day but wanted to answer Malryn's post.

Persian
September 26, 2004 - 07:16 pm
It's certainly been exciting since I visited this discussion the last time: Justin has created a new religion - Christislam - and Robby is considered a Saint. The latter we already knew!

JUSTIN - if you could get the Muslims and Christians worldwide to accept your invention (and Americans to understand it), we might have a future for our children and grandchildren with less conflict.

Justin
September 26, 2004 - 09:14 pm
Mahlia: The holy amalgam is about to launch into the world's religious battlegrounds. All that is true in religion is embedded in the new meld. You could be in on the ground floor with a charter membership. All converts are welcome. Christislam takes everybody.

Bubble
September 27, 2004 - 01:40 am
Why are you excluding us, Justin?



Isn't Bahai a composite religion taking the best from all of them? Anyway, that is what one of the Bahai here told me but I did not have time to investigate. Bubble

JoanK
September 27, 2004 - 01:45 am
MALIA: you don't dare stay away too long here: there's something new every minute. Are you all settled in your new home? How do you like it?

Bubble
September 27, 2004 - 02:09 am
Of course Joan, "la Pucelle d'Orleans" is one of the best known saintes worldwide. If you are named for her, do you have to emulate her in EVERY way? Interesting! Bubble

JoanK
September 27, 2004 - 02:27 am
Well... maybe not EVERY way.

robert b. iadeluca
September 27, 2004 - 02:48 am
St. Augustine, the Sinner

robert b. iadeluca
September 27, 2004 - 03:10 am
"The North Africa in which Augustine was born was a miscellany of breeds and creeds. Punic and Numidian blood mingled with Roman in the population, perhaps in Augustine. So many of the people spoke Punic -- the old Phoenician language of Carthage -- that Augustine as bishop appointed only priests who could speak it.

"Donatian challenged orthodoxy. Manicheism challenged both, and apparently the majority of the people were still pagan.

"Augustine's birthplace was Tagaste in Numidia. His mother, St. Monica, was a devoted Christian, whose life was almost consumed in caring and praying for her wayward son. His father was a man of narrow means and broad principles, whose infidelities were patiently accepted by Monica in the firm belief that they could not last forever.

"At twelve the boy was sent to school at Madaura and at seventeen to higher studies at Carthage. Salvian would soon describe Africa as 'the cesspool of the world' and Carthage as 'the cesspool of Africa' -- hence Monica's parting advice to her son:-

'She commanded me, and with much earnestness forewarned me, that I should not commit fornication, and especially that I should never defile any man's wife. These seemed to me no better than women's counsels, which it would be a shame for me to follow. I ran headlong with such blindness that I was ashamed among my equals to be guilty of less impudency than they were whom I heard brag mightily of their naughtiness. Yes, and so much the more boasting by how much more they had been beastly. And I took pleasure to do it, not for the pleasure of the act only, but for the praise of it also. And when I lacked opportunity to commit a wickedness that should make me as bad as the lost, I would feign myself to have done what I never did.'

"He proved an apt pupil in Latin also and in rhetoric, mathematics, music, and philosophy. He disliked Greek and never mastered it or learned its literature. But he was so fascinated by Plato that he called him a 'demigod' and did not cease to be a Platonist when he became a Christian. His pagan training in logic and philosophy prepared him to be the most subtle theologian of the church.

"Having graduated, he taught grammar at Tagaste, and then rhetoric as Carthage. Since he was now sixteen 'there was much ado to get me a wife.' However, he preferred a concubine -- a convenience sanctioned by pagan morals and Roman law. Still unbaptized, Augustine could take his morals where he pleased. Concuinage was for him a moral advance.

"He abandoned promiscuity and seems to have been faithful to his concubine until their parting in 385. In 382, still a lad of eighteen, he found himself unwillingly the father of a son, whom he called at one time 'son of my sin' but more usually Adeodatus -- gift of God. He came to love the boy tenderly and never let him go far from his side."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 27, 2004 - 03:17 am
Here is a description of NUMIDIA.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
September 27, 2004 - 04:40 am
Picture: Augustine and Monica

From the Catholic Encyclopedia: Augustine Confessions. Infancy and Boyhood

robert b. iadeluca
September 27, 2004 - 04:49 am
Mal:-The painter portrayed a very touching mother-son picture.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
September 27, 2004 - 05:28 am
Augustine's Schooldays: Painting by Gozzoli

Also by Gozzoli: Augustine sets sail for Rome, leaving his mother behind

Malryn (Mal)
September 27, 2004 - 05:40 am
The influence of St. Augustine. The link below takes you to a picture of the Cathedral-Basilica of St. Augustine, Florida where I've been to mass several times, or just went in and sat down quietly to think.

Cathedral of St. Augustine

Éloïse De Pelteau
September 27, 2004 - 06:01 am
Mal, the painting by Gozzoli takes my breath away. The Gothic (I think) architecture is a pure pleasure to see. I too when I walk by our Église Notre Dame, I always sit inside to admire the paintings and sculptures. When I travel visiting churches and cathedrals is one of my favorite activities. The saints abound in Montreal where half the city streets are named after a saint.

Personally I don't like paintings where eyes are turned upward. It doesn't touch a chord with me.

Eloïse

Éloïse De Pelteau
September 27, 2004 - 06:05 am
ÉGLISE ST AUGUSTIN DE PARIS

robert b. iadeluca
September 27, 2004 - 07:32 am
"At twenty-nine he left Carthage for the larger world of Rome. His mother, fearing that he would die unbaptized, begged him not to go, and when he persisted, besought him to take her with him. He pretended to consent, but at the dock he left her at prayer in a chapel and sailed without her.

"At Rome he taught rhetoric for a year but the students cheated him of his fees and he applied for a professorship at Milan. Symmachus examined him, approved, and sent him to Milan by state post. There his brave mother overtook him and persuaded him to listen with her to the sermons of Ambrose.

"He was moved by them but even more by the hymns the congregation sang. At the same time Monica won him over to the idea of marriage and, in effect betrothed him, now thirty-two, to a girl with more money than years. Augustine agreed to wait two years until she should be twelve. As a preliminary he sent his mistress back to Africa where she buried her grief in a nunnery.

"A few weeks of continence unnerved him and instead of marrying he took another concubine. He prayed;-'Give me chastity, but not yet!'

"Amid these diversions he found time for theology. He had begun with his mother's simple faith but had cast it off proudly at school. For nine years (374-83) he accepted Manichean dualism as the most satisfactory explanation of a world so indifferently compounded of evil and good. For a time he flirted with the skepticism of the later Academy but he was too emotional to remain long in suspended judgement.

"At Rome and Milan he studied Plato and Plotinus. Neoplatonism entered deeply into his philosophy and, through him, dominated Christian theology until Abelard. It became for Augustine the vestibule to Christianity.

"Ambrose had recommended him to read the Bible in the light of Paul's statement that 'the letter killeth but the spirit maketh to live.' Augustine found that a symbolic interpretation removed what had seemed to him the puerilities of Genesis. He read Paul's epistles, and felt that here was a man who, like himself, had passed through a thousand deoubts. In Paul's final faith there had been no mere abstract Platonic Logos but a Divine Word that had become man.

"One day as Augustne sat in a Milan garden with his friend Alypius, a voice seemed to keep ringing in his ears:-'Take up and read. Take up and read.' He opened Paul again and read:-'Not in rioting and drunkennessm, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying, but put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ and make not provision for the flesh to fulfill the lusts thereof.'

"The passage completed for Augustine a long evolution of feeling and thought. There was something infinitely warmer and deeper in this strange faith than in all the logic of philosophy.

"Christianity came to him as a profound emotional satisfaction. Surrendering the skeptism of the intellect, he found, for the first time in his life, moral stimulus and mental peace. Monica melted her heart out in grateful prayer.

"On Easter Sunday of 387 Augustine, Alypius, and Adeodatus were baptized by Ambrose with Monica standing happily by. All four resolved to go to africa and live a monastic life.

"At Ostia Monica died, confident of reunion in paradise. Arrived in Africa, Augustine sold his modest patrimony and gave the proceeds to the poor. Then he and Alypius and some friends formed a religious community and lived at Tagaste in poverty, celibacy, study, and prayer.

"So was founded (388) the Augustian order, the oldest monastic fraternity in the West."

A man filled with "a thousand doubts" ultimately creates a movement that has lasted almost two thousand years.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
September 27, 2004 - 07:51 am
Picture: Augustine the teacher, during his brief stay in Rome by Gozzoli.

Malryn (Mal)
September 27, 2004 - 07:54 am
Painting by Gozzoli: Augustine baptized by Ambrose

Malryn (Mal)
September 27, 2004 - 08:03 am
This isn't about Augustine, but it's about Christianity in this country -- an article I found in this morning's Boston Globe.

New England churches take a southern direction

winsum
September 27, 2004 - 12:18 pm
really enjoying the gozzolli images. thank you. . . what year were they painted. claire

Justin
September 27, 2004 - 12:42 pm
The Gozzolis were all done in the 1460's. Some were a little earlier. He worked mostly in fresco but also in tapestry. During 1430's and 40's he was active with Ghiberti on the Baptistry in Florence. He did many of the frescos in the Medici Palace in Florence. There is a Gozzoli tapestry in the Cloisters in NYC. It's subject is a unicorn. If you go there or live nearby do not fail to see it. It's a beautiful piece of work.

Shasta Sills
September 27, 2004 - 01:05 pm
Is the painting in #638 also a Gozzoli? The diagonal split in the composition is very striking. All dark colors below and light colors above. The mother in white to symbolize her piety and purity, and the son emerging from the darkness below him.

One of my painting teachers once told me that you cannot unbalance your color composition like this. You should distribute all colors across the canvas. But this works very well. I never paid any attention to painting teachers anyway. I always figured if they knew how to paint, they wouldn't be teaching.

Justin
September 27, 2004 - 01:07 pm
I don't recall any doubts expressed by Paul. Once he saw the light he built on it and his constructs are what we see today as Christianity. Perhaps, Augustine is talking about the prevision Saul. But even Saul was not given to doubt. He traveled from Jerusalem to Antioch just to capture some unruly Christ followers.It was during that journey that the vision came to him. Paul had a black and white personality. Augustine must have been clairvoyant to see doubt in Paul or Saul. I think he was just enjoying himself while rebelling against his momma.

I must admit, I do not understand people like Augustine. He is a bright fellow who learned to trust his intellect.He is a Platonist, an advocate of Plotinus and Plato. The concept of the Logos is part of his toolkit. Sex and it's beautiful experiences is part of him. Then, suddenly, reading Paul, he is convinced that the way of the monk is appropriate for him. He acts irresponsibly and cruel in sending his mistress, the mother of his child, to a nunnery. Then he marries a ten year old girl with money. This man is a monster with a mother complex.

Shasta Sills
September 27, 2004 - 01:24 pm
"Augustine found that a symbolic interpretation removed what had seemed to him the puerilities of Genesis." I always interpreted Genesis that way too. If you don't take it literally, it's really remarkable how close they came to scientific fact. How could they have known how the world was created? You may say that God told them, but men wrote it down; and God would only be able to penetrate the human mind to the extent that human intelligence could grasp what he told them.

This is why my atheist friends call me a phony atheist, because I refuse to believe that we atheists are absolutely right. None of our arguments seem foolproof to me. Maybe we're wrong. Does that make me an agnostic? No, because I refuse to just give up and admit that I don't know. I keep trying to figure it out.

Justin
September 27, 2004 - 01:36 pm
Shasta: Cezanne has taught us all, well, almost all, that gradations in color can be used to produce volume and depth. Diagonals aid in recession. I don't know who did 638 but I am not happy with its simplicity. It has all the earmarks of a child's holy picture. It is not a Gozzoli.

Shasta Sills
September 27, 2004 - 01:41 pm
Justin, I recently read a book called "Paul, The Mind of The Apostle," by A.N. Wilson. It presents a much more complicated Paul than the one you are describing. I am not a scholar, but the book seems to be well-researched. Paul had no doubts about his basic beliefs, but he gradually thrashed out his theology, developing a religion that was workable. I found the book fascinating.

Justin
September 27, 2004 - 01:43 pm
Shasta: Why do you want to have a label assigned to you? Stay loose. Flip-flop is a sign of intelligence.

Shasta Sills
September 27, 2004 - 01:49 pm
Justin, this is not a diagonal that recedes. It cuts across the surface of the canvas, rather than disappearing like the diagonals that create perspective.

We are posting at the same time so our conversation is somewhat jagged. I have to leave, so will talk to you later.

Malryn (Mal)
September 27, 2004 - 01:55 pm
Here's the same painting of Augustine and Monica in color. It was done by A. Sheffer.

Augustine and Monica by A. Sheffer

Justin
September 27, 2004 - 02:01 pm
Shasta: I have not read Wilson, but I have read Michael Grant's work and Hyam Maccoby also. I agree, Paul is a more complex guy than I have pictured in recent posts. However, I have posted many comments about Paul throughout this discussion and we might have to track through all to get a more complex view of the man. Caricatures are rarely enough to do a person justice. However,the current posting is not so far off, was it? He was fixed in purpose before the vision and fixed in the aftermath although gradually developing the message as he went along.

robert b. iadeluca
September 27, 2004 - 04:41 pm
St. Augustine, the Theologian

robert b. iadeluca
September 27, 2004 - 05:05 pm
"In 389 Adrodatus passed away and Augustine mourned him as bitterly as if still uncertain of the eternal bliss awaiting those who died in Christ. Work and writing were his only consolations.

"In 391 Valerius, Bishop of near-by Hippo (now Bone), asked his aid in administering the diocese, and for this purpose ordained him a priest. Valerius often yelded the pulpit to him, and Augustine's eloquence impressed the congregation even when they could not understand him. Hippo was a seaport of some 40,000 population. The Catholics had one church there, the Donatists another. The remainder of the people were Manicheans or pagans.

"The Manichean bishop, Fortunatus, had hitherto dominated the theological scene. Donatists joined Catholics in urging Augustine to meet him in debate. He consented and for two days these novel gladiators crossed words before a crowd that filled the Baths of Sosius.

"Augustine won. Fortunatus left Hippo and never returned (392).

"Four years later Valerius, alleging his age, asked the congregation to choose his successor. Augustine was unanimously elected. Though he protested and wept and begged the privilege of returning to his monastery, he was prevailed upon, and for the remaining thirty-four years of his life he was Bishop of Hippo. From this foot of earth he moved the world.

"He chose one or two deacons and brought two monks from his monastery to help him. They lived monastically and communistically in the episcopal rectory. Augustine was a bit puzzled to understand how one of his aides, at death, could leave a tidy legacy.

"All subsisted on a vegetarian diet, reserving meat for guests and the sick.

"Augustine himself is described as short and thin and never strong. He complained of a lung disorder and suffered unduly from the cold. He was a man of sensitive nerves, easily excited, of keen and somewhat morbid imagination, of subtle, and flexible intellect.

"Despite a tenacious dogmatism and some occasional intolerance, he must have had many lovable qualities. Several men who came to learn rhetoric from him accepted his lead into Christianity and Alypius followed him to the end.

"He had hardly taken his seat as bishop when he began a lifelong war against the Donatists. He challenged their leaders to public debate but few cared to accept. He invited them to friendly conferences but was met first with silence, then with insult, then with violence.

"Several Catholic bishops in North Africa were assaulted and some attempts seem to have been made upon the life of Augustine himself. However, we do not have the Donatist side of this story.

"In 411 a council called by the Emperor Honorius met at Carthage to quiet the Donatist dispute. The Donatists sent 279 bishops, the Catholics 286 -- but bishop in Africa meant little more than parish priest.

"The Emperor's legate, Marcellinus, after hearing both sides, decreed that the Donatists must hold no further meetings and must hand over all their churches to the Catholics. The Donatists replied with acts of desperate violence including, we are told, the murder of Restitutus, a priest of Hippo, and the mutilation of another member of Augustine's staff.

"Augustine urged the government to enforce its decree vigorously. He retracted his earlier view that 'no one should be coerced into the unity of Christ -- that we must fight only by arguments, and prevail only by force of reason.'

"He concluded that the Church, being the spiritual father of all, should have a parent's right to chastise an unruly son for his own good. It seemed to him better that a few Donatists should suffer 'than that all should be damned for want of coercion.'

"At the same time he pled repeatedly with the state officials not to enforce the death penalty against the heretics."

Augustine reconsidered. It was time for an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. Might made right?

Robby

Justin
September 27, 2004 - 06:23 pm
In 410 CE there were a limited number of Christian variations (heretical groups) operating. When the leading group was quashed by the emperor after a combined council found them worthy of extinction, the group resorted to violence and Augustine, Catholic Bishop of Hippo,countered using state power. It was not the first time the Catholic hierarchy chose to put down heresy with violent repression nor will it be the last time. The practice has persisted until modern times.

Today, in the US, there are hundreds of Christian variations (heretical groups) operating. The Reformation opened the door to an unbundling of enormous proportions. Oddly, the groups all claim to know the true way of the Lord and fight among themselves just as they did in 410 CE. Sometimes they resort to violence.

Because man and his brain appears in such infinite variety, I think, there will always be splinters in religion rather than an amalgam-a tree of God. Christislam is possible but only for a moment in time when it too will splinter.

Justin
September 27, 2004 - 06:28 pm
Augustine and his monkish buddies all subsisted on vegetables and reserved meat for visiting dignataries. Why? What is the connection between diet and godliness? Any clues?

JoanK
September 27, 2004 - 06:48 pm
I asked that question earlier. Many religeous people have been vegatarians. The Buddist claim that you think more spiritually when you don't eat meat. (I have known many vegatarians, including my daughter, and, while wonderful people, they are not necessarily more spiritual.)

There also is this connection with fasting that we mentioned before. Both Islam and Judaism have periods of fasting as a spiritual exercise. Many religeous mystics fast. Gandi would probably have been treated for anorexia if he had lived in the US. Caesar Chavez ruined his health fasting

I wonder if there is any physiological basis for these connections.

Persian
September 27, 2004 - 07:23 pm
JOAN - I had a memorable conversation with a 4 year old child a few years ago about why she (at her tender age) would not eat meat. She explained very succinctly that she "didn't like to eat dead things." When I asked about whether vegetables on the vine or fruit on the tree had had "a life," before they were harvested, she paused, thought for a few moments and said "I don't know for sure. But I'll ask God in my prayers tonight. If he answers, I'll let you know."

BUBBLE - going back a few posts - I think that Bahai adherents would fit in perfectly with Justin's new religion. In our Persian culture, we have many Bahai friends and they are traditionally accepting of others without judgement. Unfortunately, that is NOT always true of Muslims towards the Bahai faith.

Fifi le Beau
September 27, 2004 - 09:24 pm
Others may have had the concept of original sin, but it was Augustine who wrote the thesis that was incorporated into the church. His ideas on original sin were that it was passed along in the fluids of procreation and that sexual intercourse was venially sinful, and a child was born with sin.

Augustine is considered the father of original sin. In my opinion it is an idea that could only have been conceived by a perverted mind.

Augustine is also considered the father of the Inquisition. He writes the first Catholic justification for state persecution, to disbelieve in forced conversions is to deny the power of God; and God must whip the son he receives. per molestias eruditio (true education begins with physical abuse). It will lead to cruelty with the highest justification, and his words will bring the church along to light the bonfires that burned alive those who were different.

Augustine was a brilliant writer with much influence who let his perversions overrule logic.

Fifi

Justin
September 27, 2004 - 09:45 pm
Catholic priests and nuns find it difficult to use the words "sexual intercourse," so they have found other ways to explain original sin. Most will tell you it is the sin of Adam and Eve that is passed along to succeeding generations. The sin is inherited rather than passed along through the juices. "Passed through the juices" would be too much for these lovers of little boys to talk about.

Bubble
September 28, 2004 - 01:09 am
Joan, with a full belly one is not capable of deep thinking, more likely one would feel induced to uneasy sleep. Meat is much heavier to digest than vegetables or fruit.

I can confirm to you that after a 26 hours total fast (not even a drop of water), the mind is much sharper in noticing the smallest detail or noise around. I think that when this is done with a higher purpose in mind and not as a figure-conscious juvenile, one could get to higher planes. If not concentrating of personal discomfort, that short fast is not even noticed.

I heard all my life from this religion or that religion, that we are all sinners. Why don't I feel like a sinner? Nor a saint, BTW! Bubble

Malryn (Mal)
September 28, 2004 - 01:56 am
"There can be no sin that is not voluntary, the learned and the ignorant admit this evident truth", writes St. Augustine.

Original sin defined. The Catholic Encyclopedia

Bubble
September 28, 2004 - 02:06 am
MMMmmm Men became mortals because of Adam's sin. Women gave birth in pain because of Eve's sin? Surely God would not have created two genders if we were not supposed to make use of it. Thus is should never be considered a sin. Furthermore we are directed to take joy in all that God created, so... Bubble

Malryn (Mal)
September 28, 2004 - 02:07 am
Fasting can cause hallucinations. Once I went on an involuntary nearly total fast, because of lack of money for food, for a period of two and a half weeks. My imagination went wild, and my thinking was not in any way normal. I remember watching a TV quiz show. My mind told me all the people on it had faces of dogs, not human beings.

JUSTIN, not all priests are pedophiles.

BUBBLE, you're right about the concept of sin not being exclusive to Christianity. Isn't Yom Kippur the most holy time when Jews atone for the sins of the past year? What about the idea of sin in Hinduism and Buddhism and Islam?

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
September 28, 2004 - 02:32 am
"On the other hand, let us see what the Qur'an says about these respected prophets: (6: 84-86)

“We gave him Isaac and Jacob: All (three) We guided: And before him, We guided Noah, And among his progeny, David, Solomon, Job, Joseph, Moses, and Aaron: Thus do We reward Those who do good (84) And Zakariya and John, And Jesus and Elias: All in the ranks of the Righteous (85) And Ismail, and Elisha, and Jonas, and Lot: And to all We gave favour above the nations(86).”

"We know that Abraham’s father was a nonbeliever and God did not punish Abraham (PBUH) for his father’s grave sin. Why would God hold him responsible for his forefather's (Adam’s) sin? This is, if we assume that Adam did not repent. However, God has declared that he has repented and was granted forgiveness by Him. This is what Allah the Almighty says about Adam (PBUH): (2:37)

“ 'Then received Adam from his Lord certain words and his Lord repented him; for He Is The Oft-Repenting, The Bestower of Mercy.'(2:37)"

The Truth about Original Sin by Dr. Abdallah H. Al-Kahtany, a Muslim -- from the Sunnah Islamic website

Malryn (Mal)
September 28, 2004 - 02:44 am
Jewish, Christian and Muslim Views of Sin

robert b. iadeluca
September 28, 2004 - 02:57 am
I have rarely eaten red meat in over 25 years. I don't know if that proves anything. Now - as for fasting? You'll have to ask someone else!

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 28, 2004 - 03:15 am
"Aside from the cares of his see, Augustine lived in the Country of the Mind and labored chiefly with his pen. Almost every day he wrote a letter, whose influence is still active in Catholic theology. His sermons alone fill volumes and though some are spoiled by an artificial rhetoric of opposed and balanced clauses, and many deal with local and transient topics in a simple style adapted to his unlettered congregation, many of them rise to a noble eloquence born of mystic passion and profound belif.

"His busy mind, trained in the logic of the schools, could not be confined within the issues of his parish. In treatise after treatise he labored to reconcile with reason the doctrines of the Church that he had come to revere as the one pillar of order and decency in a ruined and riotous world.

"He knew that the Trinity was a stumbling block to the intellect. For fifteen years he worked on his most sysematic production -- The Trinitare -- struggling to find analogies in human experience for three persons in one God.

"More puzzling still -- filling all Augustine's life with wonder and debate -- was the problem of harmonizing the free will of man with the foreknowledge of God. If God is omnicient He sees the future in all details. Since God is immutable, this picture that He has of all coming events lays upon them the necessity of occurring as He has foreseen them. They are irrevocably predestined.

"Then how can man be free? Must he not do what God has foreseen? And if God has foreseen all things, He has known from all eternity the final fate of every soul that He creates.

"Why, then, should He create those that are predestined to be damned?"

When I was in high school (I seem to remember having used this analogy here before) we used to have fun with what was considered this unanswerable question. "What happens when an irresistible force meets an immovable object?" This used to take up hours of our childhood discussions and would lead to the type of arguments that only high school students can engage in. Of course, there was never any answer -- only a division into two groups, neither one of which would accept the thinking of the other.

Was that a forecast of what would happen to us as adults when some of us found ourselves in churches of different denominations? And sometimes asking unanswerable questions?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
September 28, 2004 - 04:02 am
On the Trinity by Augustine

Éloïse De Pelteau
September 28, 2004 - 05:17 am
"His sermons alone fill volumes and though some are spoiled by an artificial rhetoric of opposed and balanced clauses, and many deal with local and transient topics in a simple style adapted to his unlettered congregation, many of them rise to a noble eloquence born of mystic passion and profound belief.

Not very long ago, a few hundred years, the majority of the populace was unlettered and a simple style was necessary to drive home a belief and through expert rhetoric people can be swayed to believe the sometimes unbelievable. Whoever spoke the best got the most supporters. Knowing to read required expensive material and time taken away from tilling the soil or tending to a trade necessary to stay alive.

Only the fortunate could afford an education whereas today, 90% of the people can read and write. With the short life span the ancients lived, much of the living had to be achieved in the short span of years after reaching adulthood. If one could go and hear wisemen speak he was lucky and the words he heard stayed imprinted in the mind.

Today, it is more usual to doubt and argue about whatever we hear whether the words are wise or not. I don't know if we are the better off for it.

Eloïse

Justin
September 28, 2004 - 11:17 am
Mal; Thank you for pointing out that all priests are not pederasts. I sometimes tend to generalize,unjustifiably. The morning I wrote that, I had read in the morning paper about Bishop Dupre. His efforts to quell witnesses and to avoid trial on pederasty charges due to the statute of limitations must have irked me for a moment. It came out in my comments.

Justin
September 28, 2004 - 11:21 am
Augustine and the Church differ on Original Sin. Augustine takes the Pelsgian view that no sin can be that is not voluntary. Original sin is inherited and therefore not voluntary.

Scrawler
September 28, 2004 - 11:27 am
I always thought "sin" to mean the breaking of a religious law or a moral principle. So how can "Original Sin" be inherited?

Shasta Sills
September 28, 2004 - 01:52 pm
Oh, I like that picture even better when I see its colors! Look at those gorgeous, wicked reds. Red is the color of emotion and sin, so you can see how Augustine looks upward from his sinful condition to a spiritual life. But the artist has painted the upper regions of the soul a dead blue-gray. If spiritual existence is supposed to be superior to physical existence, the colors should be lovely and silvery and glowing. It reminds me of Milton's "Paradise Lost." He described sin with vivid imagery, but when he tried to describe the life of the angels, he made it dull and prosaic. It just goes to show that humans understand sin better than we understand spiritual perfection.

Shasta Sills
September 28, 2004 - 02:16 pm
It seems to me that the concept of original sin is the same question that we are now phrasing in different words: Are we hard-wired? Are there things wired into our genes that we can't get rid of no matter how hard we try? I think people have always struggled against traits in themselves that they really don't want or approve of, and they can't figure out why these traits are there. Did they come with the species?

Justin
September 28, 2004 - 03:25 pm
Scrawler: You are right, sin is the breaking of a religious law.That's why this concept of Original Sin is so illogical. The church says it's inherited.Augustine was not on board with the church on this one. He thought as you do. Sin is something that must be committed-voluntarily committed and since The original sin is inherited it is therefore not a sin. You, Augustine, and me, we think as the Pelasgians thought.

robert b. iadeluca
September 28, 2004 - 03:49 pm
I got to thinking about the analogy of the high school problem where the question was:-what happens when an irresistible force meets an immovable object? As youngsters we had fun with that one usually ending up with two divided sides. As an adult -- hopefully a bit more advanced -- I look at it a bit differently. I now say that it is unanswerable because it starts with two assumed premises, of which one and perhaps two are inherently false. If the force is irresistible, then the wall, by definition, is movable. If the wall can not be moved then the force, by definition, can be resisted. Both premises can not be true simultaneously.

Following this -- what if we start with two assumed premises -- that God is whole and sufficient unto Himself and that simultaneously, God is divided into three parts. If God is whole and sufficient unto Himself then, by defintion, there can be no division into a Trinity. If there is a division into three then, by definition, God is not whole unto Himself. It would appear that one, or both, of the original premises must be false.

As I recall the answer by clergymen of various denominations was that this must be accepted by Faith.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 28, 2004 - 04:34 pm
"Augustine cold be caught in conradictions and absurdities, even in morbid cruelties of thoughts. But he could not be overcome because in the end his own soul's adventures, and the passion of his nature, not any chain of reasoning, molded his theology. He knew the weakness of the intellect. It was the individual's brief experience sitting in rckless judgment upon the experience of the race. How could forty years understand forty centuries?

"Faith must precede understanding. 'Seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand' -- crede ut intelligas. The authority of the Scriptures is higher than all the efforts of the human intelligence.

"The Bible, however, need not always be taken literally. It was written to be intelligible to simple minds and had to use corporeal terms for spiritual realities.

"When interpretations differ we must rest in the decision of the Church councils, in the collective wisdom of her wisest men.

"But even faith is not enough for understanding. There must be a clean heart to let in the rays of the divinity that surrounds us. So humbled and cleansed, one may, after many years, rise to the real end and essence of religion, which is 'the possession of the living God.' 'I desire to know God and the soul. Nothing more? Nothing whatever.'

"Oriental Christianity spoke mostly of Christ. Augustine's theology is 'of the First Person.' It is of and to God the Father that he speaks and writes. He gives no description of God, for only God can know God fully. Probably 'the true God has neither sex, age, nor body.' But we can know God, in a sense intimately, through creation. Everything in the world is an infinite marvel in its organization and functioning, and would be impossible without a creative intelligence.

"The order, symmetry, and rhythm of living things proclaims a kind of Platoniuc deity, in whom beauty and wisdom are one.

"We need not believe, says Augustine, that the world was created in six days. Probably God in the beginning created only a nebulous mass (nebulosa species). But in this mass lay the seminal order, or productive capacities (radiones seminales), from which all things would develop by natural causes.

"For Augustine, as for Plato, the actual objects and events of this world pre-existed in the mind of God 'as the plan of a building is conceived by the architect before it is built.' Creation proceeeds in time according to these eternal exemnplars in the divine mind."

Your comments, please?

Robby

winsum
September 28, 2004 - 04:37 pm
intelligible to simple minds and had to use corporeal terms for spiritual realities.

pretty much says it...written for simple minds. do you see any around here? claire

robert b. iadeluca
September 28, 2004 - 04:58 pm
To me a "simple mind" is not necessarily a stupid person. There is, in my opinion, a big difference between being intelligent and educated. A simple mind, in those far off days, might very well be a person who has not had the opportunity to receive schooling or be able to read or associate with people who have had rich experiences. They may very well have ultimately learned how to think for themselves but that may have taken decades of living.

Robby

HubertPaul
September 28, 2004 - 04:59 pm
"For Augustine, as for Plato, the actual objects and events of this world pre-existed in the mind of God 'as the plan of a building is conceived by the architect before it is built.' Creation proceeeds in time according to these eternal exemnplars in the divine mind."

The following, I posted some time ago in a different discussion:

“The materialist might well be asked how it was ever possible for live entities to appear on this planet when their own science says it commenced with such fiery beginnings, such temperature as would sterilize potential cell and life upon it."

Yoga Philosophy always proclaimed the fact that there is no dead matter anywhere in the cosmos. There is only living radiance, throbbing energy, informed and controlled by INHERENT MIND and everywhere expressing the cycle of evolving life, of movement from an inferior form to a superior one and from a lesser degree of consciousness, intelligence and character to a greater one.

robert b. iadeluca
September 28, 2004 - 05:04 pm
Hubert:-I wondered where you were. Good to hear from you!

Any comments from anyone on this ARTICLE about the Power of Belief? As you react, please choose your words carefully so as not to cause any hard feelings. We can all agree to disagree with courtesy and consideration.

Robby

HubertPaul
September 28, 2004 - 05:25 pm
I like the last paragraph:"Beliefs can change. Not easily, but it can happen. Beliefs change when significant events in our lives touch our hearts. Intellectual arguments rarely change beliefs."

Of course, you have to 'believe' that your heart is 'more' than just a pump:>)

Justin
September 28, 2004 - 06:54 pm
Once someone has slipped over into the realm of faith and has come to rely upon prayer and the power of God to help them over life's hurdles, it matters little whether that person has been helped in practical terms. They have acquired a crutch to rely upon in duress and no intellectual tool can supplant their faith in the crutch. Intellectual argument is worthless and the person is lost until one's own reasoning starts them on a quest to find self-reliance.

Justin
September 28, 2004 - 07:15 pm
I once met a fellow at a veteran's reunion whom I had known slightly fifty odd years prior to the reunion. He told me he was a long haul truck driver. He often drove without a partner. He said his constant companion was Jesus. He spoke to him many times everyday. He talked over the route with Him. They worked together on plans for stops for food and rest. He discussed the outcome of a ball game he had listened to on the radio. Jesus was his buddy and he felt very close to him. The guy was obviously, very lonely. He needed a partner.

Remember the story about Harvey, the big rabbit, who accompanied his friend Joe. It's that kind of tale. But the intellect could no more convince Joe that Harvey was a figment of his imagination than I could convince my truck driver friend that he was living in a dream world nor would I try to interfere in this man's relationship with his buddy, Jesus.

Sunknow
September 28, 2004 - 11:10 pm
Justin, if I may go back a day or so, I would like to tell you something that happened in our community yesterday. I thought of you and Christislam.

From the rather ordinary, common communications that takes place at the many Ministerial Alliances in communities everywhere, two local men developed a relationship that surprised many in the community. They were the Leader of the E. TX Islamic Society and the Rabbi of Congregation Beth El. They recently announced that together they would build a house. Yesterday they had the groundbreaking for a Habitat for Humanity called "Abraham's House". It is a joint effort by the Muslim and Jewish communities to build a house for a needy Christian woman and her son. They were joined by pastors from the many, many different churches in the area, by elected officials from Washington, and from both the State, and local communities. Represented were Democratic and Republican contenders for those offices, and people of every race and religion imaginable.

It was a remarkable day, the first-ever cooperative effort between the two religious groups. It's hardly a new religion. It was said to be a time when Abraham's descendants joined hands once again.

You said the ".....chance of (Christislam) occurring is very remote". That's true. But, occasionally, remarkable things do happen. Small beginning?

Sun

robert b. iadeluca
September 29, 2004 - 02:43 am
Giant oaks from little acorns grow.

robert b. iadeluca
September 29, 2004 - 02:46 am
St. Augustine the Philosopher

robert b. iadeluca
September 29, 2004 - 03:09 am
"How shall we do justice so briefly to so powerful a personality, and so fertile a pen? Through 230 treatises he spoke his mind on almost every problem of theology and philosophy, and usually in a style warm with feeling and bright with new-coined phrases from his copious mint.

"He discussed with diffidence and subtlety the nature of time. He anticipated Descartes' 'Cogito, ergo sum'. To refute the Academics, who denied that man can be certain of anything, he argued:-'Who doubts that he lives and thinks? For if he doubts, he lives.'

"He presaged Bergson's complaint that the intellect, through long dealing with corporeal things, is a constitutional materialist. He proclaimed, like Kant, that the soul is the most directly known of all realities, and clearly stated the idealistic position -- that since matter is known only through mind, we cannot logically reduce mind to matter.

"He suggested the Schopenhauerian thesis that will, not intellect, is fundamental in man. He agreed with Schopenhauer that the world would be improved if all reproduction should cease.

"Two of his works belong to the classics of the world's literature. The Confessions (c.400) is the first and most famous of all autobiographies. It is addressed directly to God, as a 100,000-word act of contrition. It begins with the sins of his youth, tells vividly the story of his conversion, and occasionally bursts into a rhaposody of prayer.

"All confessions are camouflage, but there was in this one a sincerity that shocked the world. Even as Augustine wrote it -- forty-six and a bishop -- the old carnal ideas 'still live in my memory and rush into my thoughts; in sleep they come upon me not to delight only, but even so far as consent, and more like to the deed.' Bishops are not always so psychoanalytically frank.

"His masterpiece is the moving story of how one soul came to faith and peace and its first lines are its summary:-'Thou hast created us for Thyself, and our hearts know no rest until they repose in Thee.'

"The Confessions is poetry in prose. The City of God (413-26) is philosophy in history. When the news of Alaric's sack of Rome reached Africa, followed by thousands of desolate refugees, Augustine was stirred, like Jerome and others, by what seemed an irrational and Satanic calamity. Why should the city whose beauty and power men had built and reverenced through centuries, and now the citadel of Christendom, be surrendered by a benevolent deity to the ravages of barbarians?

"Pagans everywhere attributed the disaster to Christianity -- the ancient gods, plundered, dethroned, and proscribed, had withdrawn their protection from the Rome that under their guidance had grown and prospered for a thousand years. Many Christians were shaken in their faith.

"Augustine felt the challenge deeply. All his vast temple of theology threatened to collapse if this panic of fear were not allayed. He resolved to devote all the powers of his genius to convincing the Roman world that such catastrophes did not for a moment impugn Christianity.

"For thirteen years he labored on his book, amid a press of obligations and distrctions. He published it in piecemeal installments. The middle of it forgot the beginning and did not foresee the end. Inevitably its 1200 pages became a confused concatenation of essays on everything from the First Sin to the Last Judgment.

"Only the splendor of its style lifted it out of its chaos to the highest rank in the literature of Christian philosophy."

Many thoughts and concepts here to ponder and discuss. All confessions are camouflage?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 29, 2004 - 03:51 am
Those folks here who participated in Our Oriental Heritage (and others as well) may be interested in this ARTICLE published in this morning's NY Times.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
September 29, 2004 - 11:40 am
True confessions can't take place unless people tell the truth to themselves. That doesn't happen too often.

Mal

Bubble
September 29, 2004 - 12:20 pm
when I was born, I received from my far away grandfather such a tiny inscribed scroll of rolled gold to wear on a chain around my neck. I never wore it, my mom was afraid I could get it caught somehow. When I got sick two years later, I received another inscribed scroll to wear. I had heard about these but never saw them until I found them not long ago with some old documents in an old folder. The power of amulet is still believed in.

Scrawler
September 29, 2004 - 01:22 pm
Be careful what you believe because it's true. That's excellent advice. It reminds me of the term "blind faith." I would think if you truly believed in something that you would want to be very sure of its credibility. I would think if we are in doubt one way or the other that common sense would come into play. But I've seen too many who simply believe in something because they have been told to do so. This has always been disturbing for me.

Justin
September 29, 2004 - 02:11 pm
Sunknow: Abraham's house is just the sort of activity I have been looking to use in support of Christislam. I will document the event. Who knows, it may form part of a testament of faith in years to come.

Justin
September 29, 2004 - 04:01 pm
The Priestly Benediction is a very significant finding. While the writing of "Numbers" may not have occurred before 4th century, the material was around and in the Hebrew consciousness in the 7th century. I made a note in the margin of my copy of the O.T.

robert b. iadeluca
September 29, 2004 - 04:06 pm
"Augustine's arguments against paganism was the last rebuttal in the greatest of historic debates. Paganism survived in the moral sense, as a jouous indulgence of natural appetites. As a religion it remained only in the form of ancient rites and customs condoned, or accepted and transformed, by an often indulgent Church.

"An intimate and trustful worship of saints replaced the cult of the pagan gods and satisfied the congenial polytheism of simple or poetic minds. Statues of Isis and Horus were renamed Mary and Jesus. The Roman Lupercalia and the feast of the purification of Isis became the Feast of the Nativity. The Saturnalia were replaced by Christmas celebrations, the Floralia by Pentecost, an ancient festival of the dead by All Souls' day, the resurrection of Attis by the resurrection of Christ.

"Pagan altars were rededicated to Christian heroes. Incense, lights, flowers, processions, vestments, hymns, which had pleased the people in older cults were domesticated and cleansed in the ritual of the Church. The harsh slaughter of a living victim was sublimated in the spiritual sacrifice of the Mass.

"Augustine had protested against the adoration of saints and in terms that Voltaire might have used in dedicating his chapel at Ferney:-'Let us not treat the saints as gods. We do not wish to imitate those pagans who adore the dead. Let us not build them temples, nor raise altars to them, but with their relics let us raise an altar to the one God.'

"The Church, however, wisely acceptd the inevitable anthropomorphism of popular theology. She resisted, then used, then abused, the cult of martyrs and relics. She opposed the worship of images and icons, and warned her faithful that these should be reverenced only as symbols. But the ardor of public feeling overcame these cautions, and led to the excesses that aroused the Byzantine iconoclasts.

"The Church denounced magic, astrology, and divination, but medieval, like ancient literature, was full of them. Soon people and priests would use the sign of the cross as a magic incantation to expel or drive away demons. Exorcisms were pronounced over the candidate for baptism and total nude immerseion was required lest a devil should hide in some clothing or ornament.

"The dream cures once sought in the temples of Aesculapius could now be obtained in the sanctuary of Sts. Coismas and Damian in Rome and would soon be available at a hundred shrines. In such matters it was not the priests who corrupted the people, but the people who persuaded the priests.

"The soul of the simple man can be moved only through the senses and the imagination, by ceremony, and miracle, by myth and fear and hope. He will reject or transform any religion that does not give him these.

"It was natural that amid war and desolation, poverty and disease, a frightened people should find refuge and solace in chapels, churches, and cathedrals, in mystic lights and rejoicing bells, in processions, festivals, and colorful ritual."

It was not the priests that corrupted the people but the people who persuaded the priests. The simple man is moved only through the senses.

Robby

JoanK
September 29, 2004 - 05:09 pm
"The soul of the simple man can be moved only through the senses and the imagination, by ceremony, and miracle, by myth and fear and hope. He will reject or transform any religion that does not give him these".

Interesting. I'm trying to think of counter-examples and can't. I wonder why?

winsum
September 29, 2004 - 05:24 pm
is one who uses his perceptions to support his beliefs and those may be manipulated by ritual and tradition. rationality suffers. . . . claire

robert b. iadeluca
September 29, 2004 - 06:08 pm
"Intelligence makes clear to us the interrelationship of means and ends. But mere thinking cannot give us a sense of the ultimate and fundamental ends.

"To make clear these fundamental ends and valuations and to set them fast in the emotional life of the individual seems to me precisely the most important function which religion has to form in the social life of man."

- - - Albert Einstein

Fifi le Beau
September 29, 2004 - 07:08 pm
Christianity won out over paganism, but little changed for the pagans except the names. They simply substituted Jesus, Mary, and Christ for their old gods and brought all the trappings of pagan worship along with them to Christianity.

What would Jesus the Jew have thought of the use of pagan symbols in the new religion bearing his name? His teaching was concerned with Jewish law and thought, and his desire to bring the Jews into the fold in his own land.

Though many Jews traveled to Rome, there is no record that Jesus ever went there. There were plenty of Romans in Israel, but I know of no instance where Jesus approached them to convert them to his teachings and Jewish law.

The Jews did not seek out converts even when in pagan territory. They lived and worshipped separately in the many countries they ventured into. Jesus seemed to follow this principle, so it is doubtful he would have been familiar with the worship service of the Church in Rome.

Fifi

Éloïse De Pelteau
September 29, 2004 - 07:12 pm
Robby, why did you dig him out? I could spend hours learning his quotes by heart HERE

I love this one: "All religions, arts and sciences are branches of the same tree. All these aspirations are directed toward ennobling man's life, lifting it from the sphere of mere physical existence and leading the individual towards freedom."

Eloïse

JoanK
September 29, 2004 - 07:25 pm
How about this:

"The most incomprehensible thing about the universe is that it is comprehensible."

Justin
September 29, 2004 - 09:40 pm
Let for the moment assume that the universe is both incomprehensible and comprehensible...If the universe is incomprehensible then by definition...

Justin
September 29, 2004 - 09:44 pm
Let us assume for the moment that the universe is both incomprehensible and comprehensible.If the universe is incomprehensible then by definition...

Bubble
September 30, 2004 - 01:59 am
You are right Fifi, Jews do NOT proselyte, on the contrary, they make it very very hard to convert and become one. Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
September 30, 2004 - 02:28 am
"The reforms of the Church were greatest in the realm of sex. Paganism had tolerated the prostitute as a necessary mitigation of an arduous monogamy. The Church denounced prostitution without compromise and demanded a single standard of fidelity for both sexes in marriage.

"She did not quite succeed. She raisd the morals of the home but prostitution remained, driven into stealth and degradation. Perhaps to counterbalance a sexual instinct that had run wild, the new morality exaggerated chastity into an obsession and subordinated marriage and parentage to a lifelong virginity or celibacy as an ideal. It took the Fathers of the Church some time to realize that no society could survive on such sterile principles.

"But this puritanic reaction can be understood if we recall the licentiousness of the Roman stage --the schools of prostitution in some Greek and Oriental temples -- the widespread abortion and infanticide -- the obscene paintings on Pompeian walls -- the unnatural vice so popular in Greece and Rome -- the excesses of the early emperors -- the sensuality of the upper classes as revealed in Catullus and Martial, Tacitus and Juvenal.

"The Church finally reached a healthier view, and indeed came in time to take a lenient attitude to sins of the flesh. Meanwhile some injury was done to the conception of parentage and the family. Too many Christians of these early centuries thought that they could serve God best -- or, rather, most easily escape hell -- by abandoning their parents, mates, or children, and fleeing from the responsibilities of life in the frightened pursuit of a selfishly individual salvation.

"In paganism the family had been the social and religious unit. It was a loss tht in medieval Christianity this unit became the individual.

"Nevertheless the Church strengthened the family by surrounding marriage with solemn ceremony, and exalting it from a contract to a sacrament. By making matrimony indissoluble she raised the security and dignity of the wife and encouraged the patience that comes from hopelessness.

"For a time the status of woman was hurt by the doctrine of some Christian Fathers that woman was the origin of sin and the instrument of Satan. But some amends were made by the honors paid to the Mother of God. Having accepted marriage, the Church blessed abundant motherhood and sternly forbade abortion or infanticide. Perhaps it was to discourage these practices that her theologians damned to a limbo of eternal darkness any child that died without baptism.

"It was through the influence of the Church that Valentinian I, in 374, made infanticide a capital crime."

And so, after centuries of so-called wickedness, the pendulum swung in the other direction.

Robby

hegeso
September 30, 2004 - 08:14 am
Relics and ceremonies, I have ample of both in my private way, and think everybody has them. I have no pictures of saints, but have some of those I love and loved. I don't display them, but look at them in my private moments. I also have my ceremonies; repetitions make them ritualistic. I don't think I am different from anybody else. I am not religious in the strict sense of the word, but I think that we all have our special kinds of relics, ceremonies, and rituals.

Many thanks for the wonderful Einstein quotations.

winsum
September 30, 2004 - 10:50 am
the church tried to take it back but it stuck. . . after all the simple man thinks only with his limbic system and the church has designed its systems to thus enthrall him. . . women are still suffering from this edict from how many thousand years ago? even our legal system has not recovered from it . . . in practise if not in word.

Justin
September 30, 2004 - 11:59 am
The misguided policies of the Church must have had a severe impact on it's followers and on society. The Church's emphasis on virginity and sterility could have wiped out the race vis-a-vis the Shakers. When it drove prostitutes into the shadows it encouraged disease. When it warned that women were evil and an occasion for sin, impressionable followers deserted their families in fear of the wrath of Almighty God and fires of Hell.

The effects of these misguided policies are still with us. The Durants speak of the licentiousness of Roman sexual attitudes rather than the joys of unconstrained gender interaction. They speak of the "unnatural vice" rather than the pleasures of unconstrained gender interaction.

Make no mistake. These policies had evil consequences. Condemnation of women in this early Christian period led inexorably to acceptance of women as witches in a slightly later period when they were burned at the stake.

Shasta Sills
September 30, 2004 - 01:46 pm
Condemnation of women didn't begin with the Christians. It was always there. In the Old Testament, which was written by the Jews, not the Christians, it goes back to Genesis. But aside from religion, women have always been considered inferior to men, in all ways. Christianity just picked up on existing mores, just as it recycled the old gods.

Fifi le Beau
September 30, 2004 - 01:56 pm
Durant writes........

licentiousness of the Roman stage -- -- the unnatural vice so popular in Greece and Rome --

Prostitution and the unnatural vice (homosexuality) continued but not in the open arena. It was now hidden, not only to the public but also within the church.

Civil laws were enacted and used to punish the public, but the Church protected its own leaders from punishment with power and money. The fact that they could keep their vices hidden from the public for 1600 years plus speaks to the power and wealth of the church.

When reading about Jerome founding a monastery that housed 7,000 men, and as could be expected some soon decided that the monastery was not the life for them, and they departed. It would be natural for them to discuss the reasons for their departure and life within the monastery itself.

It wasn't long before the church decided that once you entered the monastery, you were no longer free to leave.

The hidden vices work best in the dark.

Fifi

Scrawler
September 30, 2004 - 02:37 pm
As I sit waiting to go from "Level 2" to "Level 3" (Volcano Eruption of Mt. St. Helen's) I can't help wonder about my faith or belief. Was this the way the people felt in the face of their Eruptions in the ancient world?

We have read that Durant said that many people fell on their knees and cried out to their gods when Pompeii erupted. I noticed today that churches here in Oregon are holding extra services. Have our beliefs changed so much from the ancients?

Since last Thursday we've had over 10,000 earthquakes and they are happening every minute or so and are up to 3.6 now. The ancients thought that disasters happened because their "gods" were angry. Do we feel the same? I have to wonder. The American Indians in the area used call Mt. St. Helen "the smoking mountain".

What I've found interesting is that the politicians are worried because if ash falls on Oregon that they feel they may have trouble with our emergency vehicles. I've seen pictures of the people in 1982 stalling their cars on bridges because ash got into the engines. They said last night on the news that they are thinking of closing the airports because the planes won't fly in what they call "ash zone" areas. Is this progress? In some ways did the ancient people in sandled feet have it over us?

Will, our faith save us?

Shasta Sills
September 30, 2004 - 02:47 pm
Scrawler, what I always do in an emergency is PRAY, atheist that I am. It may not help, but it can't hurt. And who knows, maybe I am wrong. I like to keep all bases covered.

robert b. iadeluca
September 30, 2004 - 04:19 pm
"The Church did not condemn slavery. Orthodox and heretic, Roman and barbarian alike assumed the institution to be natural and indestructible. A few philosophers protested, but they too had slaves.

"The legislation of the Christian emperors in this matter does not compare favorably with the laws of Antoninus Pius or Marcus Aurelius. Pagan laws condemned to slavery any free woman who married a slave. The laws of Constantine ordered the woman to be executed, and the slave to be burned alive. The Emperor Gratian decreed that a slave who accused his master of any offense except high treason to the state should be burned alive at once, without inquiry into the justice of the charge.

"But although the Church accepted slavery as part of the law of war, she did more than any other institution of the time to mitigate the evils of servitude. She proclaimed, through the Fathers, the principle that all men are by nature equal -- presumably meaning in legal and moral rights. She practiced the principle in so far as she received into her communion all ranks and classes. Although no slave could be ordained to the priesthood, the porest freedman could rise to high places in the ecclesiastical hierarchy.

"The Church repudiated the distinction made in pagan law between wrongs done to a freeman and those done to a slave. She encourged manumission, made emancipation of slaves a mode of expiating sins, or of celebrating some good fortune, or of approaching the judgment seat of God. She spent great sums freeing from slavery Christians captured in war.

"Nevertheless slavery continued throghout the Middle Ages, and died without benefit of clergy.

"The outstanding moral distinction of the Church was her extensive provision of charity. The pagan emperors had provided state funds for poor families and pagan magnates had done something for their 'clients' and the poor. But never had the world seen such a dispensation of alms as was now organized by the Church. She encouraged bequests to the poor, to be administered by her. Some abuses and malversation crept in, but that the Church carried out her obligations abundantly is attested by the jealous emulation of Julian.

"She helped widows, orphans, the sick or inform, prisoners, victims of natural catastrophes. And she frequently intervened to protect the lower orders from unusual exploitation or excessive taxation. In many cases priests, on attaining the episcopacy, gave all their property to the poor. Christian women, like Fabiola, Paula, and Melania devoted fortunes to charitable work.

"Following the example of pagan valetudinaria, the Church or her rich laymen founded public hospitals on a scale never known before. Basil established a famous hospital and the first asylum for lepers, as Caesarea in Cappadocia. Xenodochia -- refuges for wayfarers -- rose along pilgrim routes. The Council of Nicaea ordered that one should be provided in every city. Widows were enlisted to distribute charity and found in this work a new significance for their lonely lives.

"Pagans admired the steadfastness of Christians in carying for the sick in cities stricken with famine or pestilence."

Are we being too hard on the Church?

Robby

3kings
September 30, 2004 - 04:47 pm
Shasta. As you say, ..... what I always do in an emergency is PRAY, atheist that I am. It may not help, but it can't hurt. And who knows, maybe I am wrong. I like to keep all bases covered.

It has been my experience that whether one has all bases covered, or not, makes not a jot of difference. Believers and non-believers seem to be treated equally.

Is this proof of the democratic attitude of the Deity ? ( BG )++ Trevor

winsum
September 30, 2004 - 04:53 pm
robby that is retorical question I'm sure. the answer is to speak for yourself because I'm not allowed to use those words here (G) . . . . claire

robert b. iadeluca
September 30, 2004 - 05:16 pm
Claire:-Durant has been telling us about both the positive and negative aspects of the Church as it developed in the Fourth Century. Your comments about the actions of the Fathers of the Church, either pro or con, would in no way conflict with the ground rules here -- which are no prosyletizing and no comments about the beliefs of specific participants here.

Robby

Justin
September 30, 2004 - 05:45 pm
Women have been second class citizens and slaves to man in every society we have encountered here in Story of Civ. but not until 4th century Christianity were they deemed to be evil and an occasion for sin.

winsum
September 30, 2004 - 08:53 pm
robby have I done either? I do feel very strongly about the issue of the churches role in the lives of humans from the fourth century until the present. I think the church is an abomination. . . there. . is that ok? Claire

Sunknow
September 30, 2004 - 09:54 pm
I can not understand why it is so important to have constant distractions. It benefits no one and is not necessary.

Sun

robert b. iadeluca
October 1, 2004 - 03:16 am
"What did the Church do in these centuries for the minds of men? As Roman schools still existed, she did not feel it her function to promote intellectual development. She exalted feeling above intellect. In this sense Christianity was 'romantic' reaction against the 'classic' trust in reason. Rousseau was merely a lesser Augustine.

"Convinced that survival demanded organization -- that organization required agreement on basic principles and beliefs and that the vast majority of her adherents longed for authoritatively established beliefs. the Church defined her creed in unchangeable dogmas, made doubt a sin, and entered upon an unending conflict with the fluent intellect and changeable ideas of men.

"She claimed that through divine revelation she had found the answers to the old problems of origin, nature, and destiny. Wrote Lactantius (307):-'We who are instructed in the knowledge of truth by the Holy Scriptures know the beginning of the world and its end.' Tertullian had said as much a century before (197) and had suggested a cloture on philosophy. Having displaced the axis of man's concern from this world to the next, Christianity offered supernatural explanations for historical events and thereby passively discouraged the investigation of natural causes.

"Many of the advances made by Greek science through seven centuries were sacrificed to the cosmology and biology of Genesis.

"Did Christianity bring literary decline? Most of the Fathers were hostile to pagan literature as permeated with a demonic polytheism and a degrading immorality. But the greatest of the Fathers loved the classics notwithstanding and Christians like Fortunatus, Prudentius, Jerome, Sidonius, and Ansonius aspired to write verse like Virgil's or prose like Cicero's. Gregory Nazianzen, Chrysotom, Amnbrose, Jerome, and Augustine outweigh, even in a literary sense, their pagan contemporaries -- Ammianus, Symmachus, Claudian, Julian.

"After Augustine prose style decayed. Written Latin took over the rough vocabulary and careless syntax of the popular speech. Latin verse for a time deteriorated into doggerel before molding new forms into majestic hymns.

"The basic cause of cultural retrogression was not Christianity but barbarism -- not religion but war. The human inundations ruined or impoverished cities, monasteries, libraries, schools, and made impossible the life of the scholar or the scientist.

"The Roman Empire had raised science, prosperity, and power to their ancient peaks. The decay of the Empire in the West, the growth of poverty and the spread of violence, necessitated some new ideal and hope to give men consolation in their suffering and courage in their toil. An age of power gave way to an age of faith.

"Not until wealth and pride should return in the Renaissance would reason reject faith and abandon heaven for utopia. But if all utopias should brutally collapse in the changeless abuse of the weak by the strong, then men would understand why once their ancestors, in the barbarism of those early Christian centuries, turned from science, knolwledge, power and pride and took refuge for a thousand years in humble faith, hope, and charity."

War and poverty had brought people down. Going under the assumption that most people longed for authority, the Church saw the solution as strengthening her organization and turning the eyes of the people from this world to the next -- through the use of faith, helping them to exist on a daily basis in an unhappy world.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 1, 2004 - 04:44 am
"We tend to think of the rational as a higher order, but it is the emotional that marks our lives. One often learns more from ten days of agony than from ten years of contentment."

- - - Merle Shain in "Some Men are More Perfect Than Others."

Bubble
October 1, 2004 - 05:53 am
so true: personal events in our daily life have more impact and lasting effect than any great happening or tragedy in the world That would be here today, gone tomorrow and let's see what else will happens. TV and sensational titles in the papers have made us so blase.

Malryn (Mal)
October 1, 2004 - 08:01 am
I never heard of Merle Shain. Besides the fact that she wrote Self Help books, this is what I found:
"Merle Shain (1935-1989), author, was born and educated in Toronto (BA, BSW, University of Toronto, 1957, 1959), and employed as a feature writer by the 'Toronto telegram,' associate editor of 'Chatelaine' [magazine], and as a columnist by the 'Toronto sun'. She was a host of the CTV Network program, 'W5', and served for four years as a member of the board of the National Film Board of Canada. Shain was the author of 'Some men are more perfect than others,'(1973), 'When lovers are friends,' (1978) and 'Courage my love,' (1988). She died the year after Courage my Love was published."

Malryn (Mal)
October 1, 2004 - 08:24 am
Some people here seem very fond of quotes by Einstein, who was a physicist, not a philosopher. My favorite physicist was Richard Feynman, along with some others you never heard of. Here are a few things Feynman said:
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool."

"It is in the admission of ignorance and the admission of uncertainty that there is a hope for the continuous motion of human beings in some direction that doesn't get confined, permanently blocked, as it has so many times before in various periods in the history of man. "

"We are at the very beginning of time for the human race. It is not unreasonable that we grapple with problems. But there are tens of thousands of years in the future. Our responsibility is to do what we can, learn what we can, improve the solutions, and pass them on."

"You can know the name of a bird in all the languages of the world, but when you're finished, you'll know absolutely nothing whatever about the bird... So let's look at the bird and see what it's doing -- that's what counts. I learned very early the difference between knowing the name of something and knowing something. "

~Richard Feynman

Malryn (Mal)
October 1, 2004 - 08:30 am

"God was invented to explain mystery. God is always invented to explain those things that you do not understand. Now, when you finally discover how something works, you get some laws which you're taking away from God; you don't need him anymore. But you need him for the other mysteries. So therefore you leave him to create the universe because we haven't figured that out yet; you need him for understanding those things which you don't believe the laws will explain, such as consciousness, or why you only live to a certain length of time -- life and death -- stuff like that. God is always associated with those things that you do not understand. Therefore I don't think that the laws can be considered to be like God because they have been figured out. "


~Richard Feynman
(quoted by P. C. W. Davies and J. Brown in Superstrings: A Theory of Everything, p. 208.)

ALF
October 1, 2004 - 10:56 am
I've just spent the past hour catching up here Robby and am very impressed with each individual poster's thoughts. This is a superb discussion.

winsum
October 1, 2004 - 10:56 am
and this quote of yours. it's the basis of my lifes thought and work.

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool."


I think that fooling oneself for the sake of comfort has a name . . . rationalization. . . something I try to avoid and probbly behind my aversion to magical thinking which is the basis of all religion.

moxiect
October 1, 2004 - 12:25 pm


How About Shakespears' "To Thine Own Self True", doesn't that simple statement say it all?

Malryn (Mal)
October 1, 2004 - 01:07 pm
CLAIRE, I guess by now we all know what you believe. Why not open up and do as Feynman suggested and "look at the bird and see what it's doing", so it's possible to know more than just the name of the bird?

Mal

3kings
October 1, 2004 - 01:11 pm
Durant, and The Age of Faith; anyone ? == Trevor

Malryn (Mal)
October 1, 2004 - 01:30 pm
Okay, TREVOR.

It seems to me that the Church used more than faith to achieve its aims. Durant says:
"The outstanding moral distinction of the Church was her extensive provision of charity. The pagan emperors had provided state funds for poor families and pagan magnates had done something for their 'clients' and the poor. But never had the world seen such a dispensation of alms as was now organized by the Church. She encouraged bequests to the poor, to be administered by her. Some abuses and malversation crept in, but that the Church carried out her obligations abundantly is attested by the jealous emulation of Julian.

"She helped widows, orphans, the sick or inform, prisoners, victims of natural catastrophes. And she frequently intervened to protect the lower orders from unusual exploitation or excessive taxation. In many cases priests, on attaining the episcopacy, gave all their property to the poor. Christian women, like Fabiola, Paula, and Melania devoted fortunes to charitable work."
The Church still does this. If you were, or are, poor and wretched, and an institution stretches out a hand to help you, aren't you apt to think that institution is good? Aren't you apt to follow what it teaches, if then you had no food, and now your belly is full?

This was, and is, not only charitable, it's the best possible advertising the Christian (or any other) religion could have.

Mal

Shasta Sills
October 1, 2004 - 02:23 pm
Mal, did you read "Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman"? It's about some of his personal reminiscences, and one of the most entertaining things I've ever read. He was a terrific guy. Not only a genius, but a man who enjoyed every day of his life.

winsum
October 1, 2004 - 02:44 pm
it's droppomg are all over the place. it's hard to miss them . . .they get in the way of empathy for the victims. mostly that's what they are. . . . claire

and shasta, he was a great folk drummer too. . . so likeable that fella. . .I found I had two of those books, but couldn't give one to anyone I knew. so much for closed minds. .



sun. . . am I a distraction? you could always read the book by yourself and not be distracted by anyone or anything. . . is richard feynman a distraction? the point I"m trying to make is that nothing much seems to have changed in the geneeral population since the fourth century the masses still delight in violence and magic. it saddens me.

Justin
October 1, 2004 - 03:42 pm
We are, here in the fourth century, entering the "Dark Ages." The lights are going off all over Europe and parts of Asia and Africa. The lights of reason are dimming and disappearing. Durant says, "advances made over seven centuries by Greek science are sacrificed to the cosmology and biology of Genesis...The Age of Power gave way to the Age of Faith refuge for a 1000 years in faith, hope, and charity...." The Latin language decays in this period. The common vernacular takes over and reduces the quality of Latin. Reason is disappearing. Soon, the price of honest inquiry will rise to include the life of the thinker.

Justin
October 1, 2004 - 03:58 pm
Yes, indeed, Moxie. "To thine own self be true," covers the subject. However, if you try that prescription you will find it is damaging to your ego. I tried that once in a managerial seminar that my employer sponsored. The exercise lasted a few days and at the end I was a wreck. It took me a week to recover by returning to the "fool your self" school of thought. My mental health improved enormously.

robert b. iadeluca
October 1, 2004 - 04:01 pm
Durant continues. Please note the change in the GREEN quotes in the Heading.

"In Britain the large estates grew at the expense of small holdings. The free peasant was in many cases bought out, and became a tenant farmer or a proletarian in the towns. Many peasants supported the Anglo-Saxon invaders against the landed aristocracy.

"Otherwise, Roman Britain prospered. Cities multiplied and grew, wealth mounted, many homes had central heating and glass windows. Many magnates had luxurious villas. British weavers already exported those excellent woolens in which they still lead the world.

"A few Roman legions, in the third century, sufficed to mainatain external security and internal peace.

"But in the fourth and fifth centuries security was threatened on every front. On the north by the picts of Caledonia -- on the east and south by Norse and Saxon raiders -- on the west by the unsubdued Celts of Wales and the adventurous Gaels and 'Scots' of Ireland.

"In 364-7 'Scot' and Saxon coastal raids increased alarmingly. British and Gallic troops repelled them. Stilicho had to repeat the process a generation later.

"In 381 Maximus, in 407 the usurper Constantine, took from Britain, for their personal purposes, legions needed for home defense, and few of these men returned. Invaders began to pour over the frontiers. Britain appealed to Stilicho for help (400), but he was fully occupied in driving Goths and Huns from Italy and Gaul. When a further appeal was made to the Emperor Honorius he answered that the British must help themselves as best they could.

"Says Bede:-'In the year 409 the Romans ceased to rule in Britain.'

"Faced with a large-scale invasion of Picts, the British leader Vortigern invited some North German tribes to come to his help. Saxons came from the region of the Elbe, Angles from Schleswig, Jutes from Jutland.

"Tradition -- perhaps legend -- reports that the Jutes arrived in 449 under the command of two brothers suspiciously hamed Hengist and Horsa -- i.e. stallion and mare. The vigorous Germans drove back the Picts and 'Scots,' received tracts of land as reward, noted the military weakness of Britain, and sent the joyful word to the fellows at home.

"Uninvited German hordes landed on Britain's shores. They were resisted with more courage than skill. They alternately advanced and retired through a century of guerilla war. Finally the Teutons defeated the British at Deorham (577), and made themslves masters of what would later be called Angle-land -- England.

"Most Britons thereafter accepted the conquest and mingled their blood with that of the conquerors. A hardy minority retreated into the mountains of Wales and fought on. Some others crossed the Channel and gave their name to Brittany.

"The cities of Britain were ruined by the long contest. Transport was disrupted, industry decayed. Law and order languished, art hibernated, and the incipient Christianity of the island was overwhelmed by the pagan gods and customs of Germany. Britain and its language became Teutonic. Roman law and institutions disappeared. Roman municipal organization was replaced by village communities.

"A Celtic element remained in English blood, physiognomy, character, literature, and art, but remrkably little in English speech, which is now a cross between German and French."

Europe takes form. Your comments on Durant's remarks, if you will please.

Robby

JoanK
October 1, 2004 - 04:48 pm
MAL and SHASTA: I'm another Richard Feynman fan. If you want a devastating comment on bureaucracy, read his description of the panel that investigated the Challenger disaster (he was the one who discovered it was the O-rings). It's in one of his books.

robert b. iadeluca
October 1, 2004 - 05:11 pm
Anyone here interested in Durant?

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
October 1, 2004 - 05:47 pm
Yes I am, but I am tired. I like this last post very much, Angle -Land?

I knew that la Bretagne was once occupied by the British but I didn't know it was that far back in time. I have been there a long time ago. The Bretons have distinctively different features than other French. My brother-in-law was a Breton. He looked quite Irish and two of his children looked Breton also. André used to speak the language at home as a child but I couldn't detect a trace of French in his Celtic language. A lovely area of France.

Nothing beats Durant.

Eloïse

Justin
October 1, 2004 - 06:51 pm
Talk about the frying pan calling the kettle black, the English are German to the core. It is no wonder they have been quarreling over the centuries. Not only is English royalty well mixed with German royalty,(vis a vis Mountbatten etc.) but the roots of the people are German. Anglo-Saxon clearly refers to invaders from Saxony, a German province. One must go to Britainy in France to see pure Britons.

In the ninth century, the Vikings came to Britain and chose to stay. So the mix we see today is a meld of several cultures.

winsum
October 1, 2004 - 07:44 pm
my english prof using a recording of cantebury tales showed up how english as a language had grown and changed from old to middle english and saxon affected english. . . and we couldn't understand a word until the french came. he said we were speaking FRENCH. . . it's not too far off today is it?

3kings
October 1, 2004 - 09:01 pm
I don't think we use as many French (Latin ) roots as Teutonic ones. I can't claim any great knowledge of language, but my feeling is that we owe more to the Germanic than to the French.

Are there any here who can kindly correct my naive ideas on the subject ?++ Trevor

Éloïse De Pelteau
October 2, 2004 - 04:00 am
Trevor,

Héro/hero, histoire/history, honneur/honor, hôpital/hospital, héritage/heritage, hôtel/hotel, heure/hour, horrible, harmonie/harmony, hasard/hazard, horreur/horror, piano, violin, guitare/guitar, harpe/harp, clarinette/clarinet, flute, baton, ténor/tenor, basse/bass, baryton/barytone, orchestre/orchestra.

I don't know how many words, perhaps half, are derived from French. In England not many centuries ago the British Royalty spoke French at court and English was the vernacular, a common language becomes an international language. It fascinates me how languages are constantly transform themselves. In the end, isn't it always the populace who wins in war, culture, spirituality and politics?

Eloïse

robert b. iadeluca
October 2, 2004 - 04:25 am
It has seemed to me over the years that the common, sometimes what are called obscene, words in English have a Germanic heritage whereas the "fancier" lesser-used words have a Latin origin -- house/domicile, horse/equine, woman/feminine, etc. etc. Doesn't the term, vulgar, actually mean "language of the people?"

When I was in high school, I chose to learn French because "everyone" told me that learning German was hard. When I entered Germany during the war, I was amazed to see how much of the language I could discern because of its similarity to English.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 2, 2004 - 04:56 am
Here are some very interesting comments about the ANGLO-SAXON PERIOD IN ENGLAND.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 2, 2004 - 05:08 am
Here is an intriguing article about the PICTS, THE PAINTED ONES who threatened the north of Britain.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 2, 2004 - 05:59 am
Click HERE to learn about the Norse.

Robby

winsum
October 2, 2004 - 09:27 am
THREE NEW SITES TO LOOK AT . .. YUMMY !. . . CLAIRE

winsum
October 2, 2004 - 09:31 am
the norse site is unreadable. yellow on white even when selected and highlighted. . . copied to simpletext and reproduced here as follows:



Who were the Norse and Germanic people?



Was there any historical connection to Norse myths?



Sources for Norse myths

Who were the Norse and Germanic people?

The name Norse referred to people and language of the ancient Scandinavians (Norwegians, Swedish, Danish, and Icelandic). Technically, the word Norse means Norwegian, but it loosely included the Icelanders, Swedes, and the Danes.

Scandinavian consisted of part of the Germanic people and language. Some scholars and historians believed that all Germanic tribes originated from Scandinavian Peninsula (Sweden and Norway) and Jutland (Denmark).

The Romans first encountered Germans in the late 2nd century BC. The Teutones and Cimbri were Germanic tribes from Jutland (Denmark), migrating southward. The mighty Roman armies were badly mauled by the Germans at Noreia, north of the Alps, in 113 BC; and later at Arausio (Orange), southern Gaul (France), in 105 BC. The Romans under its general Gaius Marius finally defeated the Teutones and Ambrones, at at Aquae Sextiae (modern Aix-en-Provence) in 102 and then the Cimbri at Vercellae in 101 BC.

Since the ancient Germanic people left no written records, we had to heavily rely on classical Greek and Roman historians, as sources of information. Of course, we also depend upon archaeology as well. (Oh, sorry about using the "we" so freely, I am not an archaeologist.)

Other Germanic tribes began moving south into central Europe, often driving the Celtic people further south and west towards the Roman empire.

Julius Caesar encountered the various Germanic tribes during his campaigns in Gaul (modern France and Belgium), in the mid-1st century BC. Caesar tried to keep the Germans east of the Rhine River. Sometimes Caesar fought these Germanic tribes; at other times he enlisted them in his army, serving as cavalry. Caesar, who wrote about his campaigns in his memoirs, managed to distinguish the Germans from Celts. He described the Germans as having towering physique and belonged to warlike society. He briefly touched on Germanic religions, comparing the Germanic deities with those of the Roman, but using Roman names, such as Mercury and Mars.

Tacitus, Roman historian of 1st century AD, gave better description of the Germanic people and their society. Tacitus had also distinguished and compared their deities with Roman deities, also giving them Roman name.

Tacitus had called those who lived in ancient Sweden as the Suiones. The Roman knowlegde of the region were gained from trade link. According to Tacitus, the historian had identified a number of tribes that had left the Scandinavain Peninsula before his time: Burgundians, Gepidae, Goths, Rugii, Vandals, and several others. Some of these migrating tribes, particularly the Goths, would a great impact on the collapse of the Western Roman Empire in the succeeding centuries.

Throughout the 1st and 2nd century AD, the Romans tried to keep the Germans east of the Rhine and north of the Danube, with a mixture of successes and failures. However, in the third and fourth century, new Germanic tribes caused considerable strain to the Roman military and empire. The Germanic people were pressured into migrating further south and west into Europe, by the Huns, a Turkic nomad people from the steppes of Central Asia. The Huns started migrating westward, driving the Germanic people from their home in Eastern Europe.

The Goths were a Germanic tribe from Scandinvia before moving to Poland, during the 1st century AD. The Goths migrated to a new homes, dividing the tribe into two, with the Visigoths moving to the mouth of the Danube (Romania), while the Ostrogoths moved to north shore of Black Sea in modern Ukraine.

During the late fourth and fifth century AD, the Great Migration, the Huns pushed westward into Europe, forcing the Germanic tribes to also migrate into Western Europe. The Visigoths under the leadership of Alaric, moved to as far southern Italy, sacking Rome after short siege, as well as travelling to Gaul (France) and Spain. While the Ostrogoths migrated to northern Italy.

Such was the perilous state of the Western Empire that in AD 410, the Emperor Honorius gave order for legions to abandon their post in the province of Britannia, leaving Britain defenceless.

The Burgundians may have also come from Scandinavia, on the southern shore of Baltic Sea. They may have originally lived on the island of Bornholm, before migrating to valley of Vistula River. Then in AD 413, the Burgundians arrived in the area around the Rhine, establishing their capital in Worms, which was originally called Borbetomagus by the Celts and Civitas Vangionum by the Romans.

Eventually the Huns established a large empire north of the Danube. The first time the Romans encountered the Hunnish warriors, they inspired feared, because of their skills in horsemanship and their accuracy with archery. At first, the Huns served as mercenaries in the Roman armies of both the Eastern and Western Empires.

A single ruler, named Rua, managed to gain control of the various clans of the Huns in AD 432, but he died two years later. Attila and Bleda, Rua's nephews, ruled jointly in AD 434.

In AD 441 when the Eastern Roman Empire didn't honour their treaty with Attila, to pay tributes in gold, Attila and his Hunnish army raided into the Eastern Roman Empire, devastating vast amount of territories.

Attila became the sole ruler of the Hunnish empire, after he murdered his brother Bleda, in AD 445. The Huns were known for their skills in horsemanship and their brutality in warfare.

The Roman general, named Flavius Aëtius, serving the Western Roman Emperor, Valentinian III, used the Hunnish mercenaries to destroy the Burgundian kingdom at Worms, in AD 437. The Burgundian king, Guntharius, was killed in the fighting.

In AD 446, the people of Roman Britain gave one last appeal to Aetius, but no aid came to them, because the empire was threatening to collapse from the onslaughter of the Huns. In AD 451, Aetius led the mixed armies of Romans, Visigoths and Burgundians. They fought in a great Battle of Chalons, defeating Attila.

Though, the Hunnish Empire under Attila collapsed at his death (AD 453), the western Roman Empire was seriously weakened. The Roman army lacked sufficient strength to defend themselves against various Germanic tribes.

Rome finally fell in AD 476, when the Romano-German commander Odoacer (obviously an Ostrogoth), seized power, and named himself king of Italy. With the collapsed of the Western Roman Empire, Western Europe fell under the shadow of the Dark Age.

In AD 493, another Ostrogoth leader, named Theodoric the Great, deposed Odoacer and claimed the kingdom of Italy as his own kingdom.

Claire

robert b. iadeluca
October 2, 2004 - 09:57 am
Sorry about that, Claire. Sometimes those links do use text which is difficult to read. Thank you for your help.

Robby

winsum
October 2, 2004 - 10:22 am
this is a really beautiful site (sight also) I especially liked the part on symbles (animals) becasue the artifacts are so well designed and beautiful. .. . the "heathens" were wonderful artisans. . . . claire

Jan Sand
October 2, 2004 - 10:40 am
This is an unorthodox use of the site and I apologise but there is no way for me to e-mail Claire as her e-mail address is not functional for me so I cannot answer her messages. I sincerely am sorry for misusing the site in this way but I have no alternative.

Jan Sand

winsum
October 2, 2004 - 11:24 am
to anyone who has been trying to e-mail me. I think I"ve fixed it, but if not don't use the reply button, make a new message. apologies for misuse of the site, but my friends are here. . .claire

robert b. iadeluca
October 2, 2004 - 11:25 am
What are friends for?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 2, 2004 - 11:37 am
Here is an EXCELLENT MAP OF ENGLAND IN FOURTH CENTURY, giving the Latin names of the towns then and their English names now.

Note Hadrian's wall.

Allow time for downloading and scroll both vertically and horizontally.

Robby

winsum
October 2, 2004 - 01:13 pm
is huge. . . .I shrank it down in photoshop and will send it to robby to post in the heading if he wants to. . . anyone who wants to see it large can use the magnifyer in their graphics or whatever lets you blow it up. . . claire

actually zippy images came to the rescue try this link for a smaller map.

http://www.zippyimages.com/116588.html

winsum
October 2, 2004 - 01:26 pm


http://www.zippyimages.com



use the first (top) address that they give you. brouse will take you to your own hard disk where you select an image smaller than one mg. . . and then hit upload . theywill give you a couple of choices. take the first one and try it to see if it works. then copy the url and use it here or where ever you need it to post a hot link to an image. . . . claire

robert b. iadeluca
October 2, 2004 - 01:31 pm
Claire:-There would be no point in posting it in the Heading as we will not be staying with Britain. But if you are able to post a link which would lead us to a smaller map, that would be fine. The advantage of a larger map where one can scroll vertically or horizontally is the ability to read the names of the towns clearly.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 2, 2004 - 01:50 pm
"If we would feel the fever of those bitter days, we must turn from history to the legends of Arthur and his knights, and their mighty blows to 'break the heathen and uphold the Christ.'

"St. Gildas, a Welsh monk, in a strange book, half history and half sermon, On the Destruction of Britain (546?), mentions a 'siege of Mons Badonicus' in these wars.

"Nennius, a later British historian (c.796), tells of twelve battles that Arthur fought, the last at Mt. Badon near Bath.

"Geoffrey of Monmouth (1100?-54) provides romantic details:-how Arthur succeeded his father Uther Pendragon as king of Britain -- opposed the invading Saxons -- conquered Ireland, Iceland, Norway, and Gaul -- besieged Paris in 505 -- drove the Romans out of Britain -- suppressed at great sacrifice of his men the rebellion of his nephew Modred -- killed him in battle at Winchester -- was himself mortally wounded there -- and died 'in the 542nd year of our Lord's incarnation.'"

Is there anyone of us who NEVER heard of King Arthur? How powerful these legends are. But are they legends? How much truth lies within them?

Robby

winsum
October 2, 2004 - 02:03 pm
as for truth and legend. look what happened to the story of JESUS. . . any extraordinary individual attrracts a personal history . . . claire

robert b. iadeluca
October 2, 2004 - 04:19 pm
Was there a real KING ARTHUR back there in the Third Century? Read the fascinating article in this link. Here is a brief quote:-"Beneath all the superfluous tales, there still remains a trace of a concrete individual, connected with a specific place and time. This is the figure scholastic minds have attempted to uncover."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 2, 2004 - 04:31 pm
Prior to my crossing the English Channel during WWII, I was temporarily stationed in Somerset, specifically near the small community of Yeovil. A British lass (as the expression goes) and I had a brief romantic interlude -- further details are not germane to the topic of this discussion -- and in a serious moment, she told me that that was the home stamping grounds of King Arthur. I often wondered if this was just a local myth until I read this LINK and now realize that she was not only a buxom lass (there I go again) but was scholarly as well.

Robby

winsum
October 2, 2004 - 04:47 pm
robby it looks like there's life in the old boy yet . . . at eighty four ? or just wishful thinking. . kidding

Persian
October 2, 2004 - 06:40 pm
Is there anyone of us who NEVER heard of King Arthur?

ROBBY - perhaps not in this discussion or the West, but what about the rest of the world?

hegeso
October 2, 2004 - 06:44 pm
I believe there really existed somebody whom we call Arthur, as I believe that there was also an Odysseus, etc. These figures changed little by little into legends and myths, and the real characters are difficult or impossible to decipher. I read somewhere, unfortunately I don't remember where, that the name Arthur came from Arcturus, whose orbit was circular, and that might be the origin of the so-called round table of Arthur's knights.

hegeso
October 2, 2004 - 06:48 pm
One more post, with my apologies. The quotation "to your own self be true" is beautiful and wise, but unfortunately it has very little too do with what Shakespeare meant. These words were taken from Polonius's speech, instructing his son how to behave, and the continuation of the speech shows exactly how not to be true to his own self. This quotation was torn out of context. Shakespeare's intent was sarcastic. I am sorry if I caused any disappointment.

Justin
October 2, 2004 - 07:25 pm
Hegeso: No loss. The phrase is useful regardless of Shakespeare's intent. Polonius and his brood failed to profit from the advice.

winsum
October 2, 2004 - 07:36 pm
keep us on the straight and narrow. . . with your background in literature. . . you can. . (S) claire

moxiect
October 2, 2004 - 09:00 pm


hegeso, thank you, I learned something new every day.

Bubble
October 3, 2004 - 01:19 am
Mahlia, even I as a teenager in Congo-Zaire knew and was fascinated about King Arthur. In Europe too he is a familiar figure. Here, among Israeli locals, I am not sure I can say the same... What about Egypt?

I was surprised to see there are even science fiction books taking the theme of King Arthur and his round table knights as heroes. Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
October 3, 2004 - 04:15 am
"William of Malmesbury (1090?-1143) informs us that:-

'When Vortimer (Vortigern's brother) died, the strength of the Britons decayed. They would soon have perished altogether had not Ambrosius, the sole survivor of the Romans quelled the presmptuous barbarians with the powerful aid of the warlike Arthur. Arthur long upheld the sinking state and roused the broken spirit of his countrymen to war. Finally, at Mt. Badon, relying on an image of the Virgin which he had affixed to his armor, he engaged 900 of the enemy single-handed, and dispersed them with incredible slaughter.'

"Let us agree that it is incredible. We must be content with accepting Arthur as in essentials a vague but historical figure of the sixth century, probably not a saint, probably not a king.

"The rest we must resign to Chretien of Troyes, the delectable Malory, and the chaste Tennyson."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 3, 2004 - 04:26 am
Here in simple language is the "LEGEND" OF KING ARTHUR. According to this link his story has been published in many languages.

Robby

Bubble
October 3, 2004 - 04:37 am
I would like one wish to come true: be able to go back in time for 24H to one of those fortified castles of the Middle Age, and sit there, in the big room, to listen to those errant troubadours reciting the prowesses of King Arthur and his knights. Oh to relive that atmosphere, even with the uncomfort of drafts and smelly bodies!

robert b. iadeluca
October 3, 2004 - 04:38 am
Here in simple language is the "LEGEND" OF KING ARTHUR. According to this link his story has been published in many languages.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 3, 2004 - 04:40 am
Here is a portion of IDYLLS OF THE KING BY TENNYSON which, as best as I can see, is a story of a religious war.

Robby

Bubble
October 3, 2004 - 04:54 am
October 2, 2004 - From: "Moshe Reiss" <moshreis@netvision.net.il>

I have added to my website "http//www:moshereiss.org" (in my book on "Islam and the West') a chapter on 'Suicide Bombing' and a chapter on 'The Qur'an' that emphasizes its comparison to the Hebrew and Christian scriptures.

In my previous update in August I had noted my addition of chapter 5 'Shi'ite Islam', a discussion of Iran and the revolution created by Ayatollah Khomeini. The chapter discusses the different theologies of Sunni versus Shi'ite Islam and the different Shi'ite theologies between Iran and Iraq. Due to some problems in my website that was not included until recently; similarly with the expansion in chapter 1, the 'Introduction,' by attempting to develop a theory of Supersessionism. and in chapter 2 'Clash of Civilizations or Religions', by expanding my discussion of Modernity and adding some aspects of post-modernism.

In my concluding chapter (not yet written) I will attempt to make a distinction between Islamism or Radical Fundamentalist Islam and Jihadism or Violent Fundamentalism. All of the three monotheistic religions have fundamentalists who believe their version of the Truth is absolute but all do not resort to violence to enforce their ideologies.

I have also added a section including over twenty articles (about one half have been published) on the Hebrew Bible.

Your comments would be greatly appreciated.

Shalom.

Moshe

robert b. iadeluca
October 3, 2004 - 06:07 am
Bubble:-I am sure we will have many comments on this topic when we get to the point in The Age of Faith where we are discussing Islam.

Durant now moves on from England to Ireland.

"The Irish believe -- and we cannot gainsay them -- that their island of 'mists and mellow fruitfulness' was first peopled by Greeks and Seythians a thousand or more years before Christ, and that their early chieftains -- Cuchalain, Conor, Conall -- were sons of God.

"Hamileo, the Phoenician explorer, touched Ireland about 510 B.C. and described it as 'populous and fertile.' Perhaps in the fifth century before Christ some Celtic adventurers from Gaul or Britain or both crossed into Ireland and conquered the natives, of whom we know nothing.

"The Celts apparently brought with them the iron culture of Hallstatt and a strong kinship organization that made the individual too proud of his clan to let him form a stable state. Clan fought clan, kingdom fought kingdom, for a thousand years. Between such wars the members of a clan fought one another. When they died, good Irishmen, before St. Patrick came, were buried upright ready for battle, with faces turned toward their foes.

"Most of the kings died in battle, or by assassination. Perhaps out of eugenic obligation, perhaps as vicars of gods who required first fruits, these ancient kings, according to Irish tradition, had the right to deflower every bride before yielding her to her husband. King Conchobar was praised for his especial devotion to this duty.

"Each clan kept a record of its members and their genealogy, its kings and battles and antiquities 'from the beginning of the world.'

"The Celts established themselves as a ruling class and distributed their clans in five kingdoms:-Ulster, North Leinster, South Leinster, Munster, Connaught. Each of the five kings were sovereign, but all the clans accepted Tara, in Meath, as the national capital. There each king was crowned. There, at the outset of his reign, he convened the Feis or conventation of the notables of all Ireland to pass legislation binding on all the kingdoms to correct and record the clan genealogies, and to register these in the national archives.

"To house this assembly King Cormac mac Airr, in the third century, built a great hall, whose foundations can still be seen. A provincial council -- the Aonach, or Fair -- met annually or triennially in the capital of each kingdom, legislated for its area, imposed taxes, and served as a district court. Games and contests followed these conventions. Music, song, jugglery, farces, story telling, poetry recitals, and many marriages brightened the occasion, and a lage part of the population shared in the festivity. From this distance, which lends enchantment to the view, such a reconciliation of central governmentt and local freedom seems almost ideal.

"The Feis continued until 560 -- the Aonach until 1168."

Any comments about Ireland?

Robby

Rich7
October 3, 2004 - 09:01 am
In addition the the English and French versions, the people of what is now Germany had their own piece of the Arthurian legend and the search for the Holy Grail. The story of Parzival, attributed to Wolfram von Eschenbach is the story of a German knight who becomes one of Arthur's knights in the Grail search.

Parzival's son was Lohengrin, a legend of his own.

How did the Arthurian story cross so many cultures and languages?

Maybe because it has a bit of truth in it?

Rich

Rich7
October 3, 2004 - 09:36 am
"Clan fought clan, kingdom fought kingdom." The Irish love a good fight.

One is reminded of the words of C. K. Chesterton describing the Irish: "All their wars are merry and their songs are sad."

Rich

robert b. iadeluca
October 3, 2004 - 09:41 am
Here is the story of PARZIVAL mentioned by Rich. The article says that:-'Parzival is a Grail romance, the earliest complete Grail romance in European literature.'

Robby

Bubble
October 3, 2004 - 09:48 am
Isn't Avalon linked with the sinking of the Atlantide?

robert b. iadeluca
October 3, 2004 - 09:51 am
Here is the story of PARZIVAL mentioned by Rich. The article says that:-'Parzival is a Grail romance, the earliest complete Grail romance in European literature.'

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 3, 2004 - 09:54 am
Durant is currently showing us how "Europe Takes Form." As we leave the topic of King Arthur, this LINK shows us how the story of the Holy Grail was told in English, Welsh, French, German and other languages. Perhaps this helps us to understand the power of literature in uniting populations.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 3, 2004 - 10:11 am
This LINK tells us of the travels of Himilco, the Phoenician explorer, and ancient Greeks and Romans to Ireland.

Robby

winsum
October 3, 2004 - 11:30 am
is very different from any other that I know of., . mixelidian mode or similar it has a minor tone to it. I collect it, currently four cd's. . . muchof our music is based on it but sung in our more familiar mode. . . .,claireb

robert b. iadeluca
October 3, 2004 - 11:57 am
"The first character whom we may confidently count as historical is Tuathal, who ruled Leinster and Meath about A.D. 160.

"King Niall (c.358) invaded Wales and carried off immense booty, raided Gaul, and was killed (by an Irishman) on the river Loire.

"From him descended most of the later Irish kings (O'Neills). In the fifth year of the reign of his son Laeghaire (Leary), St. Patrick came to Ireland. Before this time the Irish had developed an alphabet of straight lines in various combinations. They had an extensive literature of poetry and legend, transmitted orally. They had done good work in pottery, bronze, and gold.

"Their religion was an animistic polytheism, which worshiped sun and moon and divers natural objects, and peopled a thousand spots in Ireland with fairies, demons, and elves. A priestly clan of white-robed druids practiced divination -- ruled sun and winds with magic wands and wheels -- caused magic showers and fires -- memorized and handed down the chronicles and poetry of the tribe -- studied the stars -- educated the young -- counseled the kings -- acted as judges -- formulated laws -- and sacrificed to the gods from altars in the open air.

"Among the sacred idols was a gold-covered image called the Crom Cruach. This was the god of all the Irish clans. To him, appaarently, sacrifice was offered of the first-born child in every family -- perhaps as a check on excessive population. The people believed in reincarnation, but they also dreamed of a heavenly isle across the sea, 'where there is no wailing or treachery, nothing rough or harsh, but sweet music striking upon the ear -- a beauty of a wondrous land, whose view is a fair country, incomparable in its haze.'

"A story told how Prince Conall, moved by such descriptions, embarked in a boat of pearl and set out to find this happy land."

Robby

Shasta Sills
October 3, 2004 - 01:59 pm
Since I'm Irish, I suppose I should say something about the Irish; but I've never had much sympathy for all their fighting. I must remember to tell my family that when they bury me, there will be no need to bury me upright and ready for battle, because I'm not going to fight any of their battles.

robert b. iadeluca
October 3, 2004 - 02:03 pm
That sounded like a pretty belligerent statement, Shasta.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
October 3, 2004 - 02:11 pm
Crom cruach

robert b. iadeluca
October 3, 2004 - 02:14 pm
"Christianity had come to Ireland a generation or more before Patrick. An old chronicle, confirmed by Bede, writes, under the year 431:- 'Palladius is ordained by Pope Celestine, and is sent as their first bishoop to the Irish believers in Christ.'

"Palladius, however, died within the year. The honor of making Ireland unalterably Catholic fell to her patron saint.

"He was born in the village of Bonnaventa in western England, of a middle class family, about 389. As the son of a Roman citizen, he was given a Roman name, Patricius. He received only a modest education, and apologized for his rusticitas, but he studied the Bible so faithfully that he could quote it from memory to almost any purpose.

"At sixteen he was captured by 'Scot' (Irish) raiders and taken to Ireland, where for six years he served as a herder of pigs. In those lonely hours 'conversion' came to him. He passed from religious indifference to intense piety. He describes himself as rising every day before dawn to go out and pray in whatever weather -- hail or rain or snow.

"At last he escaped, found his way to the sea, was picked up, desolate, by sailors and was carried to Gaul, perhaps to Italy. He worked his way back to England, rejoined his parents, and lived with them a few years.

"But something called him back to Ireland -- perhaps some memory of its rural loveliness, or the hearty kindliness of its people. He interpreted the feeling as a divine message, a call to convert the Irish to Christianity. He went to Lerins and Auxerre, studied for the priesthood, and was ordained.

"When news reached Auxerre that Palladius was dead, Patrick was made a bishop, dowered with relics of Peter, and Paul, and sent to Ireland (432).

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
October 3, 2004 - 08:00 pm
Who was St. Patrick? The History Channel

Malryn (Mal)
October 3, 2004 - 11:02 pm
On reading the pages I posted earlier about St. Patrick on the History Channel site, I see that he had visions which led him to become a missionary. It's said that Constantine had a vision which led him to convert to Christianity. Have such visions taken place before in history? Are they exclusive to this religion? Are these really visions, or are they intellectual revelations? How much stock should we put in them?

Mal

JoanK
October 3, 2004 - 11:09 pm
Many of the Christian saints and prophets had visions. I doubt they are exclusive to Christianity. I think Buddha had. Mohammad too I think. What you make of them is another question.

Persian
October 3, 2004 - 11:09 pm
My family heritage also includes Irish ancestors - their family name is Brennan. In this weekend's PARADE Magazine, James Webb (former Secretary of the Navy)writes of the important (but little known), history of the Scots and Irish in the USA, especially those who immigrated to the Southern and Central States. Not everyone was a Kennedy or Kerry, but they certainly did bring with them a "hearty kindliness of their people" (of which Duran writes) and the love of a good story and willingness to fight. The Irish have always been clannish and independent. But then they wouldn't be Irish if they weren't!

Malryn (Mal)
October 3, 2004 - 11:54 pm
JOAN, you stay up too late. You, too, MAHLIA, over there in Charlotte. Funny to think you're so near and still so far.

My Florida son has visions. He also has schizophrenia. I hear "visions" and antennae go up. Not all these people of the past were as looney as my son can be, though. That's a loving descripton, if you don't realize it.

No, I think some of these historical folks had revelations about their own personal lives which they transferred to humanity as they knew it. Others were sick in the way my son is. Trouble is some people believe these things and base their faith on them.

Am I able to close my mind to this and dismiss these visionaries as quacks? No. But they don't fit into my own particular frame of reference.

What about Muhammed? Didn't he have visions? Sure he did.

Does a scientist have visions that lead him to answers of mathematical or quantum mechanical questions? I never knew one that did, but guess I'll have to find out. It bothers my mind to think major movements and decisions are based on some kind of second sight clairvoyance, though. Maybe when a light goes on in the heads of some people they call it a vision. I always called it a personal revelation and didn't try to persuade anyone that what I'd concluded was right.

Mal

JoanK
October 4, 2004 - 12:01 am
You're right, I stay up too late -- I can't sleep. How about you?

Malryn (Mal)
October 4, 2004 - 12:04 am
Not tonight, JOAN. There's an idea rolling around in my head about the plot for a novel. What's your excuse, and does it have anything to do with visions? Or are wheelchaired people fated to be this way? Where's BUBBLE? With her and one more we'd have four for bridge.

Mal

JoanK
October 4, 2004 - 12:07 am
No visions. I can't blame my wheelchair either -- it's asleep. I wish I could say I was having brilliant thoughts like you at least.

Malryn (Mal)
October 4, 2004 - 12:09 am
Did you hear me just then? My cat did. You made me laugh hard.

Mal

JoanK
October 4, 2004 - 12:20 am
Great. I've accomplished something tonight. On that note, I'm going to try to put myself to sleep. Good night.

Persian
October 4, 2004 - 01:34 am
I'm glad to know that I'm not the only one who does not sleep well each night. My excuse is that I have a son in a world region 8 1/2 hours ahead of our local time and a husband whose local time in Egypt is 6 hours ahead of ours. Both seem to think that "call home" means anytime. And given their respective situations in the world, I don't mind losing the sleep. I've always been a night person anyway and naps are wonderfully refreshing.

MAL - I'm going to come tap on your window one night and we can visit. When we relocated from Maryland, I waved to you as we drove past. But since I was driving the moving van - my husband refused to do so! - it was just a quick flick of the wrist.

Bubble
October 4, 2004 - 02:05 am
Did not sleep well either, pains prevented my doing so. I am now pondering of visions: maybe those biblical dreams can be called visions? Must we take visions as God inspired, or are they just our mind realizing something essential when it is at rest with the daily routine of survival?

I don't remember having had a vision, unless you could call that when someone appears in front of you -at exactly the same time - to say goodbye while unknowingly he is dieing on the other side of the planet.

It takes faith into oneself to believe in visions. I would have kept it quiet and accused my fertile imagination. There were so many visions in those times, is it contagious? It feels similar to the sightings of UFO: when there are two or three witnesses reports, you suddenly get so many more people coming forward with their own experiences too. Bubble

Éloïse De Pelteau
October 4, 2004 - 02:52 am
Bubble, I will join the night owls here to say that I never had visions. I had a dream about my husband, the night be died in an accident, that he was in grave danger and since then I don't remember my dreams any more, but that was a dream not a vision. If people say they had a vision, so be it, whatever they had could be called anything at all. In the opera Herodiade a priest recalls the face of his beloved and sings the famous aria, Vision fugitive, it was a recollection of the woman he loved. A word can have several interpretations and how I perceive it is not necessarily the same way as others perceive it.

Mahlia, is there anything you can't do? You drove the moving van, where did you learn to drive a truck? I just can't picture you at the wheel of such a vehicle but with your travels in Asia, I guess you have to be a multi-tasked person.

I guess an 8 hours sleep a day is not that necessary at our age.

Eloïse

robert b. iadeluca
October 4, 2004 - 03:56 am
Well, two comments here from this day-oriented clinical psychologist who just woke up:-

1 - The brain works in marvelous ways. I have learned to say that "nothing is impossible."
2 - Measure your health by whether you feel rested when you get up - not the hours of sleep you had. There are too many variables - age, depth of sleep, etc.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 4, 2004 - 04:15 am
Durant continues to tell us about Ireland.

"The Druids opposed Patrick and showed the people their magic. Patrick met them with the formulas of the exorcists -- a minor clerical order -- whom he had brought with him to cast out demons.

"In the Confessions that he wrote in his old age Patrick tells of the perils he encountered in his work. Twelve times he was in danger. Once he and his companions were seized, held captive a fortnight, and threatened with death. Some friends persuaded the captors to set them free.

"Pious tradition tells a hundred fascinating stories of his miracles. Says Nennius:-'He gave sight to the blind and hearing to the deaf, cleansed the lepers, cast out devils, redeemed captives, raised nine perons from the dead, and wrote 365 books.'

"But probably it was Patrick's character, rather than his wonders, that converted the Irish -- the undoubting confidence of his belief and the passionate persistence of his work. He was not a patient man. He could dispense maledictions and benedictions with equal readiness but even this proud dogmatism convinced.

"He ordained priests, built churches, established monasteries and nunneries, and left strong spiritual garrisons to guard his conquests at every turn. He made it seem a supreme adventure to enter the ecclesiastical state. He gathered about him men and women of courage and devotion who endured every privation to spread the good news that man was redeemed.

"He did not convert all Ireland. Some pockets of paganism and its poetry survived and leave traces to this day but when he died (461) it could be said of him, as of no other, that one man had converted a nation.

"Only second to him in the affection of the Irish people stands the woman who did most to consolidate his victory. St. Brigid, we are told, was the daughter of a slave and a king but we know nothing definite of her before 476 when she took the veil.

"Overcoming countless obstacles, she founded the 'Church of the Oak Tree' -- Cill-dara -- at a spot still so named, Kildare. Soon it developed into a monastery, a nunnery, and a school as famous as that which grew at Parick's Armagh. She died about 525, honored throughout the island, and 10,000 Irish women still bear the name of the 'Mary of the Gael.'

"A generation later St. Ruadhan laid a curse upon Tara. After 558, when King Kiarmaid died, the ancient halls were abandoned, and Ireland's kings, still pagan in culture, became Christian in creed."

Any further comments about the Irish culture before we move on?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 4, 2004 - 05:08 am
As we move through the development of Christianity, this ARTICLE from this morning's NY Times may be of interest. As usual, careful choice of words is helpful.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
October 4, 2004 - 06:40 am
"Besides observing that the name 'Druid' is derived from 'oak', it was Pliny the Elder, in his Naturalis Historia (XVI, 95), who associates the Druids with mistletoe and oak groves: 'The Druids...hold nothing more sacred than the mistletoe and the tree on which it grows provided it is an oak. They choose the oak to form groves, and they do not perform any religious rites without its foliage...' Pliny also describes how the Druids used a 'gold pruning hook' or 'sickle' to gather the mistletoe.

" 'Anything growing on those trees [oaks] they regard as sent from heaven and a sign that this tree has been chosen by the gods themselves. Mistletoe is, however, very rarely found, and when found, it is gathered with great ceremony and especially on the sixth day of the moon... They prepare a ritual sacrifice and feast under the tree, and lead up two white bulls whose horns are bound for the first time on this occasion. A priest attired in a white vestment ascends the tree and with a golden pruning hook cuts the mistletoe which is caught in a white cloth. Then next they sacrifice the victims praying that the gods will make their gifts propitious to those to whom they have given it. They believe that if given in drink the mistletoe will give fecundity to any barren animal, and that it is predominant against all poisons.' "

Source:

Druids

Malryn (Mal)
October 4, 2004 - 06:47 am
Confessions of St. Patrick

Bubble
October 4, 2004 - 06:52 am
Not all beatified end in the saints list. I will add only one small comment: from this article it looks easier these days to reach beatification than 40 or 30 years ago. I seem to remember the criteria were very stringent and had to be countersigned by many witnesses.

Rich7
October 4, 2004 - 09:18 am
In the creation of a saint, the person's life is reviewed as in a court of law. The Vatican appoints a person (like a prosecuting attorney) to show why the candidate should not become a saint. That person is called the "Devil's Advocate." Interesting origin of a fairly common expression.

I read in this morning's paper that two more people have been beatified and are moving forward in the process toward sainthood. One of the candidates is the former King Karl (I forget which number) of Austria. You can expect that the Devil's Advocate will bring up the fact that King Karl's troops used poison gas against their enemies in WWI. (It was supposedly done against his wishes.)

Rich

moxiect
October 4, 2004 - 09:39 am
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I have often wonder why the IRISH always celebrate St Patrick's day on 3/17 was supposedly the date of his date! Does this celebration mean it is a carry on of some kind of wake?

My Irish friends can't answer, but maybe somebody here can.

Rich7
October 4, 2004 - 10:36 am
After much difficulty and time, I finally got registered this afternoon with the New York Times so that I can read Robby's NY Times references.

I went back and read your NY Times reference about sainthood, and discovered that the story was about King Charles (Karl). I didn't mean to step on your news "scoop" with my later story.

As to my reference to him as Karl and the story calling him Charles, Karl is the German language version of Charles. For instance, the French hero Charlemagne, is the same person who we, in English, call Charles the Great, and the Germans call Karl Der Gross. It's all the same boy.

Sorry, Robby, for stepping on your story.

Rich

Scrawler
October 4, 2004 - 12:45 pm
Rabbit's Foot: "The rabbit's habit of burrowing lent to an aura of mystery. The Celts believed that the animal spent so much time underground because it was in secret communications with the netherworld of numina. Thus,a rabbit was privy to information humans were denied. And the fact that most animals, including humans, are born with their eyes closed, while rabbits enter the world with eyes wide open, imbued them with an image of wisdom: for the Celts, rabbits witnessed the mysteries of prenatal life. (Actually, the hare is born with open eyes; the rabbit is born blind. And it is the rabbit that burrows; hares live above ground.)

It was the rabbit's fecundity, though, that helped to give its body parts their strongest association with good luck and prosperty. So prolific was the animal that early peoples regarded it as an outstanding example of all that was procreative in nature. To possess any part of a rabbit - tail, ear, foot, or dried innards - assured a person's good fortune. Interestingly, the foot was always the preferred totem, believed to be luckier than any other body part. ("Panati's Extraordinary Origins of Everyday Things" p. 3)

Crossed Fingers: If you cross your fingers when making a wish, or if you tell a friend, "Keep your fingers crossed," you're partaking of an ancient custom that required the participation of two people, intersecting index fingers.

The popular gesture grew out of the pagan belief that a cross was a symbol of perfect unity; and that its point of intersection marked the dwelling place of beneficent spirts. A wish made on a cross was supposed to be anchored steadfastly at the cross's intersection until that desire was realized. The superstition was popular among many early European cultures.

The notion of trapping a fantasy until it becomes a reality is found in another ancient European superstition: tying a string around the finger. Today we label the practice a "memory aid," a means of "psychological association" in which the string serves merely as a reminder of a task to be performed. To the Celts, the Romans, and the Anglo-Saxons, the string was thought to physically prevent the idea from escaping the body. (PEOOET p. 9)

Halloween: Named "All Hallows Eve," the festival was first celebrated by the ancient Celts in Ireland in the fifth century B.C. On the night of October 31, then the official end of summer, Celtic households extinguished the fires on their hearths to deliberately make their homes cold and undesirable to disembodied spirits. They then gathered outside the village, where a Druid priest kindled a huge bonfire to simultaneously honor the sun god for the past summer's harvest and to frighen away furtive spirits.

The Celts believed that on October 31, all persons who had died in the previous year assembled to chose the body of the person or animal they would inhabit for the next twelve months, before they could pass peacefully into the afterlife. To frighten roving souls, Celtic family members dressed themselves as demons, hobgoblins, and witches. They paraded first inside, then outside, the fireless house, always as noisy and destructive as possible. Finally, they clamored along the street to the bonfire outside town. A villager, deemed by apperance or mannerism to be already possessed, could be sacrificed in the fire as a lesson to other spirits contemplating human possession." (PEOOET, p. 62)

winsum
October 4, 2004 - 01:13 pm
in order to read some of these comments I have to copy and paste them into simple text (note pad) enlarge the font and make it bold. it would be nice if when you post you all made everything bold. I like bubbles posts in purple because they are so easy to read. . . claire color helps too.

Rich7
October 4, 2004 - 02:05 pm
Claire, Is this better?

Rich

Justin
October 4, 2004 - 02:12 pm
What must I do to post in bold, Claire?

When I am struggling with a problem, I try to divert my mind with other topics. When I come back to the problem the solution comes easily. Sometimes the solution will come to me while shaving or during breakfast. These out of context responses appear as "visions". There is nothing miraculous in the process. It is just one of the ways we solve problems.

I think it is useful to add the Irish Celts to our list of peoples who sacrificed their first born and sometimes more children in the hope of appeasing the gods who stand in the way of a good harvest. The Hebrews also sacrificed their first borne. The Hebrew practice lasted for many centuries (perhaps, a millennium) after Abraham's substitution of a ram. St. Patrick ended the practice for the Irish.I forget who voided it for the Hebrews but I think it was accomplished after the Babylonian experience.

Rich7
October 4, 2004 - 03:41 pm
I have a personal Druid story to tell.

My home is near the ocean in southern New England. My wife and I like to walk along a sort of sea wall along the shore. Between the sea wall and the actual ocean is a range of rocks, boulders and pebbles.

Recently we noticed piles of boulders and rocks in that area precariously balanced on top of each other to a height of six to ten feet. Other walkers along the wall also took note of the mysterious sculptures, and even the local newspaper sent a reporter to photograph the puzzling pillars.

The stone pillars increased in number each day for weeks. One day, walking by, I saw a middle aged man building one of the curiosities. Trying to be funny, I told him that I was sorry to see a mere mortal building the pillars because I had been telling people that they were put here by the Druids.

His reply, "I am a Druid"

He reached into his pocket and pulled out a card which attested that Mr. "Whatever" has passed all the requirements to enter the ancient and mysterious Order of Druids, and is officially a Druid.

Seeing that his credentials were in order, I wished him luck in his pillar building and moved on.

A true story.


Rich

3kings
October 4, 2004 - 04:42 pm
Justin, you said :- When I am struggling with a problem, I try to divert my mind with other topics. When I come back to the problem the solution comes easily. Sometimes the solution will come to me while shaving or during breakfast.

I've heard many people have this experience, but sadly not I. I understand Poincaré found that the solution of mathematical problems often came to him in such fashion, and Szilard claimed the idea of a nuclear chain reaction and the atomic bomb came to him while waiting at a pedestrian crossing.

Sometimes a person's name, which I couldn't remember, will come to me "out of the blue", but the solution of some problem only comes to me, if at all, while actively grappling with the problem. Would that it were otherwise .... ++ Trevor

robert b. iadeluca
October 4, 2004 - 05:32 pm
I'm glad that Claire brought up the subject of using bold print. I am aware of the fact that the eyes of different people vary so for years I have been posting here in bold print.

It's very simple to do. Just put a bracket on each side of a B at the start of the posting.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 4, 2004 - 05:34 pm
The Last Days of Classic Gaul

310-480

robert b. iadeluca
October 4, 2004 - 05:56 pm
"Gaul, in the fourth and fifth centuries, was materially the most prosperous, intellectually the most advanced, of Roman provinces in the West. The soil was generous, the crafts were skilled, the rivers and the seas bore a teeming trade. State-supported universities flourished at Narbonne, Arles, Bordeaux, Toulouse, Lyons, Marseille, Poitiers, and Trier. Teachers and orators, poets and sages enjoyed a status and acclaim usually reserved for politicians and pugilists.

"With Ausonius and Sidonius, Gaul took over the literary leadership of Europe.

"Decimus Magnus Ausonius was the poet and embodiment of this Gallic Silver Age. He was born at Bordeaux about 310, son of its leading physician. He received his education there and later told the world, in generous hexameters, the virtues of his teachers, remembering their smiles and forgetting their blows.

"In the even tenor of his years he too became a professor at Bordeaux, taught 'grammar' (i.e. literature) and 'rhetoric' (i.e. oratory and philosophy) for a generation, and tutored the future Emperor Gratian.

"The sincere affection with which he writes of his parents,uncles, wife, children, and pupils suggests a home and a life like that of a nineteenth-century university town in the United States. He describes pleasantly the house and fields that he inherited from his father and where he hopes to spend his declining years. He says to his wife, in the early years of their marriage:- 'Let us live always as we live now, and let us not abandon the names that we have given each other in our first love. You and I must always remain young and you shall always be beautiful to me. We must keep no count of the years.'

"Soon, however, they lost the first child that she gave him. Years later he commemorated it lovingly:- 'I will not leave you unwept, my first-born child, called by my name. Just as you were practicing to change your babbling into the first words of childhood, we had to mourn your death. You lie on your great-grandfather's bosom, sharing his grave.'

"His wife died early in their happy marrige, after giving him a daughter and a son. He was so deeply bound to her that he never married again.

"In his old age he described with fresh grief, the pain of his loss, and the somber silence of the house that had known the care of her hands and the cadence of her feet.

"His poems pleased his time by their tender sentiment, their rural pictures, the purity of their Latin, the almost Virgilian smoothness of their verse. Paulinus, the future saint, compared his prose with Cicero's, and Symmachus could not find in Virgil anything lovelier than Ausonius' Mosella. The poet had grown fond of that river while with Gratian at Trier, he describes it as running through a very Eden of vineyards, orchards, villas, and prospering farms. For a time he makes us feel the verdure of its banks and the music of its flow. Then, with all-embracing bathos, he indites a litany to the amiable fish to be found in the stream.

"The Whitmanesque passion for cataloguing relatives, teachers, pupils, fish is not redeemed by Whitman's omnivorous feeling and lusty philosohy. Ausonius, after thirty years of grammar, could hardly burn with more than literary passions. His poems are rosaries of friendship, litanies of praise.

"But those of us who have not known such alluring uncles or seductive professors are rarely exalted by these doxologies."

Any poets or lovers of poetry here?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 4, 2004 - 06:08 pm
Here is the MOSELLA BY AUSONIUS -- an English translation from the Latin.

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
October 4, 2004 - 06:14 pm
I love the bold print too but I wish someone would tell me how to do that in the message box. The print there is so tiny and pale gray it's hard on these eyes after an hour or so.

Eloïse

Persian
October 4, 2004 - 06:27 pm
ROBBY - O Great Master, could you enlighten us about how to use COLOR in our posts? I agree that it is very tiring to read through numerous posts, but those in color and bold font certainly help.

Malryn (Mal)
October 4, 2004 - 07:12 pm
The html code for a color font is:
<font color="#0000FF"><b>

That shows as BLUE.

<font color="#800000"><b>

That shows as rust.

<font color="#4B0082"><b>

That one shows as purple.

Red is "#FF0000"

Green is #006400"

winsum
October 4, 2004 - 08:11 pm
use this kind of bracket before and then afteronly with a slash.

if I do it here with anthing inside it will activate so I'll leave it empty and when you want bold you but a "b" inside. .



< > and at the end turn it off with a slash like this </ > the space I left will be filled with a "b"

.

color is good too. using the same brackets only with the words mal showed you in them.

the color cn be noted with a word too for some of the common ones, not necessary to kow the formula for rgb as in red, yellow, blue, pink, fuscia. . let's see if the word has to be in quotes. I didn't do it this time. claire

yep it worked without quotes so do it like this Ill use parentheses instead of brackets so it won't activate.

<>(font color=fuscia) only it thought I said red. . . I probably spelled it wrong. nad turn it off at the end like this (/font). . . easy??? onward. claire

Persian
October 4, 2004 - 08:27 pm
MAL/CLAIRE - do you mean to type in the name of the color (i.e. RED) or the words "font color?" OK, OK, not enough sleep and too much belly dancing!

winsum
October 4, 2004 - 08:32 pm
works just fine with this formula only i'm going t use parantheses so it won't activate



(font color=red> it only lets you use the word RED for a few common colors, blue green gold light blue etc. will work too.

claire

winsum
October 4, 2004 - 08:48 pm
we we have a really fine one who pops in and out. . . Jan Sand says he has four hundred PAGES of poems. I put ten of them up on a page for him here. He's very funny and very profound all at the same time. . . claire



http://www.geocities.com/artetal/jansand.html

let's see if that works

yep only I should have put them in BOLD and larger. oh well . . . squint!!!

Malryn (Mal)
October 4, 2004 - 09:15 pm
Click here to see Noneen's font color chart


<font color="#800000"><b>Type in the code that precedes these words. YOUR TEXT GOES HERE.</font></b>


You have now typed in the html code for a colored text, and then you closed it out. Post your message now.

You can use the names of the colors instead of the numbers, but the coding is more accurate when you use the numbers.

Mal

Justin
October 4, 2004 - 09:55 pm
Are we using brackets or less than, more than signs. [B] is for bold. is for bold. But I see no bold. Now let me see some color. What am I not doing?

Justin
October 4, 2004 - 09:59 pm
Now to shut it off.</"#0000FF"> Is it off?

Justin
October 4, 2004 - 10:00 pm
Is it off?

Justin
October 4, 2004 - 10:03 pm
How do you folks like this color?

Sunknow
October 4, 2004 - 10:24 pm
About the poetry: MOSELLA BY AUSONIUS. So many times, poetry loses it's beauty in the translation, but it is still there in English. It makes me wonder how much more beautiful his poetry would be in Latin.

Starting with the "Roman Bridge at Bingen", I read and loved his poetry. And yes, when he writes about the Mosella, his words flow like the river must. I so loved the Rhine when I lived in Germany, but back when Ausonius lived, his river must have been wild and fresh and beautiful, by comparison.

When I read "Ausonius on himself" which is something of a biography, it inspired me. I am knee deep in family Genealogy at the moment. Maybe I should write an epic poem about my family history. That should keep me occupied for a while.

Back to the Saints. I have always wondered why there had to be so many of them. I know they say there are not as many chosen now as in the past(I believe the Pope is making up for lost time now). I have often wondered if there is a "list" of them inscribed somewhere. I mean ALL Saints, from the beginning of time. And like many skeptics, I wonder if half of their miracles were authentic. Though I am sure back in earlier times, many things might have seemed more miraculous than they do to us now.

JUSTIN --BEWARE OF LIGHT COLORS....THEY WILL MAKE US ALL BLIND.

Sun

winsum
October 4, 2004 - 10:54 pm
just checking to see if it needs the quotes. this shold be magenta or something like it. also bold beginning right here. and ending here.

yep it works without the quotes but ou need the # with the numerical color. . . fascinating isn't it. back to the durants though. . . you can use the font size=4 or 5 or 7 too in the font command and it changes size along with the color . . .

claire

JoanK
October 4, 2004 - 11:12 pm
Here is the Seniornet abbreviated color chart on one page. It's a little quicker to use, and no pop-up ads, but not as complete.

SENIORNET COLOR CHARTS

robert b. iadeluca
October 5, 2004 - 03:03 am
Well, mankind has progressed to the point where participants in SofC are now color experts. Nice to see that we are "lightening up" but as we all know "too much of a good thing" etc. The guide I give myself is to stick with the basic primary colors and, as Sun says, stay away from the light colored ones. You may notice that I have chosen specific colors for specific purposes.

And now back to Durant.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 5, 2004 - 03:40 am
"When Valentinian I died (375), Gratian, now Emperor, called his old tutor to him, and showered him and his with political plums. In quick succession Ausonius was prefect of Illyricum, Italy, Africa, Gaul. Finally, at sixty-nine, consul. At his urging, Gratian decreed state aid for education, for poets and physicians, and for the protection of ancient art. Through his influence Symmachus was made prefect of Rome, and Paulinus a provincial governor.

"Autonius mourned when Paulinus became a saint. The Empire, threatened everywhere, needed such men.

"Ausonius too was a Christian, but not too seriously. His tastes, subjects, meters, and mythology were blithely pagan.

"At seventy the old poet returned to Bordeaux, to live another twenty years. He was now a grandfather and could match the filial poems of his youth with the grandparental fondness of age. He counsels his grandson:-'Be not afraid though the school resound with many a stroke, and the old master wears a scowling face. Let no outcry, or sound of stripes, make you quake as the morning hours move on. That he brandishes the cane for a scepter, that he has a full outfit of birches is but the outward show to cause idle fears. Your father and mother went through all this in their day and have lived to soothe my peaceful and serene old age.'

"Fortunate Ausonius, to have lived and died before the barbarian flood!"

Any thoughts about this?

Robby

Rich7
October 5, 2004 - 05:18 am
How do you identify a pagan "meter" in poetry?

Ausonius certainly was a "spare the rod and spoil the child" advocate.

Rich

Malryn (Mal)
October 5, 2004 - 07:08 am

Epigram No 62 by Ausonius c. 310-390



Glad youth had come they sixteenth year to crown,
To soft encircle thy dear cheeks with down
And part the mingled beauties of thy face,
When death too quickly comes to snatch your grace.
But thou'll not herd with ghostly common fools,
Nor piteous, waft the Stygian pools;
Rather with blithe Adonis shalt thou rove
And play Ganymede to highest Jove.




[in Penguin Book of Homosexual Verse]

Malryn (Mal)
October 5, 2004 - 07:28 am
"In the end it is perhaps not the content of Ausonius' epigrams that is most surprising. Many of them could have been written by any of his predecessors, including Martial. What seems most interesting is rather the fact that Ausonius took the time and trouble to write them in the first place, more than 250 years after Martial. He obviously considered all of pagan literature as a large corpus of inspiring, actual texts, a continuous unbroken whole, a body of literature to which he could still gain access. The link with antiquity was still there. But in many instances this retrospective approach led Ausonius to produce poems that had only marginal relations to contemporary reality. Notably the obscene poems in Priapean or Martial fashion seem rather detached from the cultural climate in which Ausonius lived, with its increasingly strict sexual rules and morals. In his days, a series of epigrams on cunnilingus or pederasty could perhaps only be defended as traditional literary exercises. Any suggestion of realism would have caused serious problems."

Source:

Scholia Reviews

Scrawler
October 5, 2004 - 09:44 am
TEST

Justin
October 5, 2004 - 02:27 pm
That Ausonius was able to publish in this phase of the "Dark Ages" is a miracle. Sexuality was going underground at this time and the game of sex was disappearing in favor of procreation. Some members of the Church hierarchy, I think, would have preferred some other method of producing children. Something on the order of the stork would have been acceptable as would a shower of gold from Zeus but not sex. Sex was a sin committed by Eve.Bachelors and old maids were preferred over married couples. These ideas lasted until the sexual revolution of the 60's and the advent of the pill.

Shasta Sills
October 5, 2004 - 02:39 pm
Rich, since the Iliad and the Odyssey were written in dactylic hexameter, maybe that's pagan meter. You couldn't get much more pagan than those epics.

Jan Sand really has a way with words, doesn't he? How does he think up all those clever rhymes?

Oh, I forgot to speak BOLDLY.

robert b. iadeluca
October 5, 2004 - 02:40 pm
"Apollinaris Sidonius was to Gallic prose in the fifth century what Ausonius had been to Gallic poetry in the fourth. He burst upon the world at Lyons (432) where his father was prefect of Gaul. His grandfather had filled the same office and his mother was a relative of that Avitus who would become emperor in 455, and whose daughter Sidonius would marry in 452.

"It would have been difficult to improve upon these arrangements. Papianilla brought him as dowry a luxurious villa near Clermont. His life for some years was a round of visits to and from his aristocratic friends. They were people of culture and refinement, with a flair for gambling and idleness. They lived in their country houses, and seldom soiled their hands with politics. They were quite incapable of protecting their luxurious ease against the invading Goths.

"They did not care for city life. Already French and British wealth was preferring the country to the town. In these sprawling villas -- some with 125 rooms -- all comforts and elegances were gathered:-mosaic floors -- columned halls -- landscape murals -- sculptures in marble and bronze -- great fireplaces and baths -- gardens and tennis courts -- and environing woods in which ladies and gentlemen night hunt with all the glamour of falconry.

"Nearly every villa had a good library containing the classics of pagan antiquity and some respectable Christian texts.

"Sidonius illustrates the better side of this genteel life -- hospitality, courtesy, good cheer, moral decency, with a touch of chiseled poetry and melodious prose. When Avitus went to Rome to be emperor, Sidonius accompanied him and was chosen to deliver the welcoming panegyric (456). He returned go Gaul a year later with Avitus deposed but in 468 we find him in Rome again, holding the high office of prefect of the city amid the last convulsions of the state.

"Moving comfortably through the chaos, he described the high society of Gaul and Rome in letters modeled upon those of Pliny and Symmachus, and matching them in vanity and grace.

"Lest we misrepresent Sidonius we much add that he was a good Christian and a brave bishop. In 469, unexpectedly and unwillingly, he found himself precipitated from lay status to the episcopacy of Clermont. A bishop in those days had to be a civil administrator as well as a spiritual guide. Men of experience and wealth like Ambrose and Sidonius had qualifications that proved more effective than theological erudition.

"Reality broke into this pleasant life when Euric, King of the Visigoths, decided to annex Auvergne. Each summer, for four years, the Goths laid siege to Clermont, its capaital. Sidonius fought them with diplomacy and prayer but failed. When at last the city fell he was taken captive and was imprisoned in a fortress near Carcassonne (475).

"Two years later he was released and restored to his see. How long he survived we do not know but already at forty-five he wished to be 'delivered from the pains and burdens of present life by a holy death.' He had lost faith in the Roman Empire and now put all his hopes for civilization in the Roman Church.

"The Church forgave him his half-pagan poetry and made him a saint."

It's not what you know but who you know.

Robby

Rich7
October 5, 2004 - 03:28 pm
Further to my encounter with a real-life Druid on the New England shore, I found a site that tells you how to become one.

http://www.neopagan.net/UAODbooklet.html

Rich

3kings
October 5, 2004 - 08:59 pm
Durant, in the above excerpt, says :- "Men of experience and wealth like Ambrose and Sidonius had qualifications that proved more effective than theological erudition."

Already it seems, in this early age, the Church had greater faith in money and Politics, than in Christian Philosophy.

As Robby remarked, it's who you know, not what.....== Trevor

winsum
October 5, 2004 - 09:02 pm
happened way back when they "borrowed" pagan holidaays and rituals and translated them into christian saints and saints days. . . they needed to give the masses something they could recognize when they took away something they counted on (their belief system_ .. . claire

Malryn (Mal)
October 5, 2004 - 10:04 pm
When you have a product you want to sell to people you have to advertise it, so you find salespersons to do this and market it for you. You are not unwilling to use a little sleight of hand or magic to attract customers.

You have to have an administrative staff, from clerks to keep records, on up to the executive staff which makes decisions about how you're going to promote this product even further.

You have to have people interested in the economics of the business who will figure out how to pay the costs involved for the salaries of employees and executives and the buildings in which the business is going to take place, and even more advertising.

The product has to be appealing enough that the people to whom you want to sell this product will open their pockets to buy your product and contribute to your business so it will succeed, so you keep refining it to make it even more attractive.

There have to be market analysts who will find weak spots in the competition that when advertised will cause the consumers of the other product to buy yours.

It seems to me that from Paul on up, there have been a good many very smart businessmen around.

Mal

Justin
October 5, 2004 - 10:42 pm
Sidonius was a Gallo-Roman who was well born and well heeled. He accomplished three panegyrics in verse for emperors and was rewarded with a statue in Trajan's forum. When he returned to Gaul, to Clermont-Ferrand specifically, he was, without religious credentials, appointed Bishop of Clermont. I have not read his prose (of which there is a great deal) but J.Wight Duff, professor of Latin Literature, says it is stilted and obscure. I believe him so I will not read his work.

I think Robby's comment about who you know was relevant in Sidonius'case, also posession of a few extra sheckels did not hurt. Why the Durants think he is worth our time is not clear.

Clermont-Ferrand was gestapo headquarters during the late war. Was it not? I seem to remember Jimmy Cagney being beat up in one of it's cellars.

Justin
October 5, 2004 - 11:01 pm
Bubble: Some one recently said to me that Judaism is not a belief system but rather a collection of do's and don'ts. When I asked what they meant by a belief system they referred to the entire dogmatic- ritualistic structure of Christianity. Do you see any justification for the comment?

JoanK
October 5, 2004 - 11:14 pm
There is a good work of historical fiction that invoves this period: "The Dream of Scipio" by Iain Pears.

It involves a Roman philosopher who I believe may be based on Sidonius. Although the name is different his career is similar. I can't find a date in the book to tie it down, but it is roughly the same period and area of France.

The premise is that he wrote a seminal work in philosophy, which was lost, rediscovered by a scolar in the 14th century and rediscovered again by another scholar in the 1940s. The plot moves between the lives of the three men, one living through the disintegration of the Roman empire, one living through the Black Death and the disintegration of the Papacy at Avignon, and the third living through the occupation of France by the Nazis (This fits in with your remark, Justin).

The author draws parallels and contrasts between the three men around the question of whether it is possible to live an ethical life in a period of disintegration and decay.

Bubble
October 6, 2004 - 02:32 am
Justin, I would have called it a set of codes for behaving in all ways of life instead of a faith or a belief system. I suppose that in order to respects all those injunctions on how to behave you do have to have faith, because they are very limiting in my eyes. That has of course the purpose of keeping the "Chosen People" apart from the others and sustain its integrity as a different and unique people. I suppose Islam is very similar.

In Judaism, you do not need the hierarchy you find in the Church. Prayers at home is as valid as one in the synagogue and anyone could lead the service at the synagogue, not necessarily an "ordained" rabbi. My uncle, who never did any theological studies, often led services in Johannesburg RSA because he had a good voice and people liked his melodic reading.

Some prayers require a mynian or quorum of 10 adult males but I understood they are not essential to the whole service. A mynian has to be present to recite the Kadish, the prayer for the dead. I bet we are not the only one reciting it without mynian every year at the anniversary of our loved ones.

robert b. iadeluca
October 6, 2004 - 02:59 am
The Franks

240-511

robert b. iadeluca
October 6, 2004 - 03:13 am
"With the death of Sidonius the night of barbarism closed down upon Gaul. We must not exaggerate that darkness. Men still retained economic skills, traded goods, minted coinage, composed poetry, and practiced art. Under Euric (466-84) and Alaric II (484-507) the Visigothic kingdom in southwestern Gaul was sufficiently orderly, civilized, and progressive to draw praise from Sidonius himself.

"In 506 Alaric II issued a Breviarium, or summary, of laws for his realm. It was a comparatively enlightened code, reduding to rule and reason the relations between the Romano-Gallic population and its conquerors. A like code was enacted (510) by the Burgundian kings who had peaceably established their people and power in southeastern Gaul.

"Under the revival of Roman law at Bologna in the eleventh century, Latin Europe would be governed by Gothic and Burgundian codes and the kindred laws of the Franks.

"History picks up the Franks in 240 when the Emperor Aurelian defeated them near Mainz. The Ripuarian Franks -- 'of the bank' -- settled early in the fifth century on the west slopes of the Rhine. They captured Cologne (463), made it their capital, and extended their power in the Rhine valley from Aachen to Metz. Some Frank tribes remained on the east side of the river and gave their name to Franconia.

"The Salic Franks may have taken their distinguishing name from the river Sala (now Ijssel) in the Netherlands. Thence they moved south and west and about 356 occupied the region between the Meuse, the ocean, and the Somme. For the most part their spread was by peaceful migration, sometimes by Roman invitation to settle sparsely occupied lands. By these diverse ways northern Gaul had become half Frank by 430.

"They brought their Germanic languge and pagan faith with them so that during the fifth century Latin ceased to be the speech, and Christianity the religion, of the peoples along the lower Rhine."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 6, 2004 - 03:18 am
Here is a brief description of the FRANK TRIBES.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
October 6, 2004 - 07:21 am
Successors of Rome: Francia, 447 - Present

Persian
October 6, 2004 - 08:06 am
BUBBLE - your comment about the codes to live by in Judaism are identical to Islam. Within the latter, there are no ordained clergy, only Imam's who may/may not have some indepth learning in the religion. I've met many imans in rural areas of the Middle East and Central Asia, who can barely read, yet they have memorized the entire Qur'an and recite it beautifully. The "learned" people of Islam serve as teachers and role models to the rest of the community. Granted, like Judaism, there is a history of some distinguished scholars in Islam and that continues to this day. But the "average" Muslim is just that: average - not a grand scholar or mystic or life-long sequestered student of the Qur'an, whose study prevents him from participating in daily life.

In so many ways, Judaism and Islam are similar in their teaching to the people about laws, behavior and the treatment towards each other. Yet this similarity is often lost on Christians, who do not readily accept - or in many cases are unfamiliar with - the similarities. And of course it is totally lost on those extremists who claim to be Muslims yet persist in their attacks against the innocent in Israel.

In some cases, the aberation of mental illness and confusion might be at play - as in the case of the Jewish dr. who opened fire on Muslims at prayers a few years ago - but nowhere in Judaism or Islam is there justification for the destruction of the innocent - especially chidlren, women and the elderly - as has been the case throughout Israel by the Palestinians.

winsum
October 6, 2004 - 09:35 am
still had an effect on me and mine when I had my first child. . a boy. . I wanted to name him christopher and my mother had a fit. . . the name meant christ to her and she remembered being abused by other children at school who claimed that the jews killed christ and she begged me not to do that. so his name is Tom and it fits. He's now in his fifties but as a young man resembled someone named christopher...yep christopher Reeves .. . superman? (G) somehow I got my way didnt I. . . . claire

winsum
October 6, 2004 - 03:07 pm
here is a site with music in midi form. . . nice listening and appropriate for this period. . . claire

http://www.smsu.edu/folksong/maxhunter/SongTitle.html

Iplayed one about caroline of Eddonboro town...an american version of a scotch song? depending upon your equipment this was sung by a man. . real player seems to do it.

http://www.smsu.edu/folksong/maxhunter/0300/index.html

robert b. iadeluca
October 6, 2004 - 03:10 pm
That was very very pleasant, Claire. Thank you.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 6, 2004 - 03:30 pm
"The Salic Franks described themselves, in the prologue to their 'Salic Law,' as 'the glorious people, wise in council, noble in body, radiant in health, excelling in beauty, daring, quick, hardened. This is the people that shook the cruel yoke of the Romans from its neck.'

"They considered themsllves not barbarians but self-liberated freemen. Frank meant free, enfranchised. They were tall and fair --knotted their long hair in a tuft on the head -- and let it fall thence like a horse's tail --wore mustaches but no beards -- bound their tunics at the waist with leather belts convered with segments of enameled iron. From this belt hung sword and battle-ax, and articles of toilet like scissors and combgs.

"The men, as well as the women, were fond of jewelry, and wore rings, armlets, and beads. Every a able-bodied male was a warrior, taught from youth to run, leap, swim, and throw his lance or ax to its mark. Courage was the supreme virtue for which murder, rapine, and rape might be readily forgiven.

"But history, by telescoping one dramatic event into the next, leaves a false impression of the Franks as merely warriors. Their conquests and battles were no more numerous, and far less extensive and destructive, than our own.

"Their laws show them engaged in agriculture and handicrafts, making northeastern Gaul a prosperous and usually peaceful rural society.

"The Salic Law was formulated early in the sixth century, probably in the same generation that saw Justinian's full development of Roman law. We are told that 'four venerable chieftains' wrote it, and that it was examined and approved by three successive assemblies of the people.

"Trial was largely by 'compurgation' and ordeal. A sufficient number of qualified witnesses attesting the good character of a defendant cleared him of any charge of which he was not evidently guilty. The number of witnesses required varied with the enormity of the alleged crime. Seventy-two could free a supposed murderer, but when the chastity of a queen of France was in question, three hundred nobles were needed to certify the paternity of her child.

"If the matter at issue still stood in doubt, the law of ordeal was invoked. The accused, bound hand and foot, might be flung into a river, to sink if innocent, to float if guilty (for the water, having been exorcised by religious ceremony, would reject a sinful person.) Or the accused would be made to walk barefoot through fire or over red-hot irons -- or to hold a red-hot iron in his hand for a given time -- or to plunge a bare arm into boiling water and pluck out an object from the bottom.

"Or accuser and accused would stand with arms outstretched in the form of a cross, until one or the other proclaimed his guilt by leeting his arm fall with fatigue. Or the accused would take the consecrated wafer of the Eucharist and, if guilty, would surely be struck down by God.

"Or trial by combat would decide between two freemen when legal evidence still left a reasonable doubt. Some of these ordeals were old in history. The Avesta indicates that the ordeal of boiling water was used by the ancient Persians. The laws of Manu (before A.D.100) mention Hindu ordeals by submersion. Ordeals by fire or hot irons appear in Sophocles' Antigone. The Semites rejected ordeals as impious, the Romans ignored them as superstitious. The Germans developed them to the full.

"The Christian Church reluctantly acceptd them and surrounded them with religious ceremony and solemn oath."

Any comments about these ancient ancestors of the French?

Robby

Justin
October 6, 2004 - 04:13 pm
Robby;Ancestors of the French and Germans or one might well say German ancestors of the French. Frankfurt is not so named because it is a free city but because it is in the land of the ancient Franks. Later we will find that Charlemagne, the Frank, has his capitol at Aix la Chapelle or Aachen. You will recall all the fun the American Army had at Aachen.

Justin
October 6, 2004 - 04:37 pm
We are in the midst of that period in history called the "Dark Ages" It runs from the disposition of the last classical emperor in the west ( about 475) to the rise of Charlemagne (about 800). Durant says that literacy ended in the west during this period. Only monks in monasteries kept the written language alive. Sidonius, as obscure as he was, was the last of the secular writers. A great pall of myth then descended on Europe, Asia, and Afica and in my judgement it was not until Darwin that the pall was completely blown away.

I can not blame the Church entirely for the rise of illiteracy. The migrations of the Goths and the Huns had much to do with the demise of secular reading. Who can read on the move? Durant makes the point that it is not until one can put down the sword, take root, and grow food that the leisure needed for reading and writing becomes available. Such a time represents the beginning of civilization. I think a case can be made for retrogression from civilization in the period 476CE to 800 CE.

robert b. iadeluca
October 6, 2004 - 05:34 pm
"The first Frank king known by name was the Chlodio who attacked Cologne in 431. Aetius defeated him but Chlodio succeeded in occupying Gaul as far west as the Somme and making Tournai his capital.

"A possibly legendary successor, Merovech ('Son of the Sea'?) gave his name to the Merovingian dynasty which ruled the Franks until 751. Merovech's son Childeric seduced Basina, wife of a Thuringian king. She went to be his queen, saying she knew no man wiser, stronger, or handsomer.

"The child of their union was Clovis, who founded France and gave his name to eighteen French kings.

"Clovis inherited the Merovingian throne in 481, aged fifteen. His realm was then a mere corner of Gaul. Other Frank tribes ruled the Rhineland, and the Visigothic and Burgundian kingdoms in southern Gaul had been made fully independent by the fall of Rome.

"Northwest Gaul, still nominally under Roman power, was left defenseless. Clovis invaded it -- captured towns and dignitaries -- acceptd ransoms -- sold spoils -- bought troops, supplies, and arms -- advanced to Soissons -- and defeated a 'Roman' army (486).

"During the next ten years he extended his conquests until they touched Brittany and the Loire. He won over the Gallic population by leaving them in possession of their lands, and the orthodox Christian clergy by respecting their creed and their wealth.

"In 493 he married a Christian, Clothilde, who soon converted him from paganism to Nicene Christianity. Remi, bishop and saint, baptized him at Reims before an audience of prelates and notables judiciously invited from all Gaul. Three thousand soldiers followed Clovis to the font. Perhaps Clovis, longing to reach the Mediterranean, thought France was worth a Mass.

"The orthodox population in Visigothic and Burgundian Gaul now looked askance at their Arian rulers, and became the secret or open allies of the young Frank king."

Once again those who believe in the divinity of Christ and those who do not confront each other.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 6, 2004 - 05:43 pm
A very interesting human interest story about CLOVIS.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 6, 2004 - 06:01 pm
Here is a map of France indicating the location of RHEIMS in the northeast where Clovis took the Christian faith.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 6, 2004 - 06:19 pm
Clovis has a pagan belief and all his soldiers are paganists. He then becomes Christian and so his soldiers now turn to that faith.

Now that's what I call "belief."

Robby

Fifi le Beau
October 6, 2004 - 06:55 pm
Robby, I see it more like follow the leader.

Fifi

Justin
October 6, 2004 - 10:55 pm
The Christian conversion of Clovis was more like latching onto a fourleaf clover and in addition quieting a wife who badgered him about her God. Constantine did much the same thing for much the same reason. The Christian religion is ok with kings if it helps win battles. There is a painting of Clovis being baptised at Reims.Bishop Remegius did the deed. I must be getting old because I can't remember it's location.

There is an interesting story about St. Leonard who belonged to the court of Clovis. He generally, interceded with Clovis on behalf of prisoners. When Clothilde was pregnant she began labor pains while in the field hunting. Leonard came to her aid with prayer to delay the action while she returned home to a midwife.

winsum
October 7, 2004 - 12:31 am
based upon victory in battle,not very moral or spiritual, just magical thinking . . .a primative quid pro quo. claire

Bubble
October 7, 2004 - 03:13 am
All the French history books from elementary school onward have that famous sentence in them: "Si Tu me donnes la victoire, je croirai en Toi" from the mouth of Clovis (If you give mevictory I'll believe in you". Is it the same in anglo-saxon educational curriculum? Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
October 7, 2004 - 03:22 am
"Alaric II saw the oncoming tide and tried to turn it back with fair words. He invited Clovis to a conference. They met at Amboise and pledgeed lasting friendship. But Alaric, returning to Toulouse, arrested some orthodox bishops for conspiring with the Franks.

"Clovis summoned his martial assembly and said:-'I take it very hard that these Arians hold part of Gaul. Let us go with God's help and conquer them.' Alaric defended himself as well as he could with a divided people. He was defeatd at Vouille, near Poitiers (507), and was slain by Clovis' hand.

"Says Gregory of Tours:-'After Clovis had spent the winter in Bordeaux and had taken all the treasures of Alaric from Toulouse, he went to besiege Angouleme. And the Lord gave him such grace that the walls fell down of their own accord.' Here, so soon, is the characteristic note of the medieval chronicler, Sigebert. The old king of the Ripuarian Franks had long been an ally of Clovis. To Sigebert's son, Clovis now suggested the advantages tht would come from Sigebert's death. The son killed his father. Clovis sent professions of friendship to the patricide and agents to murder him. This having been attended to, Clovis marched to Cologne and persuaded the Ripuarian chieftains to accept him as their king.

"Says Gregory:-'Every day God caused his enemies to fall benearth his hand because he walked with a right heart before the Lord and did the things that were pleasing in His sight.'

"The conquered Arians were readily converted to the orthodox faith, and their clergy, by omitting an iota, were allowed to retain their clerical rank. Clovis, rich with captives, slaves, spoils, and benedictions, moved his capital to Paris. There, four years later, he died, old at forty-five.

"Queen Clothilde, having helped to make Gaul France, 'came to Tours after the death of her husband and served there in the church of St. Martin, and dwelt in the place with the greatest chastity and kindness all the days of her life.'"

The Arians, including their clergy, "readily" convert to the orthodox faith, having seen the light, so to speak. Discretion is the better part of valor.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 7, 2004 - 03:38 am
Here is a brief bio of CLOTHILDE.

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
October 7, 2004 - 03:41 am
His real name was Chlodowech and it became Clovis by classical historiens according to THIS SOURCE

It evolved with the language and became Chlodowichus, then Lodovicus. Under the Carolingiens, it became Ludovicus. The French language then named him Lodois, then Looïs and at last Louis. So, if the historiens had made the king's name evolve at the same time as the surname, Clovis would be Louis Premier.

Scroll down to see three maps of France at that time.

Eloïse

robert b. iadeluca
October 7, 2004 - 03:46 am
Here is a brief bio of CLOTHILDE.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 7, 2004 - 03:47 am
That's very interesting about the name change, Eloise.

Robby

Rich7
October 7, 2004 - 07:38 am
For personal reasons, I will be unplugging my computer, and putting it into storage for probably 6 months to a year.

Before pulling the plug, I want to thank Dr. Robert B.Iadeluca for the warm welcome he extended to me when I showed an interest in joining the discussion.

Also, thanks to Mal, Bubble, JoanK, Claire, Justin, Traude, Mahlia, Eloise, Scrawler, Shasta, MountainRose, Moxie, Anna, Fifi, and Sunknow for putting up with my thoughts and ideas, and actually taking me seriously.

It has been a long-time dream of mine to read all of the Durants' Story of Civilization. The small window of time that I have been in this discussion has helped me realise a little of that goal.

What made the exercise most meaningful for me was the intelligent input from all you participants.

Some day in the future I hope to get the old computer out of storage, dust it off, and reconnect with The Story of Civilization and all you very nice folks.

Thanks for the experience!

Love,

Rich

Malryn (Mal)
October 7, 2004 - 07:56 am
Ave et vale, RICH. Good luck on your journeys. If you find yourself in my part of North Carolina, the door is always open to friends of Will and Ariel Durant and WREX.

Mal

winsum
October 7, 2004 - 12:54 pm
it's been good to kow you and you will be missed. have a good one what ever it is. . . claire

winsum
October 7, 2004 - 02:01 pm
Louis was it spelled like this LEWIS? It was my name before I exchanged it for my husbands (READ an english name his mother and is father, english also, from wales) my folks from germany have many forms of lewis in the background, lewinsohn, does levy match considering that germans pronowns W as V ? claire

hegeso
October 7, 2004 - 03:48 pm
Claire, Levy doesn't fit here. It is a name showing that the bearer originated from the levites of biblical times. Levites were those who served in the temple. This is what I can remember off the cuff.

By the way, why don't you send me email? Have been waiting so looooong...

robert b. iadeluca
October 7, 2004 - 04:37 pm
Rich:-You have your reasons and we respect them. You have a home here whenever you want to knock on the door.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 7, 2004 - 04:43 pm
The Merovingians

511-614

robert b. iadeluca
October 7, 2004 - 05:03 pm
"Clovis, who had longed for sons, had too many at his death. To avoid a war of succession, he divided his kingdom among them. Childbert received the region of paris -- Chlodomer that of Orleans -- Chlotar that of Soissons -- Theodoric that of Metz and Reims.

"With barbarian energy they continued the policy of unification by conquest. They took Thuringia in 530 -- Burgundy in 534 -- Provence in 536 -- Baravia and Swabia in 555.

"Chlotar I, outliving his brothers and inheriting their kingdoms, governed a Gaul vaster than any later France. Dying (561), he redivided Gaul into three parts:-the Reims and Metz region, known as Austrasia (i.e. East), went to his son Sigebert. Burgundy to Gunthram, and to Chilperic the Soissons region, known as Neustria (i.e. Northwest).

"From the day of Clovis' marriage the history of France has been bisexual, mingling love and war. Sigebert sent costly presents to Athanogild, Visigothic king of Spain, and asked for his daughter Brunhilda. Athanagild, fearing the Franks even when they bore gifts, consented, and Brunhilda came to grace the halls of Metz and Reims (566). Chilperic was envious. All that he had was a simple wife, Audovera, and a rough concubine, Fredergunda.

"He asked Athanagild for Brunhilda's sister. Galswintha came to Soissons, and Chilperic loved her, for she had brought great treasures.

"But she was older than her sister. Chilperic returned to the arms of Fredegunda. Galswintha proposed to go back to Spain. Chilperic had her strangled (567). Sigebert declared war upon Chilperic, and defeated him, but two slaves sent by Fredegunda assassinated Sigebert.

"Brunhilda was captured, escaped, crowned her young son Childebert II, and ruled ably in his name.

"Chilperic is described to us as 'the Nero and Herod of our time,' ruthless -- murderous -- lecherous -- gluttonous -- greedy for gold.

"Gregory of Tours, our sole authority for this portrait, partly explains it by making him also the Frederick II of his age. Chilperic, he tells us, scoffed at the idea of three persons in one God, and at the conception of God as like a man. He held scandalous discussions with Jews -- protested against the wealth of the Church and the political activity of the bishops -- annulled wills made in favor of churches -- sold bishoprics to the highest bibidders -- and tried to remove Gregory himself from the see of Tours.

"The poet Fortunatus described the same king as a synthesis of virtues, a just and genial ruler, a Cicero of eloquence, but Chilperic had rewarded Fortunatus' verse."

Can't you all hear Wagner in the background?

Robby

Justin
October 7, 2004 - 05:23 pm
If anyone understands what Durant meant by "omitting an iota" to convert from Arian Catholicism to Trinitarian Catholicism, I wish you would share it with me.

Justin
October 7, 2004 - 05:25 pm
Rich: I have enjoyed reading your comments enormously so I hope you return to the fold soon.

robert b. iadeluca
October 7, 2004 - 05:43 pm
Justin, how about this?

Arius was a Christian priest in Alexandria, Egypt. In 321 he was denounced by a synod at Alexandria for teaching a heterodox view of the relationship of Jesus Christ to God the Father. Arius and his followers agreed that Jesus was the son of God, but denied that they were one substance (Greek: homo-ousios). Instead, they viewed God and the Son as having distinct but similar substances (Greek: homoi-ousios). The difference in Greek was literally one iota (reflected in the English letter I) of difference. The apparently trivial nature of this difference led Edward Gibbon to remark that "the profane of every age have derided the furious contests which the difference of a single diphthong excited between the Homoousians and the Homoiousians". Jesus is, for Arianism, inferior or subordinate to God the Father. A specific summary statement that came to be at issue was that "there was a stage when Jesus Christ was not"; this statement implied Jesus to be a created being, rather than one coeternal with the Father, and thereby denied the doctrine of the Trinity as it is generally understood today.

robert b. iadeluca
October 7, 2004 - 07:08 pm
While composing, was WAGNER THINKING OF THE MEROVINGIANS?

Robby

Fifi le Beau
October 7, 2004 - 08:20 pm
Durant gives us two descriptions of Chilperic's character. By making an enemy of Gregory of Tours he almost sealed his fate as a gluttonous, greedy, ruthless, murderous, lecherous man.

He had the foresight to hire the poet Fortunatus to describe him as virtuous, just, genial, and eloquent. Gregory seemed to have had more influence on history, and perhaps paying someone to record your virtues is suspect.

Of all the characters we have met on this journey, Augustus Caesar seemed to have the best answer for how to be remembered. He not only wrote his own history he had it recorded in stone in the Res-Gestae. When reading his words, I wrote down the first two words of each line. They all began with the imperial "I". He wrote:

I drove, I undertook, I built, I restored, I gave, I produced, I replaced, I made, I extended, I added, I founded, I recovered, I brought, I extinguished, I controlled, I excelled.

Augustus did not want any personal failings to define him, and he excelled in many things as he himself told us. Define yourself and don't let your enemies or paid poets do it for you.

I am again reminded of Winston Churchill who said, "History will be kind to me, for I intend to write it."

Fifi

Justin
October 7, 2004 - 08:57 pm
... and he did. I have quoted passages from his history often.

Robby: Your explanation of "iota" is outstanding. How did you discover the reference? I'm sorry, I am not giving you enough credit. I know it came from your extensive knowledge of Greek and Christian history. Forgive me for being insensitive.

JoanK
October 7, 2004 - 11:51 pm
RICH: I'm really sorry to see you go. I was looking forward to seeing you in Latin class, as well as here. I hope you return when you can.

Justin
October 7, 2004 - 11:54 pm
Chilperic hired poets to alter his image in history. Churchill wrote history to include his own role in a favorable light. Nero sought to divert the attention of the Roman mob from himself by immolating Christian scapegoats. Our own current political figures hope to shape history by expressing their own version of current historical content. They just say a thing is so and it is so for at least half the registered population. Occasionally, the political lie does not pass. It is discovered and the body politic, allowed to feel outrage, punishes the liar.

robert b. iadeluca
October 8, 2004 - 02:53 am
Justin:-You appear to have forgotten how brilliant I am. Not only that but I am extremely humble. If you don't believe it, just ask me.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 8, 2004 - 03:02 am
"The great masses of the people will more easily fall victims to a big lie than to a small one."

- - - Adoph Hitler

robert b. iadeluca
October 8, 2004 - 03:17 am
"Chilperic was stabbed to death in 584, possibly by an agent of Brunhilda. He left an infant son, Chlotar II, in whose stead Fredegunda ruled Neustria with as much skill, perfidy, and cruelty as any man of the time. She sent a young cleric to kill Brunhilda. When he returned unsuccessful she had his hands and feet cut off, but these items too are from Gregory.

"Meanwhile the nobles of Austrasia, encouraged by Chlotar II, raised revolt after revolt against the imperious Brunhilda. She controlled them as well as she could by diplomacy tempered with assassination. Finally they deposed her, aged eighty, tortured her for three days, tied her by hair, hand, and foot to the tail of a horse, and lashed the horse to flight (614).

"Chlotar II inherited all three kingdoms and the Frank realm was again one.

"From this red chronicle we may exaggerate the barbarism that darkened Gaul hardly a century after the urbane and polished Sidonius. Men must find some substitute for elections. The unifying work of Clovis was undone by his descendants, as that of Charlesmagne would be. But at least government continued, and not all Gauls could afford the polygamy and brutality of their kings.

"The apparent autocracy of the monarch was limited by the power of jealous nobles. He rewarded their services in administration and war with estates on which they were practically sovereign. On these great demesnes began the feudalism that would fight the French monarch for a thousand years.

"Serfdom grew, and slavery received a new lease of life from new wars. Industry passed from the towns to the manors. The towns shrank in size and fell under the control of the feudal lords. Commerce was still active but hindered by unstable currencies, highway brigandage, and the rise of feudal tolls.

"Famine and pestilence fought successfully against the eager reproductiveness of men."

"Men must find some substitute for elections. "Serfdom? Slavery? Torture? Assassination?

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
October 8, 2004 - 03:18 am
I prefer Italian and French operas.

I guess Hitler knew what he was talking about. Churchill also.

Malryn (Mal)
October 8, 2004 - 06:29 am
Click here and scroll down to see a genealogy chart and timeline of Merovingian kings

Malryn (Mal)
October 8, 2004 - 06:42 am
Some of you may know that I majored in music in college. When I was a Junior, I had the choice of an in-depth study of Richard Wagner or an in-depth study of Giuseppe Verdi. Though I knew some of his music and had sung arias by Wagner, I chose to study the life and works of Verdi, some of which I had also sung.

Wagner's music is too heavy and harmonically cluttered for me. I can't imagine sitting through a performance of "The Ring", much less even listening to recordings of it. My apologies to the professor who conducted the course, who often showed up to teach after a night of listening to Wagnerian opera and not-so-light drinking.

There was another factor that played a part in my dislike of this composer. His anti-Semitism always bothered me.

Mal

Fifi le Beau
October 8, 2004 - 08:41 am
Here are some reviews of Wagners work during his lifetime. Perhaps he even read some of them.

There is no law against composing music when one has no ideas whatsoever. The music of Wagner, therefore, is perfectly legal...... The National, Paris, 1850

The prelude to Tristan and Isolde sounded as if a bomb had fallen into a large music factory and had thrown all the notes into confusion............The Tribune, Berlin, 1871

The prelude to Tristan and Isolde reminds me of the Italian painting of the martyr whose intestines are slowly being unwound from his body on a reel.........Eduard Hanslick 1868

Wagner drives the nail into your head with swinging hammer blows........P.A. Fiorentino 1867

Fifi

winsum
October 8, 2004 - 11:19 am
is gorgeous moving music...but then I have a very hard head... wagners piano conpositions were beyond my abilities. very complex with much INTERESTING harmony which I especially like. disinence is my bag. . . claire

Malryn (Mal)
October 8, 2004 - 01:24 pm
I never would have guessed that dissonance is your thing, CLAIRE. I'll take one of those 12 tone masters like Stravinsky or Shostakovich, or something consonant and dissonant at the same time by Poulenc or Bartok. Wagner is too Merovingian warlike and aggressive for me.

Mal

winsum
October 8, 2004 - 01:28 pm
I like these too. Stravinsky or Shostakovich, or something consonant and dissonant at the same time by Poulenc or Bartok



I studied composition for about six months with Matt Doran who was the comp teacher and orcheral director at mnt st. mary's college in the santa monica mountains. and learned all the stuff you are suposed to know for harmonic composition and then tossed it all out. the thing I remembered is that differnt kinds of dissonances work as harmony..more makes less seem to be haroniuc...I miss my piano but one fun thing to do was to play white notes in on hand and black in the other and take off. try it some time. . if you still have a piano. claire

Malryn (Mal)
October 8, 2004 - 01:35 pm
CLAIRE, you studied composition for only six months? Scarcely enough time to get into the good stuff. I studied composition with composer, Alvin Etler, among others. There's plenty of dissonance in Etler's work, as you probably know.

I wonder if there was any music to speak of in these Dark Ages we're talking about? I'm going to find out.

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
October 8, 2004 - 02:18 pm
"The gradual decline of Rome after 200 A.D. took place as the popularity of Christianity was increasing. The emperor Constantine I, who ruled from 306 to 337 A.D., adopted Christianity and legalized it for the first time in the Roman empire. Rome had for centuries exerted a peaceful and unifying influence on Europe but that was gradually disintegrating as barbarians increasingly threatened the security of the empire. When the Roman empire was permanently divided in 395 A.D., Christianity became the only major cultural force unifying the still vital eastern empire in Byzantium with the rapidly dissolving western empire in Europe. By the time the last Roman emperor, the young Romulus Augustulus, was finally deposed in 476, the papacy had established itself in Rome and was asserting jurisdiction over the Christian church.

"The music of the Christian church was for centuries the only cultivated art music in existence in Europe. Early Christian music, largely monophonic chant influenced by the Jewish cantorial tradition, was entirely vocal as the church attempted to purge the masses of the instrumental music associated with competing religions. Latin translations by Boethius (circa 480-524) and Cassiodorus (circa 490-585) of Greek literature on music theory also contributed to the theoretical foundations of early Christian chant. It is from these origins that the history of western art music properly begins."

Source:

Music in Ancient Times

robert b. iadeluca
October 8, 2004 - 04:07 pm
Visigothic Spain

456-711

robert b. iadeluca
October 8, 2004 - 04:21 pm
"In 420, as we have seen, the Visigoths of Gaul recaptured Spain from the Vandals and returned it to Rome. But Rome could not defend it. Eithteen years later the Suevi emerged from their hills in the northwest and overran the peninsula

"The Visigoths under Theodoric II (456) and Euric (466) came down again across the Pyrenees, reconquered most of Spain, and this time kept the country as their own.

"A Visigothic dynasty ruled Spain thereafter until the coming of the Moors.

"At Toledo the new monarchy built a splendid capital and gathered an opulent court. Athanagild (564-7) and Leovigild (568-86) were strong rulers who defeated Frank invaders in the north and Byzantine armies in the south. It was the wealth of Athanagild that won for his daughters the privilege of being murdered as Frank queens.

"In 589 King Recared changed his faith and that of most Visigoths in Spain, from Arian to orthodox Christianity. Perhaps he had read the history of Alaric II. The bishops now became the chief support of the monarchy and the chief power in the state. By their superior education and organization they dominated the nobles who sat with them in the ruling councils of Toledo. Although the king's authority was theoretically absolute, and he chose the bishops, these councils elected him and exacted pledges of policy in advance.

"Under the guidance of the clergy a system of laws was promulgated (634) which was the most competent and least tolerant of all the barbarian codes. It improved procedure by weighing the evidence of witnesses rather than the character certificates of friends. It applied the same laws to Romans and Visigoths alike and established the principle of equality before the law.

"But it rejected freedom of worship, demanded orthodox Christianity of all inhabitants, and sanctioned a long and bitter persecution of the Spanish Jews."

Two items come to my attention.

1 - In many previous messages I have made the statement that might appears to be right. Now, considering the greater education and organization that the clergy have over the state, right appears to be making might.

2 - I note that, as the decades and centuries pass, those believing in the divinity of Christ seem to be taking precedence over those who do not believe this.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 8, 2004 - 04:28 pm
Here is a map of Spain. Note TOLEDO in the dead center of the nation.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 8, 2004 - 05:08 pm
A view of TOLEDO.

Robby

JoanK
October 8, 2004 - 06:16 pm
And who can forget El Greco's view of Toledo (painted of course many centuries later)

TOLEDO

winsum
October 8, 2004 - 09:47 pm
that image is just plain goreous. I saved it. all of el greco is somehow surreal in it's distorsions. I love his skies. . and his elongated poetic people....

Sunknow
October 8, 2004 - 10:06 pm
Robby -- Your note that: "...as the decades and centuries pass, those believing in the divinity of Christ seem to be taking precedence over those who do not believe this".

It seems that time and again, someone in power comes along and "rejects freedom of worship, and/or demands Christianity". It is becoming clear that Christianity did not always survive down through the centuries, as the personal choice that we have been led to believe in, but more likely a choice to survive or not.

Someone here said "Follow the Leader"?....yes, I think that is what happened too many times.

Sun

Justin
October 9, 2004 - 12:07 am
El Greco, the Greek, has a style all his own. It is Mannered, Byzantine, and Venetian. It is not Spanish in any way. One can see Titian and Tintoretto and possibly Pontormo and Parmigianino in el Greco's work but not Berruguette or Gallegos who were his Spanish contemporaries. The style is Mannered in the sense that his figures are elongated with evident distortion. It is Byzantine in that El Greco's early training occurred in Crete his home community. And it is Venetian in color and because he was attached to Titian's shop he acquired the brush strokes of that master. He spent many hours in the Scoula Rocca admiring Tintoretto. Out of this mix of influence, comes a style that is peculiarly el Greco. He brings us the passionate religious emotion of S. Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross blended with the cold intellectual measures of St Ignacious and the Jesuits. This guy was a great painter.

Bubble
October 9, 2004 - 03:22 am
http://www.reuters.com/newsChannel.jhtml;jsessionid=Y3D1MC1JMJ2QQCRBAEKSFFA?type=oddlyEnoughNews

Monks Seek Homes for St Bernard Rescue Dogs

The dogs' history is entwined with that of the pass, where the Romans first built a temple to Jupiter as they marched north to conquer Europe, and where Charlemagne, Hannibal and Napoleon all left footprints in the snow.

St Bernard himself built a hospice on the spot in the 11th century, and a community of monks formed to aid travelers and rescue avalanche victims.

Éloïse De Pelteau
October 9, 2004 - 04:40 am
Bubble, I saw that on television and it is sad that they have to find outside help because there are now only 4 monks training the dogs. The hospice will not shut down, but funding is needed to continue on this age old St. Bernard rescue dog training hospice. The monks said that the new people will have to follow the same training methods as the monks have done in the past. I hope that they find an organization interested in this.

Eloïse

robert b. iadeluca
October 9, 2004 - 04:41 am
Durant continues:-

"Through the influence of the Church, which retained Latin in her sermons and liturgy, the Visigoths, within a century after their conquest of Spain, forgot their Germanic speech and corrupted the Latin of the peninsula into the masculine power and feminine beauty of the Spanish tongue. Monastic and episcopal schools provided education, mostly ecclesiastical but partly classical. Academies rose at Vaclara, Toledo, Saragossa, and Seville. Poetry was encouraged, drama was denounced as obscene -- which it was.

"The only name surviving from the literature of Gothic Spain is that of Isidore of Seville (c.560-636). An edifying legend tells how a Spanish lad, reproved for mental sluggishness, ran away from home and, tired with wandering, sat down by a well. His eye was caught by the deep furrow in a stone at the edges. A passing maiden explained that the furrow was worn by the attrition of the rope that lowered and raised the bucket. Said Isidore to himself:-'If by daily use the soft rope could penetrate the stone, surely perseverence could overcome the dullness of my brain.' He returned to his father's house and became the learned Bishop of Seville.

"Actually we know little of his life. Amid the chores of a conscientious cleric he found time to write half a dozen books. Perhaps as an aid to memory he compiled through many years a medley of passages on all subjects from pagan and Christian authors. His friend Braulio, Bishop of Saragossa, urged him to publish these excerpts.

"Yielding, he transformed them into one of the most influential books of the Middle Ages -- Etymologiarum sive originum libri xx (Twenty books of Etymologies or Origins) -- now a volume of 900 octavo pages. It is an encyclopedia but not alphabetically arranged. It deals successively with grammar, rhetoric, and logic as the 'trivium' -- then with medicine, law, chronology, theology, anatomy, physiology, zoology, cosmography, physical geography, architecture, surveying, mineralogy, agriculture, war, sports, ships, costumes, furniture, domestic utensils -- and under each topic it defines and seeks the origin of the basic terms.

"Man, we learn, is called homo because God made him from the earth (humus). The knees are genus because in the foetus they lie opposite the cheeks (genae).

"Isidore was an industrious, if indiscriminate, scholar. He knew considerable Greek, was familiar with Lucretius (rarely mentioned in the Middle Ages), and preserved in extracts many passages of pagan literature that would otherwise have been lost. His work is a farrago of weird etymologies -- incredible miracles -- fanciful allegorical interpretations of the Scriptures -- science and history distorted to prove moral principles -- and factual errors that a little observation would have set straight.

"His book stands as a lasting monument to the ignorance of his time."

Let's see, now. What has Durant taught me here? The Spanish language was created by Germans who couldn't speak Latin properly. Hmm-m-m.

And that Isidore's work is a farrago of weird etymologies. I wonder -- what is the origin of the word "farrago?" What is farrago? Oh, my brain, my brain! I feel an attack of mental sluggishness. Perhaps there is a maiden nearby to help me.

Robby

kidsal
October 9, 2004 - 05:04 am
Latin -- mishmash, medley, mixture. Also fodder for cattle.

robert b. iadeluca
October 9, 2004 - 05:56 am
Kidsal, welcome to our discussion group! Share with us your thoughts regarding the comments of Durant.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 9, 2004 - 06:29 am
Here are further details about ISIDORE.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 9, 2004 - 06:40 am
Click HERE for historic details showing the development of the Spanish language.

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
October 9, 2004 - 07:01 am
Welcome Kidsal, that was interesting, tell us more.

When I was in Spain, my untrained ear did not detect a resemblance between Spanish and Italian very much as Bubble would perhaps be more likely to hear as she is multilingual, but the more I think about it the more it resembles Arabic because of the way they pronounce their 's' as 'th' in English. Also their 'j' as 'h' as in Cartahena for instance. Perhaps it is more in the spoken Spanish than in the written one that it sounded Arabic to me. I am no expert.

Eloïse

moxiect
October 9, 2004 - 08:32 am


Eloise, Spanish is one of the Seven Romance Languages as is French and Italian, Portugese, Romania and I can't remember the other two! These seven languages are based on Latin and my understanding is that these languages also include what is called "Vulgar Latin" which as Kidsal says is a mishmash or half of pure latin the other being "different dialects" so that all could understand one another.

Welcome Kidsal.

Bubble
October 9, 2004 - 09:18 am
Eloise, I see more resemblance between Spanish and Italian than with Arabic, so much so that at times I hesitate if a word I use is Spanish or Italian. But of course there are many words with arabic roots.

The Spanish I understand best is Castiliano, which is very similar to the Ladino that Sephardic Jews speak. I find it very difficult to understand Andalusian for example. In Italy I can undersatand the Italian spoken in Milano or Roma but I am totaly lost with the Napolitana.

Robby, Isidoro seems to have lead an examplary full life. I wonder which of his actions qualified him and his brothers and sister to sainthood? Is it that after a life of good deeds and piety their body does not decay ?

robert b. iadeluca
October 9, 2004 - 09:59 am
It is not my intent to jump ahead a thousand years but, in reading about ISAAC NEWTON today I learned that he spent much time reading the Bible and followed Arianism, not believing in the Trinity. I also read that he kept these beliefs to himself.

Robby

HubertPaul
October 9, 2004 - 10:14 am
ST ISIDORE, BISHOP OF SEVILLE-636 A.D. Feast: April 4 : ..................”All who are employed in the ......................or of an exterior active life, must always remember that action and contemplation ought to be so constantly intermingled, that the former be always animated and directed by the latter, and amid the exterior labors of the active life, we constantly enjoy the interior repose of the contemplative.....”

Now there is some ‘Wisdom’.

winsum
October 9, 2004 - 11:05 am
I won't tell anyone...go ahead -- jump

Bubble
October 9, 2004 - 12:34 pm
Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night:
God said, Let Newton be! and all was light.
—Alexander Pope

It was wiser for sure to keep his belief to himself and to research Natures's laws.

robert b. iadeluca
October 9, 2004 - 12:49 pm
Ostrogothic Italy

493-536

robert b. iadeluca
October 9, 2004 - 01:22 pm
"When Attila's empire crumbled at his death (453) the Ostrogoths whom he had subdued regained their independence. The Byzantine emperors paid them to drive other German barbarians westward, rewarded them with Pannonia, and took Theodoric, the seven-year-old son of their King Theodemir to Constantinople as a hostage for Ostrogothic fidelity.

"In eleven years at the Byzantine court Theodoric acquired intelligence without education, absorbed the arts of war and government, but apparently never learned to write. He won the admiration of the Emperor Leo I. When Theodemir died (475), Leo recognized Theodoric as king of the Ostrogoths.

"Leo's successor Zeno, fearful that Theodoric might trouble Byzantium, suggested to him the conquest of Italy. Odoacer had formally acknowledged -- actually ignored -- the Eastern emperors. Theodoric, Zeno hoped, might bring Italy back under Byzantine rule. In any case the two leaders of dangerous tribes would amuse each other while Zeno studied theology.

"Theodoric liked -- some say propounded -- the idea. As Zeno's patricius he led the Ostrogoths, including 20,000 warriors, across the Alps (488). The orthodox bishops of Italy, disliking Odoacer's Arianism, supported the Arian invader as representing an almost orthodox emperor.

"With their help Theodoric broke Odoacer's sturdy resistance in five years of war and persuaded him to a compromise peace. He invited Odoacer and his son to dine with him at Ravenna, fed them generously, and slew them with his own hand (493).

"So treacherously began one of the most enlightened reigns in history.

"A few campaigns brought under Theodoric's rule the western Balkans, southern Italy, and Sicily. He maintained a formal subordination to Byzantium, struck coins only in the emperor's name, and wrote with due deference to the Senate that still sat in Rome. He took the title of rex or king. But this term, once so hateful to Romans, was now generally applied to rulers of regions that acknowledged the sovereignty of Byzantium.

"He accepted the laws and institutions of the late Western Empire, zealously protected its monuments and forms, and devoted his energy and intelligence to restoring orderly government and economic prosperity among the people whom he had conquered.

"He confined his Goths to police and militry sevice and quieted their grumbling with ample pay. Administration and the courts remained in Roman hands. Two-thirds of the soil of Italy was left to the Roman population -- one third was distributed among the Goths. Even so, not all the arable land was tilled.

"Theodoric ransomed Roman captives from other nations and settled them as peasant proprietors in Italy. The Pontine Marshes were drained and returned to cultivation and health.

"Believing in a regulated economy, Theodoric issued an 'Edict Concerning Prices to be Maintained at Ravenna.' We do not know what prices were decreed. We are told that the cost of food, in Theodoric's reign, was one third lower than before. This may have been due less to regulation than to peace. He reduced governmental personnel and salaries, ended state subsidies to the Church, and kept taxes low.<P"His revenues nevertheless sufficed to repair much of the damage that invaders had done to Rome and Italy, and to erect at Ravenna a modest palace and the churches of Sant' Apollinare and San Vitale. Verona, Pavia, Naples, Spoleto, and other Italian cities recovered under his rule all the architectural splendor of their brightest days. Although an Arian, Theodoric protected the orthodox Church in her property and worship.

"His minister Cassiodorus, a Catholic phrased in memorable words a policy of religious freedom:-'We cannot command religion, for no one can be forced to believe against his will.'"

And so (if I have this straight) an emperor who did not believe in the divinity of Christ, conquered a territory where the populace did, then not only helped repair what they lost during the war but, in addition, gave them freedom to believe in the Trinity. In his reign State did not interfere with the Church.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 9, 2004 - 01:35 pm
Here is an excellent simply-worded piece about THEODORIC.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 9, 2004 - 01:43 pm
Here is an excellent description of the OSTROGOTHS. It's hard for me to envision an Italy ruled by a Germanic emperor. I wonder if Hitler read history.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 9, 2004 - 02:00 pm
This ARTICLE from this morning's NY Times is off-topic and yet undoubtedly is of interest to all of us here as we are discussing a book about Faith.

Your comments are invited. The usual ground rules apply.

Robby

3kings
October 9, 2004 - 07:14 pm
The Pontine Marshes, often mentioned by Durant, brought up to date. :- The Appian Way, a Roman-built road, passes through the region. In pre-Roman and early Roman times the area was populated and fertile, but it was later abandoned because of the malaria in its unhealthful marshlands. The Roman emperors Trajan and Theodoric and several popes started reclamation works, but a drainage system was not completed until the 1930s under Mussolini. The large estates in the area were then broken into lots, and farmers from N Italy settled there permanently. (Google)=== Trevor

Fifi le Beau
October 9, 2004 - 09:24 pm
Robby in reading the NY Times article from your link on prayer and healing research, most of which is funded by the federal government, I was not surprised to find the John Templeton Foundation also listed.

The article states that Dr. Herbert Benson founder of the Mind/Body Institute received a $2.4 million grant from the John Templeton Foundation. Templeton funds projects that connect Science and Religion.

Templeton built a new research library at the University in Sewanee, and since it is nearby, we drove up to the dedication. It is a grand and majestic building and fits into the architectural style of the older buildings on campus. He was born and raised nearby and still has family here so we get a lot of write-ups about his activities.

Here is an article in Slate on Templeton.

http://slate.msn.com/id/1822/#ContinueArticle

Fifi

JoanK
October 10, 2004 - 12:26 am
Late comment on Spanish. What do those of you who know the language think of Durant's characterization: "the masculine power and feminine beauty of the Spanish tongue"?

Bubble
October 10, 2004 - 02:13 am
The power of self suggestion can be very strong. I link it to faith as well, but it is a big jump if we are going to affirm that prayers can heal, especially when there are so many intersessions (sp?). I have seen on Bulletin boards on the net: please pray for my cat who suffers from chronic kidney failure, pray for me to have good grades on my math exam tomorrow, pray for this or that. IMHO it is a bit infantile to hope that will work.

Then again I have seen here entire groups of grown men on the pavement, prayerbooks in hand, praying for the rain to fall. They did it in Roman times as well.

JoanK, I totally agree with that sentence. Just listen to the Romanzas Sepharadias, how melodious the words are and how sweet sounding. Then read aloud a text from Cervantes, or some poems on a warriors victory and they sound almost like Wagner music!

Ovillejos







¿Quién menoscaba mis bienes?
Desdenes.
¿Y quién aumenta mis duelos?
Los celos.

¿Y quién prueba mi paciencia?
Ausencia.
Deste modo en mi dolencia
ningún remedio se alcanza,
pues me matan mi esperanza:
Desdenes, Celos y Ausencia.



¿Quién me causa este dolor?
Amor.
¿Y quién mi gloria repugna?
Fortuna.
¿Y quién conciente mi duelo?
El Cielo.
Dese modo yo recelo
morir deste mal extraño,
pues se aunan en mi daño:
Amor, Fortuna, y el Cielo.



¿Quién mejorará mi suerte?
La Muerte.
¿Y el bien de amor, quién lo alcanza?
Mudanza.
¿Y sus males quién los cura?
Locura.
Dese modo no es cordura
querer curar la pasión
cuando los remedios son:
Muerte, Mudanza y Locura.



en: El Ingenioso Hidalgo Don Quijote de la Mancha



http://hp.fciencias.unam.mx/~emg/poemas/inmortal/

Lluvia







Siempre anhelo cantarte, lluvía mía;
lluvia de Abril, mimosa y pasajera,
lluvia de viento norte y altanera,
lluvia de invierno, repentina y fría.



Si tú vienes fresca en la primavera,
mi casa se inunda de aromas de flor,
mi verso se vuelve como una pradera,
oloroso a hierba, a nardos y a sol.



Si el viento te trae como furia y desgarras
mis techos, las plantas del viejo jardín,
yo encuentro en tu furia la paz de mi alma,
cerrando la puerta, prendiendo el candíl.



Si en invierno vienes, repentina y fría,
avivo la llama de mi gran pasión,
mi casa se vuelve isla de alegría,
y en la chimenea de leños fragantes
danzan en su fuego los grandes instantes
donde puse vida, alma y corazón.



Poemas Inmortales de María Fernanda
Found on the same site.

robert b. iadeluca
October 10, 2004 - 02:46 am
Fifi:-I read in its entirety your link to the article on Templeton. I found it ingriguing and believe that most participants here would find it of interest as we are spending a few months together examining Faith. Templeton, to quote the article, was trying to see the connection between soul and brain.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 10, 2004 - 03:24 am
"The career of Anicius Manlius Severinus Boethius (475?-524) paralleled that of Cassiodorus. except in longevity. Both were born of rich Roman families, served Theodoric as ministers, labored to build a bridge between paganism and Christianity, and wrote dreary books that were read and treasured for a thousand years.

"Boethius' father was consul in 483. His father-in-law, Symmacus the Younger, was descended from the Symmachus who had fought for the Altar of Victory. He received the best education that Rome could give, and then spent eighteen years in the schools of Athens.

"Returning to his Italian villas, he buried himself in study. Resolved to save the elements of a classical culture that was visibly dying, he gave his time -- the scholar's most grudging gift -- to summarizing in lucid Latin the works of Euclid on geometry -- of Nicomachus on arithmetic -- of Archimedes on mechanics -- of Ptolemy on astronomy. His translation of Aristotle's Organon, or logical treatises, and of Porphyry's Introduction to the Caegories of Aristotle provided the leading texts and ideas of the next seven centuries in logic, and set the stage for the long dispute between realism and nominalism.

"Boetrius tried his hand also at theology. In an essay on the Trinity he defended the orthodox Christian doctrine, and laid down the principle that where faith and reason conflict, faith should prevail.

"None of these writings repays reading today, but it would be hard to exaggerate their influence on medieval thought.

"Moved by his family's tradition of public service, Boethius dragged himself from these abstruse pursuits into the whirlpool of political life. He rose rapidly -- became consul, then patricius, then master of the offices -- i.e. prime minister (522). He distinguished himself by both his philanthropy and his eloquence. Men compared him with Demosthenes and Cicero.

"But eminence makes enemies. The Gothic officials at the court resented his sympathy with the Roman and the Catholic population, and aroused the suspicions of the King. Theodoric was now sixty-nine, failing in health and mind, wondering how to transmit in stability the rule of an Arian Gothic family over a nation nine tenths Roman and eight tenths Catholic.

"He had reason to believe that both the aristocracy and the Church were his foes, who impatiently awaited his death. In 523 Justinian, Byzantine regent, issued an idict banishing all Manicheans from the Empire and barring from civil or military office all pagans and heretics -- including all Arians exept Goths.

"Theodoric suspected that the exception was intended to disarm him but would be withdrawn at the first opportunity. He judged the decree a poor return for the full liberties that he had accorded to the orthodox creed in the West. Had he not raised to the highest offices the same Boethius who had written an anti-Arian tract on the Trinity? In this very year 523 he had given to the church of St. Peter two magnificent chandeliers of solid silver as a gesture of courtesy to the pope.

"However, he had offended a great part of the population by protecting the Jews. When mobs destroyed synagogues in Milan, Genoa, and Rome, he had rebult the synagogues at public expense."

A rift begins to appear between the German king, who does not believe in the Trinity, and the Roman populace and clerics who do. Any thoughts here?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 10, 2004 - 04:50 am
The orthodox Christians in Rome (those who believed in the Trinity) were hostile toward the Jews. They were angry that Emperor Theodoric (an arian Christian who did not believe in the Trinity) had rebuilt the synagogues. This ARTICLE has a number of questions and answers which outline why the Jews did not believe in a Trinity. Question Number One gets right to the point. Bubble might have some thoughts to share.

Robby

Bubble
October 10, 2004 - 07:58 am
Sorry, Robby, I have not much to contribute.
Being a Jew, I have known there is one and only one God. That was clear, that was simple. To believe in a Trinity or see Jesus as a god would have made me a Christian... For me he was a good Jew, could be called a kind of prophet maybe, but all the rest was added later.

The erasing of sins by a priest sounded very attractive but did not seem to be divine in inspiration... That is my own thoughts of course, and I can accept others disagreeing. After all our eating habits must also seem queer to other faiths.

I never was an authority on religion. It has very little importance or impact on my life. I never felt the need of it as support, help or whatever. It might have been different had I suffered from overt antisemitism. I have had a charmed life: unhurt by wars or blind hatred. As it is, I believe in the good that should be in us all and in some higher aspiration found in all of us. Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
October 10, 2004 - 08:28 am
Thank you very much, Bubble, for your wise comments. i don't believe that any one of us here is presenting him/herself as an "expert" in the field of religion. I asked because I am coming to understand (through the comments of Durant) that the belief or non-belief in the Trinity had more effect on historical events than I had any idea.

Robby

winsum
October 10, 2004 - 08:34 am
as a secular jew I go along with you and as a person who lately is interested in poetry here is a site of a good english poet . shakespeare. . . http://www.shakespeare-online.com/sonnets/ Jan sends me poems now and then and this is his find. . . claire

robert b. iadeluca
October 10, 2004 - 09:39 am
Claire, Annafair leads a wonderful discussion on Poetry. I'm sure she would appreciate your participation. Click HERE to become part of their group.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 10, 2004 - 11:27 am
"Word reached Theodoric of a senatorial conspiracy to depose him. Its leader, he was told, was Albinus, president of the Senate and friend of Boethius. Boethius denied all charges but was arrested (523).

"Theodoric sought some understanding with the Emperor. Justin replied that he had a right to refuse office to men whose loyalty he could not trust, and that the order of society required unity of belief. The Arians of the East appealed to Theodoric to protect them. He asked Pope John I to go to Constantinople and intercede for the dimissed Arians. The Pope protested that this was no mission for one pledged to destroy heresy but Theodoric insisted.

"John was received with such honors in Constantinople and returned with such empty hands, that Theodoric accused him of treason and flung him into jail where, a year later, he died.

"Meanwhile Albinus and Boethius had been tried before the King, adjudged guilty, and sentenced to death. The frightened Senate passed decrees repudiating them, confiscating their property, and approving the penalty. On October 23, 524, his executioners came. They tied a cord around his head and tightened it until his eyes burst from their sockets. They they beat him with clubs until he died. A few months later Symmachus was put to death.

"According to Procopius, Theodoric wept for the wrong he had done to Boethius and Symmachus. In 526 he followed his victims to the grave.

"His kingdom died soon after him. He had nominated his grandson Athalaric to succeed him but Athalaric being only ten years old, his mother Amalasuntha ruled in his name. She was a woman of considerable education and many accomplishments, a friend and perhaps a pupil of Cassiodorus, who now served her as he had served her father.

"But she leaned too much toward Roman ways to plese her Gothic subjects. They objected to the classical studies with which, in their views, she was enfeebling the King. She yielded the boy to Gothic tutors. He took to sexual indulgence and died at eighteen. Amalasuntha associated her cousin Theodahad with her on the throne, having pledged him to let her rule.

"Presently he deposed and imprisoned her. She appealed to Justinian, now Byzantine Emperor, to come to her aid. Belisarius came."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 10, 2004 - 11:29 am
"The most dangerous heresy is that of a sovereign who separates himself from part of his subjects because they believe not according to his belief."

- - - Theodoric

winsum
October 10, 2004 - 12:52 pm
thankyou for annamaries poetry site. I'm much happier there than I am with the age of faith ... seeya later (G)

robert b. iadeluca
October 10, 2004 - 01:02 pm
Here is the story of the arduous trip of POPE JOHN I to Constantinople.

Robby

Justin
October 10, 2004 - 01:04 pm
Theodoric's message about the heresy of separation applies so pointedly to the current American administration I can not keep myself from saying it.

robert b. iadeluca
October 10, 2004 - 01:18 pm
Yes, Justin, I had that in mind when I printed the quote. Somehow I thought you might have the strength to refrain.

Robby

winsum
October 10, 2004 - 01:52 pm
if yo had done this "The most dangerous heresy is that of a sovereign who separates himself from part of his subjects because they believe not according to his belief."

- - - Theodoric
maybe justin wouldn't have said it out loud although I'm sure he would have noticed. tsk tsk. . .

robert b. iadeluca
October 10, 2004 - 01:55 pm
Claire;-Welcome back to Story of Civilization!

Robby

winsum
October 10, 2004 - 05:09 pm
thanks for the poetry link I do like it, but, the discrption at the top covers a much broader spectrum than what we have seen lately and since sept first.

The Age of Faith covers the economy, politics, law, government, religion, morals, manners, education, literature, science, philosophy, and art of the Christians, Moslems, and Jews

much of what we have seen could be related XXX for violence and torture....so I'm a little sqeamish, but that is more objectionable than an occassional reference to our modern times. . . .claire

Malryn (Mal)
October 10, 2004 - 06:24 pm

"One of the lessons of history is that nothing is often a good thing to do and always a clever thing to say."

~Will Durant

Malryn (Mal)
October 10, 2004 - 06:28 pm
"Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance."

~Will Durant

Malryn (Mal)
October 10, 2004 - 06:30 pm
"Civilization begins with order, grows with liberty, and dies with chaos."

~Will Durant

JoanK
October 10, 2004 - 06:39 pm
CLAIRE: I live happily in both Annafair's poetry site and here. I hope you can too. They appeal to different parts of me. I get tired of all these Kings (and Queens) killing each other off too; the discussion has highs and lows.

Éloïse De Pelteau
October 10, 2004 - 06:58 pm
Mal, You are so clever. "Civilization begins with order, grows with liberty, and dies with chaos." especially this of Durant. Where are we now?

Justin
October 10, 2004 - 07:46 pm
Sometimes I find it very difficult not to say the obvious. I hope you will forgive me. I am contrite.

3kings
October 11, 2004 - 01:00 am
A lot of tongue in cheek, to and froing here in recent posts. LOL ===Trevor

Malryn (Mal)
October 11, 2004 - 08:32 am


"Procopius of Caesarea (500 ? - 565 ?), in Palestine, was the leading secular historian of the 6th century AD.

"The first seven books of his History of Justinian's Wars, which were published as a unit, seem to have been largely completed by 545, but were updated to mid-century before publication, for the latest event mentioned belongs to early 551. Later, Procopius added an eighth book which brings the history to 552,
"The Secret History covers the same years as the seven books of the History of Justinian's Wars and purports to have been written after they were published. The view that is generally accepted dates its composition to 550.

"The Secret History reveals a man who had become deeply disillusioned with the emperor Justinian and his wife, Theodora, as well as Belisarius, his old commander, and Antonina, Belisarius' wife. The De Aedificiis tells us nothing further about Belisarius but it takes a sharply different attitude towards Justinian. He is presented as a caring emperor who built churches for the glory of God and defenses for the safety of his subjects and who showed particular concern for the water supply. Theodora, who was dead when this panegyric was written, is mentioned only briefly but Procopius' praise of her beauty is fulsome. The panegyric was likely written at Justinian's behest, however, and we may doubt if its sentiments are sincere. We do not know when Procopius himself died but in 562 there was an urban prefect of Constantinople who happened to be called 'Procopius'. In that year, Belisarius was implicated in a conspiracy and was brought before this urban prefect. There is no solid evidence to identify the prefect with the historian but readers of the Secret History's indictment of Belisarius must wonder if the irony of history arranged this final encounter between Procopius and his erstwhile commander.

"Procopius belongs to the school of secular historians who continued the traditions of the Second Sophistic; they wrote in Attic Greek, their models were Herodotus and especially Thucydides, and their subject matter was secular history. They avoided vocabulary unknown to Attic Greek and would insert an explanation when they had to use contemporary words. Thus Procopius explains to his readers that ekklesia, meaning a Christian church, is the equivalent of a temple or shrine and that monks are 'the most temperate of Christians...whom men are accustomed to call monks.' " (Wars 2.9.14; 1.7.22)

". . . . Procopius excludes Christianity from his work so resolutely that Edward Gibbon considered him a pagan, but that view is no longer held. He indicated (Secret History 26.18) that he planned to write an ecclesiastical history himself and, if he had, he would probably have followed the rules of that genre. But, as far as we know, the ecclesiastical history remained unwritten."

Source:

About Procopius

Picture of Amalasuntha

Scrawler
October 11, 2004 - 12:03 pm
"Civilization begins with order, grows with liberty, and dies with chaos." - Will Durant

I don't agree with this quote. I think civilization - is marked by the development and use of a written language and by advances in the arts and sciences, government etc. But it does not begin with order; rather it begins with chaos and from chaos a rebirth emerges into order and than civilization grows with liberty. Civilization dies when liberty is taken away. You might also say that civilization advances when change is accepted by the people.

winsum
October 11, 2004 - 12:10 pm
sounds good. . . I think that our culteral heritage is the driving force of civilization. . . we learn from the past and our human creative energies are constantly affecting our present and our future. It's almost organic, an interaction betwen us and our world which promotes change. civilization can be destroyed by this process as well. . . claire

Justin
October 11, 2004 - 02:57 pm
SCrawler: The Durants would not disagree with you in substance only in sequence. They are saying that chaos ends when order begins and therefore the first sign of civilization is the appearance of order. The Durants are not so specific about political organization as you appear to be. They make the point that there must be some form of government. It could as well be a centralized dictatorship as a democratic society. Certainly one can not deny that growth in civilization comes as one outcome of a free people.

winsum
October 11, 2004 - 03:57 pm
when does civilization begin? I think maybe when two humans begin to depend upon each other for their survival. . . add a few more and it grows more complex etc. etc. expectations have to be met and so ORDER enters the picture. . . . Claire

robert b. iadeluca
October 11, 2004 - 04:34 pm
Justinian

527 - 565

robert b. iadeluca
October 11, 2004 - 04:56 pm
"In 408 Arcadius died and his son Theodosius II, aged seven, became Emperor of the East. Theodosius' sister Pulcheria, having the advantage of him by two years, undertook his education with such persistent solicitude that he was never fit to govern. He left his task to the praetorian prefect and the Senate while he copied and illuminated manuscripts. He seems never to have read the Code that preserves his name.

"In 414 Pulcheria assumed the regency at the age of sixteen and presided over the Empire for thirty-three years. She and her two sisters vowed themselves to virginity and appear to have kept their vows. They dressed with ascetic simplicity -- fasted -- sang hymns and prayed -- established hospitals, churches, and monasteries -- and loaded them with gifts.

"The palace was turned into a convent, into which only women and a few priests might enter. Amid all this sanctity Pulcheria, her sister-in-law Encocia, and their ministers governed so well that in all the forty-two years of Theodosius' vicarious reign the Eastern Empire enjoyed exceptional tranquiliity, while the Western was crumbling into chaos. The least forgotten event of this period was the publication of the Theodosian Code (438). In 420 a corps of jurists was commissioned to codify all laws enacted in the Empire since the accession of Constantine.

"The new code was accepted in both East and West and remained the law of the Empire until the greater codification under Justinian.

"Between Theodosius II and Justinian I the Eastern Empire had many rulers who in their day made great stir, but are now less than memories. The lives of great men all remind us how brief is immortality.

"Leo I (457-74) sent against Gaiseric (467) the greatest fleet ever assembled by a Roman government. It was defeated and destroyed.

"His son-in-law Zeno the Isaurian (474-91), anxious to quiet the Monophysites, caused a bitter schism between Greek and Latin Christianity by imperially deciding, in his 'unifying' letter, the Henoticon, that there was but one nature in Christ.

"Anastasius (491-518) was a man of ability, courage, and good will. He restored the finances of the state by wise and economical administration -- reduced taxes -- abolished the contests of men with wild beasts at the games -- made Constantinople almost impregnable by building the 'Long Walls' for forty miles from the Sea of Marmora to the Black Sea -- expended state funds on many other useful public works -- and left in the treasury 320,000 pounds of gold ($134,400,000) which made possible the conquests of Justinian.

"The populace reesented his economies and his Monophysite tendencies. A mob besieged his palace and killed three of his aides. He appeared to them in all the dignity of his eighty years, and offered to resign if the people could agree on a successor. It was an impossible condition and the crowd ended by begging him to retain the crown.

"When presently he died, the throne was usurped by Justin, an illiterate senator (518-27), who so loved his septuagenarian ease that he left the management of the Empire to his brilliant regent, and nephew Justinian."

A long series of incompetent men but a successful reign by a woman for thirty-three years.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
October 11, 2004 - 07:37 pm
Roman coins of Pulcheria

Theodosian Code

Malryn (Mal)
October 11, 2004 - 07:54 pm
St. Pulcheria (399-453 A.D.)

"St. Helena, as mother of the Roman emperor Constantine, bore the honorary rank of Empress. But St. Pulcheria, eldest daughter of Emperor Arcadius of the Eastern Roman Empire, actually ruled her domain, and at the same time was defender of its Faith.

"When Arcadius died in 408, his son and successor, Theodosius II, was only seven years old. Pulcheria was six years older. In 414, when she still was only fifteen, but remarkably mature and capable, she was given the title 'Augusta' (Empress) and appointed regent, to act with and in the name of her brother. For ten years she and Theodosius ruled together. Pulcheria meanwhile took a private vow of virginity, and urged her sisters to do likewise. This was an act of political prudence as well as devotion for it reduced the number of Theodosius' nieces and nephews who might intrigue for his throne.

"Efficient Pulcheria trained her brother in piety and gentleness, but probably not enough in leadership; for the young emperor proved to be better at painting than at ruling. Indeed, his sister once showed him his political indifference by a test. She submitted to him a decree ordering her own execution. He signed it without reading. Then she showed him what a blunder he had committed.

"In 421, Theodosius married Eudokia; and two years later declared her 'Augusta', i.e., co-ruler as his sister had been. Eudokia was jealous of Pulcheria, and soon engineered her exile. The deposed Augusta accepted the exile without complaint or contest. In 441 Eudokia herself fell into disfavor and was exiled once and for all. Pulcheria was recalled to court around 449, although her status as ruler was not then restored.

"Hitherto, Theodosius II, in his typically careless way, had shown favor for the heresy of Nestorius, who was teaching that in Jesus after the incarnation there was not only a divine and human nature, but a divine and human person. On the other hand, Theodosius, in the late 440s, was wheedled into supporting the heresy of Monophysitism, which taught just the opposite: that in Jesus after the incarnation there was only one nature, a sort of amalgam of the divine and the human. Christian leaders, from the pope down, protested the emperor's protection of these errors. Fortunately, for the Faith, Theodosius II died of a hunting accident in 450.

"Pulcheria, now 51, was again proclaimed Augusta. She named the widowed general Marcian to be coruler with her. She married him on the understanding that he would respect her vow of virginity. Marcian and Pulcheria made a good team. One of their most important acts was to sponsor the fourth ecumenical council. Held at Chalcedon in 451, this council condemned both Nestorionism and Monophysitism.

"Like St. Helena, St. Pulcheria built many churches, three of them honoring the mother of God. As a Greek rather than a Latin, she encouraged the establishment of a university at Constantinople (now Istanbul) to foster Greek literary culture. It was, of course, expected of bishops then that they praise the Christian emperors and empresses. But the praise given to Pulcheria by St. Proclus, Pope St. Leo the Great, and the prelates attending the Council of Chalcedon, was no formality but a heartfelt tribute."

Source:

St. Pulcheria

3kings
October 11, 2004 - 08:10 pm
The most unkind cut of all from Durant :-"The lives of great men all remind us how brief is immortality." Now, that's clever....

This Justin was a senator, but illiterate, and it was Justinian, a nephew who is remembered as a brilliant Regent.

It is this similarity of names, even unto the present day (?), that gets me confused... (BG) === Trevor

Malryn (Mal)
October 11, 2004 - 08:10 pm
The link below takes you to a translation of The Secret History by Procopius. There is much in this book about Theodora and Justinian.
The Secret History by Procopius

Justin
October 11, 2004 - 09:28 pm
So there is a Justin and a Justinian. These fellows are in Constantinople, the eastern seat of the empire. The Justinian I have always assumed to be my forebear is a western emperor who codified some laws and married a beautiful prostitute. What better namesake could one have? These guys in the east are usurpers.

Justin
October 11, 2004 - 10:23 pm
There were so many heresies in the early centuries that it is easy to pass over their significance in history. First Arianism, dealing with definition of the Trinity and then Monophysism dealing with the nature of Jesus Christ became important challenges to Orthodoxy. Emperors and Popes rose and were deposed on these questions. Their nature is worthy of deeper examination than we are giving them here. Monophysitism never completely went away. It remains today in the Ehthiopian Church and in the Egyptian Church.

robert b. iadeluca
October 12, 2004 - 03:28 am
"Procopius, his historian and enemy, would have been dissatisfied with Justinian from birth, for the future emperor was born (482) of lowly Illyrian -- perhaps Slavic -- peasants near the ancient Sardica, the modern Sofia. His uncle Justin brought him to Constantinople and procured him a good education. Justinian so distinguished himself as an officer in the army, and as for nine yers aide and apprentice to Justin, that when the uncle died (527), the nephew succeeded him as emperor.

"He was now forty-five, of medium height and build, smooth shaven, ruddy faced, curly haired, with pleasant manners and a ready smile that could cover a multitude of aims. He was as abstemious as an anchorite, eating little and subsisting mostly on a vegetarian regimen. He fasted often, sometimes to exhaustion. Even during these fasts, he continued his routine of rising early, devoting himself to state affairs from early dawn to midday, and far into the night

"Frequently when his aides thought he had retired, he was absorbed in study, eager to become a musician and an architect -- a poet and a lawyer -- a theologian and a philosopher -- as well as an emperor.

"Nevertheless he retained most of the superstitions of his time. His mind was constantly active, equally at home in large designs and minute details. He was not physically strong or brave. He wished to abdicate in the early troubles of his reign, and never took the field in his many wars. Perhaps it was a defect of his amiability that he was easily swayed by his friends, and therefore often vacillated in policy. Frequently he subordinated his judgment to that of his wife.

"Procopius, who devoted a volume to Justinian's faults, called him 'insincere, crafty, hypocritical, dissembling his anger, double-dealing, clever, a perfect artist in acting out an opinion which he pretended to hold, and even able to produce tears to the need of the moment' But this might be a description o an able diplomat.

"Continues Procopius"-'He was a fickle friend, a truceless enemy, an ardent devotee of assassination and robbery.'

"Apparently he was these at times. But he was also capable of generosity and lenience. A general, Probus, was accused or reviling him and was tried for treason. When the report of the trial was laid before Justinian he tore it up and sent a message to Probus:-'I pardon you for your offense against me. Pray that God also may pardon you.'

"He bore frank criticism without resentment.'"

So there we are -- his various traits laid out before us by his historian. A mixture. A mishmash. A normal average human being?

Robby

Justin
October 12, 2004 - 12:06 pm
Yes, Procopius gives us the man I thought Justinian was. He was human. He strove to be a scholar as well as an emperor. He succeeded in some things. He failed in others.

Justin
October 12, 2004 - 12:47 pm
Looking back on the fourth and fifth centuries, we see the driving force in society to be the rise of Catholicism against its countervailing heresies. These people, both orthodox and heretical, are all talking about the nature and person of Jesus. Who was as history knew him a communistic revolutionary (messiah) who took up the message of John the Baptist and who told his desciples to leave family and responsibilities and to follow him. This was a man who was prosecuted and executed as a criminal by the Roman authorities.

But here we are in these centuries faced with questions of whether Jesus was the Christ, whether he was God and the Son of God and at once, as part of an indissoluble Trinity, God. And then there is the further question of his divinity and his humanity.Can he be at once, both man and divine? They are contradictory and from that comes the heresies.

If he was human in the passion, he suffered as a human and could not be divine. If he was divine in the passion he would not have suffered as a human. A terrible dilemma exists. Multiple Eclesiastical Councils tried to resolve the issue. War and deposition failed to resolve the issue. It separated east and west.

Doctrine today says it is possible for him to be both. In all this conflict over the nature and person of Jesus, we may recall that we knew him when he was human and talking to people by the roadside.

robert b. iadeluca
October 12, 2004 - 04:39 pm
"The most significant revolt of Justinian's reign came early (532) and nearly cost Justinian his life. The Greens and Blues -- the factions into which the people of Constantinople divided according to the dress of their favorite jockeys -- had brought their quarrels to the point of open violence. The streets of the capital had become unsfe and the well-to-do had to dress like paupers to avoid the nocturnal knife.

?Finally the government pounced down upon both factions, arresting several protagonists. The factions thereupoh united in an armed uprising against the government. Probably a number of senators joined in the revolt and proletarian discontent strove to make it a revolution. Prisons were invaded and their inmates freed, city police and officials were killed. Fires were started that burned down the church of St. Sophia and part of the emperor's palace.

"The crowd cried out 'Nika!' (victory) -- and so gave a name to the revolt. Drunk with success, it demanded the dismissal of two unpopular, perhaps oppressive, members of Justinian's council. He complied.

"Emboldened, the rebels persuaded Hypatius, of the senatorial class, to accept the throne. Against the pleading of his wife he accepted, and went amid the plaudits of the crowd to take the imperial seat at the Hippodrome games.

"Manwhile Justinian hid in his palace and meditated flight. The Empress Theodora dissuaded him and called for active resistance. Belisarius, leader of the army, took the assignment, assembled a number of Goths from his troops, led them to the Hippodrome, slaughtered 30,000 of the populace, arrested Hypatius, and had him killed in jail.

"Justinian restored his dismissed officials, pardoned the conspiring senators, and restored to the children of Hypatius their confiscated property.

"For the next thirty years Justinian was secure, but only one person seems to have loved him."

Once again, a woman leads the way, this time the actions resulting in the deaths of 30,000 people.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 12, 2004 - 06:20 pm
This ARTICLE contains a picture and tells about the magnificent Hippodrome which seated a quarter of a million people and featured the Greens and the Blues.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
October 12, 2004 - 08:12 pm
THEODORA

"Details of Theodora's early life are somewhat sketchy. While a few early historians believe she was born on the island of Crete off the southern coast of Greece, others list her birthplace as Syria. Her father, Acacius, was a bear trainer at the hippodrome in Constantinople. The hippodrome was a gigantic stadium where chariot races, circuses, and plays were held. After her father's death, Theodora began to work on the stage in the hippodrome as a mime. She soon became a full-fledged actress. At the time, 'actress' was synonymous with 'prostitute.' On the stage, she was noted for her nude entertainment. Off the stage, she was noted for her wild parties.

"When she was 16, Theodora traveled to northern Africa as the companion of an official named Hecebolus. She stayed with him for almost four years before heading back to Constantinople. On the way, she settled briefly in Alexandria. While there, she adopted the beliefs of Monophysitism. This form of Christianity held that Jesus of Nazareth was wholly divine, not both human and divine as orthodox Christians believed.

"After her conversion to Monophysitism, Theodora gave up her former lifestyle. She returned to Constantinople in 522, settled in a house near the palace, and made a living spinning wool. It was here that she drew the attention of Justinian. He was 40 years old at the time, almost twice her age. Justinian wanted to marry her, but as heir to the throne of his uncle, Emperor Justin I, he could not. An old Roman law forbade government officials from marrying actresses. Justin finally repealed this law the following year, and Justinian and Theodora were married in 525. On April 4, 527, Justin crowned Justinian and Theodora emperor and empress.

"It was during the Nika revolt that Theodora proved her leadership. Two rival political groups existed in the empire ó Blues and Greens. Disagreements over Monophysitism and orthodox Christianity had further separated them. In January 532, while staging a chariot race in the hippodrome, these two groups started a riot. They set many public buildings on fire and proclaimed a new emperor. Unable to control the mob, Justinian and many of his advisors prepared to flee. At a meeting of the government council, Theodora courageously spoke out against leaving the palace. She thought it was better to die as a ruler than to live as nothing. Her determined speech convinced all. Justinian's generals then attacked the hippodrome, killing over 30,000 rebels. Historians agree that her courage saved Justinian's crown.

"Following the Nika revolt, Theodora and Justinian rebuilt Constantinople.They built aqueducts, bridges, and more than 25 churches. The greatest of these is the Hagia Sophia, Church of the Holy Wisdom. It is considered to be one of the architectural wonders of the world. Its dome measures 108 feet in diameter and its crown rises 180 feet above the ground. Rich marbles and mosaics of emerald green, rose, white, blood red, black, and silver decorate its walls. In the fifteenth century it became an Islamic mosque; today it is a museum.

"Theodora had laws passed that prohibited forced prostitution and that granted women more rights in divorce cases. She also established homes for prostitutes. Even though Justinian supported orthodox Christianity, Theodora continued to follow Monophysitism. She provided shelter in the palace for Monophysite leaders and founded a Monophysite monastery in Sycae, across the harbor from Constantinople. After her death, Justinian worked to find harmony between the Monophysites and the orthodox Christians in the empire"

Source:

Empress Theodora

Malryn (Mal)
October 12, 2004 - 08:16 pm
Mosaic portrait of Justinian: Church of San Vitale, Ravenna

Malryn (Mal)
October 12, 2004 - 08:19 pm
Mosaic portrait of Theodora. Church of San Vitale, Ravenna

Fifi le Beau
October 12, 2004 - 08:20 pm
Durants writing about the revolt of gangs with their own colors taken from their favorite jockeys, the Emperor wanting to flee, his wife calling for resistance and attack, the greens and blues taking control and naming their own emperor, gathering in the largest arena ever built to celebrate, the attack on the arena by the emperor's men and the slaughter of 30,000 is why I read non fiction.

In Robby's link it is said that the Emperor had an elevated seat in the loge of the Hippodrome that could be reached from the Imperial palace. That being the case, the greens and blues along with their new emperor should have gone straight through the loge to the Imperial palace and taken command there. If only Hypatius had the support of his wife, perhaps she would have pointed out the mistake of celebrating in a building connected to your enemy next door.

I find these scenes intriguing and even comical when you consider the well-to-do dressing like paupers to avoid the nocturnal knife. Green or blue was probably not their color of choice.

The four bronze horse statues that once sat at the entrance of the Hippodrome were removed and taken to San Marco church in Venice, Italy during the crusades. There must be some deep seated psychological reasoning behind the removal of statuary from one place to another. What connection bronze horses from a race track could have to a church eludes me.

Truth is shorter than fiction, and twice as fascinating.

Fifi

Malryn (Mal)
October 12, 2004 - 08:23 pm
Scroll down to see pictures of the Hagia Sophia in Constantinople

Malryn (Mal)
October 12, 2004 - 08:27 pm
Bronze horses. Church of San Marco, Venice

Justin
October 12, 2004 - 09:48 pm
Mal; The portraits of Justinian and Theodora are group portraits and the fun is in the groups. If you can show both mosaics in full we can enjoy the complete story.

These are apse mosaics in the Church of San Vitale in Ravenna, Italy. The setting is a Mass with a royal procession as in the Ara Pacis which we saw and talked about earlier. It is the moment of the Offertory. The moment when the bread and wine becomes the Body and Blood of Jesus. Justinian carries the bread and Theodora the wine. The procession is in progress. Theodora and her retinue will follow the retinue of the King. On the left a court figure holds the curtain for her and her party to follow in the procession.

Justinian is in the exact center of the depiction showing his hieratic centralizing power. He is depicted as a Priest/King and that role is emphasized by the appearance of a halo in back of his head. His role as king is signified by the wearing of purple.

Hieratics is one of the characteristics of Byzantine art. It comes into play in these mosaics to show the relative importance of each of the figures. The figures to the right of Justinian are figures of his staff, the clergy, and the army with the Chi Rho symbol on a shield. The figures to the left of Justinian are Bishop Maximianus, the man responsible for Justinian's religious and political policies and the architect of the Church of San Vitale.

The importance of each figure is shown in the position of the feet. Overlapping feet determine relative importance. The leader of the army carries the Chi Rho shield and his feet overlap those of his subordinates. The clerics overlap the army. The King overlaps the clerics but does not overlap the Bishop on his left. The Bishop in turn overlaps the various benefactors and acolytes to his left. The king expresses his superiorty in advancing the bowl of bread beyond the elbow of the Bishop.

Some of the artistic conventions go back to the Ara Pacis and others to Dura Europus. We have talked about each of these much earlier and anyone wishing can find references to these works in our prior discussions.

Malryn (Mal)
October 12, 2004 - 10:15 pm
Oh, Justin . . . .
JUSTINIAN et al.

Malryn (Mal)
October 12, 2004 - 10:18 pm
THEODORA

JoanK
October 12, 2004 - 10:29 pm
I notice Theodora doesn't have her feet on anyone, but the figure (man?) to her left does. I assume the convention doesn't apply to women?

As someone with corns, I almost wish you hadn't pointed that out. The pictures make me wince.

JoanK
October 12, 2004 - 10:31 pm
I liked the closeups: you can appreciate the intricate mosaic work, which doesn't show in the broader views.

robert b. iadeluca
October 13, 2004 - 02:22 am
Justin:-Thank you for that detailed explanation of the meanings behind the art work. That helps us to better understand the art we see in the various links.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 13, 2004 - 02:26 am
In less than a month and a half we have shared almost 1000 postings! Very shortly we will be moved to another "page." Continue as usual and be sure to click onto the Subscribe button on the new page.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 13, 2004 - 02:44 am
"Theodora interested herself in theology and debated with her husband the nature of Christ. Justinian labored to reunite the Eastern and the Western Church. Unity of religion, he thought, was indispensable to the unity of the Empire.

"But Theodora could not understand the two natures in Christ although she raised no difficulties about the three persons in God. She adopted the Monophysite doctrine, perceived that on this point the East would not yield to the West and judged that the strength and fortune of the Empire lay in the rich provinces of Asia, Syria, and Egypt rather than in Western provinces ruined by barbarism and war.

"She softened Justinian's orthodox intolerance -- protected heretics, challenged the papacy -- secretly encouraged the rise of an independent Monophysite Church in the East. On these issues she fought tenaciously and ruthlessly against emperor and pope.

"Justinian can be forgiven his passion for unity. It is the eternal temptation of philosophers as well as of statesmen, and generalizations have sometimes cost more than war.

"To recapture Africa from the Vandals, Italy from the Ostrogoths, Spain from the Visigoths, Gaul from the Franks, Britain from the Saxons -- to drive barbarism back to its lairs and restore Roman civilization to all its old expanse -- to spread Roman law once more across the white man's world from the Euphrates to Hadrian's Wall -- these were no ignoble ambitions, although they were destined to exhaust saviots and saved alike. For these high purposes Justinian ended the schism of the Eastern from the Western Church on papal terms and dreamed of bringing Arians, Monophysites, and other heretics into one great spiritual fold.

"Not since Constantine had a European thought in such dimensions.

"Justinian was favored with competent generals and harassed by limited means. His people were unwilling to fight his wars and unable to pay for them. He soon used up the 320,000 pounds of gold that Justin's predecessors had left in the treasury. Thereafter he was forced to taxes that alienated the citizens, and economies that hampered his generals.

"Universal military service had ceased a century before. Now the imperial army was composed almost wholly of barbarian mercenaries from a hundred tribes and states. They lived by plunder and dreamed of riches and rape. Time and again they mutinied in the crisis of battle or lost a victory by stopping to gather spoils.

"Nothing united or inspired them except regular pay and able generals."

Justinian and Theodora -- each with grand dreams -- she from a religious point of view and he from a geographical point of view.

The plot thickens.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 13, 2004 - 03:09 am
Here is the definition of the MONOPHYSITE DOCTRINE.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 13, 2004 - 04:14 am
Here is an EXCELLENT CHART showing the basic differences between the Western Church (Roman Catholic) and the Eastern Orthodox Church (Byzantine).

Robby

Bubble
October 13, 2004 - 06:16 am
This chart made it much clearer for me. I also see more affinity to one side than the other...Thanks Robby.

Theron Boyd
October 13, 2004 - 07:15 am
You have made it to the magic number!! Time now for a new place to post. Come on over here!!

Don't forget to subscribe if you use subscriptions to get here!!

Theron