Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant ~ Volume II, Part 5 ~ Nonfiction
jane
June 6, 2003 - 08:25 pm


What are our origins? Where are we now? Where are we headed?

Share your thoughts with us!





  
"I want to know what were the steps by which man passed from barbarism to civilization." (Voltaire)





Volume Two ("The Life of Greece")

"Four elements constitute Civilization -- economic provision, political organization, moral traditions, and the pursuit of knowledge and the arts. "

"I shall proceed as rapidly as time and circumstances will permit, hoping that a few of my contemporaries will care to grow old with me while learning. "

"These volumes may help some of our children to understand and enjoy the infinite riches of their inheritance."

"Civilization begins where chaos and insecurity ends." "








THE STRUGGLE FOR POWER







"Historians are wont to end their histories of Greece with Alexander."

"From Philip to Perseus, from Chaeronea to Pydna (338-168), the foreign and civil wars of the city-states were supplemented by the external and internal wars of the kingdoms."

"The Achaean League was transformed into a first-class power by Aratus of Sicyon."

"At the height of their power, the two leagues began to weaken themselves by war with each other and class war within."





In this Discussion Group we are not examining Durant. We are examining Civilization but in the process constantly referring to Durant's appraisals.

Will Durant attacks in this volume the absorbing, perennially fascinating problem of Greek civilization. Dr. Durant tells the whole story of Hellas, from the days of Crete's vast Aegean empire to the extirpation of the last remnants of Greek liberty, crushed under the heel of an implacably forward-marching Rome. This is a preeminently vivid re-creation of Greek culture brought to the reader through the medium of a supple and vigorous prose.

Like a great drama, The Life of Greece finds a climax in fifth-century Athens, and Will Durant's picture of the city of Pericles is a masterpiece of synthesis, compressing into about two hundred pages the high spots and eternal significances of what many have considered the most fruitful epoch in history. The Life of Greece has taken its place as the most brilliant story of a magnificently endowed people whose career ended in tragedy and unwanted assimilation because they discovered a world view too late.

This volume, and the series of which it is a part, has been compared with the great work of the French encyclopedists of the eighteenth century. The Story of Civilization represents the most comprehensive attempt in our times to embrace the vast panorama of man's history and culture.

This, then, is about YOU. Join our group daily and listen to what Durant and the rest of us are saying. Better yet, share with us your opinions.



Your Discussion Leader:

Robby Iadeluca





Story of Civilization, Vol II, Part 1
Story of Civilization, Vol. II, Part 2
Story of Civilization, Vol. II, Part 3
Story of Civilization, Vol. II, Part 4
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Internet Citation Procedure



jane
June 6, 2003 - 08:26 pm
Don't forget to subscribe if
you use subscriptions.

Malryn (Mal)
June 6, 2003 - 08:48 pm

I'm here, Robby. Ready and rarin' to go.

Mal

Bubble
June 7, 2003 - 01:45 am
Thanks Jane! We do fill them fast here!



A gallop, Mal? I think gallop was a dance too? Happy week end! Bubble

Éloïse De Pelteau
June 7, 2003 - 03:28 am
Keep up the good word so we can keep lurking ~~~~~~~ E

robert b. iadeluca
June 7, 2003 - 04:13 am
In the Heading directly under my name are four links to the four thousand postings we have had so far. If you want to refer to any postings which were made in the last day or so, click onto Volume Two, Part 4.

And all that was only The Life of Greece (which of course is not yet finished), not counting our postings in Our Oriental Heritage. As Bubble says, we sure do move along!

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
June 7, 2003 - 05:44 am
"Nevertheless the play is the thing, and the prize is awarded less for the music than for the drama, and less for the drama than for the acting. A good actor can make a success of a middling play.

"The actor -- who is always a male -- is not disdained as in Rome, but is much honored. He is exempt from military service, and is allowed safe passage through the lines in time of war. He is called hypocrites, but this word means answerer -- i.e. to the chorus. Only later will the actor's role as an impersonator lead to the use of the word as meaning hypocrite.

"Actors are organized in a strong union or guild called the Dionysian Artists, which has members throughout Greece. Troupes of players wander from city to city, composing their own plays and music, making their own costumes, and setting up their own stages.

"As in all times, the incomes of leading actors are very high, that of secondary actors precariously low. The morals of both are what might be expected of men moving from place to place, fluctuating between luxury and poverty, and too high-strung to be capable of a stable and normal life."

Actors high strung?

Robby

Bubble
June 7, 2003 - 06:31 am
If one compares with the life of stars in Hollywood as I remember them in magazines of the 60s and 70s...

Malryn (Mal)
June 7, 2003 - 07:10 am

Good actors and artists are extremely sensitive, imaginative people. An actor must part with his or her own self and take on another "self" when he or she is onstage. If the actor doesn't do this, the character he or she is portraying is not believable to the audiences for which he performs.

Does the ordinary person have any conception of how difficult it is to do this? Does the ordinary person have any idea how much effort it takes to shed characteristics of the person an actor or performer becomes on the stage and go back to what he or she truly is? Does the ordinary person realize what it's like for an actor or performer to be in the public eye and to have his every move, onstage or off, judged by an audience? I don't think so.

The first time I performed onstage I was four years old. In the years following I was onstage more often than I was not, either performing classical or popular music in concerts or recitals, or appearing in musical shows and plays.

The life created by doing this is only "normal" to the performer. You're happily working in a job making money, or you're out of work and hungry. Life is these two extremes, have or have not, both financially and psychologically ( because the actor and performer are nurtured by what he or she does and audience reactions to it ). It's an emotional roller coaster, and you react, sometimes not positively.

Will Durant was not an actor or a performer; he was a thinker, and he obviously did not truly understand what life is like for those who are. How could he? And how can others, who do not really perceive what an actor, artist, musician, performer's life is like, understand?

Mal

Bubble
June 7, 2003 - 08:59 am
It must be that much harder for a child to be put in such a situation,to have the differentiate in what is act and what is everyday reality.

Malryn (Mal)
June 7, 2003 - 09:23 am

Reality is not the same for everyone. Reality for me was going to school and playing marbles in the playground at lunchtime and performing onstage whenever there was the chance. I liked all of it.

Mal

Éloïse De Pelteau
June 7, 2003 - 09:54 am
One of my daughters was a performer on stage and it is still hard for her to make the transition from an imaginary word to a real on. When she was a child she never watched television because it bothered her too much as she could not separate fact from fiction. Though she has left the stage, she is still a performer at heart in her new career.

Artists dramatize everything. If they act like prima-donnas sometimes it is what makes them endearing.

robert b. iadeluca
June 7, 2003 - 09:56 am
"The play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king."

- - Shakespeare in Hamlet, Act II, Scene 2

Malryn (Mal)
June 7, 2003 - 10:31 am

Extremely creative people can have extreme highs and extreme lows, and often are diagnosed as "Bipolar". There's treatment for this, and that's okay as long as the treatment doesn't stop the creativity.

There can come a time when the artist (and I use artist as a blanket term) decides life is easier and more productive if he or she doesn't give in to prima donna-ism. Ways exist in which one can do this without medical (drug) treatment. They usually take a lot of getting to know oneself, many times with counselling. Self-awareness can be a painful thing, and sometimes people aren't willing to do this.

Mal

georgehd
June 7, 2003 - 01:24 pm
Some of you may find this link to The Teaching Company's web site of interest. I find most of their courses excellent.

http://www.teach12.com/store/courses.asp?t=&sl=&s=911&sbj=History%20%2D%20Ancient%20and%20Medieval&fMode=s

Ginny
June 7, 2003 - 01:37 pm
We all know how much you all love discussing the Story of Civilization, here's a Poll you may not have seen, Fiction and Non Fiction Preferences Poll, make your vote count!!

Like to read and discuss books?
Here's a Poll just for you!
Click here for Poll

robert b. iadeluca
June 7, 2003 - 02:09 pm
"The acoustics of the Greek theater, and the visibility of the stage from every seat, are remarkable. Even so it is found advisable to reinforce the voice of the actor, and help the eye of the distant spectator to distinguish readily the various characters portrayed. All subtle play of vocal or facial expression is sacrificed to these needs.

"When real individuals are represented on the stage, like the Euripides of the Ecclesiazusae and the Socrates of the Clouds, the masks imitate, and largely caricature, their actual features. The masks have come down into the drama from religious performances, in which they were often instruments of terror or humor. In comedy they continue this tradition, and are as grotesque and extravagant as Greek fancy can make them. Just as the actor's voice is strengthened and his countenance enlarged by the mask, so his dimensions are extended with padding, and his height is enhanced by an onkos, or projection on the head, and by kothornoi, or thick-soled shoes, on his feet.

"All in all, as Lucian puts it, the ancient actor makes a 'hideous and appalling spectacle.'"

Any comments here regarding the use of masks in other cultures and their reasons for being used?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
June 7, 2003 - 02:54 pm

Masks are used in Japanese Noh Theater. The article linked below will tell you more.

Japanese Noh Theater

Justin
June 7, 2003 - 05:29 pm
Masks were common in Renaisance Venice. Particularly for traveling about incognito in the city at night. There is a name for these folks that escapes me at the moment.

Traveling troupes of actors who make up their own plays are depicted in Hamlet and in Pagliacci.

robert b. iadeluca
June 7, 2003 - 05:45 pm
"Men and women of all ranks are admitted, and after 420 all citizens who need it receive from the state the two obols required for entrance. Women sit apart from men, and courtesans have a place to themselves. Custom keeps all but the looser ladies away from comedy.

"It is a lively audience, not less or more mannerly than such assemblages in other lands. It eats nuts and fruit and drinks wine as it listens. Aristotle proposes to measure the failure of a play by the amount of food eaten during the presentation. It quarrels about seats, claps and shouts for its favorites, hisses and groans when it is displeased. When moved to more vigorous protest it kicks the benches beneath it. If it becomes angry it may frighten an actor off the stage with olives, figs, or stones.

"Aeschines is almost stoned to death for an offensive play. Aeschylus is nearly killed because the audience believes that he has revealed some secrets of the Eleusinian Mysteries. A musician who has borrowed a supply of stones to build a house promises to repay it with those that he expects to collect from his next peformance.

"Actors sometimes hire a claque to drown out with applause the hisses they fear, and comic actors may throw nuts to the crowd as a bribe to pace.

"If it wishes, the audience can by deliberate noise prevent a drama from continuing, and compel the performance of the next play. In this way a long program may be shortened within bearing."

Robby

Justin
June 7, 2003 - 08:04 pm
Opera is popular in the Italian provinces. Fruits and vegetables tossed on stage tend to express disapproval and shorten scenes. Italians do not hestitate to express disapproval of performers. One night at La Fenice in Venice the audience objected so loudly the tenor retreated behind the curtain. Claques are more active in Italy than they are in the US. Americans tend to be more polite. We walk out at intermission. Claques are active in the US for certain singers. Claque participation was particularly active in the US during the Callas, Tebaldi period.

Bubble
June 8, 2003 - 02:08 am
Masks are always used in initiations ceremonies in African tribes, in special dances before hunts to propitiate the Gods. Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
June 8, 2003 - 05:02 am
"The size of the theater and the traditions of the festival determine in large measure the nature of the Greek drama. Since nuances cannot be conveyed by facial expression or vocal inflection, subtle character portraits are rare in the Dionysian theater.

"The Greek drama is a study of fate, or of man in conflict with the gods. The Elizabethan drama is a study of action, or of man in conflict with man. The modern drama is a study of character, or of man in conflict with himself.

"The Athenian audience knows in advance the destiny of each person represented, and the issue of each action. Religious custom is still strong enough in the fifth century to limit the theme of the Dionysian drama to some story from the accepted myths and legends of the early Greeks. There is no suspense and no surprise, but instead, the pleasures of anticipation and recognition.

"Dramatist after dramatist tells the same tale to the same audience. What differs is the poetry, the music, the interpretation, and the philosophy. Even the philosophy, before Euripides, is determined in large measure by tradition.

Throughout Aeschylus and Sophocles the prevailing theme is the nemesis of punishment, by jealous gods or imperson fate, for insolent presumption and irreverent pride (hybris). The recurring moral is the wisdom of conscience, honor, and a modest moderation (aidos).

"It is this combination of philosophy with poetry, action, music, song, and dance that makes the Greek drama not only a new form in the history of literature, but one tht almost at the outset achieves a grandeur never equaled again."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
June 8, 2003 - 10:06 am
Durant moves us on (see GREEN quotes:--

"For as many talents, in heredity and history, prepare the way for a genius, so some lesser playwrights, who may here be forgotten with honor, intervened between Thespis and Aeschylus. The wealth that came with trade and empire after the war provided for the costly Dionysian contests in dithyrambic singing and the choral play.

"Aeschylus felt both the stimulus and the pride in person. Like so many Greek writers of the fifth century, he lived as well as wrote, and knew how to do as well as to speak.

"In 499, at the age of twenty-six, he produced his first play.

"In 490 he and his two brothers fought at Marathon, and so bravely that Athens ordered a painting to commenorate their deeds.

"In 484 he won the first prize at the Dionysian festival.

"In 480 he fought at Artemisium and Salamis, and in 479 at Plataea.

"In 476 and 470 he visited Syracuse, and was honored at the court of Hieron I.

"In 468 after dominating Athenian literature for a generation, he lost the first prize for drama to the youthful Sophocles.

"In 467 he recaptured supremacy with his Seven Against Thebes.

"In 458 he won his last and greatest victory with the Oresteia trilogy.

"In 456 he was again in Sicily. There, in that year, he died."

Interesting that war and playwriting intertwined -- not only by Aeschylus being both warrior and playwright but by the various wars paying for the costs of producing plays.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
June 8, 2003 - 11:14 am

Aeschylus

Malryn (Mal)
June 8, 2003 - 11:16 am

THE ORESTEIA. Be sure to click CONTINUE

Malryn (Mal)
June 8, 2003 - 08:40 pm

Greek Tragedy

The picture linked below shows Aegistus striking down the king (in transparent robe.) Clytemnestra follows him, wielding an axe. The female figure on the right probably is Agamennon's daughter, Electra. This picture, taken from a vase, predates Aeschylus' Oresteia.

Picture: Agamennon's Death

robert b. iadeluca
June 9, 2003 - 03:41 am
We move on to Sophocles - -

"The first prize for tragedy was won from Aeschylus in 468 by a newcomer, aged twenty-seven, and bearing a name that meant the Wise and Honored One. Sophocles came from Colonus, a suburb of Athens, and was the son of a sword manufacturer, so that the Persian and Peloponnesian Wars, which impoverished nearly all Athenians, left the dramatist a comfortable income.

"In addition to wealth he had genius, beauty, and good health. He won the double prize for wrestling and music -- a combination that would have pleased Plato. His skill as a ballplayer and a harpist enabled him to give public performances in both fields.After the battle of Salamis, it was he who was chosen by the city to lead the nude youths of Athens in a dance and song of victory.

"Even in later years he was handsome. The Lateran Museum statue shows him old and bearded and rounded, but still vigorous and tall. He grew up in the happiest age of Athens. He was the friend of Pericles, and held high offices under him. In 443 he was Imperial Treasurer. In 440 he was one of the generals who commanded the Athenian forces in Pericles' expedition against Samos -- though it should be added that Pericles preferred his poetry to his strategy. After the Athenian debacle in Syracuse he was apointed to the Committee of Public Safety. In this capacity he voted for the oligarchical constitution of 411.

"His character pleased the people more than his politics. He was genial, witty, unassuming, pleasure-loving, and endowed with a charm that atoned for all his errors. He had a fancy for money and boys but in his old age he turned his favor to courtesans.

"He was very pious, and occasionally filled the office of priest."

All things to all people?

Robby

Bubble
June 9, 2003 - 04:34 am
Many strings to his bow...

Percivel
June 9, 2003 - 05:10 am
>Does the ordinary person have any idea how much effort it takes to shed characteristics of the person an actor or performer becomes on the stage and go back to what he or she truly is? <<


I know it takes tremendous focus and effort, but I am afraid that it often also includes lack of contact with morality and self control. If I am not aware of "me" by often playing roles of others, I can easily shed the skin of responsibility by blaming it on my role.

Many unsavory acts have been justified in the name of sensitivity and creativity.

Percivel
June 9, 2003 - 05:17 am
>Any comments here regarding the use of masks in other cultures and their reasons for being used?<<


In other cultures? We often wear masks, playing many roles during the day. Though not made of extranious materials, our masks are just as deceptive at hiding reality from dream.

Malryn (Mal)
June 9, 2003 - 05:59 am

You're an actor, Percivel? In what róles have you appeared? Have you done any Greek drama?

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
June 9, 2003 - 06:27 am

"Wisdom is the supreme part of happiness; and reverence towards the gods must be inviolate. Great words of prideful men are ever punished with great blows, and, in old age, teach the chastened to be wise."

-- Sophocles - Antigone

ANTIGONE

Malryn (Mal)
June 9, 2003 - 06:33 am

Oedipus the King by Sophocles

Percivel
June 9, 2003 - 07:49 am
Malryn sez:

>You're an actor, Percivel? In what róles have you appeared? Have you done any Greek drama?<<


Certainly I am an actor. We all are aren't we? Though I did some stage performing in college and high school, my best performances were as a public high school teacher of US History over a period of 35 years.

I have also play(ed) roles as an uncle, brother, counselor, retail manager, landlord, husband, friend,etc.

Malryn (Mal)
June 9, 2003 - 08:29 am

How come you never wuz yourself, Perc?I think you're an okay kinda guy.

Mal

Percivel
June 9, 2003 - 08:44 am
>How come you never wuz yourself, Perc?I think you're an okay kinda guy.<<


Have to be self first in order to play other roles. As years went by, self became a combination of those roles.

Éloïse De Pelteau
June 9, 2003 - 09:14 am
Percival, do you think that everybody plays a role and never/seldom really show their true self?

Is it necessary to do that to get along with the people we are in dainly contact with?

Is it possible to be truly ourselves at all times?

If people show their true self, do you think it would benefit them and society?

Eloïse

georgehd
June 9, 2003 - 01:02 pm
Percival and others - there is a TV program (on Bravo) Actors Studio that is produced in Washington. The host interviews actors and actresses and often these interviews are most inciteful. I would say that most accomplished actors would not agree with your comments in post 29. I do not think that they shed their own true selves and their morality except when on the stage. The great actor can make us believe that he is a totally imoral person if that is the role he is playing; but in real life he may be a mench.

Percivel
June 9, 2003 - 05:12 pm
Questions:

"Percival, do you think that everybody plays a role and never/seldom really show their true self? "

I think that everbody plays a number of roles; and in the process, many lose contact with who and what they are.

"Is it necessary to do that to get along with the people we are in dainly contact with?"

I don't know that it is necessary, but I do know that many think it is necessaary in order to maintain position and job.

"Is it possible to be truly ourselves at all times?"

If we can assume that we know ourselves truly, then I think it is possible to be ourselves at all times. But I also think that there is a high price for being one's self.

"If people show their true self, do you think it would benefit them and society?"

Interesting question. I am inclined to believe that people don't see you as you are. They see you as they think you are. So it is likely that there wouldn't be much change.

Percivel
June 9, 2003 - 05:14 pm
Georgehd, I have watched the Actor's Studio and see it as an interesting view into the lives of actors. I am amazed at the number o them that get hung up on booze and drugs.

robert b. iadeluca
June 9, 2003 - 05:54 pm
Durant continues about Sophocles:--

"The dominant qualities of these plays, surviving time and translation, are beauty of style and mastery of technique. Here is the typically 'classic' form of utterance: polished, placid and serene. Vigorous but restrained, deignified but graceful, with the strength of Pheidias and the smooth delicacy of Praxiteles. Classic too is the structure. Every line is relevant, and moves towards that moment in which the action finds its climax and its significance.

"Each of these plays is built like a temple, wherein every part is carefully finished in detail, but has its proper and subordinate place in the whole. Except that the Philoctetes lazily accepts the deus ex machine (which is a jest in Euripides) as a serious solution of a knotty plot. Here, as in Aeschylus, the drama moves upward towards the hybris of some crowning insolence (as in Oedipus' bitter curse upon the unknown murderer), turns around some anagnorisis or sudden recognition, some peripeteia or reversal of fortune, and moves downward toward the nemesis of inevitable punishment.

"Aristotle, when he wished to illustrate perfection of dramatic structure, always referred to Oedipus the King, and the two plays that deal with Oedipus illustrate well the Aristotelian definition of tragedy as a purging of pity and terror through their objective presentation. The characters are more clearly drawn than in Aeschylus, though not as realistically as in Euripides."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
June 10, 2003 - 04:57 am
We move on to --

Euripides

"As Giotto rough-hewed the early path of Italian painting, and Raphael subdued the art with a quiet spirit into technical perfection, and Michelangelo completed the development in works of tortured genius. As Bach with incredible energy forced open a broad road to modern music, and Mozart perfected its form in melodius simplicity, and Beethoven completed the development in works of unbalanced grandeur.

"So Aeschylus cleared the way and set the forms for Greek drama with his harsh verse and stern philosophy, Sophocles fashioned the art with measured music and placid wisdom, and Euripides complete the development in works of passionate feeling and turbulent doubt.

"Aeschylus was a preacher of almost Hebraic intensity. Sophocles was a 'classic' artist clinging to a broken faith. Euripides was a romantic poet who could never write a perfect play because he was distracted by philosphy."

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
June 10, 2003 - 06:11 am

Will Durant was not a musician either. Johann Sebastian Bach and those of his era composed their music according to a very strict form. How this relates to 12 tone music as composed by people like Arnold Schonberg, and other classical music of Durant's and our era, I do not know.

Beethoven's music is very harmonic. By that I mean he was very interested in chords and clustered tones, perhaps more than he was intrigued by melodic line. It is crashing chords which make people think of grandeur when they hear his work. I am one of a group that thinks his later work sounds the way it does because he was deaf. He could not hear what he wrote and must have had to imagine the sound, which often is quite dissonant.

Mozart's music may "sound" simple, but if you've ever played his piano concertos, you know it's not. His music is contrapuntal with melodic lines weaving in and out. As with Bach's fugues, it is those lines and they way they intersect that create the harmonies ( chords ) you hear.

I once played the piano in a performance of 3 three piano concertos. These were three pianos played by three pianists and a small string chamber orchestra. Two of those concertos were by Bach, one was by Mozart. I have never cared for Bach's music as much as that of other composers and was always afraid of playing his music, primarily because of the way I felt about it. On the other hand, I love Mozart's music. The parts for the two Bach concertos I played were easy. The Mozart concerto was extremely difficult, and was I surprised!

Now I want to find out why Durant says what he does about Euripedes.

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
June 10, 2003 - 06:37 am
Euripedes



Euripides



Medea Text

depfran
June 10, 2003 - 07:27 am
The integration of the mind, the heart and the soul is the most difficult thing man has to realize in it's lifetime. Then, when it is acheived, the heart becomes the ruler of the three.

Françoise

robert b. iadeluca
June 10, 2003 - 05:26 pm
"Euripides was born in the year -- some say on the day -- of Salamis, probably on the island itself, to which, we are told, his parents had fled for refuge from the invading Medes. His father was a man of some property and prominence in the Attic town of Phyla. His mother was of noble family, though the hostile Aristophanes insists that she kept a grocer's shop and hawked fruit and flowers on the street

"In later life he lived on Salamis, loving the solitude of its hills, and its varied prospects of blue sea. Plato wished to be a dramatist and became a philosopher. Euripides wished to be a philosopher and became a dramatist.

"He took the entire course of Anaxagoras. He studied for a while with Producus, and was so intimate with Socrates that some suspected the philosopher of having a hand in the poet's plays. The whole Sophistic movement entered into his education, and through him captured the Dionysian stage.

"He became the Voltaire of the Greek Enlightenment, worshiping reason with destructive innuendo in the midst of dramas staged to celebrate a god."

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
June 10, 2003 - 05:39 pm

"Nietzsche claimed that the Dionysian element in the tragedy of the Greeks was destroyed by an opposition between the Dionysian and the Socratic. Socrates and Euripides laid to ruin the 'most magnificent temple' of tragedy using the 'Socratic tendency' which would separate the Dionysian element from tragedy and reconstruct tragedy 'on the basis of an un-Dionysian art, morality, and world view.' The tendency of the Socratic soul to sever the Dionysian from art is connected to 'aesthetic Socratism,' which is parallel to Socrates’ maxim, 'to be beautiful everything must be intelligible.' Socrates believed that art must be created with conscious reason in order to be intelligible and therefore beautiful. This conscious reason is essentially Socrate’s concept of 'nous,' that all desire in the soul must follow reason and the mind instead of the unconscious in order to attain truth. The use of nous opposed the occurrence of the Dionysian intoxication; this intoxication being that which helps one reach Apollo’s images of truth through unconsciousness. Euripides followed aesthetic Socratism and the idea of nous by basing his writings on reason and knowledge, not poetry, suspense, tragedy-essentially the Dionysian.

"In his plays, Euripides followed the teachings of Socrates, attempting to create an "ideal of the Apollinian drama" based exclusively on the non-Dionysian. According to Nietzsche, the Apollinian drama 'transforms the most terrible things' into 'mere appearance,' and therefore the tragic effect is difficult to attain without the Dionysian. However, Euripides was unable to reach even the ideal form of Apollinian drama. Nietzsche claimed a poet must be one with Apollo’s dream images, 'living and suffering with these scenes' to be aesthetically sensitive. Euripides, on the other hand, used reason and knowledge to create images and artificial affects. He was not connected to the unconscious dream world in which Apollo reveals images that hold transcendent meaning within. Instead, he created his own images to serve his needs, assigning his own meaning to the images without regard for the meaning they held within them."


The Birth of Tragedy

Malryn (Mal)
June 10, 2003 - 08:29 pm

I went in a Religion book discussion just now to urge some people who were once very loyal participants in the Story of Civilization discussion to drop in here once in a while and post. Lo and behold, our leader is there, too. I turned around and came back home.

I do my best, but I can't carry on conversations here with myself. Let's do something, folks, to bring this discussion back to life before I get so discouraged that I decide to spend all my time writing and building web pages the way I did before we began discussing Will and Ariel Durant's books.

Mal

Justin
June 10, 2003 - 11:10 pm
Bach is no fun. His music is too conformist. Too doctrinaire. When I listen to Bach he puts me in a world of mathematics, a world of regularity, a world where I know what's coming next. The Brandenburgs, the fugues, the tocatas, all affect me like a metronome. Mozart, on the other hand wrote giggling music. Most of it is light and lyrical. His operas are fun to listen to and watch. Things such as Idomeneo are serious and I suppose Magic Flute is serious but it is delivered in a silly vein. Don Giovanni is serious but again with amusing delivery. Le Nozze and Cosi Fan Tutte are just silly. The music is like drinking honey flavored fluids. It envelops one in a happy euphoria. It catches one up and lightly carries the listener along. Give me Mozart everytime.

robert b. iadeluca
June 11, 2003 - 02:44 am
Mal:--Life goes in cycles. Some things interest people. Some things do not. We have lurkers and participants who are temporary lurkers who drop in occasionally to find out what the sub-topic is. Our discussion about music, plays, etc. and the biographies of the various authors and playwrights is of interest to you but I believe is of little interest to most others. To many this is boring and much too serious and/or intellectual.

We will shortly be moving on to the next prime section of the book -- The Suicide of Greece -- and you will see a rejuvenation. If this were a class (which we don't want it to become!) some of the class would be dozing at their desks. But they have not left the room! Sub-topics like religion, war, sex, etc. always make their heads pop up!

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
June 11, 2003 - 03:14 am
I invite all participants here to read carefully the new GREEN quotes above (especially the second one)and, without mentioning current political figures, ask themselves and perhaps share with us if they see any comparison with what was going on in Ancient Greece at that time and what is happening now. Shortly to come is the "suicide" of Greece. Is some of our Western civilization in danger -- not necesarily from outside but from within?

"Since the leader of the democracy, Pericles, was sympathetic to new ideas like the emancipation of woman and the development of a rationalist philosophy, the comic dramatists ranged themselves, with suspicious unanimity, against all forms of radicalism, and called for a return to the ways and reputed morals of 'Men of Marathon.' Aristophanes became the voice of this reaction, as Socrates and Euripides were the protagonists of the new ideas.

"The conflict between religion and philosophy captured the comic stage."

Any such conflict going on these days?

Robby

moxiect
June 11, 2003 - 05:14 am
Hi Rob

Just to let you know that I am still here and learning quite a bit! I'm so busy learning that I forget to input my 2cents.

Malryn (Mal)
June 11, 2003 - 06:27 am

Robby, my response to your Post #50 is: How can you learn anything if you turn your back on it?

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
June 11, 2003 - 07:45 am

The Frogs by Aristophanes, a Synopsis

Synopsis: Lysistrata by Aristophanes, Make Love Not War

Aristophanes -- The Birds

Malryn (Mal)
June 11, 2003 - 07:59 am
The Clouds -- Aristophanes

The Frogs -- text of the play by Aristophanes

The Wasps -- Aristophanes

Peace -- Aristophanes

Malryn (Mal)
June 11, 2003 - 08:02 am

Aristophanes -- a picture of him

georgehd
June 11, 2003 - 12:33 pm
Mal, I am guilty of lurking in the background for as Robby points out some of Durant's book is less interesting to me and therefore I am not prone to comment. Frankly until I read your wonderful links, my background is woefully ignorant. I too am in the Religion and Evil discussion which does interest me a great deal and therefore I am prone to spend more time, do more research, and post more in that group. Also as Robby points out, I will probably get more interested once we are through this chapter.

Please, Mal, do not get discouraged; I for one look forward to your informative posts.

I have finished The Piano Tuner and am in the middle of The DaVinci Code. It is fascinating to me how these novels tie in with discussions of other material on SeniorNet.

robert b. iadeluca
June 11, 2003 - 04:17 pm
"Plutarch and Athenaeus refer to hundreds of Greek historians. Nearly all of them but Herodotus and Thucydides, in the Golden Age, have been covered up by the silt of time. Of the later historians only paragraphs remain.

"The case is no different with the other forms of Greek literature. Of the hundreds of tragic dramatists who won prizes at the Dionysia, we have a few plays by three. Of the many comic writers we have one. Of the great philosphers we have two.

"All in all, not more than one-twentieth survives from the critically acclaimed literature of the fifth-century Greece. From the earlier and later centuries even less. Most of what we have comes from Athens. The other cities, as we can tell from the philosophers that they sent to Athens, were fertile in genius too, but their culture was sooner engulfed by barbarism from without and from below, and their manuscripts were lost in the disorder of revolution and war.

"We must judge the whole from the fragments of a part."

And so Greece seems to be on the start of a decline.

Robby

Justin
June 11, 2003 - 10:11 pm
Yes, Greece has past the peak and while Alexander will carry some of the Greek ideas around the known world, intellectual growth stopped in the early fourth century. Embellishment of earlier developments in art became the practice. Socrates is dead and soon the innovative work of Plato will form the basis of a school that wil persist until medieval times. Wars will dominate Greek life. This pattern will continue until Rome copies everything that was Greek. Roman copies of Greek art work are the progeny of the genius that was the golden age of Greece.

robert b. iadeluca
June 12, 2003 - 03:26 am
The Suicide of Greece

"Let us, before facing the melancholy spectacle of the Peloponnesian War, glance at the Greek world outside of Attica.

"In 450 Pericles, anxious to control Egyptian grain, sent a great fleet to expel the Persians from Egypt. The expedition failed, and thereafter Pericles adopted the policy of Themistocles -- to win the world by commerce rather than by war.

"Throughout the fifth century Egypt and Cyprus continued under Persian rule. Rhodes remained free, and the merger of its three cities into one in 408 prepared it to become in the Hellenistic period one of the richest commercial centers in the Mediterranean.

"The Greek cities of Asia preserved their independence, won at Mycale in 479, until the destruction of the Athenian Empire left them helpless again before the tribute collectors of the Great King. The Greek colonies in Thrace and on the Hellespont, the Propontis, and the Euxine prospered under Athenian domination, but were impoverished by the Peloponnesian War.

"Under Archelaus Macedonia passed out of barbarism and became one of the powers of the Greek world. Good roads were laid down, a disciplined army was formed out of the hardy mountaineers. A handsome new capital was built at Pella, and many Greek geniuses, like timotheus, Zeuxis, and Euripides, found welcome at the court.

"Boeotia in this period produced Pindar, and gave to Greece, in the Boeotian Confederacy, an unappreciated example of how independent states might live in peace and co-operation."

Commerce and peace more powerful than war?

Robby

georgehd
June 12, 2003 - 06:55 am
Commerce and peace more powerful than war??? Possibly true unless religion contributes to the reasons for going to war. Also nationalism has played a big role in the starting of wars (World War II). So I would say that commerce may benefit from peace but it is insufficent to prevent war.

Percivel
June 12, 2003 - 07:39 am
>Commerce and peace more powerful than war?<<


Depends on your definition of commerce and your definition of war. If you see war as physical combat, then perhaps commerce, because it tents to last longer, is more powerful than war.

Howeve, I see war as a means of forced control over other people, denying those people the right of self expression through opression.

In this case, commerce can become a form of warfare, forcing cheap labor and demanding a society of haves and have nots. The motive of commerce is profit and profit is not much more than a symbolic representation of power. Sans the existence of a benevolent despot, that power is used in eternal warfare designed to gain and maintain profit.

Justin
June 12, 2003 - 10:32 pm
In 450BCE, the Greeks, at home and abroad, were competing with the Persians in the transport of grain to settlements in the Mediteranean, the Aegean, and the Adriatic seas. The Persians dominated the trade from Egypt where grain was grown. The Greeks had a modest but growing portion of the trade. When the Persians were made aware of the growing importance of Greek trade Cyrus wondered why, when he had most of the world under his control, the Greeks were not paying tribute.

Pericles, in extending trade from Syracuse and the cities of the lower boot as well as from Athens proper probably called attention to the competition and in so doing attracted the interest of the Persians.

In this case, expanded trade led to war because the Persians were powerful and Cyrus was greedy-so too were Ataxerces and Xerces. If one's trading fleet can be protected from marauders, trading can be a powerful force for peace. Trade blends cultures and makes people less fearful of one another.

robert b. iadeluca
June 13, 2003 - 02:47 am
"In Italy the Greek cities suffered from Athenian ascendancy in maritime trade. In 443 Pericles sent out a group of Hellenes, gathered from different states, to establish near the site of Sybaris the new colony of Thurii, as an experiment in Panhellenic unity. Protagoras drew up a code of laws for the city, and Hippodamus the architect laid out the streets on a rectangular plan that was to be widely imitated in the following centuries.

"Within a few years the colonists divided into factions according to their origin, and most of the Athenians, probably including Herodotus, went back to Athens."

Homesickness won out? Blood is thicker than water?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
June 13, 2003 - 06:08 am

I don't think it was just homesickness. If you've lived in a kind of ideal state, how can you be satisfied with an imitation or something that's less?

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
June 13, 2003 - 06:11 am

Map. Thurii is on the lower left of the arch of the boot of Italy

Malryn (Mal)
June 13, 2003 - 06:18 am
THURII, or THUEIUM, a city of Magna Graecia on the Gulf of Tarentum, near the site of the older Sybaris (q.v.). It owed its origin to an attempt made in 452 B.C. by Sybarite exiles and their descendants to repeople their old home. The new settlement was crushed by Crotona, but the Athenians lent aid to the fugitives and in 443 Pericles sent out to Thurii a mixed body of colonists from various parts of Greece, among whom were Herodotus and the orator - Lysias. The pretensions of the Sybarite colonists led to dissensions and ultimately to their expulsion; peace was made with Crotona, and also, after a period of war, with Tarentum, and Thurii rose rapidly in power and drew settlers from all parts of Greece, especially from Peloponnesus, so that the tie to Athens was not always acknowledged. The oracle of Delphi determined that the city had no founder but Apollo, and in the Athenian War in Sicily Thurii was at first neutral, though it finally helped the Athenians. Thurii had a democratic constitution and good laws, and, though we hear little of its history till in 390 it received a severe defeat from the rising power of the Lucanians, many beautiful coins testify to the wealth and splendour of its days of prosperity. In the 4th century it continued to decline, and at length called in the help of the Romans against the Lucanians, and then in 282 against Tarentum. Thenceforward its position was dependent, and in the Second Punic War, after several vicissitudes, it was depopulated and plundered by Hannibal (204). In 194 a Roman colony was founded, with Latin rights, known for a time as Copiae, but afterwards by the old name of Thurii. It continued to be a place of some importance, the situation being favourable and the region fertile, and does not seem to have been wholly abandoned till the middle ages. The site of the original Greek city is not accurately known, though that of the Roman town, which probably though not certainly occupied the same site, is fixed by insignificant ruins as being 4 m. to the east of Terranova di Sibari, and as occupying an area some 4 m. in circuit. The tombs found in 1879-1880 (see SYBARIS) lie a little to the east of the site.

See F. Lenormant, La GranSe-Gr&ce i. 317 (Paris, 1881). (T. As.)

robert b. iadeluca
June 14, 2003 - 03:20 am
"The Syracusans thirsted for the wine of freedom, and after the death of Hieron they deposed his brother and set up a limited democracy. The other Greek cities in the island took courage and likewise expelled their dictators. The trading classes overthrew the landowning aristocracies, and established a commercial democracy superimposed upon a system of ruthless slavery.

"After some sixty years, war ended this interlude of liberty as it had ended another through Gelon I. In 409 the Carthaginians, who had kept alive three generations the memory of Hamilcar's defeat of Himera, invaded Sicily with an armada of fiteen hundred ships and twenty thousand men under Hamilcar's gradson, Hannibal. He laid siege to Selinus, which had become pacific under prosperity, and had neglected to keep its defenses in repair. The surprised city appealed for help to Acragas and Syracuse, whose comfortble citizens responded with Spartan leisureliness. Selinus was taken, all the survivors were massacred and mutiliated, and the city became a part of the Carthaginian empire.

"Hannibal proceeded to Himera, captured it with ease, and put three thousand prisoners to torture and death to appease the shade of his grandfather. A plague decimated his troops and took off Hannibal himself as they besieged Acragas, but his successor mollified the gods of Carthage by burning alive his own son as an offering.

"The Carthaginians took the city, took Gela and Camarina, and marched on toward Syracuse. The terrified Syracusans, interrupted in their banquets, gave absolute power to their ablest general, Dionysius. But Dionysius made peace with the Carthaginians, ceded to them all southern Sicily, and used his troops to establish a second dictatorship (405).

"It was not all treachery. Dionysius knew that resistance wa useless. He surrendered everything but his army and his city, and resolved to strengthen both until he too, like Gelon, could repel the invaders from Sicily."

War -- massacre -- dictatorship -- ruthless slavery -- invasion -- mutiliation. What happened to liberty loving Greece?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
June 14, 2003 - 03:45 am
As we are talking about Sicily, I thought I would throw in this TRAVEL ARTICLE from this morning's NY Times to help give us a feel of the geography of that area.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
June 14, 2003 - 05:55 am

What's happened to the United States?

When I did a search about the decline of Greece I found Humboldt's essays about Greece. These are not easy reading, to say the least. Was it the great conflict between religion and reason that weakened Greece? Was it the need for expansion because of commerce and trade?

My New York son's wife is of Sicilian heritage. She has relatives there, and she and Christopher went to Sicily a few years ago to visit her family and travel. They brought pictures back. The ones of the Amalfi coast are spectacular. ( I have an interesting family. My son Chris's wife, Serena, is Catholic, and my little granddaughter is being raised Catholic. My elder son was married to a Jew. Rob's son is being raised Jewish.)

Most of the Italian-Americans in the New England city where I grew up were of Sicilian background. I was the only non-Italian-American in my Italian classes in high school. What those kids didn't know when they signed up for that "easy" class was that the dialect we'd be learning is very, very different from the Sicilian one.

I am continually surprised at how far the Ancient Greeks wandered -- Italy, Africa. Dumb me. I didn't realize until this discussion of Life of Greece that Syracuse is in Sicily.

Mal

Éloïse De Pelteau
June 14, 2003 - 05:56 am
SICILY IMAGES TO BROWSE THROUGH

I am amazed at the number of ships and troups the Greeks used for the invasion of SiciLy compared with the number of troups and equipment in the Irakian conflict. So much more deadly now using modern weapons and so few lives lost during a very short time conquering a fairly large territory.

Eloïse

georgehd
June 14, 2003 - 06:49 am
I will be away until June 24th but will read the posts.

Malryn (Mal)
June 14, 2003 - 08:27 am
Amalfi coast

Mt. Etna, Oct. 2000

Stromboli volcano. The Greeks called it "The Lighthouse"

robert b. iadeluca
June 16, 2003 - 03:34 am
War looms on the horizon (see GREEN quotes):--

"Aristophanes, like some gossips of his time would have it that Pericles brought on the Peloponnesian War by attacking Megara, because Megara had offended Aspasia. It is probable that Pericles, who had not hesitated to conquer Aegina, had dreamed of completing Athens' control of Greek trade by dominating not only Megara but Corinth, which was to Greece what Istanbul is to the eastern Mediterranean today -- a door and a key to half a continent's trade.

"But the basic cause of the war was the growth of the Athenian empire, and the development of Athenian control over the commercial and political life of the Aegean. Athens allowed free trade there in time of peace, but only by imperial sufferance. No vessel might sail that sea without her consent.

"Athenian agents decided the destination of every vessel that left the grain ports of the north. Methone, starving with drought, had to ask Athens' leave to import a little corn. Athens defended this domination as a vital necessity. She was dependent upon imported food, and was determined to guard the routes by which that food came. In policing the avenues of international trade Athens performed a real service to peace and prosperity in the Aegean, but the process became more and more irksome as the pride and wealth of the subject cities grew.

"The funds that these had contributed for defense agaianst Persia were being used for the adornment of Athens, even for the financing of Athenian wars upon other Greeks. Periodically the assessment had been increased until it was now, in 432, some 460 talents ($2,300,000) per year.

"Athens reserved to Athenian courts the right to try all cases, arising within the Confederacy, that involved Athenian citizens or major crimes. If any city resisted, it was reduced by force. So Pericles with efficient dispatch suppressed rebellions in Aegina (457), Euboea (446), and Samos (440).

"If we may believe Thuycydides, the democratic leaders at Athens, while making liberty the idol of their policy among Athenians, frankly recognized that the Confederacy of free cities had become an empire of force.

"Said Thucydides' Cleon to the Assembly (427), 'You should remember that your empire is a despotism exercised over unwilling subjects who are always conspring against you. They do not obey in return for any kindness which you do them to your own injury, but only in so far as you are their master. They have no love for you, but they are held down by force.'"

Growth of the Athenian empire -- development of control over commercial and political life -- allowed trade by imperial sufferance -- defended this domination as a vital necessity -- pride of the subject cities grew -- reserved to Athenian courts the right to try all cases -- made liberty the idol of their policy -- unwilling subjects have no love for you.

Something here rings a bell.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
June 16, 2003 - 03:58 am

Good morning, Robby. I'm off to Durham and the tender mercies of Duke. I'll post when I get back.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
June 16, 2003 - 04:15 am
You'll do well, Mal. We'll be waiting for you.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
June 16, 2003 - 07:30 am
Here is a MAP of Peloponnesus where all this action took place.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
June 16, 2003 - 08:02 am
"Maybe if we listened, history wouldn't keep repeating itself."

- - - Lily Tomlin

HubertPaul
June 16, 2003 - 09:31 am
Robby, it may sound simple, but it seems that we have to grow up by experiencing ourselves, not by what others tell us they have experienced. You know, like the little child after being told do not touch the hot stove, you'll get burnt and it will hurt. Does the child ever understand by just listening? All in the process of growing up......or down :>)

robert b. iadeluca
June 16, 2003 - 09:33 am
A relevant point, Hubert. We'll have to think about that. Does this suggest, then, that we might as well ignore history?

Robby

HubertPaul
June 16, 2003 - 09:42 am
Robby, no, of course not, history points out the road. But we have to travel it ourselves, stumble and pick ourselves up on the way.

Percivel
June 16, 2003 - 01:07 pm
>A relevant point, Hubert. We'll have to think about that. Does this suggest, then, that we might as well ignore history?<<


At least we should recognize an error when we make one. More importantly is to understand why it ws an error.

Éloïse De Pelteau
June 16, 2003 - 01:23 pm
Percival, then if we learn by our mistakes, should there be less of them instead of more? Or what is it that will tell us that the mistakes we make are really mistakes instead of something that is a necessary purge for moving forward?

Percivel
June 16, 2003 - 01:48 pm
>Percival, then if we learn by our mistakes, should there be less of them instead of more? Or what is it that will tell us that the mistakes we make are really mistakes instead of something that is a necessary purge for moving forward? <<


The problem is that many do not read history, thereby not allowing themselves to learn from mistatkes. Historyically, I don't think there has ever been a "purge" that worked well. Therefore, purges should be seen as mistakes.

If I have never touched a hot stove, I am only taking someone's word that it is hot and will hurt me. In touching the stove and getting burnt, I pay more attention to what that person has told me. The real mistake is getting burned twice.

robert b. iadeluca
June 16, 2003 - 05:32 pm
"The resistance to Atheniam policy came from nearly every state in Greece. Boeotia fought off at Coronea (447) the attempt of Athens to include it in the empire. Some subject cities, and others that feared to become subject, appealed to Sparta to check the Athenian power.

The Spartans were not eager for war, knowing the strength and valor of the Athenian fleet. But the old racial antipathy between Dorian and Ionian inflamed them, and the Athenian custom of establishing in every city democracies dependent upon the Empire seemed to the landowning oligarchy of Sparta a threat to aristocratic government everywhere.

"For a time the Spartans contented themselves with supporting the upper classes in every city, and slowly forging a united front against Athens."

Are we seeing a class war developing?

Robby

Justin
June 16, 2003 - 09:44 pm
Class warfare: Yes, democrats vrs. aristocrats. The battle is still underway except today the antagonists are called Democrats and Republicans.

Justin
June 16, 2003 - 10:03 pm
I agree, Bert, history is a road map to guide us but when decisions are to be made the decision maker never seems to review history or to have even recalled previous experiences with the same set of conditions. However, there are exceptions. George Patton who was a student of military history often recalled similarities between his battle conditions and those of generals in other wars, when discussing after battle reports with the press. He frequently quoted from Thucydides, and Herodotus.

robert b. iadeluca
June 17, 2003 - 04:16 am
"Pericles calculated that the army could protect Attica, or all of Attica's population gathered within Athens' walls. The navy could keep open the routes by which Euxine or Egyptian grain might enter Athens' walled port. It was his judgment that no real concessions could be made without endangering that supply of food. It seemed to him, as now to England, a choice between empire and starvation.

"Nevertheless he sent envoys to all the Greek states, inviting them to an Hellenic Conference which would seek a peaceful solution of the problems that were leading to war. Sparta refused to attend, feeling that her acceptance would be construed as an acknowledgment of Athenian hegemony, and at her secret suggestion so many other states rejected the invitation that the project fell through.

"Meanwhile, says Thucydides, in a sentence that explains much history -- 'The Peloponnesus and Athens were both full of young men whose inexperience made them eager to take up arms.'"

Young men eager to take up arms. Ah - youth!

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
June 17, 2003 - 04:21 am
Let us pause a brief moment from the Peloponnesian war and make a visit to the Athens of the present. In the summer of 2004 many of us here who will be watching the OLYMPICS IN ATHENS will be watching Greece as well and bringing back memories of this discussion group. According to this article, NBC has promised us that they will concentrate on Greece itself as well as on the Olympics.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
June 17, 2003 - 07:34 am

Not all youths are eager to take up arms. When the war in Iraq began I asked my 18 year old grandson how he and his friends felt about it. He told me he and they hated the idea. I asked him if he'd ever volunteer to be in military service. His answer was an emphatic "No!" He said he thinks wars don't make any sense and don't accomplish anything. His friends feel the same way, and I don't believe this indicates that any of them are unpatriotic.

Mal

Éloïse De Pelteau
June 17, 2003 - 09:08 am
"The problem is that many do not read history, thereby not allowing themselves to learn from mistatkes.

Dictators have learned about history, some are/were very well versed on the subject. It did not deter them from wanting to invade their neighbours.

Young people don't easily take advice from past generations feeling that they are the ones responsible for the mess the world is in. The young people want to start with a clean slate and redo the world according to their new ideas and are willing to take the risk.

"The Peloponnesus and Athens were both full of young men whose inexperience made them eager to take up arms."

Eloïse

Percivel
June 17, 2003 - 02:42 pm
>Dictators have learned about history, some are/were very well versed on the subject. It did not deter them from wanting to invade their neighbours.


Young people don't easily take advice from past generations feeling that they are the ones responsible for the mess the world is in. The young people want to start with a clean slate and redo the world according to their new ideas and are willing to take the risk. <<

Your second paragraphs helps to answer your first paragraph and your first paragraphs assumes that dictators understand history. To the contrary, dictators tend to pick and choose historical events to justify goal achieving behaviors.

To dictators, the end always justifies the means and Saddam is/was a clear example. Sadly, perhaps the use of the Patriot Act is another example. Justify stomping on tradional civil rights by pointing to the potential of capturing "terrorists." The next step is to only see one's political enemies as terrorists or traitors.

robert b. iadeluca
June 17, 2003 - 02:51 pm
"In 435 Corcyra, a Corinthian colony, declared itself independent of Corinth. Presently she joined the Athenian Confederacy for protection. Corinth sent a fleet to reduce the island. Athens, appealed to by the victorious democrats of Corcyra, sent a fleet to help them

"An indecisive battle took place, in which the navies of Corcyra and Athens fought against those of Megara and Corinth. In 432 Potidaea, a city in Chalcidice tributary to Athens but Corinthian in blood, attempted to expel the Athenian power. Pericles sent an army to besiege it, but its resistance continued for two years, and weakened the military resources and prestige of Athens. When Megara gave further help to Corinth Pericles ordered all Megarian products excluded from the markets of Attica and the empire.

"Megara and Corinth appealed to Sparta. Sparta proposed to Athens a repeal of this Megarian decree. Pericles agreed on condition that Sparta permit foreign states to trade with Laconia. Sparta refused. Instead, she laid down as a prerequisite to peace, that Athens should acknowledge the full independence of all Greek cities -- i.e. that Athens should surrender her Empire.

"Pericles persuaded the Athenians to reject this demand. Sparta declared war."

My father can lick your father!

Robby

Percivel
June 17, 2003 - 03:02 pm
>My father can lick your father!<<


Hmmm! Robby do I detect an anti-violence, anti-war agenda on your part? Sure is begining to look like it.

robert b. iadeluca
June 17, 2003 - 03:13 pm
Pervicel:--Perhaps you can come up with a better analogy to the attitudes between the Athenian Confederacy and Sparta. Is it not a contest of power? Pericles was choosing "between Empire and starvation." Sparta wanted Athens to surrender her Empire.

The bystanders were lining up as to which father they would choose.

Robby

Percivel
June 17, 2003 - 03:20 pm
>Is it not a contest of power? Pericles was choosing "between Empire and starvation." Sparta wanted Athens to surrender her Empire.


The bystanders were lining up as to which father they would choose.<<

You answer your own question. It was a contest of power, but not reduced to a child like descriptor such as "my daddy can whip your daddy." Athens faced starvation and Sparta faced a world in which political self determination would be lost.

It was your use of child like words that brought about the questioning of your motives.

robert b. iadeluca
June 17, 2003 - 04:05 pm
Percivel:--I don't have motives in facilitating this discussion.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
June 17, 2003 - 04:21 pm
"Every state in the Peloponnesus except Argos supported Sparta. So did Corinth, Megara, Boeotia, Locris, and Phocis. Athens, at the outset, had the half-hearted help of the Ionian and Euxine cities and the Aegean isles. Like the World War of our own time, the first phase of the struggle was a contest between sea power and land power.

"The Athenian fleet laid waste the coastal towns of the Peloponnesus, while the Spartan army invaded Attica, seized the crops, and ruined the soil. Pericles called the population of Attica within the walls of Athens, refused to let his troops go out to battle, and advised the excited Athenians to bide their time and wait for their navy to win the war.

"His caluclations were strategically sound, but they ignored a factor that almost decided the conflict. A plague killed a fourth of the soldiers and a great number of the civilian population. The people, desperate with the combined sufferings of epidemic and war, accused Pericles of responsibility for both. Cleon and others indicted him on the charge of misusing public funds. Since he had apparently employed state money to bribe the Spartan kings to peace, he was unable to give a satisfactory accounting. He was convicted, deposed from office, and fined the enormous sum of fifty talents ($300,000).

"About the same time (429) his sister and his two legitimate sons died of the plague. The Athenians, finding no leader to replace him, recalled him to power (429) and, to show their esteem for him, and their sympathy in his bereavement, they overrode a law that he himself had passed, and bestowed citizenship upon the son that Aspasia had borne to him.

"But the aging stateman had himself been infected by the plague. He grew weaker day by day, and died within a few months after his restoration to office. Under him Athens had reached her zenith. But because that height had been attained in part through the wealth of an unwilling Confederacy, and through a power that invited almost universal hostility, the Golden Age was unsound in its foundations, and was doomed to disaster when Athenian statesmanship faled in the strategy of peace."

Robby

Justin
June 17, 2003 - 05:41 pm
It is surprising to me that the Athenians under Pericles was able to blockade Corinth for two years. The city straddles the canal between the peninsula and the mainland and is a hub for shipping and trade. The blockade occurred at a time when Pericles was attempting to expand trade at the expense of the Persians. Pericles' objective, I think, should have been to keep the canal open.

depfran
June 17, 2003 - 05:55 pm
Greeks are a very proud race. One day a Greek born in Sparta told me. Greeks are very stupid. There will be a road blocked by police to stop the cars to warn them "Don't go on that road or you will get stuck in the snow" and they will curse the policeman and drive along anyway to get stuck later.

Greeks faced a big obstacle in creating a unified nation. Maybe because the principle of trade and commerce was not based on collective wealth. Then, there would always be a reason for quarrels.

There is a French saying about the ever so new politicians who come to power. "Plus ça change, plus c'est pareil"

Françoise

Malryn (Mal)
June 17, 2003 - 06:24 pm

A small correction: Françoise, Greeks are not a race.

Percivel, Robby Iadeluca is the most objective discussion leader I have ever known anywhere, online or off. I have never known him to have ulterior motives or to be manipulative in any of the discussions he's facilitated in which I have participated. I believe this is the fourth one I've been in over a period of several years.

Mal

Percivel
June 17, 2003 - 07:54 pm
Percivel, Robby Iadeluca is the most objective discussion leader I have ever known anywhere, online or off. I have never known him to have ulterior motives or to be manipulative in any of the discussions he's facilitated in which I have participated. I believe this is the fourth one I've been in over a period of several years.<<


Thank you for your testimony. I am sure that Robby appreciates it. However, I am not a tomato just fallen off the truck. I have been on line for over ten years and I am fully capable of making judgements lake this for myself without your help.

Malryn (Mal)
June 17, 2003 - 08:07 pm

Who said you weren't?

Look, Percivel, we're a friendly group here and have been for a couple of years. Why don't you join the circle instead of throwing punches? I'm sure with your background as a history teacher you have much to offer.

Mal

Justin
June 17, 2003 - 10:23 pm
I have thought back over the last 6000 years searching for another Golden Age comparable to that of Greece and can not find one that even comes close. One might wish to compare Florence in the Renaisance or the US in the twentieth century but there is really little justification for equating these periods.

It was the simultaneous coming together of so many wonderful and diverse elements in one place that gave The Golden Age in Greece its brilliancy. It was the philosophers overcoming religion among the aristocracy and the laying down of guide posts for later thinkers in logic, in mathematics, and in other thought processes. It was the acomplshments in art, in architecture, in sculpture. It was the freedom and influence of the heterai. It was the prosperity derived from the confederation. It was the development of democracy, the creation of a rule of law,and the expansion of trade. It was all of these elements that made the Golden age so golden.

Bubble
June 18, 2003 - 01:11 am
Mal, How would you translate "le peuple" grec? I cannot find a satisfying collective word for peuple. people seems to be subtly different. Thanks. Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
June 18, 2003 - 03:01 am
Justin:--Thank your for that "summary" in your Post 104. As we prepare to leave the Golden Age of Greece it is helpful for us to see in concise form exactly what made that short period of time so important in history and why it was so influential in later years and centuries.

I read that post a number of times. You packed much into that small paragraph.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
June 18, 2003 - 04:02 am

BUBBLE, my dictionary says race means "A local geographic or global human population distinguished as a more or less distinct group by genetically transmitted physical characteristics."

I would say, "The Greeks are proud people." Frankly, I don't think the word, "race", should be used to describe anything except competitions like the Indianapolis 500 or the Kentucky Derby or the Boston Marathon.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
June 18, 2003 - 04:07 am
Justin:--In re-reading your post, I have put some of your observations together and have come up with a semi-conclusion. It is probably over-simplified and perhaps completely false but I would be interested in your reaction.

My conclusion is that the Golden Age was the result of a weakening of religion. For example -- philosophy overcoming religion among the aristocracy -- a growth of "thinking" (e.g. logic) which opposes faith -- influence of the heterai which, if I understand correctly were women who were, in effect, "liberated women" who thought for themselves and were not "imprisoned" by religious beliefs -- development of democracy, i.e. giving power to the common people to not follow religious tenets if they so chose -- expansion of trade which brought people of all classes into contact with many others who had different religions or none at all.

Oversimplified?

Robby

Bubble
June 18, 2003 - 04:18 am
Race does not fit, you are right. Languages are frustrating at times!



Liberated women helped to attain a Golden Age. I like that Robby.

moxiect
June 18, 2003 - 05:02 am


"Percival Thank you for your testimony. I am sure that Robby appreciates it. However, I am not a tomato just fallen off the truck. I have been on line for over ten years and I am fully capable of making judgements lake this for myself without your help."

As a history teacher your observations on the past are informative! Your judgment is highly observed here on-line is welcomed but to imply what you about Robby is unwarranted.

For you information I have been on-line well over 10 years and tend to remain silient until I have something to say. I like reading the discussion here on history of civilization as no one I repeat no one beats anyone over their head for their point of view. So please do not destroy your input by being bias about anyone, it is very distracting.

Éloïse De Pelteau
June 18, 2003 - 05:57 am
Bubble, "Le Peuple Grec" I often hear "Le Peuple Juif".

I think in English about 20% of the time, perhaps less. I understand Fran because she does not use English very often either and I think she has a very good command of English and slight differences in meaning of one word is not what is important in my view. It is the general idea. We am fortunate to even be able to participate and join in with this group who are very tolerent with regards to slight discrepencies in language use.

Eloïse

Malryn (Mal)
June 18, 2003 - 06:27 am

There must be a full moon.

No offense was intended by my correcting what Françoise said. If I were speaking in my rudimentary French to someone whose native language was French, I would expect -- and want -- that person to point out my errors so I could learn. Actually, in English there is more than a slight difference between the word, "race", and the word, "people". We hear about "race riots", but seldom hear anything about "people riots", for example.

Mal

Percivel
May 12, 2003 - 03:16 pm
>Look, Percivel, we're a friendly group here and have been for a couple of years. Why don't you join the circle instead of throwing punches<<


Throwing punches??? I asked a question and you got defensive. I am not angry at anyone, but your secondary assummptions might make me so.

Éloïse De Pelteau
June 18, 2003 - 06:38 am
Justin, "It was all of these elements that made the Golden age so golden." Wonderfully said.

Malryn (Mal)
June 18, 2003 - 06:49 am

Here are some links. Now, in order to keep peace in this family that means so much to me, I'm going to disappear for a while.

The Delian League

Background, Persian and Peloponnesian Wars



"In Favor of the Peloponnesian War", an oration by Pericles

The Plague in Athens during the Pelponnesian War

robert b. iadeluca
June 18, 2003 - 11:55 am
And now -- back to Ancient Greece --

"The new masters of the democratic party were merchants like Cleon the dealer in leather, Eucrates the rope seller, Hyperbolus the lampmaker. These men demanded an active war on land as well as sea. Cleon was the ablest of them, the most eloquent, unscrupulous, and corrupt. He was the first in a long line of demagogues that ruled Athens from the death of Pericles to the loss of Athenian independence at Chaeronea (338).

"Cleon's ability was proved in 425 when the Athenian fleet besieged a Spartan army on the island of Sphacteria, near Messenan Pylus. No admiral seemed capable of taking the stronghold, but when the Assembly gave Cleon charge of the siege (half hoping that he would be killed in action), he surprised all by carrying through the attack with a skill and courage that forced the Lacedaemonians to an unprecedented surrender.

"Sparta, humbled, offered peace and alliance in return for the captured men, but Cleon's oratory persuaded the Assembly to reject the offer and continue the war. His hold on the populace was strengthened by a proposal, easily carried, that the Athenians should henceforth pay no taxes to the support of the war, but should finance it by raising the tribute exacted of the subject cities in the Empire (424).

"In these cities, as in Athens, the policy of Cleon was to get as much money out of the rich as he could find. When the upper classes of Mytilene rebelled, overthrew the democracy, and declared Lesbos free of allegiance to Athens (429), Cleon moved that all adult males in the disaffected city be put to death. The Assembly -- perhaps a mere quorum -- agreed, and sent a ship with orders to that effect to Paches, the Athenian general who had put down the revolt. When the word of the ruthless edict got about Athens the steadier heads called for another meeting of the Assembly, secured the repeal of the decree, and dispatched a second ship which reached Paches just in time to prevent a massacre.

"Paches sent to Athens a thousand ringleaders who, at Cleon's suggestion, and in accordance with the custom of the age, were all put to death."

If I am understanding this correctly, after Pericles died, unscrupulous businessmen like Cleon took over the reins. The Assembly did not want the war, especially with this businessman to be in charge, but he took over the navy and laid a successful siege. Cleon (a middle-class businessman) then tried to get money out of the Mytilene aristocracy but they rebelled. He then wanted all the Mytilene adult males killed and almost got the Athenian Assembly to agree, ending up killing only the rebel leaders.

Are we again seeing a class conflict within the Athenian Empire?

Robby

Justin
June 18, 2003 - 10:36 pm
Robby; Your paraphrase of my summary has much merit.I had not thought it might all be tied to a weakening of religion, but it's possible, isn't it? It is an interesting thesis.

Justin
June 18, 2003 - 10:58 pm
Mal; If you are going to disappear, just go to the johnny and hurry right back.

Justin
June 18, 2003 - 11:09 pm
Françoise: It is interesting that you should see trade as an obstacle in creating a unified nation.The profit motive may have kept each settlement in Magna Gracia independent, however, if they saw themselves as Greeks against Persia the Confederation would have lasted. I think the Athenian sense of empire and their strong domination of the settlements tended to end any chance of unification. Certainly, Creon's act ordering the massacre of the entire male population of a rebel island did little to encourage a desire for unification. You are right. These people had little sense of togetherness.

robert b. iadeluca
June 19, 2003 - 04:18 am
"Cleon redeemed himself by dying in battle against the Spartan hero Brasidas. Sparta, left leaderless in the face of a threatened Helot revolt, offered peace again. Athens, for once taking the advice of the oligarchic leader, signed the Peace of Nicias (421). The rival cities not only declared the war ended, but signed an alliance for fifty years, and Athens committed herself to go to the help of Sparta should the Helots rise.

"Three factors turned this pledge of a half century of friendship into a brief truce of six years -- the diplomatic corruption of the peace into 'war by other means,' the rise of Alcibiades as the leader of a faction that favored renewed hostilities, and the attempt of Athens to conquer the Dorian colonies in Sicily.

"Sparta's allies refused to sign the agreement. They fell away from Sparta and transferred their alliance to Athens. Alcibiades, while keeping Athens formally at peace, maneuvered them into a war with Sparta, and united them in battle against her at Mantinea (418).

Sparta won, and Greece relapsed into an angry truce."

A new leader who wanted war and who apparently got what he wanted.

Any comments?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
June 19, 2003 - 06:09 am

During this discussion I have often thought what it would be like if we in the United States were like Athens and Magna Graecia with one powerful Athenian state like New York or California and 49 others who vied and fought with each other while trying to tear down the powerful one. Is being united what has held this democracy together for longer than Greece's Golden Age and the democratic age of Pericles? Or is it the fact that we are a democratic republic?

Click the links below to read about Magna Graecia and to see a timeline map which shows it.

Magna Graecia



Maps, Magna Graecia

robert b. iadeluca
June 19, 2003 - 06:16 am
Excellent links and marvelous series of maps, Mal. It's enlightening to concentrate on the yellow (representing the Greeks) and to see how their power grew (at one time including practically all of Sicily) and then diminished -- then concentrating on the red (representing the Romans) and watching their power grow from a small spot at Rome to practically all of Italy.

Robby

depfran
June 19, 2003 - 06:27 am
Mal, no offense taken, sincerely, it is here for me a place of great learning and I enjoy this discussion immensely.

Yes, Justin, I take the exemple of India who conquered 300 years of English domination by removing the powerful trade of the English empire and becoming one force using India's own cotton and salt. Has for the beginning of the downfall of the Greeks golden age I humbly believe that unfortunatly, the greatest wealth of Athens was something which could not be sold, beauty and hegemony.

Françoise

robert b. iadeluca
June 19, 2003 - 06:39 am
Yes, Francoise, as Durant moves us along it will be interesting to see exactly what brought the downfall of Ancient Greece.

Robby

Percivel
June 19, 2003 - 06:55 am
>A new leader who wanted war and who apparently got what he wanted.<<


Don't think this is truly possible. Can't remember off the top of my head. Was it Rousseau or Hobbs who said that government is a social contract between the governing and the governed? No group action can occur without the tacit approval given by a large percentage of its participating menbers. Besides, war requires cannon fodder. Don't think slaves make very good combatants.

Shasta Sills
June 19, 2003 - 02:41 pm
Well, why didn't anybody tell me this discussion had resumed? I'm trying to get caught up. I want to comment on something Mal said earlier--that she felt she was talking to herself because nobody else was participating. And Robby said we may not be interested in music. I know nothing about music but I love to hear experts talk about it! I think a lot of other participants do not realize the discussion has resumed either.

Malryn (Mal)
June 19, 2003 - 03:44 pm

There was only a one month period between the end of Durant's "Our Oriental Heritage" and when we began to discuss Volume II of The Story of Civiization, "Live of Greece". This discussion of "Life of Greece" began November 20, 2002.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
June 19, 2003 - 03:58 pm
Shasta:--It's so good to see you back again!

As indicated by Mal, for all intents and purposes, we hardly ever stopped. So be forwarned -- after we complete The Life of Greece, we will take a brief break and then move on to Durant's third volume, "Caesar and Christ." So many participants (and lurkers!) here have told me that they are looking forward to the Romans that I do not even ask any more!

We are looking forward to your continued participation.

I'm wondering, too, if you receive Pat Westerdale's monthly Book Bytes. Each month she has been promoting The Life of Greece and giving a link.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
June 19, 2003 - 05:57 pm
"Alcibiades was one of those who, in the Assembly,defended the resolution condemning the male population of Melos to death. His support for any motion usually sufficed to carry it, for he was admired for his eloquence, his good looks, his versatile genius, even his faults and crimes. His father, the rich Cleinias, had been killed at the battle of Coronea. His mother, an Alcmaconid and near relaative of Pericles, had persuaded the statesman to bring up Alcibiades in his home.

"The boy was troublesome, but intelligent and brave. At twenty he fought beside Socrates at Potidaea, and at twenty-six at Delium (424). The philosopher seems to have felt a warm attachment for the youth, and called him to virtue, says Plutarch, with words that 'so overcame Alcibiades as to draw tears from his eyes, and disturb his very soul. Yet sometimes he would abandon himself to flatterers, when they proposed to varieties of pleasure, and would desert Socrates, who would then pursue him as if he had been a figitive slave.'

"The wit and pranks of the young man became the shocked and fascinated gossip of Athens. When Pericles reproved his immodest dogmatism by saying that he too had talked cleverly in his youth, Alcibiades answered, 'Pity I couldn't have known you when your brain was at its best.'

"The next morning he entered the house of the frightened magnate, bared his body, and begged Hipponicus to scourge him in punishment. The old man was so overwhelmed that he gave the youth his daughter Hipparete in marriage, with a dowry of ten talents. Alcibiades persuaded him to double it, and spent most of it on himself.

"He lived on a scale of luxury never known in Athens before. He filled his home with costly furniture, and engaged artists to paint pictures on the walls. He kept a stud of racing horses, and often won the chariot race at Olympia. Once his entries took the first, second, and fourth prizes in one contest, whereupon he feasted the whole Assembly.

"He fitted out triremes, and paid the expenses of chorus. When the state called for war contributors his donations topped all the rest. Free from any inhibition of conscience, convention, or fear, he frolicked through youth and early manhood with such animal spirits that all Athens seemed to enjoy his happiness."

What is it about us "common people" that we enjoy observing the excesses of celebrities? Witness the various magazines at check-out counters.

Robby

Justin
June 20, 2003 - 12:02 am
Robby; Have you been grocery shopping again?

Shasta: Where have you been all this time? The parade is passing by.

Alcibiades and Socrates were lovers. The boy, Alcibiades, treated the man shamefully. Too many outside interests.

robert b. iadeluca
June 20, 2003 - 03:28 am
"It was the imagination of Alcibiades that ruined the work of Pericles. Athens had recovered from the plague and the war, and trade was again bringing her the wealth of the Aegean. Alcibiades dreamed of carving out a new realm for Athens in the rich cities of Italy and Sicily.

"There Athens would find grain, materials, and men. There she would control the foreign food supply of the Peloponnesus. There she might double the tribute that was making her the greatest city in Greece.

"If Athens could take Syracuse all the western Mediterranean would fall into her lap, and a splendor would come to Athens such as even Pericles had not conceived."

Any comments regarding the first GREEN quote above?

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
June 20, 2003 - 06:22 am
"The law of every being is self-development. No ambition, no empire, is ever content."

Robby, I agree and especially the three last words.

Malryn (Mal)
June 20, 2003 - 06:54 am

Links to maps of Greece and pictures. Scroll down to see a picture of a bust of Alcibiades

Alcibiades

Malryn (Mal)
June 20, 2003 - 06:56 am

Alcibiades by Plutarch

Alcibiades by Plato. Scroll to the right to see Plato's work

Malryn (Mal)
June 20, 2003 - 07:03 am

Picture: The Drunken Alcibiades at the Symposium by Rubens

Shasta Sills
June 20, 2003 - 03:11 pm
Just to convince myself that I'm not losing my mind (I have to check on that now and then), I went back and found a break in the discussion from March 23 to June 6. That's two months. Did my computer block out two months of discussion?

Malryn (Mal)
June 20, 2003 - 03:21 pm

Shasta, I checked the Outline, and you are right, there is a gap between March 23 and June 6. That gap didn't happen in real time here. Apparently it happened when the discussion was transferred to Archives. How unfortunate!

Mal

jane
June 20, 2003 - 04:11 pm
Shasta and Mal: Where in the outline do you see a break of two months? When I click on Outline I see my first post, reminding people to subscribe, on June 6.

When these discussions reach 1000 posts or so, we're asked to archive that portion of the discussion and open a new one. We've been doing that in many discussions for a long time.

If you look above in the header, you'll see the previous 4 parts of SOC, vol. 11. Part 4 covers the dates from March 23- June 6. "Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant ~ Volume II, Part 4 ~ Nonfiction" 6/6/03 8:28pm

This part (which will be part 5) continued on June 6 to the present.

There is no gap; nothing has been lost.

I'm still confused about what "gap" you see in the outline???

robert b. iadeluca
June 21, 2003 - 03:49 am
"In 427 Sicily, imitating the mainland, had divided into warring camps, one led by Dorian Syracuse, the other by Ionian Leontini. Leontini sent Gorgias to Athens to seek help, but Athens was then too weak to respond. Now in 416, Segesta dispatched envoys to Athens to say that Syracuse was planning to subjugate all Sicily, make the island Dorian in government, and supply food and money to Sparta should the great war be renewed.

Alcibiades leaped to his opportunity. He argued that the Sicilian Greeks were hopelessly divided, even within each city -- that it would be a simple matter -- given a little courage -- to annex the whold island to the Empire, that the empire must continue to grow, or begin to decay -- that a little war now and then was a necessary training for an imperial race. Nicias pled with the Assembly not to listen to any man whose personal extravagance tempted him to wild schemes of aggrandizement. But the eloquence of Alcibiades and the imagination of a people now dangerously free from moral scruples won the day.

"The Assembly declared war against Syracuse, voted funds for a vast armada and, as if to ensure defeat, divided the command between Alcibiades and Nicias."

A populace free of moral scruples and a passionate speaker who sees war as good for an empire. The plot thickens!!

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
June 21, 2003 - 08:10 am

Jane, the last post on Part III is dated March 23rd.

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
June 21, 2003 - 08:14 am

Is Will Durant suggesting that the lack of moral scruples is because of the lack of a religion? I thought philosophy took the place of that.

Alcibiades was a dangerous man if he thought "a little war now and then was a necessary training for an imperial race". A whole lot of people throughout history have gotten themselves in trouble for thinking the same thing.

Mal

jane
June 21, 2003 - 09:09 am
Mal...Yes, the last post in Part 3 is dated March 23, 2003.

And the first post in PART 4 (listed right below Part 3 in the header here) is dated March 23, 2003 and continues the posts through June 6, 2003.

Do you not see Part 4 listed above under Parts 1,2, and 3?

The current discussion will become Part 5. It started on June 6, as a continuation of Part 4, and will continue through 1000 or so posts.

I get the feeling that your browser isn't showing PART 4 in the list above? What browser are you using?

Do you and Shasta not seen this in the header???





Story of Civilization, Vol II, Part 1
Story of Civilization, Vol. II, Part 2
Story of Civilization, Vol. II, Part 3
Story of Civilization, Vol. II, Part 4

Éloïse De Pelteau
June 21, 2003 - 09:33 am
Jane I get all 4 parts and there is no gap. I guess all browsers do not operate the same way.

Mal, I wonder if "a little war now and then was a necessary training for an imperial race" and can a war ever be a little war as Durant points out?

Malryn (Mal)
June 21, 2003 - 09:47 am

Jane, I'm using MSIE 6, and it shows the first post in Part 4 as June 6th.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
June 21, 2003 - 11:00 am
I just got a phone call from Dr. and Mrs. Durant who assure me that all the archives are in order and that Alcibiades, egoist that he is, is anxiously waiting for us to pay attention to him.

Robby

Justin
June 21, 2003 - 12:26 pm
A divided command is a sure road to failure. I don't understand why the Greek assembly did that.

We had that problem in the Pacific theatre in WW11, you remember. Mac Arthur and Nimitz were in conflict and in tandem. Roosevelt and Marshall split the theatre in two. Nimitz got the central route and Mac Arthur got the southern route.

Justin
June 21, 2003 - 12:32 pm
The law of every being is self development. No one is content. Leave it to the Durants to express the prime motive force in mankind and they will express it. We are all well into retirement and here we are striving for self development. Striving to express what we understand of history in light of what Durant says.

robert b. iadeluca
June 21, 2003 - 12:57 pm
"Preparations went on with the characteristic fever of war, and the occasion of the fleet's departure was awaited as a patriotic festival. Shortly before this appointed day a strange occurrence shocked a city that had lost much of its piety but none of its superstitutions. Some unknown persons, under cover of night, had knocked off the noses, ears, and phalli from the figures of the god Hermes that stood before public buildings and many private dwellings as an emblem of fertility and a guardian of the home.

"An excited investigator brought forward the unreliable evidence of aliens and slaves that the prank had been perpetrated by a drunken party of Alcibiades' friends, led by Alcibiades himself. The young general protested his innocence, and demanded to be tried at once, that he might be convicted or cleared before the departure of the fleet. His enemies, foreseeing his acquittal, succeeded in postponing the trial.

"So in 415 the great flotilla set sail, led by a timid pacifist who hated war, and by an audacious militarist whose genius of leadership was frustrated by the divided command, and the dread, among the crews, that he had incurred the enmity of the gods.

"The fleet had been gone some days when new evidence, as unreliable as before, was brought out to the effect that Alcibiades and his friends had participated in an impious mimicry of the Eleusinian Mysteries. Urged by an enraged populace, the Assembly sent the swift galley Salaminia to overtake Alcibiades and bring him back for trial. Alcibiades accept the summons and went aboard the Salaminia. But when the vessel stopped at Thurii he secretly made his way to shore, and escaped.

"The Athenian Assembly, baffled, pronounced judgment of exile upon him, with confiscation of all his property, and a decree of death in case the Athenians should ever capture him. Bitter at the thought that his plans for empire and glory had been frustrated by a condemnation which he continued to call unjust, Alcibiades took refuge in the Peloponneus and, appearing before the Spartan Assembly, proposed to help Sparta defeat Athens and establish there an aristocratic government.>P>"He advised them to send a fleet to help Syracuse and an army to capture Deceleia -- an Attic town whose possession should give Sparta military command of everything in Attica but Athens. The silver mines at Laurium would cease to finance Athenian resistance, and the subject cities, foreseeing the defeat of Athens, would stop their payment of tribute.

"Sparta took his advice."

A populace still believing in the gods and a militarist who believed only in himself. Anyone want to place any bets?

Robby

jane
June 21, 2003 - 01:29 pm
Apologies to Dr. and Mrs. Durant...but


Mal...how odd!

I use IE 6.0 too and when I click on Part 4, the last post is Jane DeNeve - 08:28pm Jun 6, 2003 PDT (#1036 of 1036)

and when I click on FIRST, I get the first post in Part 4:

Jane DeNeve - 03:12pm Mar 23, 2003 PDT (#1 of 1036)

Please email me if you continue to see Post 1 of 1036 above as dated June 6, 2003.
And now back to our regularly scheduled book discussion....

robert b. iadeluca
June 21, 2003 - 02:05 pm
May I emphasize Jane's request to email her or Mal or any other person on the topic of archives rather than continue the discussion in this forum. We don't want to get that militarist, Alcibiades, too angry!

Robby

Justin
June 21, 2003 - 02:26 pm
Athens is on the way to oblivion and they did it to themselves. Some one, I can't remember who, once said that we all carry the seeds of our own destruction.

Malryn (Mal)
June 21, 2003 - 02:31 pm
"My patriotism, too, I keep not at a time when I am being wronged, but only while I enjoyed my civil rights in security. Nor do I consider myself to be going against what is still my country, but much rather to be recovering that country which is mine no more. And the patriot, in the true sense, is not that man who, when he has unjustly lost his country, abstains from aggression upon it, but he who, because of his longing for it, endeavors by all means to regain it. Thus, as far as I am concerned, I beg you, Lacedæmonians, fearlessly to command my services, both for danger and trouble of every kind; knowing that argument which is advanced by all, namely, that if as your enemy I did you very great harm, I might also as your friend do you great service; inasmuch as I know the plans of the Athenians, while I only guessed yours. I beg, too, that on your own part also, being convinced that you are consulting about your greatest interests, you will not shrink from the expedition both against Sicily and Attica; that by joining them with a small part of your forces, you may at once preserve the great states in Sicily, and overthrow the present and future power of the Athenians; and may afterwards live in security yourselves, and enjoy a voluntary supremacy over the whole of Greece, resting not on force but on affection."

MORE

robert b. iadeluca
June 21, 2003 - 03:01 pm
I have learned so much from reading this book along with the rest of you. For example, I had no idea there was a Grecian Empire. I always visualized a small country named Greece with its main city called Athens. I knew that Syracuse was Grecian but didn't realize that it was part of Sicily and that practically all of Sicily was part of this Empire.

We had been examining century after century at a clip and all of a sudden I was brought to a sudden halt. I had no idea that all those wonderful men -- Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, Pericles, all the great sculptors, etc. -- i.e. the Golden Age -- all lived in a period no longer than the length of lives of most of us in this forum. That prior to that democracy did not exist and that shortly after that Greece began to commit suicide. All that to me is mind boggling.

I had no idea of the size of the Grecian fleet -- that they reached as far as Spain and even beyond.

I had no idea that Ancient Greece was, in a sense, as much Oriental as Occidental.

And now, in a day or two, Durant will take us through The Decline and Fall of Greek Freedom. I am beginning to find it almost impossible, as I read each post, not to constantly think of what is happening in our day. History has become so much more alive to me since, along with the rest of you, I embarked on this journey.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
June 21, 2003 - 03:06 pm
"My patriotism, too, I keep not at a time when I am being wronged, but only while I enjoyed my civil rights in security. Nor do I consider myself to be going against what is still my country, but much rather to be recovering that country which is mine no more."

That excerpt of Alcibiades's speech which you posted, Mal, is exactly the type of thing which keeps bringing my thoughts back to the present and I know that this why you posted it.

We may be reading about the past but it is helping me to understand more and more about our present.

Robby

Justin
June 21, 2003 - 03:35 pm
The final phrases of Alcibiades oration to the Spartans follows; " Overthrow the power of the Athenians and you may afterwards live in security yourselves and enjoy a voluntary supremacy over the whole of Greece resting not on force but on affection."
Are these phrases not what we read in our daily papers? Substitute the word Iraqi for Athenians and you have current news.

I am beginning to think we should have left well enough alone. The Iraqis do not appreciate our removing Saddam and would like us to go home. There does not seem to have been justification (WMD). Now we have tiger by the tail. They don't want our affection and their resentment toward us will be worsened if we let any of our Billy Sundays visit to tell them Islam is wrong. Only Gawd is right.

robert b. iadeluca
June 21, 2003 - 04:03 pm
"The intensity of Alcibiades's own resolution appeared in the completeness with which he, so accustomed, to luxury, took up the Spartan way of life. He became frugal and reserved, eating coarse food, wearing a rough tunic and no shoes, bathing in the Eurotas winter and summer, and observing all Lacedaemonian laws and customs faithfully.

"Even so his good looks and personal fascination ruined his plans. The Queen fell in love with him, bore him a son, and proudly whispered to her friends that he was the father. He excused himself to his intimates on the ground that he could not resist the chance to establish his race as kings over Laconia.

"King Agis, who had been away with the army, started home, and Alcibiades conveniently secured a commission in a Spartan squadron that was sailing to Asia. The King disowned the child and sent out secret orders for the assassination of Alcibiades.

"But the latter's friends warned him, and he escaped and joined the Persian admiral Tissaphernes at Sardis."

Robby

tooki
June 21, 2003 - 08:35 pm
Never mind orations and wars and such. Rather, "we are here as on a darkling shore, where ignorant armies clash by night," and we should speak of love. In post 130 Justin says, "Alcibiades and Socrates were lovers." Can this be true? Lovers like nowadays? Or rather lovers in that strange Greek way called "intercrural intercourse?" Where did you secure such evidence, Justin? Here's some pottery by Brygos Painter illustrating the strange Greek practice. Intercrural Intercourse

Malryn (Mal)
June 21, 2003 - 08:58 pm

Well, I don't know. I just finished reading a submittal to WREX. There's this very sexy floor covering, see, and . . . . So, I come in to this place of intellectual thought, and I find . . . . There must be something in the air.

Earlier I was thinking that the story of Alcibiades would make a wonderful opera. I did a search on it and found no operas except those that are the plural of opus. Alciabiades has been in many plays and books, though.

See you tomorrow, folks. It's time for me to get some sleep.

Mal

Justin
June 21, 2003 - 11:45 pm
Tooki: The source for Alcibiades and Socrates was probably Plutarch. I will confirm that when I return home. However, The Durants refer to the relationship as well on page 444. The Durant's description is more in keeping with the mores of 1935 but still indicative of a warm intimate friendship between a man and a youth.

robert b. iadeluca
June 22, 2003 - 04:57 am
Tooki:--Good to see you posting again!!

The words on Page 444 to which Justin refers:--

"The boy was troublesome, but intelligent and brave. At twenty he fought beside Socrates at Potidaea, and at twenty-six at Delium. The philosopher seems to have felt a warm attachment for the youth, and called him to virtue, says Plutarch, with words that 'so overcame Alcibiades as to draw tears from his eyes, and disturb his very soul. Yet sometimes he would abandon himself to flatterers, when they proposed to him varieties of pleasure, and would desert Socrates, who would then pursue him as if he had been a fugitive slave."

We may interpret that any way we choose but we have been constantly reminding ourselves in this discussion group not to look at the customs and mores of people from different lands and millennia ago through our own eyes. It is not for us to be judgmental. What is right and wrong? What is good and bad?

But then we have discussed that sub-topic in detail many times, haven't we?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
June 22, 2003 - 05:15 am
"At the other end of the war front Nicias was encountering a resistance which only Alcibiades' genius for strategy and intrigue could have overcome. Nearly all of Sicily came to the aid of Syracuse.

In 414 a Spartan fleet under Gylippus helped the Sicilian navy to bottle up the Athenian ships in the harbor of Syracuse, cutting them off from any supply of food.

A final chance to escape was lost because of an eclipse of the moon, which frightened Nicias and many of his soldiers into awaiting an opportunity more satisfactory to the gods. On the next day, however, they found themselves surrounded, and were forced to give battle. They were defeated, first on sea and then on land. Nicias, though ill and weak, fought bravely, and at last surrendered to the mercy of the Syracusans.

"He was at once put to death. The surviving Athenians, almost all of the citizen class, were sent to die at hard labor in the quarries of Sicily, where they tasted the fate of the men who for generations had worked the mines of Laurium."

We are watching Greece die before our very eyes.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
June 22, 2003 - 06:28 am

From Plutarch:

"He (Alcibiades) esteemed these endeavours of Socrates as most truly a means which the gods made use of for the care and preservation of youth, and began to think meanly of himself and to admire him; to be pleased with his kindness, and to stand in awe of his virtue; and, unawares to himself, there became formed in his mind that reflex image and reciprocation of Love, or Anteros, that Plato talks of."

MORE

ALCIBIADES BY PLATO

robert b. iadeluca
June 22, 2003 - 06:57 am
Mal:--Your "MORE" link leads to an excellent psychological character study of Alcibiades.

Robby

Percivel
June 22, 2003 - 08:06 am
What does "intercrural" mean? Not in my electronic dictionary.

robert b. iadeluca
June 22, 2003 - 09:36 am
A reading of the new GREEN quotes in the Heading gives us an idea of the direction in which Greece is going as it continues to commit suicide --

"Nearly half the citizen body was now enslaved or dead. Half the women of the citizen class were in effect widows, and the children were orphans. The funds that Pericles had accumulated in the treasury were almost exhausted. In another year the last penny would be gone.

"Thinking the fall of Athens imminent, the subject cities refused further tribute. Most of her allies abandoned her, and many flocked to the side of Sparta. In 413 Sparta, claiming that the 'fifty years' peace had been repeatedly violated by Athens, renewed the war.

"The Lacedaemonians now took and fortified Deceleia. The supply of food from Euboea and of silver from Laurium stopped. The slaves in the mines at Laurium revolted, and went over to the Spartans in a body of twenty thousand men. Syracuse sent an army to join in the attack.

"The Persian King, seeing an opportunity to avenge Marathon and Salamis, provided funds for the growing Spartan fleet, on the shameful understanding that Sparta would assist Persia in regaining mastery over the Greek cities of Ionia."

Any comments on the impending death of this civilization?

Robby

HubertPaul
June 22, 2003 - 10:29 am
Robby, yeah.. Can we learn anything? Should we take a good look in the mirror?

Bert

robert b. iadeluca
June 22, 2003 - 10:37 am
Hubert:--What did you see about our civilization when you looked in the mirror?

Robby

HubertPaul
June 22, 2003 - 10:56 am
Robby, civilizations come and go since the beginning of time.Why? Should we try to find out the reason, find some pattern, and see if we follow in the same footsteps? Does the downfall begin with too much lust for power, greed, haughtiness, pride..........?

That's what I see in the mirror.

Bert

Percivel
June 22, 2003 - 12:24 pm
> Does the downfall begin with too much lust for power, greed, haughtiness, pride..........? <<


Your answer is a bit narrow don't you think? It is probable that a better answer is that a population lost its common values and therefore, also lost the foundation upon which a civilization is constructed.

robert b. iadeluca
June 22, 2003 - 12:55 pm
Durant spoke of the relationship between Socrates and Alcibiades and Justin mentions that Durant speaks of this in the mores of 1935. I mentioned that there might be a tendency on the part of us to observe through the dark glasses of time and distance. Perhaps I should have added that our own individual "aging" may affect how we view gay and lesbian issues. Just how much has our own culture changed in the past fifty or so years? Is society today becoming more in tune with the society of Ancient Greece 2,500 years ago? Are we, as individuals, keeping our view narrow?

This ARTICLE shows changes that are occurring -- or, if you wish, reverting back to the mores of Ancient Greece and its Oriental culture.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
June 22, 2003 - 01:07 pm
Here is ANOTHER ARTICLE which points out that there is a definite divide between the attitude toward lesbians and gay men in the United States and the attitude of the rest of the world.

I was amazed at some of the information furnished here.

Robby

tooki
June 22, 2003 - 06:05 pm
I'm having some problems with post 168 about finding some pattern as to why civilizations rise and fall. And also with post 169 about civilizations, or populations, losing their common values.

After all,populations, cultures, and civilizations are composed of humans. Humans have values and patterns. Perhaps we should direct our attentions to what humans are like. When we have some grasp of what it means to be human, then, maybe we can talk about patterns, common values, and such. To try and discuss, in grand terms, "civilizations," seems to me to be too general. After all, look at the effect the grand rogue, Alcibiades, had on Greece's downfall. Greek individualism makes it difficult, for me, to theorize about civilizations.

robert b. iadeluca
June 22, 2003 - 07:04 pm
"Populations, cultures, and civilizations are composed of humans. Humans have values and patterns. Perhaps we should direct our attentions to what humans are like."

An excellent point, Tooki. Any comments here regarding that thought?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
June 22, 2003 - 07:13 pm
The human mind is so complex and things are so tangled up with each other that, to explain a blade of straw, one would have to take to pieces an entire universe. … A definition is a sack of flour compressed into a thimble.

- - - Remy de Gourmont

robert b. iadeluca
June 22, 2003 - 07:28 pm
"There are admirable potentialities in every human being. Believe in your strength and your truth. Learn to repeat endlessly to yourself. "It all depends on me."

- - - Andre Gide

HubertPaul
June 22, 2003 - 08:25 pm
Science frightenes man when it tells him that he is a most insignificant particle, a physiochemical process, in an immense universe.

Justin
June 22, 2003 - 10:02 pm
I am always amazed by the American brand of hypocracy exhibited when other countries are told to correct human right violations. Our treatment of gay citizens is abusive and we are not much better with other minorities. It took a violent social revolution to bring about the limited civil rights blacks experience today. It is less than 150 years since we, the last of many nations, ended slavery. Women of my mother's generation expected no more from life than a good husband and a well run household. Anti-semitism continues to be rampant and the self-serving people who inhabit some of our leading public offices make these problems worse by their lack of sensitivity and awareness.

Justin
June 22, 2003 - 10:39 pm
Like you Tooki, I think the grand explanation for the fall of Greece is superficial. The mechanics of the suicide are visible to all who read this section of Durant. But there is something in humans that causes such a demise. We have seen it all before. Babylonia, Sumeria, Egypt have all climbed to great heights and then reached too far, missed the brass ring, and colapsed of their own weight.

I think the igredient in humans that causes their downfall at the peak is arrogance. It was arrogance in the members of the Greek assembly that allowed them to pass a death sentence on Alcibiades for a religious infraction that was a drunken prank. It was arrogance that caused the assembly to vote to massacre a sizeable portion of the male population of Milos. It was arrogance that caused the assembly to reject Syracuse.

The Greek assembly is not a mechanical device. It is a collection of Greek citizens who were responsible for the policies of Athens. They were humans with human weaknesses. Where did this arrogance come from? It is concomitant with power and power in this case came from the trade of an empire.It came with wealth. Yes, it was arrogance that brought the Golden Age to an end. It was arrogance bred by the discontent of Athenians who strove for self-development, found success and wanted more.

robert b. iadeluca
June 23, 2003 - 03:45 am
"The government was put upon an economical footing, taxes and capital levies were collected to build a new fleet, and within a year of the defeat at Syracuse Athens was ready to contest Sparta's new mastery of the sea.

"Just as recovery seemed assured, the oligarchic faction, which had never favored the war and, indeed, looked to a Spartan victory to revive aristocracy in Athens, organized a revolt, seized the organs of government, and set up a supreme Council of Four Hundred (411). The Assembly, cowed by the assassination of many democratic leaders, voted its own abdication. The rich supported the rebellion as the only way of controlling the class war that had crossed the lines of the war between Athens and Sparta -- much as the strugle of the middle classes against aristocracy united the liberal factions in England and America in the American Revolution.

"Once in power, the oligarchs sent envoys to make peace with Sparta, and secretely prepared to admit the Spartan army into Athens. Meanwhile Theramenes, leader of a center party of moderate aristocrats, led a counterrevolution, and replaced the Four Hundred -- which had ruled some four months -- with a Council of Five Thousand (411).

"For a brief while Athens enjoyed the combination of democracy and aristocracy which seemed to Thucydides and Aristotle (aristocrats both) to have been the best and fairest government that Athens had known since Solon. But the second revolt, like the first, had forgotten that Athens depended for its food and life upon its navy, whose personnel, barring a few leaders, had been disfranchised by both revolutions. Incensed at the news, the sailors announced that unless the democracy were restored they would besiege Athens.

"The oligarchs waited hopefully for a Spartan army. The Spartans as usual were tardy. The new government took to its heels, and the victorious democrats restored the old constitution (411).

"The class war crossed the lines of the war between Athens and Sparta." The rich of the world uniting against the poor of the world -- ignoring national borders?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
June 23, 2003 - 04:23 am

Robby, stop. You're frightening me.

Why haven't we discussed Artistotle?

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
June 23, 2003 - 04:38 am
Mal:--Durant still has much to say about Aristotle as we move into The Decline and Fall of Greek Freedom. Of course, one can always comment on him at any time.

Robby

Percivel
June 23, 2003 - 06:18 am
>I think the igredient in humans that causes their downfall at the peak is arrogance.<<


Was it arrogance or simply a loss of common understanding and compassion, not only for the citizens of Athens; but for the world in general?

Just the contamination of language alone inpacts the ability to communicate. Radio and TV use to set some kind of standard in Englush usage, but no longer! Street English is standard fare and it changes daily.

Éloïse De Pelteau
June 23, 2003 - 07:03 am
Using correct languages requires effort that people are unwilling to make as we are used to having everything made easy for us with a 'push of a button'. School kids have much less homework than we used to have and they complain about it. Children make spelling mistakes that the nuns would never have allowed when I went to school. Being consistently late for school is not punished. Discipline is a nasty word against 'Human Rights'. We live in an "everything is OK" world.

I think that governments, religions, and even thinking can become corrupted. When too much corruption has been reached, it is time to remove the old and start from scratch, usually by force. Those at the top of the heap are not the majority and those at the bottom of the heap do not care much what happens to those on top.

How do we recognize that we have reached the top of the heap? We don't.

Eloïse

robert b. iadeluca
June 23, 2003 - 07:08 am
"Those at the bottom of the heap do not care much what happens to those on top."

Do you folks agree?

Robby

Shasta Sills
June 23, 2003 - 07:11 am
I wanted to comment on Robby's article about homosexuality in the U.S. today. He suggested we may be reverting to the mores of ancient Greece. I think there's a difference. We are finally beginning to accept the fact that some people are born to be homosexual and there is nothing they can do to change this, so we are trying to accept this behavior as normal for these particular individuals. However, in Greece, any sexual behavior was considered normal. It didn't matter if one was heterosexual or homosexual. He could do anything he wanted to.

By the way, Percivel, if you look up the word "crural" you will be able to figure out the answer to your question. I had never heard of that before either. The things you learn on Senior Net!

Malryn (Mal)
June 23, 2003 - 07:39 am

Languages change and so does the usage of them. The English I was taught was not what was taught a generation before mine, nor is it what is taught now.

William H. Strunk, Jr.'s book on the English language and its usage, The Elements of Style was a kind of bible a generation ago. Then it was revised by William H. White during my lifetime, and revised again in 1979. Now some of what is in that book has been passed by and people like William Safire and Patricia T. O'Connor have written books about how English should be and is spoken and written now. Who's to tell us what "pure" English should be when there's no way of telling what a pure language is unless it's a language not used any more like Latin.



Civilizations change, too. There's been a movement against war in my country and the world for a long time. People spoke out against the recent war and protested against it, not just here but all over the world. Leaders of that war did not listen. Was there any movement against war the Greeks waged which led to the downfall of Athens, and did anybody pay attention? Often a group of people can see what's happening to a civilization before leaders acknowledge it. In a democracy the majority rules, they say, but often a large part of that majority is sheeplike and plays "Follow the Leader," and justifies and rationalizes what he does, regardless how dangerous his game might be.



A friend of mine who is a former professor of economics told me that wars are almost always waged for economic reasons. Did the war the Athenians waged come about for economic reasons? I think so, and I think there was not a real need. Leaders like Pericles and Alcibiades and the others seemed not to consider the fact that acquiring more land to control more areas for the sake of their economy would lead to the disaster that came. War is often a game which, if not played wisely, can lead to the downfall of an entire civilization.



Just to set something straight, my grandson who recently graduated from high school had far more homework than I ever did from the time he was in the first grade. More was required of him than ever was required of kids in my generation because of national, standardized tests which must be passed. In his school there was plenty of discipline, and I think what was in that school is fairly typical of this country.



I think we elders sometimes start thinking of the "Good Old Days" of the past, which in memory take on an unreal and impossible golden aura. Let me tell you that there weren't any Good Old Days, that people in the West and some Near East and Eastern countries are better off today than they ever were before. If you want to live in the past, move to a country like Afghanistan.

Mal

HubertPaul
June 23, 2003 - 09:26 am
What brings an empire down? Let’s sum up what was said above:

Does the downfall begin with too much lust for power, greed, haughtiness, pride..........?

It is probable that a better answer is that a population lost its common values and therefore, also lost the foundation upon which a civilization is constructed.

I think the ingredient in humans that causes their downfall at the peak is arrogance.

Do we see any of it today?

Then Robby says:." The rich of the world uniting against the poor of the world -- ignoring national borders?”

Percivel adds:”Was it arrogance or simply a loss of common understanding and compassion, not only for the citizens of Athens; but for the world in general?

Mal, you are right, it is frightening!

HubertPaul
June 23, 2003 - 09:58 am
Do we learn anything from the past?

Will the “half-ape”, half human being which passes today for real “man” one day give place to the real thing ?

tooki
June 23, 2003 - 10:11 am
It seems to me that civilizations, empires, and nations aren't "brought down." They are born, live a while, and die for various reasons: economic, geopgraphic, arrogance, the vanity of empire, and so forth; there is no single cause. Their fate is inextricability bound with the humans who (which?) compose them. They absorb and interact synergistically. That is, a civilization operates by synergy based on the characteristics of its powerful people, and it acts accordingly. When lead by, for example, George Washington,Abraham Lincoln and either Teddy or FDR, America behaved better, in my view, than when lead by some other folks, whose names I won't mention for fear of being too political.

And it isn't frightening, it's fascinating to be around to observe the changes, both good and bad. Remember, Cher says that when its finally over there will be her and the cockroachs.

I'm with Eloise. "Those at the bottom don't care what happens to those on top," or words to that effect. Why would they?

Malryn (Mal)
June 23, 2003 - 10:21 am

The ones on the bottom had better start caring or they'll lose a lot more than the house they live in, their freedom and their shirt. Survival instincts, if nothing else, should tell them that.

Mal

Percivel
June 23, 2003 - 11:02 am
>"Those at the bottom of the heap do not care much what happens to those on top."<<


I don't think it is a matter of caring. When one is forcused on food, clothing and shelter for one's self and one's family, the awareness of the needs of others is minimized.

Percivel
June 23, 2003 - 11:05 am
> I think there's a difference. We are finally beginning to accept the fact that some people are born to be homosexual and there is nothing they can do to change this, so we are trying to accept this behavior as normal for these particular individuals<<


Who is the WE? I don't see it as a "fact" as yet. Do you have some scientific proof that people are born to be homosexual?

tooki
June 23, 2003 - 11:38 am
lead to erronous conclusions. (Aristotle, Book IX, p.20) I assumed that those on the bottom wouldn't care what happened to those on top because they, now, were on top! I assumed a coup d'etat. Those on the bottom overthrew those on top and were now the ones on top. This, of course, need not be the case. Nevertheless, I cling to the view that benevolence begins at home, and fie upon the rich, famous, and powerful, whoever they may be.

tooki
June 23, 2003 - 11:44 am
Here's the we of Shasta's statemennt: Lots of "wes" here. Take your pick.

This is WE

Shasta Sills
June 23, 2003 - 03:01 pm
I agree with Tooki (189). Civilizations run in cycles, like most things in the world. They develop to their highest peak, and then they decay. It doesn't mean we shouldn't try to learn from history. But I doubt if any civilization will endure indefinitely. As individuals, we live and we die. Nations do the same. They rise and they fall. Still, it's interesting to try to figure out how each one ascended and descended.

Malryn (Mal)
June 23, 2003 - 03:20 pm

With all the reading and discussing we've done since we began this study of The Story of Civilization November 1, 2001 what you're saying, Shasta, comes as no surprise. What is more than troubling is the uncanny resemblance of the decline and ultimate collapse of Greece to what is happening to our own civilization right now.

What do we do? Stand around and watch it happen? What happens after that?

Are you brushing up on your Mandarin accent? Or what?

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
June 23, 2003 - 05:37 pm
Durant continues:--

"The Athenians offered freedom to those slaves, and citizenship to those aliens, who would fight for the city. The new armada defeated a Spartan fleet off the Arginusae Islands (south of Lesbos) in 406, and Athens again thrilled with the news of victory.

"But the Assembly was furious when it learned that its generals had allowed the crews of twenty-five ships, sunk by the enemy, to drown in a storm. Hotheads protested that these souls, for lack of proper burial, would wander restlessly about the universe. Accusing the survivors of negligence in not attempting a rescue, they proposed that the eight victorious generals (including the son of Pericles by Aspasia) should be put to death.

"Socrates, who happened to be member of the presiding prytany for the day, refused to put the motion to a vote. It was presented and passed over his protests, and the sentence ws carried out with the same precipitation with which it had been decreed. A few days later the Assembly repented, and condemned to death those who had persuaded it to executite the tenerals.

Meanwhile the Spartans, weakened by the defeat, offered peace again, but the Assembly, moved by the oratory of the drunken Cleophon, refused."

It seems to me that this "democracy" is very quick to apply capital punishment -- then repent and condemn to death those who had condemned others to death -- then forgive -- then accuse -- . I get a picture of an Assembly out of control with no steady hands at the wheel -- except perhaps someone like Socrates who is quickly overruled.

I also detect decisions made based on a remnant of religious beliefs.

Robby

Justin
June 23, 2003 - 08:21 pm
Percivel; What is it the Greeks did not understand in common that led to the decline? Broad-brush language doesn't tell us very much about the cause or causes of the Greek demise. How does compassion or lack of it affect the outcome?

The Greek assembly was initially composed of 700 citizens. That assembly was succeeded by one of 5000 citizens. Both assemblies were erratic in response to problems brought to them for resolution. I wonder how much of their erratic behavior was caused by the size of the assembly, by the rules of the assembly, and/or by the lack of mechanical devices for amplifying the voice.

Percivel
June 23, 2003 - 10:13 pm
>What is it the Greeks did not understand in common that led to the decline?<<


It appears to me that words alone were the problem. There seemed to be inconsistency in the application of public laws and certainly inconsistency in application of existing moral behavior.

robert b. iadeluca
June 24, 2003 - 03:43 am
"Led now by second-rate men, the Athenian fleet sailed north to meet the Spartans under Lysander in the Sea of Marmora. Frm his hiding place in the hills Alcibiades saw that the Athenian ships had taken up a strategically perilous position at Aegospotami, near Lampsacus. He risked his life to ride down to the shore and advise the Athenian admirals to seek a more sheltered place, but they distrusted his counsel, and reminded him that he was no longer in command.

"On the next day the decisive battle was fought. All but eight of the 208 Athenian ships were scuttled or taken, and Lysander ordered the execution of three thousand Athenian captives. Learning that Lysander had issued orders for his assassination, Alcibiades sought refuge in Phrygia with the Persian general Pharnabazus, who assigned him a castle and a courtesan. But the Persian King, persuaded by Lysander, ordered Pharnabazus to kill his guest. Two assassins besieged Alcibiades in his castle, and set fire to it. He came out naked and desperate, seeking the privilege of fighting for his life. But before his sword could touch his assailants he was pierced by their arrows and javelins. He died at the age of forty-six, the greatest genius and most tragic failure in the military history of Greece.

"Lysander, now absolute master of the Aegean, sailed down from city to city, overthrowing the democracies and setting up oligarchic governments subject to Sparta. Entering the Piraeus unresisted, he proceeded to blockade Athens. The Athenians resisted with their accustomed bravery, but within three months their stock of food was exhausted, and the streets were full of dead or dying men.

"Lysander gave Athens bitter and yet lenient terms. He would not, he said, destroy a city that had in time past performed such honorable services for Greece, nor would he enslave its population. But he demanded the leveling of the Long Walls, the recall of the oligarchic exiles, the surrender of all but eight of the surviving Athenian ships, and a pledge to support Sparta actively in any further war.

"Athens protested, and yielded."

Any comments as we watch a dying Athens?

Robby

tooki
June 24, 2003 - 06:15 am
what were your fatal flaws?

All along the Durants have discussed and emphasized the extreme love for their cities that the Athenians had. Other citizens of the many Greek cities also had a great love for their cities, but the Athenians seemed always violently patriotic.

Did this love and loyalty arise over many centuries because of the way Greece was formed? The successive waves of immigatation, the Ionians, the Dorians, the Sea-Peoples, the Pegs-something or another, led to the formation of clans. These clans evolved into the city-states. Because of the early, traditional, and historical centeredness of life in these clans, was it transferred to the city-state? Was this some reason for the irrational city love that kept the Greek cities from ever forming lasting alliances. And kept then at constant, if not war, bickering with each other? There were other factors at work, certainly, but the Athenian snobbiness, hubris, and arrogance seem to have been instrumental in its death.

And, does any of the above ring a bell (or at least ring your chimes)?

Percivel
June 24, 2003 - 07:04 am
>There were other factors at work, certainly, but the Athenian snobbiness, hubris, and arrogance seem to have been instrumental in its death.<<


You can bet that it played a role along with the inability to sucessufully indoctrinate those foreign elements conquered.

Malryn (Mal)
June 24, 2003 - 07:31 am

Percivel, by "indoctrinate", do you mean a conquering nation or city-state should demand that those who have been conquered should abolish their own culture and religious beliefs and take on the culture and beliefs of the conqueror?

Tooki, if this democratic republic we call the United States did not have a strong central government, do you think we might have the same kind of conflict among our states that existed among the various city-states in Ancient Greece? Do you think that if the city-states had been required to answer to laws created by a strong central government what occurred in Greece would have happened the way it did?

Mal

Percivel
June 24, 2003 - 07:52 am
Mal sez:

>Percivel, by "indoctrinate", do you mean a conquering nation or city-state should demand that those who have been conquered should abolish their own culture and religious beliefs and take on the culture and beliefs of the conqueror?<<


Hmmm! You added an element to a pie that I did not bake. "Should" implies a set of moral standards. Whose? Those of the conquering nation or those of the conquered?

Nations rise and fall based on that nation's ability to effectively encourage its population to go along with the morals and traditions of the dominate culture. Forcing that to happen is nie to impossible. Encouraging that to happen, is common sense.

tooki
June 24, 2003 - 08:41 am
Mal, I agree with both sides of the coin you present. Without a strong central government the States would bicker endlessly. As it is they bicker about water rights, gambling, sales tax vs income tax, our State is the best! And then the issue of "State's Rights" hovers over all.

And, if the Greek City-States had been required to answer to laws created by a strong, central government, Greece then would have had BOTH Athen's strong Navy and Sparta's strong Army. I think it might have stood a chance in the face of the spread of Rome. This is anticipation of the Durants' next book, but it seems to be that Rome made "protecterates" (sic!) of those entities it thought wisest to not attempt to subdue.

The might-have-been theories of History are really fun, aren't they.

Malryn (Mal)
June 24, 2003 - 10:04 am

Not when they're as applicable to our own time as this one is.

Mal

Shasta Sills
June 24, 2003 - 11:30 am
Mal, I'm not going to worry about speaking Mandarin because I think the U.S. will outlast me. Why? Do you think the Chinese will be the next super power? I don't worry so much about comparing our U.S. problems to those of the Greeks. We think our own problems are so terrible because they are the ones we are most familiar with. If we lived in another country, we would think their problems are just as bad, or worse.

Percivel
June 24, 2003 - 12:20 pm
> Do you think the Chinese will be the next super power?<<


I doubt that it will be the Chinese. They are much like the old Soviet Union. Take away that dominant central government and you have at least six different cultures striving to be dominant.

The result would be a splitting up of China with Tibet leading the way.

robert b. iadeluca
June 24, 2003 - 06:20 pm
You folks are doing some deep pondering and speculating. That's what makes this discussion group as wonderful as it is.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
June 24, 2003 - 06:30 pm
"Supported by Lysander, and led by Critias and Theramenes, the returning oligarchs seized the government, and established a Council of Thirty to rule Athens (404). These Greek Bourbons had learned nothing. They confiscated the property and alienated the support of many rich merchants. They plundered the temples -- sold for three talents the wharves of the Piraeus which had cost a thousand -- exiled five thousand democrats -- and put fifteen hundred others to death.

"They assassinated all Athenians who were distasteful to them politically or personally. They put an end to freedom of teaching, assemblage, and speech, and Critias himself, once his pupil, forbade Socrates to continue his public discourses. Seeking to compromise the philosopher to their cause, the Thirty ordered him and four others to arrest the democrat Leon.

"The others obeyed, but Socrates refused."

Exiled some democrats and murdered others -- assassinated those of different political views -- ended free assemblage and free speech -- curbed the freedom to teach as one wished (even Socrates' pupil turned against him) --

The structure of democracy is crashing down -- except for the bravery of those like Socrates.

Robby

Justin
June 24, 2003 - 06:54 pm
The Greek City States were not bound to one another in the same way the American States are bound. There was no central government run by delegates from each City State. The Greek States were a loose confederation with a single dominant state forcefully controling their actions. If all the City States had been required to focus on an outside enemy, instead of on each other and on Athens, the confederation would have been stronger. That was not the case, however, and so the City States tried to out do one another and to overcome the dominance of Athenian power.

Athens was not interested in the welfare of Sparta, or Corinth, or Melos, or the Cyclades. Athens was concerned only with the welfare of Athenians. When the Syracusans appealed to Athens for aid they were denied. When a City State became a little unruly the rebels were butchered in abundance. These are the actions of an arrogant people obsessed by power.

We usually see these domination characteristics in a dictator. In this case, they appear in an assembly- an assembly on a roll toward more and more power.It is a big clumsy assembly of 700 and then one of 5000. It is organized mob rule led by an effective speaker. The hand at the tiller is never constant. This is an extreme form of democracy we are examining.

robert b. iadeluca
June 25, 2003 - 03:17 am
"The number of men, even of substantial means, who began to seek an end to this bloody tyranny grew from day to day. When a thousand armed democrats under Thrasybulus approached the Piraeus, the Thirty found that hardly any but their immediate partisans could be persuaded to fight for them. Critias organized a small army, went out to battle, and was defeated and killed. Thrasybulus entered Athens, and restored the democracy (403).

"Under his guidance the Assembly behaved with unwonted modeeration. It decreed death for only the highest surviving leaders of the revolution, and allowed them to escape this sentence by exile. It declared a general amnesty to all others who had supported the oligarchs. It even repaid to Sparta the hundred talents that the ephors had lent to the Thirty.

"These acts of humanity and statesmanship gave to Athens at last the peace that she had not known for a generation."

Robby

tooki
June 25, 2003 - 05:48 am
See Errol Flynn as Alcibiades, hero and rogue of Athens, in "The Sea Hawk." Music by Erich Korngold and screen play by Thucydides. More dramatic than Euripides, more thrilling than Herodotus. See bold, handsome, adventurous Alcibiades sail the Medeterrian at the prow of his long and lofty trireme, charming in his cute, little Greek warrior skirt. See the expedition to Syracuse, and thrill to Alcibiades' romantic interlude in Sparta. Weep at the horrors that follow the defeat of Nicias. Gag at the patrician scorn and moral turpitude of Alcibiades. A picture for the ages!

Malryn (Mal)
June 25, 2003 - 06:07 am

You have a wonderful imagination, Tooki.

Justin, thank you for your Post #211. You've made the conditions in Greece so clear. It's not the collapse of the government in this country that I fear; it's war without reason and diminution of freedoms that bother me. Something happened just this week that I find disturbing. Little by little the benefits and freedoms of democracy that some of us have worked so hard to attain have become eroded to the point of collapse. That's what bothers me.

Mal

Percivel
June 25, 2003 - 06:45 am
>The structure of democracy is crashing down -- except for the bravery of those like Socrates.<<


Ahtens was not a democracy. It was a republic, and like the good ole US of A; had pokets of people who had neither vorce nor power. Enlightened leadership held sway for a while, but even there we found conflict.

HubertPaul
June 25, 2003 - 09:35 am
Percivel, why can a Republic not be a Democracy? Please explain.

Percivel
June 25, 2003 - 12:28 pm
Paul sez:

>Percivel, why can a Republic not be a Democracy? Please explain.<<


Technically, true democracy: "a democracy in which the power is exercised directly by the people rather than through representatives."

By design, a republic creates an elite who rule. Therefore, a republic, by definition, can't be a "democracy."

robert b. iadeluca
June 25, 2003 - 12:44 pm
According to THIS DETAILED DEFINITION there can be a democracy in the form of a republic.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
June 25, 2003 - 01:13 pm
"Strange to say, the only cruelty of the restored democracy was committed upon an old philosopher whose seventy years should have put him beyond the possibility of being a danger to the state. But among the leaders of the victorious faction was the same Anytus who years before had threatened to revenge himself upon Socrates for dialectical slights and the 'corruption' of his son. Anyrus was a good man. He had fought bravely under Thrasbybulus, had saved the lives of oligarchs who had been taken captive by his soldiers, had been instrumental in arranging the amnesty, and had left in undisturbed enjoyment of his property those to whom it had been sold after confiscation by the Thirty.

"But he could not forget that when he had gone into exile his son had stayed in Athens with Socrates, and had become a drunkard. It did not appease Anytus to observe that Socrates had refused to obey the Thirty, and (if we may take Xenophon's word for it) had denounced Critias as a bad ruler.

"To Anytus it seemed that Socrates, more than any Sophist, was an evil influence both on morals and on politics. He was undermining the religious faith that had supported morality, and his persistent criticism was weakening the belief of educated Athenians in the institutions of democracy. The murderous tyrant Critias had been one of Socrates'pupils. The immoral and treasonable Alcibiades had been his lover. Charmides, his early favorite, had been a general under Critias, and had just died in battle against the democracy.

"It seemed fitting to Anytus that Socrates should leave Athens, or die."

Robby

georgehd
June 25, 2003 - 01:22 pm
The link provided by Robby in post 218 is most informative. Though the US is considered to be a democracy, we certainly cannot say that every one has an equal say in governance. The Senate, with every state having two senators, gives equal weight to every state dispite wide variation in population.

In addition, money has a great influence on the political agenda of the US as we can see with the present administration.

Getting back to Greece, I had no idea how much warfare was going on in ancient Greece. My immediate thought was that male dominated societies tend to go to war to solve problems. Unfortunately I cannot think of any female dominated society.

Justin
June 25, 2003 - 02:04 pm
A democracy is a government in which the people rule. A republic is a government in which the supremacy of the people or their elected representatives is acknowledged. The US is a democratic republic. Greece was a democratic republic. It was not a representative government, however, at the level of the assembly. All citizen voters took part in the assembly. There were 43,000 citizens in Athens, not all of whom attended each session. There were times when a committee of 5000 made recomendations but decisions were made by the Assembly. That was one of the problems.

Justin
June 25, 2003 - 02:11 pm
The US is a bicameral system. There are two bodies. The House of Representatives is formed from members who represent a specific number of people. The Senate is formed from members who initially were appointed by state legislators but now are elected by the people of each state. Their deliberations result in independent bills which must then be consolidated.

robert b. iadeluca
June 25, 2003 - 02:21 pm
Some participants here will remember the months we spent going over in detail de Tocqueville's "Democracy in America." Click HERE to read some comments by him and also by Abraham Lincoln on the topics of citizenship and democracy.

Robby

moxiect
June 25, 2003 - 05:20 pm
I am still here, learning and learning and enjoying!

Percivel
June 25, 2003 - 05:56 pm
Your definition sez:

>In general terms, a democracy is a form of government in which the people have the right to control their own destiny. In a democracy the people have the final authority, they have the right to make or at least influence decisions that affect their everyday lives<<


What people? Some "republics" only gave the right to control their own destiny to citizens and in the process not only denied that power to children but also to people of differennt races even if they were born wihtin the political boundaries of said state.

Since the USA denies some people the right to influence public decisions, the USA is not a democrtic republic.

robert b. iadeluca
June 25, 2003 - 06:13 pm
"The indictment of Socrates was brought forward by Anytus, Meletus, and Lycon in 399, and read as follows:

"Socrates is a public offender in that he does not recognize the gods that the state recognizes, but introduces new demonical beings. (the Socratic daimonion). He has also offended by corrupting the youth.'

"The trial was held before a popular court or dikasterion, of some five hundred citizens, mostly of the less educated class. We have no means of knowing how accurately Plato and Xenophon have reported Socrates' defense. We do know that Plato was present at the trial, and that his account of Socrates' 'apology' agrees in many points with Xenophon's.

"Socrates, says Plato, insisted that he believed in the state gods, even in the divinity of the sun and moon.

'You say first that I do not belive in gods, and then again that I believe in demigods...You might as well affirm the existence of mules, and deny that of horses and asses.'

And then he referred sadly to the effects of Aristophanes' satire:

"I have had many accusers, who accused me of old, and their false charges have continued during many years. And I am more afraid of them than of Anytus and his associates. For they began when you were children, and took possession of your minds with their falsehoods, telling of one Socrates, a wise man, who speculated about the heavens above, and searched into the earth beneath and made the worse appear the better cause
"These are the accusers I dread. For they are the circulators of this rumor, and their hearers are too apt to fancy that speculators of this sort do not believe in the gods. And they are many, and their charges against me are of ancient date, and they made them in days when you were impressionable -- in childhood, or perhaps in youth -- and the cause when heard went by default, for there was none to answer. And hardest of all, their names I do not know and cannot tell, unless in the chance case of a comic poet. That is the nature of the accusation and that is what you have seen yourselves in the comedy of Aristophanes.'"

Comments please?

Robby

Justin
June 25, 2003 - 06:25 pm
Greece gave the ballot to all citizens. That makes it the first democracy. It was not perfect because the definition of citizens was a little restricted. But it was a beginning.

The US excludes those under 18 as well as felons and non citizens from the ballot. We must include crooks, immigrants and children to have a democracy? Nonsense. We have a democratic, constitutional, republic in the US.

tooki
June 25, 2003 - 06:32 pm
It is my understanding that this forum is about Greece. I object to discussions about American politics. Certainly there are other forums for that. Robby, is this discussion going to continue to center around American politics? If so I'll take another sabbatical. It also seems to me that some participants have axes to grind, views to advance, and grivances that they seem to assume this forum will assuage. The worse thing is that the nit picking is really boring. If I have spoken too strongly, I am willing to be rebuked. So be it.

robert b. iadeluca
June 25, 2003 - 06:35 pm
Here is a link to a SUMMARY of the teachings of Socrates and the last days of his life when he was charged with corrupting the youth of Athens by "insistently questioning their unwarrnted confidence in the truth of popular opinions."

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
June 25, 2003 - 06:40 pm
Speaking of Tockqueville in Democracy in America which we discussed in depth, I thought it fitting to include this excerpt that fits in L of G as well as in the Religion discussion. Page 419 in my French version.

"Never, in the short time of some sixty odd years, will contain all of the imagination of man; the incomplete joys of this world will never suffice his heart. Alone among all beings, man manifests a natural disgust for existence and an immense desire to exist: he scorns life and fears void. These different instincts ceaselessly press his soul towards the contemplation of another world, and it is religion that leads him there.

Religion is then only a particular form of hope, and it is as natural to human’s heart as hope itself. It is through an aberration of intelligence, and with the help of a sort of moral violent exercise on its own human nature that man distances himself from religious beliefs; an invincible slope brings him back. Incredulity is an accident; faith alone is a permanent state of humanity.

In considering religions from a purely human standpoint, we can then say that all religions draw from man himself an element of force that would never fail him because it is part of the principle component of human nature.


Just as man will always make war, he will always have religion it seems.

Eloïse

robert b. iadeluca
June 25, 2003 - 06:41 pm
Tooki:--There is a fine dividing line there. As DL, I have constantly asked that the names of political individuals or parties not be mentioned and that individual views regarding current political actions not be given.

On the other hand, it is perfectly appropriate (in my opinion) as we examine the fount of democracy 2,500 years ago to compare as best we can the workings of the democracy we formed in the 18th century and the democracy formed 500 years BCE.

However, your point is well taken and we will all watch ourselves carefully so that this does not become a political forum.

Robby

Justin
June 25, 2003 - 06:44 pm
When the best of us are executed in the name of God, superstition has reached a pinacle of evil. Socrates was only the first to die for that reason. Thomas More was another. Savonarola was another.

When an advance in knowledge is denied in the name of God, superstition has caused more evil. Galileo is a good example.

When superstition is allowed to influence public policy, the result is, in many cases, evil.

robert b. iadeluca
June 25, 2003 - 06:48 pm
Inasmuch as Socrates was charged with "not recognizing the gods that the state recognizes," it is also appropriate (again in my opinion) that we examine here the effect of religion, per se (not a specific dogma), or lack thereof, on a state.

Those of us who have participated in The Story of Civilization since we began with Sumeria know that it was impossible to examine a single civilization without seeing the intermingling of religion in each case with the culture.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
June 25, 2003 - 06:50 pm
Justin has given his view which he is entitled to give. He has not asked or urged that any of us agree with him.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
June 25, 2003 - 07:04 pm
"Socrates lays claim to a divine mission to teach the good and simple life, and no threat will deter him.

'Strange, indeed, would be my conduct, o men of Athens, if I who, when I was ordered by the generals whom you chose to command me at Potidaea and Amphipolis and Delium, remained where they place me, like any other man, facing death -- if, I say, now when, as I conceive and imagine, God orders me to fulfil the philosopher's mission of searching into myself and other men, I were to desert my post through fear of death...'
'If you say to me -- Socrates, this time we will let you off, but upon one condition, that you are not to inquire and speculate in this way any more, I should reply:
'Men of Athens, I honor and love you. But I shall obey God rather than you, and while I have life and strength I shall never cease from the practice and teaching of philosophy, exhorting anyone whom I meet, after my manner, and convincing him, saying:
'O my friend, why do you, who are a citizen of the great and mighty and wise city of Athens, care so much about laying up the greatest amount of money and honor and reputation, and so little about wisdom and truth?
'Wherefore, O men of Athens, I say to you, do as Anytus bids, and either acquit me or not. But whatever you do, know that I shall never alter my ways, not even if I have to die many times.'"

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
June 25, 2003 - 07:19 pm

And that was Tocqueville's opinion. (Post #230)



I think it is a pathetic shame that such an elegant civilization died. Never before or since has there been such cultivation and nurturing of art, science, music and literature, one discipline leading into another and all intertwining. For the first time human beings used logic and reason unhampered by mysticism and fantasy to seek truth. From philosophers like Socrates came the kind of questioning that tears down barriers of superstition which have held other civilizations back by centuries. People learned to use their minds logically. They learned to think.

Mal

tooki
June 25, 2003 - 07:51 pm
If I understand what Socrates said, that he will "obey God...and never cease from the practice and teaching of philosophy...," then how can Justin say he was "executed in the name of God." What am I missing here?

I have recently learned that the crystal capital of the world in is Sonona, Arizona. All the crystals that are embued with heavenly qualities apparently are somehow centered in Sonona. Which makes me think that Eloise's sentiment should read, "Just as man will alway make war, he will always (not "have")MAKE relgion."

georgehd
June 25, 2003 - 08:09 pm
Those who are interested in the topic of religion and evil should refer to the discussion on that topic.

georgehd
June 25, 2003 - 08:16 pm
In the link to Socrates - he said "no human agent ever does evil". I wonder what the group thinks of that statement. He believed that evil arises out of ignorance.

tooki
June 25, 2003 - 08:54 pm
He didn't say, "No human agent ever does evil." He said,"...no human agent ever knowingly does evil." And besides, it wasn't a quote by him. It's only something the writer of the article thought he might have said. Anyway, the context is, "...knowledge and virtue are so clearly related that no human agent ever knowingly does evil."

That sentence means nothing to me because I see no reason to connect knowedge and virtue. That's way too general, the sort of statement whose very vagueness traps innocents into thinking it's profound. However, Socrates never was a rigorous thinker. Give me Aristotle any day.

Justin
June 25, 2003 - 09:53 pm
Tooki: Socrates was executed because he corrupted the youth and because he did not believe in the state gods. He preferred to continue his critical inquiry rather than accept the gods as an explanation for events. Plato said, he said in his own defense that he would believe that the sun was divine but he would not stop questioning the reasonableness of that condition. In corrupting the youth, it was said, he convinced the young to inquire into the truth, to challenge the divinity of the sun.

George: In every civilization we have touched upon, religion has played a part in the formation of the culture. It is one of Durant's selected influences in the formation of a civilization. Therefore religion not only belongs in this discussion, the discussion would be incomplete without it.

robert b. iadeluca
June 26, 2003 - 03:16 am
"The judges appear to have interrupted him, and to have bidden him desist from what seemed to them insolence. But he continued in even haughtier vein:--

'I would have you know that if you kill such a one as I am, you will injure yourselves more than you will injure me. For if you kill me you will not easily find another like me who, if I may use such a ludicrous figure of speech, am a sort of gadfly, given to the state by the God. And the state is like a great and noble steed who is tardy in his motions owing to his very size, and requires to be stirred into life. And as you will not easily find another like me, I would advise you to spare me.'

"The sentence of guilty was pronounced upon him by the small majority of sixty. Had his defense been more concilitary it is likely that he would have been acquitted. He had the privilege of proposing an alternative penalty in place of death. At first he refused to make even this concession. But on the appeal of Plato and other friends, who underwrote his pledge, he offered to pay a fine of thirty minas ($3000). The second polling of the jury condemned him by eighty more votes than the first."

Apparently his greatest "guilt" was standing up for what he believed, even to the point of death. Was he perhaps correct in saying: "You will not easily find another like me?"

Robby

georgehd
June 26, 2003 - 07:33 am
Justin, my post about the Religion and Evil discussion was just an informational one; I agree that religion is very much a part of this discussion also. Have those of you who have been part of this discussion from its beginning seen religion as a positive force in the development of civilization. I ask because I am beginning to question the role of religion as I participate in the other discussion.

tooki
June 26, 2003 - 08:17 am
But, Justin, you say that among the reasons he was executed was,"... because he did not believe in the state god."

However, he says, "God orders me to to fulfil the philosopher's mission...." And, in another place, as noted by Robby above (and is famous whenever or wherever Socrates is studied), "I am a sort of gadfly, given to the State by God...." Are you differentiating between "the state god" and Socrate's God?

Alas, we'll never be sure what he said because we only know what the philosopher gossips said he said, especially the gossip Plato. And, no, I am not Platonic. I think Plato's thinking to be vague, cloudy, and immersed in water.

Malryn (Mal)
June 26, 2003 - 09:10 am

The god of Socrates was the life-giving power of the sun. It was not what the anthropomorphic deity many people think of today when they say the word, "God".

Mal

HubertPaul
June 26, 2003 - 11:04 am
Socrates' interest was in man and man's problem. Man, for Socrates, is the center, the pivot, of all that is worth thinking about.

To trouble one's brain about matters, such as how the 'cosmos' came into being, or by what forces the celestial phenomena arise, was, he argued, to play the fool.

Justin
June 26, 2003 - 04:28 pm
Socrates was executed because he challenged the existance of the local gods and would not cease to question their validity. He tried to defend himself by saying, "I believe" but I will not stop inquiring critically. His superstitious judges executed him for not believing as they believed. An interesting comparison might be made here with Jesus Christ who was also tried for not believing as the people believed.

Justin
June 26, 2003 - 04:45 pm
George: In most civilizations we have encountered in this discussion, religion has been useful to the ruling powers as a means of people control. It has also been beneficial to the priests who found a lucrative livlihood. I suppose one could argue that the people were also better off with religion because it served as a form of crowd control. It also reduced some of the fears of the people because it provided explanations for exciting natural events of unknown cause. It did not stop people from killing one another or stealing from each other. It did, slow down, greatly, the advance of knowledge in the world and unfortunately, it continues to have that effect.

robert b. iadeluca
June 26, 2003 - 05:27 pm
"It still remained open to Socrates to escape from the prison. Crito and other friends (if we may follow Plato) prepared the way with bribery, and probably Anytus had hoped for such a compromise. But Socrates remained himself to the last.

"He felt that he had but a few more years to live, and that 'he relinquished only the most burdensome part of life, in which all feel their powers of intellect diminished." Instead of accepting Crito's proposal, he examined it from an ethical point of view, discussed it dialectically, and played the game of logic to the end. His disciples visited him daily in his cell during the month between his trial and his execution, and he seems to have discoursed with them calmly until the final hour.

"Plato pictures him as fondling the hair and head of the young Phaedo, and saying, 'Tomorrow, Phaedo, I suppose that these fair locks will be cut' in mourning. Xanthippe came in tears, with their youngest child in her arms. He comforted her, and asked Crito to have her escorted home.

"'You die undeservedly,' said an ardent disciple. 'Would you then,' Socrates answered, 'have me deserve death?'

"After he was gone, says Diodorus, the Athenians regretted their treatment of him, and put his accusers to death. Suidas makes Meletus die by public stoning. Plutarch varies the tale. The accusers became so unpopular that no citizen would light their fires, or answer their questions, or bathe in the same water with them. So that they were at last driven in despair to hang themselves. Diogenes Laertius reports that Meletus was executed, Anytus exiled, and a bronze statue put up by Athens in memory of the philosopher.

"We do not know if these stories are true."

So again the citizens of this democracy make a legal decision and follow it up by punishing those who made the decision.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
June 27, 2003 - 03:11 am
"The Golden Age ended with the death of Socrates."

"Athens was exhausted in body and soul. Only the degradation of character by prolonged war and desperate suffering could explain the ruthless treatment of Melos, the bitter sentence upon Mytilene, the execution of the Arginusae generals, and the sacrifice of Socrates on the altar of a dying faith.

"All the foundations of Athenian life were disordered. The soil of Attica had been devastated by the Spartan raids, and the slow-growing olive trees had been burned to the ground. The Athenian navy had been destroyed, and control of trade and the food supply had been lost. The state treasury was empty, and private fortunes had been taxed almost to extinction. Two thirds of the citizen body had been killed.

"The damage done to Greece by the Persian invasions could not compare with the destruction of Greek life and property by the Peloponnesian War. After Salamis and Plataea Greece was left poor, but exalted with courage and pride. Now Greece was poor again, and Athens had suffered a wound to her spirit which seemed too deep to be healed.

"Two things sustained her -- the restoration of democracy under men of judgment and moderation, and the consciousness that during the last sixty years, even during the War, she had produced such art and literature as surpassed the like product of any other age in the memory of man.

"Anaxagoras had been exiled and Socrates had been put to death, but the stimulus that they had given to philosophy sufficed to make Athens henceforth, and despite herself, the center and summit of Greek thought. What before had been formless tentatives of speculation were now to mature into great systems that would agitate Europe for centuries to come. The haphazard provision of higher education by wandering Sophists was to be replaced by the first universities in history -- universities that would make Athens, as Thucydides had prematurely called her, 'the school of Hellas.' Through the bloodshed and turmoil of conflict the traditions of art had not quite decayed. For many centuries yet the sculptors and architects of Greece were to carve and build for all the Mediterranean world.

"Out of the despair of her defeat Athens lifted herself with startling virility to new wealth, culture, and power. The autumn of her life was bountiful."

Your comments, please?

Robby

tooki
June 27, 2003 - 08:47 am
"God" has many uses. Among these uses, perhaps a primarary one, is as an excuse for powerful men to silence their enemies, their enemies being those with whom they disagree.

The record of the scapegoating of God begins with the Bible, the first real (or if you prefer, the first unreal) history of the world, predating Thucydides. It is full of very important men, continually forcing their wills upon their peoples by alluding to God for support.

Moving on, we have: Socrates: Pagan: forced to suicide unless he relinquished his beliefs. Spinoza: Jew: expelled from the Jewish community for refusing to relinquish his views. Thomas More: Church of England: beheaded by Henry VIII for refusing to recognize Henry as Head of the Church of England. Savonarola: Catholic: burned in France for his denunciations of abuses of The Church.

However, I believe an equally cogent argument might be made that the evil men do in God's name is theirs alone. They do, indeed, make a scapegoat of God.

And, as for Greece's continued vitality, wasn't it about now that the Bible was translated into Greek because that was the language that would best spread the words of the bible?

Malryn (Mal)
June 27, 2003 - 09:11 am

You can only use a deity as a scapegoat if you believe in one, or think what you say will influence people who do. If the God we think of today is a spirit and not God-in-the-shape-mind-and-emotions-of-a-man, how can it make any difference if it's made into a scapegoat or not?

Mal

Justin
June 27, 2003 - 01:56 pm
Tooki: There is a great tendency to separate the deeds of men from one's concept of God. The idea of God is man's concept and in that sense God is not an independent being. I do like your list of victims. They were free thinkers, in the main, who paid for their brash objection to the abuses of the religious

The Bible was translated into Greek, not because it is a language that would best spread the word but because there were many Jews in the area of Alexandria who could not read Hebrew. The Greek result is called the Septuagint because it was translated by seventy Alexandrian scholars. The Septuagint is available on Borders shelves. The translation occurred at a later time than the death of Socrates.

Justin
June 27, 2003 - 02:41 pm
It occurs to me that the direct form of democracy we find here in Greece could not be adopted in the US or in any large modern democratic state because of the difficulty in getting all the voting people to come together to deliberate and vote. The indirect form, is obviously, the most convenient ie; by electing representatives to act for the voting populi. However, in several States, referendums are conducted to select preferred alternatives to given questions. That is a regressive move toward the direct democracy of the Greeks.

robert b. iadeluca
June 27, 2003 - 02:57 pm
For nine months now (since Sept. 17, 2002) we have been examining this fascinating civilization. We have watched its "ups and downs" and now sadly prepare for --

The Decline and Fall of Greek Freedom

399-322 B.C.

We begin with --

Philip

robert b. iadeluca
June 27, 2003 - 03:05 pm
The GREEN quotes in the Heading show us the direction in which we are going.

"Sparta offered to history another tragedy of success brought low by pride. Instead of the freedom which she had promised to the cities once subject to Athens, she levied upon them an annual tribute of a thousand talents ($6,000,000), and established in each of them an aristocratic rule controlled by a Lacedaemonian harmost, or governor, and supported by a Spartan garrison. These governments, responsible only to the distant ephors, practiced such corruption and tyranny that soon the new empire was hated more intensely than the old.

More of the same?

Robby

Justin
June 27, 2003 - 03:52 pm
Same old Same Old.

robert b. iadeluca
June 27, 2003 - 04:16 pm
So shall we move on to Rome -- or is that more of the same? In which case shall we move onto Louis IV -- more of the same? Perhaps on to Napoleon -- more? Maybe medieval England? Shall we move right on to today?

How about the future?

Robby

Justin
June 27, 2003 - 05:49 pm
Same old, Same old.

Justin
June 27, 2003 - 05:54 pm
I wonder how the Durants were able to do it. They must have seen the repetitive character of these civilizations as they came and went. I am looking forward to advancing to Rome but I don't want to do it before reviewing the efforts of the Persians and the travels of Alexander. If Alex had not split up the world among his generals we might have been closer to Wilkie's one world concept. Oh Well!

robert b. iadeluca
June 27, 2003 - 05:59 pm
Tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow Creeps about this petty pace from day to day to the last syllable of recorded time.

- - - William Shakespeare

georgehd
June 27, 2003 - 08:07 pm
The quote by Voltaire which heads this page should probably read - "I want to know what were the steps by which man passed from barbarism to barbarism". Are we more civilized than those who lived in the past?

Justin
June 27, 2003 - 10:35 pm
Good question, George. We think we are civilized today. We think we were a little less civilized fifty years ago, perhaps, even yesterday,a little less civilized. Yesterday we were barbarians. Today we are civilized. Tomorrow we will be more civilized than we are today. So tomorrow we will have been barbarians today.

You must also have read the Durant ingredients of civilization- Economic provision, Political organization, moral traditions, pursuit of knowledge and the Arts. All of these elements are pronounced in our current society and make us worthy of the term "civilization". so long as these elements are present and we are learning day by day to strengthen their influence in our lives, we are civilized. Clearly, there are degrees of civilization. Eighty eight years ago on the first day of the Battle of the Somne, the British KIA reached 60,000 men. Our KIA in the Battle for Iraq amounted to less than 100 men. I don't know whether that represents a gain in civilization or not. Perhaps, it's just an improvement in battle tactics.

robert b. iadeluca
June 28, 2003 - 03:10 am
Thank you, George, for calling attention to Voltaire's quote in the Heading and Justin, for calling attention to the BROWN quotes of Durant. Most of us, after having been here for a while, just slide by these quotes and get on to the postings.

But Durant states there: "Civilization begins where chaos and insecurity ends." So now, in the same spirit of inquiry, can we ask ourselves: "Has chaos ended? Has insecurity ended? Or are they in the process of ending? Were they in the process of ending during the Golden Age of Greece? Now as we read of Greece's Decline and Fall, are chaos and insecurity recommencing? Are they returning to barbarism?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
June 28, 2003 - 04:16 am
"By the fourth century the ruling caste of Sparta had learned how to add private luxury to public simplicity, and even the ephors had ceased, except in outward show, to obsserve the Lycurgean discipline. Much of the land, by dowries and bequests, had fallen into the hands of women. The wealth so accumulatd gave to the Spartan ladies -- free from the care of male children -- an ease of life and morals hardly befitting their name.

"The repated division of some estates had impoverished many families to a point where they could no longer contribute their quota to the public mess, and therefore lost the rights of citizenship. The formation of large properties through intermarriage and legacies had creatd in the few remaining 'Equals' a provocative concentration of wealth. Aristotle writes: 'Some Spartans own domains of vast extent, the others have nearly nothing. All the land is in the hands of a few.'

"The disfranchised gentry, the excluded Perioeci, and the resentful Helots made a population too restless and hostile to permit the government to engage, on any large scale of space or time, in those external military operations which imperial rule required."

Again, class conflict? In Sparta now instead of in Athens?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
June 28, 2003 - 04:36 am
"There will always be poor people in the land."

- - Deuteronomy 15:11

Malryn (Mal)
June 28, 2003 - 06:47 am

It has taken millions of years for human beings to evolve to the point where they are today. Civilization in the United States is a little over 200 years old, nothing in time when related to what came before.

Are we to expect dramatic changes in one short lifetime? I feel glad that there have been some small improvements in attitudes in mine. It's two steps forward and one step back, as far as that is concerned, and appears always to have been this way.

There are times when I think class distinctions are inbred. The big, strong boy who leads the pack will always have more advantages and possessions than those who are under him. Underlings clan together, use their brains, knock the big boy down, and set up another big, strong boy to lead them with lesser ones under him, or her these days. The pattern seems never to change.

Herbert Spencer coined the phrase "survival of the fittest", and that does seem to be the case. In nature doesn't the biggest, strongest animal have more power, more food, a better chance of survival than smaller ones? Spencer wasn't talking about nature when he talked about survival; he was talking about society, politics and science. Regardless, it's hard not to think about animals and how they survive when considering the survival of humans. At least for me it isn't. My disappointment is that we civilized people can't seem to move ahead those two steps and advance two steps more.

Speaking of fittest, I'll be 75 years old this coming Wednesday. Almost a firecracker I am!

Yesterday I received the results of the many, many tests which were done on me June 16 at the Geriatrics Center at Duke University. I'm pleased to say that I am completely healthy -- except for one small problem. I still can't walk. With the help of the physio and occupational therapist who are haunting my dwelling place recently, and a good orthopedist which I have yet to find, perhaps that problem will be overcome soon. At any rate, if I keep on as I have been, there'll be more posts written by me, more electronic magazines published, and more novels written. This healthy old lady, only one small person out of billions of people in this world, won't quit until they take her out feet first.

Happy lifetime, folks! It's all we've got, so enjoy it. Make your mark while you can, I say, whether it shows up in the annals of history or not. I know I intend to.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
June 28, 2003 - 07:16 am
Mal:--I'm pleased to know that you are healthy but had no idea that you were so young. Do you think you will act differently when you are old?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
June 28, 2003 - 07:27 am

Nope, Robby. I'll be as stubborn and feisty as ever when I'm really old!

Mal

Bubble
June 28, 2003 - 07:51 am
We all can take you two as examples to follow: always active in mind and initiatives.

tooki
June 28, 2003 - 08:20 am
I, too, will be 75, or perhaps it's 74, on the 4th. So, Mal, we are both Cancers. I must say, YOU don't sound like a Cancer in your posts. I wonder what "posting like a Cancer" might mean?

Why does it trouble some of you folks that the conduct of human affairs hasn't changed since history began? The real changes occured in pre-history, those millions of years as humans evolved and undertook the long treck out of Africa to cover the earth. The events since, say, Homer and Troy, or even the Bible, are mere specks in human existence. I enjoy the cakes that humans make out the basic human ingredients of greed, cruelty, and the occasional hunk of love. There are, apparently, many ways to mess up, and the Durants have cataloged them all.

Malryn (Mal)
June 28, 2003 - 08:22 am

You bet, BUBBLE. Wonder if it's true that people who are interested in doing things, whether it's a job, playing tennis, knitting sweaters, whatever, live longer?

Here's my tip for living a good healthy life:-

I've smoked too much. At one time I drank much too much. My diet has not always been what it should be, but I don't like meat much and do love vegetables, so that's a plus. I stay up much later than I should because I get lost in writing or making web pages or reading. I do nap every single afternoon. I've never really exercised "formally" until now, but I've pushed myself to keep up with all you "normal guys", so I guess that counts. Though I'm an up and down person in mood, I've learned not to go overboard in either direction, and I long ago stopped worrying my head off about things I can't change or control. That includes worrying about my kids, who darned well can handle their own problems.

Final tip for a good healthy life:- Make sure your parents give you a set of really superlative genes!

Back to Greece, not grease, which I'm cutting down on (again). I love French fries, so I won't stop that. I mean a few every now and then won't hurt, will they?

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
June 28, 2003 - 08:32 am

So that's it, Tooki! You and I are siblings of a sort, with all that implies. Do you like smelts, too?

Why do I get exasperated with human beings in the past and now? If there's one thing I can't stand in myself it's stupidity, and I don't tolerate other stupid fools well, either. Does that answer your question, Tooki?

What do people born under the sign of Cancer sound like? Woof woof or meow? Or is it Southern talk like "Baa baa, see y'all later, hon"?

Mal

tooki
June 28, 2003 - 08:39 am
My garden thrives, and to indicate to you doubters that all things change, try here for a brief glimpse of a Greek Garden

robert b. iadeluca
June 28, 2003 - 08:53 am
"I enjoy the cakes that humans make out the basic human ingredients of greed, cruelty, and the occasional hunk of love."

Tooki, I LOVE that phrase!

Robby

HubertPaul
June 28, 2003 - 11:02 am
Mal, you can always switch to 'freedom fries' :>)

Malryn (Mal)
June 28, 2003 - 02:13 pm

Hubert, they're the greasiest ones of all. I've about decided to switch to Spanakopita instead.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
June 28, 2003 - 02:15 pm
"In 401 the younger Cyrus rebelled against his brother Artaxerxes II, enlisted Sparta's aid, and recruited an army from the thousands of Greek and other mercenaries left idle in Asia by the sudden termination of the Peooponnesian War.

"The two brothers met at Cunaxa, between the converging Tigris and Euphrates. Cyrus was defeated and slain, and all of his army was captured or destroyed except a contingent of twelve thousand Greeks whose quickness of mind and foot enabled them to escape into the interior of Babylonia. Hunted by the King's forces, the Greeks chose, in their rough democratic way, three generals to lead them to safety.

"Among these was Xenophon, once a pupil of Socrates, now a young soldier of fortune, destined to be remembered above all by the Anahasis, or Ascent, in which he later described with engaging simplicity the long 'Retreat of the Ten Thousand' up along the Tigris and over the hills of Kurdistan and Armenia to the Black Sea. It was one of the great adventures in human history.

"We are amazed at the inexhaustible courage of these Greeks, fighting their way on foot, day by day for five months, through two thousand miles of enemy country, across hot and foodless plains, and over perilous mountain passes covered with eight feet of snow, while armies and guerrilla bands attacked them in the rear and in front and on either flank, and hostile natives used every device to kill them, or mislead them, or bar their way.

"As we read this fascinating story, made so dull for us in youth by the compulsion to translate it, we perceive that the most important weapon for any army is food, and that the skill of a commander lies as much in finding supplies as in organizing victory. More of these Greeks died from exposure and starvation than from battle, though the battles were as numerous as the days."

Because of the news in our current newspapers, we have come across familiar names. Tigris! Euphrates! The hills of Kurdestan! Miles of enemy country! Hot and foodless plains!

And perhaps above all -- soldiers "left idle in Asia by the sudden termination of war." Familiar? Dangerous?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
June 28, 2003 - 02:40 pm
Click HERE for more about Cunaxa.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
June 28, 2003 - 02:45 pm

The Art of Horsemanship by Xenophon

Apology of Socrates by Xenophon

A page of links to images

robert b. iadeluca
June 29, 2003 - 03:40 am
"When at last the 8600 survivors sighted the Euxine at Trapezus (Trebizond), their hearts overflowed. As soon as the vanguard got to the top of the mountains, a great cry went up. And when Xenophon and the rear guard heard it, they imagined that other enemies were attacking in front -- for enemies were following behind them.

"They pushed ahead to lend aid, and in a moment they heard the soldiers shouting: 'The sea! the sea!' and passing the word along. Then all the troops of the rear guard likewise broke into a run, and the pack animals began racing ahead. And when all had reached the summit, then indeed they fell to embracing one another, and generals and captains as well, with tears in their eyes.

"For this was a Greek sea, and Trapezus a Greek city. They were safe now, and could rest without fear of death surprising them in the night. The news of their exploit resounded proudly through old Hellas, and encouraged Philip, two generations later, to believe that a well-trained Greek force could be relied upon to defeat a Persian army many times its size.

"Unwittingly Xenophon opened the way for Alexander."

How often through the centuries have soldiers reacted in this way upon seeing their homeland -- perhaps even some participants or lurkers here.

Robby

Bubble
June 29, 2003 - 04:52 am
Thalassa! Thalassa! The sea! That shout is still resounding there if you are willing to listen carefully. It was a great historical moment.

robert b. iadeluca
June 29, 2003 - 05:29 am
Here is a MAP of the Euxine Sea (now known as the Black Sea) which the soldiers greeted with a cheer and on the coast is Trapezus (now known as Trabzon) where they first saw the sea. What was then part of Ancient Greece is apparently now part of Turkey.

I am beginning to understand the ongoing conflict these days between Turkey and Greece.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
June 29, 2003 - 05:53 am
"Agesilaus in 399 had succeeded to the throne of Sparta. Persia might have been persuaded to overlook Sparta's aid to Cyrus but Agesilaus set out with a small force to free all Greek Asia from Persian rule.

"When Artaxerxes II learned that Agesilaus was easily defeating all Persian troops sent against him, he dispatched messengers with abundant gold to Athens and Thebes to bribe these cities into declaring war upon Sparta. The effort readily succeeded, and after nine years of peace the conflict between Athens and Sparta was renewed.

"The united fleets of Athens and Persia under Conon destroyed the Spartan navy near Cnidus, and put an end to Sparta's brief domination of the seas. Athens rejoiced, and set to work energetically, with funds supplied by Persia, to rebuild her Long Walls.

"Sparta offered to surrender the Greek cities of Asia to Persian rule if Persia would enforce among the mainland Greeks a peace that would protect Sparta. The Great King agreed, withdrew his financial support from Athens and Thebes, and compelled all parties to sign at Sardis (387) the 'Peace of Antalcidas,' or the 'King's Peace.'

"All the Greek cities of Asia, along with Cyprus, were declared the property of the King. Athens signed under protest, knowing that this was the most disgraceful event in Greek history. For a generation all the fruits of Marathon were lost. The Greek states of the mainland remained free in name, but in effect the power of Persia had engulfed them.

"All Greece looked upon Sparta as a traitor, and waited eagerly for some nation to destroy her."

Nations don't have friends; they have interests. Money talks.

Robby

georgehd
June 29, 2003 - 09:17 am
Has the group discussed how the Durants are viewed by contemporary historians? I know that they are highly respected but wonder if there has been any criticism of their history of western civilization. I do not have the background to know the answer to this.

I find it almost unbelievable that so many men spent much of their lives fighting.

After writing the above, I found this marvelous site on ancient Greece with many many links to material that we are discussing and reading about. Be sure to scroll down until you get to the material on Greece. There is a wealth of material here.

http://www.omnibusol.com/angreece.html

tooki
June 29, 2003 - 02:27 pm
Georgehd

Robby has set up this discussion group so contemporary views of the Durants are not germane. However, I, too, have also wondered about their status these days. An academic view could be obtained from a Ph.D candidate in History, since they must know the basic texts in their fields. Anybody know one? I don't think a current academic (ie., teacher in history in a university) would be a good source because these days they are all so specialized. Here's something you can do. I can't give you a link because there are too many variables.

Amazon.com gives "Editorial Reviews" for every book they sell, or at least every book I've looked up. These reviews range from the scholarly to the illiterate. They have many reviews on the Durants' books. Here's how: 1. Go to Amazon.com 2. Change the search parameters from "all products" to "books." 3. There are 68 entries for Durant (use Will Durant for searching). 4. I went to "The Greatest Minds and Ideas of All Time." 5. SCROLL DOWN past "Customers who have ...., and "Product Details." 6. Finally you will arrives at "Editorial Reviews." You will see how to navigate from there. The reviews are fascinating. Have fun!

robert b. iadeluca
June 29, 2003 - 04:07 pm
While examining the credentials of any author and/or historian are certainly within the purview of any critical thinker, may I suggest that we continue within the context of Durant's writings.

As we continue to read what he has to say, it should not be difficult to take into consideration the fact that he wrote this in the early 20th Century. Yes, there have been new findings since then but in my personal opinion, his comments made just a few decades ago should not change too much an appraisal of what happened two millennia ago.

The first paragraph in BROWN in the Heading above right below the green quotes has been there for two years through Our Oriental Heritage and now The Life of Greece and perhaps answers the current question.

Any comments about what Durant has to say in Posts 281 and 284?

Robby

tooki
June 29, 2003 - 04:30 pm
All the activity with Agesilaus wanting to war with Persia, (an "interesting adventure," indeed)and the Persian King getting in a huff about it seems frantic, almost frenzied. I wonder how these people communicated so quickly? I can't get clear from the "Chronological Table for Book IV" the years involved. While Agesilaus became King of Sparta in 399, it's not clear when he decided to war with Persia. I think I will go look for some links.

tooki
June 29, 2003 - 04:45 pm
Scroll down:this table appears to be an exact copy of the one the Durants' composed! Since it is appearing in a current University syllabus I believe that answers any questions about the Durants' scholarship. (I'm sorry, Rob; no more!)

Durants' Table!

moxiect
June 29, 2003 - 07:23 pm
The more I read the comments made here, the more I believe that to understand what is happening in the present one must read and become knowledgable of the past and because of understanding the past, the present is repeating the cycle and that the past plus the present also holds the key to the future of the human race.

Fifi le Beau
June 29, 2003 - 07:26 pm
I do not write often, but I try to read the daily postings. Durant in my opinion is a wonderful historian, and his books will still be read and used for reference as long as there are copies.

Wishing Malryn and Tooki an early Happy Birthday!

It saddens me to reach this point in the life of Greece, and know the future for them. As has been written before, no time in history has had such a profound impact on Western civilization as the Golden Age of Greece.

As we read of the wars without end, and one city state pitted against the other, I wonder what would have happened if they had been able to form a lasting federation of states with a strong central power united and governing all.

I could see the same fate for our own country, had the South prevailed in the Civil War. Perhaps the western states would have formed their own confederation since many had not been in the union at that time. There could have been more war over that territory by both the North and South, each reaching for control of the land and its people.

Lincoln saved us from that fate by refusing to allow this country to break apart into factions, even though it meant a long bloody war. Had we had leaders such as Greece had in our current reading, things might be different for us today. I am thankful for the United States of America, especially the United part.

Greece could be a warning sign that one or two bad leaders can reek havoc on an unwilling populace. The leader takes them to war and the assembly condemns those who lead the effort. When a civilization kills off their bravest and best fighting each other with useless wars, soon there is nothing left but the weak and infirmed.

I praise Abraham Lincoln for saying us from that fate. His goal was to unite the states, not just control them.

......

Justin
June 29, 2003 - 11:46 pm
First Athens dominates Greece. Then Sparta dominates Greece. Then Thebes dominates Greece. Finally, Phillip, the Macedonian, dominates Greece and makes way for his son Alexander. The empire of the Golden Age is little more than a memory when the Theban general dies on the field of battle.

Phillip and the fourth century will bring new variations on the accomplishments of the fifth century. Philosophy will answer some of the questions raised by Socrates. Plato will continue to embellish his ideas well into the fourth century. Aristotle is yet to come.

Hellenism will come to the arts. It will add a dimension called realism and the idealistic forms of the Golden Age will pass.

Democracy, in the direct form, will disappear more and more with Spartan control, with Theban control and finally, with Phillip and we will not see it again, not even in republican Rome, for many centuries.

I wonder if there is a lesson here for us in the modern world. We have found a way to pass the baton, peacefully. Lincoln found the way to quell rival factions. Cities may challenge one another but resolve differences in the courts. We are united in the US and because we are united we are strong.

We are united , however, in domestic self interest not in global expansion. Leaders who take us into areas beyond our borders, do so by risking the very fabric that ties us together- our domestic self interest. George Washington was right. Geographical aggrandisement, for whatever purpose, makes us different than we were when we were states united.

robert b. iadeluca
June 30, 2003 - 03:17 am
Moxie, Fifi, and Justin (along with others here) think constantly of the present while reading about the past. And although there seems to be a constant repetition, cycles if you will, of events, nevertheless, as pointed out, we learn and we learn and we learn. Sometimes we take action based upon what we have learned and sometimes we don't. Interesting how what is written in daily newspapers often seems to be a re-writing of what happened hundreds and thousands of years ago. As I look back at leaders such as Washington, Lincoln, Julius Caesar, Charlemagne, Napoleon, etc. I wonder how many of them were students of history.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
June 30, 2003 - 03:35 am
Durant continues:--

"To weaken Thebes, Sparta insisted that the Boeotian Confederacy violated the autonomy clause of the treaty, and must be dissolved. With this excuse the Spartan army set up in many Boeotian cities oligarchic governments favorable to Sparta and in several cases upheld by Spartan garrisons.

When Thebes protested, a Lacedaemonian force captured her citadel, the Cadmeia, and established an oligarchy subject to Spartan domination. The crisis aroused Thebes to unwonted heroism. Pelopidas and six companions assassinated the four 'Laconizing' dictators of Thebes, and reasserted Theban liberty. The Confederacy was reorganized, and named Pelopidas its leader, or boeotarch.

"Pelopidas called to his aid his friend and lover Epaminondas, who trained and led the army that reduced Sparta to her ancient isolation."

One thing that I have learned from looking backward in time is that nations (actually the leaders of the nations) create "excuses" for taking the actions they take. Sometimes this works and sometimes it doesn't. I think of Argentina, the United Kingdom, and the Faulkland Islands.

Robby

tooki
June 30, 2003 - 05:56 am
Justin says, "We are united in domestic self interest, not in global expansion." That may be. However, the actuality of life as we are trying to understand it now mandates that the exponentially expanding Internet be taken into account seriously as an important factor in our understanding the world today. Thomas Friedman, New York Times columnist, discusses the internet as a "bridge builder" this morning. Here is his column. Scroll down to, "Google as God? Thomas Friedman

Éloïse De Pelteau
June 30, 2003 - 06:03 am
L’Économie Triumphante, by Albert Jacquard.

”The thinking of Decision Makers today permanently swims in concepts manipulated by Economists; the formulation of problems itself is conditioned by key words that they have invented. Economists have acquired a significant ally: the computer. Software, so subtle that no one can really describe its content, handles a multitude of data announcing ‘Truth’. Their conclusions can hardly be put in doubt because few really know the details of the progression by which they were obtained, neither of course the hypotheses that bases its reasoning. These conclusions have as much weight as revealed ‘Truths’ of long ago. It is at the source of a veritable fanaticism, as radical as certain religious sects: The Economic Fanaticism”

In our lifetime we have seen the effect the computer has. Its effect is insidious and profound. Life will be totally different for our children. Thanks to computer technology wars will be fought and won inside a few days or weeks, losers losing 100 times more lives than winners. Technology has modified the dynamics of war making it impossible for any nation who are not up to par to measure themselves to those who have the advanced technology.

Eloïse

robert b. iadeluca
June 30, 2003 - 06:17 am
"Epaminondas came of a distinguished but impoverished family which proudly traced its origin to the dragon's teeth sown by Cadmus a thousand years before. He was a quiet man, of whom it was said that no one talked less or knew more.

"His modesty and integrity, his almost ascetic life, his devotion to his friends, his prudence in counsel, his courage and yet self restraint in action, endeared him to all the Thebans despite the military discipline to which he subjected them.

"He did not love war, but he was convinced that no nation could lose all martial spirit and habits and yet maintain its freedom. Elected and many times re-elected boeotarch, he warned those who proposed to vote for him: 'Bethink yourselves once more. If I am made general you will be compelled to serve in my army.'

"Under his command the lax Thebans were drilled into good soldiers. Even the 'Greek lovers' who were so numerous in the city were formed by Pelopidas into a 'Sacred Band' of three hundred hoplites, each of whom was pledged to stand by his friend, in battle, to the death."

No nation can lose all martial spirit and habits and yet maintain its freedom?

Robby

tooki
June 30, 2003 - 11:45 am
"No nation could lose all martial spirit and habits and yet maintain its freedom."

And that brings up the Second Amendment, the one whose interpretation is hotly debated. Here it is, in all its brevity.

AMENDMENT 2: A WELL-REGULATED MILITIA BEING NECESSARY TO THE SECURITY OF A FREE STATE, THE RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED.

Currently, the tide of opinion favors that "the right of the people to keep and bear arms" refers NOT to the "militia," but to the "people." This is an important issue because if the reference is to the "people," then any efforts at taking away people's guns, i.e., gun control, is unconstitutional.

I support gun control to the extent that the public is protected. We already have that. We need no more laws that unconstituionally take away our guns.

Justin
June 30, 2003 - 01:45 pm
Robby says,,"Leaders create excuses for taking the actions they take." I think you have something there. The current excuse is the missing WMD-a lie that has cost 200 American lives so far and more to come.

Justin
June 30, 2003 - 01:54 pm
In spite of the Second Amendment, I draw the line at Thompson Submachine guns,OOzis and grenades. Mortars are ok. The base plates are too heavy for drive-by shootings. Most of the warriors picked up be the police these days are armed like members of a heavy weapons platoon. Unfortunately, the police are not armed like Dirty Harry. They carry small arms- not enough to protect themselves let alone us.

robert b. iadeluca
June 30, 2003 - 06:31 pm
"When a Spartan army of ten thousand troops under King Cleombrotus invaded Boeotia, Epaminondas met it at Leuctra, near Plataea, with six thousand men, and won a victory that influenced the politial history of Greece and the military methods of Europe. He counted on facing odds in every battle, and concentrated his best fighters upon one wing for offense, while the remainder were ordered to follow a policy of defense. In this way the enemy, advancing in the center, could be disordered by a flank attack on its left.

"After Leuctra, Epaminondas and Pelopidas marched into the Peloponnesus, freed Messenia from its century-long vassalage to Sparta, and founded the city of Megalopolis as a stronghold for all Arcadians. Even into Laconia the Theban army descended, -- an event without precedent for hundreds of years past.

"Sparta never recovered from her losses in the campaign. Says Aristotle, 'She could not stand up against a single defeat but was ruined through the small number of her citizens.'"

A scary thought! A nation with a powerful military which was ruined because it could not bear a single defeat.

Robby

Justin
June 30, 2003 - 10:56 pm
In the movies the cavalrymen forced to circle the wagons kill hundreds of indians but there are always more to ride away when the rescue party shows up. Not so with Sparta. So many male Spartans were killed during all the battles that few were left to accept a defeat and to return to the wars another day, recovered.

robert b. iadeluca
July 1, 2003 - 03:52 am
A glance at the new GREEN quotes above gives us a picture of the future of Athens and perhaps a lesson for us.

"The brief hegemony of Thebes left no permanent boon to Hellas. It liberated Greece from the despotism of Sparta, but failed to create beyond Boeotia a coherent unity.

"Athens made a final attempt to forge such a unity. Through her rebuilt walls and fleet, the dependability of her coinage, her long-established facilties for finance and trade, she slowly won back commercial supremacy in the Aegean. Her former subjects and allies had learned from the wars of the last half century the need for a larger security than individual sovereignty could bring.

"In 378 the majority of them cobmined again under Athens' leadership."

If I understand this properly, this nation which had again become supreme learned that it and others could hold on to their strength by forming, if I may use the word, a coalition.

Robby

tooki
July 1, 2003 - 06:10 am
Here's a little more explanation: Second Athenian Empire

tooki
July 1, 2003 - 06:19 am
this is more than you care to know about the details of the Second Athenian Empire.

It Does Go On!

Malryn (Mal)
July 1, 2003 - 08:01 am

Map, the Hellenistic World 240 BC

Map, the Hellenistic World 90 BC

Macedonian expansion under Phlip and Alexander, interactive map with Shockwave

Malryn (Mal)
July 1, 2003 - 09:05 am

Sculpture, Hellenistic Period

More Hellenistic sculpture, many images

robert b. iadeluca
July 1, 2003 - 04:47 pm
"Industry and trade were now the substance of her economic life. The soil of Attica had never been propitious to common tillage. Patient labor had made it fruitful through tending the olve tree and the vine. But the Spartans had destroyed these, and few of the peasants were willing to wait half a generation for new olive orchards to yield. Most of the farmers of prewar days were dead. Many of the survivors were too discouraged to go back to their ruined holdings, and sold them at low prices to absentee owners who could afford long-term investments.

"In this way, and through the eviction of peasant debtors, the ownership of Attica passed into a few families, who worked many of the large estates with slaves. The mines at Laurium were reopened, fresh victims were sent into the pits, and new riches were transmuted out of silver ore and human blood. Xenophon proposed a genial plan whereby Athens might replenish her treasury through the purchase of ten thousand slaves and their lease to the contractors at Laurium.

"Silver was mined in such abundance that the supply of the metal outran the production of goods, prices rose faster than wages, and the poor bore the burden of the change."

And so "democratic" Athens became rich on the backs of slaves.

Robby

tooki
July 1, 2003 - 09:05 pm
Without slavery Greek citizens would not have had the time to be citizens and participate in all those activities the Greeks valued. Since in the United States we elect politicians and give them time to be citizens and participate in all the activities Americans value, what does that make us?

More details on:Greek Slavery

tooki
July 1, 2003 - 09:13 pm
The Second Athenian Empire was built on the dead bodies of the slaves who died in the mines at Laurium, as was the First.

Slaves and Silver

robert b. iadeluca
July 2, 2003 - 02:50 am
"Without slavery Greek citizens would not have had the time to be citizens."

Thank you, Tooki, for those excellent links which make us stop and think. Both were most enlightening.

How interesting is the human mind which can hold onto two conflicting thoughts simultaneously without seeing lack of logic. If, as your link shows, over 20,000 slaves escaped, then their lives must have been horrible. What went through the minds of those Athens bankers who handled the silver coins derived from the blood and sweat of fellow human beings? Even as they were proclaiming publicly the value of democracy.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness."

- - - The Declaration of Independence

If we follow the "logic" in the quote above, does that mean that slavery is necessary to give us "time" to be citizens, the Declaration of Independence notwithstanding? The day after tomorrow almost 300,000,000 Americans celebrate the "equality of men."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 2, 2003 - 03:51 am
"Industry flourished. The quarries at Pentelicus and the potteries in the Ceramicus had orders from all the Aegean world. Fortunes were made by buying cheap the products of domestic handicraft or small factories and selling them dear in the home market or abroad.

"The growth of commerce and the accumulation of wealth in money instead of in land, rapidly multiplied the number of bankers in Athens. They received cash or valuables for safekeeping, but apparently paid no interest on deposits. Soon discovering that under normal conditions not all deposits were reclaimed at once, the bankers begn to lend funds at substantial rates of interest providing, at first, money instead of credit.

"They acted as bail for clients, and made collections for them. They lent money on the security of land or precious articles, and helped to finance the shipments of goods. Through their aid, and even more through speculative loans by private individuals, the merchant might hire a ship, transport his goods to a foreign market, and buy there a return cargo -- which, on reaching the Piraeus, remained the property of the lenders until the loan was repaid.

"As the fourth century progressed, a real credit system developed. The bankers, instead of advancing cash, issued letters of credit, money orders, or checks. Wealth could now pass from one client to another merely by entries in the banker's books. Businessmen or bankers issued bonds for mercantile loans, and every large inheritance included a number of such bonds.

"Some bankers, like the ex-slave Pasion, developed so many connections, and acquired by a discriminating honesty so widespread a reputation for reliability, that their bond was honored throughout the Greek world. Pasion's bank had many departments and employees, mostly slaves. It kept a complex set of books in which every transaction was so carefully recorded, that these accounts were usually accepted in court as indisputable evidence. Bank failure were not uncommon, and we hear of 'panics' in which bank after bank closed its doors.

"Serious charges of malfeasance were brought against even the most prominent banks, and the people looked upon the bankers with the same mixture of envy, admiration, and dislike with which the poor favor the rich in all ages."

I find myself surprised that just about everything that happens in today's financial world took place in Greece 2,500 years ago. I have to remind myself that a millenium or two in the course of history is but a drop in the bucket and that this was a "civilized" nation which existed only "yesterday."

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
July 2, 2003 - 05:42 am
"I am not nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way the social or political equality of the white and black races -- that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negros, nor qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will for ever forbid the two races from living together on terms of social and political equality."

-- Abraham Lincoln, 1858, Lincoln-Douglas debates

About the Emancipation Proclamation:

"President Lincoln read the first draft of this document to his stunned Cabinet on July 22, 1862. After some changes, he issued the preliminary version on September 22, which specified that the final document would take effect January 1, 1863. Slaves in Confederate states which were not back in the Union by then would be free, but slaves in the Border States were not affected."
Only the slaves in states not back in the union by January 1, 1863 were freed. "Slaves in the Border States were not affected." Abraham Lincoln, like others, did not disapprove of slavery; he issued the Emancipation Proclamation for economic and political reasons.

Jefferson and Washington and others of our forefathers who wrote the Constitution owned slaves. George Mason of Virginia was one of the few who protested slavery:
" Every master of slaves is born a petty tyrant. They bring the judgement of heaven upon a country. As nations can not be rewarded or punished in the next world they must be in this. By an inevitable chain of causes & effects providence punishes national sins, by national calamities. He lamented that some of our Eastern brethren had from a lust of gain embarked in this nefarious traffic. As to the States being in possession of the Right to import, this was the case with many other rights, now to be properly given up. He held it essential in every point of view that the Genl. Govt. should have power to prevent the increase of slavery."

George Mason, Virginia, 1787

MORE

Malryn (Mal)
July 2, 2003 - 07:02 am

Comparative Chronology of Money, 9000-1 BC

Malryn (Mal)
July 2, 2003 - 07:12 am

"The great variety of coinages originally in use in the Hellenic world meant that money changing was the earliest and most common form of Greek banking. Usually the money changers would carry out their business in or around temples and other public buildings, setting up their trapezium-shaped tables (which usually carried a series of lines and squares for assisting calculations), from which the Greek bankers, the trapezitai derived their name, much as our name for bank comes from the Italian banca for bench or counter. The close association between banking, money changing and temples is best known to us from the episode of Christ's overturning the tables in the Temple of Jerusalem (Matthew 21.12).

"Money changing was not the only form of banking. One of the most important services was bottomry or lending to finance the carriage of freight by ships. Other business enterprises supported by the Greek bankers included mining and construction of public buildings. The most famous and richest of all was Pasion who started his banking career in 394 BC as a slave in the service of two leading Athenian bankers and rose to eclipse his masters, gaining in the process not only his freedom but also Athenian citizenship. In addition to his banking business he owned the largest shield factory in Greece and also conducted a hiring business lending domestic articles such as clothes, blankets, silver bowls etc. for a lucrative fee."


SOURCE

robert b. iadeluca
July 2, 2003 - 11:23 am
Most of us have read in the Bible of the close association of banking, money changing, and the temple but only recently through Our Oriental Heritage and The Life of Greece did I come to realize that this connection existed for centuries in many oriental cultures.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 2, 2003 - 11:49 am
Click HERE for an off topic but not too far from Ancient Greece.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 3, 2003 - 03:24 am
"The masses cherished their superstitions and clung to their myths. The gods of Olympus were dying, but new ones were being born. Exotic divinities like Isis and Ammon, Arys and Bendis, Cybele and Adonis were imported from Egypt or Asia, and the spread of Orphism brought fresh devotees to Dionysus every day.

"The rising and half-alien bourgeoisie of Athens, trained to practical calculation rather than to mystic feeling, had little use for the traditional faith. The patron gods of the city won from them only a formal reverence, and no longer inspired them with moral scruples or devotion to the state. Philosophy struggled to find in civic loyalty and a natural ethic some substitute for divine commandments and a surveillant deity. Few citizens cared to live with the simplicity of Socrates, or the magnanimity of Aristotle's 'great-minded man.'

"As the state religion lost its hold upon the educated classes, the individual freed himself more and more from the old moral restraints -- the son from parental authority, the male from marriage, the woman from motherhood, the citizen from political responsibility."

Does anyone see that last sentence applicable to today? Or not? When religion in one form or another dies, do moral scruples automatically die? What are the differences between "mainstream religions" and "New Age?" Are divine commandments stronger than a "natural ethic?"

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
July 3, 2003 - 05:04 am

What "divine commandments", Robby? Human beings wrote those codes of behavior and created those gods, didn't they? It sounds to me as if Greece is now in transition, betwixt and between, and looking for something new. Now is the time for a stern leader to come in and tighten the reins. Isn't that usually the way history happens? I wonder if it will hold true in this case?

Mal

depfran
July 3, 2003 - 05:09 am
We cannot serve two masters. Each man is responsible for his own destiny. That is the freedom of choice in a democratic world. We have to chose what is morally right for our individual survival and the collective one. The mothers have that responsibility within the family to guide the children towards the highest moral values that will make the society a place of peace and growth. The mothers are the upholder of the society. It is not the government who is responsible for the peoples morality. They can provide security and freedom of choice to each of it's citizens for their individual self-realization. If that freedom of choice is not used for growing the fall of the morality in a state is sure to follow.

Françoise

Malryn (Mal)
July 3, 2003 - 05:35 am

The government certainly enforces morality, Francoise. Step outside the law, and you pay a fine or go to jail. Step outside the laws of most religions, and you risk the chance of ending up in hell.

Mainstream religions follow patterns and traditions that are centuries old. New Age religions with their crystals, bells and goddess worship sometimes often are a throwback to pagan times, the same pagan times from which the mainstream religions sprang.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
July 3, 2003 - 08:44 am
Francoise:--"Mothers have that responsibility within the family to guide the children towards the highest moral values that will make the society a place of peace and growth. The mothers are the upholder of the society."

What happened to the fathers?

Robby

tooki
July 3, 2003 - 08:56 am
Changes in Athens as noted by the Durants in Robby's last four or five posts seem familiar to descriptions of the United States during the Depression, perhaps even now.

"The change from landed to movable wealth produced a feverish struggle for money...." "Hundreds of citizens depended for their maintenance upon the fees paid for attendance at the Assembly or the courts...." Similar, somehow, to relief roll provided by the government. "The middle classes, as well as the rich, began to distruct democracy...." "...the individual freed himself from the old moral restraints...." "...the intellectual classes took the side of the poor and like Plato, began to flirt with communist ideas.

All of this spade work for change. In Athens: Plato's Republic and the stirrings of Christianity. In the United States, intellectuals' flirting with Marxism in the 1930s; continuing with New Age religions: the new paganism, the old fundamentalism.

robert b. iadeluca
July 3, 2003 - 09:02 am
"The morals of war improved in the fourth century, and a wave of Enlightenment humanitarianism followed the teachings of Euripides and Socrates, and the example of Agesilaus. But sexual and political morality continued to decline.

"Bachelors and courtesans increased in fashionable co-operation, and free unions gained ground on legal marriage. 'Is not a concubine more desirable than a wife?' asks a characer in a fourth-century comedy. 'The one has on her side the law that compels you to retain her, no matter how displeasing she may be. The other knows that she must hold a man by behaving well, or else look for another.'

"Says Theopompus, 'The young men spent all their time agong flute-girls and courtesans. Those who were a little older devoted themselves to gambling and profligacy. The whole people spent more on public banquets and entertainments than on the provision necessary for the well-being of the state."

Could one say that our Western Civilization, regarding co-habitation vs marriage, frequenting of flute-girls (call girls), and older people devoting themselves to gambling, has now "caught up" with Ancient Greece?

And, oh yes, the "morals of war" whatever that means.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 3, 2003 - 09:06 am
Interesting comparison, Tooki. I hadn't thought of that.

Robby

tooki
July 3, 2003 - 11:50 am
Killing Power.

Here, some information on killing power from a book. Humans were killing each other one at a time by throttling and cudgelling in the Great Rift Valley, East Africa, pre 2,700,000BP. By 340BC Polydius had invented something called torsion catapults which killed about 4 men at once. By 1967 there existed a Fractional Orbital Bombardment Satellite, developed for a hemispherical range of up to 12,560 miles; it has an "extreme potential" for a "maximum toll."

Now we kill each other from great distances, without even dirtying our hands. The Durants" "morals of war" must be our capacity to put more and more distance between ourselves and the act of killing.

Justin
July 3, 2003 - 05:59 pm
The morals of war improved in that prisoners of war, for once were not killed. It think Athens tried forgiveness once. When compared with their retributions at Melos, I think this treatment of prisoners was a great improvement. It did not last long. When the Romans came along, prisoners were returned to Rome as trophies and either crucified after the triumphal march or enslaved.

There are two kinds of POW- the dangerous and the docile. Armies have difficulty sorting them out and as a result tend to treat all POWs with caution. Any other approach would be foolish.

robert b. iadeluca
July 3, 2003 - 07:59 pm
"Possibly subtler factors entered into the weakening of Athens.

"The life of thought endangers every civilization that it adorns.

"In the earlier stages of a nation's history there is little thought. Action flourishes. Men are direct, uninhibited, frankly pugnacious and sexual.

"As civilization develops, as customs, institutions, laws, and morals more and more restrict the operation of natural impulses -- action gives way to thought -- achievement to imagination -- directness to subtlety -- expression to concealment -- cruelty to sympathy -- belief to doubt -- the unity of character common to animals and primitive men passes away.

"Behavior becomes fragmentary and hesitant, conscious and calculating. The willingness to fight subsides into a disposition to infinite argument. Few nations have been able to reach intellectual refinement and esthetic sensitivity without sacrificing so much in virility and unity that their wealth presents an irresistible temptation to impecunious barbarians.

"Around every Rome hover the Gauls.

"Around every Athens some Macedon."

Perhaps Durant is defining civilization to us -- thought, indirection, inhibition, imagination, subtlety, concealment, sympathy, doubt, hesitant conscious and calculating behavior, and infinite arguing. All those traits opposed to the action and not thought, lack of inhibition, pugnaciousness, raw sexuality, and a surrender to natural impulses of the barbarian.

Robby

Justin
July 3, 2003 - 10:29 pm
Civilization is more vulnerable to outside dangers than barbarism. The civilized stop to think before repulsing attack.The barbarian attacks. The civilized fears the loss of posessions. The barbarian carries it all on his back. The civilized is more entrenched. The barbarian is more mobile.

Justin
July 3, 2003 - 10:37 pm
Is our Macedon ourselves? Do we have enough rope to hang ourselves? We send our children to every hot spot on the globe to die on foreign soil for a foreign cause. I think this practice must end. Rome tried it and failed. The Pax Romanum ended by Rome over extending it's military power in the same way we are overextending today. The Germans caught the Romans in the woods and demolished them.

robert b. iadeluca
July 4, 2003 - 04:08 am
LIFE

"The unexamined life is not worth living."

"We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark. The real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light."

- - Plato

"Not life, but good life, is to be chiefly valued."

- - Socrates

LIBERTY

"If liberty and equality, as is thought by some, are chiefly to be found in democracy, they will be best attained when all persons alike share in government to the utmost."

- - Aristotle

PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS

"Happiness is an expression of the soul in considered actions."

- - Aristotle

"Happiness depends upon ourselves."

- - Plato

On this wonderful Fourth of July, celebrate and enjoy this holiday in your own personal and independent way!!!

Robby

depfran
July 4, 2003 - 04:36 am
Robby, may I anwer your question? Fathers are the exemple of the ideal man a child will look upon as an exemple to reach. He is indeed very powerful and impressive as a good father should be if he is reflecting the qualities of the ideal father. The mother is only the trainee to help the child reach there, the sunlight of his life, the security and the ultimate law of the house.

Françoise

Shasta Sills
July 4, 2003 - 08:07 am
That description of the effects of cilization (#328) on a nation is rather discouraging. When a friend and I were discussing the last presidential election, I said that a certain candidate didn't seem intelligent enough to be president. He told me we don't need an intellectual to run the country because intellectuals consider too many sides of an issue and get confused. He said we need a man who sees things in simple terms, decides on a simple course of action, and follows it through to its end. When I said I saw no reason to go to war against Iraq, this friend explained it to me in these same simple terms. "We were attacked by terrorists. When we are attacked, we retaliate. If we don't know who sent the terrorists, we pick out the likeliest country, and demolish it. If we get attacked again, we pick out another country and do the same thing. Americans may not understand this strategy, but you can be sure the Arabs got the message." This kind of thinking sounds appalling to me, a return to barbarism.

Justin
July 4, 2003 - 11:08 pm
Shasta: I think your friend is describing the fellow he and many similar folks supported for public office. They now have what they wanted- An unthinking, aggressive personality at the helm of the most powerful ship of state in the world and our boys are paying for his irresponsible bravado.

robert b. iadeluca
July 5, 2003 - 03:54 am
And now to that famous city -- Syracuse.

"Dionysius I, unscrupulous, treacherous, and vain, was the most capable administrator of h is time. By turning the island of Ortygia into a fortress-residence for himself, and walling in the causeway that bound it with the mainland, he had rendered his position almost immune in attack. By doubling the pay of his soldiers, and leading them to easy victories, he secured from them a personal loyalty that kept him on the throne for thirty-eight years.

"Having established his government, he changed his early policy of severity to one of conciliatory mildness, and a kind of egalitarian despotism. He gave choice tracts of land to his officers and his friends, and (as a military measure) assigned nearly all the residences on Ortygia and the causeway to his soldiers. All the remaining soil of Syracuse and its environs he distributed equally among the population, free and slave.

"Under his guidance Syracuse flourished, though he taxed the people almost as severely as the Assembly taxed the Athenians. When the women became too ornate, Dionysius announced that Demeter had appeared to him in a dream and bidden him order all feminine jewelry to be deposited in her temple. He obeyed the goddess, and the women for the most part obeyed him.

"Soon afterward he 'borrowed' the jewelry from Demeter to finance his campaigns."

Interesting how treachery and capability often go together. I am wondering if this is, in general, good for the people or not.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
July 5, 2003 - 05:53 am

DIONYSIUS THE ELDER

"The catapult was invented in ancient Greece (in 399 BC) by Dionysius the Elder of Syracuse. The catapult is a device that hurls heavy objects or arrows over a large distance. The Romans later added wheels to the catapult to make it more maneuverable. Also called the ballista, this device was a major weapon of warfare for well over a thousand years. A double-armed catapult (also called the trebuchet) was invented by Mariano Taccola of Siena during the Middle Ages, about 1400 AD.

The Story of Damocles and the Ear of Dionysius




(DAMOCLES is also a self-consistent Poisson/Monte Carlo computer program simulating electronic transport in semiconductor devices.



(Transport of charge carriers (electrons and/or holes) is treated using an ensemble Monte Carlo algorithm to solve the Boltzmann transport equation. The kinematics (free flights) and dynamics (scattering) are modeled using the band-structure of the semiconductors obtained from empirical pseudopotentials calculations. A two-dimensional Poisson solver is used to calculate the electrostatic potential self-consistently with the Monte Carlo charge distribution. Devices of arbitrary geometry, realistic doping profiles, and a variety of cubic and zinc-blend semiconductors can be simulated.)

(Courtesy of IBM.)

tooki
July 5, 2003 - 06:09 am
Many thanks, Mal, for presenting IBM's information. The phrase that really captured my imagination was, "realistic doping profiles," which I took to be pictures of old hippies who did too much LSD. OK, OK, back to Dionysius.

Malryn (Mal)
July 5, 2003 - 06:56 am

Tooki, the doping data I read about have more to do with pixels than they do with hippies.

Mal

tooki
July 5, 2003 - 07:37 am
Pixy, hippy, they both sparkle with stardust.

I can't find Syracuse, to refresh myself on why they want Carthage.

Malryn (Mal)
July 5, 2003 - 07:59 am

Pixels not pixies.

Pixel = The smallest image-forming unit of a video display.

The Rise of Carthage

Map of Sicily. Siracusa is on southeast corner

Map of Carthage to show proximity to Sicily. Sicily is near the toe of Italy

robert b. iadeluca
July 5, 2003 - 08:43 am
"At the bottom of all his plans lay the resolve to expel the Carthaginians from Sicily. Land battles among the Greeks had heretofore been fought by infantry. Dionysius organized a large body of cavalry, and here, too, gave hints to Philip and Alexander. At the same time he poured funds into the building of two hundred ships. In speed and power this was such an armada as Greece had never seen.

"Dionysius sent an embassy to Carthage to demand the liberation of all Greek cities in Sicily from Carthaginian rule. Anticipating a refusal, he invited these cities to expel their foreign governments. They did. Still enraged by the memory of Hannibal's massacres, they put to death, with tortures seldom used by Greeks, all Carthaginians who fell into their hands.

"Dionysius did his best to stop the carnage, hoping to sell the captives as slaves. Carthage ferried over a vast army under Himilcon, and war went on at intervals in 397, 392, 383, and 368.

"In the end, Carthage recovered all that Dionysius had won from her, and after the bloodshed matters stood as before."

Much hostility between two different cultures, intermittent war for 35 years, much torture and bloodshed, with a result of no change.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 5, 2003 - 02:50 pm
"Dionysius had meanwhile turned his arms against the Greek cities in the island. Having subjugated them, he crossed over into Italy, conquered Rhegium, and mastered all southwest Italy.

"He attacked Etruria and took a thousand talents from its temple at Agylla. He planned to plunder the shrine of Apollo at Delphi, but time did not permit.

"Greece mourned that in the same year (387) liberty had fallen in the west, and in the east had been sold to Persia by the King's Peace. Three years before, Brennus and the Gauls had stood in triumph at the gates of Rome.

"Everywhere the barbarians on the fringe of the Greek world were growing stronger. The ravages of Dionysius in southern Italy paved the way for the conquest of its Greek settlements first by the surrounding natives, and then by the half-barbarous Romans.

"At the next Olympic games the orator Lysias called upon Greece to denounce the new tyrant. The multitude attacked the tents of Dionyusius' embassy, and refused to hear his poetry."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 5, 2003 - 02:56 pm
While democracy strives to remain alive, BARBARIANS try to defeat it.

Robby

Justin
July 5, 2003 - 03:06 pm
Where did all this resolution stuff come from? Pixels etc.

The First day on the Somne 1914, The British lost 100,000 men and gained two feet of German held French soil. Things have not changed.

robert b. iadeluca
July 5, 2003 - 03:07 pm
While democracy strives to remain alive, BARBARIANS try to defeat it.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 5, 2003 - 03:09 pm
Here, in detail, (more than you want to know) is INFO ABOUT THE BARBARIANS FROM GAUL who tried to move into Asia Minor.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
July 5, 2003 - 03:27 pm

Justin, I am interested in the influence of Ancient Greece on our present-day world. That IBM has a sophisticated computer program called Damocles seemed noteworthy.

In a search for "Brennus" just now, I found two electronic games revolving around war among Celts, a rose by that name, a moth named Brennus, a hotel named Brennus in Basque country and a soccer team called Brennus from near Biarritz.

Mal

tooki
July 5, 2003 - 04:27 pm
in previous posts seems in danger: "The life of thought endangers every civilization it adorns." Vaclav Havel, President of the Czech Republic, had some comments in "Reason," the magazine, which may be pertinent. These are paraphrases mixed with quotes.

"Living in truth" amid a totalitarian nightmare meant an openness to an objective "order of Being." The guarantees of human freedom and personal responsibility are to be found neither in programs nor systems, but in "man's relationship with what transcends him, without which he would not be." Man has lost his "transcendal anchor," which is the only genuine source of his responsibility and self respect. Havel does not argue for a single "universal key to salvation" so much as the recovery of the "archetypal spirituality" that is the foundation of most cultures.

I take this to mean that without religion, the transcendal anchor, civilizations will have great problems surviving at least totalitarianism, and probably other evils. Does humankind need religion this much?

robert b. iadeluca
July 5, 2003 - 04:44 pm
"The dictator's life was ended not by any of the assassins whom he feared, but by his own poetry. In 367 his tragedy, The Ransom of Hector, received first prize at the Athenian Lenaea. Dionysius was so pleased that he feasted with his friends, drank much wine, fell into a fever, and died.

"The harassed city, which had borne with him as an alternative to subjection by Carthage, accepted hopefully the succession of his son to the throne. Dionysius II was now a youth of twenty-five, weak in body and mind, and therefore, thought the crafty syracusans, likely to give them a mild and negligent rule.

"Doubtless the young autocrat put his best foot forward and concealed that addiction to drink and lechery which had drawn from his father the prediction that the dynasty would die with his son.

"Plato led him towrd philosophy by its most difficult approaches -- mathematics and virtue. All the court began to study geometry, and to stand in diplomatic awe over figures traced in the sane. But Philistius, eclipsed by Plato's ascendancy, whispered to the dictator that all this was merely a plot by which the Athenians, who had failed to conquer Syracuse with an army and a fleet, would capture it through a single man.

"Dionysius saw in these whispers an excellent escape from geometry. Plato left Syracuse."

Robby

Justin
July 5, 2003 - 07:13 pm
Tooki; I don't think superstition ever solved any problem. When a dictator has one down and there seems nowhere to turn, one gains nothing by resorting to prayer. The time is better spent in thinking about removing the guy or in removing oneself from his domain. On the one hand there is a chance one is engaged in productive thought. On the other hand there is no possibility of improving one's lot. I suppose a great many can take comfort in prayer and be happy in their misery. But solutions do not come from prayer. They come from productive thought.

Justin
July 5, 2003 - 07:19 pm
OK, Mal. I understand. The IBM program appeared out of the blue (Big Blue) and startled me.

Malryn (Mal)
July 5, 2003 - 07:54 pm

Justin, what I said in Post #336 about Dionysius and Damocles came from IBM web pages. I investigated a little further in that site and found the other information I posted. Even Big Blue was influenced by the Ancient Greeks. I guess there isn't much that wasn't in our Western civilizations.

Mal

Bubble
July 6, 2003 - 01:23 am
Vercingetorix was a barbarian? The Belgians called him an ancestors. "By the Spirit of Titatu", Robby's site brought back long forgotten history lessons about Gaul and the Celts... Clovis the first converted Merovingien king( or is it Franc King).

robert b. iadeluca
July 6, 2003 - 04:50 am
"In 357 Dion, uncle of Dionysius, poor in funds but rich in friends, recruited in mainland Greece a force of eight hundred men, and sailed for Syracuse. Landing secretly, he found the people eager to aid him. With one battle -- in which though he was not fifty, his own heroic fighting turned the tide -- he so completely defeated the army of Dionysius that the frightened youth fled to Italy.

"At this juncture, with Greek impulsiveness, the Syracusan Assembly that he had convened removed Dion from command, lest he should make himself dictator. Dion withdrew peaceably to Leontini, but the forces of Dionysius, liking this turn of events, made a sudden attack upon the popular army, and defeated it.

"The leaders who had deposed him sent appeals to Dion to hurry back and take charge. He came, won another victory, forgave the men who had opposed him, and then announced a temporary dictatorship as necessary to order. Despite the advice of his friends he refused a personal guard being 'quite ready to die rather than live perpetually on the watch against friends and foes alike.'<P:>"It was Dion's aim to establish a constitutional monarchy, to reform Syracusan life and manners on the Spartan model, to rebuild and unify the enslaved or desolate Greek cities of Sicily, and then to expel the Carthaginians from the island. But the Syracusans had set their hearts on democracy, and were no more hungry for virtue than either Dionysius.

"A friend of Dion murdered him, and chaos broke loose. Dionysius hurried home, recaptured Ortygia and the government, and ruled with the bitter cruelty of a despot deposed and restored.

"The Syracusans appealed for aid to their mother city, Corinth. The call came at a time when a Corinthian of almost legendary nobleness was waiting for a summons to heroism. Timoleon was an aristocrat who so loved liberty that when his brother Timophanes tried to make himself tyrant of Corinth, Timoleon killed him.

"Hearing of Syracuse's need, he organized a small force of volunteers, sailed to Sicily, and deployed his little band with such strategy that the royal army yielded after a brief taste of his generalship, and without killing any one of his men. Timoleon gave the humbled tyrant money enough to take himself to Corinth, where Dionysius spent the remainder of life teaching school and sometimes begging his bread.

"Timoleon re-established democracy -- tore down the fortifications that had made Ortygia a buttress of tyranny -- repulsed a Carthaginian invasion -- restored freedom and democracy in the Greek cities -- and made Sicily for a generation so peaceful and prosperous that new settlers were drawn to it from every part of the Hellenic world.

"When he died (337) all Greece looked upon him as one of the greatest of her sons."

Sounds like a soap opera or a movie. There must be a message here somewhere.

Robby

moxiect
July 6, 2003 - 07:06 am
Just to let you know, I am still here learning, now, not only about ancient history but about my Sicilian heritage!

tooki
July 6, 2003 - 09:21 am
Will someone please tell me what the difference is between "Gallia" and "Galatia?" Here is a beautiful map. It probably should be saved for the coming study of the Roman Empire, but since discussion is about barbarians and these names came up: Why are they so far apart?

MAP

Gallia is 4 and 5; Galatia is 30.

robert b. iadeluca
July 6, 2003 - 09:27 am
Moxie:--Did you know that you were part Greek?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 6, 2003 - 09:32 am
Tooki:--Someone more qualified than I will answer but I can see that Gallia is "Gaul" (later France.) I have a book in my library about expressions used by the French called "Gallicismes."

About Galatia I know nothing.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 6, 2003 - 09:49 am
"While Timoleon was restoring democracy for its last respite in ancient Sicily, Philip was destroying it on the mainland. Macedonia, despite the cultural hospitality of Archelaus, was still for the most part a barbarous country of hardy but letterless mountaineers when Philip came to the throne (359). Indeed, to the end of its career, though it used Greek as its official language, it contributed no author, or artist, or scientist, or philosopher, to the life of Greece.

"Having lived for three years with the relatives of Epaminondas in Thebes, Philip had imbibed there a modicum of culture and a wealth of military ideas. He was strong in body and will, athletic and handsome, a magnificnt animal trying, now and then, to be an Athenian gentleman.

"Like his famous son he was a man of violent temper and abounding generosity, loving battle as much, and strong drink more. Unlike Alexander he was a jovial laugher, and raised to high office a slave who amused him. he liked boys, but liked women better, and married as many of them as he could.

"For a time he tried monogamy with Olympias, the wild and beautiful Molossian princess who gave him Alexander. Later his fancy traveled, and Olympias brooded over her revenge. Most of all he liked stalwart men, who could risk their lives all day and gamble and carouse with him half the night. He was literally (before Alexander) the bravest of the brave, and left a part of himself on every battlefield.

"He had a subtle intelligence, capable of patiently awaiting his chance, and of moving resolutely through difficult means to distant ends. In diplomacy he was affable and treacherous. He broke a promise with a light heart, and was always ready to make another. He recognized no morals for governments, and looked upon lies and bribes as humane substitutes for slaghter. But he was lenient in victory, and usually gave the defeated Greeks better terms than they gve one another.

"All who met him -- except the obstinate Demosthenes -- liked him, and ranked him as the strongest and most interesting character of his time."

Your comments, please?

Robby

Bubble
July 6, 2003 - 10:39 am
I met a new comer from "Galicia" and she referred to the region that was divided with the after WWII. It was once Romania, then Hungary, on Russian border and occupied by the Germans. People there talk the threee languages perfectly.

moxiect
July 6, 2003 - 10:47 am
Robby:

The mix bag of invaders on the island of Sicily is no surprise! But the origin being Grecian was, because Catania is a port city north of Syracusa. And better still, my grandfather instilled the saying "When in Rome, do as the Romans do".

robert b. iadeluca
July 6, 2003 - 11:06 am
"Philip's government was an aristocratic monarchy in which the king's powers were limited by the duration of his superior strength of arm or mind, and by the willingness of the nobles to support him. Eight hundred feudal barons made up the 'King's companions.' They were great landowners who despised the life of cities, crowds, and books. But when, with their consent, the King announced a war, they came out of their estates physically fit and drunkenly brave.

In the army they served as cavalry, riding the sturdy horses of Macedonia and Thrace, and trained by Philip to fight in a close formation that could change its tactics at once and as one at the commander's word.

"Beside these was an infantry of rugged hunters and peasants, arrayed in 'phalanxes' -- sixteen rows of men pointing their lances over the heads -- or resting them on the shoulders -- of the rows ahead of them, making each phalanx an iron wall.

"The lance, twenty-one feet long, was weighted at the rear, so that when held aloft it projected fifteen feet forward. As each row of soldiers marched three feet before the next, the lances of the first five rows projected beyond the phalanx, and the lances of the first three rows had a greater reach than the six-foot javelin of the nearest Greek hoplite.

"The Madedonian soldier, after hurling his lance, fought with a short sword, and protected himself with a brass helmet, a coat of mail, greaves, and a lightweight shield. Behind the phalanx came a regiment of old-fashioned archers, who shot their arrows over the heads of the lancers. Then came a seige train with catapults and battering rams.

"Resolutely and patiently -- playing Frederick William I to Alexander's Frederick -- Philip drilled this army of ten thousand men into the most powerful fighting instrument that Europe had yet known."

I find it interesting that Durant uses the term "Europe." He is beginning to compare the armies of that time with the coming armies of the Western civilizations.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
July 6, 2003 - 07:38 pm

Philip of Macedon, maps of Macedonia, image of phalanx, etc.

Justin
July 6, 2003 - 10:48 pm
The Macedonian link provides a quick thumbnail sketch of the adventures of Phillip and his son Alexander and of the demise of Greece. Thank you, Mal.

robert b. iadeluca
July 7, 2003 - 03:54 am
Yes, an excellent link! Be sure to examine slowly the three maps as they show the gradual conquests of Philip and how they affected Ancient Greece.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 7, 2003 - 04:15 am
Here is a MAP which combines modern names with ancient names. It helps us to understand the oriental heritage of what we now call the Balkan states. I believe this is what some are calling the "New Europe."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 7, 2003 - 04:34 am
"The Vatican statue of the great orator, Demosthenes, is one of the masterpieces of Hellenistic realism. It is a careworn face, as if every advance of Philip had cut another furrow into the brow. The body is thin and wearied. The aspect is that of a man who is about to make a final appeal for a cause that he considers lost. The eyes reveal a restless life, and foresee a bitter death.

"His father bequeathed to him a business worth some fourteen talents ($84,000). Three executors administered the property for the boy, and squandered it so generously on themselves that when Demosthenes reached the age of twenty (363) he had to sue his guardians to recover the remains of his inheritance. He spent most of this in fitting out a trireme for the Athenian navy, and then settled down to earn his bread by writing speeches for litigants."

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
July 7, 2003 - 06:14 am

About Demosthenes. Click image to see larger picture

georgehd
July 7, 2003 - 07:53 am
Mal and Robby, thanks for the wonderful links. The one dissappointment in the Durant book are the maps.

robert b. iadeluca
July 7, 2003 - 08:01 am
George:--Let's be fair to Durant. Since his time technology advanced so well and so rapidly that we are fortunate in this discussion group to be able to supplment his excellent writing.

My eleven volumes sat on my shelf for decades. I'm glad that the fortunes of life caused me to wait until I was able to benefit from 1) the advance of technology and 2) the advantage of reading them along with all you participants rather than reading them alone.

Robby

tooki
July 7, 2003 - 08:08 am
in which Demosthenes speaks of Philip.

"Not only no Greek..., but a pestilent knave of Macedonia, whence it was never yet possible to buy a decent slave."

That must have really whowed the Greeks! Macedonia didn't even have decent slaves!

Shasta Sills
July 7, 2003 - 09:36 am
I'm still trying to imagine carrying a 21-foot lance. How much would this thing have weighed? And how much strength would it take to throw that monstrosity? I always worry about things like this.

robert b. iadeluca
July 7, 2003 - 04:03 pm
Shasta:--A lot stronger than you or I are. I would assume that the young people in those days exercised regularly and didn't regularly pull their chariots into the drive-in for a Big Baclava.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 7, 2003 - 04:37 pm
"He could compose better than he could speak, for he was weak in body and defective in articulation. Sometimes, says Plutarch, he prepared pleas for both the opposed parties to a dispute. Meanwhile, to overcome his impediments, he addressed the sea with a mouth full of pebbles, or declaimed as he ran up a hill.

"He worked hard, and his only distractions were courtesans and boys. His secretary complained, 'What can one do with Demosthenes? Everything that he has thought of for a whole year is thrown into confusion by one woman in one night.'

"After years of effort he became one of the richest lawyers at the Athenian bar, learned in technicalities, convincing in discourse, and flexible in morals. He defended the banker Phormio against precisely such charges as he had brought against his guardians, took substantial fees from private persons for introducing and pressing legislation, and never answered the accusation of his colleagues.

"At his zenith his fortune was ten times as large as that which his father had left him."

"Flexible in morals." I wonder if they had any lawyer jokes in Ancient Greece.

Robby

Justin
July 7, 2003 - 05:14 pm
The long lance was not thrown as one would a spear or a javlin. It was rested on the shoulders of the men in the front ranks and used to penetrate the enemy at a distance form the phalanx.

Justin
July 7, 2003 - 05:22 pm
His secretary complains that everything Demosthenes has thought of for whole year is thrown into confusion by a woman in one night. Hercules could not do that. It takes a woman, a wild, wild, woman to throw a man into confusion in one wild night. The Durants do write erotic stuff from time to time.

robert b. iadeluca
July 8, 2003 - 03:06 am
"Agaainst Demosthenes and Hypereides and the party of war stood Aeschines and Phocion and the party of peace. Very likely both sides were bribed, the one by Persia, the other by Philip. Both were sincerely moved by their own agitation.

"Twice Demosthenes indicted Aeschines on the charge of receiving Macedonian gold, and twice failed to convict him. Finally, however, the martial eloquence of Demosthenes, and the southward advance of Philip, persuaded the Athenians to forego for a time the distribution of the theoric fund, and to employ it in war.

"In 338 an army was hastily organized, and marched north to face the phalanxes of Philip at Boeotian Chaeronea. Sparta refused to help but Thebes, feeling Philip's fingers at her throat, sent her Sacred Band to fight beside the Athenians. Everyone of its three hundred members died on that battle field. The Athenians fought almost as bravely but they had waited too long, and were not equipped to meet so novel an army as the Macedonian. They broke and fled before the sea of lances that moved upon them, and Demosthenes fled with them. Alexander, Philip's eighteen-year old son, led the Macedonian cavalry with reckless courage and won the honors of a bitter day.

"Philip was diplomatically generous in victory. He put to death some of the anti-Macedonian leaders in Thebes, and set up his partisans there in oligarchic power. But he freed the two thousand Athenian prisoners that he had taken, and sent the charming Alexander and the judicious Antipater to offer peace on condition that Athens recognize him as the general of all Greece against the common foe. Athens, which had expected harsher terms, not only consented, but passed resolutions showering compliments upon the new Agamemnon.

"Philip convened at Corinth a synedrion, or assembly, of the Greek states, formed them (except Sparta) into a federation modeled on the Boeotian, and outlined his plans for the liberation of Asia. He was unanimously chosen commander in this enterprise. Each state pledged him men and arms, and promised that no Greek anywhere should fight against him.

"Such sacrifices were a small price to pay for his distance."

"Discretion is the better part of valor?"

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
July 8, 2003 - 04:38 am

AESCHINES

georgehd
July 8, 2003 - 05:03 am
Mal thanks for the link on Aeschines. I explored further on that site and looked up many of the Popes, who seemed to be a pretty bad lot. I had not realized that so many were poisoned or killed.

tooki
July 8, 2003 - 06:39 am
Alexander's royal, assertive and cunning nature begins to emerge.

The Battle

robert b. iadeluca
July 8, 2003 - 04:49 pm
"The unity that Greece had failed to create for itself had been achieved, but only at the point of a half-alien sword. The Peloponnesian War had proved Athens incapable of organizing Hellas. The artermath had shown Sparta incapable. The Theban hegemony in its turn had failed. The wars of the armies and the classes had worn out the city-states, and left them too weak for defense.

"Under the circumstances they were fortunate to find so reasonable a conqueror, who proposed to withdraw from the scene of his victory, and leave to the conquered a large measure of freedom.

"Indeed Philip, and Alexander after him, watchfully protected the autonomy of the federated states, lest any one of them, by absorbing others, should grow strong enough to displace Macedon. One great liberty, however, Philip took away -- the right of revolution. He was a frank conservative who considered the stability of property an indispensable stimulus to enterprise, and a necessary prop to government.

"He had laid his plans well, except for Olympias. In the end his fate was determined not by his victories in the field but by his failure with his wife. She frightened him not only by her temper but by participating in the wildest Dionysian rites.

"One night he found a snake lying beside her in bed, and was not reassured by being told that it was a god. Worse, Olympias informed him that he was not the real father of Alexander. That on the night of their wedding a thunderbolt had fallen upon her and set her afire. It was the great god Zeus-Ammon who had begotten the dashing prince.

"Discouraged by such varied competition, Philip turned his amours to other women. Olyumpias began her revenge by telling Alexander the secret of his divine paternity. One of Philip's generals, Attalus, made matters worse by proposing a toast to Philip's expected child by a second wife, as promising a 'legitimate' (i.e. completely Macedonian) heir to the throne.

"Alexander flung a goblet at his head, crying, 'Am I, then, a bastard?' Philip drew his sword against his son, but was so drunk that he could not stand. Alexander laughted at him; 'Here is a man preparing to cross from Europe into Asia, who cannot step surely from one couch to another.'

"A few months later one of Philip's officers, Pausanias, having asked redress from Philip for an insult from Attalus, and receiving no satisfaction, assassinated the King (336).

"Alexander, idolized by the army and supported by Olympias (who was suspected of having urged on Pausanias), seized the throne, overcame all opposition, and prepared to conquer the world."

Robby

tooki
July 8, 2003 - 06:52 pm
"She was a strong women totally dominated by men, and she reacted with rage and hatred."

My kinda gal!

Alexander's Sweet Mother

Malryn (Mal)
July 9, 2003 - 02:42 am

Alexander the Great

Alexander's Route

robert b. iadeluca
July 9, 2003 - 03:04 am
We will soon get to Alexander but first Durant gives us a brief look at

Letters and Arts in the Fourth Century

as Greece continues its sad decline.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 9, 2003 - 03:13 am
"Through all this turmoil literature reflected the declining virility of Greece. Lyrical poetry was no longer the passionate expression of creative individuals, but a polite exercise of salon intellectuals, a learned echo of schoolday tasks.

"Timotheus of Miletus wrote an epic, but it did not accord with an argumentative age, and remained as unpopular as his early music.

"Dramatic performances continued, but on a more modest scale and in a lower key.

"The impoverishment of the public treasury and the weakened patriotism of private wealth reduced the splendor and significance of the chcorus. More and more the dramatists contented themselves with unrelated musical intermezzi in place of choruses organically united with the play.

"The name of the choragus disappeared from public notice, then the name of the poet. Only the name of the actor remained. The drama became less and less a poem, more and more a histrionic exhibition. It was an era of great actors and small dramatists.

"Greek tragedy had been built upon religion and mythology, and required some faith and piety in its auditors. It naturally faded away in the twilight of the gods."

Religion fades away and art with it? Is excellent art built on the shoulders of religion?

Robby

tooki
July 9, 2003 - 06:32 am
No, no, a thousant times no! Besides you beg the question. What do you mean by "excellent art?" You are implying "un-excellent art is non-religious." It's sort of like "Do you still beat your wife."

Malryn (Mal)
July 9, 2003 - 07:49 am

Throughout history the two primary themes of artwork were religion and war, the two principal badges of civilizations, so to speak. I have often thought about what art would have been like without subsidization by religions. Imagine a landscape without churches, temples, pagodas, mosques and other places of worship. No Vatican, no Sistine Chapel, none of those beautifully painted madonnas, no Pieta. Religions have kept artists in shoes and roofs over their heads for a long time. Michelangelo didn't paint that ceiling for nothing, you know, or build those statues as a generous-spirited volunteer, either.

In Ancient Greece art was personified by buildings, statuary and plays. Without religion as a theme and providing money to pay for what was written and built, of course, the artwork would diminish or change. We have to remember that religions were and are not just inspiration for some artwork, they were and are the backers and subsidizers of it.

I just found an amazing image of the entire ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, which doesn't belong in this discussion, but it's so extraordinary and exenplifies so well what income from religions have done for art that I'm posting it below.


Layout of the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel

tooki
July 9, 2003 - 08:53 am
We have no idea what artists would have painted, sculpted, modeled, etc. if religion wasn't there to pay the bills. Artists for most of history (until they became mad geniuses) created what their patrons wanted. Their patrons wanted what the society, culture approved of: religious themed art. Now that artists are relatively free of the demands of religion they spent their hard earned freedom cursing religion. I.e., "Christ In A Bottle," and "Black Virgin," being current examples.

Great schematic map. However, clicking on sections gives me "Forbidden." Any way to get in?

Malryn (Mal)
July 9, 2003 - 09:27 am

TOOKI, scroll down to the bottom of the page and click the link that says, "Go to the large-scale reproductions of Ceiling panels."

robert b. iadeluca
July 9, 2003 - 11:31 am
"Comedy took over something of the subtlety, refinement, and subject matter of the Euripidean stage. This Middle Comedy (400-323) lost its taste or courage for political satire precisely when politics most needed a 'candid friend.' Possibly such satire was forbidden or the audience was weary of politics now that Athens was ruled by second-rate men.

"The general retirement of the fourth-century Greek from public to private life inclined his interest from affairs of state to those of the home and the heart. The comedy of manners appeared. Love began to dominate the scene, and not always by its virtue. The ladies of the demimonde mingled on the boards with fishwives, cooks, and bewildered philosophers -- though the honor of the protagonists and the dramatist was saved by a marriage at the end.

"These plays were not coarsened by Aristophanes' vulgarity and burlesque, but neither were they vitalized by his exuberance and his imagination. We know the names, and have none of the words, of thirty-nine poets of the Middle Comedy. But we may judge from their fragments that they did not write for the ages. Alexis of Thurii wrote 245 plays. Antiphanes 260.

"They made hay while the sun shone, and died with its setting."

Are we talking about a sort of commercial art?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 9, 2003 - 11:47 am
Click HERE to see the "comedy" and "tragedy" masks.

Robby

Shasta Sills
July 9, 2003 - 01:01 pm
Art reflects the society that produces it. When religion dominated human thinking, artists painted religious art. When religion became less dominant, artists painted portraits, landscapes, abstract art, etc. I was surprised to see how much white Michelangelo used in the Sistine ceiling. Never having seen the restored paintings, I didn't expect to see all that white, or such bright colors.

robert b. iadeluca
July 9, 2003 - 02:53 pm
"The rise of industry and trade turned men's minds to realism and practicality, and the schools that once had taught the poems of Homer now trained their pupils in rhetoric. Isacus, Lycurgus, Hypereides, Demades, Deinarchus, Aeschines, Demosthenes were orator-politicians, leaders of political factions, master of what the Germans have called the Advokateurrepublik.

"Similar men appeared in the democratic interludes of Syracuse. The oligarchic states did not suffer them. The Athenian orators were clear and vigorous in language, averse to ornate eloquence, capable, now and then, of noble patriotic flights, and given to such dishonesty of argument and abusiveness of speech as would not be tolerated even in a modern campaign.

"The heterogeneous quality of the Athenian Assembly and the popular courts had a debasing as well as a stimulating effect upon Greek oratory, and through it upon Greek literature. The Athenian citizen enjoyed bouts of ortorical invective almost as much as he enjoyed a prize fight. When a duel was expected between such word warriors as Aeschines and Demosthenes, men came from distant village and foreigh states to hear them. Often the appeal was to pride and prejudice.

"Plato, who hated oratory as the poison that was killing democracy, defined rhetoric as the art of governing men by addressing their feelings and passions."

So it was not so much what was said as how it was said? Do you folks agree with Plato that "oratory kills democracy?" Any orators around these days?

Robby

tooki
July 9, 2003 - 08:48 pm
If rhetoric is using language effectively and persuasively, and oratory is eloquence or skill in public speaking, I don't see much difference between them. Maybe it's the content.

Mal, got it! Great pics. I seem to recall there was a great to do about the amount of white (when it was restored). It was the view of many restorers that too much paint had been removed along with the soot and grime of centuries. Looking at these pictures I tend to agree. The white in many cases harshly outlines the modeled figures. Surely he had more background.

Justin
July 9, 2003 - 11:22 pm
Yes, Excellent art was built on the shoulders of religion. Excellent art has also been produced on the shoulders of lay patrons. The same may be said of l'arte pour l'arte. However, the Church is a special case. It's great need for teaching images fostered the arts and some great works were produced. Not only did the clerics provide funds but they encouraged education in the arts as well and religion provided a great variety of subject matter to attract artists. The contribution of religion to the Arts is enormous.

Many great works were produced in the lay patronage period. However, there is no question that the size of the market was greatly reduced when lay patronage rose to prominance. The "starving artist" appeared enough to be a cliche. Today, commercialism has greatly increased the need for artists and schools are once again, fully enrolled, active, and productive.

Justin
July 9, 2003 - 11:54 pm
Tooki: You're on the right track, in my judgement. Rhetoric is using language effectively and persuasively. Oratory is eloquence in public speaking. One is concerned with content, the other with delivery.

Oratory appears from time to time. Douglas was considered an orator in the Licoln-Douglas debates. Lincoln's Gettysburg address was oratory although not considered such at the time. Some of FDR's stuff was oratory and Kennedy's Inaugural was the stuff of oratory. Eloquence is what makes it oratory.

Most effective public speakers today strive for conversational speech and conversation is not the stuff of eloquence but it is convincing. The fireside chats of FDR are an example. Bill Clinton was a skillful conversational speaker. The British Prime Minister, Tony Blair uses that technique effectively.

robert b. iadeluca
July 10, 2003 - 03:01 am
"The historic climax of Greek oratory came in 330. Six years before, Cresiphon had carried througha the Council a preliminary proposal to award Demosthenes a crown or wreath in appreciation not only of his statesmanship but of his many financial gifts to the state. To keep the honor fromn his rival, Aeschines indicted Cresiphon on the ground (technically correct) of having introduced an unconstitutional proposal.

"The case of Cresiphon, repeatedly postponed, finally came to trial before a jury of five hundred citizens. It was, of course, a cause celebre. All who could came, even from afar, to hear it. In effect the greatest of Athenian orators was fighting for his good name and his political life.

"Aeschines spent little time attacking Cresiphon, but turned his assault upon the character and career of Demosthenes, who replied in kind with his famous speech On the Crown.

"Every line of the two orations still vibrates with excitmement, and is hot with the hatred of enemies brought face to face in war. Demosthenes, knowing that offense is better than defense, charged that Philip had chosen the most corruptible of the orators as his mouth pieces in Athens.

"It was a powerful speech. Not a model of order and courtesy, but so eloquent with passion that the jury acquitted Cresiphon by a vote of five to one.<>P>In the following year the Assembly voted Demosthenes the disputed crown. Aeschines, unable to pay the fine that was automatically levied upon so unsuccessful a persecution, fled to Rhodes, where he made a precarious living by teaching rhetoric.

"An old tradition says that Demosthenes sent him money to alleviate his poverty."

Comments?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
July 10, 2003 - 03:45 am

All speech is vain and empty unless it be accompanied by action.

Demosthenes

tooki
July 10, 2003 - 06:05 am
and "his despairing cry for freedom."

Demosthenes seemed blind to how Greece could be united to counter effectively the military power of the new national state which was so greater than the power of any single city-state. It is possible that his opponents might have united Greece for such a battle.

This thought emphasizes the power of oratory over an unruly Assembly. I suppose Hitler needs to be mentioned. The famous movie by the German woman film maker about Hitler illustrated this point. (Ok, you guys. Who was she, and what was the name of the film? If no one comes up with it I'll waste the whole day looking for it!)

tooki
July 10, 2003 - 08:05 am
The movie that featured Hitler as orator was Leni Riefenstahl's, "Triumph of the Will," 1935. Still available in many formats, it is considered the most successful propaganda movie ever filmed. The "Architectural Direction" is by Albert Speer. Riefenstalh died in the last couple of years, and to her end maintained her innocence of Hitler's aims. Here is a list of sites should anyone be interested in pursuing it furthur. I find the whole subject - now that I brought it up - depressing.

Hilter As Orator

robert b. iadeluca
July 10, 2003 - 08:09 am
A philosophical question: Which is worse -- a speaker with little or no oratorical ability who does not stimulate us to anything -- or an orator who moves us on to acts of evil?

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
July 10, 2003 - 11:05 am
"Which is worse -- a speaker with little or no oratorical ability who does not stimulate us to anything -- or an orator who moves us on to acts of evil?"

I don’t know which is worse, a politician stimulating prospective voters with empty promises, or an orator who moves people to acts of evilness, something that is already in them. An evil orator knows this and can win people to his cause.

People react to what makes them vibrate. They vibrate to the sound of music, to the words of an orator, to the sight of beauty in all its form. They vibrate looking at the sky, at shimmering water, violent storms. Emotions moves people more than reason because they create more vibrations. Logic and emotion are opposites and when there is a choice, the emotion will win over the logic. That is the reason why an evil orator who creates emotions can move crowds to acts of evil in spite of their better judgment.

Eloïse

Malryn (Mal)
July 10, 2003 - 01:07 pm

Emotion vs Reason.

When people use emotion to make a decision rather than thinking it out and using reason, there can be disaster. The speaker who uses words to stimulate a crowd to an emotional reaction is the one who is evil, not the people in the crowd.

If he or she says to them, "If you vote for him the economy will be in big trouble and you'll all lose your jobs" touches on the lifeblood of his audience. That audience must yell out, "How? Tell me how! Show me some facts and prove what you say!"

Rarely do I accept what someone says in a speech without questioning what he or she says. I and the people around me are the determining factors when it comes to a decision, not the person with the golden voice and elegant elocution who stands alone. If people in a democracy would understand this and not blindly believe what the speaker says is the right thing to do, there would be far fewer problems than there are. This is a speech. Is anyone listening?

Mal

Shasta Sills
July 10, 2003 - 01:46 pm
Well, if political rhetoric could kill a democracy, as Plato thought, the U.S. would be defunct by now. Nobody is deluged with more rhetoric than Americans, and we're still a democracy. I think we hear so much of it that we learn to shield ourselves from most of it.

Malryn (Mal)
July 10, 2003 - 02:28 pm

Shasta, I could list plenty of examples where rhetoric has damaged this democracy by swaying the way people vote, but I'll be "politically correct" and keep them to myself.

Mal

Shasta Sills
July 10, 2003 - 02:50 pm
Mal, I can think of some too, but we're still here. I think it's the nature of a democracy that it has to withstand a lot of bombardment.

Percivel
July 10, 2003 - 05:41 pm
>Most of us have read in the Bible of the close association of banking, money changing, and the temple but only recently through Our Oriental Heritage and The Life of Greece did I come to realize that this connection existed for centuries in many oriental cultures.<<


We tend to forget that the clergy was one of the few sources of literacy. Later, during the middle ages, the priest had great power merely becaouse he could read and write. Not sure, but think that even mathmatics were reserved to the clergy.

The clergy did not labor in the physical sense, so had much more time to be educated and erbane.

robert b. iadeluca
July 10, 2003 - 05:41 pm
"The highest excellence of the fourth century lay not in literature but in philosophy and art. In art, as in politics, the individual liberated himself from the temple, the state, the tradition, and the school.

"As patriotic devotion yielded to private loyalties, architecture took on a more modest scale, and became increasingly secular. The great choral forms of music and dance made way for private performances by professionals. Painting and sculpture continued to adorn public buildings with the representation of gods or noble human types, but at the same time they entered upon that service and portrayal of living individuals which characterized the succeeding age.

"Where cities could still afford to patronize art on a national scale it was because they had not been deepoly touched by war or, like Syracuse, had found in natural resources and governmental order the means of a rapid recovery."

"In this period of slow decline patriotic devotion yielded to private loyalites." Hm-m-m-m.

Robby

Percivel
July 10, 2003 - 05:56 pm
The phalanx was the shaape of an isosolese triange with the base facing the enemy. It was moble and was primarily used against cavalry. The spears carried were not for throwing. Rather the butt of the spear was planted in the ground when the enemby charged. The first row had shorter spears and the succeeding rows had longer and longer spears. In effect, the phalanx showed a wall of sharp spears to the enemy.

A charging horse would skewer itself upon those spears. A technical manuever could change the direction of the spears. One of the sides became the base line after completing a the maneuver.

robert b. iadeluca
July 10, 2003 - 06:24 pm
Thanks, Percivel. It's easy to visualize as you describe it.

Robby

Justin
July 10, 2003 - 11:15 pm
Art of the fourth century moved away from the idealism of the Golden Age and in the direction of realism. Sculptural forms included the depiction of human movement, under natural drapes. Portraiture appeared. Demosthenes can be seen in the Vatican, today. I think he is in the Belvedere, with Augustus. These newer and more realistic forms are called Hellenistic.

Malryn (Mal)
July 11, 2003 - 05:27 am

Hellenistic Art

tooki
July 11, 2003 - 06:19 am
and other absurdities. Here is a page of Aphrodites from different centuries illustrating the changes Justin noted. Click on the image to read details, including when it was created.

Aphrodites

Malryn (Mal)
July 11, 2003 - 08:45 pm

Robby:- I hope you're all right. I've missed you today. You must be at a conference or something. Before I went to Duke Hospital today for a frustrating and unsatisfactory meeting with an orthopedist, I did some fishing for Greek orators and orations, but came up with not even a tiny goldfish. Instead, I found a lovely Greek song and put it on a web page. Click the link below. It's a long download, but worth the wait.

Greek music -- Rindineddha

Malryn (Mal)
July 11, 2003 - 09:00 pm
These are the translated words of the above song.
The narrator is talking to a swallow


Aremu rindineddha



I've been asking you about my mother
The most beloved
Who is expecting me back for so long,
As long as it's been since she has seen me
I've been asking you about my father
And for the whole of the neighborhood
If only you could speak,
How much you would have told me!
I sit before the sea,
I look at you,
You just go up, then down
And just touch upon the water
But you are not giving me any answers
To the things I'm asking you of.
You just go up, then down
And just touch upon the water."

Justin
July 12, 2003 - 12:08 am
The Hermes carrying the ram on his shoulders (in the link in 412)prefigures the images of Christ the Good Shepherd found on the walls of catecombs in Rome and on sarcophagi in fourth century CE , Rome.The Good Shepherd Sarcophagus from the Catecomb of Praetextus, Rome is a good example. It is in Museo del Laterano, Rome. We are beginning to find some of the sources for Christian imagery as we advance in Greek art to and through Hellenism. This Good Shepherd is among the early ones and it should be observed. There will be more.

robert b. iadeluca
July 12, 2003 - 04:38 am
The fourth century distinguished itslf in terra-cotta statuettes. Boentian Tanagra made its name synonumous with little figures in baked and unglazed clay, cast in generalized types but then molded and painted by hand into a thousand individual shapes quick with the color and variety of common life.

"As in earlier centuries, painting was called in to aid other arts. Now it acquired an independent status and dignity, and its masters received commissions from all the Greek world. Pamphilus of Amphipolis, who taught Apelles, refused to take any pupil for less than twelve years, and charged $6000 for the course.

"Mnason, dictator of Locrin Elatea, paid ten minas for each of the hundred figures in a battle scene by Aristides of Thebes, making $100,000 for one painting. The same enthusiast gave Asclepiodorus $360,000 for a panel of the twelve major Olympians.

"Lucullus paid $12,000 for a copy of the portrait that Pausias of Sicyon had painted of Menander's mistress Glycera. A picture by Apelles, says Pliny, sold for a sum equal to the measures of whole cities.

"Apelles meanwhile had captured the plaudits of the Greek world by his painting of Aphrodite Anadyomene -- i.e. Aphrodite rising from the sea.

"Alexander sent for him, and sat for many portraits. The young conqueror was not satisfied with the representation of his horse Bucephalus in one of these pictures, and had the animal brought closer to the panel for comparison. Bucephalus, looking at the picture, whinnied. Whereupon Apelles remarked, 'Your Majesty's horse seems to know more about painting than you do.'"

Could one say that Ancient Greek appreciation of art is a measure of their degree of civilization?

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
July 12, 2003 - 05:11 am
IMO a degree of civilization is difficult to measure by artistic achievement. Is it art which measures it? or the capacity of nations to arrive at a reasonable entente regarding territory, religion and economy. If human beings want to become more civilized, should not tolerence replace hate?

As long as there are wars, civilization cannot progress because the recurring destruction of accomplished nations like Ancient Greece, for instance, moves civilization back and the progress that was made is almost totally erased for centuries to come.

robert b. iadeluca
July 12, 2003 - 05:14 am
Those participants who have been enjoying this ongoing discussion about Ancient Greece might want to click onto THIS and share a smile.

Robby

tooki
July 12, 2003 - 05:47 am
It began with Chaos and look where it ended: on the pages of the NYT.

And crossword solvers DO use aides. But only when no one is looking.

tooki
July 12, 2003 - 05:55 am
Bucephalus. Here's a page of great images. Too many good ones to make a selection.

Great Horses

The first one tells the story of Alexander taming Bucephalus, which means Oxhead.

Malryn (Mal)
July 12, 2003 - 06:18 am

Tooki, forgive me, but posting a page from Google's image search files is the lazy woman's way to do it!

I'd love to see the Greek genealogy book mentioned in the article you posted, Robby. I wonder if the University of North Carolina professor who helped author, Jon O. Newman, is here in Chapel Hill?





"Apelles was a Greek painter, one of the most celebrated of antiquity. No trace of his work, which was praised for its startling realism, now remains. He was court artist to Philip II of Macedon and then to Alexander the Great, whose portrait Apelles alone was allowed to paint.

"Apelles studied in the studio of the Greek painter Pamphilos at Sicyon, near Corinth, one of the centres of Greek painting. Realism and an ability to convey three-dimensional effect are suggested by anecdote thus in his Alexander Wielding a Thunderbolt the hand, according to the Roman writer Pliny, seemed to come out of the picture. His Aphrodite Anadyomene, showing Venus rising from the sea and wringing her wet hair, was painted for the sanctuary of Aesculapius on the island of Cos. The Roman emperor Augustus later bought it from the island and took it to Rome. Apelles wrote a treatise on painting, which has also disappeared, and was noted for his skill in using only four pigments white, yellow, red, and black."
Apelles' method for using pigments is not uncommon now. When I began painting I used only red, yellow and blue. By mixing them, one with another, or layering them, it is possible to get an amazing number of shades and colors.

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
July 12, 2003 - 06:47 am

Dancing Women of Tanagra

Dionysius and Ariadne

Dionysius discovers Ariadne at Naxos. Signed by Pamphilos

robert b. iadeluca
July 12, 2003 - 06:57 am
"The sculptural master piece of the period was the great masusoleum dedicated to King Mausolus of Halicarnassus. Nominally a satrap of Persia, Mausolus had extended his personal sway over Caria and parts of Ionia and Lycia.

"When he died (353), his devoted sister and wife, Artemisia, held a famous oratorical contest in his honor, and summoned the best artists of Greece to collaborate upon a tomb that should be a fitting memorial to his genius. But her grief over the death of Mausolus weakened her, and she died two years after him, before she could see the completed monument that was to give a word to every Western tongue.

"Some of the finest sculptural remains of the fourth century are anonymous. To this period, so far as we can make out, belong most of the Niobid figures that came to Rome from Asia Minor in the days of Augustus, and are now scattered among the museums of Europe."

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
July 12, 2003 - 07:01 am

Pausias
Pausias used the encaustic method of painting.
"Encaustic is a painting technique which combines color pigment with hot wax and resin. This mixture of materials is applied in its semi-liquid form to the panel (or other support) as paint. Then a heating device is sometimes exposed to the surface to reheat the wax and to eliminate brushstrokes or spatula marks. This step of the procedure is called 'burning in'.

"As the term's etymology suggests, the ever-innovative ancient Greeks invented it in their glory days around the 4th century B.C. But as art history students know, the Egyptians--strongly influenced by the taste-making Greeks--popularized the technique by using it for their extraordinarily life-like mummy portraits in the period from the 1st century B.C. through the 3rd century A.D.

"This medium is not easy to use--especially for contemporary painters who are accustomed to the ease of manipulating acrylic paints. However, encaustic's advocates tout its rich, tactile texture, light-absorbing depth and beeswax fragrance. Encaustic gives a surface that is the antithesis of 'slick'."

robert b. iadeluca
July 12, 2003 - 07:09 am
Eloise and I will both be at the Big Senior Net Bash in Calgary, Alberta, from Aug. 14 to Aug. 17. There is still time to register and attend. Those participants here who are interested in attending can obtain more information by clicking HERE.

Malryn (Mal)
July 12, 2003 - 07:10 am

DYING NIOBID

robert b. iadeluca
July 12, 2003 - 07:10 am
Eloise and I will both be at the Big Senior Net Bash in Calgary, Alberta, from Aug. 14 to Aug. 17. There is still time to register and attend. Those participants here who are interested in attending can obtain more information by clicking HERE.

Malryn (Mal)
July 12, 2003 - 07:13 am

Two WREX writers are going to the Calgary Bash -- Gladys Barry and Nellie Vrolyk. I wish I could go, too.

My life and times are revolving around getting up out of this wheelchair and walking right now, so I'll be holding the fort right here in The Story of Civilization, Volume II.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
July 12, 2003 - 07:14 am
Mal, that sculpture is breathtakingly beautiful!

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
July 12, 2003 - 07:18 am

Yes, it is, Robby. Here's another view.
Another view of the DYING NIOBID

Éloïse De Pelteau
July 12, 2003 - 07:43 am
BRW Robby, If you promise to clarify the mysteries of Greek Mythology for me in Calgary, I promise I will try to understand it. Your NYT article leaves room for doubt as to which Greek god was real and which was imaginary.

robert b. iadeluca
July 12, 2003 - 07:49 am
Eloise:--Another NY Times article posted in the discussion, "When Religion Becomes Evil," poses the question of which god of any culture, Ancient Greek or otherwise, is real or imaginary.

Robby

depfran
July 12, 2003 - 07:51 am
Maman, Thank you, I couldn't have said it better myself.

Françoise

Éloïse De Pelteau
July 12, 2003 - 08:12 am
Françoise - [[[[HUGS]]]]

Shasta Sills
July 12, 2003 - 08:56 am
My problem with crossword puzzles is not the Greek gods, but the rock stars. I never heard of a single one of them. I guess that means I'm living in the past. I've always loved the story of Bucephalus, who whinnied when he saw his own portrait. Smart horse.

Mal, red, blue, and yellow are the primary colors. All other colors are made from these colors. I was listening to a tape about particle physics, and the lecturer said there are particles named red, blue, and green, because these are primary colors. I thought, if this guy thinks green is a primary color, I wonder if he's got the rest of this stuff right. But particle physics is such a slushy subject, one man's guess is as good as the next one's.

robert b. iadeluca
July 12, 2003 - 09:49 am
And now that area of study for which Ancient Greece is renowned --

The Zenith of Philosophy

robert b. iadeluca
July 12, 2003 - 10:04 am
"Compared with the bold advance of the fifth century, and the revolutionary achievments of the third, science in the fourth century contented itself with recording its accumulations.

"Xenocrates wrote a history of geometry -- Theophrastus a history of natural philosophy -- Menon a history of medicine -- Eudernus histories of arithmetic, geometry, and astronomy.

"The problems of religion, morals, and politics appearing to be more vital and pressing than the problems of nature, men turned with Socrates from the objective study of the material world to a consideration of the soul and the state."

"Plato loved mathematics, dipped his philosophy into it deeply, dedicated the Academy to it, almost, in Suracuse, gave a kingdom for it. But arithmetic was for him a half-mystical theory of number. Geometry was not a measuring of the earth, it was a discipline of pure reason, a portal to the mind of God. Plutarch tells of Plato's 'indignation' at Eudoxus and Archytas for carrying on experiments in mechanics, 'as the mere corruption and annihilation of the one good of geometry, which was thus shamefully turning its back upon the unembodied objects of pure intelligence to recur to sensation, and to ask help from matter.'

"In this way, Plutarch continues, 'Mechanics came to be separated from geometry, and repudiated or neglected by philosophers, took its place as a militry art.

"Nevertheless, in his own abstrct way, Plato served mathematics well. He redefined the point as the beginning of a 'line' -- formulated a rule for finding square numbers that are the sum of two squares -- and invented or developed mathematical analysis -- i.e. the proof or disproof of a proposition by considering the results that follow from assuming it. The reductio ad absurdum is one form of this method.

"The emphasis on mathematics, in the curriculum of the Academy, helped the science if only by training such creative pupils as Eudoxus of Cnidus and Heracleides of Pontus."

Any comments as we move into Philosophy in the Fourth Century?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
July 12, 2003 - 03:07 pm

I'm in way over my head when I try to understand the formulae on the page about Eudoxus I'm linking here, but for the first time I think the idea that science has been trying since the beginning to prove answers to the same questions religions and philosophy ask has really penetrated my brain.
"Plato considered mathematical abstractions to be the highest form of thought of which humans were capable. Accordingly, he had the following decree inscribed over the entrance to the Academy in Athens: 'Let no one ignorant of mathematics enter here.' "



"The British philospher and mathematician Alfred North Whitehead once declared that all of Western philosophy consists of footnotes to Plato."

EUDOXUS and mathematics

Heracleides of Pontus (b. c 388 BC)

" 'The stars of Hermes and Aphrodite make their retrograde motions and retardations about the rays of the Sun, forming by their courses a wreath or crown with the Sun at its centre.' – same model proposed 2000 years later by Tycho Brahe. Earth rotates."

robert b. iadeluca
July 12, 2003 - 04:25 pm
"If it was a middling age in science, the fourth century was the heyday of philosophy. The early thinkers had propounded vague cosmologies. The Sophists had doubted everything but rhetoric. Socrates had raised a thousand questions and answered none.

"Now all the seeds that had been planted in two hundred years sprouted into great systems of metaphysical, ethical, and political speculation. Athens, too poor to maintain its state medical service, nevertheless opened private universities that made it, as Isocrates said, the 'school of Hellas,' the intellectual capital and arbiter of Greece.

"Having weakened the old religion, the philosophers struggled to find in nature and reason some substitute for it as a prop of morals and a guide to life."

The "old" religion? Reason as a substitute? Is this what these days would be called the "New Age?"

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
July 12, 2003 - 04:37 pm

I suppose it could be, Robby, but from my exploration of the New Age movement here in the United States, I see a difference from what happened in Greece. Much of New Age thinking here is metaphysical and religious -- religion not based on reason with just another name.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
July 13, 2003 - 03:56 am
Let us now examine

PLATO

first -- as The Teacher.

robert b. iadeluca
July 13, 2003 - 04:01 am
"Plato was moved by the Cynic ideal. In the second book of the Republic he describes with relish and sympathy a communistic and naturalistic Utopia. He rejects it, and goes on to portray a 'second-best' state. But when he comes to picture his philosopher-kings, we find the Cynic dream -- of men without property and without wives, dedicated to plain living and high philosophy -- capturing the citadel of the finest imagination in Greek history. Plato's plan for a communistic aristocracy was the brilliant endeavor of a rich conservative to reconcile his scorn of democracy with the radical idealism of his time."

Could this be what Lenin and Marx had in mind? Might they have read Plato?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
July 13, 2003 - 04:22 am

The Republic by Plato (text)

robert b. iadeluca
July 13, 2003 - 05:21 am
"Plato came of a family so ancient that on his mother's side his pedigree went back to Solon, and on his father's side to the early kings of Athens, even to Poseidon, god of the sea. His mother was the sister of Charmides and the niece of Critias, so that opposition to democracy was almost in his blood.

"Named Aristocles -- 'best and renowned' -- the youth distinguished himself in almost every field. He excelled in the study of music, mathematics, rhetoric, and poetry. He charmed the women, and doubtless the men, with his good looks. He wrestled at the Isthmian games, and was nicknamed Platon, or broad, because of his robust frame. He fought in three battles, and won a prize for bravery.

"He wrote epigrams, amorous verses, and a tragic tetralogy. He was hesitating between poetry and politics as a career when, at the age of twenty, he succumbed to the fascination of Socrates. He must have known him before, since the great gadfly had long been a friend of his uncle Charmides. Now he could understand Socrates' teaching, and enjoy the sight of the old man tossing ideas, like an acrobat, into the air, and impaling them on the prongs of his questioning. He burned his poems, forgot Euripides, athletics, and women, and followed the master as if under an hypnotic spell.

"Perhaps he took notes every day, feeling with an artist's sensitivity the dramatic possibilities of this frotesque and lovable Silenus."

Perhaps a scientist might say that he was genetically pre-disposed to being a great man.

Robby

georgehd
July 13, 2003 - 06:51 am
Imagine my surprise when Sunday Morning (CBS) had a section on the revival of classic Greek gowns for women. There is a current exhibition at the Met in New York and one can glimpse at how a Greek goddess should look today. I am afraid that all the models are tall and thin; but one can dream. Go to the special on line section for Goddess. It is very interesting.

http://www.metmuseum.org/special/se_event.asp?OccurrenceId={9B8FB8DB-AE97-11D6-945F-00902786BF44}&HomePageLink=special_c3a

robert b. iadeluca
July 13, 2003 - 06:57 am
A very interesting link, George. Isn't it wonderful when those of us participating here can read or see something about Ancient Greece and say -- I know him! I know her! I know that event!

Robby

georgehd
July 13, 2003 - 07:02 am
Robby, I am glad you enjoyed the site. I am continuing to explore it. But there is another section at the Met site that should be of interest to all of us. A time line on the development of art (with a section on Greece of course.) One could spend weeks exploring the material on Greece at this site. This has to be one of the outstanding web sites that I have found.

http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/splash.htm

robert b. iadeluca
July 13, 2003 - 07:09 am
"Then, when Plato was twenty-three, came the tory revolution of 404, led by his own relatives -- the tense days of the oligarchic terror -- and the brave defiance of the Thirty by Socrates -- the trial and death of Socrates. All the world seemed to collapse about the once carefree youth, and he fled from Athens as if it were a haunted city.

"He found some comfort at Megara in the home of Eucleides, and then at Cyrene, perhaps with Aristippus. Thence he appears to have gone to Egypt and studied the mathematical historical lore of the of the priests.

"About 395 he was back in Athens, and a year later fought for the city at Corinth. About 387 he set forth again, studied the Pythagorean philosophy with Archytas at Taras and with Timaeus at Locri, passed over to Sicily to see Mt. Etna -- formed a friendship with Dion of Syracuse -- was introduced to Dionysius I -- was sold into slavery -- and was back safe in Athens in 386.

"With the three thousand drachmas raised to reimburse his ransomer, and which Anniceris refused, Plato's friends now bought for him a suburban recreation grove named from its local god Academus.

"There Plato founded the university that was destined to be the intellectual center of Greece for nine hundred years."

Now there's a rich life! Riches to rags and back to riches again. Did anyone here know he had been a slave?

Robby

tooki
July 13, 2003 - 08:47 am
The site below gives a synopsis of a 35 page essay, "Freud, A Socratic Statesman." I think the snyopsis, at least, is worth reading because it points out the continuing vitality of the thoughts of two historic creative minds. The 35 page essay is interesting, but it becomes quite scholarly.

Plato and Freud

There is a link to the essay.

Malryn (Mal)
July 13, 2003 - 08:48 am

PLATO born about 427BC, died 347BC

Greek philosopher.



Plato (following Socrates) argued that men and women have the same virtues, although usually present in different amounts.



Reason is the virtue needed for government, so a woman whose reason is strongly developed is as acceptable a candidate for the governing class as a man with similarly developed reason. This argument has led some commentators to consider Plato an early founder of feminist theory. Compare with Platos' pupil, Aristotle


ARISTOTLE born about 384BC, died 322BC

Greek philosopher.



Aristotle argued that men and women have different kinds of reason. A man's reason fits him for government, a women's reason fits her for domestic life.

robert b. iadeluca
July 13, 2003 - 09:14 am
"The Academy was technically a religious fraternity, or thiasos, dedicated to the worship of the Muses. The students paid no fees, but as they came for the most part from upper-class families, their parents could be expected to make substantial donations to the institution.

"The comic poets of the time satirized the students as affected in their manners and overnice in their dress -- with elegant caps and canes, and a short cloak or academic gown -- so old are the manners of Eton, and the black robes of scholarship. Women were admitted to the student body, for Plato remained to this extent a radical, that he was an ardent feminist.

"The chief studies were mathematics and philosophy. Over the portal was a warning inscription -- medeis ageometretos eisito -- 'Let no one without geometry enter here.' Perhaps a considerable measure of mathematics formed a requirement for admission.

"Most of the mathematical advances of the fourth century were made by men who had studied in the Academy. The mathematical course included arithmetic (theory of number), advanced geometry, 'spheric' (astronomy), 'music' (probably including literature and history,) law, and philosophy.

"Moral and political philosophy came last."

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
July 13, 2003 - 09:59 am

Plato's Academy

Interactive, Intramural Map of Athens -- Plato's, Socrate's time

robert b. iadeluca
July 13, 2003 - 02:26 pm
We have been discussing Plato, the Teacher. We now move on to --

Plato, the Artist.

robert b. iadeluca
July 13, 2003 - 02:34 pm
"Plato did not pretend to give accurate accounts of conversations held thirty or fifty years before, nor even to keep his references consistent. Gorgias, as well as Socrates, was astounded to hear the words that the young dramatist-philosopher had put into his mouth.

"The Dialoges were written independently of one another, and perhaps at long intervals. We must not be shocked by slips of memory, much less by changes of view. There is no design unifying the whole, except as the continuing search of a visibly developing mind for a truth which it never finds.

"The Dialogues are cleverly and yet poorly constructed. They vivify the drama of ideas, and build up a coherent and affectionate portrait of Socrates. But they seldom achieve unity or continuity. They often wander from subject to subject, and they are frequently cast into a clumsily indirect mood by being presented as narrative reports, by one man, of other men's conversations. Socrates tells us that he has 'a wretched memory,' and then recites to a friend, verbatim, fifty-four pages of a discussion which he had carried on in his youth with Protagoras."

But this is what college students everywhere study.

Robby

Justin
July 13, 2003 - 10:13 pm
I was unaware that Plato had been a slave, had been ransomed and returned to Athens by friends.

robert b. iadeluca
July 14, 2003 - 04:40 am
And now --

Plato, the Metaphysician

robert b. iadeluca
July 14, 2003 - 04:47 am
"There is no system in Plato, and if here, for order's sake, his ideas are summarized under the classic heads of logic, metaphysics, ethics, esthetics, and politics, it should be remembered that Plato himself was too intense a poet to shackle his thought in a frame.

"Because he is a poet, he has most difficulty with logic. He wanders about seeking definitions, and loses his way in perilous analogies. Nevertheless he makes a beginning. He examines the nature of language, and derives it from imitative sound. He discusses analysis and synthesis, analogies and fallacies. He accepts induction, but prefers deduction. He creates, even in these popular dialogues, technical terms -- essence, power, action, passion, generation -- which will be useful to later philosophy.

"He names five of the ten 'categories' that will make up part of Aristotle's fame. He rejects the Sophist view that the senses are the best test of truth -- that the individual 'man is the measure of all things.'

"If that were so, he argues, any man's, any sleeper's, any madman's, any baboon's report of the world would be as good as any other."

Too deep?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
July 14, 2003 - 05:18 am
Robby, it occurred to me after reading your post that Plato was a seeker, not someone who would give answers. I typed "Plato seeker" into Google and came up with this from HERE:

"Plato, like his master Socrates, was primarily a seeker, a dialectical thinker, rather than a system-builder who believed he had all the answers."
"Dialectics- A method of argument or exposition that systematically weighs contradictory facts or ideas with a view to the resolution of their real or apparent contradictions.

"The contradiction between two conflicting forces viewed as the determining factor in their continuing interaction."

robert b. iadeluca
July 14, 2003 - 05:32 am
I wonder how many of us, like Plato, reflect (perhaps without our realizing it) the approach to life of our teachers.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
July 14, 2003 - 05:49 am

There were two teachers in school whose influence I know I reflect. One was a sensitive thinker who taught me English in high school. The other was a piano teacher at the New England Conservatory of Music. He and I had long conversations about music, art, literature and life as well as his teaching me music. There have been "teachers" outside school, especially one, who influenced my thinking a great deal.

Mal

Bubble
July 14, 2003 - 06:08 am
I think many of us are influenced by the teachers we admired: we were at a malleable age after all. we probably prefered being influenced by them that we chose to admire than by our own parents. We are not thankful enough for what we received from these dedicated teachers.



I intend to search for and meet at least two of them this autumn and express my belated gratitude.
Bubble

tooki
July 14, 2003 - 06:19 am
One can't determine if something is too deep to understand if you don't know the meanings of the words used. If you know what the "categories" are, things get a lot clearer. The theory of categories is straightforward; it's the application of the theory that becomes difficult.

The 10 categories consitute a list of the different kinds of things there are; all those things in the world of humans that exist. These are objects of knowledge, ie., things that can be known. It's pretty much what we ordinarily mean by a category. The hard part is putting things in categories and determining what it means to put a thing in a category.

tooki
July 14, 2003 - 06:30 am
Should anyone here be remotely interested in pursuing the "categories," here is an introduction. However, it is likely that we will learn more about them when we get to Aristotle, who, unlike the poet Plato, spoke clearly about the stuff of existance.

What's Out There

I want to be clear about this. Aristotle will, one hopes, speak clearly about what HE thinks is real. We all have our own opinions, don't we?

robert b. iadeluca
July 14, 2003 - 06:43 am
I never thought I would get to the point of commenting on my doctoral dissertation in a discussion of Civilization -- and I don't intend to get detailed now!! -- but my dissertation was on the topic of "Understanding." As I struggled through figuring out a list of categories in which everything in the world could be placed, I had a flash of light. It had already been done for me!

The answer was the Dewey Decimal system which had been used in libraries for years. I don't care what topic you want to examine -- pigeon feathers, types of tables, weather systems, feelings of passion, and on and on -- go to a library and the research librarian will quickly find a category in which such a topic could be found.

I then worked up a methodology for the dissertation using those categories and voila!!

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 14, 2003 - 06:46 am
Bubble:--When you thank your two teachers this autumn, I hope you will tell them that you were led to do so by Durant and Plato.

Robby

tooki
July 14, 2003 - 09:48 am
Robby - The Dewey Decimal System reflects the world as it was in 1890 (or thereabouts) when Dewey constructed the system. Attempts to keep it updated by adding numbers to the right of the decimal resulted in 15 digit numbers, which were most ungainly. How did you update it for your thesis? That's a retorical question.

Forgive the digression; I find classification systems fascinating. Part of the lure (and my occasional irritaton)with the Durants is with their way of classifying historical events.

The lure of the web is it's unclassifyableness; it's not a system and retrieval of information depends on how you frame the question. Isn't that right, Mal.

Malryn (Mal)
July 14, 2003 - 10:03 am

Tooki, the web is well-classified and categorized to a search engine. It's learning how to give the right command that is the stumbling block in that endeavor. List your keywords in order of importance, the fewer the better; then you'll find what you want. Patience helps.

Mal

Bubble
July 14, 2003 - 10:23 am
Robby I certainly will cite these two name, but will add the most important: Robby from SeniorNet! If they have access to internet, I do not doubt that they will visit SoC too. If they will participate is another matter: I have no idea how fluents they were in English. They knew French and Flamish for sure.



I think I should add a big thank to you here for leading us expertly thtough such interesting topics and allowing the meanderings on the way.
Bubble

HubertPaul
July 14, 2003 - 10:41 am
From Marylin's link HERE:

"....Given Plato's reverence for Socrates, we can trust that in Plato's version, he is presenting the true "essence" of Socrates, even if all of the account is not "historically accurate." According to Plato, the essence of Socrates and his mission is more important than whether this or that word or action really happened....."

"..the essence of Socrates and his mission is more important than whether this or that word or action really happened....."

change Socrates to Jesus, and let the bible literalists read it.

Sorry, does not belong here, just couldn't resist.

HubertPaul
July 14, 2003 - 11:34 am
Oooops, Malryn's link, not Marylin's......

Justin
July 14, 2003 - 01:14 pm
"Man is not the measure of all things".

Nothing is known or thought to be known that man did not conceive. We identify, define and classify everything that is known in the world. We create, compose, and express knowledge as well as fiction. However, man's senses have limits which limit experience, and ability to know.

If man is the measure of all things, then a thing has value only if it is useful to man. If a thing is useful to man it has value but what is useful to man may also be useful to plants, and animals of all kinds, particularly baboons.

Malryn (Mal)
July 14, 2003 - 02:34 pm

Bert, my name is Marilyn, and my screen name is Malryn, so you were close.

I'm still smiling at the point you made in your Post #470.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
July 14, 2003 - 04:38 pm
"All that the 'rabble of the senses' gives us is a Heracleitean flux of change. If we had only sensations, we should never have any knowledge or truth at all. Knowledge is possible through Ideas, through generalized images and forms that mold the chaos of sensation into the order of thought.

"If we could be conscious only of individual things, thought would be impossible. We learn to think by grouping things into classes according to their likenesses, and expressing the class as a whole by a common noun. Man enables us to think of all men -- table of all tables -- light of every light that ever shone on land or sea. These Ideas (ideai, eida) are not objective to the senses but they are real to thought, for they remain, and are unchanged, even when all the sense objects to which they correspond are destroyed.

"Men are born and die, but man survives. Every individual triangle is only imperfectly a triangle, sooner or later passes away, and therefore is relatively unreal. But triangle -- the form and law of all triangles -- is perfect and everlasting.

"All mathematical forms are Ideas, eternal and complete. Everything that geometry says of triangles, circles, squares, cubes, spheres would remain true, and therefore 'real', even if there had never been, and never would be, any such figures in the physical world.

"Abstractions also are real in this sense. Individual acts of virtue have a brief existence, but virtue remains as a permanent reality for thought, and an instrument of thought. So with beauty, largeness, likeness, and so forth. These are as real to the mind as beautiful, large, or like things are real to the sense.

"Individual acts or things are what they are by partaking of, and more or less realizing, these perfect forms or Ideas. The world of science and philosophy is composed not of individual things, but of Ideas.

"History, as distinct from biography, is the story of man. Biology is the science not of specific organisms, but of life. Mathematics is the study not of concrete things but of number, relation, and form independently of things and yet as valid for all things.

"Philosophy is the science of Ideas."

This is what I like about Durant. He is NOT a historian, in my view. When, in your history classes, did you discuss triangles, tables, largeness, etc.? Durant allows us to move into the forest and examine the trees in detail. The title of his set of volumes and the Heading of this discussion group does not have the word "history in it." It is the "Story" of civilization. He helps us to pause and briefly live with each culture that we visit.

I'm sure there are many fine historians but Durant has been serving up to me exactly what I want and needed.

Robby

Percivel
July 15, 2003 - 06:15 am
Justin Sez:

>Nothing is known or thought to be known that man did not conceive. <<


Robby sez:

>It is the "Story" of civilization. He helps us to pause and briefly live with each culture that we visit. <<


There is a difference between "what is" and "what man thinks is."

Once man creates an accepted package of "what is," he then attemps to extrapolate to the position of what that "what is" means. It is much like the difference between the reporter and the editor. One reports on what was seen and the other evaluates its.

Shasta Sills
July 15, 2003 - 01:08 pm
Bert, you should like Plato. He thought Mind was what mattered too, and never mind about matter.

When I was studying Jungian psychology, many long years ago, I had trouble understanding what Jung meant by "archetypes" until he said archetypes were the same thing as Plato's "forms." Plato's explanation was clearer to me than Jung's. Jung never did seem to me to explain his theories very clearly. Freud was much clearer. Even if Freud's theories were wrong, at least you knew what he was talking about.

Malryn (Mal)
July 15, 2003 - 02:16 pm

I could ask what Carl Jung has to do with geometry, but I won't because I'm afraid someone might give me an answer.

Mal

HubertPaul
July 15, 2003 - 05:23 pm
Shasta, I am a Mentalist at heart, but this doesn't belong into this discussion here, if it can be put into words at all. It is based more on experience than books.

Shasta Sills
July 16, 2003 - 07:01 am
Plato's forms are abstractions that pre-exist all objects. Ideas. Generalizations that pre-exist specifics. Before any specific object comes into existence, there was the idea, or form, or shape of this object. I always think of the forms that masons use to pour concrete into. You can use the same form over and over, but the concrete itself may be of different textures, densities, colors, etc. I also think of dress patterns. You can use the same pattern to make a blue cotton dress, a black silk dress, etc. The dresses all come out different but they are made from the same pattern.

Jung's archetypes are pre-existent forms of behavior that all humans inherit. Each of us expresses the archetype in a different way in our individual life, but we inherit a general pattern of behavior. Does that sound right, Robby?

tooki
July 16, 2003 - 08:38 am
Understanding innate knowledge, which is the study of when and how we know what we know, was given a boost about 40 years ago when Noan Chomsky said that children learn language because the rules of grammar are "hardwired." He called this "universal grammar."

Plato's pre existing forms, Jungian archetypes, and other views of pre-existing knowledge are called "nativist theory." All of these ideas are lumped under the question: Is it nature or nuture?" I'm for a little of both. Currently the evolutionary psychologists who support the "hardwiring" view of most behavior are winning the hearts of intellectuals everywhere.

This is the same Noam Chomsky whom some of you may know about because of his leftist political views. His political views and his lingusitic views are not connected.

Malryn (Mal)
July 16, 2003 - 11:37 am

The trouble I see with categories is that they can lead to stereotyping.

What I really want to know is:- Where's Robby? He hasn't posted since July 14th.

Mal

tooki
July 16, 2003 - 04:33 pm
Is that like waiting for (how do you spell it? Gordot?

Maybe, Mal, it's more like sterotypes lead to placing folks in catogories.

Anyway, where is he? Do we keep up a conversation? Or perhaps you could post the Durant section for him, Mal? I'm sure folks are ready to listen to the Durants rather than me.

robert b. iadeluca
July 16, 2003 - 05:42 pm
I'm back, folks. A violent thunderstorm the day before yesterday threw out the phone lines for miles around and my dial tone came back only today. Luckily I disconnected my phone jack knowing the storm was coming on.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 16, 2003 - 05:46 pm
Durant now moves us on to

Plato, the Moralist.

robert b. iadeluca
July 16, 2003 - 05:52 pm
"Plato knows that many of his readers will be skeptics, and for a while he struggles to find a natural ethic that shall stir men's souls to righteousness without relying on heaven, purgatory, and hell.

"The Dialogues of his middle period turn more and more from metaphysics to morals and politics. 'The greatest and fairest sort of wisdom by far is that which is concerned with the ordering of states and families.' The problem of ethics lies in the apparent conflict between individual pleasure and social good.

"Plato presents the problem fairly, and puts into the mouth of Callias as strong an argument for selfishness as any immoralist has ever given. He recognizes that many pleasures are good.

"Intelligence is needed to discriminate between good and harmful pleasures. For fear that intelligence may come too late we must inculcate in the young a habit of temperance, a sense of the golden mean."

Moderation and temperance on the part of the young? Good luck!!

Robby

Justin
July 16, 2003 - 09:22 pm
Plato's forms are concepts that exist in the ideal but are only approximated in reality. I'm thinking of definitions which form an ideal but which when applied only approximate the definition. A good example is a triangle. The triangle can be defined precisely by given lines and given angles, but it cannot be constructed precisely. Each construction of the triangle is an approximation of the ideal.

robert b. iadeluca
July 17, 2003 - 04:06 am
"The soul or principle of life has three levels or parts -- desire, will, and thought. Each part has its own virtue -- moderation, courage, and wisdom. To which should be added piety and justice -- the fulfillment of one's obligations to his parents and his gods.

"Justice may be defined as the co-operation of the parts in a whole, of the elements in a character, or of the people in a state, each part performing its fittest function properly.

"The Good is neither reason alone nor pleasure alone, but that mingling of them, in proportion and measure, which produces the Life of Reason. The supreme good lies in pure knowledge of the eternal forms and laws.

Morally 'the highest good is the power or faculty, if there be such, which the soul has of loving the truth, and of doing all things for the sake of truth.' He who so loves truth will not care to return evil for evil. He will think it better to suffer injustice than to do it. He will 'go forth by sea and land to seek after men who are incorruptible, whose acquaintance is beyond price.

"The true votaries of philosophy abstain from all fleshly lusts. When philosophy offers them a purification and release from evil, they feel that they ought not to resist her influence. To her they incline, and whither she leads they follow her.'"

Does anyone these days (or in any era for that matter) follow these guidelines?

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
July 17, 2003 - 05:53 am
It does seem to be an ideal that seems to be pretty impossible reach. Does it not leave out what rules mankind more than reason? Passion.

Truth: Would it be individual truths or collective truths. Who is to determine what absolute truth is? What are "eternal forms of laws"? What about other philosophers' points of view which might be different, for instance those in the Far East?

robert b. iadeluca
July 17, 2003 - 08:11 am
"Plato had burned his poems, and lost his religious faith. But he remained a poet and a worshiper. His conception of the Good was suffused with esthetic emotion and ascetic piety. Philosophy and religion became one in him. Ethic and esthetic were fused.

"As he grew older he became incapable of seeing any beauty apart from goodness and truth. He would censor, in his ideal state, all art and poetry that might seem to the government to have an immoral or unpatriotic tendency. All rhetoric and all nonreligious drama would be barred. Even Homer -- seductive painter of an immoral theology -- would have to go.

"The Dorian and Phrygian modes of music might be allowed, but there must be no complicated instruments, no virtuosos making 'a beastly noise' with their technical displays, and no radical novelties."

He had lost his religious faith. Radical, if you will? All nonreligious drama would be barred and no radical novelties. Conservative? Just who or what was this man?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
July 17, 2003 - 01:38 pm

Plato sounds like a Puritan monk.

Mal

Shasta Sills
July 17, 2003 - 01:47 pm
Well, who was it who said consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds? Emerson, wasn't it?

Shasta Sills
July 17, 2003 - 02:07 pm
What is the allegory of "Plato's Cave" really supposed to mean? Are the shadows on the walls the mental concepts we humans form of the real world? Does it mean the only way we can access reality is with our minds, and this is only a shadow of reality? Or does it mean something else?

robert b. iadeluca
July 17, 2003 - 04:04 pm
Perhaps we can learn more from

Plato, The Utopian

robert b. iadeluca
July 17, 2003 - 04:17 pm
"Plato is interested in the affairs of men. He sees a social vision too and dreams of a society in which there shall be no corruption, no poverty, no tyranny, and no war. He is appalled at the bitterness of political faction in Athens, 'strife and enmity and hatred and suspicion forever recurring.'

"Like a blue blood, he despises the plutocratic oligarchy, 'the men of business pretending never so much as to see those whom they have already ruined, inserting their sting -- that is, their money -- into anybody else who is not on his guard against them, and recovering the principal sum many times over. This is the way in which they make drones and paupers to abound in the state.'

"And then democracy comes into being, after the poor have conquered their opponents, slaughtering some and banishing some, while to the remainder they give an equal share of freedom and power. The democrats turn out to be as bad as the plutocrats. They use the power of their number to vote doles to the people and offices to themselves. They flatter and pamper the multitudes until liberty becomes anarchy, standards are debased by omnipresent vulgarity, and manners are coarsened by unhindered insolence and abuse.

"As the mad pursuit of wealth destroys the oligarchy, so the excesses of liberty destroy democracy."

"The democrats use the power of their numbers." Way back in our "Democracy in America" discussion I seem to recall deTocqueville using the term "tyranny of the majority."

"Excesses of liberty destroy democracy?" An interesting concept.

Robby

tooki
July 17, 2003 - 05:09 pm
The Durants paraphrase Plato, "...liberty become anarchy, standards are debased by omnipresent vulgarity, and manners are coarsened by unhindered insolence and abuse."

W.B. Yeats, "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold; mere anarchy is loosed upon the world .... The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity."

Do all old men of wisdom, sensivity and intelligence have thoughts and feelings of anarchy taking over?

robert b. iadeluca
July 17, 2003 - 06:21 pm
Tooki:--No, I don't!

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
July 17, 2003 - 07:24 pm

Yeah but, Robby, you don't fit in the category of "Old"!

Mal

Justin
July 17, 2003 - 09:52 pm
Freedom of Speech does not allow one to cry "fire" in a crowded theater. If a free democratic society included such an excess chaos would result.

robert b. iadeluca
July 18, 2003 - 03:36 am
Now comes

Plato, The Lawmaker

robert b. iadeluca
July 18, 2003 - 03:55 am
"In his declining years, still longing to be a legislator, Plato offered a third-best state. The Laws, besides being the earliest extant classic of European jurisprudence, is an instructive study in the senile aftermath of youthful romanticism.

"The new city, says Plato, must be placed inland, lest foreign ideas undermine its faith, foreign trade its peace, and foreign luxuries its self-contained simplicity. The number of free citizens shall be limited to the conveniently divisible number of 5040. In addition to these will be their families and their slaves.

"The citizens shall elect 360 guardians, divided into groups of thirty, each group administering the state for a month. The 360 shall choose a Nocturnal Council of twenty-six, which shall meet at night and legislate on all vital affairs. These councilors shall allot the land in equal, indivisible, and inalienable parcels among the citizen families.

"The guardians 'shall provide against the rains doing harm instead of good to the land and shall keep them back by works and ditches, and make irrigation streams furnish even to the dry places plenty of water.'

"To control the growth of economic inequality, trade is to be held to a minimum. No gold or silver is to be kept by the people, and there shall be no lending of money at interest. Everyone is to be discouraged from living by investment, and is to be encouraged to live as an active farmer on the land. Any man who acquires more than four times the value of one share of land must surrender the surplus to the state. Severe limits are to be placed upon the power of bequest.

"Women are to hve equal educational and political opportunity with men. Men must marry between thirty anbd thirty-five, or pay heavy annual fines. They are to beget children for only ten years.

"Drinking and other public amusements are to be regulated to preserve the morals of the people.

"To accomplish all this peaceably there must be complete state control of education, publication, and other means of forming public opinion and personal character. The highest official in the state is to be the minister of education. Authority will replace liberty in education, for the intelligence of children is too undeveloped to excuse us for leaving to them the guidance of their own lives.

"Literature, science, and the arts are to be under censorship. They will be forbidden to express ideas which the counclors consider hurtful to public morals and piety. Since obedience to parents and the laws can be secured only through superntural sanctions and aids, the state shall determine what gods are to be worshiped, and how, and when.

"Any citizen who questions this state religion is to be imprisoned. If he persists he is to be killed."

Would you like to live in a society like this? What happened to the idea of Democracy? Any comments here about any of Plato's suggestions?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 18, 2003 - 04:40 am
Durant adds:--"Through all of Plato's thought runs the fear of the abuses of freedom, and the conception of philosophy as the policeman of the people and the regulator of the arts."

Having to police the use/abuse of freedom seems like an oxymoron. Reminds me of that "Vietnam phrase" where they had to "destroy the village in order to save it."

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
July 18, 2003 - 05:19 am

Plato's Soviet Socialist Republic of Athens? That's what it sounds like to me.

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
July 18, 2003 - 05:25 am

"Plato was a bore."

~Friedrich Nietzsche

Éloïse De Pelteau
July 18, 2003 - 05:47 am
This is such fun. Here is a Plato quote:

"One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors.

Éloïse De Pelteau
July 18, 2003 - 05:52 am
Here is another gem:

"I am the wisest man in Athens because I know I don't know.

robert b. iadeluca
July 18, 2003 - 05:53 am
"Looking back over this body of speculation we are surprised to see how fully Plato anticipated the philosophy, the theology, and the organization of medieval Christianity -- and how much of the modern Fascist state.

"Plato is not only a pra-existent Christlich, as Nietzsche called him, but a pre-Christian Puritan. He distrusts human nature as evil, and thinks of it as an original sin tainting the soul.

"He breaks up into an evil body and a divine spirit that unity of body and soul which had been the educated Greek ideal of the sixth and fifth centuries. Like a Christian ascetic he calls the body the tomb of the soul.

"He takes from Pythagoras and Orphism an Oriental faith in transmigration, karma, sin, purification, and 'release.' He adopts, in his last works, the other-worldly tone of a converted and repentant Augustine. One would almost say that Plato was not Greek if it were not for his perfect prose.

"It was his fate that he was a logician as well as a poet. He was the most brilliant reasoner of antiquity, subtler than Zeno of Elea or Aristotle. He loved philosophy more than he loved any woman, or any man. In the end, like Dostoevski's Grand Inquisitor, he concluded to a suppression of all free reasoning, a conviction that philosophy must be destroyed in order that man may live.

"He himself would have been the first victim of his Utopia."

Any additional comments as we leave Plato?

Robby

tooki
July 18, 2003 - 08:06 am
Maybe I missed something, but did we ever find out why it's (whatever it is) is called "Platonic Love?"

HubertPaul
July 18, 2003 - 11:00 am
Plato agreed with Socrates that sense-perception could not give genuine knowledge. Man must pass beyond the senses to ideas which are not arrived from experience and are not dependent on experience. True knowledge is reached when these ideas are ‘remembered’ and take the front of consciousness.

What is true knowledge? Knowing the reasons and causes of things?

Remembered?........ By whom?

Do we come into this world carrying these ideas within ourselves?

HubertPaul
July 18, 2003 - 11:17 am
:".................In the end, like Dostoevski's Grand Inquisitor, he concluded to a suppression of all free reasoning, a conviction that philosophy must be destroyed in order that man may live."

In the end....Nietsche was insane.

In the end...Do many great philosophers become somewhat irrational?

robert b. iadeluca
July 18, 2003 - 11:39 am
Tooki:--How about THIS?

Shasta Sills
July 18, 2003 - 01:28 pm
I don't know how old Plato was when he said the body is the tomb of the soul, but if he was an old man, I can relate to that comment. When I was young, I considered my body a useful companion who assisted me in all my projects. Now, it is trying to see how many ways it can frustrate me. When Freud was an old man, he said, "Half a dozen of my organs are competing for the honor of killing me." Maybe that's what Plato meant when he said the body is the tomb of the soul.

robert b. iadeluca
July 18, 2003 - 01:35 pm
And now -- on to

Aristotle

beginning first with "The Wander-Years"

robert b. iadeluca
July 18, 2003 - 01:41 pm
"When Plato died, Aristotle built an altar to him, and gave him almost divine honors. He had loved Plato even if he could not like him.

"He had come to Athens from his native Stageirus, a small Greek settlement in Thrace. His father had been court physician to Philip's father, Amyntas II, and had taught the boy some anatomy before sending hm to Plato. The two rival strains in the history of thought -- the mystical and the medical -- met and warred in the conjunction of the two philosophers.

"Perhaps Aristotle would have developed a thoroughly scientific mind had he not listened so long to Plato (some say for twenty years). The doctor's son struggled in him with the Puritan's pupil, and neither side won. Aristotle never quite made up his mind. He gathered about him scientific observations sufficient for an encyclopedia, and then tried to force them into the Platonic mold in which his scholastic mind had been formed.

"He refuted Plato at every turn because he borrowed from him on every page."

Do you folks think that the mystical and medical can live together in the same mind?

Robby

tooki
July 18, 2003 - 02:08 pm
Hubert Paul, in Post 508, asks,"Do we come into this world carrying these ideas within ourselves?"

According to many contemporary folks who have built upon Darwin's evolutionary theories, we DO come into the world carrying many ideas. They call it "hard wired." Much of what they say has to do with finding a genetic base for many behaviors. I recently read that researchers have discovered a gene for depression. And I read a whole book by two wierd guys who justified rape as a means of man spreading his seed. That is, man is "hard wired" to have as many off spring as possible. (That book must have made a strong impression on me because I think I've mentioned it before). Maybe Aristotle will have more on the subject of innate knowledge.

Robby: I liked, "I am convinced, and alway was, that Platonic love is Platonic nonense."

Shasta: "And at my back I always hear, time's winged chariot hurrying near."

Malryn (Mal)
July 18, 2003 - 03:04 pm

Tooki:

Chacun à son goût.

Mal

Shasta Sills
July 18, 2003 - 03:13 pm
Tooki, that's one of my favorite lines. I hear that chariot coming closer and closer all the time.

robert b. iadeluca
July 18, 2003 - 03:26 pm
"Aristotle was an earnest student, and soon caught the eye of his master. When Plato read at the Academy his treatise on the soul, Aristotle, says Diogenes Laertius, 'was the only person who sat it out, while all the rest rose up and went away.' After Plato's death (347) Aristotle went to the court of Hermeias, who had studied with him at the Academy and had raised himself from slavery to be the dictator of Atarneus and Assus in upper Asia Minor.

"Aristotle married Hermeias' daughter Pythias (344) and was about to settle in Assus when Hermeias was assassinated by the Persians, who suspected him of planning to help Philip's proposed invasion of Asia. Aristotle fled with Pythias to near-by Lesbos, and spent some time there in studying the natural history of the island. Pythias died after gving him a daughter.

"Later Aristotle married, or lived with, the hetaira Herpyllis. He maintained to the end a tender devotion to the memory of Pythias, and at his death asked that his bones be laid beside hers. He was not quite the emotionless bookworm that one might picture from his works.

"In 343 Philip, who probably had known him as a youth at Amyntas' court, invited him to undertake the education of Alexander, then a wild lad of thirteen. Aristotle came to Pella and labored at the task for four years.

"In 340 Philip comissioned him to direct the restoration and repeopling of Stageirus, which had been laid waste in the war with Olynthus, and to draw up a code of laws for it. All of which he accomplished to the satisfaction of the city, which commemorated its re-establishment by him in an annual holiday."

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
July 18, 2003 - 05:14 pm
"Do you folks think that the mystical and medical can live together in the same mind?"

Robby, I don't know, but I am sure you do.

Justin
July 18, 2003 - 09:59 pm
I don't think the mystical and the medical can live together.The mind that harbours both is not one that I can trust with my health. There are physicians who try faith healing but I avoid them as crackpots with sears roebuck diplomas. There are physicians who say of sick patients that the out come is in the lap of the gods. They should say they know neither the diagnosis nor the therapy or given those, that we have no known cure. I would be satisfied with either pronouncement, but thoroughlly disappointed if the physician thought mysticism played a role in the outcome of a contest between me and a disease.

Even, Freudians think the cause of disease is some physical attribute that affected our mind. I don't know about psychologists. They may be willing to tolerate mysticism as a route to mental health. I rely on you, Robby, for clear thinking in this area. I don't have a good fix on the role of the psychologist.

robert b. iadeluca
July 19, 2003 - 02:42 am
This all depends on how you define the word "mystical." While, as a Clinical Psychologist, I don't prescribe, I believe there is a time and a place for medication. I hold a Diplomate in Psychopharmacology and am a member of the Department of Medicine of the local hospital. I refer patients to various physicians when I believe that medications would be beneficial and I do believe there is a place for them.

At the same time, I do believe that our doctors are within ourselves. I believe that Nature is, where possible, self-healing. As a psychotherapist, I often use (would you believe!!) the Socratic method wherein rather than give the patient the answer -- counselors give what they think is the answer, they counsel, they give advice, I am not a counselor -- I help the patient to think it through. The patient often comes to a conclusion which he/she had often known deep down within but was not able to arrive there without my facilitation.

Is that mystical? If so, then my mind held the advantages of the medical and the mystical simultaneously. Addiction has often been described as a physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual disease. Sometimes a person can "begin" to recover with the aid of a specific medication. Often a person can start on the road to recovery through psychotherapy alone. The Twelve-Step Program -- e.g. A.A. -- is a spiritual (not religious) program with no connection to medication. There are many people who are recovering addicts after having used a combination of all the above.

The educated Greek ideal of the sixth and fifth centuries had been a "unity of body and soul." I believe firmly in the body-mind connection. Each one can affect the other, sometimes in mysterious and powerful ways. Not to compare me with Plato, but am I a "logician as well as a poet?"

What do the rest of you participants here mean when you use the word "mystical?"

Robby

Bubble
July 19, 2003 - 04:34 am
MYstical is not physical, is not touchable. it has the word mystery in it. It is something that touches the soul, the inner core. It has hidden bearing on feelings and thoughts.

Malryn (Mal)
July 19, 2003 - 04:42 am

The word "mystical" connotes some sort of magic to me. Since I believe in reason, and need proof for what I see, read, hear and what I am told, I have little faith (or patience!) in magic and what's considered mystical and/or metaphysical as far as my own life is concerned.

I've had the interesting experience recently of going through physical examinations and tests, mostly at the behest of members of my family. Now, I am one who did not do all I've done in my life by thinking I am a "handicapped" person, thus limited and restricted. I think I am well; therefore I am well. I think I am able; therefore I am able. For me a doctor's services are required only when I think and know I truly am not well.

Each recent examination and test has proven what I knew before I started this medical endeavor: There's absolutely nothing wrong with me except the residual effects of a serious illness (polio) I will have had sixty-eight years on the 26th of this month.

However, since I began all of this "stuff" June 16th, I developed Cellulitis in my left, polio-affected leg. This happened after I went out in the heat and my leg brace irritated my leg. Anyone who wears a brace will tell you that heat, humidity and the leather on braces are not compatible with human skin.

I told two of the doctors I've seen what was wrong with my leg. Each of them admitted that they knew nothing about polio and its aftereffects, one of which is pressure from braces that can cause problems like irritation to the skin, which sometimes can cause Cellulitis. Each of them said they had no idea what was causing the swelling I had, though I emphatically told them what was wrong.

Becoming thoroughly frustrated by the last one who examined me, I called the doctor who treated this condition in me once before, and I went to her office last Wednesday. She walked in the examining room and said, "It's been a long time, and it's good to see you. Now, tell me what's wrong and how you want me to treat you." She then told my daughter, who had accompanied me, that I always went in and told her my diagnosis, and told her what treatment to use, and I was always right. What she was saying was that I know "my polio" ( i.e. myself ) better than anyone else does, and she listens to what I say. What the other doctors thought was a mystery, this doctor knew was no mystery at all because I told her so.

I've been through a Twelve Step program and learned to change the things I could and accept the things I could not change. I also learned how to tell the difference, something I consider all the time. For me there has been no magic involved in my daily recovery from a serious addiction problem I had. I took control of my body and my mind and began to recover. The fact that I can and do shows me that any Higher Power in my life is inside me, and that when I access it, I can do any number of so-called "miraculous" things.

I've been told I have a very strong will, for which I'm grateful. It is my will that has kept me going through a lot of terrible things, beginning in childhood, that might have sunk a less strong-willed person.

Robby is right in his approach to the people who consult with him. The answers to good health, physically, mentally and emotionally, are in all of us and can't be discovered from someone else.

I suppose with the Cellulitis I have right now I could be considered sick. I'll tell you truthfully that I am not sick. When I'm sick, I'll let you and a doctor know.

This is my attitude about aging, too. By the numbers I am "old". I accept this stage of my life; do not expect to do what I did even as short a time as twenty years ago. I know how to access other parts of me which compensate for what I cannot do now that I did when I was thirty. Because of that I am never needful or lacking. There is no miracle involved in my being able to do what I do with the effects of polio, arthritis and aging which are on me.

I consider myself an ordinary human being who shares this capacity for living with all other human beings. Any difference there might be is the fact that I know what my potential is; I know what I can do, and I do it. There is no mysticism involved. There is no god involved. "Physician, heal thyself." More often that not, we are our own physicians.

This is more than you ever wanted to know about Mal and what she thinks about mysticism.

robert b. iadeluca
July 19, 2003 - 05:13 am
We are always caught up in definitions. Bubble, you say:--"Mysticism touches the soul -- the inner core."

But of course this just raises the next question of "what is a soul?" "What is an inner core?"

As I talk with my patients on the topic of spirituality (and this is more common than you might think), I find it difficult to locate words that mean "spirituality" to the patient. I find myself using hand movements because I can't find the words. I will often ask: "Do you see yourself as a spiritual person" and then go on to say that they can define spirituality any way they want -- it may be related to religious or it may not.

Although neither of us may not be able to put it into words and our inner definitions may be different, nevertheless each of knows whether we consider ourselves spiritual or not.

By the way, I do not consider us off-topic. I'm sure Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle would be most pleased to hear our conversation. After all, they were the ones who got us on to this topic.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
July 19, 2003 - 05:18 am

My soul is that of an artist. I am hugely sensitive to all that is around me, nature, people, animals, birds, living. I see with the eyes of a painter and hear with the ears of a musician. Yes, I am a spiritual person, and my spirituality has nothing to do with God or religion.

Mal

Bubble
July 19, 2003 - 06:38 am
Inner core? That little flame that burns inside all of us and that many just ignore or never bother to find. It's The place where we can find the extra push or strength at times of stress, the place where we learn what makes us tick or happy if one digs deep enough. I have no idea what spirituality covers. It has been overused in "religious context" so is not a word I use. My faith is in me.



Of course it is highly individual, depends on sensitivity and hard to express in words.

robert b. iadeluca
July 19, 2003 - 06:56 am
But you see, Bubble, the question goes on and on. What is "that little flame that burns inside all of us"? Is it present at birth? Can it be developed?

as you say, it is "hard to express in words."

Maybe as we continue with Aristotle, an answer of some sort might be forthcoming.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
July 19, 2003 - 06:57 am

"My faith is in me."

BUBBLE and I have never met face to face, so we do not truly know each other, but we know each other. We both had the same illness in childhood, she at a very early age. An illness which debilitates people and leaves them physically weakened for life in some ways, does something to the way these people think and how they approach life. BUBBLE and I live more than an ocean apart, and yet we share a good deal, including that inner flame, and we have much in common. My faith is in me, too -- both inside me and in me, just as BUBBLE's is.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
July 19, 2003 - 07:07 am
"In 334 Aristotle returned to Athens, and -- probably aided by funds from Alexander -- opened a school of rhetoric and philsophy. He chose as its home the most elegant of Athens' gymnasiums, a group of buildings dedicated to Apollo Lyceus (God of Shepherds), surrounded with shady gardens and covered walks.

"In the morning he taught advanced subjects to regular students. In the afternoon he lectured to a more popular audience, probably on rhetoric, poetry, ethics, and politics.

"He collected here a large library, a zoological garden, and a museum of natural history. The school came to be called the Lyceum, and the group and its philosophy were named Peripatetic from the covered walks (peripatoi) along which Aristotle like to move with his students as he discoursed.

"A sharp rivalry developed between the Lyceum, whose students were mostly of the middle class, the Academy, which drew its membership largely from the aristocracy, and the school of Isocrates, which was frequented chiefly by colonial Greeks. The rivaly was eased in time by the emphasis of Isocrates on rhetoric, of the Academy on mathematics, metaphysics, and politics, and of the Lyceum on natural science. Aristotle set his pupils to gathering and co-ordinating knowledge in every field -- the customs of barbarians -- the constitutions of the Greek cities --the chronology of victors in the Pythian games and the Athenian Dionysia -- the organs and habits of animals -- the character and distribution of plants -- and the history of science and philosophy.

"These researches became a treasury of data upon which he drew, sometimes too confidently, for his varied and innumerable treatises."

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
July 19, 2003 - 07:38 am
We can be both logical and spiritual, one does not cancel the other. We are born with both, some lean more on one side than the other and I find that those who keep a good balance are easier to live with. To recognize where we stand is the hardest part because each one of us feel that we have the right balance.

Life is so short, first thing you know you are nearer the end of it than the beginning. How to make it worthwhile and transmit our values becomes the most important thing for us. We all want our family and friends to remember us by what we did that was good. Good enough to transmit from one generation to the other. Today I heard my daughter quoting her grandmother while I had forgotten it.

Eloïse

robert b. iadeluca
July 19, 2003 - 07:57 am
Speaking of mystical, my Astrological Sign is Libra (Sept 25) -- the sign of Balance. Anyone want to decide which side I am on?

Robby

Bubble
July 19, 2003 - 08:07 am
Does it really have a significance?
symbol-wise, a balance -scale- should be calibrated and balanced.
As a Gemini, am I all mixed up in an opposing double personality?

Malryn (Mal)
July 19, 2003 - 08:08 am

You'd better be on your side, Robby, if you know what's good for you.

Tooki and I were born under the sign of Cancer. Here's what the sign of Cancer is:



Emotional and loving
Intuitive and imaginative
Shrewd and cautious
Protective and sympathetic


Changeable and moody
Overemotional and touchy
Clinging and unable to let go

Does it fit?

I just looked that quote up. I don't believe in astrology, though it can be a fun game.

P.S. In Chinese astrology I was born under the sign of the Dragon. Now, what does that mean?

Dragonlady Crab Mal

Bubble
July 19, 2003 - 08:25 am
You didn't look for Libra, Mal? Robby made me terribly curious.
I wonder why so many people believe it it. Probably like some believe in superstion I suppose.

Shasta Sills
July 19, 2003 - 09:14 am
I never use the words "mystical" or "spiritual" because I don't know what they mean. They sound like phoney words to me. Anytime somebody tells me he is spiritual, I keep a cautious eye on him.

robert b. iadeluca
July 19, 2003 - 09:24 am
Let us move on to

Aristotle, The Scientist

robert b. iadeluca
July 19, 2003 - 09:32 am
"Aristotle has traditionally been considered as primarily a philosopher. Perhaps this is a mistake. Let us, if only for a fresh view, consider him chiefly as a scientist.

"His curious mind is interested, to begin with, in the process and technique of reasoning. So acutely does he analyze these that his 'Organon,' or Instrument -- the name given after his death to his logical treatises -- became the textbook of logic for two thousand years.

"He longs to think clearly though he seldom in his extant works, succeeds. He spends half his time defining his terms, and then feels that he has solved the problem.

"Definition itself he defines definitively as the specification of an object or idea by naming the genus or class to which it belongs ('man is an animal') and the specific difference that distinguishes it from all other members of that class ('man is a rational animal'). It is characteristic of his methodical way that he arranged in ten 'categories' the basic aspects under which anything may be considered -- substance, quantity, quality, relation, place, time, position, possession, activity, passivity -- a classification that some writers have found an aid in the amplification of their flagging thought."

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
July 19, 2003 - 09:47 am

Categories by Aristotle

tooki
July 19, 2003 - 02:17 pm
I have nothing more to contribute to the sparkling discussion on spirituality. But, I do have something to say about the residual effects of polio. I am startled to hear Mal say the doctors knew little about her condition. I thought it was well known - at least among doctors - that polio had effects many years after the event.

I knew this astonishing man who was the owner and bartender of a rough, rowdy, and tough bar in the boonies in Idaho where loggers hung out. His residual effects from polio did not stop him for a minute, either. He sort of walked with a cane when he had to. H e had arranged the bar with various hanging on spaces so he could make it up and down the bar and serve drinks, which he also made. He had a 45 and a base ball bat, maintaining control over these unruly thugs by waving the baseball bat, shouting in this terrorizing loud voice, and when it really got unruly, he'd shoot the 45, pointing somewhere safely.

It was unforgetable. My companion at the time made a name for himself by borrowing the gun, going to the men's room which was flooded by the overflowing toilet, and shooting four holes in the floor so it could drain. The owner thought that the best event in his bartending career.

Sorry, back to Aristotle. I thought that this man, who was highly intelligent, knew himself well, and wished to have as much excitement in his life as possible. I thought it a spiritual quest.

Malryn (Mal)
July 19, 2003 - 02:45 pm

I won't ask what you were doing in that posh saloon, TOOKI, because you'll say you were having a drink, and what else did I think?

Today "old polios" are dying out. Polio victims always were a minority. Polio was only a "hot" disease when everybody thought there was a chance they'd catch it. We're much more of a minority now that the spread-of-contagion chance has diminished in the way it has. Why should doctors spend their time learning Poliomyelitis and Latin when they're much more interested in "now" medical issues and CyberDoc-Speak?

I will say that one M.D. said he knew a neurologist on the Duke Hospital staff who might know a little about the long-term effects of polio. Why a neurologist? Well, my dears, polio virii attack the central nervous system, that's why. You'd be surprised how many people believe it goes for the brain, and that's why all of us polio survivors are so whacky and nuts and not to be trusted, especially when it comes to jobs. Why did Franklin D. Roosevelt try to cover up the fact that he had polio, do you think?

It interests me so much because BUBBLE faces the exact same problems in Israel about her "old polio" that I do here in the United States. I wonder what Aristotle says about human beings who are less than perfect?

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
July 19, 2003 - 03:02 pm
I get the feeling that everyone here has had his/her fill of Aristotle. So let's move on to that magnificent man --

Alexander!!

Shasta Sills
July 19, 2003 - 03:05 pm
All human beings are less than perfect. That's how you define "normal" in the human species.

Malryn (Mal)
July 19, 2003 - 03:06 pm

Robby, we haven't even scratched the surface of Aristotle's philosophy.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
July 19, 2003 - 03:10 pm
"The intellectual career of Aristotle, after he left his royal pupil, paralleled the military career of Alexander. Both lives were expressions of conquest and synthesis. Perhaps it was the philosopher who instilled into the mind of the youth that ardor for unity which gave some grandeur to Alexander's victories. More probably that resolve descended to him from his father's ambitions, and was fused into a passion by his maternal blood.

"If we would understand Alexander we must always remember that he bore in his veins the drunken vigor of Philip and the barbaric intensity of Olympias. Furthermore, Olympias claimed descent from Achilles. Therefore the Illiad had a special fascination for Alexander. When he crossed the Hellespont he was, in his interpretation, retracing the steps of Achilles. When he conquered Hither Asia, he was completing the work that his ancestor had begun at Troy.

"Through all his campaigns he carried with him a copy of the Illiad annotated by Aristotle. Often he placed it under his pillow at night beside his dagger, as if to symbolize the instrument and the goal."

It appears that once again we are talking about genetic predisposition.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 19, 2003 - 03:12 pm
Those -- and it seems to me to be only a few -- who want to continue speaking of Aristotle may certainly do so.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
July 19, 2003 - 04:00 pm

I'm sorry for the disruption, Robby. I jumped off the mysticism springboard and went astray. True to my astrological sign I'm now climbing back in my shell. But first, for anyone who might be interested:

A picture of Aristotle's Cosmos

Aristotle's Political Theory

Justin
July 19, 2003 - 06:37 pm
Mysticism is a mystery to me. Spirituality is goosey,and hokey. When people use these words in conversation, I usually back away, because I know one of us doesn't know what the conversation is all about.

robert b. iadeluca
July 20, 2003 - 03:13 am
"Physically, Alexander was an ideal youth. He was good in every sport -- a swift runner, a dashing horseman, a brillian fencer, a practiced bowman, a fearless hunter. His friends wished him to enter the foot races at Olympia. He answered that he would be willing, if his oponents were kings. When all others had failed to tame the giant horse Bucephalus, Alexander succeeded, seeing which says Plutarch, Philip acclaimed him with prophetic words: 'My son, Macedonia is too small for you. Seek out a larger empire worthier of you.'

"Even on the march his wild energy found vent in shooting arrows at passing objects, or in alighting from, and remounting, his chariot at full speed. When a campaign lagged, he would go hunting and, unaided and on foot, face any animal in combat. Once, after an encounter with a lion, he was pleased to hear it said that he had fought as though it had been a duel to decide which of the two should be king. He liked hard work and dangerous enterprises, and could not bear to rest. He laughed at some of his generals, who had so many servants that they themselves could find nothing to do. 'I wonder,' he told them, 'that you with your experience do not know that those who work sleep more soundly than those for whom other people work. Have you yet to learn that the greatest need after our victories is to avoid the vices and the weaknesses of those whom we have conquered?'

"He grudged the time given to sleep, and said that 'sleep and the act of generation chiefly made him sensible that he was mortal.' He was abstemious in eating, and until his last years, in drinking, though he loved to linger with his friends over a goblet of wine. He despised rich foods, and refused the famous chefs who were offered him, saying that a night march gave him a good appetite for breakfast, and a light breakfast gave him an appetite for dinner.

"Perhaps in consequence of these habits his complexion was remarkbly clear, and his body and breath, says Plutarch, 'were so fragrant as to perfume the clothes that he wore.' Discounting the flattery of those who painted or carved or engraved his likeness, we know from his contemporaries that he was handsome beyond all precedents for a king, with expressive features, soft blue eyes and luxuriant auburn hair. He helped to introduce into Europe the custom of shaving the beard, on the ground that whiskers offered too ready a handle for an enemy to grasp.

"In this little item, perhaps, lay his greatest influence upon history."

Any comments about this remarkable man?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 20, 2003 - 04:36 am
"Mentally he was an ardent student, who was too soon consumed with responsibilities to reach maturity of mind. Like so many men of action, he mourned that he could not be also a thinker. Says Plutarch, 'He had a violent thirst and passion for learning, which increased as time went on. He was a lover of all kinds of reading and knwoledge' and it was his delight, after a day of marching or fighting to set up half the night conversing with scholars and scientists. He wrote to Aristotle, 'For my part I had rather surpass others in the knowledge of what is excellent, than in the extent of my power and dominion.'

"Possibly at Aristotle's suggestion he sent a commission to explore the sources of the Nile, and he gave funds generously for a variety of scientific inquiries. Whether a longer life would have brought him to Caesar's clear intelligence, or the subtle understanding of Napoleon, is to be doubted. Royalty found him at twenty, after which warfare and administration absorbed him. In consequence he remained uneducatd to the end. He could talk brilliantly, but fell into a hundred errors when he wandered from politics and war. With all his campaigns he seems never to have gained such acquaintance with geography as the science of his time could have given him.

"He rose at times above the narrowness of dogma, but remained to the last a slave to superstitution. He put great confidence in the soothsayers and astrologers that crowded his court. Before the battle of Arbela he spent the night performing magic ceremonies with the magician Aristander, and offered sacrifices to the god Fear. He who faced all men and beasts with a very ecstasy of courage was 'easily alarmed by portents and prodigies' even to changing important plans.

"He could lead many thousands of men, could conquer and rule millions, but he could not control his own temper. He never learned to recognize his faults or limitations, but allowed his judgment to be soaked and drowned in praise.

"He lived in a frenzy of excitement and glory, and so loved war that his mind never knew an hour of peace."

All of us in school learned the name "Alexander the Great" but many students never got to know much about him beside his name. Now Durant is helping us to see the individual himself.

Robby

tooki
July 20, 2003 - 07:36 am
At this intersection of Aristotle and Alexander the Great I think it only fair to say that if it weren't for Aristotle, Alexander the Great might well have been known as Alexander the Average.

Aristotle's early influence on Alexander came very close to creating Plato's "Philosopher King."

robert b. iadeluca
July 20, 2003 - 07:51 am
"Alexander's moral character hovered between similar contradictions. He was at bottom sentimental and emotional, and had, we are told, 'melting eyes.' He was moved sometimes beside himself by poetry and music. He played the harp with great feeling in his early youth. Teased about this by Philip, he abandoned the instrument, and thereafter, as if to overcome himself, refused to listen to any but martial airs.

"Sexually he was almost virtuous, not so much on principle as by preoccupation. His incessant activity, his long marches and frequent battles, his complex plans and administrative burdens, used up his resources, and left him little appetite for love. He took many wives, but as a sacrifice to statesmanship.

"He was gallant to ladies, but preferred the company of his generals. When his aides brought a beautiful woman to his tent late at night, he asked her, 'Why, at this time?' She replied, 'I had to wait to get my husband to bed.' Alexander dismissed her, and rebuked his servants, saying that because of them he had narrowly escaped becoming an adulterer.

"He had many of the qualities of a homosexual, and loved Hephaestion to madness. But when Theodorus of Taras offered to sell him two boys of great beauty, he sent the Tarentine packing, and begged his friends to tell him what baseness of soul he had shown that anyone should make such a proposal to him. He gave to friendship the tenderness and solicitude that most men give to love.

"No statesman known to us, much less any general, ever surpassed him in simple trustfulness and warmheartedness, in open sincerity of affection and purpose or in generosity even to acquaintances and enemies.

Could we have here a son who was trying to be what his father, Philip, wanted him to be but was incessantly influenced by his teacher, Aristotle?

Robby

Shasta Sills
July 20, 2003 - 09:04 am
I agree with Aristotle's criticism of Plato's "Republic."

"It overvalues political unity, embraces a system of communisim that is impractical and inimical to human nature, and it neglects the happiness of individual citizens."

That Alexander was a real livewire, wasn't he? I would like to have seen him jumping in and out of a speeding chariot.

robert b. iadeluca
July 20, 2003 - 09:16 am
"Alexander endeared himself to his soldiers by his kindliness. He risked their lives but not heedlessly. He seemed to feel all their wounds. As Caesar forgave Brutus and Cicero, and Napoleon Fouche and Talleyrand, so Alexander forgave Harpalus, the treasurer who had absconded with his funds and had returned to beg forgiveness. The young conqueror reappointed him treasurer to all men's astonishment, and apparently with good results.

"At Tarsus, in 333, Alexander being ill, his physician Philip offered him a purgative drink. At that moment a letter was brought to the King from Parmenio, warning him that Philip had been bribed by Darius to poison him. Alexander handed the letter to Philip, and as the latter read it, Alexander drank the draught -- with no ill effect.

"His reputation for generosity helped him in his wars. Many of the enemy allowed themselves to be taken prisoner, and cities, not fearing to be sacked, opened their gates at his coming.

"Nevertheless, the Molossian tigress was in him, and it was his bitter fate to be ruined by his occasional paroxysms of cruelty. Havng taken Gaza by siege and assault, and infuriated by its long resistance, Alexander cause the feet of Batis, its heroic commandant, to be bored, and brazen rings passed through them. Then, intoxicated with memories of Achilles, he dragged the now dead Persian, tied by cords to the royal chariot, at full speed around the city.

"His increasing resort to drink as a means of quieting his nerves led him more and more frequently, in his last years, to outbreaks of blind ferocity, followed by brooding fits of violent resmorse."

Any comments about this change in Alexander's personality?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 20, 2003 - 09:33 am
My candle burns at both ends;
It will not last the night.
But ah, my friends, and oh, my foes;
It makes a lovely light.

- - Edna St. Vincent Millay

Percivel
July 20, 2003 - 09:45 am
It has been said that Alexander was raised in the Spartan tradition. Male children were tied to the backs of wild bulls at a very young age and left there for a day. This was suppose to be a test of survivablility. Sure worked for Alexander didn't it?

robert b. iadeluca
July 20, 2003 - 10:06 am
"One quality in Alexander dominated all the rest -- ambition. As a youth he had fretted over Philip's victories. He complained to his friends, 'Father will get everything done before we are ready, and will leave me and you no chance of doing anything great and important.' In his passion for achievement he assumed every task, and faced every risk.

"At Chaeronea he was the first man to charge the Theban Sacred Band. At the Granicus he indulged to the full what he called his 'eagerness for encountering danger.' This, too, became an uncontrollable passion. The sound and sight of battle intoxicated him. He forgot then his duties as general, and plunged ahead into the thickest of the fight. Time and again his soldiers, fearful of losing him, had to plead with him to go to the rear.

"He was not a great general. He was a brave soldier whose obstinate perseverance marched on, with boyish heedlessness of impossibilities, to unprecedented victories. He supplied the inspiration. Probably his generals, who were able men, contributed organization, training, tactics, and strategy. He led his troops by the brilliance of his imagination, the fire of his unstudied oratory, the readiness and sincerity with which he shared their hardships and griefs.

"Without question he was a good administrator. He ruled with kindness and firmness the wide domain which his arms had won. He was loyal to the agreements which he signed with commanders and cities. He tolerated no oppression of his subjects by his appointees.

"Amid all the excitement and chaos of his campaigns he kept clearly at the center of his thoughts the great purpose that even his death would not defeat -- the unification of all the eastern Mediterranean world into one cultural whole, dominated and elevated by the expanding civilization of Greece."

Robby

Bubble
July 20, 2003 - 10:15 am
Having taken Gaza by siege and assault, and infuriated by its long resistance, Alexander cause the feet of Batis, its heroic commandant, to be bored

Is that the Gaza in the Gaza strip? It had a Persian commandant?



He really ruled on a huge empire.

robert b. iadeluca
July 20, 2003 - 10:16 am
I was wondering about that, Bubble. Maybe somebody here can help us.

Robby

Bubble
July 20, 2003 - 10:25 am
It is the same Gaza, I just checked with Jeeves.



I was interested: my family on my maternal side were from Spain and left with the Inquisition some 500 years ago. They first settled in Gaza before moving after two generations to Hebron and Jerusalem. There is a record of them having taken the wooden carved doors from their Spanish synagogue with them (the head of the family was a rabbi) and used them for the new synagogue in Gaza. Much later the doors were moved to Hebron, where they were destroyed when the community there was all murdered.



The name Castel is still remembered in the local lore of Gaza as of a very fair and compassionate man. I never succeeded in finding out which Castel he was.

robert b. iadeluca
July 20, 2003 - 10:33 am
It must mean a lot, Bubble, when certain comments in Durant's volumes ring a personal note with you.

In your case, considering where you live and your "oriental" roots, his first and second volume come close to home. As we move into the third volume about Caesar, who knows what participant here of Italian heritage might see a relevant name. Then as we move toward Europe, others here may have the same experience.

This sentence "These volumes may help some of our children to understand and enjoy the infinite riches of their inheritance" taken from the Heading above may make this discussion even more meaningful.

Robby

Bubble
July 20, 2003 - 10:59 am
My dad was Italian (from Rhodes Island before WWII) My husband is from Turk origin but the family name is of Greek origin reminiscent of Salonique. Salonique was part of the Turkish Empire. So I am near the topic on all sides.

robert b. iadeluca
July 20, 2003 - 12:17 pm
"On his accession Alexander found himself at the head of a tottering empire.

"The northern tribes in Thrace and Illyria revolted.

"Aetolia, Acarnania, Phocis, Elis, Argolis renounced their allegiance.

"The Ambraciotes expelled the Macedonian garrison.

"Artaxerxes III boasted that he had instigated the killing of Philip, and that Persia now had nothing to fear from the immature stripling of twenty who had succeeded to the throne.

"When the glad tidings of Philip's death reached Athens, Demosthenes donned festal garb, placed a garland of flowers upon his head, and moved in the Assembly that a crown of honor should be voted to the assassin Pausanias.

"Within Macedonia a dozen factions conspired against the young King's life."

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
July 20, 2003 - 01:09 pm
Bubble, how fascinating the roots you have, please tell us more. Imagine tearing down the wooden carved door from the Synagogue in Spain and bring them all the way to Gaza!!!!On Friday I saw a television interview of a lady from Natanya named Maxie. I thought that you might know her. They showed the beautiful seashore with palm trees, the scenery reminded me of Florida.

tooki
July 20, 2003 - 03:22 pm
had "outbreaks of blind ferocity, followed by brooding fits...."

I have wondered for some time if some of the heros of history suffered from bi-polar disorder. Descriptions of incredible fits of strength, remarkable bouts of superhuman stamina, and fearless feats in battle sound to me like the manic phase of bi-polar patients. Those whom I have known, while not fighting battles, accomplish astonishing amounts of work before they crash. I have read that one of the problems doctors have treating bi-polar patients is their reluctance to abandon the manic phase.

Not that it changes anything if history's heros were bi-polar, but does anybody else think these folks were frequently mentally unbalanced?

robert b. iadeluca
July 20, 2003 - 03:32 pm
Tooki:--You are right on the mark. I had similar thoughts about Alexander.

And you are correct about the disease. I never have patients come to me during their manic phase. They are happy (sometimes overly happy!) and think they are doing fine. They come to see me when they are in their depressive phase. The problem with that is it takes some time to determine if they are suffering from Depressive Disorder or Bi-polar. One has to either look at their history to see if they had previously had a manic phase or else wait to see if they have one in order to give a proper diagnosis.

I have thought about this in discussing the leaders of some of the previous civilizations we have covered. I have a hunch we will see more of this when we begin to discuss the Roman civilization.

Robby

Justin
July 20, 2003 - 03:56 pm
Robby: Tell us about Bi Polar as a disease, please.

Malryn (Mal)
July 20, 2003 - 04:17 pm

And I was thinking Alexander exhibited most of the symptoms of alcoholism. Of course, I've known many drug addicted people who had Bipolar Affective Disorder, and have read about even more. I can't think of anything worse for this condition than alcohol and some drugs.

A great many really creative people are this way. Just think of all the artwork, music and history we would have missed out on if these people had not been "mentally unbalanced".

I'm so glad I have been most of my life. Sometimes the extremes were painful, but things were all right as long as I was focused on creating something or other. It was certain people around me who thought I shouldn't be the way I am. I found that very interesting. Wonder if Alexander went through that with people he encountered, too?

I've never been treated for this condition, but learned over time to recognize "overboard symptoms". Since I can, I never go too high or too low. If I do slip beyond the limits I've set up for myself, I know how to pull out of it and level out.

I read today that there is some indication that this condition could be a gene problem. ( Gene advantage? )

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
July 20, 2003 - 04:23 pm
I'll be brief, Justin. Bi-polar Disorder is what used to be called Manic-Depression. People swing between highs and lows. The cycle can be over a period of a couple of days, or weeks, or months. It is not the same as Major Depression. For Depression the medication of choice these days is SSRI's such as Prozac, Zoloft, Celexa, or Paxil. These meds "push" one up from a depression. If the person has a true diagnosis of Depression, then OK.

"If, however, the patient is diagnosed as Depression but it was truly Bi-polar, then the SSRI can, if not observed carefully, push one up to a manic phase. The proper med for Bi-polar is what is called a mood stabilizer, the goal being to bring a person down from a manic phase or up from a depressive phase. For years the med for this was Lithium. Lithium is still used and is an excellent med but one has to be monitored occasionally for possible Lithium toxicity. A more common med these days, also excellent, is Depakote.

Bi-polar is a serious disorder. There is Bi-polar I and Bi-polar II. Someone with Bi-Polar I has manic phases which are "out of this world." They might go to the bank, draw out their total balance of $50,000, marry someone they met only yesterday, and hop a plane to South America. Or they might get violent. Hospitalization is needed for Bi-polar I. Bi-polar II is a little less but is still serious. In their manic phase, the person might go without sleep for three or four days, be ever on the go, go without eating, and their talk is pressured. This can be handled on an outpatient basis if caught enough in advance. The "black joke" in medical circles is that the person with Bi-polar I is hospitalized. The person with Bi-polar II is promoted.

I think that is enough so that we can get back to Alexander, a possible Bi-polar person. Keep all this in mind when we get into Volume III.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 20, 2003 - 04:45 pm
"Alexander ended all internal opposition, and set the tempo of his career. Having arrested and decapitated the chief plotters at home, he marched south into Greece (336) and within a few days reached Thebes.

"The Greek states hastened to renew their allegiance. Athens sent him a profuse apology, voted him two crowns, and conferred upon him divine honors. Alexander, appeased, declared all dictatorships abolished in Greece, and decreed that each city should live in freedom according to its own laws. The Amphictyonic Council confirmed him in all the rights and honors that it had given to Philip. A congress of all Greek states except Sparta, meeting at Corinth, proclaimed him captain general of the Greeks, and promised to contribute men and supplies for the Asiatic campaign.

"Alexander returned to Pella, put the capital in order, and then marched north to suppress the rebellion of the barbarian tribes (335). With Napoleonic swiftness he led his troops as far as the modern Bucharest, and planted his standrds upon the northern bank of the Danube.

"Then, hearing that the Illyrians were advancing upon Macedonia, he marched two hundred miles through Serbia, surprised the invaders in the rear, defeated them, and drove the remnant back to their mountains."

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
July 20, 2003 - 06:21 pm

Alexander's Dream of United Nations



Alexander: Pictures, essay, map and links



Alexander the Great. History of Western Civilization course, Boise State University

robert b. iadeluca
July 21, 2003 - 03:44 am
Great links, Mal!! As one reads of his various conquests in those links, particpants here will recognize names in today's news -- e.g. Tigris and Euphrates -- as well as names familiar to some of us from Our Oriental Heritage (Egypt, India).

Alexander tried to unify the world by conquering it. However, he had also been well tutored by Aristotle and, as he entered these lands, practiced courtesy and diplomacy, e.g. wearing their garb, encouraging inter-marriage, and respecting their gods.

Makes one to think.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 21, 2003 - 03:53 am
"Alexander met the first Persian contingent at the river Granicus, and overwhelmed it. There Cleitus saved his life by severing the arm of the Persian who was about to strike Alexander from behind. After giving his men a rest he marched down into Ionia, offering the Greek cities democratic self-government under his protectorate. Most of them opened their gates without resistance.

"At Issus he met the main force of the Persians, 600,000 men, under Darius III. Once more he won by using his cavalry for attack, his infantry for defense. Darius fled, leving his purse and his family behnd him, to be treated the one with gratitude, the other with chivalry.

"After peaceably taking Damascus and Sidon, Alexander laid seige to Tyre, which was harboring a large Phoenician squadron in the pay of Persia. The ancient city resisted so long that when at last he captured it, Alexander lost his head and allowed his men to massacre eight thousand Tyrians, and to sell thirty thousand as slaves.

"Jerusalem surrendered quietly, and was well treated. Gaza fought until every man in the city was dead, and every woman raped."

Your comments, please?

Robby

Bubble
July 21, 2003 - 07:20 am
Mal, from your sites, Alex was very attractive...

Alexander never liked opposition. But he usually was a good strategist. A fair take over is always better than a war and the majority knows that.

If all were killed, does that mean that Gaza-ians were Greek settlers after that? Even in present time Gaza is a hard core problem. Maany pre-1948 refugees live there of course.

robert b. iadeluca
July 21, 2003 - 08:19 am
"The triumphant march of the Macedonians was resumed through the Sinai desert into Egypt where, he showed a tactful respect for the country's gods. Alexander was welcomed as a divinely sent liberator from Persian rule.

"Knowing that religion is stronger than politics, he crossed another desert to the oasis of Siwa, and paid his respects to the god Ammon -- his very father if Olympias could be believed. The pliant priests crowned him Pharaoh with the ancient rites, and so eased the way for the Ptolemaic dynasty.

"Returning to the Delta, Alexander conceived or approved the idea of building a new capital at one of the Nile's many mouths. Perhaps the Greek merchants at near-by Naucratis suggested it as providing a more convenient depot for the enlarged Greek trade that might now be expected betwen Egypt and Greece.

"He marked out the orbit of the walls of Alexandria, the outline of the principal streets, and the sites for temples to the Egyptian and Grecian gods."

Durant feels that Alexander saw religion as stronger than politics. Any reactions to that comment?

Robby

Percivel
July 21, 2003 - 08:50 am
>Durant feels that Alexander saw religion as stronger than politics. Any reactions to that comment?<<


If one can assume that people choose acts because of what they believe, then Durant is probably right. However, one would have to have a very broad definition of religion in order to assume that what one believes is also religion.

Justin
July 21, 2003 - 11:09 am
I think Alexander saw religion as a means of controlling the people of conquered lands. He worked through the priests in Egypt and probably did so in other parts of the middle East. He adopted the clothes and other customs of conquered people to to give him easy sway. He wanted peaceful control after capture. Ocasionally, he lost his head- One of those Manic things- but in general he spread Greek ideas throughout the Med.

robert b. iadeluca
July 21, 2003 - 03:31 pm
"Hardly stopping to rest at Susa, Alexander marched over mountans in the depth of winter to seize Persepolis. So rapidly did he move that he was in Darius' palace before the Persians could conceal the royal treasury.

"Here again his good judgment left him, and he burned the magnificnt city to the ground. His soldiers looted the houses, ravaged the women, and killed the men. Perhaps they had been infuriated by seeing, on their approach to the town, eight hundred Greeks who, for various reasons, had suffered mutilation at the hands of Persians by the cutting off of legs, arms, or ears, or the gouging out of the eyes. Alexander, moved to tears by this sight, gave them lands, and assigned dependents to work for them.

"Still insatiate, he attempted now what Cyrus the Great had failed to accomplish -- the subjugation of the tribes that hovered on the eastern borders of Persia. Perhaps in his simple geography he hoped to find, beyond the mystic East, the ocean that would serve as a natural frontier for his conquered realm.

"Entering Sogdiana, he came upon a village inhabited by the descendants of those Branchidae who, in 480, had surrendered to Xerxes the treasures of their temple near Miletus. Fevered with the thought that he was revenging the pillaged god, he ordered all the inhabitants slain, including the women and children -- visiting the sins of the fathers upon the fifth generation.

"His campaign in Sogdiana, Ariana, and Bactriana was bloody and bootless. He achieved some victories, found some gold, and left enemies everywhere behind him. Near Bokhara his men captured Bessus, who had slain Darius. Alexander, suddenly making himself the avenger of the Great King, had Bessus whipped almost to death, had his nose and ears cut off, and then sent him to Ecbatana, where he ws executed by having his arms tied to one, and his legs to the other, of two trees had had been drawn together by ropes, so that when the ropes were cut the trees pulled the body to pieces.

"At every new remove from Greece Alexander was becoming less and less a Greek, more and more a barbarian king."

"Alexander was moved to tears." So much for the meaning of being "civilized." And let us not forget that these atrocities were committed not by Alexander alone but by the multitudes of his soldiers. How does that expression go? "I was just being a good soldier following orders." I look around the world today and I wonder.

Robby

Fifi le Beau
July 21, 2003 - 06:55 pm
This article is rather long in three parts, but I thought of it immediately when reading Robby's last two posts. Robby wonders if we are more civilized today, and perhaps this article will help answer that question.

http://www.rollingstone.com/features/featuregen.asp?pid=1696

......

Justin
July 21, 2003 - 10:44 pm
Fifi: That's just "sojer" talk. It's indicative of nothing significant. It's a combination of a little boredom, a little fear, a little comraderie, a little courage, a little youth. Those guys will come home, if they make it, to be lawyers, accountants, bookkeepers, coal miners, grocery baggers, and next door neighbors who mow the grass, and look good to your granddaughters.

robert b. iadeluca
July 22, 2003 - 03:27 am
"The year 327 found Alexander passng over the Himalayas into India. Vanity conspired with curiosity to lead him into such distant territory. His generals advised against it. His army obeyed him unwillingly. Crossing the Indus, he defeated King Porus, and announced that he would continue to the Ganges. But his soldieers refused to go farther. He pled with them and for three days, like a scion of Achilles, pouted in his tent. But they had had enough.

Sadly he turned back, loath to face west again, and forced his way through hostile tribes with such personal bravery that his soldiers wept at thsir inability to realize all his dreams.

"He had now spent nine years in Asia, and he had changed the continent by his victories less than it had transformed him by its ways. He had been told by Aristotle to treat Greeks as freemen, 'barbarians' as slaves. But he had been surprised to find among the Persian aristocrats a degree of refinement and good manners not often seen in the turbulent democracies of Greece. He admired the manner in which the Great Kings had organized their empire, and wondered how his rough Macedonians could replace such governors.

"He concluded that he could give some permanence to his conquests only by reconciling the Persian nobles to to his leadership and using them in administrative posts. More and more charmed by his new subjects, he abandoned the idea of ruling over them as a Macedonian, and conceived himself as a Greco-Persian emperor governing a realm in which Persians and Greeks wold be on an equal footing, and would peaceably mingle their culture and their blood. The long quarrel of Europe and Asia would end in a wedding feast.

"Already thousands of his soldiers had married native women, or were living with them. Should he not do likewise, marry the daughter of Darius, and reconcile the nations by begetting a king who would unite both dynasties in his veins?

"He broached the plan to this officers, and suggested that they, too, should take Persian wives. They had been a long time away from home, and the Persian ladies were beautiful. So in one great nuptial at Susa (324) Alexander married Statira, daughter of Darious III, and Parysatis, daughter of Artaxerxes III, attaching himself in this way to both branches of royalty, while eighty of his oficers took Persian brides. Thousands of similar marriages were soon afterward celebrated among the soldiers.

"At the same time he drafted thirty thousand Persian youths, had them educated on Greek lines, and taught them the Greek manual of war."

A possible lesson for today?

Robby

HubertPaul
July 22, 2003 - 09:17 am
Robby,

...read to-day: "A good host (discussion leader) is a cross between a flight attendant, a coach, a mother, an old philosopher and an innocent child."

....and a psychiatrist? Or is the above a definition of a psychiatrist :>)

Malryn (Mal)
July 22, 2003 - 10:28 am
Make love, not war?

Mal

Bubble
July 22, 2003 - 11:31 am
No more war, no more bloodshed...

tooki
July 22, 2003 - 08:41 pm
I don't know about the rest of you, but I've done my best to do my part.

This discussion group was down all day for me, and probably others. It was most frustrating; I'm glad the system is back up.

robert b. iadeluca
July 23, 2003 - 11:17 am
The system just came back up for me and I will post when I get back home this evening.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 23, 2003 - 06:26 pm
"The discontent in the army verged on open mutiny. When the King announced that he would send back to Macedon the oldest of the soldiers, each richly paid for his services, he was shocked to hear many muttering that they wished he would dismiss them all, since, being a god, he had no need of men to realize his purposes. Finally he gave them all permission to go home. 'Go back and report that you deserted your king and left him to the protection of conquered foreigners.'

"Then he retired to his rooms, and refused to see anyone. His soldiers, stricken with remorse, came and lay down before the palace, saying that they would not leave until he had forgiven them and reaccepted them into his army. When at last he appeared, they broke into tears and insisted on kissing him. After being reconciled with him they went back to their camp shouting a song of thanksgiving.

"Deceived by this show of affection, Alexander dreamed now of further campaigns and victories. He planned the subjugation of hidden Arabia, sent a mission to explore the Caspian regions, and thought of conquering Europe to the Pillars of Hercules.

"But his strong frame had been weakened by exposure and drink, and his spirit by the conspiracies of his officers and the mutinies of his men. Back in Babylon, he abandoned himself more and more to drink. One night, reveling with his officers, he proposed a drinking match. Promachus quaffed twelve quarts of wine, and won the prize, a talent. Three days later he died.

"Shortly afterward, at another banquet, Alexander drained a goblet containing six quarts of wine. On the next night he drank heavily again. Cold weather suddenly setting in, he caught a fever, and took to his bed. The fever raged for ten days, during which Alexander continued to give orders to his army and his fleet. On the eleventh day he died, being in the thirty-third year of his age (323).

"When his generals asked him to whom he left his empire he answered, 'To the strongest.'"

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
July 23, 2003 - 07:09 pm

Boys will be boys. All I could think of when I read Robby's post was Dylan Thomas.

Edit:~ Why did the shooting at City Hall in New York City remind me of Ancient Greece?

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
July 24, 2003 - 03:31 am
"The same tragic year saw the end of Aristotle. He had long been unpopular in Athens. The Academy and the school of Isocrates disliked him as a critic and a rival, while the patriots looked upon him as a leader of the pro-Macedonian party.

"Advantage was taken of Alexander's death to bring an accusation of impiety against Aristotle. Heretical passages from his books were brought in as evidence. He was charged with having offered divine honors to the dictator Hermeias, who, being a slave, cold not have been a god.

"Aristotle quietly left the city, saying that he would not give Athens a chance to sin a second time against philosophy. He withdrew to the home of his mother's family in Chalcis, leaving the Lyceum in the care of Theophrastus.

"The Athenians passed sentence of death upon him, but had neithr opportunity nor need to execute it. For either through a stomach illness aggravated by his flight or, as some say, by taking poison, Aristotle died a few months after leaving Athens, in the sixty-third year of his age. His will was a model of kindly consideration for his second wife, his family, and his slaves.

"The death of Greek democracy was both a violent and a natural death in which the fatal agents were the organaic disorders of the system. The sword of Macedon meely addd the final blow. The city-state had proved incapable of solving the problems of government. It had failed to preserve order within, and defense without. Despite the appeals of Gorgias, Isocrates, and Plato for some Dorian discipline to tame Ionian freedom, it had discovered no way of reconciling local autonomy with national stability and power. Its love of liberty had seldom interfered with its passion for empire.

"The class war had become bitter beyond control, and had turned democracy into a contest in legislative looting. The Assembly, a noble body in its better days, had degenerated into a mob hating all superiority, rejecting all restraint, ruthless before weakness but cringing before power, voting itself every favor, and rating property to the point of crushing initiative, industry, and thrift.

"Philip, Alexander, and Antipater did not destroy Greek freedom. It had destroyed itself, The order that they forged preserved for centuries longer, and disseminated through Egypt and the East, a civilization that might otherwise hve died of its own tyrannous anarchy."

"The fatal agents were the disorder of the system. Love of liberty seldom interfered with passion for empire. Class war had become bitter. The Assembly had degenerated into a mob voting itself every favor." Hm-m-m-m.

Robby

depfran
July 24, 2003 - 06:03 am
As a mother, I see the concept of freedom on a smaller scale. While giving some illusion of freedom in the decisions the chid will take, as in giving him only two options before him, there is a sense that he has freedom but at the same time, it is within a certain boundary of good judgment and right conduct. This gives guidance to his mind and the opportunity of taking responsibility for his decision. He acquires experience of making choices and staying away from the path of poor conduct. Of course, this play doesn't last for very long but it gives the mother some time to educate the child on what is the responsibility atttached to having a freedom of choice.

When Alexander gave his army the freedom of choice to stay with him or go back to Greece, they soon realized the path of right conduct. It is amazing to see how he handled such a huge army and how respected he was by the majority of the people he ruled. His conception of the world was beyond the thinking of the time. In that, he was a genius.

Françoise

robert b. iadeluca
July 24, 2003 - 08:24 am
Good to hear from you again, Francoise.

In my opinion, you drew an excellent analogy!! I suppose we could go further and say -- on a higher level than family -- that teachers can give students a feeling of "freedom" and later in life employers can give their employees the same feeling.

Alexander, however, did more than lead. He was out on the front lines being a role model. That, I believe, is why they "loved" him. Do our parents and teachers and employers do the same?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
July 24, 2003 - 08:37 am

What kind of role model is this -- decapitating people, burning cities, looting houses, ravaging women, killing off the men of a city, and drinking himself to death?

It seems to me as if your admiration is in the wrong place.

Mal

Shasta Sills
July 24, 2003 - 09:10 am
Alexander was "larger than life." He had too much ambition, too much energy, too much courage, too much charisma. He did everything to excess. None of his successes were enough. He always wanted more. He couldn't restrain himself until he conquered the whole world. Whether he did something good or something bad, it was always beyond what an average person would do. To me, he is not completely admirable, or completely despicable, but just astonishing.

robert b. iadeluca
July 24, 2003 - 09:14 am
Shasta says:--"Alexander is not completely admirable, or completely despicable, but just astonishing."

While Alexander was an extreme example (possibly bi-polar?), isn't this also so about many -- if not most -- individuals (parents, teachers, employers) who have a mixture of being admirable and, at times, despicable? Sometimes one trait comes out -- sometimes another. Are we always perfect role models? Are we always imperfect?

Robby

tooki
July 24, 2003 - 09:54 am
"The unintended consequence of the Greek passion for "Empire" was the enslavement of formerly free citizens who lost their property to the heavy taxation that was required to maintain a professional army that could control its expanding empire. The citizenry thus lost the zeal to support the polis. In the end, there were as many Greek mercenaries fighting against Alexander the Great as there were Greeks in his army. And the end came swiftly. The Greek empire vanished within a 53 year period to the Romans as a result of the slow but steady decay of their civilization from within, a complete dissolution into chaos." (On page7-8 of the printed version)

This comment followed the Durant quotation given above by Robby in an article, "Is America Ready to go to War with the Clintons' Military?", by Gerald L. Atkinson, November 1, 2002. I was started at finding the Durants' quoted extensively. It confirms the continuing relevance of the Durants views on history.

The article is long (long winded?), but here it is for those interested in a conservative view.

Occupation of Iraq

Malryn (Mal)
July 24, 2003 - 10:46 am

In my very humble opinion, the scale tipped too far in the direction of megalomania, atrocity and murder as far as Alexander was concerned. Throughout history there have been heroic myths about men who were and are larger than life. We disregard the harm and damage they do so we can feed a kind of primitive need for this type of colossal savior figure.

It's time for change. If worship of people like Alexander continues, we foster perpetuation of "the same", rather than evolving as rational thinkers and not barbarians. Why, for example, are not Greek philosophers put on the same pedestal as this man?

I cannot rationalize or excuse what he did with words like bipolar, extreme, imperfect or astonishing.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
July 24, 2003 - 11:09 am
"Had oligarchy or monarchy done any better? The Thirty had committed more atrocities against life and property in the few months of their power than the democracy in the preceding hundred years.

"And while democracy was producing chaos in Athens, monarchy was producing chaos in Macedonia -- a dozen wars of succession, a hundred assassinations, and a thousand interferences with freedom -- with no redeeming glory of literature, science, philosophy, or art.

"The weakness and smallness of the state in Greece had been a boon to the individual, if not in body, certainly in soul. That freedom, costly though it was, had generated the achievements of the Greek mind.

"Individualism in the end destroys the group, but in the interim it simulates personality, mental exploration, and artistic creation. Greek democracy was corrupt and incompetent, and had to die.

"But when it was dead, men realized how beautiful its heyday had been. All later generations of antiquity looked back to the centuries of Pericles and Plato as the zenith of Greece, and of all history."

Apparently, according to Durant, each type of civilization has its bright side and its dark side. The pros and the cons. Monarchy produces chaos but so does democracy. But monarchy has no redeeming features, only wars, assassinations, etc. while democracy also produces literature, art, science, and philosophy. The mind is strengthened. Oligarchy, as I understand it, strengthens the group whereas democracy strengthens the individual which, in turn, leads toward the arts and sciences.

Any chaos being created by our current democracy? If so, any redeeming features?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 24, 2003 - 03:30 pm
"Historians divide the past into epochs, years, and events, as thought divides the world into groups, individuals, and things. But history, like nature, knows only continuity amid change -- historia non facit saltum -- history makes no leaps."

- - - Will Durant

tooki
July 24, 2003 - 04:29 pm
The world is very chaotic at this time in history, and much of the chaos is caused by the United States flailing around, trying to bring joy to the world in the guise of democracy. However, for all its mistakes, I think democracy in the United States offers the most freedom.

About role models. I never assumed a role model need be positive, in a social or historical sense. A role model is, I opine, someone whom you would like to be like. The virtue or sinfullness of the role model is irrelevant. Alexander was a terrific role model for his soldiers, and a terrible one for anyone else.

Tejas
July 24, 2003 - 05:51 pm
Sorry to pop in at irregular intervals, but I have been moving practically every month for the last six months.

There is a new book that I would like to recomment for discussion. It is "1421: The Year the Chinese discovered America." Since I am something of a Chinese expert myself, I am very much aware that this a well-researched book. It think it would make a very interesting topic.

robert b. iadeluca
July 24, 2003 - 06:08 pm
Tejas:--In this discussion group we follow along with Durant. We have already covered China and other oriental civilizations, we are nearing the end of Ancient Greece, and will soon be discussing the Roman civilization.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 24, 2003 - 06:11 pm
The time has come for us to cover Durant's Chapter V --

THE HELLENISTIC DISPERSION

322-146 B.C.

robert b. iadeluca
July 24, 2003 - 06:12 pm
Greece and Macedon

robert b. iadeluca
July 24, 2003 - 06:27 pm
"Hellenistic Greece did not feel Alexander's death as 'the end of an age.' It looked upon him as the beginning of 'modern' times, and as a symbol of vigorous youth rather than a factor in decay. It was convinced that it had now entered upon its richest maturity, and that its leaders were as magnificnent as any in the past except the incomparable young King himself.

"In many ways it was right. Greek civilization did not die with Greek freedom. On the oontrary it conquered new areas and spread in three directions as the formation of vast empires broke down the political barriers to communication, colonization, and trade.

"Still enterprising and alert, the Greeks moved by hundreds of thousands into Asia and Egypt, Epirus and Macedon. Not only did Ionia flower again, but Hellenic blood, language, and culture made its way into the interior of Asia Minor, into Phoenicia and Palestine, through Syria and Babylonia, across the Euphrates and the Tigris, even to Bactria and India.

"Never had the Greek spirit shown more zest and courage. Never had Greek letters and arts won so wide a victory."

What is going on here? Greece was supposed to be declining. Freedom is dying but apparently not the Greek culture.

Robby

Justin
July 24, 2003 - 10:02 pm
Yes, not Greek culture. Greek culture lives on. The Greeks dispersed and shared their culture with the Romans, the Egyptians, the Persians, the Phonicians and most of the known world. Greek culture is still with us in theatre, in literature, in architecture, in politics and in religion. It is ingrained in our way of life.

robert b. iadeluca
July 25, 2003 - 03:09 am
A reminder to follow the GREEN quotes in the Heading --

"There were not only three major monarchies -- Macedonia, Selencia, and Egypt. There were a hundred Greek city-states, of all degrees of independence. There was a maze of alliances and leagues. There were half-Greek states in Epirus - Judea - Pergamum - Byzantium - Bithynia - Cappadocia - Galatia - Bactria. In the west were Greek Italy and Sicily, torn between aging Carthage and youthful Rome.

"Alexander's rootless empire was too loosely bound together by languge, communication, customs, and faith to survive him. He had left not one but several strong men behind him, and none could be content with less than sovereignty. The size and diversity of the new realm dismissed all thought of democracy. Self-government, as the Greeks understood it, presupposed a city-state whose citizens could come periodically to a common meeting place.

"Violence was as popular, condottieri as numerous and brilliant, in Hellenistic Greece as in Renaissance Italy. When Antipater died, Athens revolted again and put to death old Phocion, who had ruled it as justly as possible in Antipater's name.

"Taking advantage of the disorder brought on by the struggle for power in the eastern Mediterranean, a horde of Celts, or 'Gauls,' under Brennus marched down through Macedonia into Greece. Brennus pointed out the weak state of Greece, the immense wealth of her cities, the votive offerings in the temples, the great quantities of silver and gold. At the same time a revolution broke out in Macedonia under the leadership of Apollodorus. Part of the army joined in and helped the angry poor in their periodical revenge of despoiling the rich. The Gauls, doubtless guided by a Greek, found their way through secret passes around Thermopylae, killed and plundered indiscriminately, and advanced upon the rich temple of Delphi. Repulsed there by a Greek force and a storm that in Greek belief was Apollo's defense of of his shrine, Brennus retreated and killed himself in shame.

"After suffering years of such devastation, the Greeks of Asia bought off the invaders, and pesuaded them to retire into northern Phrygia (where their settlements become known as Galatia), Thrace, and the Balkans."

Nature abhors a vacuum. Apparently Alexander's death caused a vacuum.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 25, 2003 - 04:40 am
Here is a LINK to a brief but enlightening summary of what is meant by Hellenistic Greece as compared to the Classical Age -- and how Macedon helped to move Greece into Europe.

Robby

Percivel
July 25, 2003 - 05:35 am
>What kind of role model is this -- decapitating people, burning cities, looting houses, ravaging women, killing off the men of a city, and drinking himself to death?<<


You appear to be making the mistake of measuring Alexander by your personal standards and not the satandards of his era. Surely you can see that the world does not always march to the same drum that you hear.

Malryn (Mal)
July 25, 2003 - 05:49 am

People complain today about the Americanization of far away places. I wonder what will be said about us and the spread of our culture in history books two thousand years from now?

Aside from certain aspects of business, science and technology, I believe our one true cultural influence is music. American jazz has influenced music throughout the world. Despite its evolvement from primitive African music, it is the one thing we can truly call our own.

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
July 25, 2003 - 05:57 am

Gee, I'm glad I just posted about exactly what drum it is that I march to!

Percivel, you know darned well what I meant in that "anonymous" post you quoted! Will you please stop coming down on me?
Like, man, what did I ever do to you?

Mal

tooki
July 25, 2003 - 08:28 am
How else can you judge things if not by your own personal standards? If you can't know another person's mind, nor can you experience the standards of another era, then you have only your own standards for judgement.

The tools of empathy, imagination, and walking in another's shoes, are usually not adequate to surmount the barrier of one's own skin.

And, no, you cannot know another person's mind. I have that on good authority from the works of contemporary philosophers.

Malryn (Mal)
July 25, 2003 - 11:33 am
THE GALATIAN TRIBES

Percivel
July 25, 2003 - 11:39 am
>Percivel, you know darned well what I meant in that "anonymous" post you quoted! Will you please stop coming down on me? Like, man, what did I ever do to you?<<


Who is coming down on you? I was disagreeing with a statement you made. Mus I have your permission in order to do that?

>How else can you judge things if not by your own personal standards? If you can't know another person's mind, nor can you experience the standards of another era, then you have only your own standards for judgement. <<


You are absolutely right. One judges others by one's own experiences, but one makes a terrible mistake when there is the assumpton that the judgement is accurate.

Let's look at China as an example. We see China as a terribly restrictive regime, but we fail to see that a very strong central govenment has been the only factor that has stemmed starvation and disease in that country. Tha past has shown that a weak central government or a gaggle of war lords, almost always led to starvation in China.

Chose your poison. Would you prefer dictatorship or death by starvation?

Éloïse De Pelteau
July 25, 2003 - 12:22 pm
I used to worship the ground Napoleon walk on in my childhood. The few books I read about Napoleon were written by people who admired him. Learning history teaches me to analyze the context in which the events take place. For Alexander to prove his mettle and conquer the world he had to do what he did. Had he lived longer, he would have soon been forgotten. His invasions spread the Greek culture and language worldwide. He will be remembered because he was what he was.

Civilization moved forward through invasion and that always involved killing, torture, rape, dispersion of populations, burning and destruction of cities since the beginning. It is part of humanity it seems.

Eloïse

Malryn (Mal)
July 25, 2003 - 12:28 pm

Percivel, there are people in this Story of Civilization discussion who have known me since it began and before in other discussions led by Robert Iadeluca, including the first one he led. They will tell you that I am not what you insinuate; that my mind is broad and open to all kinds of opinions, including yours, and that I have more than once suggested that we try to think in the way of the time we are discussing.

I made a broad and general remark about negative role models as applied to people today, using Alexander as an example. That is not an indication that I want you or anyone else to agree with what I said, or that I am trying to convert anyone to my particular way of thinking.

A response about anything I say without personal reference to me and what I think and feel free to express is more than welcome by me, but comments about what I am and suggestions that I am trying to foist what I think on other people are not.

This is a difficult medium, to say the least. Innuendoes and comments of a personal nature are not acceptable here. It is common courtesy, for example, to address the person to whom you direct a remark by his or her name, not by an anonymous quotation. I do not often lose my patience in SeniorNet discussions, but I have today.

Bye, folks. Thank you. I've learned a lot.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
July 25, 2003 - 02:00 pm
Pax Vobiscum!!

robert b. iadeluca
July 25, 2003 - 02:12 pm
"Athenaeus tells us that Demetrius of Phalerum, about 310, took a census of Athens, and reported 21,000 citizens, 10,000 metics or alients, and 400,000 slaves. The last figure is incredible, but we know nothing that contradicts it. Very probably the number of rural slaves had grown. Estates were becoming larger, and were being worked more and more by slaves under a slave overseer managing for an absentee landlord.

"While the source of a virile and independent citizenry was drying up in the villages, industry and the class war were progressing in the towns. Slave dealers accompanied the armies, bought unransomed captives, and sold them at three or four minas ($150 or $200) a head in the great slave markets of Delos and Rhodes. The cosmopolitan spirit of the age was negligent of racial distinctions. Casual labor, which could be thrown upon public relief whenever it ceased to be privately profitable, was in many circumstances cheaper than slave labor that had to be continuously maintained.

"Some governments nationalized certain industries but the governments paid as low wages as the private employer, and squeezed all possible profit from the labor of their slaves. The gulf between rich and poor widened. The class war became bitterer than before.

"Every city, young or old, echoed with the hatred of class for class, with uprisings, massacres, suppressions, banishments, and the destruction of property and life."

As usual -- the "haves" and the "have-nots."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 25, 2003 - 02:52 pm
"The failure of the city-state accelerated the decay of the orthodox religion. The gods of the city had proved helpless to defend it, and had forfeited belief. The population was intermingled with foreign merchants who had no share in the city's civic or religious life, and whose amused skepticism spread among the citizens.

"The mythology of the ancient local gods survived among the peasantry and the simple townfolk, and in the official rites. The educated used it for poetry and art, the half-liberated attacked it bitterly, the upper classes supported it as an aid to order, and discountenanced open athism as bad taste.

"Skepticism, however, is uncomfortable. It leaves the common heart and imagination empty, and the vacuum soon draws in some new and encouraging creed. The victories of philosophy and Alexander cleared the way for novel cults. Athens in the third century was so disturbed by exotic faiths, nearly all of them promising heaven and threatening hell, that Epicurus, like Lucretius in first century Rome, felt called upon to denounce religion as hostile to peace of mind and joy of life. The new temples, even in Athens, were now usually dedicated to Isis, Serapis, Bendis, Adonis, or some other alien deity.

"Superstition spread while science reached its apogee. The number seven was unspeakably holy. There were seven planets, seven days of the week, seven Wonders, seven Ages of Man, seven heavens, seven gates of hell. Astrology was rejuvenated by commerce with Babylonia. People took it for granted that the stars were gods who ruled in detail the destinies of individuals and staes. Character, even thought, was determined by the star or planet under wich one had been born.

"Education spread, but spread thin. As in all intellectual ages it stressed knowledge more than character, and produced masses of half-educated people who, uprooted from labor and the land, moved about in unplaced discontent like loosened cargo in the ship of state.

"Sexual morality was relaxed even beyond the loose standards of the Periclean age. Homosexualism remained popular. The courtesan still reigned. Dances of naked women were accepted as part of the mores, and were performed before a Macedonian king."

We have to keep reminding ourselves that we are reading Ancient History.

Robby

Shasta Sills
July 25, 2003 - 03:24 pm
When you study history, it's probably easier to find similarities than uniqueness. Humans don't change that much. They just follow the same old courses of action over and over.

Percivel
July 25, 2003 - 04:50 pm
>When you study history, it's probably easier to find similarities than uniqueness. Humans don't change that much. They just follow the same old courses of action over and over. <<


Oh, that it should be that simple! If this be true, there would be no democracy. The democracy as demonstrated by the Greeks would not have changed as it did in Rome and later in Great Britain.

Perhaps changes do not take place as quickly as we would hope, but even with set backs, the growth toward human freedom and dignity has progressed.

robert b. iadeluca
July 25, 2003 - 05:06 pm
We will all enjoy the next section but especially those here who participated in Our Oriental Heritage.

Hellenism and the Orient

Justin
July 25, 2003 - 05:48 pm
It would be helpful, I think, if we all tried to make contributions rather than simply attacking what others have posted. If one disagrees with something that has been said it is well to disagree with the material and not the person who posted. Conversation can be successfully conducted if all follow the rules of courtesy and concern for the feelings of others.

Justin
July 25, 2003 - 06:03 pm
Hellenism in art, particularly in sculpture and architecture, resulted in a hybrid product. A little of Greece, a little of Etruria, a little of Rome, blended and formed by a Greek artist in Rome, produced an Hellenic result. Some Greek artists simply made copies of classical objects, but others, more innovative, were influenced by a resident population and it's predecessors as well as by their own culture. Similar results occurred in Ionia, and the Middle East. Alexander's advance to India through the valleys of the Tigris and Euphrates left Greeks and Greek artists scattered throughout the Middle East and their products are more available to us than are those of the Classical period.

robert b. iadeluca
July 25, 2003 - 07:20 pm
"As we move from the mainland through the Aegean into the Greek settlements in Asia and Egypt, we are surprised to find a fresh and flourishing life, and we perceive that the Hellenistic age saw not so much the decay as the dissemination of Greek civilization. From the end of the Peloponnesian War a stream of Greek soldiers and immigrants had entered Asia. Alexander's conquests widened this stream by offering new opportunities and avenues to Hellenic enterprise."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 26, 2003 - 04:08 am
"Commerce was the life of Hellenistic economy. It made the great fortunes, built the great cities, and employed a growing proportion of the expanding population. Money transactions now almost completely replaced the barter that had survived for four centuries the coinage of Croesus.

"Egypt, Rhodes, Seleucia, Pergamum, and other governments issued currencies sufficiently stable and similar to facilitate international trade. Bankers provided public and private credit. Ships were larger, made four to six knots per hour, and shortened voyages by crossing the open sea.

"On land the Seleucids developed and extended the great highways left as part of Persia's legacy to the east. Caravan routes converged from inner Asia upon Seleucia, and opened out thence to Damascus, Berytus (Beirut), and Antioch.

"Enriched by trade, and enriching it in turn, populous centers rose there and at Babylon, Tyre, Tarsus, Xanthus, Rhodes, Halicarnassus, Miletus, Ephesus, Smyrna, Permamum, Byzantium, Cyzicus, Apamea, Heracleia, Amisus, Sinope, Panticapaeum, Olbia, Lyimacheia, Ahydos, Thesalonica (Salonika), Chaleis, Delos, Corinth, Ambracia, Epidamnus (Durazzo), Taras, Neapolis (Naples), Rome Massalia, Emporium, Panormus (Palermo), Syracuse, Utica, Carthage, Cyrene, And Alexandria.

"One busy web of trade bound together Spain under Carthage and Rome, Carthage under Hamilear, Syracuse under Hieron II, Rome under the Scipios, Macedonia under the Antigonids, Greece under the Leagues, Egypt under the Ptolemies, the Near East under the Seleucids, India under the Mauryas, and China under the Hans.

"The routes from China passed through Turkestan, Bactria, and Persia, or over the Aral, Caspian, and Boack Seas. The routes from India passed through Afghanistan and Persia to Seleucia, or through Arabia and Petra to Jerusalem and Damascus, or across the Indian Ocean to Adaria (Aden)then through the Red Sea to Arsinoe (Suez), and thence to Alexandria.

"It was for control of the last two routes that the Seleucid and Ptolemaic dynasties fought those 'Syrian Wars' that finally weakened them both to the point of falling vassal to Rome."

I had no idea whatsoever of the Greek "world" influence! I wonder if any of the young people of those days fought against the international business trade and against "globalization."

Any comments here?

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
July 26, 2003 - 04:35 am
How could the populace in those areas at that time know about globalization if they didn't have television to inform them of what was going on in the rest of the world. Only people in the higher circles were informed because the masses did not have the level of education and the information tools that we have today.

Masses can revolt against oppression but in those days food was the most crucial concern. Today, young people are aware of globalization through the media. Without television to tell them what is going on in the far corners of the world the masses would see no need to protest against globalization if their life was enriched by it.

The globalization protesters are not the ones who personally suffer but they are protesting against the empoverishment of the poor by rich. They are protesting against injustice.

Eloïse

robert b. iadeluca
July 26, 2003 - 04:53 am
"The East was not conquered.

"It was too deeply and anciently itself to yield its soul. The masses of the people continued to speak their native tongues, to pursue their long-accustomed ways, and to worship their ancestral gods.

"Beyond the Mediterranean coasts the Greek veneer grew thin, and such Lennenic centers as Seleucia on the Tigris were Greek islands in an Oriental sea. There was no such fusion of races and cultures as Alexander had dreamed of. There were Greeks and Greek civilization on the top and a medley of Asiatic peoples and cultures underneath. The qualities of the Greek intellect made no entry into the Oriental mind. The energy and love of novelty, the zest for worldliness and the passion for perfection, the expressiveness and individualism of the Greek effected no change in the Orental character.

"On the contrary, as time moved on, Eastern ways of thought and feeling surged up from below into the ruling Greeks, and through them flowed westward to transform the 'pagan' world. In Babylon the patient Semitic merchant and the temple banker regained ascendancy over the volatile Hellene, preserved the cuneiform writing, and forced back the Greek language into second place in the business world. Astrology and alchemy corrupted Greek astronomy and physics. Oriental monarchy proved more powerful than Greek democracy, and finally impressed its form upon the West. Greek kings and Roman emperors became gods in the manner of the East, and the Asiatic theory of the divine right of kings passed down through Rome and Constantinople into modern Europe.

"Through Zeno the East insinuated its quietism and fatalism into Greek philosophy. Through a hundred channels it poured its mysticism and its piety into the vacuum left by the decay of the orthodox Greek faith. The Greek readily accepted the gods of the Orient as essentially identical with his own. But as the Greek did not really believe, and the Asiatic did, the Oriental god survived while the Greek god died.

"The Greeks offered the East philosophy, the East offered Greece religion. Religion won because philosophy was a luxury for the few. Religion was a consolation for the many. In the rhythmic historic alternation of belief and unbelief, mysticism and naturalism, religion and science, religion returned to power because it recognized the secret helplessness and loneliness of man, and gave him inspiration and poetry. A disillusioned, exploited, war-wearied world was glad to believe and hope again.

"The least expected and most profound effect of Alexander's conquest was the Orientalization of the European soul."

What a powerful passage! The more I read and learn about The Life of Greece (especially these last few paragraphs), the more I continue to think about the present.

Robby

tooki
July 26, 2003 - 05:39 am
As the Durants say, history knows only continunity and change. That they are able to demonstrate this flow through the static medium of words is remarkable. Previous to participating in this discussion group my knowledge of history was all of beginnings and endings. Like, Greek freedom ended and the Roman Empire began. I now understand this to be, if not wrong, at least wrong headed. My concept of the organic flow, "like nature," of history has greatly altered my perception and understanding of events transpiring in today's world. Boy, am I developing the long view!

As examples of old facts in new understandings: I now understand better the relationship of the Ptolemic line in Egypt to old Egypt. And I now understand how it was that democracy went underground. I think that Alexander's legacy was the line of unbroken monarchy which inhibited the growth of any democracy until the French Revolution.

Time doesn't march on; it flows on, sometimes like a swift river, sometimes like a placid stream.

robert b. iadeluca
July 26, 2003 - 06:17 am
"The history of Judea in the Hellenistic age turns on two conflicts -- the eternal struggle between Seleucid Asia and Prolemaic Egypt for Palestine, and the internal struggle between the Hellenic and the Hebraic ways of life.

"The first conflict is dead history, and may be briefly dismissed. Matthew Arnold believed the second conflict to be one of the lasting cleavages of human feeling and thought.

"In the original division of Alexander's empire Judea (i.e. Palestine south of Samaria) had been awarded to Ptolemy. The Seleucids never accepted this decision. They saw themselves separated from the Mediterranean, and coveted the wealth that might come from the trade tht passed through Damascus andf Jerusalem. In the resultant wars Ptolemy I won, and Judea remained subject to the Ptolemies for more than a century (312-198).

"Judea was left a large measure of self-government under the hereditary high priest of Jerusalem and the Great Assembly. This gerousia, or Council of Elders, which Ezra and Nehemiah had formed two centuries back, became both a senate and a supreme court.

"The basis of Judaism was religion -- the idea of a surveillant and upholding deity entered into every phase and moment of Jewish life. Morals and manners were ordained by the gerousia in strictness and detail. Entertainments and games were few and rstrained. Intermarriage with non-Jews was forbidden. So were celibacy and infanticide. Hence the Jews bred abundantly, and reared all their children. Despite war and famine their numbers grew throughout antiquity, until in the time of Caesar there were some seven million Jews in the Roman Empire."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 26, 2003 - 07:22 am
"The bulk of the Jewish population before the Maccabean era was agricultural. The Jews were not yet a nation of traders. Even as late as the first century A.D. Josephus wrote: 'We are not a commercial people.' The great trading peoples of the age were the Phoenicians, the Arabs, and the Greeks.

"Into this simple and puritan life the invading Greeks brought all the distractions and temptations of a refined and epicurean civilization. Around Judea was a ring of Greek settlements and cities -- Samaria, Neapolis (Shechem), Gaza, Ascalon, Azotus (Ashdod), Joppa (Jaffa), Apollonia, Doris, Sycamina, Polis (Haifa), and Acco (Acre).

"Just across the Jordan was a leagued decapolis of Greek cities -- Damascus, Gadara, Gerasa, Dium, Philadelphia, Pella, Raphia, Hippo, Scythopolis, and Canetha. Each of these had Greek institutions and establishments -- temples to Greek gods and goddesses, schools and academies, gymnasiums and palaestras, and nude games.

"From such cities and from Alexandria, Antioch, Delos, and Rhodes, Greeks and Jews came to Jerusalem, bringing the infection of a Hellenism devoted to science and philosophy, art and literature, beauty and pleasure, song and dance, drinking and feasting, athletics and courtesans and handsome boys, along with a gay sophistication that questioned all morals, and an urbane skepticism that undermined all supernatural belief.

"How could Jewish youth resist these invitations to delight, this easy liberation from a thousand irksome restraints? Young wits among the Jews began to laugh at the priests as moneygrubbers, and at their pious followers as fools who allowed old age to come upon them without having ever known the pleasures, luxuries, and subtleties of life. Rich Jews were also won over, for they could afford to yield to temptation.

"Jews who sought appointments from Greek officials felt it the part of policy to speak the Greek language, to live in the Greek way, even to say a few kind words to the Greek gods."

I am anxious to hear some comments by Bubble.

Robby

Bubble
July 26, 2003 - 07:35 am
I am first going to comment on your post elsewhere about your anxiety for your camera: Maybe you need a "camea": a special blessing on animal skin written by a learned rabbi, to veer all bad luck aside



Your post #288 shows the actual and sempiternal conflict in Israel where so many long to separate religion form the state and where the very orthodox stubbornly insist that since it is a Jewish state, no foreign ways could be admissible - such as not respecting the shabbat laws in all their aspects. Coersion has never been the way to peaceful cohexistence, in religion as in anything else.



Forgoing the constraints leads to assimilation of course. Would the Jewish way survive assimilation where it not for the orthodoxes? I really can't say, but I doubt it. The Reformists Jews are trying their best to find a middle way, History will tell. Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
July 26, 2003 - 07:47 am
I'll take any blessing I can get!!

Robby

Tejas
July 26, 2003 - 12:30 pm
Thanks very much for letting me know where you are in the discussion. Now I am going to settle down and try to keep up with the discussion.

The one quote about commerce is very apt. Commerce is the lifeblood of civilization at all times and all places.

robert b. iadeluca
July 26, 2003 - 12:46 pm
Tejas:--We are currently discussing Hellenism and the Jews.

"Against this powerful assault upon both the intellect and the senses, three forces defended the Jews -- The persecution under Antiochus IV, The protection of Rome, and The power and prestige of a Law believed to be divinely revealed.

"Like antibodies gathering to attack an infection, the more religious among the Jews formed themselves into a sect called Chasidim -- the Pious. They began (about 300 B.C.) with a simple pledge to avoid wine for a given period. Later, by the inevitable psychology of war, they went to the extremes of Puritanism, and frowned upon all physical pleasure as a surrender to Satan and the Greeks.

"The Greeks marveled at them, and classified them with the strange 'gymnosophists,' or nude ascetic philosophers, whom Alexander's army had come upon in India. Even the common Jew deprecated the severe religiosity of the Chasidim, and sought for some middle way.

"Perhaps a compromise would have been reached had it not been for the attempt of Antichus Epiphanes to force Hellenism upon Judea by persuasion of the sword."

Robby

Bubble
July 26, 2003 - 01:32 pm
I never knew the Chassidic movement was that old! They are still very much alive and active.



My historical memory about Antiochus Epiphanes is more than hazy. For me as for all the local kids here, he has always been the evil personified, even used as a threat for naughty children.



One continues to learn every day... Bubble

Justin
July 26, 2003 - 02:56 pm
Bubble; The diamond business in New York is alive with Chasidic Jews. The corner of 42nd Street and Fifth Avenue is one mass of black hats during the business day. I have often wondered what rules they adhere to socially and religiously. They dress so somberly. What pleasures have they given up? Unlike the Shakers, they seem to breed ok.

robert b. iadeluca
July 26, 2003 - 03:09 pm
"In 198 Antiochus III defeated Ptolemy V, and made Judea a part of the Seleucid Empire. Tired of the Egyptian yoke, the Jews supported Antiochus, and welcomed his capture of Jerusalem as a liberation.

"But his successor, Antiochus IV, thought of Judea as a source of revenue. He was planning great campaigns, and needed funds. He ordered the Jews to pay in taxes one third of their grain crops and one half of the fruit of their trees.

"Ignoring the usual inheritance of the office, he appointed as high priest the sycophantic Jason, who represented the Hellenizing party in Jerusalem and sought permission to establish Greek institutions in Judea. Antiochus heard him gladly, for he was disturbed by the diversity and persistence of Oriental cults in Greek Asia, and dreamed of unifying his polyglot empire through one law and one faith. When Jason went about these matters with insufficient haste Antiochus replaced him with Menelaus, who gave him larger promises and a fatter bribe.

"Under Menelaus Yahweh was identified with Zeus. Temple vessels were sold to raise funds, and in some Jewish communities sacrifices were offered to Hellenic deities. A gymnasium was opened in Jerusalem, and Jewish youths, even priests, took part, naked, in athletic games.

"Some young Jews, in the ardor of their Hellenism, underwent operations to remedy the physiological shortcomings that might reveal their race."

Comments, please?

Robby

tooki
July 26, 2003 - 08:47 pm
Two questions: 1. What would have been the operation, availble then, without anesthetic, to repair the "physiological shortcomings?" 2. "...of their race." Race? What could Durant have meant?

Justin
July 26, 2003 - 10:31 pm
How does one remake a foreskin?

Bubble
July 27, 2003 - 02:11 am
Justin, one of the strongest commandments is to breed and multiply (my traduction, I don't remember the English version). And yes, black hats, black coats, dresses to the ground with long sleeves and opaque stockings, hair covering for women is their norm even here in 40C temperature.



Robby we have had riots because of publicity on buses showing girls in bathing suits. They even burned the buses. It probably is one of the reason this section of the population will not own a TV or allow their children to use internet.



About the surgery, it is just plastic surgery. lol
Tooki, they probably got drunk to deaden the senses before it being performed.

robert b. iadeluca
July 27, 2003 - 03:33 am
"Shocked by these developments, and feeling their religion challenged in its very existence, the majority of the Jewish people went over to the side and view of the Chasidim. When Antiochus IV ws expelled from Egypt by Popilus (168), the news reached Jerusalem in the form of a report that he had been killed. The rejoicing Jews deposed his appointees, massacred the leaders of the Hellenizing party, and cleansed the Temple of what they felt to be pagan abominations.

"Antiochus, not dead but humiliated, moneyless, and convinced that the Jews had obstructed his campaign against Egypt and were conspiring to return Judea to the Ptolemies, marched up to Jerusalem -- slaughtered Jews of either sex by the thousand -- desecrated and looted the Temple -- appropriated for the royal coffers its golden altar, its vessels, and its treasuries -- restored Menelaus to supreme power -- and gave orders for the compulsory Hellenization of all Jews (167).

"He commanded that the Temple be rededicated as a shrine to Zeus, that a Greek altar be built over the old one, and that the usual sacrifices be replaced with a sacrifice of swine. He forbade the keeping of the Sabbath or the Jewish festivals, and made circumcision a capital crime. Throughout Judea the old religion and its rites were interdicted, and the Greek ritual was made compulsory on pain of death. Every Jew who refused to eat pork, or who was found possessing the Book of the Law, was to be jailed or killed, and the Book wherever found was to be burned.

"Jerusalem itself was put to the flames, its walls were destroyed, and its Jewish population was sold into slavery. Foreign people were brought in to resettle the site, a new fortress was tuilt upon Mt. Zion, and a garrison of troops was left in it to rule the city in the name of the King.

"At times, it seems Antiochus thought of establishing and requiring the worship of him as a god."

Most of us have known through the Bible of the Roman domination of the Jews but, speaking for myself, I had not known of the Greek domination.

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
July 27, 2003 - 07:09 am

robert b. iadeluca
July 27, 2003 - 07:21 am
"There is always, in any society, a minority whose instincts rejoice in the permission to persecute. It is a release from civilization."

- - - Will Durant

robert b. iadeluca
July 27, 2003 - 07:33 am
"The orgy of persecution became intensified as it proceeded. The agents of Antiochus, having put an end to all visible expression of Judaism in Jerusalem, passed like a searching fire into the towns and villages. Everywhere they gave the people a choice between death and participation in Hellenic worship, which included the eating of sacrificial swine. All synagogues and Jewish schools were closed. Those who refused to work on the Sabbath were outlawed as rebels.

"On the day of the Bacchanalia the Jews were compelled to deck themselves with ivy like the Greeks, to take part in the processions, and to sing wild wongs in honor of Dionysus.

"Many Jews conformed to the demands, waiting for the storm to pass. Many others fled into caves or mountain retreats, lived on clandestine gleanings from the fields, and resolutely carried on the ordinances of Jewish life. The Chasidim circulated among them, preaching courage and resistance.

"A detachment of royal troops, coming upon some caves in which thousands of Jews -- men, women, and children -- were hiding, ordered them to come forth. The Jews refused. Because it was the Sabbath, they would not move the stones that might have blocked the entrance to the caves. The soldiers attacked with fire and sword, killing many of the refugees and asphyxiating the remainder with smoke. Women who had circumcized their newborn sons were cast with their infants over the city walls to death.

"The Greeks were surprised to find the strength of the old faith. Not for centuries had they seen such loyalty to an idea. The stories of martyrdom went from mouth to mouth, filled books like the First and Second Maccabees, and gave to Christianity the prototypes of its martyrs and its martyrology.

"Judaism, which had been near assimilation, became intensified in religious and national consciousness, and withdrew into a protective isolation."

I can only repeat that the more I read and learn about our past, the more I find myself examining the present.

Robby

Bubble
July 27, 2003 - 08:00 am
This is the story of Massada too! Like I heard it and saw in sound and light when I first came to Israel, Like I read in Joseph Flavius too.



members.tripod.com/~dudi/massada.html

tooki
July 27, 2003 - 09:08 am
Is there a psychological truth here about persecutation intensifying religious faith? Some groups that come to mind, besides the Jews, are the Puritans, the Mormans and polygamy, the Catholics in Elizabethean England - the list could go on and on.

robert b. iadeluca
July 27, 2003 - 09:26 am
"Among the Jews who in those days fled from Jerusalem were Mattathias -- of the family of Masmonai, of the tribe of Aaron -- and his five sons -- Johannan Caddis, Simon, Judas, Eleazar, and Jonathan.

"When Apelles, an agent of Antiochus, came to Modin, where these six had sought refuge, he summoned the inhabitants to repudiate the Law and sacrifice to Zeus. The aged Mattathias came forward with his sons and said: 'Even should all the people in the kingdom obey the order to depart from the faith of their fathers, I and my sons will abide by the Covenant of our ancestors.'

"As one of the Jews approached the altar to make the required sacrifice, Mattathias slew him, and slew also the King's commissioner. Then he said to the people: 'Whoever is zealous for the Law, and wishes to support the Covenant, let him follow me.'

"Many of the villagers retired with him and his sons to the mountains of Ephraim. There they were joined by a small band of young rebels, and by such of the Chasidim as were still alive.

"Soon afterward Mattathias died, having designated as captain of his band his son Judas, called Maccabee. Judas was a warrior whose courage equaled his piety. Before every battle he prayed like a saint, but in the hour of battle 'he was like a lion in his rage.'

"The little army 'lived in the mountains after the manner of beasts, feeding on herbs.' Every now and then it descended upon a neighboring village, killed backsliders, pulled down pagan altars, and 'what children soever they found uncircumcized, those they circumcized valiantly.'

"These things being reported to Antiochus, he sent an army of Syrian Greeks to destroy the Maccabean force. Judas met them in the pass of Emmaus. Though the Greeks were trained mercenaries fully armed, and Judas' band was poorly armed and clad, the Jews won a complete victory (166). Antiochus sent a large force, whose general was so confident that he brought slave merchants with him to buy the Jews whom he expected to capture, and posted in the towns the prices that he would ask. Judas defeated these troops at Mizpah, and so decisively that Jerusalem fell into his hands without resistance.

"He removed all pagan altars and ornaments from the Temple, cleansed and rededicated it, and restored the ancient service amid the acclaim of the returning orthodox Jews (164)."

While I was away at war, I received regular letters from my aunt who always wrote "Mizpah" at the bottom. I never knew what that meant and never thought to ask her when I returned home.

Robby

tooki
July 27, 2003 - 09:28 am
Apparently the Chasidum of the time under discussion are not related to the current day Hasidim. This article clarifies things, I think. The first 10 short paragraphs explain things, although the article goes on forever.

Chasidum and Hasidam

Please say if this posting is incorrect or if I have misinterpreted.

robert b. iadeluca
July 27, 2003 - 01:41 pm
"As the regent Lysias advanced with a new army to recapture the capital, the news came -- this time true -- that Antiochus was dead (163). Desiring to be free for action elsewhere, Lysias offered the Jews full religious freedom on condition that they lay down their arms.

"The Chasidim consented. The Maccabeans refused. Judas announced that Judea, to be safe from further persecutions, must achieve political as well as religious liberty. Intoxicated with power, the Maccabeans now took their turn at persecutions, pursuing the Hellenizing faction vengefully not only in Jerusalem but in the cities that bordered the frontier.

"In 161 Judas defeated Nicanor at Adasa, and strengthened himself by making an alliance with Rome. But in the same year, fighting against great odds at Elasa, he was slain. His brother Jonathan carried on the war bravely, but was himself killed at Acco (143).

"The only surviving brother, Simon supported by Rome, won from Demetrius II, in 142, an acknowledgement of Judean independence. By popular decree Simon was appointed both high priest and general. As these offices were made hereditary in his family, he became the founder of the Hasmonean dynasty.

"The first year of his reign was counted as the beginning of a new era, and an issue of coinage proclaimed the heroic rebirth of the Jewish state."

Durant has mentioned Rome twice here and apparently he is gradually moving us toward the West.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 27, 2003 - 05:12 pm
And now --

Egypt and the West

Justin
July 27, 2003 - 11:01 pm
It is interesting that this period of Jewish persecution by the Greeks and the ensuing successful resistance by the Maccabeans is not in the Jewish Canon. We find it in the Apocrypha in the five books of the Maccabees,and in Josephus. In these works we learn about the activities of Phillip and Alexander. After the death of Alexander, his generals carved up the empire. Egypt and Judea fell to General Ptolemy. General Seleucid took over Babylonia and Syria. It was in Ptolemy's reign that the Septuagint was written in Alexandria.

robert b. iadeluca
July 28, 2003 - 04:06 am
"The smallest but richest morsel of Alexander's legacy was allotted to the ablest and wisest of his generals. With characteristic loyalty -- perhaps as a visible sanction of his authority -- Ptolemy, son of Lagus, brought the body of the dead king to Memphis, and had it entombed in a sarcophagus of gold. He brought with him also Alexander's occasional mistress Thais, married her, and had by her two sons.

"He was a plain, blunt soldier capable both of generous feeling and of realistic thinking. While other inheritors of Alexander's realm spent half their lives in war, and dreamed of undivided sovereighty, Ptolemy devoted himself to consolidating his position in an alien country, and to promoting Egyptian agriculture, commerce, and industry.

"In his old age he found time to write astonishingly truthful commentaries on his campaigns and to establish, about 290, the Museum and Library that were to make the fame of Alexandria. In 285, feeling his eighty-two years, he appointed his second son, Ptolemy Philadelphus, to the throne, yielded the government to him, and took his place as a subject in the young king's court. Two years later he died.

"Ptolemy Philadelphus died in 246, after a long and largely beneficent reign. Ptolemy III Euergetes was another Thorthmes III, intent on conquering the Near East. He took Sardis and Babylon, marched as far as India, and so effectually disorganized the Seleucid Empire that it crumbled at the touch of Rome. Ptolemy IV Philopator so loved his father than he imitated his wars and his triumphs. The Egyptians, now armed and conscious of their strength, began from this time onward to break down the authority of the Greeks on the Nile. Philopator gave himself to amusement, spent much time on his spacious pleasure boat, introduced the Bacchanalia into Egypt, and half persuaded himself that he was descended from Dionysus. In 205 he wife was killed by his mistress, and shortly afterward Philopator himself passed away.

"By far the most interesting aspect of Ptolemaic Egypt is its extensive experiment in state socialism. Royal ownership of the land had long been a sacred custom in Etypt. Doubtless this system of socialism had been evolved because the conditions of tillage in Egypt required more co-operation, more unison of action in time and space, than individual ownership cold be expected to produce.

"Industry operated under similar conditions. The Ptolemies opened up valuable gold deposits in Nubia, and had a stable gold coinage. All commerce was controlled and regulated by the government. Retail traders were usually state agents distributing state goods.

"The Ptolemaic was the most efficiently organized government in the Hellenistic world. It took its national form from Egypt and Persia, its municipal form from Greece, and passed them onto Imperial Rome."

My knowledge of history has been sorely lacking over my lifetime. I knew that at one time the Ptolemies had been Kings of Egypt but never knew that they were Greek. Always in my mind I saw the wonders of Ancient Greece taking place in one small nation called Greece and had no idea of the extent of influence of this civilization around the Mediterranean basin.

This is why I always wanted to read Durant's eleven volumes and am so grateful that you folks are willing to read them and discuss them with me.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
July 28, 2003 - 05:00 am

And thank you, Robby, for making this journey through history so worthwhile.

Ptolemaic Kingdom -- Coins

robert b. iadeluca
July 28, 2003 - 05:52 am
"Probably a fifth of Alexandria's population was Jewish. As far back as the seventh century there had been Hebrew settlements in Egypt. Many Jewish traders had entered in the wake of the Persian conquest. Alexander had urged Jews to emigrate to Alexandria and had, according to Josephus, offered them equal political and economic rights with the Greeks.

"Ptolemy I, after taking Jerusalem, carried with him into Egypt thousands of Jewish captives, who were freed by his successor. At the same time he invited well-to-do Hebrews to establish their homes and businesses in Alexandria.

"By the beginnong of the Christian era there were a million Jews in Egypt. A large number of these lived in the Jewish quarter of the capital. It was no ghetto, for the Jews were free to live in any quarter but the Brucheum, which was restricted to official families and their servitors. They chose their own gerousia or senate, and followed their own worship.

"In 169 the high priest Onias III built a great temple at Leontopolis, a suburb of Alexandrdia, and Ptolemy VI, his personal friend, assigned the revenues of Heliopolis for its maintenance. Such temples served as schools and meeting places as well as for religious services. Hence they were called by the Greek-speaking Jews synagogai, i.e. places of assembly. Since few Egyptian Jews after the second or third generation in Egypt knew Hebrew, the reading of the Law was followed by an interpretation in Greek.

"Out of these explanations and applications rose the custom of preaching a sermon on a text. Out of the ritual came the first forms of the Catholic Mass."

Enlightening. Most enlightening. And so the word "synagogue" which most of us associated with the Jewish people was originally a Greek word. Interesting.

Durant was more than just a historian. He makes it live for us more than any history teacher I ever had.

Robby

tooki
July 28, 2003 - 06:05 am
How nice not to be alone again!

Alexandria

It really was grand.

robert b. iadeluca
July 28, 2003 - 06:18 am
A magnificent detailed link, Tooki. Thank you!

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 28, 2003 - 06:55 am
"This religious and racial separation combined with economic rivalries to arouse, toward the end of this period, an anti-Semitic movement in Alexandria. The Greeks and Egyptians alike were habituated to the union of church and state, and frowned upon the cultural independence of the Jews. Furthermore, they felt the competition of the Jewish artisan or businessman and resented his energy, tenacity, and skill.

"When Rome began to import Egyptian grain, it was the Jewish merchants of Alexandria who carried the cargoes in their fleets. The Greeks, perceiving their failure to Hellenize the Jews, feared for their own future in a state where the majority remained persistently Oriental, and bred so vigorously. Forgetting the legislation of Pericles, they complained that the Jewish law forbade mixed marriges, and that the Jews for the most part kept to themselves. Anti-semitic literature multiplied.

"Manetho, the Egyptian historian, gave currency to the story that the Jews had been expelled from Egypt, centuries back, because they had been afflicted with scrofula or leprosy. Feeling mounted on both sides until, in the first century of the Christian era, it broke out into destructive violence.

"The Jews did what they could to allay the resentment against their amixia -- their social separation -- and their success. Though they clung to their religion, they spoke Greek, studied and wrote about Greek literature, and translated their sacred books and their histories into Greek. To acquaint the Greeks with the Jewish religious tradition, and to enable the Jew who knew no Hebrew to read his own scriptures, a group of Alexandrian Jewish scholars begin, probably under Ptolemy II, a Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible.

"The kings favored the undertaking in the hope that it would make the Jews of Egypt more independent of Jerusalem, and would lessen the flow of Jewish-Egyptian funds to Palestine.

"Legend told how Ptolemy Philadelphus, at the suggestion of Demetrius of Phalerum, had invited some seventy Jewish scholars to come from Judea about 250 to translate the scriptures of their people -- how the King had lodged each of them in a separate room on Pharos -- and had kept them without intercommunication until each had made his own rendering of the Pentateuch -- how all the seventy versions, when finished, agreed word for word, proving the divine inspiration of the text and of the trasnlators -- how the King rewarded the scholars with costly presents of gold -- and how from these circumstances the Greek version of the Hebrew Bible came to be known as the hermeneia kata tous hebdomekonta -- the Interpretation according to the Seventy -- in Latin, Interpretatio Septuaginta (sc. Seniorum) -- in a word, the 'Septuagint.'

"Whatever the process of translation, the Pentateuch seems to have appeared in Greek before the close of the third century, and the Prophetic books in the second. This was the Bible used by Philo and St. Paul."

Again, I find this most enlightening and I am intrigued by the "clash" between the Eastern and upcoming Western cultures.

Robby

Shasta Sills
July 28, 2003 - 09:05 am
Who was it who destroyed the Alexandria library? This is not clear to me. Was it Christian monks?

robert b. iadeluca
July 28, 2003 - 12:25 pm
"The process of Hellenization in Egypt failed as completely with the natives as with the Jews. Outside of Alexandria the Egyptians sullenly maintained their own religion, their own dress or nudity, their own immemorial ways. The Greeks thought of themselves as conquerors, not as fellow men. They did not bother to build Greek cities south of the Delta, or to leaarn the language of the people. Their laws did not recognize the marriage of an Egyptian with a Greek.

"Ptolemy I tried to unite the Greek and native faiths by identifying Serapis and Zeus. Later Ptolemies encouraged the cult of themselves as gods to offer a common and convenient object of worship to their heterogeneous population.

"Those Egyptians who were not courting office paid little attention to these artificial cults. The Egyptian priests, shorn of their wealth and power, and dependent for their sustenance upon grants of money from the state, waited patiently for the Greek wave to recede.

"In the end it was not Hellenism that won in Alexandria, but mysticism. Now were laid the foundations of Neo-Platonism and the medley of promissory cults tht competed for the Alexandrian soul in the centuries that surrounded the birth of Christ. Osiris as Serapis became the favorite god of the later Egyptinans, and of many Egyptian Greeks. Isis regained popularity as the goddess of women and motherhood.

"When Christianity came, neither the clergy nor the people found it impossible to change Isis into Mary, and Serapis into Christ."

Mysticism again wins out over philosophy.

Robby

Justin
July 28, 2003 - 07:40 pm
Robby; We talked about the Septuagint back in "Our Oriental Heritage". Now we can see why it came about.

Tooki; It would be wonderful if you would post the Alexandrian Library material in the Religious Evils Discussion. The destruction of the library is probably the greatest sin ever committed and that by religious clerics.

tooki
July 28, 2003 - 08:53 pm
While this site doesn't have great visuals, it says a lot to me now that I know something about the ancient world. Here is a lighthearted view of it.

The Seven Wonders of the World

I wonder when folks stopped counting?

Justin
July 28, 2003 - 09:52 pm
Tooki; Thank You.

robert b. iadeluca
July 29, 2003 - 03:28 am
"The decline of Greek civilization was longest deferred in the sphere of art. Music remained popular in all classes of the population. Fine buildings developed beyond any precedent. Painting is usually the last great art to mature in a civilization. Greece continued to rank its painters as high as its sculptors and architects, perhaps higher. Never has statuary been more abundant than in the Hellenistic age.

"No student with a mind of his own will join in any sweeping judgment about Hellenistic decay. Youth cannot last forever, nor are its charms supreme. The life of Greece, like every life, had to have a natural subsidence, and accept a ripe old age.

"There Rome would find it, and pass it on."

Any comments?

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
July 29, 2003 - 04:52 am
Tooki, thanks for the wonderful link to the wonders of the world, ancient and modern. I count myself fortunate to have seen 19 of the 100 modern wonders listed. We don't have enough of one lifetime to visit and admire the beauties of the world.

Malryn (Mal)
July 29, 2003 - 05:22 am

And I have not seen any except the New York skyline and the Statue of Liberty.

Below is a link to Ancient Greek music which can be listened to as midis or Real Player files. Keep in mind that the scales used were not the scale of today. I am mulling over the idea that music and art were among the last things to decline in the Greek civilization. Both can be controversial, so it isn't lack of controversy that made this so. What is it then?

Ancient Greek Music

tooki
July 29, 2003 - 06:15 am
I know we're bopping along at a fast clip here, but I would like to comment on the similairities between the two Libraries.

As did the Library at Alexandria, the Library of Congress functions as a "library of record." LC is supposed to have a copy of every book published in the United States. That was easy when Jefferson created it; I doubt that it is still a mandate. Jefferson, that Greekophile, also created the classification system. And the head of the LC is frequently a poet, as was required at Alexandria. So, here's one more Greek thing we encounter in our daily life without realizing its orgins.

Bubble
July 29, 2003 - 06:26 am
These last pages in SoC are so vibrant for me, the names in Cairo as if I had lived there. My mother who was a Cairote spoke often of the beauty of Alexandria where she went for leisure with her friends as a highschool senior, she told me of Heliopolis where they were having an ice cream or shopping for special sweet treats for a party. It seems as if time stands still in Egypt!
Bubble

Tejas
July 29, 2003 - 11:04 am
There is very intersting book on the history of the Library at Alexandria. Actually, it was destroyed several times. Once by accident, then by the Christians, and then by the Muslims. When the Muslims conquered Alexandria, they said that if it wasn't in the Koran it was not necessary.

robert b. iadeluca
July 29, 2003 - 01:50 pm
The Climax of Greek Science

robert b. iadeluca
July 29, 2003 - 01:57 pm
"The fifth century saw the zenith of Greek literature, the fourth the flowering of philosophy, the third the culmination of science.

"The kings proved more tolerant and helpful to research than the democracies. Alexander sent to the Greek cities of the Asiatic coast camel loads of Babylonian astronomical tablets, most of which were soon translated into Greek. The Ptolemies built the Museum for advanced studies, and gathered the science as well as the literature of the Mediterranean cultures into the great Library.

"The fading of frontiers and the establishment of a common language -- the fluid interchange of books and ideas -- the exhaustion of metaphysics and the weakening of the old theology -- the rise of a secularly minded commercial class in Alexandria, Rhodes, Antioch, Pergamum, and Syracuse -- the multiplication of schools, universities, obsservatories, and libraries -- combined with wealth, industry, and royal patronage to free science from philosophy, and to encourage it in its work of enlightening, enriching, and endangering the world."

Globalization? Please note the final word "endangering."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 29, 2003 - 02:44 pm
"The greatest of ancient scientists was born at Syracuse about 287 B.C., son of the astronomer Pheidias, and apparently cousin to Hieron II, the most enlightened ruler of his time. Like many other Hellenistic Greeks who were interested in science and could afford the expense, Archimedes went to Alexandria. There he studied under the successors of Euclid, and derived an inspiration for mathematics that gave him two boons -- an absorbed life and a sudden death.

"Returning to Syracuse, he devoted himself monastically to every branch of mathematical science. Often, like Newton, he neglected food and drink, or the care of his body, in order to pursue the consequences of a new theorem, or to draw figures in the oil on his body, the ashes on the hearth, or the sand with which Greek geometers were wont to strew their floors.

"He was not without humor. In what he considered his best book, The Sphere and the Cylinder, he deliberately inserted false propositions (so we are assured), partly to lay a joke upon the friends to whom he sent the manuscript, partly to ensnare poachers who like to appropriate other men's thoughts. Sometimes he amused himself with puzzles that brought him to the verge of inventing algebra, like the famous Cattle Problem tht so beguiled Lessing. Sometimes he made strange mechanisms to study the principles on which they operated.

"But his perennial interest and delight lay in pure science conceived as a key to the understanding of the universe rather than as a tool of practical construction or expanding wealth. He wrote not for pupils but for professional scholars, communicating to them in pithy monographs the abstruse conclusions of his research. All later antiquity was fascinated by the originality, depth, and clarity of these treatises.

"Some ascribe his simple and lucid explanations to his natural genius. Others think that these easy and unlabored pages were the result of incredible effort and toil."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 29, 2003 - 03:22 pm
Speaking of looking backward in time -- Bubble sent this out in an email.



CLOSE ENCOUNTER WITH MARS



Never again in your lifetime will the Red Planet be so spectacular.

This month and next, Earth is catching up with Mars, an encounter that will culminate in the closest approach between the two planets in recorded history. The next time Mars may come this close is in 2287.



Due to the way Jupiter's gravity tugs on Mars and perturbs its orbit, astronomers can only be certain that Mars has not come this close to Earth in the last 5,000 years but it may be as long as 60,000 years. The encounter will culminate on August 27th when Mars comes to within 34,649,589 miles and will be (next to the moon) the brightest object in the night sky. It will attain a magnitude of -2.9 and will appear 25.11 arc seconds wide. At a modest 75-power magnification Mars will look as large as the full moon to he naked eye.



Mars will be easy to spot. At the beginning of August, Mars will rise in the east at 10 p.m. and reach its azimuth at about 3 a.m. But by the end of August when the two planets are closest, Mars will rise at nightfall and reach its highest point in the sky at 12:30 a.m.



That's pretty convenient when it comes to seeing something that no human has seen in recorded history.



So mark your calendar at the beginning of August to see Mars grow progressively brighter and brighter throughout the month.



Share with your children and grandchildren. No one alive today will ever see this again.

Malryn (Mal)
July 29, 2003 - 07:44 pm

Archimedes

More about Archimedes

Archimedes Principle

robert b. iadeluca
July 30, 2003 - 02:26 am
"Perhaps Archimedes was led to the study of hydrostatics by an incident almost as famous as Newton's apple. King Hieron had given to a Syracusan Cellini some gold to be formed into a crown. When the crown was delivered it weighed as much as the gold. But some doubt arose whether the artist had made up part of the weight by using silver, keeping the saved gold for himself.

"Hieron turned over to Archimedes his suspicion and crown, presumably stipulating that the one sould be resolved without injuring the other. For weeks Archimedes puzzled over the problem. One day, as he stpped into a tub at the public baths, he noticed that the water overflowed according to the depth of his immersion, and that his body appeared to weigh -- or press downward -- less, the more it was submerged.

"His curious mind, exploring and utilizizng every experience, suddenly formulated the 'principle of Archimedes' -- that a floating body loses in weight an amount equal to the weight of the water which it displaces. Surmising that a submerged body would displace water according to its volume, and perceiving that this principle offered a test for the crown, Archimedes dashed out naked into the street and rushed to his dwelling, crying out 'Eureka!eureka! -- I have found it! I have found it!

"Home, he soon discovered that a given weight of silver, since it had more volume per weight than gold, displaced more water, when immersed, than an equal weight of gold. He observed also that the submerged crown displaced more water than a quantity of gold, equaling the crown in weight.

"He concluded that that the crown had been alloyed with some metal less dense than gold. By replacing gold with silver in the gold weight which he was using for comparison, until the compund displaced as much water as the crown, Archimedes was able to say just how much silver had been used in the crown, and how much gold had been stolen.

"But for the abundance and cheapness of slaves Archimedes might have been the head of a veritable Industrial Revolution."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 30, 2003 - 02:31 am
The Surrender of Philosophy

"Three strains merged in Greek philosophy -- the physical, the metaphysical, and the ethical. The physical culminated in Aristotle -- the metaphysical in Plato -- the ethical in Zeno of Citium.

"The physical development ended in the separation of science from philosophy in Archimedes and Hipparchus.

"The metaphysical ended in the skepticism of Pyrrho and the later Academy.

"The ethical remained until epicureanism and Stocism were conquered or absorbed by Christianity."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 30, 2003 - 03:26 am
"Amid this spreading Hellenistic culture Athens -- mother of much of it, mistress of most of it -- retained her leadership in two realms -- the drama and philosophy. The world was not too busy with war and revolutions, new sciences and new religions, the love of beauty and the quest of gold, to spare some time for the unanswerable but inescapable problems of truth and error -- matter and mind -- freedom and necessity -- nobility and baseness -- life and death. From all the cities of the Mediterranean young men made their way, often through a thousand hardships, to study in the halls and gardens where Plato and Arstotle had left almost living memories.

"At the Lyceum the industrious Theophrastus of Lesbos carried on the empirical tradition. The Peripatetics were scientists and scholars rather than philsophers. They devoted themselves to specialist research in zoology, botany, biography, and the history of science, philosophy, literature, and law.

"It is to Theophrastus that Atheniaeus attributes the tender sentiment that 'it is through modesty that beauty becomes beautiful.' Diogenes Laertius describes him as 'a most benevolent man, and very affable.'

"One of the few events in Theophrastus' life was the issuance of a state decree (307) requiring the assembly's approval in the selection of leaders for the philsophical schools. About the same time Agnonides indicted Theophrastus on the old charge of impiety. Theohrastus quietly left Athens. but so many students followed him that the storekeepers complained of a ruinous fall in trade.

"Within a year the decree was annulled, the indictment was withdrawn, and Theophrastus returned in triumph to preside over the Lyceum almost until his death at eight-five."

Showing again what happens when a legislature interferes with academia. Also showing the power of money (or lack thereof).

Robby

tooki
July 30, 2003 - 06:21 am
Post 672 notes that the industrial revolution didn't happen because of "the abundance and cheapness of slaves." I find it fascinating that it didn't happen then because all the ingredients were there. When it did happen, starting in England in the late 18th century, it certainly wasn't to improve the lot of the workers.

A different view is advanced in a book I'm currently fast forwarding: The industrial revolution happened when it did because, "...it had become profitable for a given society or group to provide men with the assistance of a machine so that they should produce more, not necessarily by working less or in better conditions."

As Marx began to notice, and the "Globeists" notice now, technology has not yet improved the lot of the workers, or should we say "slaves?"

robert b. iadeluca
July 30, 2003 - 05:03 pm
"The conflict betwen religion and philosophy had now seen three stages -- the attack on religion, as in the pre-Socratics -- the endeavor to replace religion with a natural ethic, as in Aristotle and Epicurus =-- and the return to religion in the Skeptics and Stoics -- a movement that culminated in Neo-Platonism and Christianity.

"A like sequence has occurred more than once in history and may be taking place today. Thales corresponds to Galileo -- Democritus to Hobbes -- the Sophists to the Encyclopedists -- Protagoras to Voltaire -- Aristotle to Spencer -- Epicurus to Anatole France -- Pyrrho to Pascal -- Arcesilaus to Hume -- Carneades to Kant -- Zeno to Schopanhauer -- Plotinus to Bergson.

"The age of the great systems gave way to doubt in the ability of reason either to understand the world or to control the impulses of men into order and civilization. Philosophy, like a prodigal daughter, after bright adventures and dark disillusionments, gave up the pursuit of truth and the quest of happiness, returned repentant to her mother, religion, and sought again in faith the foundations of hope and the sanctions of charity."

Any comment on this back and forth swing of the pendulum between philosophy and religion?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 30, 2003 - 05:25 pm
OK, folks -- here comes the transition period. We are nearing the end of Volume 2. I would hope that some lurkers here who have not been making any comments would share a few thoughts with us before we end.

The Coming of Rome

robert b. iadeluca
July 30, 2003 - 05:37 pm
"Polybius demands to know: 'Who is so worthless or indolent as not to wish to understand by what means and under what system of polity the Romans in less than fifty-three years have succeeded in subjecting the whole inhabited world to their sole government -- a thing unique in history? Who is so passionately devoted to other studies as to regard anything of greater moment than the acquisition of this knowledge?'

"We have tried to show that the essential cause of the Roman conquest of Greece was the disintegration of Greek civilization from within. No great nation is ever conquered until it has destroyed itself.

"Deforestation and the abuse of the soil -- the depletion of precious metals -- the migration of trade routes -- the disturbance of economic life by political disorder -- the corruption of democracy and the degeneration of dynasties -- the decay of morals and patriotism -- the decline or deterioration of the population -- the replacement of citizen armies by mercenary troops -- the human and physical wastage of fratricidal war -- the guillotining of ability by murderous revolutions and counterrevolutions -- all these had exhausted the resources of Hellas at the very time when the little state on the Tiber, ruled by a ruthless and farseeing aristocracy, was training hardy legions of landowners -- conqquering its neighbors and competitors -- capturing the food and minerals of the western Mediterranean -- and advancing year by year upon the Greek settlements in Italy.

"These ancient communities, once proud of their wealth, their sages, and their arts, had been impoverished by war, by the depredations of Dionysius I, and by the growth of Rome as a rival center of trade. The native tribes that, centuries before, had been enslaved by the Greeks or pushed back into hinterland, increased and multiplied while their masters cultivated comfort through infanticide and abortion. Soon the native stocks were contesting the control of southern Italy.

"The Greek cities turned to Rome for help.

"They were helped -- and absorbed."

Robby

Justin
July 30, 2003 - 07:24 pm
We have seen civilizations come and go. We have seen them rise, become cpmplacent, decline and in the end be overcome by a newly advancing civilization. The Sumerians were over come by the Akadians who in turn were overcome by the Babylonians, who in turn were overcome by the Assyrians, who in turn were overcome by the Persians and so on. Each time we have witnessed a turnover we have learned something about the causes of the transition. Sometimes as in Egypt, complacency led to religious extremism. Sometimes as in Persia, complacency led to military weakness. In Greece, complacency led first to military weakness and then to dispersion and thence to absorption. We will soon see Rome rise and fall and will again see the process of civilization in action.

robert b. iadeluca
July 31, 2003 - 03:03 am
"At every step the expansion of Rome was aided by the mistakes of her enemies, In the year 230 two Romans were sent to Scodra, capital of Illyria (northern Albania) to remonstrate against the attacks of Illyrian pirates upon Roman shipping. Queen Teuta, who had been allowed to share the spoils, answered that 'it was contrary to the custom of the Illyrian rulers to hinder their subjects from winning booty from the sea.' When one envoy threatened war, Teuta had him killed.

"Pleased with so inexpensive an escuse for seizing the Dalmatian coast, Rome dispatched an expedition which reduced Illyria to a Roman protectorate almost as easily in 229 B.C. as in A.D. 1939. Coreyra (Corfu), Epidamnus (Durazzo), and other Greek settlements became Roman dependencies. Since Greek trade had also suffered from Illyrian piracy, Athens, Corinth, and the two leagues applauded Rome as a deliverer, accepted her ambassadors, and admitted the Romans to participation in the Eleusinian mysteries and the Isthmian games.

"In 216 Hannibal annihilated the Roman army at Cannae, and marched up to the gates of Rome. While Rome faced the greatest crisis in the history of the republic, Philip V, King of Macedon, signed an alliance with Hannibal and prepared to invade Italy (214). In the conference at Naupactus (213) the Aetolian delegate appealed for the unity of all Greeks, in this First Macedonian War, against the rising power in the west.

"Philip heard him politely, and became for a moment the idol of Greece. But his treaty with Hannibal specified that in return for Philip's attack upon Italy, Carthage, if successful in the present war, would help Philip to subdue all mainland Greece to Macedonia.

"Perhaps because the terms of such an agreement became known to the Greek states, most of them, including Agelaus' Aetolian League, entered into a pact with Rome against Macedon, and kept Philip so harassed at home that his invasion of Italy was indefinitely postponed. Rome signed a treaty with Philip so that she might give all her attention to Hannibal, and three years later the elder Scipio overwhelmed the Carthaginian at Zama.

"As the last great century of Greek civilization came to an end Egypt, Rhodes, and Pergamum appealed to Rome for help against Philip. Rome responded by inviting the Second Macedonia War. Opposed by nearly all of Greece as well as by Rome, Philip fought with the ferocity of a beast at bay. He used every treachery, stole whatever he found to his purpose, and treated captives with such cruelty that every man in Abydos, when Philip's siege was proving irresistible, killed his wife and children and then himself.

"In 197 Titus Quinctius Flaminius, a patrician of the type that made Polybius a pro-Roman enthusiast, so overwhelmed Philip at Cynoscephalae that suddenly all Macedonia -- indeed, all Greece -- lay at the mercy of Rome.

"To the disgust of his Aetolian allies (who claimed that they had won the battle), Flaminius, after exacting severe indemnities and appropriating a shipload of spoils, allowed the safely weakened Philip to keep his throne, on the ground that Macedonia was needed as a bulwark against the barbarians in the north."

Diplomacy vs warfare. The choice seems ever present.

Robby

MalrynF
July 31, 2003 - 03:19 pm

For some reason I always thought war was a last resort after all other means failed. I can see now how wrong I've been.

The Aetolian League

Flaminius

robert b. iadeluca
July 31, 2003 - 03:36 pm
"In 146 Mummius captured Corinth, the citadel of the League. Whether to destroy a commercial rival in the east as the younger Scipio was in that year destroying Carthage in the west, or to give rebellious Greece a lesson after the fashion of Alexander at Thebes, the rich city of merchants and courtesans was put to the flames, all the men were slaughtered, and all the women and children were sold into slavery.

"Mummius carried off to Italy whatever wealth could be moved, including the works of art with which the Corinthians had adorned their cities and their homes. Polybius talls how Roman soldiers used world-famous paintings as boards for their games of draughts or dice.

"The League was dissolved, and its leaders were put to death.

"Greece and Macesonia were united into one province under a Roman governor.

"Boeotia, Locris, Corinth, and Euboea were subjected to annual tribute. Athens and Sparta were spared, and were allowed to remain under their own laws.

"The party of property and order was upheld everywhere, and all attempts to wage war, or make revolutions, or change the constitution, were proscribed.

"The turbulent cities had at last found peace."

And so "rebellious Greece" was given a lesson. To copy the title of this volume, The Life of Greece slowly came to an end.

And this, too, shall pass away. Does any one here who has gone through the entire story of this marvelous culture feel sad?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 31, 2003 - 04:13 pm
And now as Durant brings the volume to an end --

EPILOGUE

tooki
July 31, 2003 - 04:13 pm
No, because Greece lives on in our lives: intellectually, who does'nt almost every day use an Aristotlian if-then; emotionally, don't we all try and accept what comes our way with as much Stocism as we can muster, and artistically, aren't we all guided by the golden mean when we look at contemporary art.

If the Durants took over five years to write this wonderful book, then the least we could do is devote almost a year to it. See there, if it weren't for Aristotle, then we wouldn't be able to write clearly.

Thank you, Robby. When do we start next fall? Have a good time in, where is it, Calgery.

MalrynF
July 31, 2003 - 04:15 pm

I am. This was one of the most brilliant and enlightened civilizations the world has ever seen. I can't even imagine what life would have been like if it had gone on longer. Yes, sad. It's a darned shame that when there's a flash of light in the world that it has to be smothered for centuries under heavy shadows of darkness before one like it begins to flicker again.

I find the dominance of darkness in the pattern of the world and human behavior to be very depressing.

Mal

Justin
July 31, 2003 - 04:20 pm
The need for geographic buffers is still with us. One of reasons Bush senior allowed Saddam to remain on the throne was a desire to maintain the balance of power in the region. Here we have Scippio making a similar choice in dealing with Phillip. France and England played that role for us in 1939 while we dawdled in our cocoon.

robert b. iadeluca
July 31, 2003 - 04:28 pm
"Greek civilization was not dead. It had yet several centuries of life before it. And it bequeathed itself in an incomparable legacy to the nations of Europe and the Near East.

"Every Greek colony poured the elixir of Greek art and thought into the cultural blood of the hinterland -- into Spain and Gaul -- Etruria and Rome -- Egypt and Palestine -- Syria and Asia Minor -- and along the shores of the Black Sea.

"Alexandria was the port of reshipment for ideas as well as goods. From the Museum and the Library the works and views of Greek poets, mystics, philosophers, and scientists were scattered through scholars and students into every city of the Mediterranean concourse.

"Rome took the Greek heritage in its Hellenistic form -- her playwrights adopted Menander anbd Philemon -- her arts used Greek craftsmen and Greek forms -- her law absorbed the statutes of the Greek cities -- and her later imperial organization was modeled upon the Greco-Oriental monarchies.

"Hellenism, after the Roman conquest of Greece, conquered Rome even as the Orient was conquering Greece. Every extension of Roman power spread the ferment of Hellenic civilization. The Byzantine Empire wedded Greek to Asiatic culture, and passed on some part of the Greek inheritance to the Near East and the Slavic north.

"The Syrian Christians took up the torch and handed it to the Arabs, who carried it through Africa to Spain.

"Byzantine, Moslem, and Jewish scholars conveyed or translated the Greek master pieces to Italy, arousing first the philosophy of the Schoolmen and then the fever of the Renaissance.

"Since that second birth of the European mind the spirit of Greece has seeped so thorougly into modern culture that 'all civilized nations, in all that concerns the activity of the intellect, are colonies of Hellas' today."

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
July 31, 2003 - 05:52 pm
After reading Life of Greece, I understand better where we come from and perhaps also where we are going. What we see happening in the world these today already happened before, we are in the process of reaching the summit of our civilization and we can be certain that when it is reached this civilization will fall again.

We are so sure of ourselves, so sure that nothing will ever remove what we have today. But history shows us that all the signs are there. We have only a short time before our world tumbles down to bare essentials. Who knows, we might live in caves.

It might not happen in our lifetime, but if it does it will be hard because we have had the very best that life can bring.

Thank you Robby for leading a wonderful dicussion.

Bubble
August 1, 2003 - 01:04 am
Greece gave us so much, in so many fields, much of which still endures. It is still sad to think it is gone, especially when one thinks of Greece today. Yes, I know, they have great music...



I learned more here than in all the years of classical schooling I have had. I wonder why Greece and Rome were always taught together, drawing the parallel between Greek gods and Roman gods for example as if they were contemporaries in time, instead of one picking up from the other.



I am flying to Europe in three weeks time and will be absent for a month. I am sure I will continue to cogitate on all we discussed here and no doubt will mention this discussion to many. I hope it won't cause your ears to tingle.



Eloise, no matter what, Man will rise to new heights again!



Thank you Robby for your expertise in choosing Durant's quotes, in making us pause on the important points, on keeping us to the topic at hand and out of mischief. I look forward to Rome.
Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
August 1, 2003 - 06:20 am
"If we include in our Hellenic heritage not only what the Greeks invented but what they adapted from older cultures and transmitted by these diverse routes to our own, we shall find that patrimony in almost every phase of modern life.

"Our handicrafts -- the technique of mining -- the essentials of engineering -- the processes of finance and trade -- the organization of labor -- the governmental regulation of commerce and industry -- all these have come down to us on the stream of history from Rome, and through Rome from Greece.

"Our democracies and our dictatorships alike go back to Greek examplars. Through the widened reach of states has evolved a representative system unknown to Hellas -- the democratic idea of a government responsible to the governed -- of trial by jury -- and of civil liberties of thought, speech, writing, assemblage, and worship, have been profoundly stimulated by Greek history.

"These things above all distinguished the Greek from the Oriental, and gave him an independence of spirit and enterprise that made him smile at the obeisances and inertia of the East.

"Our schools and universities, our gymnasiums and stadiums, our athletics and Olympic games, trace their lineage to Greece. The theory of eugenic health and natural living, the pagan ideal of a shameless enjoyment of every sense, found their historic formulations in Greece.

"Christian theology and practice (the very words are Greek) stem in large part from the mystery religions of Greece and Egypt, from Eleusinian, Orphic, and Osirian rites -- from Greek doctrines of the divine son dying for mankind and rising from the dead -- from Greek rituals of religious procession, ceremonial purification, holy sacrifice, and the sacred common meal -- from Greek ideas of hell, demons, purgatory, indulgences, and heaven -- and from Stoic and Neo-Platonic theories of the Logis, creation, and the final conflagration of the world. Even our superstition is indebted to Greek bogies, witches, curses, omens, and unlucky days.

"And who could understand English literature or one ode of Keats, without some tincture of Greek mythology?"

What a tremendous list!! Any comments?

Robby

Bubble
August 1, 2003 - 07:23 am
everything of importance seems to be linked to Greece. I had the thought that if we did not have writing, we probably would not have been able to remember and appreciate the development of Greece. Civilization really started with writing.

MalrynF
August 1, 2003 - 09:49 am

Yes, there are many influences in the western world which have come from the Ancient Greeks. I'd love to think that what happened to me today is because I am descended from ancient Olympic athletes.

I have spent the months we've discussed this book in a wheelchair and not walking at all. Three months ago, to add to my problems, I developed Cellulitis in my leg, which was swollen so badly I couldn't get my shoe and leg brace on. Thanks to doctors, a Home Health company sent a young physio-therapist named Sara to my apartment twice a week. The Cellulitis ( a painful deal, as anyone who's had it will tell you ) now is gone, and today when Sara came I walked all over this apartment with crutches; practiced how I'll wash my hair at the kitchen sink, and pretended I was cooking. They're extending her visits two more weeks, so I'll practice how I'll get in the shower and do some walking outside. Maybe I'll be able to get my car re-insured and registered and get in it and drive!

I fully intend to participate in the Caesar and Christ discussion, but who knows? Maybe I'll be so busy gallivanting and enjoying my new-found independence and freedom that I won't have time!

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
August 1, 2003 - 12:06 pm
That's marvelous, Mal!!

robert b. iadeluca
August 1, 2003 - 12:11 pm
"Our literature could hardly have existed without the Greek tradition. Our alphabet came from Greece through Cumae and Rome. Our language is littered with Greek words. Our science has forged an international language through Greek terms. Our grammar and rhetoric, even the punctuation and paragraphing of this page, are Greek inventions.

"Our literary genres are Greek -- the lyric, the ode, the idyl, the novel, the essay, the oration, the biography, the history, and above all the drama. Again nearly all the words are Greek. The terms and forms of the modern drama -- tragedy, comedy, and pantomine -- are Greek. And though Elizabethan tragedy is unique, the comic drama has come down almost unchanged from Menander and Philemon through Plautus and Terence, Ben Jonson and Moliere. The Greek dramas themselves are among the richet portions of our inheritance.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
August 1, 2003 - 12:45 pm
"Nothing else in Greece seems so foreign to us as its music. Yet modern music (until its return to Africa and the Orient) was derived from medieval chants and dances, and these went back in part to Greece.

"The oratorio and the opera owe something to the Greek choral dance and drama. The theory of music, so far as we know, was first explored and expounded by the Greeks from Pythagoras to Arixtoxenus.

"Our debt is least in painting. But in the art of fresco a direct line can be traced from Polygnotus through Alexandria and Pompeii, Giotto and Michelangelo, to the arresting murals of our own day.

"The forms and much of the technique of modern sculpture are still Greek, for upon no other art has the Hellenic genius stamped itself so despotically.

"We are only now freeing oursleves from the fscination of Greek architecture. Every city in Europe and America has some temple of commerce or finance whose form or columnar face came from the schrines of Greek gods. We miss in Greek art the study of character and the portrayal of the soul, and its infatuation with physical beauty and health leaves it less mature than the masculine statuary of Egypt or the profound painting of the Chinese.

"But the lessons of moderation, purity, and harmony embodied in the sculpture and architecture of the classic age are a precious heirloom for our race."

Robby

Shasta Sills
August 1, 2003 - 01:22 pm
Those are the things I admire about Greek civilization, not all those tiresome wars.

Congratulations on your progress, Mal. Keep up the good work.

robert b. iadeluca
August 1, 2003 - 02:16 pm
"If Greek civilization seems more akin and 'modern' to us now than that of any century before Voltaire, it is because the Hellene loved reason as much as form, and boldly sought to explain all nature in nature's terms. The liberation of science from theology, and the independent development of scientific research, were parts of the heady adventure of the Greek mind.

"Greek mathematicians laid the foundations of trigonometry and calculus, they began and completed the study of conic sections, and they brought three-dimensional geometry to such relative perfection that it remained as they left it until Descartes and Pascal. Democritus illuminated the whole area of physics and chemistry with his atomic theory.

"In a mere aside and holiday from abstract studies Archimedes produced enough new mechanisms to place his name with the highest in the records of invention. Aristarchus anticipated and perhaps inspired Copernicus. Hipparchus, through Claudius Ptolemy, constructed a system of astronomy which is one of the landmarks in cultural history.

"Eratosthenes measured the earth and mapped it. Anaxagoras and Empidocles drew the outlines of a theory of evolution.

"Aristotle and Theophrastus classified the animal and plant kingdoms, and almost created the sciences of meteorology, zoology, emnbryology, and botany. Hippocrates freed medicine from mysticism and philosphical theory, and ennobled it with an ethical code.

"Herophilus and Erasistratus raised anatomy and physiology to a point which, except in Galen, Europe would not reach again until the Renaissance.

"In the work of these men we breathe the quiet air of reason, always uncertain and unsafe, but cleased of passion and myth. Perhaps, if we had its masterpieces entire, we should rate Greek science as the most signal intellectual achievment of mankind."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
August 1, 2003 - 03:39 pm
"The lover of philosophy will only reluctantly yield to science and art the supreme places in our Grecian heritage. Greek science itself was a child of Greek philosophy -- of that reckless challenge to legend, that youthful love of inquiry, which for centuries united science and philosophy in one adventurous quest.

"Never had men examined nature so critically and yet so affectionately. The Greeks did no dishonor to the world in thinking that it was a cosmos of order and therefore amenable to understanding. They invented logic for the same reason that they made perfect statuary. Harmony, unity, proportion, form, in their view, provided both the art of logic and the logic of art. Curious of every fact and every theory, they not only established philosophy as a distinct enterprise of the European mind, but they conceived nearly every system and every hypothesis, and left little to be said on any major problem of life.

"Realism and nominalism, idealism and materialism, monotheism, pantheism, and atheism, feminism and communism, the Kantian critique and the Schopenhaaurian despair, the primitivism of Rousseau and the immoralism of Mietzsche, the synthesis of Spencer and the phychoanalysis of Freud -- all the dreams and wisdom of philosophy are here, in the age and land of its birth.

"And in Greece men not only talked of philosophy, they lived it. The sage, rather than the warrior or the saint, was the pinnacle and ideal of Greek life. Through all the centuries from Thales that exhiliarating philosophical bequest has come down to us, imspiring Roman emperors, Christian Fathers, Scholasstic theologians, Renaissance heretics, Cambridge Platonists, the rebels of the Enlightenmen, and the devotees of philosophy today.

"At this moment thousands of eager spirits are reading Plato, perhaps in every country on the earth."

Robby

Justin
August 1, 2003 - 07:37 pm
Mal; Eureka! Eureka! Eureka. Sara said, "Get up and walk and you walked". I am sure it was your iron constitution that brought you to your feet. It's wonderful. I am happy for you. I know you will enjoy washing your hair in the sink and standing in the shower. It will be nice, too, to see the surface of counter tops. I'm pulling for you.

Justin
August 1, 2003 - 11:29 pm
All the benefit that we have had in this discussion, thus far, has come to us as a result of the fine work of our discussion leader who prompted us to contribute as we read and commented on the Greek experience. This discussion has been extremely rewarding to me and I attribute that to the many articulate discussants who have shared the coversation with me. I think of myself as an historian but you have opened new avenues of thought for me in many areas I thought I understood. I hope to meet all of you again when we do the Roman thing.

robert b. iadeluca
August 2, 2003 - 03:25 am
"Civilization does not die. It migrates. It changes its habitat and its dress, but it lives on. The decay of one civilization, as of one individual, makes room for the growth of another. Life sheds the old skin, and surprises death with fresh youth."

- - - Will Durant

robert b. iadeluca
August 2, 2003 - 03:33 am
"Greek civilization is alive. It moves in every breath of mind that we breathe. So much of it remains that none of us in one lifetime could absorb it all. We know its defects -- its insane and pitiless wars -- its stagnant slavery -- its subjection of woman -- its lack of moral restraint -- its corrupt individualism -- its tragic failure to unite liberty with order and peace.

"But those who cherish freedom, reason, and beauty will not linger over these blemishes. They will hear behind the turmoil of political history the voices of Solon and Socrates -- of Plato and Euripides -- of Pheidias and Praxateles -- of Epicurus and Archimedes. They will be grateful for the existence of such men, and will seek their company across alien centuries."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
August 2, 2003 - 05:18 am
"Think of Greece as the bright morning of that Western civilization which, with all its kindred faults, is our nourishment and our life."

- - - Will Durant

(The last sentence in Volume Two, "The Life of Greece.")

robert b. iadeluca
August 2, 2003 - 05:39 am
I intend to follow the same procedure as I did after we completed "Our Oriental Heritage." I am now about to take a Sabbatical, so to speak. During this period of time I will also attend a four-day Senior Net Bash in Calgary, Alberta. We will open Durant's third volume, "Caesar and Christ" on Monday, September 1.

HOWEVER, just as we did when we completed the first volume, I will leave this forum open. This furnishes an opportunity for all those who wish to do so to share thoughts as they occur throughout this month. In the last space between volumes, people confined their thoughts to topics related to this forum's theme and did not allow the discussions to "downgrade" to comments about the weather and other casual comments. I would hope that the same procedure would be followed.

It's interesting how when we pause after spending an intensive period such as the one we've had, how thoughts about what we've been reading and saying begin to bubble up. Here is a month for doing just that.

I may occasionally enter to share a thought, but not often. Enjoy YOUR Sabbatical as well!!!

Robby

MalrynF
August 2, 2003 - 05:45 am

I am always sad when we finish dicussing a volume of The Story of Civilization, but am consoled by the fact that there's more to come.

Thank you all for educating me and helping me turn my mind to new ideas. Thank you, Robby, for being the gentle and fair shepherd who guides us through these mazes of thought toward enlightenment.

Mal

Bubble
August 2, 2003 - 05:47 am
Thank you Robby, enjoy your well earned sabbatical. Take lots of pictures in Calgary!



I will certainly be here when I am back home on the last week of September. Bubble

tooki
August 2, 2003 - 06:15 am
Robby, and all of you for keeping me focused. No mean feat. And, Robby, how nice to keep the site open for the interim. I intend to be here to agrue that Pyrrho was WRONG when he said, "Every syllogism begs the question, for its major premise assumes its conclusion."

I hope there will be some interest in this logical nicety.

robert b. iadeluca
August 2, 2003 - 06:22 am
Another brief comment. This August interim would be a wonderful period for you folks to stir up interest among your friends around the Senior Net about the Roman Empire. I'm sure there might be people whose lives don't center around books ("Why would I enter a Books discussion?") but when they learn that they don't have to have the book and that we have lively discussions about that period of time, their interest as related to history might rise.

The more people we have entering the forum on September 1st, the more successful it will be.

Robby

MalrynF
August 2, 2003 - 06:24 am

Is everyone but me going away? Well, heck, I can't complain. I have a date to go to Lowe's Supermarket to have cappuccino at their cafeteria!

TOOKI, you'll argue without me. I don't even know what a syllogism is.

Edit:~ Okay, Robby, I'll go find some people and get them into this discussion.

Mal

georgehd
August 2, 2003 - 10:32 am
Robbie, as a relatively new participant, I too want to thank you for guiding us through Greek civilization. It has been a most rewarding experience.

As we leave Greece, and wait until September for our arrival in Rome, I wondered how the Greeks living during that last century felt about their civilization; had they any sense that their time in the limelight was over. And it got me to thinking about our own time and the position of the US right now in the history of civilization. We seem to be at a high point. Are we headed higher or doomed to decline? Can those who are alive today influence the path that our civilization takes? Do we learn anything by studying history?

robert b. iadeluca
August 2, 2003 - 01:47 pm
Yup -- it's me again. I'll try not to do this too often but it's hard to break a habit.

While it is not necessary to have a book in hand to participate in the coming discussion, it certainly is helpful. And you can get one CHEAP.

Step 1 - Click onto B&N Bookstore in the Heading above.
Step 2 - In "Keyword" in upper left hand corner write "Caesar and Christ."
Step 3 - Scroll on down. You will find that the book is no longer available. HOWEVER! On the right hand side is a comment about used books. Click onto "Availability."
Step 4 - Choose the book you want. You can get a hardcover copy for $6.35.

I wouldn't suggest that you wait too long.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
August 4, 2003 - 03:02 pm

Model of Ancient Rome




Map of Ancient Rome



Map of the Roman Empire and countries of today which were part of it



Roman dress and some statues

tooki
August 5, 2003 - 01:59 pm
Thnaks, Mal, although I'll need to review them again after the discussion begins.

Meanwhile, as I threatened, here's beginning information on Aristotle's syllogistic logic. Pyrrho said, on page 642, "Every syllogism begs the question, for its major premise assumes its conclusion." Not so! A syllogism is a form of deductive reasoning consisting of a major premise, a minor premise, and a conclusion.

The major premise is called "P" for predicate. The minor premise is called "M" for middle. The conclusion is called "S" for subject. A syllogism is symbolized: All P are M; No S are M; No S are P.

Does anyone want me to continue by giving a couple of syllogisms and stating why Pyrrho is wrong? Otherwise, I'll quit now while you all still can stand me.

Shasta Sills
August 5, 2003 - 02:33 pm
Interesting maps, Mal. I especially liked the map of ancient Rome that had music with it.

Tooki, I have no idea what you are talking about, but I'm listening. I always take the attitude that if I listen to something I don't understand, maybe some of it will seep into my brain by a process of osmosis.

robert b. iadeluca
August 5, 2003 - 02:36 pm
Susan Stamberg on National Public Radio started a series on "Ethics" beginning this morning which will run each Tuesday morning. On this morning's broadcast they referred constantly to Ancient Greece and the views of various philosophers on that topic.

You can probably read the transcript if you click onto NPR.

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
August 5, 2003 - 04:05 pm
Great Robby. My next course in September will be "Ethics in the Contemporary World". I will put the it in my favorites if I can get a link to it.

Great pictures of Rome Mal.

tooki
August 6, 2003 - 08:52 am
PBS is, in the Portland, Oregon area at least, showing "The Spartans" on Tuesday, August 5. I have no idea if this is a repeat, but it got a good review, especially the visuals.

And I say, "Phooey on syllogisms. I believe I'll concentrate on drawing the flowers in my fulsome summer garden."

Justin
August 7, 2003 - 10:02 pm
P x M x S = PMS= Premenstrual sagacity.

Justin
August 7, 2003 - 10:39 pm
It is hard to believe we have been able to make 48 snarling and spitting separate countries out of the Roman empire. Isn't that wonderful?

tooki
August 8, 2003 - 08:31 am
Just had to tell someone, didn't you, Justin? It caused chuckles here. Forty eight snarling, spitting countries? I wonder how many countries Alexander's empire contained?

robert b. iadeluca
August 8, 2003 - 10:46 pm
This LINK tells of problems regarding the upcoming Olympics in Athens.

Robby

georgehd
August 9, 2003 - 04:27 am
Thanks Mal for the links and Robby for the NPR info.

I was struck by how much the extent of the Roman Empire reminded me of the German conquest of Europe in WW2 (leave out Great Britain and Spain)

robert b. iadeluca
August 9, 2003 - 10:57 am
Throughout Our Oriental Heritage and the Life of Greece there was always a "conflict" between religion and the state. Here is THE LATEST on that subject in the United States.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
August 9, 2003 - 01:27 pm
I've been very busy doing editing for people; had to stop by because of the article Robby linked. Unlike times in the past, this work I'm doing will bring me no pay. I remember once a few years ago when I was hired to edit an entire book, having been told that on its publication I would be paid. When, indeed, it was published, the author conveniently "forgot" who her editor was.

Should states refuse to help students who are studying theology? That is the question. Any courses of religous study I took in college, which still do lead to a degree in theology, certainly did not resemble worship of any kind. Maybe a distinction should be made between those that do and those that don't.

Mal

Justin
August 9, 2003 - 07:51 pm
The States can have no legitinate interest in sponsoring religious instruction. Spending taxpayer money for such an enterprise, I think, would be unconstitutional. It's bad enough that the churches profit without taxation. They pay no taxes but do not hesitate to use other peoples money to educate their priests. That's wrong and the judge who found it acceptable needs further training in the law.

robert b. iadeluca
August 10, 2003 - 05:09 am
Those folks here who participated in Our Oriental Heritage will remember discussing Buddhism. Here is an ARTICLE telling of using the practice of Buddhism in working with American youth gangs.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
August 10, 2003 - 06:28 am

There are three manufacturing cities on the Merrimack River in northern Massachusetts which are quite close together. One is Lowell, the city mentioned in the article Robby posted. One is Lawrence, and the third is Haverhill. I grew up in Haverhill.

Of the three cities Lowell was always the largest. In the old days Lowell and Lawrence made fabrics; Haverhill made shoes.

These cities were melting pots with Americans of almost every nationality background you could name. When I lived in Haverhill there was a large number of French Canadians who had come to that area from the province of Quebec to find work. There were people of Irish background, Polish, English, Russian, Italian, Greek, Armenian, German and so on. There were very few African American people or Asians.

When I went back to Haverhill to settle the estate of a relative some years ago I was astonished to find that part of the Haverhill Gazette newspaper was written in Spanish because of a very large number of Spanish-speaking people who had emigrated there from Puerto Rico. Now there are many Asians, apparently. Things change, but the melting pot remains the same.

Back in the 30's and 40's there were frictions among the various ethnic groups, and each one lived in their own pockets in these cities. The only place we all really mingled was in school, at work and in church. Even then, we more or less kept to our own "kind". Ethnic and religious prejudice was very strong.

I think the use of Buddhism as a means to learn discipline in Lowell is a very, very good idea. Buddhism is called a religion, but it is more a philosophy than a religion since there is not a focus on God. Buddhism is peaceful in nature and learned through meditation and a disciplined study of its precepts, which are applied to every day life.

When I was a young girl, not many people studied any kind of religion or philosophy except their own. As kids we didn't realize that things we read in school by Emerson and Thoreau had been influenced by Hinduism, nor did were we aware that John Greenleaf Whittier's poetry, which all of us read and memorized because he was born in Haverhill, had its basis in the peaceful Quaker religion. Most of us up there in those mill towns in the 30's and 40's had never heard of Buddhism.

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
August 10, 2003 - 06:52 pm

Sorry to monopolize this board today, but I have to tell you that I just saw Woody Allen's "Mighty Aphrodite". There's some truth in this modern-day comedy. It was great fun to see Cassandra running around spouting dire prophecies nobody listened to while the Greek chorus (dressed in suitable Grecian robes, draperies and masks) broke into a couple of song and dance acts, like "When You're Smiling", in between warning our hero about the dangers of playng Zeus and trying to control his own destiny. Anybody who's read Life of Greece should enjoy this movie as much as I did.

Mal

jeanlock
August 12, 2003 - 09:37 am
Are there any refugees from the Virginia group hanging out here? If so, please post in Virginia because we want to set up another luncheon in Sept.

Thanks.

robert b. iadeluca
August 17, 2003 - 05:50 pm
How interesting that the OLYMPICS were prepared in a more "civilized" way 2,500 years ago than now!!

Robby

Justin
August 18, 2003 - 10:56 pm
When we open the book on Rome in September, I will be looking for something I have never sought in previous examinations of Roman history- an exemplar for contemporary U.S. foreign policy. US Special forces are lodged today in 65 countries. Are we building an empire for the same reason Rome built an empire? We build for protection of the core home land. Is that why Rome built its Empire? We shall see.

robert b. iadeluca
August 19, 2003 - 03:17 am
We begin in two weeks and there is still time to pick up paper backs or cheap second hand hard backs of "Caesar and Christ."

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
August 19, 2003 - 07:07 am

Click here to see our discussion leader at Calgary

Bubble
August 20, 2003 - 03:53 am
A little trivia before starting on Rome:



CHANGE-A-HEAD



Roman statues were made with detachable heads, so that one head could be removed and replaced by another.

georgehd
August 20, 2003 - 04:47 am
Sea Bubble, what an interesting idea. Should try it with some politicians.

Percivel
August 20, 2003 - 05:37 am
>Sea Bubble, what an interesting idea. Should try it with some politicians. <<


I do suppose that the action is a historical citation for the song, "I ain't got no body."

Malryn (Mal)
August 20, 2003 - 03:37 pm

Click here to see a picture of Eloise and Robby at the Calgary International Bash

Justin
August 20, 2003 - 09:20 pm
If changing heads were feasible, I would unscrew Bush's head and replace it with Hillary's head. If the Atlantic Monthly is correct when it says Bush lacks intellect, imagination and that "vision thing." Hillary's head will provide all that's needed in addition to giving the women of the world a fair shake.

Malryn (Mal)
August 21, 2003 - 10:49 am

Robby and his new camera at Calgary

robert b. iadeluca
August 22, 2003 - 03:09 am
Here is a little SOMETHING to whet everyone's appetite for the upcoming Roman Empire.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
August 22, 2003 - 03:48 pm

A link to some pages about Greece a friend sent to me

robert b. iadeluca
August 24, 2003 - 03:41 pm
This ARTICLE from today's NY Times speaks of the origins of mankind much further back than Sumeria, etc. but also speaks of where we may be going so I have posted it for your interest. You may or may not agree with the theories here but it will, I believe, stimulate your thinking.

Robby

tooki
August 24, 2003 - 07:44 pm
This from a review in "Harpers" by John Leonard.

Adrienne Mayor, "Greek Fire, Poison Arrows and Scorpion Bombs: Biological Warefare in the Ancient World."

"Serpent venom, toxic honey, monkshood, black hellebore, deadly night shade, yew barries, frog toxin, rhododendron sap, stringray spine, jelly fish, dung beetles and bug guts have, from antique times, been smeared on arrows, spears, swords, and blowgun darts, or shot out of catapults during sieges, or used to poison crops and wells, by everybody from Alexander the Great to the Holy Crusaders, including Hittites, Scythians, Spartans, Trojans, Romans, Persians, Hindus, Muslims and Marcus Aurelius. Perhaps most worrisome in this dispatch from the dead zone is the news that temples may be repositories of bioweapons waiting for their moment - even the Ark of the Coveant may have harbored plague germs. But most encouraging is Mayor's observation that, from the beginning, in every culture ethical questions have been raised. Classical literature views with alarm not only chemical and biological welfare but preemptive strikes and collateral damage as well. The story of Hercultes and how he died is a terrible caution."

Here's a bit more"WMD

And that's the way Leonard writes.

Bubble
August 25, 2003 - 02:00 am
Great article Robby, I am taking it on the plane to ponder on!



Are the links in archives discussions still live? This one will end before my return.
Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
August 25, 2003 - 03:41 am
Tooki:--That really makes one think!!

Bubble:--The archives will not be destroyed and you can check them upon your return.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
August 25, 2003 - 04:43 am
Again, under the theme of "Where Are We Headed," this ARTICLE may be of interest to participants here.

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
August 25, 2003 - 05:45 am
Robby, the French accidentally were in the right climate for wine production and water was scarce. They happily drink their wine, some to excess, but most moderately from 1 to 3 glasses each meal. I honestly believe that wine reduces the cholesterol, but is hard on the liver when drank in excess. Not only is it good for health, but anything I cannot verify or prove is that wine excites the papillary glands in the mouth which improves the taste of food. They will not tolerate bad food. (bless them) The French like to enhance food with each spice that will improve the flavor. Wine satisfies the appetite for sweets and you forget dessert. As for the taste of it, I am not an expert by far as wine in Canada has always been prohibitive, less now so people drink more wine than 50 years ago here.

Eloïse

Shasta Sills
August 25, 2003 - 09:11 am
I feel pretty negative about these efforts to prolong the life span. We're living too long already. We need to find ways to improve our quality of life, not prolong it. I may be able to tolerate 3 or 4 more years of arthritis, but I definitely don't want 30 more years of arthritis!

Malryn (Mal)
August 25, 2003 - 07:15 pm
Click the link below to see a lovely picture of Eloise taken at Calgary. Scroll down a little to see Robby Iadeluca standing by Lake Louise.

Photographs

Éloïse De Pelteau
August 26, 2003 - 04:41 am
Thank you Mal, I was coerced!!! into singing "C'est Magnifique". Was I glad when I was over. We had a wonderful time with a group from SeniorNet that we knew and with those we met.

Although the sun was out except for a few hours, forest fires created a smoke haze as far from the fires as Calgary and the camera which took Robby's pictures could filter out the smoke which was much worse at Lake Louise.

The fires are still raging out of control and close to 200 homes have burnt to the ground in the Kelona area. It was very very sad to actually see smoke rising black over the hill as we were riding back from Banff to Calgary.

Eloïse

Shasta Sills
August 26, 2003 - 01:59 pm
Good photos. What was the weather like in Calgary? It looks like Robby is wearing a sweater. Can it be that cool?

robert b. iadeluca
August 27, 2003 - 03:03 am
Shasta:--That was merely a light vest. The weather was comfortably warm.

And now, folks, it's time to wake every one up from the summer doldrums and give the ALERT. Durant comes back to join us this coming Monday morning (Labor Day) with "Caesar and Christ," the story of the Roman Empire and the beginnings of Christianity.

Email all your friends -- those who were with us during The Life of Greece and those who have never been with us here but you just know that they would love to explore Ancient Rome.

Robby

tooki
August 27, 2003 - 02:21 pm
thanks, Mal. Robby looks cool, rather, comfortable, in his red vest, not sweater, mind you. Eloise looks good, but can she sing? Can you put her voice on here, Mal?

And my final personnal comment before the ALERT: are you jogging yet, Mal?

robert b. iadeluca
August 27, 2003 - 02:23 pm
Tooki:--Mal is coming to our Richmond, Virginia Bash in May, 2004 and you can see for yourself!!

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
August 27, 2003 - 06:59 pm
Tooki, no I can't sing and I am glad nobody recorded it, I was just brassy. But you should have heard Robby sing Lili Marlene.

Mal, so glad that you will be able to go to the Virginia Bash. You will love it.

kiwi lady
August 28, 2003 - 10:50 am
I am very excited as Matthew my son gave me a present of $100 and my very own copy of Caesar and Christ is winging its way to me from the used book section in Barnes and Nobles web site! Vanessa said the University Library's copy is missing. Someone must have borrowed it and not given it back. The book only cost me $8.75 US about $16 NZ. The postage was almost twice the price of the book but its still worked out much cheaper than a new book here. I think my book will reach me by the end of the first week of the discussion all being well in your mail service!

Carolyn

Shasta Sills
August 28, 2003 - 03:22 pm
Did Robby sing Lili Marlene in French?

robert b. iadeluca
August 29, 2003 - 02:53 pm
No one seems to be answering you so I'll tell you that I sang it in German -- the song being taught me by a German girl when I was in Germany right after the war in 1945.

Robby

tooki
August 29, 2003 - 08:40 pm
Wow! Did you marry her? How romantic. Tell us more before Monday's alert. I promise not to tease you. (I'll let Shasta do that). Did you give her chocolate and sheer hose? What a wonderful memory.

robert b. iadeluca
August 30, 2003 - 04:11 am
I told the story at the Calgary Bash. I met her when the 29th Division in which I fought across Germany became the Army of Occupation in the Bremen area. I saw her regularly from May, 1945 into the Fall when I had an opportunity to go to Paris for two months and study French Language and Civilization at the University of Paris (Sorbonne). We were both sad and cried but I promised her I would be back by Christmas.

While I was in Paris I also had an opportunity to visit regularly a girl who lived in Brittany and with whom I had been corresponding regularly after I first met her while on my way to Germany. The Army extended my schooling to four months. In the meantime the 29th Division had gone home and I would no longer be going back to Bremen.

I returned to the States in March. A few months later I wrote the French girl, asking her to marry me. She came over here, we were married, and we had two children. She died many years ago.

So because of this background I was able at the Bash to sing Lili Marlene in German and La Vie En Rose in French.

Life moves on. Come to the Virginia Bash in Richmond in May of next year and meet me, Eloise who I believe plans to attend (and who sang C'est Magnifique beautifully in French in Calgary), and other folks you may know on Senior Net.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
August 30, 2003 - 07:09 am
When I was a professional musician, I sang La Vie en Rose in French, too. In fact, I played and sang it once for a French ambassador to the UN. I'll be at the Virginia Bash, too. Y'all come!

Mal

Shasta Sills
August 30, 2003 - 02:41 pm
I'm afraid to go to these bashes. I'm afraid they will ask me to sing.

Malryn (Mal)
August 30, 2003 - 04:03 pm
Ha, Shasta! You don't gotta do anything you don't want to do. It would be great if you could come; then we could argue face to face! (You, too, Tooki!)

How do you post links without a computer when you're staring the discussion leader right in the eye? I'm going to tell Robby I left all my brains at home.

Mal

Shasta Sills
August 31, 2003 - 03:07 pm
I'd rather argue with people on the computer, rather than face to face. That way, if they don't like what I said, they can't hit me.

jane
August 31, 2003 - 06:32 pm
It's time to rejoin Robby for Volume III in the Story of Civilization.

Step right this way: Click here to enter Vol. III "---Story of Civilization ~ by Will & Ariel Durant ~ Nonfiction ~ NEW" 8/26/03 11:33am