Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant ~ Volume II, Part 1 ~ 9/02 ~ Nonfiction
jane
September 17, 2002 - 07:20 am


What are our origins? Where are we now? Where are we headed?

Share your thoughts with us!





  
"I want to know what were the steps by which man passed from barbarism to civilization." (Voltaire)





Volume Two ("The Life of Greece")

"Four elements constitute Civilization -- economic provision, political organization, moral traditions, and the pursuit of knowledge and the arts. "

"I shall proceed as rapidly as time and circumstances will permit, hoping that a few of my contemporaries will care to grow old with me while learning. "

"These volumes may help some of our children to understand and enjoy the infinite riches of their inheritance."

"Civilization begins where chaos and insecurity ends." "








THE SPARTAN CODE







"To train men to an ideal so unwelcome to the flesh it was necessary to take them at birth and form them by the most rigorous discipline."

"He was taught reading and writing, but barely enough to make him literate."

"As to love, the young man was permitted to indulge in it without prejudice of gender."

"The Spartan system, fearful of such contamination, was inhospitable beyond precedent."





In this Discussion Group we are not examining Durant. We are examining Civilization but in the process constantly referring to Durant's appraisals.

Will Durant attacks in this volume the absorbing, perennially fascinating problem of Greek civilization. Dr. Durant tells the whole story of Hellas, from the days of Crete's vast Aegean empire to the extirpation of the last remnants of Greek liberty, crushed under the heel of an implacably forward-marching Rome. This is a preeminently vivid re-creation of Greek culture brought to the reader through the medium of a supple and vigorous prose.

Like a great drama, The Life of Greece finds a climax in fifth-century Athens, and Will Durant's picture of the city of Pericles is a masterpiece of synthesis, compressing into about two hundred pages the high spots and eternal significances of what many have considered the most fruitful epoch in history. The Life of Greece has taken its place as the most brilliant story of a magnificently endowed people whose career ended in tragedy and unwanted assimilation because they discovered a world view too late.

This volume, and the series of which it is a part, has been compared with the great work of the French encyclopedists of the eighteenth century. The Story of Civilization represents the most comprehensive attempt in our times to embrace the vast panorama of man's history and culture.

This, then, is about YOU. Join our group daily and listen to what Durant and the rest of us are saying. Better yet, share with us your opinions.



Your Discussion Leader:

Robby Iadeluca







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Internet Citation Procedure



robert b. iadeluca
September 17, 2002 - 07:33 pm
Welcome back to all you "veterans" of Our Oriental Heritage and a special WARM WELCOME to all of you who are entering The Story of Civilization for the first time! We are glad you are here and are looking forward to lots and lots of stimulating conversation. I have said many times and I repeat:-- in this forum we do not consider ourselves experts. For those of you who like mysteries, what we have here is nothing more than a mystery. We are trying to find the answers to the questions stated in the Heading above: "What are our origins? Where are we now? Where are we headed?" A suggestion:--Please read the entire Heading in detail.

Helping us find those answers is Will Durant who gave us many tips as we explored the Near East, the Middle East, and the Far East. Now we look to him as he takes us through Ancient Greece. He says:--

"My purpose is to record and contemplate the origin, growth, maturity, and decline of Greek civilization from the oldest remains of Crete and Troy to the conquest of Greece by Rome. I wish to see and feel this complex culture not only in the subtle and impersonal rhythm of its rise and fall, but in the rich variety of its vital elements -- its ways of drawing a living from the land, and of organizing industry and trade -- its experiments with monarchy, aristocracy, democracy, dictatorship, and revolution -- its manners and morals, its religious practices and beliefs -- its education of children, and its regulation of the sexes and the family -- its homes and temples, markets and theaters and athletic fields -- its poetry and drama -- its painting, sculpture, architecture, and music -- its sciences and inventions -- its superstitions and philosophies."

Even as we examine this ancient culture, Durant asks us to constantly examine our own culture and to make comparisons. Again, Durant comments:--

"Excepting machinery, there is hardly anything secular in our culture that does not come from Greece. Schools, gymnasiums, arithmetic, geometry, history, rhetoric, physics, biology, anatomy, hygiene, therapy, costmetics, poetry, music, tragedy, comedy, philosophy, theology, agnosticism, skepticism, stoicism, epicureanism, ethics, politics, idealism, philanthropy, cynicism, tyranny, plutocrcy, democracy -- these are all Greek words for cultural forms seldom originated, but in many cases first matured for good or evil by the abounding energy of the Greeks."

WHAT A LIST!! It had been our practice in Our Oriental Heritage to occasionally pause in our examination of the Ancients and see what we in the Western Civilization had "inherited." Can there be any doubt that we will do this even more as we cover the topics in the above paragraph?

What are your present-day concerns? Please note what Durant has to say in this regard:--

"All the problems that disturb us today -- the cutting down of forests and the erosion of the soil -- the emancipation of woman and the limitation of the family -- the conservatism of the established -- and the experimentalism of the unplaced, in morals, music, and government -- the corruptions of politics and the perversions of conduct -- the conflict of religion and science, and the weakening of the supernatural supports of morality -- the war of the classes, the nations, and the continents -- the revolutions of the poor against the economically powerful rich, and of the rich against the politically powerful poor -- the struggle between democracy and dictatorship, between individualism and communism, between the East and the West -- all these agitated, as if for our instruction, the brilliant and turbulent life of ancient Hellas. There is nothing in Greek civilization that does not illuminate our own."

Does any of that ring a bell? Aren't you glad you're here? And WE are glad you are here!!

Please note Durant's emphasis on Crete. We may be anxious to get to Greece but he warns us that, in order to understand Greece properly, we must first explore the civilization of Ancient Crete. So that is where we will begin. As Durant states it:--"We shall begin with Crete and its lately resurrected civilization, because apparently from Crete, as well as from Asia, came that prehistoric culture of Mycenae and Tiryns which slowly transformed the immigrating Achaeans and the invading Dorians into civilized Greeks."

Are we ready? Shall we move on? Then let us first before we listen to Durant take a look at that area of the world which we are about to visit. Let us get our bearings by first getting an overview of the entire Mediterranean area. Click onto THIS MAP , if you will please, and pause to get a feeling of what part of the world we are about to visit before moving onto the next posting. Here is the whole Mediterranean. Get yourself oriented, if you will. Look at what is now Spain and is now Italy. Notice North Africa. See that little island to the very right? That's Crete.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 18, 2002 - 05:50 pm
Let us zoom in a bit closer. Click HERE and now the island of Crete is at the left side of the map in between Macedonia to the North, Egypt to the South, and the Near East to the East. A most strategic position as Durant will later point out to us.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 18, 2002 - 05:57 pm
Here we are even closer. As we CLICK HERE the island of Crete begins to take shape and just to the north of it we see Sparta and Athens, names which will become very familiar to us once we have left the civilization of Crete.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 18, 2002 - 06:09 pm
And here we are! Click onto CRETE to see close up the location of the very ancient civilization that Durant is about to explain to us.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 18, 2002 - 06:23 pm
And now, take just the BRIEFEST MOMENT to get an idea of the size of Crete. To get the approximate size in miles, just divide the kilometers in half.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 18, 2002 - 06:58 pm
A tip to those newcomers who do not have the book. Make it a regular practice to watch the GREEN quotes in the Heading. They change periodically and will help you to know where in the book we are located. Anything you read from now on which is in italics and in quotes is the wording of Durant himself. Lead us on, Dr. Durant!!

CRETE

"As we enter the fairest of all waters, leaving behind us the Atlantic and Gibraltar, we pass at once into the arena of Greek history. 'Like frogs around a pond,' said Plato, 'we have settled down upon the shores of this sea.' Even on these distant coasts the Greeks founded precarious, barbarian-bound colonies many centuries before Christ -- at Hemeroscopium and Ampurias in Spain, at Marseilles and Nice in France, and almost every where in southern Italy and Sicily.

"Greek colonists established prosperous towns at Cyrene in northern Africa, and at Naucratis in the delta of the Nile. Their restless enterprise stirred the islands of the Aegean and the coasts of Asia Minor then as in our century. All along the Dardanelles and the Sea of Marmora and the Black Sea they built towns and cities for their far-venturing trade."

Anyone here surprised at the extent of their trade?

Any reactions to Durant's remarks in Post No. 1?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 21, 2002 - 07:12 pm
BE SURE TO CLICK ONTO THE SUBSCRIBE BUTTON, EVERYBODY!!

North Star
September 21, 2002 - 07:45 pm
We know where the ancient trade routes were because of the lineups of sunken vessels in the Mediterranean Sea.

Traude S
September 21, 2002 - 07:52 pm
Robby,

I am just checking in and have a lot to catch up on.

I find myself riveted to one sentence in the second paragraph from the bottom of the header :


" The Life of Greece has taken its place as the most brilliant story of a magnificently endowed people whose career ended in tragedy because they discovered a world view too late."


Whose words are those ?

Isn't "career?" a bit modern ?

I am not sure about the implication of "... discovered a world view too late". Is that a premise or will it be explained ?

Forgive me, I'm way behind.

kiwi lady
September 21, 2002 - 09:04 pm
Do you mean they discovered a world view too late because they were an insular society?

Carolyn

Malryn (Mal)
September 21, 2002 - 09:08 pm

Whoopee! I'm so glad this discussion has started!

THE PALACE AT KNOSSOS



HISTORY OF PLUMBING -- CRETE

kiwi lady
September 21, 2002 - 09:11 pm
I can see why a civilization was founded in this area because it was a perfect place for ships to call. Its a bit like our Hauraki Gulf except our islands are not so many. Also because of the beauty too. I mean why does one third of our population live in Humid wet Auckland. I live here because its beautiful and I like to be near the ocean. I am sure the Greeks felt the same about their beautiful islands. I saw some of the islands on a travel program the other night and it was really beautiful. I could live happily on the Greek Coast. I have never in my life been landlocked!

Carolyn

CallieK
September 21, 2002 - 09:14 pm
I'm so excited that the first part of the discussion will be about Crete and at the links to Knossos. I was there two years ago - and took pictures of many things shown in the links. Even found a picture of the bee (wasp/yellowjacket) pendant I saw in the Iraklion museum; my special souvenir is a very small copy which I wear all the time.


Did you know the ancient palace at Knossos had air conditioning?

kiwi lady
September 21, 2002 - 10:24 pm
It had all sorts of mod cons. I was amazed when I read the chapter.

Carolyn

Justin
September 21, 2002 - 10:47 pm
The red lettering has us looking at the end of the story before we examine the beginning. The words beginning with " career ended in tragedy and unwanted assimilation because they discovered a world view too late" is very provocative. I do not share the view that the Greek civilization ended in tragedy. It ended in assimilation and imitation-two processes that gave the world significant gifts: democratic ideals and Helenism.The Greek discovery of a world view is a process that will occupy us greatly in the Roman period. I can wait.

Éloïse De Pelteau
September 22, 2002 - 03:31 am
I am reading 15 posts this morning, the last one on my computer was on the 17th of September and I did not have access to our new discussion even if I am subscribed automatically.

"Climate did not draw civilization to Greece."

This surprises me very much because I always thought that Western civilization developed first around the Mediterranean Sea where the climate is so ideal. Is there something that I don't understand here?

Eloïse

robert b. iadeluca
September 22, 2002 - 04:39 am
You folks don't wait very long, do you!!! But of course that is what makes this discussion group so marvelous.

Traude:--The words 'The Life of Greece has taken its place etc' were written by the publisher and are on the dust cover of the volume.

Mal:-- I just knew you were going to be here right at the start!! And thank you for those marvelous links.

Carolyn (Kiwi):--Interesting comparison you make between Crete and New Zealand. Perhaps as time goes along you might favor us with a photo or so of New Zealand which you believe fits in with the topic we are discussing at the moment.

Callie:--How wonderful that you were actually at Crete! The Crete part of this story will undoubtedly bring back memories. Please tell us about the air-conditioning.

Justin:--You disagree with the publisher about the Civilization of Greece ending in tragedy. We'll all come to our own conclusion as we near the end of the story.

Eloise:--As I understand it, Durant is telling us (see GREEN quotes above) not that the climate is so bad but that the geography of the islands was the factor that brought about this ancient civilization.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 22, 2002 - 05:03 am
Durant continues:--"Why was it that the second group of historic civilizations took form on the Mediterranean, as the first had grown up along the rivers of Egypt, Mesopotamia, and India -- as the third would flourish on the Atlantic -- and as the fourth may appear on the shores of the Pacific? Was it the better climate of the lands washed by the Mediterranean? There, then as now, winter rains nourished the earth, and moderate frosts stimulated men. There, almost all the year round, one might live an open-air life under a warm but not enervating sun.

"And yet the surface of the Mediterranean coasts and islands is nowhere so rich as the alluvial valleys of the Ganges, the Indus, the Tigris, the Euphrates, or the Nile. The summer's drought may begin too soon or last too long, and everywhere a rocky basis lurks under the thin crust of the dusty earth.

"The temperate north and the tropic south are both more fertile than these historic lands where patient peasants, weary of coaxing the soil, more and more abandoned tillage to grow olives and the vine. And, at any moment, along one or another of a hundred faults, earthquakes might split the ground beneath men's feet, and frighten them into a fitful piety.

Climate did not draw civilization to Greece. Probably it has never made a civilization anywhere. What drew men into the Aegean was its islands. The islands were beautiful. Even a worried mariner must have been moved by the changing colors of those shadowed hills that rose like temples out of the reflecting sea. Today there are few sights lovelier on the globe. Sailing the Aegean, one begins to understand why the men who people those coasts and isles came to love them almost more than life, and, like Socrates, thought exile bitterer than death."

Robby

MaryPage
September 22, 2002 - 06:52 am
Just want to let you know I'm here!

Traude S
September 22, 2002 - 07:01 am
In contrast to those who have been in here from the beginning I am woefully behind and now in the process of catching up.

I noticed with interest that Justin had a qestion on the same sentence in the header I did last night:
"The life of Greece has taken its place as the most brilliant story of a magnificently endowed people whose career ended in tragedy and unwanted assimilation because they discovered a world view too late."


Replete with pleasant superlatives, this sounds like a summarization, calls for a conclusion; something the publisher would put on a jacket cover. But in reality we have a long way to get there, and the journey to our own discovery looks tempting.

robert b. iadeluca
September 22, 2002 - 07:07 am
Traude:--Depends on what you mean by "catching up." You are beginning The Life of Greece at exactly the same time as everyone else. You say that the journey to our own discovery looks "tempting." That is exactly the FUN in this discussion group. We come to our own conclusions regardless of what publishers and others say. We even disagree with Durant at times.

Robby

Elizabeth N
September 22, 2002 - 07:19 am
Those words made me pause, too. Does America have a world view? Of course we're all over the globe but maybe we only have a United States view. Living so close to Berkeley I hear rumors that through the practices of the World Bank and the IMF we are forcing third world countries to do things like sell their water rights or their medicinal herbs rights. Most of us do not know what is done abroad in our name, and small respect is given to the history and religions of others.

robert b. iadeluca
September 22, 2002 - 07:19 am
"The mariner was pleased to find that these island jewels were strewn in all directions, and at such short intervals that his ship, whether going betwen east and west or between north and south, would never be more than forty miles from land. And since the islands, like the mainland ranges, were the mountaintops of a once continuous territory that had been gradually submerged by a pertinacious sea, some welcome peak always greeted the outlook's eye, and served as a beacon to ships that had as yet no compass to guide them.

"The movements of wind and water conspired to help the sailor reach his goal. A strong central current flowed from the Black Sea into the Aegean, and countercurrents flowed northward along the coasts. The northeasterly etesian winds blew regularly in the summer to help back to their southern ports the ships that had gone to fetch grain, fish, and furs from the Euxine Sea.

"Fog was rare in the Mediteranean, and the unfailing sunshine so varied the coastal winds that at almost any harbor, from sprng to autumn, one might be carried out by a morning, and brought back by an evening breeze."

MaryPage, you live in Annapolis and are a lover of ships and harbor. What is your reaction to all this?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
September 22, 2002 - 07:26 am

Unlike some others, I did not think Western civiliization began with Greece. Rather, I thought it started somewhere around Mesopotamia. I thought all civilizations were based on what was known as "the Cradle of Civilization". After reading Our Oriental Heritage and discussing it here, I've learned that Western civilization was influenced by not just one but all of the others, too numerous to name. I have the impression that Greek civilization was influenced by others, too. Perhaps the Greek islands afforded safety to those who settled there. I can remember a time not so long ago when the United States felt protected because it was bounded by two huge bodies of water.

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
September 22, 2002 - 07:39 am

Callie mentioned the Iraklion Museum in her post. Below is a link to images from the Iraklion Museum, many of them things discovered at Knossos. Click the small images at the left side to see a larger picture.

IMAGES -- IRAKLION MUSEUM

Malryn (Mal)
September 22, 2002 - 07:48 am

Below is a link to a map of the Greek Islands. Click different colors on the map to see a map of a particular place. Be sure to click the links when you access the place. The links at the Crete site give you some history.

AEGEAN MAP OF GREECE

robert b. iadeluca
September 22, 2002 - 08:07 am
Here is ADDITIONAL INFO AND PHOTOS about the various islands.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 22, 2002 - 08:15 am
Here are some MARVELOUS PHOTOS taken in varying islands. My suggestion is that before we move onto further comments by Durant, that we all pause to spend some time absorbing the atmosphere of these islands. And be sure to click onto the small photos so that you can truly enjoy them in a larger version.

Robby

kiwi lady
September 22, 2002 - 10:45 am
Robbie unfortunately I don't have a scanner and none of my neighbours do either. I am a dummy in that I can't post links either but if anyone can I am sure there must be an aerial view of the Hauraki Gulf somewhere on the net and if all else fails watch the first round of the America's cup - The Louis Vuitton cup - you will see part of the Gulf the course will not show all the islands but will show some of them.

Of course you are right about the geographical position. Greece was the perfect place for trade. Sea trade being all important. Auckland was the number one trading centre when NZ was first settled because of the vast and sheltered inner harbour.

Carolyn

robert b. iadeluca
September 22, 2002 - 10:49 am
Carolyn:--I don't have a scanner either. I'll send you an email about links.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 22, 2002 - 11:56 am
Are you dreaming of SAILING from one island to another?

Robby

MaryPage
September 22, 2002 - 12:31 pm
ROBBY, my reaction is one of extreme yearning and excitement. I yearn to sail through and around the Greek Isles, as so many people I know have done. I know the beauty is beyond description. Which poem had the "wine dark sea" in it? Was that in the poem about Helen which began, "Helen, thy beauty is to me"? I think so. Oh, who wrote it. Who cares! It lingers always in my mind, and has for nearly 60 years now! I am excited about every scrap of history and just thinking about history back there, back when.

I truly believe Troy existed, and that they have found it. I think the rest has tiny grains of truth, but much is folk lore which has, as has our own folk lore, grown up from word of mouth stories and been changed from story teller to story teller.

I think the island of Santorini (spelling?) probably looks down upon the once-upon-a-time Atlantis.

I would give anything to go back to Lesbos and hear Sappho sing some of her poems. I would, of course, write them all down in English and bring them back, so the world would not own only fragments.

I would like to dress up as a youth and journey to hear Socrates.

I would like to run up to Thermopoli (spelling?) eons back and tell the Spartans to get the hell out of Dodge. I would like to walk to the spot today and read the words written there in stone: "Stranger, tell the Spartans...........".

Oh, ROBBY, you can't really want to know all the jumble of what I think when I think of Ancient Greece!

moxiect
September 22, 2002 - 12:33 pm


Hi Robby and all: Just wanted to let you know I am reading the posts, fascinating so far. As I am using someonelse's computer for the time being until mine is fixed I will be lurking as I am unable to tie up my daughters phone too long.

robert b. iadeluca
September 22, 2002 - 12:36 pm
Your passion just pours out, MaryPage, and even if you never get to actually visit those isles (and who can read the future?!), I believe that our discussion here will bring us very close to experiencing those feelings.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 22, 2002 - 12:37 pm
Glad you're with us, Moxi! We'll be looking forward to your comments.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 22, 2002 - 12:44 pm
"In these propitious waters the acquisitive Phoenicians and the amphibious Greeks developed the art and science of navigation. Here they built ships for the most part larger or faster, and yet more easily handled, than any that had yet sailed the Mediterranean. Slowly, despite pirates and harassing uncertainties, the water routes from Europe and Africa into Asia -- through Cyprus, Sidon, and Tyre, or through the Aegean and the Black Sea -- became cheaper than the long land routes, arduous and perilous, that had carried so much of the commerce of Egypt and the Near East.

"Egypt, then Mesopotamia, then Persia withered. Phoenicia deposited an empire of cities along the African coast -- in Sicily -- in Spain -- and Greece blossomed like a watered rose."

While I had read a considerable amount about what had transpired on land in Ancient Greece, speaking for myself -- I had no idea how close its life was to the water.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 22, 2002 - 12:55 pm
Here is some INFORMATION about island after island after island after island after -- or didn't you know there were that many islands!

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
September 22, 2002 - 01:15 pm
My sister who sailed around the Greek island twice said that after finishing volume two of 'Life of Greece' each of us would be dying for a trip there, we will be so enamoured with Greece.

In just one day, I don't have enough time to visit all the links, read all the posts, plus pages of the book, and more beautiful links yet to come, I need more then 24 hours to prevent the images from fading from my memory before continuing with something more down to earth. Let us enjoy this to the utmost shall we?

Eloïse

Malryn (Mal)
September 22, 2002 - 02:12 pm

The Greek Islands consist of volcanic rock. There can be earthquakes along with volcanoes which change the shape of the land. After reading the descriptions of Greek Islands in Corelli's Mandolin I had the feeling that these islands are alive. There seems to be a magic about them which people can't help but feel, not just the blue, blue water, but the moving, changing land itself.

When I was younger, I knew many people who had come from Greece and settled in the United States because there is a large Greek population in my hometown. Their food, their language, their spirit, there is something magic about them, too.

I have often wanted to go to Greece, but after reading and discussing Our Oriental Heritage, I've wanted to spend time in India and then move on to China and Japan. Though brought up on Greek legacies, I could relate very much to ways of thinking in India and the Orient. Now to reconsider people like Aristotle, who was one of my heroes when I was young, and to think about Greek mythology and Greek plays I have read. This is a real adventure for me.

Mal

CallieK
September 22, 2002 - 02:24 pm
My trip to Greece was a study tour conducted by a professor who taught at the American University in Athens for seven years - and has continued to go back to Greece for at least six weeks every year since then. The tour theme was "From Homer to Zorba-Greek Culture and Cinema". Homer's "..sailing the wine dark sea.." quote was featured on our packet cover.
Because "Professor Andy" wanted to show us his Greece, we first went to the little island of Kea - off the mainland via the port of Lavrio (look to the right of Athens - near the temple of Sounion - on a map). Cruise ships do not go there, although it is a popular vacation spot for Europeans.
From there, we did a land-tour from Athens-Delphi-Ioannina-Meteora-Athens. Then we had an overnight trip on a regular Greek ferry to Crete, where we visited Iraklion, Matala, and Chania. From there, we went to Santorini and back to Athens before returning home.
I feel as if I learned so much about Greek life because Andy speaks "marketplace" Greek and seemed to know someone every place we went. We ate in roadside tavernas, went swimming in the Aegean and the Mediterranean and were encouraged to interact with the "locals" wherever we were.
In addition to seeing a movie about Greece or filmed in Greece or written/directed by a Greek every day, we met Greek film maker Theo Angelopolous and writer Katerina Zaracosta, who spoke about women Greek authors.


Re: Knossos "air-conditioning"... The doors connecting the rooms were built with transoms. The doors were covered with animal skins for privacy, but the transoms allowed air to circulate between the rooms. Thus....air conditioning! (I have a photo showing this, but would need to send it to someone for posting. Interested?)

robert b. iadeluca
September 22, 2002 - 02:26 pm
Feel free to read about THE PEARLS OF THE AEGEAN SEA in the Italian comments rather than the English.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 22, 2002 - 02:29 pm
Callie:--We are all eating our hearts out!!!

Robby

CallieK
September 22, 2002 - 02:30 pm
<BG>, ROBBIE. Not sure how much that will help me participate in this discussion - but I will enjoy reading all the comments.

robert b. iadeluca
September 22, 2002 - 02:37 pm
Here is the ISLE OF KEA of which Callie spoke where "Professor Andy" grew up.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
September 22, 2002 - 02:51 pm

Robby, I'm getting an Error 404 message for your Pearls of the Aegean Sea link.

Callie, if your photo can be sent by email, send it to me at Malryn@aol.com as an attached file, and I'll put it on a web page and post the link here.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
September 22, 2002 - 02:58 pm
Mal:--I clicked on it again and it came right through. Did anyone else get it?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
September 22, 2002 - 03:04 pm

Robby, that link is coming through fine on MSIE for me, but not on Netscape. I just switched browsers and was able to access the page.

Mal

Éloïse De Pelteau
September 22, 2002 - 03:19 pm
I got "Pearls of the Aegean Sea" link fine and bathed in the bluegreen waters of the Mediterranean, gazed at the blue, ochre and red roof tops, whitewashed villas against the blue sky, walked on the stone pavement and I clicked on every village listed.

Please stop before I fly off to Greece right now.

robert b. iadeluca
September 22, 2002 - 04:39 pm
I won't keep giving reminders but I hope that everyone is alert to the periodic change of the GREEN quotes in the Heading.

"'There is a land called Crete, in the midst of the wine-dark sea, a fair, rich land, begirt with water. And therein are many men past counting, and ninety cities.' When Homer sang these lines, perhaps in the ninth century before our era, Greece had almost forgotten, though the poet had not, that the island, whose wealth seemed to him even then so great had once been wealthier still -- that it had held sway with a powerful fleet over most of the Aegean and part of mainland Greece -- that it had developed, a thousand years before the siege of Troy, one of the most artistic civilizations in history.

"Probably it was this Aegean culture -- as ancient to him as he is to us -- that Homer recalled when he spoke of a Golden Age in which men had been more civilized, and life more refined, than in his own disordered time.

"Here was an island twenty times larger than the largest of the Cyclades, pleasant in climate, varied in the products of its fields and once richly wooded hills, and strategically placed, for trade or war, midway between Phoenicia and Italy, between Egypt and Greece. Aristotle had pointed out how excellent this situation was, and how 'it had enabled Minos to acquire the empire of the Aegean.'"

In this forum we discuss the passage of long periods of time to the point where it is easy for us to ignore the rapid passage of the centuries. Durant, at this point in his book, is discussing events that took place between 3500 and 1000 B.C. Add on to this the 2000 years of our era and we are examining civilizations that existed between 5000 and 6000 years ago. So Aristotle about 2,500 years ago was commenting on an empire another 2,500 years or so before his time. What we call ancient Greece (the time of Aristotle) had apparently "forgotten" that a high civilization had existed on Crete millennia before that period.

Boggles the mind.

Robby

CallieK
September 22, 2002 - 04:40 pm
That's it, ROBBIE. We traveled around Kea in a school bus, because our "tour driver" was the local bus driver; our sightseeing began after he had taken the kids to school! Our hotel was just to the left of the harbor picture (Korissia). In the evenings, the street was full of people strolling, visiting, and sitting outside tavernas. One evening, we saw about a dozen sheep carcasses hanging outside a meat market. Eww!
We explored Hora (Ioulis) on foot because vehicles cannot go on the tiny streets. I didn't walk to see the Lion of Kea, but others did. We went to the Moni Panagias Kastriani (monastary) - stunning views. A Minoan palace has been excavated on the road from Korrisia to Kastriani.
We enjoyed wild thyme honey and candied apricots. Breakfast was delayed one morning because the bakery was late opening and the hotel owner would not serve the meal until she could get fresh-baked bread.

Andy didn't grow up on Kea - but now owns a "home" (three-room apartment) there. He is American.


MAL: Thanks for the offer. I will scan and send the Knossos picture ASAP.


Thus endeth the travelogue - 'cause that's not what this discussion is all about!!! (^_^)

robert b. iadeluca
September 22, 2002 - 04:44 pm
I beg to differ with you. This forum is enriched not only by Durant but by every participant here.

Robby

CallieK
September 22, 2002 - 04:46 pm
Thank you for the kind words, Robbie. I am hunting out my notes and hand-outs from the trip and hope I can put them to use here.

kiwi lady
September 22, 2002 - 06:09 pm
Another coincidence, Auckland is a city of volcanos. There is Rangitoto Island our newest about 600 years since it had a full eruption. It is our most impressive. I must look up and see how many there are in total 9 sticks in my head but I will look it up on the web.

Carolyn

kiwi lady
September 22, 2002 - 06:28 pm
There are 50 islands in the Gulf. Here is a link (I hope) http://www.gotothegulf.com/cup.htm

When you get to this page go to the home page and at the bottom is a map of the gulf at the top is buttons for the various islands. PS I am not trying to push the cup it was just the best site I found.

Carolyn

kiwi lady
September 22, 2002 - 06:58 pm
Aucklands volcanos

Here is a link

http://www.arc.govt.nz/volcanic/field.htm

Carolyn

Justin
September 22, 2002 - 07:44 pm
Wonderful to find myself among the Cyclades and on Crete with the Knossos lapis lazuli frescoes to look at again. The frescoes which Mal has shown us are the Blue Birds and the Blue Ladies. They date from the 16th Century BCE and are of excellent quality. They can be compared fairly with those we saw in Ceylon on the walls and in the caves. They are from the same period. Some pieces from the Aknatun period in Egypt are also comparable. I am talking about the Amarna period which we have recently examined. These similarities in art in and around the 10th to the 15th century tell us that the Minoans were seafaring and at their height in the 12th century when they were wiped out they were trading in the Mediteranean and the Aegean. They were probably trading with the Egyptians as well as with Mainland Greece.

Justin
September 22, 2002 - 11:03 pm
In posting # 25 Mal gives us images of Cycladic Dancers. These are tiny sculptures in clay. They are in the Iraklion Museum and they are rare in the Cycladic collection. Most of these little pieces under five inches high and are plain in form and coloration. The dancers we see in 25 are enhanced by a second color which gives the figures more character than we usually see. The faces of these figures are not blank as is usual. They are defined.A comparison of these pieces would make a very nice art history paper for the journals.

Some of the Cycladics were inhabited by Minoans as far back as 5000 years ago. Milo for example, falls in that category. Milo of course, is the island where the great Venus was found.

While Patmos is not a Cycladic, it is noteworthy in that it is the place where John of Revelations wrote his strange tale.

robert b. iadeluca
September 23, 2002 - 02:36 am
Carolyn (Kiwi):--Thank you for that very clear map of the Auckland volcanoes -- a great similarity to the map of the Grecian area.

Justin:--Many thanks for the background history which helps us to understand the civilization of that time.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 23, 2002 - 03:49 am
"The story of Minos, accepted as fact by all classical writers, was rejected as legend by modern scholars. Until sixty years ago it was the custom to suppose that the history of civilization in the Aegean had begun with the Dorian invasion, or the Olympic games. Then in A.D. 1878 a Cretan merchant, appropriately named Minos Kalokairinos, unearthed some strange antiquities on a hillside south of Candia.

"The great Schliemann, who had but lately resurrected Mycenae and Troy, visited the site in 1886, announced his conviction that it covered the remains of the ancient Cnossus, and opened negotiations with the owner of the land so that excavations might begin at once. But the owner haggled and tried to cheat. Schliemann, who had been a merchant before becoming an archeologist, withdrew in anger, losing a golden chance to add another civilization to history. A few years later he died.

"In 1893 a British archeologist, Dr. Arthur Evans, bought in Athens a number of milkstones from Greek women who had worn them as amulets. He was curious about the hieroglyphics engraved upon them, which no scholar could read. Tracing the stones to Crete, he secured passage thither, and wandered about the island picking up examples of what he believed to be ancient Cretan writing.

"In 1895 he purchased a part, and in 1900 the remainder, of the site that Schliemann and the French School at Athens had identified with Cnossus. In nine weeks of that spring, digging feverishly with one hundred and fifty men, he exhumed the richest treasure of modern historical research -- the palace of Minos. The palace is to all appearances identical with the almost endless Labyrinth so famous in old Greek tales of Minos, Daedalus, Thesus, Ariadne, and the Minotaur.

"In these and other ruins, as if to confirm Evans' intuition, thousands of seals and clay tablets were found, bearing characters like those that had set him upon the trail. The fires that had destroyed the palaces of Cnossus had preserved these tablets, whose undeciphered pictographs and scripts still conceal the early story of the Aegean."

A fascinating archeological story!

Robby

Bubble
September 23, 2002 - 03:56 am
Anyone knows what language they talked at Knossos at that time? These undeciphered tablets fascinate me, just like the Mayan huge hieroglyphs do. Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
September 23, 2002 - 04:21 am
HERE is the Legend of the Minotaur.

Robby

Bubble
September 23, 2002 - 04:57 am
That Minotaur story is such a wonderful tale with love, bravoure, great deeds and sorrow all mixed in. But that is all in Greek mythology, isn't it? And that is also why it continues to appeal to us today. A labyrinth in French is still called a dedale, from that famous Greek builder

OrchidLady
September 23, 2002 - 06:50 am
Sea Bubble - could it be a primitive form of Greek? I think Linear B I believe it is, was deciphered in the early 50s by an Englishman whose name I can't remember - names have gone for me -and he showed that this language which seemed so foreign actually was related to Greek. So the earlier Linea A perhaps is an even earlier form of Greek.

Have you read any of the novels by Edith Hamilton, I think her name was. She wrote a series of them about Greek mythological figures, and aspects of the life at the times. They are wonderful. I can still remember her description -Theseus going through the labyrinth and the description of the Minotaur. Her book is fiction but she gives a reaonable explanation of what might have been factual, and over centures is developed into mythology. Louise

Malryn (Mal)
September 23, 2002 - 07:01 am

GREEK LANGUAGE HISTORY

MORE GREEK LANGUAGE HISTORY

ANCIENT GREEK LANGUAGE AND ALPHABET

Malryn (Mal)
September 23, 2002 - 07:18 am

The link below takes you to the Arthur Evans Gallery in the Ashmolean Museum and shows some of the antiquities Dr. Evans found in Crete. Scroll down to see the pictures.

ASHMOLEAN MUSEUM

robert b. iadeluca
September 23, 2002 - 07:29 am
Lots of enlightening and thought-provoking information being shared here!

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 23, 2002 - 07:39 am
"Students from many countries hurried to Crete. While Evans was working at Cnossus, a group of resolute Italians -- Halbherr, Pernier, Savignoni, Parbeni -- unearthed at Hagia Triada (Holy Trinity) a sarcophagus painted with illuminating scenes from Cretan life, and uncovered at Phaestus a palace only less extensive than that of the Cnossus kings.

"Meanwhile two Americans, Seager and Mrs. Hawes, made discoveries at Vasiliki, Mochlos, and Gournia. The British -- Hogarth, Bosanquet, Dawkins, Myres -- explored Palaikastro, Psychro, and Zakro. The Cretans themselves became interested, and Xanthoudidis and Hatzidakis dug up ancient residences, grottoes, and tombs at Arkalochori, Tylissus, Koumasa, and Chamaizi.

"Half the nations of Europe united under the flag of science in the very generation in which their statesmen were preparing for war."

Robby

Bubble
September 23, 2002 - 08:19 am
Those texts about the Greek language were so interesting. I now understand better the difference with modern Greek too. I was interested because Modern Greece face the same problem Israel did about having their own national language and here Hebrew too had to be revived from a classical rigid frame. It is less simplified than the Greek has been. Thanks Mal for those links!

OrchidLady
September 23, 2002 - 08:22 am
MAL, I have just one thing to say to you. It is bad enough that this is the most fascinating discussion group in Sr; Net - well, this and WREX are kind of in a tie on this one.

But if you are going to put in those wonderful links which are so great to read, when will I get time to write another line??? Louise

robert b. iadeluca
September 23, 2002 - 08:32 am
Louise:--Have you tried lessening your hours of sleep?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
September 23, 2002 - 08:34 am

Thank you, BUBBLE. LOUISE, get in that word processor and finish that story so I can publish it in the October issue of The WREX Magazine. These links will still be here when you're done.

The first link here shows a stone sarcophagus found at Hagia Triada. The second link takes you to a page which has a floor plan diagram of the palace at Knossos and numerous, numerous links to rooms in that palace and Greek antiquities found there and in that area.



STONE SARCOPHAGUS

PALACE OF KING MINOS

robert b. iadeluca
September 23, 2002 - 08:46 am
For those interested in the origins and uses of such words as labyrinth and maze, click HERE

Robby

Bubble
September 23, 2002 - 09:17 am
WOW Robby! Have you ever walked a maze? I think I would coward and never dare entering one. I think the way people act in one must tell a lot about them. That is a question to the psy...

robert b. iadeluca
September 23, 2002 - 09:51 am
Click HERE for statue of the slaying of the Minotaur.

Robby

CallieK
September 23, 2002 - 10:03 am
In Mal's link to The Palace of King Minos, there is a link called "Gold Pendant". It shows the one I was talking about getting as a special souvenir. Mine is about the size of my thumbnail!!!


About the time of my trip to Greece, I read a paperback novel titled "Shadows of the Aegean". The premise was that the volcano eruption on Santorini destroyed the palaces on Crete. It was fascinating to visit the actual settings and speculate on the possibilities.

kiwi lady
September 23, 2002 - 11:18 am
The Minoan Civilization was always thought to be a myth until the discovery of the tablets. Wonder how many myths are really fact? (slightly embroidered of course)The thing I find so fascinating is the technical expertise of these people. It is truly mind boggling!

Carolyn

Bubble
September 23, 2002 - 01:06 pm
Look at the coincidence: this I received in my mail today! WORD A DAY - "daedal,"



WORD: daedal \DEE-dul\ (adjective)



: Cunningly or ingeniously formed or working; skillful; art- istic; ingenious.



WORD WISE: Daedal comes from Latin daedalus, from Greek dai- dalos. In Greek mythology, Daedalus ("the cunning one") was an Athenian inventor who built the Labyrinth at Crete to confine the Minotaur. Imprisoned in the Labyrinth when he fell out of favor with King Minos, he fashioned wings out of wax for himself and his son Icarus to escape. Icarus, however, flew too close to the sun, and his wings melted; he fell into the Aegean and drowned.

MaryPage
September 23, 2002 - 02:59 pm
LOUISE, I second your recommendation of the Edith Hamilton books. There is another author, a woman as well, whose name I cannot pull up at the moment, but I believe I have one of her books as yet unread, and I will hunt it down.

I also second ROBBY in saying the details of touring Greece are most welcome here. That's precisely what we're doing is it not?: touring Greece in a time machine!

I remember! MARY RENAULT! I strongly recommend her if you have missed her books!

Oh, and yes, I have walked a number of mazes; none difficult. The one I remember best is the one at Hampton Court Palace in England.

Tucson Pat
September 23, 2002 - 04:51 pm
Lurking and learning. Will comment, should any scrap of wisdom/knowledge surface. : )

OrchidLady
September 23, 2002 - 04:57 pm
MARY PAGE, Mary Renault is the name I was trying to think of. Her stories are great, and I learned a lot from them. I wish I had kept at least two or three of her stories - I'd enjoy re-reading them. Louise

robert b. iadeluca
September 23, 2002 - 04:57 pm
We are all learning here, Pat. Your opinions are always welcome.

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
September 23, 2002 - 05:22 pm
HERE is a fabulous map of the area we are presently looking at in "Life of Greece."

I clicked on Constantinople and lo and behold was the whole city at my feet. At the top right corner you see a brilliant trangle that says (SUITE) you click on it and you can view absolutely wonderful photos of monuments of this rich city. Le texte est en français, mais ça ne fait rien.

Eloïse

robert b. iadeluca
September 23, 2002 - 06:51 pm
Thank you for that great map, Eloise. Notice the city of Troy just a short distance across the Aegean Sea. It is still a thousand years before the siege of Troy but Durant will speak to us about that in detail later on.

Also of interest (especially to those of us who spent much time in discussing Our Oriental Heritage) is the fact that Troy is in Asia whereas Greece is in Europe. Ever so gradually, as we follow Durant, we are moving westward toward a Western Civilization.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 23, 2002 - 07:22 pm
"How was all this material in Crete to be classified -- these palaces, paintings, statues, seals, vases, metals, tablets, and reliefs? -- to what period of the past were they to be assigned? Precariously, but with increasing corroboration as research went on and knowledge grew, Evans dated the relics according to the depth of their strata, the gradation of styles in the pottery, and the agreement of Cretan finds, in form or motive, with like objects exhumed in lands or deposits whose chronology was approximately known.

"Digging down patiently beneath Cnossus, he found himself stopped, some forty-three feet below the surface, by the virgin rock. The lower half of the excavated area was occupied by remains characteristic of the Neolithic Age -- primitive forms of handmade pottery with simple linear ornament, spindle whorls for spinning and weaving, fat-buttocked goddesses of painted steatite or clay, tools and weapons of polished stone, but nothing in copper or bronze.

"Classifying the pottery, and correlating the remains with those of ancient Mesopotamia and Egypt, Evans divided the postneolithic and prehistoric culture of Crete into three ages -- Early, Middle, and Late Minoan -- and each of these into three periods."

How painstaking is the science of archeology!! What Durant tells us in a few sentences takes months and years to deduce.

Robby

kiwi lady
September 23, 2002 - 08:01 pm
I don't have an atlas at hand but isn't Constantinople in Turkey now? I am sure Cenc a friend of my daughters said he was born in Constantinople and I know he is Turkish. The Moors would have conquered that part of the world and the Muslim connection established.

Carolyn

Justin
September 23, 2002 - 10:21 pm
Istambul had been the capitol of Turkey since about 1450. The city is no longer the capitol but is still a part of Turkey. It is the only city I know of that is located on two continents.

Bubble
September 24, 2002 - 02:26 am
Mary Renault wrote "The mask of Apollo" ,didn't she, Louise?



Istanbul is in Turkey now of course, but the history of Greece and Turkey is so mixed one with the other, even if today they act as enemies. Lots of Turkish families still have family names of Greek origin to prove it. My husband is always asked if he is from Greece, although his family was from Turkey for many generations.



That map found by Eloise was very clear and informative. Worth saving for later too. Bubble

Éloïse De Pelteau
September 24, 2002 - 03:18 am
In digging deeper in this French web site, there is what is called "the nine cities of Troy" excavation. Be sure to click on the enlargment to view each of the levels. The Acropolis identified by Schliemann as Homer's Troy at the second level. Dörpfeld's, Homer's Troy at the 1V level. At the 1X level, the Greek and Roman Acropolis, the other level up to now.

----------TROIE-----------

Eloïse

robert b. iadeluca
September 24, 2002 - 03:34 am
"The first or lowest appearance of copper in the strata in Crete represents for us the slow rise of a new civilization out of the neolithic stage. By the end of the Early Minoan Age the Cretans learn to mix copper with tin, and the Bronze Age begins.

"In Middle Minoan I, the earliest palaces occur. The princes of Cnossus, Phaestus, and Mallia build for themselves luxurious dwellings with countless rooms, spacious storehouses, specialized workshops, altas and temples, and great drainage conduits that startle the arrogant Occidental eye. Pottery takes on a many-colored brilliance, walls are enlivened with charming frescoes, and a form of linear script evolves out of the hieroglyphics of the preceding age.

"Then, at the close of Middle Minoan II, some strange catastrophe writes its cynical record into the strata. The palace of Cnossus is laid low as if by a convulsion of the earth, or perhaps by an attack from Phaestus, whose palace for a time is spared. But a little later a like destruction falls upon Phaestus, Mochlos, Gournia, Palaikastro, and many other cities in the island. The pottery is covered with ashes, the great jars in the storerooms are filled with debris.

"Middle Minoan III is a period of comparative stagnation in which the southeastern Mediterranean world is long disordered by the Hyksos conquest of Egypt."

A reminder to everyone that at the start of this volume Durant is talking about a time much earlier than often discussed in history books. He is talking about the period from 3500 to 1000 B.C. Activity with which many of us are acquainted takes place in this part of the world but at a much later date.

Robby

tooki
September 24, 2002 - 06:39 am
Edith Hamilton, 1867-1963, wrote many books on Greece,including mythology. Another literate scorce for mythology, besides Bullflinch,is Robert Graves. Mary Renault wrote many books on mythological subjects such as "The Bull From the Sea," and "The Mask of Appollo." I'm still trying to find a copy of "The Life of Greece" without buying the whole set. I'm not a good library user because once a book is in my hands I won't give it back.

robert b. iadeluca
September 24, 2002 - 07:48 am
Tooki:--Talking lurkers are heartily welcomed here!! I hope you are lucky in obtaining a copy of "The Life of Greece" but until then, please keep your eye on the GREEN quotes in the Heading which help to keep us all together as we share our thoughts.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 24, 2002 - 08:08 am
"In the Late Minoan Age everything begins again. New and finer palaces rise at Cnossus, Phaestus, Tylissus, Hagia Triada, and Gournia. The lordly spread, the five-storied height, the luxurious docoration of these princely residences suggest such wealth as Greece would not know until Pericles. Theaters are erected in the palace courts, and gladiatorial spectacles of men and women in deadly combat with animals amuse gentlemen and ladies whose aristocratic faces, quietly alert, still live for us on the bright frescoes of the resurrected walls.

"Wants are multiplied, tastes are refined, literature flourishes. A thousand industries graciously permit the poor to prosper by supplying comforts and delicacies to the rich. The halls of the king are noisy with scribes taking inventories of goods distributed or received -- with artists making statuary, paintings, pottery, or refliefs -- with high officials conducting conferences, hearing judicial appeals, or dispatching papers stamped with their finely wrought seals -- while wasp-wasted princes and jeweled duchesses, alluringly decollete, crowd to a royal feast served on tables shining with bronze and gold."

Hard to believe -- that all this took place in Crete approximately 3,000 years before Plato or Socrates or Aristotle were born!!

Robby

Bubble
September 24, 2002 - 08:19 am
It shows that ways of life and luxurious tastes are universal and come back cyclicly everywhere. The descriptions could well be at the court of Louis XIV of France, in Versailles.

OrchidLady
September 24, 2002 - 11:58 am
Sea Bubble, yes, Mary Renault wrote Mask of Apollo - I read it maybe 35 years ago, so I've forgotten parts of it, but I remember how she explained how the actors could manage to be heard in every part of the amphitheatre they performed in. She referred to a device set in the masks they wore, which amplified the voice, and also, openings in the amphitheatre, along the base of the seats in certain locations, which reflected the voices of the actors back. All her books are fascinating.

TOOKI, you are not being a good example to people like me. I take books from the library and I keep them as long as I can, but then I start getting calls from the library, progressively more hostile in tone and I am forced to bring the books back. I don't borrow books from individuals, as I am apt to "forget" to return them, and for the same reason I NEVER loan any of my books out (except perhaps for a very few I don't care much about. Certain ones, currently books byu McCullough and Ellis, are never loaned to anybody)

ELOISE, which is the level of Troy that scientists today think was the level at the time of the Trojan war? I had an idea it was around 6 or further up. As I remember Schleimann had an earlier date???? Excuse the spelling, I think I am going to spell phonetically from now on, it saves time._ Louise


EDIT, I went back to your post, and Sch. picked ;the second one down? He started from the top? I seem to remember that current scholars choose another level for Homer's Troy?

OrchidLady
September 24, 2002 - 12:35 pm
I am puzzled by Durant's comment about the Arrogant Occidental Eye. The word "snide" comes creeping into my mind. I have always thought the Minoan and Mycenaene civilizations are Greek = Proto Greek? - or whatever, and I have always believe that the civilization of Greece was a western civilization not an Oriental one.

One might "to and fro" about Turkey, for example, but I don't think I've read or heard a word implying Greece and its civilizations were anything but western. In fact, I seem to remember that there is a theory that the Dorian Greeks came from somewhere in the Balkans???? Louise

Justin
September 24, 2002 - 01:48 pm
I have always thought of Greece as a center of Orientalism, of eastern thought. Their religion is orthodox. They transmitted Byzantine art elements to the west and Helenism carried an eastern influence to the classical imitations of Rome. They are on the border between eastern and western ideas. When the Crusaders left Italy for the Dalmation coast they entered the eastern half of the Roman Empire. Constantinople, the seat of byzantine culture is a grecian neighbor. Greece however, is also western in the sense that Aristoelian ideas were adopted by the western church in Rome. The views of Plato have become so associated with the west we tend to think of them as western. This is a complex question. Not one to be tossed off lightly. I am inclined to put aside further comment until the last chapter.

Malryn (Mal)
September 24, 2002 - 03:02 pm

Mysterious Scripts of Ancient Greece

OrchidLady
September 24, 2002 - 04:25 pm
JUSTIN, I agree it is a complex question. I suppose the first thing to be settled is "where is the East". Is it a geographical location-which is, I guess what most of us learned in school - or a "cultural divide?" Louise

OrchidLady
September 24, 2002 - 04:30 pm
"a center of eastern thought. Interesting. I think of a space, an object, an area,a circle etc. as having only one center.

Of course,there could be many circles. Louise

robert b. iadeluca
September 24, 2002 - 04:30 pm
THE RECONSTRUCTION OF A CIVILIZATION

"If now we try to restore this buried culture from the relics that remain, let us remember that we are engaging upon a hazardous kind of historical television, in which imagination must supply the living continuity in the gaps of static and fragmentary material artificially moving but long since dead. Crete will remain inwardly unknown until its secretive tablets find their Champollion.

"Male and female alike have torsos narrowing pathologically to an ultramodern waist. Nearly all are short in stature, slight and supple of build, graceful in movement, athletically trim. Their skin is white at birth. The ladies, who court the shade, have fair complexions conventionally pale. The men, pursuing wealth under the sun, are so tanned and ruddy that the Greeks will call them (as well as the Phoenicians) Phoinikes -- the Purple Ones, Redskins.

"The head is rather long than broad, the features are sharp and refined, the hair and eyes are brilliantly dark, as in the Italians of today. These Cretans are apparently a branch of the 'Mediterranean race.' The men as well as the women wear their hair partly in coils on the head or the neck, partly in ringlets on the brow, partly in tresses falling upon the shoulders of the breast. The women add ribbons for their curls, while the men, to keep their faces clean, provide themselves with a variety of razors, even in the grave."

Does this sound Oriental or Occidental?

Robby

OrchidLady
September 24, 2002 - 04:38 pm
It sounds Occidental to me. The white skin, and the long curly hair sound Occidental. On the other hand, the slim supple bodies seem to sound Oriental. But I know very little about things Oriental.

The emphasis on fashion, on certain elements that are considered beautiful, the slim waist, the long hair, the pale skin sound like quotes from a Western fashion magazine, fashions in vogue and then passe, and then in the fullness of time, back in fashion again.Louise
.

kiwi lady
September 24, 2002 - 05:08 pm
Sounds like what I all the Mediterannean People.

Louise I read too that Dorian Greeks came from somewhere in the Balkans.

I also read that there were Basque Greeks.

Yesterday I found a page by Jane Eastman Anthropologist who said the Minoans whole civilization revolved around the palaces which were the centre of their society. The hoi polloi lived in small villages, Sounds a bit like early British History doesn't it? I guess everything just repeats itself given enough time!

Éloïse De Pelteau
September 24, 2002 - 05:34 pm
Louise - On the first map I gave of the area, you will see the city of Troy, if you click on that, there are the levels where archeologists worked. Schliemann found Troy at the second level "blue" and Dörpfeld claimed it was at the VI level which reached to the top of the mound. Both found ramparts, but in my mind, Schliemann's claim makes more sense, Troy would be at the bottom of the mound, not at the top.

Yes Robby, it really looks like an Occidental civilization doesn't it? except for this: "The ladies, who court the shade, have fair complexions conventionally pale".

Eloïse

OrchidLady
September 24, 2002 - 06:03 pm
Eloise, I'm not sure I would equate "light skin" with an Oriental relationship. I think the word "white" was also used to describe the Minoan skin color. If I remember correctly, in the last century there was a lot of anxiety about immigrants from the Orient, and the possible dangers arising from the "yellow" horde. It does seem that "white" would not be the word commonly used to describe the appearance of Orientals. Louise

robert b. iadeluca
September 24, 2002 - 06:11 pm
"On their heads -- most often bare -- the men have turbans or tam-o'-shanters, the women magnificent hats of our early twentieth-century style. The feet are usually free of covering, but the upper classes may bind them in white leather shoes, which among women may be daintily embroidered at the edges, with colored beads on the straps.

"Ordinarily the male has no clothing above the waist. There he wears a short skirt or waistcloth, occasionally with a codpiece for modesty. The skirt may be slit at the side in workingmen. In dignitaries and ceremonies it reaches in both sexes to the ground. Occasionally the men wear drawers, and in winter a long outer garment of wool or skins. The clothing is tightly laced about the middle, for men as well as women are resolved to be -- or seem -- triangularly slim.

"To rival the men at this point, the women of the later periods resort to stiff corsets, which gather their skirts snugly around the hips, and lift their bare breats to the sun. It is a pretty custom among the Cretans that the female bosom should be uncovered, or revealed by a diaphanous chemise. No one seems to take offense. The bodice is laced below the bust, opens in a careless circle, and then, in a gesture of charming reserve, may close in a Medici collar at the neck. The sleeves are short, sometimes puffed. The skirt, adorned with founces and gay tints, widens out spaciously from the hips, stiffened presumably with metal ribs or horizontal hoops.

"There are in the arrangement and design of Cretan feminine dress a warm harmony of colors, a grace of line, a delicacy of taste, that suggest a rich and luxurious civilization, already old in arts and wiles. In these matters the Cretans had no influence upon the Greeks, only in modern capitals have their styles triumphed.

"Even staid archeologists have given the name La Parisienne to the portrait of a Cretan lady with profulgent bosom, shapely neck, sensual mouth, impudent nose, and a persuasive, procative charm. She sits saucily before us today as part of a frieze in which high personages gaze upon some spectacle that we shall never see."

Here we see Durant as writer for a fashion magazine. "Profulgent?"

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
September 24, 2002 - 06:26 pm

ANCIENT GREEK WOMEN’S CLOTHES

ANCIENT GREEK MEN’S CLOTHES

Malryn (Mal)
September 24, 2002 - 07:41 pm

ANCIENT GREEK HAIRSTYLES

HISTORY OF PERFUME ANCIENT GREECE Click small image

tooki
September 24, 2002 - 09:17 pm
I have encountered this phrase in art readings. (And all the time it came from Durant). It refers, I think, to the direct gaze of most western, or occidental, art. In most western figurative art the subject gazes directly out at the viewer. I can think of no oriental art wherein the figure(s) gaze directly at the viewer. They look down, sideways - never directly at the viewer. In this sense the Creten ladies are oriental because they never look at us directly. The most arrogant eye ever belonged to Picasso. His arrogant eyes are always on you in all his self portraits. Primitive art shares this directness of gaze. It can be unsettling and intrusive.

Faithr
September 24, 2002 - 09:51 pm
Well I have spent this evening catching up on the posts. I also spent a lot of time on the links and I hope everyone knows how much I appreciate those links, it adds so much to this discussion to go to those sites. I again do not have the Durant book so depend on Robbies green quotes plus his quotes in the opening of discussions each day or so.

I have always loved the stories and myths of Greece and for some years read a lot of books regarding Greek Islands History. Shimmlemans book was a wonderful story of how to become an "archiologist"plus establishing Troy as a real place though perhaps the epic poems and the stories are mythical. I remember once reading in relation to the story of Appollo that Delphi was the omphalous of the world...so I looked up the word then I went on a long search in the library to learn more about the gods and goddess' in Greek Mythology. Which lead me to read much Ancient History of the Aegean Islands. Such an interesting evening I have had. Thanks to this discussion group. Faith R

Justin
September 24, 2002 - 10:33 pm
Rules in art are made to be broken. Oriental figurative art is a good mix of gazers and one off lookers. Occidental art is a good mix of gazers and one off lookers. Consider: Gudea at Babylon 2100BCE; Sheik el Belel,Egypt, 2400BCE; Senmut, Thebes, 1450; Dancers, Amarna Period,1450BCE, Snake Goddess, Knossos, 1600BCE; Apollo, Mantiklos, Greece,680BCE; Kourosfrom Tenea, Greece, 570BCE, Justinian and Theodora with Maximillian at Ravenna; Shansi Buddha, 480 CE. These works are all oriental and they stare right into your eyes.

Try the western end of the spectrum. Bernini, Pisano, Duccio, Cavalini, Donatello, Buonaroti, Bronzino, Titian, Houdon, Gainsborough, and Hopper. These artists are all western and their portrait figures are in the main diverted in gaze. The subject is complex. There are few simple rules that work.

Justin
September 24, 2002 - 11:45 pm
The Dorian Invasion ocurred about 1100BCE. Both Kitto and Bury seem to think that Dorians are of Illyrian stock. That means they came from Macedonia and from Anatolia. Herodotus says they were "Helenic". The evidence we have today, seems to confirm that position. I wonder who advanced the view that the Balkans were a plausible source? Can anyone provide a citation?

I think we are getting out in front of Durant in talking about Dorians. We have barely scratched the surface of the Minoans and have not examined the Myceneans yet.

kiwi lady
September 25, 2002 - 12:27 am
The thing I find frustrating in many discussions about ancient civilizations is that there is very little written about the ordinary citizens. I presume this is because they had very little therefore they left no relics for archeologists to find.

The Minoan Society differs very little from life in 2002 in my opinion. There is an obsession with the physical appearance of the individual and with material things. Its like history continually repeats itself.

Thank you everyone for the links.

Carolyn

Bubble
September 25, 2002 - 01:49 am
Profulgent?



fulgent= shining, bright. fulgour= splendour. fulgid = flashing. Pro- of course is the Greek for before, in front. The word fits well the "Parisienne"!



Louise, I heard my mother commenting often on how fair-skinned some of the Egyptians were. Many are also blue-eyed. Cleopatra, I seem to remember, had a very light skin and kept well away from the sun. She also wore her hair in intricated braided style apparently. I wish I remembered the source where I learned that!

Ginny
September 25, 2002 - 02:50 am
Just a note on Sea Bubble's remarks on Cleopatra, if any of you saw the latest Cleopatra E xhibit, (I saw it in London at the British Museum), the theme was that it was thought that Cleopatra was actually of Greek background, I'm sure there's informtation somewhere on that exhibit, it was presented as startling news, maybe that's where you heard of it, Sea Bubble, in reports of that exhibition which had a lot of revelations.

ginny

robert b. iadeluca
September 25, 2002 - 04:11 am
Justin is correct in that we need to be careful that we don't get ahead of Durant. We are still in an era of over 5,000 years ago certainly long before the Golden Age of Greece and even before the Rise of Greece. In fact for a quite a while you will notice that Durant will give a date without the term BCE following it because we all know we are talking about BCE.

Which leads me to a question. I grew up with the term BC (before Christ) and now see how it has become BCE which I interpret to mean "before the Christian Era." If I am correct, then doesn't that make it a bit sloppy? We go under the assumption (possibly false) that Christ was born 2002 years ago. It is an exact date. Something can be 10 BC or 10 AD. But an "era" can be a hundred years long. How can something be 10 years before an era? Will someone please help me on that?

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
September 25, 2002 - 04:34 am
Robby - About 12 years ago I took some college courses and our teacher mentioned that BCE was 'Before The Common Era' and you say that it is 'Before the Christian Era'. Which is right?

American Greeks still keep their unique personality even after being here a long time as I saw in the movie My Big Fat Greek Wedding that Alice mentioned in another discussion. I wonder if she is lurking perhaps should could come out of the lurking mode and tell us something about Life of Greece, What do you say Alice?

Eloïse

Bubble
September 25, 2002 - 04:41 am
As an hypothesis: because you could not date that birth precisely? It could very well have happened 7 years before or 4 years later. One bases oneself on Herod census to fix the date, but that link with the census could have been created later when history was being written down. I grew up with the term A.D. Ante Deo.

MaryPage
September 25, 2002 - 05:30 am
HAPPY BIRTHDAY, ROBBY!

Malryn (Mal)
September 25, 2002 - 05:58 am
HAPPY HAPPY BIRTHDAY, ROBBY! I hope you have a lovely day.

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
September 25, 2002 - 06:07 am
I am told that BCE means BEFORE CURRENT ERA. CE means CURRENT ERA. Most of the Greeks I've known have been dark-haired. I think dressing of hair, interest in clothes and body decoration, whether with jewelry or tattoos have been around almost forever. I like the flowing Grecian clothes and the way women wore their hair. There must have been a profession of hairdressers in Ancient Crete. What I find most interesting is the artwork, ceramics and jewelry, and, of course, the architecture is wonderful.

Yes, let's stop talking Dorian this and Dorian that because I keep thinking of my daughter, whose name is Dorian. She thinks I named her for the Dorian Mode, a musical scale, but I didn't. She's named for my mother, who was Dorothy. Not liking the name "Dorothy" too much, I called my Dorian Dorian.

Mal

OrchidLady
September 25, 2002 - 06:17 am
Another Happy Birthday, Robby. I hope you have a lovely day.

Re Cleopatra being Greek. If I remember correctly, when Alexander died, his conquests were divided among his generals and Ptolomy got Egypt as his share. (?sp. I can't spell anymore)His descendants were Greek - they didn't marry out of the Greek culture, despite ruling Egypt. Louise

Malryn (Mal)
September 25, 2002 - 06:22 am
Below is a link to several pages which have excellent pictures of Crete on them. These photographs were taken by a young couple who set up this website. Click the right arrow at the bottom of each page to access more.

PICTURES OF CRETE

Bubble
September 25, 2002 - 06:42 am
H A P P Y B I R T H D A Y R O B B Y ! ! !

Bubble J

tooki
September 25, 2002 - 06:57 am
Justin, OK, OK. If you think my generalization is too simple, what do you think is implied by "the arrogant occidental eye?" Do you perhaps agree that the direct gaze can be unsettling and intrusive? (And I'm not sure sculpture counts because the viewer can always go to the profile.) Have you actually SEEN the Snake Goddess, Knossos?

Malryn (Mal)
September 25, 2002 - 07:10 am

Tooki, Justin is an art historian. Are you in New York? My granddaughter's other grandmother is called Tookie and lives in NY.

Below is a link to a picture of a fresco found in the Caravanserai south of the Knossos Palace. The Caravanserai was a reception hall and hospice. Some of the rooms are decorated with frescoes and also have baths.
CARAVANSERAI FRESCO

CallieK
September 25, 2002 - 08:28 am
RE: "Greek" coloring/appearances. We were told that the dark-hair/dark eyes of many modern Greeks comes from the long Turkish and Venetian occupations of Greece (dates????). Durant's description of Cretan people is similar. So.....from where did our notion of the blonde, blue-eyed "Adonis" look come?


I have seen "My Big Fat Greek Wedding". The Greek family is portrayed as a large and cohesive unit, severely -and often sarcastically- critical of each other but fiercely loyal and protective, welcoming but skeptical of "outsiders" (in this case, the groom, who has no Greek heritage). The men pronounce all the decisions, but the women definitely have "iron fists in velvet gloves".

HAPPY BIRTHDAY, ROBBIE

moxiect
September 25, 2002 - 08:54 am


H A P P Y B I R T H D A Y R O B B I E

I am totally fascinated by the discussions. I am still awaiting my sick computer to be well. I will have a lot of catching up to do, I love going to the various links that Mal provides and others of course but I can't tie up my daughters phone. I am continuing to lurk and learn at the same time

Ginny
September 25, 2002 - 11:33 am
Happy Happy Birthday, Robby! and many many more!

ginny

robert b. iadeluca
September 25, 2002 - 12:52 pm
Thanks to all of you for the birthday wishes. It's been the best 39th Birthday I've ever had!!

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
September 25, 2002 - 01:25 pm

Tut tut, Robby. I distinctly remember your saying you were 41 yesterday and would be 42 today.

Have you seen your birthday cards HERE?

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
September 25, 2002 - 01:52 pm
I hadn't seen them, Mal. Thank you.

Robby

Justin
September 25, 2002 - 01:56 pm
Happy Birthday, Robby.

Justin
September 25, 2002 - 02:30 pm
Tookie; Some portraits do appear penetrate our space.

Justin
September 25, 2002 - 02:42 pm
Webster lll describes BCE as Before the Common Era and CE as Common Era. This definition provides a secular orientation for dating which removes the uncertainty of religious dating. It also curbs the use of Pre and Post Augustan periods and similar designations which were proposed as alternatives.

robert b. iadeluca
September 25, 2002 - 02:46 pm
Not that I want to get off the topic, but I believe it would help, Justin, if you could help us to designate -- exactly when is the Common Era? Then when Durant gives us a date which is BCE, we will have an idea of what he is talking about.

Robby

Elizabeth N
September 25, 2002 - 04:30 pm
Tooki, www.half.com has a hardcover copy for $3.99 plus postage.

Éloïse De Pelteau
September 25, 2002 - 05:02 pm
Common, Current, Christian, whatever you want to call it all means the same thing. BCE means that an historical event happened before Christ was born at the approximate time of December 25 about 2002 years ago.

robert b. iadeluca
September 25, 2002 - 05:26 pm
WOW! Elizabeth! For those participants and lurkers here who don't yet have the book -- you can't beat $3.99!! And based on the time we spent with Our Oriental Heritage, you have time to buy it.

Robby

kiwi lady
September 25, 2002 - 06:15 pm
Happy Birthday Robbie.

Carolyn

Jo Walker
September 25, 2002 - 08:48 pm
Robby: I think we can continue to mark time as we always have. It seems BCE is the politically correct term for what I always thought meant "Before Christ." Here's what one web site had to say:

Numbering Years

In ancient calendars, years were generally numbered according to the year of a ruler's reign, for example, the third year of Hammurabi's rule. About AD525, a monk named Dionysius suggested that years be counted from the birth of Christ. Today we live in 1999, which is sometimes written AD1999. AD refers to the term anno Domini, or "the year of the Lord." The years before the birth of Christ are numbered backward from his birth. The year before AD1 was 1 BC, or one year "before Christ." When referring to dates before the birth of Christ, the higher the number the earlier the year.

Non Christians often use the term CE in place of AD. CE refers to "Common Era" or "Christian Era." They mark the era preceding the common era as BCE, which can either mean "Before the Common Era," or "Before the Christian Era." Since years are marked from a set point known as 1 (there is no year 0), 3500BC was about 5500 years ago.

There are ten years in a decade, one hundred years in a century, and 1000 years in a millenium. This is considered the twentieth century of the common era. On December 31, 1999, many people will celebrate the coming of the new millenium, but the millenium will not end until December 31, 2000. This is because the calendar we use does not have a year called 0.

tooki
September 25, 2002 - 09:29 pm
Elizabeth N, Many thanks. I will shortly be the proud owner of a slightly used, underlined and scuffed copy of "The Life of Greece." Not bad for about eight bucks, including postage. As long as I'm here: how did everyone know it was Robby's birthday?

There's one other copy at half.com

robert b. iadeluca
September 26, 2002 - 03:27 am
Yeah -- how didya know anyway?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 26, 2002 - 03:34 am
"The use of man to signify all humanity hardly suits the almost matriarchal life of ancient Crete. For the Minoan woman does not put up with any Oriental seclusion, any purdah or harem. There is no sign of her being limited to certain quarters of the house, or to the house. She works there, doubtless, as some women do even today. She weaves clothing and baskets, grinds grain, and bakes bread. But also she labors with men in the fields and the potteries -- she mingles freely with them in the croweds -- she takes the front seat at the theater and the games -- she sweeps through Cretan society with the air of a great lady bored with adoration. And when her nation creates its gods, it is more often in her likeness than in man's.

"Sober students, secretly and forgivably enamored of the mother image in their hearts, bow down before her relics, and marvel at her dominaton."

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
September 26, 2002 - 03:50 am
Jo - Thanks for the BCE post. A while back Robby said that because September 25th was going to be his birthday, the best present he wanted to get was to have many participants coming to discuss Life of Greece with him. If you want something for your birthday all you have to do is ask. I must remember this.

Malryn (Mal)
September 26, 2002 - 06:04 am
"Not only does Crete seem to be a class-based society where there is little class inequality, archaeological evidence suggests that women never ceased playing an important role in the public life of the cities. They served as priestesses, as functionaries and administrators, and participated in all the sports that Cretan males participated in. These were not backyard sports, either, like croquet. The most popular sports in Crete were incredibly violent and dangerous: boxing and bull-jumping. In bull-jumping, as near as we can tell from the representations of it, a bull would charge headlong into a line of jumpers. Each jumper, when the bull was right on top of them, would grab the horns of the bull and vault over the bull in a somersault to land feet first behind the bull. This is not a sport for the squeamish. All the representations of this sport show young women participating as well as men."

For more of this article and illustrations, click HERE

Malryn (Mal)
September 26, 2002 - 06:14 am

Click the link below to see a picture of a fresco at the Palace of Knossos which shows

MINOAN BULL-JUMPING

robert b. iadeluca
September 26, 2002 - 06:17 am
Excellent links, Mal. What we are learning about Crete may help us to realize why Durant wanted us to understand this civilization before going on to Greece.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
September 26, 2002 - 06:22 am

Click the link below to enter an image gallery which shows among other things two children boxing. Boxing was another sport in which Minoan women participated.

ART IN ANCIENT CRETE

Bubble
September 26, 2002 - 06:23 am
The explanation on the bull jumping and the depiction seem at odd, unless I did not understand. Females are usually white and males reddish, But it says the vaulting reddish figure in the middle of the bull is female? To my eye they all are lithe like females! What life and fluidity in those few drawn lines.

Éloïse De Pelteau
September 26, 2002 - 06:58 am
"The other male figure appears to be completely of(f) the ground and riding on the bull’s horns, and the female on the back of the bull has limbs and hair in full motion as she soars over the top of the bull."

Incredible, and today we have become so squeamish. Only Le Cirque du Soleil shows a bit of daring females. It just goes to show that in Crete, women were recognized by men as having Brains. I don't wish for a matriarcal society by far, but more recognition of woman's capacity in all areas of social organization would certainly bring an improvement. Equality of the sexes is only a front in the West, to satisfy women up to a certain point, but society still treats women as merely sex object.

Eloïse

robert b. iadeluca
September 26, 2002 - 07:05 am
I interpret that bull-jumping illustration differently from the rest of you. To me, those three figures represent just one person in a state of motion. First, he grabs the bulls by the horns getting ready to jump. The he is seen vaulting over the bull. Then he has just landed with his arms outstretched for balance. This was the illustrator's way of explaining to us just what takes place.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 26, 2002 - 07:06 am
Eloise:--Does the fact that a woman also jumps over a bull indicate that she has brains?

Robby

Bubble
September 26, 2002 - 08:27 am
If it was the same person, Robby, don't you think the clothing would stay the same? or does the speed of movement makes it appear darker?

robert b. iadeluca
September 26, 2002 - 08:46 am
I guess, Bubble, that is one of those things which will keep us awake at night and which we will never know.

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
September 26, 2002 - 09:05 am
Oh! I just realize that I didn't explain that I read ALL of Mal's link if you really want to know Robby. Women in Crete must have appreciated being equal to men. They seemed to share in the decision making process at home, at work, in government and were not relegated to live behind doors, shielded from sight under heavy vails, wearing head scarves in scorching weather, or generally just serving men.

There is still hope for us after all if civilizations rise, fall and rise again, perhaps this present one will finally take lessons from the Cretans and treat women on an equal basis.

Eloïse

kiwi lady
September 26, 2002 - 10:59 am
There is an exception today. All the top positions in our land are held by women. One of the BBC political commentators touched on this just the other day. Women are also shining here academically. Our largest corporation has a woman CEO.

Carolyn

Bubble
September 26, 2002 - 11:13 am
Will Durant Foundation is the official site for the authentic teachings of Will and Ariel Durant.

http://www.willdurant.com/

OrchidLady
September 26, 2002 - 11:26 am
In Mary Renault's book - dont remember the title but it is a about Athenian youths, men and women being taken to Crete to be sacrificed to the god, she describes them as working in groups of three, teams of three. The book was about the son of the Athenian king, Theseus, I think it was, who voluteered to go over to Crete. He led a group of young boys and girls, and defeated the Minator (sp?) She had an interesting interpretation of the Minotor (doesn't look right, either) According to her, the Queen fell in love with one of the African slaves. She had a child, a boy, who was very dark, and was mentally unbalanced. He was kept hidden away in the palace. I don't remember but I don't think the youths were given to him to kill - I think they had to jump over the bulls in the ring and that's how they died. I wish I had the book now. Louise

Justin
September 26, 2002 - 12:00 pm
The Common Era begins at the beginning of year "one".The term "common" is a secular term used by historians,archeologists, and other scholars to designate the time from year one to the present.

There is also a Christian era, an Islamic era, and a depression era that designate specific time periods. They are not sufficiently precise for scholarly purposes. (The Christian Era may begin with the birth of Christ which is presumed to be just before the death of Herod. Herod died in 4BCE. The Christian Era may begin with the death of Christ which is presumed to have ocurred during the reign of Pontius Pilate in approximately 30CE or it may begin with the preaching of Paul or it may begin with Constantine in 330CE.)

The absence of a zero year should not trouble anyone since zero is a point of origin and not an interval in time or space. It is a point in the real number system which includes positive and negative integers.

Justin
September 26, 2002 - 12:09 pm
Louise; the book you refer is The Bull From The Sea by Mary Renault. In it, Theseus, killed the heir of the House of the Ax, the Minotauros.

CallieK
September 26, 2002 - 12:15 pm
The Bull From The Sea is the sequel to The King Must Die. I havent' read either of them - but got this information from the local library website. Is there a sequel to The Bull From The Sea?

tooki
September 26, 2002 - 01:22 pm
Did I miss a discussion of where these people came from? Does anyone have any theories, facts or suspicions of their origins? Maybe they came sailing from the east on a zephyr. Any ideas?

MaryPage
September 26, 2002 - 01:45 pm
She is known as "the queen of historical fiction set in ancient Greece."

THE KING MUST DIE

THE MASK OF APOLLO

THE BULL FROM THE SEA

FIRE FROM HEAVEN

THE PRAISE SINGER

THE PERSIAN BOY

THE LAST OF THE WINE

FUNERAL GAMES

Malryn (Mal)
September 26, 2002 - 01:48 pm
Click the link below and scroll down a little to read about the Minoans.

THE MINOAN CIVILIZATION

Justin
September 26, 2002 - 02:28 pm
Mary; Don't forget The Charioteer.

Malryn (Mal)
September 26, 2002 - 02:53 pm
Justin, MaryPage is her first name, not Mary.

What does Durant say about the "Reconstruction of the Minoan Civilization" which is known only by relics and antiquities left behind?
"If now we try to restore this buried culture from the relics that remain -- playing Cuvier to the scattered bones of Crete -- let us remember that we are engaging upon a hazardous kind of historic television, in which imagination must supply the living continuity in the gaps of static and fragmentary material artifically moving but long since dead. Crete will remain inwardly unknown until its secretive tablets find their Champollion."

kiwi lady
September 26, 2002 - 03:11 pm
Jane Eastman wrote in her internet page about the Minoans she believed there were human sacrifices as part of the religious rites and maybe even cannabalism! We think of these things as coming out of darkest Africa or New Guinea its hard to imagine a highly developed society like the Minoans indulging in these primitive rites. Although it is believed the Aztecs and Incas also sacrificed human beings to their Gods.

Carolyn

kiwi lady
September 26, 2002 - 03:16 pm
Further to your link Mal- regarding the Minoans Religion- some anthropologists believe their rites were carried out in caves and there were no specific shrines etc. Perhaps the rites were very secretive.

Carolyn

robert b. iadeluca
September 26, 2002 - 05:02 pm
Durant continues:--"Hypothetically we picture Crete as at first an island divided by its mountains among petty jealous clans which live in independent villages under their own chiefs, and fight, after the manner of men, innumerable territorial wars. Then a resolute leader appears who unites several clans into a kingdom, and builds his fortress palace at Cnossus, Phaestus, Tylissus, or some other town.

"The wars become less frequent, more widespread, and more efficient in killing. At last the cities fight for the entire island, and Cnossus wins. The victor organizes a navy, dominates the Aegean, suppresses piracy, exacts tribute, builds palaces, and patronizes the arts, like an early Pericles.

"To make obedience easier the king suborns the gods to his use. His priests explain to the people that he is descended from Velchanos, and has received from this deity the laws that he decrees; and every nine years, if he is competent or generous, they reanoint him with the divine authority.

"To symbolize his power the monarch, anticipating Rome and France, adopts the (double) ax and the fleur-de-lis. To administer the state, he employs (as the litter of tablets suggests) a staff of ministers, bureaucrats, and scribes. He taxes in kind, and stores in giant jars his revenues of grain, oil, and wine. Out of this treasury, in kind, he pays his men.

"From his throne in the palace, or his judgment seat in the rotal villa, he settles in person such litgation as has run the gauntlet of his appointed courts. So great is his reputation as a magistrate that when he dies he becomes in Hades, Homer assures us, the inescapable judge of the dead.

"We call him Minos, but we do not know his name. Probably the word is a title, like Pharaoh or Caesar, and covers a multitude of kings."

So here is a possible start of the Minoan kingdom. From tablets such hypothetical histories are created.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 26, 2002 - 05:06 pm
"It is as difficult to begin a civilization without robbery as it is to maintain it without slaves."

- - - Will Durant

tooki
September 27, 2002 - 08:21 am
Thank you all for the sites. I have visited them, found others myself, and reacquainted myself with the magnificant Minoans, their sculpture, frescos, pottery and history, such as we know it. Calling them "migrants," as one site does, implying as I suspected, their appearance on a zephyr, hardly prepares one for their vigorous culture. I'm ready either to move on or study them in depth. Anybody else? However, before I go: Justin, do you think their preoccupation with ornamental spirals is unique to them, or just part of the general preoccupation with spirals of the prehistoric world?

Éloïse De Pelteau
September 27, 2002 - 09:08 am
Tooki - What an interesting question about spirals in the prehistoric world, I was fascinated by them too.

"It is as difficult to begin a civilization without robbery as it is to maintain it without slaves." - - Will Durant

I am wondering who the slaves are today.

Malryn (Mal)
September 27, 2002 - 09:15 am
We are following Durant's Life of Greece. As in the discussion of Our Oriental Heritage, we move slowly here in order to digest what Durant says. He devotes 20 pages to Crete.

The quote below comes from HERE
"What remains of Minoan culture, is a half understood mystery. The language of the Minoans, known as 'Linear A', has never been deciphered. The lack of a decipherable language has made attempts at a definite description of Minoan life and culture nearly impossible. However, what archeologists have learned about Minoan life comes from the exceptional art, architecture, and tool artifacts of the Minoans.



"Minoan life was ruled by a King and nobles who governed all aspects of Minoan life, including trade, art, and religion. The government of the Minoan was theocratic, and the religion of Minoan was matriarchal and centered around the worship of several goddess and high priestesses. Accordingly the Minoans took part in many ritual acts, including 'bull leaping'. Bull leaping involved mid-air leaping, onto the back of a charging bull.



"Stratification in Minoan Culture consisted mostly between Noble, Citizen, and Slave. However, the stratification of the Minoan appears to have been minimal. Slaves were said to have been treated fairly by their masters and in the religious spectrum the only act slaves could not partake in was bull leaping. Additionally, there were no acts which were restricted from women (that we know of). As seen on many of the beautiful frescoes often times the women worked along side the men. Similarly, archeologists surmise that due to a lack of elaborate burials, (like those seen in Ancient Egypt) the king and nobles were not kept in the highly structured position often kept by state civilizations of its type."

Malryn (Mal)
September 27, 2002 - 09:53 am
From prehistoric times until now people have always been intrigued by the nature which surrounds them and of which they are part. Spirals occur over and over in Nature. What are the lines at the tips of your fingers if not spirals?

Mal

Éloïse De Pelteau
September 27, 2002 - 09:56 am
HERE

You will find artistic water colors of Minoen Statuettes by Pascale Camus Walter that she painted on a trip to Crete a few years ago. Click on a pebble to see a new painting.

Eloïse

robert b. iadeluca
September 27, 2002 - 10:11 am
Click HERE if you think the Ancients might have noticed the spirals in the stars.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 27, 2002 - 10:15 am
Click HERE if you think the spiral has a spiritual meaning.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 27, 2002 - 10:27 am
Durant continues:--"The Iliad speaks of Crete's 'ninety cities,' and the Greeks who conquer them are astonished at their teeming populations. Even today the student stands in awe before the ruined mazes of paved and guttered streets, intersecting lanes, and countless shops or houses crowding about some center of trade or government in all the huddled gregariousness of timid and talkative men.

"It is not only Cnossus that is great, with palaces so vast that imagination perhaps exaggerates the town that must have been the chief source and beneficiary of their wealth. Across the island, on the southern shore, is Phaestus, from whose harbor, Homer tells us, 'the dark-prowed ships are borne to Egypt by the force of the wind and the wave.' The southbound trade of Minoan Crete pours out here, swelled by goods from northern merchants who ship their cargoes overland to avoid a long detour by perilous seas.

"Phaestus becomes a Cretan Piraeus, in love with commerce rather than with art. And yet the palace of its prince is a majestic edifice, reached by a flight of steps forty-five feet wide. Its halls and courts compare with those at Cnossus. Its central court is a paved quadrangle of ten thousand square feet. Its megaron, or reception room, is three thousand square feet in area, larger even than the great Hall of the Double Ax in the northern capital."

We see here cities "in love with overland or sea commerce or with art or government." Any similarity with cities of our era? Can we say that we have cities that seem to specialize in art or government or commerce?

Robby

Lady C
September 27, 2002 - 12:15 pm
Robby and Malryn,

This AM while reading in this volume, I was wishing for a better map than was inside the cover, and here you both supplied beaucoup maps and info to go with them. How exciting! Thank you both so much.

Re the ending of the Minoan civilization: (I may not be quoting this correctly) Durant says a civilization begins stoic and ends epicurean. I have so often wondered if that's happening in the US, where our sights seem to be set on achieving "la dolce vita". Scarey thought.

Claudia

kiwi lady
September 27, 2002 - 12:22 pm
Every nation has its commercial centre- NZ has Auckland, China has Shanghai etc. Our political centre is the Beehive in Wellington- USA has Capitol Hill in Washington. I guess you could say New York is USA centre of commerce - stock exhange etc. Australia has Sydney for commerce and Canberra as its political city. Yes every nation has its specialised cities. It is interesting to note that in England the political AND business centre is London. Our art centre is Wellington where we have our national museum of history and the arts Te Papa.

Carolyn

robert b. iadeluca
September 27, 2002 - 02:40 pm
"The eastern end of the island, in Minoan days, is rich in small towns-- ports like Zakro or Mochlos, villages like Praesus or Pseira, residential quarters like Palaikastro, manufacturing centers like Gournia. The main street in Palaidastro is well paved, well drained, and lined with spacious homes. One of these had twenty-three rooms on the surviving floor. Gournia boasts of avenues paved with gypsum, of homes built with mortarless stone, of a blacksmith's shop with extant forge, of a carpenter shop with a kit of tools, of small factories noisy with metalworking, shoemaking, vase-making, oil refining, or textile industry. The Modern workmen who excavate it, and gather up its tripods, jars, pottery, ovens, lamps, knives, mortars, polishers, hooks, pins, daggers, and swords, marvel at its varied products and equipment, and call it 'he mechanike polis' -- the town of machinery.

"By our standards the minor streets are narrow, mere alleys in the style of a semitropical Orient that fears the sun. The rectangular houses, of wood or brick or stone, are for the most part confined to a single floor. Yet some Middle Minoan plaques exhumed at Cnossus show us homes of two, three, even five stories, with a cubicle attic or turret here and there. On the upper floors, in these pictured houses, are windows with red panes of unknown material.

"Double doors, swinging on posts apparently of cypress wood, open from the ground-floor rooms upon a shaded court. Stairways lead to the upper floors and the roof, where the Cretan sleeps when the nights are very warm. If he spends the evening indoors, he lights his room by burning oil, according to his income, in lamps of clay, steatite, gypsum, marble, or bronze."

Well paved streets (some with gypsum) -- well drained streets -- spacious homes (some built with mortarless stone) -- house of many stories -- blacksmith with forge -- oil refining -- textile industry -- swinging double doors!!! All over 5,000 years ago!!

Robby

kiwi lady
September 27, 2002 - 02:43 pm
Robbie- as I said before the mod cons of this civilization are mind boggling!

Carolyn

Malryn (Mal)
September 27, 2002 - 02:57 pm

Click below to access a page with a picture of Ierapetra and the ruins at Gournia.

IERAPETRA AND GOURNIA

robert b. iadeluca
September 27, 2002 - 03:01 pm
Excellent link, Mal, and wonderful photos of the archeological site. One certainly gets a feeling of the ancient town.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
September 27, 2002 - 03:10 pm
The link below will take you to pictures of ruins at Palaikastro. The links on the left side of the page will access other ancient Minoan cities when you click them.

Edit: - The links at the left of the page take you to some amazing pictures. I just went to some of the sites. Be sure to click the Palace links there. There are some pictures of rather extraordinary masonry when you click some of the city links.

PALAIKASTRO

Malryn (Mal)
September 27, 2002 - 03:59 pm

Oh, dear. I just stumbled on another wonderful site. Click the small images on the page to access pages of pictures and information about the environment, government, people, the economy, etc.

MINOAN CRETE

robert b. iadeluca
September 27, 2002 - 04:04 pm
As I look at those marvelous Links, I am coming to realize how important art is. Imagine if archeologists found no frescoes, no statues, no paintings -- how little we would know about ancient civilizations. I wonder what our current art will say to the archeologists of the distant future.

Robby

OrchidLady
September 27, 2002 - 04:29 pm
"Robby, its difficult to make a statement that could include all of what is called art: painting, theatre, literature, music, etc. So one sentence that might be true of one form of art, might not be true of any other form.

But looking at, and thinking about modern art, painting, works that are supposedly inspired by our life now, and are supposed to represent truths of our life now, I think a viewer in the future would see them and decide that "those people had no center, their lives reflect a whirling centrifuge, separate elements spinning around with no goal or purpose.". Louise

Éloïse De Pelteau
September 27, 2002 - 04:40 pm
Louise, I am wondering what, centuries from now, archeologists excavating in THIS civilization, will find in addition to art, perhaps the state of our economy. Of course we will be leaving artistic treasures of untold proportions, but as you say, will they find purpose in our civilization except the pursuit of greater wealth and power?

Faithr
September 27, 2002 - 05:20 pm
This is a pretty busy discussion. I have caught up with the posts again and have checked out the links saving a couple to go back too and spend more time reading all of the information.The Minoan Culture fascinates me . It truly is the art of the old civilizations that tell us so much about the people.But we probably should define what we mean by art. Perhaps what we define as art was to the Minoans just stuff of daily life. OUr wash basins and bread bowls are not considered art yet in pictures of an archiology collection of art from Pompia (sp) the city exposed under the volcanic eruption they have included the big circular wash tubs and also the big stone bread bowls. When I see a big bowl carved out of wood and oiled and polished till it is so beautiful I think of it as art.Faith

Elizabeth N
September 27, 2002 - 08:27 pm
WOW! Robbie?


Happy Birthday anyway.

tooki
September 27, 2002 - 09:35 pm
Mal - What will those futurists think of the way the slaves were treated. Nice? The way someone surmised the Minoan slaves were? Is slavery somehow ok because owners are "nice." How about the place of women? Will the ghettos appear to be quaint enclaves of diversity?

Justin
September 28, 2002 - 12:14 am
Those who find us will say we liked color and form and non figurative designs in our current stratum. They will also find the works we have collected over 3 milennia stored in our museums and will think we were a highly developed society. However, a couple of bombs may wipe all that out and leave us looking like Minoan cities. The Minoan excavations look to me a little like Hiroshima the day after.

robert b. iadeluca
September 28, 2002 - 02:57 am
I am impressed by the imaginative thinking of all our participants here. Imagination is a powerful mental tool. Eons ago when I was a Scout Executive with the Boy Scouts of America, I suggested the formation of a new Merit Badge called Imagination. Nothing came of it however.

Your comments tell me that your thoughts are not only geared toward the past and "how it might have been" but also to the future and "how it might be." I believe that Dr. Durant would have been most proud of the broad-based spectrum of this discussion and the participants who make it a "living memorial" to the Progress of Mankind.

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
September 28, 2002 - 03:39 am
Mal - "They might think we were either terribly dirty or obsessively clean with all the big bathrooms, sometimes six in a four bedroom house, jacuzzis, hot tubs and swimming pools around."

Louise - "Perhaps what we define as art was to the Minoans just stuff of daily life. OUr wash basins and bread bowls"

Tookie - "Is slavery somehow ok because owners are "nice?""

Justin - "However, a couple of bombs may wipe all that out and leave us looking like Minoan cities."

Robby - ""living memorial" to the Progress of Mankind."

Eloïse - Yes.

Éloïse De Pelteau
September 28, 2002 - 07:38 am
Mal - "Eloise, did the other civilizations we've read about have other purposes stimulating them beyond "wealth and power"?

No I don't think so.

OrchidLady
September 28, 2002 - 08:03 am
ELOISE, I think you're right. Basically, mankind, all of it, at all times, as a whole, is interested in power and money (or wealth in whatever their society considers wealth). Second to these is pleasure, sexual pleasure primarily.

The function of religion, all religions, is to try to exert control over the striving for wealth and power. The religion can use a variety of tools, simple basic ethical tools like the Ten Commandments, or more involved worship structures with obligations their members had to follow. And then a structure of rules might develop in the religion which would hamper man's natural instincts. For example, in the Middle Ages, the Church in various places tried to enforce some rules governing fighting. They knew the local lord was greedy to get more land/serfs, etc. But the local bishops made rules that there could be no fighting on Friday, or on Sunday. Also there was a long list of feast days when it was forbidden to do battle.

Religion can't fully change man, and there can be abuses in the religious organization. But from what I have learned, even with excesses in the religious organization, it has to go a LONG, LONG, LONG WAY, before it even approaches the savagery, and cruelty of the secular society.

These didn't stop men, of course, nothing stops human greed except death. But at times, and at places they put a crimp in it. Louise

OrchidLady
September 28, 2002 - 12:33 pm
MAL, you have a point - I'll watch it. Mea culpa. Louise

kiwi lady
September 28, 2002 - 12:58 pm
I think every human has to have some sort of code to live by. The ten commandments are the basis of our society here and what our law is based on. However as society becomes more secular the code becomes more confused. Wonder if the kids in Minoan schools- they must have had some sort of schooling system- murdered each other or assaulted their teachers? What was the social code of behaviour in their society.

One of the papers I read said the Cretan civilization may have been destroyed by Volcanic activity - a lot of ash found amongst the relics.

Carolyn

robert b. iadeluca
September 28, 2002 - 01:10 pm
Everyone's opinion here is equal.

Robby

3kings
September 28, 2002 - 01:28 pm
That is interesting about art based on forms in nature. The New Zealand Maori have a strong spiral form in their carvings and paintings, taken I suspect from sea shells and an unfolding fern frond. Strangely, their cousins in the Pacific Islands do not have anywhere near such a strong spiral form in their art. And yet, the spiral sea-shell form must have figured largely in Islanders everyday lives...-- Trevor

Bubble
September 28, 2002 - 01:35 pm
Carolyn, why on earth are you speculating that Minoan kids would assault their teachers or each other? All societies have some code of conduct.



The commandments are the one for you, the African tribes had their tribal rules before the missionaries destroyed that and I can tell you that everywhere there is a very big taboo about killing or hurting people of your clan. As you know, even in the Bible, it was Ok to kill the enemies and their families.

Faithr
September 28, 2002 - 02:04 pm
That is one thing it is very hard for archyologists and anthropologists to determine in dead civilizations...the RULES or as sometimes expressed THE TABOO'S of that people. It is guess time and imagination time when it comes to this subject. Much can be infered by the art and craft of a people regarding their civilization and often I believe there is much that comes from the imagination of the scientists working on the project.They tell us whole stories about the religion of those long gone peoples without a lot to back it up except the pictographs and art objects. To bad we have no one who has decyphered the symbol writing in Ancient Crete like they have now done in Puru with the Mayan and even older languages. fr

robert b. iadeluca
September 28, 2002 - 02:53 pm
"We know a trifle or two about the games he plays. At home he likes a form of chess, for he has bequeathed to us, in the ruins of the Cnossus palace, a magnificent gaming board with frame of ivory, squares of silver and gold, and a border of seventy-two daisies in precious metal and stone.

"In the fields he takes with zest and audacity to the chase, guided by half-wild cats and slender thoroughbred hounds. In the towns he patronizes pugilists.

"However, time and again the Cretan pictures the stages of the lusty sport of charging bulls -- the daring hunter capturing the bull by jumping astride its neck as it laps up water from a pool -- the professonal tamer twisting the animal's head until it learns some measure of tolerance for the acrobat's annoying tricks -- the skilled performer, slim and agile, meeting the bull in the arena, grasping its horns, leaping into the air, somersaulting over its back, and landing feet first on the ground in the arms of a female companion who lends her grace to the scene.

"Even in Minoan Crete this is already an ancient art. A clay cylinder from Cappadocia, ascribed to 1400 B.C. shows a bull-grappling sport as vigorous and dangerous as in these frescoes. For a moment our oversimplifying intellects catch a glimpse of the contradictory complexity of man as we perceive that this game of blood-lust and courage, still popular today, is as old as civilization."

Robby

kiwi lady
September 28, 2002 - 03:44 pm
Bubble-here in our society every day teachers are getting assaulted and in other countries kids are murdering each other at school that is what I am getting at. Did this happen in Minoa in their learning institutions and if not what stopped them from doing it. Of course I know that all through history people have killed their enemies but its only in this generation here in NZ since our society began that there is a huge problem with kids in school and violence. Was there more respect for elders in early civilizations?

Carolyn

robert b. iadeluca
September 28, 2002 - 03:59 pm
Carolyn, you say:--"Its only in this generation here in NZ since our society began that there is a huge problem with kids in school and violence."

Would you please expand on what you mean when you say "since our society began?" What society are you referring to and when did it begin?

Robby

Marvelle
September 28, 2002 - 04:25 pm
As a late age (non-traditional) college student, I had a Spanish teacher who was taken to a bullfight as a child. He was not an aficionado but he passed on the explanation that his father gave him:

The bullfight is about life and death and the matador symbolizes the nation as he faces death. The people experience his grace or clumsiness, his bravery or fear, his triumph or defeat. The matador's traje de luces (suit of lights) is tight and feminine as are the colors and the ballet shoes he wears. The matador is the male, the tightly fitted suit the female and joined together in the corredor they represent fertility and life. The dark bull is the possibility of death.

I wonder if this has some of the meaning of the original from Crete?

Here is more about Modern Bullfights

Note the Christian aspects of the bullfight including the Veronica.

Marvelle

I had to correct two spelling errors and there are probably more but the link at least is now clickable.

kiwi lady
September 28, 2002 - 04:50 pm
Since we were deemed to be a secular society which was first spoken of about 15 years ago. This is a new society.

Carolyn

Marvelle
September 28, 2002 - 04:51 pm
My personal, added interpretation of the Spanish bullfight is that the bull represents fierce power and strength; and that both bull and matador face death together.

Marvelle

robert b. iadeluca
September 28, 2002 - 05:53 pm
A very very enlightening link about bullfights, Marvelle. As indicated, most North Americans (including myself) know practically nothing about this "sport."

Robby

Marvelle
September 28, 2002 - 06:54 pm
Well, my teacher wasn't a fan of bullfighting despite being Spanish. I was interested in its progression from Crete to Spain as well as other countries. We can only speculate on the meaning of the bull sport in ancient Crete.

Marvelle

OrchidLady
September 28, 2002 - 07:22 pm
I am impressed by the ritual, the bravery, the precision of the bullfighter. But I have very little respect for him. To waste that courage and skill just to kill a large animal with a sword. Such a lot risked for such an unimportant gain.

I respect solders who move forward in battle, as they did at Normandy, knowing there was a good chance they would be killed. I respect firemen and policemen who rescue people in danger, aware they also are in risk of being hurt, and possibly killed. Many, many brave men and women risk their lives to help others. The doctors who recently spent 13 plus hours to separate cojoined twins, knowing they had a good chance of losing at least one of the twins, and working in teams, steadily, controlling their nerves, focusing on what had to be done, intent on their work, working under strain for so many hours. They are heros, and deserving of respect.

A man who risks his life just to kill an animal - in an elegant manner, of course - gets no respect from me. Louise

kiwi lady
September 28, 2002 - 07:25 pm
I accept than animals are killed for food but I can never accept an animal being goaded and then killed for sport.

Carolyn

Marvelle
September 28, 2002 - 07:46 pm
My teacher would agree with you. However, I see similarities between the game in Crete and modern bullfighting.

Marvelle

Justin
September 28, 2002 - 08:53 pm
The abstract spiral is a symbol that appears in many civilizations. In some civilizations we know the symbol's meaning and in others we do not. It appears on Celtic and on Scandinavian artifacts. The book of Kells includes many examples of such curvilinear forms. But symbol dictionaries have ignore the spiral.

Recent archeological work on Mayan spirals has established their function as characters. An alphabet has been identified and new Mayan history is being disclosed as a result.

There are abstract spirals on Minoan artifacts. Some historians think they were imported from Egypt, probably during the 12th dynasty. The question of meaning is an interesting one. A painted sarcophagus from Hagia Triada, dated about 1400 BCE,displays abstract spirals on an altar used for bull sacrifice. If bull sacrifice is part of a religious ceremony, perhaps the spirals on the altar are connected with a religion. Spirals may also be seen on the walls of the Queen's Chamber at Knossos. This latter connection could also be religious but more likely, in this setting, the spiral is decorative.

There are a number of meanders in the Minoan recoveries. Many have vine and plant motifs. However, some designs are simply curvilinear, and of these, a few reflect the shape of bull's horns. Here again, we could be observing religious symbolism.

I found no articles in the Art Index addressing the character of spirals as religious or secular.

Justin
September 28, 2002 - 09:13 pm
Faith: You may be surprised to learn that one of the leading artists of the post WWl period and a leading exhibtor in the 1913 Armory Show which brought the Moderns to America, exhibits urinals and wash basins as part of his life work. These pieces are called "Found Art".They serve to define art as whatever the artist calls art. Who is this daring young man? His name is Marcel Duchamp and his work is called "Dada".

tooki
September 28, 2002 - 09:17 pm
The spiral face tatoos of the old Maories is fascinating. NZers: Is it the case that they are making a comeback among the younger Maories? Spirals are multi tongued, so to speak, an example being spiral galaxies. Can sprials be considered mazes? Ends of spirals can just end, while the spiral itself seemingly could be infinite. So the maze wherein at the heart of lies the Minotaur might be construed of as a symbol of the universe. And if the Minotaur is half man and half bull, the bull jumping ceremony might be construed as an attempt to become one with the bull, thus securing the power to defeat the maze. This is all too exciting. I must go now and put my fevered brow down on my satin pillow, perchance to dream.

Bubble
September 29, 2002 - 12:54 am
I have been speculating about the bull fighting meaning, after reading Marvelle's and Justin's explanations. I remembered the Bull-God in Pharaon's time, I remembered Jacob wrestling with the Angel of God. Could it be that long ago the vaulting over the bull had the meaning of a challenge to the gods? Or of proving one's worth to the gods?

robert b. iadeluca
September 29, 2002 - 03:35 am
Meanings. Meanings. The meaning of the spiral. The meaning of the bullfight. The meaning of the bull itself. The meaning of killing it. The meaning of the maze.

The very meaning of our existence. Tooki, did you dream?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 29, 2002 - 04:04 am
"The Cretan's religion has a thoroughly human mixture of fetishm and superstition, idealism and reverence. He worships mountains, caves, stones, trees and pillars, sun and moon, goats and snakes, doves and bulls -- hardly anything escapes his theology. He conceives the air as filled with spirits genial or devilish, and hands down to Greece a sylvan-ethereal population of dryads, sileni, and nymphs. He does not directly adore the phallic emblem, but he venerates with awe the generative vitality of the bull and the snake.

"Since his death rate is high, he pays devout homage to fertility. When he rises to the notion of a human divinity, he pictures a mother goddess with generous mammae and sublime flanks, with reptiles creeping up around her arms and breasts, coiled in her hair, or rearing themselves proudly from her head. He sees in her the basic fact of nature -- that man's greaatest enemy, death, is overcome by woman's mysterious power, reproduction, and he identifies this power with deity.

"The mother goddess represents for him the source of all life, in plants and animals as well as in men. If he surrounds her image with fauna and flora, it is because these exist through her cretive fertility, and therefore serve as her symbols and her emanations. Occasionally she appears holding in her arms her divine child, Velchanos, whom she has borne in a mountain cave.

"Contemplating this ancient image, we see through it Isis and Horus, Ishtar and Tammuz, Cybele and Attis, Aphrodite and Adonis, and feel the unity of prehistoric culture, and the continuity of religious ideas and symbols, in the Mediterranean world."

Some of us here may recognize deity that were mentioned in Our Oriental Heritage and we see the connection between Crete and the Orient. Perhaps we can then see why Durant chose to write Life of Greece immediately after writing Our Oriental Heritage.

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
September 29, 2002 - 04:31 am
The bull charges into the arena, nostrils flaring and fuming ready to gore and kill anything standing in his way, the toreador stands still, waiting, his back arched, slightly moving the red cape he is holding, in his other hand is the sword that he will plunge into the soft spot behind the head of the bull but not before the bull has been completely subdued and the crowd is ready for the kill. The electricity fills the air. Who will die first, the man, or the animal? The bull charges ahead aiming straight at the red cape, passes inches away from the stomach of the bullfighter, the bull and the bullfighter perform a swerving dance as they are trying to kill each other. The crowd cheers in frantic excitement as the bull falls dead from his wounds.

Since antiquity, this cruel sport is still popular in Spain unfortunately.

Eloïse

Bubble
September 29, 2002 - 04:50 am
Since antiquity, courting death in sport is popular unfortunately. The headiness received from an adrenaline kick.

robert b. iadeluca
September 29, 2002 - 05:00 am
Eloise:--You just came back from being in Spain for six weeks. Any comments about bull fighting while you were there?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 29, 2002 - 05:01 am
Bubble:--The human is afraid of death but courts it. Interesting.

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
September 29, 2002 - 05:31 am
Robby - On the one hand the Spaniards are extremely civilized. Spain has an obviously refined culture in art, music, literature and manners. They have deep religious beliefs that was evident in their week long celebration of the Christos when I was there, with processions in the street of hundreds of religious groups, priests congregations venerating Mary's statue, touching it as it passes by everyone praying fervently.

Yet, these same people during that same week, went to the bullfight and these same people cheered and applauded as the bullfighter killed the bull in the arena. I can only surmise that the passion it arouses comes from the same inner root.

Bullfights and religion express itself in the same passionate way for the Spaniards.

Eloïse

robert b. iadeluca
September 29, 2002 - 06:16 am
Bullfights and religion "in the same breath." Interesting.

Robby

Faithr
September 29, 2002 - 10:31 am
I comment on the Bulls and the Bears. Bears as old as neandertals where they set up alters in holes in rock faces with bear skeletons and flowers, and bulls go back decorating the walls of the "churchs" at Hathor (Holy Mother Cow! was the first oath I learned at six years old)in the original idea of a church. As religious symbols in ancient worlds and today as symbols in the stock market....hmmmmmmm

Justin I have long admired pluming fixtures. My husband tried hard to keep me out of pluming sectin of hardware stores as I loved the shapes and the chrome, copper, etc. of the fittings. They all looked like art to me.Along with wooden bowls and butter churns. Perhaps I am a Dadist after all. Faith

Bubble
September 29, 2002 - 10:47 am
The tribe of the cave bear, (Auel), Faith?

robert b. iadeluca
September 29, 2002 - 11:01 am
For decades I have used the phrase Holy Cow! -- never once thinking of a possible religious meaning. But then again, I say Holy Smoke! What might that mean?

Robby

Bubble
September 29, 2002 - 11:19 am
Spirals of smoke of course.

You are surrounded by spirituality!

kiwi lady
September 29, 2002 - 01:44 pm
I was thinking about spirals. Maybe they represent the circle of life. Birth- Death-birth of a new generation then on and on and on and on ad infinitum.

Carolyn

Malryn (Mal)
September 29, 2002 - 02:41 pm

In 1997 Hewlett Packard had a symposium and exhibition called "Plants through time" for Earth Day. Botanists who helped with this exhibit used lichen as the first examples of plants in time. Plants which had evolved through time were placed on pillars which had spirals on them.
"Each of the pillars are molded with a rising spiral pattern. This stands for the spiral DNA molecule which is common to all life on Earth. The DNA Spiral transforms and supports the environment making it suitable for life."
Now, unless I'm terribly mistaken Ancient Cretes knew nothing about DNA, but they were surrounded with spirals in nature -- shells in the ocean, constellations in the night sky, on plants, on their fingertips. Ancient Cretes like people in so many other early civilizations we read about in Our Oriental Heritage made gods of nearly everything they saw in nature. I would suspect that if we were did not have the knowledge we have today, we'd find answers through gods in nature today. Examination of what's in nature to find answers to questions about life is, as they say, as old as the hills.

Don't the Hindus in India worship "Holy Cows"? They, too, are a symbol of life and fertility. The Snake Goddess in Ancient Crete is a fertility figure, a symbol of life. Fear of death has been around since the first human beings appeared on this earth. The opposite of death is life, so why not worship life and things which symbolize it and by doing so perhaps prolong it? Don't many religions do this with their preoccupation with life after death?

Bulls represent virility and strength. Conquer the bull, and you prove you have more strength and virility than the bull. Religion is for the spirit. Bulls might represent the body. Aren't human beings a combination of both?

Symbols can be made of anything. Science is full of symbols. So is religion. So are street signs, McDonald's arches, etc., etc., etc. It wouldn't surprise me someday if the computer became a symbol of knowledge. After all, it contains all the knowledge of the world, doesn't it?

Mal

Justin
September 29, 2002 - 02:58 pm
Bull leaping and bull sacrifice to appease the earthquake gods are one thing but human sacrifice for the same reason is quite another. Just outside the village of Arkhanes at a site called Anemospilia archeologists have unearthed a temple housing the bodies of priest, victim and assistant who were stopped by earthquate at the moment of sacrifice. There doesn't seem to be any question that a human sacrifice was in progress. National Geographic in 1981 reports on the find. The site overlooks the Palace at Knossos.

The story of Iphigenia and Agamemnon by Aeschylus tells of human sacrifice in myth. I think that's the way modern Greeks viewed the story but now that evidence of human sacrifice has been unearthed we must recognize a dark side in these Minoans.

Malryn (Mal)
September 29, 2002 - 03:29 pm

The link below takes you pictures of the ruins of the temple at Anemospilia. Scroll down a little and click the picture on the right to see the room where the sacrifices were made.

ANEMOSPILIA

robert b. iadeluca
September 29, 2002 - 04:17 pm
"The Cretan Zeus, as the Greeks call Velchanos, grows in importance. He becomes the personification of the fertilizing rain, of the moisture that in this religion, as in the philosophy of Thales, underlies all things. He dies, and his sepulcher is shown from generation to generation on Mr. Iouktas, where the majestic profile of his face can still be seen by the imaginative traveler. He rises from the grave as a symbol of reviving vegetation, and the Kouretes priests celebrate with dances and clashing shields his glorious resurrection.

"Sometimes, as a god of fertility, he is conceived as incarnate in the sacred bull. It is as a bull that he mates in Cretan myth with Minos' wife, Pasiphae, and begets by her the monstrous Minos-bull, or Minotaur.

"To appease these deities, the Cretan uses a lavish rite of symbol and ceremony, administered usually by women priests, sometimes by officials of the state. To ward off demons he burns incense. To arouse a negligent divinity he sounds the conch, plays the flute or the lyre, and sings, in chorus, hymns of adoration. To promote the growth of orchards and the fields, he waters trees and plants in solemn ritual. Or his priestesses in nude frenzy shake down the ripe burden of the trees. Or his women in festal procession carry fruits and flowers as hints and tribute to the goddess, who is borne in state in a palanquin."

Again, as was seen in some of the Oriental civilizations, the overriding power of the female.

Robby

Justin
September 29, 2002 - 07:47 pm
We have seen several societies born in stoicism, die in epicureanism.Sumeria, Babylonia, Egypt, all come mind as examples of decline at the complacent top of their capability. The evidence at Minoa seems to point a more violent end.But attack could have been succesful because they were complacent. Few defensive structures have been found. One posible cause for their demise is the end of trade with Egypt and Afica. That trade could have ended because the export power of trading partners dried up. The time period, around 1200, would be that of Akhnaton who let the enemy make in roads and whose reign ended in decline for Egypt and perhaps for Minoa as well.

Bubble
September 30, 2002 - 01:05 am
How could I have forgotten the double spiral of DNA. Thanks Mal for that reminder.



Conquer the bull, and you prove you have more strength and virility than the bull.
The Africans in Kenya, the Masaii I think, do just that when they have to catch and kill a lion with their bare hands or what they can manufacture alone, as an adulthood rite. The pelt of that lion will be their proudest possession.



To arouse a negligent divinity he sounds the conch
It makes me think of the sounding of the Ram Horn, the Shofar, during the Jewish religious services of our main Holy Days.

robert b. iadeluca
September 30, 2002 - 03:47 am
Isn't "negligent divinity" an oxymoron?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 30, 2002 - 05:10 am
"The Cretan has apparently no temple, but raises altars in the palace court, in sacred groves or grottoes, and on mountaintops. He adorns these sanctuaries with tables of libation and sacrifice, a medley of idols, and'horns of consecration' perhaps representative of the sacred bull.

"He is profuse with holy symbols, which he seems to worship along with the gods whom they signify -- first the shield, presumably as the emblem of his goddess in her warrior form -- then the cross, in both its Greek and its Roman shapes -- and as the swastika, cut upon the forehead of a bull or the thigh of a goddess, or carved upon seals, or raised in marble in the palace of the king -- above all, the double ax, as an instrument of sacrifice magically enriched with the virtue of the blood tht it sheds, or as a holy weapon unerringly guided by the god, or even as a sign of Zeus the Thunderer cleaving the sky with his bolts."

Anyone here see signs of a civilization which influences the later Greek civilization?

Robby

MaryPage
September 30, 2002 - 06:55 am
In reaching through a plethora of books back into history as far as our scientific and historic professionals have been able to take us, it is a fascination to find the many threads of belief and follow their metamorphosis. The bull as a spiritual representation of death is one example. The identification of snakes with female sexuality is another.

CAROLYN, the increase in violence in our society, observable in our school age children, was predicted way back in, wasn't it the thirties?, when the famous study was made of a rat civilization. Mayhem broke out when there was overpopulation, which is what we are experiencing in our times. There was peace as long as there was food enough and space enough for each individual.

Tonight and tomorrow night on The History Channel at 9:00 p.m. Eastern Time there will be a 2 hour show (totaling 4 hours over the 2 nights) about the rise and fall of the Spartan civilization in Ancient Greece.

Éloïse De Pelteau
September 30, 2002 - 02:00 pm
About money,

ANCIENT COINS

Eloïse

Justin
September 30, 2002 - 02:43 pm
No, Robby, a negligent divinity, is the common garden variety, divinity. They never answer prayers nor speak for themselves for fear of exposing their lack of substance. Thus they are always negligent.

Justin
September 30, 2002 - 02:57 pm
Yes, the Spartan show is on tonight. It should be worthwhile.

I think some of the religious things will reappear in Greece beginning in the about the seventh century. The great mythology about Zeus and the family of gods who live on a mountain top may grow out of the tendency for Cretans to place altars on mountain tops. Durant may think Cretans did not build temples but that's because his work was completed in the late thirties. Archeologists have since uncovered temples of bull sacrifice and even human sacrifice. These things were done under cover.

Valchano probably evolves into Zeus and the ladies who deal with the gods probably evolve into the virgins who read animal signs at Delphi and perhaps later become the vestal virgins.

The interplay between Phaestas, minos' wife, and the gods, creating the minatour, is precursor to the way the gods of Olympus intervene in the lives of warriors and others in later Greek Mythology. Odysseus spent ten years in interplay with the gods before he was allowed to return to Ithaca. Similarly, Iphegenia lost her life to the interference of the gods in human activity.

North Star
September 30, 2002 - 04:07 pm
The spiral could come from something as simple as hand building clay pots. You make a coil of clay and spiral it around the base, then smooth it with your fingers or hands. Some modern coil built pots . While pottery wheels are ancient, hand built pots were common in many cultures both in ancient times in the Middle East and Europe and in the new world.

robert b. iadeluca
September 30, 2002 - 05:34 pm
"The Cretan offers a modest care and worship to his dead. He buries them in clay coffins or massive jars, for if they are unburied, they may return. To keep them content below the ground, he deposits with them modest portions of food, articles for their toilette, and clay figurines of women to tend or console them through all eternity.

"Sometimes, with the sly economy of an incipient skeptic, he substitutes clay animals in the grave in place of actual food. If he buries a king or a noble or a rich trader, he surrenders to the corpse a part of the precious plate or jewelry that it once possessed. With touching sympathy he buries a set of chess with a good player, a clay orchestra with a musician, a boat with one who loved the sea.

"Periodically he returns to the grave to offer a sustaining sacrifice of food to the dead. He hopes that in some secret Elysium, or Islands of the Blest, the just god Rhadamanthus, son of Zeus Velchanos, will receive the purified soul, and give it the happiness and the peace that slip so elisively through the fingers in this earthly quest."

Any reminders here of what we read in Our Oriental Heritage?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
September 30, 2002 - 06:09 pm
Look at all the things they put in the pyramid tombs in Ancient Egypt!

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
September 30, 2002 - 06:23 pm
Notice in THIS MAP how close Crete is to Egypt. Sort of a "bridge" between Egypt (Near East) and Greece (Europe.)

robert b. iadeluca
October 1, 2002 - 12:18 pm
Durant continues with Culture (see GREEN quotes above):--"When, after the Dorian invasion, the Cretan uses the Greek alphabet, it is for a speech completely alien to what we know as Greek, and more akin in sound to the Egyptian, Cypriote, Hittite, and Anatolian dialects of the Near East. In the earliest age he confines himself to hieroglyphics. About 1800 B.C. he begins to shorten these into a linear script of some ninety syllable signs. Two centuries later he contrives another script, whose characters often resemble those of the Phoenician alpahbet.

"Perhaps it is from him, as well as from the Egyptians and the Semites, that the Phoenicians gather together those letters they will scatter throughout the Mediterranean to become the unassuming, omnipresent instrument of Western civilization. Even the common Cretan composes, and like some privy councilor, leaves on the walls of Hagia Triada the passing inspiration of his muse.

"At Phaestus we find a kind of prehistoric printing. The hieroglyphs of a great disk unearthed there from Middle Minoan III strata are impressed upon the clay by stamps, one for each pictograph. But here, to add to our befuddlement, the characters are apparently not Cretan but foreign. Perhaps the disk is an importation from the East."

Using the Greek alphabet but speaking in a sound completely alien to Greek? Reminds me of Durant's comments in Our Oriental Heritage where the Japanese used the Chinese pictographs but spoke in a completely alien language. The Cretans first used hieroglyphs, then a linear script, then a script similar to the Phoenician alphabet. Increasingly I am beginning to understand why Durant felt it was necessary for us to understand the Cretan civilization before moving on to Greece. It was indeed a bridge, not only geographically, but linguistically and perhaps culturally.

Robby

Bubble
October 1, 2002 - 12:34 pm
And still there is so much unknown about them apparently?



I am getting the book on Greece next week. I will also have more time to devote to reading and thinking.



Another language using the same alphabet... this would be like Yiddish which is written in Hebrew letters. I can read it but not understand it!

robert b. iadeluca
October 1, 2002 - 12:37 pm
That is so good that you will be having the volume next week! Tell me, Bubble, do you ever pause to remind yourself that you don't live that far from Crete? At least, compared to most of us.

Robby

Bubble
October 1, 2002 - 02:14 pm
It is as far for me as it is for you: the distance of a flight! lol



But I have been to Greece and that gives me maybe the "feel" of the place. Greece has such a special light I have not experience anywhere else, more luminous, clear maybe. But not in Athens where the pollution is terrible. Bubble

Lady C
October 1, 2002 - 02:42 pm
I am totally fascinated by spirals and a few of you seem to be too. So I went to Marija Gimbutas' beautiful book "The Language of the Goddess" which has hundreds of photographs of artifacts with well-researched text, and found that some of the earliest spirals are carbon-dated at 5500-5000 BC. Many were found in the Balkans and Romania, often associated with snakes both coiled and extended. But they have been found in Ancient Ireland and other areas in Europe as well. There was a photo of a Minoan priestess with spirals on her shoulders and extended snakes in her skirt and Gimbutas says that this was related to a snake cult which has existed in many forms up to the present. Also she interprets it as an expression of regenerative energy, because the snake sheds his skin and is renewed, and phallic symbolism is obvious. As an aside: my daughter has used it for years as her logo in her business, Thumprint Communications. Jung says in "Symbols and Architypes" that archetypal symbols arise from the collective unconscious when they are universal, although he doesn't refer specifically to the spiral. But it does seem to be universal, doesn't it? Robby, you can probably discuss this much better than I am doing. Incidentally, in Joseph Campbell's "Masks of God" the Occidental volume, there is a picture of a tablet of Zeus in snake form being worshipped. Lots more about snakes in myth in just about every book I've skimmed in the last couple of days.

Claudia

robert b. iadeluca
October 1, 2002 - 03:04 pm
Claudia, I wouldn't dare to try to discuss it as well as you did. Keep pouring it on us!

I have a few Campbell books home that I might get to reading one of these years.

Robby

MaryPage
October 1, 2002 - 03:30 pm
I watched 2 hours of ancient Greek history last night and found it excellent.

Two more hours tonight. Pure Joy!

Justin
October 1, 2002 - 03:51 pm
The civilization we are examining, Minoan, existed in the same time period as the Sumerian. The Minoans were here before Akhad succeeded the Sumerians. Seals were found at Knossos from the Hammurabi period indicating some trading interaction here. Early Egyptian things were found at Hagia Triada and Minoan artifacts were found in Egypt. These people were not only in touch with the known world at that time but carried pieces of the world home and distributed their own goods to foreign lands. Here we are in book two of Durant and he plunges us back in time to the earliest civilization we have examined- Sumeria. We are prior in time to the period of Homer by as much as two millennia.

Clearly, what we saw in Our Oriental Heritage, is a part of what we see in Crete. The cultural and civilizing influences of the east came to crete in this early period and perhaps, it is that influence which the Greeks of a later age bring to the western world.

Justin
October 1, 2002 - 04:14 pm
Mary Page: The period we were looking at last night occurred in 499BCE, twenty five hundred years after the Minoans. We look back now to Marathon and say "ancient" but the difference in time is exactly the same. The Greeks at Marathon could look back to the Minoans and say "ancient", for the time periods are the same.

robert b. iadeluca
October 1, 2002 - 04:24 pm
So Volume I and Volume II are, in a sense, overlapping -- which is good from the point of view of those of us who read Our Oriental Heritage. There is no strict division. While we were studying Oriental civilizations there existed in the same time period what, for want of a better term, I will call Semi-Oriental civilizations (Crete?) gradually progressing toward Occidental civilizations. These are over-simplified unscientific terms which help me, at least, to understand the gradual westward migration.

Robby

Justin
October 1, 2002 - 04:31 pm
There were non Greek speaking settlements on the mainland. They were Bronze Age people and probably similar to the Minoans. That culture is known as Helladic. These people were thriving 2000 years before Homer. It is surprising to me that Durant was able to uncover as much as he did about this civlization during the nineteen thirties. Arthur Evans did not publish his work until 1936. Of course, knowledge of the project was about in some depth during the twenties. In six years in the early part of the century Evans had exposed a great deal of the palace at Knossos. The Americans worked on Gournius much later.

Justin
October 1, 2002 - 04:34 pm
I am looking and I think I am going to find Spiral decoration in Egypt. Stay tuned. I think it must be prior to the Hyksos to be relevant.

Malryn (Mal)
October 1, 2002 - 05:17 pm

What about the Caduceus? HERE you will find an article and illustration that suggests the spiraled Greek Caduceus actually originated in Ancient Babylonia. In my search for "Caduceus" I accessed some "male only" sites which had wonderful illustrations of ancient Caduceus (make that plural, somebody), which were certainly Phallic in nature. I cannot link these sites here because they are too....let's say specific. The Caduceus is another fertility symbol?

Mal

Jo Walker
October 1, 2002 - 05:24 pm
Just as I was beginning to like these Cretan people with their lithe bodies, fashionable costumes, pretty dances and pleasure-loving ways, I was brought up short by Justin's post and Mal's link showing evidence of a blood-thirsty god being appeased. From the remains left at the scene there is apparently little doubt that a human was being sacrificed when the earthquake brought the walls down. Those photos of the little rooms complete with stone altar were all too real-looking. None of the civilizations we've examined so far are without their dark side, it seems.

robert b. iadeluca
October 1, 2002 - 05:30 pm
Mal:--You mean you have found something too "adult" for Senior Netters?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
October 1, 2002 - 05:45 pm
Uh huh.

; )

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
October 1, 2002 - 05:58 pm
"Though the Cretan's literature is a sealed book to us, we may at least contemplate the ruins of his theaters. At Phaestus, about 2000, he builds ten tiers of stone seats, running some eighty feet along a wall overlooking a flagged court. At Cnossus he raises, again in stone, eighteen tiers thirty-three feet long, and, at right angles to them, six tiers from eighteen to fifty feet in length. These court theaters, seating four or five hundred persons, are the most ancient playhouses known to us -- older by fifteen hundred years than the Theater of Dionysus.

"We do not know what took place on those stages. Frescoes picture audiences viewing a spectacle, but we cannot tell what it is that they see. Very likely it is some combination of music and dance. A painting from Cnossus preserves a group of aristocratic ladies, surrounded by their gallants, watching a dance by gaily petticoated girls in an olive grove -- another represents a Dancing Woman with flying tresses and extended arms -- others show us rustic folk dances, or the wild dance of priests, priestesses, and worshipers before an idol or a sacred tree.

"Homer describes the 'dancing floor which once, in broad Cnossus, Daedalus made for Ariadne of the lovely hair. There youths and seductive maidens join hands in the dance...and a divine bard sets the time to the sound of the syre.' The seven-stringed lyre, ascribed by the Greeks to the inventiveness of Terpander, is represented on a sarcophagus at Hagia Triada a thousand years before Terpander's birth. There, too, is the double flute, with two pipes, eight holes, and fourteen notes, precisely as in classical Greece. Carved on a gem, a woman blows a trumpet made from an enormous conch, and on a vase we see the sistrum beating time for the dancers' feet."

Can you all see this in your mind's eye?

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
October 1, 2002 - 06:26 pm
I don't remember if we saw the palace of Cnossos before, but

HERE it is again. I can imagine what Homer is describing.

tooki
October 1, 2002 - 09:39 pm
According to the bibliography in "Mysteries of the Snake Goddess," by Kenneth Lapatin (New York; Houghton Mifflin, 2002), Evans began publishing "The Palace of Minos," in 1921,concluding in 1935. He began "broadcasting" information in 1900, mostly in the "Annual of the British School at Athens." This is in addition to the popular press accounts. Durant would have ample information, somewhat embellished, it appears. The Lapatin book seems so far to be a debunker. (P.S. Help! How do I underline book titles here?)

Bubble
October 2, 2002 - 12:49 am
Caduceus, caducei in plural Just like in lupus, lupi. I always thought the caduceus was used in religious rites? It was the attribute of the Greek Hermes or the Roman Mercury who were the gods of trade. eloquence and thieves. They were also the messengers of the Gods, posmen?
The caduceus is a stick of laurel or of olive wood, with two wings at the top and two snakes interwoven around it. The stick is for trade, the snakes for prudence and the wings for activity and speed.



Justin thanks for showing so well the time period compared to the others in the East. I had a problem situating this because numbers of dates are too abstract for me and I cannot remeber them. Bubble

3kings
October 2, 2002 - 02:15 am
The whole page seems to be centred on my VDU. Do others here see it the same way?

I have a question about the Palace at Knossos. When I visited the sight some time ago, there was no sign of defensive walls around the buildings. It seems strange to me to have an administrative centre in those ages that did not have a defensive wall about it. All other places I have seen had walls as the first line of defense.

The early Cretens would have been as warlike as other peoples, but-- no walls. Can anyone enlighten me on this matter, please?-- Trevor

robert b. iadeluca
October 2, 2002 - 02:45 am
Eloise:--Thank you for the link. The palace at Cnossus would be most impressive today, never mind five thousand years ago! Marriott would be pleased to own it.

Tooki:--I have emailed you regarding underlining.

Yes, Trevor, we all see the text as centered. I am checking to see what is happening. In the meantime it is comforting to know that we are all centered.

Bubble:--I remember reading in history how the soldiers in early American history used blunderbi to cause rucki in the British ranks. Finally the British surrendered causing hiati in the fighting.

Robby

Bubble
October 2, 2002 - 03:03 am
Ha ha ha Robby, it took me a minute to see what you refered to.



Text centered here too and only in this discussion. I thought it was a nice innovation? It made me more attentive. Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
October 2, 2002 - 03:38 am
"The Cretan has not left us, aside from his architecture, any accomplishments of massive grandeur or exalted style. Like the Japanese of Samurai days, he delights rather in the refinement of the lesser and more intimate arts, the adornment of objects daily used, the patient perfecting of little things.

"As in every aristocratic civilization, he accepts conventions in the form and subject of his work, avoids extravagant novelties, and learns to be free even within the limitations of reserve and taste. He excels in pottery, gem cutting, bezel carving, and reliefs, for here his microscopic skill finds every stimulus and opportunity.

"He is at home in the working of silver and gold, sets all the precious stones, and makes a rich diversity of jewels. Upon the seals that he cuts to serve as official signatures, commercial labels, or business forms, he engraves in delicate detail so much of the life and scenery of Crete that from them alone we might picture his civilization. He hammers bronze into basins, ewers, daggers, and swords ornamented with floral and animal designs, and inlaid with gold and silver, ivory and rare stones.

"At Gournia he has left us, despite the thieves of thirty centuries, a silver cup of finished artistry. Here and there he has molded for us rhytons, or drinking horns, rising out of human or animal heads that to this day seem to hold the breath of life."

I am still amazed that this fine work was done by a civilization of over 5,000 years ago.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
October 2, 2002 - 09:03 am

The link below takes you to a picture of a rhyton found at the Palace of Zakros.

ZAKROS VASE

tooki
October 2, 2002 - 09:52 am
Trevor

Conventional wisdom, from the various sites we have visited, seems to be that, being on an island, Knossos needed no fortifications. I suppose they would be able to see who was coming and run out and turn them back. And anyway, King(s) Minos were such cool rulers and so in command of the various surrounding seas that no one dared attack. This all sounds a little too tricky for me. I think there were no "men" at Knossos, merely young men in attendance upon the various goddesses, as Evans, and Durant, call them. Talk about tricky explanations!

CallieK
October 2, 2002 - 10:40 am
MALRYN: We saw the vase pictured in your link in the Iraklion museum. Information was that it was found in 300+ pieces and carefully restored. It is "awesome".


Because of the modern entryway into the grounds at Knossos, it was hard to visualize the original setting. But, as I remember it, the palace was on elevated ground - which would have made walled fortification less necessary. There were four entrances into the palace complex (North, South, East, West), and a central courtyard, completely surrounded by buildings and reached by rather long and not always straight "corridors". Anyone wishing to enter would probably have had to go through multiple Security Checks.


Is there a tendency to think these ancient civilizations lacked inquiring minds and high intellect? Surely, there were those who wondered and observed and learned and developed beneficial technologies. And, surely, some of the population spent time doing other things besides chasing bulls through labryinths and messing around with snakes!!

Justin
October 2, 2002 - 01:08 pm
Minoan sea trading was extensive. They had naval power because we are told they rid the sea lanes of Pirates. That means that the "wall" was a sea wall and it was obviously effective or Evans would have found a stone wall on the perimeter.

Faithr
October 2, 2002 - 01:17 pm
I regard people of ancient times and civiliztions the same way as I regard people of our own time. Some busy going to work, some tending to the religious life of their country, some growing the food, some selling it, and some women who had the full power to run the home and whatever home business was occuring there, and some women who influanced politics in various ways, and some women who were sequestered and only allowed to be wife and mother not a huge difference from today in parts of the world.. I am positive that there were some who men and women did nothing and scavengered from those who did. There would have been good and evil. There would have been laughter and tears and always a searching to know just who we are ..we human beings. fr

CallieK
October 2, 2002 - 01:18 pm
Well put, Faith. I agree.

Justin
October 2, 2002 - 01:29 pm
Faithr; I concur. They were human and you describe essential human activity. We have a tendency, looking back so far in time, to overlook the very human aspects of communal life.

Justin
October 2, 2002 - 01:47 pm
The Zakro Vase is magnificent. Does anyone know it's dimensions? Have all the pieces been found? Are the seams disguised or are they evident? Zakro is a hill-sanctuary, is it not? I have Hoegler's photographs but his catalogue does not include this piece. Many of the terracotta jugs and vases have been reassembled. The LMl vase with reed design from Phaistos, reassembled from many parts, allows one to see the whole with minimal distraction from the parts. I don't know why the Zakro piece is described as a rhyton. A rhyton is a drinking vessel usually of pottery. That does not seem to be the case here.

Malryn (Mal)
October 2, 2002 - 02:04 pm

Below is a link to a page about the Rhyton Bull found at the Little Palace at Knossos. Click the image to see a larger picture.

RHYTON BULL

Justin
October 2, 2002 - 02:36 pm
Steatite is a soapstone that usually appears in a green color however, there are other colors as well.

robert b. iadeluca
October 2, 2002 - 07:13 pm
"Nothing else in ancient Crete is quite so attractive as its painting. The sculpture is negligible, the pottery is fragmentary, the architecture is in ruins. But this frailest of all the arts, easy victim of indifferent time, has left us legible and admirable masterpieces from an age so old that it slipped quite out of the memory of that classic Greece of whose painting, by contrast so recent, not one original remains.

"In Crete the earthquakes or the wars that overturned the palaces preserved here and there a frescoed wall. And wandering by them we molt forty centuries and meet the men who decorated the rooms of the Minoan kings. As far back as 2500 they make wall coatings of pure lime, and conceive the idea of painting in fresco upon the wet surface, wielding the brush so rapidly that the colors sink into the stucco before the surface dries. Into the dark halls of the palaces they bring the bright beauty of the open fields. They make plaster sprout lilies, tulips, narcissi, and sweet marjoram. No one viewing these scenes could ever again suppose that nature was discovered by Rousseau.

"In the museum at Heracleum the Saffon Picker is as eager to pluch the crocus as when his creator painted him in Middle Minoan days. His waist is absurdly thin, his body seems much too long for his legs. And yet his head is perfect, the colors are soft and warm, the flowers still fresh after four thousand years.

"At Hagia Triada the painter brightens a sarcophagus with spiral scrolls and queer, almost Nubian figures engrossed in some religious rituals. Better yet, he adorns a wall with waving foliage, and then places in the midst of it, darkly but vividly, a stout, tense cat preparing to spring unseen upon a proud bird preening its plumage in the sun.

"In Late Minoan the Cretan painter is at the top of his stride. Every wall tempts him, every plutocrat calls him. He decorates not merely the royal residences but the homes of nobles and burghers with all the lavishness of Pompeii. Soon, however, success and a surfeit of commissions spoil him. He is too anxious to be finished to quite touch perfection. He scatters quantity about him, repeats his flowers monotonously, paints his men impossibly, contents himself with sketching outlines, and falls into the lassitude of an art that knows that it has passed its zenith and must die.

"But never before, except perhaps in Egypt, has painting looked so freshly at the face of nature."

It is obvious that Durant is completely awed by the paintings of Crete. Your reaction, please?

Robby

Bubble
October 2, 2002 - 11:28 pm
Me too! It seems Nature has always awed and inspired Man.

Éloïse De Pelteau
October 3, 2002 - 06:40 am
It is worthwhile to wait a few seconds for these pictures to download of Knossos wall paintings of the "Parisienne Dancer" the "Toreador" "Sarcophages" and many frescoes.

----------HERE-----------

Eloïse

robert b. iadeluca
October 3, 2002 - 06:51 am
You're right, Eloise. It was worthwhile to wait the downloading. I found that if I spent some time continually looking at one painting, I began to notice things I hadn't seen at first glance. I especially liked the Bluebird. And, in one of the bull-leaping paintings, the painter drew a dotted line which seemed to point out what I had thought earlier -- i.e. the painter was illustrating the action of just one leaper.

Robby

OrchidLady
October 3, 2002 - 11:26 am
I think the viewer is so impressed by Minoan painters because they have so much life and color, with an appreciation of the world around them, the plants, the dolphins in the sea, etc.

We were familiar with the Greek art - and I don't remember ever seeing any Greek paintings, and their sculpture is always (as far as I know) representative of important theological figures, and significant people in their history.

And Egypt art is most limited to the pharoh in one pose or another. I've seen pictures of tomb paintings of men hunting in the marshes at the river's edge, birds, cats, etc. but most of their art isn't very informal. So we find the Minoan art so fresh, and full of life we are captivated by it. I love the appearances of the women. I wouldn't want to have to dress like them, or have to cope with hair like theirs, but they certainly took an interest in their appearance. Louise

robert b. iadeluca
October 3, 2002 - 01:32 pm
Here are some examples of AEGEAN ART as sent to me by Bubble.

Robby

Justin
October 3, 2002 - 04:55 pm
Paintings appear in fresco and on sarcophagi. Figures are presented to us largely in profile, in the Egyptian manner. The sarcophagi figures are depicted not only on profile but also in full and modified frontality with the feet in profile. The presentation technique is very close to that of the Egyptian where the presumption is that the manner represents as much of the body as possible. The Minoans seem to be much less conventional in their presentation of bodies. The Parisienne is hard edged and washed in lapis lazuli. The same is so for the blue bird. Some of the hard edge sketches that Eloise showed us have sufficient variation to suggest portraiture and that unlike the Egyptians who tend to idealize their images. There is much animation in the Minoan paintings which is reminiscent of New Kingdom painting. The sarcophagi works are from Hagia Triada LM ll which I think coincides with Ahknatun and the the new Kingdom. The originator of the manner is not clear to me. The Minoans could have copied and modified the Egyptians or the Egyptians could have copied and modified the Minoans. There are good arguments on both sides of the question. I suspect the copyist is Minoan for they were the sea traders.

North Star
October 3, 2002 - 05:31 pm
The above statement bothers me because of the beautiful craftsmanship of the Scythians who, while they had elaborate funeral customs, did not create a great civilization the way it is being defined by Durant. They lived about 1000 BCE in Russia and Anatolia. Scythian gold jewelry and ornaments

This wasn't exactly the couple I was looking for. I wanted the Egyptian scribe seated with his wife, holding hands. I think I saw them at the Metropolitan Museum in N.Y. many years ago. They may also have been at the Royal Ontario Museum about three years ago when they did an exhibit on ancient, ancient Egypt (before 1500 BCE. But this is for Louise who said she hadn't seen informal Egyptian art. Egyptian couple

robert b. iadeluca
October 3, 2002 - 05:38 pm
"To the complex interiors the artists of Cnossus add the most delicate decorations. Some of the rooms they adorn with vases and satuettes, some with paintings or reliefs, some with huge stone amphorae or massive urns, some with objects in ivory, faience or bronze. Around one wall they run a limestone frieze with pretty triglyphs and half rosettes, around another a panel of spirals and frets on a surface painted to simulate marble. Around another they carve in high relief and living detail the contests of man and bull.

"Through the halls and chambers the Minoan painter spreads all the glories of his cheerful art. Here, caught chattering in a drawing room, are Ladies in Blue, with classic features, shapely arms, and cozy breasts. Here are fields of lotus, or lilies, or olive spray. Here are Ladies at the Opera, and dolphins swimming motionlessly in the sea."

Cozy? Just how just a painter portray that?

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
October 3, 2002 - 05:39 pm
Justin - Thank you for that interesting post on Minoan Paintings. Because I have not had any training whatwoever on this subject in the past I will look at paintings in the future 'avec un oeil exercé' sorry, but I don't know the English translation.

robert b. iadeluca
October 3, 2002 - 05:42 pm
How about "with a sharp eye?"

Robby

Justin
October 3, 2002 - 05:49 pm
The golden age of Minoan life Evans dates from 1500 to 1300. It is the period of the second palace and the creation of many wet frescoes to adorn the walls. The style is quite lively and vibrant.Figures are presented in modified Egyptian cannon with a frontal eye and modified frontal bodies.

In Egypt, the Hyksos are displaced by 1500 and the New kingdom begins. In 1450 several dry frescoes appear in which the cannon is modified. A century later the Amarna period brings in greatly modified figures in dry fresco which appear lively and vibrant. Birds and animals and plant life appear now in Egyptian work. This abrupt change in the cannon had to come from somewhere. But where? Was it Minoan? That's the question.

tooki
October 3, 2002 - 08:55 pm
I think he merely means close together. The so called "bodices" the women wear are really early wonder bras, the push up kind. Calling their outfits cozy escapes explaining how the effect is gained. Durand appears to be a gentle prude. The clothes are wonderfully engineered.

Justin
October 3, 2002 - 10:22 pm
Tooki: Have you ever read the Engineering of a Strapless Evening Gown.It was standard fair at all Engineering colleges in the fifties.The work was a erudite discussion of the stresses and strains involved and proposals for their relief.

robert b. iadeluca
October 4, 2002 - 03:08 am
I wonder if all the other participants in Books & Literature realize the extent of our learning here in The Story of Civilization!

Robby

Bubble
October 4, 2002 - 03:25 am
True! I never realized one had to be an engineer to ba a good new bra manufacturer! What an education!



Justin, are there any depiction of sagging women before modern times? Just curious...

robert b. iadeluca
October 4, 2002 - 03:26 am
Durant moves us along as we approach the death of Crete.

"The Cretans seem kin in language, race, and religion to the Indo-European peoples of Asia Minor. There, too, clay tablets were used for writing, and the shekel was the standard of measurement. There, in Caria, was the cult of Zeus Labrandeus, i.e. Zeus of the Double Ax (labrya). There men worshiped the pillar, the bull, and the dove. There, in Phrygia, was the great Cybele, so much like the mother goddess of Crete that the Greeks called the latter Rhea Cybele, and considered the two divinities one.

"And yet the signs of Egyptian influence in Crete abound in every age. The two cultures are at first so much alike that some scholars presume a wave of Egyptian emigration to Crete in the troubled days of Menes. The stone vases of Mochlos and the copper weapons of Early Minoan I are strikingly like those found in Proto-Dynastic tombs. The double ax appears as an amulet in Egypt, and even a 'Priest of the Double Ax.' The weights and measures, though Asiatic in value, are Egyptian in form. The methods used in the glyptic arts, in faience, and in painting are so similar in the two lands that Spengler reduced Cretan civilization to a mere branch of the Egyptians."

What will future archeologists assume as they unearth American artifacts with a mixture of Nordic, Mediterranean, African, Asiatic, and Native American origins? Could Crete be the same but on a much smaller scale?

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
November 8, 2002 - 07:24 am
Oh! you guys crack me up!! They must have engineered something that sort of stayed up.

Bubble - Don't you know that women in ancient times didn't live that long?

The name Cybele is pronounced the same as "si belle" in French and I am wondering if the word 'belle' (beautiful) does not come from there? Justin?

Bubble
October 4, 2002 - 06:17 am
Eloise, I have seen in Africa women of 25 sagging, after they started with kids at fifteen and almost every year. They usually are not the one chosen to pose as models.

Malryn (Mal)
October 4, 2002 - 06:55 am

Maybe Durant meant cozy as in tea cozy.

Below is a link to site with some pictures you may already have seen, including the double axe.

THE MINOAN WORLD

Bubble
October 4, 2002 - 07:27 am
Since that "cozy" is intriguing, I went to search in an old dictionary on the assumption that maybe the meaning has changed a bit. The origin of cosy is Scottish and 60 years ago the first meaning was snug and comfortable. As a noun it is used in tea cosy and egg cosy. Snug and warm?

Malryn (Mal)
October 4, 2002 - 08:17 am

Here's a link to a very interesting illustrated article, which includes a map.

ANCIENT GREEKS IN AMERICA?

Justin
October 4, 2002 - 03:06 pm
English historians pronounce Cybèle as Kib bel ee. She is the goddess of natural things, like land and animals. But more than that are the rituals that were practiced in her name. In one rite the recipient descended into a ditch and was bathed in the blood of a bull which was slain over him. The cybele cult believed in immortality and that the soul was returned after death to it's celestial source. None of these attributes strike me as related to beauty(Belle) but the work of language is often strange and results in unexpected connections.

kiwi lady
October 4, 2002 - 10:22 pm
From Readers Digest - Life in Ancient Greece

Who were the Greeks? The Greeks first entered the territory now associated with them in about 2000BC when Egypt was a great power and the Minoans of Crete were evolving a highly sophisticated society on their island. Modern Scholars conjecture that some of these migrants probably from the steppes of Modern Russia and Central Asia moved to the mountainous North of Modern Greece from where they emerged as the Dorian Invaders of Southern Greece 7 centuries later.

Was this the reason for the almost oriental look and coloring of the Minoans? Perhaps the Minoans were from the same stock.

Carolyn

Justin
October 5, 2002 - 01:02 am
Kiwi:The Aegean Civilization which includes the Minoans on Crete entered the Bronze age in 4000 BCE. The Dorian Invasions did not begin until 1100. That is a difference of three millennia. By 1200 BCE the Minoans were gone and a couple of centuries later The Dorian invasion entered Crete as well as southern Greece. It is thought the original Dorians were from Epirus but my reading also points to the northwestern corner of the Balkans as a language source for the Greeks. The Arcadians and the Achaeans came out of Thessaly to occupy Mycenae. It was these chaps,scholars think, who raided Troy. This whole question of origins is not completely answered. From what I can gather, much of the origin question is pretty well nailed down but parts of it are in flux. However, the timing of the Minoans and the Dorian invasion seems pretty clear.

Justin
October 5, 2002 - 01:07 am
Kiwi Lady: Can you give me the date for Reader's Digest Article? The steppes are an interesting source. That argument poses a completely new origin for the Dorians.

kiwi lady
October 5, 2002 - 01:31 am
Justin it is a hard covered book entitled 'Life in Ancient Greece'. It is part of a seried entitled 'Journeys into the past'. It was published in 1996. I actually saw much the same information on a website where I cannot remember. I was thinking the Mongolians have an oriental look and they are a not a tall race. There is a time chart in the back cover I will attempt to post tomorrow it differs somewhat from the dates mentioned by Durante.

Carolyn

robert b. iadeluca
October 5, 2002 - 03:44 am
"The Cretan quality is distinct. No other people in antiquity has quite this flavor of minute refinement, this concentrated elegance in life and art. Let us believe that in its racial origins the Cretan culture was Asiatic, in many of its arts Egyptian. In essence and total it remained unique. Perhaps it belonged to a complex of civilization common to all the Eastern Mediterranean, in which each nation inherited kindred arts, beliefs, and ways from wide-spread neolthic culture parent to them all.

"From that common civilization Crete borrowed in her youth, to it she contributed in her maturity. Her rule forged an order in the isles, and her merchants found entry at every port. Then her wares and her arts pervaded the Cyclades -- overran Cyprus -- reached to Caria and Palestine -- moved north through Asia Minor and its islands to Troy -- reached west through Italy and Sicily to Spain -- penetrated the mainland of Greece even to Thesaly -- and passed through Mycenae and Tiryns into the heritage of Greece.

In the history of civilization Crete was the first link in the European chain."

Now Durant raises the gaze of our eyes. For the first time he allows us to begin looking at what is later to be considered an entirely different continent. But he asks us simultaneously to keep the Asiatic influence in mind.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
October 5, 2002 - 07:37 am

CHESSBOARD KNOSSOS

Bubble
October 5, 2002 - 07:43 am
Any idea how this chessboard was used, Mal? It looks different from any games I have seen.

Malryn (Mal)
October 5, 2002 - 07:45 am

Below is a link to a picture of a gold ring found in a tomb at Isopata near Knossos. On it are women dancing in a lily meadow and a small figure considered to be a goddess descending from the sky. On the ground are signs of eyes and snakes. 15th century B.C.



ISOTOPA RING

Malryn (Mal)
October 5, 2002 - 07:48 am

No, Bubble, I don't know anything about it.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
October 5, 2002 - 07:56 am
The color and details in those links are SPECTACULAR!

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
October 5, 2002 - 08:08 am

TAVLI, GREECE'S NATIONAL GAME, DATES BACK 5000 YEARS

Éloïse De Pelteau
October 5, 2002 - 08:20 am
Mal - I am in awe of the excellence of artistic treasures found dating back to the 15th cemtury. That ring is so beautiful.

robert b. iadeluca
October 5, 2002 - 09:16 am
Eloise:--I know you meant this but it doesn't hurt to emphasize that we are talking about the 15th Century B.C.E. and not 15th Century A.D. In fact I notice that in much of this volume Durant gives the date without even saying B.C.E. (just as you did) so that we must all assume that in The Life of Greece we are talking about B.C.E.

Robby

Bubble
October 5, 2002 - 10:13 am
Tavli is a game played here in all the Arab cafes, by the hour. It is considered to be a man's game. My daughter was very proud in the army to beat every single man at it, and there always was one to challenge her and lose. But it is also luck with the dice, not only strategy. I knew it was old, but never realized how much.



Today those tavli boxes are made from olive wood with intricate mother of pearl inlaid designs on the outside. It is always a noisy game with the dice resounding on the wood and apparently part of the pleasure in playing. I always flee to another room when there is a game going.



That ring shows such excellent craftmanship, it is difficult to believe it is so old. Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
October 5, 2002 - 12:28 pm
"Crete's once famous forests of cypress and cedar vanished. Today two thirds of the island are a stony waste, incapable of holding the winter rains. Perhaps there too, as in most declining cultures, population control went too far, and reproduction was left to the failures. Perhaps, as wealth and luxury increased, the pursuit of physical pleasure sapped the vitality of the race, and weakened its will to live or to defend itself.

"Possibly the collapse of Egypt after the death of Ikhnaton disrupted Creto-Egyptian trade, and diminished the riches of the Minoan kings. Crete had no great internal resources. Her prosperity required commerce, and markets for her industries. Like modern England she had become dangerously dependent upon control of the seas.

"Perhaps internal wars decimated the island's manhood, and left it disunited against foreign attack. Perhaps an earth quake shook the palaces into ruins, or some angry revolution avenged in a year of terror the accumulated oppressions of centuries."

Any lessons here for us?

Robby

OrchidLady
October 5, 2002 - 01:19 pm
Well, I guess the lesson is that all civilizations will change, and change, until finally they collapse. Perhaps life becomes too easy for the citizens of a great power, and they see no need for any self-discipline. They have all they want, why should they concern themselves with the future.Louise

robert b. iadeluca
October 5, 2002 - 02:27 pm
Makes one wonder what sort of civilization will follow this one.

Robby

Faithr
October 5, 2002 - 03:07 pm
It does for a fact Robbie, make one wonder. So far the collapse of particular civilizations all seem to follow the great success' and the complacancy of the general population. I wonder if in small populations that didn't have infux of outsiders if there might have been also a problem with inbreeding? That is what makes me think it would not happen in US as we are constantly changing our genetic population. fr

MaryPage
October 5, 2002 - 04:45 pm
Everything they did, we are doing. We will be toast, and our intense curiosity about what, if any, intelligent life will follow will not be relieved. DARN!

robert b. iadeluca
October 5, 2002 - 04:45 pm
"Land of cozy bosomed women and bull jumpers."I love this gang here! And wonder sometimes (I wonder about a lot of things) what is the reaction of new Senior Netters who come here for a visit.

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
October 5, 2002 - 05:30 pm
There is no chance of inbreeding in Montreal because in today's paper La Presse"in one primary school alone, Jean Grou, out of 217 students, only one had a mother and a father who were born in Quebec. 3 children spoke French at home, 14 spoke English, 52 Arabic, 35 Ourdou, 23 Chinese, 15 Spanish, 13 Tamoul, 12 Dari, etc. etc. for a total of 28 languages spoken around the table.

33.83% or a third of students are Allophones in Montreal where the mother tongue is neither French nor English. That is how much Montreal is multicultural.

I told a woman once that I was born and raised in Montreal, she said: "that's impossible, nobody in Montreal was born here."

Robby - If Durant said that (post 219) I wonder what he would say today? I will remember to mention BCE in the future.

Eloïse

North Star
October 5, 2002 - 06:05 pm
Crete could take a lesson from Israel and plant some trees.

Do any of you get the Discovrery Channel? Tomorrow they will have a show on King Tut and what he really looked like - they will have a reconstruction of his face and some background on the four suspects, one of whom murdered him.

tooki
October 5, 2002 - 10:09 pm
I think one needs to be cautious, even suspicious, about the authenticity of art objects shown on the net. All art objects have a "provenance," and archeological objects also have a "provenience." That is, where the object was discovered and who owned it. These facts help establish that it's not a fake. (Help me out here, Justin). One needs these facts before accepting an art object at face value, so to speak. The Isotopa Ring, with it's exciting colors, looks to me like a bunch of Carmen Miranda dancers. (Other comments available upon request). Sorry if I stepped on any toes.

Malryn (Mal)
October 5, 2002 - 10:28 pm

With all due respect to skepticism, Callie has corroborated many of the Ancient Crete art links I have posted. This corroboration is based on actual viewing of the artwork.

Mal

Justin
October 5, 2002 - 11:57 pm
Art objects and artifacts that are turned over to a museum are catalogued. Some art works and artifacts are sold by the finder before they are catalogued. Others are smuggled out of the country with out cataloging. Resale of such works is difficult because authenticity is difficult to establish. However an audit trail of sales receits can provide a provenance back to the second owner who may not be able to identify a primary source. Art dealer associations insist on a provenance document for any artifacts handled by a dealer in that association. Sometimes an artifact without provenance is found in an attic or some other castaway place. Recently, some one found a work purported to be a Rembrandt. If it is not in the catalogue resonnee for Rembrandt then an effort is made to authenticate the work. Art Historians and other experts specializing in Rembrandt examine the work and provide a documented opinion. A provenance begins with those documents and one accepts or rejects the work based on those opinions. Adding the work to Rembrandts Catalogue Ressonnee is something else. That requires committee approval and it is often long in coming. If the work is added to Rembrandts catalogue it is added with it's history so all can know it's origin. The artifacts we have been examining are in the main catalogued items and are traceable back to the Crete Archeologist. However, since I have not seen pedigrees for the works I cannot say that each is a museum piece. We can look for footnotes on pieces we examine to identify museum holdings and perhaps a catalogue Number. I think that if the work is part of a museum holding and is not offered for sale, we can accept the work as authentic within a described provenance.

Bubble
October 6, 2002 - 01:09 am
We do have Discovery here. But I think each country downloads the progs and airs them at convenience? I will still have a look on the chance. It sounds intriguing.



Robby, I am starting to wonder if you were not a Cretian in some previous life? :-}


Bubble

Éloïse De Pelteau
October 6, 2002 - 03:39 am
Bubble - you are so funny at 6 am this morning HaHaHa:}}}.

Tookie - no, but I think that the photo enhanced the color and if we looked at the actual ring, it wouldn't have all the hues of that photograph, but would be the color of what gold usually has. The figures seem to me to resemble other artwork of that period.

Justin - I couldn't find 'ressonnee' in either the English or the French dictionnary.

Eloïse

robert b. iadeluca
October 6, 2002 - 04:25 am
The previous postings indicate how serious this discussion group is and sceptism is at times a good thing. I have often told people I am an "open-minded sceptic."

Bubble:--I'm not sure what traits of mine you had in mind. Were you thinking of cretin (notice the spelling)?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 6, 2002 - 04:35 am
"About 1450 the palace of Phaestus was again destroyed, that of Hagia Triada was burned down, the homes of the rich burghers of Tylissus disappeared. During the next fifty years Cnossus seems to have enjoyed the zenith of her fortune, and a supremacy unquestioned throughout the Aegean.

"Then about 1400, the palace of Cnossus itself went up in flames. Everywhere in the ruins Evans found signs of uncontrollable fire -- charred beams and pillars, blackened walls, and clay tablets hardened against time's tooth by the conflagration's heat. So thorough was the destruction, and so complete the removal of metal even from rooms covered and protected by debris, that many students suspect invasion and conquest rather than earthquake. In any case, the catastrophe was sudden. The workshops of artists and artisans give every indication of having been in full activity when death arrived. About the same time Gournia, Pseira, Zakro, and Palaikastro were lveled to ground."

Obviously a gigantic catastrophe. What do you folks think happened? Is it something that could happen in our own part of the world?

Robby

moxiect
October 6, 2002 - 05:02 am
Could it be said that in 1400 that Cnossus was hit by a metior shower which caused the conflagration. Yes, Robby it could happen here and did only exception was the buildings were totally destroyed and barren of art work.

Could one assume that Crete was the 'melting pot' of the known civilization in that time frame which met and prospered thru commerce and unfortunately war.

robert b. iadeluca
October 6, 2002 - 05:05 am
"Crete was the 'melting pot' of the known civilization in that time frame."

An interesting concept, Moxi. A possible similarity to the America of today? What do the rest of you think?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
October 6, 2002 - 06:40 am

The thumbnail picture of the Isopata ring I posted can be found on the Hellenic Ministry of Culture page linked below along with pictures of other Cretan and Greek artifacts. The ring is located in the Archaological Museum of Herakleion in Crete, and the photographs are the property of the Herakleion Museum.

HERAKLEION MUSEUM

Bubble
October 6, 2002 - 07:17 am
Robby, I am starting to wonder if you were not a Cretian (sic) in some previous life? :-}



Discovery today has a totally different programme here. I am so sorry about that! Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
October 6, 2002 - 07:23 am
The items in that museum shown in Mal's link were definitely of interest but a small part of my mind, looking at the modern architecture of the museum, the cars, the paved roads, and the street signs kept saying: "This is the very spot where a king presided in an entirely different civilization 5,000 years ago. And now look at it. Is the term homogeneity coming to mean one world where no matter where you go, everything looks the same? Is there a Marriott in Cnossus? And if there is, does it have the very same type of rooms as in New York City?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
October 6, 2002 - 07:50 am

Make your reservation at the Knossos Royal Village 5 Star Hotel right on the water by clicking the link below.

KNOSSOS ROYAL VILLAGE

Malryn (Mal)
October 6, 2002 - 07:59 am

Or you might rather stay at the Atlantis Hotel, only 4 Stars, in the center of Heraklio Town in Crete. Make your reservation now for off season to get reduced rates. Scroll down for rates. (Boy, would I ever like to go!

Edit: Doesn't that make you mad! They have the same link for each hotel! Click MORE HOTELS at the left of the page. Then click ATLANTIS HOTEL when the new page comes up to see it. It looks like downtown everywhere.

ATLANTIS HOTEL

robert b. iadeluca
October 6, 2002 - 08:29 am
I guess there is a moral here somewhere. At least the Village was ROYAL!

Robby

Bubble
October 6, 2002 - 08:45 am
As an Italian and an Israeli I resent they do not offer the same prices!



Is that still animosity from WWII when Greece occupied the Italian islands? I know my dad had to leave Rhodes or loose his Italian nationality.



The 5 stars are the same all over, as the Mc Donalds and the Pizza Huts. That is because the tourists demands it. They feel safer in an environment they are familiar with. Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
October 6, 2002 - 08:49 am
"Palaces were built again, but more modestly, and for a generation or two the products of Crete continued to dominate Aegean art. About the middle of the thirteenth century we come at last upon a specific Cretan personality -- that King Minos of whom Greek tradition told so many frightening tales.

"His brides were annoyed at the abundance of serpents and scorpions in his seed. But by some secret device his wife Pasiphae eluded these, and safely bore him many children, among them Phaedra (wife of Theseus and lover of Hippolytus) and the fair-haired Ariadne. Minos having offended Poseidon, the god afflicted Pasiphae with a mad passion for a divine bull. Daedalus pitied her, and through his contrivance she conceived the terrible Minotaur. Minos imprisoned the animal in the Labyrinth which Daedalus had built at his command, but appeased it periodically with human sacrifice."

We are approaching Greek mythology but did the Greek myths possibly evolve from half-truths emanating from Crete millennia before?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 6, 2002 - 09:10 am
Click HERE to see a map of the islands including Rhodes where Bubble's dad lived.

Maybe Bubble might tell us a bit more about that area and any of her family's experiences she is willing to share.

Robby

MaryPage
October 6, 2002 - 09:36 am
For those of you who may have missed it previously, the SPARTAN documentary will be repeated on the History channel this afternoon starting at three Eastern time. All four hours of it! I thought it quite wonderful.

Bubble
October 6, 2002 - 10:02 am
Actually I don't know that much about Rhodes. My dad was sent to work in a bank in Rhodes at age 15 because he was the eldest of 9 siblings. His whole family lived in Izmir, Turkey. In 36 or 37 he started corresponding with a girl who worked as a secretary at the Alliance Francaise school in Cairo. They were both French speaking from home. They met when the school sponsored a visit of the island for the graduates. In 38 there were already many anti-Semitic measures and limitations to the Jewish population and my dad decided it was wiser to move on. He left for Cairo, got married and went with his new bride on honeymoon to the Belgian Congo. Some members of the same family who had the bank in Rhodes were settled there and helped them emigrate.



From all the friends and relatives who were in Rhodes, only those emigrating to Congo were saved: the whole Jewish community perished in the concentration camps, together with many other community from Greece. It is one of the saddest pages of our history.

Earlier this year a monument and a museum have been erected on the island in the memory of the lost community. The children of those who had found a refuge in Congo donated it. Unfortunately it was desecrated last month and swastikas painted all over.



My dad told me how he lived in a house called “The Villa of the Roses” because of all the scented bushes in the garden. He told me of a well with growing jasmine around it. Actually I think one of the names for Rhodes is the island of the roses. On weekends, he and his gang of friends used to go around the island with their bicycles and have picnics in the mountains or on deserted beaches. From the pictures I have, it was a rough country, very undeveloped. A meal of goat cheese, olives and wine was a real feast. Who could predict the upheaval a few years later? The Rhodes of that time does not exist anymore.

robert b. iadeluca
October 6, 2002 - 10:18 am
Thank you so much for that sharing, Bubble. By giving it the personal touch, it helps us to understand how life may have been and any changes that occurred -- many of them sad, as you said. Interesting that many emigrated to Belgian Congo but, that being a French speaking nation, I can understand that. And so that, I understand, became the home of your childhood.

Robby

Bubble
October 6, 2002 - 10:37 am
Yes I was born in Elisabethville and the Jewish community there was all from Rhodes, so that I grew up tasting the special mediterranean dishes, hearing the soft Ladino-Spanish spoken by the "nonas" of those families. I lived there until 3y before graduation.



For those fluent in French, there is a very good book published last year called: "Rhodes, un pan de memoire: by Rahmani. It relates the story of that community and of those who left for the Congo. It seems that with the war of independence in Congo, many of these families emigrated to the States and are in Atlanta and Seattle. Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
October 6, 2002 - 10:37 am
Click HERE to see the island itself. On this map you can zoom in and out and move it about.

I realize that this is not part of the discussion of Crete but here in The Story of Civilization we have often made brief trips aside from Durant's remarks to get a feeling of the area and then return to the topic at hand. From time to time, participants here have been able to lend their personal experiences to the flavor of the theme.

Robby

Faithr
October 6, 2002 - 11:11 am
It is so nice to have Bubble tell her story. Her father must also have been a storyteller. That is the way I got as much family history as I have, through story tellers in the family. When the oldest ones gathered then all the grand parents and aunts and uncles had a wonderful time telling stories and the children sat around them like little children will watching the campfires or fireplaces and listening and gathering history in the most personal sense. When I read Bubbles story the pain at the telling of losing the Jewish community there struck me more intensly than I could have believed. All that I have read and learned of that infamous part of history came back at once. Then came the comfort of knowing she was raised with soft spoken nana's and loving parents. Good story , I love story tellers.. Faith

Bubble
October 6, 2002 - 11:20 am
Faith, I was lucky to "share" the nona of my friends. We were the smallest family there: only my parents and I. I never met my maternal nono and nona and saw my paternal nono only when I was 25 and for a very short time. My mother too had eight siblings. I have innumerable cousins around the world but never knew then in childhood or as a teen. It was the price to pay for being safe in Africa I suppose.



Yes, my dad had a keen eye for observation and a dry sense of humor.

Malryn (Mal)
October 6, 2002 - 11:38 am

Like Faith, I was very moved by Bubble's post. All I could think about was what a part of civilization her story is. Remember when we were discussing Jews in Our Oriental Heritage? What was it? These people were banished to Ancient Assyria and finally were able to leave. My copy of the book is on a shelf I can't get to, or I'd look it up.

I truly didn't really comprehend the presence of Nazis in Greece until I read Captain Corelli's Mandolin. On a search about Rhodes, I found more about Nazis in Greece.

I feel so overwhelmed. All these jigsaw puzzle facts of history in my mind that I can't piece together. Relating Bubble's story to us: What if we in this country were forced to leave and try to find a place which would accept us? Too much. I can't think about it any more.

Below is a link to the Kahal Shalom Synogogue in Rhodes, the oldest synogogue in Greece, built in 1577 AD. There's more about Jewish history and civilization on this page.



KAHAL SHALOM SYNOGOGUE, RHODES

robert b. iadeluca
October 6, 2002 - 12:24 pm
Mal says:--"All these jigsaw puzzle facts of history in my mind that I can't piece together. Relating Bubble's story to us: What if we in this country were forced to leave and try to find a place which would accept us?"

Mal's comment relates to the third question in the Heading above - "Where are we headed?" Our discussion here is not solely about "Where have we been?" I have often described our topic in this forum as a mystery story. Yes, there is an original event. Then in come the detectives (us) who try to figure out what happened and what it is leading to. To use the mystery story jargon -- What was (is)the Motive?

Robby

Bubble
October 6, 2002 - 12:28 pm
Mal thank you so much for that visit to the synagogue. I had heard about it but never been there of course.



To be able to have a proper service in a synagogue, you need a minyan, that is a qurum of 10 males above the age of 13. Apparently there are less than the required number of religious Jews there today. Our Congo- Rhodesli rabbi who left after the independence and now lives in Belgium, has made the vow to be every years in Rhodes for the High Holidays of our New Year and Yom Kipur. He leads the service there with the tourists coming with him. The synagogue is open then like in the old days



If you look at the list of names of those killed in the war, about the middle of the column, you will see Levy. It is the name of his whole family decimated in the camp. He was hired as a young rabbi for the new community in Elisabethville and thus was saved.



We have records that my maternal family left Spain because of the inquisition and settled in Egypt, mostly in Cairo and Alexandria. Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
October 6, 2002 - 12:46 pm
Mal's link to the Kahal Shalom Synagogue is one of the most powerful I have ever experienced. I can barely guess the effect it must have had on Bubble. In addition to reading the info (so much of which was new to me), I found the audio created such an emotion. Be sure to click on all three of them.

I continue to repeat that platitude: "The more I learn, the more I realize how little I know." Bubble had used the word "Ladino" and now I know what it means. I had known what happened to the Jews in Germany but in that "far off" land of Rhodes, who knew? I certainly didn't. It made Bubble's sharing of her family experiences so much more meaningful. And as Mal reminds us, we who participated in Our Oriental Heritage and went through the creation and destruction of Judea may find this link profound.

And Bubble, I hope you won't misunderstand this comment of mine but as I listened to the language being spoken (Hebrew?), it sounded to my uneducated ears so much like Arabic that I continue to wonder about the differences between these Semitic "cousins."

Robby

Bubble
October 6, 2002 - 12:55 pm
I was dying to hear those audios especially since I know family members of the first cantor, but did not succeed in opening them And yes, I was very moved. I bookmarked the link after forwarding to all my cousins.



Of course I do not misinterpret Robby. We have a lot in common with our "cousins". I myself think that litterar arabic sounds much more musical. Again, it is impossible to talk about the "sound of Arabic" because it is totally different from one country or region to another. It could maybe be compared to the different accents in US. My ear has got used to it, but in the beginning I could not enjoy the oriental beat of Hebrew music. Now I don't notice and am always surprised when my friends comment on the CDs I send them!

robert b. iadeluca
October 6, 2002 - 01:22 pm
"The oriental beat of Hebrew music."

What goes around comes around. So here we are talking about what had been happening in the sea next to Greece and again finding ourselves thinking about the Orient.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
October 6, 2002 - 01:41 pm

I think the motive is life and the continuation of it. More and more I think we humans are one, but don't want to accept that knowledge.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
October 6, 2002 - 01:47 pm
"The motive is Life."

- - - Mal

robert b. iadeluca
October 6, 2002 - 02:28 pm
And now Durant brings us to the end of our examination of Crete.

"There are indications that the Achaeans reached Crete in their long raid of Greece in the fourteenth and thirteenth centuries, and Dorian conquerors settled there toward the end of the second millennium before Christ. Here, said many Cretans and some Greeks, Lycurgus, and in less degree Solon, had found the model for their laws. In Crete as in Sparta, after the island had come under Dorian sway, the ruling class led a life of at least outward simplicity and restraint. The boys were brought up in the army, and the adult males ate together in public mess halls. The state was ruled by a senate of elders, and was administered by ten kosmoi or orderers, corresponding to the ephors of Sparta and the archons of Athens.

"It is difficult to say whether Crete taught Sparta, or Sparta Crete. Perhaps both states were the parallel results of similar conditions -- the precarious life of an alien military aristocracy amid a native and hostile population of serfs.

"The comparatively enlightened law code of Gortyna, discovered on the walls of that Cretan town in A.D. 1884, belongs apparently to the early fifth century. In an earlier form it may have influenced the legislators of Greece.

"In the sixth century Thaletas of Crete taught choral music at Sparta, and the Cretan sculptors Dipoenus and Scyllis instructed the artists of Argos and Sicycon.

"By a hundred channels the old civilization emptied itself out into the new."

Any thoughts as to why Durant wanted us to examine Crete prior to visiting Greece?

Robby

kiwi lady
October 6, 2002 - 03:47 pm
The Minoans Durante believed passed on much to the Ancient Greeks and influenced their civilization- I think?

I have another study book on The Greeks and Greek civilization by historian Jacob Burckhardt and nowhere in it does he mention the Minoans although he does mention the Dorians. Perhaps the explanation was the theory of the Minoan civilization was not authenticated until much later but at the time of these lectures were not the first artifacts being discovered? I find this intriguing. This book has been compiled from lectures given in 1872 at the University of Basle. The book is interesting because it touches on the Psyche of the Greek People of which Burckhardt was more interested in than artifacts or art. I wil post some of his comments as we go through the book we are discussing.

Carolyn

Éloïse De Pelteau
October 6, 2002 - 05:24 pm
Bubble, I was very moved by your posts about your past and I realize that it is quite an exception for you to talk about yourself. I want to thank you for putting your trust in all your friends here who feel deeply about you. The others have said so well what I feel in my heart. You are a very special lady.

Eloïse

Justin
October 6, 2002 - 06:28 pm
It is always a little surprising to me to discover how closely our little group is tied to the history of the last century. We were a part of so many significant events.

Now I learn that Bubble connects to the Sephardic Jews driven out of Spain by the Inquisition, that she connects to the remnants who made it to Rhodes, that she connects to the remnant that made it to the Congo when the Nazis choked Greece and that finally she made it to Israel where the war with the Palestinians continues the violence and the hatred at her doorstep.

We Americans do not really grasp what it has meant to be a Jew in the world community in these last centuries. Anti semitism has not gone away. I am often surprised to find it in the most unlikely places, particularly among otherwise intelligent people. Some of us have this liitle quirk that is so painful to others.

kiwi lady
October 6, 2002 - 07:38 pm
I can honestly say amongst my age group there little anti semitism here in NZ. In fact one of our big OE experiences here as young adults was to choose to go and work on a Kibbutz in Israel, it was a popular choice. However in those 70 and up it is often alive and well but it is not spoken of too often. We have strict laws and you could end up in court or in front of the race relations conciliator!

Our city has a good relationship with our Jewish Community- every year there is a Hannukah Celebration for anyone who wants to join in downtown. It runs in Conjunction with our Christmas Celebration. It was lovely to see so many people joining in the traditional dancing. Fun!

Carolyn

North Star
October 6, 2002 - 08:45 pm
How coincidental that I had a conversation this afternoon with a Dr. Amato whose family had come from Rhodes. I believe in coincidence and this is certainly an example. I'm in western Canada.

Mal had mused about how horrible it would be to have to suddenly leave your home and Robbie asked where are we going. My impression of Jewish migration is that Jews generally leave a place rather than are headed to one. Normally it's the other way around. You choose to leave and go somewhere else.

North Star
October 6, 2002 - 10:09 pm
It's a horrible choice. You used other words but the result is the same.

Bubble
October 7, 2002 - 03:48 am
Thank you all for being so perceptive and understanding. I don't think you'll realize how grateful I am. Eloise is right, I very seldom confide, especially in such a large group as here.

Yes Justin, antisemitism is alive but usually not overtly. If you are interested in that part of history, may I recommend a fantastic book? It is the saga in novel form of Halter Marek who was/maybe is minister of culture in France a few years ago. The book is called "The book of Abraham" and has been translated in many languages. It covers the period of the Diaspora up to the creation of Israel. The sequel is titled "The sons of Abraham" and covers from 1948 to our days.



Yes Northstar, we usually leave all behind and just move. Only by coming to Israel do we really chose an end destination. My parents were friends with an Amato family in Congo, they had a big store called Amato Freres (The Brothers Amato). I wonder if they went to Canada when they left? Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
October 7, 2002 - 04:26 am
North Star says:--"How coincidental that I had a conversation this afternoon with a Dr. Amato whose family had come from Rhodes. I believe in coincidence and this is certainly an example. I'm in western Canada."

Bubble says:--"My parents were friends with an Amato family in Congo, they had a big store called Amato Freres (The Brothers Amato). I wonder if they went to Canada when they left?"

Can you believe this?

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
October 7, 2002 - 04:33 am
"By a hundred channels the old civilization emptied itself out into the new."

That is so interesting and we can see the result of that in the US where everyone's ancestors came from abroad only a couple of centuries ago. A civilization that pours itself into a new, like in America, and depending upon where that civilization came from, will forges itself into a special character that new blood always brings to change the face of a country. When I think of the United States, it is the most vibrant nation on earth and its immigration policy made it the way it is. Immigrants came with the desire for freedom that they had never known where they came from.

In Canada, we are only beginning to feel the impact of new blood on the character of the country. Only since the 19th century do we see a great influx of immigrants and that is changing the face of Canada. When I was a child, immigrants of the first generations were barely noticeable in Montreal, now they are one third of the population of the city and it is changing the face of the city. Now we see another ethnic background in representatives of our Municipal, Provincial and Federal government, something fairly new to us.

In studying Story of Civilizations, we saw that every powerful civilization lasted only a few centuries and at one point it collapsed through war, famine or disease. I can’t help but wonder how this civilization will end, because it will end, like they all do, I have no doubt about that.

Eloïse

robert b. iadeluca
October 7, 2002 - 04:49 am
"I can’t help but wonder how this civilization will end, because it will end, like they all do, I have no doubt about that."

Most people, certainly not those of us in this discussion group, go under the belief that "our nation will live forever."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 7, 2002 - 05:08 am
Durant entitles the next section --

Before Agamemnon

I interpret that to mean the period before the Trojan War as Agamemnon was the leader of the Greek forces during the Trojan War. He was the one who sailed for Troy, conducted the siege, and had an unhappy homecoming.But, according to Durant, we are not there yet.

First we must jump temporarily forward to the 19th Century A.D. and meet a most remarkable person who will help us to see what was going on before Agamemnon's time. Be sure to read the new GREEN quotes above to help set the atmosphere.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 7, 2002 - 05:18 am
"Schliemann's father had a passion for ancient history, and brought him up on Homer's stories of the siege of Troy and Odysseus' wanderings. 'With great grief I heard from him that Troy had been so completely destroyed that it had disappeared without leaving any trace of its existence.' At the age of eight, having given the matter mature consideration, Heinrich Schliemann announced his intention to devote his life to the rediscovery of the lost city. At the age of ten he presented to his father a Latin essay on the Trojan War. In 1936 (at the age of 14) he left school with an education too advanced for his means, and became a grocer's apprentice.

"In 1841 (age 19) he shipped from Hamburg as cabin boy on a steamer bound for South America. Twelve days out the vessel foundered. The crew was tossed about in a small boat for nine hours, and was thrown by the tide upon the shores of Holland. Heinrich became a clerk, and earned a hundred and fifty dollars a year. He spent half of this on books, and lived on the other half and his dreams.

"His intelligence and application had their natural results. At twenty-five he was an independent merchant with interests on three continents. At thirty-six he felt that he had enough money, retired from commerce, and gave all his time to archeology. 'In the midst of the bustle of business I had never forgotten Troy, or the agreement I had made with my father to excavate it.'"

An amazing person! Your reactions, please?

Robby

Bubble
October 7, 2002 - 05:42 am
someone with a dream and a one mind track! Was not Darwin the same?



Just to answer Eloise's #369, I think that many Americans resent the influx of immigrants and the changes this brings even if in future it will be beneficial. They would prefer immigrants to go unnotiveable and conform to them. Bubble

Éloïse De Pelteau
October 7, 2002 - 05:57 am
Bubble I was curious and looked in the phone book if we have Amatos living in Montreal, there are no businesses by that name, but about 40 Amatos listed in the book and they all have Italian surnames. I will ask my second-hand book store if he has The book of Abraham by Marek.

I should not have given away The Greek Treasure by Irving Stone, an historical novel about Schliemann, his digs for Troy and his marriage to a Greek women. Reading it I felt like an Archeologist and was as excited as they were at every treasure they found.

Eloïse

Bubble
October 7, 2002 - 06:02 am
Eloise, Amato is a family name (surname = a person's family hereditary name) in opposition to a given name, a Christian name or a forename. Amato means beloved I think...

Yes, That Irving Stone book is a wonderful read. I don't have it at the library, or I would have reread it now. Bubble

Malryn (Mal)
October 7, 2002 - 06:11 am

When we talk about the "end" of a civiization, do we mean the end of a nation or the end of Western civilization as we know it? England once was a powerful force in the world. The British Empire fell, but England is still around. The Dutch and Spanish were powerful forces and their power ended. Holland and Spain are still around. Exactly what do we think is going to end?

Heinrich Schliemann was a very unusual man. There is some controversy about his not always scientifically done archaeological excavations, and there are questions about whether some of the artifacts he found were "doctored." You'll read something about this if you click the second link below. On the page accessed by the first link you'll see a drawing Schliemann did of the excavation at the Temple of Athena at Troy.



HEINRICH SCHLIEMANN



HEROS AND MYTHOS

Éloïse De Pelteau
October 7, 2002 - 06:59 am
The European Union presently has 15 members and in the news yesterday, I heard that in a decade it could increase its membership to 22. With that number this entity will have over 800 million people living within its borders. It is a powerful force to contend with and it is easy to foresee the impact it will have on the world affairs. If they unite in defense as well as in economy, it will surpass America's power and they will dictate their intentions, but unless or until they adopt a common language, the EU might very well stay behing the US. If English becomes that common language, they might very well succeed in competing with America as the next super power.

robert b. iadeluca
October 7, 2002 - 07:36 am
"By writing in his diary, Schliemann learned English, French, Dutch, Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, Russian, Swedish, Polish, and Arabic. Now he went to Greece, studied the languge as a living speech, and was soon able to read both ancient and modern Greek as fluently as German. Henceforth, he declared: 'I should find it impossible to live anywhere but on classical soil.' Since his Russian wife refused to leave Russia, he advertised for a Greek wife, laid down precise specifications for the position, and at the age of forty-seven chose a bride of nineteen from among the photographs he received.

"He married her almost at sight, and unwittingly in the ancient style of purchase. Her parents charged him for her a price commensurate with their conception of his fortune. When his new wife bore him children he reluctantly consented to baptize them, but solemnized the ceremony by laying a copy of the Iliad upon their heads and reading a hundred hexameters aloud. He named them Andromache and Agamemnon, called his servants Telamon and Pelops, and christened his Athenian home Bellerophon.

"He was an old man mad about Homer."

Talk about setting a goal and accomplishing it!!

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
October 7, 2002 - 07:53 am

There is a picture of Heinrich Schliemann's lovely young bride, Sophie, in the first link I posted.

HERE

She's wearing jewelry from the "Treasure of Priam" which Schliemann found. Scroll down, please.

Mal

kiwi lady
October 7, 2002 - 11:23 am
People do indeed seem to become obsessed with the past. I know a man (ex pat American) who has given up any career to pursue his belief that the Maori were not the first people to settle NZ. He has written a book - has a website and is off all the time on digs. I don't know whether I believe him or not but he has some foreign archeologists who are now working with him so they must think there is a possibility.

Carolyn

3kings
October 7, 2002 - 11:54 am
Schliemann was obviously a man of brilliant accompishments, in the academic sense, but domestically he must have been a most unpleasant person. I wonder why the ' Victorian ' age produced so many men with such a personality? "All sensibility, and no sensitivity" as someone remarked.-- Trevor

MaryPage
October 7, 2002 - 01:40 pm
It is my sincere hope that Schliemann was the extreme of the type, TREVOR. Never liked the man from my first reading about him, but if he was really that accomplished in languages, I do admire that section of his brain.

Justin
October 7, 2002 - 01:44 pm
Now we come to the soft underbelly of Archeology- Schliemann. He bulldozed land that should have been fine-sifted. He falsified evidence and moved artifacts around, removed treasure from the host country and succeeded in finding Troy. Today, archeologists argue about level but not about Troy or no Troy.

The masks are an interesting problem and unless the nineteenth century perpetrator comes forward we may never know the solution. There is hope however. The techniques of authentication are improving all the time so we may yet figure out a way to determine validity of claims.

We have been having similar problems in under water archeology today. When divers work outside the waters of sovereign entities there is freedom to act like Schliemann. Some have acted like grave robbers. The UN has some influence but we need better control over the exploitation of ancient sites and ship wrecks as well as protecting the incentive to search for and possess found treasure.

Malryn (Mal)
October 7, 2002 - 01:49 pm

Below is a link to a wonderful page about Troy and Heinrich Schliemann with maps, a diagram of Troy as an archaeological site and images, including one of Schliemann's Troy Diary. Click the thumbnail image to access a larger picture.

ANCIENT TROY

tooki
October 7, 2002 - 02:57 pm
Any man who can accept that he hadn't found Agamemnon, and had instead found "Schulze," can't be all bad.

robert b. iadeluca
October 7, 2002 - 04:49 pm
An excellent map when enlarged, Mal! Shows Athens, Troy, Crete, Rhodes, and all the various islands. The text below the maps is most interesting as well.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 7, 2002 - 04:58 pm
"In 1870 Schliemann went to the Troad -- the northwest corner of Asia Minor -- and made up his mind, against all current scholarly opinion, that Priam's Troy lay buried under the hill called Hissarlik. After a year of negotiations he secured permission from the Turkish Government to explore the site. He engaged eighty laborers, and set to work.

"His wife, who loved him for his eccentricities, shared his toil in the earth from sunrise to sunset. All winter long an icy gale from the north drove a blinding dust into their eyes, and swept with such violence through the cracks of their frail cottage that no lamp could be kept lit in the evening. Despite the fire in the hearth the water froze nearly every night. 'We had nothing to keep us warm except our enthusiasm for the great work of discovering Troy.'

"A year passed before they were rewarded. Then, blow by blow, a workman's pick exposed a lage copper vessel, and this, opened, revealed an astonishing treasure of some nine thousand objects in silver and gold. The canny Schliemann hid the find in his wife's shawl, dismissed his workmen to an unexpected siesta, hurried to his hut, locked the door, spread out the precious things on the table, linked each one fondly with some passage in Homer, adorned his wife with an ancient diadem, and sent messages to his friends in Europe that he had unearthed 'the Treasury of Priam.' No one would believe him. Some critics charged him with having placed the objects where he found them. At the same time the Sublime Porte sued him for taking gold from Turkish soil.

"But scholars like Virchow, Dorpfild, and Burnouf came to the site, verified Schliemann's reports, and carried on the work with him until one buried Troy after another was uncovered, and the problem was no longer whether Troy had existed, but which of the nine Troys exhumed had been the Ilios of the Iliad."

I'm sure you have some thoughts about this!

Robby

Faithr
October 7, 2002 - 07:12 pm
I read many years ago a Diary and letters of Schliemann telling the story of his dig for Troy. Then later in time I read two different books about this gentleman and one was very critical of his methods and seemed to hint that he actually had a method of stealing the artifacts to get them out of Turkey and I do not doubt it. Look where all the gold went. And of course there is still much in British museums I understand. But, there was no organized archiology science at that time to do such work and he was flying high on his hopes and his own dreams. I felt best about him and his dream when I read his own words of course, and don't know how many books I would have to read to have a good understanding of Schliemann. And I must admit I have not read any books published since the 1960's about this . Fr

Justin
October 7, 2002 - 11:05 pm
I think it should be pointed out that Schliemann gave us the Lion Gate and the palaces of Mycenae and Tiryns and that if it were not for his language skills the clues of Pausanias would still be just clues. Nineteenth century scholars intended to ignore the directions of Pausanias because he was simply a tourist who came too late upon the scene. Today university classical programs encourage the reading of Pausanias' travels as a valuable secondary source.

I think it is also important to note that Schliemann was not interested in the treasure aspects of archeology. He was paying for the dig. In addition, he returned Priam's Treasure to Turkey from whence it was subsequently liberated. (You remember that term, Robby?) Most of the artifacts that came out of his digs wound up in museums.

One may question Schliemann's ethics and diging methods but not the overall value of the result. Had it not been for Schliemann and his gross approach men such as Evans would not have found need to refine the process. It is only through criticism that we improve on the work of our predecessors.

Bubble
October 8, 2002 - 01:34 am
It is often through unorthodox methods that the past is preserved, sometimes through greed, sometimes through ambition or for personal prestige.
Many scrolls have been saved when bought with personal funds and whisked away in personal possessions. Otherwise they would be cut up in small pieces and sold to various tourists thus being dissaminated world wide.
Some of this happened at Qumran, to part of the Dead Sea Scrolls I believe.



Maybe Troy would have been discovered later by someone else, but Schliemann did prove that one should take those old tales seriously. Biblical sites have also been unearthed following the Bible's clues.

robert b. iadeluca
October 8, 2002 - 03:25 am
"In 1876 Schliemann resolved to confirm that epic from another direction -- to show that Agamemnon too was real. Guided by Pausanias' classic description of Greece, he sank thirty-four shafts at Mycenae in the eastern Peloponesus. Turkist officials interrupted the work by claiming half of the material that he had found at Troy. Unwilling to let the precious 'Treasury of Priam' lie unseen in Turkey, Schliemann clandestinely dispatched the objects to the State Museum at Berlin, paid the Porte five times more damages than were required of him, and resumed his digging at Mycenae.

"Again he was rewarded, and when he saw his workers carrying up to him skeletons, pottery, jewelry, and golden masks, he telegraphed joyfully to the King of Greece that he had discovered the tombs of Atteus and Agamemnon. In 1884 he moved onto Tyrus and, guided again by Pausanias, unearthed the great palace and cyclopean walls that Homer had described."

Was he a good person or a bad person?

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
October 8, 2002 - 04:18 am
In The Greek Treasure by Irving Stone, the author described Schliemann just as history described him. He was a genius with the same faults and qualities all geniuses have. He was ruthless in his ambition to prove that Troy really existed by a relentless pursuit of his goal. His previous success in business provided him with the means to continue digging until he was satisfied that he had found it.

As Justin and Bubble said if Schliemann had not done what he did, the world would probably not have the pleasure of seeing that treasure and no matter where it is at the present time, at least it is safe in a museum where people who really appreciate it can see it.

Eloïse

MaryPage
October 8, 2002 - 06:21 am
I do not possess the expertise to form a judgment as to his accomplishments and how he approached his work. Obviously he was extremely bright. Some experts seem to feel he was responsible for destroying a great deal as he raced through his excavations. If this is the case, it is regrettable. I am full of revulsion and resentment over his going about purchasing a wife, listing what he required as though this human being were merely an appliance or piece of furniture.

Malryn (Mal)
October 8, 2002 - 06:47 am

Not only that, Mary Page, he kicked another wife out to get her.

From what I read it sounds to me as if Schliemann did anything he could to get what he wanted. This included lying and stealing. He was ruthless in his ambition to reach his goals. He also made discoveries that changed the world's perspective of history. I was a little amused to read that he built himself an estate in Athens, which he ruled like a Greek king. Only Greek was spoken there. Schliemann was buried in a mausoleum in Greece which he built himself. On it reads: For the hero Schliemann. I guess in this case, as in so many others, one has to look at the message and not the messenger.

What surprised me about Schliemann is the amount of time he spent in the United States. I can understand his going to California; his brother had been there, but Indianapolis? Why in the world did he spend time in Indianapolis? Apparently many of his papers are in the Eli Lilly Library there. (It's okay, folks, I lived in Indianapolis once.)

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
October 8, 2002 - 08:30 am
"Not only that,he kicked another wife out to get her. From what I read it sounds to me as if Schliemann did anything he could to get what he wanted. This included lying and stealing. He was ruthless in his ambition to reach his goals."

Unless I have misunderstood what I have been reading in The Story of Civilization for almost a year, isn't that exactly what almost all the "great" men have done for thousands of years?

Robby

tooki
October 8, 2002 - 08:33 am
Schliemann's purchase of his Greek wife is the first mention of the Greeks' treatment of women. Durant's chilling, "Here, in contrast to merry Crete, was estalished a lasting principle of Greek architecture - the separation of the women's quarter, or gynaeceum, from the chambers of the men," is to me an ominous harbinger, implying seperation in life as in architecture. (p.28)

robert b. iadeluca
October 8, 2002 - 08:36 am
Tooki, you're a bit ahead of the rest of us in the volume but you are apparently right about the Greek attitude toward women which I am sure we will encounter again and again.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 8, 2002 - 08:46 am
"Schliemann had the faults of his virtues, for his enthusiasm drove him into a reckless haste that destryoyed or confused many exhumed objects in order to reach at once the goal that he sought. The epics that had inspired his labors misled him into thinking that he had discovered Priam's hoard at Troy, and the tomb of Agamemnon at Mycenae. The world of scholarship doubted his reports, and the museums of England, Russia, and France long refused to accept as genuine the relics that he had found.

"He consoled himself with vigorous self-appreciation, and went on digging courageously until disease struck him down. In his last days he hesitated whether to pray to the God of Christianity or to the Zeus of classic Greece. He writes: "To Agamemnon Schliemann, best beloved of sons, greeting! I am very glad that you are going to study Plutarch, and have finished Senophon...I pray Zeus the Father and Pallas Athene that they will grant you a hundred returns of the day in health and happiness.'

"He died in 1890, worn out by climatic hardships, scholastic hostility, and the incessant fever of his dream."

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
October 8, 2002 - 10:53 am
Mal said: "Why in the world did he spend time in Indianapolis?" My guess is that is where he was making the money he needed for excavating, why else would he live there.

MaryPage - Purchasing a wife was common in those days if I remember and if Sofia has been so unhappy, she would not have spent years on her husband's digs even while pregnant. After his death, she still was very much involved in his Museum in Athens and she never remarried even if whe was still fairly young when she became a widow. As strange as it may seem for us today, arranged marriages were not always a failure.

OrchidLady
October 8, 2002 - 11:36 am
Eloise, and others have put it the right way, I think. In those days wives, and women in general were considered the property of some man, a husband or a relative. It didn't exist to the same extent in this country, but the attitude was there. Schliemann just reflected his age. And I don't know anything about the background of his wife, but if she was the child of a peasant, or a poor man, the marriage was probably a good deal for her, financially and in terms of prestige.

As for being good or bad, he was a brilliant man who did bad things, and good things. The bad things he did still contributed to the sum of our knowledge. The world of Troy and Agamemmnon was opened to us. A whole culture came to life.

Then, think of the "bad things" those thieving corporate executives of major companies did. They stole, they spent the money on insane pride - 20 million dollar homes, etc.- the ancient Greeks would have been stunned and unable to find a way to describe their greed and self- aggrandizement "hubris" doesn't do it justice.

And what did they leave behind? Thousands of people left financially bereft, a few actually left destitute. Schliemann isn't even in their league. Louise

robert b. iadeluca
October 8, 2002 - 12:13 pm
"These jewels were older by many centuries than Priam and Hecuba. These graves were not the tombs of the Atridae, but the ruins of an Aegean civilization, on the Greek mainland, as ancient as the Minoan Age in Crete. Unknowingly Schliemann had proved Horace's famous line -- vixerunt fortes ante Agamemnona -- 'there lived many brave men before Agamemnon.' Year by year, as Dorpfeld and Muller, Tsountas and Stamatakis, Waldstein and Wace dug more widely into the Peloponnesus, and still others explored Attica and the islands, Euboea and Boeotia, Phocis and Thessaly, the soil of Greece gave up the ghostly relics of a culture before history.

"Here, too, men had been lifted from barbarism to civilization by the passage from nomadic hunting to settled agriculture, by the replacement of stone tools with copper and bronze, by the conveniences of writing and the stimulus of trade.

"Under whatever sod we tread are the bones of men and women who also worked and loved, wrote songs and made beautiful things, but whose names and very being have been lost in the careless flow of time."

And so Durant, through the medium of discussing Schliemann, helps us to realize that even as there was a Minoan Age in Crete, so there was also a similar ancient Aegean civilization on the Greek mainland. Ancient Greek history did not begin with what is known as "The Heroic Age." He speaks of "being lifted from barbarism to civilization." What do you folks have to say to Voltaire's comment in the Heading above?

Have you ever paused to think of "the sod upon which you tread" and think of the bones of the "men and women who also worked and loved, wrote songs and made beautiful things," perhaps exactly where you are now standing?"

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 8, 2002 - 12:43 pm
"Civilization is always older than we think."

- - - Will Durant

Bubble
October 8, 2002 - 01:04 pm
We are very aware of that here in the Holy Land. We say that every stone has a history and the dust itself, if it could talk would tell of uncountable years. We know many names of towns and villages, but they must be few compared to those names lost from our memory.

Malryn (Mal)
October 8, 2002 - 01:42 pm
To get to where I live in North Carolina, you must turn off a highway onto a road called Mount Carmel Church Road. It's pretty, rolling countryside with houses here and there. There is a cemetery on the hill at the corner where you turn on a road to get to the quiet country street where my daughter and I live. Some of the gravestones are very old. It's a beautiful spot, just across from pastures of a horse farm. I've often thought about those old graves and the people resting in them. This was farmland once and quite a way from town by horse and buggy or a Model T Ford.

The small city in Massachusetts where I grew up is steeped in history. As children, my brother and I found Indian arrowheads and other things near the pond across the street from the house we lived in, reminders of those who came long ago before us. At one time, I often walked through the streets of Boston, Lexington and Concord; saw things I had read about, and actually felt the history around me.

I think we are part of these people, part of a heritage that goes back thousands and thousands of years. I mean, who really knows where we came from and where we have been?

Mal

kiwi lady
October 8, 2002 - 02:03 pm
Robbie I do think about those things you have mentioned. I absolutely love reading anything I can get my hands on about ordinary people who lived in ancient times or the pioneers of our fairly new country. It is just a pity there is not more information available about the everyday lives of people like you and I. I also like biographies and autobiographies from earlier centuries especially if they are about ordinary people who really in most cases were extraordiary people in my book.

Carolyn

Faithr
October 8, 2002 - 05:54 pm
Carolyn I think that is why I love to read Diaries and Journals written by people who in their time were "ordinary" but by the passage of time and the deeds they did they become extrodinary to us. I read a book of letters and notebooks kept by pioneer women traveling the Oregon trail. The author had a relative in her collection but then she spent a lot of time collecting the other items she included. I got it at the library and cant remember the name(Senior MOment) but it was one of the best reads I have had this year.

As I have said before I think people have been ordinary doing ordinary things to survive always. It is looking back on their achievements that gives them the extrodinary glamour they hold for me whether it is how to bake bread or how to make clocks.

I was looking at a group of young men outside the mini mart arguing about the meeting we are going to have soon in our local school regarding a change in our stop lights. This in an attempt to lightenen the traffic load at certain intersections, and these fellows were really getting into it. They were none over 20 and I thought, these may be our modern "Greek Philosophers", drinking cokes in front of the mini market after school and arguing politics and community projects .. faith

MaryPage
October 8, 2002 - 06:01 pm
Oh My! I just watched a documentary on PBS. NOVA. Tonight it featured an ancient town on the Euphrates called Zeugma. The thing is, it is now under water. Flooded when they put in a dam. Archaeologists rushed in to see what they could find before this happened, and the mosaics were among the most beautiful I have ever seen, anywhere, anytime. When this show was closing, and the waters were demolishing the ruins, I found myself with tears streaming down my cheeks. Check your local PBS stations for any and all NOVA listings in the future, and then check to see if it is this one. MAL, maybe you can find something on the web.

tooki
October 8, 2002 - 06:39 pm
Gardening always makes me think of what went before. I have had the good fortune to garden in a few places that hadn't been much tilled. It was'nt much that I found, but the pieces of toys, square nails, and tools without handles were exciting, and somehow sad. Now I garden on a small plot of ground and darn if I didn't find all the cement debris left over from building the house in 1929.

robert b. iadeluca
October 8, 2002 - 06:53 pm
"On a long low hill five miles east of Argos and a mile north of the sea, stood, in the fourteenth century before our era, the fortress-palace of Tiryns, Today one reaches its ruins by a pleasant ride from Argos or Nauplia, and finds them half lost amid quiet fields of corn and wheat. Then, after a little climb up prehistoric stone steps, the traveler stands before the cyclopean walls built, said Greek tradition, for the Argive prince Proteus, two centuries before the Trojan War.

"Even then the town itself was old, having been founded, said ancient memory, 'by the hero Tiryns, son of Argus of the hundred eyes, in the infancy of the world.' Proteus, the story went on, gave the palace to Perseus, who ruled Tiryns with the dusky Andromeda as his queen.

"The walls that protected the citadel rose from twenty-five to fifty feet in height, and were so thick that at several places they contained spacious galleries, vaulted and arched with immense overlapping horizontal slabs. Many of the stones still in place measure six feet in length by three in breadth and depth. The smallest of them, said Pausanias, 'could hardly be moved by a pair of mules.'

"Within the walls, behind a propylon or gateway that set a style for many an acropolis, lay a broad paved court bounded with colonnades. Around this, as at Cnossus, was a medley of rooms gathered about the megaron -- a hall of state thirteen hundred square feet in area, with a pavement of painted cement, and a ceiling supported by four columns enclosing a hearth.

"Here, in contrast to merry Crete, was established a lastng principle of Greek architecture -- the separation of the women's quarters, or gynacceum, from the chambers of the men. The king's room and the queen's room were built side by side, but, so far as the remains reveal, they were eremitcally sealed against intercommunication.

"Of this palace-castle Schliemann found only the ground plan, the column bases, and portions of the wall. At the foot of the hill were the remnants of stone or brick houses and bridges, and some fragments of archaic pottery. There, in prehistoric days, the town of Tiryns huddled for protection below the palace walls."

Note the term "prehistoric." We might pause to visualize how many centuries this took place even before the Heroic Age of Greece which is discussed in college philosophy and history classes.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
October 8, 2002 - 08:23 pm
For Mary Page and anyone interested.

ZEUGMA ARTIFACTS

ZEUGMA MOSAICS CLICK "PHOTOS" AT LEFT

Malryn (Mal)
October 8, 2002 - 08:39 pm
AERIAL VIEW FORTRESS-PALACE, TIRYNS

Bubble
October 9, 2002 - 02:19 am
Those mosaics are really something! So they are also underwater now, just like the marvels in Aswan, now under Nasser lake. There at least they saved part of the temple with the two stone colossus Of Ramses and his wife I think.



So much gets lost with the contigencies of modern life, producing electricity for example.

robert b. iadeluca
October 9, 2002 - 02:49 am
"Ten miles farther north, was Mycenae. Here, too, around a forbidding citadel, a town of several villages grew, housing a busy population of peasants, merchants, artisans, and slaves, who had the happiness of eluding history. Six hundred years later Homer called Mycenae 'a well-built city, broad-avenued and abounding in gold.' Despite a hundred despoiling generations, some part of these also cyclopean walls survive, to attest the immemorial cheapness of labor and uneasiness of kings.

"In a corner of the wall is the famous Lion Gate, where, carved upon a stone triangle over a massive lintel, two royal beasts, now worn and headless, dumbly stand guard over a grandeur that is gone.

"On the acropolis beyond are the ruins of the palace. Again, as at Tiryns and Cnossus, we can trace the divisions of throne room, altar room, storerooms, bathroom, and reception rooms. Here once were painted floors, columned porticoes, frescoed walls, and majestic flights of stairs."

Not being a historian, I ask myself (and others) the meanings of "acropolis" and "cyclopean wall." And as I read about the villages of peasants surrounding the fortress, the vision in my head is that of Medieval Europe. Any similarities? Differences? And the division of classes apparently was as apparent 5,000 years ago as it is now. I doubt seriously if any of the peasants had bathrooms or if any of the gold with which "Mycenae abounded" was in the houses in the villages.

Robby

Bubble
October 9, 2002 - 05:25 am
Acropolis is a Greek word for a citadel. Akros means highest and Polis is the word for town, like in metropolis (meter= mother, the mother-city of an ancient country)



Cyclopean is vast, giant, as if made by the Cyclops which were a race of fabled one eyed giants who lived in Sicily. Homer's Ulysses was their prisoner during his travels.



Thanks for the precision about the Lion Gate being in Mycena. My most successful batik depicted those massive stones, but when I drew them from memory I could not remember their location. Forty years later, I now know!

tooki
October 9, 2002 - 06:21 am
Were there lions in ancient Greece? I didn't think so. If not, where did the idea come from? Maybe they're griffins. Whatever they are, they are wonderful and famous. It appears that all the architectural schools in the country devote a chapter to them in their history courses. The surrounding space seems sacred. Am I supposed to post sites that I've visited? There are many; the quality of the illustrations furnished varies.

Malryn (Mal)
October 9, 2002 - 06:44 am
LION GATE MYCENAE



DETAIL RELIEF LION GATE

PICTURES MYCENAE, TIRYN

robert b. iadeluca
October 9, 2002 - 07:15 am
Tooki:--If you are talking about giving us links, by all means post sites that you have visited, assuming they refer to the topic we are currently discussing. Please remember that if you are giving us links, give due credit to the source of the links.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 9, 2002 - 07:24 am
In Mal's link to "Pictures Mycanae, Tiryn", when you click onto the photo (and thereby enlarge it) with the woman standing next to the wall, the size of the stones become obvious, especially the gigantic one next to which she is standing. Just as with the Egyptian pyramids, we wonder how they were able to move stones which obviously weigh tons.

Robby

Bubble
October 9, 2002 - 08:01 am
That one needed a Cyclop to move it! The base of the wailing wall in Jerusalem also has those incredibly big blocks fitting one with another. How did they managed to cut them? You saw how the left side of the huge one, where that woman is standing, has like a step cut in it and the top one fits there.

Lady C
October 9, 2002 - 12:55 pm
I was fortunate enough to catch the PBS offering of the mosaics at Zeugma in Turkey. It was a real suspense story, where they were reduced to using bulldozers instead of the usual grain by grain method of uncovering such a rarity. They took the chance of destroying some precious finds or having everything flooded before they could make any discovery at all and it paid off splendidly. Most interesting was the way they were able to save some of them (the story of Pasiphae and the bull, Daedelus, the labrynth). They were the most beautiful and brilliantly colored I have ever seen, no comparison to those at Pompeii. There were pictures of others that could not be saved in the given time frame and they were just as lovely. They were Roman, not Greek.

Robby: Where are we in the reading? I just keep on reading but can't get any clues from the posts. Help!

Claudia

MaryPage
October 9, 2002 - 02:17 pm
Thank you so much, MAL, for finding those pictures of the Zeugma mosaics. ROBBY, I know we are a long way from getting to those only 2,000 year old mosaics, but I had to mention the program because I know for a fact that everyone here would love it. The mosaics are the most beautiful (I guess I should say "were") I can remember seeing. Hank Evans, who is one of your lurkers, Robby, but unfortunately is not at all well and rarely posts, e-mailed me that she caught that NOVA documentary and she had tears at the end as well.

Will take this opportunity to thank you again, MAL, for all of the wonderful links. Also want to crow over great largess from my son: he has gifted me with ALL of the National Geographic maps to date! On 8 CD-roms for my computer! He is going to install them for me tonight. National Geographic has wonderful maps of Ancient Greece!

robert b. iadeluca
October 9, 2002 - 04:58 pm
Claudia:--The "clue" is the title above the four GREEN quotes. As you know from a posting a short time ago, we are in Chapter II entitled "Before Agamemnon." Each section after that has a title. The first section was "Schliemann." We are now in the section entitled "In the Palaces of the Kings" as indicated above. Keep your eye on the title above the GREEN quotes and watch them change periodically.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 9, 2002 - 05:03 pm
Take care of yourself, Hank, and give us a brief post whenever you feel well enough.

Robby

Mary W
October 9, 2002 - 09:04 pm
ROBBY: Thank you a bunch for your good wishes. It was great for my morale.

This is a fascinating discussion and I keep up with the posts and all the marvelous links of Mal (the link guru) and the links of all others as well.

Keep it up. Hank

Justin
October 9, 2002 - 10:34 pm
"Pelasgi" is a familiar term. I think we last heard it as "the people of the Sea". I can't recall whether they displaced Mesopotamians or others. Does anyone here remember these "People of the Sea"?

Justin
October 9, 2002 - 11:00 pm
Those who settled at Mycenae from 1900 BCE on were Greek speaking invaders. They were pirates to the Minoans who kept them away from Crete with their shipping power. Eventually, the Mycenaeans, saw the light, participated in honest Minoan trade, cleared the Aegean of other pirates and took over Crete. By 1100 BCE Mycenae is gone and the Dorians have begun their invasion.

The Minoans lasted 1500 years. The Mycenaeans lasted 800 years. The Egyptians lasted 3000 years and if the current breed can be included Egpyt lasted 5000 years. China has lasted 5000 years. India similarly. Those of us who see civilizations coming and going in a few centuries have only to examine these examples to realize that the U.S. and a European Union could last for millennia.

robert b. iadeluca
October 10, 2002 - 04:40 am
When we were taking part in Our Oriental Heritage, we had a considerable number of "lurkers" and I would ask that they would at least come in to say a brief "hi." And sure enough, from time to time we would have a HI! I know for a fact that we have lurkers here as well in The Life of Greece so my invitation remains. Please come in occasionally and say HI! We like to know that you are there.

Hank (Mary), glad to hear from you. You have given Mal the new title -- Link Guru! She certainly is and we appreciate the depth of understanding that she gives to our forum with the material that she adds on to Durant's words.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 10, 2002 - 05:07 am
"We do not know how this civilization began, nor what people it was that built towns not only at Mycenae and Tiryns but at Sparta, Amyclae, Aegina, Eleusis, Chaeronea, Orchomenos, and Delphi. Probably, like most nations, it was already composite in stock and heritage. Greece was as diverse in blood before the Dorian invasion (1100 B.C.) as England before the Norman Conquest. So far as we can guess, the Mycenaeans were akin to the Phrygians and Carians of Asia Minor, and to the Minoans of Crete.

"The lions of Mycenae have a Mesopotamian countenance. This ancient motif probably came through Assyria and Phrygia to Greece. Greek tradition called the Mycenaeans 'Pelasgi' (possibly meaning People of the Sea - pelagos) and pictured them as coming down from Thrace and Thesaly into Attica and the Peloponnesus in a past so distant that the Greeks termed them autochthonoi -- aborigines. Herodotus accepted this account, and ascribed the Olympian gods to a Pelasgic origin, but 'he could not say with any certainty what the language of the Pelasgi was.' No more can we.

"Doubtless these autochthonoi were themselves late-comers into a land that had suffered cultivation since neolithic days. There are no aborigines. In their turn they too were overrun. In the later years of Mycenaean history, toward 1600, we find many indications of a cultural-commercial, if not a military-political, conquest of the Peloponnesus by the products or emigrants of Crete.

The palaces at Tiryns and Mycenae, except for the gymnaceum, were designed and decorated in the Minoan manner. Cretan vases and styles reached into Aegina, Chalcis, and Thebes. Mycenaean ladies and goddesses adopted the charming fashions of Crete, and the art revealed in the later shaft graves is unmistakably Minoan.

"Apparently it was this stimulating contact with a higher culture that lifted Mycenae to the peak of its civilization."

Durant tells us that 'there are no aborigines.' We think of the Greek civilization in the time of Plato and Socrates and Aristotle as ancient. But Herodotus (himself ancient to us) spoke of the Pelasgi as being part of a "distant past." And Durant says these folks in the "distant past" were probably "late-comers" to an area which already was populated by people either from Asia Minor or from the North, possibly from neolithic days.

Which means, as Durant reminds us, that we have no idea of the beginnings of Sparta, Delphi, and other cities that we have read about in our school days.

How far back is ancient?

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
October 10, 2002 - 06:34 am
I can't say I am a lurker all the time, but only sometimes. Thanks for keeping L of G so interesting everyone.

MaryPage
October 10, 2002 - 06:39 am
Making it up as I go along and paying no heed to what the rule may be, I count "ancient" as from recorded history to 1 A.D. About 6,000 years of ancient? About.

Earlier than that is prehistoric and later is our era, the latter comprising 2002 years thus far!

tooki
October 10, 2002 - 08:55 am
This from a book on mythology: "The name Pelasgians was a general one, like that of Saxons, Franks, or Alemanni, and each of the Pelasgian tribes had also one peculiar to itself." Another view: "There are various names affirmed to designate the ante-Hellenic inhabitants of many parts of Greece - the Pelasgi, the Leleges, the Kuretes, the Kaukones, the Aones, the Temmikes, the Hyantes, the Telchines, the Boeotian Thracians, the Teleboae, the Ephyri, the Phlegyae, &c."

Whew! Typing was hard enough; I wouldn't have liked to say it.

robert b. iadeluca
October 10, 2002 - 09:09 am
"Life on the mainland was a little nearer to the hunting stage than in Crete. The bones of deer, wild boars, goats, sheep, hares, oxen, and pigs among the Mycenaean leavings -- not to speak of fishbones and marine shells -- indicate an appetite already Homeric, and unfriendly to the Cretan waist. Here and there the relics reveal the strange contemporaneity of 'ancient' and 'modern' modes -- obsidian arrowheads lying beside a hollow bronze drill apparently used in boring dowel holes into stones.

"Industry was less advanced than in Crete. There are no signs on the mainland of such industrial centers as Gournia. Trade grew slowly, for the seas were troubled with pirates, including the Mycenaeans. The kings of Mycenae and Tiryns had Cretan artists engrave for them, on their vases and rings, a proud record of their achievements in piracy. To protect themselves against other pirates they built their cities inland, far enough from the sea to guard against sudden attck, close enough to take readily to their ships.

"Lying on the road from the Argolic Gulf to the Isthmus of Corinth, Tiryns and Mycenae were well situated both to plunder traders with feudal tolls, and to set out occasionally on buccaneering raids. Seeing Crete grow rich on orderly trade, Mycenae learned that piracy -- like its civilized offspring, tariff dues -- can strangle commerce and internationalize poverty. It reformed, and allowed piracy to subside into trade.

"By 1400 its mercantile fleet was strong enough to defy the sea power of Crete. It refused to ship its Africa-bound goods across the island, but sent them directly to Egypt. Possibly this was the cause, or result, or a war that ended in the destruction of the Cretan citadels."

My analysis here may be way off but I see the relationship of the highly civilized Cretans to the "hunting stage" Mycenaeans on the mainland similar to the "civilized" European explorers and the "hunting stage" American Indians. As Durant says, they were contemporary but extremely different. American Indian "industry" was much less advanced. Cretan artists did the engraving for the Mainlanders. Europeans taught the indians their own skills.

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
October 10, 2002 - 09:58 am
"...piracy -- like its civilized offspring, tariff dues -- can strangle commerce and internationalize poverty. It reformed, and allowed piracy to subside into trade."

The refinement of piracy which is legally allowed to thrive in our own civilization is so flagrant and still cannot be sopped.

Bubble
October 10, 2002 - 10:45 am
Europeans taught their own skills, never bothering to see if there were other skills to be learned from those "less advanced" people. Much was lost in the process, such as the knowledge of local plants. The same happened in Africa.

North Star
October 10, 2002 - 01:09 pm
Some American Indians were hunter gatherers but others such as the Maya had civilizations that rivaled the cultures of Babylon and Egypt. The Aztecs were just short of figuring out the technology of constructing arches when they were interrupted by 'civilized' Europeans.

People in Franklin's expedition in the north died because they wouldn't listen to the 'savage' Inuit who told them how to dress for the climate. Such arrogance.

kiwi lady
October 10, 2002 - 04:52 pm
One poster says USA and EEC could last for thousands of years. With the gobbling up of fossil fuels comes the pollution from these fuels causing a greenhouse effect. Then there are the weapons of mass destruction available around the globe. Climactic changes will mean more famines more bushfires etc etc. Water will become scarce. It is very possible some of the science fiction movies put out in recent years will become reality. Unless we mend our ways we will destroy this civilization ourselves.

Carolyn

robert b. iadeluca
October 10, 2002 - 05:07 pm
Durant continues:--"The wealth that grew from this trade was not accompanied by any commensurate culture visible in the remains. At Tiryns and Thebes some jars have been found bearing unintelligible characters, but no clay tablets, or inscriptions, or documents have been discovered. Probably when Mycenae decided to be literate, it used perishable writing materials, as the Cretans did in their final period. Nothing has been preserved.

"In art the Mycenaeans followed Cretan models, and so faithfully that archeology suspects them of importing their major artists from Crete. But after Cretan art declined, painting flourished vigorously on the mainland.

"The decorative designs of borders and cornices are of the first order, and persist into classic Greece, while the surviving frescoes indicate a keen feeling for moving life. The Ladies in the Box are splended dowagers, who might adorn any opera promenade today and be in full fashion of coiffure and gowns. They are more alive than the stiffly conscious Ladies in the Chariot, who are out for an afternoon drive in the park.

"Better still is the Boar Hunt, a fresco from Tiryns. The boar and the flowers are unconvincingly conventional, the incredibly pink hounds are disfigured with stylized spots of scarlet, black or blue, and the hind quarters of the plunging boar taper away in the likeness of some high-heeled maiden falling from her palace bower. Nevertheless the chase is real, the boar is desperate, the dogs are in fast flight through the air, and man, the most sentimental and terrible of all beasts of prey, stands ready with his murderous spear.

"One may suspect from such samples the active and physical life of the Mycenaeans, the proud beauty of their women, the vivid adornment of their palaces."

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
October 10, 2002 - 06:38 pm
Below is a link to an incredible page I found while searching for Ladies in the Box. There are statuary, frescoes, other artwork from Ancient Egypt, Mesopotamia, Minoan Crete, Mycenae, the Etruscans, the Romans, and I can't remember what. Much of the art is of women and women's activities. Be patient. It's a huge page of images and a long download, but worth every second of waiting. Either click the links at the top, or scroll down the page.

ARTWORKS

robert b. iadeluca
October 11, 2002 - 03:19 am
Mal:--The interesting part of that link, to me, was that as you gradually scroll down from Pre-historic, to Egypt, to Minoan, to Mycenaean, etc. you could see the "progress of mankind."

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
October 11, 2002 - 05:30 am
Very interesting link Mal it helps to visualize the epochs we have gone through in S of C. Thanks.

Malryn (Mal)
October 11, 2002 - 07:01 am
What I like about the artwork on that web page is that it shows representations of what people were doing in ordinary life. Imagine, the Venus of Willendorff was made in 30, 000-25,000 BCE. And we think we're so smart in the year 2002 CE.

An aside: - I'm so happy Jimmy Carter has won the Nobel Peace Prize. His work for Habitat for Humanity alone without any of the other things he has done makes him very deserving of this honor, in my opinion.

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
October 11, 2002 - 07:32 am
Women in Chariot, Tiryns



Mycenean warrior in boars tusk helmet



Entrance to Thalos tomb

Persian
October 11, 2002 - 09:47 am
Hope I'm still welcome here. Haven't posted in a long time, but have read along with your posts. I spent a most enjoyable evening last night with 16 SN folks who are in Washington DC for the National Book Festival. I met them at Phillips restaurant on the Washington waterfront. It was a lovely time with good conversation and friendship. As I left the restaurant to come home, the others continued their Evening Tour of Washington by starlight. It was a pleasure to meet so many of the people with whom I have interacted through the SN discussions.

ROBBY - you were missed ENORMOUSLY!

robert b. iadeluca
October 11, 2002 - 12:08 pm
Silly question! Are you welcome here? You were one of our stalwarts in Our Oriental Heritage and I am sure that we will hearing many of your comments in The Life of Greece.

Sorry I missed the Bookfest but, very simply, I can't be in two places simultaneously.

Robby

OrchidLady
October 11, 2002 - 01:13 pm
NORTH STAR, I'm not too impressed by fact that the Aztecs were close to figuring out the construction of the arch, until the "civilized" Europeans interfered.

The "civilized" Europeans also interfered with their murdering thousands of people (one estimate was about 10K a year) as sacrifice to their gods. They tied the victim to the altar at the top of their pyramid structures, and cut his heart out. The Maya also had human sacrifice altho not on as great a scale. One of them, I think the Aztecs, but am not sure, had a saying on some of their works that "the tears of a child are pleasing to the gods". One of the early Franciscan priests who came over with the conquistadores kept a diary (don't remember his name, my memory for names is pretty bad) and he wrote about climbing to the top of one of the pramids and entering the little room at the top - he noted that it was two toned in color, the bottom half was dark with blood, heavily coating it. And it smelled the way you would expect it to smell.

I think I'll pass on the "glories of their culture." Louise

MaryPage
October 11, 2002 - 01:51 pm
Ha! Thanks to MAL I have my new word for the day: "sistrum!" I could play one of those! Looks like fun, too. Wonder what it sounded like.

The HISTORY CHANNEL is doing a one hour documentary at eleven p.m. Eastern time tonight on "Sex in Ancient Civilizations." I have not seen this, so I plan to watch it. Haven't a clue as to whether or not it contains pornography, so do not take this as a recommendation. It is just an announcement.

MaggieG
October 11, 2002 - 03:15 pm
Robby - Thank you for inviting me to join this discussion. I'm not sure I can be an active participant, but I've subscribed.

Mal - Thanks for the links to all the glorious art works! It helps to make the transition from the everyday world into this discussion. I do not have the Durant book and have not studied this era for years and years!

Maggie

Justin
October 11, 2002 - 04:37 pm
Mal's link to Art artifacts suggests that the sources were in some sort of sequence, some declining time line. Durant fosters that concept as well. However, it is important, I think, to be aware that Egypt, Minoa, and Mycenae, were coexistant for at least 500 years. They traded with one another. These people were also contemporary with Mesopotamians. China and India were also alive and well at this time. We are not looking at "progress" in art. We are examining works which may have been influenced by other contemporary societies as a result of trade and piracy.

robert b. iadeluca
October 11, 2002 - 05:53 pm
Maggie:--Welcome to our family here! Don't worry about not having the book. Not every participant here has the volume. We have a very simple system. In the Heading you will see four GREEN quotes under a title. This title and the four quotes are changed periodically as we move through the book. Check the quotes regularly. Doing this plus reading the comments by others will help you to keep moving along the text at the same pace as the rest of us.

Most of us do not pretend to be experts. Just give your opinions as we move along and you will find yourself being a comfortable participant.

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
October 11, 2002 - 06:02 pm
Persian, so happy to see you back with us. I missed you.

Maggie, you are most welcomed and I look forward to hearing more from you.

MaryPage - The only time I heard the word 'sistre' is in the opera Carmen, the Habanera I think. Are they the same as cymbals?

Justin - A very important element and I thought that there was a sequence in time. Thanks for bringing that up.

Louise - About the Aztecs, can we say that any nation has ever been totally 'civilized'.

Eloïse

robert b. iadeluca
October 11, 2002 - 06:11 pm
Durant continues:--

"The unquestioned masterpieces of Mycenaean art were found neither at Tiryns nor at Mycenae but in a tomb at Vaphio, near Sparta, where a minor prince once emulated the magnificence of the northern kings. Here, amid another treasure of jewelry, were two thin cups of beaten gold, simply formed and yet worked with the loving patience of all great art. The craftsmanship is so like the best Minoan that most students are inclined to attribute these cups to some Cretan Cellini. But it would be a pity to deprive the Mycenaean culture of its most perfect memorials.

"The subject -- the snaring and taming of a bull -- seems characteristically Cretan. Yet the frequency with which such scenes are engraved upon Mycenaean rings and seals or painted upon the palace walls shows that the bull sport was as popular on the mainland as on the island. One one of the cups the bull is caught in a net of heavy rope. His mouth and nostrils gape with breathless anger and fatigue as he struggles to get free and imprisons himself the more. On the other side a second bull gallops off in terror, and a third charges at a cowboy who catches it bravely by the horns. On the companion cup the captured bull is being led away. As we turn the vessel around we see him already reconciled to the restraints of civilization, and engaged, as Evans puts it, in 'amorous conversation' with a cow.

"Many centures were to pass before such skillful work would appear again in Greece."

Bit by bit we see Durant drawing us toward the mainland away from Crete.

Robby

OrchidLady
October 11, 2002 - 06:13 pm
ELOISE, going by the definition on the first page of this discussion, I think various nations have achieved a higher degree of civilization than others. I would consider the Western European nations as more civilized than the pre-colombian ones of the new world. Economic well being for its citizens, if not available to all, unfortunately, at least for the majority, and moral traditions are important elements to be considered in judging the degree of civilization. And for me at least, they are much, much more important that artistic achievements - beautiful though these achievements may be. Louise

Elizabeth N
October 11, 2002 - 06:24 pm
I'm glad you're back Persian as I missed your "messages."

MaggieG
October 11, 2002 - 06:36 pm
Robby and Eloise - Thank you for the nice welcome. I've no doubt I'll be comfortable here, what with good SeniorNet folk who love books. It doesn't get much better than that!

Maggie

Justin
October 11, 2002 - 06:37 pm
There are some issues not very clear to me in this early Greek experience. There was a period when Greek was not spoken on the mainland. Where did the Greek speakers come from? Neither the Minoans nor the Helladics spoke Greek. The Acheans and the Mycenaens spoke Greek. Are these the first Greek speakers, and if so, where did they come from? A millennium later the Dorians appear and they are Greek speakers. It is said they came from the "north", from the Balkans.More specifically, they came from Macedonia, Serbia, Montenegro, and Albania. But who spoke Greek in the Balkans? The Macedonians perhaps. But not the Albanians nor the Serbians. Where did this Greek language come from? The Pelasgians of Ionia were barbarian. Herodotus said they were non Helenic. They spoke a language he could not understand. Perhaps in the Heroic Period chapters Durant will answer these questions.

Justin
October 11, 2002 - 06:57 pm
Maggie; Nice to have you in this discussion. If you enjoy talking about Greece in the Early, Classical, and Hellenic periods you will be very comfortable here. Durant is a careful historian but we don't mind disagreeing with him even if we are not always sure of our ground.

Mahlia: I have missed your comments. Your background helps to keep this conversation on a secure footing.

robert b. iadeluca
October 11, 2002 - 08:14 pm
Justin:--How about this LINK to the origin of the Greek language?

Robby

MaryPage
October 12, 2002 - 07:38 am
ELOISE, there was a picture of a "sistrum" from ancient Egypt in one of the last of MAL's links; the one that had so many, many treasures from ancient days including the Minoan Ladies in Blue fresco. I was intrigued with it and wondered what it was used for. A peek into one of my many dictioneries told me: "an ancient Egyptian percussion instrument consisting of a looped metal frame set in a handle and fitted with loose crossbars that rattle when shaken." Well, it looks more like an open rattle than anything else I can think of to compare it with. Haven't a clue as to how it sounds. Do you suppose the museum that displays it would allow me to go there and hold it and rattle it, all in the name of gaining knowledge? No? I don't think so, either.

Lovely to see you here, MAGGIE!

MaggieG
October 12, 2002 - 08:59 am
Justin and MaryPage - Thank you for the welcome. -Maggie

robert b. iadeluca
October 12, 2002 - 10:03 am
"After the fall of Cnossus, Mycenae prospered as never before. The rising wealth of the 'Shaft Grave Dynasty' raised great palaces upon the hills of Mycenae and Tiryns. Mycenaean art took on a character of its own, and captured the markets of the Aegean.

"Now the commerce of the mainland princes reached eastward into Cyprus and Syria, southward through the Cyclades to Egypt, westward through Italy to Spain, northward through Bocotia and Thessaly to the Danube, and found itself balked only at Troy.

"Like Rome absorbing and disseminating the civilization of Hellas, so Mycenae, won by the culture of dying Crete, spread the Mycenaean phase of that culture throughout the Mediterranean world."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 12, 2002 - 10:14 am
Here is a MAP OF THE MYCENAEAN CIVILIZATION. We have spent some time discussing Crete and part of the mainland. Are you able to identify any of the dots on the map?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 12, 2002 - 10:19 am
Here is the SAME MAP WITH CODES to help you identify the cities you didn't know.

Note Troy which we are about to discuss.

Robby

tooki
October 12, 2002 - 01:52 pm
Before we leave Mycena I need to know if anyone besides Durant thinks the mask looks like a cat. I don't. Other views?

robert b. iadeluca
October 12, 2002 - 02:07 pm
I hope you folks won't think the link I am giving you is too far off topic. It is not about Ancient Greece at all. But we recently left Asia and by way of Crete have begun to enter Europe. I am giving you a link to an article published in the New York Times Magazine section entitled WHAT IS A EUROPEAN.

As I read it, my thoughts kept coming back to all the discussions we have been having in The Story of Civilization. It spoke about the origin of Europe. It spoke about the various civilizations. It spoke about the Mediterranean nations. It spoke about differences and similarities. Although that specific term wasn't used, it made me think of the Progress of Mankind.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 12, 2002 - 02:12 pm
Tooki:--Where can I go to see that mask?

Robby

tooki
October 12, 2002 - 02:27 pm
I thought I was making progress on links. Sigh! It worked for e-mail. Anyway: http://hartzler.org/cc307/mycenaean/index/html You then must scroll down to "Death Mask of Agamemnon." There is also a black and white in the text, but it's not very good.

I'll keep working at links. I'm sure to get closure soon.

Malryn (Mal)
October 12, 2002 - 02:43 pm
I am unable to access a page through Tooki's link.

Agamemnon's Death Mask, said to be found by Schliemann

robert b. iadeluca
October 12, 2002 - 02:54 pm
Tooki:--I don't know about other's cats, but the mask doesn't look like my cat!

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
October 12, 2002 - 05:13 pm
The Greek language "Its history is long and rich and spans a period of 34 centuries from the 14th century BC to date (longer than any other language of Indo-European descent)." I seems to be so exact that several languages are rooted in it and I am wondering why it has survived the test of time without too much distortion. I am thinking of the French language which has suffered so much change in the last millineum and is still changing. Is it because it is still a fairly new language compared to Greek?

MaryPage - I am still thinking of the sistrum mentioned in the opera Carmen. Are they still using that instrument in Spain?

Robby - That link from the NYT was extremely interesting to me because when I go to Europe I feel a cultural shock and when the author mentioned about American movies dubbed into French it feels robotic and the characters don't fit the words that are dubbed. But I think with time and Europeans who move easily from one country to another, intermarry and use a common language, they will feel more united than before the European Union.

I am glad Agamemnon doesn't look like anyone I know.

Eloïse

moxiect
October 12, 2002 - 07:49 pm
Hi Robby!

I finally have caught up to all the posts. Course I have been sidetracked by visiting all the interesting links provided by Mal! My computer died a few weeks ago and had to go out to techs to be fixed. It has taken me all this time to catch up. While my computer was not available I began reading Edith Hamilton's Mythology, which I found very interesting because of the ancient culture is woven into the myths.

Justin
October 12, 2002 - 10:04 pm
Robby; thank you for the link about Greek language. Between the time of the Helladics ( 3000 to 2000 BCE) who did not speak Greek and the Mycenaens who did speak Greek (1900 to 1100BCE)we have a group of Greek speaking Acheans who invaded beginning in 1900 BCE. The Acheans appear to be the first Greek speakers. Where did they come from and do those they left behind still speak Greek.

We know the alphabet came from the Phoenicians but not much about the origin of the Greek language except to say it came from the Balkans, which is a lot like saying it came from Greece because Greece is a Balkan state. Maybe we don't know these things yet. Perhaps Durant will tell us more in subsequent chapters.

robert b. iadeluca
October 13, 2002 - 05:28 am
Moxi:--I am glad you have allowed yourself to be "sidetracked" by Mal's links as we consider the information she gives us in that fashion an enrichment of this discussion. Putting it another way, we get more out of it than had we been just reading the volume itself. Please take as much time as you wish pausing and examining in detail the pictures, maps, etc. that are presented to you through links.

Justin:--You used the term Balkans and I'm glad you did because some people (certainly myself) know exceedingly little about the Balkan states and its proximity to the Near East. The Balkans are considered a part of Europe yet have much Asiatic influence. We are seeing this now as we cross over to the Greek Mainland, having recently left Asia. And Crete? Is that Asia or Europe?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 13, 2002 - 05:45 am
Although the nations we now know didn't exist in ancient times, here is a MAP showing what we now call the Balkans and where Greece fits in. Nearby is Turkey which, if I understand correctly, is partly in Europe and partly in Asia.

Robby

OrchidLady
October 13, 2002 - 06:27 am
thanks for the map, Robbie. I especially enjoyed it, as I've been looking for a map/maps of the world, geopolitical ones, if that's the right word, which show both the physical attributes of an area, and its political "marks" -borders, capitol, etc. I haven't seen one around, that's a price I can afford - so far. And I'd didn't have a clear idea of what constituted the Balkan states. Louise

robert b. iadeluca
October 13, 2002 - 06:28 am
If, as I strongly recommend, you regularly check the changes in the GREEN quotes in the Heading, you have already seen that magic word -- TROY! That word which, in either myth or history, is bandied about in high school and college classes. Let us see what Durant has to say.

"Between the Greek mainland and Crete 220 islands dot the Aegean, forming a circle around Delos, and therefore called the Cyclades. Most of them are rugged and barren, precarious mountain survivals of a land half drowned in the seas but some were rich enough in marble or metal to be already busy and civilized.

"In 1896 the British School of Athens dug into the soil of Melos at Phylakopi and found tools, weapons, and pottery remarkably akin, age by age, to the Minoan. A like research in other islands has built up a prehistoric picture of the Cyclades conforming in time and character, though never comparable in artistic excellence, with the bioscope of Crete.

"The Cyclades were cramped for land, totaling less than a thousand square miles among them, and proved, like classic Greece, incapable of uniting under one political power. By the seventeenth century B.C. the little isles had passed in government and art, even, here and there, in language and writing, under Cretan domination. Then, in the final period (1400-1200), the imports from Crete fell away, and the islands increasingly took their pottery and their styles from Mycenae.

"Moving eastward into the Sporades (Scattered) Islands, we find in Rhodes another prehistoric culture of the simpler Aegean type. In Cyprus the rich deposits of copper that gave the island its name brought it a measure of wealth throughout the Bronze Age (1400-1200), but its wares remained crude and undistinguished before the coming of Cretan influence. Its population, predominatly Asiatic, used a syllabic script akin to the Minoan, and worshiped a goddess apparently descended from the Semitic Ishtar, and destined to become the Aphrodite of the Greeks.

"After 1500 the metal industry of the island developed rapidly. The mines, owned by the royal government, exported copper to Egypt, Crete, and Greece. The foundry at Enkomi made famous daggers, and the potters sold their globular bowls from Egypt to Troy. The forests were cut into timber, and cypress from Cyprus began to compete with the cedars of Lebanon.

In the thirteenth century Mycenaean colonists founded the colonies that were to become the Greek cities of Paphos, sacred to Aphrodite, and Citium, birthplace of the Stoic Zeno, and Cyprian Salamis, where Solon paused in his wanderings to replace chaos with law."

Lots of stuff going on here! Lots of trading -- lots of moving around -- lots of industry -- lots of borowing of one civilization from another -- lots of mixture of Asiatic and what was to become European culture. Or to use a term which I hear so much in the travelogue books nowadays but now becomes meaningful to me in the context of history -- lots of island hopping.

Your reactions, please?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
October 13, 2002 - 08:07 am
Below is a link to a map of Ancient Troy. On this map, Troy is ILIUM TROIA and is located just below CYZICUS. Note how close Troy is to Constantinople.

ANCIENT TROY MAP

robert b. iadeluca
October 13, 2002 - 08:28 am
And, as the map shows, Troy was in "Asia" and Constantinople is in "Europe." I am wondering who chose the dividing line. Who decided what is Europe and what is Asia?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 13, 2002 - 08:33 am
Here is a MAP OF THE AEGEAN ISLANDS. I assume that everything portrayed in white is Europe (at least in our era) and everything dark is Asia.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
October 13, 2002 - 08:38 am
Below is an article with illustrations about copper in Ancient Greece. This is from the Cesnola Collection in the Semitic Museum at Harvard. Click the links under the illustration to see more.

COPPER ANCIENT GREECE

MaryPage
October 13, 2002 - 12:11 pm
ROBBY, or anyone else in the D.C. area, your local PBS channel, WETA on channel 26, is showing NOVA at five o'clock this afternoon; a repeat of the documentary about the ancient frescoes that were drowned a couple of years ago. Absolutely unbelievably gorgeous frescoes.

Lady C
October 13, 2002 - 02:14 pm
ROBBY: I loved the maps and info about the Balkans, a longstnding interest of mine. It took ages on my slow printer but I printed all thirty two pages of the modern peoples. Also, because I don't pay enough attention to your heading, I've been reading too far ahead and have to backtrack.

MALRYN: Your map is a godsend, but my printer got so tired with printing Robby's stuff it refused to print your map.

These maps and preipheral info are so great and give a clearer picture of what we're reading. I've printed a lot of stuff and put it in a folder which I keep near the book on the breakfast table. It keeps the place names from being just names. Thank you.

robert b. iadeluca
October 13, 2002 - 02:32 pm
Lady C:--You are obviously a dedicated participant in this forum -- printing out 32 pages, keeping info in a folder, placing it on the breakfast table, etc!! I am pleased to know that this discussion group is an integral part of your life.

As for "Robby's stuff," please keep in mind that most of what I present are the words of Durant and it is his book and his thoughts that we are examining.

You are right in checking the GREEN quotes in the Heading regularly. This is what keeps us together in each section of the book -- whether we have the book or not. The title over the quotes are the names of the sections in each chapter.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 13, 2002 - 02:53 pm
By all means click onto this link of the Sporades (Scattered) Islands that Durant described to us. Scroll down slowly. Allow yourself to enjoy the almost unbearable beauty of the beaches and the inland portion of the islands. In your mind, imagine how the Ancient Greeks spent their time on these islands.

Continue to scroll toward the bottom and you will find a map which gives a very clear picture of these islands (showing why they are named "Scattered") and their geographical relationship to Greece. Note also the Cyclades Islands and Crete.

Robby

mssuzy
October 13, 2002 - 09:36 pm
Hello there! What page are you on? What chapter? Tomorrow - oops, today - is a day off and after I finish the boring stuff like cleaning I will wake up my book that has been asleep under a thick layer of dust and dive into the Aegean Sea. I love Cretan art and the myth of the Minotaur and The thread of Arianne (in French) and the beautiful mosaics of the palace, and the blue and gold all over ...Crete was so rich and peaceful and so beautiful... What catclysm destroyed this jewel? A tidal wave, an earthquake? On these grey Washington Oct. days, it wonderful to travel to Crete, especially from a comfortable armchair. A bientot

Justin
October 13, 2002 - 09:38 pm
Istambul is the only city in the world residing in two continents. A bridge across the Golden Horn connects the two continents and the two parts of the city. The boundary between continents is established naturally , in this case by the Golden Horn. Each is a separate and distinct land mass , just as North America is a separate land mass form South America. They are separated by the Panama Canal which is a man drawn boundary. North America is a land mass separated from Asia by the Siberian Straits. The Greek Islands are part of Europe. Troy is on the Asian Continent.

The Balkans in todays terminology includes Greece, Albania, All of what used to be Yugoslavia, Rumania, Bulgaria, and European Turkey. The Balkan countries are all part of the Balkan peninsula.

Bubble
October 14, 2002 - 12:49 am
Oh to dream about the past on Koukounari's sands in dolce farniente!

Éloïse De Pelteau
October 14, 2002 - 01:50 am
Mssuzy Bonjour, Arn't those links wonderful? I can just picture a nice vacation away from our Canadien winter on the shores of a Greek island. I would not want to come back home!!! for a while.

Mal and Robby, if you don't mind, I will borrow some of your links for 'Les Pérégrines' book discussion. I came upon this site which shows a different view of Greece.

CARTE DE LA GRECE ANTIQUE

Eloïse

robert b. iadeluca
October 14, 2002 - 02:31 am
Mssuzy:--You can always tell what chapter we are in by looking at the GREEN quotes in the Heading which are changed periodically. The title above the quotes tells us that we are in the Section entitled "Troy" which begins on Page 33 in Chapter Two. Good to see you here! Looking forward to your comments.

Eloise:--That's an excellent map of Ancient Greece. No problem with our being multi-lingual here. In this discussion group we travel in space as well as time.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 14, 2002 - 02:44 am
"In Troy, on a hill separated by three miles from the sea, Schliemann and Dorpfeld found nine cities, superimposed each upon its predecessor, as if Troy had had nine lives.

"(1) In the lowest strata were the remains of a neolithic village coming down to 3000 B.C. Here were walls of rough stones, mortared with mud -- clay whorls, bits of worked ivory tools of obsidian, and pieces of hand polished black pottery.

"(2) Above this lay the ruins of the Second City, which Schliemann believed to have been Homer's Troy. Its enclosing walls, like those of Tiryns and Mycenae, were of cyclopean stones. At intervals there were fortresses, and at the corners great double gates, of which two are well prserved. Some houses survive to a height of four feet, their walls built of brick and wood upon a stone foundation. The red-painted pottery, wheel-turned but crude, indicates a life span for this city from approximately 2400 to 1900. Bronze has replaced stone for tools and weapons, and jewelry abounds. The statuettes are unprepossengly primitive.

"The Second City was apparently destroyed by fire. Signs of conflagration are numerous, and persuaded Schliemann that this was the work of Agamemnon's Greeks."

Nine cities built each one on top of the other!!

Robby

Bubble
October 14, 2002 - 04:36 am
It reminds me so much of "the Source" by Michener, also the story of one place throughout millenia. If only stones could talk... Bubble

Malryn (Mal)
October 14, 2002 - 08:29 am
ABOUT CANAKKALE, TROY AND THE 9 CITIES

mssuzy
October 14, 2002 - 04:55 pm
Bonsoir! Thanks, Robby, I learned something today. If you are only at p. 33, I will most likely catch up soon, I am a pretty fast reader. Yes, Eloise, let's bthe in the sunshine! Is it already cold up there where you are? A bientot, this is fun.

robert b. iadeluca
October 14, 2002 - 05:46 pm
"(3-5) Above the 'Burnt City' are the relics of three successive hamlets, small and poor, and negligible in archeological content.

"(6) About 1600 another city rose on the historic hill. Through the passionate haste of his work, Schliemann mixed the objects of this stratum with those of the second, and dismissed the Sixth City as an unimportant 'Lydian settlement.' But Dorpfeld, continuing the excavations after Schlieman's death, and for a time with Schliemann's money, revealed a town considerably larger than the Second, ornate with substantial buildings in dressed stone, and enclosed by a thirty-foot wall of whose four gates three remain.

"In the ruins were monochrome vases of finer workmanship than before, vessels like the 'Minyan' ware of Orchomenos, and potsherds so like those found at Mycenae that Dorpfeld considered them to be importations from that city, and therefore contemporary with the Shaft Grave Dynasty (1400-1200).

"On these and other shifting grounds current opinion identifies the Sixth City with Homer's Troy, and assigns to it the 'Treasury of Priam' that Schliemann thought he had found in the Second City -- six bracelets, two goblets, two diadems, a fillet, sixty earrings, and 8700 other pieces, all in gold. The Sixth City too, we are assured, perished by fire, shortly after 1200. Greek historians traditionally assigned the siege of Troy to 1194-1184 B.C."

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
October 14, 2002 - 08:11 pm
Can you imagine how archaeologists felt when they found not one or two cities, but nine which were built on the mound called Hisarlik in the Province of Canakkale? What a find! What a fantastic find!

The relationship of Troy, or Truva, as it is known, as well as Ilium, to Turkey interests me very much. Was there intermarriage? Interchange of language and customs? What an amazing mystery Ancient Troy really is.

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
October 14, 2002 - 08:18 pm
Click small image to access a larger one.

ORCHOMENOS

Éloïse De Pelteau
October 14, 2002 - 08:23 pm
We cannot imagine Troy without Helen...........HELEN OF TROY.........

Justin
October 14, 2002 - 10:45 pm
Durant offers us two opposing theories for the advent of the Greek language in Greece. Ridgeway, the English archeologist, suggests that the Mycenaeans were Pelasgians who spoke Greek and that the Achaeans were Celts from central Europe.They invaded the Peloponesus about 1400 and adopted Greek by intermingling with the Mycenaeans.

There is a more traditional theory that identifies the Achaeans as a Greek tribe that expanded from Thessaly to the Peloponesus in 1400 and who mingled with the Mycenaeans and Pelasgians giving them the language.

In my view the latter theory is more likely tho there is good argument on both sides. I think it unlikely the celts would travel great distances like the Huns of a later period. This movement was not rapid it was more of an infiltration as Durant pointed out earlier. Infiltrations do not originate at great distances. Nearby tribes tend to enlarge and to seek better grazing next door.They do not originate 1000 miles and more away as would be necessary for the Celts.

So I think Greek is a blend of Creto, Mycenaean and Achaean and the Pelasgians, if they were part of the mix, learned the language from the incoming Achaeans. It was the Achaeans who took over and by 1250 were incontrol.

I think Greek is a home grown language that was strengthened by expanding Thessalians and not an import from somewhere in the Northern Balkans where we might expect to find evidence of Greek in the current language. Is there Greek in Armenian? Is there Greek in Slovakian? Probably not, though it would take a linguist to confirn that view. A Celtic origin seems irrational to me.

robert b. iadeluca
October 15, 2002 - 03:38 am
"Who were the Trojans? An Egyptian papyrus mentions certain "Dardenui" as among the allies of the Hittites at the battle of Kadesh (1187). Probably these Dardani crossed the Hellespont in the sixteenth century with the kindred Phrygians, and settled in the lower valley of the Scamander. Herodotus, however, identified the Trojans with the Teucrians, and the Teucrians, according to Stabo, were Cretans who settled in the Troad, perhaps after the fall of Cnossus.

"Both Crete and the Troad had a sacred Mount Ide, the "many-fountained Ida" of Homer and Tennyson. Presumably the region was subject at various times to political and ethnic influences from the Hittite hinterland. All in all, the excavations indicate a civilization partly Minoan, partly Mycenaean, partly Asiatic, partly Danubian.

"Homer represents the Trojans as speaking the same language and worshiping the same gods as the Greeks. Later Hellenic imagination preferred to think of Troy as an Asiatic city, and of the famous siege as the first known episode in an endless contest between Semite and Aryan, East and West."

This is indeed a mystery story and please remember -- we are talking about ourselves. Are we Eastern? Are we Western? What are our origins? Where did we come from? And what about our own language of English? There are words in it which originate from the Greek. Homer said the Trojans spoke the same language as the Greeks. But Troy was an Asiatic city. And its origins were partly this, and partly this, and partly this, and partly that.

Who and what are we anyway?

Robby

Bubble
October 15, 2002 - 04:04 am
There is a very good article on Istanbul (note the spelling) on Edge. Pictures, maps, etc.



Http://Nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0210.html



Also an article on Ramses tomb and a royal cemetery at Sakarra, Egypt. Have a look, it is worth it.

MaryPage
October 15, 2002 - 07:01 am
I am so excited we are at TROY. There is no doubt in my mind that the history, especially the names and places, handed down by the peoples, and traditions and saved writings of those who settled around the Aegean Sea is, for the most part, true. It is colored by the "side" telling the story; i.e., the prejudices. It is added to by enthusiasm and fervor exhibited by human beings who lacked any real knowledge of this universe, but who bought into a complete spirit world of human-like gods who controlled everything. EVERYTHING! The weather, the crops, the animals, the wars, birth and death. Their very sincere and real belief included the possibility, if they were famous enough or heroic enough, of becoming gods themselves after death. I think it is very important in studying this period that we put ourselves in their sandels, strip ourselves of all our present-day understanding, and appreciate their daily calling on whichever god or goddess could intervene and help them with that days tasks, whether it included preparing a meal, giving birth, tending a field, or heading for war. Doing so, we will open our eyes to all of the parallels with other religions. We will discover, perhaps with intense astonishment, many of the stories adopted and changed by tribal groups after these times we study here.

Parables and allegories start right here. For intervention of the god or gods, read "miracles." For kings, queens and heroes who became gods after their deaths, read "saints."

Malryn (Mal)
October 15, 2002 - 08:29 am
WHO WERE THE GREEKS?

robert b. iadeluca
October 15, 2002 - 10:06 am
MaryPage says:--"I think it is very important in studying this period that we put ourselves in their sandels, strip ourselves of all our present-day understanding."

I agree completely.

Robby

tooki
October 15, 2002 - 11:55 am
So claims Bryan Sykes in a recent book (2002), "The Seven Daughters of Eve: The Science That Reveals Our Genetic Ancestry." Sykes is the Oxford geneticist who "proved" by DNA analysis that the woman who claimed to be Anastasis Romanov could not have been the daughter of the Czarina murdered by Lenin. In his book he concludes that every person on earch is the descendant of one of only 33 women, who were the matrilineal descendants of "Eve." (Remember "Mitochondrial Eve" from a few years ago when DNA tracing was beginning?) Furthur, nearly all modern Europeans are descendants of one of seven "clan mothers" who lived at different times during the Ice Age. There are other geneticists out there decoding mitochondrial DNA and tracing the path of human evolution and migration so there's probably more to come.

Malryn (Mal)
October 15, 2002 - 11:56 am
The link below takes you to a short diagrammatic comparison of the Gilgamesh and the Iliad.

GILGAMESH-ILIAD COMPARISON

Justin
October 15, 2002 - 11:58 am
Mary Page: Me too. Mal has been doing this since we started. She must be well mongrelized now. How about it, Mal? Are you well mixed?

Justin
October 15, 2002 - 12:09 pm
Mary Page: Sometimes only a word or two is needed to give fresh insight.In this case "miracle" and "saint" did the trick for me. I often look for connections between early religious ideas and modern religious concepts. The gods still interfere with human activity and we persist in elevating humans to the rank of the gods. Some of them we see as gate keepers, like Peter and others like Paul are story tellers who disseminate tales of the gods.

Justin
October 15, 2002 - 12:26 pm
My compliments, Mal. Your links, "Who are the Greeks" and the Gilgamesh comparison, were a priceless find. They brought a myriad of ideas into focus for me. Thanks.

Bubble
October 15, 2002 - 12:50 pm
http://magma.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0210/feature6/index.html

I realize the link I gave about Istanbul did not work. i hope this one does.

Malryn (Mal)
October 15, 2002 - 01:09 pm
Mongrel, Justin? I tell you, when I first started in this Story of Civilization discussion, I was sure I knew my background and who my ancestors were. Now I don't know who I am or where I came from at all.

If you click the link marked Iliad at the bottom of the web pages you mentioned, you'll see links to other sites that may be just as good.
Well, here:
ILIAD

Mal

Justin
October 15, 2002 - 02:18 pm
Mal. Thank you. Mongrelized is not quite the right word. But I was afraid if I said "mixed personality" you wouldn't speak to me anymore. One can absorb only so many cultures into one's psyche before...poof... one is mixed. It begins to look like we are "global beings" with east and west merged in our psyche.

Justin
October 15, 2002 - 02:49 pm
Mal; How about "Homogenized"?

robert b. iadeluca
October 15, 2002 - 06:53 pm
"More significant than the racial complexion of its people was the strategic position of Troy near the entrance to the Hellespont and the rich lands about the Black Sea. Throughout history that narrow passage has been the battleground of empires. The siege of Troy was the Gallipoli adventure of 1194 B.C. The plain was moderately fertile, and the precious metals lay in the soil to the east. But this alone would hardly account for the wealth of Troy, and the tenacious attack of the Greeks.

"The city was admirably placed to levy tolls upon vessels wishing to pass through the Hellespont, while it was too far inland to be conveniently assailed from the sea. Perhaps it was this, and not Helen's face, that launched a thousand ships upon Ilium.

"On a likelier theory the southward current and winds in the strait persuaded merchants to unload their cargoes at Troy and ship them overland into the interior. From the charges exacted for this service, Troy may have derived its wealth and power. In any case the city's trade grew rapidly, as may be judged from the varied provenance of its remains.

"From the lower Aegean came copper, olive oil, wine, and pottery. From the Danube and Thrace came pottery, amber, horses, and swords. From distant China came so great a rarity as jade. In return Troy brought from the interior, and exported, timber, silver, gold, and wild asses.

"Seated proudly behind their walls, the 'horse-taming Trojans' dominated the Troad, and taxed its trade on land and sea."

Note the emphasis of "horses" in the life of the Trojans. Can you visualize the Greeks having a war council and someone coming up with a brilliant idea?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 15, 2002 - 06:57 pm
Check out this MAP OF THE HELLESPONT and "guess" why it was so easy to set up a "toll gate" there.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 15, 2002 - 07:14 pm
"More significant than the racial complexion of its people was the strategic position of Troy near the entrance to the Hellespont and the rich lands about the Black Sea. Throughout history that narrow passage has been the battleground of empires. The siege of Troy was the Gallipoli adventure of 1194 B.C. The plain was moderately fertile, and the precious metals lay in the soil to the east. But this alone would hardly account for the wealth of Troy, and the tenacious attack of the Greeks.

"The city was admirably placed to levy tolls upon vessels wishing to pass through the Hellespont, while it was too far inland to be conveniently assailed from the sea. Perhaps it was this, and not Helen's face, that launched a thousand ships upon Ilium.

"On a likelier theory the southward current and winds in the strait persuaded merchants to unload their cargoes at Troy and ship them overland into the interior. From the charges exacted for this service, Troy may have derived its wealth and power. In any case the city's trade grew rapidly, as may be judged from the varied provenance of its remains.

"From the lower Aegean came copper, olive oil, wine, and pottery. From the Danube and Thrace came pottery, amber, horses, and swords. From distant China came so great a rarity as jade. In return Troy brought from the interior, and exported, timber, silver, gold, and wild asses.

"Seated proudly behind their walls, the 'horse-taming Trojans' dominated the Troad, and taxed its trade on land and sea."

Note the emphasis of "horses" in the life of the Trojans. Can you visualize the Greeks having a war council and someone coming up with a brilliant idea?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 16, 2002 - 05:07 am
"The picture that we derive from the Iliad of Priam and his household is one of Biblical grandeur and patriarchal benevolence. The King is polygamous, not as a diversion but as a royal responsibility to continue his high breed abundantly.. His sons are monogamous, and as well behaved as the fictitious Victorians -- excepting, of course, the gay Paris, who is as innocent of morals as Alcibiades.

"Hector, Helenus, and Troilus are more likable than the vacillating Agamemnon, the treacherous Odysseus, and the petulant Achilles. Andromache and Polyxena are as charming as Helen and Iphigenia and Hercuba is a shade better than Clytaemnestra.

"All in all, the Trojans, as pictured by their enemies, seem to us less deceitful, more devoted, better gentlemen, than the Greeks who conquered them. The conquerors themselves felt this in later days. Homer had many a kind word to say for the Trojans. Sappho and Euripides left no doubt as to where their sympathies and admiration lay.

"It was a pity that these noble Dardans stood in the way of an expanding Greece which, despite its multitude of faults, would in the end bring to this and every other region of the Mediterranean a higher civilization than they had ever known."

Might over right?

Robby

OrchidLady
October 16, 2002 - 08:07 am
Robbie, maybe, but sometimes the might IS right. We can see that today. We (the U.S.) is not always right, but it makes no difference in some areas. Because we are powerful, we must be wrong. Louise

Malryn (Mal)
October 16, 2002 - 08:13 am
Below is a link to a picture of Troy taken through Space Imaging. What would the Trojans have thought of that?

ANCIENT TROY FROM SPACE

Malryn (Mal)
October 16, 2002 - 08:24 am
TEXT OF HOMER'S ILIAD TRANSLATED BY SAMUEL BUTLER

moxiect
October 16, 2002 - 09:35 am
Rob

Just to let you know I am in here reading and learning more each day plus visiting all the links.

OrchidLady
October 16, 2002 - 10:15 am
MAL, that's a great link to Homer's I. I had a wonderful translation years ago, in a way that was supposed to make it easier to remember, but in one of my moves, it failed to move with me.

Robbie, the text accompanying the picture says that Schleiman had to search for the seat of Troy, and walked over the Turkish landscape looking for it. I remember reading about l0 years ago, that this wasn't the case.

There was a representative of a European country, a consulate of some sort, to whom Schleiman talked when he got there. This man said that there was a persistant and prevailing legend in this area of Turkey that Troy was in the area in which it was found - near a river, don't remember the name. He was told that at the time of the Trojan wars, the city was on the water, the ocean, but over the centuries the land changed and the city was further inland. I think, but won't swear to it, that because the site is some miles from the ocean, many scholars wrote it off as the possible site, but Schleiman didn't. He went there and started digging.

I don't know if this is completely right.* Don't remember where I read it, and about 15 to 20 yrs. ago Schleiman was politically incorrect, but the pendulum has probably swung and I would think it is now politically safe to say a good word about him. Louise

  • Although I do remember the writer was a respected archaeologist
  • robert b. iadeluca
    October 16, 2002 - 05:40 pm
    We now enter that period which is most familiar to those who have studied Ancient Greece -- what Durant calls

    The Heroic Age

    "Modest Hittite tablets from Boghaz Keui, of approximately 1325 B.C. speak of the 'Ahhijava' as a people equal in power to the Hittites themselves. An Egyptian record towards 1221 B.C. mentions the 'Akaiwasha' as joining other 'Peoples of the Sea' in a Libyan invasion of Egypt, and describes them as a roving band 'fighting to fill their bellies.'

    "Because the Achaeans had become the most powerful of the Greek tribes, Homer uses their name for all the Greeks at Troy. Greek historians and poets of the classic age called the Achaeans, like the Pelasgians, autochthonous -- native to Greece as far back as memory could recall. And they assumed without hesitation that the Achaean culture described in Homer was one with that which has here been termed Mycenaean.

    "In 1901 an unusually iconoclastic Englishman, Sir William Ridgeway, upset this happy confidence by pointing out that though Achaean civilization agreed with the Mycenaean in many ways, it differed in vital particulars.

    "(1) Iron is practically unknown to the Mycenaeans, the Achaeans are familiar with it.

    "(2) The dead in Homer are cremated. In Tiryns and Mycenae they are buried, implying a different conception of the afterlife.

    "(3) The Achaean gods are the Olympians, of whom no trace has been found in the culture of Mycenae.

    "(4) The Achaeans use long swords, round shields, and safety-pin brooches. No objects of such form appear in the varied Mycenaean remains.

    "(5) There are considerable dissimilarities in coiffure and dress. Ridgeway concluded that the Mycenaeans were Pelasgians, and spoke Greek. That the Achaeans were blond 'Celts,' or Central Europeans -- who came down through Epirus and Thessaly from 2000 onward -- brought with them the worship of Zeus -- invaded the Peloponnesus about 1400, adopted Greek speech and many Greek ways -- and established themselves as feudal chieftains ruling from their fortress-palaces a subjugated Pelasgian population."

    Hittite -- Egyptian -- Libyan. Obviously the Oriental Heritage remains.

    Robby

    Justin
    October 16, 2002 - 06:36 pm
    Now that we know that Troy existed in nine reincarnations, what do we know about the rest of the Homeric tales? Was there an Achaean attack on one of the Troys? Did the seige last ten years. Was the city penetrated by a ruse? How did Greece benefit from the colapse of Troy?Did the traffic at the Hellespont increase after the demise of Troy?

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 16, 2002 - 08:10 pm
    "It would not be wise to hang a rejection of so unanimous tradition upon a gradual increase in the use of iron, a change in modes of burial or coiffure, a lengthening of swords or rounding shields, or evena safety pin. It is more likely that the Achaeans, as all classic writers supposed, were a Greek tribe that, in its natural multiplication, expanded from Thessaly into the Peoponneus during the fourteenth and thirteenth centuries, mingled their blood with the Pelasgo-Mycenaeans there, and, toward 1250 B.C. became the ruling class.

    "Probably it was they who gave Greek to the Pelasgians, instead of receiving it from them. In such place names as Corinth and Tiryns, Parnassus and Olympia, we may have echoes of a Creto-Pelasgo-Mycenaean tongue. In the same manner,presumably, the Archaeans superimposed their mountain and sky gods upon the 'chthonic' or subterranean deities of the earlier population.

    "The Mycenaean culture and that later phase of it, the Achaean, seem to have mingled and melted into one.

    "Slowly, as the amalgamation proceeded, Aegean civilization passed away, dying in the defeat of Troy, and Greek civilization began.

    Robby

    Justin
    October 16, 2002 - 11:03 pm
    Durant tells us in a footnote on page 42 that Heracles is the beloved son of god who sufers for mankind, raises the dead to life, decends into hades, and then ascends into heaven. Here we have another example of the origin of the Judeo-Christian story. Thus far we have found similar stories in Egypt and in several Mesopotamian cultures. The biblical writers had many sources for their tales of human interaction with the gods. It is not surprising that these tales are repeated over and over again.

    Bubble
    October 17, 2002 - 12:24 am
    Orpheus...

    elizabeth 78
    October 17, 2002 - 04:04 am
    If all time is present in this one instant, then all the stories of a Christ figure, culture after culture, must be about the one Christ figure.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 17, 2002 - 04:08 am
    "The legends of the Heroic Age suggest both the origins and the destinies of the Achaeans. They are so bound up with Greek poetry, drama, and art that we should be at a loss to understand these without them.

    "Hittite inscriptions mention an Atarissyas as King of the Ahhijavas in the thirteenth century B.C. He is probably Atreus, King of the Achaeans. In Greek story Zeus begat Tantalus, King of Phrygia, who begat Pelops, who begat Atreas, who begat Agamemnon. Pelops, being exiled, came to Elis in the western Peloponnesus about 1283, and determined to marry Hippodameia, daughter of Oenomaus, Elis' king.

    "The east pediment of the great temple of Zeus at Olympia still tells us the story of their courtship. The King made a practice to test his daughter's suitors by competing with them in a chariot race. If the suitor won he would receive Hippodameia. If he lost he was put to death. Several suitors had tried, and had lost both race and life.

    "To reduce the risks, Pelops bribed the King's charioteer, Myrtilus, to remove the linch pins from the royal chariot, and promised to share the kingdom with him if their plan succeeded. In the contest that ensued, the King's chariot broke down, and he was killed. Pelops married Hippodameia and ruled Elis, but instead of sharing the kingdom with Myrtilus, he threw Myrtilus into the sea. As Myrtilus sank, he laid an ominous curse upon Pelops and all his descendants.

    "Pelops' daughter married Sthenelus, son of Perseus and King of Argon. The throne passed down to their son Eurysthesus and, after the latter's death, to his uncle Atreus. Atreus's sons Agamemnon and Menelaus married Clytaemnestra and Helen, daughters of King Tyndareus of Lacedaemon. When Atreus and Tyndareus died, Agamemnon and Menelaus between them ruled all the eastern Peloponnesus from their respective capitals at Mycenae and Sparta. The Peloponneus or Island of Pelops, came to be called after their grandfather, whose descendants had quite forgotten the curse of Myrtlus."

    How much of this is legend? How much is true? If Zeus was a mythical figure and begat Tantalus, was Tantalus also a mythical figure or a real person? How about the men and women after them? What is your reaction to the first GREEN quote above?

    Robby

    tooki
    October 17, 2002 - 07:08 am
    Those were Joseph Campbell's word in a 1949 book. Since then others have agreed with him, as Durant seems to. The myth of the hero has at least three components. The hero is mysteriously birthed, departs, undergoes an initiation, and returns triumphantly. As folks have just noted in the messages here, all cultures and religions have their heros. It seems to me that He (or She) sort of stands in for the rest of us mere mortals. I wonder what it would be like to be a hero?

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 17, 2002 - 07:26 am
    Below is a link to a VRML representation of the Temple of Zeus at Olympia. Below the first picture is a link called "Temple of Zeus". Click it and on the page that comes up you'll see another link called "East Pediment". By clicking that link you'll see what is described in the quote from Durant in Robby's Post # 627.

    VRML REPRESENTATION TEMPLE OF ZEUS

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 17, 2002 - 07:39 am
    BULLFINCH’S MYTHOLOGY



    CLASSICAL MYTHOLOGY SOURCES Scroll down

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 17, 2002 - 07:42 am
    About the first Durant quote in green at the top of the page: I think it's safe to say there's a bit of truth in all myths, including the myths in the Old and New Testaments in the Bible.

    Mal

    Bubble
    October 17, 2002 - 08:37 am
    Are not all legends created from a core of truth? Great deeds with time and many re-tellings get supernatural dimentions since each poet or troubadour will add his touch or his pinch of salt. Ergo by studying carefully those legends and epics you can uncover the initial buried truth.

    Lady C
    October 17, 2002 - 11:59 am
    JUSTIN: Yes; this myth persists throughout the millinia. Have you read Joseph Campbell's "Hero with a Thousand Faces".

    ROBBY: All peoples need heroes, and how wonderful to be able to think that they are descended from gods and heroes. Wouldn't we all like to believe that our great-great uncle the horse-thief was really a super-hero?

    MALRYN: Although I loved Bullfinch's Mythology when I was a kid, I realized how sanitized it was when I began to read others as an adult. My favorite is still Joseph Campbell's four-volume set. Those gods and goddesses were a pretty raunchy and violent, and sometimes mean-spirited bunch.

    OrchidLady
    October 17, 2002 - 12:51 pm
    Robbie, I just realized that your "green" entries are black on my computer. I read them of course but I wondered where the green items were. Louise

    Bubble
    October 17, 2002 - 02:25 pm
    Dark green, Louise. Compare the words "first" or "previous" with the words "no more messages" at the end of our postings and you will see the difference.

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 17, 2002 - 02:25 pm
    Lady C, not all of us are fortunate enough to have access to Joseph Campbell's books on mythology.

    Mal

    mssuzy
    October 17, 2002 - 03:28 pm
    Are we supposed to be confused or "erudits"?

    North Star
    October 17, 2002 - 03:44 pm
    Elizabeth 77: Or the other way around. The pre Christian figure that had Christ's qualities were the source of the qualitiesgiven to Chirst. It would be nice if gods and heroes in other cultures could be examined on their own merit without comparison to Christianity. I guess everyone will jump on me for saying this.

    OrchidLady
    October 17, 2002 - 03:55 pm
    I checked, and the text put in by Robbie is still black. Its like the "no more messages," only its larger and bold face. Louise

    North Star
    October 17, 2002 - 04:05 pm
    Robby's post #527 , The Legends of a Heroic Age, reminds me of a plot for an opera. There's a bit of Turandot in it.

    OrchidLady
    October 17, 2002 - 04:10 pm
    North Star, I won't jump on you, but when you think over what you wrote you'll see there's a certain lack of logic there. I don't think that twelve illiterate peasants knew very much about the Greek -and earlier gods. They were not likely to incorporate any pre christian mythology into their writings. They were too busy, for one thing, trying to figure out how Judaic teachings fitted in with Christian ones. Also tryhing to keep the heck out of the hands of the Roman judges.

    As for examining the gods and heros in other cultures and judging them on their own merits, well, I guess you could find some good points among the Greek/Roman gods, altho they did fight a lot among themselves, and when not fighting, the male gods were busy seducing any pretty little (human) miss that caught their eye. But they were a fun crowd, who'd liven up a party, I'll give them that.

    Jesus was popular, he was invited to dinners and weddings, and children followed him. But I don't think he had a lot of wit - he told stories like the one about the Good Samaritan, which is definitely a "downer". But many many people died defending his gospel and off hand, I can't think of a single person who died in the name of, oh, say, Zeus, or Athena, or anybody you'd care to nane.

    Louise

    tooki
    October 17, 2002 - 04:14 pm
    Mssnzy: What's an "erudit"? I'm confused. In spite of Campbell, (and his four volumes) I think good ol' Bulflinch still swings.

    MaryPage
    October 17, 2002 - 04:20 pm
    This was a time of no radio, tv, newspapers as we know them, or books as we know them. People got their news by word of mouth. Storytellers and epic singers roamed from village to city to town. People welcomed these to their hearths and campfires, etc., and fed them in return for hearing their stories. Also, many people traveled to a particular place to hear story tellers and poem singers. Because these stories included all of the myths from earliest times, changed only bit by bit over the centuries, I have no doubt at all that most people knew these stories and that as the millennia passed bits and pieces were attached to later stories. Sailors and merchants took them with them to foreign shores. Invading and conquering armies added their own myths to those of the peoples they conquered.

    Think about it! This was one of their only forms of entertainment. Of diversion from hard working lives. Children knew these stories by heart from an early age, they heard them repeated so often.

    Justin
    October 17, 2002 - 11:29 pm
    Yes , indeed Mary Page. We have seen it again and again in "Oriental Heritage. The stories were there for all to hear and pass on. Each new group adapts the old stories to fit their own heros.

    Bubble
    October 18, 2002 - 02:23 am
    The "illiterate peasants" of Judea, Samaria, Lebanon and the rest of region knew all about the old myths. It was very present around them, the same as were the beliefs about gods like Baal and Astarte. There were still lots of temples in the region dedicated to them that are being excavated nowadays.



    I doubt that The Judaic teaching was the general exclusive of these times. There are always other minorities. I would be surprised if the other oriental religions we talked about didn't have their own martyrs too. Justified or not, man seems to be able to put his life at stake for his convictions. My opinion of course. Bubble

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 18, 2002 - 07:28 am
    As Justin said, in Our Oriental Heritage we read and discussed many stories about a man usually born of a virgin mother, who did good deeds, died and was resurrected, long before Christianity came along. The question I had then and still have today is why do human beings have such a need for a supernatural figure like this and this particular story? Is it once again fear of death that has prompted its repetition in many, many cultures almost since time began?

    Where has Robby gone, I wonder? Was he scheduled for a conference this week?

    Mal

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 18, 2002 - 02:45 pm
    Mal:--Yes, I was the facilitator of a Psychological Workshop from early yesterday morning until I returned home about a hour ago. But I have never found in Story of Civilization that anything slowed down or that thoughts dried up just because I wasn't here!

    Louise:--Now that everyone is acutely aware of the four quotes above which are periodically changed, it doesn't make any difference what color they come out on the screen.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 18, 2002 - 03:02 pm
    Durant continues:--

    "In the fifteenth century before our era, said Greek tradition, the iniquity of the human race provoked Zeus to overwhelm it with a flood, from which one man, Deucalion, and his wife Pyrrha, alone were saved, in an ark or chest that came to rest on Mount Parnassua. From Deucalion's son Hellen had come all the Greek tribes, and their united name, Hellenes.

    "Hellen was grandfather of Achaeus and Ion, who begot the Achaeean and Ionian tribes, which, after many wanderings, peopled respectively the Peloponnesus and Attica. One of Ion's descendants, Cecrops, with the help of the goddess Athena, founded (on a site whose acropolis had already been settled by Pelasgians) the city that was named after her, Athens. It was he, said the story, that gave civilization to Attica, instituted marriage, abolished bloody sacrifices, and taught his sujects to worship the Olympian gods -- Zeus and Athens above the rest.

    "The descendants of Cecrops ruled Athens as kings. The fourth in line was Erechtheus, to whom the city, honoring him as a god, would later dedicate one of its loveliest temples. His grandson, Theseus, about 1250, merged the twelve demes or villages of Attica into one political unity, whose citizens, wherever they lived, were to be called Athenians. Perhaps it was because of this historic synoikismos, or municipal cohabitation, that Athens, like Thebes and Mycenae had a plural name.

    "It was Thesus who brought order and power to Athens, ended the sacfifice of her children to Minos, and gave her people security on the roads by slaying the highwayman Procrustes, who had liked to stretch or cut the legs of his captives to make them fit his bed. After Theseus' death, Athens worshiped him, too, as a god.

    "As late as 476, in the skeptical age of Pericles, the city brought the bones of Theseus from Scyros and deposited them as sacred relics in the temple of Theseus."

    Yes, we all recognize the "flood" story, don't we, after having seen it occur and reoccur in Our Oriental Heritage. And remember Durant talking about how much we inherited parts of the Greek language? How about our word "procrustean?" What does that mean to us?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 18, 2002 - 03:56 pm
    Here is the ANCIENT GREEK STORY OF THE FLOOD for your comparison.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 18, 2002 - 04:07 pm
    Here is a FASCINATNG ARTICLE about a possible ancient flood and how it may have happened in the very area we are discussing.

    Robby

    moxiect
    October 18, 2002 - 04:12 pm


    Out of curiosity is the great flood that Noah's Ark was to have been built? The only difference I see between the story of Noah's Ark and the ancient flooding is the number of days?

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 18, 2002 - 04:19 pm
    Here is an OFF-TOPIC TREAT for those who participated in Our Oriental Heritage.

    Robby

    Justin
    October 18, 2002 - 04:23 pm
    Procrustean is a word we have all heard much of in our life time. It was a way to describe the Nazi regime in Germany in the 1930's. It is an equally useful term for the Spanish Inquisition. Lucky Luciano and his friends deserve to be so described for their comportment with Chicago merchants who paid for protection. Conformity based on violence has almost always led to rebellion.

    Justin
    October 18, 2002 - 04:38 pm
    The destruction of the great library at Alexandria is one the world's greatest calamities. Who knows what failures might have been averted in the last two thousand years had we known what the world knew then? The local damage of places like Dresden pales when compared with the loss of the library at Alexandria. War is often as a two sided a spear. It takes the gains of the present and it gives the gains of starting over in a new future.

    Justin
    October 18, 2002 - 05:00 pm
    The similarities in the role of the gods in all these flood stories is remarkable. In most, the gods are unhappy with the actions of people and seek to wipe them out, while saving a devout couple for the future of the race. The Soddom and Gomorrah thing is similar in concept. Although I had not equated these things before.

    I think evidence was found to support the posibility of a flood in southern Irag in the Euphrates-Tigris delta of the Persian Gulf which caused the movement of a people like the Sumerians out of or back into the delta region for farming purposes. It seems to me there are Jewish tribes still living in the region and practicing the ancient tenets of the religion.

    Justin
    October 18, 2002 - 05:23 pm
    Three years have passed since diving began in the Black Sea. I wonder what success the marine archeologists have experienced.

    North Star
    October 18, 2002 - 06:11 pm
    I was going to mention the Black Sea too. Divers had found evidence of ancient habitation on the shores of an ancient lake far smaller than the Black Sea. It is thought that the filling of the Black Sea to its present size is part of an ancient oral tradition. I'm trying to remember what I read now but I think the ancient habitation dates back 7,000 years.

    It's true that the burning of the library in Alexandria was one of the great losses of knowledge to the world. I think, though, that there must have been some duplication of the scrolls because the knowledge of the ancient Greeks existed in the Arab world and was translated into Arabic. When early church leaders were busy destroying everything they didn't agree with, the knowledge was preserved. (This comment is not meant to be a back handed slap at Christianity but acknowledges that this happened. We only have the Gnostic texts now because they were buried and not discovered until 1945.)

    When the Moors occupied southern Europe, Spain, etc, this learning was translated into European languages. I guess we'll get to this with Durant in a few years.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 18, 2002 - 06:49 pm
    North Star:--Nice to know you'll be with us for "a few years!"

    Robby

    Justin
    October 18, 2002 - 11:24 pm
    Yes, Robby, the Moors in Spain are 4000 years away. We'll do that in a couple of years, I guess.

    Bubble
    October 19, 2002 - 03:11 am
    procrustean: adj., violently making conformable to a standard - from Procrutes ( in Gr.Prokroustes), a fabulous Greek robber, who stretched or cut his captives' legs to make them fit a bed. (Gr. prokrouein, to lengthen out).



    Definition from Chambers's Twenty Century Dictionary, 1962 edition.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 19, 2002 - 03:43 am
    "To the north, in Boeotia, a rival capital had equally stirring traditions, destined to become the very substance of Greek drama in the classic age. Late in the fourteenth century B.C. the Phoenician or Cretan or Egyptian prince Cadmus founded the city of Thebes at the meeting of the roads that cross Greece from east to west and from north to south, taught its people letters, and slew the dragon (perhaps an ancient phrase for an infecting or infesting organism) that hindered the settlers from using the waters of the Areian spring.

    "From the dragon's teeth, which Cadmus sowed in the earth, sprang armed men who, like the Greeks of history, attacked one another until only five survived, these five, said Thebes, were the founders of her royal families. The government established itself on a hill citadel called the Cadmeia, where in our own time a 'palace of Cadmus' has been unearthed.

    "There, after Cadmus, reigned his son Polydorus, his grandson Labdacus, and his great-grandson Laius, whose son Oedipus, as all the world knows, slew his father and married his mother. When Oedipus died, his sons quarreled over the scepter, as is the habit of princes. Eteocles drove out Polynices, who persuaded Adrastus, King of Argus, to attempt his restoration.

    "Adrastus tried (ca. 1213), in the famous war of the Seven (Allies) against Thebes, and again sixteen years later in the war of the Epigoni, or sons of the Seven. This time both Eteocles and Polynices were killed, and Thebes was burned to the ground."

    Familiar terms here -- Thebes -- Oedipus -- Argus. And I am wondering what was wrong with the water of the Areian spring.

    Robby

    Bubble
    October 19, 2002 - 04:04 am
    In French, the term Beotian is used to describe someone uncouth, wild and uneducated or with rough manners. Is it the same in English?



    The South Americans also have their own legend about the great flood. It really covers the whole globe.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 19, 2002 - 04:29 am
    Bubble:--What is the South American legend?

    Robby

    Bubble
    October 19, 2002 - 05:06 am
    More of the same. I will have to research in my old NatGeoMag to find it, I don't remember. Around the lake of Titicaca they tell of a big flood, a couple saved in a boat and the people repopulating the earth from these two. At the time I compared it with the Bibble account. The Incas too probably have something similar?

    moxiect
    October 19, 2002 - 07:10 am
    Robby

    And I am wondering what was wrong with the water of the Areian spring.

    Could it have been loaded with SALT!

    moxiect
    October 19, 2002 - 08:53 am


    Found this link which has most of all the legends concerning the great flood.

    http://www.wwatching.net/legends_deluge.htm

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 19, 2002 - 09:05 am
    Thank you, Moxi, for that most intriguing link.

    Robby

    Bubble
    October 19, 2002 - 09:47 am
    Moxiect, That was a compact one to compare them all. I wish they could be dated to see if they refer to the same time period. I am surprised there is no mention of flood from the akashic data of the Tibetans? They are said to remember everything.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 19, 2002 - 09:47 am
    "Among the Theban aristocrats was one Amphitryon, who had a charming wife, Alemene. Her Zeus visited while Amphitryon was gone to the wars, and Heracles (Hercules) was their son.

    "Hera, who did not relish these jovial condescensions, sent two serpents to destroy the babe in the cradle, but the boy grasped one in each hand and strangled them both. Therefore he was called Heracles, as having won glory through Hera. Linus, oldest name in the history of music, tried to teach the youth how to play and sing but Heracles did not care for music, and slew Linus with the lyre.

    "When he grew up -- a clumsy, bibulous, gluttonous, kindly giant -- he undertook to kill a lion that was ravaging the flocks of Amphitryon and Thespius.

    "The latter, King of Thespiae, offered his home and his fifty daughters to Heracles, who rose to the occasion manfully. He slew the lion, and wore its skin as his garb. He married Megara, daughter of Creon of Thebes, and tried to settle down. But Hera sent a madness upon him, and unwittingly he killed his own children.

    "He consulted the oracle at Delphi, and was instructed to go and live at Tiryns and serve Eurystheus, the Argive king, for twelve years, after which he would become an immortal god. He obeyed, and carried out for Eurystheus his famous twelve labors.

    "Released by the king, Heracles returned to Thebes. He performed many other exploits. He joined the Argonauts, sacked Troy, helped the gods to win their battle against the giants, freed Prometheus, brought Alcestis back to life, and, now and then, killed his own friends by accident.

    "After his death he was worshiped as hero and god, and since had had countless loves, many tribes claimed him as their progenitor."

    I learned a number of lessons from this:--

    1 - Don't go off to war because this god Zeus gets around on the homefront.
    2 - If you don't enjoy singing and playing an instrument, kill your music teacher.
    3 - One lion is worth fifty women.
    4 - Be careful, your mother-in-law can drive you mad.
    5 - The combination of being promiscuous and freeing Prometheus can make you a hero.
    6 - Life is just a bowl of olives. Eat and drink heartily and the world will be at your feet.
    7 - Consult psychic readers and you can't go wrong.

    Robby

    Bubble
    October 19, 2002 - 09:57 am
    Enjoy life and what you are doing has always been a good motto!

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 19, 2002 - 12:13 pm
    HERACLES SACRIFICING WITH SATYR



    HERACLES FEASTING WITH ATHENA



    HERACLES AND AMAZONS

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 19, 2002 - 12:30 pm
    MYTHOLOGY DICTIONARY A TO Z

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 19, 2002 - 02:32 pm
    Until I saw that illustration of Heracles, I had forgotten that the Greeks often ate lying down. I assume we will never see any Ancient Greeks partaking in "fast food."

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 19, 2002 - 02:57 pm
    "If the tale of Pelops and his descendants suggests the Asia Minor origin of the Achaeans, the theme of their destiny is struck in the story of the Argonauts. Like so many of the legends that served as both the historical tradition and the popular fiction of the Greeks, it is an excellent narrative, with all the elements of adventure, exploration, war, love, mystery, and death woven into a fabric so rich that after the dramatists of Athens had almost worn it bare, it was rewoven into a very passable epic, in Hellenistic days, by Apollonius of Rhodes.

    "It begins in Boeotian Orchomenos on the harsh note of human sacrifice, like Agamemnon's tragedy. Finding his land stricken with famine, King Athamas proposed to offer his son Phrixus to the gods. Phrixus learned of the plan and escaped from Orchomenos with his sister Helle, riding with her through the air on a ram with a golden fleece. But the ram was unsteady, and Helle fell off and was drowned in the strait which after her was called the Hellespont.

    "Phrixus reached land and found his way to Colchis, at the farther end of the Black Sea. There he sacrificed the ram and hung up its fleece as an offering to Ares, god of war. Aietes, King of Colchis, set a sleepless dragon to watch the fleece, for an oracle had said that he should die if a stranger carried it off, and to better assure himself he decreed that all strangers coming to Colchis should be put to death.

    "His daughter Medea, who loved strange men and ways, pitied the wayfarers who entered Colchis, and helped them to escape. Her father ordered her to be confined, but she fled to a sacred precinct near the sea, and lived there in bitter brooding until Jason found her wandering on the shore."

    I assume that a person (either an Ancient Greek or one of us) must not try to be too logical when reading a myth. If Phrixus was able to obtain a ram who could fly, why couldn't he escape being sacrificed? If the ram could fly, why couldn't it escape being sacrificed? Sort of like asking why a psychic who reads the tea leaves can't make a killing in the stock market. I have read Joseph Campbell and realize from his warnings that one should not read myths with a jaundiced eye.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 20, 2002 - 10:58 am
    "About the year 1245, Pelias, son of Poseidon, had usurped the throne of Aeson, King of Iolcus in Thessaly. Aeson's infant son Jason had been hidden by friends, and had grown up in the woods to great strength and courage. One day he appeared in the market place, dressed in a leopard skin and armed with two spears, and demanded his kingdom. But he was simple as well as strong, and Pelias persuaded him to undertake a heavy task as the price of the throne -- to recover the Golden Fleece.

    "So Jason built the great ship Argo (the Swift), and called to the adventure the bravest spirits in Greece. Heracles came, with his beloved companion Hylas -- and Peleus, father of Achilles -- Theseus, Meleager, Orpheus, and the fleet-footed maiden Atalanta. As the vessel entered the Hellespont it was halted, seemingly by some force from Troy. Heracles left the expedition to sack the city and kill its King Laomedon, and all his sons but Priam.

    "When, after many tribulations, the Argonauts reached their goal, they were warned by Medea of the death that awaited all strangers in Colchis. But Jason persisted, and Medea agreed to help him gain the Fleece if he would take her to Thessaly and keep her as his wife until he died.

    "He pledged himself to her, captured the Fleece with her aid, and fled back to his ship with her and his men. Many of them were wounded, but Medea quickly healed them with roots and herbs.

    "When Jason reached Iolcus he again asked for the kingdom, and Pelias again delayed. Then Medea, by the arts of a sorceress, deceived the daughters of Pelias into boiling him to death. Frightened by her magic powers, the people drove her and Jason from Iolcus, and debarred him forever from the throne.

    "The rest belongs to Euripides."

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 20, 2002 - 12:20 pm
    MEDEA TEXT by Euripides

    Bubble
    October 20, 2002 - 01:18 pm
    Mal, I had forgotten it was so long!
    Sorry, Euripides, I have lost my concentration less than half way through.



    But they knew how to build a good tale in those times. No wonder it survived and still inspires until today.

    Marvelle
    October 20, 2002 - 01:18 pm
    I first read "The Argonautica" as a young girl and was disappointed because it read like a boy's adventure story and a bad story at that. I was too young to notice that the descriptive technique which fell flat to me was intentional. Ten years ago I read it again and found it to be delightful. The trick is to get a recent translation which doesn't try to 'improve' the language and the images.

    You were right ROBBY to wonder about the incongruity of the story. 'The Argonautica' is a parody of sorts which contrasts the old Homeric heroes with what Apollonius saw as the new anti-heroes. Apollonius Rhodius uses Homeric simile but with a dying fall at the end of each simile.

    For instance, in the great leavetaking in the start of the adventure Jason is voted as captain of the ship. But first Apollonius chronicles all the members of the trip and their great triumphs and accomplishments while with Jason he merely says that his father owned the ship. Hence, the dying fall of the simile. In effect, Jason is captain of the baseball team because his dad owns the bat and ball. And as their so-called adventures continue -- including the bombardment by birds -- their ship shrinks, denoting the passing of the larger-than-life heroric age to the smaller age of the anti-hero.

    Herakles never names Jason except as 'that man' while he calls the others by their names. The Homeric hero Herakles has great disdain for that man.

    The simile used for Aletes' ride is typical of Apollonius' deft technique. Aletes, Lord of the Colchians, rides out to see Jason tussle with the bulls and he looked like Poseidon setting out in his chariot to attend the Isthmian Games -- this is a true Homeric simile which Apollonius deflates with his reflection on the seven alternative routes that the god might have had in mind.

    "The Argonautica" is a fascinating read but be sure to get a recent translation by a reputable scholar.

    Marvelle

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 20, 2002 - 01:27 pm
    Marvelle:--Your posting was most interesting but you will have to explain to this poor illiterate (who now regrets that he didn't have that much classic literature education) -- in very simple language -- just what is a "dying fall?" What is a "Homeric simile?" What is an "anti-hero?"

    I know you gave some examples but "once again, please?"

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 20, 2002 - 02:25 pm
    "It is probable that in the generation before the historic siege of Troy, the Greeks had tried to force their way through the Hellespont and open the Black Sea to colonization and trade. The story of the Argonauts may be the dramatized memory of that commercial exploration. The 'golden fleece' may refer to the woolen skins or cloths anciently used in northern Asia Minor to catch particles of gold carried down by the streams.

    "A Greek settlement was actually made, about this time, on the island of Lemnos, not far from the Hellespont. The Black Sea proved inhospitable despite its propitiating name, and the fortress of Troy rose again after Heracles' visitation to discourage adventures in the strait.

    "But the Greeks did not forget. They would come again -- a thousand ships instead of one -- and on the plain of Ilion the Achaeans would destroy themselves to free the Hellespont."

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 20, 2002 - 02:37 pm
    Here is a MAP AND SOME INFORMATION about the island of Lemnos where there was a Greek settlement. Notice how close is the Hellespont to the right.

    Robby

    Marvelle
    October 20, 2002 - 02:56 pm
    A simile is a comparison of one thing with another as in "He's as busy as a bee" and a Homeric simile is a build up of comparisons which leaves the listener/reader with a sense of elevation and a deeper sense/understanding of the object so described. For instance the making of Achilles' shield by the god Hephaestus (aka the Roman god Vulcan) is described in 5 pages of The Iliad. As Lessing says of the shield in "Laocoon"

    "First it is in the workshop of Hephaestus: then it glitters in the hands of Zeus; then it betokens the dignity of Hermes; not it is the baton of warlike Pelops; now the shepherd's staff of peace-loving Atreus.....and when Achilles swears by his scepter to avenge the scorn shown to him by Agamemnon, Homer gives us the history of this scepter....(Homer's concern was not so much descriptive but to) give us a vivid picure of the different kinds of power which these staffs symbolized."

    When Apollonius describes the members of the voyage out and their feats of courage and strength he builds one simile on top of another -- until Jason when Apollonius says that he didn't do anything heroic but his father owned the ship. That let down, that ironic betrayal of the Homeric simile, is what I called the dying fall. You are elevated simile by simile but instead of a smashing ending, you are let down. There is no heroic simile or comparison with Jason.

    A Homeric hero is larger than life, and a leader of men, who undertakes a task or quest to free his people from destruction, or subjugation, or death either physically or by his example of courage and search for spiritual salvation.

    The anti-hero is the opposite and is driven by the libido only. (The Golden Fleece will benefit Jason only.) The anti-hero attempts to thwart the hero and his actions. The anti-hero is enticing or he subverts without the victim realizing it.

    In this respect, one could say that Medea is literature's new hero, that Homeric heroes no longer held sway in the Ancient Greece of Apollonius' time, while Jason is the anti-hero who manipulates her to take actions which benefit only Jason. Herakles, the older style hero, disappears midway in the story while the anti-hero takes full control.

    Marvelle

    North Star
    October 20, 2002 - 04:14 pm
    Thanks Marvelle. That was very interesting.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 20, 2002 - 04:33 pm
    Marvelle:--So, if I can test myself using current day situations -- a Nobel prize winner is a Homeric hero and the CEO of a giant corrupt corporation is an anti-hero.

    And we can praise Olympic winner after winner and then come to an Olympic participant and say that he took steroids and that would be a "dying fall."

    Robby

    Marvelle
    October 20, 2002 - 08:21 pm
    ROBBY, you get an A+!

    Marvelle

    P.S. Medea wasn't quite the villain that modern people might take her for since in her day a woman's value and those of her children rested with a male protector or relative. Seduced by Jason to commit unthinkable acts, and then abandoned by him when a better opportunity arose (corporate ladder, you know) she took a heroic way out. A wife's status rises if there are children. A new wife tended to be jealous of her stepchildren who as first born would inherit property and titles. It was quite common for the new wife to poison or starve the stepchildren, or sell them into slavery -- anything to give the new wife's children preeminence. Medea had destroyed her former home, Jason had taken her new one and she, and the children, had nowhere to turn.

    Bubble
    October 21, 2002 - 02:54 am
    Sounds like an Islamic drama, when you put it that way!

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 21, 2002 - 03:43 am
    Durant now moves us onto what he has named the

    HOMERIC CIVILIZATION

    "How shall we reconstruct the life of Achaean Greece (1300-1100 B.C.) out of the poetry of its legends? Our chief reliance must be upon Homer, who may never have existed, and whose epics are younger by at least three centuries than the Achaean Age.

    "It is true tht archeology has surprised the archeologists by making realities of Troy, Mycenae, Tiryns, Cnossus, and other cities described in the Iliad, and by exhuming a Mycenaean civilization strangely akin to that which spontaneously takes form between the lines of Homer. Our inclination today is to accept as real the central characters of his fascinating tales. None the less, it is impossible to say how far the poems reflect the age in which the poet lived, rather than the age of which he writes.

    "We shall merely ask, then, what did Greek tradition, as gathered together in Homer, conceive the Homeric Age to be? In any case we shall have a picture of Hellas in buoyant transit from the Aegean culture to the civilization of historic Greece."

    An interesting question as posed by Durant. When we read poems which tell of ancient times, are these poems accurate? partly accurate? complete fantasy? Any other poets or poems in the minds of you folks here which tell of events which existed prior to the age of the poet? Do you read them as factual? How about "The Midnight Ride of Paul Revere?" Was Longfellow factual? Or did he bend the truth a bit in order to create a readable poem? Or was he telling the truth only as he knew it?

    Visualize yourself as an archeologist in the year 2102 who never heard of the American Revolution (or America for that matter) but unearthed this poem. Should he/she consider that poem factual or not?

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 21, 2002 - 09:30 am
    It depends on the archaeologist-interpreter. Some might; some might not, just as it has been in interpretation of stories in the Bible and other historical writings we have spoken of.

    Mal

    MaryPage
    October 21, 2002 - 09:34 am
    Very Good, ROBBY! Excellent examples. And BUBBLE, yes! Yes! Yes!

    Again we see that nothing really changes in the nature of our species and what we do. We make enormous advances in technology and science, but we do not alter at the core!

    Elizabeth N
    October 21, 2002 - 09:44 am
    The green quote, "The Achaeans look down upon literary culture as effeminate degeneration." reminds me of a recent incident. My son read a review of Abraham and went to our local bookseller to check it out. He is 52, an ironworker, lean and deeply bitten by time and weather and in fact, a dangerous looking man. Two ladies were so amazed to see him looking through a book that they interupted him to ask what a man such as he ("a working man") could be looking at. So some attitudes don't change much. (He looks dangerous because he's too damn old to be doing iron work and his back hurts all the time.)

    3kings
    October 21, 2002 - 12:48 pm
    ELIZABETH N Your son looks like a dangerous man? Dangerousness, like beauty, probably is in the eye of the beholder. In my younger days the Maori people tended to live in some areas, not in others. If a Maori man was seen in any of our major towns, and was dressed in working clothes, many would think him a dangerous looking individual.

    Today, with Maori folk being as mobile as Europeans, seeing then anywhere and everywhere, means that no one regards them with suspicion.

    I guess this is one way that the modern world differs markedly from the old. We travel so readily now, that insular communities are fast disappearing. American ' civilization' is possibly the first to become truly Global. This universality will, in a few more years,make the attitudes of us all inherently different to that which we had in the past.

    I know three Iranian families living here. They are clearly no different to any other people. They tell me there are political hot heads in their country,just as there are here in NZ, or America.

    Therefore to try and destroy terrorists by dropping bombs on Bagdad will be as futile as dropping bombs on Wellington, or Los Angeles. Other and more appropriate methods will have to be developed if we are to succeed.-- Trevor

    MaryPage
    October 21, 2002 - 01:11 pm
    Well said!

    North Star
    October 21, 2002 - 02:02 pm
    Homeric heros also had a personality fault in their otherwise perfect persona and it was this fault that destroyed them in the end. With Achilles, it was his heel which his mother didn't dip into the waters that protected the rest of his body. She held him by the heel and that part didn't get wet.

    Greek historians tried very hard to get their facts right. Dates and events and so on were as accurate as possible. However the historians wrote the speeches of their heroes by writing what the heroes would have said if they had the time to think it through and as if they were great orators.

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    October 21, 2002 - 03:13 pm
    "The Achaeans look down upon literary culture as effeminate degeneration."

    Elizabeth, I too thought about that quote. To think that this was written about a civilization that lived over 3000 years ago. If we want to know who is looked down upon today, it is easy.

    Let’s start with women, next would be every race other than Caucasian, then contrary to the Acheans, those without a high education. People living in Developing Countries, and low income people. Let us not forget the aged and the people who still practice their religion. Gays and lesbians and the obese people.

    From that we can draw the portrait of a person who is never looked down upon.

    A white heterosexual man in his thirties, who works out at the gym, has a degree from a renown University, is a highly successful business man or has a high position in a multinational in the Western world.

    But hay! If you recognize yourself in the above in one area, don’t feel bad, because I guess 99.9% of all people on earth are looked down upon for one reason or another.

    Eloïse

    Marvelle
    October 21, 2002 - 05:14 pm
    ROBBY, isn't the "literary culture" quote talking about the written word? Socrates would not write anything down for he felt words were meant to be spoken and passed from one person to another to maintain that social contact and a culture's traditions. Obviously the oral tradition has strong merits and still exists today, thankfully.

    Imagine however how Socrates would react to the electronic media, movies and television which is spoken or at least contains sound but is frequently isolating individuals one from the other. Still I'm glad we also have the written word and SN!

    Marvelle

    Justin
    October 21, 2002 - 05:37 pm
    What are the real as opposed to mythological elements in Homer's works? Did the Achaeans attack Troy by siege? Probably. Did the Achaeans win by subterfuge? Possibly. Did Odysseus have difficulty passing some islands on the way home? Possibly.The winds were not always favorable. Did some sexy sirens hold him and his men captive? Well, men will be men. Was Odyseus and his crew held by a cyclops. Not likely. Was his wife Penelope beset by suiters who thought Odysseus dead? Very likely. The condition was probably quite common for veteran's of a ten year war. Did Odysseus return home and kick out the suiters. Yes. This reaction was probably the reaction of many returning veterans. Did he do this by pulling a bow that others could not pull. Not likely.

    What is the message of Odysseus? Like Beowulf, it is the epic tale of hero. It is a mix of historical and mythological ideas woven into a tale of lasting interest to readers. It presents universally acceptable images of man's quest for accomplishment.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 21, 2002 - 06:17 pm
    Those of us who traveled through all the civilizations in Our Oriental Heritage will remember the importance of the BROWN quote in the Heading which begins with: "Four Elements constitute...." To all who are new here -- Durant concentrated on these four elements as he explained each of the civilizations. We are now about to examine "Economic Provision," the first one.

    "The Achaeans (i.e. the Greeks of the Heroic Age) impress us as less civilized than the Mycenaeans who preceded them, and more civilized that the Dorians who followed them. They are above all physical -- the men tall and powerful, the women ravishingly lovely in an unusually literal sense.

    "They use writing under protest, and the only literature they know is the martial lay and unwritten song of the troubadour. If we believe Homer, we must suppose that Zeus had realized in Achaean wociety the aspiration of the American poet who wrote that if he were God, he would make all men strong, and all women beautiful, and would then himself become a man.

    "Homeric Greece is kalligynaika -- it is a dream of fair women. The men too are handsome, with their long hair and their brave beards. The greatest gift that a man can give is to cut off his hair and lay it as an offering upon the funeral pyre of his friend.

    "Nakedness is not yet cultivated. Both sexes cover the body with a quadrangular garment folded over the shoulders, tied with a clasp pin, and reaching nearly to the knees. The women may add a veil or a girdle, and the men a loincloth -- which, as dignity increases, will evolve into drawers and trousers.

    "The well-to-do go in for costly robes, such as that which Priam brings humbly to Achilles in ransom for his son. The men are barelegged, the women bare-armed. Both wear shoes or sandals outdoors, but are usually barefoot within.

    "Both sexes wear jewelry, and the women and Paris anoint the body with 'rose-scented oil.'"

    Is this the way that many people in Asia Minor dressed or is that my faulty memory?

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 21, 2002 - 08:25 pm
    NY TIMES, WAS TROY A METROPOLIS? HOMER ISN'T TALKING

    Justin
    October 21, 2002 - 10:31 pm
    The British Museum's collection of Egyptian artifacts is now on exhibition locally. My wife's Women's Club is entertaining a docent to talk about the collection. The club would like to serve an Egyptian dish. Do any of you have a recipe you can recommend.

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 21, 2002 - 11:00 pm
    Egyptian recipe

    Bubble
    October 22, 2002 - 01:46 am
    Cheak peas puree (called Humous), Tehina sauce which is made from sesame seeds, Fallafel (fried tiny balls made of grounded chickpeas mixed with garlic and spices) Those are served as appetizers with pita bread.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 22, 2002 - 03:04 am
    "How do these men and women of the Achaean Greece live? Homer shows them to us tilling the soil, sniffing with pleasure the freshly turned dark earth, running their eyes with pride along the furrows they have ploughed so strait, winnowing the wheat, irrigating the fields, and banking up the streams against the winter floods. He makes us feel the despair of the peasant whose months of toil are washed out by 'the torrent at the full that in swift course shatters the dykes, neither can the long line of mounds hold it in, nor the walls of the fruitful orchards stay its sudden coming.' The villages are visited by wild beasts, and hunting is a necesssity before it becomes a sport.

    "The rich are great stockbreeders, raising cattle, sheep, pigs, goats, and horses. One Erichthonius keeps three thousand brood mares with their foals. The poor eat fish and grain, occasonally vegetables. Warriors and the rich rely upon great portions of roast meat. They breakfast on meat and wine. Odysseus and his swineherd eat, between them, a small roast pig for luncheon, and a third of a five-year-old hog for dinner. They have honey instead of sugar, meat fat instead of butter. Instead of bread, they eat cakes of grain, baked large and thin on a plate of iron or a hot stone.

    "The diners do not recline, as the Athenians will do, but sit on chairs -- not at a central table but along the walls, with little tables between the seats. There are no forks, spoons, or napkins, and only such knives as the guests may carry. Eating is managed with the fingers.

    "The staple drink, even among the poor and among children, is diluted wine."

    Any comments by you culinary artists or etiquette experts?

    Robby

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    October 22, 2002 - 03:41 am
    Mal's Egyptian recipe looks good, I printed it. Humous that Bubble mentioned made with chick peas is very nutritious because of its high protein content. I have had that dish in Indian restaurants here, it's nice if not too hot and spicy, eaten with rice it is excellent.

    I can't imagine eating everything with your fingers, that must be a very messy way to eat. I understand having wine to wash all that meat down would be needed because it promotes digestion, but to give it to children instead of milk? Yet the "The men are tall and powerful, the women ravishingly lovely............The villages are visited by wild beasts, and hunting is a necesssity before it becomes a sport." They didn't have to go to the supermarket for groceries, the food came to them!!!!

    Eloïse

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 22, 2002 - 03:46 am
    When I was in grad school, a post-grad student who had two Ph.D. degrees (Psychology and Statistics) and who had immigrated here from India became a close friend of mine and ultimately invited me for dinner at his home. This was a rare invitation. All of his female relatives sat at the other end of the table and ate with their fingers. In deference to my Western habits, he placed knife and fork at my setting. I decided to use the fork because (in my mind) to eat with my fingers would have created problems of various sorts.

    Robby

    tooki
    October 22, 2002 - 06:24 am
    If all the men are handsome, the women beautiful, and, I presume, the children above average, these folks sure are an advertisement for the Dr. Atkins diet.

    Bubble
    October 22, 2002 - 08:55 am
    Eating with fingers is just a habit. Humous paste sprinkled with olive oil and spices is eaten from a comunal dish in the middle of the table and "mopped" in turn with a piece of pita bread. Couscous also is eaten like that in vilaages, the grain pressed together to form a ball before popping it into the mouth. You never ate grilled chicken with your fingers? or Ox tail? At the end of the meal you just wipe your fingers on a wet cloth.

    moxiect
    October 22, 2002 - 09:52 am
    Eloise - Growing up with my grandparents it was not unusal for me to have a shot of wine at the dinner table. They were the first generation here from the "old country" and believe if wine or beer were on the table the children could have a taste!

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 22, 2002 - 02:14 pm
    "The father administers and controls the land, but he cannot sell it. In the Iliad great tracts are called the King's Commons or Demesne (temenos). In effect it belongs to the community, and in its fields any man may pasture his flocks. In the Odyssey these common lands are being divided, and sold to -- or appropriated by -- rich or strong individuals. The commons disappears in ancient Greece precisely as in modern England.

    "The craftsmen are freemen, never slaves as in classic Greece. Peasants may in emergency be conscripted to labor for the king, but we do not hear of serfs bound to the soil. Slaves are not numerous, nor is their position degraded. They are mostly female domestics, and occupy a position in effect as high as that of household servants today, except that they are bought and sold for long terms instead of for precariously brief engagements.

    "On occasion they are brutally treated. Normally they are accepted as members of the family, are cared for in illness or depression or old age, and may develop a humane relation of affection with master or mistress. Nausicaa helps her bondwomen to wash the family linen in the stream, plays ball with them, and altogether treats them as companions. If a slave woman bears a son to her master, the child is usually free.

    "Any man, however, may become a slave, through capture in battle or in piratical raids. This is the bitterest aspect of Achaean life."

    Such is the life of the male.

    Robby

    North Star
    October 22, 2002 - 03:13 pm
    Justin: Here are lots of choices: Egyptian recipes

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 22, 2002 - 03:45 pm
    POLITICAL ENTITIES. AECHAEAN CITIES

    Persian
    October 22, 2002 - 04:38 pm
    Thanks, Robby, for the heads up about the Egyptian recipes. They are all very familiar in our household, some enhanced for special guests or to celebrate particular events. Mostly healthy, nutritious (except the fried foods) and a treat for guests who are unaccustomed to this type of food. When we set a "special table," we adorn the table with small family treasures - hand-carved wooden bowls containing wonderful spices, which send their aroma throughout the room; colorful fabric napkins with Egyptian-inspired pharonic designs, and tiny silver bells with brightly-colored tassles attached to small models of the ancient falucas, which still ply the Nile River.

    Tejas
    October 22, 2002 - 04:46 pm
    Here is a story that I do not recall reading in any history. Someone like National Geographic did a video on the history of Athens. The source of their power was a large silver mine that was discovered near Athens. They were wise enough to elect an admiral who put all the money into a fleet which defeated the Persians and built an empire. Pericles squandered it in his ambition.

    JR

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 22, 2002 - 06:18 pm
    Tejas:--Why are you in the past? Stay with us here in the present!

    Robby

    tooki
    October 22, 2002 - 06:33 pm
    Durant says, "Any man may become a slave, through capture in battle...." Where did the "slave woman," bearing her master's children come from? Did Durant really think "the child is usually free?" Impregnating slaves was a fast, cheap way to increase holdings. Ah, the handsome, beautiful Achaeans.

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 22, 2002 - 07:03 pm
    ARGONAUT CITY UNEARTHED?

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 23, 2002 - 04:45 pm
    "The Achaean culture is a step backward, a transition between the brilliant Aegean civilization and the Dark Age that will follow the Dorian conquest. Homeric life is poor in art, rich in action. It is unmeditative, buoyant, swift. It is too young and strong to bother much about manners or philosohy. Probably we misjudge it by seeing it in the violent crisis or disorderly aftermath of war.

    "There are, it is true, many qualities and scenes. Even the warriors are generous and affectionate. Between parent and child there is a love as profound as it is silent. Odysseus kisses the heads and shoulders of the members of his family when, after their long separation, they recognize him, and in like manner they kiss him. Helen and Menelaus weep when they learn that this noble lad, Telemachus, is the son of the lost Odysseus who fought so valiantly for them. Agamemnon hmself is capable of tears so abundant that they remind Homer of a stream pouring over rocks.

    "Friendships are firm among the heroes, though possibly a degree of sexual inversion enters into their almost neurotic attachment of Achilles to Patroclus, especially to Patroclus dead. Hospitality is lavish, for 'from Zeus are all strangers and beggars.'

    "Maids bathe the foot or the body of the guest, anoint him with unquents, and may give him fresh garments. He receives food and lodging if he needs them, and perhaps a gift. 'Lo,' says 'fair-cheeked Helen,' as she places a costly robe in Telemachus' hands, 'I too give thee this gift, dear child, a remembrance of the hands of Helen, against the day of thy longed-for marriage, for thy bride to wear.'

    "It is a picture that revels to us the human tenderness and fine feeling that in the Iliad must hide themselves under the panoply of war."

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 23, 2002 - 05:42 pm
    HOMER TO HIPPOCRATES

    Justin
    October 23, 2002 - 06:24 pm
    Thank you ladies for your advice. We are going to try Sea Bubble's Humous with Pita bread and some fruit dishes with grapes etc.

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 24, 2002 - 09:07 am
    Why has it suddenly become so hard for us to discuss Ancient Greece, a primary seat of Western ideas and democracy? I know there are people here who are very familiar with the Iliad and the Odyssey, which I am not. Where are they and their opinions?

    Links about this time in Greek history are hard to find, except for those about Homer. I found one last night which dealt with morality, but because of the illustrations (from amphorae and vases) about which there might be some sensitivity, I am unable to post it here. Let's get something going, okay?

    Mal

    MaryPage
    October 24, 2002 - 09:37 am
    Well, Mal, I have studied The Iliad and The Odyssey, as well as Virgil's The Aeneid. Actually, I thought them loads of fun and enjoyed every bit of them. Had fun, as I recall, fancying myself in the role of Dido, and wrote some adolescent poetry of my own imagining her feelings. I have seen all the movies, and particularly enjoyed the one with Kathryn Hepburn. Was it titled "WOMEN OF TROY"? I think so, and I think it is shown about once a year on one or another of the arty channels. I have a book around here somewhere, unless I gave it to my favorite soul-mate granddaughter, that is all about the women. Yet I feel I have nothing to add to this discussion because (1) I am assuming everyone in here is as familiar as I with this subject and (2) if not, I do not wish to foist my enthusiasm for it upon anyone else!

    MaryPage
    October 24, 2002 - 09:52 am
    Got up on a ladder and found it! EURIPIDES. I have a book of 4 of his plays, put out in paperback by Penguin Books, if anyone is interested. The play from which the movie was made, The Women of Troy is in this volume, and I highly recommend it. Makes one wonder if Euripides was not a case of a woman masquerading as a man! Women had to in those days, if they were to be successful. Otherwise, they were dismissed as irrelevant. Anyway, it makes for great reading! I am pretty sure I remember that Hepburn played Hecuba, or Hecabe. Cassandra is my favorite character in this play. And of course I just adore the chorus of captive Trojan women. Yep, Euripides's plays all had "Greek choruses!"

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    October 24, 2002 - 10:04 am
    Sorry Mal but I am totally ignorant of Ancient Greece, I learn from all of you.

    Other commitments is taken 90% of my time right now, but I am listening, believe me.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 24, 2002 - 10:14 am
    We can always discontinue the discussion if there is not sufficient interest. I am merely the Discussion Leader. It is the quantity and quality of the participants which determine the forum's success.

    Robby

    moxiect
    October 24, 2002 - 10:25 am
    Rob I have been so busy learning about Ancient Greece that I have been left speechless. Yes, I read the Illiad, Odyessy and the Anead but there is so much more to investigate and learn. I am enjoying all the discussions and links, others have stated what I percieve so much better than I could that I have kept silient.

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 24, 2002 - 10:56 am
    Green quote above:
    "Even war does not thwart the Greek passion for games."

    Did war ever stop the American passion for games?

    Mal

    MaryPage
    October 24, 2002 - 11:02 am
    Not that I've noticed. Games have been cancelled due to War, but for reasons other than the public's enjoyment of them.

    I would just hate to see this discussion close down! It has been my incentive to actually read, in proper order, that set of books on my shelves!

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 24, 2002 - 11:12 am
    "In the Achaean culture children and adults engage in skillful and difficult contests, apparently with fairness and good humor. Penelope's wuitors play draughts, and throw the disk or javelin. The Phaeacian hosts of Odysseus play at quoits, and a strange medley of ball and dance. When the dead Patroclus has been cremated, according to Achaean custom, games are played that set a precedent for Olympia -- foot races, disk-throwing, javelin-throwing, archery, wrestling, chariot races, and single combat fully armed. All in excellent spirit, except that only the ruling class may enter, and only the gods may cheat."

    I've been wondering how one may enter single combat fully armed with good humor.

    Robby

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    October 24, 2002 - 12:27 pm
    HERE You will see the size of the hippodrome in Constantinople. It could hold 100,000 spectators. Do we have such large size arenas? I don't know, but just to show that if they built this on such a large scale, it means that the city at the time could have had around 2 million people?

    North Star
    October 24, 2002 - 02:09 pm
    I took a Greek Classics course at university. Our prof had personal experiance digging in Greece. He said they'd set out from a place and trek down a road. When they were hungry for lunch, they assumed that the ancient Greeks also got hungry for a meal. So they dug for stopping places and found them. He said that from the air, you could tell where the earth had been disturbed because it was a slightly different colour so they would dig there too.

    I did take a bit of Homer, learned about Socrates and Plato, read the plays by Euripides, Aristophanes (the jokes are still funny) and Sophocles. We read Herodotus and Greek history. We studied architecture, the evolution of sculpture stiles and paintings. We learned that perspective in art was quite shallow, about 12 feet deep. We didn't shy away from the vases with the naked competitors even though it was the uptight nineteen-fifties.

    Perhaps what we could do here is focus on an aspect of ancient Greece such as the art or plays and see if we can figure out how this reflects everyday life. I would be hard pressed to find my text books - I likely gave or sold them to students a year behind me but I'll dig around.

    Our provincial museum has a display of 500 artifacts from ancient Rome. Much of it is provenance unknown which means that it's been in a lot of places and while it can be dated, its exact origins are unknown. A lot of it consists of everyday objects used in people's homes. The articles didn't come from famous people's homes although my son, who knows what he is talking about, said that the cooking utensils had belonged to someone rich. The last time I checked the webpage for the exhibit was still being built. I know this information is about Rome but the Greeks had built temples in Sicily and southern Italy.

    North Star
    October 24, 2002 - 02:16 pm
    What I noticed when we studied ancient civilizations was that quite often, when they were invaded by nomadic tribes or the like, the new group would drop in civilized manners until the people mixed. A new gene pool seemed to result in a better (golden?) age. After the Romans were invaded by the Vandals, Visigoths and so on, after some centuries the Renaissance resulted. I don't think this always happened but did in some instances.

    Since this is my theory, you won't find it in any textbooks - it was just an observation. But it's interesting that various groups have had golden ages, so to speak. Maybe America's was the Age of Invention from the 1800s on to this past mid century. Again, this is my opinion, not from a book.

    tooki
    October 24, 2002 - 03:01 pm
    maybe it's Durant. His take on sexuality, both heterosexual and homosexual is, in my opinion, somewhat quaint. He talks about "sexual inversion" and "neurotic attachment" in discussing the relationship of Achilles and Patroclus. That certainly colors one's perception of the work. Durant is courtly and gentlemenly in talking about the women, seemingly not wanting to say less than flattering things about them. Should this discussion group ignore the sexual element in Greek life? Adopt Durant's positions? That is, accept what he says as descriptive about morality? Beats me! He was, after all, writing in 1939. (Copyright in my edition.) I like his writing so well and the sweep of his views that I think I'll just ignore his quaint sexual attitudes.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 24, 2002 - 04:45 pm
    Durant continues:--"As a prize for the chariot race Achilles offers 'a woman skilled in fair handiwork' and on the funeral pyre horses, dogs, oxen, sheep, and human beings are sacrificed to keep the dead patroclus well tended and fed.' Achilles treats Priam with fine courteesy, but only after dragging Hector's body in mangled ignominy around the pyre.

    "When a town is captured, the men are killed or sold into slavery. The women are taken as concubines if they are attractive, as slaves if they are not. Piracy is still a respected occupation. Even kings organize marauding expeditions, plunder towns and villages, and enslave their population. Says Thucydides, 'Indeed, this came to be the main source of livelihood among the early Hellenes, no disgrace being yet attached to such an occupation,' but some glory. Very much as, in our times, great nations may conquer and subjugate defenseless peoples without loss of dignity or righteousness.

    "Odysseus is insulted when he is asked is he a merchant, 'mindful of the gains of his greed,' but he tells with pride how, on his return from Troy, his provisions having run low, he sacked the city of Ismarus and stored his ships with food. Or how he ascended the river Adgyptus 'to pillage the splended fields, to carry off the women and little children, and to kill the men.'

    "No city is safe from sudden and unprovoked attack."

    Could we call them preemtive strikes?

    Robby

    Justin
    October 24, 2002 - 04:51 pm
    The work in the Homeric period is of course limited to Homer's view of the period. Many think his social descriptions reflect his own period and not the period he writes about. When did Homer live? Some where between the end of the Trojan war and the ninth century. That is a lapse of about three centuries. Euripides, on the other hand was writing in the middle of the fifth century.

    We will reach the classical period eventually and when we do Euripides will be quite appropriate. Some of the writing of this period deals with the Trojan War and perhaps that is ok to fit in here. Consider the sacrifice of Iphigenia by Agamemnon. It was performed to convince the Gods that the Greeks were serious about the venture and therefore the gods should return the winds to allow the Greek ships to sail again. They were so serious about the venture they were prepared to sacrifice the chief's daughter to bring the winds back.

    Sacrifice of one's child to accomplish a purpose by propitiating the gods is not something new. We find it in the old testament with Abraham sacrificing Issaac, the boy of his old age and the first of Sarah, his wife, to propitiate the gods. We know that human sacrifice occurred in Crete to propitiate the gods that controlled earthquakes.

    Some where, somehow, people learned that nothing is free. A price had to be paid for benefits and some times the price was impossible to bear.

    Justin
    October 24, 2002 - 05:01 pm
    Durant's quaint descriptions of sexual customs are the product of quaint sexual mores of the 1930's. We have seen homosexuality through out the Oriental period. Remember the relationship of Akhnatun to the young boy he had selected to succeed him and the efforts of Nefertiti to unseat him. If Mal has uncovered some vases with sexual references, they are expressions of the period and we should not deny ourselves the opportunity to examine them. Are we to look at only the non sexual side of Greek life? I don't think we are so sterile as to restrict ourselves to only a select portion of life. Greek views of sex are an essential part of their culture. Are we?

    Marvelle
    October 25, 2002 - 05:43 am
    NORTH STAR, I've nominated Aeschylus' "Oresteia" for a Great Books discussion. This is the second time I've nominated it and it hasn't generated any interest. I thought it would be a good trilogy to read and that we could study the techniques of Ancient Greek theatre. If it ever seems a go, I'll post it here.

    Marvelle

    tooki
    October 25, 2002 - 06:14 am
    I'm with Justin. Bring on the pictures, Mal. Those with acute sensibilities may avert their eyes. In the introduction to "Our Oriental Heritage," Durant, after apologizing for his "compulsion to try and see things whole," hopes that his endeavor will "lure some rash spirts into its fatal depths." Charming. This includes me; I hope it includes other members of this discussion group. I, too, aspire to (live long enough) read all volumes in the set.

    Tejas
    October 25, 2002 - 07:32 am
    tooki, this is a new century and Freud is dead. It is time to turn the page and start a new chapter. Gore Vidal has a very interesting quote in his 1500 page book of essays - "People in the 21st century will probably regard pschoanalysis as quaint as phrenology (a pseudoscience that judged character by the bumbs on the skull) was to the the 20th century."

    JR

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 25, 2002 - 11:32 am
    Good! We now have Tooki signed up for all eleven volumes. And I think MaryPage also so stated. Anyone else?

    And -- looking ahead -- I haven't read any of the subsequent volumes but, based on what we read in Our Oriental Heritage, from the earliest civilization on, I would assume that there will not be a single civilization ahead without sexual and religious activity taking place.

    Robby

    MaryPage
    October 25, 2002 - 11:53 am
    Well, Good Grief, ROBBY! Volume Four, the only one I can truthfully claim to have read all the way through from start to finish previously, is all about religion! And I think we are now being very grown up about just talking about what was and comparing it with what is and acknowledging the derivatives, etc. As for sex, I think we are all old enough to understand what that subject is all about. Sex never changes, but cultural differences dictate which way the noses twitch regarding both the subject and the practices. I don't see why we cannot each twitch our own noses at what we read and then discuss here, without going into any tizzy fits.

    I confess my nose twitches really fast and my voice rises really high and loud over such things as a man being able to declare himself divorced from his wife, but she never being able to do the same! I can think of a few other examples of discrimination; Oh Yes! But I do not feel affronted by frank discussion of different cultural practices.

    Faithr
    October 25, 2002 - 12:00 pm
    In the organization of a civilization sexual mores` are very important in the long run. Not the day to tday stuff in private but the sort of state approved mores`mean something to the way the culture forms and plays itself out(or stays as part of the culture). At the age of 75 I doubt that much would shock me except when it involves murder and sexual exploit. That still shocks me.

    I have seen much greek art and the children playing leap frog around the soup bowls too. And they are not exactly children, and they are not playing leap frog. This comes from the Movie The Birdcage which was a comedy to end all comedies.

    To truly examine history I think we must look at all aspects of a culture whether it fits in with our notion of what is normal and acceptable or not. After all I dont think it is acceptable to cut off peoples heads and serve them up on platters but still I read the bible and the story of John and the king who wanted to please his daughter Solomi. Faith

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 25, 2002 - 12:04 pm
    Leap frog around the soup bowls! And I thought I knew all the games.

    Gosh, what I have learned in this discussion group! And not all from Durant either.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 25, 2002 - 02:19 pm
    Believe me, there are people in SeniorNet who are not as open-minded as you all seem to be. It is for their sake and sensibilities that I do not post the link to an article called The Ideal Prepuce in Ancient Greece and Rome.

    Among Greeks and Roman males, the length and size of the prepuce was considered to be a measure of male beauty and virility. The kynodesme, a thin leather thong which pulled the penis up against the body and by means of tying the erotic prepuce to hide the glans from view, was used as a protector of public morals.

    The first link below depicts the daisy chain Faith mentioned. The second shows the poet, Anacreon, wearing the kynodesme. I always thought classical statues of males were misrepresented, but now I see that the public and I are being protected.



    YOUNG GREEKS



    POET ANACREON

    Justin
    October 25, 2002 - 02:43 pm
    That's the longest prepuce I have ever seen and the Hebrews chop these things off. Well, you say tomato and I say tomato.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 25, 2002 - 02:52 pm
    So much for that area of morals. Let us move on.

    "To this lighthearted relish for robbery and slaughter the Achaeans add an unabased mendacity. Odysseus can hardly speak without lying, or act without treachery. Having captured the Trojan scout Dolon, he and Diomed promise him life if he will give them the information they require. He does, and they kill him.

    "It is true that the other Achaeans do not quite equal Odysseus in dishonesty, but not because they would not. They envy and admire him, and look up to him as a model character. The poet who pictures him considers him a hero in every respect. Even the goddess Athena praises him for his lying, and counts this among the special charms for which she loves him.

    "She tells him, 'Cunning must he be and knavish who would go beyond thee in all manner of guile, aye, though it were a god that met thee. Bold man, crafty in counsel, insatiate in deceit, not even in thine own land, it seems, wast thou to cease from guile and deceitful tales, which thou lovest from the bottom of thine heart.'"

    Perhaps we should praise our politicians more than we do."

    Robby

    MaryPage
    October 25, 2002 - 03:06 pm
    I have to laugh, not at the pictures, but at myself, because the thought that flitted through my head after viewing both of MAL's links was: "Boy, it's all Greek to me!"

    Then I realized what I had thought and guffawed at my totally unintended pun!

    I could not perceive the "thong" and I thought the bowl painting largely imaginative. Doubtless a male artist, said she cattily.

    We have been so chatty in here about our fascination at discovering how much tribal groups moved about and melded with other tribal groups all over this globe, thus bringing home to us how totally mixed our own blood and how we are all related. Well, there is a new book out which critics are praising. MAPPING HUMAN HISTORY: Discovering the Past Through Our Genes by Steve Olson, published by Houghton Miflin. Purports to take us through 150,000 years (yep! One Hundred & Fifty THOUSAND years!) from our beginnings to today. According to Science, we all have a "First Mother", but there is no discovery of such a thing as a "First Father", so perhaps the prehistoric and far, far ancient history humans with their mother goddess worship had it right after all!

    Just having fun here, but it sounds good to me!

    MaryPage
    October 25, 2002 - 03:09 pm
    Great comment, ROBBY!

    North Star
    October 25, 2002 - 06:29 pm
    Robby your #644. I haven't seen the word 'mendacity' used since Big Daddy used it in Cat on a Hot Tin Roof. I thought it was a Southern U.S. expression but Durant used it. With all due respect, I agree with Justin that Durant is a little thin when it comes to descriptions and understanding of real people.

    I have dug out two books to help me. From the Time/Life Series of books from about twenty-five years ago, Classical Greece. As well, I have Greece, a Short History by M.A. Hamilton, Oxford Press, dated 1926 so he was a contemporary of the Durants. This was my history textbook for the Greek Classics course I took.

    The Classical Greece timeline puts Homer in the eighth century BCE. I am paraphrasing from the Greek history book about the people in Homer's poems. It says: later Greeks of Homer's time believed their fathers were barbarians. What Homer wrote about were the stories and myths that had been handed down.

    All the ancient knowledge and civilization had been lost because of tides of invasions over many years of nomadic barbarians from the north. These barbarians conquered and ruled the earlier populations. The groups mixed over the years. Psistratus, a hated tyrant, created the Pan Athenaic festival(549 BCE)and one of the events at it was the reading of Homer's poems. I am assuming that reading his poems had been going on for a long time and was considered a form of entertainment.

    It looks like Durant believed every word of Homer's was the literal truth. But it may be that the stories contained all these grisly deaths, enslavements, heroic deeds may been what people believed happened but didn't necessarily happen. Just my opinion.

    And this neat little bit of info: in one of the six layers of Troy, some white jade was found. It could only have come from China.

    Being a pirate was considered a better profession than being a merchant. Merchants were considered greedy.

    I think it would be neat to read a play or two or dig a bit into Greek philosophy.

    North Star
    October 25, 2002 - 06:34 pm
    Marvelle9: Oresteia sounds like an interesting proposition. I can believe there would be few takers. I haven't read it. I believe the Greeks developed all the variables of storylines that are still used today. There are some basic ones like boy meets girl, boy loses girl, boy regains girl, and so on.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 26, 2002 - 03:18 am
    "In truth, we ourselves are drawn to this heroic Munchausen of the ancient world. We discover some likeable traits in him, and in the hardy and subtle people to which he belongs. He is a gentle father, and in his own kingdom a just ruler, who 'wrought no wrong in deed or word to any man in the land.' Says his swinehered, 'Never again shall I find a master so kind, how far soever I go, not though I come again to the bones of my father and mother.!' We envy Odysseus his 'form like unto the immortals,' his frame so athletic that though nearing fifty he throws the disk father than any of the Phaeacian youths. We admire his 'steadfast heart,' his 'wisdom like to Jove's,' and our sympathy goes out to him when, in his despair of ever seeing again 'the smoke leaping up from his own land,' he steels himself with words that old Socrates loved to quote:--'Be patient now, my soul. Thou has endured still worse than this.'

    "He is a man of iron in body and mind, yet every inch human, and therefore forgiveable."

    Does this remind us of anyone else we know -- either in fiction or in actuality?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 26, 2002 - 07:46 am
    Click onto BARON MUNCHAUSEN to learn the difference between lying and story-telling.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 26, 2002 - 09:11 am
    "Odysseus lies to the Cyclops Polyphemus:
    about the loss of his ship
    about his identity ('Noman' = 'Outis' or 'Metis' in Greek)
    Odysseus and Athena lie to each other
    Odysseus lies to Eumaeus the swineherd
    Odysseus lies to Penelope
    Odysseus lies to Laertes"

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 26, 2002 - 09:28 am
    Does the average American actually tell 200 lies a day? Click HERE to learn all you ever wanted to know about lying.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 26, 2002 - 09:42 am
    I'd have to lie if I were to say I told 200 lies every day. However, I think we humans tell lies fairly often without knowing we're lying.

    Mal

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    October 26, 2002 - 12:06 pm
    My son-in-law is a film producer and I gave him that link because he is interested in making a series about lies.

    If I told 200 lies a day, I would be talking non-stop at least for 4 hours and I don't know who I could inflict this upon in the course of a day. It's a lie to say that most people lie 200 times a day. Only politicians have time for that.

    MaryPage
    October 26, 2002 - 02:13 pm
    I have always tried not to lie, as I was brought up in the West Point DUTY! HONOR! COUNTRY! tradition. However, I have lied.

    Last night I marked up my book a bit just to throw in some comments to prove I am following along and thinking about what we are reading. Page 48:
    Hospitality is lavish, for "from Zeus are all strangers and beggars."This made me think about the many, many cultures where this is still the case today. Afghanistan is like that, only the stranger is from Mohammad. Ireland is like that, only the stranger may be Jesus in disguise (there is a famous Irish Blessing to this affect). I'm sure you can think of others.

    Page 52:
    kill the messenger.Makes you wonder if this is where the phrase we use today comes from! I refer, of course, to "don't kill the messenger!"

    Page 55:
    some such story was used to make the adventure digestible for the common Greek; men must have phrases if they are to give their lives.Oh, this has been ever true! The thousands or millions of men making up the fighting forces have usually believed their cause to be Just, without having a clue as to what was really going on. In my own time, the Japanese people come to mind. They were certainly led astray in starting the Pacific War in WWII. Historians have usually been able to dissect the past and discover for our edification what events conspired to bring about various wars. One wishes one could be around in 50 years to know what they have to say about the proposed battle against Iraq.

    Well, if this is the sort of feed back ROBBY and MAL are urging, I will keep it up. Otherwise, I'll slouch back in my chair and listen.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 26, 2002 - 02:57 pm
    MaryPage:--

    It has been our practice since SofC began not only to "read" Durant as one would read about past events in a history book but to help ourselves to better understand Mankind by comparing what we in the 21st century do to the behaviors of those personages millennia ago.

    "Odysseus can hardly speak without lying, or act without treachery." This is a man who was well respected in those days "despite" his "failings." Perhaps we can better understand that by examining similar people in our culture.

    Robby

    North Star
    October 26, 2002 - 03:59 pm
    There are lies, damn lies and statistics. I didn't make that up. Do you lie if you don't say something. What if the lady sitting next to you looks horrible in her bright pink sweater. Is it a lie to just say, Hi, nice to see you and think about the sweater.

    My mother used to tell me that telling just part of the truth was enough so people's feelings wouldn't be hurt. You could say, 'that's a lovely hat' and not say 'but not on you'.

    One person's truth might not be another person's truth. That's why disputes can end up in court. Both sides could be telling their version of the truth.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 26, 2002 - 04:16 pm
    "The Achaean lives in a disordered, harassed, humgry world, where every man must be his own policeman, ready with arrow and spear, and a capacity for looking calmly at flowing blood. Odysseus explains, 'A ravening belly no man can hide. Because of it are the benched ships made ready that bear evil to foeman over the unresting sea.'

    "Since the Achaean knows little security at home, he respects none abroad. Every weakling is fair play. The supreme virtue, in his view, is a brave and ruthless intelligence. Virtue is literally virtus, manliness -- arete, the quality of Ares or Mars.

    "The good man is not one that is gentle and forbearing, faithful and sober, industrious and honest. He is simply one who fights bravely and well. A bad man is not one that drinks too much. lies, murders, and betrays. He is one that is cowardly, stupid, or weak.

    "There were Nietzscheans long before Nietzsche, long before Thrasymachus, in the lusty immaturity of the European world."

    This puts a whole new light on "lying." This gives us pause to examine our own civilization and what we consider moral. We do not have to be our own policeman and have to look at flowing blood. Or is that about to change?

    Robby

    Justin
    October 26, 2002 - 04:19 pm
    Of course we all lie. Probably not 200 times a day. Lying is a social grace as well as a curse. One lies to make another feel comfortable and confident in conversation. One lies to enhance one's esteem in another's view. One lies to protect the ego against damage. The poor down-trodden little thing. One lies for laughter. One lies to debase oneself and to enhance another to improve a relationship.

    Does the statitician lie when he says the mean is a good representative number? No, because he has the power to tell one how good the mean is. He says it falls within a range x percent of the time. The liar doesn't ordinarily do that. Lies tend to be black and white things like pregnancies.(except when males need a little incentive).

    tooki
    October 26, 2002 - 09:32 pm
    We no longer need to be our own policemen, killing those whom we feel threaten us, because now the government protects us, sparing us the need to look at flowing blood, either our own or others. Is the cost of relinquishing these dubious "freedoms" a loss of other freedoms? Is this a fair exchange? I think it's a good exchange, but it may change because it is no longer clear that the government can always protect us. What does it means that the sale of guns has increased since 911?

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 27, 2002 - 03:40 am
    Durant continues (see GREEN quotes above):--

    "Achaean society is tempered with the beauty and anger of woman, and the fierce tenderness of parental love. Theoretically the father is sumpreme. He may take as many concubines as he likes. He may offer them to his guests. He may expose his children on the mountaintops to die, or slaughter them on the altars of the thirsty gods.

    "Such paternal omnipotence does not necessarily imply a brutal society, but only one in which the organization of the state has not yet gone far enough to preserve social order -- and in which the family, to create such order, needs the powers that will later be appropriated by the state in a nationalization of the right to kill. As social organization advances, paternal authority and family unity decrease, freedom and individualism grow.

    In practice the Achaean male is usually reasonable, listens patiently to demestic eloquence, and is devoted to his children."

    Are we seeing here the gradual progress of Mankind to civilization? Durant is talking about a needed balance of social order between the state and the family. Where does the power to kill lie? With the family? With the government (if one exists)? With both? With neither? If a government weakens, is it the duty of the family to take over its powers? If family life disintegrates, should a government take over? And if it is the family which takes over the necessary values, who in the family (father? mother?) should make the decisions?

    Robby

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    October 27, 2002 - 05:42 am
    8 very interesting questions Robby and I would like to have the time to carefully look at every one of them, perhaps later.

    MaryPage
    October 27, 2002 - 05:48 am
    Page 50: he may expose his children on the mountaintops to die How old is this? Amazing! The Incas did this, apparently for religious reasons. Other cultures have done it for religious reasons, as well. The Chinese have done it (not necessarily on mountaintops) to get rid of unwanted girl children. Many cultures have done it, again mountaintops not a necessary component, to dispose of flawed infants. How old is this!

    Page 51:
    cooking is normally left to men.I like that!

    Page 58:
    and is about to kill him when Poseidon rescues him for Virgil's purposes. Hey guys, Durant is making a joke! Same paragraph, I remember getting a charge out of this as a teenager: Athena lays Ares low with a stone, Way to go, Gal!

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 27, 2002 - 06:08 am
    You must be full of adrenalin this morning, MaryPage. You are commenting on Page 58 and we are only on Page 50!

    Robby

    3kings
    October 27, 2002 - 11:14 am
    MARY PAGE asks,when refering to the abandonment of children, 'How old is this?' It is as old as mankind, I think. It's motivation is, today, mostly economic, while in earlier ages there was clearly a religious element.

    It certainly is practiced here in NZ, and I would think, in Annapolis. It is, these days, often refered to as 'Abortion'.-- Trevor

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    October 27, 2002 - 03:21 pm
    1) We are seeing progress of mankind through the struggle of finding balance between what is acceptable and what is not for society. Many elements influence human behavior, the way they think, react, and what they believe in. Achieving the ideal balance is a huge task in a world with so many people.

    2) Where does social order between the state and the family lie? With both, state laws are made for everybody’s well being by men and women who have values transmitted to them while they were growing up in their family. Social order is essential for the perpetuation of the mankind.

    3) When the government weakens (like today) and people feel it becomes their responsibility to protect themselves, their possessions and their territory because law enforcement agencies don’t, they own weapons and will use them if they need to. (today, more people own guns than ever before).

    4) When family life disintegrates, someone has to take over where children are involved and the government should step in if both parents cannot do the job.

    5) When there is unity in a family, both parents take important decisions. If there is no unity, it doesn’t matter which one makes the decision, because the child will take the side of the parent where his loyalties are until he feels he can make his own decisions regardless of what either parent thinks.

    Eloïse

    Justin
    October 27, 2002 - 03:25 pm
    Well, the abortion issue was bound to come up some time so we might as well deal with it here. It is not quite the same thing as putting a live infant out in the weather to die. There is an element cowardice in that act. The parents can't kill the child directly so they expose it to the weather to do the job. The babe dies slowly or the animals eat it alive.

    If the parents feel they must kill an infant it is a simple thing to do painlessly in a few seconds without exposure. It is hard to believe that a mother would expose a child just after birth but it must have happened quite frequently. The male was clearly the dominant decision maker in many of these cases. But some women have done the killing in recent years by leaving their babies in dumpsters.

    I think birth control has helped greatly to aleviate the problem of unwanted children. Unfortunately, our government, has not understood that and has not been supportive of groups like Planned Parenthood that bring such measures to countries relying upon U.S. dollars. Republican "Gag Rules" are quite short sighted.

    Abortion is quite another thing. I support a Pro-Choice position because I think the decision to keep or to interupt a pregnancy is rightfully that of the pregnant woman. It is certainly not in the purview of some congressman. The father of the embryo may have an advisory role, if he is a responsible person, but the decision to abort or not to abort is clearly a woman's right.

    It is not a decision to be envied. The average woman will agonize over such a decision and include alternatives in the process. I realize there are women who will use the right to treat abortion as a form of birth control but I cannot deprive rational responsible women of the right to choose because some are irresponsible. (By the same token I cannot deprive Americans of the right to vote because many neglect to exercize the right.)

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 27, 2002 - 03:29 pm
    Please keep in mind that sensitive subjects can be discussed here so long as there is no proselytizing. Each of us is entitled to our own opinion so long as we do not indicate that our view is the proper one or try to change another's opinion.

    Our standards in Senior Net and especially here in this forum are courtesy and consideration and respect of others and their opinions.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 27, 2002 - 03:32 pm
    As has been pointed out by others in previous postings, it helps to keep in mind that cultures and civilizations differ. What is immoral in one culture is absolutely proper in another.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 27, 2002 - 03:39 pm
    This post was made at the very start of the Story of Civilization (Our Oriental Heritage) forum and still holds true.

    "To my knowledge, no civilization of any sort has existed without some sort of ritual which one can call religious. For this reason, it will be impossible to participate in this forum without discussing "religion" from time to time.

    "However, the following guidelines will be enforced by the Discussiion Leader to avoid confrontations and digressions about personal religious views.

    "1 - You may make one post describing your own beliefs related to religion (whether you have a religious faith or do not) in order to explain your viewpoint toward the topic at hand. Making additional posts about your religious beliefs or faith is not permitted.

    2 - Do not speak of your religion or absence of religious beliefs as "the truth."

    3 - Do not attempt to change another's conviction about religion.

    "Comments about issues are welcomed. Negative comments about other participants are not permitted.

    "Those participants who do not believe they are being treated fairly in this respect always have the right to contact Marcie, Director of Education. I will follow her guidance."

    Robby

    MaryPage
    October 27, 2002 - 04:29 pm
    I wish we could avoid areas where opinions differ greatly and bring forth strong feelings. We just don't need that. The book we are reading speaks of fathers taking babies and leaving them on mountain tops to die. I was astonished at the era and place, and was relating it to other places I have read or heard of that did this or something similar. Actually, I have seen at least one film, probably more, that showed either female babes or malformed ones being born and then taken away for just such a purpose, with the mother portrayed as weeping copiously. We are learning here about something that was common, usual, and/or habitual in the culture. I personally cannot see that a woman's decision not to be pregnant is anywhere in the ball park of what we are talking about, so it follows that I cannot see anything like the Ancient Greek practice, thank heavens!, being part of our culture. The few mothers who have tossed away their infants are considered unacceptable in our culture, and therefore criminals. Thus this anomaly is nothing like what we are discussing either.

    I am sympathetic to any and every one's private convictions. I do wish, though, that we would refrain from skating out on what we are all painfully aware is thin ice.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 27, 2002 - 05:17 pm
    "In the legends and epics woman plays a leading role, from Pelops' courtship of Hippodameia to Iphigenia's gentleness and Electra's hate. The gynacceum does not confine her, not does the home. She moves freely among men and women alike, and occasionally shares in the serious discourse of the men, as Helen does with Menelaus and Telemachus.

    "When the Achaean leaders wish to fire the imagination of their people against Troy, they appeal not to political or racial or religious ideas, but to the sentiment for woman's beauty. The loveliness of Helen must put a pretty face upon a war for land and trade. Without woman the Homeric hero would be a clumsy boor, with nothing to live for or die for. She teaches him something of courtesy, idealism, and softer ways."

    To start a war, the leaders appeal to the beauty of a woman. A pretty face is put upon a war. Very interesting!

    Robby

    North Star
    October 27, 2002 - 05:20 pm
    I understood the babies were left out to die if they had something physically wrong with them but not otherwise. A family would need as many hands as possible to farm or manufacture or whatever they did as an economic unit. A baby that could not contribute to the family's well-being wasn't useful to them.

    Here are a couple of sentences in my Classical Greece book. These paragraphs would be specifically about Athens.

    'A Greek child grew up in an enchanted world-if he survived his first fortnight. For 10 days after birth the father could inspect the baby, and if he found it deformed or weak, he could order it to be exposed in some public place to die. Once he approved, the wonders appeared. In addition to the playthings ...there were terra-cotta rattles with pebbles in them for tots. For older children there were swings, seesaws, kites, balls and all manner of games.

    During the early years the mother was in charge. Her task was to provide a life free of sorrow, fear and pain in the first three years, and full of sports and amusement in the second three. Then the golden era ended. After their sixth brthday boys and girls were separated. The girls stayed at home with their mothers. The boys were sent to school to learn to be men.'

    Justin
    October 27, 2002 - 08:53 pm
    It is sad to learn that even though the Achaeans differ substantially from the Archaic Greeks and again from the Classical Greeks, the power of the father to destroy unacceptable infants remains strong. I will be curious to see if the practice continues on to the Hellenistic Greeks. The Dorians and subsequently the Spartans adopted the practice. I wonder about the Athenians who seem to be more conscious of the value of human life than other Greeks. I suppose we will learn that when we come to it.

    Justin
    October 27, 2002 - 09:04 pm
    Robby; I see you are reefing sail in anticipation of rough weather. Three Kings introduced the topic and I have just laid down a target for folks to shoot at if they choose. No proselytizing implied and none should be inferred. Comments on cultural differences are allowed and encouraged, I think.

    Bubble
    October 27, 2002 - 11:16 pm
    'During the early years the mother was in charge. Her task was to provide a life free of sorrow, fear and pain in the first three years, and full of sports and amusement in the second three. Then the golden era ended. After their sixth brthday boys and girls were separated. The girls stayed at home with their mothers. The boys were sent to school to learn to be men.'

    It sounds like an exact description of what is common practice in the very orthodox homes here. No abortion and no killing of babies of course, but I have heard much of cases where the 'physically or mentally challenged' are hidden away because it shames the whole family and would hinder the finding of good husbands for the other girls in the family. It is changing, but very slowly.

    I think that was the same in Hellenistic time and in Biblical time? Malformation was consider a punitive measure from the gods to the parents? Bubble

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 28, 2002 - 05:08 am
    "The cost of marriage is paid by the suitor to the father of the girl. The poet speaks of 'cattle-bringing maidens.' The purchase is reciprocal, for the father usually gives the bride a substantial dowry.

    "The ceremony is familial and religious, with much eating, dancing, and loose-tongued merriment. 'Beneath a blaze of torches they led the brides from their chambers through the city, and loud rose the bridal song. The young men whirled in the dance, and high among them did sound the flute and the lyre.' So changeless are the essentials of our life.

    Once married, the woman becomes mistress in her home, and is honored in proportion to her children. Love in the truest sense, as a profound mutual tenderness and solicitude, comes to the Greeks, as to the French, after marriage rather than before. It is not the spark thrown off by the contact or nearness of two bodies, but the fruit of long association in the cares and industries of the home.

    "The Homeric wife is as faithful as her husband is not. There are three adulteresses in Homer--Clytaemnestra, Helen, and Aphrodite. They do injustice to the mortal average, if not to the divine."

    Is there that much difference between marriage in those times thousands of years ago and in the present time?

    Robby

    tooki
    October 28, 2002 - 07:06 am
    like the ancient Greeks, love comes after marriage, says Durant. What say you, Quebec? For such a learned guy, Durant sure had some interesting ideas about the world HE lived in.

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 28, 2002 - 08:38 am
    The idea of romantic love came thousands of years after Achaean Greece. It seems to me that we've read about wedding celebrations like this in other civilizations, haven't we? We also read about the discarding of children in other cultures in Our Oriental Heritage. It sounds as if the Achaean Greeks had much the same attitude about life that people in Ancient Eastern civilizations had. This does not sound much like a Western civilization to me.

    Mal

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 28, 2002 - 08:43 am
    Could it be that Durant's goal in starting with Crete and then the Achaean Civilization before taking us to the Ancient Greece that we all studied in history class was to help us to see that there was not an immediate leap from Eastern to Western civilization but a gradual mix of the two?

    Robby

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    October 28, 2002 - 12:44 pm
    Tooki, I guess you are referring to me when you say "what say you Quebec" but perhaps I can answer as Eloïse would, because I don't think there are others from Quebec in S of C. Unless Françoise comes in to post. Perhaps.

    When I read Durant's biography that Mal posted when we started S of C, I remember distinctly that his parents were from Quebec as his name suggests. (very common name here but spelled Durand). The French he is referring to in L of G are NOT Quebecers (I know you know that) they are the French from Europe. (of course you know that) Durant just has a natural penchant for French.

    As for arranged marriages, in Quebec we do everything the way people do South of the Border just like other Canadians.

    Eloïse

    tooki
    October 28, 2002 - 01:17 pm
    Aren't the similiaritites between the old eastern cultures and the Achaean culture "tribal?" That is, these cultures were budding socieites and therefore shared certain attributes such as not having enought food, reliance on the primary family unit for security, and fending for themselves. These "tribal" characteristics were observed among the tribal cultures of the North American Indians. I enjoy the view that early American anthropologists, such as Kroeber, had. They just assumed from their "civilized" positions that the "informants," as they called the Native Americans, would just tell them anything they wanted to know; all they had to do was ask. Of course, the "informants" told them what they thought they wanted to hear. The result has been hilarous misinformation handed down from anthropologist to anthropologist. And the Samoans fooled Margaret Mead too, from what I read. Are we being fooled a bit?

    North Star
    October 28, 2002 - 03:38 pm
    I think Durant has imposed his values on the ancients and takes from history what he wants to find.

    Justin
    October 28, 2002 - 03:54 pm
    The blending of east and west that we will see in Greece is part and parcel of the civilizing process. Durant is responding to Voltaire by showing the "steps" he requested. He is helping the children (us) to understand the infinite riches of our inheritance. Durant and Campbell show us the kernals of truth that lie in the myths of the Achaeans. I read Homer early in life and thought it was an adventurous fairy tale. Now I see we can deduce some valuable knowledge of tribal life from the Illiad and the Odyssey. We too are on a quest for we are mining the myths with Durant for useful ideas.

    Justin
    October 28, 2002 - 04:18 pm
    We have seen the purchase of brides in every early culture we have visited so far. When women are born in primitive societies they are seen as an extra useless mouth to feed. Some times they are destroyed at birth. But when women have reached child bearing age they become useful again because they are a source of boys. It is then the suiter pays his bride's price and the father pays his dowry to get rid of his burden.

    Native Americans also purchased brides. The suiter in some tribes ties two horses to the tepee of the father to signify his interest in a daughter and to open negotiations. No one says to the daughter "do you love this man?"

    Today, in the west, the suiter comes to a father and says " we're going to get married". Sometimes it is only the daughter who says that. Dad meets the guy at the wedding ceremony.He may be invited to a bachelor party but dad has very little to say about the union except to pay for the wedding. I don't think that is a change for the better.

    Justin
    October 28, 2002 - 07:46 pm
    I was leafing through a Turkish guide book when I discovered that Homer was born in Izmir in modern Turkey. That means he was an Ionian in our time- the time of the Achaeans.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 28, 2002 - 08:22 pm
    ""The women function not only as mothers but as workers. They grind the grain, card the wool, spin, weave, and embroider. They do little sewing, since garments are mostly without seams. Cooking is normally left to men.

    "Amid these labors they bear and rear children, heal their hurts, pacify their quarrels, and teach them the manners, morals, and traditions of the tribe. There is no formal education, apparently no teaching of letters, no spelling, no grammar, no books. It is a boy's utopia. The girl is taught the arts of the home, the boy those of the chase and war. He learns to fish and swim, to till the fields, set snares, handle animals, aim the arrow and the lance, and take care of himself in all the emergencies of a half-lawless life.

    "When the boy grows up to manhood, he becomes, in the absence of his father, the rsponsible head of the family. When he marries he brings his bride to his father's home, and the rhythm of the generations is renewed.

    "The individual members of the family change with time, but the family is the lasting unit, surviving perhaps for centuries, and forging in the turbulent crucible of the home the order and character without which all government is in vain."

    How interesting -- to me at least -- that in this Year of 2002 the term "family values" is still a "hot topic."

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 28, 2002 - 08:54 pm
    Hot topic? I'll say it is. Kids don't take any responsibility for themselves. They're spoiled, want everything they see no matter how much it costs, and they don't want to work for it. Women want too much freedom and won't stay home to raise their children. Men fool around, and don't care how much they cheat on their wives. No wonder we talk about family values so much. What's happened to the family in the year 2002? Read above. It's falling apart.

    Want to know something? I've read the same thing in works that were written over 2000 years ago, and the same things we complain about existed even before then. But, you want to know something else? No matter who it is I talk to today, those people's lives revolve around their family.

    So what's new? Has anything changed except technology?

    Mal

    Justin
    October 28, 2002 - 10:57 pm
    Unfortunately, "family values" today is a euphemism that encourages minimization of the role of women in the family and in society. It says, "Stay home lady and keep your place."

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 29, 2002 - 04:19 am
    "The art of writing has presumably been handed down to them from Mycenaean Greece. They prefer blood to ink and flesh to clay. In all of Homer there is but one reference to writing, and there in a characteristic context. A folded tablet is given to a messenger, directing the recipient to kill the messenger.

    "The king or prince gathers his retainers about him for a feast, and some wandering minstrel, stringing the lyre, recounts in simple verse the exploits of ancestral heroes. This is, for the Achaeans, both poetry and history. Homer, perhaps wishing like Pheidias to engrave his own portrait upon his work, tells how Alcinous, King of the Phaeacians, calls for such song in entertaining Odysseus.

    "'Summon hither the divine minstrel, Demococus. For to him above all others has the god granted skill in song. Then the herald drew near, leading the good minstrel, whom the Muse loved above all other men, and gave him both good and evil. Of his sight she deprived him, but gave him the gift of sweet song."

    Why does all this remind me of stories I have read about life in the European Middle Ages -- the king feasting along with his court -- the blind minstrel singing for the king -- the song telling of brave deeds?

    Robby

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    October 29, 2002 - 06:29 am
    Justin - Is that what men think in your post 689 "Stay home lady and keep your place.", because I don't see that at all in society today. Most women are working outside the home now, (my 4 daughters are). Very few women stay home unless they have a home run business, which is a wonderful trend I think.

    But you are right to say that "family values" is an euphonism when 50% of marriages fail and kids are constantly carried back and forth in reconstructed families and get values from 2 sets of parents and 4 sets of grand'parents and don't know which values to value any more.

    Apart from a brief period in my youth, I rather like being a woman.

    Eloïse

    moxiect
    October 29, 2002 - 09:09 am
    I have been following all that has been said and enjoying all my side trips as a very interesting learning series.

    Family values! All through the course of ancient civilization the family unit has been the center of life. Different cultures, different values. Different needs, resulted in many different solutions some of which we now consider barbaric. Growing up in a time when society abhorred the breakage of a marriage the children suffered more than the parents. How - confusion of values, acceptance by their peers were nil. The child was always and in some instances now 'left out'.

    MaryPage
    October 29, 2002 - 09:14 am
    Way to go, JUSTIN!

    ROBBY, those paragraphs support my much earlier argument that all of the stories were told over and over and were passed down and everyone was familiar with them.

    ELOISE, I assume you are speaking only of the society you know and move in. There are plenty of cultural groups within the Americas that still preserve these attitudes, as well as plenty of individual men. Then consider the Middle East and Central Asia! Here, the man is everything and goes everywhere, while the woman is confined to the home and the hearth.

    I, personally, have not traveled to the Greece and Turkey of my lifetime, but know many, many people who have. I even have two sets of friends who have lived in Turkey, having been stationed there. Every single one has told me these are male dominated societies and that the women do the bulk of the work. Men, in both places, are to be found filling up the coffee houses and sidewalk cafes, where they drink, gossip, and play with their "worry beads" constantly. I laughingly told one family that they simply must bring me back a pair of these "worry beads", which they did! Another family brought me a brass and glass Turkish tea tray set, which I adore! The tea is served in very pretty etched glasses set inside of ornate brass cup-like holders with handles.

    MaryPage
    October 29, 2002 - 10:34 am
    Just realized I forgot to tell you the thing I love most about my Turkish tea tray set. The tray, ornately scrolled and etched brass, is round and has 3 rounded brass rods curving upwards to meet in a little dome shaped thingy way up over the tray, which in turn is capped with an ornate thingy which has a large brass carrying ring set in it. Got the picture? Okay, 5 of the saucers with the little brass holders holding the little cranberry colored etched glass tea glasses are in a circle on the tray, and one in the middle. Each has, let us say, very hot and very sweet mint tea in it. You can take this tray and swing in back and forth. Swinging it ever faster, you can then swing it ALL THE WAY in a circle. Yep! The cups are actually upside down for a second, and not a drop is spilled! FUN!

    I've never grown up, just older!

    North Star
    October 29, 2002 - 11:59 am
    Children today are tyrants. They contradict their parents, gobble their food, and tyrannize their teachers. - Socrates (470-399 B.C.)

    North Star
    October 29, 2002 - 12:08 pm
    Family values is code for anti feminism, ant gay rights, anti liberalism, pro creationism, and a bunch of other stuff to do with right wing religion. It is partly a product of the Moral Majority which became a political force in the early 1980s and helped elect Ronald Reagan.

    I think the Homeric family values were something different. Loyalty to family and to tribe. Going to war to protect your territory - well this hasn't changed. Using history as a guide to actions.

    I get the impression that the ancient Greeks looked to Homer's poems for information about their history the same as westerners look to the bible for religious history. Maybe it happened, maybe it didn't. The lessons are overlooked but the stories are believed. Just my opinion.

    MaryPage
    October 29, 2002 - 12:17 pm
    I agree, NORTH STAR!

    Marvelle
    October 29, 2002 - 12:42 pm
    Yes Turkey is a male-dominated society but the fez and veil were outlawed by Ataturk early in the 20th Century and women vote and hold office. In the upper classes, women are lawyers and doctors. Women do a lot of the work but so do the men. When I lived in Turkey I found a commodious flat for rent on the third story of a nice building but I had to buy a new refrigerator. I was horrified to find it delivered to me by by a man who walked up the three flights of stairs with the refrigerator strapped to his back. There was a child who guided him around the corners since the man was too bent under the weight of the refrigerator to look at where he was going beyond each stair step.

    Marvelle

    Bubble
    October 29, 2002 - 01:47 pm
    Marvelle, that is how my fridge got to my flat too: the lift is too small and the fridge would never fit in.



    "Transport" of heavy stuff like fridges or pianos is a very special trade and most of those engaged in it are called "Salonikai", or people from Salonika, the port and region in Greece. It seems fit to point that out when we talk of Greece now. They can play tavli hours long in cafes, but some also work very hard physically and are proud of it. Actually I think these Mediterranean people have a particularly developped sense of pride and a keen sense of honor of the family. Bubble

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 29, 2002 - 02:00 pm
    When I was a boy I used to watch men climb up three (or more) flights of stairs with an upright piano strapped to their back. Not any more over here of course. Cultures vary not only geographically but chronologically.

    Robby

    Justin
    October 29, 2002 - 02:50 pm
    I also agree, North Star.

    Faithr
    October 29, 2002 - 02:51 pm
    On A&E on DishTV last night I saw a documentary re: Sexuality in the Ancient World. They started in Greece from the Aegean period to the crushing of the Empire under Romes succession. Then it followed mores` in the Roman Empire right up through Constantine and the Christian period where " Christian morals and values gradually supplanted the ways of the ancient world both in art and society in much of the world." It was so interesting and revealing. I did enjoy it very much however it was very graphic and had all the art from those periods plus professors of history from many different universities making comments and explainations when they had one. Much of the art was sexually graphic and made me blush.Faith

    Justin
    October 29, 2002 - 02:56 pm
    Eloise, Your four daughters are rebelling against the directive of the religious right as are my three daughters. North Star has it right.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 29, 2002 - 03:16 pm
    "Homer says nothing of painting or sculpture, but calls up all his inspiration to describe the scenes inlaid or damascened upon Achilles' shield, or raised in relief upon Odysseus' brooch. He speaks briefly but illiminatingly about architecture.

    "The common dwelling in Homer is apparently of sun-dried brick with a footing of stone. The floor is ordinarily of beaten earth, and is cleaned by scraping. The roof is of reeds overlaid with clay, and slopes only enough to carry off the rain. The doors are single or double, and may have bolts of keys.

    "In the better dwellings the interior walls are of painted stucco, with ornamental border or frieze, and are hung with weapons, shields, and tapestries. There is no kitchen, no chimney, no windows. An opening in the roof of the central hall lets out some of the smoke that may rise from the hearth. The rest finds its way through the door, or settles in soot on the walls.

    "The rich establishments have a bathroom. Others content themselves with a tub. The furniture is of heavy wood, often artistically carved and finished. Icmalius fashions for Penelope an armchair set with ivory and precious metals. And Odysseus makes for himself and his wife a massive bedsted designed to last for a century."

    This civilization seems to have some excellent art and yet, all in all, it appears to me to be a rather primitive tribal culture. Maybe I'm missing something.

    Robby

    MaryPage
    October 29, 2002 - 04:15 pm
    I see the same, ROBBY; but I also see the same strong tribal feelings all over this world. Tribal emotions still run strong right here in the U.S.A., and not just among Native Americans.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 29, 2002 - 04:18 pm
    Would you expand a bit on that, MaryPage? Please give us some examples (aside from Native Americans) of "some tribal emotions that still run strong" in America.

    Robby

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    October 29, 2002 - 04:50 pm
    Justin - It's a totally different world, modernity had not yet reached my door, automatic washer, drier, dishwasher, trow-away diapers, etc. I worked from dawn to dusk IN the house. Spirituality has nothing to do with working outside the home as my daughters are spiritual, but not in the same sense that North Star and you are thinking perhaps. To each his own.

    Bubble - I remember my husband and a friend taking our one ton piano upstairs without effort. But a fridge strapped to the back? Wow.

    Robby - No kitchen, no chimneys, no windows? Where did they cook, outside I guess. Of course Greece does not have our Canadian weather.

    Eloïse

    MaryPage
    October 29, 2002 - 04:51 pm
    An article in today's or yesterday's newspaper pointed out a huge flap in the black community and declared it tribal in substance and (this was written by a member of that community) deplored it. The flap is twofold: famous people being "Uncle Toms". Colin Powell in not fighting Bush on Iraq and Tiger Woods in not fighting for women to be allowed at Augusta. You probably read the article I mention. This is tribal.

    I once had a friend who fled to Washington, D.C. from her family in Akron, Ohio and could never go home again. A perfectly fine family, but a Greek Orthodox one. At 18, they wanted Mary Pat to marry a 40 year old man she did not even know. He had made a success in the business world and was looking for a good Greek bride. She wound up marrying a non-Greek Major in the Army (this was 1948) and I have since lost touch, so do not know whether she ever made up with her large family or not, but I kind of doubt it. This is tribal in nature. I had, until 1992 when she died, a dear friend who was born and raised in the Italian section of Wilmington, Delaware. I visited there often, and everyone, even our generation, spoke Italian as well as English and were very, very tribal. I drove my cleaning lady of a few years ago, home one day. I was about a block from her home when I could see a police car about half a block ahead pull up abruptly behind another vehicle and 2 policemen got out and were arresting the man driving the other vehicle. All of a sudden people erupted from the houses on both sides of the street and up and down, back and forth for blocks. They were like a rioting mob around the policemen, and I felt very frightened for the police. This is tribal in nature. Oh, and remember the Elian thing with the Cubans in Miami? How about the response to the O.J. trial? I could go on and on and on, but have to stop somewhere.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 29, 2002 - 05:18 pm
    "It is characteristic of this age that it spends itself upon palaces, just as Periclean architecture will neglect palaces and lavish itself upon temples. We hear of the 'sumptuous home of Paris, which the prince had built with the aid of the most cunning architects in Troy.' Of King Alcinous' great mansion, with walls of bronze, frieze of blue-glass paste, doors of silver and gold, and other features that may belong rather to poetry than to architecture.

    "We hear something of Agamemnon's royal residence at Mycenae, and a great deal about Odysseus' palace at Ithaca. This has a front court, paved in part with stone, surrounded by a palisade or plastered wall, and adorned with trees, stalls for horses, and a heap of steaming dung on which Odysseus' dog Argos makes his bed in the sun. A large pillared porch leads to the house. Here the slaves sleep and often the visitors.

    "Within, an anteroom opens upon a central hall supported by pillars, and sometimes lighted not only by the opening in the roof, but by a narrow clerestory or open space between the architrave and the eaves.

    "At night braziers burning on tall stands give an unsteady illumination. In the center of the hall is the hearth, around whose sacred fire the family gathers in the evening for warmth and good cheer, and debates the ways of neighbors, the willfulness of children, and the vicissitudes of states."

    I have just finished describing this culture, as best as I could see, as a rather primitive tribal civilization. Now I read about cunning architects, doors of silver and gold, a pillared porch, and an anteroom lighted at night.

    I am confused. Please help me, someone!

    Robby

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    October 29, 2002 - 06:28 pm
    While we are in Greek Architecture,

    TEMPLE OF POSSEIDON

    Eloïse

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 29, 2002 - 06:48 pm
    Robby, didn't we run into this combination of primitive and advanced culture in Ancient Babylonia?

    Mal

    tooki
    October 29, 2002 - 10:21 pm
    an intangible emotional state, not having to do with material things. If tribal situations exist currently in the United States, as indicated, then surely material sophisication is irrelevant.

    North Star
    October 29, 2002 - 10:29 pm
    Thanks Justin and MaryPage.

    Eloise; #707, I've met many people who are spiritual without being religious. They enjoy a take on life that I am not capable of. They are more interesting for it.

    Robby: #704, mentions keys and locks. We saw Roman keys and locks at the exhibit at our local museum. While these were only 2000 years old and quite large, they were also quite ingenious.

    The model of a wealthy Greek home was also on display. I know I am jumping 1000 years ahead of where we are in Durant's text but the floor plan in Robby's post sounds the same. There is an inner court, open to the sky, with a rectangular pool of water, barrels to collect rain, a very large area given over to the animals, servants quarters, a large front courtyard, and a relatively small area where the family lived. Servants and slaves were treated like one of the family.

    My son said that when they were on a dig in southern Italy (in Gravina) when you found one part of the house, you knew pretty well where the rest was because they were all the same floor plan, and I think, oriented the same way. I'm going to see if that museum site is up and running yet.

    Justin
    October 29, 2002 - 11:40 pm
    The Palace at Knossos is an example of advanced architecture. It was built by people who were primitive in other spheres. Perhaps, because they were sea traders they were able to reach this stage of living before others and for the same reason were able to pass their skills across the Aegean. We can not make the assumption that primitive tribes on the mainland were able to construct palaces of Minoan quality without the aid of the Minoans. Ithaca, with its stables and dung heaps close in are not of Minoan quality but the pillars supporting roofs are an architectural technique they could well have inherited from Crete.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 30, 2002 - 04:39 am
    "The clan is a group (genos, literally a genus) of persons acknowledging a common ancestor and a common chieftain. The citadel of the chieftain is the origin and center of the city. There, as his force subsides into usage and law, clan after clan gathers, and makes a political as well as a kinship community. When the chieftain desires some united action from his clan or city, he summons its free males to a public assembly, and submits to them a proposal which they may accept or reject, but which only the most important members of the group may propose to change.

    "In this village assembly -- the one democratic element in an essentially feudal and aristocratic society -- skilled speakers who can sway the people are valuable to the state. Already, in old Nestor, whose voice 'flows sweeter than honey from his tongue,' and in wily Odysseus, whose words fall 'like snowflakes upon the people,' we have the beginnings of that stream of eloquence which will reach greater heights in Greece than in any other civilization, and will finally submerge it in ruin."

    As I read this description of the clan and how the group of clans operate, I immediately thought of the Mafia. A number of "families", each operating on its own under the head of a specific "godfather" in an autocratic (even feudal) manner and, from time to time, a number of families which ordinarily are antagonistic toward each other coming together in a temporarily democratic meeting but only the top dogs being able to make proposals. And some of these Mafia folks are eloquent!

    It is also my understanding that the Mafia has its roots in Sicity which is not that far from the area we are discussing now. Do they fit in with the first GREEN, quote above? Am I stretching it? What thinkest thou?

    Robby

    Bubble
    October 30, 2002 - 05:32 am
    and I bet that in these clans as in the Mafia feuds are "repaired through arranged marriages between rival clans. Young girls used as if pieces on a chess board.

    I see the similarities between these clans and the Mafia families, I also see them in the African or Indian tribes. Same customs repeating themselves all over the world because they worked?

    moxiect
    October 30, 2002 - 05:37 am
    Rob - If essence of the first statement in GREEN you are not stretching it.

    The crisis that caused the creation of the MAFIA was in the invasion of France during the reign of Napolean into Sicily.

    moxiect
    October 30, 2002 - 05:59 am
    Rob

    While doing some research I came across these two sites that I hope fall into our time line of discussion!

    http://www.sicilianculture.com/history/ancient.htm

    http://www.e-touristland.com/segesta.asp?lang=EN

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 30, 2002 - 12:20 pm
    What about the tribes of Afghanistan and other Middle Eastern countries that exist today? What about the clans in Scotland?

    Mal

    MaryPage
    October 30, 2002 - 03:32 pm
    What about the tribe that has popped up in our national news recently: The Travelers. In my lifetime, I have heard bits and pieces about them, then been warned as a new homeowner to be on the lookout for them (they were called gypsies) and not to be taken in by their offers, then read some articles and, finally, saw some tv magazine pieces about them. Then the infamous pictures on the telly of one of them beating her daughter. Did you know there are approximately a dozen clans of them in this country, three major ones? They start strutting their girl children out, all gussied up, at age 3; making sure they are bid for marriage by age 11. They marry their cousins. They quit school early, if they go at all. That very pretty child-beater only went through the 6th grade. Tribal.

    ROBBY, re the wonderful items of the ancient world, I think we are talking left brains here. People who "see" ways to build, paint, and create in any and every way are different from the society-builders. As soon as these types got their hands on anything to use as tools or materials whatsoever which could inspire their imaginations, they went to town. The artistically gifted among us do not traditionally lead us in any other areas. They are usually too busy following their muse.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 30, 2002 - 06:26 pm
    "The powers of the king are limited in space, for his kingdom is small. They are limited in time, for he may be deposed by the Council, or by a right which the Achaeans readily recognize -- the right of the stronger. Otherwise his rule is hereditary, and has only the vaguest boundaries.

    "He is above all a military commander, solicitous for his army, without which he might be found in the wrong. He sees to it that it is well equipped, well fed, well trained, that it has poisoned arrows, lances, helmets, greaves, spears, breastplates, shields, and chariots. So long as the army defends him, he is the government -- legislature, executive, judiciary.

    "He is the high priest of the state religion, and sacrifices for the people. His decrees are the laws, and his decisions are final. There is as yet no word for law. Below him the Council may sit occasionally to judge grave disputes. Then, as if to set a precedent for all courts, it asks for precedents, and decides accordingly.

    "Precedent dominates law because precedent is custom, and custom is the jealous older brother of law. Trials of any kind, however, are rare in Homeric society. There are hardly any public agencies of justice. EAch family must defend and revenge itself.

    "Violence abounds."

    Precedent is custom and dominates law. Makes one to think.

    Robby

    tooki
    October 30, 2002 - 10:20 pm
    Durant paints a logical and coherent picture of the development of the tribe into a larger community with a "king," using, according to his footnotes, old histories on the growth of societies. He even indicates the beginnings of a legal society in the weight in disputes which is given to custom and precedent. He makes it sound so, so, reasonable. Aha, are we beginning to see the Greek mind at work?

    Bubble
    October 31, 2002 - 01:10 am
    Isn't precedent the argument many lawyers use to build their case? It would only fair that something allowed to one should be allowed to the other, or the punitive action meted to a crime be the same for another similar crime? Of course fairness is not a natural talent.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 31, 2002 - 05:13 am
    As precedence is examined, where does morality fit in? If, in a particular civilization, killing is common, then does precedence state over law (if such exists) that killing is all right?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 31, 2002 - 06:04 am
    As we move ahead with Durant, we must ask ourselves some questions. The GREEN quotes above are most important. What are your reactions?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 31, 2002 - 08:49 am
    Are we reading about events that actually happened or the mind creations of a poet? Click onto HOMER and come to your own conclusion.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 31, 2002 - 09:13 am
    Like all other oral history, I believe it is necessary that we take these stories with a grain of salt. There is no evidence that there ever was an individual man named Homer who wrote the Iliad and the Odyssey. These stories no doubt were passed down by word of mouth over generations, and because of that they were embellished, exaggerated and changed.

    As we have learned, something disastrous happened at Troy. To me it seems as if was a far greater cataclysm than war, perhaps an earthquake. Which Troy are we speaking of, anyway? Weren't there nine cities discovered by excavation which were called Troy? Regardless whether these stories are true or not, it's fun to read them and glean what truth we think might possibly exist from them.

    Mal

    MaryPage
    October 31, 2002 - 10:18 am
    I am still inclined to believe the names of most of the people in the stories are real and their relationships are mostly correct, though they are bound to have dropped a few stitches in the narrative, as well as embroidering quite a bit. I believe there is some loose relationship to actual events.

    I was delighted to read in our local paper that St. John's College here in Annapolis will offer a choral dance performance tomorrow and Saturday. They are doing something from Agamemnon and something from Homer. In Greek.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 31, 2002 - 11:11 am
    "We only know that every Greek historian, and every Greek poet, and almost every temple record or legend in Greece, took it for granted that there was a siege of Troy -- that archeology has placed the ruined city, generously multiplied, before our eyes -- and that today, as until the last century, the story and its heroes are accepted as in essence real.

    "An Egyptian inscription of Rameses III reports that 'the isles were restless' toward 1196 B.C. and Pliny alludes to a Rameses 'in whose time Troy fell.' The great Alexandrian scholar Eratosthenes, on the basis of traditional genealogies collated late in the sixth century before Christ by the geographer-historian Hecataeus, calculated the date of the siege as 1194 B.C."

    Circumstantial evidence?

    Robby

    moxiect
    October 31, 2002 - 12:41 pm
    Which Troy are we talking about supposedly there are 9 levels of Troy so I am totally lost as to which one. Between the Illiad and Odyssey I believe there is some truth in it but to what is actual truth remains a mystery to me.

    Bubble
    October 31, 2002 - 01:00 pm
    http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/10/27/jesus.inscription.ap/

    http://archaeology.miningco.com/library/weekly/aa102302a.htm

    I thought some of you might be interested, even though it is not Greece.

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    October 31, 2002 - 02:21 pm
    Hi Robby, Thank you for bringing us to Greece. I am reading your fast moving discussions again and it is absolutly fascinating.

    I read in the biographies of Alexander the Great that he used to sleep with the book of the Iliad under his pillow. In my opinion, the very powerful content that the author created or related gave these people important guiding forces to their spirit to lead a moral and victorious existence. Myths can be recognised as having some contents of truth if they become accepted as tradition in a civilisation. Françoise

    North Star
    October 31, 2002 - 04:40 pm
    The ossuary will be on display at the Royal Ontario Museum in Toronto. There are about three bible related conferences being held in November in Toronto so the museum thought it would be a tie-in to the conferences to have it there.

    Several posts back, we were discussing the beginnings of civil law and specifically, the law to not kill. Remembering that these people were new at law-making, I would guess the law relly was Don't kill people who are the same as you, the same tribe, the same race, the same culture.

    There was a bit of information on the radio today about the man who wanted to save the Beothuks, the native people of Newfoundland, a province of Canada. When Europeans came to the province to fish and trap furs beginning in the 1500s, they shot the Beothuk for sport. The Beothuk were mostly coastal peoples whose main food was fish but they were pushed inland and their ability to exist was borderline. The last one died in 1829. Human nature being what it is, I am revisiting the Do Not Kill law for this reason which was repeated all over the world.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 31, 2002 - 06:42 pm
    Hi Francoise:--Good to have you with us even if you are posting under your mom's name. You might want to register in Senior Net so you can have your own name (or screen name) here.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 31, 2002 - 06:48 pm
    "The ancient Persians and Phoenicians agreed with the Greeks in tracing the great war to four abductions of beautiful women. The Egyptians, they said, stole Io from Argos, the Greeks stole Europa from Phoenicia, and Medea from Colchis. Did not a just balancing of the scales require that Paris should abduct Helen?

    "Stesichorus in his penitent years, and after him Herodotus and Euripides, refused to admit that Helen had gone to Troy. She had only gone to Egypt, under constraint, and had merely waited there a dozen years for Menelaus to come and find her. Besides, asked Herodotus, who could believe that the Trojans would fight ten years for one woman?

    "Europides attributed the expedition to excess population in Greece, and the consequent urge to expansion. So old are the youngest excuses of the will to power.

    Apparently being a beautiful woman is dangerous.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 1, 2002 - 05:11 am
    This link has been given here before but I am bringing it up again as we are in a questioning mode. Was there a Homer as well as a Troy? Are we discussing false history? Click HERE for some answers or, possibly, more questions.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 1, 2002 - 07:34 am
    What do we believe about Troy? We believe what we want to believe. There are people who believe every word in the Bible is true, and people who don't. It's the same sort of thing.

    Mal

    Bubble
    November 1, 2002 - 08:56 am
    IMO The weft is true, anyone can embroider on it one way or another because time has blurred what existed there. Homer showed us his interpretation.

    tooki
    November 1, 2002 - 10:25 am
    I am prepared to accept archeological evidence that Homer's Troy existed as what they call "TroyVI." And I am prepared to accept, if not Homer's actual existence, a Homeric state of mind. It would be wild, brave, free. I'll willingly and romantically accept this from Fitzgerald's Translation (Book IX) "Hektor in his ecatasty of power is mad for battle, confident in Zeus, deferring to neither men nor gods. Pure frenzy fills him, and he prays for the bright dawn." Frankly, I am bored by translations filled with thy, thine, hast, thou, thus, and twisted syntax. But I'll bear up because I'm in a Homeric state of mind.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 1, 2002 - 03:31 pm
    "Men must have phrases if they are to give their lives. Whatever may have been the face and shibboleth of the war, its cause and essence lay, almost beyond doubt, in the struggle of two groups of powers for possession of the Hellespont and the rich lands lying about the Black Sea. All Greeece and all western Asia saw it as a decisive conflict. The little nations of Greece came to the aid of Agamemnon, and the people of Asia Minor sent repeated reinforcements to Troy. It was the beginning of a struggle that would be renewed at Marathon and Salamais, at Issue and Arbela, at Tours and Granada, at Lepanto and Vienna.

    "We accept what the poets and dramatists of Greece have told us as rather literature than history -- but all the more for that reason a part of the story of civilization. We know that war is ugly, and that the Iliad is beautiful. Art may make even terror beautiful -- and so purify it -- by giving it significance and form.

    "Not that the form of the Iliad is perfect. The structure is loose -- the narrative is sometimes contradictory or obscure -- the conclusion does not conclude. Nevertheless the perfection of the parts atones for the disorder of the whole, and with all its minor faults, the story becomes one of the great dramas of literature, perhaps of history."

    These are powerful statements by Durant. Art making terror beautiful. The perfection of the parts atones for disorder of the whole. Men must have phrases if they are to give their lives. Has this been true of the literature written during or after later wars?

    Robby

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    November 1, 2002 - 06:20 pm
    Words can be as soft as velvet or as hard as a weapon. They can make the heart soar with joy, soothe a broken heart, heal wounds and make a friend from an enemy. They can start a war between neighbors and start a revolution. Christians believe words written in the Bible, Muslims those of the Koran and Jews those of the Torah. Communism started with the Manifesto. Plato wrote about Democracy. The power of words sets the mind into action.

    If the Odyssey of Homer has never passed into oblivion it might be because it is so poetic, it reads like fiction, but whether the story is accurate or not does not matter to me because we will never know and I prefer to think it is true.

    Bubble
    November 2, 2002 - 01:56 am
    A famous author said once that the tongue is the blessing of man as well as his curse. I think it was Aesop.



    The oral tale of King Shakha, retold for so long among the natives of South Africa, is as poetic and mind enticing as the Odyssey. It is historical too. Who knows if the numerous not deciphered yet tablets found in the East or in South America are not another similar epics? History repeating itself? Remember the Gilgamesh.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 2, 2002 - 04:14 am
    "At the opening of the Iliad the Greeks are despondent, homesick, and decimated with disease. They had been delayed at Aulis by sickness and a windless sea. Agamemnon had embittered Clytaemnestra, and prepared his own fate, by sacrificing their daughter Iphigenia for a breeze.

    "On the way up the coast the Greeks had stopped here and there to replenish their supplies of food and concubines. Agamemnon had taken the fair Chryseis, Achilles the fair Briseis. A sooothsayer now declares that Apollo is withholding success from the Greeks because Agamemnon has violated the daughter of Apollo's priest, Chryses. The King restores Chryseis to her father, but, to console himself and point a tale, he compels Briseis to leave Achilles and takes Chryseis' place in the royal tent.

    "Achilles convokes a general assembly, and denounces Agamemnon with a wrath that provides the first word and the recurring theme of the Iliad. He vows that neither he nor is soldiers will any longer stir a hand to help the Greeks."

    I don't know. Sure sounds to me like two men fighting over the same woman -- Apollo notwithstanding. And the supply of concubines had to be replenished? I didn't know there was any attrition. Perhaps someone here can help me to understand how the supply of concubines can diminish.

    Robby

    Bubble
    November 2, 2002 - 05:35 am
    They could be sea sick, home sick, with child or running away?Or plain worn out! On the other hand I have heard that - then surely, now I won't venture - men don't like to be served the same stew everyday, especially if they can have more exotic food. To me that part was crystal clear! That war was very long.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 2, 2002 - 05:40 am
    Bubble:--I just LOVE the way you present thoughts!!

    Robby

    moxiect
    November 2, 2002 - 08:12 am
    Rob - Words have described Wars as History and Literature shows between Nations during and after the duration of it. Sometimes the hindsight helps future generations especially if it presents the TRUE facts without embellishment.

    I, too, like the way Bubbles presents her thoughts!

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 2, 2002 - 12:21 pm
    Durant continues to quote from the second, third and fourth books of the Iliad:--"We pass in review the ships and tribes of the asssembled force, and see bluff Menelaus engaging Paris in single combat to decide the war. The two armies sit down in civilized truce. Priam joins Agamemnon in solemn sacrifice to the gods. Menelaus overcomes Paris, but Aphrodite snatches the lad safely away in a cloud and deposits him, miraculously powdered and perfumed, upon his marriage bed.

    "Helen bids him return to the fight, but he counterproposes that they 'give the hour to dalliance.' The lady, flattered by desire, yields.

    "Agamemnon declares Menelaus victor, and the war is apparently ended, but the gods, in imitative council on Olympus, demand more blood. Zeus votes for peace, but withdraws his vote in terrified retreat when Hera, his spouse, directs her speech upon him. She suggests that if Zeus will agree to the destruction of Troy, she will allow him to raze Mycenae, Argos, and Sparta to the ground. The war is renewed. Many a man falls pierced by arrow, lance, or sword, and 'darkness enfolds his eyes.'"

    Obviously the women are running the show. Helen sends her man back to battle. And Troy is destroyed and many a man dies because Zeus (the top god so to speak!) is henpecked.

    Robby

    Bubble
    November 2, 2002 - 12:56 pm
    It does sound farcical, resumed like that.



    Have you ever heard the words of the opera-bouffe "La belle Helene", by Offenbach? It is inspired of course by Helena of Troy and is hilarious.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 2, 2002 - 05:15 pm
    Durant speaks of Book Five of the Iliad:--"The gods join in the merry slicing game. Ares, the awful god of war, is hurt by Diomed's spear, 'utters a cry as of nine th ousand men,' and runs off to complain to Zeus."

    Then from Book Six:--"In a pretty interlude the Trojan leader Hector, before rejoining the battle, bids good-by to his wife Andromache. She whispers, 'Love, thy stout heart will be my death. Nor has thou pity of thy child or me, who shall soon be a widow. My father and my mother and my brothers all are slain. But, Hector, thou art father to me and mother, and thou art the husband of my youth. Have pity, then, and stay here in the tower.' He answers, 'Full well I know that Troy will fall, and I foresee the sorrow of my brothers and the King. For them I grieve not. But to think of thee a slave in Argos unmans me almost. Yet, even so, I will not shirk the fight.'

    "His infant son Astyanax, destined shortly to be flung over the walls to death by the victorious Greeks, screams in fright at Hector's waving plumes, and the hero removes his helmet that he may laugh, weep, and pray over the wondering child. Then he strides down the causeway to the battle and engages Ajax, King of Salamis, in single combat.

    "They fight bravely, and separate at nightfall with exchange of praise and gifts -- a flower of courtesy floating on a sea of blood."

    Something unknown to us of this era -- a war decided by a single fight between two individuals and including an exchange of gifts.

    Robby

    North Star
    November 2, 2002 - 05:30 pm
    A man has to do what a man has to do.

    In this war, both sides have the same religion so the fight is about territory, not religion which is the excuse for so many wars in our history.

    Bubble
    November 3, 2002 - 01:11 am
    A war decided by a single fight between two individuals



    Isn't that reminescent of David and Goliath?

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 3, 2002 - 05:29 am
    Durant continues with comments about various books in Homer's Iliad:--"Nestor, King of Elian Pylus, advises Agamemnon to restore Briseis to Achilles. He agrees, and promises Achilles half of Greece if he will rejoin the siege. But Achilles continues to pout. Odysseus and Diomed make a two-man sally upon the Trojan camp at night, and slay a dozen chieftains.

    "Agamemnon leads his army valiantly, is wounded, and retires. Odyssus, surrounded, fights like a lion. Ajax and Menelaus cleave a path to him, and save him for a bitter life. When the Trojans advance to the walls that the Greeks hve built about their camp, Hera is so disturbed that she resolves to rescue the Greeks. Oiled, perfumed, ravishingly gowned, and bound with Aphrodite's aphrodisiac girdle, she seduces Zeus to a divine slumber while Poseidon helps the Greeks to drive the Trojans back.

    "Advantage fluctuates. The Trojans reach the Greek ships, and the poet rises to a height of fervid narrative as the Greeks fight desperately in a retreat that must mean death."

    This may be about a war but I keep seeing a story about the personalities of men and the influences of the women in their lives. Achilles wants the "fair" Briseis back from Agamemnon. He gets her back but this, apparently, is not enough because even after half of Greece is promised to him, he continues to "pout." Poor boy!

    Then the head goddess, Hera, gets into the act, and wearing a sexy girdle, puts the head god into a sleep enabling Poseidon to help the Greeks.

    I wonder if Homer didn't describe the various gods with the usual human personalities and we are seeing what went on during the war among the various humans. It was, after all, a war that lasted nine years!

    Robby

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    November 3, 2002 - 05:56 am
    "Obviously the women are running the show. Helen sends her man back to battle. And Troy is destroyed and many a man dies because Zeus (the top god so to speak!) is henpecked."

    "Then the head goddess, Hera, gets into the act, and wearing a sexy girdle, puts the head god into a sleep enabling Poseidon to help the Greeks."


    I love that Robby, especially the "top god" and "head god" both of whom were toppled by the cunning of a beautiful women.

    And who says that women are not equal to men?

    The more I read in S of C the more I see the ancients elevating to a godly status anyone who distinguished themselves mostly in war and acquiring territories. Today, we have Heads of State but they are seldom raised to godly status. Why is that?

    Eloïse

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    November 3, 2002 - 09:56 am
    Firstly, it was a human downfall to bring the divinity to the level of human beings. It was easier for their pride to blame the Gods for their human failures then to face the responsibilty of their own weaknesses. Secondly, the status of women was recognised as being very powerful if you see the Goddess Athena emerge from the crown of Zeus as His pure power in war to destroy the evil and sustain his energy. In the Iliad, already you see a downfall in the divine since she is not seen to have the power as was recognised by the Myceans who build the Parthenon in her honnor. All the God figures are brought down to a very low level of human nature to justify the atrocities of the war.

    P.S. Robby, I did subsribe??

    Françoise

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 3, 2002 - 10:10 am
    Durant continues with further books in the Iliad:--"Patroclus, beloved of Achilles, wins his permission to lead Achilles' troops against Troy. Hector slays him and fights Ajax fiercely over the body of the youth. Hearing of Patroclus' death, Achilles at last resolves to fight.

    "His goddess-mother Thetis persuades the divine smithy, Hephaestus, to forge for him new arms and a mighty shield. Achilles is reconcilzed with Agamemnon, engages Aeneas, and is about to kill him when Poseidon rescues him for Virgil's purposes. Achilles slaughters a host of Trojans, and sends them to Hades with long genealogical speeches.

    "The gods take up the fight. Athena lays Ares low with a stone, and when Aphrodite, going for a soldier, tries to save him, Athena knocks her down with a blow upon her fair breast. Hera cuffs the ears of Artemis. Poseidon and Apollo content themselves with words.

    "All Trojans but Hector fly from Achilles. Priam and Hecuba counsel Hector to stay behind the walls, but he refuses. Then suddenly, as Achilles advances upon him, Hector takes to his heels. Achilles pursues him three times around the walls of Troy. Hector makes a stand, and is killed."

    I see here not a war with a moving front but a stationary one, as the term "siege" implies. Troy has a wall around it and the Greeks have built a wall around their camp. Troy couldn't have been too big if one man chases another man three times around the walls.

    And now we see not just the women encouraging the men to fight each other but one woman-god (Athena) striking another woman-god (Aphrodite). Sounds to me not like a war, as we know it, but a free-for-all among individuals who were compelled to stay in one spot for nine years.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 3, 2002 - 10:11 am
    Francoise:--Did you register with Senior Net? Giving your email, your name, and other info it requested?

    Robby

    tooki
    November 3, 2002 - 11:38 am
    Francoise sees that as "all the God figures are brought down to a very low level of human nature to justify the atrocities of war." There ought to be a more important moral than the low level of human nature. We all sorta know that, I think. The whole story is so primitively bloody that perhaps it's comic relief. It reminds me of a Buster Kenton - Keystone Cop episode, with Buster playing Achilles.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 3, 2002 - 01:57 pm
    Tooki:--What is that "more important moral" in the Iliad that "we all sorta know?"

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 3, 2002 - 02:11 pm
    "In the subsiding finale of the drama Patroclus is cremated with ornate ritual. Achilles sacrifices to him many cattle, twelve captured Trojans, and his own long hair. The Greeks honor Patroclus with games, and Achilles drags the corpse of Hector behind his chariot three times around the pyre.

    Priam comes in state and sorrow to beg for the remains of his son. Achilles relents, grants a truce of twelve days, and allows the aged king to take the cleansed and anointed body back to Troy."

    Marvelle
    November 3, 2002 - 07:07 pm
    Akhilles did not have to fight. At this point in Ancient Greece, there were many separate Rulers/Houses and one might help the other in battle but it was their choice. Personal worth was everything at that time for when you die there is nothing. You cease to exist and only your tales of valor and honor may live on.

    Akhilles honor was sleighted when the slave-girl was denied him and she was his by right by battle. This was a right that Menelaus had not earned. Thus Akhilles refused to fight as a matter of personal honor rather than love of a woman.

    There is a lot of humor in the gods. They have squabbles and love affairs and even enter battle but -- and this is quite important -- they will never die. They will never face that tragic human condition. When the gods fight, they hit each other, cause blood, and cry all the way back to Olympus. It's funny because they are like children playing. It is a game to them and yet they play with human lives.

    Akhilles is at a war that is not his cause; it is the cause of Menelaus. Akhilles knows, for it has been decreed by the gods, that if he fights he will die. Yet he finally goes into battle, not for Menelaus or for Helen, but for his friend Patroklus. The death of Akhilles occurs beyond the books of The Iliad, offstage as it were, and we will see his underworld spirit in The Odyssey.

    Marvelle

    Marvelle
    November 3, 2002 - 10:35 pm
    I should have noted that The Iliad is from the time of a warrior society where the individual has primacy over group actions. This is much like the warrior societies to be found in many Native American cultures.

    Marvelle

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 4, 2002 - 04:59 am
    "We are told by later literature how Paris, standing beside the battle, slew Achilles with an arrow that pierced his vulnerable heel, and how Troy fell at last through the strategem of the wooden horse.

    "The victors returned in weary sadness to their longed-for homes. Many of them were ship-wrecked, and some of these, stranded on alien shores, founded Greek colonies in Asia, the Aegean, and Italy. Menelaus, who had vowed that he would kill Helen, fell in love with her anew when the 'goddess among women' came to him in the calm majesty of her loveliness. Gladly he took her back to be his queen again in Sparta. When Agamemnon reached Mycenae he 'clasped his hand and kissed it, and many were the hot tears that streamed from his eyes.' But during his long absence Clytaemnestra had taken his cousin Aegisthus for husband and king. When Agamemnon entered the palace they slew him.

    "Probably another Homer has told the tale of the home-coming of Odysseus in a poem less powerful and heroic, gentler and pleasanter, than the Iliad. Odysseus, says the Odyssey, is shipwrecked on the island of Ogygia, a fairyland Tahiti, whose goddess-queen Calypso holds him as her lover for eight years while secretly he pines for his wife Penelope and his son Telemachus, who pine for him at Ithaca."

    Lots of "stuff" here! Apparently, as I understand it, the Iliad and the Odyssey were written by two different "Homers." And this later literature is crammed full of names, some of which are familiar to us in our history studies and some of which are not. Paris -- Achilles -- Helen -- Sparta --Ogygia -- Calypso -- Penelope -- Telemachus -- Ithaca. Any reactions?

    Robby

    Bubble
    November 4, 2002 - 05:18 am
    I grew up on Greek mythology, legends and history, the same as the discoverer of Troy. I had no ambition to use it, but it fed my fantasies as a child. Calypso, the sirens, the cyclops, the faithful Penelope, they all are so familiar. I suppose it can be compared to the interest nowadays teens have for cinema artists or singers, with much less scope. Bubble

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 4, 2002 - 08:33 am
    There are interesting links about the Trojan War and some of the participants, as well as maps, on the page accessed through the link below.

    AFTERMATH OF THE TROJAN WAR

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 4, 2002 - 09:53 am
    Bubble has posted in the WREX discussion that she and her family are all right after the bombing in Israel which took place a 20 minute drive from where she is.

    Mal

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    November 4, 2002 - 11:00 am
    I have been thinking about that since I heard the news this morning. Thank God you are all right Bubble...Eloïse

    Marvelle
    November 4, 2002 - 12:00 pm
    The great Homeric Question is identical to the Shakespeare Question. Did Homer compose these tales, or did another Homer? Today it's generally accepted that the nod is given to Homer as the composer of The Iliad and The Odyssey but that oral tales would have been revised and revised orally until the tradition of writing developed. I'm just happy we have The Iliad and The Odyssey.

    Bubble, glad you are alright.

    Marvelle

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 4, 2002 - 05:59 pm
    Durant tells us about the first four books of the Odyssey:--"Athena persuades Zeus to bid Calypso let Odysseus depart. The goddess flies to Telemachus, and hears with sympathy the youth's simple tale -- how the princes of Ithaca and its vassal isles are paying court to Penelope, seeking through her the throne, and how meanwhile they live gaily in Odysseus' palace, and consume his substance.

    "Telemachus bids the suitors disperse, but they laugh at his youth. Secretly he embarks upon the sea in search of his father, while Penelope, mourning now for both husband and son, holds off the suitors by promising to wed one of them when she has completed her web -- of which she unweaves at night as much as she has woven by day.

    "Telemachus visits Nestor at Pylus and Menelaus at Sparta, but neither can tell him where to find his father. The poet paints an attractive picture of Helen settled and subdued, but still divinely beautiful. She has long since been forgiven her sins, and remarks that when Troy fell she had grown tired of the city anyway."

    Forgive me if it sounds like a soap opera.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 5, 2002 - 03:23 am
    "Now for the first time Odysseus enters the tale. 'Sitting on the shore' of Calypso's isle, 'his eyes were dry of tears, and his sweet life ebbed away, as he longed mournrfully for his return. By night indeed he would sleep by Calypso's side perforce in the hollow caves, unwilling beside the willing nymph, but by day he would sit on the rocks and the sands, rocking his soul with tears and groans, and looking over the unresting sea.' Calypso, having detained him one night more, bids him make a raft and set out alone.

    "After many struggles with the ocean, Odysseus lands in the mythical country of Phaeacia (possibly Corcyra-Corfu), and is found by the maiden Nausicaa, who leads him to the palace of her father, King Aleinous. The lass falls in love with the strong-limbed, strong-hearted hero, and confides to her companions: 'Listen, my white-armed maidens. Erewhile this man seemed to me uncomely, but now he is like the gods that keep wide heaven. Would that such a one might be called my husband, dwelling here, and that it might please him here to abide.' Odysseus makes so good an impression that Alcinous offers him Nausicaa's hand. Odysseus excuses himself, but is glad to tell the story of his return from Troy."

    Anyone who has felt the strong pangs of nostalgia will understand how such an emotion can outweigh any other feelings. Any comments?

    Robby

    MaryPage
    November 5, 2002 - 10:41 am
    Oh Yes! Yearning for home is one of the strongest of instincts!

    And life IS just one big soap opera. A lot of these tales of "the gods" are actually stories of real people who became god-like beings in the minds of those who told and retold and retold, constantly adding to and exaggerating as the years passed, their stories; their "soap operas!"

    Remember this: much later, in the time of the Roman Caesars, it was still believed that famous people, heroes of the people, could become gods when they died. Then the people were asked to worship their rulers as gods while they were still living! This was one of the big problems between the Jews and the Romans when Israel was a Roman State. I believe all of this to be a hand-me-down from the Greeks!

    PLAYING TO SELL OUT CROWDS AFTER 2,500 YEARS!

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 5, 2002 - 11:40 am
    Comes November, and I am besieged by feelings of nostalgia that last until the holidays are over and the new year has come in. Regardless how much I talk to myself and say firmly that the past of my childhood was hard and painful, I want to go "home".

    I tried it once; went back to live in my hometown after a 27 year absence. Thomas Wolfe was right. What I was looking for wasn't there. The New England I long for, when the leaves begin to turn and there's a chill in the air, doesn't exist and probably never did. I know all these things, and still I want to go home.

    Not too long ago, doctors were gods. The President of the United States was some kind of a god. My favorite musician when I was a kid was a god -- Sergei Rachmaninoff. I went to hear him play when I was 9 or 10, I guess. To me, being so close to that tall man-god with the very large hands and long fingers was being in church. My heroes and heroines. I don't have many any more, and I certainly don't worship the Great God McDonald's at the golden arch temple, though I remember worshiping Gene Kelly when I knew I'd never dance like that again.

    Okay, I'm going to look out the big triangular window over there at the gray sky brightened by 100 feet trees whose leaves are turning to rust and indulge in some nostalgia again.

    Mal

    Lady C
    November 5, 2002 - 03:08 pm
    ROBBY:

    Sometimes the nostalgia isn't for a place but for the paople--or perhaps the person one was--in that place at a particular time in one's life. Odysseus' nostalgia, I think was for all three, the place the people and for himself at the time he left. His "sweet tears" at the thought of his life leaking away as he sat there seem to me to indicate that.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 5, 2002 - 03:23 pm
    Durant relates the following from Books IX, X, XI, and XII of the Odyssey."His ships (Odysseus tells the King) were borne off their course to the land of the Lotus-Eaters, who gave his men such honey-sweet lotus fruit that many forgot their homes and their longing, and Odysseus had to force them back to their ships. There they sailed to the Land of the Cyclopes, one-eyed giants who lived without law or labor on an island abounding in wild grain and fruit. Caught in a cave by the Cyclop Polyphemus, who ate several of his men, Odysseus saved the remnant by lulling the monster to sleep with wine, and then burning out his single eye.

    "The wanderers took again to the sea and came to the land of the Laetrygonians. But these, too, were cannibals, and only Odysseus's ship escaped them. He and his mates reached next the isle of Aenea, where the lovely and treacherous goddess Circe lured most of them into her cave with song, drugged them, and turned them into swine. Odysseus was about to slay her when he changed his mind and accepted her love. He and his comrades, now restored to human form, remained with Circe a full year.

    "Setting sail again, they came to a land perpetually dark, which proved to be the entrance to Hades. There Odysseus talked with the shades of Agamemnon, Achilles, and his mother.

    "Resuming their voyage, they passed the island of the Sirens, against whose seductive strains Odysseus protected his men by putting wax into their ears. In the staits (Messina?) of Scylla and Charybdis his ship was wrecked, and he alone survived, to live to eight long years on Calypso's isle."

    How much of this do you folks believe is based on some form of fact? Did they make such a voyage? Is there an element of truth regarding the various places they visited?

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 5, 2002 - 04:12 pm
    Sure they did, or somebody else did.

    Here's one artist's idea of what Circe looked like.

    CIRCE INVIDIOSA BY JOHN WILLIAM WATERHOUSE

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 5, 2002 - 05:23 pm
    "Alcinous is so moved with sympathy by Odysseus' tale that he bids his men row Odysseus to Ithaca, but to blindfold him less he learn and reveal the location of their happy land. On Ithaca the goddess Athena guides the wanderer to the hut of his old swineherd Eumaeus, who though not recognizing him, receives him with Gargantuan hospitality.

    "When Telemachus is led by the goddess to the same hut Odysseus makes himself known to his son, and both 'wail aloud vehemently.' He unfolds to Telemachus a plan for slaying all the suitors. In the guise of a beggar he enters his palace, sees the wooers feasting at his expense, and rages inwardly when he hears that they lie with his maidservants at night even while courting Penelope by day. He is insulted and injured by the suitors, but he defends himself with vigor and patience.

    "By this time the wooers have discovered the trick of Penelope's web, and have forced her to finish it. She agrees to marry which ever of them can string Odysseus' great bow -- which hangs on the wall -- and shoot an arrow through the openings of twelve axes ranged in line. They all try, and all fail. Odysseus asks for a chance, and succeeds.

    "Then with a wrath that frightenens everyone, he casts off his disguise, turns his arrows upon the suitors, and, with the help of Telemachus, Eumaeus, and Athena, slays them all. He finds it hard to convince Penelope that he is Odysseus. It is difficult to surrender twenty suitors for one husband.

    "He meets the attack of the suitors's sons, pacifies them, and re-establishes his kingdom."

    So it appears that Penelope wasn't too miserable being courted by twenty men. Intriguing?

    Robby

    Bubble
    November 6, 2002 - 01:45 am
    Odysseus was a very resourceful man and a bon-vivant at the same time: while he put wax in the ears of his sailors, he had himself tied to the main mast so he would not tempted to jump over board to join the sirens, but he could still listen to their songs! When he blinded the one-eyed cyclop and Polyphemus started grabbing around to catch him, he hid and held himself under the underbelly of a sheep and thus was let outside and escaped. I can tell you that this passage sounds particularly harmonious in Greek; I can still remember our awe as highschoolers when teacher was declaiming by heart the text.



    And yes, I believe there is much truth in this narration. About places certainly. Twenty years ago I was on a short cruise from Israel to Italy. We sailed through Charybdis and Scylla on the way to Messina. As Homer mentionned, the waters were so turbulent and the waves were so high in the swimming pool that they were overflowing on the deck. We were advised not to bathe until we were through. Odysseus blamed a monster that lived under a rock opposine of Scylla, which monster three times a day swallowed and threw up the waters of the sea. It is an attractive explanation for a natural phenomenon.


    Bubble

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    November 6, 2002 - 02:37 am
    Lovely, lovely Bubble and if your teacher declaimed it in Greek does it means that all of you understood the language? Which other language do you know besides, French, English, Hebrew, Italian, Spanish, Greek???

    MaryPage
    November 6, 2002 - 05:00 am
    One thing I especially have a problem with is the years involved. Ten years at Troy. Years to get home. Later we read of an 800 year old man and a woman giving birth at over 90. I think people could not keep track of time well in those days, so they embroidered what seemed like a long time with any numbers they thought would emphasize the length of the ordeal. And, telling these stories and bragging on the feats, over the years the time period just grew and grew.

    Without education, it is astonishing how little attention people pay to calendars and clocks. We who live by them have great difficulty imagining existing that way. I was horrified to hear just recently that most people in Afghanistan have no idea how old they are or even what date their birthday falls on. Pressed, they just make up numbers!

    Bubble
    November 6, 2002 - 06:05 am
    Jambo Eloise! I did four years of the required five of ancient Greek in highschool as well as five years of latin. But I don't speak them and don't even understand them. Only a few words left and of course all the roots of words helping to understand "difficult words" in European languages. I do speak pidgin Swahili.



    MaryPage, were you thinking of our ancestor Sarah when you mentionned the 90y old woman? Or the wondering in the desert during 40y as is mentionned in the Bible?



    The Africans never paid attention to dates and such, they counted the time past by generations . Were you to ask my age, I would have to start counting on my fingers! I know my date of birth but never think of "age" as a number. It has so little importance, don't you think? Bubble

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    November 6, 2002 - 06:40 am
    THAT'S IT BUBBLE, I knew I was forgetting Swahili, but could not remember the name of it. I know an Indian song people think my father made up, but the sound of it is like what the Mohawk Indian language sounds. I remember every word. Of course he was born a mile away from an Indian reservation, that would explain his 'facilité' (also his descendent's native blood line).

    "I know my date of birth but never think of "age" as a number. It has so little importance, don't you think?" Mille fois bravo Bubble, that is exactly my philosophy. If we are expected to live to 100, you have not even reached 3/4 of a century yet? Think of how much you can write in the time you have left.

    Whether it is true or not is of no importance to me, the Odyssy is music to my ears and I never question the accuracy of music if it elevates my soul.

    Eloïse

    monas
    November 6, 2002 - 11:28 am
    When the seed of a tree is planted in the earth, it feels at home and will grow from the water that comes from the source. If that source becomes spoiled the tree can fall sick.

    Don't mind me I am a philosopher and it may sound too serious for you but the only source that is real for me is Love. Probably the driving force behind Homer's story of Helen and Penelope.

    Françoise

    MaryPage
    November 6, 2002 - 02:49 pm
    Yes, BUBBLE, I was thinking of Sara; and yes, the 40 years has always bothered me. I mean, the desert in question is just NOT THAT BIG! Even if it had been the Sahara or the Gobi, shoot, even back then men followed the stars to find their way! Color me disbelieving.

    North Star
    November 6, 2002 - 05:32 pm
    Forty years in the desert meant more than a generation. Noah floating on the ark 40 days and 40 nights meant more than a month. 40 is a very common number in the Bible just like twelve is.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 6, 2002 - 05:58 pm
    Francoise:--You suggest that "love is the driving force behind the Oddysey." Would you expand a bit on that, please?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 6, 2002 - 06:20 pm
    "Meanwhile in Argos the greatest tragedy in Greek legend was pursuing its course. Orestes, son of Agamemnon, grown to manhood and aroused by his bitter sister Electra, avenged their father by murdering their mother and her paramour. After many years of madness and wandering Oretes ascended the throne of Argos-Mycenae (ca. 1176 B.C.) and later added Sparta to his kingdom.

    From his accession the house of Pelops began to decline. Perhaps the decline had begun with Agamemnon, and that vacillating chieftain had used war as a means of uniting a realm that was already falling to pieces. But his victory completed his ruin. Few of his chieftains ever returned, and the kingdoms of many others had lost all loyalty to them.

    "The people waited patiently for a saner dynasty."

    Dynasties rise and dynasties fall.

    Robby

    Justin
    November 6, 2002 - 11:27 pm
    I have been away from the computer for a week. Upon my return I find you have posted 70 messages in my absence. When I left we were discussing Homer and when I returned the Homeric discussion continued in progress. It looks as though we have come to the end of Achean society and will soon experience the Dorian invasion as well as the dark ages of Greek history. Before leaving Homer and the Acheans it would be well if we were to separate myth from reality. What is real in Homer?

    1. The bumpy seascape around Scylla and Charybdis. 2. The existance of slavery in the society. 3. The mixed view of women. Concubinage exists along with marital fidelity.Women are seen as personal property, as chattel. 4. The nuclear family is part of Achaean society. 5. The Achaeans were a warrior society. 6. The Achaeans were tribally organized. 7. Achaeans risked their lives in combat for personal honor. 8. The Achaeans were seamen as well as warriors. 9. Homosexuality was an accepted part of the culture. 10. The list is open ended...

    Bubble
    November 7, 2002 - 12:31 am
    Wow Justin, you do have an organized mind. But you are right. Could also be added the readiness of men to invent sirens and sorceress to excuse their straying? But that is not only in Homer, Eve was the first or is it Lilith?



    The Achean age was certainly an inspiring one for writers and poets.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 7, 2002 - 04:48 am
    Bubble emailed me this link to a child's version of THE ADVENTURES OF ULYSSES by Charles Lamb written in 1808. It is very detailed and is furnished free by Eldritch Publishing. A great opportunity to get youngers folks interested in Ancient Greece.

    I think Charles Lamb did a marvelous job and due credit to Eldritch in making this available. I recommend your looking it over with perhaps your grandchildren in mind. Thank you, Bubble!

    Robby

    MaryPage
    November 7, 2002 - 05:12 am
    I read that and also Lamb's Tales from Shakespeare as a child in the 5th grade. A Wonderful grounding in both sets of stories!

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 7, 2002 - 05:14 am
    I go under the assumption that everyone here periodically stops while scrolling through the Heading to examine the quotes in GREEN. This helps to keep us all together in the book.

    "Through Illyria and Thessaly, across the Corinthian Gulf at Naupactus, and over the Isthmus at Corinth, a warlike people, tall, roundheaded, letterless, slipped or marched or poured into the Peloponnesus, mastered it, and almost completely destroyed Mycenaean civilization. We guess at their origin and their route, but we know their character and their effect. They were still in the herding and hunting stage. Now and then they stopped to till the soil, but their main reliance was upon their cattle, whose need for new pasturage kept the tribes ever on the move.

    "One thing they had in unheard of quantity -- iron. They were the emissaries of the Hallstatt culture to Greece. The hard metal of their swords and souls gave them a merciless supremacy over Achaeans and Cretans who still used bronze to kill. Probably from both west and east, from Elis and Megara, they came down upon the separate little kingdoms of the Peloponnesus, put the ruling classes to the sword, and turned the Mycenaean remnant into helot-serfs. Mycenae and Tiryns went up in flames, and for some centuries, Argos became the capital of Pelops' isle.

    "On the Isthmus the invaders seized a commanding peak -- the Acrocorinthus -- and built around it the Dorian city of Corinth. The surviving Achaeans fled, some of them into the mountains of the northern Peloponnesus, some into Attica, some overseas to the islands and coasts of Asia. The conquerors followed them into Attica, but were repulsed. They followed them to Crete and made final the destruction of Cnossus. They captured and colonized Melos, Thera, Cos, Cnidus, and Rhodes.

    "Throughout the Peloponnesus and Crete, where the Mycenaean culture had most flourished, the devastation was most complete."

    At this point Durant gives us a lot to work on and reminds us that what we are reading in seconds took place over a period of centuries. I never cease to marvel, not only at Durant's ability as a historian, but his writing capability and choice of words which keep me glued to this series of volumes -- for example, "slipped or marched or poured" and "the hard metal of their swords and souls." Let us pause a bit to examine in detail this period of history and look in detail at some of what Durant just told us.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 7, 2002 - 05:27 am
    Click HERE to see a map of the routes the Dorians took to central and southern Greece, Crete, and over to Asia Minor.

    Robby

    tooki
    November 7, 2002 - 07:11 am
    Perhaps the importance of Homer is in his unifying function. The poems led to the feeling on the part of those multitudinous Greek tribes that they shared a common identity. The Greek heroic ancestors, the ethics and ideals embodied in the poems, contributed to the sense of an Hellenic people. Perhaps even Olympus functioned as a tribal meeting place where each God championed his own hero and tribe. This shared consciousness was necessary for the creation of the glory that was Greece.

    monas
    November 7, 2002 - 01:43 pm
    To answer your question Robby I would refer again to the marriage. Men and women have changed over the centuries no doupt, but the honnor of a man towards his marriage is sacred. It is my belief that when a marriage occurs, the couple become one in their soul. That is the force behind the Oddysey and the Iliad. Until the couple was reunited, their was no peace in their mind and soul.

    Françoise

    showdog
    November 7, 2002 - 02:13 pm
    Robby

    I happened onto seniornet just recently. Of all the discussions, this one is I would like to give the most attention. My question at this point is how far in the second volume is everyone? I am reading as fast as I can (alas, I am not a fast reader) so I can get to a point where I feel comfortable enough to express an opinion.

    North Star
    November 7, 2002 - 03:49 pm
    I think Francois has a point. As long as Odysseus and Penelope were apart, there was war and chaos. The war and chaos is symbolic of their sorrow at being apart and the happily ever after part brings peace.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 7, 2002 - 04:25 pm
    Showdog:--May I compliment you on your taste having decided to "give the most attention" to this discussion group! If you have a copy of The Life of Greece, then you will find us on Page 62 under the subheading of "The Dorian Conquest."

    Being a fast reader is not a beneficial attribute here. We discuss in depth. We do not just read. We spend time discussing the pages, even the paragraphs -- yea, even the very words that Durant hands us. In addition to that, Durant's comments often suggest related topics which we discuss among ourselves. Depending on our interest, sometimes we move ahead rapidly in just one day. At other times, we may spend almost a week sharing our thoughts about one topic.

    No one here pretends to be an expert, least of all your Discussion Leader. We merely give our opinions and agree or disagree with each other. Sometimes we disagree with Durant. All that is asked is that we do not stray too far or too often from the theme. Each time that you enter this forum and pass through the Heading, stop to examine the quotes in GREEN which change periodically and help to notify those without the book where we are as well as help all of us to remain together as we trade our thoughts.

    We are looking forward to hearing your thoughts.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 7, 2002 - 04:32 pm
    Durant continues:--

    "This terminal catastrophe is what Greek tradition called the Return of the Heracleidae. For the victors were not content to record their triumph as a conquest of a civilized people by barbarians. They protested that what had really happened was that the descendants of Heracles, resisted in their just re-entry into the Peloponnesus, had taken it by heroic force. We do not know how much of this is history, and how much is diplomatic mythology designed to transform a bloody conquest into a divine right. It is difficult to believe that the Dorians were such excellent liars in the very youth of the world.

    "Perhaps, as disputants will never allow, both stories were true. The Dorians were conquerors from the north, led by the scions of Heracles."

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 7, 2002 - 04:42 pm
    Durant states that the Dorians came down throug Illyria. This LINK tells of the connection between Illyria and modern day Albania.

    Robby

    MaryPage
    November 7, 2002 - 05:02 pm
    WELCOME ABOARD, SHOWDOG!


    We are on page 62, while I have been waiting for us up on page 67 for a week or more. It's great fun in here, and MAL finds links that are amazing.

    More notes from this reader: page 63:
    every man, feeling unsafe, carried arms; Sounds like our own times! Same page: racial antipathies between Dorian and Ionian that were to incarnadine all Greece - Sigh! Perhaps it is built in that we always despise "the other"? Anyway, I learned my new word for the day: incarnadine: flesh colored or blood red. Does Durant mean it bloodied the whole terrain of Greece? Help!

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 7, 2002 - 05:25 pm
    Here is a MAP showing Illyria just across from Italy.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 7, 2002 - 06:06 pm
    Here is a MAP showing the location of Thessaly through which the Dorians traveled in their invasion toward Greece. Click onto the map to enlarge.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 7, 2002 - 06:29 pm
    Here is ANOTHER MAP showing the Corinthian Gulf and Corinth toward which the Dorians headed.

    Robby

    Justin
    November 7, 2002 - 07:07 pm
    The introduction of marriage as the driving force in Homer's works is an interesting one. Menelaus's wife is carried off by a Trojan. He, Menelaus, enlists the aid of his brother, Agamemnon, and several other royal Achaeans in her rescue. Helen, meanwhile, is enjoying her stay in Troy. When Menelaus's vengence is interupted by the gods, a question arises about divine support for the honor of a wronged husband. Menelaus and Helen return home conjoined in new bliss but the odyssey continues.

    Odysseus remains separated from Penelope. Eight years he spends with some hotsy totsies until finally he breaks away allowing him to try again to return. It is the gods who delay him in his homeward quest. His marital obligations are tested and retested by agents of the gods who can not be said to be in support of his fidelity. The books, as we know them, end with a familial homecoming giving final endorsement to the nuclear family.

    I'd like to say this is a book about marriage and the honor of the husband. But I know that tribal man thought little of women and placed small value on thier well being. The plight of Iphegenia is a case in point. Why would Agamemnon sacrifice a favorite daughter to recover the wife of his brother? Clearly, there is conflict in the valuation of women and in the message of Homer.

    Marvelle
    November 7, 2002 - 09:04 pm
    I think that going to war for the return of Helen was a matter of honor rather than love of a specific woman? Helen was a beautifu young girl who had many suitors (apparently her father was wealthy) but the father chose Menelaus. Since all the suitors had sworn to protect the marriage of whoever was chosen, it was a contract of loyalty among the various chieftains. The stealing of Helen could be seen then as not only an affront to Menelaus the husband but also to Menelaus the powerful chieftain?

    Marvelle

    Justin
    November 8, 2002 - 01:46 am
    That's an interesting postulate, Marvelle. I'd better have another look at the Iliad. So they all swore to protect the marriage and thus became obligated to bring the girl back. Were Odyseus and Agamemnon also suiters? (before Penelope and Clytemnestra of course.)

    Bubble
    November 8, 2002 - 01:52 am
    Marvelle, that is a new facet for me too. Very plausible. Prods for more thinking.



    Justin, of course! Bubble

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    November 8, 2002 - 03:33 am
    The link Robby just posted brought me to this GREAT LINKS TO IMAGES OF GREEK MYTHOLOGY where we can see statues of Helen of Troy and Zeus. Be sure to browse around, all the images are very beautiful.

    Justin, I don't think that the women in the Illiad felt like chattel. Perhaps it is a term applied at large about the condition of women, but if women had written about ancient history they might not have had that point of view.

    Eloïse

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 8, 2002 - 04:18 am
    Eloise:--That is a terrific link!! I agree. Browse around. I like that list of quotes. Spend some time there, folks, and then come back with your reactions.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 8, 2002 - 05:05 am
    Durant continues speaking of the Dorian conquest:--

    "Political order was disturbed for centuries. Every man, feeling unsafe, carried arms. Increasing violence disrupted agriculture and trade on land, and commerce on the seas. War flourished. Poverty deepened and spread. Life became unsettled as families wandered from country to country seeking security and peace.

    "Hesiod called this the Age of Iron, and mourned its debasement from the finer ages that had preceded it. Many Greeks believed that 'the discovery of iron had been to the hurt of man.'

    "The arts languished, painting was neglected, statuary contented itself with figurines. Pottery, forgetting the lively naturalism of Mycenae and Crete, degenerated into a lifeless 'Geometrical Style' that dominated Greek ceramics for centuries."

    Does this indicate, as was often seen in Our Oriental Heritage, that civilization moves in cycles? Did the people living in that era think that perhaps "it was the end?" Anyone here see a similarity with life around the world in our Year of 2002?

    Robby

    MaryPage
    November 8, 2002 - 08:20 am
    I do not believe the stories are about marriage, or even about love. I believe they are about heroes and battles and conquests and adventures and bravery. I truly believe a wish to avenge a chieftain's wife being stolen and carried off was a matter of avenging honor. It would have been the same for, say, the stolen golden fleece or the crown jewels.

    Most women in most places have never considered themselves to be chattel, although some have had no self esteem whatsoever and thus have so considered themselves. However, most women in most places have been too, too aware that most men do look upon women as chattel, of much less value than men, or close to useless. I, myself, have known too many men who bought into these terrible values. Today the world we live in is rampant with these values. Whole religions teach them as truth from God! This is why we fight back, and men have called us feminists and tried to make it a dirty word.

    Page 64:
    helped the colonial cities to leap ahead of their mother states in literature and art I find this comment interesting. Later Durant says the civilization had grown course at its base because of all the war and plunder. I think this is very profound and bears a lot of thinking about in relation to our own times.

    monas
    November 8, 2002 - 08:21 am
    I will elaborate further on the driving force that I call love. It is an energy which encompasses the various aspects of the will of men to live in a dignified, honorable and dutiful way. Not to be mistaken with the sentiment of affection.

    I have to disagree with Justin on the point of sacrifice; to give one's most valuable daughter to please the Gods would be considered the highest expression of sacrifice for this king and an assured success for the oncoming quest. That is to say, if we take this at that time and place.

    Françoise

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 8, 2002 - 10:18 am
    Click the link below to see a picture of a temple, Segesta. It is an example of Doric architecture. Click the small picture to access a larger one.

    SEGESTA

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 8, 2002 - 01:50 pm
    "Not all was lost. Despite the resolution of the invading Dorians to keep their blood free from admixture with that of the subject population -- despite the racial antipathies between Dorian and Ionian that were to incarnadine all Greece -- there went on, rapidly outside of Laconia, slowly within, a mingling of the new stocks with the old. Perhaps the addition of the vigorous seed of Achaeans and Dorians with that of the more ancient and volatile peoples of southern Greece served as a powerful biological stimulant. The final result, after centuries of mingling, was a new and diverse people, in whose blood 'Mediterranean,' 'Alpine,' 'Nordic,' and Asiatic elements were disturbingly fused."

    So, if I get the above -- there was a racial hatred (perhaps such as exists in some places today?) but despite this, sex (also known as a mingling of the stocks) won out. Perhaps love, perhaps marriage -- but definitely sex. Hasn't this occurred in many places at many different times?

    Robby

    MaryPage
    November 8, 2002 - 01:55 pm
    Yep!

    Bubble
    November 8, 2002 - 02:33 pm
    Brazil today...

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 8, 2002 - 03:45 pm
    Excerpt from University of California at Davis Geology Dept. Book:--

    It's clear from the Iliad and the Odyssey that Homer lived in the Iron Age but told his stories about the Bronze Age. This helps to date both the composition of the stories and the events related. Sometime around 1100 BC, smiths discovered that "quenching" a forged steel blade by plunging it quickly into liquid dramatically improved its hardness: Homer describes this process in the Odyssey, but he does not seem to understand it fully. It is not clear whether this is Homer's own lack of understanding, or whether no-one understood just how it worked. What is important, however, is that quenching improves only steel; it has no effect on wrought iron. Homer is describing, therefore, one of the vital steps in producing steel weaponry.

    Quench-hardened steel was still a brittle metal, however, and it was even later that smiths discovered that tempering (reheating quenched steel to moderate heat and allowing it to re-cool slowly) cures the brittleness at only a small cost in hardness. This lengthy series of steps could now be used to make swords and other weapons and tools that combined the best of hardness, strength, and flexibility, and from this time on the superiority of iron and steel over bronze was never challenged.

    The dates are not yet clear. But the transition began about 1200 BC in the Eastern Mediterranean, and coincided with the collapse of almost all the flourishing Bronze Age civilizations in the region: the Hittites, the Myceneans, the Egyptian New Kingdom, and the kingdoms of Ugarit and Alalakh in north Syria. Iron weapons are at first scarce, then more abundant, but they increased uniformly over the entire region, suggesting that no nation had a monopoly of iron technology. Widespread unrest and large-scale movements of populations took place in what must have been very troubled times, and by the time events settled down, 1000 BC, iron tools and weapons were as abundant as those of bronze, and increased in proportion even more as time went on. Probably warfare spurred technology in the 12th century BC as much as it spurred the technology in the 20th century AD: look at the history of automobiles, aircraft, electronics, and space flight.

    Cyprus and Greece may have played an important role in the transition to iron. In Cyprus, the balance tipped very quickly toward iron in only the 150 years of "Late Cypriot III" after 1200 BC. By 1050 BC Cyprus and southern Greece were fully in the Iron Age, and 80% of the working metal of Athens was iron. There is less precise evidence from Crete and from mainland Greece as far north as Macedonia, but they too entered the Iron Age at about this time.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 8, 2002 - 03:56 pm
    Following is a post I made in the review of the book, "Duty," by Bob Greene and it appears to relate to Durant's comment about the "fusing of the Mediterranean, Alpine, and Nordic elements in the process of mingling."

    Unconditional surrender was required in Germany as well although the GI's were more lax about it than in Japan. Allied soldiers were "prohibited" from fraternizing with Germans of all ages and gender. Sex being what it is, this was ignored and the term "fraternizing" came to mean, in the vernacular, going out that night with a German girl.

    Robby

    showdog
    November 8, 2002 - 04:53 pm
    The stories of Homer, it seems to me, were meant to teach people about living in a larger, more organized society than say a hunter/gatherer society. The stories were originated in a very early, pre-literate society. They were oral stories sung by wandering bards long before they were written down and attributed to Homer whoever Homer was. For the most part I am recapping what Durant says in the opening of Homeric Civilization.

    The gods and goddesses in Greek myth are like mortals in appearance and in behavior; yet, they are truely immortal and not to be taken for granted. They are to be appealed, appeased and prayed to. If Paris breaks a time-honored code of conduct (abducting another man's wife while a guest in his house) it is because Aphrodite, the sex goddess, urges him on. Long before the abduction, Paris had judged Aphrodite to be the fairest of all goddesses. As his reward, Aphrodite sees to it that Paris gets his heart's desire which happens to be Helen, the most beautiful woman in the world. Menelaus must take action because it is a personal affront to him. The Acheans must support Menelaus because not to would risk societal meltdown. If Menelaus and the Achaeans are willing to go to war, the gods are there to help them (especially the goddesses that Paris ruled out as being the fairest). This I gleaned from Greek mythology.

    Likewise the stories of Achilles and Odysseus reveal what the Greeks valued as well as their point of departure. That is to say when is it acceptable to act from selfish motives as opposed to the dictates of society. The point I want to make is that the stories are appealing because they speak to us. Human behavior hasn't changed very much over the centuries. True we have reduced the gods and goddesses to one, but most of us at some time have a need to pray and appeal to a source higher than ourselves. Can we blame Paris for his behavior? We probably can but Paris in today's society would have no trouble getting a lawyer to help him present a good defense. Why are we still willing to go to war even though we must know by now that war is at best a "stop gap" measure, not a solution? We are willing to go to war because whenever our way of life seems to be threatened--that's what we do. Of course war is waged for all kinds of reasons as the study of our American wars show and so it was with the Greeks. Also, like the Greeks, our warriors demand recognition-hence the war memorials. The stories have value not because they have truth but because they help us see ourselves. Do we see ourselves as a warrior nation?

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 8, 2002 - 05:30 pm
    Except for the tales attributed to Homer, this reminds me of so many other civilizations we read about in Our Oriental Heritage. A civilization becomes highly developed like the one on Crete. Barbarians swoop down and grab and destroy nearly everything and put their stuff on its place. There is usually a restriction about "fraternization", as Robby said, but boys will be boys and girls will be girls, so it happens anyway. After a few hundred years a civilization develops which produces all kinds of art, architecture, scientific discoveries, etc., etc., and that hangs around until the barbarians appear again to tear it all down, and the process starts all over again.

    Are our buildings and artwork geometric? Are we a warrior nation? Sure. More now than we were a few years ago, and it scares me to death.

    Mal

    Justin
    November 8, 2002 - 05:57 pm
    Monas: I am not quite sure I know what it is you wish to disagree with in the rhetorical question about the sacrifice of Iphegenia. The question is," Why would Agamemnon sacrifice a favorite daughter to recover the wife of his brother? The quality of the sacrifice does not seem to be an issue here.

    Perhaps, you think women were not viewed as chattel by Achaean men? That is another issue. The role of women in tribal societies, as far back as the Sumerians, has been one of subservience. Women were sacrificed early in life through infanticide. They were treated as slaves to be bought and sold for the benefit of the family.

    The condition still exists. Islam, Judaism, Christianity, and I am sure, other religions place women in a minor role in life. I'd like to end all that but there aren't too many renaisance men around to help me. What is discouraging is the failure of so many women to recognize their plight much less do something about it.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 8, 2002 - 06:09 pm
    In the Heading above Durant says:--Civilization begins where chaos and insecurity ends."

    Mal says:--"After a few hundred years a civilization develops which produces all kinds of art, architecture, scientific discoveries, etc., etc., and that hangs around until the barbarians appear again to tear it all down, and the process starts all over again."

    Here we are in this forum wondering if we are solely moving toward being civilized. Are we saying that civilization has already arrived, then disappeared, then arrived, etc. etc.?

    Robby

    Justin
    November 8, 2002 - 06:23 pm
    I agree fully with Mary Page. Homer's tales are about male honor. The theft of Menelaus' wife by a guest was an unforgivable breach of moral conduct. A guest must not steal the host's property. It was not Helen but the affront to Menelaus' honor that caused the war. Menelaus in fact threatened to kill her as punishment. Had it not been for Viagra and it's urging, she would have been a dead woman.

    Odyseus seems to be more of a philandering family man. He returns to home and hearth, furnished with wife and son, after ten years of testing his powers.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 8, 2002 - 06:51 pm
    "Nor was Mycenaean culture entirely destroyed. Certain elements of the Aegean heritage -- instrumentalities of social order and government, elements of craftsmanship and technology, modes and routes of trade, forms and objects of worship, ceramic and toreutic skills, the art of fresco painting, decorative motives and architectural forms -- maintained a half-stifled existence through centuries of violence and chaos.

    "Cretan institutions, the Greeks believed, passed down into Sparta and the Achaean assembly remained the essential structure of even democratic Greece. The Mycenaean megaron probably provided the ground plan of the Doric temple, to which the Dorian spirit would add freedom, symmetry, and strength.

    "The artistic tradition, slowly reviving, lifted Corinth, Sicyon, and Argos to an early Renaissance, and made even dour Sparta, for a while, smile with art and song. It nourished lyric poetry through all this historyless Dark Age. It followed Pelasgian, Achaean, Ionian, Minyan exiles in their flight-migration to the Aegean and Asia, and helped the colonial cities to leap ahead of their mother states in literature and art. When the exiles came to the islands and Ionia they found the remains of Aegean civilization ready to their hands.

    "There, in old towns a little less disordered than on the Continent, the Age of Bronze had kept something of its ancient craft and brilliance. There on Asiatic soil would come the first reawakening of Greece."

    And so this newly developing civilization which seemed to be headed toward Europe had to return to Asia to renew its almost dying vigor.

    Robby

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    November 8, 2002 - 07:39 pm
    Showdog - I liked what you said, and mostly: "The stories have value not because they have truth but because they help us see ourselves."

    Bubble
    November 9, 2002 - 01:19 am
    What is discouraging is the failure of so many women to recognize their plight, much less do something about it.



    Justin, from what I see around here, some women do prefer the subaltern role and think of it as security. They see themselves of the pillar of the home life but don't want to be burdened with big decisions, bank balances, economic or political problems. Enough for them to decide what to prepare for the next meal. Maybe it is a question of education too? Some even go to a religious authority to ask if they should vaccinate their children.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 9, 2002 - 06:03 am
    "The civilization had begun to die, had grown coarse on the mainland through war and plunder, and effeminate in Crete through the luxury of its genius. The mixture of races and ways took centuries to win even a moderate stability, but it contributed to produce the unparalleled variety, flexibility, and subtlety of Greek thought and life.

    "Instead of thinking of Greek culture as a flame that shone suddenly and miraculously amid a dark sea of barbarism, we must conceive of it as the slow and turbid creation of a people almost too richly endowed in blood and memories, and surrounded, challenged, and instructed by warlike hordes, powerful empires, and ancient civilizations.

    A culture "sick" as a result of plunder and/or luxury. And now on its way to being "healed" through its being conquered by its barbaric enemies. Is that the way you see it?

    Robby

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    November 9, 2002 - 07:57 am
    Oneness of soul, as Françoise stated, between a man and his wife, means becoming one emotionally and physically, a couple living their daily life in accordance with one another. One partner feels has a part in the other’s thoughts, ambitions, career and decision making as if they were Siamese twins, each partner accepting and supporting the other’s different point of view in dealing with problems for the good of the relationship. Some people could call that abdication, others adaptation.

    Ulysses and Penelope could have had that oneness of soul. Whether having sex or not during the time they were apart did not break that oneness it seems.

    The reason why some women do not go on crusades showing the world how unfair their lot in life is could be that they are happy just being the better half. He gets all the glory and the money, while she gets to work around the house serving him, not getting much credit for that from a society who looks down upon such women because they are not seen as intellectual or stimulating enough, but in this kind of relationship she benefits from her husband’s success as she is a part of it and that is sufficient for these women.

    Will and Ariel Durant seem, in my estimation, to have had that oneness. I often look in vain for Ariel’s commentaries, but find only Will writing S of C while she is supporting him from behind the scene. She must have spent years researching, editing, rewriting and most likely doing all the housework besides, who knows. She did not parade in the public place demanding equality for women. Yet, I have a feeling that she was in total agreement with her husband’s work and for them to produce such a gigantic work together, they had to be in total oneness of soul.

    Eloïse

    Bubble
    November 9, 2002 - 08:09 am
    Eloise, I could wish she had left behind a personal diary of her days and thoughts.

    MaryPage
    November 9, 2002 - 09:18 am
    ARIEL DURANT

    MaryPage
    November 9, 2002 - 09:25 am
    "Education is the transmission of civilization."

    "It is good a philosopher should remind himself, now and then, that he is a particle pontificating on infinity."

    "One of the lessons of history is that nothing is often a good thing to do and always a clever thing to say."

    "Only a fool would try to compress a hundred centuries into a hundred pages of hazardous conclusions. We proceed."

    "The conservative who resists change is as valuable as the radical who proposes it."

    MaryPage
    November 9, 2002 - 09:29 am
    A great civilization is not conquered from without until it has destroyed itself from within.

    Ariel Durant

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 9, 2002 - 09:49 am
    Thanks, Mary Page. I was going to jump in and post about Ariel Durant. She was a strong feminist who worked hard for feminist causes and opened her husband's eyes to a lot of things. Though she took off and left Will Durant several times to do what she felt she must, they were extremely close as husband and wife, working partners and friends throughout their married life. I read that Ariel Durant actually starved herself to death after Will died. I guess life didn't seem worth living after he was gone.

    Mal

    MaryPage
    November 9, 2002 - 10:08 am
    Agreed, MAL. Ariel was a strong and active "women's libber", as we were called back then. She never, ever hid behind Will in any way; on the contrary, she fought against so doing.

    I just adored her comment on their life's work, said while they were doing it. I refer to: "Only a fool ...."

    Faithr
    November 9, 2002 - 10:09 am
    Thanks Mal for that link about "Puck" Durant. This couple seem to have had it all dont they. There had to be much give and take(compromise) in such strong characters. It is refreshing to read about his couple even if it is glossed up in retrospect. The site has interesting links too. Faith

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 9, 2002 - 10:31 am
    I think it's great that we are pausing to examine the authors of The Story of Civilization, with emphasis upon Ariel. Thank you, MaryPage, for giving us that wonderful link about her. I read it in detail and hope you are all doing the same. Her character and personality stand out in the piece written for the Durant Foundation.

    I get the impression from reading it that we don't need to "feel sorry" for her. She stood up for her own self. Please note that from the very start of this "Civilization" discussion group we have placed Ariel's name in the Heading.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 9, 2002 - 11:18 am
    On September 17th we opened this discussion on The Life of Greece at which time Durant told us:--"We shall begin with Crete and its lately resurrected civilization, because apparently from Crete, as well as from Asia, came that prehistoric culture of Mycenae and Tiryns which slowly transformed the immigrating Achaeans and the invading Dorians into civilized Greeks."

    This was Book I which Durant named the Aegean Prelude and which ran from 3500 to 1000 B.C. He emphasized the need for us to understand the various civilizations which preceded the Greece which many of us remember from our history classes. We now come to Book II which Durant calls

    The Rise of Greece

    and which runs from 1000 to 480 B.C. This is the "Greece" which many of us have been waiting for. This is the "Greece" which is more familiar to some of us and of which we want to learn more. Durant opens this book with

    Sparta

    Shall we settle back and prepare to move on?

    Robby

    monas
    November 9, 2002 - 11:29 am
    The feminite power of love has yet to be recognised. It can be used both by men and women and when it comes to full force, civilisation will see a new balance come into form.

    Ariel's words to Will: "... not only all the attractions of a husband and a lover, but the deep companionship that has developed between us so that we almost have one breath, one life, one interest." Da...living experience of the true communion of the soul.

    Françoise

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 9, 2002 - 11:37 am
    "Let us take an atlas of the classic world and find our way among the neighbors of ancient Greece. By Greece, or Hellas, we shall mean all lands occupied, in antiquity, by people speaking Greek.

    "In the valleys of Epirus the ancestors of the Greeks must have tarried many a year, for they set up at Dodona a shrine to their thundering sky-god Zeus. As late as the fifth century the Greeks consulted the oracle there, and read the divine will in the clangor of caldrons or the rustling leaves of the sacred oak. Through southern Epirus flowed the river Acheron, amid ravines so dark and deep that Greek poets spoke of it as the portal or very scene of Hell.

    "In Homer's day the Epirots were largely Greek in speech and ways. Then new waves of barbarism came down upon them from the north, and dissuaded them from civilzation."

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 9, 2002 - 12:49 pm
    Here is a MAP of Ancient Greece. Note Sparta at the bottom tip of Greece near Crete and note Epirus in the upper left corner of the map -- the area "where many invaders entered -- over the hills and through the valleys of Epirus."

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 9, 2002 - 12:58 pm
    Here is a MAP showing the location of Dodona where the ancestors of the Greeks set up a shrine. Note Dodona almost directly across from the boot of Italy. Scroll the map to the right and you will notice how Greece is most definitely a "bridge" between Europe and Asia Minor.

    Robby

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    November 9, 2002 - 02:59 pm
    "...and yet they came to rely on their interdependence for their very existence."

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 9, 2002 - 05:19 pm
    "Farther up the Adriatic lay Illyria, sparsely settled with untamed herdsmen who sold cattle and slaves for salt. On this coast, at Epidamnus (the Roman Dyrrachium, now Durazzo), Caesar disembarked his troops in pursuit of Pompey.

    "Across the Adriatic the expanding Greeks snatched the lower coasts from the native tribes, and gave civilization to Italy. (In the end those native tribes would sweep back upon them, and one tribe, almost barbarous until Alexander's time, would swallow them up, along with their motherland, in an unprecedented empire.)

    "Beyond the Alps ranged the Gauls, who were to prove very friendly to the Greek city of Massalia (Marseilles). At the western end of the Mediterranean lay Spain, already half civilized and fully exploited by the Phoenicians and Carthaginians when, about 550, the Greeks established their timid colony at Emporium (Ampurias).

    Italy -- Spain -- the Alps -- the Gauls -- Marseilles. The picture changes! Those expanding Greeks are taking us away from Asia Minor.

    Robby

    MaryPage
    November 10, 2002 - 10:22 am
    Page 67: the sacred oak Is this the sacred oak of the Druids? Did they bring it down to Greece? Or did it begin here? Or elsewhere? Why the oak? Because it does not lose its leaves in Winter? Because it is strong? I eat up these hints of an ancient genesis for later favor. Did our earliest ancestors prefer to sleep in oak trees before they began to make beds in caves? I am not getting any answers, but love thinking up the questions!

    Am intrigued by the phrase:
    dissuaded them from civilization.

    Illyria then, Yugoslavia for most of our lifetime. And the Durants are saying the Greeks gave civilization to Italy. Well, we already knew that, but I have heard the Greeks of today love to rub that into the Italians of today, and it is not well received!

    Page 68:
    When Hecatacus of Miletus boasted to the Egyptian priests that he could trace his ancestry through fifteen generations to a god, this would seem to support my earlier postulation that the gods were human beings who were awarded, either before or after death, but mostly after, the status of being worshipped as gods. It goes on to say they quietly showed him, in their sanctuaries, the statues of 345 high priests, each the son of the preceding, making 345 generations since the gods had reigned on earth. This would seem to support the same claim, only in Egypt! I am beginning to believe that early peoples, who could not imagine anything existing other than their little world, tended to create gods from among their own numbers rather than looking to heavens from which a god came and created everything.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 10, 2002 - 10:45 am
    Durant continues with the Environment of Greece:--

    "On the coast of Africa, menacingly opposite Sicily, was imperial Carthage, founded by Dido and the Phoenicians, tradition said, in 813. No mere village, but a city of 700,000 population, monopolizing the commerce of the western Mediterranean, dominating Utica, Hippo, and three hundred other towns in Africa, and controlling prosperous lands, mines, and colonies in Sicily, Sardinia, and Spain. This fabulously wealthy metropolis was fated to lead the Oriental thrust against Greece in the west, as Persia would lead it in the east.

    "Farther east on the African coast lay the prosperous Greek city of Cyrene, against a dark Libyan hinterland. Then Egypt. It was the belief of most Greeks that many elements of their civilization had come to them from Egypt. Their legends ascribed the foundation of several Greek cities to men who, like Cadmus and Danaus, had come from Egypt, or had brought Egyptian culture to Greece by way of Phoenicia or Crete.

    "Under the Saite kings (663-525) Egyptian commerce and art revived, and the ports of the Nile were for the first time opened to Greek trade. From the seventh century onward many famous Greeks -- Thales, Pythagoras, Solon, Plato, and Democritus may serve as examples -- visited Egypt, and were much impressed by the fullness and antiquity of its culture. Here were no barbarians, but men who had a mature civilization, and highly developed arts, two thousand years before the fall of Troy."

    As Durant moves us gradually away from Asia Minor, we see familiar African and European names. Any comments?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 10, 2002 - 10:50 am
    Find out more about CARTHAGE from this link.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 10, 2002 - 10:57 am
    This MAP shows the geographic relation of Carthage (now Tunis) to Sicily.

    Robby

    Bubble
    November 10, 2002 - 10:59 am
    Hannibal, son of Hamilcar Barca. This is what I learned from the latin texts and I checked in The Larousse encyclopedia too. This site on Carthage could be mixed up I suppose...



    I never really thought of the location of Carthage. What a way Hannibal walked with his army and elephants to reach the Alps!

    tooki
    November 10, 2002 - 11:58 am
    Durant gives a fast Grand Tour, but what I would like are some ecological facts. Why did these folks come through the hills and valleys? Did they bring cattle with them? Maybe I missed that. What did these folks grow and eat? What did they do for a living? What was the climite like. How do we find these things out if Durant isn't telling? As for "rubbing it in," the Chippawa kicked the Sioux out of Minnisota (a perhaps little known fact), and a Chippawa and a Sioux can get into it over that old fact. Bad blood lasts a long time, doesn't it?

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 10, 2002 - 01:25 pm
    "The enterprising merchants of Tyre and Sidon acted like a circulating medium in the transmission of culture, and stimulated every Mediterranean region with the sciences, techniques, arts, and cults of Egypt and the Near East. They excelled and perhaps instructed the Greeks in the building of ships. They taught them better methods in metalworking, textiles, and dyes. They played a part, with Crete and Asia Minor, in passing on to Greece the Semitic form of the alphabet that had been developed in Egypt, Crete, and Syria.

    "Farther east, Babylonia gave to the Greeks its system of weights and measures, its water clock and sundial, its monetary units of obol, mina, and talent -- its astronomical principles, instruments, records, and calculations -- its sexagesimal system of dividing the year -- the circle -- and the four right angles that are subtended by a circle at its center, into 360 parts, each of the 360 degrees into 60 minutes, and each of the minutes into seconds. It was presumably his acquaintance with Egyptian and Babylonian astronomy that enabled Thales to predict an eclipse of the sun. Probably from Babylonia came Hesiod's notion of Chaos as the origin of all things.

    "And the story of Ishtar and Tammuz is suspiciously like those of Aphrodite and Adonis, Demeter and Persephone."

    So it appears that we do not have two divided civilizations -- Oriental and Grecian.

    Robby

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    November 10, 2002 - 02:12 pm
    <HESIOD'S NOTION OF CHAOS AS THE ORIGIN OF ALL THINGS

    I am wondering whether civilization began when chaos ended or when humans realized that there was chaos.

    MaryPage
    November 10, 2002 - 02:20 pm
    Those words on Page 69: suspiciously like make me realize the Durants thought the stories that became religions were all derivative as well.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 10, 2002 - 02:30 pm
    "In some ways the civilization of Persia was superior to that of contemporary Hellas. It produced a type of gentleman finer than the Greek in every respect except that of intellectual keenness and education, and a system of imperial administration that easily excelled the clumsy hegemonies of Athens and Sparta, and lacked only the Greek passion for liberty.

    "From Assyria the Ionian Greeks took a measure of skill in animal statuary, a certain thickness of figure and flatness of drapery in their early sculpture, many decorative motives in friezes and moldings, and occasionally a style of relief, as in the lovely stela of Aristion.

    "Lydia maintained intimate relations with Ionia, and its brilliant capital, Sardis, was a clearinghouse for the traffic in goods and ideas between Mesopotamia and the Greek cities on the coast. The necessities of an extensive trade stimulated banking, and caused the Lydian government, about 680, to issue a state-guaranteed coinage. This boon to trade was soon imitated and improved by the Greeks, and had effects as momentous and interminable as those that came from the introducton of the alphabet."

    Apparently all the Greeks had was education and a "passion for liberty." The Persians excelled them in gentility.

    Robby

    MaryPage
    November 10, 2002 - 02:37 pm
    On page 70: a barbarian was a man content to believe without reason and to live without liberty. Whew! Our nation is full of barbarians!

    Then there is:
    mysticism would always return. The alternate victories of these complementary philosophies in the vast pendulum of history constitute the essential biography of Western civilization. I have often noticed this and thought of it much in the same way, especially the parallel with the way a pendulum works.

    North Star
    November 10, 2002 - 07:43 pm
    There was an interview on Canadian public radio today with Bernard Knox, a Greek historian from Washington. He was talking about the new translations of the Iliad and Odyssy and specifically about the ten-year war with Troy. The interview was appropriate because tomorrow is Remembrance Day.

    Bernard Knox said that virtues in the ancient Greek world were: being resourceful, having endurance, having the ability to resist temptation, being charismatic was helpful and being curious. The Greeks had a religion that had no ethical system so they had to work out as humans what was important to get along. An important aspect of life was gift giving although one expected some sort of favour in return. Hospitality was very important. Strangers were taken in and fed. Odysseus was taken in wherever he went. Because people had to work out a system of ethics themselves, the growth of philosophy was the result.

    Odysseus had the above qualities plus defending his honour. When he found his wife being wooed by all those suitors, his honour was challenged and while he was very subtle about revealing himself, he had to defend his honour.

    Bernard Knox felt that the Iliad and Odyssy had been written by one person because of the subtlety and sensitive handling of the women in the poems. Calypso is so human in her reaction when she wants to keep Odysseus for herself and offers him eternal life and youth. But he resists temptation. The only temptation he would have given in to was the Sirens who offered to let him talk about his adventures in battles which he really wanted to do. No one else offered him this opportunity.

    The ancient Greeks did learn Homer's poems in school and did believe they were historical although they would have questioned the Cyclops. Thucydides believed the poems were history and said the Troyan war took ten years because of the difficulty of delivering supplies.

    The ancient Greeks preferred the Iliad because it demonstrated the honour of war. Since men from age 18 - 60 were always on call if there was a war and there were many wars, they would relate to the Iliad as a source of inspiration.

    Bubble
    November 11, 2002 - 03:33 am
    I do not know what I may appear to the world; but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me. -Isaac Newton, philosopher and mathematician (1642-1727)

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 11, 2002 - 04:39 am
    Thank you, Star, for sharing that info about the virtues of the Ancient Greeks. It also helps us to realize the span of centuries when we realize that the Ancient Greeks saw Homer's poems as history!

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 11, 2002 - 04:45 am
    "From Thrace we move southward into Madedonia, and our cultural circumvallation of Greece is complete. It is a picturesque land, with a soil once rich in minerals, plains fertile in grain and fruit, and mountains disciplining a hardy stock that was destined to conquer Greece. The mountaineers and peasants were of mixed race, predominantly Illyrian and Thracian. Perhaps they were akin to the Dorians who conquered the Peloponnesus. The ruling aristocracy claimed Hellenic lineage (from Heracles himself), and spoke a dialect of Greek.

    "The earlier capital, Edessa, stood on a vast plateau between the plains that stretched to Epirus and the ranges that reached to the Aegean. Farther east lay Pella, capital-to-be of Philip and Alexander. Near the sea was Pydna, where the Romans would conquer the conquering Macedonians, and win the right to transmit Greek civilization to the Western world."

    I enjoy Durant also because of his use of words. Circumvallation?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 11, 2002 - 05:04 am
    As we examine the Environment of Greece and move briefly southward into Macedonia, let us pause to read A SHORT HISTORY OF MACEDONIA so that we don't confuse its history with that of Ancient Greece.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 11, 2002 - 05:13 am
    This MAP shows the relative positions of Thrace and Macedonia to Europe and Asia.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 11, 2002 - 05:20 am
    Here are some PHOTOS AND INFO about Edessa which Durant calls the earlier capital of Macedonia.

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 11, 2002 - 10:13 am
    DAILY LIFE IN ANCIENT GREECE

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 11, 2002 - 11:03 am
    It's Veterans Day, and I'd like to thank Marvelle, Robby and all the others in this discussion who have served their country in times of war and times of peace. There is a wonderful tribute to Colonel John MacCrae in Photos Then and Now with comments and photographs by Pat Scott, whom most of us know. John MacCrae wrote In Flanders Fields, a poem we've probably all recited at one time another. There are pictures of the MacCrae Museum and John MacCrae's birthplace in Guelph, Ontario, as well as a beautiful display of the poem.

    Tribute to Colonel John MacCrae on Veterans Day

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 11, 2002 - 05:42 pm
    Mal:--We're nowhere near 480 B.C. yet but your link gives us an idea of where we're heading.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 11, 2002 - 07:06 pm
    "This, then, was the environment of Greece -- civilizations like Egypt, Crete, and Mesopotamia that gave it those elements of technology, science, and art which it would transform into the brightest picture in history. Empires like Persia and Carthage that would feel the challenge of Greek commerce, and would unite in a war to crush Greece between them into a harmless vassalage. And, in the north, warlike hordes recklessly breeding, restlessly marching, who would sooner or later pour down over the mountain barriers and do what the Dorians had done -- break through what Cicero was to call the Greek border woven on the barbarian robe, and destroy a civilization that they could not understand.

    "Hardly any of these surrounding nations cared for what to the Greeks was the very essence of life -- liberty to be, to think, to speak, and to do. Every one of these people except the Phoenicians lived under despots, surrendered their souls to superstition, and had small experience of the stimulus of freedom or the life of reason. That was why the Greeks called them all, too indiscriminately, barbaroi, barbarians. A barbarian was a man content to believe without reason and to live without liberty.

    "In the end the two conceptions of life -- the mytsticism of the East and the rationalism of the West -- would fight for the body and soul of Greece. Rationalism would win under Pericles, as under Caesar, Leo X, and Frederick. But mysticism would always return.

    "The alternate victories of these complementary philosophies in the vast pendulum of history constitute the essential biography of Western civillzation."

    The underlining is mine. Why do I get the feeling that this is happening all over again? Am I letting my imagination stretch too far?

    Robby

    Justin
    November 11, 2002 - 08:00 pm
    Bfore leaving the Heroic Age, there are two thoughts I wish to address. Early on in this discussion of Greece and it's roots someone asked " Greece was a western culture, was it not?" I think now we can answer that question with some understanding of the elements involved. Greece was peopled by a new and diverse mix from Mediterranean, Alpine, Nordic, and Asiatic sources. This mix fused into what we will soon examine as early Greece. Ionia in Asia is Greek just as Sicily in Europe is Greek. Greece is a blend of east and west.The mysticism of the east and the rationalism of the west also blends here.

    As we move through Durant and the centuries following this Grecian period we will reference this period again and again. Greece is a root of great significance in western culture. It is a period of particular importance in the history of art, as well as in the history of political science.

    Justin
    November 11, 2002 - 11:16 pm
    There is a period ranging from the early twelfth century to roughly the seventh century that is often referred to as the dark ages of Greek history. The Durants refer to the period in the section covering the Dorian conquest as the Iron Age. It is a period when iron weapons made conquest possible. The inhabitants of the Peloponesus were given over to defense.Chaos reigned again and the "arts languished, painting was neglected, statuary contented itself with figurines; and pottery degenerated into a lifeless 'geometrical style'that dominated Greek ceramics for centuries." The Geometrical style in pottery was still evident when, in the seventh century Archaic forms appeared in Greek sculpture. If someone can locate the "Kouros Boy", we will all be able to see this early archaic form.

    The dark age of Greece is much the same as the dark age of Europe. While the continent was engaged in defense art closed down but not completely and so it was in Greece. The Temple of Hera rose in 1000 BCE. The ninth century is considered the period of Homer. In 725, coinage began in Ionia and in the seventh century things began to appear. Poets appeared on Lesbos. Thales lived in Ionia. Sculpture advanced with the contra-posto stance.In the sixth century, Aesops fables appear.Theodorus, an artist, appears at Samos. Thespis introduces drama at Athens and Pythagorus appears.

    All this is going on while the Greeks are engaged in chaotic defense. They are on the run while being pushed out of their traditional lands. It is not until the mid fifth century that classical Greece begins and the dark age of Greece come to an end. I think the Durants will introduce all of these things in the pages to follow and when they are ended we may not think the dark ages of Greece were so dark after all.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 12, 2002 - 04:14 am
    Very helpful material, Justin. And you say that "Sicily in Europe is Greek." Would you please expand on that? Are you referring to ancient times or current times?

    Robby

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    November 12, 2002 - 05:41 am
    Justin - Thank you for writing 'the Durants' reminding us of her contribution to S of C. Good post.

    I found the Kouros Boy you asked for with interesting statues painted virtually??. (personally I prefer unpainted) There you can also have a visit of the Louvres in Paris.

    KOUROS BOY

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 12, 2002 - 11:49 am
    KOUROS BOY front, side view, profile



    LINK TO ARCHAIC GREEK ART scroll down slowly

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 12, 2002 - 11:57 am
    Yes, Robby, it's happening all over again right now in our time. I wonder if there's ever been a time when it has not happened?

    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 12, 2002 - 12:02 pm
    TEMPLE OF HERA, remains of Doric peristyle

    Justin
    November 12, 2002 - 12:59 pm
    Robby; The Greeks colonized much of the land on both sides of the Adriatic ,the Ionian, and the Aegean Seas. They reached as far as Sicily and left many wonderful temples for us to treasure today. As we get closer to the fifth and sixth centuries I will talk about them. Pythagorus established a school in Italy on the Adriatic coast. Sicily today, as you probably know, is a self governing part of Italy.

    North Star
    November 12, 2002 - 01:34 pm
    #864: What is 'recklessly breeding'? Are we to assume that invaders from the north are guilty of reckless breeding but if they were 'civilized' it would be population growth. The Durant's bias is showing.

    Is history repeating itself. Are we to compare George Bush to some sort of Greek hero and the Evil Twins(Iraq and North Korea) as his personal enemies. Is it his destiny to avenge the honour of his father by attacking Iraq. Odysseus would probably attack Iraq and so will George. Resisting temptation only seemed to occur with both of them when it came to tempting women.

    In Canada where we seem to be able to get more balanced news, we are appalled at this unnecessary brinksmanship and are sad for the young lives about to be lost so oil interests can increase their profits. Anyway, that's how we see it. No we aren't pro Saddam but he hasn't attacked anyone and Iraq is a sovereign nation.

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 12, 2002 - 01:53 pm
    Weren't the invaders from the North considered barbarians by the more civilized Greeks? It's an interesting question you posed.

    Sharon, though I couldn't agree more with your comments about history repeating itself in Post #873, I believe it is the policy in this discussion not to talk about politicians by name. Robby will tell me if I'm correct about this or if I've overstepped bounds, I'm sure.

    Mal

    Justin
    November 12, 2002 - 02:00 pm
    Mal; The image of the temple of Hera at Olympia is a fine example of the early Doric temples. Thank you for finding it. You and Eloise have been wonderful finding images to support the discussion.

    The temple of Hera that Mal shows us probably dates from about 700 BCE. Before that time temples were merely altars in the open air with defined precincts. There is a temple to Hera at Samos, and at Argos as well as at Olympia. Hera is the wife of Zeus and Zeus was a guy who liked to play around so he is connected with several ladies in the Greek Pantheon. Hera is a deity of marriage and of the sexual life of women.

    Bubble
    November 12, 2002 - 02:12 pm
    Why is it that these gods are better known by there Latin or Roman names of Jupiter and Juno than the Greek names? Or maybe it is more so in Europe than in the States.

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    November 12, 2002 - 03:51 pm
    Sharon - Well said all around.

    MaryPage
    November 12, 2002 - 05:20 pm
    BUBBLE, I think it is because the Romans came so much later. Possibly we also feel more closely connected with them. Anyway, there was much more literature left from the Romans.

    ROBBY, I agree. History is repeating itself as we live and breathe. It has always been so. Same old, same old.

    moxiect
    November 12, 2002 - 05:24 pm


    Robb

    Below is link regarding ancient Sicily. http://www.sicilianculture.com/history/ancient.htm

    As Justin said the Greeks presences was there on the east side, along with Phoenician on the western side of sicily.

    And Justin thank you! Your knowledge helped me learn more about the country my grandparents immigrated from.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 12, 2002 - 05:59 pm
    I hadn't known about that Greek influence in Sicily. Most interesting!

    As we compare present cultures with ancient cultures, the temptation is often great to name current politicians but we try our best not to so as not to turn a historical forum into a political forum. I haven't been to any of the Senior Net political discussion groups recently but I'm willing to bet they are going hot and heavy right now.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 12, 2002 - 06:16 pm
    Durant continues with the next section (see GREEN quotes above):--

    "The gaunt hand that stretched the skeletal fingers of little Greece southward into the sea was but a small part of the Greece whose history concerns us. In the course of their development the irrepressible Hellenes spread into every isle of the Aegean -- into Crete -- Rhodes -- and Cyprus -- into Egypt -- Palestine -- Syria -- Mesopotamia -- and Asia Minor -- into the Sea of Marmora and the Black Sea -- into the shores and peninsulas of the north Aegean -- into Italy -- Gaul -- Spain -- Sicily -- and northern Africa.

    "In all these regions they built city-states, independent and diverse, and yet Greek. They spoke the Greek tongue, worshiped Greek gods, read and wrote Greek literature, contributed to Greek science and philosophy, and practiced democracy in the Greek aristocratic way. They did not leave Greece behind them when they migrated from their motherland. They carried it with them, even the very soil of it, wherever they went.

    "For nearly a thousand years they made the Mediterranean a Greek lake, and the center of the world."

    Please re-read that first sentence. Now that's expansion!! And in just one paragraph we are reading about one thousand years!

    Robby

    Justin
    November 12, 2002 - 06:55 pm
    The Green quotes deal with the formation of Magna Graecia and the Durants deal in this opening chapter with the environment of what is to become Greece ( Hellas). It seems to me we are ahead of our selves, are we not, Robby. The Durants are telling us where things come from and the green quotes seem to be asking us to deal with the expansion of Hellas into the vastness of Asia and Europe. I want to follow your lead butnot get beyond the Durants.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 12, 2002 - 07:00 pm
    Justin:--I believe that Durant is giving us an overview so that later we can better understand the details as we get into them. We are moving gradually onto Sparta.

    Robby

    Justin
    November 13, 2002 - 12:04 am
    Robby: It looks to me as though the Durants are starting off just as you say. They seem to be opening with the expansion. That's interesting. It appears that colonization and trade were the means of transference. Oh well, read and learn.

    "Carthage led the Oriental thrust against Greece in the west and Persia led the thrust in the east." Greek colonization in the west reached as far as Cyrene, well beyond Sicily and very near Carthage. Cyrene must have been a serious trading competitor for Carthage.

    Egyptian culture came to Greece either directly by trade or indirectly through Phoenician trade. Famous Greeks such as Thales, Pythagorus, Solon, Plato and Democritus visited Egypt The Durants say that Thales learned geometry in Egypt and that Rhoecus and Theodorus learned the art of hollow casting in bronze. The fluted column and the Doric style in architecture were inspired in part by Egyptian architecture. Much later , when Greece was in the death throes, it "merged it's gods and it's rites with those of Egypt and Judea in order that they might find a resurected life in Rome and Christianity."

    Phoenician merchants were very active in the transference of Mediterranean culture and stimulated every region with the sciences , techniques , arts and cults of Egypt and the Near East. They passed on to Greece the semitic form of the alphabet.

    Phrygia gave the Greeks, Cybele,the mother goddess. This gal moved around the ancient world. We will see her again in Rome and later in Christianity.

    The above are the civilizations that contributed their assets to make Greece strong and which in turn combined to crush Greece as a competitor.

    Bubble
    November 13, 2002 - 01:51 am
    That Sicily historical resume was very interesting, lots I never heard of.



    We have all learned bits and pieces of the Greek great past. This discussion is putting it all together and in perspective, at last.



    The Greeks would never have been able to have an influence on this extended area, was it not for their wisdom to let them remain self governing. Bubble

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 13, 2002 - 04:21 am
    "We shall attempt to weave into one pattern and story these scattered members of the body of Greece by the pleasant method of a tour. With a map at our elbow and no expenditure but of the imagination, we shall pass from city to city of the Greek world, and observe in each center the life of the people before the Persian war -- the modes of economy and government, the activities of scientists and philosophers, the achievements of poetry, and the creations of art.

    "The plan has many faults. The geographical sequence will not quite agree with the historical. We shall be leaping from century to century as well as from isle to isle. We shall find ourselves talking with Thales and Anaximander before listening to Homer and Hesiod. But it will do us no harm to see the irreverent Iliad against its actual background of Ionian skepticism, or to hear Hesiod's dour plaints after visiting the Aeolian colonies from which his harassed father came.

    "When at last we reach Athens we shall know in some measure the rich variety of the civilization that it inherited, and which it preserved so bravely at Marathon.

    Durant anticipates our possible confusion as we try to place some order in our minds as we examine this civilization. Yes, as he says, we will temporarily jump from century to century but, in the end, we will arrive at Athens. He asks us to stick with his method. We learned so much from his methods in Our Oriental Heritage and I feel confident that as we follow along in this second volume, we will begin to get the entire picture and piece the little ones together "in a pattern."

    As for having "a map at our elbow," Durant back in the early part of the 20th Century had no idea that this wonderful tool of the Internet would be at our elbow. Let us, as he suggests, "pass from city to city" and, with the help of Links, form in our minds the entire background of the Greek civilization.

    Robby

    MaryPage
    November 13, 2002 - 08:21 am
    This week The History Channel showed a brand new 2 hour documentary about Cleopatra. Did not mention it here previously because it is about a period way in our future study, BUT, thought I would here interject that she and her entire family of rulers of Egypt were 100% Greek! The documentary emphasized that the Ptolemies really had to jump through hoops, as it were, to keep the Egyptian people worshipping them, because they were of a different race from the people they ruled!

    MaryPage
    November 13, 2002 - 09:34 am
    Just came back from a visit across the hall to my 90 & 98 year-old neighbors to tell them I have just been hired on at a pilot-training corporation. I'll be working 2 days per week, 6 hours per day. The 98 year old gave me a wonderful present: The Greek Treasure by Irving Stone. It is a biographical novel about Henry & Sophia Schliemann, published in 1975. I am over the moon about both the job (I start next Tuesday morning at nine sharp) and the book!

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 13, 2002 - 09:46 am
    Congratulations, Mary Page. Good for you!

    Mal

    North Star
    November 13, 2002 - 02:55 pm
    Guilty as charged. I did mention two politicans by name. I'm afraid that I'm not able to resist temptation and making a case that today's events sort of parallel ancient history was more than I could resist. We're mighty nervous up here.

    Nice going, MaryPage.

    We don't give ancient people's enough credit for brains, imagination and bravado. Merchants traveled farther from home than we can believe their frail ships could take them. Traders and caravans traveled further than we believe they could have gone. Engineers built marvelous buildings, bridges, aquaducts and pyramids. They had to figure out how much weight columns would bear, they had to carve out and move large pieces of stone. They had to coordinate large groups of workers to work, to eat, to live in work camps.

    They figured out numerical systems, alphabets, commerce, weights and measures, civil law, medical information. They wrote plays, poems, philosophy, songs. Even 'barbarians' mined and melted ores to make utensils and war impliments. They created the basis for our civilization today.

    Justin
    November 13, 2002 - 03:00 pm
    Mary Page rides again. How wonderful. Congratulations.

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 13, 2002 - 03:32 pm
    You're not alone, Sharon.

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 13, 2002 - 03:34 pm
    THE NAME ARGOS WITH MAP



    ARGOS THEATER



    ANCIENT THEATER OF ARGOS



    PELOPONESE

    tooki
    November 13, 2002 - 04:05 pm
    or the Durants were presenting their material in too complex a manner for me. I rummaged around and really did find my old historical atlas. I found that flipping back and forth among the maps of the world in 1500, ancient empires, etc., allowed me to see what was happening in Greece in the context of what was happening around them at the same time. Internet maps just don't give that old time feeling of going back and forth and finding connections that browsing a book of maps does. Too bad I didn't find it so interesting years ago; my grades would have improved. Back then, I could care less about ancient Greece. The Durants are now teasing us with "Marathon."

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 13, 2002 - 04:17 pm
    ARGOLID VALLEY WITH MAP AND MANY LINKS TO PICTURES

    Tejas
    November 13, 2002 - 09:34 pm
    It has been some time singe I checked in here.

    There were two comments right after my last post, about "normal", and about "mendacity". I have been reading an excellent book, "Against the Gods", a history of statistics. Of course, it reviews all the business about the origins of their culture in Greece.

    Early in the 19th century a French statistician statistician named Quetelet came up with the idea of the normal as a social concept. That was the orignal basis of the idea that the normal American has a wife and 2.3 children. By 1900, every doctor in Europe, and thus the world, was quite firmly convinced that any departure form "normal", in either direction, was sick, sick, sick. Above all that seemed to apply to IQ. Good thing that Einstein spent years in the patent office in Bern out of the public view, or the doctors would have locked him up as obviously abnormal. Of course, the recent best-seller, "The Bell Curve", started the same sorry business all over again.

    In Plato's Republic, required reading for any student of Western Civilization, there is a paragraph or two about lies. In his view, citizens may not lie, but the Republic must. He said that lies are like drugs, and only an expert can prescribe them.

    Justin
    November 13, 2002 - 10:15 pm
    The Classical Lands Map from a 1949 issue of National Geographic is excellent. It shows the range of colonization by Greeks and their neighbors. It may be available on the internet? Who knows? Everything else seems to be available.

    Justin
    November 13, 2002 - 10:36 pm
    Argos is of some interest to the Art Historian. It is the home of Polyclitus. This gentlemen gave us a concept of male beauty related to mathematical proportion. " Male beauty consists not in the elements but in the symmetry of the parts." The "Spear Carrier" is one his works. Copies of his "Diadumenus" and "Doryphorus" are around. I'll bet they are on the internet.

    Justin
    November 13, 2002 - 11:21 pm
    Mal: There is a Roman copy of the "Doryphoros" by Polykleitos in Naples at the National Museum.

    Justin
    November 13, 2002 - 11:59 pm
    The royal Argive line included Danaus, a decendant of Io and Zeus. Aegyptus and Danaus quarelled. Aegyptus wanted his sons to marry Danaus' daughters. There were four of each. Danaus was opposed so he fled to Argos. Aegyptus' sons followed and Danaus agreed to the marriages but requested his daughters to kill their husbands on the wedding night. Three of them did so. They burried the heads in town and their bodies outside the walls. Then Danaus offered his girls as prizes in a foot race. Plato says they were punished in Hades by being assigned to fill a leaky jar with water. These gals are not typical of Dorian women who were pretty independent.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 14, 2002 - 07:23 am
    Some great comments here! A good discussion leader (in my opinion) knows when to become inconspicuous and let the discussion flow -- especially with the terrific forum members we have here! But now Durant continues:--

    "At Argos we find a not too fertile plain, a small and huddled city of little brick-and-plaster houses, a temple on the acropolis, an open-air theater on the slope of the hill, a modest palace here and there, narrow alleys and unpaved streets, and in the distance the inviting and merciless sea.

    "For Hellas is composed of mountains and ocean. Majestic scenery is so usual there that the Greeks, though moved and inspired by it, seldom mention it in their books. The winter is wet and cold, the summer hot and dry. Sowing is in our autumn, reaping is in our spring. Rain is a heavenly blessing, and Zeus, the Rain Maker, is god of gods. The rivers are short and shallow,, torrents for a winter spell, dry smooth pebbles in the summer heat.

    "There were a hundred cities like Argos in the gamut of Greece, a thousand like it but smaller. Each of them jealously sovereign, separated from the rest by Greek pugnacity, or dangerous waters, or roadless hills."

    Any comments about this scene?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 14, 2002 - 07:51 am
    Durant has been pointing out the great diversity of what we call the "Greek civilization." This LINK leads us to an article in today's New York Times about the great diversity in Iraq. The goal of my posting this link is not to bring international politics into this discussion but to remind those of us who participated in Our Oriental Heritage of the great diversity we found in the Oriental cultures. This article might bring back some memories.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 14, 2002 - 10:13 am
    ROMAN COPY OF DORYPHORUS BY POLYKLEITOS. Click right arrow link bottom of page for more.

    MaryPage
    November 14, 2002 - 10:52 am
    We also have great diversity today in this country, and now anthropologists are finding there were not one, but several distinct biological groupings here before Columbus "discovered" America! Apparently mankind always roamed and took over and assimilated, but torrents of this occurred after we learned to ride the horse over mountains and rafts over the waves.

    I have that map, and others, of Ancient Greece in a set of discs from National Geographic which my son gave me. They comprise all of the maps NG has done from the very beginning, and are inexpensive and easy to use on the computer. I do not think you can get them for free, however.

    tooki
    November 14, 2002 - 10:55 am
    Good grief! How did these people make a living, or was being sovereign belly filling enought? I read somewhere that the Greeks denuded their land of timber early on. Is that why they built with marble? With a land that meager it's a good thing the scenery was majestic. I hope the Durants give more ecological information somewhere. Perhaps I am too plebian to appreciate what I am being offered.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 14, 2002 - 11:06 am
    Tooki:--You bring up some good points regarding how they "made a living." But be patient with Durant. Those of us who have been in The Story of Civilization for a few months have found that he and Ariel give us plenty to work on.

    Robby

    tooki
    November 14, 2002 - 11:49 am
    I'll be patient. Meanwhile, here in Inpatientville, it occured to me that the reason the Greeks colonized the whole Med. and Aegean basin is because their own lands were quite barren. Or maybe became barren because of the multitudes of barbarians trooping around. Looking at the maps of the Greek land and colonies it seems that they went out to sea when the home pickings got slim. A good idea, on the whole. They didn't want to go north and bump into those awful barbarians (breeding recklessly) who kept coming and coming and coming. So, now I'm content to wait for the Durant's explanations. But they better be good. Now I'm all excited again and must go put my head down.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 14, 2002 - 11:51 am
    Tooki:--I love your sense of humor! That's what helps to make this discussion group the success it is.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 14, 2002 - 12:00 pm
    "The Argives ascribed the foundation of their city to Pelasgic Argus, the hero with a hundred eyes, and its first flourishing to an Egyptian, Danaus, who came at the head of a band of 'Danaae' and taught the natives to irrigate their fields with wells. Such eponyms are not be scorned. The Greeks preferred to end with myth that infinite regress which we must end with mystery.

    "Under Temenus, one of the returning Heracleidae, Argos grew into the most powerful city of Greece, bringing Tiryns, Mycenae, and all Argolis under its sway. Towards 680 the government was seized by one of those tyrannoi, or dictators, who for the next two centuries became the fashion in the larger cities of Greece.

    "Presumably Pheidon, like his fellow dictators, led the rising merchant class -- allied in a passing marriage of convenience with the commoners -- against a land-owning aristocracy. When Aegina was threatened by Epidaurus and Athens, Pheidon went to its rescue and took it for himself.

    "He adopted -- probably from the Phoenicians -- the Babylonian system of weights and measures, and the Lydian plan of a currency guaranteed by the state. He established his mint on Aegina, and the Aeginetan 'tortoises' (coins marked with the island's symbol) became the first official coinage in continental Greece."

    More power struggles. In the meantime civilization gains?

    Robby

    Justin
    November 14, 2002 - 02:07 pm
    Mal: Those were excellent finds for Polykleitos' works and the comments were exceptionally useful. Museum labels are not always so clear and definitive.

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 14, 2002 - 02:48 pm
    Thank you, Justin. I was surprised that they were so easy to find.

    Mal

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 14, 2002 - 06:41 pm
    "Pheidon's enlightened despotism opened a period of prosperity that brought many arts to Argolis. In the sixth century the musicians of Argos were the most famous in Hellas. Lasus of Hermione won high place among the lyric poets of his time, and taught his skill to Pindar. The foundations were laid of that Argive school of sculpture which was to give Polycleitus and its canon to Greece.

    "Drama found a home here, in a theater with twenty thousand seats. Architects raised a majestic temple to Hera, beloved and especially worshiped by Argos as the goddess-bride who renewed her virginity every year. But the degeneration of Pheidon's descendants -- the nemesis of monarchy -- and a long series of wars with Sparta weakened Argos, and forced it at last to yield to the Lacedaemonians the leadership of the Peloponnesus.

    "Today it is a quiet town, lost amid its surrounding fields. Remembering vaguely the glories of its past, and proud that in all its long history it has never been abandoned."

    "And this, too, shall pass away."

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 14, 2002 - 06:57 pm
    LACONIA

    "South of Argos, and away from the sea, rise the peaks of the Parnon range. They are beautiful, but still more pleasing to the eye is the Eurotas River that runs between them and the taller, darker, snow-tipped range of Taygetus on the west.

    "In that seismic valley lay Homer's 'hollow Lacedaemon,' a plain so guarded by mountains that Sparta, its capital, needed no walls. At its zenith Sparta ('The Scattered') was a union of five villages, totaling some seventy thousand population.

    "Today it is a hamlet of four thousand souls; and hardly anything remans, even in the modest museum, of the city that once ruled and ruined Greece."

    And so the GREEN quotes start us off on a voyage toward a culture that we touched upon briefly in our school history classes. What will Durant have to tell us?

    Robby

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    November 15, 2002 - 02:54 am
    Stroll through the ancient monuments and archeological museums located in this area, once know as Mystras.

    LACONIA

    Eloïse

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 15, 2002 - 04:39 am
    A great link, Eloise! An easily understood map and lots and lots of further info to link to.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 15, 2002 - 04:50 am
    "To the Dorians, the long-haired northerners, hardened by mountains and habituated to war, there seem no alternative in life but conquest or slavery. War was their business, by which they made what seemed to them an honest living. The non-Dorian natives, weakened by agriculture and peace, were in obvious need of masters.

    "So the kings of Sparta, who claimed a continuous lineage from the Heracleidae of 1104, first subjected the indigenous population of Laconia, and then attacked Messenia. That land, in the southwestern corner of the Peloponnesus, was relatively level and fertile, and was tilled by pacific tribes.

    "We may read in Pausanias how the Messerian king, Aristodemus, consulted the oracle at Delphi for ways to defeat the Spartans, how Apollo bade him offer in sacrifice to the gods a virgin of hs own royal race -- how he put to death his own daughter, and lost the war. (Perhaps he had been mistaken about his daughter.)

    "Two generations later the brave Aristomenes led the Messenians in heroic revolt. For nine years their cities bore up under attack and siege, but in the end the Spartans had their way. The Messenians were subjected to an annual tax of half their crops, and thousands of them were led away to join the Helot serfs."

    Agriculture and peace leads to weakness? Again might wins out over right?

    Robby

    monas
    November 15, 2002 - 07:08 am
    Thank you Malryn for your link. It is almost as seeing them in person. It reminded me of a visit to Florence and the feeling I had when I was standing in front of a copy of the statue of David by Michaelangelo. A breath taking experience. It is since my childhood I have dreamed of seeing the Greek architecture and art.

    Robby, I often smile at your questions and like to respond to this last one. Gengis Khan conquered half the world by settling and sowing the land he conquered. Alexander the Great did the same. It is the basis of a strong society. I am sure others will find even better arguments.

    Françoise

    tooki
    November 15, 2002 - 10:15 am
    Good site, but since our fearless leader takes a dim view of being out of sequence, we should revisit it in a few hundred years or so, at which time I would like to discuss "contrapposto" and India's contribution to that sculptural concept.

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 15, 2002 - 10:45 am
    Tooki, we had an in-depth discussion of many facets of India's civilization here, including its ancient art and architecture, when we discussed the first volume of The Story of Civilization, Our Oriental Heritage.

    Mal

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    November 15, 2002 - 11:33 am
    -Tooki, you mean this? CONTRAPPOSTO

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 15, 2002 - 12:45 pm
    Aren't links wonderful? Almost like being there in person.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 15, 2002 - 12:51 pm
    "Laconian society had three levels. Above is a master class of Dorians, living for the most part in Sparta on the produce of fields owned by them in the country and tilled for them by Helots.

    "Socially between, geographically surrounding, the masters and Helots were the Perioeci ('Dwellers Around') -- freemen living in a hundred villages in the mountains or on the outskirts of Laconia, or engaged in trade or industry in the towns -- subject to taxation and military service, but having no share in the government, and no right of intermarriage with the ruling class.

    "Lowest and most numerous of all were the Helots, so named, according to Strabo, from the town of Helus, whose people had been among the first to be enslaved by the Spartans.

    "By simple conquest of the non-Dorian population or by importing prisoners of war, Sparta had made Laconia a land of some 224,000 Helots, 120,000 Perioeci, and 32,000 men, women, and children of the citizen class."

    Anyone see any difference from the class distinctions in existence today?

    Robby

    Faithr
    November 15, 2002 - 01:14 pm
    We still have economic class distinction in this country and we often talk about working class, blue coller class, landowners, business owners, white coller class, etc. and we sometimes talk about the homeless and or the politicians as if they were a class now too. The biggest distinction I see is that Citizen class was reserved for landowners of the ruling class. This is still true some places regarding who can vote and was true in this country not to long ago.

    This discussion is approaching the time I find most interesting in Greek History. I am enjoying all the links. faithr

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 15, 2002 - 01:58 pm
    I am acutely aware that the majority of the participants (and lurkers) here are awaiting the "time they find most interesting" but I can see why Durant wanted us to know about Crete and the other civiliations that preceded the "most interesting time." I'm sure it will stand us in good stead later.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 15, 2002 - 04:47 pm
    Bubble:--As we sit here as a group discussing the warlike actions of the Ancient Dorians, our thoughts simultaneously go out to you, knowing that the most recent Sabbath massacre was not that far from you. We hope that you are being cautious in your daily activities.

    Robby

    tooki
    November 15, 2002 - 04:58 pm
    And, Mal, you mean I have to go back there all by myself, wandering around India's sculpture, looking for contrapposto examples to bring back to the discussion? Well, so much for that idea.

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 15, 2002 - 05:08 pm
    Do what pleases you, Tooki.

    Robby, Bubble has not yet posted in WREX about her safety and that of her family. When she does, I'll post her message here.

    Mal

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 15, 2002 - 05:10 pm
    Tooki:--None of the valuable words spoken by this wonderful group is ever lost!! Click onto this LINK and it will take you back to our discussion about India.

    Robby

    Justin
    November 15, 2002 - 06:30 pm
    Tooki: AKA Polykleitus and Polycletus. His active dates are about 450 BCE. Ordinarily, we would not discuss him until later, however the Durants brought up Argos, P's home town, and widened the date range so Polykleitus was fair game.

    Justin
    November 15, 2002 - 06:46 pm
    Tooki: It is possible to detect in some Indian figures another variation of contrapposto. Whether it was independently developed or was descended from the Greeks is a matter of controversy.

    Justin
    November 15, 2002 - 07:10 pm
    Eloise: You did it again. Thanks for the fine examples of Contrapposto. Donatello did some nice things to our old friend David which I admire greatly. The asymetrical balancing tensions are as apparent in the Donatello as in the Michelangelo. Verrochio also made some nice contributions in the area and when Bernini put clothes on these guys he pushed the envelope a little more.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 15, 2002 - 09:06 pm
    "The simple paying tribute to the clever is a custom with a venerable past and a promising future. In most civilizations this distribution of the goods of life is brought about by the normally peaceful operation of the price system:--the clever persuade us to pay more for the less readily duplicable luxuries and services that they offer us than the simple can manage to secure for the more easily replaceable necessaries that they produce.

    "But in Laconia the concentration of wealth was effected by irritatingly visible means, and left among the Helots a volcanic discontent that in almost every year of Spartan history threatened to upset the state with revolution."

    Robby

    Justin
    November 15, 2002 - 10:38 pm
    In Laconia the slave to citizen ratio was 10 to 1. and the ratio of slave to fighting man was in the neighborhood of 30 to 1. It has always been surprising to me how a slave population this size could be maintained for very long. Where were the Spartacuses? I wonder what the ratio was in the U.S. in 1860. Any body know what it was in South Africa?

    Justin
    November 15, 2002 - 10:48 pm
    In Sparta, the Doric mode of music was preferred. All other mode were discouraged. Even Terpander, the great poet-musician was forced to remove strings from his lyre because they did not conform to the preferred style. He was fined for adding strings and his lyre nailed to the wall. That's pretty rough.

    We have a similar problem today. Think about the objections to rap and to heavy metal and remember the objections to jitterbugging, and to the Charleston, and to the Shimmy. I don't remember anyone being fined for playing heavy metal ( I hesitate to say music) though I would much prefer it were not done.

    Terpander's lyrics about standing shoulder to shoulder against the enemy must have influenced the brave lads at Marathon many years later. It has the ring of "Onward Christian Soldiers" doesn't it? Can you not hear Nelson Eddy in Terpander's lyrics?

    Bubble
    November 16, 2002 - 02:33 am
    Robby, I am sorry I did not give word that all is well on my little corner of this mad world. You are all such good supportive friends on SN, I am deeply moved. Thank you!

    Bubble

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 16, 2002 - 04:50 am
    "Music above all was popular in Sparta and rivaled man's antiquity. As far back as we can delve we find the Greeks singing. In Sparta, so frequently at war, music took a martial turn -- the strong and simple 'Doric mode,' and not only were other styles discouraged, but any deviation from this Doric style was punishable by law. Terpander had dared to add another string to his instrument. In a later generation Timotheus, who had expanded Terpander's seven strings to eleven, was not allowed to compete at Sparta until the ephors had removed from his lyre the scandalously extra strings.

    "Towards 670, supposedly at the behest of the Delphic oracle, Terpander was brought in from Lesbos to prepare a contest in choral singing at the fetival of the Carneia. Likewise Thaletas was summoned from Crete about 620. Soon after came Tyrtaeus, Aleman, and Polymnestus. Their labor went mostly to composing patriotic music and training choruses to sing it.

    "Music was seldom taught to individual Spartans. As in revolutionary Russia,the communal spirit was so strong that music took a corporate form, and group competed with group in magnificent festivals of song and dance. Such choral singing gave the Spartans another opportunity for discipline and mass formations, for every voice was subject to the leader. At the feast of the Hyacinthia King Agesilaus sang obediently in the place and time assigned to him by the choral master. At the festival of the Gymnopedia the whole body of Spartans, of every age and sex, joined in massive exercises of harmonious dance and antistrophal song.

    "Such occasions must have provided a powerful stimulus and outlet to the patriotic sentiment."

    When I was a young man, I played the trumpet. Shortly after my enlistment in the Army, the authorities learned about this and sent me home to get my trumpet. Upon my return to Ft. Dix, I was assigned to the band which, in place of Reveille, marched back and forth before the barracks waking the recruits to stirring marches. I did this for two weeks before moving on to Ft. Meade where they quickly used the knowledge that I played this instrument into having me become the company bugler. I suppose that Reveille, To The Colors, and Taps can be considerd a form of martial music. And just as in Sparta, I was not allowed to stand out on the parade ground and play "In the Mood." They might have nailed my trumpet to a tree.

    As for singing, we did that, too, while marching but again the songs did not include the "Toreador Song from Carman" but included the ditties our officers approved, many of them irreverant.

    Robby

    Bubble
    November 16, 2002 - 05:14 am
    As in revolutionary Russia,the communal spirit was so strong that music took a corporate form, and group competed with group in magnificent festivals of song and dance.



    This reminds me so much of the spirit when I first arrived in Israel in early '60s and was even more so in the '50s. No TV, evenings were spent in public communal singing and hora circle dancing. The picking of crops and oranges of course was with sing along.



    Every one knew the tunes if not all the words and it was not done not to join in. Songs about nature, bravoure and past battles were taught in the Ulpan, the school all immigrants attended to learn Hebrew. Hava Naguila is such, as well as Eveinu Shalom Aleichem (We brought you Peace or welcome) which sounds so ironic these days.



    In Africa, I remember the clearing of new roads was active with these songs improvised on the spot. When many joined to help remove a particularly heavy boulder It was to commands sung by all:
    "su-kuuuuu-ma, mama" with elongation of the second syllab. Then they would make up a march like song on that prowess, each one adding a line in turn!


    Bubble

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    November 16, 2002 - 05:49 am
    I learned to jitterbug to 'In the Mood'. It is a good tune to dance to. We used to sing Toreador and La Marseillaise in the car on the road to the cottage to keep the kids from being car sick.

    Bubble, I am so glad that you are safe, but the fighting is too near you for comfort. Be careful my friend. So interesting to learn about life in the 40's and 50's in Israel, Hava Naguila we used to sing around the campfires, thanks for sharing.

    Eloïse

    Bubble
    November 16, 2002 - 06:03 am
    No Israel in the 40's Eloise: Israel was only founded in 1948. From what I heard the first two years were devoted mainly in founding Kibbutzim to start agriculture and trying to fight malaria.



    I forgot to mention in my previous post that for me the most inspiring songs were those written after the Six Day War. Jerusalem of Gold is one, Sharm-El-Sheikh is another. We have a very moving song about a medic dying to save his wounded friend. An ironic one was "Nasser is waiting for Rabin". I don't think they were heard outside Israel's frontiers, except for Jerusalem of Gold.
    Bubble

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 16, 2002 - 06:28 am
    Turn up your speaker, click onto this link of MARTIAL MUSIC and hear brief samples of music of U.S. Army, Navy, Marines, and Air Force. Click onto the words "Listen Now" under U.S. Army and tell me that your foot is not tapping!!

    Robby

    moxiect
    November 16, 2002 - 07:07 am


    Thanks Rob for the music link. History certainly is very interesting. Civilizations history can be told thru the Sound of its Music. Just popped in to let you know I am still here and learning a great deal.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 16, 2002 - 07:11 am
    Hi, Moxi! Glad you "popped in." Please tell your other friends in Senior Net that "history is interesting" and invite them here.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 16, 2002 - 07:19 am
    "Tradition ascribed to Terpander the invention of scolia or drinking songs, and the expansion of the lyre from four to seven strings. But the heptachord, as we have seen, was as old as Minos, and presumably men had sung the glories of wine in the forgotten adolescence of the world.

    "Certainly he made a name for himself at Lesbos as a kitharoedos -- i.e. a composer and singer of musical lyrics. Having killed a man in a brawl, he was exiled, and found it convenient to accept an invitation from Sparta. There, it seems, he lived the remainder of his days, teaching music and training choruses.

    "We are told that he ended his life at a drinking party. While he was singing -- perhaps that extra note which he had added at the top of the scale -- one of his auditors threw a fig at him, which, entering his mouth and his windpipe, choked him to death in the very ecstasy of song."

    And so stopping at the nearest "watering hole" and belting out a song is apparently not a modern diversion!!

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 16, 2002 - 10:17 am
    These quotes come from www.engr.mun.ca/~whitt/bass/mode_origins.html.

    From Aristotle's Politics:--
    "The musical modes differ essentially from one another, and those who hear them are differently affected by each. Some of them make men sad and grave, like the so called Mixolydian; others enfeeble the mind, like the relaxed modes; another, again, produces a moderate or settled temper, which appears to be the peculiar effect of the Dorian; and the Phrygian inspires enthusiasim."
    "Both Plato and Aristotle insisted that the modes to which a person listened molded the person's character ... even made the person more or less fit for certain jobs. They termed it the 'ethos of music.'... So concepts like 'rock 'n roll can rot your mind' are not really so new after all.

    "The mode names match geographic or ethnic regions. One problem is that, whereas many writings specify how the ancient Greeks *thought* about scales, and even 'constructed' parts of their scales, nothing exists about which modes were called Mixolydian, Dorian, Phrygian, etc. My reading on this is dated, but as of about 1985, not one Greek mode had been completely deciphered, let alone associated with a particular name."

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    November 16, 2002 - 11:23 am
    Mal, this link here takes us to some Greek modes in music for example: 'Dorian mode? - Yankee doodle, Man on the Flying Trapeze, God save the King. Lorian Mode? - Danny Boy, Aolian Mode? Jingle Bell Rock, Harry Potter theme.

    Justin, Terpander is sometimes credited with inventing the "Yankee Doodle" tuning,

    So many things to learn here, I won't have enough of the rest of my life, this could go on and on.

    Eloïse

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 16, 2002 - 11:30 am
    Eloise, no one yet knows what tones were in the Ancient Greek musical modes. What you posted are "modern" ideas of what they might have been, but there's no way to tell how close they come to what the Ancient Greeks played and sang or what the modes actually were.

    Below is a link to a picture of a "kitheroidos" playing a "kithara".

    KITHEROIDOS AND KITHARA

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    November 16, 2002 - 11:47 am
    Yes, I gathered from the question mark. Oh! but what fun it is just to imagine those American folk songs.

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 16, 2002 - 12:06 pm
    AULOS. Be sure to click the links on this page

    Marvelle
    November 16, 2002 - 01:23 pm
    Everyone, the posts are wonderful. I'm enjoying the discussion and hope to chime in more frequently now that a book discussion I joined is ending. Here's a quote I was just given:

    "Sixty years ago I knew everything; now I know nothing; education is progressive discovery of our own ignorance."

    -- Will Durant

    So we have to go on learning? Like the Durants, and with the Durants' help.

    Marvelle

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 16, 2002 - 02:26 pm
    Hey, Folks!! Ain't this fun?

    tooki
    November 16, 2002 - 02:37 pm
    Apparently, Greek lyrics can exist independent of their music. Here is either a fragment or a short lyric by Terpander: SPARTA The Muse sings brillantly and spears of young men flower. Justice, defender of brave works, goes down the street of light

    From: Greek Lyric Poetry, translated by Willis Barnstone

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 16, 2002 - 02:54 pm
    If you click HERE you can follow the verses dedicated to that Ancient Greek poet, Anacreon, who espoused wine, women, and song and sing it along to a melody you might find familiar.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 16, 2002 - 03:06 pm
    "Tyrtacus continued Terpander's work at Sparta during the Second Messenian War. He came from Aphidna -- possibly in Lacedaemon, probably in Attica. Certainly the Athenians had an old joke about the Spartans, that when the latter were losing the Second War, they were saved by a lame Attic schoolmaster, whose songs of battle woke up the dull Spartans, and stirred them to victory.

    "Apparently he sang his own songs to the flute in public assembly, seeking to transform martial death into enviable glory. 'It is a fine thing,' says one of his surviving fragments, 'for a brave man to die in the front rank of those who fight for their country. Let each one, standing squarely on his feet, rooted to the ground and biting his lips, keep firm. Foot to foot, shield to shield, waving plumes mingling and helmets clashing, let the warriors press breast to breast, each sword and spear-point meeting in the shock of battle.'

    "Said the Spartan King Leonidas:--'Tyrtaeus was an adept in tickling the souls of youth.'"

    No different from the words of some of our national anthems today. Le Marseillaise comes to my mind.

    Robby

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    November 16, 2002 - 03:14 pm
    La Marseillaise:

    Allons enfants de la patrie. Le jour de gloire est arrivé

    Contre nous de la tyranie. L'étandard sanglant est levé

    L'étandard sanglant est levé. Entendez-vous dans les campagnes

    Mugir ces féroces soldats. Ils viennent jusque dans nos bras

    Égorger nos fils, nos compagnes. Aux armes citoyens

    Formez vos bataillons. Marchons, marchons,

    Qu'un sang impur, abreuve nos sillons.


    A more bloody national anthem there never was

    Eloïse

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 16, 2002 - 03:18 pm
    "It is a fine thing for a brave man to die in the front rank of those who fight for their country."

    Tyrtaeus



    “No bastard ever won a war dying for his country. You win a war by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country.”

    General George Patton

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 16, 2002 - 03:32 pm
    Click the link below for pages about Sparta and pictures. Be sure to click the links on the left titled: Dorian Sparta, Archaic Sparta and The Museum.

    SPARTA

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 16, 2002 - 03:54 pm
    SPARTA TIMELINE

    Justin
    November 16, 2002 - 10:27 pm
    Robby: My brother-in-law plays the trombone. I have often wanted to nail that thing to a tree.

    Faithr
    November 16, 2002 - 11:06 pm
    Just to think our National Anthem sounds just like this song that is devoted to love, drink, and song~!!!! Where would I ever have learned this other than here.Yes Robby this is definitely fun. faith

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 17, 2002 - 05:40 am
    "In the century before Lycurgas the Spartans relished poetry and the arts as keenly as any of the Greeks. The choral ode became so closely associated with them that when the Athenian dramatists wrote choral lyrics for their plays they used the Doric dialect, though they wrote the dialogue in the Attic speech.

    "It is hard to say what other arts flourished in Lacedaemon in those halcyon days, for even the Spartans neglected to preserve or record them. Laconian pottery and bronze were famous in the seventh centjry, and the minor arts produced many refinements for the life of the fortunate few.

    "But this little Renaissance was ended by the Messenian Wars. The conquered land was divided among the Spartans, and the number of serfs was almost doubled. How could thirty thousand citizens keep in lasting subjection four times their number of Perioeci, and seven times their number of Helots? It could be done only by abandoning the pursuit and patronage of the arts, and turning every Spartan into a soldier ready at any moment to suppress rebellion or wage war.

    "The constitution of Lycurgus achieved this end, but at the cost of withdrawing Sparta, in every sense but the political, from the history of civilization."

    It makes one to think. The number of "foreigners" and "lower class" citizens increasing. Each person looking over his shoulder at the other -- especially looking at those who were in a different socioeconomic class. A possibility of rebellion arising.

    The only answer apparently being to give less time and money to the "finer" things of life and to increase the power of the military not only to wage war outside the national boundaries but to suppress any rebellion by reducing any civil rights the citizens originally had. A culture based on fear. Yes, it makes one to think.

    Robby

    moxiect
    November 17, 2002 - 08:29 am


    Hi Rob:

    "The only answer apparently being to give less time and money to the "finer" things of life and to increase the power of the military not only to wage war outside the national boundaries but to suppress any rebellion by reducing any civil rights the citizens originally had. A culture based on fear. Yes, it makes one to think."

    I quoted you from post #961 - but isn't that being done today in places like Iraq and Afganhistan(can't remember how to spell it. History seems to be repeating itself in today's world, how very very sad.

    tooki
    November 17, 2002 - 02:58 pm
    line pure? How did they manage to "forbid" interbreeding, I wonder? None of the previous folks invading, immigrating, or just visiting Greece managed to do that. Did the Spartans, being so disciplined, manage to breed themselves into extinction? I suppose it wouldn't matter if Spartan males bred down. Those offspring would still be serfs, Helots, or Perioeci. But, one wonders about the women. Surely, with all the protection in the world, some of them must have transgressed. Did they pass the offspring off (I like that) as "real" Spartans. How strange.

    Justin
    November 17, 2002 - 04:31 pm
    I think Moxiect has a good thought. There is a parallel today with Lycurgus' rules. However, I think the parallel is closer to home than Irag and Afghanistan.

    The American Patriot Act passed by Congress and signed by the current President subjects us to new rules of conduct. These are rule changes based on fear of terrorist attack. We seem very willing to give up rights we have had since 1789. These are rights that were denied the American colonists and caused the American Revolution. Now in the blink of an eye we give them up. Will we ever get these rights back?

    The rights are as follows:

    Indefinite detention of non-citizens.

    Minimized judicial supervision of surveilance by law enforcement.

    Ability of Government to conduct secret searches.

    Agency sharing of sensitive information in criminal cases with no judicial review.

    The FBI given broad access to sensitive business records about individuals and students without having to show evidence of a crime.

    Acts of "civil disobedience" may be called terrorist and subject to investigation.

    Further, the Justice Dept. and the Executive Branch have assumed the power to violate Attorney-client privilege, to silence dissent by equating criticism with aid to terrorists, and to allow the FBI to spy on Americans in their churches, on the internet, in bookstores, and in libraries, even if there is no evidence of a crime. Librarians can be charged with a crime if they so much as inform their patrons that the government has been investigating their reading habits.

    Does this not sound very much like Lycurgus' edicts?

    We do some fearful things to ourselves when we are afraid. We have only to recall the Japanese internment, and the McCarthy era to recognize our social failings.

    Governments, the spartans under Lycurgus and our own, are always trying to increase their power. It's the natural tendency, and it occurs in spite of officials who swear to protect and defend the constitution. It is the citizens who must ensure that government does not overstep it's bounds. The Spatans failed to do that. Americans have failed to do that. We must be vigilant to survive in this fearful world.

    North Star
    November 17, 2002 - 08:30 pm
    It sounds like a police state to me.

    Bubble
    November 18, 2002 - 02:33 am
    A very lucid post Justin. Not alarmist as some might think. Do you believe there will be a way to reverse the processus?

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 18, 2002 - 04:35 am
    "Greek historians from Herodotus onward took it for granted that Lycurgus was the author of the Spartan code, just as they accepted as historical the siege of Troy and the murder of Agamemnon. The dates assigned to him vary from 900 to 600 B.C. How could one man take out of his head the most unpleasant and astonishing body of legislation in all history, and impose it in a few years not only upon a subject population but even upon a self-willed and warlike ruling class?

    "Nevertheless it would be presumptuous to reject on such theoretical grounds a tradition accepted by all Greek historians. The seventh century was peculiarly an age of personal legislators -- Zaleucus at Locris (ca. 660), Draco at Athens (620), and Charondas at Sicilian Catana (ca. 610) -- not to speak of Josiah's discovery of the Mosaic code in the Temple at Jerusalem (ca. 621). Probably we have in these instances not so much a body of personal legislation as a set of customs harmonized and clarified into specific laws, and named, for convenience's sake, from the man who codified them and in most cases gave them a written form.

    "We shall record the tradition, while remembering that it has in all likelihood personified and foreshortened a process of change, from custom to law, that required many authors and many years."

    I am wondering -- is it possible for one man to "think up" a body of legislation and impose it upon a population? Or does it require a group of people? Who came up with the idea that created the United States? Did those folks who met in Philadelphia together create the idea of democracy as we know it, or did they merely codify it? What about dictatorships? Are they the creation of just one man who then imposes his ideas upon the population? Do most laws evolve from customs which are already accepted by the people?

    Robby

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    November 18, 2002 - 08:12 am
    When WW11 started Hitler had first to win the election and with his talents as an effective orator, persuading the people to adhere to his propaganda - not realizing how far he would take them – the Germans could not turn back the clock once the war had started. Had he first mentioned his intentions, I don’t think that he would have been voted in. "He imposed his ideas upon the population" and the population were helpless to throw him out.

    If the ground is as favorable as it was in 1939 in Germany, when the whole country was in total collapse, Hitler’s speeches gave the people hope because they were desperate and saw no other way out.

    I don’t think it is possible for something like that to happen in America right now and the government is doing everything they can do to prevent terrorists from doing any more harm than has already been done. The price to pay is losing some freedom, I guess.

    Eloïse

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 18, 2002 - 09:08 am
    Germany's economy was in terrible shape after World War I because of reparations it had to pay according to the Versailles Treaty. In 1919, Hitler joined the German Worker's Party, which became known as the Nazi Party that same year, while he was in the German Army. It was not until 1932 that Hitler was granted German citizenship.

    In 1921, Hitler left the army and assumed control of the Nazi party. In 1923, Hitler was sentenced to five years in prison for leading an attack on Bavaria. While in prison, he dictated Mein Kampf to Rudolf Hess.

    In 1924, the Nazi party was outlawed. In 1925, Mein Kampf was published in Germany.

    In 1930, the Great Depression hit Germany, adding to its economic woes. In 1932, the Nazi party became the strongest party in Germany. In 1933, Hitler was named Chancellor of Germany.

    Fascism is described as a system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator. It advocates stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship and racism.

    This went right along with what Hitler wrote in Mein Kampf, and Germany was so terribly weakened economically that people favored the economic controls and strong leadership, since it appeared that the world was against that country. As I see it, the punishment for "crimes" committed in one war led directly to another, World War II.

    Hitler did not do this alone. Germany was starving and going under, and conditions were ripe for what he and the Nazi Party offered.

    Have we seen this kind of thing before in other older civilizations?

    Mal

    MaryPage
    November 18, 2002 - 09:26 am
    Page 78: to alter certain customs, or to establish new ones, the safest procedure would be to present their proposals as commands of the god; Well! This certainly still goes on today! Both in politics and in religion. And in mixing the two!

    tooki
    November 18, 2002 - 01:59 pm
    I think that the authors of these things codify what's "in the air," what is called the Zeitgeist. Those folks in Philadelphia were children of the Englightenment. As such they possessed shared beliefs and were able to hash out the Declaration of Independence. Remember that the whole process from the Declaration to the Constituion took a number of years. All was not easy agreement. Feelings also ran high against freedom for the States. Lycurgus might just have codified and clarfied what the Spartens were already doing and wanted to do. They already had a tradition going of militarism and eliteism, including slavery.

    Justin
    November 18, 2002 - 03:04 pm
    Politics is the art of the possible. We've all heard that before but few pay it any serious attention. The phrase is considered something of a joke. But it is a cruel joke on a vulnerable people.

    Government is always hungry to strengthen its power over the people. The English Parliament tried to strengthen its power over the lives of its colonial citizens so the colonials objected and withdrew. Now our own Congress with the blessings of the President and most of the citizenry takes away the very things we objected to as English colonials. Why? Because it is possible.There is fear in the land.

    The Congress and the President are now on the same team and only a few people are on the opposing team. We set up a system of checks and balances in 1789, set the system in motion and then walked away, expecting the thing to work all by itself. But the system is run by humans whose well being depends upon perpetuating themselves in power and politics is the method used to ensure perpetuity.

    Lycurgus didn't do it alone. He was able to do it because it was posible to do it. The legislative Greek citizenry aided and abetted the process.There was fear in the land.

    MaryPage
    November 18, 2002 - 03:39 pm
    Perhaps that is why FDR was so wise when he said, was it on December 8, 1941?, WE HAVE NOTHING TO FEAR BUT FEAR ITSELF!

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 18, 2002 - 03:48 pm
    As the wise philosopher once said:
    "Like, man, don't we ever learn anything?"
    Mal

    Justin
    November 18, 2002 - 04:31 pm
    Mal: Your description of Hitler's rise to power was well done.

    Sea Bubble: The reverse gear for the U.S. Government is the Supreme Court but it is not an independent body. A State or citizen must challenge the new legislation. Unfortunately, the problem of reversal is more severe than at first glance. The same party now controls both the presidency and the congress and there are Justices on the Court ready to retire. If new Justices are added to the Court by this administration, one party will control all three branches of government. The Court has already extended its power by selecting the President. That means that the limitations of the Patriot Act and the Home Land Security Bill will not be removed when the threat disappears. We will be a long time getting rid of these new governmental powers, if ever we get rid of them. I am afraid these restrictions will not be the only ones we will have to contend with. There is already a Gag Rule in place again. Lycurgus' rules lasted a long time.

    tooki
    November 18, 2002 - 04:48 pm
    Although what is currently happening is threatening, where is the other party as this is happening? I'm not seeing any opposition, or even discussion from the so called loyal opposition. Where are they? Are they too overtaken and rendered speechless by fear?

    Malryn (Mal)
    November 18, 2002 - 05:10 pm
    It's not they, it's we. It's easy enough to find out where people hang out if you're interested in joining them.

    Mal

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    November 18, 2002 - 05:43 pm
    Yes Mal, good post on Hitler.

    FOUR MARBLE PORTRAITS OF LYCURGUS, SOLON, HAMMURABI, MOSES, OTHERS

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 18, 2002 - 05:59 pm
    Who ever said that ancient history was irrelevant? No one in this discussion group. Durant continues:--

    "According to Herodotus, Lycurgus received from the oracle at Delphi edicts which were described by some as the laws of Lycurgus themselves, or by others as a divine sanction for the laws that he proposed.

    "Apparently the legislators felt that to alter certain customs, or to establish new ones, the safest procedure would be to present their proposals as commands of the god. It was not the first time that a state had laid its foundations in the sky. Tradition further relates that Lycurgus traveled in Crete, admired its institutions, and resolved to introduce some of them into Laconia.

    "The kings and most of the nobles grudgingly accepted his reforms as indispensable to their own security, but a young aristocrat, Alcander, resisted violently.

    "Lycurgus, so far from being daunted or discouraged by losing his eye, stopped short, and showed his disfigured face, and eye beaten out, to his countrymen. They, dismayed and ashamed at the sight, delivered Alcander into his hands to be punished.

    "Lycurgus, having thanked them, dismissed them all, excepting only Alcander. Taking him with him into his house, neither did nor said anything severely to him, but bade Alcander to wait upon him at table.

    "The young man, who was of an ingenuous temper, without murmuring did as he was commanded. Being thus admitted to live with Lycurgus, he had an opportunity to observe in him besides his gentleness and calmness of temper, an extraordinary sobriety and an indefatigable industry. So, from being an enemy, became one of his most zealous admirers, and told his friends and relations that he was not that morose and ill-natured man they had taken him for, but the one mild and gentle character of the world."

    Is there a message here?

    Robby

    Justin
    November 18, 2002 - 06:01 pm
    Yes, Tooki. Where is the other party? It lacks leadership and a voice.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 18, 2002 - 07:06 pm
    "Having completed his legislation, Lycurgus (says a probably legendary coda to his story) pledged the citizens not to change the laws until his return.

    "Then he went to Delphi, retired into seclusion, and starved himself to death 'thinking it a statesman's duty to make his very death, if possible, an act of service to the state.'"

    Robby

    Tejas
    November 18, 2002 - 07:43 pm
    How did we get from Greece to Hitler! The comment about Lycurgis reminds me very much of JFK.

    Russell Crowe

    North Star
    November 18, 2002 - 07:59 pm
    I believe the fathers of the constitution based their new republic on the Roman republic. They had a chance to examine the various kinds of government of the time. They certainly didn't want a monarchy, having just escaped from one and they settled on the Roman model.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 19, 2002 - 04:16 am
    "When we attempt to specify the reforms of Lycurgus, the tradition becomes contradictory and confused. It is difficult to say which elements of the Spartan code preceded Lycurgus, which were created by him or his generation, and which were added after him. Plutarch and Polybius assure us that Lycurgus redistributed the land of Laconia into thirty thousand equal share among the citizens. Thycydides implies that there was no such distribution.

    "Perhaps old properties were left untouched, while the newly conquered land was equally divided. Like Cleisthenes of Sicyon and Cleisthenes of Athens, Lycurgus replaced it with geographical divisions. In this way the power of the old families was broken, and a wider aristocracy was formed.

    "To prevent the displacement of this landowning oligarchy by such mercantile classes as were gaining leadership in Argos, Sicyon, Corinth, Megara, and Athens, Lycurgus forbade the citizens to engage in industry or trade, prohibited the use or importation of silver or gold, and decreed that only iron should be used as currenty.

    "He was resolved that the Spartans (i.e. the landowning citizens) should be left free for government and war."

    The power of landowning makes me think of the American colonial days, the methods of the Russian communists, and the fight in America as to who is entitled to vote. Why is the ownership of land so important?

    Robby

    tooki
    November 19, 2002 - 07:20 am
    perhaps W. B. Yeats said it best:

    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity. . . .
    And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
    Slouches toward Bethlehem to be born?



    I now realize I've had this memorized for about fifty years. No wonder I'm such a fraidycat.

    Tejas
    November 19, 2002 - 02:46 pm
    North Star - actually, our constitution was based on the best understanding of the British Consitution at that time. Especially the point about the separation of power. It was expected that Washington would serve as a figurehead and that the Secretary of the Treasury would serve as the prime minister. It was precisely the fact that Geroge III tried to become a Patriot King (benevolent despot) on the model of the Ch'ing Emperor that provoked the wrath of so many colonists.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 19, 2002 - 03:25 pm
    "It was a boast of ancient conservatives that the Lycurgean constitution endured so long because the three forms of government -- monarchy, aristocracy, and democracy -- were united in it, and in such proportions that each element neutralized the others against excess. Possibly this strange institution was a compromise between two related and therefore rival houses, or a device to secure without absolutism the psychological uses of royalty in maintaining social order and national prestige.

    "Their powers weere lmited. They performed the sacrifices of the state religion, headed the judiciary, and commanded the army in war. In all matters they were subordinate to the Senate. After Plataea they lost more and more of their authority to the ephors."

    How can monarchy, aristocracy, and democracy live together. Could we do that here?

    Robby

    Justin
    November 19, 2002 - 04:03 pm
    Actually Robby, we almost tried that. It was an aristocracy that met in Philadelphia and the vote was given to landowners. It was a democracy in the sense that citizens had the vote. Finally they thought of Washington as a potential king. So we were close. The Philadelphia convention was a most interesting meeting but we rarely encounter the minutes and tend to focus on the result.

    tooki
    November 20, 2002 - 10:02 am
    I'm tired of ol' Lycurgus and his really, really depressing constitution. I'm waiting until we get to its result: the Spartans, the effects of the code on their behavior, and their breeding processes. Then we can talk about the effects of this constitution on natural selection. But, I'm learning to be patient; pay me no never mind.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 20, 2002 - 10:47 am
    "The aristocratic and predominant elements of the constitution resided in the Senate, or gerousia, literally and actually a group of old men. Normally citizens under sixty were considered too immature for its deliberations.

    "The Assembly, or apella, was Sparta's concession to democracy. Aparently all male citizens were admitted to it upon reaching the age of thirty. Some eight thousand males were eligible in a population of 376,000.

    "Cicero compared the five ephors (i.e. overseers) to the Roman tribunes, since they were chosen annually by the Assembly. But they corresponded more to the Roman consuls, as wielding an administrative power checked only by the protests of the Senate.

    "It was the custom of the ephors to arm certain of the younger Spartans as a special and secret police (the krypteia(, with the right to spy upon the people, and, in the case of Helots, to kill at their discretion. This institution was used at unexpected times, even to do away with Helots who, though they had served the state bravely in war, were feared by the masters as able and theefore dangerous men."

    But this was in ancient times. Things are different now that we are more civilized?

    Robby

    moxiect
    November 20, 2002 - 11:03 am


    Rob quoting again from post 989

    "It was the custom of the ephors to arm certain of the younger Spartans as a special and secret police (the krypteia(, with the right to spy upon the people, and, in the case of Helots, to kill at their discretion. This institution was used at unexpected times, even to do away with Helots who, though they had served the state bravely in war, were feared by the masters as able and theefore dangerous men."

    But this was in ancient times. Things are different now that we are more civilized?

    And what do we call the FBI, CIA, Hitlers SS, and Russia's KGB weren't they the secret police. Guess we are not so different as human beings, just the manner on how it is being done, past and present and only GOD knows the future!

    Bubble
    November 20, 2002 - 12:33 pm
    True, Robby, there is change: no one would listen to old foggies, they are likely to be considered in their second immaturity, sorry childhood.



    Secret police exists everywhere, even if not all citizens are aware of it.

    monas
    November 20, 2002 - 12:42 pm
    We cannot blame governments, ancient or modern, for putting security measures on the land in times of war even if that implies spying on it's own people. The potential treat of insurrection, terrorist attacks or military coup against the government or social order is real. My personnal concern would be "to kill at their discretion", without trial. That is a danderous situation for the citizens who are at the mercy of the goodwill of a special force, unless that force holds the key to become themselves free of hate, racism, greed... to act as judge of human conduct. When the mass becomes afraid of it's own security force, we are looking at one which is far from holding the highest ideal for keeping order. As we become evolve in our human development towards peace, the control over our selves should become less.

    Françoise

    winsum
    November 20, 2002 - 02:45 pm
    imo control over people now resides informally in religion as well as govt. institutions. . . -=religious institutions don't have the right to kill but they certainly wash brains and make THEM unreliable and in some cases psychotics feel impelled to kill in order to carry out the demands of the religious VOICES . . . . that shape their lives. - god.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 20, 2002 - 04:27 pm
    It's marvelous to see some "old" friends re-joining us here. As we move closer to the Sparta and the Athens which is familiar to most of us, the pace of posting will undoubtedly quicken.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 20, 2002 - 05:41 pm
    "In the courage, discipline, and skill of the troops in the army Sparta found its security and its ideal. Every citizen was trained for war, and was liable to military service from his twentieth to his sixtieth year.

    "Out of this severe training came the hoplites of Sparta -- those close-set companies of heavy-armed, spear-hurling citizen infantry that were the terror even of the Athenians, and remained practically undefeated until Epaminondas overcame them at Leuctra. Around this army Sparta formed its moral code:--to be good was to be strong and brave -- to die in battle was the highest honor and happiness, to survive defeat was a disgrace that ever the soldier's mother could hardly forgive.

    "The Spartan mother's farewell to her soldier son was 'Return with your shield or on it.' Flight with the heavy shield was impossible."

    Comments?

    Robby

    MaryPage
    November 20, 2002 - 05:53 pm
    ROBBY, you have your tongue so firmly in your cheek I fear it may stick there and render you unable to eat! I refer of course to your 2nd post back.

    In times of peril to a nation there may be need for more surveilance, but never should our rights to being charged and tried in the regular courts of our land be thrown aside. Power corrupts viciously, and too many police and soldiers would use the opportunity to shoot first and swear to lies afterwards. I am not being paranoid; this has happened in every like instance throughout history.

    Faithr
    November 20, 2002 - 06:00 pm
    Marypage is right and I have been worried about the giving up of civil rights out of fear of terrorism and war especially since Congress saw fit to pass the latest so called homeland security bill.How far are we going.

    As to mothers telling sons to come home "with their sheild or on it," I think a good many mothers today have that same sort of pride in their soldier sons as has always seemed to be the case in history. More in some countries than others to be sure. Still Sparta was a case of fanatical pride and joy in war and the warrior. fr

    winsum
    November 20, 2002 - 07:24 pm
    the training of the civilian population then and now in israel is similar and ironicaly the desire to die in battle by the fundimentalists islamics is also. when are these guys going to agree on something or other...and forget mothers, they never played soldier as little girls but have always loved men in uniform. war is just a big useless farse...noisy without accomplishent, but we keep having it. is it the toys we give our little boy kids t play with. Bush is still playing with his.

    robert b. iadeluca
    November 21, 2002 - 04:57 am
    A friendly reminder that we keep the names of political figures out of this historical forum. There are political discussion groups in Senior Net where we can give vent to our frustrations.

    Robby

    jane
    November 21, 2002 - 05:07 am
    It's that time again.

    The new place is Story of Civilization click here