Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant ~ Export

What are our origins? Where are we now? Where are we headed?

Share your thoughts with us!

"I want to know what were the steps by which man passed from barbarism to civilization." (Voltaire)

Volume Three ("Caesar and Christ")
"Four elements constitute Civilization -- economic provision, political organization, moral traditions, and the pursuit of knowledge and the arts. "

"I shall proceed as rapidly as time and circumstances will permit, hoping that a few of my contemporaries will care to grow old with me while learning. "

"These volumes may help some of our children to understand and enjoy the infinite riches of their inheritance."

"Civilization begins where chaos and insecurity ends." "

A SEMITIC DYNASTY -- ANARCHY -- THE ECONOMIC DECLINE -- THE TWILIGHT OF PAGANISM -- THE ORIENTAL MONARCHY -- THE SOCIALISM OF DIOCLETIAN

"The Alemanni and the Marcomanni broke through the Roman limes and ravaged eastern Gaul."

"Seeing the wealth and weakness of the Empire, the barbarians poured down into the Balkans and Greece."

"The cultural graph of the third century follows loosely the curve of declining wealth and power."

"The Roman state did what all nations must do in crucial wars. It accepted the dictatorship of a strong leader."

In this Discussion Group we are not examining Durant. We are examining Civilization but in the process constantly referring to Durant's appraisals.
In this volume Will Durant recounts the flaming pageant of the rise of Rome from a crossroads town to mastery of the world. He tells of its achievements from the Crimea to Gibraltar and from the Euphrates to Hadrian's Wall, of its spread of classic civilization over the Mediterranean and western European world. He relates Rome's struggle to preserve its ordered realm from a surrounding sea of barbarism and its long slow crumbling and final catastrophic collapse into darkness and chaos.

Turning to the eastern Mediterranean, we accompany Christ on his ministry, witness the tragic scenes of the Passion, and sail and walk with Paul on his missionary labors. The Empire attains a new invincibility under the Emperor Aurelian, declines, and finally stiffens into a bureaucratic mold.

This volume, and the series of which it is a part, has been compared with the great work of the French encyclopedists of the eighteenth century. The Story of Civilization represents the most comprehensive attempt in our times to embrace the vast panorama of man's history and culture.
This, then, is about YOU. Join our group daily and listen to what Durant and the rest of us are saying. Better yet, share with us your opinions.

Your Discussion Leader:

Robby Iadeluca

Story of Civilization, Vol. III, Part 1
Story of Civilization, Vol. III, Part 2
Story of Civilization, Vol. III, Part 3
Story of Civilization, Vol. III, Part 4
Story of Civilization, Vol. III, Part 5

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"The Roman Empire in the East would go on until 1453.

"In the West it had come to an end." Not quite.

In 1492, Christopher Columbus discovers America. The Roman civilization jumped over the Atlantic ocean and came to rest on a brand new continent. A vast continent totally inhabited by hunters and gatherers (I think) and descendants of the Roman civilization established themselves there annihilating its native people in the process of reaping the immense wealth that the old world did not know existed and was just there for grab by whomever landed there first and the cicle starts all over again.

Eloïse

"If a man were called to fix the period in the history of the world, during which the condition of the human race was most happy and prosperous, he would, without hesitation, name that which elapsed from the death of Domitian to the accession of Commodus."

- - - Edward Gibbon

Don't you find that prosperity always seems to linked with war. It seems to me people tend to work more during the time that their country is fighting a war and than when peace is proclaimed and the soldiers return, than people are thrown out of work and we start a downward trend. If only we could convert our factories to producing products that would sell in peaceful times.

Was there a war during the prosperous Clinton era?

Mal

"Rome built a culture Greek in origin, Roman in application and result. She was too engrossed in government to create as bountifully in the realms of the mind as Greece had done. But she absorbed with appreciation, and preserved with tenacity, the technical, intellectual, and artistic heritage that she had received from Carthage and Egypt, Greece and the East.
"She made no advance in science, and no mechanical improvements in industry, but she enriched the world with a commerce moving over secure seas, and a network of enduring roads that became the arteries of a lusty life. Along those roads, and over a thousand handsome bridges, there passed to the medieval and modern worlds the ancient techniques of tillage -- handicraft, and art -- the science of monumental building -- the processes of banking and investment -- the organization of medicine and military ospitals -- the sanitation of cities -- and many varieties of fruit and nut trees, of agricultural or ornamental plants, brought from the East to take new root in the West. Even the secret of central heating came from the warm south to the cold north.
"The south has created the civilizations, the north has conquered and destroyed or borrowed them.
"Rome did not invent education, but she developed it on a scale unknown before, gave it state support, and formed the curriculum that persisted until our harassed youth.
"She did not invent the arch, the valult, or the dome, but she used them with audacity and magnificence that in some fields, her architecture has remained unequaled. All the elements of the medieval cathedral were prepared in her basilicas.
"She did not invent the sculptural portrait, but she gave it a realistic power rarely reached by the idealizing Greeks.
"She did not invent philosophy, but it was in Lucretius and Seneca that Epicurianism and Stoicism found their most finished form.
"She did ot invent the types of literature, not even the satire. But who could adequately record the influence of Cicero on oratory, the essay, and prose style, of Virgil on Dante, Tasso, Milton -- of Livy and Tacitus on the writing of history, of Horace and Juvenal on Dryden, Swift, and Pope?
Robby

Rome was a little like China today. Romans invented nothing but used every thing that was available to improve their style of living. So goes China today. The Romans were not like China in that they failed, even in the end, to manufacture anything other than literature. China manufactures everything except literature.

"Rome's language became by a most admirable corruption, the speech of Italy, Romania, France, Spain, Portugal, and Latin America. Half the white man's world speaks a Latin tongue.
"Latin was until the eighteenth century the Esperanto of science, scholarship, and philosophy in the West. It gave a convenient interntional terminology to botany and zoology.
"It survives in the sonorous ritual and official documents of the Roman Church. It still writes medical prescriptions and haunts the phraseology of the law. It entered by direct appropriation, and again through the Romance languages (regalis, regal, royal -- paganus, pagan, peasant) to enhance the wealth and flexibility of English speech.
"Our Roman heritage works in our lives a thousand times a day."

Robby

Robbie, when we made our 1,000 change, my computer hung up like it did the last time. It keeps telling me there are no more messages. I re-located this discussion by checking the "Outline." I sent an e-mail to Marcie to see if she can fix my problem. There may be others who got lost in the transfer too.

The Romans gave us the following: bedrooms and beds, birthdays, bread, broken mirror superstitition, candles, central heating, Christmas, coin-flipping practice, cookies, cosmetics, dolls, drinking toasts, evil eye superstitition, funerals, glass windows, hair styling, horseshoe superstition, hosiery, ketchip, marriage and wedding customs, marriage rings, New Year's Day, perfume, pies, St. Valentine's Day, salt, spas, stockings, table manners and customs, toothpaste, wedding cakes, and wigs. (Note: bedrooms and beds, birthdays, hair styling, horseshoe superstition, marraige and wedding customs, perfumes, and pies were taken from the Greeks and improved upon by the Romans.)

China, on the other hand, gave us: chopsticks, "Cinderella" (the fairy tale), eye drops, fans, firecrackers, ice cream, kites, nail polish, New Year's Eve, pasta, stimulants, wheelbarrow, and last but not least the yo-yo.

"Yo-yo-like toys originated in China about 1,000 BC. The Oriental version consisted of two disks sculpted from ivory, with a silk cord wound around their connecting central peg. The Chinese toys eventually spread to Europe, where in England the plaything was known as a "quiz" while in France it was a "bandalore." These European yo-yos were richly decorated with jewels and painted geometrical patterns that while bobbing created mesmerizing blurs."

As I see it. The legacy of Rome is that it saved the best of each culture it ruled for our western culture survival.

In our own country, we have the legacy of Rome, Orient and Native American.

Full circle complete, no I do not think so.

This site was linked in the Pompeii discussion. If I could, I'd fly up to Bangor, visit my sister in Franklin, and drive down to Wells with her to see what's going on.
Roman Market Day in Wells, Maine, September 5, 2004

That's quite a list, Scrawler!

Robby

It looks to me as though we have come to a Roman Holiday. Happy Holiday, everyone. Talk to you'all in the fall. My golly, it's warm here on the coast today. Must be every bit of seventy five degrees. No breeze today.

"When Christianity conquered Rome, the ecclesiastical structure of the pagan church -- the title and vestments of the pontifex maximus -- the worship of the Great Mother and a multitude of comforting divinities -- the sense of supersensible presences everywhere -- the joy or solemnity of old festivals -- and the pageantry of immemorial ceremony -- passed like maternal blood into the new religion, and captive Rome captured her conqueror.
"The reins and skills of government were handed down by a dying empire to a virile papacy. The lost power of the broken sword was rewon by the magic of the consoling word. The armies of the state were replaced by the missionaries of the Church moving in all directions along the Roman roads. And the revolted provinces, accepting Christianity, again acknowledged the soveriegnty of Rome.
"Through the long struggles of the Age of Faith, the authority of the ancient capital persisted and grew, until in the Renaissance the classic culture seemed to rise from the grave, and the immortal city became once more the center and summit of the world's life and wealth and art.
"When, in 1936, Rome celebrated the 2689th anniversary of her foundation, she could look back upon the most impressive continuity of government and civilization in the history of mankind.
May she rise again."
Durant ends this 672-page volume with the words:-
THANK YOU, PATIENT READER.

I would like to ask a favor before we leave the Roman atmosphere. Would each of you participants -- and lurkers also! -- please post a comment or two about what you feel you received from discussing "Caesar and Christ?" Anything at all -- if you would please?

Robby

The street expression says: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." And so we will continue the same procedure we have been following in The Story of Civilization since it began in November, 2001. Specifically, the following:-

1 - We will take a hiatus from this date until Sunday, September 5th (the day before Labor Day) when we will start discussing Durant's fourth volume, "The Age of Faith."
2 - As usual, this forum will be kept open for anyone who wants to make any comments.
3 - The ground rules will be more flexible, e.g. accepting political comments if they appear to relate to items discussed in Durant's volumes. Please keep in mind that there are political discussion groups on SN.
4 - It is hoped that, as has been done for over two years, that the postings will relate in some way to items discussed in the first three volumes and that the forum will not deteriorate into casual chats about weather, etc.
5 - The present ground rules about prohibiting religious proselytizing continues. Posts ignoring this rule will be deleted.

6 - Again, as usual, you can expect that your discussion leader will rarely make a post and will take a nice "sabbatical."

Robby -- Yes, take your "sabbatical", you have earned it! You invited me to take part in the discussion, but I continued to "lurk" and looked forward to the postings every day. I have a dreadful habit of reading too many books at one time. Right now, I have three going; one of them is Jacques Barzun's "From Dawn to Decadence", over 800 pages covering from 1500 to the present.

Oh, if only I had read Durant first...!! Yes, I'll watch for others comments, and will be here in September.

Sun

I'm wondering why we spend so much time trying to figure out why Rome fell instead of trying to find the reasons why the Roman civilization lasted so long.

Mal

I have lived eighty years and looking back on the events of that time,the Harding scandals, Lindbergh, the Market crash, the depression, The Morro Castle grounding, the Hindenburg explosion, I see them as unpredictable events. Yet, I look at the events of Rome and seek connections to our time. Clearly, the connection between modern times and Rome is not one of events but rather it is one of responses to events that is important. There are lessons in responses that can be seen and learned to prevent making the same mistakes over and over again. We have discussed several of these response lessons in previous postings so there is little need to go over them again.

Consider our responses to the events listed at the beginning of this posting. What about the Harding scandals? We exposed and publicized them. But that was not enough. We did not learn. Coruption in Government broke out again, and again and continues today. We seem to forget the lessons of the past so easily and we approach each new problem we face as though for the first time. We even seek new people to address a problem hoping they will bring a new approach to finding a solution. Can we benefit from history by approaching problems in such a manner? I don't think so.

This volume on "Caesar and Christ" was a true learning experience. There was so much I never knew in these beliefs, so many new facets to consider about supposedly known facts.

I am still digesting most of it. Many things I took for granted, not realizing they came from the deep past and had got a new varnish coat to get incorporated in today's faiths. I am not sure if it is changing me nor if the change would be permanent. The old rut is much more comfortable. That is probably why we don't learn much from others' experiences.

SoC-ists have shown themselves very open minded, careful of other people's feelings even when disagreeing and it was a pleasure to be here. Thank you to all and particularly to you Robby for your light guiding hand and your masterly leadership in this discussion. Thanks to all those who provided the variety of links to enrich us even more. Thankful smile to Jane for graciously hosting this page.

I look forward to the next session, after the holidays.

Bubble

For those who have been with this discussion since its inception, there may be those who would like to comment on previous volumes or on The Story of Civilization as a whole. To refresh your thinking, in the next couple of postings, I will post my introductory remarks to the first two volumes.

Robby

These were my introductory remarks to Durant's first volume (938 pages) entitled "Our Oriental Heritage." --

"We are the product of those who came before us -- our parents, our ancestors of long ago, even primitive man. Our behaviors, our beliefs, and our physicial appearances have been handed down to us in an unbroken line. Everything develops from something else - either genetically or environmentally or both.

"Communication -- transportation -- the struggle for survival -- all existed at the dawn of history and even before. The methods changed ever so gradually over the millennia and eons but the inherent needs remain.

"In this, his first of 11 volumes, Will Durant wrote; "I wish to tell as much as I can, in as little space as I can, of the contributions that genius and labor have made to the cultural heritage of mankind." He adds, in observing the Orient which he sees as the scene of the primordial stew: "At this historic moment when the ascendancy of Europe is so rapidly coming to an end, when Asia is swellng with resurrected life, and the theme of the twentieth century seems destined to be an all-embracing conflict between the East and the West ... the future faces into the Pacific, and understanding must follow it there." And he wrote that in 1932!!

"And then he asks this penetrating question: "How shall an Occidental mind ever understand the Orient?" In order to simultaneously challenge and yet depress us, he answers his own question -- "Not even a lifetime of devoted scholarship would suffice to initiate a Western student into the subtle character and secret lore of the East."

"Are we, therefore, about to engage in a useless exercise? Or are we in fact becoming part of that unbroken line wherein we help to pass on to our descendants of tomorrow or 5,000 years from now our own behaviors, beliefs, and appearances. We read today's comments of those who live in the Near and Far East, we learn of new dangers taking place in our homeland being caused by those living on the other side of the earth, and day by day we become more acutely aware of our cultural differences.

"How can it be that a culture so different from ours was, in effect, the creator of all that we in the West now are? Let us plunge into a discussion that may change our thinking forever!! Perhaps plunge is not the proper approach. Let us dip our toes in ve-e-ery slo-o-o-ow - ly for two reasons.

"1) Almost every remark of Durant is meaty. It can be so easy to move rapidly past comments relevant to our discussion, and
"2) Each civilization is a complete topic unto itself. Even the first topic (prehistoric man) has much to tell us about ourselves.

"Durant states that four elements constitute civilization:

"1 - Economic provision (our first sub-topic)
"2 - Political organization
"3 - Moral traditions
"4 - Pursuit of knowledge and the arts

"I ask, also, that you pause regularly to admire our Heading here. Marjorie, who created the beautiful Heading that had been used with the discussion group, "Democracy in America," kindly consented to use her artistic and technical talents to create our attractive Heading above. I thank her profusely for this. A beautiful Heading is like a beautiful cover to a book. It sometimes determines whether the book is opened or not."

Here are my introductory remarks to Durant's second volume (671 pages) entitled "The Life of Greece." --

"Welcome back to all you "veterans" of Our Oriental Heritage and a special WARM WELCOME to all of you who are entering The Story of Civilization for the first time! We are glad you are here and are looking forward to lots and lots of stimulating conversation. I have said many times and I repeat:-- in this forum we do not consider ourselves experts. For those of you who like mysteries, what we have here is nothing more than a mystery. We are trying to find the answers to the questions stated in the Heading above: "What are our origins? Where are we now? Where are we headed?" A suggestion:--Please read the entire Heading in detail.

"Helping us find those answers is Will Durant who gave us many tips as we explored the Near East, the Middle East, and the Far East. Now we look to him as he takes us through Ancient Greece. He says:--

"My purpose is to record and contemplate the origin, growth, maturity, and decline of Greek civilization from the oldest remains of Crete and Troy to the conquest of Greece by Rome. I wish to see and feel this complex culture not only in the subtle and impersonal rhythm of its rise and fall, but in the rich variety of its vital elements -- its ways of drawing a living from the land, and of organizing industry and trade -- its experiments with monarchy, aristocracy, democracy, dictatorship, and revolution -- its manners and morals, its religious practices and beliefs -- its education of children, and its regulation of the sexes and the family -- its homes and temples, markets and theaters and athletic fields -- its poetry and drama -- its painting, sculpture, architecture, and music -- its sciences and inventions -- its superstitions and philosophies."

"Even as we examine this ancient culture, Durant asks us to constantly examine our own culture and to make comparisons. Again, Durant comments:--

"Excepting machinery, there is hardly anything secular in our culture that does not come from Greece. Schools, gymnasiums, arithmetic, geometry, history, rhetoric, physics, biology, anatomy, hygiene, therapy, costmetics, poetry, music, tragedy, comedy, philosophy, theology, agnosticism, skepticism, stoicism, epicureanism, ethics, politics, idealism, philanthropy, cynicism, tyranny, plutocrcy, democracy -- these are all Greek words for cultural forms seldom originated, but in many cases first matured for good or evil by the abounding energy of the Greeks."

"WHAT A LIST!! It had been our practice in Our Oriental Heritage to occasionally pause in our examination of the Ancients and see what we in the Western Civilization had "inherited." Can there be any doubt that we will do this even more as we cover the topics in the above paragraph?

"What are your present-day concerns? Please note what Durant has to say in this regard:--

"All the problems that disturb us today -- the cutting down of forests and the erosion of the soil -- the emancipation of woman and the limitation of the family -- the conservatism of the established -- and the experimentalism of the unplaced, in morals, music, and government -- the corruptions of politics and the perversions of conduct -- the conflict of religion and science, and the weakening of the supernatural supports of morality -- the war of the classes, the nations, and the continents -- the revolutions of the poor against the economically powerful rich, and of the rich against the politically powerful poor -- the struggle between democracy and dictatorship, between individualism and communism, between the East and the West -- all these agitated, as if for our instruction, the brilliant and turbulent life of ancient Hellas. There is nothing in Greek civilization that does not illuminate our own."

The volume we have just completed, "Caesar and Christ," is 672 pages. For those who are curious, the next volume, "The Age of Faith" is -- are you ready? -- 1086 pages!!
Imagine a year or so from now what we will know (or think we know) about the concept of "faith."

Robby

SCRAWLER, That was impressive! (Your post #10)

ROBBY, That was not my comment in response to your request. I'll be back with that.

Rich

Here is the latest on the GREEK OLYMPICS (2004 STYLE).

Robby

Robby, I have a comment per your posting #16. I have been in this discussion for only two weeks, but you'll never find me short on opinions.

I really like the way you conduct the discussion, quoting Durant at length, inserting comments and eliciting opinion. There's never a dull moment. I seem to be able to take a break from whatever I'm doing in my non-cyber life, sit down at the computer, and find something new and thought provoking in the Story of Civilization folder.

Having participated in the Constantine/Christianity part of the discussion, I was struck by how easily Christianity could have become another one of those Mediterranean and Eastern religions that shone for a brief time, dimmed, and virtually disappeared. Even Constantine's convention at Nicea could have gone either way. The vote on the issue of the divinity of Christ was not unanimous.

Finally, has anyone noticed how Durant's four elements constituting civilization (Robby's post # 23): Economic provision, Political organization, Moral traditions, Pursuit of knowledge and the arts, closely parallel Maslow's need hierarchy for human beings: Physiological provision, Safety, Love and esteem, and Self actualization?

Rich

Rich:-You mean you have another life aside from this discussion group?

Robby

Sure, ROBBY, from what I gather from RICH'S posts in WREX he spends all his time painting walls and cleaning cellars when he isn't writing short stories, a memoir and poetry, or participating in this discussion. Of course, he has to take time to make Rhode Island clam chowder and quahaug pie for the big party we're having in the WREX discussion this coming Friday from 11 a.m. to midnight. Everybody's invited. Y'all come! We're located in the Writing, Language and Word Play folder. I guarantee that you'll have a good time.

The discussion of Caesar and Christ began August 26, 2003, so it took us almost exactly 11 months to go through the book and discuss it. Age of Faith will take longer. We now have 8 more books to discuss. If it takes a year for each discussion, it will be 2012 before we're finished.

The Story of Civilization discussion began November 1, 2001. I was here opening day, and have been here ever since without missing more than a couple of days when I went to the Richmond Bash. I've learned more than I ever dreamed I could, and my view of the present has changed because of our discussing the past.

This is all possible because of the determination and dedication of our noble facilitator, Dr. Robert Bancker Iadeluca. Let's have a round of applause for this man, who works a 40 hour week, has numerous other activities, and still has time to lead us in stimulating talk.

Thanks, ROBBY. You're a special kind of guy.

Mal

I have a life outside this discussion, too. In between posting here and in WREX, I publish three electronic literary magazines: Sonata, Allegro, and the m.e.stubbs poetry journal.

I also write short stories and novels. I'm excited about the fact that not one, but two of my novels will soon be published by PublishAmerica.

The first, Precarious Global Incandescence, is a humorous look at a womanizing professor who teaches at a Vermont women's college. He becomes involved as an actor in a serious play called Precarious Global Incandescence, which turns into a song and dance musical. There's a backstage look at the production of the play and everything that can go wrong and right about it, as well as a glimpse of the professor's serious midlife crisis.

The second one is Caroline's Muse. It is the story of a woman writer who lives in a 220 year old New Hampshire cottage with a widows walk that overlooks the sea. She finds herself unable to write the novel about Charleston, South Carolina she's been assigned by her publisher because the first owner of her house won't leave her alone until she writes her story. Caroline finds herself writing about Mariah Stubbs, the wife of a sea captain who abused her, and how she was shunned by the town when she was befriended after her husband's death by a kind, gentle man with whom she spent the four happiest years of her life. It's a ghost story with a message for women and men alike.

I can't believe that at last two of my books will soon be published. The pre-publication work is a big job and taking a great deal of time. Maybe some of you will read them.

Mal

That is WONDERFUL, Mal!! Now that SofC is on a hiatus, you might want to post a Link here to WREX.

Robby

Come visit us in WREX, and be sure to come to our party Friday, July 23rd.

The Writers Exchange WREX

I come into this discussion today, and as always find so much meat, I will be thinking about it for days. My only regret is that I didn't find this discussion in time to join in the first two books. I am now reading "Our Oriental Heritage", but it's not the same without you all to discuss it with.

I learned a lot about the rich heritage of Rome, (and I hope will continue in the Latin class.) More, I think I have a new feel for the flow of history: the ups and downs, ebb and flow, the gains and the losses. Frost wrote that "Nothing Gold Can Stay". It's also true that nothing gold is lost. I see people struggling over the milennia to find a good way to live this life, trying, failing, trying again. I have a new appreciation for all the lives that have gone before and will come after.

I also have a new sense of what it is like to explore this together with what Anne of Green Gables calls "kindred spirits". I hope all of you realize how special and unique this forum is. It has frankly spoiled me for other, more superficial, discussions. Thank you Robby and all of you. 2012 nonsense: I hope this goes on forever.

Congratulations Mal on the publication of your two books. If there is one who deserves this it is you. I urge you to continue writing for as long as you possibly can.

Like Mal I have been in S of C since the beginning. Even if I don’t post as much as I once did I am still following the discussion on a regular basis. I have learned so much in the third volume Caesar and Christ that I cannot keep track any more of what I have retained. Unfortunately I couldn’t retain all of it. It has made me understand the Bible in more depth than before. S of C helps giving faces to names that were familiar before and were a mystery in the past.

I have heard about the rise of Rome and its rich legacy, about famous historical figures that gave this world much of its beauty in arts and literature. It has enriched my mind and I can only hope I will be around for the next volume in September.

I congratulate you Robby for your leadership in the monumental task of bringing knowledge to us through Durant’s writing.

Thank you, you are a fantastic leader. Have a good summer and we will be thinking of you and your family during this summer hiatus. Have a good summer everybody.

Eloïse

For me about the 1960s somebody flipped a switch and it was as if the entire world went into over-drive. We do everything faster, but not necessarily better.

One reason that I think Rome lasted as long as it did was that the average person accepted much more than we would accept today. Life was lived at a slower pace. It was not until Rome got to the emperors like Nero that we start to see decline, but Rome wasn't built in day nor did it decline in a day.

Sometimes I wonder if the world of today continues to move at the rate that it is going whether our decline will come at a much faster pace.

I've learned so much during our discussion, it's difficult to come up with any one thing that impressed me more than anything else. I personally enjoyed reading about the accomplishments of Julius Caesar - especially his campaigns. Years ago I read about his campaigns in my Latin class, but I was never good at languages so I missed alot of what he did trying to struggle with the language.

I just marvel at the architechture much of which is still standing today and can't help but wonder if in another century the buildings we build today will be standing for another generation. I doubt it, but only time will tell.

Have a wonderful summer and I'll see you all in the fall! I can't believe that August is just around the corner. You've all made The Story of Civilization a great discussion group. Thanks!

I've learned a lot too. But the thing that particularly interested me was learning about the origins of Christianity. I was raised in two religions--Baptist and Catholic--and I had Christianity hammered into me by both of them. But dogma is not history. Dogma is what your church wants you to believe. By the time I left the Christian religion, I thought I knew everything I ever wanted to know about it; but it was fascinating to learn about its beginnings. These were things I didn't know. And so much more interesting than anything that happened afterward.

JoanK:-Here is a suggestion. Spend the next five weeks reading "Our Oriental Heritage." Every time you have a question or a thought that you might want to share, post it here. Remember that this forum remains open and everyone is still "subscribed." I'll bet that you will have one or more participants who will react to your posting. In that way you won't be reading it alone.

Robby

I just saw this article about GREECE and just had to share it with you.
Give me time -- I'll get out of here!

Robby

JOAN, here's an article that might interest you.
Rome and the Orient

Joan, You're taking the Latin course? Me too. I guess you're not in my class. Too bad, I was hoping to copy your homework.

Rich

RICH: Shucks. I was hoping to copy your homework!!

MAL: thanks for the link. Very interesting!

I'll take Robby's suggestion and call on you all when I get confused by the orient.

The Origin of Wine May Yet Show Us the Advent of Civilization

The Writers Exchange WREX is having its annual Aching Bones Society party today. You're all invited! Lots of food, lots of drinks, lots of dancing, lots of singing and a whole lotta fun. You're all invited! Join us fun-loving SeniorNet Bohemian WREX writers from 11 a.m. to midnight EDT. Y'all come!
Click here to join the WREX party!

If you haven't stopped by the WREX Aching Bones Society party, you're missing a very good time. Because of my Oriental Heritage, I just changed into my lavender brocade harem pants with the Chinese tunic for the baton twirling contest at the Talent Show, which is coming up soon.
Click here to get to the WREX PARTY. Y'ALL COME!

I stopped by and quietly stuck my head in the door to see Mal's party. Such a drunken degrading group I have never seen, many of them from this very discussion forum!! I quietly snuck out again. What happened to the serious erudite people here I have been used to seeing?

Robby

Click HERE for comments about the Olympics in Greece.

Robby

I am still lurking though I have not posted for some months. This is one of the best discussions of history that I can imagine. The participants add so much information that is not contained in the book.

New members of Senior Net who are interested in history might be encouraged to go to the archived material for this discussion just to become aquainted with the wealth of material on the web that members have discovered.

Have a good vacation one and all.

When we begin "The Age of Faith" in September, much time will be spent in discussing the clash of religious cultures, e.g. Christian vs Islamic. This ARTICLE may help to prepare our thinking in that direction.

Robby

Since when have you been on such a high horse, ROBBY IADELUCA? Why, I can remember other WREX parties when you were the first one to arrive and the last to leave.

I'm very disappointed that you didn't even condescend to say hello when you quietly stuck your head in the door. It was the least you could have done after all these years of close alliance and cooperation on my part and the part of others here in this Forum who attended the WREX party.

I can see that what we have here is a conflict between two ideologies -- Stoicism and Epicureanism. Can the two never meet, with one of them letting down its hair a little once a year?

It may be a while before I return to this Forum. I understand in the East that attitudes are less dogmatic. I'm seriously considering going to Byzantium and participating in the Forum there.

Mal

Mal:-I am Epicurean for five weeks and will return to being a Stoic in September.

Robby

I too am disappointed in you, Robby. You're just jealous because there was no more space under the piano and Mal was dancing with someone else!!

Move over, Mal. I'm coming with you.

I indicated to Ginny that I thought that there ought to be more non-fiction in Books & Literature. Here is her answer.
"Robby I am glad you like non fiction because September has only two offerings scheduled, your Story of Civilization and Achilles in Vietnam, which, as we can see, may have to be moved."
I wonder why this is.

Robby

Yes. More nonfiction is an excellent idea. Though new at SeniorNet, I would like to add that there be more current (within 2 years of publication) nonfiction book discussions. Let's discuss the wonderful older, tried and tested nonfiction books like those of the Durants. But, let us also devote more effort to studying current nonfiction, to keep up with the fascinating times in which we live. At this point in my 75 year old life I rarely read fiction (only the best reviewed) and seem to need "the facts," especially from the most recent nonfiction books. My wonderful local library keeps me current with the new books I request and receive (and also I give money to the library for this purpose since times are tough for many libaries.) Thanks. La Verne

Welcome, LaVerne! Although we are on a five-week hiatus between Volume Three and Volume Four of Durant, you are welcome and encouraged to start with us the first week of September. In the meantime, this forum is kept open and I am sure that other participants who are resting from an 11-month discussion of Volume Three, will pop in from time to time to talk with you and others.
Like you, in your 75-year old life, I, in my own 83-year old life, also rarely read fiction. Regarding keeping up with the "fascinating times in which we live," we find in this discussion group that we are constantly comparing ancient times with current-day activities.
Be sure to click onto the "Subscribe" button and we will be looking forward to hearing from you.

Robby

ROBBY, I suppose this means you wouldn't read SCRAWLER's book, A Century to Remember, which I think is a collection of short stories and poetry. I've just ordered it, so will know more when it comes.

Or my two novels when they're published sometime in the fall?

Mal

Thanks Mal for your purchase. Could we go so far to say that most fiction is really based on fact????????? Than we could read fiction and really be reading non-fiction if we read between the lines.

Thank you for your greeting, Robby. I have been enjoying the comments from Volume 3; I now have The Age of Faith and am starting to read it. I hope to join the discussion in September.

Mal and Scrawler, I have been scanning your messages all over the website and find them most interesting. I think "fiction is fine", having spent most of my life devouring it. But at this point, I want the facts straight, not between the lines, and it seems that there is no time to waste. La Verne

Laverne:-As you have noticed from following us in the third volume, we move along together, paragraph by paragraph, section by section, chapter by chapter. Certainly feel free to read as much of it as you want before we begin, keeping in mind that we make it a point not to jump ahead of each other as we post.

Robby

why do we wonder. . . are there frightening parallels in our world today. . it's a smaller world, corruption and lazyness, violence the the grabbing of power, these things aren't new . . . . political and religious leaders, always in a position to help their friends, do so.at the expense of everyone else . . . nothing new at all.
the whole discussion seemed political to me ony it was happening in rome, although it might as well be happening here and now. What keeps us together? war and the space program provide the only impetus to growth. Most of our technological discoveries come from that. The wonderful roman acquaduct, a technological improvement to keep the entire country enthralled for their water ? control as well as service?

This kind of discussion in it's present format is hard for me because there is so much close spaced text to read on the screen. I like it better when there are spaces for an individuals creative thoughts on it. . . . less text more participation.

I think in order to read it I'll have to copy it and put it into another program where I can edit the format, larger and not italic. bold is good, so is "comic sans" for separation of characters.

Winsum - note the Enlarge Text button on the upper right side of the page.

Hi. George: I haven't seen you for awhile.

I agree with those who want to schedule more non-fiction, but I also like fiction. If you like historical parallels and don't mind historical fiction, I read an interesting book lately. It is "The Dream of Scipio" by Ian Pears.

It links three men living in France (Gaul), one during the fall of the Roman Empire, one during the age of faith at the height of one of the plague epidemics, and one during the Nazi occupation of France. All are scholars: they are linked by an article written by the firstand rediscovered in turn by the other two. Not strong in characterization or action; it's focus is parallels in the moral dilemmas faced by individuals living in times of crisis. It's not an easy read, but very interesting.

did it already, that button, any larger and it falls off the screen and has to be scrolled. . . . a nineteen inch screen. Iw was wondering what the roman diet was llike. did they ha ve a healthy one or was it not. I think I remember reference to fruit and wine . . . what else? without meat they would lack b-12 and become very anemic . . . just wondering.

More news of the OLYMPICS.

Robby

ISICIA OMENTATA (a kind of Roman Burgers)
PEPONES ET MELONES (Water and Honey Melons)

PATINA DE PISCICULIS (Souflée of Small Fishes)

PATINA DE PIRIS (Pear Souflée)

MINUTAL MARINUM (Seafood Fricassee)

GUSTUM DE PRAECOQUIS (Starter with Apricots)

FABACIAE VIRIDES ET BAIANAE (Green and Baian Beans)
PULLUM FRONTONIANUM (Chicken a la Fronto)

PULLUS FUSILIS (Chicken With Liquid Filling)

TIROPATINAM (A Kind of Souflée)

IN OVIS APALIS (Boiled Eggs)

VITELLINA FRICTA (Fried Veal)
IN VITULINAM ELIXAM (Boiled Veal)

ALITER BAEDINAM SIVE AGNINAM EXCALDATAM (Steamed Lamb)

SARDA ITA FIT (Tuna)

SCILLAS (Big Shrimps)

MUSTACEI (= Meat Rolls)

Source:

Roman Dishes

sounds good, healthy. they weren't anemic but did everyone rich and poor have the same diet? italian resturants often use the word roma in their names, but their menues are mostly pasta, pizza, and lots of olive oil.

Winsum - you will also find a lot of different italian fishes that consist of fish.

I have often eaten at my Italian grandma's table. Non-Italians often think that Italians subsist on spaghetti and other types of pasta. To the contrary, the emphasis is on vegetables. The meal usually starts with a bowl of macaroni or some similar dish but then the real meal comes out and you will see the various vegetables that used to be seen in Italian markets but are now found in most supermarket vegetable sections. Fruits are important in Italian meals, too. As Moxi says, fish is regularly eaten too.

Robby

Here's something about the History of Pasta. Arabs were eating it in the 5th century CE, but Italians didn't have it on the menu until 800 years ago.

For all: Moxiect is known as M O X I E, not M O X I. The CT in her user name means Connecticut because that's where she lives. MOXIE is named for Moxie, a soft drink made from roots like root beer.

Moxie is bitter-sweet and gives you a lift when you first taste it. In northern Massachusetts where MOXIE and I grew up soft drinks are known as "tonic". When Moxie the soft drink was first made in the 1800's, that's what it was used for, as a health tonic. I believe it was made by a man who lived in Maine.

Now you know more about Moxie ( soft drink ) than you ever wanted to know. I'm sure the Romans didn't drink it.

Did you know that in Ancient Rome there were three grades of wine? The top grade was served to the upper class. The middle grade was for everyone else except the slaves. Slaves were given the dregs at the bottom of the barrel, which were more like vinegar than they were not.

Ancient Romans loved GARUM. Garum is a kind of sauce made from the fermented intestines of fish. They used it the way we use ketchup.

Ancient Romans also kept eels in their fish ponds. Goldfish were found in China, not Rome. Romans ate eels cooked in various ways, and some of them threw thieves and slaves who misbehaved to the eels as a fatal kind of punishment.

That's your food and drink trivia for today.

Mal

You forgot another meaning for the word MOXIE. it means spirite having the spirit to defend youhelf when being abused. having "moxie". if the drink provides the energy to do this there is a kind of connection isn't ther (s). . . .

as to pasta, by the time I've eaten some I"m full. . . until next time. I"ve been using it a lot and making up my own sauces out of ods and ends of other commercial ones, some for fish, some for salads some for chicken so no sauce is ever repeatable but importantly, I shouldn't because of the salt. they all have it. nothing tastes really good without salt I've found and I"m not supposed to use it, so I use a lot of pepper. Claire

that is a wonderful site, even including something from Ovid, the source of our literature on roman mythology. . . I followed it to Mama 's kitchen here http://www.inmamaskitchen.com/FOOD_IS_ART/pasta/historypasta.html and bookmarked it. I like using everyday things to learn about the world. . . it takes me into peoples homes and lives. .. . claire

The use of that word in that way came about because of the soft drink, CLAiRE. That's the same website I posted a link to this morning, by the way. I'll check it out further.

Mal

We enjoy many foods whose Italian names tell us something of their shape, mode of preparation, or origin: espresso (literally "pressed out"), cannelloni ("big pipes"), ravioli ("little turnups"), spaghetti ("little strings"), tutti-frutti ("every fruit"), vermicelli ("little worms"), lasagna ("baking pot"), parmesan ("from Parma"), minestrone ("dished out"), and pasta ("dough paste"). All these foods conjure up images of Italy, and all derive from that country except one, pasta (including vermicelli and spaghetti), which was frist prepared in China at least three thousand years ago, from rice and bean flour.

Tradition has it that the Polo brothers, Niccolo and Maffeo, and Niccolo's son, Marco, returned from China around the end of the thirteenth century with recipes for the preparation of Chinese noodles. It is known with greater certainty that the consumption of pasta in the form of spaghetti-like noodles and turnip-shaped ravioli was firmly established in Italy by 1353, the year Boccaccio's Decameron was published. That book of one hundred fanciful tales, supposedly told by a group of Florentines to while away ten days during a plague (hence the Italian name Decamerone, meaning "ten days), not only mentions the two dishes but suggests a sauce and cheese topping:

"In a region called Bengodi, where they tie the vines with sausage, there is a mountain made of grated parmesan cheese on which men work all day making spaghetti and ravioli, eating them in capon's sauce."

For many centuries, all forms of pasta were laboriously rolled and cut by hand, a consideration that kept the dish from becoming the commonplace it is today. Spaghetti pasta was first produced on a large scale in Naples in 1800, with the aid of wooden screw presses, and the long strings were hung out to dry in the sun. The dough was kneaded by hand until 1830, when a mechanical kneading trough was invented and widely adopted throughout Italy.("Panati's Extraordinary Orgins of Everyday Things" (pp 405-406))

Is the Western world decadent? Is science and humanism sounding its death knell? Was the Renassance period, not a time of birth, but a signal of death? This ARTICLE suggests that this may be so.
Should we return to ancient disciplines and beliefs?

Robby

Pasta is a great alternative to bread and I enjoy it at least twice a week, not necessarily with the tomato and meat sauce we usually serve with it here but it is good home made with a bit of fresh vegetables slightly cooked in olive oil. In Italy it is served before the meat dish, accompanied with good Italian wine.

Robby, I don't know if we can return to ancient discipline and beliefs but a change of ideology often comes from a small group of intellectuals and students who want to make a new world for themselves. This time though the push for individualism and materialism is too well anchored in the Western ideology to be easily toppled. It is hard to predict how the crash will come about but we certainly cannot go on this way forever if everybody think they are right.

Past history does not change human's natural penchant for war and power. Every time a civilization advanced it seemed to have started its assent from a conquered land that had been destroyed by war.

Eloïse

This is a predominantly Christian country. What could be more traditional than Christianity? Some of its roots lie in pagan beliefs, which evolved before history was written down. There's a reason why Christmas is held at the same time as ancient Saturnalia festivals and other such festivals previously, and there's a reason why Easter is celebrated at the same time as pagan fertility festivals were.

Jesus Christ preached that people should achieve the Kingdom of God on earth. It was years after his death that people preached that the Kingdom of God is in heaven. That heavenly Kingdom of God, as stated in the Bible, is one where the streets are paved in gold, and there is no want or need. Is it any wonder that many human beings would like to achieve what Jesus preached, the same kingdom on earth while they live?

There are some traditionalists who say that one cannot be a good person unless he or she has suffered during their lives. I've known great pain and suffering in my life, poverty and loss. I've also known a degree of comfort. Did the suffering make me a better person? I doubt it, but how can I know when suffering began at a very early stage of my life and has continued throughout it to this very day?

Which would I choose in my right mind? I'd choose comfort and freedom from the stresses that pain and not having any food to eat can bring, and I've known both at the same time.

I remember once not having any money for food for three weeks. During that time I lost 20 pounds and became very weak. Did that experience make me a better person? No, it made me sick.

People talk about spirituality, and how it sustains us. I'm not sure what they mean. Are they talking about religion, or are they talking about something else? Spirituality will not feed us, and without food you are dead.

Ralph Waldo Emerson spoke about the Golden Mean, the balance between materialism and spirituality, the balance of all things. Too many people in this rich country live way below that balance line, others barely straddle it, a few are way above it. Will traditionalist beliefs even things out? They never did before now, did they?

What brings about change? Change comes when a majority of people rise up against their lot in life and the injustices and inequities that affect them, and they fight for change.

I've posted this before. In the 60's I read a piece in a book about the materialism that was destroying family values and society, and the uselessness of ne'er-do-well youths. I nodded my head in agreement because it seemed as if the traditions and values I knew were being turned upside-down. Then I found out that the man who wrote this lived in China and what he said was written long before the birth of Christ.

We say the same things over and over. Nothing is new. What I'm looking for is ideas and actions that are new.

Mal

Wonderful site, Mal.

When I visited my Italian aunt some years ago, she complained that they didn't eat Italian anymore. They hardly ever had pasta; only three or four times a week. (She served us pasta).

all it took to get this discussion going was the suggestion that we talk about food. . . meaa culpa . . . but as to robbies suggestion that we return to the old disciplines. . . are you serious just looking to make waves. as a woman I'd be a slave to my husband who would own me. . . chattel and othere neat aspects . . . . claire

Robbie

Materialistic yep, here in this country we are, which is sad.

Individualistic, no one should be afraid to be different but also an individual should know when to part of the team. Which I believe this country as a melting pot sure knows how do to.

Return to the old Traditions, the problem there is WHOSE Traditions?

I would hate to see the world return to brutality of ancient civilizations.

I"m with you and I have a typing habit. I sime to use quotes instead of apostrophes. and don't bother to correct most errors. weell....so be it . . honk your horn for individualism

Claire:-I don't remember suggesting that we return to the old disciplines.

Robby

It would be pretty hard to go back to the way things were. All of the new people that come into our country bring with them their culture and their likes and dislikes. I enjoy trying some of them out and learning some Spanish.

" Should we return to ancient disciplines and beliefs?

Robby "

Aw, come on, Claire....Asking the question: ..."should we return...?..." is not the same as suggesting that we "do return...".

It doesn't sound like a recommendation to me. Think about it.

Sun

Many of our postings in this forum have been in the form of questions -- which, then, led to opinions by various participants.
The very Heading itself is loaded with questions.

Robby

I visited this forum a month ago with the intention of catching up with you on Durant. I'm about four chapters away from finishing the third volume of The Story of Civilization and have enjoyed your last few posts. (I read the first two volumes a year or so ago.) At any rate, I'll be ready to join you on volume 4 in September and am looking forward to it.

When reading Durant's words on Christ, I got interested in his religious background and found the site www.willdurant.com. You all probably know about it, but just in case you don't I thought I'd tell you about it. He was raised Catholic and almost entered the priesthood, then went way in the other socialist direction before he met Ariel. There's a couple of books about the Durants that I'm interested in: one is called Transitions and the other is Dual Biography. If anyone has read these, I'd be interested in your opinions. They are a fascinating couple.

Pamela

YOU ASKED THE QUESTION AND I GAVE YOU MY ANSWER. THAT'S CLEAR ENOUGH. . . . claire

Before a great vision can become reality there may be difficulty. Before a person begins a great endeavor, they may encounter chaos. As a new plant breaks the ground with great difficulty, foreshadowing the huge tree, so must we sometimes push against difficulty in bringing forth our dreams. "Out of Chaos, Brilliant Stars are Born"

I-Ching Hexagram #3

This has always been one of my favorite sayings. In order for us, as a society, to bring forth new ideas we will face great difficulty. I think we have reached a time in our lives that people are afraid to approach others with new ideas because they feel they might be portrayed as different. I can see the pendelum slowing shifting back to the 50s where everyone seemed to be the same.It takes courage and it takes a risk on our parts to bring forth new ideas.

Alright, guys, here's a question suggested by another forum. If you were told you had to go back in time to one of the times/civilizations you studied in the first three volumes, where would you go? (no fair saying you'd stay here).

SCRAWLER: please don't feel you have to catch up to join. Many of us have joined in the middle. Just jump in.

Any connection between THIS and the way the Romans conducted warfare?

Robby

Joan,

I'm not going to cop out by saying that all previous civilizations were lousy and I would choose to say here. I think your question states that if you HAD to go back to another civilization which would you choose.

In prior times, the average lifespan was much shorter than what we know now, due to disease, war, government oppression, religious oppression, unchecked crime, anarchy, etc, so none of them appeal to me if I were to go back as just a regular guy (i.e. not King).

But, OK, I HAVE to go back. Staying here is not an option by your rules, therefore I would go back to being a Native American long before Europeans "discovered" America. Clean water, clean air, abundant game, fruit, berries, herbs, and plenty of wide open spaces.

Sounds good to me right now. Joan, where do I sign up for this?

Rich

you beg the question. I think it refers to the other continent. we know America is great. . but did the durants cover the indiginoous tribes of the NEW WORLD. I don't know. I haven't been here that long. You're right of course except that which american indian and when. why not the mayas or the incas they had a very advanced civilization. . .. claire

Since we are having an intermission, I let me tell you something about the last days of Will Durant's life.

At that time, I worked in the diagnostic X-ray department of a hospital. I had to deal with about 150 dictations per day, transcribing them via computer. Of course, I had to concentrate on the diagnosis, and not the data of the patients. However, when I had to do about three reports per day, and for many days, on a patient named William Durant, I became interested. Can he be our Will Durant? The date of birth showed that he probably was. Right away, I ran out of my office, and went to the nurses' station that belonged to his room, and asked his nurse, was he really Will Durant? And he was. The nurse also told me that at the same time he had been hospitalized, so was his wife, Ariel, but the family decided to put them into two different hospitals, so that they can tell optimistic lies to each of them. At the time of my conversation with the nurse, Ariel was already dead, but Will was not told about it.

I ran down to the gift shop, bought a pot of beautiful purple cyclamens, wrote a letter expressing how much his work meant to me, and instead signing my name, I signed, one of the numerous unknown employees who are working for you and wish you all the best.

The continuation is sad. There were no more X-ray reports. I am sure he was in no condition to read my letter or just enjoy the flowers. He passed away the same day. I had the sad privilege to write the last letter to him, and to send him flowers.

Thank you, Hegeso, for that personal touch regarding our wonderful mentor and guide, Will Durant.

Robby

I'd like to go back to the Greek and Celtic civilizations. My family comes from the Greek Islands on my mother's side and my father's family goes back to the Celts.

a touching story. . . .

HEGESO That was a touching event. What year was it that the DURANTS died ? ++ Trevor

Hegeso, it is so touching to read that Ariel died before Will who had been hospitalized, each one couldn't live without the other. True love they had for each other. Thank you for sharing this with us who have been with the Durants for the past 3 years for some of us, they have become part of our lives.

Eloïse

3kings, Will died of congestive heart failure combined with pneumonia. I don't know about Ariel's cause of death, because she didn't die in the same hospital. They were in their nineties.

Bobbie, will you accomodate me in the discussion of the middle ages?

Will Durant died in 1981 at the age of 96. When he was taken into the hospital with heart problems, Ariel stopped eating. She died in 1981 at the age of 83. Will died shortly after he heard that she had died.

Source:

Will Durant biography

Mal

Malryn, Will never knew that Ariel died. I talked to his nurse.

HEGESO, what I said came from the Will Durant Foundation biography, which is linked in Post #100. Scroll down to the pictures of Will's and Ariel's gravestones, and you will see it.

Mal

In this forum where religion is often a sub-topic, this item from today's NY Times may be of interest.

"Protestants becoming a minority:

The share of Americans who describe themselves as Protestant has dropped nine percentage points over the last decade, to just 52 percent, a new University of Chicago survey found. By next year, said Tom Smith, director of the survey, active Protestants will become a minority in the United States for the first time since the nation's founding."

Among the various questions that the Ancient Olympic Games officials had to address, I wonder if they had THIS ONE?

Robby

It took me awhile to find the Op-Ed editorial by William Falk from which ROBBY posted what he did about the decrease in the number of Protestants in this country. I was anxious to see where these Protestants went. Did they change to other religions? Did they drop out of religion completely?

Falk says nothing more than what ROBBY posted, so I did a search. The author of one article said that he and others, who once considered themselves Protestant, now refuse to use that label and call themselves Christians. Some Protestants have become Buddhists. Buddhism is not always considered a religion. Others have converted to Judaism or Catholicism. A few have become Muslims, or belong to other religions. Some no longer have religion in their lives.

I think it's very difficult to tell whether religious groups are increasing and decreasing, since the way people respond to polls (or don't participate in them at all), is a purely personal decision.

In the article about the Olympics and transgender issues, Dr. Stephan Walk, professor of sports sociology at California State University at Fullerton says:

"It's no accident that the way people think about the transgender issue in sports overlaps a lot with the doping issue. They think there's something out there called the natural state of human beings, against which we juxtapose these supposedly artificial manipulations.

"But so much of what athletes do is an intentional attempt to manipulate the body's natural processes," he added. "Is the whole idea of increasing muscle mass by overusing the muscle natural or artificial? Is there anything natural about a specialized sports diet? The distinction between natural and artificial got blurred a long time ago."

That's something to think about, isn't it?

Mal

After making allowances for the validity of survey questions and responses, I think, some of the explanation for the decline in Protestant identification may lie in the manner of expression. The percentage of the population calling itself Protestant may be declining because we have experienced an influx of Asians, most of whom are not Protestants. The Protestant term applies primarily to Europeans and the European base may be shrinking as well as the Protestant base. We are, simultaneously, experiencing an influx of Hispanics who tend to be Catholic and not Protestant. These two elements could well be the cause of decline in the Protestant portion of the US population.

in the united states is becoming less important in many peoples dayly lives so you might also point to the swelling of the atheist population. . coming out of the closet, since it used to be unacceptable socially etc.

When I was a Scout Executive, it was necessary for someone applying to be a Scoutmaster to put down his religious preference. Having no religion was unacceptable. (Remember, the 12th point of the Scout Law is "A Scout is Reverent.")
Therefore, I would imagine that many people who had no specific beliefs put down Protestant, this being to some folks a "neutral" religion as compared to Roman Catholic or Jewish.

Robby

In surveys, there are often two aspects of religeon asked about: religeous affiliation, and religiosity. The person who hasn't been near a religious institution for twenty years may put down Protestant because that is what he/she was raised. Now, as said, it may be more acceptable than before to put "none". A good survey would also measure religeosity, a measure of how important religeon is in the person's life. It would be interesting to see how that fluctuates. My guess would be that many of the immegrants are more religeous than natives.

after I found out that NONE was't acceptable and I think I put down methodist. . . I"m of jewish background and at that time in the fifties jewish wasn't all that acceptable either. One of my co-workers looked at me and said, "I know a jew when I see one" of course she didn't mean me, but I felt like telling her and didn't. . . aeitheists have experienced discrimination too. . . . claire

Speaking of RELIGION?

Robby

the new york times wants to know just about everything about you but your shoe size and your religion before You can read their STUFF. Ithink my daughter signed me up there but I forget the what and the how... so what?

ROBBY - thanks for the link to the NYT article. The phone has been ringing off the hook as our Armenian and Assyrian friends in Washington DC share information with us about the bombing of the Christian churches in Iraq.

RE indciating one's religious affiliation on employment applications: I've always just written BELIEVER. Coming from a Jewish/Christian/Muslim, French/Irish/Persian background, it made sense to me to do so.

MAHLIA!!! I thought we had lost you! I hope you will return to being active with us when we start our fourth volume in September. This volume will include the start of Islam and we will need your input.

Robby

I have come to the conclusion that there will be a bitter battle between Islam and Christianity. It will not happen in my lifetime and, in my opinion, it may not happen for another 50-100 years. In The Story of Civilization, remember how fast the centuries passed?
But it will happen and if I am wrong, I will not be around so that you can say:-"You were wrong!"
I am looking forward to what Durant has to say about Islam in the fourth volume.

Robby

ROBBY thank for the welcome back. I've been reading periodically, but spending most of my time getting used to a new home in North Carolina, bidding my son farewell as he deployed to Afghanistan and preparing my husband to return to Egypt for the Fall semester.

Unfortunately, I think you're right about the battle between Islam and Christianity. We are seeing all the initial signs - cultural, as well as misunderstood (purposely or otherwise) interpretations of the core of the religions. The result of the recent attacks against Christian churches in Iraq brought numerous phone calls from Muslim friends absolutely aghast at the attacks. My husband stood in the middle of the room, staring at the TV news and shouting at the top of his lungs "THEY (the attackers) have no right to do this. They are Satanic! They are NOT Muslims! May God Strike them Dead!" He was enraged for hours, as he discussed the attacks with friends on the phone. (There is a large Christian Coptic and Orthodox Catholic community in Egypt and one of my husband's best friends is Christian, so the attacks were an emotional shock.)

The dissent between the core of the religions will surely continue as long as there is misinformation fostered and financed by radical elements within the religions. I don't know which is worse - to hear someone of Franklin Graham's stature refer to Islam as an evil reglion or to hear a distinguished Islamic scholar speak of Christians as infidels. It's painful both ways. Ignorance of the religions - and of the cultures, languages, and people within each breeds continued violence and lack of tolerance. As the British find it increasingly difficult to accept that thousands of Muslims ared relocating to their country, the Muslim immigrants are finding it extraordinarily hard to accommodate some of the requirements of residency. The same could be described in sections of the USA - and perhaps also in Canada, although I am not as familiar with the Muslim communities vs Christians in Canada.

My sense (personal and professional) is that the only way to continue to work towards acceptance is through education and purposeful interaction between groups of different backgrounds. One of the first articles I read in the local newspaper after we moved to NC was about a group of Muslimas at a local mosque hosting an Open House for the public to learn more about Islam. Some of the first guests through the mosque door were Quaker woman.

Mahlia, good to see you my friend. I searched for information that you mentioned about the MUSLIM COMMUNITY IN CANADA

There are about 600,000 Muslims in Canada, an increase of 129% in the last few years and in Quebec the increase is 142%,

In the world there are 1.5 billion Muslims and Islam is the second largest religion group in France. That would be normal though as most of the French population is Christian.

At the rate the conflicts are developing in the world there seems to be no hope that the two religious groups are going to come soon to a peaceful agreement and peace.

Eloïse

Mahlia tells us:-"My sense (personal and professional) is that the only way to continue to work towards acceptance is through education and purposeful interaction between groups of different backgrounds."
As we look backward through the centuries that we have explored, do any of us here remember where such "education and purposeful interaction" took place between differing cultures?

Robby

No, not much has been done to educate people in this country.

I had thought I was quite tolerant and fairly knowledgeable about other religions besides Christianity. Why, I was exposed to them in Sunday School when I was a child, wasn't I? And I took a course in World Religions, didn't I?

Through discussing The Story of Civilization I discovered that I knew very little, even about the history of Christianity. Various prejudices I refused to admit I had have been exposed to me through these books. Me prejudiced? Are you kidding?

Well, on the positive side, I did the best I could to educate my children about different religions and cultures, and I've told as many people as I could about the Southern Poverty Law Center's "Teaching Tolerance" program. I suppose that's a start.

Mal

Southern Poverty Law Center

Teaching Tolerance

When we say Islam fighting Christianity, to be more exact are we really saying Islam versus Roman Catholicism? That is, the Roman Empire in its present form? Please look at this review of BRESLIN'S BOOK in which a devout Catholic says that the Church has left Christ. I am wondering if we are seeing a gradual (over the centuries) weakening of Cristianity and a gradual strengthening of Islam.

Robby

When the Koran speaks, will Canadian law bend?

Mal from your link: "Critics of Shariah say Muslim women would be deprived of their rights because, even after emigrating, they frequently live in isolation from the broader society and are beholden to men who routinely tell them what to do and say.

The Muslim community has increased so much that on the streets of Montreal we often see many Muslim women, I say women because without a dress code for men, we don't know if a man is Muslim or not.

In a drug store last year a Muslim woman wearing a head scarf asked me to advise her on how to color her hair lighter as she looked sideways and I saw her husband watching what we were discussing from a distance. I said to her that if her hair was black, it is hard to color it blonde without first bleaching it. No, she said she only wanted a rinse. She took a small strand of black hair out to show me.

Another incident took place in a Mall when a Muslim woman was shouted at about the way she dressed: "Why don't you dress like everybody if you want to live here?" that woman was taken to court for discrimination against Muslims.

I think Canada is very Liberal with regards to integration of immigrants in Canadian society. Yet when Muslims will fight in court for the upholding of their own religious code which is linked to their laws, like inheritance, property and divorce laws, the Canadian Supreme Court will have a fight on their hands.

So far Muslims here are well tolerated. In the park in front of my house there are several Muslim families and the mothers come with their children while the men play soccer. I never saw Muslim women play sports as their main function is staying at home with their children.

It goes against our nature in America to see women mistreated and so unequal to men and we wish them to have a better life. Still Muslim women most likely don't want American women's so-called equal status.

Eloïse

my children knew of my position but were given the freedom at least from me to choose whatever they felt was right for them. one is a pagan believer although not a practicing one, and the other? She is a "now and then believer" as it works for her in her OA, or overeaters anon. program based on the twelve step program of AA, which required a belief in a HIGHER POWER.. I'm predjudiced against all religions which has made it hard for me to enjoy this discussion. the warfare between factions for instance. I feel like saying, what do you expect? religion creates discord more often than calming it. horrible stuff. . . . claire

I got a simple question. Why do we use the word "Tolerant" instead of "RESPECT"?

Seems to me that if we RESPECT the RIGHTS of other to CHOOSE then they in turn should RESPECT ours.

But being human, isn't there always a JOKER who wants total control over everything/everyone?

Robby, you say:"..I have come to the conclusion that there will be a bitter battle between Islam and Christianity....."

The Christians on one side, and Islam on the other,...and I am in the middle? Very dangerous indeed.

I like respect. I respected my childrens choices I didn't tolerate them. . . a whole different emotional setting

I'd have to agree with you Robby that war may be coming sooner rather than later between religions. I find it interesing how many times the world has gone to war in the name of religion.

There is time to stop this insanity. All we have to do is convince others that we are fighting for the same result. Balance and harmony are for all human beings living on Mother Earth. I bet if we put each religion side by side, we would find that somewhere in all of them they preach the necessity of balance and harmony within their religions. The problem is convincing others that in order to survive as a species we must come together; not be torn apart.

ELOISE - thanks for your warm welcome. I'm looking forwrd to participating in this discussion on a regular basis.

MAL - thanks for posting the NYT article. It will certainly be interesting to see how Canada handles the issue of Shariah law pertaining to Muslimas and whether the younger generation of Muslimas can encourage their elder female relatives to take advantage of arbitration. I have been involved (as a mentor and arbitrator) in numerous instances with Muslimas in the USA who are not aware of their civil rights, do not understand the complexities of the laws or how to contact a mediator, while at the same time assuring that they are not abused by male relatives. It's a complex issue since many of the women do not want to break away from their Islamic faith, but must shed some cultural traditions for their own safety (and sanity) and remove themselves from harm.

I hope that Canadian officials will become more informed about the various aspects of Shariah, interact regularly with Muslim legal scholars and come to a fuller understanding of how some aspects of Shariah can work beneficially for Muslims, while others need to be revised in contemporary culture.

Many practical issues - like a male inheriting more than a female - were established in times when men had full responsibility for the entire family and women did not work outside the home. That is no longer practical in contemporary times, even in an orthodox ISlamic society like Saudi Arabia, where there are numerous Saudi women in business (although they do not generally mix with men in the workplace, even if they are the owners of an organization).

The same applies to men being allowed in Islam to have up to 4 wives, if they can treat each one exactly the same. This was originally meant to protect women who had been widowed (especially those who had children)in times of war and was more of a need-based alowance, rather than one of sexual orientation (which is how the custom is viewed in the West).

Re child marriages to older men - IMO, they do not have any place in contemporary society, in any country, or for any reason. I'm surprised that Canada has NOT taken more of an aggressive approach to curtail such practices, but perhaps the silence of the participants is to blame in this case. Also the ignorance of the parents of the would-be brides and the lack of understanding about the emotional trauma that is the result of such unions.

Unfortunately, it is true that Muslimas are often kept in ignorance in the silence of their homes, depending on male relatives for any interaction with the society at large. This is an issue that is discused in depth among many of my women friends and one in which we have made great efforts to learn about women in these positions, to visit and to make sure that they are not being mistreated. Some women, surprisingly to a Western audience, simply follow tradition and are secure in their homes. They do not wish to face the complexities of life in North America - seen on TV or heard about from others. While other women, those who are perhaps better educated, more adventurous or have supportive male relatives, are quite willing to step into the midst of a new culture, learn new customs and expand their knowledge.

Again, to my mind, education is the key here. Not just formal education, but that found in small group discussions and with the encouragement of non-Muslims who will take the time to listen, answer questions, explain complex issues in basic ways and allow the women to develop (over a period) a comfort level. It takes time, but there are many dedicated young Muslimas who are working hard to create a better environment for their female relatives - and many older women (my age) are also striving to bring about a better understanding of the non-traditional ways to live in a new society.

It's a huge readjustment for women who have lived such sheltered lives and some may never be willing to make it, but here in the US we started out with something like it. women didn't own property or vote, they were chattel and content to be that way. . . it's hard to get past that , the inertia derived from being taken care of. women who are not of muslim background put up with abusive marriages because of it and for the sake f the children. govt. can only do so much to change ingrained cultural patterns. good luck with your good work. . . . claire

Thanks, Claire. You've pointed out some important considerations - that within the USA, women "born to the soil" and others from abroad have had to fight for their rights throughout our history. Newly arriving foreign women (or those from extremely conservative and traditional Muslim families), as well as a surprising number of American Muslim women are also in the throes of learning how to speak out, speak up and who they can turn to outside their family for assistance. I'm proud of the younger women whom I've known through the years who have worked hard - sometimes against the wishes of the men in their family - to make sure that their female relatives and friends are aware of their rights in North America.

Indeed there are several aspects of Western culture which foreign born Muslimas are simply not interested in - the lax morals and values (as they are often perceived or misunderstood by these women), sexual prosmiscuity, sexually suggestive styles of dress adn language, etc. And for many of these women, they are NOT accustomed to the freedom to move around outside their homes - driving, shopping, doing errands, etc., which puts them on the streets with hurrying crowds of Americans (many of whom don't even realize that in their hurry they may brush against or inadvertantly touch a Muslima as they pass on the street). True, these women have been sheltered - sometimes in a good way, but often in a manner which simply does not prepare them for life in North America. I have often counseled with the wives of Muslim students (many of whom are in a fragile psychological state), trying to explain that they need not subject themselves to the societal differences if they truly cannot deal with it. Sometimes they are comforted; often they are not; and in a few cases, the women returned to their home countries. When I served as a cultural liaison officer at a Middle East mission in Washington, DC, several women were brought to my attention and we ultimately arranged for them to return to their home countriers.

However, it goes a long way to help these women (and others, as well as men and youth) to have non-Muslims interact with them in a friendly way, talk to them, answer questions, invite them to their homes (including both husband and wife and children), and generally take the first step or three to help the Muslimas adjust to life in North America. Surprisingly, men also often have problems assimilating into our culture, so a helping, friendly hand to them is also most welcome.

MALIA: I admire your efforts. As a society, the problem seems to me trickier. If I was a Canadian lawmaker, how would I balance two principles I hold important: tolerance for others' beliefs and the right of women for self-determination? Surely, if Moslem men (and some women) are forced to follow practices they don't believe or understand, this cannot be right. And yet, socially, can we stand by and watch the abuses of the weak by the strong that can sometimes ensue.

Other groups of immigrants from traditional non-moslem countries have faced similiar issues. A friend who worked with Vietnamese immegrants told me that the suicide rate among elderly Vietnamese men was very high. They felt worthless and lot, as they saw their traditional place as the head of the family being undermined. This was a case where the issues were not complicated by growing enmities and hatreds. Moslems, I fear, will have a much worse time.

The international issues are on a different level. I believe that many Moslem's feel that Moslem countries will always be treated as second class citizens in the community of nations. I'm afraid there is much evidence to support that idea. The enmities roused by the conflict in the Middle East and it's fallout color everything in that area and make it hard to look at anything dispassionatly (certainly for me as a former resident of Israel). But there are many other issues involved that need this dispassionate view.

Often war is waged only in order to show valor; thus an inner dignity is ascribed to war itself, and even some philosophers have praised it as an ennoblement of humanity, forgetting the pronouncement of the Greek who said, "War is an evil in as much as it produces more wicked men than it takes away."

-Immanuel Kant, philosopher (1724-1804)

A Nigerian's comment on RELIGIOUS FUNDAMENTALISM.

Robby

As we look at cultures different from ours, I wonder if the best answer is to be FEARED OR LOVED?

Robby

Robby, "Someday there will be a bitter battle between Christianity and Islam." Someday? The battle is on right now as we speak. It may not be precisely between Islam and Christianity, but there is one raging between radical Islam and Western Civilization.

September 11, 1991: The United States was attacked by an organization that purports to represent Islam in its purest form. It was an act of war! More Americans were killed in that sneak attack than were killed at Pearl Harbor. We refer to Dec 7, 1941 as "A Day of Infamy" The policticaly correct refer to the more egregeous sneak attack of Sept 11,1991 as merely a "tragedy." An earthquake is a tragedy, a forest fire is a tragedy. The intentional slaughter of thousands of innocents is an act of war.

We are at war right now. Today. There are many Americans who can't accept that and talk about "understanding" and "tolerance." It's a good thing these people were not in charge when Hitler was slaughtering Jews as fast as he could. Maybe we should have held back on landing in Normandy and spent more time "understanding" and "tolerating" the NAZIs.

There are those who, meaning well, try to minimize their perception of the threat by saying that Al Quida and others represent only a small segment of Islam. I agree with that to some extent, but I am gravely disappointed by the tepid denunciations of the terrorist attacks by Muslim leaders around the world, especially in North America.

Muslims flow into the streets in swarms shaking their fists and burning American, British, and Israeli flags if a westerner does or says ANYTHING that may in any way offend their religious sensibilities. Why then, if Al Quida has hijacked their religion,(the ultimate sacrilege) are muslims not swarming into the streets, shaking their fists, and burning effigies of Osama Bin Laden?

Today, two leaders of a mosque (one the mosque imam) in Albany NY, were arrested on charges of conspiracy to purchase a ground to air missle. These missles can be used to shoot down commercial airliners.

We SOMEDAY may be at war?

Rich

I admire you courage, RICH. I think the battle between these two factions-religions goes back before the Crusades.

Immediately after September 11, 2001 I accessed the Qu'ran -- God's word to Mohammed -- to see if I could understand this religion a little. What I came away with was the fact that it would take years for me to do it.

My question is this: If we make a genuine effort to live peaceably with Islam by trying to understand it and the people who believe it, are Muslims going to do the same? I mean, are they going to try to understand Christianity, Judaism, and other religious factions that are not Islam and make an effort to live peaceably with them, too? I'm tired of making me, my country and Western civilization the guilty ones here.

Mal

Rich, I agree with you, the battle is on right now, and this battle is different from conventional war. It is a battle on the “home front”. Look at the security measures in Washington right now. It has been said that 9-11 was a retaliation for the USA supporting Israel against the Palestinians. I believe there is more to it. Remember what happened at the Balkan, former Yugoslavia,Muslims and Christians slaughtering each other; and it is happening now in some States in the Soviet Union, and the Moscow bombings.

Mal:"...I mean, are they going to try to understand Christianity,....."

It may be too late for this now.

as I heard defined by REAL muslims is a peaceful religion. I don't understand why there should be a battle with the real thing. . . . only the terroreests who are not truely muslims

Rich, your post is very moving and I can feel your frustration. I feel the same way too and it seems that the West is bending over backward in trying to be more tolerant, more understanding of the differences between our lifestyle and theirs. You are right, the US didn't waste time trying to understand and tolerate the Nazis, they came to Europe's defense even if they had just lost so much in helping them in WW1.

I agree with you that even today in Afghanistan and Irak, the US is still showing patience in spite of hostage taking and threats by 'the other side'. This war we have right now is fought blindfolded because some terrorists live right here inside our borders.

My grandson's best friend is a Muslim child. I have Muslim neighbors, I buy groceries from their store. They speak my language, they were born and raised in Montreal. It is impossible that all Muslims belong to terrorist organization, there are over one billion of them.

This war that we are fighting is not taking place on land or about land like they were fought before. The refined weaponry that any country can use now to attack an enemy, be it nuclear, biological, or military seems to already have become obsolete. It has gone beyond that. It is a war on ideology, and that cannot be seem even from space, it is within the hearts of the people, it had been implanted in each our own culture a long, long time ago.

I think American and Canadian governments are doing everything in their power to keep the peace while still keeping a strong defense. More that than, it would be all out war and I don't think anyone wants that.

Eloïse

Rich and Hubert:-When you say the war is on now, that is no way near to what I am envisioning. I am talking about World War III. I am talking about high technology and nuclear activity on both sides. What is happening now is a small bunch of skirmishes or a bomb blast here and there.
I am talking about entire cities being destroyed. I am talking about the possibility that Islam may win. I am talking about cultures absorbing other cultures.
No, I am not talking about Armegeddon heralding the end of the earth. The earth, in my opinion, will continue but there will be radical changes such that I am glad that I will not be present to see them.

Robby

Excerpt from Muslim Population Statistics:
"If the west's population is top-heavy, (i.e., the ratio of youth to elderly is low) that of Muslim populations is the opposite. For example, today more than half the population of Algeria is under the age of twenty and this situation is similar elsewhere. These young populations will reproduce and perpetuate the increase of Muslims on a percentage basis well into the next millennium.

"North America and Europe have increasingly aging populations and one of the most disturbing social issues of the new millennium will concern a more efficient means of disposing of the elderly. (For example, witness the new euthanasia laws in the Netherlands, and the ongoing debate in many countries about this issue.) Medical advances can assure an average life span in the high seventies, although active life spans have not grown as fast. In the early 1900s, a westerner could expect to spend an average of the last two years of life as an invalid. Today, that figure is seven years.
"As Ivan Illich has shown, medicine prolongs life, but can not prolong mobility nearly as well. Aging populations with their increased healthcare costs are considered a more extensive socio-economic burden to society. For example, the UK Department of Health recently announced that a new prescription drug for Alzheimer's Disease was available on the National Health Service - but its cost meant that it was only available to a small minority of patients.

"An aging population tends to be introspective and sluggish, whereas a young population is more likely to be vibrant and energetic. This may or may not bode well for many countries and that will depend on whether their political structure is fragile or not. "
Take all their emotions, their passion, their youth, their blind obedience, their implicit faith -- and add nuclear capability. Place that against our aging population, our weakening Christianity, our tendency to "think about it." Look at the age of our Senators and other leaders. What is the age of Al-Sadr?
The war is not quite ready to start. Give it another 25 years -- more babies to increase the size of their armies, more Fundamentalist schools to teach their culture and beliefs, more fiery sermons to fill the powder kegs of hate -- then wait for the match to be lit.
Think of Sarajevo just before World War I.
PEACE everyone!!

Robby

Robby, I agree with your post # 142, in particular: ”........... I am talking about cultures absorbing other cultures....”

Now we have to fit in China also.

China will be on "our" side. They will be very much capitalistic by the time the war begins.

Robby

I keep waiting to see how the Arab and Asian Muslim fundamentalists (i.e. terrorists)will approach the Chinese Muslims in the Western portion of the country and begin to incite them to rebel against the Chinese government and the West, downplaying the importance of capitalism and any mention of future freedom in business and communities. The Chinese Uiger communities are especially vulnerable, as they interact with the Muslim communities in the 'Stans of the former USSR, which are more and more coming under the influence of the Muslim fundamentalists.

ROBBY - your comments could very easily be understood as a description of the founding of the former Ottoman Empire (minus the contemporary threats of nuclear, chemical and biological warfare).

In the upcoming war (decades from now), what side will CHINA be on?

Robby

Robby, I tried to click on your CHINA reference and got a screen calling for me to sign up for NY Times on line. Fine, I answered all their questions, clicked on the "register" button and got the screen I started with, with all of the questions blank once again. Has anyone else had this problem with NY Times registration, or am I just doing something stupid?

To Robby's question, China is rapidly becomming an industrial giant. In fact, the principal reason why gasoline costs so much at the pump these days is that much of the fuel that was available to the old industrialized nations is being diverted to China to feed their burgeoning need for energy. Growing economies need to develop markets for their products hence the need to establish closer international relationships. This is a healthy thing for China and world peace.

Having said that, there is an issue that could send us to war with China tomorrow:-Taiwan. China insists that Taiwan is a part of China. They are unbending on that issue. Occasionally they threaten to just go in and take it over regardless of world opinion. If China chose to do so, there is probably nothing the world could do to stop them. China knows that. We need something like a "Hong Kong" solution for Taiwan to avoid a conflict that nobody wants, but may be unavoidable.

Got a call from my library, yesterday, telling me that my Volume Four of "The Story of Civilization" is being held for me. Looking forward to reading it.

Rich

I don't know if we are fortunate in this forum to have learned about past civilizations because now we can predict the future. We have seen several civilizations come and go, especially how violently they go, how each one was obliterated, destroyed until nothing remained and from the ashes of an old prosperous civilization, rose another one.

We would have to be blind not to notice the warning signs, they are all so blatantly displayed.

There is nothing and no one to blame and I am sure that most people are peaceful citizens, but most of us are not in a position to make the decisions that will affect our future. Even if we dutifully vote, did it ever make a difference? Hitler was voted in power, Lenin, Stalin, Mao, but when we vote, do we know what decisions will be taken that we are not in agreement with?

To win a war today you need money more than manpower and when China has the money it seems to me that they would make an alliances with a neighboring country, not somebody half way across the world. If Russia and China were united, nothing would stand in their way. Beware of sleeping giants.

Eloïse

I think you should be writing sci fi books. . ..you have a very active imagination. No I don't think there is going to be a war involving our christian population. Less and less interest int he church as a spiritual outlet, more social I think. they don't really care enough and uslims are inherently peaceful.

Cultures clash, sometimes for power, religion and/or greed. The desires of one man to rule above all others is very corruptive.

IMO, when the time comes, CHINA will be on CHINA'S side, regardless of whether or not the Western countries maintain good relations or not. I'm also inclined to agree that China will look for neighboring partnerships, rather than alienate them for the sake of strong relations with the West. China has been enormously aggressive in developing its core businesses - Chinese capitalism is alive and well, heading at a very fast pace into the future, and maintaining strong relations with Hong Kong businesses who left the island and re-established themselves in the Western USA. The special US visa offered to foreign businesses wishing to invest in the USA and establish branches (or relocate their headquarters) was a definite boon to China's interests. Representatives (often 4th and 5th generation)from the well established tongs in Hong Kong, Shanghai and Macao are equally successful in Seattle and San Francisco. I'm not familiar with Canadian laws regarding this topic, but I imagine that Canada offers a similar incentive to foreign businesses.

Mahlia, CANADA-CHINA TRADING PARTNERS" and from this link,

"• China (not including Hong Kong) is Canada’s third largest national trading partner, after the United States and Japan, and Canada’s fourth largest export market after the United States, Japan and the United Kingdom. Trade between Canada and China increased 17.9 percent from $16.9billion in 2001 to $19.9 billion in 2002. The same year, China became Canada’s second largest import market, displacing Japan’s long held position. Imports from China were valued at $15.98 billion, an increase of 25.6percent over 2001 figures and representing 4.6percent of Canada’s total imports.

I actually see a world similar to the one described in "1984". I believe we are slowly giving up all our freedoms and once this is done we will have little to fight for. I can see it happening sooner rather than later.

ELOISE - Thanks for the link. I was aware that China is one of Canda's strongest trading partners; I just didn't know whether special business visas were offered to potential investors or not.

One of the first things I learned when we relocated to North Carolina last month was that the Ports of North Carolina have a very strong partnership with China, based on the interest and initiative of one of the Chinese professors at the Univ. of NC Charlotte. There is also an Asian Chamber in the City of Charlotte's Chamber of Commerce and a strong focus on Asia among the local Charlotte businesses.

There is not anyone here or anywhere else who can predict the future. Doomsayers since Henny Penny have been saying the sky is falling, and the world they know is going to end. Armageddon has been predicted by various religions thousands of times.

Did anyone predict Kennedy's assassination? Did anyone predict 9/11? Did anyone predict the advent of AIDS? Did anyone predict that one week a tree would fall, out of the blue, on my son's car, and the next week he'd be in the hospital for emergency kdiney surgery?

There are all these sophisticated weapons. There's a terrorist guerilla type war going on all over the world. But that plague nobody ever heard of, which will strike millions and billions and kill them all off, will get us in the end. That's what my sister said years ago. Maybe she's right? And that, folks, is as much as we know.

I, for one, am not going to go around predicting that the world will end when I do, or that it will end when my great great great grandchildren are around, either. Because, clues or no clues, nobody knows.

Mal

I have a dream (excuse my plagiarizing).
I have a dream that all the participants in The Story of Civilization met face to face and had a long week-end in some comfortable lounge somewhere -- that there was no agenda and that we spent those three days talking to our heart's content.

Robby

I think it's called a BASH. pick a good spot, cheap, acsessable and comfortable next to an all you eat buffet. . . food and drink as well as comfortable chairs and quiet. . .I think I might go to that one and I don't usually do BASHES.

ROBBY, let's do it!

Mal

If we ever should do such a thing, let it be known that I would be just one of the participants spouting out in a way I don't ordinarily do.

Robby

Robby, we're already talking to our hearts' content. Do we need to be in the same room to communicate with each other? The wonder of the Internet is that all these minds from all over the world can make contact. It's a miracle.

As for the problem of aging populations, I think euthanasia will have to be legalized eventually. Nobody wants to become a useless vegetable. I told my daughter one time, "If I become a vegetable, I want you to put a pillow over my head and put me out of my misery." She said, "Mom I couldn't do it." Then I thought, "I have a gun, but I don't shoot very well, so I'm afraid to use it." I personally would like to believe that I could put an end to my life in some decent, legal way when I decide I've lived long enough. That sounds like a civilized solution to me.

Shasta:-It was just an idle thought.

Robby

SHASTA, before you get yourself pillowized, I'll tell you talking like this and talking face to face with Robby Iadeluca and Eloise de Pelteau just ain't the same thing. I found that out last May at the Virginia Bash, first one I ever attended.

I think a Story of Civilization mini-Bash would be great. Let's get JUSTIN and CLAIRE here to NC from California and everybody else from wherever they live. If we hold it here in oh-so-intellectual Chapel Hill, I'll make all the arrangements, and we can talk about anything and everything right on my deck!

Mal

I'm applying RIGHT NOW for the position of Mal's Logistical Assistant, since I'm now in North Carolina, too. I'm great at behind-the-scenes logistical tasks and would LOVE to see a Story of Civilization Bash in Chapel Hill. And indeed it is really more fun to meet folks face-to-face. I had the pleasure of meeting Robby in Washington DC, as well as many of the participants in the Books discussion groups.

Now Mal that's a dandy idea and you can count me in if you are organizing a Bash for our group, I would love to see you again. It's a wonderful idea Mal. Chapel Hill in North Carolina here we come.

And we will let Robby do his "spouting out in a way I don't ordinarily do" and see what he comes up with.

Eloïse

Participants in the Ancient Greece Olympics competed in the nude. Check out this ARTICLE to see what they wore in the various Olympic games through the years.

Robby

Mal, I'd do my very best to get to Chapel Hill!

The Smithsonian magazine had a great article about the early Olympiads and their competing in the nude. It stripped everybody of their social class and they competed all "oiled" up with the dark curls flowing in the breeze. It was a great article that gave a history of the Olymics from its onset. Did you know that Nero bribed the judges and they accommodated him, awarding him the "olive branch" in a "chariot" race event, even though he fell out of the bloody carriage and never made the final destination point?

ALF:-It's always good to have you visit us here!
Yes, Durant did tell us about Nero receiving an award which he did not earn. As I recall it, he did not need to bribe them. They knew what side their bread was buttered on.

Robby

If SoCers want to meet at the southern Spas of the Dead Sea in Ein Guedi, in the style and atmosphere of decadent Rome, please say so and you will be accomodated!
Bubble

Oh, how I would love to!! I remember Ein Guedi fondly. But my budget wouldn't be so happy.

Has anyone here ever heard of SOCIAL CHRISTIANITY?

Robby, this article reads like the origin of the “Born Again” sector. Evangelism, personal conversion & salvation , anti-Catholicism with emphasis on biblical studies echoes that to me.

I can’t help but agree with Mr. Roesenbusch and MLK that without social conscience and the implications of its effects, we are all doomed with any religious conviction we might hold.

Thanks for the welcome Robby. The article on the Olympics also mentioned that " married women were forbidden to attend, although unmarried women and girls were allowed in the stands." I found that interesting and also that the 10 judges in indigo robes and garlands of flowers took up their places half way down the track, as the herald cried " apete-- go!"

As I mentioned this article was discussing politics and corruption (no different in todays world) and I quote- "In A.D. 67, they accepted the hefty bribes from the Roman emperor Nero, awarding him first prize in the chariot race- notwithstanding that he fell out of his vehicle and failed to complete the course."

I found it interesting that the marathon was only added in 1896 and the torch added at Hitler's 1936 Olympic game in Berlin.

ALF:-Can I take it for granted that you will join us in discussing Durant's fourth volume, "The Age of Faith," when we start in September?
P.S. Do you remember when we took that html course together with Jane as our tutor?

Robby

hahaha every time I see your Robby name at the bottom of your post , I smile. I bet I would not be able to do that again (at least alone.)

I'm going to give it a shot joining in on your "Age of Faith," Robby. I follow your discussion faithfully but life has been hectic this summer. I shall be in my new house shortly and when I "settle in" I can spend more time with you.

You're right, ALF. I learned how to make that tri-color signature from Jane. I save the code to use. If I ever lose it, I will have to go screaming to Jane to find out how to create it again!
For those who don't know Andy (ALF), she is a very competent nurse.

Robby

Our very own Nurse Rachitt! I've known this lady since she wandered into AOL. In fact, she may not remember, but I gave her a hand with html quite a few years ago. That was before she bounced over here to Books and Lit and started telling people they had to swallow their bitter and sweet pills or else! There aren't any panaceas with Ratchitt around, that's for sure! She gives it to you straight-no-chaser, and if you don't like it, watch out!

Actually, I think she's great. Watch your mail, Andrea, and be sure to give me your email address when it changes. You and all the rest of the intrepid SOC-ers are going to be getting an invitation in your mailbox from me very soon.

(I just found out her name isn't Rachitt or Ratchitt, it's Ratched.)

Mal

I swear, I don't ever remember being in AOL. I thought that I came right away into SNet. Oh well, what the he** did I know at that time when I'd been about 10 minutes in front of a computer. I was ready to tackle anything and anyone to read I do remember. Yes, I do remember you telling me about using "write" or notepad to correspond. Now, heck I'm an old trooper.

As far as Nurse Ratchett, I thought I'd pretty much lost my push around attitude until a recent memrial service for bill's Uncle who recently passed away. His cousin was sitting and talking with me and I asked him what was all over his face. He assured me that it was hives or some kind of reaction to his mowing the lawn a week ago. I assure him that he was mistaken that her had herpes Zoster and by tomorrow or the next day he's be loaded with the shingles, spreading unfortunately into his eye. His wife told me No that i was mistaken and I dug my heals in. The next morning she called me and told me that the pain had gotten more severe, he went to the ER and was diagnosed with herpes Zoster (shingles) as I had said. She said if I hadn't spoken up he would still be sitting at home, moaning. so I guess, once an outspoken nurse, always it shall remain. Now Mal panaceas, please!!!! There is no such thing.

When you go to the beach, how do you determine where you will place the blanket? Did you ever pause to think that this relates to HISTORY?

Robby

there's our mentor, Robby.

How I love this "You are a grain of sand, a drop in the sea of humanity. You don't need some fancy rational strategy. Be the blanket. Let the space choose you. Get over yourself."

Oh how I wish I had said that.

ALF, You must be so anxious to move into your new house. Last year I stayed for a month at my daughter's while they were doing my apartment upstairs. You will have more time for us you say? Wonderful. And I thought that Nurse Ratchett a cute name they were calling you and I thought here was something I had never heard in English. Ah! well I learn something every day. My nurse daughter also gives good advice and I always listen to her.

In the summer the beaches in the South of France are full of nude bathers, we are the only ones who find this a strange practice. The French say we are Prude Americans or Canadians. I was told that the beach towels in the summer all touch one other, it is so crowded.

Eloïse

See? Jane is watching us all the time. I have never figured out how she observes all those other discussions all over the Senior Net and yet manages to get back to Story of Civilization just in time to move us onto the next 1000 posts.

Robby

I don't find nude bathing strange.

Robby

I don't find nude bathing strange or uncomfortable. However, when you're 25- 30 pounds overweight as I am, I would just rather be clothed. What a beach party we'd have "sit around and watch eah other JIGGLE!"

When I was a Boy Scout we swam nude all week except for Sunday which was visitors' day. About 15 years ago I went to a nudist camp in Maryland twice and spent the day swimming in the nude in their wonderful pool. There is a section of beach in Virginia where nude bathing is unofficially accepted, and I used to stroll down from the clothed section to the nude section, strip down, and enjoy nude swimming in the ocean. If the Ancient Greeks could do it, why can't I?

Robby

Mmmm... do we need to watch? I'd take pleasure in sit, chat, and have some cold drink together. Isn't that what you had in mind, Mal? Clothing is just such a small detail...

Bubble

You never know who's watching...hoooo...;0)
I'm packing for a vacation. Have a good "rest of August" everyone!

I think Jane lurks here all year long. She won't admit it but as a former teacher, she can't resist this intriguing discussion group.

Robby

chapal hill sunds fine. now I have to figure out how to get there from southern CA. . . fall colors? when do you suppose. we have a group already, shouldn't take long to decide. . . . . claire

Diana Nyad is the long-distance swimming champion, having in 1979 swum 102 miles from Florida to the Bahamas. She is currently a National Public Radio sports commentator.
She has been following the Olympics for years and for the last seven years has been observing the Greeks as they make their preparations for this summer. She says that in the earlier years they were spending much time in drinking, dancing, and singing and practically no building. Now they are behind time.
Does anyone think this is similar to the philosophy of the Ancient Greeks?

Robby

U2 Alf? We should be moving into our new digs at the end of September. Sure is looking nice. Cabinets are in but fixtures and stuff not in yet.

did bacchus rule the games or . . . . .was all that drinking and dancing a celebration or an offering?

The philosophy of the ancient Greeks? Which one? Sounds like they've gone from Stoicism to Hedonism.

In this forum we might want to keep in mind that Durant is moving us along in primarily White Civilization. This ARTICLE emphasizes that as Civilization moves along, Yellow culture is affecting Black Culture.

Robby

Were the ANCIENT OLYMPIC GAMES dark, rough, and brutal? Were the goals Victory or Death? Was there something Durant didn't tell us?

Robby

Well, isn't that disgusting? I've been registered with the NY Times for years. Today the site won't recognize me even when I change my registration. I didn't clean out my cookies or anything, so what's the problem?

Wonder if they're mad because I registered with the LA Times?

Mal

They admire those at the LA Times. It's your recent subscription to the Boston Globe that has ticked them off.

Loud laughter here, ANDY. No, that's not what it is, either. It's because I absolutely refuse to become a Yankees fan. I mean I've been a Red Sox fan since I was in grammar school. At one time I liked the Boston Braves, too, but they moved out of Beantown and lost my fanship forever!

The only no hitter I ever saw was when Vern Bickford pitched one for the Boston Braves. It was ho-hum boring for me at the time, and I couldn't understand why my Uncle Bob was so tense until the end of the ninth inning. Then he explained how momentous that accomplishment was. I much preferred seeing Teddy Williams or Dom Dimaggio hit one over the fence at Fenway Park. Carl Yaztremski had my allegiance years later. (So did whacky Jimmy Piersall.) Wish I could remember all the reknowned Yankees I used to see, but I was concentrating so hard on my team that I don't remember.

Whaddaya mean I shouldn't talk about baseball in here? I thought this was the Sports Discussion ! Okay, if you say so. Give me something lofty to chew on then, will ya?

Mal

You've got me pegged, though, ANDY. No matter how long I live away from New England, I'm a New England Yankee through and through.

Whaddaya mean you thought they were all prim Puritans?

Mal

You say it's "renowned", not "reknowned"? I've been spelling that word wrong all these years? It's just like degradation. My head insists on telling me it's "degredation." Oh, well.

Mal

A Red Sox fan. I knew there was something amiss with you.

A damn Yankee fan

Can't you two exist together in a CIVILIZED way?

Robby

Mmmmmm you mean we've reached civilization, Robby?

Maybe not, Bubble. Maybe one or more participants are trying to start a fire as pictured in the Heading above.

Robby

civilization isn't a single entity experienced by one people. our world maybe getting smaller but it is still very deverse and after all, what is civilization. . . . or have we decided that already . . . in here. . . . claire

as a substitute for ACTING OUT or MEHAM.. . I was interested when at college and the cross town school was USC and I was at UCLa and the game was just the introduction to a PARTY. . . and I watched tennis matches when married to a tennis buff, but now I have little interest in sports. . . certainly not baseball.....boring. . . . I'd rather keep track of what the terrorists might be doing . . ACTING OUT in the real world. . .. . sports=a place to get rid of socially unacceptab agression.

as to nudity. yep I like it. infact my condo is private and I hardly ever bother to dress. It's also pretty warm. I used to have a pool which was nice to use nude, especially at night, but now I have a community pool and there are rules ....a dress code yet. sometimes I wondeer why we bother. . . . Claire

MAL: I used to love to watch Ted Williams, too. Unfortunately, he was on the other team -- I was a Washington Senators fan. I didn't mind that he beat us, EVERYONE beat us. I didn't mind, unless it was those D--- YANKEES. Oh, how we hated them! When the book, and then the musical came out, it was the story of our life. We would all have sold our soul to the devil for the Senators to win the pennant!!(They finally did, but only after they became the Minnasota Twins).

The last year I was in DC I went to fifteen games and they lost all fifteen. I stopped going to games.

In my mind Red Socks were always DES CHAUSSETTES ROUGES and somehow it just didn't strike me as if it could be a baseball team. "What golf ball are you using" a man once asked on a golf course, meaning what make. "A white one", I said. He put his arm around my shoulder and shook his head hopelessly.

That is know how much I know about sports. I only tried golf once.

Eloïse

GOLF

I tried golf
even took lessons
practiced at the driving range
hit the mat
hit the mat
hit the mat
tennis elbow
playing golf?

I coldn't hold a coffee cup for nine months. I gave up on golf. . . . claire

Des Chausettes Rouges. Now, I like that. Thank you, ELOISE.

JOAN, I saw the Senators more than once, that's for sure. You know what they say about the Red Sox, don't you? "Always a bridesmaid, never a bride."

Even with my gick leg, I played baseball when I was a kid. I could hit and catch the ball, and someone was always willing to run for me.

Before I had polio I was a very active kid, always climbing trees or jumping out of the loft of a barn into a pile of hay. I took dancing lessons, which my aunt paid for, and never failed to skin my knees the day before a recital because I was happily jumping around. My aunt became very, very upset with me, and would say to my mother, "Dot! Can't you keep this child better than you do? She'll disgrace me up on the stage tonight!" She was more interested in how I looked than how I danced. I was pretty good at that, too. I rode a bicycle after the polio. The only trouble was, I couldn't stop and get off the bike unless I fell off. That was a bit of a problem.

Doing athletics is good! Makes you feel good. One of the worst things possible for a person like me, who is full of energy, is sitting around all the time.

If those dunderheads at the UNC brace shop ever get their act together and make my new brace I'm going to feel a whole lot better than I have. Dunderheads? Yeah. They sent me my old brace, which I had left with them, the measurements they did and all their paperwork; then called me up three weeks later to ask if I had any idea where the stuff was. Do you believe that? I'm still fuming about it

Excuse me. I have to go hit my punching bag for a few minutes.

Mal

Mal is not the only Red Sox fan!!!!!

Three cheers for MOXIE et des Chausettes Rouges! I wonder if RICH is a Red Sox fan, too?

Mal

Am I the only one here cheering for the Brooklyn Dodgers?

Robby

DES CHAUSSETTES ROUGES, or BROOKLYN DODGERS ? Ain't anyone here heard of the ALL BLACKS ? Maybe I'm from a more advanced civilization ? But then when I see some of the things that happen on a RUGBY field, I sometimes wonder....=== Trevor

Leo Durocher and dem bums! I don't know anything about Rugby, TREVOR, but how about them Mets? Yes, I read about the ALL BLACKS over in the Australia folder.

Mal

Olympic Baseball History

ROBBY: you may or may not be cheered to know that my son-in-law is a fanatic LOS ANGELES Dodger fan (I may get to a game while I'm out there). So much so, he wanted to name his first son after Vince Scully, their announcer who was also their announcer when they were in Brooklyn.

Scaling with the help of a strong rope only on a straight towering rocky mountain wall, a deep abyss with a rushing torrent down below, around your head a swarm of bees suspicious of your every move, all this for just a taste of wild honey... now that is real sport! Go to Borneo to see it!

The announcer I knew was Red Barber.

Robby

Speaking of sports, how are things going for the OLYMPIC GAMES which are about to begin?

Robby

Click HERE to see the gradual changing of the Olympics from Ancient Greece through the Roman era through Medieval times up to today.

Robby

I remember our own Olympic Games in 1976 when Romanian's Nadia Comaneci, 4 foot 11, 86 pounds, got the first perfect score of 10.0 in gymnastics. The work on the infrastructure was delayed by all sorts of labor strikes and structural problems in the buildings, but in the end it gave a boost to the beautification of Montreal. The cost was horrendous, but the lasting effect resulting from having it being held in Montreal is ample compensation.

Eloïse

Robby keeps inserting goodies for us to click on, and when I do I find myself on a page asking me to sign up for the New York Times.

So I fill out the form, click on enter, and the same page comes up again with all the slots in which I made entries empty again.

I know I'm missing a lot of good stuff. Does anyone have any suggestions as to what I may be doing wrong?

By the way, good morning to all you Durant aficionados.

Rich

RICH, I just asked you in WREX if you'd been able to access the Times, and the answer is here. I am still not able to get on that website, despite re-registering. The same thing that's happening to you is happening to me. I'm a creature of habit, especially early in the morning, and not having the Times available is very annoying. Wish there was a way to write to their webmaster about this, but I can't find one.

Mal

Rich I used to have lots of problems with signing in, somehow it got resolved, but unfortunately I don't remember how. I suggest sending them an email to ask for help. You have to read every line very carefully, making sure nothing was omitted. They could at least tell you what the signing in problem is instead of just erasing everything.

Eloïse

I don't know how to answer that question. I registered with the NY Times about 3-4 years ago and it has never left me. Occasionally they have asked me to give my password so it is important to remember that.

Robby

"You know what the ancient Greek athletes reportedly ate to enhance their performances?

"Sheep testicles.

"That's right, a taste of that delicacy was said to raise the testosterone level of the boxers, wrestlers, bull-jumpers or anybody else in ancient times who had the nerve to let that pass his lips.

"Sheep testicles, baby. That and strychnine reduced with a little bit of wine. The International Herald Tribune carried a story last week that told of the 1904 marathon winner, Thomas Hicks, needing four physicians to revive him after his victory because he had a little strychnine to go with his brandy and passed out."

Source:

Olympics article, Washington Post

News about the Olympics from the Athens News

Athens 2004, the International Herald Tribune

Mal, would sheep testicles be considered doping today?

Eloise, that delicious tidbits served as grilled shishliks (on wooden skewers) in all the Yemenite restaurants around the shouk in Tel Aviv.

I've given up on the times,have a nice easy link to the wahsington post...as for the olympics, like the gymnastics best and in the winter the ice scaters... .

In some parts of the country that strength-giving delicacy is called Mountain or Prairie Oysters.

Where I came from they're called Lamb Fries. I've eaten them, fried in butter and served on toast. I don't like them much because they remind me of mushrooms, which I don't care much for either.

ELOISE, I doubt very much whether there is a test to see if anyone has eaten Lamb Fries, though in this age of technological semi-miracles, I suppose there is.

Mal

Re accessing the NY Times: Send an email to customer service at help@nytimes.com. I had trouble also, though I too had subscribed to the online NYT for some time. They immediately emailed me with a new password, and all is well now for me though I do not use it much.

The paper is no longer objective with too many political opinions well beyond the editorial page, especially on the front page. I just do not trust it any more, even though I know the writing excells.

Hope this helps those having access problems.

FAKI, Thanks for the tip. That's what I'll do.

Also, I agree with you on the editorial page of the NY Times insinuating itself onto the front page as news.

Rich

MORE about the Olympics.

Robby

Why Eloise, they're just good old mountain oysters. Only the Greeks had sheep in their mountains instead of calves.

I've changed my NY Times password four different times since Sunday, and I'm still locked out of that website. Biased or not, it's still one of my favorite newspapers. My day isn't complete without it, since I read it for years and years in quite a few different states where I lived before I ever had a computer with a modem so I could see it on the web.

Mal

Well, I can't sleep, so came in here to talk to air.

I did manage to access the Times last night at last. On the Olympics site there is a link to photographs of Greece taken by several different photographers, which I enjoyed.

I also watched "Bend it with Beckham" on TV last night. It's an interesting movie that is not just about a young woman who worships David Beckham and playing soccer, but is about the culture differences between middle class English people and Indians living in England, especially one particular Sikh family. The film was like a ballet in one respect, with the soccer playing alternating with the celebration of an Indian wedding. The movie reminded me a little of Bollywood movies I've seen where the plot goes along, and then everything is interrupted by long scenes of what can sometimes be to a westerner quite amusing singing and dancing.

If you haven't seen a Bollywood movie, made, of course, in India, you should try to see one. The only trouble with them is that they are often very, very long.

That's what I did last evening along with reformatting and editing one of my books. All of this activity made me think. One of the things I thought about is that in this life there must be room for entertainment. That's how most of us will watch the Olympics, you know -- as entertainment. I wonder how many of us regard this very serious discussion as diversion from ordinary, humdrum, often stressful life, and even a kind of entertainment?

Mal

I enjoyed Bend it with Beckam too, although I had trouble understanding what some of the characters were saying. Now that I have a DVD player, I sometimes rent movies from England and watch them with subtitles: I have trouble understanding the accents.

I certainly find the discussions here fill my need for entertainment -- I usually go online in the evenings while my husband watches TV. But I hope they do more than that! They give a breadth of interest, learning, and social contact to a life that has narrowed due to restrictions on physical activity. They also force my mind to work: the one thing I miss from my job now that I am retired.

They also give me something to do on nights like this when I just can't sleep. It's nice to know someone else is awake. LOL

Great! Maybe If I go out on the deck, my husbannd will serenade me. (The neighbors would probably throw rotten eggs)

"They (these discussions) give a breadth of interest, learning, and social contact to a life that has narrowed due to restrictions on physical activity. They also force my mind to work."

There are some of us nuts who call that entertainment!

(Still, it's nice to have room for Bollywood-type song and dance and laughter in those odd moments. I don't think people laugh enough, especially at themselves.)

Mal

ROBBY if you're up:Vince Scully took over broadcasting for the Dodgers in 1953, when Red Barber left. He's broadcast for them ever since in Brooklyn and then LA and is still going strong. I'll hear him when I go to LA at the end of the month.

Oh carissima Mal, tanto amore qui!

I am registered Roman by birth... but I have never been to Rome. one of my deepest regrets.

Quanti canzoni, quanto romanzas, i Festivale di San Remo... La Ouiggua, Guarda che Luna, Piangeri oer Te, Che m'imprta del Mondo, Canzone per Te, Io sono il Vento, Quando quando, Zingara... Thank you for reminding me of that kind of entertainment.

Scroll about a third of the way down on this to hear:

O SOLO MIO

Here's what we should listen to right now, not Roman but Greek. Click below.

CLIOTIS

WOW Thanks Joan, this page put me in a super active mood! Mal, was this in a never-ending-loop? Does the name have a meaning?

Any one wants some icy watered Ouzo with Meze?

Greek music #1

More Greek music

Remember Anthony Quinn as Zorba the Greek? He was a talented artist, even if he wasn't Greek. Click the link below to see some of his paintings and sculptures. Melina Mercouri was my favorite Greek actress, and, of course, Maria Callas had a voice like nobody else in the world.

Anthony Quinn artwork

Youppeeeee! Greek, Italian music here!!!! Just when the Italian Festival is starting for a week in the park. I can sit on my balcony and hear it all. Too far away to see it, but two hours of ballads is enough after an hour. Fabulous singers equal Mario Lanza. My first summer in this Italian neighborhood with all kinds of festivities in the park 4 times each summer, fireworks displays, etc. etc.

Mal, Zorba's Antony Quinn is not Greek? I thought he was, he looked so Greek. Well!

Bubble, What is Ouzo with Meze? I think I know what Ouzo is but Meze no.

What a nice break from serious S of C we have these days.

I think I will put a CD of Maria Callas now.

Eloïse

ELOISE, Anthony Quinn was born in Mexico. His father was born in Mexico, the son of an Irish railroad worker. His mother was Mexican. Anthony Quinn died in 2001.

Mal

Olympics Timeline

Meze are all the small delicacies and tidbits offered while having an apperitif, appetizers.

Currency

In 625 B.C., metal coins were introduced in Greece. They replaced grain — usually barley — as the medium of exchange. Stamped with a likeness of an ear of wheat, the new coins were lighter and easier to transport than grain, and did not get moldy.

Oh Mal-The Greek music was wonderful- a real treat. Was the instrument featured in "Cliotis " a bouzouki? The fingering in the "more music" made me think of Ravels "Bolero"-insistamt beat and the crescendo to whih it built. I'm now going to explore Greek music. I'd like to know what is new or folk or folk music.

Thanks for an unexpected and exciting bit of lagniape.Hank.

You can tell from this nearly illegible post that I really can't see what the hell I'm writing any more.

HANK! It's so good to see you! I thought of Ravel's Bolero when I heard that music, too.

The music is synthesized and is probably as close to the sound of a bouzouki as the sequencer could get.

Love,
Mal

I can't get my speakers to work neither the externals or the internal. .. shoot. I love greek music.

HANK, Wonderful to see you.

MAL, Here is a site where you see artwork by ANTHONY QUINN. I didn't know he was such an artist. His art reminds me of Picasso.

I love Zorba's theme song.

BUBBLE, You have led an exciting life. Do you speak Italian as well as French and English and what else? You have so much talent.

Eloïse

I never knew Quinn was so talented, nor that he was such a family man. I loved the bronze statues.

I understand Italian and Spanish, but never learned it, so I can't stitch a sentence together. My parents could but seldom used it. I'd love to meet American Indians and learn or hear of those languages. I have always wondered if they had any affinity to African languages. French of course has a lot of Greek and Latin roots used but the construction, the feel of the language is totally different. To my ear, considering only the sounds, Greek and Swahili are as musical and pleasant.

Anthony Quinn fathered 13 children with two wives and several mistresses. He had what is called "a flamboyant personal life". I don't have any idea how much he was like the Zorba character he played, but I do think that's how we think of him. I loved that movie.

Irene Papas is another fine Greek actress.

Mal

History: A modified revial of the Olympian Games, the modern games were inaugarated in the spring of 1896 in Athens. This competion evolved into the summer Olympics.

Political competentions have increasingly interfered with an avowed aim of the modern Olympics, that of fostering international amity. The 1992 Olympics in Barcelona, Spain, reflected a changed political landscape: the 172 participating nations and territories included the Unified Team (with athletes from 12 former Soviet republics), a reunited Germany, and South Africa, which was allowed to compete for the first time since 1960. At the 2000 Olympics in Sydney Australia, North and South Korea entered the games under one flag, although they competed as separate countries.

The games held in 1906 in Athens by the International Olympic Committee. The games were cancelled in 1916 because of World War I and again in 1940 and 1944 because of World War II.

Competition: The 1896 games in Athens attracted athletes from the U.S., Great Britain, and 11 other nations. Only 42 events in 9 sports were scheduled for these games. Since that small start, several significant trends have emerged: progressively superior performances by successive generations of Olympic athletes; increased participation of women, who were first admitted to Olympic competition in 1912; an increase in world class, medal-winning performances from athletes of smaller nations; and a steady rise in the number of sports and evens open to competion.

The total number of participating athletes has also grown from 285 who competed in the first games in Athens to the more than 10,500 who competed in the 2000 summer games in Sydney Australia.

The medal sports included archery, badminton, baseball, basketball, beach volleyball, boxing, canoeing-kayaking, cycling, diving, equestrian sports, fencing, field hockey, gymastics, judo, modern pentathlon (riding, cross-country running, swimming, shooting, and fencing), rhythmic gymnastics, rowing, sailing, shooting, soccer, softball, swimming, synchronized swimming, table tennis, taekwondo, team handball, tennis, track and field, trampoline, triathlon, volleyball, water polo, weightlifting, and wresting. In all, 300 medal events were held in 2000 summer Olympics.

I think that the Olympics can be viewed as the story of modern civilization. I wonder how the ancient Greeks would feel about the various competitions we now have as compared to the Olympics that they competed in so many years ago.

All you wanted to know about Greek eating and cooking

I wonder if the Ancient Olympic Games mixed POLITICS AND SPORTS.

Robby

I suppose in comparing the old Olympics with the new, that in the games' case, bigger is possibly better. What I would like to see is a return to amateur contestants. The present day games have become too professional, too business oriented, for my liking.... ++ Trevor

The Real Story of the Ancient Olympic Games: Politics (University of PA website)

Whether elephants make love or war, it is the grass that suffers.

This morning I heard that doping did exist in ancient Greece too. Some athletes were suspected to have eaten excessive amounts of Sesame Seeds because it was believed to enhance their athletic performance. This was a serious research finding.

Eloïse

I'm very fond of watching sports but I don't like how the media portrays the Olympics. I'd like to be able to watch the games without the media asking somebody who just lost the race, why he thought he lost it. And I also would like to be able to see the games from beginning to end without 50 million commercials and emphasis on the games themselves rather on the background hoopla that the media is fond of giving us. I wish I could get Candian TV where I am. My daughter gets it back East and she said it's alot better than the US. I wonder if the ancients had to put up with commericals when they were watching the games.

I also thought it was interesting that women were accepted as athletes (1916) before they were accepted as voters.

One thing I do like about the Olympics is that it gives the "little guy" just as much of a chance as the bigger nations.

You're right about the doping in ancient times. But back than it was part of the games - everybody did it. There are certain herbs and ointments grown in the hills of Greece that are supposed to enchance your preformance while participating in the games.

SCRAWLER: I agree with you. I also don't like the fact that American TV almost completely ignores sports where Americans are not expected to do well. As a sport junkie, I look forward to the olympics partly as a chance to see sports that I don't normally get to see. But I have to wait until an American shows up as a contender before I get a chance to see any but the most cursory coverage. I would love to see the ping pong matches, for example.

In 1964, there was an American movie made of the 1964 olympics. I was living in Israel, and went to see it, with an Israeli audience. It was embarrassing!! They only showed competitions where the American wone, and would havea lengthy scene after of the American flag and anthem. Israeli audiences are not polite after awhile of this, they began roaring with laughter every time the anthem was played, and walking out. I didn't blame them!!

Hey, you "Life of Greece" participants, do you see any familiar names on THIS MAP?

Robby

Here is a LINK to a slide show and an additional link to "What's Doing in Athens."

Robby

What's this? Olympic athletes posing NUDE IN PLAYBOY?

Like did Greek athletes wear any clothes in the Olympics 2000 years ago?

Ancient Greek Athlete

Clothes help Olympic athletes win?

I think everyone who participates and lurks in this discussion should read The Mysterious Stranger by Mark Twain, if you haven't already.

Mal

I loved that book, but it was penned ahead of its time. I don't always enjoy Mark Twain's books, but this one I loved.

That's what the world needs: Nude Olympics! I bet we'd find that for the most part we're all pretty much the same underneath all those clothes. Besides you would enhance the athletics performance.

on my disk somewhere a nude picture of our govenor in his heyday, beautifully artfully done and he was beautiful....does anyone want me to find it and post it? or send it vcia e-mail

I am wondering if those who have spent three years examining 5000 years of numerous cultures will look at this INTENSELY COURAGEOUS SPEECH any differently from those who know only the Western culture in which we live.

Robby

A speech like the one above would never have been necessary in Ancient Greece or Ancient Rome, two great civilizations. I think I know the answer, but will ask the question anyway. Why does it have to happen in our Western civilization now?

Mal

MAL - how long do the Greek music links usually take to download. I clicked on your link, waited 5 minutes and nothing happened. I, too, love Greek music and would enjoy hearing the music. Any suggestions?

Hi, all, I'm still lurking here waiting for vol. 4 of Durant. Could be that you are suffering from lack of Durant during August, LOL,

Pamela

Robby,

re post # 284: what a man with integrity!
Oh I wish we had more politicians of that caliber. I wish we had him and his honest thinking here, right now.
May he be blessed for having dared to take that courageous step.
Bubble

Click HERE to read about the origins of the superstition of "Friday the Thirteenth."

Robby

Some comments on the connection between the OLYMPIC GAMES AND WAR.

Robby

Are the Olympic Games a FAILURE before they begin?

Robby

I underwent lengthy surgeries at the Moffitt Hospital, attached to UCLA in San Francisco.

"Living" in the hospital, I had enough time as a teen to explore it from top to bottom. I was always amazed, on the 13thF, to see how a whole floor of that busy hive had been left totally unfinished, no floor tiles, all pipes showing on the ceiling, just because of superstition.

That 13 is a superstition that makes bad luck worse on a Friday

And even intellegant people believe it. My daughter had her last son induced on the 12th so he wouldn't be born on Friday the 13th.

I think I am being infected by the cynacism of this age. My response to that speech was "Oh, he's being blackmailed and he decided to come clean rather than submit". Even so, it was a brave and honest decision.

My friends who live in the SW part of Florida, where we just sold our home, are reluctant to NOT believe in Friday the 13th. Hurricaine Charlie is making his way right to them as we speak.

Here's a good radar map of Hurricane Charley, if you're interested.

Radar map

Projected path of Hurricane Charley

MAL, thanks for the map of CHARLEY. This is definitely a major hurricane. Evey year I get one of those tracking maps with the idea that maybe I'll track them and I never get around to it. It looks as though the area around Miami is the only plart of Florida that won't be affected by either Bonnie or Charley.

Right where that little red "knob" is is where we lived. I have had 4-5 calls today from our friends there who wanted to know wehre we where. They think it's time to party! I explained to them that I sat thru Hurricane Hugo when we lived in N. Myrtle Beach and IF I were in the Port Charlotte area, in our old house, I would "be outta there!"

Scrawler said (in post 282) that underneath our clothes we all look the same as the Olympic athletes. Scrawler, my dear, I don't know about you, but if I take off my clothes, there is no way I'm going to look like an athlete. No way.

Mal, I agree that the Greeks and Romans would not have had the faintest idea what the New Jersey governor is talking about. It would never have occurred to them that homosexuality had anything whatever to do with governing a state.

A staff member here said that the hurricane should have been named with a different "C". It should have been named Clyde.
Think carefully, folks, it's very subtle.

Robby

Couple a crooks, that's what they are. That Bonnie always was a bad influence on Clyde.

Serenity prayer time, ROBBY. It looks as if Charley is headed between Daytona and St. Augustine. My son lives in a second floor apartment a short walk from the ocean at Vilano Beach, a mile or two north of St. Augustine, over the intracoastal bridge. No doubt he has been, or will be, evacuated to a safer place.

Tornados too close for comfort here in central North Carolina this evening. We've had torrential rain. Tomorrow there'll be more when Charley drops in.

Mal

I am watching the Olympic Opening Ceremonies. Will see you folks in a while.

Robby

I was extremely impressed and touched by the magnificent Olympic Opening Ceremony. The Greeks can be duly proud of themselves. I am especially impressed by Gianna Angelopoulos-Daskalaki, the Athens 2004 president. I am told that she was out of the picture for the first three years, that nothing was done, and that she was brought back to resurrect the program.
She did just that in only four years. She is a beautiful woman (not Hollywoodish) but with character in her face, speaks numerous languages fluently, and her public speaking illustrates the passion she has and which obviously had much to do with making the Ceremony a success.
I am so glad I had the opportunity to read "The Life of Greece" before seeing this spectacle. It was meaningful to me in many ways as it brought back memories of incidents related by Durant. I am not used to watching TV from 8 p.m. to midnight but it was certainly worth it.

Robby

As always, the Olympic opening ceremony was very impressive. I kept thinking of you folk here who read so interestedly of Greece, in Durant's volume two. I was emotionally carried away by the whole celebration of the Olympic spirit. Great theatre. ++ Trevor

It was awesome. What an imaginative show! Bravo!

And look who couldn't get either of the channels carrying the Olympics on her TV.

I see that you have pretty much the same weather forecast in Virginia that we have here, ROBBY. We're under a tropical storm warning and on a tornado watch right now.

I've been hearing the names of places I used to go to when I lived in St. Augustine, Florida. I guess the hurricane did some damage at Flagler Beach, one of my old hangouts.

Hearing that reminded me of Henry Flagler. Flagler was a railroad tycoon who built many buildings in St. Augustine in the late 1800's, including the 540 room Ponce de Leon Hotel, now part of Flagler College. His wife was ill, so they went to Jacksonville, north of St. Augustine, during the winter. As many people do, they fell in love with St. Augustine, and Flager decided he'd make it the Riviera of the U.S.

At the same time he built the Florida East Coast Railway. In the process, he built the Ormond Hotel just north of Daytona. The Palm Beach area seemed even more suitable for his Riviera ideas, so he built hotels there, including the Royal Poinciana at Lake Worth and a large home for himself. You'll see the name Flagler all over the Eastern Florida coast.

That's my bit of history today. It has nothing to do with the Olympics, which I guess I won't be able to watch.

Mal

Revising the Grecian Formula

An intriguing article, Mal. Maybe someone here can answer the question:-where were the Greeks and what were they doing between the B.C. era and the present day? -- if anything?

Robby

"Religion" - a topic often covered in this discussion group is described in this ARTICLE.

Robby

I share your enthusiasm for her --Gianna Angelopoulos-Daskalaki--. kept thinking of her in political terms. . . but that's where my mind has been lately. the show was the best I've ever seen I wondered if all those athletes stood thrugh out it though. didn't see any chairs. . . and wasn't that map effect grand? the whole tone about getting together in peace in spite of our differences touched me deeply. that is my hope for all of us. . . .

Mal I've been wondering about your safety. isn't chapel hill in the path? watch out for those accompanying tornados . . and DUCK or something. . . claire

CLAIRE, there's no need to worry. The hurricane, now a tropical storm, is not affecting us here right now. This house weathered a direct hit from Hurricane Fran in 1996, so this seems like nothing to us. I haven't been able to reach my St. Augustine son by phone. Either he was evacuated from his apartment and hasn't been allowed back, or the phone lines are down.

I sent an SOS to my daughter, and she came in and finally got the Olympics channel for me. I watched two dives, and it went out again. This TV had been used several years when someone gave it to me ten years ago. Maybe somebody will give me a newer used one sometime?

Mal

A news excerpt:-

As he surveyed the destruction in downtown Port Charlotte, Governor Bush was asked why a mandatory evacuation order had been issued, but not for the area that was worst hit. "There's no science that can exactly say where a hurricane will go," he said.

"This is God's way of telling us that he's almighty and we're mortal," said the governor,

Whether you are a regular reader of obituaries or not, reading THIS is a MUST! It is fascinating from beginning to end and you will laugh all the way through.
Somehow I get the feeling (perhaps someone here can explain it to me) that it is definitely related to progress toward Civilization. It is also a tale of someone who began a career at what some people call retirement age.

Robby

This is the eulogy I posted in WREX yesterday. My daughter said today that she felt as if a relative had died because she'd known Julia all her life. (My grandson just came in and reminded me that he and a friend did an imitation of Julia Child in high school --- in German!)

"One of my alma mater's most famous graduates died last night. Julia Child was 91. Don't rest in peace, Julia. Keep 'em smiling while you cook up a storm wherever you are. Bon appetit !"

I too was impressed with the Olympic Opening Ceremony. The people on those floats representing Greek history made me have goose-bumps. It was as if the statues themselves had come alive. I was equally impressed by their use of Air, Earth, Fire, and Water and their balance and harmony within the program. It truly was a magnificient Olympic Opening Ceremony balancing the ancient Olympics with modern inovations. I held my breath with that mechanized torch was coming down.

Gianna Angelopulos-Daskalaki is a very dedicated Greek. She had been replaced early on but it was her dedication and guidance that gave us the beautiful ceremony of last night.

Ah! French cuisine, coq-au-vin, coqueille St. Jacques. C'est délicieux.

The French spend at least 3 hours a day in the kitchen cooking and from 3 to 4 hours eating and drinking wine and linger over a digestif while indulging in their favorite past time, arguing.

Eloïse

I loved it!! I was a Julia Child fan before she was on television. But then I took "Mastering the Art of French Cooking" with me when we went to Israel, and realized it would cost a week's salery to buy the ingrediants for one of her recipes. LOL

Has anyone heard from Justin? We miss him in the TS Eliot discussion.

I began cooking in earnest when I was around 12 and had Home Ec in grammar school. I'd go home to an empty house and cook what we had just cooked in school, if the ingredients were in the house. If they weren't, I improvised.

It was in 1960 that I started cooking French, I guess. I loved the hours of preparation more than I liked eating the food I made.

I used lots and lots of wine in those sauces, and cream and butter, just as Julia Child did. I told my husband once that he wanted Sunday dinner every single darned day of the week --- and he got it. My dinners were a production just like the theater, whether I was cooking for 2 or 25.

Julia Child taught me not to be so serious about it, that it was okay if I dropped something on the floor and picked it up and dusted it off and served it.

My daughter told me today that in answer to the question, "To what do you credit your longevity?" Julia Child said, "Good martinis and great big steaks."

She was no dummy, Julia wasn't. She hooked herself up with people like Louisette Bértholle and Simone Beck, who really knew what they were doing, and later with James Beard and Jacques Pépin.

She was outrageously unpretentious, and she managed to convince a lot of meat and potatoes and gravy Americans that sophisticated cooking was fun to do and tasted delicious, too.

Mal

The latest news implies that the days of the POPE are numbered. In this forum we watched the birth of Christianity and in the coming months will be watching its growth.
Perhaps the death of the Pope will be relatively soon. Perhaps his life will linger but he will be unable to rule. Who will be in charge? Who is in charge now? The procedure of changing from one Pope to another is definitely relevant to our discussions here.

Robby

Let us keep in mind what we learned in "Our Oriental Heritage" about China because four years from now when it is the Olympic Host, we may be discussing it. (You DO believe that we will be in this discussion group at that time -- right?)
This is what CHINA is thinking about right now.

Robby

In the coming months we will be discussing not only the growth of Christianity but the birth and growth of Islam. Are these two religions mortal enemies? See what a HIGH CHRISTIAN CLERIC is saying on this subject and an editorial reaction by the NY Times.

Robby

Where else would we be in four years, ROBBY? Doesn't matter if we move. Computers can be used anywhere in the world.

Turkey: A democracy, not a Muslim democracy

This morning I saw on French Television the visit of the Pope to Lourdes, the Holy Site with miraculous source. The poor man seemed totally fazed while some cardinal made an endless speech in his honor. The crowd there was unbelievable in numbers and even when people were cheering, it did not seem to revive him. I really cannot understand how or why he has to be put through all that...Bubble

Wouldn't you say, Bubble, that he is put through that because he is a symbol even more than he is a living human being? As we have taken this voyage toward Civilization, haven't we seen the importance of symbols? -- the crowns? the sculptures? the robes? the pyramids? the scepters? How about the red carpets of today? the 21-gun salutes? the domes on the capitols? the hats worn by veterans?

Robby

I'm not interested in sports, but I love the Olympics because I like to see all those people from all those different countries coming together in friendly competition instead of hostile war. Also, I like to see how beautiful and skilful the human body can be when it is at its best. The Olympics are a model for an ideal world where there is peace among all the nations, and beautiful healthy people. Of course, the real world is not like this, but it's nice to know what it could be like.

Mal, Eloise, Joan,

I too feel like I lost a personal friend when the news came out about Julia Child.

My wife and I were married in 1963, and one of the first things we bought was a little B&W television so I could watch football games on Sunday afternoons. We quickly discovered a very personable lady on Boston Public Television (WGBH) who told us it was easy and fun to cook the French way, and she was going to show us how.

We watched every show, and bought the book "Mastering the Art of French Cooking" (which I still have, squirreled away in a box, somewhere, awaiting our next move.)

We set out to cook every dish in the book together. If we didn't succeed, we came pretty close. There was nothing more fun for us than inviting a couple over to our apartment for saturday night dinner, and spending the day preparing the dish. It took us all day, too. Julia's Beef Bourgogne cannot be made in a couple of hours. Just preparing and sauteing the whole mushrooms before adding them to the casserole took us over an hour. Then adding the cognac and igniting the dish for company...show biz! (or was that the coq au vin that took the cognac?..no matter, it was all wonderful!)

She had a great sense of humor. I remember one time she tried to capsulize the difference between Italian, French, and German cooking in as few words as possible. "Italians cook with olive oil, the French cook with butter, and the Germans cook with lard!"

I will miss her.

Rich

If that is what it is, Rob (about the Pope) then seeing him so helpless is destroying a myth or a symbol significance...

I'll be on vacation from the 19th through the 29th, but will be back for the start of the new book, and will try to drop in.

JOAN, you'll try to drop in? You'd better, if you know what's good for you! Have a good time while you're away.

Mal

http://www.rednova.com/rnprogs/iodgen?k=1&u=99&y=2004&m=8&d=13

Click to see Athens Olympics Sports Complex by Space Imaging’s IKONOS satellite. If you click on the picture you will get it bigger with amazingly clear details.

Thanks, BUBBLE. Have you all noticed what Google's artists are doing with its logo during the Olympics?

Mal

Thanks Mal, for looking in on me. I have been vacationing but am back and doing my thing in Wasteland. My email is out for some reason or I would have responded earlier.

Click HERE to see how the Olympics are mixing the past with the present.

Robby

I am leaving this discussion until the Olympics are over, since what I read in the newspaper can't compare with watching what these athletes do, and I'm TV channel-deprived.

See you in September, if the hurricanes and tornados leave us alone and the crick don't rise.

Mal

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=585&e=2&u=/nm/20040816/sc_nm/israel_archaeology_cave_dc

Cave Linked to John the Baptist Found in Israel. You might be interested in this new archeological find.

Assignment of the new cave to John the Baptist looks to me like an act based on wild speculation and wishful thinking. There is a foot rest in stone for foot washing and scratches on the wall that look like a man. I suppose people may have washed their feet above a cistern but it is an unlikely action to me. Cisterns hold drinking water.

Bubble, that's a very interesting discovery, but the evidence seems pretty slim that the cave was used by John the Baptist, doesn't it.

If you were part of this class, could you ANSWER THE QUESTIONS under #3 in the sections entitled "Activities" or "Further Questions?"

Robby

If you were part of this class, could you ANSWER THE QUESTIONS under the sections entitled "Activities" or "Further Questions?"

Robby

Interesting Robby and if you read the sub-link it gives all the answers. Alphabet, a combination of Greek Alpha and Beta invented by the Semitic in Egypt around 2000 BC. They simplified the hundreds of pictographs into more manageable signs by combining a whole sentence into one sign, thus simplifying learning to read.

I was always fascinated by the Inuit's writing and I learned that it is was a fairly recent invention, 1894. The Pittman shorthand method was used to represent certain sounds and anyone who knew the Pittman shorthand could easily read the INUIT WRITING.

Eloïse

In this forum we have discussed both medicine and religion in ancient times. What happens when in our own times the two are COMBINED?

Robby

of the nine eleven tragedy have really built a fire under our government. I"ve been glues to C-span for a week or two during all the hearings and this is a major job. . . civilizing our society with the help of those governed. from the description in the intro "political organization, so true . . . . claire

. . .make regarding post #274. The statement was made as follows: "In 1964, there was an American movie made of the 1964 olympics. I was living in Israel, and went to see it, with an Israeli audience. It was embarrassing!! They only showed competitions where the American wone, and would havea lengthy scene after of the American flag and anthem. Israeli audiences are not polite after awhile of this, they began roaring with laughter every time the anthem was played, and walking out. I didn't blame them!!"

Well, once again I must be retarded because I don't understand what is being said here. It seems to me that when a family A goes to a company picnic where events go on like sack races, it would be perfectly normal to film mostly their own children and family A members. What I find ill conceived with the above statement is that it's implying: after family A has filmed what they are mainly interested in, family B gets hold of the film and roars with laughter at it all.

But I will say that if family B wanted to see other events and other families' members, then they should have been there filming what they wanted to see instead of making fun of family A's film, or even bothering to show it. Sorry, but to me that is incredibly bad manners---but alas, it is the p.c. mantra these days to roar with laughter at anything American.

I don't think family A has anything to be embarrassed about, since everyone is free to film whatever they wish to see. The film was probably made for an American market(family A), and why family B would have it in their possession in the first place, let alone show it, is beyond me. Why they would then laugh about is even further beyond me.

Why exactly was an Israeli moviehouse showing a film that was filmed about American Olympic athletes for the American market? So they could laugh at it and feel superior? If the Israeli audience had wanted to see other events and winners, they should have gone there to film it themselves and shown their own film to their audience with all the events they wanted to see, and eliminated our national anthem to make them happy. Cutting parts out of a film these days is not rocket science. It would have been easy enough to do. But it's easier, I guess, to take the work of someone else and downgrade it and laugh about it.

So where exactly is the problem except for their own ineptitude and boorish manners? I can tell you if I had been in that audience it would have been the audience reaction I would have been embarrassed by, because not only was it bad manners, but also unkind.

It's like having your family film in the hands of a stranger who then laughs at it, because they were too "whatever" to make their own film which they might have been happier with---and if that isn't bad manners I guess I don't know what is.

good to see you and . . . . well said or . . . "uh huh" Claire

MOUNTAIN ROSE: I'm sorry you took offense at my comment. I assumed the American film company distributed the film worldwide, and I felt it was bad taste to do so, since it was so completely focussed on Americans. Or at least, it should have been distributed as a film about America at the olympics. The promos and the content of the film indicated it was a film showing the Olympics as a whole. As I remember the commentary, it was to the effect that this was showing the whole Olympics, not just part of it. Thus, one was left with a strong impression that the filmmakers just assumed that the US was the whole Olympics. That is what the spectators were laughing and booing about, not at the individual atheletes.

Yes, when I go to my kids or grandkids sports events, I take pictures of them only. But I don't then sell the pictures to other families as a representation of the whole event. If I did, I would expect them to be disappointed.

This has nothing to do with "PC". No one had heard of PC in 1964 when this happened. It has to do with courtesy toward people of other countries and the spirit of the olympics.

I am leaving tomorrow on vacation, but I will be checking in. I would like to hear what others think on this issue.

I think that many times we appear as a bully to other nations and when we do, as in this case, we deserve to be booed and even laughed at. When the big braggart shows family films to a general audience he appears as just that-a big bully. We should, as a nation, step softly, but carry a big stick. Too often,we walk and talk like a giant,swinging a big stick.

Last thoughts on this.

I think I've said it before here, but I'll say it again. Sometimes people act as if their country was their father, whom they should respect and obey, no matter what. I think that's backward. Our country is our young son, we created it, and we are responsible for its growth and development. I watch the behavior of my country more closely than others not because I don't love it with all my heart, but because I do. Because it is my responsibility to keep it the great country that it is. THAT to me, is true patriotism.

I think all nations are proud of their own Olympic contender's efforts, and just a little bit jealous of the achievements of other nations... These attitudes are natural to all people, everywhere.

For this reason, should Russia film their countrymens' efforts, largely to the exclusion of other nations' achievements, then screened the film to US audiences, that audiences' reaction would be the same as that of the filmgoers mentioned earlier.

Unfortunately, the smear of nationalism, is part of the culture of us all. Would that it were otherwise, but I admit it is part of my makeup, just as it is of others. The world would be a better place without it....++ Trevor

Justin, Yes America, as the most powerful country in the world, should not expect to be loved by the least powerful countries. America is like a very beautiful woman, she should always be kind, generous and forgiving, otherwise she will have no friends as she creates envy.

The fault lies with the promoter of the film. From the description, it sounds like what was being shown was a "family film" as Mountain Rose described it. The audience was misled by whoever (whomever?) advertised and promoted the showing.

What disturbs me is the immediate reaction or implication that America is responsible for this outrage.

I agree with Mountain Rose, it has lately become politically correct to blame America first for anything that goes awry on planet Earth.

Rich

Has anyone investigated how films are distributed? I was under the impression that a theater owners or managers bought packages of films and were under contract to accept and show what the distributor sent.

Mal

I know we're not officially going to discuss the Story of Civilization until September, but this is just too good.

Mal is always reminding me that the opening sentence of a story has to be a "grabber." This is the first sentence in my library copy of volume IV.

"In the year 335 the Emperor Constantine, feeling the nearness of death, called his sons and nephews to his side, and divided among them, with the folly of fondness, the government of the immense Empire that he had won."

You have to guess that Constantine had forgotten to take his "smart pills" that morning.

What an opening sentence! Can't wait 'till the September discussion.

Rich

. . . reported, but I was offended by the reaction of that audience and decided to express my opinion on the matter. As for Trevor's post that if Russia showed a film of Russian athletes as being ALL of the Olympics, I would at least have the decency to sit in that audience with my own thoughts, without laughing at what I would consider a "Russian family film". And I do believe I would have the decency to realize that it was a "distribution and promotion problem", not a "Russian problem", and certainly not an individual "athlete problem", people who go out there and give it their best shot.

We are a DEMOCRACY, and a film promoter has the right to distribute a film in just about any way he wishes. He's in it to make his money. It has nothing to do with America or the American people. If others do not realize that, it is NOT OUR PROBLEM.

As a matter of fact, I think that's one of the reasons people in the world often don't get along. There's not a whole lot of logic to their thinking and it's mostly emotion with a whole lot of envy, with a lot of false assumptions and bad manners thrown in.

I do agree with Joan that a country should be seen as less like a father and more like a son, with the responsibility towards a son to correct him when he is wrong. But while I would be quite willing to correct my son or give him advice from my experience, I would be unwilling to sit by quietly while others laugh at him when I know he is doing the best he can. I don't expect a son to be perfect; I only expect him to do his best. And whereas I, knowing my son, have a good "feel" for when he is doing his best and when he is not, others do not have the same knowledge or the same privilege.

. . . is the simple fact that they displayed such boorish manners to a friend, someone who has been loyal to them through just about thick and thin, and has made sacrifices on their behalf, as well as enemies. I can also say that if I had a friend who had helped me in bad times, and he showed a movie of his family to me, I would be gracious enough to sit through it EVEN IF I DIDN'T LIKE the movie, and especially since I would be there voluntarily. After all, there is such a thing as returning loyalty, if not with the same ideology, at least with good manners.

Anybody want to run around the block with me? Get your shoes on, and let's go!

I heard today that Cosco Warehouse in Chicago is featuring a line of caskets starting at $799.99. Civilization moves on!

Robby

is simply a case of misunderstanding and leaping to conclusiions and sounding off. . . so I caution- caution, is all. seeking a peaceful solution (S), claire

I think more and more of us are for scattering ashes. . . caskets may be going out of style which is good because cemetaries are getting pretty full now especially since the war. . . . suitable places to scatter are beginning to be subject to environmental concerns also. I live next to an ocean but what about all those heartland people. Now greece is an island, lots of water around there. what did they do with the remains of common people in rome?

Pause to savor a few OLYMPIAN MEMORIES from the past of 2000 years ago.

Robby

I just watched "Seabiscuit" on TV. I remember when I was a little girl, I sat in the living room next to the uncle who raised me and listened to my first horse race on the radio. My uncle told me all about Man O' War, a great, powerful horse. Then this little horse, Seabiscuit, came out from behind and beat him. We listened to more races with Seabiscuit winning. My Uncle Bob told me Seabiscuit was the greatest horse that had ever lived. I'm inclined to think he was right.

Mal

Rich7,

I too was struck by the opening lines in volume IV. It reminded me of Shakespeare's play King Lear, which also turned out disasterously!!

Pamela

I read somewhere that ROBBY is away until Monday evening. Since I usually come in and post from the book when ROBBY is gone, I'll keep up the tradition and post this instead.

Negila, Begila and Bangydoo
It was an ordinary summer day. The sun was shining; birds were singing, squirrels were leaping from branch to branch, and school wouldn’t start for another two weeks. Negila, Begila and Bangydoo were at loose ends trying to figure out something exciting to do.

When they passed the vegetable garden Negila pulled an ear of corn off the stalk and proceeded to eat it right there. “Ugh,” said Begila. “That must taste gross." Negila shook his head and offered him a bite. “What are you crazy or something, out of your gourd? I wouldn’t eat that if you paid me in spades.”

“What’s that mean?” Bangydoo asked.

“How do I know?” Begila said. “What I want to do is solve a mystery.”

“Like what?” Negila wanted to know.

“That mystery flower I heard about on TV last night. I have to find it.”

“What mystery flower?” Bangydoo wanted to know.

“If I knew,” said Begila, “it wouldn’t be a mystery.”

“What’s its name?” Bangydoo asked.

“Wall.”

“Wall?” Negila said. “That’s easy. It’s the one climbing that stone wall.”

“That’s a morning glory, dumbhead,” Begila said. “Everybody knows that.”

“What’s it look like then?” Negila asked.

“I never saw one,” Begila said, “so how do I know?”

They spent the rest of the afternoon hunting for wallflowers. They sucked on the end of witch grass; pummeled each other in the clover, ate one windfall apple each and blew around a piece of grass stuck between their thumbs to hear it whistle. Not a single wallflower did they find.

“Tell you what,” Negila said. “If we can’t find some we’ll make ‘em.”

Their grownups were very surprised when they got home from work to see Black-eyed Susans hot-glued all over one of the kitchen walls.

Not long ago we talked about the influence of writing, but what about numbers and counting?

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=585&e=3&u=/nm/20040819/sc_nm/science_counting_dc

From California:

Rich and Mountain Rose: I have to agree with both of you. Rich says: "What disturbs me is the immediate reaction or implication that America is responsible for this outrage". Yes, I assume the audience reacted that way, and I admit, so did I. I am the first to comment if someone, seeing bad behavior in a member of another culture, assumes that everyone in that culture behaves badly. But when I saw something bad and American, I did feel somewhat guilty.

The behavior in movies was not restricted to that film: it was usual when the audience didn't like a film for whatever reason. I sympathise with those who walked out, but not with those who made a noise so that anyone who wanted to couldn't listen.

Most people who have been Americans abroad have had many experiences of having strong feelings about America (sometimes negative, sometimes positive) reflected in attitudes toward them personally. It is a minority of people who do this, but it makes a strong impression. I have heard stories about this occuring in many different countries.

I feel it enough against Israel and it makes me feel most uncomfortable even though I never was nationalistic. Maybe it is related to thin-skin versus thick-skin...

my last famous word on this topic. Bubble

Shall I post another children's story nobody will notice to try and change the subject? Here's a look ahead.

Bernini statue of Constantine

Malyrn(Haverhill), Hey I read the story but was rushing about yesterday and didn't mention how much I enjoyed it.

and if not always proud, I'm certainly GLAD to be one. it's the best the world has to offer and I'll stick with appreciating it and yes, even loving it . . . .for freedom and diversity and endless possibilities it offers for THE AMERICAN DREAM. HaS anyone ever heard of THE GERMAN, ITALIAN,CHINESE,ENGLISH LATVIAN, CANADIAN, ARGININIAN, AFRICAN, DREAM? . . . . Claire

WINSUM YEP, I have.... thousands of times. ++ Trevor

Two recent articles on Iraq spoke to the dreams of those hoping to escape to another country.

The University at Bagdad had pictures and interviews of this years crop of graduates. All those interviewed were planning and hoping to leave Iraq for other countries. Most were dreaming of England, and those who could afford it continuing their education for advanced degrees. Europe seemed to be the preferred destination, with England leading their dream.

The second story from Iraq was from late last year. A group of jewelers and precious stones dealers in and around Basra in southern Iraq, had seen many kidnappings and abductions of their dealers. Some had been killed and others paid large ransoms for their release.

In the interview, the jewel dealers said they planned on leaving Iraq as soon as possible. Their dream was of Australia, where many of their colleagues had already gone over the years, and where they had connections.

Of the many personal stories I have read about Iraqis, their dream seems to be Australia. Even the young graduates mention it as a dream, but for them one which seems to be impossible because of distance and expense. Canada was also in their dreams.

All western countries are being invaded by the east, and that includes the U.S., but not everyone wants the American dream as was proven by the foreign residents who carried out the Sept. 11 attack.

I cannot imagine living anywhere but America. It was not even a country when my French and English ancestors came here. They didn't come for the American dream, they created the government that made the dream possible for others.

Fifi

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=585&e=3&u=/nm/20040820/sc_nm/bulgaria_archaeology_mask_dc

Good heaven! Somebody stole Munch's "The Scream" and his "Madonna" from a museum in Oslo, Norway! Now, how in the world could a fence possibly sell those two very well-known paintings, and how would anybody dare hang them on his or her walls?

Mal

Nobody called it theft when, in the early 1800's, Thomas Bruce, 7th Earl of Elgin, ordered the removal of friezes and sculptures from the Parthenon in Athens and had them (the Elgin marbles) taken to Great Britain. Greece is now making a desperate attempt to have them returned.
The Stripping of the Parthenon

do other civilizations than the usa one have a VISION of what they want to be and are they aware of WHERE THEY ARE CURRENTLY inrelationship to that. the UK used to have a vision of being so global that the sun never set on it. .. others???

Claire I can't speak for other people in Canada but I think we are almost at the same level as the US. Perhaps we are a bit lower economically but on the whole we are a pretty satisfied nation with regard to our system of government, at least as far as English Canadians are concerned. As for Quebecers, those who wish to separate from the Rest of Canada, don't know how well they are. Personally I think it can't get better than this at this time. Further down the road who knows what will happen. Canadians live like Americans in almost every way.

WINSUM Yes there are many wishing to escape from the h**l that is Iraq. Especially since first Saddam, and then US forces began wreaking their country during the years 1975-2004. I have two neighbours who are among them. On the other hand there are those who are rushing back, having earlier left.

People all over the world have individual hopes and dreams, for themselves and their nation, not only those living in the US. The tragedy is, so many seek to achieve those dreams by killing and dying "for the nation."++ Trevor

"The Scream" I cannot fathom anyone hanging this painting in their home.

I once attended a dinner party, and on the way to the powder room down a long mirrored hallway, my eye caught the reflection of what seemed to be a painting of a young girl in agony on the opposite wall. Grotesque is the only way to describe the painting, and I immediately thought of "The Scream".

Life holds so much agony that I prefer my surroundings to be serene and calm.

Fifi

I'm one of the oddballs in the world who see humor in Munch's painting, "The Scream". It is a satiric caricature of the first order. True agony never looked like that, nor did Jesus Christ's mother look anything like Munch's "Madonna", which also was yanked off the wall in broad daylight in Oslo. I bet they'll be changing their security system sooner than soon.

Mal

Madonna by Edvard Munch

The Munch Madonna is Surreal (a liberation of the unconscious) but it is also an expression of ecstasy. She is experiencing a blessed orgasm. Several painters have successfully expressed this aspect of divine love. Two such works come to mind. Corregio's IO and Jupiter is orgasmic as is Bernini's Ecstasy of St Teresa. The agony I find most painful is that of the Christ of the Isenheim Alterpiece by Gruenwald.

I can understand some one stealing the Madonna. It is almost pornographic. The Scream, on the other hand, will be harder to market.If there were no market for these priceless things theft would not occur. Museums, all over the world, are vulnerable to theft. Some are more susceptible than others. The Louvre and the Met have had some experience with this problem and have responded by putting their best works under protective but distorting glass.

Detail: Altarpiece by Gruenwald

JUSTIN, it is the hands that are agonized.

Detail: Bernini Ecstasy St. Teresa

Those hands created a response of horror. I never saw that one before. When I see the scream, it recalls the Nazi camps collective memory, and this makes it too real for me. Bubble

Dear BUBBLE, my friend: You're taking Munch too literally, and Munch was not a literalist. I see him screaming with laughter at everything he painted.

Mal

Bubble, to me the Scream represents a woman who is watching her child being tortured.

Could anyone, Bubble, tell me why the Dark Ages are called Le Moyen Âge in French while the "Renaissance" is the same in both French and English?

Eloïse

I had no idea it was called thus in English?

war is tragedy I wish we were civilized enough to not have to do that . . . go there . . . be so agressive . . . .and arrogaant . . . and awful. . . claire

When I visited the Munch Museum some years ago I obtained a post card with a picture of The Scream. Since then I have posted the card, first at work and now in retirement at home so that I see it every day. When times have been tough I have looked at the picture, and it has always seemed to do the screaming for me so that I don't have too, especially at work. Now someone please explain the psychology of that! For me it has been therapeutic, and it is even helping me this morning. To me it is a serious depiction of horror.

. . . stolen art, so I'm sure whoever stole it already has a customer lined up. In reading my art magazines I discovered that there are wealthy "art collectors" who collect art works the way some people collect stamps or coins. They don't display these art works in their living rooms. They simply want to OWN them, and their wealth allows them to do that. So people are actually hired to steal works of art that a particular collector wants to OWN.

Some stolen art works are eventually found, and some of them disappear permanently because the collector never shows them to anyone. It's his/her own private little dirty secret which gives a feeling of power.

This is the second time Munch's "The Scream" has been stolen. The first time was February 12, 1994.

Mal

There are more "Scream" paintings, but the one that was stolen from the museum in Oslo was the most famous.

......

Eloise: Le Moyen Age as you know means The Middle Ages. The Dark ages refers to an overlapping period in which the Church shut down learning and encouraged (you will forgive the word) superstition. The period runs roughly from the time of Charlemagne and Otto, perhaps a little earlier, to the late ninth century. The Crusades brought learning back to Europe and by the twelth century a Renaisance was well underway. The term "dark ages" is falling into disuse because it is so loose. The period from Constantine to the Eleventh century is generally identified with the Middle Ages and that in French is Le Moyen Age. However, it must be pointed out that these terms are not fixed. The period from Constantine to and including Justinian is often called Late Roman and sometimes Early Christian.

I'm back home but please let me continue to nap. I'm on Sabbatical, you know.

Robby

"The Scream was stolen from the National Gallery in Oslo February 12, 1994. Initially the theft was linked to various anti-abortion groups active in Norway. After three months, the painting was offered back to the Norwegian government for a ransom of USD (United States dollars) 1 million. The ransom was refused, but the painting was nevertheless recovered on 7 May with the help of Norwegian police, UK police and the Getty Museum.

"Some theorists liken the look of the screamer to that of a grey alien Greys are a type of intelligent extraterrestrial life that appear commonly in modern conspiracy theories, particularly UFO conspiracy theories and other UFO-related paranormal phenomena. They also appear in some science fiction and in the mythos of the Raelian movement.

"Greys are generally described as short, slender humanoids with hairless grey skin (hence the name) and large heads with enormous black almond-shaped eyes and small (often lipless) mouths. It is interesting to note that this description resembles a neotenous human, i.e., a human with infant-like features. Greys made their first significant fictional appearance in the 1977 motion picture

" In UFOlogy, a close encounter is an event where a person observes evidence of extra-terrestrial visitation of the Earth. Close encounters are categorized into three degrees or "kinds," thus a close encounter of the first kind is a sighting of an unidentified flying object or objects. Reports of fast-moving lights in the night sky or "flying saucers," unattributable to human technology, can all be considered close encounters of the first kind.

"Some theorists claim Munch was painting a close encounter he had exprerienced, while others use this theory to state simply that Munch was mentally unstable.

"In 2003 astronomers claimed to have identified the exact place and time the painting depicts. The eruption of Krakatoa in 1883 caused unuaully intense sunsets throughout Europe in the winter of 1883-4, which Munch captured in his picture."

Source:

Theft of the Scream, 1994

Here are some pictures of, and information about, Roman emperors in the 4th century, including Julian the Apostate.

Fourth century Roman emperors

Good grief. Do any of you guys want to wear "The Scream" around your neck? Here's your chance:

SCREAM NECKTIE

I think you may be talking in your sleep or lacking your usual pith, purhaps only snoring. . . . claire

Those folks here who participated in "Our Oriental Heritage" may be interested in THIS ARTICLE from today's NY Times.

Robby

Justin, thank you for your explanation of Dark Ages versus Moyen Âge. It should have the same name though for history's sake.

Are countries sharing borders and have disagreements starting to think that the US will come to their rescue? Will the US get involved in this?

Eloïse

"The Scream" is interesting to me because I feel that sound is being made visible. Waves of sound are radiating from the screamer. When I look at it, I hear a scream. I can't think of any other painting that produces this effect.

I just started reading a book by Barbara Tuchman: "The Distant Mirror" about the 14th century in Europe. I've only read a few pages, but so far, it's fascinating.

I've read Tuchman's "A distant Mirror" and found it to be excellent. The only book that approaches Tuchman's is William Manchester's "A World Lit Only by Fire."

Rich

Actually, I think Tuchman's "A Distant Mirror" and "The Guns of August" would make great seniornet reads. I'm just finishing up the "Paris 1919" read, which has been excellent. These would be great books to follow!

Pamela

Recovering stolen art, an article in the NY Times this morning

It won't be long, Mal. I'm feeling rested (so to speak), and I'm in the process of creating a new Heading and writing the opening postings.
I expect to see you all here one week from Sunday early in the morning. If you think the first three volumes were great, wait until you see this one!! For those who want to get a cheap paperback or second-hand copy of Volume Four, you still have time.
Put this on your calendar, everyone, and tell all your friends. Heavy recruiting is always encouraged.

Robby

The Age of Faith certainly is heavy, ROBBY, with its 1086 pages and 110 pages more of bibliography, notes, index and biography of the author. And I thought Our Oriental Heritage was a hefty book!

Mal

I have put a link from "Religion Related Books" to this discussion since we haven't decided on a new book for that folder yet. Hope someone new joins this marvelous discussion.

Hi,Robbie,

I got in on the very tail end of the last volume's discussion and am lurking waiting for September. I'm still confused about how you proceed, however. Do you actually post the text we are to be reading, or excerpts from it? Do we read along at a certain rate specified on the board? I know you use this group as a taking off point for world discussion, but I'm just not quite clear on how it all works. Since we are starting a brand new volume and will read it for about a year, I'm anxious to join in and keep up appropriately. I've read the first three volumes on my own but would love to read the fourth with this group.

Pamela

For Shasta Sills: Thank you for your comment about The Scream. Of course, that's it! It is a depiction of sound. No wonder it helps me when needed by screaming for me. Good assessment. La Verne.

some classics can be read on line. is this one of them? claire

CLAIRE, no, it's not available online. You can order a used copy from $5.88

HERE

Yes, Scamper. We move along together page by page. I actually post the text directly from the book although as we progess through the volume, I might skip over paragraphs which appear to be less important. There are people here who have the book and if any of them believe I skipped something extremely important, they will be sure to tell me! However, very little is omitted.
As to a certain rate, that is determined by the interest expressed by all of you here. We do not say this chapter for this week, etc. There are times when we have moved through two pages in one day. Other times we have spent a week on one paragraph. Many of us post links to related topics with special gratitude to Mal who is excellent at finding items of interest. Reading these links and discussing them often slows the pace because many participants want to talk about them. The pace will be neither too fast nor too slow because it will be exactly what all of you want.
I assure you that explaining it is more complicated than doing it. When you open to The Story of Civilization on Sunday morning, Sept. 5, you will find the same familiar Heading with brand new text in the Heading. You will also see two or three opening posts by me which explain everything in detail.
Relax!! You will fit in nicely.

Robby

Thanks, Robby, for the explanation. The way you all work sounds wonderful, and I can't wait to begin.

Pamela

Why do you suppose it is that some countries produce more athletes than other countries? I've heard there are about 200 countries represented in the Olympics. But so far, only 19 countries have won medals. The U.S. (79), Russia (56), China (52), and Australia (43) are the top four winners. Partly, it's simply a matter of size, I suppose. The larger countries produce more athletes. But there are probably other factors involved.

It puzzles me that we Americans, with our reputation for being the fattest and laziest people in the world, have still produced our share of outstanding athletes. I don't know what percentage of our population is athletic though. Possibly a small percent.

SHASTA Population size is part of the story, of course, but not all. For instance more people live in New York, than in Australia, but New Yorkers have not won 43 medals.

Canada has about the same population as Oz, but they are nowhere near Oz in the medal count, so perhaps it is climate that makes the difference between these two.

Then there is the fact that American Blacks are often medal winers though they are only a small percentage of the population. The pattern underlaying these statistics is not obvious at all... +++ Trevor

I have been getting email messages from people who are champing at the bit and are anxious to get back to The Story of Civilization. I have been spending my time preparing by going over the chapters in the Volume, working closely with members of the Tech Team, changing to a new Heading, and writing explanatory posts for newcomers. I anticipate a considerable number of newcomers -- some from AOL people who have joined us and some from Senior Net oldtimers. Please help by spreading the word. We open next Sunday morning, Sept. 5.
I have also written a Book Byte which every SNetter in Books & Literature will receive in a day or two.
You will not be disappointed! This is a magnificent book. If you enjoyed one or more of the previous volumes, you "ain't seen nothin' yet." Will and Ariel outdo themselves.

Robby

I forgot to add that in addition to the Book Bytes which will be sent to all people in Books & Literature, there will probably also be a blurb about The Age of Faith in the weekly Senior Update which is sent to all Senior Netters. I believe it will arrive this coming Wednesday.

Robby

It doesn't surprise me that the USA has more metals than anyone else. After all we sent the most athletes to the games. Then I've never been very interested in who has the most medals. I'd rather see the games from beginning to end and especially enjoy games were those other than the athletes I've seen are playing.

The Olympics is truly a great exposure of athletes that you would otherwise never get an opportunity to see.

Yikes! It can't be September already! Looking forward to the next discussion.

why don't I care who wins what etc. I like to watch the athletes. they'ree prime examples of human beauty and the horses too. . . but as for the competition. . . . so what!

I'm one person who thinks competition is a good thing. It spurs one on to do bigger and better things.

Mal

A FRANK APPRAISAL of the Olympics.

Robby

Religion touches the MARATHON.

Robby

The Olympics BEHIND THE SCENES.

Robby

Nine billion dollars! I kept wondering, as I watched the Olympics, how much this is costing Greece, and hoping it doesn't bankrupt the country.

According to one of my cousins in Greece, she said: "Send money! This will probably cost each Greek a thousand dollars a piece. However, they hope that after people seeing Greece on their TVs that they will come to visit and as she said: spend money!

I asked her how the security was and she said they weren't as much afraid of any security problems, but they were worried about earthquakes. It is earthquake season in Greece right now!

I enjoyed the story about 1946 Boston Marathon winner Stylianos Kyriakides, the champion Greek runner "whose victory helped bring food, medicine and world-wide attention to his famine-wracked country after World War II." I don't seem to remember that marathon, for some reason. The Boston marathon is a big event in my home state. Source: Kyriakides statue

I'll certainly be glad when September 5th comes. This discussion is my first stop every morning, and I miss the stimulation of ROBBY's quotes from the Durants' books, participants' comments and the thinking they stimulate. Reading the book on my own just doesn't do the same thing.

Mal

Mal:-Now you understand why I started this discussion after watching the eleven-volume set rest on my shelf for years. I could have read them on my own but I never got around to it. Then came the Senior Net and Books & Literature and I said to myself:-"This is the chance I've been waiting for." The opportunity to do the kind of stimulating sharing we do here.
You're right. It makes all the difference in the world.

Robby

Five..four...three.... It's almost time.

I found my copy of Durant's The Age of Faith and ordered it. At the same time, I found a copy of The Renaissance and ordered it from someone else. They arrived just hours apart from different locations, and look like a matched set...the oldish red hardback, and slightly yellow paper. Used, but very good condition, considering the small cost. I know I won't need the Renaissance for a while, but went ahead and got it, anyway.

I do have a question...someone mentioned it earlier. All these books listed appear to have been written by Will alone in The Age of Faith. Yet inside the The Renaissance, the Story of Civilization books are all listed as written by both Will and Ariel Durant. Did he just decide that late in the game to start giving her credit for what must have been a lot of assistance?? Or what is the story there? Anyone know?

Looking forward to joining the new discussion....or the old discussion on the new book. Some of you have been here a long time. I'd be interested in knowing how many have been here from the beginning?????

I am so glad I discovered this "Story of Civilization" here. I had given up some of the book discussions, wonderful as they were, because I do not read "as directed" and "in unison ", or whatever.....But I will wait and read your suggestions, Robby. I have decided I will find a way to read as I must, and still enjoy the discussion and follow along.

The discussions have just been too fascinating to miss. Thanks for your hard work Robby.....and Mal, and all the others that have been posting here.

Sun

Robby, I am grateful for your leadership and desire to read Durant with all the participates. I read all the posts but it is usually late when I get the chance to come here.

I had read two of Durants books, one for a class and the other on my own. I always intended to read more but life intervened. I started a non fiction book club when I retired, but my fellow bookies warned me about bringing in another tome after I talked them into reading "Albion's Seed".

What a pleasure to find this book group on Senior Net, with the most wonderful group of people. All of you have expanded my small corner of the universe.

Thank you Robby, and Mal also for her wonderful links and always interesting comments.

Fifi

SUN and FIFI, thanks, but I don't deserve any sort of credit here. ROBBY's the one who does.

I went back to the beginning of the Our Oriental Heritage discussion in the Books Archives to see who was posting. ELOISE, TREVOR, HUBERT, BUBBLE and I are still posting now. PATRICK BRUYERE was very active in the early days. Patrick has died. MAHLIA was active, too. She still comes in from time to time. I don't know exactly when JUSTIN began to post, but he's been a very valuable participant here for quite a long time. I imagine that there are many, many people who lurk and don't post, for whatever reason. I wish they would.

Mal

I found this quote I posted in the Archives.

"Does history support a belief in God? If by God we mean not the creative vitality of nature but a supreme being intelligent and benevolent, the answer must be a reluctant negative. Like other departments of biology, history remains at bottom a natural selection of the fittest individuals and group in a struggle wherein goodness receives no favors, misfortunes abound, and the final test is the ability to survive. Add to the crimes, wars and cruelty of man the tornadoes, pestilences, tidal waves and other 'acts of God' that periodically desolate human and animal life, and the evidence suggests either a blind or impartial fatality to which we subjectively ascribe order, beauty, or sublimity. Nature and history do not agree with our conceptions of good and bad; they define good as that which survives and bad as that which goes under, and the universe has no prejudice in favor of Christ or against Genghis Khan."

(p.46, The Lessons in History by Will and Ariel Durant, published in 1968, "A distillation of the accumulated store of knowledge from their forty years of historical research.")

Welcome among us Sunknow. True, as Mal said, I have been in this discussion since the beginning and I never go a day without my dose of Story of Civilization.

This LINK describes the excesses of humans in the name of FAITH but in my opinion, it a front for other motives that cannot be openly expressed. This Figaro article explains why two French journalists were taken hostage in Irak to demand the reversal of a law that forbids the wearing of head scarfs in France's schools.

Eloïse

The first posting was Nov 1, 01. I found the discussion on November 20 and posted # 567 in the first thousand that night. I have since enjoyed talking with a great many intelligent people. My fondest hope is to be in conversational shape at the finish several years from now.

My fondest hope is to stay alive that long.

Robby

ROBBY, is there any reason why you wouldn't?

Mal

I was at Costco, the discount place here in orange county and picked up three books, MY LIFE, NINE ELEVEN COMMISSION REPORT, AND DUDE WHERE IS MY COUNTRY (MICHEAL MOORe). NOT FIT TO COMMAND WAS sold out the first day. and it's a pack of lies. . . shows you what my neighborhood is like. anyhow, the micheal moore book is entertaining as well as well documented and feels true. . . at least to me. I guess I'm so involved with the present (c-span congressional harings etc. ) that nothing else seems very important to me. I'll probably lurk a little but the middle ages were SO long ago and no one at that time published books except the clergy. . . or did they? When was the printing press invented and was everything that was written done by hand?. . . and how distributed to the population if at all. . . .just wondering. . . . Claire

As we move forward in this forum discussing Mankind's progress, we often comment on what humans are doing to humans. But what about what humans are doing to RABBITS and other endangered species?

Robby

Since we are about to begin the Age of Faith, I thought you might be interested in a book I recently read: "Pillars of the Almighty." Ken Follett, a great story teller, wrote the "Pillars of the Earth." "In this book, "Pillars of the Almighty" the talents of photographer f-stop Fitzgerald (interesting name) bring the central image of Follett's novel - the building of a Gothic cathedral - excitingly to life.

Fitzgerald's photographs of world-famous cathedrals are magnificent by themselves. But by combining them with excerpts from Follett's novel, Fitzgerald has captured the challenge and heartache, determination and ultimate glory of Tom and Jack's quest to build Kingsbridge Cathedral amid the hardships of life in twelfth-centry England.

These photographs of soaring arches and haunting sculptures pay tribute to the artistry of the stonemason, as does the intriguing introduction by Simon Verity, master sculptor of New York's Cathedral of St. John the Divine."

This really was an unbelieveable book. Follett's story telling was at its best, but the photographs took my breath away. But combining the two brought me a picture that really made me appreciate these masons, carpenters,stonecutters and laborers of this time period and the work they produced.

"He looked shrewdly at Tom, "Have you ever built a cathedral before?

"No, though I've designed and built smaller churches..."Yes, Father. I want you to appoint me master builder, he said as calmly as he could.

"Why?"

"...Recklessly, he decided to tell the real truth. "Because it will be beautiful," he said.

I loved PILLARS OF THE EARTH and this sound like a good one too.....trouble is I have four big books going right now. just started the nine eleven report which reads like a tom clancy suspence novel...at least so far. scarey to think that it is so real and that our communications are so bad. . . improved but still lots to do. now about rabbits? I guess we do abuse them. . they multiply as fast as they can trying to keep up. . . we're getting silly in here . . . waiting. . . .claire

SCRAWLER You say of ( Pillars of the Almighty ), "This really was an unbelievable book." That might be a good reason to give it a miss, then. ( VBG)

Sorry, I'm in one of those moods today, and couldn't resist it ! Must be anticipation of waiting for 'The age of Faith ' to begin.++ Trevor

I'm looking forward to participating in this discussion again on a regular basis. During the past 10 days, my husband and I have been dealing with chicken pox (neither of us had it as children); continuing to settle into our new home (actually my son's home) in North Carolina - a big jump for us from many years in metropolitan Washington DC; and getting my husband ready to return to Egypt for the fall academic semester. Truly, I've missed this discussion and although I've read along a bit, have not really had the flexibility to contribute more. Once I regain my energy (no one told me how taxing a children's disease can be for adults!) and know that my husband has arrived safely, I'll feel more free to join this wonderful discussion group. In the meantime, for newcomers, you have a marvelous treat ahead. And for those who have particiated on a regular basis since the beginning, I'm looking forward to joining you again.

Mahlia it will be a treat for us to have you rejoin us again. My children had Chicken Pox but I don't remember if any of my grandchildren ever had it, they probably did and it was not as difficult as for adults as you said. I hope you are fully recovered now. Welcome back.

So sorry to hear of the illness of you and your husband, Mahlia. And certainly looking forward to your valuable contributions to this discussion.

Robby

Get plenty of sleep Saturday night, folks, and check in here early Sunday morning. Durant (and little ol' me) will be waiting for you. If you make a posting related to the subject -- great! But if not, at least please check in with a "hello" so that I can get an idea of who is with us.

Robby

Thanks for the welcome. Nice to be back. I'll be here, reading and enjoying along with the group.

MAHLIA: glad too see you back. I'm sorry you've left our DC area; I was hoping we might get a chance to meet. We'll both have to try to make one of the bashes.

Dear Mahlia, It's good to know you will be joining Robby and all. I too am returning to Seniornet after a season of change in my life and am comforted to find old net friends still here. Elizabeth

Isn't it strange how LIFE seems to get in the way of life sometimes. My husband and I hoped to visit with SN folks at the Richmond gathering, but family responsibilities kept us away from what I understand was a marvelous weekend. WE then gathered ourselves together and relocated to my son's home in NC to be near his wife and kids while he's deployed in Afghanistan. Last year it was Iraq for ten months; I can hardly wait to see where he will be in 2005! My husband's off to Egypt in a couple of days for the Fall semester, so I'm hoping to sit tight, return to this wonderful discussion, and enjoy some flexible time.

Get well and do take care of yourself. Its not fun to have one of those illnesses that children usually have. My kids were quite ill when they had chicken pox and afterward had scabs all over their bodies for a few weeks. No one wanted to get near them. They couldn't even walk for the pox on their feet. I,too, had the same reaction to the disease as a child,. Glad you are moved in and settled. I have a request in for the "Age of Faith" at the library but it hasn't arrived yet. I wanted to start it and see if I wanted my own copy when I get home from vacation. Now, we have "Frances" threatening to ruin our plans and leave a lot of Florida homeless. What a scary thing for them. We can, at least, change our minds but they don't have that choice and now must get out of the way of that path of the storm.

I noticed an artilce today by the Associated Press about the increased number of hurricanes and that they are expected to grow in number in the future. I've never been so aware of hurricanes (except Isabel)until we moved to NC two months ago. IT is one of the constant topics of conversation and I can certainly understand why. A friend recently bought a condo in Florida - much braver than I would be!

The worst hurricanes I've ever been in were in Massachusetts. At the time of the first one in 1938 I was in a cast that went around my torso from under my arms, down my left leg to my foot and up again. A tree crashed through the roof of the ward I was in at the Children's Hospital in Boston, and all of us children were moved to other parts of the hospital. Over 500 people died in New England during that storm, most at Cape Cod.

I was visiting relatives in Massachusetts in 1954 when Hurricane Carol hit. We had no electricity for over ten days, cooked food and boiled water to drink over a fireplace fire.

In 1996 Hurricane Fran hit us in central North Carolina. 12 one hundred foot trees went down just in the front yard of this property. A story called "The Leaning Tree", based on that hurricane, is in the September issue of Allegro. My daughter spent the entire day after that hurricane outside with her chain saw, sawing up trees and branches in this driveway and helping neighbors clear the street of fallen trees, so emergency vehicles could get through. That hurricane did terrible damage here, 150 miles inland.

I lived in St. Augustine, Florida just about ten years and never saw a hurricane there. There was a tropical storm, though, that took out the St. Augustine Beach pier and blew my carport roof down, and gave us 9 inches of rain in a very short time.

Maybe someday I'll tell you about blizzards I've been in, including the one near Erie, Pennsylvania where my husband, my four year old son and my baby son spent 8 hours in our car, stopped by the blizzard, and were taken in that night by kind people whose house near the highway we could not see. Women and children were taken out of the area the following day by the National Guard.

Floridians have suffered terribly recently from Hurricane Charley. It doesn't seem right that they're threatened by Frances now.

As a just-in-case measure I have extra batteries for flashlights, candles and so forth in case the storm changes direction and heads our way. My daughter and her partner aren't worried. They're scheduled to fly to Costa Rica in the morning!

Mal

The psychological effect of hurricanes is demonstrated in this ARTICLE in this morning's NY Times.

Robby

In Ancient Greece the runners competed naked. In what direction in the field of sports has Civilization taken us? Check out this ARTICLE to get the bare facts.

Robby

Well, the American Womens'Beach Volleyball Team members were ALMOST naked! Does that count?

That depends. Did they win?

Robby

“Beach volleyball has been the hit of this Olympics,” said U.S. gold medallist Kerri Walsh after she and partner Misty May won the first women’s gold for the United States following a perfect competition in which they did not lose a set. (MSNBC)

Of course! That's because they were almost naked. Wait until you see the outfit they "wear" four years from now. Civilization moves onward!!

Robby

I love to watch beach volleyball -- always have. But I admit I always thought the scanty clothes the women wear were a shame. The olympic uniforms were veluminous compared to those worn in ordinary tournaments. How come the men wear baggy shorts and the women wear thongs? (Now if it were the other way around LOL)

I threw my back out doing that . . . age about thirty and wearing a bathing suit. . . but not a bicini...I would have only we did't in those days. . . claire

Joan:-If it were the "other way around," would it be a shame?

Robby

The latest on HURRICANE FRANCES.

Robby

ROBBY: yes it would... but I admit I wouldn't mind as much (I'm only human).

And so you, Joan, who are human and all the rest of us humans in this disucssion group are ready to roll. The word is that Durant is in the wings and early tomorrow morning will take us by the hand to show us what humans have been doing for millennia.
There were wars then, there were political intrigues then, there were family squabbles, there were environmental problems, there were health needs, there were scientific disputes, there were religious battles, there were arguments about moral values, there were financial crashes, there were shady business dealings -- there may even have been hurricanes.
Durant will move us along from the beginning years of Christianity in the East toward the West -- toward a Europe which is more familiar to us.
SEE YOU TOMORROW!!!