Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant ~ Volume III, Part 4 ~ Nonfiction
jane
February 17, 2004 - 02:55 pm


What are our origins? Where are we now? Where are we headed?

Share your thoughts with us!





  
"I want to know what were the steps by which man passed from barbarism to civilization." (Voltaire)





Volume Three ("Caesar and Christ")

"Four elements constitute Civilization -- economic provision, political organization, moral traditions, and the pursuit of knowledge and the arts. "

"I shall proceed as rapidly as time and circumstances will permit, hoping that a few of my contemporaries will care to grow old with me while learning. "

"These volumes may help some of our children to understand and enjoy the infinite riches of their inheritance."

"Civilization begins where chaos and insecurity ends." "








CIVILIZING THE WEST







"All that Sicily lost through Roman domination Africa gained."

"From Seneca to Aurelius Spain was the economic mainstay of the Empire."

"Caesar and Augustus reorganized Gaul into four provinces."

"Roman schools in Britain spread literacy."





In this Discussion Group we are not examining Durant. We are examining Civilization but in the process constantly referring to Durant's appraisals.

In this volume Will Durant recounts the flaming pageant of the rise of Rome from a crossroads town to mastery of the world. He tells of its achievements from the Crimea to Gibraltar and from the Euphrates to Hadrian's Wall, of its spread of classic civilization over the Mediterranean and western European world. He relates Rome's struggle to preserve its ordered realm from a surrounding sea of barbarism and its long slow crumbling and final catastrophic collapse into darkness and chaos.

Turning to the eastern Mediterranean, we accompany Christ on his ministry, witness the tragic scenes of the Passion, and sail and walk with Paul on his missionary labors. The Empire attains a new invincibility under the Emperor Aurelian, declines, and finally stiffens into a bureaucratic mold.

This volume, and the series of which it is a part, has been compared with the great work of the French encyclopedists of the eighteenth century. The Story of Civilization represents the most comprehensive attempt in our times to embrace the vast panorama of man's history and culture.

This, then, is about YOU. Join our group daily and listen to what Durant and the rest of us are saying. Better yet, share with us your opinions.



Your Discussion Leader: Robby Iadeluca

Story of Civilization, Vol. III, Part 1
Story of Civilization, Vol. III, Part 2
Story of Civilization, Vol. III, Part 3



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jane
February 17, 2004 - 02:56 pm
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jane

Justin
February 17, 2004 - 04:25 pm
Scrawler: I agree. Nero might have been a second rate artist if he continued to try. He was motivated. Did he have skill? I don't know. But I do think that he wanted approval for the things he did and he probably felt the lack of real approval. Here is a sixteen year old kid, thrust into the most powerful job in the world by his mama. People were kissing his feet and saving his tears for posterity. He did what he could to avoid the boredom. He killed people in amusing ways. He learned to like watching people die in unusual ways at the circus.

tooki
February 17, 2004 - 09:26 pm
Why hasn't this story been done by anyone except Montiverti (nice account, Justin)? It has all the elements: gonzo love; matricide; the snot nose's scheming; would be, frustrated artist; discarded wife. All of them packaged with the total hubris available to mankind.

Freud should have gardened in this fertile, hot bed of neurosis; Shakespears should have mined the depths of these disorders.

Anyway, I wonder why no one has immortalized the story. Have I missed something?

Justin
February 17, 2004 - 11:11 pm
There is more to the story of Poppea than has been offered to us thus far. She died from a kick in the stomach while pregnant. The kicker was Nero himself who was disturbed by Poppea's railing. He arrived home from the games later than Poppea expected. She berated him so he gave her a kick. She died shortly after and was eulogized by Nero who buried her in the tomb of the Julians.

Justin
February 18, 2004 - 12:54 am
In the period following Caesar we read and discussed literary works by Cicero, Livy, Vergil, Ovid, and Horace. However, there is one writer of note whom we did not read and discuss. His name is Vitruvius. He wrote ten books on architecture that have guided successfully architects through the last two millennia. His work is definitive and so I can't let us pass by without at least a nod to this great mind.

The preface to Book One is worth noting.
"While your devine intelligence and will, Imperator Caesar, were engaged in acquiring the right to command the world... I hardly dared, in view of your serious employments, to publish my writings and long considered ideas on architecture, for fear of subjecting myself to your displeasure by an unseasonable interruption."

Justin
February 18, 2004 - 01:06 am
One other event of note has slipped by us. Varus not only lost three legions of 5500 men each, to the Germans, he,as a result, established the Roman border at the Rhine. As a consequence, the spread of the Romance languages ended at the Rhine. Varus committed suicide.

Malryn (Mal)
February 18, 2004 - 05:04 am
"In Book III of his De architectura, Vitruvius writes,

'Without symmetry and proportion there can be no principles in the design of any temple; that is, if there is no precise relation between its members, as in the case of those of a well shaped man.'

"He goes on to say,

'. . . if a man be placed flat on his back, with his hands and feet extended, and a pair of compasses centered at his navel . . . the fingers and toes of his two hands and feet will touch the circumference of a circle described therefrom. And just as the human body yields a circular outline, so too a square figure may be found from it. For if we measure the distance from the soles of the feet to the top of the head, and then apply that measure to the outstretched arms, the breadth will be found to be the same as the height . . .'

"This paragraph has given rise to many pictures of men in squares and circles, so called Vitruvian men, some as illustrations to editions of his book, including the famous one by Leonardo."



Vitruvian man

Drawing from one of the architecture books by Vitruvius

robert b. iadeluca
February 18, 2004 - 05:09 am
"Nero surrounded himself with new aides, mostly of coarser strain. Tigellinus, urban prefect, became his chief adviser, and smoothed the Prince's path to every indulgence. In 62 Nero divorced and dismissed Octavia on the ground of barrenness, and twelve days later married Poppaea.

"The people protested mutely by throwing down the statues that Nero had raised to Poppaea and crowning those of Octavia with flowers. The angry Poppaea confinced her lover that Octavia was planning to remarry and that a revolution was being organized to replace him in power with Octavia's new mate.

"Nero invited Anicetus, who had killed Agrippina, to confess adultery with Octavia and implicate her in a plot to overthrow the Prince. Anicetus played his part as commanded, was banished to Sardinia, and lived out his life in ease and wealth. Octavia was exiled to Panadateria.

"There, a few days after her arrival, imperial agents came to murder her. She was still but wenty-two, and could not believe that life must end so soon for one so guiltless. She pleaded with her slayers, saying that she was now only Nero's sister and could do him no harm. They cut off her head and brought it to Poppaea for their reward.

"The Senate, informed that Octavia was dead, thanked the gods for having again preserved the Emperor."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 18, 2004 - 05:39 am
"Nero himself was now a god. After the death of Agrippina a consul-elect had proposed a temple 'to the deified Nero.' When, in 63, Poppaea bore him a daughter who died soon afterward, the child was voted a divinity. When Tiridates came to receive the crown of Armenia he knelt and worshipped the emperor as Mithras. When Nero built his Golden House he prefaced it with a colossus 120 feet high, bearing the likeness of his head haloed with solar rays that identified him as Phoebus Apollo.

"Actually he was now, at twenty-five, a degenerate with swollen paunch, weak and slender linmbs, fat face, blotched skin, curly yellow hair and dull gray eyes.

"As a god and artist he fretted over the flaws of the palaces he had inherited, and planned to build his own. But the Palatine was crowded, and at its base were on one side the Circus Maximus, on another the Forum, and on the others slums. He mourned that Rome had grown so haphazardly, instead of being scientifically designed like Alexandria or Antioch.

"He dreamed of rebuilding Rome, of being its second founder, and renaming it Neropolis."

Robby

JoanK
February 18, 2004 - 08:56 am
I've always wondered what that picture of Leonardo's was based on.

Scrawler
February 18, 2004 - 10:05 am
Partly to satisfy his own desire and partly to win the support of the Roman people, the Emperor spent money freely on spectacles and circuses and initiated great public works in Rome. He encouraged competitions in music, singing dance, and poetry in which he himself took part. In 62 Burrus dies, and the final restrictions on the Emperor were removed. Seneca retired from the court and Tigellinus took Burrus's place. Nero divorced Octavia on grounds of adultery, exiled her, and later had her killed. Shortly after, he married Poppaea. Nero now seemed to take delight in flaunting the traditions and ideals of Rome.

I wonder how the average Roman reacted to Nero's action. After Octavia was killed the Senate rejoyced publicly that their Emperor had been saved from the plot to kill him, but what were they really thinking?

Justin
February 18, 2004 - 11:00 pm
Scrawler; I read your last post once when Durant said it then again when Robby said it and now a third time when you said it. I would like to converse with you. But I can't when you post what others have said, and for a third time. Talk to us. Share your thoughts and ideas with us. What you have to say is important and we want to read it in your posts.

robert b. iadeluca
February 19, 2004 - 04:16 am
"On July 18, 64, a fire broke out in the Circus Maximus, spread rapidly, burned for nine days, and razed two thirds of the city. Nero was at Antium when the conglagration started. He hurried to Rome and arrived in time to see the Palatine palaces consumed. The Domus Transitoria, which he had just built to connect his palace with the gardens of Maccenas, was one of the first structures to fall.

"The Forum and the Capitol escaped, and the region west of the Tiber. Throughout the remainder of the city countless homes, temples, precious manuscripts, and works of art were destroyed. Thousands of people lost their lives amid falling tenements in the crowded streets. Hundreds of thousands wandered shelterless throug the nights, crazed with horror, and listening to rumors that Nero had ordered the fire, was scattering indendiaries to renew it, and was watching it from the tower of Maccenas while singing his lines on the sack of Troy and accompanying himself on the lyre.

"He energetically guided attempts to control or localize the flames and to provide relief. He ordered all public buildings and the imperial gardens to be thrown open to the destitute. He raised a city of tents on the Field of Mars, requisitioned food from the surrounding country, and arranged for the feeding of the people. He bore without remonstrance the accusatory lampoons and inscriptions of the infuriated populace.

"He cast about for some scapegoat, and found one in a race of men detested for their evil practices, and commonly called Christians. The name was derived from Chrestus who, in the reign of Tiberius, suffered under Pontius Pilate, Procurator of Judea. By that event the sect of which he was the founder received a blow which for a time checked the growth of a dangerous superstition.

"But it revived soon after and spread with recruited vigor not only in Judea but even in the city of Rome, the common sink into which everything infamous and abominable flows like a torrent from all quarters of the world.

"Nero proceeded with his usual artifice. He found a set of proflgate and abandoned wretches who were induced to confess themselves guilty. On the evidence of such men a number of Christians were conficted, not indeed on their evidence of having set the city on fire, but rather on account of their sullen hatred of the whole human race.

"They were put to death with exquisite cruelty, and to the sufferings Nero added mockery and derision. Some were covered with skins of wild beasts, and left to be devoured by dogs. Others were nailed to crosses. Numbers of them were burned alive. Many, covered with inflammable matter, were set on fire to serve as torches during the night.

"At length the brutality of these measures filled every breast with pity. Humanaity relented in favor of the Christians."

My guess is that no one will ever know the true origin of the fire, whether they were the events as described here or otherwise. This portion of Durant's narrative does remind us, however, while we are examining Rome in those days through the eyes of the Emperors, that ever so gradually a particular sect was gaining popularity. Durant will, of course, get to talking about this ind detail in the latter part of this volume.

Robby

moxiect
February 19, 2004 - 10:51 am


Remember the movie "Quo Vadis" - it was based on the description of what Durant just described.

Malryn (Mal)
February 19, 2004 - 03:08 pm
I was searching for paintings of Nero fiddling while Rome burned, and what I found were pages of erotic mosaics from Pompeii.
Isn't that interesting?

Mal

JoanK
February 19, 2004 - 03:31 pm
I guess we'll never know if he set the fire (probably not --why would he, since his own buildings burned) or fiddled, but he certainly did nough else to make him permanently hated. While so sensative of his fame as an artist, he was earning fame as a sadist and crazy.

Ginny
February 19, 2004 - 04:16 pm
You will want to know our Robby has been featured in a nice article in the News, here it is with a wonderful photo Late Bloomer.

Congratulations, Robby!

ginny

JoanK
February 19, 2004 - 05:05 pm
Way to go, ROBBIE. By the way, you wouldn't have been the only one there in my graduate progrm. I was only 54 when I got my graduate degree, but a woman graduated with me who was 80.

robert b. iadeluca
February 19, 2004 - 06:46 pm
Remember, I'm relying on you people to keep me alive through The Story of Civilization. We still have 8 1/2 volumes to go!!

Robby

tooki
February 19, 2004 - 09:43 pm
I couldn't find anything about Rome burning or Nero fiddling either. Although I did find out that he couldn't have fiddled because the violin wasn't invented until much later. At best he would have been playing a lyre and singing.

I did find this Raphael's "Burning of the Borgo."

If the Borgo isn't in Rome, never mind; it's a lovely painting wherever it may be.

robert b. iadeluca
February 20, 2004 - 05:15 am
"When the debris had been cleared away, Nero undertook with visible pleasure the restoration of the city along the lines of his dream. Contributions for this purpose were solicited or elicited from every city in the Empire, and those whose homes had been destroyed were enabled to rebuild out of these funds.

"The new streets were made wide and straight, the new houses were required to have their facades and first stories of stone, and had to be sufficiently separated from other buildings to oppose a protective gap to the spread of fire.

"The springs that flowed beneath the city were channeled into a reserve water supply in case of future conflagrations.

"Out of the imperial Treasury Nero built porticoes along the main thoroughfares, providing a shaded porch for thousands of homes. Antiquarians and old men missed the picturesque, time-hallowed sights of the old city. But soon all agreed that a healthier, safer and fairer Rome had risen from the fire.

"Nero might have earned forgiveness for his crimes had he now molded his life as he had remade his capital. But Poppaea died in 65, in advanced pregnancy, allegedly from a kick in the stomach. Rumor said this had been Nero's answer to her reproaches for having come home late from the races.

"He grieved bitterly over her passing, for he had eagerly awaited an heir. He had her body embalmed with rare spices, gave her a pompous funeral, and delivered a eulogy over the corpse.

"Having found a youth, Sporus, who closely resembled Poppaea, he had him castrated, married him by a formal ceremony, and 'used him in every way like a woman.' Whereupon a wit expressed the wish that Nero's father had had such a wife.

"In the same year he began the building of his Golden House. Its extravgant decoration, cost, and extent -- covering an area that once had sheltered many thousands of the poor -- renewed the resentment of the aristocracy and the suspicions of the plebs."

Nero appears to act nicely on behalf of "things" and not nicely at all to people. And from what I can see, his acts are always impulsive whether it be the possible setting of the fire, the reconstruction of the city, the physical abuse of Poppaea, or the castration of a man.

Robby

Mary W
February 20, 2004 - 12:45 pm
BRAVO ROBBY

Certainly deserved. And it couldn't have happened to a nicer guy. Hank Evans

Malryn (Mal)
February 20, 2004 - 02:18 pm
Nero seems to me to have been uncontrolled and childish in many different ways. If the game didn't go the way he wanted it to, he got rid of it and all the players. "You didn't play the right card so I'll win, so . . ." and he sweeps the whole game onto the floor and stomps on it. We've seen other leaders behave this way, haven't we? I can't remember one with as sadistic a sense of humor, though. Was he an alcoholic, I wonder?

Mal

Justin
February 20, 2004 - 06:02 pm
I want to say that Nero is not worth bothering about as an emperor and that he should be skipped as we skip the next three in order. However, having said that, I am forced to examine his accomplishments, before rejecting him. He rebuilt Rome as a beautiful city and the only way he could do that was to do away with what was there in one fell swoop. Hence the fire. When I ride on the Nomentana today I know that it's broad avenue is due to the efforts of Nero.

On the other hand,there are things that can not be called accomplishments but represent significant shifts in policy and when viewed from a distance let us recognize as a turning point. When he tortured and killed members of a Jewish sect called Christian he swayed the Roman people in favor of the sect. Prior Emperors looked upon the Jews with favor. Later Emperors, experienced revolt among the Jews which later came to a head in 70 CE.

robert b. iadeluca
February 20, 2004 - 06:45 pm
Scrawler:-What are your thoughts of this extraordinary Emperor?

Robby

tooki
February 20, 2004 - 09:27 pm
The Durants remind us at the beginning of this section that Nero "belonged to the Domitii Ahenobarbi family."

The following is taken from a www source. This family was an ancient patrician one whose members achieved notoriety and success in the years of the Republic and Empire. Their roots date back to Latium where they flourished in the Etruscan Period and their bloodline includes King Tarquinius Superbus.

An Ahenobarus was the General who conquered Gallia Transalpina and served as Consul in 122 BC. Another member of the family spent time as a General in Numidia at the beginning of the Mithridatic War.

They were a wealthy family from the old school and money was never a problem, the family owning farms, vineyards, an importing business, real estate and even brothels thought out the Empire. They were also engaged in piracy for many years.

Perhaps Nero should be viewed as part of a long, family tradition that contributed much to the building and maintenance of the empire while despoiling it at the same time.

tooki
February 20, 2004 - 10:09 pm
The family was responsible for THIS famous altar which is now in the Louvre. Circa 100 BC, Marble, L. 560 cm. The Louvre says: "This long relief represents on the left a census, with the registering of citizens on lists, and on the right a religious scene closing the ceremony. This panel is the oldest Roman official relief. It comes from a monument erected on the Field of Mars, by Cnaeus Domiius Ahenobarbus. The juxtaposition of quite different styles characterises the formative phase of Roman art, with its predominant eclectricism."

THIS SITE offers close ups of the panels. Click on the small pictures for large views. It is an amazing relief.

Perhaps this astonishing family deserves some awe at the heights of their accomplishments and the depths of their depravity.

JoanK
February 20, 2004 - 10:17 pm
TOOKI: interesting. I wonder what the image on the top row far right is supposed to be. It looks like a woman with her head and arm on backward holding a bowl while tangled with a horse that turns into a snake and is led by a cherub. I'm sure it made perfect sense to the Romans.

Justin
February 21, 2004 - 12:55 am
The Altar of Domitius Ahenobarbus is indeed and eclectic piece of work. It was erected on the Elbe as an altar dedicated to Augustus. Ahenobarbus penetrated further into Germany than any other Roman. After a march from the Danube to the Elbe he stopped, had the altar prepared, and left it. It was later erected on the Campus Martius.

The relief is not very effective. It is too shallow to suggest the realism we have come to expect from reliefs like the Ara Pacis. The iconography is a mix of the alegorical and contemporary Roman activities. One of the panels depicts census gathering and recording. Other panels depict Augustus in his capacity as Pontifex Maximus sacrificing animals. He is supported and aided by Flamen. Other panels depict Dido and Aeneas as founders of Rome and suggest Augustus as well as Caesar's ancestry.

robert b. iadeluca
February 21, 2004 - 06:18 am
Amazing reliefs! Thank you, Tooki.

Robby

Scrawler
February 21, 2004 - 12:40 pm
I can see the artist in Nero in the fact that he wanted to be surrounded by beautiful things. Was he a madman or like Mal suggests an alcoholic? His mood swings would certainly suggest an alcoholic. I doubt that the Romans thought as we do today towards alcoholics. I can't help but wonder if left on his own Nero wouldn't have made a good musican and would have been happier in his life.

JoanK
February 21, 2004 - 12:55 pm
Here again we have a mad emporor, and the question of whether too much power can bring on madness.

robert b. iadeluca
February 21, 2004 - 01:26 pm
Follwing on Scrawler's comment that she "can't help but wonder if left on his own Nero wouldn't have made a good musican and would have been happier in his life",it makes me think of the maxim that "some people are born great, some achieve greatness, and some have greatness thrust upon them."

Robby

kiwi lady
February 21, 2004 - 01:32 pm
I think Nero had a personality disorder. He dehumanised others. He had no feelings for them as fellow human beings. He was sick.

robert b. iadeluca
February 21, 2004 - 01:47 pm
"Nero left in 66 to compete in the Olympic games and make a concert tour of Greece. 'The Greeks,' he remarked, 'are the only ones who have an ear for music.' At Olympia he drove a guadriga in the races. He was thrown from the car and was nearly crushed to death. Restored to his chariot he continued the contest for awhile, but gave up before the end of the course.

"The judges, however, knew an emperor from an athlete and awarded him the crown of victory.

"Overcome with happiness when the crowd applauded him, he announced that thereafter not only Athens and Sparta but all Greece should be free -- i.e. exempt from any tribute to Rome. The Greek cities accommodated him by running the Olympian, Pythian, Nemean, and Isthmian games in one year. He responded by taking part in all of them as singer, harpist, actor, or athlete. He obeyed the rules of the various competitions carefully, was all courtesy to his opponents, and gave them Roman citizenship as consolation for his invariable victories.

"Amid his tour he received news that Judea was in revolt and that all the West was hot with rebellion. He sighed and continued his itinerary. When he sang in a theater, 'no one was allowed to leave, even for the most urgent reasons. And so it was that some women gave birth there, while some feigned death to be carried out.' At Corinth he ordered work started on a canal to cut the Isthmus as Caesar had planned. The task was begun but was laid aside during the turmoil of the following year.

"Alarmed by further reports of uprisings and plots, Nero returned to Italy (67), entered Rome in a formal triumph, and showed, as trophies, the 1808 prizes he had won in Greece."

The King can do no wrong.

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
February 21, 2004 - 02:19 pm
How about schizophrenia? Robby, you are the expert on personality disorders, why don't you tell us.

Malryn (Mal)
February 21, 2004 - 02:48 pm
Nero certainly doesn't sound like a schizophrenic to me, just based on various schizophrenics I have known in my varied career.  ; )

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
February 21, 2004 - 03:24 pm
The term "schizophrenic" is often mistakenly used to mean a "split personality." A schizophrenic is "split off", if we can use that less than accurate word, from reality. Nero knew who he was. He knew where he was. He knew the time of day or the date of the year. He knew the names of his acquaintances. He was maniacal but so were many people of power in that era.

I don't necessarily see any psychosis -- merely a spoiled playboy with too much power.

Robby

Justin
February 21, 2004 - 06:03 pm
Robby; Nero- a spoiled playboy with too much power? Are you suggesting that were he not an emperor or the son of Agrippina and Domitius (who was one cruel and aggressive son of...), he might well have been an ok member of Roman society. I wonder if Scrawler is not suggesting the same thing. If we take away his parents and give him a less powerful role in life, would he be different-perhaps an artist or an athlete.

JoanK
February 21, 2004 - 06:17 pm
A spoiled playboy with too much power? Without the power we never would have heard of him, but it seems he was more than spoiled. Even by the standards of the day, he seems very violent.

Fifi le Beau
February 21, 2004 - 09:21 pm
Nero might well have tried his hand at being an artist, athlete, musician, actor, but I cannot fathom him excelling at all these professions, much less winning them without the cloak of Emperor.

How would he have reacted to losing as a commoner? I think he would have reacted with violence, and tried to eliminate the opposition in any way possible including murder, just as he did as Emperor.

Being Emperor does not make one a killer, but being a killer can make one an Emperor as we have seen from this series.

Nero taking the winning prize for a contest that he did not win, and if sane knew he didn't win, shows his flagrant narcissism.

His complete lack of empathy, something all serial killers seem to possess, puts him in a class with them in my opinion. I see him as a danger to society whether common man or Emperor.

The thousands of people who loved their wife, husband, children, and worked to make a better life lived during this time also. They are not written about, but their ancestors cover the globe and have made the world what it is today. Any humanity that the world has now is because of them, and not the Nero's of the world.

......

Justin
February 21, 2004 - 11:51 pm
I certainly agree with Fifi. Nero exhibits a complete lack of empathy for other humans. She points to serial killers as an example of people who also exhibit a lack of empathy. Are there any others? Is this a characteristic of the Sociopath? How about the businessmen in the news today? They are greedy, yes, but also, as in the case of Enron, they forbid employees to sell shares when the executives were dumping theirs. They were at the same time contributing heavily to our old friend ...

Malryn (Mal)
February 22, 2004 - 03:10 am
Good morning, ROBBY. I'm up earlier than you are today. I'll have breakfast on the table in a jiffy. A bowl of vegetable soup, toasted homemade bread and a fruit plate all right with you? I haven't had breakfast with anyone but my little black cat for so long that I'll probably talk your ear off.

Hey, gang, Nero doesn't seem like a sociopath to me; he seems spoiled brattish. If he didn't get his way, or things weren't going the way he wanted them to, he threw big temper tantrums. Because of his enormous power, his temper tantrums were of mammoth proportions. His lack of conscience might be due to the fact that everyone kowtowed to him; gave him all the prizes and told him he was super-great wonderful. He was convinced that, like a deity, he could do no wrong.

What that kid needed was to be grounded for a good long time after a good whack on the bottom. Maybe Agrippina should be, too. After all, she's the one who started this pattern, wasn't she? It reminds me of the roles bratty Jane Withers played in goody-goody Shirley Temple movies -- the kid you loved to hate.

Does the good Nero did Rome excuse his behavior? What do historians say about his effect on the world and civilization?

Mal

JoanK
February 22, 2004 - 03:31 am
Good morning MAL. I'll have breakfast with you, it sounds good. But I am just going to bed.

I agree that Nero was spoiled rotten. But surely there is more. He is the little boy who pulls wings off flys grown up.

Malryn (Mal)
February 22, 2004 - 04:15 am
The bad little boy never grew up?

Are you writing a book, JOAN? That's the only thing besides a torrid love affair that I know of that keeps people up all night.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
February 22, 2004 - 05:26 am
If any of you are looking for a mental psychosis, there is AntiSocial Personality Disorder which used to be called Psychopath or Sociopath. The diagnostic criteria are:-

A - A pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others occurring since age 15, as indicated by three (or more) of the following

1 - Failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest.
2 - Deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure.
3 - Impulsivity or failure to plan ahead.
4 - Irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults
5- Reckless disregard for safety of self or others
6 - Consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations.

B - The individual is at least age 18 years.

C - There is evidence of Conduct Disorder with onset before age 15.

There is also a disorder called Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

A - A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

1 - Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g. exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
2 - Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love.
Believes that he or she is 'special' and unique and can only be understood by, or should be associated with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
4 - Requires excessive admiration
5 - Has a sense of entitlement, i.e. unreasonable eexpectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
6 - Is interpersonally exploitative, i.e. takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
7 - Lacks empathy, is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
8 - Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her
9 - Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes.

Please note that both of these are PERSONALITY DISORDERS. This means that, as they say, there is a "pervasive pattern." It is something that lasted probably from childhood. Insurance companies do not pay for these disorders as they can not be "cured." With very rare exceptions, they are there for life.

OK, Psychologists, what is your diagnosis of Nero?

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
February 22, 2004 - 07:33 am
Those two Personality disorders Robby indicate that Nero was a Narcissist to extreme proportion.

One thing I am wondering is that would it be possible for such a man to rise to power in a Democracy such as in America? Personally I doubt it very much. Not that America does not have its own aristocracy mind you, it has multinationals who are the real power behind the throne disguised as legitimate businesses. They dictate their goals to 'you know who' and you will be powerless to contravene the effect it will have on your lives.

A new brand of dictatorship that you will have to watch for in the future but I have confidence that the people will not let that happen here.

Eloïse

tooki
February 22, 2004 - 07:50 am
I said most of this earlier in a post that has already been archived. I am repeating it since I disagree with psychologizing history and historical figures because it doesn't help understanding.

I don't think it is madness or a psychological defect, nor the thin blood that comes from over breeding, or the wretched women behind the men that made these emperors behave the way they did.

After the downfall of the Republic and the subsequent institution of the Emperorship, it became necessary to force one's claim to it because there was no law of succession. There were so many possible heirs that scheming, plotting, and killing were the only ways to get it. Thus, to begin with, a claimant had to be ruthlessly ambitious, unscrupulous and generally a bad, even evil guy. There is nothing about being evil that postulates mental illness. However, the modern temperment would rather think of mental illness than evilness.

The clew to this evilness is the complete lack of thinking and reflection. As Hannah Arendt observed in her book about the Eichmann trial, the banality of evil is about the thoughtlessness that allows it to happen.

The habit of thinking about things, she observed and I agree, means examing and reflecting upon whatever come to pass. This kind of thinking seems to condition men against evildoing. To have the moral depth necessary to contemplate one's behavior, thinking is necessary.

These trashy Roman rulers, especially Nero, are embodiments of thoughtlessness. There was nothing in their environment to inhibit them, thus they were able to indulge their evil whims. At the same time they were able to indulge their self gratification whims, such as building a city, Rome, in honor of themselves.

Sick? I think not. Evil? Yes.

kiwi lady
February 22, 2004 - 10:44 am
Well I diagnose him as number 2. There is more to Nero than being spoiled. There are many spoiled kids who are not anything like Nero.

kiwi lady
February 22, 2004 - 10:47 am
I know someone with a personality disorder (who I regard as a very sick individual or a having a genetic aberration maybe) the person I know who has ruined many lives is not regarded as certifiable.

robert b. iadeluca
February 22, 2004 - 10:49 am
Durant continues:--

"Tragedy was rapidly catching up with Nero's comedy. In March, 68, the Gallic governor of Lyons, Julius Vindex, announced the independence of Gaul. When Nero offered 2,500,000 sesterces for his head, Vindex retorted, 'He who brings me Nero's head may have mine in return.' Preparing to take the field against this virile antagonist, Nero's first care was to choose wagons to carry along with him his musical instruments and theatrical effects.

"But in April word came that Galba, commander of the Roman army in Spain, had joined fortunes with Vindex and was marching towad Rome. Hearing that the Praetorian Guard was ready to abandon Nero for proper remuneration, the Senate proclaimed Galba emperor.

"Nero put some poison into a small box and, so armed, fled from his Golden House to the Servilian Gardens on the road to Ostia. He asked such officers of the Guard as were in the palace to accompany him. All refused, and one quoted to him a line of Virgil: 'Is it, then, so hafd to die?' He could not believe that the omnipotence which had ruined him had suddenly ceased.

"He sent appeals for help to various friends, but none replied. He went down to the Tiber to drown himself, but his courage failed him. Phaon, one of his freedmen, offered to conceal him in his villa on the Via Salaria. Nero grasped at the proposal, and rode through the dark four miles out from the center of Rome. He spent that night in Phaon's cellar, clad in a soiled tunic, sleepless and hungry, and trembling at every sound.

"Phaon's courier brought word that the Senate had declared Nero a public enemy, had ordered his arrest, and had decreed that he should be punished 'after the ancient manner.' Nero asked what this was. He was told: 'The condemned man is stripped, is fastened to a post by a fork passing through his neck, and is then beaten to death.'

"Terrified, he tried to stab himself but he made the mistake of testing the poniard's point first and found it disconcertingly sharp. He mourned: Qualis artifex pereo! What an artist dies in me!

"As a new day dawned he heard the clatter of horses. The Senate's soldiers had tracked him down. Quoting a verse of poetry -- 'Hark!now strikes upon my ear the trampling of swift couriers' -- he drove a dagger into his throat. His hand faltered, and his freedman Epaphroditus helped him to press the blade home.

"He had begged his companions to keep his corpse from being mutilated, and Galba's agents granted the wish. His old nurses, and Acte, his former mistress, buried him in the vaults of the Domitii (68). Many of the populace rejoiced at his death and ran about Rome with liberty caps on their heads. But many more mourned him, for he had been as generous to the poor as he had been recklessly cruel to the great. They lent eager hearing to the rumor that he was not really dead but was fighting his way back to Rome.

"When they had reconciled themselves to his passing, they came for many months to strew flowers before his tomb."

Robby

Scrawler
February 22, 2004 - 11:36 am
Can good exist without evil? Can evil exist without good? I think evil can exist without good, but not the other way around. Evil feeds off of good. Therefore if we accept that Nero was evil he needed the good people around him in order to feed his fantasies. Was he a natural born killer or did his environment create the killer extinct in him?

I've been wondering the same thing Eloise, "would it be possible for such a man to rise to power in a Democracy such as America?"

Thanks Robbie for the explanaions of personality disorders.

Justin
February 22, 2004 - 01:56 pm
By selecting a personality disorder, we let Nero off the hook. We classify him. Put him in box and say, yea, "he was one of those." He was a narcissistic whosis. Sadistic he was. Misguided he was. But his evil behavior was approved. He was encouraged by Tigellinus to find pleasure in the torture of people. He was also victim of the system and his mama. He wanted approval and by wasting (that's a good word for his killing)people he received it. It is much like hitting a ball with a bat. The player hits the ball. We applaud. The player does it again. We applaud again. The player is confident of doing the right thing successfully.

robert b. iadeluca
February 22, 2004 - 04:16 pm
"Servius Sulpicius Galba reached Rome in June of 68. He was of noble birth, for he traced his lineage on his father's side to Jupiter, and on his mother's to Pasiphae, wife of Minos and the bull. In this year of his exaltation he was already bald, and his hands and feet were so crooked with gout that he could not wear a shoe or hold a book. He had the usual vices, normal and abnormal, but it was not these that made his reign so brief. What shocked army and populace were his economy of the public funds and his strict administration of justice.

"When he ruled tht those who had received gifts or pensions from Nero must return nine tenths to the Treasury, a thousand new enemies arose, and Galba's days ran out.

"A bankrupt senator, Marcus Otho, announced that he could pay his debts only by becoming emperor. The Guards declared for him, marched into the Forum, and met Galba riding in a litter. Galba offered his neck unresisting to their swords. They cut off his head, his arms, his lips. One of them carried the head to Otho, but as he could not hold it well by the sparse and blood-wet hair, he thrust his thumb into the mouth.

"The Senate hastened to accept Otho, just as Roman armies in Germany and Egypt were hailing as emperors their respective generals -- Aulus Vitellius and Titus Flavius Vespasianus. Vitellius invaded Italy with his hardy legions, and swept away the weak resistance of the northern garrisons and the Praetorian Guard.

"Otho killed himself after a reign of ninety-five days, and Vitellius mounted the throne."

Has any one considered the possibility that the whole Roman Empire was psychotic? Or perhaps all of them evil?

Robby

JoanK
February 22, 2004 - 05:02 pm
The only claim to fame that Otho has with me is that he showed up in a NY Times crossword puzzle as the emporor after Galba. Thanks to Durant I didn't assume that a four letter emporer ending in "O" was Nero, but looked it up.

Malryn (Mal)
February 22, 2004 - 05:04 pm
I think what we're witnessing is the descent of barbarianism and chaos on the civilization called Rome.

Mal

JoanK
February 22, 2004 - 05:08 pm
MAL: good point. If these were the civilized people, there isn't much left for the barberians to be barberic about.

tooki
February 22, 2004 - 09:05 pm
The Durant quote that heads this discussion, "Civilization begins where chaos and insecurity ends," fails to tell us what to call it when chaos and insecurity arise like the Phoenix.

Hans Delbruck, a 1920's German historian, said, "Civilization refines the human being, makes him more sensitive, and in doing so it decreases his military worth, not only his bodily strength, but his physical courage."

The Roman Empire is fast approaching the time when its sensitivity is heightened and its physical courage is diminished. These conditions make it ready prey for a takeover.

Coming soon to a theater near you, Mel Gibson's, "The Passion of Christ."

Malryn (Mal)
February 22, 2004 - 09:32 pm
What's that supposed to mean, TOOKI, I mean about the movie? You do like Mel Gibson's rewrite of history, or you don't?

Mal

Justin
February 22, 2004 - 10:52 pm
Ever since Mel Gibson was crucified in some Scottish film he has had the urge to deal with other crucifixions. Spartacus has been done. Jesus has been done too for that matter- over and over in fact. There is a place in Germany called Obergammerung where the thing is done every ten years with local actors.

If Mel points out that the crucifixion was a political thing and not a religious event, he has my vote. The line of Saul, David and Solomon were called messiahs. Anyone calling himself messiah would be seen as a trouble maker by the Romans, by their friends in the Temple hierarchy and by Herod.

Malryn (Mal)
February 23, 2004 - 01:36 am
Oberammergau

JUSTIN, Gibson's film makes the Jews, not the Romans, responsible for the crucifixion of Christ. It will be interesting to see what Will Durant has to say about that event. It will also be interesting to see reactions to Gibson's film. I heard about the Passion Play in Oberammergau when I was a little girl in Sunday School.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
February 23, 2004 - 06:09 am
"It does not speak well for the Roman military system that so senile a man as Galba should have commanded in Spain, or so slothful an epicurean as Vitellius in Germany. He was a gourmand who thought of the Principate chiefly as a feast, and made a banquet of every meal. He governed in the intervals. As these grew shorter he left state affairs to his freedman Asiaticus, who in four months became one of the richest men in Rome.

"When Vitellius learned that Vespasian's general Antonius was leading an army into Italy to dethrone him, he delegated his defense to subordinates and continue to feast. In October of 69 the troops of Antonius defeated the defenders of Vitellius at Cremona in one of the bloodiest battles of ancient times. They marched into Rome, where the remnants of Vitellius' legions fought bravely for him whle he took refuge in his palace.

"The populace, 'flocked in crowds to behold the conflict, as if a scene of carnage were no more than a public spectacle exhibited for their amusement.' While the battle raged some of them plundered shops and homes, and prostitutes plied their trade.

"The soldiers of Antonius triumphed, killed without quarter, and pillaged without stint. The mob, as ready as history to applaud the victors, helped them to ferret out their enemies. Vitellius, dragged from his concealment, was led half naked through the city with a noose around his neck, was pelted with dung, was tortured without haste, and at last, in a moment of mercy, was slain (December, 69).

"The corpse was drawn through the streets with a hook and flung into the Tiber."

So much for more progress toward civilization.

Robby

tooki
February 23, 2004 - 07:48 am
to quote from W.B. Yeats' poem "The Second Coming," which captures for many folks a modern sense of apprehension.

"...twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?


If anyone wants, I'll post the whole poem. And I promise not to bring the poem up again or quote from it, even though I know it by heart and passages from it spring to mind. Anyway, I have lots of other Yeats' poems to quote from: poems for any occasion!

Scrawler
February 23, 2004 - 10:40 am
Has anyone considered the possibility that the whole Roman Empire was psychotic? Or perhaps all of them evil?

Evil and good exists in all of us, but for most of us good wins over evil. It is this struggle that makes us who we are. But what would happen if in this struggle evil won. Was the Roman emperors psychotic or evil? Perhaps they were a little of both. Unfortunately, we can't always see the evil in people and sometimes we don't want to see the evil in them. How else can we explain the rise of such people?

Justin
February 23, 2004 - 06:34 pm
What happened to Vitellius should have happened to Nero. Unfortunately Nero had a freedman who was capable of helping him out by plunging the knife into his throat. After so much casual human damage by Nero I want revenge. He deserves a little of the same.

Four emperors in a year is extravagant but to be expected in an aristocracy deprived of senatorial power and bent on pleasure.

robert b. iadeluca
February 23, 2004 - 06:50 pm
Justin, you don't sound very civilized.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 23, 2004 - 07:27 pm
The GREEN quotes move us forward --

"What a relief to meet a man of sense, ability, and honor! Vespasian, busy directing the war against Judea, took his time in coming to occupy the dangerous eminence that his solders had won for him, and which the Senate hurriedly confirmed. Perceiving that he would have to repeat the labors of Augustus, he modeled his behavior and policy upon those of that prince.

"He made his peace with the Senate and re-established constitutional government. He freed or recalled those who had been convicted of lese-majeste under Nero, Galba, Otho, and Vitellius. He reorganized the army, limited the number and power of the Praetorian Guard, appointed competent generals to suppress revolts in the provinces, and was soon able to close the Temple of Janus as a sign and pledge of peace.

"He was sixty, but in the unimpaired vigor of his powerful frame. He was built foursquare in body and character, with a broad, bald, and massive head, coarse but commanding features, and small sharp eyes that pierced every sham. He had none of the stigmata of genius. He was merely a man of firm will and practical intelligence.

"He had been born in a Sabine village near Reate, of purely plebian stock. His accession was a fourfold revolution. A commoner had reached the throne, a provincial army had overcome the Praetorians and crowned its candidate, the Flavians had succeeded the Julio-Claudians, and the simple habits and virtues of the Italian bourgeois replaced, at the court of the emperor, the epicurean wastefulness of the city-bred descendants of Augustus and Livia."

Finally, a breaking away from the genes that led to such destruction.

Robby

tooki
February 23, 2004 - 09:42 pm
Looking Strong

Looking Like A Leader

Looking Like A Roman

tooki
February 23, 2004 - 09:48 pm
Good Solid Flavians

Malryn (Mal)
February 24, 2004 - 04:07 am
Temple of Vespasian by Piranesi. Click NEXT at the top of the page to see some fine photographs of Roman ruins

Malryn (Mal)
February 24, 2004 - 04:38 am
The photographs of Rome which I linked above are fabulous. Page after page after page of them. I have written to the photographer and owner of the website, Kalervo Koskimies, and told him that I posted a link to his Roman photographs in this discussion of Will and Ariel Durant's The Story of Civiization.

Koskimies is in Finland. If you click the link to his home page at the bottom of the page I linked, it takes you to an index of photographs of Finland, Berlin and Prague, as well as some of contemporary Rome. I'll let you know if he responds to my email.

Mal

Hats
February 24, 2004 - 07:00 am
Mal, the photographs of Rome are "fabulous." I am glad you included this link. I can see some of the intricate detail. I think it shows beautiful craftmanship. Were slaves used to erect these buildings? This has probably been covered earlier in the Durant books.

Robby, I enjoyed reading the article about you. You are a inspiration to others that it is never to late to succeed and to go after a dream.

Éloïse De Pelteau
February 24, 2004 - 04:29 pm
Mal, I like black and white drawings sometimes better than photos. This one of the Vespasian Temple is great.

Malryn (Mal)
February 24, 2004 - 04:45 pm
ELOISE, there are many other drawings on that website. I spent an hour this morning looking at photographs and drawings there, and didn't finish viewing them there are so many.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
February 24, 2004 - 06:57 pm
"Vespasian never forgot, or sought to conceal, his modest ancestry. When expectant genealogists traced his family back to a companion of Hercules he laughed them into silence. Periodically he returned to the home of his birth to enjoy its rustic ways and fare, and he would not allow anything there to be changed. He scorned luxury and laziness, ate the food of peasants, fasted one day in each month, and declared war upon extravagance.

"When a Roman whom he had nominated for office came to him smelling of perfume, he said, 'I would rather you smelled of garlic' and withdrew the nomination. He made himself easily accessible, talked and lived on a footing of equality with the people, enjoyed jokes at his own expense, and allowed everyone great freedom in criticizing his conduct and his character. Having discovered a conspiracy against him he forgave the plotters, saying that they were fools not to realize what a burden of cares a ruler wore.

"He lost his good temper in one case only. Helvidius Priscus, restored to the Senate from the exile into which Nero had sent him, demanded the restoration of the Republic, and reviled Vespasian without concealment of restraint. Vespasian asked him not to attend the Senate if he proposed to continue such abuse. Helvidius refused. Vespasian banished him and tarnished an excellent reign by ordering him put to death. He regretted the action later, and for the rest, says Suetonius, showed 'the greatest patience under the frank language of his friends and the impudence of philosophers.

"These latter were not so much Stoics as Cynics, philosphical anarchists who felt that all government was an imposition and attacked every emperor."

Robby

tooki
February 24, 2004 - 09:30 pm
The Legions of the Roman army were disorganized when Vespasian became Emperor. "The Flavian reforms of 70 AD were probably the greatest changes to be made to the Roman Army since the Augustan reorganization." The formation, maintainance, and deployment of the Roman Legions is discussed HERE.

It is worth scanning this site because it contains details about the Roman Legions that Durant hasn't covered.

robert b. iadeluca
February 25, 2004 - 04:25 am
"To get fresh blood into a Senate depleted by family limitation and civil war, Vespasian secured appointment as censor, brought to Rome a thousand distinguished families from Italy and the wstern provinces, enrolled them in the patrician or equestrian orders, and over many bitter protests filled out the Senate from their ranks.

"The new aristocracy, under the stimulus of his example, improved Roman morals and society. It was not spoiled yet by idle wealth, nor yet so removed from labor and the soil as to disdain the routine tasks of life and administration. It had something of the emperor's order and decency of life.

"Out of it came those rulers who, after Domitian, gave Rome good government for a century. Conscious of the evils that had flowed from the use of freedmen as imperial executives, Vespasian replaced most of them with men from this provincial infilration and from Rome's expanding business class.

"With their help he accomplished in nine years a miracle of rehabilitation."

A "common" plebe uses the aristocracy to improve morals and society. Interesting.

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
February 25, 2004 - 05:34 am
"Vespasian secured appointment as censor, brought to Rome a thousand distinguished families from Italy and the western provinces, enrolled them in the patrician or equestrian orders, and over many bitter protests filled out the Senate from their ranks."

"The new aristocracy....."

Those distinguished families, in my opinion, were not aristocrats as I understand the term, that is hereditary, but were some respected and wealthy citizens who had risen in society in trade and land ownership through their own efforts and Vespasian having been raised in that environment wanted an entourage made up of men like him. THEN those became the "new aristocracy".

Robby says: "A "common" plebe uses the aristocracy to improve morals and society" These new aristocrats were also common plebs to start with just as Vespasian was raised as.

Eloïse

JoanK
February 25, 2004 - 09:08 am
This has been a common pattern through history. After all, an aristocracy though hereditary, has to start with someone. The English aristocrats are decendants of businessmen who were given their title by some monarch or other.

Malryn (Mal)
February 25, 2004 - 09:54 am
In the United States artistocracy is spelled M O N E Y. It doesn't matter whether it's inherited wealth or new money as long as it's money. I suspect the same was true in Ancient Rome.

Mal

Scrawler
February 25, 2004 - 10:10 am
Vespasian reminds me of Abraham Lincoln in our own country.

JoanK
February 25, 2004 - 10:15 am
MAL: not quite true. New money is not quite accepted into the inner circle. It takes a few generations of polishing, maybe intermarraige with "old money" before they truly belong. There is no formal aristocracy, but an informal one.

There are two things involved here with being the aristocracy: Status and power. The above holds true with status, not quite as true with power. It's hard to trace where the power lies. I think the elite try to keep the power with them, and when they can't, co-opt the powerful into the elite. In England, the power shifted from the landed aristocracy to the industrialists, who were then brought into the aristocracy. The rich and powerful want that status and will do a lot to get it. Money is what you have, but status is who you are. Further, status is the one thing they can pass down to all there children, especially the daughters.

JoanK
February 25, 2004 - 11:01 am
I should have said there are three things involved in being in the aristocracy: status power and money. Money is a given to enter, but not enough: you have to have the right life style. And Aristocrats who have lost their money try to hang onto the status, through life style. Literature id full of new rich trying to get in and new poor trying to stay in. The theory of status was developed by Max Weber, watching the German aristocracy which had lost their money and power starve all week so they could serve lobster to their friends at Sunday tea.

tooki
February 25, 2004 - 04:13 pm
He may have developed the theory of status. But he also developed the Theory of Bureaucracy, its orgin, development and continuance. And he approved of bureaucracies, thinking they were the best way to operate a government. Thus, some of us might take issue with his theories.

tooki
February 25, 2004 - 04:23 pm
Patricians: The orginal "fathers," those descended from early landowners and political leaders.

Equites: Businessmen, qualified for this class by property holdings.

Plebians: commoners, poor farmers and traders.

Capite censi/Prolearii: citizens who were free, but poor and not allowed to vote.

Slave: Could become a Proletarii.

Members of these classes desired entry into the higher classes. This list indicates the entry into higher classes was money. Old patrician money might have more status than new equite money, but it too would get old and ridden with status.

Listing from "The World of Order and Organization."

JoanK
February 25, 2004 - 04:30 pm
TOOKI: do you disagree with Weber's theories of status on some grounds? Or do you just not like him?

Justin
February 25, 2004 - 08:08 pm
Members of the patrician class were originally land owners and farmers. Commercial people held no status in the initial Roman social hierarchy. Now for the first time businessmen are invited to become patricians or equites. Later in the Middle Ages, nobility will be granted to landowners who round up a posse and come to the aid of kings. The practice developed into the feudal system.

Today, in the US, businessmen play a large role in government. They both supply candidates for office and support candidates for office. Restricting the role of business people in government has recently come with reelection contribution reforms.

tooki
February 25, 2004 - 09:41 pm
Ah, shucks; you've found me out. I have problems with the patriarchal posture of most of those late 19th-early 20th century German theorists amongst whom I number Freud, Popper, Wittgenstein, and so on. But, other than thinking them bigots, narrow minded, pompous, and long winded, their ideas usually have some grains of truth.

JoanK
February 26, 2004 - 07:40 am
TOOKI: good point. Can't disagree with you there. Especially the long-winded part.

tooki
February 26, 2004 - 08:00 am
While those people - I should just say "men" - trained in business bring to government certain skills, they also bring a loyalty to the corporate world and business interests. This seems to be as true now as it was for the Romans.

Surely most of you remember Robert McNamara who came to the government from General Motors (and has a recent mea culpa book out). He said, though this may not be an exact quote, it's close, "What's good for GM is good for the country."

Boy, was he ever wrong!

robert b. iadeluca
February 26, 2004 - 01:11 pm
"Vespasian calculated that 40,000,000,000 sesterces were needed to transform bankruptcy into solvency. To raise this sum he taxed almost everything -- raised the provincial tribute -- reimposed it upon Greece -- recaptured and let public lands -- sold royal palaces and estates -- and insisted upon such economuy that the citizens denounced him as a miserly peasant.

"A tax was placed even upon the use of the public urinals that adorned ancient like modern Rome. His son Titus protested against such undignified revenue, but the old Emperor held some coins of it to the youth's nose and said, 'See, my chld, if they smell.' Suetonious accuses him of adding to the imperial income by selling offices, and by promoting the most rapacious of his provincial appointees so that they might be swollen with spoils when he suddently summoned thenm, examined their transactions, and confiscated their gains.

"The crafty financier, however, used none of the proceeds for himslf, but poured them all into the economic recovery, architectural adornment, and cultural advancement of Rome.

"It remained for this blunt soldier to establish the first system of state education in classical antiquity. He ordered that certain qualified teachers of Latin and Greek literature and rhetoric should thereafter be paid out of public funds and should receive a pension after twenty years of service. Perhaps the old skeptic felt that teachers had some share in forming public opinion and would speak better of a government that paid their way.

"Probably for like reasons he restored many of the ancient temples, even in rural districts. He rebuilt the Temple of Jupiter, Juno, and Minrva, which had been burned down by the Vitellians over his soldiers' heads -- raised a majestic shrine to Pax, the goddess of peace -- and began the most renowned of Roman buildings, the Colosseum.

"The upper classes mourned as they saw their fortunes taxed to provide public works for the state and wages for proletaires. And the workers were not particularly grateful. He roused the people to an energetic campaign for cleaning away the debris left by the recent war, and he himself carried the first load.

"When an inventor showed him plans for a hoisting machine that would greatly reduce the need for human labor in these enterprises of removal and construction, he refused to use it, saying, 'I must feed my poor.'

"In this moratorium on invention Vespasiana recognized the problem of technological unemployment, and decided against an industrial revolution."

The first example of public education and pension for teachers -- but against the industrial revolution.

Robby

Justin
February 26, 2004 - 03:28 pm
Tooki: Sorry, old friend. It was Charley Schwabb who said " What's Good etc. McNamara was Henry's number one boy. He promoted the Falcon as competition for the VW Bug. Henry "Hank the Deuce" Ford cried when Kennedy announced McNamara's appointment as Secretary of Defense. We should have cried as well for he led us and Johnson into escalating the Viet Namn War.

tooki
February 26, 2004 - 09:15 pm
Whatever! Are you sure? Of course you are. I bow to your recall powers. It was evil, whoever said it.

And while I have your attention, Justin, I might mention that Monteverdi's opera, "The Cornation of Poppaea" is still a viable piece of music. Josha Bell, current boy genius of the violin, has a recent CD out where he plays exerpts which he has arranged. I was so startled that it was Monteverdi's opera that I neglected to really listen to the music. Thus I am unable to certify as to its excellence or lack thereof.

Justin
February 26, 2004 - 10:46 pm
The style of presentation in La Coronazione was hard to get used to. We are used to recitative in conversation and even arias delivered as communication within a group. But in Monteverdi's day singers delivered as though they were alone on the stage. He made the first steps toward communion but those steps were a long way from today's interactive presentations. I just can't imagine Rossini's Barber without interaction. Addio, addio, addio,... et Amore, Amore, Amore,...

robert b. iadeluca
February 27, 2004 - 05:22 am
"The provinces prospered as never before. Their wealth was now twice as great -- at least in monetary terms -- as under Augustus, and they bore the increased tribute without injury. Vespasian sent the able Agricola to govern Britain, and delegated to Titus the task of ending the revolt of the Jews. Titus captured Jerusalem and returned to Rome with all the honors that usually crown superior killing.

"A spectacular triumph led a long procession of captives and spoils through the streets, and a famous arch was raised to commemorate the victory. Vespasian was proud of his son's success but disturbed by the fact that Titus had brought home a pretty Jewish princess, Berenice, as his mistress, and wished to marry her. Again capta ferum victorem cepit.

"The Emperor could not see why one should marry a mistress. He himself, after the death of his wife, lived with a freedwoman without troubling to wed her. When this Caenis died, he distributed his love among several concubines.

"He was convinced that the succession to his power must be settled before his death, as the alternative to anarchy. The Senate agreed, but demanded that he should name and adopt 'the best of the best' -- presumably a senator. Vespasian answered that he reckoned that Titus was the best. To ease the situation the young conqueror dismissed Berenice, and sought consolation in promiscuity.

"The Emperor thereupon associated Titus with himself on the throne and delegated to him an increasing share in the government.

"In 79 Vespasian again visited Reate. While in the Sabine country he drank copiously the purgative waters of Lake Cutilia and was seized with severe diarrhea. Though confined to his bed he continued to receive embassies and perform the other duties of his office. Feeling the hand of death upon him he nevertheless kept his bluff humor. Vae! puto deus fio, he remarked -- 'Alas, I think I am becoming a god.' Almost fainting, he struggled to his feet with the help of attendants, saying, 'An emperor should die standing.'

With these words he concluded a full life of sixty-nine years and a beneficent reign of ten."

So tradition wins out over love and a new emperor assumes the throne.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
February 27, 2004 - 06:33 am
Photographs of Rome

An arch of Vespasian

tooki
February 27, 2004 - 07:56 am
There are a couple of real zingers here.

"The Emperor could not see why one should marry a mistress."

"...the young conqueror dismissed Berencie, and sought consolation in promiscuity."

I suppose Durant is being witty because, after Nero, he'll excuse Vespasian such trivial moral peccadillos as not taking love seriously. Or, good God, maybe Durant is indicating his own moral take on mistresses and promiscuity. Fie upon him!

Malryn (Mal)
February 27, 2004 - 08:06 am
Or . . . he's stating historical facts. Did you ever think of that?

Mal

Justin
February 27, 2004 - 02:16 pm
I read a French translation of a novel a few years ago about Berenice, her young brother the King of the Jews, and Titus during and after the attack on Jerusalem. I don't remember the author or the title but it was well done.

Scrawler
February 27, 2004 - 02:30 pm
Care to guess why he refused technology but created public education and pensions for teachers? I can't believe that it was just because he wanted to feed the poor. From the sounds of it he had a fine mind that helped put Rome back on its feet. I can't help but wonder how history would have progressed if the industrial revolution had started with the Romans.

I often wondered what McNamara had on Kennedy that got him that appointment. Wasn't it his recomendations that sent troops to Vietnam in the first place?

Justin
February 27, 2004 - 05:39 pm
Kennedy thought McNamara was brilliant. He offered him Secretary of the Treasury first. Mc Namara turned him down. He had already reached the presidency of Ford and Henry Two (known as Hank the Deuce)thought he was the guy to carry the Ford organization to new heights for years to come. Kennedy really wanted this guy in his cabinet because he was an articulate achiever, and because Galbraith recomended him, not because any favors were owed either way.

Yes, Mc Namara thought intervention in Viet Namn was the right thing to do to block the Chinese and Hanoi from spreading their influence in East Asia. He supported expanding our involvement in that conflict when he served with Johnson. His recent book suggests that expanding the conflict might not have been the best alternative.

In my view, intervention in the internal affairs of other countries is dangerously close to empire building and the wrong activity for America. Kennedy intended to pull our advisors out after we realized that the South could never defend itself. His assassination was truly a disaster for the US.

Malryn (Mal)
February 27, 2004 - 07:50 pm
JUSTIN, how do you relate that to Vespasian?

Mal

Justin
February 27, 2004 - 10:46 pm
Scrawler and I share the responsibility for the topic, Mal. It's just one of those extraneous things that pop up now and then. The emperors are getting better, more responsible. Of course, almost anyone would be better than Gaius and Nero.

Justin
February 28, 2004 - 12:42 am
Vespasian dies without help- the first to go unaided in many years. "Aw shucks, I am about to become a god. Get me on my feet fellas so I can die like an emperor." I wonder which emperor he had in mind. Most of them died on their knees or in a poisoned ball of pain. A few went with a hole in the belly.

Titus, during the reign of Vespasian , finished putting down the revolt in Judea and was rewarded with a triumph and an arch that still stands. The side of the Jews is given short shrift by Durant. Let us hope that more time is given later to the problems in Judea.

robert b. iadeluca
February 28, 2004 - 05:22 am
"His older son, named like himself Titus Flavius Vespanianus, was the most fortunate of emperors. Titus died in the second year of his rule and the forty-second of his age, while still 'the darling of mankind.' Time did not suffice him for the corrruptions of power or the disillusionment of desire.

"As a youth he had distinguished himself in ruthless war and tarnished his name with loose living. Now, instead of letting omnipotence intoxicate him, he reformed his morals and made his government a model of wisdom and honor.

"His greatest fault was uncontrollable generosity. He counted that day lost on which he had not made someone happy with a gift. He spent too much on shows and games, and he left the replenished Treasury almost as low as his father had found it. He completed the Colosseum and built another municipal bath. No one suffered capital punishment during his brief reign. On the contrary, he had informers flogged and banaished.

"He swore that he would rather be killed than kill. When two patricians were detected in a conspiracy to depose him, he contented himself with sending them a warning. Then he dispatched a courier to relieve the anxiety of a conspirator's mother by telling her that her son was safe.

"His misfortunes were disasters over which he could have little control. A three-day fire in the year 79 destroyed many important buildings, including again the Temple of Jupiter, Juno, and Minerva. In the same year Vesuvius buried Pompeii and thousands of Italians. A year later Rome was stricken with a plague more deadly than any her history had yet recorded.

"Titus did all he could to lessen the sufferings caused by these calamities. 'He showed not merely the concern of an emperor, but a father's surpassing love.' He died of a fever in 81 in the same farmhouse in which his father had recently passed away.

"All Rome mourned him except the brother who succeeded to his throne."

As we go through these various emperors, I am intrigued by their constant fascination with architecture. There seem to be buildings and monuments of every sort in the name of each emperor. But I do not see that happening in later centuries or in our current era. I wonder why.

Robby

tooki
February 28, 2004 - 05:49 am
is given to the happenings in Judea at this time because Durant only wants to let us know things are stirring. Later he will immurse us in these happenings as surely as Gibson seeks to immerse us in exactly HOW Christ died for our sins. Besides, what is "short shrift?"

Scrawler, I agree with you about hidden or vague motives. What does the "technological unemployment" problem have to do with anything in Ancient Rome? They were always constructing enough buildings, archs and acquaducts to keep everyone busy. Oh, right. He will probably expand on this point when we get to "Rome at Work." The Durants are sneaky, tactical writers.

OK, OK, Mal. That's praise.

robert b. iadeluca
February 28, 2004 - 06:04 am
Tooki is correct. Durant is currently showing us the Roman side of Civilization. Speaking for myself, I find that an interesting aspect because always in the back of my mind I say "This is about the time of the birth of Jesus, this is the period when Paul was traveling, etc." and I see what was going on in Rome at that time.

We are currently in that section which Durant calls "The Other Side of Monarchy." We will shortly be in the Silver Age (A.D. 14-96) -- and I think of Judea while reading that. Then we will be talking about important items such as the Art and Law and Philosophy of Rome. Following that we will examine the Hellenistic Revival of Rome.

Then comes what many of us are waiting for -- the section Durant entitles The Youth of Christianity and he will back us up to 4 B.C. and then on to A.D. 325 so we can see what had been happening regarding Christianity while we were examining those various Roman Emperors.

I like the approach Durant takes -- much better than the date after date after date that I had in history classes.

Robby

tooki
February 28, 2004 - 11:03 am
I agree, Robby. As each topic comes up one is able to bring to bear on it an understanding of all that was going on at the same time. It's sort of "History by Simultaneity," much like Cubism in visual art, cubism being the attempt to show all sides of an object at once.

Can we pause for a moment and look at pictures of Pompeii? Mal, where are you when we need you!

Scrawler
February 28, 2004 - 11:19 am
It's true that Rome didn't live in a vacuum, but I like the way the authors present their material. In every history class I've ever taken they have presented their material chronologically. But the way Durant presents it, we focus on the Romans and see the world through their eyes. In addition we get to know them and can relate to them and thus understand them more fully. Than when we study other people we can understand them in relation with the Romans. It's like a close up shot in the movies as opposed to a long shot.

robert b. iadeluca
February 28, 2004 - 11:31 am
Mal will probably find some better ones but here is some ART from Pompeii.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 28, 2004 - 11:36 am
EUREKA!! Here is a LINK which leads to a whole series of links to numerous photos of Pompeii.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 28, 2004 - 11:55 am
Here are PHOTOS of Vesuvius and Pompeii.

My paternal grandmother was born and raised in Naples and not once in my youth did it occur to me to ask her what it was like to live in view of Vesuvius.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
February 28, 2004 - 01:40 pm
Pompeii victim

Found in Pompeii garden

Art Pompeii -- couple, woman writing

robert b. iadeluca
February 28, 2004 - 01:54 pm
Mal:-That'll teach you to stay away from this discussion too long.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
February 28, 2004 - 02:35 pm
My imagination goes crazy when I think about Pompeii. The civilization was so advanced, and here are people going about their business, frozen in time. It amazes me.

Fresco - Pompeii

Scroll down to see a baker's oven and a tavern

Figure - Pompeii

Éloïse De Pelteau
February 28, 2004 - 02:48 pm
Oh! Mal, these are outstanding links of Pompeii. Just fabulous.

Lots to think about here my friends about the Romans. Thank you all, great posts.

Eloïse

robert b. iadeluca
February 28, 2004 - 03:18 pm
Those links are FABULOUS, Mal!! It's hard to visualize boiling mud traveling a mile a minute (60 mph)!!!!

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 28, 2004 - 03:46 pm
The Principate of Titus was A.D. 79-81. Vesuvius erupted in August, 79. This helps us to link the two events together. We have just completed examining the brief rule of Titus who died of a fever. We are about to examine the rule of his brother, Domitian, a longer rule of 15 years.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 28, 2004 - 04:00 pm
"Our chief sources for the reign of Domitian are Tacitus and the younger Pliny. They prospered under him, but belonged to the senatorial party that engaged with him in a war almost of mutual extermination. To set against these hostile witnesses we have the poets Statius and Martial, who ate or sought Domitian's bread and literally praised him to the skies.

"Perhaps all four were right, for the last of the Flavians, like many of the Julio-Claudians, began like Gabriel and ended like Lucifer. In this respect Domitian's soul walked with his body. In youth he was modest, graceful, handsome, tall. In later years he had 'a protruding belly, spindle legs, and a bald head' -- though he had written a book On the Care of the Hair.

"In adolescence he composed poetry. In obsolescence he distrusted his own prose and let others write his speeches and proclamations. He might have been happier had not Titus been his brother. Only the noblest spirits can bear with equanimity the success of their friends. Domitian's jealousy soured into a taciturn gloom, then into secret machinations against his brother. Titus had to beg his father to forgive the younger son.

"When Vespasian died, Domitian claimed that he had been left partner in the imperial power but that the Emperor's will had been tampered with. Titus replied by asking him to be his partner and successor. Domitian refused, and continued to plot. When Titus fell ill, says Dio Cassius, Domitian hastened his death by packing him about with snow.

"We cannot assess the truth of these stories, nor of those tales of sexual license that have come down to us -- that Domitian swam with prostitues, made the daughter of Titus one of his concubines, and 'was most profligate and lewd toward women and boys alike.'

"All Latin historiography is present politics, a partisan blow struck for contemporary ends."

Any reactions to Durant's last sentence? In this case, did "the good die young?"

Robby

JoanK
February 28, 2004 - 05:00 pm
Teaches me too to stay away for a few hours. Wonderful pictures. The only thing I remember from seeing Pompeii 40 years ago is not the temples and palaces, but some rooms of houses of ordinary people. They were so small that I could not have laindown flat unless I did it diagonally.

tooki
February 28, 2004 - 05:29 pm
Those Pompeiian bodies created by filling the ashen molds with plaster of paris, called the Fiorelli method, are awesome, spooky, and tragic - all at once.

George Segal, a lately deceased contemporary American sculptor, 1924-2000, must have been inspired by pictures of those sad bodies. HERE is an example of his sculpture. I think his work has the same mundane but tragic quality as the Pompeiian bodies.

He created his sculpture by wraping his models, usually his friends, in plaster soaked sheets of, probably, gauze or other thin material, letting it dry, and then cutting it off. More details available upon request.

Justin
February 28, 2004 - 10:38 pm
There is much of Edward Hopper in George Segal. His settings are existential. His people appear to be inner directed while functioning in a social setting. They appear to have two lives-their own private life and the public life in which only their bodies appear. Every time I come upon one of his white bodies, I have the feeling I am intruding in it's space.

robert b. iadeluca
February 29, 2004 - 03:06 am
"The reign of Domitian was one of the great ages of Roman building. The fires of 79 and 82 having caused much destruction and destitution, Domitian organized a program of public works to provide employment and distribute wealth. He, too, hoped to reanimate the old faith by beautifying or multiplying its shrines.

"He raised the Temple of Jupiter, Juno, and Minerva once more, and spent $21,000,000 on its gold-plated doors and gilded roof. Rome admired the result and mourned the extravagance. When Domitian built for himself and his administrative staff an enormous palace, the Domus Flavia, the citizens reasonably complained of the cost. But they raised no voice against the expensive games with which he sought to moderate his Tiberian unpopularity.

"He dedicated a temple to his father and his brother. He restored the Baths and Pantheon of Agrippa, the Portico of Octavia, the temples of Isis and Serapis. He added to the Colosseum, finished the Baths of Titus, and began those that were completd by Trajan.

"At the same time he did his dour best to encourage arts and letters. Flavian portrait sculpture reached its zenith in his principate. His coins are of outstanding excellence.

"To stimulate poetry he established in 86 the Capitoline games, which included contests in literature and music. For these he built a stadium and a music hall in the Field of Mars. He gave modest help to the modest talent of Statius and the immodest talent of Martial.

"He rebuilt the public libraries, which had been destroyed by fire, and had their contents renewed by sending scribes to copy the manuscripts in Alexandria -- another proof that the great library there had lost only a small part of its treasures in the fire started by Caesar."

Domitian -- a great Emperor?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
February 29, 2004 - 06:49 am
Domitian

Ruins Temple of Domitian

Domitian, Vespasian relief

Malryn (Mal)
February 29, 2004 - 06:54 am
Palatine Hill

Domitian

Domitian: Hierapolis Arch

Malryn (Mal)
February 29, 2004 - 07:07 am
Click thumbnails to see work done by Domitian on the Palatine Hill

Arch of Titus

Interior view of the Coliseum and more

tooki
February 29, 2004 - 07:23 am
THE EXISTENTIAL HOPPERIAN POMPEIIAN SEGAL

robert b. iadeluca
February 29, 2004 - 07:33 am
Excellent links, Mal -- EXCELLENT!

That's an eerie photo, Tooki.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 29, 2004 - 07:53 am
"Domitian managed the Empire well. He had Tiberius' grim resolution as an administrator, pounced upon peculation, and kept strict watch on all appointees and developments. As Tiberius had restrained Germanicus, so Domitian withdrew Agricola from Britain after that enterprising general had led his armies, and pushed the frontier, to Scotland. Apparently Agricola wished to go farther, and Domitian demurred.

"The recall was attributed to jealousy, and the Emperor paid a heavy price for it when the history of his reign was written by Agricola's son-in-law. He was equally unfortunate in war. In 86 the Dacians crossed the Danube, invaded the Roman province of Moesia, and defeated Domitian's generals. The Prince took command, planned his campaign well, and was about to enter Dacia when Antoninus Saturninus, Roman governor of Upper Germany, persiaded two legions at Mainz to proclaim him emperor.

"The revolt was suppressed by Domitian's aides, but it disconcerted his strategy by allowing the enemy time to prepare. He crossed the Danube, met the Dacians, and apparently suffered a reverse. He made peace with Decebalus, the Dacian king, sent him an annual douceur, and returned to Rome to celebrate a double triumph over the Chatti and the Dacians.

"He contented himself thereafter with the building of a limes, or fortified road, between the Rhine and the Danube, and another between the northward turn of the Danube and the Black Sea."

As I have previously indicated, I continue to learn new words from Durant. Peculation?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 29, 2004 - 08:12 am
For those interested, here are the forts and encampments of AGRICOLA in Northern England and Scotland.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 29, 2004 - 08:22 am
Here is some fascinating information about the DACIANS who defeated Domitian. The present day Romanians are descendants of the Dacians.

Robby

Scrawler
February 29, 2004 - 11:48 am
"All Latin Hisoriography is present politics, a partisian blow struck for contempory ends."

The writing of history is never pure. Some things have to be sacrificed in order that others may be brought to the surface. I think the Durants have kept "contempory ends" in view in writing their epic.

"In this case did the good die young?"

I'm not sure who you are referring to as "the good die young". If it is Domitian than I have to disagree. Although, he modernized Rome's fiscal administraion and secured the empire's frontiers he was a complete tyrant. After all it was his suspicious nature that brought about his end.

robert b. iadeluca
February 29, 2004 - 12:42 pm
Scrawler, I asked that before we came to Domitian and referring to Titus.

Robby

Justin
February 29, 2004 - 01:36 pm
Tooki; That's a wonderful Segal setting. People sharing the sculptor's space at the same time Hopperian-Existentialism is working in the sculpture. The figures are each in their own world while others share their space. I wonder what he has done with the skin to keep it from weathering?

There are two exceptionally fine bronzes in Carmel CA. The two figures- a man and a boy- sit opposite at the entrance to a park where many entrants feel a desire to sit and to join in their conversation. Children are often seen talking to the boy. The sculptor is a local gal who does nice work in her studio.

tooki
February 29, 2004 - 09:38 pm
Durant discusses the Limes later on, so for the time being it is sufficient to know that the Limes was a marking of the Roman Frontier. Its main purpose was to prevent raiding barbarians from entering Roman territory without being noticed.

All those who must know more are encouraged to forage HERE.

Shasta Sills
March 1, 2004 - 03:20 pm
I never liked Segal's work. Those stark, white figures are like ghosts sitting among the living. Color means life. White means lack of life. Of course, marbles are usually white, but they have veins of color variation in them. The chalky white of plaster is a dead substance, useful for making molds, but not for making art.

Malryn (Mal)
March 1, 2004 - 03:33 pm
How about we get off 20th century American artist, George Segal, and get back to Rome? Below is a link to an interesting page about Roman influence in Scotland. Agricola and others played a part in this.

Romans in Scotland

robert b. iadeluca
March 1, 2004 - 03:44 pm
"In the last years of his reign the Emperor's fear of conspiracy bewcame almost a madness. He lined with shining stone the walls of the porticoes under which he walked, so that he might see mirrored in them whatever went on behind him. He complained that the lot of rulers was miserable since no man believed them when they alleged conspiracy, unless the conspiracy succeeded.

"Like Tiberius he listened more readily to informers as he grew older. As the delatores multiplied, no citizen of any prominence could feel safe from spies, even in his home. After Saturninus' revolt indictments and convictions rapily increased. Aristocarats were exiled or killed, suspected men were toruured, even by having 'fire inserted into their private parts.' The terrified Senate, including the Tacitus who recounts these events most bitt3ely, was the agent of trial and condemnation. At each execution it thanked the gods for the salvation of the Prince.

"Domitian made the mistake of frightening his own household. In 96 he ordered the death of his secretry Epaphroditus because, twenty-seven years before, he had helped Nero to commit suicide.

"The other freedmen of the imperial household felt themselves threatened. To protect themselves they resolved to kill Domitian, and the Emperor's wife Domitia joined in the plot. On the night before his last, he leaped from his bed in fright. When the appointed moment came, Domitia's servant struck the first blow, four others took part in the assault. Domitian, struggling madly, met death in the forty-fifth year of his age and the fifteenth of his reign (96).

"When the news reached the senators they tore down and shattered all images of him in their chamber, and ordered that all statues of him, and all inscriptions mentioning his name, should be destroyed throughout the realm."

I find it interesting that an entire chamber of Senators could go along with the wishes of one leader until the moment that he is deposed. How can one man frighten an entire Senate?

Robby

tooki
March 2, 2004 - 06:55 am
Since "no citizen could feel safe from spies," including the Senators, they were unable to conspire for Domitian's replacement. He had created such a climate of suspicion that the Senators were rendered immobile.

An environment of informers, suspicion, and torture will silence most folks. Count and list the current countries in the world today that practice such human rights violations. Two weekends ago the weekly newspaper magazine "Parade" prioritized such countires, giving the top 10 of human rights abuses. Unfortunately I can't find my copy. Anybody got theirs?

tooki
March 2, 2004 - 07:07 am
HERE'S THE LIST

Somehow I find it wonderous that the list is from "Pravda."

Shasta Sills
March 2, 2004 - 10:11 am
That was an interesting link about the Romans in Scotland. As much as I hate war, even I found that battle interesting. Of course, I was hoping the Romans would lose.

Scrawler
March 2, 2004 - 02:34 pm
That's an interesting question: How can one man frighten a whole Senate?

To say that he was emperor is not enough. Fear of something or someone comes from within each individual. Could all these men have had the same fear. When the senate attacked Caesar did they have the same fear? Why didn't the senate attack the present emperor? Were the senators different at this time? Perhaps they were weaker. Perhaps the senate was reacting as individuals instead of as a body. If they had attacked as a single body they would have had strength in numbers. Also the murderers of Caesar did what they thought best for Rome. Whereas the present seantors were only thinking of themselves as individuals and not what was good for Rome.

robert b. iadeluca
March 2, 2004 - 06:54 pm
"History has been unfair to this 'age of despots' because it has spoken here chiefly through the most brilliant and most prejudicd of historians. It is true that the gossip of Suetonius often confirms -- or follows - the invective of Tacitus. But the study of literature and inscriptions has condemned them both as mistaking the vices of ten emperors for the record of an empire and a century.

"There was something good in the worst of these rulers -- devoted statesmanship in Tiberius -- a charming gaiety in Caligula -- a plodding wisdom in Claudius -- an exuberant aestheticism in Nero -- a stern competence in Domitian. Behind the adulteries and the murders an administrative organization had formed which provided, through all this period, a high order of provincial government.

"The emperors themselves were the chief victims of their power. Some disease in the blood, fired by the heat of loosed desire, had pursued the Julio-Claudians as fatally as the children of Atreus. Some flaw in the system had debased the Flavians in one generation from patient statesmanship to terrified cruelty.

"Seven of these ten men met a violent end. Nearly all of them were unhappy, surrounded by conspiracy, dishonesty, and intrigue, trying to govern a world from the anarchy of a home. They indulged their appetites because they knew how brief was their omnipotence. They lived in the daily horror of men condemned to an early and sudden death.

"They went under because they were above the law. They became less than men because power had made them gods.

"But we must not absolve the age or the principate of its ignominy and its crimes. It had given peace to the Empire, but terror to Rome. It had injured morals by the high example of cruelty and lust. It had torn Italy with a civil war more ferocious than that of Caesar and Pompey.

"It had filled the islands with exiles and had killed off the best and bravest men. It had suborned the treachery of relatives and friends by rewarding avaricious spies. It had, in Rome, replaced a government of laws with a tyranny of men. It had raised gigantic edifices by accumulating tribute, but it had dwarfed the soul by frightening talented or creative minds into servility or silence.

"Above all, it had made the army supreme. The power of the prince over the Senate lay not in his superior genius, nor in custom, nor in prestige. It rested upon the pikes of the Guard. When provincial armies saw how emperors were made, how rich were the donatives and spoils of the capital, they deposed the Praetorians and themselves entered upon the business of making kings.

"For a century yet the wisdom of great rulers chosen by adoption rather than by heredity, violence, or wealth would hold the legions in check and keep the frontiers safe.

"But when, through a philosopher's love, idiocy would again reach the throne, the armies would run riot, chaos would break through the fragile film of order, and civil war would join hands with the waiting barbarians to topple down the noble and precarious structure of government that the genius of Augustus had built."

We participants have spent some time in analyzing these emperors to find out what made them what they were. Now Durant gives his analysis.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
March 3, 2004 - 04:59 am
It's interesting, isn't it, that Durant has concluded what some of us here have mentioned: that part of the reason for problems in Rome was because of something carried "in the blood", or genetic. I must admit that this is a factor I hadn't thought about before.

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
March 3, 2004 - 05:09 am
The Five Generations of the House of Atreus, and its Curse

tooki
March 3, 2004 - 08:04 am
and other awful things are going to happen before Rome topples.

While it is far too early to speculate on the seemingly eternal question of why Rome fell, Durant doesn't hesitate to give credit to Augustus and his genius for the building and "nobleness" of the Roman government.

The fall of Rome seems to have taken almost as long as the building of it, and I don't think Augustus was responsible for all that much of the Roman Empire and its so called nobleness.

Scrawler
March 3, 2004 - 10:06 am
It would seem to me that the armies of Rome had a lot to do with its success. As the army went so went Rome. They brought peace to the empire, but terror to Rome. Will they also play a part in the fall of Rome?

Shasta Sills
March 3, 2004 - 02:00 pm
I think Durant's analysis in post 143 is one of the most interesting comments he has made. As I read about all those power-crazed maniacs, I was beginning to think I should find something better to do. It's depressing to read about crime after crime without trying to make some kind of sense out of all that madness.

If the Roman period in history is an important part of the story of civilization, I would like to hear more about their accomplishments and less about their political corruption.

robert b. iadeluca
March 3, 2004 - 05:55 pm
OK, Shasta -- we're coming to accomplishments!

robert b. iadeluca
March 3, 2004 - 05:57 pm
The Silver Age

A.D. 14-96

robert b. iadeluca
March 3, 2004 - 06:09 pm
The GREEN quotes move us onward.

"Tradition has given to Latin letters from A.D. 14 to 117 the name of Silver Age, implying a fall from the cultural excellence of the Augustan Age.

"Tradition is the voice of time, and time is the medium of selection. A cautious mind will respect their verdict, for only youth knows better than twenty centuries.

"We may be permitted, however, to suspend judgment, to give Lucan, Petronius, Seneca, the elder Pliny, Celsus, Statius, Martial, Quintilian -- and, in later chapters, Tacitus, Juvenal, Pliny the Younger, and Epietetus -- an unbiased hearing, and enjoy them as if we had never heard that they belonged to a decadent period.

"In every epoch something is decaying and something is growing. In epigram, satire, the novel, history, and philosopny the Silver Age marks the zenith of Roman literature, as it represents in realistic sculpture and mass architecture the climax of Roman art."

Durant asks us to pause before we enter this age, to step back, take a few deep breaths, and take a broader view. As he says:-"Time is the medium of selection." He asks us to "suspend judgment" -- to be "cautious."

And perhaps to even examine our own era as he warns us that "in every epoch something is decaying and something is growing." Are we able to step back far enough to realize this? Do the trees blind us to the entire forest?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 3, 2004 - 06:38 pm
Here is a MAP OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE in the era we are now entering.

Robby

Justin
March 3, 2004 - 07:42 pm
I know where the decay lies in our own era. So do you. Our accomplishments , however, are less recognizable. Technology stands out as does the spread of human social equality. We are making gains in these areas.

We have seen the governmental decay in Rome and now thanks to Durant Roman accomplishments in the arts,and in engineering will be exposed. Many of the gains in engineering were made as a result of military activity. That observation may also be made for post WWll America.

tooki
March 4, 2004 - 08:08 am
It is difficult to forsee in American culture which values will be the winner, if one can say that values can have winners and losers. Folks here in Oregon this morning are engaging in a number of different value laden behaviors. Some same sex couples are getting married, while the Aramamic speaking community is delighted by the "Passion" dialect, faith led the composer of the music in the movie, a gay father of his two and his male partners' three discusses his happiness, and finally, a report on a cultural camera show features two indigenous groups I never even heard of. Oh, I need also to mention the letter writer to the advice columnist who wonders about her "boy friend," whom she has been going with since she was 13 (she is now 26), her three children by him, and his four more by other women.

All of this makes "stepping back and looking at the forest" almost mandatory for any understanding at all.

robert b. iadeluca
March 4, 2004 - 11:24 am
"The speech of the common man re-entered literaature, diminishing inflections, relaxing syntax, and dropping final consonants with Gallic impertinence. About the middle of the first century the Latin V (which had been pronounced like our W) and B (between vowels) were both softened into a sound like the English V. So habere, to have, became in sound havere, and prepared for Italian avere and French avoir. While vinum, wine, began to approximate, by lazy slurring of the changing final consonant, the Italian vino and the French vin.

"The Latin language was preparing to mother Italian, Spanish, and French.

"It must be admitted that rhetoric had now grown at the expense of eloquence, grammar at the expense of poetry. Able men devoted themselves beyond precedent to studying the form, evolution, and niceties of the language -- editing already 'classical' texts -- formulating the august rules of literary composition, forensic oratory, poetic meter, and prose rhythm.

"Claudius tried to reform the alphabet. Nero made poetry fashionable by his almost Japanese example. The elder Seneca wrote manuals of rhetoric on the ground that eloquenc gives to every power a double power.

"Without eloquence only generals could rise in Rome. Even generals had to be orators. The mania for rhetoric seized all forms of literature. Poetry became rhetorical, prose became poetical, and Pliny himself wrote an eloquent page in the six volumes of his Natural History.

"Men began to worry about the balance of their phrases and the melody of their clauses. Historians wrote declamations. Philosophers itched for epigrams, and every one wrote sententiae -- concentratd pills of wisdom.

"All the polite world was writing poetry, and reading it to friends in hired halls or theaters, at table, even in the bath. Poets engaged in public competitions, won prizes, were feted by municipalities and crowned by emperors. Aristocrats and princes welcomed dedications or tributes and paid for them with dinners or denarii.

"The passion for poetry gave a pleasant aspect of amateur authorship to an age and city darkened with sexual license and periodic terror."

I remember my Spanish teacher telling me that the "b" in habere should sound in between a "b" and a "v." And Eloise, you now know why you don't pronounce the consonants at the end of some words.

And all this beautiful literature taking place while heads were being cut off!

Robby

Scrawler
March 4, 2004 - 11:25 am
"In every epoch something is decaying and something is growing."

In order for something to grow; something else has to decay. Each of us gives up our childhoods when we become adults. This kind of decay is on an individual basis. But the decay I think Durant was talking about is the growth of a country. In the past century we have had more growth than at any time in history, but we have also had more decay than at any other time. It almost seems like we are on a rollar-coaster ride that we can't get off of. At the beginning of the 20th century we were in a "class war" now at the beginning of the 21th century that war has been fine-tuned. Are we coming any closer to solving this situation? We are all equal whatever labels we place on ourselves - we are all part of the human race. As Justin said I think discoveries in technology and medicine have advanced us forward, but forward to what? Does the fact that we have so many "tech-toys" make us forget what it means to be human? We have just as much crime as the Romans only with superior weapons. And don't even get me started on WAR!

Éloïse De Pelteau
March 4, 2004 - 03:10 pm
Yes Robby and I think Latin should be a compulsory subject in school. Those who studied Latin have a better grasp of their own and other languages.

And Tooki is the brain capable of keeping up with fast advancing technologies? Or will the new generations adapt to this better than we did? Will spending time with fast growing technology on a daily basis prevent them from practicing their language skills as we did or as the Romans did, for instance.

Eloïse

Shasta Sills
March 4, 2004 - 03:18 pm
Well, I'm glad they started writing poetry instead of just fighting wars. I wonder why Nero's poetry was like Japanese poetry?

robert b. iadeluca
March 4, 2004 - 06:34 pm
"The older Seneca was Lucan's grandfather, the philosopher Seneca his uncle. Born in Corduba in 39, and named Marcus Annaeus Lucanus, he was brought in infancy to Rome and grew up in aristocratic circles where poetry and philosophy rivaled amorous and political intrigues as the foci of life.

"At twenty-one he competed in the Neronian Games with a poem 'In Praise of Nero' and won a prize. Seneca introduced him at court, and soon the poet and the Emperor were bandying epics. Lucan made the mistake of winning first prize in a poetic contest with the Prince.

"Nero ordered him to publish no more, and Lucan withdrew to avenge himself in private with a vigorous but rhetorical epic, Pharsalia, which viewed the Civil War from the standpoint of the Pompeian aristocracy. Lucan is fair to Caesar, and writes of him an illuminating phrase:-'nil actum credens cum quid superesset agendum -- 'thinking nothing done while anything remained to do.'

"But the real hero of the book is the younger Cato, whom Lucan equals with the gods in a famous line:-victrix causa deis placuit, sed victa Catoni -- 'the winning cause pleased the gods, but the lost one pleased Cato.' Lucan too loved a lost cause and died for it. He joined in the conspiracy to replace Nero with Piso, was arrestd, broke down (he was only twenty-six), and revealed the names of other conspirators even, we are told, of his mother.

"When Nero confirmed his death sentence, he recovered his courage, summoned his friends to a feast, ate with them heartily, opened his veins, and recited his lines against despotism as he bled to death (65).

If anything remains to be done, then nothing has been done. Interesting.

Regarding his turning his mother in, I think of the hero of "1984" (I forget his name) who with a cage of rats around his head, tells on all his friends. Does everyone have a limit?

Robby

JoanK
March 4, 2004 - 07:15 pm
"Why was Nero's poetry like Japanese poetry?"

In the following long, but interesting life of Nero

http://ancienthistory.about.com/library/bl/bl_nero_suetonius.htm

I found two poems he was supposed to have uttered as troops were coming to kill him:

Thanein m' anoge syngamos, maetaer, pataer. Wife, mother, father, force me to my end. 
 

and

Hippon m' okupodon amphi ktupos ouata ballei; [632]
 
 The noise of swift-heel'd steeds assails my ears; 
 

If these are the whole poems, they are similiar in brevity and sharpness of imagery

to Japenese haiku -- although certainly not similiar in tone.

tooki
March 4, 2004 - 09:20 pm
"The Latin language was preparing to mother Italian, Spanish, and French."

So, what were these folks speaking before they were invaded, or conquered or whatever, by the Romans? It sounds like they weren't speaking until the Romans appeared. Surely the Latin was grafted on to something. What was it?

tooki
March 4, 2004 - 09:29 pm
I found an answer to my question

Lucan's Poetry I think it's strong. Short, pithy lines, and severe, brutal images. I don't think this is what Shasta had in mind.

Justin
March 4, 2004 - 11:32 pm
Ancient Languages in the Indo European group are as follows:


Celtic------Gaulish
Italic------Oscan
Umbrian
Sabellian
Venetic
Lanuvian
Fabiscan
Praenestine


These were the languages Latin blended with to form the modern languages we call Spanish, French, Italian.

Bubble
March 5, 2004 - 01:55 am
Justin, the presence of these ancient root languages would be more felt in the local patois like the one talked around Napoli, which is so different from Italian and barely understood by someone from Bologna for example. Bubble

Malryn (Mal)
March 5, 2004 - 07:38 am
An answer to Eloise's question:
"Will spending time with fast growing technology on a daily basis prevent them from practicing their language skills as we did or as the Romans did, for instance."
Learning a language is easily available and accessible to anyone who has a computer. Surfing web pages other than those in English is also a way to learn languages. I'm surprised at how much I understand when I'm on a page written in Danish or Dutch, just two examples, both languages I know nothing about.

My grandson in his first year at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, lives in the German House, a floor in a dormitory where nothing but German is spoken by the people who live there. Language houses like this are quite common in universities today.

Mal

tooki
March 5, 2004 - 08:49 am
How interesting. Those prior languages were called "ancient root languages." Does anyone now speak, say, "Umbrian" or Praenestine?"

I agree with Mal that surfing the web is a great way to pick up bits and pieces of strange, wonderous languages, some I don't even recognize!

And how did those ancient root languages develop. How far back do they date?

robert b. iadeluca
March 5, 2004 - 01:10 pm
Very interesting -- the origin of languages. You folks here might want to invite a couple of your Senior Net friends who are interested in language to visit us here. In the meantime, Durant continues:--

"We are not certain -- it is only the general opinion -- that the Petronius whose Satyricon still finds many readers was the Caius Petronius who died by Nero's orders a year after Lucan. The book itself contains not a word to serve as a clue. Tacitus, who describes the arbiter elegantiarum with pithy eloquence, makes no mention of the disreputable masterpiece.

"Some forty epigrams are ascribed to a Petronius, including a line that almost sums up Lucretius:-primus in orbe deos fecit timor -- 'it was fear that first in the world made gods' -- but these fragments too are silent about the author's identity.

"The Satyricon was a collection of satires, probably in sixteen books, of which only the last two remain, themselves incomplete. They are saturae in the Latin sense of medleys -- here of prose and verse, adventure and philosophy, gastronomy and venery. The form owes something to the satires of Menippus, a Syrian Cynic who wrote in Gadara about 60 B.C., and to the 'Milesian Tales,' or love romances, that had become popular in the Hellenistic world.

"As all extant examples of these are later than Petronius, the Satyricon has the distinction of being the oldest known novel."

Your reactions, please?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
March 6, 2004 - 05:20 am
The Satyricon, Chapter 1

Malryn (Mal)
March 6, 2004 - 05:28 am
I thought the Tale of Genji by Murasaki Shikibu was the world's first novel.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
March 6, 2004 - 05:54 am
"It is hardly credible that an aristocratic lord of luxury, and master of fine taste, should have fathered a book so profusely vulgar as the Satyrican. All its active characters are plebians, ex-slaves, or slaves, and all the scenes are of low life. The story begins in a brothel. Trimalchio is an ex-slave who has made a fortune, has bought enormous latifundia, and lives in parvenue luxury with the appointments of a palace and the atmosphere of a stew. His estates are so vast that a daily gazette must be written to keep him abreast of his earnings.

"He begs his guests to drink. 'If the wine doesn't please you, I'll change it. I don't have to buy it.' Forty pages describe the dinner. It is a powerful and savage satire. Realistic only in its details, and probably true of only a small segment of roman life.

"It is the strangest book in the literature of Rome."

Robby

Scrawler
March 6, 2004 - 11:46 am
I had not realized that "The Satyricon" was the oldest known novel. But it certainly fits the bill since it is a prose narrative similiar to the "Odyssey" and deals with human experience. I suppose it can also be discribed as a satire since it holds up human follies to ridicule with a picture of vulgar ostentation of society pitted against the boorish local citizens of a small Italian town. I have never cared much for satire, but I guess in the Roman time the people didn't have as many "reality" shows as we do today.

JoanK
March 6, 2004 - 12:25 pm
SCRAWLER: good point!!!

Thanks for the link, MAL. Is this the same one Durant is talking about? It starts with a criticism of education.

robert b. iadeluca
March 6, 2004 - 12:43 pm
"The decay of the native religion had left a moral vacuum which philosophy sought to fill. Parents sent their sons, and themselves often went, to hear the lectures of men who offered to provide a rational code of civilized conduct, or a moral dress for naked desire. Those who could afford it paid philosophers to live with them, partly as educators, partly as spiritual counselors, partly as learned company. Augustus had Arcus, consulted him on almost everything, and for his sake was lenient to Alexandria.

"When Drusus died Livia called in 'her husband's philosopher' -- so Seneca phrases it -- 'to help her bear her grief.' Nero, Trajan, and of course Aurelius had philosophers residing with them at court, as kings have chaplains now. In their last moments men would summon philosphers to chart their passing, as centuries later they would ask for a priest.

"The public never forgave these teachers of wisdom for taking salaries or fees. Philosophy was esteemed a sufficient substitute for food and drink, and philosophers who had a less exalted opinion of their profession were the butt of popular jokes, of Quintilian's criticism, of Lucian's satire, and of imperial hostility. Many of them deserved it, for they put on the philosher's coarse cloak, and grew a profound beard, to give a learned front to gluttony, avarice, and vanity.

"Most of the Roman philosophrs followed the Stoic creed. The epicureans were too busy pursuing wine, woman, and food to have much time for theory. Here and there in Rome were mendicant preachers of the Cynic philosophy, ignoring speculation, and calling men to a simple and soapless life. They acceded to the popular demand that philosophers should be poor, and were in consequence the lest respect of the schools."

When I was in elementary and high school, teachers were often unmarried and often lived in the homes of local residents -- for various reasons but often to be "learned company."

As for the public not forgiving teachers for taking fees, what's new? I look at the salaries being paid to teachers these days and the attitude parents often take toward them.

Robby

JoanK
March 6, 2004 - 02:24 pm
"I thought the Tale of Genji by Murasaki Shikibu was the world's first novel".

According to my reference, she lived about 1000 AD, while the Satyricon was first century AD. But there could be disagreement as to whether to call the latter a novel. Genji certainly would be.

tooki
March 6, 2004 - 09:33 pm
It appears it was sufficient in ancient Rome that to be a philosopher one need only don a coarse cloak, proclaim profundities and announce oneself as a teacher of widom.

One of my partners, holder of a Ph.D in philosophy, was repeatedly asked in a bar by a drunk what he did for a living. Unable to avoid answering, and unwilling to lie (or lacking quickness of wit) he finally said he was a philosopher. The drunk looked reflective for a few moments and said, "I had a brother in law that had to go to one of those guys once."

Justin
March 7, 2004 - 12:04 am
Nero was the pupil of Seneca but he absorbed very few stoic ideas. It was the epicureanism of Gaius Petronius that won Nero's heart. The union was achieved with the blessings of Seneca who chose to divert the sovereign from tampering with political issues.

Thus, Nero became a ruler who relied on two philosophers- one an old teacher and the other a companion of the brothels. In the final contest it was Seneca who proved the least worthy. He was told to open his veins to let life run out. There was a play about Seneca and Nero produced some years ago on Broadway. It starred Peter Ustinov in the role of Nero. The Seneca of the play opened his veins in a hot tub, I remember, and lay back to let it happen. The title eludes me.

Seneca was an uncommon philosopher. He was not poor and clothed in coarse sack cloth. He lived austerely but with great wealth. He amassed $30,000,000. with the help of his father's fortune and agressive business skills.

Justin
March 7, 2004 - 12:17 am
Robby; Here(page 301), in Durant, is a new word for me - arbitrament. Antonius' troops listened to and laughed at the words of Musonius. "They resumed the ultimate arbitrament." Webster says it means "decision." I thought it was worth sharing.

Éloïse De Pelteau
March 7, 2004 - 01:48 am
Tooki, Hahaha - that will teach him to flaunt his Ph.D.

Justin, Arbitre = a referee, umpire. Durant often flounts his French origins, but arbitrament in English is archaic.

robert b. iadeluca
March 7, 2004 - 05:26 am
I thought it was a guy who took care of trees.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
March 7, 2004 - 05:42 am
No, ROBBY. That's an aroboretum.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
March 7, 2004 - 05:56 am
"Since the Roman Stoic was a man of action rather than of contemplation, he eschewed metaphysics as a hopeless quest, and sought in Stocism a philosophy of conduct that would support human decency, family unity, and social order independently of supernatural surveillance and command.

"The essence of his code was self-control. He would subordinate passion to reason, and train his will to desire nothing that would make his peace of soul contingent upon external goods. In politics he would recognize the universal brotherhood of man under the fatherhood of God. At the same time he would love his country and hold himself ready to die at any time to avert its disgrace or his own.

"Life itself was always to remain within his choice. He was free to leave it whenever it should become an evil rather than a boon. A man's conscience was to be higher than any law.

"Monarchy was a sad necessity for the rule of wide and diverse realms, but to kill a despot was an excellent thing.

"Roman Stocism had at first profited from the Principate. The limitations on political freedom had driven men from the forum to the study, and had inclined the finest of them to a philosophy that made the self-controlled subject more sovereign than the impassioned king. The government did not check freedom of thought or speech so long as these made no public attack upon the emperor, his family, or the official gods. But when the professors and their Senatorial patrons began to denounce tyranny, there arose between philosophy and autocracy a war that lasted until the adoptive emperors united them on the throne.

"When Nero ordered Thrasea to die (65), he at the same time exiled Thrasea's friend, Musonius Rufus, the most sincere and consistent of the Stoic philosphers in first-century Rome. Rufus had defined philosophy as inquiry into right conduct, and had taken his quest seriously. He denounced concubinage despite its legality, and demanded of men the same standard of sexual morality that they required of women. Sexual relations, said this ancient Tolstoian, were permissible only in marriage and for the procreation. He believed in equal educational opportunities for both sexes and welcomed women to his lectures. But he bade them seek from education and philosophy the means of perfecting themselves as women.

"Slaves, too, attended his classes. One of them -- Epicerus -- honored his teacher by surpassing him. When civil war flared in Rome after Nero's death, Musonius went out to the attacking army and lectured it on the blessings of peace and the horrors of war. Antonius' troops laughed at him and resumed the ultimate arbitrament.

"Vespasian, in expellng the philosophers from Rome, excepted Rufus but he kept his concubines."

The philosophical questions of those days are just as alive today.

The importance of self-control. Subordinating passion to reason. Recognizing the universal brotherhood of man.

Willingness to die for one's country. The taking of one's own life. The morality of killing a despot. Rightness of publicly attacking the nation's leader.

Sexual relations only within marriage -- and only for procreation. Equal educational opportunities for men and women. Peace vs war.

Any thoughts on the progress of Civilization?

Robby

Hairy
March 7, 2004 - 05:58 am
arbitrate - arbitrary

robert b. iadeluca
March 7, 2004 - 07:22 am
Occasionally we take a side trip from Durant to read an article which relates to the Roman Empire. We will soon arrive at the rule of Lucius Septimius who ruled the empire from 193 to 211 A.D. but an article in today's NY Times takes us to Libya where the Emperor's birth place, Leptis Magna, calls our attention to the most splendid display of Roman civilization that exists outside Italy.

Click HERE to read the details.

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
March 7, 2004 - 07:36 am
LEPTIS MAGNA

And another exciting LINK

robert b. iadeluca
March 7, 2004 - 07:52 am
Marvelous links, Eloise!! Lots of info and lots of great photos.

Be sure to click onto those links within links.

Robby

Scrawler
March 7, 2004 - 11:55 am
Does it suprise you that we today have the same philosophical questions as those who lived in Roman times? People today have the same wants and needs as our brothers and sisters of ancient times. The only question becomes then of one of interpretation. As we move up and down in seesaw fashion our interpretation of our values changes and so do our philosophical ideas. I have always felt that we are all of the human race and therefore our ideals should encompass all of us whatever labels we put on ourselves. I believe that when we all accept our fellow beings for who they are; warts and all that we will truly move towards a civilized world.

Justin
March 7, 2004 - 02:19 pm
Yes, indeed, Scrawler. We are the same as the ancients. Our children, grand children, and great grand children are like us so we must expect that process works both ways. I don't see much evolutionary change in people in 2000 years but maybe I am not looking in the right places. Are we taller, shorter, fatter, thinner,hairier,balder, than our ancient cousins?

Justin
March 7, 2004 - 02:28 pm
The need for greater self control is still with us. Our jails are full of domestic violators and others who frequently lose control.
The willingness to die for one's country is still with us. But not everyone thinks it's an ok thing to do.
Sex in marriage exclusively for procreational purposes is not something we feel tied to. But the question is still around. Suzie and Sadie's wedding announcement appeared in the social section of today's paper. It was a welcome sight but I don't think they have procreation in mind.

Fifi le Beau
March 7, 2004 - 07:06 pm
Justin asks if we are taller, shorter, fatter than our ancient ancestors. In a link someone gave about Gaul and a description of the Celts, there was a perfect description of my youngest grandson. It described the men as tall, with long limbs, reddish hair, and a fair complexion.

I immediately thought of him because at age 14 he is already over six feet tall and his wingspan covers a lot of territory on the basketball court. His dark red hair is his crowning glory, and his fair complexion compliments it all.

That description also fits my two sons, except for the red hair. One had dark brown hair and the other is blonde. They both however have beards that are laced with red. I was shocked one day to see my oldest son who had decided to grow a beard with so much dark red in it, the exact color of my grandson's hair.

I do believe we may be getting taller by degrees. My oldest son is 6'3", his oldest son is 6'4" at 16, and the youngest at 14 is 6'3" and both are still growing according to their doctor.

Sometime ago I watched a documentary on an excavation of a grave site in China. They unearthed a man who had been well preserved by the climate in the area. The time of burial dated some thousands of years. The picture of the man and the description given of him was an adult male, tall, fair, red headed and unlike anyone who lived in that area of China.

Though they did not know where these people came from, the speculation was a group of Celts had somehow made their way to China in ancient times.

Though my family is far from their ancient roots, their description from two thousand years ago or five thousand years ago remains the same today.

......

Justin
March 7, 2004 - 07:40 pm
Fifi:I once wrote a piece called the "Tyranny of the Tall", in which I described those in my life who exceeded me in height. I am 5'7". My boss was 6 feet tall. My mother in law was 5'8". My father in law was 6'. We praised those who were "tall in the saddle" like John Wayne. Jane Russell liked "Tall Men". Now you tell me the ancient Celts in China were 6'. I guess the only way to stand on a par in this world is to be a little-big man.

robert b. iadeluca
March 8, 2004 - 05:15 am
During most of the period of my graduate studies I let my beard grow. I kept it trimmed in the Lincolnesque manner but despite the fact that I had black hair, there was no doubt that it had a slight reddish tinge to it. I never realized the existence of those red hairs until I grew a beard.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 8, 2004 - 06:50 am
Durant continues:-

"The Stoic philosphy found its most doubtful expression in the life, its most perfect expression in the writings, of Lucius Annaeus Seneca. Born at Corduba about 4 B.C., he was soon taken to Rome, and received all the education available there. He imbibed rhetoric from his father, Stocism from Attalus, Pythagoreanism from Sotion, and practical politics from his aunt's husband, the Roman governor of Egypt.

"He tried vegetarianism for a year, then gave it up, but remained always abstemious in food and drink. He was a millionaire in his surroundings rather than in his habits. He suffered so much from asthma and weak lungs that he often contemplated suicide. He practiced law, and was chosen quaestor about A.D. 33.

"Two years later he married Pompeia Paulina, with whom he lived in remarkable continuity until his death.

"On inheriting his father's fortune he abandoned the law and indulged himself in writing. When Cremutius Cordus was forced by Caligula to kill himself (40), Seneca addressed to Cordus' daughter Marcia a consolatio -- an essay of condolence which was a regularly practiced form in the schools of rhetoric and philosophy. Caligula wished to have him executed for his impertinence, but Seneca's friends saved his life by argying that he would presently die of consumption in any case.

"Soon afterward Claudius accused him of improper relations with Julia, daughter of Germanicus. The Senate condemned him to death, but Claudius commuted this to exile in Corsica.

"On that rugged isle, amid a population as primitive as in Ovid's Tomi, the philospher spent eight lonely years (41-49). At first he took his misfortune with stoic calm, and comforted his mother with a touching Consolatio ad Helviam. But as the bitter years crawled on, his spirit broke, and he addressed to Claudius's secreatary a Consolatio ad Plybium in a humble appeal for pardon.

"When this failed he tried to dull his sufferings by composing tragedies."

How often "good" writings come from "sad" lives.

Robby

tooki
March 8, 2004 - 07:05 am
Seneca was apparently either a consumptive or an asthmatic, although HE looks robust here.

Is THIS the portrait of a sickly man? And why is he standing in a bowl?

Malryn (Mal)
March 8, 2004 - 02:22 pm
Roman Empire Timeline

robert b. iadeluca
March 8, 2004 - 03:11 pm
An excellent timeline, Mal. It is fun to start at the beginning and gradually run down the now familiar names.

Robby

Scrawler
March 8, 2004 - 03:35 pm
I think one thing that has changed at least in this decade is that we are eating more fresh vegetables and fruits and fiber while are ancient ancestors ate more meats and bread. I would think we exercise less than they did. They regular folks were famers working from sun up to sun down.

When I think of writers writing "good" stories I don't think they necessary had "tragic" lives, but I think they experienced life or observed life to the point that they could give a good accounting of life in general. Certainly it will help to live a "tragic" life if you want to write like Faulkner, but it really isn't necessary.

robert b. iadeluca
March 8, 2004 - 03:53 pm
I am surprised. I always thought that the name, Seneca, stood out with people who had studied Latin or Ancient History or even hadn't had such classes but had heard the name. And yet no one here seems interested.

Robby

Justin
March 8, 2004 - 05:31 pm
I preceded your entry on Seneca by a few posts. Sorry about that. Seneca was instructed by Nero to commit suicide. He did so by openeing his veins in a hot bath. The bowl you see him standing in is the tub in which he soaked away his life.

Malryn (Mal)
March 9, 2004 - 03:35 am
Good morning, ROBBY. Here's a better picture of and information about Seneca the Younger, who is the Seneca we've been talking about.
Seneca the Younger

Malryn (Mal)
March 9, 2004 - 03:41 am
Seneca's essays in translation

A brief look at Seneca's life and works

robert b. iadeluca
March 9, 2004 - 05:18 am
"Seneca wrote (63-65) his studies in natural science (Quaestiones Naturales) and the most lovable of his works, the Epistulae Morales. They were casual, intimate causeries addressed to his friend Lucilius -- rich governor of Sicily, poet, philosopher, and frank Epicurean.

"There are few books in Roman literature more pleasant than these urbane attempts to adapt Stoicism to the needs of a millionaire. Here begins the informal essay, which would be the favorite medium of Plutarch and Lucian, Montaigne and Voltaire, Bacon and Addison and Steele. To read these letters is to be in correspondence with an enlightened, humane, and tolerant Roman who has reached the heights and known the depths of literature, statesmanship, and philosophy.

"They are Zeno speaking with Epicurus' lenience and Plato's charm. Seneca apologizes to Lucilius for the carelessness of his style. 'I want my letters to you to be just what my converesation would be if you and I were sitting or walking together. I write this not for the many but for you. Each of us is sufficient audience to the other.' -- though the old diplomat doubtless hoped that posterity would eavesdrop on his talk.

"He describes his asthma vividly but without self-pity. He cheerfully calls it 'practicing how to die' by taking 'last gasps' for an hour. He is sixty-seven now, but only in body. 'My mind is strong and alert. It takes issue with me on the subject of old age. It declares that old age is its period of bloom.' He rejoices that he has time at last to read the good books he has had so long to put aside. Apparently he now reread Epicurus, for he quotes him with a frequency and an enthusiasm scandalous in a Stoic. He is frightened by the excesses of individualism and self-indulgence in Caligula, Nero, and thousands more. He wishes to offer some counterweight to the temptations that beset minds liberated before moral maturity.

"He seems resolved to confute the epicureans out of the mouth of the master whose name they abused and whose doctrine they dared not understand."

I think of Robert Browning -- "Grow old along with me; the best is yet to be; the last of life for which the first was made."

Robby

tooki
March 9, 2004 - 06:42 am
Durant is dismissive of Senecan tragedies, "... they may be forgotten with impunity." (p.302) Perhaps when he wrote scholarship had not yet given Seneca his due.

Seneca wrote what are called "closet dramas." Never intended to be performed, they were read aloud by a group. Writing closet dramas was popular among the Romantics, and Bryon wrote at least one, whose name I have forgotten, in spite of having written a long term paper on it as an undergraduate.

Seneca's tragedies were models for the revival of tragedy on the Renaissance stage. According to one source, the two great, but very different, dramatic traditions of the age - French Neoclassical tragedy and Elizabethan tragedy - drew inspiration from Seneca.

I think the concept "stoic" and the ideas it engenders create an atmosphere of dismal acceptance, which isn't very palatable. Descriptions of his Greek themes, detailed treatment of horrible deeds, and bloodthirsty revenge sound suspiciously like "The Texas Chainsaw Murders."

Speaking as an asthmatic, I am not interested in reading about preparing to die by taking "last gasps." I think he exaults "victimhood" to a philosophy.

And, in conclusion, who then is standing in the tub waiting to bleed to death: the younger or the older Seneca?

HubertPaul
March 9, 2004 - 12:46 pm
"...........that beset minds liberated before moral maturity."

liberated from what?

Justin
March 9, 2004 - 01:27 pm
Mal; Is it possible to bring up the spurious letters to St Paul?

Justin
March 9, 2004 - 01:37 pm
Tooki; Seneca Junior is the man in the tub. He died lying down I think, blending his flowing blood with the warm water. The warmth of the water kept the veins open. So many who try this method fail because the blood coagulates. So much for the mechanics...

robert b. iadeluca
March 9, 2004 - 02:06 pm
Hubert:-Welcome back! I thought we had lost you.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
March 9, 2004 - 02:29 pm
Letters Paul to Seneca, Seneca to Paul

robert b. iadeluca
March 9, 2004 - 02:59 pm
Although we have not yet arrived at the point where Durant is talking about Christianity, the possible existence of these Paul-Seneca letters remind us that even at the moment we are examining Roman literature, a new religion is gradually taking hold.

Robby

tooki
March 10, 2004 - 08:06 am
Thanks Mal, Justin, for bringing these ruminations of the mutual admiration society to the attention of the group.

Either it suffers in translation or it isn't well written in the orginal because it lacks the subtlety of true plotting. I especially liked, "...the frequent burnings of Rome," and while the Christians and Jews are punsihed, "that impious miscreant" goes on and on.

robert b. iadeluca
March 10, 2004 - 02:15 pm
"The first lesson of philosophy is that we cannot be wise about everything.

"We are fragments in infinity and moments in eternity. For such forked atoms to describe the universe, or the Supreme Being, must make the planets tremble with mirth.

"Therefore Seneca has little use for metaphysics or theology. One may prove out of his writings that he was a monotheist, a polytheist, a pantheist, a materialist, a Platonist, a monist, a dualist. Sometimes God is to him a personal Providence who watches over all, 'loves good men,' answers their prayers, and helps them by divine grace. In other passages God is the First Cause in an unbroken chain of causes and effects, and the ultimate force is Fate, 'an irrevocable cause which carries along human and divine affairs equally leading the willing and dragging the unwilling along.'

"A like indecision obscures his conception of the soul. It is a finely material breath animating the body, but it is also 'a god dwelling as a guest' in the human frame. He speaks hopefully of a life beyond death, where knowledge and virtue will be perfected. And again he calls immortality 'a beautiful dream'

"In truth Seneca has never thought these matters out to a consistent (or public) conclusion. He talks of them with the cautious inconsistency of a politician who agrees with everybody.

"He has followed too successfully his father's oratorical lessons, and expresses every point of view with irresistable eloquence.

"The same hesitations mar and grace his moral philsophy. He is too Stoic to be practical, and too lenient to be Stoic. He sees about him an immorality that exhausts the body and debases the soul, never satisfying either. Avarice and luxury have destroyed peace and health, and power has made man only an abler brute.

How shall one free himself from this ignominious agitation?"

Is that the sense in which we have become more Civilized -- that we are a "nobler brute?"

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 11, 2004 - 05:07 am
Participants here do not seem interested in discussing Philosophy and Seneca, based upon recent activity. Here is a bit more.

"Philosophy is the science of wisdom, and wisdom is the art of living.

"Happiness is the goal, but virtue, not pleasure, is the road.

"The old ridiculed maxims are correct and are perpetually verified by experience. In the long run honesty, justicee, forbearance, kindliness, bring us more happiness than ever comes from the pursuit of pleasure.

"Pleasure is good, but only when consistent with virtue. It cannot be a wise man's goal. Those who make it their end in life are like the dog that snaps at every piece of meat thrown to it, swalllows it whole, and then, instead of enjoying it, stands with jaws agape anxiously awaiting more.

"But how does one acquire wisdom? By practicing it daily, in however, modest a degree. By examining your conduct of each day at its close. By being harsh to your own faults and lenient to those of others.

"By associating with those who excel you in wisdom and virtue. By taking some acknowledged sage as your invisible counselor and judge.

"You will be helped by reading the philosophers. Not outline stories of philosophy, but the original works. 'Give over hoping that you can skim, by means of epitomes, the wisdom of distinguished men. Every one of these men will send you away happier and more devoted. No one of them will allow you to depart empty-handed.'

"Read good books many times, rather than many books. Travel slowly, and not too much. 'The spirit cannot mature into unity unless it has checked its curiosity and its wandering.

"The primry sign of a well-ordered mind is a man's ability to remain in one place and linger in his own company. Avoid crowds. Men are more wicked together than separately. If you are forced to be in a crowd, then most of all you should withdraw i nto yourself.'"

Unless there is some discussion about Philosophy, we will move onto Science.

Robby

tooki
March 11, 2004 - 07:37 am
If "philosophy is the science of wisdom, and wisdom is the art of living," does knowing and practicing philosophical living make one a better parent?

A philosopher I once knew maintained that the study of philosophy would make him a better parent. (He was a real philosopher in that he did what contemporary philosophers do: he taught at a large and fancy university and published difficult books about arcane subjects such as, "How We Know What We Know," read only by other philosophers.)

As his children grew, his eldest son became a great trial: drugs, juvenile delinquency, and other misbegotten behaviors. After much stress it was determined that his son was a schizophrenic and was probably incurable. When I lost touch with the father the now adult son was living at home, was not capable of living his own life, and the father managed him. I think there's a moral here, but I am unable to find it.

Addendum: the phrase "wisdom is the art of living," is difficult to understand because it plays loose and fast with the commonly accepted meanings of 'wisdom' and 'living.' Thus, it is difficult to discuss since Durant's meanings are unclear. Does he mean wisdom is an art, art is wisdom, living is wisdom, living is an art? All of these are topics worth discussing, but not all at once. There is the same lack of clarity for "philosophy is the science of wisdom." If philosophy is a science then what follows about wisdom?

Don't get me wrong; Durant can't be wonderful all the time, can he?

robert b. iadeluca
March 11, 2004 - 08:08 am
Tooki:-You use the term "Durant's meanings." It is my understanding that he is giving Seneca's meanings.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 11, 2004 - 09:08 am
Here is an ARTICLE OF INTEREST for those here who participated in The Life of Greece.

Robby

tooki
March 11, 2004 - 09:57 am
I think part of the problem with understanding what is going on here, that is, what is being said, is it seems impossible to determine whose voice is it we are hearing.

I, obviously, took it to be Durant's voice, and you, Robby, took it to be Seneca's. If it is Seneca speaking it should have been quoted or made clear that it was a paraphrase. If it is Durant's voice, surely his role as historian necessiates some amount of interpretation of Seneca because as it stands now, the passage is guilty of what I "accused" it of above: playing fast and loose with the meanings of words, a grievous error in philosophical conversation.

However all this may be, I'm ready to move on to matters that may be grounded in cold, hard facts, such as medicine and science. Unclear, philosophical mutterings sap one's strength.

robert b. iadeluca
March 11, 2004 - 10:02 am
This has been my policy throughout the time I have been DL here. If it is in italics and within quotes, it is Durant speaking and directly out of the book. If it is non-italics and NOT in quotes or in the color red, then those are my words.

Robby

Scrawler
March 11, 2004 - 11:21 am
"We are fragments in infinity and moments in eternity. For such forked atoms to describe the universe, or the Supreme Being, must make the planets tremble with mirth."

I have often thought this myself. For all our "puffing-up" that we do human beings are in reality only a mere speck in the nature of things. How then could we even dare think of coming up with anything resembling metaphysics or theology.

"The first lesson of philosophy is that we cannot be wise about everything."

I'd have to agree that the first lesson about philosophy is that. And I think within that statement lies the answer as to why we as human beings continue to study philosophy. If we accept that we are not wise about all things, then it becomes almost an obsession to do so!It is the journey that we seek.

"But how does one acquire wisdom?" "Read good books many times, rather than many books. Travel slowly, and not too much. 'The spirit cannot mature into unity unless it has checked its curiosity and its wandering.'"

But I think it is "curiosity and its wandering" that gives us our wisdom. I'd have to disagree about the fact that you should not read many books. I think reading whether or not the books are good or not brings us wisdom. If only with the fact that we do not like what we have read. Than again travely slowly and observing life is sound advice. In our day we seem to travel at faster than the speed of light sometimes. That's why I refuse to have an "electronic gadget" that goes faster than I do. I like to dwell and observe the beauty that surrounds me slowly and carefully.

Malryn (Mal)
March 11, 2004 - 11:52 am
I had no trouble understanding that Durant was explaining what Seneca said.

Rather than a politician who plays for votes by taking everybody's stand, perhaps Seneca was examining every possibility he could think of to see how they fit together, and without advocating one.

Mal

Fifi le Beau
March 11, 2004 - 12:14 pm
Thank you Mal for all the wonderful links you provide to make this site a pleasure to read. In Mal's #200 she provided a link to Senecas essays in translation. Senecas essay "To Marcia on Consolation" is there and it gives insight into Senaca's brilliant, intelligent mind. You do not have to agree with all he says, but his writing is superb.

Which leads me to believe that he did not write the letters to Paul. These seem to have been written by the same person, trying to forge a correspondence that never happened, at least in these letters. Seneca was prolific in his writing and detailed. These letters say nothing really except Dear Paul and Dear Seneca.

Seneca's "To Marcia on Consolation" has been used in my "Compassionate Friends" group as an example of the different ways that people mourn the loss of a child. In his essay his is pleading with Marcia to go forward with her life and not emulate Octavia who refused to go forward. He much preferred Livia's way and held her as an example for Marcia to follow.

Seneca can be hard on women, but this was two thousand years ago and all women were seen as not strong like men in either physical or mental strength. I know all his arguments by heart because at one time they were directed at me. His words, "unwilling to live and unable to die" described me but helped me also change course.

Compassionate Friends is non-judgemental and accepts all forms of mourning, but we do discuss what helps us in terrible times of despair. Things haven't changed much in 2000 years in mourning the death of a child, so Seneca is as meaningful today as then. He discusses much more than mourning in this essay, and the reader can get a better look at his realistic look at life.

Seneca seems a realist to me. Honesty can be off-putting to those who choose not to see life as it really is, and prefer a little rose color in their glasses. I am a realist, and a day-dreamer so I do run that rose colored program in the background for escape, but it never infringes on the real world.

......

Malryn (Mal)
March 11, 2004 - 12:50 pm
That's a great post, FIFI. Thanks for telling us about Compassionate Friends and Seneca and realism.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
March 11, 2004 - 01:46 pm
"Life took Seneca at his word.

"Nero sent a tribune to seek his answer to the charge that he had plotted to make Piso emperor. Seneca replied that he was no longer interested in politics, and sought nothing but peace and the opportunity to attend to 'a weak and crazy constitution.' Reported the tribune, 'He showed no symptom of fear, no sign of sorrow, his words and looks bespoke a mind serene, erect, and firm.' Said Nero, 'Return and tell him to die.' Says Tacitus, 'Seneca heard the message with calm composure.'

"He embraced his wife, and bade her be comforted by the honorableness of his life and the lessons of philosophy. But Paulina refused to outlive him. When his veins were opened she had hers opened too. He called for a secretary and dictated a letter of farewell to the Roman people.

"He asked and received a drink of hemlock, as if resolved to die like Socrates. As the physician placed him in a warm bath to ease his pain, he sprinkled the nearest servants with the water, saying 'a libation to Jove the Deliverer' and after much suffering he passed away (65).

"At Nero's command the physician forcibly bound Paulina's wrists and stopped the flow of her blood. She survived her husband a few years but her perpetual pallor recalled her stoic resolution.

"To the end of antiquity and through the Middle Ages he remained popular. Montaigne's brother-in-law translated him into French. Emerson read him again and again and became an American Seneca.

"With all his faults he was the greatest of Rome's philosophers and, at least in his books, one of the wisest and kindliest of men. Next to Cicero he was the most lovable hypocrite in history."

Robby

Justin
March 11, 2004 - 03:31 pm
Fifi: Your 219 is a great post. I too, thought the letters trivial and therefore not the work of Seneca. The contrast in the language and thought content of the essays,it seems to me, confirms that observation. His aphorisms on happiness and virtue as distinct from pleasure suggest an awareness of the good feeling that comes from accomplishment. Just reaching a goal can be so exhilerating. When he died he went out with "assisted suicide"- a crude form of Kevorkian end.

robert b. iadeluca
March 11, 2004 - 03:40 pm
But the "assisted suicide" was at the request of the emperor, not the "patient." And the physician helped one to die and forced the other one to live. I wonder if that physician was aware of the Hippocratic Oath which came into existence not too long before that date.

Robby

Shasta Sills
March 11, 2004 - 03:41 pm
I doubt if the study of philosophy would have anything to do with being a good parent. But I also doubt if schizophrenia would result from bad parenting. Robbie would know more than I do about this, but isn't it due to some kind of chemical imbalance?

When Seneca said to read only a few good books, he probably didn't have access to all the books we have access to today. During my working years, I constantly bought books that I didn't have time to read and put them on my shelf. I said, "When I retire, I am going to do all the reading I want to do." This is one of the few things about retirement that worked out the way I hoped it would. If only I live long enough to read all those books!

JoanK
March 11, 2004 - 04:48 pm
MAL, FIFI: great to read Seneca. Thanks.

robert b. iadeluca
March 11, 2004 - 07:06 pm
Shasta:-There was a time when schizophrenia was thought to be due to bad mothering, but that has been discredited. It appears that there is a genetic predisposition.

As for unread books, that is exactly why I became the DL of this eleven volume set. It sat on my shelf for decades and suddenly I realized that I had the opportunity to read each book, but now with the enrichment that comes when we read together. So I do this for a selfish reason, always hoping that there are others who are reading with me.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 12, 2004 - 04:53 am
Roman Science

robert b. iadeluca
March 12, 2004 - 05:03 am
"We have given Seneca too much space. Nevertheless, we have not finished with him yet, for he was also a scientist. In those fertile years between his retirement and his death he amused himself with Quaestiones Naturales, and sought natural explanation of rain, hail, snow, wind, comets, rainbows, earthquakes, rivers, springs.

"In his drama Medea he had suggested the existence of another continent beyond the Atlantic. With similar intuition, contemplating the overwhelming multitude of stars, he wrote, 'How many an orb, moving in the depths of space, has never yet reached the eyes of men!' And he adds, clairvoyantly, 'How many things our sons will learn that we cannot now suspect -- what others await centuries when our names will be forgotten! Our descendants will marvel at our ignorance.' We do.

"Seneca, though always eloquent, adds little to Aristotle and Aratus, and borrows abundantly from Poseidonius. He believes in divination despite Cicero, lapses into ludicrous teleology despite Lucretius, and interrupts his science at every turn to inculcate morality. He passes skillfully from mussels to luxury, and from comets to degeneration.

"The Fathers of the Church liked this mixture of meteorology and morals, and made the Quaestiones Naturales the most popular textbook of science in the Middle Ages."

Any comments about Science?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
March 12, 2004 - 06:29 am
Mix religion and morality with science, and you lose science.

Quaestiones Naturales

Scrawler
March 12, 2004 - 11:03 am
I think philosophy and science go hand in hand. I can't see how how you could understand one without understanding the other, so it doesn't surprise me that Seneca included science in his works. Generations upon generations have been trying understand nature in all her wonders. I can remember as a child being afraid of thunder and lightning, until I read the stories about the Vikings and their god of thunder Thor. These wonderful stories helped ease my fears and in a small sense presented a philosophy unto themselves. In a sense philosophy tries to guide us with our lives and uses the facts of science to help bring that about.

HubertPaul
March 12, 2004 - 01:19 pm
Wisdom begins only when you apply in practice what you absorb in theory.

Justin
March 13, 2004 - 01:17 am
Pliny left us little more than an encyclopedia of Roman ignorance. He listened to slaves reading contemporary books and synopsized what he heard in his encyclopedia. Writers who dealt with art, artists, and art techniques were thus included in Pliny. He tells us in several books who the artists were and explains the Greek heritage in Roman art.

Pliny tells us much about the way Romans thought of women. The look of a menstruating woman will sterilize seeds, blunt the edge of steel, and take the polish from ivory. If her look falls upon a swarm of bees, they will die at once. Women, he says, should not sneeze after coitus. Abortion could occur then and there.

Pliny was writing about 70 CE, the same period in which Paul of Tarsus was writing his views of women. Pauls views, which are similar, but more vitriolic, were more influential over the course of the last two millennia. It is no wonder women have been degraded over the centuries.

tooki
March 13, 2004 - 07:46 am
And here I always attributed it to the power of my PERSONALITY.

It seems safe to say at this point that the Romans didn't excell at abstract theorizing, as compared to the Greeks, but did at the concrete (is that a pun?) realization of their many practical projects of building bridges, buildings, viaducts, and roads.

I wonder why such a difference in the character of the people. Environment? Rome was such a swampy place that early on they had to figure out how to drain it, maybe. Ethnic background? Maybe, the Greeks developed from those "Sea Peoples," and the Romans developed from "Latines." Religion?

Because of the proximity of these two peoples and countries, I wonder at the huge differences.

robert b. iadeluca
March 13, 2004 - 12:06 pm
I wonder that myself, Tooki. Durant indicated that the whole Roman culture was warlike, not just the leaders. What caused the change?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 13, 2004 - 12:08 pm
Roman Medicine

robert b. iadeluca
March 13, 2004 - 12:25 pm
"The Natural History is a lasting monument to Roman ignorance. Pliny gathers superstitions, portents, love charms, and magic cures as assiduously s anything else, and apparently believes in most of them. He thinks that a man, especially if fasting, can kill a snake by spitting into its mouth.

"It is well known that in Lusitania the mares become impregnated by the west wind. Pliny condemns magic. But 'on the approach of a menstruating woman,' he informs us, 'must will sour and seeds touched by her will become sterile and fruit will fall from the tree under which she sits. Her look will blunt the edge of steel and take the polish from ivory. If it falls upon a swarm of bees they will die at once.'

"Pliny rejects astrology and then fills pages with 'prognostics' derived from the behavior of the sun and the moon.

"When we reflect that this book, and Seneca's Quaestiones, were the chief legacy of Roman natural science to the Middle Ages, and compare them with the corresponding works and temper of Aristotle and Theophrastus four hundred years earlier, we begin to feel the slow tragedy of a dying culture. The Romans had conquered the Greek world, but they had already lost the most precious part of its heritage.

"They did better in medicine. Medical science too they borrowed from the Greeks, but they formulated it well, and applied it ably to personal and public hygiene. Rome, almost surrounded by marshes, and subject to mephitic floods, had particular need of public sanitation.

"About the second century B.C. we hear of malaria in Rome. the anopheles mosquito had settled down in the Pontine swamps. Gout spread as luxury increased. The youngerPliny tells how his friend Corellius Rufus suffered its pains from his thirty-third to his sixty-seventh year before committing suicide, just to have the pleasure of outliving by one day 'that brigand Domitian.'

"Some passages in the Roman satirists suggest the apperance of syphilis in the first century A.D. Great epidemics swept central Italy in 23 B.B., A.D. 65, 79, and 166."

Perhaps someone here can help me. I am coming to believe that the beliefs of the Middle Ages (the Dark Ages) are directly related back to the beliefs within the Roman Empire. I am wondering why those in the Middle Ages looked more toward Rome rather than toward the intellectuals of Ancient Greece.

Robby

tooki
March 13, 2004 - 09:29 pm
The Romans Legions spread over all Europe with "all roads leading to Rome." The Legions were permanently stationed in various countries for their ten or more year hitches and then given land. So they stayed, melting into the local populations, along with their superstitiions and beliefs. (Remember, there was no longer any land left for the veterans in Italy). The Roman civilization, such as it was, was all the locals knew. No wonder the Dark Ages were dark. With role models like the Romans, Europe didn't have a chance.

Meanwhile, the Greeks were safely isolated in Greece doing who knows what during these years. They'd had their fifteen centuries of fame.

Armies throughout history haven't been given credit, if it can be called credit, for their effects on captive peoples.

Justin
March 14, 2004 - 12:58 am
Certainly, Rome spread its culture to the known world at the turn of the millennium but it must be remembered that Roman culture was Greco-Roman in origin. Very little of what Romans carried to the world was Rome's own.

The religion of the Middle Ages was eastern in origin. Medicinal knowledge came to Rome from Greece. The mathematics, which underlay the engineering work of the Roman armies was Greek not Roman. Roman art is pure Greek. It can be successfully argued that all Roman art is Greek art. It was eastern influence that Rome spread to the known world.

Rome had nothing to give to the world but its power to conquer and with that a power to transport Greek culture (but only as much as Romans could absorb).

robert b. iadeluca
March 14, 2004 - 02:16 am
Justin:-You say that "Rome gave to the world the power to transport Greek culture."

Therein lies my question. Why didn't this come across during the Dark Ages. Why did Rome have a difficulty in absorbing this culture?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 14, 2004 - 02:58 am
"The people had of old tried to meet disease and plague with magic and prayer. Even now they begged the skeptical but complaisant Vespasian to heal their blindness with his spittle and their lameness with the touch of his foot. They brought their illnesses and votive offerings to the temples of Aesculapius and Minerva and many left gifts in gratitude for cures.

"But in the first century B.C. they turned more and more to secular medicine. There was as yet no state regulation of medical practice. Shoemakers, barbers, carpenters, added it to their operations as they pleased, called in magic to their aid, and compounded, touted, and sold their own drugs. There were the usual satires and complaints. Pliny repeated old Cato's imprecations upon Greek physicians who 'seduce our wives, grow rich by feeding us poisons, learn by our suffering, and experiment by putting us to death.'

"Petronius, Martial, and Juvenal joined in the assault. A century later Lucian would score incompetent practitioners who hide their incapacity under the elegance of their apparatus.

"Nevertheless, medicine, as we shall see, had made great progress in Alexandria, Cos, Tralles, Miletus, Ephesus, and Peregamum. From these centers came Greek physicians who so raised the level of Roman practice that Caesar enfranchised the profession in Rome, and Augustus exempted it from taxation.

"Asclepiades of Prusa won the friendship of Caesar, Crassus, and Antony. He declared that the heart pumps blood and air through the body. He rarely prescribed drugs or drastic purges. He accomplished impressive cures by hydrotherapy (baths, fomentations, enemas), massage, sunshine, exercise (walking, horseback riding), diet, fasting, and abstinence from meat. He was distinguished for his treatment of malaria, his operations on the throat, and his humane handling of the insane. He gathered pupils about him, and took some of them with him on his rounds.

"After his death they and similar students formed themselves into collegia and built for themselves a meeting place, on the Esquiline, called Schola Medicorum."

Any thoughts on this subject?

Robby

Bubble
March 14, 2004 - 06:08 am
Even now they begged the skeptical but complaisant Vespasian to heal their blindness with his spittle and their lameness with the touch of his foot.

It reminds me much of the French king Charles?)whose touch of hand was supposed to cure leprosy and boils.

Bubble

P.S. Thanks Robby, I will be back soon... I HAD TO answer that one! lol Thanks for greetings

robert b. iadeluca
March 14, 2004 - 06:10 am
Bubble!! So good to see you back. Hope you are feeling better.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
March 14, 2004 - 07:37 am
I think the answer to your question, ROBBY, is Christianity. How could those righteous Medieval Christians equate what they were with fun-loving Greeks? Onward Christian Soldiers, man.

Mal

tooki
March 14, 2004 - 07:51 am
I think the answers are all of the above. I suppose it's the way human minds are build that we attempt to find AN ANSWER. Historical causation consists of multitudinous, ambiguous, and vague strands of happenings; small streams and rivelets finally joining together to form the great river of history.

Take that with your coffee on a lazy Sunday morning! That sentence should win me the pompous phrase award for the day. Now I'm going for a walk which might clear my mind, but don't hope for good fortune yet.

robert b. iadeluca
March 14, 2004 - 07:56 am
With that sentence, Tooki, you are now entitled to one free posting!! I have printed it out and saving it for further analysis.

Robby

Scrawler
March 14, 2004 - 10:51 am
Both the Greek and Roman physicians and those who practiced medicine were just beginning to understand that they had to pursue the diagnosis and treatment of the physical causes of disease within a scientific framework. They also tried to cure those diseases caused by the mind as well. In a more modern sense they took a holistic approach to health although for the most part they accepted that mental causes of disease were interpreted as the patient having displeased the deities. I might add that much of what the Greeks and Romans practiced was based on Egyptian formulas. In turn much of what was learned from Egypt came from the Sumerians. And most medicines were the result of trial and error.

robert b. iadeluca
March 14, 2004 - 10:55 am
And so, Scrawler, following your train of thought, what medical practices we do today can be traced back to the Romans, Greeks, Egyptians, and Sumerians. And we can also say that much of today's medicine (which is an art, not a science) is also trial and error.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 14, 2004 - 11:07 am
"Under Vespasian auditoria were opened for the teaching of medicine, and recognized professors were paid by the state. Greek was the language of instruction, as Latin is now the language of prescription, and for a like reason -- its intelligibility to persons of diverse tongues.

"Graduates of these state schools received the title of medicus a republica, and after Vespasian they alone could legally practice medicine in Rome. The lex Aquilia provided for state supervision of physicians, and held them responsible for negligence. The lex Cornelia severely punished practitioners whose carelessness or culpable ignorance caused the death of a patient. Quacks continued, but sound practice increased. Midwives saw most Romans into the world, but many of these women were well trained.

"About A.D. 100 military medicine reached its ancient zenith. Every legion had twenty-four surgeons. First-aid and field ambulance service were well organized, and hospitals were maintained near every important encampment. Private hospitals (valetudinaria) were opened by physicians. From these evolved the public hospitals of the Middle Ages.

"Doctors were appointed and paid by the state to give free treatment to the poor. Rich men kept their own physicians, and well-paid archiatri ('chief healers') took care of the emperor, his family, his servants, and his aides. Sometimes families would contract with a doctor to attend to their health and illnesses for a period of time. In this way Quintus Stertinius made 600,000 sesterces a year.

"The surgeon Alcon, fined 10,000,000 sesterces by Claudius, paid it with a few years' fees."

Wealthy people paid directly for their medical care and there was free care for everyone else. How about that, folks?!!

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
March 14, 2004 - 01:00 pm
Tooki: "Historical causation consists of multitudinous, ambiguous, and vague strands of happenings; small streams and rivelets finally joining together to form the great river of history." That quote should should become permanent somewhere, although when great events are happening to us they seem like great rivers and to future generations become rivulets of history.

After almost three years in S of C, do you also have the feeling that Medicine, Arts and Sciences and the Economy are all born of Philosophy?

Eloïse

Malryn (Mal)
March 14, 2004 - 01:20 pm
"Little drops of water, little grains of sand,
Make the mighty ocean, and the pleasant land:
So the little minutes, humble though they be,
Make the mighty ages of eternity."

Is this snippet of a quote from a rhyme by Julia Carney what you mean in plain English, TOOKI? And you believe it, do you?

In my opinion, science, medicine and economics do not come under the label of inexact and abstract philosophy.

Medicine = art is a misnomer. Or should be. No freelance artist ever diagnosed and cured my ills, and I wouldn't let one try. I don't know about you.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
March 14, 2004 - 01:29 pm
Mal:-Physicians can be more "freelance" than you might think. You often hope that what they give you cures you. At the same time they often "hope" so too.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
March 14, 2004 - 02:04 pm
Oh, ROBBY, you're talking to the original surgical and medical guinea pig, who became one when she was a child. That's one reason I'm so deadset against medicine as an art and not a science. It's also why I take so much responsibility for my own body when an M.D. suggests treatment or surgery I know darned well isn't going to work. I'm not ever afraid to say no to one of these freelance artist doctors and demand one who isn't. That is my right as a patient. It is everyone's right.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
March 14, 2004 - 02:12 pm
"The profession now reached a high degree of specialization. There were urologists, gynecologists, obstetricians, ophthamologists, eye and ear specialists, veterinarians, dentists. Romans could have gold teeth, wired teeth, false teeth, bridgework, and plates.

"There were many women physicians. Some of them wrote manuals of abortion, which were popular among great ladies and prostitutes. Surgeons were divided into further specialities and seldom engaged in general practice. Mandragora juice or atropin was used as an anesthetic. Over 200 different surgical instruments have been found in the ruins of Pompeii.

"Dissection was illegal, but the examination of wounded or dying gladiators offered a frequent substitute. Hydrotherapy was popular. In a measure the great thermae were hydrotherapeutic institutes. Charmis of Marseilles made a fortune by administering cold baths. Consumptives were sent to Egypt or north Africa.

"Sulphur was used as a skin specific and to fumigate rooms after an infectious disease. Drugs were a final but frequent resort. Physicians made them by processes kept secret from the public and charged for them all that patients could be persuaded to pay.

"Repulsive drugs were held in high honor. The offal of lizards was used as a purgative. Human entrails were sometimes prescribed. Antonius Musa recommended the excreta of dogs for angina. Galen applied a boy's dung to swellings of the throat.

"In compensation for all this a cheerful quack offered to cure almost any ailment with wine."

Your comments, please?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
March 14, 2004 - 02:16 pm
I wonder how much of this came from Ancient Chinese medicine?

Mal

JoanK
March 14, 2004 - 03:04 pm
"And we can also say that much of today's medicine (which is an art, not a science) is also trial and error."

Don't forget that our beloved scientific method is a sophisticated version of "trial and error". But we (hopefully) use it on rats first before we try it on humans.

Shasta Sills
March 14, 2004 - 03:40 pm
Roman medicine doesn't sound all that bad to me. This was a long time ago, and they were learning medical techniques. I saw an interesting documentary about Galen recently on the history channel. I've also seen a picture of him in my doctor's office. When I asked who this was, he told me Galen was the father of modern medicine. He made precision instruments that could be used for surgery today. He knew about sterilizing his instruments. He could make dentures that still exist. When you remember that George Washingston wore wooden teeth, those Roman doctors must have been pretty sharp for their time.

Malryn (Mal)
March 14, 2004 - 04:08 pm
Better rats than me.

I'll tell you later about the methods my scientist ex-husband uses in his businesses, which happen to be in the medical field.

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
March 14, 2004 - 04:19 pm
"In 30 B.C. the famous Roman physician, Cornelius Celsus, described the technique (cataract surgery) in his classic book, On Medicine. The operation, called couching was used into the 20th century.

"Celsus's book was so good that physicians used it for more than 1,700 years. Claudius Galen (130-200 A.D.) wrote books on human anatomy that were best sellers for almost as long.

"Galen, by the way, often gets credit for developing a never-surpassed diagnostic procedure, taking the pulse.

"Long before Galen, ancient Chinese physicians realized that the pulse seemed harder in people who ate a lot of salty food. It may have been the first recognition of the link between too much table salt and high blood pressure."

Source:

Ancient Roman Medicine

kiwi lady
March 14, 2004 - 06:11 pm
I use tried and true herbal medicines a lot and they do more for me than many conventional drugs. I am lucky that I live in a country where the medical profession are open to alternative medicine if the patient requests it. I decided to take charge of my own treatment and now my doctor is very interested in results I get from different herbs etc. I still go to my doctor of course as I do need some prescription drugs but using herbal meds has enabled me to cut down on the conventional drug doses considerably. This has got to be good for me.

Carolyn

Justin
March 14, 2004 - 06:47 pm
Durant says that the people begged Vespasian to heal their blindness with his spittle, to heal the lame with his touch. I wonder if that expectation was common among the emperors. They were, after all, Gods. The same healing process seems to have been successfully undertaken by itinerant preachers as well.

The people brought their illnesses to the Temples and left gifts in gratitude for cures. Doesn't that sound like Lourdes in France and St Anne de Baupre in Montreal?

Éloïse De Pelteau
March 14, 2004 - 07:08 pm
I knew I was not smart enough to think that science was born of philosophy and it nagged at me. Where did I see that? Durant said that and by miracle, it stayed in my mind.

"Every science begins as philosophy and ends as art: It arises in hypothesis and flows into achievement. Philosophy is a hypothetical interpretation of the unknown (as in metaphysics), or of the inexactly known (as in ethics or political philosophy). It is the front trench in the siege of truth."

http://www.willdurant.com/pleasures.htm

Carolyn, my mother used grandmother remedies that I used for my children and use myself and fortunately I have a GP who is very open to home remedies. She even gave me a great one the other day and it worked. It cost pennies too. When I talk about that people just laugh.

Eloïse

Justin
March 14, 2004 - 10:37 pm
Do you suppose that things like castoria and icthymol are still useful? How about benzoine and Whitfield's ointment? Tannic Acid?

Justin
March 14, 2004 - 10:43 pm
Philosophy may assist in the development of hypothses but science is concerned with test design and measurement in the face of uncertainty.

Justin
March 14, 2004 - 11:39 pm
How about Carron oil? Is that used for any medicinal purposes these days?

3kings
March 15, 2004 - 01:19 am
Some years ago, lay folk decided that Comphrey (sp?) was the miracle herb that would lead to everlasting health. It was the cure for all illnesses. Then it was found to be poisonous. Following that there was something called colour therapy !

But then, a few years earlier, established medical practice was to use Mercury to cure Syphilis, and today, goodness knows what they use to try and cure Aids, or HIV, so we shouldn't laugh too much at the Old Wives' remedies. Some surely do have their uses.

Why were the Middle Ages so linked to Rome rather than Greece? I think it was the influence of the Church. The institution that we know as 'The Church' was founded, and nurtured in Rome. But that's a story we are coming to soon. == Trevor

robert b. iadeluca
March 15, 2004 - 05:53 am
Yes, Trevor, we will be coming to "The Church" not too long from now and the topic of health seems to be one of great interest. But let us get back to Durant.

"When Vespasian established a state professorship of rhetoric in Rome he appointed to it a man who, like so many authors of this Silver Age, was of Spanish birth. Marcus Fabius Quintilianus was born at Calagurris (A.D. 35?), went to Rome to study oratory, and opened a school of rhetoric there which numbered Tacitus and the younger Pliny among its pupils.

"Juvenal describes him in his prime as handsome, noble, wise, well bred, with a fine voice and delivery, and a senatorial dignity. His wife had died at nineteen, leaving him two sons. One of these had died at the age of five, 'robbing me, as it were, of one of my two eyes.' Now the other went, leaving the old teacher 'to outlive all my nearest and dearest.'

"He defines rhetoric as the science of speaking well. The training of the orator should begin before birth. It is desirable that he should come of educated parents, so that he may receive correct speech and good manners from the very air he breathes. It is impossible to become both educated and a gentleman in one generation.

"The future orator shold study music, to give him an ear for harmony -- the dance, to give him grace and rhythm -- drama, to animate his eloquence with gesture and action -- gymnastics, to keep him in health and strength -- literature, to form his style, train his memory, and arm him with a treasury of great thoughts -- science, to acquaint him with some understanding of nature -- and philosophy, to mold his character on the dictates of reason and the precepts of wise men.

"For all preparations will be of no avail unless integrity of conduct and nobility of spirit are present to generate an irresistible sincerity of speech. Then the student must write as much as possible and with the utmost care.

Says Quintilian:-'I trust that no one among my readers wold think of calculating its monetary value.'"

Maybe my age is showing but as I look around these days, I find very very few people who meet those criteria. The way some young people speak is atrocious and their parents aren't always that much better. The speech on the part of many, if not most, politicians is appalling.

Eating habits everywhere are disgusting. The so-called "music" of the younger set (I know - my age is showing again) has no harmony that I can hear. A "treasury of great thoughts?" HA! And gymnastics? We all know the obesity statistics these days.

So much for my positive comments of the morning!

Yes, Mal, I know there are exceptions.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
March 15, 2004 - 06:33 am
Yeah, ROBBY, I know I'm ornery. Don't worry. I won't post a word after this. Besides, I'm busy.
Vale. Back to my word processor.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
March 15, 2004 - 06:52 am
According to Quintilian:-

"The oration itself has five phases-

1 - Conception
2 - Arrangement
3 - Style
4 - Memory
5 - Delivery

"Having chosen his subject and clearly conceived his purpose, let the orator gather his material, from observation, inquiry, and books, and arrange it both logically and psychologically -- so that each part will be in its proper place and lead as naturally to the next as in geometry.

A well organized address will consist of -

1 -Introduction (exordium)
2 - Proposition
3 - Proof
4 - Refutation
5 - Peroration

"The speech should be written out only if it is to be fully memorized, otherwise fragmentary memories of the written form will obstruct and confuse an extempore style.

"If it is written, it must be with care. 'Write quickly and you wll never write well. Write well, and you will soon write quickly.' Shun the lazy 'luxury of dictation now so fashionable among writers.'

"Clearness is the first essential, then brevity, beauty, and vigor.

"Delivery, like composition, should touch the emotions, but avoid exuberant gesticulation. 'It is feeling and force of imagination that makes us eloquent but shout and below with uplifted hand, pant, wag your head, smite your hands together, slap your thigh, your breast, your forehead, and you will go sraight to the heart of the dingier members of your audience."

Any thoughts on rhetoric?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
March 15, 2004 - 06:58 am
QUINTILIAN posted by a non-Roman who eats alone in front of her computer, doesn't talk well because she has so few teeth left, isn't stuck in a 40's easy listening groove, but has to turn music up loud to be able to hear it, can't get much exercise, is overweight by 20 pounds, and has mice in her apartment. Boy, am I discouraged this gloomy Monday morning in North Carolina.

Half past Mal

Malryn (Mal)
March 15, 2004 - 07:03 am
About Insitutio Oratoria by Quintilian

Éloïse De Pelteau
March 15, 2004 - 12:55 pm
A good orator will make his audience feel good while he is telling them bad news.

Winston Churchill was that kind of an orator. During the Blitz the people never lost hope.

kiwi lady
March 15, 2004 - 02:04 pm
Have you noticed that many teens are talking in "text". In other words using orally the language they use on their text messaging. I am actually horrified at the lack of coherent conversation in three of my teenage nieces. Maybe oral English is going to have to become a compulsory subject in schools.

robert b. iadeluca
March 15, 2004 - 03:26 pm
I think this here conversation is like, ya know what I mean, like real cool, man.

Malryn (Mal)
March 15, 2004 - 04:38 pm
Click here to read about American author, Christopher Paolini. He wrote ERAGON, a fantasy bestseller, at 15. He is now 19.

tooki
March 15, 2004 - 10:05 pm
Eloise, in post 249, asks, "Do you have the feeling that medicine, etc., are all born of philosophy?" And Durant answers in Post 261, that philosophy is "the front trench in the siege of truth."

Many intellectuals, especially philosophers for some reason, consider philosophy to be the font of wisdom from which all other disciplines spring. For example, the philosophy of mind gave birth to psychology; natural history gave birth to science; logic gave birth to mathematics (say Russell and Whitehead).

This site, Branches of Philosophy touches on this issue, as does another link on its page, Schools of Philosophy. A glance at these sites indicates the complexity of the issue.

JoanK
March 15, 2004 - 11:35 pm
Cheer up, MAL. We may not be Roman orators, but if we had been, we would be dead by now (probably by being ordered to open our veins -- Seneca -- or having our heads cut off -- Cicero. Maybe we are better off keeping our mouths shut.

Justin
March 15, 2004 - 11:53 pm
In my experience public speakers are most convincing when their style of delivery is conversational rather than formal and didactic. Quintillian seems to agree for he puts most emphasis on speaking extempore and advises against writing out completely and memorizing. The organization he recommends may have been ok for Romans but not for moderns. Audiences would fall asleep listening to an introduction, proposition, proof, refutation, and peroration. Modern organizers advise, saying the most important thing you have to say first. Enbellish it and conclude by saying it again. One says the BIG thing first when audiences are awake and again in the conclusion so it is remembered when they disburse.

Malryn (Mal)
March 16, 2004 - 04:59 am
Okay, now that I've regained some equanimity and have finished writing five chapters of my new book, I'm going to tell you what was bothering me yesterday. It offends me as much to hear generalities, even when qualified occasionally by the word, "some", about youths as it does when I hear people talk about stereotypical senior citizens who are non-productive, at least half senile, and sit looking out windows thinking about the the "good old days", moaning and groaning all the time about everything under the sun that is wrong with them and the world around them.

American jazz and today's Rock, Punk, Funk and Fusion, Latin and Caribbean music are based on ancient African rhythms, harmonies and themes. It is much more natural than the melodies and harmonies of the Swing music of our time, which was arranged by a musical arranger according to a simple, very unimaginative, non-creative, mathematical progression of chords.

The speech patterns, idioms and slang of my day were as offensive to the ears of elders as the speech patterns and idioms and slang of today. This fact is evident if one takes time enough to think about it.

Today's diet is based on a culture which is enamored with speed. So are our fast food eating habits. There is no time for cooking, dining, or thought about cuisine.

Finally, I have written to a scientist I know to ask whether he and his colleagues believe, as non-scientist Will Durant does, that what he and they do and how they do it is based on philosophy.

That's my speech of today, and if I were orating it, I'd probably say it better than any of you because I studied voice, voice projection, inflection and pronunciation of words, or elocution, for years and years. I also raised two sons, who as actors are better at voice projection, inflection and pronunciation than I am.

I hope you have as productive a day as I know I will today. Happy Tuesday to all of you.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
March 16, 2004 - 05:10 am
"That's my speech of today, and if I were orating it, I'd probably say it better than any of you."

Anything in your studies, Mal, about Humility?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
March 16, 2004 - 05:19 am
Thank you, ROBBY. The most humble thing I can think of right now is to disappear. For all intents and purposes, invisible and inaudible is how I live my circumstance-caused, reclusive life, so I'll carry it over to here. I apologize.

Mal

tooki
March 16, 2004 - 07:44 am
Once in a while Mal's comments make me feel that what I have said, intending my views to be taken in the spirit of friendly conversation, must be defended.

In that spirit I wish to defend my statements that support what Durant said. I.e., philosophy is the basis of all knowledge and wisdom. By this is meant what is called these days "philosophical methodology," essentially what we learned from Socrates.

THIS SITE makes clear the connection(s) between philosophy and science. There are many more sites discussing this topic, but I picked this one because it ties in so well with our discussions.

robert b. iadeluca
March 16, 2004 - 12:34 pm
I don't see where any of us here have to "defend" anything we say. We have opinions and we give them. We are entitled to do that. I am pleased that over the two years plus that we have been here, 99 9/10 of us have stuck to issues and not personalities. And issues are fair game.

And sometimes we kid each other and that's OK too. I am not one of those who uses little faces, letters like BG, etc. I just crack my little joke, hope that it is seen for the "humor" that it is, and go on with my life.

Robby

Justin
March 16, 2004 - 01:09 pm
I found a NYT article in the HOPE discussion relevant to the Civilization discussion. It concerns human sacrifice in Egypt at the end of the reign of the first Pharaoh in 2950 BCE. Anne Alden's post #2 links to NYT and the Times home page links to Egyptian article.

Justin
March 16, 2004 - 01:22 pm
Webster says philosophy is the pursuit of wisdom. Scientists are interested in empirical evidence of truth which brings wisdom. Does that make scientists and philosophers equal?

robert b. iadeluca
March 16, 2004 - 01:58 pm
"We have left to the last two poets who belonged to the same epoch, sought the favor of the same emperor and the same patrons, and yet never mention each other. One the purest, the other the coarsest, poet in the history of imperial Rome.

"Publius Papinius Statius was the son of a Neapolitan poet and grammarian. His environment and his education gave him everything but money and genius. He lisped in numbers, startled salons with poetical improvisations, and wrote an epic, the Thebaid, on the war of the Seven against Thebes.

"We cannot read it today, for its movement is obstructed with dead gods, and its smooth verses have an overpowering virtus dormitiva. But his contemporaries liked it. Crowds gathered to hear him recite it in a Naples theater. They understood his mythological machinery, welcomed the delicacy of his sentiment, and found that his lines ran trippingly on the tongue. The judges in the Alban poetry contest gave him the first prize. Rich men became his friends and helped him stave off penury.

"Domitian himself invited him to dinner in the domus Flavia, and Statius repaid him by describing the palace as heaven and the Emperor as god."

Robby

Justin
March 16, 2004 - 03:01 pm
While Statius in his poem "On Sleep", refers to Morpheus as the silent boy-god, Sleep, he treats us to poetry we can easily understand. Sleep eludes him so he writes...

What sin was mine, sweet silent boy-god, Sleep,
Or what poor sufferer have I left undone
That I should lack thy guerdon, I alone?

Shasta Sills
March 16, 2004 - 03:06 pm
Speaking of public speaking, something that drives me up the wall is when the speaker repeats this idiot phrase over and over, "you know"..."you know"..."you know"... What he is actually saying is, "I hope you know what I'm talking about, because I sure as heck don't know."

robert b. iadeluca
March 16, 2004 - 03:53 pm
"Marcus Valerius Martialis was born at Bilbilis in Spain in the fortieth year of our era. At twenty-four he came to Rome and won the friendship of Lucan and Seneca. Quintilian advised him to butter his bread by practicing law, but Martial preferred to starve on poetry. His friends were suddenly swept away in the conspiracy of Piso, and he was reduced to addressing his poems to rich men who might give him a dinner for an epigram.

"He lived in a third-floor garret, probably alone. For though he indites two poems to a woman whom he calls his wife, they are so foul that she must have been an invention or a bawd.

"His poems, he lets us know, were read throughout the Empire, even among the Goths. He rejoices to learn that he was almost as famous as a racehorse, but he fretted to see his publisher enriched while he himself received nothing from the sale of his books. He descended to suggesting, in an epigram, that he badly needed a toga. The Emperor's rich freedman Parthenius sent him one. He replied in two stanzas, one of which celebrated the newness of the garment, the other its cheap worthlessness.

"In time he found some more generous patrons. One gave him a little farm at Nomentum, and somehow he raised funds to buy a simple home on the Quirinal hill. He became a 'client' or retainer to one rich man after another, waited upon them in the morning, and received an occasional gift. But he felt the shame of his situation and mourned that he did not have the courage to be contentedly poor and therefore free.

"He could not afford to be poor, for he had to mingle in the society of men who could reward his verse. He showered Domitian with lauds and announced that if Jupiter and Domitian were to invite him to dinner on the same day he would turn down the god. But the Emperor preferred Statius.

"Martial became jealous of the younger poet and suggested that a live epigram was worth more than a dead epic."

Just why is it -- either in our era or 2000 years ago -- that the writer is poor and the publisher rich?

Robby

Justin
March 16, 2004 - 05:38 pm
Because marketing is a fruitful and honorable profession.

Justin
March 16, 2004 - 05:47 pm
Martial writes of a "Happy Life".

Dear, pleasant Martial, listen if you please;
The secrets of a happy life are these:
Wealth, not by labor earned, but from thy sire;
A fertle field; an ever blazing fire;
Amind at ease, and moderate strength of arm
A healthful body; wise simplicity:
Friends like thyself, and pleasant company;
A board well furnished aye with homely fare;
Thy nights not riotous, but free from care
Nowise morose, yet modest be thy bed
Light be thy slumber, soon night's shadow sped;
Pleased with thy lot,for nothing further pray;
Nor dread, nor wish to see, life's final day.

tooki
March 16, 2004 - 09:23 pm
Unfortunately, I was unable to locate those really bawdy epigrams by Martial that Durant speaks about. THESE witty, but tame, samples of his poetry will have to suffice.

JoanK
March 16, 2004 - 09:32 pm
His reference to th cross is interesting: "Every bird that upwards swings Bears the Cross upon its wings".

The cross may have been a general image of suffering, as well as a Christian symbol?

Justin
March 16, 2004 - 11:30 pm
Joan K: I think you are right about the cross. When we come to the Jesus section, it will be necessary to see events in the eyes of the Romans, the Saducees, the Pharicees, the Sanhedrine, and Jesus as well as his pals. Like the elephant story with the blind men events will be seen from many differing points of view.

3kings
March 17, 2004 - 01:58 am
I have yet to hear of one great Scientific discovery made by a philosopher, or one great school of Philosophy founded by a scientist.

One, the philosopher, lives in a mental world, largely divorced from the real world. The scientist spends his life trying to get to grips with reality. These two are as different as, well, as chalk and cheese. == Trevor

JoanK
March 17, 2004 - 02:08 am
TREVOR: I don't agree. Philosophers may not be GOOD scientists, and scientists may not be GOOD philosophers, true. But both are drawn into the other's questions by their attempts to understand the universe.

Éloïse De Pelteau
March 17, 2004 - 04:09 am
Trevor, If science and philosophy didn't belong together, I wonder why a University of Science and Philosophy would have been founded. Science developed because philosophers were asking questions that were beyond their reach. Both disciplines never attain the ultimate truth, but they both try to explain nature's exquisite perfection as Joan says.

Eloïse

robert b. iadeluca
March 17, 2004 - 04:43 am
Eloise:-That University (your link) is located in Waynesboro, Virginia -- just an hour or so from where I live. It is located in what is known as the Bible Belt. After clicking onto that Link, then click onto "Science", read what it says, and come to your own conclusions as to what they mean by Science. I don't want to be judgemental in advance but I tend to be sceptical about what they call "science."

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
March 17, 2004 - 05:00 am
Robby, I looked again and they only show a minute part of 'science'. What do you mean by "I tend to be sceptical about what they call "science."" Perhaps we don't have the same idea of what science is. But since you live close to that University, perhaps you should explain what their purpose is. Don't they teach a variety of sciences, Engineering, Physics, Biology, Cosmology, Electronics and others? I was just trying to point out that Sciences stemmed from Philosophy. I would like to understand more about that.

Eloïse

robert b. iadeluca
March 17, 2004 - 05:06 am
Eloise:-I don't know in detail what they teach and don't have the time at the moment to follow up. I am merely pointing out that in this area there are numerous elementary and high schools and colleges that have a strong religious bent.

I am leaving in an hour or so for Richmond but tomorrow will try to follow up.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 17, 2004 - 06:02 am
"Martial's obscenity sits on him lightly. He shares it with his time, and never doubts that even highborn maidens in palace bowers will like it. More often he is a bit ashamed of it, and begs us to believe that his life is cleaner than his verse.

"At last he tired of purveying compliments and insults as a source of food. He began to long for a quieter, wholesomer life, and the haunts of his native Spain. He was now fifty-seven, with gray head and bushy beard, so swarthy that anyone, he tells us, could see at a glance that he had been born near the Tagus.

"He addressed a poetical bouquet to the younger Pliny and received in return a sum that paid his fare to Bilbilis. The little town welcomed him, forgiving his morals for his fame. He found simpler patrons there, but more open-handed than those at Rome. A kindly lady presented him with a modest villa, and there he spent his few remaining years.

"There must have been some secret virtue in the man if Pliny loved him."

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
March 17, 2004 - 06:22 am
If you'll permit me, I'd like to explain my view of philosophy and science. To me philosophies can be equated with religion. They are based on belief and faith which do not have to be substantiated by facts or proof.

Science is a general term. There are many different kinds of science. All of them are approached by using what is called the Scientific Method of:
Hypothesis
Theory
and Proof
First there is an Hypothesis. For example: Your car won't start. Your first hypothesis is that the battery is low. If that's not the problem, you use other hypotheses.

Second, there comes a Scientific Theory. A theory represents an hypothesis, or group of related hypotheses, which has been proven by repeated tests or experiments. If these experiments work, there then comes about a proven Scientific Law. If the experiments do not work, the hypothesis, or group of hypotheses, is thrown out, and the scientist begins all over again with a new and different hypothesis.

Early exploration of various types of science, especially astronomy, were done by philosophers who went beyond belief and faith to formulate and use the Scientific Method. Witness Galileo.

I personally see a vast difference between philosophy and science and will tell you that my inorganic chemist-physicist husband and other scientists I knew very well did not discuss philosophy in relation to the types of scientific disciplines on which they did laboratory experiments and found proof.

Science was dinner table conversation in my house practically every day for nearly 30 years. So much so that I once accused these men and women of thinking of nothing else.

Mal

tooki
March 17, 2004 - 06:32 am
Robby was moving fast so he skipped a bit of charming irrelevancy. At the top of page 318 Durant says, "One of his love poems begot a famous English counterpart:

I do not love you, Sabidi, the reason I cannot tell;
This only I can say - I dislike you very well."


Here's the "counterpart."

I do not like thee, Dr Fell,
The reason why I cannot tell;
But this I know, I know full well,
I do not like thee, Dr. Fell


Attributed to T. Brown, who wrote "Dialogues of the Dead." Dr. Fell, Dean of Christchurch (1625-1686) expelled Brown, but said he would remit the sentence if he translated the thirty-third Epigram of Martial.

From Brewer's "Dictionary of Phrase and Fable."

Malryn (Mal)
March 17, 2004 - 10:21 am


Donald Chester Freeman III
6 pounds 11 ounces
20 inches long

He's named for his grandfather
and his great grandfather.



He and his mother, who was diagnosed
with non-gestational diabetes during
pregnancy, are fine.

Whew!

Éloïse De Pelteau
March 17, 2004 - 01:01 pm
Congratulations Mal on the birth of your grandson Donald Chester, he is lean and tall.

Eloïse

JoanK
March 17, 2004 - 01:55 pm
MAL WONDERFUL!!!

Shasta Sills
March 17, 2004 - 02:55 pm
Congratulations, Mal, on all those grandchildren. From someone who will never have any.

Tooki, I used to read nursery rhymes to my daughter, and that little rhyme about Dr. Fell was one of her favorites. I never knew it was about a real man. The things I'm learning in my old age!!

And I never knew there was a difference between hypotheses and theories. I'm still trying to figure out how one turns into the other.

Malryn (Mal)
March 17, 2004 - 03:38 pm
See my Post #301, SHASTA.

I have two granddaughters, too. Unfortunately, they're all scattered far and wide, and I see only one fairly often. I figured out this afternoon, to my moderate amazement, that my grandchildren's ages range from only a few hours to 28 years old. Whoever would have thought I'd have a little grandson when I am pushing 76? Life is full of wonder. I'd love to see and hold that little baby boy, born in New York, who will soon go to his and his four year old sister's brand new house in Pennsylvania.

Mal

Justin
March 17, 2004 - 04:31 pm
Shasta; An hypothesis turns into theory after test replication produces the same result, repeatedly, confirming the hypothesis. Tests are designed to control all variables and neutralize the effects of bias.

Justin
March 17, 2004 - 04:34 pm
Mal; I am happy for you. New borns bring great joy to everyone even those who must rise at Two AM for a feeding. I hope they bring the new comer to you soon.

robert b. iadeluca
March 17, 2004 - 08:30 pm
Tooki:-Yes, I was moving fast! Thank you for putting that couplet in.

Robby

3kings
March 18, 2004 - 01:25 am
MAL you are right to call our attention to the Scientific Method. It points up the great difference between Philosophy and Science.

But I wonder at your calling Galileo a philosopher. If that were valid, then one could equally call Aristotle, Plato, and Socrates scientists.

None of the philosophers I have heard of seemed to understand or care anything about science, but I guess there were some who had at least a partial idea of some sections of a vast subject. ++ Trevor

robert b. iadeluca
March 18, 2004 - 04:41 am
Rome at Work

A.D. 14-96

robert b. iadeluca
March 18, 2004 - 04:54 am
"To the Silver Age belongs the classic Roman work on agriculture -- the De Re Rustica (65) of Junius Columella. Like Quintilian, Marial, and the Senecas, ht came from Spain. He farmed several estates in Italy and retired in a residence in Rome.

"The best lands, he found, were taken up by the villas and grounds of the rich. The next best by olive orchards and vineyards. Only inferior soils were left for tillage. 'We have abandoned the husbanding of our soil to our lowest slaves, and they treat it like barbarians.'

"The freemen of Italy, he thought, were degenerating in cities when they should hava been hardening themselves by working the earth. 'We ply our hands in circuses and theaters rather than among crops and vines.' Columella loved the soil, and felt that the physical culture of the earth is saner than the literary culture of the town. Farming 'is a blood relative of wisdom' (consanguinea sapientiae).

"To lure men back to the fields he adorned his subject with polished Latin, and when he came to speak of gardens and flowers he fell into enthusiastic verse."

Familiar comments from our day? "Back to the soil?" "The plight of the farmer?" Any environmentalists here?

Your comments, please?

Robby

tooki
March 18, 2004 - 10:07 am
For other avid gardeners, here are comments from "Smith's Dictionary," 1875, on Roman Gardens.

The Romans labored under the disadvantage of a limited flora. They overcame this by arranging materials to produce striking effects.

The Younger Pliny describes his Tuscan villa: In front of the porticus there was generally a xystus, or flat piece of ground, divided into flower beds of different shapes by borders of a box. There were also flower beds in other parts of the garden, sometimes raised to form terraces, with their sloping sides planted with evergreens or creepers.

The most striking features of Roman gardens were lines of large trees planted in regular order, walks or ambulationes formed by closely clipped hedges, and fountains and summer houses.

The Romans had a great fondness for ars topiaria, tying, twisting, or cutting trees and shrubs, especially the box, into figures of animals, ships, letters, etc. The importance attached to this is proved not only by Pliny's description and other writers (including Martial) but also the fact that "topiarius" is the only name used in good Latin writers for the ornamental gardener. Cicero mentions the topiarius among the higher class of slaves.

Conservatories and hot houses are not mentioned earlier than the first century. They are frequently referred to by Martial, used both to preserve foreign plants and to produce flowers and fruit out of season. Columella and Pliny speak of forcing houses. In every garden there was a space apart for vegetables.

Flowers and plants were kept in the central space of the peristyle (domus), on roofs, and in windows of the house. Sometimes, in a town, where the garden was very small, its walls were painted in imitation of a real garden, and the real garden was ornamented with flowers in vases. A beautiful example of such a garden was found at Pompeii.

Shasta Sills
March 18, 2004 - 03:32 pm
So the Romans invented topiary. I wondered who was responsible for torturing plants like this. But maybe it was done even before the Romans.

robert b. iadeluca
March 18, 2004 - 08:04 pm
"It was in this period that Pliny the naturalist pronounced a premature epitaph -- latifundia perdidere Italiam -- 'the large farms have ruined Italy.' Similar judgments occur in Seneca, Lucan, Petronius, Martial, and Juvenal. Seneca described cattle ranches wider than kingdoms, cultivated by fettered slaves. Some estates were so large, said Columella, that their masters could never ride around them.

"Pliny mentions an estate with 4117 slaves, 7200 oxen, and 257,000 other animals. Land distributions by the Gracchi, Caesar, and Augustus had raised the number of small holdings, but many of these had been abandoned during the wars and bought in by the rich.

"When imperial administration reduced plunder in the provinces, much patrician wealth went into large farms. The latifundia spread because greater profits flowed from producing cattle, oil, and wine than from growing cereals and vegetables, and the discovery that ranching, to be most profitable, required the operation of large areas under one management.

"By the close of the first Christian century these advantages were being offset by the rising cost of slaves and their slow and uninventive work.

"The long transition now began from slavery to serfdom. As peace diminished the flow of war captives into bondage, some owners of large estates, instead of operating them with slaves, divided them into small holdings and leased these to free tenants (coloni, cultivators) who paid in rent and labor. Most of the ager publicus belonging to the government was now worked in this way.

"So were the extensive properties of the younger Pliny, who describes his tenants as healthy, sturdy, good-natured, talkative peasants -- precisely such as one finds throughout Italy today, unchanged after all changes."

Even in my local newspaper this week are large articles complaining of the plight of the small farmer.

Robby

tooki
March 19, 2004 - 07:12 am
The happy assortment of facts below is from "The World In Your Garden," by National Geographic.

Well before the Christian era the Romans grew kale and collards, mild with large leaves and stalks. The Romans apparently carried "the coles" to Britain and France, since they are native to the Mediterranean

The Romans cultivated forms of asparagus that equaled the best wild plants. In Roman times asparagus was not only eaten "in season," but was dried and later prepared simply by boiling. The Emperor Augustus is supposed to have been very fond of it and to have originated a saying, "Quicker than you can cook asparagus."

The list of vegetables, bulbs and flowers domesticated and cultivated by the Romans goes on. The appearance on this list of so many "greens," which we now know to be necessary to human nutrition, may say something about the Roman diet discussed previously and the health and vigor of the Roman legions and Durant's healthy peasants.

robert b. iadeluca
March 19, 2004 - 12:07 pm
Now I know why I loved my Italian grandmother's meals!! Non-Italians often think that Italians live on spaghetti but there was no end to the vegetables in her meals.

Robby

JoanK
March 19, 2004 - 12:08 pm
"Quicker than you can cook asparagus." Quite a saying!!

TOOKI:"The appearance on this list of so many "greens," which we now know to be necessary to human nutrition, may say something about the Roman diet discussed previously and the health and vigor of the Roman legions and Durant's healthy peasants".

Good point. I couldn't help noticing reading Homer that in the endless descriptions of what the Greeks ate at banquets, they never mention vegetables. New theory: vegetable determinism, or you are what you eat. Eat vegetables, and you will be great warriors!! Wow, what breakthrough!!

kiwi lady
March 19, 2004 - 01:52 pm
This is a bit behind the topic but would like to say that Philosophy balances out Science. This is how we attempt to bring ethics into some scientific practices. If the scientists were allowed to do everything they wanted to do I believe ethics would be out the window.

Carolyn

Justin
March 19, 2004 - 02:20 pm
Yes. Just think of stem cell research. What it needs is a good dose of ethics and our man in Washington is just the guy to do it. Of course that means we must fore go any chance to eliminate diabetes, spinal damage and baldness. But so what. Ethics are more important.

Shasta Sills
March 19, 2004 - 03:36 pm
It's almost uncanny to see the Romans turning small farms into large farms, just as we are doing today. The difference is that they used slave labor and we use machines.

robert b. iadeluca
March 19, 2004 - 05:40 pm
Those participants here who are interested in PHILOSOPHY will get a kick out of this article. I would be interested in your reactions.

Robby

Justin
March 19, 2004 - 06:25 pm
I see Marinoff as just another priest trying to tap into the public revenue stream. If ministers and artists can do it, why not philosophers? Whatever sells, sells.

JoanK
March 19, 2004 - 06:38 pm
Small farms: my mother came from a small farming family, and she used to tell me about the problems with small farms when she was a child: 100 years ago. Apparently it is a timeless problem.

Yes, Justin, ethical values differ, but that doesn't do away with ethical problems in science. someone has to decide whether to use the atomic bomb other than the people who make it. I'm not sure it is philosophers who are doing that.

Philosophical counselling: frankly, sounds a bit like a scam. Not that people don't need philosophy, but I think trying to do indepth counseling without training could be dangerous. A class or discussion group would seem more appropriate.

Justin
March 19, 2004 - 08:19 pm
JoanK; Someone must decide about the use of the atomic bomb,yes. But does it have to be politicians like our current crop who make the tough decisions? Let's do it by polling, with results in the two standard error range. Do we bomb Irag? Yes, No, Don't Know. That is the main survey question this month.

kiwi lady
March 19, 2004 - 10:35 pm
What we have to stop Justin is people creating embryos just to take from them and destroy them. Stem cells can be taken from umblical cords without playing God with human life forms.

Justin
March 19, 2004 - 11:09 pm
Kiwi; The intricacies of stem cell acquisition are not in my ken. George, our biologist discussant, should be in here responding to these issues. I know only that the scientific community tells us they have a good chance to get a handle on diabetes etc. through research with stem cells.I also know that our government has severely restricted access to stem cells based on religious notions. In my judgement medical research should be fostered by our government not crippled by it.

robert b. iadeluca
March 20, 2004 - 05:08 am
"There was not in Roman life -- and perhaps there would not be in a healthy economy -- so geographical a division between agriculture and industry as in our modern states. The ancient rural home -- cottage, villa, or estate -- was literally a manufactory, where the hands of men carried on a dozen vital industries, and the skill of women filled the house and its environs with a score of wholesome arts.

"There the woods were turned into shelter, fuel, and furniture, cattle were slain and dressed, grain was milled and baked, oil and wine were pressed, food was prepared and preserved, wool and flax were cleaned and woven, someteimes clay was fired into vessels, bricks, and tiles, and metal was beaten into tools.

"Life there had an educative fullness and variety that come to few of us in our time of wider movement and narrowing specialities. Nor was this diversity of occupation the sign of a poor and primitive economy. The wealthiest households were the most self-sufficient, and prided themselves on making the largest part of what they needed.

"A family was an organization of economic helpmates engaged in the united agriculture and industry of a home.

"When an artisan undertook to do a certain task for several families, and set up his shop at some center within reach of them all, village economy supplemented, but did ot supersede, domestic industry. So the miller took and ground the grain of many fields. Later he baked the bread, and finally he delivered it.

"Forty bakeries were unearthed at Pompeii, and at Rome the pastrymakers were a separate guild. There were likewise contractors who bought an olive crop on the trees and gathered the fruit. More estates, however, continued to process their own oil and bake their own bread. The clothing of peasants and philosophers was homespun, but the well-to-do were garments that, though woven at home, were carded, cleaned, bleached, and cut in a fullery. Some delicate woolen fabrics were woven in factories. Such flax as was not made into sails or nets was turned by factoriess into fine garments for women and handkerchiefs for men.

"In its next stage the cloth might be sent to a dyer, who not only colored it but impressed upon it such delicate designs as we find on the costumes in Pompeian murals. Tanning of leather had also reached the factory stage, but shoemakers were usually individual craftsmen, making shoes to order. Some were specialists who made only fancy slippers for feminine feet."

So much of what is said here calls to my mind the pioneering stages of our nation. Perhaps some participants here might even remember lives run in this fashion.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
March 20, 2004 - 07:28 am
Back from the agonies of a mammoth toothache, which is demanding immediate and expensive attention. I'm afraid my remaining teeth have decided to give up the ghost. Wish I had dental insurance.

As late as the 17th century in this country people were living as Durant tells us the Romans did. There are examples of that at Sturbridge Village in Massachusetts and Mystic, Connecticut today.

I had a Slovak friend who grew up as a peasant in Czechslovakia. As a child he was out tending sheep, working in the garden to raise food, helping shear the sheep, carding and spinning wool which was woven into the fabric used to make clothes, sawing wood for the fire used for heating and cooking, helping his father make shoes for the family. The logs used to build his family's small house had been cut in the woods on the land they rented. That was in the 20th century, folks.

My paternal grandfather had a farm in Maine where he raised potatoes. His house was heated by wood sawed from trees he and his sons, including my father, cut down. There was no electricity or indoor plumbing. My grandmother cooked and baked the family's bread on a wood stove. It was my grandmother's job to feed the chickens which provided eggs and meat, slop the pigs, another food source, work in the vegetable garden, can the fruit of the harvest, milk the cow and churn the butter. She also made her own clothes and those for her 9 children.



Not to prolong the discussion about science and scientists, I had a telephone conversation last night with one of the scientists I know, whose business is in the medical field. My friend told me that my perception of science, as I posted here, is accurate.

We agreed that neither one of us has ever known an unethical scientist and noted the fact that there are laws and restrictions on what scientists can explore and do. Sometimes people lose sight of the fact that scientists are human beings with wives and husbands, children and grandchildren. They care about the issues raised here.

We also commented on the fact that if there is an unknown, scientists will do all they can to discover and prove what it is wherever in the world they live. Curiosity seems to be a fact of nature, and a yearning to know the truth has persisted among people for thousands of years.

I wish everyone had the opportunity to talk with scientists and go into laboratories and watch them work, as I have done. Perhaps then there would be fewer apprehensions about what they are, and there would come a better understanding of what they do.

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
March 20, 2004 - 07:41 am
Bakery at Pompeii

tooki
March 20, 2004 - 07:45 am
Applied philosophy, has been around a while and is a welcome relief in a profession grown increasingly arcane and specialized in the last hundred years. For some time now, philosophers have been being used at Universities to sit on committees to help determine the boundaries of scientific research (stem cell research?), in hospitals to assist in the determinations of life and death, and in other situations, such as those discussed in the article.

If I had problems making decisions, and I needed to make a decision about a job choice, a psychotherapist might help me search my unconscious for the reasons for this inability. The philosopher might help me conduct a conceptual examination of the issues surrounding this decision. (This example aided by philosophical considerations.)

Ludwig Wittgenstein, a famous 20th century philosopher, said, according to an online source, "What is the use of studying philosophy if all it does for you is to enable you to talk with some plausibility about some abstruse questions in logic, etc., and if it does not improve your thinking about the important questions of everyday life."

Since some folks need all the help they can get, I think the movement is sound; practitioners such as Marinoff, however, you'll excuse the expression, suck.

Ludwig is the same guy who supposedly threatened another famous philosopher, Karl Popper, a logical positivist who opposed Ludwig's views on the usefulness of "ordinary language," with a fireplace poker. This incident is so famous in the groves of academe that a book has been written about it, "Wittgenstein's Poker."

This is an unduly long post, for which I apologize. However, I must add that if I were to go to a Philosopher, I would avoid going to an Existentialist. Existentialists specialize in the nature of choice. Thus, the patient might well be counseled to make any choice; you can always rechoose.

robert b. iadeluca
March 20, 2004 - 12:19 pm
"From Caesar to Commodus wheeled vehicles were forbidden in Rome by day. People then walked, or were carried in slave-borne chairs or litters. For longer distances they traveled on horseback or in horse-drawn carriages or chariots.

"Travel by public stagecoach averaged some sixty miles a day. Caesar once rode by carriage 800 miles in eight days. Messengers bearing the news of Nero's death to Galba in Spain covered 332 miles in 36 hours. Tiberius, hurrying day and night, rode in three days 600 miles to stand beside his dying brother. The public post, by carrige or horse at all hours, averaged one hundred miles a day.

"Augustus had modeled it on the Persian system, as indispensable to imperial administration. It was called cursus publicus as serving the rex publica, or commonwealth, by carrying official correspondence. Private individuals could use it only by rare and special permission through a government diploma ('double-folded') or passport entitling the bearer to certain privilegs and introducing him en route to persons of diplomatic importance.

"A more rapid means of communication was sometimes arranged by semaphores flashing signals from point to point. By this primitive telegraph the arrival of the grain ships at Puteoli was quickly made known to worried Rome.

"Nonofficial correspondence went by special courier or merchants or traveling friends. Some traces suggest the existence, under the Empire, of private companies arranging to transmit private mail. Fewer letters were written than now, and better. Nevertheless, the movement of intelligence over western and southern Europe was as rapid in Caesar's day as at any time before the railway.

"In 54 B.C. Caesar's letter from Britain reached Cicero at Rome in twenty-nine days. In 1834 Sir Robert Peel, hurrying from Rome to London, required thirty days."

I find this aspect of the Empire fascinating! It is undoubtedly one aspect of growth that helped the Empire to spread so widely so fast.

Robby

JoanK
March 20, 2004 - 01:06 pm
MAL: wonderful picture.

I, too, have spent much of my life among scientists, and I agree with you about them. My comment that someone else needs to make the moral decisions was not a criticism of scientists but a comment on human nature. People who work with something everyday are often too close to it to see clearly.

I had a truly scary experience in the fifties. It was the height of the cold war, and I was working at a super secret research facility doing defense work. We were'nt allowed to talk about our work outside, even to our families: we could only talk to each other. We were being watched constantly, looking for SPIES!! We were all convinced that the Russians were going to drop an atomic bomb on us any day, I had nightmares about it.

There was a project going on that was even secret. They couldn't even talk to the rest of us. One of the participants went insane from the pressure, and was put in a special isolated room in the insane asylum so he couldn't talk to anyone. We weren't supposed to know what they ere doing, but of course we found out. After a thorough study, they concluded that in an Atomic war, the country that startedit would win. Therefore, they recommended that we should bomb Russia first, before they bombed us.

Many years later, that report was obtained through the freedom of information act, and made public. I knew the people who worked on it: they were good moral people as Mal said. But they were in a pressure-cooker situation, with no chance of communication with people outside of that situation, and lost their sense of proportion. This is the kind of thing I was thinking of when I talked about someone outside making the moral decisions.

Malryn (Mal)
March 20, 2004 - 03:56 pm
ROBBY, that sounds like the pony express a la Roma. When I read what Durant said, I was reminded of the old Boston Post Road, which has been in existence since Colonial days.

JOAN, it takes enormous amounts of money to do most scientific research. I've never heard of a single scientist, or even a group in a laboratory, that had funds of his or her own to do this alone or without financial help.

The scientists I know and have known are either at universities or in industry. At universities a great number of experiments are funded by outside sources, either by industrial companies or the United States government. Industry can afford to fund its own.

All patents in industry are owned by corporations or the company for which the scientist works, even though the patent also has his or her name on it. Universities work the same way. The patent is owned by the funder, including the U.S. government.

In other words, the scientist simply does not have the means to make important decisions about how his findings will be used. All the patent means to the scientist is that it looks good on his or her reusmé, and it might bring him or her a promotion. My former husband has over 100 patents with his name on them. They brought him recognition, but very little else.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
March 21, 2004 - 04:57 am
"There was probably more traveling in Nero's day than at any time before our birth. Says Seneca:-'Many people make long voyages to see some remote sight' and Plutarch speaks of 'globe-trotters who spend the best part of their lives in inns and on boats.'

"Educated Romans flocked to Greece and Egypt and Greek Asia, scratched their names on historic monuments, sought healing waters or climates, ambled by art collections in the temples, studied under famous philosophers, rhetors, or physicians, and doubtless used Pausanias as their Baedeker.

"These 'grand tours' usually involved a voyage on one or more of the merchant vessels that cut the Mediterranean with a hundred routes of trade. Rome's rival ports, Puteoli, Portus, and Ostia, were alive with fabri navales building ships, stuppatores caulking them, saburarii loading sand into them as ballast, sacrarii unloading grain in sacks, mensores weighing it, lenuncularii operating tenders between large ships and the shore, and urinatores diving for goods fallen into the sea.

"Of corn barges alone twenty-five were drawn up the Tiber every working day. If we add the transport of building stone, metals, oil, wine, and a thousand other articles, we picture a river teeming with commerce and noisy with loading and carrying machines, with dockmen, porters, stevedores, traders, brokers, and clerks."

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
March 21, 2004 - 10:43 am
The print on this article on the web is so small that I'm posting it here. Source: Ancient Rome Transport
"Expansion of the Roman Empire was both facilitated by an impetus to the development of an efficient system of roads. They were usually built by a consul or other important magistrate, starting in the early Republic.

"The roads were important militarily, as they bound together the steadily growing Roman Empire. A good road would shed water during the rainy season and permit travel at a rapid pace during all kinds of weather.

"They were surfaced with stone paving blocks, had a drainage ditch on each side and were crowned to shed water. The major Roman roads were built upon a foundation of carefully laid rock which was constructed from a large ditch dug into the underlying earth. In this way, if the ground became waterlogged, a tight foundation layer helped prevent anyone traveling on the road from sinking out of sight in the mud.

"City streets were paved with large fitted stones lain upon a foundation of rock also.

"Roman civil engineering made it possible for the Romans to travel almost as efficiently by road as by ship, although the Romans usually preferred to travel by sea to towns on the coast, if they were given a choice. Roads were often frequented by bandits and one who traveled without a good company of slaves and armed retainers risked losing his or her life.

"The few inns at which a traveler could find lodging for the night were of dubious quality at best and were downright risky at times. Most innkeepers were crooks, the food was bad, and the inns were frequented by cutthroats and drunks. All kinds of lice and other insects infested the bedding, and the traveler might not even find a bed at all because they were all taken by other guests by the time he arrived at the inn.

"Occasions for road travel included army officers on business, government magistrates traveling between Rome and their posts, students journeying to Athens to complete their education at the universities there, and imperial postal couriers carrying messages and letters. Travel for enjoyment and long journeys by foot were almost unheard of in Roman society.

"The rich often traveled lying down in a litter carried on the shoulders of slaves or seated in a sedan chair, also carried by slaves. Military officers traveled on horseback and the Roman army had stations at which a courier or officer could exchange a tired mount for a fresh one. Intimate knowledge of this system of relay stations enabled the emperor Constantine as a young man to escape the court of Galerius to rejoin his father in Britain.

"The streets in Rome and other large were crowded and narrow. Freight was delivered by wagons at night, as wagons were banned from the city by day because of the congestion. Travel within the cities was often done on foot by rich and poor alike. The proper way for a wealthy woman of Senatorial rank to travel was by carpentum, a large four wheel covered coach. Additionally, she could travel by litter, just like the men."

robert b. iadeluca
March 21, 2004 - 10:48 am
Mal:-It sounds like the Middle Ages, doesn't it?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
March 21, 2004 - 11:01 am
Sure does, ROBBY.
Below is a link to the enlargement I made of picture I found on the web.

Ancient Roman Road

robert b. iadeluca
March 21, 2004 - 11:46 am
"Pliny thought that the aqueducts were Rome's greatest achievement. 'If one will note the abundance of water skillfully brought into the city for many public and private uses -- if he will observe the lofty aqueducts required to maintain a proper elevation and grade -- the mountains that had to be pierced, the depressions that had to be filled -- he will conclude that the whole globe offers nothing more marvelous.

"From distant springs fourteen aqueducts, totaling 1,300 miles, brought through tunnels and over majestic arches into Rome some 300,000,000 gallons of water daily -- as large a quantity per capita as in any modern city. These structures had their faults. Leaks developed in the lead pipes and required frequent repair. By the end of the Western Empire all the aqueducts had gone out of use.

"But when we consider that they fed ample water to homes, tenements, palaces, foundtains, gardens, parks, and public baths where thousands bathed at once, and that enough remained to create artificial lakes for naval battles, we begin to see that depite terror and corruption, Rome was the best managed capital of antiquity and one of the best equipped cities of all time.

"At the head of the water department at the close of the first century was Sextus Julius Frontinus, whose books have made him the most famous of Roman engineers. He had already served as praetor, as governor of Britain, and several terms as consul.

"Like modern British statesmen, he found time to write books as well as to govern states. He published a work on military science, of which the concluding portion, Stratagemata, remains, and left us his personal account of the water system of Rome (De aquis urbis Romae).

"He describes the corruption and malfeasance that he found in his department on taking office, and how palaces and brothels secretly tapped the water mains, and so greedily that once Rome ran out of water. He dsscribes his resolute reforms. Tells in proud detail the sources, length, and function of each aqueduct. And concludes like Pliny 'Who will venture to compare with these mighty conduits the idle Pyramids, or the famous but useless works of the Greeks?

"We sense here the frankly utilitarian Roman with little taste for beauty apart from use. We can understand him and admit that a city should have clean water before it has Parthenons.

"Through these artless books we perceive that even in the age of the despots there were Romans of the old type -- men of ability and integrity, conscientious administrators who made the Empire prosper under the lords of misrule and opened a way for monarchy's golden age."

AWESOME when you think of it! We may concentrate on the various Emperors but here are the people who made Rome the great civilization it was.

I met my wife in France during the war. Proud Americans used to shepherd her around showing her the great history of America -- here was a house that had been built in 1700 -- here was the area of the battle held in 1780. She was very polite but she called to their attention the fact that behind her house in Rennes, France, was the remains of an aqueduct that had been there for almost 2,000 years.

Robby

JoanK
March 21, 2004 - 01:23 pm
"A good road would shed water during the rainy season and permit travel at a rapid pace during all kinds of weather".

I wish some of our road designers would read that. Some of the new roads around here are a disaster during even a mild rainstorm. Interesting in your picture MAL that they had sidewalks.

I love these sections. The society really comes to life. Let the emporors kill each other off. Here is Rome.

robert b. iadeluca
March 21, 2004 - 01:35 pm
Here is the NEGATIVE SIDE of the wonderful Ancient Roman water system.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
March 21, 2004 - 02:13 pm
Wow, that's interesting, ROBBY, isn't it?

Mal

tooki
March 21, 2004 - 09:00 pm
Out here in Oregon, the Columbia Gorge Superhighway, 8 laner travels along close to the edge of the river. The banks of the Columbia have been leveled and filled so this is possible, and it's straight as an arrow.

High on the mountains that begin on the edge of the superhighway, heading east, are the remnants of the first Columbia Gorge highway, a narrow two laner completed shortly after the First World War. It is a beautiful road, looking as though it was built on Roman principles: embankments, wonderful arched overpasses, fabulous tunnels, and stone surfaces. It is still open and drivable in spots because the view of the winding Columbia from high on the mountains is unsurpassed.

The old highway was built utilizing old Indians trails that transversed the mountains as Indians made their way to trade at the month of the Columbia. These old Indian trails were also ancient animal trails. Such trails were the most efficient way through the mountains; early settlers, hunters and trappers also used them.

Any highways like this in the East? That is, build on old trails? Perhaps the European superhighways are also build next to the Roman roads.

Justin
March 21, 2004 - 11:37 pm
The old road from Lexington to Concord still exists but is used today by walking tourists who wish to see where the British marched while the Colonials shot at them from behind trees. The British had gone to Concord to capture an arsenal of ammunition which the Colonials intended to use.

robert b. iadeluca
March 22, 2004 - 04:46 am
"The improvement of government and transport expanded Mediterranean trade to an unprecedented amplitude. For two centuries Italy enjoyed an 'unfavorable' balance of trade -- cheerfully bought more than she sold. The wholesalers had agents buying goods for Italy in all parts of the Empire, and foreign merchants had Greek or Syrian drummers touting and placing their goods in Italy.

"From Sicily came corn, cattle, hides, wine, wool, fine woodwork, statuary, jewelry.

"From north Africa corn and oil.

"From Cyrenaica silphium.

"From central Africa wild beasts for the arena.

"From Ethiopia and east Africa ivory, apes, tortoise shell, rare marbles, obsidian, spices, and Negro slaves.

"From west Africa oil, beasts, citron, wood, pearls, dyes, copper.

"From Spain fish, cattle, wool, gold, silver, lead, tin, copper, iron, cinnabar, wheat, linen, cork, horses, ham, bacon, and the finest olives and olive oil.

"From Gaul clothing, wine, wheat, timber, vegetables, cattle, poultry, pottery, cheese.

"From Britain tin, lead, silver, hides, wheat cattle, slaves, oysters, dogs, pearls, and wooden goods.

"From Belgium flocks of geese were driven all the way to Italy to supply goose livers for aristocratic bellies.

"From Germany came amber, slaves, and furs.

"From the Danube wheat, cattle, iron, silver, and gold.

"From Greece and the Greek isles cheap silk, linen, wine, oil, honey, timber, marble, emeralds, drugs, artworks, perfumes, diamonds, and gold.

"From the Black Sea came corn, fish, furs, hides, slaves.

"From Asia Minor fine linen and woolen fabrics, parchment, wine, Smyrna and other figs, honey, cheese, oysters, carpets, oil, wood.

"From Syria wine, silk, linen, glass, oil, apples, pears, plums, figs, dates, pomegranates, nuts, nard, balsam, Tyrian purple, and the cedar of Lebanon.

"From Palmyra textiles, perfumes, drugs.

"From Arabia incense, gums, aloes, myrrh, laudanum, ginger, cinnamon, and precious stones.

"From Egypt corn, paper, linen, glass, jewelry, granite, basalt, alabaster, and porphyry.

Finished products came to Rome and the West from Alexandria, Sidon, Tyre, Antioch, Tarsus, Rhodes, Miletus, and Ephesus while the East received raw materials and money from the West.

"This immense trade produced prosperity for two centuries, but its unsound basis ruined Roman economy in the end. Italy made no attempt at equaling imports with exports.

"The provinces recovered not only prosperity but economic initiative. Italian merchants, in this first century A.D., almost disappeared from Eastern ports, while Syrian and Greek traders established themselves at Delos and Puteoli and multiplied in Spain and Gaul.

"In the leisurely oscillation of history the East was preparing once more to dominate the West."

Even at the height of its glory the Roman Empire, unknown to itself, was dying? Globalization? History oscillates?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 22, 2004 - 06:54 am
As we are discussing the amazing amount of trade by the Romans, I am again posting a MAP of this far-flung Empire.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
March 22, 2004 - 08:16 pm
Ostia Antigua, the Port of Rome. Interesting photos of synagogue there

tooki
March 22, 2004 - 09:46 pm
Speaking of maps, here is another map of the Roman Empire in 117 AD, slightly different from Robby's. For comparison, a map of the British Empire in 1898 is also shown. On both maps the military bases are marked with red dots.

The maps are at the bottom of the site. Scroll down until you hit them.

You can also see a map of the places where American service men are currently on active duty by clicking on a small map on the right hand side of the text.

This Is The Site

tooki
March 22, 2004 - 09:55 pm
I'm not exactly sure here, but isn't an increasing amount of America's food now coming from abroad? As noted previously in this discussion, doesn't this tie in somehow with the demise of small farms in America? The small farms are dying out as the agricultural monopolies expand.

robert b. iadeluca
March 23, 2004 - 04:17 am
Excellent maps, Tooki. Thank you.

"Bankers were everywhere. They served as money-changers -- accepted checking accounts and interest-bearing deposits -- issued travelers' checks and bills of exchange -- managed, bought, and sold realty -- placed investments and collected debts -- and lent money to individuals and partnerships.

"This banking system had come from Greece and the Greek East, and was mostly in the hands of Greeks and Syrians even in Italy and the West. In Gaul the words for Syrian and banker were synonyms. Interest rates, which had sunk to four per cent under the weight of Augustus Ethyptian spoils, rose to six per cent after his death, and reached their legal maximum of twelve per cent by the age of Constantine.

"The famous 'panic' of A.D. 33 illustrates the development and complex interdependence of banks and commerce in the Empire. Aaugustus had coined and spent money lavishly, on the theory that its increased circulation, low interest rates, and rising prices would stimulate business. They did. But as the process could not go on forever, a reaction set in as early as 10 B.C. when this flush minting ceased.

"Tiberius rebounded to the oppposite theory -- that the most economical economy is the best. He severely limited the governmental expenditures, sharply restricted new issues of currency, and hoarded 2,700,000,000 sesterces in the Treasury.

The resulting dearth of circulating medium was made worse by the drain of money eastward in exchange for luxuries. Prices fell, interest rates rose, creditors foreclosed on debtors, debtors sued usurers, and moneylending almost ceased.

"The failure of an Alexandrian firm, Senthes and Son -- due to their loss of three ships laden with costly spices -- and the collapse of the great dyeing concern of Malchus at Tyre, led to rumors that the Roman banking house of Maximus and Vibo would be broken by their extensive loans to these firms.

"When its depositors began a 'run' on this bank it shut its doors, and later on that day a larger bank, of the Brothers Pettius, also suspended payment. Almost simultaneously came news that great banking establishments had failed in Lyons, Carthage, Corinth, and Byzantium.

"One after another the banks of Rome closed. Money could be borrowed only at rates far above the legal limit. Tiberius finally met the crisis by suspending the land-investment act and distributing 100,000,000 sesterces to the banks, to be lent without interest for three years on the security of reality.

"Private lenders were thereby constrained to lower their interest rates, money came out of hiding, and confidence slowly returned."

I wonder if Franklin D. Roosevelt had read about this -- or, for that matter if the present administration or any previous ones were students of history.

Robby

Scrawler
March 23, 2004 - 11:43 am
Even at the height of its glory the Roman Empire, unknown to itself, was dying?

I can not help wonder that as we read about the death of the Roman Empire that we too are not another "empire" that is dying, unknown to itself. I was amazed when I read my "National Wildlife" magazine that: "...at the present rates of extinction - as much as 20 percent of the world's species (of animals) could vanish in the next 30 years." Since our own species depend on these very animals for our existence are we too dying?

As I read more about the Roman Empire's business and industry it seems that despite the "oscillation of history" that in reality we have changed very little in our out look on the world around us. Even as we admire the ruins of Rome our own cities are crumbling around us. As I travel down our two-lane roads here in Portland, Oregon every time I hit a pot-hole I can't help but think of the roads that the Romans built - of course they didn't have the number autos traveling the roads that we do which probably has a lot to do with the condition of our roads.

Are we beginning to depend on foreign goods? Trying to "buy American" is getting harder every day especially when you are trying to live on a pension and budget. Doesn't it seem to you that money doesn't buy as much as it did just a few months ago. The money crunchers seem to be predicting a "crash" to come sometime this summer. At this rate I may have to borrow just to pay my taxes.

"In the leisurely oscillation of history the East was preparing once more to dominate the West."

I can't help but wonder as we swing back and forth through the leisurely oscillation of history that once again the East is preparing to dominate the West or has it already started and we like the Romans at the height of its glory are unaware of it.

robert b. iadeluca
March 23, 2004 - 01:48 pm
Food for thought, Scrawler!!

JoanK
March 23, 2004 - 01:49 pm
In the Mark Twain site we are discussing satire. Apparantly modrn satire is typed with reference to Greek and Roman authors as below (from Barbara).

Formal satire is further divided into: the "Horatian," which ridicules gently, and the "Juvenalian," the angry satirist who derides subjects harshly and bitterly.

The correspondance between Roman and our money systems is scary. I am not an economist, but have long been worried about the extent that our economy is supported by credit buying. It seems to me like a gigantic pyramid scheme.

What ever happened to our legal limits on the amount of interest that can be charged?

robert b. iadeluca
March 23, 2004 - 02:16 pm
"Nearly everybody in Rome worshiped money with mad pursuit, and all but the bankers denounced it. Says a god in Ovid:-'How little you know the age you live in if you fancy that honey is sweeter than cash in hand.' A century later Juvenal sarcastically hails the sanctissima divitiarum maiestas - 'the most holy majesty of wealth.'

"To the end of the Empire, Roman law forbade the Senatorial class to invest in commerce or industry. And though they evaded the prohibition by letting their freedmen invest for them, they despised their proxies and upheld rule by birth as the sole alternative to rule by money, or myths, or the sword.

After all the revolutions and the decimations, the old class divisions remained, with brand-new titles. Members of the Senatorial and equestrian orders, magistrates and officials, were called honestiore, i.e. 'men or honors' or offices. All the rest were humiliores, 'lowly,' or tenuiores, 'weak.'

Rome - the first capitalist nation? With economic classes? Not classless like our society??!!!

Robby

JoanK
March 23, 2004 - 02:21 pm
"Not classless like our society??!!! Yeah, right!!

Our society has classes, but we pretend that we don't. And it is easier to move up in the class structure than in many societies.

Sociologists refer to what we have as "strata" rather than classes. There are many layers in our society, an people associate with those who have a similar "life style" to them. This is most obvious in small towns, where where you "belong" is more fixed and obvious. these life style differences are very important to people, and they will do a lot to "keep up with the Jones's (and away from the Smiths).

In addition to these "strata" are more fundemental differences between upper, middle and lower classes: the owners, the workers, and those on the fringes of the economy.

How is that for overly simplistic: but volumes have been written on this.

Justin
March 23, 2004 - 05:09 pm
JoanK: The price for money has been free to fluctuate since the Second WW. Marriner Eccles set the rate at 4 1/2 percent during the war and continued the fix at that level until 1948 when the rate was set free. The 4 1/2 rate was often described as Eccles' Engine of inflation. There was great pressure on rates as businesses sought to expand to meet postwar demand. Everything from cars to washing machines and tract houses had been put on hold till wars end. At the 41/2 rate inflation soared. Prices rose till Truman and then Ike put a brake on prices while Mc Chesny Martin set the rate free again.

tooki
March 23, 2004 - 09:21 pm
What an interesting way to phrase it, Justin. I hadn't a clew as to who or what Marriner Eccles might be. For those who also think that Marriner Eccles might be an exclusive drink, I offer THIS SMALL BUT SELF IMPORTANT BIOGRAPHY

robert b. iadeluca
March 24, 2004 - 11:25 am
"The plebs was now a motley receptacle of such innominate businessmen, freeborn workers, peasant proprietors, teachers, doctors, artists, and freedmen. The census defined the proletarii not by their occupation but by their offspring (proles). An old Latin treatise called them 'plebeians who offer nothing to the state but children.'

"Most of them found employment in the shops, factories, and commerce of the city at an average wage of a denarius (forty cents) a day. This rose in later centuries, but not faster than prices.

"Exploitation of the weak by the strong is as natural as eating and differs from it only in rapidity. We must expect to find it in every age and under every form of society and government. But rarely has it been so thorough and unsentimental as in ancient Rome. Once all men had been poor, and had not known their poverty. Now penury rubbed elbows with wealth, and suffered from consciousness.

"Absolute destitution, however, was prevented by the dole, the occasional gifts of patrons to clients, and the lordly legacies of rich men like Balbus, who left twenty-five denarii to every citizen of Rome. Class divisions verged upon caste. Yet an able man might free himself from slavery, make a fortune, and rise to high office in the service of the prince.

"The freedman's son became a fully enfranchised freeman, and his grandson could become a senator. Soon a freedman's grandson, Pertinax, would be emperor."

In case I never said it before -- "The more things change, the more they remain the same."

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
March 24, 2004 - 12:16 pm
I am afraid that by knowing too much about past history we can lose our zest for life and become cynical philosophers as Durant keeps reminding us that we are surely following the same pattern toward self destruction as previous civilizations.

35 years ago someone told me, as I was reading the newspaper: Don't read newspapers, because the bad news you read about today is nothing compared with the bad news you will read in 35 years. She was right.

"Now penury rubbed elbows with wealth, and suffered from consciousness." Especially with television spreading wealth and destitution to every corner of the world, even in caves in Afghanistan.

Eloïse

Malryn (Mal)
March 24, 2004 - 01:45 pm
People have seen the seeds of ruination being planted for a very, very long time. My question is, if they knew about these things, why didn't they do anything to stop their being sown?

This morning I read a review of a biography of Woody Guthrie. The author of it said today's music is getting old. Hip Hop is 20 years old, for example. He suggested that we have music like Woody Guthrie's, containing his realistic view, and quoted a verse from Guthrie's "This Land is My Land". That song was written in protest to Irving Berlin's "God Bless America", though only a few people know that because the "offensive, unpatriotic" verses have been removed.

"One bright sunny morning in the shadow of the steeple
By the Relief Office I saw my people—
As they stood hungry, I stood there wondering if
God Blessed America for me."
Mal

Scrawler
March 24, 2004 - 02:01 pm
"Exploitation of the weak by the strong is as natural as eating and differs from it only in rapidity. We must expect to find it in every age and under every form of society and government."

What an interesting thought. What does it mean however? That we will always have class divisions? In other words it won't really matter which society or government we live under it is always going to be human nature to have different classes.

"Once all men had been poor, and had not known their poverty. Now penury rubbed elbows with wealth, and suffered from consciousness."

Does this mean that in the beginning we were all alike? What happened to make us different from each other? If none knew that they were poor, would that make a difference in their lives. Could this be the core to the problem that we suffer from being "more" aware rather than being less aware of our situation. When everything is said in done are we really not all the same?

Malryn (Mal)
March 24, 2004 - 02:09 pm
We are not all the same, SCRAWLER, or ever were. Nature is a Survival of the Fittest world where the strong eat the weak. Even with their ability to think and speak, human beings follow this rule.

Mal

Shasta Sills
March 24, 2004 - 02:22 pm
Hip Hop is twenty years old? And I just found out about it! Well, it's my fault. I refuse to listen to the young people's music, so I never know what's going on.

I think that exploitation of the weak by the strong has nothing to do with classes, or governments. It's just a characteristic of human nature. It comes with the species, one of our built-in faults that we have to struggle to overcome.

Malryn (Mal)
March 24, 2004 - 02:31 pm
Not knowing what's going on in the time in which we live is a major reason why the seeds I mentioned in an earlier post continue to be planted and thrive.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
March 24, 2004 - 06:42 pm
"We are in danger of exaggerating the cruelty of the past for the same reason that we magnify the crime and immorality of the present -- because cruelty is interesting by its very rarity. By and large the lot of a domestic slave under the Empire was lightened by a growing acceptance into the family, by mutual loyalty, by the pretty custom of owners waiting on the slaves at certain feasts, and by a security and permanence of employment exceptional in modern times.

"The condition of the workers, and even of the slaves, was in some measure relieved by the collegia, or workers' organizations. By this period we hear of these in great number and in proud specialization. There were separate guilds of trumpeters, horn players, clarion blowers, tuba players, flutists, bagpipers, etc.

"In the last century of the Republic demagogues of all orders discovered that many collegia could be persuaded to vote almost to a man for any giving candidate. In this way the associations became political instruments of patricians, plutocrats, and radicals. Their competitive corruption helped to destroy Roman democracy. Caesar outlawed them, but they revived. Augustus dissolved all but a few useful ones. Trajan again forbade them. Aurelius tolerated them. Obviously they persisted throughout, within or beyond the law.

"In the end they became vehicles through which Christianity entered and pervaded the life of Rome."

Christianity entered Rome through the workers' organizations. Very interesting!

Robby

hegeso
March 24, 2004 - 07:28 pm
Hip Hop is old? Sorry for spamming, but yesterday I was listening to Vivaldi, and tomorrow I will follow with Bach. Some music never gets old.

Justin
March 25, 2004 - 12:58 am
Durant says, Collegia should be viewed as fraternal organizations rather then workers guilds. That's fine but the next sentence is baffling. In the end they became vehicles through which Christianity entered and pervaded the life of Rome. He is not referring to the coterie around Jesus for that was a Jewish cult in Jerusalem. Paul talks about groups in Rome and in Antioch and in Macedonia etc. Perhaps this is the reference. Are there any among us with a clue to what Durant has in mind?

Justin
March 25, 2004 - 01:14 am
Hegeso: You are absolutely right but some music lasts no longer than a generation. However, that short lived music often evolves into other short lived music. Swing, for example, will probably last till we old swingers are gone and then it will phase out. However, the ideas of syncopation and instrumental arrangements in ensemble are still with us. We find much of it in the popularity of small musical groups in which instrumental arrangements are combined with voice or voices to produce a new focused effect. African rhythms and dissonance add new dimensions to popular music.

Malryn (Mal)
March 25, 2004 - 01:38 am
For the life of me, I can't see why people picked up on my statement about Hip Hop when it was made as an aside. The whole point of that post was that the author of the piece I read was suggesting that music today should be used as a kind of protest just as Woody Guthrie's was.

JUSTIN, I have to disagree with you. Swing lasted as popular music only ten years.

Music today is not "arranged" in the way Swing was. Parts for Swing musicians were written down in manuscript form by an arranger in much the same way parts for a symphony are scored.

Today's music is largely improvisation. (I've posted about this before.) African rhythms have been around in this country ever since there were slaves.

What people who do not listen to or know call Rock and Roll is broken down into 50's Rock, Beatles Rock, Heavy Metal, Funk, Punk and Fusion, Hip Hop, Rap, to mention only a few. Contemporary jazz is a gourmet treat enjoyed only by a very few.

Swing is dead as far as popular music is concerned. Other types I've mentioned have been, and are, losing favor.

For any popular music to live, it has to be pretty darned good. Hegeso doesn't mention that Vivaldi's music and that of Bach were the popular music of their time, just as Verdi's and Wagner's were. We have no way of knowing which music of which composer from the 40's up to now will become classics. Now, do we?

Enough. There's no time in this discussion of Rome for an old classical and jazz musician like me to write a Coda.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
March 25, 2004 - 04:29 am
Rome and Its Art

30 B.C. - A.D. 96

robert b. iadeluca
March 25, 2004 - 04:41 am
"The Romans wee not of themselvs an artistic people. Before Augustus they were warriors. After him they were rulers. They counted the establishment of order and security through government a greater good and nobler task than the creation or enjoyment of beauty. They paid great sums for the works of dead masters, but looked down upon living artists as menials.

"Only law and politics and, of manual arts, only agriculture (by proxy), seemed honorable ways of life. Barring the architects, most artists in Rome were Greek slaves or freedmen or hirelings. Nearly all worked with their hands and were classed as artisans.

"Latin authors seldom thought of recording their lives or their names. Hence Roman art is almost wholly anonymous. No vivid personalities humanize its history as Myron, Pheidias, Praxiteles, and Protogenes light up the aesthetic story of Greece.

"Here the historian is constrained to speak of things, not men, to catalogue coins, vases, statues, reliefs, pictures, and buildings in the desperate hope that their accumulation may laboriously convey the crowded majesty of Rome. The products of art appeal to the soul through eye or ear or hand rather than through the intellect. Their beauty fades when it is diluted into ideas and words.

"The universe of thought is only one of many worlds. Each sense has its own. Each art has therefore its characteristic medium, which cannot be translated into speech.

"Even an artist writes about art in vain."

I was wondering -- here in the Western democracies, do we have any vivid personalities lighting up our aesthetic story? Will we be remembered for our artists rather than for our warriors?

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
March 25, 2004 - 04:56 am
Hegeso, good to see you. I didn't even know about Hip Hop, that goes to show you how much I listen to modern music. When my kids were teens, they listened to what was in vogue at the time. Now I never hear rock, or whatever you call it, when I go there but their kids are going through the same thing as far as music is concerned and I know it will pass. I think that the music that endures through centuries as Vivaldi and Bach you mentioned, have proved their worth through the test of time and will last because the melody speaks to you. It is a message and like good literature, people don't get tired of it.

Eloïse

Malryn (Mal)
March 25, 2004 - 07:20 am
ROBBY, you'll forgive me, I hope, if I say something about contemporary music and art. The gap between generations I see now is something I believe has existed for thousands of years. In my opinion, it needs narrowing. Rigid attitudes do not leave any room for what is new and different.

I'm astonished and somewhat appalled when you people say here and others say elsewhere -- that you and they do not listen to today's music or look at today's art.

I read in this discussion and others much criticism about today's youth and bemoaning of the fact that they are not the way we were and do what we did in "the good old days." How can you tell how they are different from us and how they are like us if you don't look at them and pay attention to what they say and do?

How can elders like us expect respect from youths if we deliberately cocoon ourselves in the rut of "our day", and do not listen to their music and what they tell us in it?

These are the leaders of tomorrow. If we do not pay attention to who and what they are, find out about their likes and dislikes, what bothers them about the society in which they live, try to learn something of their language, how can we possibly have any credibility when we try to share with them what we've learned in 60, 70, 80 years?

Our deliberate inattention is an overt sign of disrespect. Did you ever think of that?

I've heard music by Pink Floyd (and that group has been around awhile) that is as melodic as any Song Without Words that any composer ever wrote.

Have you listened to what the Beatles were telling us in those lovely songs they wrote?

Do you also deliberately push aside composers like Philip Glass, Ned Rorem, Satie, Shostakovich and Stravinsky?

When you're in an art museum, do you steer clear of modern art like works by Kandinsky, Joan Mitchell, Helen Nevelson, Jackson Pollock? Do you stay away from a gallery that contains nothing but cardboard boxes without trying to understand what the artist is trying to convey? Do you close your eyes and say, "This will pass"?

If your answer is yes, I'd never listen to those groups or the music of those composers, and no, I wouldn't waste my time looking at contemporary art, then I say you're pushing away today. Today is your time, too, just as it is the time of youths. By eliminating what is a big part of today, you're missing a big opportunity. You're missing part of life, which is so short that no one should deliberately miss any of it.

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
March 25, 2004 - 07:37 am
To answer your question, ROBBY, yes, there are plenty of artists, writers, composers today who are as important as generals and world leaders and as much worth remembering. If we could only persuade historians to note that fact in the way Will Durant does, then perhaps what they do will become part of history. I'm not optimistic about this.

Mal

Scrawler
March 25, 2004 - 11:55 am
"We are in danger of exaggerating the cruelty of the past for the same reason that we magnify the crime and immorality of the present - because cruelty is interesting by its very rarity."

Now that's an interesting statement. Are we more inclined to read about the "cruelty" of mankind as opposed to the good things that mankind has done. We have only to open our daily newspapers to see the answer for ourselves.

I am also puzzled by Durant's statement: "In the end they became vehicles through which Christianity entered and pervaded the life of Rome." Does anyone know what this statement refers to?

I love all music and I belive it is only in the individual interpretation that music differs. I'm now listening to an instrumental by Frank Chacksfield of "Three Coins in the Fountain" which is totally different than the original and yet you can still hear the melody as I first heard it in the movie years ago.

I am afraid that with the ways things are going in our time that we will be remembered for our generals than for our artists. Of course it still remains to be seen just what we can accomplish in the future.

tooki
March 25, 2004 - 01:25 pm
Durant has been exploring the collegia concept in various ways since the beginning of the book. He introduces the concept on page 63: "Public worship was conducted by several collegia - associations of priest."

On page 80 he mentions, "Free workers had unions or guilds (collegia.)"

Page 128 brings us, "Collegia that had once been mutual benefit societies…."

We are told on page 173 that Clodius restored the legality of the collegia, which the Senate had tried to disband.

Then on page 192 we are told that Caesar "abolished the collegia, except some of ancient origin and the essential religious associations of the Jews."

And recently on page 312, "Doctors formed themselves into collegia."

Now, on page 335 he speaks of "the collegia, or worker's organizations."

There are more references in the index, but I didn't look ahead because it spoils Durant's story to anticipate.

Looking at all these references it seems to me that collegias existed in all areas of Roman life and were important to the functioning of the nation because of the freedom of association that they allowed. The Romans apparently practiced tolerance toward the Jews for many years, letting them organize into collegia.

Thus, I anticipate that Durant is preparing us to understand that the Christians, who were all Jews at first, formed into collegia over the years. They were then able to recruit non-Jews easily into their collegia, becoming Christian breeding grounds.

The "workers' organizations," is brought in because the section we are in is called, "Rome at Work," and Durant is again telling us how important the collegia were.

And, in conclusion, I wish to redundant say that I think Durant is trying to tell us how important collegia were to the organization of Roman life and thus Christianity.

Whew! As my old sculpture mentor used to say, "Tink on dat!"

robert b. iadeluca
March 25, 2004 - 01:26 pm
"The visitor seeking to study the dwellings of the middle class would have found them away from the city's center on the main diverging roads. Their brick-and-stucco exteriors were still built, as before, in the plain and solid style dictated by insecurity and heat. The Roman bourgeois wasted no art on passers-by.

"Few houses rose to more than two stories. Cellars were rare. Roofs sparkled with red tiles. Windows were fitted with shutters or, occasionally, panes of glass. The entrance was usually a double door, each half turning on metal pivots. Floors were of concrete or tile, often of mosaic squares. There were no carpets.

"Around the central atrium were grouped the main rooms of the house. This is the architectural origin of the cloister and the college quadrangle. In the richer houses one or more rooms would be used for bathing, usually in tubs much like our own. Plumbing was carried by the Romans to an excellence unmatched before the twentieth century. Lead pipes brought water from the aqueducts and mains into most tenements and homes. Fittings and stopcocks were of bronze, and some were molded into highly ornamental designs. Leaders and gutters of lead carried rain from the roof.

"Most rooms were heated, if at all, by portable charcoal braziers. A few homes, many villas and palaces, and the public baths enjoyed central heating from wood- or charcoal-burning furnaces supplying hot air to various rooms through tile pipes or passages in floors and walls."

Imagine that! For two thousand years, until the twentieth century, plumbing throughout the "civilized world" did not equal that of the Ancient Romans.

Robby

Shasta Sills
March 25, 2004 - 03:30 pm
So the Romans really were civilized. I watched "The Seven Wonders of Rome" on the Discovery channel last night. They included the Colosseum, the Pantheon, the roads, the public baths, the aqueducts, the Circus Maximus, and Trajan's huge shopping center--the world's first mall, 150 shops on five floors. Even though their military conquests don't impress me, all their wonderful construction does. But was the construction a result of military conquest? Could they have built all these things without the labor of the slaves they captured? I wonder.

robert b. iadeluca
March 25, 2004 - 06:50 pm
Epicurean Rome

30 B.C. - A.D. 96

Justin
March 25, 2004 - 07:01 pm
Mal; I concur in your assesment of modern music. My only thought was that musical idiom does not appear whole cloth. It tends to be evolutionary. Old rhythms tend to be reworked. Musicians implemented improvisation in New Orleans and St Louis. Composers created improvisations called variations on a theme in earlier works. Some cadenza's or operatic embellishment might be called improvisation although I recognize that many cadenzas were specially prepared for singers. Rap music is simply monlogue delivered in fixed rhythms.

I certainly agree that if one does not listen to the music of our time one misses out on the messages of youth. I have noticed a tendency among older people to consider the message of youth to be trivial and therefore not worth listening to. That's too bad.

robert b. iadeluca
March 25, 2004 - 07:03 pm
"Let us enter these dwellings, temples, theatres, and baths, and see how these Romans lived. We shall find them more interesting than their art. We must at the outset recall that by Nero's time they were only geographically Roman. The conditions that Augustus had failed to check -- celebacy, childlessness, abortion, and infanticide among the older stocks, manumission and comparative fertility among the new -- had transformed the racial character, the moral temper, even the physiognomy, of the Roman people.

"Once the Romans had been precipitated into parentage by the impetus of sex, and lured to it by anxiety for the post-mortem care of their graves. Now the upper and middle classes had learned to separate sex from parentage, and were skeptical about the afterworld.

"Once the rearing of children had been an obligation of honor to the state, enforced by public opinion. Now it seemed absurd to demand more births in a city crowded to the point of redolence. On the contrary, wealthy bachelors and childless husbands continued to be courted by sycophants longing for legacies.

"Seneca consoled a mother who had lost her only child by reminding her how popular she would now be. For 'with us childlessness gives more power than it takes away.' The Gracchi had been a family of twelve children. Probably not five families of such abundance could be found in Nero's age in patrician or equestrian Rome.

"Marriage, which had once been a lifelong economic union, was now among a hundred thousand Romans a passing adventure of no great spiritual significance, a loose contract for the mutual provision of physiological conveniences or political aid.

"To escape the testatory disabilities of the unmarried some women took eunuchs as contraceptive husbands. Some entered into sham wedlock with poor men on the understanding that the wife need bear no children and might have as may lovers as she pleased.

"Contraception was practiced in both its mechanical and chemical forms. If these methods failed there were many ways of procuring abortion. Philosophers and the law condemned it, but the finest families practiced it."

Apparently the people wanted the government out of the bedroom.

Robby

tooki
March 25, 2004 - 10:02 pm
CONTRACEPTION AND ABORTION IN THE ANCIENT WORLD

Justin
March 25, 2004 - 10:35 pm
Contemporary conservative Republicans seem to have an inordinate desire to spend time in American bedrooms to the detriment of family life. I am pleased to see that Romans also objected to intrusion in the bedroom by politicians

3kings
March 26, 2004 - 01:54 am
MAL In the matter of Art and Music, good art is what the beholder likes, and bad art is what he does not like. There is nothing absolute in art. I'm sure you, like us all, belong to the school that says " I know what I like, and what I do not like "

If you like the Beatles, (should there be an e instead of an a in there ?)and Hip-Hop etc., fine. But I'm sure there is much other music or art that you do not like, and so do not waste time trying to get to like it.

Many of us Oldies do not like 'modern' forms of art. This is not a fault on our part, anymore than your dislikes are a fault on your part. This is the way the people are, and there is nothing wrong with that ++ Trevor.

robert b. iadeluca
March 26, 2004 - 04:44 am
"We do not know much of Roman childhood, bu we can judge from Roman art and epitaphs that when children came, they were loved not wisely but too well. Juvenal interrupts his wrath to write a tender passage on the good examples we must place before our children's eyes, the evil sights and sounds we must keep from them, the respect that we should show them even in the excesses of our love.

"Seneca and Plutarch spoke to the same effect, which was slight indeed. Wet-nursing was the rule in all families that could afford it, with no evident tragedies ensuing.

"Early education came from the nurse, who was usually Greek. There were fairy tales beginning:-'Once upon a time a king and a queen ...' Primary schooling was still entrusted to private enterprise. Rich men often hired tutors for their children but Quintillian, like Emerson, warned against this as depriving the child of formative friendships and stimulating rivalries.

"Ordinarily the boy and girl of the free classes entered at the age of seven an elementary school, accompanied each way by a paedagugus ('child-leader') to guard his safety and his morals. Such school existed everywhere in the Empire, even in small country towns. The wall scribblings at Pompeii suggest a general literacy, and probably education was then as widespread in the Mediterranean world as at any time before of since. Both the paedagogus and the teacher (ludi magister, 'school master') were usually Greek freedmen or slaves.

"About the age of thirteen the successful student, of either sex, was graduated into a secondary or high school. Rome had twenty of these in A.D. 130. Here the scholars studied more grammar, the Greek languge, Latin and Greek literature, music, astronomy, history, mythology, and philosophy, generally through lecture-commentaries on the classic poets.

"Up to this point the girls seem to have taken the same courses as the boys, but they often sought additional instruction in music and dancing. Since the secondary teachers (grammatici) were nearly always Greek freedmen, they naturally emphasized Greek literature and history. Roman culture took on a Greek tint, until by the end of the second century almost all higher education was given in Greek, and Latin literature was swallowed up in the general Hellenic kaine and culture of the age.

"The Roman equivalent of our college and university education was provided in the schools of the rhetors. The Empire bristled with rhetoricians who spoke for their clients in court, or wrote speeches for them, or gave public lectures, or taught their art to pupils, or did all four. Many of them traveled from city to city, speaking on literature, philosophy, or politics, and giving exhibitions of how to handle any subject with oratorical skill.

"Such men might open a school, employ assistants, and gather a large student body. Pupils entered about their sixteenth year, and paid fees as high as 2000 sesterces per course. The chief subjects were oratory, geometry, astronomy, and philosophy -- which included much that is now termed science."

I am amazed at the influence of the Greeks on the Romans, especially on their young. How does that expression go -- "As the twig is bent, so grows the tree?"

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
March 26, 2004 - 04:47 am
Thank you, TREVOR. I wasn't talking about taste, I was talking about closed-mindedness. If people close their minds to certain types of culture, or ethnic groups, or anything, really, there is no way of understanding them. In this discussion I've had to open my mind to things I had closed my eyes to and purposely ignored and refused to accept before. Because I have, my knowledge, understanding and horizons have broadened, and so has my point-of-view.

Beetles are insects. The Beatles with an A (as in beat, like rhythm) were the group of musicians. They were in existence for only a very short time, but their creative and innovative music changed contemporary music forever. John Lennon and George Harrison are dead. Paul McCartney is still around playing music. I don't know what's happened to Ringo Starr.

You're right. There are many things in art and music that I don't like. I've never liked Wagner or Purcell, for example, but I've listened to, studied and sung their music. I'm not crazy about Bruckner and Mahler, either, but I've listened to their music. It took me a long time to learn to like Johann Sebastian Bach. Well, it took time for me to like lobster, too.

I can't stand Thomas Kinkade's paintings, and he's an artist whose work appeals to many seniors I know. Except for his use of light, Vermeer is not an artist whose works appeal to me. There are technical reasons for this, as there are for some of my dislikes in music, but I wouldn't know that if I'd not examined Kinkade's and Vermeer's paintings, or listened to music that doesn't appeal to me.

I haven't turned myself off, you see. And that's what I was talking about.

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
March 26, 2004 - 04:52 am
"Early education came from the nurse, who was usually Greek,"
And Americans who can afford it love to hire English nannies who can teach their children more than neatness and to look both ways on the street.

Mal

tooki
March 26, 2004 - 09:50 am
"...wet nursing was the rule in all families that could afford it."

I noticed the other day in the newspaper - I just noted it in passing - that wet nursing is making a strong comeback in contemporary America.

Because doctors these days emphasize the advantages of breast feeding, most women manage to do so. (Some of the young mothers I know manage to nurse and hold full time jobs. Will wonders never cease!)

Unfortunately, many contemporary American women are unable to breast feed because their breast implants make it impossible. However, not to worry; there are companies from whom these women can rent a wet nurse. How very Roman!

Scrawler
March 26, 2004 - 11:03 am
I too would like our present-day government out of the bedroom and really out of my house and my life, but I fear that it won't be for sometime. I'm glad to see that even in ancient times that the people felt this way. Perhaps this too is a sign of civilization - that two people centuries apart share the same thoughts.

I can't help but wonder what influence Greek teachers had on the Roman youth. We have learned that many the Roman emperors had Greek teachers. Teaching wasn't the only influence the Greeks had on the Romans - you can see it in their art, poetry, etc. It seems to me that the Romans took what they learned from the Greeks and created a "system of organization" rather than taking what they learned and creating an whole new work of art etc. So can we safely say that the Romans had better organizational skills which can be seen in their cities and the way they ran their armies. As far as eduction is concerned isn't it dangerous to have a conquered Greek have so much influence over the young?

robert b. iadeluca
March 26, 2004 - 12:07 pm
In the ante-bellum South, didn't black slaves (Mammies) often raise white children?

Robby

JoanK
March 26, 2004 - 01:03 pm
"Some of the young mothers I know manage to nurse and hold full time jobs"

My daughter managed to nurse her first baby while she was doing her residency in Family Practice, which often meant working 36 hours straight!! I have no idea how she did it, and she says now she doesn't know either.

Shasta Sills
March 26, 2004 - 03:15 pm
Well, what do you know! I have Quintillian and Emerson to back me up in my objection to home-schooling!

robert b. iadeluca
March 26, 2004 - 03:26 pm
And what is your objection, Shasta?

Robby

Justin
March 26, 2004 - 03:31 pm
Trevor: "Good" art is not what the beholder likes. Nor is "bad" art what the beholder does not like. Good art has absolutely nothing to do with likes and dislikes. Art quality is a function of many things none of which are related to acceptance. If an artist waited for taste to catch up there would no innovation just mediocrity. More often than not attempts to please consumers result in mediocrity. Kincaid's work is a good example. Duchamp's Inverted Urinal is an example of the opposite. It is "good" art that consumers do not "like". The same is true for Picasso's "Bicycle". I can readily think of others, if you like. Perhaps, I will find one you will recognize as fitting the bill.

robert b. iadeluca
March 26, 2004 - 03:41 pm
"The moral life of youth was carefully guarded in the girl -- leniently supervised in the young man. The Roman, like the Greek, readily condoned the resort of men to prostitutes.

"The profession was legalized and restricted. Brothels (lupanaria) were by law kept outside the city walls and could open only at night. Prostitutes (meretrices) were registered by the aediles and were required to wear the toga instead of the stola. Some women enrolled as prostitutes to avoid the legal penalties of detected adultery. Fees were adjusted to bring promiscuity within the reach of every pocketbook.

"But there was now a rising number of educated courtesans who sought to win patrons by poetry, singing, music, dancing, and cultured conversation. One did not have to go outside the walls to find these or other ladies of easy persuasion. Ovid assures us that they could be met under the porticoes, at the circus, in the theater, 'as numerous as stars in the sky.' Juvenal found them in the precincts of temples, particularly that of Isis, a goddess lenient to love.

"Christian authors charged that prostitution was practiced within the cellas and between the altars of Roman temples.

"Male prostitutes were also available. Condemned by law, tolerated by custom, homosexualism flourished with Oriental abandon. 'I am stricken with the heavy dart of love,' sings Horace -- and for whom? -- 'for Lyciscus, who claims in tenderness to outdo any woman.' From this passion he can be freed 'only by another flame for some fair maid or slender youth.' Martial's choicest epigrams turn upon pederasty. One of Juvenal's least publishable satires represents the complaint of a woman against this outrageous competition.

"Erotic poetry of indifferent worth and gender, the Priapeia, circulated freely among sophisticated youths and immature adults."

As we read the news of the day, we realize that "there is nothing new under the sun."

Robby

Justin
March 26, 2004 - 04:38 pm
Let me understand this. If a woman registers as a prostitute to avoid punishment for adultry, she must be married. How else could she be guilty of adultry. If the husband condones this action he endorses his wife's shopping around. Loop holes were as useful in Rome as in the US.

Shasta Sills
March 26, 2004 - 04:56 pm
It's true that there is nothing new under the sun. As you read about the ancient Romans, it somewhat startles you to realize that we are not as unique as we assumed.

I object to home-schooling because these children miss the opportunity to interact with all sorts of other children from all walks of life. School is an introduction to the world. You begin learning there to get along with people. As much as I admire the good education these home-schooled children get, I think they are missing something even more valuable than book knowledge.

JoanK
March 26, 2004 - 09:29 pm
SHASTA: I was home schooled until I was 14. For me I believe it was a good experience. There are all kinds of reasons for homeschooling and some are better than others. In my case, my mother made sure that our house was a social center for the neighborhood kids after school, so my sister and I had plenty of social interaction. But I did (and still do) have trouble "behaving in organized settings. When I entered school for the first time in High School, it was torture for me sitting through boring lessons for hours and keeping my mouth shut. I'm not sure that's all bad. What home schooling gave me --my mother taught me and my sister till about 8 and then gave us the books and said here, teach yourself. I'm still doing it. I think I have a sense of "entitlement" about learning that many others lack. It never occurs to me that I can't learn anything I want to.

tooki
March 26, 2004 - 10:07 pm
The version cited below is translated by an L.C. Smithers, apparently during the latter part of the 19th century. However, what makes this translation especially noteworthy is the extensive appendix by Sir Richard Burton (1821-1890), the famous explorer and author.

The "notes" at the end, by Burton, include a vocabulary of dozens of Latin terms for male and female genitalia, and other extensive discussions of Roman sexuality.

After Burton's death his wife burned all his papers. Since he also had an extensive collection of erotica, it too has been lost.

I hope some of you are, if not fans, at least familiar with the comedian George Carlin and his famous list, compiled about 1972, of seven words that couldn't be used on TV. He has in later years expanded his lists to include genitalia names. I wonder if he knows about Burton's list?

tooki
March 26, 2004 - 10:13 pm
I found The Priapeia in a site devoted to sacred texts. The God, Priapus, was afterall, not completely a laughing matter

Justin
March 26, 2004 - 11:57 pm
The nice thing about the god Priapus is that he may be worshiped for his sacred as well as his secular qualities. If you go to Piraeus you will enjoy seeing his image in admirable public display.

Ginny
March 27, 2004 - 07:24 am
Since you are talking about the Silver Age, I thought you might be interested in these related "happenings" to come in our Books on the subject?

  • The catastrophic eruption of Vesuvius in 79 AD that buried the towns of Herculaneum and Pompeii will be featured in our July selection of the new book Pompeii by Robert Harris. It features a Repairer of Aqueducts and I think you'd enjoy it, it was on the NY Times bestseller lists for a long time.

    This summer the new movie Troy comes out, which covers something you know well from your section on the Greeks and in August we'll offer Achilles in Vietnam first by Dr. Jonathan Shay (WITH Dr. Shay) as it talks about Achilles, the hero of the Greek side of the Trojan War, and the subject of The Iliad which we ill take up in September with Dr. Mark Stone, these two men will provide great further opportunities for learning and we hope YOU in this discussion will want to attend.

    If you're interested in the Latin Language, we have a Latin Book Club going on now, reading Livy on the Death of Cicero, Latin 101 for Beginners starting in September and also the Latin Book Club will read Caesar's Gallic War in a new format, don't miss any or all of these subjects related to your study here: to sum up:

  • . July: Pompeii the new book by Robert Harris
  • August: Achilles in Vietnam by and WITH Dr. Jonathan Shay
  • September: The Iliad with Dr. Mark Stone
  • September Latin 101 for Beginners
  • September: Caesar's Gallic War in a new format!

    Don't miss any of these!
  • Scrawler
    March 27, 2004 - 11:44 am
    I'd like to see the present educational sysem updated so it encompases the changes over the past few years. I don't think puting a large group of children in the same room for 8 or 9 hours while one teacher tries to teach the marjority of children is the way to go. I think education should be on an individual basis. I sent both my children to Monessori schools. Which was very expensive, but well worth it. My daughter did better under this system than my son. I think education should also be molded to the personality of the individual. At any rate my feeling is that our educational system is outdated and should be looked at carefully. Of course, all of this takes money. When we pay a 14 year old millions of dollars to play soccer and teachers have to take one or two extra jobs to survive than something is very wrong. I don't believe we have any Greek slaves or freedmen in our society to take up the task, but our teachers are certainly being paid slave wages.

    Justin
    March 27, 2004 - 06:43 pm
    Why is it teaching is a low paying profession? Nursing is also a low paying profession. I wonder how the appearance of women in these professions has affected the pay scales. Teaching and nursing were two professions an educated woman could enter when I was in the school system. Women were seen as primarily home makers. If they worked they did not need much money because women had husbands to support them. I realize that argument is nonsensical but its acceptance in the thirties and forties may have negatively affected teacher pay scales and what we see today is a result of that attitude.

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 27, 2004 - 08:00 pm
    Below is the salary schedule for the Chapel Hill-Carrboro public school system in North Carolina. The lowest salary at 0 years experience is $25,250 for ten month's work. I never made that much money in a year in my life because I never was paid more than the minimum wage.

    Salary for 10 months work.: Public school teachers, BA degrees

    Salary for 10 month's work. Public school teachers, MA degrees

    Justin
    March 28, 2004 - 12:16 am
    Ther are two things wrong with the NC pay scale that I note. First there is no allowance for merit gain and second the scale is about half the scale in industry for comparable responsibility.

    The battle over individual vrs group learning still rages. Responsible teachers can facilitate group learning (while picking up the strays) very effectively. Unmotivated teachers put out the material but care less about the strays.

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    March 28, 2004 - 05:09 am
    Robby sent me an email to say that his computer has a virus and he won't be able to post for a while.

    Eloïse

    Shasta Sills
    March 28, 2004 - 02:47 pm
    Justin, I think you are right when you say teachers' pay has remained low because originally it was mostly women who went into teaching, and women were never paid salaries equal to men. But it wasn't because women didn't need as much money to live on as men. Most of those teachers were single women, supporting themselves. They were paid low salaries for the simple reason that men didn't think women deserved equal salaries. Women weren't as smart as men so why should they be paid equal salaries as men?

    But what I can't understand is why teachers' salaries have never increased as they should have. We know how important it is to educate a nation. Why do we go on starving our teachers?

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 29, 2004 - 07:08 am
    Since ROBBY does not have the use of his computer at the moment, I don't think he'd mind if we pushed on with this discussion of Epicurean Rome. Starting on Page 369, Durant says:
    "Marriage contended bravely with these rival outlets and, helped by anxious parents and matrimonial brokers, managed to find at least temporary husbands for nearly every girl. Unmarried women above nineteen were considered "old maids," but they were rare.

    "The betrothed couple seldom saw each other; there was no courtship, not even a word for it; Seneca complained that everything else was tested before purchase, but not the bride by the groom.

    "Sentimental attachment before marriage was uncommon; love poetry was addressed to married women or to women whom the poet never thought of marrying; and women's escapades came after marriage, as under similar conditions in medieval and modern France.

    "The elder Seneca assumed widespread adultery among Roman women, and his philosopher son thought that a married women content with two lovers was a paradon of fidelity.

    " 'Pure women,' sang the cynical Ovid, 'are only those whoe have not been asked; and a man who is angry at his wife's amours is a mere rustic.'

    "These may be literary conceits, more reliable in the simple epitaph of Quintus Vespillo to his wife: 'Seldom do marriages last without divorce until death, but ours continued for forty-one years.'

    Juvenal tells of a woman who married eight times in five years. Having been wed for property or politics rather than love, some women considered their duty fulfilled if they surrendered their dowries to their husbands and their persons to their lovers.

    " 'Did we not agree,' an adulteress in Juvenal explained to her unexpected husband, 'that we should both do as we liked?'

    "The emancipation' of women was as complete then as now, barring the formalities for the franchise and the letter of dead laws. Legislation kept women subject, custom made them free."
    What do you think of these goings on, and how do they remind you of today?

    JoanK
    March 29, 2004 - 09:14 am
    "What do you think of these goings on, and how do they remind you of today?"

    They don't remind me of today. Watching my son's friends, now in their thirties. The difference from when I was young is that sex before marraige is now the rule, rather than a dirty little secret. My kids friends vary all over the map in how they handled this, but all of them wanted in the end a stable loving relationship, and most have found it. And although divorce is very common now that doesn't mean that it is easy. I don't know any divorced person who is not carrying around scars from it. This apparently casual putting on and casting off of spouses we see in Rome is not here.

    Because women were free to have lovers does not mean they were free. They were still economically dependent on their husbands. I also wonder if this was all Roman's or only the upper classes.

    HubertPaul
    March 29, 2004 - 11:49 am
    Shasta I think I mentioned the following quite some time ago in this discussion , someone’s quote: ”If gladiators (baseball-, football,- basketball- players etc.) outperform in social standing and salaries the educators, a society is in its decline.

    Add to this the entertainment field.

    Scrawler
    March 29, 2004 - 03:02 pm
    "The emancipation' of women was as complete then as now, barring the formalities for the franchise and the letter of dead laws. Legislation kept women subject, custom made them free."

    I would have to agree that in today's world this is also true. Legislation keeps women suject, while the custom of the day makes them free. I wish for all women to have a healthy and happy marriage and that they be companions to their husbands as they are companions to their wives.

    I can't say that living with someone before marriage is such a bad idea. You never know a person until you've lived with them. Poets and writers think of love as "amore" and like James Joyce and Samuel Beckett go against the mores of the time until they are forced to do so. But alas we are not all great poets or writers.

    Justin
    March 29, 2004 - 04:18 pm
    Very little is the same. Seneca said "no testing". We test. Romans used marriage brokers to get every gal a husband. Dolly Levis are popular only in song today. Romans thought married women were fair game after marriage. Roman women approved. Today, sex before is ok and sex after is in secret. Roman women unmarried at 19 are old maids. Today's ladies may happily live their whole lives in the single free wheeling state without that stigma. Only legislative control is the same. Today, fat assed male legislators think they know more than women about whats good for women.

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 30, 2004 - 07:08 am
    ROBBY's hard drive probably has to be reformatted. That takes a while. Let's continue with Durant:


    "In a number of cases emancipation, as in our time, meant industrialization. Some women worked in shops or factoris, especially in the textile trades, some became lawyers and doctors, some became politically powerful, the wives of provincial governors reviewed and addessed troops. Vestal Virgins secured poltical appointments for their friends, and the women of Pompeii announced their political preferences on the walls.

    "Conservatives moaned and gloated over the apparent fulfillment of Cato's warning that is women achieved equality they would turn it into mastery. Juvenal was horrified to find women actresses, gladiators, poets; Martial describes them as fighting wild beasts, even lions in the arena; Seatius tells of women dying in such jousts.

    "Ladies rode through the streets in sedan chairs, 'exposing themselves on every side to the view', they conversed with men in porticoes, parks, gardens and temple courts; they accompanied them to private or public banquets, to the amphitheater and the theater, where 'their bare shoulders,' said Ovid, 'give you something to contemplate.'

    "It was a gay, colorful, multisexual society that would have astonished the Periclean Greeks. In the spring fashionable women filled the boats, shores and villas of Baise and other resorts with their laughter, their proud beauty, their amorous audacities, and political intrigue. Old men denounced them longingly.

    "Frivolous or immoral women were then, as now, a conspicuous minority. Quite as numerous . . . . though not always distinct . . . . were the ladies who fell in love with art, religion, or literature. Sulpicia's verses were thought worthy of being handed down with those of Tibullus; they were highly erotic, but as they were addressed to her husband they were almost virtuous.

    "Martial's friend Theophilia was a philosopher, a real expert on the Stoic and Epicurean systems. Some women busied themselves in philanthropy and social service, gave temples, theaters, and porticoes to their towns, and contributed as patronesses to collegia. An inscription at Lanuvium speaks of a cria mulierunt, Rome had a conventus matronarum; perhaps Italy had a national federation of women's clubs.

    "In any case, after reading Martial and Juvenal, we are disconcerted to find so many good women in Rome. Octavia faithful to Antony through every betrayal, and rearing devotedly his exotic children; Antonia her loving daughter, the chaste widow of Druss, and the perfect mother of Germanicus; Mallonia,who publicly reproved Arria Paeta, who, when Caccina Paetus was ordered by Claudius to die, plunged a dagger into her breast and, dying, handed the weapon to her husband with the assuring words, 'It does not hurt'; Paulina, who tried to die with Seneca; Politta, who, when Nero had her husband executed, began to starve herself, and, when the same sentence came toher father, joined him in suicide; Epicharia, the freedwoman who suffered every torture rather than betray the conspiracy of Piso; the unnumbered women who concealed and protected their husbands in the proscriptions, went with them into exile, or like Fannia, wife of Helvidius, defended them at great risk and cost; these alone would tip the scale against all the trollops of Martial's epigrams and Juvenal's stings."


    So, what do you think of all this? Now do you think Roman women were like women of today? It appears that most of the men would have liked to keep them pregnant in the summer and barefoot in the winter. Emancipated women certainly brought down the wrath of some noted writers of the day, didn't they? Let's talk about it.

    Scrawler
    March 30, 2004 - 12:02 pm
    "Conservatives moaned and gloated over the apparent fulfillment of Cato's warning that as women achieved equality they would turn it into mastery. Juvenal was horrified to find women actresses, gladiators, poets; Martial describes them as fighting beasts, even lions in the arena; Seatius tells of women dying in such jousts."

    I know in my research of the 1860s that many women followed their husbands or lovers into the American Civil War and many died desguised as men.

    But should we believe Cato's warning that as women achieved equality they would turn it into mastery. Does this mean that as women become equal to men that they will become their masters? I am sure that in today's society you find examples of just such a situation as described above. But I believe that there are more men and women working today as partners either in business or in their own personal lives. I doubt that the women of today will so easily be mastered as they were even when I was young. Nor do I think that men should be so easily mastered either. As far as the writers and the poets of Rome, being against women's emancipation, I think you have to keep in mind that they so women in a romantic way. Seeing a woman fight with wild animals in a arena probably didn't appeal to these particular men. How could they write a romantic lyric to these women?

    Justin
    March 30, 2004 - 02:02 pm
    Watching women fight animals in an arena is different from watching gals on television wipe out guys twice their size with a little judo. We don't expect serious outcomes of from the tv action but in the arena, the gals exposed their lives.

    There are many notable examples of women forming up to charge an enemy in the Civil War and of course today the gals take on a full role in combat without serious public objection. It's about time women were given full credit for their backbone. It's often a lot stiffer than the bones of many men I have known.

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 30, 2004 - 08:40 pm
    "Behind such heroines were the nameless wives whose marital fidelity and maternal sacrifices sustained the whole sturcture of Roman life. The old Roman virtues . . . . pietas, gravitas, simplicitas . . . . the mutual devotioin of parents and children, a sober sense of repsonsibility, an avoidance of extravagance or display . . . . still survived in Roman homes. The refined and wholesome families described in Pliny's letters did not suddenly begin with Nerva and Trajan; they had existed quietly through the age of the despots; they had survived the espionage of emperors, the detachment of a helpless populace, the vulgarity of the demimonde.



    "We catch glimpses of such homes in the epitaphs of mate to mate and of parents to children. 'Here,' reads one, 'lie the bones of Ursalia, wife of Primus. She was dearer to me than life. She died at twenty-three, beloved of all. Farewell, my consolation!'

    "And another: ' To my dear wife, with whom I passed eighteen happy years. For love of her I have sworn never to remarry.'

    "We can picture these women in their homes . . . . spinning wool, scolding and educating their children, directing husbands in the immemorial worship of the household gods.

    "Despite her immorality it was Rome, not Greece, that raised the family to new heights in the ancient world."


    Does this surprise you, that Rome focused so much attention on the family, and that Greece did not? Do you see women today who spend time educating their children, even if they work outside the home? Or has the family structure weakened in your country? Do you think it is beyond repair?

    JoanK
    March 30, 2004 - 08:48 pm
    " Do you see women today who spend time educating their children, even if they work outside the home? "

    Yes!!

    3kings
    March 30, 2004 - 09:43 pm
    I don't believe the women of Rome were different to their counterparts in Greece (or to the women of today, for that matter )

    Sure there are cosmetic differences between nationalities and races, but under the posturing and appearances, one collection of people is much the same as another.

    I do not subscribe to the view that one 'tribe' is superior or inferior to any other. Indiviuals differ, groups do not. == Trevor

    Justin
    March 31, 2004 - 12:07 am
    Durant leads me to think that a typical Roman family consisted of two parents, perhaps an extended family, and a wife and mom who stayed at home with the kids. Today, many children are raised in single parent homes. Many are latch key kids. When they come home from school to an empty house they are alone and without support. I realize the single parent problem has always been with us but it seems to be more prevalent these days. Do the kids of single parents grow up to be any less secure than those kids with a full complement of parents? If the answer is yes, we are in for a generation troubled by much anxiety and it may account for the number of voters who see father figures in politicians.

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 31, 2004 - 04:29 am
    JUSTIN, I think many latch key kids do fine. I was one from the age of 11, and alone and on my own all summer every year. Look at me: I'm trustworthy, loyal, friendly, reliable, stable except financially, learned early how to study and practice my music on my own. Except for certain faults I won't list, ha ha, I did just fine.

    (We won't mention how much I hated to wash the stuck-on-oatmeal breakfast dishes when I got home from school and the nasty tendency I had to burn the potatoes I peeled and put on to boil for supper because I was having so much fun playing the piano in the living room.)

    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 31, 2004 - 04:33 am
    DRESS



    "If we can judge from a few hundred statues, the Roman males of Nero's day were shorter and softer in figure and features than the men of the young Republic. World role kept many of them characteristically hard and stern, fearful rather than lovable, but food and wine and sloth had rounded many others into shapes that would have scandalized the Sciopios.

    "They still shaved, or, more usually, were shaved by barbers (tonsores). A youth's first shave was a holyday in his life; often he piously dedicated his original whiskers to a god.

    "Common Romans continued the republican traditions and had their hair cut close, or even cropped, but an increasing number of dandies had theirs curled; Mark Antony and Domitian are so represented. Many men wore wigs, some had the semblance of hair painted on their pates.

    "All classes, indoors and out, now dressed in a simple tunic or blouse; the toga was donned only for formal occasions, by clients at receptioins and by patricians in the Senate or at the games. Caesar wore a purple toga as a sign of office; many dignitaries imitated him; but soon the purple robe became a prerogative of the emperors. There were no irksome trousers, no elusive buttons, no dropping hose; buyt in the second century man began to wrap their legs with fasciae, or bands.

    "Footwear ranged from the sandal . . . a leather or cork sole attached Nipponwise by a thong between the big and second toes . . . . to the high shoe of full leather, or of leather and clothe, usually worn with the toga in synthesis or full dress.

    "Roman women of the early Empire, as seen in frescoes and statuary and on coins, were much like the women of the United States at the beginning of the twentieth century, except that they were nearly all brunette.

    "Their figures were moderately slender, and their robes gave their carriage a hypnotic grace. They knew the value of sunshine, exercise and fresh air; some brandished dumbbells, some swam assiduously, some dieted, otehrs reined in their bosoms with stays.

    "Feminine hair was usually combed back and bound in a knot behind the neck, often enclosed in a net, and tied with a band or ribbon over the head. Later fasions demanded a loftier coiffure, supported by wire and elaborated with a wig of blonde hair imported from German maids. A woman of fashion might occupy several slaves for hours in manicuring her nails and dressing her hair.



    "Cosmetics were as varied as today. Juvenal describes 'beautification' as one of the most important technologies of the age; physicians, queens, and poets wrote volumes on the subject.



    "A Roman lady's boudoir was an arsenal of cosmetic instruments . . . . tweezers, scissors, razors, files, brushes, combs, strigils, hair nets, wigs . . . . and jars or phials of perfumes, crems, oils, pastes, pumice stone, soaps. Depilitaries were used to remove hair, scented ointments to wave it or fix it.



    "Many women applied to their faces a nocturnal mask of dough and asses' milk in a mixture concocted by Poppaea, who found it helpful in repairing a bad complexion, therefore asses followed her in all her travels; sometimes she took s whole herd wit her and bathed in asses' milk.

    "Faces were whitened or rouged with paint, brows and eyelashes were dyed black or painted over, sometimes the veings of the temple were traced with delicate lines of blue.



    "Juvenal complained that a rich woman 'reeks of Poppaean ontments that stick to the lips of her unfortunate husband,' who never sees her face. Ovid found these arts disillusioining and advised the ladies to conceal them from their lovers . . . . all but the combing of their hair, which entranced him."


    See any similarities here?

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 31, 2004 - 04:44 am
    Poppaea

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 31, 2004 - 04:47 am
    Roman clothing

    More Roman clothing

    Ancient Roman cosmetics found in London 2003

    tooki
    March 31, 2004 - 08:31 am
    I don't worry about the Roman latch key kids because back in the olden days in ancient Rome I don't suppose anyone locked their doors. (I'm sorry about that comment).

    I do think about the Roman nuclear family, or even extended family. What with Poppa going off to Romania, Germanius, or wherever on a ten year OR MORE enlistment, I wonder what Momma did while he was gone?

    Durant discusses family life as if it were quite stable. The reality of male life in an extended Empire must have necessitated long, frequent, and dangerous separations. Life in the Legion was not easy, as has been noted and discussed. No wonder so many of them went off to the campaigns, married and settled in the foreign lands. I suppose many left a wondering wife back home in Italy.

    Furthermore, it's likely that the independence of Roman women has, as one of its determinants that with Hubby off carving out more Empire, Momma took over.

    Scrawler
    March 31, 2004 - 10:20 am
    On the surface women of today have the same difficulties as they had in ancient times. We have technology in medicine and science that frees up more time for women to be more creative with their lives. As for children being left alone, I think it depends on the personality of the child. My daughter did better than my son at being on her own, but both learned to be independent which helped them later in life. I on the other hand when I was a child was never left alone and it wasn't until my husband died and I was suddenly alone that I had to cope with being independent.

    As far as dress, today's society dictates what we should wear. I see poka dots are back - yikes I didn't like them the first time around. Is it just my imagination or are fashions getting more youthful? At any rate I think the fashions of ancient Roman was probably no different than any other era. They were dictated by what the upper class was wearing - much like today's fashion.

    Shasta Sills
    March 31, 2004 - 04:13 pm
    Hmmm... I wonder if donkey's milk really does anything for the complection>

    tooki
    March 31, 2004 - 05:23 pm
    a slight digression. Pokka dots will always be in style even when they are diamonds and precious jewels sewn on the dress to present the Princess as a star shining in the firmament.

    That's why, "Pokka Dots and Moonbeams," was such a popular song way back in the 50's. It segued into a jazz standard. Surprisingly it can still be heard on Portland's all jazz station, although the charming, young announcers don't have a clew what the song is about.

    And, as far as donkeys are concerned, I've traveled with a great number of Asses in my life, and it hasn't done my complexion any good.

    Malryn (Mal)
    March 31, 2004 - 07:45 pm
    "polka dot (po´ke) noun
    1. One of a number of dots or round spots forming a pattern, as on cloth.
    2. A pattern or fabric with such dots."



    The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition copyright © 1992 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Electronic version licensed from INSO Corporation. All rights reserved.

    Justin
    March 31, 2004 - 11:12 pm
    I am happy to hear that latch key kids are not a source of difficulty in society. I wasn't sure about that.

    Poppea went about with a lot of asses too and I doubt that her complexion changed however she changed the complexion of quite a few others some of whom were asses.

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 1, 2004 - 05:05 am
    Well, for the past five days my life has been much closer to the community in which I live which is another way of saying that I was closed out from the rest of the world except for TV which had nothing but garbage on the channels I receive and the relief of NPR radio when I got home at night. It was a lonely feeling. Yes, life went on without the computer but only those of you who have had a similar experience of almost a week without your computer have known how emotionally dependent our lives are on it.

    My local "guru" worked on it for two hours cleaning it up. Apparently the virus "Downloader Trojan" had done a job. My Norton removed that virus but it was too late. Trojan had already spread other stuff which caused me to receive NUMEROUS popup ads that obliterated the screen, often froze the screen, sent me to the wrong location, knocked out various icons on my desktop, and had a wonderful time. I got a quick email off to Eloise only moments before I got a message that my memory was running out and then everything stopped. I couldn't even work off line. My guru installed "Ad-Aware" which may help with the popup ads.

    BLESSINGS ON YOU, MAL, for your yeoman (woman?)job in keeping the group on topic and for everyone else responding in your usual interesting way. And guess what, Mal? As a way of saying "thank you," I am going to lean on you today and tomorrow. Because of various responsibilities related to my work, I will not be able to become active here again until Saturday morning. Isn't that nice of me?

    There may be one or two new participants due to the ad in BookBytes and, if there are, I'm sure everyone here will welcome them.

    YOU ARE SUCH A MARVELOUS GROUP!!!

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 1, 2004 - 05:37 am
    Thank you, ROBBY, and welcome home. I came prepared.

    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 1, 2004 - 05:42 am
    According to the New York Times this morning Professor Alan X. Katzberg of Tufts University has found proof that the Roman Empire never existed.

    At an archeological dig near Craggeloch, Scotland fragments of stone tablets were found recently which prove that what historians have believed was the Roman Empire was actually the creation of an innovative ancient entrepreneur named Disnius in 527 BCE. It seems that Disnius built a series of what are called AGORA THEMA PARCA in what previously was thought to be the Roman Empire. Click the link below for more.

    Source:

    Roman Empire a hoax?

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 1, 2004 - 05:51 am
    "Delicate lingerie was now added to the simple feminine garments of pre-Hannibalistic Rome. Scarfs fell over the shoulders, and veils made an alluring mystery of the face. In winter soft furs caressed affluent forms. Silk was so common that men as well as women wore it.



    "Silk and linen were colored with costly dyes; Romans often paid a thousand dollars for a pound of double-dyed Tyrian wool. Embroideries of gold and silver thread decorated dresses, curtains, carpets, and coverlets.



    "Women's shoes were made of soft leather or cloth, sometimes elaborately cut into an openwork pattern; they might be trimmed with gold and beset with jewelry; and high heels were often added to remedy the shortcomings of nature.



    "Jewelry was n important part of a woman's equipment. Rings, earrings, necklaces, amulets, bracelets, breast chains, brooches, were necessities of lfe. Lollia Paulina once wore a dress covered from head to foot with emeralds and pearls, and carried with her the receipts showing that they cost 40,000,000 sesterces.



    "Pliny describes over a hundred varieties of precious stones used in Rome. Expert imitations of these provided a busy industry; Roman 'emeralds' of glass were superior to modern forgeries and were sold as genuine by jewelers as late as the nineteenth century.



    "Men as well as women were fond of large and conspicuous stones. One senator had in his ring an opal as big as a filbert. Hearing of it, Antony had him proscribed; he escaped, carrying 2,000,000 sesterces on his finger; doubtless jewelry was than, as often, a hedge against inflation or revolution.



    "Silver plate was now common in all but the lower classes. Tiberius and later emperors issued edicts against luxury, but these could not be enforced and were soon ignored. Tiberius yielded, and confessed that the extravagance of patricians and parvenus gave employment to the artisans of Rome and the East, and allowed provincial tribute to flow back from the capital. 'Without luxury,' he said, 'how could Rome, how could the provinces, live?'



    "Roman dress was not more luxurious than that of modern women, and far less gorgeous and costly than the garb of medieval lords. Fashion did not change in Rome as rapidly as in modern cities, a good garment might be worn a lifetime and rrmain in style.



    "But compared with the standards of the Reublic before Lucullus and Pompey had brought in the loot and hedonism of the East, upper-class Rome was now an epicurean paradise of fine clothing, varied food, elegant furniture, and stately homes.



    "Shorn of political leadership, almost of political power, the aristocracy retired from the curia to its palaces, and abandoned itself, with no morals but philosophy, to the pursuit of pleasure and the art of life."


    The aristocracy had no political leadership? How come? Is that happening here?

    tooki
    April 1, 2004 - 06:55 am
    they will get even by making up facts about the real Rome, Suckered me right in.

    The aristocracy and political power: We are in the period 30BC-AD96. Octavian received tribunician power for life in 30 BC. It is my understanding, restated here, that the Patricians ceased being a political power during the Empire. Durant seems to be merely reemphasizing this fact to help us understand the Romans' epicurean ways and why they had so much time on their hands.

    Ann Alden
    April 1, 2004 - 07:21 am
    Come and join us with your opinions of Outsourcing!!

    Ann Alden "---Jobs on the Move ~ PBS/By the People ~ April 1" 4/1/04 6:09am

    Scrawler
    April 1, 2004 - 02:24 pm
    Cosmetics:

    Roman men and women were often unrestrained in their use of cosmetics. Roman soldiers returned from Eastern duty laden with, and often wearing, Indian perfumes, cosmetics, and a blond hair preparation of yellow flour, pollen, and fine gold dust. And there is evidence that fashionable Roman women had on their vanity vertually every beauty aid available today. The first-century epigrammatist Martial criticized a lady friend , Galla, for wholly making over her appearance: "While you remain at home, Galla, your hair is at the hairdresser's; you take out your teeth at night and sleep tucked away in a hundred cosmetics boxes - even your face does not sleep with you. Then you wink at men under an eyebrow you took out of a drawer that same morning."

    Does Galla sound like somebody you know?

    Welcome back Robby. I know what you mean when we had our "big snow storm" in Portland, Oregon awhile back I was reading by candlelight just to have something to do.

    Yet another mystery solved: For a long time it was belived that our word "cosmetic" came from the name of the most famous makeup merchant in the Roman Empire during the reign of Julius Caesar: Cosmis. Recently it has been concluded that the word stems from the Greek "Kosmetikos", meaning "skilled in decorating".

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 1, 2004 - 10:15 pm
    A Roman day



    "The luxuries of the home far outran the luxuries of dress. Floors of marble and mosaic; columns of polychrome marble, alabaster, onyx; walls painted with brilliant murals of encrusted with costly stones, ceilings sometimes coiffered in gold or plate glass, tables with citrus wood standing on ivory legs, divans decorated with tortoise shell, ivory, silver, or gold, Alexandrian brocades or Babylonian coverings for which common millionaires paid 800,000, Nergo 4,000,000 sesterces, beds of bronze fitted with mosquito netting, candelabra of bronze, marble, or glass; statues and paintings and objects of art; vases of Corinthian bronze or Murrhine glass . . . these were some of the ornaments that crowded the mansions of Nero's age.



    "In such a home the master lived as in a museum. Slaves had to be bought to guard this wealth, and others to guard these. Some houses had 400 of them, engaged in attendance, supervision, or industry; the life of the great man, even in the privacy of his rooms, was spend in the publicity of his slaves.



    "To eat with a servant at each elbow, to undress with a slave at each boot, to relax with a menial at every door . . . this is not paradise. To assure the misery of wealth the great man began his day, about seven, by receiving his 'clients' and parasites and offering his cheeks to their kisses. After two hours of this he might breakfast. Then he received and returned formal visits of his friends.



    "Etiquette required that one must repay the calls of every friend, help him in his lawsuits and candidacies, attend the betrothal of his daughter, the coming of age of his son, the reading of his poems, the signing of his will. These and other social obligations were performed with a grace and courtesy not exceeded in any civilization. Then the great man went to the Senate, or labored on some governmental commission, or attended to his personal affairs.



    "For the man of modest means life was simpler, not not less arduous. After the social calls of the early morning he gave himself to his business till noon. Humble folk were at their work by sunrise; as there was little night life, the Romans took full advantage of the day.



    "A light luncheon came at noon, dinner at three or four . . . the higher the class, the later the hour. After luncheon and a siesta, the peasant and the employed prolétaire returned to work till nearly sunset; others sought recreation outdoors or in the public baths.



    "The Romans of the Empire took their bathing more religiously than their gods. Like the Japanese, they could bear public better than private smells, and no ancient people but the Egyptians rivaled them in cleanliness. They carried handkerchiefs (sudaria) to wipe away their sweat, and brushed their teeth with powders and paste. In the early Republic a bath every eighth day had sufficed; now one had to bathe daily or risk a Martial's epigram, even the rustic, says Galen, bathed every day. Most houses had bathrooms, rich houses had bathrooms sparkling with marble, glass, or silver fixtures and taps. But the majority of free Romans relied on the public baths.



    "Ordinarily these were privately owned. In 33 B.C. there were 150 in Rome; in the fourth century A.D. there were 856, besides 1353 public swimming pools. More popular than such establishments were the great baths built by the state, managed by concessionnaires and staffed by hundreds of slaves. These thermae . . . . 'hot [ waters ]' . . . . eredcted by Agrippa, Nero, Titus, Trajan, Caracalla, Alexander Severus, Dioclerian, and Constantine, were monuments of state-socialistic splendor.



    "The baths of Nero had 1600 marble seats and accommodated 1600 bathers at one time; the Baths of Caracalla and those of Diocletian accommodated 3000 each. Admission was open to any citizen for a quadrans ( 1 1/2 cents ), the government met the balance of the cost, and apparently oil and service were included in the fee. The baths were open from daybreak to one P.M. for women, from two to eight P.M. for men; but mixed bathing was allowed by most of the emperors.



    "Normally the visitor went first to a dressing room to change his clothes, then to the palaestra to box, wrestle, run, jump, hurl the disk or the spear, or play ball. One ball game was like our 'medicine ball'; in another tow opposed groups scrambled for a ball, and carried it forward against each other with all the enterprise of a modern university. Sometimes professional ballplayers would come to the baths and give exhibitions. Oldsters who preferred to take their exercise by proxy went to massage rooms and had a slave rub away their fat."


    I once told someone that in the future when anyone looks at the number of bathtubs and swimming pools in this country, they'll think we were the dirtiest people in the world. It looks as if Rome was full of modern-day spas. At 1 1/2 cents a throw, I'd go to one, too.

    3kings
    April 1, 2004 - 11:00 pm
    A stone as big as a filbert ? How big is that, and what's a filbert, anyway ? == Trevor

    JoanK
    April 1, 2004 - 11:09 pm
    TREVOR: you aren't up on your nuts? A filbrt is the shape of an acorn, but about the size of an almond. Now if he had said coconut, that would be something!!!

    Justin
    April 2, 2004 - 12:46 am
    Nuts!

    tooki
    April 2, 2004 - 07:28 am
    What was it with the Romans and all the bathing? The explanations that it was a warm country, it was social, etc., don't cut it for me. What would Freud have surmised? Or anyone else for that matter. What do you surmise? I surmised that the Romans, after building all those roads, big buildings with arches, and other mansions had to build more stuff that put their great architectural and engineering talents to work. Ergo! Let's build baths, lots of them, and make folks stay clean.

    tooki
    April 2, 2004 - 07:37 am
    Are the origins of the dreaded "mafia" to be found in the early customs of the Empire? The great man "offered his cheeks to clients' kisses. ...social obligations performed with a grace and courtesy not exceeded in any civilization."

    This ancient Roman emphasis on the father caring for his family seems to have been transmitted whole down to modern criminals; it's even called "costra mostra," or something like that. (Could I be misled by a movie?)

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 2, 2004 - 08:00 am
    TOOKI, according to sociologist Henner Hess:


    "The subculture of Mafiosi had its beginnings in the 1860s as an extension of feudalism in Sicily. In Hess's book we meet the true Mafiosi, uomo d'onore, a man of honor, the Godfather.

    "Hess easily dismisses the historical fallacies of an ancient foundation for a Mafia, rooted in culture, religion, Freemasonry or other popular esoteric sources. Surprisingly, the Mafia of secret rituals and structured crime families competing and cooperating on an immense scale in international crime is a relatively recent phenomenon in Italy, one imported from America."

    Bubble
    April 2, 2004 - 10:09 am
    First there are three interactive maps. One of Roman Italy, one of the Empire, and one of the City of Rome. Choose one of the options from the drop down selector and click "Go" to see it on the map.

    Second there is the Illustrated History itself, which is divided into chapters.

    Thirdly, there is the Re-enactors section. In this section you can check out photos of re-enactments of the history of Rome.

    Check out all the picture pages as they are fabulous.

    http://www.roman-empire.net/index.html

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 2, 2004 - 10:14 am
    Fantastic site, BUBBLE. Thank you!

    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 2, 2004 - 10:26 am
    Ancient Roman baths

    Baths at Caracalla

    Scrawler
    April 2, 2004 - 11:19 am
    Bathing:

    It was the Romans, around the 2nd century BC, who turned bathing into a social occasion. They constructed massive public bath complexes which could rival today's most elaborate and expensive health clubs. With their love of luxury and leisure, the Romans outfitted these social baths with gardens, shops, libraries, exercise rooms, and lounge areas for poetry redings.

    The Baths of Caracalla offered Roman citizens a wide range of health and beauty options. In one immense complex there were body oiling and scraping salons (?); hot, warm, and cold tub baths; sweating rooms; hair shampooing, scenting, and curling areas; manicure shops; and a gymnasium. A selection of cosmetics and perfumes could also be purchased. After being exercised, washed, and groomed, a Roman patron could read in the ajoining library or stop into a lecture hall for a discussion of philosophy or art. A gallery displayed works of Greek and Roman art, and in another room, still part of the complex, slaves served platters of food and poured wine.

    The Roman club was large and catered to a great number of members sometimes up to twenty-five hundred at one time. And this was just the men's spa. Similar though smaller facilities were often available to women.

    At first the men and women bathed separately, but later mixed bathing became the fashion and it lasted into the early Christian era, until the Catholic Church began to dictate state policy.

    From the decline of the Roman Empire when invding babarians destroyed most of the tiled baths and terra-cotta aqueducts until the later Middle Ages, the bath, and cleanliness in general, was little known or appreciated.

    One question came to mind - Did all this luxury bathing make the Romans soft? Could this be one more reason why Rome fell to the babarians? Are we too in danger of becoming soft while enjoying such luxuries ourselves?

    Having lived in a European family most of my life I know that "kissing" on the cheeks is just a formal greeting and everybody does it. Of course as teenagers, we tended to take it to the extreme until an aunt or uncle would tap us on the shoulder and look knowingly at us with raised eyebrows. I guess that's where we get the term "kissing cousins" from.

    Shasta Sills
    April 2, 2004 - 02:52 pm
    With all those people in the pool, I wonder if there was a system for circulating the water and keeping it clean? Well, of course the Romans would have thought of that and figured out how to do it.

    Justin
    April 2, 2004 - 04:26 pm
    Bubble; You came back to us with a triumph. The reenactment photos are outstanding. Nice to have you back where you belong.

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 2, 2004 - 06:17 pm
    Mal, you are doing such a stupendous job as DL -- Bubble, you came back to us with a BANG with that incredible link -- and the rest of you are participating so magnificently and providing such interesting links, that I am tempted to take another week off. I don't really have to return tomorrow morning. I didn't sign any paper.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 2, 2004 - 06:29 pm
    Sure, ROBBY, take as much time as you need. But when you're lying out there in the warm Spring sun drinking some heavenly iced nectar, get up once in a while to check your computer for the BIG SOS from me!

    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 2, 2004 - 10:11 pm
    "Passing to the baths proper, the citizen entered the tepidarium . . . . in this case a warm-air room; thence he went on to the calidarium, or hot-air room; if he wished to perspire still more freely, he moved into the laconicum, and gasped in superheated steam. Then he took a warm bath and washed himself with anovelty learned from the Gauls . . . soap, made from tallow and the ashes of the beech or the elm. These warm rooms were the most popular and gave the baths their Greek name; probably they were Rome's attempt to forestall or mitigate rheumatism and arhritis.



    "The bather progressed to the frigidarium and took a cold bath; he might also dip into the piscina, or swimming pool. Then he had himself rubbed with some oil or ointment, usually made from the olive; this was not washed off, but merely scraped off with a strigil and dried with a towel, so that some oil might be returned to the skin in place of that which the warm baths had removed.



    "The bather seldom left the <u.thermae at this point. For these were clubhouses as well as baths; they provided rooms for games like dice and chess, galleries of painting and statuary, exedrae where friends might sit and converse, libraries where a musician or poet might give a recital or a philosopher might explain the world. In these afternoon hours after the bath, Roman society found its chief meeting point; both sexes mingled freely in gay but polite association, flirtation, or discussion; there, and at the games and in the parks, the Romans could indulge their passion for talk, their fondness for gossip, and learn all the news and scandal of the day.



    "If they wished they could have dinner in the restaurant at the baths, but most of them dined at home. Perhaps because of the lassitude caused by exercise and warm bathing, the custom was to recline at meals. Once the women had sat apart while the men reclined; now the women reclined beside the men. The triclinium, or dining room, was so named because it usually contained three couches, arranged in square-magnet form around a serving table. Each couch normally accommodated three persons. The diner rested his head on his left arm, and his arm on a cushion, while the body extended diagonally away from the serving table.



    "The poorer classes continued to live chiefly on grains, dairy products, vegetables, fruits, and nuts. Pliny lists a wide assortment of vegetables in the Roman dietary, from garlic to rape. The well to do ate meat, with the usual superabundance of reckless carnivores. Pork was the favorite flesh food, Pliny praises the pig for furnishing fifty different dainties. Pork sausages (botuli) were hawked through the streets in portable ovens, as on our highways today.



    "When one dined ast a banquet he expected rarer foods. The banquet began at four and lasted till late in the night or till the next day. The tables were strewn with flowers and parley, the air was scented with exotic perfumes, the couches were soft with cushions, the servants were stiff with livery. Between the appetizer (gustatio) and the dessert (secondo mensa, "second table") came the luxury dishes on which the host and his chef prided themselves.



    "Rare fish, rare birds, rare fruit, appealed to the curiosity as well as the palate. Mullets were bought at a thousand sesterces a pound, Asinius Celer pais 8000 for one; Juvenal growled that a fisherman cost less than a fish. As an added delight for the guests, the mullet might be brought in alive and boiled before their eyes, that they might enjoy the varied colors it took in the agony of death.



    "Vedius Pollio raised these sequipedalian fish in a large tank and fed them with unsatisfactory slaves. Eels and snails were considered dainties, but the law forbade the eating of dormice. The wings of ostriches, the tongues of flamingoes, the flesh of songbirds, the livers of goose, were favorite dishes. Apicius, a famous epicure under Tiberius, invented the pate de foie gras by fattening the livers of sows with a diet of figs.



    "Custom allowed the diner to empty his stomach with an emetic after a heavy banquet. Some gluttons performed this operation during the meal and then returned to appease their hunger, vomunt ut edant, edunt ut vomunt, said Seneca . . . . "they vomit to eat, and eat to vomit." Such behavoir was exceptional and no worse than the braggart drunkenness of American conventioneers.



    "Pleasanter was the custom of presenting gifts to the guests, or letting flowers or perfumes fall upon them from the ceiling, or entertaining them with music, dancing, poetry, or drama. Conversation, loosened with wine and stimulated by the presence of the other sex, would conclude the evening.



    "We must not think of such banquets as the customary end of a Roman day, or as more frequent in a Roman's life than the dinners-cum-oratory so popular today. History, like the press, misrepresents life because it loves the exceptional and shuns the newsless career of an honest man or the quiet routine of a normal day.



    "Most Romans were like our neighbors and ourselves; they rose reluctantly, ate too much, worked too much, played too little, loved much, seldom hated, quarreled a bit, talked a great deal, dream waking dreams, and slept."




    Have you ever had the good fortune to spend a week at a spa, or have you belonged to one where you could go and work out, use the jacuzzi and the steam room, or swim in the pool, perhaps have a massage? This is the closest I can think of to Roman baths. I went to one in California which was a real meeting place for my hostess and her friends. I also remember going to brunches in Florida where enormous amounts of food were on display and ready to be served, from platters of oysters and trout to huge roasts of beef and everything in between, not to mention a huge number of desserts. Never, though, did I see a vomitarium, if that is the correct word.

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 3, 2004 - 04:58 am
    Not that I was planning to re-enter this discussion with such an unpleasant comment but when I was a young fellow my uncle told me about a factory near him which produced rubber goods. Apparently the chemicals used in that factory regularly made the employees sick and there was a "vomitarium" -- for want of a better word -- created purposely where those unfortunate individuals could appease their poor bodies and then return to work. I assume that with new Federal regulations over the years that no such situation now exists.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 3, 2004 - 05:04 am
    Now that all of you (with Mal's excellent guidance -- THANK YOU!) have fed the Romans and clothed them in their finery, let us put them together and move on as Durant describes for us what he calls "A ROMAN HOLIDAY."

    We start with "The Stage."

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 3, 2004 - 05:30 am
    "Having many gods to worship, and many provinces to milk, Rome had many holidays, once solemn with religious pageantry, now gay with secular delight. In summer many of the poor fled from the humid heat to suburban or riverside taverns or groves, -- drinking, dining, dancing, and loving in the open air. Those who could afford it might go to the bathing resorts that lined the western coast, or sport with the rich on Baiae's bay.

    "In winter it was the ambition of every caste-conscious Roman to go south, if possible to Rhegium or Tarentum, and return with a coat of tan as a certificate of class. But those who stayed in Rome found entertainment plentiful and cheap. Recitations -- lectures -- concerts -- mimes -- plays -- athletic contests -- prize fights -- horse races -- chariot races -- mortal combats of men with men or beasts -- not-quite-sham naval battles on artificial lakes -- never was a city more bountifully amused.

    "In the early Empire there were in the Roman year seventy-six festival days on which ludi were performed. Of these, fifty-five were ludi scenici, devoted to plays or mimes. Twenty-two were games in the circus, the stadium, or the amphitheater. The number of ludi increased until by A.D. 354 they were presented on 175 days in the year.

    "This meant no growth in the Roman drama. On the contrary, the drama decayed while the stage prospered. Original dramas were now written to be read rather than played. The theater contented itself with old Roman and Greek tragedies, old roman comedies, and mimes. Stars dominated the stage and made huge fortunes.

    "Aesopus the tragedian, after a life of assiduous extravagance, left 20,000,000 sesterces. Roscius the comic actor made 500,000 sesterces a year and became so rich that for several seasons he acted without pay -- a scorn of money that made this ex-slave the lion of aristocratic gatherings.

    "The games of the circus and the amphitheater absorbed the interest and coarsened the taste of the public. The Roman drama died in the arena, anaother martyr to Roman holidays."

    For one year after graduating high school, I lived with my Italian grandparents in the very Italian Bensonhurst section of Brooklyn. It seemed to me that every time I turned around there was another "Fest" being held. The ancient Romans were celebrating many gods and the current Italians were celebrating one God -- but there the difference ended. The street was the stage.

    The local priest was always present so it was a religious spectacle but it was also secular -- street musicians, mini-plays, clowns, races, dancing (it was so much fun to see couples the age of my grandparents dancing right out on the street), drinking (almost always within limits) and eating, eating, eating. For a few blocks there was booth after booth after booth with every kind of Italian savory known to exist.

    The Fest would come to an end -- what seemed to me like just a few days would pass -- and suddently there it was again -- a parade honoring a different Saint this time and the outdoor spectacale returned.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 3, 2004 - 05:51 am
    Our friend, MOXIE (Marie DiMauro Fredrickson), wrote a story about an ancient Roman holiday which has been transferred to the Massachusetts city where she grew up and is still celebrated by her family. Circumstances have forced MOXIE to be without a computer for several weeks and perhaps several weeks more. I know she'd be pleased if she knew I posted a link to her story here. The illustration is a picture that was taken in the city where she once lived, Lawrence, Massachusetts.

    Festival of the Three Saints by Marie DiMauro Fredrickon

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 3, 2004 - 06:01 am
    Yes, Mal - YES! Moxie's story tells exactly what I was trying to explain and also portrays what Durant was telling us. And Moxie reminds me. I forgot to tell about those large magnificent floats.

    Please go into Mal's link, everybody!

    Robby

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    April 3, 2004 - 07:39 am
    Nice piece by Moxie Mal. This is so interesting to me because I have moved recently to an Italian district and apparently, because of a large Catholic church nearby, the processions follow my street because it is by a park. We were told that the Italian community here have 4 fireworks displays each year. We arrived in the fall so we have not seen one yet. But they start in May, I will sure enjoy this from my balcony. In Spain, I also saw the feasts of the Cristos at the end of May with celebrations, costumes, dances, musicians playing on the street, it is quite a show.

    Italians sure are a demonstrative bunch. Right Robby?

    Eloïse

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 3, 2004 - 08:14 am
    I think Italians are great, so much more colorful than the bland English stock I come from. I'll never forget the Christmas celebration on Christmas Eve with my daughter-in-law's Italian-American family. There was more food on the table than an army could eat, from all kinds of fish to pasta to salads and bread and cakes, and there were more relatives than I'd seen at such a feast in my life.

    The Christmas decoration in that Brooklyn neighborhood were better than Macy's store windows with all kinds of lights and displays of animated animals and figures and music. My son Christopher told me the most extraordinary and extravagant ones I saw were at a house owned by a Mafia family. Big, big competition there as far as decorations were concerned.

    It was loads of fun for this WASP New England Yankee who came from a place where a single candle burning in a few windows, a lighted Christmas tree, and the same old turkey dinner were what we had year after year.

    Mal

    Scrawler
    April 3, 2004 - 10:25 am
    My family consists of: Greeks, Irish, Cajun, and French so you can imagine just what feasts we had. The Greeks don't celebrate birthdays, but rather the feast days on which the saint you were named after. The Irish and Cajun would have a celebration at any time and anywhere. When I married my English husband, that was the one of the things I missed from my childhood. There was always music, dancing, and lots of food. Especially at Easter I remember coming home from school and watching my aunts cook all the wonderful dishes that would be served on Easter Sunday. After days of fasting during Lent my stomach would growl just thinking about food.

    Justin
    April 3, 2004 - 11:33 am
    When I was a boy I lived in a town with a large Italian population. The Church in the community was called Saint Anne's and on Saint Anne's feast day the entire community took to the streets for dancing, strolling,and eating at many sidewalk stands. Late in the day a statue of St. Anne appeared at the doors of the church carried on the shoulders of young men. As she was carried through the streets people attached money to her gown. When night fell music and dance took the stage from the street vendors and by midnight the streets were empty.

    I delivered newspapers in that community going up and down the stairs of tenements. I will never forget the wonderful smells of sauces cooking. Each tenement floor renewed the odor of Italian garlic and tomatoes simmering on a coal stove.

    JoanK
    April 3, 2004 - 12:17 pm
    My father was Italian, but it was my wasp mother that did the cooking and celebrations. So I missed all that. But I still remember the feast an Italian aunt put on for my Jewish husband and me when we visited. She said -- they were not Italian anymore, they were American. They only ate pasta 4 or 5 times a week.

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 3, 2004 - 12:23 pm
    Are present day Italians direct descendants of the Ancient Romans? Click HERE for some interesting comments on that subject.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 3, 2004 - 02:51 pm
    "Through emphasis on acting and scenery rather than plot or thought, the drama gradually yielded the stage to mimes and pantomimes. The mime contained little dialogue, chose its themes from lowly life, and relied on character sketches presented with skillful mimicry.

    "Freedom of speech, having disappeared from the assemblies and the Forum, survived for a moment in these brief farces, when a mime would risk his head to earn applause by a double-entendre aimed at an emperor or his favorites.

    "Caligula had an actor burned alive in the amphitheater for such an allusion. On the day when the parsimonious Vespasian was buried a mime imitated the obsequies. During the procession the corpse sat up and asked how much this funeral was costing the state. 'Ten million sesterces,' was the answer. Said the imperial cadaver, 'Give me 100,000 and throw me into the Tiber.

    "The mime alone admitted women as actors. As these were thereby automatically classed as prostitutes, they had nothing to lose by obscenity. On special occasions like the Floralia the audience called upon these performers to remove every garment.

    "Both sexes attended these performances, as in our time. Cicero found brides there, and they found him."

    Could the current TV Late Shows when they comment on public figures be a descendant of those ancient farces?

    Robby

    Justin
    April 3, 2004 - 04:09 pm
    Here we have the predecessor of Janet Jackson. Of course Janet's exposure was unintended (as she said) and the audience applauded. The Roman folks (gals and guys) responded to an audience request for nudity. The Roman audience then applauded. For some reason audiences seem to enjoy nudity. I'm thinking of the success of such people as Gypsy Rose Lee and Margie Hart as well as the current interest in guy strippers.

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 3, 2004 - 05:09 pm
    Gypsy Rose Lee and Margie Hart! You really are dating yourself, Justin. I would place an even bet that most people under 50 never heard of them.

    Robby

    Justin
    April 3, 2004 - 05:43 pm
    What can I say, Robby? I'm a man of my times. Margie Hart was the object of nights of reckless abandon in my misspent youth.

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 4, 2004 - 06:08 am
    I had the pleasure of seeing her -- in the flesh, so to speak - at burlesque houses on 42nd Street in NYC. There are all forms of education. Now back to our current method.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 4, 2004 - 06:19 am
    "Audiences divided into frantic cliques and claques in support of rival favorites. Women of high station fell in love with the actors, and pursued them with gifts and embraces, until one literally lost his head over Domitian's wife. The pantomime gradually drove all rivals but the mime from the Roman stage. The drama succumbed to the ballet.

    "Such a triumph was made possible by the high development of music and the dance. Under the Republic dancing had been looked upon as disgraceful. The younger Scipio had compelled the closing of schools that taught music and dancing, and Cicero had remarked that 'only a lunatic would dance when sober.'

    "But the pantomimes made dancing a fashion, then a passion. Nearly every private home, says Seneca, had a dancing platform, echoing to the feet of men and women. Rich households now had a dancing master, as well as a chef and a philosopher, as part of their equipment. As practiced in Rome the dance involved the rhythmical movement of the hands and the upper body even more than of legs and feet.

    "Women cultivated the art not only for its own attractiveness, but because it gave them flexibility and grace."

    Imagine - Rome had "groupies!" But that only after a puritanical period (shades of Victorian beliefs). And finally dancing similar to what I believe is the Hawaiian approach to dancing.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 4, 2004 - 07:53 am
    Daily Life in Ancient Rome - From breakfast to bedtime with everything in between, including dancing

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 4, 2004 - 07:56 am
    A very complete link, Mal!

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 4, 2004 - 07:58 am
    ROBBY, be sure to read the story about Rome by Thomas, a Maryland sixth grader, near the bottom of the page.

    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 4, 2004 - 08:03 am
    Picture:- Roman Lyre Player

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 4, 2004 - 08:51 am
    Roman Musical Instruments. Click the name of the instrument to see more

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    April 4, 2004 - 08:58 am
    Last night our PBS showed Anthony and Cleopatra and I accidentelly caught it. WOW it was so grand and it has a different meaning now that I have studied about the Roman era.

    Mal I read Thomas's wonderful piece, he reminds me of my 11 year old grandson Anthony.

    Eloïse

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 4, 2004 - 09:17 am
    Ancient Instrumental Music. Turn your sound on, and click the links to hear the scales.

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 4, 2004 - 11:33 am
    "The Romans loved music only less than power, money, women, and blood. Like nearly everything else in Rome's cultural life, her music came from Greece and had to fight its way against a conservatism that identified art with degeneration.

    "Finally the rich and sensuous Greek modes and instruments won the day over Roman awkwardness and simplicity, and music became a regular element in the education of women, and frequently of men. By A.D. 50 it had captured all classes and sexes. Men as well as women spent whole days in hearing, composing, or singing airs. At last even emperors climbed and descended scales, and the philosophic Hadrian, as well as the effeminate Nero, was proud of his skill on the lyre.

    "The basic instruments were the flute and the lyre. Our wind and string orchestras are still variations of these forms. The most heroic symphony is a judicious combination of puffing, plucking, scraping, and beating. The flute accompanied drama and was supposed to arouse emotion. The lyre attended song and was expected to elevate the soul.

    "Formal concerts were given, and musical contests played a part in some public games. Even modest dinners requird a bit of music. Martial promises his guest at least a flute player. As for Trimalchio's feast, the tables are wiped in rhythm with song. Caligula had an orchestra and a chorus on his pleasure boat.

    "At the pantomimes symphoniae were performed -- i.e. a chorus sang and danced to the accompaniment of an orchestra. Sometimes the actor would sing the solo parts, sometimes a professional singer (cantor) sang the words while the actor gestured or danced. The orchestra was led by flutes, aided by lyres, cymbals, pipes, trumpets, 'syringes,' and scabella -- boards fastened to the players' feet and capable of producing a pandemonium even more frightful than that of a modern orchestra at the height of its powers. Seneca mentions harmony in the playing of individuals, but there is no sign tht ancient orchestras used harmony contrapuntally.

    "The accompaniment was usually on a higher note than the song, but it did not, so far as we know, pursue a distinct sequence."

    I find it interesting that orchestras did not use harmony. I would have thought that it would have been present in that stage of Civilization.

    Robby

    tooki
    April 4, 2004 - 01:29 pm
    I thought the various discussions of who were the Romans was fascinating.

    None, however, addressed the "Patrician" question. What with the great emphasis the Patricians placed on ancestry, linage, and names indicating their status, I think they would have kept written records tracing who they were.

    I don't disagree with the melting pot view of Europeans, I just think some of those old Italian families are able to trace back further than the 9th century, when records started according to one correspondent.

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 4, 2004 - 01:51 pm
    Tooki, it's only recently that I've come to realize that there is a descendancy from the Roman Emperors to the line of Popes. I would think there would be records there somewhere.

    Robby

    Justin
    April 4, 2004 - 02:02 pm
    Robby; I don't understand your message. There is no descendancy that I can think of between the papacy and the Holy Roman emperors. Each has a descendancy record that might independently shed light on the composition of Europeans. You may remember that the Popes were French during the Babylonian exile.

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 4, 2004 - 02:09 pm
    Justin, a couple of months ago I gave a NY Times link of an article by an Italian being upset because of the possibility of another Pope who was not Italian. He indicated the line of descendancy from Roman emperors. That made me a think a bit. If I can locate that article, I will give a link.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 4, 2004 - 02:16 pm
    I can no longer pull up the entire article without paying for it. Here is the SUMMARY of the article published on Jan. 11 and which I gave the link here. Maybe someone can check out the SofC Outline and find the link. I don't have time for that.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 4, 2004 - 02:30 pm
    For a moment I thought I could fool the NY Times by going back in the Outline to January 11 when I furnished the link. I clicked onto the link and, guess what, I could only pull up the same Abstract. No fools -- they!! You get it for a week or so free, and then ..... Following is what I posted that day.



    I am posting this LINK to a column in today's NY Times but although it discusses Christianity and the Pope, I urge you not to move onto that subject. Durant will give us plenty of opportunity for that later on.



    Why, then, do I post this link? Because the author, an Italian passionate on this subject, emphasizes that "Italians are an ancient tested bridge between past and future" and that, in his opinion, "the archetype from which the pope descends is that of the imperial Caesar." We can, at a later date, discuss whether we believe this to be so or not but the point is that the Roman Empire is not dead in the minds of millions of people. He weeps that his country has "lost its last universal sign of power" which descended "from the emperors."



    We are only on Page 204 in a volume of over 650 pages. We have much to learn about this new Roman Empire just coming into being -- this empire which apparently is still having a strong effect around the world 2,000 years later.

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 5, 2004 - 05:09 am
    Next year HBO will present 12 one-hour programs about ANCIENT ROME. Those here who watch HBO might be interested in this article about how it is being prepared.

    Robby

    tooki
    April 5, 2004 - 05:57 am
    Cool! I hope we're finished with the book by then. Since Durant sort of skirts discussion of "Roman white trash," it will be interesting to see HBO's take on it. Should that be "them."

    JoanK
    April 5, 2004 - 08:16 am
    I'll miss ancient Rome while I'm on vacation the next two weeks. But I'll be back.

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 5, 2004 - 11:22 am
    Tooki:-we most certainly will have finished the book before 2005. In fact, long before that. By then we will be in the third volume, "The Age of Faith."

    JoanK:-Enjoy your vacation! In two weeks we will probably be at the section examining Italy.

    Robby

    tooki
    April 5, 2004 - 11:42 am
    I know when we'll be done.

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 5, 2004 - 11:58 am
    Tooki:-You caught me in a moment of being serious. I've got to do something about that!

    Robby

    Ginny
    April 5, 2004 - 01:43 pm
    My goodness, Robby, isn't that interesting, thank you so much for that, and here I am one foot on the plane for Rome! I've been reading more on it in the Guardian, it seems they give tours of that film studio outside Rome in The Cinecittà studios, built in 1937, still attracts American and European film shoots. The Centro Sperimentale Cinemagrafia located nearby offers film buffs a wide range of services.

    It seems they have built a colossal set of Ancient Rome, with the colorful painted columns and all, and will center on Caesar, just right for our September offerings of Latin 101 and Caesar's Gallic War entirely in Latin, I would kill to see it!

    I must try my best to visit this and get some photos, if they will let me in, what fun, thank you for this timely article, the entire world is finding the ancients are VERY hot: a new movie is being promoted in trailers now in the theaters on Troy, (and we're doing The Iliad here next October) we're so HOT here in the Books on SeniorNet!

    ginny

    Justin
    April 5, 2004 - 02:58 pm
    Robby; Your post 485 does not contain a link to NYT article.

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 5, 2004 - 03:05 pm
    Link to NY Times article about HBO and Rome

    Justin
    April 5, 2004 - 04:53 pm
    Mal; I don't think that's the article Robby had in mind in 485.

    Justin
    April 5, 2004 - 04:56 pm
    Peter Jennings is doing a three hour tv treatment tonight on Paul the Tarsan.

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 5, 2004 - 05:07 pm
    "Now that war seemed banished, the great games were the most exciting event of the Roman year. They took place chiefly in celebration of religious festivals -- of the Great Mother, of Ceres, of Flora, of Apollo, of Augustus. They might be the 'Plebeian Games' to appease the plebs, or 'Roman Games' in honor of the city and its goddess Roma. They might be offered in connection with triumphs, candidacies, elections, or imperial birthdays. They might, like the ludi saeculares, commemorate some cycle in Roman history.

    "Like the games of Achilles in honor of Patroclus, those of Italy had originally been offered as a sacrifice to dead men. At the funeral of Brutus Pera in 264 B.C. his sons gave a 'spectacle' of three duels. At the funeral of Marcus Lepidus in 216 B.C. twenty-two combats were fought. And in 174 B.C. Tirus Flaminius celebrated his father's death with gladiatorial games in which seventy-four men fought.

    "The simplest public games were athletic contests, usually held in a stadium. The performers, mostly professionals and aliens, ran foot races, threw the discus, wrestled, and boxed. The Roman public, accustomed to sanguinary gladiatorial exhibitions, only mildly favored athletics, but relished the prize fights in which massive Greeks fought almost to the death with gloves reinforced at the knuckles with an iron band three quarters of an inch thick."

    The Romans took a break from killing on the battlefield to relaxing by killing in the stadium.

    Robby

    Justin
    April 5, 2004 - 07:31 pm
    Romans found pleasure and perhaps, satisfaction and accomplishment, vicariously by watching human blood sports.We seem little different today? The Passion of Christ is a movie in which people can watch a man being beaten. The blood spatters and bits of flesh appear to fly out into the audience as a variety of whips are used to flay the man. Attendance has not been lacking. It is a popular movie. Some attend for religious reasons. Others attend to be spattered with blood.

    It is not so many years since John L Sullivan fought for seventy-five rounds with bare knuckles. A recent movie called Hard Times dealt with street fighting. Boxing is a popular sport. Hemingway played sparring partner to all comers in Paris gyms to get the feel of manliness.

    How does psychology deal with this characteristic?

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 5, 2004 - 08:12 pm
    I have just had the most amazing three hours! At 8:15 p.m. I decided I'd relax a bit in front of the TV. I was on NBC, saw that the Fear Factor was on, and decided I didn't want to see that so moved to ABC. Peter Jennings was hosting and narrating about Jesus so I stayed a bit to watch. It was fascinating! I suddenly realized that I was seeing the presentation that Justin had mentioned. The title is "Jesus and Paul: The word and the witness."

    After spending these years in Story of Civilization, so much of what I saw in those three hours was so meaningful. There was a lot about the Roman Empire. I usually get tired about 10 p.m. I forced myself to stay up until 11 p.m. and enjoyed every bit of it.

    We all know here that not too long from now in "Caesar and Christ" we will be getting to the start of Christianity. That is exactly what this program was about. That is where Paul comes into the picture. It will probably be a couple of weeks more before we get into that phase of our current volume. I recommend strongly that you all see this program and then compare it with what Durant will tell us. It can probably be obtained on video or DVD.

    Give yourself a treat. It is not a "religious" presentation -- it is historical and Peter Jennings is his usual self.

    Robby

    tooki
    April 5, 2004 - 08:42 pm
    We have looked at this sculpture before, maybe even in "The Life of Greece." I bring it up again because of Justin's discussion of "blood lust."

    I think of the blood lusting not as something psychology has anything to say about, although it might, but rather as the continuing saga of man's inhumanity to man. The reasons for this apparent inhumanity must have deep evolutionary roots.

    I was first introducted to "The Boxer" as the "Blind Gladiator." In my view the man is blind. He stares abstractedly over his shoulder and seems beaten into submission, is spite of his massive frame. This sculpture speaks to me of brutality, inhumanity, and cruelty. It is a wonderful and frightening reminder of man's inhumanity, if one needs one.

    Here is the BLIND GLADIATOR

    Justin
    April 5, 2004 - 11:43 pm
    I agree, Tooki. The Boxer, is one of Helenisms greatest contributions to art. It is certainly an expression of brutality and the inhumanity of man. It reminds me of the story of Thais. That and the Boxer are stories of a beautiful human destroyed by man's inhumanity.

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 6, 2004 - 04:46 am
    "Still more exciting were the races at the Circus Maximus. On two successive days forty-four races were run, some of horses and jockeys, some of light two-wheeled chariots drawn by two, three, or four horses abreast. The cost was met by rival stables owned by rich men. The jockeys, drivers, and chariots of each stable were costumed or painted in distinctive colors -- white green, red, or blue. All Rome, as the time for these contests approached, divided into factions named from these colors, and particularly the red and the green.

    "At home, in school, at lectures, in the forums, half the talk was about favorite jockeys and charioteers. Their pictures were everywhere, their victories were announced in the Acta Diurna. Some of them made great fortunes, some had statues raised to them in public squares.

    "On the appointed day 180,000 men and women moved in festive colors to the enormous hippodrome. Enthusiasm rose to a mania. Excited partisans smelled the dung of the animals to assure themselves that the horses of their favorite drivers had been properly fed. The spectators passed by the shops and brothels that lined the outer walls. They filed through hundreds of entrances and sorted themselves with the sweat of anxiety into the great horseshoe of seats.

    "Vendors sold them cushions, for the seats were mostly of hard wood, and the program would last all day. Senators and other dignitaries had special seats of marble, ornamented with bronze. Behind the imperial box was a suite of luxurious rooms, where the emperor and his family might eat, drink, rest, bathe, and sleep. Gambling was feverish, and fortunes passed from hand to hand as the day advanced.

    "From openings under the stands emerged the horses, the jockeys and drivers, and the chariots, and each faction shook the stands with applause as its favorite color appeared. The charioteers, mostly slaves, wore bright tunics and shining helmets. In one hand was a whip, and in their belts a knife to cut, in accident, the traces tied to their waits.

    "Along the middle of the elliptical area ran the spina ('thorn,' 'spine'), an island a thousand feet long, adorned with statues and obelisks. At one end were the metae ('measures'), circular pillars that served as goals. The usual length of a chariot race was seven circuits, about five miles. The test of skill lay in making the turns at the goals as swiftly and sharply as safety would allow. Collisions were frequent there, and men, chariots, and animals mingled in fascinating tragedy. As the horses or chariots clattered to the final post the hypnotized audience rose like a swelling sea, gesticulatd, waved handkershiefs, shouted and prayed, groaned and cursed, or exulted in almost supernatural ecstasy.

    "The applause that greeted the winner could be heard far beyond the limits of the city."

    Nascar, anyone? Or maybe Belmont?

    Robby

    tooki
    April 6, 2004 - 06:46 am
    Send this passage to HBO immediately! It will be wonderfully incorporated into their coming 12 week series, "Rome, As I Knew and Loved Her."

    The Jockeys: "...their pictures were everywhere." Like, who drew them and everything? Someone, somewhere was making a profit.

    And finally, "cut the traces tied to their waits." I think I know what traces are, but I don't know what a "wait" is.

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 6, 2004 - 11:01 am
    A "wait" is something that gets bigger and bigger as you age.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 6, 2004 - 11:08 am
    Here is one of the best articles I have ever read about AMERICA. It is a rather long article but the deeper I got into it, the more I thought about the Roman Empire.

    What do you think?

    Robby

    Justin
    April 6, 2004 - 12:16 pm
    Brooks and De Toqueville, Rome and America, discombobulated and irresistable, but the best of breed in their own eras. Brooks is a rare breed of conservative- one with a brain and some discretionary powers.

    Scrawler
    April 6, 2004 - 01:03 pm
    Why humans watch violence?

    Learned experience is an important determinant of aggressive behavior in humans. Aggressive actions are often followed by rewards and are therefore likely to be repeated. The influence of the mass media, especially television, on promoting aggressive behavior is not yet well understood, but a growing body of reserch evidence indicates that watching violent entertainment is linked to subsequent aggression.

    I guess that's why they call it March-Madness. I wonder where that puts me after watching 64 college basketball games ( or was that 32 - I lost count) and I have the hockey and pro basketball playoffs yet to go!

    At any rate the Romans without any wars probably had to let their learned aggressive skills out some place. I guess watching Christians being eaten by lions or gladiators fighting to the death was as good as place as any - remember they hadn't invented football or hockey yet.

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 6, 2004 - 02:20 pm
    It's Passover, and I thought you'd like to see how Bubble and her family celebrate with the traditional lamb seder meal and saying the Hagadah.

    Bubble and her family

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 6, 2004 - 05:21 pm
    Thank you so much, Mal, for showing us those warm close photos of our good friend Bubble and her family. All the best to them!!

    We are still looking forward to meeting Bubble face to face at the Virginia Bash in May.

    Robby

    Justin
    April 6, 2004 - 05:26 pm
    The Mogen David as well as the lamb has been sacrificed to the memory of the escape from Egypt. Blood on the door post and death of the first born are all part of this memory. I wonder if the holocaust is included in the Jewish religious calendar some where. Passover celebrates escape, holocaust recognizes a tragic event that came to an end. Both events are significant in Jewish life.

    Justin
    April 6, 2004 - 05:30 pm
    It was nice to see pictures of Bubble and her family. I hope they are all safe in Netanya.

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 6, 2004 - 06:49 pm
    In the article to which I linked in Post 505, here are some phrases about America which made me think of Ancient Rome:-

    inability of many Americans to sit still -- hardest-working people on earth -- uproot their families -- imaginative fire that animates Americans and propels them to work hard

    move so much -- leap so wantonly -- a nation formed by collective fantasy -- material things are shot through with enchantment -- through the temporary hardships they dwell imaginatively in the grandeur that inevitably marks their future -- people leap before they really look -- drawn to places where there is no history

    imagination tricks them into undertaking grand projects -- necessary exertions bring out new skills and abilities -- tendency to see the present from the vantage point of the future -- sense that some ultimate fulfillment will be realized here -- roaring into battle with visions of progressive virtue on their side

    inspired by opportunity -- nurtured in imagination -- just beyond the next ridge happiness can be realized -- wreck their families and move on -- heedless of the past -- disrespectful toward traditions -- wasteful in use of things around them -- impious toward restraints -- consumed by hope -- driven ineluctably to improve -- fervently optimistic -- relentlessly aspiring -- locomotive of the world.

    Is America the Roman Empire of the 21st Century?

    Robby

    tooki
    April 6, 2004 - 09:07 pm
    I found the listing of the elements of various lifestyles charming and informative. (However, although I shop at Trader Joes, I wouldn't be caught dead in a Volvo.)

    He has taken many aspects of American life usually viewed negatively and given them a clever spin. All in all I find his views marvelously hopeful, positive, and I now believe in "ultimate fullfillment."

    He left out that changing identity in America is easy. One merely changes one's outlook by changing what you consume, live in and with, and drive. Now, if I shopped at a Kroger's, drove a pickup, and wore tight clothes I would be someone else, wouldn't I?

    I doubt whether it was that easy to change identity in ancient Rome.

    Justin
    April 6, 2004 - 10:21 pm
    Thelma and Louise did it in one automobile trip of about 1000 miles.

    Scrawler
    April 7, 2004 - 11:07 am
    Is America the Roman Empire of the 21st Century?

    If we are heedless of the past - disrespectful toward tradition.

    Roaring into battle with visions of progressive virue on their side.

    If we are the Roman Empire of the 21st Century - what does that say about us? Does it say that civilization really hasn't changed since the Romans? If we heed nothing from the past can our future be any different than the Romans? Are we as a species destined to continue to go around and around with nothing to break the circle? What do you think it will take to create a new future or is it to late?

    Justin
    April 7, 2004 - 04:01 pm
    There is only one way to stop citizens acting like Romans. Focus on history, language, manners, and mathematics, in education from Kindergarten through high school. Learn well the lessons of the past. Remain strong and vigilant as a country. Learn to recognize the ill equipted among those who seek to represent us and recall them if we fail to see their agressiveness before electing them. Work with other nations in a common body to provide for police protection in the world. Maybe we have to sacrifice a little sovereignty to achieve that solution.

    3kings
    April 8, 2004 - 02:25 am
    Is the US the Roman empire of the 21st century ? Well, no it isn't, and hopefully it will not descend to that abysmal level. When I remember the years 1919-21 and 1945-50, I recognize the proudest moments in the US and Western World's history.

    You approached those lofty heights again in 1961-63, but I would venture to say since 2000 you are in something of a trough. But as you are not a second Rome, there is every chance you will clamber out of your present predicament, and with the UN, give to the Middle East that same calming peace that you earlier gave to Western Europe and Japan.

    Persons everywhere outside of the US, would much rather you aimed to be the Greece of the 21st century than to emulate Rome.== Trevor

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 8, 2004 - 03:52 am
    A thoughtful comment, Trevor.

    Durant continues:-

    "Most Romans defended the gladiatorial games on the ground that the victims had been condumned to death for serious crimes, that the sufferings they endured acted as a deterrent to others, that the courage with which the doomed men were trained to face wounds and death inspired the people to Spartan virtues, and that the frequent sight of blood and battle accustomed Romans to the demands and sacrifices of war.

    "Juvenal, who denounced everything else, left the games unscathed. The younger Pliny, a highly civilized man, praised Trajan for providing spectacles that impel men 'to noble wounds and the scorn of death' and Tacitus reflected that the blood spilled in the arena was in any case vilis sanguis -- the 'cheap gore' of common men. Cicero was revolted by the slaughter. He asks:-'What entertainment can possibly arise, to a refined and humanized spirit, from seeeing a noble beast struck to the heart by its merciless hunter, or one of our own weak species cruelly mangled by an animal of far greater strength?'

    "Religion accepted the games as proper forms of religious celebration and inaugurated them with solemn processions. The Vestal Virgins and the priests occupied seats of honor in the theaters, at the circus, and before the arena. The emperor who presided was the high priest of the state religion."

    Robby

    tooki
    April 8, 2004 - 07:02 am
    Arguments given in defense of the gladiatorial games sound like arguments advanced for the death penalty. In spite of Trevor's hopeful comments, I am finding the Amerome similiarities to be too numerous to be simply coincidental. I am inclined to accept Scrawler's circular view of history.

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 8, 2004 - 07:49 am
    I think it should be recognized that there's something of the bloodthirsty beast in all of us, whether we admit it or not.

    Do you gawk when you see an accident on the road? Do you watch competitive sports on TV? Did you ever go to the Indy 500 and get all fired up when there was an accident on the track? I know I did when I lived in Indianapolis. The minute the first of May rolled around and we could hear the cars practicing on the Speedway, we all caught the fever.

    Civiized people do their killing and maiming vicariously. It was true in Rome, and it's true in our civilizations today. I don't think this says one thing or another about whether the United States is like the Roman Empire.

    Mal

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 8, 2004 - 10:55 am
    "The ancient faith was diseased at the bottom and at the top. The deification of the emperors revealed not how much the upper classes thought of their rulers, but how little they thought of their gods. Among educated men philosophy was whittling away belief even while patronizing it.

    "Lucretius had not been without effect. Men did not mention him, but merely because it was easier to prctice epicureanism than to study Epicurus or his passionate expositor. The rich youths who went to Athens, Alexandria, and Rhodes for higher education found no sustenance there for the Roman creed. Greek poets made fun of the Roman pantheon, and Roman poets leaped to imitate them. The poems of Ovid assumed that the gods were fables. The epigrams of Martial assumed that they were jokes. No one seems to have complained.

    "Many of the mimes riduculed the gods. One whipped Diana off the stage, another showed Jove making his will in expectation of death. Juvenal, like Plato five centures before him and ourselves eighteen centuries after him, noted that the fear of a watchful deity had lost its power to discourage perjury.

    "Even on the tombstones of the poor we note increasing skepticism, and some candid sensuality. Non fui, fui, non sum, non curo -- 'I was not, I was, I am not, I care not.' And another Non fueram, non sum, nescio -- 'I had not been, I am not, I know not.' And another: 'What I have eaten and drunk is my own. I have had my life.' Says one tombstone 'There is nothing beyond the grave.'

    "But doubt, however honest, cannot long take the place of belief. Amid all its pleasures this society had not found happiness. Its refinements wearied it, its debaucheries exhausted it. Rich and poor were still subject to pain and grief and death.

    "Philosophy -- least of all so coldly superior a doctrine as Stoicism -- could never give the common man a faith to grace his poverty, encourage his decency, solace his sorrows, and inspire his hopes. The old religion had fulfilled the first of these functions. It had failed in the rest.

    "Men wanted revelation, and it gave them ritual. They wanted immortality, and it gave them games. Men who had come, enslaved or free, from other states felt excluded from this nationalistic worship. Therefore they brought their own gods with them, built their own temples, praciced their own rites. In the very heart of the West they planted the religions of the East.

    "Between the creeds of the conquerors and the faith of the defeated a war took form in which the weapons of the legions were useless. The needs of the heart would determine the victory."

    Belief replaces doubt? The religious East once again conquers the unbelieving West?

    Portending our future?

    Robby

    Scrawler
    April 8, 2004 - 12:04 pm
    For me I have found more inspiration from Eastern religion than the Catholic religion of my childhood. This is one of my favorite prayers:

    We live in illusion

    And the apperance of things.

    There is a reality.

    We are that reality.

    When you understand this,

    You see that you are nothing.

    And being nothing.

    You are everything.

    That is all.

    ~ Kalu Rinpoche

    Justin
    April 8, 2004 - 02:01 pm
    I understand that we live in illusion and that we are the only reality. But how that makes us nothing and how nothing becomes everything eludes me. Can you explain any of this poem's message?

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 9, 2004 - 03:52 am
    Roman Law

    146 B.C. - A.D. 192

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 9, 2004 - 04:12 am
    "Law was the most characteristic and lasting expression of the Roman spirit. As Greece stands in history for freedom, so Rome stands for order. As Greece bequeathed democracy and philosophy as the foundations of individual liberty, so Rome has left us its laws, and its traditions of administration, as the bases of social order.

    "To unite these diverse legacies, to attune their stimulating opposition into harmony, is the elemental task of statesmanship.

    "Since law is the essence of Roman history, it has been impossible to keep them separate, and this chapter can only be a structural and synoptic supplement to preceding and subsequent details. The Roman constitution was like the British -- no set of permanently binding rules, but a stream of precedent giving direction without preventing change. As wealth increased, and life became more complex, new legislation issued from assemblies, Senate, magistrates, and princes. The body of the law grew as rapidly as the Empire and reached out to ever new frontiers.

    "The education of lawyers, the guidance of judges, and the protection of the citizen from illegal judgments demanded the organization and formulation of the law into some orderly and accessible form.

    "The contradictory enactments of Marius and Sulla, the unprecedented powers of Pompey, the revolutionary legislation of Caesar, and the new constitution of Augustus created fresh problems for minds that struggled to make a logic of the law. Not until the Principate had established itself, first by the use of force and then by the force of use, could the new legislation win acceptance in the minds of men as well as in the courts of power.

    "To the second and third centuries of our era belongs the honor of giving Roman law its final formulation in the West -- achievement comparable to the formulatin of science and philosophy in Greece."

    According to Durant, statesmanship combines freedom and order. Civil rights vs security? I wonder -- are we running our lives these days based on "permanently binding rules" in our Constitution or are we moving from precedent to precedent?

    I continue to be enamored by Durant's choice of words and phrases -- "use of force" and "force of use."

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 9, 2004 - 04:41 am
    Here is an example of a PRECEDENT being set.

    Robby

    tooki
    April 9, 2004 - 06:30 am
    or, The Collage of Christianity

    Even though mythology had long been an interest of mine, I failed to make important connections with Christianity. In spite of a long time acquaintance with books such as "The Hero With a Thousand Faces," and "The Eternal Return," titles which are self explanatory, and a fondness for Joseph Campbell's' four volume, hugely illustrated, work, "Historical Atlas of World Mythology," I thought somehow Christianity had sprung full grown from the head of Jesus, the disciples, and that wretched misogynist, Paul.

    Truth has now been revealed to me! In the melting pot of the Roman Empire, Rome, Christianity grew from just another Jewish messianic cult into a great religion. It is the latest reincarnation and storehouse of all the previous myths in the civilized or uncivilized world. It is a collage of all things miraculous. When a myth reached a dead end, it made the leap to Christianity and was incorporated. For example, I suppose each Christian Saint can trace his or her ancestry back to, say, Dionysus, the hearth Goddess, or whoever - at least a Roman or Greek festival day.

    There will be more about this fable building as we go, for now it is sufficient to acknowledge the creativity involved in the construction of Christianity, its longevity, and it still remaining a vigorous force in American life.

    Scrawler
    April 9, 2004 - 11:11 am
    "Law was the most characteristic and lasting expression of the Roman spirit. As Greece stands in history for freedom, so Rome stands for order. As Greece bequeathed democracy and philosophy as the foundations of individual liberty, so Rome has left us its laws and its traditions of administation, as the bases of social order."

    Ever since 9/11 I've been frustrated that we have exchanged our civil rights for security. But in this vast nation of ours how secure can we really be? Unless we want to step back a hundred + years and strap pistols to our hips and carry rifles around, I'm not sure how much security individuals can have. I realize that we must have some law and order or there will be nothing but chaos, but questions remain: How much security and law and order do we really need? At a future time will we be locked behind cement fortresses never to see the light of day?

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 9, 2004 - 03:44 pm
    TOOKI, if you read Our Oriental Heritage, Book 1 of The Story of Civiliization, or go to the Archives of book discussions in the Books and Lit folder here, you'll find many examples much earlier than Ancient Greek and Roman civilizations of what would become Christianity.

    Mal

    Justin
    April 9, 2004 - 04:01 pm
    Yes, Tooki, I agree, though Robby may say we are a little early in broaching the topic. If you were to look over the postings in this discussion from Our Oriental Heritage and Greece you would find the sources for each element of ritual and dogma that Christianity professes. We are all waiting for Robby to introduce the subject, however, when he does I fear we will not be able to keep the discussion in our own little family. All the fanatics who inhabit other religious discussions with their cliches and out of context biblical quotes will invade us. I hope that among ourselves we are able to maintain a rational view of the topic. I also hope to avoid hurting people who have not recognized the heavy influence of mythology in Christianity.

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 9, 2004 - 04:55 pm
    Like Tooki, I did not realize how Christianity was the descendant of many much earlier cultures. And, like many of you here, I am anxious to get to the birth of Christianity. I am rushing along toward that section as rapidly as possible but don't think it would be fair to Durant and to ourselves to eliminate entire chapters of his volume. I do bypass many paragraphs or sections, however, in such a manner that it does not disturb Durant's theme.

    Regarding "fanatics in religious discussions," I have already been planning ahead for that. I would like to enlarge our discussion at that period by "advertising" our discussion of Christianity. In a sense, they are entitled to have the opportunity to look at it in a historical manner. However, I am not naive and have seen some of those discussions in action.

    About three weeks ago I emailed Marcie and asked her opinion. My thought was to invite them but to keep a tight rein and have some deleted if necessary. She advised against it. I still have the desire to give them the opportunity.

    What do the rest of you think?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 9, 2004 - 05:38 pm
    "As the terminology of science and philosophy comes mostly from the Greek, betraying their source, so the language of the law comes mostly from the Latin. Law in general was ius, justice or right. Lex meant a specific law. (French droit and loi, German Recht and Gesetz.)

    "Jurisprudence -- wisdom in the law -- was defined in the Digest of Justinian (A.D. 533) as both a science and an art. The 'science of the just and the unjust,' and the 'art (i.e. administration) of the good and the equitable.'

    "Ius included unwritten law, or custom, as well as written law. The latter was composed of ius civile -- the 'law of (Roman) citizens' -- and ius gentium -- 'the law of the nations.'

    "Civil law was 'public law' when it related to the state or the official worship, and 'private law' when it dealt with the legal interrelations of the citizens.

    "Roman law as a whole flowed from five sources.

    FIRST - Under the Republic the ultimate source of law was the will of the citizens, expressed as leges in the Curial and Centurial Assemblies, and as plebiscita ('decided by the plebs') in the Tribal Assembly. The Senate acknowledged leges only when they had been proposed to the assemblies with the proper formalities and by a magistrate of Senatorial rank. When Senate and assembly agreed in passing a measure, it was proclaimed in the name of Senatus Populusque Romanus."

    "The ultimate source of law was the will of the citizens." Isn't that Democracy?

    Robby

    Justin
    April 9, 2004 - 07:33 pm
    I don't agree that we should advertise. This discussion is not a religious discussion. It is a discussion of history by people interested in history. The religious fanatics will invade us whether we invite them or not. I see no reason to solicit them for no other reason than to make them aware of the historical millieu in which Christianity lives. That smacks of proselytizing. Moreover, their treatment of the subject often develops in an aggressive manner and without rational content. I have no wish to share the knowledge we have acquired with people whose single source fanatically drives their contributions to the discussion. I am not sure how we can control that, but I'd like this to continue to be a discussion among people interested in history and not in religion exclusively.

    tooki
    April 9, 2004 - 08:19 pm
    probably not too far from the tree. It's been a long time since I've argued "proofs for the existence of God," and I don't think I want to play that ring around the rosie again, so I would likely merely address historical points put forward by Durant. I.e., I would not respond to non rational postings. However, I have confidence in Robby's judgement, and would follow his lead.

    tooki
    April 9, 2004 - 08:26 pm
    to justify God's ways to man.

    Durants says, "The Roman constitution was like the British - no set of permanently binding rules, but a stream of precedent giving direction without preventing change."

    Shouldn't that be the other way around? Didn't the British have the precedent of Roman law during the years of their occupation by the Romans? Wouldn't they have based their "Magna Charter," on Roman rules? So what volume will that be covered in. OK to sneak a peek ahead or do I just have to wait?

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 9, 2004 - 09:40 pm
    TOOKI, the only one you'd have to argue that with is me. The people we're talking about proselytize their own particular form of Christianity.

    I remember another of ROBBY's discussions when a person of this type came in and preached to us. I think it must be very hard on a discussion leader. It was hard on many of the participants then.

    It's ROBBY's choice. We could give it a try, I suppose. What I'm interested in is not religion but history.

    Mal

    JoanK
    April 9, 2004 - 10:49 pm
    Hi. Dropping in from California, where I'm vacationing.

    " Didn't the British have the precedent of Roman law during the years of their occupation by the Romans? "

    In ghandi's autobiography he described his education as a lawyer in England. He didn't have to take courses, just pass two exams. One of them was Roman Law.

    JoanK
    April 9, 2004 - 10:53 pm
    I don't like the idea of advertising the discussion. In a way, it is false advertising, as people will probably assume something different from what we intend. But I'll follow robby's lead.

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 10, 2004 - 03:46 am
    OK - I hear the consensus. I'll not go out of my way to "advertise." As members of Books & Literature, you are all acquainted with BookBytes, edited by Pat Westerdale, which we all receive each month and in which I have been telling people who we are and what we are discussing.

    When we get to that point, I will of course point out that we are talking about what Durant calls "The Youth of Christianity." That goes only to B&L people and people in other forums will not see it. If others hear about it, visit us and cause a problem, I will handle that one situation at a time. I don't see where we will have a major problem.

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 10, 2004 - 03:59 am
    Durant said that "Roman law as a whole flowed from five sources."In Post 532 we saw the FIRST source. Now he cites the SECOND.

    "The Senate itself, in theory, had no lawmaking power under the Republic. Its senatusconsulta were, formally, recommendations to the magistrates. Gradually they became directives, then imperatives, until in the later Republic and under the Empire they took on the force of laws.

    "Altogether the laws passed by the assemblies or the Senate were so few in the course of six centuries as to astonish one accustomed to the legislative flux of modern states."

    I have noticed that in our time that both the executive and legislative branches of our government have complained of the over-reaching by the other branch. I imagine that our Founders, wise students that they were, had read Roman law and took the above into consideration when they formed our government.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 10, 2004 - 05:58 am
    Here is a LINK to a rather detailed but most interesting article by a professor at Yeshiva University. She points out that, despite what is often stated in news article, there is not that much connection between American Law and the Ten Commandments -- that, in fact, Roman Law is the basis.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 10, 2004 - 06:03 am
    Here is a TIMELINE showing the effect of Roman Law on American Law.

    Robby

    tooki
    April 10, 2004 - 06:51 am
    Not an easy distinction. I snuck into "The Age of Faith," (what fun awaits us there!), felt like I was trespassing, then rummaged around a bit on the web, which is fair game, is it not?

    As Durant notes, very basically law is composed of unwritten law, or custom and written law, or civic. We will hear about (in excruciating detail) Justinian's "Digest," which is apparently also know as "Corpus Juris Civilis," in the "Age of Faith."

    Knowing that Roman law formed the basis for the feudal states that emerged after the Roman Empire withered away momentarily satiates my curiosity. This withered away Roman law took different forms in each emerging country as they built the legal basis for their existence. And, in England a faith in common law seems to have been imposed on the remnants of Roman law. This is important because it says something about American law, which is then both Roman and British.

    Addendum: The Ten Commandments are an example of common law becoming codified by authority, i.e., Moses. I'll come back and read the link, Robby. Gotta go run now.

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 10, 2004 - 07:28 am
    Tooki:-YOU CHEATED! YOU CHEATED! We're still supposed to be "faithless." (I have peeked too but I am the DL and am supposed to have special privileges.)

    I would hope -- this will never happen of course -- that high schools would teach the basics of American Law so we could all grow up to understand how we live within the framework of the law. Sometimes when I indulge myself in watching Judge Judy, I am appalled at the lack of understanding of the law by the plaintiffs or dependents. They keep coming back to "he was not fair" or "she promised me" and not understanding the "rigidity" of the law.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 10, 2004 - 08:09 am
    THIRD SOURCE

    "The need for minor or more specific laws was met by the edicta of the municipal officials. Each new urban praetor (our 'chief city magistrate') issued an edictum praetorium, announced by a herald in the Forum and inscibed upon a wall, and stating the legal principles on which the praetor proposed to act and judge during his year's term. Similar edicts could be put forth by circuit judges (praetores peregrini) and provincial praetors.

    "Through their power of imperium, or rule, the praetors were allowed not only to interpret existing laws, but to make new ones. In this way Roman law combined the stability of its basic legislation with the flexibility of praetorian judgments. When a law or clause was carried down from one praetorian edict to the next for many years, it became a definite part of the ius honorarium. By the time of Cicero this 'law of the offices' had displaced the Twelve Tables as the main text of legal instruction in Rome.

    "Nevertheless, a praetor often reversed the decisions, and sometimes contradicted the principles, of a predecessor, so that uncertainties of law and arbirariness of judgment were added to the abuses natural in every judicial system operated by men. It was to end this uncertainty that Hadrian instructed Julianus to unify all preceding ius honorarium in a Perpetual Edict alterable only by the emperor."

    "Roman Law combined the stability of its basic legislation with the flexibility of praetorian judgments." Could we say that was similar to the stability of law created by our Congress combined with the flexibility of judgments by the Supreme Court? And could we say that their Perpetual Edict was a predecessor of our Constitution?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 10, 2004 - 03:16 pm
    I found exceedingly interesting Marci Hamilton's comment that the first four commandments of the Ten Commandments would be found unconstitutional.

    Robby

    Justin
    April 10, 2004 - 05:34 pm
    So too would several of the others be found unconstitutional. Even the dictum "thou shalt not kill" has it's modifiers in American law. Moreover, Societies long before that of Moses adopted similar laws. Dictums against lying, and coveting, find their way into our laws only with considerable modification. Lying is ok except under oath.Coveting is ok, except when it results in rape, and then it is rape that is criminal.

    Justin
    April 10, 2004 - 05:46 pm
    There is a group of Christians in the US exemplfied by Robertson and Falwell who consider the US a Christian country and who support every effort to interpret our laws as Christian laws. These people were here and active in the Constitutional Convention. The Federalist papers give testimony to their presence and to their rejection. Their efforts continue in support for school prayer, "under God" in the pledge, and benedictions in the opening of Congress and the Courts. Even our money bears the stamp of their influence.

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 11, 2004 - 05:01 am
    An idle Sunday morning thought --

    Wouldn't it be wonderful if sometime in the not-too-distant future, those of us who are active in The Story of Civilization would get together for a Senior Net Bash and have a stimulating week-end discussing the many things we have learned?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 11, 2004 - 05:31 am
    There was a time when I was still a soldier overseas that I considered entering International Law. Life took me in another direction but Law still fascinates me. I printed out from the link above the article entitled "Roots of American Law" and have read it in detail. My having joined all of you in reading Durant's "story" helped me to better understand this article and to see the reason for the sculptures on the Supreme Court building in Washington.

    Adolph Weinman, the sculptor, chose a procession of "great lawgivers of history" from many civilizations, to portray the development of secular law. Consider the south wall frieze on which are depicted Menes, Hammurabi, Moses, Solomon,Lycurgus, Solon, Drace, Confucius, and Augustus. On the north wall he depicted Justinian, Mohammed, Charlemagne, King John, Louis IX, Grotius, Blackstone, John Marshall, and Napoleon.

    John Marshall lived just a half hour or so from where I live. His statue is on our Main Street and I pass him almost daily without looking, somewhat like the New York City resident who has never visited the Statue of Liberty.

    On the frieze located directly above the Supreme Court bench are figures and tablets representing "Majesty of Law," "Power of Government," "Wisdom," "Justice," "Safeguard of the Liberties and Rights of the People in their pursuit of Happiness," and "The Defense of Human Rights and Protection of Innocence."

    Directly opposite the Bench is good versus evil depicted by "Justice," "Divine Inspiration," Truth," "Wisdom," "Defense of Virtue," "Charity," "Peace," "Harmony," and "Security" as compared to "Corruption," "Slander," "Deception, and "Despotic Power."

    I just thought that, like myself, these personages and concepts might be more meaningful to you folks after our voyage through so many Civilizations.

    Robby

    tooki
    April 11, 2004 - 06:48 am
    What a charming tour through and around the Supreme Court Building, along with your other early Sunday morning reflections, Robby.

    Among my duties as a Reference Librarian at Washington State University Library (that's in Pullman, WA, not Seattle) was being the "Law Librarian." As the respected and exalted Law Librarian in a University that had no law school, I was entirely auto didacticized. (Someone had to do it as legal issues in various fields began multiplying.) I assisted graduate students and faculty with law requirements in fields such as environment, constitutional, and business law. I had the usual self-taught depth in certain areas, missing certain essentials in others.

    One of my missing links has just been found due to my participation in this group.

    Over those many years of assisting in legal research, one of the indispensable tools was this monstrous set of books; I think there were like 76, called "Corpus Juris Secundus." It's like an encyclopedia and is still a bigee in the field; there are descriptions of it on the web. I always figured it was called "Secundus" because there was an old first edition, an early set done in about 1900 which was simply no longer used.

    Now I know! How could I have been so blind? All along it was homage to Justianian's "Corpus Juris Civilis." I can rest in peace.

    Justianian lives!

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 11, 2004 - 06:51 am
    Tooki:-Please don't RIP.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 11, 2004 - 07:15 am
    Did you see this?
    Oldest pet cat?

    tooki
    April 11, 2004 - 01:12 pm
    I hope spring is everywhere on the east Coast, Mal is enjoying the sun on her deck, and Robby didn't stumble and fall on his morning walk, what with gawking at the tulips and such.

    Here in Portland "the world is mud luscious and puddle wonderful, and the little lame balloon man whistles far and wee." Did e.e. cummings know when he wrote that poem that the little, lame balloon man is the Great God Pan? And the whistles are the Pan Pipes.

    The Azaleas, Dog Woods, and Cherry blossoms are all eye candy, competing for attention.

    Boy, what a day for a resurrection!

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 11, 2004 - 01:19 pm
    It's a little slow in this forum probably because it is Sunday, Easter, and Springtime all at once. But Civilization moves on and we'll be together again.

    I didn't stumble on my walk because it is raining in torrents and "discretion is the better part of valor." But the grass is coming up like mad! My Forsythias are shouting out "YELLOW!" and the Peepers are constantly reminding me that it is Spring -- as if I didn't know it. Just another month until the Virginia Bash.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 11, 2004 - 01:30 pm
    It's gray, gloomy and showery here in North Carolina, TOOKI. I couldn't get this wheelchair out on the deck by myself, even if I wanted to more than anything else, because of a 2" strip of metal under the doors. So, instead, I am looking out the glass sliding doors of this room where I live at some of the most beautiful white blossoms on a dogwood tree by the car park that I've ever seen. Our forsythia has gone by, ROBBY. In another week my view through the woods will be hidden by millions of green leaves.

    Mal

    Scrawler
    April 11, 2004 - 06:10 pm
    I don't think we should advertize any more than we are doing at the moment. This is a history discussion in which "religion" plays only a small part. If anyone is interested in history, than they'll join us without us asking them.

    I would certainly enjoy discussing what we've learned so far, except we'd proably need more than one weekend to do it.

    I find the law fascinating. Most people go through their lives without really needing the law and than when they do they have reached a crisis in their lives. I'm sure that there had to be a certain amount of law and order even in the caveman period, but for the Romans to organize the laws was a very great task. And the thought that these same laws have their basis in today's world is almost unreal.

    Cristos anesti (I've probably slaughtered the Greek, but it means - Christ has risen - Happy Holidays everyone!)

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 12, 2004 - 04:25 am
    FOURTH SOURCE OF ROMAN LAW

    "The constitutiones principum, or statutes of the princes, became themselves in the second century a varied source of law. They took four forms

    (A) The prince issued edicta by virtue of his imperium as an official of the city.These were valid for the whole Empire, but apparently lapsed after his death.
    ( His decreta as a judge, like those of other magistrates, had the force of law.
    (C) Imperial rescripta were his answers to inquiries. Usually they were epistulae -- letters -- or subscriptiones, brief replies 'written under' a question or petition. The wise and pithy letters in which Trajan answered the requests of governmental appointees for instruction were incorporated into the laws of the Empire and kept their validity long after his death.
    (D) The mandata of the emperors were their directives to officials. In the course of time these came to constitute a detailed code of administrative law.

    FIFTH SOURCE:

    Under certain circumstances law could be created by the responsa prudentium. It must have been a pleasant sight when learned jurists sat in chairs in the open Forum (or, in later decades, in their homes), and gave legal opinions to all who asked, taking their chances on some indirect remuneration. Often their advice was solicited by lawyers or municipal judges.

    "Like the great rabbis of the Jews they reconciled contradictions, drew subtle distinctions, interpreted and adjusted the ancient law to the needs of life or the exigencies of politics. Their written replies, by unwritten custom, had an authority only less than the law's.

    "Augustus gave such opinions full legal force on two conditions. That the jurist should hve received from the Emperor the ius respondendi, or right of giving legal opinions. And that the reply should be sent under seal to the judge trying the case in point.

    "By the time of Justinian these responsa had become a vast school and literature of law, the fountain and foundation of his culminating Digest and Code."

    Comments, anyone?

    Robby

    tooki
    April 12, 2004 - 07:43 am
    Historical Legal Sources of Anglo-American Law.

    A few surprises here. Scroll down to the end after you know more about Justinian than you ever thought you would.

    Justin
    April 12, 2004 - 01:39 pm
    The Supreme Court sculptures depict the main sources of American law. They range from Hammurabi to Napoleon but for some reason, unknown to Tennessee law judges, Moses is not included.

    For those of you who had the paschel lamb yesterday, or the fatted goose, I wish you well. My tummy is growling in rebellion.

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 12, 2004 - 05:06 pm
    Erle Stanley Gardner? We learn so much in this discussion group!

    Robby

    tooki
    April 12, 2004 - 08:40 pm
    The important point is Gardner providing support for efforts to protect the innocent, or at least, innocent until proven guilty, at a time during the 50s and 60s when individuals, especially those considered deviant, had little protection from police interference.

    Here is the famous Miranda decision which allows for lawyer protection before you spill your guts. I WASN'T MIRANDIZED!

    Justin
    April 12, 2004 - 10:27 pm
    "Mirandized" is another one of those language expanding verbal nouns which do away with the need for detailed explanation. Soon we will all speak in shorthand form never providing a complete thought but always alluding to a complete thought through code.

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 13, 2004 - 03:36 am
    The Philosopher Kings

    A.D. 96 - 180

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 13, 2004 - 03:55 am
    "Withe the assassination of Domitian the principle of heredity disappeared for a century from Roman monarchy. The Senate had never recognized inheritance as a source of sovereighty. Now, after 123 years of submission, it reasserted its authority. As in Rome's beginnings it had chosen the king, now it named one of its own members princeps and imperator.

    "It was an act of courage intelligible only when we remember that the vigor of the Flavian family was exhausted in that same generation which had seen the vitality of the Senate renewed by Italian and provincial blood.

    "Marcus Cocceius Nerva was sixty-six when supremacy surprised him. The colossal Nerva of the Vatican shows a handsome and virile face. No one would suppose tht this was a respectable jurist with a bad stomach, a mild and amiable poet who had once been hailed as 'the Tibullus of our time.' Perhaps the Senate had chosen him for his gray harmlessness.

    "He consulted it on all policies, and kept his pledge never to be the cause of death to any of its members. He recalled Domitian's exiles, restored their property, and moderated their revenge. He distributed 60,000,000 sesterces' worth of lands among the poor, and established the alimenta -- a state fund to encourage and finance parentage among the peasantry.

    "He annulled many taxes, lowered the inheritance dues, and freed the Jews from the tribute that Vespasian had laid upon them. At the same time he repaired the finances of the state by economy in his household and the government. With reason he thought that he had been just to all classes, and remarked that 'I have done nothing that could prevent me from laying down the imperial office and returning to private life in safety.'

    "But a year after his accession the Praetorian Guard, which had been forestalled in his nomination and resented his economy, besieged his palace, demanded the surrender of Domitian's assassins, and killed several of Nerva's councilors. He offered his throat to the swords of the soldiers, but they spared him. Humiliated, he wished to abdicate, but his friends persuaded him, instead, to return to Augustus' example and adopt as his son and successor a man acceptable to the Senate and capable of ruling not only the empire, but the Guard as well.

    "The greatest debt that Rome owed Nerva was that he chose Marcus Ulpius Traianus to succeed him. Three months later, after a reign of sixteen months, he passed away.

    "The principle of adoption thus accidentally restored meant that each emperor, as he felt his powers decline, would associate with himself in rule the ablest and fittest man he could find, so that when death came there would be neither the absurdity of a Praetorian elevation, nor the risk of a natural but worthless heir, nor a civil war among competitors for the throne. It was a lucky chance that no son was born to Trajan, Hadrian, or Antoninus Pius, and that each could apply the adoptive plan without slighting his offspring or his own parental love.

    "While the principle was maintaned it gave Rome 'the finest succession of good and great sovereigns the world has ever had.'"

    Environment over genes?

    Robby

    tooki
    April 13, 2004 - 07:47 am
    The principle of adoption as a means to swell the ranks and elevate the worthy was always part of Native American mores. It's a complicated subject; here are two examples:

    Quanah Parker was the last of the great Comanche chiefs. The son of a captured white woman and a warrior, he won his Chiefdom by his superior abilities; his linage was never a factor. There's a tragic story connected with his mother, but that's for another time.

    Kiowa Dutch was captured and adopted by the Kiowa's when he was about seven. Settlers in the Southwest vividly remembered him for many years for his raiding tactics. Leading a group of Kiowa warriors, he would storm through the settlement or roar around the wagon train with his long, very blond hair streaming behind him. He would be yelling obscenities at the top of his lungs - in broken English, with a German accent.

    He was German, had been taken captive before he mastered English, but wished to torment his former people; his loyalties were undivided.

    Many other fascinating stories of white captives can be found buried in the bowels of research libraries.

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 13, 2004 - 09:22 am
    I've caught your Pop-up virus on my computer, ROBBY. Am in the midst of trying to get rid of it.

    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 13, 2004 - 07:16 pm
    It's coming along. My html program is all messed up, but I can get in my word processor now. I don't know how many virus scans we've done. Hopefully, this will be the end of it.

    There oughtta be a law against these dumb-smart people who write these miserable virus programs.

    Mal

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 13, 2004 - 07:26 pm
    Mal:-Have you answered any of the pornographic ads?

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 13, 2004 - 07:33 pm
    Only the one that wanted me to pose for the Duke Law School recruiting ad holding a diploma with a cap with tassel on my head and that's all. I had to refuse because they didn't offer enough money for my legal-type services. You know how it is. Those lawyers have all that cash, but hate to spread it around.

    Mal

    tooki
    April 13, 2004 - 08:13 pm
    the script printing? Is that the way it's going to be? I find it difficult to read. How do I enlarge it?

    Was I supposed to know this was going to happen?

    I do not like the either the script that Robby is printing in, nor the font which the postings type.

    To whom do I address my concerns for redress? At least the printing must be darker or I'm gone.

    Is this bold? Well, OK, I'll be bold and change font. But I don't like the script. Am I in the minority?

    Robby's passages from the book are italized. Please make them bold. And I would appreciate a different font. I thought the font you were using was visable.

    tooki
    April 13, 2004 - 08:30 pm
    I wish to grump, grumpy, and grumpier.

    Mary W
    April 13, 2004 - 10:13 pm
    I'm with Tooki. I can only read this print with enormous difficulty. Since reading is my sole activity now I should miss this group very much indeed. But if this is the print of the future I can't handle it.

    Why was the format changed? And who changed it?

    There are others, I'm sure, who find this objectionable. For me it's impossible. Can anything be done to change back? Robby can you help?

    Scrawler
    April 13, 2004 - 10:24 pm
    I'd have to say that I don't care for the script writing either. Its hard to read with these old eyes of mine.

    Before we leave Roman law behind us, I'd like to quote the following statement: "Finally a great jurist of the third century, Ulpian, proclaimed what only a few philosophers had dared suggest - that "by the law of Nature" all men are equal."

    Does this mean that all men are equal under the law? Is this true today? And if we are all equal under the law than why are we not also all equal in all things?

    Enviorment or genes? Must we have one or the other. Or can we have both. It seems that even earlier emperors when they first took the position had concerns for the people of Rome. But after awhile when they were truly powerful than it was as if they turned their backs on the people and sought only glory and power. I guess we can safely assume that power corrupts. But would it make a difference whether the one in power came to it by environment or had the power thrust upon him because of his genes. Does power corrupt some of the people but not all? Or once in power would it make little difference what a person's background was.

    Justin
    April 13, 2004 - 10:39 pm
    I am not having difficulty reading the font but if others are having problems with it, then lets return to the font we were all able to read.

    I do not understand this question of environment over genes. If by adopting the ablest and fittest person the Princeps passed to worthy rulers, then the rule would seem to be skill over genes.

    tooki
    April 14, 2004 - 04:59 am
    Scrawler, 574, asks why, if we are equal under the law then why are we not "all equal in all things."

    Because men made the law and men were made unequal. I am not intending to be glib, but that's the way it seems to me.

    Robby ran away in the face of our scorn for the new print, whose font is that pompous "Times New Roman." Mal is in Tekon. If we all go to Tahoma and Bold, it will be readable. Bah! Humbug!

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 14, 2004 - 05:13 am
    I am deliberately using the font, comic sans ms bold. To change your fonts, go to this page. The webmaster is working very hard to straighten things out.

    CHANGE YOUR FONT

    Mal

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 14, 2004 - 06:44 am
    I have absolutely nothing to do with any font changes. As Mal says, the webmaster is trying changes.

    To add on to that, I am leaving in a half hour for a psychological conference in Roanoke, Virginia, and will not be back until Saturday morning so I don't have time to contact Marcie, Ginny, or others. Mal, can I ask you to try to make life a bit easier for those having this problem? Maybe going up to the right hand corner and clicking onto "Enlarge Text."

    I am so sorry having to desert all of you in your "hour of need" but my career calls. I'll see you all Saturday.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 14, 2004 - 06:54 am
    I have just learned from going to other forums that everyone is having the print problem. So please be patient. It WILL be fixed.

    Robby

    Ginny
    April 14, 2004 - 07:31 am
    Have fun, Robby, we're proud of you for going.

    Just a note here, till SeniorNet gets the fonts fixed, if you will adjust your own browser (IE, that is Explorer or Netscape) then you will be able to see beautifully?

    In Explorer 6, if you will hit VIEW and then TEXT SIZE and choose Large or Largest, you will be able to see easily, from across the room in fact, until the new appearance, (which IS glorious) is settled down, they're still tweaking it and this is a way you can manage till then. We do so appreciate all of you in the Books.

    ginny

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 14, 2004 - 07:44 am
    The instructions for changing font size in Netscape or Internet Explorer GINNY just posted can be found on the SeniorNet page I linked in Post #577. I changed my MSIE font to Arial from Times New Roman last night.

    CHANGE YOUR FONT



    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 14, 2004 - 10:44 am
    Marcus Ulpius Traianus

    tooki
    April 14, 2004 - 12:48 pm
    My font, etc., are fine now. Thanks for the assist, Mal. I've noted it in case chaos strikes again. Robby must know, I assume, that I didn't think he did anything; I was teasing again. Down, Tooki, down.

    (Oh, oh! I just got a pop up. Serves me right.)

    The decoration on Trajan's Column apparently told a story, scrolling upward. Perhaps Justin can explain.

    Justin
    April 14, 2004 - 04:54 pm
    Trajan was one of the good guys. His column contains relief scenes from the first and second Dacian campaigns of Trajan. The Parthians gained while Trajan subdued Dacia which is located in the vicinity of present day Rumania. The scenes depicted in continuous narrative are actually snap shots strung out one after the other. One scene depicts battle between Dacians and Romans. Another depicts Romans sacrificing to the gods. A third shows the Legions on the march. Up near the top, I am told, lie the departure scenes. One can not see clearly, from the ground,exactly what is up there. Trajan's Library building stood next to the column and from it's upper stories one could view the middle and upper parts of the narrative. The top used to contain a statue of Trajan. It was replaced at some time with a statue of St Peter ( a little reverse sacrilege). I used field glasses from about mid forum to read the top half once but was unsuccessful. The sun did me in.

    The style of the reliefs is Verismo ie; Realism. It is similar to the treatment of the figures on the Ara Pacis. Details are included in the images that make one think of a documentary. The carving was undoubtedly done by Greeks. The design of the full complex was accomplished by Apollodorus, a Greek.

    Scrawler
    April 14, 2004 - 10:31 pm
    Trajan:

    "The Senate was willing to let him rule if he would observe the forms that maintained its dignity and prestige; like the rest of Rome, it now loved security too much to be capable of freedom."

    Interesting thought. Are we also in danger of loving our security so much that we too will become incapable of freedom? With everything that's been going on in the news lately about how the "powers that be" might have stoped what hapened on 9/11 I can't help but wonder if we would have really done anything different. As far back as the 1950s we probably should have beefed up security in our own country, but we chose not to do so. Did we really think that these terrorist attacks would continue throughout the world and not have them in our own country. Must we now make the choice between freedom and security. I'd like to think that we could have both.

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 15, 2004 - 04:09 am
    Trajan

    Trajan received word of his accession while he was in charge of a Roman army in Cologne. It was characteristic of him that he went on with his work at the frontier and postponed his coming to Rome for nearly two years.

    He had been born in Spain of an Italian family long settled there; in him and in Hadrian Roman Spain arrived at political hegemony, as it had reached literary leadership in Seneca, Lucan and Martial. He was the first in a long line of generals whose provincial birth and training seemed to give them the will-to-life that had gone from native Roman stock. That Rome made no protest against this enthronement of a provincial was in itself an event and omen in Roman history.

    Trajan never ceased to be a general. His carriage was military, his presence commanding; his features were undistinguished but strong. Tall and robust, he was wont to march on foot with his troops and ford with full armament the hundred rivers they had to cross.

    Told that Licinius Sura was plotting against him, he went to Sura's house for dinner, ate without scrutiny whatever food was offered him, and had himself shaved by Sura's barber.

    He was not in any technical sense a philosopher. He used to take Dio Chrysostom, the "golden-mouthed" rhetor, with him in his chariot to discourse to him on philosophy, but he confessed that he could not understand a word of Dio's talk -- the worse for philosophy.

    His mind was clear and direct; he uttered an amazing minumum of nonsense for a man. He was vain, like all human beings, but completely unassuming; he took no advantage of his office, joined his friends at table and the hunt, drank with them copiously, and indulged in occasional pederasty as if out of deference to the customs of his time. Rome thought it was worthy of him that he never disturbed his wife Plotina by making love to another woman.

    When, in the forty-second year of his age, Trajan reached Rome, he was at the height of his faculties. His simplicity, geniality, and moderation readily won a people so lately acquainted with tyranny.

    The younger Pliny was chosen by the Senate to pronounce the "panegyric" of greeting. About the same time Dio Chrysoatom delivered before the Emperor a discourse on the duties of a monarch as viewed by the Stoic philosophy.

    Both Pliny and Dio distinguished between dominatio and principatur; the princew as to be not lolrd of the state but its first servant, the executive delegate of the people, chosen through their representatives, the senators. Imperaturus omnibus elegi debet ex omnibus,, said Pliny: "He who is to command all should be elected by all." The general listened courteously.

    Such fair beginnings were not new in history; what astonished Rome was that Trajan fulfilled their promise abundantly. He gave to his aides or associates the villas in which his predecessors had stayed for a few weeks in the year; "he regarded nothing as his own," said Pliny, "unless his friends possessed it"; as for himself he lived as simply as Vespasian.

    He asked the Senate's opinion on all matters of moment, and discovered that he might wield nearly absolute power if he never used absolute speech. The Senate was willing to let him rule if he would observe the focus that maintained its dignity and prestige; like the rest of Rome, it now loved security too much to be capable of freedom. Perhaps also it was pleased to find Trajan a conservative, who had no intention of muleting the rich to appease the poor.

    Trajan was an able and tireless administrator, a sound financier, a just judge. To him the Digest of Justinian ascribes the principle, "It is better that the guilty should remain unpunished than that the innocent hsould be condemned.

    By careful supervision of expenditures (and some lucrative conquests) he was able to complete extensive public works without increasing taxation; on the contrary, he lowered taxes and published a budget to expose the revenues and outlays of the government to examination and criticism.

    He required from the senators who enjoyed his comradeship and administrative devotion almost as meticulous as his own. The patricians entered the bureaucracy and worked as well as played; Trajan's extant correspondence with them suggests how carefully they labored under his watchful and inspiring leadership.

    Many of the Eastern cities had mismanaged their finances to the point of bankruptcy, and Trajan sent curatores like the younger Pliny to help and check them. The procedure weakened independence and institutions, but it was unavoidable; self-government, by extravagance and incompetence, had brought its own end.

    Your comments about Trajan?

    tooki
    April 15, 2004 - 06:51 am
    An interesting concept: It appears to be a penalty to the rich that they should have to be fined to "appease" the poor. And Durant considers this view, held by Trajan, to be conservative. So, if you're a rich Roman, to help the poor is appeasing them and punishing you. So being poor should be punishment enough, but being appreased by the rich is additional punishment.

    Do let's go on, Mal, I feel a fainting spell approaching. I think Durant has more zingers in store. Thank you for so ably filling in while Robby is away.

    Shasta Sills
    April 15, 2004 - 02:14 pm
    So is Trajan a Spanish name? When I lived in South Louisiana, it was a common name among the Louisiana French. They pronounced it Tra-hahn. I thought it was a French name.

    Justin
    April 15, 2004 - 03:27 pm
    Shasta: Spain at the time of Trajan's birth had been a Roman province for over a century. Latin was the language of Spain. Spanish, as a distinct language, did not appear until the sixth century CE. It developed as a derivative of Latin and local idioms. The same ,of course, is true for the other Romance languages. (French, Italian, Portuguese, Roumanian, and Provencal). Trajan therefore is a Latin term adopted by the French and modified in sound to correspond to their idiom.

    Traude or Tudy will know much more about it's derivation than I do.

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 16, 2004 - 01:18 am
    "Nurtured on war, the Emperor was a frank imperialist who preferred order to liberty and power to peace. Hardly a year after his arrival in Rome he set out for the conquest of Dacia. Roughly corresponding to the Rumania of 1940, Dacia plunged like a fist into the heart of Germany, and would therefore be of great military value in the struggle that Trajan foresaw between the Germans and Italy. Its annexation would give Rome control of the road that ran down the Save to the Danube and thence to Byzantium -- an invaluable land route to the East.

    "Besides, Dacia had gold mines. In a campaign brilliantly planned and swiftly executed, Trajan led his legions through all obstacles and resistence to the Dacian capital, Sarmizegetusa, and forced its surrender. A Roman sculptor has left us an impressive portrait of hte Dacian king Decebalus -- a face noble with strength and character. Trajan reinsated him as a client king and returned to Rome (102), but Decebalus soon broke his agreements and resumed his independent sway.

    "Trajan marched his army back into Dacia (105), bridged the Danube with a structure that was one of the engineering marvels of the century, and again stormed the Dacian capital. Decebalus was killed, a strong garrison was left to hold Sarmizegetusa, and Trajan went back to Rome to clebrate his victory with 10, 000 gladiators (probably war captives) in 123 days of public games. Dacia became a Roman province, received Roman colonists, married them, and corrupted the Latin language in its own Rumanian way.

    The gold mines of Transylvania were put under the direction of an imperial procurator and soon paid for the material cost of the war. To reimburse himself for his labors Trajan took out of Dacia a million pounds of silver and half a milloin pounds of gold --- the last substantial booty that the legions would win for Roman sloth.

    "With these spoils the Emperor distributed 650 denarii ($160) to all such citizens as applied for the gift --- probably some 300,000, and enough remained to remedy the unemployment of demobilization with the greatest program of public works, governmental aid, and archtectural adornment that Italy had seen since Augustus.

    "Trajan improved the older aqueducts and built a new one which is still in operation. At Ostia he constructed a spacious harbor connected by canals with the Tiber and the harbor of Claudius, and decorated it with warehouses that were models of beauty as well as of use. His engineers repaired old roads, carried a new one across the Pontine marshes, and laid the Via Traiana from Beneventum to Brundisium. They reopened the Claudian tunnel that had drained the Fucine Lake, dredged harbors at Centumcellae and Ancona, gave Ravenna an aqueduct, and Verona an amphitheater.

    "Trajan supplied the funds for new roads, bridtes and buildings throughuot the Empire. But he discourged the architectual rivlary of the cities and urged hem to spend their surplus on improving the condiiton and environment of the poor. He was always ready to help any city that had suffered from earthquake, fire, or storm. He tried to promote agriculture in Italy by requiring senators to invest a third of their capital to Italian land; and when he saw that this was extending the latifundia, he encouraged small proprietors by advancing them sate funds at low interest for the purchase of their lands and houses.

    "To raise the birth rate he enlarged the allowance, or feeding fund; the state made mortgage loans at five percent (half the usual rate) to Italian peasants , and allowed local charity boards to distribute the interest to poor parents at sixteen sesters ($1.60) monthly for each boy raised by them, and twelve for each girl. This may seem small, but contemporary testimony indicates that from sixteen to twenty sesterces sufficed for a month's care of a hcild on a first century Italian farm.

    "With a similar hope Trajan allowed the children of Rome to to receive the corn dole in addition to that given to their parents. The system of alimenta was enlarged by Hadrian and the Antonines, was extended to several parts of the Empire, and was supplemented by private philanthropy; so the younger Pliny gave 30,000 sesterces a year as alimentato the children of Cornium, and Carlia Macrina left a million to like purpose for the children of Tarracina in Spain."


    Okay, let me see if I understand this. Trajan captured Dacia, made a whole lot of money, and did any number of good deeds after that. The one thing he didn't do was give equal status for females. I wonder what kind of education these children had?

    Bit of trivia: When I lived in Durham, North Carolina from 1958 to 1959, I lived on Dacian Avenue.

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 16, 2004 - 01:20 am
    Decebalus and the Dacian flag

    Decebalus

    tooki
    April 16, 2004 - 06:06 am
    Trajan, one of the "good guys," as noted by Justin, did good deeds, excepting freeing the females. He was, however, upstaged by Decebalus in terms of his equestrian prowess and manly looks.

    Trajan's Principate was from 98 to 117, the war with Dacia in 101-102, and already Trajan foresaw a struggle between the Germans and Italy. It seems the Romans could see the decline coming for centuries.

    Mal, good that your computer is alive and well. Were there any equestrain sculptures on the street where you lived?

    Rich7
    April 16, 2004 - 02:08 pm
    Havn't read Durant, but following your discussion with curiosity.

    The mention of Trajan in Cologne reminded me of the time that I actually saw, in Cologne, a preserved short section of Roman road that at one time led from Cologne to Rome (Isn't that where all roads lead?). It's well preserved, and looks like huge cobblestones. You can walk on it.

    I'll get out of your way, now.

    Rich

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 16, 2004 - 03:06 pm
    RICH, come back! We need you here! You don't need the book. Join us in the discussion!

    Folks, Rich is a fellow WREX writer originally from Massachusetts just as I am.

    Mal

    Rich7
    April 16, 2004 - 03:22 pm
    I didn't go far. This discussion is interesting to me. Don't know what I can contribute without reading Durant, but history fascinates. I found it curious that an earlier poster mentioned that Rome (or at least some people therein) foresaw (sp) the fall of their civilization. What were the symptoms, and are we showing any of them in twenty first century Western civilization? I think I see the symptoms in some of the oldest cultures in Western Europe (France,Germany, and now, Spain) not having the backbone to stand up to the growing worldwide terrorist threat.

    Best, Rich

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 16, 2004 - 03:31 pm
    RICH, you don't need the books. ROBBY IADELUCA, the discussion leader, posts sections of the book about every day. If you scroll back you'll see them. I'm pinch-hitting for Robby for a couple of days while he's at a psychology conference. He's a clinical psychologist.

    Do join us, please. We discuss the kinds of things you mentioned.

    Mal

    Rich7
    April 16, 2004 - 03:35 pm
    Thanks, Mal I'll scroll back to the last one and read it.

    Question for you- Do you ever rest?

    Best, Rich

    Ginny
    April 16, 2004 - 05:02 pm
    Rich, I'm going to Koln this summer and did not know about that Roman road, so will look forward with great anticipation to seeing it, thank you very much!

    Justin
    April 16, 2004 - 05:18 pm
    Rich: Nice to have you with us. The books are available at the public library. Robby posts quotes from the book dealing with the material we are discussing. Try it for a while. See if you like it. Then invest in the books if you wish. These volumes may be on the internet somewhere. Mal will know where they are.

    Tell me what you see in Germany, France, and Spain that suggests decline. I don't think they are denying the existance of terrorism. They know it's sting. But they may be objecting to our indirect methods of fighting the threat. I don't think they like pre-emptive strikes on countries that may or may not be a threat to them. It takes backbone to tell a country as strong as we are to bug off.

    In the case of Rome, the decline is not yet evident. They have not yet reached the peak of their civilization. They have come 600 years in their 1000 year reign and not yet peaked.

    Stay with us , if you enjoy history and its connection to contemporary life.

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 16, 2004 - 09:11 pm
    Trajan, like Augustus, favored Italy over the provinces, and Rome over Italy. He used to the full the architectural genius of Apollodorus, a Damascene Greek who had designed the new roads and aqueduct, and the Danube bridge. The Emperor now commissioned him to clear awya large blocks of houses, cut 130 feet from the base of the Quirinal hill, lay out in this and the adjoining space a new forum equal in area to all preceding forums combined, and surround it with buildings of a majesty fit for a world capital that had reached the height of its power and opulence.

    The Forum Traianum was entered through theTriumphal arch of Trajan. The interior, 370 by 354 feet, was paved with smooth stone and surrounded by a high wall and portico; east and west walls were indented with hemicycle esedrae formed of Doric columns. In the center rose the Basilica Ulpia, named after Trajan's clam and intended as an office building for commerce and finance; its exterior was adorned with fifty monolithic columns, its floor was of marble, its immense nave was enclosed by granite colonnades, its roof of massive beams was covered wtih bronze. Near the northern end ot the new forum two libraries were built, one for Latin works, the other for Greek. Between them rose the column, behind them the temple, of Trajan. When the forum was complete it was accounted one of the architectural wonders of hte world.

    The column, still standing, was first of all an achievement in transportatioin. It was cut from eighteen cubes of marble, each weighing some fifty tons; the blocks were brought by ship from the island of Paros, were transferred to barges at Ostia, were drawn against the current up the river, and were moved on rollers up the bank and through the streets to their site. The cubes were recut into thirty-two blocks. Eight formed the pedestal, three sides of this were decorated with sculptures; the fourth opened into a spiral stairway of 185 marble steps.

    The shaft, twelve feet in diameter at the bottom and ninety-seven feet high, was composed ot twenty-one blocks and was topped by a statue of Trajan holding a globe of the world. Before being put into position the blocks were carved with reliefs picturing the campaigns in Dacia. These reliefs ar the culmination of Flavian realism and of ancient historial sculpture. They do not aim at the calm beauty of idealized types of Greek sculpture; they seek rather to convey a vivid impression of living individuals in the actual scenes and turmoil of war; they are Balzac and Zola after Corneille and Racine.

    In the 2000 figures of these 114 spired panels we follow the conquest of Dacia step by step; the Roman cohorts issuing from their stations in full armor; the crossing of the Danube on a pontoon bridge; the pitching of a Roman camp in the enemy's land; the confused conflict of speakrs, arrows, sickles and stone; a Dacian village set to the torch, with women and children begging Trajan for mercy; Dacian women torturing Roman prisoners; soldiers displaying beofre the Emperor the heads of slain enemies; surgeons treateing the wounded; the Dacian princes drinking one after another the cup of poison; the head of Decebalus brought as a trophy to Trajan; the long file of captive men, women and children snatched from their homes into foreign settlement or Roman slavery -- this and more the dark column tells in the most masterly narrative relief in sculptural history.

    These artists and their employers were not chauvinists; they showed Trajan's acts of clemency, but alos they revealed the heroic aspects of a nation's struggle for freedom; and the finest figure in this scroll is the Dacian king. It is a strange document, too crowded for full effectiveness; some figures so crude that one wonders if a Dacian warrior carved them; superposition primitively substituted for perspective; and the whole observable, like Pheidias frieze, only by some skylark scorner of the ground. But it was an interesting deviation from a classic style whose placidity had never expressed the overwhelming energy of the Roman character. Its "method of continuity" -- making each scene melt into the next -- carried on the suggestions of Titus arch and prepared for medieval reliefs. Deapite its defects the spiral story was imitated again and again, from the columns of Aurelius in Rome, and that of ARcadius in Constantinople, to the Napoleonic shaft in the Place Vendome in Paris.

    Trajan completed his building program by finishing in the grand manner the baths begun by Domitian. Meanwhile six years of peace had wearied him, administration was a task that did not awaken his reserve energies as war did; he did not feel alive in a palace. Why not take up Caesar's plans where Antony had failed, settle the Parthian question once and for all, establish a more startegic frontier to the East, and capture control of the trade routes across Armenia and parthia to Central Asia, the Persian Gulf, and India?

    After careful preparation he set out again with his legions (113). A year later he had taken Armenia; yet another year an had had marched down through Mesopotamia, captured Cresiphon, and reach the Indian Ocean -- the first and last Roman general to stand before that sea. The population at home learned geography by following his victoris; the Senate was amused to be informed, almost weekly, of another nation conquered or hastily submitting; the Bosporus, Colchis, Asiatic Iberia, Asiatic Albanis, Osrhoen, Messenia, Media, Assyria, Arabia Petrea, at last even Parthia.

    Parthia, Armenia, Assyria, and Mesopotamia were constituted provinces, and the new Alexander had the glory of naming and crowning a clint king over the ancient enemies of Rome. Standing on the shores of the Red Sea, Trajan mourned that he was too old to repeat the Macedonian's advance to the Indus. He contented himself with building a Red Sea fleet to control the passage and commerce to India; left garrisons at all strategic points, and turned bakc reluctantly toward Rome.

    Like antony he had gone too fast and too far and had neglected to consolidate his victories and his lines. On reaching Antioch he wa sinformed that the Parhtian king Osroes, whom he had deposed, had gathered another army and had reconquered central Mesopotamia, that rebelliion had broken out in all the new provincs; that the Jews of Mesopotamia, Egypt, and Cyrene were in revolt, and that disaffection was flaring up in Libya, Mauretanis and Britain.

    The old warrior wished to take the field again, but his flesh refused. He had worn himself out by living as actively in the hot East as in the West; dropy set in, and a paralytic stroke left the great will helpless in a broken fram. Sadly he commissioned Lucius Quietus to put down the uprisings in Mesopotamia, sent Marcus Turba to suppress the Jews in Africa, and left his nephew Hadrian in command of the main Roman army in Syria. He had himself carried down to the Cilician coast, hoping to sail thence to Rome, where the Senate was preparing for him the greatest triumph since Augustus. He died at Selinus on the way (117) aged sixty-four, after a reign of nineteen years. His ashes were taken tot he capital, and were buried under the great column that he had chosen as his tomb.

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 16, 2004 - 09:14 pm
    Arch of Trajan

    Bas reliefs. Click thumbnails for larger images.

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 16, 2004 - 09:20 pm
    Trajan's Column

    Bas Reliefs. Trajan's Column

    Scrawler
    April 16, 2004 - 11:34 pm
    What always amazes me are the workmanship that must have gone into the Column of Trajan. In my book, there is a relif from the Column of Trajan showing a Roman soldier and Dacian. It's truly amazing even the tree in the background shows the detail craftmanship that went into this column.

    Durant stated: " These reliefs are the culmination of Flavian realism and of ancient historical sculpture. They do not aim at the calm beauty or idealized types of Greek sculputre; they seek rather to convey a vivid impression of living individuals in the actual scenes and turmoil of war..."

    I think this is what impressed me the most that the column conveyed "living individuals in the actual scenes."

    Rich7
    April 17, 2004 - 02:54 am
    Ginny, If you are going to Cologne this summer, be sure to visit the shops and restaurants along the Koenigstrasse (known to the locals as "der Ko"..with an umlaut over the "o") Some of the best dressed people in the world can be seen walking along the Koenigstrasse. Also, visit Cologne cathedral. It's not what you might expect in a cathedral. Its dark, dusty, and cold, but as a history buff, you'll appreciate the fact that Charlemagne is entombed there. The locals called him Karl der Gross.

    Best, Rich

    Rich7
    April 17, 2004 - 04:58 am
    Just finished reading the last posting quoting Durant on Trajan. It's ironic that Trajan regretted that he could not conquor lands as far east as Alexander the Great (I assume that's what Durant meant by "the Macedonian"). Alexander supposedly cried after his most eastern campaigns and victories because "there were no more worlds to conquer."

    Best, Rich

    tooki
    April 17, 2004 - 06:01 am
    or is it Gordot? Which reminded me, is there a difference between waiting for Gordot and are we there yet? Just an idle Saturday morning muser.

    Just one more site that has some information about the excavation of Trajan's work in the 19th century.

    Contemporary Trajan's Market

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 17, 2004 - 10:57 am
    Well, I'm back with my head full of the latest psychological theories and conclusions. Frankly, I prefer to let my thoughts wander into Ancient Rome.

    As usual, my deepst gratitude to Mal for keeping the speed of this discussion group moving at its regular pace. As DL, I can give you an official "Welcome", Rich but you have already received a warm welcome from everyone here. As Mal told you, you will be able to keep up without having a book to which to refer by reading the excerpts from Durant's book. We still have a ways to go in this third volume of Durant's and you might find it helpful to pick up a second hand copy. While doing that, you might also find it beneficial to pick up a copy of his fourth volume, "The Age of Faith." We will probably finish this volume, "Caesar and Christ," some time in the summer months, take off a week or two, and then begin the fourth volume.

    The GREEN quotes in the heading above is also another way of knowing where we are in the volume. I change them periodically to follow Durant's various sections. I am behind time with them at the moment but will catch up.

    I love psychology but it's SO GOOD TO BE BACK! Besides -- There is so much of a psychological nature to notice as we observe the behavior of these Ancients.

    Mal was good enough to end at the section where Durant finished with Trajan so we will now read and talk about Hadrian -- "The Ruler," "The Wanderer," and "The Builder."

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 17, 2004 - 11:53 am
    Before beginning "Hadrian," may I throw this in for your contemplation. So often in this forum we have commented on the constant violence by not only citizens of Ancient Rome but many cultures before that. Many of those commiting acts of violence were young at the time but calmed down as they became older. This ARTICLE by a Pulitzer Prize winner states that it is in the nature of a teenager to want to destroy. He says that this destructive impulse is universal among children "of all ages," rises to a peak in adolescence and thereafter never entirely goes away.

    Any thoughts about that?

    Robby

    Justin
    April 17, 2004 - 01:17 pm
    Rich: Alex may have been in tears because he had no more worlds to conquer but the truth is India and China lay ahead of him. His men were exhausted and refused to continue. His supply lines were stretched back to the Tigris-Euphrates basin. His power to move was at an end.

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 17, 2004 - 03:28 pm
    Durant continues with Hadrian:-

    "Probably we shall never know whether the most brilliant of the Roman emperors won his throne by amorous connivance or by Trajan's conviction of his worth. Says Dio Cassius, 'His appointment was due to the fact that when Trajan died without an heir, his widow Plotina, who was in love with Hadrian, conspired to secure him the succession.' Spartianus repeats the story. Plotina and Hadrian denied the rumor, which nevertheless persisted to the end of his reign. He settled the matter by disributing a generous donative among the troops.

    "Publius Aelius Hadrianus traced his cognomen and family to the town of Adria, on the Adriatic coast. Thence, said his autobiography, his ancestors had migrated to Spain. The same Spanish town, Italica, that had seen the birth of Trajan in 52 saw that of his nephew Hadrian in 76. When the boy's father died (86) he was placed under the guardianship of Trajan and Caelius Attianus.

    "The latter tutored him and instilled in him so warm a fondness for Greek literature that the youth was nicknamed Graeculus. He studied also singing, music, medicine, mathematics, painting, and sculpture, and later dabbled in half a dozen arts.

    "Trajan called him to Rome (91) and gave him his niece in marriage (100). Vivia Sabina, as preserved in portrait busts that may have idealized her, was a woman of distinguished and conscious beauty, in whoch Hadrian found no lasting happiness. Possibly he loved dogs and horses too keenly, and spent too much time hunting with them, and building tombs for them when they died. Perhaps he was unfaithful, or seemed so. In any case, she bore him no children, and though she accompanied him on many of his travels, they lived in lifelong estrangement. He showed her every favor and courtesy, and gave her every kindness but affection. When Suetonius, one of his secretaries, spoke disrespectfully of her, he dismissed him.

    "Hadrian's first decision as emperor was to revise the imperialistic policy of his uncle. He had counseled Trajan against the Parthian expedition as too great an expenditure of men and means so soon after the Dacian Wars, and as promising, at best, gains difficult to hold. Trajan's generals, eager for glory, had never pardoned his opposition.

    "Now he withdrew the legions from Armenia, Assyria, Mesopotamis, and Parthia, made Armenia a client kingdom instead of a province, and accepted the Euphrates as the eastern boundary of the empire. He played Augustus to Trajan's Caesar, and consolidated with peaceful administration as much as he could of the unprecedentd realm that reckless arms had won.

    "The generals who had led Trajan's forces -- Palma, Celsus, Quietus, Nigrinus -- thought this policy cowardly and unwise. To cease to attack, they felt was merely to defend, and merely to defend was to begin to die.

    "While Hadrian was with his legions on the Danube th4e Senate announced that the four generals had been detected in a conspiracy to overthrow the government, and had been executed by the Senate's orders. Rome was shocked to find that the men had received no trial. Though Hadrian, returning hurriedly to Rome, protested that he had nothing to do with the mater, no one believed him. He vowed to put no senator to death except at the Senate's bidding, distributed a gift of money among the people, amused them with abundant games, anceled tax arrears to the amount of 900,000,000 sesterces, publicly burned the tax records in a fiscal auto-da-fe, and for twenty years governed with wisdom, justice, and peace.

    "But his unpopularity remained complete."

    Interesting how when the people were unhappy, emperors often distributed money to them.

    Robby

    Justin
    April 17, 2004 - 04:19 pm
    When emperors had opposition they simply arranged for their demise. During the Principate Antony did away with Cicero. Hadrian's four opponents are removed by the Senate. Later on we will find that Henry 11 of England dispatched Thomas the Archbishop of Canterbury in the same way. A couple of his buddies did the job while Henry was away. If that technique were used today. O'Neil and Clarke would no longer be with us. We have progressed that far.

    Ginny
    April 17, 2004 - 04:41 pm
    Will do, Rich, thanks, I copied that out and pasted it in my notebook, I want to see the cathedral by night, we helped a couple from Koln (who barely spoke English, I hope that is not endemic there hahaahah) but I did hear Koln pronounced, lots of Roman stuff there in the museum also, supposedly very fine! Can't wait!

    The Arch of Trajan is fabulous. It's much much bigger than you think and much whiter, having been cleaned for the Jubilee. I've got a photo somewhere, it's at the top of a hill and stuns you, really knocks you down and the crowds are such you can't get near it.

    ginny

    tooki
    April 17, 2004 - 08:22 pm
    Perhaps it's not her beauty, but rather the elegance of the sculpture that entrances.

    Hadrian's Wife Sabina

    tooki
    April 17, 2004 - 08:39 pm
    This brief article, a book review of "Napoleon's Fatal March On Moscow," may be of interest, dealing as it does with supply lines and such.

    Trajan had, along with Alexander, "like Antony gone too fast and too far and had neglected to consolidate his victories and his lines," thereby causing problems for Hadrian.

    Horse Dung and All

    Why don't these guys learn from each other? Isn't America having some supply problems on the road to Baghdad, i.e., supply conveys keep getting popped. If I were to write about about warfare the first sentence would be: "Keep your eyes on your rear where your supply lines are supposed to be."

    3kings
    April 17, 2004 - 10:07 pm
    I came across some brief passages translated from letters exchanged between Trajan and Pliny the Younger, that maybe of some interest.

    Pliny. Nicaea has expended 10,000,000 sesterces on a theatre that was tottering, and great sums on a gymnasium that was burned... At Claudiopolis they are excavating a bathhouse at the foot of the mountain. What am I to do ?

    Trajan. You are on the spot, decide for your self. As for the architects, we at Rome send to Greece for them. You should find some where you are.

    Pliny. The money due to the towns of the province has been called in, and no borrowers at 12% are to be found. Ought I reduce the rate of interest, or compel the decurions (?) to borrow the money in equal shares ?

    Trajan. Put the interest low enough to attract borrowers, but do not force anyone to borrow... Such a course would be inconsistent with the temper of our century.

    Pliny. A great fire has devastated Nicomedia. Would it be in order to establish a society of 150 Firemen ?

    Trajan. No. Corporations, whatever they are called, are sure to become political associations.

    Pliny. I have never been present at the resolutions concerning the Christians, therefore I know not for what causes....they may be objects of punishment.... Are those who retract to be punished? Must they be punished for their profession alone ?

    Trajan. The Christians need not be sought out. If they are brought into your presence and convicted, they must be punished. But anonymous information against them should not carry any weight in the charges.

    Pity we could not have such clear insistence on justice and law in this country. We have a man held in prison, not brought before the courts or had the substance of the charges on which he is held, explained to him or his lawyers. All the Secret Service will say is, he is a terrorist, and then refuse to disclose any evidence they may have against him.... Innocent until proven guilty ? I think not.... == Trevor

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 18, 2004 - 04:24 am
    Tooki:-Continuing the subject of "supply lines," everyone who was in the European Theater of Operations remembers the Red Ball Express. Toward the end of the war we were advancing so fast, it was difficult for the various supplies to keep up with the front lines. The Express consisted of 2 1/2 ton trucks marked with a Red Ball which had priority over everything -- and I mean EVERYTHING. Combat MPs were stationed at various points to stop whatever other vehicle action was taking place and they were not allowed any excuse. We had to get out of the way and these trucks barrelled by at whatever speed the type of road permitted -- and sometimes faster than that!

    Trevor:-That is a most interesting exchange of letters. I found especially of interest Trajan's comment that all associations become political associations.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 18, 2004 - 04:37 am
    "Hadrian's ancient biographer describes him as tall and elegant, with hair curled, and 'a full beard to hide the natural blemishes of his face.' Thenceforth all Rome wore beards. He was strongly built and kept himself in vigor by frequent exercise, above all by hunting. On several occasions he killed a lion with his own hands. So many elements were mingled in him that description is baffled.

    "He wrote several volumes -- a grammar, an autobiography, poems decent and indecent, in Latin and Greek. He preferred Greek to Latin literature. He organized the state-paid professors into a university, paid them well, and built for them a magnificent Athenaeum to rival the Museum of Alexandria. It delighted him to gather scholars and thinkers about him.

    "Along with these multiple intellectual interests went an unerring sense for the practical. Following Domitian's lead, Hadrian reduced his freedmen to subordinate functions, chose businessmen of tried ability to administer the government, and formed from them and senators and jurists a concilium to meet in regular sessions for the consideration of policies. He appointed an advocatus fisci, or Attorney for the Treasury, to detect corruption or deceit in the payment of taxes, with the illuminating result that while taxes remained as before, revenues were decidedly increased.

    "He was too close to his problems to foresee that his efficient but proliferating bureaucracy might become in time an unbearable burden upon the taxpayers. On the contrary, he believed that within the framework of law and ordinance which his government had established, every person in the Empire would find career open to talent and any man could rise rapidly from class to class."

    An Emperor of a "democracy?"

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 18, 2004 - 04:56 am
    Hadrian

    Hadrian's Arch

    Hadrian's Wall

    Rich7
    April 18, 2004 - 06:01 am
    Oops! I think that I just stumbled into a nest of political liberals. Just kidding!

    Really just kidding. I used that opening to get your attention.

    After reading some recent postings, I do have an issue which I should put on the table right up front.

    I am a passionate and outspoken supporter of our president, George W. Bush. I sense that most of you in this discussion group have quite different political opinions- that's ok with me.

    They say that in polite company you never dscuss religion, sex, or politics. Can we have a rule in this discussion of the Durants' work that contemporary politics be kept out?

    If that's impossible, no big problem, but I will have to move on. I'd really like to stay, because I have always wanted to read the Durants' series, but found the prospect too daunting. This discussion group is a good motivator for me. I intended to go out and acquire a copy(s), today.

    Mr discussion leader, is my proposed rule doable?

    Best, Rich

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 18, 2004 - 06:12 am
    RICH, this is not a political discussion. Political discussions are in the Political Issues folder, which is not in the Books and Literature folders. We try to keep politics out of this discussion, though it is difficult sometimes not to compare what's happening today with what happened in past history. We do not mention party affiliation or the names of current politicians in this discussion. Sometimes we slip, but I guess that is natural.

    ROBBY will tell you more about this, and perhaps post the guidelines we use here in The Story of Civilization discussion.

    Mal

    tooki
    April 18, 2004 - 06:22 am
    With the help of Trajan's advice to Pliny the Younger and the Red Ball Express described by Robby, I'm sure if I took the field I'd be successful. One more thing I would need: "The Marine Corp Small Wars Manual."

    According to a report from "The Wall Street Journal," it is a 65 year old, (published in 1940), 446 page manual based on Marine Corp experiences from 1898-1934 in fighting the many "small wars" America was involved in during those years.

    It is again being used in Iran after being classified from about 1941 until 1972. It gives the Marines solace to know that America has often fought "small wars." It also gives them solid, useful information on searching the donkeys.

    I couldn't pull up the articles, but the Marine Corp has it on an official site. Maybe Justin has his copy.

    tooki
    April 18, 2004 - 06:27 am
    If Justin can't find his copy, THIS will have to do.

    Go to "Small Wars History" for an account and the official view of the Marine Corp.

    I find Trajan and Hadrian fascinating and informative. Were I a man I could serve under them, so to speak.

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 18, 2004 - 06:56 am
    Rich:-As Mal indicated, we do not discuss contemporary politics. Politics during ancient times is touched upon from time to time. Sex and religion is another story. We do comment on those topics and apparently fairly often. Following are my two opening postings in "Caesar and Christ." The first posting may help you to see how we operate. The second one indicates the guidelines regarding "religion."

    robert b. iadeluca - 12:04pm Aug 26, 2003 PST (#1 of 1000)

    A hearty welcome to everyone entering here!!



    To those of you who participated in Durant's first volume, "Our Oriental Heritage," and his second volume, "The Life of Greece" -- welcome Home! To those of you who are dipping your toe for the first time in "The Story of Civilization," you will very quickly find yourself pouring out your views.



    You see, none of us come on as experts and therefore no question is stupid and no comment is ridiculous. We are all sleuths trying to find the answer to Voltaire's question in the Heading above. And to help us determine our origins, where we are now, and where we are headed, we lean on Dr. Durant, our resident expert.



    Hear his warning:



    "The study of antiquity is properly accounted worthless except as it may be made living drama, or illuminate our contemporary life."



    And so in this discussion group, we attempt to follow his guidance. Even as we cast our eyes backward over 2000 years, we simultaneously glance sideways to see what is happening in our own time. We do not want the time we spend examining antiquity to be "worthless", therefore we will undoubtedly continue doing what we did throughout the previous two volumes and that is allow our new knowledge of Ancient Rome to illuminate our contemporary life. This is, however, not a political forum so we will refrain from mentioning the names of any personages currently in the public eye.



    As for 'living drama,' we will have lively disagreements (always respectful of course), we will pause at times to tease and laugh at each other, and of course there will be the ever present links to help us understand the Roman Empire through the medium of pictures as well as words.



    Durant continues:



    "The rise of Rome, its achievement of two centuries of security and peace, and its collapse is surely the greatest drama ever played by man -- unless it be that other drama which began when Caesar and Christ stood face to face in Pilate's court -- and continued until a handful of hunted Christians had grown by time and patience, and through persecution and terror, to be first the allies, then the masters, and at last the heirs, of the greatest empire in history."



    Many of his pages will go by, however, before he tells us of the beginnings of Christianity.



    Let us then put on our togas and sandals and and get ready for an absolutely thrilling experience.



    A tip-off to those new to this discussion group. Do not quickly scroll down through the Heading. Read the phrases slowly. The Heading is an integral part of this forum. The four quotes in BROWN under the words "Volume Three" are the guidelines for the entire volume -- especially the four "elements" he lists. You might want to refer to them occasionally so as to understand the structure of his thinking.



    The quotes in GREEN directly underneath are changed periodically. Those who have the volume will know where we are by those quotes. Those who do not have the book will find that they can easily keep up with everyone else by referring to the same quotes.



    robert b. iadeluca - 12:22pm Aug 26, 2003 PST (#2 of 1000)

    "To my knowledge, no civilization of any sort has existed without some sort of ritual which one can call religious. For this reason, it will be impossible to participate in this forum without discussing "religion" from time to time.



    "However, the following guidelines will be enforced by the Discussion Leader to avoid confrontations and digressions about personal religious views.



    "1 - You may make one post describing your own beliefs related to religion (whether you have a religious faith or do not) in order to explain your viewpoint toward the topic at hand. Making additional posts about your religious beliefs or faith is not permitted.



    2 - Do not speak of your religion or absence of religious beliefs as "the truth."



    3 - Do not attempt to change another's conviction about religion.



    "Comments about issues are welcomed. Negative comments about other participants are not permitted.



    "Those participants who do not believe they are being treated fairly in this respect always have the right to contact Marcie, Director of Education. I will follow her guidance."



    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 18, 2004 - 07:10 am
    The GREEN quotes in the heading have been brought up to date.

    A word of caution, Rich. Those of us with the book at hand are often tempted to go ahead of the sub-topic we are discussing. Those GREEN quotes help us to stay together as we go through the volume.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 18, 2004 - 09:27 am
    "Hadrian's clear and logical mind resented the chaos of accumulated, obscure, and contradictory laws. He commissioned Julianus to co-ordinate the enactments of past praetors into a Perpetual Edict, and encouraged further codifications that paved the way for Justinian.

    "He acted as a supreme court both in Rome and on his journeys, and earned the reputation of a fair and learned judge, always as lenient as the reign of law would permit. He issued innumerable decrees, usually in favor of the weak against the strong -- the slave against the master -- the small farmer against the large estate -- the tenant against the landlord -- the consumer against the deceptions of retailers and the multiplicaton of middlemen.

    "He rejected accusations for maiestas, refused bequests from parents, or persons unknown to him, and ordered a tolerant application of the laws against Christians. By his own example on state lands he encouraged the practice of emphyteusis ('implanting'), by which owners rented rough acres to tenants to be planted with orchards and remain rent-free until fruit grew.

    "He was not a radical reformer. He was only a superlative administrator seeking, within the limits and inequalities of human nature, the greatest good of the whole. He preserved old forms, but he quietly poured new content into them according to the needs of the time.

    "Once when his passion for administration flagged, he refused audience to a petitioning woman with the plea, 'I haven't time.' She cried, 'Don't be emperor, then.' He granted her a hearing."

    Robby

    Scrawler
    April 18, 2004 - 09:47 am
    What's the saying: "Old soldiers never die..." I guess this can refer to old "teenagers" who rebeled back in the 1960s and now that my age has caught up with me I continue to rebel but do it with "pen and passion". I think it depends on the personality of the "teenager" whether they decide on "destruction" to cool their rebelous nature.

    I found these statements very interesting: "Under his care and with the help of an extended civil service, the Empire was probably better governed than ever before or afterward. The price of this zealous order was a swelling bureaucacy, and a "mania of regualation" that moved the principate still closer to absolute monarchy."

    Do I understand to mean that the people of Roman were governed better under Hadrian, but because of the "mania of regulation" that the people gave up their freedom for security.

    "On the contrary, he believed that within the framework of law and ordinance which his government had established every person in the Empire would find career open to talent and any man could rise rapidly from class to class."

    I doubt that Hadrian was referring to slaves and women, but this statement seems to me to be, although idealistic, not very pratical under the Roman government. How did he hope to accomplish this I wonder.

    Justin
    April 18, 2004 - 04:36 pm
    Rich; If you have a desire to defend the ways of your FRIEND why don't you look in on Hope Dies Last. That's a free wheeling discussion with some rules but none that block contemporary political views.

    Rich7
    April 18, 2004 - 05:05 pm
    Justin,

    A problem with posting, and e mails for that matter, are that you are not face to face with whom you are communicating and there is a lot of room for misunderstanding.

    My point was that I was hoping that this was a site where the discussion was about the Durants' writings and I, or anyone else would NOT feel the need to defend their political perspective on current issues.

    From recent postings,I sensed an undercurrent of anti-Bush feeling amoung some of the participants, and I felt uncomfortable.

    I asked for a reassurance from the discussion leader that contemporary politics are out of bounds in the discussion of the Durants' works.

    Rich

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 18, 2004 - 05:08 pm
    Rich, here is the LINK to the book discussion to which Justin is referring.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 18, 2004 - 05:14 pm
    Rich:-You received that reassurmance in my re-posting of the first two postings of this discussion. I am confused as to why you would feel uncomfortable if anyone here has different political views from you. This is a historical discussion and, in my opinion, people of differing views can be objective in examining the events of ancient history. Neither you, nor anyone else here, needs to "defend" any political view.

    This forum, "The Story of Civilization," has been active for the past two years and four months and no such problem has ever existed. We spend our time concentrating on the writings of Durant. What are your reactions to the words of Durant in Posts 617 and 625?

    Robby

    Justin
    April 18, 2004 - 05:17 pm
    Hadrian's efforts to bureaucratize the Roman government and to add mobility to Roman classes are opposing movements. The first is a movement toward a strong central government and the other is a regressive movement in the direction of democracy. However, even in the Republic classes were static. Patricians were Patrician and Plebs were plebian. One ruled in the Senate and the other ruled in the Forum.

    Business men are moved into the new bureaucracy on the theory that they are skilled in organization and management. That practice is still with us though it is recognized today , as it may have been then, that businessmen in government tend to feather their own nests. However, there may be no other social activity in which skillful organizers can demonstrate their skills and thereby rise to prominence.

    I agree with Scrawler on the women issue. They were probably not included. But the women were not powerless. Plotina showed them what women can do.

    Justin
    April 18, 2004 - 11:54 pm
    "It is the great past not the dizzy present that is the door to the future." Some one said that before me though I can't remember who. We are tumbling down a road today that has all the earmarks of the Appian Way. Wouldn't it be nice if we recognized some of the pot holes before we bounced into them?

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 19, 2004 - 03:19 am
    "Following the wholesome precedent of Augustus, Hadrian decided to visit every province, examining its conditions and needs and alleviating them with the expedition and resources available to an emperor. In 121 he set out from Rome, accompanied not by the pomp and trappings of royalty, but by experts, architects, builders, engineers, and artists. He went first to Gaul and 'came to the relief of all the communities with various acts of generosity.' He passed into Germany and astonished everyone by his thoroughness with which he inspected the defenses of the Empire against its future destroyers.

    "He now traveled down the Rhine to its mouth and sailed across to Britain (122). We are not informed of his activites there, except that he ordered a wall built from the Solway Firth to the mouth of the Tyne 'to divide the barbarians from the Romans.' Returning to Gaul he passed leisurely through Avignon, Nimes, and other towns of the provincia, and settled down for the winter at Tarragona in northern Spain.

    "In the spring of 123 he led some legions against the Moors of northwest Africa, who had been raiding the Roman towns of Mauretania. Having defeated them and driven them back into the hills, he took ship for Ephesus. After wintering there he visited the cities of Asia Minor, listening to petitions and complaints, punishing malfeasance, rewarding competence, and providing money, designs, and workmen for municipal temples, baths, and theaters.

    "He pushed eastwrd along the Euxine to Trapezus, ordered the governor of Cappadocia -- the historian Arrian -- to examine and report to him the condition of all the ports on the Black Sea. In the fall of 125 he sailed to Rhodes and thence to Athens.

    "He passed a happy winter there and then turned homeward. Still curious at fifty, he stopped in Sicily, and climbed Mt. Etna to see the sunrise from a perch 11,000 feet above the sea."

    Now there's an Emperor! Any comments?

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 19, 2004 - 04:52 am
    The building of Hadrian's wall

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 19, 2004 - 05:36 am
    Hadrianic Architecture. Click pictures to see larger ones

    tooki
    April 19, 2004 - 06:40 am
    I was trying to find "the Roman towns of Mauretania" and found THIS MAP.

    I think its a great help. It may be that we've looked at others like it, but I wasn't ready to try and identify places.

    "When the teacher is needed, he will appear." David Carradine

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 19, 2004 - 11:55 am
    Tooki:-That is a marvelous map! I clicked on it all over the place and even printed it out because it is such a neat map.

    Robby

    Justin
    April 19, 2004 - 02:47 pm
    The Latin language moved through a series of stages in it's growth to the language we know today as Latin. It moved from a preliterary stage to an archaic period and then to the golden age of Cicero, through a period known as the Silver Latinity, then on through an archaizing period and finally into a period of decline. It was in the sixth century CE that Latin split into two streams. The first stream became the language of the law courts,scholars and the church. The second stream is the colloquial idiom of the common people, which developed ultimately in the provinces as the Romance idioms. These are the Italian, Spanish, French, Portuguese, Provencal, and Roumanian.

    Durant tells us that Hadrian is said to have preferred old Cato's simple Latin to Cicero's smooth elequence. Under Hadrian's example many authors adopted an archaic style. We are in the Silver Latinity period which is characterized by the introduction of idioms from the colloquial language and a temporary archaizing shift backwards to Catonic forms.

    Justin
    April 19, 2004 - 02:50 pm
    Tooki: I printed out the map which I consider excellent but my color cartridge is not functioning well. It gets so little use I think it dries out. I must try again.

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 19, 2004 - 03:49 pm
    Very enlightening, Justin. Thank you.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 19, 2004 - 03:54 pm
    "Back in Rome (131) Hadrian could feel that he had made the Empire better than he had found it. Never before, not even under Augustus, had it been so prosperous, and never has the Mediterranean world reached that fullness of life again -- never has it again been the home of so advanced a civilization so widely spread and so deeply shared.

    "The artist in Hadrian was ever competing with the governor. He rebuilt the Pantheon while reorganizing Roman law. No other man ever built so plentifully, no other ruler so directly. The structures erected for him were sometimes designed by him, and were always subject to his expert inspection as they progressed.

    "Rome in all quarters benefited from his rare union of wisdom with power. Si jeunesse savait et viellesse pouvait was in him a riddle solved."

    Hadrian the genius? Despite the fact that he did not have the Caesar genes?

    Robby

    tooki
    April 19, 2004 - 04:19 pm
    Mal's site on the construction of Hadrian's Wall emphasizes the role of the Roman Legions in its construction and their likely feelings of pride at being part of such a grand endeavor.

    When Hadrian left on his perambulations he took with him not the pompous, but the practical, which would mean traveling with the Legions, and building stuff wherever he perambulated.

    Fernand Braudel, author of "Memory and the Mediterranean" makes these comments about the cities and towns "brought into being by a Roman power that shaped them in its own image."

    "Set down in the midst of often primitive local peoples, they marked the staging-posts of a civilization of self-promotion and assimilation. That is one reason they were all so alike, faithfully corresponding to a model that hardly changed over time and place. What towns could have been more "Roman" in character than the military and trading cities along the Rhine-Danube axis? New towns were usually build by the labour of soldiers and local inhabitants. The idea was to have a simple design and work quickly. Starting from the center, the future forum, a north-south line was drawn, the cardo, and an east-west line, the decumanus: they met at right angles in the forum, providing the median axes along which the city would be built. In Lutetia (now Paris, the forum of the small open town on the left bank of the Seine was underneath the present-day rue Soufflot, the cardo ran along the rue Saint-Jacques, the baths were on the site of the Musee de Cluny and the College de France, and a semi-amphitheatre stood on the site today known as the Arenes de Lutece."

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 19, 2004 - 04:46 pm
    I wish someone had told me all about this when I was in Paris. Yes, I did study it at the Sorbonne but no one explained it in the simple language that appeals to a young soldier.

    Robby

    Justin
    April 19, 2004 - 07:22 pm
    I would be remiss if I did not say something about the Pantheon during our discussion of Hadrian and his contributions. Many folks assume the work we see today in Rome is the work of Agrippa during the reign of Augustus. Even Dio Cassius speaks of Agrippa as the builder. However, a building on this same site was constructed for Augustus, the God, by Agrippa. It was in serious disrepair by the time of Hadrian who decided to knock the remains down and start over again. The entablature of the old must have been retained because it retains an Inscription to Agrippa. Hadrian buit in place of the old what we see today and call the Pantheon.

    Few Masonry buildings are as complex in design or as ingenious structurally as the Pantheon. Hadrian's architects went well beyond anything previous architects could have taught them. They carried the concept of the barrel vault and the dome to new heights. The building is mutilayered. The dome is supported above multiple barrel vaults which appear as apses in the interior. Inside, the view is unobstructed by supports of any kind. The masonry dome containing an ocular opening rises above the interior. From the interior the entire dome appears to be a vault but structurally this not the case. The structure is essentially a circular wall. Each succeeding level is constructed of lighter weight aggregate ending in the upper portion of the dome with pumice.

    Who designed it? We are not certain. Apollodorus, a Syrian Greek, had much to do with it's design. However he was more active during Trajan's reign and was actually killed by Hadrian for rudeness during an earlier encounter and a critical response to plans submitted by Hadrian. Hadrian saw himself as an architect. He may be responsible for the clumsy way the attached portico and the rotunda come together.

    The Pantheon was built as temple to all the gods and it remains that today. The Church took it over and that may be the reason we have the building in good condition today. It has been kept in repair by the Vatican. I think the city authorities today care for the building.

    tooki
    April 19, 2004 - 08:46 pm
    A quick note here about Latin, its evolution, and uses. My husband wrote his Master's Thesis on a 12th century logician, William of Sherwood. In order to study ol' Willie he had to translate him first, which proved formidable. Classical Latin he could fight his way through, but the medieval Latin had changed too much for him to manage. He was aided in the translation by his advisor, a classical and medieval Latin scholar (in Philosophy), who decided that someone interested and able to understand medieval logic deserved help in the translation.

    I hadn't thought of this life altering experience in many years. Himself still retains much that he learned. He says he can't get rid of it. Who ever even heard of William of Sherwood?

    Justin
    April 19, 2004 - 10:32 pm
    My goodness, Tooki; I wrote a Master's thesis on William of Sens, the 12 th century architect who rebuilt Canterbury choir after a fire. I had to learn old French to get at him. I can relate to your husbands task.

    William was a popular name in those days but William of Sherwood eludes me. I'll bet your husband is not aware of William of Sens. Why not tell him about Ginny's Latin club here on Senior net. We are translating Cicero and Livy at the moment.

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 20, 2004 - 02:14 am
    Oh, my goodness is right!

    My former husband skipped the master's degree and went from a B.S. in chemistry to a Ph.D., which he took at the University of Maryland in three years. His thesis was on Fluorescence and Semi-Luminescence. I typed it for him . . . . more than one time. This was before he went on to Cryogenic Physics at Duke and Business at Harvard. That has nothing to do with this kind of history, though.

    I don't have a master's degree. I've written 12 completed novels, have 2 unfinished and 1 in the works, as well as I-haven't-even-counted-them short stories, maybe a hundred, maybe more. Does that count for anything? Not to anyone who knows they've never been published. Maybe I should go for Vanity-Publish-on-Demand like some writers I know in WREX, or publish them myself. I know how, since I did all the editing and pre-publication work on Late Harvest IV, a 308 page collection of writing by WREX writers. Don't have the money for that, though, and it takes plenty. Who's your publisher, SCRAWLER? Think they'd be interested in me?

    Mal

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 20, 2004 - 03:11 am
    On the subject of "Williams," I wrote a high school essay about William the Conqueror. (I just don't want to be left out of all this!)

    Rich, are you still with us?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 20, 2004 - 03:31 am
    "For himself Hadrian built a yet simpler home -- the villa whose remains still draw visitors to the pleasant subuarb known to him as Tibur, to us as Tivoli. There, in an estate seven miles in circumference, rose a palace with every variety of room, and gardens so crowded with famous works of art that every major museum in Europe has enriched itself from the ruins.

    "The villa was finished in the last years of Hadrian's life. We do not know that he found happiness there. The revolt of the Jews in 135 embittered him. He put it down without mercy and fretted that he could not end his reign without war.

    "In that same year, still only fifty-nine, he was stricken with a painful and wasting illness -- akin to tuberculosis and dropsy -- which slowly crushed hs body, his spirit, and his mind. His temper became sharper, his manner querulous. He suspected his oldest friends of conspiring to kill and replace him. At last -- perhaps in an illucid interval, and how justly we cannot say -- he ordered that several of them should be put to death.

    "To end the war of succession that was forming in his court, he adopted as heir his friend Lucius Verus. When soon after, Lucius died, Hadrian called to his bedside at Tibur a man with an unblemished reputation for integrity and wisdom, Titus Aurelius Antoninus, and adopted him as his son and successor. Looking far ahead, he advised Antoninus to adopt in turn, and educate for government, two youths then growing up at the court -- Marcus Annius Verus, then seventeen, and Lucius Aelius Verus, then eleven -- respectively the nephew of Antoninus and the son of Licus Verus.

    "The title of Caesar, heretofore borne by the emperors and their agnatic descendants, was conferred by Hadrian upon Antoninus. Thereafter, while the emperors kept for themselves the title of Augustus, they granted the name Caesar to each heir presumptive to the throne.

    "Hadrian's sickness and sufferings had now increased. Blood often gushed from his nostrils. In his distress he began to long for death. The Emperor begged for poison or a sword, but no attendant would accommodate him. He mourned that he, who had the power to put anyone to death, was not himself permitted to die. At last, exhausted and maddened with pain, he died (138), after sixty-two years of life and twenty-one of rule."

    Any final comments about Hadrian as we prepare to move to another emperor?

    Robby

    moxiect
    April 20, 2004 - 08:00 am


    Hi Robby!

    I just popped in to say Hi! I'm still trying to fix my computer! I will be back as soon as I can.

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 20, 2004 - 08:59 am
    We missed you, Moxi!!

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 20, 2004 - 09:27 am
    Here is an ARTICLE of interest to those who were here during "The Life of Greece."

    Robby

    Justin
    April 20, 2004 - 01:28 pm
    Ok, Robby. My grandfather was named William AND I have an autograph of Ted Williams around here somewhere... Enough of William.

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 20, 2004 - 01:56 pm
    TED WILLIAMS!! Oh, JUSTIN, he was my hero when I was growing up. How many times did I see him hit that ball out of Fenway Park! You're a lucky man.

    ROBBY, I saw that article in the Times about finding the fleets of the Persian wars early this morning, and nearly posted a link to it. Did you see the one about how they made beads out of shells in Africa tens of thousands of years ago? Sometimes history leaves me in absolute awe.

    Mal

    Justin
    April 20, 2004 - 06:05 pm
    The site of the Battle of Actium is well known and might be a somewhat easier source of triremes. However, if archeologists wish to probe in Greek waters for older triremes, I have no objection. I hope they reach productive sites before the looters.

    Justin
    April 20, 2004 - 10:12 pm
    The great achitect and builder, Apollodoros, deserves a liitle praise before we leave his period. He worked for Trajan and Hadrian. Built over fifteen structures for those emperors including a great bridge over the Danube. He designed and oversaw the building of Trajan's Markets. Judging from the ruins and what we have of his plans it is clear the structure was one to rival the great galerias we know today. The great covered markets of Napoli owe much to their predecessor, Trajan's Market and it's designer Apollodoros..

    Many cities in the US sport covered markets, some of great size and their designers owe a debt to Apollodoros. Western retailers tend to see large shopping malls as an innovation. They are however, an innovation of long standing.

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 21, 2004 - 03:23 am
    "Of Antoninus Pius there is no history, for he had almost no faults and committed no crimes. He was the most fortunate man that ever wore a crown. We are told that he was tall and handsome, healthy and serene, gentle and resolute, modest and omnipotent, eloquent and a despiser of rhetoric, popular and immune to flattery. The Senate called him Pius as a model of the milder Roman virtues and Optimus Princeps as the best of princes.

    "He was not a man of intellect in the narrower sense of that term. He had no learning and looked with an aristocrat's indulgence upon men of letters, philosohy, or art. Nevertheless, he helped such men richly and invited them often to his home. He preferred religion to philosophy, worshiped the old gods with apparent sincerity, and gave his adopted sons an example of piety that Marcus never forgot.

    "He began his reign by pouring his immense personal fortune into the imperial treasury. He canceled arrears of taxes, made gifts of money to the citizens, paid for many festival games, and relieved scarcities of wine, oil, and wheat by buying these and distributing them free.

    "He ruled the provinces as well as he could without traveling. In all his long reign he was never absent for a day from Rome or its environs. He was content to appoint to provincial governorships men of tried competence and honor. He was anxious to keep the Empire safe without war.

    "It only remained for Antoninus to crown a good life with a peaceful death. In his seventy-fourth year he fell sick of a stomach disturbance and was seized with a high fever. He called Marcus Aurelius to his bedside and committed to him the care of the state. To the officer of the day he gave as watchword aequanimitas. Soon afterward he turnd as if to sleep and died (161).

    "All classes and cities vied with one another in honoring his memory."

    Is there a lesson here? To be forgotten by history, all that is necessary is to be kind and peaceful. As I look back at our Presidents, I separate the ones who stand out (the "war" presidents) from the rest.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 21, 2004 - 04:11 am
    You mean you don't think about Millard Fillmore, ROBBY?

    Antonius

    Temple of Antonius

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 21, 2004 - 04:24 am
    And then there was Martin "what's his name."

    Robby

    tooki
    April 21, 2004 - 06:28 am
    Antoninus what's-his-name must be somewhere HERE

    Sorry for the levity. How about food for thought in Durant's comment,"...the provinces accepted the Empire as the only alternative to chaos and strife."

    Would that other countries would accept Democracy as an alternative to chaos and strife? Was it that easy for the Romans?

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 21, 2004 - 06:33 am
    And then there was Martin "what's his name."

    Robby

    JoanK
    April 21, 2004 - 11:27 am
    Hi. Just back from my trip to sunny California. Every time I got on the computer to check in, my grandson showed up wanting to play computer games with me, so I am really behind. (He is better than me, even though he is only 5). I'm sorry I missed Trajan and Hadrian -- they were both very interesting.

    Some notes:

    On translating latin: I once helped my father translate a mathematical paper by Descarte from latin. it had been lost for hundreds of years, and when found had never been translated into English. My father didn't know latin very well. Unfortunately, neither did Descarte. The latin that scholars wrote in was not the latin found in dictionaries. Fortunately, mathematics has a relatively restricted vocabulary, but it was still quite a job.

    I knew that Rumanian was a latin language, but I was still surprised when I happened on a Rumanian newspaper to see that I could understand it.

    Justin
    April 21, 2004 - 03:32 pm
    Rich; I don't know why you would feel uncomfortable in this discussion of Civilization. We are an objective bunch rather than a "nest of liberals." We do from time to time connect with contemporary politics when it seems relevant in the context of an historical topic. However, we are not even allowed to say,"bush" or "shrub" without being in trouble. ( I am taking a liberty here). We sometimes tiptoe around the margins.

    I referred you to the Studs Terkel discussion because you appeared to be interested in defending the current administration as well as participating in the Civilization discussion. One cannot defend or attack current political administrators by name in this group.

    You will be very welcome in this group under the ground rules Robby spelled out in his post to you.

    Misunderstandings happen using the written word from time to time but one can always go back over the postings and see where one went wrong. That is hard to do in face to face conversations but easy to do in written discussions. I think you will find the medium very pleasant to talk in. So, come join us.

    Justin
    April 21, 2004 - 03:43 pm
    JoanK: Read postings 638, 645 and 646 for similar experiences in Latin and some background on the evolution of Latin as a scholarly language. Robby and Mal ribbed us about our experiences but they were so similar to yours with Descartes that you will enjoy the connection. Good to have you back online. Next time you come to CA. let me know and I will tell Swartzie to welcome you at the airport.

    JoanK
    April 21, 2004 - 04:20 pm
    JUSTIN: I'll do that. Thanks for references to the earlier posts.

    A note on the Roman conquest of Rumania: my husband had a friend who said he was descended from Jews who were sent to Romania by the Romans to civilize it. His story was that the Romans found Romania to be a rough barbaric place by Roman standards. So they took Jewish slaves that they were deporting from Palistine and sent them to Rumania to settle in order to raise the level of civilization. They also sent scandenavian mercenaries to keep the country in order. Do you know anything about this?

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    April 21, 2004 - 05:20 pm
    Tooki, I kept your recent link about the map of the Roman Empire for the Pompeii discussion we will have in July. That map was so clear and it had so many sub links taking you all over the area at the time of the Romans.

    Also I loved your quote: (now Paris, the forum of the small open town on the left bank of the Seine was underneath the present-day rue Soufflot, the cardo ran along the rue Saint-Jacques, the baths were on the site of the Musee de Cluny and the College de France, and a semi-amphitheatre stood on the site today known as the Arenes de Lutece." as I have walked on those streets in Paris not realizing all the history underfoot but letting history speak to me through the beauty of the architecture and of the monuments.

    Good thing there are participants because just history is really a drag sometimes with one emperor after another rising in power and dying just like the rest of us. Durant gives history a romantic twist that keeps it alive. I am enjoying all the posts.

    Eloïse

    Scrawler
    April 21, 2004 - 05:27 pm
    Perhaps to some kindness and peace meant not being strong. But I think that it is a lot harder to show kindness toward the human race at times. It would seem that the Romans thought more of strength in their leaders than they did in those who showed kindnss and created a peaceful empire.

    What do we really remember about Hannibal Hamlin of Maine?

    Justin
    April 21, 2004 - 08:25 pm
    Joan; Did the Romans send Jews to Rumania to colonize the area? This is what I know. The area known today as Rumania was called Dacia in Roman times. There were two efforts to reduce Dacia to a Roman province. One, an attack by Domitian in about 85, failed but ended in a kind of truce with the Dacians. In 110 Trajan built a great bridge across the Danube. He killed the Dacian king and subdued the Dacians reducing the area to a Roman province.

    Dacians were taken to Rome as slaves and the area was colonized by Romans who intermarried with the remaining Dacians. Dacia was rich in extraction idustries. Gold ,silver, and other metals were present in abundance. (Today, we know that Oil is also there. The Ploesti oil fields were a frequent target of American bombers in WW2.)

    Slaves were sent to Dacia to extract the gold and silver from the mines. I suspect that these slaves were Dacians rather than imports.

    Now comes the question of where would Jewish slaves or colonizers come from. Thirty-five to forty years before Jerusalem was reduced to ashes by Titus. Many slaves were taken and many were crucified. Is this a reasonable source for Jewish slaves in 110.

    Titus took Jerusalem in 70 and by 73 is was all over. Masada had ended with a few women and children hidden in cisterns. The questions we must ask ourselves are two-fold. Where would Trajan get Jews to send to Dacia either as slaves or Colonizers and what was Trajan's attitude toward Jews at that time. Would he want to send a rebellious people to colonize a new Roman province?

    tooki
    April 21, 2004 - 08:41 pm
    we know quite a lot about Hannibal Hamlin. THESE facts are taken from a wonderful publication of the US Government, "Congressional Biographical Directory of the United States," to be found in the reference area of any major library.

    Justin
    April 21, 2004 - 11:32 pm
    From time to time people have come and gone from our little discussion. Some have left because there seems to be an overwhelming devotion on the part of historians, including the Durants, to military matters, to conquering, and to bloodshed. However, there is more than that in the history we are examining. As we pass through these various stages of life, it is possible to note that each civilization has made a contribution to the way we live in the modern world. History is not just pages of bloodshed. It contains the wisdom of Plato, and Socrates as well as the mathematical forms of Pythagorus and Archimedes. Careful examination of the remaining artifacts reveals the skill of craftsmen in designing exquisite works of art. Gains in agriculture are slow but evident. Problems of deforestation are treated and lessons left for us to examine. History is not all bloodshed and not one crazy emperor after another. History is the scribe telling us what worked in his time and place so we can learn from his experience.

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 22, 2004 - 03:55 am
    Durant continues:-

    "Marcus Annius Verus was born in Rome in 121. The Annii had come a century before from Succubo, near Cordova. There, it seems their honesty had won them the cognomen Verus, 'true.' Three months after the boy's birth his father died, and he was taken into the home of his rich grandfather, then consul.

    "Hadrian was a freuent visitor there. He took a fancy to the boy and saw in him the stuff of kings. Seldom has any lad had so propitious a youth, or so keenly appreciated his good fortune. He wrote fifty years later:-'To the gods I am indebted for having good grandparents, good parents, a good sister, good teachers, good kinsmen and friends, nearly everything good.' Time struck a balance by giving him a questionable wife and a worthless son.

    "Never was a boy so persistently educated. He was attached in boyhood to the service of temples and priests. He committed to memory every word of the ancient and unintelligible liturgy. Though philosophy later shook his faith, it never diminished his sedulous performance of the old exacting ritual.

    "Marcus liked games and sports, even bird snaring and hunting, and some efforts were made to train his body, as well as his mind and character.

    "But seventeen tutors in childhood are a heavy handicap. Four grammarians, four rhetors, one jurist, and eight philosophers divided his soul among them. The most famous of these teachers was M. Cornelius Fronto, who taught him rhetoric.

    "He thanks his instructors for sparing him logic and astrology -- thanks Diognetus the Stoic for freeing him from superstition -- Junius Rusticus for acquainting him with Epictetus -- and Sextus of Chaeronea for teaching him to live in conformity with nature.

    "It is clear that the leading philosophers of the time were priests without religion rather than metaphsicians without life. Marcus took them so seriously that for a time he almost ruined a naturally weak constitution with ascetic devotions. At the age of twelve he took on the rude cloak of a philosopher, slept on a little straw strewn over the floor, and long resisted the entreaties of his mother to use a couch.

    "He was a Stoic before he became a man."

    I don't see anything here about military training and am wondering about the advantages/disadvantages of early military training compared to the heavy "mental" preparation that Marcus received for becoming an Emperor.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 22, 2004 - 04:39 am
    In Durant's words, "Wealth surrounded Marcus on every side." He was able to be taught by all those intellectuals mentioned in the previous posting. The "average" Roman about whom we reguarly read in this discussion group, had no such opportunities.

    Apparently an identical situation exists in our era. Click HERE to see the educational advantages of money in our time.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 22, 2004 - 06:02 am
    In reference to the article in the Times: I don't see much of any difference between today and when I first entered college 58 years ago.

    Smith College's annual tuition is $37,034, on a par with Harvard's, which is $37,928. In order to pay this, the income of the parents must be right around $200,000 a year. The cost of going to Smith when I started, and the four years I was there, was proportionately the same in relation to income as it is today.

    If I hadn't won a scholarship, I never would have been able even to set foot on the campus and smell the rarified air. You can imagine the adjustment it took for a girl being raised by an electrician and a bookkeeper who were lucky to manage to graduate from high school, when some of their family didn't even have that advantage, to live with and study with children of the rich. No question about it, I had a marvelous education, and there were opportunities available to me that many people never have.

    The difference between now and then is that going to college today seems to be a necessity. In my time it was a luxury. If things haven't changed in almost 60 years and much longer than that, I have my doubts that they ever will.

    Mal

    tooki
    April 22, 2004 - 06:14 am
    As one who has left this discussion on a couple of occasions because of being uncomfortable with the violence, I have given Justin's subject some thought and a bit of research. I think historians dwell on bloody body counts because little is known of the battle itself. Battle tactics employed by the ancients remain largely unknown because the ancients too didn't want to dwell on the violence implied by a victory. There are no Roman Legion manuals on how to train, fight, and win engagements, for example. (At least America has the "Small Wars Manual," which I discussed in an earlier posting.)

    Modern archaeology is being helpful and historical here, with its continuing exploration of sites of famous battle looking for material evidence of what really happened.

    I find that if I get beyond the body count, the history of encounters, engagements, and skirmishes becomes, if not fully engaging, at least informative and instructive.

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    April 22, 2004 - 06:59 am
    I think economy is the fuel that moves civilization forward and soon more countries will join the European Union to make Europe a 26 nation entity. No doubt in my mind that these united countries will be equivalent to the Roman Empire in a few years not only economically, but militarily as they will all step up their defense systems against assailants.

    From European Union to a Super Empire there is only one hurdle left to cross. That one thing missing to reach that status is a common language, which America was wise to implement early on when they made English the only official language. Once the European Union uses one common language, which looks like it will be English, they will not only rival America, but surpass it as THE Super Power.

    IT ALL STARTS WITH THE ECONOMY

    Eloïse

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 22, 2004 - 07:44 am
    ELOISE, I know an economist who would agree with you. He's the one who says the basic reason for war is economic.

    Mal

    tooki
    April 22, 2004 - 08:21 am
    "Quintilius Varus, give me back my Legions," cried Augustus, Durant tell us (p. 217-218). In the aftermath of Aetium, Augustus planned to maintain the Pax Romana "not by passive defense, but by an aggressive policy on every frontier." That was before he lost three legions to Arminius, organizer of a revolt in Germany that trapped and massacred nearly 20,000 legionnaires, deep in the German forests.

    Henceforth the frontier was the Rhine; Germany was left alone to develop as a non-classic culture and free to arm its growing population against a future excursion into Rome. (Perhaps we'll learn in another volume if Germany's non-classic traditions were what fostered its discontent with the Roman Catholic Church, and other elements in its history.)

    Because of the scarcity of Roman survivors and the ancient Germans' illiteracy, there are no eyewitness accounts. Roman accounts, including Cassius Dio's, were written years later, based on second and third hand accounts. (Dios: "Rain began to fall in sheets and a heavy wind scattered the Roman numbers.") Both sides lost track of where the battle occurred, making it impossible for archaeologists to learn more from material evidence.

    All that changed with the 2003 publication of "The Battle That Stopped Rome: Emperor Augustus, Arminius, and the Slaughter of the Legions in the Teutoburg Forest. " A recent review of the book in "Archaeology Odyssey" contains, along with the information given above, these highlights.

    The site was discovered in 1987, in a forest just outside Kalkriese, Germany. Artifacts such as coins, weapons, and human and animal remains convinced experts that it was indeed the site of the infamous Teutoburg massacre.

    Excavation of the battlefield revealed that the Germans had built a solid, 2,000-foot wall out of sod, lime, and wooden fencing. The 5 foot tall wall provided camouflage and protection. In front of it were exceptionally large quantities of artifacts and human remains, indicating that the German's plan had worked.

    The German account of the battle differs from the Romans. Arminius, considered a traitor by the Romans because he was a member of a Legion Auxiliary, was "a mighty liberator and a brilliant tactician who courageously defied Rome and helped give birth to the modern German nation."

    "During the Middle Ages, the story of Arminius (or Herman, to give his German name) was cited frequently by German philosophers." Martin Luther (1483-1546) drew parallels between Hermann's career and his own struggles with the high Church of Rome.

    In New Ulm, Minnesota there is a 45 feet high statue of "Hermann the Liberator."

    Thus, participants of this discussion might concur that the historical consequences of the violent, bloody battles Durant discusses are unforeseeable, as are the historical consequences of the war in Iran.

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 22, 2004 - 12:38 pm
    I am intrigued by the increasing use of "Pius" in the names of the Emperors and naturally think of this use by Popes. And I wonder if there is any connection at all -- even lightly.

    Robby

    Scrawler
    April 22, 2004 - 03:32 pm
    My daughter was in pre-med at Harvard. She worked full time as a manger for a computer company and paid her own tuition. Unfortuantely, her husband lost his job and they had to move to Rhode Island where he got another. She hopes to start at Brown University in the fall. She said that she was not that impressed with Harvard. She was a graduate of Berkeley and said that it was a better atmosphere.

    "Never hope," he admonished himself, "to realize Plato's Republic. Let it be sufficient that you have in some degree ameliorated mankind, and change he opinions of men? And without a change of sentiments what can you make but reluctant slaves and hyprocrites? He had discovered that not all men wanted to be saints; and he sadly rconciled himself to a world of corruption and wickedness. "The immortal gods consent for countless ages to endure without anger, and even to surround with blessings, so many and such evil men; but thou, who hast so short a time to live, art thou already weary?"

    Insteresting statement - this acceptance of corruption and wickedness. Do we have here a thinking emperor? Is it as true today as it was in Roman times.

    Justin
    April 22, 2004 - 04:02 pm
    Robby; What is the "Always Open" red blinking sign that intrudes upon my thoughts? Can we get rid of it?

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 22, 2004 - 05:09 pm
    In this forum we have disussed the Democracy of Ancient Greece and the various classes within Ancient Rome. Apparently there are different styles of Democracy. The post-WWII democracy of Japan was supposedly modeled after that of America and yet click HERE to see what is happening in Japan these days.

    Robby

    Justin
    April 22, 2004 - 07:07 pm
    What is happening in Japan to the freed hostages is not related to the character of their democracy, I don't think, but is a result of Japanese traditions. When the Foreign Office says, " Do not travel to Iraq", it means do not travel to Iraq and the people take the order seriously. Our State Dept does the same thing. Although I don't think our people react in the same way when the warning is ignored. I don't remember whether Terry Waite had permission to go to Iran at the time of the hostage crisis but his home coming was a yellow ribbon welcome. We saw Terry's action as a selfless act. The Japanese might not have welcomed Terry as we did.

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 23, 2004 - 03:12 am
    Wouldn't you then say, Justin, that tradition affects the "character of democracy?"

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 23, 2004 - 03:37 am
    "It was the misfortune of Marcus that his fame as a philosopher, and the long peace under Hadrian and Antoninus, encouraged rebels within and barbarians without. In 161 revolt broke out in Britain, the Chatti invaded Roman Germany, and the Parthian king Vologases III declared war upon Rome. Marcus chose able generals to put down the revolt in the north, but he delegated to Lucius Verus the major task of fighting Parthia.

    "Lucius got no farther than Antioch. For there lived Panthea, so beautiful and accomplished that Lucius thought all the perfections of all sculptural masterpieces had come together in her. To which were added a voice of intoxicating melody, fingers skilled on the lyre, and a mind enriched with literature and philosophy. Lucius saw her and, like Gilgamesh, forgot when he was born.

    "He abandoned himself to pleasure, to hunting, at last to debauchery, while the Parthians rode into terror-stricken Syria. Marcus made no comment on Lucius but sent to Avidius Cassius, second in charge in Lucius' army, a plan of campaign whose military excellence helped the general's own ability not only to drive the Parthians back across Mesopotamia, but to plant the Roman standards once more in Seleucia and Cresphon. This time the two cities were burned to the ground lest they serve again as bases for Parthian campaigns.

    "Lucius returned from Antioch to Rome and was awarded a triumph, which he magnanimously insisted that Marcus should share.

    "Lucius brought with him the invisible victor of the war -- pestilence. It had appeared first among the troops of Avidius in captured Seleucia. It spread so rapidly that he withdrew his army into Mesopotamia, while the Parthians rejoiced at the vengeance of their gods. The retreating legions carried the plague with them to Syria. Lucius took some of these soldiers to Rome to march in his triumph. They infected every city through which they passed and every region of the empire to which they were later assigned.

    "The ancient historians tell us more of its ravages than of its nature. Their descriptions suggest exanthematous typhus or possibly bubonic plague. Galen thought it similar to the disease that had wasted the Athenians under Pericles. In both cases black pustules almost covered the body, the victim was racked with a hoarse cough, and his 'breath stank.'

    "Rapidly it swept through Asia Minor, Egypt, Greece, Italy, and Gaul. Within a year (166-67) it had killed more men than had been lost in the war. In Rome 2000 died of it in one day, including many of the aristocracy. Corpses were carried out of the city in heaps. Marcus, helpless before this intangible enemy, did all he could to mitigate the evil. But the medical science of his day could ofer him no guidance, and the epidemic ran its course until it had established an immunity or had killed all its carriers.

    "The effects were endless. Many localities were so despoiled of population that they reverted to jungle or desert. Food production fell, transport was disorganized, floods destroyed great quantities of grain, and famine succeeded plague. The happy hilaritas tht had marked the beginning of Marcus' reign vanished. Men yielded to a bewildered pessimism, flocked to soothsayers and oracles, clouded the altars with incense and sacrifice, and sought consolation where alone it was offered them -- in the new religions of personal immortality and heavenly peace."

    The power of Woman and Disease.

    Robby

    JoanK
    April 23, 2004 - 10:57 am
    This is the first time in the Roman volume we have seen disease playing an important part in history. We'll see more of it later. Were there signifigant outbreaks of disease in the earlier volumes?

    A fascinating book Guns, Germs, and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies by Jared Diamond. Emphasizes the role disease plays in conquest. He talks about how the conquering army brings new diseases to the conquered (e.g. measles in the new world) which they can't fight, since they have built up no immunity. Here we see the opposite process. Interesting.

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 23, 2004 - 11:45 am
    I don't remember the topic of disease playing a prominent part in the earlier volumes but others here might remember differently.

    Robby

    Ginny
    April 23, 2004 - 12:59 pm
    Hello Classical Enthusiasts, I've come to say Justin your email at worldnet is bouncing and they say to contact you directly (not sure how they think I can do that when it's bouncing, could you drop me a line?)

    I'm sending out the Classical News for the Fall and wanted you to get it (we're doing quite a job classically aren't we, Robby?)ALL of us, it's a growing enthusiasm here on SeniorNet. hahahaha

    Lots of things to entice the Classicist on SeniorNet now and in the Fall.

    tooki
    April 23, 2004 - 02:50 pm
    JoanK: I enjoyed Diamond's book also. The Indians got even for measles; they gave Europeans Syphilis, according to many authorities. It wasn't known in Europe until Columbus returned.

    I don't remember any discussion about disease from the Greece volume, and haven't bumped into any in the Oriental volume, which I am bravely trying to read. (It's no fun all by myself!) I think that the population has to sort of reach a critical mass before a disease becomes a mass epidemic, sort of spontanious combustion. I'm not sure if I read that somewhere. The tracing of the history and spread of disease is a fascinating, albeit relatively new discipline.

    Back in about 1950 in Detroit, Michigan, one of my friends had a job with great evening hours so he could continue to attend Wayne State University. He was a "Clap Chaser." The city had set up free clinics for the treatment of venereal diseases, and part of the ritual of treatment was to provide contacts. His job was to contact the contacts and get them into the clinic for treatment. So, that long ago the framework for tracing disease was available.

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 23, 2004 - 03:08 pm
    We read about poliomyelitis in very ancient history. Saw bas reliefs of victims with withered limbs who looked very familiar to me.

    Mal

    Justin
    April 23, 2004 - 03:25 pm
    I don't recall hearing about disease in previous books. That's interesting. One would think that Greeks like Alexander would contract deseases and spread them around the world. Durant's treatment of Alexander was limited because of space. Scholars who specialize in Alexander may reveal more about disease as an element of his adventures.

    Justin
    April 23, 2004 - 06:54 pm
    Joan:Here is a little more on your friends ancestors who went to Rumania to bolster their economy.

    William Klingaman, in his work on the first century, tells us," during reign of Hadrian, Judea once again erupted in revolt. The Jews were unhappy about an imperial regulation banning circumcision as an unwholesome and alien practice, as well as a prohibition against teaching the Torah. Hadrian further enraged the Jews by building a Roman colony and erecting a temple to Zeus on the ruins of the holy city of Jerusalem. The Jews raised an army under Simeon bar Kosiba and with the blessings of Rabbi Akiba ben Joseph attacked the Romans. The revolt lasted three years and in 135 the Jews were overcome. The survivors were sold as slaves. Now the timing is right and we have Jewish slaves on hand. One question remains unanswered. Would Hadrian send them to Dacia? It was at this time that Rome executed the Ten Martyrs which is remembered as a part of Yom Kippur.

    Justin
    April 23, 2004 - 07:01 pm
    Joan: Klingaman adds a post script that is related to our coming topic on Christianity. He says, "In the aftermath of the second revolt, Jewish expectations of political deliverance by a Messiah became a distant and fading hope."

    Scrawler
    April 23, 2004 - 07:30 pm
    "The retreating legions carried the plague with them to Syria; - The ancient historians tell us of its ravages; their description suggests exanthematous typhus or possibly bubonic plague. Galen thought it similar to the disease that had wasted the Athenians under Pericles."

    I wasn't here for the Greek period. Do any of you remember disease mentioned under Pericles?

    If this disase was the plague, how did the legions get it? I may be wrong about this, but I thought the plague during the Middle Ages came from the fleas that than infected rats etc. Could this have been the way the legions got as well?

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 23, 2004 - 07:49 pm
    Everything you wanted to know about BUBONIC PLAGUE but were afraid to ask.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 23, 2004 - 07:58 pm
    And more about EXANTHEMATOUS TYPHUS. Please note the paragraph referring to Athens in 430 B.C.

    Robby

    tooki
    April 23, 2004 - 09:08 pm
    Diamond calls the sort of epidemic that affected Rome a "crowd disease." They arise "only with the buildup of large, dense human populations. That buildup began with the rise of agriculture starting about 10,000 years ago and accelerated with the rise of cities starting several thousand years ago."

    The conditions necessary to these crowd diseases, in addition to folks settling down in one place and befouling it, were the development of trade routes and constant migration. " By the first century A.D. the Romans has effectively joined the populations of Europe, Asia, and North Africa into one giant breeding ground for microbes. That's when smallpox finally reached Rome, as the Plague of Antoninus, which killed millions of Roman citizens between A.D. 165 and 180."

    Durant says, "Rapidly it swept through Asia Minor, Egypt, Greece, Italy and Gaul; within a year (166-167) it had killed more than had been lost in the war."

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 24, 2004 - 03:08 am
    "The assaults of the central European tribes against the frontier had stopped only for a breathing spell. In this struggle to destroy an Empire and make barbarism free, peace was but an armistice.

    "In 169 the Chatti invaded the Roman regions of the upper Rhine.

    "In 170 the Chauci attacked Belgica, and another force besieged Sarmizegerusa.

    "The Costoboii crossed the Balkans into Greece and plundered the Temple of the Mysteries at Eleusis, fourteen miles from Athens.

    "The Mauri or Moors invaded Spain from Africa, and a new tribe the Longobardi or Lombards, made its first appearance on the Rhine.

    "Despite a hundred defeats, the fertile barbarians were growing stronger, the barren Romans weaker. Marcus saw that it was now a war to the death, that one side must destroy the other or go under. Only a man schooled in the Roman and Stoic sense of duty could have transformed himself so competely from a mystic philosopher into a competent and successful general.

    "The philosopher remained, hidden under the imperator's armor. In the very tumult of this Second Marcomannic War (169-75), in his camp facing the Quadi on the river Granna, a tributary of the Danube, Marcus wrote that little book of Meditations by which the world chiefly remembers him.

    "This glimpse of a frail and fallible saint, pondering the problems of morality and destiny while leading a great army in a conflict on which the fate of an Empire turned, is one of the most intimate pictures that time has preserved of its great men. Pursuing the Sarmatians by day he could write with sympathy of them at night:-'A spider, when it has caught a fly, thinks it has done a great deed. So does one who has run down a hare or who has captured Sarmatians. Are they not all like robbers?'

    "Nevertheless, he fought the Sarmartians, the Marcomanni, the Quadi, the Izyges, through six hard years, defeated them, and marched his legions as far north as Bohemia."

    A philosopher-general. I am trying to think of other military leaders in history or in current times who take the time to think deep thoughts, even while on the battlefield.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 24, 2004 - 04:50 am
    “You boarded, you set sail, you’ve made the passage,” Marcus writes. “Time to disembark. If it’s for another life, well, there’s nowhere without gods on that side either. If to nothingness, then you no longer have to put up with pain and pleasure, or go on dancing attendance on this battered crate, your body--so much inferior to that which serves it. One is mind and spirit, the other earth and garbage.”



    “To be drawn toward what is wrong and self-indulgent, toward anger and fear and pain, is to revolt against nature."

    “Things are wrapped in such a veil of mystery that many good philosophers have found it impossible to make sense of them. Even the Stoics have trouble.”

    “It never ceases to amaze me: we all love ourselves more than other people, but care more about their opinions than our own.”

    “People out for posthumous fame forget that the Generations To Come will be the same annoying people they know now. And just as mortal.”



    “So make your exit with grace,” reads his last line. “The same grace shown to you.”

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 24, 2004 - 07:58 am
    Are our current military leaders interested in philosophical thinking? Click HERE for the answer.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 24, 2004 - 08:21 am
    "It was apparently Marcus' plan to use the Hercynian and Carpathian ranges as a new frontier. If he had scceeded, Roman civilization might have made Germany, like Gaul, Latin in speech and classical in heritage. But at the height of his successes he was shocked to learn that Avidius Cassius, after putting down a revolt in Egypt, had declared himself emperor.

    "Marcus surprised the barbarians with a hasty peace,merely annexing a ten-mile strip on the north bank of the Danube and leaving strong garrisons on the southern side. He summoned his soldiers, told them that he would gladly yield his place to Avidius if Rome wished it, promised to pardon the rebel, and marched into Asia to encounter him.

    "Meanwhile a centurion killed Cassius, and the rebellion collapsed. Marcus passed through Asia Minor and Syria to Alexandria, mourning like Caesar that he had been cheated of a chance for clemency. At Smyrna, Alexandria, and Athens he walked the streets without a guard, wore the mantle of a philosopher, attended the lectures of the leading teachers, and joined with them in discussion, speaking Greek.

    "In the fall of 176, after almost seven years of war, Aurelius reached Rome and was accorded a triumph as the savior of the Empire. The emperor associated Commodus with himself in the victory and now made him, a lad of fifteen, his colleague on the throne. For the first time in nearly a century the principle of adoption was put aside and the hereditary principate was resumed.

    "Marcus knew what perils he was inviting for the Empire. He chose them as a lesser evil than the civil war that Commodus and his friends would wage if he were denied the throne. The plague had burned itself out, and men were beginning to be happy again. The capital had suffered little from the wars, which had been financed with remarkable economy and little extra taxation. Money jingled everywhere.

    "It was the height of Rome's tide and of its Emperor's popularity. All the world acclaimed him as at once a soldier, a sage, and a saint.

    "His triumph did not deceive him. He knew that the problem of Germany had not been solved. Convinced that further invasions could be prevented only by an active policy of extending the frontier to the mountains of Bohemia, he set forth with Commodus, in 178, on the Third Marcomannic War. Crossing the Danube, he again depeated the Quadi after a long and arduous campaign.

    "No resistance remained, and he was about to annex the lands of the Quadi, the Marcomanni, and the Sarmartians (roughly Bohemia and Danubian Galicia) as new provinces, when sickness struck him down in his camp at Vindobona (Vienna). Feeling death's hand, he called Commodus to his side and warned him to carry through the policy which was now so near fulf8illment, and realize the dream of Augustus by pushing the boundary of the Empire to the Elbe. Then he refused all further food or drink. On the sixth day he rose with his last strength and presented Commodus to the army as the new emperor. Returning to his couch he covered his head with the sheet and soon afterward died.

    "When his body reached Rome the people had alrady begun to worship him as a god who for a while had consented to live on the earth."

    Amazing the power of just a few words by a person in power. If Cassius had not said: "I am now the Emperor," present day citizens of Germany might now be conversing in speech derived from Latin.

    Robby

    tooki
    April 24, 2004 - 08:22 am
    Will Epaminondas do? He studied with Pythagorus, looked like a philosopher, and is considered a philosopher-general by Victor Davis Hanson, an academic classicist and military historian.

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 24, 2004 - 08:28 am
    I read your link, Tooki. He was new to me. Would Churchill fit into the philosopher/military leader category?

    Robby

    tooki
    April 24, 2004 - 08:44 am
    Yes, I think Churchill would fit the mold. I think there may be a tendency to underestimate the intellectual and philosophical powers of our contemporary military leaders because of our strong views on war and peace. That is: "War! I'm against it! Anyone for it must be a dummy." That's simplistic; but you get the message.

    If "citizens of Germany...," had been Romanized there would have been no Martin Luther. As I posted above, Luther appealed to Hermann, the German (aka Arminius) liberator's problems with Rome as akin to his own.

    That is, Germans would not have had the tradition of independent religious thought, being Romanized and all. Am I out on a limb here?

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 24, 2004 - 10:02 am
    Tooki:-I can't predict "what would have been," but it makes sense to me.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 24, 2004 - 10:09 am
    Life and Thought in the Second Century

    A.D. 96-192

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 24, 2004 - 10:33 am
    Please note the change in the GREEN quotes in the Heading:-

    "The policies of Nerva and Trajan gave to the literature of their reigns a note of fierce resentment against a despotism that had gone but might come again. Pliny's Panegyric voiced it in welcoming the first of three great Spaniards to the throne. Juvenal seldom sang any other note. Tacitus, the most brilliant of historians, became a delator temporis acti, an accuser of times past, and excoriated a century with his pen.

    "We do not know the date or place of Tacitus' birth, nor even his given name. Probably he was the son of Cornelius Tacitus, procurator of imperial revenue in Belgic Gaul. Through this man's advancement the family was raised from the equestrian class into the new aristocracy.

    "Our first definite fact about the historian is his own statement:-'Agricola, during his consulship (78) agreed to a marriage between myself and his daughter, who might certainly have looked for a prouder connection.' He had received the usual education, and had learned to the full those oratorical arts which enliven his style, that skill in pros and cons which marks the speeches in his histories.

    "The younger Pliny often heard him in the courts, admired his 'stately eloquence,' and acclaimed him as the greatest orator in Rome. In 88 Tacitus was praetor. Thereafter he sat in the Senate and confesses with shame that he failed to speak out against tyranny, and joined in the Senatorial condemnation of Domitian's Senatorial victims. Nerva made him consul (97), and Trajan appointd him proconsul of Asia.

    "He was evidently a man of affairs and practical experience. His books wwere the afterthought of a full life, the product of a leisurely old age, and of a mature and profound mind."

    Any comments about Tacitus?

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 24, 2004 - 10:54 am
    Below is a link to a very interesting site. If you click the links on the Tacitus page you will read about Romans in Batavia.

    Tacitus and the Batavi

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 24, 2004 - 11:42 am
    While we are in the Second Century, let us jump over to the other side, for just a bit "join" the Germanic tribes, and learn a bit about them as we look across at the approaching Roman armies. Click HERE to temporarily become a Germanic tribesman.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 24, 2004 - 01:32 pm
    Roman Army I

    Roman Army II

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    April 24, 2004 - 02:06 pm
    In the link about the Germans Robby I found this interesting: "The German success in taking over the western Roman Empire would have been impossible if Roman institutions had not been disintegrating from within."

    And also here: "Roman cities and the spirit behind the words ''citizen'' and ''civilization'' had already fallen into decay before the mass migrations of the Germans began." in the context of this discussion as we have witnessed the rise and fall of magnificent empires with Durant's words makes me shudder with apprehension.

    Are we also to fall victim of Barbarians as our own civilization is rotting from within?

    I found interesting too the connection between Tradition and Democracy a while back. How timely is this as we are involved in American Democracy trying very hard to implement it in countries which have centuries old traditions who cannot understand what we find so wonderful in our system of government.

    Philosopher-Presidents, Economist-Historians, why not, a lot of Physicians are also Psychologists. Politics is the only profession where members don't have to hold a University degree before they decide on the fate of billions of people and then use their power to bully other billions into submitting to their own brand of government.

    A democracy which does not take into account the traditions of a people is nothing more than a dictatorship.

    Eloïse

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 24, 2004 - 03:11 pm
    During this period of time (Second Century) that Durant has been showing us the growth of the Roman Empire, tribes which apparently came down from what is now Scandinavia and traveled through what is now southern Russia and Germany. This LINK tells us about the Goths who were to come into contact with the Romans.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 24, 2004 - 05:39 pm
    "One theme unites Tacitus, Nerva and Trajan -- hatred of autocracy. Tacitus' Dialogue on Orators attributes the decline of eloquence to the suppression of liberty. His Agricola -- the most perfect of those brief monographs to which the ancients confined biography -- proudly recounts the achievements of his father-in-law as general and governor, and then bittely records Domitian's dismissal and neglect of him.

    "The success of these essays induced Tacitus to illustrate the evils of tyranny by indicting the record of the despots in ruthless detail. He thought:-'The chief duty of the historian is to judge the actions of men, so that the good may meet with the reward due to virtue, and pernicious citizens may be deterred by the condemnation that awaits evil deeds at the tribunal of posterity.' It is a strange conception, which turns history into a Last Judgment and the historian into God.

    "He does not pretend to be a philosopher. His imagination and art, like Shakespeare's, were too creatively active to let him ponder quietly the meaning and possibilities of life. He rejects most astrologers, auguries, portents, and miracles, but accepts some. He is too much of a gentleman to deny the possibility of what so many have affirmed.

    "First and last in Tacitus is the splendor of his style. No other author has ever said so much so compactly. Tacitus was wrong in scorning philosophy -- that is, perspective. All his faults were due to lack of it. If he could have disciplined his pen to the service of an open mind, he would hjve placed his name first on the list of those who have labored to give form and permanence to the memory and heritage of mankind."

    Robby

    Fifi le Beau
    April 24, 2004 - 09:54 pm
    Robby, re your link to the Germanic tribes. I am always interested in how women lived and survived in ancient tribes. The following caught my attention.

    The most popular trials for women in medieval Europe were trial by cold water for commoners and trial by battle of champions for aristocratic women. This may have been a little hard on women of the lower orders. Women float better than men, and men often think that women are permanently in league with the devil!!!

    Trial by water is what this describes for women of the lower orders. They were bound and thrown into the water and if they floated they were guilty.

    I would never have survived the test, although my swimming ability is poor, it would have taken an anchor to keep me down long enough for a "not guilty". I would have popped to the top like a cork.

    It evidently did dawn on these judges that women would not sink as easily as men, but like all the societies we have studied they had an explanation. Women were evil or in this case in league with the devil.

    In early American history when they gave the water test, it was the reverse. When they trussed the subject up like a chicken and threw them into the river, if they could float for a period of time they were deemed not gullty, but if they sank and drowned it was guilty as charged.

    A woman must have been on the rules committee.

    ......

    3kings
    April 24, 2004 - 09:56 pm
    Churchill a Philosopher/ Military genius ? Well, no. To British subjects who knew him by his actions, rather than Americans who knew him only by his press releases, he could lay claim to neither of those two attributes.

    To us in the British Commonwealth, FDR, and even Harry Truman, were head and shoulders above Churchill. As soon as the Pax Americana allowed it, the British people exercised their democratic right to vote him out of office.

    What he did have going for him was " The gift of the gab " as the Irish say. == Trevor

    Scrawler
    April 24, 2004 - 10:23 pm
    Tacitus:

    "The chief duty of the historian," he thought, "is to judge the actions of men, so that the good may meet with the reward due to virtue, and pernicious citizens may be deterred by the condemnation that awaits evil deeds at the tribunal of prosterity." It is a stange conception, which turns history into a Last Judgment and the historian into God.

    I would have to agree with Durant, I think it's the duty of all historians to write both sides of history without personal comment. They should be our guides, but not try and sway us.

    "In the end," he thinks, "character is more important than government; what makes a people great is not its laws but its men."

    I would think it would depend on who the government was. Because men are a part of government, I would think that they would need "character" in order to produce "good" laws for the people.

    "If he could have disciplined his pen to the service of an open mind, he would have placed his name first on the list of those who have labored to give form and permance to the memory and heritage of mankind."

    Oh, I would have to agree with this statement. If we all could disipline our "pens" what master pieces we could pen. But a historian with an open mind. Ah! That would indeed have been a heritage for mankind. Does anyone recall a historian that did write with an open mind? I for one would like to read what he has written.

    Justin
    April 24, 2004 - 11:17 pm
    Marcus Aurelius is part of the second century and with Marcus comes the peak of Roman progress. He spent his life on the frontiers of the empire holding back the hordes threatening to breech the Danube. He left behind secure frontiers, a book of Meditations, and Commodus.

    Commodus was an epicurean with little or no understanding of what was required to keep the empire at peak. The slide down from the peak was precipitous and it carried all the way to the fifth century when the Western Roman emperor had his head split open like a watermellon by an invading Goth king.

    We will now witness the decline of a great power and we will find it interesting to make comparisons with contemporary life.

    JoanK
    April 25, 2004 - 12:32 am
    JUSTIN: thanks for your note on Jewish slaves. Unfortunately, we are no longer in contact with the friend who discussed this, but I'll look for more on it.

    Another interesting comment from Durant"He is too much of a gentleman to deny the possibility of what so many have affirmed." Is this a characteristic of a gentleman?

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 25, 2004 - 02:11 am
    I had an interesting time doing searches about Professor Gerhard Rempel who wrote the "Tribal Migrations" paper most of you are talking about. I had never heard of Western New England College where he taught, and learned it's in Springfield, Massachusetts, not far from where I went to school. It is part of Northeastern University, whose home is in Boston.

    I followed many links on Professor Rempel's pages, one of which led me to the articles on the Roman army by another professor, which I linked. The Tacitus-Batavi link I found myself.

    Interesting to see that the Batavi were fierce fighters, and were part of the Chatti tribe. They occupied the Rhine Island.

    Professor Rempel is now retired and lives on Jupiter Island, Florida. It amused me that he had a page full of midi music files among his pages about history.

    I would agree with Trevor that Franklin Roosevelt and Harry Truman were beyond Churchill, whose rhetoric and delivery often entranced Americans away from the reality of him. Harry Truman was what is called a "homely philosopher". To me he made darned good sense. A really intellectual American politican was Adlai Stevenson.

    Enjoy the music, folks. This is one of Professor Rempel's contributions -- "Spring" by Vivaldi.

    Mal

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 25, 2004 - 04:25 am
    Fifi and Trevor:-I keep thinking I have lost you two and then you come back with some profound thoughts and sometimes with some needed humor. Please comment a bit more often. We need your participation.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 25, 2004 - 04:51 am
    "Decimus Iunius Iuvenalis, son of a rich freedman, was born at Aquinum in Latium (59). He came to Rome for his education and practiced law there 'for his own amusement.' His satires betray the shock of rural tastes struck by the loose turmoil of city life. Yet he appears to have been friends with Martial, whose epigrams show no prejudice in favor of morality.

    "Shortly before Domitian's death, says an uncertain trdition, Juvenal composed, and circulated among his friends, a satire on the influence of dancers at court. The pantomime actor Paris, we are told, took offense and had him exiled to Egypt. We cannot say if the story is true, nor when Juvenal returned. In any case he published nothing until after Domitian's death.

    "The first volume of his sixteen satires appeared in 101, the remainder in four volumes at intervals in a long life. Probably they were unforgiving memories of Domitian's time. The indignation that makes them so vivid and unreliable suggests that a few years of 'the good emperors' had not cured the evils he denounced. Perhaps, again, he chose the satire as a charcteristic Roman form, found models and some material in Lucilius, Horace, and Persius, and molded his fulminations and his wrath on the rhetorical principles that he had learned in the schools.

    "Juvenal takes everything for his subject, and has no trouble in finding in everything some aspect that can bear condemning. He thinks:-'We are arrived at the zenith of vice and posterity will never be able to surpass us.' So far, so true. The root of the evil is the unscrupulous pursuit of wealth. He scorns the plebs that once ruled armies and unmade kings but can now be bought with panem et circenses, bread and circuses. That is one of a hundred phrases to which Juvenal's vitality gave lasting life.

    "He resents the influx of Oriental faces, dress, ways, smells, and gods -- protests against the clannishmess of the Jew -- and likes least of all the 'greedy little Greek' (Graeculus esuriens) -- the degenerate descendant of a people once great but never honest.

    "He loathes the informers who, like Pliny's Regulus, get rich by reporting 'unpatriotic' remarks -- the legacy hunters who flutter around childless old men -- the proconsul living in lifelong luxury on the profits of a term in the provinces -- the clever lawyers who spin out lawsuits like an excreted web.

    "He is disgusted above all by the sexual excesses and perversions -- by the dandies whose manners, perfumes, and desires make them indistinguishable from women -- and by the women who think that emancipation means that they should be indistinguishable from men."

    Let's go for it, folks. There is so much to chew on here! And I think of some of our current satire publications. The New Yorker and Mad Mad World come to mind.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 25, 2004 - 05:22 am
    Juvenal resents the immigrant who has different features and different characteristics. According to THIS ARTICLE nothing has changed. And, of even greater interest, still in that same part of the world.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 25, 2004 - 05:45 am
    How would Juvenal react to THIS CHANGE where former friends of another nationality are now possibly denied immigration?

    Robby

    Shasta Sills
    April 25, 2004 - 08:21 am
    Mal's sites about the Roman legions were interesting. I always wondered what those things were that the soldiers carried. They looked like several lollipops on a stick. I have also wondered why modern soldiers don't wear the protective armor that the Romans wore--those metal corselets that protected the body. Is it because soldiers aren't involved in hand-to-hand combat any more?

    I agree that Churchill was no philosopher. I can't judge his military genius. When I see pictures of soldiers fighting on TV, all I can think of is how young they look. My maternal instinct cries out, "Take those guns away from those children before they get hurt!"

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 25, 2004 - 08:27 am
    Shasta:-I believe that the soldiers in Iraq are wearing armor, similar to what policemen wear.

    Robby

    Justin
    April 25, 2004 - 03:18 pm
    The flak jacket is still a popular form of protection. I think during WW11 they were too heavy and cumbersome to be useful.In Iraq, the flak jacket looks a little like a Kapock jacket. It looks bulky and was probably a pain in the butt to wear in the heat. Roman flak jackets were made of leather and were probably very expensive and therefore in limited use.

    Justin
    April 25, 2004 - 03:23 pm
    Churchill was not much of a military strategist either. Galipoly, Norway, and Market Garden, were some of his more notable failures.

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    April 25, 2004 - 05:07 pm
    Churchill spoke directly to the heart with his rhetoric. After the war, he was ousted because people didn't need him anymore. They felt safe now that the war was over and another PM could manage reconstruction and other pressing problems that arose from the destruction caused by 7 years of bombings, food shortages and almost total halt to industry and trade.

    I am wondering that if he had given Londoners philosophy instead of his famous speeches how they would have reacted during the Blitz? FDR was superb also, but Trueman ended the war with the Atomic Bomb.

    Don't you think that a Philosopher would have a hard time getting elected?

    Eloïse

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 25, 2004 - 05:15 pm
    Juvenal was upset about vice, wealth, bread and circuses, Oriental ways, dishonesty, informers, luxury from governmental pensions, lawyers, sexual excesses and pervasions, women "acting like men."

    Does this push anyone's button?

    Robby

    Justin
    April 25, 2004 - 05:26 pm
    Adlai Stevenson had a hard time getting elected but Woodrow Wilson made the grade ok. The timing must be right for a philosopher to make it to public office. They often appear uncertain in the face certainty. We tend to elect guys who are certain in the face of uncertainty. If I could remember which discussion I am in I would risk mentioning the name of our latest empty-headed-know-it-all.

    Justin
    April 25, 2004 - 05:27 pm
    Juvenal reads like this morning's newspaper.

    Fifi le Beau
    April 25, 2004 - 06:59 pm
    Justin, you always say just the right thing.

    Juvenal is a critic, and a very astute one at that. Some of the things he criticized does push my buttons. The unscrupulous pursuit of wealth is one. Working and accumulating wealth within the law is a good thing. Acquiring wealth by unscrupulous and criminal means is not.

    Another is informers who get rich by reporting "unpatriotic remarks". I dare say that if the laws of Rome were in force in this country today, I would be writing from the dock. I am not unpatriotic, but because I am critical, there are many who write my local paper who would be rich if the laws of Rome were inforce.

    Sex, dandies, and womens emancipation seems normal to me, and I would criticize Juvenal or others who promote that line of thinking.

    Critical thinking is essential for a democracy to survive, and I intend to do my part. Keeping my cool is the hard part. There are wonderful critical posters in SOC who have taught me a thing or two about measured criticism.

    Juvenal used satire which can be devastating to the person being satirized if well written. Juvenal seemed good enough that it got him exiled. Perhaps I should try my hand at satire, exile sounds better than the alternative under the "patriot act".

    ......

    Justin
    April 25, 2004 - 08:16 pm
    How much insecurity are we willing to tolerate before giving up our personal freedoms? Alternatively, one may ask," How much personal freedom are we willing to sacrifice to attain safety from attack by unfriendly forces?

    Personal security and personal freedom are opposing forces. Within certain limits one's personal security can be increased at the expense of personal freedom. However, as personal freedoms disappear one reaches a relationship in which security diminishes along with freedom. When this relationship is reached and freedom diminishes, security also diminishes. The question then of how much freedom one is willing to sacrifice then, it seems to me, is related to our tolerance for violence and our control of fear.

    These are also national questions as well as personal ones and the President must deal with the same questions on that level. I wish he understood the question a little better and that the Supreme Court were not so partisan.

    It occurs to me that this current period of foreign threat is only the second time in history that the US mainland has been attacked. We have always been able to keep our basic freedoms intact at home while sending our young out to cope with the violence and to deal with fear. But that has ended. We can no longer send our warriors out to bear the brunt of attack. They can not find the enemy for the enemy is in our midst. That is why Iraq is the wrong war. We must find a way to fight the enemy at home and that is why this debate about freedom and security is so significant. The question can not be ignored.

    Justin
    April 25, 2004 - 08:21 pm
    I think my last message belongs in Studs' discussion. Sorry, Robby. Sometimes I am not quite sure which discussion I am posting in.

    Scrawler
    April 25, 2004 - 10:45 pm
    "We are arrived at the zenith of vice," he thinks, " and posterity will never be able to surpass us."

    I wonder what Juvenal would have thought about today's world.

    "The root of the evil is the unscrupulous pursuit of wealth."

    I would say the root of the evil would also be the pursuit of power. In fact I'd have to say that "power" wins over "wealth". But if one has wealth one can also pursue power.

    "A good wife is a rare bird, stranger than a white crow."

    Seems to me that Juvenal has an issue with women.

    "But only a fool will pray for a long life."

    I think it would depend on what one was doing. On the other hand I think his advice: "Live simply, cultivate your garden, desire only so much as hunger and thirst, cold and heat demand; learn pity, be kind to children, keep a sane mind in a healthy body" would be good advice in any time period.

    "Our forefathers," he wrote, "complained, we complain, and our descendants will complain, that morals are corrupt, that wickedness holds sway, that men are going from bad to worse."

    Hum! I suppose he's right.

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 26, 2004 - 03:34 am
    Hope Dies Last closes out at the end of this week, Justin, so you won't have that conflict.

    Robby

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    April 26, 2004 - 04:17 am
    "He thinks we are arrived at the zenith of vice and posterity will never be able to surpass us.' So far, so true. The root of the evil is the unscrupulous pursuit of wealth." Like Justin, I think I am are reading today's newspaper.

    "the legacy hunters who flutter around childless old men" Could we say today "around old women" as there are so many more of them.

    "the proconsul living in lifelong luxury on the profits of a term in the provinces" Except that today politicians' overindulgeances are spread out on the front page of Scandal Sheets for all to see and that would cause them not to flount their wealth as much.

    Eloïse

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 26, 2004 - 04:18 am
    "When he was born at Como in 61 he was named Publius Caecilius Secundus. His father owned a farm and villa near the lake and held high office in the town. Orphaned early, Publius was adopted and educated first by Virginius Rufus, governor of Upper Germany, and then by his uncle Caius Plinius Secundus, author of the Natural History. This busy scholar made the boy his son and heir and died soon afterward.

    "According to custom, the youth took his adoptive father's name, causing confusion for 2000 years. At Rome he studied under Quintilian, who formed his taste on Cicero and must receive some of the credit for the Ciceronian fluency of Pliny's style. At 18 he was admitted to the bar. At 39 he ws chosen to deliver an address of welcome to Trajan. In the same year he ws made consul -- in 103, augur -- in 105, 'Curator of the Bed and Banks of the Tiber and the City Sewers.'

    "He took no fees or gifts for his legal services, but he was a rich man and could afford to be magnanimous. He had properties in Etruria, at Beneventum, Como, and Laurentum, and offered 3,000,000 sesterces for another.

    "Like many aristocrats of his time, he amused himself by writing. -- at first a Greek tragedy, then some poems, lighthearted and occasionally obscene. Pliny reveals himself with half the candor and all the falicity of Montaigne. He has an author's inevitable vanity, but so openly that it hardly offends. What is especially pleasing in him is his love for his home, or his homes. He does not denounce Rome but he is happier in Como or Laurentium, near the lake or the sea. There his chief enterprises are reading and doing nothing.

    In other words, what we call the "good life.".

    Robby

    tooki
    April 26, 2004 - 05:43 am
    announced the "Portland Oregonian" this morning.

    It was 50 years ago today that Polio ceased being an absolutely terrorizing threat, vaccinations began in Oregon, April 26, 1954.

    Post-polio syndrome strikes about half of those who had the disease. These polio survivors are "highly motiviated people," say the doctors, adding that "they need to get plenty of rest."

    Mal: I hope you are getting plenty of rest and will continue on your 12th book. Congratulations on surviving with your spirit intact.

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 26, 2004 - 06:00 am
    Well, thank you, TOOKI. I remember the very minute I heard that Jonas Salk had succeeded with his polio vaccine. I was overjoyed; then I realized it was too late for me.

    If anything, in my life polio has been a stimulus to do something for the past 68 years since I had it. (A technicisn in a brace shop once told me I had polio in the Year One.)

    I've never seen definitive enough a statement of what Post Polio Syndrome is for me to believe in it. I see a lot of polio survivors calling what I refer to as a normal aging process as Post Polio Syndrome. C'est la difference, I guess.

    It's my 15th book, and I'm about to start writing Chapter 19.

    Mal

    tooki
    April 26, 2004 - 06:06 am
    According to contemporary "post modern" theorists, objectivity is as elusive as a metaphorical Heisenberg indeterminate particle, squirming as it is observed.

    Tacitus suffers at Durant's hands: other biographers are not as harsh, saying that since he did not write according to the canons of modern historiography, it is unwise to judge him by them. His aim was to provide a narrative that would hold the reader's attention.

    Maybe Tacitus' descriptions struck a chord with Durant because he saw things in them already apparent in America, when he was writing in the 1940s.

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 26, 2004 - 12:06 pm
    "Pliny had a hundred friends, some great, many good. His circle buzzed with literary and musical amateurs, with public recitals of poetry and speeches. It was an elegant and amiable society, rich in loving marriages, parental affection, humane masters, sincere friendships, and fine courtesies.

    "Most of the men whom Pliny describes were members of the new aristocracy stemming from the provinces. They were not idlers, for nearly every one of them held public office and shared in the admirable administration of the Empire under Trajan.

    Pliny disappears from literature and h history, leaving behind him a redeeming picture of a Roman gentleman, and of Italy in her happiest age."

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 27, 2004 - 04:21 am
    "The spirit of the Emperor had helped to form the art and morals of his time. The games were less cruel, the laws more considerate of the weak, marriage was apparently more lasting and content. Immorality continued, openly in a minority, clandestinely in the majority, at all times. But it had passed its peak with Nero and had ceased to be fashionable.

    "Men as well as women were returning to the old religion or devoting themselves to new ones. The philosophers approved. Rome was now teeming with them, invited welcomed, or tolerated by Aurelius. They took full advantage of his generosity and his power -- crowded his court -- received appointments and emoluments -- delivered countless lectures -- and opened many schools.

    "In their imperial pupil they gave the world the cuolmination and disintegration of ancient philosophy.

    A new Rome?

    Robby

    Justin
    April 27, 2004 - 12:48 pm
    Wait. Be patient. Rome will be same old, same old in a few short years. During Aurealius's reign a peak is reached. The borders are secure though there is constant pressure to make a breach. The philosphers are in the ascendency and some of the nastiness that is Rome has subsided. Aurelius is everything one could hope for in a ruler but his son, who is an empty headed epicurean, is coming. He will lead the decline.

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 27, 2004 - 06:21 pm
    "When the officer of the guard asked the dying Marcus for the watchword of the day, he answered:-'Go to the rising sun. My sun is setting.' The rising sun was then nineteen, a robust and dashing youth without inhibitions, morals, or fear. One would have expected of him, rather than of Marcus the ailing saint, a policy of war to victory or death. Instead, he offered the enemy immediate peace.

    "They were to withdrw from the vicinity of the Danube, to surrender most of their armms, return all Roman prisoners and deserters, pay Rome an annual tribute of corn, and persuade 13,000 of their soldiers to enlist in the Roman legins. All Rome condemned him except the people. His generals fumed at allowing the trapped prey to escape and fight again another day. During the reign of Commodus, however, no trouble came from the Danubian tribes.

    "The young prince, though no coward, had seen enough of war. He needed peace to enjoy Rome. Back in the capital, he snubbed the Senate and loaded the plebs with unprecedented gifts -- 725 denarii to each citizen. Finding no field in politics for his exuberant strength, he hunted beasts on the imperial estates and developed such skill with sword and bow that he decided to perform publicly.

    "For a time he left the palace and lived in the gladiators' school. He drove chariots in the races, and fought in the arena against animals and men. Presumably the men who opposed him took care to let him win. But he thought nothing of fighting, unaided and before breakfast, a hippopotamus, an elephant, and a tiger, which made no distinctions for royalty.

    "He was so perfect a bowman that with a hundred arrows he killed a hundred tigers in one exhibition. He would let a panther leap upon some condemned criminal and then slay the animal with one arrow, leaving the man unhurt to die again.

    "He had his exploits recorded in the Acta Diurna and insisted on being paid, out of the Treasury, for each of his thousand combats as a gladiator."

    Any comments?

    Robby

    3kings
    April 27, 2004 - 07:11 pm
    A thousand Gladiatorial cobats ? The outcome of those combats must have been pre-set. Like in Hollywood movies, where the good American guy always wins in the final scene . BG. == Trevor

    tooki
    April 27, 2004 - 08:36 pm
    Justin says. Rome will return to its old ways. So then, Justin, you do not subscribe to the palimpsest theory of history?

    tooki
    April 27, 2004 - 08:42 pm
    This is out of sequence, but I can't resist.

    Remember previously that one of Martial's couplets begat the famous, "I do not like thee, Dr. Fell."

    Here's a current version:

    I do not love thee, Mr. Bush
    For all the whoppers that you push.
    I hope that Kerry spanks your tush.
    I do not love thee, Mr. Bush


    I'm sorry! I'm sorry! No more political comments; I promise.

    tooki
    April 27, 2004 - 08:49 pm
    Was He Any Good? We'll never know.

    tooki
    April 27, 2004 - 08:58 pm
    Notice that his wide belt in This Picture looks like those boxing and wrestling belts that are worn by current world champions.

    There are more wonderful pictures of him in his lion skin, but I suppose I'd better go now.

    JoanK
    April 27, 2004 - 09:03 pm
    Great lion skin!! After centuries of cleanshaven Romans we're getting beards. The effect of letting the provincials rule?

    Justin
    April 27, 2004 - 10:14 pm
    I first encountered the word "palimpsest" while researching the work methods of medieval architects. Working on site, the architect had a foor given over to drawing in sand. When the work was complete the drawing was erased and the floor prepared for a new sketch. The floor was called a palimpsest.

    The palimpsest theory of history must refer to a failure of historical events and responses to replicate. I was thinking last night that the prior administration and the current one resemble Marcus and Commodus- one at the peak and one at the point of down turn. Think of all the good things in the prior administration and the lack of good in the current administration. Robby, I think that's fair comment.

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    April 28, 2004 - 02:04 am
    Justin, I am happy that you explained 'palimpsest' for me. I could always look it up, but.... Interesting.

    Before I go, this LINK shows some of the cities along the shores of the beautiful "blue" Danube that I visited once.

    "For a time he left the palace and lived in the gladiators' school, Commodus was more of a sportsman than a statesman, but is that why he was not very famous? Kings being notorious for war but not for peace!

    Is this the notoriety a certain President is seeking? because he certainly is not a sportsman.

    Eloïse

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 28, 2004 - 03:10 am
    Is the Pliny we've been talking about Pliny the Elder or Pliny the Younger? I've found a very interesting letter by Pliny the Younger.

    Yes, I wish we'd talk less about specific figures in the United States government here. I know these references are keeping a participant who is interested in Ancient History away. I think that's unfortunate, because I'm sure with his knowledge of history he has much offer to this discussion.

    Mal

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 28, 2004 - 03:29 am
    Not too long ago a new person entered our discussion here complaining that everyone was so liberal. At that point we were busy talking about Ancient Rome and there were no political comments. We pointed out that we are not a political forum. We have not seen this person since and I was about to state that he, who complained about a political bias, was the only one making a political comment.

    Now I can no longer say that.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 28, 2004 - 03:50 am
    "When Marcus died, Rome had reached the apex of her curve and was already touched with decay. Her boundaries had been extended beyond the Danube, into Scotland and the Sahara, into the Caucasus and Russia, and to the gates of Parthia. She had accomplished for that confusion of peoples and faiths a unity not of language and culture, but at least of economy and law.

    "She had woven it into a majestic commonwealth within which the exchange of goods moved in unprecedented plenty and freedoms. For two centuries she had guarded the great realm from barbarian inroads and had given it security and peace. All the white man's world looked to her as the center of the universe, the imnipotent and eternal city.

    "Never had there been such wealth, such splendor, or such power.

    "Nevertheless amid the prosperity that made Rome brilliant in this second century, all the seeds were germinating of the crisis that would ruin Italy in the third. Marcus had contributed heavily to the debacle by naming Commodus his heir and by wars that centralized ever more authority in the hands of the Emperor. Commodus kept in peace the prerogatives assumed by Aurelius in war. Private and local independence, initiative, and pride withered as the power and functions of the state increased. The wealth of nations was drained away by ever-rising taxation to support a self-multiplying bureaucracy and the endless offensivees of defense.

    "The mineral wealth of Italy was diminishing. Pestilence and famine had taken bitter toll, the system of tillage by slaves was failing, governmental expenditures and doles had exhaustedd the Treasury and debased the currency. Italian industry was losing its markets in the provinces through provincial competition, and no economic statesmanship appeared to make up for a languishing foreign trade by a wider distribution of buying power at home.

    "Meanwhile the provinces had recovered from the exactions of Sulla, Pompey, Caesar, Cassius, Brutus, and Antony. Their ancient skills had revived, their industries were flourishing, their new wealth was financing science, philosophy, and art. Their sons replenished the legions, their generals led them. Soon their armies would hold Italy at their mercy and make their generals emperors.

    "The process of conquest was finished and was to be reversed. Henceforth the conquered would absorb the conquerors."

    It is obvious from what is stated here that the Roman Empire is at a turning point. And Durant tells us that reading history is meaningless unless we pause to examine our own civilization and perhaps to compare. It can be so easy to turn this forum into a political one so -- please -- let us choose our words carefully.

    I remember during the World War hearing Rome being called the "Eternal City" but only now am I beginning to understand why it was given this term.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 28, 2004 - 04:41 am
    You know, up to now we've seen Rome strong, and we've seen it weak, and it survived. Perhaps something should be said about Rome's enemies, these barbarians we hear about. Had they grown stronger without anyone noticing? People acted surprised about the attack on this country September 11, 2001. Had the Al Quaeda grown stronger while we weren't looking? Or does the fall of a civilization come not from a strong enemy, but because of some fundamental weakness within its government? Or is it a combination of both?

    Mal

    tooki
    April 28, 2004 - 06:48 am
    2000 years of confusion is enought.

    Pliny the Elder, AD 23-79, uncle of Pliny the Younger, AD 61-c112. The Younger wrote letters like yours, Mal.

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 28, 2004 - 11:55 am
    Pliny and Trajan on the Christians

    tooki
    April 28, 2004 - 01:24 pm
    that you choose to interpret that innocuous, satirical doggerel, which I posted, as a political statement. It was intended as a light hearted (but perhaps heavy handed) attempt to trace the life of a Martialian satiric epigram from ancient Rome, to the 17th century Dr. Fell, then to the current day.

    I feel as though I have been chastised by my father, as in, "We don't use those words around here." I need clarification.

    Your headings ask: "What are our origins; Where are we now; Where are we headed?" You go on to request: "Share your thoughts with us; Share with us your opinions."

    Is it possible to share thoughts and opinions without making comparisons? How can one give one's ideas about, say, the silliness of Commodus without, perhaps, comparing him to a contemporary figure. (It's fair to say Commodus was silly, but contemporary figures aren't?) It makes for a tame and timid discussion if these kinds of comparisons, opinions and views are not permitted.

    I understand minimizing naming names, speaking in generalities, and avoiding confrontations. But are the members, or prospective members, of this group so protective of their views and opinions in these areas that they do not wish to see contrary views posted? I had assumed we were to examine ideas, not draw up sides.

    I'm sorry the silly epigamic doggerel wasn't taken in the sprit of "satire lives" that it was intended. I hope this discussion can continue in an open, forthright, and instructive manner.

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 28, 2004 - 01:38 pm
    TOOKI, I'm the one who thought that verse was political and unnecessary, not ROBBY.

    Today I was reminded of the fact that when I was about 7 years old people were saying my country would fall just like the Roman Empire. That's a long time ago, folks -- 1935. The president was FDR. The idea of my country collapsing scared me to death, and I was just a little girl. I think I"ve heard somebody say that every year since.

    Mal

    Justin
    April 28, 2004 - 04:38 pm
    Tooki: I understand your concern. While reviewing history may be useful as a simple exercise, the real value of discussion lies in contemporary comparisons. If that were not possible, this discussion would attract few.

    At the same time, Robby's rule, that we not name contemporary political figures is a useful constraint, for it keeps partisan politics at bay and allows objective comparisons to enter. Some times the rule is kept in the breach ( I am occasionally guilty of this misdemeanor) but I am convinced that the rule keeps away the born party enthusiast as well as the born-again party enthusiast.

    Please do not feel chastised. Recognize the value of the rule. Know that when you breach it again, as you surely will, you risk exposure of the discussion to participants who rightfully belong in another discussion.

    Your satires and frequent pointed humor adds much to a discussion that sometimes becomes much too serious. We are often impressed with our own erudition and your remarks tend to lighten things up from time to time. I think as we approach Christianity we will need, more and more, some one to poke us into a lighter vein.

    Justin
    April 28, 2004 - 05:35 pm
    Tooki; I sent your doggerel, your parody of Martial's Dr. Fell, on to my daughters. They are concerned that we have reached some sort of peak in our social advance and are now in the throes of a decline. My grand daughters complain in like manner. I tell them therapy is on the way.

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 28, 2004 - 08:19 pm
    I am reminded of a constant topic discussed with my patients wherein we examine the difference between being selfish and self-caring. There is a very fine nebulous line just barely distinguishing one from the other. We try (my patient and I) to separate one from the other and find ourselves vacillating back and forth wondering which side we are on. No matter, however, where we find ourselves, the important point is our increased level of awareness -- to know that although there is a similarity, a difference also exists in that one includes love and one does not. Ultimately, we each realize that our seeing it one way or another depends strongly upon our individual feelings and our backgrounds.

    So it is (in my opinion) with deciding whether a comment is a political one or a historical one with political overtones. One person's meat is another person's poison.

    Or, putting it in Ancient History phraseology -- one person's Mede is another person's Persian.

    Robby

    3kings
    April 28, 2004 - 10:15 pm
    Oh! Robbie ! BG. Trevor

    JoanK
    April 28, 2004 - 10:20 pm
    Grooooan

    Scrawler
    April 28, 2004 - 10:49 pm
    I think the people of today like the ancient Romans have allowed others to think for them. During war or when you are under attack you tend to be alert. But during relative peaceful times we allow ourselves to look as if we are not concerned about our country. Some have said that before 9/ll that we were more concerned about who was going to win the Super Bowl than what was happening to our security. That probably was not true, but those that we had put our trust in to prevent such a thing from happening didn't interpert it as the threat that it was. Would the attack have happen any way? I'd have to say yes. I doubt that given our nature as Americans we would been able to stop it. And now we just like the Romans did have exchanged our freedom for security. "The Golden Thoughts" of Aurelius were often leaden thoughts, weighted down with the suspicion that Rome's problems could not be solved, that the multiplying barbarians could not long be held back by a sterile and pacific breed. Stoicism, which had begun by preaching strength, was ending by preaching resignation." Is this what we have to look forward to?

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 29, 2004 - 03:54 am
    "As if conscious of these omens and problems, the mind of Rome, at the close of the Antonine age, sank into a cultural and spiritual fatigue. The practical disfranchisement of first the assemblies and then the Senate, had removed the mental stimulus that comes from free political activity and a widespread sense of liberty and power.

    "Since the prince had almost all authority, the citizens left him almost all responsibility. More and more of them, even in the aristocracy, retired into their families and their private affairs,. Citizens became atoms, and society began to fall to pieces internally precisely when unity seemed more complete. Disillusionment with democracy was followed by disillusionment with monarchy.

    "The 'Golden Thoughts' of Aurelius were often leaden thoughts, weighed down with the suspicion that Rome's problems could not be solved, that the multiplying barbarians could not long be held back by a sterile and pacific greed.

    "Stocism, which had begun by preaching strength, was ending by preaching resignation. Almost all the philosphers had made their peace with religion. For 400 years Stocism had been to the upper classes a sustitute for religion. Now the substitute was put aside, and the ruling orders turned back from the books of the philosphers to the altars of the gods.

    "And yet paganism, too, was dying. Like Italy, it was flushed only with governmental aid and was nearing exhaustion. It had conquered philosophy, but already its temple precincts heard reverently the names of invading deities.

    "The age was heavy with the resurrection of the provinces and the incredible victory of Christ."

    I think of a person who is suffering from deep Clinical Depression. He is no longer interested in the items that previously interested him, his appetite diminishes, his ability to concentrate lessens, fatigue sets in,and ultimately he stays in bed and shuts out the world by pulling the blankets over his head. Paradoxically he may not feel sad or recognize his illness. I wonder if we may not diagnose the Rome of that period with a similar ailment without its recognizing what was happening to it.

    Robby

    Ginny
    April 29, 2004 - 05:33 am
    Malryn, will you email me, please, am not sure which email address to use for you? Thanks,

    ginny

    tooki
    April 29, 2004 - 07:42 am
    Although intended as a metaphor, I think it's too anthropomorphic a comparison. It implies that the patient can be cured somehow - take some pills, counseling, or maybe it will just go away. Like, maybe Rome could just go back to the old Republician ways, have more children, or assume more personel responsibility.

    Rome's malaise by this time was terminal, at least in Durant's view, and would end only when it was swallowed by Christianity. It is, after all, called the Holy ROMAN Empire.

    tooki
    April 29, 2004 - 07:45 am
    I get the point, but I do not get the pun. Any help, any body? At least from the groans I think it's a pun.

    Justin
    April 29, 2004 - 12:26 pm
    The contents of the phrase, "one person's Mede is another person's Persian", comes out of Oriental Heritage". Robby uses it to explain his reasons for letting your doggerel go by. Folks may groan over these connections but they are self satisfying to put together. They fall in the camp of the self caring rather than the camp of the selfish and tho one groans in response one also appreciates the connection.

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 29, 2004 - 01:22 pm
    The Empire

    146 B.C. - A.D. 192

    JoanK
    April 29, 2004 - 01:24 pm
    A groan to a pun is the equivelant of a laugh to a joke: recognition that it was a bad (i.e. good) one.

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 29, 2004 - 01:41 pm
    "Let us stop at this precarious zenith and try to realize that the Empire was greater than Rome. We have lingered unduly at this brilliant center which hypnotizes historians as it fascinated provincials. In truth the vitality of the great realm no longer dwelt in the corrupt and dying capital. Its surviving health and strength, much of its beauty, most of its mental life lay in the provinces and in Italy. We can have no just idea of what Rome meant, nor of its astonishing achievement in organization and pacification, until we leave it and surrender ourselves to a tour of the thousand cities that made up the Roman world.

    "The elder Pliny asked:-'How shall I commence this undertaking? So vast is the number of places -- what man could enumerate them all -- and so great is their individual renown!'

    "Around and south of Rome lay Latium, once her mother, then her enemy, then her granary, then a paradise of suburbs and villas for Romans who had both money and taste.

    "South and west from the capital fine roads and the Tiber led to the rival harbors of Portus and Ostia on the Tyrrhenian Sea. Ostia had its great age in the second and third centuries of our era.

    "Merchants and longshoremen crowded like those of Rome today. As late as the fifteenth century a Florentine traveler marveled at the wealth of the town and its sumptous adornment. Some surviving columns, and an altar elegantly designed and carved with delicate floral reliefs, show that even this commercial population had absorbed the classic conception of the beautiful.

    "Southward on the coast rose Antium (Anzio) where the richest Romans, many emperors, and favored gods had palaces or temples reaching out into the Mediterranean to catch any passing breeze. In its three miles of ruins were found such master sculptures as the Borghese Gladiator and the Apollo Belvedere.

    "Near by an extant monument reminds 'excellent citizens,' now nineteen centuries dead, that they have recently had the pleasure of seeing eleven gladiators die in combat with ten ferocious bears.

    "To the north, beyond the coastal hills, Aquinum gave birth to Juvenal, and Arpinum plumed itself on Marius and Cicero. Twenty miles from Rome was the old town of Praeneste (Palestrina), its pretty homes built upon terraces in the mountain slopes, its gardens Fortuna Primigenia, who gave good luck to women in childbirth, and exchanged oracles for cash.

    "Tusculum, ten miles from Rome, was similarly rich in gardens and villas. Here old Cato was born, and Cicero placed his Tusculan Disputations.

    "Most renowned of Rome's suburbs was Tiber (Tivoli), where Hadrian spread his country home and Zenobia, Queen of Palmyra, spent her captive years."

    Maybe Mal can help us with some maps.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 29, 2004 - 02:41 pm
    I hope this is okay. I'm trying to get the May-June issue of Sonata ready to go on the web, so am a little busy right now.

    Roman Empire - Provinces

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 29, 2004 - 06:24 pm
    Here are TRADE ROUTES of the Roman and other empires.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 29, 2004 - 06:27 pm
    Consider this EXTENSIVE ROAD SYSTEM of the Roman Empire.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 29, 2004 - 06:38 pm
    "North of Rome, Etruria experienced under the Principate a modest resurrection. Perusia was largely destroyed and partly restored by Augustus, whose artists beautified there an old Etruscan arch. Aarretium gave Maecenas to Rome and pottery to the world.

    "Pisae was already hoar with age. It traced its name and origin to a colony of Greeks from Pisa in the Peloponnesus, and made a living by organizing the lumber business along the Arnus River.

    "Farther up the same stream was a young Roman colony, Florentia, rare among cities because it probably underestimated its fuure. At the northwestern extremity of Etruria were the quarries of Carrara. Rome's finest marble was conveyed thence to the port of Luna, and went by ship to the capital.

    "Genus had long served as an outlet for the goods of northwestern Italy. As far back as 209 B.C. we hear of the Carthaginian destroying it in a ruthless commercial war.

    "It has been destroyed many times since, and has always achieved a fairer reincarnaton."

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 29, 2004 - 06:46 pm
    Here is the STORY of Italian marble from Carrara.

    Robby

    JoanK
    April 29, 2004 - 07:39 pm
    Three fascinating links. Considering the speed of travel, the scope of trade routes is mind-boggling. And how many roads they built!!

    When I was in Israel, I was startled to see that sink-tops and floors, even in our immegrant housing, were routinely made of marble -- lower grade of course than the marble shown in your link, but marble. The floors had drains in them, and you kept them clean by dumping a pail of water on them and sweeping it down the drain. I wish I had those floors here.

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 30, 2004 - 04:03 am
    "Under the Alps lay Augusta Laurinorum, founded by the Taurini Gauls and made a Roman colony by Augustus. Its ancient pavements and drains can still be seen under the streets of Turin. A massive gate survives from Augustan days to remind us that the city was once a fortress against invaders from the north.

    "Here the lazy Padus (Po), rising in the Cottian Alps, turns eastward 250 miles to divide north Italy into what the early republic knew as Transpadane and Cispadane Gaul. In all the peninsula the valley of the Po was the region most fertile, populous and prosperous. At the foot of the Alps were those lakes -- Verbanus (Maggiore), Larius (Como), and Benacus (Garda) --whose splendor feasted the eye and soul of those generations as well as ours.

    "From the younger Pliny's Comum a main trade route led south to Mediolanum (Milan). Settled by the Gauls in the fifth century B.C., it was already a metropolis and educational center in the days of Virgil. By A.D. 286 it would replace Rome as the capital of the Western Empire.

    "Verona controlled the trade over the Brenner Pass and was rich enough to have an amphitheater recently restored) seating 25,000 spectators.

    "Along the winding Po rose Placentia (Piacenza), Cremona, Mantua, and Ferrara -- originally frontier towns designed to hold the Gauls at bay.

    "North of the Po and east of the Adige lay Venetia. The district took its name from the Veneti, early immigrants from Illyria. Herodotus tells how the leaders of these tribes annually brought together the marriageable lasses in their villages, put a price upon each according to her beauty, wed her to the man who paid the price, and used the money to provide alluring dowries for the less alluring girls. Venice itself was not yet born, but at Pola on the Istrian peninsula, at Tergeste (Trieste), Aquileia, and Patavium (Padua), substantial cities crowned the head of the Adriatic. Pola still has from Roman days a stately arch, a pretty temple, and an amphitheater only less impressive than its model, the Colosseum.

    "South of the Po a line of important cities ran from Placentia through Parma, Mutina (Modena), Bononia (Bologna), and Faventia (Faenze) to Ariminum. Here, at Rimini, is one of the most perfectly preserved of the countless bridges built by Roman engineers. It carried the Flaminian Way into the city through an arch as strong and dominating as the Roman character.

    "A branch road led from Bononia to Ravenna, the Venice of Roman days, built upon piles in marshes made by several rivers emptying into the Adriatic. Strabo describes it as 'provided with thoroughfares by means of bridges and ferries.' Augustus stationed there his Adriatic fleet, and several emperors in the fifth century made the city their official residence.

    "The superior fertility of northern Italy, its healthier and more stimulating climate, its mineral resources, varied industries, and cheaply-borne river trade, raised the region to economic supremacy over central Italy in the first century of our era and to political leadership in the third."

    Isn't all this fascinating? And don't you wish you were already packed and ready to go?

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 30, 2004 - 04:29 am
    Map of Pola

    Arch at Pola

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 30, 2004 - 04:29 am
    Map showing Turin

    Map of Italy showing Turin

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 30, 2004 - 04:33 am
    Lake Como

    Amphitheater at Verona

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 30, 2004 - 04:38 am
    Roman Bridge at Rimini

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 30, 2004 - 04:40 am
    When we see the size of that amphitheatre, when we see the magnificence of this and other arches, when we see the size and scope of the roadways through such a vast empire -- it is hard to see it "disappearing."

    Robby

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    April 30, 2004 - 05:11 am
    Several incredible pictures of THE EUROPEAN ALPS in this site. Is it a wonder that they are the envy of the world. I never tire of seeing them over and over again. Just a mention of those alpine lakes brings back wonderful memories. The beauty of it is that they are accessible by car, by train or bus and they are not very far from major cities from where we land in Europe.

    Eloïse

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    April 30, 2004 - 05:26 am
    Mal, wonderful links. Those monuments seem to have a life of their own when you walk by them. They talk to you. You can almost hear them whisper their story from the past. You want to tip toe as you go by them, not to disturb their sleep. Time stands still. Stop or I will pack my bag and go, but I can't.

    Robby, great quote by Durant.

    Eloïse

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 30, 2004 - 05:42 am
    During the war I was in the European Theater of Operation. After the war I attended the Sorbonne (Univ of Paris) for a two month period - November through February. My 29th Division had gone home and I had been placed on Detached Service and for some not understood reason I was on DS into April. That meant that from the end of February for at least another month or more I was "free."

    Things were loose after the war. People could wander around. I was in uniform and could eat at any Army mess. I was thinking of going to Naples to see my relatives whom I had never seen. But I wanted to go to college and my aunt kept telling me that the college enrollments were filling up because so many men had arrived home and were taking advantage of the GI Bill.

    So I skipped going to Italy and went home to enter college. Regrets? Yes, but I probably did what was right.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 30, 2004 - 09:47 am
    I've never been in Italy. The people who raised me couldn't afford to send me to Italy my junior year of college, though I was asked to go because I was studying Italian. When I went with my husband on a business trip to Europe we were scheduled to go to Belgium, Holland, France, Italy Switzerland and England. The corporation he worked for cancelled the Italy part of the trip. So, I've been close, but close is not winning the cigar.

    My daughter was sent on Monday morning to New York City by the Fuqua Business School at Duke for a Web Trends training program. That ended yesterday.

    My son, Christopher, picked her up at 5 yesterday and drove her to his new house in Pennsylvania where she'll spend the weekend with him, his wife, my 4 1/2 year old granddaughter, Leah Paris, and my new little grandson, now 6 weeks old.

    Of course, I'm not able to get out of the house by myself. Dorian's partner, Jim, has stepped just inside the door each evening long enough to ask me if I have enough to eat, and I haven't seen another person all week.

    This being alone like this is getting very old, even though I've put two new issues of my magazines on the web and started writing another chapter of my book.

    Talk to me, please!

    Mal

    Bubble
    April 30, 2004 - 09:53 am
    Hi Mal, are you there? If yes... let's talk! Bubble

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 30, 2004 - 09:57 am
    Hi, dear BUBBLE. Tell me about your trips to Italy, please.

    Mal

    Bubble
    April 30, 2004 - 10:04 am
    Ha ha ha I was looking in Wrex if you had answered and could not find it! I thought I had lost my mind.

    Italy is the most beautiful place I have seen. It is so rich in culture, in past, in color. Even the light is special there, almost like in Greece. The people - in the south- are the jolliest I have seen and the food is... well heavenly!

    I most remember a trip by car from south of France (Grau du Roi) to Italy and all the small villages on the way. all with pretty names. We even stayed a week in one called Roasio. No hot water in the houses, no washing machines, but the people extremely friendly and always ready to give a hand or an advice to the tourists we were.

    There were lots of old ruins which looked Roman, particularly an old crumbling bridge over a torrentuous river. I loved to sit there on a boulder and made some sketches while the others explored further on foot.

    Bubble
    April 30, 2004 - 10:20 am
    More often than not, a local old one would come and sit near me and start telling me of a life that was, of dreams and hopes, all in the local patois that was hard to understand and with lots of hands and arms gestures. They did not need much encouragement on my part ot talk more. It must have been a lonely and busy life there in the mountains and the respite of unknown tourists were welcome to them.

    There is no need there to go to museums, to become aware of the past and of art. It is all around. You can find Roman markers on old roads, also in south of France, you see beautiful art in gardens and fountains, and of course in cemetries, were some tombs are adorned with beautiful statues and sculptures.

    I do not need to mention the delight of eating pasta daily and the variety of pizzas, and other preparations. Desserts again could have me talking until tomorrow morning.

    Now you have me wondering why I did not go and settle there! Bubble

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 30, 2004 - 10:22 am
    Where is Roasio located, BUBBLE? I saw "Under the Tuscan Sun" the other night. The views of Tuscany were beautiful. Have you been to Firenze? I had a friend in Florida who lived and studied art there after World War II. He loved it. All that art!

    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 30, 2004 - 10:32 am
    My daughter, Dorian, studied art (sculpting) in Lacoste in the south of France one year. My son, Christopher, took his wife to visit some of her relatives in Sicily, and they drove up the Amalfi coast. What beautiful pictures they brought back!

    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 30, 2004 - 10:45 am
    Roman road -- Aquileia, Italy

    Roman mosaic -- Aquileia

    Bubble
    April 30, 2004 - 11:08 am
    Roasio is in the Piemonte

    http://www.senato.it/leg/13/elezioni/SEZ/01_12_7707.htm

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 30, 2004 - 11:41 am
    BUBBLE, is the soil red in Roasio?

    Roasio Rustico. Scroll down

    Terre rosse di Roasio

    Bubble
    April 30, 2004 - 12:46 pm
    Wow Mal! that second house looks exactly like the one we stayed with a "Tia Rosalia" who adopted us! Yes, the soil was reddish, but I remember more the rocks and stones which were so difficult to walk on. Also those steeps stairs to access the houses, that was a feat of struggling balance.

    The roads, the simplicity is all in those pictures. I wish I had a scanner to share the few that are in my photo album. The site you found has brought it all back, and the nostalgy of those almost carefree days - or is it that the bad moments are fast forgotten? It was also the only travel I ever made with no medical treatments reasons, and having both my parents with me.

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    April 30, 2004 - 01:10 pm
    Did anyone read the Agony and the Extacy by Irving Stone? A wonderful historical novel of the life of Michaelangelo. The author describes how M chose the marble for his statue of David. He used to go to Carrera to pick up his own marble straight from the mine. That particular stone had been rejected because of a flaw and M made good use of it.

    Naples, Milan, Venice, Piza, Rome, Florence, every day was an enchantment on this trip to Italy a few years ago that I remember like if it was yesterday, but this not being the travel folder I don't know who would be interested.

    Eloïse

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 30, 2004 - 01:14 pm
    Poor BUBBLE. Every time I think of your travelling so far away from your family for medical treatment I have sympathy pains. I remember those long, long weeks and months by myself in the hospital so well. So why am I complaining now? I'm glad you had that time with your parents in Roasio. Is Roasio in Calabria, BUBBLE?

    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 30, 2004 - 01:17 pm
    Yes, I read that book some years ago, ELOISE.

    Mal

    Justin
    April 30, 2004 - 01:27 pm
    While you folks are on a travel binge I will post a side note. Durant mentioned Bononia. It was at Bononia that Antony, Caesar,and L-----, the members of the tripartite principia, stopped to prepare the proscription that included the name of Cicero.

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 30, 2004 - 01:28 pm
    Carrera marble quarry

    Malryn (Mal)
    April 30, 2004 - 01:49 pm
    Do you object, JUSTIN?
    Bologna and more

    JoanK
    April 30, 2004 - 02:52 pm
    I was in Italy 40 years ago. We drove a car from the French Meditteranean along the coast, then inland to Florance, Rome. then down to Naples and the Amalfi drive. We were supposed to take a boat from Naples to Israel, but we got a telegram that my father was in Geneva. So we took a train from Naples to Geneva, spent some days there, then took the Orient Express to Pyreus, the port of Athens and caught the same boat, which had been going around Italy in the meanwhile.

    It was almost too much to absorb, even though we spent about a month. I remember especially Florence, so incredibly beautiful, and seeing David. The Amalfi drive. I was terrified (driving in Italy is not for the feint-hearted) but soooo beautiful!! And going by Orient Express through then Yugoslovia. The people were so friendly. But we did not see the Italian alps.

    The area where I live in Maryland is also called the Piedmonte because the geology is similiar to the Piedmonte in Italy. It is the terrain I grew up with and I love it. It gets its character from the fact that there is the base of a very old mountain chain underneath it. This gives it a distinctive character: red clay soil, lots of rocks, a rolling character, and vegitation that is a brighter green than in other places. In the US, it is a strip that runs from south of New York city south to Georgia. There is an interesting book about it called "the Piedmont" by Arthur Godfrey's son (some of you remember him from radio/early TV.

    Ginny
    April 30, 2004 - 03:01 pm
    I live in the Piedmont (literally foot of the mountain) in South Carolina!

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 30, 2004 - 04:20 pm
    Ginny:-I live in the Northern Piedmont area (everything around here is named Northern Piedmont) and not only that, Ginny, my last name is Italian! Your turn.

    So good to hear from you again, Bubble, and to follow your conversation with Mal about Italy.

    Robby

    JoanK
    April 30, 2004 - 04:31 pm
    Hey, I live in the Piedmont north of you and my maiden name is Italian -- Federico.

    robert b. iadeluca
    April 30, 2004 - 04:33 pm
    Durant continues:-

    "South of Ariminum the eastern coast, rocky, stormy, and harborless, developed few cities of moment north of Brandisium. And yet there were in Umbria, Picenum, Samnium, and Apulia many small towns whose wealth and art can be judged only by studying Pompeii. Asisum gave birth to Propertius as well as Saint Francis, Sarsina to Plautus, Amiternum to Sallust, Sulmon to Ovid, Venusia to Horace.

    "Beneventium was famous not only for a Pyrrhic defeat but for the great arch erected there by Trajan and Hadrian. On its virile reliefs Trajan told the story of his achievements in war and peace.

    "On the southeastern coast Brundisium commanded traffic with Dalmatia, Greece, and the East. Within the 'heel' Tarentum, once a proud city-state, was now a declining winter resort for Roman magnates and aristocrats. In southern Italy large estates had absorbed most of the land and turned it to pasture. The cities lost their peasant patronage, and their business classes waned.

    "The Greek communiteies that had sported their sybaritic wealth in earlier times had been ruined by barbarian infiltration and the Second Punic War, and were now reduced to small towns in which Latin was slowly replacing Greek.

    "Onthe 'toe' Rhegium (Reggio) had a good harbor and fourished on the trade with Sicily and Africa.

    "Up the west coast Velia could hardly remember the days when Parmenides and Zeno had made it, as Elea, ring with metaphysical poetry and impish paradox. Poseidonia, which still amazes visitors with its majestic temples, had been renamed Paestum by its Roman colony, and its Greek stock was melting in a flux of 'barbarian' -- here Italian -- blood from the country side.

    "Only in Campania was Greek civilization alive in Italy."

    Any additional comments about this part of Italy?

    Robby

    Justin
    April 30, 2004 - 05:31 pm
    Mal; No objection. The photos are wonderful. See if you can find a photo of the Grand Canal from the Stazione. That sight greets visitors as they emerge from the train station. There is no way to proceed except by boat to a hotel.

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    May 1, 2004 - 02:44 am
    Justin, I only went to Venice once a long time ago and I came by train. As you say, the grand canal is right in front of the train station.

    GRAND CANAL.

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 1, 2004 - 04:15 am
    Gorgeous photos, Eloise! Be sure to enlarge them, everybody.

    Robby

    Bubble
    May 1, 2004 - 04:17 am
    From what I saw, Roasio is to the North in Piemonte. My geography of Italy is not too good. We were in Alessandria before getting to Roasio because I wanted to see an old classmate there but she was not home. That was in '62, a long time ago.

    Thanks for those pictures Mal, I was in Bologna too and my last stay in Italy was in Milano. The Duomo is really worth the stop there. The shopping galleries like shown on that Bologna site are a delight of sight, sound and smell. There we forgot the persistant rain outside. The cathedral too is awesome.

    I have no recollection of Florence from previous visit. I must have been too young.

    Eloise, that book on Michael Angelo has left a strong impression to me too. Bubble

    Malryn (Mal)
    May 1, 2004 - 04:22 am
    WREX writer, Mary Jane Weaver, just returned from a Mediterranean cruise. The link below takes you to some pictures she took of Venice, which I put on a web page for her.
    Venice,as seen by Mary Jane Weaver

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 1, 2004 - 04:39 am
    "Geographically Campania -- the mountains and coast around Naples -- was part of Samnium. Economically and culturally it was a world by itself, industrially more advanced than Rome, financially powerful, and crowding into a little space an intense life of political turmoil, literary competition, artistic exuberance, epicurean luxury, and exciting public games. The land was fertile and produced the finest olives and grapes in Italy. Hence came the famous Surrentine and Falernian wines.

    "At the southern end of Campania a precipitous peninsula ran out from Salernum to Surrentum. Villas nestled among the vines and orchards on the hills and garlanded the shore. Surrentum was as beautiful as Sorrento is now. The elder Pliny called it 'Nature's own delight' upon which she had poured out all her gifts. Hardly anything seems to have changed there in two thousand years. The people and their customs are probably the same, almost the same their gods. The cliffs still stand the sea's unending siege.

    "Facing this promontory lay the buffered isle of Capreae (Capri). On the southern side of the gulf Vesuvius smoked, while Pompeii and Herculaneum slept under their lava coat.

    "Then came Neapolis, 'Newtown,' the most Greek of Italian cities in Trajan's day. In Naples' laziness we watch an echo of its ancient addiction to love and sport and art. The people were Italian -- the culture, customs, games were Greek. Here were fine temples, palaces, and theaters. Here, every fifth year, were held those contests in music and poetry at which Statius had won a prize.

    "In the western corner of the gulf was the port of Puteoli (Pozzuoli), named from the stench of its sulphur pools. It throve on Rome's trade and on manufactures of iron, pottery, and glass. An amphitheater here shows us, by its well-preserved underground passages, how gladiators and beasts were introduced into the arena.

    "Across the harbor of Puteoli sparkled the villas of Baiae, doubly attractive in that setting between mountains and sea. Here Caesar, Caligula, and Nero played and rheumatic Romans came to bathe in mineral springs. The place profited from its reputation for gambling and immorality. Varro reports that maidens there were common property, and many boys were girls.

    "A few miles north of Baiae, in the crater of a dead volcano, Lake Avernus emitted sulphurous fumes of such potncy that legend said no bird could fly above it and live. Near it was the cave through which Aeneas, in Virgil's epic, had made his facilis descensus Averni into Tartarus.

    "North of the lake was the old city of Cumae, now slowly dying through the superior attractions of her daughter-city, Neapolis, the better harbors of Puteoli and Ostia and the industries of Capua.

    "Capua lay thirty miles inland, in a fertile region that somtimes harvested four crops in a year. Its bronze and iron works were unrivaled in Italy. Rome had so severly punished it for helping Hannibal that for two centuries it failed to recover.

    "Caesar restored it with thousands of new colonists, and in Trajan's time it was prospering again."

    I am confident that there will be many reactions from participants here. There is much to read, absorb, and ponder upon.

    Robby

    Bubble
    May 1, 2004 - 05:18 am
    Capua.... This reminds me of a French idiom: les delices de Capoue - so good and decadent as to cause a loss of objective. It is said that what caused the failure of Hannibal's army was the decadent luxury in Capua which detracted its soldiers from their objective.

    Sorrento... The name inspired so many Italian singers. I remember Il sole de sorrento in Napolitan patois which I could never comprehend.

    In Italy, each name, each place always calls back some connotation in history, in mythology, in art. They all seem so familiar even without having seen them. Or is it only for me? Bubble

    Shasta Sills
    May 1, 2004 - 08:34 am
    I keep telling myself to stop asking stupid questions, but my curiosity gets the best of me. JoanK, what is a single oy?

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 1, 2004 - 11:55 am
    Here are many many photos of the ISLE OF CAPRI. To think I have spent my whole life singing that song and never knew where it was.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 1, 2004 - 12:14 pm
    Here are some photos of NAPLES.

    In the latter part of the 19th Century my great-grandfather, Nicholas Tonti, was the Superintendent of all the schools in Naples. He was wealthy, lived in a spacious villa, and his daughter, Elvira, (my grandmother) had a Duana and lived a life of leisure. Sitting out on the balcony, she fell in love with the policeman who regularly patrolled below.

    They fell in love, they eloped to Marseilles where they were married, and traveled to New York City. For this her father disinherited her and my grandparents lived in poverty the rest of their lives. She raised eight children and my grandfather supported them as a lamplighter of the street gas lights.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 1, 2004 - 12:24 pm
    Here is a photo of the SULPHUROUS LAKE AVERNUS which Virgil described as the entrance to the underworld.

    Robby

    Justin
    May 1, 2004 - 12:55 pm
    It is nice to have this travelogue going on right here in front of me. The photos bring back a great many memories of Italy. Even Stone's Buonaroti come's to life again in these postings. Lago Como, Napoli, Firenzi, Roma, Genova, the Amalfi coast, Venezia, Calabria, these places and the people are all with me again. Thank you folks.

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    May 1, 2004 - 05:11 pm
    When I was in Italy my regret was missing Capri and the AMALFI COAST. That village has to be the most beautiful village on the Med. I don't think I will ever see it now. Here are 75 pictures of that.

    Eloïse

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 1, 2004 - 05:56 pm
    "Pompeii was one of the minor towns of Italy, hardly noticed in Latin literature except for its fish sauces, its cabbage, and its burial. Founded by Oscans perhaps as early as Rome, peopled by Greek immigrants, captured by Sulla and turned into a Roman colony, it was partly destroyed by an earthquake in A.D. 63 and was being rebuilt when Vesuvius destroyed it again.

    "On August 14, A.D. 70, the volcano exploded and hurled dust and rock high into the air amid clouds of smoke and flashes of flame. A heavy rainfall turned the erupted matter into a torrent of mud and stone, which in six hours covered Pompeii and Herculaneum to a depth of eight or ten feet. All that day and the next the earth shook and buildings fell. Audiences were buried in the ruins of theaters, hundreds were choked by dust or fumes, and tidal waves shut off escape by sea.

    "The elder Pliny was at tht time commanding the western fleet at Misenum, near Puteoli. Moved by appeals for help and by curiosity to observe the phenomenon at closer range, he boarded a small vessel, landed on the southern shore of the gulf, and rescued several persons. As the party ran from the advancing hail and smoke, the old scientist was overcome, fell in his trcks, and died.

    "The next morning his wife and nephew joined the desperate crowd that fled down the coast, while from Naples to Sorrento the continuing eruption blackened the day into night. Many refugees, separated in the darkness from their husbands, wives, or children, made the terror worse with their laments and shrieks. Some prayed to divers gods for help. Some cried out that all gods were dead and that the long-predicted end of the world had come.

    "When, on the third day, the sky cleared at last, lava and mud had covered everything of Pompeii but the rooftops, and Herculaneum had completely disappeared.

    "Of approximately 20,000 population in Pompeii, probably some 2000 lost their lives. Several of the dead were preserved by a volcanic embalmment. The rain and pumice stone that fell upon them made a cement that hardened as it dried. The filling of these impromptu molds has made some gruesome plaster casts.

    "A few of the survivors dug into the ruins to recover valuables. Thereafter the site was abandoned and was slowly covered by the detritus of time. In 1709 an Austrian general sank a shaft at Herenlaneum, but the tufa layer was so thick (in some places sixty-five feet) that excavations had to proceed by slow and costly tunneling. The exhuming of Pompeii began in 1749 and has gone on at intervals since.

    "Today most of the ancient town has been uncovered and has revealed so many houses, objects, and inscriptions that in some ways we know ancient Pompeii better than ancient Rome."

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    May 1, 2004 - 06:40 pm
    Pompeii buildings

    Pompeii people

    Pompeii interior

    Malryn (Mal)
    May 1, 2004 - 06:49 pm
    Pompeii person

    Pompeii fresco

    Pompeii faun

    Malryn (Mal)
    May 1, 2004 - 06:59 pm
    Pompeii building

    Pompeii

    Mount Vesuvius, click picture for larger image

    Bubble
    May 2, 2004 - 12:59 am
    The visit of Pompei is unforgettable. The molds made from those dying people are haunting. The luxury of the town, the colors of frescoes and mosaics are incredibly bright and vivid.

    I hope to succeed in bribing my son to scan a few of my photos.

    Thnk you for thos pictures of Capri. Now I understand the saying: to see Capri and die! Bubble

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 2, 2004 - 04:08 am
    When you see the size of those buildings, it's unbelievable that the ash covered them to the rooftops.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 2, 2004 - 04:55 am
    "For two hundred years, from Augustus to Aurelius, the municipalities of Italy prospered. There was a majority of poor in them, of course. Nature and privilege had seen to this. But never before or since, so far as history tells, have the rich done so much for the poor. Practically all the expenses of operating the city -- of financing dramas, spectacles, and games -- of building temples, theaters, stadiums, palaestras, libraries, basilicias, aqueducts, bridges and baths -- and adorning these with arches, porticoes, painting, and statuary fell upon men of means. In the first two centuries of the Empire these philanthropies were carried out with a competitive patriotism that in some cases bankrupted the families that contributed, or the cities that maintained, the benefactions.

    "In return for such favors the city voted the giver an office, a statue, a panegyric, or an inscription. The poor were not overwhelmed with all these gifts. They accused the rich of deriving the means of philantrhropy from exploitation, and they demanded less ornate buildings and cheaper corn, less statuary and more games.

    "When we add to private munificence the donations of the emperors to the towns, we begin to feel the splendor and pride of the Italian cities under the Principate. Streets were paved, drained, policed, and adorned -- free medical service was maintained for the poor -- clean water was piped into private homes for a small fee -- food was offered to the poor at a low price -- public baths were often free through private subsidies, alimenta were paid to straitened families to help them rear their children -- schools and libraries were built -- plays were presented, concerts were given, games were arranged in reckless emulation of Rome.

    "Civilization in the Italian towns was not so mateialistic as in the capital. They rivaled one another in erecting amphitheaters, but also they raised noble temples, sometimes equaling Rome's best. They suppled their citizens with facilities for health, cleanliness, recreation, and a vigorous cultural life. From them, not from Rome, came most of the great Latin authors. They supported as large a population as their modern successors before our century, and gave it an unparalleled security from war.

    "The first two hundred years of our era saw the zenith of the great peninsula."

    Any comments comparing their culture and behavior to ours?

    Robby

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    May 2, 2004 - 05:54 am
    In the link Mal posted on "Mount Vesuvius" you can visit Italian cities from A to Z, hundreds of them by clicking "Next city" and make believe you live there for a while. Beautiful pictures Mal. Thank you.

    Eloïse

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 2, 2004 - 06:03 am
    Durant now asks us to widen our horizons and look to the West. Please note the new GREEN quotes.

    "The blot on Italian prosperity -- aside from a system of slavery common to ancient states -- was its partial dependence upon provincial exploitation. Italy was free of taxation because the provinces had yielded so much in plunder and tribute. To them could be traced some of the wealth that came to flower in the Italian towns.

    "Rome, before Caesar, frankly classed the provinces as conquered territory. All their inhabitants were Roman subjects, only a few were Roman citizens. All their land was the property of the Roman state and was held by the possessors on revocable grants from the imperial government.

    "To lessen the likelihood of revolt Rome cut conquered regions into smaller states, forbade any province to have direct political dealings with another, and favored the business classes against the lower classes everywhere.

    "Divide et impera was the secret of Roman rule.

    "The Principate deals more liberally with the provinces, not from generosity so much as from husbandry. Taxation was made bearable, local religions, languages, and customs were respected, freedom of speech was allowed except for attacks against the sovereign power, and local laws were retained so far as they did not conflict with Roman profit and mastery.

    "A wise flexibility created a useful diversity of rank and privilege among and within the subject states. Certain municipalities, like Athens and Rhodes, were 'free cities.' They paid no tribute, were not subject to the provincial governor, and managed their domestic affairs without Roman interference so long as they maintained social order and peace. Some old kingdoms, like Numidia and Cappadocia, were allowed to keep their kings, but these were 'clients' of Rome -- dependent upon her protection and her policy and required to aid her with men and materials at her call.

    "In the provinces the governor (proconsul or propraetor) combined in himself the power to legislate, to administer, and to judge. His power was limited only by the free cities, by a Roman citizen's right of appeal to the emperor, and by the financial supervision exercised by the provincial quaestor or procurator.

    "Such near-omnipotence invited abuse. Though the lengthening of the governor's term under Principate, his ample salary and allowance, and his financial responsibility to the emperor considerably lessened malfeasance, we may see from the letters of Pliny and some passages in Tacitus that extortion and corruption were still no rarities at the end of the fist century."

    Your comments, please?

    Robby

    Scrawler
    May 2, 2004 - 10:42 am
    When Mt. St. Helen's blew its top in Washington state, I was here in Portland visiting with my family. It was an odd feeling suddenly the beautiful day became dark and terrifying. People drove for days with the lights on night and day. It seemed like everything and everybody was covered with a layer of ash. We were asked to wear masks the kind you find in hospitals. But the one thing that was most terrifying was the "silence". All the birds stopped singing, there were no animals about except for some of the wild animls that came out of the hills and closer in town, but they were just as afraid as we were. There was very little traffic in the area. It was as if we were all whispering for some reason. Most of us were sitting around watching the TV. And if we believed the media they were reporting the story as if it was the end of the world. Living in California I've been in my share of earthquakes which don't bother me at all, but this was something else. I couldn't wait to get back to California. When I was getting on the plane I started to hear church bells ringing. Someone said that it was the signal that everything was okay now. That too was just as odd as the silence had been.

    Malryn (Mal)
    May 2, 2004 - 10:42 am
    This is the link to Italian cities A to Z that Eloise mentioned. Click IMAGES on the left.

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 2, 2004 - 10:51 am
    Scrawler:-That gives us "just an idea" of what it must have been like in Pompeii. They of course were right in the path. It must have been horrible.

    Robby

    Ginny
    May 2, 2004 - 02:03 pm
    Interesting thoughts on Pompeii, I've been reading a fabulous book on it called Pompeii: A Guide to the Ancient City by Salvatore Nappo, which is the finest book on the subject I have ever read. (We're going to read the new bestseller Pompeii in July and have a contest there now, don't miss that one) but I came in to say that early this morning I read the first of two letters, completely reproduced in the text, of Pliny the Younger. Pliny the Younger wrote to the historian Tacitus, at his bequest, two letters concerning the death of his Uncle mentioned by Durant, Pliny the Elder, who actually was attempting to rescue some people, it's very poignant and quite electrifying, and you all might enjoy, if it could be found, reading it.

    Although his first letter (which is, I think, the one you want) recounts the stories of those who did escape, Pliny the Younger also watched it from Cape Misenum to the north, on the other side of the Bay of Naples.

    It's fascinating, the first letter, (VI-16) and I think you would enjoy it if it could be found.

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 2, 2004 - 02:39 pm
    "Every society as it moves forward is fearful of the ones it leaves behind."

    Toni Morrison, Nobel prize winner for literature.

    Justin
    May 2, 2004 - 04:13 pm
    I wish I knew what Toni Morrison is talking about. Even if one assumes that the personification of "society" is acceptable, the message is still not clear. Society, whatever that is, must not only "fear" it also must act, as in "leave behind". What is she talking about?

    JoanK
    May 2, 2004 - 11:09 pm
    My computer crashed Friday night with the SASSER virus, and I just got it back up. If you have windows, download the protection from Microsoft or McAlfee.

    SHASTA ON OY. Oy is a yiddish word that is hard to explain. You have to hear it used. The alternative Yiddish dictionary gives this definition:

    oy, oy vey, oy vey ismier (interjection) ++ anything you want, generally expressing a negative emotion Can express anything from tiredness to sadness to martyrdom to anger to annoyance and so on. Listed as very strong, but it's all contextual (the stronger the emotion, though, the more appropriate one of the longer forms is). "Oy, it's so hot outside." "Oy vey, three tests this week! What will I do?"

    It's usually accompanied by holding your head and grimacing, as in "Oy, how can I possibly explain oy?"

    Justin
    May 3, 2004 - 12:00 am
    She asks for a definition? Oy Vey!

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 3, 2004 - 03:27 am
    As I have constantly said here, we learn so many things in this discussion group!

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 3, 2004 - 03:44 am
    Durant moves us into Africa --

    "All that Sicily lost through Roman domination Africa gained. It gradually replaced Sicily as an unwilling granary for Rome, but in return Roman soldiers, colonists, businessmen, and engineers made it blossom into a hardly credible affluence. Doubtless the new conquerors had found certain regions thriving when they came.

    "Between the mountains that frowned upon the Mediterranean, and the Atlas range that kept out the Sahara, ran a semi-tropical valley sufficiently watered by the Bagradas (Medjerda) River, and two months of rain, to repay the patient husbandry that Mago had taught and Masinissa had enforced. "But Rome improved and expanded what she found. Her engineers built dams acros the rivers that flowed down from the southern hills. They gathered the surplus water in reservoirs in the rainy season, and poured it into irrigation canals in the hot months when the streams ran dry.

    "Rome asked no heavier taxes than native chiefs had levied, but her legion and fortifications gave better protection against nomad raiders from the mountains. Mile by mile new soil was won from the desert or savagery for cultivation and settlement. The valley produced so much olive oil, that when in our seventh century the Arabs came, they were amazed to find that they could ride from Tripoli to Tangier without ever moving from th4e shade of olive trees.

    "Towns and cities multiplied, architecture exalted them, and literature found new voice. The ruins of Roman forums, temples, aqueducts, and theaters on now arid waste reveal the reach and wealth of Roman Africa.

    "Those fields decayed and became dead sand not through a change in climate but through a change in government -- from a state that gave economic security, order, and discipline to one that allowed chaos and negligence to ruin the roads, reservoirs, and canals."

    Any comments from environmentalists here?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 3, 2004 - 03:54 am
    First -- let us get a feeling of the gigantic size of AFRICA and then examine the thin strip the Romans held across the top of what is now Tunisia, Algeria, and Morocco. Note Tripoli and Tangier and then imagine a constant band of olive trees from one to the other.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 3, 2004 - 06:10 am
    Here is some information about the ATLAS MOUNTAINS which I am surprised to learn include the Rock of Gibraltar.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    May 3, 2004 - 11:33 am
    Picture of Roman ruins in Libya

    Scrawler
    May 3, 2004 - 11:50 am
    It is always sad to hear of the decay of land. But governments (even in our own times) have a way of not looking at the enivornment the way some of us do. I just read in one of my Wildlife Federation newsletters that in 30 years some of the animals we know today such as the Polar Bear and the alligator in Florida will be extinct because their land is slowly being taken over by humans. Just recently I read an article where our salmon here in Oregon are depleting each year. When the animals and plants are gone; how far off will we be?

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 3, 2004 - 03:56 pm
    "Carthage was the capital of the province called 'Africa,' now eastern Tunisia. South of it commerce bedecked the eastern coast with cities whose ancient wealth was reviving after twelve centuries when war struck them in our time -- Hadrumetum (Sousse), Leptis Minor, Thapsus, and Tacapae (Gabes).

    "Farther east on the Mediterranean lay a district named Tripolis from its federation of three cities -- Oea (Tripoli), founded by the Phoenicians in 900 B.C. Sabrata, and Leptis Magna (Lebda). In this last city the Emperor Septimius Severus was born (A.D. 146). He rewarded it with a basilica and municipal bath whose ruins astonish the traveler or warrior today.

    "Paved roads busy with camel caravans connected these ports with the towns of the interior -- Sufetula, now a tiny village with the remains of a great Roman temple -- Thysdrus (El Djem), which had an amphitheater seating 60,000 -- and Thugga (Dougga), whose ruined theater attests, by its graceful columns, the wealth and taste of its citizens.

    "North of Carthage was her ancient mother and implacable rival, Utica (Utique). We catch a hint of its Roman opulence when we learn that in 46 B.C. 300 Roman bankers and wholesalers had branch offices there. Its territory reached northward to Hippo Diarrhyrus, now Bizerte -- thence a road led along the coast westward to Hippo Regius (Bone), soon to be Augustine's episcopal see.

    "South and inland lay Cirta (Constantine), capital of the province of Numidia. Westwad lay Thamugadi (Timgad), almost as well preserved as Pompeii, with paved and colonnaded streets, covered drains, an elegant arch, a forum, senate house, basilica, temples, baths, theater, library, and many private homes. Thamugadi was founded about A.D. 117 by the Third Legion, sole guard of the African provinces.

    "About 123 the legion took up more permanent headquarters a few miles to the west, and raised the city of Lambaesis (Lambese). The soldiers married and settled there, and lived in their homes more than in the camp. But even the praetorium was a stately and ornate edifice, whose baths were as fine as any in Africa.

    "Outside the camp they helped to build a capitol, temples, trimphal arches, and an amphitheater where struggle and death might mitigate the monotony of their peaceful lives."

    Any comments about the Roman influence on Africa?

    Robby

    JoanK
    May 3, 2004 - 04:14 pm
    I think this is the first we've heard of Carthage since Rome destroyed it. I gather it was prosperous again.

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 3, 2004 - 05:10 pm
    As we move through the Second Century A.D., you might find the following analyses and comments from the School of Natural and Applied Sciences in the University of Wisconsin in Green Bay of interest. These thoughts can be compared with those of Durant as we move along.



    "Edward Gibbon and Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire

    The most famous and influential work on the fall of Rome was Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, published in 1782. Author Edward Gibbon suggested four reasons for the fall of Rome:



    "Immoderate greatness: growth of a bureaucracy and the military. The Empire simply got too unwieldly and cumbersome.

    "Wealth and luxury: the popular stereotype, although it has some validity.

    "The barbarian invasions: were these a cause or a symptom, or both? The barbarian invasions certainly drove the final nails in the coffin of Rome, but the barbarians could hardly have invaded if Rome maintained its military effectiveness.

    "The spread of Christianity: Gibbon's most controversial claim. The fact that very few people mention this cause is a dead giveaway that most people who compare America with ancient Rome have never read Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.

    "Gibbon had his own cultural biases that affected his work. Most later historians believe he took far too rosy a view of conditions in the second century A.D, when his narrative starts. Gibbon picked that period, the high point of Roman expansion and a period marked by a succession of capable Emperors, as the peak from which Rome fell. Actually, many of the economic and social institutions that contributed to the decline of Rome were already in place by that time. Once he conceived of the concept of a Decline, he pushed it too far. In particular, in his view, the eastern or Byzantine Empire, which lasted almost a thousand years after the collapse in the West, continued to decline throughout that period. If the West declined, one can only imagine how low Gibbon thought the East sank by the time it was conquered by the Turks in 1453.



    "An Alternative View of the Fall of Rome

    "Americans often idealize ancient Rome. We are impressed by its monuments, and many of our buildings imitate them. Rome is the first ancient state that looks like a modern nation-state on the scale of the U.S. Latin was used as the intellectual language of Europe until recent times. It was used in the Catholic Church until the 1960's (and still is for official documents) and is used in law (a clumsy medieval Latin, not Classical Latin.) Many "religious" films about the life of Christ are actually films about Rome with a pious veneer. Ben Hur, for example, spends much of its time on the brutalities of Roman slavery, a Roman sea battle, the splendor and corruption of Rome itself, and climaxes with a Roman chariot race, while giving an occasional nod to concurrent events in the life of Christ.



    "A reality check is due: Rome was a stagnant, corrupt, brutal and petty society. Two suggested antidotes to the romantic view of Rome: Robert Graves' I, Claudius and H.G. Wells' Outline of History. Graves' novel, a fictional account of the life of the Emperor Claudius, nonetheless paints a graphic picture of the pettiness and brutality of the Roman elite, with frequent examples of the casual murder of people because they might someday prove an inconvenience. A historical example typical of Roman petty spitefulness is that after defeating Hannibal, the Romans pursued him for over twenty years. Every treaty they concluded with another state included a clause requiring the surrender of Hannibal to the Romans if he ever sought asylum. Hannibal was finally cornered twenty years later in Asia Minor (modern Turkey) and committed suicide to avoid capture. He was not alone. Most leaders who opposed Rome effectively on the battlefield were eventually captured, taken to Rome, then executed as part of the victory celebrations. The final destruction of Carthage, by then no conceivable threat to Rome, is yet another example of petty vengeance. Wells, an old-time British socialist, needs to be read with some caution, but he ruthlessly strips away the romantic and noble image of Rome. Wells points out that not once did the local populace ever rise up to oppose the barbarian invaders, a clear sign they saw nothing worth defending in Roman society.



    "The pivotal and fatal decision Rome made can be illustrated by comparison with the early U.S., which faced the same choice and made a different decision. In 1787, the United States was governed by a weak union under the Articles of Confederation, soon to be supplanted by the Constitution. The one great act of this weak government was the Northwest Ordinance, which provided for division of new territories into additional States. The concept of admission of new States was incorporated into the Constitution. Hence there is no distinction whatever between original States and later States. A citizen of Wisconsin (admitted 1848) is no different from a citizen of Delaware (first of the original 13 colonies to ratify the Constitution in 1787) or Hawaii (admitted 1959; except Hawaiians are a lot warmer in the winter).



    "Rome in 200 B.C. faced the same choice and made a radically different decision. Rome acquired Spain from Carthage after the Second Punic War, and faced the same question as faced by the early U.S., what to do with the new lands? Instead of admitting the new lands into the then-republic on an equal basis, Rome decided to exploit the new territories as sources of revenue and slaves. Roman citizenship was reserved for Romans. The result was almost non-stop guerrilla war in Spain for over 300 years. Rome traditionally had raised armies for no longer than a year, a workable solution when Rome had only to defend Italy, but troops could scarcely be trained and sent to Spain before they would have to return .To fight its wars in such a distant place, Rome abandoned its traditional citizen army for a permanent standing army. Conscripted soldiers frequently become dispossessed while serving in Spain; their farms fell into debt and were confiscated by the wealthy. Up until this time, Rome had been making erratic but nevertheless real progress toward equality. The Roman electoral system was badly gerrymandered to keep power in the hands of the wealthy; nevertheless, when civil unrest grew serious enough, real reforms and concessions were made. This progress stopped and reversed. Power and wealth re-concentrated in the hands of the upper class. For the next 170 years, Rome experienced increasing civil unrest, ever-bloodier conflicts and civil wars, a military coup by Julius Caesar, then dictatorship under the Emperors.



    "In What If?, a collection of essays on alternative military history, Lewis Lapham pictures a successful Roman conquest of Germany as leading to a more moderate and civilized Europe. But that would have happened only if Rome had enough leaders capable of treating conquered lands in an enlightened manner. And Rome simply did not have enough of them. In Hannibal's day there was a prominent family called the Scipios who embodied all the virtues we like to think of as Roman. One of the Scipios defeated rebels in Spain and temporarily pacified it with benign and just policies, but as soon as he left, Rome went back to business as usual. Roman policy toward Carthage was largely driven by the orator Cato, who ended every speech with "Carthage must be destroyed." Cato was about as petty and mean-spirited a character as history affords, and it was his spirit, not that of the Scipios, that triumphed in Rome. Two centuries later, Publius Varus attempted to invade Germany, in Lapham's words:



    "Choosing to regard Germanic tribes as easily acquired slaves rather than as laboriously recruited allies, he forced upon them a heavy burden of taxation in the belief that they would come to love him as a wise father.



    "Conclusion: Like a baby born with AIDS, the Roman Empire was infected at birth with what eventually killed it."



    Robby

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    May 3, 2004 - 05:47 pm
    "The barbarian invasions: were these a cause or a symptom, or both? The barbarian invasions certainly drove the final nails in the coffin of Rome, but the barbarians could hardly have invaded if Rome maintained its military effectiveness.

    May I say for the fun of it that 20 years ago our famous Quebec film maker Denys Arcand of "Les Invasions Barbares" fame made a movie called "The Decline of the American Empire" and as this film had had such a huge success at the time, he decided to make a sequel, "The Barbarian Invasions" which won him multiple awards here and abroad. Did Arcand inspire himself with Gibbon's work "The decline and fall of the Roman Empire"? Perhaps.

    Eloïse

    Malryn (Mal)
    May 3, 2004 - 08:39 pm
    I have to say I love some of what the people in the School of Natural and Applied Sciences at the University of Wisconsin, Green Bay have said about Rome and Gibbon's version of its fall.

    Also, I have to admit that I never realized Rome had the influence on Africa that it did until I started reading these books.

    (That's called admitting your ignorance, Boss.)

    Mal

    Justin
    May 3, 2004 - 11:32 pm
    It took a long time before the image of Africa as that of Stanley and Livingston and Tarzan diminished in my mind. Mention "Africa" and there is still a great tendency to think of the Watusi and the Mau Mau of Southern Africa and the tribesmen of Somaliland and Ethiopia. Africa was and perhaps even now, is a "dark continent." However, serious reflection brings one to recognize a Mediterranean influence along the north coast and the presence of a great ancient civilization south of the Sinai.

    Mediterranean Africa, acquired a civilizing character through trading with others in the Med that was the equal if not the superior of Greece and Rome. However those areas-Carthage, Tangiers, Tripoli,- could not have advanced as much as they did without military power sufficient to keep the barbarians from the interior at bay.

    The Roman defeat and destruction of Carthage, was only a temporary condition. The power of Carthage lay in it's location as a trading center and it's agricultural advantages. It mattered little to the farmers who protected them- Rome or Carthage. They would grow and sell to shippers in Carthage, who would move their food stuffs to consumers all over the Mediterranean Basin. That practice may continue to this day. While Rome relied on food grain from Sicily it also relied upon grain from Africa.

    Bubble
    May 4, 2004 - 12:43 am
    Mau Mau were in the revolutionary movement of Kenya, that is eastern Africa on the Equator. There exist elaborate ancient stone ruins in a a few places deep inside Dark Africa, but it seems not much research has been done there.

    I wonder about that trade in olives Robby. Surely olive trees grows all around the Mediterranean, they are plenty in Spain, South of France, Turkey, Greece, Lebanon, Egypt. They are part of the local panorama everywhere, same as palm trees.

    Thanks for that map of Africa. I even saw my natal town there in the boot of Zaire: Lubumbashi.

    Utica was mentionned. That was the Ulysses' home town. Bubble P.S. sorry, no pictures to share: bribbing my son for scanning them was not successful. *sigh*

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 4, 2004 - 03:07 am
    Bubble:-You have shared with us at various times that you were born in Africa and certainly lived there for a period of time in what is now called Zaire.

    As we continue to discuss Africa, your comments would be most welcome and helpful and it would be most appropos for you to pass along to us any personal experiences you choose to share.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 4, 2004 - 03:16 am
    "That a single legion could protect all north Africa from the marauding tribes of the interior was made possible by a network of roads, military in purpose but commercial in result, binding Carthage with the Atlantic, and the Sahara with the Mediterranean.

    "The main road went westward through Cirta to Caesarea, capital of Mauretania (Morocco). Here King Juba II taught civilization to the Mauri or Moors from whom the province took its ancient and modern names.

    "Son of the Juba who had died at Thapsus, he had been taken as a child to grace Caesar's triumph in Rome. He was spared, remained as a student, and became one of the most learned scholars of his time. Augustus made him client king of Mauretania and bade him spread among his people the classic culture he had so zealously acquired. He succeeded, being favored with a long reign of forty-eight years. His subjects marveled tht a man could write books and yet rule so well.

    "His son and heir was brought to Rome and starved to death by Caligula. Claudius annexed the kingdom and divided it into two provinces:-Mauretania Caesarienis and Mauretania Tingitana, named from its capital Tingis -- our Tangier."

    Your comments, please?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 4, 2004 - 03:43 am
    This MAP shows the division between Mauretania Caesariensis and Mauretania Tingitana, as well as their proximity to Spain.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    May 4, 2004 - 05:06 am
    Juba II

    Bubble
    May 4, 2004 - 08:28 am
    Mau·re·ta·ni·a, n. an ancient kingdom in NW Africa: it included the territory that is modern Morocco and part of Algeria. Also, Mauritania.

    Mau·ri·ta·ni·a, n. 1. Official name, Islamic Republic of Mauritania. a republic in W Africa, largely in the Sahara Desert: formerly a French colony; a member of the French Community 1958–66; independent 1960. 2,411,317; 418,120 sq. mi. (1,082,931 sq. km). Cap.: Nouakchott. 2. Mauretania.

    From Webster's dict.

    ============================

    http://www.novaroma.org/camenaeum/RomanTimeline.txt

    Roman Timeline

    (ANY WAR IN THIS TIMELINE IN ITALY IS OFTEN WITH A SINGLE CITY, RATHER THAN A TRIBE. THIS IS BECAUSE THE ITALIAN CITIES FOLLOWED THE GREEK EXAMPLE OF CITY-STATES)

    Bubble
    May 4, 2004 - 08:51 am
    Cirta (later, Constantine, Jejel)

    Cirta was first an important Carthaginian settlement (named SARIM BATIM?) , then a town of the Numidian Massyli, and subsequently the capital where the ancient kings, Syphax (king of the Massaesyli), Masinissa, Micipsa, Adherbal, and others, lived and built many fine buildings of mud brick in the later third and second century BC

    http://www.barca.fsnet.co.uk/cirta.htm

    I could find no references to Caesaria in Morocco. There are on an ancient city by that name in Turkey as well as in Israel (of old and modern).

    Ann Alden
    May 4, 2004 - 10:41 am
    Has anyone else heard about the possibility of them finding the Ark?? I heard a news report about this man who is paying for the expedition to the top of Mt Ararat. He put out a call to all archeaologists to contact him if they would be willing to go on the expedition. Annnnd, he is also saying that he wants the climbers to consist of folks from the three main religions which are monotheistic. Most interesting, hmmmmm??? He says the cost to him will be about $900,000!! Whoa!

    Justin
    May 4, 2004 - 12:42 pm
    Geologists can date the various flooding periods in the Iraqi Delta. Durant mentioned something about that back in Oriental Heritage but I can't locate the pages. I recall something on the order of 40,000 years ago. But there must be periodic floods in that area. There are only two artifacts that date back that far. One is the Willenborg Venus and the other is the cave art we see in France. Some of these old folk tales have a grain of truth in them and the flood story could be one such. It's nice that someone is willing to support an archeological effort. Good Luck.

    Shasta Sills
    May 4, 2004 - 01:24 pm
    If it's true that "the Roman Empire was infected at birth with what eventually killed it," all I can say is it sure lasted a long time and had an enormous amount of success for an ailing empire.

    JoanK
    May 4, 2004 - 01:31 pm
    "the Roman Empire was infected at birth with what eventually killed it,"

    I think he was carried away by a good line here. His previous argument doesn't seem to trace the problems back to "birth", but later.

    Malryn (Mal)
    May 4, 2004 - 01:44 pm
    I think it's absolutely true that we've romanticized and idealized the Roman Empire. Too bad the same kind of attention is not directed toward the Greeks, who, in my opinion, were far and away much more creative about everything they did.

    Mal

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 4, 2004 - 04:59 pm
    "In these African cities there were many schools, open to the poor as well as to the rich. We hear of courses in stenography, and Juvenal calls Africa nutricula causidicorum -- the nurse of barristers. It produced in this period one minor and one major author -- Fronto and Apuleius. Only in its Christian heyday would African literature lead the world.

    "Lucius Apuleius was a strange and picturesque character, far more than Montaigne "undulant and diverse.' Born at Madaura of high family (A.D. 124), he studied there, at Carthage, and in Athens, spent a large inheritance recklessly -- wandered from city to city and from faith to faith -- had himself initiated into various religious mysteries -- played with magic -- wrote many works on subjects ranging from theology to tooth powder -- lectured at Rome and elsewhere on philosophy and religion -- returned to Africa -- and married at Tripoi a lady conssiderably richer than himself in both purse and years. <"Her friends and heirs apparent sued to annul the marrige, charging that he had persuaded the widow by magic arts. He defended himselr before the court in an Apologia that has come down to us in refurbished form. He won his case and bride, but the people persisted in believing him a magician, and their pagan posterity sought to belittle Christ by recounting the miracles of Apuleius.

    "He spent the remainder of his days at Madaura and Carthage, practicing law and medicine, letters and rhetoric. Most of his writings were on scientific and philosophical subjects. His native city raised a monument to him labeled Philosophus Platonicus.

    "He would be chagrined, if he could return, to find himself remembered only for his Golden Ass."

    "Miracles of Apuleius?"

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 4, 2004 - 06:18 pm
    Here is a LINK to a very detailed article about African History and Cultural Life much of which existed long before the Roman Empire. Choose the section that you want to read.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 4, 2004 - 06:42 pm
    This PHYSICAL MAP shows the mountains which prevented the Ancient Romans from going too far south into Africa. Allow time for downloading.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 4, 2004 - 07:17 pm
    Click HERE to visit Lepcis Magna one of the more significant Roman cities in North Africa. Take the journey by continuing to click as per instructions.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 5, 2004 - 04:19 am
    "Crossing the straits from Tangier, we pass from one of the newest to one of the oldest provinces of Rome. Standing strategically at the door of the Mediterranean -- blessed and cursed with previous minerals that soaked her soil with the blood of greed -- crossed with mountain ranges that hindered communications assimilation, and unity -- Spain has felt the full fever of life from the days when Old Stone Age artists painted bisons on th cave walls of Altamira down to our own disordered time.

    "For thirty centuries the Spaniards have been a proud and warlike people -- lean and tough, stoically brave -- passionate and obstinate -- sober and melancholy -- frugal and hospitable -- courteous and chivalrous -- easily provoked to hatred, more easily to love.

    "When the Romans came they found a population even then inextricably diverse:-Iberians from Africa(?), Ligurians from Italy, Celts from Gaul, and a layer of Carthagnians at the top. If we may believe their conquerors, the pre-Roman Spaniards were close to barbarism, some living in towns and houses, some in hamlets and huts and caves, sleeping on the floor or the earth, and washing their teeth with urine carefully aged.

    "The men wore black cloaks, the women 'long mantles and gay-colored gowns.' In some parts, Strabo reprovingly adds, 'the women dance promiscuously with men taking hold of their hands.'

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 5, 2004 - 05:20 am
    Here is a brief (but very good) article about ROMAN AFRICA.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 5, 2004 - 05:26 am
    We have often shown maps of the Roman Empire but I particularly like THIS ONE. It is colorful and simple giving the whole picture to the mind almost immediately. I printed it out for myself.

    Robby

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    May 5, 2004 - 06:10 am
    "For thirty centuries the Spaniards have been a proud and warlike people -- lean and tough, stoically brave -- passionate and obstinate -- sober and melancholy -- frugal and hospitable -- courteous and chivalrous -- easily provoked to hatred, more easily to love."

    Spending 6 weeks in Granada and Murcia two years ago I could see these traits on Spaniards. I lived with a family in Granada who spoke only Spanish. The man barely 5 feet tall, lean and tough and dark, his wife even shorter talkative and always busy cooking, cleaning. They still had land to cultivate to bring home fresh produce that we enjoyed twice a day.

    Their hospitality felt like a warm blanket on a cold day. They were frugal yet financially comfortable, also quick to anger and just as quick to love. What was surprising was their leanness in spite of the size of their meals, but meals were free of animal fat but cooked with olive oil. Their leanness was probably due to daily miles of walking to and from work and evening strolls in the parks, and on the streets of Granada. Women still wear dresses even for going to the park in the evening where all members of the family walk together. Loneliness seems rare for the gregarious Spaniards.

    The population as a whole looked more North African than European and you could feel the influence of the Moorish occupation in every aspect of their architecture, on features and I guess on the type of music they prefer.

    Eloïse

    Malryn (Mal)
    May 5, 2004 - 10:43 am
    This page contains some pictures of Roman ruins in Spain, including the aqueduct at Segovia

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 5, 2004 - 07:26 pm
    Here is a CAVE PAINTING at Altamira in Spain.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 5, 2004 - 07:32 pm
    Interesting info about CAVE PAINTINGS in Spain.

    Robby

    Shasta Sills
    May 6, 2004 - 08:11 am
    When I was a young art student and we were studying cave paintings in art history, I was shocked to discover that these primitive works of art were not primitive at all. They were art in the truest sense. These were highly skilled artists who could hold their own with any later artists. With a few beautifully expressive lines, they could recreate a whole animal! Nothing is harder to do than that, to see what is essential and be able to reproduce it. I envied them then, and I envy them still. With all my training, I could never achieve their level of creativity.

    Justin
    May 6, 2004 - 03:50 pm
    The artists of Lascaux, 15,000 years ago, were clever enough to employ, not only the essential lines of imagery but also the shape of the cave wall to reproduce volume. We tend to think of these people as cro-magnon, as early cave dwellers, in a hunter-gatherer economy, and so they were, but they could reproduce life and imagery in line and color. Shasta is so right.The work is advanced and it clearly shows how little we know about these people and how far from reality our own superstitions have driven us.

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 6, 2004 - 04:50 pm
    "From Seneca to Aaurelius Spain was the economic mainstay of the Empire. Having enriched Tyre and then Carthage, Spanish minerals now enriched Rome. Spain became to Italy what Mexico and Peru would be to Spain.

    "Gold, silver, copper, tin, iron, lead were mined with modern thoroughness. At Rio Tinto one may still see Roman shafts sunk to great depths through solid quartz, and Roman slag with an astonishingly low percentage of copper left in it. In these mines slaves and prisoners worked day after day, in many cases never seeing the light of the sun for months.

    "Great metallurgical industries rose near the mines. Meanwhile the soil of Spain, despite mountains and arid wastes, produced esparto grass for cord, rope, baskets, bedding, and sandals, nourished prize sheep and a renowned woolen industry, and gave to the Empire the best olives, oil, and wine that antiquity knew.

    "The Guadalquivir, the Tagus, the Elbro, and lesser streams helped a web of Roman roads to carry the products of Spain to her ports and innumerable towns."

    Any further comments about Spain?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 6, 2004 - 04:56 pm
    Did you know that current atmospheric conditions can be shown to be the result of ANCIENT ROMAN MINES IN SPAIN? What's that about the effect of a butterfly flapping its wings?

    Robby

    JoanK
    May 6, 2004 - 05:07 pm
    Fascinating!!!

    Justin
    May 6, 2004 - 09:09 pm
    I wonder if lead entered in the dementias of Caligula and Nero. Plumbing, roofing, food utensils, food preservative, etc may have contributed.

    Bubble
    May 6, 2004 - 11:24 pm
    How interesting! It seems that the fields of learning and discovering new data are only limited by the scope of our imagination.

    Yes, it is incredible how many "deranged" Romans there were at the end, and apparently mainly in the opulent class. Someone explained it as the poors eating in wooden plates while drinking less wine and thus using less lead.

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 7, 2004 - 03:44 am
    "Rome knew Portugal as the province of Lusitania, and Lisbon as Olisipo. At Norba Caesarina, to which the Arabs gave its present name of Alcantata (The Bridge), Trajan's engineers threw across the Tagus the most perfect of existing Roman bridges. Its majestic arches, 100 feet wide and 180 above the stream, still carry a busy four-lane road.

    "The capital of Lusitania was Emerita (Merida), which boasted many temples, three aqueducts, a circus, a theater, a naumachia, and a bridge 2500 feet long.

    "Further east in the province of Tarraconensis, Segovia still enjoys the pure water brought in by an aqueduct built in Trajan's reign.

    "South of it was Tolerum (Toledo), known in Roman times for its ironworks.

    "On the eastern coast rose the great city of Nova Carthago (Carragena), rich with mining, fisheries, and trade.

    "Out in the Mediterranean lay the Baleares, where Palma and Pollentia w3ere already old and flourishing cities.MO<"Northward on the coast were Valentia, Tarraco (Tarragona), Bareino (Barcelona), and just below the Pyrenees, the old Greek town of Emporiae.

    "A short sail around the eastern end of the mountains, and the traveler found himself in Gaul."

    Compartively new bridges across America are being declared unsafe while in Portugal modern traffic on a four-lane road is traveling across a bridge built 2000 years ago. There must be a message here somewhere.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    May 7, 2004 - 04:07 am
    "One theory about Roman society and its preference for highly flavoured foods is that lead poisoning was prevalent among the aristocracy, due mainly to the use of lead lined pots used for boiling a preservative syrup required by wine merchants. As the symptoms of this complaint include a metallic taste in the mouth and loss of appetite, it would follow that a chronic sufferer would seek to kill this unpleasant taste and stimulate his jaded appetite."

    Source:
    Roman cooking



    Roman pewter

    More Roman pewter

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 7, 2004 - 05:05 am
    Click HERE for photo of Ancient Bridge in Portugal.

    Robby

    JoanK
    May 7, 2004 - 11:27 am
    Amazing bridge. You need to click on "next" to see the Roman portion. How thick it is, even compared to the medieval portion.

    Shasta Sills
    May 7, 2004 - 01:09 pm
    I've always thought it was a strange custom to eat meals in a reclining position. This must have caused a lot of indigestion.

    Justin
    May 7, 2004 - 03:18 pm
    Yes, Shasta. I agree. It was common when I was a boy to eat in a reclining position when on picnics. My Dad liked to golf on Sundays. Mom and we kids would go along and picnic near a water hole while waiting for him to finish. Try eating a sandwich while reclining or up on one elbow. It is very awkward.

    Romans ate enough for several meals in one dining period. They used a vomitorium to empty the stomach to accomodate succeeding rounds of food. When we visited the Egyptians and the Greeks, I don't recall discussing their eating habits. The Romans may have been the only society eating in a reclining position.

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 7, 2004 - 04:46 pm
    Anyone who has ever taken a Psychology course is acquainted with these TWO CLASSIC EXPERIMENTS. They were the first thing that came to my mind when I read of the current tortures of prisoners in Iraq by supposedly civil Americans.

    However, I thought further. I know that a significant number of participants have dropped out of this forum because of the constant violence in the Roman Empire but then have returned because of our intriguing discussions here. And I wonder if these experiments can help us to understand the environment of violence regularly existing in Ancient Rome not only by those in the military but by the entire populace.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    May 7, 2004 - 09:09 pm
    It was not just in Rome that feelings of domination led to dehumanization of people and torture took place. Anyone who began this discussion over two years ago can vouch for that. Anyone who has memories of various wars we were in in the 20th century, and now, know that Americans, like the Romans and their predecessors, have not ever been innocent of such crimes.

    The first thing I thought of when I heard about this latest episode of shame for my country was the history we've discussed here and how little has changed. It is no excuse to say that when you put good apples in a bad environment terrible things can happen. It was no excuse for Rome, and it's no excuse for us now.

    It is the second time in a very brief period that I am once again ashamed to call myself American. I truly never thought I'd ever feel this way. Surely there were some Romans 2000 years and longer ago who felt the same as I do today.

    Mal

    edwyablo
    May 8, 2004 - 12:52 am
    Rome matured and became invincible by sheer force of might and lasted for 700 years+ .They were masters of the worst torture and yet borrowers of Greek culture. A strange amalgam.They were a blend of many contradictions ,but Barbarian invasions were their undoing softened possibly the onset of the Christian political scene.I don't know. Possibly

    edwyablo
    May 8, 2004 - 01:02 am
    It would seem the Etruscans were a society oriented by a religious or other cultus.They were weak on their defences as their cities atop heights were indefensible for a Latin takeover. Maybe this was meant to be.

    edwyablo
    May 8, 2004 - 01:19 am
    It would seem that the tombs have some commonality with the Egypt burial temples and pyramids-The text mentions an Italic origin yet fantastic animals are found in the funerary tombs. The culture was feudal and not united and could be taken over militarily by the Latins piece by piece. The Egypians weded strength with an extreme theocracy and Sun worship until eventual fragmentation began their woes.

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    May 8, 2004 - 04:31 am
    Mal, please don't feel ashamed at being an American, what happened in Irak, as we have learned studying history in S of C, happened before whenever humans are engaged in conflicts of any kind. Americans are not immune to acts of cruelty just as anyone else in another country. A person's character in a war situation can take a totally unnatural turn given a certain circumstance. It is not to be condoned, of course, and should be brought to justice, but a whole nation should not be blamed for an isolated act of cruelty by a few individuals.

    My opinion of Americans has not changed because of that. Although I don't approve of that war, I am aware that your nation has always been one to defend those who needed defending generously and as humanely as possible still being aware that we are all genetically flawed human beings.

    Eloïse

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 8, 2004 - 04:32 am
    Ed:-Welcome to our "Family" here!! We have been having these discussions based on Durant's 11-volume series for two years and four months. We have already covered "Our Oriental Heritage" and "The Life of Greece" and now, as you can see, we are in "Caesar and Christ."

    We refrain from comments on current political figures or from any religious proselytizing but outside of that, share whatever thoughts we have with each other.

    Do you have Durant's set of books? If not, do not worry. If you keep your eyes on the GREEN quotes in the Heading, you will know where we are.

    We are looking forward to hearing more of your thoughts.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 8, 2004 - 04:46 am
    Durant continues, this time about Gaul.

    "In those days, when all ships were of moderate draught, even ocean-going vessels could navigate the Rhone from Marseilles to Lyons. Smaller boats could continue to within thirty miles of the upper Rhine. After a short haul over level land, goods could sail by a hundred cities and a thousand villas into the North Sea. Similar overland leaps led from the Rhone and the Saone to the Loire and the Atlantic, from the Aude to the Garonne and Bordeaux from the Saone to the Seine and the English Channel.

    "Trade followed these waterways and created cities at their meeting points. France, like Egypt, was the gift of her streams.

    "In a sense French civiliztion began with 'Aurignacian man' 30,000 years before Christ. Even then, as the caves of Montignac attest, there were artists capable of rich color and vivid line. From that Old Stone Age of hunting and herding, France passed, about 12,000 B.C., to the settled life and tillage of the Neolithic Age, and after ten long millennia, to the Age of Bronze.

    "About 900 B.C. a new race, 'Alpine' and roundheaded, began to filter in from Germany and spread across France to Britain and Ireland and down into Spain. These 'Celts' brought with them the Halstatt iron culture of Austria, and about 350 B.C., they imported from Switzerland the more developed iron technology of La Tene.

    "When Rome became conscious of France, she named it Celtica. Only in Caesar's time was this changed to Gallia, Gaul."

    Your comments, please?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 8, 2004 - 04:53 am
    This MAP of the Rhine River demonstrates what Durant just explained.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 8, 2004 - 05:35 am
    Here is an informational sheet of the RHONE RIVER with many links for your choosing.

    Robby

    Bubble
    May 8, 2004 - 06:01 am
    The article made me ponder and research because we seem here in a different world , with more temptation to lose our clarity in reading a on-the spot situation.

    Apparently the Dutch, some years ago did those experiments differently, making the people interview (faked) candidadates to a job (in a period of high unemployment) and instructing them to make some comments, questions, etc designed to disturb and unsettle the "candidates" (to test their psychological resistence or something). They got the same results, too. There is only one way: to be vigilant. Which the people in Iraq didn't deem to be necessary.

    There is another interesting point of view on this subject:

    http://salon.com/opinion/conason/2004/05/07/rights/print.html

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 8, 2004 - 06:06 am
    Click HERE to see a map of the Loire River. You are able to move this map horizontally as well as vertically.

    Robby

    Bubble
    May 8, 2004 - 06:13 am
    Ah... les chateaux de la Loire... All along the shores the scenery is a dream.

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 8, 2004 - 06:17 am
    Just a friendly reminder not to let ourselves subtly move from violence within the Roman Empire to violence in today's newspapers. The temptation is great, I know, but we are a historical discussion group, not a political one.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 8, 2004 - 06:22 am
    Click onto these LOIRE VALLEY CASTLES and dream away to your heart's content. While attending the Sorbonne right after the war, I had the opportunity to tour this region.

    Robby

    moxiect
    May 8, 2004 - 07:40 am


    Hi Robby

    I have missed out on so much. I didn't leave because of the violience of Rome. I had no choice. All things have gotten better now. Quick comment regarding history cycle. As long as there is man, there will always be inhumanity treatment because of what I call "fanatics" who have blinders on where culture shocks exist.

    Those castles are super. Very glad to be back.

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 8, 2004 - 07:49 am
    Here is a MAP of the English Channel which the Roman forces had to cross without benefit of a Chunnel. Allow time for downloading.

    On a personal note, see the cities of Brest and Rennes. During WWII, Brest was the site of the German submarine pens. I was with the 29th Infantry Division which, at that time, stayed in one place for almost a month and blockaded Brest until the submarine Commanders surrendered. We then boarded trains to go to Holland and Germany to join the rest of the forces. Our train went through Rennes where I met in the railroad station the woman who later became my wife. Aah, memories, and not that ancient.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 8, 2004 - 07:55 am
    Moxi:-Whenever you are not here, we know it is because some problem has arisen. We know of your constant interest and participation.

    WELCOME BACK!!

    Robby

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    May 8, 2004 - 08:51 am
    Thanks Robby for the links. I could spend hours in Les châteaux de la Loire. I can just imagine how beautiful they are inside too.

    I was surprised at the cost of property in the area. I would have expected it to be much higher.

    Malryn (Mal)
    May 8, 2004 - 09:37 am
    I changed the image of the Loire River Basin from a gif to a jpg, lowered the kilobyte size 58% and put it on a web page. If you click the link below, it will be a much shorter download time.

    Loire River Basin map

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 8, 2004 - 10:54 am
    "The immigrants displaced some native groups and settled down in independent tribes whose names still lurk in the cities they built -- The Ambiani in Amiens -- Bellovaci in Beauvais -- Bituriges in Bourges -- Carnutes in Chartres -- Parisi in Paris -- Pictones in Poitiers -- Remi in Rheims -- Senones in Sens -- Suessiones in Soissons, etc.

    "The Gauls,' said Caesar, 'were tall, muscular and strong.' They combed their rich blond hair back over their heads and down the nape of their necks. Some had beards, many had powerful mustaches curling around their mouths.

    "They had brought from the East, perhaps from the ancient Iranians, the custom of wearing breeches. To these they added tunics dyed in many colors and embroidered with flowers, and striped cloaks fastened at the shoulders. They loved jewelry and wore gold ornaments -- even if nothing else -- in war.

    "They liked abundant meat, beer, and undiluted wine, being 'intemperate by nature' if we may believe Appian. Strabo calls them 'simple and high-spirited, boastful, insufferable when victorious, scared out of their wits when defeated.'

    "Poseidonius was shocked to find that they hung the severed heads of their foes from the necks of their horses. They were easily aroused to argument and combat, and sometimes, to amuse themselves at banquets, they fought duels to the death.

    "Says Caesar:-'They were our equals in valor and warlike zeal.' Ammianus Marcellinus describes them as:-'at all ages fit for military service. The old man marches out on a campaign with courage equal to that of the man in the prime of life. In fact, a whole band of foreigners will be unable to cope with one Gaul if he call in his wife, who is usually far stronger and fiercer than he, above all when she swells her neck, gnashes her teeth, and poising her huge arms, begins to rain down blows and kicks like shots from a catapult."

    So much for French femininity.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 8, 2004 - 11:20 am
    This MAP shows the location of the various tribes of Gaul.

    Robby

    Shasta Sills
    May 8, 2004 - 02:01 pm
    Mal, you sound like a real computer pro with all your figs and jigs and kilobytes! And I sit here so dumb that all I can do is pray the Sasser worm doesn't get my computer. Last year, it was knocked out of operation for a month before I could find somebody to fix it.

    Well, those Gauls must have been quite a lively race, going to war with nothing on but their jewelry. And I don't believe Strabo for a minute when he said they were scared out of their wits when they were defeated. He was probably just jealous of them with all their blond hair and curly mustaches.

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 8, 2004 - 02:57 pm
    "The Gauls believed in a variety of gods, now too dead to mind anonymity. Belief in a pleasant life after death was so keen as to be in Caesar's judgment an important source of Gallic bravery. On the strength of it, says Valerius Maximus, men lent money to be repaid in heaven. Poseidonius claimed to have seen Gauls at a funeral write letters to their friends in the other world and throw them upon the pyre so that the dead man might deliver them.

    "A priestly class, the Druids, controlled all education and vigorously inculcated religious belief. They conducted a colorful ritual, in sacred groves more often than in temples. To appease the gods they offered human sacrifice of men comdemned to death for crime. The custom will appear barbarous to those who have not seen an electrocution.

    "The Druids were the only learned, perhaps the only literate, part of the community. They composed hymns, poems, and historical records. They studied 'the stars and their movements, the size of the universe and the earth, and the order of nature,' and forumulated a practicable calendar. They served as judges and had great influence at the courts of the tribal kings.

    "Pre-Roman, like medieval, Gaul was a political feudalism clothed in theocracy.

    "Under these kings and priests, Celtic Gaul reached its zenith in the fourth century B.C. Population expanded with the productivity of the La Tene techniques, and the result was a series of wars for land.

    "About 400 B.C. the Celts, who already held most of central Europe as well as Gaul, conquered Britain, Spain, and north Italy. In 390 they pushed south to Rome. In 278 they pillaged Delphi and conquered Phrygia. A century later their vigor began to wane, partly through the softening influence of wealth and Greek ways, partly through the political atomism of feudal barons.

    "Just as in medieval France the kings broke the power of the barons and established a unified state, conversely in the century before Caesar, the lords of the manors broke the power of the kings and left Gaul more fragmentry than before. The Celtic front was pushed back everywhere except in Ireland. The Carthaginians subdued the Celts in Spain, the Romans drove them out of Italy, the Cimbri and Teutones overran them in Germany and southern Gaul.

    "In 125 B.C. the Romans, eager to control the road to Spain, conquered southern Gaul and made it a Roman province. In 58 B.C. the Gallic leaders begged Caesar to help them repel a German invasion.

    "Caesar complied and named his own reward."

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 8, 2004 - 03:05 pm
    Here is an EXCELLENT ARTICLE about the Ancient Druids.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 8, 2004 - 03:17 pm
    Durant stated that "population expanded with the productivity of the La Tene techniques." Here is the LA TENE CULTURE.

    Robby

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    May 8, 2004 - 04:44 pm
    Robby, I laughed so much at your post, then I noticed that it was number 911 and I had to get serious again.

    "The immigrants displaced some native groups and settled down in independent tribes whose names still lurk in the cities they built -- The Ambiani in Amiens -- Bellovaci in Beauvais -- Bituriges in Bourges -- Carnutes in Chartres -- Parisi in Paris -- Pictones in Poitiers -- Remi in Rheims -- Senones in Sens -- Suessiones in Soissons, etc.

    "The Gauls,' said Caesar, 'were tall, muscular and strong.' ( Hahaha) They combed their rich blond hair back over their heads and down the nape of their necks. (They are short and have mostly black hair now.) Some had beards, many had powerful mustaches curling around their mouths. (I can just picture that walking down the Champs Élisée)

    "They had brought from the East, perhaps from the ancient Iranians, the custom of wearing breeches. (This is getting funnier and funnier, I am having a ball, hahaha.) To these they added tunics dyed in many colors and embroidered with flowers, and striped cloaks fastened at the shoulders. They loved jewelry and wore gold ornaments -- even if nothing else -- in war. (Surely you jest)

    "They liked abundant meat, beer, and undiluted wine (yes, yes), being 'intemperate by nature' if we may believe Appian. Strabo calls them 'simple and high-spirited, boastful, insufferable when victorious, scared out of their wits when defeated.' (that is more like it).

    "Poseidonius was shocked to find that they hung the severed heads of their foes from the necks of their horses. They were easily aroused to argument (That they dearly love to do, they specialize in argueing) and combat, and sometimes, to amuse themselves at banquets, they fought duels to the death.

    "Says Caesar:-'They were our equals in valor and warlike zeal.' Ammianus Marcellinus describes them as:-'at all ages fit for military service. The old man marches out on a campaign with courage equal to that of the man in the prime of life. In fact, a whole band of foreigners will be unable to cope with one Gaul if he call in his wife, (Dr Durant, you are fibbing) who is usually far stronger and fiercer than he, above all when she swells her neck, gnashes her teeth, and poising her huge arms, begins to rain down blows and kicks like shots from a catapult." Hahahaaaaaaaaaaa. I must keep this quote, I haven’t laughed like that in a long time.

    So much for French femininity. (hahahahaha)

    Shasta, I can just picture Gauls going to war wearing only jewelry? Hahahahahah. Ceasar Wrote this? I think Durant added a few of his own.

    Eloïse

    Justin
    May 8, 2004 - 05:30 pm
    If one goes to battle wearing only jewelry, one does not have to worry about getting stains (blood) out of clothing.

    The Gauls are a strange breed. They started asking for help with the Germans as far back as BCE and continued to look for help through 1916 and 1940. But when we came to them for help they denied us. The Gauls are a strange breed. However, I must admit that their aid was forthcoming in 1778 when de Grasse and la Fayette bailed us out.

    edwyablo
    May 8, 2004 - 06:09 pm
    They are esteemed as mathematical and philosophic standard bearers in the ancient world-So the article you have brought us intimated. All cultures seem to have the same teachings under different guises,and then they are rehashed in a different way at a different time. The Irish erenaissance is indicative of cultural renaissance of this ancient culture.

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 8, 2004 - 06:32 pm
    "Caesar and Augustus reorganized Gaul into four provinces --

    1 - Gallia Narbonensis in the south, known to the Romans as Provincia, and to us as Provence, then largely Hellenized through the Greek settlements on the Mediterranean coast.
    2 - Aquitania in the southwest, chiefly Iberian in population.
    3 - In the center Gallia Lugdunensis, overwhelmingly Celtic.
    4 - In the northeast Belgica, predominatnly German.

    "Rome recognized and abetted these ethnic divisions to forestall united revolt. The tribal cantons were retained as administrative areas. The magistrates were chosen by owners of property, whose allegiance was secured by Rome's support of them against the lower classes. Roman citizenship was granted as a prize to loyal and useful Gauls.

    "A provincial assembly of representatives chosen from every canton met each year in Lyons. At first it limited itself cautiously to the ritual of Augustan worship, but soon it passed on to sending requests to the Roman governors, then recommendations, then demands.

    "The administration of justice was taken out of the hands of the Druids, who were suppressed, and France received Roman law. For almost a century Gaul submitted peacefully to the new yoke. For a moment in A.D. 68, and again in 71, revolt flared under Vindex and Civilis.

    "The people gave scant support to these movements, and the love of liberty yielded to the enjoyment of properity, security, and peace."

    Security won out over liberty.

    I mentioned in an earlier posting that my wife had come from Rennes in Brittany. Brittany is in that section called Gallia Lugdunensis by the Romans and which was overwhelmingly Celtic. At the time I was there (1945) many of the natives in the rural areas spoke the Celtic language.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 8, 2004 - 06:42 pm
    Here is a MAP of Provence in France.

    Robby

    edwyablo
    May 8, 2004 - 06:46 pm
    I enjoyed this reference not merely to Greek copying, a facet of the Roman culture . The Etruscans were theocentric and assimilated Greek culture a point made in the article. They were defeated because of their loose federalism and feudalism, which was perhaps the delineator of "dark" in the Dark Feudal or Middle Ages prior to development of Nation States in Europe.

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 8, 2004 - 06:58 pm
    Here is a MAP of Provence in France.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 8, 2004 - 07:00 pm
    Excerpt from "Discover France."



    BRETON (BREZHONEG) 500,000 speakers for whom it is the daily language in France (1989 ICDBL); 1,200,000 know Breton who do not regularly use it; 32,722 in USA (1970 census). Western Brittany, but also dispersed in Eastern Brittany and Breton emigrant communities throughout the world. Indo-European, Celtic, Insular, Brythonic. Dialects: LEONAIS, TREGORROIS, VANNETAIS, CORNOUAILLAIS. No official status. 18,000 speakers are children under 14 years; 56,250 between 15 and 24; 423,000 between 25 and 64; 168,000 over 65 (1974). 25% can read and write Breton. Some claim to be monolingual in Breton. Strong nationalistic movement demanding recognition, a place in the schools, media, and public life. There are some radio and television programs. Bible 1866-1985. NT 1827-1971. Bible portions 1820-1985.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 8, 2004 - 07:05 pm
    Here is a MAP of Aquitaine in France.

    Robby

    JoanK
    May 8, 2004 - 07:05 pm
    lick on the link to Stonehenge for some great pictures, and excellant article. Thanks, Robby.

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 8, 2004 - 07:05 pm
    Here is a MAP of Aquitaine in France.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 8, 2004 - 07:20 pm
    Here is a MAP of the fourth Roman province of Belgica.

    Robby

    edwyablo
    May 8, 2004 - 07:29 pm
    Another facet of the Etruscans is their great antiquity of over 30000 years? I read this in one of the posted notes. This makes this civilization possibly coterminous with Atlantis(10000 BCE) which perished as we surmise by universal flood. Their Greek connections and funerary tombs remind us of the Egyptians . I am reminded through the readings from the Emerald tablets of Thoth Hermes.

    Justin
    May 8, 2004 - 09:32 pm
    I think it is quite an amazing thing that you were able to pass through Rennes, Robby and on the way, find a wife. It's a little like catching the brass ring from a carousel. You must tell us how that happened.

    The Breton ladies are the ones in the funny little white caps, are they not? I recall that those who landed at Utah, I think, had to turn right in order to secure Britainy before advancing toward the Falaise Gap or am I twisted?

    Bubble
    May 9, 2004 - 02:57 am
    Eloise, laughing...but from experience, I can tell you that the character of Gaul's women described as vituperant and more violent than that of their uncouth husbands seems to have survived in the Belgians, the worse "rouspeteurs" in Europe. The Flemish are mostly blonds with blue eyes, sturdy and fighters, with a reddish complexion. I don't recall if they still favors long moustaches.

    There are still some sects collecting mistletoes in forest I heard, traditions die hard. Wasn't one of the Celtic gods called Taranis?

    what mistletoe can do: Balder In Norse mythology, Balder was the son of Odin and Freya and husband of Nanna, and the best, wisest, and most loved of all the gods. He was killed, at Loki's instigation, by a twig of mistletoe shot by the blind god Hodur. http://www.sneaker.net.au/docs/encyclo/D4.HTM#AEGIR http://www.sneaker.net.au/docs/encyclo/TOCD4.HTM

    TARANIS

    The Lord of Thunder. Taranis, god of the wheel. One of the powerful Father Gods, associated with forces of change. The Romans associated him with their Jupiter, and with the shadowy Dis Pater, the primal god of the Underworld. His connection to the oak tree and to thunder, both of which were important symbols and entities in Druidism, suggests that he may have been a specifically Druidic father god. http://celt.net/Celtic/menu.html

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 9, 2004 - 04:15 am
    Yes, Justin, HERE are the white caps of which you speak which nowadays are worn only in festivals.

    I was a first sergeant on a troop train, entered the station and saw her across the way behind a counter, I spoke passable French and she spoke passable English, we exchanged addresses and corresponded until the end of the war, I attended the Sorbonne and during that time visited her and her family in Rennes, I returned home and wrote asking her to marry me, she responded in a telegram saying "oui," she came to America where we were married -- and VOILA! She passed away a number of years ago.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 9, 2004 - 04:25 am
    "Under the Pax Romana Gaul became one of the richest parts of the Empire. Rome marveled at the wealth of the Gallic nobles who entered the Senate under Claudius, and a century later Florus contrasted the flourishing economy of Gaul with the decline of Italy. Forests were cleared, swamps were drained, agriculture was improved even to the introduction of a mechanical reaper, and the grape and the olive spread into every canton of Gaul.

    "Already in the first century Pliny and Columella praised the wines of Burgundy and Bordeaux. There were large estates tilled by serfs and slaves and owned by the forerunners of medieval feudal lords. But there were also many small proprietors, and wealth was more evenly distributed in ancient Gaul, as in modern France, than in almost any other civilized state.

    "Progress was especially rapid in industry. By A.D. 200 Gallic potters and ironworkers were stealing the markets of Germany and the West from Italy, Gallic weavers were doing the largest textile business in the Empire, and the factories of Lyons were turning out not only commercial glass, but wares of artistic excellence. Industrial techniques were handed down from father to son and formed a precious part of the classical heritage.

    "Over 13,000 miles of road, built or improved by Roman engineers, teemed with transport and trade."

    Robby

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    May 9, 2004 - 04:40 am
    ROBBY, thank you, thank you for those absolutely wonderful maps of France. I have seen most of France now except perhaps the Loire valley. C'est la dacha de Dieu, said Gorbachev once. I love the terrain, the culture, architecture, even 'les maudit français' like we used to call them in Quebec. The map of Provence brought back memories of my favorite town of Menton where I usually stay.

    BUBBLE, no doubt that in Belgium and Northern France people are still fair. I never went to Belgium but I met some Belgiun women who were big and strong and I don't know if they love to argue as much as the French do, because those are hard to beat but the way Durant wrote about the Gauls just tickled my funny bone. No disrespect was meant.

    Eloïse

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 9, 2004 - 06:37 am
    THIS is the Western Roman Empire we are now discussing.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 9, 2004 - 06:41 am
    Here is the History of BURGUNDY WINES.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    May 9, 2004 - 07:48 am
    My daughter studied art (sculpting) in Lacoste, France. It's somewhere near Aix en Provence, but I can't even find it on the map. Poor Dorian had to leave her sculptures there because they were too heavy to ship. Once, years later, she saw a picture of where she was in a magazine, and voila! There was one of her stone sculptures right where she had left it.

    Mal

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 9, 2004 - 09:05 am
    Mal, here is a map of LACOSTE, FRANCE.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    May 9, 2004 - 09:10 am
    Thank you, ROBBY. I found one map, but couldn't see Lacoste. Why does the Luberon Forest sound familiar to me, I wonder?

    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    May 9, 2004 - 10:58 am
    This is just Mother's Day trivia, but if you click the link and scroll down you'll see pictures of Lacoste, France. Just incidentally, Lacoste was the home of the Marquis de Sade. Fashion designer, Pierre Cardin, has bought his castle there.

    Villages of the Vaucluse

    edwyablo
    May 9, 2004 - 02:09 pm
    I find two aspects of Roman culture fascinating which you expanded in above two postings. The ancients generally engaged in vision inducing herbs in religious rituals. Much has been lost in this regard. They used them medicinally and in rituals especially the Eleusinian Mysteries.In the former usage they were probably more advanced than we. Roman culture merely appropriated what was long known in the Hellenistic continuum. The father as priest in the home and the place of the collegium in public was revealing.Their rich legacies and wealth attained was revealing as well.

    Justin
    May 9, 2004 - 02:14 pm
    Mal; I'll bet those photos were lovely but the "x's" do not respond to clicking. The same ocurred when I tried Robby's pics of Breton caps. Something happens in transmission, I think, to neutralize them.

    Robby; The story of your romance in passing is wonderful. It is so improbable and yet so real. The event is in the tail of the normal curve. Things were different during the war, weren't they.

    Malryn (Mal)
    May 9, 2004 - 02:18 pm
    edwyablo, the Romans were imitators much more than they ever were innovators, weren't they? The Greeks were the most creative civilization we've seen since we began this discussion with Our Oriental Heritage over two years ago. If you check the Books and Literature Archives you'll find enough reading material to last you a long, long time. Click the link below to see the first discussion of Durant's Story of Civilization.
    Archived Story of Civilization discussion

    Mal

    Justin
    May 9, 2004 - 02:29 pm
    Yes, Mal. Again and again we have found that the Greeks and Hellenism were at the root of Roman forms. It was in construction that the Romans excelled. They were implementers rather then innovators.

    Malryn (Mal)
    May 9, 2004 - 02:38 pm
    Then why do we make such a fuss over them, JUSTIN? Because they spread their language and genes over such a wide territory? I think the Greeks deserve as much or more air time as the Romans have -- any old day of the week.

    Mal

    JoanK
    May 9, 2004 - 02:50 pm
    MAL: I was surprised about this too. I got an education that emphasized the Greeks, and was surprised to find that most references to the classics or classical meant the Romans.

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 9, 2004 - 03:08 pm
    Why, then, are we giving America such pats on the back? Is our culture becoming world-wide because we are such creators or merely because we are spreading everywhere what we have picked up from sources all over the globe?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 9, 2004 - 03:13 pm
    Are we as innovative and talented as we think we are? How about THIS?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 9, 2004 - 04:07 pm
    Even as the Roman Empire expanded through warfare, simultaneously it showed an expanded economic life in Gaul and elsewhere. Click HERE to see how America at war has affected its world-wide business.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 9, 2004 - 04:19 pm
    "Enriched with this expanded economic life, the towns of ancient Celtica became the cities of Roman Gaul. In Aquitania the capital, Burdigala (Bordeaux), was one of the businest of Atlantic ports. Limonum (Limoges), Avaricum (Bourges), and Augustonemetum (Clermont-Ferrand) were already rich. The last paid Zenodotus 400,000 sesterces for a colossus of Mercury.

    "In Gallia Narbonensis there were so many cities that Pliny described it as 'more like Italy than a province.'

    "Farthest west was Tolosa (Toulouse), famous for its schools. Narbo (Narbonne), capital of the province, was in our first century the greatest city of Gaul, the chief port of exit for Gallic goods to Italy and Spain. Sidonius Apollinaris would say,-'Here are walls, promenades, taverns, arches, porticoes, a forum, a theater, temples, baths, markets, meadows, lakes, a bridge, and the sea.'

    "Farther east, on the great Via Domitia from Spain to Italy, lay Nemausus (Nimes). Its pretty Maison Carree was raised by Augustus and the town to commemorate his grandsons Lucius and Caius Caesar. Its inner colonnade is lamentably sunk into the cella wall, but its free Corinthian columns are as lovely as any in Rome.

    "The amphitheater, which seated 20,000 is still the scene of periodical pageantry. The Roman aqueduct that brought Nimes fresh water became in time the Pont de Gard, or Bridge of the Gard River. Standing today as a gigantic ruin in the rugged countryside beyond the city, its massive lower arches contrast to fine effect with the smaller arches above them to make the structure a revealing witness of Rome's engineering art."

    Robby

    Ginny
    May 9, 2004 - 05:24 pm
    Well now let's not sell the Romans short, you're using their laws, their language structured yours, your football stadiums were their invention, their aqueducts were the first indoor plumbing: incredible inventions, they could drop the pitch 2 inches every 200 feet, control the flow, mix warm and cold spring water, and bring water, millions of gallons per second from a long way away over hundreds of triumphal arches, to public baths, fountains, and private homes, through 450 km of aqueducts.

    Their roads did for the known Western World what the Interstates did for the US, and many are still in use today.

    Their structure and methods of government influenced, and civilized most of the known world. When the barbarians DID come into Rome they put on togas and wanted to be like those they had finally conquered and wanted to be elected to the senate.

    The Romans' refinement of the arch in construction allowed them to become the master builders of the world, in bridges and vaulted buildings, coliseums and amphitheatres which stand today all over the world, including Africa. One of the few things seen by satellites ARE ancient Roman ruins.

    Their military maneuvers were innovative and are still studied today.

    They had enough sense to learn and borrow from the Greeks in art and philosophy, but in architecture and portrait sculpture they also produced works of great individualism and power, themselves. If you have ever seen the Portland vase or their incredibly lifelike sculptured heads as compared to the stylized Greek, you can see the development of a new art.

    In addition the ancient Roman ideals of pietas (sense of duty), gravitas (seriousness of purpose) and dignitas (sense of personal worth) are still regarded as ideals today.

    Our debt to Rome is so great it's almost impossible to articulate it, whole books have been written on tiny segments of it.

    Julius Caesar invented the calendar used in the Western World, (used in Russia up until the 1917 Russian Revolution), invented the one way street, named the months of the year. They had a Senate and a Constitution first, I believe, and I think our Constitution is modeled on some of their principles, but I need to look that up again, and if you take our Constitution and remove the words directly derived from Latin you have nothing left you can read.

    The Roman System of Law has formed the basis for the civil law of many countries, and was used until fairly recently in Louisiana.

    Their methods of heating their homes, the hypocausts, were ingenious.

    The sewer system of Rome, the Cloaca Maxima, is still in use (as a storm drain) and can be visited today.

    They understood the piston and used a crude form of steam engine to operate temple doors and fire engines, Nero had an elevator.

    Some of the greatest writers who have ever written a word and the greatest thinkers were Roman, including Cicero, Livy and Vergil, the list is endless. Letter writing and satire originated as literary forms in Roman times.

    I mean, it really does go on and on and I have forgotten most of it, but we owe a huge debt in our own civilization to the Romans, they were the masters of their world and deservedly so, and our own civilization, and that of a lot of other countries, is based in great part on what they did.

    Malryn (Mal)
    May 9, 2004 - 07:14 pm
    When I was married to a research scientist, there were at my dinner table, and in the living room after we ate, many discussions and arguments between him and other scientists about the merits of research vs the merits of development. Hypothetical and theoretical scientific research doesn't mean much unless it's developed into something tangible and useful. With that in mind I'll say the Romans were superb developers of such things as the principle that has been known since its conception as Archimedes Screw, which led to aqueducts the Greeks built. The Romans developed this further into what I call a fine marriage of science and engineering.



    Greek scientific discoveries, including Archimedes screw

    Design of an Archimedes screw

    Malryn (Mal)
    May 9, 2004 - 07:42 pm
    The History of Plumbing - Roman and English Legacy

    "Testaments to the ancient plumber echo in the ruins of rudimentary drains, grandiose palaces and bath houses, and in vast aqueducts and lesser water systems of empires long buried. Close to 4,000 years ago, about 1700 B.C., the Minoan Palace of Knossos on the isle of Crete featured four separate drainage systems that emptied into the great sewers constructed of stone.

    "Terra cotta pipe was laid beneath the palace floor, hidden from view. Each section was about 2 1/2' long, slightly tapered at one end, and nearly 1" in diameter. It provided water for fountains and faucets of marble, gold and silver that jetted hot and cold running water.

    "Harbored in the palace latrine was the world's first flushing 'water closet' or toilet, with a wooden seat and a small reservoir of water. The device, however, was lost for thousands of years amid the rubble of flood and decay. Not until the 16th Century would Sir John Harington invent a 'washout' closet anew, similar in principle. And it would take still another 200 years before another Englishman, Alexander Cumming, would patent the forerunner of the toilet used today. The luminous names of Doulton, Wedgwood, Shanks, and Twyford would follow.

    "But it's to the plumbing engineers of the Old Roman Empire that the Western world owes its allegiance. The glory of the Roman legions lay not only in the roads they built and the system of law and order they provided. It was their engineering genius and the skill of their craftsmen that enabled them to erect great baths and recreation centers, the water supplied by aqueducts from sources miles away."

    Source:

    History of Plumbing

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 10, 2004 - 03:37 am
    Ginny:-If you think the Romans contributed anything, why don't you say so rather than beating around the bush?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 10, 2004 - 04:37 am
    "Eastward on the Mediterranean, at the mouth of the Rhone, Caesar founded Arelate (Arles), in the hope tht it would replace rebellious Massalia as a shipbuilding center and port.

    "Massalia (Marseilles), alrady old when Caesar was born, remained Greek in language and culture until his death. Through its harbor Hellenic agriculture, arboriculture, viticulture, and culture had entered Gaul. Here, above all, western Europe exchanged its goods for those of the classic world. It was one of the great university centers of the Empire, especially renowned for its school of law.

    "It declined after Caesar, but maintained its ancient status as a free city, independent of the provincial governor.

    "Farther east were Forum Iulii (Frejus), Antipolis (Antibes), and Nicaea (Nice) -- this in the little province of the Maritime Alps.

    "Sailing up the Rhone from Arelate the traveler came to Avenio (Avignon) and Arausio (Orange). Here a powerful arch survives from Augustus' days, and an immense Roman theater still hears ancient plays.

    "The largest of the Gallic provinces was Gallia Lugdunensis, named from Lugdunum (Lyons), its capital. Situated at the confluence of the Rhone and the Saone, and at the crossing of great highways built by Agrippa, the city became the trading center of a rich region and the capital of all Gaul. Iron, glass, and ceramic industries helped to sustain a population of 200,000 in our first century.

    "Northward lay Cabillonum (Chalon-sur-Saone), Caesarodunum (Tours), Augustodunum (Autun), Cenabum (Orleans), and Luteria (Paris.). The Emperor Julian writes:-'I have spent the winter (357-58) in our beloved Lutetia, for so the Gauls term the little town of the Parisii, a small island in the river. Good wine is grown here.'"

    Robby

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    May 10, 2004 - 06:19 am
    Ginny, I love your beating around the bush post. Hahaha Robby.

    Here is the famous comic strip ASTERIX AND OBELIX" site where you can learn about the Gauls fighting the Romans in and around Lutèce.

    Eloïse

    Malryn (Mal)
    May 10, 2004 - 09:14 am
    Roman Theater in Arausio (Orange)

    Roman arch, Arausio (Orange)

    Sculpture of Augustus at the Roman Theater in Aurausio (Orange)

    moxiect
    May 10, 2004 - 09:23 am


    The only thing I can attribute to Rome is the cultivation of copying and enhancing the various cultures it so brutally devasted which in itself preserved the theories regarding, art, engineering and philosophy for us to base the "Western Civilization" on.

    Malryn (Mal)
    May 10, 2004 - 09:40 am
    Old lithograph of Lyons

    Bay of Marseilles by Cézanne

    Scrawler
    May 10, 2004 - 09:41 am
    I'd like to think that the Greeks were more inclined to think about things that concerned us inwardly like our minds and bodies and the beauty that surrounded them. They developed great philosophers and artists. But the Romans were concerned more with power and materialistic things. They also had philosophers, but their greatest accomplishments were their engineering skills and organization skills.

    Shasta Sills
    May 10, 2004 - 12:48 pm
    Ginny, I thought your post about the Romans was great. I knew they did all those things, but I could not have sat down and itemized them as you did. While the Greeks are my favorites, I believe in giving credit where credit is due.

    Justin
    May 10, 2004 - 03:06 pm
    There is much that can be said for the Romans as well as the Greeks. The Romans tended to be implementers of ideas introduced by the Greeks and the Egyptians and in some things, by Mesopotamians as well.

    It is sometimes thought that the Romans were responsible for portrait sculpture but the truth is that Greek craftsmen were responsible for the portrait work of the Ara Pacis and Trajan's Column and other "Roman" examples of the style. Realism began to displace idealism in Greece in the 4th century BCE and peaked in the later Hellenic period. What is Roman in the Ara Pacis and in the Column is narrative sequencing and realistic depiction of events.The procession on the Ara Pacis is thought to have actually taken place. However, even the plan of the altar is derived from the Altar of Pity in the Athenian Agora.

    During the Augustan period, a revolution took place in achitecture.The Romans introduced concrete as a building material. The arch, barrel vault, and dome were not Roman innovations but they were building devices available to the Romans and more readilly constructed with concrete cores than with stone. The arch and barrel vault were used centuries before in Mesopotamia and in Egypt. There are also examples of the arch in the gates of Priene but these are just the beginning ideas for arches, vaults, and domes which come to us from the near east. It was not till the coming of the Romans with their skill in laying concrete cores with stone siding that arches vaults and domes appeared all over the Roman world.

    Roman literature is quite another story. While the vehicles Roman authors worked with were available they created so much in prose and poetry that field is theirs. The Drama is Greek. But prose and poetry as exemplified by Ovid, Horace, Virgil, Seneca, Cicero, Lucan, Juvenal, Martial, Propertius, is very worthy writing. The Greeks may have historians, philosophers, and mathmeticians but the Romans have architects, builders, militarists, and politicians.

    Let's not forget the great contribution made by the Latin language. When it mixed with the languages spoken in the provinces, Spanish, French, Romaine, and Italian were the result.

    Just think, if it were not for the Romans we would not have Greek formations like Maison Carée.

    Justin
    May 10, 2004 - 03:18 pm
    I didn't think Ginny was beating around the bush. I thought she came down right on the money in most of her comments. We do owe a great deal to the Romans and their role in history should not be denied or given short shrift.

    I think much of our thinking about the Romans is colored by their strength and their military aggressiveness.

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 10, 2004 - 04:35 pm
    I guess my off-beat sense of humor is still at times misunderstood. I think Ginny understood it.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    May 10, 2004 - 04:40 pm
    I got it, ROBBY, and will expect to hear more of it face to face at the Virginia Bash!

    Mal

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 10, 2004 - 04:58 pm
    "Belgica, which included parts of France and Switzerland, was almost entirely agricultural. Its industry was for the most part attached to the villas whose numerous remains suggest a baronial life of comfort and luxury.

    "Here Augustus founded the cities now known as Soissons, St. Quentin, Senlis, Beauvais, and Treves. The last. Augusta Trevirorum, rose to prominence as the headquarters of the army defending the Rhine. Under Diocletian it replaced Lyons as the capital of Gaul, and in the fifty century it was the greatest city north of the Alps. It is still rich in classic remains -- the Porta Nigra in its Roman wall, the Baths of St. Barbara, the Tomb of the Secundini family at nearby Igel, and the crude reliefs on the fortress blocks of neighboring Neumagen.

    "In and around these towns life slowly changed its surface and obstinately renewed its elements. The Gauls kept their character, their breeches, and for three centuries their language. Latin triumphed in the sixth century, chiefly through its use by the Roman Church, but it was already being clipped and nosed into French.

    "In Gaul Rome achieved her greatest triumph in the transmission of civilization. Great French historians like Julian and Funck-Brentano have thought that France would have fared better without the Roman conquest, but a still greater historian believed that the Roman conquest was the sole alterntive to a German conqust of Gaul.

    "Says Mommsen-'If Caesar had not won there, the migration of peoples would have occurred 400 years sooner than it did, and would have come at a time when Italian civilization had not become naturalzied either in Gaul, or on the Danube, or in Africa and Spain.

    "'Inasmuch as the great Roman general and statesman with sure glance perceived in the German tribes the rival antagonists of the Romano-Greek world -- inasmuch as with firm hand he established the new system of aggressive defense, down even to its details, and taught men to protect the frontiers of the Empire by rivers and artificial ramparts, he gained for the Greco-Roman culture the interval necessary to civilize the West.'

    "The Rhine was the frontier between classic and primitive civilization. Gaul could not defend that frontier. Rome did, and that fact determined the history of Europe to this day."

    "Nosed into French?"

    Any further comments before we leave Gaul?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 10, 2004 - 05:11 pm
    Here is a PORTRAIT OF FRANCE as it exists today.

    Robby

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    May 10, 2004 - 05:31 pm
    Excellent "Portraits of France" mon ami.

    Eloïse

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 10, 2004 - 08:50 pm
    "About 1200 B.C. a branch of the Celts crossed over from Gaul and settled in England. They found there a mingled population of dark-haired people, possibly Iberian, and light-haired Scandinavians. They conquered these natives, married them, and spread through England and Wales.

    "About 100 B.C. another branch of Celts came from the Continent and dispossessed their kinsmen of southern and eastern Britain. When Caesar came, he found the island peopled by several independent tribes, each with its expansive king. He gave to all the population the name Britanni, from a Gallic tribe, so called, just south of the Channel, in the belief that the same tribe inhabited both shores.

    "Celtic Britain was in customs, language, and religion essentially like Celtic Gaul, but its civilization was less advanced. It passed from bronze to iron some six centuries before Christ, three centuries after Gaul. Pytheas, the Massiliot explorer, sailing the Atlantic to England about 350 B.C., found the Cantii of Kent already prosperous with agriculture and trade. The soil was fertile from abundant rain and had contained rich ores of copper, iron, tin, and lead. By Caesar's time domestic industry was able to supply an active commerce among the tribes and with the Continent, and coins were minted in bronze and gold.

    "His invasions were reconnaissance raids. He brought back the double assurance that the tribes were incapable of united resistance and that the crops were adequate to feed an invading army coming at the proper time. A century later (A.D.41) Claudius crossed the Channel with 40,000 men whose discipline, armament, and skill proved too much for the natives. Britain in her turn became a Roman province.

    "In 61 a British tribal queen, Boudicca or Boadicea, led a furious revolt, alleging that Roman officers had ravished both her daughters, plundered her realm, and sold many of its freemen into slavery. While the Roman governor Paulinus was busy conquering the Isle of Man, Boudicca's army overcame the single legion that opposed it and marched upon Londinium -- already says Tacitus, 'the chief residence of merchants, and a great mart of trade.'

    "Every Roman found there or in Verulamium (St. Albans) was killed. 70,000 Romans and their allies were slain before Paulinus and his legions caught up with the rebel force.

    "Boudicea, standing with her daughters in a chariot, fought heroically in defeat. She drank poison, and 80,000 Britons were put to the sword."

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 10, 2004 - 08:56 pm
    A MAP showing the spread of Celtic tribes across the European continent and into England.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    May 10, 2004 - 09:07 pm
    Boadicea

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 10, 2004 - 09:13 pm
    A MAP showing the spread of Celtic tribes across the European continent and into England.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 10, 2004 - 09:15 pm
    Click HERE for an extremely interesting article about the invasion and later infiltration of the Romans into Britain and their influence.

    Robby

    Justin
    May 10, 2004 - 10:14 pm
    Robby; I took your misunderstood comment as an opportunity to tell Ginny I think she does a creditable job informing us about the Romans. She has amassed a great deal of knowledge about the Romans and I am pleased she is willing to share it with us. You compliment your way and I will do it my way.

    Justin
    May 10, 2004 - 11:10 pm
    Some years ago I was in Kent doing research in Canterbury's medieval library. I came across some references to the city walls. I had always thought the walls had been constructed to defend against the Jutes, Saxons, and later , against the Danes. But it turns out they must have been built to protect the Romans for the ancient documents I found at Canterbury indicate that in the second half of the 4th century the Roman church (now Cathedral) was brought inside the walls. Later in the document it says that the Roman legions withdrew in the early part of the fifth century. In the early half of the 4th century Diocletion had killed some Christian folk who were subsequently seen as matyrs. Cells built over their graves, outside the walls, were used to shelter visitors who prayed at the site. The martyrs bones were moved inside the walls and the Church of Christ, the Canterbury See, was built over the bones.

    The walls surround the town on three sides today and still constitute a formidable barrier to intruders. The rail head, when it came, passed outside the town and visitors must travel by car or taxi the mile or so to the interior of Canterbury town.

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    May 11, 2004 - 03:16 am
    CHRIST CHURCH AND CANTERBURY IMAGES Beautiful monuments.

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 11, 2004 - 03:50 am
    "As Rome's rule achieved stability it became more lenient. The cities were managed by native senates, assemblies, and magistrates, and the countryside was left, as in Gaul, to tribal chieftains amenable to Roman surveillance.

    "It was not so urban a civilization as Italy's, nor so rich as Gaul's, but it was under Roman stimulus and protection tht most British cities now took form. Four of them were Roman 'colonies,' whose freemen enjoyed Roman citizenship. Camulodunum (Colchester), the first Roman capital of Britain, and the seat of the provincial council --Lindum, whose modern name Lincoln declares its ancient privilege -- Eboracum (York), an important military post -- and Glevum, whose name Gloucester merges Glevum with chester, the Anglo-Saxon word for town. Haverfield, the more widely acceptd derivation is from the Latin castrum, fortress, or castra, camp.

    "Most Roman-British towns were designed on the chessboard plan of a Roman camp. Chester, Winchester, Dorchester, Chichester, Leicester, Silchester, and Manchester appear to have had their beginnings in the first two centuries of roman rule.

    "These were small towns, each with some 6000 souls. But they had paved and drained streets, forums, basilicas, temples, and houses with stone foundations and tiled roofs. Viroconium (Wroxeter) had a basilica accommodating 6000 persons, and public baths where hundreds could bathe at one.

    "The hot springs of Aquae Salis ('Salt Waters'), now Bath, made it a fashionable resort in ancient days, as its surviving thermae show.

    "Londinium rose to economic and military importance becasue of its position on the Thames and its radiating roads. It grew to a population of 60,000 and soon replaced Camulodunum as Britain's capital."

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    May 11, 2004 - 07:25 am
    I grew up in Haverhill, Massachusetts, which was named for Haverhill, England, and never knew the name means "town on a hill". Which, of course, is what it is.

    Mal

    Ginny
    May 11, 2004 - 09:57 am
    Thank you all, I appreciate all the fine words and humor and even the Asterix, Eloise, what on earth is that? What a hoot, I LOVE IT! Yes good points, Everybody, and Justin in particular on the various Roman strengths, am off in the morning to see Rome and a side trip to Pompeii again. You all have picked a subject to study which is totally HOT in 2004, with all the new movies coming out etc., you're totally leading the way on the internet!

    But we knew that.

    hahahaah Valete!

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    May 11, 2004 - 10:20 am
    Ginny, Asterix is a comic book originating in France about the Gauls fighting the Romans in Lutèce, around the 6th century AD. It is as popular as Tarzan was, but I guess it was not translated in English. Sorry for being out of line in this discussion with this link. I guess I am a bicultural freak.

    Bring us pictures of your trip will you?

    Eloïse

    Ginny
    May 11, 2004 - 12:30 pm
    Yes I will and I LOVE Asterix and you can choose the language you want to see it in, what a HOOT, it's perfect for our September 15 Caesar!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THANK YOU!~ I had never heard of it and of course it's perfect!!!

    Shasta Sills
    May 11, 2004 - 01:54 pm
    "Most Roman-British towns were designed on the chessboard plan of a Roman camp." What does that mean? What is a chessboard plan?

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 11, 2004 - 04:56 pm
    "How deeply did Roman civilization, in its four centuries of domination, penetrate the life and soul of Britain?

    "Latin became the language of politics, law, literature, and the educated minority, but in the countryside and among many workers in the towns the Celtic tongue survived. Even now, in Wales and the isle of Man, it holds its own.

    "Roman schools in Britain spread literacy and determined the Roman form of the English alphabet. A stream of Latin words poured into English speech. Temples were built to Roman gods, but the common man cherished his Celtic deities and feasts. Even in the cities Rome sank no lasting roots.

    "The people submitted apathetically to a rule that brought them a fructifying peace and such prosperity as the island would not experience again until the Industrial Revolution."

    Any comments as we leave Britain?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 11, 2004 - 05:02 pm
    Here is the ISLE OF MAN.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 11, 2004 - 05:10 pm
    Click HERE for a brief History of Wales.

    Robby

    Jan
    May 11, 2004 - 06:46 pm
    I was intrigued to see Asterix and Obelisk here(I hope I have the spelling right?) They were so well-loved in our household of 4 boys that the books are hanging together by threads. A good sign for a children's book, I think.

    I'm surprised to read that the people of Britain "submitted apathetically" to Roman rule, as I understood that they were a constant thorn in the side of the Romans, with their raids, or did the Durants mean absence of full-scale war?

    Jan

    Fifi le Beau
    May 11, 2004 - 08:44 pm
    Robby asks the question.......

    Are we as innovative and talented as we think we are?

    A young middle eastern writer that I correspond with occasionally sent me the following quote, when I wrote that we have the most innovative, creative, and productive society ever established.

    He wrote back using this quote, "The west won the world, not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion, but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact, non-westerners never do."..........Samuel P. Huntington

    The question perhaps should be, will the east catch up and surpass us in innovation and technology? We are moving much of our production and technology to the far east at this time for cheap labor. The majority of engineers and scientists who study in our top universities come from the east.

    Will it matter whether we got our ideas from Greece or Rome, if we are not superior in arms and technology?

    ......

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 12, 2004 - 03:02 am
    Jan:-Good to hear from you! As we move along in this fascinating discussion, please share your thoughts with us.

    And Fifi, reading the newspapers like all of us here, reminds us of the increasing number of Eastern students in our universities. "East is East and West is West" but will the twain meet?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 12, 2004 - 03:18 am
    "The decisions of Augustus and Tiberius not to attempt the conquest of Germany were among the pivotal events of European history. Had Germany been conquered and Romanized like Gaul, nearly all Europe west of Russia would have had one organization -- one government, one classic culture, perhaps one tongue -- and central Europe might have served as a buffer against those eastern hordes whose pressure upon the Germans caused the Germanic invasions of Italy.

    "We call them Germans, but they themselves have never used this name, and no one knows when it came. Rome used the adjective germanus (from germen, offspring) to mean born of the same parents, and in applying it to the Germans they may have had in mind the kinship organization of the Teutonic tribes.

    "They were in classic days a medley of independent tribes occupying Europe between the Rhine and the Vistula, between the Danube and the North and Baltic Seas. Gradually in the two centuries from Augustus to Aurelius, they passed from migratory hunting and herding to agriculture and village life. They were still so far nomadic that they rapidly exhausted the land they tilled and then moved on to conquer new acres by the sword.

    "If we may belive Tacitus, war was the German's meat and drink:-'To cultivate the earth, and wait the regular produce of the seasons, is not the maxim of a German. You will more readily persuade him to attack the enemy and provoke honorable wounds on the field of battle. To earn by the sweat of your brow what you might gain at the price of your blood is in the opinion of a German a sluggish principle unworthy of a soldier.'

    "The Roman historian, lamenting the deterioration of his own people undr luxury and peace, described with the exaggeration of a moralist the martial qualities of the Germans, and the ardor with which the women spurred them into battle, often fighting by their side.

    "Flight from the enemy meant lifelong disgrace, in many cases suicide. Strabo described the Germans as 'wilder and taller than the Gauls,' and Seneca, as if he had read Tacitus, drew ominous conclusions:-'To those vigorous bodies, to those souls unwitting of pleasure, luxury, and wealth, add but a little more tactical skill and disdcipline -- I say no more, you Romans will only be able to hold your own against them by returning to the virtues of your sires.'"

    If I am understanding this correctly, the warlike Romans came up against the warlike German tribes, assessed the situation, and decided that "discretion is the better part of valor." Did the Romans decide that they had met their match and, in so doing, create the Europe that we know today?

    And, if I may speculate further, is the historical tension between Romanized France and Teutonic Germany a result, even to this day, of the Roman Empire's decision not to attack?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 12, 2004 - 03:44 am
    Here is an ANCIENT MAP showing the divide between the Roman Provinces and "Germany." One can easily see how the Rhine River is the divide. Many of us can remember during WWII how crossing the Rhine was the major feat to be accomplished in the movement eastward.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 12, 2004 - 03:50 am
    For those of Germanic ancestry or interested in Germany's history, HERE is a very readable article.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 12, 2004 - 08:05 am
    This MAP shows plainly that Europe is nothing more than a small peninsula of the gigantic continent of Asia. I am wondering about the possible historical connection between German tribes and Asiatic tribes. Allow time for downloading.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 12, 2004 - 09:16 am
    In just a few postings the "powers that be" will be moving us over to another page because we will have arrived at the 1000th posting (for the fourth time). When you get there, BE SURE to click onto the SUBSCRIBE button so you won't lose us.

    Can you believe that? Four thousand postings and we haven't yet arrived at Durant's narration of the start of Christianity? And that's just this volume alone without counting the previous two volumes of The Story of Civilization.

    You guys are just the greatest!!

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    May 12, 2004 - 12:11 pm
    Many thanks to you, ROBBY, for making this discussion possible.

    Is Walter LaRoche, who wrote the article you linked the Walter LaRoche of LaRoche Chemicals and Roche Pharmaceuticals, now known as Hoffmann-LaRoche? Interesting, isn't it, to think about how many well-known German chemists and physicists there have been and are.

    Mal

    Jan
    May 12, 2004 - 02:41 pm
    I am here every day Robbie, this is the last place I go to before I shut down early in the morning. It gives me something to mull over through all the mundane things in my day. Our SBS and ABC show some fascinating programs about SOC on Architecture, Religion and History. Asterix opened a flood of great memories.

    Jan

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 12, 2004 - 07:25 pm
    "In peace, Tacitus reports, these German warriors were correspondingly indolent. The men spent their time (presumably after hunting or harvesting) in eating heavy meals of meat and drinking rivers of beer, while the women and children did the work of the home. The German bought his wife from her father by a gift of cattle or weapons. He had the power of life and death over her and their children, subject to the approval of the tribal assembly.

    "Nevertheless, women were held in high honor, were often asked to decide tribal disputes, and were as free to divorce their husbands as these were to divorce them. Some chieftains had several wives. The usual German family was monogamous and maintained a lofty level of marital morality.

    "Adultery was 'seldom heard of' and was punished in the woman by cutting off her hair and driving her naked through the streets to be flogged as she fled. The wife was allowed to practice abortion if she wished, but normally she bore many children.

    "A man without children was so rare that wills were not made. It was assumed that the property of the family would go down from father to son, generation after generation."

    After WWII, the French people often punished French women who had consorted with German men by cutting off their hair and sometimes flogging them.

    Robby

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    May 13, 2004 - 04:12 am
    and showing their shaved heads publicly by driving them through town in an open truck to shame them. I remember seeing that in newspapers here after the war. But the men who collaborated were not humiliated publicly like that to my knowledge.

    Eloïse

    Justin
    May 13, 2004 - 11:42 am
    I too, do not remember the French dealing with male colaborateurs in a public manner. Some were probably dealt with but I don't remember any public attack upon them.

    Malryn (Mal)
    May 13, 2004 - 11:49 am
    And what happened to the man who caused Hester to wear the scarlet A and be shunned the rest of her life?

    Mal

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 13, 2004 - 03:28 pm
    French men who collaborated with the Germans probably did not do so in a sexual manner because there were no woman German soldiers. And we all know that any "crime" connected with sex in any fashion is always dealt with more harshly. If I have learned anything from our readings here, that seemed to be true throughout history.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    May 13, 2004 - 03:43 pm
    "When Rome withdrew her legions from Germany, she retained control of the Rhine from source to mouths and divided the majestic valley into two provinces -- Upper and Lower Germany. The latter included Holland and the Rhineland south to Cologne. This once lovely city, known to the Romans as Colonia Agrippinensis, had been made a colony (A.D.50) in honor of Nero's mother, who had been born there. Half a century later it was the most opulent settlement on the Rhine.

    "The province of Upper Germany followed the Rhine southward through Meguntiscum (Mayence), Aquae Aureliae (Baden-Baden), Argentoratum (Strasbourg), and Augusta Rauricorum (Augst) to Vindonissa (Windisch).

    "Nearly all these towns had the usual array of temples, basilicas, theaters, baths, and public statuary, Many of the legionaries sent by Rome to guard the Rhine lived outside their camps, married German girls, and remained as citizens when their term of service was complete.

    "The Rhineland was probably as thickly settled and affluent in Roman days as at any time before the nineteenth century.

    "It was Rome's inability to civilize these provinces south of the Danube that led to her fall. The task was too great for a people suffering from old age. The vitality of the master race was ebbing in sterile comfort while the tribes of the north were advancing in reckless health.

    "When Trajan subsidized the Sarmatians to keep the peace it was the beginning of the end. When Marcus Aurelius brought thousands of Germans into the Empire as settlers, the dikes were down. German soldiers were welcomed into the Roman army and rose to positions of command. German families multiplied in Italy while Italian families died. In this process the movement of Romanization was reversed.

    "The barbarians were barbarizing Rome.

    "Nevertheless, it was a magnificent and precious achievement that the West, if not the North, had been won for the classical heritage. There, at least, the arts of peace had emerged from the travail of war, and men could turn their swords into plowshares without decaying in urban ease and slums.

    "Out of the earthy vigor of Spain and Gaul a new civilization would rise when the barbarian flood would fall. The seed of despot centuries would come to fruit and pardon in the lands where the merciless legions had brought the law of Rome and the enkindling light of Greece."

    The uncouth entered. There goes the neighborhood. Maybe it was "white flight" time.

    Robby

    Justin
    May 13, 2004 - 03:48 pm
    That is an interesting observation,Robby. Why do you suppose men punish women for things connected with sex. Are men embarassed by their vulnerability to women because they elicit sexual feelings in them. Do men see that as a weakness, as a limit to their manliness? Do men look at sex as a weakness and as a result "Bim Bam, Thank you m'am," is a popular form of sexual expression? What is this sexual thing in men and women all about? I don't think we talk about it enough to know what's really going on.

    JoanK
    May 13, 2004 - 03:52 pm
    One theory about the "double standard" in sex is that it is all in order to assure the paternity of the children.

    jane
    May 13, 2004 - 03:58 pm
    As Robby noted earlier, it's time to move to a new discussion area...

    jane "---Story of Civilization ~ by Will & Ariel Durant ~ Nonfiction ~ NEW" 5/12/04 10:51am

    See you there!