Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant ~ Volume III, Part 1 ~ Nonfiction
jane
August 25, 2003 - 05:43 pm


What are our origins? Where are we now? Where are we headed?

Share your thoughts with us!





  
"I want to know what were the steps by which man passed from barbarism to civilization." (Voltaire)





Volume Three ("Caesar and Christ")

"Four elements constitute Civilization -- economic provision, political organization, moral traditions, and the pursuit of knowledge and the arts. "

"I shall proceed as rapidly as time and circumstances will permit, hoping that a few of my contemporaries will care to grow old with me while learning. "

"These volumes may help some of our children to understand and enjoy the infinite riches of their inheritance."

"Civilization begins where chaos and insecurity ends." "








INDUSTRY







"The soil was poor in minerals."

"Industrial production for nonlocal consumption was arrested by difficulties of transport."

"Trade never flourished in Italy as in the eastern Mediterranean."

"The issuance of guaranteed currency promoted the profession and operations of finance."





In this Discussion Group we are not examining Durant. We are examining Civilization but in the process constantly referring to Durant's appraisals.

In this volume Will Durant recounts the flaming pageant of the rise of Rome from a crossroads town to mastery of the world. He tells of its achievements from the Crimea to Gibraltar and from the Euphrates to Hadrian's Wall, of its spread of classic civilization over the Mediterranean and western European world. He relates Rome's struggle to preserve its ordered realm from a surrounding sea of barbarism and its long slow crumbling and final catastrophic collapse into darkness and chaos.

Turning to the eastern Mediterranean, we accompany Christ on his ministry, witness the tragic scenes of the Passion, and sail and walk with Paul on his missionary labors. The Empire attains a new invincibility under the Emperor Aurelian, declines, and finally stiffens into a bureaucratic mold.

This volume, and the series of which it is a part, has been compared with the great work of the French encyclopedists of the eighteenth century. The Story of Civilization represents the most comprehensive attempt in our times to embrace the vast panorama of man's history and culture.

This, then, is about YOU. Join our group daily and listen to what Durant and the rest of us are saying. Better yet, share with us your opinions.



Your Discussion Leader:

Robby Iadeluca






Books main page | B&N Bookstore | Suggest a Book/Discussion


Internet Citation Procedure



robert b. iadeluca
August 26, 2003 - 12:04 pm
A hearty welcome to everyone entering here!!

To those of you who participated in Durant's first volume, "Our Oriental Heritage," and his second volume, "The Life of Greece" -- welcome Home! To those of you who are dipping your toe for the first time in "The Story of Civilization," you will very quickly find yourself pouring out your views.

You see, none of us come on as experts and therefore no question is stupid and no comment is ridiculous. We are all sleuths trying to find the answer to Voltaire's question in the Heading above. And to help us determine our origins, where we are now, and where we are headed, we lean on Dr. Durant, our resident expert.

Hear his warning:

"The study of antiquity is properly accounted worthless except as it may be made living drama, or illuminate our contemporary life."

And so in this discussion group, we attempt to follow his guidance. Even as we cast our eyes backward over 2000 years, we simultaneously glance sideways to see what is happening in our own time. We do not want the time we spend examining antiquity to be "worthless", therefore we will undoubtedly continue doing what we did throughout the previous two volumes and that is allow our new knowledge of Ancient Rome to illuminate our contemporary life. This is, however, not a political forum so we will refrain from mentioning the names of any personages currently in the public eye.

As for 'living drama,' we will have lively disagreements (always respectful of course), we will pause at times to tease and laugh at each other, and of course there will be the ever present links to help us understand the Roman Empire through the medium of pictures as well as words.

Durant continues:

"The rise of Rome, its achievement of two centuries of security and peace, and its collapse is surely the greatest drama ever played by man -- unless it be that other drama which began when Caesar and Christ stood face to face in Pilate's court -- and continued until a handful of hunted Christians had grown by time and patience, and through persecution and terror, to be first the allies, then the masters, and at last the heirs, of the greatest empire in history."

Many of his pages will go by, however, before he tells us of the beginnings of Christianity.

Let us then put on our togas and sandals and and get ready for an absolutely thrilling experience.

A tip-off to those new to this discussion group. Do not quickly scroll down through the Heading. Read the phrases slowly. The Heading is an integral part of this forum. The four quotes in BROWN under the words "Volume Three" are the guidelines for the entire volume -- especially the four "elements" he lists. You might want to refer to them occasionally so as to understand the structure of his thinking.

The quotes in GREEN directly underneath are changed periodically. Those who have the volume will know where we are by those quotes. Those who do not have the book will find that they can easily keep up with everyone else by referring to the same quotes.

Are we all ready? Please make at least one post so that everyone else will know that you are here. And be sure to click onto the "SUBSCRIBE" button. We don't want to lose you!!

Let us move on.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
August 26, 2003 - 12:22 pm
"To my knowledge, no civilization of any sort has existed without some sort of ritual which one can call religious. For this reason, it will be impossible to participate in this forum without discussing "religion" from time to time.



"However, the following guidelines will be enforced by the Discussion Leader to avoid confrontations and digressions about personal religious views.



"1 - You may make one post describing your own beliefs related to religion (whether you have a religious faith or do not) in order to explain your viewpoint toward the topic at hand. Making additional posts about your religious beliefs or faith is not permitted.



2 - Do not speak of your religion or absence of religious beliefs as "the truth."



3 - Do not attempt to change another's conviction about religion.



"Comments about issues are welcomed. Negative comments about other participants are not permitted.



"Those participants who do not believe they are being treated fairly in this respect always have the right to contact Marcie, Director of Education. I will follow her guidance."



Robby

robert b. iadeluca
August 26, 2003 - 12:42 pm
Allow me at the outset to "steal" a link that Mal furnished us during this last month's interim period. This MAP gives us an idea of the extent of the Roman Empire at its peak. This shows us the magnificence of what we are about to examine!! Can't you feel the hair rising on the back of your neck?

But that is in the Future. We will start by visiting that "crossroads town" of which Durant speaks.

The time has come to listen to Durant's words and for you to share your thoughts as we move along.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
August 26, 2003 - 01:02 pm
Etruscan Prelude

800-508 B.C.

robert b. iadeluca
August 26, 2003 - 05:33 pm
"Quiet hamlets in the mountain valleys, spacious pastures on the slopes, lakes upheld in the chalice of the hills, fields green or yellow verging toward blue seas, villages and towns drowsy under the noon sun and then alive with passion, cities in which, amid dust and dirt, everything from cottage to cathedral seems beautiful -- this for two thousand years has been Italy.

"'Throughout the whole earth, and wherever the vault of heaven spreads, there is no country so fair' -- thus even the prosaic elder Pliny spoke of this fatherland. 'Here is eternal spring,' sang Virgil, 'and summer even in months not her own.

"Twice in the year the cattle breed. Twice the trees serve us with fruit. Twice a year the roses bloomed at Paestum, and in the north lay many a fertile plain like Mantua's, 'feeding the white swans with grassy stream.'

"The Apenines shielded the west coast from the northeast winds, and blessed the soil with rivers that hurried to lose themselves in captivating bays. On the north the Alps stood guard. On every other side protecting waters lapped difficult and often precipitous shores.

"It was a land well suited to reward an industrious population, and straegically placed athwart the Mediterranean to rule the classic world."

Your comments, please?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
August 30, 2003 - 05:07 pm
Be sure to click on to the SUBSCRIBE button or you will lose us!! And we don't want that.

A deep debt of gratitude to Jane who every ten months or so glides us over smoothly to the next volume. And "thank you" again to Marjorie who created the original code for the wonderful Heading above. All I do is change the wording.

Robby

GingerWright
August 31, 2003 - 07:08 pm
I am an obsevrer here and so will be just an observer here now. But am sure that I shall learn much from you and the posters. Thanks a bunch to you and the posters

Your S/N sister.

Gignger

Malryn (Mal)
August 31, 2003 - 08:11 pm
I'm here for roll call. I was here the first day The Story of Civilization discussion started with Page 1 of Volume I, Our Oriental Heritage, and I going to do my darndest to be here when the last page of Volume XI is read and discussed, and these books are closed. Below are some links about the Etruscans. Click the thumbnail image on the fresco page to see larger images.
Ancient Etruscans

Etruscan Tombs and Funerary Games

Etruscan Frescoes and Tomb Paintings

tooki
August 31, 2003 - 08:43 pm
Why would the roses bloom twice a year? Was the weather all that different from Greece? Good grief! My first post, and I'm full of questions!

tooki
August 31, 2003 - 08:57 pm
Apparently the warm African wind, The Siroco, brings warmth twice a year thereby causing the roses to rebloom. The Italian Climate

Roses will bloom twice if the weather conditions are right. Here in Portland, City of Roses, the roses are in bloom again because the nights have been very cool and the days very warm.

This brief discussion perhaps explains why the weather in Rome is traditionally considered unhealthly.

robert b. iadeluca
August 31, 2003 - 09:12 pm
Hi Ginger - Mal - Tooki! Good to have you back!

Robby

Justin
August 31, 2003 - 10:57 pm
It is quite easy to start our Roman adventure with a discussion of the Etruscans but the land we know today as Italy was inhabited long before the Etruscans came along. Virgil says Aeneas left the walls of Troy behind and made for the Tuscan hills. We think that would be about 3000 BCE. The earliest Etruscan sites date from about 800BCE.

Etruscan predecessors, archeologists think, came from Asia Minor, an area of the world, with a strong Greek presence in the period of Tuscan migration. However, I see little of Greek culture in the Etruscan sites we have uncovered to date. It is possible the Etruscans are an indigenous population.

Some archeological sites in Italy contain evidence of human habitation dating back 30,000 years. Clearly, the Etruscan predecessors have a long but unknown history. It is for that reason, I think, that Durant draws our attention to unknown civilizations hidden in Italy's soil.

robert b. iadeluca
September 1, 2003 - 03:20 am
We're off and running. Nice to see you again, Justin!

Robby

Bubble
September 1, 2003 - 03:26 am
A quick Hello from Geneva - Switzerland. I will join when I am back from holidays by the end of September because unfortunatly I don't have access to a puter to be able to drop in every day.

I was in Annecy - France on the shore of the lake, yesterday and there was a signal pannel showing "les Romains", go right. We didn't pass that way, so I have no picture of Roman ruins for you.

"C'est magnifique" here, I wish you could all tour too. Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
September 1, 2003 - 03:43 am
Bubble:--I knew you were on a much-deserved vacation and we will be looking forward to hearing from you when you return home. Seems we can't get away from Les Romains and their vast empire.

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
September 1, 2003 - 04:02 am
My wonderful Dan connected my computer temporarily. I dutifully read today's posts, but I have nothing to say, too busy.

BUBBLE - Annecy will remain in my memory as one of the prettiest cities in France. I am so happy that you saw it on your way to Geneva. I cherish those memories.

robert b. iadeluca
September 1, 2003 - 04:11 am
Eloise! We knew that you would be away from us for a week or two but how nice that you could give us a quick visit. We'll be looking forward to your usual active participation.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 1, 2003 - 05:29 am
Durant continues:--

"Earthquakes and eruptions now and then embalmed the labor of centuries in ashes. But here, as usually, death was a gift to life. The lava mingled with organic matter to enrich the earth for a hundred generations. Part of the terrain was too steep for cultivation, and part of it was malarial marsh.

"The rest was so fertile that Polybius marveled at the abundance and cheapness of food in ancient Italy, and suggested that the quantity and quality of its crops might be judged from the vigor and courage of its men. Alfieri thought that the 'man-plant' had flourished better in Italy than anywhere else.

"Even today the timid student is a bit frightened by the intense feelings of these fascinating folk -- their taut muscles, swift love and anger, smoldering or blazing eyes. The pride and fury that made Italy great, and tore her to pieces, in the days of Marius and Caesar and the Renaissance, still run in Italian blood, only awaiting a good cause or argument.

"Nearly all the men are virile and handsome, nearly all the women beautiful, strong, and brave. What land can match the dynasty of genius that the mothers of Italy have poured forth through thirty centuries? No other country has been so long the hub of history -- at first in government, then in religion, then in art.

"For seventeen hundred years, from Cato Censor to Michelangelo, Rome was the center of the Western world."

I am half Italian heritage from my father's side. I wonder. Hm-m-m.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 1, 2003 - 06:34 am
We are no where near the period when the Romans were in England but this article about HADRIAN'S WALL in today's New York Times may be of interest.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
September 1, 2003 - 07:52 am
Etruscan Civilization and a map of Etruria

Daily Life Artifacts from Ancient Italy, including an Etruscan statuette

Etruscan Lion's Head sculpture

georgehd
September 1, 2003 - 07:57 am
All of you are very early risers; I feel that I am already behind in this discussion but should catch up today since we are having almost continuous rain (possibly the formation of a big gulf storm). Glad to see that Mal is providing us with all those interesting sites to visit. Will drop in when I have something more profound to say.

robert b. iadeluca
September 1, 2003 - 08:55 am
Welcome back, George!

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 1, 2003 - 09:00 am
"Aristotle says: 'Those who are the best judges in that country report that when Italus became king of Oenotria, the people changed their name, and called themselves no longer Oenotrians but Italians. Oenotria was the toe of the Italian boot, so teeming with grapes that the word meant 'land of wine.'

"Italus, says Thucydides, was a king of the Sicels, who had occupied Oenotria on the way to conquer and name Sicily.

"Just as the Romans called all Hellenes Graeci, Greeks, from a few Graii who had emigrated from north Attica to Naples, so the Greeks gradually extended the name Italia to all the peninsula south of the Po."

Any comments regarding the origins of these names?

Robby

Traude S
September 1, 2003 - 09:45 am
Robby, I am signing in with pleasure, greeting all the cyber friends, and promising to post as often as I can. Half a lifetime ago I studied at the University of Perugia in Umbria; and we were steeped in Etruscan history (and in Dante, of course).

robert b. iadeluca
September 1, 2003 - 09:51 am
Greetings, Traude! We will be looking forward to hearing your comments.

Robby

Shasta Sills
September 1, 2003 - 09:52 am
I'm here. (Just in case you thought I got lost again.)

robert b. iadeluca
September 1, 2003 - 09:58 am
Shasta! Of course we knew you would be here. Welcome back!

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 1, 2003 - 10:03 am
"Remains of an Old Stone Age culture indicate that for at least 30,000 years before Christ the plains were inhabited by man. Between 10,000 and 6,000 B.C. a neolithic culture appeared. A longheaded race called by ancient tradition Liguri and Siceli fashioned rude pottery with linear ornament, made tools and weapons of polished stone, domesticated animals, hunted and fished, and buried their dead.

"Some lived in caves, others in round huts of wattle and daub. From these cylindrical cottages architecture pursued a continuous development to the round 'House of Romulus' on the Palatine, the Temple of Vesta in the Forum, and the Mausoleum of Hadrian -- the Castel Sant' Angelo of today."

Robby

kiwi lady
September 1, 2003 - 12:04 pm
My book is winging its way to me from New York - I don't know anything about the Etruscans so I will just have to lurk until my book lands. Hopefully on the weekend!

Carolyn

Hats
September 1, 2003 - 03:20 pm
I am lurking with Carolyn.

Shasta Sills
September 1, 2003 - 03:26 pm
What on earth is a long-headed race? How do we know they had long heads?

tooki
September 1, 2003 - 03:56 pm
I found the Durants' account of pre-Etruscan inhabitants of Italy too condensed for my understanding. Here is a site that goes into more detail about early inhabitants:

The First Italians

It's interesting that among anthropologists and historians the fact that a culture buried it's dead indicates an "advanced" culture. The "longheaded race" mentioned by Durant was frequently mentioned by early anthropologists as the "Mediterranean race." Current anthropologists, as far as I can determine, do not use the "R" word AT ALL. Sometimes they talk about Mediterranean, Danube, Sea, and Lake "peoples."

tooki
September 1, 2003 - 04:04 pm
As I recall, scholars measured skulls back when the study of "race" was considered a legitimate area of study. Scholars determined that folks that lived around the Mediterranean had long skulls. A scholar named Coons, or Koons, postulated around 200 "races." He was ridiculed and discarded. His book is still available. I'll go check.

tooki
September 1, 2003 - 04:10 pm
Here you are, Shasta. The fascinating answer to all your questions. Apparently Mr. Coons is not as forgotton as I thought.

Mediterranean Race

I'll subside now.

kiwi lady
September 1, 2003 - 05:00 pm
My maternal grandmother fitted the racial profile as described in the link. She had black hair - a fine boned face - short forehead and dark brown eyes - olive skin and as she got older her nose indeed dominated her face. She was born in Scotland but had Spanish blood. She was often mistaken for being some sort of mixed blood person. My grandfathers family forbade him to marry her as they said she was black. Luckily he did, he went ahead and followed his heart or I would not be posting in this forum!

robert b. iadeluca
September 1, 2003 - 05:21 pm
Welcome back Carolyn and HATS!!

Great links, Tooki. Especially interesting (at least to me) were those photos of men from different heritages. "People are people" -- and, then again, maybe they are not!

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 1, 2003 - 05:35 pm
"About 2000 B.C. tribes from central Europe brought with them the custom of building their villages upon piles sunk in water, for safety from animal or human attack. They settled on Garda, Como, Maggiore, and the other enchanted lakes that still lure aliens to Italy. Later they moved south and, finding fewer lakes, built their homes upon land, but still upon a foundation of piles.

"Their habit of surrounding these settlements with rampart and moat passed down to form features of Roman camps and medieval chateaux. They pastured flocks and herds, tilled the soil, wove clothing, fired pottery. Out of bronze, which had appeared in Italy toward the end of the Neolithic Age (about 2500 B.C.), they forged a hundred varieties of tools and weapons, including combs, hairpins, razors, tweezers, and other timeless implements. They allowed their rubbish to accumulate so lavishly around the villages that their culture has received the name of terramare -- earth marl -- from the fertilizing potency of these remains. So far as we know, they were the direct ancestors of the basic population of Italy in historical times.

"In the valley of the Po the descendants of these terramaricoli, about 1000 B.C. learned from Germany the use of iron, made from it improved implements, and, so armed, spread their 'Villanovan' culture from its center at Villanova, near Bologna, far down into Italy. From them, we may belive, came the blood, languages, and essential arts of the Umbrians, Sabines, and Latins.

"Then, about 800 B.C. a new flood of immigrants arrived, subjugated the Villanovan population, and established between the Tiber and the Alps one of the strangest civilizations in the records of mankind."

If I am understanding this correctly, the later "Italians" were more influenced genetically and culturally by the more Northern tribes than I had realized.

Robby

moxiect
September 1, 2003 - 07:49 pm
Hi Robby!

Sure glad I came in tonight! Just caught up to all the previous posts! I have learned a great deal about the Etruscans that were somewhat of a mystery to me. I vaguely remember my grandparents, both of who came from the same town in Sicily, referencing them.

robert b. iadeluca
September 2, 2003 - 01:41 am
Good to see you back, Moxie!!

These words by Durant make me think of my family too. I think of my paternal grandparents who both came from the Naples area. While Naples obviously grew from the period of time of which Durant speaks, nevertheless I think of them coming from an area which had "lakes upheld in the chalice of the hills, "green fields verging toward blue seas, and "cities in which, amid dust and dirt, everything from cottage to cathedral seems beautiful."

My grandmother was a marchesa from a wealthy family, had a governess, and, sitting in her balcony above, fell in love (from afar) with a policeman (a commoner) who passed constantly below. She eloped, they both went to Marseille where they were married, and ended up living a life of poverty in Little Italy in New York City. Her father disinherited her due to this action. Now I wish that over the years I had asked them more about their life in Italy. I knew her only as a struggling immigrant in America.

Some of us here, as we read Durant's words, find ourselves wondering about our individual origns as well as the origins of Mankind in general.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 2, 2003 - 02:33 am
A reminder to regularly check the GREEN quotes in the Heading which are changed periodically.

"The Etruscans ruled Rome for a hundred years or more, and left upon Roman ways so varied an influence that Rome can hardly be understood without them. Yet Roman literature is as mute concerning them as a matron anxious to forget, publicly, the surrenders of her youth.

"Italian civilization, as literate provision, begins with them. 8000 inscriptions, as well as many works of art, mingle with their remains. There are indications of a lost literature in poetry, drama, and history. But only a few unrevealing words of the language have been deciphered, and scholarship stands in deeper darkness today before the Etruscan mystery than that which shrouded the Egypt of the Pharaohs before Champollion.

"Consequently men still debate who the Etruscans were, and when and whence they came. Perhaps the old trdition has been too readily set aside. Pedants love to disprove the accepted, which mischievously survives.

"Most Greek and Roman historians took it for granted that the Etruscans had come from Asia Minor. Many elements in their religion, dress, and art suggest an Asiatic origin. Many, again, seem natively Italian. Most likely the civilization of Etruria was an outgrowth of the Villanovan culture, commercially influenced by Greece and the Near East, while the Etruscans themselves, as they believed, were invaders from Asia Minor, probably Lydia.

"In any case, their superior killing power made them the ruling caste in Tuscany."

Your comments, please?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
September 2, 2003 - 06:24 am
History Magna Graecia, Sicily, Carthage

Ashmolean Museum index of information about Villanovans and Early Etruscans

Early Etruscans: the Orientalising Period - from the Ashmolean

tooki
September 2, 2003 - 11:11 am
Does anyone have a clew about how or why there were lions in early Italy, as portrayed by the Etruscans? In an attempt to find an answer, I found this charming auction site, with descriptions of the Etruscan art on sale. The prices for these small pieces, 4 to 6 inches long, gives one a sense of the value of the objects that are in museums. Etruscan Art At Auction

Do scroll down and look at the Mesapotanian green dog. He's too cute!

robert b. iadeluca
September 2, 2003 - 02:03 pm
Tooki:--I liked the lion. He had rather a "proud" stance.

As for "why" lions -- my guess is that, based on Mal's link to an Orientalizing period, there was an African influence, perhaps Egyptian.

Robby

Shasta Sills
September 2, 2003 - 02:25 pm
I'm still hung up on the long-headed types. I know nothing about anthropology, but I have studied faces all my life; and I can't see that the faces in those photos are any longer than anybody else's. The writer said the Mediterranean head is long-oval in shape with parallel sides. Now where is there a race whose face is not parallel on both sides? Individual faces are not always perfectly symmetrical, but I can't imagine a whole race with lop-sided faces.

Shasta Sills
September 2, 2003 - 02:47 pm
The dog is not bad, Tooki, but I would rather have the chubby little boy on the dolphin. If I had $80,000 to spare. I've always wondered why they thought of Eros as a child.

robert b. iadeluca
September 2, 2003 - 03:08 pm
How about THIS, Shasta?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 2, 2003 - 03:20 pm
Or THIS?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 2, 2003 - 03:34 pm
Durant continues:--

"As in the case of Rome, the government of the Etruscan cities began as a monarchy, became an oligarchy of 'first families,' and gradually gave over to an assembly of propertied citizens the right of choosing the annual magistrates. So far as we can make out from the tomb paintings and reliefs, it was a thoroughly feudal society, with an aristocracy owning the soil and enjoying in luxury the surplus product of Villanovan serfs and war-won slaves.

"Under this discipline Tuscany was reclaimed from forest and swamp, and a system of rural irrigation and urban sewage was developed beyond anything discoverable in contemporary Greece. Etruscan engineers built drainage tunnels to take the overflow of lakes, and cut drained roadways through rock and hill.

"As early as 700 B.C. Etruscan industry mined the copper of the western coast and the iron of Elba, smelted the iron ore at Populonia, and solid pig iron throughout Italy. Etruscan merchants traded up and down the Tyrrhene Sea, brought amber, tin, lead, and iron from northern Europe down the Rhine and the Rhone and over the Alps, and sold Etruscan products in every major port of the Mediterranean.

"About 500 B.C. Etruscan town issued their own coins."

Along the Rhine into Northern Europe?!!

Robby

decaf
September 2, 2003 - 03:52 pm
Robby - I hope to get this book and follow along. Thanks to your link, I at least now know why my face is shrinking. Wish that would be true of my nose. I enjoyed the story of your grandparents.

My children's ancestry is Italian on their father's side. Their grandparents were from Piedmont. We have friends and family from all parts of Italy. The variations in appearance, food, and customs is interesting.

Judy S (CA)

robert b. iadeluca
September 2, 2003 - 03:53 pm
Here is a MAP of Tuscany, showing its location on the boot of Italy (Right near France as we know it now)

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 2, 2003 - 03:58 pm
Nice to have you with us, Judy.

Here is a MAP of Piedmont. The area colored green shows its location in Italy.

Robby

tooki
September 2, 2003 - 04:17 pm
I'm not happy with the rampant speculating in post 47, "The Evolution of the Human Skull." I would rather do my own. Our mouths and noses don't stick out because, unlike other mammals, we don't grasp the world primarily with our noses and mouths. Once our brains began growing and we could depend on our thinking processes to escape danger, we didn't need to smell danger or defend ourselves by biting our enemies. Thus, they shrunk, or shrank, or whatever. My off the wall ideas are as good any day as some crazy evolutionists! So there! Back to the Etruscans.

robert b. iadeluca
September 2, 2003 - 04:24 pm
As we have long learned in this discussion group, the search for our origins leads us into the darndest topics!!

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 2, 2003 - 04:30 pm
ANOTHER MAP shows us the location of Tuscany on Italy's boot.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 2, 2003 - 05:11 pm
"The people themselves are pictured on their tombs as short and stocky, with large heads, features almost Anatolian, complexion ruddy, especially women. Rouge is as old as civilization. The ladies were famous for their beauty, and the men sometimes had faces of refinement and nobility.

"Civilization had already advanced to a precarious height, for specimens of dental bridgework have been found in the graves. Dentistry, like medicine and surgery, had been imported from Egypt and Greece. Both sexes wore the hair long, and the men fondled beards. Garments followed the Ionian style -- an inner shirt like the chiton, and an outer robe that became the Roman toga.

"Men as well as women loved ornament, and their tombs abounded in jewelry."

Wasn't it just a few years ago when there was an uproar about men wearing ornaments and long hair?

Robby

georgehd
September 2, 2003 - 07:24 pm
This link in the NYTimes provides some info on Hadrian's wall in Great Britain the most northern of the Roman conquests. http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/31/travel/31hadrian.html

winsum
September 2, 2003 - 07:58 pm
and the thing that struck me from the beginning of Durants writing and the initial quote is its beauty, full of images, poetic. does make my hair stand on end. Is the climate that which we refer to as "the mediteranian climate". that's the reason I'm writing to you from southern california which is meant to be related in that way. . . . an exotic environment for sure and so are we here in the present. .. . claire aka winsum. This is very lovely writing in itself, not just for the information it offers but for the emotional experience also. claire aka winsum

winsum
September 2, 2003 - 08:55 pm
anthropology a million years ago at ucla.....spoke of long headed as dolicocephalic heads meaning long from front to back, bracheocephalic meaning short from front to back and mesosephalic meaning somewhere in between. I'm surprised none of these terms seem to have been used in the literature. btw with my german jewish background I'm more or less dolichocephalic and I"m sure I didn't spell it right. . . . does that go with long heads (G)

winsum
September 2, 2003 - 08:58 pm
when my dad was in europe during wwI he spent a lot of time traveling if not fighting and loved the shoreline in southern italy. It's the reason our family emigrated from chicago to southern california in 1930 and the reason Im still here. it does look a little like monaco around the pacific palisades area in Los Angeles. I can relate. to the image but my knowledge of geography is lacking. am I on the right continent?

robert b. iadeluca
September 3, 2003 - 03:43 am
Good to see you again, Claire! I agree about the beauty of Durant's language. He is more than a historian.

George, I gave that NY Times link back in Post 19.

Well, folks, here it is Wednesday morning (ET), only 48 hours after we entered Caesar and Christ and already we have with us Ginger, Mal, Tooki, Justin, Bubble, Eloise, George, Traude, Shasta, Carolyn (Kiwi Lady), Hats, Moxie, Judy (Decaf), and Claire (Winsum).

The family is gathering!!

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 3, 2003 - 04:48 am
"The men waged war lustily, and practiced a variety of virile sports. They hunted, fought bulls in the arena, and drove their chariots, sometimes four horses abreast, around a dangerous course. They threw the discus and the javelin, pole-vaulted, raced, wrestled, boxed, and fought in gladiatorial bouts.

"Cruelty marked these games, for the Etruscans, like the Romans, thought it dangerous to let civilization get too far from the brute. Less heroic persons brandished dumbbells, threw dice, played the flute, or danced. Scenes of bibulous merriment relieve the paintings in the tombs. Sometimes they are symposia for men only, with vinous conversation. Now and then they show both sexes, richly dressed, reclining in pairs on elegant couches, eating and drinking, waited on by slaves, and entertained by dancers and musicians.

"Occasionally the meal is adorned with an amorous embrace."

Dangerous to let civilization get too far from the brute??

Robby

Percivel
September 3, 2003 - 05:35 am
>Dangerous to let civilization get too far from the brute??<<


If one can see the statement as a metaphor, it implies more than savagrey. Rather, it suggests the importance of physical fitness in health concerns. In the light of child health and obesity in today's news; perhaps our civilization needs to get closer to "the brute."

georgehd
September 3, 2003 - 05:48 am
Robby, sorry for the duplicate post. I get the Sunday Times two days late and just got interested in seeing the article.

robert b. iadeluca
September 3, 2003 - 05:49 am
Good to have you with us, Percivel, and thanks for giving us another perspective on the term "brute." As you imply, many of our citizens today (especially children) are sitting inside and employing the civilized facilities of a TV rather than doing some aerobic (brutish) exercises.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 3, 2003 - 05:52 am
No problem, George. Our postings move so rapidly in Story of Civilization that it is possible at times to miss one. This is why in the last paragraph of the BROWN quotes I say "join our group daily."

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
September 3, 2003 - 06:21 am
There are those who would say we are already too close to the brute in diet, the way we dress, sometimes undisciplined behavior, unrestrained emotion, etc. I see much Greek-Oriental influence on these Early Italians.

Mal

tooki
September 3, 2003 - 06:28 am
Winsum (post 58)- Those big words for different sized and shaped heads are still used, as far as I can determine. Posting them in Googoll (assuming you spell that right) will net you lots of interesting stuff.

The Durants' statement that the Etruscans believed civilization shouldn't stray too far from the brute also being a belief of the Romans is, I think, the key to where the Durants are going with that view. They are introducing the concept of brutishness because, I'll bet on this, this will eventually characterize the Romans as basically louts, as compared to the effete Greeks, and the Orientals.

However, I agree with Perceival that we should fight obesity because it's not only brutish, it's ugly.

Ginny
September 3, 2003 - 06:44 am
This is very exciting, isn't it? What a joy to see such intelligent discussion of centuries old material (and so dear to my heart). I have my book, have never understood the Etruscans (and apparently a lot of us dont: all the talk in Rome last year was the new museum of the Etruscans and how there is so much we didn't realize: they were a LOT more advanced than previously thought), how exciting to see everybody discussing it, how much we will all learn!

I have a photo somewhere of an Etruscan sarcophagus which apparently for the ancient world was startling in that it showed a preeminent role of women if I remember that correctly, (the Etruscans are almost a tabula rasa to me) will try to find the right one, NOTHING is more exciting to me than the world of the Caesars, so glad to see you all embarked again on an adventure of learning, so well done, Robby, kudos to all of you!!

lurker in SC

Malryn (Mal)
September 3, 2003 - 07:13 am
Below is a link to a web page I set up which has a picture on it that will give you a good idea of how Etruscan people looked.

Etruscans

ALF
September 3, 2003 - 07:16 am

Malryn (Mal)
September 3, 2003 - 07:16 am
National Etruscan Museum, Rome

Malryn (Mal)
September 3, 2003 - 07:25 am
Etruscan writing

Etruscan artwork. Click right arrow to see many more pages like this

Malryn (Mal)
September 3, 2003 - 07:31 am
Etruscan Cult of the Dead

Etruscan Social Life

moxiect
September 3, 2003 - 07:33 am
The mystery of the Etrucans is unraveling for me, there is so much to learn here. Great!

georgehd
September 3, 2003 - 07:57 am
Here is the link to the art time line that includes work by the Etruscans.

http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/ht/04/eust/ht04eust.htm

winsum
September 3, 2003 - 11:51 am
The durants are beginning to editorialize . . . not pure history or poetry but opinion now . what's good the for new york times is good for . . . . (G) I looked at the picture accompanying the map. lloks like an upscale orange county tract except for the ?cypress trees. not so many of them here but lots of red roofs and white walls. a latin influence major latin popu;ation here in southern CA but they are the poor people who came north to find work for the most part.

The mexicans took after the italians in many things expecially their music (opera) and their sports . . . bull fighting? wom,en were and are chattle though and religion probably interferred with the practice of public love making but it can still be found in bars in baja...I know a gentleman who enjoys that kind of thing and goes down there regularily to indulge. .. I'm thinking that they looked like them too.

kiwi lady
September 3, 2003 - 12:09 pm
The Etruscans look Oriental don't you think? Wish my book would hurry up! I am watching the mail each day.

Carolyn

robert b. iadeluca
September 3, 2003 - 03:57 pm
"The Etruscan pantheon was fully equipped to terrify the growing ego and ease the tasks of parentage. The greatest of the gods was Tinia, who wielded the thunder and lightning.

"About him, as a committee pitilessly carrying out his commands, were the Twelve Great Gods, so great that it was sacrilege(and we may therefore neglect) to pronounce their names. Especially fearsome were Mantus and Mania, master and mistress of the underworld, each with an executive horde of winged demons.

"Lease appeasable of all was Lasa or Mean, goddess of fate, brandishing snakes or a sword, and armed with stylus and ink to write, and hammer and nails to affix, her unalterable decrees. Pleasanter were the Lares and Penates -- little statuettes kept on the hearth, and symbolizng the spirits of field and home.

"The sacred science of ascertaining the future by studying the livers of sheep or the flight of birds had probably come down to the Etruscans from Babylonia. According to their own traditions it had been revealed to them by a divine boy, grandson of Tinia, who sprang to life from a furrow freshly turned, and at once spoke with the wisdom of a sage.

"Etruscan victims were slaughtered or buried alive at the funerals of the great. In some cases prisoners of war were massacred as a propitiation of the gods. The Phoceans taken at Alalia in 535 B.C. were stoned to death in the forum of Caere, and some 300 Romans captured in 358 B.C. were sacrificed at Tarquinii.

"The Etruscan appears to have believed that for every enemy slain he could secure the release of a soul from hell."

Once again religion enters the scene.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 3, 2003 - 04:39 pm
Andy (for Andrea) -- ALF!! Meant to say "hello" to you!! You knew you were welcome.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 3, 2003 - 05:08 pm
This ARTICLE is about another location and another time but it illustrates that although ART sometimes depicts the views of Religion, that there is also an eternal conflict between Art and Religion.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 3, 2003 - 07:15 pm
"The dead spirit, as seen in the sepulchral representation, was conducted by genii to the tribunal of the Underworld, where in a Last Judgment it was given an opportunity to defend its conduct in life. If it failed, it was condemned to a variety of torments that left their mark on Virgil (reared on Mantua's Etruscan lore), on the early Christian conception of hell, and, through these and twenty centuries, on Tuscan Dante's Inferno. From such damnation the good were spared, and the sufferings of the damned might be shortened by the prayers or sacrifices of their living friends. The saved soul passed from the underworld to the society of the gods above, there to enjoy feasts, luxuries, and powers depected hopefully on the tombs.

"Those who could afford it were laid to rest in sarcophagi of terra cotta or stone, and the lid was topped with reclining figures carved partly in their likeness, partly in the smiling style of the archaic Greek Apollos. Here, again, Etruscan traditions contributed to medieval art.

"Occasionally the dead were cremated and placed in cinerary urns, which also might be adorned with the figure of the deceased. In many cases the urn or tomb simulated a house. Sometimes the tomb, cut into the rock, was divided into rooms, and was equipped for post-mortem living with furniture, utensils, vases, clothing, weapons, mirrors, cosmetics, and gems.

"In a tomb at Caere the skelton of a warrior lay on a perfectly preserved bed of bronze, with weapons and chariots beside it. In a chamber behind his were the ornaments and jewelry of a woman presumably his wife. The dust that had been her beloved body was clothed in her bridal robes."

Robby

Justin
September 3, 2003 - 07:41 pm
Hell has appeared in most of the societies we have encountered thus far. It is not always called hell but hell it is. It is a punishment for disobeying the priests. Without hell, the priests have no power, other than that granted by royal rulers who often use the priests as a means for controlling their subjects. It is not surprising therefore that we find hell among the Etruscans. It may, of course, have found its way to Italy by way of Greece or Asia Minor.

It seems wrong to be speaking of "Italy", when Italy did not come into being until several millennia later. Tuscany, yes. Italy, No. Magna Gracia, yes. Italy , no. Durant does it too. He doesn't usually err that way. So, I wonder what's up.

tropicaltramp
September 3, 2003 - 08:51 pm
Thanks to you Claire, I have spent an enjoyable period reviewing this wonderful site. As for you Bobby, very very nice keep it going. I will be here as often as possible, I have a vested interest in archaeology, although mine only goes back perhaps 450 years and is centered in the new world.

robert b. iadeluca
September 4, 2003 - 03:39 am
A warm greeting to you, Tropical Tramp! We are pleased to have you as a member of our family. Currently there are 17 of us participating in "Caesar and Christ" and more expressing interest.

As for "keeping it going," we opened The Story of Civilization on November 1, 2001 with Durant's first volume, "Our Oriental Heritage," and continued for 10 months with a total of 6977 postings. We began Durant's second volume, "The Life of Greece," on September 17, 2002 and continued for another 10 months with a total of 7760 postings. With the continued interest of Senior Netters, who knows how long we will discuss this fascinating volume?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 4, 2003 - 04:55 am
I will not continue to remind participants to regularly check the GREEN quotes in the Heading above. It is my hope that everyone here will get into the habit, as they scroll down through the Heading, of pausing at the GREEN quotes to see if they have changed.

"We can trace in Etruscan art the manners and morals of the people, the power of religion and caste, and the changing tides of economic and cultural contct with Asia Minor, Egypt, Greece, and Rome. It was an art fetterd by ecclesiastical conventions and liberated by technical skill. It reflected a brutal and obscurantist civilization, but expressed it with character and force.

"Oriental influences -- Ionic, Cypriot, Egyptian -- dictated its earlier forms and styles, and Greek models dominated its later sculpture and pottery. In architecture and painting, however, in bronze statuary and the working of metals, Etruscan art spoke with its own voice and was unique.

"The architectural remains are never more than fragments or tombs. Parts of Etruria's city walls still stand -- heavy structures of uncemented masonry firmly and accurately joined. The homes of rich Etruscans defined the classic design of the Italian house -- a deliberately forbidding external wall, a central atrium or reception room, an opening in the roof of the atrium to let rain fall into a cistern below, and a circuit of small chambers surrounding the atrium and often faced by a colonnaded porch.

"Vitruvius has described Etruscan temples, and the tombs sometimes take their form. Essentially they followed Greek models. The 'Tuscan style' modified the Doric by leaving the column unfluted, giving it a base, and planning the cells on a six-to-five proportion of length to breadth, instead of the more graceful Attic relation of six-to-three.

"A cella of brick, a peristyle of stone, architraves and pediments of wood, reliefs and ornaments in terra cotta, the whole resting on a podium or elevation, and brightly painted outside and within -- this was the Etruscan temple. For secular mass architecture -- for city gates and walls, aqueducts and drains -- the Etruscans introduced the arch and vault to Italy. Apparently they had brought these majestic forms from Lydia, which had taken them from Babylonia.

"They did not follow up this brilliant method of covering great spaces without a confusion of columns and an oppressive weight of architraves. For the most part they walked in the grooves worn by the Greeks, and left Rome to consummate the arcuate revolution."

Someone like myself who is not that knowledgeable in the technical architectural terms sometimes gets caught up in the "gobbledigook." However, I try to see it not as instruction in architecture but a method of better understanding what their everyday life was like -- their economy, their religion, and their family life.

Robby

tigerliley
September 4, 2003 - 06:13 am
Robbie I am still a lurker in your discussions......much to read and learn.........

robert b. iadeluca
September 4, 2003 - 06:26 am
Nice to hear from you again, Tigerliley! That makes 18 of us in our friendly family.

Please remember, lurkers, no one is expecting a brilliant remark from you. As Tigerliley says, we are all "reading and learning." Questions are permitted, you know. There is no such thing as a stupid question.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
September 4, 2003 - 07:27 am
Etruscan pottery

Malryn (Mal)
September 4, 2003 - 07:47 am
Etruscan music, fashion, aristocracy, architecture

tooki
September 4, 2003 - 10:35 am
So, according to Durant, Etruscan art "reflected a brutal and obscurantist civilization," and "they walked in the grooves worn by the Greeks." In my opinion, Durant didn't "like" the Etruscans, and gave them only a cusory treatment. (Notice that he has other nasty things to say about them as this chapter develops). In Mal's post above you can see evidence of their high degree of civilized attainment. Her post,Mysterious Etruscans, contains a "Site Map," directing you to other facets of their marvelous culture and civilization. You might go to Engineering and Agriculture for a fascinating description of the excavation of the Port of Spina, which was buried in the river Po. Their accomplishments in hyrology were the foundation of the Roman efforts. It is possible that not much was known when the Durants wrote. The excavation of Spina was in 1954. I say let's give the Durants the benefit of the doubt.

robert b. iadeluca
September 4, 2003 - 10:51 am
As we delve into the past, I would suggest that comments by any historian (including Durant) or anthropoloigst or archeologist not be cast in stone. This is why this is called a "discussion" group. One person's opinion here is as important as any other, including that of Durant. I tend to lean upon him because I respect his experience and knowledge more than mine but I don't equate him with Zeus!!

Robby

moxiect
September 4, 2003 - 11:56 am
The mystery surrounding the Etrucans is being ever so slowly uncovered. I gather from all this discourse that they(the Etrucans) assimulated into the Romans camp. Hence the saying my "nanno" use to constantly say "When in Rome do as the Romans do".

Robby, does that sound right to you?

Malyrn, many thanks for the informative links you provide.

georgehd
September 4, 2003 - 01:51 pm
Some of you may have seen Frances Mayes, author of Under the Tuscan Sky, interviewed on Sunday (her second interview). While I have not read the book, it sounds as if it would be a glorious contemporary introduction to the region we are considering.

Robby, would it be too much to ask you to associate pages numbers with the quotes that you post. I do not get to this site everyday and would appreciate that bit of information. I continue to be amazed at the amount of information available to us on the web. Thanks one and all for the links.

Malryn (Mal)
September 4, 2003 - 02:24 pm
There is no way of authenticating the Mysterious Etruscans link I posted earlier because the webmaster for those pages did not include his or her name or credentials, as far as I can see. I chose those pages for the pictures on them; not the facts presented.

Will and Ariel Durant's volumes of The Story of Civilization have been studied by scholars for years and years. The facts they present were accurate for the time in which they researched and wrote these books, and can be proved.

I don't see that Will Durant and Ariel are shortchanging the Etruscans. Volume III, after all, is about the Roman Empire, a mammoth job to research and write about in itself.

Mal

hegeso
September 4, 2003 - 02:50 pm
I have a URL for Etruscan art: http://www.christusrex.org/www1/vaticano/ET1-Etrusco.html (Sorry, I don't know how to make it clickable.)

I am very reluctant to post a rather unorthodox opinion, but let me attempt. The so-called 'archaic smile' is sometimes not really archaic but rather a cruel vampire-like expression. Look at the Apollos.

To be even more unorthodox, let me talk about the genii taking the departed to the beyond. I noticed that the females are snatched by male genii; and the males, by females. It means that they insinuated something erotic into the experience of dying. Their culture was cruel, but their art was great.

Malryn (Mal)
September 4, 2003 - 03:19 pm
Thanks for that terrific link, hegeso.

Mal

kiwi lady
September 4, 2003 - 03:33 pm
The murals in Mals links have a distinct Greek influence as I see it.

The pottery reminds me of Incan pottery. The Etruscans seem to be a curious mix.

Carolyn

Justin
September 4, 2003 - 05:09 pm
Surviving elements of Etruscan art are almost entirely funereal. However, the iconography of these works tend to reflect the life style of the Etruscans. A walk in an American cemetary reflects our interest in myth and the supernatural. Not so in an Etruscan tomb. Here, one finds life as it was lived. The memorials depict the dead smiling, engaged in erotic activity, both heterosexual and homosexual. Some symbols are evident in some tombs. Bulls are common.

Greek influence is strong largely because the Greeks were colonizing in this period and trade was active. Some excavation sites show the outlines of houses that resemble those we have seen before at Akadia and Babylonia. Frescoes are done in color and resemble those we saw at Crete.

Arches appear in Etruscan architecture.You will note that arches disappeared in Greek Archtecture. The last time we saw structures built with arches was in Babylonia. I think, this is evidence that the Etruscans were influenced by people from Asia Minor or that their origin was in Asia Minor and they brought with them building elements from the area between the Tigris and Euphates.

robert b. iadeluca
September 4, 2003 - 05:42 pm
A warm welcome to you, Hegeso! You gave us a wonderful link.

George, you can easily locate where we are by looking at the Heading immediately over the green quotes. That will lead you to the section we are discussing. Right now we are under the heading, "Etruscan Art" just as stated in the book. Prior to that we were under "Etruscan Life." The next section will be "Rome Under the Kings" etc. Very easy to locate.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 4, 2003 - 05:52 pm
"Every museum abounds in pottery, setting the weary navigator of ceramic halls to wonder what unseen perfection exonerates these stores. Etruscan vases, when they are not clearly copies of Greek forms, are mediocre in design, crude in execution, barbarous in ornament. No other art has produced so many distortions of the human frame, so many hideous masks, uncouth animals, monstrous demons, and terrifying gods.

"But the black wares (bucchero nero) of the sixth century B.C. have an Italian vigor, and perhaps represent an indigenous development of Villanovan styles. Fine vases were found at Vulci and Tarquinli -- imported from Athens or imitated from black-figured Attic shapes. The Francois Vase, a huge amphora discovered at Chiusi by a Frenchman of that name, was apparently the work of the Greek masters Clitias and Ergotimus. The later urns, red-figured on a black ground, are elegant, but again evidently of Greek manufacture. Their abundance suggests that the Attic potters had captured the Etruscan market and driven the native workers into merely industrial production.

"All in all, the robbers were justified who, when they rifled Etruscan tombs, left so much of the pottery."

Your comments, please?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 4, 2003 - 06:41 pm
"The elder Pliny described frescoes at Ardea 'of older age than Rome itself' and at Caere others of 'still greater antiquity' and 'supreme beauty.' The art used pottery, and the interiors of homes and tombs, for its surfaces. Only tomb frescoes and vase pictures remain, but in such quantity that every stage of Etruscan painting can be traced in them, from Oriental and Egyptian, through Greek and Alexandrian, to Roman and Pompeian styles.

"In some tombs we find the first Italian examples of windows, portals, columns, porticoes, and other architectural forms mimicked by painting on inner walls, in the very manner of Pompeii. Often the colors of these frescoes are faded. A few are astonishingly fresh and brilliant after more than a score of centuries. The technique is mediocre. In the earlier pictures there is no perspective, no foreshortening, no use of light and shade to give fullness and depth. The figures are Egyptianly slender, as if seen in a horizontally convex mirror. The faces are regularly in profile, wherever the feet may point.

"In the later examples perspective and foreshortening appear, and the proportions of the body are represented with greater fidelity and skill.

"But in either case there is in these paintings a frolicsome and impish vivacity that makes one wonder how pleasant the life of the Etruscans must have been, if their tombs were so gay."

Robby

winsum
September 4, 2003 - 07:32 pm
I saw this and immediately thought of

"the greatest of the gods was Tinia, who wielded the thunder and lightning."

ZEUS and all those thunder bolts in the greeek myths.

Justin
September 4, 2003 - 08:51 pm
The pottery found in Etruscan tombs is largely imported from Greece. Bucchero, on the other hand can be traced to Etruscan kilns. The Greek pottery forms and shapes correspond nicely with the various Greek pottery periods. The geometric designs date well with the Greek period as does the orientalizing effects of the later period. Clearly, this part of the continent must have been well within Magna Gracia or at the very least, a site on the trading route.

robert b. iadeluca
September 5, 2003 - 03:32 am
"It was the natural destiny of the Etruscans to expand north and south, to extend their sway to the foothills of the Alps and the Greek cities of Campania, and then to find themselves face to face, across the Tiber, with growing Rome.

"They established colonies at Verona, Padua, Mantua, Parma, Modena, Bologna, and beyond the Apennines at Rimini, Ravenna, and Adria. From this modest Etruscan outpost the Adriatic took its name.

"They hemmed in Rome with Etruscan settlements at Fidenae, Praeneste (Palestrina), and Capua, perhaps also at Cicero's Tusculum ('little Tuscany').

"Finally -- in 618 B.C., according to a precise and precarious tradition -- an Etruscan adventurer captured the throne of Rome. For a century the Roman nation was ruled and formed by Etruscan civilization and power."

Some familiar names here.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 5, 2003 - 12:52 pm
Anyone here interested in making a TRIP to Ancient Campania?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 5, 2003 - 01:03 pm
Various VIEWS of Verona.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 5, 2003 - 01:10 pm
Information about the THE APENNINES.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 5, 2003 - 01:36 pm
"No one knows whether the Villanovan migrants conquered, or exterminated, or merely married the neolithic population they found there. Slowly the agricultural villages of this historic region betwen the Tiber and the Bay of Naples coalesced into a few jealously sovereign city-states, loath to unite except in annual religious festivals or occasional wars.

"The strongest was Alba Longa, lying at the foot of Mr. Alban, probably where Castel Gandolfo now shelters the Pope on summer days. It was from Alba Longa, perhaps in the eighth century before Christ, that a colony of Latins -- greedy for conquest, or driven by the pressure of the birth rate upon the land -- moved some twenty miles to the northwest and founded the most famous of man's habitations.

"This hazardously hypothetical paragraph contains all that history dares say about the origin of Rome. But Roman tradition was not so parsimonious. When the Gauls burned the city in 390 B.C., most historical records were presumably destroyed, and thereafter patriotic fancy could paint a free picture of Rome's birth.

"What we should call April 22, 753 B.C., was given as the date, and events were reckoned A.U.C. -- anno urbis conditae -- 'in the year from the city's foundation.'

"A hundred tales and a thousand poems told how Aeneas, offspring of Aphrodite-Venus, had fled from burning Troy, and how, after suffering many lands and men, he had brought to Italy the gods or sacred effigies of Priam's city. Aeneas had married Lavinia, daughter of the king of Latium. Eight generations later their descendant Numitor, said the story, held the throne of Alba Longa, Latium's capital.

"A usurper, Amulius, expelled Numitor and, to end the line of Aeneas, killed Numitor's sons and forced his only daughter, Rhea Silvia, to become a priestess of Vesta, vowed to virginity.

"But Rhea lay down by the banks of a stream and 'opened her bosom to catch the breeze.' Too trustful of gods and men, she fell asleep. Mars, overcome with her beauty, left her rich with twins. Amulius ordered these to be drowned. They were placed on a raft, which kind waves carried to the land, they were suckled by a she-wolf (lupa) or -- said a skeptical variant -- by a shephere's wife, Acca Larentia, nicknamed Lupa because, like a wolf's, her love-making knew no law.

When Romulus and Remus grew up they killed Amulius, restored Numitor, and went resolutely forth to build a kingdom for themselves on the hills of Rome."

Comments, anyone?

Robby

georgehd
September 5, 2003 - 02:03 pm
Does anyone know what happens to Remus? Romulus seems to have an important role to play but there is no mention of Remus other than he was born.

I am amazed at how much fighting goes on between the various tribes. Men seemed to have little to do beside wage war. Inaction seemed to cause a decline.

robert b. iadeluca
September 5, 2003 - 02:10 pm
George:--Would you please elaborate a bit? You see inaction as causing a decline in "what?"

Robby

Shasta Sills
September 5, 2003 - 02:29 pm
I loved that "Votive Bust of a Woman" in Hegeso's site. She was so real that I felt she was looking at me out of my computer. What a beautiful head! I liked the "Statue of Mars" too, but why is the top of his head chopped off? He probably wore some kind of helmet that has been removed. Durant's criticism of art that lacks perspective and foreshortening is not valid criticism. Those are just skills that we learn to use. Great art does not depend on tricks like that.

I keep seeing that little "Gold Fibula" in several of the sites. What is this object? A fibula is a legbone, but this has nothing to do with a legbone. What is this object? Justin probably knows.

georgehd
September 5, 2003 - 02:59 pm
See the quote above " the vigor of the state was becoming enfeebled through inaction". It is interesting that I had the thought and then read the quote. We seem to require an ever expanding need for power, land, wealth, etc. War is a way of achieving those goals; when there is no war, we cannot satisfy these needs for "more". Today we can, to a limited extent, increase our wealth by increasing our productivity but I doubt that that was possible in ancient times.

robert b. iadeluca
September 5, 2003 - 03:23 pm
George:--I am still interested in what you meant by "decline."

Robby

Justin
September 5, 2003 - 05:42 pm
Shasta: A fibula is a clasp used to pin a toga in place. These are ornamental safety pins. Many were designed and crafted by goldsmiths. They are art objects.

The Japanese also use little fibulae to close their garments. Many of these are carved in interesting shapes and today are collected , also, as art objects. These pins or fibulae are called " netsuke" by the Japanese.

moxiect
September 5, 2003 - 05:43 pm
Robby

I have a question. The Etruscan's appear to have traded much on the mainland of Ancient Italy. Wouldn't they have also been involved with commerce in Sicily? There doesn't seem to be any info with their trading on Sicily. Help

Justin
September 5, 2003 - 05:51 pm
Aeneas comes to the shores of Tuscany by way of hell where he went to visit his father, Anchises. His ships are anchored off Tuscany waiting for the return of their leader, Aeneas, who visits with Pop in the green pastures of the underworld. Anchises is waiting for his turn to dip in the pool of forgetfulness before taking the elevator for his next visit to the world of the known. It is Anchises who tells Aeneas that he will found a great nation.

Justin
September 5, 2003 - 05:58 pm
Moxiect: Not only were the Greeks trading with Sicily, but the cities of Sicily, particulaly, Syracusa, and Messina, but many others as well, were Greek and a part of Magna Gracia. The Spartans went to war with Syracuse to obtain a greater share of the trading in that part of the world. Before the Greeks, the Phoenicians were strong in Sicily. Sicily was one of the most desired trading spots in the Med for many centuries. Far from being ignored, it was dominant in the ancient world.

Justin
September 5, 2003 - 07:15 pm
So many Christian ideas have their origins in the civilizations that preceded the birth of Christ that I am not surprised to find hell and judgement day among the Etruscans. Here in Etruscan life, the living could shorten the time of suffering for dead relatives by praying. It is not far from that concept to indulgences. We started seeing these Christian concepts in Sumeria, and then in Babylonia, Akadia,Persia, Egypt, and Greece. We are coming ever nearer to the time when the Christian label is pasted on these ideas.

tooki
September 5, 2003 - 08:23 pm
Here's the most famous Romulus and Remusbeing suckled by a she-wolf.

tropicaltramp
September 5, 2003 - 08:48 pm
still here every night, just reading and learning. no comment called for yet.

Justin
September 5, 2003 - 11:05 pm
Moxiect: I think the Greeks came to the Etruscans. The Etruscans did not come to the Greeks. Similarly, the Etruscans did not come to the Greeks on Sicily. I think the Etruscans were a stay at home people engaging in foot travel but not in sea travel. This may be a product of the Etruscan tendency to avoid amalgamation. They were really disunited villages, for the most part. Some were stronger than others but in the main they were not united. I think that characteristic led to their demise.

robert b. iadeluca
September 6, 2003 - 04:26 am
Stay with us, "Tramp," you will eventually see something that causes you to want to make a comment.

Durant continues:--

"Archeology offers no confirmation to these stories of our youth. Probably they contain a core of truth. Perhaps the latins sent a colony to develop Rome as a strategic moat against the expanding Etruscans. The site was twenty miles from the sea, and not well adapted to maritime commerce. In those days of marauding pirates it was an advantage to be a bit inland.

"For internal trade Rome was well placed but it was not a healthy location. Rains, floods, and springs fed malarial marshes in the surrounding plain and even in the lower levels of the city. Hence the popularity of the seven hills.

"The first of these to be settled, tradition said, was the Palatine, possibly because an island near its foot made easier there the foreding and bridging of the Tiber. One by one the neighboring slopes were peopled, until the human overflow crossed the river and built upon the Vatican and Janiculum. The three tribes -- Latins, Sabines, and Etruscans -- that dwelt on the hills joined in a federation, the Septimontium, and slowly merged into the city of Rome."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 6, 2003 - 04:29 am
Here is a PHOTO of the river Tiber.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 6, 2003 - 04:38 am
Here are MORE PHOTOS of the river Tiber. Give time to download and click on small photos for enlargement.

Robby

georgehd
September 6, 2003 - 05:59 am
These links have some material on the seven hills of Rome and its founding which I found interesting. The second link has some good photos.

http://ross.pvt.k12.ny.us/rome/hills/hills.html

http://sights.seindal.dk/sight/1247_The_Seven_Hills_of_Rome.html

tooki
September 6, 2003 - 06:20 am
George, your site above, "The 7 Hills of Rome" answers the question you asked in an earlier post about why we hear only about Romulus ruling. Doesn't it? I especially like, "Centuries later Romulus killed Remus."

tooki
September 6, 2003 - 06:28 am
"It was not a healthy location...." Apparently, Rome is still not a healthy place to live, in spite of draining the marshes and whatnot. I remember mention of its unhealthness in various pieces of literature. I am especially remembering, "The Roman Spring of Mrs. Stone." That ring a bell with anyone? How about you world travelers out there. Do any of you have comments about this supposedly unhealthy climate? (I myself can only discuss the horrid humidity and my torture in the Library while in Graduate School at the University of Illinois at Champaign-Urbana.)

Éloïse De Pelteau
September 6, 2003 - 07:06 am
Tooki, my trip to Rome go as far back as the 1970's and I was fortunate enough to climb on top of the Vatican Dome where I could view Rome from that vantage point. I remember the Tiber river as a small stream as compared with our rivers here in Canada, but the history in Rome made ample compensation for it.

Walking through these old narrow streets by the Coliseum, the famous Fountain of Trevi, seeing an opera, listening to the chanting language, the pleasant climate the flirting Italians, the Sistine Chapel with its Michaelangelo frescoes left an indelible mark. I wanted to spend months in Italy to explore it at length. Now I only pass through, so to speak.

Eloïse

Malryn (Mal)
September 6, 2003 - 07:44 am
Below is a link to some pictures I found of Tuscany. Click the thumbnail image to access a larger picture.

Tuscany

tooki
September 6, 2003 - 09:15 am
How fascinating. The hills of Tuscany are much like the Palouse Hills of Eastern Washington that are like the Russian Steppes, I hear. I loved living in the Palouse Hills. In winter, when the hills were covered with snow and the sun shone on them it was an elegant line drawing, changing constantly as the sun and clouds did.

The Palouse Hills of Eastern Washington Does it snow in Tuscany?

robert b. iadeluca
September 6, 2003 - 09:41 am
George:--Those were excellent links concerning the seven hills of Rome! I can see where this discussion group will be an excellent preparation for anyone who intends to visit Rome.

Robby

winsum
September 6, 2003 - 09:55 am
my life complex right now. just sold the house, the piano and the truck so will mosly lurk and come back to join the discussion later. this is a HOT one (S). . . . claire

robert b. iadeluca
September 6, 2003 - 09:59 am
"The ancient story goes on to tell how Romulus, to secure wives for his settlers, arranged some public games and invited the Sabines and other tribes to attend. During the races the Romans seized the Sabine women and drove off the Sabine men. Titus Tatius, King of the Sabine Curites tribe, declared war and advanced upon Rome.

"Tarpeia, daughter of the Roman who had charge of a fortress on the Capitoline, opened a gate to the invaders. They crushed her with their shields in fair recompense and later generations gave her name to that 'Tarpeian Rock' from which condemned men were hurled to death. As the troops of Tatius neared the Palatine, the Sabine women, not insensitive to the compliment of capture, secured an armistice on the plea that they would lose their husbands if the Curites won, and their brothers or fathers if the Curites won

"Romulus persuaded Tatius to share the kingdom with him and join his tribe with the Latins in a common citizensip. Thereafter the freemen of Rome were called Curites or Quirites.

"There may again be some elements of truth in this wholesale romance -- or perhaps it patriotically concealed a Sabine conquest of Rome."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 6, 2003 - 10:05 am
Basic INFO about the Sabines.

Robby

tropicaltramp
September 6, 2003 - 10:38 am
Still enjoying it My knowledge of the ancient Roman Empire is tied up with the Greeks so I will bide my time. Wonderful job people keep it up,

Eloise, for gentile flirting go to the chatters, no need to go to Rome. heheh.

robert b. iadeluca
September 6, 2003 - 11:18 am
"After a long reign Romulus was lifted up to heaven in a whirlwind, thereafter to be worshiped as Quirinus, one of Rome's favorite gods. Tatius too having died, the heads of the more important families chose a Sabine, Numa Pompilius, as king. Probably the real power of government, between the foundation of the city and the Etruscan domination, was in the hands of these elders, or senatores, while the functions of the king, like those of the archon basileus in coeval Athens, were chiefly those of the highest priest.

Tradition pictured Numa as a Sabine Marcus Aurelius, at once philosopher and saint. By establishing a uniform worship for the diverse tribes of Rome, Numa strengthened the unit and stability of the state. By interesting the bellicose Romans in religion, Cicero thought, Numa gave his people forty years of peace. His successor, Tullus Hostilius, restored to the Romans their normal life. He chose Rome's mother city, Alba Longa, as an enemy, attacked it, and completely destroyed it. When the Alban king broke a promise of alliance, Tullus had him tied to two chariots and torn to pieces by driving the chariots in opposite directions. His successor, Ancus Martius, agreed with his martial philosophy."

So the leader interested the populace in religion, established a uniform worship, and thereby brought peace to the people -- bringing the state and the temple together. Am I understanding this correctly?

Robby

georgehd
September 6, 2003 - 12:57 pm
Tooki, I totally missed the killing of Remus in that link. Thank you. I have a very red face.

Justin
September 6, 2003 - 01:01 pm
Of course, Robby, your perception is fine. This Sabine thing is just one more example of a ruler using religion to control the populace. We've seen the practice employed so often, it is old hat.

tooki
September 6, 2003 - 01:30 pm
has been a theme that has fascinated artists since it happened. Among others, Poussin and Rubens painted it, and Bologna sculpted it. My favorite one is this by Picassco which looks much like Guernerica. Picasso's Rape of the Sabine Women

robert b. iadeluca
September 6, 2003 - 01:41 pm
I don't pretend to be a Picasso fan. Chaqu'un a son gout.

But did I read correctly that the Sabine women did not want to lose their husbands, i.e. the men who originally raped them?

Robby

Shasta Sills
September 6, 2003 - 01:51 pm
The Picasso certainly expresses the violence and chaos of war, doesn't it. I flicked through that site and watched Picasso's style change through his long career. That chronological series is an interesting way to look at how his work progressed.

robert b. iadeluca
September 6, 2003 - 02:03 pm
"About 655 B.C. Demaratus, a rich merchant banished from Corinth, came to live in Tarquinii, and married an Etruscan woman. His son Lucius Tarquinius migrated to Rome, rose to high position there and either seized the throne or, more probably, was chosen to it by a coalition of Etruscan families in the city."Says Livy, 'He was the first who canvassed for the crown, and delivered a set speech to secure the support of the plebs' -- i.e. those citizens who could not trace their ancestry to the founding fathers.

"Under this Tarquinius Priscus, Etruscan influence grew in Roman politics, engineering, religion, and art. Tarquin fought successfully against the Sabines, and subjugated all Latium. He used the resources of Rome, we are told, to adorn Tarquinii and other Etruscan cities, but also he brought Etruscan and Greek artists to his capital and beautified it with majestic temples."

In other words, he lobbied the middle class people on behalf of the local administration, meanwhile spending local funds in other cities and simultaneously bringing artists from other cities to earn money in his area. Am I being too cynical here?

Robby

moxiect
September 6, 2003 - 06:09 pm
Justin: Thank you! It does seem strange to find that the Etruscans remained more inland. But for the life of me, I can remember my grandparents speaking of them. Course the spoke in their dialect and I was very little and am unable to remember, wish I could.

robert b. iadeluca
September 6, 2003 - 06:32 pm
"Facts" about the FIRST KING OF ROME and additional intriguing information.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 6, 2003 - 06:41 pm
How the city-state of TARQUINII was founded.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 6, 2003 - 06:50 pm
Here is an ABSOLUTELY FASCINATING LINK to the city of Tarquinia, Italy, and the surrounding area of the ancient Etruscans.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 6, 2003 - 07:11 pm
"After a reign of thirty-eight years the first Tarquin was assassinated by the patricians, who aimed to limit the kingship again to a religious role. But Tarquin's widow, Tanaquil, took charge of the situation and was able to transmit the throne to her son Servius Tullius.

"Servius, says Cicero, was the first 'to hold the royal power without being chosen by the people' -- i.e. by the leading families. He governed well, and built a protective moat and wall around rome. But the great landowners resented his rule and plotted to unseat him. Consequently he allied himself with the richer members of the plebs, and reorganized the army and the voters to strengthen his position.

"Taking a census of persons and property, he classified the citizens according to wealth rather than birth, so that while leaving the old aristocracy intact, he raised up as a balance to it a class of equites, literally, horsemen -- men who could equip themselves with horse (equus) and armor to serve in the cavalry. The census reported some 80,000 persons capable of bearing arms.

"Servius divided the people into thirty-five new tribes, arranging them according to place of residence rather than kinship or rank. Thereby, like Cleisthenes a generation later in Attica, he weakened the political cohesion and voting power of the aristocracy -- the class that rated itself supreme by birth.

"When another Tarquin, grandson of Tarquinius Priscus, charged Servius with ruling illegally, he submitted himself to a plebiscite and received 'a unanimous vote.' Unconvinced, Tarquin had Servius assassinated, and announced himself king."

So the answer to gerrymandering is kill the idea -- literally.

Robby

Justin
September 6, 2003 - 10:14 pm
Tooki: I appreciated your comments about the Sabine Women and the art works inspired by the story of their rape.The work of the sculptor Giovanni Bologna whom you mentioned is often overlooked in the art world. His work on the "Rape" is outstanding though derivative. Michelangelo, was designing and building architecture. His work in sculpture was complete. In painting, the Mannerists were in the ascendancy. The "Laocoon" had been dug up in Herculaneum, early in the century. It is a Greek work of the Hellenist period. Its forms are alive and strugling although contained. Giovanni Bologna ( actually a Frenchman named Jean de Boulogne) changed the gender composition of Laocoon and produced the "Rape" in the Mannerist style. It would be very nice if someone would bring these two works up so we can all see them. While we are here talking about the Sabine women, it is well to take advantage of an opportunity to see and understand a significant turn in sculpture. This guy is the link between Michelangelo and Bernini

Malryn (Mal)
September 6, 2003 - 10:49 pm
Laocoon



Rape of the Sabine Women by Giovanni Bologna

Rape of the Sabine Women by Jacque-Louis David

robert b. iadeluca
September 7, 2003 - 02:43 am
Excellent explanations by Justin and excellent links by Mal.

I think of this ancient story where the Romans wanted to use (rape) the women of other cultures to further their own civilization and the recent event of the Serbian men who raped the women in Kosovo to "pass along" the blood in their own veins. The Serbian men didn't bring the women back home and marry them but rape is rape.

Anyone see similarities and/or differences?

Robby

georgehd
September 7, 2003 - 04:32 am
"Rape is rape". I find it interesting that so many male artists used the subject of rape in their work. Thanks Mal for the links.

robert b. iadeluca
September 7, 2003 - 04:43 am
"Under Tarquinius Superbus ('the Proud') Etruscan influence became supreme. The patricians had thought of the rex as the executive of the Senate and chief priest of the national religion. They cold not long consent to unlimited royal power.

"Therefore they had killed Tarquinius Priscus and had raised no hand to protect Servius. But this new Tarquin was worse than the first. He surrounded himself with a bodyguard, degraded freemen with months of forced labor, had citizens crucified in the Forum, put to death many leaders of the upper classes, and ruled with an insolent brutality that won him the hatred of all influential men.

"Thinking to gain popularity by successful wars, he attacked the Rutuli and the Volscians. While he was with the army the Senate assembled and deposed him (508 B.C.) in one of the great turning points of Roman history."

Comments, anyone?

Robby

tooki
September 7, 2003 - 06:59 am
Tarquin is also credited with building the "Cloaca Maxima, or Supreme Sewer." Although relegated by the Durants to a footnote, the construction of this sewer (large enough to drive a wagon in. Ugh!) was an event of great importance in a city built on malerial marshes. The Big Muddy.

I'll choose a gigantic sewer over majestic temples any day.

Percivel
September 7, 2003 - 07:07 am
>Of course, Robby, your perception is fine. This Sabine thing is just one more example of a ruler using religion to control the populace. We've seen the practice employed so often, it is old hat. <<


Don't know of any organization, uniting people in a common cause, that does not have standards, goals and beliefs in common among its memgers. Would not chose to call this "artifact" religion, but at least some could be so called.

Éloïse De Pelteau
September 7, 2003 - 08:15 am
Michaelangelo's David in Florence

I am so pleased that I saw the original David on a trip to Italy years ago. Florence has so many great museums, but David standing on a high pedestal, is majestic. When I went to the Academia it was daylight, not like in the link above and the beauty of that sculpture causes you to hold your breath. After this, you spend a long time just mesmerized. We had a room on the seventh floor of a small no star hotel overlooking the dome of the Duomo in old Florence. We bought food and wine downstairs from a vendor and stayed up late in not wanting to sleep for fear of erasing the memory of these marvelous, unequaled works of art.

Eloïse

georgehd
September 7, 2003 - 11:36 am
I read Tooki's post about the Great Sewer of Rome and want to call your attention to a fascinating article by David Grann in the New Yorker, September 1st. It is about the building of the third and newest tunnel to provide water to New York City - the third tunnel to be constructed. It has been under development since 1969 and is one of the largest engineering projects in history. It is hoped to be completed in 2020. The article puts into perspective modern versus ancient engineering projects. I had no idea that New Yorkers consume 1.3 billion gallons of water a day. Unfortunately I do not believe that the article can be accessed on the web without a subscription.

robert b. iadeluca
September 7, 2003 - 11:43 am
This LINK gives information about the new NYC water tunnel.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 7, 2003 - 12:45 pm
"Here the prose of politics is fused into the poetry of love. One evening (says Livy), in the King's camp at Ardea, his son, Sextus Tarquin, was debating with a relative, Lucius Tarquinius Collatinus, the comparative virtue of their wives. Collatinus proposed that they should take horse to Rome and surprise their ladies in the late hours of the night. They found the wife of Sextus feasting with intimates, but Lucretia, wife of Collatinus, was spinning wool for her husband's clothing.

"Sextus was inflamed with desire to try Lucretia's fidelity and enjoy her love. A few days later he returned secretly to the home of Lucretia and overcame her by wile and force. Lucretia sent for her father and her husband, told them what had happened, and then stabbed herself to death. Thereupon Lucius Junius Brutus, a friend of Collatinus, called upon all good men to drive the Tarquins from Rome.

"He himself was a nephew of the King. His father and his brother had been put to death by Tarquin, and he had gained his cognomen Brutus -- i.e. idiot -- by pretending lunacy so that he might be spared for his revenge. Now he rode with Collatinus to the capital, told Lucretia's story to the Senate, and persuaded it to banish all the royal family. The King had meanwhile left the army and hurried to Rome. Brutus, apprised of this, rode out to the army, told Lucretia's story again, and won the soldiers' support. Tarquin fled north, and appealed to Etruria to restore him to his throne.

"An assembly of the citizen-soldiers was now convened. Instead of a king chosen for life it elected two consuls with equal and rival powers, to rule for a year.

"These first consuls, says the tradition, were Brutus and Collatinus. Collatinus resigned, and was replaced by Publius Valerius, who won the name Publicola -- 'friend of the people' -- by putting through the Assembly several laws that remained basic in Rome -- that any man who should try to make himself king might be killed without trial -- that any attempt to take a public office without the people's consent should be punishable with death -- and that any citizen condemned by a magistrate to death or flogging should have the right of appeal to the Assembly.

"It was Valerius who inaugurated the custom whereby a consul, upon entering the Assembly, must part the axes from the rods and lower them as a sign of the people's sovereignty and sole right, in peace, to impose a sentence of death."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 7, 2003 - 04:07 pm
"The revolution had two main results -- it freed Rome from Etruscan ascendancy and replaced the monarcy with an aristocracy that ruled Rome until Caesar. The political position of the poorer citizens was not improved. On the contrary, they were required to surrender the lands that Servius had given them, and they lost the modest measure of protection with which the monarchy had shielded them from aristocratic domination.

"The victors called the revolution a triumph of liberty -- but now and then liberty, in the slogans of the strong, means freedom from restraint in the exploitation of the weak."

The king loses. The land owners win and declare it a victory for freedom. Those with small plots of land lose them. The plot is set for creation of a republic.

Robby

tropicaltramp
September 7, 2003 - 06:14 pm
actually this shoud be called "Story of 'Western' Civilization" hhehehhehe still watching people

icon
September 7, 2003 - 06:46 pm
I have just discovered this treasure room, congratulations to all ! I hope to be able to join in when I have returned from investigating previous contributions.

Malryn (Mal)
September 7, 2003 - 06:47 pm
TRAMP, the first volume of Will and Ariel Durant's The Story of Civilization is called "Our Oriental Heritage". It began November 1, 2001 and ended September 21, 2002. You can read the archived discussions starting HERE. Sorry, I can't seem to access the beginning of the discussion, Section 1. There are 7 sections to it, each one containing just about 1000 posts.

Mal

Justin
September 7, 2003 - 11:44 pm
I find the story of Lucrezia and her response to Tarquin's visit unusual in light of the everyday licentiousness (by contemporary western standards)exhibited by the Etruscan population. There was very little familial loyalty for men or for women and every child was a ward of the community.

robert b. iadeluca
September 8, 2003 - 03:17 am
Icon:--Thank you for calling this a "treasure room." It is the contribution of participants like yourself that make it so. Counting yourself, there are now 20 of us. We look forward to hearing your comments.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 8, 2003 - 03:33 am
"The Etruscan power had been expelled, but the marks and relics of Etruscan influence were to survive in Roman civilization to its end. That influence was apparently least on the Latin language. Nevertheless, the Roman numerals are probably Etruscan.

"The Romans believed that they had taken from Etruria the ceremonies of a returning conqueror's triumph, the purple hemmed robes and ivory curule (chariotlike) seat of the magistrates, and the rods and axes carried before each consul by twelve lictors in token of his authority to strike and kill. The coins of Rome, centuries before she had a fleet, were adorned with the prow of a ship -- long used in the coinage of Etruria to symbolize her commercial activity and naval power.

"From the seventh to the fourth centuries B.C., it was a custom among Roman aristocrats to send their sons to Etruscan cities for higher education. There, among other things, they learned geometry, surveying, and architecture. Roman dress derived from the Etruscan, or both from a common source.

"The first actors, and their name histriones, came to Rome from Etruria. It was Tarquinius Priscus, if we may believe Livy, who built the first Circus Maximus, and imported race horses and pugilists from Etruria for Roman games. The Etruscans gave Rome brutal gladiatorial contests, but they also transmitted to Rome a higher status of woman than could be found in Greece.

"Etruscan engineers built the walls and sewers of Rome, and turned it from a swamp into a protected and civilized capital. From Etruria Rome took most of her religious ritual, her augurs, haruspices, and soothsayers, as late as Julian (A.D. 363). Etruscan soothsayers were an official part of every Roman army."

We are preparing to move onto The Republic. Before we do so, any comments here about the Etruscans and what they gave not only to the Romans, but possibly to us?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 8, 2003 - 04:28 am
Is the average person interested in history? This NY TIMES ARTICLE gives one answer.

Robby

tooki
September 8, 2003 - 05:42 am
before we leave the "Etruscan Prelude." Many of the Etruscan/Roman myths, as with the Greek myths, lent themselves to depiction in sculpture and painting. "Lucretia" being one of them. And as we have seen with Picasso's "The Myth of the Sabine Woman" some are still favorites. Now, I don't want to be thought of as a philistine (speaking of ancient concepts), but many of the "artistic" treatments of these mythological and/or historical events has resulted in what I call "soft porn." In my opinion soft porn is art that uses a supposedly serious or moral subject to show some skin. As the famed comment by the Supreme Court Justice went, when asked to define pornography he said, "I can't define it, but I know it when I see it."

Here is a site that has some examples. You need not bother reading because we've already covered it, but scroll down and click on the thumbnails for a nice view of "Aeneas Fleeing From Troy," "Death of Dido," and "Lucretia." Now I'll go look for Rembrant's Lucretia, or however he spells his name.

tooki
September 8, 2003 - 05:52 am
Now, he knew how to elict our sympathies.

A Masterpiece

And make us think, to really understand the emotion underlying the myth.

robert b. iadeluca
September 8, 2003 - 05:59 am
One of my cousins holds a Masters in Fine Arts. When, in class, she began to draw in front of live male models, this upset my aunt considerably. Is that soft porn? I wonder how the Supreme Court Justice who stated that he recognized obscenity when he saw it, would have judged that.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 8, 2003 - 06:19 am
Durant continues:--

"With Etruscan rites Romulus was believed to have laid out the limits of Rome. From the same source came the Roman wedding ceremony, with its symbolism of capture, and the Roman ceremonial funeral.

"Rome took her musical modes and instruments from Etruria. Most of artists were Etruscans, and the Roman street where the artists worked was called Vicus Tuscus. The arts themselves, however, may have filtered in through Latium from the Campanian Greeks.

"Sculptural portraiture in Rome was deeply influenced by the death masks made for the family gallery -- a custom taken from Etruria. Etruscan sculptors adorned the temples and palaces of Rome with bronze statuary and terra-cotta figures and reliefs.

"Etruscan architects bequeathed to Rome a 'Tuscan style' that still survives in the colonnade of St. Peter's Church. Etruscan kings at Rome seem to have built her first large edifices, and to have transformed Rome from an assemblage of earthen or wooden huts into a city of wood, brick, and stone. Not until Caesar would Rome see again so much building as under Etruscan rule.

"We must not exaggerate. However much Rome learned from her neighbors, she remained, in all the basic features of life, distinctively herself. Nothing in Etruscan history quite suggests the Roman character -- the grave self-discipline, the cruelty and courage, the patriotism and stoic devotion that patiently conquered, and then patiently ruled, the Mediterranean states.

"Now Rome was free."

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
September 8, 2003 - 07:08 am
I saw a fascinating show last night about the beginning of musical notation. There was an example of how early religious chants (like the Gregorian chants) were passed along before music was written down.

Remember that game we all have played where one person whispers a sentence into the ear of another person, and that person whispers what he hears into the ears of another person until everyone has heard the sentence, and the last person speaks it aloud?

That was done with a phrase of music in this program. The host of the show sang a musical phrase in the ear of a choir boy; he ran and sang it in the ear of another, who passed it along until all the boys in the choir section had heard it. When the last one sang it to the host, the tune had changed, and the rhythm had changed, and it bore only a small resemblance to the original line.

Gradually, ways of notating music were devised, at first with only a line of round circles (they were called neumes in early Gregorian chant notation), which by their position more or less indicated the shape of the music, i.e. up a tone, down a tone; then eventually with four lines, and finally with a red line added which indicated the tonic or home key.

It was amazing to see this, and thoughts that came to my mind, not only about various musical modes which probably changed through the years from singer to singer, but about oral history, which some people today consider to be fact.

In my study of music, I was always taught that Roman musical modes evolved from the Greek modes. The Etrurians must have taken them from the Greeks and embellished and changed them in the way I've described. It's fascinating to think about in relation to music of today.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
September 8, 2003 - 07:20 am
Maybe that's why Durant called this a "Story" rather than a history.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
September 8, 2003 - 07:24 am
Robby, about your cousin's art class: Drawing and painting of nude models, male or female, is not considered porn or erotica; it's considered art. I find a thin line between what you call "soft porn" and erotica in art, including photographs, sometimes, but there is a difference.

In Western civilization there came a kind of shame about the human body and sexuality, which, for example, was never prevalent with Ancient Greeks. Was this due to Christianity, I wonder? If so, did it affect art in Rome and how?

Mal

ALF
September 8, 2003 - 08:33 am
Robby I just read your link to the NY TIMES Article. Unbelievable entrepreneurship - but hey- look at the horrors of the Roman Empire and look now at the thousands of visitors/ year that grace that country. Imagine a "Royal" tour of Babylon. Actually, that appeals to me. I wonder if that guy needs a hand?

CalKan
September 8, 2003 - 10:15 am
Robby count me in among the 20. I've been with you all through Vol. 2. I am receiving an awareness/ enjoying an appreciation of " the story" with all the links. Thank you all. I don't have the educated depth to have questions or opinions---that's been the gift from all of you.

Justin
September 8, 2003 - 12:24 pm
The pleasure that derives from curvilinear constructions, animal, vegetable,and mineral, may be erotic at times and the constructions themselves may be erotic but they are porn, soft or hard, only in the mind of the observer. If one sees porn in art one debases art and panders to ignorance.

Justin
September 8, 2003 - 12:37 pm
The Etruscan "capture" symbolism passed into Roman marriage rites has come down to American contemporary marriage customs. One of my daughters was a bride kidnapped by the groomsmen who had to be rescued by the groom. It was an exciting event and one that caused much alarm when we realized the bride was missing. They just carried her off.

The Artist Marcel Duchamp created a work called " The Bride and her Bachelors".This work is part of the same symbolism the Etruscans passed on to the Romans. The work can be seen in Philadelphia at the Art Institute. Don't look, Tooki. It's a little raunchy.

Shasta Sills
September 8, 2003 - 01:59 pm
I think anyone can tell the difference between art and pornography. I've painted and drawn nude figures many times, and nudity certainly doesn't offend me. But there are TV channels that I refuse to even turn on because they are so vulgar and trashy.

Justin, I don't remember Duchamp's "Bride" as being raunchy, but I've donated all my art books to a local school so I can't look it up. Maybe Mal or Tooki will find her on the internet for us.

Justin
September 8, 2003 - 03:41 pm
The rods and axes carried by a Consul's lictors to indicate his power of life and death over people, came back to the people of Italy during the reign of Mussolini. Italian stamps from that period contain a symbol of the rods and axes. At the end of World War ll, Italian stamps adopted a new format in which the rods and axes were discontinued. Italian stamps containing the rods and axes are prized today and some are quite valuable.

tooki
September 8, 2003 - 04:43 pm
Well, then, I'm glad pornography is, as beauty is, in the eye of the beholder. That solves a lot! Here, for Shasta, as described by Justin as raunchy, is Duchamps' "The Bride Striped Bare by Her Batchlors, Even."

Raunchy Duchamp

Just teasing. Duchamp is the century's funniest artist. I'll be back with an explanation, unless Justin or Mal provide one first.

robert b. iadeluca
September 8, 2003 - 05:38 pm
Calkan! I didn't know that you were quietly with us throughout Volume 2. As for needing "educated depth" to have questions, I've been asking questions since I was two years old and I wasn't renowned for having much depth at that time.

Please ask some questions. You realize that no answers may be forthcoming.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 8, 2003 - 07:09 pm
When reading about The Life of Greece, Durant properly prepared us by having us examine Crete before we moved into Greece itself. Now in this third volume, he had us examine The Etruscans before moving into the Roman Empire. And now comes that moment for which we have all been waiting.

THE REPUBLIC

508-30 B.C.

robert b. iadeluca
September 8, 2003 - 07:12 pm
The Struggle for Democracy

508-264 B.C.

tropicaltramp
September 8, 2003 - 07:27 pm
Fascinating; In regards to porn, soft or hard, much lies in the presentation of it. Each of us depicts it differently in accordance to pre conceived ideas and emotions, depending upon an infinate amount of temperimg or flavoring factors. These run the guantlet from asthetic to zoological. As it has been said many many times, beauty and soft porn lies in the eyes and mind of the beholder.

love the series being presented.

robert b. iadeluca
September 8, 2003 - 07:36 pm
Once more, if I may, I will remind you to constantly check the changes in the GREEN quotes in the Heading.

"Who were the patricians? Livy thought that Romulus had chosen a hundred clan heads of his tribe to help him establish Rome and be his council or senate. These men were later called patres -- 'fathers' -- and their descendants patricii -- 'derived from the fathers.' Modern theory likes to explain the patricians as Sabines who invaded Latium and thereafter ruled the Latin plebs, or populace, as a lower caste.

"We may believe that they were composed of clans that through economic or military superiority had acquired the best lands, and had transformed their agricultural leadership into political mastery. These victorious clans -- the Manlii, Valerii, Aemilii, Cornelii, Fabii, Horatii, Cladii, Julii, etc. -- continued for five centuries to give Rome generals, consuls, and laws.

"When the three original tribes united, their clan heads made a senate of some three hundred members. They were not such lords of comfort and luxury as their descendants. Often they put their own hands to the ax or the plow, lived vigorously on simple fare, and wore clothing spun in their homes.

"The plebs admired them even when it fought them, and applied to almost anything appertaining to them the term classicus, 'classical' -- i.e. of the highest rank or class."

Robby

Justin
September 8, 2003 - 09:11 pm
Jacque Louis David painted a tableau called the "Oath of the Horatii".The painting depicts a tale of conflict in Republican Rome between love and patriotism. The story is told by Livy. The leaders of the Roman and Alban armies, poised for battle, decide to resolve their conflict in triple combat. Three representatives are chosen from each side to decide the issue. The Horatii family sends three sons to fight for Rome. The Albans select three sons of the Curatious family. All would be well except, the three daughters of the Horatii are in love with the three brothers of the Curatii. The Horatii sons take an oath to kill the three Curatii.

Malryn (Mal)
September 8, 2003 - 09:46 pm
Oath of the Horatii by Jacques-Louis David

Malryn (Mal)
September 9, 2003 - 07:23 am
"hoc illud est praecipue in cognitione rerum salubre ac frugiferum, omnis te exempli documenta in inlustri posita monumento intueri; inde tibi tuaeque rei publicae quod imitere capias, inde foedum inceptu foedum exitu quod vites.

"This in particular is healthy and profitable in the knowledge of history, to behold specimens of every sort of example set forth in a conspicuous monument; thence you may choose which models to imitate for yourself and your res publica, and which, corrupt in their beginnings and corrupt in their outcomes, to avoid.
Livy, Preface to History of Rome

Justin
September 9, 2003 - 02:29 pm
Tooki; You did not retrieve the raunchy part of the Bride stripped bare. There is more.

Mal: I agree, I think Christianity, particularly Catholicism and Puritanism had much to do with the shame we feel about our bodies and the funny practices we engage in when alone, in pairs, and sometimes in threes. I don't think it had a serious effect upon the Romans because they preceded the Christian impact. They chopped Paul's head off. It is clear that the ideas that were to become Christianity were current in the Roman period but it was not until after Paul, and then much later with and after Augustine that the shame began in earnest.

In my eyes, we are much better able to cope with life now that we have bikinis.

robert b. iadeluca
September 9, 2003 - 02:52 pm
"Close to the patricians in wealth, but far below them in political power, were the equites, or businessmen. Some were rich enough to win their way into the Senate, and formed there the second part of its constituent patres (et) conscripti -- i.e. 'patricians and coinscribed men.' These two classes were called the 'orders,' and were termed honi, 'the good.'

Early civilizations thought of virtue in terms of rank, ability, and power. Virtus to the Roman meant manliness, the qualities that make a man (vir). Populus, 'people,' took in only these upper classes. Originally it was in this sense that those famous initials were used -- SPQR (Senatus Populusque Romanus) -- which were to mark so proudly a hundred thousand monuments. Gradually, as democracy fought its way, the word populus came to include the plebs.

"This was the main body of Roman citizens. Some were artisans or tradesmen, some were freedmen, many were peasants. Perhaps, in the beginning, they were the conquered natives of the city's hills. Some were attached as clientes, or dependents, to an upper-class patronus. In return for land and protection they helped him in peace, served under him in war, and voted in the assemblies as he told them."

Robby

georgehd
September 9, 2003 - 02:59 pm
Forgive me Robbie for maybe reading a paragraph or two ahead but I find the following statement by Durante particularly compelling and worthy of discussion, "Contentment is as rare among men as it is natural among animals, and no form of government has ever satisfied its subjects". This sentiment has certainly come up in Curious Minds and you call our attention to it in your quotes above.

Justin
September 9, 2003 - 09:36 pm
I think there is some truth in the finding that no form of Gov't fully satisfies it's people. Lincoln thought so too when he went on about fooling some of the people some of the time but not all of the people all of the time. A democratic republic finds its strength in an unsatisfied populace. Elections tend to be actively engaged in but not without some measure of complacency.

Malryn (Mal)
September 10, 2003 - 08:25 am
Volume 3 should arrive here by Saturday, if all goes well. I know we don't need the book to be in this discussion, but I always feel better if it's nearby. Volume 4 is going to come along with Volume 3, too!

Mal

tooki
September 10, 2003 - 09:04 am
According to the Durants, and my various reference books, a clan was a group of freeborn families, tracing themselves to a common ancestor, bearing his name. Like the Roman Claudii and the "Macs" in Scotland.

Tribes are composed of clans. In Attica there were four tribes and 360 clans. The Durants do not give the number of Roman clans, merely listing some and adding "etc." There were three tribes: Latin, Sabine and Etruscan. These tribes belonged to the Roman Nation.

For example, I am an unregistered member of the Saganine (a place) Band, or Clan, of the Saginaw Tribe (a river) of the Chippewa nation (Ojibwa). This is in Michigan.

If I were Roman, I would be Tookus I, a member of the Tookii clan, of the Etruscan tribe, of the Roman nation.

Anthropologists have many other rules and regs governing desent and relationships, but I think this is basically it. Isn't it interesting that most peoples of the world arranged themselves in these groupings from the beginning?

Is it possible that the Greeks and Romans differed in character so greatly because the Greeks gave their loyalty to their tribe, and the Romans gave theirs to their clan?

tooki
September 10, 2003 - 09:19 am
Justin: Are you perhaps thinking of Etant donees (translation help, please)? It is indeed so ranchy that the Philadelphia Museum forbids photographs of it, or they did. "The viewer must peer through a crack in a door to see a diorama of a nude young woman. This work culminates Duchamp's erotic obsessions, for which he was also famous."

So maybe "The Bride" lacks salacious contents in my eyes because I admire Marcel's mind so much?

"As the poet Mina Loy remembered, "Marcel was slick as a prestidigitator; he could insinuate his hand under a women's bodice and caress her with utter grace." (Quotes from "Dictionary of the Avant Gardes).

Justin
September 10, 2003 - 12:49 pm
Tooki; Not a diorama of a nude young woman but the interior of a nude young woman. That's raunchy.

Justin
September 10, 2003 - 01:01 pm
Tookus 1 ; Yours was an enlightening description of Tribes, Clans , and Bands. I had never before been aware of the distinction but it certainly makes sense. I suppose it is a staple of anthropology but I have not read much in that field. What did you mean by "an unregistered member"?

robert b. iadeluca
September 10, 2003 - 01:35 pm
Tooki:--Thanks for your descriptions of tribes, clans, nations, etc. It was most helpful to me.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 10, 2003 - 01:46 pm
"Lowest of all were the slaves. Under the kings they had been costly and few, and therefore had been treated with consideration as valuable members of the family. In the sixth century B.C., when Rome began her career of conquest, war captives were sold in rising number to the aristocarcy, the business classes, and even to plebians. The status of the slave sank.

"Legally he could be dealt with as any other piece of property. In theory, and according to the custom of the ancients, his life had been forfeited by defeat, and his enslavement was a merciful commutation of his death. Sometimes he managed his master's property, business, or funds. Sometimes he became a teacher, writer, actor, craftsman, laborer, tradesman, or arist, and paid his master part of his earnings.

"In this or other ways he might earn enough to buy his freedom and become a member of the plebs."

Isn't that what the plantation owners said -- that slaves were often considered part of the family, that their condition was better than death? And that ironically they were considered "property" although often intelligent enough to handle business matters or teach white children or take care of them?

And of course there was a very old precedent because, as Durant says, it was "the custom of the ancients."

Robby

Shasta Sills
September 10, 2003 - 02:24 pm
Forming clans and tribes is probably something we inherited from our animal ancestors--the herd instinct. Early on, animals realized there was strength in numbers. It was safer to belong to a group than to hunt alone.

Tooki, when I first studied Duchamp, it was the first time I realized that art could be more than a beautiful picture. Last night, PBS began a two-part series on modern artists. The things these young people are doing and calling art today are absolutely astonishing to an old fogie like me. And yet, it's not so different from Duchamp's experiments. One woman dipped her hair in black paint, and painted the floor with it. I thought that was going a bit too far.

icon
September 10, 2003 - 03:11 pm
People painting with their hair....and other body parts, was a repeated occurence at the 'happenings' I attended when an art student in London in the late 50's and sixties.

Robert , was the ability to buy out from enslavement only permitted for male slaves?

robert b. iadeluca
September 10, 2003 - 03:16 pm
Icon:--I'll defer your question about buying out from enslavement to someone more knowledgeable here.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 10, 2003 - 03:31 pm
"In this system of government the businessmen were piqued by their exclusion from the Senate, the richer plebians by their exclusion from the equites. The poorer plebeians resented their poverty, their political disabilities, and their liability to enslavement for debt. The law of the early Republic allowed a creditor to imprison a persistently defaulting debtor in a private dungeon, to sell him into slavery, even to kill him. Joint creditors might, said the law, cut up the corpse of the defaulting debtor and divide it among them -- a provision apparently never enforced.

"The plebs demanded that these laws should be repealed and the burden of accrued debt reduced -- that the lands won in war, and owned by the state should be distributed among the poor instead of being given, or sold at nominal prices, to the rich -- that plebeians should be eligible to the magistracies and the priesthoods, be permitted to intermarry with the 'orders,' and have a representative of their class among the highest officials of the government.

"The Senate sought to frustrate the agitation by fomenting wars, but it was shocked to find its calls to the colors ignored. In 494 B.C. large masses of the plebs 'seceded' to the Sacred Mount on the river Anio, three miles from the city, and declared that they would neither fight nor work for Rome until their demands had been met.

"The Senate used every diplomatic or religious device to lure the rebels back. Then, fearing that invasion from without might soon be added to revolt within, it agreed to a cancellation or reduction of debts, and the establishment of two tribunes and three aediles as the elected defenders of the plebs.

"The plebs returned, but only after taking a solemn oath to kill any man who should ever lay violent hands upon their representatives in the government."

Any one here remember the slogan in the 1960s which said: "What if there was a war and nobody came?"

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 10, 2003 - 04:03 pm
Click HERE to read more about the struggle of the Plebs against the Patricians.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 10, 2003 - 04:10 pm
The SLAVE ECONOMY IN ANCIENT ROME as seen by Karl Marx.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 10, 2003 - 04:23 pm
The LIFE OF A PATRICIAN is illustrated here.

Click onto the various villas.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
September 10, 2003 - 06:17 pm
My books came! Lordy, lordy, Volume 4, The Age of Faith is 1086 pages long, and I haven't even opened the cover of Volume 3!

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
September 10, 2003 - 06:20 pm
Mal:--Please - please? - put away Volume Four and don't look at it or even refer to it until we end "Caesar and Christ."

Robby

Justin
September 10, 2003 - 06:36 pm
Mal; It's not the number of pages that makes book heavy. It is the content. Look at it this way. There are 1086 pages of information we can digest and discuss, together.

robert b. iadeluca
September 10, 2003 - 06:42 pm
There you go!! Isn't that a wonderful future to look forward to?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 10, 2003 - 06:48 pm
Durant continues:--

"This was the opening battle in a class war that ended only with the Republic that it destroyed. In 486 the consul Spurius Cassius proposed an allotment of captured lands among the poor. The patricians accused him of currying popular favor with a view to making himself king, and had him killed.

"This was probably not the first in a long line of agrarian proposals and Senatorial assassinations, culminating in the Gracchi and Caesar. In 439 Spurius Maelus, who during a famine had distributed wheat to the poor at a low price or free, was slain in his home by an emissary of the Senate, again on the charge of plotting to be king.

"In 384 Marcus Manlius, who had heroically defended Rome against the Gauls, was put to death on the same charge after he had spent his fortune relieving insolvent debtors."

Your reactions, please?

Robby

tooki
September 10, 2003 - 07:32 pm
Justin asked what "unregistered" means. To partake of the bounty provided to Native Americans by the United States government, after they killed all the buffalo, all Native Americans needed to register and get a card identifying themselves as a member of a band or tribe. Today Native Americans prefer to call this "enrollment", and the tribe, in addition to the government rolls, keeps the rolls.

Back then, many Native Americans refused to register, as the years went by many were assimilated, and birth records were lost or not kept. It really wasn't a big deal. It is now because being a "registered" or "enrolled" member of the tribe entitles one to proceeds of the Casinos on Indian Reservations.

This has bearing on ancient Rome. Did the slaves have registration credentials, or did patricians have theirs? How could you tell one from the other? Suppose a slave bought his freedom. Did he get a "freeman card?"

Proof of identity is a hornet's nest. Watch out, White Eye, here comes the "Personal Identity Card," furnished by your very own considerate United States Government.

moxiect
September 10, 2003 - 08:04 pm
I can think of two id cards we have - Motor Vehicle/Social Security! Could this be consider as an appropriate "freeman card", as we all have them, don't we.

3kings
September 10, 2003 - 08:32 pm
In 439 Spurius Maelus, who during a famine had distributed wheat to the poor at a low price or free, was slain in his home by an emissary of the Senate, again on the charge of plotting to be king.

I compare the above practice with that of modern Political Parties, who compete for electoral power by buying the votes of the people, and always of course, with the offer to reduce peoples' taxes.

At least in Spurius' case, he apparently used his own money, so it is shocking that he lost his life for it.

It is incidents such as these that point the differences between Greece and Rome.== Trevor

Justin
September 11, 2003 - 12:03 am
Registered vrs. unregistered tribal membership will be a hornet's nest if casino money is at stake. Intermarriage with the White eyes must complicate the problem of identity.

robert b. iadeluca
September 11, 2003 - 02:55 am
Trevor from New Zealand!! So good to see you back in The Story of Civilization. In the past we have had so many wonderful postings from you and hope to have even more.

There are now 23 members of "Caesar and Christ," some active participants and some "lurkers." Lurkers are encouraged to now and then just say "hi" and make their presence known.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 11, 2003 - 03:41 am
This TIMELY ARTICLE by a historian helps to remind us that when we are reading about events that happened thousands of years ago, we might very well be reading about current events.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 11, 2003 - 03:52 am
"The next step in the climb of the plebs was a demand for definite, written, and secular laws. Heretofore the patricians had kept their records secret, and had used their monopoly, and the ritual requirements of the law, as weapons against social change. After a long resistance to the new demands, the Senate (454) sent a commission of three patricians to Greece to study and report on the legislation of Solon and other lawmakers.

"When they returned, the Assembly (451) chose ten men -- decemviri -- to formulate a new code, and gave them supreme governmental power in Rome for two years. This commission, under the presidency of a resolute reactionary, Appius Claudius, transformed the old customary law of Rome into the famous Twelve Tables, submitted them to the Assembly (which passed them with some changes), and displayed them in the Forum for all who would -- and could - to read. This seemingly trivial event was epochal in Roman history and in the history of mankind.

"It was the first written form of that legal structure which was to be Rome's most signal achievement and her greatest contribution to civilization."

As Durant told us, the influence of Greece continued.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 11, 2003 - 04:37 am
Here are the TWELVE TABLES. Your appraisal invited.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
September 11, 2003 - 06:17 am
Good morning, everyone. It's a beautiful day here. I guess we're all haunted by memories of two years ago today. I couldn't rest until I found out if my New York son and his family were all right. As it turned out, my son was on a train to visit his sister here in NC, who was to have serious surgery September 12th. Chris heard the news; got off the train at Washington and couldn't get out of the city. It took him over two days to get back to Staten Island where he lives. As it also turned out, his sister's illness saved his life, since he had been scheduled for a meeting at the World Trade Center the morning of September 11, 2001.

Back to Rome. Robby, you don't know me. I would never open Volume 4 without first reading Volume 3. It seems to me that "Our Oriental Heritage" was almost as long as Volume 4, wasn't it? That book was too heavy to hold, too.

Three things stood out when I scanned the tables on the page you linked, Robby. The first is: "A dreadfully deformed child shall be quickly killed." I've thought about things like this, and, of course, have no way of knowing what they meant by "dreadfully deformed". Arms? Legs? Head? Back? Brain?

It is difficult, and sometimes extremely so, to live life with a severe birth deformity, or deformities and disabilities that can come through very serious illness and accidents. When I think these things I immediately think about Steven Hawking and others who have made their mark, perhaps not as astoundingly as Hawking has, under very great odds. However, it takes an enormous amount of money and assistance for people like him and Christopher Reeve, for example, to stay alive.

Ordinary people who have children that are born with severe deformities and mental disabilities simply do not have the means to do this. Is it more merciful for the child and his or her parents to allow such children to die, or even hasten their death? I have wondered about this, and have had enough experience that I am not altogether dismayed at the practicality of the idea, hard as it sounds.



"Females should remain in guardianship even when they have attained their majority." Of course, they should! Females are lesser; don't have any sense, and are ruled by emotionality, right? I'm glad to see that the Romans are following the traditions and superstitions that came before them. Balderdash!

8 a under Torts or delict: "A person who has enchanted crops away." Also "A person who shall have enchanted by singing an evil spell." How many laws do we have that are based on superstition, myth and bias? Or is this religion? Or is it just plain fear?

Mal

HubertPaul
September 11, 2003 - 10:51 am
"HI" :>)

Fran Olivier
September 11, 2003 - 11:05 am
I am using my sister's computer and can't do anything but read for now but lurking with deep interest.

Eloïse

georgehd
September 11, 2003 - 12:59 pm
Robby I am glad you found the 12 Tables as they make fascinating reading. While we may trace our laws to ancient Rome, the Israelites, of course, had the Ten Commandments, followed by many many laws as outlined in the Old Testament. I see our current laws as a mixture of the two. It is interesting to think about the two sources of law - the one religious and the other secular. I do not know to what degree Roman law is based on preexisting religious beliefs.

One other aside. I am taking a course on DVD on opera appreciation. Fifteen or twenty minutes were devoted to the origin of sung stories by the ancient Greeks. And then during the Reformation, musicians again turned to Pythagorous (ancient Greek) to come up with harmonies based on his mathematics. Renaissance composers wanted their music to have the same impact on their listeners as that which the Greeks attributed to their music. The church had essentially stopped the development of musical expression for 1400 years.

Shasta Sills
September 11, 2003 - 01:24 pm
These Twelve Tables are considered Rome's most significant contribution to civilization? I find this puzzling. Some of these laws sound awfully harsh, and others pretty silly.

Malryn (Mal)
September 11, 2003 - 03:40 pm
I read today in Gandhi's The Story of My Experiments With Truth that when he was studying to pass the bar in England he read Roman law in Latin. Wonder if the appearance and meaning of the laws change in translation like so many other things?

George, that must be a fascinating course you're taking. I'd enjoy something like that.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
September 11, 2003 - 03:55 pm
Shasta:--My understanding is that what was important was that the laws were created by the people, not necessarily what the laws were. Even in our day, some of the laws are downright ridiculous.

Robby

Justin
September 11, 2003 - 03:58 pm
George; The Ten commandments contributed very little to American Jurisprudence. The only commandments applicable; Don't kill, don't steal, and do not bear false witness, came from lawgivers who preceded Moses. The laws of Leviticus and Deuteronomy are more cultural edicts on diet etc. and therefore not relevant. We owe more to Hammurabi and the secular Romans than we do to Moses.

robert b. iadeluca
September 11, 2003 - 04:52 pm
"When the second year of the commission's tenure ended, it refused to restore the government to the consuls and tribunes, and continued to exercise supreme -- and ever more irresponsible -- authority. Appius Claudius, says a story suspiciously like Lucretia's, was stirred with a passion for the beautiful plebeian Virginia and, to secure her for his pleasure, had her declared a slave.

"Her father, Lucius Virginius, protested. When Claudius refused to hear him, he slew his daughter, rushed out to his legion, and asked its aid in overthrowing the new despot. The enraged plebs once more 'seceded' to the Sacred Mount, 'imitating,' says Livy, 'the modereation of their fathers by abstaining from all injury.' Learning that the army was supporting the plebs, the patricians gathered in the senate house, deposed the Decemvirs -- banished Claudius -- restored the consulate -- enlarged the tribunate -- recognized the inviolability of the people's tribunes -- and confirmed to the plebs the right of appealing to the Assembly of the Centuries from the decision of any magistrate.

"Four years later (445) the tribune Caius Canuleius moved that the plebs should have the right of intermarriage with patricians, and that plebeians should be eligible to the consulate. The Senate, again faced by threats of war from vengeful neighbors, yielded the first point, and averted the second by agreeing that thereafter six of the tribunes chosen by the Centurial Assembly should have the authority of consuls.

"The plebs responded handsomely by choosing all these tribuni militum consulari potestate from the patrician class."

As I read this, I keep wondering how many legislative decisions are made almost solely through emotion -- love, hate, envy, frustration, hurt, and on and on.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 11, 2003 - 05:02 pm
"I’ve been rich and I’ve been poor. Believe me, honey, rich is better."

- - - Sophie Tucker

Justin
September 11, 2003 - 06:17 pm
History repeats: In 396 BCE the Roman soldiers, defenders of Rome, return to their farms to find them burdened by debt and unpaid interest. The creditors want their money. The soldiers are imprisoned and sold into slavery. A grateful nation repays it's warrior heros. In 2003, the police and firemen who fought the 9-11 collapse are denied overtime pay by their great leader who thanks them with words while denying them adequate pay.

Justin
September 11, 2003 - 06:41 pm
History Repeats: The Romans in 450 BCE recognized that in times of national crisis their liberties and privileges, and all the checks and balances that they had created for their own protection, might impede the rapid and united action needed to save the State.

The Americans in 2002 adopt the Patriot Act, restricting their liberties and rights to protect the state.

Ben Franklin once said, " They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

moxiect
September 11, 2003 - 07:27 pm
Seems as though HISTORY always repeats itself one way or another doesn't it.

tooki
September 11, 2003 - 09:09 pm
It appears that Laws appear when a flashpoint of discontent is reached by an underclass. Folks won't tolerate one bit more of aristocratic snot nosedness. "The danger is hubris, which, as if by devine law, invites nemeis." Here is a site listing highlights and brief descriptions of laws and codes that framed the world. The range is from Urukagina's Code of 2350 BC to 1948, The General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade (GAIT). Athen's Salon's Laws was 550BC, and the Ten Commandments was 1300 BC.

robert b. iadeluca
September 12, 2003 - 04:21 am
Tooki:--That is an absolutely marvelous link taking us to a list of the various important legal documents throughout history. I printed it and I'm sure will refer to it either mentally or in print at various times. Thank you!

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 12, 2003 - 04:28 am
"Ben Franklin once said, " They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

The problem, as I see it, is knowing whether that safety is only temporary or whether we might be losing it permanently. WWII might be an example. In addition, what is meant by "essential" liberty?

Robby

georgehd
September 12, 2003 - 04:34 am
How does our policy regarding suspected terrorists held in Cuba jibe with the Franklin quote?

robert b. iadeluca
September 12, 2003 - 04:46 am
Durant continues:--

"For a decade the patricians, says Dio Cassius, 'stirred up war after war, that the people might be too occupied to agitate about the land.' At last the Senate accepted the 'Licinian laws' and Camillus, leader of the conservatives, celebrated the reconciliation of the classes by building a stately Temple of Concord in the Forum.

"It was a major step in the growth of Rome's limited democracy.

"In 356 a plebeian was made dictator for a year. In 351 the censorhip, in 337 the praetorship, and in 300 the priesthoods were opened to the plebs. Finally (287) the Senate agreed that the decisions of the Tribal Assembly should also have the force of law, even when contrary to the resolutions of the Senate. Since in this assembly the patricians could easily be outvoted by the plebs, this les Hortensia was the capstone and triumph of Roman democracy.

"Nevertheless, the power of the Senate soon recovered after these defeats. The demand for land was quieted by sending Romans as colonists to conquered soil. The cost of winning and holding office -- which was unpaid -- automatically disqualified the poor.

"The richer plebeians, hving secured political equality and opportunity, now co-operated with the patricians in checking radical legislation. The poorer plebeians, shorn of financial means, ceased for two centuries to play a significant role in the affairs of Rome. Businessmen fell in with patrician policy because it gave them contracts for public works, openings for colonial and provincial exploitation, and commissions to collect taxes for the state.

"The Assembly of the Centuries, whose method of voting gave the aristocracy full control, continued to choose the magistrates, and therefore the Senate. The tribunes, dependent upon the support of rich plebeians, used their office as a conservative force.

"Every consul, even if chosen by the plebe, became by contagion a zealous conservative when, at the close of his year of office, he was received into the Senate for life. The Senate took the initiative in legislation, and custom sanctioned its authority far beyond the letter of the law.

"As foreign affairs became more important, the Senate's firm administration of them raised its prestige and power. When, in 264, Rome entered upon a century of war with Carthage for the mastery of the Mediterranean, it was the Senate that led the nation through every trial to victory.

"An imperiled and desperate people yielded without protest to its leadership and domination."

I found it impossible to read this section without thinking of current events. Sentence after sentence after sentence, there seemed to be a relevancy.

Robby

Shasta Sills
September 12, 2003 - 09:21 am
I thought Tooki's timetable of legal history would be boring, but it's not. It's fascinating. Did you know that Draco died of smother love? And the Chinese used fingerprints to identify criminals in 500 AD? And the Japanese laws were designed to prevent disputes rather than resolve them. The comments on the Twelve Tables made me understand their value better. As I read this list of law-making, I thought, "This is the human race trying to civilize itself over a long period of time." Not every effort was perfect, but they were always trying. Humans are such a flawed species, but we keep on trying. And that's why God continues to put up with us.

Malryn (Mal)
September 12, 2003 - 10:29 am
There are some of us who think we humans are reponsible for any of our progress on this road to civilization and all of the mistakes we make by not heeding history and what has come before in centuries past. Unlike the Ancient Greeks and others of our ancestral predecessors, there are some of us who think our God (if we believe in one) is a spirit, an essence, that does not have human characteristics or human form. It is we humans who must "put up" with us. Change can only come when we make the decision that there are some things which have repeatedly come down through history that we will no longer tolerate.

Mal

tooki
September 12, 2003 - 12:05 pm
It is helpful in discussing or reading about legal matters to understand the difference between a law, a statute, and a code. Permit me please, and thank you; move on if this is too boring.

Notice the Durants' description of the Plebs demands. Sort of quoted, "The plebs demanded definite, written laws. The Patrician priests had been the recorders of the statutes. The Assembly chose ten men to formulate a new code."

Laws and statutes are passed, enacted or just plain evolve, as they are needed in the hassle of living. They exist higgily-piggily, to be enforced by whoever the current enforcers are. In the Romans case it was the Patrician priests.

Now a code is when all the laws and statutes are assembled by the SUBJECT, written down, and enforced according to what the Code says. Each section of the code is given a name.

Thus, in the Twelve Tables, Table 1 is titled Rules for a going to trial. Table 2 is the trial. Table 3 is Debt. 4 is rights of fathers. EACH TABLE COVERS A DIFFERENT SUBJECT. You can understand how Codes simplify living. Laws become considerably less confusing.

I'll bet every guy in this discussion group who was in service can remember the Code Number and name of the one covering US Military Justice.

Justin
September 12, 2003 - 04:06 pm
Rocks and Shoals, Tooki.

Fifi le Beau
September 12, 2003 - 04:06 pm
Robby, I have this day read up to the last post. I have the book and I am reading along with all of you. The posts have all been so good that I have nothing to say at the moment.

......

Justin
September 12, 2003 - 04:09 pm
Georhehd; How does our policy regarding those in Cuba jibe with the Franklin' quote?

Justin
September 12, 2003 - 04:39 pm
I agree with you Robby. It is difficult to read about the Roman leadership struggle without relating it to our own times. For example, the Roman leadership stirred up war after war that the people might be too occupied to agitate about the land (grab). The current American leadership stirs up war after war to keep the citizens diverted from other objectives. expecially, women's rights, gay rights, ordinary citizen rights, enrichment of financial backers, destruction of the environment etc.

Justin
September 12, 2003 - 06:22 pm
Here's another one, Robby. "The cost of winning and holding office automatically disqualified the poor." The current President, born with the proverbial silver spoon in his mouth, steeped in nepotism, comes to the office of president burdened by wealthy friends to whom he owes a debt of gratitude. The challengers in the coming election, while not as heavilly burdened by wealthy friends, come to the contest well vested in wealth. In California, one of the president's wealthy friends, buys a recall election and a wealthy clown puts aside the grease paint to seek favor with the voters. In America, wisdom dictates, don't enter the lists unless you can pay your way.

Justin
September 12, 2003 - 06:38 pm
Once again. 'Businessmen fell in with Patrician policy because it gave them contracts for Public works and openings for colonial and provincial exploitation." In the Us today, energy suppliers,and oilmen, use their influence with the administration to raise prices and to bilk the public with out fear of reprimand. Builders use the same influence to gain contracts to enable them to make money in our newly conquered territory.

georgehd
September 13, 2003 - 06:47 am
Justin, the holding of so called terrorists in Cuba without benefit of trial or lawyers or contact with the outside world, seems to go against basic liberties guaranteed by the Constitution. These men may very well be terrorists - I do not know. But I think that when the US adopts the policies of a dictatorial regime, we have to question those policies. I do not know how many of these people are foreign nationals and therefore possibly not protected by the US constitution. The point is - we do not know. Are they prisoners of war and if so, they should be declared to be such. Prisoners of war also have rights under the Geneva Conventions I believe. I admit to be treading on thin ice here as I am certainly not an expert in such law.

It seems to me that we are giving up some essential freedoms by enacting such a policy and in that sense I think this action ties in with Franklin's warning.

This post may be better placed in the discussion Curious Minds. I just posted a very interesting article by Michael Ignatieff, Why Are We in Iraq, which does, it seems to me, tie in with what we are reading in Durant.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/07/magazine/07INTERVENTION.html

robert b. iadeluca
September 13, 2003 - 06:59 am
Durant now brings us to a section entitled

THE CONSTITUTION OF THE REPUBLIC

Under that are four parts entitled

1- The Lawmakers
2 - The Magistrates
3 - The Beginnings of Roman Law and
4 - The Army of the Republic.

Keep your eye peeled on the GREEN quotes as we move along.

robert b. iadeluca
September 13, 2003 - 07:15 am
"Let us try to picture to ourselves this complex state, so formed after five centuries of development. Polybius considered it an almost literal realization of Aristotle's ideal constitution. It provided the framework, sometimes the battle ground, of Roman history.

"Who, among this people, were the citizens? In practice, the citizens were all males above fifteen years of age who were neither slaves nor aliens, and all aliens who had received a grant of Roman citizenship.

Never before or since has citizenship been so jealously guarded or so highly prized. It meant membership in the relatively small group that was soon to rule the whole Mediterranean area. It brought immunity from legal torture or duress, and the right of appeal from any official in the Empire to the Assembly -- or later, the emperor -- at Rome.

Obligations went with these privileges. The citizen, unless quite poor, was liable to military service at call from his sixteenth to his sixtieth year. He could not hold political office until he had served ten years in the army. His political rights were so bound up with his military duties that his most important voting was done as a member of his regiment, or "century."

"In the days of the kings he had voted also in the comitia curiata; i.e. he and other heads of families had come together (cum-ire) in a gathering of the thirty curiae, or wards, into which the three tribes had been divided. To the end of the Republic it was this Curial Assembly that conferred upon the elected magistrates the imperium, or authority to govern.

"After the fall of the monarchy the Curial Assembly rapidly lost its other powers to the comitia centuriata -- the soldiers assembled in 'centuries' originally of one hudnred men.

"It was this Centurial Assembly that chose the magistrates -- passed or rejected the measures proposed to it by officials or the Senate -- heard appeals from the judgments of magistrates -- tried all cases of capital crime charged to Roman citizens -- and decided upon war or peace. It was the broad base of both the Roman army and the Roman government.

"Nevertheless, its powers were narrowly constrained. It could convene only at the call of a consul or a tribune. It could vote only upon such measures as were presented to it by the magistrates or the Senate. It could not discuss or amend these proposals. It could only vote Yes or No."

Lots here to discuss.

Robby

Shasta Sills
September 13, 2003 - 09:13 am
I'm trying to understand why the Greek government was considered a democracy, and the Roman government was not.

HubertPaul
September 13, 2003 - 10:07 am
Never before or since has citizenship been so jealously guarded or so highly prized............Obligations went with these privileges. The citizen, unless quite poor, was liable to military service at call from his sixteenth to his sixtieth year. He could not hold political office...............

Different in our times. You have a better chance to hold public office, being a draft-dodger... and citizenship......

Justin
September 13, 2003 - 12:37 pm
Very good, Bert. And a weekend warrior on obsolete planes for the same purpose.

Justin
September 13, 2003 - 01:11 pm
George; So, that's what you meant by "interesting". Your response may be appropriate in "Curious Minds" but it is equally valid here in Civilization. Now we have something to work with. I think your concern about the Cuba held prisoners is worthy of expression.

These prisoners taken in Afghanistan are the Army's concern. But they are more than POW's. If they were POW's, we would have to release them when the war is over. I would rather call them suspected war criminals. We had the same problem with Hitler's leading people. Their status was not clear until they were charged many months after capture. In the case of the prisoners in Cuba, they have information about the Taliban and perhaps, al Queda, and Bin Laden that will be useful in the capture of these enemies. Only one of these guys was an American citizen. He should have been shot as a traitor when found guilty under the code of military justice. The rest of these people are not only foreign nationals but are also enemies who, if they escape, are expected to rejoin the enemy in its guerrilla effort.

robert b. iadeluca
September 13, 2003 - 05:19 pm
As we compare actions in the Roman Empire with actions in today's world, it will be exceedingly difficult not to voice personal political opinions. I merely ask that we be careful that we choose our words carefully.

Any comments about the privileges and responsibilities of Roman citizens as described in Post 249?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 13, 2003 - 06:19 pm
Here is the PROCEDURE for becoming an American citizen.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 13, 2003 - 06:36 pm
Take THIS EXAM to see if you could meet requirements to become an American citizen.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 13, 2003 - 06:38 pm
Here is the PROCEDURE for becoming an American citizen.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 13, 2003 - 06:44 pm
Here are the NATURALIZATION REQUIREMENTS.

Robby

Justin
September 13, 2003 - 11:05 pm
#256; Exam for citizenship. No wonder, people either don't vote or they vote for disneyland characters. The citizenship test is geared to 1st graders and much of it is irrelevant. Questions such as "What holiday is on the fourth of July?" followed by, "When in the year is Independence day celebrated?" is too much for me. How about "Who helped the Pilgrims? (What do they have to do with US citizenship?) I am surprised we do not ask "Where do the Yankees play? Try this one on for size, What is the form number for the immigration application? That's an actual question.

robert b. iadeluca
September 14, 2003 - 04:10 am
Justin:--Please give us two or three questions of your own making that you believe would be more appropriate for a Naturalization Exam.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 14, 2003 - 04:29 am
"The conservative character of the Centurial Assembly's decisions was guaranteed by the class arrangement of its members. At the top were eighteen centuries of patricians and businessmen (equites).

"Then came the 'first class' men -- men owning 100,000 asses' worth of property. These had eighty centuries, or 8000 men, in the Assembly.

"The second class embraced citizens owning between 75,000 and 100,000 asses.

"The third, between 50,000 and 75,000 asses.

"The fourth, between 25,000 and 50,000 asses. Each of these classes had twenty centuries.

"The fifth class included citizens owning between 11,000 and 25,000 asses, and had thirty centuries.

"All citizens possessing under 11,000 asses were formed into one century.

"Each century cast one vote, determined by a majority of its members. A small majority in one century could cancel a large majority in another, and give the victory to a numerical minority. Since each century voted in the order of its financial rank, and its vote was announced as soon as taken, the agreement of the first two groups gave at once ninety-eight votes, a majority of the whole, so that the lower classes seldom voted at all.

"Voting was direct. Citizens who could not come to Rome for the meeting had no representation in the Assembly. All this was no mere device to disfranchise the peasants and the plebs. The classification of centuries had been mde by the census to distingish men for taxation as well as for war. The Romans thought it just that the right to vote should be proportioned to taxes paid and military duties required. Citizens with less than 11,000 asses of property had altogether only one centurial vote. Correspondingly they paid a negligible tax and were in normal times exempt from military service. Of the proletariat, until Marius' day, nothing was asked except prolific parentage.

"Despite some later changes, the Centurial Assembly remained a frankly conservative and aristocratic institution."

Money talks. Is that bad?

Robby

georgehd
September 14, 2003 - 04:53 am
Justin, while not defending the choice of questions, there is probably a reason for repeated questions in different forms. If English is not the person's native language and he/she has just learned English, stating the questions in different forms is a good way to see if the testee has a real understanding of the language. The same with looking for the form number. While all of us probably think this to be a ridiculous question, it does require an understanding of forms, the numbering system used by the government and the location of the number.

I will get back to this later as we have a fascinating thing happening here in Cayman right now that is causing all kinds of trouble. People are being granted status by the government executive committee; as many as 2000 to a rumored 5000 people may get status in a country of only 45,000. The Cayman born population is up in arms and their fears are being fanned by the opposition party leader. Status, by the way does not give one the right to vote. You must also be naturalized, which as far as I know does not require a test. The whole situation is complicated by the fact that we are a dependent territory of Great Britain and the British government is requiring that more status permits be granted (people who have lived here for over tens years often do not have status now). The Cayman Constitution is being revised and people are not exactly sure what the law really says; even lawyers are confused by the mess. On Friday over 500 Jamaican Nationals overwhelmed the police headquarters seeking police clearance forms as there was a rumor that they could get status if they applied before the weekend.

In the last election here, I think that between 5000 and 8000 people voted. The candidate receiving the most votes got fewer than 2500 and he now runs the government.

The winning candidate is backed by our only billionaire resident who recently got status, surprise, surprise. The billionaire is the last US citizen to renounce their US citizenship in order to move all of his money off shore and thus escape all US taxes. He was the last person to be able to do this as the law was changed because of his action. Unfortunatly he was allowed into Cayman after being turned away from a couple of other countries. One can only guess as to why he was given permission to settle here. Belive me - money talks much more loudly than the voters.

Percivel
September 14, 2003 - 05:15 am
>Money talks. Is that bad?<<


It depends on how that money is obtained and used. Representing the fruits of one's labor is one thing. Representing greed, theft and guile is quite another.

robert b. iadeluca
September 14, 2003 - 05:22 am
Here is a TIMELY ARTICLE by the Associated Press regarding what is required to be an American citizen.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 14, 2003 - 05:34 am
Durant continues:--

"Doubtless as an offset to this, the plebs had from the beginning of the Republic held its own assemblies, the concilia plebis. Out of these councils, probably, came the comitia populi tributa which we find exercising legislative power as early as 357 B.C. In this Tribal Assembly of the People, the voters were arranged according to tribe and residence, on the basis of the Servian census. Each tribe had one vote, and the rich counted for no more than the poor.

"After the recognition of its legislative authority by the Senate in 287, the power of the Tribal Assembly grew until by 200 it had become the chief source of private law in Rome. It chose the tribunes (i.e. tribal representatives) of the people (tribuni plebis) as distinct from the tribuni militares elected by the centuries.

"Here, too, however, there was no discussion by the people. A magistrate proposed a law and defended it. Another magistrate might speak against it. The Assembly listened, and voted Yes or No. Though by its constitution it was more progressive than the Centurial Assembly, it was far from radical. Thirty-one of its thirty-five tribes were rural, and their members, mostly owners of land, were cautious men.

"The urban proletariat, confined to four tribes, was politically powerless before Marius, and after Caesar."

Power to the people? Maybe?

Robby

tooki
September 14, 2003 - 08:18 am
Attempts to compare Roman Citizens, their rights and responsibilities and American citizens is doomed to failure because, as far as I can tell by the Durants' discussion, we are only talking about men. Women were not "Citizens," thus had no rights or responsibilities.

Justin: Maybe the citizenship exam is simple minded so women can pass it?

George: Does "people" include women?

You boys should pay more attention to your language. I, for my part, will try and be more patient.

robert b. iadeluca
September 14, 2003 - 08:26 am
Tooki:--You "boys?"

tooki
September 14, 2003 - 08:32 am
tries to be pleasant. Does anyone think there is a connection between Comitia Populi Tributa, which the Durants translate as "The Tribal Assembly of the People," and Posse Commitus, those folks who take matters into their own hands?

"boys" Just trying to be sorta not nice. Me and Mae West.

georgehd
September 14, 2003 - 08:53 am
Guys and dolls, yes women are considered human beings here in Cayman with all the rights and priviledges of men. But for the most part, men play the dominant role in politics, business, churches, etc. At the moment we do not have any female ministers in government. Ministers run the show and are like the US cabinet. Cayman, must by law, abide by the Human Rights laws of Great Britain. And in addition the UN has a committe to oversee human rights in countries like Cayman, that are dependent territories.

robert b. iadeluca
September 14, 2003 - 09:05 am
An occasional "hi" from a lurker is always welcome.

Robby

HubertPaul
September 14, 2003 - 09:45 am
"hi"

Money talks. Is that bad?

When I lived in Western Australia, I became familiar with their voting arrangements for a municipal election. It was considered proper, if you owned property or a business you should have a bigger voice in the affairs of the community. Therefore you were entitled to more than one vote. Is this a bad idea?

moxiect
September 14, 2003 - 10:16 am


If money talks then why are those who are more affluent than others help the down trodden, so to speak! Men who possess the most often forget how they got affluency and become more avarice because they realize that money brings power and power can be corrupted by avarice.

robert b. iadeluca
September 14, 2003 - 10:18 am
Is there a difference between people from "old money" and those who are "new money" in their attitude toward philanthropy?

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
September 14, 2003 - 11:58 am
It's money that runs the world IMO. When you see rich nations pouring money into the coffers of poor nations, there is usually a condition attached to it. But just to help? money alone does not do the trick. Tolerence and acceptance of differences, leave alone nations who have immense natural resources even if they don't want to sell it. We don't see terrorists in oil poor countries or they are imported from oil rich countries.

Old money is generous with an infinitsmal portion of their wealth. New money needs to advertize their generosity.

Eloïse

robert b. iadeluca
September 14, 2003 - 12:08 pm
"The Senate's membership was for life, but the Senate or a censor could dismiss any member detected in crime or serious moral offense.

"By a pleasant custom the members brought their sons with them to attend in silence, and to learn statesmanship and chicanery at first hand.

"Theoretically the Senate might dicuss and decide only such issues as were presented to it by a magistrate, and its decisions were merely advice (senatus consulta), without the force of law. Actually its prestige was so great that the matistrates nearly always accepted its recommendations.

"The magistrates held power for a year only, while the senators were chosen for life.

"The conduct of foreign relations -- the making of alliances and treaties -- the waging of war -- the government of the colonies and provinces -- the management and distribution of the public lands -- the control of the treasure and its disbusements ----all these were exclusive functions of the Senate and gave it immense power.

"It was legislature, executive, and judiciary in one."

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
September 14, 2003 - 02:57 pm
Below is a link to a page of links to images of Roman artifacts found at the Karanis excavation.

Karanis excavation

Malryn (Mal)
September 14, 2003 - 03:05 pm
Below is a link to a fascinating set of web pages about Karanis and the Karanis excavation. If you look at all of them you'll receive an idea of what life was for Romans in Karanis.

Karanis: An Egyptian Town in Roman Times

Justin
September 14, 2003 - 03:12 pm
Tooki; Don't sell the women short who take the Naturalization exam. Women generally, do better than men on exams of all kinds.

George: The purpose of the Naturalization exam is not to ensure that candidates understand English. The purpose of the exam should be to ensure that candidates understand their rights and obligations as citizens. Knowing the names of Holidays or form numbers is not going to do it. The current exam is so full of trivia it could be used on The Wheel of Fortune. It is not knowing the rights and obligations of citizens that permits money to play a major role in government. The ballot is the only weapon we have against corruption. If it is used, the rascals can be driven out of office. It is the one source of power that can overcome money. If that principle is not understood by new citizens we are doomed to be abused forever because the current electorate doesn't understand the power of the ballot.

robert b. iadeluca
September 14, 2003 - 04:05 pm
Any further comments about what is going on in Ancient Rome?

Robby

Shasta Sills
September 14, 2003 - 04:45 pm
Justin could probably tell us all kinds of things about "ancient Rome" if we could get him off of "USA today."

Malryn (Mal)
September 15, 2003 - 05:20 am
We say the Roman aristocracy were people who owned land. Is that right? My question is: Where did they get that land originally? From the way it was disbursed after wars were fought? By using force to grab it?

Having known and been relatively close to people whose families had possessed wealth for centuries, I'd say the only difference between them and people with new money as philanthropists is the choice of philanthropies. Bill Gates's family did not have the social position of some old Boston families I know, but they were fairly well-to-do. The media make it a point of advertising Gates's money and what he does with it. From what I read, he is very generous as a philanthropist. So, indeed, are people with old money, who raise their children to be the same.

Mal

tooki
September 15, 2003 - 05:28 am
Until Justin furnishes us with some titles of Renaissance paintings of the fabulous Roman Senators, these photos of the Forum will have to do.

Ruins

I want to see paintings of these heavy duty men in their Togas.

tooki
September 15, 2003 - 05:37 am
More pictures!

Some Senators

robert b. iadeluca
September 15, 2003 - 05:47 am
Those are magnificent links, Tooki. I spent time looking at each of the photos (give them time to download). When looking at the Curia (Senate building), I let my imagination take over and see the Senators as they congregated in that stupendous building. The marble floor is gorgeous!

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 15, 2003 - 05:56 am
"The Senate defended corrupt officials, waged war ruthlessly, exploited conquered provinces greedily, and suppressed the aspirations of the people for a larger share in the prosperity of Rome. But never elsewhere, except from Trajan to Aurelius, have so much energy, wisdom, and skill been applied to statesmanship. Never elsewhere has the idea of service to the state so dominated a government or a people.

"These senators were not supermen. They made serious mistakes, sometimes vacillated in their policies, often lost the vision of empire in the lust for personal gain. But most of them had been magistrates, administrators, and commanders. Some of them, as proconsuls, had ruled provinces as large as kingdoms. Many of them came of families that had given statesmen or generals to Rome for hundreds of years. It was impossible that a body made up of such men should escape some measure of excellence.

"The Senate was at its worst in victory, at its best in defeat. It could carry forward policies that spanned generations and centuries. It could begin a war in 264 and end it in 146 B.C.

"When Cineas, the philosopher who had come to Rome as envoy of Pyrrhus (280), had heard the Senate's deliberations and observed its men, he reported to the new Alexander that here was no mere gathering of venal politicians, no haphazard council of mediocre minds, but in dignity and statesmanship veritably 'an assemblage of kings.'"

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
September 15, 2003 - 07:38 am
Roman clothes. Check out the links at the bottom of the page.

Roman Timeline

georgehd
September 15, 2003 - 10:17 am
Thanks one and all for the marvelous links. I will be away until the end of September and will try to stay current by "lurking". I look forward to rejoining the group in October.

Shasta Sills
September 15, 2003 - 02:32 pm
Mal, those are fabulous links. I loved the description of the public baths, and wasn't the link about Roman theatre hilarious? It's so much more interesting to find out how people lived their lives, instead of just how they fought their wars.

Justin
September 15, 2003 - 03:03 pm
If some one will bring up the Ara Pacis in all it's sides, we will see a candid relief of a Roman family. (Augustus) as well as other interesting images.

Malryn (Mal)
September 15, 2003 - 04:08 pm
Ara Pacis, one side

Malryn (Mal)
September 15, 2003 - 04:11 pm
More Ara Pacis

Ginny
September 15, 2003 - 04:27 pm
AH the fabulous Ara Pacis, soon to be reopened in Rome, entirely encased in glass and a masterpiece, great choice, Justin!! There are diagrams and I'm sure Malryn can find them showing who is who all along the side there, fabulous, who can NOT enjoy Ancient Rome! (Just had to say that) haahahah

It's almost right across the river from the Castel St. Angelo (used to be Hadrian's Tomb) which is steps from the Vatican, so that gives you an idea where it's located, now closed to reopen soon.

Malryn (Mal)
September 15, 2003 - 05:50 pm
Click thumbnails to access larger picture

Malryn (Mal)
September 15, 2003 - 05:59 pm
"The Ara Pacis was decreed by the Senate on Augustus' return from Spain and Gaul in 13 BCE. It was dedicated in 9 BCE. It stood in the open air beside the Via Flaminia and its entrance was on the western side. In the 1930s it was recovered from its original position, on which a renaissance palace had been built, and moved to a site near the Tiber. It is encased in a modern roofed structure ana in its present orientation it is entered from the south. The altar itself is surrounded by a marble screen, on the long sides of which are reliefs probably depicting the procession at the inaugural sacrifice in 13. On the short sides are four allegorical panels. The lower zone of the exterior of the screen contains reliefs of acanthus scrolls. among which are birds, small animals and insects. On the interior of the screen were sculptures of garlands and bucrania (ox-skulls) and sacrificial implements. The surface of the altar itself, approached by interior steps, was flanked by raised panels or "wings," on the exterior of which were carved reliefs of a sacrificial procession, perhaps that for the dedication in 9 BCE.

"On the south side (formerly the west) is a panel showing Aeneas sacrificing the sow to the Penates.

" On the east side of the screen (formerly the south) is a procession showing Augustus (the fragmentary figure fourth from the left), with his lictors and religious officials (note the headwear of the flamines), and followed by the imperial family.

"In this part of the procession of the imperial family the tall veiled figure on the left is Agrippa, beside whom is the young Gaius (the future emperor Caligula), next to whom is Julia, daughter of Augustus. On the west side of the screen (formerly the north) is a procession of senators, dignitaries of state, and their families, not shown here.

" On the north side (formerly the east, facing the Via Flaminia) is a panel showing Earth (Terra Mater) or Peace, with two babies. A figure to the left rides on a swan and symbolizes the air, while to the right, riding on a sea- monster, a figure symbolizes the breezes of the sea. Below are a sheep and a cow in the center, and a river (symbolized by an urn and reeds) to the left, and, to the right, the waves or the sea. The allegory depicts the fertility of Italy renewed by the Pax Augusta."

robert b. iadeluca
September 15, 2003 - 07:19 pm
"The major officials were elected by the Centurial, the minor by the Tribal Assembly. Each office was held by a collegium of two or more colleagues, equal in power. The same office could be held by the same person only once in ten years. A year had to elapse between leaving one office and taking another. In the interval the ex-official could be prosecuted for malfeasance.

"The aspirant to a political career, if he survived a decade in the army, might seek election as one of the quaestors who, under the Senate and the consuls, managed the expenditure of state funds, and assisted the praetors in preventing and investigating crime. If he pleased his electors or his influential supporters, he might later be chosen one of the four aediles charged with the care of buildings, aqueducts, streets, markets, theaters, brothels, saloons, police courts, and public games.

"If again successful, he might be mde one of the four praetors who in war led armies, and in peace acted as judges and interpreters of the law."

Robby

tooki
September 15, 2003 - 08:40 pm
This site offers another discussion and approach to this very complex subject of Roman governance.

Roman Constitution

No wonder the Senators looked so serious. This is heavy stuff.

robert b. iadeluca
September 15, 2003 - 11:36 pm
Tooki, your link says that the Roman form of government "roughly parallels the modern American division of executive, legislative, and judicial branches."

Would it perhaps be more accurate to say that the American division parallels that of the Roman's? I go under the assumption that our nation's founders were highly educated and knew much about Ancient Greek and Roman history.

Robby

Justin
September 15, 2003 - 11:59 pm
We are now discussing Rome in the early days of the Republic. The Ara Pacis is an altar dedicated to Augustus in the Imperial period, about four centuries beyond our current period. I would not have introduced the work had Tooki and Shasta not wished to see senators in togas. These folks appear on the left side panel. There is so much to see on this monument that we can spread it out over the next several hundred years.

Fragments of the Ara Pacis were found in the 16th century CE and in 1934 we were able to solve the problem of retrieving the main body of this work. Not only was it buried in the Campus Martius but it formed a crucial part of the foundation for another building. Thus it could not be removed without the current structure falling. That problem was solved just before the out break of WW2. We now have the entire altar minus a few fragments that have been copied in terra cotta and pasted to the retrieved altar.

Most art historians are convinced there is nothing in Greco Roman art that is not Hellenistic or a Roman copy of a Greek work. The Ara Pacis, however, embodies a few elements that are pure Roman. It is public art. It portrays the gods and the emperor together for the first time to enhance the strength of a ruler. It portrays the emperor as part of the pantheon of gods and therefore a god himself. This has never been done before in public art. That is Roman and not a Greek derivative. The sculptured figures are individualized portraits in deep relief. The Greeks, you remember, were devoted to the ideal form not portraiture in a natural setting. Further, the Romans depict a narrative in this work. These are, and maybe the only elements in Greco Roman art that are Roman in origin.

As we advance through Roman civilization we will come upon events shown on the Ara Pacis and we will then be able to examine it again. There is one panel on the altar that is relevant in our current discussion. That is the panel depicting Aeneas as the founding father of Romulus whom we have just covered. It will become evident later that Julius Ceasar and Octavian trace their ancestry to Aeneas and Venus and that becomes the basis for Octavian Augustus to declare himself a god in a later period in the Roman adventure.

robert b. iadeluca
September 16, 2003 - 12:23 am
Thank you, Justin, for that most enlightening post. As you say, we will probably come across Ara Pacis again as the centuries pass. And now Durant continues about the earlier period.

"At about this point in the cursus honorum, or sequence of offices, the citizen who had made a name for integrity and judgdment might become one of the two censors ("valuators") chosen every fifth year by the Centurial Assembly. One of them would take the quinquennial census of the citizens, and assess their property for political and military status and for taxation.

"The censors watched over the honor of women -- the education of children -- the treatment of slaves -- the collection or farming of taxes -- the construction of public buildings -- the letting of governmental property or contracts -- and the proper cualtivation of the land. They could lower the rank of any citizen, or remove any member of the Senate, whom they found guilty of immorality or crime. In this function the power of either censor was immune to the veto of the other.

"They could try to check extravagance by raising taxes on luxuries. They prepared and published a budget of state expenditures on a five-year plan. At the close of their eighteen-month term they would gather the citizens together in a solemn ceremony of national purification (lustrum), as a means of maintaining cordial relations with the gods.

"Appius Claudius Caecus (the Blind), great-grandson of the Decemvir, was the first to make the censorship rival the consulate in dignity. During his term (312) he built the Appian Aqueduct and the Appian Way -- promoted rich plebeians to the Senate -- reformed land laws and state finances -- helped to break down the priestly and patrician monopoly and manipulation of the law -- left his mark on Roman grammar, rhetoric, and poetry, and by his deathbed speech against Pyrrhus, decided the Roman conquest of Italy."

The power of the censors. Incredible!

Robby

tooki
September 16, 2003 - 06:43 am
that the site was trying not to get involved with the governance setup in the United States. I do agree with you that our founding fathers understood the Roman Republic and aimed, while they had the chance, to correct its errors and make it clearer.

Justin: I have always thought the Romans brought to portraiture their own rugged, serious, and dogged naturalism that was not Hellenistic in orgin. It was wholly their own contribution. I appreciate your corroboration.

They are cute in their togas, regardless of their demeanors.

tooki
September 16, 2003 - 06:50 am
This site looks useful at clarifying.

The Roman Senate

It speaks to the power of the mightly censors.

tropicaltramp
September 16, 2003 - 10:08 am
Still acting as a very dry sponge, absorbing all. Keep it up!

Malryn (Mal)
September 16, 2003 - 10:10 am
Each man is the smith of his own fortune.
Claudius Caecus

"Appius Claudius Caecus, famous as the man responsible for the creation of the Appian Way and the Claudian Aqueduct, was a 5th or 6th generation Roman of Sabine descent. His ancestor had come to Rome about 504 BCE, bringing his entire gens with him. He served as consul in 495 BCE. Another ancestor, Decemvir Appius Claudius Crassus, a licentious individual, caused a revolt that led to the fall of the Decemvirs. One descendent was the infamous Publius Claudius Pulcher who was defeated by the Carthaginians in a sea battle. Legend says he was disrespectful to the gods when discouraged by the sacred chickens.*

"Claudius was elected to serve with Gaius Plautus as censors of Rome in 312 BCE. Their term of office was but 18 months. During this time they were responsible as guardians of public morals and at the same time, authorized and supervised public works and the maintenance of said structures.

"The two set out to improve conditions for the Romans. Claudius was to build a road that would replace at least one of the dirt paths on which Romans traveled. Plautus' task was to find a new source of water. Up to this point, Rome water was brought to the city from the Tiber River or nearby springs. Neither was a sufficient source of clean water for the continued growth of the city of Rome.

"Plautus found some springs about 10 miles east of Rome. His task was to build a system, mostly underground, by which water could flow into Rome.

"Claudius chose a well traveled and fairly wide path that led from the Porta Capena in the Servian Walls to the Alban Hills. He decreed that this path should be leveled and graveled. When necessary, stone supports could raise the road across valleys and through marshlands. Engineers were engaged to design the road and supervise its construction. Convicted criminals would provide the labor.

"When the office of censor had been created, the term was one of 5 years. Because of the corruption of the office, a law was passed (Lex Aemilia) to limit the term to 18 months, a period of time in which not much could be accomplished. Plautus followed the law and resigned his position. Claudius did not resign and because of his stubbornness, no one would serve with him. The road had been completed to Capua during his 'legitimate' 18 months of office. Claudius stayed on as censor to finish the aqueduct begun by Plautus. In doing so, he became' the man who brought water to Rome. Plautus had been hampered in completing his goal, because the design of the arch had not yet been mastered by engineers . His plan was for a water supply system that began with a pipe 50 ft. below the surface of the land and ran almost the entire length to Rome underground. Digging the trenches and laying the pipeline could not be done as rapidly as building a road. Thus what might have been called the Aqua Plauta is now known as the Aqua Claudia. The name lives on today as the brand of a commercial bottled water in Rome.

  • SACRED CHICKENS:

    "Romans believed strongly in omens. When Claudius went to sea, he brought a flock of sacred chickens with him. When he needed a sign, a chicken would be killed and its liver inspected. A healthy liver was a favorable sign; a deseased liver suggested it was not a good time to risk a battle. The chickens were refusing to eat and this worried the men with Claudius. Their continued refusal angered Claudius and he threw all the chickens overboard with the comment (so the story goes), 'If they won't eat, let them drink.' The battle was lost…because the gods did not favor the Romans - or because the men were convinced they were not intended to win and thus did not fight with all their will..."

  • Justin
    September 16, 2003 - 01:23 pm
    Two censors were elected every five years but served a term of only 18 months. Claudius Caecus was an exception . During his five year period he served alone and well beyond the eighteenth year. It is difficult to understand the intent and purpose of the discontinuity created by the discrepancy between term and election interval. Is there something Durant is not telling us?

    tooki
    September 16, 2003 - 01:41 pm
    I can understand inspecting the entrails and/or livers of fouls, animals or even reptiles for auspicious omens. Cultures of all kinds have done that. I believe some contemporary "wicans" and such still do. However, what might make the chickens themselves sacred? Some little ceremony beforehand?

    Thanks, Mal, and also thanks for Ara Pacis. I went over the sites again, and I am more impressed with the stateliness of these people. How interesting that two peoples - the Greeks and the Romans - should live in proximity, interact from an early historic age, and be so different.

    The Romans appear to be like the folks who live in Lake Woebegone, for those of you familiar with Garrison Keilor. "Lake Woebegone, where the women are all strong, the men handsome, and the children above average."

    Shasta Sills
    September 16, 2003 - 03:23 pm
    My knowledge about the Romans is a complete blank because I always preferred the Greeks. The Greeks were philosophers, thinkers. I thought the Romans did nothing but fight battles. But they did some practical things too, which I also admire. They made aqueducts and built roads. Did you read that section farther back about how they did their laundry when they couldn't get rainwater? Horrors! It sure makes you appreciate modern plumbing, doesn't it? Thank goodness they figured out how to build aqueducts.

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 16, 2003 - 05:27 pm
    "Very few plebeians were chosen to be a consul, for even the plebs preferred men of education and training for an office that would have to deal with every executive phase of peace and war throughout the Miediterranean. On the eve of the election the magistrate in charge of it observed the stars to see if they favored the presentation of the several candidates' names.

    Presiding over the Centurial Assembly on the morrow, he might offer to its choice only those names that the auspices had approved. In this way the aristocracy discouraged 'upstarts' and demagogues, and in most cases the Assembly, awed or intimidated, submitted to the pious fraud.

    "The candidate appeared in person, dressed in a plain white (candidus) toga to emphasize the simplicity of his life and morals, and perhaps the more easily to show the scars he had won in the field. If elected, he entered office on the ensuing March 15.

    "The consul took on sanctity by leading the state in the most solemn religious rites. In peace he summoned and presided over the Senate and the Assembly, initiated legislation, administered justice, and in general executed the laws.

    "In war he levied armies, raised funds, and shared with his fellow consul command of the legions. If both of them died or were captured during their year of office, the Senate declared an interregnum, and appointed an interrex (or interval-king) for five days, while a new election was being prepared.

    "The word suggests that the consuls had inherited, for their brief term, the powers of the kings."

    Again the power of religion over the state?

    Robby

    Justin
    September 16, 2003 - 07:37 pm
    Perhaps, I have not been paying attention to auguries as we went through the various civilizations but I can't seem to pinpoint the place and time where we first encountered the quality of chicken liver as a predictor of future events. Does anyone have any clue to the origin of this strange practice?

    tooki
    September 16, 2003 - 08:59 pm
    And here I was thinking these people looked so reasonable, calm and resolute and they were justing waiting to see what the chicken livers fortold.

    Roman Superstitutions

    tooki
    September 16, 2003 - 09:07 pm
    This is a bit off topic, but I couldn't resist. Et tu freerange! Indeed!

    More About Chickens

    Very scary in this contemporary secular world.

    3kings
    September 16, 2003 - 10:27 pm
    A few lines on from Robby's above quotes, I see Durant refers to VETO. I had always recognized the word's Latin origins but thought it came to the fore at a much later period.

    With this device they destroyed all chance of developing a democratic form of Government, much as the UN veto is preventing that body from achieving the hopes of the founding member States.

    What say you? Can Democracy and the concept of Veto co-exist in the same body ?== Trevor

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 17, 2003 - 01:27 am
    Tropical Tramp has shared the following information about himself in an email and has given me permission to post it here for our Story of Civilization family. So now thanks to him S of C now has complete North American coverage.

    "I live in Mexico at Alamos, Sonora. I am a 3rd generation Californian Irish/French /Mohican/ etc/ for 57 other varieties al la Heinz.



    "I am finishing up the historical research on the History of Jesuit mining, Exloration, and subjection (slavery) of the Indians. This may well rewrite some of the Western History. of the US. and Mexico.



    "I am also a member of the Explorers Club based in New York."

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 17, 2003 - 01:36 am
    Here is a MAP of Sonora, Mexico and its relationship to the United States, showing us where our new friend Tropical Tramp lives.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 17, 2003 - 01:51 am
    That's wonderful news, ROBBY, and thanks for posting the map. Aren't you up awfully early this morning?

    Mal

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 17, 2003 - 01:51 am
    Durant continues:--

    "The consul was limited by the equal authority of his colleague, by the pressure of the Senate, and by the veto power of the tribune. After 367 B.C. fourteen military tribunes were chosen to lead the tribes in war, and ten 'tribunes of the plebs' to represent them in peace.

    "These ten were sacrosancti -- it was a sacrilege, as well as a capital crime, to lay violent hands upon them except under a legitimate dictatorship. Their function was to protect the people against the government, and to stop by one word -- veto, 'I forbid' -- the whole machinery of the state, whenever to any one of them this seemed desirable.

    "As a silent observer the tribune could attend the meetings of the Senate, report its deliberations to the people, and by his veto, deprive the Senate's decisions of all legal force. The door of his inviolable home remained open day and night to any citizen who sought his protection or his aid, and this right of sanctuary or asylum provided the equivalent of habeas corpus. Seated on his tribunal he could act as judge, and from his decision there was no appeal except to the Assembly of the Tribes.

    "It was his duty to secure the accused a fair trial, and when possible, to win some pardon for the condemned."

    The description of the term "veto" is obviously of much greater scope than "veto" as we mean it today. The word that comes to my mind is "ombudsman" -- a person who is on the side of the people, reports to them, and who is free from authority in the usual sense. Hospitals have ombudsmen. Newspapers have ombudsmen.

    But the Tribune, as I understand it here, does not have a modern equivalent. His door is constantly open to the people and he is stronger than all the governmental agencies. The closest to this in our democracy, as I see it, is the system of Checks and Balances.

    Any comments here?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 17, 2003 - 01:53 am
    I wanted to see what you were up to, Mal!!

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 17, 2003 - 02:33 am
    Up to no good, Robby. You made me laugh. I'm tracking the hurricane while I wonder if Isabel is going to visit me or you.

    Mal

    georgehd
    September 17, 2003 - 03:37 am
    Chopped chicken liver is a Jewish favorite but I do not think that we see much of the future in it other than higher cholesterol. I too am watching the storm as I leave today for Baltimore which means I will need an umbrella. Mal you will probably get wind and rain as we will also.

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 17, 2003 - 09:13 am
    What do you mean, GEORGE? It's an absolutely gorgeous day here in my part of North Carolina. There's more wind than usual for some reason, though. (I love chopped chicken liver. Why didn't I tell my daughter to buy some chicken livers for me so I could make some for a romantic little supper when the lights go out?)

    BCB, George. (Be careful in Baltimore!)

    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 17, 2003 - 11:29 am
    TRIBUNE

    Justin
    September 17, 2003 - 01:44 pm
    TT: It is nice to note the presence of another historian in the group. You are aware, I am sure, as are many historians in California of the role of the missionary Franciscans in enslaving the Indians for the construction and maintenance of the missions. These missionaries were Spanish during a time when Spain and the Church were linked in cruel persecution of every one not of their stamp. Heretics were everywhere and the American "savage" was clearly heathen.

    Justin
    September 17, 2003 - 02:07 pm
    I think you are right about "checks and Balances" being the American Tribune, Robby. During the 2000 election we became aware of a little used "check" or "veto" on the will of the people. The Florida Legislature had the right to disregard the count of the people's ballot for president and to appoint electors who would vote Republican. Boy, that would have raised a stink but the Supreme Court would have backed them.

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 17, 2003 - 06:21 pm
    "How did the aristocracy retain its ascendancy despite these obstructive powers?

    First, by limiting them to the city of Rome and to times of peace. In war the tribunes obeyed the consuls.

    "Secondly, by persuading the Tribal Assembly to elect wealthy plebeians as tribunes. The prestige of wealth and the diffidence of poverty moved the people to choose the rich to defend the poor.

    "Thirdly, by allowing the number of tribunes to be raised from four to ten. If only one of these ten would listen to reason or money, his veto could frustrate the rest.

    "In the course of time the tribunes became so dependable that they could be trusted to convene the Senate, take part in its deliberations, and become life members of it after their terms.

    "If all these maneuvers failed, dictatorship remained. The Romans recognized that in times of national chaos or peril, their liberties and privileges, and all the checks and balances that they had creatd for their own protection, might impede the rapid and united action needed to save the state. In such cases the Senate could declare an emergency, and then either consul could name a dictator.

    "In every instance but one the dictators came from the upper classes. But it must be said that the aristocracy rarely abused the possibilities of this office. The dictator received almost complete authority over all persons and property, but he could not use public funds without the Senate's consent, and his term was limited to six months or a year. All dictators but two obeyed these restrictions, honoring the story of how Cincinnatus, called from the plow to save the state (456 B.C), returned to his farm as soon as the task was done.

    "When this precedent was violated by Sulla and Caesar, the Republic passed back into the monarchy out of which it had come."

    Do you folks agree that the poor are usually diffident to the point of choosing the rich to defend them? And do the upper class rarely abuse their office?

    Robby

    Justin
    September 17, 2003 - 10:55 pm
    Yes, I think the poor in the US very often choose the rich to represent them. Warm food, a cozy bed, a dry roof and an active sports channel, go a long way toward making the poor unconcerned about national and international issues. The poor, usually, do not have sufficient leisure to allow interest in things other than day to day concern. I think they also have a tendency to equate capability with wealth and its acquisition.

    Unfortunately, our representatives occasionally take advantage of the trust placed in them by the disadvantaged among us.

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 18, 2003 - 06:12 am
    "Within this unique constitution the magistrates administered a system of law based upon the Twelve Tables of the Decemvirs. Before that epochal enactment Roman law had been a mixture of tribal customs, royal edicts, and priestly commands. Mos maiorum -- the way of the ancients -- remained a source of law. Though imagination and edification idealized the ruthless burghers of the early Republic, the tales of them helped educators to form a stoic character in Roman youth.

    "For the rest, early Roman law was a priestly rule, a branch of religion, surrounded with sacred sanctions and solemn rites. Law was both lex and ius -- command and justice. It was a relation not only between man and man but between man and the gods. Crime was a disturbance of that relation, of the pax decorum or peace of the gods. Law and punishment were in theory designed to maintain or restore that relation and peace.

    "The priests declared on what days the courts might open and the assemblies meet. All questions regarding marriage or divorce, celibacy or incest, wills or transfers, or the rights of children, required the priest as now so many of them require the lawyer.

    "Only the priests knew the formulas without which hardly anything cold be legally done. They were in Rome the first iurisconsulti, consultants in the law, counselors. They were the first to give responsa, or legal opinions.

    "The laws were recorded in their books, and these volumes were so securely guarded from the plebs that suspicion charged the priests with altering the texts, on occasion, to suit ecclesiastical or aristocratic ends."

    I am wondering, as I read this, if there is "suspicion" leading some people to thinking that lawyers in this day and age "alter the texts." Why do so many jokes about lawyers exist?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 18, 2003 - 06:36 am
    Regarding the inter-relationship between Secular Law and Religious Law, this LINK is probably too long for most of us to read but you might find the first couple of paragraphs relevant to what Durant is stating.

    Robby

    tooki
    September 18, 2003 - 06:36 am
    There was much ado in the media about yesterday's veto by the US of a UN resolution that censured Isreal for wanting to kill Arafat. That must be what we mean by the power of the veto.

    The Durants were being scarastic when they said, "...the diffidence of poverty moved the people to choose the rich to defend the poor." They obviously never were poor. When you're poor you have other things on your mind besides who is representating you in the government. When you're poor you don't choose anything.

    The passage, "...in times of national chaos or peril...checks and balance created for protection might impede...action to save the state," speaks to conditions today. At least in Rome we have the Durants' word that Dictators rarely abused the power. Somehow I suspect that view. What an untrusting sort of person I am!

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 18, 2003 - 06:37 am
    Regarding the inter-relationship between Secular Law and Religious Law, this LINK is probably too long for most of us to read but you might find the first couple of paragraphs relevant to what Durant is stating.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 18, 2003 - 06:40 am
    Tooki:--As for dictators abusing or not abusing their power, do you believe there is such a thing as "benign paternalism?"

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 18, 2003 - 06:43 am
    Tooki:--As for dictators abusing or not abusing their power, do you believe there is such a thing as "benign paternalism?"

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 18, 2003 - 06:46 am
    I know I am about to open a CAN OF WORMS but as Durant has brought up the topic of "religious law" vs "secular law," what are your reactions to this?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 18, 2003 - 07:56 am
    "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's."

    Matthew Chapter 22, Verse 21 (King James Version)

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 18, 2003 - 08:15 am
    There must be a separation between church and state. We have examined earlier civilizations than the Roman one, which collapsed when priests were allowed to seize power and tried to run the state by the rules and laws of the religion they represented. Therefore, it is my opinion that religious law has no place in governments anywhere.

    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 18, 2003 - 08:19 am
    My former husband worked for a very large corporation most of our married life. Sometimes people complain about corporations without really knowing what they are. The corporation for which my husband worked was very good to its employees in more ways than I can list here. Other large corporations I know of are the same. This is an example of "benign paternalism", and, yes, there is such a thing.

    Mal

    Mary W
    September 18, 2003 - 10:41 am
    Sorry to interrupt the discussion bu-- Having experienced many hurrcanes and tornadoes I'm concerned for those of you in Isabel's path. MAL--You are probably far enough inland to be spared the worst of the storm--perhaps high wind and lots of rain. ROBBY--I'm not sure where you are but I hope you are safe. All of you up there take care. There is no such thing as a small hurricane. Hank Evans

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 18, 2003 - 10:47 am
    HANK, 33 mph wind gusts here, and we've had heavy rain. The power is trying to go off. I'll send you an email before it does.

    Mal

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 18, 2003 - 11:20 am
    Thanks, Hank. I am in the foothills of the Blue Ridge Mountains in Virginia but the mountains are to the West of me and the hurricane is coming from the East. I don't know exactly but I guess I am about 30 miles west of Chesapeake Bay. That may ease the winds off a bit but I am expecting torrents of rain in an already soaked soil. It is already raining heavily. My tin roof sounds like tympany.

    Robby

    tooki
    September 18, 2003 - 11:38 am
    Sputter! Sputter! I'm pleased that Mal's experiences with benign paternalism were positive. Mine, however, were, shall we say, lacking in benignity. "If referring literally to a father's love of and care for his offspring, the concept is a worthy one. If it is intended as a description of a socio-economic-political phenomenon, it's simply an oxymoron."

    tooki
    September 18, 2003 - 11:58 am
    Here is a site that discusses "benign paternalism" in a context of psychological counseling concepts. Robby must read it all the way through because he brought up the subject. For others who may be interested, the discussion of benigh paternalism is found in paragraphs 5 and 6, if I have counted correctly. Somewhere there.

    Philosophical Counseling

    One of my partners told a red neck in a bar, after much coaxing about what he did for a living, that he "Did Philosophy." The questioner said, "That's very interesting. I had a relative who had to go see one of those guys once."

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 18, 2003 - 12:42 pm
    I read it in its entirety, Tooki, and will get back to you.

    Robby

    Justin
    September 18, 2003 - 03:56 pm
    That's one of the things I like about you' Robby. Everyonce in awhile you stick your neck out with a controversial subject. The big hunk of stone with the Ten Commandments outside Judge Whosis's courtroom in Alabama is clearly a breech of the First Amendment. By exhibiting the rules of the Christian religion in a public court room one preempts the free exercise of other religious beliefs, particularly that of atheism, but also that of other Asian religions. While canon law may have been influential in the formation of the legal structure of the US it is by no means part and parcel of that structure. The laws of this country are secular and must remain so if we are to be free from religion.

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 18, 2003 - 05:18 pm
    This morning I received a phone call from BUBBLE. She's been vacationing in Switzerland, and is now in Brussels, Belgium. She was worried about me and others who have been in the path of Hurricane Isabel today. Bubble is enjoying her time away, and sends her regards to all of us.

    Mal

    Justin
    September 18, 2003 - 06:45 pm
    Since you, Mal and Robby, are still on line I have to believe Isabel has passed you and the lights remain on. I hope you did not receive any damage.

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 18, 2003 - 06:58 pm
    Justin, there has been no significant damage to this property -- branches down, shredded leaves all over the outside of the house, a leak in my skylight, driveway and yards full of branches and other debris, but other than that all okay. There are still wind gusts of 33 + mph here in Chapel Hill, NC. Trees are down; there's flooding here, thousands of homes are without power. Robby is just feeling the effects of the storm as it goes up the Chesapeake Bay, I think. It's hard to believe our electricity stayed on.

    Mal

    tooki
    September 19, 2003 - 06:51 am
    or, the separation of church and state.

    "In the Middle Ages, law was considered to have been dictated by Divine Will and revealed to wise men. The most ancient legal precedents and customs were considered to be the best law, and much of Continental Europe wound up modeling secular law after the old Roman law. In Byzantium, secular and sacred law was somewhat intermingled, with secular law taking precedence. In Western Europe, however, religious and secular law were separate bodies. Church law was known as Canon Law, and applied to the clergy, to the secular world in matters of the administration of the Sacraments such as marriage, and to the immunity of the clergy from secular law.

    THIS IS THE ROOT OF THE CONFLICT BETWEEN CHURCH AND STATE."

    I think this succinctly states the problem. The two kinds of law: Canon, or sacred law, and Secular Law keep sticking their noses in the other's business. Whose business is it to govern marriage? Is marriage a sacred sacrament or a business deal? Is being responsible for your children your godly duty or your civic responsibility? You shouldn't kill because God doesn't like it, or it upsets the civic balance of folks living together?

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 19, 2003 - 07:05 am
    Marriage is a contract. Try breaking it without a lawyer.

    Raising my kids was my responsibility -- period.

    I don't kill anyone or break secular laws because I'll get in trouble with the law and go to jail.

    I was raised in a religion that had no religious laws or even a creed. It prepared me well to live without religion.

    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 19, 2003 - 07:08 am
    Folks, I think it's a very safe bet to say ROBBY has no electricity. There are so many people without power in Virginia right now that it's hard to say when his might be restored. Let's carry on, shall we?

    Mal

    Ginny
    September 19, 2003 - 07:46 am
    Wonderful idea, Malryn, I think you all should do just that, Robby will be very proud of all of you when he returns and I'll be glad to help hold the fort here as temporary contact till he gets back.

    Robby and I had been discussing this post and thought you all, since you mentioned aqueducts back there, or Justin did, would like to see the remains of some from 300 BC originally posted in the Julius Caesar discussion, and to know maybe something else about aqueducts and what they eventually evolved into in the later Empire?

    I thought you might enjoy seeing just one of the engineering triumphs of the Romans, something of great fascination to me, an example of Roman engineering and hydraulics: the Aqueduct.

    The Romans did not invent the aqueduct, but elevated the concept to new heights. Over a distance of more than 500 kilometers on what Goethe called "a succession of triumphal arches," the Romans brought tremendous volumes of water, estimated at 150-200 million gallons per day,(Guide to the Aqueducts of Ancient Rome... Aicher) into the city of Rome, stored it in various stages of collection tanks, and distributed it to the 13,000 public fountains, 11 gigantic public baths called Thermae, 856 other public baths, and wealthy private homes, which did have running water. The water also helped flush refuse from the city in the huge sewer, the Cloaca Maxmia, still in use today.

    The aqueduct

    illustration of aqueduct's path: click to enlarge:

    operated on a principle of water running along a channel on the top, slanted to a gradual fall to control the volume and pressure. Among the more famous aqueducts the Romans built remaining are this one in France, (Gaul) the Pont du Gard


    The Pont du Gard in France: click to enlarge:

    which has the astounding drop of 7mm over a hundred meters, an amazing feat of engineering.

    Julius Caesar would have known four of the eleven eventual aqueducts, the Appia (312 BC, 75,000 cubic meters a day) the Anio Vetus (272-269 BC) (180,000 cubic meters per day.), The Marcia (144-140 BC: 190,000 cubic meters of water per day) and the Tepula, a warm water channel from a hot spring often mixed with the others as desired, (126-125BC) 17, 800 cubic meters per day.

    The Aqua Marcia of Caesar's day is still partially seen here


    The Aqua Marcia in 2002: click to enlarge:

    in remains in a park in the suburbs of Rome in 2002. This Park of the Aqueducts has an astonishing confluence of mammoth arches and aqueducts.

    more....

    Ginny
    September 19, 2003 - 07:48 am
    Here the Claudian arcade


    The incredible sight of the Aqua Claudia in 2002: click to enlarge

    stretches into the countryside. The Aqua Claudia, built in 38-52 AD, was 69 kilometers long and 67 meters high, bringing in 185, 000 cubic meters of water per second into the city. Its mammoth ruins


    The Aqua Claudia up close: click to enlarge:

    even now inspire awe, tho they let archaeological tour busses drive underneath it!

    When water came into the city, the public fountains came first in distribution, and then the baths, and then the private homes. The most famous Roman Thermae or huge Baths left in ruins are the Baths of Caracalla (212 A.D. )


    Reconstruction of the Baths of Caracalla: click to enlarge:

    (capacity 1,600 bathers) and Diocletian(300 A.D.),


    The Baths of Diocletian: click to enlarge:

    (capacity 3,200 bathers) huge complexes of many acres, with tremendous mammoth vaults, hot rooms, cold rooms, saunas, warm rooms, gymnasiums, pools, the Super Gym of the ancient world.

    The Baths of Diocletian were partly saved by Michelangelo, and are now the Basilica of Santa Maria degli Angeli. Michelangelo adapted the huge tepidarium (or warm room) of the Baths of Diocletian, the largest bath ever built in Rome, and thus can be visited today. This room is a jaw dropping experience, the vastness of the ancient vault is simply almost unimaginable

    Ginny
    September 19, 2003 - 07:52 am
    The warm rooms of the baths were achieved by means of hypocausts


    hypocaust: click to enlarge

    Here heating for a caldarium or hot room is shown. From the oven, hot air passed under a section of the pool, maintaining it at a constant temperature as a result of the convective flow typical of fluids, which means that cold water tends to fall and warm water to rise. The hot air was conveyed to the hypocaust (the cavity under the floor which was supported by pillars) and then rose to the vents on the roof, flowing through the brick pipes that entirely covered the wall s of the caldarium. (Ancient Rome) The floor was often too hot to walk on and bathers used wooden-soled clogs. Ruins of hypocausts can be found in every country the Romans occupied, here a model in France


    hypocaust model: click to enlarge

    showing how it worked. One of the best extant examples of hypocausts is in Bath, England.



    One of the greatest contributions the ancient Romans made to the world was in the area of engineering, construction, and architecture, and their aqueducts, still seen in satellite photos of Africa, stand, aided by the detailed descriptions of them by Frontinus and Vitrivius, as monuments of achievement in the ancient world.


    The Claudian Aqueduct, Rome: 2002: fabulous close up: click to enlarge!

    Ginny
    September 19, 2003 - 07:59 am
    I will just say that many people visit Rome and Italy and are totally unaware of the aqueducts around them, but if you look hard at the top of some of the old arches in the walls (not triumphal arches) , you can see, in some cases, as many as three channels of the old aqueducts running across them. The Park of the Aqueducts was a well kept secret until a couple of years ago when the Architectural Tours began running out there, and they may stop, that would be a shame because most people don't even know (unless they see a quick glimpse of them from a train window) that they are there and they are INCREDIBLE structures which span a huge piece of time from 323 BC to today actually, one of them still works, with no mortar, just incredible engineering.

    ginny

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 19, 2003 - 08:09 am
    GINNY, how kind and generous of you to post these wonderful images and this information for us. We do appreciate it. Thank you.

    Now, TOOKI, JUSTIN and the rest of you, grab this hook and run with it, will you? We don't want to let ROBBY down while he must be offline.

    Mal

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    September 19, 2003 - 09:57 am
    Ginny, how delightful to see these aquaducts. I was so fortunate to have seen two of them, the Roman Bath in the city of Bath in England that I saw in the 1970's.

    Also the Pont du Gard which I often see when I go to that area in France. The South of France has many reminders of Roman times. It feels so strange to be walking on the same stones the Rmans walked on.

    Eloïse

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    September 19, 2003 - 10:03 am
    ROMAN BATH IN BATH ENGLAND

    Take the tour. I put my hand in the water and it was warm almost hot.

    tooki
    September 19, 2003 - 01:15 pm
    Thank you Ginny and Eloise for the tours back through time to feel the flow and warmth of the Romans' water. What do you suppose prompted the Romans to use all that water? Did their water wants cause them to become such wonderous hydralic engineers? Or did they create access to water because they were such marvelous engineers?

    Justin
    September 19, 2003 - 02:55 pm
    Rome needed water. What they had was swampy and smelly. Tiber water was acceptable upstream of Rome. Downstream Tiber water was poluted. We know today, it was a cause of Typhus. If Romans were to stay on site, new water sources were essential. Acquaducts answered the problem. They were built with the help of the legions and the guidance of Etruscans. The aquaducts gave them so much water,that after storage in cisterns for military purposes, the excess was used to decorate the city. Fountains and waterfalls appeared in piazzas. In later centuries artists such as Bernini designed and constructed elaborate fountains that delight us today. Gardens such as the Boboli have been possible in Rome because water is available.

    Justin
    September 19, 2003 - 03:10 pm
    During the Middle Ages Canon Law and Secular Law were often the cause of conflict between Church and State. Henry ll and the Archbishop of Canterbury engaged in one such tustle over who should try a monk who had flatened someone with a processional crucifix. Thomas Becket who was archbishop at the time claimed the right to try the monk under canon law. Henry ll assumed the right to try citizens in his secular courts. One night some of Henry's buddies showed up at the Cathedral and stomped poor Thomas to death. The King had his way but the Pope forced Henry to beg forgiveness and to take penance from the monk's buddies at the monastery.

    Shasta Sills
    September 19, 2003 - 03:11 pm
    Not only did the Romans need water, but it was a good idea to put those legions to work doing something useful instead of just looking for battles to fight.

    Justin
    September 19, 2003 - 03:15 pm
    Yes, Shasta. There was always the chance that a legion or two with nothing to do might advance on Rome. There was a rule against that kind of activity but once Caesar crossed the Rubicon all constraints were off.

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    September 19, 2003 - 03:45 pm
    Tooki, Did their water wants cause them to become such wonderous hydralic engineers?

    My mother often said: "Necessity is the mother of invention". She forgot to mention profit.

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 19, 2003 - 03:56 pm
    My electricity went off for five hours this afternoon. Does anyone remember Eupalinus?
    "Eupalinus, son of Naustrophus, was a celebrated architect and engineer, best known for the remarkable tunnel he built on the island of Samos in 520 BC as part of a new water supply system for the capital city. This tunnel, which was 1.75 x 1.75 metres in cross-section and just over one kilometre long, carried the main aqueduct through Mount Ambelos. This magnificent piece of engineering, which was discovered during the course of excavations in the area at the end of the 19th century, is considered a truly extraordinary feat, particularly given the means available at that time. The tunnel was dug simultaneously from both ends, and met in the middle. Eupalinus both correctly applied his geometric calculations and laid the line out correctly on the ground. Two teams of labourers, working from either end, took ten years to complete the work, and they met almost exactly where they were supposed to."
    Were the Romans creative, or were they imitative developers? Does anyone remember Archimedes Screw? Do the harsh Twelve Tables remind you at all of the Hammurabi Code?

    tooki
    September 19, 2003 - 04:25 pm
    Geez, Mal, we have 700 pages to go. I'm not going to decide yet. Although it seems clear already that they possessed a certain kind of doggedness that empowered them in large accomplishments. As Shasta noted, they also had those hordes of robust Legionaires who needed to be kept busy.

    Justin: that's quite a blood thirsty story. Will I need to jump ahead to the Durants' volume on English history to determine if what you say has merit? I'll just believe you because I like Becket more than the King.

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 19, 2003 - 08:22 pm
    "The Twelve Tables effected a double juristic revolution; the publication and secularization of Roman law. Like other codes of the sixth and fifth centuries -- those of Charondas, Zaleucus, Lycurgus, Solon -- they represented a change from uncertain, unwritten custom to definite written law; they were a result of increasing literacy and democracy. The ius civile, or law of citizens, freed itself in these Tables from the ius divinum, or divine law; Rome decided not to be a theocracy. The priestly monopoly was further deflated when the secretary of Appius Claudius the Blind published a calendar of court days (dies fasti -- 'days of utterance'), and a 'formulary' of proper legal procedures, which had till then been known to few but the priests. Secularization took another step when Coruncianus began the first known public instruction in Roman law; from that time onward the lawyer replaced the priest and dominated the mind and life of Rome. Soon the Tables were made the basis of education; till Cicero's day all schoolboys had to learn them by heart, and doubtless they had a share in forming the stern and orderly, litigious and legalistic, Roman soul. Amended and supplemented again and again -- by legislation, praetorial edicts, senatusconsulata, and imperial decrees -- the Twelve Tables remained for nine hundred years the basic law of Rome."
    The lawyer replaced the priest and dominated the mind and life of Rome? Could that happen in our world? Or has it already?

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 19, 2003 - 08:27 pm
    THE TWELVE TABLES

    Justin
    September 19, 2003 - 10:06 pm
    Tooki; That's a good reason to believe me. The Holy Roman Emperor had his troubles with Canon Law also. One thought he had the power to appoint bishops. The Pope didn't agree, so the naughty Emperor was made to stand barefoot in the snow outside a cathedral for a full day and night.

    Bubble
    September 20, 2003 - 06:33 am
    Hello! I am back at last! There is much catch up to do, you have all been so prolific. I glanced at the last posts and saw "baths and aquaducts"



    <www.davidsonumc.org/images/israel/pages/caesarea_jpg.htm>



    This is our local one, on the beach of Caesarea. If you pour water in the clay pipes of this aquaduct, it flows off without dripping away.



    I could not find a link to our famous Roman therms excavated in Jericho.

    Ginny
    September 20, 2003 - 06:42 am
    Hello Sea Bubble, so glad to see you back!!

    Thank you Malryn and all, what truly wonderful posts here, loved the question, Tooki and Eloise, the BATH!! I love BAth or Baaaaath as they say it and went again this spring, they no longer want you to touch the water so I did not (tho have in the past) apparently they fear whatever's in it but it WAS warm, wasn't it? VERY. And for the first time I saw bubbles in it coming to the surface, very exciting thing to see and of course THE model of hypocausts for all time.

    Peter Aicher in his book on Aqueducts (Guide to the Aqueducts of Ancient Rome) takes up first other aqueducts, the one in Iran (qanats, which still supply the water of Teheran), in Assyria, in Medes and Persia, in North Africa to Spain, in Niveah, Turkey and Iran, in Samos and Athena....one which ran 42 kilometers and had two and three subterranean terracotta pipes. "This aqueduct, though neither the first nor the last to serve the ancient city, was one of the high points of Hellenistic engineering, and included a section under pressure that enabled the pipes to cross two valleys at elevations below that of the water's terminus in town." Early Roman efforts were "primarly the underground channels similar in construction to the drainage systems of the Etruscans."

    But it was the Romans who took the level of engineering to new and previously unimaginable heights and fed their mammoth social structure of baths, fountains, and running water in the homes of the rich.

    For instance, the aqueduct of Samos was 1,100 m long that "perforated the mountain standing between Samos and its source of water."

    The Marcian Aqueduct, built in 144 BC, was 91 kilometers long and brought into the city 190,000 cubic meters of water per second.

    It was one of 11 aqueducts of Rome.

    Their storage facilities and hydraulic engineering is incredible, and has caused some people to say they were Men from Mars. hahahaah

    The Tepula Aqueduct was warm water, from a warm spring which then was mixed with two other Aqueducts at will, sometimes alone, sometimes joining with the others as it came into the city, for the right temperature when it got to its destination! The Pont du Gard, still standing in France (see photo above) is part of one aqueduct that was 20 kilometers long, and crossed that steep ravine, three tiers of arches preserving their original lines, built "without mortar out of yellow limestone blocks."

    As Justin says, before the Romans began to build aqueducts, they had to haul water from wells or cisterns or use the Tiber. At the height of the empire, there were 11 aqueducts, stretching over 450 kilometers, feeding, in 400 AD, 856 public baths and eleven grand thermae or grand baths like those of Diocletian and Caracalla above, and innumerable fountains and homes.

    A total water volume at the height of the city (excluding the Traiana and Alexandrina aqueducts) was 1,001,800 cubic meters per second.

    That's a LOT of water!

    And there's so much more, the collection systems and tanks, the way they regulated the pressure of all that water coming in, the syphon, I recommend Aicher's very detailed book to anybody interested in hydraulics or the ancient aqueducts of Rome!

    Water is one of the most important quantities anybody can have, if you notice the old photos of the pioneers in America? They are usually standing near a well showing they have water. It's hard to live if you have no water, the Romans carried it to incredible heights of engineering, to have lived 2,000 years ago and more!

    And today, if you go to Rome, a small water fountain from an aqueduct at the Vatican attracts crowds of people filling water bottles in the heat because it's ice cold and very good!

    ginny

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 20, 2003 - 07:15 am
    Welcome back, BUBBLE! Thank you for the marvelous aqueduct information, GINNY. Below is a link to the site of the URL Bubble posted.

    Caesarea Aqueduct

    Bubble
    September 20, 2003 - 07:31 am
    Thanks Mal, I forgot how to do it! Glad to see you are sound and safe too. Bubble

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 20, 2003 - 08:07 am
    I'm glad you're safe and sound, too, BUBBLE!

    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 20, 2003 - 08:08 am
    Aqua Anio Vetus. Click image for larger picture

    Tools used by Romans to build aqueducts. Click left menu link

    How the Romans built aqueducts. Click left menu link

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 20, 2003 - 08:13 am
    Do it yourself! The Roman Aqueduct, 145 links

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 20, 2003 - 08:17 am
    "The baths of the Emperor Caracalla, for example, covered nearly a 28 acre site. It contained more than 1,600 marble seats, and still fell short of the baths of Diocletian, which seated over 3,000. 'Stupendous aqueducts,' reported Gibbons in the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, 'replenished the Thermae, or baths, constructed with Imperial magnificence...walls covered with mosaics; perpetual streams of hot water poured into capacious basins through so many wide mouths of bright and massy silver.'



    "Miles from the source of supply, water flowed through a series of aqueducts, streaming by gravity along the contours of land. The longest overhead section was about 14 miles long, but by 52 A.D., channeling covered a total of 220 miles all but 30 miles underground. At its peak development, aqueducts carried about 300 gallons of water for every citizen."




    History of Plumbing: Roman and English legacy

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 20, 2003 - 08:49 am
    "The Romans built huge aqueducts conveying millions of gallons of water daily, magnificent public baths and remarkable sewer systems-one of which, the Cloaca Maxmia, is still in use. Rome spread its plumbing technology throughout many of its far-flung territories as well.



    "Yet, while we may rightfully marvel at the Roman legacy in plumbing, it should be noted that they were motivated by concerns of esthetics, comfort and convenience. They understood very well that bringing fresh water to the masses and disposing of waste made for a more pleasant way of life, but there is little evidence they understood the connection with disease control.



    "Bursting Rome's Bubble: In fact, the magnificence of great city-state diminishes quite a bit when its plumbing systems come under closer scrutiny. Rome sprang up in haphazard fashion, a town of crooked, narrow streets and squalid houses. In its heyday, Rome had a population of over one million, and waste disposal was a definite problem.



    "The water supply of Rome was obtained from ground water and rain water, and in many cases these mixed together. The lowlands of the countryside were swampy marshes which developed into malarial wastelands. The Romans developed underground channels to drain the natural swamps and secure water for irrigation and drinking. Nonetheless, a particular region known as the Pontine Marshes were all but inhabitable during the summertime, until drained during the regime of Benito Mussolini. (Some 40,000 Italians died in a 16th century malaria epidemic.)



    "A luxury toilet in the private houses of the well-to-do was a small, oblong hole in the floor, without a seat - similar to toilets that prevailed in the Far East and other sections of the world even today. A vertical drain connected the toilet to a cesspool below.



    "The great Roman spas accommodated hundreds and even thousands of bathers at a time. But without filtration or circulation systems, the bathers basked in germ-ridden water and the huge pools had to be emptied and refilled daily.

    "In public latrines, a communal bucket of salt water stood close by in which rested a long stick with a sponge tied to one end. The user would cleanse his person with the spongy end and return the stick to the water for the next one to use. The stick later evolved into the shape of a hockey stick, and the source for the expression 'getting hold of the wrong end of the stick.' It also provided an excellent medium for passing along bacteria and the assorted diseases they engendered.



    "Running water for the latrine either was supplied by stone water tanks or else by an aqueduct patterned after the graceful, curved arches made famous by the Roman engineers. Those water experts knew that covering water keeps it cool from the sun and helps prevent the spread of algae.



    "Imperfect though their plumbing knowledge may have been, the Roman Empire still did an admirable job assuring public cleanliness and, inadvertently, health. Rome employed administrators known as aediles to oversee various public works, including coliseum games and the police. They also were in charge of seeing that streets got swept of garbage and streams cleared of visible pollution and debris."

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 20, 2003 - 09:00 am
    I wonder what the Public Health laws were in Ancient Rome?

    Mal

    tooki
    September 20, 2003 - 09:23 am
    These same people who built aqueducts and magnificent baths, who had such inadverently successful sanitation practices, also practiced Divination.

    Here is an abstract of a peper presented at the annual meeting of the American Philosophical Association Classics Section:

    Divination Lives!

    There are about a hundred words pertaining to kinds of divination in one of my old encyclopedias. Here are a few, intended to shock and awe the most rational Justin who seemed not to be aware of these practices.

    Hepatoscopy: Divination from the liver of a freshly sacrificed animal. Extispex: One skilled in divination by inspection of entrails. Haruspex: A diviner or soothsayer.

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 20, 2003 - 09:28 am
    A repeat of Ginny's image of the Baths of Caracalla mentioned in Post #373

    Ginny
    September 20, 2003 - 09:36 am
    And here, in augmentation of Malryn's excellent article above, is a reconstruction (the originals are all over everywhere but I can't find my photos of them at Ostia and Hadrian's Wall) in France of a public latrine. You can see the channel in front of the seats, that had running water at all times and the sponges on the stick (loved that wrong side of the stick ickers) were in the center where they could be reached.

    One other interesting thing is that last year in Rome at the Colosseum the audio tape said that it's now thought that the senators or people of great rank had their own running latrines running along their seats, so they would not have to leave their seats, this of course is astounding information and I don't know how accurate it is, I'm not sure I have ever heard that, but there IS a channel running at the foot of their seats, take THAT one with a grain of salt, these public latrines, however, exist in the original in many places.

    ginny

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 20, 2003 - 09:38 am
    I wonder what they'll say 2500 years from now about the popularity of horoscopes and Tarot cards, reliance on the prophecies in the Book of Revelations in the Bible, predictions of Nostradamus and contemporary soothsayers that exist in this age of science and technology today?

    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 20, 2003 - 09:41 am
    GINNY, please don't pass on that information about running latrines by the seats of senators and high officials. If the word gets out, our taxes will go up so they can be installed.

    Mal

    tropicaltramp
    September 20, 2003 - 09:43 am
    Morning, back. Thank you Justin for your nice greeting. I must admit that my incursion into the Jesuit/Franciscan activities in Western US and Mexico was in a roundabout way, not as a direct primary investigation of history as such "for itself". Nevetheless, it is/was intensive, since it was necessary to accomplish my goal, which was monetary. I started by looking for a group of extremely rich mines that the Jesuits were operating in 1630. They were forced to close them and flee when the general Indian uprising took place. The mines were lost and have since been extensively looked for by literally hundreds of seekers, including the Jesuits themelves. I have successfully concluded that search and am now the legal owner of them. This a long aside story, not necesarily applicable here. Perhaps later?

    As you said, the Indians came under the Spanish law of "Incomiendo", the Indians came with the land and were required to work it in any form that the holder wished, literally as slaves. We must also remember that these were times when the Inquisition was being heavily enforced. People were being burned at the stake, tortured to death, etc for any imagined or reported deviation from church dictated doctrines. A time when it was consdered normal to cut off a hand for stealing, say even a piece of bread. Under these condtions it was normal for the priests to act as their peers were, and so anything that was for the churchs' benefit was expected and normal,including working the Indians to death in the horrible conditions found in many of the mines. At first I was inclined to disgust with their behavior, but then as I investigated further I realized that for their times many were actually considered benevolent. Times and morals change, so I no longer am quick to judge the past in light of our present ones.

    About Religion, state, and atheism, just what "is" religion? As far as I can find out it is a fixation in personal beliefs, whether it is politics, medicine, belief in a God, or non belief in a God. When one tends to impose his/her beliefs upon another to the excluson of any compromise with theirs, it becomes a religion by any defination. By its nature, religion seeks to establish itself as the only way or thing by any means. In the matter of the church, it was necessary to gain ultimate power to further it's cause and power (and of course individual members greed) hence it was more often abusive than benevolent. "Anything for the "religion" was/is morally and legally correct. This doctrine is still in effect today. sigh. Now we have groups attempting to legally tell us if we can believe in this or that, nothing changes.

    As my grandpappy once told me, "son, never judge anyone until you have walked in their moccasins for a while?.

    We, in turn, will be judged by future generations and most likely be found at fault also hehheeh.

    I

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 20, 2003 - 10:01 am
    Hi, TRAMP. It's nice to have you here. Thanks for your contributions to this discussion. We appreciate them. The longer you are with us the more you will see that we are constantly comparing and assessing our own time with what has happened in different cultures in the past, while we try to understand what people thought and felt and how they behaved in times that were not our own. My own feeling is that civilization has not advanced very far from what it was in Ancient times.

    Mal

    tropicaltramp
    September 20, 2003 - 10:11 am
    HI: thank you, be aware before hand, I am a rebel heheh

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 20, 2003 - 10:16 am
    TRAMP, you're not alone in that here, as you will see.

    Mal

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    September 20, 2003 - 12:00 pm
    When I was there two years ago I thought that these types of latrines would long ago have disappeared from modern installation in parks and areas when you are far from your living quarters. I saw signs outside a supermarket and having a great necessity to go, I walk over and lookt things over. Hmmmmmm. Right, just as I thought, the French cannot depart themselves from having "toilettes à pédales" of long long ago meaning litterally "pedal toilets" where you put your feet on a designated spot on the floor and "squat" over a hole on the floor. Sorry about the graphic description.

    The whole installation was newly installed in colors that would put Ikea to shame. Coming out where my friend was waiting, she is a Canadian, she knew by the look on my face that this ancient latrine still served its purpose.

    In other parts of France, this system is still widely used for public latrines.

    Eloïse

    tooki
    September 20, 2003 - 12:19 pm
    Mal, take us on home.

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 20, 2003 - 03:02 pm
    This is what I posted last night from Durant's "Caesar and Christ", Tooki. You wanna talk about law, we'll talk about law!

    "The Twelve Tables effected a double juristic revolution; the publication and secularization of Roman law. Like other codes of the sixth and fifth centuries -- those of Charondas, Zaleucus, Lycurgus, Solon -- they represented a change from uncertain, unwritten custom to definite written law; they were a result of increasing literacy and democracy. The ius civile, or law of citizens, freed itself in these Tables from the ius divinum, or divine law; Rome decided not to be a theocracy. The priestly monopoly was further deflated when the secretary of Appius Claudius the Blind published a calendar of court days (dies fasti -- 'days of utterance'), and a 'formulary' of proper legal procedures, which had till then been known to few but the priests. Secularization took another step when Coruncianus began the first known public instruction in Roman law; from that time onward the lawyer replaced the priest and dominated the mind and life of Rome. Soon the Tables were made the basis of education; till Cicero's day all schoolboys had to learn them by heart, and doubtless they had a share in forming the stern and orderly, litigious and legalistic, Roman soul. Amended and supplemented again and again -- by legislation, praetorial edicts, senatusconsulata, and imperial decrees -- the Twelve Tables remained for nine hundred years the basic law of Rome."
    The lawyer replaced the priest and dominated the mind and life of Rome? Could that happen in our world? Or has it already?

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 20, 2003 - 03:04 pm
    THE TWELVE TABLES

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 20, 2003 - 03:17 pm
    What do you think of this assessment of one of the Roman laws?

    "The law also refers to another very characteristic Roman institution, clientela (patron-client relationship). A patronus (patron) was a powerful man from whom a lower person could seek assistance. The man seeking assistance then became the cliens (client) of the patron. This system whereby citizens of lower social status received assistance from their 'betters' was a very strong bond in Roman society. While Greek city states were frequently rent with disputes between the 'haves' and 'have-nots,' in Rome the latter had someone to turn to for assistance, and whom they would then have an interest in supporting. This institution was one reason why the poorer plebeians never entirely turned against the ruling class (whether patricians or the later patrician-plebeian nobility). It was always better for most people to seek support from 'their' powerful man rather than try to abolish such power altogether. Though there was some looseness in this institution (it was based on tradition rather than law), the relationship tended to become hereditary (i.e., a man would become the client of the family to which his father had been a client), and a high-status Roman (patron) would naturally inherit the clients of his father.

    "The Romans would apply this system in their dealings with foreign entities. Individual foreigners, kings and communities would attach themselves as clients to important Roman magistrates (and their families)."

    Source:

    Interpretation: The Twelve Tables

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 20, 2003 - 03:40 pm
    I found this while searching Dies Fasti.

    "Attributed to Romulus, himself, the Roman calendar originally was determined by the cycles of the moon and the seasons of the agricultural year. The calendar then was nominally ten months long (304 days), beginning in March in the spring and ending in December with the autumn planting. Indeed, one still can recognize the remnants of this early calendar in the numbered names for Quinctilis (July), Sextilis (August), September, October, November, and December. Six months had thirty days and four had thirty-one. The winter months were not counted because there was no agricultural work then.

    "According to Livy (I.19), it was Numa Pompilius, the second king of Rome (715-673 BC), who divided the year into twelve lunar months. Fifty days were added to the calendar and a day taken from each month of thirty days to provide for two new months of twenty-eight days: Januarius (January) at the beginning of the year and Februarius (February) at the end. This was a year of 354 days but, because of the Roman superstition about even numbers, an additional day was added to January to make the calendar 355 days long. Auspiciously, each month had an odd number of days: Martius (March), Maius (May), Quinctilis, and October continued to have thirty-one; the other months, twenty-nine, except for February, which had twenty-eight and was devoted to rites of purification (februa) and expiation appropriate to the last month of the year.

    "Although these legendary beginnings attest to the venerability of the lunisolar calendar of the Roman Republic, its historical origin probably is the publication of a revised calendar by the Decemviri c.450 BC as part of the Twelve Tables, Rome's first code of law. It is likely, too, that the lunar year had been abandoned by then. Cicero mentions a solar eclipse occurring on the Nones of June (June 5). Such an eclipse did take place in 400 BC, but it only can have occurred at the new moon, when it is in conjuction with the sun, and that would have been shortly before the Kalends, when the first day of the month was announced. In 153 BC, the new year was moved from the Ides of March to the Kalends of January (January 1), which marked the beginning of the civil year and newly elected consuls assumed office. (Several years before, Cato, writing about farming, continued to reckon time by the stars and used the civil calendar only for business contracts.)"

    Source:

    Roman Calendar

    Justin
    September 20, 2003 - 03:53 pm
    Ginny: Many thanks for your outstanding post on aquaducts. Your ability to get around in Latin must be a big help to you while visiting the baaaaths.

    Tooki: Your post on divination is appreciated. I will add those thoughts to my baggage. Who knows when, in a conversation about chicken livers, it will be appropriate to discuss divination.

    moxiect
    September 20, 2003 - 06:08 pm
    My mind is befuddled with all this history that I am absorbing, Thanks to you all I am really learning a lot.

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    September 20, 2003 - 08:31 pm
    Late this afternoon after I went out for the evening I received an email from Robby saying that he was OK but the lights were flickering so he wouldn't be able to post in S of C. He spent all this time of the storm at home waiting for it to end. He was not called to go to the shelter, but he was still 'on call'. His telephone line was working. One pine tree broke off on the back of his property but did not damage anything. He was without electricity since Thursday. His neighbors said it was the worst storm they ever had. I guess he is waiting for the power to be stable before he uses the computer.

    I am happy that he is safe and sound and his house was not damaged. He should return here soon.

    Eloïse

    Bubble
    September 21, 2003 - 02:55 am
    Thanks for the news Eloise. It is good to hear when friends are sound and safe. Bubble

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 21, 2003 - 04:58 am
    It was a weird feeling (not the past 2 1/2 days, that was weird enough) but spending all that time primitively having to flush the toilet with buckets of water bailed out of the bathtub and then, coming back to a forum which calls itself Civilization, and finding detailed conversations and descriptions about - - - toilets in one form or another!!

    My electricity was on briefly yesterday, enough for me to get a brief email off to Eloise and then it went off again until this morning (at daylight naturally!) However, I am thankful. On Thursday I cancelled my afternoon patients based on the predictions. It's especially hard for patients suffering from anxiety who want to see me and want to get home simultaneously. Besides the torrential rains had begun. And they came down as if they were out of a gigantic spigot! At about 5 p.m. the rains eased off a bit but the winds began. The electricity went off and at the same time it was getting darker and darker.

    For me, no electricity meant no lights (I had flashlights), no TV (I am not ordinarily a TV watcher but I did want to know the news), no radio (I did not have the sense to have a battery operated radio in the house but from now on I will), no water because the pump is electrically operated (but I had filled the bathtub with water in advance) -- and obviously, no computer. I did have a couple of gallons of water in the refrigerator but of course the refrigerator was not operating. Skip the idea of a microwave oven and my kitchen range is electric so forget that.

    At 7 p.m. it was practically pitch dark outside (ordinarily the sun would still be up) so I decided to go to bed. For those of you new to this forum, you can get a better picture by knowing that except for my indoor cat, Cookie, I live alone.

    Now the wind was definitely rising. The temptation is to use the word "howling" but it was more like a roar. At times I saw lightning flashes but I have no idea if there was any thunder as the sound of the wind was too loud. I had decided that the bedroom was the safest room in the house. I have a two-story Cape Cod cottage and the bedroom is on the first floor but in the back of the house. About 15 feet in front of the house are two very large beautiful maple trees. My thought was that if one (or both) of them came crashing down, they would demolish the second floor in the front of the house but that would be enough to cushion the blow before it reached the bedroom.

    I stayed there with my clothes on because I was on call as a volunteer Red Cross mental health provider. I had no idea how I would be able to travel the 25 miles to the shelter if I was paged but decided to figure that out if the call came. No call came and except for waking up briefly during the night and hearing that monster wind, I truly slept soundly. I am a true believer of the first line of the Serenity Prayer.

    To be continued.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 21, 2003 - 05:31 am
    I woke up around 7:30 a.m., later than my usual 5:30 a.m. but it was only starting to get light. There was still wind but not like it had been. It rained intermittently -- sometimes fairly hard and sometimes not. I should add at this point that my phone was operating throughout this situation. In my opinion, giant kudos should be given to the various phone companies through the nation. In my area, the phone lines are underground and I believe this is happening in most places. Although I had not been paged, I checked my voice mail in the event the R.C. had left a message for me in that fashion. No such message although there were messages from patients asking if I was seeing patients on Friday. In the middle of the day I was paged, answered it and was given the official message "the shelter is closed." I am still on call, however, as mental problems often arise after the physical problems have been taken care of.

    I called all the patients, cancelling out all the appointments for Friday. It turned out that this was the wisest thing to do as I learned later that the roads everywhere were littered, if not actually blocked, by trees of varying sizes. As it got lighter, I looked out the back window and saw that a large pine tree (trunk diameter of perhaps 14-16 inches) lying across the back lawn. As the weather cleared and I went out to look, I saw that the wind had split the top part of the tree off about 5' above the ground.

    It dawned on me on Friday that I had been given a "gift" of time. No computer -- no radio -- no TV -- no patients -- I had been wondering when I would find the time to do some of my piled up paperwork. Now Mother Nature had made this possible. That's how Friday was spent. As far as eating was concerned, I am a 95% vegetarian so I had plenty of fruits and salads in the house. No stove was necessary. I had plenty of fluids. Concerning flushing the toilet (a topic which seems to be of great interest to you people!) I just poured two buckets of water taken from the bathtub into the toilet tank and -- VOILA! -- it flushed just like homes of "civilized" people. Back to basics. I had food, shelter, and clothing. What else could I want? I was watching my fridge getting warmer but except for three "frozen dinners" I had put in there, I was not worried.

    There was no electricity throughout Friday and so I still didn't know what was going on. I should add that while I have a garage, I park the car outside each day when I get home. Prior to the storm, however, I pulled it into the garage in case a tree should fall. On Friday, I pulled it back out of the garage and -- EUREKA! -- it dawned on me that I DO have a battery operated radio -- in the car. So I listened to the latest and realized how terrible it had been in various areas. The daylight came and went and I still had no electricity so it was back to early bed again.

    Saturday afternoon the electricity came on and I quickly sent an email to Eloise. My hunch was correct as it went off again and didn't come on until this Sunday morning.

    So there I am (all nicely showered and shaved) and I appreciate all your concerns.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 21, 2003 - 05:49 am
    It was a weird feeling (not the past 2 1/2 days, that was weird enough) but spending all that time primitively having to flush the toilet with buckets of water bailed out of the bathtub and then, coming back to a forum which calls itself Civilization, and finding detailed conversations and descriptions about - - - toilets in one form or another!!

    My electricity was on briefly yesterday, enough for me to get a brief email off to Eloise and then it went off again until this morning (at daylight naturally!) However, I am thankful. On Thursday I cancelled my afternoon patients based on the predictions. It's especially hard for patients suffering from anxiety who want to see me and want to get home simultaneously. Besides the torrential rains had begun. And they came down as if they were out of a gigantic spigot! At about 5 p.m. the rains eased off a bit but the winds began. The electricity went off and at the same time it was getting darker and darker.

    For me, no electricity meant no lights (I had flashlights), no TV (I am not ordinarily a TV watcher but I did want to know the news), no radio (I did not have the sense to have a battery operated radio in the house but from now on I will), no water because the pump is electrically operated (but I had filled the bathtub with water in advance) -- and obviously, no computer. I did have a couple of gallons of water in the refrigerator but of course the refrigerator was not operating. Skip the idea of a microwave oven and my kitchen range is electric so forget that.

    At 7 p.m. it was practically pitch dark outside (ordinarily the sun would still be up) so I decided to go to bed. For those of you new to this forum, you can get a better picture by knowing that except for my indoor cat, Cookie, I live alone.

    Now the wind was definitely rising. The temptation is to use the word "howling" but it was more like a roar. At times I saw lightning flashes but I have no idea if there was any thunder as the sound of the wind was too loud. I had decided that the bedroom was the safest room in the house. I have a two-story Cape Cod cottage and the bedroom is on the first floor but in the back of the house. About 15 feet in front of the house are two very large beautiful maple trees. My thought was that if one (or both) of them came crashing down, they would demolish the second floor in the front of the house but that would be enough to cushion the blow before it reached the bedroom.

    I stayed there with my clothes on because I was on call as a volunteer Red Cross mental health provider. I had no idea how I would be able to travel the 25 miles to the shelter if I was paged but decided to figure that out if the call came. No call came and except for waking up briefly during the night and hearing that monster wind, I truly slept soundly. I am a true believer of the first line of the Serenity Prayer.

    To be continued.

    Robby

    Bubble
    September 21, 2003 - 05:51 am
    WOW! Just like Robinson Crusoe! welcome back!



    We do the filled bathtub + buckets near it trick every time there is a water failure and the toilet tank does not get replenish. Apparently you never suffer those in that civilized country!



    I think that if I had had your # in my hand in Brussels I would have called you for an impromptu consultation about anxiety and grief management. One of us was lucky...



    We never hear about hurricane in the ancient times? But I suppose they are reserved for the new world only. Warning would have come from the liver of chickens, no doubt and you Robby would have missed being able to read that since you are a vegetarian.

    Bubble

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 21, 2003 - 06:06 am
    Bubble:--Regarding hurricanes being reserved for the new world -- they always seem to cross the Atlantic from East to West. This has made me much more aware of global weather. How a circular windstorm off the coast of Africa can rip up a tree in my backyard in Virginia!

    Robby

    tooki
    September 21, 2003 - 06:10 am
    Robby, some of us are pleased that you are showered and shaved because we are so enamored of the wonders of water, or lack thereof.

    I believe we are somewhere beginning discussion of the Roman soul, "stern and orderly, litigious and legalistic, Roman soul," what I think of as dogged and determined. Interestingly, nowhere do the Durants mention logical, a quality the Greeks possessed.

    Mal's post 389, an explication of the Twelve Tables, refers to the power relationship existing between plebs and pubs. I think Mafia relationships were based on this. Such power relationships endured over the centuries.

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    September 21, 2003 - 06:41 am
    Tooki, can you explain to me how the Greeks possessed perhaps greater logical qualities that that of the Romans and how they could effectively apply those qualities in the military, economic and social fabric of their lives. Is it possible to govern a nation only on logic and never on emotional impulses? Does anybody have the just right amount of logic?

    When I think about a war, is it ever decided upon logically or emotionally?

    Eloïse

    Shasta Sills
    September 21, 2003 - 07:15 am
    Robby, that was a wonderful description of the hurricane. Was this your first storm? Here, in the Gulf states, we get these storms all the time, so we go through this ordeal repeatedly. I live far enough inland that I don't get the worst of them usually. But I have relatives in New Orleans, and I always worry about them. I think there are more hurricanes that come up through the gulf than across the Atlantic. When one of them misses us and heads up the Atlantic, we breathe a sigh of relief. But I also have relatives in Virginia and I worry about them too.

    Ginny
    September 21, 2003 - 07:20 am
    Welcome back, Robby!~!! We are delighted to see you here and safe, what a wonderful description, I felt almost there!! So glad you're OK!!

    Thank you, Justin, I appreciate that, very much.

    Thank you Eloise, I had no idea of that, it's amazing what we can learn here in this discussion, who knew that continued even up to today!!

    And now our Robby is back and you are discussing The Twelve Tables, did you know (is this still true?) that up until recently the state of Louisiana used Julian Law, written by Julius Caesar, so much so that attorneys practicing there had to be up on it, is that still true? It was 23 years ago, I wonder!!!

    ginny

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 21, 2003 - 07:21 am
    Shasta:--Many decades ago (I believe it was in the 50s) I was camping with family in the Adirondacks and the park rangers told us to get out because of an approaching hurricane. And then there was the time we were camping in New Jersey and were nearly caught by a forest fire. But I'm sure others here have similar stories.

    Give me a moment to organize my thoughts and in a short time I will get back to Durant's remarks.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 21, 2003 - 07:47 am
    I'm glad you're all right, Robby. Hurricane Isabel did far less damage here in the Triangle area of NC than Hurricane Fran and the ice storm we had last December when we had no electricity (or heat!) for 7 1/2 days. Except for not having a battery-operated radio, you did everything right. Filling the bathtub is an excellent idea. I learned that long ago from storms we had in New England when I was growing up.

    Once, when I was living in Florida, there was a severe tropical storm that left everything flooded, including my street. My property was several feet above the street, but I was still worried. I packed a bag and put boots out in case I would be forced to leave; then went in and started to fill the bathtub. To my surprise there was a knock at the front door of my trailer. It was a man I liked who owned a mobile home business west of St. Augustine and a vehicle that could go through water. He knew I lived alone and had come to see if I was all right, knowing full well what can happen to mobile homes in bad storms, especially on Anastasia Island a mile from the ocean, as my trailer was. He left after determining that I was okay and telling me he'd make sure I got out safely if I had to. Then I remembered the bathtub. The only flooding I had during that incident was what I created myself in my bathroom by forgetting to turn the bathtub water off.

    What I want to learn about the Romans is what part religion had in their civilization. We recall that toward the end of the Greek civilization there was a deep conflict between religion and philosophy which religion, myth and emotion won. That combined with a desire to rule the world, as they knew it, led to the downfall of Greece, as I see it. What were the factors that led to the downfall of Rome? Perhaps we'll be able to recognize them early after learning about Greece.

    Mal

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 21, 2003 - 07:58 am
    Once again you folks have proved that the strength of this discussion group lies in the participants. Thank you for keeping the momentum going! Let us now move on from "The beginnings of Roman Law" to "The Conquest of Italy" (see GREEN quotes in the Heading).

    "Rome ruled only 350 square miles -- equivalent to a space nineteen by nineteen miles. While Lars Porsena advanced upon her, many of the neighboring communities that had been subjected by her kings resumed their liberty and formed a Latin League to withstand Rome.

    "Rome was a medley of independent tribes or cities, each with its own government and dialect -- in the north the Ligures, Gauls, Umbrians, Etruscans, and Sabines -- to the south the Latins, Volscians, Samnites, Lucanians, Bruttians -- along the western and southern coasts Greek colonists in Cumae, Naples, Pompeii, Paestum, Locru, Rhegium, Crotona, Metapontum, Tarentum.

    "Rome was at the center of them all, strategically placed for expansion, but perilously open to attack from all sides at once. It was her salvation that her enemies seldom united against her. In 505, while she was at war with the Sabines, a powerful Sabine clan -- the Claudian gens -- came over to Rome and was granted citizenship on favorable terms.

    "In 449 the Sabines were defeated. By 290 all their territory was annexed to Rome, and by 250 they had received the full Roman franchise."

    Many tribes here to examine. Is there a message contained here?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 21, 2003 - 08:52 am
    Click HERE to learn about Lars Porsena.

    Robby

    tropicaltramp
    September 21, 2003 - 08:53 am
    Morning Robby, fascinating description. Enjoyed it, then it occurred to me that those same conditions would have been considered more or less normal or even luxurious for the times that we are discussing - including the aforementioned err John? Escusado, Bidet???? etc etc. Times have changed, it is difficult for us to realize that even the poorest of us live far better than all but the mightest or richest of those days. Thanks for bringing this home to us.

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 21, 2003 - 08:55 am
    Click HERE to learn about Lars Porsena.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 21, 2003 - 08:57 am
    Click HERE to learn about the Latin League.

    Robby

    moxiect
    September 21, 2003 - 09:02 am
    Welcome Back Robbie. So glad you weathered Isabel.

    HubertPaul
    September 21, 2003 - 10:36 am
    Eloise:"........When I think about a war, is it ever decided upon logically or emotionally?"

    decided upon?....emotionally, lust for power and greed; well, most of the time.

    Robby, you mentioned you were camping at times. You should have kept your coleman lantern and coleman stove:>)

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 21, 2003 - 10:37 am
    Clicking on this MAP and then clicking onto "338 B.C." gives an idea of how small an area in Italy Rome was in the time period we are now discussing.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 21, 2003 - 10:44 am
    Hubert:--When I camped, I had no Coleman stove and no Coleman lantern. I have never owned either. I cooked over an open campfire and used flashlights until the fire was strong enough to give light.

    Robby

    Justin
    September 21, 2003 - 01:47 pm
    Robby: Welcome back from the whirlwinds. Your clever solution for toilet dryness will remain with me till needed in California. Those interested in toilets, may enjoy Life magazine's retrospective on American outhouses. It appeared in the magazine some years ago. Their catalogue will show volume and issue.

    The maps that appear in 413 express well the expansion and contraction that occured in the Roman adventure. Reference to these maps may be made again and again as we advance along with Durant.

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 21, 2003 - 01:52 pm
    Thank you, Justin. We'll keep Post 413 in mind as we watch the expansion and contraction of the Roman Empire. Perhaps this question might get us ahead of ourselves, but just how does an Empire "contract?"

    Robby

    Shasta Sills
    September 21, 2003 - 03:40 pm
    Doesn't it contract when it becomes over-extended and cannot hold what it has gained? The outer limits of the empire lack sufficient forces to maintain itself against invasion.

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 21, 2003 - 04:46 pm
    Here is a photo of the beautiful landscape found in the LAND OF THE UMBRIANS.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 21, 2003 - 05:07 pm
    Here is one version of the DEFEAT OF THE VOLSCIANS by the early Romans.

    Robby

    Justin
    September 21, 2003 - 06:54 pm
    Robby; Shasta knows how an empire contracts. The Roman empire lasted 1790 years before the final contraction but it occurred on May 19, 1453 when the Turks took Constantinople. There was little left for the Romans but the Capitoline hill and even that piece of land was in question. But lets not start at the end. That's like reading the last chapter of a murder mystery to see who done it. Let's enjoy the adventure from the beginning.

    tooki
    September 21, 2003 - 07:22 pm
    We can probably see each of these art works individually.

    Martial Arts

    It's sort of fatiguing, isn't it?

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 22, 2003 - 04:34 am
    "Insatiate and insecure, Rome offered the cities of Magna Graecia a choice between alliance under Roman hegemony and war. Preferring Rome to further absorption by the 'barbarian' (i.e. Italian) tribes who were multiplying around and within them, Thurii, Locri, and Crotona consented. Probably they, too, like the towns of Latium, were troubed by class war, and received Roman garrisons as a protection of property owners against a rising plebs.

    "Tarentum was obstinate, and called over to her aid Pyrrhus, King of Epirus. This gallant warrior, fevered with memories of Achilles and Alexander, crossed the Adriatic with an Epirote force, defeated the Romans at Heraclea (280), and gave an adjective to European languages by mourning the costliness of his victory.

    "All the Greek cities of Italy now joined him, and the Lucanians, Bruttians, and Samnites declared themselves his allies. He dispatched Cineas to Rome with offers of peace, and freed his 2000 Roman prisoners on their word to return if Rome preferred war. The Senate was about to make terms when old blind Appius Claudius, who had long since retired from public life, had himself carried to the senate house and demanded that Rome should never make peace with a foreign army on Italian soil. The Senate sent back to Pyrrhus the prisoners whom he had released, and resumed the war.

    "The young king won another victory. Then, disgusted with the sloth and cowardice of his allies,l he sailed with his depleted army to Sicily. He relieved the Carthaginian siege of Syracuse and drove the Carthaginians from nearly all their possessions on the island. His imperious rule offended the Sicilian Greeks, who thought they could have freedom without order and courage. They withdrew their support, and Pyrrhus returned to Italy, saying of Sicily, 'What a prize I leave to be fought for by Carthage and Rome!'

    "His army met the Romans at Beneventum, where for the first time he suffered defeat (275). The light-armed and mobile maniples proved superior to the unwieldy phalanxes, and began a new chapter in military history. Pyrrhus appealed to his Italian allies for new troops. They refused, doubting his fidelity and persistence. He returned to Epirus, and died an adventurer's death in Greece.

    "In that same year (272) Milo betrayed Tarentum to Rome. Soon all the Greek cities yielded, the Samnites sullenly surrendered, and Rome was at last, after two centuris of war, the ruler of Italy."

    Do you folks believe, like the Sicilian Greeks, that one can have freedom without order and courage?

    Robby

    Shasta Sills
    September 22, 2003 - 09:19 am
    That first sculpture in Tooki's link has always been a favorite of mine, because the expression on his face is so sad. So blank and bewildered. All that brutal fighting he has done has probably injured his brain. He hasn't a clue what is going on. All he knows how to do is keep on using his fists. To me, this sculpture describes what brutal violence does to a human. It dehumanizes him.

    Tramp will love Robby's link about the defeat of the Volscians. The paranormal is his specialty.

    Justin
    September 22, 2003 - 12:57 pm
    Freedom is disorder. I think the Sicilian Greeks were right in that thought. One can have freedom without out order. When order appears freedom diminishes. Courage, on the other hand, is essential to freedom. One must be prepared to take issue with those who prefer a quiet, orderly life.

    Justin
    September 22, 2003 - 01:38 pm
    Tooki gave us so many works at once it is difficult to place them all in our current context. The "Boxer" is universal and so too, in a way, is the "Dying Gaul". These pieces are largely Roman copies of Hellenistic Greek sculptures. Some. of course, were done by Greek slaves for family sarcophigi. These all tend to be deep reliefs with early signs of chiaroscuro. Battle themes were popular as were athletics. Two works are outstanding examples of Hellenistic reality- both in the round. Shasta spoke of the "Boxer" and how it touched her. I will speak of the "Dying Gaul".

    The "Dying Gaul" was done in 240BCE by Greeks at Pergamon. It was originally a bronze representing a Gaulish casualty of the wars Attalus of Pergamon fought against the barbarian Gauls. The figure is realistic, historical, life size, and "on stage". Those of us who read "Greece" will recall the idealism of the classic period and the initial effort to show movement with athletes and warriors. The "Dying Gaul" is in the tradition of the Aegina "Fallen Warrior" but it represents a great advance in the direction of realism.

    The Gaul is dying from a chest wound that bleeds. He is slowly losing strenth. When his right arm , now trembling, gives way, he will fall dead upon his shield. It is an image of explicit action.

    Only Roman copies of the work survive. They are marble and life size. One is in the Capitoline Museo. Another, which surprised me once, is in the garden at Versailles. I came upon it unexpectedly. The implications of it's life size were clear. One can reach out and touch it and feel it's sensitivity. The "Dying Gaul" represents the war wounded to me-the man of courage.The man who tried and is now dying.

    tooki
    September 22, 2003 - 01:47 pm
    The Durants say, "...the light armed and mobile maniples proved superior to the unwieldly phalanxes, and began a new chapter in military history."

    Here, then, is more than you may want to know about how mobile maniples operate.



    I agree with your view of that sculpture, Shasta. I find it to be one of the most tragic faces in sculpture.

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 22, 2003 - 02:53 pm
    The link below leads you to a page which is only one of a huge website. Scroll down to the green table on the right. Each entry in a blue font on that table is a link to another page.

    Topography of Ancient Rome

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 22, 2003 - 02:58 pm
    It's too bad I didn't find this earlier.

    The Aqueducts of Rome by Sextus Julius Frontinus

    tooki
    September 22, 2003 - 04:21 pm
    To Justin the Dying Gaul "represents war wounded - the man of courage."

    To Shasta the Boxer "describes brutal violence as dehumanizing."

    For Tooki the Boxer has a "tragic face."

    Somehow I find Dying Gaul less striking than the Boxer. I have never seen either one in actuality, only virtually in "The Museum Without Walls." Do you suppose I would feel differently about either one were I to see them really?

    Ginny
    September 22, 2003 - 05:42 pm
    Malryn, what a fabulous find, and I loved this part of it:


    101. "Furthermore, inasmuch as the superintendents of streets and those in charge of the distribution of grain occupy a fourth part of the year in fulfilling their State duties, the water-commissioners likewise shall adjudicate (for a like period) in private and State causes."

    Furthermore . . . State causes.

    1. Bennett is clearly in error here. He seems to have been led astray by "vacare + dative", which can mean "to have the time to do something", but certainly never means "to be required to do something"; in fact, speaking of public offices, the impersonal use of "vacare" means to leave the office vacant.

    2. Clemens Herschel's English translation, based on the same Latin reading, provides yet a third quite different translation:



    Further, that the water commissioners, inasmuch as it will take one quarter of the year to fulfil their State duties by attending also to the superintendence of streets and of grain distribution, shall be free from adjudicating in private or State causes.

    3. Herschel too errs. Misled apparently by his understanding of "fungantur", he takes the passage to mean that the water commissioners cumulate the offices of street (ambiguously and/or) grain distribution commissioners. This isn't true; at best, O. F. Robinson, in Ancient Rome: City Planning and Administration (Routledge, New York, 1992), p158, speaks of such an amalgamation of the offices of the grain distribution and water commissioner as being merely a possibility, and first attested only under Commodus or Septimius Severus, i.e., 80 to 100 years after Frontinus.

    4. Bailly's French edition, based on a Latin reading not significantly differing from Loeb's, yet translates this passage very differently also from Bennett:

    It was also decreed that, since the superintendents of streets and of grain distribution exercised their functions for a quarter of the year, water-commissioners would during that time judge no case, neither private nor public.

    Bailly leaves us hanging, failing to connect the water commissioners with the others: why should the terms of office of the latter affect the judicial capacity of the former?

    6. Here is my own suggestion:

    Further, just as the streets and grain distribution commissioners spend a quarter of the year in fulfilling their State duties, so too shall the water commissioners during that time judge no case, neither private nor public.

    7. I believe that all Frontinus is saying here is that the office of water commissioner was statutorily placed on the same footing as those of the other parallel offices: during their quarter's tenure, they were to work exclusively on their water duties.



    My translation retains the theoretical ambiguity of the Latin in one minor respect: that the office of streets commissioner and that of grain distribution commissioner might be cumulated or amalgamated. That wasn't true, of course; Frontinus wrote with such apparent ambiguity because he and his readers knew it wasn't and it wouldn't occur to them that anyone might mean that.



    What a gift to find that right in the middle of the translation, it shows you what Latin translators go thru (and probably explain why they are often so stubborn!) ahahahaha

    Love it!

    ginny

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 22, 2003 - 06:05 pm
    How wonderful that the Host of the entire Books & Literature section can't resist posting in "Caesar and Christ."

    Sh-h-h-h -- don't tell anyone, Ginny, but tomorrow Hannibal enters the scene!

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 22, 2003 - 06:13 pm
    "Rome's colonies served many purposes. They relieved unemployment, the pressure of population upon the means of subsistence, and consequent class strife in Rome. They acted as garrisons or loyal nuclei amid disaffected subjects, provided outposts and outlets for Roman trade, and raised additional food for hungry mouths in the capital. Conquests in Italy were completed with the plow soon after they had been begun by the sword.

    "In these ways hundreds of Italian towns that still live today received their foundation or the Romanization. The Latin language and culture were spread throughout a peninsula still largely polyglot and barbarous, and Italy was slowly forged into a united state. The first step had been taken in a political synthesis brutal in execution, majestic in result.

    "But in Corsica, Sardinia, Sicily, and Africa, closing the western Mediterranean to Roman trade, and imprisoning Italy in her own seas, stood a power older and richer than Rome."

    All the above transpired in the period 508-264 B.C. Any thoughts before Durant moves us forward?

    Robby

    Justin
    September 22, 2003 - 07:08 pm
    Yes, Robby, I wish Ginny would give us some of the history of the origins of the Latin language as a prelude to the Roman advance in the world.It is the basis of so many languages in use today and I know it did not just appear whole cloth. We know that semitic languages were active at the time. We know that Greeks thought anyone who did not speak Greek was a barbarian. But where does Latin come from?

    Justin
    September 22, 2003 - 07:32 pm
    Sad news. Losses at the museum in Bagdad were minor compared to the losses experienced daily at archeological sites in Iraq. These sites are unprotected (over a thousand)and local looters are active because fragments have value on the black market and the local people have no other means of support. National Geographic this month reports on the work of five archeologists who are investigating the effects of looting. So many of these sites are sites we have visited along with Durant.

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 22, 2003 - 07:38 pm
    Yes, Justin. I guess that such losses are much more meaningful to those of us here who went through "Our Oriental Heritage." Those people in Iraq are "us."

    Robby

    Justin
    September 22, 2003 - 10:51 pm
    The "Boxer" was sculpted by Appolonius in the first century BCE, about two centuries after the "Dying Gaul". Helenism reached it peak in realism with the "Dying Gaul". But that peak was sustained into the Augustan period and while the "Boxer" is not in action it expresses potential movement, for the body is at rest. The figure may be seated in his corner, listening to his trainer, waiting for the bout to start. I hadn't thought about this before but the position of the Boxer's head suggests that his attention is diverted. Art historians have always ascribed that characteristic to the sculptures of Bernini who worked one and a half millennia later.

    Boxing in Greece was an athletic contest. The head and face of the opponent was the primary target. The leather bindings were in place to protect the hands not to make the blows more damaging. The bout ended when an opponent could not or chose not to respond.

    Boxing in Rome was a gladiatorial contest. The leather bindings were dotted with metal studs and with spikes to make the blows more damaging. The contest ended when an opponent was killed.

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 23, 2003 - 04:10 am
    Hannibal Against Rome

    264-202 B.C.

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 23, 2003 - 04:23 am
    "A fleet of Phoenician merchant vessels plied betwen Sidon, Tyre, and Byblus, at one end of the Mediterranean, and Tartessus, at the mouth of Guadalquivir, on the other. Since such voyages could not then be made without many stops, and the southern shores of the Mediterranean provided the shortest and safest route, the Phoenicians established intermediate posts and trading stations on the African coast at Leptis Magna (now Lebda), Hadrumetum (Sousse), Utica (Utique), Hippo Diarrhytus (Bizerte), Hippo Regius (Bone), and even beyond Gibraltar at Lixus (south of Tangier).

    "The Semitic settlers at these posts married some of the natives and bribed the rest to peace. About 813 B.C. a new group of colonists, perhaps from Phoenicia, perhaps from expanding Utica, built their homes upon a promontory ten miles northwest of the modern Tunis. The narrow peninsula could be easily defended, and the land, watered by the Betradas (Medjerda) River, was so fertile that it quickly recovered from repeatd devastation.

    "Classic tradition ascribed the founding of the city to Elissa, or Dido, daughter of the king of Tyre. Her husband having been slain by her brother, she had sailed with other adventurous souls to Africa.

    "Her settlement was called Kart-hadasht -- Newtown -- to distingish it from Utica. The Greeks transformed the name into Karchedon, the Romans into Carthage. The Latins gave the name Africa to the region around Carthage and Utica, and followed the Greeks in calling its Semitic population Poeni -- i.e. Phoenicians. The sieges of Tyre by Shalmaneser, Nebuchadrezzar, and Alexander drove many wealthy Tyrians to Africa.. Most of them went to Carthage, and made it a new center of Phoenician trade.

    "Carthage grew in power and splendor as Tyre and Sidon declined."

    Lots to sink our teeth into here!

    Robby

    tooki
    September 23, 2003 - 06:31 am
    While waiting for her contribution, perhaps you'd like to glance at this brief history of the Latin language, its spread, and role in civilizing Europe.

    Latin Lives!

    To see other aspects of the Latin language, scroll up and down.

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 23, 2003 - 06:36 am
    Pictures of Ancient Carthage

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 23, 2003 - 07:04 am
    Dido and Aeneas mosaic, Roman

    Dido and Aeneas mosaic, Roman

    Dido and Aeneas, Medieval

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 23, 2003 - 07:05 am
    Dido on the Funeral Pyre

    Dido building Carthage, Turner 1815

    Dido bidding farewell to Aeneas, Lorrain

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 23, 2003 - 08:57 am
    Cassio Dio Roman History, Fragments Book XI up to Hannibal

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 23, 2003 - 09:03 am
    Cassio Dio Roman History, Fragments Book XII

    Shasta Sills
    September 23, 2003 - 10:07 am
    The site about the Latin language is interesting. Latin was brought to Italy in 1000 BC by a group of Indo-European immigrants from Northern Europe. I wonder if that means it was already a fully-developed form of Latin. I suppose there is no record of the origins of the language prior to that.

    I liked those mosaics of Dido too. Justin will be horrified if I say I thought they were cute. The figures are so lively and colorful and almost funny.

    kiwi lady
    September 23, 2003 - 12:29 pm
    Hello everyone

    I had 277 posts to read. My book still has not arrived so I mailed B&N yesterday - they tracked it for me and its due to arrive around Oct 2. I am disappointed. It looks to me like I paid for airmail postage and the second hand dealer has sent it by sea.

    Some comments so far.

    Justin - Before this discussion even started I was thinking how events of today reminded me of Rome. I think I even posted my thoughts in the political discussions. Last year I read a lot on Rome.

    Water reticulation- From my reading the Romans did have an obsession with bathing and bodily cleanliness. The aqueducts certainly were a wonderful feat of engineering. I read about one system which ran for over 20 miles up hill and down dale. Water pressure from the source would have pushed it up hill. The origin must have been on a higher elevation for this system to have worked however.

    Latin is of course the root of the English language. When I was a kid Latin was still being used for prescriptions by doctors. My cousin had to learn latin at school and at University as he had decided on medicine as a career. The classics have had a renaissance at some of our private schools in recent years. I don't know of any public schools in our area who teach Latin as part of the curriculum.

    Trevor - Liked your post!

    I can't download from all the numerous links everyone provides as this old computer is just too slow. I would be sitting here all day just in this discussion if I did attempt to unload all of them. I do try and look at selected ones however.

    Eloise - French public toilets. My family have all been horrified when they saw these toilets for the first time. What do those of us with bad athritis do? I wonder why these toilets are still in vogue in France?

    Does History repeat itself YES! YES! YES! Why do we never learn!

    Carolyn

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 23, 2003 - 02:09 pm
    Carolyn:--I'm sorry you will be without your book for another week or so but I hope you are using the periodically-changing GREEN quotes in the Heading to keep you alongside us.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 23, 2003 - 02:11 pm
    Has anyone here visited some of those North African cities, especially Tunis?

    Robby

    Shasta Sills
    September 23, 2003 - 02:18 pm
    Carolyn, when my sister went to Paris last year, she came back complaining about the primitive plumbing. I told her she was supposed to look at the art, not the plumbing. She said she didn't understand why a sophistocated people like the French couldn't do a better job with their plumbing.

    I was surprised to learn that 60% of the English language derives from Latin. I knew it was a lot but I didn't realize it was that much.

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 23, 2003 - 03:21 pm
    This LINK will give you photos of both present-day Tunis and ruins of ancient Carthage. Click onto the small photos for enlargements.

    I had three years of H.S. Latin and although my knowledge of it doesn't equal that of Ginny or others here, it has helped me over the years to understand English words I never saw before.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 23, 2003 - 03:33 pm
    "The strengthened city drove the African natives farther and farther inland, ceased to pay tribute to them, exacted tribute from them, and used them as slaves and serfs in its homes and fields. Large estates took form, some with 20,000 men. In the hands of the practical Phoenicians agriculture became a science and an industry, which the Carthaginian Mago summarized in a famous manual. Irrigated with canals, the soil flowered into gardens, cornfields, vineyards, and orchards of olives, pomegranates, pears, cherries, and figs. Horses and cattle, sheep and goats, were bred. Asses and mules were the beasts of burden, and the elephant was one of many domesticated animals.

    "Urban industry was relatively immature, except for metalwork. The Carthaginians, like their Asiatic forebears, preferred to trade what others made. They led their pack mules east and west and across the Sahara to find elephants, ivory, gold, or slaves. Their immense galleys carried goods to and from a hundred ports between Asia and Britain, for they refused to turn back, like most other mariners, at the Pillars of Hercules.

    "It was presumably they who, about 490 B.C., financed Hanno's voyage of exploration 2600 miles down the Atlantic coast of Africa, and the voyage of Himilco along the northern shores of Europe. Though their coinage was undistinguished, they were apparently the first to issue the equivalent of a paper currency -- leather strips stamped with signs of value, and accepted throughout the Carthaginian realm."

    Britain!! Coasts of Africa!!

    Robby

    Justin
    September 23, 2003 - 03:39 pm
    Shasta: I thought the Mosaics were cute too, especially Dido's tush. Aeneas has just lost his wife and child in the escape from Troy. He has his father Anchises on his shoulders and turns about to say " hurry up wife", and discovers she is no longer behind him. A search does not turn up the woman and the child so Aeneas must leave or be killed along with his papa and his companions. When he stops at Dido's palace, enroute to hell and to Italy he finds her too tempting to resist. His stay with her is idylic until he must continue his journey. As his ship pulls out of the harbor he sees the smoke of the funeral pyre.

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 23, 2003 - 04:58 pm
    "The African coast -- except Utica -- was conquered from Cyrenaica to Gibraltar and beyond. Tartessus, Gades (Cadiz), and other Spanish towns were captured, and Carthage grew wealthy from the gold, silver, iron, and copper of Spain.

    "It took the Balearic Islands, and reached out even to Madeira. It conquered Malta, Sardinia, Corsica, and the western half of Sicily. It treated these subject lands with varying degrees of severity, charging them annual tribute, conscripting their population for its army, and strictly controlling their foreign relations and their trade. In return it gave them military protection, local self-government, and economic stability.

    "We may judge the wealth of these dependencies from the fact that the town of Leptis Minor paid 365 talents ($1,314,000) a year into the Carthaginian treasury."

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 23, 2003 - 05:08 pm
    Here is a map showing the CARTHAGINIAN EMPIRE exactly as it was described in words.

    Robby

    Justin
    September 23, 2003 - 06:42 pm
    There are three trading giants active at this time in the third century BCE- Greece, Carthage, Rome. Carthage has moved in on the Greeks on Sicily and on the Romans on Corsica and Sardinia. A battle for control of trade in the Med is inevitable.

    What is surprising to me is that the Greeks played the lesser role in the battle while the Romans carried on the battle for almost two centuries. Perhaps the role of the Greeks was the lesser because they and their trading colonies were at the Asiatic end of the Med while the Romans were closer to the Atlantic end of the Med. Although the Greeks and the Carthaginians met head to head on Sicily, it is noticeable from the map that only one half of Sicily is Carthaginian. Syracuse is shown as Carthaginian at this time- the third century.

    One of the disadvantages of focusing on the Greeks, then on the Romans, is that we do not see the interaction between these forces at a time when we know all were in play at this time. What are the Persians doing? Alex did not make them disappear. They are still an Asiatic threat. I would like to see a world view of the impending action we call the Punic Wars.

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 24, 2003 - 03:27 am
    Durant will be covering all three Punic Wars.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 24, 2003 - 03:40 am
    Here is a MAP showing the geographical relationship of Tunis (Carthage), Rome, Corsica, and Sardinia.

    Robby

    Ginny
    September 24, 2003 - 05:29 am
    Oh jeepers I LOVE Hannibal you WOULD start Hannibal in grape season, Robby!!

    Justin, you are too kind, here’s a brief history of the Latin Language, courtesy of the Oxford Companion to Classical Literature (the Bible for the Classics). I do recall taking a course in the development of the Latin language and it was very complex and involved, this seems more cut and dry, and then there’s a breakdown similar to what Tooki already provided with some emphasis on the different colloquial tangents, perhaps?



    Latin was the language of the city of Rome and the territory of Latium to the south; it spread with the power of Rome until it became the language of most of western Europe. It is known to have been one of several related dialects which formed the Italic group in the Indo-European family of languages, but it is not at all close to Greek, although the latter is also Indo-European. Its nearest Italic relative is Faliscan, and it is markedly different from the other main branch of Italic, Osco-Umbrian (Oscan was spoken in the Samnite territories, and Umbrian in central Italy to the north-east of Rome; both are known only from inscriptions, proper names, and the writings of early grammarians.)

    It is possible that both Latin and Osco-Umbrian in central Italy developed separately out of one common Italic Language, but it is perhaps more likely that Latin resulted from the fusion of one Italic-speaking people with a pre-existing population of Latium. Exactly how and when Italic speakers came into Italy is not clear, nor are the reasons for the development of their different dialects.

    Other languages spoken in Italy in early historical times were Greek in the south, Celtic in the north, and the Non Indo-European language of Etruria, all of which exercised some influence upon Latin.

    The Latin alphabet seems not to heave been derived directly from the Greek but to be partly of Etrucsan origin.

    In the course of its long history, Latin has undergone considerable change. Scholars of the late republic and early empire did not find archaic Latin easy to understand or attractive. Polybius, writing in the second century BC of the “first Carthaginian treaty” (perhaps 509 BC) says that even the best scholars after much study had difficulty in interpreting some of it.

    The following periods can be distinguished: ***the numbers are mine***
  • 1. Early Latin up to about 100 BC, including Plautus and Terence.(** Plautus wrote from 250-184 BC and his plays are very difficult to read; they are almost "the only evidence we have for the Latin language at that period").
  • 2. Classical or “Golden Age” Latin from 100 BC to the death of Livy, occurring soon after the death of the emperor Augustus in AD 14 (the literary activity of Cicero and Caesar gives special importance to the years 81-41 BC);
  • 3. Silver Latin, the term which describes the post-classical period up to about AD 150, and marks a falling off from the preceding Golden Age, and
  • 4. Late Latin from AD 150, which merges into
  • 5. Medieval Latin.

  • More on Silver Latin and the different types of colloquial Latin:

    The period of Silver Latin, broadly from….AD 14 to about 150, is a period of what can generally be considered a decline from previous greatness. It is characterized by the development of rhetoric, which led to a striving for novelty and effect, over and above meaning, and is marked by exaggerated emphases, antitheses, and epigrams. These trends are seen most clearly in the prose of Tacitus and the poetry of Lucan.

    A. Spoken or Colloquial Latin: These terms cover the easy “everyday speech,” (sermo cotidianus) of educated people. The plays of Plautus and Terence provide the best evidence for this style, but also important are the letters of Cicero, especially those to his intimate friend Atticus, with their very free syntax. In similar vein, although poetic, are Horace’s Satires and Epistles, and parts of Catullus. Interesting in this respect is the Satyricon of Petronius, which range from cultured urbanity to coarse vulgarity.

  • B. Vulgar Latin Vulgar Latin is the spoken Latin of the uneducated classes in Rome, Italy and the provinces. It is known from inscriptions and especially graffiti, a few texts such as the Satyricon of Petronius and the early development of the Romance languages. It is marked by slurred or confused pronunciation, resulting in different spellings, a standardization of originally diverse word forms, a break-down of declensions leading to an increased use of prepositions, a much simpler syntax, and a more natural word-order.


  • I hope some of that is helpful, it's awfully dry looking for one of the most exciting subjects there IS!

    ginny

    tooki
    September 24, 2003 - 06:34 am
    Since we've already had discussions about various wars and battles and are about to read about more, I found this site interesting. It is a book review of "Carnage and Culture," by Victor Davis Hanson, a currently popular, classicist, historian, neo-con. He writes extensively for "The National Review." The reviews, there are two of them, clearly state Hanson's position on wars and national character.

    Carnage and Culture

    I think his thesis is fascinating. I'm not sure I agree with it. But that isn't the point, is it?

    tooki
    September 24, 2003 - 09:32 am
    The other atttributes of vulgar Latin, "slurred or confused promounciation...," are similar to vulgar English. These attributes can also be found in what has been called "Ebonics." There was a movement a couple of years ago to teach Ebonics in schools. This was in Oakland, California. Ebonics at work can be heard by listening to Rap music.

    How interesting to consider these comparasions. I had always wondered what "vulgar" Latin was. It left much to the imagination.

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 24, 2003 - 09:33 am
    Not just from graffiti, from television, radio, music and art in the form of contemporary art and graphic art in commercials seen in ads in magazines, on TV, on billboards, etc. Remember that what is considered vulgar English today might be proper English tomorrow.

    A question: Why did the beautiful Latin language die?

    Thank you, GINNY, for taking time from all you have to do with and for your grape harvest to come in and give us such fine information.

    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 24, 2003 - 09:37 am
    Ebonics can be heard spoken by your African American friends if they trust you enough to speak it when you're around. What is called "Ebonics" is as much a part of the English language as the words and phrases we've taken from other languages such as Latin. Remember "short end of the stick"?

    Not all rappers are Black, TOOKI. What about Eminem?

    Mal

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 24, 2003 - 10:37 am
    That's great stuff about the Latin language, Ginny. I printed it out and will read it at my leisure.

    "Tooki:--I also printed out your thought-provoking link to "carnage."

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 24, 2003 - 11:24 am
    I found this article about the RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN HISTORY AND TRANSLATION to be a fascinating one.

    Robby

    georgehd
    September 24, 2003 - 11:37 am
    I am busy trying to catch up with your interesting posts, particularly the many web sites referred to. I got to Baltimore in time for Isabel and was without power for two days. We sustained no damage at all but huge trees were felled and that is what caused power outages all over the state. I see crews from many states working including Illinois and Pennsylvania. Am off to Durham tomorrow where I will not have internet access for a few days and will rejoin you next week. I had finished the book through Hannibal and so should not be too far behind.

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 24, 2003 - 11:49 am
    I found this article about the RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN HISTORY AND TRANSLATION to be a fascinating one.

    Robby

    tooki
    September 24, 2003 - 11:51 am
    tell us how you stomp the grapes to make wine. George, what are you doing running around the east coast, should it be any of my business. Mal, I didn't mean to imply that all rappers were Black. I'm going outside now into a lovely fall day, and I'll mind my own business too!

    Shasta Sills
    September 24, 2003 - 01:36 pm
    Tooki, I don't want to hear about that. I'm a wine-drinker, and I don't want to think of anybody's feet in my wine.

    Back in Post 339, an interesting link was brought up concerning whether Americans are getting crazier, or the psychiatrists are just getting better at diagnosing mental illness. I really wanted to hear what Robby thought about this, but the hurricane hit him at that point, and he never did get back to this subject. I'm still curious about it.

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 24, 2003 - 01:48 pm
    Shasta:--If you ask me that question in the forum, "Developmental Psychology," rather than here, I'd be happy to give my thoughts.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 24, 2003 - 02:03 pm
    Durant continues:--

    "Tariffs and tribute brought Carthage annually 12,000 talents -- twenty times the revenue of Athens at her zenith. The upper classes lived in palaces, wore costly robes, and ate exotic delicacies. The city, crowded with a quarter of a million inhabitants, became famous for its gleaming temples, its public baths, above all for its secure harbors and spacious docks.

    "Each of the 220 docks was faced with two Ionic pillars, so that the inner harbor ("cothon") presented a majestic circle of 440 marble columns. Thence a broad avenue led to the Forum, a colonnaded square adorned with Greek sculpture and containing administrarive buildings, commercial offices, law courts, and temples. The adjoining streets, Orientally narrow, teemed with a thousand shops plying a hundred crafts and resounded with bargaining. Houses rose to six stories, and often crowded a family into a single room.

    "In the center of the city, providing one of many hints to the later builders of Rome, stood a hill or citadel -- the Byrsa. Here were the Treasury and the Mint, more shrines and colonnades, and the most brilliant of Carthaginian temples -- to the great god Eshmun. Around the landward side of the city ran a threefold protective wall forty-five feet high, with still higher towers and battlements. Within the wall were accommodations for 4000 horses, 300 elephants, and 20,000 men.

    "Outside the walls were the estates of the rich, and beyond these, the fields of the poor."

    A gigantic city -- wealth (greater than that of Athens), poverty, temples, trade. Comments anyone?

    Robby

    moxiect
    September 24, 2003 - 03:00 pm
    Hi Robby

    Just to let you know I am still here and learning.

    Shasta I use to help my grandfather press the grapes to make wine. He used a vat as large as a washing machine, filled it with grapes, then place a circular piece of wood on it which had a arm that one had to walk continually around the vat to squeeze the juice from them. As for stomping with feet I am not sure.

    As for translations that have been done from Latin and other languages was/are left to the translator's discretion whether or not they adhere to strict interpretation of what was written.

    Shasta Sills
    September 24, 2003 - 03:42 pm
    Robby, that link about translation is so full of fascinating information that I had to bookmark it so I can read it all. "A Confusing Poem" is hilarious. Nothing fascinates me as much as words.

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 24, 2003 - 04:04 pm
    Shall we skip the section of the book regarding Carthage that Durant is discussing now or are there any reactions to Durant's remarks from anyone at this time?

    Robby

    tooki
    September 24, 2003 - 06:02 pm
    Perhaps the problem is the difficulty of keeping dates straight. Maybe this will help:

    Carthagian Dates

    Justin
    September 24, 2003 - 09:31 pm
    Ginny, Tooki: Thank you for the exposition on the origins of Latin.

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 24, 2003 - 09:45 pm
    History of Ancient Carthage with maps and images

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 24, 2003 - 09:51 pm
    Happy Birthday, Robby!

    Justin
    September 24, 2003 - 10:13 pm
    Egypt lasted about three millennia and was perhaps strongest from 2000BCE to about 1500 BCE, Greece lasted one and one half millennia and was strongest from about 500 BCE to about 300BCE , Carthage lasted for a millenium and one half and was strongest from about 500BCE to about 200BCE. Rome lasted two millennia and was strongest from about 400 BCE to about 500 CE. Egypt was strong for about 5 centuries, Greece for about 3 centures, Carthage for about three centuries, and Rome for nine to ten centuries. This was a time when Giants stalked the earth. They clashed in trade and in military combat and in the end disappeared from the stage in defeat.

    But while they were here, these civilizations, they crossed the alps with elephants, invented new methods of combat, mounted monuments that amaze us today, built cities of great beauty, and founded and stocked libraries to pass on intellectual wealth to the coming generations. The coming generations(our forebears) managed to destroy these libraries and to continue in the abysmal paths of war which brought each one of these classic civilizations to its knees.

    Will we never learn the lessons of history. Septimus Severus is remembered in Rome by a monument. He attacked Iran and Iraq preemptively and defeated those folks in battle in an effort to extend the Augustan peace. Here we are two millennia later doing the same thing for the same excuse.

    Justin
    September 24, 2003 - 10:26 pm
    Religion has been the cause of great suffering throughtout history. Another example appears in Carthage. When things did not go well for the Carthaginians they prayed to their gods and sacrificed hundreds of children at a time by tossing them live in the fire while Mom was forced to watch.

    Today, Islamists convince children and parents they will benefit in heaven if they sacrifice their lives in suicidal missions to kill the innocent-the children of the enemy. When will we learn to live together in peace and harmony? Libraries are burned while the carnage continues.

    kiwi lady
    September 24, 2003 - 11:13 pm
    Justin - there are many clergy who speak for peace but their voices are never recorded. I hate war. Why people still want to kill each other in the 21st century is beyond me. However if you think about it its even worse today. Those who decide on these wars never fight in them. Perhaps we could save a lot of lives if the leaders of each country had to fight in hand to hand combat. Winner takes all. I would be confident that there would be no more wars if this system was in place! Its the poor and those poorly educated who make up the front line troops. Its always been this way. Regarded by those in power as dispensable. Cannon fodder as my grandpa used to say. When he was near the end of his life he told me about the Great War 1914-1918 and the trenches in France. He made me promise I would do anything to keep my son from becoming a war casualty. Grandpa was gassed in the war. He suffered from respiratory problems for the rest of his life.

    The more we learn about our history the more we realise that nothing changes. Man has learnt nothing.

    Carolyn

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 25, 2003 - 03:06 am
    Justin:--Thank you for those comparisons of the amounts of time that various civilization held sway. Obviously the Roman culture, which we are about to examine, brought much to this planet.

    Thank you for your birthday wish, Mal. Hard to believe that I am 39 already!

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 25, 2003 - 03:30 am
    "The language of the Carthaginians now and then struck a Hebraic note, as when it called the chief magistrates shofetes -- the Hebrew shophetim, or judges. The men grew beards, but usually shaved the upper lip with bronze razors.

    "Most of them wore a fez or a turban, shoes or sandals, and a long loose gown. The upper classes adopted the Greek style of dress, dyed their robes with purple, and fringed them with glass beads.

    "The women led for the most part a veiled and secluded life. They could rise to a high place in the priesthoods but otherwise had to be contented with the sovereignty of their charms. Both sexes used jewelry and perfume, and occasionallly displayed a ring in the nose.

    "We know little of their morals except from their enemies. Greek and Roman writers describe them as heavy eaters and drinkers, loving to gather in dinner clubs, and as loose in their sex relations as they were corrupt in their politics. The treacherous Romans employed fides Punica - Carthaginian faith -- as a synonum for treachery.

    "Polybius reported that 'at Carthage nothing that results in profit is regarded as disgraceful.' Plutarch denounced the Carthaginians as 'hard and gloomy, docile to their rulers, hard to their subjects, running to extremes of cowardice in fear and of savagery in anger, stubborn in decisions, austere, and unresponsive to amusement or the graces of life.''

    "But Plutarch, though usually fair, was always a Greek. Polybius was bosom friend of the Seipio who burned Carthage to the ground.

    "The Carthaginians appear at their worse in their religion, which again we know only from their enemies. Their ancestors in Phoenicia had worshiped Baal-Moloch and Astarte as personifying the male and female principles in nature, and the sun and moon in the sky. The Carthaginians addressed similar devotions to corresponding deities -- Baal-Haman and Tanith. Tanith above all aroused their loving piety. They filled her temples with gifts, and took her name in their oaths.

    "Third in honor was the god Melkart, 'Key of the City.' Then Eshmun, god of wealth and health. Then a host of minor gods -- 'baals' or lords. Even Dido was worshiped.

    "To Baal-Haman, in great crises, living children were sacrificed, as many as three hundred in a day.

    "They were placed upon the inclined and outstretched arms of the idol and rolled off into the fire beneath. Their cries were drowned in the noise of trumpets and cymbals. Their mothers were required to look upon the scene without moan or fear, lest they be acdused of impiety and lose the credit due them from the god.

    "In time the rich refused to sacrifice their own children and bought substitutes among the poor. When Agathoeles of Syracuse besieged Carthage, the upper classes, fearing their subterfuge had offended the god, cast two hundred aristocratic infants into the fire. It should be added that these stories are told us by Diodorus, a Sicilian Greek, who looked with equanimity upon the Greek custom of infanticide.

    "It may be that the Carthaginian sacrifice solaced with piety an effort to control the excesses of human fertility."

    As I read the "atrocities" of the people of that time, I find I must force myself to try to understand by looking through their eyes and not see these acts as a citizen of the scientific 21st century Western culture.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 25, 2003 - 04:41 am
    "The name Hannibal means 'favorite of Baal'." Scroll back to Post #476 to read more about Carthaginian religion.

    It's interesting to see the male-female aspect stressed in religion yet once again. So much in religion was based on myths and superstition, and is even today. When people couldn't find a reason for what they didn't understand and the way things happened, they made one up, and sometimes called it a god.

    The description of the Carthaginians by their enemies makes them sound like people I certainly wouldn't want to know. At least part of these assessments must be the truth. I wonder what made the Carthaginians so different from the Greeks and the Romans different from each of them. There's so much involved -- genes, diet, climate, geography, threats to security, natural and otherwise, etc.

    I think there are sacrificial lambs in every culture, frankly. People often lose sight of reason in the face of serious crisis, the time when reason is most needed.

    Robby made an astute observation a while back when he said it appears (and I paraphrase here) that war is the norm, and peace is the exception. After seeing so many wars in my lifetime and so much unnecessary slaughter, I'm beginning to get used to that idea.

    What, though, (if any) were the contributions the Carthaginians made to civilization? Surely there had to be some.

    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 25, 2003 - 05:11 am
    About Baal

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 25, 2003 - 05:31 am
    "At Carthage the most important deity of all was Tanith, Baal's consort. Her symbols include doves, palm tree, grapes, crescent moon, ... . Like Isis, she is the goddess with many names, a queen of the Manes(Shades of the dead)



    "The Tophet was the place where children up to 4 years were sacrificed and buried. It lay to the south of Carthage and to the west of the harbour. Diodorious wrote about the religious practices of the Carthaginians: They were filled with superstitious dread, for they believed they had neglected the honors of the gods that had been established by their fathers. In their zeal to make amends for their omission, they selected 200 of the noblest children and sacrificed them publicly; and others who were under suspicion sacrificed themselves voluntarily, in a number not less than 300. (Diodorus 20.14.1-7 and following)."

    Bubble
    September 25, 2003 - 05:59 am
    In modern Hebrew, Tophet means: place of burning, inferno, hell.
    We use it in every day life for a "Tophet parcel", a terrorist explosive package left behind.

    tooki
    September 25, 2003 - 06:07 am
    Robby: Why would you need to try to "look through their eyes?" As Justin and Kewi just pointed out, and Mal has said, nothing has changed. It surprises me that you think that "as a citizen of he scientific 21st century Western culture" you are somehow protected, inhibited, or immune from understanding atrocities. Surely, besides what Justin mentioned above, you are aware of the "hand choppers" in Africa, other atrocities there, and the sacrifical nature of the Palestinian parents. It sounds to me like you are saying your cultural background protects, shelters, and shields you from outrage and empathy.

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 25, 2003 - 06:40 am
    TOOKI, in the first place I didn't say "nothing has changed." A great deal has changed since Carthage and Rome were around as a civilizations. As just one example, I suggest that no Carthaginian lived to be 95 -- or even 83, as Robby is today.

    In the second place, it seems to me that Robby's meaning is clear. To a person living in the Western world at this time, sacrificing 300 children at a time to a god seems obscene and terrible, especially in the United States when we bend over backwards to see that children get all the breaks they deserve.

    In order to understand a civilization where such sacrifice was acceptable, or even to understand civilizations today where hands are cut off if a person steals, or parents encourage the sacrifice of their children in suicide bombings, we must put our particular way of life in the background and try to think as these people did and do.

    Mal

    HubertPaul
    September 25, 2003 - 10:00 am
    "It may be that the Carthaginian sacrifice solaced with piety an effort to control the excesses of human fertility."

    In our society, abortion is the effort to control the excesses of human fertility,but....not solaced with piety.

    As Mal said, a great deal has changed.......

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 25, 2003 - 10:27 am
    You win, BERT. Such twistings and turnings, misinterpretations and obeisance to some man-created god or other in the name of religion don't appeal to this woman. I'm bowing out.

    HubertPaul
    September 25, 2003 - 10:32 am
    Mal, just read a good slogan in another discussion:

    "RELIGION IS FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE AFRAID OF GOING TO HELL. SPIRITUALITY IS FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN THERE."

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 25, 2003 - 01:34 pm
    BERT, that's clever, but too black and white for me, too. I find anything that eliminates choice unpalatable. What I see here today are examples of putting 21st century points of view on a time that existed more than 2000 years ago.

    Now, let's get back to "nothing that results in profit is regarded to be disgraceful." What are these Carthaginian people? Worshipers of a pre-New Testament Great God Mammon? Were the Ancient Greeks like that? Are the Romans?

    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 25, 2003 - 02:43 pm
    Every search of the gods mentioned by Durant in Robby's quote today is leading me to Phoenicia. Were the Phoenicians Semites? Justin, I need your help here, I think.

    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 25, 2003 - 02:47 pm
    Below is a link to information about Semitic languages. Dumb me. I never realized before that people were called Semites because of the languages they spoke.

    Hamito-Semitic languages

    Justin
    September 25, 2003 - 03:10 pm
    I have no other yardstick than my current sense of good and bad with which to judge the actions of people whether they be Cartheginians, Saudi, or Falwellians. It is easy to think that we can judge others by putting ourselves in their cultural melieu but that's impossible.There are however, somethings we moderns can do. We can recognize that superstition promotes undesirable ends and that a light of reality should be focused on all superstitious activity. It is ignorance that we should fight. But we don't. The best among us make excuses for it and give lip service to contemporary superstitious activity. We tend to think it is harmless but the evil in superstition lies in its insidious nature.

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 25, 2003 - 07:44 pm
    "When the Romans destroyed Carthage they presented the libraries they found there to their African allies. Of these collections nothing survives except Hanno's record of his voyage, and fragments of Mago on husbandry. Saint Augustine vaguely assures us that 'in Carthage there were many things wisely handed down to memory' and Sallust and Juba made use of Carthaginian historians. We have no native account of Carthage's history.

    "Of its architecture the Romans left not a stone upon a stone. We are told that its style was a mixture of Phoenician and Greek, that its temples were massive and ornate. That the temple and statue of Baal-Haman were plated with gold valued at a thousand talents. That even the proud Greeks considered Carthage one of the world's most beaautiful capitals.

    "The museums of Tunis contain some pieces of sculpture from sarcophagi found in tombs near the site of Carthage. The finest is a strong and graceful figure, perhaps of Tanith, in a manner essentially Greek. Smaller statues, unearthed from Carthaginian graves in the Baleres, are crude and often repulsively grotesque, as if designed to impress children or frighten deveils away.

    "The surviving pottery is purely utilitarian. We know that Carthaginian craftsmen did good work in textiles, jewelry, ivory, ebony, amber, and glass."

    Robby

    tooki
    September 25, 2003 - 08:36 pm
    According to the Durants the Carthaginians were ancestors or somehow descendents of the Phoenicians. This site, Ethnic origins, language and literature of the Phoenicians may offer some useful information. It does go on; the most informative parts are at the beginning.

    tooki
    September 25, 2003 - 08:52 pm
    According to this site the children were not burned as sacrifices, they were "retroceded."

    Child Sacrifice?

    The arguments seem sound for thinking the sacrificing was a myth.

    Justin
    September 25, 2003 - 10:13 pm
    Two pieces of evidence standout. Diodorus describes the process and archeologists found incinerated infant bones at a religious site. In addition, we know that infanticide in China and India was not uncommon and the Jews put their children through the fire.

    On the other hand, the act is so heinous that it is difficult to imagine any society allowing it to occur. Parents are parents-Cartheginian or American. There are exceptions of course, but in the main, what parents feel for their children is pretty universal.

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 26, 2003 - 04:30 am
    Is it possible that belief in one's faith can be stronger than one's love for one's children?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 26, 2003 - 04:49 am
    "Any clear picture of Carthaginian government is now beyond our pens. Aristotle praised the constitution of Carthage as 'in many respects superior to all others,' for 'a state is proved to be well ordered when the commons are steadily loyal to the constitution, when no civil conflict worth speaking of has arisen, and when no one has succeeded in making himself dictator.'

    "The citizens met occasionally in an Assembly empowered to accept or reject, but not to discuss or amend, proposals referred to it by a Senate of three hundred elders. The Senate, however, was not obliged to submit to the assembly any measures upon which it could itself agree. The people elected the Senate, but open bribery reduced the virtue or danger of this democratic procedure, and replaced an aristocracy of birth with an oligarchy of wealth.

    "From nominations presented by the Senate, the Assembly annually chose two shofetes to head the judicial and administrative branches of the state. Above all these bodies was a court of 104 judges who, in contravention of the law, held office for life. As it was empowered to sepervise all administration, and to require an accounting from every official at the end of his term, this court acquired, by the time of the Punic Wars, supreme control over every governmental agency and every citizen.

    "The commander of the armies was nominated by the Senate and chosen by the Assembly. He was in a better position than the Roman consul, for his command could be continued as long as the Senate desired. The Roman, however, led against Carthage legions of landowning patriots, whereas the Carthaginian army was a mercenary force of foreign -- chiefly Libyan -- origin, feeling no affection for Carthage, but loyal only to its paymaster and occasionally to its general. The Carthaginian navy was without question the most powerful of its time. Five hundred quinqueremes, gaily painted, slim and swift, ably protected Carthaginian colonies, markets, and trade routes.

    "It was the conquest of Sicily by this army, and the closing of the western Mediterranean to Roman commerce by this navy, that brought on the century-long duel to the death known to us as the three Punic Wars."

    "A state is proved to be well ordered when the commons are steadily loyal to the constitution, when no civil conflict worth speaking of has arisen, and when no one has succeeded in making himself dictator." Agree? Disagree?

    Robby

    Bubble
    September 26, 2003 - 06:05 am
    When I saw yesterday a Palestinian mom on TV, in her arms her 5 years old son and declaring proudly: I am raising this son to become a suicide bomber and bring honor to our family just like his dad did in blowing up a bus... YES Robby, faith and nationalism certainly seem stronger than one's love for one's children.



    But it is beyong my understanding.
    Bubble

    tooki
    September 26, 2003 - 06:47 am
    Early on, around the 9 and 8 hundreds, Phoenicia had the Med. to itself and was able to do all those things we read about: spread its alphabet, trade richs and stuff, and generally control the Mediterranean. As the Etruscans and Greeks began challenging Phoenicia on the sea, Carthage, founded in 813 according to the Durants, was able to become a power in her own right. Phoenician civilization continued in Carthage, like European civilization in American. Because it was on the sea it became a melting pot, intermixing numerous ethic strains in its peoples. It's 500 quinqueremes plied the Med. with gay abandon. We must learn something about these ships that made the whole thing possible!

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 26, 2003 - 07:06 am
    Panorama View Carthage Ruins

    Pictures: Carthage Ruins

    Pictures: Sculptures, National Museum Tunis

    Mosaics: National Museum Tunis

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 26, 2003 - 07:34 am
    "Can belief in one's faith be stronger than love for one's children?"

    Read the story of Abraham and Isaac.

    In the New Testament of the Bible you'll see:
    "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,
    that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

    John 3:16
    People believe this and follow its imperative, even today. I say the following (with every intention of being sacrilegious): What a bunch of malarkey!

    However, if people believe what is said in the Bible here and choose to follow it by sacrificing what is most dear to them in order to achieve their own immortality, I also say the choice is their right . . . . as long as they don't hurt anyone else in the process or expect everyone else in the world to believe and follow what they do.

    Did God's word, as stated by John, have a precedent in Pagan times, such as that of Carthage? To me, the line between Christianity and Paganism sometimes seems very thin.

    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 26, 2003 - 08:26 am
    Roman shipbuilding

    Phoenician ships with illustrations

    HubertPaul
    September 26, 2003 - 10:35 am
    A state is proved to be well ordered when the commons are steadily loyal to the constitution, when no civil conflict worth speaking of has arisen, and when no one has succeeded in making himself dictator." Agree? Disagree?

    Agree, Robby, but how long can a state maintain such a situation? It always comes, to the following(in principle):

    “...........but open bribery reduced the virtue or danger of this democratic procedure, and replaced an aristocracy of birth with an oligarchy of wealth.”

    and then??

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 26, 2003 - 04:59 pm
    Can we have some of our lurkers here give us a "Hi?"

    Robby

    GingerWright
    September 26, 2003 - 05:14 pm
    Hi Robby, Just checking in.

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 26, 2003 - 05:15 pm
    Oh, but you are often here, Ginger. I'm looking for some of the "hidden" lurkers so I don't feel so alone.

    Robby

    Justin
    September 26, 2003 - 05:56 pm
    Mal: Thanks for the art images. Cartheginian sculpture includes much that is Greek. Some of the pieces have the look of the sixth century and others the look of the fourth century. Did you notice that the gods recovered all seem to be female. We know there were male gods in this society. I think Baal is male. I read Salambo by Flaubert some time ago and I recall a male god in the story who received a sacrifice of three hundred children into his firery bosom when the city was threatened by unpaid mercenary soldiers. Flaubert may have expanded on the tale by Diodorus but the gender of the gods seems like a small thing. I wonder if god appearing figures other than those you have shown are extant.

    Justin
    September 26, 2003 - 06:10 pm
    I think we know now that in 3000BCE, human sacrifice was not uncommon.The Abraham and Isaac story was credible at the time. The unusual part of the tale was the substitution of the ram for Isaac. Who ever reduced the tale to written form did so at a much later date and probably made the change to account for a change in taste. However, at the time of the writing of the Pentateuch, the Hebrews were putting their children through the fire. More research is needed in this area to better understand the myth. Unfortuneately, many of these sites are being looted at this very moment in Iraq.

    kiwi lady
    September 26, 2003 - 06:29 pm
    I would point out Mal there is nothing in the Christian religion which requires one to sacrifice ones children.

    Robby your comments in red. I agree.

    I am still waiting for my book so I can be more informed when I post. Its suppose to come on or around next Thursday. (fingers crossed)

    In the old Testament God tells the Hebrews to stop worshipping Baal. I assume from this God was not too pleased with the practices associated with worshipping this other God.

    I've been cleaning out cupboards and had family for lunch . I am too sore to post any more right now! However never fear Robby I am lurking regularly.

    Carolyn

    Justin
    September 26, 2003 - 06:40 pm
    Robby; Loyalty to a constitution , no civic conflict, and no dictator, are the suggested ingredients of a well ordered state. They seem limiting to me. While constitutions appeared in Greece for a time they were not a very popular form of government until the eighteenth century CE and even then they were rarely employed. That means there were no well ordered states between Greece and the eighteenth century. I don't think that's true.

    As an abstract thought, the proposition has merit. In thinking back on the history of the US, I find civil stife fairly common, no dictators ( although a few would have like to be dictator), and a continued loyalty to a slowly changing constitution. Are we a well ordered state?

    Justin
    September 26, 2003 - 06:46 pm
    Kiwi Lady; I would agree, there is nothing in the Christian religion which requires parents to sacrifice their children, so long as you forget God's request of Abraham and God's request of his son. These sacrifices seem rather fundemental to Christianity.

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 26, 2003 - 07:41 pm
    Durant continues:--

    "Rome was harassed with class strife, was expanding in the Adriatic, and was at war with the Gauls. In 232 a tribune, Caius Flaminius, foreshadowed the Gracchi by carrying through the Assembly, against the violent oppostion of the Senate, a measure distributng among the poorer citizens some lands recently won from the Gauls.

    "In 230 Rome took her first step toward the conquest of Greece by clearing the Adriatic of pirates and seizing a part of the Illyrian coast as a further protection for Italian trade. Safe now on south and east, she resolved to drive the Gauls over the Alps and make Italy a completely united state.

    "To secure herself on the west she signed a treaty with Hasdrubal by which the Carthaginians in Spain agreed to stay south of the Ebro River. At the same time she made an alliance with the semi-Greek towns of Saguntum and Ampurias in Spain.

    "In the following year (225) a Gallic army of 50,000 foot and 20,000 horse swept down the peninsula. The inhabitants of the capital were so frightened that the Senate returned to the primitive custom of human sacrifice and buried two Gauls alive in the Forum as an appeasement of the gods.

    "The legions met the invaders near Telamon, killed 40,000, took 10,000 prisoners, and marched on to subjugate all Cisalpine Gaul. In three years the task was completed.

    "Protective colonies were established at Placentia and Cremona, and from the Alps to Sicily Italy was one."

    Robby

    decaf
    September 26, 2003 - 07:57 pm
    Judy says Hi! Tonight is my first "lurk" in a week. My sisters, and I, are busy packing, and moving the contents of my recently deceased parent's home.

    When Robby asked whether the possibility of a parent's belief in their faith could be stronger than the love of their children, I thought of news stories about parents who refuse their children much needed medical care because their "faith" forbids such intervention. Allowing a helpless child to suffer, and many times to die, because of such extreme beliefs doesn't translate to love for the child, in my opinion.

    In sorting through my parents things I've come across several things that reminded me of this discussion. One is a cookbook (my mother was a collector of such) titled Apicius - Cookery and Dining In Imperial Rome. The back cover says in part, "This is the first English translation of Apicius de re Coquinaria, the oldest known cookbook in existence. It is also one of the few translations of this original Roman cookbook prepared by a professional chef."

    I'm anxious to get a better look after all is trucked over and unpacked. I noticed an interesting map that appears to be related to this era.

    Judy S (CA)

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 26, 2003 - 08:47 pm
    Favourite Apician Recipes (in English)

    kiwi lady
    September 26, 2003 - 10:08 pm
    I did not realise baked custard was thousands of years old. I like it . I sprinkle freshly grated nutmeg on top before I put it into the oven. Its delicious served with freshly poached fruit of some kind. I always put a blob of whipped cream on the custard when I serve it.

    Middle Eastern sweets.

    Vanessa's partners Mum makes a sweet with ground almonds and coconut and I think it must be bound together with honey. She sent home a huge container of them with Cenks cousin last Christmas and I got about a pound of them. I could not stop eating them - they were delicious with coffee after dinner. The sweets are small and look like they have been made into a long roll and then sliced into tiny portions. I hope she sends more this Christmas!

    Mary W
    September 26, 2003 - 10:33 pm
    ROBBY: I am always here. I read every word every day. Just don't contribute . It's fascinating material, a really great group and, of course, Senior Nets most able leader. I'm having trouble with my eyes but will consider myself a part of this group for as long as I can read. Hank

    Justin
    September 26, 2003 - 11:30 pm
    Mary W. I hope your eye trouble is not beyond the skill of a good opthamologist.

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 27, 2003 - 03:53 am
    Judy and Hank:--Good to know you are still with us. Don't we learn fascinating things in this discussion group?!!

    And it appears from comments here that a belief in a specific faith overrides just about every other emotion -- including love for one's children. I suppose one could approach it from the opposite side and say that if love for one's children comes first, that one's belief in a particular faith is not that strong.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 27, 2003 - 04:15 am
    "Had the Gauls been left unmolested for a few years more they might have stopped Hannibal. Now all Gaul was aflame against Rome. Hannibal saw the opportunity he had longed for -- to cross Gaul with little opposition and to invade Italy with Gallic tribes as his allies.

    "The Punic leader ws not twenty-eight years old, at his prime in body and mind. In addition to a Carthaginian gentleman's schooling in the languages, literature, and history of Phoenicia and Greece, he had received a soldier's training through nineteen years in camp. He had disciplined his body to hardship, his appetite to moderation, his tongue to silence, his thought to objectivity. He could run or ride with the swiftest, hunt or fight with the bravest. He was 'the first to enter the battle' says the hostile Livy, 'and the last to abandon the field.'

    "The veterans loved him because in his commanding presence and piercing eyes they saw their old leader Hamilcar return to them in fresh youth. The recruits liked him because he wore no distinctive dress, never rested until he had provided for his army's needs, and shared with them all sufferings and gains. The Romans accused him of avarice, cruelty, and treachery, for he honored no scruples in seizing supplies for his troops, punished disloyalty severely, and laid many snares for his foes.

    "Yet we find him often merciful, always chivalrous. The Romans could not readily forgive himn for winning battles with his brains rather than with the lives of his men.

    "The tricks he played upon them, the skill of his espionage, the subtlety of his strategy, the surprises of his tactics were beyond their appreciation until Carthage was destroyed."

    What a man!!!

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 27, 2003 - 04:36 am
    Click HERE to learn about current-day training to be a leader in the military.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 27, 2003 - 04:56 am
    Can a parent purposely ending the life of a child be simultaneously showing an act of love for the child? And does it make a difference if the child is an infant or an adult? Click HERE to see a riveting article in today's NY Times.

    Robby

    kiwi lady
    September 27, 2003 - 05:08 am
    Gosh Robby - What a question! I would be really struggling to do as that mother has done. It would go against all my beliefs. However should I be faced with such a decision it would be terribly hard to ignore a beloved childs pleas. I do think it makes a difference if the child is an infant. I have heard many very disabled young people say they are very glad they were able to be born and were glad that the law did not allow at the time they were conceived for them to be aborted.

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 27, 2003 - 05:32 am
    Here are some Department of Justice charts and figures on INFANTICIDE. Did you think it was merely an ancient activity?

    And please note that comment near the bottom about most of the killed infants being male and most of the offenders being male. Didn't I read somewhere that in the animal kingdom dominant males often kill off male children?

    And another comment there to the effect that in the case of infanticide of children under five, that the parent was the perpetrator? What happened to love of child?

    Robby

    Bubble
    September 27, 2003 - 06:02 am
    About post 525

    Definitely an act of love. Definitely I would act the same. Definitely I would wish my kids to do the same was it me in that same situation as this 22y old Frenchman.



    About the age: it is harder to act on older "children" because love and attachment matures with time.The feeling of loss would be so much greater I think.
    Having lost one at birth and two unborns, I grieved "intellectually". I have no proper memories to link with the loss I still feel. Bubble

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 27, 2003 - 06:52 am
    What kind of faith is this that would stand in the way of helping a grown child who is suffering terribly and desperate to die?

    Try to put yourself in Vincent Humbert's position. He was completely paralyzed and helpless, mute and blind. After three years of being in such a condition, all he had left was his hearing and his mind, which was obviously telling him he could not tolerate living in such a way any longer.

    Can you imagine what it was like for Mr. Humbert? Can you imagine such a life? Most people cannot even imagine accurately what life is like for BUBBLE and me, and our disabiities are far less severe than what this young man had.

    If our beloved animal pet were in such a condition, most of us would not hesitate to have it euthanized to stop its suffering. We are kinder to our animals than we are to our children and ourselves?

    It's too bad. Mr. Humbert no doubt suffered a spinal cord injury. Genetic engineering can restore functions disabled by such injuries. We won't allow that either.

    Mal

    kiwi lady
    September 27, 2003 - 12:25 pm
    Infanticide - I am ashamed to say we have a high rate of infanticide here - many of the deaths perpetrated by stepfathers or live in boyfriends of the mothers. There is much talk about it in the media recently. We have had one such case involving a 6yr old girl who died of massive brain injuries -the child supposedly left for school with her stepfather and never arrived. There was a huge search and eventually the stepfather after the police had arrested him on another matter confessed after 11 days he knew where the body was. Drugs and alcohol abuse have a lot to do with these deaths. Call me callous but I have not much sympathy for these women who fail to protect flesh of their flesh and bone of their bone from these violent men.

    Carolyn

    moxiect
    September 27, 2003 - 12:38 pm
    Hi Robby. I am here and still learning a great deal.

    I feel the need to comment about the article presented in post #527.

    A year ago I lost my grandson to a freak car accident. I had to stand by helplessly and watch the anguish his death cause my daughter.

    If I could have done something to ease her pain, I would have.

    Mr Humbert's mother did what she did out of pure agonizing love. Better to pass on with dignity than to suffer as he must have had.

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 27, 2003 - 12:55 pm
    We will soon return to the actions of Hannibal but as we pause to examine our attitude toward the deaths of children, it appears that there are sometimes extenuating circumstances and that perhaps the parents of those killed children millennia ago had -- in their view -- extenuating circumstances.

    How does that go about walking a moon in the other person's moccasins?

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 27, 2003 - 01:46 pm
    I think what motivated the Carthaginian parents to sacrifice their children was fear -- fear of what the gods would do if they didn't offer their boys and girls as homage and sacrifice.

    I wonder what barbaric custom we might not realize we have because of superstition and ignorance will be discussed at this length 2500 years from now by people of another civilization?

    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 27, 2003 - 02:00 pm
    I don't remember her name, but there was a woman who drowned her children in a bathtub not too many years ago. She was suffering from post natal depression at the time. Both she and her husband belonged to a very strict religion, as I recall. This woman had a history of mental illness, which included psychotic episodes. It seemed clear to me that this woman was not sane when she committed this act. Instead of being treated for the condition which caused this terrible thing, this woman is in prison.

    Susan Smith drowned her two children in her car after she was rejected by a man and was terribly depressed. This case says more to me than the words I just typed, enough to make me think Susan Smith was not sane either when she murdered her children. Susan Smith is not hospitalized; she's in prison. I saw something not long ago about the fact that she's looking for pen pals. There is a prison system that allows prisoners to do this through the internet and other advertising, in case some of you don't know.

    Minds altered by drug use or alcohol (which is a drug) are not sane either.

    I was thinking earlier how powerful the emotions caused by rage, fear, jealousy and depression are. Obviously, there are times when these emotions are far stronger than love.

    Mal

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 27, 2003 - 02:36 pm
    If you click HERE it will take you to the Photo forum where in Post 931 you will see a wonderful picture of Trevor of New Zealand, a constant participant in the Story of Civilization.

    Robby

    Justin
    September 27, 2003 - 07:22 pm
    Humbert's mom bears a tremendous burden. I think I could do that if necessary. But the after pain, no matter how right the action seemed, would be severe.

    I am going to be away from a computer for a week or so and will post again when I return. I expect to attend the Pushkin art exhibit while I am away and if I find any Roman works in the exhibition I will be certain to comment on them when I return.

    3kings
    September 27, 2003 - 07:40 pm
    ROBBY I trust your post 535, does not drive those here to take the pledge. HehHehHeh !

    And in reply to an earlier post, I confirm that I'm here every day, and would comment more often if I had the words to express my thoughts as succinctly, and as gracefully as other posters.--- Trevor

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 28, 2003 - 04:21 am
    Let us get back to "Caesar and Christ." I will repost the last two sections by Durant.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 28, 2003 - 04:25 am
    "Rome was harassed with class strife, was expanding in the Adriatic, and was at war with the Gauls. In 232 a tribune, Caius Flaminius, foreshadowed the Gracchi by carrying through the Assembly, against the violent oppostion of the Senate, a measure distributng among the poorer citizens some lands recently won from the Gauls.



    "In 230 Rome took her first step toward the conquest of Greece by clearing the Adriatic of pirates and seizing a part of the Illyrian coast as a further protection for Italian trade. Safe now on south and east, she resolved to drive the Gauls over the Alps and make Italy a completely united state.



    "To secure herself on the west she signed a treaty with Hasdrubal by which the Carthaginians in Spain agreed to stay south of the Ebro River. At the same time she made an alliance with the semi-Greek towns of Saguntum and Ampurias in Spain.



    "In the following year (225) a Gallic army of 50,000 foot and 20,000 horse swept down the peninsula. The inhabitants of the capital were so frightened that the Senate returned to the primitive custom of human sacrifice and buried two Gauls alive in the Forum as an appeasement of the gods.



    "The legions met the invaders near Telamon, killed 40,000, took 10,000 prisoners, and marched on to subjugate all Cisalpine Gaul. In three years the task was completed.



    "Protective colonies were established at Placentia and Cremona, and from the Alps to Sicily Italy was one."



    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 28, 2003 - 04:30 am
    "Had the Gauls been left unmolested for a few years more they might have stopped Hannibal. Now all Gaul was aflame against Rome. Hannibal saw the opportunity he had longed for -- to cross Gaul with little opposition and to invade Italy with Gallic tribes as his allies.



    "The Punic leader ws not twenty-eight years old, at his prime in body and mind. In addition to a Carthaginian gentleman's schooling in the languages, literature, and history of Phoenicia and Greece, he had received a soldier's training through nineteen years in camp. He had disciplined his body to hardship, his appetite to moderation, his tongue to silence, his thought to objectivity. He could run or ride with the swiftest, hunt or fight with the bravest. He was 'the first to enter the battle' says the hostile Livy, 'and the last to abandon the field.'



    "The veterans loved him because in his commanding presence and piercing eyes they saw their old leader Hamilcar return to them in fresh youth. The recruits liked him because he wore no distinctive dress, never rested until he had provided for his army's needs, and shared with them all sufferings and gains. The Romans accused him of avarice, cruelty, and treachery, for he honored no scruples in seizing supplies for his troops, punished disloyalty severely, and laid many snares for his foes.



    "Yet we find him often merciful, always chivalrous. The Romans could not readily forgive himn for winning battles with his brains rather than with the lives of his men.



    "The tricks he played upon them, the skill of his espionage, the subtlety of his strategy, the surprises of his tactics were beyond their appreciation until Carthage was destroyed."



    What a man!!!



    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 28, 2003 - 05:49 am
    Hannibal Timeline

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 28, 2003 - 06:30 am
    Hannibal: Tarentum coin

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 28, 2003 - 06:56 am
    That Timeline is excellent, Mal. The fact that it has received over a quarter of a million visits indicates the interest in this subject.

    I like timelines because I can put the various civilizations (Greek, Carthaginian, Roman, etc.) together in my mind and see how they interacted.

    Robby

    tooki
    September 28, 2003 - 07:13 am
    sweeping down the peninsula. "A Gallic army of 50,000 foot and 20,000 horses" doesn't seem capable of "sweeping." The ensuing battle, the legions killing 40,000 and taking 10,000 prisoners seems a bit much. And then, presumably with the 10,000 prisoners, the legions marched on to subjugate all Cisalpine Gaul. Of course it took them three years to accomplish this, what with the burden of those 10,000 prisoners.

    This all seems a bit overwrought to me so I checked the Durant's source. What a delight! Here is a thumbnail sketch of the 19th century's greatest Roman scholar.

    Thodor Mommsen (1817-1903) German classical scholar and historian won the Nobel Prize for Literature in 1903, beating out Leo Tolstoy whose views were considered too radical. He wrote voluminously, was active politically, and participated in an uprising in Saxony during the 1848 revolution.

    In his works Mommsen boldly drew parallels between modern times and ancient Rome, for which he was criticized.

    The method of drawing parallels between history and contemporary life has, then, been practiced before the Durants and this discussion group. I never did find out or decide whether those figures were in the ballpark.

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 28, 2003 - 07:26 am
    Tooki says:--"I checked the Durant's source."

    I think that's great! Participants in this discussion group are "thinking" people who do not automatically accept what is said. Of course, by the same token, we can not disagree unless we have obtained "evidence" to the contrary.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 28, 2003 - 11:37 am
    "In 219 B.C. Roman agents organized in Saguntum a coup d'etat that set up a government patriotically hostile to Carthage. When the Saguntines molested tribes friendly to him, Hannibal ordered them to desist. When they refused he belieged the city. Rome protested to Carthage and threatened war. Carthage replied that since Saguntum was a hundred miles south of the Ebro, Rome had no right to interfere and had, by signing an alliance with it, violated her treaty with Hasdrubal (Hannibal's father). Hannibal persisted in the siege and Rome took up arms again, never dreaming that this Second Punic War was to be the most terrible in her history.

    "Hannibal spent eight months in subduing the Saguntines. He did not dare advance toward Italy while leaving to the Romans so excellent a port for landing in his rear.

    "In 218 he crossed the Ebro, challenging fate as Caesar would at the Rubicon. He had an army of 50,000 infantry and 9000 cavalry, none of them mercenaries, most of them Spaniards and Libyans.

    "Three thousand Spaniards deserted when they learned that he planned to cross the Alps, and Hannibal released 7000 others who protested against his enterprise as impossible. It was hard enough to force a passage through the Pyrenees. More unexpected was the fierce resistance of some Gallic tribes allied with Marseilles. A summer of fighting was required to reach the Rhone, and a major battle to cross it.

    "He had hardly left its banks when a Roman army arrived at the mouth of the river."

    Fierce Gallic tribes. Extremely high mountains to cross. "Foreign" Spaniards as part of the troops. The Romans possibly at his rear. I am wondering why Hannibal would even consider such an action

    Robby

    Bubble
    September 28, 2003 - 11:57 am
    He checked the entrails of some volaille maybe?

    Shasta Sills
    September 28, 2003 - 01:46 pm
    I thought Hasdrubal was Hannibal's brother, and Hamilcar was his father.

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 28, 2003 - 03:19 pm
    He was. You are correct. I do not print out every single paragraph in the book, had not printed out the section on Hamilcar and Hasdrubal, and had inserted that parenthesis myself to help explain.

    BOY! You guys are so sharp. I never did that before and I'll never do it again.

    I am so embarrassed!!

    3kings
    September 28, 2003 - 03:22 pm
    The Hasdrubal mentioned here was Hannibal's Brother in Law. Hannibal also had a brother called Hasdrubal, and they, as you said, were the sons of Hamilcar.

    EDIT :- I see you beatme to it ROBBY!== Trevor

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 28, 2003 - 03:30 pm
    And every now and then I get the feeling that there is no one here either present or paying any attention whatsoever and that I can print anything I want. It is obvious that this discussion group never sleeps!

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 28, 2003 - 03:45 pm
    Durant speaks of Saguntum and their citizens, the Saguntines. Read of the TERRIBLE EXPERIENCE of these Saguntines.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 28, 2003 - 03:56 pm
    Here is a MAP showing the geographical distance from Saguntum in Spain to Rome in Italy.

    Robby

    Shasta Sills
    September 28, 2003 - 04:13 pm
    Whoever wrote that link was really upset because the gods didn't behave the way they should have, wasn't he. It seems to me that if you are expecting gods to behave the way they ought to, you are going to have a lot of disappointments. I try not to expect too much of them myself.

    tigerliley
    September 28, 2003 - 04:36 pm
    reading and lurking.......

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 29, 2003 - 03:05 am
    Nice to see your name here, Tigerliley! Lurking (if not participating) encouraged.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 29, 2003 - 03:30 am
    "Celtic hordes had crossed the Alps before Hannibal and he too might have done it without extraordinary hardship had it not been for the hostility of the Alpine tribes, and the difficulty of getting his elephants through narrow or precipitous passages.

    "Early in September, after a climb of nine days, he reached the summit and found it covered with snow. There he let his men and animals rest for two days and then began the downward march through passes steeper than the ascent, over roads sometimes buried by landslides and often paved with ice. Many soldiers and beasts lost their footing and tumbled to their deaths.

    "Hannibal spurred on his despairing forces by pointing out to them, in the distant south, the green fields and sparkling streams of Italy. That paradise, he promised the, would soon be theirs. After seventeen days in the Alps they reached the plain and rested.

    "So many men and horses had been lost in the crossing that the army was now reduced to 26,000 -- less than half the force that had left New Carthage four months before. Had the Cisalpine Gauls resisted him as the Transalpine Gauls had done, Hannibal's progress might have ended there. But the Boii and other tribes welcomed him as a savior and joined him as allies.

    "The recently established Roman settlers fled southward across the Po."

    Any comments about this hazardous journey?

    Robby

    Bubble
    September 29, 2003 - 04:24 am
    Last month I flew over the Alps, in the opposite direction from Hannibal, and looking through the window of my Boeing, I thought on how easier it was nowadays than it was in Roman times. I even took a picture from atop but it was too sunny a day to show much.



    With elephants it seems even more impossible, knowing they hate the cold. How could they possibly feed them, in those mountains? The logistics are incredible.

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 29, 2003 - 04:53 am
    In the event that anyone here would like to guide some elephants over the Alps, here are some FACTS ABOUT ELEPHANTS you should know.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 29, 2003 - 05:16 am
    Here are the APUAN ALPS IN ITALY. Could these be the ones Hannibal crossed?

    Robby

    tooki
    September 29, 2003 - 05:45 am
    As might be expected, there is continuing discussion of his route. This site explains sources and furnishes a nice map.

    Where Did Hannibal Pasture His Elephants?

    If you get down far enough you will notice that of the route possibilities offered, each has its advocates. Mommsen, whom I mentioned above, advocates one route; Napeleon another. Whose choice would you take?

    tooki
    September 29, 2003 - 06:15 am
    The map at this site is an illustration from "The Visual Display of Quantitative Information," a book on how to display data, such things as graphs, charts, statistics. The map shows Hannibal's losses as he crossed the Alps. Notice that on the map the tan line diminishes as Hannibal's losses increase.

    Hannibal's Losses

    Translations are above the map. The route chosen to illustrate is the one advocated by Larosa.

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 29, 2003 - 06:37 am
    Excellent links, Tooki!!

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 29, 2003 - 07:39 am
    Hannibal's route according to Polybius and Livy

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 29, 2003 - 07:44 am
    "Faced with this second threat in seven years to the very life of Rome, the Senate mobilized all its resources and called upon the states of Italy to unite in the defense of their land. With their help Rome raised armies totaling 300,000 foot, 14,000 horse, and 456,000 reserves. One army, under the first of many famous Scipios, met Hannibal along the Ticino -- a small river flowing into the Po at Pavia.

    "Hannibal's Numidian cavalry put the Romans to flight and Scipio, dangerously wounded, was saved by the brave interposition of the son who was destined to meet Hannibal again at Zama sixteen years later.

    "At Lake Trasimene Hannibal encountered another Roman army, 30,000 strong, led by the tribune Caius Flaminius, and accompanied by slave dealers bringing fetters and chains for the prospective prisoners, whom they hoped to sell.

    "With part of his forces Hannibal decoyed this army into a plain surrounded by hills and woods that concealed most of his troops. At his signal the hidden columns debouched upon the Romans from every side and killed nearly all of them, including Flaminius himself (217)."

    Imagine -- an army carrying fetters and chains in preparation to converting prisoners into slaves.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 29, 2003 - 08:04 am
    Here is a map showing the location of PAVIA where Hannibal met the Roman Army -- many miles from Rome toward which they were headed.

    People did a lot of walking in those days.

    Robby

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    September 29, 2003 - 01:22 pm
    I have been in the Alps many times and it is awesome, to say the least. One 92 year old lady told me that in the last 40 years, she had never come down from her village of Ste. Agnès, which is about 2,400 feet above sea level. From a hill behind that village I saw clearly the island of Corsica at a distance.

    No wonder armies lost men crossing the Alps, but Northern people were sturdier than their southern counterparts who had become soft with the good life in a temperate climates which is not ideal for raising an army. Besides, we now know that when we reach that stage in the development of a civilization it is ripe for invasion by lesser populations far more able to sustain privation and hardships.

    Eloïse

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 29, 2003 - 07:49 pm
    Perhaps this PHOTO will bring a memory back to Eloise. Allow time to download.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 29, 2003 - 08:33 pm
    "Hannibal knew that he was still outnumbered ten to one by a resolute foe. His only hope lay in persuading at least some of the Italian states to revolt against Rome. He released all prisoners whom he had taken from Rome's allies, saying that he had come not to fight Italy but to set it free. He marched through flooded Etruria, where for four days no dry land could be found on which to pitch a camp, crossed the Apennines to the Adriatic, and there allowed his soldiers a long interval to refresh their energies and heal their wounds.

    "He himself suffered from severe ophthalmia, took no time to treat it, and lost the use of one eye. Then he marched down the eastern coast, inviting the Italian tribes to join him. None did. On the contrary, every city closed its gates against him and prepared to fight. As he moved south, his Gallic allies, interested only in their northern homes, began to desert him.

    "Plots against his life were so numerous that he had to assume ever new disguises. He begged his government to send him supplies and men by some Adriatic port. It refused. He asked his younger brother Hasdrubal, whom he had left in Spain, to organize an army and cross Gaul and the Alps to join him, but the Romans had invaded Spain, and Hasdrubal did not dare to leave it.

    "Ten years were to pass before his coming."

    "He came not to fight the nation but to set it free." Any familiar sound to that?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 30, 2003 - 03:44 am
    "Quintus Fabius Maximus, made dictator in 217, created an adjective by delaying as long as he could a direct enggement with Hannibal. In time, he believed, the invaders would be reduced by hunger, discord, and disease.

    "After a year this 'masterly inaction' irritated the Roman populace. The assembly overruled the Senate, as well as all precedents and logic, by electing Minucius Rufus codictator with Fabius. Against Fabius' advice Minucius advanced against the enemy, fell into a trap, was severely beaten, and thereafter understood why Hannibal said that he feared Fabius, who would not fight, more than Marcellus, who would.

    "A year later Fabius was deposed, and the Roman armies were entrusted to Lucius Aemilius Paulus and Caius Terrentius Varro. Paulus the aristocrat counseled caution. Varro of the plebs was all for action.

    As usual, caution lost the argument. Varro sought and found the Carthaginians at Cannae, in Apulia, some ten miles from the Adriatic coast. The Romans had 80,000 infantry, 6000 cavalry. Hannibal had 19,000 veterans, 16,000 unreliable Gauls, 10,000 horse. He had lured Varro to fight in a broad plain ideal for cavalty.

    "He had placed the Gauls at his center, expecting that they would give way. They did. When the Romans followed them into the pocket, the subtle Carthaginian, himself in the thick of the fray, ordered his veterans to close in upon the Roman flanks and bade his cavalry smash through the opposed horsemen to attack the legions from behind. The Roman army was surrounded, lost all chance of maneuvering, and was almost annihilated. 44,000 of them fell, including Paulus and eighty senators who had enlisted as soldiers. 10,000 escaped to Canusium, among them Varro and the Scipio who was to win the surname of Africanus Major (216). Hannibal lost 6000 men, two thirds of them Gauls. It was a supreme example of generalship, never bettered in history.

    "It ended the days of Roman reliance upon infantry, and set the lines of military tactics for two thousand years."

    Among other questions, I am wondering how there could be a co-dictator. Isn't that an oxymoron?

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 30, 2003 - 06:22 am
    "He came not to fight the nation but to set it free." It's a very old song, isn't it?

    My computer dictionary says the second meaning of the word "dictator" is "An ancient Roman magistrate appointed temporarily to deal with an immediate crisis or emergency." What's oxymoronic about having two? A country run by committee. Isn't ours?

    Mal

    tooki
    September 30, 2003 - 06:29 am
    figures highly in those old miniature soldier sets you can still buy over the internet. I imagine they would be great fun to arrange and deploy with Hannibal's logistic skills.

    Numidia was important during the Punic Wars and HERE is some brief information about it. You need to scroll past the alsphabet to get to Numidia.

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 30, 2003 - 06:36 am
    Timeline: Republic of Rome

    tooki
    September 30, 2003 - 06:44 am
    I can't stand it! I have to bore at least some of you with THESE. Some of the images are fuzzy.

    Bubble
    September 30, 2003 - 06:59 am
    Tooki, my son has been rewriting History and Roman wars when playing online with his strategy games of Civilization and Civilization II. The graphics are incredible. Lead soldiers are on the way out!
    Bubble

    DanielDe
    September 30, 2003 - 09:11 am


    Hello Robby, Hello everyone. I am Eloïse’s son. Hello especially to Malryn with whom I exchanged a few posts in “America’s Role in the World”.

    After the vivacious discussion that took place in that forum (America’s Role in the World) I cannot postpone any longer the invitation that Robby extended graciously, inviting me to join this discussion. It will be difficult to manage, but the stakes in this discussion are proportionate. If we are after the same goal as Voltaire, there is indeed much to do.

    I am rather sorry not to have joined the discussion sooner, for there are many topics about which I would have liked to share some thoughts. Nevertheless, I will share some thoughts after having perused more thoroughly what has been said already in this episode, if the discussion referring to Durant’s third book is not over yet Daniel

    DanielDe
    September 30, 2003 - 09:13 am
    I tried to use a HTML trick but that didn't work very well. Sorry about that!

    Marcie Schwarz
    September 30, 2003 - 09:17 am
    Hello, Daniel. Welcome. I removed the pre html tag in your message because it was causing the page to scroll horizontally. If you just put extra lines between paragraphs as you did in your post, it will automatically format correctly.

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 30, 2003 - 09:18 am
    Bonjour, Daniel. How nice to see you here! I'm anxious to hear your opinions about these Story of Civilization books we are discussing and hope you'll post often.

    Mal

    DanielDe
    September 30, 2003 - 09:25 am
    Thnak you Marcie for helping me out. I appreciated this. Vivacity is everywhere on SeniorNet.

    DanielDe
    September 30, 2003 - 09:28 am
    Mal, I didn't know you spoke french. I have a lot of reading to do, so it will take some time. I am looking forward to more exchanges so I will do my best to follow up. My pleasure to hear from you.

    Daniel

    Marcie Schwarz
    September 30, 2003 - 09:29 am
    I am glad you are participating, here, Daniel. I think you will find this discussion very vivacious!

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 30, 2003 - 09:34 am
    Daniel, I'm a singer and have sung many, many French songs and operatic arias. I've now lost confidence when it comes to speaking it, but I understand much spoken French and read it fairly well.

    Mal

    DanielDe
    September 30, 2003 - 09:50 am
    I am eager to follow the “rules of engagement” that Robby set forth in the beginning. So I will state the basis from which I draw my perception of this Civilization. My perception is based on a biblical Christian worldview. In short, it means that I believe that the world and mankind were created by God. That the Bible is the book in which he revealed His overall goal for this Creation and the tools that he gave us to manage our way in History. He is the ultimate standard of value and He controls the overall direction of Time.

    This is not to mean everything has been preordained, that the world is a clock work mechanism that will end more or less when the fuel stock extinguishes. Further, that we only need to read the Bible in order in order to find all solutions. That would be an insult to mankind, given its mandate to manage the Creation, freewill, capacity to create wealth and influence the direction of History. Discussions as this one would be hopelessly fruitless.

    On the contrary, as an economist, I have been able to discover that not all banking systems are consistent with the principles that govern the Creation. Central banking as we know it, is not consistent those principles; whereas free banking is. But free banking has not been allowed to expand as a form or money management organization. Central banking is the driving force behind the market rationale that is pushing itself on the rest of the world and that has begun to create a backlash, of which September 11 was but a preview.

    From my point of view, we are at a climactic point and our Western Civilization is about to take a huge turn. I guess the idea here is to follow Voltaire and ask: ”How did we get there?” and further “Where are we going?” . I will dig into Durant’s perspective to draw some parallels.

    DanielDe
    September 30, 2003 - 09:59 am
    Mal, you have touched a sensitive spot. I think singing is the most beautiful instrument that was given. The voice is for me the instrument which is closest to a person's (the singer's) spirit and therefore, capable of touching other people's hearts. I would love to hear you sing.

    HubertPaul
    September 30, 2003 - 10:28 am
    DanielDE:"..........it means that I believe that the world and manking were created by God........" "biblical Christian world view..."

    When 6000 years ago?

    Ooooops,"I am eager to follow the “rules of engagement” that Robby set forth in the beginning."

    DanielDe
    September 30, 2003 - 10:47 am
    It was interesting to follow Tooki’s map link in post #561. Last summer, I participated in a family camp with my son. It was located near Montelimar in France. In fact, the location was “Poet Laval”, seven kilometres away from “Dieulefit” which you can read on the map. During that time, we spent one afternoon in “Nyons” (also on the map), where we (Micaël and I) spent about three hours on a terrace. I was slowly sipping a Pastis while Micaël drank some fruit drink. Some friends came to join us. We ended up being about 12 people around the table until the flock slowly disseminated back into the landscape. It was a hot (but dry) sunny afternoon (41 degrees Celsius). Little did I know that I was on that very path where Hannibal came through!

    In Poet Laval, there was a hotel named “Templar’s Hotel” (free translation). I thought, could this be the real thing? Sure enough, they made no secret of their affiliation with the famous Templars. You could see the cross and other paraphernalia (I do not know yet how to provide links; but I will train for it.) But I suppose we will discuss those later down the timeline.

    It is amazing how in Europe, the past can be so “present”.

    tooki
    September 30, 2003 - 11:13 am
    HERE'S the site that Bubble (post 575) mentioned. Daniel De, are you the one who plays?

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    September 30, 2003 - 11:38 am
    Here are some pictures of the The Alps where Daniel takes me every time I visit Switzerland.

    Daniel, I am pleased to see that you found some time to participate in S of C with us. I will send you an email concerning HTML I am sure you will put it to good use for our benefit.

    DanielDe
    September 30, 2003 - 11:47 am
    Well, Tooki, I haven't played on that internet site. Nevertheless, I feel the world to be a real and very open game, in which finding a part to play is not that easy. Have you tried writing history? For my part, I had a chance occasion in which I was able to influence the way financial decision making is done here in the Canton de Vaud, in the area of care for the elderly. The game took ten years to come to a close, it cost 3 million Swiss Francs. I was pit against underministers and representatives of elderly home associations. But I won. The result is a system which calculates budgets for the homes according to the needs of the elderly and not according the personal wishes and whims of the home directors or civil servants. It was successful enough to have been adopted by three other Cantons. We can talk about that game if you want.

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 30, 2003 - 02:00 pm
    This past Sunday my daughter, Dorian, and I had the pleasure of meeting a participant in this discussion, georgehd. Since I think it's nice to know the people with whom we discuss many things, I have posted a link below so you can see a picture of us.

    georghd, Dorian and Mal

    tooki
    September 30, 2003 - 04:39 pm
    Thank you for posting the photos, Mal. They were charming, and everyone looks relaxed, pleased, and full! I'll post a picture of myself as soon as I learn more about my digital camera. I thought I was doing great to learn how to post a link in HTML!

    About Games: Do you, Daniel De, or anyone else who's interested, think games are open or closed? When the game is concluded, is it over? Are games finite or open ended systems? Do you take what you learned from one game and use it in the next? I think that one's views about games has much to do with their views of the world.

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 30, 2003 - 05:54 pm
    The Rules of Engagement, as Daniel puts it, regarding expressing personal religious views was stated at the start of Caesar and Christ but as a number of people have entered this forum since its inception, it is apropos to repeat them.



    "To my knowledge, no civilization of any sort has existed without some sort of ritual which one can call religious. For this reason, it will be impossible to participate in this forum without discussing "religion" from time to time.



    "However, the following guidelines will be enforced by the Discussion Leader to avoid confrontations and digressions about personal religious views.



    "1 - You may make one post describing your own beliefs related to religion (whether you have a religious faith or do not) in order to explain your viewpoint toward the topic at hand. Making additional posts about your religious beliefs or faith is not permitted.


    2 - Do not speak of your religion or absence of religious beliefs as "the truth."


    3 - Do not attempt to change another's conviction about religion.



    "Comments about issues are welcomed. Negative comments about other participants are not permitted.



    "Those participants who do not believe they are being treated fairly in this respect always have the right to contact Marcie, Director of Education. I will follow her guidance."



    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 30, 2003 - 05:58 pm
    What a compliment to have Marcie, the Director of Education of the ENTIRE Senior Net, describe this discussion group as "very vivacious!"

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 30, 2003 - 06:10 pm
    Durant continues (an aside to Daniel and other newcomers -- the GREEN quotes in the Heading are changed periodically and let us know in which section of the book we are located):--

    "Samnites, Bruttians, Lucanians, Metapontum, Thurii, Crotona, Locri, and Capua joined Cisalpine Gaul in attaching themselves to Hannibal. Only Umbria, Latium, and Etruria remained firm.

    "Hicro of Syracuse was loyal to the death, but his successors declared for Carthage. Philip V of Macedon, fearful of Roman expansion through Illyria into the east, allied himself with Hannibal and declared war upon Rome. Carthage herself became interested and sent Hannibal meager reinforcements and supplies.

    "Some of the young Roman nobles among the survivors at Canusium thought the situation hopeless and meditated flight to Greece, but Scipio shamed them into courage.

    "Rome was for a month hysterical with terror. Only a small garrison remained to protect it against Hannibal. Matrons of high family ran weeping to the temples and cleansed with their hair the statues of the gods. Some whose husbands and sons had fallen battle in cohabited with foreigners and slaves lest their strain should die.

    "To regain the favor of obviously offended deities the Senate again sanctioned human sacrifice and buried alive two Gauls and two Greeks."

    Could one say that at the threat of death, the need for basic survival seems to take over?

    Robby

    DanielDe
    September 30, 2003 - 09:19 pm
    Thank you Mal for posting your pictures. I exchanged a few posts with georghd and I am glad to know you and him and your daughter better.

    I should add for those that do not know that my son Micaël - who will be twenty this october - has Down's Syndrome. I knew that there was a risk when his mother was pregnant; she was 40 at the time. But we never considered testing for this because "doing away" with a child was not an option we accepted. Caring for him indeed is a costly venture. But here in Switzerland, the State pitches in to such an extent, that our lives seem practically normal in spite of his handicap. He has contributed to my understanding of Life to such a degree.

    Looking at the practices of past Civilizations such as sacrificing human beings, they seem barbaric from today's perspective. But have we really done away with the process? Today's wars are a reaction to major political threats. Whether we want it or not, there are ruling beliefs, the non-conformity to which may be perceived as a deadly threat to one's culture and worth many sacrifices ...

    DanielDe
    September 30, 2003 - 10:22 pm
    Tooki, if we define an open game, one in which entry is totally free, we cannot say that all games are open. The one I referred to had a very limited access. I had the privilege of having been invited at the table. Some games can be entered freely, but one needs to understand the rules in order be able to stay in. In some games, one can become a player in spite of one’s self.

    Rules of a game may evolve, depending on the level at which one plays.

    Some tactics in some games are transferable to other games.

    Games are always formatted in time, like innings and games in baseball, or games, set and matches in tennis, or again half times in (European) football. So there are end points but only to enable the game to start over. They can be set in larger formats like seasons. Some never end.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 1, 2003 - 02:43 am
    Daniel:--I would be interested in your comments about the information presented in Post 595.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 1, 2003 - 04:31 am
    I think the need for basic survival takes over in varying degrees any time a human being is threatened and fear is aroused.

    In times of great crisis, such as what is mentioned in Robby's post #859, people can behave in very emotional ways. The women cleaned the statues of gods with their hair. Two Gauls and two Greeks were sacrificed to appease the gods. Rather than reasoning out what was happening and why, the Romans apparently believed that they had somehow offended their gods, who were punishing them by threatening to destroy them. They were, in a word, overcome with fear.

    I wonder if the women who cohabited with foreigners and slaves after their husbands and sons had been killed were motivated to do this because they wanted to perpetuate their line as much as they wanted to cling to someone, anyone at all, because they were so afraid? This need to be close to someone also happens during life-threatening crises. Emotion takes over, and when that occurs, anything can happen.

    What I see here is an immensely powerful force in the form of a warrior and world conqueror named Hannibal. I see chaos because of fear of this man. Does order follow after chaos? We'll see.

    Mal

    tooki
    October 1, 2003 - 06:12 am
    Doesn't he look thoughtful? Or perhaps it's careworn. The Warrior, Hannibal

    tooki
    October 1, 2003 - 07:00 am
    The ebb and flow of these three Punic wars, the shifting borders of the conquered territories, and the vast amount of ground covered are, for me, hard to follow. THIS MAP visually clarifies these momentous events. Sorry about the flashing lights; try to ignore them because the map is good. Notice that you change the routes and borders by clicking on the boxes below the map.

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 1, 2003 - 08:29 am
    More about Hannibal. With maps

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    October 1, 2003 - 09:56 am
    "Col du Petit Saint Bernard; this route has been advocated by Barthold Niebuhr, Theodor Mommsen, Lehmann, Viedebrandt, H. Kiepert and Francis de Conninck Mont Cenis; advocated by Napoleon Bonaparte and H. Nissen Col du Clapier; advocated by Perrin, Azan, Collins, Wilkinson, and Serge Lancel Col du Mont Genèvre; advocated by Neumann, Fuchs, Gaetano de Sanctis and Peter Connolly Col de la Croix Col de la Traversette: advocated by Sir Gavin de Beer and A. Guilleaume"

    I went over the "Col du Galibier" once on the first of July 19?? and we drove on snow.

    Mal, In your link, I took out this section because it mentions the 39 elephants in Hannibel's crossing of the Alps. When they encountered water, they built rafts for them!!! Wow. Manpower was cheap then even if there was no overpopulation.

    Eloïse

    DanielDe
    October 1, 2003 - 10:33 am
    The question put by Robby in post #595 reminds me of the work of Dr Hans Selye (1907-1982), an Austrian endocrinologist who taught at McGill University in Montreal - where I also studied from 1976 to 1980. Dr Selye studied closely the phenomenon of stress. I remember a television interview in which he spoke about the phenomenon of collective stress. It can be observed in circumstances where a crowd is gathered. Take for instance a subway car. Suppose that it is forced to stop between two stations and that a fire starts on board. The car needs to be evacuated but the emergency system for opening the doors does not work. Action needs to be taken and the goal is obvious to everyone: GETTING OUT OF THERE. Suppose now that there is an engineer in the car that has organizational capacities, and that starts suggesting solutions out loud. Very quickly, people will gather around him and de facto designate him as leader, by implicitely submitting to his natural authority. Within a few seconds, a shapeless and nameless crowd transformed into a community, decided on a government and voted a leader. Collective stress: that also relates with the fear factor that Malryn mentioned.

    Concerning the worship to the roman gods, what strikes me is the fact that the community as a whole – here represented by the senate, the collective of the most prominent men of their civilization – believed that their gods CONTROLLED the direction of Time (or History), otherwise they would not have made a political decision to sacrifice human lives to them. Whatever they were, those gods exerted a tremendous influence over that civilization.

    Now I find so interesting to read Mal’s comment: ” Rather than reasoning out what was happening and why, the Romans apparently believed that they had somehow offended their gods”. We can compare Mal’s perception of the reaction that she would have had in her Modern mind, and the ancient civilization’s reaction. This is a clear demonstration of the influence of the Enlightenment on man’s capacity to shape events. Modernity impregnates Mal’s thoughts here; but all those concepts are totally foreign to the Roman civilization at the time. What do you say Mal?

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 1, 2003 - 10:49 am
    DANIEL, I say that if there were Ancient Greeks who managed with reasoning and logical philosophies to surmount irrational fear of their gods; then there must have been Romans who did the same. The capability of human beings to use the faculty of reason is not exclusive to modernity. Hannibal's strategies and victories were not the product of emotionality.

    Mal

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    October 1, 2003 - 11:39 am
    I remember vividly when we were discussing "Democracy in America", the author Alexis de Tocqueville mentioned that when there is an emergency threatening the life of a collectivity, it will choose a most likely candidate as a leader who seems to have organizational skills that is deemed necessary to deal with the emergency and that collectivity will push him in a position of power where he/she can make decisions and everyone will be satisfied that it is the best one for the situation. During 9/11 America rallied around their leader as they should.

    I don't know about "Hannibal's strategies and victories were not the product of emotionality." Mal, sorry.

    Eloïse

    DanielDe
    October 1, 2003 - 11:39 am
    Yes MAL, excellent point. Socrates (470-399 BC) did seek truth by taking thought alone. And his work was pursued by Plato (427-347 BC) and Aristotle (384-322 BC). Those were the early days of “rationalism”. What I was trying to say was that that rationalism had not at that time penetrated all levels of society to the extent that it has nowadays. The influence of the spiritual world still held a prominent place in their culture.

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 1, 2003 - 03:22 pm
    ELOISE, never apologize for a point of view. My view is that if Hannibal's tactics had been prompted by random emotionality and irrationality, he never would have gotten himself and so many others over the Alps; just one example. Motives are yet another, separate and different thing to consider.

    DANIEL, do you really think all that many people today are rational and live by reason? Greek and Roman gods were responsible, these Ancient people thought, for mysteries that today can be explained and proven by science a good part of the time. I do not call obeisance and worship which is caused by ignorance and fear "spirituality".

    Mal

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 1, 2003 - 03:38 pm
    "Though the Romans were now so overwhelmingly defeated, and their military reputation had been destroyed, yet by the peculiar virtues of their constitution, and by wise counsel, they not only recovered their supremacy in Italy but in a few years made themselvs masters of the world.

    "The class war ceased, and all groups rushed to the rescue of the state. Taxes had already risen apparently beyond tolerance. Now the citizens, even widows and children, voluntarily brought their secret savings to the Treasury. Every male who could bear arms was called to the colors. Slaves were accepted in the levies and were promised freedom in the event of victory.

    "Not a single soldier would consent to receive pay. Rome prepared to contest every inch of ground against the new lion of Carthage."

    What on earth is going on here? The experience and emotions of defeat seem to be leading toward victory. War between the classes disappeared. People united. They followed their constitution. Everyone seemed willing to forego personal financial profit and to give "all" to the state.

    What happened to that urge for personal survival? Why was the state becoming more important than the individual? "Is a puzzlement!"

    Any reactions to the GREEN quote which begins "The Romans most ...?"

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 1, 2003 - 03:56 pm
    We were not near defeat either time, but didn't the American people unite after Pearl Harbor and the September 11, 2001 attacks on this country, even to the point of standing behind two presidents whom some people were unable to stand before then? This leads to a question about whether people instinctively unite and willingly do without when they and everything they have and believe in is seriously threatened. What do packs of animals do in extreme danger? Is this a kind of primitive behavior?

    I want to look at the Roman Constitution before I comment on that.

    Mal

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 1, 2003 - 05:33 pm
    Read about PATRIOTISM AND SELF-SACRIFICE in Ancient Rome in this link.

    Robby

    mburke
    October 1, 2003 - 07:39 pm
    I have only today come upon Senior Net and this discussion and now know why I transported my Story of Civilization (all ten volumns) to Florida with me 2 months ago. Had to dispose of so many books it broke my heart, but kept the important ones. Haven't read them in years - now have a reason to, and will follow your discussions. Enjoy all the comments and will learn something - it is never too late.

    tooki
    October 1, 2003 - 08:40 pm
    Certainly a factor in the Romans' behavior in the face of adversity was the political situation. They regrouped after the defeat at Cannae because their life as a nation was at stake. The Mediterranean was not big enought to hold both the Romans and the Carthegians. The Punic Wars were fought to determine who would control the western part of the Med. The political travail endured by the Romans turned then from a country defending itself and its lands to an imperialist empire. On the map of the known world at this time, was it predestined that these two entities had to meet head on?

    DanielDe
    October 1, 2003 - 10:22 pm
    MAL : There are not many people that today would turn to a god to find practical solutions. If we look at the evolution of history by taking giant steps, we could separate history very roughly from the time of Socrates into these periods: The Geeks (500 – 100 BC), the Roman world (100 BC – 400 AD), Middle Ages (400 – 1300 AD), Renaissance (1300 – 1500), Reformation (1500 1600), Enlightenment (1600 – 1800), and Process philosophy (1800 – today). By process philosophy, we mean theories based on evolution or dialectical systems of thought. Each period contains a demarcation by pulling away from organized cult towards a deity. The advent of Darwinism, Marxism and Psychiatry in the 19th century provoked a definite distancing of the people from spirituality. But this is not to say that spirituality is not a need or not important. It means that it has been taken away from substantive decision making in the organization of society. This can be attributed mainly to the separation between Church and the State that was brought during Enlightenment and deepened with process philosophy.

    From that standpoint, it is interesting to observe how the Romans included worship to their gods as part of the management of war and of their country. Of course, today there are many political leaders who confess their beliefs and that turn to their god for answers. But it is part of a personal process, not part of the political process.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 2, 2003 - 03:40 am
    MBurke:--We are most pleased to have you join us here. Incidentally, there are eleven volumes in the set, not ten. We have been dicussing Durant's "Story of Civilization" for approximately two years and have already covered the first two volumes, "Our Oriental Heritage," and "The Life of Greece."

    Most of us here are not experts in this area but are trying to answer the question posed by Voltaire in the Heading above. We are looking forward to your thoughts.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 2, 2003 - 03:47 am
    Daniel:--The divisions into which one can examine history that you mention in your post are similar to the divisions the Durants used in writing their volumes. It will be interesting as each of us in this discussion group becomes older (and wiser?) to watch the process.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 2, 2003 - 04:06 am
    "Hannibal did not come. His 40,000 men were too small a force, he thought, to besiege a city to whose defense many armies would converge from still loyal states. If he took it, how could he hold it? His Italian allies, instead of strengthening, weakened him. Rome and her friends were raising forces to attack them, and without his help they would succumb.

    "His aides reproached his caution, and one of them remarked, sadly, 'The gods have not given all their gifts to one man. You know how to win victory, Hannibal, but you do not know how to use it.' Hannibal decided to wait until Carthage, Macedon, and Syracuse could unite with him in a multiple offensive that would retake Sicily, Sardinia, Corsica, and Illyria, and compel Rome to confine her power to Italy. He releaased all captives except Romans, and offered these to Rome for a small ransom.

    "When the Senate refused this, he sent most of them to Carthage as slaves and forced the rest, in Roman style, to amuse his men by gladiatorial combats, even to the death.

    "He besieged and took several towns and then led his army to winter in Capra. It was the most pleasant and dangerous place that he could have chosen. This second city of Italy -- some twelve miles north of Naples -- had learned from the Etruscans and the Greeks the vices as well as the graces of civilization. Hannibal's troops felt entitled to indulge for a season the flesh that had borne so many hardships and wounds. They were never again the invincible soldiers who had through many campaigns been formed in their master's Spartan image.

    "In the next five years Hannibal led them to some minor successes. While they were so engaged, the Romans laid siege to Capua. Hannibal sought to relieve it by marching to within a few miles of Rome. The Romans raised twenty-five new legions -- 200,000 men -- and Hannibal, still limited to 40,000, retired to the south. In 211 Capua fell. Its leaders, who had let loose a massacre of Romans in the city, were beheaded or committed suicide. The populaton, which had strongly supported Hannibal, was dispersed throughout Italy.

    "A year before, Marcellus had taken Syracuse. A year later Agrigentum yielded to Rome."

    As everyone here knows, this is not a political discussion group and therefore we refrain from naming figures on today's political stage, but perhaps of interest to us in this day and age is the comment of Hannibal's aides:-"You know how to win victory but you do not know how to use it."

    Perhaps also of interest is the fact that Hannibal's army was not weakened in combat but became weaker during the time they paused to engage in pleasures of the flesh. Or as Durant puts it, "the vices of civilization." Where is this "progress" that we speak of here from time to time?

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 2, 2003 - 04:27 am
    DANIEL, I'm certainly relieved to know that you think "there are not many people that today would turn to a god to find practical solutions." I often wonder about that right now in my part of the world, especially with some people in very high places. One of them in the not-so-distant past would not make national or world decisions without first consulting his astrological advisor.

    Creationism vs Darwinism is still an issue here. There are many who consider psychiatry "bunk", including my scientist ex-husband who feels, as many intellectual types do, that it is an inexact science.

    I see the influence of an over-abundance of myth and superstition in this 21st century world. I also think there can be fine spirituality without organized religion and any god at all.

    By the way, I'm glad you made room for "Geeks" in our historical past (and present?) I love that typo! The veracity of it made me smile.

    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 2, 2003 - 04:44 am
    Maybe if these lean, mean, testosterone-fired men directed their attention more often to the "vices of civilization" and the comforts of home there wouldn't be as many wars?

    ( If wishes were fishes, we'd all eat tonight. )

    Mal

    DanielDe
    October 2, 2003 - 06:10 am
    MAL, I hadn’t noticed the typo until you pointed it out. What a laugh ... Geeks!

    Tookie, the question you put in your post #613 can be tied to fatalism. Is anyone interested in hearing that the future has already been written? For my part, I don’t believe it has been. Otherwise to what would amount the freedom that we have if not but an illusion? There are many signs, even from a Christian point of view, that God is very patient; meaning that if he is waiting for a certain outcome that is taking a long (too long) time to come around, the implication clearly is that the future of individuals, and thus that of a community – be it Carthaginian or Roman – is not written ahead of time. History is not unfolding according to a specific preordained pattern, though some elements in it can be put there for a specific goal for mankind as a whole.

    Robby, I’m still on your post #609. Having to relate to you all through a time lag of at least 6 hours, and between work shifts, I am a bit slow. I apologize.

    What happened to individualism? That is a whopper! Individuality was slow in the making. Interestingly, it may have been Judeo-Christianity that fostered the concept at a very early stage. But it was not until Enlightenment that it reached maturity. Today, the sociological characteristic may have imploded. The attractiveness of the notion can be seen readily when pictured with its corollary, individual freedom. However, an individual can only be defined with respect to the community to which he belongs: values, History, relationships, recognized skills, value imputed, etc. In the Judeo-Christian framework, there is a very strong community design in which individual freedom is promoted, but for which very specific bounds are set. Modernity (Enlightenment) took away the Church stronghold on individual freedom. I think it was a necessary move. But then, this means that every individual must understand and manage on his own, (with the help of God for some), the set of boundaries that will define his freedom; and this can only be done with proper training. Guess what? Others saw to it that such training never take place, as a way to destroy Christianity. So that is a problem for Christians to solve. But the overall effect or tendency is to leave individuality without a community and a meaning, leaving the individual to be a non-entity. This is one negative outcome of Postmodernity.

    Coming back to the Romans, it helps to remember that today’s Italians are yesterdays Romans. 2000 years ago, community was a very strong defining factor for each Roman (Italian) individual. Individuality as we know it (individuals in isolation) had not spread. Now, given the level of development of the Roman community – a greatly advanced society that had an almost modern banking system – Romans had great faith in their potential. They believed that they could conquer the world and were willing to sacrifice to reach their common goal. Dr Selye’s analysis is also helpful here.

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 2, 2003 - 06:54 am
    This doesn't have anything to do with Ancient civilizations (or does it?), but it's important, and it's happening at the university right in the town where I live.

    Education costs covered for the needy

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 2, 2003 - 06:56 am
    Daniel says:--"Today’s Italians are yesterday's Romans."

    Could we also say that today's French and Spanish are also yesterday's Romans?

    Robby

    DanielDe
    October 2, 2003 - 09:00 am
    Robby, I am quoting from a recent television movie called Napoleon. The scene is where the Austrian ambassador Metternich comes to visit Napoleon. This takes place right after the Russian Campaign. The French army is bloodless, down trodden and under equipped. Upon arriving at the castle, he speaks with General De Godincourt about Napoleon’s Austrian wife. She had become a French Citizen and the General, sensing that the Ambassador had belligerent intentions, emphasized this to him. The Ambassador responded to him, eyeball to eyeball: “Sir, only the French are French.”

    I would not add anything to that declaration as it matches my own impression of the French people – which I have become quite familiar with. At the time, France was an Empire though it did not match Rome’s in size and power. This they had in common with the Romans, but they were not Yesterday’s Romans.

    As to the Spaniards, they were a conquered people for a long time, under the Romans, and under the Muslims. They did not have the same conquering spirit as the Portuguese for instance. My mother Eloïse could speak about them more than I could. But I know a Spaniard. His name is Juan Antonio. He is my son Micaël’s football coach. He is a true blood Spaniard and I find that he has little in common with the Italians. The Spaniards are much more subdued, from my point of view.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 2, 2003 - 09:10 am
    Then please help me, Daniel. What makes the Italians Roman?

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 2, 2003 - 09:40 am
    You know something? I think some of my DNA and bloodline come from those early Romans who cruised around England making their own whatever they could find, including at least one of my very English ancestors. There were pictures of Roman ruins in Chester in Photos Then and Now not so very long ago.

    Mal

    DanielDe
    October 2, 2003 - 10:07 am
    Robby, My approach was rather simplistic. Culturally speaking, Italians have a profile which can be recognized everywhere. This prompted me to draw a parallel between the uniting spirit which they showed in the face of Carthaginian warfare and the cultural profile which identifies them in their unique way.

    The formal link between the Italians as we know them today and their Roman ancestors is a very complex one. The following text in drawn from Britannica Encyclopaedia and summarizes what could be said in a few words on that topic.

    "Italians cannot be typified by any one physical characteristic, a fact that may be explained by the past domination of parts of the peninsula by different peoples. The Etruscans in Tuscany and Umbria and the Greeks in the south preceded the Romans, who “Latinized” the whole country and maintained unity until the 5th century. Jews arrived in Italy during the Roman Republic, remaining until the present day. With the collapse of the Roman Empire in the West, Italy suffered invasions and colonization, which inevitably affected its ethnic composition. With some exceptions, the north was penetrated by Germanic tribes crossing the Alps, while the south was colonized by Mediterranean peoples arriving by sea. The Byzantines were dominant in the south for five centuries, coinciding with the supremacy of the Lombards (a Germanic tribe) in Benevento and other parts of the mainland. In the 9th century Sicily was invaded by the Saracens, who remained until the Norman invasion in the early 11th century. The Normans were succeeded by the Aragonese in 1282; in 1720 Sicily came under Austrian rule. This mixed ethnic heritage explains the smattering of light-eyed, blond Sicilians in a predominantly dark-eyed, dark-haired race. Except for the Saracen domination, the Kingdom of Naples, which formed the lower part of the peninsula, had a similar experience, whereas the northern part of Italy, separated from the south by the Papal States, was much more influenced by the dominant force of the Austrians. The Austrian admixture, combined with the earlier barbarian invasions, may account for the greater frequency of light-eyed, blond Italians originating in the north. The ethnic mixing continues to the present day. Since the 1970s, Italy has been receiving immigrants from a number of Third World countries. A predominantly female migration from the Philippines and other Asian countries compares with a predominantly male influx from North Africa. Other African and Latin-American countries are also represented, as is eastern Europe with a more recent wave of immigrants. In total more than one million foreigners reside on Italian territory."

    "Linguistic composition: Standard Italian has only been in existence since the unification of Italy in the 1860s. The Italians were slow to adopt the parlance of the new nation-state, identifying much more strongly with their regional dialects. The eventual supremacy of the standard language owes much to the advent of television, which has introduced it into almost every home in the country. Emigration in the late 19th and early 20th century also played an important role in spreading the standard language; many local dialects had no written form, obliging Italians to learn Italian in order to write to their relatives. The extremely rich and, hitherto, resilient tapestry of dialects and foreign languages upon which standard Italian has gradually been superimposed reveal much about Italy's cultural history. Not surprisingly, the greatest divergence from standard Italian is found in border areas, in the mountains, and on the islands of Sicily and Sardinia. Only a few languages in limited geographic areas enjoy any legal protection or recognition. These are French , in Valle d'Aosta; German and Ladin in some parts of the Alto-Adige (Südtirol); Slovene in the province of Trieste; Friulian and Sardinian , spoken by the two largest linguistic minorities in Italy, received official recognition in 1992. Linguistic minorities persisting in the Alps are, broadly speaking, the result of migratory movements from neighbouring countries or changes in the borderline."

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 2, 2003 - 02:06 pm

    "I'm never less at leisure than when at leisure, or less alone than when alone."

    ~ Scipio Africanus


    A conversation between Scipio and Hannibal, recorded by Livy:

    Scipio had asked Hannibal whom he considered to be the greatest commander in the world. "'Alexander [the Great of Macedonia],' was the reply. [Scipio] Africanus then asked whom he would put second, and Hannibal replied, 'Pyrrhus.' On Scipio's again asking whom he regarded as the third, Hannibal, without hesitating, answered, 'Myself.' Scipio smiled and asked, 'What would you say if you had vanquished me?' 'In that case,' replied Hannibal, 'I should say that I surpassed Alexander and Pyrrhus, and all other commanders in the world.'"

    moxiect
    October 2, 2003 - 02:10 pm
    Now I am totally confused! Daniel Robby asked what makes a Roman and Italian. I am asking what makes you think a Sicilian is and Italian or Roman for that matter? I know that the Island of Sicily was invaded many times over and was given to Italy in the 1940's.

    Shasta Sills
    October 2, 2003 - 03:11 pm
    I'm trying to understand Scipio's observation. Does he mean when he is at leisure, he is bored because he has nothing to do? And does he mean that when he is alone, he has to put up with himself, which spoils his solitude?

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 2, 2003 - 07:18 pm
    Some people from Central and South America call themselves Latinos. And aren't Spanish and French called Romance Languages?

    Robby

    moxiect
    October 2, 2003 - 07:24 pm


    Robby

    The answer to your post#630 is YES. They are 2 out of the 7.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 2, 2003 - 07:26 pm
    Moxie:--You mean I have to wait to hear the names of the other five?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 2, 2003 - 08:06 pm
    Durant continues:--

    "A Roman army under the two older Scipios had been sent to Spain to keep Hasdrubal occupied. They defeated him at the Ebro (215). Both of them were soon afterward killed in battle, and their gains were being lost when their son and nephew, Scipio Africanus, was dispatched to the Spanish command.

    "He was but twenty-four, far below the legal age for so responsible a position. The Senate was willing to stretch the constitution to save the state, and the assembly was by this time voluntarily subordinating itself to the Senate. The people admired him not only because he was handsome and eloquent, intelligent and brave, but pious, courteous, and just. It was his custom, before undertaking an enterprise, to commune with the gods in the temples on the Capitol, and after his victories, to reward them with hecatombs.

    He believed -- or represented -- himself, to be a favorite of Heaven. His successes spread the belief and filled his followers with confidence. He soon restored discipline among the troops, captured Nova Carthage after a long siege, and scruplously turned over to the Treasury the precious metal and stones that there fell into his hands.

    "Most of the Spanish cities surrendered to him, and by 205 Spain had become a Roman province."

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 2, 2003 - 08:16 pm
    Here is a MAP of the area now being discussed.

    Robby

    3kings
    October 2, 2003 - 08:21 pm
    DanielDe INDIVIDUALISM. Is there some technical definition of the word, that means something other than acting as an individual ? I ask, because I'm puzzled by your reference to it not occurring till round about Renaissance time.

    Among mammalian species at least, individual animals act as unique self aware entities. That is what I think of as individualism, but perhaps I misunderstand the term. Thus individualism would seem to be as old as mammals are.

    Also, your remark as follows...

    Romans had great faith in their potential. They believed that they could conquer the world and were willing to sacrifice to reach their common goal.

    Would it not be more likely, that Romans were driven, not by ideas about potential, but by greed to possess desirable real estate, just as the rest of us always have been?

    And lastly ( ! ) could it be that the Roman failure to develop a banking system could have been the great difficulty that individuals had with performing the simplest arithmetic? Their numeral system made it very difficult to add even two numbers together, let alone a column of figures. They could all count, but I doubt that many could add. === Trevor

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 2, 2003 - 08:26 pm
    "Hasdrubal's main force had escaped and now crossed Gaul and the Alps into Italy. The young leader's message to Hannibal was intercepted, and his plan of campaign was revealed to Rome. A Roman army met his modest force at the Metaurus River (207) and defeated him despite his excellent generalship. Seeing the battle lost and all hope of reaching his brother gone, Hasdrubal leaped into the midst of the legions and took death in his stride.

    "The Roman historians, perhaps romancing, tell us that the victor cut off the youth's head and sent it through Apulia to be cast over the ramparts into Hannibal's camp. Broken in spirit by the fate of a brother whom he had dearly loved, Hannibal withdrew his thinned-out forces to Bruttium.

    "Carthage sent him a hundred ships laden with men and food, but a gale drove the vessels to Sardinia, where a Roman fleet sank or captured eighty of them. The rest fled home."

    Robby

    DanielDe
    October 2, 2003 - 11:24 pm
    Moxiect, About Sicilians, the text in quotes in my post #626 describes what happened in the Italian peninsula AFTER the fall of the empire. What was left of the Romans afterwards was confined to the Roman city, though a very large one. There language and culture ceased to be a common denominator. It was not until many centuries later, around 1860, that Italy as we know it today appeared as a country.

    Robby, Post #617 leaves little to say it seems. What could we say about an army on a campaign trail that lowers its defences? It is not surprising then that they did not win the war. So, indeed, important mistakes in judgement can be made in very high places and they may very well alter the course of history. Winning a war is one thing, governing is yet another. Each require different skills.

    Trevor, At a glance, individualism existed for as long as individuals did. What I am referring to is a social characteristic of our day and age, where individuals have become the kings of society. Consumers are the driving force of the economy, and the economy has supplanted all other values in the priorities. Remember “It’s the Economy stupid”, Clinton had understood that today, what makes the world turn is the income that each of us can take home for our individual hedonist satisfactions. Gone is the day where a behaviour such as Scipio Africanus’ is a model to follow.

    But the best way to look into it is to see how Postmodernism has affected our society. Here a text that I posted in Curious Minds recently about that. I am quoting a French author, Alfred Kuen. But if you want a short english bibliography on the subject, simply send me an email and I will send the list right back.

    Postmodernism has been around approximately for the past 40 or 50 years or so. The advent of the two wars marked an end to the grand optimism which rationalist modern thinking lead the whole world to believe: that progress was inevitable and would continue on indefinitely. Science has given way to a dehumanizing technology; the prevalence of war maintains a feeling of insecurity; with progress it seems that the environment is degrading.

    “In Modernist thinking, knowledge was good, objective and capable of discovering truth using rational procedures. These three axioms have been supplanted by postmodernism which is not convinced anymore that knowledge is good (too many bad fruits in the 20th century), it cannot be objective for there is no objective world outside us (the human beings), truth does not limit itself to rational aspects; man is a whole which includes his emotions and relations with his environment.”

    “For the Postmodernist, truth is purely subjective: truth is what has meaning for me. If something else has meaning for you, than that will become your truth”.

    “Globally speaking, Postmodernity overturns Modernity. To the promises of Modernism: linear progress, rationality, absolute truth; Postmodernists prefer discontinuity, difference, fragmentation, fuzzy logic.”

    “Among the characteristics of Postmodernity, we find: hedonist values, respect for differences, psychologism, freedom of expression, the cult of personal liberation, decontraction, humour and sincerity. All that signals a new form of autonomy that leaves far behind the ideal that had been set by the authoritarian democratic age … individualism now becomes narcissistic.”

    “In a Postmodern world, everything is a matter of choice: between products, educational systems, religion or even personal identity. But there are no objective criteria for making the right choice.”

    “Liberty has a significant consequence for man; his orientation has been destroyed. Ethically speaking, options for sexual behaviour have become varied: to the traditional family model is opposed that of partnership according to your sequence of life, the single parent family and the homosexual family. The anonymity of the big cities encouraged the development of these models.”

    “Individualism is the root cause of isolation, the no 1 problem of our epoch.”

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 3, 2003 - 02:31 am
    Just a friendly reminder that in this discussion group, we stay away from bringing up the names of current political figures. There are a number of political forums in Senior Net for just that purpose.

    "The Carthaginian government appealed to Hannibal to come to the help of the city that had so long refused to support him. How shall we imagine the feelings of the half-blind warrior, driven into a corner of Italy by an endless stream of enemies, seeing all his toil and hardships of fifteen years brought to nothing, and all his triumphs summing up to futility and flight?

    "Half of his troops refused to embark with him for Carthage. According to hostile historians he had 20,000 of them killed for disobedience and for fear tht Rome might add them to her legions. Touching his native soil after an absence of thirty-six years, he hastily formed a new army and went out to face Scipio at Zama, fifty miles south of Carthage (202).

    "The two generals met in a courteous interview, found agreement impossible, and joined battle. For the first time in his life Hannibal was defeated. The Carthaginians, mostly mercenaries, gave ground before the Roman infantry and the reckless cavalry of Masinissa, the Numidian king. 20,000 Carthaginians were left dead on the field. Hannibal, now forty-five, fought with the energy of youth, attacked Scipio in personal combat and wounded him -- attacked Masinissa, re-formed his disordered forces again and again, and led them in desperate countercharges.

    "When all hope fled he eluded capture, rode to Carthage, announced that he had lost not only a battle but the war, and advised the Senate to sue for peace. Scipio was generous. He allowed Carthage to retain her African empire but demanded the surrender of all her war vesssels except ten triremes. She was not to make war outside of Africa or within it without Rome's consent. She was to pay Rome 200 talents ($720,000) every year for fifty yers.

    "Hannibal pronounced the terms just and persuaded his government to accept them."

    Hannibal has a courteous meeting with Scipio -- then goes out to the battlefield and wounds him. He loses the battle (war) and Scipio is generous concerning the terms.

    Apparently the citizens of the city of Carthage look upon this as a chess game (with live pieces) because most of the militia are made of men who are fighting for money. All that the city itself loses is a future of debt to Rome.

    Ain't war wonderful?

    Robby

    Bubble
    October 3, 2003 - 02:42 am
    would Governemnts/states consider such terms today? I wish I could talk to a roman farmer to learn of his thoughts and his reactions...

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    October 3, 2003 - 02:44 am
    I follow this discussion regularly and learn more each day. Thank you all for adding to my understanding. I am grateful.

    Daniel, I am pleased that you reposted #637 from Curious Minds. Telepathy I guess. I had printed out this post for my studies on Contemporary Ethics for inspiration.

    Poor judgment often alters the course of our life and we learn from our mistakes, but when it is people in high places who make mistakes in judgment the consequence are much more disastrous.

    Robby, Romanian is a romance language but I can't think of any other besides Italian, French and Spanish. Perhaps in the Balkans.

    Eloïse

    Bubble
    October 3, 2003 - 02:49 am
    Portuguese too, Eloise, and dialects like Catalan, Provencal, Corse, Occitan, Galician, Sarde, Wallon...

    In 1995 450 million people spoke a latine language, that was 20% of those speaking indo-european languages, and 8 % of the humanity. This was the same ratio for the Germanic tongues.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 3, 2003 - 02:51 am
    Just a friendly reminder that in this discussion group, we stay away from bringing up the names of current political figures. There are a number of political forums in Senior Net for just that purpose.

    "The Carthaginian government appealed to Hannibal to come to the help of the city that had so long refused to support him. How shall we imagine the feelings of the half-blind warrior, driven into a corner of Italy by an endless stream of enemies, seeing all his toil and hardships of fifteen years brought to nothing, and all his triumphs summing up to futility and flight?

    "Half of his troops refused to embark with him for Carthage. According to hostile historians he had 20,000 of them killed for disobedience and for fear tht Rome might add them to her legions. Touching his native soil after an absence of thirty-six years, he hastily formed a new army and went out to face Scipio at Zama, fifty miles south of Carthage (202).

    "The two generals met in a courteous interview, found agreement impossible, and joined battle. For the first time in his life Hannibal was defeated. The Carthaginians, mostly mercenaries, gave ground before the Roman infantry and the reckless cavalry of Masinissa, the Numidian king. 20,000 Carthaginians were left dead on the field. Hannibal, now forty-five, fought with the energy of youth, attacked Scipio in personal combat and wounded him -- attacked Masinissa, re-formed his disordered forces again and again, and led them in desperate countercharges.

    "When all hope fled he eluded capture, rode to Carthage, announced that he had lost not only a battle but the war, and advised the Senate to sue for peace. Scipio was generous. He allowed Carthage to retain her African empire but demanded the surrender of all her war vesssels except ten triremes. She was not to make war outside of Africa or within it without Rome's consent. She was to pay Rome 200 talents ($720,000) every year for fifty yers.

    "Hannibal pronounced the terms just and persuaded his government to accept them."

    Hannibal has a courteous meeting with Scipio -- then goes out to the battlefield and wounds him. He loses the battle (war) and Scipio is generous concerning the terms.

    Apparently the citizens of the city of Carthage look upon this as a chess game (with live pieces) because most of the militia are made of men who are fighting for money. All that the city itself loses is a future of debt to Rome.

    Ain't war wonderful?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 3, 2003 - 02:53 am
    This LINK takes us to an article showing how the Punic Wars took Roman soldiers to areas far away in Europe.

    Robby

    Bubble
    October 3, 2003 - 02:55 am
    Robby, is that a hiccup? your posts 638 and 642?

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 3, 2003 - 03:00 am
    This LINK takes us to an article showing how the Punic Wars took Roman soldiers to areas far away in Europe.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 3, 2003 - 03:02 am
    This MAP shows us the location of the city of Tunis (Carthage) on the Mediterranean, its proximity to Sicily, and the location of El Kef which is near the battleground of Zama.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 3, 2003 - 03:19 am
    A PHOTO of a coastal community in Tunis.

    Robby

    tooki
    October 3, 2003 - 07:03 am
    Recklessly paraphrased from the Durants: When Scipios, the first of many Scipios, met Hannibal along the Ticina, Hannibal's Numidian Cavalry put the Romans to flight.

    Now, at Zema, 16 years later, the Carthaginians give ground before the reckless cavalry of Masinissa, the Numidian King.

    In these 16 years the Numidians have gone from being allies of the Carthaginians to being their enemy.

    Not only an international chess game, but the shifting alliances and loyalities are portentously postmodern.

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 3, 2003 - 07:05 am
    BUBBLE, when Robby repeats posts, it always implies to me that he's trying to get us back on the topic at hand, which is posted in green at the top of the page. As soon as I leave this discussion I intend to do more research on Hannibal, Scipio and the Punic Wars than I've already done, but first . . .

    DANIEL, I love categories and the names of them; they amuse me. Post Modernism, for example. How can anything be more modern than what is happening right now, today? It's like the name "Pre-Raphael" for a school of artists that included Dante Gabriel Rossetti. How could anything be "Pre-Raphael" when it came after Raphael's death?

    What you have stated, DANIEL, about Post Modernism is an opinion based on opinions of people who have written lots of material about it. To me this opinion boils down to the fact that some people believe that so-called "secularism" is taking the place of spirituality in this world.

    Scientists today are studying the idea that what created the earth, and subsequently human life, was a collision of comets. The hypothesis that human life came from a "primordial soup" is questioned because there simply was not enough organic matter for this to come about.

    Despite these studies and a degree of proof that the earth and life did come about in this manner (comet collision), some people will be relieved to know that, according to a very recent informal poll, a majority of people believe the earth and human life are the product of a divine hand.

    As for the "me, me, me individualism", a threat to Christianity and lapse of morality you mention, I don't see much difference between when I was much younger 60 years ago and now.

    People in the West are paid more than they were then and have more "disposable income", but what I see is hard-working people going out to earn a living, who go to church or temple or mosque, take care of their families and contribute to charities just as they did then.

    When have religions like Christianity not been threatened?

    There were homosexual relationships 60 years ago, and there were people living together without benefit of a marriage contract. There was the most terrible war I have seen in my lifetime, and the world was just as secular as it is today.

    I see more young people graduating from colleges and universities in my country than ever before, often because of sacrifices their parents have made.

    I see institutions like the University of North Carolina in Chapel Hill and Princeton making it possible for needy people to attend those institutions at no cost at all.

    What I'm saying, I guess, is that I do not share the dire, gloomy view that those who call themselves "Post Modernists" have. In my mind, the diminishing of Romanticism is a good thing; not a bad one.

    The collapse of Western society and thinking will be a long time coming, just as will the collapse of Rome. We've barely begun this study of Caesar and Christ. There's a long way to go.

    Back to Scipio.

    Mal

    tooki
    October 3, 2003 - 07:09 am
    This wonderful painting illustrates how war would be with elephants on your side. This Is Not A Circus

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 3, 2003 - 07:11 am
    The Second Punic War according to Cassius Dio

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 3, 2003 - 07:35 am
    About Masinissa

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 3, 2003 - 07:42 am
    Historic Atlas: Second Punic war

    tooki
    October 3, 2003 - 09:01 am
    Roman Army of the Punic Wars

    Are we still in the era where Roman citizens were required to serve in the army?

    Marcie Schwarz
    October 3, 2003 - 09:27 am
    Regarding repeating posts: If you make a post and press the Back button on your browser to edit the post (instead of clicking the EDIT button) or if you use the Back button for any other reason, and you go back to your original post and then press the POST MY MESSAGE button again, it will result in a duplicate post. (This may or may not account for the recent duplicated post.)

    Shasta Sills
    October 3, 2003 - 02:26 pm
    The Pre-Raphaelites were a group of artists who were opposed to Raphael's innovations, and chose to return to the kind of painting that was practiced prior to Raphael.

    Is English one of the Romance languages? Or is it considered a Germanic language? I read somewhere that 60% of English is based on Latin. Wouldn't that make it a Romance language?

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 3, 2003 - 02:45 pm
    Thank you, Shasta. I know what the Pre-Raphaelites were. If I didn't, I wouldn't have mentioned them.
    I still think it's a silly label (as most labels are), all things considered.

    I read that English is a Romance-influenced Germanic Language, and am very inclined to agree.

    Mal

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 3, 2003 - 04:07 pm
    "The Second Punic War gave Spain and all its wealth to Rome, providing the funds for the Roman conquest of Greece. It reunited Italy under Rome's unquestioned mastery and threw open all routes and markets to Roman ships and goods. It was the most costly of all ancient wars. It ravaged or injured half the farms of Italy, destroyed 400 towns, killed 300,000 men. Southern Italy has never quite recovered from it to this day.

    "It weakened democracy by showing that a popular assembly cannot wisely choose generals or direct a war. It began the transformation of Roman life and morals by hurting agriculture and helping trade -- by taking men from the countryside and teaching them the violence of battle and the promiscuity of the camp -- by bringing the precious metals of Spain to finance new luxuries and imperialistic expansion -- and by enabling Italy to live on the extorted wheat of Spain, Sicily, and Africa.

    "It was a pivotal event for almost every phase of Roman history."

    "A popular Assembly cannot wisely choose generals or direct a war?

    Robby

    3kings
    October 3, 2003 - 04:37 pm
    SHASTA :- So THERE ! (VBG)

    Thanks MARCY I always wondered what caused those repeat posts...

    Thank you DANIEL for your reply to my question. I will study what you say with interest == Trevor

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 3, 2003 - 05:57 pm
    Molte grazie, Trevor.

    Arrivederci.

    Traude S
    October 3, 2003 - 10:11 pm
    May I briefly comment on the language question that was raised here earlier with respect to English.

    English evolved from Old English; Old English is one of the Germanic groups of Indo-European languages - a large, complex superfamily of languages. Without going into technical details, may I offer the links below.

    The fact is that Latin, the Germanic tongues, Old English derived from Germanic, and the Celtic tongues are all derived from a common Indo-European root and are cognates (related).

    http://www.armenianhighland.com/homeland/chronicle120.html

    http://www.utexas.edu/depts/classics/documents/PIE.html

    http://www.zompist.com/euro.htm

    DanielDe
    October 4, 2003 - 01:09 am
    It is true that a label such as “Postmodernism” in idiosyncratic. Anything “modern” normally can only be related to the “present” and thus is constantly moving with time. Therefore, anything “Postmodern” could only become true in the always ever “future” or after the end of “time”!!!!!!! Professor Glenn Martin, a Doctor of History, could not enter the idea that there could be anything “Postmodern”. Well, so much for labels. I guess they are a form of language.

    I suppose MAL that by “Romanticism” you mean Christian Rationalism. Is there anything that comes after its decline, as you see it? Is it a continuing state of "normalcy" as you described it?

    I can agree to your “reduction” of Postmodernism as being "secularism" taking the place of spirituality in this world. But then that would be emphasizing the spiritual dimension of the evolution of society. In this case, there is one fundamental question which needs to be answered. Is a human being spiritual? Does it have a spirit? And if so, where does it come from? Could colliding planets explain the origin of the spiritual realm if it exists?

    Democracy – the Greeks in Antiquity did not really like that form of Government for it meant levelling downwards the system of values. It is like leaving media programming to “what people want”. I had a discussion a few days ago with a professional in communication about a press communiqué. Apparently one of his clients wanted him to report to the press some “good” news. He responded by saying: ”That cannot interest anyone. Rape your secretary and then we have front page material”.

    The Greeks thought that society needed more or better than democracy so that common values could be drawn upwards.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 4, 2003 - 04:12 am
    Any comments regarding Post 658, Hannibal, and the Punic War?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 4, 2003 - 04:59 am
    A link here about SPAIN tells how war with the Romans continued there for two hundred years.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 4, 2003 - 05:11 am
    Here is a fascinating article about the ANCIENT CELTS in Spain.

    Robby

    tooki
    October 4, 2003 - 06:28 am
    The Durants say, "southern Italy has never quite recovered from it to this day." I realize that was written probably around the late 30s as the book was published in 1944, and that another war and almost 50 years have passed since their remark, still, what do you suppose they meant? My guess is that the decimation of the population is still noticable. Has anyone been to southern Italy lately to see if the effects of the Punic Wars are still apparent?

    tooki
    October 4, 2003 - 06:37 am
    Here is a brief and, to me at least, fascinating account of warring in Southern Italy.

    War Consequences

    The famous Numidian Horsement enter the fray about half way through the account.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 4, 2003 - 06:42 am
    Very interesting, Tooki. People who are not of Italian heritage or who have never studied about this part of the world often fail to realize that Sicily, Southern Italy, and Northern Italy are separate cultures.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 4, 2003 - 06:47 am
    Just what is NUMIDIA? This link tells us.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 4, 2003 - 07:45 am
    DANIEL:~

    Though I enjoyed it, I really don't see what all this recent talk we've been doing here has to do with Hannibal and the Punic Wars. I'm sure you have an opinion about Durant's statement that "a popular assembly cannot wisely choose generals or direct a war" and how that affected Ancient Rome. I for one would like to hear it.

    ROBBY:~

    MOXIE and I grew up in cities only a few miles apart in Massachusetts. Amazingly, we never knew each other then. We met in SeniorNet. Moxie is of Sicilian heritage; I am not.

    The Italian population in northern Massachusetts was and is not Italian; it is Sicilian, and has a very different culture, as you say, as well as a different language, as I found out when I took Italian classes in high school.

    I was the only person with non-Sicilian heritage in those high school Italian classes, and at first I was worried about it. To my surprise, I had the least trouble learning the language. The students around me all heard and spoke "Sicilian" at home, and that's what they expected to study in school. As it turned out, knowing Sicilian Italian was not an advantage to these kids. The Italian language we were taught was sometimes as foreign to them as it was to me, who had never heard any Italian spoken before.

    I continued to study Italian when I went to college. My professor was a man who had come from Rome to teach at my college for a few years. His language and accent were Roman, or middle Italian, and much more "pure Italian" than the Italian language of the Sicilian-Americans I knew in high school.

    After I was married when my husband was in graduate school, I met the Northern Italian wife of a graduate student, an American who met and married her in Italy while he was serving in World War II. We lived in the same World War II low rent student housing, that had been barracks for soldiers during the war. This woman spoke an Italian I never had heard. The food she cooked was certainly not the spaghetti and "gravy" (as Sicilian-Americans call red spaghetti sauce) that was cooked in the homes of the students who were in the high school Italian class with me.

    Now I have a Sicilian-American daughter-in-law. I spent Christmas with her, my son and her many relatives a few years ago. The food they brought to the big buffet we had was Sicilian, nothing like what my northern Italian friend cooked but a wonderful treat.

    What is astonishing to me (and I should have realized it) is the fact that Hannibal's conquest of Italy affected Southern Italy in the way it did, then and today.

    Mal

    Traude S
    October 4, 2003 - 07:57 am
    Robby, it was not my intention to disrupt the flow of the discussion with the information on language. The question was raised in the text before I came in. I did so to dispel the notion that English is a Romance language or 'Romance-influenced'. As I meant to show by quoting the links, the issue is considerably more intricate and complex.

    Regarding post # 649 : The term 'Pre-Raphaelite' is not anachronistic but appropriate in view of the fact that Holman Hunt, John Everett Millais and Dante Gabriel Rosetti, who founded the Pre-Raphaelite Brotherhood in 1848, aimed to revive the style and the spirit of the Italian artists BEFORE the time of Raphael.

    With due respect, I think it should be made clear again that there WAS no "Italy" in the Roman times now under discussion, nor during the Middle Ages. For that reason I am troubled by the Durants' constant references to Italy, e.g. in the first sentence in the Header : The disaster shattered ROME's hegemony in southern Italy . rather than saying "..Rome's hegemony in the southern part of the peninsula." Not until the mid 1800s was the country finally united (and not entirely peacefully), largely due to the passionate efforts of Giuseppe Garibaldi.

    Back to the Punic Wars later.

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 4, 2003 - 08:06 am
    TRAUDE:~

    Thank you for telling us about the English language.
    My opinion about "labels" and various "terms" is exactly that -- an opinion --
    nothing more and nothing less.

    Now I'm going to get busy with two magazines
    I have to get on the web and stay out of trouble,
    though I may post a link or two from time to time.

    Mal

    moxiect
    October 4, 2003 - 08:59 am
    I am learning. Thank you Traude, I knew about Garibaldi uniting the mainland but not the year.

    Malyrn, my high school taught what we call the Florentine Dialect Italian which threw a lot of my classmates of Sicilian descent into a tither. In fact, my school taught 2 dialects of French, Canadian and Parisian.

    Back to the Punic Wars, seems to me that even then men wanted more power and were filled with avarice.

    Question: Why does man want to RULE the world population? Seems that throughout history One Man sets out for this.

    tooki
    October 4, 2003 - 10:33 am
    Traude S, Post 671: I think most, if not all, of us are aware there was no "Italy," only a peninsula made up of a number of competitive city states until the 1800's. I, for one, am willing to allow the Durants literary license to call a geographical location by its contemporary name. I think that by so doing understanding is faciliated, rather than constant references to geographical locations. Don't you think the narrative flow would be hindered by the Durants continually saying, "the southern part of the peninsula that wasn't called Italy until it was united in the 1800's?" Surely, isn't a little literary license permissible when discussing the complex Punic Wars? However, I'm curious. How would you solve this problem which will continue to surface as this group progresses?

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    October 4, 2003 - 10:50 am
    Guissepe Garibaldi was born in Nizza, today Nice and it is now in France. Apparently they made quite a name for themselves in America in Real Estate as the Garibaldi Group. They thought that buying it is much less dangerous than fighting for it on the battlefield.

    Moxiect, it is the first time I hear of French Canadian being taught in School, I would be so curious to hear someone not born here speak it. I takes years to acquire the dialect. Funny though that you mention Parisian French as a dialect when it is usually thought of as pure French. When I visit France, Parisian French is primarily spoken in and around Paris, elsewhere they speak their own local dialect.

    Eloïse

    moxiect
    October 4, 2003 - 10:59 am
    Eloise,

    In my hometown my high school taught Canadian French for all courses except the College Course which was taught Parisian French.

    Having taken the College Course I was taught Parisian French, but many of my friends who spoke Canadian French could understand one another only if they (Canadian) spoke the dialect slowly. As the same with my Hispanic friends, yes I also speak a little Spanish but the dialect is different.

    Traude S
    October 4, 2003 - 11:57 am
    TOOKI,

    obviously there is no need for constant repetition of something that is known and clearly understood- historically and in any other regard. I meant neither disrespect nor criticism, which would both be presumptuous.

    However, when it comes to foreign languages (seven) and linguistics, my chosen field, I am known for wanting to "elaborate", "explain" (perhaps ad infinitum ?), most especially when it comes to Italy, which I love and will always cherish, where I studied and where I found refuge in the last convulsive months of WW II. That is what I wanted to explain (there I go again!), even though it is totally immaterial within the concept of this discussion. The subject is the Punic Wars, and I will be back, as promised.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 4, 2003 - 01:27 pm
    OK, then. We will allow Durant "literary license" although we all realize there was no "Italy" during Roman times.

    "To Carthage it was the beginning of the end. With much of its commerce and empire left to it, it might have solved the problems of regeneration. But the oligarchical government was so corrupt that it threw upon the lower classes the burden of raising the annual indemnity for Rome and embezzled part of it to boot.

    "The popular party called upon Hannibal to come out of his retirement and save the nation. In 196 he was elected suffete. He shocked the oligarchs by proposing that the judges of the Court of 104 should be elected for one year and should be ineligible for a second term until after a year's interval.

    "When the Senate rejected the measure he brought it before the Assembly, and carrried it. By this law and this procedure he established at one stroke a degree of democracy equal to Rome's. He punished and checked venality and pursued it to its source. He relieved the citizens of the extra taxes that had been laid upon them, and yet so managed the finances that by 188 Carthage was able to pay off the Roman indemnity in full.

    "To get rid of him the oligarchy secretly sent word to Rome that Hannibal was plotting to renew the war. Scipio used all his influence to protect his rival, but ws overruled. The Senate accommodated the rich Carthaginians by demanding the surrender of Hannibal.

    "The old warrior fled by night, rode 150 miles to Thapsus, and there took ship to Antioch (195). He found Antiochus III hesitating between war and peace with Rome. He advised war and became one of the King's staff. When the Romans defeated Antiochus at Magnesia (189), they made it a condition of peace that Hannibal should be turned over to them.

    "He escaped first to Crete, then to Bithynia. The Romans hunted him out and surrounded his hiding place with soldiers. Hannibal preferred death to capture. He said: 'Let us relieve the Romans from the anxiety they have so long experienced, since they think it tries their patience too much to wait for an old man's death.' He drank the poison that he carried with him and died, aged sixty-seven, in the year 184 B.C.

    "A few months later his conqueror and admirer, Scipio, followed him to peace."

    The war had a cost to it. The rich in Carthage placed the burden upon the lower classes to pay the debt but stole some of the money first. Hannibal established a form of democracy and thereby evened out the burden among the citizens. The rich, in anger, sent a false rumor to Rome regarding Hannibal's plan which ultimately led to his death.

    Do I have that correct?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 4, 2003 - 01:50 pm
    I would like to clarify my approach as Discussion Leader regarding "keeping on topic." I believe there is such a thing as a related topic. If, for example, the Durants are talking about "Italy," then such topics as Romance Languages, geographical areas of Italy, etc. are not that far off topic. It is easy, when doing this, to come back smoothly to the main topic.

    However if I insert a comment about how young people these days are not using language properly, then I would hope someone would help bring me back. The related topics mentioned in the first paragraph relate to what Durant is telling us. Young people of today do not.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 4, 2003 - 04:20 pm
    Stoic Rome

    508-202 B.C.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 4, 2003 - 04:34 pm
    "What kind of human beings were these irresistible Romans?

    "What institutions had formed them to such ruthless strength in character and policy -- what homes and schools, what religion and moral code?

    How did they take from the soil -- and by what economic organization and skill did they mold to their uses, the wealth required to equip their growing cities and those ever new armies that never knew rest?

    What were they like in their streets and shops, their temples and theaters, their science and philosophy, their old age and death?

    Unless we visualize -- scene by scene -- this Rome of the early Republic, we shall never understand that vast evolution of customs, morals, and ideas which produced in one age the stoic Caro -- in a later age the epicurean Nero -- and at last transformed the Roman Empire into the Roman Church.

    We are now about to enter into the life of Rome itself. It is my hope that at this time some lurkers will become participants, even if only an occasional word.

    Robby

    tooki
    October 4, 2003 - 04:38 pm
    Traude, post 677: "I will be back." Best hustle; our leader is moving us on past the Punic Wars. I am looking forward to your contribution.

    Robby, post 678: I echo your summary thoughts.

    About moving smoothly from one related subject to another: In my little house on the Prairie, we call comments, ideas, contributions to conversation, that are off the subject a "non sequitur." They are viewed as intellectural fox paws (Eloise,help!), and are called "N Sesses."

    A non sequitur is a statement that is not connected with that which preceded it.

    Couldn't we just say, "That's an NS," and move on? Now it's time for me to NS into the woodwork for awhile.

    tropicaltramp
    October 4, 2003 - 05:40 pm
    HI from Tucson, nice to review the past posts. Welcome change from needles. Glad to be seeing on a daily basis again. Robby clarify your request for data on Mexico.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 4, 2003 - 06:23 pm
    Here is one definition of the word STOICAL.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 4, 2003 - 09:22 pm
    Ancient Roman clothes

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 4, 2003 - 09:38 pm
    Ancient Roman names

    Picture: Roman couple: Pompeii

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 4, 2003 - 09:44 pm
    Picture: Ancient Roman wedding

    Picture: Ancient Rome: Birthing

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 4, 2003 - 09:48 pm
    Picture: Ancient Roman woman with hairdresser

    Picture: Ancient Romans buying and selling

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 4, 2003 - 09:54 pm
    Picture: Ancient Roman kitchen stove

    Picture: Ancient Roman laundry

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 4, 2003 - 10:05 pm
    Picture: Ancient Roman childhood

    Picture: Ancient Roman woman

    Picture: Ancient Rome slave trading

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 5, 2003 - 04:31 am
    "In Rome if the child was deformed or female, the father was permitted by custom to expose it to death. Otherwise it was welcomed. Although the Romans even of this period practiced some measure of family limitation, they were eager to have sons. Rural life made children assets, public opinion condemned childlessness, and religion promoted fertility by persuading the Roman that if he left no son to tend his grave, his spirit would suffer endless misery.

    "After eight days the child was formally accepted into the family and the clan by a solemn ceremony at the domestic hearth. A clan (gens) was a group of freeborn families tracing themselves to a common andestor, bearing his name, united in a common worship, and bound to mutual aid in peace and war.

    "The male child was designated by an individual first name (praenomen), such as Publius, Marcus, Caius -- by his clan name (nomen), such as Cornelius, Tullius, Julius, -- and by his family name (cognomen), such as Scipio, Cicero, Caesar. Women wer most often designated simply by the clan name -- Cornelia, Tullia, Claudia, Julia.

    "Since in classical days there were only some fifteen first names for males, and these tended to be repeated confusingly in many generations of the same family, they were initially reduced to an initial, and fourth -- or even a fifth -- name was added for distinctiveness. So P. Cornelius Scipio Africanus Major, the conqueror of Hannibal, was differentiated from P. Cornelius Scipio Aemilianus Africanus Minor, the destroyer of Carthage."

    Any thoughts on names of those days? Any similarity to the way names are given these days?

    Robby

    Bubble
    October 5, 2003 - 06:13 am
    Up to my generation, it was the custom in Jewish families to give the first born the name of his/her grandparent on paternal side, the second the name of his/her grandparent on maternal side. This made it somewhat easier to keep trace of the family lineage too, especially when sons learned the trade of their father. On my mother family the name Benoit and Moshe (Moses) succeeded one another almost endlessly. Every single uncle had a son called Benoit like my grand father.
    Bubble

    tooki
    October 5, 2003 - 06:56 am
    Naming in Native American cultures was complex and varied among tribes. Some interesting things: In some tribes the given name was kept secret, and the child was known familiarly by, perhaps, an important event the mother observed when preganant, or something that happened shortly after the child was born. That explains such wonderful names as Sees Self In Water, and Falls In Creek. Apparently names were changed as events warranted and the child matured. Deeds in battle were honored by name changes. Who can forget Chief Sitting Bull and Rain In The Face. Thus, I may be known by participants in this discussion as Tooki-Who-Talks-Too-Much.

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    October 5, 2003 - 07:17 am
    In Quebec also it was a tradition to give the name of parents or grand parents to children. My name the same as my grandmother's and my granddaughter Katia's other name is Eloise. Three of my children have the same name as their uncle and aunt. Daniel's other name is his father's name. Sometimes it gets confusing as we have to specify which one we are talking about. Names coming down through several generations is a common practice even today not only because a certain name is familiar to us, but also to continue the lineage.

    Eloïse

    DanielDe
    October 5, 2003 - 07:26 am
    I may have given the impression of wandering away from the topic. I am sorry about that. I left some things out waiting to see the direction of interest. So let me complete what I said before.

    We are observing the rise and fall of Civilization and it is interesting to refer to Durant’s framework: “Four elements constitute Civilization -- economic provision, political organization, moral traditions, and the pursuit of knowledge and the arts.”

    In my post #637 I commented that Hannibal’s performance as a leader was disappointing since he allowed his army to indulge into the “vices of civilization” in the midst of a war campaign. He knew that enemy was to be feared for he was faced with the delaying tactics of Quintus Fabius Maximus Cunctator. Those tactics favoured the Roman’s victory later on. So we were faced with the decline of the Punic Civilization on the account of faltering moral tradition. Does Durant say anything about Fabius ? That man’s tactics gave its name to Fabian Socialism. It would have been worthy of some mention.

    In my post #662, I raised a question about the spirituality of human beings. It is interesting to compare the attitude of Scipio Africanus Minor in the face of battle. Robby’s post #633, Scipio is described as a very spiritual person, preparing his campaigns in prayer with the Gods. We are not equipped to say whether the company of the god’s played a direct role in winning the battles. But we know that the people admired Scipio’s behaviour because he inspired a conduct which led the people to elevate themselves above their nature. And this could have played a role in uniting the people behind their military leaders. They profoundly believed that human beings were spritual, and somehow, this played into their victory. We see here the role of knowledge and arts.

    This takes me to my last post where I mentioned Democracy not being a favoured form of Government by the Greeks. Durant’s remark about democracy not being efficient in the conduct of war confirmed the Greeks opinion. There is this story about a drawing on a piece of paper. It represents a camel. But the truth about it is that it represents a horse. However, it was drawn by a committee. Good tactics cannot be worked out in a democratic framework.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 5, 2003 - 08:22 am
    Daniel:--Any thoughts regarding the way the Romans gave their names as written in Post 691?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 5, 2003 - 08:52 am
    "The patriarchal family was the most basic and characteristic of Roman institutions. The power of the father was nearly absolute, as if the family had been organized as a unit of an army always at war. He alone of the family had any rights before the law in the early Reputlic. He alone could buy, hold, or sell property, or make contracts. Even his wife's dowry, in this period, belonged to him.

    "If his wife was accused of a crime, she was committed to him for judgment and punishment. He could condemn her to death for infidelity, or for stealing the keys to his wine.

    "Over his children he had the power of life, death, and sale into slavery. All that the son acquired became legally his father's property. Nor could he marry without his father's consent. A married daughter remained under her father's power, unless he allowed her to marry cum manu -- gave her into the hand or power of her husband.

    "Over his slaves he had unlimited authority. These, and his wife and children, were mancipia to him -- literally, 'taken in hand.' No matter what their age or status, they remained in his power until he chose to emancipate them -- to let them 'out of hand.'

    "These rights of the paterfamilias were checked to some degree by custom, public opinion, the clan council, and praetorian law. Otherwise they lasted to his death, and could not be ended by his insanity or even by his own choice.

    "Their effect was to cement the unity of the family as the basis of Roman morals and government and to establish a discipline that hardened the Roman character into stoic strength. They were harsher in the letter than in practice. The most extreme of them were seldom used, the rest seldom abused. They did not bar a deep and natural pietas, or reverential affection, between parents and children.

    "The tomb stelae of Rome are as tender as those of Greece or our own."

    Similarities with our own customs? Differences? Your view of them?

    Robby

    Shasta Sills
    October 5, 2003 - 08:54 am
    Only fifteen first names for males! That's hard to believe. I loved that list of Roman names. It's fun to see how Latin words evolved into English words. I use the word 'spurious' all the time, but I didn't know it originally meant 'of illegitimate birth'!

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 5, 2003 - 09:01 am
    Yes, Shasta, I've also been enjoying the connection between Roman words and ours. When we were visiting Greece, there were some of our words with Greek origins but now Roman words seem closer.

    E (out of), MANO (hand) -- out of the hand of -- emancipate. French word -- MAIN - hand.

    Along with many other people in the medical field, when I write and want to save time, I write "c" with a line over it to present CUM for "with" as in "c anxiety." Or as Durant said -- CUM MANU -- "into the hand." I'm sure this will become a familiar thing to us here as we move along through the Roman civilization.

    Robby

    DanielDe
    October 5, 2003 - 01:33 pm
    The naming customs and the family organization seem to have been the same in many countries. It was the same in ancient Israel as well.

    This reminds me of a discussion I had with a colleague some years ago. She was responsible for managing health prevention projects at Cantonal level. She was a distinguished and cultivated lady. At coffee time, I was relating my impressions after having seen the movie “Braveheart” with and by Mel Gibson. For those who haven’t seen it, it tells the story of William Wallace, a Scottish man that provoked England to fight him out in war at the end of the 13th century. His righteousness, bravery and military prowess won the hearts of the Scottish people and they stood behind him.

    I learnt in that movie that the cruel King of England wanted to eliminate the Scottish, so he restored the “prima nopte”. The custom allowed the local Lord (English of course) the right to take any bride (Scottish of course) in his bed for the nuptial night, by force of arms if necessary.

    I told my colleague that I thought this custom was revolting. Now for my surprise … my feelings did not move her at all. She responded that in those days, times were really hard and that there was no survival outside a family clan. Besides, it was an occasion for the bride to have a chance to sleep in a luxury room, with silk bed sheets, which she might not have had before or will not have afterwards.

    Needless to say, I was flabbergasted to hear that opinion coming from a modern woman, and an upper class one moreover. It brought into sharp focus the mindset in which Europeans live.

    It is from that standpoint that I read Durant’s description of the role and power of the Father figure in those days. We must remember that the judicial system that we know, separate from the governmental system, is a recent characteristic of Modern societies. Without that system in place (separation of powers for checks and balances), governmental and the de facto judicial power that came with it, can only be superimposed on the same structure. The decentralization of judicial power to lower levels of organization is also necessary for otherwise, the central government would be overwhelmed with trivial cases.

    Traude S
    October 5, 2003 - 02:28 pm
    This brings us to the Roman saying " nomen est omen . Was there wisdom in that ? A specific meaning ?

    Is the modern question "what's in a name" ? flippant ?

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 5, 2003 - 02:33 pm
    I never heard that Roman phrase before, Traude. It rhymes in English. Is "omen" a Latin word? What does it mean?

    Robby

    Traude S
    October 5, 2003 - 04:08 pm
    Robby, this is a legitimate Latin saying in Old Europe - where sayings and proverbs abound, and where the user is not instantly dismissed as "elite". (I never could understand that concept, as if knowledge were something to be shunned.)

    All three are Latin words, "est = is", "nomen" = name; "omen"= the portend of good or evil to come. The combination was significant enough for the Romans in naming their offspring and the offspring's future. The paucity of names ?? Well, after all, how many virtues and how many good turns of fate are there to wish for one's sons/daughters ?

    Forgive me, I had no intention to lecture. But let me use use this unexpected opportunity to say that I have often been surprised, even taken aback, when the mention of some such saying produced only blank stares, and a feeling of guilt on my part for having done so. While I still see no reason to apologize, I am careful of what I say -- yet sometimes I lapse into my old conversational customs. Mea maxima culpa.

    Traude S
    October 5, 2003 - 04:29 pm
    Too often we don't realize that certain truisms we utter have a Latin origin. One example : Tempora mutantur et nos mutamur in illis , better known as "times change and we change with them".

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 5, 2003 - 04:43 pm
    Traude:--Your education in languages is greater than many of us here. We are fortunate to have you explaining these words as we continue examining the Roman Empire.

    Any comments here regarding the post about the "power of the father?"

    Robby

    tooki
    October 5, 2003 - 06:56 pm
    The Patrician Order is a discussion of the Roman double standard in rights and behavior. "Male guardians held them in mano."

    Traude S
    October 5, 2003 - 08:12 pm
    "The power of the father" was absolute - over members of the family as well as slaves. Cicero and Seneca, to name just two influential personages, followed the path their respective fathers had designed for them without questioning or rebellion. The system of patriarchal authority was the order of the era and it worked for the Romans, irrespective of what we think of these methods all these centuries later.

    Authority can be, and was, abused-- there are countless examples through the ages and especially within recent memory. Even so, there is something to be said in favor of an articulate, rousing voice to be listened to, someone who sets the tone, gives the marching orders, sets goals and defines limits - within reason and with moderation, unrealizable though this may seem. PLEBS , the common folk, had no chance, nor did they seem to mind as long as they had panem et circenses = bread and the circus festivities in the arenas, where Christians were later fed to the lions.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 5, 2003 - 08:31 pm
    "The status of the woman in Rome must not be judged from her legal disabilities. She was not allowed to appear in court, even as a witness. Widowed, she could not claim any dower right in her husband's estate. He might, if he wished, leave her nothing. At every age of her life she was under the tutelage of a man -- her father, her brother, her husband, her son, or a guardian -- without whose consent she could not marry or dispose of property.

    "On the other hand, she could inherit, though not beyond 100,000 sesterces ($15,000), and she could own without limit. In many instances, as the earlier passed into the later Republic, she became wealthy because her husband put his property in her name to escape bankruptcy obligation, damage suits, inheritance taxes, and other evelasting jeopardies.

    "She played a role in religion as priestess. Nearly every priest had to have a wife and lost his office when she died. Within the home (domus) she was honored mistress, mea domina, madame. She was not, like the Greek wife, confined to a gynacceum, or woman's quarters. She took her meals with her mate, although she sat while he reclined.

    "She did a minimum of servile work, for nearly every citizen had a slave. She might spin, as a sign of gentility, but her chief economic function was to superintend the servants. She made it a point, however, to nurse her children herself. They rewarded her patient motherhood with profound love and respect.

    "Her husband seldom allowed his legal mastery to cloud his devotion."

    Any comments regarding the status of women? Any thoughts related to the GREEN quote which begins "The greater urgency ...?"

    Robby

    Traude S
    October 5, 2003 - 10:01 pm
    The status of women, the role of women then --- what can we possibly say from our point of view and the supposed enlightenment of the 21st century ? How far HAVE women come in lo these many centuries really - in the western world where their progress is more pronounced ? Will the birth of a male child always be greeted with more jubilation than a female's ? Even in the west ?

    When my daughter was three, I took her to Venice to see my old landlady. She and her sister were wonderful and loving, it was a very special, nostalgic "homecoming" for me. One year later we moved to this country where my son was born.

    When he was five, I took him to Europe for an extended visit to various countries, and of course we went to Venice. The landlady and her sister couldn't do enough for us and fussed endlessly over my son, "un maschio" = a male child, they exclaimed over and over, which gave me pause for consideration even then, though we were only on the threshold of women's lib (of which my husband took a dim view). What more can I say ?

    Robby, I am not sure what to make of the sentence beginning with "The greater urgency" and frankly don't understand the intimation.

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    October 6, 2003 - 03:35 am
    "The greater urgency of the male supplies woman with charms more potent than any law."

    Women have always influenced men in power. Lately I saw the movie Napoleon where Josephine begs him not to try to conquer Russia. I gathered that it was historically accurate, had he listened to her, he would not have lost the battle and would have stayed in power much longer.

    There are women who abuse of their power over men. Others will become a partner in their relationships and help him reach his career goals. Others women would rather live alone than be subjected to a man and she will pursue her own career without a mate. Others just live contented in the shadow of their mate while others will rebel and claim 'equality' whatever that is.

    Women don't all have the same feminine qualities and faults. Some will abuse of their charms, some will use it for the good of their marriage or their partnership. I believe that womanhood and motherhood are linked together in the most important element of life, that is in the continuation of mankind and if she messes up that part of her life when she is raising children, she messes up the future. That is why it is her responsibility to choose her mate carefully, but she is the one who molds her young children's character.

    Eloïse

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 6, 2003 - 04:16 am
    Eloise:--You say that the mother "is the one who molds her young children's character."

    Does the father have a place in this?

    Robby

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    October 6, 2003 - 04:36 am
    Only if he takes part in a significant way in the early years before the child is 6. If he leaves all the 'raising' to the woman, she will do it, after the children are over 6 he certainly can be a model for them to look up to and later on, a boy needs a male figure to emulate in order for him to go through the 'rite of passage' into adulthood confident that his maleness is achieved correctly, if the father is one he admires that is. For girls, her father will be that model in choosing a mate. Yet we see children without either female or male models they admired achieve great potentials later in life. But that is the exception.

    Raising a family is not just with words, it is with actions which speak louder than words.

    Today there are too many single parent families and we can see the result in society.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 6, 2003 - 04:55 am
    "The father and the mother, their house and land and property, their children, their married sons, their grandchildren by these sons, their daughters-in-law, their slaves and clients -- all these constituted the Roman familia -- not so much a family as a household, not a kinship group but an assembly of owned persons and things subject to the oldest male ascendant.

    "It was within this miniature society, containing in itself the functions of family, church, school, industry, and government, that the Roman child grew up, in piety and obedience, to form the sturdy citizen of an invicible state."

    I wonder if this resembles in any way the extended family that existed not too many decades ago where there would be two or three generations living in the same household -- often with an auntie or uncle present -- with the father holding the reins much more than now -- and with age receiving more respect than now.

    And was that more advantageous to society than the current nuclear families that are scattered around the continent? Or not? Are the "good old days" merely in our euphoric memories?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 6, 2003 - 05:25 am
    Did you know that October is FAMILY HISTORY MONTH? Check out this link -- which has many many sub-links to tantalize you. But please don't stay away too long! We need your participation here as we examine the Roman family.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 6, 2003 - 05:44 am
    "Nomen est omen." Let's see. There was Marilyn Miller, dancer and actress who died young, and there was Marilyn Monroe. We all know who she was. I don't think I ever heard of a Marilyn Einstein, did I? I wished for years that my father had allowed me to be called Daisy, as my mother wanted me to be. It's a much sunnier name.



    My children's father was the dominant one in our family; his word was law whether he was home or not. My children to this day emulate him.

    I was lesser, the one who washed the floors on her hands and knees, did everyone's laundry, cooked, did all the cleaning, washed all the dishes, made most of the mistakes in my family's eyes, and never was the success or more perfect figure their father was.

    It took years for me to establish a real friendship with my daughter, the type of which I'll probably never have with my sons. My children were taught well by a real patriarch, the obedient son of another patriarch.



    The aunt and uncle who raised and adopted me always had some relative or other living with them. My longtime widowed, paternal grandfather spent summers with us. Grandpa Stubbs planted and cultivated a large vegetable garden, so was outside most of the time. It was a darned good thing he was because he was a mean-spirited, Bible-thumping hypochondriac who had no patience with kids, even his own.

    My aunt's alcoholic sister lived with us during various brief periods when she tried to sober up. That wasn't too pleasant, either, since her "nerves" couldn't stand any noises made by a child.

    There were other relatives who drifted in and out for days or weeks or months. It was always a terrible disruption, and my aunt ( whom I couldn't ever tell whether she was hysterical or histrionic ) let all of us know what a burden these "kin" were on her. . . . which made me wonder why she took all of them in, anyway. My aunt ruled the roost in that household, and it was a relief when I grew up and moved out. So much for "over-extended families".

    I myself took in all three of my grown children, all together or singly, at certain times after my marriage ended -- one for a period of years. I also took in a granddaughter who was in great need of help, so I guess the system continues.

    Were these clusters of disparate people related by blood beneficial for society? Only in the way that a few were kept off the welfare rolls.

    I have maintained for a very long time that the "good old days" are a myth perpetuated by very inaccurate, too rosy memories.

    Mal

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 6, 2003 - 05:46 am
    Here are some startling facts (or maybe you won't be surprised) about the CHANGING AMERICAN FAMILY.

    Robby

    tooki
    October 6, 2003 - 08:50 am
    The list of virtues given at this site sound, somehow, more ennobling in Latin than in English.

    The Roman Virtues

    I would prefer to call these attributes character or personality traits, rather than "virtues." Nonetheless, I support the list as aiding in the development of a strong self. I will henceforth devote my attentions to cultivating them.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 6, 2003 - 09:12 am
    I printed them out, Tooki, but am not sure if it will change my life any more than any other lists I have made.

    Robby

    Shasta Sills
    October 6, 2003 - 09:39 am
    Traude, I was interested in the point you made in Post #703. "The paucity of names? Well, after all, how many virtues and good turns of fate are there to wish for one's sons/daughters?"

    The point is that names originally meant something. Today, we mostly choose names because we like the way they sound, or they remind us of somebody we like. They mean nothing at all. But the American Indians, as Tooki says, still give people names that describe their characteristics. Their names still mean something.

    I loved reading about the "women's liberation movement" of 195 BCE. Hooray for those women!!! Too bad the slaves didn't rebel too.

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 6, 2003 - 09:47 am
    Women in Ancient Rome

    Rome: Social Position and Food

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 6, 2003 - 05:24 pm
    The Religion of Rome

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 6, 2003 - 05:37 pm
    "The Roman family was the center and source of religion, as well as of morals, economy, and state. Every part of its property and every aspect of its existence were bound up in a solemn intimacy with the spiritual world.

    "The child was taught, by the eloquent silence of example, that the undying fire in the hearth was the sign and substance of the goddess Vesta, the sacred flame that symbolized the life and continuity of the family. Therefore this must never be extinguished, but must be tended with 'religious' care, and fed with a portion of each meal.

    "Over the hearth he saw the little icons, crowned with flowers, that represented the gods or spirits of the family -- the Lar that guarded its fields and buildings, its fortune and destiny, and the Penates, or gods of the interior, who protected the accumulations of the family in its storerooms, cupboards, and barns. Hovering invisible but potent over the threshold was the god Janus, two-faced not as deceitful but as watching all entry and exit at every door.

    "The child's father, he learned, was the ward and embodiment of an inner genius, or generative power, which would not die with the body, but must be nourished forever at the paternal grave. His mother was also the carrier of a deity and had likewise to be treated as divine. She had a Juno in her as the spirit of her capacity to bear, as the father enclosed a genius as the spirit of his power to beget. The child too had his genius or Juno, as both his guardian angel and his soul -- a godly kernel in the mortal husk.

    "Everywhere about him, he heard with awe, were the watchful Di Manes, or Kindly Shades, of those male forebears whose grim death masks hung on the household walls, warning him not to stray from the ways of his ancestors, and reminding him that the family was composed not merely of those few individuals that lived in his moment but also of those that had once been, or would someday be, members of it in the flesh, and therefore formed part of it in its spiritual multitude and timeless unity."

    Your thoughts, please?

    Robby

    Bubble
    October 7, 2003 - 12:41 am
    I wonder if the eternal flame of the unknown soldier has its origin there?



    In French, when one wants to tell someone to go, there is an expression:"Prends tes lares et tes penates et pars!" Trans: "Take your Lares and your Penates and go!" It shows it is definitive.



    I have a great Catholic friend who has been living for 10y with her divorced friend and only married him recently, after the death of her father, because her dad would never admit - just like the Pope - that his Catholic daughter could marry a divorced man! Divorce is inadmissible... but "living in sin" was better. Paternal eloquent rule.
    Bubble

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 7, 2003 - 02:35 am
    Religion and death



    Roman gods and mythology



    Roman religion -- many links

    tooki
    October 7, 2003 - 07:00 am
    Bubble - Is "Take your Lares and Penates and go," a curse or a cheerful goodby? Here are a couple of charmers.

    The Pleasant Side of Religion

    They are astonishingly cheerful for Romans, it seems to me. I'm beginning to wonder whether the Romans haven't been given a bum rap as dour, cheerless folk. They are beginning to seem to me to be, aside from their seriousness, nice folk.

    Bubble
    October 7, 2003 - 08:19 am
    Tooki, no, it is not a nice order... it has undertones of "don't ever come back"!

    kezy
    October 7, 2003 - 10:32 am
    'cuse me folks for butting in ... not even sure what type of discussion folder this is.
    Just found tropical tramp's posting.. So glad to see you again, old rascal... that had to be said. I hope you won't forget to drop a line to your ardent fans ? Signed: not-so-stoical kezy
    What do we learn in Austrian schools? "Stoical"... an adjective derived from the ancient Greek school of philosophers named "Stoa" whose best known description would be calmness and thoughtfulness even when facing troublesome situations in life. Looks like this behavior would be advisable for some of us, no ?

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 7, 2003 - 01:54 pm

    Kezy, if you hang around long enough you'll discover that there's not much needling done here in this discussion.



    I've been thinking today about the similarity between the Greek and Roman gods. I read somewhere that the Roman gods were not at first anthropomorphized in the way the Greek gods were. Why should they be? There were reminders all over the house in the form of icons. Maybe that was better than being afraid some great god Zeus in the shape of a man 100 feet tall would jump out of the sky and take you in hand.

    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 7, 2003 - 02:00 pm
    From the link I posted above #724 called "Roman religion with many links", link subheading "Religion in the home":
    "The spirits of the household were the lares and penates. The lares were the spirits of the families ancestors. They were represented by little figurines which would be kept in a special cupboard. Among them the lar familiaris, the family spirit, was the most important.

    "On a everyday bases short prayers and small offerings would be made to the lares. And on the more sacred days of the month - the calends, ides and nones - or on special days like a wedding, birth or birthday, more elaborate rituals were held in their honour.

    "Meanwhile the penates were the spirits of the larder. thanks were given to them for keeping the family fed. They too were represented by little figurines and they too had their own little cupboard they resided in. But they would tend to be taken out and placed on the table during mealtimes.

    "When the family ever moved house, then its lares and penates invariably moved with them."

    tooki
    October 7, 2003 - 03:40 pm
    There must be some basic human urge to mark the momentous days and events in our lives. Don't we all have in our homes our own versions of lares, penates and familiearis? Things our kids made, sea shells and small wonderful stones gathered on family outings, and photographs, millions of photographs. Each kodak moment marking some wonderful event in our lives. This kind of activity - crowding one's environment with meaningful objects - is celebratory. And, somehow connected with Mal's thought, I wonder that this ceremonial gesture should NOT be considered religious per se, only connected in that the impulse is a basic human one. Sorry that's not clearer. I think there is something there.

    tooki
    October 7, 2003 - 03:46 pm
    Imagine the cave men, home after a successful hunt stalking the wooly mastadon. After their first full meal in three weeks, Joe says to Mike, "Say, that wall is pretty bare over there. What say we take a little charcoal and some of this red mud and paint a little picture of that big guy. Boy, he sure was big wasn't he?"

    And that's what the cave pictures are: celebratory, not religious as endless discussion would have it.

    Traude S
    October 7, 2003 - 05:06 pm
    It is amazing to me and immensely gratifying how many submerged memories this discussion has brought to the surface.

    I remember with special fondness and gratitude one of our Latin professors who taught us much more in historical and human terms than we realized at the time and whom some of us came to adore. His name was Meyer, he was short, ordinary looking, bespectacled, but he assumed the stature of a giant in class. We called him "MeyerLEIN", the suffix "lein" ("little") defining the noun as emphatically as the adjective could.

    Under his inspired guidance we patiently (and productively) read the many assignments over the years, dutifully poring over page-long texts in search of the all-defining verb which would be the key, by TACITUS (not ONLY Germania !), HORATIUS, LIVIUS et alii, and the TIROCINIUM POETICUM containing a sampling by Catullus, Tibullus and Propertius, and we did so with gusto because Professor Meyer enlivened his lectures with descriptions of Roman life and habits, also murderous wives, and tales about reclining Roman males feasting in their homes:

    greedily devouring all kinds of exotic deliacies offered non-stop by solicitous slaves, their glasses always filled by said slaves. And here is the image I've never forgotten : When the revelers were satiated, slaves were at the ready with peacock feathers (!!!) ... and then the gorging would continue.

    Traude S
    October 7, 2003 - 05:37 pm
    Another image that captivated us was that of the Vestal Virgins, "recruited" at between 6 and 10 years of age for 30 years of service, at the end of which they could return to society. We wondered how many did that and where they went if they had no families. (We were barely adolescents ourselves, remember, and dependent on family.)

    Clearly the Romans liked festivals and celebrated one about every calendar month for all kinds of occasions. The Vestal Virginis were responsible for the preparation of many of those festivals - including their own, the "VESTALIA", celebrated from July 7-15 - even though their main duty lay in watching the eternal fire, the symbol of the eternity of Rome. To this day Rome is known as La città eterna = the eternal city.

    The Vesta temple is called the most important in the city, built like the oldest domicile of the Romans = a hut, open at the top. The temple suffered multiple damages 6 times through the centuries to a greater or lesser extent, and was rebuilt each time.

    I don't remember discussions about the Roman "house gods", only their names.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 7, 2003 - 07:06 pm
    Welcome to our "family," Kezy!! If you do not have Durant's third volume, "Caesar and Christ," just follow the GREEN quotes in the Heading above which are periodically changed, and they will tell you where we stand in the book. We are looking foward to your comments.

    Regarding those little icons over the Roman hearth and doors, I was thinking of the horseshoes one used to see over the door and the hex symbols on the barns. I was wondering if they had a religious origin and, if so, how far back into antiquity.

    Robby

    Traude S
    October 7, 2003 - 07:23 pm
    Please remember, I don't have the book(s).

    Is there any supplementary passage in the volume currently under discussion that would explain the statement that there was something cold and impersonal in the gods of the state religion ? ? And what was that exactly ?



    Does Durant give any proof or any reason of why the gods were "cold and impersonal"?

    And what exactly does he mean by "state religion" ?

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 7, 2003 - 07:27 pm
    Traude:--Durant has two more pages to go and then your question will be answered.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 7, 2003 - 07:39 pm
    "As the child grew up, Cuba watched over his sleep. Abeona guided his first steps. Fabulina taught him to speak. When he left the home, he found himself again and everywhere in the presence of gods.

    "The earth itself was a deity -- sometimes Tellus, or Terra Mater -- Mother Earth -- sometimes Mars as the very soil he trod, and its divine fertility -- sometimes Bona Dea, the Good Goddess who gave rich wombs to women and fields.

    "On the farm there was a helping god for every task or spot -- Pomona for orchards -- Faunus for cattle -- Pales for pasturage -- Sterculus for manure heaps -- Saturn for sowing -- Ceres for crops -- Fornax for baking corn in the oven -- Vulcan for making the fire.

    "Over the boundaries presided the great god Terminus, imaged and worshiped in the stones or trees that marked the limits of the farm. Other religions may have looked to the sky, and the Roman admitted that there too were gods. But his deepest piety and sincerest propitiations turned to the earth as the source and mother of his life -- the home of his dead and the magic nurse of the sprouting seed.

    "Every December the Lares of the soil were worshiped in the joyful Feast of the Crossroads, or Compitalia. Every January rich gifts sought the favor of Tellus for all planted things. Every May the priests of the Arval (or Plowing) Brotherhood led a chanting procession along the boundaries of adjoining farms, garlanded the stones with flowers, sprinkled them with the blood of sacrifical victims, and prayed to Mars (the earth) to bear generous fruit.

    "So religion sanctified property -- quieted disputes -- ennobled the labor of the fields with poetry and drama -- and strengthened body and soul with faith and hope."

    Comments?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 7, 2003 - 08:12 pm
    For those who want protection from the I.R.S. or protection from bad hair dressers or good luck with bingo, etc. etc. etc. etc., Here are many many EVERYDAY ICONS for those of us who live in an enlightened age.

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 7, 2003 - 08:35 pm
    What a funny rip-off! ( I call it that only because I didn't think of it first. )

    I do protest Our Lady of 12 Step Programs if she releases anyone from "endless 12 step meetings".

    Where's "Powerful Protection from Computer Viruses" like the Qhost-1 Trojan I had in mine last week? That's what we all need,
    Oh great god of Cyberspace and Illegal Operation Messages -- Powerful Protection!

    Tell me something. Did those Romans take responsibility for anything? It seems like they pass the buck for everything
    right over to the lap of the gods.

    Mal

    Bubble
    October 8, 2003 - 02:17 am
    Mal, maybe you should consider writing and inserting a cyber-petition to God at the cyber-WAILING WALL of Jerusalem? I even think it is gratis but could well protect your P.C.!

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 8, 2003 - 03:44 am
    "The Romans did not, like the Greek, think of his gods as having human form. He called them simply numina, or spirits. Sometimes they were abstractions like Health, Youth, Memory, Fortune, Honor, Hope, Fear, Virtue, Chastity, Concord, Victory, or Rome. Some of them, like the Lemures or Ghosts, were spirits of disease, hard to propitiate. Some were spirits of the season, like Mala, the soul of May. Others were water gods like Neptune, or woodland spirits like Silvanus, or the gods that dwelt in trees.

    "Some lived in sacred animals, like the sacrificed horse or bull, or in the sacred geese that a playful piety preserved unharmed on the Capitol. Some were spirits of procreation. Tutumus supervised conception. Lucina protected menstruation and delivery.

    Priapus was a Greek god of fertility soon domiciled in Rome. Maidens and matrons (if we may believe the indignant Saint Augustine) sat on the male member of his statue as a means of ensuring pregnancy. Scandalous figures of him adorned many a garden. Little phallic images of him were worn by simple persons to bring fertility or good luck or to avert the 'evil eye.'

    "Never had a religion so many divinities. Varro reckoned them as 30,000, and Petronius complained that in some towns of Italy there were more gods than men. But deus, to the Roman, meant saint as well as god.

    "Under these basic conceps lurked a polymorphous mass of popular beliefs in animism, fetishism, totemism, magic, miracles, spells, superstitions, and taboos, most of them going back to the prehistoric inhabitants of Italy, and perhaps to Indo-European ancestors in their ancient Asiatic home. Many objects, places, or persons were sacred (sacer) and therefore taboo -- not to be touched or profaned -- e.g. newborn children, menstruating women, condemned criminals.

    "Hundreds of verbal formulas or mechanical contraptions were used to achieve natural ends by supernatural means. Amulets were well-nigh universal. Nearly every child wore a bulla, or golden talisman, suspended from his neck. Small images were hung upon doors or trees to ward off evil spirits. Charms or incantations were used to avert accidents, cure disease, bring rain, destroy a hostile army, wither an enemy's crops or himself.

    "Witches appear in Horace, Virgil, Tibullus, Lucian. They were believed to eat snakes, fly through the air at night, brew poisons from esoteric herbs, kill children, and raise the dead. All but a few skeptics seem to have believed in miracles and portents -- in speaking or sweating statues -- in gods dscending from Olympus to fight for Rome -- in lucky odd and unlucky even days -- and in the presaging of the future by strange events. Livy's history must contain several hundred such portents, reported with philosophic gravity. The elder Pliny's volumes so abound in portents and magic cures that they might well have been called Supernatural History.

    "The most serious business of commerce, government, or war could be deferred or ended by the priestly announcement of an unfavorable omen like abnormal entrails in a sacrificial victim or a roll of thunder in the sky."

    It is so hard to read this without thinking of beliefs that exist nowadays -- and to wonder about that apparent direct line from the ancient Asiatic civilizations and tribes to us in the 21st century. I think of that lucky "odd number" 7-11. Not the store, although that may figure into it too but the call of the dice. I think of sacred cows in present-day India. I think of the phrase "God bless you" after a sneeze and there are those people who absolutely must say that and cannot refrain. I think of "esoteric brews" often sold in the name of "health foods." I think of those people who believe in tarot cards and other behaviors used by "psychics."

    My Italian born grandmother, who was raised Roman Catholic, never attended church yet simultaneously never let the votive candles on her dresser die out. I think of my maternal aunt of Swedish heritage who knew very well that the phrase "knock on wood" was merely a superstition, yet automatically used it every time she uttered a hope.

    Is our oriental heritage alive and well?

    Robby

    Bubble
    October 8, 2003 - 05:15 am
    Medals worn around the neck, statues venered for bringing luck...

    tooki
    October 8, 2003 - 07:22 am
    is Grandmother Spider, sometimes called Spider Woman, a ubiguitous helping spirit of North American Native Americans. Nowadays she is viewed mainly as the personal guiding spirt of beaders and weavers.

    However, earlier she was a "broadly celebrated divinity who always brought great wisdom to the people. She is very close to Grandmother Earth herself and possibly represents an oracle for the Earth - which is to say she is an intermediary for the people. Her mythology is widespread."

    Grandmother Spider and the metaphor of her long thread of spider silk are predominant in the Native American story-telling tradition. I urge you to incorporate her into your homage to your own everyday icons. If, for whatever reason, you are unable to view her as an icon, for Heaven's Sake, don't step on one! Misfortune will befall you.

    Here is an image: Grandmother Spider Lives!

    I'm pretty sure this one is Mayan or from the Gread Serpent Mound in Ohio.

    Shasta Sills
    October 8, 2003 - 09:24 am
    Modern physics describes a web of interacting relationships among all the subatomic particles, each depending on the others for existence. This always reminds me of "Spider Woman", weaving her web of fate that connects all human activity. I think some of the ancient beliefs were based on genuine intuitions, and not just superstitions.

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 8, 2003 - 09:50 am
    I was married to a man who has advanced degrees in inorganic chemistry and physics, and learned long ago to be very careful about what I, who am not a scientist, said about any scientific discipline. Though I was something of the reverse when I was much, much younger, I no longer put stock in magic and metaphysics. In my New Age phase ( which came long before the term was coined or New Age was popular ) I wore amulets and had various icons in my house, garden and car to which I turned. The only thing they changed was my attitude. It didn't take long for me to know that I was the one doing that all by myself, with or without these aids.

    I believe in science, in hypothesis, theory and proof. So did many, many Ancient Greeks. Others of them saw their gods in human form with all the same faults and foibles that they had, unlike these amorphous-spirit people apparently, these early Romans.

    Mal

    Mary W
    October 8, 2003 - 09:55 am
    For the last few weeks I have had serious problems with my vision and have been unable to keep up with the discussion. In attempting to catch up I've become aware that there are no longer posts by Justin. Has something happened to him? He is a delight! Hank Evans

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 8, 2003 - 09:56 am
    Hank, my dear, Justin is away.

    Mal

    tooki
    October 8, 2003 - 01:03 pm
    All American bead stores, both actual and on the web, carry eye beads from all over the world. Eye beads were orginally designed to ward off the evil eye, but in modern bead design have become just another kind of bead to incorporate into jewelry. Most contemporary jewelry makers call them "eye beads" and have no idea of their ancient origin. They come in all sizes and materials. The essential thing they all have is a staring dot, representating an eye. In ancient times this eye bead, worn as an amulet, reflects or boomerings back on the giver of the evil eye. Perhaps in some countries these amulets are still worn as protection. I have been told that donkeys in Mexico wear bright blue, "good luck" beads. It's good luck to deflect the evil eye, as this site will tell you:

    More Foolishness

    I think the chances are good that I have now exhausted my store of folk tales.

    georgehd
    October 8, 2003 - 01:18 pm
    When it comes to icons, there are many "My Lady"s but no "My Lord"s. Why is that??

    Post 748: I never knew that baseballs were hand sewn. And I bet that Durant would have never believed that such a subject could possibly come up in connection with one of his books.

    tooki
    October 8, 2003 - 01:18 pm
    This site shows a quite lovely sterling silver and glass bead "evil eye protection" necklace.

    Bubble
    October 8, 2003 - 01:51 pm
    These eye beads are still sold and worn in Turkey and in Arab countries.



    Last month I received a very similar bracelet as the one Tooki showed here as a present from a Turkish cousin to my daughter. I also have a "Fatmah Hand" with such a blue glass eye embedded in it on my car key ring.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 8, 2003 - 03:26 pm
    "The state called these popular beliefs superstitio. But it sedulously exploited the piety of the people to promote the stablity of society and government. It adapted the rural divinities to urban life, built a national hearth for the goddess Vesta, and appointed a college of Vestal Virgins to serve the city's sacred fire. Out of the gods of the family, the farm, and the village it developed the di indigetes -- or native gods -- of the state, and arranged for these a solemn and picturesque worship in the name of all the citizens.

    "Among these original national gods Jupiter or Jove was the favorite, though not yet, like Zeus, their king. In the early centuries of Rome he was still a half-impersonal force -- the brighter expanse of the sky, the light of the sun and the moon, a bolt of thunder or (as Jupiter Pluvius) a shower of fertilizing rain. Even Virgil and Horace occasionally use 'Jove' as a synonym for rain or sky.

    "In time of drought the richest ladies of Rome walked in barefoot procession up the Capitoline hill to the Temple of Jupiter Tonans -- Jove the Thunderer -- to pray for rain. Probably his name was corruption of Diuspater, or Diespiter, Father of the Sky.

    "Perhaps primitively one with him was Janus, originally Dianus -- first the two-faced spirit of the cottage door, then of the city gate, then of any opening or beginning, as of the day or year. The portals of his temple were open only in time of war, so that he might go forth with Rome's armies to overcome the gods of the foe. As old as Jupiter in the respect of the people was Mars, at first a god of tillage, then of war, then almost a symbol of Rome. Every tribe in Italy named a month after him.

    "Of like hoary antiquity was Saturn, the national god of the new-sown seed (sata). Legend pictured him as a prehistoric king who had brought the tribes under one law, taught them agriculture, and established peace and communism in the Saturnia regna -- the Golden Age of Saturn's reign."

    By Jove, I think I've got it!

    Robby

    Bubble
    October 9, 2003 - 03:20 am
    Ha ha ha, Robby, so that is why it rained in Spain this day?



    I wonder if it originates in this time, the tradition of presenting bread and salt at the gate of the main towns when there is a foreign potentate visiting?

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 9, 2003 - 03:29 am
    Yes, Bubble, but mainly on the plain.

    I'm sure that others here will come up with what are now called "traditions."

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 9, 2003 - 03:47 am
    Durant now gives an answer to Traude's question regarding the GREEN quote which starts "There was something cold . . ."

    "Some of the de novensiles (new divinities) were not conquered but conquering. They seeped into Roman worship through commercial, military, and cultural contacts with Greek civilization -- first in Campania, then in south Italy, then in Sicily, finally in Greece itself. The gods of the state religion could be bribed by offerings or sacrifice, but they could seldom provide comfort or individual inspiration. By contrast the gods of Greece seemed intimately human, full of adventure, humor, and poetry. The Roman populace welcomed them, built temples for them, and willingly learned their ritual.

    "The official priesthood, glad to enlist these new policemen in the service of order and content, adopted the Greek gods into the divine family of Rome, and merged them, when possible, with their nearest analogues in the indigenous deities. As far back as 496 B.C. came Demeter and Dionysus, who were attached to Ceres and Liber (god of the grape). Twelve years later Castor and Pollux were received, to become the protectors of Rome. In 431 a temple was raised to Apollo the Healer in the hope that he might allay a plague. In 294 Aesculapius, the Greek god of medicine, was brought from Epidaurus to Rome in the form of a huge snake and a temple-hospital was built in his honor on an island in the Tiber.

    "Cronus was accepted as substantially one with Saturn. Poseidon was identified with Neptune. Artemis with Diana -- Hephaestus with Vulcan -- Heracles with Hercules -- Hades with Pluto -- Hermes with Mercury. With the help of the poets Jupiter was elevated into another Zeus, a stern witness and guardian of oaths, a bearded judge of morals, a custodian of laws, a god of gods.

    "Slowly the educated Roman was prepared for the monotheistic creeds of Stocism, Judaism, and Christianity."

    Now I begin to see why in my earlier learning days, there were often two names for the same god. Please note also how Durant uses the term "educated" Roman as opposed to the general masses.

    Robby

    Bubble
    October 9, 2003 - 04:37 am
    Mmmmmmmmm...Then itseems that essentially the monotheistic religions all believe in the same God, they just give their own name? Your God is my God, we just put other trimmings around it to suit the local population's taste.



    No disrespect or judgement meant here.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 9, 2003 - 07:33 am
    "In his home the father was priest. Public worship was conducted by several collegia -- associations -- of priests, each filling its own vacancies, but all under the head of a pontifex maximus elected by the centuries.

    "No special training was necessary for membership in these sacred colleges. Any citizen might be enrolled in them or leave them. They formed no separate order or caste and were politically powerless except as tools of the state.

    "They received the income of certain state lands for their support, with slaves to serve them, and grew rich through generations of pious legacies."

    Any comments regarding this apparent connection between the priests and the state?

    Robby

    Shasta Sills
    October 9, 2003 - 08:08 am
    I've always thought it was strange that the Roman empire adopted Christianity. To go from all those household gods, along with the major Greek and Roman gods, and then settle on one god seems like quite a drastic change.

    There was an interesting program on PBS last night about the burning of Rome. They discussed whether Nero did it himself, or whether the Christians had a hand in it. I had never heard that theory before that the Christians might have done it.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 9, 2003 - 08:34 am
    I'm sure that Durant will help us to understand how the transition into Christianity occurred.

    Robby

    tooki
    October 9, 2003 - 10:59 am
    The well known symbol of the AMA dates back to Aesculapius and his staff. He was imported to Rome from Greece, where he was known as Askepios or Asclepius, God of Medicine, in 294. He was slain by Zeus with a thunderbolt for trying to revive a dead man, thus risking making men immortal.

    "The American Medical Association has adopted the Staff of Aesculapius as its symbol. The more commonly seen medical symbol comprised of two snakes intertwined around a winged staff, is known as a caduceus. The wings refer to Mercury, messenger of the gods. The caduceus is the symbol of the US Army Medical Corps."

    Here is a site that presents much more information.

    georgehd
    October 9, 2003 - 02:31 pm
    I was interested in Shasta's post 758 and indeed Durant does cover this topic at the end of the book. I skipped ahead because I too got intrigued by the shift to Christianity. It did take place over time and after Christianity had adopted a number of customs that were pagan in origin (at least that is what I got out of a cursory reading). A lot happens during the years of the formation of the Roman Empire and its demise. The issue of Church versus State will become vitally important.

    Since I have not read Durant's first book, I wondered about the role that religion and various gods played in Oriental civilizations. We know that the belief in one God was accepted by Jews and Muslims in the Middle East. As the Romans conquered more and more territory, they would become exposed to a variety of religious beliefs. Interesting.

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 9, 2003 - 03:55 pm
    "Ancient people were fascinated by herbs and their healing powers and knew much more about them than we do; at least about mixing herbs to release their potency.



    "Ancient wines were always fortified, like the 'strong wine' of the Old Testament, with herbal additives: opium, datura, belladonna, mandrake and henbane. Common incenses, such as myrrh, ambergris and frankincense are psychotropic; the easy availability and long tradition of cannabis use would have seen it included in the mixtures. Modern medicine has looked into using cannabis as a pain reliever and in treating multiple sclerosis. It may well be that ancient people knew, or believed, that cannabis had healing power.

    "Much of their knowledge, passed down through an oral tradition, has been lost and to some extent it is the modern prejudice against drugs that has stopped us looking for it. Revulsion against drugs and the hippie culture even led to the term 'entheogen' being coined to describe a psychotropic substance used in religious rituals.



    "Entheogen comes from the Greek entheos (meaning 'god-inspired within') and the word is now commonly employed in English and European languages to discuss sacramental foods used by shamans (mystic or visionary priests) to achieve spiritual ecstasy.



    "So what of the early Christians? At the time they were evolving, they had to compete with other religions of the Roman empire. The strongest of those was Mithraism, imported from Persia, which exists today as Zoroastrianism.



    "Its sacrament, Haoma, was virtually identical to what we know of soma, in Brahmanism. Worshipped as a god, soma was a strange plant without leaves or roots that needed little light and induced religious ecstasy. It was most likely amanita muscaria: a magic mushroom. In ancient Rome sharing the Haoma cemented the bond of brotherhood of emperors, bureaucrats and soldiers. Pagan Greek celebrations at the sanctuary of Eleusis, meanwhile, included a visionary experience for a crowd of 1,000 people, from drinking a potion made from a fungus that grows on wheat and produces an effect similar to LSD."



    From an article by Professor Carl Ruck
    Boston University

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 9, 2003 - 05:07 pm
    "The main pontifical college kept historical annals, recorded laws, took auspices, offered sacrifices, and purified Rome with quinquennial lustrations. In performing the official ritual the pontiffs were aided by fifteen flamines -- kindlers of the sacrificial flames.

    "Minor pontifical colleges had special functions. The Salii, or Leapers, ushered in each New Year with a ritual dance to Mars -- the fetiales sanctified the ratification of treaties and declarations of war -- the Luperci, or Brotherhood of the Wolf, carried on the strange rites of the Lupercalia.

    "The college of the Vestal Virgins tended the state hearth, and sprinkled it daily with holy water from the fountain of the sacred nymph Egeria. These white-clad, white-veiled nuns were chosen from among girls of six to ten years of age. They took a vow of virginity and service for thirty years. In return they received many public honors and privileges. If any of them was found guilty of sexual relations, she was beaten with rods and buried alive.

    "Roman historians record twelve cases of such punishment. After thirty years they were free to leave and marry, but few took or found the opportunity."

    I hadn't been aware that the concept of "holy water" existed over two millennia ago. And I find it difficult to visualize a six-year old girl taking a vow of virginity.

    Robby

    Bubble
    October 10, 2003 - 12:22 am
    It should be easy at that age surely? Ten years later it would seem a more heavy pledge...

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 10, 2003 - 03:54 am
    "The most influential of the priestly colleges was that of the nine augures who studied the intent or will of the gods, in earlier times by watching the flight of birds, later by examining the entrails of sacrificed animals. Before every important act of policy, government, or war, the 'auspices were taken' by the magistrates and interpreted by the augurs, or by special haruspices -- liver inspectors -- whose art went back through Etruria to Chaldea and beyond.

    "As the priests were occasonally open to financial persuasion, their pronouncements were sometimes adjusted to the needs of the purchaser. For example, inconvenient legislation could be stopped by announcing that the auspices were unfavorable for further business on that day. The Assembly might be induced by 'favorable' auspces to vote for a war. In major crises the government professed to learn the pleasure of Heaven by consulting the Sibylline Books -- the recorded oracles of the Sibyl, or priestess of Apollo, at Cumae.

    "Through such means, and occasional deputations to the oracle at Delphi, the aristocracy could influence the people in any direction to almost any end."

    Any comments regarding the influence of the priests on the affairs of state?

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 10, 2003 - 05:59 am
    THE SALII.

    These were priests of Mars, twelve in number, and always chosen from the patricians. They celebrated the festival of Mars on the 1st of March, and for several successive days.

    THE AUGURES.

    This body varied in number, from three, in early times, to sixteen in the time of Caesar. It was composed of men who were believed to interpret the will of the gods, and to declare whether the omens were favorable or otherwise. No public act of any kind could be performed, no election held, no law passed, no war waged, without first consulting the omens. There was no appeal from the decision of the Augurs, and hence their power was great. They held office for life, and were a close corporation, filling their own vacancies until 103 B. C.

    THE FETIALES.

    This was another body of priests holding office for life, and numbering probably twenty. They were expected, whenever any dispute arose with other nations, to demand satisfaction, to determine whether hostilities should be begun, and to preside at any ratification of peace.

    From A History of Rome by Robert F. Pennell

    tooki
    October 10, 2003 - 06:29 am
    creator of the Sibylline books - "the recorded oracles of the Sybil, or priestess of Apollo, at Cumae." Long a favorite of artists, here are two famous ones:

    By Dosso Dossi, 1490-1542. Italian, Ferrarese School

    Sybyl by Dossi

    Michangelo's Delphic Sibyl on the Sistine Chaple

    tooki
    October 10, 2003 - 06:52 am
    By Domenichino, 1581-1641, Italian, Bolognese School

    Sibyl Again

    Another Michangelo Sibyl. This is the Libyan Sibyl, the one he also made a famous back study drawing of.

    Michangelo's Libyan Sibyl

    Here's the back study.

    Study, Red Chalk Drawing

    Shasta Sills
    October 10, 2003 - 07:40 am
    On the wall of my rheumatologist's office is a picture of a Greek physician treating a patient for arthritis with frankincense and myrrh, according to the inscription at the bottom. It never occurred to me that this treatment would have any effect on arthritis, but I didn't know these were psychotropic drugs. Next time I see my doctor, I'm going to ask him to prescribe some frankincense and myrrh for me, because the Celebrex is sure not doing me any good. Maybe they won't relieve joint pain, but they would at least make the patient happy. Why did the wise men offer frankincense and myrrh to the Christ child? Was that an appropriate gift for a baby?

    tooki
    October 10, 2003 - 09:37 am
    Sometimes called "Magic Mushrooms"

    This is the same E. Curtis who did all the wonderful photographs. While this account was written at the turn of the century, the Peyote Religion is still very active. Some years ago the religion was given special federal dispensation to use the mushrooms because it was a religion.

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 10, 2003 - 03:25 pm
    What about the Sator Square?

    SATOR
    AREPO
    TENET
    OPERA
    ROTAS


    To see the Roman rock where this magic square first was found, click HERE

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 10, 2003 - 10:18 pm

    "But somehow there is nothing so absurd that some philosopher has not said it."

    Cicero

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 11, 2003 - 04:07 am
    "To be effective, said the priests, the ceremony had to be performed with such precision of words and movements as only the clergy could manage. If any mistake was made, the rite had to be repeated, even to thirty times. Religio meant the performance of ritual with religious care.

    "The essence of the ceremony was a sacrifice -- literally making a thing sacer, i.e. belonging to a god. In the home the offering would normally be a bit of cake or wine placed on the hearth,or dropped into the domestic fire. In the village it would be the first fruits of the crops, or a ram, a dog, or a pig. On great occasions, a horse, a hog, a sheep or an ox. On supreme occasions the last three were slaughtered together in the su-ove-taur-ilia. Holy formulas pronounced over the victim turned it into the god who was to receive it. In this sense the god himself was sacrificed. Since only the viscera were burned on the altar, while priests and people ate the rest, the strength and glory of the god (men hoped) passed into the feasting worshipers.

    "Sometimes human beings were offered in sacrifice. It is significant that a law had to be passed as late as 97 B.C. forbidding this.

    "By a variant of these ideas of vicarious atonement a man might offer his life for the state as the Deeii had done, or Marcus Curtis who, to propitiate angry subterranean powers, leaped into a chasm that an earthquake had opened in the Forum -- whereupon, we are told, the chasm closed and all was well."

    As I read this, I think of the word "religious" in our language which is used to mean "great care" and has no relation to beliefs in gods -- as for example, "he performed his chores religiously." Also, I believe there are current religions in which food eaten while holy formulas are being said turns into the Deity himself. And also a belief in the Deity himself being sacrificed.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 11, 2003 - 05:01 am
    "The ceremony of purification might be of crops or flocks, or an army or a city. A procession made the circuit of the objects to be purified, prayer and sacrifice were offered, evil influences were thereby dispelled, and misfortune was turned away.

    "Prayer was still imperfectly evolved from magic incantation. The words for it -- carmen -- meant not only a chant but a charm. Pliny frankly reckoned prayer as a form of magical utterance.

    "If the formula was properly recited, and was addressed to the correct deity according to the indigitamenta, or classified directory of the gods, compiled and kept by the priests, the requst was certain to be granted. If not granted, there must have been an error in the ritual. Akin to magic were also the vota, or vowed offerings, with which the people sought to gain the help of the gods. Sometimes great temples rose in fulfillment of such vows. The multitude of votive offerings found in Roman remains suggests that the religion of the people was warm and tender with piety and gratitude -- a feeling of kinship with the hidden forces in nature, and an anxious desire to be in harmony with them all.

    "By contrast the state religion was uncomfortably formal, a kind of legal and contractual relation between the government and the gods. When new cults flowed in from the conquered East, it was this official worship that declined first, while the picturesque and intimate faith and ritual of the countryside patiently and obstinately survived.

    "Victorious Christianity, half surrendering, wisely took over much of the faith and ritual. Under new forms and phrases, they continue in the Latin world to this day."

    Your thoughts, please?

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 11, 2003 - 08:10 am
    Doesn't this all sound very familiar? I can see a definite progression from religions we read about in Our Oriental Heritage to the Romans to Christianity today. Is there really nothing new under the sun?

    Mal

    tooki
    October 11, 2003 - 09:31 am
    is the name of a famous book by William James, brother to the writer Henry James. (Or maybe it's the other way round.) Anyway, things have become even more complicated since he wrote around the turn of the century. A Yahoo! site, "A Directory of Religons and Spirituality," contains a list, which are links, to 64 religions. Christainity is only one of 64. Christainity has 150 subdivisions. Each of the subdivisions has references to other sites. Should anyone care to be overwhelmed HEREis the site. I especially favored the religion on cyberspace.

    Shasta Sills
    October 11, 2003 - 10:03 am
    I like "Church of the Rain Forest" myself. They're dedicated to preserving the earth. That sounds like a worthy project to me.

    I've always thought "ancestor worship" is the most pointless of all religions. Why should anybody worship their own ancestors? Ancestors are just human beings, like ourselves, no better and no worse. If you're going to worship something, you might as well choose something better than yourself.

    HubertPaul
    October 11, 2003 - 10:32 am
    Shasta, my mom was better :>)

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 11, 2003 - 11:28 am
    Hubert:--We've missed you here. What are some of your reactions to the recent Durant postings?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 11, 2003 - 12:53 pm
    "Did this religion help Roman morals? In some ways it was immoral. Its stress on ritual suggested that the gods rewarded not goodness but gifts and formulas. Its prayers were nearly always for material goods or martial victory.

    "Ceremonies gave drama to the life of man and the soil, but they multiplied as if they, and not the devotion of the part to the whole, were the proper essence of religion. The gods were, with some exceptions, awesome spirits without moral aspect or nobility.

    "Nevertheless, the old religion made for morality, for order and strength in the individual, the family, and the state. Before the child could learn to doubt, faith molded its character into discipline, duty, and decency.

    "Religion gave divine sanctions and support to the family. It instilled in parents and children a mutual respect and piety nevr surpassed. It gave sacramental significance and dignity to birth and death -- encouraged fidelity to the marriage vow -- and promoted fertility by making parentage indispensable to the peace of the dead soul.

    "By ceremonies sedulously performed before each campaign and battle it raised the soldier's morale, and led him to believe that supernatural powers were fighting on his side. It strengthened law by giving it celestial origins and religious form -- by making crime a disturbance of the order and peace of Heaven -- and by placing the authority of Jove behind every oath. It invested every phase of public life with religious solemnity, -- prefaced every act of government with ritual and prayer -- and fused the state into such intimate union with the gods that piety and patriotism became one -- and love of country rose to a passion stronger than in any other society known to history.

    "Religion shared with the family the honor and responsibility of forming that iron character which was the secret of Rome's mastery of the world."

    I remember before leaving for overseas hearing a Chaplain say: "If God be for us, who can be against us?" As I entered an empty house in Germany, I saw on the wall a plaque written in German: "If God be for us, who can be against us?"

    Much to think about and perhaps discuss here.

    "Piety and patriotism became one?"

    Robby

    georgehd
    October 11, 2003 - 01:56 pm
    I feel that Robby's last post is perhaps the most important or perhaps most timely questions that we have had in this discussion. We have entered a period where humans are going to have to deal with two of their cherished beliefs - the church and the state. In many countries of the world church and state are one, causing tremendous conflict for those citizens who do not happen to be of the state religion. Is the US on a Crusade, with all the conflict that that word implies (used by George Bush). Is our war against terrorism in reality a war against Islam? Is Islam at war with the West? I have no answers to these questions, only fears. The participants in this discussion, I suspect, are a liberal group - in a world made up of mostly conservative, indeed reactionary, "believers". My fear is for my grandchildren not myself. The men and women who die fighting for the causes of their elders, are mostly young. This practice does not seem to have changed since Roman times.

    Shasta Sills
    October 11, 2003 - 02:20 pm
    I'm not a religious person, but I do think religion is useful in maintaining order and moral standards within a state. Both religion and the family unit. I think a lot of our problems in the U.S. today are due to the crumbling of traditional religious and family values, without anything constructive to replace them. As the Durants say, the Romans used religion for practical and political purposes.

    Justin
    October 11, 2003 - 02:56 pm
    This conversation is an independent thing. It goes on and on while the participants move in and out. I am away for ten days, I come back and find us once again discussing a Christian prototype in a pagan setting. Here, once again we find priests with exclusive power to enunciate ritual. How like the priest and the Roman Mass is this? May anyone other than a priest say Mass?

    When the Mass was said in Latin, no one knew whether the priest erred in delivery or not. Now that the Mass is said in English, one can detect errors in delivery. Do errors in delivery invalidate a Mass? Suppose a priest says, "Kyrie elaison" once instead of three times. Must the error be corrected by repetition? How much of the Roman practice was adopted by Christianity?

    Durant tells us,the Roman ritual of worship aimed merely to offer the Gods a sacrifice to win their aid. Some times the sacrifice was a human sacrifice. The essence of the Roman ceremony was the sacrifice of a sacred thing... something belonging to a God. Holy words in formula pronounced over the victim turned it into the God who was to receive it and in this sense the God himself is sacrificed.

    Christianity turns the criminal death of it's God Jesus into a human sacrifice with the aim of relieving humanity of its sins.

    Durant leaves the topic with the conclusion that Chirstianity wisely took over much of the faith and ritual, and under new forms and phrases, they continue in the Latin world to this day.

    We are coming closer and closer in this examination of history to the days when Christianity will be formed "whole cloth" from its many earlier paradigms.

    HubertPaul
    October 11, 2003 - 03:02 pm
    "Nevertheless, the old religion made for morality, for order and strength in the individual, the family, and the state. Before the child could learn to doubt, faith molded its character into discipline, duty, and decency.

    What is meant by old religion? Before it got corrupted by superstition?

    There is a very real difference between right faith and superstitious faith.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 11, 2003 - 03:07 pm
    People's interests vary. Some participants become more active if the subject is male domination over the female, some jump in if art is being examined, some become concerned if the topic is the power of the clergy over the state. But, as you say, Justin, the discussion has its own life as it follows Durant's "story" leading us from one culture to another.

    Your questions regarding the possible similarities between the Roman Catholic mass and the rituals of the Ancient Romans are relevant. Perhaps someone here with knowledge of that religion can enlighten us.

    Hubert asks us if we see a difference between a "right" faith and a "superstitious" faith. Any comments?

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 11, 2003 - 03:53 pm
    Welcome back, JUSTIN. I missed you. I believe I said in a less intelligent way in Post #775 what you did.

    GEORGE, I'm scared by what's happening today, too. To me it feels like a terrible regression.

    BERT, I see a perpetuation of superstition in almost all religions. I have thought for some time how much of religion was based on fear. "You'd better behave yourself, or some god or other will grab you by the neck and give you the what for, and you'll end up in Hell."

    I was thinking today about how some of what we call "morals" are generated by fear. There were no birth control pills when I was young. The young women I knew were "moral" about sex more because they were afraid they'd get pregnant than for any other reason. They weren't thinking about themselves as individuals who didn't want obstruct a possible career future ahead of them; they were thinking about the kind of wrath that would come down on them because of a furious father. Part of the reason I did well in school was because if I didn't, I was punished in one way or another by the uncle who raised me. The idea that God would come down on us with all his wrath had become transformed in my mind and the minds of plenty of other people I knew to a very human father figure.

    I was 13 when Pearl Harbor was attacked and a very vulnerable, impressionable age during World War II. There was no question in my mind that God was on the side of the people fighting for my country. It didn't occur to me that the enemy's God, presumably the same one as mine, could possibly be on their side, too. I had a lot to unlearn.

    It grieves me sometimes when I see people my age and younger who are unable to put themselves in anybody else's shoes except their own; who never ask questions about what is right, or in fact whether there is any right at all, or realize that in this world nothing is black and white, and never see the shades of gray we call our world.

    P.S. George says we are a "liberal group". I must come across that way because I've been receiving emails from certain not-quite-anonymous SeniorNet members which urge me to change my heathen ways and "get religion" and some morality before it's too late.

    Mal

    HubertPaul
    October 11, 2003 - 04:04 pm
    Without some organization there may result intellectual anarchy, moral indiscipline, and emotional chaos. Most people need and accept a traditional form, join a group or established church, and some benefit by the help of the group or institution. Therefore we can hardly be against teachers and groups which fulfill or even only sincerely strive to fulfill these legitimate expectations. But neither in the past history nor present experience are absolutely sincere institutions ever found on earth, although they may be found on paper.

    Religion is safer and healthier and make more genuine progress if left free and unorganized. Genuine spirituality is an independent personal thing, a private discovery and not a mass emotion.

    tigerliley
    October 11, 2003 - 04:05 pm
    one might be able to see a similarity between Caiaphas the high priest of the Jewish Temple in Roman Times with the Pope and the his church today.......the Jewish Temple was filled with treasure, gold and silver......the high priest lived in lavish quarters with fine clothing and le-vite servants...... We know Christianity flowed from Jesus but Jesus was a very devout Jew....... what I am trying to say is I can see a resemblance from the Jewish Temple to the Roman Church......

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 11, 2003 - 04:27 pm
    "What kind of morality emerged from this life in the family and among the gods? Roman literature, from Ennius to Juvenal, idealized these earlier generations and mourned the passing of ancient simplicity and virtue.

    "These pages will suggest a contrast between the stoic Rome of Fabius and the epicurean Rome of Nero. But the contrast must not be exaggerated by a biased selection of the evidence. There were epicureans in Fabius' days and stoics in Nero's.

    "From beginning to end of Roman history the sexual morality of the common man remained coarse and free, but not incompatible with a successful family life. In all free classes virginity was demanded of young women. Powerful tales were told to exalt it. The Roman had a strong sense of property and wanted a wife of such steady habits as would reasonably ensure him against leaving his goods to his rival's breed.

    "In Rome, as in Greece, premarital unchastity in men was not censured if it preserved a decent respect for the hypocrisies of mankind. From the elder Cato to Cicero we find express justifications of it.

    "What increases with civilization is not so much immorality of interest as opportunity of expression. In early Rome prostitues were not numerous. They were forbidden to wear the matron's robe that marked the reputable wife, and were confined to the dark corners of Rome and Roman society.

    "There were as yet no educated courtesans like the hetairai of Athens, nor such delicate drabs as posed for Ovid's verse."

    "Premarital unchastity in men preserves a decent respect for the hypocrisies of mankind." Someone please help me to understand that.

    Robby

    Justin
    October 11, 2003 - 06:43 pm
    Bert: you tell us there is a very real diference between superstitious faith and right faith. Faith, I think, means that one accepts a premise without evidence or proof. " Right Faith" is one of those contradictions in language that baffles me. The same is true for "Superstitious Faith". Please explain.

    Justin
    October 11, 2003 - 07:08 pm
    Mal; George may be right. We are certainly not a neo con or a con group. If the only opposing alternative is a "liberal group" then we must fit that class. I don't much care for labels that dump us in a class. Human life is not that neat. I hear people saying today, "they see themselves as socially liberal and economically conservative". So one class is not enough. I favor N classes. That said, I must admit, that our views on issues raised by Durant tend to coincide with the Durants more often than they diverge.

    If you are getting emails that tell you to "get religion before it's too late", the senders are simply confirming the fear factor in religion. Once in a awhile, I receive similar emails. I respond occasionaly, with a question. Why are you afraid? The responses are often stock but once in awhile I get a funny one. "God wants you to like him and if you don't like him he will send you to hell."

    Justin
    October 11, 2003 - 07:20 pm
    Robby: I think Durant in the quote about the male lack of chastity preserving a decent respect for the hypocracies of man, is simply saying things are the same old , same old. The guy is on top and the ladies are on the bottom.

    HubertPaul
    October 11, 2003 - 08:10 pm
    Justin: A pious attitude whose basis is ‘blind’ faith, based on religious outdated dogma(superstition) with no inclination to reasoned enquiry, I consider ‘superstitious faith’

    A faith suited to the requirements of men of intelligence and goodwill, with the realization that knowledge must be acquired to supplement it. It is a faith in the Laws of Nature and our ability to understand more of the still unknown, the Great Mystery, that is what I meant by right faith.

    Without such faith or without some intuitive feeling, how can anyone rise to the true meaning, or at least a better understanding, of life. Of course, there are people who call it all mumbo-jumbo, it’s all chance, the roll of the dice.

    P.S.But then again, if you are in children’s underwear, I mean a salesman,:>) you still need faith in your product and your ability to sell .

    And there, you have salesmen they knock on wood...oh well

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 11, 2003 - 08:53 pm
    Bert, you say, "A faith suited to the requirements of men of intelligence and goodwill, with the realization that knowledge must be acquired to supplement it. It is a faith in the Laws of Nature and our ability to understand more of the still unknown, the Great Mystery . . . ." Are you talking about science here?

    I spent long years of my life trying to figure out the "true meaning of life". Finally, I came to the conclusion that the meaning of life was that I should quit all these useless intellectual meanderings and buckle down and enjoy it while I had it.

    Mal

    Justin
    October 11, 2003 - 10:03 pm
    In children's underwear, Bert? The "faith" you describe, might well be called "confidence". I understand your message.

    HubertPaul
    October 11, 2003 - 11:10 pm
    Justin, the expression: ‘I am in children’s underwear’ goes back a few years. On one of my trips to Europe, During a bus-tour, another tourist introduced himself and then said”: ....... What is your line of work, I am in children’s underwear...” I responded: “that must be really uncomfortable.” Well, he had a sense of humor.

    Mal, I understand your point, at least you tried. We never lose what we have learned, there are stops on the way, though.

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 12, 2003 - 02:03 am
    I am quite ill with a painful infection, so woke up at a very early hour and am now here looking for companionship. Bert, you say we never lose what we learn. That may be true, but through a sometimes painful process, we can step out of a very narrow, restrictive area and expand our minds to include points of view we never thought possible. Reading and discussing Durant's Story of Civilization has been doing this to me for these past almost two years. Anyone who reads these books about history that does not bend his or her mind to different ideas from what he or she had before opening the first page of Volume One is not paying attention, in my opinion. I will never be the same again.

    Now, before I go back to bed I'm going to try and find out what marriage by confarreatio is.

    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 12, 2003 - 02:12 am
    Matrimonium -- Confarreatio, Coemptio, Usus, Sine manu

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 12, 2003 - 02:47 am
    Good morning, Mal. I usually get up between 5 and 5:30 a.m. so here I am. I hope you are feeling a bit better. Just keep thinking of the Virginia Bash coming up.

    Your link on Matrimonium is most enlightening. It's interesting how similar our traditions are to theirs.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 12, 2003 - 03:02 am
    Durant continues:--

    "Men married early -- usually by twenty -- not through romantic love but for the sound purposes of having a helpmate, useful children, and a healthy sexual life. In the words of the Roman wedding ceremony, marriage was liberum quaerendorum causa -- for the sake of getting children. On the farm children, like wives, were economic assets, not biological toys.

    "Marriages were often arranged by the parents and engagements were sometimes made for couples in their infancy. In every case the consent of both fathers was required. Betrothal was formal and constituted a legal bond. The relatives gathered in a feast to witness the contract. A stipula, or straw, was broken between the parties as a sign of their agreement.

    "The stipulations -- especially those concerning the dowry -- were put in writing. The man placed an iron ring upon the fourth finger of the girl's left hand, because it was believed that a nerve ran thence to the heart.

    "The minimum age for legal marriage was twelve for the girl, fourteen for the man. Early Roman law made marrige compulsory. This law must have become a dead letter by 413 B.C. when Camillus as censor imposed a tax on bachelors."

    The more I read and learn, not only from Durant but from other sources as I live, the more I tend to believe that marrying "for love" exists in a very very small segment of the world's population.

    I wonder how many women sporting the third finger of their left hand realize it was once believed that a nerve ran from there to the heart. What if they now chose to wear that engagement ring and wedding ring on the second finger of that hand or the third finger of their right hand, would it make a difference to them or to others?

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 12, 2003 - 03:36 am
    Good morning, Robby. I'm glad to see your post. I have a high tolerance to pain. The times when I really feel it, like the past few days, I want to be babied, I guess. That means not being alone. With the Virginia Bash on my mind, I'm sure my overall mood will improve.

    Yes, that matrimonium site is a good one. I found the marriage called "confarreatio" interesting. It is so called because a kind of flour named "far" was used to make the wedding cake. Farina? I got the "con" as "with" all right, but was trying to make a verb out of "farre". If my head were where it's supposed to be today I'd have seen the flour connection.

    As short a time as fifty-four years ago when I was given an engagement ring, it was thought that a nerve went from the third finger left hand to the heart. I could feel it, for Pete's sake! That finger was always the weakest when I was playing Mozart or Beethoven sonatas on the piano, I don't know why. I made the excuse that it was having had polio, which affected the left side of my body, that caused the weakness. Didn't the Romans think the left was bad or evil? Why am I thinking "a sinistra"?

    That's enough rambling from me, except for one thing. I have begun to think that romantic love is overemphasized in many Western cultures. I think being "in love" is being a little bit crazy.

    Mal

    Bubble
    October 12, 2003 - 06:32 am
    Post #800



    This is exactly in all the details what I see here among my very orthodox (religious) acquaintances. Even to the belief of a link between the ring finger and the heart.
    BTW, anyone can tell me what are the names of the fingers? Thumb and medius are the only ones I remember.



    Apart from Judaism, I am only familiar with the RC religon. I wonder if there is a big difference with the beliefs of most Americans? I thought that all Christians believed basically the same thing.



    Mal, Far is the name of a sweet confection containing prunes in Bretagne - France. Could it have its origin in Roman tradition?

    tooki
    October 12, 2003 - 07:01 am
    This site shows in graph form the different things that folks believe about the meanings of their religions. The range of views is astonishing. Were I to have my wishes, I would be a Druid. Would being a Druid garner me any E-mail? East Germany has the fewest non-believers. Apparently, God-less Communism took.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 12, 2003 - 07:06 am
    Bubble:--The names of the fingers are forefinger, second finger, ring finger, and pinky.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 12, 2003 - 07:10 am
    Tooki:--Your link led to some very interesting material. I printed it out so I could study it.

    Robby

    Bubble
    October 12, 2003 - 07:22 am
    Tooki, a lot to learn in that site. I never realised that RC are really a small minority in USA and as opposed to Europe.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 12, 2003 - 07:22 am
    I am well acquainted with the book, "The Varieties of Religious Experience," by William James and have a copy I can see in a bookcase from where I am sitting. James is considered the founder of "modern psychology."

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 12, 2003 - 07:32 am
    "Marriage sine manu dispensed with religious ceremony and required only the consent of the bride and groom.

    "Marriage cum manu was by usus -- a year's cohabitation, or by coemptio -- purchase, or by confarreatio (literally, eating a cake together), which required religious ceremony and was confined to patricians.

    "Marriage by actual purchase disappeared at an early date, or was reversed. The bride's dowry often in effect bought the man. This dowry was usually at the husband's disposal, but its equivalent had to be returned to the wife in divorce or on the death of the male.

    "Weddings were rich in folk ceremony and song. The two families feasted in the home of the bride. Then they marched in colorful and frolicsome procession to the home of the groom's father, to an accompaniment of flutes, hymeneal chants, and Rabelaisian raillery.

    "At the garlanded door the bridegroom asked the girl, 'Who art thou?' and she answered with a simple forumula of devotion, equality, and unity:--'Where thou art Caius, there am I Caia.' He lifted her over the threshold, presented her with the keys of the house, and put his neck with hers under a yoke to signify their common bond. Hence marriage was called coniugium -- a yoking together.

    "In token of her joining the new family, the bride then took part with the others in worshiping the household gods."

    Any thoughts here as we simultaneously think of the traditions we are accustomed to?

    Robby

    moxiect
    October 12, 2003 - 07:56 am
    Hi Robby!

    Just to let you know I am still around and learning!

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 12, 2003 - 08:26 am
    Tell us what you are learning, Moxi?

    Robby

    Shasta Sills
    October 12, 2003 - 08:29 am
    I never get any e-mails trying to convert me. I think that means I am considered hopeless. I get lots of offers of Viagra though, and other anatomical enhancements.

    Justin, how was the exhibit you went to see?

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 12, 2003 - 10:32 am
    This is a story. It's true.

    I lived in St. Augustine, Florida in a trailer, on a piece of land I also bought, for just about ten years. I had gone there to pull my life together after a very disturbing, turmoiled time. It was peaceful and wonderful for a brief while. Then, one by one all three of my kids came down with all of their problems.

    First came my second son, Chris, just out of college, a late graduate, true, but still very shaky and unsure about his future. Then came my daughter who decided to leave her alcoholic husband. When she came, Chris and she took an apartment and moved out of my house. Then came my elder son, Rob, who had suffered brain damage in a terrible automobile accident. He had no money and nowhere to go, so I took him in -- for five years.

    I couldn't afford to pay a mortgage, pay utility bills, buy food, and support my son and his condition, so I found a job playing the piano at services in a strict, very fundamentalist Southern Baptist church twice a week. There I listened to the preacher attack Blacks, other Protestant religions, Catholics, Jews, and any other religion he could think of, from the pulpit every time he preached. My education was further enhanced because I also taught piano to all the children in the little school the church ran and listened to them talk about their Daddies in the Ku Klux Klan. I made enough money working at that job to buy my son's and my food.

    More and more I became terribly distressed by my son's frequent psychotic episodes, about which I knew nothing. Finally, I became so exhausted and upset that I had to seek help. I called the minister of the church, not knowing where else to turn. He came over to my house with his wife. The preacher gave me no information about places where I could find help for my poor son, but I was so distraught about what to do for him that I more or less fell into BEING SAVED that afternoon. The minister and his wife went home happy, and I was in the same predicament as before -- with one difference:

    No matter how many emails I receive about "getting religion" and changing my heathen ways, I have a ticket to Heaven, folks. That nobody can deny.

    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 12, 2003 - 11:00 am
    TEXT: The Varieties of Religious Experience by William James

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 12, 2003 - 11:07 am
    It's been years since I read that book but in looking at the link, I found the summary of Lecture I of interest after reading about religion among the Romans.

    Robby

    HubertPaul
    October 12, 2003 - 11:07 am
    Again a little of topic:

    tooki, from your link above, I find this part interesting:

    “Naturalistic Evolution.

    The origin of the universe occurred about 14 billion years ago. The earth coalesced about 4.5 billion years ago. Life subsequently began, probably as bacteria, and has been evolving ever since. The process of evolution has been driven by purely natural forces, without input from a God or a Goddess or multiple deities.”

    In some Hindu scriptures, it mentions the Day of Brahm, and the Night of Brahm, with each lasting approx. 4.5 billion years, an ever recurring process.

    Now back to the marriage ceremonies in Rome.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 12, 2003 - 11:32 am
    While we have been discussing the relation between religion and marriage, it is my understanding that marriage does not take place in any church, synagogue, or temple. That this is not necessary as the State makes the contract. Click HERE for information about Marriage and the Law.

    Robby

    BaBi
    October 12, 2003 - 12:01 pm
    ROBBY, I just dropped by to ask if you are acquainted with a book entitled The Decline and Fall of Practically Everybody, by Will Cuppy. It is a tongue in cheek approach to history from Cheops to Miles Standish.

    A brief quote from the chapter on Pericles: "Pericles was the greatest statesman of ancient Greece. He ruled Athens for more than thirty years in it's most glorious period, from 461 B.C. to 429 B.C. Or rather, the people ruled, for Athens was a democracy. At least, that's what Pericles said it was. He only told them what to do."

    Footnote:"Strictly speaking, the Age of Pericles may be said to have ended in 430 B.C., when Pericles was found guilty of embezzling public funds. It was never the same after that."

    <bg>...Babi

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 12, 2003 - 01:13 pm
    Babi:--It is always good to hear from you. And your occasional comment here regarding the Roman Empire is always welcome (hint!)

    I have heard of the Will Cuppy book but have never read it. Perhaps someone else here has.

    Robby

    moxiect
    October 12, 2003 - 02:56 pm
    Robby

    In post #810 you asked what I have been learning! Here goes,

    Man interprets what has gone on before, some of them(man) learn from prior history, others do not. Superstition has been superceded by religion and again man interprets to suit his/her own purposes. Some men acquire the ability of UNDERSTANDING the past, present it in the present and plan for the future.

    Fascinating for me!

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 12, 2003 - 03:16 pm
    WOW, Moxi!! In one small paragraph you answered Voltaire's question.

    Robby

    Justin
    October 12, 2003 - 05:16 pm
    Shasta: The exhibition I attended contained 76 paintings from the Pushkin Museum in Russia. They are largely French works ranging from the Rococo to Post Impressionism. Two wealthy Russian collectors who were active during the Belle Epoque acquired the paintings which were later confiscated by the Soviet State. The works have never been seen in the US before this exhibition.

    The exhibition contained some fine examples of Boucher's art, an interesting painting by Cezanne with early signs of Cubism, two or three works by Picasso in his Harlequin period, a very nice Bastien Le Page with Genre iconography, an early version of Mattise's Bathers, a typical Rousseau, and a fine portrait by Van Gogh. Many works were decidedly deuxième catégorie. I think the Russians were buying willy nilly.

    tooki
    October 12, 2003 - 08:31 pm
    Moxie: The philosopher George Santayana said, "Those who do not learn from history are condemmed to repeat it." One might add, over and over again.

    tooki
    October 12, 2003 - 08:54 pm
    Many wedding traditions go back to Roman times and are designed to provide portection from bad stuff. Queen Victoria set the tradition for while when she married Albert in 1840. Before that color was not important. The veil was also orginally Roman. It was used to hide the bride from ill tempered spirts.

    Here is a site that has more information, if you can stomach the format and the music. Actually, I've apparently done something to be punished because the music from the site is playing as I'm typing this. No doubt the evil Roman spirts are punishing me for taking them too lightly.

    Traude S
    October 12, 2003 - 09:51 pm
    Again I find myself lagging behind but enjoying the stimulating exchanges. It is especially good to see JUSTIN. There are several posters I have not met before, who, I hope, will forgive me for not acknowledging them by name at this time.

    ROBBY, may I say that I have some difficulty following the Durants' path and their personal evaluation and interpretation of the history of civilization.

    But within the period we are now considering, I would have expected (as background) at least SOME mention of the migrations of the Germanic and Eastern tribes of the time, their advance, their collision with the equally advancing, ultimately conquering Romans, the endless, sea-sawing battles, the established dominion of Rome, the construction of the limes = the line of demarcation, the Roman equivalent of the Chinese Wall, the Berlin wall, or some others I could mention.

    Justin
    October 12, 2003 - 10:08 pm
    Tooki: The Chicago opinion research group is generally very reliable. The results of their religious survey explains much about the way old Europeans see Americans. They think we over do the religious theme in politics and in private life. They see us as backward, culturally, and without intellectual sophistication.

    The ORC survey seems to indicate we are more like the Poles and the Irish when it comes to religious opinion. Clearly, we have little in common with the French, the Austrians, and the Germans.

    The evidence of the survey can be explained in part by the American make-up. We are a transplanted people. We are an unhomgenized mixture of the unsophisticated components of every country in the world. We brought our superstitions with us and passed them on to our children. It is no wonder our leaders use a religious dialogue to convince us and the world of their sincerity. Unfortunately, for us the world sees only our hypocracy and hates us for it.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 13, 2003 - 03:48 am
    Traude, you say you "have some difficulty following the Durants' path and their personal evaluation and interpretation of the history of civilization."

    Would you please expand a bit on this difficulty you have with Durant's evaluation and interpretation?

    When we get to the period from 146 B.C. to A.D. 192, Durant will be focusing on what he calls the "Barbarians" in addition to Spain, Gaul, and Britain.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 13, 2003 - 04:45 am
    As this discussion group has moved forward from "Our Oriental Heritage" through "The Life of Greece" to the current "Caesar and Christ," we have watched religions come and go. We have been able to back up and see the forest rather than just individual trees. Participants here may find THIS ARTICLE in this morning's New York Times relevant.

    As we react to it, we will of course follow our usual procedure of showing courtesy and respect and will choose our words carefully.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 13, 2003 - 08:03 am
    Durant continues:--

    "The young women of early Rome were probably not quite so pretty as the later ladies whom the experienced Catullus would credit with laneum latusculum-manusque mollicellas -- 'little sides as smooth as wool, and soft little hands.' Presumably in those rural days toil and care soon overlaid this adolescent loveliness.

    "Feminine features were classically regular, nose small and thin, hair and eyes usually dark. Blondes were at a premium, as were the German dyes that made them. As for the Roman male, he was impressive rather than handsome. A stern education and years of military life, hardened his face, as later indulgence would soften it into flabbiness. Cleopatra must have loved Antony for something else than his wine-puffed cheeks, and Caesar for some other charm than his eagle's head and nose.

    "The Roman nose was like the Roman character -- sharp and devious. Beards and long hair were customary until about 300 B.C., when barbers began to ply their trade in Rome.

    "Dress was essentially like the Greek. Boys, girls, magistrates, and the higher priests wore the toga praetexta, or purple-fringed robe. On attaining his sixteenth birthday the youth changed to the toga virilis -- the white robe of manhood -- as a symbol of his right to vote in the assemblies and his duty to serve in the army. Women wore, indoors, a dress (stola) bound with a girdle under the breats, and reaching to the feet. Outdoors they covered this with a palla, or cloak. Indoors, men wore a simple tunica, or shirt. Outdoors they added a toga, and sometimes a cloak.

    "The toga (tegere, to cover) was a woolen garment in one piece, twice the width and thrice in length the height of the wearer. It was wrapped around the body, and the surplus was thrown back over the left choulder, brought forward under the right arm, and again thrown over the left shoulder. The folds at the breast served as pockets. The right arm remained free."

    OK, you sartorial experts. Any comments?

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 13, 2003 - 08:22 am
    In reference to the article in the New York Times: I see religion in the Western world as being in a period of transition. There has been a trend away from organized, strict, Christian religions in Europe for some time, less in the United States. Many people in the West want their religion to come into the 21st century, it seems to me.

    What does Frank Bruni mean when he says, "The secularization of Europe, according to some political analysts, is one of the forces pushing it apart from the United States, where religion plays a potent role in politics and society, shaping many Americans' views of the world. Americans are widely regarded as more comfortable with notions of good and evil, right and wrong, than Europeans, who often see such views as reckless"?

    Is Bruni saying that we Americans see things as black and white, the good guy and the bad guy, with nothing in between? Is that what the difference is between older, long-established, perhaps more jaded and worldly-wise Europeans who appear to have a much wider world view, and us?

    To me it has appeared that Europe is ahead of the United States in thinking in many different areas. Thoughts about religion are only one.

    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 13, 2003 - 08:45 am
    I've often thought that seven yards of the fabric which constituted a toga, wrapped around you, must have been a terrible nuisance. Clothes reflect a culture and stations or levels within that culture.

    Picture: Roman clothes: Woman, slave girl

    Picture: Roman clothes: Men

    BaBi
    October 13, 2003 - 08:55 am
    Traude, there was a Masterpiece Theatre presentation last night on PBS, the story of Queen Boudica (Boadicea)of the Iceni tribe of Britain, who led a coalition of tribes successfully against the Roman intruders for a number of years. I'm sure you know about her, and I think you would find the film interesting if it is shown in your area.

    I was somewhat startled, in watching the film, to hear one Roman use the term "play ball with us". ROBBY, is this a gaffe on the part of the script writers, or was there some sort of game of ball played by the Romans that I don't know about. I'm not accustomed to hearing boners like that on Masterpiece Theatre.

    MOXI, I especially liked your comment about men of understanding being able to 'plan for the future'. Unfortunately, men who make successful politicians are not generally the stuff of great statesmen, IMO. Those 'planning for the future' too often seem to make major mistakes. ...Babi

    Bubble
    October 13, 2003 - 08:58 am
    5 meters is about what the African women wrap around themselves and is 6 meters is the length of the sari I received from Thailand. Both are worn with a matching bodice.

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 13, 2003 - 09:11 am
    Roman Ball Games

    Roman Ball

    BaBi
    October 13, 2003 - 09:23 am
    MALRYN, thanks for the links on Roman ball playing. I particularly liked the mosaics of the women playing.

    Ball games of one kind or another are always good exercise, and can be simple enough so that I would suppose they might appear among the earlies of games. Still, I find it jarring to hear so modern a phrase as "play ball with us", in the context of working out a treaty, coming from the lips of a Roman of times of Germanicus and Nero. Do you think you can find confirmation of something like that in Roman history? ...Babi

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 13, 2003 - 10:00 am
    BaBi, no, I can't find any confirmation, but I certainly think it could have happened in the time you mention. Perhaps TRAUDE, who is much more of a Latin scholar than I am, can cite a source.

    Mal

    Shasta Sills
    October 13, 2003 - 10:25 am
    Come on, Justin. Don't be so hard on us. The U.S. is a young country compared to Europe. They've got a lot more history behind them than we have. But if we brought superstitions with us, where do you think we got them? When you compare Europeans with Americans, you look at the best in Europe and the worst in the U.S. Is that really a fair assessment?

    i_yona
    October 13, 2003 - 01:08 pm
    I just found Seniornet last night,and don't have the book yet, but am excited about finding a Great Books book club. I've been looking for one for some time.Some comments on your discussion: On ball: I didn't know the Romans played ball, but we know about the Greeks. remember the lovely scene in Homer where women are playing ball? The togas sound HOT. I had no idea they were wool. I can't find my New York Times, but maybe the author is confusing the short and long term. It seems to me, the US is going through a phase where religion is becoming more and more important, but there is no way to know how long this will last. It wouldn't be unuasual if it swung around to its opposite. Do you meet every day?

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 13, 2003 - 02:16 pm
    Welcome, i-yona. The Story of Civiilization discussion has been going on just about two years. We are currently reading and discussing Volume 3, "Caesar and Christ", and intend to read and discuss all of the 11 volumes. This is not a Great Books discussion; it is the long-term discussion of a single work, and we "meet" seven days a week, twenty-four hours a day. The discussion leader, Robert B. Iadeluca, posts quotes from the book, and we follow the section guidelines in green in the heading at the top of this page. We hope you will join us and hope you will check out other book discussions listed on the Books and Literature index page HERE. You'll find the New York Times issue where the article Robby posted is located at this website.

    Mal

    Justin
    October 13, 2003 - 02:26 pm
    Shasta: Robby's NYT article explains much of what I was trying to say in the post you mention. I thought I was comparing a European majority with an American majority. Clearly, we are largely of European origin and our superstitions come from that source but in a contemporary vein, Europe is becoming quite secular and the US is becoming quite religious. That disparity is one of the causes of dissension between Europe and the US. As the article indicates,Europeans tend to see the American President as a religious nut.What troubles me is that they are probably right. Religious nuts are not in the majority in this country but they do vote and they are organized.

    Shasta Sills
    October 13, 2003 - 02:33 pm
    What always surprises me, Justin, is how much attention other countries pay to what is going on in the U.S. And since this is so, they probably realize that a whole lot of Americans agree with your last statement.

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 13, 2003 - 03:12 pm
    I wonder if other countries paid attention to the great behemoth that was Rome the way they do to us? I think I'd pay attention if I thought someone was going to come along and swallow up my identity and my culture in one way or another. Wouldn't you?

    Mal

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 13, 2003 - 05:15 pm
    i yona:--I have just returned home from a long day of work but I see you have already been welcomed. We are pleased to see you here and hope you will become a steady member of our "family." I hope you have clicked onto the "SUBSCRIBE" button so that you won't lose us. Most of us here, certainly myself, do not pretend we are experts in this field. We are simply trying to answer Voltaire's question in the Heading above and are using Durant's books to help guide us. As Mal said, use the GREEN quotes in the Heading to guide you. They are periodically changed. If you have the book, these quotes will tell you in which section of the book we are located. If you do not have the book, these quotes will help you to follow the sub-topics.

    We have only one main rule and that is that we treat each other here with courtesy and respect. We are looking forward to your comments.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 13, 2003 - 05:49 pm
    Durant continues:--

    "Between the First and Second Punic Wars, wealth and luxury made a good beginning. Hannibal gathered a peck of gold rings from the fingers of Romans slain at Cannae, and sumptuary laws repeatedly -- therefore vainly -- forbade ornate jewelry, fancy dress, and costly meals. In the third century B.C. the menu of the average Roman was still simple -- breakfast (ientaculum) of bread with honey or olives or cheese -- luncheon (prandium) and dinner (cena) of grains, vegetables, and fruit. Only the rich ate fish or meat.

    "Wine, usually diluted, graced nearly every table. To drink undiluted wine was considered intemperance. Festivals and banquets were a necessary relaxation in this stoic age. Those who could not unbend to them became too tense, and showed their nervous fatigue in the portrait statues they left to posterity.

    "Hospitality survived as a mutual convenience at a time when inns were poor and far between. The sympathetic Polybius reports that 'in Rome no one ever gives away anything to anyone if he can help it', doubtless an exaggeration. The young were kind to the old, but in general the graces and courtesies of life came to Rome only with the dying Republic.

    "War and conquest molded morals and manners and left men often coarse and usually hard, prepared to kill without compunction and be killed without comlaint. War captives wer sold into slavery by the thousands, unless they were kings or generals. These were usually slaughtered at the victor's triumph or allowed to starve leisurely to death.

    "In the buiness world these qualities took on a fairer aspect. The Romans loved money, but Polybius (about 160 B.C.) describes them as industrious and honorable men. A Greek, said the Greek, could not be prevented from embezzling, no matter how many clerks were set to watch him, while the Romans spent great sums of public money with only rare cases of ascertained dishonesty."

    I find it interesting that there was a correlation between the "dying of the Republic" and the birth of the "graces and courtesies of life." There must be a message here somewhere.

    Robby

    annafair
    October 13, 2003 - 09:57 pm
    So here I am jumping....in the third paragraph Polybius is quoted as saying 'in Rome no one ever gives away anything to anyone if he can help it' and the next statement is "The young were kind to the old, but in general the graces and courtesies of life came to Rome only with the dying Republic." sounds a bit contradictory to me...anna

    Justin
    October 14, 2003 - 12:04 am
    That's life, Annafair. It's contradictory.

    Justin
    October 14, 2003 - 12:17 am
    Mal; I'm not sure how much other countries were able to pay attention to Rome. Remember when the Persian ruler said" Greece? Athens?. Who are they?

    Communication, trade, disinterest of the common man, intelligence of the leader; all these are factors in the awareness formula. Folks in Roman times may not have become aware of the great behemoth until he appeared in the neighboring valley with his legions.

    The question is not a simple one and the answer ,I suspect, is complex. What do you think?

    3kings
    October 14, 2003 - 01:39 am
    This has little to do with SoC, but, as an outsider, I want to say to you good folk here, I know that there is a wealth of goodness in the American people. The Marshal Plan, following the WW2, was undoubtedly one of the finest moments in history.

    A nation that can behave as yours did in those days, has a right to stand tall among the nations.

    It is true,many of us are perplexed by the present dark days, and wonder what has occurred in Washington ( and in London )in the last 3 years, but we believe that America's democratic principles will in time restore your good name, and you will return to such bodies as the United Nations. After all, it was largely the US. that created them.

    Of the current difficulties, we know " In the goodness of time, this too will pass" === Trevor

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 14, 2003 - 02:36 am
    It is so good to see you here, Anna!! We are looking forward to your comments regarding the progress of the great Roman Empire.

    For your information, folks, Anna is a wonderful poet who is the DL for the Poetry discussion group.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 14, 2003 - 03:11 am
    The New York Times continues its series on the "changing church." In this morning's article it talks about CHANGES IN THE DEVELOPING WORLD. We have recently been speaking of the place of religion in the early Roman Civilization. As we read this article and react to it, I ask that you relate it as best you can to what we read about the priests, the festivals, the families, etc. of early Rome.

    Any similarities? Any differences? What are we learning from this -- if anything?

    Robby

    Ginny
    October 14, 2003 - 04:34 am
    Welcome i_yona, to our Books & Literature sections, I wrote you an email but it was returned, must be something wrong with the way it's spelled: could you click on my name and send me your correct mailing address?

    If you are interested in Great Books, you have definitely come to the right place, in addition to Robby's marvelous discussion you see here, we have what must be the longest running (since 1996) and certainly the best Great Books Series on the internet! Come see!

    The group has just finished Dante's Inferno and will begin 100 Years of Solitude on November 15. They vote on the selections they would like to read, come on by here: Great Books Nominating Room and join in freely, while you also enjoy The Story of Civilization, (bet you can't do just one!) haahahaha

    I love your enthusiasm and you'll love ALL of our great discussions!

    Welcome!!

    ginny

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 14, 2003 - 04:42 am
    I've been at services of many different Protestant denominations, usually to sing solos. I've been to Catholic masses. Only once was I at a Jewish service when I was a bridesmaid for my best college friend. Only once have I ever been to a Pentecostal service. I was living in a suburb of Buffalo, New York at the time, and my cleaning woman took me with her because she thought I was a "sinner" because, like my husband and all of our friends, I smoked and drank alcohol. I went because I was curious about a religious service where people spoke in tongues.

    The service was held in an auditorium in a public building in downtown Buffalo. Most of the congregation looked poor, and were predominantly Black.

    It was not the usual kind of service I'd been to. We got there, sat down, and nothing happened until a man stood up and spoke in a tongue that I could not, and presumably no one else could recognize. Others did the same. Rose, the woman I went with, told me later some of the people who spoke had released evil spirits when they did. Others were expressing joy in their belief. How she could tell which was which, I don't know.

    Pentecostals are unitarian, not trinitarian. They believe Jesus is God and not a separate divinity and that the Holy Ghost is also part of God.

    There is baptism to wash away sins. One of the main purposes of the worship of the Pentecosts is to remove "filthiness of the body", or sins. Tobacco is considered sinful, as is alcohol, and so on. When sins are removed, only good and help will come to you, if you are of Pentecostal faith. Most of the people I saw certainly looked as if they could use quite a bit of financial help. I did not see the kind of ecstatic joy that I've witnessed at services of other Protestant denominations (especially Southern Baptists), but apparently to the Pentecosts it is there.

    The quote which follows came from the "Apostles Doctrine", a pamphlet distributed by the United Pentecostal Church.

    According to the United Pentecostal Church: "Speaking in tongues means speaking miraculously in a language unknown to the speaker, as the Spirit gives utterance. Tongues can be classified in two ways, according to function: (1)speaking in other tongues as the initial evidence of the baptism of the Holy Ghost and (2)the gift of tongues as mentioned in I Corinthians.

    "Speaking in other tongues as the Spirit of God gives utterance is the manifestation God has given as the definite, indisputable, supernatural witness or sign of the baptism of the Holy Ghost (Acts 2:4; 10:46; 19:6).

    "It was prophesied by the prophet Isaiah as the rest and the refreshing (Isaiah 28:11-12), foretold by Jesus as a sign that would follow believers of the gospel (Mark 16:17), and experience by Jews and Gentiles alike.

    The gift of 'divers kinds of tongues,' mentioned by Paul in I Corinthians 12:1-12 and concerning which he gave regulations in I Corinthians 14:1-40, is given by both for self-edification (I Corinthians 14:4) and for the edification of the church (I Corinthians 14:27-28). In church meetings the gift of tongues is used to give a public message, and it is to be interpreted. Since this gift can be misused in public, it needs proper regulation (I Corinthians 14:23-28). Not all believers exercise the gift of tongues, which is different in function from tongues given by God as the initial witness of the baptism of the Holy Ghost. Paul said, 'Forbid not to speak with tongues' (I Corinthians 14:39) and "I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all" (I Corinthians 14:18). Who dares to teach or preach to the contrary?"

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 14, 2003 - 05:09 am
    JUSTIN, if you've ever lived in a rural community before the advent of television, you know that somehow word got around. I have a feeling that when the Romans or anyone else swept down on a village, other villages found out about it and paid attention.

    Mal

    annafair
    October 14, 2003 - 11:30 am
    Since I was a product of a Catholic/Protestant union I have been exposed to both churches. In time I have been a member of a Baptist Church ( after being baptized by emersion), A Brethern Church, attended a Unitarian, Presbyterian etc ..at present I am a member of a small Methodist Church with a very diversified congregation. We are a wonderful mix of young, old, black, Oriental,Spanish, and converted Jewish members. It is the most accepting and vital church I have ever attended. We are very non judgemental allowing God to decide instead of our condemning those who feel different.

    Since my father was Catholic and all of my fathers family were devout Catholics I investigated that religeon but found as quoted from the Times "No one recognized me or my suffering, until I got here and learned that I could talk to God myself and didn't need a priest or saints to do that for me."

    Robby since I dont have the book I cant compare what the Times is saying with what Durant had to say about Rome. Was there a great religeous movement then? And I can understand the need of Africans, South Americans to want to truly participate in their religeon...to find they can communicate themselves..any place , any time....that is freedom...anna

    annafair
    October 14, 2003 - 11:33 am
    Encouragement is never out of place. Thank you so much for your assessment of our current events. I appreciate it very much....anna

    HubertPaul
    October 14, 2003 - 11:47 am
    Robby, from the New York Times article:

    ”Most troubling to critics is the enrichment of enterprising preachers, who say their fine cars and expensive suits can convince others of what God's grace can provide.”

    "I have heard God speak," the pastor went on, "and I can tell you, I have heard the sound of abundance."

    Now we know why some of the evangelical pastors in the US syphon off the collections, get rich, live in mansions, drive big cars etc. It is to show us an example what God can do. Oh brother, I never seen it that way.........:>)

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 14, 2003 - 01:30 pm
    Sure, Bert. Say a prayer, and you'll be in Chrétien's shoes!

    Mal

    GingerWright
    October 14, 2003 - 01:32 pm
    Aw yes that is the way I feel also as I to talk to God any time, any place without judgemental people telling do this or do that.

    Shasta Sills
    October 14, 2003 - 02:10 pm
    Isn't it nice that Trevor paid us a compliment? It's so seldom that anybody does. Usually, it's "YANKEE, GO HOME!" But, of course, if Yankee could learn to stay home and mind Yankee's own business, we wouldn't get so much criticism.

    i_yona
    October 14, 2003 - 03:31 pm
    This discussion is very interesting in showing the different places religeon can have in peoples lives in different times and places. In Europe, our admittedly simplistic stereotypes seem to have gone from one extreme to another-- from the bloody religeous wars of some centuries ago to indifference. I can understand why, given their history, they are afraid of political appeals to religeon.Having lived in Israel where religeous extremists on both sides seem to be distroying any hope of peace,I fear this too. On the other hand, the last article seems to show a tremendous need and reaching out in developing countries, and in individual lives in this country. If we believe that human society is progressing, do we believe that we are now ready to do that reaching out without the wars and social intolerance of the past?

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 14, 2003 - 03:53 pm
    Everyone is being both courteous and respectful in their comments about religion but, for those newcomers here, it may be beneficial to repeat the following guidelines which were presented at the start of the discussion.



    "To my knowledge, no civilization of any sort has existed without some sort of ritual which one can call religious. For this reason, it will be impossible to participate in this forum without discussing "religion" from time to time.



    "However, the following guidelines will be enforced by the Discussion Leader to avoid confrontations and digressions about personal religious views.



    "1 - You may make one post describing your own beliefs related to religion (whether you have a religious faith or do not) in order to explain your viewpoint toward the topic at hand. Making additional posts about your religious beliefs or faith is not permitted.


    2 - Do not speak of your religion or absence of religious beliefs as "the truth."


    3 - Do not attempt to change another's conviction about religion.



    "Comments about issues are welcomed. Negative comments about other participants are not permitted.



    "Those participants who do not believe they are being treated fairly in this respect always have the right to contact Marcie, Director of Education. I will follow her guidance."

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 14, 2003 - 03:59 pm
    Anna:--Regarding your question about a "religious movement" in Rome, we have been finding in every civilization we have visited that the clergy played a prominent part in the culture. Undoubtedly we will find this continuing as Durant moves us forward.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 14, 2003 - 04:56 pm
    As Durant ends his section about "Morals," he states the following:--

    "The educated Roman of this age enjoyed discipline, and would have no nonsense about liberty. He obeyed as a training for command. He took it for granted that the government had a right to inquire into his morals as well as his income, and to value him purely according to his services to the state.

    "He distrusted individuality and genius. He had none of the charm, vivacity, and unstable fluency of the Attic Greek. He admired character and will as the Greek admired freedom and intellect. Organization was his forte. He lacked imagination, even to make a mythology of his own.

    "He could with some effort love beauty, but he could seldom create it. He had no use for pure science, and was suspicious of philosophy as a devilism dissolvent of ancient beliefs and ways.

    "He could not, for the life of him, understand Plato, or Archimedes, or Christ. He could only rule the world."

    Imagine yourself, if you will, in this culture. You accept the government inquiring into your morals. Your value is measured only by your service to the state. You are a left-brained person, highly organized, but lacking imagination or the ability to appreciate beauty. The concept of "liberty" is meaningless to you. You are, in effect, a machine without charm -- a robot ready to "rule the world."

    Is a civilization comprised of people like you weak -- ready to go out of existence? Or are you and your compatriots the future of this planet?"

    Robby

    i_yona
    October 14, 2003 - 05:26 pm
    This sounds like a description of an SS oficer under Hitler. Are we to assume that all Romans were like that, or only that those who want to rule the world need to train some people to be like that? Does what you all have read of Roman literature bear out the Durants' statements? I would like to think that such a rigid personality, while it might conquer the world, could not be maintained for the long run.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 14, 2003 - 05:32 pm
    i yona:--Please keep in mind that we are speaking of the earlier "Stoic Rome" -- 508-202 B.C. We have not reached the "Julius Caesar stage."

    Robby

    Justin
    October 14, 2003 - 07:01 pm
    The message of the evangelical movement in Africa, self esteem and empowerment, has been successfully employed in the US by a televangelist- Dr. Shuler- for some years. He had a predecessor, a New York minister- Gardener, I think, at the Marble Church in Manhattan. He called his mesage" the Power of Positive Thinking". The message works. It brings in the tithes in great numbers.

    It's no wonder the women are fascinated by the message. They have nothing but sorrow and subservience in Roman Catholicism and they are taught to like it. That message is incorporated in the ritual in " The Twelve Sorrowful Mysteries of the Virgin". The Church denys women an official role in the hierarchy. The evangelicals allow women to play a significant role in the service and in the hierarchy. More than power in the pews is the ability to speak to God directly. There is no longer a need for intermediaries. No special saint is required to intercede for them.

    The men like it because it encourages an entrepreneurial profit motive. In some churches business is encouraged among the members. Damn good for self esteem.

    Speaking in tongues is unusual because people don't understand the language but it is not different from what they have known when the Mass was exclusively read in Latin.

    The growth seen in Christianity in Nigeria was expressed in the survey data Tooki gave us from the University of Chicago, Opinion Research house.

    This kind of activity is little different from that we experienced in earlier societies. It gives the people something to do in their leisure hours and it serves to create wealth and power for the priests.

    Unfortunately, those who particpate are often the poorest and least educated of a country and the tithing only makes their plight worse. I have no pity for the educated who fall prey to this kind activity.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 14, 2003 - 07:16 pm
    Justin:--Sometimes people have inward emotional hurts which lead them toward a particular belief, education notwithstanding. How does that go about "walking in another person's moccasins?" There is a place for compassion and understanding.

    Robby

    Justin
    October 14, 2003 - 07:19 pm
    Mal; You are probably right.Bad news travels fast in spite of barriers. The drums of Africa send the word. The smoke signals of Native Americans warn of trouble ahead. The hollow log sounds of New Guinea move through the jungle overcoming barriers. Runners carry messages to neighbors and small towns are breeding places for gossipmongers. I understand your message.

    Justin
    October 14, 2003 - 07:22 pm
    Robby: I understand. It is not my wish to do harm, only to shed light. I will try to be more tactful in the future.

    Justin
    October 14, 2003 - 07:27 pm
    Trevor: Your confidence that we will return to a more enlightened foreign policy, is encouraging. The sooner that happens the better.

    Traude S
    October 14, 2003 - 08:35 pm
    ROBBY, I've been scrolling back and forth for 3 hours to get to specific points, questions and reactions; my attempts were not entirely successful because AOL threw me out several times in the process. I won't be able, I realize, to comment on many past challenging and inspiring posts lest I get farther behind in the daily exchanges.

    For the moment just a few comments.

    MAL, indeed, I believe and I said before that there is nothing new under the sun, plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose , the more things change the more they stay the same.

    MAL again, it is laudable and worth knowing that UNC extends help to needy students but I couldn't read the entire link (AOL threw me out just then) and wonder whether it contained further statistical information. No need to answer this -- I'll try the link again.

    It was DANIEL who said, and I paraphrase, that the (future) history of civilization "has not been written" yet, and I agree. But isn't it (sadly) predictable perhaps ?

    I am not sure to what extent we are to discuss religion in the present context, specifically early Christian religion, and how it evolved through the centuries from Roman Catholicism ---> to the Reformation and beyond ---> to the Evangelical movements and ongoing fervent missionary efforts of our own time. After all, we are still involved with the Roman warriors and their (distinctly pagan) deities.



    ROBBY, let me try now to express (belatedly) why I have difficulties sometimes with Durant's text. There is no question as to the importance of the Durants' mammoth, monumental, extraordinary work which made our cultural history accessible to everyone. Will Durant was a born teacher, a philosopher and a brilliant historian. Those eleven volumes are not his only but his primary legacy.



    They represent his profound reflections and research, and also his distillation, his crystallization of events, his frank opinion of people. His narrative is always beautifully phrased, elegant; he freely voices his appreciation or admiration (or the lack thereof) for individual heroes. And he is, it must be admitted, quite expressive in his summary evaluation of the Romans.



    History and (classical as well as modern) languages are my vocation, and at times I simply need to get back to the raw historical facts given in the history books, and to my own interpretation of same. But this, as I have said, is my own personal style, nothing more.

    Recently we talked here about the dominant role of fathers in ancient Rome. But there were also some exceptional mothers in ancient Rome, and one of them was Cornelia, known as the Mother of the Gracchi.

    What a pleasure it is to be here ! Thanks everyone !

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 14, 2003 - 08:53 pm
    TRAUDE, do you have the book, Caesar and Christ? It is helpful to have it for referral. Without it one tends to jump ahead to something Durant writes about later. He writes things in sections, and one of the first of each civilization is Religion. I bought my copy through Amazon at www.amazon.com for less than ten dollars. I see that Robby has changed topic in GREEN in the heading of this page to LETTERS.

    JUSTIN, Norman Vincent Peale is the minister to whom you referred. He allied himself with a psychiatrist, Smiley Blanton, and eventually formed the Institute of Religious Health. Peale's book, The Power of Positive Thinking was a best seller, and his pamphlet called "Guideposts", full of inspirational stories, was very popular. At one time it was almost guaranteed that you'd find a copy of Guidepost in every doctor's and dentist's office.

    Peale has been called everything negative by his detractors, but he did one thing that makes sense to me. He made people feel good about living life on earth, and convinced them that they'd still get there even if they did not spend every moment of their dismal lives working toward going to Heaven. Peale took the astounding stand that God was everywhere, in a Shinto temple, in a synagogue, in a Muslim mosque, in your car, in a field, in the kitchen, everywhere. I can easily see why so many people were attracted to him and what he preached.

    Mal

    i_yona
    October 14, 2003 - 10:14 pm
    Robby and Tooki: I stand corrected: I haven't caught up to the discussion yet. But I still wonder how we should take descriptions of Roman character. I am catching up with past discussions, and note that Tooki predicted the Durants would characterize the Romans as "brutes" compared to the Grreks. I learned this as a child, too. It may be right, but as scholars I feel we should look critically at what evidence they give for what are partially value judgements.

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 14, 2003 - 10:44 pm
    JOAN, since so many of the questions you ask can be answered in its pages, if you can, please try to get the book, Caesar and Christ. I find very little of what Ariel and Will Durant have said in the two previous volumes and in this one to be "value judgments." Those two people were the real scholars. I'm sure we all agree that there is not one person here in this discussion who is a true scholar of ancient history. Traude is a linguist. Justin is an art historian. Robby is a clinical psychologist. I believe Shasta is an artist. Tooki will speak for herself. I'm next to nothing, but I do publish some electronic literary magazines. I have no idea what fields Trevor and Hubert are in.

    Mal

    i_yona
    October 15, 2003 - 12:16 am
    Mal--I'm afraid I expressed myself badly. I have the greatest respect for the Durants and what they did-- certainly much, much more than I have ever done. Moreover, I did not mean value judgements as an insult-- anyone who cares about a subject will and should make value judgements about it. The Durants would be unable to give us the rich picture they have without them. What I meant to say is this: I believe an intelligent reader ALWAYS questions what they read. Reading is a dialogue between the book and the reader.It is in that sense that we, like all readers, are scholars.This is not an insult to the author, it is the heart of the intellectual endeavor. Nor should we wait until we know as much as the Durants. If our questions are foolish, the text will answer them easily. However, you are right: I should hold my questions until the book I ordered has come and I have had time to study it.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 15, 2003 - 04:42 am
    i yona (is that how you want us to address you?):--Don't hold back on your questions. The GREEN quotes above and the remarks by others will indicate to you where we are. Durant continues with the new sub-topic as shown in the Heading.

    "The Roman was formed not only by the family, the religion, and the moral code but, in less degree, by the school, the language, and the literature. Plutarch dates the first Roman school about 250 B.C. but Livy, perhaps romancing, describes Virginia, the desired of the Decemvir, as 'going to a grammar school in the Forum' as early as 450. The demand for written laws, and the publication of the Twelve Tables, suggest that by that date a majority of the citizens could read.

    "The teacher was employed by several families to instruct their childre, or setting up his own private school and taking any pupil that came. He taught reading, writing, grammar, arithmetic, history, and obedience. Moral education was fundamental and unceasing. Disciple and discipline were almost the same word. Memory and character alike were trained by memorizing the Twelve Tables of the law.

    "Heine remarked that 'the Romans would not have had much time left for conquering the world if they had first had to learn Latin.' They too had to conjugate irregular Latin verbs, and soon would be put to Greek. The boy familiarized himself, through poetry and prose, with the exploits of his country and its heroes, and received many a patriotic lesson conveyed through edifying episodes that had never occurred.

    "No attention was given to athletics. The Romans thought it better to train and harden the body by useful work in the field or the camp rather than through contests in the palaestra or gymnasium."

    As I read this, I couldn't help but compare schooling in their period with schooling in ours. The words "obedience," "moral education," and "character" popped out at me as subjects that were taught in class. As for their believing in "hardening the body by work in the field," I couldn't help but think of our current "summer vacations" which came into existence because not too many years ago, children were required at that time to help their parents "in the field."

    Robby

    tooki
    October 15, 2003 - 07:42 am
    The portrait of the Romans sketched by the Durants seems to me unduly harsh. (Not that they were "brutes," as I had predicted). I ended up admiring them, perhaps because, as pictured by the Durants, they possessed so many traits I lack, traits I will not detail!

    Count the years of the Roman Empire's existence: From the Republic established in 508, to 476, when Rome fell to the Galls. Almost 1000 years.

    Are these, then, the same people who gave birth to the rebirth of learning and art, the Renaissance, in the 1400s? Could the genetic pool have changed so much in a mere 1000 years? The Gauls, usually characterized in history books as "rampaginng," were not paragons of sensitivity and learning. Surely, the influx of their genes couldn't have added all that much creativity to the gene pool.

    Thus, I conclude that the Romans had hidden reservoirs of creativity, or that making war and running an empire takes much more creativity than is usually granted.

    On another subject: As Mal indicated, it can be distracting how the Durants introduce a person or subject in passing, then treat the matter in detail later on. It was their way of organizing the material. Apparently, they did not wish to interupt the flow of their quite fabulous narrative to give details at certain points. Ask and someone will find you a link that details things. I hope this helps as our Fearless Leader wants everyone to be happy.

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    October 15, 2003 - 07:58 am
    i_yona, please feel welcomed among us and feel free to 'express' yourself again. Your opinion is valuable. We all have our own particular background that has shaped us and from which we draw our own assessment of what Durant is writing.

    Traude, nice to see you here. I agree that Durant’s writing is brilliant and that alone is enough to influence even the most critical mind. Had he been as brilliant an orator as he was a writer, he could have been a powerful statesman. As for me, as a rule I question opinions and try to glean from them what seems to be the most valuable in my mind, the rest is soon forgotten. As you say ancient beliefs debated in this discussion are different from religions of today, we don’t live in the same era but beliefs of some kind have always been at the center of human activity.

    For some, religion is there for the good of mankind. For others, religion is what makes man evil. I personally believe in the former while mankind can sometimes fall away from some of the basic principles that made some religions so permanent throughout centuries.

    Eloïse

    PS: May I add laughing that that Europeans consider North Americans 'brutes' too, not to mention poor French Canadians when we are compared with the French from France.

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 15, 2003 - 09:01 am
    I have enormous respect for Will and Ariel Durant and what they did. It was a mammoth task, and, in my opinion, it is a job well done. Until someone comes along who disputes what they say with proof that the Durants were wrong, my respect for them will continue.

    I have been in this discussion since it began almost two years ago, and have read two books of this huge work and what has been written and discussed thus far about Book 3, "Caesar and Christ".

    For the first time in this length of time, today I feel as if I'm in the wrong place. I didn't join this discussion to prove Will and Ariel Durant wrong; I came here to learn.

    Mal

    tooki
    October 15, 2003 - 10:47 am
    learned the standard reading, writing, and arithmetic, say the Durants. Here is an opportunity to learn how to do Roman Arithmetic.

    How To Do Roman Arithmetic

    I wonder how the Romans did the necessary mathmatics for building the things they did.

    tooki
    October 15, 2003 - 10:57 am
    The following link is a grand discussion amongst a number of folks like us who have varying opinions. This is about Roman and Arabic numerals in science and engineering. It answered my question, "How did the Romans do mathematics."

    How To Build A Roman Viaduct

    I shall begin immediately!

    i_yona
    October 15, 2003 - 12:03 pm
    Mal and others-- I feel terrible that in my eagerness to jump in to a discussion I was really looking forward to I caused such bad feelings. Mal-- I too want to learn, butI do it best by asking questions. Questioning someone does not mean proving them wrong; often it leads instead to a deeper appreciation of what they are saying. I will remember their decription of the Romans forever now, whereas otherwise, I might have slid right over it. Surely you don't believe that anything I can do can damage the Durants' place as a great book? I am sure that as I read them, I will come to appreciate them more and more. We want the same thing, we just go about it differently,

    I love the discussion of Roman arithmatic. I read that some Greeks were executed for introducing the idea of zero.

    georgehd
    October 15, 2003 - 12:13 pm
    I am a fairly quiet member of this group; that is because I tend not to post unless I have something that is pertinent to the topic being discussed by the Durants. I think of pertinent topics as those directly related to Roman times (in this book) or to current events as they derive from Roman beginings. Sometimes I think we are carried away by a need to add something to the discussion. On the other hand I welcome those posts that contain references to web sites that are related to our discussion as they often open up new dimensions for me. I say this because one member seems upset in the discussion of the Durants and others seem to be taking off on religious topics that while interesting may not be relavent.

    On a totally different topic, but somewhat related to our Roman heritage, I am reading the Gandhi autobiography and am finding that he has wonderful insights that would be even more valuable today if more people read and understood how he came to his understanding of truth. I was going to post some quotes on religion but thought better of it (not really related to our topic).

    I also think we need to remember that we are dealing with the earliest period of Roman history. I will be interesting to see how language, art, science, music, religion, etc play a role in later Roman history - after they have conquered much of the know world. One thousand years of Roman influence is a very long time.

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 15, 2003 - 01:47 pm
    JOAN, you've done nothing as far as I am concerned. There's been a tendency for quite a while (and before you came in), as George said, and I paraphrase, to veer away from the topic at hand, rather than discussing it. I see nothing worthwhile in talking about how the Durants present the material. It's there. Let's talk about it. I suggest that you've barely met me and have no idea how I go about the process of learning something. The Platonic method is fine with me, as are others, like corroborative research I do from time to time.

    Yes, George. We are dealing with the earliest period in Roman history.

    Mal

    JoanK
    October 15, 2003 - 03:36 pm
    Since I mistyped my e-mail address when I registered, and couldn't get the update e-mail instructions to work, I reregistered as JoanK instead of i_yona. Sorry to anyone who tried to e-mail me. Joan

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 15, 2003 - 06:51 pm
    I have had a very very long day. I left home at 7:30 a.m. and just got home shortly after 9 p.m. There have been a number of days like this recently. I have no complaint. This is the career I chose.

    I see that some of the comments became heated which is not too unusual in a topic as profound as the one covered here. Every single participant here is a "thinking" person with opinions or else you would not be here in the first place.

    As for getting off-topic, I would ask that everyone leave up to me, as Discussion Leader, the responsibility for bringing us all back together. That is why I get paid such a high salary. And please, everyone, continue to ask questions. How else can we learn?

    Robby

    Justin
    October 15, 2003 - 06:53 pm
    The Durants treat each society in terms of economics, politics, religion, and learning. It is difficult to imagine a topic that is not relevant to the Civilization discussion. We try to focus on the topic at hand but occasionaly we extend our remarks to current events which tie in with the topic and enlarge our understanding of the topic. I encourage everyone to chip in and not to hesitate because they think a post or two is not relevant. If we drift too far, Robby will bring us back.

    Traude S
    October 15, 2003 - 07:14 pm
    JOAN and fellow participants in this discussion!

    I am only an intermittent guest here. Even so allow me to say that IMHO there is nothing wrong or disrespectful about asking questions, or trying to clarify anwers, always with due respect.

    I am frankly astonished by the suggestion (#878) that (or why) anyone anywhere would possibly want to try to prove the Durants wrong. By the same token I sincerely hope that my candid admission to having difficulties with the quoted text is not taken as "lèse majesté" or disrespect, because none such is intended.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 15, 2003 - 07:25 pm
    Shall we move on?

    "The language, like the people, was practical and economical, martially sharp and brief. Its sentences and clauses marched in disciplined subordination to a determined goal.

    "A thousand similarities allied it, within the Indo-European family, with Sanskrit and Greek and the Celtic tongues of ancient Gaul, Wales, and Ireland. Latin was poorer than Greek in imagery, flexibility, and ready formation of compounds. Lucretius and Cicero complained of its limited vocabulary, its lack of subtle shadings. Nevertheless, it had a sonorous splendor and masculine strength that made it ideal for oratory, and a compactness and logical sentence form that made it an apt vehicle for Roman law.

    "The Latin alphabet came from Euboean Chaleis via Cumae and Etruria. In the oldest Latin inscription known to us, ascribed to the sixth century B.C., all the letters are Greek in form. C was sounded like our K -- J like Y -- V like U or W -- the vowels as in Italian. Caesar's contemporaries knew him as Yooleoos Keyssar, and Cicero was Keekero."

    Any comments here from linguists, of which I am not one?

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 15, 2003 - 08:26 pm
    Yes, let's move on, but first:

    I apologize.

    Last night after midnight I went in the WREX Writers Exchange discussion to find a post from a very dear friend, a woman I've known through WREX for many years, whom I'm very fond of. In it she told us writers that she's to have a kidney removed next month. To say I was shocked is an understatement. To say I feel terrible about this is, too.

    Let me say here that WREX is a small group of perhaps 14 people. In the past ten months a WREX writer had breast cancer and surgery. She is working through her recuperation and rehabilitation well.

    A man in WREX was discovered to have serious leukemia. He is struggling right now and having chemotherapy.

    A woman in WREX had pancreatic cancer and the surgery necessary to help her. She is having chemotherapy and is quite ill from this treatment.

    Another WREX writer is having prostate surgery tomorrow. We'll wait and see the result of that.

    I spent an ill summer with very painful Cellulitis in my weak leg, and after that developed an infection from my brace, which has caused me even more pain; this is minor, but it is part of what has been happening to people I care for and me.

    I didn't sleep much last night because I was so upset, and I had no business posting here or anywhere else today, since I am full to the brim with worry and concern about my friends, whom I care so much about.

    Once again: I apologize. It won't happen again.

    Mal

    tooki
    October 15, 2003 - 09:20 pm
    Does the Latin language, and perhaps other related languages, contain inherent power structures? Eg., is the division between feminine and masculine perceptions reflected in the classiciation of noun and other aspects of grammar?

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 15, 2003 - 09:50 pm

    Allen & Greenough's New Latin Grammar

    Justin
    October 15, 2003 - 11:39 pm
    My memories of Latin are those of endings that seemed to go on forever, strange cases such as "datum", and much struggle with Caesar in Gaul. The love poetry of Ovid always seemed to lie in the future rather than today. Still, there were benefits. English grammar was easier and more understandable. So was Italian grammar. Reading Livy today, it is a pleasure to bounce back and forth in a Loeb edition. If I had it to do over again I think I would, even if I had to put up with the ruler and a chant of "bo, bis, bit,bimus, bitus,bunt. It's nice to know I can always go to Ginny for help.

    Bubble
    October 16, 2003 - 03:26 am
    The "cases", giving different endings to words according to their grammatical position in a sentence, were eight in Indo-European languages, but only six in Latin. These cases still exists in modern languages like Russian (6 cases) and German (4 cases) These make a language complicated to learn but allow more freedom in constructing a sentence since the order of words does not necessarily determine their grammatical function.



    Latin has singular and plural like English but it also has the "dual which indicates a couple of objects or people.



    Yes Latin was a poorer language or maybe imprecise: "summa arbor" could mean "The tallest tree" or "the top of the tree; "conficere pecuniam" could be to amass money as well as to spend money; recingere could mean to girdle back a belt as well as to take off a belt.



    Latin had the advantage that it remained stable for the more than four centuries of its classical period, from Titus Plautus ine the 2nd centure B.C. to the end of the empire but it remained a long time as the language of culture and science, probably until the 16th century



    The latin roots are found in so many languages around the world that I always found they helped me guess the meaning of unknown words in foreign company.
    Bubble

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 16, 2003 - 03:40 am
    We continue with the Storius of Civilizationus.

    "The Romans wrote in ink with a slit metal reed (calamus, stilus), at first upon leaves (folia), whence our words folio and leaf (two pages) -- then upon strips of inner bark (liber) -- often upon white (album) tablets of waxed wood -- later upon leather, linen paper, and parchment.

    "As the written forms of Latin resisted change more than the spoken words, the language of literature diverged more and more from the speech of the people, as in modern America or France. The melodious romance languages -- Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, French, and Romanian -- evolved from the crude popular Latin brought to the provinces, not by poets and grammarians, but by soldiers, merchants, and adventurers.

    "So the words for horse in the Romance languages -- caballo, cavallo, cheval, cal -- were taken from the spoken Latin caballus, not from the written equus. In popular Latin ille (he) was one syllable, like French and Italian il. Final -s and -m were, as in those languages, dropped or not pronounced.

    "The best came from a corruption of the worst -- corruptio pessimi optima."

    Plenty to chew on here. Have fun, folks!!

    Robby

    Bubble
    October 16, 2003 - 04:07 am
    But you do have in English Equerry (I remember Princess Margaret's Equerry Townsend, I think...), equestrian, equitation which are built on equus. I wonder where "horse" came from? lol

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 16, 2003 - 04:40 am
    From Merriam-Webster Dictionary:--Etymology: Middle English hors, from Old English; akin to Old High German hros horse.

    Bubble
    October 16, 2003 - 04:55 am
    Yes... but before? we haven't reached the old German era yet...



    hippo-, a combining form appearing in loanwords from Greek, where it meant “horse” (hippodrome); on this model, used in the formation of compound words (hippology). Also, esp. before a vowel, hipp-. [< Gk: comb. form of h#ppos; c. L equus, OIr ech, OE eoh, Skt a§vas, Lith ašvà]



    I can't find where they explain what OE language is...


    Same source, Robby.

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 16, 2003 - 07:43 am
    My first Latin class was in 1942. That's a long time ago, and I've forgotten most of what I learned, though I remember Latin roots and use them when I'm on foreign language web pages to try and translate what's there and when I read English.

    I understand that the resource most English-speaking scholars and people who are serious about this language is Wheelock's Latin. I never heard of Wheelock's Latin until I was in the All is Vanity discussion on SeniorNet.

    Mrs. Henderson taught me Latin in high school for three years, through Caesar and Cicero. She didn't use a grammar book. Everything we learned about grammar and all vocabulary we learned came out of her head. The kids in grammar school (and that's what we called it, and grammar was drummed into us) who had older brothers and sisters tried to scare people away from taking Latin in high school, so it was with some fear that I opened the door that first morning of my freshman year. One of the first things Mrs. Henderson told us was never to use a "pony".

    Two years of Latin were required for anyone taking the "College" (college preparatory) Course or the "Scientific" Course. I grew up in Massachusetts, as most of you know. Since Boston was even then considered to be the "Athens of the West", our courses were rigorous and strict. I have never heard of another high school which required every student in the school to take Word Usage tests twice a year.

    I learned the pronunciation that Robby mentioned. ae was pronounced eye. Vowels were pronounced AH, AY, EE, OH, OO. J was pronounced like a Y. C was pronounced like a K, therefore the Yooleeoos Kayser Robby mentioned.

    I did a lot of singing, some of it in Latin, of course, and discovered that Church Latin, and what I sang, was not pronounced exactly the same way as what I was learning in school.

    My project today is to read Cattus Petasatus. You don't know that book? It's Cat in the Hat in Latin.

    Mal

    Bubble
    October 16, 2003 - 07:55 am
    That is the same pronunciation I learned... We could talk in latin, Mal? My prof, Mr Heyen, was fluent in latin and when he wanted to scold someone he did it in Latin!



    I don't know what is word usuage, but in England we were tested once a week on "words meanings" from a list of 500 difficult words, and this in the big hall in front of the whole school. and we had every week a test on spelling too. Of course much is forgotten today. What a difference with the way language is taught today.

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 16, 2003 - 08:05 am
    BUBBLE, a Word Usage test contained multiple choice questions like this. Which is right?

    It is I.
    It is me.

    It is us.
    It is we.

    Lunch tasted good to both he and she.
    Lunch tasted good to both him and her.

    The tree had lost all of it's leaves.
    The tree had lost all of its leaves.

    There were more difficult questions. I remember having an argument with my home-room teacher who gave us the test about whether a verb should be singular or plural. He insisted that I was wrong when I said singular. When the corrected test came back, it showed I was right. I did not say "I told you so."

    We had to learn ten or more words a day in English classes. We had spelling tests all the time, too.

    Mal

    Bubble
    October 16, 2003 - 08:13 am
    Grammar tests! I just loved them, they are like word games to me. I could never understand the confusion with the apostrophy.

    georgehd
    October 16, 2003 - 09:53 am
    Lunch tasted good to them. So there.

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 16, 2003 - 10:27 am
    That was funny, George, and I needed that laugh!

    Mal

    HubertPaul
    October 16, 2003 - 11:47 am
    Mal, my first Latin class was in 1935, the only thing I remember:

    inter ossa virginum est laetitia juvenum. (ossa could be wrong, well, it was a long time ago)

    georgehd
    October 16, 2003 - 12:10 pm
    I remember "Forty ducks fell flat in the gutter". I kid you not. I remember reading a Latin sentence that sounded like that in English. I have no idea of what it refered to or what it meant. Perhaps one of you Latin scholars can decifer that for me.

    Bubble
    October 16, 2003 - 01:17 pm
    The center's Web site provides maps and images, updates to the "Barrington Atlas of the Greek and Roman World," annotated Web links, and related resources. Searchable. From the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.

    http://www.unc.edu/awmc/

    moxiect
    October 16, 2003 - 01:23 pm


    Before my grandson passed away, he told me he was taking LATIN in school! So I turned to him an said "Vini Vidi Vici and agricula, agriculae, agriculum" as these were the only words I could remember that he should have recognized. He didn't, but was amazed that I knew Latin! I too had to take two years of Latin it was mandatory for the college course at my high school. But I also learned the Catholic Mass in Latin! And no, I don't remember it.

    To me, English language is much more difficult to learn, maybe it's because I come from a bi-lingual home, but because I had learned Latin it seems a lot easier.

    Bubble
    October 16, 2003 - 01:34 pm
    The Roman Baths, Bath



    http://www.romanbaths.co.uk/

    Shasta Sills
    October 16, 2003 - 02:32 pm
    I'm behind in the discussion, but I was interested in this statement, "No attention was given to athletics." I've never given any attention to athletics either, but I have a theory about them.

    Homo sapiens is a very aggressive animal. That's how he gained ascendance over all the other species on earth. But he knows he is aggressive, and he knows he must control his aggressive instincts or he will annihilate his species. So this is why he developed sports to replace warfare. To divert some of his innate violence into an activity that doesn't result in killing. It hasn't stopped warfare so far, but you have to give him credit for trying.

    The Romans, however, were so dedicated to warfare that they weren't going to waste any energy playing games. That's why they gave no attention to athletics.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 16, 2003 - 04:04 pm
    "What literature did the young Roman read in those first three centuries of the Republic? There were religious hymns and chants, such as the song of the Arval Brethren, and there were popular lays of Rome's historic or legendary past. There were official -- usually priestly -- records of elections, magistracies, events, portents, and holidays.

    "There were farragoes of prose called saturae -- medleys of merry nonsense and erotic banter -- out of which Lucilius would forge a new form for Horace and Juvenal. There were boisterously obscene burlesques or mimes, usually acted by players from Etruria. Some of these performers, coming from the town of Istria, were named istriones, and gave the word histrio (actor) to Latin, and its derivatives to modern tongues.

    "There were also, on holidays or market days, crude, half-impromptu farces that gave their stock characters to thousands of Italian comedies, ancient and modern -- the rich and stupid father, the extravagant love-entangled youth, the maligned virgin, the clever intriguing servant, the glutton always maneuvering for a meal, the rollicking, tumbling clown. Already the last flaunted the gaily colored patches, the long expansive trousers, the large-sleeved doublet, and the shorn head, still familiar to our youth.

    "An exact likeness of Punchinello, or Punch has been found on the frescoes of Pompeii."

    Robby

    JoanK
    October 16, 2003 - 04:08 pm
    i_yona under a different name

    I'm joining late, since I was out all day. I am intrigued by the fact that some languages (English) depend on word order for meaning, and others depend on endings. Biblical Hebrew (the only language I know outside English) is an extreme example of the second: if John hit David it is equally correct to write "John hit David" or "David hit John". This causes problems, since many endings are vowels and Hebrew was written without vowels. For an example of a scholarly dispute on whether or not the Dead Sea Scrolls refer to Christ which hinges on a vowel verb ending, see

    http://www.lehrhaus.org/online/scrolls/scrolls_5.html

    and scroll down to "the War Scroll". Latin is much more practical, perhaps as befits a society that is no longer pastoral.

    I've just been told that the #$%^& place I ordered my book from may not get it to me for three weeks. I'll try to pick up another copy.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 16, 2003 - 04:30 pm
    Joan:--Our discussion of Our Oriental Heritage and The Life of Greece each took ten months. I wouldn't worry too much about three weeks.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 16, 2003 - 04:59 pm
    A VERY INTERESTING STORY about Punchinello.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 16, 2003 - 05:08 pm
    Would you like to become a friend of PUNCH AND JUDY?

    Robby

    Traude S
    October 16, 2003 - 06:21 pm
    Twenty-five posts were waiting for me when I came in a little while ago.

    As you might expect, I found the questions on language fascinating. Even so, my comments will be (relatively) brief.

  • The short answer to TOOKI's question is, yes, there are masculine, feminine and neuter NOUNS, and they require the correct ADJECTIVE (and that's just the beginning - for there must be absolute agreement in the entire sentence.)

  • Yes, a verb can be singular or plural, and that depends (again) on the noun.

  • I cannot IMAGINE how Latin can be taught for three years without a grammar guide book - given the vital importance of grammar and the ironclad rules of agreement of gender, tense, etc. etc.

  • JUSTIN brought up an interesting word, "datum", neuter, singular. The plural of that word is DATA.

    Another neuter word is "bacterium"= singular. The plural is BACTERIA. (Let me gently point out here that it is linguistically incorrect to say "... this data IS correct" or " .. it is believed that A (!) bacteria (!!) is (!!!) responsible ...".

  • As for pronunciation : The fact is that Latin is a "dead" language, and we really have no idea how certain consonants were pronounced. ROBBY pointed to the C and the K words. Scholars have been debating this for a long time; yet there is no definitive answer.

    We had one Latin professor (he succeeded our beloved "Meyerlein" bless him) who endeavored to teach us to pronounce Cicero like Kikero. But by then we were firmly entrenched and sincerely believed that we knew better than he did (ah, the impertinence of youth!). But it never came to an actual conflict because we were into reading Tacitus et alii,and those texts run on for a page or more without paragraph or "regular" punctuation (a little of what José Saramago, the Nobel Prize winner is inflicting on his readers, in BLINDNESS, e.g.), and the student has to concentrate hard on finding the VERB in the mass of words and begin reconstructing from there.

  • Forgive me for disagreeing with anyone who thinks English is difficult to learn. It is not. And it often astonishes me how simple things that are so obvious to speakers of other languages are used incorrectly over and over again.
  • robert b. iadeluca
    October 16, 2003 - 07:05 pm
    Traude:--Your linguistic background is appreciated.

    Regarding the "twenty-five posts waiting for you," it has become obvious to most of us in this two-year experience of Story of Civilization that it is one of the fastest moving forums on Senior Net and that those who would keep up need to check in on a daily basis -- at a minimum. I check in every morning and every night and sometimes more often. What I enjoy so much from the participants in SofC is that the interchange is almost never "Hi, how are you -- I'm fine, how are you -- it looks like rain, etc." Almost every single post contains nuggets of interest.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 16, 2003 - 07:12 pm
    "The boy counted on his fingers (digita), and the figures he used were imitations of an extended digit (I) -- a hand (V), or two hands joined at their apexes (X). He was content to form the other numerals by repeating theese symbols (II,III), and prefixing (IV, IX) or suffixing (VI, XII) digits to V or X to lessen or increase them.

    "Out of this manual arithmetic came the decimal system, constructed on parts and multiples of ten -- i.e. the ten fingers. The Romans used geometry well in building and engineering, but added not one theorem to that rounded achievment of the Greek mind.

    "We hear nothing of Roman astronomy in this period except in its blundering calendar and its prosperous sister or mother -- astrology."

    Robby

    Traude S
    October 16, 2003 - 07:22 pm
    ROBBY, I totally agree.

    In my earlier post I should have said that we were translating those Latin texts, not 'reading' them. By then we were well beyond grammar, and certainly expected to know it, and we were not required to "read out loud". That's why the pronunciation of the C words did not become a conflict.

  • The phrase veni, vidi, vici = I came, I saw, I conquered, is attributed to Ceasar after his victory over Pharnaces, an Asian king.
  • 3kings
    October 16, 2003 - 08:32 pm
    To one innocent of all Latin, is it true that 'one horse ' means ' unique ', from 'un ' meaning one & ' equus' meaning horse ?

    Therefor, is it complimentary to speak of a small town as being 'one horse '.== Trevor

    tooki
    October 16, 2003 - 08:47 pm
    made me curious; they've called him "old Cato," and "not all Romans were Catos." I suppose he will be discussed in detail later, but in the meantime I needed a few crumbs.

    Cato the Elder was Marcus Porcius Cato, aka Cato the Censor, 234-149. He was a well known public figure, courting conflict and speaking his mind to the point of rudeness. He has been called the founder of Latin prose literature.

    Now, get this picture. Doesn't he look like Cato the Censor should look? THE CENSOR

    I hope we find out he did more that look mean.

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 16, 2003 - 09:05 pm
    TREVOR, I never thought of unique as having sprung from un and equus. To call a town "one horse" is not a compliment in this country. Think hayseed in your hair.



    TRAUDE, my hometown was never a rich one. I don't know how it is now; I haven't been there in about 20 years. In 1942 it was trying to recover from the Depression, and the country was in the midst of war. All of the books in our school were falling apart and couldn't be replaced. We kids had to repair them and cover them with brown paper to hold them together. My Latin teacher, of course, had many books in Latin in her library, including grammar. Since we students couldn't have any except Caesar and Cicero, she taught us grammar and vocabulary old-style, by writing everything on the blackboard. By the time we finished two or three years of this, Latin grammar had been pounded into us. We learned English grammar the same way, without books and from the knowledge of the teacher. Fortunately, I had some very good teachers along the way.



    Tonight I watched an old movie called "Roman Holiday". Audrey Hepburn and Gregory Peck are in it, and it's a charming film. I watched it to see Rome, and see it I did. It's unfortunate that I didn't have any idea what I was looking at. Throughout the movie I kept thinking about how old those buildings, streets and fountains are. I'm glad I watched. The movie made me feel good, and that's how I want to feel.

    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 16, 2003 - 09:07 pm
    Punchinello by Tiepolo

    Justin
    October 16, 2003 - 09:25 pm
    Since you are all speaking Latin so well, I thought I would join in with a few choice phrases.

    In hoc signo vinces. In this sign you will conquer.

    Ab imo pectore. From the bottom of one's heart.

    Ab origine. From the beginning.

    Cancer. Crab.

    Pons assinorum. The asses bridge.

    Q.E.D. Quod errat demonstratum. I think.

    Well, so much for speaking Latin.

    Justin
    October 16, 2003 - 09:29 pm
    Quad; Quadrivium: The plaza out side a college dorm. A four-way split.

    JoanK
    October 16, 2003 - 10:16 pm
    Don't forget:

    Carpe dium:(spelling?) Sieze the day

    Justin
    September 29, 2004 - 07:49 pm
    Isn't it fun to be speaking Latin?

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 17, 2003 - 03:28 am
    "Medicine, until the third century, was largely a matter of family herbs, magic, and prayer. The gods alone could heal. To make cure certain a special god was invoked for each disease -- as one now invokes a specialist.

    "Against the mosquitoes of the Roman campagna appeal was made to the goddesses Febris and Mephitis as, until our century, the Romans petioned La Madonna della Febbre, Our Lady of the Fever. Healing shrines and sacred waters were as common as today. The temple of Aesculapius was a busy center of religious healing, where diet and hydrotherapy, peaceful surroundings and a quiet routine, prayer and the soothing ritual of worship, the aid of practical physicians and the cheerfulness of skilled attendants, conspired to restore confidence and to effect apparently miraculous cures.

    "Nevertheless, there were slave doctors and quacks in Rome five centuries before Christ. Some of these practiced dentistry, for the Twelve Tables forbade the burial of gold with the dead except where gold had been used to wire teeth. In 219 we hear of the first freeman physician in Rome -- Archagathus the Peloponnesian. His surgical operations so delighted the patricians that the Senate voted him an official residence and the freedom of the city. Later his 'mania for cutting and burning' won him the name of Carnifex, butcher.

    "From that time onward Greek physicians flocked to Rome, and made the practice of medicine there a Greek monopoly."

    Would I be correct that there will be many postings on this subject?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 17, 2003 - 04:54 am
    Mixing the subjects of medical terms with Latin, I use medical abbreviations when writing notes. These are usually from Latin and are not, as some people think, made to confuse the patient or to put on airs. They are used to save time which is often so important. Writing QID is faster than writing "four times a day." QHS is faster than writing "every night at bedtime."

    Robby

    Ginny
    October 17, 2003 - 06:10 am
    Just to add to the exciting mix here about your enjoyment of Latin (Justin you are too kind) I will say that there are 7 cases in Latin, not 6: Nominative, Genitive, Dative, Accusative, Ablative, Locative and Vocative, although the Locative case, which is similar to our old Adverbial Objective in English, is seldom used. Sea bubble’s example of conficere illustrates a good point, but conficere means a lot more than the two examples given, and THAT illustrates a VERY important point nobody should miss. Just as Wheelock is considered, as Malryn said, the definitive Latin Grammar, so Lewis and Short is the definitive Latin dictionary.

    What makes Lewis and Short definitive is that it has, in its more than 2,000 large pages, with miniscule microscopic entries, every reference known where the ancients used a particular word with the translation.

    For example conficere also means, in addition to the meaings given above, variously,

  • to make a thing completely ready, to prepare, to accomplish, to execute, to bring about, to complete.
  • to settle, to close a bargain, to finish.
  • in travel: to pass over, to traverse, to go over
  • to produce, cause, bring about, effect
  • of time: to complete, end, finish, spend, pass
  • in philosophy: to bring forward, to show, to deduce logically
  • to diminish , lessen, weaken, destroy, sweep away, kill, consume
  • to prepare, provide, procure, bring together
  • to secure the vote….

    And on and on…..

    So while Latin may appear a clumsy poor language, in fact it is one of the richest, but you have to take your words in context, and I think it must be readily apparent that the skill of translation is totally dependent on the background of the translator. THIS is why fights break out over the translation of a few words, and grey beard scholars refuse to speak to each other for years, because you’re not arguing the meaning, that’s there for anybody to see, you’re arguing the vita of the translator.

    Latin was the spoken language spoken over many many hundreds of years. The earliest Latin inscription found dates, according to the Britannica, "not later than 600 BC," The comedies of Plautus (254-184 BC) are the earliest writings we have. Latin went thru a long period, finally passing into the “Patristic Period,” (Late 2nc C. AD -5th Century) when it began to turn into the romance languages of the 6th-14th centuries when it continued as the “living language of the Church and of the intellectual world,” (Wheelock) Wheelock says,
    "Though varying considerably in character and quality, it was an international language, and Medieval Latin literature is sometimes called 'European' in contrast to the earlier 'national Roman.' In this Medieval Latin was written a varied and living literature (religious works, histories, anecdotes, romances, dramas, sacred and secular poetry)….The long life of Latin is attested in the early 14th century by the fact that Dante composed in Latin the political treatise De Monarchia, that he wrote in Latin his De Vulgari Eloquentia to justify his use of the vernacular Italian for literature, and that in Latin pastoral verses he rejected the exhortation to give up the vernacular in which he was writing the Divine Comedy and compose something in Latin...At the same time, by token of Dante’s success and that of others in the use of the vernacular languages, it must be admitted that Latin had begun to wage a losing battle."


    I would also like to say that I think the Durants would be the first to espouse the fact that there have been many new discoveries and changes in thinking since they wrote their books, and they would be filled, themselves, with intellectual curiosity and questions.

    I have not been to any site or museum of Roman artifacts in the last few years that does not bear a placard saying the equivalent of…”it used to be thought that XXX and YYY, but our recent discoveries have proven that false, and what we now know is….” Several long held beliefs just hit the dust in the last few years about inscriptions on some of the military fortifications, if I recall correctly what I just read in Bath this summer. THAT is WHY the Romans and the Latin language itself are so exciting to study: there’s always something more, something more than what it appears, and always something around the corner, waiting to be discovered.

    How good it is to see you speaking Latin here in 2003!

    ginny
  • Bubble
    October 17, 2003 - 06:18 am
    So while Latin may appear a clumsy poor language, in fact it is one of the richest



    Ginny,



    the example you gave, for me, shows that it is a poor language: a rich language would have many different words for each nuances. Even after so many years of speaking Hebrew, although I know lots of words, I could never compete with a linguist here: the richness of the vocabulary is not to be believed. Recently I even learned there is a special word for the skin of a grape different from the skin of peach!

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 17, 2003 - 06:20 am
    Ginny:--Your participation here is SO SO MUCH APPRECIATED!! I am in the process of printing out your post and will read it again at my leisure.

    As you know, Joan Pearson is in Italy. When she returns, please remind her that I asked her to share some of the experiences she had there and to perhaps post some photos she took. She asked me if I was referring to just the city of Rome and I stated (as she knew) that the Roman Empire was much larger than just one city and that anything Italian -- ancient or even later -- was certainly relevant.

    Robby

    Ginny
    October 17, 2003 - 06:35 am
    hahaha Sea bubble: De gustibus, then, I guess: the skin of a peach and the skin of a grape, amazing! We don't have that in English.

    I've written her, Robby, thanks.

    ginny

    tooki
    October 17, 2003 - 06:58 am
    The site below illustrates the Madonna as a postage stamp. It is from "An anonymous 13th century work set within a precious Renaissance tabernacle made by Donatello."

    She Cures My Fever

    She is one of a series of stamps for "definitive Mail," the first to be issued in Euros. From the Vatican Basilica. This Madonna obviously made it from Roman times to now.

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 17, 2003 - 08:14 am
    GINNY, thank you so much for coming in and telling us more about Latin. I think it's wonderful that people are still arguing about how Latin is translated.

    ROBBY, yes, but what are the Latin words for those letters you posted?

    Will somebody please tell me how much it costs to go to the Temple of Aesculapius Spa? Do they have any special deals? If they'd let me take a nap while everyone else is off worshipping and praying, I'd like a week or two there. I sure could use the Aesculapius diet and hydrotherapy and peace, quiet and tranquility that are offered at that Spa right now. Besides, I want to be Bikini Beautiful when the Virginia Bash rolls around next May.

    Despite all the sophisticated medical tests and treatments today, I still think "herbs, magic and prayer" (or faith in healing) will help keep people well. I have firmly believed for a long, long time that our attitude about health is a very big factor in how healthy we are. If you think you'll get well when you're sick, or that you'll stay well when you're not sick, you will be well.

    Mal

    Bubble
    October 17, 2003 - 08:36 am
    Is that how you would explain the Lourdes pilgrims, Mal?

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 17, 2003 - 09:52 am
    BUBBLE, in a word -- YES.

    I also think some of those miracle cures weren't permanent cures at all.

    Mal

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    October 17, 2003 - 01:33 pm
    My granddaughter Katia is studying Latin in First Year High. She just told me something interesting about sewer covers on the streets of Rome, some of them still have the instription S.P.Q.R. "Senatus Populusque Romanus" The Senate and the People of Rome.

    She wants to know how far back they would date, does anyone know?

    Eloïse

    Justin
    October 17, 2003 - 02:15 pm
    Robby: How about T.I.D., B.I.D., and prn. and ¯c?

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 17, 2003 - 05:16 pm
    Justin:--I believe that in a previous posting I mentioned that I often used the letter "c" with a line over it to signify "with." I do this even in non-medical notes to myself. "s" with a line over it is "without." TID is "three times a day." BID is "twice a day." PRN means "as needed."

    Please show me love prn.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 17, 2003 - 05:53 pm
    "The Roman of those centuries had little need of medicine, for his active life in farming or soldiering kept him healthy and strong. He took to the land as the Greek to the sea. He based his life on the soil, built his towns as meeting places for farmers and their products, organized his armies and his state on his readiness to defend and extend his holdings, and conceived his gods as spirits of the living earth and the nourishng sky.

    "War transformed this picture of rural toil. Many of the farmers who changed plowshares for swords were overcome by the enemy or the town and never returned to their fields. Many others found their holdings so damaged by armies or neglect that they had not the courage to begin anew. Others were broken by accumulated debt.

    "Such men sold their lands at depression prices to aristocrats or agricultural capitalists who merged the little homesteads into latifundia (literally, broad farms) -- turned these vast areas from cereals to flocks and herds, orchareds and vines -- and manned them with war-captured slaves under an overseer who was often himself a slave. The owners rode in now and then to look at their property. They no longer put their hands to the work, but lived as absentee landlords in the suburban villas or in Rome.

    "This process, already under way in the fourth century, B.C., had by the end of the third produced a debt-ridden tenant class in the countryside, and in the capital a propertyless, rootless proletariat whose sullen discontent would destroy the Republic that peasant toil had made."

    How ya gonna keep 'em down on the farm, after they've seen Paree?

    Robby

    Justin
    October 17, 2003 - 09:54 pm
    I realize that very few if any stories are new and original. Most novelists copy the work of others and simply give it their own unique twist. However, I thought I could look to Virgil for some original stuff. Now the Durants tell us that Naevius provided some epic poetry from which Virgil drew the tale of Rome's Trojan founding by refugees from the decimated city of Troy.

    The period of Naevius is one in which few Romans read, (Later, of course, that characteristic changes), yet the connection between Rome and Troy, is available for poets to use. It must, as did Beowolf, come from oral stories, but when did it form in the minds of Romans?

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 18, 2003 - 04:29 am
    "There was no gold and little silver in the soil. There was a fair supply of iron, some copper, lead, tin, and zinc, but too scarce to support an industrial development. The state owned all mines in the empire, but leased them to private operators, who worked them profitably by using up the lives of thousands of slaves.

    "Metallurgy and technology made few advances. Bronze was still employed more frequently than iron, and only the best and latest mines were equipped with the winches, windlasses, and chain buckets that Archimedes and others had set up in Sicily and Egypt.

    "The chief fuel was wood. Trees were cut also for houses and ships and furniture. Mile by mile, decade by decade, the forest retreated up the mountainside to meet the timber line.

    "The most prosperous industry was the manufacture of weapons and tools in Campania. There was no factory system, except for armament and pottery. Potters made not only dishes but bricks and tiles, conduits and pipes. At Arretium and elsewhere the potters were copying Greek models and learning to make artistic wares. As early as the sixth century the textile industry, in the design, prepartion, and dyeing of linen and wool, had grown beyond the demestic stage despite the busy spinning of daughters, wives, and slaves.

    "Free and unfree weavers were brought together in small factories, which produced not only for the local market but also for export trade."

    I find it interesting how the production of a civilization is determined not only by the people, themselves, but by the land upon which they live.

    Robby

    georgehd
    October 18, 2003 - 05:56 am
    I note that Durant says that Romans had little need for medicine as they were healthy because of the rigors of life on the farm. I really wonder if this is true. Durant refers to Romans, when he really means Roman men. I suspect that the women and children (and even the less healthy males) could have used medical advise if it were available. But at that time it was not and therefore the historians of that period would have made no reference to medicine. Medicine gets introduced later when Rome conquers countries that did have some kind of medical practice.

    I also found it interesting that men lost their farms because of war and the neglect of the land while they were busy soldiering. The land was then bought by absentee landlords who then reaped the profits from the land and moved that money into the city. Individual farms were combined to form larger and larger tracts. Look at what is happening in American agriculture today. History does repeat itself.

    Robbie, your last comment is very pertinent but leaves out one other element in the evolution of civilization - location on or near navigable water. Land travel was difficult and slow. Though dangerous, the ability to travel by water opened up new lands for conquer and for trade (of both goods and customs).

    I go off island on Tuesday and will be away a lot during the next six weeks but will read ahead in the book. I should be able to rejoin the discussion in December. By then you should be in Book 2.

    tooki
    October 18, 2003 - 06:05 am
    "great estates ruined Italy."

    The passage below is from "Progress and Poverty," by Henry George, 1839-1897, social reformer and economist. To me it describes the exact process going on in the United States. Since the closing of the frontier in 1895, individual small homesteads have been on the decline. In this county the development of gigantic farm monopolies is called "Agribusiness." Many pundits here deplore the decline of rural values, small towns, and other assorted virtues associated with farming.

    "The struggle between the idea of equal rights to the soil and the tendency to monopolize it in individual possession caused the internal conflict of Rome. As the soil passed into the possession of a few, things declined.

    The idea of absolute individual property in land, which modern civilization derived from Rome, reached its full development there. When the future mistress of the world first loomed up, each citizen has his little homestead plot, which was inalienable, and the general domain - "the corn-land that was of public right" - was subject to common use. It was from this public domain, CONSTANTLY EXTENDED BY CONQUEST that the patrician families succeeded in carving their great estates. These great estates finally crushed out all the small proprietors. Their little patrimonies were added to the latifundia of the enormously rich. The small proprietors were forced into the slave gangs, became rent-paying colonii, or were driven into the freshly conquered foreign provinces where land was given to the veterans of the legions. Or else they went to the metropolis, swelling the ranks of the proletariat who had nothing to sell but their vote.

    The result was that while the empire embraced the world, it became in reality a shell, kept from collapse only by the healthier life of the frontiers. At the frontiers the land had been divided between military settlers or the primitive usages longer survived.

    But the latifundia, which had devoured the strength of Italy, crept steadily outward, carving the surface of Sicily, Africa, Spain and Gaul into great estates cultivated by slaves or tenants. The hardy virtues born of personal independence died out."

    And history took its course.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 18, 2003 - 06:07 am
    George:--I'm not sure what you mean by Book 2. We are currently in Book 3. The first one was "Our Oriental Heritage" and the second one was "The Life of Greece." As for our being at the next book by December, I seriously doubt that. I foresee many spirited interchanges here as we move into the Roman Empire.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 18, 2003 - 06:19 am
    That's an extremely interesting quote, Tooki, and may cause many of us to pause, look off into the distance, and think of our current situation. Where I now live, the small individual farms are not being taken over by "estates," per se, but by developments. Many of the farmers wanted to continue but found it financially impossible.

    It is sad. Even the wild animal has (or had) his cave or lair. Even the domestic animal has his dog house or favorite spot under the couch. A human being may have his favorite chair, no matter how worn, and becomes exceedingly upset when it is moved to another area or, worse yet, sold at a yard sale.

    Robby

    georgehd
    October 18, 2003 - 07:41 am
    Robbie, sorry for the confusion. I know that we are in the third book of Durant's history. Within book three, there are divisions called Books. I was referring to Book II which begins with Chapter VI and covers the period 145-30 BC. Book II is titled "The revolution". I will try to read up to chapter IX, Caesar.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 18, 2003 - 08:02 am
    I understand, George. I choose not to refer to them as such (books within a volume) because it might confuse those who do not have "Caesar and Christ." What I do from time to time is start a new "book" by putting it up in large blue letters with the related dates underneath. Right now we are in Stoic Rome (508-202B.C.)

    The smaller sections within each "book" are indicated by the constant changes of the GREEN quotes in the Heading above. Right now we are in Industry.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 18, 2003 - 10:31 am
    "Roads were poor --bridges unsafe -- oxcarts slow -- inns rare -- robbers plentiful. Hence traffic moved by choice along canals and rivers, while coastal towns imported by sea rther than from their hinterland.

    "By 202, however, the Romans had built three of their great 'consular roads' -- so called because they were usually named after the consuls or censors who began them. Soon these highways would far surpass in durability and extent the Persian and Carthaginian roads that had served them as models. The oldest of them was the via Latina which, about 370 B.C., brought Romans out to the Alban hills. In 312 Appius Claudius the Blind, with the labor of thousands of criminals, started the via Appia, or Appian Way, between Rome and Capua.

    "Later it reached out to Beneventum, Venusia, Brundisium, and Tarentum. Its 333 English miles bound the two coasts, eased trade with Greece and the East, and collaborated with the other roads to make Italy one nation.

    "In 241 the censor Aurelius Cotta began the Aurelian Way from Rome through Pisa and Genoa to Antibes. Caius Flaminius in 220 opened the Flaminian Way to Ariminum. About the same time the Valerian Way connected Tibur with Corfinium.

    "Slowly the majestic network grew. The Aemilian Way climbed north from Ariminum through Bononia and Mutina to Placentia (187). The Postumian Way linked Genoa with Verona (148). The via Popilia led from Ariminum through Ravenna to Padua (132). In the following century roads would dart out from Italy to York, Vienna, Thessalonica, and Damascus, and would line the north African coast.

    "They defended, unified, and vitalized the Empire by quickening the movement of troops, intelligence, customs, and ideas. They bcame great channels of commerce, and played no minor role in the peopling and enrichment of Italy and Europe."

    Your thoughts, please, regarding these gigantic undertakings?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 18, 2003 - 11:07 am
    Click HERE to see a map of the massive Roman road system in Italy and throughout the Mediterranean region. Click onto the word "maps." Allow the downloading to bring up the names of all the cities. You can scroll both horizontally and vertically.

    It is understood that the viae that you are seeing were built centuries after the period of Stoic Rome we are now examining. However, it had to begin somewhere and at some time.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 18, 2003 - 11:53 am
    Here is an excellent link showing how ROMAN ROADS are constructed. Note the photo of a road cut through a rocky mountainside.

    Robby

    Bubble
    October 18, 2003 - 11:59 am
    It really was a feat making those roads with no tractor, no digger, no caterpillar, no paving machine... I wonder if they ever thought of painting colored lines on the edges?

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 18, 2003 - 12:16 pm
    Compare this MAP of the American National Highway System with the Ancient Roman system.

    Robby

    JoanK
    October 18, 2003 - 12:19 pm
    Joining the discussion a late. On the quote above on the mining system of Rome, Max Weber, the economist/sociologist did an economic analysis of the industrial slavery ib Rome in "Economy ans Society". Couldn't find the quote, but if I remember it, he concluded that industrial slavery did not pay if the slaves were treated well, it was too expensive. The only way to make it pay was to work the slaves to death and have a constant supply of new slaves. He claimed that this was the motive behind the constant drive to conquer new people, and when the supply of people to conquer dried up, the economy stagnated. Seems a bit simplistic, but a scary thought.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 18, 2003 - 12:24 pm
    Scary, Joan, but it apparently worked. How much is the worth of a human being?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 18, 2003 - 12:46 pm
    "Many and sharp the num'rous ills
    Inwoven with our frame!
    More pointed still we make ourselves,
    Regret, remorse, and shame!
    And man, whose heav'n-erected face
    The smiles of love adorn, -
    Man's inhumanity to man
    Makes countless thousands mourn!

    Robert Burns (1784)

    tooki
    October 18, 2003 - 02:49 pm
    anything else is a waste of your money. Joan K: Post 954 Not that it's important who exactly said it, but I think it wasn't good ol' Max who said that, although he said many good, true things. Unhappily I can't recall the exact source at this moment I think it was actually one of the Romans. I thought maybe it was that old crank, Cato the Censor, but I am unable to locate it in my meager sources. I'm sure Max did quote it; it would be the sort of thing that would catch his fancy. I'll look further. Meanwhile, whoever said it, it's a frightening thought. Wait a minute; it may have been Cortez and his cohorts. That's exactly what they did in Peru. So, we know the idea stuck.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 18, 2003 - 03:01 pm
    "The upper classes looked with contempt upon buying cheap and selling dear, and left trade to Greek and Oriental freedmen. The countryside contented itself with occasional fairs, and 'ninth-day' markets in the towns.

    "Foreign commerce was similarly moderate. Sea transport was risky. Ships were small, made only six miles an hour sailing or rowing, hugged the coast, and for the most part kept timidly in port from November to March.

    "Carthage controlled the wstern Mediterranean. The Hellenistic monarchies controlled the east. Pirates periodically swept out of their lairs upon merchants relatively more honest than themselves.

    "The Tiber was perpetualy silting its mouth, and blocking Rome's port at Ostia. Two hundred vessels foundered there in one gale. The current was so strong that the voyage upstream to Rome hardly repaid the labor and the cost.

    "About 200 B.C. vessels began to put in at Puteoli, 150 miles south of Rome, and ship their goods overland to the capital."

    Robby

    tooki
    October 18, 2003 - 03:42 pm
    I no longer can care about the exact quote about how to be cost effective with your slaves. There are too many examples of such actions. Here is an account of an archaeological site in New York City where slaves were buried early in the history of the United States. When it was cost effective to work your slaves to death.

    On to "contemptous trade."

    Traude S
    October 18, 2003 - 06:36 pm
    May I tie up a few loose ends (mine, dear friends, not yours).

    re # 937 : ELOÏSE, I am not sure about the sewer or any specific connotation, but "SenAtus PopulUsque RomAnus" (*) was a symbol of the pride and glory of ancient Rome, chiseled, carved, immortalized. The letters SPQR mean the same thing, and there is an explanation for the "Q" :

    = tagged on to 'populus' (or other nouns) "que" means "and" and is technically a separate word.

    (*) The capital letters indicate where the stress lay, in the teaching of my time.

    The "latifundi" and their wealthy absentee owners were phenomena in Italy for many centuries after the fall of the Roman Empire. Yet it should be noted that they were much more prevalent in the south of Italy and in Sicily than elsewhere on the peninsula.

    TOOKI, indeed, recorded history is replete with reports on slavery, its excesses and unbelievable cruelties but, sadly, shows also that countless people around the globe are still being used, abused, taken advantage of, discriminated against, and made thorougly miserable for life, even if not called by the dested name of "slave". Think of sweatshops or dirt-cheap child labor and the immense profits involved.

    TOOKI your quote of Pliny reminded me of another dictum of his : Poetis mentiri licet , i.e. an approval of what we call "poetic license".

    ROBBY, are the Romans' military forays described in further chapters so that we can see where they went and if they reached Paree ?

    3kings
    October 18, 2003 - 07:22 pm
    Those sites that discuss the building of Roman roads are fascinating. Thanks for posting them. What really amazes me was their tunneling. I believe they worked from both ends, and managed to meet in the middle. How did they do that? Even in these days, such a feat is a marvel of surveying.== Trevor

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 18, 2003 - 08:14 pm
    Trevor:--Your comment reminded me of a joke I heard many moons ago. When the Chinese wanted to bore a tunnel through a mountain, they put a bunch of coolies at one side and another at the other side. If they met, they had a tunnel. If they didn't meet, they had two tunnels.

    Robby

    JoanK
    October 18, 2003 - 09:39 pm
    Thanks for the joke, Robby. I needed it after reading Tooki's important but incredibly disturbing link.I am still crying.

    Unfortunately Tooki, Max's analysis is even WORSE than "working slaves to death is economically sensible." If I understand him, he is saying that it was not just sensible, but NECESSARY; that it was not a matter of individual greed or cruelty. The whole economy was based on working slaves to death, and could not have functioned without it -- indeed decayed when it was no longer possible. Makes me wonder what is necessary to our economy's functioning.

    Malryn (Mal)
    October 19, 2003 - 03:57 am
    Why does it surprise anyone that slaves were used this way? Haven't we come across the same thing in practically every civilization we've read about and discussed so far?

    Mal

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 19, 2003 - 04:42 am
    Many people in our culture look back to the Roman civilization as one that furthered mankind. We, ourselves, gained much from it. What if they said:--"Using slaves in that fashion is untenable. We just won't do it." As a result -- no roads leading to all areas of Europe, no buildings built, no ships traveling to distant areas, no large farms tilled, no minerals mined, etc. etc. etc.

    As we examine the progress of mankind (see Voltaire's quote in Heading above), would that have been the better choice?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 19, 2003 - 05:07 am
    "To facilitate this external and internal trade, it became necessary to establish a state-guaranteed system of coinage, measures, and weights. Until the fourth century B.C., cattle were still accepted as a medium of exchange, since they were universally valuable and easily moved.

    "As trade grew, rude chunks of copper (aes) were used as money (ca. 330 B.C.). Estimate was originally aes tumare -- to value copper. The unit of value was the as (one) -- i.e. one pound of copper by weight. Ex-pend meant weighed out.

    "When, about 338 B.C. a copper coinage was issed by the state, it often bore the image of an ox, a sheep, or a hog, and was accordingly called pecunia (pecus, cattle). In the First Punic War, says Pliney, 'the republic, not having means to meet its needs, reduced the as to two ounces of copper. By this contrivance a saving of five sixths was effected, and the public debt was liquidated.

    "By 202 the as had fallen to an ounce. In 87 B.C. it was reduced to half an ounce to help finance the Social War. In 260 two silver coins were minted:--the denarius, equal to ten asses, and corresponding to the Athenian drachma in the latter's depreciated Hellenistic form, and the sestertius, representing two and half asses, or a quarter of a denarius.

    "In 217 appeared the first Roman gold coins -- the aurei -- with values of twenty, forty, and sixty sesterces. In metallic equivalence the as would equal two, the sesterce five, the denarius twenty cents in the currency of the United States. As precious metals were much less plentiful than now, and therefore had a purchasing power several times greater than today, we shall, ignoring price fluctuations before Nero, roughly equate the as, sesterce, denarius, and talent (6000 denarii) of the Roman Republic with six, fifteen, and sixty cents, and $3,600 respectively, in terms of United States currency in 1942."

    This passage illustrates one of the reasons I like the way the Durants write. Other historians might have made this a dry economic explanation but here it is brought down to common understanding and, as a bonus, we learn the origin of some of the words we now use (pecuniary, expenditure.)

    Robby

    tooki
    October 19, 2003 - 05:46 am
    I think the Romans could have accomplished their aims without resorting to, as Joan points out, the economic NECESSITY of working their slaves to death. It would have taken longer. However, my statement brings up an host of other wretched questions: Would slaves have been better off dead than draging through a life of misery? If, as Trude indicated and I accept, slavery is still operative in many contries currently, then have we passed at all from barbarism to civilization? Maybe all we have done is pass from a state of technological innocence to sophisicated stuff. We now have Hum Vees to drive over those Roman Roads.

    tooki
    October 19, 2003 - 06:00 am
    Robby: Another plus for the approach to Durant that you have espoused is that we get to look at pretty pictures, allowing us to visualize some aspects of ancient life. My comment here is, I realized, in direct contradiction to my statement above about "technological stuff."

    The site below contains lovely Roman coins. I think Mal showed us some earlier, but perhaps another view at this time is appropriate.

    Roman Coins

    I just looked at the pictures; sometimes my head gets too full and starts to spill out if I read too much.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 19, 2003 - 06:02 am
    "We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal - - - "

    Declaration of Independence

    Starting with the premise that the term "men" is generic and means women as well --

    Is that statement true?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 19, 2003 - 06:10 am
    For those who may be interested, this LINK tells us of the origin and creation of the American dollar.

    Robby

    georgehd
    October 19, 2003 - 06:11 am
    All men are created equal and slavery - first the men who wrote that line owned slaves. These were educated men who probably did not think of slaves as men and certainly not as equals. When economics required, most civilizations, and I use that term loosely, used slave or at least underpaid labor. Our railroads were built using Oriental labor that was paid next to nothing. Our fruits and vegetables from California are harvested often by illegals from Mexico who are paid next to nothing. In Gandhi's autobiography, he describes the slave like conditions of the Indian population of South Africa at the turn of the century.

    I find it interesting that in all the cases I cited, it is the white Christian population that used slaves or serfs or indentured servants. Were slaves ever employed in the Orient? Or is the practice of slavery a heritage of Western 'culture'???

    I would welcome some greenbacks with Woodrow Wilson' picture. I would even put my address on Senior Net.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 19, 2003 - 06:11 am
    For those who may be interested, this LINK tells us of the origin and creation of the American dollar.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 19, 2003 - 06:17 am
    I always warn participants to check out the origin of any of the links we read. Here is a fascinating story of how the American Dollar represents EASTERN PHILOSOPHY.

    You may not believe any of it.

    On the other hand, you may.

    Robby

    HubertPaul
    October 19, 2003 - 11:25 am
    You may not believe any of it.

    On the other hand, you may.

    I like that:>)

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 19, 2003 - 11:40 am
    Bert:--Which one are you?

    Robby

    HubertPaul
    October 19, 2003 - 11:59 am
    top secret

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 19, 2003 - 12:05 pm
    Inasmuch as this has been a very quiet Sunday in this discussion group, I am assuming that everyone else is being secretive, too.

    Robby

    Bubble
    October 19, 2003 - 12:24 pm
    and right you are!

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 19, 2003 - 12:45 pm
    Oh, my God! Has civilization come to an end?

    Robby

    Bubble
    October 19, 2003 - 01:34 pm
    God forbid...

    But thou shall rest on the seventh day...

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 19, 2003 - 01:51 pm
    Touche!!

    I shall immediately go downstairs and watch some garbage on the TV.

    Robby

    Shasta Sills
    October 19, 2003 - 02:24 pm
    It's not just the white Christian populations who owned slaves. At the time we are discussing, the Romans weren't Christians. The slaves who built the pyramids weren't Christians either. I think slavery must have been prevalent in most civilizations. It's very depressing to think about how much cruelty is inherent in human nature. No, of course all men are not born equal. Even if societies could enforce equality, nature certainly does not. I've been watching the news about the latest conjoined twins that have been separated. What terrible things nature can inflict on humans!

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 19, 2003 - 02:35 pm
    If I remember correctly, when in Durant's first volume we examined Sumeria's civilization 3-4000 years ago, there were slaves. I remember reading Aldous Huxley's book, "Brave New World," in which people were divided into Alphas, the very smartest, and Deltas, the bottom of the heap. And also, if I remember correctly, the Deltas, not knowing any better, were quite happy with their lot.

    Shasta says:--"No, of course all men are not born equal." Agree? Disagree?

    Robby

    Bubble
    October 19, 2003 - 02:53 pm
    We had some Africans from Congo visiting here recently, on a tour for learning new agricultural technology. We talked about the situation there now and before the independence. Candidly they told me that life was better and happier then. They had food, good medical team and medication, schools for the kids and steady work. Now the country is poor and the economy in shambles. They have the independence but cannot rely on their leaders to better their lot and take the country forward. Did they feel Deltas then? I don't think so. They certainly don't act as Alphas either.

    JoanK
    October 19, 2003 - 04:52 pm
    They are beautiful. I note that they almost all are portraits if people, rather than animals, except for the lovely dolphin from Thrace (right, toward the top). It reminds me of Inuit carvings.

    Traude S
    October 19, 2003 - 05:59 pm
    A bold, encouraging affirmation. But I tend to agree with Shasta.

    Though perhaps not relevant here at first sight (but perhaps food for thought), this reminded me of an aphorism by Austrian novelist Marie von Ebner-Eschenbach (1830-1916) :

    The world belongs to those who claim it, not those to whom it should rightfully belong.

    tooki
    October 19, 2003 - 08:15 pm
    This site agrees with Robby and Shasta. Slavery began as soon as it was possible for men to capture other men. "Most people of ancient society regarded slavery as a natural condition of life that could occur to anyone at anytime."

    Origins of Slavery

    Interestingly, the internet resources on "origins" seem scant. Most of the sites deal with slavery in America. However, some years ago I researched the question of origins, and there are many, many books on the subject. It has been a topic of intellectual interest almost as long as it has existed.

    tooki
    October 19, 2003 - 08:32 pm
    from which the rights of property originate, is an insuperable obstacle to a uniformity of interest." James Madision

    Robby asked the question (are all men created equal), and Shasta and Trude say no. I agree, and here is a site to state the case.

    What About Women, Blacks, Native Americans, etc.?

    HubertPaul
    October 19, 2003 - 09:35 pm
    All men are created equal. It is just that some are more equal than others :>)

    Justin
    October 19, 2003 - 11:20 pm
    We hold these truths to be sacred and undeniable that all men are created equal. If independent, that from that equality they derive inherent and inalienable rights among which are life liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

    During the Continental Congress, Adams introduced a motion "That these united colonies are, and of a right ought to be, free and independent states". Debate was postponed until July 1, and in the meantime a committee consisting of Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, Roger Sherman, and Robert Livingston were to draw up a declaration of independence. The work was done almost entirely by Jefferson as shown above.

    Franklin and Adams edited the first draft. They gave us "self evident", and "they are endowed by their creator with inherent and inalienable rights. That among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of hapiness." "Created equal" appeared in the first draft and remained to the last draft.

    I think it is clear that all men are created equal in that they are entitled to life. It is only in "the right to liberty and pursuit of happiness" that some question arises. Women and Slaves are exempt from the right to liberty. Women may pursue happiness. Slaves may not. As it turned out many others were thought to be exempt from these rights. Jews, Catholics, Blacks, Asians,Gays and Lesbians, have all been deprived of these rights from time to time.

    I think these fathers are saying every babe starts life "tabula rosa" and is entitled to these three rights. But it is the entitlement that is questionable.

    I agree with those who recognize that we are not all created "equal".

    If we recognize this fallacy so easily, Jefferson, Franklin and Adams must also have recognized the fallacy. Franklin read it but did not challenge it. Neither did Adams. The declaration is not meaningless. These guys were smart cookies. What did they mean by "created equal"? Were women and slaves considered so unimportant that the fallacy was not recognized? Abigail Adams said to John when he left to attend the Congess "Remember the Ladies".

    The "created equal" phrase has always confounded me. Some have said it means" equal before the law" but that doesn't work either. Is there a rational explanation?

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 20, 2003 - 03:40 am
    Bert is of course quoting the comment of Napoleon, the pig, in "The Animal Farm." Various comments here have been indicating the relationship (beneficial at times) between slavery and industry. We continue now with Durant's additional remarks about Industry.

    "Industry was in the hands of independent craftsmen, working in their separate shops. Most such men were freemen, but an increasing proportion were freedmen or slaves. Labor was highly differentiated, and produced for the market rather than for the individual customer.

    "Competition by slaves depressed the wages of free workers, and reduced the proletariat to a bitter life in slums. Strikes among these men were impracticable and rare but slave uprisings were frequent. The 'First Servile War' (139 B.C.) was not the first. When public discontent became acute, some cause could be found for a war that would provide universal employment, spread depreciated money, and turn the wrath of the people against a foreign foe whose lands would feed the Roman people victorious, or receive them defeated and dead.

    "The free workers had unions or guilds (collegia), but these seldom concerned themselves with wages, hours, or conditions of labor. The chief aim of such unions was the simple pleasure of social intercourse. Many of them were also mutual-benefit societies to defray the cost of funerals.

    "The state regulated not only the guilds, but many aspects of Rome's economic life. It supervised the operation of mines and other governmental concessions or contracts. It quieted agitation among the plebs by importing food and distributing it at nominal prices to the poor or to all applicants. It levied fines upon monopolists, and it nationalized the salt industry to end a monopoly that had raised the price of salt beyond the reach of the working class.

    "All in all, its revenues were modest and like other civilized states it used them chiefly for war."

    So -- what's new?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 20, 2003 - 04:21 am
    Speaking of "what's new," this article from today's New York Times tells of CLASS WARFARE going on in our own time.

    Robby

    tooki
    October 20, 2003 - 07:07 am
    I find this passage interesting, raising questions that I hope will be answered anon.

    A fine distinction is made between "freemen" and "freedman." Does this imply a class distinction or a legal one? Both?

    "Competition by slaves depressed the wages of free workers. . . ." Wouldn't this competition be the result of the pressure of their patrician owner, not the slaves themselves, who only do what they are ordered to do?

    Am I missing something? It's fairly early out here in the Pacific Northwest.

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 20, 2003 - 07:21 am
    Tooki:--I noticed that distinction also. Others here may give more succinct answers but I interpret that to mean those who were always free and those who had previously been slaves. I would assume that freemen were considered a cut above freedmen and I would call that a class distinction.

    In the South before the Civil War, wouldn't free work by slaves depress the wages of free workers?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    October 20, 2003 - 07:43 am
    We are about to have the 1000th posting so Jane will be in shortly to move us on to another page. This should make no difference in our interchange of ideas -- EXCEPT! -- we must make certain we click onto the SUBSCRIBE button when we get there. Otherwise we not be automatically brought back here and that would be a disaster!

    Robby

    tooki
    October 20, 2003 - 12:16 pm
    Robby, you're correct about the slaves being free labor, and because it was free it would depress the wages of freemen. What an anomaly, to be worth less as a freeman than as a slave. No wonder economics is considered "the dismal science." What a difficult variable slavery was to work into the gross national product of a county.

    Bubble
    October 20, 2003 - 12:20 pm
    Boys Who Labored in Nigeria Return Home By VIRGILE AHISSOU and GLENN McKENZIE

    COTONOU, Benin (AP) - Their bodies scarred by beatings and their hands callused from breaking rocks, 74 boys as young as 4 received medical treatment Thursday after their rescue from Nigerian granite quarries where they were forced to work.

    Nigerian police rescued the boys Wednesday and repatriated them to Benin under an accord between the two nations on child trafficking and other cross-border crimes.

    Following their rescue - only the second of its kind in West Africa - the children told authorities that over the previous three months at least 13 other boys died, succumbing to exhaustion, disease, hunger and abuse, Nigerian police and aid workers said.

    ``We would break the stones, and the men would come take them away in trucks,'' one boy told The Associated Press. Skinny, filthy, scratched and heavily scarred, the boy looked no more than 10.

    The children, many just hip-high with bare chests showing white scars, hung from the windows of the buses that authorities used to return them from Nigeria to Benin, where they had been taken by traffickers and sold as child labor.

    Authorities in Benin assembled the children - none older than 15 - in a soccer stadium, preparing them for the return to their families. Officials prevented reporters from questioning them in detail about their experiences.

    In Nigeria, granite pit bosses buried the dead children in shallow graves near the quarries, said Kemi Olumefun, whose Nigerian women's charity helped rescue the children after receiving tips about the brutal conditions.

    Child labor and labor-trafficking are common across West Africa - while mass operations to rescue the victims are extremely rare.

    Under an accord signed in August, the neighboring countries are cooperating to find and return children who have been forced into grueling and dangerous labor.

    The first rescue under the pact came Sept. 27, when authorities brought back 116 children who had been put to work in the granite quarries of southwest Nigeria.

    Three of the children died later at a camp where Nigerian authorities brought them before repatriation, Olumefun said.

    Most of the children worked at a granite quarry near Abeokuta, the hometown of Nigerian President Olusegun Obasanjo.

    Intervention by the governments may stem from increased international attention to child labor, said Frans Roselaers at the International Labor Organization in Geneva. The attention includes boycott threats of Ivory Coast cocoa, often harvested with the help of trafficked children.

    ``We've noticed that the governments in West Africa have increased commitment to eradication of the root causes of child trafficking and labor,'' Roselaers said.

    ``They weren't that much aware or focused on it before. They felt the heat of being denounced for having unacceptable labor practices,'' Roselaers said.

    Nigerian police believe at least 6,000 children from Benin alone still labor in the country's granite pits in the southwest.

    On Thursday, Benin sent teams back across the border into Nigeria to find them, Benin Families Minister Latoundji Lauriano said.

    Nigerian police returned the 74 children to Benin late Wednesday. The boys told social workers that quarry operators were gone when police arrived to free them.

    In Cotonou, a major commercial port city in Benin, social workers and health workers scrubbed the children, gave them into clean clothes and injections to prevent disease.

    ``The children must be washed, dressed and allowed to rest a little before social workers can start interviewing them to find their parents and return them to their families,'' Lauriano said.

    The children's parents had put them in the hands of labor traffickers for as little as $35, said Philippe Duamelle, an official with the United Nations Children's Fund in Cotonou.

    The children themselves received 35 cents a day for breaking stones with mallets, said Olumefun, whose group, the Women's Consortium of Nigeria, tended to the children immediately after their rescue.

    Some had been working in the quarries up to four years, she said.

    ``They were subjected to work and very harsh conditions. You can imagine a 7-year-old boy being compelled to crush a lorry-load of gravel. They were poorly fed,'' Olumefun said. ``And in the process, some of them fell sick and died.''

    Associated Press writer Glenn McKenzie contributed to this report from Lagos, Nigeria.

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    October 20, 2003 - 12:24 pm
    Picture a National French television program called "L'école des fans" or 'School For Fans' where 5 yrs olds perform songs from their idols. The parents are sitting in the audience proud of their kid's extraordinary talents. The host, usually a well known artist himself first asks a few questions to the child, something like where does his mother work and what she does there. The child is usually very candid and says what he hears at home.

    This little boy about to perform on stage was very talkative and he loved to be in the limelight. Where does your mother work? the host asks. The kid seriously answers that she works at such and such, a well known large company. And what is her job there? he is asked. The kid seriously answers: She is a slave.

    Well I never heard so much laughter coming from an audience because now all of the country knew that the mother refers to her job in this company as slavework. Want to bet that she had to look for another job?

    Women often refer to their work in the house as slavework because of low pay and low appreciation from those whom she tries so hard to please.

    Eloïse

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    October 20, 2003 - 12:34 pm
    Bubble, what you described in your post is so inhuman and it is not the only place where child labor is a common practice. When I buy an article that seems inexpensive, I always wonder if a child was not involved in making that product.

    jane
    October 20, 2003 - 12:52 pm
    Time to gather up your books, glasses, pens, research notes, reference books and snacks...and move over to a new discussion area....

    Story of Civilization Vol. III, Part 2