---Rembrandt's Eyes by Simon Schama ~ 5/31/06

Rembrandt's Eyes

Click for larger image

Remebrandt's Eye
taken from Rembrandt van Rijn's
Self-Portrait 1669
Oil on canvas
86 x 70.5 cm
National Gallery, London
Thank you, Brian

Draw up a chair here and talk with us about a fascinating man and his times: Rembrandt. Join us in our A Page a Day Book Club! That's right: we're reading and discussing only ONE page a day, meeting on the weekends, but you can say anything you like at any time.

Our First Selection is: Rembrandt's Eyes by Simon Schama

"I am learning more than I dared to hope, and am ENJOYING it immensely" --Brian
"We should apologize for daring to speak about painting." -- Paul Valery.
Celebrate! Page 600!!
Help us read the last 202 pages and redefine the concept of Per Diem, hahaha and join in today.

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Web Art Gallery submitted by Joan K and Claire
Simon Schama Video and Audio Interview submitted by EmmaBarb
REMBRANDT, life, paintings, etchings, drawings & self portraits
Painting (computer generated) by EmmaBarb

Discussion Leader: ginny

Rembrandt's Studio, 2005

Rembrandt's Eyes: Part I

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whooh hoooo 1,000 posts and climbing, thank you Jane!

No read on in the interesting areas and signal here when you're ready to proceed or what you'd like to talk about.

I used to know quite an interesting family and the mother was an artist, liked those still lifes with dead rabbits and fruit and rats and stuff so she'd keep them in the refrigerator, so they would not whatever as she was painting them and boy it was quite the interesting shock to go for a soda hahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Imagine what it would have been in Rembrandt's day (who?)

Let's read on!

Emma, Jerusalem artichokes are not real artichokes. They have no relationship to artichokes at all, they're tubers. You dig them up and sort of substitute the tuberous roots for potatoes. They got the name Jerusalem because the actual French word for them was girasol (the flowers rotate to follow the sun over the course of the day, hence gira-sol.)

Like they did with dent de lion, the English corrupted the word "girasol" to Jerusalem.

I never really acquired a taste for Jerusalem artichokes, but, like you, I do like "real" artichokes, Yum!

Ginny, Finding a whole dead animal in your 'fridge would put off your appetite for a while, wouldn't it? I havn't seen many dead animals in the Rembrandts we've looked at so far. Lots of live ones, especially dogs. I guess he wasn't much for still-lifes, and that's OK with me.

Rich

Reading on, we have Rembrandt moving to Amsterdam in 1631. The author did a good job of showing us that Amsterdam was where the "action" was in 1631.

I remember reading some time ago about Peter the Great of Russia. Today's travel brochures describe the great city of his creation, Saint Petersburg, as the "Venice of the North." That's a misnomer, Saint Petersburg is the "Amsterdam of the North." Peter the Great visited the city of Amsterdam, and had never seen anything like it. He pledged to build a magnificent city like Amsterdam on the Baltic Sea to make Russia a cultural and trading presence like the Amsterdam that so impressed him.

If I have my dates correct, Rembrandt might even have been in the city when Peter came to Amsterdam. I think St.Petersburg was founded around 1700, and Rembrandt as a young man moved to Amsterdam in 1631.

Rich

I'm writing this in another posting because the thought is so different than the previous topic.

After reading p325: "On Palm Sunday, Smout preached an inflammatory sermon commanding those obedient to the word of the Lord to rise up in indignation against the godless burgomasters and their henchmen. A riot duly followed, and two in the crowd were shot during its supression by the city militia companies."

Does that sound similar to the stories we get out of the Middle East these days, where a mullah whips up a crowd and they are sent out of the mosque to do destruction to the people and property of a different religious sect. When did Christianity get over that urge, and can we hope that Islam will some day get to that point?

Rich

Yes. There's so much of that throughout history, and everywhere!

That's interesting also about Peter the Great and Amsterdam, Rich. I did not know that. Did you know Brugge is called The Venice of the North?

Interesting!

I just bought a book on Nicholas and Alexandra because ever since I saw The Lost Prince I have been kind of interested in George V and his cousin Nicholas, of Russia. The last Tsar I guess.

Ginny, If the book about Nicholas and Alexandra is by Massie, he's the same one who wrote the book "Peter The Great," one of the most interesting books I ever read.

Regarding Czar Peter and the city of Amsterdam, as a young man, he actually went to Amsterdam in disguise and got himself various manual labor jobs in the ship building industry so that he could learn ship building literally from the ground up! Russians at the time knew very little about ship building, and the Dutch were masters of that skill, as well as proficient in international commerce. Amsterdam was the center of all the knowledge that Peter wanted to acquire, and it became the model for the city of Saint Petersburg that Czar Peter later created.

He took back what he learned about ship building and built a Russian fleet that later defeated King Charles of Sweden, and gave the Ottoman Empire a run for its money on the Black Sea.

Rich

And wow a new spot, thanks Jane. I hope the other discussion will be archived at least 'til we finish the book.

Ginny ~ I read my article about Mary Magdelene in Smithsonian mag now I'm ready to go on with Rembrandt.

Rich - oh I forgot what Jerusalem artichokes were. You did provide some good information on how they got the name that I did not know. It's interesting how they follow the sun....sunflowers do that too. I wonder how many other flowers do that ? Well this is not the discussion for that.

Emma

It IS the Massie!!!!!!!!! And you make the other one sound SO interesting! I've already looked ahead to the part about George V. I have become fascinated by George V and finally got what they say is THE definitive biography of him by Kenneth Rose, whose book has long been hard to get and which won the Whitbread and the Wolfson Prizes.

Rose had access to Stamfordham's private diaries of the time, and papers of Queen Elizabeth. Stamforham was King George's Private Secretary and apparently wrote what really happened from the English side during the Russian Revolution, it's really good.

I did not realize that George V was actually euthanized! That shocks me, there seems really no good reason.

At any rate it's interesting.

I've put up our new dates but am afraid to jack on 7 more new pages till I see where everybody is, just SAY?

I'm on page 330.

EmmaBarb, that article on Mary Magdalene was quite interesting, wasn't it? I'm still reading it, a lot I did not know. I see the author's name but I don't know who he is: did you catch his credentials?

I thought you all since we're talking of the Tsars of Russia, might like to see this photograph.

It's not in the Nicholas and Alexandra book, which I was disappointed at, but I think there's a good reason when you think about it, but this is Nicholas II, Tsar of Russia on the left (father of Anastasia who was murdered with him, of course, in the Russian Revolution) and George V (father of the Duke of Windsor) of England on the right. Isn't the resemblance amazing?

They were cousins, and very close. For a somewhat revealing look at them you might want to watch if you get a chance, The Lost (I think it is) Prince, which I liked very much, it shows quite a lot of interesting things about both.

Oh mercy I need to be cloned to read all these good books

Ginny ~ lots of info in the article I didn't know or remember in my early years of learning. I read the article twice. Not sure if I noticed the author's credentials...if I did it didn't register. I had my mind on another book I'm thinking of reading called "Stumbling on Happiness" by Daniel Gilbert....it's not a how to or help book but really deep as I understand. Dan was being interviewed by Charlie Rose while I was trying to read the article.

What a nice looking couple of men Nicholas II and George V. They sure do look very much alike. I watched the Lost Prince I think....wasn't that on TV last year ?

Emma

EMMA:I saw that interview too. Let me know if the book is good. The author makes clear that it is not a self-help book.

I'm on p335 of the reading. I got a kick about the author's reference to how English gentry wanted to appear on their portraits. "The first requirement of a successful court portraitist in England, on the other hand, was the ability to portray men and women doing absolutely nothing and doing it beautifully."

Apparently Rembrandt's contemporary, Lievens (now in London) subscribed to that school, and Rembrandt, back in Amsterdam began his own radical departure in portraiture.

Rich

I'm on p.332 of the book. I'm not sure I could have painted portraits with such strict specs. How about that assembly line of painting portraits, someone painted the body mass, someone else painted the hands etc. and "the" commissioned artist put the finishing touches and signed his name. Rubens was famous for having his students do all that. You've seen those paintings they sell at hotels and open markets they call originals. They are colorful and pretty and cheap but definitely not an original. They are assembly line painting (my art teacher used to call that type of painting prostitute art), the last person signs an unknown name to the painting.

JoanK ~ I haven't been to BooksAMillion yet to check out some books I want to order. That Gilbert book sells for $39.95 in hardback so I may wait for the paperback since it's not an art book
Emma

I'm finally caught up. I'm on page 339, in the middle of R's portraits. I love them! After I look at one, I really feel "Oh, I know that person! The eighty year old woman looks just like my mother: sore eye and all.

I was reading my local Sunday paper last night [a day late and a dollar short - the story of my life] and came across a book review of Schama's latest book, "Rough Crossings: Britain, the Slaves, the the American Revolution." It's about slaves who allied with the British to gain their freedom. It's a short book for Simon - only 478 pages. It wasn't a bad review - but it wasn't a rave review either.

All RIIIGHT! You guys are AHEAD of me now! Let's put it up to page 340 and add the extra week, let ME catch up and let's discuss!

I love Rembrandt's old women! They are magic. I think he's much better with old people period than he is young ones, have you noticed?

Anyway, let me adjust the heading and off we go!

Suec, yes I've been seeing that everywhere, too, I am not sure why it's causing such a splash, can you figure that out? At any rate he's still writing. And writing. And writing! hahaha But I do feel I'm learning!!!!

Let's talk about what you see up to and including page 340!!

(Can you IMAGINE writing this thing? I do think it was a labor of love, he just gets so enthused and feels that if you don't know XX about YY you can't understand ZZZ so off he goes, I do have that feeling.

EmmaBarb, the Lost Prince WAS on PBS, that's where I saw a snatch of it, I am obsessed with the guy who played George V in it, he's SOOO good!

Sue,

I was not aware that Schama had a recent book out, and with a new perspective on the American revolution. I may not be able to resist that one. There are so many sidelights to the American revolution that I find interesting.

It seems that at the time of the start of the revolution, only about one third of the population were in favor, one third were opposed, and one third could go either way depending on how the "winds of war" were blowing. If George III had been a little more reasonable, we Americans might be speaking English today.

Another interesting thing I learned recently was that after the war began, the area in Canada that is now Nova Scotia expressed interest in joining the revolution. George Washington discouraged them by indicating that he was incapable of managing a conflict over such a large area.

Now back to Rembrandt.

Rich

Well 06.06.06 is almost over and the world hasn't come to an end yet.

Brian - Sorry about your top player getting injured. I'm hoping for an Oilers win for you on Saturday. Go Oilers !

Ginny ~ I don't remember who played George V in the Lost Prince. It's been awhile since I saw it on PBS and that was just by chance I happened onto it. I watch PBS a lot. Just today I learned there is now a permanent link to SeniorNet web site on PBS where it says "start a local program club site". Did you see that ?

I sometimes have the feeling Prof. Schama would be hard to sit face to face with and have a two way conversation (at least with me it would).

Emma

Rich,

I understand the History Channel has a new series on the American Revolution [it started last week in my area]. Somehow, I think the book's release may be tied into the series...I wouldn't be surprised to see Schama pop up on Book TV around July 4th. Like you, I never realized Nova Scotia played a part in American history...it was the destination of many of the freed slaves. I understand they didn't fair too well. Back to the Netherlands.

Yes, Emmabarb, I agree. I wouldn't want to have a converation with Prof S.

Sue, Nova Scotia is one of my favorite places on this earth.

When I was growing up in the Boston area, there was an annual ceremony of the lighting of a huge Christmas tree on Boston Common. A tree was sent to Boston every year as a Christmas gift from the people of Halifax, Nova Scotia, in thanks for the aid given by the people of Boston early in the last century when the city of Halifax was nearly obliterated.

Around 1912, (don't hold me to the exact year) a French freighter loaded with explosives for the war in Europe accidentally blew up in Halifax harbor. The explosion was probably the size of a small 'nuke.' Halifax was leveled. You can still see evidence of the Halifax blast, today, almost a century later. City organizations and charities from Boston were some of the first, and most generous in bringing aid to the city and its people. The people of Halifax have not forgotten it, and, to the best of my knowledge, continue the Christmas tree "gift" tradition to this day.

Mrs Rich7 and I have spent a number of wonderful summers in Nova Scotia, especially along the beautiful Cabot Trail, one of the most scenic seaside drives in the world. The people are especially friendly, also. The French , Scottish, and English traditions are evident in the crafts and music all over the small province.

During and after the American revolution, people who remained loyal to the king moved from New England into New Brunswick and Nova Scotia. Those Loyalists (as they were called) built communities in Nova Scotia that today would be hard to differentiate from early New England villages of the 1800's.

Sound like the Chamber of Commerce, don't I? Maybe it's nostalgia for lighthouses, and lobsters from the cold north Atlantic, as I sit here, typing on a hot day in the Sonoran desert.

Ginny, I promise I'll get back to Rembrandt.

Rich

Portrait of Nicolaes Ruts, fur trader: (Schama writes p.334)........"resting on the edge of a table" ? Looks more like the back of a chair to me.

Did anyone get a copy of the Rembrandt DVD yet ? I'm curious if you like it or not.

Your good wishes for the Oilers are appreciated. The "Carolina Hurricanes" slaughtered our team in the last game, and it was not the fault of the back-up goalie who had been injured. Saturday's home game will decide the fate of the series. If we go down three games, there is little chance of winning a best of seven series.

It ha rained continuously for the last three days (a most unusual occurrence in Sunny Alberta) , I am unable to get out on the golf course, and I hope that is not an omen for the upcoming game.

I will have to console myself by reading a bit more Schama.

Brian

Brian, The Oilers will win this home game. The hockey gods favor a home win. They're a much better team than they have shown so far in the series.

Anything can happen. After the first two games in 1971, Montreal was down 0 games to 2 to the Blackhawks, yet they went on to win the Stanley Cup in seven games.

Now to Rembrandt's Eyes... Emma, Definitely the back of a chair, not the edge of a table.

I'm learning to strangely enjoy the author's side trips into peripheral detail unrelated to Rembrandt. (His latest, after mentioning that the Portrait of Nicholas Ruts showed him wearing sable, sent us into an explanation about a particular Siberian berry that Russian sables love to eat, however it gives them a skin irritation which compels them to scratch their fur against tree bark, thereby diminishing the quality of their fur.) Such a discussion has only the remotest connection to the artist Rembrandt, but, as I mentioned, strangely interesting none the less.

Have I been reading Schama too long?

Rich

And specifically to the eyes he "gave" Nicolaes Rut.

By painting him with his body facing to the left, and his head turned to the right, Rembrandt has shown us the Mona Lisa effect. Our sitter is observing us, whether we look at the painting from the left or from the right. Rembrandt has given him the air of "damn, I'm good", and Schama can't resist telling us that in spite of the trimmings and the attitude that Nick is due for a fall and subsequent bankruptcy.

And thanks, Rich, for your continued faith in the Oilers. It's home ice for the next two games.

GO OILERS GO !!

Brian

Brian - keep the faith. Go Oilers !

Rich - I found that interesting too about the Siberian berry ruining the Russian sable fur. Guess that's when fur collars and cuffs were invented

Emma

Yes, that portrait was very interesting. And wasn't the sable beautiful! R. has given immortality to a businessman who would have faded into obscurity. Like all the portraits in this section, I feel I knew the man!

Go Oilers! You have such a rich hockey history.

Unlike the Washington Capitals. They made it to the Stanley cup only once. It was a problem for non-hockey-fan-me. I then commuted from work through the subway station that led to the stadium, just at the time when the rabid hockey fans were arriving for the game. The fans are just as dangerous as the players -- I was almost run over several times by big hulking hordes of fans. I have to admit, I was relieved when the series was short.

I'm getting a midsummer dose of curling. My niece finally sent me DVD's she had made from the World championships. The commentators were MUCH better than the ones at the Olympics for a novice fan like me. They explained the strategy as it went along -- I learned a lot. (Never mind that every team I rooted for lost). I went crazy in the Olympics because the commentator would say "They ought to do X and not explain why.

Brian - great game! Let's go Oilers !

It was indeed, a great game. Did you actually watch part of it?
My daughter and family were at the game and said it was awesome.
As our local paper said this morning - - - "Back in the game".

Brian

I was not as impressed with the painting of Marten Looten, but was blown away by the "Portrait of an 83 year old woman". R. has the light perfectly bringing out the rheumy eyes and the faint shadow on the left lower lip. At the same time, this light seems to raise her out of the background, and outline her silhouette. He seems to have predicted some of the tricks of modern portrait photography.

Brian

Brian - I actually watched a lot of the game.
I thought Rembrandt's painting of the old woman was extremely well done. The black and white photo in the book shows the light and shadow really well.

Emma

Yes you've got us all watching it and were they actually playing CAROLlNA the other night? Go Oilers dried aborning on my lips, phooey.

Yes Emmabarb I did see the PBS link to SN, our Books & Culture areas have worked very hard on those PBS Programs and we're very proud of that accomplishment, thank you for mentioning it!

(And yes anybody is welcome at the SN National Conference and we expect and hope to have a good many of our Books folks and our Classics Folks represented, please do come if you are able, all of you!) I think Joan K is planning to be there already, I am excited to finally meet her, too!

Be right back, am on a new walking regimen.

I'm starting to get it. That is, why so many words in the book were devoted to the religious influence on Flemish painters. Rembrandt was brought up with, and practiced his art in a Calvinist/Mennonite environment. We are used to looking at works created by the Italian Catholics and even a Catholic Rubens.

Rembrandt painted in an environment where frills and grandiose costumes were frowned upon, so (with paintings of people) he had to devote his skills to subtly, but effectively portraying the inner person without the distraction of colorful vestments and arcs of adoring cherubs.

I, also, like his Portrait of the Eighty-three-Year Old Woman. Schama captures the mood of the portrait nicely in two words by describing her expression as "unfocused melancholy."

Rich

Great word Ginny !! I rather guessed the meaning, but had to look it up in Miriam Webster
to confirm it. The headline in our local paper reads "Hurricane downgraded to a tropical storm"
in relation to tonight's game.

If the Oilers win, we return to Raleigh with the series tied, and it becomes a "best of three".
A loss would mean that we would have to win the last three to take the Stanley Cup.
That's improbable - - - and you can read that any way you want to !!

GO OILERS GO !!

Brian

Have finally caught up to you all and I agree with Brian and Joan K that the old woman portrait is astonishing. And good point, EmmaBarb on the black and white, did you notice how the…is it an apron is so dark it seems to float out of the costume?

JoanK, I agree with you on the Olympics commentators, and I have never seen anything like Curling fans, I am not sure how they live thru a match, such SCREAMING!!!

I loved this R. has given immortality to a businessman who would have faded into obscurity. Like all the portraits in this section, I feel I knew the man!

Yes!!

I loved this from Schama:

…the brilliant evocation if the translucent fine lawn fabric of the bonnet's "wings," their edges painted with a simple bravura stroke, or the detail of the woman's right eye……In one incredible complicated passage, a flashy fold of the eyebrow overhangs the upper eyelid, which itself drops slightly to reveal the root ends of the eyelashes, All of which is described by an astonishing thicket of jabbing strokes, some fine, some coarse.

That's incredible writing and it's an incredible subject. As you stand in the Rijksmuseum and look on The Jewish Bride, the closer you get the more you can see just GLOBS, there is no other word for it on the sleeve yet as you back off again, it makes the impression of exactly what was wanted: it's somewhat of a miracle, I am beginning to see WHY Rembrandt is considered to be such a genius, and here we have jabs.

That 83 year old woman's face is remarkable. I think it's the EYES which make it remarkable. In addition to those translucent wings I have never seen anything like that. We must all go to London, do you suspect we could get within 100 feet of it?

And in the painting of Nicholas Ruts, again Schama says what the fur was used for but then says, "And yet….Rembrandt has managed to avoid the lest impression of vanity or idle opulence."

Yeah, with the EYES again.

Has it been stated and I missed it what the title actually means of this book?

This is another good point , Rich: subtly, but effectively portraying the inner person without the distraction of colorful vestments and arcs of adoring cherubs.

Good point!

Young Brian, hmpf! on the Oilers.

AT any rate I'm up to 340, and tomorrow's the 13th, should we now try for 350? Let's leap ahead!! We've got some serious anatomical studies and issues coming up!

Brian - It was a very exciting game but boo hoo, I thought the Oilers would at least even up the score and go into overtime

(p.338)..."Rembrandt's painstaking face mapping was done.......in a spirit of physiognomic pedantry". Say what ? http://www.wordreference.com/ Found no entry in the English language. Guess: As in human face...a kisser, mug, smiler ? Pedantry. Obviously not anything to do with foot science Everything that bored you to death in the book.

Ginny ~ a lot of things in Rembrandt's paintings seem to float out of the painting even though they're dark. I would say this was due a lot to his underpainting where that part was lighter.
Most of those jabs are pure pigment meant to highlight the area....usually very light, white or bright colour. Overtime because there is no medium in the paint these areas tend to flake off unfortunately and the painting sometimes appears unfinished.

I haven't come to any reasoning yet for the title of the book.

Emma

Ok what's "underpainting?" Inquiring minds innocent of art technique want to know.

If this were a mystery, I would say the hints being laid are pointing to the EYES in Rembrandt's portraits are being sort of pointed at, at this point, as his specialty in making HIS paintings different. (In addition to all of his other mastery) and I am beginning to think Schama is right (IF this is his point). This point is underlaid with so many layers (like a painting?) it's hard to figure out WHAT at this point it is.

Here is an interesting post from one of the Greek class areas by Caralee. Since you all can't see this area I thought you might enjoy it, it's fascinating, I think!

Apelles

Hi Everyone I thought I'd post this here as Ginny is doing a wonderful job keeping, all of us who were unable to attend the conference, posted on all that is transpiring. Thank you Ginny. We really appreciate it!!. I found this article on Apelles. It's a shame his work has vanished. He sounds like quite a character. I'll bet his work was fabulous.. Caralee

Apelles - the greatest painter of antiquity Apelles from Coos (c 352 - 308 BC) was famous Hellenistic Greek painter whose artwork was held in such elevated admiration by Pliny the Elder and other ancient authors, that he continues to be regarded, even though none of his work survives, as the greatest painter of antiquity. He was appointed as court painter of Philip II and his son Alexander III of Macedon. His works have inspired Italian Renaissance artists to emulate them; and Boticelli believed that he was reincarnation of Apelles, in the same measure as the Renaissance was revival of ancient world values.

He was Ionian Greek, from island Cos. He became a scholar at the celebrated Dorian school of Sicyon in southern Greece , where he worked under the painter Pamphilus. His works are said to have combined Dorian precision with Ionic elegance.

It was Apelles of Cos who surpassed all the painters that preceded and all who were to come after him; he dates in the 112th Olympiad. He singly contributed almost more to painting than all the other artists put together, also publishing volumes containing the principles of painting. His art was unrivalled for graceful charm, although other very great painters were his contemporaries. Although he admired their works and gave high praise to all of them, he used to say that they lacked the glamour that his work possessed, the quality denoted by the Greek word charis, and that although they had every other merit, in that alone no one was his rival. He also asserted another claim to distinctiontion when he expressed his admiration for the immensely laborious and infinitely meticulous work of Protogenes; for he said that in all respects hi achievements and those of Protogenes were on level, or those of Protogenes were superior, but that in one respect he stood higher, that he knew when to take his hand away from a picture a noteworthy warning of the frequently evil effects of excessive diligence. The candour of Apelles was however equal to his artistic skill he used to acknowledge his inferiority to Melanthius in grouping, and to Asclepiodorus in nicety of measurement, that is in the proper space to be left between one object and another Protogenes and Apelles.

A clever incident took place between Protogenes and Apelles. Protogenes lived at Rhodes and Apelles made the voyage there from a desire to make himself acquainted with Protogenes’s works as that artist was hitherto only known to him by reputation. He went at once to his studio. The artist was not there but there was a panel of considerable size on the easel prepared for painting, which was in the charge of a single old woman. In answer to his enquiry, she told him that Protogenes was no at home, and asked who it was she should report a having wished to see him. “Say it was this person”, said Apelles, and taking up a brush he painted incolour across the panel an extremely fine line and when Protogenes returned the old woman showed him what had taken place.

The story goes that the artist, after looking closely at the finish of this, said that the new arrival was Apelles, as s perfect a piece of work tallied with nobody else and he himself, using another colour, drew a still finer line exactly on the top of the first one, am leaving the room told the attendant to show it to the visitor if he returned and add that this was the person he was in search of; and so it happened; for Apelles came back, and, ashamed to be beaten, cut, i.e. drew a yet finer line on the top of the other two lines with another in a third color, leaving no room for any further display of minute work. Hereupon Protogenes admitted he was defeated, and flew down to the harbor to look for the visitor; and he decided that the panel should be handed on to posterity as it was, to be admired as a marvel by everybody, but particularly by artists. I am informed that it was burnt in the first fire which occurred in Caesar’s palace on the Palatine; it had A.D. 4. been previously much admired by us, on its vast surface containing nothing else than the almost invisible lines, so that among the outstanding works of many artists it looked like a blank space, and by that very fact attracted attention and was more esteemed than any masterpiece.

For 20 years he enjoyed a reputation second only to that of Apelles. The picture painted during the siege of Rhodes consisted of a satyr leaning idly against a pillar on which was a figure of a partridge, so life-like that ordinary spectators saw nothing but it. Enraged on this account, the painter wiped out the partridge. The Satyr must have been one of his last works. He would then be about seventy years of age, and had enjoyed for about twenty years a reputatio-n next only to that of Apelles, his friend and benefactor. His best-known work was the Ialysus, which was removed by Vespasian to Rome, where it perished in the burning of the Temple of Peace.

The shoemaker Another habit of his was when he had finished his works to place them in a gallery in the view of passers by, and he himself stood out of sight behind the picture and listened to hear what faults were noticed, rating the public as a more observant critic than himself. And it is said that he was found fault with by a shoemaker because in drawing a subject’s sandals he had represented the loops in them as one too few, and the next day the same critic was so proud of the artist’s correcting the fault indicated by his previous objection that he found fault with the leg, but Apelles indignantly looked out from behind the picture and rebuked him, saying that a shoemaker in his criticism must not go beyond the sandal - a remark that has also passed into a proverb: Ne sutor ultra [crepidam]

I thought that was fascinating!

What would you have given to see that panel?. According to Caralee's story it was destroyed in 4 AD in a fire in Caesar's palace. Too bad. Sort of like the tragedy of the burning of the ancient documents in the fire that destroyed the Great Library of Alexandria.

Rich

This from a posting in the"Origin of Species" discussion : -<br. http://arts.guardian.co.uk/features/story/0,,1791174,00.html

Well, the Oilers blew it again last night, and will travel to the deep hole they have dug for themselves
to Raleigh on Wednesday. My grandson and his dad will be flying out to cheer them on. Who says
that we don't have faithful fans in Edmonton?

Brian

Ginny ~ oh I thought we already discussed underpainting...sorry about that. In oils particularly the canvas is prepared by painting a medium over it and then going at it with a color such as burnt umber (some good effects for seascapes are achieved by using gray tones)...then it's painted (or drawn with the paint and medium used.....Rembrandt had his own mediums he mixed with the paint to make it easier to apply. This drawing is very important is getting the darks/shadow and lights which are glazed over in working up the painting. Lastly is the pure pigment to highlight things you want to come forward to the viewer. Or something like that

Sadly this technique is not being practiced much anymore except in places like The Maryland Art Institute and by graduates of that school who have gone on to having their own teaching school.

Click here Underpainting by Johannes Vermeer and an unfinished canvas by Rembrandt.

Oh Ginny that is interesting about Apelles, thank you. I've read the story before about the fine line competition.

Imagine what it would have been like if all that art had not been destroyed in those days.

Brian - thanks for that link....could very well be Rembrandt's distant ancestor's eye. That's unbelievable !
I have a question (about ice hockey) is it really legal to catch the puck in midair and then throw it to one of your team-mates ?

Emma

EmmaBarb - - - Thanks for that excellent explanation , and the site on Vermeer's efforts in that direction..
And, no, it is not legal to hand pass the puck to a fellow team member, either from the air or on the ice.
But the players are allowed to intercept the puck in the air, and drop it "at their feet" - - - no mean feat
if you'll pardon the pun.

JoanK - - - Curling is a well understood game in Canada, and any announcer who spent time explaining the rules,
or strategy in detail, would not last long. We do not shout and scream during our contests, and unlike hockey,
curling is not a contact sport. It is just great that both these sports are being given such exposure in the States,
and that you can see the excitement that builds in the games.

Ginny - - - The OILERS are in YOUR neck of the woods right now, and I take this opportunity to say
"Hmpf to the Hurricanes !!"

Brian

Ginny ~ I notice you ask if I would be attending the SrNet 20th Anniversary conference....unfortunately I'm unable to travel these days.

Brian - overtime wow what a super ending ! Go Oilers !

Emma

A short-handed goal in overtime !! Who could ask for more? Back to Edmonton for Game 6 on Sat.

Hold onto your hats - - - we're in for quite a ride !!

Thanks for your support, EmmaBarb and others.

Brian

Reading on. I liked Rembrandt's "Young Man at His Desk." His pose gives the feeling that he was hard at work copying from a great book, when he was interrupted by the viewer. His turned head and partially open mouth seem to say to me, "Can I help you?"

Did we read before that Rembrandt had gone bankrupt in 1656? It was new to me, but maybe I wasn't paying attention. We learn on p342 during the discussion of his collection of miscellanea that much of it was sold off in 1656 "as part of Rembrandt's bankruptcy settlement." Bankruptcy settlement?

We're learning almost as much about these masters parenthetically as we are otherwise in this book. Remember the description of how and where Rubens's built his new home, his marriage, his tulip garden, his problems with his engraver and, oh yes, he negotiated a peace treaty ending the war between England and Spain.

Interesting about the anatomy classes in Amsterdam at the time. They were done in a theater-in-the-round format with the students and officials sitting up front while the rear seats were sold to the public. The public brought food and drink for the spectacle. I can imagine them passing around sausages and beer while the cadaver was being dissected.

Burning incense to mask the smell of the body was a nice touch, though.

The author does really give us a sense of what life was like at that time and place.

Rich

Rich - I'd read Rembrandt went bankrupt but not sure if it was this book or some other book. I've seen a couple autopsies that required more than burning incense (while working at a pathology lab). Believe me I don't care to ever witness another one.
We had anatomy classes with live models when I took art classes at the local college.

Emma

BRIAN: I hadn't thought of the point of view of those who already know the game. In the Worlds as broadcast in the US, they would know that many watchers would be newbie fans, like me.

GO, WHOEVER. Now I don't know who to root for. I'll root for good hockey!

Yes, curling fans are certainly more polite than hockey fans. The players, too. Maybe they get out their emotions with that screaming as the sweepers sweep.

The dissection picture is really something! I don't think we really needed a biography of the doctor, although it's interesting that he called himself Doctor Tulip.

I just realized that I have a hockey dilemma going for me. The Carolina Hurricanes are a reincarnation of the old Hartford Whalers team. (They moved from Hartford to NC and changed their name to the Hurricanes.)

My younger son was a Hartford Whaler. Well, actually when he was 11 or 12 years old, he represented the Hartford Whalers and wore their uniform as a "Junior Whaler" when he played in the International Pee Wee Hockey Tournament in Quebec City, Quebec.

So, you can see my predicament; I have a friend who is a rabid Oilers supporter and a son who represented the Hurricane's predecessor in an international tournament.

I think I'll just pull up a seat next to Joan and root for good hockey.

Rich

I'll have the seat between you - - - and Ginny can come and cheer too !!

Brian

hahaah for the Oily Whalers? hahaha That reminds me of Dan Rather, actually, the Junior Whaler bit, in that he used to refer to the Prince and Princess of Whales hahahaa ANYWAY no I can't sit in the middle, I'm off till June 30, going to the American Classical League National Conference in Philadelphia (my home town) at the University of Pennsylvania, June 20-25 so am taking a bit of time off; some of our with Classics Students are also coming, I tend to get all choked up visiting where I grew up (I have no idea why; it's changed so much I can't find my way around) and if they still have the stop lights hanging over the sidewalks instead of the roads I expect to run quite a few lights! hahaha

But HEY!

Now our schedule shows thru the 19th for pages 340-350, so I'll make a general leap (a man's reach should exceed his grasp, right?) till June 30 and pages 383 and we'll (gasp) almost be...well..not through...er...almost be to page 400. Dr. Tulip, I presume? hahaha

What do you think about these anatomical drawings? I'll change the heading, YOU hold the fort and I shall be back when the Oily Whalers have finally met their just desserts!

What do you mean you had live models, EmmaBarb? (I am so sorry you can't come, I'd love to meet you!) Do you mean you did vivisection? hahaha (I know you don't!! I hope you don't!!)

Surgery? Ickers and Ugg. I don't want to see blood of any kind on anybody or anything, squeeelch!

Ginny ~ I lived just this side of Germantown as a little kid (boarding school) and left Germantown Jr. High as a teen to live with my mom who had married again (which is another story). Ever hear of Chelton & Chew ? Ha! Walked there many a time to catch a trolley to the subway, then to the train, to stay with someone or other during holidays.
Our live models were not dead when we got through with them (haha). Strictly for outer anatomy drawing classes.

Loved to watch medical illustrators work (at the pathology lab) where they created color drawings of all parts of the body which was published in a "Medical Pathology Atlas".

With the warmer weather I've been goofing off lately with my reading so should get back to it.

Emma

Wow! Schama is the only one who would not only give us the biography of the doctor in The Anatomy Lesson but the biography (as far as he knows it) of the corpse as well! I love it. The corpse is definitely a person in this painting.

What do you-all think? Are you as intrigued by this painting as Schama is?

Wow Oilers !

I found it interesting how Dr. Tulp or Tulip (which is it) took his name. Is that true about the tulip coming from the East and named tulp and all or did Prof. Schama make it up ?
The Rembrandt painting of the Anatomy Lesson really is beautiful if you can forget there is a public autopsy going on of a criminal.

The Anatomy Lecture....this is huge and you can see the detail a bit more in the background. Why is Dr. Tulp the only one wearing a hat ?

EMMABARB: I wondered that too. I suppose it makes him immediately the focus. And it may be a social status thing? But I sure wouldn't wear a hat to do a dissection.

Schama says that the figure in back may have had a hat that was painted out.

And an interesting account of the history of the painting is here : -

http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/lit-med/lit-med-db/webdocs/webart/van.rijn95-art-.html

Oilers in Seventh Heaven.

Brian

Whenever I see the Dutch group paintings, I'm reminded of the cigar, Dutch Masters and a very sexy Edie Adams {I think} singing to cigar smokers to light her up sometime.

Public dissections with music, food, drink and gossip - don't you love it?! Sort of the horror/shock movies of the 17th century.

Better public dissections than public hangings.

And now, we only have football games.

Sue, I think that was Murial Cigars. The very attractive Edie Adams would say at the end of the commercial, "Why don't you pick one up and smoke it some time" with a breathy, 'Mae West' intonation.

She was married to the brilliant Ernie Kovacs, who always had a cigar in his mouth; sort of a trade-mark.

Rich

Brian -- Empty Net ? Boo hoo

Thanks for that web url on Dr. Tulp. The wording seemed very much like that in Prof. Schama's book.

suec ~ you're right about the Dutch Masters cigars My husband smoked cigars and I couldn't stand the smell of them. I hardly ever see anyone smoking a cigar these days. One of my friends likes those little cigars. I can't stand to be around any smokers (an ex-smoker don't you know).

I'm up to Body Language...that should be interesing.

Emma

Well, Joan got her wish, anyway: Good Hockey!

Brian, there's always the consolation phrase familiar to Cubs and Red Sox fans: "Wait 'till next year!" I personally find little comfort in the expression.

Brian and Emma, one thing is for sure about the recent reading; we will never forget Dr Tulp's name or the title of that famous painting.

I love those little cigars. (The Dutch make the best, but they're expensive, and THERE'S NOWHERE YOU CAN SMOKE THEM!!) Gave up smoking cigarettes in 1963. That's what? 43 years ago? But still, after a great meal in a fine restaurant, someone in the smoking section will light one up, I'd get a whiff, and it would smell soooo good even after all those years.

Rich

We gave it our best, and it WAS an excellent game. The Oilers were beaten by a better team on the night.

I personally never played ice hockey, but I played grass hockey for years, smoked cigars (quit 40 years ago) ,
but have never experimented with marihuana (don't even know how to spell it).

Now have no excuse to keep me away from THE BOOK, and will try to concentrate.

Brian

Guess we'll all concentrate on the book. Exciting chapter coming up and some terrific illustrations.
Pentimento/ pentimenti -- a bit of "underpainting" painted over in final version. (I didn't know that!) I wonder why Rembrandt decided only one person (Dr. Tulp) would wear the hat ? By the way I'm glad Tulp changed his name as I could never pronounce his other name much less remember it.

Rich - you're right, we'll recognize that painting and remember the name after discussing it here and of course the artist who painted it.
I know what you mean about smoking, I quit about 25 yrs ago as it almost killed me.

Brian - I played field hockey when I was in school. Ice hockey sure is exciting....got the adrenaline going

Emma

My computer will be silent for the next couple of days, but I will continue reading Rembrandt. Will be back to the discussion in a couple.

Rich

We'll miss you.

BOOOOO, SCHAMA! Talking about Saskia as if she was a cow! Shame.

The picture of her is in the National galery here. I wish I could get down there!

(p. 356) What is the writing around the portrait of Johannes Cornelise. Sylvius and under it ?

Oops ! The thunder and lightening are getting closer, must unplug.

Hi Ginny : I've resisted coming to this site until today when I gave myself a lazy Sunday afternoon. I've not seen Shama's book but the posts have got me interested so I'll try to get hold of it during the week and I just might join in from time to time if I may.

EmmaBarb - Thanks for the link to the Vermeer Underpainting article. As you say underpainting is not taught so much nowadays when speed seems to be everything. The Xray showing the Girl with Pearl Earring was telling - did you see the film? I'm guessing you have had art training and wonder do you paint for a living If so, lucky lady! I dabble a bit as a hobby but am serious about it (at least during two full days each week - sometimes more) and constantly try to learn more about techniques and colour.

WELCOME, GUMTREE!! we aren't as talkative as Don Quixote, but we read along, slowly, and have been doing so for over a year. We who don't paint learn a lot from those of you who do.

Schama is an expensive book. But all the paintings discussed are on the Web. I've just gotten to the point where Rembrandt met and married his wife, Saskia.

We've had severe thunder and lightening and heavy rains here over the weekend and some power outages. I'm okay where I am but the ground is really saturated and still raining.

gumtree - I paint for my own entertainment and have always given away my paintings to family and close friends. I have had some formal lessons in painting and drawing classes at a college but never thought of wanting to earn a living at it (I'm still learning and love it). Most of my art now is done on the computer. Come join our Computer Generated Art Discussion here in SeniorNet.

Emma

Thunderstorms drove me from the computer before I could find Rembrandt links. They've kept up for two days and are promised for tomorrow. I'm snatching a quiet moment. If the thunder holds off, I'll be back with some links.

SASKIA IN A RED HAT

REMBRANDT AND SASKIA AS PRODIGAL SON AND FALLEN WOMAN

I might have a quiet minute or two right now from the storm.

JohnK ~ don't you just love that painting ! The hat and the richness of the dress and all. Thanks, especially since I don't recall ever seeing that particular painting.
The second painting Rembrandt seems to be celebrating....the birth of his child perhaps.

The wealthy Saskia van Uylenburgh, whom he married in 1634, was the model for many of his paintings and drawings. Three of their four children died in infancy, and in 1642 his wife Saskia died.

Yes, celebrating -- perhaps too much. Schama says this is the prodigal son with a prostitute -- an unusual way for a painter to paint his wife. His detractors used it to show that R was debauched. I prefer to think of him as a young man discovering the joys of married life with more enthusiasm than taste.

I haven't yet found a link to the drawing he did of Saskia when they were engaged.

This may be the drawing (etching) you were looking for JoanK.

http://www.rembrandtpainting.net/rmbrndt_etchings/etchings_b/bj.htm

It is far from debauched and I find it rather lovely.

Brian

I wonder why it is said that Rembrandt painted himself as the prodigal and his wife Saskia as a courtesan in his lap ? How could these art historian know if very little was written down by Rembrandt ?

Brian - I think that etching of Rembrandt and wife Saskia is printed backward....Rembrandt was right handed. Actually he must have etched it looking into a mirror knowing the image on the plate reversed when printed on paper.

Emma

Been away for a few days. The following is what I posted in the "Archaeology" discussion of Senior Net after the short trip. As you can see, what I saw made an impression.

"Just got back to Arizona after a Pima College guided trip to Chaco Canyon. An amazing place to see and experience. Also visited the Salmon site in Farmington NM and the Aztec site, all part of the Chacoan "empire."

It's amazing that in that inhospitable, hot, treeless, desert-dry Chaco Canyon these prehistoric people suddenly developed an interactive new social system, and built dozens of sophisticated multi-storied buildings and roads over hundreds of square miles, most of which were oriented to various solar and lunar events. Just a few generations before, they were disconnected families of nomadic hunter-gatherers, and almost overnight (on the scale of history) they became skilled scientists, engineers, and astronomers with a well organized social structure.

You have to wonder how and why they accomplished this in such a short time in such an unforgiving place. When you get over thinking about that, you start wondering why it collapsed, and what happened to the people and their skills.

Chaco Canyon is something I will never forget."

Now back to Rembrandt.

Rich

RICH: what a wonderful experience. Thank you for sharing it.

BRIAN: sorry I wasn't clearer. No the painting some referred to as debauched was the one I linked in Post 74 above as REMBRANDT AND SASKIA AS THE PRODIGAL SON AND FALLEN WOMAN.

The etching I referred to is not that one (which is endearing, I agree) but an even more endearing one of Saskia(perhaps not an etching -- I'm very ignorant about technique) in silverpoint that R did while they were engaged.

I'm on page 361, and have passed the halfway point in the book. It took 361 pages for the author to bring Rembrandt to the point of being the pre-emminent painter in Amsterdam.

Schama, always the wordsmith, nicely explains Rembrandt's appeal to the burghers. "The Anatomy Lesson of Dr. Tulp had made him sought after: the smartest and sharpest of the city's painters, a known miracle worker, someone who could breathe gusts of fresh air into stale genres without ever threatening their essential decorum."

I suppose Rembrandt was new and different, but not new and different in such a way that would offend the Calvinist sense of propriety.

Now off to read some more.

Rich

Now caught up to Rembrandt's marriage to Saskia. The author calls Saskia Rembrandt's "schatjie." I know the Dutch and German languages are similar, and I seem to remember a similar word for beloved one in German, but I can't spell it well enough to look it up.

His etchings of Saskia are quite good, but his paintings of her don't appeal to me. I must be missing something here.

Rembrandt's painting of Saskia as Floria looks almost Oriental; even to her demurely downcast eyes. If it were not for her Occidental features, it could be a poster for "Madame Butterfly."

In his "Self Portrait with Saskia," Rembrandt looks like Vincent Price.

Reading on.

Rich

OK WHERE'S GINNY? I know she's back.

I agree with you, Rich. The silverpoint drawing is quite charming. But did I catch Schama in a mistake? He says her index finger strokes her cheek. Surely, it's the little finger? The hand is a bit out of drawing, so I had to look twice to be sure.

Here and almost caught up! I'll be back later today, DID you catch Schama in a mistake!?! good for you! Am enjoying all the posts, still not unpacked, but hope to catch up later today, at least to page 383! Good work keeping on keeping on!

(p. 366) I love the one of "Saskia as Flora" by Rembrandt. It might be a good match for the one of him (p. 306) in "Oriental Costume". I think there's another of him that's better but I can't find it. You know how he loved to dress in costume.

JoanK. ~ that's Schama's second error describing Rembrandt's art. (p. 364) That is indeed her pinkie resting on Saskia's cheekbone. Lovely silverpoint etching of her though.

Ginny ~ Nice to see you back and almost caught up.

Emma

I just can't see the Flora in the painting as Saskia. Can you?

No fair looking back.

At the Mark Twain House in Hartford Ct, there was (and still is) a certain small painting of someone or something on the mantel in his study.

Twain liked to make up stories to tell his girls. No matter what story he told his girls, he would include the character from the painting somewhere in the story. We talked about this before in the Rembrandt discussion, in fact Brian came up with a reasonable facsimile of the painting and posted it.

Well, today going through some old boxes, I found my copy of the painting, and I'm looking at it now.

For a fabulous prize (not really), and without looking back in the discussion, what was the painting on Twain's mantel?

Rich

It's not a Rembrandt. In fact the artist is not known.

Rich

Saskia as Flora: Rembrandt painted his wife as the goddess three times. I guess he saw her that way. Botticelli's Primavera includes an image of Flora.

I'm thinking
Off now to watch Pt 2 of "How Art Made the World" on PBS.

It's not a person, it's an animal.

Rich

It's "The Cat in the Ruff."

http://www.sfspca.org/volunteers/vol_images/creaturecomforts/aug02/catpic_lg.jpg

I'll call Daimler/Chrysler in the morning and tell them we won't be needing the prize.

Rich

Rich - was that you "the volunteer" ?

DUH! As soon as you said it I remembered. How short is fame.

My telephone line's being out for a couple of days recently was lucky as it allowed me to catch up with this discussion and move forward!

Sic transit gloria mundi, huh Joan? hahahaa

I have a lot for you today but I think Joan K is right and that's a mistake on the part of Professor Schama unless she has two index fingers!!

I am noticing a pattern in Professor Schama's writing. He'll give one topic sentence in a paragraph and then he'll seque off into the unknown, I wish he had blockquoted that additional information in italics or something so we could hone in on the gist if we did want to or footnoted it or something. I think the book would have been 1/10th of its size and the information still there in the footnotes, but that's just me. As it IS I've learned (finally ) how to read him!

I've got another Flora for you too and lots of questions but NOW I notice that we have ARRIVED (finally!!!!) at one of the better chapters in the book, the one about the nut case who tried to destroy the Danae! So let's extend today our reading to page 393 from 383 and enjoy this oasis of interesting writing.

GUM!!!! Welcome, welcome! It may sound like heresy but if you can get the book from the library, start with 383 so you can at least discuss what we are (or 363) and jump right on in.

Here is another Flora

to contrast with Saskia's Flora (page 367). This one is from Stabiae, from a villa destroyed at the eruption of Vesuvius. I can't help but notice a certain similarity in her robes and even in the reach for a flowering branch, or is it me?

I could not help but notice yesterday what seems to me to be a sort of twinkle or….I don't know what you'd call it, in Saskia's eye, she seems quite the …er… happy lass. (Who does the self portrait of Rembrandt on page 362 remind you of? Modern movie star?) hahaha

I also found most striking the self portrait of Joachim Wtewael, he's as handsome as any movie star today but his wife is…jeepers. If he were capable of making himself look that good, you'd think he'd have done something for HER? Do you suppose she was pug ugly and he actually made her look GOOD?

Did you love Saskia Asleep in Bed? (page 370). Holy smoke, she really dressed the part, I won't say it!

I was quite struck, I think in all of these paintings by the one on page 378 the most, The Shipbuilder and his Wife. I love that one, but can you IMAGINE posing for it? That woman must have had no end of cricks and aches and pains, love that one. (Don't you think her hand with that message is gigantic, tho?)

Oh let's move forward to "the good part:" Violations, page 383-393 and let's talk about what happened there. I believe that this is one of the most interesting chapters in the book so far. "The picture must not become a monument to barbarism." What is YOUR take on restoration, such as The Last Supper and Michelangelo's Sistine Chapel? Are you for or against?

How many works of art HAVE had to be repaired from vandalism or restored? The Pieta, wasn't it attacked by some nut?

And wasn't it interesting that water was used in 1990 to quickly repair yet another attack? This is a fascinating chapter and then it goes into NUDES and the idea of such and DANAE, this is quite interesting, let's seque forth, are you all up to this place now? There seems to be some controversy near 393 over whether or not those depicted nudes are attractive and what makes the difference in nude and naked, I am not sure that Schama is correct but I would bet you a dollar those nudes are Saskia and to me they are definitely as unattractive as you get.

Thank you for carrying on so splendidly!!!

Let's talk!

I think Prof Schama is enjoying describing these "nudes" just a little bit too much.

I'm all for restoration of famous paintings but plleeease make sure they know what they're doing. This is an art in itself.

Are we going to have cake and ice-cream next Saturday (July 15th) to celebrate "Rembrandt 400 Years" ?

Yes! And maybe we'll be on page 400 by then? Where is everybody ? hahaha I got up thinking is it something I said?

Or didn't say?

Are we all on the same page? hahaaa

I agree EmmaBarb on the nudes, I am not sure how some people could find them gorgeous tho? That's a somewhat strange episode here in the book.

I saw the Last Supper as it was almost through restoration and have seen the Sistine Chapel, too. Last night I caught a tad of the Antiques Roadshow and this lady had a painting unsigned that she had had to remove the frame from to get in the car and of course it was worth something like $250,000, but the expert said, this needs to be cleaned up and when it is, the sky will be bright blue and the sails white.

At the moment it was sort of a blurred muted grey for the sky and cream for the sails, and it was attractive till she said (and very powerful) it would be bright blue and white, and I thought, I would like to see it the way the painter did it!! I'm for resoration, some of these old things are so old and brown and dingy and dirty you can't see what the painter did intend!

If I understand it correctly Rembrandt was influenced at a young age by Rubens' nudes (though the two of them never got to meet) however Rembrandt painted his nudes much as he saw them. Mostly the model was his wife. I'm told that in those days men married heavier robust women so they could last through the harsh cold winters to take care of him and their children.

Ginny ~ oh how I would have loved seeing the Last Supper as you did and the Sistine Chapel.

If you discovered you had a painting worth $250,000, would you sell it ?

These two guys (I forget who and what the painting was) cleaned a painting using their "spit". Unbelievable ! I think I read about it in a Smithsonian magazine some time ago.

Interesting article on the close association Rembrandt had with his art dealer Hendrick Uylenburgh... click here please

" Rembrandt painted his nudes much as he saw them "

I agree. Especially the drawings.

I agree, Joan and EmmaBarb, that's how he saw them, did you all wonder at the difference in opinion about their beauty from the critics?

I am still struggling with the concept of "nude" and "naked," based on the subject's own posture that Schama talks about in this section, he almost seems to disprove his own theory. I am interested in what you think about it!

Do you all think it's possible to push to page 400 by Saturday, Rembrandt's 400th Anniversary (I once thought it would not be possible to push to page 4 much less 400, I'll drop you all a line and see where we are).

Spit? EEuuuuuu, gross. You'd think that would eat off the pigments and cause no end of harm.

I am so intrigued by this reading I think I am going to take a watercolor class this fall. I can't draw or paint, so I will be his most pathetic subject, but for some reason I'd like to try. I know it's hard.

I was once asked to model for an art class at a college. Feet as I recall it was or hands. Boy howdy I'd be a good foot model now (I did not do it, could not bear to think of eyes staring so intently) for bunions and hammertoes and What Happens When You Wore Too Many Pointed Toed Shoes.

You know something is bad wrong with you when you sit and watch the 6" stiletto heels going up to the temple of Poseidon, at Sounion in Greece and you want to jump up like the Ancient Mariner and scream: "You're ruining your FEET!!" hahahaa

Emma, If you discovered you had a painting worth $250,000, would you sell it ? No, if it were worth that much it needs to be in a museum with a little plaque on it hahaaha and it was worth more? They said if she'd have it professionally restored then it would be worth half a million. I would not do anything with it till I was on my last legs tho, if you enjoy it before you know what it's worth then you'd enjoy it after. But if I were on my last legs (which I may be and don't know it) I'd donate it/ sell it to a museum so others could enjoy it.

Think of the joy some of the art you've seen in museums gives everybody. That Antiqutes Road Show is very intriguing, to me, for what it says about human nature, I love it. If you love something why do you care what it's worth to others?

Artist's models are nudes, not naked. There is an artistic difference as far as I'm concerned.

Ginny ~ I'm already past page 400 so no problem.
I agree about those guys that cleaned a painting with their own spit....definitely gross.
Wow! that's great you're so inspired to take a watercolor class. You will probably be surprised by what you can do with a good teacher. Watercolor is one of the hardest medium for me as it's so permanent once you put it down.
A doctor once stopped me on the stairs where I worked and told me I was ruining not only my feet by my heart by wearing those high stiletto heels. Oh the years I endured wearing those shoes ....now I'm paying dearly.

I couldn't sell a painting worth $250,000 that I enjoyed looking at (there are so many artists I do enjoy). Now if it was a later Picasso I'd be happy to sell it.

Emma

EmmaBarb, what IS the difference in a nude and naked? Inquiring minds want to know!

Yes I ruined my own feet and am paying for it now, too, what WERE we thinking of?

Today is the 12th and we're supposed to move on here, yet there is somewhat of an ominous silence, I am not sure if we're moving too fast or too slow??

What's your pleasure here? Shall we try, Emma is ready for page 400 on Saturday the 400th Anniversary of Rembrant, or not?

I don’t know what the artistic parameters are, but etimologically speaking : -

nude comes from the Latin (nudus = naked)
naked comes from Old English (nacod = naked)
and incidentally, bare comes from Old English (bær = naked)

Ginny - - - I hope you are not more confused now (like I am !!)

Brian

Ginny ~ I've read page 400 and a bit more since I found those next several pages interesting. It's when I'm not interested (like all the history stuff) that I am too slow.

Hmmmmm...difference of a nude and naked. I don't know....I guess it's how you look at it. We advertised for "nude models" for art class....maybe it just sounds better Paintings of nude models. The trees are naked in the fall. The room was bare.

This is not the greatest but I thought I'd post it anyway.
A little something I made on the computer
It takes a few seconds to fully load.

EMMABARB: thanks for the logo. It is great. Happy 400th anniversary (Is it R's birthday, I've forgotten?)

I've read to page 400 and the end of the chapter. With nude and naked, Schama seems to be trying to draw a distiction between two connotations: naked (as in oh, horrors, she/he's naked. Shocked disbelief or heh, heh, heh, depending) and nudes as artistic celebrations of the human body. See how tricky it gets! The Susannah paintings, officially condemning voyeurism, while actually giving it a vent.

I'm reminded of a study of women's magazines like "True Story" and "True confessions". The stories deplored and punished any sexual activity by women (in the 1930's, any woman who had sex outside of marraige inevitably was struck by lightning or fell off a cliff at the end of the story) but before that, the story got in a lot of very steamy writing.

YAY! I got blown off again yesterday in these pop up thunderstorms but DID want to say Happy Belated 400th Rembrandt, and I'll put that in the heading, too here!

YAY so Emma (may I call you Emma or would you prefer the Barb too?) Brian and Suec and Rich, where is Rich, let's go forward then, I'll put up a new schedule in the heading today.

So we're making a distinction in the depictions of human flesh based on what quailty or characteristic of the painting itself ? Naked, nude?

Can you imagine posing for some of those things?

I'm so glad we've reached page 400 here on his 400th! How timely is THAT!!

I'm back. Been traveling and not reading (blush). Renewed my library book on line, and will get up to speed this afternoon and tomorrow.

Rich

I'm still here. Really nice logo EmmaBarb,thanks. I'm afraid I fell behind, but I'm working on catching up.

in this book that should have been titled " The Life of Peter Paul Rubens, with occasional references to a Rembrandt van Rijn."

I have to say that the Rubens self portrait on p403 did surprise me. It's not at all how I expected him to look. He wasn't Rubenesque! Small, thin face, sharp features, pointy nose, pointy beard, beady eyes. No wonder he appears in few of his paintings; he was the wrong "type" for a Rubens.

Rembrandt, on the other hand, puts himself in his paintings whenever possible. His inclusion of himself on the boat in "Christ in the Storm on the Sea of Galilee" appears almost comical; like a "where's Waldo" or even a "Kilroy was Here" character. Everyone on the storm tossed boat appears to be focused on the storm or the savior except the little "Rembrandt" character who is looking right at us. It's like he's saying to us, "Pretty good painting, huh?"

Rich

Ginny ~ Yes please it's Emma (actually Barb is a nickname for my middle name). Was surprised a bit to see my image in the heading

thankx.

suec and others ~ appreciate your nice comments.

Rich - I agree with you about the title LOL.

I love Rembrandt's painting of the storm tossed boat...it's probably my very favorite. I wish the thieves who took it would get caught and give it back unharmed.

Emma

(p. 406) "Abduction of Proserpine", Prof. Schama is calling Pluto's chariot a car.

hahaha Fits and Starts, we're like Chutes and Ladders in here which is OK with me, I apologize for leaping ahead and slowly bringing up the rear again and now it's time to jerk forward again, and I've put the new pages up 413 because I could not stop reading but this is SOME chapter here. Schama lets loose, I loved Rich's " The Life of Peter Paul Rubens, with occasional references to a Rembrandt van Rijn." Hahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

So true so true here we go with Rubens who looks most UnRubens like I agree!!

I believe you must be setting a record for library renewal? Hahhaa

Suec, I had fallen behind too but am now caught up to page 413, and what a series of controversial paintings here, the mind boggles.

Rich, which one is Rembrandt on the boat? I love that thing but to me (as it appears in all of his paintings), I find myself looking at the wrong thing. I am not sure if it's because of the reproductions and the original might be better or what? I thought Christ was the white haired figure to the left before I saw him on the right, which one is Rembrandt? I love that thing, but can hardly see it.

I had the same feeling about the dog defecating (boy I wish I could find the Kenneth Clark book) in the Good Samaritan painting. I never saw the dog. I had to look again, I was so relieved to get off the Ganymede, the mannekin pis, and the somewhat strange leap Schama was trying to make (or explain) between him and Christianity for heaven's sake, that I was glad to get to the beautiful rotund horse and looked up and left not down.

What can Rembrandt have meant to symbolize with that dog?

Emma, great, I keep WANTING to call you Emma, good!

Ok now on Christ in the boat and Proserpina's Abduction, do those figures seem the same? I can't see them that well. They both have beards, I am not sure.

Emma, you did that Rembrandt 400 yourself??!!?? wow.

Some things that struck me in this strange long section, what struck you or what do you think about these?

Emma, I don't have car on my page 406, I have "chariot," where are you seeing car?

I was not sure about the "Whale hunting in Galilee?" bit on page 406, could those spikes or harpoons not be used for anything else or is he saying here Rembrandt goofed?

What about this one? "We are all nudes before the act; and we are all naked afterwards." (page 401). What act? Is he talking about what I think he is and if so what does he mean?

I am not sure here on his….reasoning.

A huge big thing on Rubens' "elaborate scheme of triumphal arches and stages, all with monumental paintings at their center, that would greet the new governor's progress." (page 402). I am confused over this. Is he saying that as the new governor progressed in the parade described, or the Progress, these huge canvasses would be hung along the route? Are any of them left? Why does he not include one?

The Abduction of Proserpine is interesting. At the U of Penna I just heard a very interesting lecture on Ianna and Proserpine with some very strange illustrations by a professor of Classics from CA State. Ianna apparently preceded even Proserpina , it was quite interesting, a very old myth. I like that Proserpine painting, by Rembrandt, it reminds me of some later treatments of the Lady of Shalott for some reason, that sort of smeared white line to the right.

The detail on the St. John the Baptist reproduced on page 409 is just stunning. The mother quieting the baby and the other activities, I would like to know what each symbolizes, Schama does not say but rather goes into yet another explanation (haven't we had this before?) of the Sacrifice of Isaac.

In the Susanna and the Elders bit (pages 396ff), I could not quite grasp what Schama is saying, is he saying that people WANTED to be portrayed as lascivious old goats? I only see one face on the right, can you see the other? What's he SAYING there? Is he saying WE are the old goats?

Hmpf.

Hahahaa

I'll stifle my thoughts on Schama's remarks on Joseph and Potiphar's Wife.

But what are YOUR thoughts on anything up to 413??

Whew! That's a lot of material to comment on, Ginny.

I think the Rembrandt self depiction in the "Christ in the Storm on the Sea of Galilee" is the little person in the blue shirt casually holding the guy wire while everyone else on the boat is either in a state of panic over the storm or experiencing a religious moment. The little man in the blue shirt is ignoring both, and looking at us. If he could talk, he'd be saying, "Pretty nice painting, huh?"

EmmaB, very nice job on the "Rembrandt 400th" banner in our header. I envy your creative skill.

Rich

Hi everyone!

Ginny ~ the Rembrandt 400 is my own. Was experimenting to see if I could do some fireworks...I need more play time with Animation Shop.

My paperback book definitely has "beneath the car". Maybe someone caught it before another printing.

I think Prof Schama is talking about the act as in Adam and Eve eating the forbidden fruit.

I missed that about the huge canvasses lining the new governor's parade route.

Schama has repeated himself again with the Sacrifice of Isaac. Maybe this was again a publisher's doing to make the book longer

When I look at the painting of "Christ in the Storm on the Sea of Galilee" my focus is on the boat and the sea and the movement of the storm....I look at this painting from across the room and get tears in my eyes that some thief has it locked up who knows where and it may have even been ruined.
Emma

Rich With the Eyes of an Eagle! By gum, you're right. How on earth did you see that? We must have different books (Emma, keep that book someday it may be worth a fortune!) typos. What year edition is it? I have 1999.

But yes, there he is, standing in the middle looking out.

Emma that's a fabulous graphic!!! I had no idea!

Good point, too. When I look at that painting I see the white waves, to the left and the focus seems to be on the white haired figure. I am not sure why Christ seems to be in the dark there. Is this because it's calm there or? I thought Rembrandt is famous for his use of light and dark? Maybe we can find a better rendition so we can SEE it, maybe it's just dirty?

I AM noticing (where is Brian??) that Christ and his followers all seem to have their own little light around them, did you see that? I need a better rendition of it.

But just in looking ahead, now, Belshazzar's Feast on page 417 seems quite colorful and the dark is offset by the colors. I am not sure I understand the use of color in the Sea of Galilee.

On the Pageant paintings, I'm thinking that since he made quite a point of describing the subject matter which would meet the governor it might be nice to see one. Of course he may feel they would be out of place, this being a book on Rembrandt haahahaa..

Funny, Emma, on the length, by gum tho we're more than half way thru!

How can you SEE this painting from across the room? From three feet all I see is the white.

I think Prof Schama is talking about the act as in Adam and Eve eating the forbidden fruit

Ok but then why does Schama say "we?" We are all nude before the "act," and naked afterwards?

The act of succumbing to temptation?

Fascinating bit in Milton's Paradise Lost about WHO actually was at fault there, Adam dumped it all on Eve: "The woman did tempt me and I did eat."

My book, the big, HEAVY, library edition has it as "The brutally fanged bronze lion decorating Pluto's chariot..."

EmmaB, maybe you do have a rare edition, like that postage stamp that was printed upside down and is now worth a bazillion dollars.

Has anyone else been to the Isabella Stewart Gardener Museum? In my collage years in Boston, the Museum was a great place for a Sunday afternoon date. The museum was once Ms. Gardener's Boston home (mansion), and it's filled with her very eclectic collection. On Sunday afternoons a string quartet (often from the Boston Conservatory of Music) would be playing in the central courtyard as you walked about and enjoyed the art.

Rich

Genesis iii: 1-24. Adam said : "The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat."
What else could he do? And the woman said, "The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat."

Well, it was "the cool of the day" so perhaps they needed the fig leaves for warmth, and not only to cover up their newly found nudity or nakedness.

Did we get the word EVIL from EVE? hahahahaha.

Now I really must get back to the book and quit shirking.

Brian

You're right, Brian, the wording is a little different in Milton's Paradise Lost than that in Genesis, as Adam blames Eve:

" Shee gave me of the Tree, and I did eate."

This Woman whom thou mad'st to be my help,
And gav'st me as thy perfet gift, so good,
So fit, so acceptable, so Divine,
That from her hand I could suspect no ill, [ 140 ]
And what she did, whatever in it self,
Her doing seem'd to justifie the deed;
Shee gave me of the Tree, and I did eate.

(http://www.dartmouth.edu/~milton/reading_room/pl/book_10/index.shtml )

Oh Adam, tsk tsk tsk, is this why in Adam's fall we sinned all? What else could he DO? He could have stood up like a MAN, to her and to the consequences!

Sparknotes (http://www.sparknotes.com/poetry/paradiselost/section11.rhtml) advises that:

Most of our preconceived ideas about Adam and Eve and the Garden of Eden come from John Milton's epic poem "Paradise Lost," published in 1667. He took the Genesis account and greatly expanded it using his creative flair. Milton used his imagination to create "behind the scenes" conversations with God, Satan, and various angels. His additions to the Genesis account have become imbedded in our culture and have caused many people to mistakenly think Milton's account is found in the Bible.

The complete biblical account of Adam and Eve can be found in Genesis 1:26 to Genesis 5:5 .

Did you know that Milton is the one who talked about the apple in this scene?

Here's the longer passage of his reasoning from Book X:

http://www.dartmouth.edu/~milton/reading_room/pl/book_10/index.shtml

Whence Adam faultring long, thus answer'd brief. [ 115 ]
I heard thee in the Garden, and of thy voice
Affraid, being naked, hid my self. To whom
The gracious Judge without revile repli'd.
My voice thou oft hast heard, and hast not fear'd,
But still rejoyc't, how is it now become [ 120 ]
So dreadful to thee? that thou art naked, who
Hath told thee? hast thou eaten of the Tree
Whereof I gave thee charge thou shouldst not eat?
To whom thus Adam sore beset repli'd.
O Heav'n! in evil strait this day I stand [ 125 ]
Before my Judge, either to undergoe
My self the total Crime, or to accuse
My other self, the partner of my life;
Whose failing, while her Faith to me remaines,
I should conceal, and not expose to blame [ 130 ]
By my complaint; but strict necessitie
Subdues me, and calamitous constraint
Least on my head both sin and punishment,
However insupportable, be all
Devolv'd; though should I hold my peace, yet thou [ 135 ]
This Woman whom thou mad'st to be my help,
And gav'st me as thy perfet gift, so good,
So fit, so acceptable, so Divine,
That from her hand I could suspect no ill, [ 140 ]
And what she did, whatever in it self,
Her doing seem'd to justifie the deed;
Shee gave me of the Tree, and I did eate.

Now prior to this this was not his song at all, to Eve he said something quite different:

http://www.englishschoolsfoundation.edu.hk/webpages/TeachLearn/EnglishS/Texts/PLstX.html

Book IX

886 Thus Eve with count'nance blithe her story told;
887 But in her cheek distemper flushing glow'd.
888 On th' other side, Adam, soon as he heard
889 The fatal trespass done by Eve, amaz'd,
890 Astonied stood and blank, while horror chill
891 Ran through his veins and all his joints relax'd.
892 From his slack hand the garland wreath'd for Eve
893 Down dropp'd, and all the faded roses shed.
894 Speechless he stood and pale, till thus at length
895 First to himself he inward silence broke:

896 "O fairest of creation, last and best
897 Of all God's works, creature in whom excell'd
898 Whatever can to sight or thought be form'd
899 Holy, divine, good, amiable, or sweet!
900 How art thou lost! how on a sudden lost,
901 Defac'd, deflow'r'd, and now to death devote!
902 Rather, how hast thou yielded to transgress
903 The strict forbiddance, how to violate
904 The sacred fruit forbidd'n? Some cursed fraud
905 Of enemy hath beguil'd thee, yet unknown.
906 And me with thee hath ruin'd; for with thee
907 Certain my resolution is to die.
908 How can I live without thee? how forgo
909 Thy sweet converse, and love so dearly join'd,
910 To live again in these wild woods forlorn?
911 Should God create another Eve, and I
912 Another rib afford, yet loss of thee
913 Would never from my heart. No, no! I feel
914 The link of nature draw me: flesh of flesh,
915 Bone of my bone thou art, and from thy state
916 Mine never shall be parted, bliss or woe."

955 So forcible within my heart I feel
956 The bond of Nature draw me to my own,
957 My own in thee; for what thou art is mine:
958 Our state cannot be severed, we are one,
959 One flesh. To lose thee were to lose myself."

Sooooo just like a man, huh? hahahahaah

No, Rich, I have not been there, but I would love to go it sounds wonderful!!!

Rich - I seem to recall the Isabella Stewart Gardener Museum was were the painting Christ in the Storm was stolen from. All we're seeing of this painting is reproductions. I did find it in another book (cannot remember now which one) and the reproduction is much better. For some reason that painting haunts me....I'd love to see it back in the museum where it belongs.

Ginny ~ thank you so much for the Milton link....I've added it to my Favorites so I can go back whenever I want.

EmmaB, the caption next to the painting in the book states: "Rembrandt, Christ in the storm on the Sea of Galilee, 1633, 160x127 cm. Boston, Isabella Stuart Gardner Museum (stolen)."

Are you saying the image we see in the book is from a reproduction, and not painted by Rembrandt?

Rich

Rich - I don't know if the image reproduced in the book is a photo from the original or a published reproduction from some other source. I'm sure the original was photographed and documented.

Rembrandt's Christ in a Storm...this one can be viewed from across the room on your monitor. I want to save this image and try to brighten it a bit for my own enjoyment.

" Isabella Stewart Gardener Museum" Have you mystery story fans read Jane Langton's "Murder at the Gardner"? It was written before the theft of the Rembrandt, and the fictional plot involves the theft of another painting (The Rape of Europa) from the Gardner museum. I often wondered if the Rembrandt thrives got the idea from the book.

It's a great introduction to the Gardner, full of Langton's charming drawings of the Museum and it's contents.

JohnK ~ I haven't read the book but would have passed it right over because of the spelling of Gardner. Now I'm interested and will put it on my reading list, thanks.

Here's a portrait of Isabella done by John Singer Sargent. It's typical of his tall vertical style of portraits. Its presence in the museum is quite imposing.

http://www.jssgallery.org/Paintings/Isabella_Stewart_Gardner.htm

I would guess that the burglers avoided looking Ms. Gardner in the eye while making away with the paintings.

Rich

Edit: I like Anders Zorn's painting (bottom of story) of Ms. Gardner in Venice much better than the formal Sargent one.

Rich - I like the painting Ms.Gardner in Venice very much. That first one by John Singer Sargent has too much background which is distracting in my opinion.

My paperback book "Rembrandt's Eyes" is a First Edition. I went back to read p.406 again and it says "Beneath the car, a watery abyss opens with sedge marking the damp fissure".

I love that link, Rich, and that portrait of her, boy howdy that's some waist. And didn't she have vision, tho? Now I'd like to go to that museum, have never been there. I had never been to the Sir John Sloane's one either and that was a revelation too. I like reading about things before I get there.

Emma, keep that book!! CAR!! ahahaha

It's amazing how some museums treat their masterpieces. Some allow you to get right up on them which is ideally I guess the way it should be, and then they suffer consequences which then cause the rest of us to stare thru bulletproof glass at stuff.

I really like the Good Samaritan on page 413, what do you all think of it, what did YOU see first? I'm going off to try to find a better view of it.

Ok here is some information on Rembrandt's The Good Samaritan, 1633 that Schama might have included. There is one in the Pierpont Morgan Library in NYC, I see Schama says (which is my next "got to see," they have just opened it again after renovation, but…

http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/rembp/hod_41.1.53.htm

The Met says:

Rembrandt (Rembrandt Harmensz. van Rijn) (Dutch, 1606–1669)
Etching and drypoint; first state of four
Gift of Felix M. Warburg and his family, 1941 (41.1.53)

This etching depicts the final scene in the parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10:25–37) in which the Samaritan stopped to help a traveler who had been attacked by robbers. Here he has brought the wounded man on horseback to an inn and pays for the man's care and lodging. This is one of two etchings in which Rembrandt reproduced his own paintings. The Good Samaritan repeats with a number of variations the composition of his painting in the Wallace Collection, London. Among Rembrandt's additions here to the largely empty foreground that appeared in the painting is the defecating dog that adds a note of everyday reality to the biblical scene.

I did not know this was a reproduction of a painting in London, did you? Looks like that might be an important thing to hear.

What's "first state of four" mean?

Actually I think the one in the book is larger, what strikes your eye first? Why do you think he put the dog there?

I did not know the etching was a reproduction of a painting in London ? Click for another etching (reprinted after 1821) from the painting by William Hogarth titled "The Good Samaritan" (1735)...It is entirely different. The dog doing his business is the first thing I see in The Good Samaritan by Rembrandt. In the one by Hogarth the dog was licking his wounds. Not sure if Rembrandt wasn't trying to be funny or not...or maybe one of his students added it ? Not being able to ask him I guess we'll never know.
"first state of four"...I've never heard this term. A guess would be it's the first copy of four that were printed from the original plate.

I found this in an article on engraving and etching.

A state is any stage in the development of a print at which impressions are printed. A change of state occurs only with the addition or removal of lines on a plate. Variations that may occur in the inking or printing do not constitute a change in state. Impressions from the plate in its earliest known condition are said to be of the first state, in the second condition second state, and so forth.

EmmaB, Looks like your guess was right.

Will be back later today.

Rich

Rembrandt’s placing of the “defaecating dog” in the painting of the Good Samaritan is in keeping with the thoughts expressed in the review shown below : - you can see the etching of the errant Monk by scrolling down the blog indicated by the hyperlink at the end of this post.

Rembrandt's Eyes. - from book review in Art Bulletin, June, 2000 by Benjamin Binstock

Schama is more faithful to his own thesis concerning Rembrandt's genius in his discussion of women and sexuality. He is certainly correct that Rembrandt's innovations in his representations of women and the female nude were related to his own attitude toward women. In a book seeking to depict life through Rembrandt's eyes, however, one is chagrined to encounter the familiar chastising of Rembrandt's "great moral ugliness" toward his housekeeper Geertge Dircx (p. 547). Schama the prosecutor brazenly invokes "Rembrandt's rough manner of paint-handling, and his still rougher attitude to sex and money" (p. 568) and unfairly prejudices the jury in claiming that the erotic etchings were made "while Rembrandt was in the throes of his sexual relationship with Geertje" (p. 544). The Flute Player is dated 1642, the last year Saskia was alive, the Monk in a Cornfield is undated, and Het Ledikant is dated 1646, not 1652, as Schama later asserts (p. 552). This last work could predate any alleged sexual encounter with Gee rtge. Both the female figure and the tender relation of the gently love-making couple--as Schama neglects to point out, they gaze into each other's eyes--recall Rembrandt's earlier depictions of Saskia. Following previous authors, Schama relates Rembrandt's Bathsheba of 1654 to the summons received that same year by his then pregnant common-law wife, Hendrickje Stoffels, to appear before the Church elders on the charges of adultery (hoererij). Yet his eloquent reading of the painting is curiously at odds with the way we would expect this issue to be seen through the eyes of Rembrandt, the accused coadulterer:

http://www.artistsunite-ny.org/blog/?p=479

Brian

Good supportive information, Brian.

On the subject of the squatting dog in "The Good Samaritan" and the urination in the "Abduction of Ganymede," I find I really don't like Rembrandt when he gets earthy in his way. It was a relief to turn the page and find Rembrandt had changed the subject in "Belshazzar's Feast."

I guess I'm turning into an old prude. I find it difficult to find any current Hollywood film that doesn't have something grossly offensive in it. Correction: A couple of days ago I saw the new Woody Allen film "Scoop" and thoroughly enjoyed it. No toilet jokes, and lots of laughs.

Rich

(p. 417) The Prophet Daniel read the writing on the wall for King Belshazzar. MENE, MENE, TEKEL, PARSIN.
Mene - God has numbered the days of your reign and brought it to an end.
Tekel - You have been weighed on the scales and found wanting.
Peres, Upharsin (sp?) - Your kingdom is divided and given to the Mendes and Persians who joined forces to overthrow the Babylonian empire.
Is that where the expression "read the handwriting on the wall" comes from ?
I know, I'm a little ahead with my reading but wanted another subject.

EmmaB, Yes, that story is the origin of the common expression "Read the handwriting on the wall," and also the expression "Your days are numbered."

Lots of phrases that we use in everyday language come from the Old and New Testament, and most of us are not even aware of it.

Rich

Re the Abduction of Ganymede, I didn't know Ganymede was a mythical character. In my long-gone science fiction reading days, Ganymede (Jupiter's largest moon) was very often the place chosen by SF writers for earth scientists to detect extraterrestial activities.

Ginny, like EmmaBarb, I am ready to go on beyond the p#413 shown in the discussion header.

Rich

OK let's do, I love that Belthazaar's Feast, let's go to 425 and add a week on.

I knew I had heard of Ganymede, Rich, thank you for that reminder.

I also am tired of the "earthy" stuff, and I see Schama making the connection the critics didn't like Rembrandt doing it, either.

Small wonder.

Emma I LOVE your tag line: 400 Years of Rembrandt, good for you!

Emma I have seen that other etching of the Good Samaritan, it was the one I knew, but I did not know IT was of a painting, either.

Rich thank you for the State of Four, that's marvelous, who KNEW? Good guess, Emma!!!

Brian I am glad to see you again, what an interesting article by Binstock, my goodness, it's good to have other voices raised here too about the book.

I was sort of wondering if he were more faithful to his own theses in several instances, but don't know enough to say, but I think we're beginning to know more than we did, where do you FIND these things? Thank you for that.

Not looking foward to the Monk for some reason but the Feast is different!

Emma, love the translation, I say let's go ahead, too, can't wait to get to it, page 425 for us!

Your number is up and the Handwriting on the Wall, neato!!

You all go ahead to 425 and I'll chime in when I get back tomorrow night.

No, no no no!

Not, "Your number is up!" That's for bakeries, and the deli counter at the supermarket!

It's "Your days are numbered." From the handwriting on the wall.

Rich

Rich - oh yes, I forgot about "your days are numbered".

I think we should get some kind of art history degree when we finish this book

I thought "your number is up" was from the gangster movies. haahaa

O.K. Louie, yer number is up. BLAM! Thud. So much for Louie.

New subject. I like the drama going on in "Belshazzar's Feast." I was surprised to read that the painting had been "cropped" a number of times and rotated. I agree with the author that the painting becomes even more dramatic if you rotate it a few degrees counterclockwise. The sense of collapse becomes even more pronounced.

The shadowy figure on the far left playing the recorder and looking at us is interesting. It reminds me of the little guy on the ship in Rembrandt's painting "Christ in the Storm on the Sea of Galilee" who was ignoring the terrible things going on around him and calmly staring out of the painting at us.

In theatre and film, Bertolt Brecht used a technique where he forced the audience to believe that what he was depicting was actually happening as you saw it. The Germans have a way of describing a concept in one word that would take paragraphs in English. He called it "verfremdungseffect."

Often he would use the technique of having one of the actors suddenly begin talking directly to the audience so that they felt they were "really there." I remember one of his films where a street scene was being portrayed. The front door of a store opens and a woman comes out pushing a stroller with a child in it. As the stroller goes by the camera the child waves to the camera!...Pulling you right into the scene!

The shadowy person in the corner playing the recorder and looking at us is very "Brechtian."

Rich

Am I all alone, here?

Rich

No, sorry, but I'm delayed getting in. I got very confused on a number of things in Belshazaar's Feast, which I certainly like better than the Samaritan.

I was not sure how the cropping showed a better understanding than Jan Muller's did (which apparently is at the Fine Arts Museum of San Francisco, unfortunately my ISP is too slow to bring it up) of the huge hall, I dont see that. Aren't there a thousand plus present? I love the Feast we have, tho, I guess by zooming in (not sure who did all the cropping, were you all?) we can focus on the event better.

I was not understanding why the letters were not written on the wall and were not written right to left but up and down, and for some stupid reason I expected them to say mene mene etc., and they don't!!

And then, very unsatisfyingly, we plunge into Sampson's Eyes. I had to move right thru that whole description on to page 435 this afternoon. I did know and have seen how bloody and gory some of the early religious art is. I must admit I really like the Medusa's Head which I never saw by Rubens, but on page 423 Schama goes a little overboard with the business about euphrasis or eyebright, whose bright blue flower....on and on. I mean really. It's almost like Association on Speed.

sorry.

There's a whole section coming up of Tobit and I must admit I know nothing of his story at all so it's violently interesting to me, another lovely painting in words starting the next Chapter (on, guess who? Rubens hahaaha) Wrestling With Rubens, but I am just absolutely struck down by Tobit Going to Meet Tobias on page 429, which I hope we can discuss?

If you saw today's New York Times you can see the Rembrandts on exhibition thru the end of this month I think, in Boston. One of them is just splendid,makes me want to get on a plane! They are showing St. Jerome in an Italian Landscape by Rembrandt, it’s wonderful. I did find that online.

Rich I wish I had your eyes, WHAT figure on the left playing the recorder and looking at us? In my book nobody at all is looking at us? Good point on the Brecht, people do that in literature, too, they suddenly address the reader, it’s quite eerie sometimes.

(I did notice Schama made a point about the unusually dark underpainting, I really like this one) what's light really stands out, very rich. I'd like to see it in person. It's in London, too. Do we know how big it is?

I'm up to 435 2 days early to escape Samson's Blinding, anybody want to join me there or would you like to linger on Sampson and the Platonic theory "reiterated in a number of contemporary opthalomlogical manuals..." on page 421.

I feel as if I've eaten "the whole thing." hhahaa The entire kitchen sink, yet I feel not enough has been said of Belshazzar's Feast in the book NOR especially Tobit Going to Meet Tobias.

Of all of the Rembrandts we've seen so far, as we're now more than half way thru the book, which ONE of all of them so far stands out the most for you? And why?

O.K. Locating the person looking at us and playing the recorder:..

Find the well dressed woman in the front left wearing the plumed hat.

Follow The top (black/brown) plume.

The plume ends at the eye and ear of the mysterious individual playing the recorder. (Painted very faintly.)

The white part of the well dressed woman's hat (it looks like a white turkey drumstick) points to the recorder player's nose.

See it? Anyone?

Rich

GINNY: the inscription DOES say "mene, mene", but in Hebrew characters. Knowing a little Hebrew, I confidently looked at the inscription first, expecting to me able to read it, and was completely bewildered until I read the text that said it was written top down, instead of left to right. Oh! I have no idea why R did that, I had never heard that Hebrew was written from the top down. But I'm certainly not a scholar.

Ginny: it's been too long. Do you remember how to get into the table with different characters? I wanted to post some Hebrew, but I've forgotten.

I don't have the book here -- I have no place to put it next to my computer. If I get the time, I'll write more about it.

Rich - good analogy with the Brecht technique and Rembrandt's paintings. Rembrandt had a way of making us look where he wanted us to.

My feeling about the cropping was some ~~stupid~~ person that didn't know what they were doing if they actually cut away part of the actual painting. (Just my personal opinion.)

I hate Medusa's Head.....always have. I had to cover the painting in the book in order to be able to read those two pages without getting ill. I never realized Rubens painted that. I'm also not wanting to plunge into Sampson's eyes again...I thought we did that already.

Ginny ~ I've never read the "Book of Tobit" and got interested in that and the healing of the blind Tobit.
Someone told me (a history buff) that way back in the ancient days someone would take the thorns off a bush and scrape out the cataract covering the lens. I'm soooo very glad modern medicine has progressed to the level it has today, especially since I've had two cataract surgeries with lens replacements with great success.

About mysterious figures in the dark underpaintings.....often a painting was (or is) painted over because of lack of panels or canvases OR the artist changes his (or her) mind and doesn't enhance that part of the painting. When old paintings are restored these often show up....some times cleaning is more aggressive to see if there is a painting under that's better. There's a famous Dutch painting of Christ on the Cross that showed three of Christ on the Cross and all in different places. So that painting was re-worked several times before the final one.

Emma

I found a Hebrew font:

GINNY: when you tried to read the inscription, did you remember that Hebrew is written from right to left (as well as, in this case from top to bottom). I stupidly wrote left to right in my last post, just to confuse you further (sigh). So the first word of the inscription is in the far RIGHT column, as follows:

מ (mem – M)

נ (nun –N. There are no letters for vowels in Hebrew. The vowel after the M would be expressed as little dots below the letter, or, as here, left out). )

א (aleph – silent letter that carries a vowel sound, often ah. Corresponds to our A)

Hence “mene”.

ק הנוי (JoanK)

I edited the post above, and when I reposted them, the computer reversed the letters of my name to read left to right, instead of right to left (making something like "Koney" I'm not going to try to correct it, goodness knows what it would do next. Just call me Koney.

Koney, you amaze me! haahah THANK you for that!! That's beautiful, how are you doing that when I struggle to even get a ē long mark over a vowel??

Rich, thank you, a lute player in the smoke or the plume? Like a ghost? I was looking for some sort of flat zither type of thing, I would never have seen that alone (and it took one set of contacs, one pair of reading glasses AND a magnifying glass to see this one). Amazing!

I can see now also it says it's 167 by 202 centimeters in size. I am sure it's very powerful in person, because it is on the page.

Emma, you don't like Medusa's head! I'm that way about the eyes, and I agree with you about the Sampson, so if you all like, let's move on to Tobit, if not let's hear you discuss Sampson, I'm going to put the pages up to 435 this morning...I am thinking that ALL of the major illustrations in this book should have an entire page to themselves, so we can at least SEE them. Less Plato, less blue flowers, more illustrations: my own thoughts.

Tobias is concerned, apparently, with Ninevah, and that's Jonah and the Whale, right? On page 428 Schama says

Tobias's wife, Sarah...was, according to the Apodrypha, not present at the scene but was left at the gates of Ninevah while her husband returned to his faher.

There is something extremely poignant to me in Tobit Going to Greet Tobias on page 429, but for some reason it reminds me of the short story The Monkey's Paw.

This next chapter gets into the Jewish presence in Amsterdam and it's quite interesting. Of all of the engravings I saw in the Rembrandt House and Museum a very tiny one of a Jewish family at a fruit market, I think it was, really jumped out at me. I bought a copy of it (and have it SOMEWHERE) hahaah Looking ahead toward the end of the book, I see some great paintings coming up, some very famous ones but I don't see any of the engravings he did of the common people which are all over the Rembrandthuis and Museum. Maybe I need to look harder! Interesting.

Rembrandt did seem to be obsessed with the story of Tobit and Tobias, one that I am not familiar with at all. I assume it is from the old testament.

Trying to fill in the information blanks: Is Tobias the fabled Prodigal Son, and Tobit his father?

Rich

Another subject, Re. the book. Following Brian's advice, I have been renewing "Rembrandt's Eyes" on line. I just click on RENEW and bingo! a message flashes telling me I'm good for a couple more weeks.

The last time, however, when I clicked on RENEW the message came back:

"TOO MANY RENEWALS."

Oh-oh now what?

Undeterred, I cooked up another plan. Mrs. Rich7 would go to the library, check it in under my name, and pay whatever fine was due, if any, then check it out in her name.

While that was in process, the librarian asked her why I had renewed the book so many times. She told them I was working on a project for SeniorNet. That triggered an unexpected response. I was given another renewal for six weeks!.

I guess mentioning SeniorNet sometimes gives us a bit more clout.

Rich

I'll bet they thought you had lost or misplaced the book and were stalling!

Brian

For the Hebrew fonts...all I'm getting are little rectangular ? boxes

Tobias (The Prodigal Son) was Tobit's son ... right ? I've not read the Apocrypha Book of Tobit...it's not included in my bible. I'm curious though and would like to know more about the Christian writings that were left out.

Rich - on the message "too many renewals"....find another library (maybe). That's great you received another six weeks for mentioning SeniorNet

Emma

EMMA: I couldn't find the Hebrew fonts that came with the computer: I know they exist because I've used them before, but didn't record how I got into them. Instead, I used the Hebrew fonts that came with Wordperfect and then cut-and-pasted.

Onward and upward!

Joan, Hebrew fonts? I'm having enough trouble with English fonts, and I still don't know how to put an "umlaut" over German words.

Ginny, to answer your earlier question, I havn't seen anything in the way of a Rembrandt painting, so far in the reading, that blows me away.

Technically, "The Anatomy Class of Doctor Tulp" is quite a piece of work, but due to its subject matter, I wouldn't want it hanging on my living room wall.

Rich

Rich - if you have the Character Map on your computer (mine is under Accessories), it will have the Alt + #'s to use for umlauts etc. Try it (if you haven't already)...hold down the Shift key and play with combinations on the numbers pad. It's fun !

When I read Schama for the first time, it was the late paintings that blew me away. We haven't gotten to them yet.

Rubens' "Descent from the Cross" does. The Rembrandt of the older cople with her standing and handing him something is close.

The paintings that Rembrandt executed for Huygens were not very good.

It looks like, at the time, Rembrandt was trying to be another Rubens. . He had not yet found his "voice" (as they say about writers). Rembrandt was better at studies of people, while Rubens was a master of the grandiose.

To me, Rubens was a "Cecil B. DeMille" (The Ten Commandments), and Rembrandt was more of a "John Ford" (The Grapes of Wrath).

EmmaB, I havn't tried your "umlaut" advice, but I intend to.

Rich

I think I got too far ahead on the reading.

I'm enjoying the exchange betwen Huygens and Rembrandt. Rembrandt took a very long time to finish the paintings he was contracted to do, but, when he finally delivered, Rembrandt demanded immediate payment.

They named a street after this guy.

ONE WAY

Rich

And we all know HU invented the One Way Street, I hope?!?

hahaha

Oh good, Joan K, then we have a lot to look forward to, I've liked the boat one and the old woman and I love this one of Tobit!!

Hahah Rich Cecil B Demille, don't you wonder what Rembrandt would think and do TODAY? Or do we? Would he be any different?

Hahah Brian, I'm very impressed, our Rich, with the libary's response! Good for you! We're more than half through and the best is yet to come!

Emma, I don't understand character maps, all of you do umlauts, is there a script that shows on most computers? For instance, do you all see this in script?

Two days to go are you all up to 435?? Well at least we're off Sampson, who needs it? Are you all up with me? Let's discuss Tobit Going to Greet Tobias!!! Schama has given us the story.

Here an old man...

alone in his kitchen, suddenly aware of his son's presence at the door and moving with affecting clumsiness, his right foot rising in his slipper as he shuffles as fast as he can toward the door, knocking over the spinning wheel, the emblem of his long-suffering wife's domestic virtue, and colliding with the faithful dog. Tobit's eyes are marked b y deep black lines suggesting that Rembrandt used the burin to make a velvety burr on the ethcing plate. Nonetheless, Rembrandt has managed to give them the appearance of both sight as well as blindness....

I t is not enough though. For Tobit moves, in fact, not toward the half open door which we can see plainly to hi right, but toward a collision with his own shadow.

Here is a condensed story of Tobit from http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/tobit/intro.htm

The Book of Tobit, named after its principal hero, combines specifically Jewish piety and morality with oriental folklore in a fascinating story that has enjoyed wide popularity in both Jewish and Christian circles. Prayers, psalms, and words of wisdom, as well as the skillfully constructed story itself, provide valuable insights into the faith and the religious milieu of its unknown author. The book was probably written early in the second century B.C.; it is not known where.

Tobit, a devout and wealthy Israelite living among the captives deported to Nineveh from the northern kingdom of Israel in 721 B.C., suffers severe reverses and is finally blinded. Because of his misfortunes he begs the Lord to let him die. But recalling the large sum he had formerly deposited in far-off Media, he sends his son Tobiah there to bring back the money. In Media, at this same time, a young woman, Sarah, also prays for death, because she has lost seven husbands, each killed in turn on his wedding night by the demon Asmodeus. God hears the prayers of Tobit and Sarah, and sends the angel Raphael in disguise to aid them both.

Raphael makes the trip to Media with Tobiah. When Tobiah is attacked by a large fish as he bathes, Raphael orders him to seize it and to remove its gall, heart, and liver because they make "useful medicines." Later, at Raphael's urging, Tobiah marries Sarah, and uses the the fish's heart and liver to drive Asmodeus from the bridal chamber. Returning to Nineveh with his wife and his father's money, Tobiah rubs the fish's gall into his father's eyes and cures them. Finally, Raphael reveals his true identity and returns to heaven. Tobit then utters his beautiful hymn of praise. Before dying, Tobit tells his son to leave Nineveh because God will destroy that wicked city. After Tobiah buries his father and mother, he and his family depart for Media, where he later learns that the destruction of Nineveh has taken place.

The inspired author of the book used the literary form of religious novel (as in Jonah and Judith) for the purpose of instruction and edification. There may have been a historical nucleus around which the story was composed, but this possibility has nothing to do with the teaching of the book. The seemingly historical data-names of kings, cities, etc.-are used merely as vivid details to create interest and charm

So Tobit IS blind then?

This is a very affecting piece, to me. So Tobit has sent his son away and hears or knows his son is outside but misses the door in his eager shuffling forward, t his one is enough to make one cry. It reminds me of the words to "Danny Boy,"

But come ye back when summer's in the meadow
Or when the valley's hushed and white with snow.
It's I'll be here in sunshine or in shadow
Oh Danny boy O Danny boy, I love you so.

Always makes me cry even now just writing it, even when I was young. This thing also is very moving to me.

Don't you think this is powerful? What have you noticed about it? I was not sure why the spinning wheel, her housewifely virtue, was knocked over, I don't know the whole story, what does that mean?

He's in such a hurry, (how long has Tobias been gone?) that he's preceding his cane, he's not using it and he should because he's off to the side. I love that. How beautifully Rembrandt has caught the hurried motion there, notice the knees and the stumbling by the twist of the ankle half out of the slipper. What else do you notice, that's what I see? I'm not seeing the door is open actually? How does he know it's Tobias, does he hear his voice?

I got from the reading that the spinning wheel was knocked over by Tobit rushing blindly to the door, then tripping over the dog and heading for a crash with his own shadow.

I know that it's supposed to be a heart wrenching story (and clearly the etching affected you that way, Ginny) but I can almost see something comical about the etching. Sort of a Mr. Magoo cartoon. I know that's not the artist's intention, but I guess that was the mood I was in when I first saw it, and now I can't get Mr. Magoo out of my mind. (But that's just me. I still laugh when Woody Allen slips on a banana peel.)

As for the song Danny Boy, it has the same emotional effect on me as you, Ginny. Frank McCourt's brother, Malachy, wrote a surprisingly scholarly small book on the origin, lore, and misinterpretations of that song. The book's title is "Danny Boy," and it makes very interesting reading. It can be read in an afternoon.

For instance, who is singing the song, and to whom? One lover to another? A parent to a son? There are many opinions, but no definitive answer.

Rich

The following is a Publisher's weekly review of the book from several years ago.

"Danny Boy" is one of the best-known and most beloved songs in the Western world. Whether sung at funeral masses or by Elvis Presley, it nearly always raises a lump in the throat and brings a tear to the eye. The song itself may be simple and direct, but McCourt (A Monk Swimming) has written a lively and detailed cultural history of the tune's origins, cultural meanings and political import that is as fascinating as it is frequently provocative. While the tune of "Danny Boy" (also known as the Londonderry, or Derry, air) may well date back to Rory Dall O'Cahan, an Irish harpist who lived in Scotland in the late 17th century, the words as we know them today were penned by a British barrister and prolific song writer, Frederick Edward Weatherly. Having written the lyrics for another tune in 1910, Weatherly adopted them to the Derry air two years later and had an immediate hit, which despite its English origins became profoundly identified with Ireland and its struggle for independence. Unafraid of exploring all possibilities of the song's meaning is it sung by a grieving mother or a desolate gay male lover? is it about the great starvation and emigration? McCourt succeeds in making his case that the song is both specific and universal. Less sustained as cultural history than David Margolic's stunning Strange Fruit: The Biography of a Song, McCourt's reprise of "Danny Boy" is highly entertaining and idiosyncratically informative. (Mar.)Forecast: Running Press is going all out with a 100,000 first printing, hoping to attract all those who've wept to the song. A book by a McCourt brother will do just that especially because of the fortunate release around St. Patrick's Day. Copyright 2002 Cahners Business Information, Inc.

Rich

Mr. Magoo

http://melaman2.com/cartoons/singles/stills/M/magoo5.jpg

Rich

I too read a bit more pages today. But I'm not sure what I read so appreciate anything I read here right now.

I think Rembrandt was holding out for more money when it took him more than three years to finish those three paintings...for Huygens was it ? If he'd only know then that today his paintings are going for millions of dollars he'd have held out for much more

Rich - I missed that one where they named a street after the guy...it's funny it was one way (haha) but was it Huygens street ?
I wouldn't have thought they'd have one way streets back in those days....hmmmmmm.

Ginny ~ thanks ever so much for the link and condensed story of Tobit.
About the "character map" on most everyone's computer...it shows you how to make certain characters using the "Alt key" as well as giving you the option to "copy and paste" it in your text. Click here for a list you can bookmark or print out for reference if you care to. However, the numeric code I think should be holding down the Alt key and then type the # following that. Like plus-minus would be Alt+177 thus ± ... I see you have to add a 0 in front of the 177 (Alt+0177). I like several that are not on the keyboard.....like ¼ ½ ¾ and the cent sign ¢ .
Oh Danny boy has always been dear to my heart and puts tears in my eyes when I hear it (I have a grandson named Danny too which makes me even more sentimental).
There were so many Apocrypha or Books ? of Christian writings left out of the Bible I'm used to....I have heard many of these stories but never about Tobit. I wonder what group of people decided what to leave out and what to include ? I guess many were not even discovered until after the Bible was in print.
Blind self-destruction or morally blinded ?

I got that Tobit was outside the door and rushing to see the prodigal son returned, being still blind he bumped into his own shadow. His son Tobias who was now an eye surgeon, performed cataract surgery on him with the help of his new wife Sarah acting as a nurse holding the basin and the archangel looking over them and guiding them so Tobit would not be blinded anymore.

Emma

Thank you Emma, I will try to master it!

I'm not blind but I do have very poor eyesight, and am getting old and I can relate in every detail to what Rembrandt has done here, I am thinking. If it were I, I'd leap up (if that's the appropriate word) and stumble forward (without contacs it would be a stumble) banging into the dog which I have done, forgetting to use the cane, fumbling out of my slippers, (if I wore them) and almost falling. I really relate to what I'm seeing here.

Rich, honestly, Mr Magoo!!!?! ahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Only you. That is till Brian gets in here.

This engraving sort of exemplifies, actually, how I go thru life. This is sort of me? Actuallly.

(I just read yesterday that your INBOX in your email exemplifes your entire life. If it's cluttered and huge, and out of control, so is your life etc.)

I must have a copy of this engraving, Mr. Magoo (yes there is some resemblance if you're determined to see one) ahahah notwithstanding. I think Rembrandt was first. hahahaaaaaaaaaaa

Well now tomorrow we're due to launch on, are you ready for 7 more pages or should we hold??

I had never heard the story of Tobit. I, too, found the picture very ffecting.

I'm definitely ready to move foreward. Truth is, I forgot the assigned page limit and read well beyond the assignment. Some of my comments in the last few postings are about future pages, and you've probably been wondering what I have been talking about. i.e. Rembrandt vs Huygens, Cecil B. DeMille vs. John Ford, etc.

Sorry about finding humor in a serious depiction. I think I'm outnumbered on that issue. But every discussion group has its insensitive clod, doesn't it?

Rich

Me, either JoanK, so we've learned something.

Rich at the top of the page here always, are the page numbers, they are in the title line:

---Rembrandt's Eyes by Simon Schama~ 8/07/06-8/14/06: pages 425-435 Discussion Continues with Part 2

I have to constantly refer to them myself!

What? Insensitive clod? not hardly!!!! Comparative Art, that's you, Rembrandt would probably have agreed with you!

RICH: Insensative clod? Nah! you're OK. I posted a snide comment, and then erased it. I hope you didn't see it. If you did, forget it. We all laugh at other people sometimes. I haven't seen Mr. Magoo in years, but I used to find him funny, too.

Comparative art. Thats it. You all see a touching bible story, and I see Mr Magoo. Oh well, what is it they say about the eye of the beholder?

I hope I can get somebody to agree with me about the upcoming reading; like Rembrandt going into a slump, and unsuccessfully trying to be another Rubens.

If I can't get agreement, here, I think I'll quit and join a discussion group on raising hierloom turnips.

Joan, No, I didn't see your comment.

Rich

Good! Sometimes my tongue is faster than my brain.

Well done Rich, you have awakened me from a prolonged sleep.
Your comical comment led me to undertake an expeditious research on root vegetables.
The natural consequence was a trip to - - - Egyptian Walking Onions !!
I had not previously heard of them either.

I saw an ad on T.V. the other day for a tilting, adjustible table that can be pulled
right up to one’s armchair, and promptly ordered it, anticipating that it might make
reading this heavy book a little easier.

Keep up the good work, I am reading all the comments even if I am not posting much.

Brian

I used to enjoy watching Mr. Magoo on TV.

Would someone please translate the following for me ?
"con amore, studio e diligenza"
I know amore means love and studio I guess is still studio. Referring to Rubens "garden of love" paintings with nude figures surrounding the center figure. Rembrandt didn't want that but did copy Rubens little cherubs.

Heirloom turnips ... Egyptian walking onions .... hmmmmmmm

Speaking of this heavy book-- I'm really disappointed that the copy of my book has split from it's binding cover about in the middle. Any ideas on how to repair (or glue) it ? Makes it even harder to hold with half the book wanting to fall away.

Emma

RICH: please don't abandon us for turnips: we really are more fun --- most of the time anyway. And I know turnips wouldn't appreciate your sense of humor as much as we do.

Definitely don't abandon ship after all this journey!!

We may not agree with your Huygens statement, tho, let's move ahead and all look a t it!

I'll add 10 more pages to the top!

Brian, I got one of those is it white and $29.95??

Emma, sorry your book is falling apart! I have an EF Benson like that. I am not sure what you can do, I spend half my time "reading" at night finding the next page in EF Benson which is scattered all over the bed ahhahaa

Yes it's a ponderous book, fit for weightlifting!

I have not yet taken delivery of my adjustable reading table, but as far as I can remember
it was $29.95 or something in that range. All I remember was that the phone call was one
of the longest I have ever made - - - they wanted to send me three for the price of two - - - all
kinds of extra gizmos etc. - - - and they were very disappointed in me for insisting that they were
only going to get ONE sale for the call. I have to wait "two to six weeks for delivery" Oh well !!

Is it any good? Is it worth waiting for? I don't know whether it is white or not.

Brian

"With love, I study diligently",

Brian (one of Ginny's students in SeniorNet Latin 101)

And it is terrific! I can rest Rembrandt on it, angle it down, and pull the whole shebang right up to my
mid-section (belly) and read to my heart's content. It's called TableMate, and it works like a charm.

Now back to work, or as the French used to say : "Retournons à nos moutons".

Brian

Brian - thank you so much for that translation. I almost had it but couldn't figure what "studio e" meant. Now I can think about something else. I believe it's also Italian isn't it ?
I'm glad you received your table and like it. I put a pillow from the sofa on my lap to rest the book on....have to have my reading glasses on too.

I've been looking for a good picture of the "Crowning of Diana".
Emma

Brian, Sounds like your new table not only holds the giant Rembrandt book, my guess is it could be useful for having a snack during a good TV program.

Just got in the mail a catalogue of European river cruises. One of the trips included three nights in Amsterdam. No mention of Rembrandt. I wonder if his house still exists. Prof. Sharma says the house was on Vlooienburg Island in Amsterdam.

Anyone here been to Amsterdam?

Rich

Brian that's IT!! It won't work for what I wanted, reading in bed (I ordered mine online so missed the exciting sales pitch) but it does work for a chair! We'll be the TableMate Twins!

Rich, my yes, you mean I have not bored you to tears with Tales of my Trips to Amsterdam? WELL....we can fix that! Hahahaha I will be glad to natter on about Rembrandt's House and Museum and anything and everything else, love Amsterdam, just remember U Asked For It! Hahahaa

I got that too, Vacations to Go? Viking River Cruises? All I can say is they really goose the descriptions up, but you don't need them. You can go down the Rhine on your Eurail Pass free and get on and off huge Rhine boats at your leisure not where their particular boats choose to dock. Bacharach is one of the most beautiful little towns I ever saw, the Rhine boats which themselves are huge, and stop there like a train.

Speaking of boat trips, the one from Greece to Crete is something everybody should do in their lifetime just for the experience, bigger than any cruise ship, with the same amenities and staterooms, this "ferry" is astonishing, I recommend it highly.

That newsletter always seems to start with something that happened which was negative and then this person's reassuring explanations as an "insider" and then other opportunities. It's interesting. Their prices are not as good as you can get elsewhere but some of the stuff they send does look fabulous.

Brian, great translation of the Italian, see what the study of Latin does for you? Moutons? Sheep? Are you contemplating the life of a shepherd?

Onward to 445, I confess I have fallen behind 10 pages and will make that up today! (Once I get the Diet Pepsi out of the keyboard, that is).

Ginny, I think I missed your Amsterdam experiences. That was probably before I joined the discussion.

This brochure is called Small Ship Travel. It's run by Grand Circle Travel. I really like your suggestion about doing the Eurailpass thing and getting on and off the boats at your leisure. I like travel on my schedule (or lack of schedule) rather than being on a rigid itinerary. Going to look into that further.

We're going to Budapest and Prague next month on a package tour. That is, we're signed up for it, however, the going and coming puts us twice at Heathrow Airport. Don't know how all that's going to shake out.

Rich

Well now you are going to absolutely love Budapest and Prague, I have a friend who never shuts up about either and another who goes to Prague every year and I have never been to either, nor Ephesus nor Dubrovnik nor Split nor Pula and I really need to make up that lack.

and I wish to hear ALL, we'll have to go into the Travel Sections and talk when you get back!

Right on on the travel by self, when feasable, Germany is well set up for that, there's some kind of tiny fabulous fairy tale castle (not Neuschwanstein) off the Rhine that Rick Steves says is his all time favorite in the world, not far from Koln (Cologne) on one of the stops (the trains also parallel the Rhine) that I also never got to, so many fabulous castles, so little time!

(p. 444) - ...another apposite....
Guess it's an Italian thing...I'd never think to use the word "apposite".

My oldest grandson is saving his money and hopes to go to Amsterdam when he graduates from college next year. A few of his friends went after high school graduation. We shall see.

Oh he'll love that, Emma, that's a wonderful place. Tell him to also go to Bruges on the train, it's magic!

But I just saw on the site for the newly opened J. Pierpont Morgan Library in NYC that THEY have the original of the image on this house sign at the Rembrandthuis in Amsterdam:

so I plan a trip to see the newly renovated library and this!

Will report back.

I'm finally caught up and for once can't seem to stop reading, I find Mr. Wtenbogaert (is that the original of Bogart as in Humphrey?) fascinating.

I believe I do agree with you, Rich, or at least I agree that that's the way Schama presents the two men.

But this section, right at the last, on the last page or so, raises all sorts of questions, for instance, I am wondering how any painter lived, that is managed to EAT while waiting for payment, it took Rembrandt 6 years? 6 long years to do this last two in the Passion series and then when he was finished they stalled on the payment? How did he make ends meet in the meantime?

Another thing I wondered about is WHERE he is supposed to have SEEN these engravings Schama keeps talking about. For instance on the one hand Schama says he could not have seen the Titian, because it was done after his XXX painting and we know he did not leave Amsterdam and we know he wanted to do his own thing, yet Schama makes reference to his having been influenced by XX and YYY in this chapter and that of course makes me wonder how he DID manage to see these engravings and paintings, did they travel around the world or visit museums? I am not sure I understand the process here.

I do think Rembrandt does a marvelous job with intensity in some of his paintings, for instance Samson Posing the Riddle at His Wedding Feast is wonderful and I love the way Samson is half in and half out of the light in his intensity but the light is on the static and self proud Delilah, I like that.

But in the Samson Threatening His Father in Law, Samson looks like Rembrandt and the father in law is so cleanly drawn he might be in another picture. What did you all think about these two paintings?

Has anybody seen any of the Rubens Ovid series?

In the Entombment, The "face looking sternly at us" is certainly hidden in my book, can you see it? I wonder if the people who reproduced these paintings wouldn't have liked to have lightened them a bit so we can see what's in the darkness, it would not be difficult to do with a photo program, just put it as it is, and then lighten it so we can actually SEE the figures he's talking about?

Emma, Diana and her Nymphs are on page 449, I'm sort of eager to move on but let's hear from you all on these or any other items in these 10 pages so we don't go too fast!

In "The Entombment" I think we will have to take the author's word for it that there is "..a face looking sternly and directly toward us, wearing the flat beret and unmistakable features of the Everyman-artist." (Rembrandt?) You can barely make out a faint face on the part of the canvas that Sharma describes. The reproduction in the text is poor and doesn't serve to support the author's description.

I like the expression 'Everyman-artist.' I don't know if it's origional, but it's clever. I remember hearing a Joy Brown review of a Harrison Ford film in which she stated that no matter what movie he stars in, Ford always plays his role as the "befuddled everyman." I thought that was clever and accurate.

Rich

Ginny ~ great photo of the house sign. Look forward to you reporting back from the renovated library. I'll tell my grandson to look into Bruges on the train, thanks.
I'm not seen any of the Rubens Ovid series....tell me about it please.

Guess the stalled payments on Rembrandt's commissioned paintings is why he went bankrupt (the starving artist theory). Today one would or should not consider a commission (especially a portrait) unless they have a contract and partial payment up-front and about middle-way and then when the work is complete.

I agree...I didn't understand how Rembrandt could have seen engravings and paintings when they were AFTER his were done...maybe in a dream. Well sometimes an engraving is done after a painting or viceversa.
I agree too that the photos in this book are not of good quality. Even under a strong light with a magnifying glass I'm unable to see some things Schama talks about in the paintings.

I've seen Diana and her Nymphs however I've been looking for the Crowning of Diana. Is that the same thing ?

(p. 447) ? error ..."a magnificently "got up" in a fur-trimmed coat"...

Emma

Yeeks, Emma, Crowned not Nymphaic! ahahaha I agree with all you've said here. I am not sure if this method of getting comissions shows us the state of art back then, maybe THIS is why patronage or sponsorship by an important person was important? I don't see how they ate!

Schama mentions the Ovid series by Rubens, I had never heard of it!!!

(I think "got up" is British-ese!)

Rich, Everyman, yes, do you know the Everyman Library? I love their books.

Rembrant would hardly be "everyman," tho, I am so glad you picked up that concept!!

DID he think of himself AS Everyman? Doesn't seem so!

I am picturing Brian with that white table, I hope it does not fall apart (that metal rod) like mine does every five minutes, hahahaaha

So, onward another 10 or hold or what? I am interested in this new character who seems to be able to get R money!!

Emma, "Got up" was commonly used where I grew up in New England. "She was all 'got up' in her jewels and furs." Another one is "decked out." "She was all 'decked out' in her jewels and furs."

I think "decked out" has a more recent origin, possibly reaching popularity as a WWII navy expression.

Ginny, No, never heard of the Everyman Library. Will have to check it out.

Hope Brian isn't all tangled up in his new wonder table. Maybe we should send help.

Rich

Edit: To the question: Hold or keep moving? My vote is to keep moving. At least ten more.

More on "got up." Where I grew up, a fancy set of clothes was referred to as a "get-up." "He wore his new get-up to the neighbor's lawn party."

Rich

I, too, love the "everyman library". I remember them from my childhood, and they're still going!! So the Classics are cheaper than the latest trashy best-seller.

Once, this country believed that "everyman" would read the best, if he could. We've lost that somewhere.

I should have known "got up" was used in England. I've sometimes used the words "get-up" too....like your fancy get-up.

Re; The Everyman Readers. Guess I missed them in my day.

Fewer and fewer people read these days. Ever notice how the bookstores (Barnes and Noble, Borders, etc.) are ever so slowly changing themselves into music and music video stores, as the book sections get smaller? At the same time, movie video stores are popping up all over.

Personal observation: High school and college graduation student speeches used to make references to (quotations from) great writers. Now all the quotations used for inspiration in graduation speeches are from Bruce Springsteen and Pink Floyd.

Rich

I never read Denis Ovid's classic book of myths, "Metamorphoses". Ovid's tales were in particular interesting as subjects, the themes allowed artists to push traditional boundaries.
The two most important mythological painters of the 17th century were perhaps Rubens and Poussin. Rubens however remained essentially a Christian artist.
Nicholas Poussin "Midas and Bacchus"

Oh Rich, I dunno, our local B&N does not even have that part with the audio and DVD's and you can't even get in the parking lot, the same with the two in Greenville, SC, one of which has the DVD's audio section (which nobody is ever in) and the new one which does not.

It seems to me people are reading more than ever, I wish I had one of those stores.

Emma, thank you for the Poussin, he DID do a lot of mythology. There is actually a Latin textbook for beginners based on Ovid, it's called Latin via Ovid, we considered it but Dr. Grote told me, "nymphs and bears, nymphs and bears, boring," hahahaa and so we did not.

Is everybody ready to move on or?

Ginny, check out this article from the National Endowment for the Arts.

http://www.arts.gov/news/news04/ReadingAtRisk.html

Trying to gauge the amount of reading done by the average North American by the number of people in your nearest shopping mall's Barnes and Noble or Borders is misleading. Two factors: B & N and Borders have driven most independent booksellers out of existance, and most importantly, they have become "department stores," selling videos, DVD's, stuffed animals, greeting cards, Godiva chocolates, etc. They even have their own in-store food courts.

In reporting sales, B & N and Borders do not break out video, merchandise and food court sales from their total sales figures.

Rich

When I go to our local library, the rows of computer terminals are jammed and I see very few people amoung the bookshelves. Our Borders coffee shop is a bit of a hangout for Seniors -- I hang there sometimes myself with what I call the "Borders Rats. My husband was one of the leaders of the pack.

Well for heaven's sake, Rich, who knew? Our big B&N here has NOTHING but books, I can't imagine what all those cars are there for (have always wished I had a piece of B&N). I liked this, tho:

Reading also affects lifestyle, the study shows. Literary readers are much more likely to be involved in cultural, sports and volunteer activities than are non-readers. For example, literary readers are nearly three times as likely to attend a performing arts event, almost four times as likely to visit an art museum, more than two-and-a-half times as likely to do volunteer or charity work, and over one-and-a-half times as likely to attend or participate in sports activities. People who read more books tend to have the highest level of participation in other activities.

Now that is surprising, too!

But don't you think WE'RE the reading generation? Joan K if you see those seniors there next time give them a bookmark from SeniorNet's Books! hahahaa I love Borders, also, we don't have them here but they're quite different.

I also thought perhaps they were correct, unfortunately, on the numbers of men reading!!

WELL, me hearties, yo ho! (I've seen, perhaps, one too many Pirates of the Caribbean movies, and think that Johnny Depp should have an Oscar for what he did with that performance) let's move on?

I am interested now in the nuts and bolts part of the genius artist at work, guy wants his money, DUH! Let's read on and see if he gets it!

Changing the heading to read 455, let's all chime in! Shame to quit the field at page 500, (especially when it seemed originally we could not get past page 2) hahahaa

(I have to tell you this). This morning I got up early (earlier than this) and did not want to put my contacs in so I stumbled forth without them, first stumbled into the dog, then the Nordic Trainer and then, hands out like a sleepwalker, banged into (you can't turn the lights on from that end, don't ask) a rolling book display table in the pitch black dark and had to laugh, I was the epitome of Rembrandt's Tobit! The very like!

Now a year or so ago I would not have thought of Rembrandt's Tobit, so I am thinking this has raised my....something or other.

I agree. I think we are the reading generation. I guess that's good news and bad news. Good news for us and bad news for the generations to follow.

I also was pleased to read the comment from the study: "People who read more books tend to have the highest level of participation in other activities."

Taking a break from Rembrandt today and going to visit the Amerind (American indian) museum in southern Arizona. We'll see how much influence the Flemish Masters had on pre-Columbian art.

Rich

One more thing about bookstores. I had been told about a small bookshop on a dirt road in southern Arizona called the "Singing Wind Bookstore." It reportedly has some interesting books about the old west. They say that if you don't know it's there, you won't find it, so, yesterday I took the following directions with me and set out to find it.

"Look on the right for a road sign saying 'Singing Wind Road;' go right on Singing Wind to a green gate (chained) and a Singing Wind Bookshop sign; open gate, drive through, close gate; go to the ranchhouse; ring the bell; cats may come, but someone who works at the bookshop will eventually come."

Well, that promised an unforgettable bookshop experience, however we didn't make it there. The road was covered with a foot and a half of running water rushing down from the mountains after a sudden monsoon rain. The road was impassable yesterday.

Oh well, save the experience for another day.

Now back to Rembrandt. I promise.

Rich

Wow, what a fantastic sounding bookstore, you must go back, road under water? How romantic it all sounds.

We live in the country too and your directions remind me of a sign I have seen on a neighboring dairy farmer's gates, I burst out laughing at this last one yesterday.

He has a field of cows which borders two county roads, one of them very much trafficked. One day I noticed his gate was wide open, on to the road and tho the cows were well back (I'd say it's 200 acres that field) I thought some prankster had opened it, so I stopped and closed it, as I did so seeing the farmer approaching on his tractor, fairly fast from about 1/2 mile away. I happily waved and felt good about "helping."

It must happen more than not, hahaha later on I saw a sign on the gate, nicely lettered in red:

We know you mean well
But please do not close the gate if open. We are working in the field.

Well I got a sort of blush on that one but that's nothing compared to the one I saw yesterday.

Same gate. Same farmer, this time the beautifully lettered sign says (they must have a fortune in sign painter's fees):

We know you mean well
But please do not disturb the cows in labor.

Hhahaaa, poor man, he's got his work set out for him, dealing with his farm AND his "helpers." I love that approach tho.

We know you mean well a ahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa And so we do.

Prof. Schama has us back to Rubens, again, giving us all the details of his death, the wording of his will and a statistical accounting of the number of monks and nuns who prayed for him on the occasion of his funeral. With Rubens disposed of, it would seem that after p454, we can now go on with Rembrandt.

One statement he made about Rubens, however, I don't understand, but I think it might be important: - In discussing Ruben's "Het Pelsken" the author says, "For the erudite it might even be taken to be a demonstration of Rubens's own conviction that antique statues should be used as exemplary models by painters only if they were, in the end, able to transform cold stone into flesh." I don't understand what the author is trying to say.

Ginny, about the sign. The result of your act of kindness in closing the gate is an example of "No good deed goes unpunished."

The fact that the sign, presumably created, or at least, commissioned by Mr. Farmer, was beautifully lettered is interesting. It could have been scrawled on a cedar shingle and leaned against the fence, or written on a sheet of paper and Scotch-taped to a post.

For some reason, I'm always impressed when someone given a mundane task turns the execution or outcome of that trivial job into something special that can be appreciated and even admired.

Rich

Love the stories !
One of my neighbors where I used to live was always putting up signs at the beginning of the road which was too close to her house. The road was originally a farm path for tractors and such from the main road (a right-of-way thru my neighbor's property). The property was split up and sold and two houses built. This road was the only way for the new people to get to their house. Well as time went on and to make a long story short...the road was graded and graveled and everytime vehicles went pass my neighbor's house it kicked up dust. They both ended up in court over this right-of-way. Those people up on the hill finally moved and the new people ended up making a deal and putting black-top down which seemed to make everyone happy....until they put up a road sign post with their name on it. My neighbor kept taking down the sign post and a couple days later someone put up a new one. She even put up a gate across the road and wouldn't you know they just drove around the gate in the field. By this time everyone went back to court.....and the story went on after I moved and for all I know it's still going on.

Just wanted to say that there is a new one being aired in Chicago channel 11 on Monday August 28 at 9pmCST. Can't get into the regular one to post. Colkot

Not here. We have something on Yellowstone National Park and extreme winters (should be some wonderful photography).

Finally, it rained all weekend and I was able to catch up on my R&R {Rembrandt and Rubens}. Speaking of TV, the good Prof Schama was on Book TV a few weeks ago. I didn't see the whole program, but what little I saw made me think he is certainly an odd duck.If anyone wants to watch/hear Prof S's words of wisdom, you can see him on the BookTV [C-Span] website. The program is called "After Words."

SueC, How do I get to the Schama interview on the C-Span website?

I went to the website and found only a reference to today's interview on "After Words."

"Monday, August 28 'After Words' on C-SPAN: Columnist Nicholas Basbanes interviewed by David Kipen On C-SPAN at 7pm ET "

I'm probably missing something obvious.

Rich

Click here for BOOK TV After Words: Simon Schama interview....then on Watch". Note it's in RAM format which requires Real Radio or something like that. I get a message that I'm unable to download the file ?

I think it's Real Player. I used to be able to watch using either Real Player or Windows Media Player I think they both came bundled with the computer.

It IS a Real Player file. It runs for a full 53 minutes, and I have to admit I did not bother to hear it right through. Schama talking (teaching ?) is a little like Schama writing.

The discussion starts by having one doubt his sanity, but as one gets into it, it is apparent that he HAS something to say,even if he takes an age to say it, and it mostly makes sense.

I love the discussion on "people trying to be helpful" and the description of our book as "R & R" - very neat !!

I'd better get back to my table and make some useful comment on the book.

Brian

suec ~ you're correct I meant to say Real Player.

Brian - well at least you were able to listen to part of Schama talking. I had wondered if he spoke as he wrote
What do you mean about the description of our book as "R & R" please ? Edit: Oh I know..."Rembrandt & Rubens"

Emma, Sue, and Brian, Thanks for getting me connected with the A-V interview with Prof. Schama. I also did not watch the entire piece, but I have to admit the Professor does have a way with words, although he is a little verbose. In my opinion he makes a good impression in a one-on-one interview.

He does not look much like the photo on the back of "Rembrandt's Eyes," but the book was published almost eight years ago, and I'm sure I look somewhat different than I did eight years ago, so who am I to judge?

I would imagine his classes at Columbia are very interesting. He has a sense of humor, and that goes a long way with me.

Rich

I apologize for being delayed but what great stuff here! SUEC!! You've returned with a super audio, how I wish I could hear it, is he nuts or is he not?!? I shall fool with my audio controls here and see what happens, so far nothing, but thank you so much for that!

We're all here but the leader (that's par) but you've carried on splendidly!

Rich was talking about trips to Amsterdam a while back and in my frantic search for a particular poster for my classes I came upon some souvenirs from my last trip to Amsterdam and I think you will be very interested, at least I hope so. These are huge and you may have to go get a cuppa coffee or something while they load.

First off, here from the RembrandtHuis is this precious little build your own Rembrandt Huis, I think I will try and we can make it our mascot here! Hahaha

Then I found this calendar ( the woman who does not own a calendar finally found one with a few months to go in the year!) hahaah of Keukenhof Gardens right out of Amsterdam. This calendar is sold at the Gardens and copyright to them, isn't it gorgeous?

THEN I found some of Memling's postcards I had bought at his museum at Brugge. Now I must admit I had never heard of Memling at the time but I do know who he is now, but look at his gorgeous stuff:

Here's Sint-Ursulaschrijn vodor 1489, it's a shrine to St. Ursula, and appears to be the Ursula Cycle. (This piece is gigantic, by the way, and the museum has the feeling of an old cloister).

Then here is THE Ursula Cycle, the only one I am familiar with is by Carpaccio where it dominates an entire room in a series of giant paintings, at the Accademia in Venice, and it's stunning but for some reason I am quite struck with the color in these two: (these are two paintings, sorry to combine them for faster scanning) on the left: the Reception of St. Ursula by the Pope and on the right, The Martyrdom of the Conspirators from the Shrine shown above of St. Ursula

I also have them drawing the bow on her but it's not as fine as that of Carpaggio, tho I'd like to compare them, with this group, maybe we can later on??

Now that we have some understanding OF art!

Then at the Rembrandt Museum I bought these after viewing the originals:

Three gabled cottages beside a road. Etching and drypoint state III. These are TINY, this one is 161 by 202 mm.

I like this, The Windmill 1641. Etching only state 145x 208 mm.

And finally the one I like best, but it's TINY so TINY in person, he must have had the eyes of an eagle:

Beggars receiving alms at the door of a house. 1648. Etching, dry point and burin state I (3) 163x 128 mm.

How big is that in inches? I could hardly see it no joke.

Thought you'd like to see these and onward now to page 465, I'll be back in the morning, let's discuss!

Ginny ~ oh what a cute little house to put together. If my son was here he could print that out and glue to a piece of plywood and cut it out before putting it together....would look super great in the Christmas village under my tree.
You're right...those calendar photos are fantastic photography.
We all know who Memling is now

Wonderful etching and drypoint state III of the three gabled cottages....just wonderful windmill too !
Emma
p.s.
128 millimeters is equal to 5.039370112 inches
163 millimeters is equal to 6.417322877 inches
I had to look it up

The etchings are very nice. Wish I could own them. There's probably not enough money in the world.

The shrine to St Ursula is beautiful. Somehow it looks Spanish to me. (Don't know why I say that, but it's the impression it makes on me.) Would also like to own that, being in an acquisitive mood today.

EmmaB, Could you have been a little more accurate in the mm/inch conversion? Only nine decimal places?

Just noticed that the page target has been moved up to p465, so back to the book.

Rich

http://www.a-r-t.com/rembrandt/ - - - you'll find them all here

Brian

Rich -

Brian - thanks for that link, now I just remembered something my son told me last week...he's being transferred to Raleigh NC to work....hmmmmm.
Just today while at the gas station, there were several loathsome beggar creatures asking everyone for money. It wouldn't have been so bad but they cursed at you if you said no. We were there around dinnertime and there's an Elizabeth House for the homeless right next door where they can get free meals twice a day. I'd never want to paint any of these street people...they're at the gas station and the mall next up every day until someone official tells them to move on.

Brian, Nice link for the etchings. When you see them on the wall of the museum you really get a feeling for how small they are.

Rich

Another view of Rembrandt's house on p459 almost identical to the toy house posted by Ginny in post #218.

Rembrandt started living there in the early 1600's, a long time ago, but the architecture is not unusual to what you might see in a lot of older neighborhoods in Eastern US cities (Boston, Philadelphia, Baltimore, Charleston, etc.)

A lot of YUPPIES and DINKS (Double Income, No Kids) are buying these urban antiques and beautifully restoring them. It's a good thing.

Rich

Rembrandt did not exactly fit the contemporary image of the starving artist. When he sued his wife's sister's family for libeling him saying Rembrandt had frittered their sister's legacy by flaunting and showing off, he boasted that he was too wealthy to squander away the fortune.

He later went bankrupt. Isn't there something in the Old Testament about pride goeth before the fall?

Rich

The description of the interior rooms in Rembrandt's house makes it sound like a museum. He was as much a collector of art and artifacts as Rubens. It's interesting that now that house IS a museum.

Rich

Does anyone have any pictures of the house Rembrandt later purchased knowing Rubens had lived there ?

Well, brought "Rembrandt's Eyes" to the library and gave it back to them. The book hasn't been in its natural habitat for a long time, so it's probably glad to be back with its old friends on the shelf in the Art Section of the Pima County Library.

I'm going away later this week for about a month, and because that huge book does not lend itself to portability, I will be taking a "Rembrandt hiatus".

When I get back, you all should be past p.#500, and heading for the home stretch in this great endeavor.

Rich

Rich - have a great time wherever you'll be...maybe you'll find some great art museums to look for some Rembrandts, Rubens et al.

Thank you, EmmaB. I'll be in Eastern Europe (Hungary, Czech Republic). I have no idea what kind of museums they have there, or what's contained in them, but that's part of the adventure.

Rich

Wow that is so wonderful, I want to go with you both, and in fact we're going to take a Dutch Treat Holiday here for a month ourselves, after all you've been steadfast, all of you, and we've been at this for more than a year and we deserve a break, too, let's all get our tickets and go with Rich!

Maybe when we return on October 12, with page 465, the Classics will have settled down, and I'll have more time, because I am determined to finish this book!! With your help!

Meanwhile Emma, if you'll send me your mailing address, I'll copy out that cute little house on card stock and you can assemble it, I think we all want one as part of our holiday decorations.

And this will allow us all (me included) to catch up and Rich's library to actually let somebody read that for a bit, but ONLY for a bit.

Suec, Brian, Rich, Emma, Joan K, you all can bring here any news during this next month of any Rembrandt showing (I just read there's a new one in Ohio opening in October) and/ or anything else you'd like to say.

See you on the 12th October with page 465!!

Aaarrghhhhh! It's time, me hearties, to sign up for the discussion of The Mutiny on Board H.M.S. Bounty! This book is Captain Bligh's own written account of what happened on the mutinous voyage and afterward when he and some of his crew were set adrift in shark-infested waters.

The discussion begins officially on November 1. There's plenty of grog, salt pork, and duff aboard ship waiting for you, so sign up here:

patwest, "---Mutiny on Board H.M.S. Bounty, The ~ William Bligh ~ Proposed for Nov. 1st" #, 11 Sep 2006 2:26 pm

Marni

hahaha Well here we are, me hearties, it's the 12th and we're Crossing the Threshold of Abundance. Of course we start with Rubens but I really like this chapter and I really like that poor Rembrandt, like a lot of Lottery winners, "stated without boasting that he and his wife were richly and superabundantly endowed, (for which the Almighty can never be enough thanked.")

I like this chapter and I loved the house, what are your own thoughts on reading this, oh the descriptions so like it today, the hallway "full of pictures," generally "cabinet : paintings, animals, yes, I must get out the photos, just like but that was one of my biggest surprises there, all the art of others on the walls.

Now here Schama really shines because even if you have NOT been there, once you read this, you may as well have. And the STAIRS!! The angle and steepness, good GRIEF, they must have had the legs of mountain goats!

Oh and the "kunstcaemer!" Let me go find my photos!! YES!!

Ollie ollie oxen freeeeee, everybody meet at Rembrandt's, we're movin' on up!

Reporting for duty.

Tuesday I went to the library (Would have gone Monday but it was closed for the Columbus day holiday), and filed a request for "Rembrandt's Eyes." Today, there was a message on my phone recorder advising me (three times in English, and three times in Spanish) that my book is in. So the timing is perfect.

See you all in the Threshold of Abundance.

Rich

Hola, Rich and tell us all about your trip, I am ready for abundance and I think the library owes you a prize, bilingually or not and I hear Brain is strapping on the skates and taking to the ice again. One thing you can say for us here, we're varied and ....varied! hahahaaa

Abundantly varied!

Reporting for duty! Now I have to go read -- I'm way behind. But glad to be getting back to Rembrandt. How have you all been?

- - - and also reporting back.

I just went back to remind myself what went on before our holiday.
The previous pages outlined the things that Rembrandt collected as a worthy painter,
oddities from all over the world, birds, bones etc., but very few books.

He vied with the wealthy art patrons in Amsterdam for the works of his contemporary
painters and for copies of past masters, for example Titian, to feel that he had
at least as important a collection as Rubens had amassed.

Schama suggests that Rembrandt may have had more books, but had sold them
either to pay his debts or to have some cash for other purchases.

The ten pages from 465 to 475 are mostly concerned with the paintings which R.
did in 1640, and are full of inciteful and understanding descriptions by Schama.

Ginny, I loved your joke about curling on skates. It's all I can do to stand up in my
curling boots without having to lace up skates. We have started our season, and I
am on the ice again early tomorrow morning.

It's good to be back

Hello everyone !
Oh my gosh, I haven't been reading Rembrandt's Eyes

I'll be glad to get back to it though.

Ginny ~ I love seeing the photos you post for us.
Emma

OK, since you asked, Ginny, a couple of stories from my trip to Hungary, the Czech Republic and Austria.

We started out in Budapest, and right away I have to apologise to my fellow Rembrandteers. The Budapest Museum of Fine Arts was featuring an exhibition of most of Rembrandt's etchings and some of his drawings. I did not get to it (blush). My wife had seen that same exhibit a few years earlier in Boston, and there were so many other things we wanted to see and do in the short time we were in that city.

You probably all read about the "riots" going on in Budapest at the time. Most of the activity took place around the Parliament Building. We were sternly warned not to go near the Parliament Building. So, naturally, on the first day we bought subway tickets and rode under the Danube from the Buda to the Pest side and got off at the Parliament building. It was during the daytime and there was not much going on. There were hundreds of police all around the building in riot gear, but no "rioters" to be seen.

It seems that all the action is at night. At night thousands of people come in busses from all over the country, wave flags, sing patriotic songs and listen to speeches. There is very little "rioting." Hooligans are attracted to this type of event, and see it as an opportunity to stir up trouble. If one of this small minority starts a fire in a trash can, CNN is there taking close-up video shots of the fire, and of the police apprehending the miscreants. The pictures go out all over the world while the on-the-spot reporter breathlessly narrates how civil unrest like this is spreading through the city. Not true, just a block away people are still waiting in line for a seat at a table in one of the many Budapest sidewalk cafes, so they can sip the wonderful Turkish coffee they serve and watch the world go by.

I could go on and on about Budapest and the magnificent old city of Prague, but I want to tell you this story about an experience we had in Vienna. Never having been in Vienna before, and hearing so much about the world famous Sacher Torts that originated there, we were determined to experience that pastry where it was invented, the elegant Sacher Hotel, right next to the Vienna Opera House.

So, the first night there, we made a reservation for two at the Grand Dining Room in the Sacher Hotel. (I have to digress a little here, before you get the wrong impression. We made up for this extravagance by dining on bratwurst and sauerkraut on a crusty roll and a diet Coke sold by a street vender for the next couple of nights.)

Anyway, back to the Grand Dining Room at the Hotel Sacher. The service and food were what you would expect of such a prestigious establishment. Each course was delivered by one of an army of uniformed waiters who placed the plate of whatever in front of you, stood at attention (I listened attentively for the clicking of heels but none occurred), smiled slightly, nodded and turned to go to the kitchen for whatever would be coming for the next course.

The appetizers and entrees were all pre game warm-up for us, however. (On second thought, a sports analogy would not be appropriate for the venue:- The appetizers and entrees were but an OVERTURE for us). We were there for the Sacher Torte!

Well, this story is getting too long, so I'll get to the bottom line:- It was a great disappointment. It was chocolate cake! Dry chocolate cake, at that, with a chocolate frosting and a microscopically thin layer of apricot preserves in the middle. Entermans makes better cakes. If I were going to make a Sacher Torte, I would make the cake very moist, apply a thick layer of fudge frosting, and fill it with at least a quarter inch of apricot preserves. But what else would you expect from a peasant imposter in Vienna, the Mecca of confectionery excellence.

Rich

Ah Rich, that is so wonderful and I was all agog with the Sacher hotel and shared vicariously in your disappointment. I remember the first real German pretzel I had too, with mayonnaise, I much prefer the Dutch.

And isn't it always the way with riots and how they are reported? We were in the middle of one in Athens in March, you'd have thought the world had come to an end, we never saw it at all.

Loved those stories! I must say tho that the best Belgian Waffle I ever ate was in Amsterdam at the Kukenhof Gardens! hjahahaa

But tell us MORE!

Welcome back, Brian and EmmaBarb!! It IS good to be back and thank you Brian for that look at what the previous 10 pages or so are about!

Now we're in the house itself and I hope the Rembrandt museum will forgive me, this is from THEIR book showing the floors of the house described in our book:

And they have blocked out here the main entrance salon which I was quite surprised to see was totally covered as Schama states with the paintings of others. The Rembrandt House Museum book says of this room (surely they won't mind us using this as we're for educational purposes here and have given attribution)

is really the entrance and a fancy one it was too, the finest materials, to Rembrandt's Shop and that the patrons would be invited in and sit on one of what the inventory describes as "four Spanish chairs with leather, two ditto with black seats, a deal wood dias." A dias is explained as something like a platform by the window, from which the sitter could view the street, and apparently was common in the 17th century.

As I said the

steps are tremendously steep and the house being on so many levels, you really needed the legs of a mountain goat.

On page 462 Schama talks about an Olympus of Junk and takes about the Roman Emperors on page 464 and here they are:

and on the right the rest of them:

and you can see Laocoon on the bottom right which Schama also talks about, I am thinking he's actually describing the house as it exists today and using the inventory to flesh it out. He mentions the sea shells as being a particular interest and they are all over the place, sorry for this blurry shot of one of them:

So Rembrandt in these pages is busy in a dizzying bit of acquisition, a new house, huge huge collections of the art of others, "50 lots of prints, drawings, and shells were knocked down to Rembrandt," at auction (page 464) and it would seem our Rembrandt has become a Man of Property!!

I love this section, what struck YOU?

I've been reading about Rembrandt's collections. Love all those Roman Emperors don't you. Am I imagining or was there a fire that destroyed most of the books ? At the end of a war ?
I was going through the books (in my mind) I'd want to keep if I had to get rid of all but say fifteen. Very difficult decision to make.

I don't want a pretzel with mayo on it....actually I prefer those real German pretzels plain and just out of the oven...yummmm.

Ginny ~ thank you so much for posting those images of the house. Were they the front steps or the back. Back being for the servants and such. Edit: after looking at your image it appears to be only one stairway. I love those big seashells. I've seen those made into sink bowls.
Emma

Looks like that is the only stairway. Fire codes would preclude that now. Ginny, you would know. You were there.

When I was growing up, my parents used heavy sea shells for door stoppers. The picture of the shell on the floor, rather than on the table brought back that almost forgotton memory.

EmmaB, Did you assemble your cardboard model of the Rembrandt House?

Rich

Although we all seem to agree that the author is a bit verbose, he does have a way with words. His description of Titian's "Portrait of a Gentleman" defines the subject's pose perfectly when he tells us, "Aristo also seemed to embody another important element in genteel behavior; sympathetic approachability qualified by polite restraint." That's exactly the feeling I get about the subject as I look at the painting.

Rembrandt's self portrait (p468) which is supposed to be inspired by the Titian gets more real to me when Prof. Schama points out the fine line of white paint extending from the corner of the right eye beyond the bridge of the nose. That simple brush stroke does give the clear impression that the subject (Rembrandt) was "perspiring lightly in his heavy clothes."

Rich

Rich - oh gosh I'd forgotten all about that and don't remember what I did with it. Where do I find it again ?

When I was in boarding school as a young child we had front stairs that were only for guests and on Sunday. As soon as you opened the double doors at the front entrance you saw those pretty stairs. The rest of the time we had to use the back narrow stairs. Sometimes when noone was looking I'd take a blanket and slide down the railing on the pretty highly-polished front steps.

I'm so glad we're reading about paintings now. That self-portrait of Rembrandt with the puffed sleeve (after Rubens died) is elegant. The one where he had the gold chain across his chest and gold in his hat.
Click here for Rembrandt's portraits...worthy of a look around.
Emma

Hello everyone, it's good be back.

I like Rembrandt's portraits and Schama's comments are helpful. To me, the clothes are almost as interesting as the subjects. R's treatment of the fabric and the detail is exquisite. I imagine clothes were completely handmade during Rembrandt's time and must have been very expensive [and uncomfortable].

Welcome back, Everybody, we lack Joan K and we'll be all here, that's amazing when you consider how long we've been at this! hahaha

Yes I like the way we're talking about the paintings too but the ghost of Rubens still is floating about. It's almost as if either Schama OR Rembrandt can't let it go and I was dismayed to see yet another "competitor" enter the field here, I am not sure if this is a true representation of how Rembrandt felt or Dr. Shama. At any rate it's interesting. Why can't Rembrandt, of all people, stand ALONE? Why all this constant comparison?

I so agree on the self portrait on page 468 and the streak of white, DOESN'T he look as if he's sweating, tho! Amazing to see, amazing what a little bit of white paint can do.

I also liked the statement tho it made me sort of afraid for some reason on page 471, "it makes the sitter appear caught on the verge bewteen his private and public self...." That's kind of scary, do we acknowledge that there is always a private and public self?

??

And that RUFF on Alijdt Adrianensdr, good heavens!

I also thought this was interesting on page 476:

None of his contemporaries came close to Rembrandt's instinctive ability to inject drama into simplicty and still manage not to compromise the integrity of the subject.

What does THAT mean for a portraitist? I note the "crows feet" mentioned in Doomer's face, what is he saying here?

Those little bits of white paint are highlights...usually pure white...a last touch to bring something forward or hightlight it.

Doomer was the man who owned the framing shop Rembrandt used wasn't he ?
I would use crows feet to show it's an elderly person or one who stayed in the sun too long or.....tired or sad maybe. I'm getting crows feet and don't like it at all

Anyone going to the SeniorNet 20th Anniversary Conference in Arlington VA ... do have a great time.

What kind of shoes do you buy when you get crow's feet?

Rich

Rich - I'll never tell

hahaha Am off in the morning to the SN 20th Anniversary Conference where the Books and the Classics Project will be presented, and I am looking for you all to hold the fort! I hope today to...let's move ahead 10 pages, as we're enjoying these descriptions of the paintings, are you up for that?

I'll change the heading, let's go forward 10 pages this week, what are your thoughts on these next 10? Can you believe we're nearing page 500? Of an art history book? In our own inimitable style? Nothing Like it in the World!

Ginny, Good luck, and have a great time at the SeniorNet 20th Anniversary conference.

Rich

EmmaB, I prefer the expression "laugh lines" over "crows feet." It's all semantics, isn't it?

We all have mental images of what others in SeniorNet look like. My mental image of EmmaB is now the bright but impertinent little moppet who used to slide down the front staircase bannister when the headmistress wasn't looking.

Rich

I like Rembrandt's "Portrait of Cornelis Claesz Anzlo and His Wife." (p478). Although it is supposed to be a portrait of those two people, they only occupy the right half of the painting. The entire left half is made up of the books, and candles, and oriental rug on the table supporting them. Who would have thought of subordinating the people to inanimate objects in a portrait?

More to the same point, the portrait of Anzlo, alone (p477) shows a nail sticking out of the bare wall behind him. Presumably it held the plaque that can be sitting on the floor behind him, leaning against the wall. If you look closely at the unhung plaque, it looks like it says "Rembrandt 1641."

What are the nail and the unhung plaque doing in a portrait of an important person?

Rich

I may not feel much like reading or anything for that matter this next week. I have a technician coming early Monday morning to give me an estimate on replacing the main water line from the underground connection to my house, through the basement floor and to the water meter inside. Hopefully they will be able to give me some temporary water and start digging asap. I'm not at all happy about this

Rich - I could tell more stories of my younger days in an all girls boarding school...some not so funny. Most of my adventures were when all the other girls went home or somewhere and I was left there by myself. Oh well...that's another story.

Oh there was a few sentences about the nail and the unhung frame turned to the wall. I forget what page ?

I would guess it wasn't until the camera came into being that people were positioned in the middle of the picture. Does anyone know about this ?

Emma

EmmaB, Hope they hooked water to your house. I can't imagine not having water. Once, when I lived in rural Connecticut, there was a snow and ice storm and we lost all services, including water, for several days. I remember bringing buckets full of snow into the house to melt for cooking in the fireplace, rudimentary cleaning, and refilling the toilet reservoirs. We all lived around the fireplace. Our kids still remember it as a great adventure. Maybe it was, but it didn't seem like it at the time.

Ginny, How was the SeniorNet conference?

Rich

Rich - thanks, the man did come and hook me up with some temporary water. He ran my garden hose from the downstairs neighbor's outside faucet to my outside faucet and back-lashed (?) it into my house line. I will compensate the nice lady for the water I use 'til they get here to pull the main water line and replace it with a new one (hopefully Monday Oct 30).
I was never much on camping or roughing it mainly because of having clean fresh water to drink and to shower. I now am of the believe that water is more valuable to the human race than anything else in the world ! The fact we're spending lots of money on bottled water is proof.

Ginny ~ I really enjoyed your report on the SenorNet Conference. It's strange that the SeniorNet Learning Centers do not participate in our online discussions. The first I heard of SeniorNet was an Internet class I attended at a Senior Center where we checked it out at the end of the class. Loved the pictures of you also.

Emma

Ginny, Forget my inquiry on how the SeniorNet Conference went. EmmaB's comment in #260 told me that somewhere in SeniorNet there is a report from you. I found it under "SeniorNet's 20th Anniversary and Conference"...Sounds like you had a fun time and some serious work got done as well.

Rich

Thank you both, you're very kind, we're HOT here in the vineyard today, people trying to beat the rain so I hope to get my reading done while waiting for them to come down. I kind of like this Fall Reading in the Vineyard, I tend to remember what I've read and the pleasure it is reading it under the gorgeous foliage, just a splendid if somewhat cold day here.

Right back at you in a minute.

I've done two things this morning, I've removed the dates which make us look out of touch here, we're not, and I've upped the pages to 496, we're almost to 500!!

But before we leave I would like to comment on page 479 and the "commanding position" Schama speaks of Anslo having in the painting on 478. He notes that Anslo has almost a Moses like position and one scholar has noted he is "actually in the process of administering a "fratnernal admonition" to his wife.

What a hoot. What did YOU see in that? Did you see a towering figure "of authority, communicated through Scripture?" Why in the world would anybody want to have their portrait painted lecturing their wife? Loved the bit about the knotted hands. I don't think the hands have anything to do with the difficulty of receiving the Word but rather the messenger bringing it.

I don't see Moses on the mount here, is it 2006 that's the problem? hashahaa

He's not looking at her. Don't envy her, do you?

Interesting on pages 486 and 487 that patrons demanded their money back for the "obscured, imperfect or partial likenesses." Schama says that is spurious, and a myth. I had never heard it, had you?

But it gives Schama to introduce more conflict in the form of criticism of Rembrandt's art. I guess that idea is somewhat new to us, too, as we think of him as always lauded?

At LAST we get to the Night Watch! What did you think of this painting AND the descriptions and explanations of it on pages 490-191, etc! FINALLY!!

The thought just crossed my mind that we have a whole extra hour to read today

Ginny ~ we've had rain and strong winds here Friday and Saturday. Looks like your trip to D.C. was perfect timing.

Today an artist is smart to ask for at least half of the commission before even starting the painting. Then if the patron doesn't like it as least you have something to show for your work. One reason I will never do a portrait of anyone is most people don't like they way they look. Some want to be thinner, taller, in fancy clothes and wearing borrowed jewelry.

Ginny, You caught something in the painting of Anslo and his wife (p478) that the author missed! The author says he was looking directly at his wife. Like you, I see him looking past her, possibly searching his mind for the right words to make the theological concept he wants to convey so simple that even a wife could understand.

A later scholar, found symbolism in the candle snuffer on the table. I find symbolism in the millstone collar she wears around her neck.

Rich

Oh good point on the collar! I missed that.

No he's not looking at her, he's listening to his own voice, I think Rembrandt caught that very well and she's trying to be obedient and listen (more power to her) but it's telling, what a hoot.

Do you think he ever realized how posterity would view him? Of course I'm an untutored mind but that's what I see there.

Emma, I'm glad we missed it then, we had a beautiful day Sunday and Friday night as well.

She's not looking at him, either, actually. Neither one is looking at the other.

Are there paintings where people are looking at each other? Rembrandt's Eyes might indicate more than we think here. I think I'll start watching for who they are looking AT in these paintings.

I see impatience in her, especially with her hands...she's wanting to be a good wife but she's thinking "hurry and get on with it, I have better things to do".

In "The Night Watch" -- for the life of me I cannot find Rembrandt peering out from behind one of the soldiers. I see the cutout a few pages along but it doesn't match up.

EmmaBarb - - - Rembrandt can be found over the left shoulder of the fellow holding the flag.

He has painted himself with a bulbous nose and a flat painter's cap. He is looking to the right.

I posted a detail of the Night Watch way back in Post #778 on February 8th.
I note with a degree of shame, that I was posting more frequently back then

Brian.

Brian - I remember we did discuss this painting extensively earlier on. The cutout in the book is not the same...has me confused.

A friend has a (small) print of the night watch. Wanting to show off, I proudly told her that R painted himself in the picture -- and then absolutely couldn't find him. Sigh.

Joan, That's funny.

Rich

Brian, I remember when you pointed that out to us, and I actually found Rembrandt after your explanation, but I had forgotten. Thanks for coming back on that, I found him again.

Rich

Still haven't gotten to the "Night Watch" story in the text. (I did peek ahead to find the small Rembrandt self-portrait hidden in the picture- Thanks again, Brian.) I'm in the part about the local non-governmental militias and how they approached both Rubens and Rembrandt to have themselves painted as a group.

It seems that independent militias were important in those days. I wonder if they were the 17th century equivalent of the militias that we see in third world countries, today? Iraq seems to have a militia loyal to each important mullah (sunni and shiite).

Rich

After slogging through several pages of paintings of Dutch militias leading up to the "Night Watch," I reminded myself that the Second Amendment to the US Constitution addresses militias.

The second amendment to the US Constitution:- "A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed."

Googling about in surfland, I discovered that no one knows for sure exactly what that sentence means. I came up with web pages from people and organizations who are sure they know what it means, but there are at least as many others who hold a totally opposite opinion as to its interpretation.

It looks to me like two distinctly separate thoughts are being expressed in one sentence.

Whatever, militias were important in Dutch society at the time of Rembrandt as they apparently were, more than 100 years later, when the American constitution was framed.

When James Madison, et al wrote the word "militia" in the constitution, were they visualizing men in velvet and gold clothing with plumed hats standing around displaying their guns and jeweled swords, waving colorful banners as we see in "Night Watch," or did they have something else in mind?

I don't know.

Rich

I thought it was interesting they were civilian soldiers and could dress in any uniform of their choosing and at their own expense.

Emma

I guess one of the things that made "Night Watch" such a departure was its initial impression of disorganization. Prof. Schama called it "mad commotion."

Rich

Just getting into the reading on "Night Watch," and finding so much to look at in the painting. The crossed pikes in the upper right of the painting we are told form a Saint Andrews Cross, the patron saint and symbol of Amsterdam. (The crossed pikes are better seen in the Gerrit Lundens copy on p497.)

Click here to see the current flag of Amsterdam with the three crosses.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amsterdam

Rich

Rich - thanks for that link to St. Andrew's Cross. (My oldest grandson's middle name is Andrew.)
As I've said before, the photos of paintings are very poor quality in my book.

EmmaB, If your book does not have good graphics, you're missing a lot. Can you order a hardbound copy through your local library? They're all connected, and it's amazing what a large resource of books are available for you to draw on. I do that and just keep renewing it on line. They'll let you do that as long as someone else doesn't order it. That's never happened to me for this book.

You know, only as far as composition is concerned, I prefer the copy of "Night Watch" done by Gerrit Lundens (p497). Apparently Lundens copied Rembrandt's painting before it was "cropped" so it could fit in the spot where his patrons wanted it to hang. The cropped version is too claustrophobic for me.

Rich

I have so enjoyed your conversations here from day to day on the nature of a militia, our own Constitution's most heatedly debated amendment, perhaps and the sense Schama gives this of a stage show, with the different characters lit up. I was somewhat taken aback by his diatribe on the only child in the middle of page 494, "and no platoon of this kind would ever be complete without the impulsive rah-rah bachelor, perhaps an only child, pampered at home, more mouth and brawn..." etc. what in the WORLD was that? hhahaha

I'm still reading, but am either not to the little girl in white or I missed it. We were told when we were there it's not called The Night Watch at all?

I found the small partial face of Rembrandt in this Night Watch"...and I don't understand the idea behind the young girl in white. I would not have been happy at all if someone brutally cut one of my paintings so it could fit through the door.

I'm hoping when the plumbing contractor comes tomorrow to fill in a big hole in the front yard and patch the small hole in the basement with concrete that I'll be rid of them for good. I've been dealing with these people since October 19th.
Wish me luck !

Good luck, Emma, I also have a week with repair men of all kinds and possibly a new grandbaby tomorrow so it's nice to have something to focus on, but it IS difficult.

The "railing" on the left which I can't see, as we've noted leading up to the perspective of the door they are coming thru would have added a lot I would think. I am somewhat wondering what it IS, please excuse my ignorance, that makes THIS painting the BEST of the BEST?

I mean Schama here goes into paroxysms of ecstasy: "it is both radial and axial, centrifugal and centipetal." (page 496). Huh?

And I stared beady eyed in vain for the Cross of St Andrew only to see it now described as "the pattern of pikes in the right background of the painting."

I don't see that? I see an X of pikes with a third running in front of it and nothing like what's being described. Is this Schama or is this recognized art criticism? I hate to be a Phillistine but I am beginning to see why there are so many.

I have SEEN this painting in person.

The drummer "hired for the day," what on earth difference does it make, is this supposed to be a photograph of an actual event? Schama is losing me here?

Help?

I'm going to go see if I can find Thomas Hovings book on art for dummies and see if he talks about it!

Celebrate page 500 ! I've put a nice variety of bubbly on ice to get ready. So, do we have 202 pages left ?

Ginny ~ oh how wonderful...a new grandbaby ! Congratulations when the little blessing gets here.

I certainly would not say THIS painting is the best of Rembrandt. Maybe we'd have to see the entire original painting before it was chopped up.
I think this one coming up of his wife holding a flower is special. I prefer the softer side of Rembrandt.
Emma

I somewhere have some commentary on this thing, I think what really sticks out is the little girl when you see it in person and then the guy in yellow on the right Schama keeps going on about. I mean these are very dark paintings and the light really jumps out at you. We ARE nearing page 500, it's unbelievable, let's march on 10 more pages and see if he explains anything else. I can't find the Hoving book but I know I have it.

on the grandbaby ETA tomorrow.

OK, I'm there. Page 500! I won't open my champagne bottle 'till our Discussion Leader gives the word, and we're all (literally) on the same page.

I agree that the reading on "Night Watch" did not meet the promise of this famous painting. It seems that the essense of "Night Watch" got lost in the author's flourishes of rhetoric.

What I did get from the reading is that the painting represented a departure from convention in a number of areas. One is that the figure in the extreme foreground is represented more darkly than the figure behind him; the opposite of what was taught at the time. Also the figures in the center foreground were drawn with heavier brush strokes than those in the background, sometimes with the background detail more smoothly portrayed than the foreground. Finally, the composition, lighting, and brush strokes gave the painting a three dimensional appearance that foreshadowed what the author calls modernism.

I guess I did learn something from the reading after all!

The fact that the painting occupied two pages, with some of the important detail ending up in the seam of the stiffly bound book did not help in the viewing and relating of the text to the painting.

And, of course, an exhaustive discussion of a major Rembrandt work by the author would not be complete without a reference to Rubens. The ghost of Peter Paul Rubens still haunts these pages.

Now, I'll just go off and select an appropriate champagne glass.

Rich

hahahaha Rich, go for it Celebrate 500!!

You HAVE gotten a lot out of your reading and I LOVED the no description of Rembrandt would be complete without a mention of Rubens! hahahaha

I still don't understand the girl in white! We've only 202 pages to go! That's nothing! Celebrate, the end is in sight and what do you want to bet, I'll bet you that Rubens is somewhere near the end?!? BET YOU!

I l o v e t h a t f o n t ! !

This is the site where you keep learning.

Brian

hahaah Isn't that cute? a hhahaaa Today we leap ahead to 500, I can't believe we're this far!

It's been a trip...even though we lost a few along the way.

Ginny ~ was that new grandbaby born on my birthday ? (11/13)

"usufruct" (yu z frukt) ? I still don't know how to pronounce it
and I have nothing in common with usufruct. Help !

Happy Birthday, EmmaB.

Usufruct: Noun. Roman Law. The right to enjoy the use and advantages of another's property short of the destruction or waste of its substance. (The New Oxford American Dictionary, 2001)

From Latin "usufructus" (use and enjoyment).

Had to look it up. I didn't have a clue.

Rich

You haven't lost me -- I'm here, just way behind in the reading.

Happy Birthday, EmmaB. My birthday is 11/13 too.

JoanK, I'm way behind also.

Joan and Sue,

You're both grounded. No more TV or telephone for you two until you get your homework done.

Happy birthday, Sue

Rich

Just read the part about Rembrandt's wife dying from TB. For all Rembrandt's wealth and success, she was buried with a very simple (Calvinist?) ceremony. There was no epitaph. Then Rembrandt went home and painted a portrait of her dressed out in the finest jewels and furs. I suppose the author is telling us that the portrait was her epitaph.

Rich

I am not sure to which girl you are referring , Ginny. If you mean the girl in the Night Watch,
mentioned on page 498 - - - "the brilliantly lit little girl, an inverted chicken suspended from her waist" - - -
I get the feeling that her presence is to symbolize strength and victory for the militia. Her image
is given extra light to counterbalance that the flashy outfit of Banning Cocq's lieutenant.

I have to agree with Rich, that the Night Watch has been irreparably damaged by "cutting off a section
on the left side of the painting to fit into the space available". It has lost it's balance.
I, too, have not been lost along the way.

Brian.

suec ~ Happy Birthday ! It's funny I was at the dentist today and the receptionist said it was her birthday too on 11/13.

I'm reading a bit more now (I hope) my water problem is behind me.
It seems Rembrandt took his child's nurse to bed with him the night he buried his wife. Then he painted the fine portrait of his dead wife in finery.
That cartoon-ish drawing is really in bad taste (if you ask me). Done after what's his name wouldn't pay him for a portrait he painted because the man didn't like the way he looked. It was then Rembrandt stopped painting portraits for commission and also got rid of depicting metals in his paintings.

Emma

Hail hail, the gang is all here!!! Happy Birthday, EmmaBarb and Suec, I looked half of yesterday for a suitable graphic and can't find my favorite birthday wishes thing, so Happy Happy Birthday, Emma Barb and Happy Happy Birthday, Suec

and many many more to you both!! ParTAY time!

I confess I am not up on the last 10 pages but it sounds from what you all have said that will be the most exciting thing going on today here, so will get right on it this weekend. He took the maid to bed? Huh? Must reading I can see that.

How does a child with an inverted chicken symbolize that, Brian? haahha How's the curling going?

Thanks Ginny. You either go to bed very late or get up very early,

Wow, I completely missed the thing with the maid! I'll have to go back and read more carefully.

Rich

Suec, We in the midwest and on the east coast are three hours ahead of the west coast but even 5:45 is early for some.

On page 499 ( of my hardcover book ) it says, and I quote - - - "the klaauw, or raptors talon, which appeared on their drinking horns and ceremonial coats of arms, transferred here into a chickens foot."

In these pages Schama really has got to the meat of Rembrandt's intentions, and I think, he has done a wonderful job. I am almost inclined to forgive him for his earlier prolix.

As to the curling - - - I strained (?) my back a couple of days ago foolishly clearing snow, and as a result, I am here at my computer, with my book on it's special table, instead of being out on the curling rink today. I hope that the guys will get by without me, but at the same time, I hope that they will miss me. If you don't want to be talked about don't be the first to leave the party!! Last week another member of our rink was unable to curl, and it was not long before one of us said "Ted WHO?", when his replacement made a fine shot. I don't want to hear - - - "Brian WHO?". I'll be back curling on Monday for sure.

Meantime, I shall improve the shining hour and get fully up to date with Schama.

Brian

Wow ! Ginny, thank you so much

Brian - so sorry you strained your back....clearing snow at that. I'm sure your curling team mates miss you. Best wishes for a speedy recovery.

I came home this afternoon (after having my car in for service and trying to do some Christmas shopping) to water leaking from the ceiling in the dining room. Quickly I shut off the main valves then called my plumber. He said he's really backed up right now and to call another plumber I pleaded a bit and told him he was just here a couple weeks ago to fix a leak I had in the basement. He remembered, then said he'd try to send someone out Monday. Keep your fingers crossed for me that they can fix it without having to tear the ceiling town. I've about had it with water problems. Reading Rembrandt is one thing that helps me to get my mind on something else.

not to worry, Brian, with your shining hour, they can't do without you, I know that! hahaha Hopefully you are feeling tip top in a few days!

Me, too, EmmaBarb, our floor apparently has decided in one of the bedrooms to rot the huge joists which underpin the house, I have a feeling it's going to be some kind of a fun time here for a while, but as you say, it's nice to have something to get your mind off it, off I go to make it to page 500!

Ginny ~ oh dear, that sounds serious. I'll bet the houses were better built in Rembrandt's day.

Brian - hope you're feeling better.

I've passed p. 500!! I thought I was caught up, but haven't gotten to the maid yet. Shame on him.

Happy birthday, Emma and Suec. Enjoy! Get better, Brian. Let us know how your team does.

I've had plumbers in the house, too. They swear they've fixed the leaks, but I'm not sure I believe them. This builder is famous for bad plumbing.

I'm hoping R will concentrate more on portraits now. That is where I really love him. His faces really come alive.

Emma, it appears it's only the tip of the iceberg, unfortunately.

me too, Joan, I thought I was caught up and I'm not but I am slowly of all times of the year, catching up. I did find not only the Kenneth Clark Civilization which is absolutely FULL of Rembrandt, but also Art for Dummies by Thomas Hoving and I thought I'd start with his:

From the Section the Ten Most Interesting Artists and Why:

I have always believed that the behavior, personality and actions of artists have little to do with the beauty of their creations. Caravaggio is an emblem to it; so is Rembrandt.

He was a petty crook, a grifter, a skirt-chaser, and a liar both others and to himself. He stole from his wife's inheritance to line his pockets and to carry out a series of small –time scams, all of which are completely at odds with the majesty of his images.

His self-portraits show us a tragic lump of aging flesh, reddened by excess, but a lump with sad and sympathetic eyes, a facial expression of great poignancy, and a demeanor of the heights of human dignity. He was no doubt acting, putting on con, but he did it well, and his images are unforgettable.

His religious works, -especially the crucifixions and the two passion etching series—would make it seem that Rembrandt was a profoundly devout man. From what we know, this seems unlikely.

It simply doesn't matter that a grifter and part-time con artist just happens to be on of the three giants of art. And similarly it doesn't mean much that a contemporary artist is not the most upstanding example of humanity around.

Interesting, huh? And there's more.

He doesn't talk about the Night Watch * but he does have a photo of it called The Day Watch??!!??* but he does Return of the Prodigal Son. In a section called The Greatest Works of Western Civilization, he says: (and he's talking about a different one than we saw earlier, not the old man coming to the door but the son kneeling before the old man).

Who's the finest painter of all time? Leonardo, Piero della Francesac, Rubens, Velazquez, Picasso, Rembrandt? Any one or all depending upon the work, I supposed. But if I were to have to select one, it would be the brooding, painterly genius Rembrandt van Rijn. If I were given a six by six inch fragment taken from any one of his late works, I would feel fortunate, for in only inches, Rembrandt painted the cosmos Or at least that's how his work strikes me.

It's hard to choose my favorite Rembrandt, but the Return of the Prodigal Son in the Hermitage of St. Petersburg has to be the one. The painting is high drama and at the same time the very epitome of Christian belief in its portrayal of compassion and forgiveness. Many scholars believe it's unfinished, but I'm not sure of that, for it looks virtually polished to me. It's cold—the elderly patriarch is wearing a heavy shawl, -- and I sense that the shaven (probably from prison and lice) prodigal is shivering, although he's probably putting on an act. But it doesn't matter because all is—and should be—forgiven.

And earlier in a section called Baroque he says of Rembrandt:

The prince of painters of the Dutch Golden Age is Rembrandt van Rijn. Upon the head of this supremely gifted artist—and wholly disreputable man—not enough praise can be heaped. Yes, he stole his first wife's dowry and yes, he cheated on his taxes and seldom paid his bills and died a pauper, yet his twisted personality and vile actions only enhanced his work (which seems always to be the case with art geniuses). There has never been an oil painter like him and never will be.

Interesting!! Maybe this is a good time to take up this sort of opinion of the dichotomy of the artist and his art, as we're about to see him, perhaps, in a not so flattering light?!?

Those words do give us another facet of Rembrandt's make-up that we are not yet seeing quite so clearly in our own book.

You don't have to like the man to appreciate his art, however. What comes to mind immediately is Frank McCourt. I think the consensus in your discussion group for "Teacher Man," Ginny, was that Mc Court was not necessarily a hero one would look up to, but he could tell a heck of an entertaining story.

Rich

EmmaB, Today's Monday. Did the plumber come out and fix the leak that's causing the water to drip from your dining room ceiling? What did you do in the meantime?

Joan, Leaks in your home, too?

Ginny, Issues with floor joists?

Brian, Bad back, and no curling?

And I've been under the weather for the last few days.

What's going on here?

Rich

Do you think Rembrandt is putting a curse on us for not being diligent enough reading about him?

I don't think we're going to get this picture of Rembrandt from Schama. He is too admiring. He never gives us R the Saint, but not R of vile actions either, just one who was very self-involved and liked money and the things it could buy. Interesting how two people can see a man so differently.

How can Thomas Hoving say such things when he never even met the man (Rembrandt). I think Hoving is jealous that he can't paint like that. But then he goes on to praise the man...so what's up with that ?

Rich - I'm so sorry your back is still hurting. How did your team mates do ?
The plumber did come today and fixed the pinhole leak in a main feeder line. However, I do have about 1-1/2 ft. hole in the dining room ceiling (which is under the 2nd fl. bathroom). I will hold off on a drywall patch (actually there is also one in the basement from the previous leak...which makes two) until I'm sure there are no more leaks.

Finally, if only briefly, we get to some of Rembrandt's landscapes.

Emma

EmmaB, I think it's Brian's back we're worried about, but thank you for the concern.

Looking forward to learning about Rembrandt's landscapes.

Rich

It's a Rembrandt Curse! hahaha

The interesting thing about Hoving if you've had any connection with him is his honesty regardless of the circumstances. If he says it, it's probably true. That gives us another look, despite this meticulous business of Schama, I am anxious to see what Lord Kenneth Clark makes of Rembrandt.

Hoving is the former Director of the Metropolitan Museum of Art and the person who brought the huge Temple of Dendur there as well as discovered the Bury St. Edmunds Cross and procured it for the Cloisters which he also was the head of. We met him, had lunch with him and had a tour of the Cloisers in 1998 and he says flat out what others won't. He REALLY does. I think it is interesting and we need to pay heed, because we do tend to get over admiring of genius, but at any rate, I'm just the messenger and we need to know, perhaps, what Art for Dummies is saying.

But we have this in literature, too? Don't we? And in film. For instance would you go to see a Woody Allen film now? Many people won't. Can we separate Ars Gratia Artis from the people producing it, or do we think that the art IS the person; so if the art is good, the person was too? Or if the person was bad, the art must not be good then?

An interesting concept, I want to get to the maid business.

Why DO we have a need to put people on a pedestal? Can we separate the art from the man or is there actually no need to? Fascinating questions here today!!

now I WILL admit I am a total fan of Hoving, shown here with me in NYC, notice how he's courteously trying to understand the thick Southern accent,

He really is, as Cassius said of Caesar, a man who bestrides the world like a Colossus. No joke. Wrote the absolutely best book (one of many) about the Bury St. Edmund's Cross: King of the Confessors, best book I ever read and it now has a coda thru edownload which explains all the stuff you wanted to ask.

Also wrote Making the Mummies Dance about what really happens in running a huge museum, and again, tells it like it is.

I am not familiar with any of Thomas Hoving's writings. I wonder though if any of his books will still be around or talked about 400 years from now.....hmmmmm. I will not read any book with "Dummies" in the title

Seriously, maybe I wouldn't like the man Rembrandt but I do admire his painting technique.
Emma

Ha, Emma, that's funny about the "Dummies" books. I'm just the opposite. When I see a book (on any subject) with "for Dummies" in the title, I secretly suspect that it was written for me, and I'm compelled to get it. After all, the author went to all that trouble writing a book just for me. The least I can do is read it.

On another subject, I'm a couple of pages ahead of the assignment in the reading, and I find the more I read, the less I like our guy Rembrandt as a human being. I may even have to change my theory that you can separate the man and his art. I'm having trouble getting past him as a person.

Rich

uh oh, off I go to read more, let's aim at 510, is that where you are, Rich?

I,m just a little beyond that (p518). Kind of overshot the mark. Got interested in Rembrandt's school and how the students pulled pranks on him. It would spoil it for you if I told you any more.

Rich

I've gotten to 518 too. Imagine -- ahead. It won't last.

The difference in Hoving and Schama and Hoving doesn't seem to be what they say about R, but how they feel about it. I seem to remember the cafuffle about R stealing his wife's dowry. We'll get to it later. She seems to have trusted him with the money in her will. He's obviously a spendthrift. Having dealt with several in my life, I know that they may be wonderful people in other regards, but you can't trust them with money. Perhaps they would never, never steal anything. But when it comes to the point of having to give up buying something they want in order to respect something so distant as a responsibility, or honor etc. etc. they're always sure it will come out all right somehow. I don't know whether Saskia was besotted enough to trust him, or was tricked or persuaded to sign that.

The things R went through to get money for his paintings sound bad to us (and to Hoving). I don't know, though, if he was any different from any other artist. Remember, there was no market then, with fixed prices, or auctions. Artists were completely dependent on what their patrons were willing to pay them. And willing to put up with in terms of delays and requests for more money. Artists were essentially beggars. Those of us who read Don Quijote found it full of begging requests for more money.

I don't know how I'm going to juggle this but I want to join the SrNet discussion on Pissarro...first I need to get the book "Depths of Glory" by Irving Stone. I have read Rembrandt ahead also but I think I need something else right now.

Happy Thanksgiving !(Original computer painting by Emma)

HOW LOVELY. HAPPY tHANKSGIVING TO YOU ALL!!

Beautiful painting, Emma.

Happy Thanksgiving to all. We'll be very busy around here today. We have 19 people coming for dinner. Big turkey going in the oven in about an hour.

Rich

Oh Emma, my goodness, that's beautiful, thank you! I hope each of you had a lovely Thanksgiving if you're in the USA and lots of curling if you're not! Hahahaa

My goodness 19 for dinner!!!!!

Sorry to introduce a discordant note in the Hoving/ Dummies thing!!! But I thought you all would want to know, in the interest of including all relevant points, what's being said. Those are good points on Hoving's perspectives, Joan, I took it a little differently, almost as an apologia, because Hoving himself has not been a saint, and I sort of thought he was saying well yes he did this and that BUT overall he was great, etc. I may be wrong but that's what I thought he said.

There's an entire chapter in Kenneth Clark's book on Amsterdam artists including Rembrandt, but as you'll see he's got things of an eclectic (and opinionated nature also) in covering them all. He seems to prefer The Jewish Bride of Rembrandts, and yet another Prodigal Son, unlike the other two!

He compares Frans Hals's Civil Guard to Rembrandt's Steelmeesters, and it's really interesting, he has full page plates but they are not in color, the former is like a snapshot of the people, very realistic, almost a photograph and the latter is less photographic and more..... masterly. Or so it seems to me, they are actually wonderful to compare.

Then he includes, IN this chapter, to make another point, Paul Potter's The Bull:

I hate to say it but I love that kind of art, call me what you will? Apparently Clark is talking about "a bourgeois capitalism" which led to a "defensive smugness and sentimentality...." He goes on:

Also the philosophy of observation involved a demand for realism in the most literal sense. In the 19th century Paul Potter's Bull was one of the most famous pictures in Holland. I must confess that I still find it irresistible. I am bored by abstractions, which so easily become vapid and repetitive, but the uncanny realisms of the sheep's head, keeps my eye occupied to the point of obsession, and there is something almost nightmarish about the way the young bull dominates this beautifully painted landscape.

Interesting! You will love the Irving Stone, Emma, but please don't stray too far!! I'll try to get today to page 518, I have a lovely long weekend here just for reading, and I'll put 518 in the heading too, since Joan and Rich are there already~!

Much appreciation for your comments about my computer painting

Ginny ~ Oh just look at the face on that bull. I'm reminded of one time I was sent from the orphanage to a working farm for a week in the summer. I was maybe 7 or 8. I had been playing around the fence next to this big field and all of a sudden this big bull comes charging at me and almost knocked over the fence. The farmer gave me a warning never to play there again. But Potter's Bull looks sweet and that he would never hurt anyone.

Emma

Emma, me TOO! I love that bull, I am not sure what kind of art that is? But I love it. I am going to get a print of the whole thing, that's not the whole thing and see it in color.

Me too as a child I was also chased by one, do you remember did you ever see those big pits they kept bulls in sometimes in PA? I have memories of bulls, too! And horse chestnut trees, so tall as the sky.

But I have come in to say you all must get a copy of the new Smithsonian, the December 2006 issue, with the geese on the cover, fascinating article in there by Paul Theroux and GEESE of all things and EB White, but REMBRANDT has pride of place also with a huge article on him, called Rembrandt at 400!!

Wonderful huge plates and stuff explained, it goes from page 72 to page 81, shows the Night Watch, Tobit and Anna with the Sheep which his parents supposedly posed for, I LOVE that one, I love his old women. Shows his son Titus (has anybody paused to consider the meaning of that name, it just struck me) and one of Saskia completed after her death in a red hat, very elegant looking, and a lot of others, it's a must read for our group!

I wonder if the Smithsonian is online, that would be wonderful, I love that magazine, does that mean I'm getting old?

Well Ginny, you've gone and done it. Now I have to find the latest copy of "Smithsonian Magazine." I thought Paul Theroux was through with writing. He is beyond all doubt my favorite author. I have followed his career since he began writing about his youthful days growing up, as I did, in a blue-collar urban "burb" of Boston.

I know that I have read every word he has written from those days through his professional friendship and ultimate feud with Noble Prize winning writer V.S. Naipaul.

We all have an author who, no matter what he writes, hits your hot button. Paul Theroux does that for me.

I havn't seen any recent work of his and thought he had retired from writing. So now see what you've done. Now I have to go out and get that issue of "Smithsonian."

Another subject: Is the painting of Saskia in a red hat the same as on p507 in our book? The one he painted right after she died?

Rich

Here you go Ginny Smithsonian magazine

Oh Ginger, thank you so much, you're so smart!

They are currently showing last month's but I'm sure the minute they can they'll get the new edition up, it only came yesterday in the mail. We will soon all be able to enjoy the entire article right here online!

Rich, the VERY one, I was not to it yet, so we have the lovely Schama explanation and the larger print to view in the magazine, not a whole lot larger but for some reason of greater depth. It makes me wonder why the prints in the Schama are not of greater clarity.

At any rate, I've only read one of Theroux, and that's the one on the train thru China. I was idly thinking yesterday I'd like to read it again. I am fascinated by geese, so this one did, indeed, hit ALL my buttons, have always wanted geese and have spent quite a time at State Fairs looking over the different ones. I seem to like the Embden if that's how you spell it, sort of greyish, beautiful bird. One thing they DO say is that they will keep the postman from the door, so I have hesitated but loved the engraving of the famous geese warning of the Attack of the Gauls in 390 BC.

I need some attack geese here!

Attack geese attack geese

hahaha I tell you what, I saw a swan on the attack against a tourist and nearly got in it myself, in Bruges and they are nothing to fool around with, that's a heck of a big bird, coming at you, flapping those wings and hissing, they HISS, it's quite effective, and those beaks!!! No sir, that's a heck of an attack bird.

In fact, Ginger, if I could find my photographs of our Books to England, I seem to remember one particularly interested in YOU in Hampton Court Palace? I seem to remember watching him out of the corner of my eye as he kept approaching us in somewhat of a huff as we sat on the bench. Had there not been so many of us it's possible you would have a Tale o the Attack Goose to talk about to this day, do you remember that?

Yes Ginny I remember it, went seaching and could not find our England trip so it must have been deleted.

Ginny, Theroux wrote several books about rail travel in the East, "The Great Railway Bazaar" and "Riding The Iron Rooster." are the two most popular. "Rooster" is probably the one you read. Don't read it again. There is so much good Theroux stuff out there.

Read "Dark Star Safari" it's a true story about his walk across Africa, alone. The hard way, from Cairo to Capetown. Theroux was in his sixties when he took off on that trek. A great adventure story with lots of philosophy and wry observation of human nature.

I remember one incident (This may not be completely precise since it's been a few years since I read it.) where he walked into a school where he, in his younger days, had taught as a Peace Corps Volunteer. The school had become run down and all but abandoned. He remembered that when he taught there one of the student boys would follow him around, barefoot, carrying a briefcase. One day he turned to the boy and asked him what was in the briefcase. The reply was, "Nothing, but the briefcase makes me feel important."

Decades later, when Theroux walked into the derelict site that used to be the school, he inquired if anyone remembered that boy, and what had become of him. The answer he got was, "That boy is now President of our country."

Rich

Ginny, I don't recall seeing those big pits they kept bulls in. I have seen them chained in stalls for breeding purposes (artificial insemination).
I used to love picking up horse chestnuts that had fallen. In the orphanage where I was, there was a huge old chestnut tree. There was also a big ole tree that had an engraved stone next to it that George Washington had stood under that tree. (Phila PA)

I have my December 2006 issue of Smithsonian mag but haven't had a chance yet to read it. With company this past week I had put it aside. Will definitely want to read those articles.
Smithsonian is online but usually the current issue is a month behind. Worth waiting for though if you don't get the mag delivered at home. Other wise why would anyone subscribe

Titus ? What does it mean ?

Some really interesting posts here today !
Emma

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titus_%28disambiguation%29

I looked up the name , and instead of being "disambiguated", as the article suggested,
I am still more in the dark than ever.

Why DID Rembrandt call his son Titus?

Brian

Hey, Brian, Just saw curling on TV. The Korbel Challenge. It does appear to take a lot of skill. What struck me is that when you launch(?) the stone, you launch yourself, as well, on an ice slide down the lane(?). It looks like the bowler keeps adjusting his aim as he slides along the ice, and when it appears he has it right he lets go of the rock.

The teams play hard and with great concentration, but there seems to be a lot of friendly chat between the competitors. I even saw what appeared to be one team member giving his opponent some advice. Is that common? Maybe what I thought was advice was just a little bit of one-upmanship.

On Rembrandt: Drove down to Barnes and Noble to scoop up the December issue of Smithsonian with the Rembrandt story. They don't have the December issue, yet. I'll be sending my round trip mileage bill to Ginny.

Rich

hahah Yikes!! Mileage R Not Us!

But you will enjoy it when it hits the stores, I'm sorry!

Brian, such a LOT of Titus references!!!

Some of which Rembrandt predates. I was thinking since he had such a yen for the Romans and busts of the Emperors he might have been thinking of the Emperor Titus, who with his father Vespasian (also named Titus, the first of the Flavians) built the Colosseum and shared the rule of his father.

He is the one who sacked Jerusalem and his brother Domitian completed the famous Arch of Titus

in his honor in Rome. But he also was in love with Berenice, daughter of the Jewish King Herod Agrippa I (grandson of Herod the Great). Their story is the subject of Racine's tragedy, Bérénice. Titus however was universally popular, and he gave great help to those who suffered from the plague and fire of Rome of 80A. D.

That's the good news, I guess, now for the bad. I'm on page 537. For some reason Professor Schama's roundabout prose really got to me in this section, yes there's the maid in the bed, but, it's kind of slopped over, thrown away and we're off, there's a change of mood and paintings, we've moving into landscapes. And I was stopped by Schama's

But it seems to me to be a mistake to conjure up an image of the painter trearfuly trudging the towpath, felling the town, and holding his wretchedness in the woods and the water meadows. His etchings of the 1640's and early 1650's are not all Arcadian in the sense of a dream landscape from which all urban presence has been banished....

That's on page 533, and then there's the fantastic etching, really glorious, of Het Molentje, on page 532. (Does het mean "the?") At any rate, I am more than ready for the landscapes, what do you say? Can we charge ahead? Especially when he's rambling? (Interesting, tho that "Arcadia" which we've been discussing in the Houseboat and Books into Movies appears again!

What stood out for you in these pages (I do like the 81 year old woman by Bol on page 520, I should look that good at 80, what are your thoughts on these pages?!? LOOK at those trees on page 536, I'm ready~!~

But I tell you what, I see great trouble coming! What did you make out of Schama's prose in the pages 510- as far as you got?

Ginny, thanks for mentioning the December issue of Smithsonian mag. I got into it today and found the Rembrandt 400 article. A few things not mentioned in Schama's book about his personal life I found interesting.

NOTE: The Story of Civilization is taking a short break, and will start reading about the Renaissance on Sunday, December 3. This is a great chance to join the discussion. You don't have to buy the book, since Robby posts it bit by bit online, and we respond to his posts.

This should be a great discussion. Whatever we discus, we always post many links -- this should be a great opportunity to see much of the great art of the period, and discuss it.

We have a lot of fun in that discussion. Some are knowledgeable about history or art; others, like me, are complete novices. But it's amazing how often we see parallels to our own lives in the lives of people in the past. As Durant says "This is about YOU".

Thanks, Joan! What do you all think about moving ahead to the landscapes? What did you find interesting Emma about the article? I must read it today!!

Landscapes, what can it mean if you switch from portraits to landscapes? Is there a difference in the two artists? That is if I do landscapes (don't most people start with landscapes? or? I know NOTHING of art!) Even after reading this book, or 537 pages of it, and I want to move on actually.

Which is more difficult? Looks like he worked in etchings and oils and just about everything.

What does it mean if he switched? Can YOU make anything out of Schama's prose here at all?

??

Let's plow ahead if you're ready?

Ginny, the landscape portion is very brief so it shouldn't be a problem to move on to it. I didn't even find anything too significant but in the magazine article I found it interesting what it said about the Rembrandt painting with the mill. That actual landscape was flat and Rembrandt painted the mill up on a hill ? This has always been one of my favorite Rembrandts. I haven't finished reading the Smithsonian article yet.
Emma

Ginny, Any chance we can move the pages up? I think we've more or less discussed the writing up to p518. I'm ready to move ahead.

Rich

me too, let's push ahead, where would you like to set the next marker, I'm ready, too! You to say and it's done!

Page 541 brings us through all of the discussion of his landscapes. I'd like to take the landscapes as a block.

Just my humble input.

Rich

Done! it's only 20 pages for me, I hope everybody else can catch up, let's go for it!!

I'll be back this afternoon with some points for us to discuss on the passages!

Well I'm now at 541 and I'm quite excited to see that in only 100 pages we shall have achieved our goal!! It's hard to believe!

But in this section again we learn much of other artists and some things about what we're looking at I would never have known, I had to take a magnifying glass to Omval to see any woman whatsoever and I'm still not sure I see her at this point! Do you!?! Where is she?

However I am thinking that the next time I go to NYC I will certainly go to the Pierpont Morgan library, it seems to have quite a few Rembrandts.

Now the pages 538 and 539 for me were mini epiphanies in that, in studying the techniques written about and the paintings Clump of Trees with Vista Drypoint and then Etching, I sort of somehow caught the excitement of art, of creation. I am not sure why, did these two pages affect you this way? Very exciting here. These two pages would have been enough for me in the book, I think.

IN SPITE of his likening the Three Trees to the Three Crosses, I guess they do look something like.

And IN SPITE of his long exegesis on Seghers, whose painting Abbey at Rijnsburg is so dark and such a black blob it's hard for me to see anything, even with a magnifying glass. Surely this painting has darkened! Are you able to make anything out at all, the description is very nice, I wonder what the original looks like?

It WAS exciting, tho to read about how Rembrandt would take his fingers to produce art, and the repetition of the story of Pliny's recounting of Protogenes and the dog drool on page 367 makes one wonder if that's where some of our modern artists got the idea for flinging stuff at a canvas?

Would you say what an elephant throws on a canvas is art? Is what Jackson Pollock did art? What is art? I feel that, having read 541 pages, I should know. Do I?

And it WAS very exciting to read about the corrosive paste directly plied to the copper creating a pitted surface!

I absolutely love the two etchings at the top of 533 and 534, but my favorite so far in the entire book is the snow: Winter Landscape on the top of page 538.. That is fabulous and it's in Cambridge, Mass. That so captures snow, to me. You can almost hear its silence.

I thought it might be covered in the description of the use of blank canvass but I can't find much on it, do you see a description of it? I looked it up again in the index and it says 537- 538, but I am not sure where he mentions it by name in the text?

Now on The Three Trees, showing the rain, etc., (also in the Pierpont Morgan Library which also has a Dickens Christmas Carol and which has just opened again), I must go see that, but I'm not seeing what I do in the Windmill. His art seems so DIFFERENT, to me, does it you?

(What is a "silverpoint 'pencil,'") on page 534?

So as Rich says, the landscapes seem neatly tied up here in this section, but it looks like the reappear again somewhere around 568, but other portraits do, too. I am wondering if the... it's hard to tell which the artist did for his own art, for the sake of doing it and which he did to sell, or are those thoughts one and the same?

A guilder for your thoughts (I have to say that's some mighty fine water in that close up on page 557, but I'll wait to hear from everybody up to 541), I do see Kenneth Clarke's Prodigal Son at the end but not the one Hoving admired,

I am sort of stuck now on Schama's idea of his laying down iron and violence the pastoral ways, and that coinciding with a new bourgeoisie who dressed as shepherdesses etc. and went to the country on drives. I kind of like that.

But what are YOUR thoughts on any or all of this?

Brian - I happened onto a movie on TV this afternoon "Men With Brooms". Thought of you and enjoyed watching it. Hope you're better.

Ginny ~ Your post above left me wondering if I really read all of that...I must go back and read it again.

Just getting into the section on Rembrandt's landscapes. They generally look grim and brooding to me, but I like them for that. The skies are steely grey, and the trees are often devoid of leaves. They remind me, like they remind the author, of Pieter Bruegel the Elder's landscapes.

If you live (or lived) in a cold climate for any period of time you know the feeling of an early winter day, the gray skies, the few hours of light and a cold that gets into your bones telling you that a long winter is coming. The paintings on pp528 and 529 really capture that feeling for me.

For years I had a framed copy of Pieter Bruegel's "Hunters in the Snow" that I had cut out of a magazine hanging on a wall of a house I lived in long ago. The picture is long gone and, for that matter, so is the house.

I'll have to find a copy of that Bruegel and post it. It's one of my favorites.

Rich

The winter landscape, bottom of page #528, seems to show "a man with a broom" possibly two? Where are you Brian? We need your help here.

Our wordsmith author, Prof. Schama, came up with another new one for me "tatterdemalion." He used it in reference to the sight of vagabonds. My "New Oxford American Dictionary" (which, incidentally weighs more than several of our Schama texts) does not show the word.

I'll try "Googling" it.

Rich

Ok found it in the "Wierd Words" section of an encyclopedia called "World Wide Words."

TATTERDEMALION

A tattered or ragged person. This is a lively, rattling, machine-gun word, one chosen by many writers as suitable accompaniment to invective or disparagement. Here’s Lady Wishfort, in William Congreve’s play The Way of the World: “Frippery? Superannuated frippery? I’ll frippery the villain; I’ll reduce him to frippery and rags, a tatterdemalion!”. Or James Joyce, in full flow in Ulysses: “Florry Talbot, a blond feeble goosefat whore in a tatterdemalion gown of mildewed strawberry, lolls spreadeagle in the sofa corner, her limp forearm pendent over the bolster, listening”.

But where it comes from is open to argument. The first part seems pretty certain to be our English tatter. Some writers trace the second bit to the French maillon, swaddling clothes. Others say it comes from the Italian maglia for undershirt or (British English) vest. Support for this comes from the very earliest use, by Ben Jonson in 1611, which he spelt as tatter-de-mallian, reportedly said as though it were Italian.

Your assignment for today: Use "tatterdemalion" at least once in polite conversation within the next 24 hours.

Rich

Gosh that sounds like I feel right now, a tatterdemalion, reminds me of the nursery rhyme, and some in rags and some in tags and some in velvet gowns.

Today I do feel like such a tatterdemalion, that's fascinating, Rich, I'm going to put that in the Book Nook!

If he had said ragamuffin instead of tatterdemalion I'd have understood.

GINNY: " my favorite so far in the entire book is the snow: Winter Landscape on the top of page 538.. That is fabulous and it's in Cambridge, Mass. That so captures snow, to me. You can almost hear its silence".

I've seen a copy of that etching used to illustrate a haiku by Matsao Basho, which gives a different take:

"Winter storm-

in a world of one color

the sound of wind.

"Men with Brooms": I rented that movie from Netflix after watching curling in the Olympics. It's not a great movie (too much yuckie sex for me, and very confusing to follow the plot) but it does show curling.

EmmaBarb - - - I agree with JoanK " it's not a great movie", and even the curling scenes are less than explicit.

Ginny - - - the silverpoint pencil and its use is described in connection with drawing on vellum at the bottom of page 362 (of my hard-cover book) and has been referred to, a few times through the work.

JoanK - - - I love your haiku it sums up the painting beautifully.

Thanks for all the good wishes regarding my "back" - the good news is that the back is okay again, and I'm back to curling three times a week.

Rich - - - I did not see the Korbel Challenge, but curling IS a gentlemanly sport, and there is much friendly banter, before, during, and after the game. It was unlikely that any advice given during a game was one-upmanship, and even more unlikely that it was heeded. Your link to Pieter Bruegels "Hunters in the Snow" is
http://www.artchive.com/artchive/b/bruegel/thumb/hunters_in_the_snow.jpg

More on tatterdemalion - - - if you have the stamina, you should read James Joyce's ULYSSES - where he used the expression to describe the fat whore, Florry Talbot.

Brian

I agree, the movie was not that great but I was interested in the curling since it's been talked about here. I thought it was neat the way they slid on the ice at first and then let go of the stone. There appeared to be a red line they had to follow and stop at a certain spot. Reminded me somewhat of bowling on ice with a hint of the game of horseshoes. The brooms were apparently of their choice too. I didn't understand the point system. Oops, a bit off topic aren't I.

JoanK ~ I too love your haiku "Winter storm".

Brian - good to see you and that your back is okay again.

Emma

Here's that article on Rembrandt at 400 in the December 2006 issue of The Smithsonian Magazine. Simon Schama's Rembrandt's Eyes is mentioned at the very end of the article.

Thanks, Brian for the "Hunters in the Snow" reference. Also glad to hear that your back is better, and you have returned to curling.

Barnes and Noble now has the Dec. issue of "Smithsonian" and I purchased it. Finally. Started out reading the Theroux story on geese. Yawn.

The Rembrandt story didn't seem to have much that we haven't already learned from Prof. Schama. The inclusion of "Aristotle with a Bust of Homer," however, ignited some long dormant neuron in my head. Wasn't there some scandal about that painting many years ago. Was it defaced or stolen? One neuron doesn't carry many bytes of information. Can anyone remember what that was about?

Nice haiku, Joan.

Rich

I can't find anything about the Aristotle painting being defaced, but perhaps your neuron was being stimulated by the tragedies that befelled the Night Watch.

Over the centuries, The Night Watch has been trimmed to fit a tight location, rolled up and stashed in a bunker to protect it from the Nazis, slashed with a bread knife (in 1975), sprayed with acid by a deranged museum visitor (in 1990) and interpreted on beer steins, on T-shirts and in the works of modern artists.

Brian

I "Googled" Aristotle Contemplating the Bust of Homer, and found why It made news a number of years ago:- It was the first painting to sell for over a million dollars.

The Metropolitan Museum in New York bought it in 1961 for $2.3 million. At that time a record.

Rich

Well THERE'S our Brian and I am glad you are better and back on the ice three days a week!

Oh for heaven's sake, silverpoint pencil, you are so right, mentioned a thousand times, in fact I believe (correct me) I have asked that question before! I wonder why that will NOT stick!

Now to me the Winter Landscpe is silent, that peculiar lack of sound and pureness of the snow.. When I look at it I can hear the quiet snow crunching but otherwise that strange quiet and stillness. But you have to remember we don't get snow here unless it's a real special occasion and I'm going on my youth and walks through the woods in the silent snow. I love that. I need to see if I can get a print of that, that one really speaks to me.

Joan, what a super haiku, that's a snow scene in words, thank you and for the movie, I've ordered it from Netflix, the nice thing about DVD is you can rush thru the yucky sex scenes (nothing can be worse, nothing, than the TV stations in Rembrandt's own home town in 2005, nothing. I have never in my LIFE and I kid you not! I am looking forward to watching the movie! Maybe we can discuss it, in an adjunct sort of way, we've got a curler here, where else can anybody say that one?!?

WHAT, Rich? Yawn on the Geese? YAWN? Yawn? I thought you liked his work? SOME people feel he's become a bit of a yawn in his recent works!!!

I am glad, Emma, that our long read thru Professor Schama has made us informed, I do feel a little more informed, even tho I scream every time he does another seque. I appreciate he's trying to be inclusive. I think this is the historian, am I right in that, that he's primarily an historian? Because this seems to me how an historian approaches things: needing to see the whole picture, the trends and influences? We'll have to say, each of us, at the end our own rating.

I must go read the Geese, I love geese and have not had time until now, but it IS nice to be so au courant with our Rembrandt and now I have two trips I need to take, one to the Pierpont Morgan Library in NYC (first) and now that Joan K says that Winter Landscape is in Cambridge, Mass, to see that winter landscape.

I am not particularly moved by the Three Trees, but let's face it in black and white and small, you can't TELL much, can you? I mean when you stand in front of the Jewish Bride (peering around the shoulders of the crowd milling in front of you) it takes your breath away. We're doing well here moving along.

And instead of smoothly integrating the different styles of graphic expression—etching and drypoint—Rembrandt on occasion actually chose to emphasize, quite deliberately, their discontinuity. Never more so perhaps than in The Omval which looks disconcertingly like two entirely discrete compositions that have been awkwardly joined in the same print.

This quote is on page 539 of the paperback book, (the page before the Omval itself appears) let's discuss this, it DOES appear to be two halves of different coins, what do you think of it (I still don't see the woman) but I really like Schama's description of what the Omval was.

I can NEVER tell in this book when Schama offers an opinion, if it's ONLY his opinion or if it has weight behind it? I mean a LOT of what he has speculated can only be that and some of it has been debated, so IS it his opinion? OR?

I WILL say under magnification that the left bottom quadrant (I hope that's not the woman), in the Omval, but the lines of it look like the illustrations in Milne, in the When We Were Very Young and Now We Are Six which I love. I don't know what that is called, but I really love it. I wish I could do it.

Schama says he thinks it is meant to represent Saskia, and using a very much magnified copy of the etching I have produced an image, which does, in fact look like a representation of the way she is portrayed in "Saskia Laughing" on page 366 (of my hard-cover book); and, as Schama says, her hand is reaching out - - - but, here he has lost me, I am unable to envisage "her lover's legs".

I don't think I am smoking the same stuff as Rembrandt was !

Brian

Omval sketch by Rembrandt.

me either Brian! hahahaa

Maybe he's (looking ahead) going thru some kind of sex thing that we don't know about.

Thank you Emma for that sketch, in it it seems to me, untutored as I am, to combine both sides of the work, it's the same sort of fine lines, on the extreme left and it, I wonder, is he indicating here with the woman and the and and legs (which I still don't see, it's like see if you can find the tool box in some of these childhood games) but it does look to me as if he might be saying here's the outside world and then there's a private one?

Or am I just extrapolating my own desperate thoughts (since I have no idea what he's saying) onto the work?

At any rate, I suggest we vault ahead 20 pages. It's not as if these pages are only text, and I think it would be fun to get thru the next section and onward!

What are your thoughts?

Off to read the GEESE, if the GEESE is not appealing then something is truly wrong with our author's touch as they are about as fascinating to me as you can get. I'll report back!

20 more?

Thanks for the scetch. I can't see the woman, either. But I see what you mean, GINNY, about the illustrations to Winnie-the-Pooh. I love him, too!!

Well, it's happened. We packed all the books, and I had to pack Schama!! I figured he was too big to be left til the last minute. But I'll follow along with you as best I can until I get him back again.

Joan!! You're ALREADY packed? How fast that is, when do you leave? Isn't the internet glorious, we will still have you!!!

Safe trip, will you be flying? How is the stuff going to get there? All very exciting now, I bet you will be relieved once you settle in that you made the move so quickly!

I'm reading ahead when I can sit to relax a bit.

I think the woman (in a long white apron) is in the hollow of the tree trunk.

JoanK ~ have a safe trip. California is it ?

Emma

Did you all see the big program this morning, I think it was on ABC, on the swan, the Mute Swan (the big white one) (the pretty one, what you think of AS a swan, or I do, anyway), and how and in what ways it is driving out the other wild fowl including the geese, from our waterways and lakes? I only caught the tail end of it but to hear them tell it that bird is a veritable Kudzu of birds, yet it's so beautiful.

They did include shots of them moving aggressively tho and that reminds me of one in Brugge, Belgium, which sort of...I don't want to use the word attacked (because he could have been worse) but which certainly aggressively ran up on some tourists who got too close to the nest (which was about 2 feet from the sidewalk). Boy those things are frightening, they sort of rear up on their legs, which makes them quite tall, and beat those huge wings and hiss and strike with the beak, and they are quite something. And as shown this morning, they can also do this on WATER, they are not walking but they use their wings to sort of elevate themselves upright and carry themselves across the water quickly (almost as if they were trying to take off but they aren't, they are attacking; scared me! hahaha) and they move VERY fast. (All this is apropos of the goose article) haahha and if they can drive off GEESE then you know something is up.

The program also made the point about diversity in our country and how desirable the melting pot was and that in nature the same goal is not present, especially in the case of the Mute Swan, who knew?

Thank you Emma for the location of the woman, I'll look again.

Have a safe trip, Joan, wherever your destination.

Rich

Speaking of trips, don't you think it unusual that Rembrandt never visited Florence or Rome? I know transportation was not outstanding in the 17th century, but someone with the skill, reputation and means of Rembrandt, living so close but never visiting these art Meccas? A little surprising.

Back to geese. Ginny's reference to A.A. Milne plus the illustration from E.B. White's "Charlotte's Web" in the Smithsonian article does bring to mind how often geese were illustrated in children's literature. Then we can't end this goose/children's story discussion without mentioning the apocryphal (sp?) author of many children's stories and rhymes, Mother Goose, herself.

I think I remember reading somewhere that there really was a Mother Goose.

Rich

The original book of childrens' poems was a collection of extant poems, and the author
was deemed to be Blanche Fisher Wright. The illustrator of the book is not named, but
the illustrations have the initials 'M.W' in the corner, thought to belong to Milo Winter,
who illustrated several other similar books in his day.

A lady named Elizabeth Foster (Fisher? Foster?) is named as "the original Mother
Goose"and a grave site for a "Mary" Goose is attached.

Brian

Thanks, Brian, for that research. The grave marker is interesting, isn't it? Looks like Ms. Goose's husband, Isaac was still alive when she died in 1690, and, if I'm reading the inscription accurately, there is a Susana Goose, aged 15 months, buried there also.

I like those old gravestones.

Rich

I see the couple in "The Omval" clearly. I don't see them in Rembrandt's "Three Trees,"

It's interesting to learn, however, that in addition to including himself as a peripheral character in many paintings (Like Alfred Hitchcock in films), there were a few risqué double-entendres in some of Rembrandt's etchings.

Rich

Wow, Brian, that's incredible!

I was shocked to learn that I actually own a first edition of Mother Goose and never knew it. It was my mothers which she read to me, and she taught first grade, and it never occurred to me (since they have reprinted it with the original cover) that she had the original, but she did and I do too, now.

I was baby sitting today and I read the Rembrandt article in the Smithsonian and was interested to see our book as EmmaBarb has mentioned and our Dr. Schama referred to as a "cultural historian." I believe that? Because that's the way he writes.

I am not sure that I gained a great deal from the Rembrandt article but I think if I had not read 500 plus pages in the Schama book I would have, I like the way they approached the subject.

I kind of liked the goose article, actually, tho now with it in the car and my being very loth to actually go out there in the cold and get it, I can't particularly point to any one thing. He DOES seem a bit down on other people, particularly EB White, but he himself anthropomorphizes (is that spelled correctly?!?) his own geese by naming them, I'm sure you caught that. I used to name a couple of our chickens, but not the whole flock. On the whole his penchant for casting off on others seems intact and is one of the reasons I sort of found myself disliking his writing, but I'm open to trying another one.

Let's move on 20 more pages, who's with me!!??!!

I will have more time to read after the holidays.
I gave my ancient copy of Mother Goose to my then DIL and now I wish I hadn't. I also gave her all my sons Dr. Seuss books, including a rather large Cat In The Hat stuffed toy

Ah, Emma, but what better use than for her to pass it down to her own children! Good for you!!

Good point also on the time factor of the holidays, let's set a different goal then. What seems reasonable, All? Now that I see the end in sight, I'm on fire to get there hahahaha

I can see it all now... Ginny on the Antiques Road Show, clutching her first edition of "Mother Goose" in her little hands, while a very erudite, but verbose book expert talks on about the pros and cons of her book to the T.V. audience.

Now the moment we are all waiting for is upon us; the part when he tells Ginny and the world how much the book is worth.

"A BAZILLION DOLLARS"

Mr. Stuffshirt asks, "Now, what's the first thing you're going to do with all that money, young lady?"

Her almost tearful, but heartfelt and enthusiastic reply, "I'm going to take my whole Rembrandt discussion group to Amsterdam!"

The audience comes to its feet with applause.

Rich

haahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa what a hoot!

One small change in scenario, book is worn by childish hands; it looks well used, so much for the monetary value! (Maybe we could do a field trip to Amsterdam NY? hjahaaaaaaaaaaaa

I LOVE the Antiques Road Show, I love the egos and the transparent "I want to know what it's worth," and then the amazing BAZILLION winners who say, variously, you're kidding and "I need to sit down!" loved that guy.

Thanks for the good wishes. I leave for CA the 31st. But my daughters and grandchildren come the 20th: I want to get a lot of my stuff packed by then.

GINNY: what? You were babysitting, and were able to read? Your grand must be a very good baby!

I want to get to the end too, but I also don't want to miss or skip over some very interesting text.
By-the-way, did anyone see the love scenes in "The Three Trees" ? I didn't. Was that Prof Schama's fantasty ?

Rich - wow ! I'll start my packing list. Guess I should renew my passport first.

So Rembrandt made up rumors about her and had his lover/nursemaid put into jail so that he would not have to pay her support.

The opening sentence to Part Five, Chapter iii, is appropriate. "Never confuse a genius with a saint."

Something was awakened in another one of those old, idle neurons, when I read the description of the jail she was locked into, smelling of, among other things, pease porridge. I don't know what pease porridge is, but do vaguely remember part of a nursery rhyme that went: Pease porridge hot, pease porridge cold, pease porridge in the pot, nine days old.

Somebody help me with this. What is pease porridge, and what does that rhyme mean?

Rich

Rich, Your wish is my command

. Pease porridge

I don't know what the rhyme means.

Thank you Ginger. It actually sounds pretty good to me. I would imagine that it has the consistency of mashed potatoes. I believe I would like pease porridge. My concept of the ideal bowl of soup on a cold day is home made pea soup with bits of ham in it.

Now, here's where we close the loop on our Mother Goose discussion. After some "Googling" I found that it is, in fact, a Mother Goose rhyme.

The entire rhyme goes:

Peas porridge hot, peas porridge cold

Peas porridge in the pot 9 days old

Some like it hot, some like it cold

Some like it in the pot 9 days old.

Edit: More "Googled' information on that Mother Goose Rhyme:

The 1959 Billy Wilder film "Some Like It Hot" derives its title from this rhyme.

In the Little House books, Laura muses that she likes pease porridge hot and cold, but in her house it never lasts as long as nine days.

You never know what you are going to learn here.

Rich

EEeuuuuuuu, yikes and ugg, Ginger!! hahahaha Thank you for that recipe. The very second I saw Rich's pease porridge hot, I knew the ending, how bouncy can you get and what fascinating background information, Rich! Billy Wilder!!!!

But eeeeuuuuuu, some like it cold indeed, you couldn't force me to eat that! euuuuuuuu. Er...

Ah...

No I have never seen the woman in the trees, I do see a hand in Omval tho? And possibly a profile.

Rich, you're moving on or you have the hardback, the Never confuse a genius with a saint is on page 543?? I'm going to read on, too, 20 pages in the paperback to page 562, the beginning of chapter 11 in the paperback and then I'll wait till after the holidays say the 27th or so for you guys because:

I have a little time off and on now

Many of the pages are entirely taken up by plates

I want to get thru this next section which looks somewhat purient.

As Billy Wilder knew, some like it hot, but I think I can do without this next bit so am pushing on!

Joan K, you are SO organized, I would have one pencil packed and probably, knowing me, flounce my way to the plane without a moment's hesitation: let them eat pease porridge, I'd cry! hahahaha

OH Ginny! you don't like split pea soup with ham or bacon. Gee I thought everyone did. I ran all over to "search" for the grave stone of Mother Goose forgetting I had seen it here

. OH! well next for me is homemade chicken and noodle soup maybe you'll have a bowl of it

"Never confuse a genius with a saint" is on the top of p542 in my hardbound (county library) version. I'm beginning to suspect that we have different versions of "Rembrandt's Eyes" and page references don't have much meaning.

Rich

Rich - - - it's also on the upper part of my hard cover book on the same page. It starts subheading "iii" of Chapter 10 "Exposures".

I, personally do not dis-enjoy Rembrandt's raunchy etchings. They give real meaning to the old saying "would you like to come in and see my etchings?"; a much better line than "do you want to see some of my home movies?

Brian

Gosh, Brian, I guess I'll have to come up with another pick-up line.

On Rembrandt, Can we all say that our page numbers agree?

Rich

The books seem to be the same book, let's do chapters and plates, especially since we're doing 20 pages at a clip, let's go up to Chapter Eleven by December 27? And then 20 more will put us in subtitle ii? And there are 702 pages and the END is definitely in sight? I can't believe it and 20 pages is nothing, half of them are filled with plates, let's GO for it~!

I'm going to change the heading title to read Discussing up to Chapter 11 starting December 27, does that seem viable?

Sounds good to me, lets go.

Rich

Well, let me be the first to wish my fellow Rembrandteers a Merry Christmas, and Happy Holidays.

Rich

"Merry Christmas !

Heap On More Wood The Wind Is Chill
Words: Sir Walter Scott (1771-1832)

Heap on more wood! the wind is chill;
But let it whistle as it will,
We'll keep our Christmas merry still,
We'll keep our Christmas merry
still,

I love this old poem by Sir Walter Scott and did not realize it's actually a carol, somebody has apparently set it to music!

Heap on More Wood

PS! OH! Almost forgot! Last night I was passing by the television and the Antiques Road Show was on and of course I was hooked, people had the MOST valuable treasures, well here came a man with a Delft face and I looked at it and listened to who did it etc., (turned out not to be so very valuable after all), but I was stuck suddenly by the thought that it was a Rembrandt, and sure enough it was a copy of the face on page 339 of the paperback, portrait of an eighty three year old woman.

So actually this book HAS made a difference!!!

In looking back over the book to find it, I am amazed at all the notes and underlining hahahaa but especially at the huge numbers of different works of art we've looked at (and so many, so MANY here in the early morning hours) so dark! DARK!

I hope each of you has the most wonderful holiday season no matter how or with whom you celebrate it: peace and joy!

See you again on December 27th!

MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL!!

There is an interesting article in Saturday's NY Times. I don't remember Schama every mentioning Jan Brueghel and Rubens often collaborated. Rubens would paint the figures and Brueghel did the landscape/animals/etc. Apparently the two were fast friends. When Brueghel died, Rubens was the executor of his will and the guardian of his younger children. I think this is interesting and am surprised the good professor neglected to mention it.

I'm off to do my Christmas shopping [better late than never]. Happy Holidays all!

An interview with Stephanie Dickey, author of "Rembrandt at 400" which appeared in the December 2007 issue of Smithsonian Magazine.

Merry Christmas !

Thank you, Joan, and I'm agog now to learn if you're in your new place and what's happening!

Wow here it is the 27th already and I hope you all have had a wonderful holiday. Our brick mason never came so we're in danger of burning down the house with every log heaped on the blaze but at least we'll go out in warmth. Ahahaha. (It's not THAT bad).

At any rate, Suec, you are right, I don't recall Schama mentioning yet that about Rubens and Brueghel my goodness. And thank you EmmaBarb for that interesting article, we're SO au courant here in reading Rembrandt on his 400th!

I'm now up to chapter 11 and thought, well hey that was not so bad, that must not have been the chapter with the monk, but upon rereading I see it was.

I must say that for a man of words, many many MANY words, Schama somehow manages, when he chooses, to obscure very nicely the facts from the reader.

I don't see any reference as to which sex perhaps we're looking at the monk with,but those are pretty masculine knees there but I definitely would never have seen the famous "mistake" of the double arms, because I had to look several times to see them in the first place. I did appreciate the bit about the bathing scene ( and the water on the ankles, there, very fine). I missed entirely and must rely on you for the significance of the hand, the unfinished hand and what it MEANS, in Hendrickje's Bathing, he's invented the "antipose" here, but Schama has left this person scratching her head. Is he saying the knees are defined and the hand is not? What did you get out of that?

I had to really laugh at him and Kenneth Clark, whose book I just found, and his scoffing at the "Gothic hulk of an old body" with her feet in the water, "said more about his own fastidiousness, or possibly his greater familiarity with varieties of sailing craft than with unidealized naked bodies...." hahahahaha OUCH!!

There is NOTHING so fine as an argument between two academics!!!! I still l laugh at two of them getting into it in the Nova presentation of the Roman Baths.

But hasn't Kenneth Clark passed on?

Is this old wreck of a body Schama is talking about depicted in the book at all, so we can decide for ourselves? I'll pry out Civilization again and see if I can find that reference. Hahahaa

But at the beginning of that statement we have this:

It's precisely this resistance to visualizing them as art objects which has so irritated and bewildered Rembrandt's critics from the seventeenth to the twentieth century.

I didn't know Clark WAS a critic, no telling what Schama would think of Hoving because now we get to some of the sticky parts, if I can even understand them correctly, can you?

I can see the artist cast off Geertje, and promised her "alimony" in the shape of 160 guilders for his new inamorata, but don't you think (or do you) his having her put in an insane asylum was a bit much? Not to mention his efforts to extend her term there from 5 to 11 years, he sounds like Simon Legree. And so he entered into a conspiracy with her BROTHER who apparently sold her down the river? And then the brother also turned like the worm he apparently was or he was telling the truth and R attempted to restrain HIM?

I am having somewhat of a problem knowing how this is all legislated by civil notaries, when they can call the pregnant Hendrickje, and lecture HER on her immorality but not him? I am not sure how a court of civil law can convict Geertje who was not his wife and over whom he had no jurisdiction?

Boy howdy, the plot has really thickened, what are any of your own thoughts on anything up to Chapter 11?

Yes, Sir Kenneth Clark passed away in 1983.

I wondered if he was any relation to Sir Arthur C. Clarke despite the difference in spelling of the last name, but the bios of Sir Kenneth mention no relationship. Arthur C. has always intriged me, retiring to spend his last years on the island of Sri Lanka.

As far as how Rembrandt managed to get his mistress so easily imprisoned, I find a quick explanation for many things in an expression that never fails:- It's amazing what money can buy!

Now to immerse further into Chapter II. First things first, however. First I have to FIND THE BOOK! I know I put it in a safe place. Now where was that?

Rich

Rembrandt's next mistress (while his first mistress remained incarcerated in the "pease porridge" place) didn't start out much better than the first.

After she began to show visible indications of pregnancy, she was 'summoned' to appear before the Church Council to answer reports that she was "living in whoredom with the painter Rembrandt (in Hoererij verloopen met Rembrandt de schilder)."

Summoned by a church? Compelled to be yelled at in public by some self appointed, sanctimonious old duffs about one's private life? Who owes them an explanation? It's no wonder that, after enduring such an environment in the Old World, America's founding fathers held as a high priority the limiting of the secular power of churches.

Rich

Yeah and notice that since Rembrandt was not among the Faithful, no penalty for him. Jeepers~

Glad you found the book, I think the Library already has suspicions of you!

You should have left up your cute challenge in the Book Forum a little longer, it stumped ME! hahahaa

All RIIIIGHT, a brignt NEW YEAR and the FINISH LINE is in sight, Ollie Ollie Oxen FREEEEEEeeeeee, as the Quz Show says, Everybody Sign in, Please!

Our Joan K is moving so she'll be out for a bit, where are the rest of you? Ice skating?

I wish you could see ME on ice skates! hahahaha We're thundering towards the finish of a FIRST ever thing: a non fiction book on ART actually completed, a SeniorNet FIRST and a books FIRST, let's do it in style!

Is everybody caught up? Can we move even 20 pages on or is there something more you'd like to discuss here? Three armed women? hahahaaa

Let's talk!

I hereby resolve to read my pages, and to post if I think of anything useful to say.
I have to admit to having had (pluperfect) - a pluperfect Christmas - with the family all around.
I hope you all had the same, and will have a wonderful 2007.

Our curling took a short break over the holiday, but I'm back to the ice on Friday.
I have not been on skates for years, and abandoned my cross-country skis after my stoke.

Brian.

Hello to everyone ! I've completed the assignment and hope to get back to reading Rembrandt now the holidays are over. The only thing that might slow me down is I have to try to get a doctor appointment soon for a pain in my upper back that won't go away.

I wonder if in that "three armed woman" the original painting had been cleaned too much to have that extra arm ? I can't believe Rembrandt intended that.

Happy New Year!!

I'm still here and [finally] caught up. In spite of Schama's sympathic treatment, Rembrandt doesn't come across as a very likeable guy. Maybe it's the lack of sunlight.

hahaha HOLA!! So glad to see you all! Yes, let's....er not skate, then, Brian, (especially in my case) but rather... (we can see whose movie Men With Brooms has not come) er...skitter? SWEEP!! Let us SWEEP gracefully towards the finish line! We're caught UP, we're ready and we are HOT!

I could use some Men With Brooms here, actually, we celebrated our first Christmas with our new grandson, our one and only what a joy, take a peek: Little John is he precious or is he precious? I get to keep him in the New Year instead of Day Care, too. I am very excited!

It does make you wonder about Rembrandt and the three arms, and I think you have hit on it Emma, an underpainting/ cleaned. Surely anybody as careful as he was would not have put three arms!

What else in these pages impresses? Or that you'd like to talk about?

I also agree Suec that somehow (tho I do think Schama has given it the old school try, he almost drowned us in words around the fact) it's kind of hard in this section to admire R's personal morals. But I'm still trying to understand the strange system where he's paying "Palimony" long before its time? And she is demanding more which led to her unfortunate incarceration in a madhouse.

Wow.

Do we have palimony NOW for this type of thing?

Nice to see people back, and (reasonably) healthy. Get that back checked out EmmaB. Oops, not everyone has returned. I guess Joan is in the process of relocating.

Brian and Ginny, your mention of skating brings some regret here. Moving to a perpetually warm climate has its drawbacks, and one of them is the absence of ice skating. I do miss it.

Suec, I agree with you, our man Rembrandt does not seem to be a nice person. I wouldn't trust him baby-sitting my teen age daughter (if I had one).

As for Rembrandt's art, the expression on Bathsheba's face (p553) is brilliant. The complexity of emotions that she shows in that one expression is amazing to me.

Rich

As a lurker from way back (to other discussion groups) - - - I wonder whether we have those who lurk on our site to read our profound thoughts. If there are, I wonder whether they might be constrained to post here at least once, to let us know of their presence.

Brian

What page are we on ? I've lost track and my book is downstairs.

Ginny ~ oh how precious...I just love his perfectly contoured mouth. How wonderful you get to keep little John instead of Day Care.

It's amazing what is under some paintings and these old master's works often reveal an even better painting after cleaning. Of course it comes from running out of canvas or board to paint on...it's a common practice.

Rich - tried to get doctor appt today but they left at noon...will try again tomorrow. It hasn't gotten any worse but no better either.
We have an ice-skating rink near where I live that's open all year round.

I'm here -- more or less. I'm in California now, staying with my daughter and looking for a place to live. Left my son behind to finish packing. My Schama is packed, so I won't see it for weeks, but I'll try to follow along. Maybe the local library has a copy.

GINNY; what a beautiful grandson you have!! Very few babies look that cute when they are that young. Let me know how life as a grandma suits you.

I noticed a few days ago two Rembrandt etchings came up on Antiques Road Show. I wonder how many are out there.

JoanK ~ good to see you're in California now with your daughter. Good luck on finding a place to live. I would want to be near the water somewhere.
I missed that Antique Roads Show...would like to have seen how much they went for and what the story of their ownership was. You know people used to go through the wastebaskets of known artists and keep some of their etchings and sketches. Would you call that stealing....I wonder ?

Ginny.

What a cute baby!

suec

about how some people go through artists' trash to possibly find anything of value reminds me of something that I learned as a result of being a "Law and Order" addict.... If you put something in the trash and put the trash outside your house, it's no longer your property. It's fair game. Many bad guys have been put in jail as the result of evidence found in their trash without a search warrent. (At least on TV.)

Different subject: The expression on the face of Bathsheba (p553), a look which I mentioned in an earlier post had fascinated me, was very much intentional on the part of the artist. Rembrandt was striving for just that look. In the three nude etchings (pp558 and 559), each shows the same expression on the model's face. It looks like, as the author says, they were "auditioning" for the Bathsheba painting.

Rich

Rich - I watch "Law and Order" too...like that show. In Rembrandt's day I guess trash outside was fair game. I mentioned trash cans because I went to an exhibit at a museum in Baltimore (Walter's) and they had some watercolour paintings that someone "found ?" in the artist's waste paper basket in his studio.

I don't really have anything to mention except maybe the underpainting in the artist's studio with his half-clothed lady warming herself by the fireplace. There is a lot going on. I believe the lady had just finished nursing their baby and put it to sleep in the cradle on the floor. The bottom shutters closed to keep people from looking in. The very large easel on the left to put the artist in the painting by proxy. I think this painting was just an exercise of private family time and never completed.

I don't see a cradle in that painting! Schama says it's on the table and you see it on the floor. I don't see a cradle in either place.

Changing the subject: You have to wonder why an artist starts a work and then doesn't finish it like the painting on p560 with the invisible cradle. I guess the fact that he kept it probably meant that he would finish it someday. I have a garage full of half completed "to-do" projects that I intend to finish "some day."

Rich

There is a mere outline of the top of the cradle next to the table top...I'm supposing the cradle is on the floor.

I recall reading that Rembrandt had many paintings he started in hopes someone would see it and want him to custom finish it for purchase. Or, a sketch for printmaking.

I enjoyed following the "Depths of Glory" Pissarro book discussion here in SrNet (which is now read only) and am now back to Rembrandt.
Are there any new artist discussions in the works ? I'd be interested.

I also found the "Beowulf" discussion I'm reading mainly because Julie Roberts is playing Grendel's mother...in the half-animated movie due to come out in February.

Oh definitely, to ME that looks like a cradle on the table with towels on the bottom of it, to be frank it looks like a Graco car seat hahaha with facing right with towels for burping on the right draped over it, but than again, the baby's been here and so I am seeing Graco everything everywhere! hahahaha

Oh good points, Rich, on the models for Bathsheba and the similarity of their expressions!!

Since we're all caught up, and it's the weekend we can enter our Weekend Warrior phase and ratchet it up 10 more pages or so? Let's go to page 574 in the paperback (a couple of pages are plates) and for those of you with the hardback, how about the bottom of the page with the An Old Woman Reading at the top left? 10 or so pages on?

Now you talk about an EXPRESSION, just check that out!! I'd like to have a print of that one! I also like the facing page with the Portrait of Jan Six. I like depictions of ANYBODY reading! hahaha

So let's reconvene here as soon as possible with our thoughts on these new pages?

Maybe like today?

hahaa Does anybody realize that at page 574 we're two skips and a jump from page 600? Can you believe that?

Emma I don't know of any book on artists proposed but we've sure had good luck lately with them, haven't we? That's a nice addition to our reading!

The "Old Woman Reading" is on page 574 in the hardbound version, also.

Rich

YAY, TEAM. Now if I could only spell corpus I'd be in good shape! hahahaa

Just starting to read that section. It looks like Rembrandt's lifestyle and morals are catching up with him and he's falling out of favor with the "moneyed class."

I find myself going to the 'fridge for a snack more frequently when reading this part of the book. Maybe its the subliminal suggestions when we are told that Rembrandt's first mistress was locked up in an institution in GOUDA, and the peace treaty between Spain and Holland was signed in MUNSTER.

Or maybe it's just my weakness for cheese.

Rich

OOps my mistake...Angelina Jolie is playing Grendel's mother in the half-animated "Beowulf". It's amazing what these animators can do these days with computer technology. I hope Robert Zemeckis as director pays a lot of attention to this one.

There's some really good reading coming up in this part of the book. I'm excited we're two skips and a jump from page 600

I really enjoy cheese...yummmm !

If we take Prof. Schama's words literally in his description of Rembrandt's (Vienna) self-portrait (p570), I may have to take something back that I stated in a long-ago posting.

Some time ago, I visited the great Frick Museum near Central Park in New York City, and took a docent-led tour of the highlights of the collection. There were several Rembrandts there, and I clearly remember the tour guide pointing out that the hands in a particular self portrait were not his. It was explained that Rembrandt had quite small hands, and he was more than a little self-conscious of them. Therefore, whenever hands appear in any of his self portraits, they can be understood to be the hands of another person. (According to the museum docent.)

Prof. Schama's description of the (Vienna) self-portrait seems to somewhat contradict that information. "Rembrandt's aim at this time, expressed in the terse confidence of his brush strokes down the coat and the summary depiction of his big, muscular hands, was to try to register the unadorned truth; the independent master clad only in the garment of his work."

No mention of surrogate hands.

I also tried "Googling" under subjects such as Rembrandt, small hands, etc, and came up with nothing. Therefore, at this time I have to conclude that I was the victim of a particular museum tour guide's fertile imagination.

Rich

Rich - I really like that self-portrait of Rembrandt with his thumbs tucked into his belt.

Prof. Schama has me mind-boggled these next pages...so much to think about.
I love the portrait of Jan Six that Rembrandt gave him as payment for money he loaned him on his house. I'll stop, don't want to get too far ahead of the discussion.

Me too, Dr. Schama has left me eye crossed in this section.

For instance on page 567 he says, "Of course there was no crude correspondence between the gloomy temper of the times in the early 1650's and his choice of style and subject."

Er then why seque off for 5 1/2 extremely extraneous and mindnumbing introductory pages in chapter 11 into the concomitant history?

Boy. I can tell two things from this. He loves history and I can see why I'm such a dolt at it. Really.

AND small world, in searching for a DVD for my in person classes I came upon a huge History of Britain by guess who? Hahaha

Still. Love the cheese references Rich, I am, like you, Emma, a total fan of cheese, all cheese and Amsterdam in particular has some very fine cheeses.

Ok I liked Rembrandt's unapologetic self portrait too especially in comparison with the one of Nicholaes Bruyningh, but we're seeing R out of favor all of a sudden, a "likeness" not a likeness, uh oh, payment refused.

I must say that I much prefer the hastily gotten up drawing of Mr. Six to the finished engraving. I can see why he would not have liked the dog one but the finished one is not as complimentary as the engraving, to me. Which do you like best of the three?

That self portrait of R seems to say it all, actually. If I met him I don't think I'd have any problem understanding who he was, but what's all this about his EYE?

And there's a lot more, but this is my Gouda (sorry) contribution for today?! hashahaa

Oh there's so much more in these pages I find myself going back to re-read to try to grasp what Prof. Schama is telling. I do agree, he seems very fond of history (which I'm not so much) and I think he is probably a very good teacher. I hope he doesn't give us a test at the end of the book.

I really like the painting of Jan Six and the self-portrait of Rembrandt with his thumbs in his belt.

What's this about artists and poets not being on friendly terms ?

EmmaB, Thats funny about the test at the end.

Still obsessing about the Rembrandt self portrait in the Frick Collection, I came across this study of the portrait in varying light. Rembrandt's expression supposedly changes with changes in lighting.

(Give this a little time to load.)

http://www.longleaf.net/ggrow/rembrandt1/rembrandt/face6a.html

Frankly, I don't see it.

It's interesting, though, that you are asked to concentrate on "Rembrandt's eyes" to get the effect.

Rich

Rembrandt was stereoblind! He saw the world in two dimensions! This "impairment" may have helped him show such genius at working on a two dimensional canvas.

Notice his eyes pointing in two different directions in the self portrait.

http://www.hno.harvard.edu/gazette/2005/04.28/17-lazy.html

Rich

Rich - that's a great link of the changes in different light. That happens with anyone's picture. I've seen paintings where the eyes follow you across the room or anywhere you go.

My youngest grandson has a lazy eye...it seems to get less so the older he gets. It sometimes shows up in his photographs. I didn't know Gustav Klimt and Marc Chagall also had amblyopia(?). Paris Hilton also has a lazy eye (for what it's worth).

I found it interesting that Rembrandt was obscessed with books for the texture and feel of the bindings and covers and not for the writings itself. When he died I wonder where all his books went and what their titles were ?

EmmaB, you know, I think I suffer from the same condition as Rembrandt when it comes to books.

I like everything about them, the bindings, the covers, the typeface of the title on the spine, the way they SMELL (The recently published ones have the smell of promise, the older ones of stories not yet told, or wisdom yet to be learned.)

I like the way they sit next to each other on the shelf, all varying colors and sizes, each different, while at the same time, each the same. And that's before I allow myself the luxury of opening one up. What's in them is the wonderful frosting on the cake.

I can go into a video store, walk the four corners of the store and walk out finding nothing that interests me. I can look at someone's, anyone's, bookshelf and want to read each book, starting with the first one on the left and not stopping until they've all been devoured.

Rembrandt and I suffer from the same malady.

There's probably a name for it.

Rich

(Edit: My comments are probably more appropriate for the Book Nook, but the subject came up in the context of Rembrandt.)

Rich - you reminded me of this man I used to know. He went to all the yard sales and church sales just looking for old bound books that were nice looking to fill his bookcase (he never read a one of them). I'm glad you enjoy reading yours.
I've been looking for some very old books with the gold on the edges (you know the kind I mean ?) they show a painting when the pages are fanned out. I forget what that is called ?
Rembrandt included books in many of his paintings. He used them as props.

Rich, I also love your post about books, I do wish you'd copy over some of that in the Book Nook, too.

I also notice the SMELL, but thought I was the only one hahahaa Would not have mentioned it but you are totally right. I "read" a book to my 8 week old grandson the day before yesterday and he really seemed to love the pictures.

Amazing on the eye thing!!

Emma, they make a painting when the edges are fanned out? I am not sure I have heard of those! Do tell more?

Don't you all think the Jan Six of the Portrait, drawing next to the old woman is much more flattering than the finished etching second state? He looks like a girly man in the second state and like a rich young fellow in the one next to the woman.

We're actually tho getting a little ahead of ourselves page wise but who can stop reading at this point?

Emma, apparently there is a huge market for bound editions which match, according to decorators but the contents of those books are not always something you'd care to read. I seem to recall the Windsors had such a library but actually read very little, that is the Duke and Duchess. Mostly for show.

What did you all make of the statement on my page 568, facing the Goldweigher's Field page:

Since the Night Watch, Rembrandt had decided that a "rough" rather than a "smooth" manner was more likely to establish an active engagement with the spectator, with the viewer participating in the imaginative "completion" of the work rather than simply being confronted with it.

In other words is he saying that Rembrandt decided to paint like Agatha Christie wrote, that is, sketch out and let the viewer (or reader in her case) flesh in what they think is there? Christie is famous for being able to delineate a character in very few words and almost no descriptions, thus engaging the reader's imagination completely, but I did not realize it happens in art, too.

Does it?

I love the smell of leather bound books but I don't buy many of those anymore as they're more expensive...unless...it's an art book. I haven't seen any real leather bound art books in a very long time.

Ginny ~ Imagine the Duke and Duchess of Windsor having a library
of books just for show

The edges of those books I'm talking about are gold gilded and I'm sure they're leather bound as well. When you fan out the pages there is a picture there. I'm not sure but I think it's printed at the time the book is bound. I will try to see if I can find what that is called (for now I've forgotten). They're collectors. I look at book sales and church sales as most people don't realize what it is ...so they pass them by.

I think the finished oil painting of Jan Six is excellent.
I didn't get it with the Goldweigher's Field. What happened to the gold weigher ?
As to Rembrandt's painting and letting the viewer fill in what he sees. Yes that was very true. The more comfortable Rembrandt got with his own style, he did leave a lot to the imagination. All of my computer painting is from my imagination and not very detailed.

Some information on paintings when book edges are fanned click here and here for an examples of "Fore Edge Painting". Sir Harry Page of Manchester, England, who was the foremost collector of fine Victorian fore-edge paintings. Some show scenes that appear when fanned in either direction. I like those that have a gilded edge and when the book is closed there is no trace whatsoever of the painting. Read more here.

Emma! For heaven's sake, I have never heard of such a thing, ever. And I am not imagining how it would be, I have read your first and last links and I see what they are SAYING but I have never seen such a thing!!

Amazing. I wish you'd put THAT in the Book Nook, I will bet you a lunch nobody has ever heard of it either! I see they are quite rare, I wonder....I really would like to see one in action, how can you tell what it IS at a book sale, that is to pick it up and FAN because if you don't you can't see the painting, right?

I have seen books with those marbled edges before and probably passed over this very thing. I have gilt edged books but nothing like that. I wonder where I can get one without paying a million dollars, why are they not making new ones?

Or are they?

Amazing what you can learn in SeniorNet's book discussions!

On the Gold Weigher's Field, maybe that's the field behind his house and he happens to be a gold weigher by trade? Like a pawn shop?

Did they have the Mummer's Parade on television this New Years?

And as if we needed another reason to visit Amsterdam, check This out! Roman Road Found 30 Miles SE of Amsterdam!

Ginny ~ that's right, you cannot see the painting or paintings without fanning the pages. From now on, whenever you see an old book with gilt edges...pick it up and fan it

I've only ever seen one for real but I'm always looking. A lot of religious and poetry books have gilt edges but no paintings. I have a rather old small white leather bible with the gold edges but no painting.
I don't know why they stopped making books with fore-edge paintings...maybe it's because they're invisible unless you know about it ?
I've never been to the Book Nook. Feel free to post the info in that discussion. I bet lots there know of this bookbinding technique.

I didn't see a Mummer's Parade on TV this New Years. I used to love those when I lived in Phila.

That's really interesting about the ancient Roman road found in the Netherlands, perhaps used until the 4th century. That would be something to see.

Prof. Schama liked the oil painting of Jan Six too. I love the way he described it.

EmmaBarb, that was a most interesting post. When I first saw the annotation, and read about "fanning the pages", I thought you were going to tell us about the early books on linear animation, or "flip books" as they are now called.

When I was at school - - - a looong time ago - - - we used to defile our class books by drawing a stick man in the top right corner of the pages. If you did it right, he could be made to walk by flipping the pages quickly. This was an early form of animation.

There is more information on this art at : - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flip_book
I believe this was the origin of the expression "going to the flicks" or going to the "movies".

Brian

Adrbri (Brian) -- tsk tsk

I used to do that too in the lower right corner.
Interesting link about flip books (or flick book). Some of us here in SrNet use software called "Animation Shop" where we fool around with animation. It's a lot of fun !

I thought movies were referred to as flicks because the early ones definitely flickered?

Who knows?

Let's move ahead 10 pages, it's the weekend!

I'll run off and read the next 10, let's go up to page 584, which is the page facing the huge full page portrait (in fact I think I'll include page 585, since it's a full page plate hahaha) of Aristotle Contemplating the Bust of Homer, a very famous piece!

Lots of plates in this read. Wonder why Aristotle is dressed the way he is, don't you love the silver ring shining?

More anon.....

I used to do that, too. Usually a little stick figure man running and jumping over a hurdle. The higher he jumps, the more comical it looks. You know, a package of 3M post-it notes are good for making those little cartoons.

On Rembrandt. The new $41 million wing at the Phoenix Art Museum will be showing an exhibition in March entitled "Rembrandt and the Golden Age of Dutch Art." There will be 14 works by Rembrandt, himself. I already have tickets, and am looking foreward to attending. All that I've learned about Rembrandt in this SeniorNet discussion should make the experience even more enjoyable.

Rich

Wow, Rich, we look forward to hearing how it was and what you've seen! I am sure they will not allow photos but we have an entire book of 700 photos, surely some of these will be in there!@

We'll be through the discussion in March (I think or nearing the end) but we can leave it open, a perfect denouement to the entire thing!

We should still be immersed in Rembrandt at that time.

Rich

Great! I think you are right, I was figuring 702 pages, about 10-12 weeks more depending on if we keep to the 10 per week, (which I had planned to possibly increase to 12 or 15) but either way, that will be perfect!

So, Jan Six was married to Dr. Tulp's daughter...we all remember him don't we.

Didn't we discuss the Bust of Homer before ?

Rich - I sure wish I could view that Phoenix Art Museum new wing and the Rembrandt exhibit with you. Please let us know how you enjoyed the paintings....knowing what you know now. The timing should be perfect for the end of this discussion.

I found out that the Rembrandt/Rijksmuseum traveling exhibit visits three cities in the US. It was shown in Dayton, Ohio, moving to Phoenix, then, later in the year, to Portland, Oregon.

The Dayton exhibit closed on January 7.

The Phoenix exhibit opens on January 28.

Rich

No East Coast! I'm behind on my pages, Emma, but will catch up eftsoons!

(p. 585)
The "Aristotle with a Bust of Homer" at the N.Y. Metropolitan Museum of Art (enlarge the image as much as you can since it's very dark). The medallion depicting Alexander the Great, hanging from the heavy gold chains, appears to have an end clasp that allows you to hang several bobs or change them at will.
The little golden pinkie ring is cute.
I love the capacious white and gold sleeves in the Rembrandt painting...they're magnificent and probably fun to paint.

Yes, we did discuss it before, briefly. I had commented that I had a vague recollection of that painting having some notoriety, such as being stolen, years ago.

It turned out that it wasn't stolen. How it made the news was the fact that when it changed owners in the early 1960's, it became the most expensive painting ever sold (at the time). I think the painting even made the cover of Time Magazine that week.

I have some time, today, and hope to get caught up on the reading.

Rich

on a subject of average interest, and then, in a sentence, tell us more about Rembrandt than he might have in the entire last chapter.

I find such a sentence in the discussion of his relationship with Jan Six.

"Rembrandt had many pupils, assistants, and patrons, but few friends."

Rich

the author set the scene at Messina as he described how Rembrandt's "Aristotle" painting arrived in Italy. I felt like I was there in the shipyard with the scorched hills and gnarled olive trees framing the waterfront.

Rich

Prof. Schama writes of the Aristotle painting....."the golden chain of being", seems to link all three figures in mutual admiration.
Alexander as a child had been Aristotle's most famous pupil. How then did he get on the medallion on the end of the chain as a warrior ?

Alexander was a student of Aristotle, but Alexander died at a young age; 36 I think. Aristotle actually outlived Alexander, so, in Aristotle's old age, Alexander would have been "history" and there would have been more than a few coins and medals about with Alexander's image. So it's possible that an old Aristotle could have been carrying a medal with Alexander's profile.

I like the way that Rembrandt illuminated the gold chain. Thanks, EmmaB, for posting that painting so we could enlarge it. The chain is another example of the "impasto" technique, where he piled the pigment on the canvas to create a bright dimensional effect. (Thanks, again, EmmaB, for explaining "impasto" to us early in the Rembrandt discussion.)

I wish they used a different word for that technique. I can't help but get a strange craving for Italian food whenever the word "impasto" is mentioned.

Rich

Rich - thanks, makes sense. I remember Alexander died at an early age.

Piling on the pure pigment brings everything forward and it's usually white for the brightest highlight with the shadows being a bit darker of course. Lighter colors bring things forward, darker colors push things back (in the shadow). But you already know that.
You must like pasta huh Me too.

Well here I sit, waiting for the plumber and the septic tank people, it's 8:11 pm Saturday night, what better way spend Saturday?

Me three for the pasta!! Ahahaa

Oh I like that statement, too, Rich, about few friends, but I had the idea he had a lot of friends, it's not everybody who will pick up house payments as Six did!

Thank you Emma for those great points and the link!!! So interesting about the pure pigment, there is a LOT to know about this, I actually thought Schama really gained new heights of art analysis in this section but of course, despite having read this tome so far, I know very little.

Till the plumber gets here I'll chat away but there's not a whole lot in this, is there? I've enjoyed your comments, are you all seeing the "dazzling saturated scarlet of his cloak?

Has there been any mention of how things have faded or? Emma mentioned that the painting in the link was very dark. WAS this originally dazzling? Scarlet cloak?

I liked the thought that Six projects himself into the light!

What a strange frontispiece, I love it, of the Marriage of Jason and Creusa, not in the piece!

Schama says this portrait of Six is the "greatest portrait of the 17th century!" Would you agree?

Rich I can't wait to hear of your adventures in looking at the real thing, don't spare us a minute!

I hate to say this but that looks like a scarf to me, not a glove? But I love the close up!

And then we seque into sweaty laborers, ships at sea, tempests, clouds, earthquakes, plagues and tax riots. Sigh. Hahahaa

And we're on page 585~

We've discussed the Aristotle before as you've said, want to move on??

??

Here he is. Wish us luck!

Ginny ~ oh dear, sorry about your septic tank and plumbing problems...been there done that at my other house. I used to put that stuff ? (forget what it's called) in the system every other month. That's one good thing about living here in the city.

Well next time we all (I wish) get together for dinner it will be Pasta Plus or some such restaurant.

About Schama saying the portrait of Six is the "greatest portrait of the 27th century", I'll have to agree but then I haven't seen all the portrait paintings of the 17th century.

Moving on ...Rembrandt's portrait of Aristotle/Apelles ? I'd say it's definitely Aristotle.

Yes it was quite a night.

Interesting that so many people speculate on who the bust IS, apparently Rembrandt did not title paintings or have I missed something vital?

Yes let's move on and tell you what 595 is 5 pages off 600, let's go for it!

I say let's move to page 600 and when we get there we'll celebrate!

First person in who has read to 600, holler!!

I had to read that line in the book two or three times before it sank in. The greatest portrait of the 17th century? I now know for sure that I'm not qualified to judge.

Totally different subject: Ginny, You're in for a special treat. I've never met a septic tank guy who wasn't a real character. Septic tank cleaning is a calling that is heard by few mortals, and those who I've had the pleasure of meeting have had a personality somewhere between any character in "Deliverence" and Chevy Chase's brother-in-law in "American Vacation."

Another thing they have in common: They're all philosophers.

I only have one rule about the septic tank guy. Don't drive behind his truck. (They all drip!)

Rich

hahah I agree on the Septic Tank people, the last one we had out here was just going off on his 10th cruise, but last night all bets were off, this was Roto Rooter working on Saturday night, and they call their own Septic Tank people who come immediately and leave immediately, and my husband handled all the details, and it appears that a lot more details are needed this afternoon, about $1,200 dollars worth, they now run a camera down your lines, think of that.

At any rate, I'm well out of this one! hahahaa

I'm not sure Professor Schama is likewise qualified to choose the most important portrait of the 17th century, what of Vermeer's Milkmaid?

I always thought that the "Most important portrait of the 17th century" was painted by Hals.

Brian

It seems strange to me that so little has been written in our text about Franz Hals. He was something of a contemporary of Rembrandt, although a little older.

One of the sites that I found on Hals made an interesting comparison of the two. Much of their work was similar, but "Rembrandt's music was heavy on the bass, while Hals' music had more treble."

Hals' paintings were somewhat brighter.

Rich

Ah ! page 600...only 101 pages to go. Let's Celebrate !

Ginny ~ hope you got your problems taken care of. I heard of the camera they put down the line from my recent water problems...kinda like a seweroscopy septicoscopy

I always thought the "best portrait of the 17th century was "The Laughing Cavalier" painted by Hals...such a handsome young man (the title is not quite correct, the man is smiling rather than laughing). There was little known about this young man.

Brian - that's a terrific painting by Frans Hals, thanks.

After Rembrandt, Hals was the greatest Dutch portrait painter of the 17th Century (from Roberts book "A Gallery of Masterpieces").

With Rembrandt and Hals being #'s 1 and 2 in the 17th century, why so much time on Rubens and so little on Hals?

Thanks, Brian and EmmaB for the links to the Hals paintings.

Rich

Seweroscopy septicoscopy....That's funny.

Rich

Went to the library website in order to renew my edition of "Rembrandt's Eyes" on line.

The message "Too Many Renewals" popped up.

Time to go to the library and practice my powers of persuasion.

Rich

OOPS! Sorry for the inconvenience, tell them it won't be long now as Emma says we're at 600!!!!

Golly what gorgeous portraits by Hals, Brian and Emma! Who gets to choose the most important portrait?

Rich - Oh gosh I hope your powers of persuasion works. I guess you could always have someone else check it out for you...like your wife or someone.

Maybe Prof. Schama didn't find anything interesting in the life of Hals. Or maybe Hals "only" painted portraits. Hmmmm I'll research to see if he painted any landscapes. Edit: Well I found the "Banquet of the Officers" and several other paintings by him. Oh and also "The Gypsy" which is very well known. I did not find any landscapes yet.

I think this is a self-portrait of Frans Hals...titled "The Drinker" ?

In mention of the The Drinker by Hans. Have you ever noticed the strange way he is holding his glass? It looks like the glass was added after he had painted the hands

Wow! Yes. It would be very difficult to hold a glass full of liquid like that. Also, the glass is being held at a tilt. (Note the angle of the liquid compared to the rim of the glass.)

You may have to blow the image up a bit to see that, but that can be done by just clicking on the image.

Does look like an afterthought, doesn't it?

Rich

Oh my goodness, good point Pat, thank you for the link Emma and my goodness when you click on the hand and enlarge it (thank you Rich) it's on the back of his hand? Balancing act? Amazing.

How did the renewal of the book go, Rich? Is somebody anxiously awaiting it?

The library meeting went well. My boyish charm prevailed, and I still have the book. I will have to turn it in immediately if someone requests it. No one has requested that particular book since I first checked it out some time ago.

Rich

patwest ~ you're very observant. Yes the glass is being held in a strange way and it would be my guess it was added as an afterthought.

Glass was probably painted with a half-paste...maybe even by someone other than the artist. I have a book of funny famous paintings where someone took the liberty of adding things.

Rich - glad you were able to get the book out again at the library. Wouldn't it be fun to put a note inside the book and direct the next reader to this discussion Kind of like putting a message in a bottle.

Edit: Oh I was too late to add this.
What is a half-paste ? In the book by Joe Sheppard "How to Paint like the Old Masters" he mentions the half-paste technique. This works wonderful for painting grapes as well as glass (I love painting grapes). Medium is mixed with white and a little black (if memory serves me) and put on very thin. You're just glazing it on because you want the background image to show through. Then the highlights are pure white.

It seems that there were were also art lovers at the time who did not appreciate Rembrandt's Portrait of Jan Six, the "greatest portrait of the 17th century." His style was called "rough," "loose," and a thoughtful phrase from the author, "calculated nonchalance."

Because of Rembrandt's supposedly nonchalant style, the "Aristotle" painting did not go over well with his Italian patron, who called it "mezzo finito" ... half finished. I was surprised to learn that it was made up of several paintings cobbed together with stitching that the patron called "too horrible for words." Then to show his audacity, Rembrandt told him to hang the painting in a place so lighted that the stitching would not be so obvious.

All this after billing the patron four times what an Italian painter would have charged for the same commission.

Rembrandt either had a lot of nerve, or his impending bankruptcy had made him desperate.

Rich

I love the discussion, though my book is still packed. I haven't caught up yet, but wanted to comment about the lazy eye.

EMMABARB: if your grandson has lazy eye, are they trying to correct it? I have lazy eye -- nothing was done as a child. The result is that my brain learned to look out of only one eye at a time. I can look out of either eye, but not both (Apparently it's more common to lose the sight of one eye).

I don't know if I see the world in two dimensions -- it seems three dimensional to me. It mostly only bothers me in driving and going through tight spaces. because I look mostly out of my left eye, I think I am further left than I am, and get too close on the right. It's a minor nuisance, but if it can be corrected, it should be.

Rich - I believe Rembrandt's impending bankruptcy made him desperate to use what materials he had available.

JoanK ~ nothing has been done to correct my grandson's lazy eye. Some people do grow out of it. It doesn't always show but it seems to be more noticable in photographs. It has not kept him from doing anything...he's a "A-B" student and quarterback on his high school football team. Last season he took a bad hit to the head and they had him transported to the Trauma Unit by helicopter. He said he never knew he had ever been on the helicopter.

Ah well, nothing much in this section, was it? Welcome back Joan K!!

Thank you for the half paste, Emma (you can paint my grapes any day!! hahaaha), and sorry for your grandson, that sounds serious, I hope he's not had any fracture?

And Rich with the boyish charm, it's a race against time to see who will come into the library DEMANDING the book, we must push on, especially since there's not a whole lot IN this chapter but foreboding doom: Rembrandt has been served.

And Brian with the Hals, back on the ice again? I'm getting to where I hate the cold, you must really bundle up!

I just admit I find myself irritated to death in this one by Dr. Schama's somewhat shameless need to veer off into Cumae, he's got something of an obsession about getting off the point. Am I the only one found SKIMMING? I bet I read that paragraph about Cumae a billion times, DETERMINED to punish myself and read this totally extraneous material.

I am not sure I would be pleased by something patched together, either, but I bet it's worth a billion dollars now, don't you? Now I'd like to go to the Hague again to see this painting, I've never seen it, have any of you?

Hang it in a poor light. Hahaahaaaaaaaaaaaaaa THAT takes chutzpah!

So thick and extraneous is Schama's prose that when he began his riff on Rembrandt's ship not having come in and his extrapolations and questions thereupon, after mentioning the two loans from loan sharks, I almost but not quite missed this one:

For that matter how had Rembrandt managed to spend his way through Titus's share of Saskia's legacy, a full 20,000 guilders?

He's spending his child's inheritance?

Jeepers. On the one hand 1,600 guilders is a "fabulous sum," and on the other he's spent 10 times that?

And so the "coils of his ruin began to rope themselves around him every more tightly."

I'm in sympathy with his loan problems, actually, but not with his methods of spending his child's inheritance and keeping other things before this demand for payment from Jan Six. Something's not quite right here?

But he was granted a cessio bonorum, which means his own character was seen as good!!! So I think in this I'm in sympathy with him, the matter of Titus and the will, however, seems seamy, no?

Oh dear, so he's declared Bankruptcy and an Inventory is being made, which we still have today, that must have been very depressing and degrading. I guess he did feel flayed like the ox.

Let's move on past the Polish rider to page 610, or the page in which we have a likeness of little Titus, who, I THINK actually took over Rembrandt's management, didn't he? At one time? We'll find out!

On to page 610!!!

I will say that Schama, with his oblique way, HAS painted a somewhat frantic picture here of debt closing in, I like that even tho I have to reread whole passages because they seemed extraneous to me. I'd hate to see professor Schama's attic (I expect it looks like mine) hahahaa

This just suddenly occurred to me, would anybody like to play a game? What would be your best guess of the number of pages in this book ONLY relegated to Rembrandt? If everything else were removed?

100?

So much thoughtful stuff to comment on, but so little time. I'm off to a digital photography seminar, today.

I think "Aristotle" is hanging in the Metropolitan Museum in New York. Its acquisition in 1960 or '61 was the occasion for the painting being featured on the cover of an issue of "Time Magazine."

Rich

Whoops! There you go, wrong Homer! See what all that verbiage does to me? I was going on the Homer in the Hague, Inote on page 593) not the Homer and Aristotle, mea culpa, that one in our current Latin book for some reason!

Too many Homers! Or too few brains! OR too much verbiage! I vote for the last two in my own case!

Ginny ~ My grandson is still playing and enjoying sports...what can I say. Thanks for your concern.

Actually it's recommended to never hang a painting in a direct light. What's really bad is hanging those lights over the top of the frame directing the light right on the painting. So hanging it in a poor light is not really that bad.

I've completely lost track of Rembrandt's wife and her estate and their child's inheritance. I seem to recall the son Titus took over the financial management for Rembrandt so he could paint and not worry about it.

Anyway I'm glad I have heat and they were able to come here Saturday and find the problem right away. I was really freezing. What's next ?

I agree with you Ginny. There is so much extra material and the good professor veers off the path so often. Facts I would consider important [like Rembrandt's spending his son's inheritance] get buried.

Re you game, Ginny. Maybe 75 pages are devoted to Rembrandt???

Sorry about the mixups on museums and paintings, Ginny. My fault. I had the wrong painting in mind when you were discussing "Homer."

So we have our Rembrandt now bankrupt. That was a serious thing in those times. It's not like the bankruptcy of today when business ABC declares bankruptcy, stops paying its creditors, and closes down, only to open for business a month later in another location as business XYZ. In those days it usually meant being forced onto the street with the clothes on your back as your only possession. It will be interesting to see how Rembrandt wiggles out of this problem. I'm not going to read ahead to find out, because the number on the top of the page I'm reading says 600! Yaaay!

(Edit: Just noticed that the top of this discussion page now says up to p610. So onward!)

Why did he paint the "Slaughtered Ox?" Would you hang that in your living room?

"The Polish Rider," on the other hand, would look good over someone's sofa (not mine, because I'm going for a Southwestern theme). Prof Schama leads us to believe that there is something ominous about the construction of the painting, the innocent young rider on an other-worldly looking pale horse. I'm reminded of something from the four horsemen of the apocalypse. "...and behold a pale horse, and the rider was death."

Rich

I hate paintings like that Slaughtered Ox...yuk !
I don't like the Polish Rider because of the cut-off tail and then pinning it beside the mane as an ornament.

"behold a pale horse, and the rider was death". Yes. when the term "pale horse" is used in English (instead of "white horse"), it almost always refers to death. If Schama used it, I'm sure that's what he meant.

I think I might have misled you. Schama commented on the contrast between the ominous looking horse and the young innocence of the rider. I picked up on the other-worldly appearance of the horse, and took it further. The words about the pale horse and death are my rambling rhetoric.

Rich

Belated happy birthday wishes to you.

Rich

thank you so much! Sorry to be AWOl but hope to rebound in the morning! We probably actually need to push on, what say you all? Anybody have anything else to say about up to and including page 610?

The painting of Rembrandt's son Titus is very dear. Titus was actually older when he sat for it but Rembrandt painted him as he remembered him. Rembrandt's missing his family.

the painting which the author calls heartbreakingly beautiful, "Jacob Blessing the Sons of Joseph," and how Joseph is greatly disappointed that his father is blessing his younger son first, reminds me of how important the blessings of one's elders were in the past.

Respect for the opinions and blessings of aged parents or grandparents seems to have severely declined even in my lifetime. There are probably a lot of reasons the sociologists can give us, the greater mobility of our society, the breakup of the extended family, the "warehousing" of the elderly in assisted living facilities etc.

Very sad.

The painting, as Prof Schama says, is heartbreakingly beautiful. I would add that the heartbreak comes to you on more than one level.

Rich

Yes that painting of Titus IS poignant and strange in that as the book says he was 15 but looks much younger in the painting. I must admit it was hard to stop reading and plunged into 611 where little Titus is declared an ORPHAN?!? And appointed a guardian, am having some problem understanding why?

Otherwise I had a good bit of trouble seeing the skeleton horse in the Polish Rider and the Eucharist in the Anatomy Lesson, I may be too much of a Phillistine! Hahaa

Did not follow well the arguments on the "wittingly" blessing of the younger child contrasted with the loss of eyesight, not sure what Schama was implying but I have always loved the story of Jacob and Esau and certainly in this blessing Jacob is repeating perhaps his own blessing? I don't know why that Jacob and Esau story has always fascinated me.

But now I'm fascinated by the Chamber of Orphans and would like to read on, let's try for the bottom of page 620, (two of whose 10 pages are full page plates), which in the paperback is across from Jacob Wrestling With an Angel. Our Rembrandt is watching his house stripped and worrying (apparently) about his little boy (wasn't Titus often sickly as well?), let's move on, the plot thickens. Finally.

Ginny ~ I was an orphan at a very young age when my father died. The orphanage I was put in required that one parent be dead.

What was really sad to me was how Titus had to stand by and watch as his world was coming apart with his father's bankruptcy. I don't think the laws have changed all that much today as far as selling off your possessions to pay your bills. I've never been bankrupt (thank goodness).

I now have my book on the dining room table along with my reading glasses so I can read whenever I'm waiting for something.

did not go well. On second thought, who ever heard of a bankruptcy that went WELL? On third thought, I remember read in a morning paper of Donald Trump declaring bankruptcy of some sort, and that night, seeing him in a $4000 custom made Armani suit on one of his TV programs, grinning like a Cheshire Cat.

It was a sad story about Titus trying to save his father's beloved ebony and silver mirror and breaking it just after carefully ferrying it across the Amstel. Seven more years bad luck for Rembrandt?

Rich

That was sad about the mirror breaking after Titus had been so careful with it.

Titus...if you click next you will also see "Juno"

(pps 618-619) Magnificent self-portrait of Rembrandt and Juno. I left the book open on my dining room table to these two pages to be admired every time I walk by.

on p618. That's the one I saw at the Frick Museum where the docent told us Rembrandt painted another man's hands on his body, because he was self-conscious about his small hands!

With just a few words, a museum tour guide can give you a bit of misinformation that you carry with you for years.

Got to get over it.

Rich

Thank's for the link to the paintings. My Schama is still packed in one of the 34 cases of books waitng to be unpacked. the Titus is amazing. I've been looking forward eagerly to his late painting, which I love. And I'm missing most of the discussion!

Thanks EmmaBarb, now there's a book on Rembrandt that's ALL REMBRANDT !!
And when it's finally completed, you can throw your Schama away.
http://www.rembrandtpainting.net/index.htm
Brian

You really are a bibliophile. I guess that would take some serious wall space to bookcase all those volumes.

Brian, Thanks for the new Rembrandt book reference. You know, although our book is a tome, and the good Professor does tend to go off onto verbal tangents, especially about Rubens, it's beginning to sink into my head that I have learned a lot about Rembrandt by reading it and participating with you all in this discussion group.

It's not over, but the last page (p#703 in my book) is rapidly approaching.

Rich

Since I'm a collector of art books this Rembrandt book will find a place on one of my bookshelves. Some day I want to check out the many references listed at the end. I started doing that at the beginning and found it was taking too much time.

(p. 616)..."one-armed Flemish landscape painter, Martin Rijckaert"...
also known as Marten Ryckaert (1587-1631). Sir Anthony van Dyck oil painting "The Painter".

I tried to access that site, and was sternly told that I don't have permission to go there. Is there a password or secret handshake that I have to know?

Rich

Thank you, Pat, for doing your magic.

Nice link, EmmaB. You can clearly see that Rembrandt was influenced by that Rijckaert work. Even the lighting is similar, but it's the right hand draped over the arm of the chair that puts the similarity of composition over the top.

Rich

Rich - I've not been able to get back into that website either today, I wonder why ? Perhaps if you just http://www.google.com and click the "Images" tab where you can type in the name it will be available...that's what I did.
Edit: patwest ~ thanks much for fixing the link.

Just a note to say (welcome back, Joan K and Brian!!) that I've put a link to the previous Rembrandt's Eyes discussion up in the heading above, right under Emma's beautiful graphic of Rembrandt's 400th, back in a mo....

the actual paintings of both the "Rembrandt Self Portrait" and "Juno."

I have worn you all out about the hands on the "Rembrandt Self Portrait" that I saw in the Frick Museum in New York, but the "Juno" painting on the facing page in our book has been haunting me. Suddenly I remembered that I had seen "Juno" at the Armand Hammer Museum in Los Angeles. Searching the archives with Ginny's help, I found my posting of December 4, 2005 where I reported seeing it.

"Directly across the room from the first Rembrandt was another Rembrandt; a painting of the Roman goddess Juno. It's title was simply "Juno." The story behind the painting is interesting. His model for this piece was Rembrandt's housekeeper, who later became his mistress, and even later bore him a child. She looked a little "beefy" to me, but I guess Flemish painters at the time liked their ladies a little "Rubenesque.'"

I wish I knew, at the time that I had the opportunity to see the actual paintings, all that I have since learned about Rembrandt. (For instance, Rembrandt was technically not a Flemish painter.)

Rich

Here's Juno at the Armand Hammer Museum.
http://www.hammer.ucla.edu/collections/2/work_6.htm

Rich, You stirred my memory. We visited the Armand Hammer Museum in '54 and I still had the catalog. My husband was fascinated with anything Hammer did or wrote. Hammer had great success in the financial markets of the world and used his wealth in many philantropic ways.

Now I'm near LA, I'll have to check it out.

Thank you Pat, I have never seen that painting in person. I did not know that Charlie had that interest, he was a most interesting man!!

I agree, also, that this is a poignant chapter, and Schama really wrings up the emotions here, you can't help but feel sorry for little Titus who ran around and tried to get some of his dad's things back. Very sad, nice little seque Schama does openly wondering if Huygens knew about this? Interesting. Wonder about the "sheep" bidders, where were Rembrandt's friends as well?

The breaking of the mirror is one of those heartbreaking things that happen to children but a mirror after all is not the point if you have the frame, still, I am sure we can all relate to it.

I don't have any problem with him naming Titus as owner of the house to avoid its being taken but the three wills made me pause. Perhaps there was a good reason for them.

I can see, Rich, why you wish you had read this before seeing the painting, I felt the same way about Pompeii after we did the Cambridge, it didn't seem the same place even, made such a difference to me.

I'm not seeing Jupiter? What do you all see when you look at Rembrandt's self portrait facing his wife in the book but done apparently 3 years before? (the Juno?) I am seeing something in the EYES again tho Schama has not mentioned it, let's discuss these two paintings?

On page 617 Schama says "The insolvent and the fallen woman proclaim themselves as the king and queen of the immortals, invulnerable to the wounds inflicted by mere men."

Let's discuss what YOU see in these two paintings, or what others have seen? And then compare it to Schama?

And I'm not sure what he's saying about Rubens, "the agitated theatricality of Rubens, at the same time that he must have abandoned much hope of ever attainting a Rubensian degree of rank and respectability.

He sure is "on about" Rubens, isn't he? I mean at every turn we have Rubens Rubens Rubens. I am not sure if these are Dr. Schama's own conclusions or ? I don't know what they are.

I don't see Jupiter in the self portrait, can we discuss what YOU see?

http://www.cbc.ca/photogallery/world/295/?dataPath=/photogallery/world/gallery_295/x ml/gallery_295.xml&startImage=10

Click on the #11 image

Brian

The art of the genius makes Rembrandt a "legislator of art".

Rich - When I first saw Armand Hammer I thought of baking soda (Arm & Hammer ha )
How wonderful you got to see the actual Rembrandt self-portrait and Juno.

JoanK ~ please (pretty please) take some pictures for us to see.

patwest ~ thanks for that link to the UCLA Hammer Museum. Much brighter than the link I posted. I think it's been over cleaned though. A lot of the color is gone and left with mostly the underpainting.

Brian - I've seen some of that snow on TV. I don't have the latest Flash and it won't let me see your photo gallery.

Reminds me of a time my brother was snowed in, in Montana. He was on a ranch one winter taking care of this man's horses while he was away. Helicopters came in and dropped bales of hay (there were pictures in the paper and on tv). My brother dug a tunnel in the snow from the house to the barn so he could get back and forth several times a day. The man was so grateful when he returned that he offered his daughter in marriage so my brother would stay there.

I like these two paintings...Rembrandt's self-portrait and Juno. I have the book open on my dining room table where I can admire them. I think this is the best self-portrait of the fifty or so that he painted.

Brian, The snow scene photo of Amsterdam does look like an old Dutch painting.

Pat, Yes Armand Hammer was quite an entrepreneur, and an interesting character. During the height of the Cold War, he managed to become very good friends with Nikita Krushchev. The communist and the capitalist, good friends...Go figure.

You visited the Armand Hammer museum in 1954, and you still have the catalog? You really don't throw things away, do you?

Soooo, EmmaB, don't leave us hanging! Did your brother marry the rancher's daughter?

Rich

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arm_&_Hammer

Brian

Rich - ahhhh, he said thanks but no thanks, and got out of there real quick !

That Armand Hammer guy was smart in business wasn't he. If he had his license to practice medicine I wonder why he never did ? Well at least he succeeded in buying a sizable minority interest in Arm and Hammer and eventually sat on its board of directors.

Brian - thanks for that link.

Too bad, EmmaB. It sounded like the plot to a story that ends with "...and they lived happily ever after."

Brian, That is a great bit of trivia. Imagine, Armand Hammer invested heavily in Arm and Hammer Co. just as a joke. I love it!

And we thought we were only going to learn about Rembrandt here.

Rich

Rich - my brother was married...five times. He was an easy catch

As he got older he learned to run faster (ha).

I must say I have discovered a lot (thanks to all of you and the Internet) while reading this book.

Those of us who are enjoying learning about Dutch history: there's more to come. Come and join Marni and me in learning about the Dutch colonization of Manhattan.

This is a part of history that has been basically "lost" for hundreds of years, since the English captured Manhattan from the Dutch, and started writing history from their point of view. Now, the records of the Dutch colony are being translated, and giving us a whole new picture.

"The Island at the Center of the World" proposed for March 15

I've started the book, and it starts with Henry Hudson going to Amsterdam to work for the Dutch. It's fun to look at the same period through different eyes and vantage points.

it appears that Rembrandt may have developed a renewed interest in religious works, since bankruptcy became his destiny. (What do they say about there being no athiests in foxholes?)

"Jacob Wrestling with the Angel" just does not look like a Rembrandt to me. For that matter, the angel looks more female than male, but they tell us the painting IS a Rembrandt, and the angel IS a male. Why would angels have gender at all? Do they procreate?

Rich

I agree, Rich. There's quite a difference in that one and in the self portrait, isn't there? Strange, the idea being that it's in a dream, I am not sure why he was struggling with the angle in the first place, ( I DO know the story), but what was the struggle?

I'll go out on a limb and say what I see in the self portrait. In the first place the "fallen woman" is presented as a queen of beauty and grace, I wonder if that's the way he saw her and so painted her or if his painting is for the people: in effect, saying as Schama seems to think: Phillistines! You can't see what I can see.

However I see something different in the self portrait, the mouth for instance (despite having read all these pages I still don't know for instance what the dress he's portrayed himself in means. If a person is watching his household possessions carried off , would he dress in fur cape (IS that a fur cape? Schama says it's gold!) or chains or jewels?

The costume appears strange to me, what sort of get up is that? Almost an apron? I know it means something but it seems rough, no frills, no lace, no big collar with pleats. No chains no hat with plume, and I don't see this gold cape.

It's the mouth, there's a decidedly bitter turn to the right side, as you stare at the painting, but the left side is saying, oh it doesn't bother me. The right side is drawn up, like anybody would do today but the left side seems to be saying I can handle it.

But to me it's really the eyes. If you get a magnifying glass and peer at it closely, the eye on the right as you face the painting is full of pain and it's amazing how it does not look directly at the viewer but turns away, almost in pain. When you look at the eye on the left as you face the painting, it seems a shock that it, too, won't look AT you. HER eyes are looking directly AT us, his don't. Even the left eye as you look at the painting is full of sadness, but it's on the side of the face on which the mouth seems to say I can do this, forget about it, but they eye says it's costing me, big time.

I got curious about the two sides of the same mouth and while it was under magnification I divided the face into two halves. The right side as you face the painting is in darkness. It's really dark and STRANGELY enough, the eye seems to suddenly be looking more at you. And then the next time, not. It's strange.

I need to go back and look at the other self portraits and see who they are looking at.

The left side as you face the painting, the side in the light, where the twist of the mouth says, I can handle this, bring it on, seems overcome by the sad evasive expression in the eye, he's going to overcome, but he's not going to do it straightforwardly, or at least that's what I see in this painting.

Schama says, at the beginning of Chapter 12:

So Rembrandt naturally paints himself in 1658, at the nadir of his fortunes, godlike, enthroned, mantled in lustrous gold, staring down presumptuous mortals, his lips pursed, a suggestion of lordly amusement playing about his eyes. There is not the least trace of defensiveness, much less self=pity, in the great Frick self-portrait. Instead of being diminished by his misfortunes, Rembrandt seems to have become augmented by them, visibly expanding before our eyes like a genie, pressing hard against the perimeter of the picture space as though challenging it to contain the force of his authority.

I just don't see that, what do YOU see?

In the Juno portrait I see someone Rembrandt truly loved and put her on a pedestal. Rembrandt's self-portrait on the opposite page...I see someone who was not going to let his debts and bankruptcy get him down, afterall he was a master painter and he believed in himself.

Rich - When I first looked at that painting of "Jacob Wrestling with the Angel" I wasn't sure if the angel was male or female...but then there are angels that have no gender. But wasn't that a somnambulist encounter (an angel episode) ?

about what I see in Rembrandt's self portrait. His expression is stern. I wouldn't, for instance, want to be confronted with such an expression from a father whose daughter I wanted to marry.

It's hard to separate what we know about his life at the time from the portrait. He's in his later years, his wife is dead, his mistress is in an institution,he's lost his home, and the creditors are circling like sharks. All this shows in his face. But Rembrandt still portrays himself with dignity..the fine clothes the staff, the regal posture, the penetrating gaze, and just the smallest hint of a smile. Not a friendly smile, but a grim one that says, "I'll get even with you all."

As far as "Juno" is concerned, I agree with EmmaB. He has portrayed Hendrickje as a queen; another "in your face" from Rembrandt.

I think Prof. Schama is thinking along these same lines when he sums up the two paintings with... "The insolvent and the fallen woman proclaim themselves as the king and queen of the immortals, invulnerable to the wounds inflicted by mere men."

Rich

R lived earlier, but Scama lives in the 21st century. If he refers to R's mistress as the "fallen woman", why isn't R the "fallen man"?

hahahaa JoanK! Great comments, all!

I love what you all are seeing in the two portraits and I believe you have understood a lot more of the book than I have!! Hahahaa

But let's mush on? Dare we? It's the weekend and the end is in sight and we've done it so well thus far! Let's go now to page 631, I seem to see several works by other artists again, oh dear. Antonio Tmepesta after Otto van Veen, that's the page we'll want to stop at, page 631 in the paperback. Let's give it a go, only 7 more batches to go!!

I can't believe we're actually going to finish this oeuvre! AND it's taken us longer than it did Rembrandt to create a masterpiece hahaha

If you could channel any one of these greats, Rubens, Rembrandt, etc., etc., back from the past, which one would it be?

I don't still STILL feel I know anything ABOUT the man? About the MAN himself, but let's read on, we've got 70 more pages!

One of my regrets about the book is that I have not had time to read ALL of the copious footnotes in the back, such a shame, they are fabulous!

I was thinking the same thing Ginny. We are almost finished, yeah!!!. I agree with you - we know almost nothing about Rembrandt. So much of the material on Rembrandt seems to be unsupported supposition by the author. A few times when I checked the notes in the back of the book there was no reference to the author's fuzzy fact. I think Rembrandt was a very private person and didn't write down his innermost thoughts or communicate them to others, and Schama's attempt to understand the motivation behind his works and actions fails miserably. I thought Schama did a better job of Rubens.

Bingo, suec!! My sentiments exactly, and so well written!! You've summed my position up brilliantly.

It's always difficult to write about a figure about whose private life little is known, the author/ historian has to piece together bits and pieces and make conclusions, and then those conclusions are based really on the.....author himself, that is, the author's standing and knowledge and depth of scholarship in the field. That's one reason why the new Imperium by Robert Harris, while a good read, a good novel, starts out with unsupported conclusions about Augustus which leave you scratching your head and saying WHA?

But Harris is a novelist and he's not a classicist and it shows. The Caesar biography by Goldsworthy is so much better.

However Harris was writing FICTION so he can say what he wants. If he wants to conclude authoritavely that Augustus was a transvestite, he can.

But Schama is not writing fiction, I agree with you totally!

Now that we're almost finished (and apparently are going to look at more artists comparatively) what do YOU all think about the unsupported conclusions Professsor Schama has written?

If I were going to channel an art figure I'd have to pick Rembrandt over say Michelangelo or Da Vinci because he's more of an enigma to me now then he was when I started the book.

I was just going to post my salute to Suec. Sue, You hit the nail on the head!

We know ABOUT Rembrandt, but we still don't know Rembrandt.

Maybe that will all come in the approximately 80 pages that we have yet to read.

Rich

Yeah that's more or less pushed ME on this far too, and I'm glad I read this, and in such sterling company, it's been a blast but I know almost no more about Rembrandt than I did when I toured his house.

I agree with you Ginny, Rich and Suec - - - we know little of Rembrandt the MAN, but we have learned a little about his eyes, and quite a lot about his works, and how he produced them.

But when it comes to choosing someone from the past to bring back to get to know better, I would have no hesitation in contacting Apelles himself.

Here's a man who was universally respected as the ultimate painter. His works were well known by many and and admired by all who saw them. He was the first to do a self-portrait - - - his "thin line" baffled Protogenes - - - Pliny said he was the greatest painter of the time - - - his painting of Alexander the Great hung in the temple of Ephesus inspite of the fact that Alexander thought it was "not a very good likeness" Alex's war horse knew better and whinnied with pleasure when he saw it.

Ptolemy one of Alexander's generals was amazed by his charcoal drawing of the court jester made by Apelles on a wall to authenticate his identity.

Too many of the Wonders of the Ancient World have been lost to us, if I could persuade Apelles to come over to us I would ask him to bring a large part of his works (oevres?) with him - - - and, while I am in fantasy mode, he could bring the Colossus of Rhodes with him.

Talking of oevres - - - the French have a habit of including ONE EGG in many of their recipes - - - 'un oef' is as good as a feast! - - - ouch!!

Brian

hahahahaa OUCH indeed, ok I'll take Appelles, but what of Polykleites? Nothing of his original works remain, only copies, like The Spear Bearer.

Or how about that Architect from Damascus whom Hadrian had kill himself when he dared to mock the Emperor's plan for the Pantheon dome, what on earth was his name, he also did Trajan's Market.

That would be Appolodorus.

Brian

RIGHT! Now HE'D be some kind of guest, but I think your persuasive argument for Appelles rules the day!

suec ~ I also agree with your #532 post about Prof. Schama doing a better job of Rubens.

I believe it's documented that there is very little correspondence from Rembrandt, or to anyone.

And I don't feel I know Rembrandt any better. In this section, Schama is the vintage, wordy Schama that we've grown to know over the previous 600 pages. He goes on at some length with descriptive details of paintings by other artists that were hung in the Amsterdam town hall, but does not show them in the text. I have a good imagination, but not that good.

I guess it's especially disappointing, because we have all finally concluded (with the help of an incisive comment by SueC) that we don't know Rembrandt. We know some things ABOUT him but we don't know HIM. If you are looking for enlightenment in these next ten pages, you are going to be disappointed.

Rich

Do you think you would recognize a Rembrandt when you saw one ?
Interesting article click here.

Thanks for the link to the book review.

Methinks the reviewer, Mr. Binstock, attended the Simon Schama School of Written Expression.

Rich

Rich - you're probably right.

One thing that I did find interesting in the current reading is Rembrandt's "Moses With the Tablets of the Law." According to the author, there was some early confusion in the translation of the Old Testament. The Hebrew word "keren" was once interpreted to mean "horns", but the proper translation probably should have been "rays of light."

The outcome of this mistranslation was that early believers thought Moses came down the mountain with tablets in his hands and horns on his head. In fact, some depictions of Moses (as in Michaelangelo's tomb for Pope Julius II) showed Moses with horns.

Old ideas die hard; so Rembrandt, as a concession to the "horns on the head" adherents, painted little tufts of hair on Moses' head so that if you would like to think they were horns, you were free to do so.

Interesting, no?

Rich

http://www.cptryon.org/hoagland/travels/stpeterchains/mosesbigcolorface-ch.jpeg

Rich

http://www.cptryon.org/hoagland/travels/stpeterchains/moses.html

Rich

Yes! Fascinating and I've seen Moses, you have to put a coin in and he's illuminated so you can take photos.

The newest issue of Smithsonian is all about Caravaggio and one of the statements in it says, you need to put a LOT of coins in so you can see the entire St. Matthew cycle!

Rich - I also found that interesting about the Hebrew word "keren". Thanks for those links. Oh I got "Forbidden" on the first one. Well I saved the link and left off the part about the .jpg as I want to read the entire thing. That second link looks fantastic...also want to read it in its entirety.

Ginny ~ Is that you in the current issue of the Bookmarks magazine that mentions SeniorNet ? If so, is there any way to read the article online ?
My issue of Smithsonian magazine hasn't arrived yet. I'll be sure to look for that article about Caravaggio.

Emma, YES! Isn't that exciting, what a job they did on that article and YES Marcie has gotten permission to display it on our site. They don't do a lot of reprinting of articles online apparently but for her they did put it up and we will all be able to read it (it's a whopper, the longest one they have ever done and you can see Professor Schama has really influenced Jane and I) soon and even order one copy from online!

It's an excellent magazine, and I have subscribed, it's a reader's paradise, thank you for asking!

VERY exciting, somewhat like how Professor Scheme feels about Rembrandt...or is it Rubens...or is it...er... hahahaa

I will be out of town from Friday thru Sunday so hope to catch up here today, and do the Schama Slog (and I mean no disprespect, I am wordier than he is and I respect attention to detail, but as suec said...well) and then Sunday night we can vault forward into page 641, how the time flies!

I have just come across another view of Rembrandt's works. You may have already seen it, but I have not noticed that it was previously referred to in our earlier discussions

http://www.artnewsonline.com/issues/article.asp?art_id=2087

Brian

I did it! I gave up on finding my copy of Rembrandt's Eyes in all my boxes and borrowed it from the local library. Now, I can stay with you for awhile. We're rteading up to 631? Back later. Off to read.

Also, Hebrew KeReN = ray of light/horn = horn/cornet that makes musical tones.

Ginny ~ I just read the article on SeniorNet's Homepage...Congratulations on a fabulous article ! That's a terrific group photo too. I'll have to look for the magazine at my book store.

Brian (Adrbi) - I read the article in your link with great interest. I hope I'm around long enough to read a book about some of his students.

JoanK ~ glad you were able to borrow the book from the library.

Here's a wonderful way to spend a couple of hours.

http://www.rembrandt-caravaggio.nl/index_en.htm

Brian

Brian: what a fantastic site!!

I'm so glad I'm able to rejoin the discussion: R's late paintings are so powerful. Jacob wrestling the angel is amazing!! Now we have a "barbarian fiest"!! I can see why the sober stodgy burghers didn't want it in their hall. It might have woken them up.

I just received the current issue of Smithsonian mag with the Caravaggio article in it. It's not included online for some reason, but this one is "Artists Behaving Badly".

Brian - thanks for the rembrandt-caravaggio link. I'm just looking at a black screen when I click on visual sensation. Should be a good exhibit to view in person.

Nice link to the Rembrandt/Caravaggio exhibit.

I just learned from watching public television that the Rijksmuseum in Amsterdam is undergoing renovation. That could explain the sudden spurt of Rembrandt traveling exhibitions, worldwide, on top of last year's Rembrandt 400th anniversary exhibits.

EmmaB, That link to "Artists behaving badly" is a riot. I think Cellini wins first prize. There must have been no law, civil or moral, that he didn't break.

Rich

"Artists behaving Badly" was fun. Makes our Rembrandt look like a piker. I remember reading Cellini's "Life" as a child (!?! I bet I didn't understand half of it. Did my parents know?)

Thanks EmmaBarb, Artists Behaving Badly was a fun link. The Manets must have had interesting family dinners.

on the story in "Bookmarks."

Rich

Welcome back, Joan K! We'll need all hands on deck for our final..er....well it remains to be seen if it's a bang at the end or something else.

Brian what a fabulous link, golly moses what you can find on the Internet, thank you.

And I agree, suec, Emma's link on Artists Behaving Badly is an eye opener! Our man is mild by comparison!!! Artistic Temperament, I had the temperament when I sat down at the piano but unfortunately not the talent. Hahaaha Thank you, Emmabarb!

Thank you Rich and Emmabarb, , you're very kind, we're really excited about the article, I can't wait to actually see it in a store, am going today! It's a great day for us here in SeniorNet's Books!

And I must admit I wasn't looking forward to this section from what you've all said and I was pleasantly surprised. Shows you what a little personal interest in the subject will do for you: Flinck!!! Who on earth ever heard of him and here he is with Dentatus, for whom I have been searching for an illustration forever, he's next up in one of the Latin classes. Schama's explanation of how you read those in Latin class but never referred to them again, except to see them in the theater (Dentatus in the theater?) was cute.

I just found an old Latin text chock full of the old stories of heroism that the Romans liked to warm themselves by the fire with for reassurance and Dentatus, Horatius, Cincinnatus, are all there. Good stories, and worthy of being painted, all of them.

I found this section illuminating. IS THERE anywhere a list of Dutch artists and the Roman subjects they address? I sure could use an index to the ancient stories depicted!

Schama has tried very hard here to present a picture of Rembrandt down but not out. It seems to me to be all hypothetical, all Schama, let's move on, did you see it that way? Putting ideas, motivations and thoughts into his head, about his own face, Schama has no way of knowing that, and about the town hall, and then Flinck dies.

Let's move on to page 641! While this may seem a poor time, in the early pages 600+ for Schama to do another segue into nothing, you have to remember he's done this all along, and this particular subject is of great interest to me: just think, there are people for whom all these segues in the book have been of fantastic interest, they must sit here and devour every page, and read all the footnotes and sources. Alas I am not one of them: let's move on to Rembrandt in the Amusement Park, up to page 641!

The END is in sight!

when I said the ten pages up to 630 would be disappointing. What I meant was, if you wanted those pages to give you any more personal insight into who Rembrandt was, you might be disappointed.

In contrast to the last ten, I'm looking forward to being riveted to the next ten pages.

EmmaB, I'm still enjoying the "Artists Behaving Badly" link. It is fun to read.

Got my tickets for a visit this Friday to the traveling Rembrandt/Dutch Masters exhibit in Phoenix. Looking forward to it.

Do you think the time will ever come when we will see the words "Dutch Masters" and not think of cigars.?

Rich

Choose your answers: Rembrandt van Rijn trivia. Oh dear, I got 2 wrong

Rich, I think you were totally right, actually. And it makes me wonder how the rest of the book seems to people, let's go look on Amazon and see what the reviews from general readers were?

OOOO Emma, good job, Rembrandt Trivia!! You only missed TWO? Wow, I can't wait to take it but there will be more than 2 missed! Now if they ask about Rubens or maybe Flinck, I might do better? hahahaa

Everybody take it and report in!

My computer won't go to the Rembrandt Trivia link. It's been doing that a lot lately. I'll click on a link, the site will flash up there momentarily, then it will be replaced by a sign that says they can't find that page. If I'm real fast with the STOP button, I can stop it on the site before the "can't find" sign comes up, but no luck on the trivia site. It goes away too fast.

It may be just as well. If EmmaB got two wrong, I'd probably get twelve wrong!

Rich

LOVE that thing! I love the way it tells you after every question if you got it right or not and then explains the answers. I missed 3 one of them not my own fault I don't think Schama covered it, and two out of stupidity!

hahaha

REMBRANDT VAN RIJN TRIVIA 1) What year was Rembrandt born?

Choose Your Answer: A: 1556, B: 1606, C: 1656, D: 1706

2) What university was Rembrandt educated at?

Choose Your Answer: A: Webster, B: Leyden, C: Cambridge, D: Vrije

3) What was the name of Rembrandt's first wife?

Choose Your Answer: A: Helena, B: Franceska, C: Hendrickje, D: Saskia

4) Rembrandt was the chief painter of what school?

Choose Your Answer: A: Italian School, B: Dutch School, C: Neoclassical School, D: Pre-Raphaelite School

5) Rembrandt moved to what city in 1631?

Choose Your Answer: A: Amsterdam, B: Rotterdam, C: Maastricht, D: Rome

6) Which of the following was one of Rembrandt's students?

Choose Your Answer: A: Ruysdael, B: Bosch, C: Fabritius, D: Terborch

7) What painter did Rembrandt study under?

Choose Your Answer: A: Bosch, B: Konick, C: Hoogh, D: Swanenburch

What was the name of Rembrandt's only surviving child?

Choose Your Answer: A: Titus, B: Philemon, C: Matthew, D: Pietre

9) Which of Rembrandt's paintings was commissioned for the new hall of the Kloveniersdoelen, the musketeer branch of the civic militia?

Choose Your Answer: A: The Mill, B: The Jewish Bride, C: The Night Watch, D: Belshazzar's Feast

10) How old was Rembrandt at the time of his death?

Choose Your Answer: A: 53, B: 63, C: 73, D: 83

Answers later,

Brian

I, too, made two mistakes. One from carelessly misreading the question, and one by not fully taking in the information that Schama, to give him his due, had lightly skimmed over (can you believe that!) in our book.

Brian

2? You failed the test with 2? I missed three and thought I was hot stuff, considering the text.

Which one did you miss that he lightly skimmed over? She asked shamelessly?

I bet it was the pupil thing!?!

Yes Ginny "it was the pupil thing" - - - I answered Bosch, and I don't mean Hieronymus. The other, we have been dealing with the dressing up of the "New Town Hall" and I jumped to the offering that was thrown Rembrandt's way, without thinking.

Now we are onto discussing THAT great work, what a terrible thing was done to the painting by "cutting it down in size". Belshazzar's Feast must have been phenomenal in its entirety.

Brian

It was the pupil question with me too. I knew it wasn't the first two and the other two I'd never heard of and don't recall Prof. Schama discussing them.

I missed two, too. (#6 & 7). I wonder how Prof S would do.

Rich - - - here are the answers for you to check your score.

!.B 2.B 3.D 4.B 5.A 6.C 7.D 8.A 9.C 10.B

Well, how'd you do?

Brian

I also got two wrong; numbers 6 and 7. Didn't recognize who he studied under or who was his student.

Spent yesterday afternoon at the Phoenix Art Museum to see the Rembrandt/Rijksmuseum exhibit. Back later with impressions.

Rich

Rich - I look forward to your impressions of the Rembrandt/Rijksmuseum exhibit.

Me, too! Back later with impressions of up to page 641, what did YOU all think of this section?!?

and its exhibit of Rembrandt and the Golden Age of Dutch Art.

The exhibit, which will be shown in three cities in the US; Dayton, Phoenix, and Portland is getting heavy attendance in Phoenix. I understand only the Monet exhibit outsold it. Your admission ticket is for a certain time of day, and they stick a color-coded time marker on you to keep track of the crowds and keep things moving.

I guess the days of leisurely museum tours led by a real guide are over for major exhibits. Now, you stand in line, someone takes your time-stamped ticket, someone else hands you a color-coded sticker which you are told to affix to your person, while another individual hands you a recorded player and gives you a twenty second course on how to operate it. If you turn to ask him a question, the line is pushing you forward and he is into his explanation to the person behind you.

That aside, the exhibit was well done. There was a lot of Dutch art from Rembrandt's period, all from the Rijksmuseum. Fourteen of them were Rembrandts, and about nine or ten of those were etchings.

The centerpiece of the exhibit was Rembrandt's "Self Portrait as Saint Paul." (It's in our text on p.658.) It was done at the time of Rembrandt's greatest troubles and is shows in his face. Although this was supposed to be a reverent portrait of a saint, Rembrandt seems to have used it to reflect his own condition. He did not flatter himself. His nose is extra bulbous, his chin is weak, his hair sticks out, unkempt from under his turban, and his eyebrows are highly arched, almost like what might be painted on a clown face.

Seeing the painting in person, you can see how Rembrandt used impasto techniques to create the illusion of light. His forehead and turban seemed to glow with their own light. If I learned nothing else in this discussion, it's what "impasto" is and means. (Thank you EmmaB.)

Another one I liked, and I don't think is mentioned in our book, was a huge piece (I would guess 8' by 8') titled "The Denial of St. Peter." In the foreground, Peter is denying to the soldiers (and, curiously, a pretty young woman) that he had anything to do with Christ. In the background, depicted only in shadows, Christ is being led off by his captors. He is looking back over his shoulder to Peter and saying with body language, only, "How could you deny me at this moment?"

The young woman is holding a candle to Peter's face so that they could try to read his expression as he told the lie without any sign of guilt. It was a very powerful painting.

The "Still Life With Dead Peacocks" which is in our book, but I can't find the page now, was also shown. Remember thats the one with a girl leaning on a windowsill looking out at some dead peacocks? There was considerable blood about the peacocks, and it's probably not something you would want hanging in you living room. The museum could not explain why he executed this painting, or what he was trying to say. It's a mystery. It is also the only still life done by Rembrandt that survives.

Among the etchings displayed, they did show the one of "Jan Six Reading" Remember the one of him leaning casually against a window, reading what looks like a magazine or newspaper?

I'm getting too lengthy for a posting, but there were a number of other Dutch artists from Rembrandt's era, including Govert Flinck. "Isaac Blessing Jacob" by Flinck was shown. For a long time that painting was thought to be a Rembrandt, his work was so similar in composition and technique.

It was nice to see some real Rembrandts in person, after spending so much time reading about the Master and squinting at the dark reproductions in the book.

Rich

An excellent report, Ten out of ten !!

Now I must buckle down and have some comments for Ginny.

Brian.

I agree, Rich, that should be written up somewhere, you're a fabulous writer!

I think I have seen the Betrayal or the Denial of St. Peter in person, it IS powerful! How did the paintings seem to you light wise versus peering at their darkened likenesses in the book?

I personally unless there is an informed lecturer present, actually presfer the audio wands. I much prefer them to some of the ill informed docents I have encountered in some museums.

Well I hate to say this but I had to read up to page 643, which I will change in the heading before I could connect to what was being said. I really look forward to hearing your reactions to the Civilis painting in Stockholm.

I would like to see the Civilis painting in Stockholm but I fear this time Professor Schama's particular prose is just over the top in describing this work of art, but it's so verbose I lost the thread and was glad to get a glimpse of the water park altho I must admit I have no idea why it's mentioned?

Why IS the Amusement Park mentioned? I mean it's nice to read about as background. To cite that noise might have kept Rembrandt from concentrating?

I feel as if I'm in a Breughel painting, which is not a bad place to BE but what's it all about, Alfie? Hahahaa

At any rate the plot does thicken on page 641 (that's why we have to read on 2 more pages) as we can see that Rembrandt has a plan to keep his business afloat and on page 643 where we need to stop we can see that his reputation may not be suffering quite as much as is implied.

The issue of "classicism" has reared its head: first Schama says:

. It may even have grated on the nerves of his domestic critics that Rembrandt, whom they patronized as indecently quaint, and whose coarseness tuck out like a sore thumb among the decorous, academic hands of the practitioners of the "clear" style, seemed still to have so many admirers from abroad.

And then...

For the advocates of a refined and solemn style, adherence to classicism was not just a matter of social or aesthetic propriety. It was an issue of philosophy. In their eyes, the fastidiousness of classicism, its erasure of the ill formed and unseemly, its aversion to the indeterminate and the willfully obscure, supplied a definition a justification, of the high moral purpose of art: the crystallization into matter of spiritual beauty. The essence of clarity itself, it necessarily required brilliant light for its display.

Let's read on to Rembrandt's perverseness which follows, let's read on to the end of 643 today, sort of swim over the poets shadow friends and mentioning of Rembrandt, and then maybe pick it up earlier next week, it's getting interesting?

Here is Peter's Denial of Christ. Is this the one? I don't see Christ in the background.

DENIAL OF CHRIST

Thanks, Brian and Ginny.

Joan, Christ is in the upper right hand corner above Peter's extended left hand.

He's looking back at Peter over his left shoulder as Peter denies him.

Rich

Much of the visual impact of that painting is its magnitude. The people in the foreground are larger than life size. Our little computer screens don't do Rembrandt justice.

I guess that's why we visit museums.

Rich

JoanK ~ thanks for that link of Peter's denial of Christ...I've never seen the Rembrandt before.

Rich - you're right about visiting museums and the actual painting. I remember seeing a Rubens exhibit one time in Berlin and how large the paintings were and the figures much much larger than life. The Internet is great but doesn't replace a visit to the museum.

A little painting I did on the computer ~
click here please. (opens in a new window)

It's lovely Emmabarb - Your very talented.

Good HEAVENS, EmmaBarb, that's incredible!! We need that in the heading! Thank you for showing us that!

Yes I agree on the difference, the art in a museum seems to leap out and some of them glow or seem to call to you, I'll never forget the almost electric shock of the Vermeer I saw in Amsterdam, just imagine what it must have been like for people 400 years ago, who didn't have the assault on the senses of magazines, TV, video, DVD, special effects, etc.?

So Dutch Masters is more than a cigar. At any rate, Schama here paints a vivid picture of the goings on outside Rembrandt's door, perhaps to contrast with his own situation? I must admit that it sounds a great deal like the atmosphere at the huge gardens right outside Amsterdam whose name escapes me for the moment (what does not?) hahahaa, but if you wonder (aside from the prostitutes) what it's like, you can find it in Professor Schama's writing here, very festive and enjoyable.

Your computer art is amazing. That last piece is beautiful. I envy your talent.

Brian, Yes, it's too bad they cut up his "Claudius" painting. I guess people at the time just felt compelled to make Rembrandt's paintings smaller. Our loss.

Just getting caught up with the rest of you on the reading. The lengthy section on the Amsterdam Town Hall was interesting. Town halls were (and still are) very important cultural and civic centers in central and northern European cities. I learned at the Rembrandt exhibit that the town hall in Amsterdam about which we've been reading still exists, and is now the Royal Residence of Queen Beatrix of the Netherlands.

Traveling in the Netherlands, Germany or any of the Scandinavian countries, and you're looking for a reliable place to have lunch or dinner, you can always be sure of getting a fine meal, and the best beer, in the cafe of the town hall of whatever city you're in.

(Listen to me, I sound like Rick Steeves!)

I've always liked the German word for town hall:- Rathaus.

Sounds like an apt editorial on city politicians.

Rich

Thank you all so very much.

Ginny ~ thank you for honoring me by including a link in the heading.

Rich - I enjoyed your post about the Town Hall.

I find myself reading and re-reading these last pages.
Wouldn't you love to see the full original size of the Claudius painting before it was cut down ? I know I would.

I'm at the part where Rembrandt, in his financial slide, is now living next to an amusement park. It sounds a little like Copenhagen's Tivoli Gardens, but with considerably rougher clientele. Living there had to be an emotional low for Rembrandt, after having to leave his beautiful home filled with art on the Breestraat.

Somehow, I'm reminded of a pseudo-autobiographical Woody Allen movie, where, when he was as a child, his family lived under a roller coaster in an amusement park. Each time the coaster car went by, the house would shake violently, the furniture would slide around, and all the pots and pans would fall out of the kitchen cupboards. Can't remember the name of the movie.

Rich

"The Sampling Officials of the Draper's Guild" on p647 look vaguely familiar?

Maybe that's because the last time you saw that work by Rembrandt it was here:-

http://www.altadisusa.com/cigar/dutchmasters.asp

Rich

Oh what a hoot, I did not make that connection, Rich! It's been quite a while since I saw an actual box of cigars but I remember the name.

Are we all caught up to this section? I have sort of shot my wad on my part of it and our Rich is up to page 647 so let's amscray up to page 651 today! only 50 more pages to go!!!!

BRB I have some free time today and will enjoy chugging ahead.In fact, let's go up to page 654 as pages 653 and 652 are full page plates and we might enjoy discussing them.

Onward!!

As many times as I've seen that cigar box (my father must have smoked that brand of cigars), I never really looked at the picture. It really is quite good. I might not have seen it if Schama didn't point it out, but he really made the (essentially static) scene quite dynamic, and the people quite individual.

The pictures of the husband and wife, with their different techniques, give quite different impressions, don't they. The husband's figure looks almost dreamy, as if a figure in a dream. She jumps off the page, in a very threatening way.

The painting is also on the "Dutch Treats" little cigars. How about the Da Vinci cigar signature and the "Mona Lisa". Wouldn't those artists just love the commercial use of these ? I think not.

Rembrandt took a subject which Joshua Reynolds described as merely "six men dressed in black," and turned it into a masterpiece.

I have to quibble with the author on one point, however. We are told that, for effect, the table is placed "at an angle of 90 degrees to the picture plane." If that were the case, the table would be at a right angle to the picture plane. The table is placed at an angle somewhere between the picture plane and a right angle. It looks like a 45 degree angle to me.

There's a nit-picker in every crowd, isn't there?

Rich

RICH: actually two of them. I should have caught that!

In the Drapers' Guild group painting, I love the rug thrown over the table. I wonder why the man in the very back is not wearing a black hat ?

The Drapers' Guild (of which the group portrait was made) is made up of five men. Remember? "Two Catholics, a Remonstrant patrician, a Calvinist, and a Mennonite." However the painting shows six men.

Later in the text, Prof Schama mentions that their live-in steward, Franz Bel, is also in the painting. He would be the sixth man, and it's my guess he is the only one not wearing one of those cool hats. The hat is probably a badge of office, and since he is not a "Stallmeester" he doesn't get to wear the hat. That's my guess.

Rich

Oh GOOD for you Rich!!!!!! Good for you for noticing, Emma, well done, All!! I am sure that is correct, wow!

I did not catch that NOR remember that about the 6, super discussion!

I wish I got as much out of my reading of this book as you all seem to, however I will say that I did get the Jeopardy question right the other night about Rembrandt's contemporary Vermeer so I guess I've picked up something~!

Did somebody say the milkmaid was normally in the Hague? I saw it in the Rijksmuseum in Amsterdam but it was undergoing a huge transformation (and still is) and they had moved certain pieces to the Treasure House I think they called it, so the public could see something, so MAYBE that one was on loan! Boy I'm glad I saw it, because while I have BEEN, as I said, to the Hague, I did not go in any art museums. Wow.

Oh great points, Joan K on the differences in the way the husband and wife are portrayed! I am still reading this section and hope to catch up today. Can't wait to see what I think of them, you all notice so many things I don't!

I would have known as I did, after reading about the man without the hat this evening who he was. As Rich said...the live-in steward. Why did Rembrandt (if Prof. Schama didn't make that up) see fit to include the steward ?

"Sampling Officials of the Drapers' Guild."

What Prof. Schama seems to be saying about the uniqueness of this painting is that the viewer becomes a part of what is happening in the scene.

I found interesting his reference to a painting Rembrandt could not of known of, Velazquez's "Las Meninas." Where the attention of the people of the painting is drawn to something beyond the plane of the picture and out where you are standing. (Velazquez accomplished this by showing the reflection of the king and queen in a mirror in the rear of the painting.)

In Rembrandt's painting, you get the sense that they were all at work, looking down, when someone asked them a question and they all looked up...at you!

Amazing!

Rich

Here's the Velazquez painting. Note the reflection of the king and queen in the mirror in the back.

http://www.artchive.com/meninas.htm

I saw this painting in the Prado in Madrid years ago, but, in my ignorance I had no idea what I was looking at.

Rich

Las Meninas or The Family of Philip IV 1656-57 Oil on canvas, 318 x 276 cm Museo del Prado, Madrid

"Las Meninas" is a Portuguese word used to name the Maids of Honour of the Royal children in the 17th century.

Las Meninas or The Royal Family is one of the great problem pictures in the history of art. An almost infinite number of interpretations have now been proposed for the scene it shows. At first sight, however, Las Meninas seems to present no problems at all, and indeed appears perfectly straightforward in its sober geometry and good-humoured clarity.

It is set in a room in the Alcázar, equipped by Velázquez as a studio, and shows the heiress to the throne, the Infanta Margarita, with her court. Palomino names all those present. The queen's maid of honour, Dona Maria Agustina Sarmiento, one of the meninas, is kneeling at the Infanta's feet, handing her a jug of water. The other maid of honour, Dona Isabel de Velasco stands behind the princess, and beside her we see the grotesquely misshapen female dwarf Mari-Bárbola and the male dwarf Nicolasico Pertusato; the latter, as Palomino points out, is placing his foot on the mastiff lying in front of the group to demonstrate the lethargic animal's good temper. Further back, almost swallowed up in the shadows, are a man described only as guardadamas - a guard or escort to the ladies - and the lady in waiting Doña Marcela de Ulloa.

Velázquez is standing with brush and palette in front of a tall canvas; we can see only the back of it. There are some large pictures hanging on the back wall of the room. Two of them were painted by Velázquez's son-in-law, Mazo, from models by Rubens, and show scenes from Ovid's Metamorphoses, one of them another version of the punishment of Arachne. The princess's parents, the king and queen, appear in a dark frame below these pictures, probably the glass of a mirror. To the right of the mirror, on a flight of steps leading up to a doorway and a brightly lit adjoining room, stands Jose Nieto, the queen's palace marshal.

There are several basic questions that have been asked again and again about this picture. What is Velázquez painting on the front of the canvas that is hidden from us? Where did he stand in order to paint the scene and himself in it? What is the source of the image in the mirror - that is, just where in the room must the royal couple have been standing for their reflection to appear? And finally, is there any significance in the fact that the red cross of the Order of Santiago is prominently applied to the artist's clothing?

It was long thought that Velázquez was creating a picture without any metaphysical or speculative reference, and was merely recording a fleeting moment in permanent form, as if in a snapshot. According to this theory the subject was no more than an ordinary scene of palace life.

A different hypothesis is put forward by art historians, who believe that intellect and keen perspicacity, as well as the artist's eye and hand, were involved in the painting of Las Meninas. The largest number of interpretations have been put forward for the mirror on the back wall, sometimes also thought to be a painted canvas. Much learned industry has also been applied to the question of location: in which room in the palace is this scene taking place?

Despite the riddles hidden in the painting of Las Meninas we must not overlook its artistic mastery, particularly as expressed in the figure of the Infanta Margarita surrounded by people of lesser birth. For it was on the princess that the dynastic hopes of the Spanish Habsburgs rested after the death of Prince Baltasar Carlos.

This information comes direct from the Web Gallery of Art (site is shown on the top of our Rembrandt's Eyes page) and it is well worth a visit.

Brian

I keep seeing links to Rembrandt and Schama's discussion in Short's "The Island at the Center of the World". When the first group of Dutch settlers started for the New World, guess who administered a loyalty oath to them? Doctor Tulip! (remember him?). And remember Schama's description of the fur trade, and that wonderful fur coat? That was an important part of the story. The Russian fur trade dried up because "the Russian slaughter had outstripped the beavers' sexual abilities" (Shorto p. 34) so the Dutch went to America to get more fur.

GINNY: Ann tried to post a link to a picture of the Rembrandt house museum and it didn't work well. Do you want to share yours?

I remember seeing that Valazquez "Las Meninas" painting before but I didn't realize that was a painting of a mirror with the King and Queen's relection. It seems pretty bright to be a mirror and there are no painted reflections in the mirror of the room.

(p. 651) It is interesting about married couple's portraits, when the husband becomes deceased, she is allowed a frontal pose in her widowhood. Had he been alive at the time of the painting, she would have been turned slightly toward him. I wonder when in time this idea was changed and who changed it.

I'm with you two. I wouldn't have known what I was seeing without explanation. The position of a wife in a portrait is very interesting. Would she have to turn to the side even if her husband wasn't painted, I wonder? Or was there always a companion husband picture?

Oops ! I see I left out the "f" in reflection.

JoanK ~ that's an interesting question. I wonder about that, but I would imagine it would only be if matching portraits were painted. Wouldn't it be fun to reverse the paintings now and then

I don't remember if someone already posted this link, but it is a good one. A National Gallery exhibition of R's late religious paintings. Click on each painting for a larger picture accompanied by a brief history. She posted it in a context of showing how R used his Jewish neighbors as models for Saints (first picture on the left and next to last on the right).

LATE PICTURES

Joan I'd love to help. I'd love to find the photo of Rembrandt's House, I've searched this discussion, I've searched the Archived old discussion, I've searched the galleries, I simply can't find it. If one of you can point me to it I'll post with glee. All I can find are interior shots, the stairs, the sign on the exterior, I'll look for the book today and if necessary go into my old computer and look there. I am sorry that I can't put my finger on it this morning, I have tried, and will keep looking.

- - -

These two photos are of Rembrandt's last two houses in Amsterdam. The first is of the RembrandtHuis Museum, and the second is of the house in Rozengracht (Rose-Canal) to which he moved after his bankruptcy.

Brian

GINNY: I didn't mean to cause you so much trouble! Thanks, Brian, for those great pictures. I'll send people over here to look.

I love that house where Rembrandt lived on the Rose Canal (Rosengracht)...it's so artsy.
Brian - thanks !
Here's that stone up close on the front of the house (I think).
Or maybe that's from the church where his bones lay to rest ?

Great photos of the two Rembrandt houses. I would guess that both of them are now in the "high rent" districts of Amsterdam.

EmmaB, I think your second guess is correct: That stone is on the church where he is buried- The Westerkerk. It looks like the marginal notes tell us that it is not known where exactly in the church his body is interred.

Rich

Great stuff here! I appreciate the photos, Brian, I seem to remember that I had to use one from the book from the museum anyway as it's very hard to get a good photo when you are standing on the street.

Joan, I do have the steps inside, the layers of the building and the odd shot here and there, but you all have probably moved on. Thank you for the link! It's amazing how many references there are to what you're reading in other books, astounding in fact. I always seem to feel my eyes have been opened: a great reason to read, actually.

Emma, I thought that was a great piece of information too, on the woman after her husband was gone being able to face the "camera" so to speak. One has to wonder then about Hendrickje as Juno?

I just thought of that! He did himself and her?

Brian, what a fascinating piece, thank you so much, on Las Meninas. I wonder why as Rich said, Schama is including this painting which R could not have seen, but I sure enjoyed that description AND the fact that there has been a lot of effort spent to try to figure it out AND that they don't agree and it's mysterious.

I guess in this book Professor Schama is giving his OWN take on it, right down to what Rembrandt "felt" was good.

We are learning so much in here; a very rich discussion, thank you all!

I think it would be fun to reverse paintings now and then. I sometimes turn them upside down, do any of you? It's amazing what you can see that way. If, also, you'll put a paper across half of a face sometime, you'll see some startling differences, too, even your own photo?

For my part, I really liked for once Schama's description of the Steelmeesters, really liked that. I liked hearing that there has been a controversy for years about who they are looking at as I found myself also, did you? Trying to figure out which one was looking at me. Hahaah And where they were all looking.

Really enjoyed that. It and the Velasquez description SEEM to say that art is partly in the eye of the beholder, is that the idea YOU all get? That yes learned men add so much to it but even they disagree, and it allows you to feel whatever you feel, now heightened by their expertise but still your own? Or is that somewhat of an ignorant stance?

The seque into Vos and his warts I believe I could have done without. Are warts considered contagious?

I thought this was good on the bottom of page 649:

Once we grant that there is some sort of intended connection to be made between the figures on the inside of the painting and us on the outside, we can relax into the vivacious compositional dynamics of the picture—figures projecting, receding, standing, sitting, leaning, holding looking, grasping, the wonderful ups and downs and backs and forths echoed by the rhythm of the wainscoting at their backs, we can see yet again that even within the frame of what seems at first to be an entirely traditional painting, Rembrandt has done something startlingly modem, creating a pictorial pattern that neither Vermeer nor Mondrian would have any difficulty in recognizing as an essentially musical compositon: a contrapuntal arrangement of figures lines, and colors.

And people say I write long sentences! Hahahah But I love that.

I thought, again, Margaretha's hands were out of proportion to her body, am I the only one?

Now this statement on page 654 (the page across from Titus as St. Francis), sort of brought me up and I wonder what you think about it because 10 pages on of course we do have The Jewish Bride and of course that's a wonder of what he's describing here:

...the brushwork ceases to describe any kind of shape or contour at all and being, instead, to lead its own independent existence; scratched and scrawled in some areas, scribbled and daubed and patched in others. Rembrandts has understood—and acted on—an optical principle which was beginning to be understood (though seldom practiced) but which would be come a common place of modern painting, namely, that the rough surface engages with, and stimulates, the activity of the eye far more powerfully than a smooth surface. The rough and the smooth surface, in fact, presuppose quite different relationships between artist and spectator ...

And then he goes on to say why.

Now this is news to me, who knows nothing of art, and I am very interested to see if you say it's true and what applications you can find to support or deny it. I have seen the Jewish Bride and have been one of the crowds who get very up close to stare at that sleeve which has huge GLOBS of paint on it, let's explore this, what to me, is excitingly new information and see what we can find out.

Let's move on to page 664, the page opposite The Jewish Bride plate, this reading will not be as time consuming as the last was, as there are many plates. But is what he's saying, true, here or is this another of the Schama Suppositions, like how Rembrandt felt.

Emma - - - I agree with Rich. Here are the two plaques side by side.

And, YES Ginny, warts ARE contagious (caused by a mildly infective virus)

Brian

I had to read this sentence twice before I believed what it said.

"In October 1662, when the chill Amsterdam nights were draining light from the afternoons, Rembrandt sold Saskia's grave."

He sold his dead wife's final resting place for money. They dug up her bones with shovels so he could have a few more guilders in his pocket.

Whatever happened to "Requiem in Pace?"

Whatever happened to his devotion to the love of his life?

I'm not liking this Rembrandt fellow.

Rich

RICH: I agree. It is very hard to like Rembrandt sometimes. I wish we had things written by him, so we could get a better sense of him. But he seems to have been a master at making himself someone else, so maybe it wouldn't help.

I never heard of renting a grave space...and if you couldn't pay the rent the remains were dug up and the space rented to someone who could pay.

I have. I haven't gotten to the part you are reading about but I believe it was common at one time to recycle graves, there was not much space. In fact I have heard in Europe of many put in one tomb, not as a mausoleum but sort of shovelled in the back of large graves with ornate tombs, it's possible they had no space, after all Amsterdam IS under water, that is only floats on man made islands and it's possible space was at a premium, remember Mozart's burial?

I guess the expression "final resting place" really has no meaning.

The world messes with you for several decades, then you are finally buried so that your remains may "rest in peace," and the world continues messing with you. Depressing thought.

Rich

I didn't know the story of Mozart's burial so I "Googled" it.

http://europeanhistory.about.com/library/bldyk11.htm

More of the same stuff. After he was buried for a while they dug him up and crushed his bones so he would fit into a smaller space.

Maybe we should change the subject.

Rich

Well we're coming close to the end (of the book) aren't we.

I'm hoping to get to this part today, but think of the Capucin monks in Rome. I still have not been able to bring myself to go see the exhibit but it may have more to do with a different sort of "permanent resting place," being important than earthly remains.

I know it's quite common, but let me read on and see!

Actually a study of funeral customs thru the ages might be fascinating. The Romans had very elaborate funeral processions. People would wear masks of their ancestors or carry busts, to signify the passing of generations. Mourners would be hired to make a good show. The displays of grief and elaborate funerals got to the point that Augustus forbade excessive funerals, even limiting the numbers of mourners allowed to attend.

The Romans viewed the deceased as part of the family. They would routinely journey out to the tombs and have picnics, including the departed in the festivities. In 2004 there was real excitement when a "feeding tube" was found, in which food or wine was shared with the deceased.

I guess this sounds morbid. Each civilization and time seems to have its own take on death and the treatment of the deceased and/ or the remains. The ancient Greeks believed that if the body was not buried with all ceremony the soul would be unhappy and wander forever, that's why there was such a furor over what happened in the Iliad (one of the furors).

All countries have had unique customs over the ages. Our own country also has a somewhat cheerful twist: the humorous tombstone epitaph.

Some real ones are:

I told you I was sick.

Here lies John Yeast, pardon me for not rising.

and my all time favorite:

Here beneath this stone we lie
Back to back, my wife and I.
And when the angel's trump shall trill
If she gets up, then I'll lie still.

On that cheery note, I will change the subject hahaha

Any other thoughts on this new passage?

Funny epitaphs, Ginny.

I just noticed the title for this chapter: "Quietus"

It's one of those words you sort of feel you know the definition of, but if anyone pinned ME down for a definition, I'd have had to say I really didn't know.

So I looked it up.

It means looking at death as a release from life.

You know, they say that every good novel has a great first sentence that GRABS you and makes it impossible for you to put the book down. Sharma's first sentence to this chapter would have made a world-class opening sentence to a novel:

"In October 1662, when the chill Amsterdam nights were draining light from the afternoons, Rembrandt sold Saskia's grave."

Who could put down a book that started with that sentence?

Our Professor Schama does have a gift with words.

Rich

I'm finding the Lucretia paintings on pp660 and 661 and the author's discussion thereof, sort of a yawn.

Therefore, I'm proposing to this discussion group, and our learned and gracious discussion leader, that we set our target to p686. Many of the included pages are full color plates, but most importantly, it brings us to the end of the book-proper. (We still have the Afterward to cover, starting on p692.)

I cheated, and looked ahead into the Afterward, and found that there is a subchapter entitled "Rembrandt's Eyes." Hmmmm. I didn't read it though. That would be like tasting the desert before finishing the entree.

Just a proposal. I'll go along with what our Leader says.

Rich

Ok I've finally caught up to what you all are talking about and yes Rich is right, it's very dramatic, one feels betrayed, somehow. Curious, all that other historical background information but here Schama is mum while even I with my very limited knowledge of history, know that was common, what is he trying to imply? He's also made a point about Hendrickje's will and being sure Rembrandt was named guardian so that the money would not go elsewhere but I thought Hendrickje did not have money and that the poverty was actually taking a toll on her? I am confused but I may have missed something.

9,000 dead of the plague! Those were awful times, remember all the movies you have seen with them going by in wheelbarrows crying "bring out your dead." Things we can hardly imagine now.

Still Schama makes kind of a stab at it saying that the "fate or moral remains was of no concern of the Church; nor did the site of their repose have any bearing on the salvation of souls.." but then he points out Rembrandt was not particularly religious, so it's hard to figure here.

Then we have the awful fate of St. Bartholomew ,and his somewhat strange portrait, that's a very powerful painting, I think but you'd never know it for a saint. What an awful thing, I had forgotten how he died, so I guess that cloak in red is intended as his actual skin?

Golly. That, to ME, is one of the most powerful pieces in the entire lot. It's in the J Paul Getty, I really need to go there.

Then we have the first Brutus, Junius, and Lucretia and the explusion of the Tarquins. I always liked the name Tarquinius Superbus, Tarquin the Proud. There were two Tarquins, actually thought to have been Etruscan, they certainly may be legendary. The first was the 5th King of Rome, Tarquinius Priscus (616-579 BC) you can see why it's the stuff of lengends.

The second, Tarquinius Superbus, Tarquin the Proud, after a suitable career in murder, ruled 534 to 510, when he was expelled, sources are "thoroughly confused," according to the Oxford Companion to Classical Literature.

My eye, upon looking at Lucretia, does not go where Schama's says it should, does yours? Particularly the one on the right plate.

Shakespeare did a poem the Rape of Lucretia in 1594:

And his Brutus who killed Caesar was a descendant of that so called noble first Brutus, "Junius," who threw the tyrants out of Rome, sort of over this episode, but possibly not.

I am somewhat confused over how Lucretia's stain would create "difficulties for the Christian tradition" since it happened a good 500 years BC. I really am not sure why they would take the time to address that and ignore all the other legends.

And then we have the Jewish Bride again with much attention to the hand, always the hands, which to me are always outsize, am I the only one, BIG hands. Of course I could not stop reading and you can see some of the great outsize detail of the sleeve on p age 667, let's move on if you like?

My ISP is refusing to find the Shakespeare poem so I may be a while, but look at the full length plate facing page 670 in the paperback, Self portrait 1662, does that not look a lot like the very last one we saw facing the page Quietus (good point on that Rich)??

?? How would you say they are different? Let's move on!!

To 686, I agree, mush on! Great suggestion!!

Here we go:

THE RAPE OF LUCRECE

To the Right Honourable Henry Wriothesley,
Earl of Southampton, and Baron of Tichfield.

The love I dedicate to your lordship is without end; whereof this pamphlet, without beginning, is but a superfluous moiety.

The warrant I have of your honourable disposition, not the worth of my untutored lines, makes it assured of acceptance. What I have done is yours; what I have to do is yours; being part in all I have, devoted yours. Were my worth greater, my duty would show greater; meantime, as it is, it is bound to your lordship, to whom I wish long life, still lengthened with all happiness.

Your lordship's in all duty,

WILLIAM SHAKESPEARE.

THE ARGUMENT LUCIUS TARQUINIUS, for his excessive pride surnamed Superbus, after he had caused his own father-in-law Servius Tullius to be cruelly murdered, and, contrary to the Roman laws and customs, not requiring or staying for the people's suffrages, had possessed himself of the kingdom, went, accompanied with his sons and other noblemen of Rome, to besiege Ardea. During which siege the principal men of the army meeting one evening at the tent of Sextus Tarquinius, the king's son, in their discourses after supper every one commended the virtues of his own wife; among whom Collatinus extolled the incomparable chastity of his wife Lucretia. In that pleasant humour they all posted to Rome; and intending, by their secret and sudden arrival, to make trial of that which every one had before avouched, only Collatinus finds his wife, though it were late in the night, spinning amongst her maids: the other ladies were all found dancing and revelling, or in several disports. Whereupon the noblemen yielded Collatinus the victory, and his wife the fame. At that time Sextus Tarquinius being inflamed with Lucrece' beauty, yet smothering his passions for the present, departed with the rest back to the camp; from whence he shortly after privily withdrew himself, and was, according to his estate, royally entertained and lodged by Lucrece at Collatium. The same night he treacherously stealeth into her chamber, violently ravished her, and early in the morning speedeth away. Lucrece, in this lamentable plight, hastily dispatched messengers, one to Rome for her father, another to the camp for Collatine. They came, the one accompanied with Junius Brutus, the other with Publius Valerius; and finding Lucrece attired in mourning habit, demanded the cause of her sorrow. She, first taking an oath of them for her revenge4 revealed the actor, and whole manner of his dealing, and withal suddenly stabbed herself. Which done, with one consent they all vowed to root out the whole hated family of the Tarquins; and bearing the dead body to Rome, Brutus acquainted the people with the doer and manner of the vile deed, with a bitter invective against the tyranny of the king: wherewith the people were so moved, that with one consent and a general acclamation the Tarquins were all exiled, and the state government changed from kings to consuls.

THE RAPE OF LUCRECE

FROM the besieged Ardea all in post... In Edit: this thing is a coding nightmare, see Brian's post below for a more readable version!

Sorry, that does not seem to be coding itself very well and I can't imagine trying to code it. I think it's all there, tho, got it half coded anyway.

I thought I had come to the wrong discussion group !!

An easier to follow "Rape of Lucrece" is here

http://www.uoregon.edu/~rbear/shake/rl.html

I am aiming for p. 686 also

Brian

hahaah Brian you are a hoot, I have removed the messed up coding and referred all to your better version, thank you!

And I thought we did not appreciate Rembrandt's raunchier side.

Brian

Page 686 wow ! We're almost there.

Rich - that opening sentence was very graphic wasn't it.

I read the Afterward when I first got the book but I don't remember it now

Ginny ~ Those were awful times weren't they with people dying everywhere of the plague.
I can't imagine.
Oh dear I did not recall how St. Bartholomew died. I would say you're correct about the cloak being red in the painting.

Brian - thanks for the link to William Shakespeare and The Rape of Lucrece.

Thank you Ginny and Brian for Shakespeare's "Lucrece." Long poem, huh?

The whole story of Lucrece reminds me vaguely of the story line in Shakespeare's play "Othello." I wonder if researching the story of Lucreta to write that poem inspired him to come up with "Othello?"

EmmaB, You read the "Afterward" before you read the book? You remind me of my younger son. He would come to the table and ask what was for dessert before he even knew what we were having for dinner. Still today, even as a father himself, if he is handed a dinner menu in a restaurant, he turns to the dessert section first.

Rich

Rich - I like your son, maybe we're related

"The Jewish Bride" I find the author teases us with some things, but doesn't follow through.

One, I remember reading somewhere, long ago, that Rembrandt may have been Jewish. The theory being that his family adopted a Calvinist veneer in order to "get along." In his history of Rembrandt, Schama makes no mention of that theory, and, reading this book, I have decided that there is no basis to it. But why then, just before presenting us with "The Jewish Bride," does the author give us this sentence with no further explanation: "But then, Rembrandt is no orthodox Calvinist, no orthodox anything?"

Maybe the "DaVinci Code" has sensitized me to look for clues and double-meanings everywhere.

Then, in The Jewish Bride," we read about the symbols of life that are displayed in the image. We are even told that later scientific investigation has discovered particles of egg in the pigment. Has Rembrandt really brought his passion for symbolism into the formulation of his pigments, or is this just conjecturing by our author?

Whatever, "The Jewish Bride" must be quite a masterpiece if it moved Vincent van Gogh to say, " I should be happy to give ten years of my life if I could go on sitting in front of this picture for ten days with only a dry crust of bread."

Rich

Rembrandt was indeed a gentile. But according to Larry Silver, University of Pennsylvania professor of art history, he was less righteous gentile than rebellious gentile.

"Rembrandt wasn't exactly a pillar of the church community. For one thing,he had a common-law wife, and he was generally thought of as pretty wild and weird within the Dutch Reform community."

The above was taken from : -

http://www.jewishsf.com/content/2-0-

Brian

BRIAN: In his history of Rembrandt, Schama makes no mention of that theory, [that R was Jewish]and, reading this book, I have decided that there is no basis to it.

Yes, he does. I don't remember where, but I remember reading it the first time I read the book. After discussion, Schama too decides there is no basis to it.

Although there has been some debate.

This link is to a speech by Gary Schwartz at the Jewish Historical Museum during the opening of an exibit entitled 'Jewish' Rembrandt.

Unlike most speeches, it's short and interesting.

http://www.jhm.nl/jhm/documenten/Lezing%20Gary%20Schwarz%20engels.pdf

Rich

by the way, is the acclaimed author of "The Rembrandt Book."

http://www.amazon.com/Rembrandt-Book-Gary-Schwartz/dp/0810943174

Rich

I hope you were all peeled to Jeopardy (one word I canNOT spell) last night if you live in the US because the final question was a photograph of a painting and it said it was somebody like Fabricius or something, (I missed that bit) but he was the most famous pupil of?

Music music music and I looked at that face and said Rembrandt and guess what? hahahaha

SO we ARE learning stuff!!! I'd have won the GAME!

You are disqualified. You did not pose it in the form of a question. Your response should have been, "Who is Rembrandt?" Sorry, you lose.

Please go backstage and one of our producers will give you change for carfare home.

Alex

hahaha and that is EXACTLY what would happen to me under pressure too! I hear he's really a cold fish personally from local people who have been on the show but I expect he needs to maintain something of a distance.

HE'S got the answers written in front of him but the way he says "no," makes you think he wrote the book on it. Not! hahahaha

Who IS Rembrandt or Who WAS Rembrandt?

After all, it WAS 400 years ago!

Brian

hahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa I would be lucky to remember who I am on televison! hahahaa

Very interesting speech!

I thought so too. As I said, most speeches are long and boring, that one was short and interesting. (And, it gave us another perspective on Rembrandt.)

Rich

it's hard to miss the fact that each successive self portrait of Rembrandt shows him in increasing levels of physical deterioration. Am I the only one who reads the text and looks at the paintings and doesn't think of Oscar Wilde's "Picture of Dorian Gray?"

The difference, here, is that Rembrandt deteriorates along with his paintings. I guess in real life and in art there is no denying the effects of time.

Rich

I prefer not to think of Dorian Gray, but the mirror shows me daily that an old man has come to live in my house, and I think he is using my credit cards.

You are quite right, Rich, when you say that Rembrandt the person, is deteriorating with age. Fortunately, his talent for painting is unimpeded, and we are the gainers.

Brian.

Thats two great comments you made. The first was very funny (and clever), and the second very true.

Rich

Funny, an old woman has come to live in my house. She's not only using my credit card, she's using my library card. Fortunately, she has good taste in books.

I meant to say great links, Rich, thank you SO much, I have appreciated everything each person has brought here, we've had a wonderful ride.

hahaha I was thinking as I read all of your comments that I wondered WHY he did so many portraits of himself? We know there were no cameras. Wonder why he wanted to paint himself ? I'm behind and must now catch up, but storms may keep me off, let's plaw ahead if you'd like, oh my golly, oh my gosh, 10 more will bring us to the END? OH NOOoooooooooooooooooooo.

OH my. 696 is withiin striking distance of 702, let's go for it!

How did that happen? Let's push to the....yikes end? Let's take two weeks to do it?

And THEN we'll ask the $64.000 question!

ONward to page 702.

As John Cleese said in his famous movie Clockwise: this IS a momentous occasion! Let's take two weeks to wrap it up, say anything you'd like! (Within reason) And thank you for not only sticking it thru but holding it up and making it as interesting if not more so than the book!

Rembrandt certainly was objective about his own image. He truly portrayed himself as he saw himself in the mirror. From the text, on one of his last self-portraits: "The set of his jaw slackened; the muscles elastic; the cheeks and chin flabby; the nose swollen and pulpy, its skin speckled with open, fatty pores; his hair a powdery grey cloud."

Not the image of the young stud who used to chase his maid Hendrickje around the bedroom in his old house on Breestaat.

It seems that, when it came to art, Rembrandt had a totally objective eye, and he could not deny it even for the sake of vanity.

Rich

A couple more points - - - now that we are in penultimate phase it might be worthwhile
to return to our heading and look again at the image of Rembrandt's eye, taken from
one of his last self-portraits.

On a personal basis, I have enjoyed the trip, learned a lot, and made many new friends.

In the last two weeks I have curled 14 games, and am ready to get out my golf apparel.

Today, my wife and I went to Rexall Place and watched the USA curling team beat
Norway 7 - 3 in ten ends. Here they are on sheet B (second from the right).

Brian

Wow!! The end is in sight. It was fun [although a bit tedious at time] - thank you all. A museum near me is having an exhibit called "Rembrandt to Rosenquist, Masters of Printmaking." Sounds interesting.

Hi, Sue. Will you be able to make it to the Rembrandt exhibit near you?

Look at the crowd at the curling competition! I know curling is big in Canada, but that's a big turnout for any event. I would imagine that's where the Oilers play, too.

Rexall place... I wonder if that's named for Rexall drug? As a kid, I remember a Rexall or Ligett/Rexall drug store on what seemed to be every street corner. Then, one day, it seems they just all vanished. Poof! Where did they go? Now all you see for drug stores is Walgreens, CVS, and sometimes, OSCO.

The old neighborhood Rexall drug stores often had soda fountains manned by real soda jerks. Remember ordering cherry cokes, or, better still, strawberry ice cream sodas in those hourglass shaped tall glasses with the long spoon so you could reach any ice cream that escaped to the bottom of the glass?

Rich

You're quite right, Rich, - - - Rexall Place, Edmonton, was named for the drug company, and it is the home of the Oilers, and we are getting record crowds. But I've never heard' of Ligett, and have never been served by a soda jerk.

This year has not been kind to the two leading rinks from Edmonton - - - the Kevin Martin team lost out in the Briar, and the Ferbey Four had their heads shaved to raise money for cancer research.

If you want to follow the Ford World Men's Curling Championship on your computer, type in CURLCast into your search engine, and then go to Scoring & Statistics .

Brian.

I'm going to miss this book discussion and especially those who have posted all these months. And many thanks to you Ginny for being our leader.
Rembrandt was indeed one of the world's greatest painters. His overwhelming love and obsession for painting was evident even in his end days. The "Storm on the Lake of Galilee" is my very favorite painting by Rembrandt.
I would recommend this book to anyone, painter or non-painter.

Brian - I love the photo of the curling rink. I did not realize there were such big places to see the sport played. Is that four lanes with different teams all playing at the same time ?

Emma

You really should not encourage me to ramble on my favourite sport, Emma.

We usually curl at a curling rink - - - ours has 8 sheets of ice - - - the number of sheets may be as few as four, or as many as 12. The place where we curl is called a curling club or a curling facility. In Edmonton, we have more than 10 curling clubs with at least 80 sheets of curling ice. Korea, which is fielding a team, has a total of 6 sheets of ice. A two sheet, and a four sheet arena! So their team comes to Canada to get practice and to find competition. In Edmonton we have sold 170,000 tickets for the World's.

Large bonspiels, like the Ford World Men's Curling Tournament, or the Brier, will have big audiences, and need a larger venue. The World's is being held at the stadium that is the home of the Edmonton Oilers (last years runner-up for the Stanley Cup, but this year - - - out of the playoffs!)

Brian.

I mis-spelled BRIAR (not Brier!)

Sorry, Brian.

I know that this has not the remotest connection to Rembrandt, but I'm still obsessing on Rexall drug stores. Am I the only one who remembers them in almost every neighborhood in America? Where did they go?

I "googled" Rexall and came up with the story that at one time they were a national giant, dominating the market in America, but ultimately Rexall became the victim of a series of bad decisions and successively worse management.

Rexall, Canada did not suffer from those management problems and continued to prosper.

I found out that there was a book written about Rexall's demise in the US, and the title tells it all:- "The Rexall Story. A History of Genius and neglect."

In the days of my youth, drug stores, more specifically the soda fountain feature, were a center of activity in a town. Wasn't Lana Turner supposedly "discovered" as she was sipping a soda at the counter of Schwab's Drug Store in L.A.? I think it was that same drugstore where the expression "drugstore cowboys" originated. They were aspiring actors dressed for casting calls in Hollywood westerns who spent their hours of unemployment at the soda fountain in Schwabs.

Many years ago, I tried to visit Schwabs drugstore in L.A., and found that it was long gone. I think it was turned into a bookstore. I don't know what stands there, now.

Rich

Oh yes I remember the Rexall's, Rich! The soda fountain seems to have gone the way of the Dodo. I remember the cherry cokes particularly with a cherry on the end of the straw, and, in our area, the egg cream.

What interesting conversations here, the Briars sound like something in outer space, so many new terms and exotic thoughts, thank you Brian, they seem to fit right in with the Amsterdam atmosphere, I appreciate your telling us about them!

But golly what an awful lot in these few pages. I'm up to Chapter 13, Huygen's Eyes, the Afterward, having seen Titus die, wasn't he handsome, and his young bride, the Plague taking everybody and filling the graves so fast so that it was not possible to have space for Titus in the Loos family grave, he's to stay in a rented one, too. And then Rembrandt, no hosannas like Rubens, 16 paid pall bearers who did not even know him, lying dead in the back room. That Loos woman taking half the gold for herself outright, what of the two heirs? It appears Rembrandt is in a rented hole in the church floor.

This section of his death contains some very evocative writing and some totally inexplicable asides to the reader, to me, from Schama on page 676 in the paperback under the Democritus portrait, what is going on there?

Now the biographer, I think needs a sigh.....Rustle the pages. Scroll down the notes....The joke's on his patrons not on him.

But it's never that straightforward....

This is an interesting passage, I am not sure what Schama is saying, but I am in great fear some other artist is going to finish out Rembrandt's book just as they have dominated throughout.

What are your thoughts on this poignant and well written section, it seems even Schama is tired, pushing the last paintings hard, trying to find SOME explanation for what he sees. Again.

?? A Guilder for your thoughts here, I'm pushing on thru the Afterward and Rembrandt's Ghost, it seems everybody has EYES here at the end!

Ginny, I, also, did not understand what the author was saying in his aside to the reader (along with some stage-direction to the characters in the book) on p676. Schama went to some length in telling us that the "Democratus" painting was a recapitulation of the story of Zeuxis who died of laughter while painting the portrait of an old woman, then refuted his own argument in a convoluted way.

As for the "Afterward," If he could have read it, T.S. Elliot might have said the book ended not with a bang but with a .....

hahaha I am going to read 676 agsin, he lost me with the stage directions, that bit is really kind of off kilter, I am glad you agree. I think he was tired.

I had to return my copy to the library, before I quite reached the end. But will follow along with you. I REALLY want to get to the Ghetty museum to see their Rembrandts: will try to do it before the discussion closes down.

BRIAN: I will miss your talking about curling. You're the only one I know who is interested in it. Did you curl in the "Friar's Briar" this year?

I just got back from Malibu and eating lunch at Paradise Cove. I'm feeling very California today.

Does anyone want to have a virtual party at the end? I'll bring samosas, churros, and the sun screen.

YES! We must have a celebration at the end to commemmorate this magnum opus, great idea, California girl!! hahahaa I shall bring what they sell in the Keukenhof Gardens, right outside Amsterdam, w+affles nice and hot right off the grill like they fix them there in the open air, with powdered sugar upon, more at the time. you'll all love them! They fix them up right there in a little stand: to die for. Never had anything like them, before or since.

What movie stars did you see?

We'll also commemmorate the first time any non fiction book on art has ever been discussed successfully here in SeniorNet's Books, much less for, is it 2 years? hahahaa We've tried before and failed. All thanks to our intrepid readers, and their wide diversity and dedication!

I'm fascinated by the end of the book, and the meltdown. I have a strong feeling this section was not written at the end but rather in the middle. I wonder why he set himself the task of addressing works he needs to sigh and rustle papers about, bless his heart, he's not covered them all? At ALL? So why these particularly.

I was quite struck in the Rembrandhuis Museum by the small engravings, and he's not touched on some of the ones still THERE, jusst a vague mention. Not sure why. At least the writing has improved somewhat.

if we were too hard on the author during this journey. I spent a little time, yesterday, reading as many reviews of the book as I could find to see what others thought.

The reviews seem to break down into two types- the ones that are just a restatement of the publisher's press release (You have to wonder if the reviewer actually read the book, word for word, cover-to-cover), and thoughtful analysis by more serious literary reviewers.

The "publisher's press release" type reviews generally praised the book, the more in-depth reviews seemed to express that it was a good work but not a great work. The author's verbosity on tangential subjects seemed to be the most common complaint.

I don't think we were too far off the mark.

Rich

And what a splendid example of doing something like this thoroughly and enthusiastically over such a long time. Congratulations.

By way of bidding you all an appreciative farewell, I would like to reply to one of Ginny's posts, 623, in which, dealing with the passing thoughts of the discussion, she suggested,

'Actually a study of funeral customs thru the ages might be fascinating.'

I have just the thing. The Hour of Our Death, by Philippe Aries. It's not at all morbid, just a solid piece of research and storytelling, taking the reader from the Appian Way to Pere Lachaise, with a smattering of catacombs in between.

On the dust jacket:

'Philippe Aries...has produced in this book a superb meditation in Western Man's changing attitudes to death, from earliest Christian times up to the present day. (His) remarkable detective work is matched by the richness of his source materials, which embrace churches and graveyards, religious rituals, wills and testaments, love letters, novels, poems, paintings, diaries, town plans, crime and sanitation reports, bureaucratic papers on the positioning of burial grounds in 18c Paris and complaints of grave-robbing in 19c Edinburgh. As he untangles the tangled mysteries of our accumulated terrors and beliefs, he exposes the foundation - indeed the pathology- of our cultural and psychological tensions in the face of death, at a moment in our history when another major transformation of attitudes may be beginning.'

'Death be not proud.' Sounds quaint, after reading about the monumental pride in some of those last resting places.

And then there is always Evelyn Waugh's Handful of Dust!

Cheerio

Still rereading this puzzling section and the Afterward (note it's not AfterWORD?) and puzzling over this section. It's fascinating, to me.

Rich, thank you for that, how perfect to introduce reviews at the end, and I am glad to see (but really how could it be otherwise) that the Book of Segues is also noted by others. It's not so much a fault of the author's, I guess it would depend upon your own need to know the background.

Jonathan! Thank you for that, I've written that one down because anything that goes from "Appian Way to Pere Lachaise" is on my list. I am fascinated by both, and Highgate in London. Pere Lachaise is quite an interesting experience for those who have not been there, similar to Highgate. I recommend Permanent Londoners for those interested in fantastic monuments in London cemeteries, the statuary is incredible.

Great, far ranging discussion here, with lots of side bits. It's been a wonderful journey. What are your final thoughts on the last pages? I'm still treading lightly into the Afterward! (HA! I just realized that's a pun!)

"Treading lightly into the afterward."

That does sound profound. If Dylan Thomas had thought of that first, he might have used it instead of "Going gently into the night."

I like yours better, Ginny.

Rich

JoanK - - - No, I did not go to the Friar's Briar this year. It was in Hamilton, and it clashed with another bonspiel to which I was committed. and Yes, I will come to the virtual party and will bring a set of bowling balls and a jack, as there is not enough ice in Malibu for curling. I have watched bowling but never played the game - - - this will be my chance.

At the moment I am watching curling on my computer. The US team against Germany in a game to decide who goes against Canada tomorrow for the gold medal. See ypu at the party!

Brian

See you. Have we set a date and time yet?

I thought there should be some sort of fanfare. After all, I had the book out for years! Literally. I didn't expect the governor, but maybe at least the head librarian to preside over a simple but dignified ceremony.

When I got there, the library was closed for the day. I had to return it through the "night depository." Not the end I had hoped for in our relationship. So, reluctantly, I opened the hinged drawer on the side of the building and inserted "Rembrandt's Eyes."

Thunk, thunk, thunk, my five-pound hardbound copy of scholarly erudition tumbled down the chute to end up lying there, in the dark, along with the how-to books and Harlequin romances.

Good-bye, old friend.

I, too, have done with my book, and will take my old friend to the library - - - as a gift to other explorers. But I will carry it reverently, and hand it gently to the librarian on duty. I will long remember my new friends who came with me through the epic journey.

Goodbye friends - - - old and new - - - I won't forget you.

Brian

P.S. Germany beat the US curlers, and Canada won the gold medal.

I'm feeling a bit sad to get to the end of the book. Don't know if I want to celebrate or have a candlelight service.

Well I'm NOT THRU so hold on just a tad on the fireworks/ cemetery, I'm still in the Afterward and all of you have turned in your books! We'll have a lovely remembrance celebration here presently, hold on!! We'll have some parting words from all, I, due to circumstances here beyond my control am running late, hold on!!

AT THIS MOMENT, OVATION IS SHOWING A PROGRAM ABOUT REMBRANDT AND "THE NIGHT WATCH"! HOPE YOU CAN ALL SEE IT!

ANN: does OVATION have another name? It would probably be broadcast in Prime Time here. But I don't have any cable station of that name.

WOW!!! We finished the book...we deserve fireworks. I wonder if we are the only people who have read the book cover to cover.

Ovation is a cable channel and is all about the arts. Very interesting show about The Night Watch but there were disagreements with what we have learned here about that painting. Such as the names, they only quoted four or five and said their were no more known. And then, they showed the list of names on the panel that was added later by a different artist. The Dutch love their "Night Watch" and consider it one of their icons. It was in HD so extra beautiful and crisp and clear.

I do wish that I had joined in this discussion but time would not permit.

Well I wish you had, too, Ann, but thank you for that additional interesting information, so there is even more controversy than presented here!! Thank you for that.

I'm still reading, you all be gathering your final treats to bring to the party!!

Calling All Rembrandteyes hahahaha, this coming Tuesday is our Big Farewell Celebration!

Bring something which you enjoy eating, a regional specialty of your area, bring your best memories of the discussion or the book, tell us one thing you really liked about the book and one thing you hated and one thing you LEARNED about Rembrandt which you did not know before our magnum oeuvre!!

We'll go out with a BANG and a regional feast of memories and local foods!

I am not thru but will be back in the next day or so to say the AFTER AFTERWARD thoughts, since many of you have already returned your book, what a group you have been! Hat's off!!!

Tuesday!!

I may miss our Big Farewell Celebration this coming Tuesday! I have a standing commitment that I can't break. However, I'll check in late Tuesday night to see if you have been behaving

and if you left me any goodies

EMMABARB: I'll leave you some goodies. But I can't promise to behave!

We'll make it a 24 hour party and we'll begin Noon Monday!!

I've finished now and I must say that the Eye business in the Afterward is a good attempt but I think as a device it falls flat. Too much segueing into people we don't care about, although the scenes are quite dramatic, a knife fight and sword fight between Lairesse and the sisters, or one of them anyway. This apparently was done for a reason: to arrive at the most "affecting of all Rembrandt's late portraits," the showing all the warts, and telling us the fate of his last child. I can see that it was a labor of love for Professor Schama and I appreciate his trying to sew up all the EYES and loose ends. I really thought I would scream when Huygens appeared again at the end, tho, I guess I thought he was dead 600 pages ago hahahaha.

I'm not sure Schama's end succeeded, it seemed forced, to me, but again, I am not an historian and the minutiae, which is the life and breath of the historian is not of my interest. Still I appreciate what he tried to do, no matter how circuitously he approached it.

So that said, we close the book on the good Rembrandt, and begin a 24 hour ParTAY here on Monday at noon, bring the above requests and let's let it all hang out!

What am I going to do now that "Rembrandt's Eyes" is over?

I'm now reading "Sea of Thunder" by Evan Thomas. It's the story of the WWII naval battle of Leyte Gulf, from both the Japanese and American perspectives. It's not the kind of book that I sense book readers in SeniorNet prefer, but being a WWII buff, I'm enjoying it immensely.

Rich

Maybe when I come by I could mix us some margaritas. Thats very Southwestern. The tequila in margaritas is made from the local "century cactus" although it's technically not a cactus, it is an agave.

The early Spanish settlers named them "century cactus" because they believed that the plant lived for 100 years, then, like a swan song, the plant would suddenly shoot a 10 to 15 foot stem straight upward, bloom beautifully for the first and only time in its life, and die. The story is accurate except for the 100 year part. It's more like 30 years.

Nowadays, before that shoot is sent up, agave plants are harvested and the roots (which have stored up a lot of energy in the form of sugar) are fermented and distilled into tequila.

I can mix non-alcoholic margaritas, also, but there is no interesting background story I can tell you about them.

Rich

In 2001 my wife and I celebrated our 50th wedding anniversary. We went to the Island of Eleuthera in the Bahamas and saw many century trees. Here is a photo I took of one of the trees with a couple more in the distance.

See you all on Monday at our wind-up party.

Brian

Prof. Schama's ending about Lairesse left me somewhat wondering if it was meant for an earlier part of the book.

Rich - I enjoy a good marguerita. The agave plant background info is something I'd never heard before. I'll bet the flower is beautiful. I waited up all night one time just to see a cactus bloom (one that bloomed only once a year). It was worth waiting for. Lasted a day and died. I watched the movie "Troy" the other night and didn't understand why they put two coins on the eyes right before they cremated the dead warrior.

Brian - what a wonderful photo of the century tree and the beach. I think that would be a wonderful place to have our farewell party...right there on the white sandy beach with the beautiful blue water as far as you can see.

Congratulations Ginny and All!! What a fantastic goal to have met and finished. Cheers!

your 50th wedding anniversary in 2001, Brian? Congratulations! Many times over! Your wife stuck with you all those years despite your passion for curling, eh?

That is a great photo of the "century cactus." That beach on Eluthera also looks very inviting, especially that turquoise water. I'm sure the water was bathtub warm there.

EmmaB, I bet the blooming cactus that you saw was the "Night Blooming Cereus" sometimes called the "Queen of the Night." There is a botanical garden near here that has a special "watch" over the plant. When it gets near blooming all the members and subscribers are notified by e-mail that "tonight's the night." There is then a vigil (one of which you apparently attended where you lived) and they all stand around and watch it open. The fragrance is supposed to be outstanding. I've never gone. The call of a comfy bed at night has always been stronger than the urge to see a flower open.

Rich

Sorry if I appeared rude. You were posting when I was typing, and when my post got up, It looked like I was totally ignoring your words.

Thank you for the good wishes on our completion of "Rembrandt's Eyes."

Rich

"Night Blooming Cereus" My sister has a neighbor who owns a night blooming cereus. They invite her over when it blooms. She took a picture and sent it to me -- if I can find it (!?!) I'll bring it to the party.

I'll be late. I have my "chair yoga" class on Monday. But I'll be there!

The night-blooming Cereus has a beautiful flower and is well worth getting out of bed to see. We had one outside the cottage where we stayed in Eleuthera, but it did not bloom while we were there. The century plant has a series of massive heads, but I have never heard anyone call them beautiful.

Night-Blooming Cereus : - http://rfovell.bol.ucla.edu/cereus.html

Century Plant : - http://www.naturesongs.com/vvplants/centuryplant.html

Brian.

Brian, Great photos of both plants. I clicked on the time-lapse icon and watched the night blooming cereus open. Beautiful.

I like the name of the blogsite:- "Are you cereus?"

Rich

Rich - - - if you draw your cursor slowly over the controls of the movie you can get the effect of the flower opening more slowly.

Brian

That was GREAT! You can't tell from the photo, but those flowers are 8 or 9 inches across.

Not to spoil the beautiful moment, but PatH says that the flowers let out puffs of scent designed to attract the carrion-eating bats that pollinate the flowers. I asked if it smelled like carrion. "Well, maybe carrion wearing perfume."

They make a perfume from the scent of the night blooming cereus. (see link)

http://www.desertusa.com/web_cart/db/pages/9207A.html

This all leaves me confused, because we're told that, in the desert, night blooming flowers are pollinated by nocturnal bats rather than insects. Maybe some bats are attracted to sweet scents?

Is there a botanist lurking who can help us?

Rich

Rich - - - sorry to hear that you are confused about bat pollination. This article, originating from Kew Gardens in London, England, may be the answer to clearing up your confusion. Or, it may add to it?

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/1467-8748.00340

Either way, I found it most interesting, and I enjoyed seeing the photos of the pig-faced bats, together with the photos of the flowers and cacti that they were pollinating.

A botanist I am NOT, but a lifelong seeker of abstruse information I may be.

Brian.

Brian: I'm with you in seeking abstruse info. My husband always said that if it was important, I would forget it, but if it was trivial, I would remember it forever.

WHERE IS EVERYONE? i thought the party started at noon today.

I know where I was. I went whale watching this morning. There's a handicapped accessable place near here, where I can see them without getting out of my wheelchair. Not this morning, though. There had been two before I got there.

Then I went to chair yoga. I dashed home, expecting a party! Lucky there were no whales: I'd planned to bring one. As it is, the churros I brought will get cold and tough. I'd better eat them myself!

But I'll bring some mimosas by later, and see if anyone's here.

I know where I was, I was sitting here in frustration with the computer line out due to the storm yesterday, but they do have it on now and so I can stop using the main phone line which we can't tie up due to a family situation, but HERE I am at last just in time to see bat fertilization and ersatz facts. I love strange things, bring them on.

OK we talked all Sunday dinner about a dish from this region I might bring, most of them sort of not interesting to my own palate, I'm certainly not bringing grits tho I am sure they are wonderful. Not interested in hush puppies or fried okra (why am I so fat then?) hahaha) So we decided I will bring our own muscadine and scuppernong grapes (very high in resveratrol and grown organically and I've made biscuits and muscadine jelly and if you have never tasted the latter, you are in for a treat. I've also brought some muscadine jam which you can buy at Callaway Gardens for about 9 bucks a jar and if I made it to sell it would be 100 bucks a jar, once you realize what you have to do to it.

But anyway, what a fine group you have been, I hope somebody is bringing chopped chicken livers to go along with the feast, my favorite dish from my years in the North East, hard to find a good chopped chicken liver.

But first, thank you Brian for the century tree and Hats for the wonderful congratters!! This HAS been an incredible group, thank you all for your spark and your help, we stuck to it when it's not been done before, and it's all because of the assembled party. I am going to miss you all. Come join us in Brideshead Revisited, school is out and it only lasts a month!

So here's my list, just copy mine and fill in your own blanks:

I brought see above to our feast from this area of the country!

My best memories of the discussion or the book are the rich information you all shared with the group, you are really fabulous, I've loved it.

Tell us one thing you really liked about the book: I liked the (believe it or not) very thing that exasperated me the most, the background information. Now that I have closed that heavy tome, that's what I remember? Isn't that STRANGE? It's as if Schama the Historian has succeeded in imparting history.

Tell us one thing you hated: Schama's own opinions offered as fact.

Tell us and one thing you LEARNED about Rembrandt which you did not know before: I did not know a LOT that was taken up in the book, but I think the thing that stood out for me were the various Tobit paintings and story. I was not familiar with them.

My biggest disappointment: That Schama did not go into the engravings which I saw in the Rembrandhuis Museum, he could have taken some of the pages he spent on Huygens and done them.

But all in all it's been a wonderful experience, and surely we all learned something!! You're a wonderful group!!!!!

Grape jam and grape jelly, yummmm. For a quick lunch there is nothing like a peanut butter and grape jelly sandwich. I always have used Welch's grape jelly. There's probably no comparison to what you're bringing Ginny. I have never heard of either variety of grape you mentioned, so this will be a culinary adventure.

Is there any chance you could bring along some of that North Carolina pulled pork barbeque? The real vinegary type?

O.K., lets see what I've got here in this bag. Hmmmm, rummage, rummage (sound effects). O.K. Like I promised, here's the fixins for margaritas with authentic tequila made from Sonoran Desert century cactus. Here's some freshly made tortillas. I put them in a thermal pac so they will stay hot, some taco sauce (mild or spicy, your call), some marinated shredded beef (Mexican style), some chopped fresh tomatoes and lettuce, Monterey Jack cheese and a batch of guacamole that Mrs. Rich7 made up this morning. (Better put everything but the hot tortillas in the 'fridge until everybody gets here.).

Hey, Ginny. Your questions have taken on the aspect of a final exam. (gulp!) If it's O.K. with you, can I sit next to EmmaB, JoanK, and Brian when we write our responses?......Not that I plan on cheating or anything.

I've got more stuff in the car. Be back in a while.

Rich

MMMMmmm. I think I'll havwe to have a margarita before I answer those questions. MMMMMMMMMMM good.

OK. The thing i liked the best about the book was the faces!! I feel like I KNOW the people in R's paintings, except for one -- Rembrandt himself!

The second thing I liked was Schama's enthusiasm! His love of the paintings made me stop and look at paintings I wouldn't have SEEN otherwise.

Let me get some food in me, and I'll be back1

Yum, yum! The guacamole is delicious on warm tortillas. I'm saving the grapes and jelly for dessert.

What I really hated: there was no readable map! One old map, that I couldn't read. So I didn't understand a word of his description of the war, and where the Spanish were and weren't because I couldn't see it on a map.

What I learned: when I first read the book, I knew nothing about Rembrandt, so it was all new. I guess what I remembered was how the religion of the day influenced what could be painted, the memento mori, and how later, people felt safe to be more vain.

Well, I'm here, and in between eating some of the goodies you have all brought, I just happen to have a map that might have been of help in reading the book.

Perhaps there was so much verbiage that there was not room for the map.

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/ward_1912/netherlands_west_germany_1648.jpg

I learned a great deal, there was nothing "that I hated", and would do it all over again with the same leadership and the same company.

Brian.

P.S. The librarian was delighted to accept the book donation.

I stayed off-line last night and early this a.m. because of the extremely high winds we had. We had a power outage but I don't know when because I got in bed and pulled the down comforter nearly over my head.

I'm hoping there will be another discussion of art history and a really good artist similar to this one.

Brian - yes the "Epiphyllum oxypetalum" night-blooming cereus looks like the one except the one I watched had only one bloom.

I saw that too (Are you cereus?) and thought it was cute.
I don't remember the flower being offensive in its smell.

Wow what a great map, thanks. I'd love to print that out...I wonder how big it would print.

Ginny ~ oh I love grapes.
I will bring some hot (Maryland) crab dip with assorted bakery bread pieces. Oh and I have this pretty little appetizer--served with fancy little crackers--a large pkg of Phila cream cheese and on one side I put jalapena (?sp) mint jelly (which is green) and the other side gets red currant jelly.

My best memories of this discussion are all the wonderful people who joined in and of course our leader "Ginny". I will miss it and all of you.

The thing I liked best about Prof. Schama was that he made me curious, and with the internet, I found myself getting more into history than I ever have before and will continue to do so.

One thing I didn't like about Prof. Schama was that he'd mention an artist or something in one paragraph or so and that was it. Made me wonder why he mentioned it at all.

I'd love to see an "Art History Club" here in SeniorNet or is there already one ?

Sorry about the high winds EmmaB. That down comforter sounded like the perfect solution.

Here's what I went back for. My piece de resistance..., chicken mole! Olay! Chicken cooked in spicy chocolate! It's a dish that goes all the way back to the Aztecs.

So they couldn't invent the wheel, and they sometimes practiced human sacrifice, but you have to hand it to them, they made a great chicken mole.

You start with chicken breasts, and saute them in EVOO (thank you Rachael Ray for that convenient abbeviation) until they are golden brown on all sides. Then, here's the good part, you pour a spicy unsweetened chocolate sauce over the chicken, cover, turn the heat way down and slooooowly cook the chicken until it's falling apart. Ambrosia with a spicy kick!

If someone will just pop this tray in the oven to keep it warm, I'll go off to study for the final. (grumble)

Back later with my Rembrandt comments.

Rich

Best memories of the discussion.

My best memory of the discussion was learning about my fellow Rembrandteers. Things such as Joan's trek across the country, and bravely carrying on the discussion while her book was in storage, while, at the same time, beginning a new California-style life, and doing such California things as dining in Malibu, and whale watching and chair yoga in the same morning.

Brian's passion for curling, both as a spectator and athlete. It's a sport I knew nothing about, but now I'm able to watch on TV and actually understand (somewhat). Also, Brian's ability to find anything on the Net, and bring it to us graphically, really gave dimension to the discussion.

I'll remember Ginny's great interest in books, including "Rembrandt's Eyes," and ability to ask the right thoughtful question at the right time to get us going whenever the discussion seemed to be slowing down. I particularly enjoy your bright personality and sense of humor, Ginny. Those qualities, in my opinion, are most important in a discussion leader.

EmmaBarb, Sorry, I cannot get the image out of my head of you as a little moppet in the orphanage, sliding down the front staircase bannister when the headmistress wasn't looking. But seriously, you have a kindness that comes through in your postings. Maybe it's from your orphanage years, or maybe it's just YOU.

I also envy your skill at art.

Sue, You were an infrequent poster, but when you did post, you hit the nail on the head and helped us to focus our attention.

Back later with the thing I liked most about the book.

Rich