Origin of Species ~ Charles Darwin ~ Part 3
patwest
September 16, 2006 - 06:59 am
The famous classic on evolution that revolutionized the course of science. Darwin's theory that species derive from other species by a gradual evolutionary process and that the average age level of each species is heightened by the "survival of the fittest" stirred popular debate of his time to a fever pitch. "Next to the Bible, no work has been quite as influential."--Ashley Montagu. Source

The concentration in this discussion would be on the words of Darwin himself. We would want to know, not what folks are saying about evolution, but what he said himself. By the time we finished, we would understand his theory as he presented it. It would be done in a manner similar to the one we have been using in Durant's Story of Civilization -- in other words, we act as if we are sitting around together in someone's living room, have just read together a specific paragraph and then react in whatever way we wish. We would not be overly regimented.--Robby
Online text is available here:
"On the Origin of Species."

British Library or Text
Discussion Leader: Robby

Origin of Species, Part 1
Origin of Species, Part 2


B&N Bookstore | Books Main Page | Book Discussion Guidelines | Suggest a Book for Discussion
We sometimes excerpt quotes from discussions to display on pages on SeniorNet's site or in print documents.
If you do NOT wish your words quoted, please contact Books.

patwest
September 16, 2006 - 08:02 am
Remember to Subscribe

robert b. iadeluca
September 16, 2006 - 08:31 am
Now that you have all clicked onto "Subscribe," let us continue. We have already written over 2,000 postings. Isn't that wonderful? OK, on to Darwin and "Instinct.":---

"Frederic Cuvier and several of the older metaphysicians have compared instinct with habit. This comparison gives, I think, an accurate notion of the frame of mind under which an instinctive action is performed, but not necessarily of its origin.

"How unconsciously many habitual actions are performed, indeed not rarely in direct opposition to our conscious will! Yet they may be modified by the will or reason.

"Habits easily become associated with other habits, with certain periods of time, and states of the body. When once acquired, they often remain constant throughout life.

"Several other points of resemblance between instincts and habits could be pointed out. As in repeating a well-known song, so in instincts, one action follows another by a sort of rhythm. If a person be interrupted in a song, or in repeating anything by rote, he is generally forced to go back to recover the habitual train of thought. So P. Huber found it was with a caterpillar, which makes a very complicated hammock. If he took a caterpillar which had completed its hammock up to, say, the sixth stage of construction, and put it into a hammock completed up only to the third stage, the caterpillar simply reperformed the fourth, fifth, and sixth stages of construction.

"If, however, a caterpillar were taken out of a hammock made up, for instance, to the third stage, and were put into one finished up to the sixth stage -- so that much of its work was already done for it -- far from deriving any benefit from this, it was much embarrassed. In order to complete its hammock, seemed it forced to start from the third stage, where it had left off, and thus tried to complete the already finished work.

"If we suppose any habitual action to become inherited -- and it can be shown that this does sometimes happen -- then the resemblance between what originally was a habit and an instinct becomes so close as not to be distinguished.

"If Mozart, instead of playing the pianoforte at three years old with wonderfully little practice, had played a tune with no practice at all, he might truly be said to have done so instinctively.

"But it would be a serious error to suppose that the greater number of instincts have been acquired by habit in one generation, and then transmitted by inheritance to succeeding generations. It can be clearly shown that the most wonderful instincts with which we are acquainted -- namely, those of the hive-bee and of many ants -- could not possibly have been acquired by habit."

What thoughts come to your mind? Did you "inherit" a habit that your parent had? Did your grandparent have that habit? How did your ancestor come about creating that habit?

Can you break a habit?

Just what do you see as instinct?

Robby

Bubble
September 16, 2006 - 09:12 am
My mother used to read a lot and I suppose it encouraged me to do the same. We usually finished a book in less than two days.

On the other hand, talents that I consider "my own" such as a facility for handcrafts, knitting and crochet in particular, were never done by my mother. I have been told that both my grandmothers and at least one great-grand were experts but I never met them. Does it mean it was passed to me? I don't know... I was also told that I learned to knit, make patterns almost by myself and at a very early age.

Some talents (especially music and acting) do run in families.

Scrawler
September 16, 2006 - 09:19 am
Both my grandfathers had a knack for telling oral stories, which is where I think I got my desire to write stories and my whole family encouraged me to read. My daughter inherited that reading ability. But neither my son or my husband were readers; they preferred to watch TV or movies, although they both read technical books. Now that my daughter is studying to be a biochemist she too reads a lot of technical books.

robert b. iadeluca
September 17, 2006 - 02:50 am
"It will be universally admitted that instincts are as important as corporeal structures for the welfare of each species, under its present conditions of life.

"Under changed conditions of life, it is at least possible that slight modifications of instinct might be profitable to a species. If it can be shown that instincts do vary ever so little, then I can see no difficulty in natural selection preserving and continually accumulating variations of instinct to any extent that was profitable.

"It is thus, as I believe, that all the most complex and wonderful instincts have originated. As modifications of corporeal structure arise from, and are increased by, use or habit -- and are diminished or lost by disuse -- so I do not doubt it has been with instincts.

"But I believe that the effects of habit are in many cases of subordinate importance to the effects of the natural selection of what may be called spontaneous variations of instincts -- that is of variations produced by the same unknown causes which produce slight deviations of bodily structure.

"No complex instinct can possibly be produced through natural selection, except by the slow and gradual accumulation of numerous slight, yet profitable, variations.

"Hence, as in the case of corporeal structures, we ought to find in nature, not the actual transitional gradations by which each complex instinct has been acquired -- for these could be found only in the lineal ancestors of each species -- but we ought to find in the collateral lines of descent some evidence of such gradations.

"We ought at least to be able to show that gradations of some kind are possible. This we certainly can do.

"I have been surprised to find -- making allowance for the instincts of animals having been but little observed except in Europe and North America, and for no instinct being known amongst extinct species -- how very generally gradations, leading to the most complex instincts, can be discovered.

"Changes of instinct may sometimes be facilitated by the same species having different instincts at different periods of life -- or at different seasons of the year -- or when placed under different circumstances -- in which case either the one or the other instinct might be preserved by natural selection.

"Such instances of diversity of instinct in the same species can be shown to occur in nature."

If I understand this correctly, instincts can change if the environment changes. And therefore, Darwin says, natural selection chooses one instinct over another. Then, he adds, a particular instinct affects the structure of the species. The wings of the migrating goose?

If the geese strop migrating and hang around in one area for years, then the wing structure changes due to disuse?

Darwin also speaks of "spontaneous variations" of instincts. He doesn't know what causes this spontaneity and speaks of "unknown causes."

What are your thoughts?

Robby

Mallylee
September 17, 2006 - 03:13 am
Am I right in thinking that throughout his discussions of 'instincts' that Darwin always implies that instincts are behaviours, but never applies the idea of inbred behaviours to brain structures of brain chemicals?

Bubble
September 17, 2006 - 04:19 am
storing food for winter would be an instinct?

robert b. iadeluca
September 17, 2006 - 04:29 am
Squirrels store, ants store, bees store. There's a message here somewhere.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 18, 2006 - 04:28 am
"Again, as in the case of corporeal structure, and conformably to my theory, the instinct of each species is good for itself, but has never, as far as we can judge, been produced for the exclusive good of others.

"One of the strongest instances of an animal apparently performing an action for the sole good of another, with which I am acquainted, is that of aphides voluntarily yielding, as was first observed by Huber, their sweet excretion to ants. That they do so voluntarily, the following facts show.

"I removed all the ants from a group of about a dozen aphides on a dock-plant, and prevented their attendance during several hours. After this interval, I felt sure that the aphides would want to excrete. I watched them for some time through a lens, but not one excreted; I then tickled and stroked them with a hair in the same manner, as well as I could, as the ants do with their antennae; but not one excreted.

"Afterwards I allowed an ant to visit them, and it immediately seemed, by its eager way of running about, to be well aware what a rich flock it had discovered. It then began to play with its antennae on the abdomen first of one aphis and then of another. Each, as soon as it felt the antennae, immediately lifted up its abdomen and excreted a limpid drop of sweet juice, which was eagerly devoured by the ant.

"Even the quite young aphides behaved in this manner, showing that the action was instinctive, and not the result of experience.

"It is certain, from the observations of Huber, that the aphides show no dislike to the ants: if the latter be not present they are at last compelled to eject their excretion. But as the excretion is extremely viscid, it is no doubt a convenience to the aphides to have it removed. Therefore probably they do not excrete solely for the good of the ants.

"Although there is no evidence that any animal performs an action for the exclusive good of another species, yet each tries to take advantage of the instincts of others, as each takes advantage of the weaker bodily structure of other species. So again instincts cannot be considered as absolutely perfect. As details on this and other such points are not indispensable, they may be here passed over.

"As some degree of variation in instincts under a state of nature -- and the inheritance of such variations -- are indispensable for the action of natural selection, as many instances as possible ought to be given. Want of space prevents me.

"I can only assert that instincts certainly do vary -- for instance, the migratory instinct, both in extent and direction, and in its total loss.

"So it is with the nests of birds -- which vary partly in dependence on the situations chosen, and on the nature and temperature of the country inhabited -- but often from causes wholly unknown to us. Audubon has given several remarkable cases of differences in the nests of the same species in the northern and southern United States.

"Why, it has been asked, if instinct be variable, has it not granted to the bee "the ability to use some other material when wax was deficient"? But what other natural material could bees use? They will work, as I have seen, with wax hardened with vermilion or softened with lard.

"Andrew Knight observed that his bees, instead of laboriously collecting propolis, used a cement of wax and turpentine, with which he had covered decorticated trees. It has lately been shown that bees, instead of searching for pollen, will gladly use a very different substance, namely oatmeal.

"Fear of any particular enemy is certainly an instinctive quality, as may be seen in nestling birds, though it is strengthened by experience, and by the sight of fear of the same enemy in other animals.

"The fear of man is slowly acquired, as I have elsewhere shown, by the various animals which inhabit desert islands. We see an instance of this even in England, in the greater wildness of all our large birds in comparison with our small birds.

"The large birds have been most persecuted by man. We may safely attribute the greater wildness of our large birds to this cause. In uninhabited islands large birds are not more fearful than small. The magpie, so wary in England, is tame in Norway, as is the hooded crow in Egypt."

Some very interesting items here about instinct.

Robby

Bubble
September 18, 2006 - 01:11 pm
Shark that walks on fins is discovered

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060918/ap_on_sc/underwater_discoveries_1

robert b. iadeluca
September 18, 2006 - 05:18 pm
Bubble:-This is exactly what Darwin has been telling us -- preparing to move from ocean to land and gradually changing from one species to another.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 18, 2006 - 05:21 pm
Inherited Changes of Habit or Instinct in Domesticated Animals

robert b. iadeluca
September 18, 2006 - 05:36 pm
"The possibility, or even probability, of inherited variations of instinct in a state of nature will be strengthened by briefly considering a few cases under domestication.

"We shall thus be enabled to see the part which habit and the selection of so-called spontaneous variations have played in modifying the mental qualities of our domestic animals.

"It is notorious how much domestic animals vary in their mental qualities. With cats, for instance, one naturally takes to catching rats, and another mice, and these tendencies are known to be inherited. One cat, according to Mr. St. John, always brought home gamebirds, another hares or rabbits, and another hunted on marshy ground and almost nightly caught woodcocks or snipes.

"A number of curious and authentic instances could be given of various shades of disposition and of taste, and likewise of the oddest tricks, associated with certain frames of mind or periods of time, being inherited.

"But let us look to the familiar case of the breeds of the dogs. It cannot be doubted that young pointers (I have myself seen a striking instance) will sometimes point and even back other dogs the very first time that they are taken out.

"Retrieving is certainly in some degree inherited by retrievers -- and a tendency to run round, instead of at, a flock of sheep, by shepherd dogs. I cannot see that these actions, performed without experience by the young, and in nearly the same manner by each individual, performed with eager delight by each breed, and without the end being known- for the young pointer can no more know that he points to aid his master, than the white butterfly knows why she lays her eggs on the leaf of the cabbage-

"I cannot see that these actions differ essentially from true instincts. If we were to behold one kind of wolf -- when young and without any training, as soon as it scented its prey -- stand motionless like a statue -- and then slowly crawl forward with a peculiar gait -- and another kind of wolf rushing round, instead of at, a herd of deer, and driving them to a distant point -- we should assuredly call these actions instinctive.

"Domestic instincts, as they may be called, are certainly far less fixed than natural instincts. But they have been acted on by far less rigorous selection, and have been transmitted for an incomparably shorter period, under less fixed conditions of life.

"How strongly these domestic instincts, habits, and dispositions are inherited, and how curiously they become mingled, is well shown when different breeds of dogs are crossed.

"Thus it is known that a cross with a bull-dog has affected for many generations the courage and obstinacy of greyhounds. A cross with a greyhound has given to a whole family of shepherd-dogs a tendency to hunt hares.

"These domestic instincts, when thus tested by crossing, resemble natural instincts, which in a like manner become curiously blended together, and for a long period exhibit traces of the instincts of either parent.

"For example, Le Roy describes a dog, whose great-grandfather was a wolf, and this dog showed a trace of its wild parentage only in one way, by not coming in a straight line to his master, when called."

Any comments on these "instincts?"

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 19, 2006 - 03:38 am
"Domestic instincts are sometimes spoken of as actions which have become inherited solely from long-continued and compulsory habit, but this is not true.

"No one would ever have thought of teaching, or probably could have taught, the tumbler-pigeon to tumble,- an action which, as I have witnessed, is performed by young birds, that have never seen a pigeon tumble. We may believe that some one pigeon showed a slight tendency to this strange habit, and that the long-continued selection of the best individuals in successive generations made tumblers what they now are.

"Near Glasgow there are house-tumblers, as I hear from Mr. Brent, which cannot fly eighteen inches high without going head over heels.

"It may be doubted whether any one would have thought of training a dog to point, had not some one dog naturally shown a tendency in this line; and this is known occasionally to happen, as I once saw, in a pure terrier. The act of pointing is probably, as many have thought, only the exaggerated pause of an animal preparing to spring on its prey.

"When the first tendency to point was once displayed, methodical selection and the inherited effects of compulsory training in each successive generation would soon complete the work. Unconscious selection is still in progress, as each man tries to procure, without intending to improve the breed, dogs which stand and hunt best.

"On the other hand, habit alone in some cases has sufficed. Hardly any animal is more difficult to tame than the young of the wild rabbit. Scarcely any animal is tamer than the young of the tame rabbit. But I can hardly suppose that domestic rabbits have often been selected for tameness alone. We must attribute at least the greater part of the inherited change from extreme wildness to extreme tameness, to habit and long-continued close confinement.

"Natural instincts are lost under domestication.

"A remarkable instance of this is seen in those breeds of fowls which very rarely or never become "broody," that is, never wish to sit on their eggs.

"Familiarity alone prevents our seeing how largely and how permanently the minds of our domestic animals have been modified. It is scarcely possible to doubt that the love of man has become instinctive in the dog. All wolves, foxes, jackals, and species of the cat genus, when kept tame, are most eager to attack poultry, sheep, and pigs; and this tendency has been found incurable in dogs which have been brought home as puppies from countries such as Tierra del Fuego and Australia, where the savages do not keep these domestic animals.

"How rarely, on the other hand, do our civilised dogs, even when quite young, require to be taught not to attack poultry, sheep, and pigs! No doubt they occasionally do make an attack, and are then beaten; and if not cured, they are destroyed; so that habit and some degree of selection have probably concurred in civilising by inheritance our dogs.

"On the other hand, young chickens have lost, wholly by habit, that fear of the dog and cat which no doubt was originally instinctive with them; for I am informed by Captain Hutton that the young chickens of the parent-stock, the Gallus bankiva, when reared in India under a hen, are at first excessively wild.

"So it is with young pheasants reared in England under a hen. It is not that chickens have lost all fear, but fear only of dogs and cats, for if the hen gives the danger-chuckle, they will run (more especially young turkeys) from under her, and conceal themselves in the surrounding grass or thickets; and this is evidently done for the instinctive purpose of allowing as we see in wild ground-birds, their mother to fly away.

"But this instinct retained by our chickens has become useless under domestication, for the mother-hen has almost lost by disuse the power of flight."

Anyone here with me?

Robby

Malryn
September 19, 2006 - 04:21 am

I am, ROBBY. Never knew about the "danger-chuckle", but I've seen chickens tear themselves away from their mother and scurry to the long grass field.

Mal

tooki
September 19, 2006 - 10:41 am
On Instincts (I think):

I once owned two Wolf Hybrids, as they were called, a mix of pure Alaskan Husky and Red Wolf. They were extremely beautiful, with an etheral beauty and strange eyes that I didn't want to look closely at. But that's not the point.

They were docile and tractable, albeit not the slightest bit loving, training easily to sit, stay, heel, and so forth. What they could not learn or perform was walking well on a leash. THEY PULLED! It took me awhile to figure out that Alaskan Huskies had been bred over centuries to pull. A one generation cross with a Wolf was not going to get that pulling instinct out of them.

So we ran them off leash, hoping no one saw them and shot 'em. Wolves were not welcome where I was.

Malryn
September 20, 2006 - 05:19 am

"The outstanding [misunderstanding of evolutionary theory] is clearly the equation of evolution with progress. People believe that evolution is a process that moves creatures toward greater complexity through time. This makes our very late appearance in the history of the Earth a sensible outcome. The word evolution means progress, but for Darwin, evolution is adaptation to changing local environments, which are randomly moving through time. There is no principle of general advance in that."
~Stephen Jay Gould



From: "Stephen Jay Gould." Boston Globe Magazine (Dec. 31, 1995).
(c)1995, Boston Globe.

robert b. iadeluca
September 20, 2006 - 05:30 am
That's an excellent quote, Mal, helping us to get the overall picture.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 20, 2006 - 05:51 am
Special Instincts

robert b. iadeluca
September 20, 2006 - 06:00 am
"We shall, perhaps, best understand how instincts in a state of nature have become modified by selection by considering a few cases.

"I will select only three -- namely, the instinct which leads the cuckoo to lay her eggs in other birds' nests -- the slave-making instinct of certain ants -- and the cell-making power of the hive-bee. These two latter instincts have generally and justly been ranked by naturalists as the most wonderful of all known instincts.

"Instincts of the Cuckoo. It is supposed by some naturalists that the more immediate cause of the instinct of the cuckoo is, that she lays her eggs, not daily, but at intervals of two or three days -- so that, if she were to make her own nest and sit on her own eggs those first laid would have to be left for some time unincubated -- or there would be eggs and young birds of different ages in the same nest.

"If this were the case, the process of laying and hatching might be inconveniently long, more especially as she migrates at a very early period. The first hatched young would probably have to be fed by the male alone.

"But the American cuckoo is in this predicament. She makes her own nest, and has eggs and young successively hatched, all at the same time. It has been both asserted and denied that the American cuckoo occasionally lays her eggs in other birds' nests.

"I have lately heard from Dr. Merrell, of Iowa, that he once found in Illinois a young cuckoo together with a young jay in the nest of a blue jay (Garrulus cristatus). As both were nearly full feathered, there could be no mistake in their identification.

"I could also give several instances of various birds which have been known occasionally to lay their eggs in other birds' nests.

"Now let us suppose that the ancient progenitor of our European cuckoo had the habits of the American cuckoo, and that she occasionally laid an egg in another bird's nest. If the old bird profited by this occasional habit through being enabled to migrate earlier or through any other cause -- or if the young were made more vigorous by advantage being taken of the mistaken instinct of another species than when reared by their own mother -- encumbered as she could hardly fail to be by having eggs and young of different ages at the same time -- then the old birds or the fostered young would gain an advantage.

"And analogy would lead us to believe, that the young thus reared would be apt to follow by inheritance the occasional and aberrant habit of their mother, and in their turn would be apt to lay their eggs in other birds' nests --and thus be more successful in rearing their young.

"By a continued process of this nature, I believe that the strange instinct of our cuckoo has been generated.

"It has, also, recently been ascertained on sufficient evidence, by Adolf Muller, that the cuckoo occasionally lays her eggs on the bare ground, sits on them, and feeds her young. This rare event is probably a case of reversion to the long-lost, aboriginal instinct of nidification."

Comments, anyone?

Robby

Scrawler
September 20, 2006 - 09:57 am
Why wouldn't the mother jay know that the cukoo's egg wasn't her own and push it out of the nest?

Bubble
September 20, 2006 - 11:15 am
Scrawler, if someone abandonned a newborn on your doorstep, would you throw the baby out or would you give him shelter and food?

Mallylee
September 20, 2006 - 02:12 pm
That's a worthwhile fact to remember Malryn

Mallylee
September 20, 2006 - 02:20 pm
I wonder if some birds pass cultural i.e. learned, behaviour to their young. Parrots, and the crow family are said to be intelligent birds. I do know that chaffinches have local dialects, and I have heard this myself. Where I was when I was a child the chaffinches sang a more complete cadence than they do here where the cadence sounds to me left hanging.

robert b. iadeluca
September 20, 2006 - 04:35 pm
Bubble:-Are you attributing human characteristics to the mother Jay or are we talking about instincts?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 20, 2006 - 04:55 pm
"It has been objected that I have not noticed other related instincts and adaptations of structure in the cuckoo, which are spoken of as necessarily co-ordinated.

"But in all cases, speculation on an instinct known to us only in a single species, is useless. We have hitherto had no facts to guide us.

"Until recently the instincts of the European and of the nonparasitic American cuckoo alone were known. Now, owing to Mr. Ramsay's observations, we have learnt something about three Australian species, which lay their eggs in other birds' nests.

"The chief points to be referred to are three. First, that the common cuckoo, with rare exceptions, lays only one egg in a nest, so that the large and voracious young bird receives ample food.

"Secondly, that the eggs are remarkably small, not exceeding those of the skylark -- a bird about one-fourth as large as the cuckoo. That the small size of the egg is a real cause of adaptation we may infer from the fact of the non-parasitic American cuckoo laying full-sized eggs.

"Thirdly, that the young cuckoo, soon after birth, has the instinct, the strength, and a properly shaped back for ejecting its foster-brothers, which then perish from cold and hunger.

"This has been boldly called a beneficent arrangement, in order that the young cuckoo may get sufficient food, and that its foster-brothers may perish before they had acquired much feeling!

"Turning now to the Australian species.

"Though these birds generally lay only one egg in a nest, it is not rare to find two or even three eggs in the same nest. In the bronze cuckoo the eggs vary greatly in size, from eight to ten times in length.

"Now if it had been of an advantage to this species to have laid eggs even smaller than those now laid -- so as to have deceived certain foster-parents -- or, as is more probable, to have been hatched within a shorter period -- for it is asserted that there is a relation between the size of eggs and the period of their incubation -- then there is no difficulty in believing that a race or species might have been formed which would have laid smaller and smaller eggs.

"For these would have been more safely hatched and reared.

"Mr. Ramsay remarks that two of the Australian cuckoos, when they lay their eggs in an open nest, manifest a decided preference for nests containing eggs similar in colour to their own. The European species apparently manifests some tendency towards a similar instinct, but not rarely departs from it -- as is shown by her laying her dull and pale-coloured eggs in the nest of the Hedge-warbler with bright greenish-blue eggs.

"Had our cuckoo invariably displayed the above instinct, it would assuredly have been added to those which it is assumed must all have been acquired together.

"The eggs of the Australian bronze cuckoo vary, according to Mr. Ramsay, to an extraordinary degree in colour. In this respect, as well as in size, natural selection might have secured and fixed any advantageous variation."

A bird cares for his brother and kills him in infancy before he has much feeling?

Robby

Mallylee
September 21, 2006 - 12:26 am
It's easy to guess how the cuckoo specie is advantaged by using other species as parents. I can imagine only that hedge warblers that host the baby cuckoos are too prolific for the good of their specie without the check of the cuckoo babies.

Human wet nurses used to neglect their own offspring to earn their livings by nursing the offspring of those who could pay them to do so. Here, the immediate pay-back for the poor host mother is obvious. It's less obvious what the long term pay back is for the poor family. Perhaps it is that human society as a whole benefits from hierarchical class structure. This is not a PC point of view but maybe we could consider social Darwinism sometime?

Bubble
September 21, 2006 - 12:47 am
Instinct of course, Robby. Maternal instinct... The law for survival... Love in general...

Tomorrow night is New Year eve for me.

Here is a New Year (instinctive) kiss for all of you, my friends...

http://usera.imagecave.com/sop_bubble/miscellaneous/1stkiss.jpg

robert b. iadeluca
September 21, 2006 - 03:42 am
That was beautiful!!! Thank you for your wish, Bubble.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 21, 2006 - 04:01 am
"Many bees are parasitic, and regularly lay their eggs in the nests of other kinds of bees.

"This case is more remarkable than that of the cuckoo. These bees have not only had their instincts but their structure modified in accordance with their parasitic habits. They do not possess the pollen-collecting apparatus which would have been indispensable if they had stored up food for their own young.

"Some species of Sphegidea (wasp-like insects) are likewise parasitic. M. Fabre has lately shown good reason for believing that -- although the Tachytes nigra generally makes its own burrow and stores it with paralysed prey for its own larvae -- yet that, when this insect finds a burrow already made and stored by another species, it takes advantage of the prize and becomes for the occasion parasitic.

"In this case, as with that of the Molothrus or cuckoo, I can see no difficulty in natural selection making an occasional habit permanent, if of advantage to the species, and if the insect whose nest and stored food are feloniously appropriated, be not thus exterminated.

"Slave-making instinct.-

"This remarkable instinct was first discovered in the Formica (Polyerges) rufescens by Pierre Huber, a better observer even than his celebrated father.

"This ant is absolutely dependent on its slaves. Without their aid, the species would certainly become extinct in a single year.

"The males and fertile female do no work of any kind, and the workers or sterile females, though most energetic and courageous in capturing slaves, do no other work.

"They are incapable of making their own nests, or of feeding their own larvae. When the old nest is found inconvenient, and they have to migrate, it is the slaves which determine the migration, and actually carry their masters in their jaws.

"So utterly helpless are the masters, that when Huber shut up thirty of them without a slave, but with plenty of the food which they like best -- and with their own larvae and pupae to stimulate them to work -- they did nothing. They could not even feed themselves, and many perished of hunger.

"Huber then introduced a single slave (F. fusca), and she instantly set to work -- fed and saved the survivors -- made some cells and tended the larvae -- and put all to rights. What can be more extraordinary than these well-ascertained facts? If we had not known of any other slave-making ant, it would have been hopeless to speculate how so wonderful an instinct could have been perfected."

Isn't nature amazing?! I keep wondering -- are some "destined" to take care of others?

Robby

Bubble
September 21, 2006 - 05:08 am


Little Girl, 3 Million Years Old

bluefin
September 23, 2006 - 02:05 am
Hi everybody!

I was reading the post earlier about the cuckoo. It turns out that most bird species parasitized by cuckoos and cowbirds have a hard time to make the disticntion between their own eggs and the new ones. Often the cuckoo's eggs can look quite similar and most of the parasitized birds are not too bright in terms of figuring out the distinction. It has been observed that some parents abandon the nest (including their eggs) to build a new one. What is more amazing to me is that the parents never recognize the huge monster hatchling that soon will tower over them as they keep feeding it. There are lots of nest parasites among birds. It is pretty common among some duck species as well. Great strategy to avoid the work of a parent. In terms of the host I guess it doesn't say much about the intelligence of birds.

Speaking about parasites - there is a really great book by Carl Zimmer called "Parasite Rex" which is a fascinating view into the life of parasites.

Well, I couldn't resist that post about the cuckoo...

Peter

robert b. iadeluca
September 23, 2006 - 04:32 am
Hi, Bluefin! Welcome to our site here. If you have been lurking, then you know we are going paragraph by paragraph through Darwin's book, "Origin of Species." Please comment on Darwin's remarks as we move along.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 24, 2006 - 05:17 am
"Another species, Formica sanguinea, was likewise first discovered by P. Huber to be a slave-making ant.

"This species is found in the southern parts of England, and its habits have been attended to by Mr. F. Smith, of the British Museum, to whom I am much indebted for information on this and other subjects. Although fully trusting to the statements of Huber and Mr. Smith, I tried to approach the subject in a sceptical frame of mind, as any one may well be excused for doubting the existence of so extraordinary an instinct as that of making slaves.

"Hence, I will give the observations which I made in some little detail. I opened fourteen nests of F. sanguinea, and found a few slaves in all. Males and fertile females of the slave species (F. fusca) are found only in their own proper communities, and have never been observed in the nests of F. sanguinea.

"The slaves are black and not above half the size of their red masters, so that the contrast in their appearance is great. When the nest is slightly disturbed, the slaves occasionally come out, and like their masters are much agitated and defend the nest. When the nest is much disturbed, and the larvae and pupae are exposed, the slaves work energetically together with their masters in carrying them away to a place of safety.

"Hence, it is clear, that the slaves feel quite at home.

"During the months of June and July, on three successive years, I watched for many hours several nests in Surrey and Sussex, and never saw a slave either leave or enter a nest. As, during these months, the slaves are very few in number, I thought that they might behave differently when more numerous; but Mr. Smith informs me that he has watched the nests at various hours during May, June, and August, both in Surrey and Hampshire, and has never seen the slaves, though present in large numbers in August, either leave or enter the nest.

"Hence he considers them as strictly household slaves. The masters, on the other hand, may be constantly seen bringing in materials for the nest, and food of all kinds.

"During the year 1860, however, in the month of July, I came across a community with an unusually large stock of slaves, and I observed a few slaves mingled with their masters leaving the nest, and marching along the same road to a tall Scotch-fir-tree, twenty-five yards distant, which they ascended together, probably in search of aphides or cocci.

"According to Huber, who had ample opportunities for observation, the slaves in Switzerland habitually work with their masters in making the nest, and they alone open and close the doors in the morning and evening. As Huber expressly states, their principal office is to search for aphides. This difference in the usual habits of the masters and slaves in the two countries, probably depends merely on the slaves being captured in greater numbers in Switzerland than in England."

Isn't that amazing? Born to be slaves?

Robby

tooki
September 24, 2006 - 08:16 pm
A house in my neighborhood has this year become a stopping off place for about 400 Chimney Swifts. The house has a large, three story chimney. The Swifts have been here for three nights. The word of their presence spread all over the neighborhood as fast as the Swifts fly, and everyone goes to see them.

Swifts migrate to Peru for the winter, and used to use hollow trees for cover. Since there are no longer many hollow trees either in Oregon or the Amazon, they have adapted to chimneys.

How long do you suppose it took them to adapt to chimneys instead of hollow trees? I wonder how they physically changed. Oh, right. They descend into the chimney in a double helix formation.

Bubble
September 24, 2006 - 11:39 pm
tooki, lol

robert b. iadeluca
September 25, 2006 - 03:45 am
Tooki:-This is a very serious discussion. We have no time for such frivolity.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 25, 2006 - 03:54 am

"One day I fortunately witnessed a migration of F. sanguinea from one nest to another, and it was a most interesting spectacle to behold the masters carefully carrying their slaves in their jaws instead of being carried by them, as in the case of F. rufescens.

"Another day my attention was struck by about a score of the slave-makers haunting the same spot, and evidently not in search of food. They approached and were vigorously repulsed by an independent community of the slave-species (F. fusca) -- sometimes as many as three of these ants clinging to the legs of the slavemaking F. sanguinea.

"The latter ruthlessly killed their small opponents, and carried their dead bodies as food to their nest, twenty-nine yards distant. But they were prevented from getting any pupae to rear as slaves.

"I then dug up a small parcel of the pupae of F. fusca from another nest, and put them down on a bare spot near the place of combat. They were eagerly seized and carried off by the tyrants, who perhaps fancied that, after all, they had been victorious in their late combat.

"At the same time I laid on the same place a small parcel of the pupae of another species, F. flava, with a few of these little yellow ants still clinging to the fragments of their nest. This species is sometimes, though rarely, made into slaves, as has been described by Mr. Smith.

"Although so small a species, it is very courageous, and I have seen it ferociously attack other ants. In one instance I found to my surprise an independent community of F. flava under a stone beneath a nest of the slavemaking F. sanguinea; and when I had accidentally disturbed both nests, the little ants attacked their big neighbours with surprising courage.

"Now I was curious to ascertain whether F. sanguinea could distinguish the pupae of F. fusca, which they habitually make into slaves, from those of the little and furious F. flava, which they rarely capture. It was evident that they did at once distinguish them; for we have seen that they eagerly and instantly seized the pupae of F. fusca, whereas they were much terrified when they came across the pupae or even the earth from the nest, of F. flava, and quickly ran away.

"In about a quarter of an hour, shortly after all the little yellow ants had crawled away, they took heart and carried off the pupae."

Some of this makes us think about ourselves, doesn't it?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 29, 2006 - 05:25 am
Summary of Chapter Eight

robert b. iadeluca
September 29, 2006 - 05:35 am
"I have endeavoured in this chapter briefly to show that the mental qualities of our domestic animals vary, and that the variations are inherited.

"Still more briefly I have attempted to show that instincts vary slightly in a state of nature.

"No one will dispute that instincts are of the highest importance to each animal. Therefore there is no real difficulty -- under changing conditions of life -- in natural selection accumulating to any extent slight modifications of instinct which are in any way useful. In many cases habit or use and disuse have probably come into play.

"I do not pretend that the facts given in this chapter strengthen in any great degree my theory. But none of the cases of difficulty, to the best of my judgment, annihilate it.

"On the other hand, the fact that instincts are not always absolutely perfect and are liable to mistakes -- that no instinct can be shown to have been produced for the good of other animals, though animals take advantage of the instincts of others -- that the canon in natural history, of "Natura non facit saltum," is applicable to instincts as well as to corporeal structure, and is plainly explicable on the foregoing views, but is otherwise inexplicable, all tend to corroborate the theory of natural selection.

"This theory is also strengthened by some few other facts in regard to instincts -- as by that common case of closely allied, but distinct species -- when inhabiting distant parts of the world and living under considerably different conditions of life, yet often retaining nearly the same instincts.

"For instance, we can understand, on the principle of inheritance, how it is that the thrush of tropical South America lines its nest with mud, in the same peculiar manner as does our British thrush. How it is that the hornbills of Africa and India have the same extraordinary instinct of plastering up and imprisoning the females in a hole in a tree, with only a small hole left in the plaster through which the males feed them and their young when hatched. How it is that the male wrens (Troglodytes) of North America build "cocknests," to roost in, like the males of our kittywrens,- a habit wholly unlike that of any other known bird.

"Finally, it may not be a logical deduction, but to my imagination it is far more satisfactory to look at such instincts as the young cuckoo ejecting its foster-brothers -- ants making slaves -- the larvae of ichneumonidea feeding within the live bodies of caterpillars -- not as specially endowed or created instincts, but as small consequences of one general law leading to the advancement of all organic beings --- namely, multiply, vary, let the strongest live and the weakest die."

Let all organisms multiply, vary and live if they can. Is that the story of life?

Robby

Mallylee
September 30, 2006 - 12:50 am
Myself, I prefer to think in Dawkins's mode, about genes being self replicators, which explains the engine behind natural selection and 'instincts'.

As for Darwin's insistence on 'instincts' as the universal cause of animal behaviour, is it not true that some more intelligent animals have recognisable cultures? For instance, a domestic mother dog will instruct her puppies in how to be sociable towards their human hosts.True, domestic dogs are 'instinctually' sociable towards humans in a general way, but the mother dog will train her pups in behaviours that are specific to their own human pack such as that they are not to go upstairs, or not to eat the humans' food.

robert b. iadeluca
September 30, 2006 - 05:19 am
Chapter Nine

Hybridism

robert b. iadeluca
September 30, 2006 - 05:27 am
This should prove to be an intriguing chapter.

"The view commonly entertained by naturalists is that species, when intercrossed, have been specially endowed with sterility, in order to prevent their confusion.

"This view certainly seems at first highly probable, for species living together could hardly have been kept distinct had they been capable of freely crossing.

"The subject is in many ways important for us, more especially as the sterility of species when first crossed -- and that of their hybrid offspring -- cannot have been acquired, as I shall show, by the preservation of successive profitable degrees of sterility.

"It is an incidental result of differences in the reproductive systems of the parent-species.

"In treating this subject, two classes of facts, to a large extent fundamentally different, have generally been confounded. Namely, the sterility of species when first crossed, and the sterility of the hybrids produced from them.

"Pure species have of course their organs of reproduction in a perfect condition. Yet when intercrossed they produce either few or no offspring.

"Hybrids, on the other hand, have their reproductive organs functionally impotent -- as may be clearly seen in the state of the male element in both plants and animals -- though the formative organs themselves are perfect in structure, as far as the microscope reveals.

"In the first case the two sexual elements which go to form the embryo are perfect. In the second case they are either not at all developed, or are imperfectly developed.

"This distinction is important when the cause of the sterility, which is common to the two cases, has to be considered. The distinction probably has been slurred over, owing to the sterility in both cases being looked on as a special endowment, beyond the province of our reasoning powers."

Any comments about hybrids?

Robby

Bubble
September 30, 2006 - 05:41 am
can every species have hybrids? mmm...

robert b. iadeluca
September 30, 2006 - 05:53 am
And are we trying to create any?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
September 30, 2006 - 03:01 pm
"The fertility of varieties -- that is of the forms known or believed to be descended from common parents, when crossed, and likewise the fertility of their mongrel offspring -- is, with reference to my theory, of equal importance with the sterility of species. It seems to make a broad and clear distinction between varieties and species.

"Degrees of Sterility.- First, for the sterility of species when crossed and of their hybrid offspring.

"It is impossible to study the several memoirs and works of those two conscientious and admirable observers, Kolreuter and Gartner, who almost devoted their lives to this subject, without being deeply impressed with the high generality of some degree of sterility.

"Kolreuter makes the rule universal. Then he cuts the knot, for in ten cases in which he found two forms -- considered by most authors as distinct species, quite fertile together -- he unhesitatingly ranks them as varieties.

"Gartner, also, makes the rule equally universal. He disputes the entire fertility of Kolreuter's ten cases.

"But in these and in many other cases, Gartner is obliged carefully to count the seeds, in order to show that there is any degree of sterility.

"He always compares the maximum number of seeds produced by two species when first crossed -- and the maximum produced by their hybrid offspring -- with the average number produced by both pure parent-species in a state of nature.

"But causes of serious error here intervene. A plant, to be hybridised, must be castrated -- and, what is often more important -- must be secluded in order to prevent pollen being brought to it by insects from other plants.

"Nearly all the plants experimented on by Gartner were potted, and were kept in a chamber in his house. That these processes are often injurious to the fertility of a plant cannot be doubted. For Gartner gives in his table about a score of cases of plants which he castrated, and artificially fertilised with their own pollen -- and (excluding all cases such as the Leguminosae, in which there is an acknowledged difficulty in the manipulation) -- half of these twenty plants had their fertility in some degree impaired.

"Moreover, as Gartner repeatedly crossed some forms, such as the common red and blue pimpernels (Anagallis arvensis and caerulea) -- which the best botanists rank as varieties, and found them absolutely sterile -- we may doubt whether many species are really so sterile, when intercrossed, as he believed."

I doubt, over the years and generations, there has been a naturalist more exacting with details than Darwin. He not only indicates the "sloppiness" of other naturalists but invites them, and everybody, to find mistakes in his experiments.

Robby

Bubble
October 1, 2006 - 01:44 am
I hope he was not so finicky and meticulous in his familial life! It could drive any one over the bend. lol

Did you know that the pommegrenate always contains 613 seeds? I wonder if Dartner or Darwin checked that. It is said to be the same number as the commandements in the Torah and the fruit is ripe in the month the commandments were given to Moses on Month Sinai, and when every year one start reading the Torah from start in synagogues around the world. (Just an aparte, sorry, Robby!) Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
October 2, 2006 - 02:43 am
"It is certain -- on the one hand, that the sterility of various species when crossed is so different in degree and graduates away so insensibly -- and, on the other hand, that the fertility of pure species is so easily affected by various circumstances. For all practical purposes it is most difficult to say where perfect fertility ends and sterility begins.

"I think no better evidence of this can be required than that the two most experienced observers who have ever lived, namely Kolreuter and Gartner, arrived at diametrically opposite conclusions in regard to some of the very same forms.

"It is also most instructive to compare -- but I have not space here to enter on details -- the evidence advanced by our best botanists on the question whether certain doubtful forms should be ranked as species or varieties -- with the evidence from fertility adduced by different hybridisers -- or by the same observer from experiments made during different years.

"It can thus be shown that neither sterility nor fertility affords any certain distinction between species and varieties. The evidence from this source graduates away, and is doubtful in the same degree as is the evidence derived from other constitutional and structural differences.

"In regard to the sterility of hybrids in successive generations:-- though Gartner was enabled to rear some hybrids -- carefully guarding them from a cross with either pure parent -- for six or seven, and in one case for ten generations.

"Yet he asserts positively that their fertility never increases, but generally decreases greatly and suddenly.

"With respect to this decrease, it may first be noticed that when any deviation in structure or constitution is common to both parents, this is often transmitted in an augmented degree to the offspring. Both sexual elements in hybrid plants are already affected in some degree.

"But I believe that their fertility has been diminished in nearly all these cases by an independent cause, namely, by too close interbreeding.

"I have made so many experiments and collected so many facts -- showing on the one hand that an occasional cross with a distinct individual or variety increases the vigour and fertility of the offspring -- and on the other hand that very close interbreeding lessens their vigour and fertility -- that I cannot doubt the correctness of this conclusion.

"Hybrids are seldom raised by experimentalists in great numbers. As the parent-species, or other allied hybrids, generally grow in the same garden, the visits of insects must be carefully prevented during the flowering season. Hence hybrids, if left to themselves, will generally be fertilised during each generation by pollen from the same flower. This would probably be injurious to their fertility, already lessened by their hybrid origin.

"I am strengthened in this conviction by a remarkable statement repeatedly made by Gartner -- namely, that if even the less fertile hybrids be artificially fertilised with hybrid pollen of the same kind, their fertility -- notwithstanding the frequent ill effects from manipulation -- sometimes decidedly increases, and goes on increasing.

"Now, in the process of artificial fertilisation, pollen is as often taken by chance (as I know from my own experience) from the anthers of another flower -- as from the anthers of the flower itself which is to be fertilised. A cross between two flowers, though probably often on the same plant, would be thus effected.

"Moreover, whenever complicated experiments are in progress, so careful an observer as Gartner would have castrated his hybrids. This would have ensured in each generation a cross with pollen from a distinct flower -- either from the same plant or from another plant of the same hybrid nature.

"And thus, the strange fact of an increase of fertility in the successive generations of artificially fertilised hybrids -- in contrast with those spontaneously self-fertilised -- may, as I believe, be accounted for by too close interbreeding having been avoided."

If I understand correctly, it is not so certain that cross-breeding produces sterility. Depending on whether one speaks of a species or a variety -- and this apparently is open to definition -- it can be either one way or the other.

How's that for being specific?

Robby

Malryn
October 2, 2006 - 04:50 am

That's what I call "a hedge".

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
October 11, 2006 - 03:44 am
Should we discontinue this discussion?

Robby

Bubble
October 11, 2006 - 03:52 am
Robby, don't you ever consider that!!!!

I am still with house guest and very little time for myself. Another week and I can be active again and get back to routine of dropping here a few times a day...

I am sick of all those festivals and holidays! Bubble

Scrawler
October 11, 2006 - 10:49 am
I'm still here, but I'm lurking and learning.

Adrbri
October 11, 2006 - 05:36 pm
Me too. Please don't stop.

Brian

robert b. iadeluca
October 11, 2006 - 06:22 pm
I thought everyone had found it too dry and serious and had lost interest. OK - I'll continue.

Once we get this "scientific" stuff under our belt, we can move onto his next book, "The Descent of Man," which I know will interest everyone. But we will understand it better having read this book.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 12, 2006 - 02:58 am
On the Imperfection of the Geological Record

robert b. iadeluca
October 12, 2006 - 03:07 am
"In the sixth chapter I enumerated the chief objections which might be justly urged against the views maintained in this volume.

"Most of them have now been discussed. One -- namely the distinctness of specific forms -- and their not being blended together by innumerable transitional links, is a very obvious difficulty.

"I assigned reasons why such links do not commonly occur at the present day under the circumstances apparently most favourable for their presence -- namely, on an extensive and continuous area with graduated physical conditions.

"I endeavoured to show, that the life of each species depends in a more important manner on the presence of other already defined organic forms, than on climate. Therefore, that the really governing conditions of life do not graduate away quite insensibly like heat or moisture.

"I endeavoured, also, to show that intermediate varieties -- from existing in lesser numbers than the forms which they connect -- will generally be beaten out and exterminated during the course of further modification and improvement.

"The main cause, however, of innumerable intermediate links not now occurring everywhere throughout nature, depends on the very process of natural selection, through which new varieties continually take the places of and supplant their parent-forms.

"But just in proportion as this process of extermination has acted on an enormous scale, so must the number of intermediate varieties, which have formerly existed, be truly enormous.

"Why then is not every geological formation and every stratum full of such intermediate links? Geology assuredly does not reveal any such finely-graduated organic chain.

"This, perhaps, is the most obvious and serious objection which can be urged against the theory. The explanation lies, as I believe, in the extreme imperfection of the geological record."

Darwin is telling us, as I understand it, that there might very well have been intermediate links between changes of species but that we have not been able to find them in our geological examinations. This does not mean, of course, that they did not exist.

Robby

Bubble
October 12, 2006 - 03:57 am
Just like Lucy's little girl found in Ethiopia, middle way between tree dwelling and upright walking...

Mallylee
October 13, 2006 - 01:31 am
Therefore, that the really governing conditions of life do not graduate away quite insensibly like heat or moisture.

I feel that the lack of graduation and the presence of definition in living species is what makes it so tempting to believe that there is an intention at work to create them.

I should say 'apparent' lack of graduation, because now we know that the DNA codes of all the species is amazingly graduated within small parameters

Bubble
October 13, 2006 - 03:29 am
Interesting

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061012/sc_nm/science_embryos_dc_2

Bubble
October 13, 2006 - 03:31 am
Look at that!

Prehistoric Mouse

robert b. iadeluca
October 13, 2006 - 04:01 am
Fascinating stuff, Bubble, especially the dividing cells which are a half billion years old. And it helps us to understand how painstaking the scientists have to be.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 13, 2006 - 04:10 am
"In the first place, it should always be borne in mind what sort of intermediate forms must, on the theory, have formerly existed.

"I have found it difficult, when looking at any two species, to avoid picturing to myself forms directly intermediate between them.

"But this is a wholly false view. We should always look for forms intermediate between each species and a common but unknown progenitor. And the progenitor will generally have differed in some respects from all its modified descendants.

"To give a simple illustration -- the fantail and pouter pigeons are both descended from the rock-pigeon. If we possessed all the intermediate varieties which have ever existed, we should have an extremely close series between both and the rock-pigeon.

"But we should have no varieties directly intermediate between the fantail and pouter. None, for instance, combining a tail somewhat expanded with a crop somewhat enlarged, the characteristic features of these two breeds.

"These two breeds, moreover, have become so much modified -- that, if we had no historical or indirect evidence regarding their origin -- it would not have been possible to have determined -- from a mere comparison of their structure with that of the rock-pigeon, C. livia -- whether they had descended from this species or from some allied form, such as C. aenas.

"So, with natural species, if we look to forms very distinct -- for instance to the horse and tapir -- we have no reason to suppose that links directly intermediate between them ever existed, but between each and an unknown common parent.

"The common parent will have had in its whole organisation much general resemblance to the tapir and to the horse -- but in some points of structure may have differed considerably from both, even perhaps more than they differ from each other.

"Hence, in all such cases, we should be unable to recognise the parent-form of any two or more species, even if we closely compared the structure of the parent with that of its modified descendants, unless at the same time we had a nearly perfect chain of the intermediate links."

If I catch this, Darwin is telling us that unless we find intermediate forms in geologic fossils, all that we have left to us is guessing.

Robby

Mallylee
October 13, 2006 - 02:49 pm
Bubble that is a wonderful news story about the millions of years old embryos. Thanks for posting it.

robert b. iadeluca
October 15, 2006 - 04:05 am
"It is just possible by theory, that one of two living forms might have descended from the other.

"For instance, a horse from a tapir. In this case direct intermediate links will have existed between them.

"But such a case would imply that one form had remained for a very long period unaltered, whilst its descendants had undergone a vast amount of change. The principle of competition between organism and organism, between child and parent, will render this a very rare event. In all cases the new and improved forms of life tend to supplant the old and unimproved forms.

"By the theory of natural selection all living species have been connected with the parent-species of each genus -- by differences not greater than we see between the natural and domestic varieties of the same species at the present day.

"These parent-species, now generally extinct, have in their turn been similarly connected with more ancient forms -- and so on backwards, always converging to the common ancestor of each great class. So that the number of intermediate and transitional links -- between all living and extinct species -- must have been inconceivably great.

"But assuredly, if this theory be true, such have lived upon the earth."

If I understand this correctly, there has always been a connection from species to variety to variety to variety to species, and so on. There was no such thing as a sudden creation of a variety.

Robby

Mallylee
October 15, 2006 - 10:42 pm
"But assuredly, if this theory be true, such have lived upon the earth."

That sentence is poetry. Darwin sounds as if he had a reverence for nature, and the grandeur of evolutionary change.

I suppose he knew little about the vast differences between rates of evolutionary change between say, vertebrates and viruses.

robert b. iadeluca
October 16, 2006 - 04:39 am
Darwin was a naturalist and Durant was a historian but those of us partcipating have often commented on their poetic language.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 16, 2006 - 05:29 am
On the Lapse of Time, as inferred from the rate of Deposition and extent of Denudation

robert b. iadeluca
October 16, 2006 - 05:36 am
"Independently of our not finding fossil remains of such infinitely numerous connecting links, it may be objected that time cannot have sufficed for so great an amount of organic change -- all changes having been effected slowly.

"It is hardly possible for me to recall to the reader who is not a practical geologist, the facts leading the mind feebly to comprehend the lapse of time.

"He who can read Sir Charles Lyell's grand work on the Principles of Geology -- which the future historian will recognise as having produced a revolution in natural science, and yet does not admit how vast have been the past periods of time -- may at once close this volume.

"Not that it suffices to study the Principles of Geology -- or to read special treatises by different observers on separate formations, and to mark how each author attempts -- to give an inadequate idea of the duration of each formation, or even of each stratum.

"We can best gain some idea of past time by knowing the agencies at work, and learning how deeply the surface of the land has been denuded, and how much sediment has been deposited.

"As Lyell has well remarked, the extent and thickness of our sedimentary formations are the result and the measure of the denudation which the earth's crust has elsewhere undergone. Therefore a man should examine for himself the great piles of superimposed strata -- and watch the rivulets bringing down mud -- and the waves wearing away the sea-cliffs -- in order to comprehend something about the duration of past time, the monuments of which we see all around us."

Duant is asking us to pause, think deeply, and realize how much time - time - time - time has gone on before us -- the years, the centuries, the thousands of years, the millions of years, the hundreds of millions of years -- and the ever so gradual effect this has had on the earth -- drop by drop, inch by inch, second by second. Visiting subterranean caverns help us to get a feeling of this.

Robby

Bubble
October 16, 2006 - 07:18 am
The duration of our generation is as a grain of sand in front of all that elapsed time.

Bubble
October 17, 2006 - 11:42 am
Here is an interesting find:

Fossils of Dwarf Water Buffalo

Bubble
October 17, 2006 - 12:08 pm
Something you never knew...

evolutionary trade-off

Adrbri
October 17, 2006 - 07:48 pm
Going back to the discussion on new species, our group might be interested to look
at the report by the BBC on Dr Curry's thesis on "Whither Mankind", though I am not
sure he called it that.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6057734.stm

Lurker Brian.

Mallylee
October 18, 2006 - 01:37 am
Ardbri, this hypothesis seems to stem from extrapolation from too few facts, Where is global warming? Where is increasing affluence among nearly all social classes in liberal democracies? Where the democratising influence of the Internet?

There is something to be said for a Nietschean vision of the future, but how can it be reconciled with democratic morality? It can't . It's quite worrying that humanity should lose its control over ancient ideas of justice. We already exploit animals, even primates, who are in actual fact, people. If this scenario depicted on your link is true, it should be resisted. At the least , we can fight back.

robert b. iadeluca
October 18, 2006 - 03:20 am
Brian:-After completing this seminal work, "Origin of Species," we will probably move on to Darwin's "The Descent of Man," which is, in effect, whither mankind.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 18, 2006 - 03:44 am
"It is good to wander along the coast, when formed of moderately hard rocks, and mark the process of degradation.

"The tides in most cases reach the cliffs only for a short time twice a day, and the waves eat into them only when they are charged with sand or pebbles; for there is good evidence that pure water effects nothing in wearing away rock.

"At last the base of the cliff is undermined, huge fragments fall down, and these, remaining fixed, have to be worn away atom by atom, until after being reduced in size they can be rolled about by the waves, and then they are more quickly ground into pebbles, sand, or mud.

"But how often do we see along the bases of retreating cliffs rounded boulders, all thickly clothed by marine productions, showing how little they are abraded and how seldom they are rolled about! Moreover, if we follow for a few miles any line of rocky cliff, which is undergoing degradation, we find that it is only here and there, along a short length or round a promontory, that the cliffs are at the present time suffering.

"The appearance of the surface and the vegetation show that elsewhere years have elapsed since the waters washed their base.

"We have, however, recently learnt from the observations of Ramsay, in the van of many excellent observers- of Jukes, Geikie, Croll, and others, that subaerial degradation is a much more important agency than coast-action, or the power of the waves.

"The whole surface of the land is exposed to the chemical action of the air and of the rain-water with its dissolved carbolic acid, and in colder countries to frost. The disintegrated matter is carried down even gentle slopes during heavy rain, and to a greater extent than might be supposed, especially in arid districts, by the wind.

"It is then transported by the streams and rivers, which when rapid deepen their channels, and triturate the fragments. On a rainy day, even in a gently undulating country, we see the effects of subaerial degradation in the muddy rills which flow down every slope.

"Messrs. Ramsay and Whitaker have shown, and the observation is a most striking one, that the great lines of escarpment in the Wealden district and those ranging across England, which formerly were looked at as ancient sea-coasts, cannot have been thus formed, for each line is composed of one and the same formation, whilst our sea-cliffs are everywhere formed by the intersection of various formations.

"This being the case, we are compelled to admit that the escarpments owe their origin in chief part to the rocks of which they are composed having resisted subaerial denudation better than the surrounding surface; this surface consequently has been gradually lowered, with the lines of harder rock left projecting.

"Nothing impresses the mind with the vast duration of time, according to our ideas of time, more forcibly than the conviction thus gained that subaerial agencies which apparently have so little power, and which seem to work so slowly, have produced great results."

Time - time - time. Atom by atom by atom. Aren't you beginning to feel very small? Does 5,000 years ago seem historical?

Robby

Bubble
October 18, 2006 - 06:20 am
According to the Hebrew calendar, we started year 5767 last month.

Detour
October 18, 2006 - 04:31 pm
Behe makes better sense...

robert b. iadeluca
October 18, 2006 - 05:29 pm
"When thus impressed with the slow rate at which the land is worn away through subaerial and littoral action, it is good, in order to appreciate the past duration of time, to consider -- on the one hand, the masses of rock which have been removed over many extensive areas -- and on the other hand the thickness of our sedimentary formations.

"I remember having been much struck when viewing volcanic islands, which have been worn by the waves and pared all round into perpendicular cliffs of one or two thousand feet in height. The gentle slope of the lava-streams, due to their formerly liquid state, showed at a glance how far the hard, rocky beds had once extended into the open ocean.

"The same story is told still more plainly by faults -- those great cracks along which the strata have been upheaved on one side, or thrown down on the other, to the height or depth of thousands of feet. For since the crust cracked, and it makes no great difference whether the upheaval was sudden, or, as most geologists now believe, was slow and effected by many starts, the surface of the land has been so completely planed down that no trace of these vast dislocations is externally visible.

"The Craven fault, for instance, extends for upwards of 30 miles, and along this line the vertical displacement of the strata varies from 600 to 3000 feet.

"Professor Ramsay has published an account of a downthrow in Anglesea of 2300 feet. And he informs me that he fully believes that there is one in Merionethshire of 12,000 feet.

"Yet in these cases there is nothing on the surface of the land to show such prodigious movements; the pile of rocks on either side of the crack having been smoothly swept away."

Robby

Mallylee
October 19, 2006 - 01:31 am
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/story/0,,1925715,00.html

robert b. iadeluca
October 19, 2006 - 03:42 am
That is fantastic, Mallylee!!

Obviously more and more people are asking about evolution. Here in Senior Net we have not let ourselves get behind time.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 19, 2006 - 04:38 am
"On the other hand, in all parts of the world the piles of sedimentary strata are of wonderful thickness.

"In the Cordillera I estimated one mass of conglomerate at ten thousand feet; and although conglomerates have probably been accumulated at a quicker rate than finer sediments, yet from being formed of worn and rounded pebbles, each of which bears the stamp of time, they are good to show how slowly the mass must have been heaped together.

"Professor Ramsay has given me the maximum thickness, from actual measurement in most cases, of the successive formations in different parts of Great Britain; and this is the result:-

Palaeozoic strata (not including igneous beds): 57,154 feet Secondary strata: 13,190 feet Tertiary strata: 2,249 feet

-making altogether 72,584 feet; that is, very nearly thirteen and three-quarters British miles.

"Some of the formations, which are represented in England by thin beds, are thousands of feet in thickness on the Continent. Moreover, between each successive formation, we have, in the opinion of most geologists, blank periods of enormous length.

"So that the lofty pile of sedimentary rocks in Britain gives but an inadequate idea of the time which has elapsed during their accumulation. The consideration of these various facts impresses the mind almost in the same manner as does the vain endeavour to grapple with the idea of eternity."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 19, 2006 - 04:40 am
This evening (Thursday) I will be leaving for the Senior Net Conference in Washington, DC, and will be returning Sunday afternoon.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 23, 2006 - 04:24 am
I have just returned from a wonderful SN Anniversary Conference and had the pleasure of meeting Mippy, one of our participants here. It's always nice to put a face to a name.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
October 23, 2006 - 04:26 am
On the Poorness of Palaeontological Collections

robert b. iadeluca
October 23, 2006 - 04:36 am
"Now let us turn to our richest geological museums, and what a paltry display we behold!

"That our collections are imperfect is admitted by every one. The remark of that admirable palaeontologist, Edward Forbes, should never be forgotten -- namely, that very many fossil species are known and named from single and often broken specimens, or from a few specimens collected on some one spot.

"Only a small portion of the surface of the earth has been geologically explored, and no part with sufficient care, as the important discoveries made every year in Europe prove.

"No organism wholly soft can be preserved. Shells and bones decay and disappear when left on the bottom of the sea, where sediment is not accumulating.

"We probably take a quite erroneous view, when we assume that sediment is being deposited over nearly the whole bed of the sea, at a rate sufficiently quick to embed and preserve fossil remains. Throughout an enormously large proportion of the ocean, the bright blue tint of the water bespeaks its purity.

"The many cases on record of a formation conformably covered -- after an immense interval of time -- by another and later formation, without the underlying bed having suffered in the interval any wear and tear, seem explicable only on the view of the bottom of the sea not rarely lying for ages in an unaltered condition.

"The remains which do become embedded -- if in sand or gravel -- will, when the beds are upraised, generally be dissolved by the percolation of rain-water charged with carbolic acid.

"Some of the many kinds of animals which live on the beach between high and low water mark seem to be rarely preserved. For instance, the several species of the Chthamalinae (a sub-family of sessile cirripedes) coat the rocks all over the world in infinite numbers. They are all strictly littoral, with the exception of a single Mediterranean species, which inhabits deep water, and this has been found fossil in Sicily.

"Not one other species has hitherto been found in any tertiary formation. Yet it is known that the genus Chthamalus existed during the Chalk period.

"Lastly, many great deposits requiring a vast length of time for their accumulation, are entirely destitute of organic remains, without our being able to assign any reason.

"One of the most striking instances is that of the Flysch formation, which consists of shale and sandstone -- several thousand, occasionally even six thousand feet in thickness -- and extending for at least 300 miles from Vienna to Switzerland.

"Although this great mass has been most carefully searched, no fossils, except a few vegetable remains, have been found."

What I get from this is that, when you get right down to it, we know very little about the past.

Robby

Mallylee
October 25, 2006 - 11:31 am
There is a really useful diagram , about halfway down the scroll of

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/macroevolution.html

explains the dichotomy between micro-evolution and macro-evolution (speciation) by showing causes of micro, and macro evolution respectively

Bubble
October 26, 2006 - 04:08 am
Over Teaching of Evolution

robert b. iadeluca
November 4, 2006 - 05:32 am
November 3, 2006 Study Sees ‘Global Collapse’ of Fish Species By CORNELIA DEAN

If fishing around the world continues at its present pace, more and more species will vanish, marine ecosystems will unravel and there will be “global collapse” of all species currently fished, possibly as soon as midcentury, fisheries experts and ecologists are predicting.

The scientists, who report their findings today in the journal Science, say it is not too late to turn the situation around. As long as marine ecosystems are still biologically diverse, they can recover quickly once overfishing and other threats are reduced, the researchers say.

But improvements must come quickly, said Boris Worm of Dalhousie University in Nova Scotia, who led the work. Otherwise, he said, “we are seeing the bottom of the barrel.”

“When humans get into trouble they are quick to change their ways,” he continued. “We still have rhinos and tigers and elephants because we saw a clear trend that was going down and we changed it. We have to do the same in the oceans.”

The report is one of many in recent years to identify severe environmental degradation in the world’s oceans and to predict catastrophic loss of fish species. But experts said it was unusual in its vision of widespread fishery collapse so close at hand.

The researchers drew their conclusion after analyzing dozens of studies, along with fishing data collected by the United Nations Food and Agricultural Organization and other sources. They acknowledge that much of what they are reporting amounts to correlation, rather than proven cause and effect. And the F.A.O. data have come under criticism from researchers who doubt the reliability of some nations’ reporting practices, Dr. Worm said.

Still, he said in an interview, “there is not a piece of evidence” that contradicts the dire conclusions.

Jane Lubchenco, a fisheries expert at Oregon State University who had no connection with the work, called the report “compelling.”

“It’s a meta analysis and there are challenges in interpreting those,” she said in an interview, referring to the technique of collective analysis of disparate studies. “But when you get the same patterns over and over and over, that tells you something.”

But Steve Murawski, chief scientist of the Fisheries Service of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, said the researchers’ prediction of a major global collapse “doesn’t gibe with trends that we see, especially in the United States.”

He said the Fisheries Service considered about 20 percent of the stocks it monitors to be overfished. “But 80 percent are not, and that trend has not changed substantially,” he said, adding that if anything, the fish situation in American waters was improving. But he conceded that the same cannot necessarily be said for stocks elsewhere, particularly in the developing world.

Mr. Murawski said the Bush administration was seeking to encourage international fishery groups to consider adopting measures that have been effective in American waters.

Twelve scientists from the United States, Canada, Sweden and Panama contributed to the work reported in Science today.

“We extracted all data on fish and invertebrate catches from 1950 to 2003 within all 64 large marine ecosystems worldwide,” they wrote. “Collectively, these areas produced 83 percent of global fisheries yields over the past 50 years.”

In an interview, Dr. Worm said, “We looked at absolutely everything — all the fish, shellfish, invertebrates, everything that people consume that comes from the ocean, all of it, globally.”

The researchers found that 29 percent of species had been fished so heavily or were so affected by pollution or habitat loss that they were down to 10 percent of previous levels, their definition of “collapse.”

This loss of biodiversity seems to leave marine ecosystems as a whole more vulnerable to overfishing and less able to recover from its effects, Dr. Worm said. It results in an acceleration of environmental decay, and further loss of fish.

Dr. Worm said he analyzed the data for the first time on his laptop while he was overseeing a roomful of students taking an exam. What he saw, he said, was “just a smooth line going down.” And when he extrapolated the data into the future “to see where it ends at 100 percent collapse, you arrive at 2048.”

“The hair stood up on the back of my neck and I said, ‘This cannot be true,’ ” he recalled. He said he ran the data through his computer again, then did the calculations by hand. The results were the same.

“I don’t have a crystal ball and I don’t know what the future will bring, but this is a clear trend,” he said. “There is an end in sight, and it is within our lifetimes.”

Dr. Worm said a number of steps could help turn things around.

Even something as simple as reducing the number of unwanted fish caught in nets set for other species would help, he said. Marine reserves would also help, he said, as would “doing away with horrendous overfishing where everyone agrees it’s a bad thing; or if we banned destructive fishing in the most sensitive habitats.”

Josh Reichert, who directs the environmental division of the Pew Charitable Trusts, called the report “a kind of warning bell” for people and economies that depend on fish.

But predicting a global fisheries collapse by 2048 “assumes we do nothing to fix this,” he said, “and shame on us if that were to be the case.”

Mallylee
November 6, 2006 - 03:03 am
It's good to read Boris Worm from Dalhousie University's optimistic opinion of human nature.The trouble in the case of collapsed marine ecosystems is that we dont have as much time to adapt to change as say, the working class during the industrial revolution(trade unions), or conservers of noble antiquities built during past affluence( these can be saved piece by piece)

It has to be now or never; if we wait until next year it could be too late. This is because there is little point in conserving say, cod, if the whole ecosystem is collapsing.

It has to be an international initiative. Perhaps the success of the animal rights charities in their international efforts may be a pointer to how public opinion/politicians can change cultures of apathy.

Scrawler
November 6, 2006 - 10:49 am
One way I participate in helping wildlife (including marine life) is to buy products from National Wildlife Federation. If you go to www.shopnwf.org the site will tell you what you can do to help.

It's a nice way to help the wildlife since I would have bought the products anyway.

Bubble
November 16, 2006 - 08:50 am
Clues to Neanderthals

Sunknow
November 18, 2006 - 09:44 pm
Since this seems to be a quiet time here, I wonder if some of you would be interested in an article that appeared in the Religious Section of our Local Tyler Paper. I tried to link to it there, but it was not posted online today. I found it at another (AP)site, if you are interested in reading the entire article. See link below.

Harvard Biologist Extends Olive Branch to Evangelicals

"Harvard biologist Edward O. Wilson might normally arouse suspicion among evangelicals, given his faith in science over Scripture.

But in his latest book, "The Creation, An Appeal to Save Life on Earth," the two-time Pulitzer Prize winner extends an olive branch to Christian believers in hopes of saving the Earth from the biggest mass extinction since the dinosaurs.

Wilson's book is the latest attempt to bridge the gap between evolutionary science and a literal interpretation of the Bible, a rift dating back to Charles Darwin's theory of natural selection.

"Pastor, we need your help. The Creation — living Nature — is in deep trouble," Wilson writes in this letter to an imaginary Southern Baptist pastor. "You might well ask at this point, Why me? Because religion and science are the two most powerful forces in the world today."

....................

Indeed, many evangelical leaders have rejected environmental efforts, arguing that it's important to stay focused on core social issues such as stopping abortion and opposing gay marriage.

But among the evangelical wing that has become more concerned about environmental issues in recent years, the reception has been enthusiastic. Calvin DeWitt, a professor of environmental studies at the University of Wisconsin and a founder of the Evangelical Environmental Network, said Wilson's book would restore the term "creation" to scientific discussion. (Others disagreed).

(Some statements in the article):

"From my vantage point, we are going to destroy half the species of plants and animals by the end of this century unless we can abate the destructive part of that activity," Wilson said from his home in Lexington, Mass.

"In the environmental community, we've been preaching to the choir on one side, and not presenting a very friendly face to the vast American religious audience on the other side.

"I thought it was just supremely logical that we could get together on middle ground, neutral ground."

The book appears to have found an audience. It made Amazon.com's top ten lists in religion and science, and Weil reports it has gone to a fourth printing.

............................

Wilson's fears of an impending ecological disaster are no isolated view. For example, a 1998 survey of 400 scientists commissioned by New York's American Museum of Natural History found most were convinced that the sixth great extinction of plants and animals on Earth was under way.

The root cause is human overpopulation, which leads to habitat loss, climate change, invasive species, pollution, and over-harvesting, Wilson writes."

http://www.christianpost.com/article/20061117/23505.htm

Sun

Mallylee
November 19, 2006 - 09:45 am
Thank you Sunknow. I hope the religious communities will be in time to save civilisation, and the many species that are threatened by our wasteful behaviour.

robert b. iadeluca
November 19, 2006 - 10:29 am
What I am planning to do, with the agreement of you folks, is to jump down to the latter chapter of "Origin of Species." Most of us, I believe, have gotten the gist of what Darwin has been explaing to us.

Once we finish the book we can move on to "Descent of Man" which I think all of us have been waiting for.

Robby

Scrawler
November 19, 2006 - 10:34 am
That sounds great to me, Robby but anything the group would like to do is fine.

Bubble
November 19, 2006 - 10:49 am
That's OK with me too. If need be, one can always complete the reading online, jumping over what is too tedious.

Mallylee
November 22, 2006 - 11:06 am
All right with me too Robby. I look forward to forthcoming attractions

robert b. iadeluca
November 22, 2006 - 04:57 pm
Mallylee:

I suppose that's better than looking backward to forthcoming attractions.

Robby

Bubble
November 23, 2006 - 12:22 am

Mallylee
November 23, 2006 - 09:33 am
My mind is boggling ,an interesting sensation

Oh! I bet that is a zen Koan

Bubble
November 24, 2006 - 01:30 am
Case Studies: Natural Selection of the Anolis Sagrei

http://mgbear.bol.ucla.edu/lizard.html

Evolutionary changes observed ...

Bubble
November 28, 2006 - 01:05 pm


Leap From Simple to Complex

robert b. iadeluca
November 28, 2006 - 08:59 pm
I am trying to get us going here again if I can find a moment.

Robby

Mallylee
November 29, 2006 - 05:10 am
Wow! Dunkleosteus http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/story/0,,1959461,00.html

Mallylee
November 29, 2006 - 05:15 am
Intelligent Design

Behe's idea that there is such a state of nature as irreducible complexity, citing the flagellum as an example, has been rubbished by the proven existence of a viable proto-flagellum that consists of only some (one?) of the components of the flagellum in Behe's example.

Darwin was meticulous in his detailed observations. The scientist who produced detailed evidence of the proto-flagellum won points over neglectful Behe

Mallylee
November 29, 2006 - 05:37 am
Here is a source for the rebuttal of Behe's 'irreducible complexity '.

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB200_1.html

Mallylee
December 5, 2006 - 05:30 am
Somebody told me , the other day, that there is a serious suggestion that dogs, having lived in conjunction with humans for so many centuries, or maybe, thousands of years, now transmit a gene or set of genes that make them feel affiliated to the human face, with no previous life experience or cultural transmission from their dams.

I wonder if small babies who have never been taught that dogs are to be avoided, similarly are attuned to love of dogs. It does seem so when I am out with my dogs.

Bubble
December 11, 2006 - 02:09 pm
Interesting article

Recent Evolution

Mallylee
December 11, 2006 - 03:30 pm
Very interesting that a new mutation in humans, who after all dont reproduce themselves very rapidly, should evolve in such a brief time. I can that the advantage of being able to metabolise lactose was that young children who could do so would be better nourished and able to store up fat to give them the advantage over other children who would not be well nourished enough to resist food shortages, the cold climate and infections. Because the children with the lactose tolerant mutation survived until they became parents, their babies would be likely to carry the mutation too.

Thanks for that Bubble

Bubble
December 13, 2006 - 02:13 am
Another interesting article:

Deciphering DNA’s Deep Secrets

"In a study released in May, scientists at the Broad Institute scanned 20 million “letters” of genetic sequence from each of the human, chimpanzee, gorilla and macaque monkey genomes. Based on DNA differences, the researchers speculated that millions of years after an initial evolutionary split between human ancestors and chimp ancestors, the two lineages might have interbred again before diverging for good." WOW!

GingerWright
December 13, 2006 - 07:06 am
Gee he is also researching what causes cancer. Very interest link. Thanks Bubble

Mallylee
December 13, 2006 - 12:06 pm
I was interested in the article Bubbles. I also read some of the interesting links about cancer studies

Bubble
December 21, 2006 - 02:42 am
I can only say WOW!
I wonder if humans have that ability and forgot how???
Is that science-fiction?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061220/ap_on_sc/virgin_dragon

Mallylee
December 21, 2006 - 05:04 pm
Oh Wow!! I bet these babies are sweet and cuddly. What a nice story Bubble thanks

Bubble
December 23, 2006 - 01:57 am
So we have a new member in the family of life

New Microbe

Mallylee
December 23, 2006 - 03:50 am
Thanks for your postings here Bubble. I do like your selections, this one included. I find it very interesting that scientists although they will be forming a new paradigm of what constitutes 'life' do see to be assuming that living forms reproduce independently, unlike viruses which can reproduce only through the medium of some other life form.

Certianly these bacteria are not 'cuddly' but just the same I feel very slightly consoled that even after climate change has devasted this planet's living forms, there will remain living things in abundance

Bubble
December 23, 2006 - 03:59 am
It seems that life will never be totally erased. It might need to be redefined and living organisms would probably be totally different to what we, as humans, consider to be life.

Bubble
December 26, 2006 - 12:48 am
Natural selection: a mix of truth and lies

Bubble
December 26, 2006 - 12:57 am
striking example of how evolution tinkers with bodies

Mallylee
December 26, 2006 - 03:04 am
I wish I could understand the article about deception as an evolved strategy, but I could understand only as far as the bit about how deceptions may use more energy than the individual can afford to spend. Keeping up with the Jones's is an example?

hats
December 31, 2006 - 01:16 am
I would like to turn the question around. Why are we so comfortable in believing that other people are deceiving us? Remember, mistakenly, people also believed that Jesus deceived the public.

Human nature likes to believe that it's being deceived. Then, we can always feel like the person victimized or feel like the martyred one. I hope this has something to do with Evolution. Excuse me for just butting in.

Mallylee
December 31, 2006 - 04:02 am
Hats what a coincidence! I have only yesterday read an article in the Guardian about how people in Britain have become much more mistrustful for instance of such people as doctors, headmasters, members of parliament, with fine tuning such as having more trust for local members of parlaiment than for members of the government.

Crime is more widely reported than it was, and police can no longer beat up a petty criminal on the spot: we feel less safe.We no longer know our neighbours as once we did when we belonged to the same work force as our immediate neighbours, or the same church

hats
December 31, 2006 - 05:46 am
Yes, to deceive or to be deceived is very sad. Mallylee, thanks for mentioning the article.

Bubble
January 15, 2007 - 05:25 am
I believe I found the missing link between animal and civilized man. It is us. -Konrad Lorenz, ethologist, Nobel laureate (1903-1989)

robert b. iadeluca
January 15, 2007 - 05:41 am
Bubble:-That's great! I believe it would be apropos in SofC.

Robby

Bubble
January 21, 2007 - 02:38 am
Anyone read this?

Evolution versus Creation A Very Controversial E-Book! But a Must Read now completely Free http://www.thegoddrivenchurch.com/

Mallylee
January 22, 2007 - 03:11 am
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/story/0,,1988663,00.html

The relevance to Darwin, and the struggle for existence, is that the surmise is that these slenderly -built early incomers from Africa chose to settle in the cold climate because there were no muscular Neanderthals to fight them, and the African incomers could manage because of their technology

Bubble
January 22, 2007 - 04:17 am
Thanks Mallylee. I wish I could visit those sites. It must be thrilling to make such discoveries.

Bubble
February 11, 2007 - 10:44 am
Exhibition at the American Museum of Natural History.

Meet Our Relatives

Bubble
February 25, 2007 - 02:02 am
Hunting chimps

Interesting article: Hunting chimps may change view of human evolution

Mallylee
February 25, 2007 - 03:43 am
Interesting story, Bubble. If chimpanzees are evolved by natural selection to hunt with pointed sticks, and it is in fact only the females who do it, does this imply that the hunting behaviour genes are sex-linked?

Pruetz noted that male chimps never used the spears. She believes the males use their greater strength and size to grab food and kill prey more easily, so the females must come up with other methods.

Bubble
February 25, 2007 - 10:08 am
I believe feeding the family and looking to the well being of the youngs is more of a female behavior. A male ape looking for food would first help himself before bringing back some, don't you think?

Mallylee
February 26, 2007 - 03:10 pm
I think so, Bubble.

robert b. iadeluca
March 9, 2007 - 03:51 pm
My personal schedule has not allowed me to continue to be active in discussing "Origin of Species." I do remember, however, that the interest was great and that the majority of participants had understood quite well what Darwin was telling us. I do remember, also, that some participants were desirous of moving on to Darwin's book "Descent of Man" where it was less technical.

With everyone's permission, I am calling a "hiatus" of this discussion group until April 1st when we will quickly end "Origin of Species" and quickly move on to "Descent of Man." See you then. And when you come, bring friends with you!!

Robby

We'll keep this discussion open for posts.

Bubble
March 10, 2007 - 01:37 am

Mallylee
March 12, 2007 - 12:26 pm
I look forward to The Descent of Man.There will be more material in it for dicussion I think.

robert b. iadeluca
March 31, 2007 - 04:40 am
Due to my heavy personal schedule I have not been able to continue with Origin of Species. I am bringing it to a close. However, we covered the majority of the chapters and I do believe that all of us learned considerably from it.

It is my plan to open Darwin's "Descent of Man" on May 1st. Talk it up among your friends.

Robby

Marjorie
March 31, 2007 - 04:13 pm
This discussion is now Read Only and will be archived in a few days.